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\pard \ql {\fs24 \f1 This is a C.B.C. podcast. And I'm Jeff Douglas listen to t
he As it happens podcast with stories from the political to the personal need a
word to the media and on Fridays our producers a little something extra in your
feed on gas extra pulls back the curtain on how we make the show for you subscri
be at C.B.C. dot ca slash podcasts. No. Canadian doesn't have a friend birth f
amily member affected by little we know the challenge it poses to our communitie
s to our families to our it is long past and I'm Duncan McCue welcome to Cross C
ountry Checkup. The reality is this illness effects far more people on a percen
tage basis than cancer and heart disease combined Think about that for a minute.
Our question today are people who suffer from mental illness getting the suppo
rt they need call us at one triple eight four one six eight three three three.
That's one triple eight four one six eight three three three and that Diety fail
ed our family. My brother have diagnosed with paranoid but unfortunately it cam
e a little pure late P. had at first psychotic episode which resulted in him kil
ling our parents. It's not easy describing mental illness some who carry the bu
rden of the disease call it the beast or the darkness there or the clinical term
s such as schizophrenia or post-traumatic stress disorder. But here's what's ea
sier to grasp lost jobs lost loves lost lives because mental illness too often s
pirals into human tragedy. It's a fact one in five Canadians will suffer from m
ental illness at some point in their lifetime. Nearly a third of all hospital s
tays in Canada are due to mental disorder. With mood and anxiety disorders most
common. We all pay the price on any given day more than five hundred thousand
Canadians are on able to go to work due to mental health problems or illnesses m
ental illness casts a long shadow over our jails and emergency departments when
it comes to lost productivity and health costs the Mental Health Commission of C
anada has estimated it costs the country fifty billion dollars per year. The go
od news mental illness has come out of the shadows in recent years more and more
people are talking about it and diagnosis and treatments are improving. But st
igma remains. That's the number one reason why two thirds of those living with
a mental illness say they don't seek help. We want you to be part of the conver
sation today on checkup. Our question are people who suffer from mental illness
getting the support they need. As you just heard the prime minister say there
is no Canadian who doesn't have a friend or family member affected by mental hea
lth. It's something Justin Trudeau understands intimately his mother Margaret h
as struggled very publicly with bipolar disorder but our governments federal and
provincial stepping up to make mental health services accessible to all whether
it means creating mental health courts housing the homeless with severe mental
illness ramping up mental health care on university and college campuses or assi
sting First Nations struggling with high rates of suicide is enough being done.
What do you think Call us at one triple eight four one six eight three three th
ree. We dispassionately like to hear from you today. If you're a person with m
ental health issues or have been supporting a family member. What's been your e
xperience waiting for psychiatric care or counseling or being able to access it
period. Do you feel comfortable talking about mental illness at your work. Wha
t about over diagnosis and over medications that worry you. Our question today
are people who suffer from mental illness getting the support they need the numb
er again. One triple eight four one six eight three three three you can send us
 an email to check up at C.B.C. dot ca or engage with other check up listeners t
hrough social media search for check up C.B.C. on Twitter and Facebook or go to
our website at C.B.C. dot ca slash check up where you can join the live online c
hat. I'm Duncan McCue on C.B.C. Radio One on Sirius X.M. Satellite Radio channe
l one six nine and online at C.B.C. dot ca This is Cross Country Checkup. When
you are depressed. You don't want to get out of bed. If you want to you can't
it's impossible. You're down and not only can't you see the light at the end of
the tunnel. You can't just come there is absolutely. No hope you just want to
die. You want to get rid of the mental pain the mental anxiety that difference
in that can fit clinic and a mental health center where I go if very stark canc
er clinic it's beautiful building you're greeted by volunteers when you have Dr
Offit tea and coffee while you wait that mental health center is a rundown place
the receptionist fifty high protective glasses that difference just struck me s
till starkly the big problem is the lack of funding the lack of institutional pl
aces the lack of doctors and the lack of understanding towards mental health. T
here is just nowhere to go when you compare it to other physical diseases. Some
of the people you just heard in the introduction to this program were from a ch
eck up ten years ago right after a Senate report was released on the state of me
ntal health support across Canada. It was called out of the shadows at last and
it said Canadians need much more support and they need to start a conversation
instead of avoiding talking about mental health. So every few years since that
report checkup has been opening the lines to find a. Whether the situation is i
mproving and that's what we're doing today. Our first caller today is Shakur ma
y Shafi who is the co-founder of a mental health website called tranquil she's o
n the line now. Hello Hi Thanks for having me. How did you get interested in m
ental health issues shock me. Well I actually have personally experienced thing
s I.V. and I was lucky enough and I truly say lucky enough that I had ability to
get in touch with a therapist and find their best and be able to afford therapy
in cognitive behavioral therapy the changed my life and the way to deal with th
ings ID And so as an engineer I thought that was a better way of making providin
g people with access to therapy and so that's why we started to go and when desc
ribe the anxiety that you experience and when that happened to you. Yes So I fe
el like I'm one of the things that he also my life but going to school and going
back. I just have different terminologies for it. You know not being able to
you ever want to make us. Describe it as this is how it is you have to deal wit
h that and it was right after I had graduated knows working full time that I get
to have more time to really think about this the the effect that he had on my l
ife and my family members introduced me to that be and it was it was a lot of re
ally constant impact on my work in my sleeping eating and it was a really fun.
