Interview: Jack Self, Architect & Writer

Interviews - 22 Nov 2016 - Share

London-based architect and writer Jack Self

is Founder and Director of the REAL
foundation, an organisation concerned with
alternative forms of development, property
and ownership. Self is also Editor-in-Chief of
the Real Review, the foundations quarterly
publication. Notably becoming the youngest
person to take on the prestigious role, this
year, the recent Architectural Association
graduate curated the British Pavilion at the
Venice Architecture Biennale, following the
likes of Zaha Hadid, Norman Foster and
Richard Rogers. As well as being a
Contributing Editor for the Architectural
Review, his writing has appeared in
publications like The Guardian, 032c, New
Philosopher and BBC News. His rst book,
Real Estates: Life Without Debt, now in its
second run, brings together a thoughtful
collection of essays from diverse contributors
including Pier Vittorio Aureli, Roberta
Marcaccio and Brett Steele. With the
imminent release of the Real Reviews
second issue, Something Curated met up
with Self at his east London studio to learn
more about the REAL foundation, his
thoughts on architectures relationship with
capitalism, and his plans for the future.
Something Curated: What was your
journey into this eld?

Jack Self: Every architect creates their own

myth about how they would play with Lego or
how they would draw sketches as a child and
that from a very early age they knew that they
wanted to be an architect. Its quite
disingenuous to present yourself that way. In
my case, I stumbled into architecture. It was
presented to me by a family friend as being
the most holistic profession. If you want to
study law, then you have to be a lawyer. If you
want to study medicine, you have to be a
doctor, but if you go and study architecture
almost everything in the world appears to be
relevant. You can go and study 15th century
Italian fortications or you can go and study
how owers unfold and see how that might
be relevant to new structural forms. Theres a
huge variation within it. Not knowing what I
wanted to do as a teenager, I thought this
would be a good way forward.

Of course, architecture, when I started

studying it in the mid-2000s, was very
dierent from the world we live in today. It
was a time when there was a huge amount of
development going on and very little critical
reection on what this was doing to the world
or to society. It wasnt until I became very
involved rst in the student protest of 2010-
2011 and then the Occupy movement that I
began to think that architecture might have a
more central role in the way in which society
is structured than I had thought previously. I
went away and did a masters in philosophy
majoring in neoliberal economic theory.
Actually, its a lot more interesting than it
sounds. What I learned from this was,
architecture, and space generally, are hugely
inuential in the way that we relate to each
other and the world, much more so than I
thought. For example, we discussed the
circular table. I do believe my parents
divorced because we had a circular dining
room table. The head of the table is both
literally and metaphorically the head of the
table. When you sit at a circular table, it
destroys those hierarchies.

You could equally point at something like the

history of the bed. In the 1950s, it was very
common for couples to share single beds.
Now, that would be considered very unusual.
In a way, the politics of what you might call
the matrimonial double bed becomes integral
to how we think we should relate to other
people. As soon as you begin to open that up,
and particularly for me in the home, as soon
as you begin to explore the home as a site of
experimental relationships, it opens up the
world of architecture in a completely
dierent way. Suddenly you realise all sorts
of things which are about power relations and
their spatial outputs. Weve just published an
article in The Real Review about the
algorithm of Uber and how that changes the
city and how that changes the people working
for it. For me, that is a form of architecture. I
dont know if that explains how I got into the
eld.

SC: Could you talk about the REAL

foundation, the ethos and narrative
behind the organisation, and how it came
into being?

JS: The REAL foundation came out of a huge

frustration that architects are extremely good
at thinking of many things as design
problems. They think of technology, of
environmental conditions, of historical and
social conditions, preservation, urban
contexts, demographics, geography, geology,
structure, but they do not on the whole
consider the company and the architectural
rm itself as a form of design problem. The
architectural rm since the 1950s has been at
the avant-garde of corporate structures. For
example, the unpaid internship was originally
an architectural concept, which came from
the history of apprenticeships, but very
quickly it was adopted by other corporations
and used in dierent ways. It seems strange
to me that the architectural rm as a
structure had not been reconsidered in recent
times.

