Bosephus Interview

Sarah Arney (SA): Thank you for agreeing to speak with me. I would like to start out this

interview by playing you something I heard while I was at General Conference.

Bosephus (B): Okay.

SA: This is from a Bishop who is about to start some group discussions.

Bishop Palmer: So I want to tell you a quick story. The Council of Bishops a couple of

years ago was having table conversations about some of our most challenging issues in

the life of the church and the several cultures that we represent around the globe. One

of our colleague bishops at the table where I was sitting said, We all need to take a

step back. There was a pregnant pause, as you might imagine, not knowing what would

be said next by this particular bishop, who Ill not throw under the bus as we speak. He

said, Why dont we try telling our story, before we take our stand. I found those words

memorable, and I'm grateful for them to this day, no matter what the subject is before

us. So would you see this as a time for you to tell your story, and you dont have to give

every detail of your life, but as it relates relevantly to this conversation that weve been

engaged in over many decades around human sexuality. And as you begin that, the

statement is coming, that ought to be available at the heart, but think about telling a

story, telling your story, before you take your stand.

SA: So that is just to set the tone of this interview. What I would really like to discuss is

more your experiences and the path youve taken alongside this debate rather than, as
you said, where you fall on the spectrum. So, would you like to state your occupation

and a bit about yourself?

B:

I am a United Methodist minister and grew up in Alabama. I did not grow up in

the Methodist Church. I went to a Methodist affiliated school and college, I became very

in love with the way the Methodist Church spoke about things, the fact that God was a

God of love and grace that I'd never really heard as a kid growing up. Not to say that

they never talked about it but for whatever reason that wasn't the accented note. So I've

come into the Methodist Church later, in college, but soon fell in love with it and worked,

wanted to work within the Methodist Church, and felt called become ordained. A lot of

my best memories in life there is a Methodist Church involved somehow. So Im very

committed to and love the Methodist Church as best I can.

SA: Thank you. Could you tell me a bit about your call to ministry?

B:

Yeah. So started off going to school thinking I was going to be a doctor, which is

what a lot of ministers do I think. There's always that general sense of you want to help

folks. So I started off there, and when I sort of had mysome folks would call it a born-

again moment, others would say its prevenient grace, that I finally realized there was

more. So once I started becoming more interested in my faith I realized that the call to

being a doctor was really not what I had, that I really did sense that God was calling me
into ministry. I talk about there being a time where God would not let the conversation

drop. I woke up one morning after realizing several times that God was, I was saying,

Oh, I could do so much. I could be a medical missionary, I can do this and that, I can

serve the community God I promise you, I know what I'm doing, and at the end of the

day saying, Fine, Ill become a religion major. So switched degrees to a religion, which

sort of sets your course. There's not a whole lot that you can do with a religion degree. I

mean there is, I think you're doing something religion or philosophy. They're good

degrees. It's like Englishit can prepare you for everything and sort of set you up for

nothing.

So that's the story is that I got called, and I had others affirming my call. All my

professors affirmed me going into ministry, friends affirmed. So I had the classic, the

spirit moving in my own heart and sort of the discernment of the community helping me

see that it wasn't just a fluke.

SA: How important would say that culture is shaping your religious beliefs? This could

be an American, living in the American South

B:

I don't think there's ever such thing as a Christian in a vacuum. Culture has an

impact whether we recognize it or not. That I grew up in the American South means that

I have a particular view of Christianity. And that's true of every Christian group that's

ever been. The Johannine community, that wrote the Gospel of John and the letters of

John, were a particular group in the way that those who were around Matthew were not.

So culture has a big influence. I guess is what I'm saying. Not that I try to let it, but that
recognizing you just cannot you don't exist in a vacuum ever. Everybody is in their

own situation, and that affects how you minister and how you understand faith.

SA: How would you describe your viewpoint of the debate around human sexuality and

the doctrine in the United Methodist Church around that?

B: Say the question again?