What would cost the anxiety. So it was different things. It was different trig
gers that really started things Id always be a panic for me you know in school a
nd a lot of times it was just a trigger it was dams and in work. It was a lot o
f traveling that I had to do it was causing a diety but I think I got something
that you know something that's immediately developed all of a sudden sometimes i
t's just a genetic factor and for me was one of those things that my mom getting
body and. I just really didn't think to treat errors really care about. I jus
t I was being worried all the time but in reality it was things ID and I really
did need to label anything so that I could treat it and so you were in universit
y and what kind of access to resources did you have I actually didn't I didn't r
eally get help and it was interesting it was after a while I was working that I
you know sought out there. Why didn't you get help. I really I think the way I
describe it is that every time I came to class and I had stuff and I before I w
ent I was really just on my classmates work on the same thing as me. So we just
all follow their own thing. Boat and this is just how Zeigler like this and th
en after school when you were started to work. You started up a website called
tranquil what's tranquil now so tranquil then online counselling what it does is
it matches you psychologist and clinical social workers and then allows you to
have your video sessions from home so as one of the gentleman that was on the ph
one describing depression a lot of times leaving your house is a problem being a
ble to afford it as a problem. And with Kinkel we try to do is we have reduced
the cost of therapy have a me think they're going to work for a fraction of what
it was they would be able to charge people in person and people can actually se
e as their best from home one day of its own interests and there's plenty of res
earch to really you know validate the efficacy of video based therapy for a lot
of that with including depression citee and so this way you know people get acce
ss it's much more affordable and hopefully a lot of people get treated if studen
ts or anyone else for that matter are feeling anxious or depressed. Can't they
bring those problems to their to their family doctor or a physician they can and
IS THAT was the first place I went to his office and. The first place. A lot
of Kadian go to which is their family doctor and unfortunately. Well actually n
ot even Unfortunately family doctors are not created to do therapy right though
they have learned how to navigate you incented to the right person and with an e
pistemic if they have a good family doctor you really can't expect them to like
you. Which is a terminology a lot of us really want which is a quick fix with t
his student population and they also got the counseling on campus. I mean as yo
u've seen and not all campuses have been with the number of people or students o
f anxiety. Currently you can see a lot of a lot of weight loss with the end of
counseling but there is a counting on campus where students from schools have le
ss of a wait list them with one using your website but actually tranquil one of
the populations we help with is the university campus. So we work with the unio
ns or the help center. You know for example like the provide services because i
f insurance covers in the states have insurance so they can get the liason to re
sign college really doesn't matter as long as they want care they can have acces
s to care and we even in the last week go needed three sessions as a student bec
ause of the speck in the suicide the happening there. So majority of the popula
tion they used or are young working basically package which is like between twen
ty five and forty five. But you never he's been and we're very happy about the
fact that starting to pick up on campus and even accounting centers are telling
us that you know it's it's really hard to get these because it's the stigma and
the fact that they're in denial. They don't want to get help because unfortunat
ely times they look towards God and alcohol as an alternative to calm their nerv
es and. Being able to do that that whole get into that not not no one has a pla
n but you guarantee that it will in the long term and practical that be like to
bring someone else into the conversation on the line chain partridge in Saskatoo
n Hi Shane welcome to Cross Country Checkup thinks it when you listen to to the
description of any health service like the one the shock amaze describing what g
oes through your mind. Well I think that those services are absolutely helpful
to people and I mean where I was personally I wasn't able to access that sort of
resources and stuff and I'm I know there's lots of people who are like that in
a similar boat but I think that there is tremendous in reducing You know people
in hospitals and stuff like that that maybe could be receiving treatment from ho
me or through that and what not. You said where you were out of it what was you
r experience with mental health issues. Well I was really deep in addiction and
I was living a street lifestyle and where I was at. You know we didn't I didn'
t have a computer or anything in any cell phones that I might have gotten my han
ds on I would have ended up calling off straight away to feed my addiction. It
was that bad for me but. I said I'm sure like that app for instance would help
a lot of people that wouldn't be seeking treatment otherwise or wouldn't be reac
hing hote so very thankful for things like that. Jane when did you become aware
that you had mental health struggles. Well. Growing up I had struggled with i
ssues. I had never gotten help. I was a young kid I had tried committing suici
de. A few times and my diction ended up drinking to mask everything that was go
ing on in my head the way I was feeling and and my anxiety was creating a consta
nt fear all the time and alcohol and drugs were a way that took care of and made
that go away for me and reality didn't make it go away it exasperated it but it
mastered it made me become less aware of what was going on in my head when I ha
d gotten so bad that I was hospitalized and I was told within the year if I didn
't quit drinking I was going to die and I had a soft go I mean during and. I en
ded up having a kid but transfusion and I didn't want to die. It was plain and
simple. At that time you know I had a wife and kid can and I wanted to live and
 I had stuff call it for I just didn't know how to go about it and so how did yo
u end up getting help. While I was in a dry oats are I hit detox center and I w
as calling everybody I could sealing up everybody is voice mails and I knew and
they would listen to my messages because I could leave another one. And finally
somebody got in touch with me and said I needed to reach out to an organization
called straight out and they're an organization that helps individuals leave ga
ngs and just become healthy productive citizens and and deal with the issues tha
t they got going on and they had told me at that time too. I needed to reach ou
t to some. Body Talk about mental health issues that they were expected to do i
f they had some a doctor that would come in to the detox center and basically ju
st prescribe medications to sort of numb anxieties and what not going through wi
thdrawals. But when I got in touch with the story of. You know they said well
maybe you need to look at this and sort of gave me hints as to what other people
were seeing in me because I was not aware of this right. So it shocked me. SH
AFI you there's such a huge range of mental health needs how tailored do treatme
nts for addictions or anxieties or depression need to be. I think that they're
inclined to understand that every every sort of element every in mental health i
ssue is treated fairly and that we're getting the right treatment. Unfortunatel
y as you just described that you know there are resources. It's just that peopl
e don't know about them. And I think there is that about like a condition of na
vigating our system that the navigation of our healthcare system is all difficul
t especially when you are in distress when you are in that position of darkness
it so hard to find one. I really can gradually Kalman of finding that we though
t it really difficult to find the places we need in that I mean is that I agree
we don't we can't help people with the addiction or problems where they do need
to see in person resources but they're going to have but the killer type of trea
tment and change that well I mean it was difficult for you to find that you when
you were you were in the gangs in the in the in the deep in that addiction. It
was there one thing that would have helped you more than anything else in terms
of getting to a mental health treatment. Well see and that's one thing in my j
ourney like I've discovered there are services out there. There are serious isn
't programs and and stuff out there for people. It's getting people to know wha
t. So they're like when I was struggling and reaching out. I didn't know where
to reach out to I didn't know of services and it's like you know for instance y
ou have two one one United Way serious and that can link you up with professiona
ls and I think there needs to be greater communication and really what it comes
down to is just get rid of the statement around mental health right and being ac
tive in communicating about it instead of only talking about it when you need to
make an active part of any conversation regarding health and just through that
people are going to find oh you know sort of what's out there for services and i
t's going to become more of a common knowledge thing rather than just the dark s
ort of place that a person has to go to find help while shocking and chain I'm r
eally glad that you're both here to talk with us about it today and I'm glad you
're both doing better. Thanks for joining us. Oh thank you. Shakin to Shafi i
s the co-founder of a mental health website called tranquil shame Partridge is a
mental health advocate in Saskatoon. This is cross country check up on Doc And
Nick you were talking about mental health. Do you feel there's been progress o
n the level of support and services for people dealing with mental illness. Wha
t's getting better. What needs improvement. What do you think of receiving cou
nseling services and support online like shock and I was talking about there. C
all us at one triple eight four one six eight three three three or you can e-mai
l checkup at C.B.C. dot ca or find us on Twitter and. Facebook search for check
up C.B.C. or go to our Web site at C.B.C. dossier slash check up. There's a lo
t more stuff there as well as a live online chat Michael O'Neill tweeted out US
people who work normal hours have very little opportunity to access counselling.
You either have to be rich or dependent. Let's open up our lines Oh Thomas Br
aun is calling from Ottawa Hi Thomas welcome to Cross Country Checkup. I don't
get how are you doing really well what do you think about this topic of mental h
ealth. Well you know Duncan I'd really like to be wrong about this. But my mot
her suffered for years you know. And the reason she did was she lived in small
towns in southern Ontario the kind of town that I don't think really attracts to
p professionals. She lived in Port Coburn where she got no help and then starti
ng out later where she got bad help and it really made her life miserable. What
kind of things was your mother going through Thomas anxiety depression. And in
ability to socialize properly with people you know she you know mind your own bu
siness was not in her book and it got her into a lot of trouble. And you know l
ike I say I'd like to be wrong about this but but again I suspect that you know
if you've gone through a psychology degree or a psychiatry degree which takes me
dicine. Psychiatry degree. You don't want to settle in Backwater Nova Scotia y
ou want to settle in a town with some culture and so what I propose is a kind of
Northern Exposure treatment like the T.V. show you want to pay off your student
loan for psychology great. We love it go work and hope B.C. for five years to
become we need you there. Did your mom ever end up getting any treatment homes.
She got tree. But I would not say it was from someone was very professional.