We were supposed to just assume this

structure. As an architect, you are eectively
part of a service profession. You have to wait
for someone to come to you. There is no
possibility for self-initiated direction. For me,
who feels that certain types of social and
political arguments are very important to
promote actively this was not an acceptable
model. Instead, what we have done is created
an architectural institute or a cultural
foundation which also will start to do
architecture. What that means is that
whether you are doing a magazine or a book
or an exhibition or a building, they are all
forms of a cultural and social experiment.

SC: Tell us about the concept behind the

Real Review, and how you envisioned it as
being dierent from other architecture
publications.

JS: The Real Review originally came out of

the fact that I used to be the reviews editor
for The Architectural Review magazine, and
that post was then closed. There is now no
English language review of books about
architecture, but it comes at a time when
there is not only a popular interest in
architecture but more architectural books are
being published than ever before. Very
quickly, Real Review changed its tact slightly
to become really a review of what it means to
live today. In fact, we use the format of the
review, which is not used by almost any other
magazine; what makes the review so dierent
is it looks back in order to look forward. Its
not about creating opinions which sit in
isolation on the web server somewhere. Its
about using the material reality that we nd
ourselves in to make a proposition for the
future. In that sense, the Real Review is
unlike any other architecture magazine as
well because it is aimed at a general
audience. It is the UKs only general audience
architectural magazine.

SC: Congratulations on co-curating the

British Pavilion at the Venice Architecture
Biennale this year. Could you tell us about
how the opportunity came about and how
you approached the project?

JS: Britain is almost unique within the

Biennale structure as being one of the few
countries to hold an open competition to nd
a curator of the Pavilion. Most countries will
appoint a curator, which means its a question
of nepotism, being involved in the right
networks, and so on. In Britain, we have a
very strong sense of fairness, I think. It began
as a completely open competition, and then
we were shortlisted to a group of four. My
anticipation was, because the previous
architects who had done it were people like
Zaha Hadid and Norman Foster, Richard
Rogers, theyre huge practices, very famous
people, that we were perhaps included as the
kind of young group at the end that might be
interesting to have involved as part of the
diversity of the process but actually had no
chance of winning. To win it was an
extremely unusual thing. Im the youngest
curator of the Pavilion, ever.

Within that, we were asked to respond to

Chilean architect Alejandro Aravenas brief,
which was, The frontline of architecture.
As a military metaphor, I nd this very
confusing, but in a way, if we think about
what the frontline of British architecture
might be, its unquestionably the housing
crisis. What we did, instead of looking at the
housing crisis as purely a numbers game and
saying, Well, we need to build more
houses, we turned it completely on its head
and said, What happens if we start to think
about space through the lens of time? Its the
rst exhibition ever to be curated through
time spent in the home, so there are ve new
models for life and ve time periods
associated with them: hours, days, months,
years and decades.

The power of this is to say if you look at a city

as a static moment in time the occupancy and
overcrowding become very problematic. If
you look at it as a breathing organism, in
which people are coming into it and leaving
on a daily basis, you begin to look at the
dimension of time. It gives a completely
dierent reading. For example, if it were very
easy for us to live in the city, if it were as easy
for us to live permanently in the city as it
were to hire an Airbnb or a hotel and it were
as cheap, we might nd that we prefer to
spend six days a week in the country side and
one day a week in the city. These questions
about having empty homes in Scotland and
not enough homes in London suddenly
change very rapidly.

SC: Can you tell us about what you are

currently working on?
JS: The REAL foundation has a wide range of
projects that we consider all to be pursuing
the same questions at dierent scales. They
range from actual architectural projects we
have a scheme to design new forms of
ownership and new ways of nancing
housing in the UK, through to more
traditional architectural projects like single
apartments. The majority of our work is in
the cultural sphere, which includes
exhibitions in London and in Europe and new
publications. We are just about to publish
another book we produced and of course the
magazine as well as lectures and events.

SC: How would you describe your

professional role?

JS: My bio on my website is Jack Self is an

architect and a writer. Personally, aside from
the work I do with the REAL foundation, I
write quite extensively. Writing to me is very
important for two reasons. One is that we
think we know what we think but often we
dont know what we think until we say it out
loud. Its not until you get into an argument
or a discussion that you actually realise
sometimes that you hold beliefs you didnt
know you had. Writing is very useful, for me
personally, to help me understand what it is I
believe. Its also very important for
promoting alternative ways of thinking about
conditions and situations and therefore
pursuing a certain type of ideological and
cultural argument.