SA: How would you describe your viewpoint about the debate in the United Methodist

Church around human sexuality and the doctrine that theyve established?

B:

If you were to do the conservative-liberal spectrum, I would probably be center

going left. Part of that's not just because of what I think, but how all the issues interact.

And that may be other questions I don't want to jump the questions are not.

SA: No, not at all.

B:

Okay, so within the question of human sexuality to begin with, you talk about

where we are as a church and as a place in history. Sexuality itself has been very a

taboo subject for the church evangelicals, those coming out of the Victorian era. We've

had a very skewed sense of sexuality. I know for my wife you know grew up in a more

evangelical church, the sort of modest is hottest kind of thing that develops. The idea
that boys will be boys is another sort of bizarre aspect where boys can do any number

of things and be excused because, Well their hormones are raging they don't have any

ability to control that. So they say. Trying to get back to a point, see this is a problem,

preachers can talk.

I would succinctly say that human sexuality is a gift of God, that we have been

given these sexual desires and that they themselves can be used as a means of grace,

which is in a Methodist term, or they can be perverted. It's sort of a neutral thing. I can't

remember who it was that I read in seminary that really got me thinking on that, but the

idea of it was that for some people they say those who are gay and want to be ordained

should be celibate. The guy talks about how if we understand marriage to be a

sacrament, which is something I move towards. Its technically in the liturgy itself; we

talk about it being an outward sign of an inward spiritual grace. We talk about the rings

in the marriage, but we don't actually affirm it as a sacrament, but we talk about it in a

sacramental way. So if that's what it is, it's a way of showing something external for us

that we can see and see inside God's personhood. Sexuality is included in that the

marriage is not about procreation, which is sometimes what folks can argue that, Oh

well the reason its wrong as you cant make babies, but the moment you do that you

exclude anyone who is heterosexual and just maybe biologically can't have children. So

you don't want to say that. But if you go with it's a sacrament, sacramental, then you can

affirm at once that sexuality in a marriage covenant can reveal something deeper about

God's love and grace in the way that maybe a non-marital sexuality might not. Not

saying that is somehow wrong, but that there's something in a Christians mind of two

people together promising things and loving each other even when love is hard speaks

to God's love.
 So the act itself doesn't matter if it's homosexual or heterosexual for the fact that

it's a sign. Just in the same way that you can use Kings Hawaiian bread and grape juice

or crackers and real wine. What it is isn't so much as important as what it can convey.

But I take seriously the vow that I made in going into ordination to uphold the discipline,

and to work with it. So in that sense of thing that keeps me probably center is saying

that as it stands the Book of Discipline says X, and so to be somebody, of my own

personal integrity, not wanting to break a covenant that I made with the body of the

Methodist ministers. That's probably the short answer somewhere in there. I don't

believe it's a mortal sin, but also want to see the Methodist Church uphold its own

commitments and work within the system.

SA: Thank you. So, were going to go back in time a little bit. When you were growing

how important was the debate in your community or awareness of LGBT persons in the

community? Did people talk about it? What did you hear?

B:

No I can't say that I really remember that conversation all that much. I had family

members who were gay, and I just never realized it. I mean I had an Uncle Bob, I mean

an uncle Steve, who I never realized had no actual genetic relation to me. I just thought

that he was I think when I was little I thought they were brothers that lived together.

And growing up I don't remember ever hearing something explicitly against the practice

or the life of homosexuals. Somehow I do you know that it there must've been

something, because I can remember another relative of mine saying something. And

this is was when I was younger, and I have apologized for this since but remember

saying, You know, if you were gay I would disown you. So somewhere in there I got
that impression that it was wrong. So it's a weird, somehow it was there but I don't

remember ever hearing it explicitly stated.

SA: Would you say that changed through high school and college at all?