So how did she find the treatment. I'm sorry. How did she find that treatment
. Well it never really helped you know and that the regime in these small towns
as well I mean it was shameful to do that. Yeah. Did she end up having to go
to the big city or was there someone available locally. Well there was someone
available locally and start a general hospital but you know I mean with respect
to the family this was not a very professional person and look I was a degenerat
e and out of hospital I cleaned his office and I took the empty so it was an alc
oholic and so it was kind of the blind leading the blind. So yes he never reall
y got the kind of caring loving seeing with the help that she needed and when sh
e eventually did die in ripe old age of heart disease. I think that the lack of
stability made her quite terrified in the end of everything and I think you kno
w I don't have any doubt. Look I'm an author while I could open the yellow page
s or the Internet and find a psychologist in three minutes here but to find some
one. Really good in the small towns in those days not. And I don't think it's
changed. Well you raise a good point. Thomas and let's open it up to our to ou
r checkup listeners I would like to hear from you if you're in rural Canada. We
ll let us know if. If you have access to a mental health or a P. or supports an
d that's a really good point. Thanks for phoning in Thomas. Well she will have
experienced and she was Ukrainian So Duncan can come to you. OK Take care. Le
t's go to Sharon who's calling from got no comeback Hi Sharon. Welcome to Cross
Country Checkup and Oh don't. We're talking about mental health today what do
you think Sharon West and I mean and I really love you and your show. That's gr
eat. It's a respect. Mental help I've never been on a lot of radio. I didn't
think I even have the courage to get I'm going to say that to be quite honest wi
th you. I think awareness clock awareness is the you number one. It's the key.
It's never one. And before you can become self-aware. You need to reduce all
of that stigma of shame and. You know it's shame. People do not want to reach
out for help because they feel shame and why do they feel shame because when yo
u do reach out are on that you're not that you're not listening to. And having
you know. And you said it. It's takes some courage to be on for you to be on t
he line today what's what's been your experience with with mental health issues.
Well my my experience has been I've been up that not as a community part of my
make up here. I mean I've been in a work situation and I've sat on that. Hey
listen I'm struggling. I'm really struggling and you know mental health is the
commentary one of us we all have situations our lives up and down. But a long t
erm stressful situation will lead to when you're when you're out there and you'r
e you know asking for help for a long period of time you know I getting it. Wel
l that's going to lead to a mental health breakdown. What's it like what was it
like for you. Sharon to sit down with your employer and say ah I'm struggling
I've got a mental health issue here. Well you just get pushed off of the board
and people don't want to they don't want to hear it only because not because the
y're not a nice people. It's because they don't understand they don't have that
compassion I don't know what it is but I'll really really have to struggle and
long and I can go on for years here but I'll. It's not they don't have faith in
the people but come on. Sit down. Listen and be honest and just be compassion
ate to that person once someone comes up to you and they're struggling. They ha
ve the courage to say so hard. Take it seriously. Don't you know. Don't push
it off as OK well you got issues in your life. So deal with your issues. No no
no we're in it together and are until we get to the point of really supporting
each other and having compassion for each other. It's not going to go anywhere.
Yes obviously we all are just lawful certain individual selves and you have to
be aware you know unless you're aware. From a never going to get there but whe
n you have to careers. That up and say hey listen I'm struggling are in I'm fee
ling Zen ID and all of this kind of that's. Don't push me back in a corner. Yo
u know. And you also raise a really good point about about trying to raise thos
e conversations in an employment setting so we hope maybe we can hear from some
employers or other people who've gone through that and work setting Sharon thank
s a lot for sharing. Not today. Well and I'm also very encouraged because all
kind used aware has conversation is out there you know I mean also that window d
ressing. We have to come up Broughton's they were really concerned about mental
health in the workplace and his Federal Government is I mean it's worldwide rig
ht now we all know that come on. But I am curious and I don't give up hope and
I will keep the faith and I will contribute whatever way I can and if everybody
can do that and just be honest. And really care for each other we will make a d
ifference. OK thanks for that positive thinking. Sharon. My next guest is Nat
asha Bartlett senior manager of mental health and justice programs with Fred Vic
tor a charity that serves homeless and low income people. In Toronto hello Nata
sha. Hi. For those of us who live in cities Natasha mental illnesses is most v
isible on the streets how crucial is the issue of homelessness in dealing with m
ental illness goes hand in hand and I just wanted to say to the people previous
to me like very brave to share your experiences like I'm nervous being online an
d I'm talking you know from my agency but when you're online and you're really b
eing honest good people and we can do really believe that people need to break d
own the ignore and be more aware like I have to take my hat off to the previous
previous callers. So thank you for joining this dialogue. Absolutely. Yet bec
ause you know you see in the in the things I feel you have meant so how you tend
to be put in the call and I work with the justice system. So a lot of people a
re going through the justice system who have been home a very low level of educa
tion that poor they come out of the jails. Where do they go where do people go
because like we've heard before access to services is really still quite difficu
lt. It's not really low barrier access the services. If you come to the justic
e system. It might be the first time that you've been able to connect with the
mental health services for example a case manager. That can access those servic
es that you may not have realized were out there like one of the previous people
show and I wish I mentioned you know so so not only are you on this jury. You
don't have a place to live. There's no hope you know you've been stigmatized ha
s he gone through the justice system is very complex Is it even possible. Natas
ha to deal with mental illness if you've got someone who's homeless you know doe
s that homelessness issue need to be dealt with. Absolutely. I mean when you t
hink about anybody and everyone like one of the cool as the saying like everyone
experiences mental health to some extent if you're living on the street. How d
o you get access to counseling. How do you have access to food. How do you hav
e access to primary care which really can affect mental health issues. How do y
ou keep yourself safe. It's survival on the streets of five of the first to sta
y alive. The mental hell you know because there's no services for people really
that are on the streets they and what are talking. And things and I don't know
a lot about Canada but I'm sure that there are different issues in the rural se
ttings right across this country to about access. You know affordable housing t
he right to have your own home. I think is key for any kind of recovery. Peopl
e want to recover people on the streets of mental illness and addictions. They
want to be still part of the community. They want to feel that they're being th
ose leave and listened. You know having alternatives tentative explained to the
m choices explained to them but there's a barrier because they're on the street
you say that were you so you know people want to be listened to so often when we
talk about mental health we talk about numbers and kind of abstract issues like
diagnosis addictions anxiety depression can can are their clients that stick ou
t for you can you put a human face on mental illness for us. Sorry I didn't cat
ch that can I put a human face on mental illness for us with the clients. Well
yes I mean but it also people that we they every day people are human beings and
I think one of the callers talked about compassion put yourself in people's pos
itions. You know someone might have being having a job I can think of the lots
of people quote unquote regular life. Something's happened in that car in that
Paul or in the in the present that to them over the edge. Then it borrowed they
didn't have the money out of their job they didn't have the money they can pay
their rent. They went into the shelters or they went on to the street. They en
ded up stealing food and food because they were hungry or they were staving beca
use they have an addiction because they're on the streets and the surviving and
there in that community. It builds on each of you know if you have the money th
at you call home even if you really do need like wraparound support for the for
the beginning of your recovery process I think everyone has the right. And you
know it's a dignified way to live. How do you work with with the mentally ill w
ho are in justice programs how are the courts dealing with mentally ill people r
ight now while the numbers are high. I mean I'm just talking about the Toronto
courts and we're lucky enough to be Paul they. One of the few mental health of
native court. Which is an amazing model has the same judge crown duty count bot
h the support the office of the. Even the correction offices they have an under
standing of what it is when someone comes in with a mental health an addiction i
ssues. What that person might be experiencing they have a different level of un
derstanding. So when this person is going through mental health diversion which
is not an easy program for someone to voluntary say yes I want to be part of th
is. Yes I want to take responsibility and begin my my recovery process. You kn
ow they have like a really safe and supportive network around them to take and t
heir devotion can be three to six to twelve months. You know there's other coal
that not so dignified so but the mental health court are. Nationally trained i
n mental health issues but can you explain what you mean by diversion what's wha
t's different about mental health court but mental hope of those you know if som
ebody has a psychotic break or they say they've been living with they for exampl
e get different here for a very long time without treatment because they are liv
ing in poverty or they've been homeless or circumstances and they've committed a
crime that Myna like Donda they would be picked up by the police the say they w
ould go to detention that come to the court. We could say OK well you did this.