SC: Could you talk about the process of

editing Real Estates: Life Without Debt
what motivated the project and how did
you go about selecting contributors?

JS: I wrote for it, I was the editor and its

eectively my book. It was co-edited with a
colleague. Real Estates is a book which
centres around an architectural project which
asks a very simple question: Is it possible to
build social housing at London Bridge? At the
very epicenter of the city? What are the
conditions that would make that possible?
As I went on to explore home economics and
the British Pavilion this year, this was the rst
project, begun in 2012, which looked at the
role of time in the way in which we design.
What it used was a very long term nancing
mechanism in order to reduce the cost of rent
and it was a project for a high rise skyscraper
in the City of London. It was gold plated
because the value of gold rises over time.
Although the initial cost is quite high, it also
allows you to pursue social projects and
programmes and fund them through the
rising value of the gold itself.

That was also a very important project in

understanding the value of materials in
architecture. The valuation of the property
uctuates with the commodities market. For
the great Modernists, the expression was,
Form follows function. In this case, the
building was called the Ingot, and its form
following nance. The exact dimensions of
the building are a perfect extrusion of the
nancial forces underpinning the structure.
The book itself was then a series of essays
that were commissioned either to sell out the
core themes that surround this project or to
respond to the project itself. I used it as an
opportunity. I think often when we are
reading things by people that we admire very
much, we feel a strong sense of separation
from them.

2011-2012, when I started doing the book, I

had been on Twitter for a couple of years. I
had recently been involved with the Occupy
movement. I had seen the power of social
media to create a at hierarchy between
people that I couldnt imagine previously
communicating with. I took this as a strong
sign that all it takes is to reach out to these
people. Most peoples email addresses are
available online these days. I was very
selective about choosing a group of people I
admired enormously, and I simply got in
touch with them, which I think is a general
life lesson that if you feel inspired by
someones work you can reach out to them.

SC: Do you feel that the relationship

between architecture and capitalism is a
constructive one?

JS: Well, capital is amoral. It doesnt have any

real desires. If its protable to make solar
panels, it will make solar panels. If its
protable to run coal-powered stations, it will
make coal stations. It will do whatever
creates the most prot. Within that,
architecture is an agent of capitalism, so it
can be used for both good and evil. We have a
long history of both, ranging from Trump
Tower to the amazing history of British social
housing projects. A question that I do
sometimes get asked is, Are you a political
architect? For me, architecture has no
political qualities in and of itself. It is that I
am a politically engaged citizen who is also
an architect. I think in that sense we all use
our own careers and our own elds and
disciplines to pursue the ideas that are
important to us. Thats what I would say.

I think were at a moment now which is very

precarious and dangerous for the relationship
between capitalism and global society. The
next four or ve years are likely to be some of
the most unstable weve seen since the end of
WWII. Within that context, I think whats
important about architecture is no matter
how bad a situation an architect is given, no
matter how unkind a client or how small a
budget, we always have to make a proposition
for how we can make the world a better place
and how we can live better within that. I think
thats a very powerful message for me in
terms of what the world of capitalism and
architecture might be, which is no matter
how bad things get, we must always be
thinking of how we can improve it, how we
can make a proposition or proposal.

SC: Could you tell us about a project that

you are most proud of?

JS: The Ingot, which I already spoke about.

SC: What do you think are the problems

architecture needs to solve in London
currently?

JS: I think the idea of solving a problem is

already a very tricky way to imagine it. We
cant ever solve problems in society. You cant
solve poverty, for example. As long as we
have capitalist relations of property and the
capitalist concept of real estate, it is
impossible to solve the housing crisis. Its
intrinsic. In fact, capitalism requires a
 shortfall of housing in order to function
because if there were huge amounts of low
cost, easily available, high quality housing,
people would suddenly nd that their
motivation to be in shitty jobs would be a lot
less. They would devote themselves much
more to ideas of leisure and alternative forms
of artistic practice or creative work.
Capitalism in order to create more value can
only do two things: it can either build more
supply or it can create more demand. If it can
create more demand by also reducing supply,
then of course you get higher levels of prot.
Enter keyword
The problems that we face are unsolvable.