B:

Yeah I think it changed throughout high school, college, and seminary. High

school I was not so much interested in faith, so I didn't really care either way what folks

were doing. In college realizing and struggling with the fact that I had very close family

members who were gay, and again wrestling with that idea of if God is a God of love,

which is what I come to believe, then why? And out you also holding very fast to it's not

a personal choice, and I don't think people It's not like somebody could ask me, Well

when did you choose to be heterosexual?. Its not like I had that moment where I said,

Okay, well one or the other. And I realize even saying one or the other, that there is a

spectrum even in sexuality. Point being, its not something you really have a ton of

control over. So realizing that there's sort of genetics involved, and also knowing that

why would a good God loving God create somebody in a way that was then somehow

sinful? That didn't seem very fair.

Involved in this, obviously, I think is your understanding of evolution and an

understanding of how to read Scripture. So obviously evolution is a scientific fact. I've

never had problem with science being able to say, Okay, it's genetics, like there's

something there that nobody can control, and then in seminary realizing the way that

you read Scripturerealizing that you can say at once it's a holy book, that its a rule for

life as Wesley would say, Contains everything necessary for salvation, and at the same

time saying it's a historical document that has been written by a patriarchal society
thousands of years ago, and definitely has human thoughts. I mean it's not just like

purely the words that God wrote. All that to say, there's a way to say that you affirm the

book and not the firm everything of the book. I mean, it said that God tells Israel to

slaughter those in Cana. Most folks, good Christian folks, would agree that genocide is a

terrible thing and so we should not do it, even though it says in Scripture that God told

folks to do it. Anybody who says God told me to do something like that, we immediately

say you may need some help.

SA: Would you say it was discussed at all in your training as a pastor, in seminary or

divinity school?

B:

We talked about it briefly in theology and ethics, I think, and for the most part it

was not really talked about where else in that context. Even as I was going before the

board of ordained ministry I thought I was going to be asked about it, but not a word.

SA: Is that something you think people would ask about? Or why do you think they

choose to handle it that way?

B:

Sorry I'm having to tell my wife I'm actually alive. Why do I think nobody asked? I

think sometimes it can be a no pun intended, the don't ask don't tell policy. If we don't

talk about it, it's not an issue. Simple as that.

SA:
 So how would you say that they debate has progressed? I know that you haven't

had the longest tenure, so probably a shorter period of time, but maybe from the time

when you were in seminary to looking how the debate has developed today, what

trajectory do you think that the debate is taking?

B:

I think, and this is something a professor in college said, that we are in the most

interesting part of United Methodist history. There's a lot of things that are going on that

are seismic shifts in culture and all that. So I would say that the way the it has gone now

is almost apocalyptic. I mean that folks are just ready to schism, people are ready to do

a lot of extreme things for their own side. I do believe that it's a social justice issue and

that for me causes some anxiety in my own mind. Because growing up in Alabama, and

the civil rights being social justice issue, and the folks were, folks were, MLK was

accused of being sort of an extremist, like, Why are you, just wait, let's kind of work this

out, and the point was, no, people's rights are being denied. People are being killed.

And whether folks recognize it or not, members of the LGBTQI they are being beaten,

they are being abused, and theyre in many cases being killed. So it's not just simply a

theological issue for some.

So I think that some of why it's coming to a head, but it for the most part I think

it's somebody told me for the past seven general conferences, almost 50 years, this has

been an issue that's been brought up. One of my colleagues has said, How many times

are we going to vote on this, devote resources to it, when you could just say you take

this, and will take this, and go our separate ways. So I think that's where we are, I think

as a denomination. The conversation has been going on for a long time and folks are

getting very frustrated, rightly so.

SA: So has your opinion of the doctrine around human sexuality in the United Methodist

Church changed over time? If it hasnt, what parts of your thinking are particularly

persuasive to you?

B:

Im trying to think if there's anything technically in the articles of religion that deal

with human sexuality, you know things that are sort of basic Christian truths. I can't think

of anything there. Like I said earlier, understanding that, what do Methodist work with?

The quadrilateral, right? The Wesleyan, so Scripture, faith, tradition, and reason.