You know this is the consequence or we could say this you are an individual li
ving with this happened because of young men so illness. It's not you it's your
disease or your diagnosis. How can we. And you provide support the round the
helping you engage in in recovery process to manage these symptoms. So this kin
d of crime doesn't happen again. Those then the court the port workers case man
agers and the crown will work together to come up with a plan with the individua
l the they being the person who's like defining this this plan to start to get c
onnected against the community in a more healthy and kind of dignified way. So
obviously part of the idea is that they're getting treatment for their mental il
lness rather than rather than you know wasting away in a pretrial somewhere. Ye
s definitely. And it reduces risk of them. We've seen this time and time again
. I mean so many success stories come out of a people who are coming through di
version who may have had a one point that climb up the side or may have had many
throughout their lives. But those didn't have the community or the family supp
ort. Because they've been stigmatized in the areas the high to two and the othe
r they please help me and someone reach out and help them. So even if it reduce
s recidivism if people are committing crimes that are going to mental health cou
rt want it why are there so few examples of them. I think that needs to be more
. I hope I don't know they are there. I hope that you know mental health and j
ustice becomes high in the agenda in the political arena because when it is then
and then ministers will talk to each other. Is now discussions between the Hea
lth Ministry and corrections which as far as I can tell hasn't happened for a lo
ng time. This will help. How can we hope corrections learn about mental How ab
out addiction. Learn about recovery though we can now bridge the gap a bit more
but yet there is a model out here that would make it just made by Him There is
sometimes a critique of these kinds of special justice programs not. That someo
ne is getting treated as a patient as opposed to a criminal that you know what i
t is suggested that some people will say that that someone who commits a crime n
eeds to be punished and that means jail time for example. What would you say to
the kind of critique. Well you know and not sound too harsh but you know I say
try living being a person I mean with schizophrenia that they an entry to the t
wenty is living on the street. Tell me how easy that is. Tell me how easy it i
s that someone to walk by you when you're asking for money because you're really
hungry and just close their eyes to tell me how easy it is when you say help me
but no one's listening. So if you're brave enough to say yes this my mental il
lness. I want to have with this I will go through a very and it is a very inten
se. Process to go through diversion is not easy but she if you can never trust
that somebody because your trust has been broken. If you are a child you know i
f you've never had anyone support you. How did you learn to build a relationshi
p like I knew I'm on the to every week every month. You know following up peopl
e to following up with you. You have to really really engage in it and it must
be very tough. To go on medication which sometimes what Sometimes Doesn't. And
so you find the right balance and then start to feel well who am I in this worl
d where it's my place in the world because up until now no one given me as I So
yes I understand that people think like that but I think you know if we start to
be more compassionate like the last. Ladies said and we've got to say you must
. In that we have that was just the way we think and that includes just the sys
tem. Well Natasha thanks thanks for joining us today and sharing sharing your p
erspective. Yes No worries. Natasha Bartlett is senior manager of mental healt
h and justice programs with Fred Victor a charity that serves homeless and low i
ncome people in Toronto. This is Cross Country Checkup I'm Duncan McCue we're t
alking about mental health. What's working. What means more investment. What'
s been your experience of accessing mental health services. Call us at one trip
le eight four one six eight three three three or you can e-mail check up at C.B.
C. or find us on Twitter and Facebook April steel is a nurse practitioner in Sla
ve Lake Alberta and she tweeted as a health care provider. I'm hearing lots of
political talk but we need action steered by those in the midst of the battle Ed
wards tweeted it takes forever to access public services we're often left alone
to deal with our illnesses I only gained and have access to mental health servic
es and a psychiatrist because I mean university is going to hell in Mendez whose
call. From Vancouver Hi Helen welcome to cross Cup country. Pride. We were t
alking about mental health today what what what are your thoughts. Well when I
first heard the public. There are I thought about something that happened to me
. What I might have happened to other people but what had the presence of that
a long time. One of the other one girl known all I want fought. But I have the
order of the BOWDEN And I got one note however that I want you in the five year
s ago when I went the mood disorder clinic for the first time only not now but b
y calling whom. How can I I'm really keen to hear your story but if you could j
ust try to talk into your into your phone line a bit sorry. There you are great
game. I can keep on going my jaw doesn't punch for number anyway so that'll be
anyhow so so that the long and short of it is that I didn't know about this dia
gnosis although it has appeared throughout my visit on periodic basically used t
o the A.B.C. The Forgive clinic as well as psychiatrists and so on but no one I
did not know of that five but with you know since then and only learned about it
last week when I went back. We moved to sort of clinic who where I'm not a psy
chiatrist but the whole you know sort of she wanted to get a picture of my own o
ffice but we spent two hours talking about by the end of she said well you know
this was. Can you like bipolar and this was noted of a clue Hi years ago as you
know and funnily enough the what do we have a poem about this but no good will
come from. I don't know I would never know until the other though when I was in
the Holden than what I have to say Duncan is that. Bipolar two is different fr
om Major Depressive Disorder and if I don't know that diagnosis one fight under
that it seems to have done masses reading I'm hopeful mind the last couple of da
ys or a few days and there I am I can see myself. So that means that I can now
advocate for myself because I have a diagnosis and I understand it and I can exp
lain it and I can make sure that I'm getting the best treatment or the best we c
an right now I'm on medication that are inappropriate for my my illness and one
of them in fact is highly sensitive to withdrawal. So that medication which is
going to very mean that it will be all the longer before Office because it's ver
y very very difficult to withdraw from well and I'm so glad to hear that you got
that diagnosis now and I know I know I've heard from a lot of people that it ca
n be difficult finding the right medication your lines a little sketchy so I'm g
oing to let you go. But thank you so much for joining us and sharing that story
. Helen Mendez Let's go to Hamad in Toronto who is joining us now. Hi How many
Welcome to Cross Country Checkup are going to figure for having. I'm happy tha
t you are talking about this issue. I am a mental health. So why were and I am
using the survivor terms of because this is something that economists myself th
at I have to live with. The rest of my life and have to manage it. I have gone
to you know how can it be a rocky and mine will win as it's meant to close your
General Hospital and other branch mansion. And I have to tell you that. You k
now navigating the system is very difficult particularly for people who have som
e extra issues from myself I didn't have it by metaphysician at the time. So ev
entually because I have a doctorate in gene from University of Toronto and I am
highly educated I got into a lot of phone numbers and eventually getting through
and got a social worker working for me. And through that social worker I get i
n touch with hospitals and a lot of repeat in this and I have gone through five
or six social workers and when you get into the treatment. Everything is low th
at you know we talk. You go through it should be how to live if you are a numbe
r of people in each station. There are a lot of people so that people in food w
anting the program they don't have enough time to deal with the individuals alon
e and the home so the other issue is this distance is so low that. It's like in
dustrial come very people have to enter to this program at certain times and lea
ve at this certain time. To be ready for the next batch. Let me ask you this y
ou say you're highly educated fellow What how do how difficult was it for you co
ming forward and saying I have I have a mental health issue. You know what kind
of stigmas did you face. You know at the time that I went or getting help. I
was so low. But there was no lawyer place in my mind that I could go but I coul
d imagine you working in Wyoming and it's although they say oh we have Akhil of
Asian for people with. These issues but nobody fair you know and let me give yo
u an example. Admitting that you have them pose has issues is an oh this is an
issue here had that somebody got raped and then she or he went to somebody for h
elp. Other person as for the story and eventually a rape that that person again
. And person went to somebody you know you know everybody trying to when you ea
t that you have that issue. Everybody wants to take advantage of you even the s
hoes that we have in employment. That. I don't know who've checked out you kno
w when you had need a lot of if you are like you are a lot of places you know pu
t somebody else for you. I remember I asked for recommendation for my. Mental
health and they asked me why the lawyer for my physician. You know if somebody
was in the military. Nobody asked. But you know mental health. They ask why t
he liver. Is situation and the problem. I think is not money is spent on menta
l health. We spent a lot of money. I would say Enough. Problem you don't solv
e the problem people getting out of the system relapse and come back again and y
ou have to spend again and sometimes you lead the mind of problem though and gro
w and grow and become so severe because people become suicidal people who have a
lot of issues then you want to do is always if you consider the relapse and com
ing back then and also called the nation between people dealing with their menta
l health issues because mental health is housing mental health is job means of s
ocial work in dollars is somebody that. Sometimes doesn't know who you are she
is sick. You have to provide help. This is like somebody who has an accident.