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That doesnt mean that we shouldnt try.
! I" #
Openings think a good example of why thats possible is
capitalism says we are going to have prot
forever innitely, which of course is an
absurdity. The planet is a limited surface.
Even the universe conceptually is a bounded
entity, and yet this kind of utopian
impossibility of innite prot allows us still to
structure our societies. If we think of
alternative models that existed in the past,
they may not serve as such great examples.
The idea, for example, of communism in
which people will not own any property and
there will be no concepts of real estate or
prot. Of course, they seem impossible and
utopian because they are, but that doesnt
mean they cant also be a utopian dream
towards which you are trying to move.

SC: What in your opinion is one of the best

completed architectural projects of the
last decade and why?

JS: One of the projects is called CCTV Tower

by Dutch rm OMA, which is run by Rem
Koolhaas. It was the Chinese state television
tower. Its interesting for a number of
reasons. OMA were invited to rebuild or
make a proposal for the World Trade Center
after 9/11. They realised that they were
misplacing their energies, and they would put
it instead into, rather than rebuilding the
past, looking to the future. In China, at that
time, there were a number of television
stations, some of which were very
progressive, almost like the BBC of China,
which looked to transparency, that were very
young, and others that were extremely old, to
do with communist propaganda. Because
they were separated, there was no
opportunity for progress.

What CCTV did was create a huge loop in

which all the people within the building were
forced to cycle through all the dierent
spaces in order to move from one studio to
another or from oce to oce. As a result
you got a huge mixing between the old
communist guard and, lets say, the new pro-
democracy, pro-transparency television
channels. That, I think, is a really good
example of how architecture can intervene in
highly problematic, highly politically loaded
scenarios and make a positive proposition
through something as simple as circulation
within a building as how we might change
society. Thats, I think, a very important
example. Its in Beijing.

SC: Are there any particular topics you

want to address in your work in the future?

JS: The Real Review is not a thematic

magazine; however, there are certain
conditions which become unavoidable. One
that is very important to us, at the moment,
on the editorial team, is the idea of global
civil war. It was an idea rst hesitantly
explored by an Italian philosopher called
Giorgio Agamben, but it really takes on new
relevance in the current context. What it
suggests is that if WWII was about the
conict between nation states, that
eventually one of them ran out of weapons
and thats how the war ended. Today in a
globalised system, you dont have any
moment at which there is enough conict for
people to run out of resources. What you get,
on the one hand, is a kind of cold war in
which whether its the South China Sea,
whether its Crimea or whether its Syria,
these global superpowers, their forces are
never dissipated. Its like water sloshing
around in a bathtub.

On the other hand, what you have is, almost

within every other country in the world right
now, some form of civil war, which ranges
from actual insurgency like Boko Haram in
Nigeria through to actual civil wars like in
Syria, failed states like Libya and then
lessening degrees of that. You could describe
the outcome of the American election as a
form of civil war, in which there are two very
clearly determined and fundamentally and
ideologically opposed groups. Even British
Brexit and the subsequent decline or
diculties that weve had in constitutional in
parliamentary democracy in this country are
also a form of profound division between
very dierent groups. This, in a way, is like a
global condition of perpetual civil conict.
Its not yet clear how we are going to restore
unity and progressive values which are not
based on xenophobia, nationalism or racism,
but which are based on inclusivity,
democracy and equity. They are the ideas
which REAL Foundation is pursuing the
most.

SC: Are there any writers, thinkers or

architects that have been inuential in
your career?
JS: There are three writers who have been
most inuential to me, and the list of
architects is huge. Theres tons. The writers
may be more interesting to comment. The
rst is J.G. Ballard, an English novelist. He
created an entirely new genre of science
ction, which was really about the extreme
present. He took conditions that occurred
now and pushed them to their most logical,
and therefore illogical, extreme in order to
explore what the consequences of reality
were. That was very powerful. Then theres
the French philosopher Jean Baudrillard who
wrote Simulacra and Simulation, which in a
way is the basis for The Matrix movies.
Basically, he looked at what you might call
the philosophy of the image and moments at
which reality gets subsumed by its own
image. He was writing about the impact of
what credit cards did to your perception of
reality, in which he said the ability to go out
and own an object instantly and then pay for
it later means that you have no connection
between the debt that youre paying and the
object you own. He was speculating on
concepts like Instagram in the 1960s long
before we had personal computers or any
idea of the proliferation of the image.