Scripturally, coming to realize that these words that we think are equal to common

homosexuality actually not being what we think of. Again realizing that this is a book that

was written in the context that's way different than ours, so you can't just say, Well it

says it here, therefore this is our conversation. Realizing that Scripture has always

been NT Wright talks about it like a being in a four act play. The third act we've had

through Scripture, the fourth act is how we go with that. So you don't, its the improv it's

yes, and. So there's ways that you can, you can't throw out what has been said, but

you can move the conversation in a different way.

Experiences of folks want to say, There arent any gay folks in the community

or in the church. And thats not true, I mean there've been plenty of faithful Christians

identify as gay, and I've known several. I don't always agree with their theology, just in

general, but I do know that theyre trying. Realizing that we are all in some sense sinful.

I'm just amazed that there are straight white men who can get up and act like

they've never had a sexual urge ever in their life. Some that make it as if that has never

affected them. Me personally, its part of me. Thats the awkwardness of growing up and
going through puberty, you have these feelings and you don't know how to deal with

them. Realizing I think the sort of sacramental view of marriage. It's not about having

kids, its about revealing a deep mystery of God's love in that sense.

So in saying all that sort of my Scripture, reason, tradition, kind of thing. I don't

know any of that that would go against what the Methodist Church says now or even

That all people are created of sacred work is a basic idea of, should be of all Christians,

that we are created in God's image. There I divert then is the idea of incompatible with

Christian doctrine, because I think it can move. I've got a friend who is in ministry who

has been divorced and is very strong on homosexuality as a sin. Its written about, its

written against in Scripture. I think, Well wait a minute, you yourself have been

divorced, and Jesus actually talks about divorce, very explicitly. Old Testament, New

Testament, it's there. Paul talks about if you can keep your own household together you

shouldnt be a minister. That's my paraphrase. And yet, he used the phrase of

something like, Well we just moved on as a society from that. He can't have it both

ways. You can't say for my issue, the thing that I've dealt with as a straight white male

no longer applies, but this thing that I have no context in still applies. If you are okay with

divorce then you should be okay with gay marriage, gay ordination because you're sort

of working on that same trajectory.

SA: Have you in this church or in any other group youve been a part of taken steps to

talk about the debate?

B:

No, because I am an extreme coward, and I'll admit that. One, because like I

said, folks use it to peg you. It's so amazing that people will put you in a spot and then
not work with you because they think you are liberal or conservative. And that's so

dangerous for a minister, to have somebody shut you out just because of one thought.

SA: So you mentioned that you know several people in LGBT community. Have you ever

had a conversation about the debate with them and if so, what kind of perspective did

they bring?

B: You mean the debate within the church or you mean just in general LGBT rights?

What do you mean?

SA: Primarily within the United Methodist Church, but if you have had important

conversations elsewhere

B:

I can't say that I've had full blown conversations with family members. Even there

it's been sort of cursory. I had lunch once with my uncle and he asked, If your church

allowed Gay marriage would you bless that marriage?. And here's a man who has seen

me grow up, and was an uncle, and to hear him say that and see the hurt in his eyes,

and see that at that moment I wasn't his nephew, I represented something that has hurt

him and oppressed him. And that was kind of as far as the conversation could go

because all I could say is, Yeah, I would bless the marriage. So on some levels the

conversations have been brief, but only because there's a lot of depth behind whatever

the words are.

SA: So when you have conversations about this, or when you think about ways to

facilitate that kind of conversation, what values or aspects of your faith would you lean

on to do that?

B:

I think somewhere the conversation has to start with how you read Scripture,

because this is where it's coming from. Methodists are Evangelicals in their root, so you

have to start on that ground. Scripture can still be holy and you can also at the same

time be critical of it. I think I would want to lean on that if I wanted to be able to have the

conversation and it not turn into a yelling match. Start with, what does it mean to read

the Bible?

SA: So, getting close to the end, if you speak to you or ask a question of someone who

does not share your viewpoint, and this could be one of many viewpoints, what question

would you ask them?