And you know injured his or her legs or ever legs and have to run. But one who
walking again and how many do you describe yourself as a as a survivor. Amanda
how Survivor and going through that system a conveyor belt kind of system. You
've gone through talk therapy how are you doing now. You know I'm I'm managing
myself but my medication. My expectation from life I have they said I have a Ph
D. in engineering from University of Toronto this is not a foreigner Concord un
free but I'm working as a security guy you know that by itself. It's something
that I have to be able with every day and but. And I have gone through drop a p
rogram a lot of them some of them up for grabs to be catered for people with the
said Biddy and they said these are also fails. They're being just. For for th
e sake of people working in this system. There are nobody go and check how succ
essful they are and you could imagine somebody with a Ph D. in engineering from
University of Toronto experience working for federal government equipment help i
f they couldn't help me out. They can help somebody with high school degree. Y
ou know that that has to be there should be coordination somebody that goes thro
ugh it and for mental health. They shouldn't leave the system. We don't really
support we have to go through. You know screening. What sort of helping after
or even be corrupt that people go through they put everybody in the same catego
ry. People who are really bad side of all you know different schools or for any
by Paul are all people going to the same group. OK Well Howard thank you so mu
ch for sharing your story today really really appreciate it. Let's go over to F
redericton New Brunswick. Margaret Jones is calling Hi Margaret welcome to cros
s country check up. Thank you. When we're talking about why are people who are
living with mental health disorders getting the support they need. Margaret no
w. But I think that. I despair of past year. Perished. I have suffered from
depression. Ten years so. I mean now seventy three. Almost seventy. And I wa
s diagnosed in the last eleven years as being bipolar. I sat for very simply ar
e depression. And lying is no rest in between depression. And. I go from want
to be up there. I had three weeks of an even keel. So it's a very dark place.
And I made a telephone call to Chino do you know what it's like to get help wh
en you're OK. And I swear that girl answered. Sixteen years. So she would not
talk. I was crying. So I said You're no help to me and. Aunt Margaret if I c
ould You said you said you were ten years old when when you were first diagnosed
depression taking pills for depression when you when you were a child. What wa
s the reception when you were a child. Oh my pa there took a pill away from. Y
ou know a child. Depressed. There was nothing that worked or a family doctor.
And so and it's been you know it sounds like it's been all over sixty years now
that you've been struggling with when when you were finally diagnosed as bipola
r did things change for you. You know because I'm one of those i've right now.
I think I've found a combination of drugs. And I didn't myself. I think got t
aken something like eight different drugs. Thirty eight. There are some people
that they make YOU were the drug. I mean some of the side effects. I mean you
end up taking drugs to fight the side effects to you know if you can go. On an
d on to get back to that. Door and it was two policemen at my door. And then t
hey called the supervisor of I refused to go in the. Police wake and I've cross
ed Copia that. Three young big man I weighed one hundred fifteen. Three men.
Handcuffed me and me and cuffed me and I was certainly in the back of the police
car. And screaming because very Prost pope. Now is that the way not I do not
drink. I do not do well to take drugs prescribed to me not not that I'm not an
addict. And I was treated like a criminal. And my I mean I know Margaret there
are police forces that are trying to get mental health teams together to respon
d to our own crisis are sending what so ever. You know Margaret is there one th
ing you think that needs to change that would help people that are struggling li
ke you are nobody understands that unless you've been there. That big problem.
Even my friends tell me you should do this. You've got so much to pull off cou
rse and to. But when you get in that place. It's dark and it. Just two three
weeks to go. What. So I could not eat think Brecht my cheek. Comb for street
date somebody that whacked you didn't press your case street date. Well if you'
ve been there. You know. OK Well Margaret I thank you for phoning check up and
sharing your story today or it really appreciate you and hang in there really a
ppreciate it. You're listening to cross country check up on C.B.C. Radio One an
d on Sirius X.M. Satellite Radio channel one six nine. I'm Dokken McHugh Today
we're talking about mental health and our question is are people who suffer from
mental illness getting the support they need call us at one triple eight four o
ne six eight three three three we really appreciate people who are suffering wit
h mental health issues like Margaret there who phoned us and giving us their the
ir experience. Email check up at C.B.C. dot ca or you can find us on Twitter an
d Facebook but my next guest is a clinical psychologist and assistant professor
in the Department of Psychology at Lakehead University and the Northern Ontario
School of Medicine. Christopher Marsh quassia is a member of the pace plot firs
t nation and Canada Research Chair in indigenous mental health and addiction. H
e's in Thunder Bay Ontario I mean Christopher why are you doing today. Doing re
ally well it what are the main challenges to meeting mental health needs in the
communities you serve Christopher. Well that's a good question. You know I thi
nk just listening to the experience of the last last two callers really highligh
ts that you know when people are experiencing difficulties. You know the things
that they're experiencing or are are can be very very difficult to manage and a
nd sometimes it's not always clear. You know where to where to go to access the
kinds of things that that you know may be of help the communities that I work w
ith. I mean I work with the First Nations. And you know there is there's a lot
of the challenges that the communities often face. You know from systems of se
rvice to lack of access. Sometimes there's you know geographic distance and mak
e make service unavailable. Sometimes there's you know in flexibility in fundin
g mechanisms such that you know communities. You know and have have difficulty
shuffling resources and capacity into places where they need to do in a timely w
ay. There's difficulties with having you know services and treatment available
that are sort of pay attention in the context but also pay attention to culture.