The third author who I think is very powerful

for me is Henri Lefebvre, another French
philosopher, who wrote another amazing
book called Critique of Everyday Life. He says
its great to talk about complex ideas like
capitalism and these ideologies, but actually
they exist at very precise and material
examples. He says if you look at a Parisian
housewife who is at home during the day, she
leaves her apartment on the fourth oor and
she heads down to the corner where she buys
some vegetables with some money in that
moment, as soon as you start to ask questions
about her: Why is the woman at home during
the day? Where is the rest of the family? Why
does she live on the fourth oor? What sort of
building is this? What is the concept of a store
and why is she exchanging money, a
currency, in exchange for a commodity? All
of the ideas of social power and political
relationships as well as all of the ideas about
capitalism can be embedded in that one
example. I nd the way in which we look at
sometimes trivial and overlooked simple
examples, in which very powerful ideologies
are in operation, is a huge inspiration to me.
SC: Your primary role has shifted from
designer to critic, writer and curator was
this movement organic or something you
had planned?

JS: Not at all. In fact, the only reason that I

dont design more built work is because I do
not yet have capital or access to capital in
order to achieve those visions, but I design a
lot. Recently, Ive moved from doing
hypothetical designs, mostly for high-rise
structures, into really ne grain furniture. I
collaborate a lot with other people. I
collaborated with a British and Scandinavian
rm called Hesselbrand to design a range of
furniture, one of which was a day bed. I had
conducted real research into what the role of
the bed in the home today was, and basically
in 2014, the bed overtook the sofa as the most
used piece of furniture in the home. For the
rst time ever, its now a place where were
eating, where were doing our emails, where
were watching live or catch up television,
where we are socialising through our social
media. Its a place of production and
reproduction. Especially in environments
where there is a huge amount of pressure on
the home itself where you have a high density
of people living together, and the bedroom
becomes, in eect, a micro apartment, the
bed becomes the most important piece of
furniture there. What Hesselbrand and I
worked on together was if the bed and the
sofa are now the same thing, is there a
typology or a form of furniture that can be
reimagined.

We looked at the idea of the daybed. A

daybed, which as a single unit is a place of
work or rest, but when you bring them
together they begin to form other
congurations which also create unexpected
relationships between people. Being a
designer, to me, is very important. In a way,
in order to progress some of my grander ideas
about new forms of housing, as is inevitable
as a young architect, I have to scale it right
back to whats actually possible and start at
the level of furniture. Now, we are beginning
to do interiors and exhibitions, and then we
will begin to do housing and it will grow from
there. For me, the role of writing and
designing are really important to relate to
each other because writing and being
involved in cultural activities helps you to
understand what you can do, what you should
do, and what you believe. Designing, then, is
about making those ideas into reality. How
you translate those abstract ideas to things
which are real and exist in the world.

SC: Is there a piece of advice you could

oer to those currently in education?

JS: There has been a trend in recent years

with the rise of social media to think of
oneself as a one-person corporation and
therefore to discuss things like personal
brand. Your Instagram account, as well as the
way in which you design, there is so much
pressure for a designer to rapidly develop a
distinctive aesthetic and a distinctive
approach, which is unique amongst their
peers, but it takes many years to develop that.
Its something which is still on-going for me
and will be for my entire life. Dont feel too
much pressure to nd the answer
immediately. The only way in order to
discover the answer to the questions that
youre interested in is through time.

SC: What does London, particularly

Cambridge Heath, oer you as the site of
your organisation?

JS: Its at the centre of Londons

gentrication. Its at the centre of a shifting
focus between the West End, which has
traditionally been highly commercial, to a
new East End, which as a result of the
Olympics is really a canary in the coalmine
for how new forms of infrastructure, new
property relations, and new types of space in
the city are being explored. You have this
huge social tension between the gentrifying
class, of which I am myself a part, who like
at whites, who ride xed-gear bikes, who are
driving up the cost of rent in the area, and an
existing population who remember the city
before it was so much driven by capital. The
real reason that it interests me is because in a
post-industrial economy, most things are
what you might call immaterial. We dont go
to factories and make cars. We sit at desks
and code websites. In that sense, East
London is really the centre for a vision for
what that type of post industrial economy
might look like.