B:

Well like I said, I really do want to know why some folks can turn a blind eye to

divorce or clear signs of abuse of human sexuality. Rape being one of them, and that

being a clear issue that our society, like I said, does the boys will be boys mentality

and that there can be almost no repercussions. I know that several universities the girl

will drop out before the perpetrator will, but the church doesn't speak to that. So I don't

understand how to me more clear violations of somebody's human sexuality, that is a

gift from God, why is that not a conversation? Does it make sense? So that would be the

question is, how do you turn a blind eye? If this is a problem for you what is wrong with
a couple that has been committed to one another for years and years and years, and

even possibly has raised the child in a loving family when there are folks that do not get

that, heterosexual or otherwise. I feel like I'm rambling for all this, so I apologize.

SA: No, not at all, not at all. I asked that question of some of the other pastors that I

interviewed, and one of then asked this question, and they didnt bring up what I'm

about to say that. One of the things Ive heard is that from the more conservative

viewpoint, when you talk about compromise, or a great third way through, it seems like

the only kind of compromise there is, is changing the discipline so that the liberal side of

the debate gains all of the ground and then all the conservatives are doing is having to

move away from the current position where they feel is the correct position. So in your

mind, is there a way you could imagine either the language or the way we talk about this

changing, so that everyone can practice or can minister with integrity?

B:

Man, thats the million-dollar question, isnt it? Well I think on one level

conservatives and liberals alike need to get off their righteous high horse when it comes

to knowing for certain the right way. I think that's what is keeping us, because the truth

is, it's by God's grace that were going to get anywhere. To heaven or whatever. I don't

remember Jesus ever saying, Follow these sets of beliefs, and you will be in the

Kingdom of Heaven. So if we can step back and realize that we are all trying to

faithfully live into what it means to be a Christian, then maybe we can say, My reading

Scripture I cannot agree with what you do, or that you the way you're doing is the

appropriate way, but you have read it and I trust that the Spirit has moved.
 Even within my own clergy friends in the area, Goldsboro is a very conservative

town. So I am at once the youngest and the most liberal pastor in this area, in terms of

UMC's. We had the conversation some. At the end of the day we want to all stay

together, and maybe there are better things to talk about splitting over. I'd rather see a

church split over somebody saying, We believe Jesus really meant it when he said,

Give up everything and give to the poor, or folks that say, We don't want to do that.

But splitting over the idea that we want to include a group somehow so that we can

show God's love, we should not split over something that should be universal, whether

somebody agrees with it or not.

SA: Second to last question, or I suppose last question. You have chosen to be

anonymous. How would you like to see the conversation change so that when this

happens, when there's a difference either between pastor and community or among

pastors in the area, that there is not a risk of it impeding the work that you do?

B: So what would I like to see say the question again?

SA: What would you like to see change about the conversation?

B:

Well it would be nice if people did not like the thing that we read or you played

first. Hear somebodys story before you hear where they stand. I got to where I was

slowly; growing up in Alabama had an effect on me, in that I believed a certain way. I

have moved since to a different understanding, so it can happen. Yet at the same time I

would never want to say that somebody's reading of Scripture is wrong. I hold fast to the

idea of the right way to read Scripture is the one that makes us love God and neighbor
more. I've heard plenty of folks on the conservative side who have been able to say at

once I don't agree but I know that God loves them. The folks that believe the other side

is going to hell is the wrong way to go about it.

SA: So that concludes my official set of questions.

B: Cool!

SA: Is there anything else you would like to say or that you wish I had asked you about?

B:

Oh, I'm a one in the enneagram, which is a reformer, and one of the hardest

things about a one is struggling with being somebody of integrity. I'm very much torn

between, like I said, understanding it as a social justice issue and also trying to say, but

we need to stay together. It's easy for straight white male to say, Well, lets hold on, lets

try to get this together, when I've got friends who have been denied ordination because

of their own God-given gift. That's it.

SA: Thank you.