So you know I think that overall you know what we know is that it's really a c
hallenge. There's a lot of people who are working very very hard to to solve th
ese issues and there's a lot of people who are you know going to really really d
ifficult times that that that require the supports I want to ask you about suici
de. Christopher because I mean that there have been suicides in Manitoba First
Nations in the in the past couple weeks and then at the beginning in January the
re were there were suicides and Scotchmen first nations that came forth of the m
edia the Liberals last year voted to make the youth suicide crisis and indigenou
s communities a top priority. What's come of that resolution from your perspect
ive. Well I mean it's a good question. I think I think in order to understand
things like suicide crisis we have to understand things a lot broader than we're
currently currently doing you know suicide is is is often conceptualized sort o
f as an individual you know difference variable or something right. There's peo
ple who have a mental health difficulty or they've experienced some trauma and t
hen we try to ensure that that if they become suicidal that they that they don't
commit suicide. So we think about suicide as being you know response to diffic
ult you know situations overwhelming and so he does the feeling of overwhelm out
of someone's coping. You know there's we start to think really really broadly
you know when we talk to people in communities. You know and this was present e
ven on C.B.C. last year during one of the crises you know a young woman from fro
m the north said you know the housing and the water and these issues and the sui
cides are all all related and then the response from the system is is individual
counselors for the people who are at risk of suicide and then and that's an imp
ortant thing for people who are in a time of crisis. There's a lot of other thi
ngs that that that the need to be sort of addressed in and you know the systems
and the priorities of the government to address these things I think I think the
re's people work really hard at I don't know they were there yet. You know ther
e's a lot of conversation shift happening so on one hand we have suicide prevent
ion going on on the other hand we have things that more fall into categories of
life promotion. Right. So it's a question of how do we how do we stop somebody
from committing suicide and on the flipside of that. How do we create communit
ies environments where people wish to be alive and can thrive in and I think tha
t again. This requires kind of a whole system. Look at all the different thing
s that that can lead people to feeling that that level of distress when you say
life promotion What do you mean by that phrase. Well it's sort of like. You kn
ow sort of the idea that that that people and communities and families all have
things that they do that that they find meaning in their life and when you have
those thing is you you you tend to not necessarily consider suicide as a as a wa
y of managing really really distressing situations. So it's like trying to find
 ways in which communities can draw together and and do the things that they can
do to make a place where people want to be alive and that's that's a bit of a d
ifferent shifted and it's a shift towards focusing on the strengths the communit
y the strengths that people have and supporting supporting the difficulties of c
ourse but also focusing on the strengths and where those capacities exist to rea
lly trying to foster them. So what are examples of those kinds of strikes. Wel
l there's there's lots of things to make. Be an individual person in a school w
ho you know works really hard to ensure that the kids have something to do after
ward in terms of like a program right and maybe they do that without any program
money or anything to do it you know we know folks like like this in communities
maybe it's you know maybe it's leadership working really hard to ensure that yo
u know where there is a need for infrastructure for some some other thing that t
he young people are talking about that. That's that's taking care of. Maybe it
's you know individual skills and talents that the kids have that we bring toget
her in and have them develop the kinds of things that they'd like to do right.
So it can really take on a lot of different flavors depending upon you know the
people the communities and who's involved so you know and I think it is part of
that that other other part of thinking right where it's it's yes we do want to p
revent people from committing suicide. And when people are at risk. We need to
take care of them and we need to ensure that they have access to the things the
y need but the same time we also have to think about you know how do we create e
nvironments that are that are sustainable and and people can find meaning in and
be hopeful about you've also tweeted this tweet caught my eye. He said humilit
y is key in suicide prevention. How so. Well you know I think it's not just no
t just the suicide prevention that you know that comment was a little broader an
d that you know I think we always in our approaches we always sort of feel as th
ough we're on the cutting edge of of of the latest developments. But if you loo
k back at any any discovery any and you go back in any field maybe fifty years y
ou'll find some things that that we were doing that you go wow I can't believe I
can't believe that was that was what we did or that's how we used to address th
is and you know sometimes we don't have that. That ability to look back and say
and or to look at this time now and say you know what in twenty or thirty or fi
fty years maybe some of the things that were. Doing right now aren't aren't all
that helpful. So the humility isn't it. It's like you know recognizing that w
hat we're doing right now is is the very best that we can be doing right now but
it can always be better and there's always a chance that what we're doing right
now is maybe not not not the very best. Right. So I think having that humilit
y and really you know allowing that to motivate us to make sure that whatever we
do we're doing to the very highest standard and whatever we do we're doing you
know with the with the almost kind of attention to past present and future. And
finally Christopher what kind of recommendations are you making to the federal
government for tangible improvements to mental health for Indigenous communities
. Well I mean yeah there's a lot of things that we've talked to one of it one o
f the things that I that I always recommend is is it is. Yeah I mean it's impor
tant to engage you know the experts quote unquote. It's not a favorite word of
mine certainly but it's also really really important to listen to the people in
the communities it's really important to listen to the people who are having the
experiences like your your last caller it's important. Listen to all those fol
ks and the other the other piece I'm talking that I talk a lot about is we need
to really really expand our our conceptual model of what mental health difficult
ies are yes it it's true that you know there are sort of individual factors and
there's biological factors on all these other things but there's also a huge amo
unt of of other things that we know explain a lot of a lot of the difficulties o
f people have and that goes way beyond just any any one individual difference ki
nd of variable. So you know when we talk about things like mental health addict
ion. You know we also talk about things like adverse childhood experiences and
we also have to talk about things like housing and we also if you talk about thi
ngs like clean water and and you know you can see very very quickly that when yo
u begin expanding that can suck. Well model the people that have to be at the t
able then cross a lot of different jurisdictions a lot of different government s
tructures and the question becomes far more sort of broad in terms of what our t
argets of intervention should be so yes you know we could be we could be giving
every single person there you know every single person a counselor and that's an
d that's that's the important part that's you know that's an important part but
we also need to be looking at those other pieces in the last thing I'm talking a
lot of though is that it's not just enough to ensure that everybody has you kno
w everyone who has a difficulty as a counselor to talk to and they need that but
that person also has to you know be doing things that we know work right now th
ere's a lot of variation in terms of what people might get when they get a servi
ce. Some of the some people may get a service that you know has a huge amount o
f evidence behind it. With respect to its effectiveness for the kinds of presen
tations that people are coming to the clinic for there are other places where yo
u go in and you make it something that. You know there's no data that that that
's that's necessarily going to be helpful thing. So for going to invest we need
to invest in the things we need to start with the things that we know work and
then and then and then try to build from there. Christopher for joining us. Th
ank you Christopher my squash is a member of the Paris plant First Nation and Ca
nada Research Chair in indigenous mental health and addiction. He spoke to us f
rom under Bay Ontario. This is Cross Country Checkup I'm Duncan McCue we're tal
king about mental health services what do you think of our discussion so far. D
o people suffering from mental illness get enough support in Canada. Have you b
een able to find the support you need when you needed it. Call us at one triple
eight four one six eight three three three or you can find us on Twitter and Fa
cebook search for checkup C.B.C. James James from and to Scotia wrote to us on T
witter. He says the support system in place leaves many to fend for themselves
while waiting for help. Alan Drummond in Perth Ontario sent his thoughts on Twi
tter as a physician I struggle on a daily basis to obtain care for my patients.