SC: Which area of London do you live and

what drew you there?

JS: I live in Hampstead. Theres very little to

do there. I moved there after spending six
years in Dalston. I left Dalston out of a kind
of middle class guilt at having been involved
in the gentrication of the area that I was in. I
wanted to go to an area that was pre-
gentried and wouldnt undergo profound
social change. Hampstead is the ideal
location for that. One other thing to add, I
moved to Hampstead because the rent was
cheaper near the Heath than it was in Dalston
Junction.

SC: Favourite place to relax in London?

JS: I love Hampstead Heath. I like to walk on

Hampstead Heath as much as I can, at least
once or twice a week. When I worked from
home, it was every day. The Heath is such an
unusual escape from urban conditions.
Because the Heath, in its more than 1,000
year history, has never been built on, it really
is one of the only places in London where you
can be surrounded by a form of nature, and
you appreciate every single season. I used to
hate winter in London, which I found
crushingly grey, but when youre surrounded
by 100 year old oak trees its really a quite
relaxing experience.

SC: Favourite place to shop in London?

JS: I dont really shop. My luxuries to myself

are never really objects. With the exception
of books, I really try to have as few objects as
possible. The Architectural Association
Bookshop, which is in Bedford Square, is one
of the most relaxing and pleasant book
stores. It has such an incredible range of art
and architecture books. Its like a kind of
hidden gem that everyone in the architecture
world knows about, but not so many people
outside know. Of course, the Architectural
Association itself is a school of architecture
based around a bar, which has quite
subsidised drinks right next to Tottenham
Court Road, so its quite an incredible place
to go and buy a book and then sit at the bar
and have a gin and tonic.

SC: Favourite restaurant in London?

JS: My favourite restaurant is called Fischers

in Marylebone. Its part of a group run by
Corbin & King. Its an amazing restaurant for
a couple of reasons. The food is very good
and its not insanely expensive, like many of
the other restaurants in that same group. Its
also really interesting because its what you
might call a new form of Postmodernism. Its
extremely rened imitation to the point
where the owners will nd historic chairs in
Europe that come from the period in Austrian
history they are looking for and then they will
have them replicated in a British factory.
They are true fakes, so they are real Austrian
chairs but replicated. In a way the whole
restaurant in itself becomes quite interesting
because theyre real Austrian waiters, but its
a completely fake Austrian restaurant. I like
very much this kind of play on what is
authentic, what is real and what is not. I nd
that in some way very representative of the
time we live in.

SC: Preferred work attire?

JS: I always wear the same thing, which is a

Lacoste long-sleeve polo in about eight or
nine dierent colours and Reebok trainers. In
2011, when I was involved in a lot of social
protests, I decided at that point to develop a
ten-year plan. A ten-year plan is a very
archaic idea, but also it is a form of
resistance. It is so hard to know where we will
be in four or six months, whether we will be
with the same person, live in the same
apartment, have the same job. Theres no
stability. Against this, the idea of a long term
plan and stability seem to me a very
interesting form of resistance.

Theres this constant pressure to change your

clothes to stay up to date to have the latest
hair cut or the latest piece of jewellery. I
decided that, almost exactly how I dressed at
that time, I would remain the same for as
long as I could. I used to have very long hair
and a beard and a moustache. I shaved my
head to a uniform number one. I wore a very
nondescript and generic polo and very
nondescript, generic trainers and I shaved my
face, so there would never be any more
question of personal taste or personal
aesthetic. It becomes as much as possible a
refusal of an entry into a system which causes
you to constantly change.

SC: Favourite holiday destination or where

would you live if not London?

JS: If I didnt live in London, I would live

almost anywhere in Europe. Ive lived in
Paris, which I enjoy a lot, and recently Ive
discovered Amsterdam. I found Amsterdam a
very interesting experience because in a lot of
ways the Dutch are a lot like the Anglo
Saxons, but with some slightly weird twists
which I nd intriguing.

Interview by Keshav Anand | Photography

by Steph Wilson

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