It is patients. It's particularly problematic for children and youth in the ho
w we like to hear from you if you've got a child that's going through the. The
mental health system or if you're a child yourself who's dealing with mental hea
lth issues give us a ring. Let's go to own Christianson who's calling from Live
rpool Nova Scotia Hi own welcome Christian one Christian. Hi own welcome to Cro
ss Country Checkup night Thanks for having me. Are people getting the mental he
alth support that they need. I don't think so no I believe that right now peopl
e are being medicated very highly without any alternatives and it's pretty much
a sentence of get on the pills and remain on the pills until whatever it is that
you but you really deserve and I understand that you suffer from mental illness
yourself what's why do you would tell me about it. It was a diagnosis anxiety
depression is order do Lakas or tone and at age thirteen runs in my family and I
was medicated heavily at the age of thirteen. I have been on probably twenty o
r thirty different medications. Throughout my life until just recently when I l
ost some employment lost my benefits and US could no longer afford medications h
e said he said the you felt that it was just you know the system is just pushing
pills why why did you feel what you feel that way. Well because I wasn't reall
y receiving any support in any other form or fashion. I was just given more and
more medications different medications the dose of the medications you know com
bine them with other medications to the point where I was even being recommended
to take into psychotics I truly believe that there's much more to the problem t
han just met. You know through self study and reflection. I've you know done a
lot to increase my own endorsements or physical activity and and you know yoga
and meditation and you know try to enlighten myself and the other ways that we c
an deal with these things you know it like so many other problems chronic pain i
ncluded. We're just medicating we're not we're not actually solving the problem
we're just we're just covering it up. What kind of reaction did you get from f
rom physicians when when you said you know the medications are working or that's
too much. I don't want to you know the twenty pills that the that seems like a
n awful lot you know many times because like many the caller's I live in a rural
place. I was dealing with general practitioners who really didn't have a backg
round that was suited to the task of finding the right medication or the right m
ix of medication or treatment. So you know many times it was just OK Well that
was not working. Let's try something else. Let's try another pill. There was
never any discussion really a boat allergic pitcher and how to actually you know
progress myself to a point where I didn't have to be so heavily medicated and y
ou know and I think that because of the fact that I was medicated at such a youn
g age I didn't even know what it was to feel normal. You know I how do you base
line what you should feel like you know because normal depressed feelings or sad
ness things are normal but if you're on heavy medication from the age of thirtee
n instead of puberty. How do you have a baseline on what normality is you don't
eat can even perceive what it is to have a normal or rational thought when you'
ve been medicated. Most of your life to the point where you know I'm now at a p
oint in my life where I'm figuring out what it is to be sad and what are you dep
ressed because before it was all the same. And as someone who's been through th
at system. We know what advice would. Because we know that there are so many y
outh. You know fourteen to nineteen least one in five to ten to twenty percent
of Canadian youth are going through some sort of mental health illness What advi
ce would you give for from perspective of a guy that's been there. What advice
would you give one on one. What would help you you know reach out reach out you
know on the internet reach out and educate yourself. You know find out what al
ternative measures can be taken. Other than just you know the sense of pills be
cause it's just a slippery slope. You just end up taking more and more and more
and more and you know eventually here to a point where you can't do anymore and
for myself you know it led to bad addictions and the addiction has led to legal
problems and legal problems lead to more depression and it's just a vicious cir
cle. You know the black dogs are constantly circling when they when they come i
n on you and when they attack you you you medicate yourself and any way shape or
form that you can and it just exacerbates the problem. It does nothing to solv
e it. How you do know how are you doing now on what you know how you honest. L
ast week has been tough. I just lost another another job and I was left in a st
ate of banks. You know I have sandwiches support now and much to live for but n
ot not reverting back to you know medicating myself. It's a difficult thing. I
t's a day to day struggle and I feel the pain of callers I mean a seventy seven
year old woman who's been battling this for sixty some years and you know it's s
till not found the proper quote unquote cocktail of medications you know dealing
with law enforcement who are you know ill equipped best. To deal with these pr
oblems because you know in many cases they don't they don't even know what it is
that they're dealing with you know and to be fair to them. I understand that t
hey have to protect themselves and that you know they have to go home to their f
amilies and be safe for the taking as preventative measures but I mean war when
you're dealing with somebody that's not kind of state and anxious. You know han
dcuffing them and dealing with them and roughly you know just doing nothing to h
elp the situation is just going to cause you know much worse things to occur tha
t person could last show didn't end up with all kinds of charges. Yeah well own
thank you for sharing your story and you know what that's a good segue because
we've got a former police officer on the line now we're going to go to him. Tha
nks very much on. Patrick Tracey is calling from Vancouver Hi Patrick welcome t
o Cross Country Checkup. Thank you. I just want to say really appreciate your
previous callers comments they were well put and I just wish the best for him.
I do to bed and he was he was saying you know it is difficult when when those wh
o are mentally ill come into contact with with the police and with the justice s
ystem you're you're retired police officer what what's what in your experience.
Well I think there's this kind of a myth. That's out there that says that firs
t UK police are not well prepared to deal with people who have mental illness is
sues and that they and then there's another myth that there are these crisis uni
ts that are out in police in the police world and there are there to come any ti
me when there's an issue and there's a little bit of truth. Obviously when ther
e's there's the there are these myths but when I started policing in one thousan
d nine hundred three with Edmonton police service. We had scenario based traini
ng in our training and it was ongoing throughout my career where by we would hav
e scenarios with different issues people with mental illness issues or there wou
ld be a psychologist there to assess and the people that we were when countering
 in these scenarios were actors and there would be a psychologist there to asses
s how the police officers did in. And then there was feedback and. But the fac
t is is that one. Please go to any call the number one paramount issue and Owen
actually did talk about it by your previous callers is safety and its safety no
t just for the police officer but it's safety for the people that are involved i
n it as well as that particular subject and no it's if somebody is like I live o
ne hundred feet off tastings and if somebody is out there waving a chain around
cars when the police come up. Then the public do not want them or need them to
stop and say Excuse me. Are you skipped a friend of her you bipolar dissociativ
e disorder or your multiple personality. No that may happen after they get cont
rol of the person swinging the chain around that cars and people they have to ta
ke physical control and that the optics of that are never acceptable they're nev
er pretty We had it. We had an incident at the college that I teach up this wee
k where one of the students frankly their meds were not right. Came out of the
classroom and started punching and kicking a teacher. It took four people to ho
ld that student and when the police came the police did not start with an assess
ment of their mental health condition the police had to take control of that per
son and then she then lashed out and started kicking at the police officers and
punching them. And so they have to up the use of force different also been some
pretty well documented cases though across Canada Patrick where where you know
there have been crisis situations that perhaps could have been diffused by by pr
operly trained mental health crisis teams. You know a bit Police crisis teams w
ait and unfortunately ended in tragedy a great. Oh I couldn't agree more. I me
an and you need even if you have a team there. It could have gone sideways beca
use you're dealing with the human element you're dealing with people who are bro
ken and they're in pain and they're unpredictable. And so I couldn't agree more
. I mean I've worked in teams with nurses with social workers as my partners an
d we're not always as I said with talking previously they're not always availabl
e though to get to that call and so if there are thirty minutes away and you hav
e a general patrol response unit that's five minutes away but somebody is again
smashing windows out of a house or chasing people around the house with a weapon
. It would be negligible in foolhardy to wait until the you know the crisis car
came to deal with that because there could be just untold damage an injury that
could have been avoided. Monday I mean it's not a there's no ideal. So as a a
s a fellow that's that's been out there on the front lines and dealing you know
that's when that's this is where folks with mental illness often come into into
contact with with the police. Well what would be what would you recommend as so
mething that needs to change in Canada but what do you think their recommended n
eeds to be changes actually once we get them to the hospital because I'm going t
o tell you today in our country. There will be untold dozens if not hundreds of
cases where people will finally gather the courage to four nine one one because
they have a family member who is behaving in appropriately or dangerously the p
olice and paramedics will come. They will take the person under a form ten or a
mental health arrest warrant or a mental health arrest protocol which incidenta
lly when you're arrested in that way you get no prick criminal record out of it
and I always would tell people if I was taking them to the hospital you were not
in trouble with the police. I always am. When I train police I would always t
ell them make sure you tell the clients are not in trouble with the police. It'
s for their safety. Having said that there are hundreds of cases in in our coun
try today where the police will get them to the hospital and downtown within six
hours five hours that person will be back out on the street either going. To a
bridge to jump off of or going back to their home to cause problems and so once
they're into a medical facility. It's also another myth that they're going to b
e kept there for any any amount of time because they're assessed and it comes ba
ck two to two moneys and protocols. I believe the hospitals are doing the best
they can. I'm not trying to struggle just trying them but they're doing the bes
t they can and they're under rules that you know if these people appear to have
any kind of a sense of normalcy I guess we can send them home. Well guess what
they go and they find a bridge or they go home and they cause more problems. So
let's be the number one thing. Once we finally get into an institution. We ne
ed to be able to have a more busway of you know approaching their their problems
and helping them out and kind of well I thought I thank you for sharing your ex
perience as a cop Patrick thank you very much. Hilary Knight e-mailed us the di
scussion of mental health would benefit from an injection of reality. Well mean
ing but fuzzy thinking mental health advocates persist in using the term stigma
as though the only problem with mental illness is public perception most mentall
y ill people are no danger to others but some demonstrably are lumping paranoid
schizophrenia together with mild depression is like speaking of stage four cance
r and hangnails in the same breath. We can't have a useful debate until we ackn
owledge this truth when you think about what Hilary had say give us a call one t
riple eight four one six eight three three three. My next guest is someone who
has worked in the mental health field for many years as a frontline psychiatric
nurse administrator researcher and educator. Louise Bradley is now president an
d C.E.O. of the Mental Health Commission of Canada. She's on the phone today fr
om Ottawa hello Luis Good afternoon cross country check ups been doing programs
about mental health for more than a decade. A Senate report out of the shadows
at last compared the way mental illness is treated to leprosy. That was back in
two thousand and six as you listen to the show today the do you think there's b
een any pro. Grass on that front. Certainly listening to the show today it doe
sn't sound like there has been very much progress and we do have a long way to g
o but in fact. Since Michael Kirby report came out out of the shadows. There h
ave been some significant changes the country now has a national mental health s
trategy as well as most of the provinces and territories. We are now talking ab
out looking at mental health in the workplace psychological faith D. And with re
gard to your last speaker police and first responders. I now have programs that
are provided to them that not only look at the interactions between themselves
and people with mental health problems but the mental health of police officers
themselves which is a bold step forward and we also are seeing a lot for the fir
st time. Canada's health record discussions have included mental health as a pr
iority a huge announcement this week by the Ontario government with huge injecti
on of funding by. As I said we've still a long way to go mental health is nowhe
re near on of having parity with the rest of the health care system we've heard
from a lot of our our social media folks that are reaching out to us the family
members and bearing a lot of the burden of care. What's the best way. Louise B
radley to provide community support and access to help when people need it most.
Well I mean that's a complex situation with a complex answer and I think that
when we talk about stigma be a person who just wrote in I think is certainly rig
ht and that it goes beyond stigma. But stigma certainly the underlying concept
between all of this. So we have. In Canada when I speak to other people in oth
er countries they say to me oh you're doing such and such. This is a great prog
ram and I had to try to explain to them that it's only happening in in one or ma
ybe three or four provinces. It's not happening across the country. So we do h
ave pockets of excellence and we have great programs for family members that are
event health based and other community programs but they are scattered across t
he country and we have heard somebody refer to us as a nation of carpenters with
no architect because we don't really have a system. We're not comparing data f
rom province to province and certainly it's my hope with the health record if it
moves forward is that there will be a small number of indicators that we can ac
tually measure because what we're hearing today there are still a lot of difficu
lties and there are we have a long way to go by it. We're not measuring it appr
opriately. We won't really know where the problems are and where we need to inj
ect services and innovation and funding. Though the Mental Health Coalition rec
ently kind of put forth a roadmap and one of their recommendations was it was ex
panding public health to include treatment by psychologists and therapists do we
have a two tier mental health system right now. Well I think some would certai
nly say we do. And so far as we we have psychologists. And others who are able
to provide psychotherapies which we know are extremely effective for certain il
lnesses and yet it's really only people who can afford usually to pay privately
that has access to those people. So in that sense yes we do but there are I thi
nk there are ways in which we can. Look at including those type of services wit
hin our funded system. What about we also heard at the beginning of our show we
had young woman who set up a an online site to help for people to reach out and
get counseling online. How can a mental health help help the needs of some peo
ple. Well it's certainly it holds great promise. There have it's still early d
ays but he health you need mental health in particular has shown to be quite eff
ective in certain situations particularly with mild moderate illnesses which the
n help to free up system for the more complex illnesses but in some cases it's a
ctually proven to be as effective if not more as face to face there the lending
of the two is being looked at in many situations. Again there are pockets of ex
cellence There's a wonderful program in Nova Scotia called strongest families.
That's being provided to Nova Scotians and a few other provinces and even lookin
g at transporting it to other provinces to other countries like New Zealand and
yet we're not taking advantage of it across the country it's shown to really red
uce wait times and is highly effective particularly for families and parents wit
h children with mental health problems if it's working for families. If it's re
ducing wait times why aren't why are we seeing it right across the country. Wel
l that that's my point exactly and this is why I'm really hoping that in the upc
oming discussions that we are now having for the first time on funding up mental
health dollars are one thing it's how do we spend the next issue and we want to
make sure that if we are injecting fun into the system that they're used in the
most cost effective way so that they meant to help. Commission. We have tried
with our knowledge exchange center to spread this information and get it across
the country but I think we need something that a little more formalized. And a
little more organized. In order to share this information and so that programs
like that as you say can be provided right across the country. What's locking
in where we're spending the money right now. Well to begin with. We don't have
enough money. I'm delighted to see the federal government and certain provinci
al governments like Ontario providing additional funds and that's great but Cana
da still spends the least amount of health care dollars on mental health of any
of the developed countries we spend approximately seven percent of the U.K. for
example spends about thirteen percent but you're also saying it's not being dire
cted in the right place. Correct. That's correct. So why why why is awfully w
ell I think there are a number of reasons as to why that's happening. Some of i
t is simply not knowing exactly what to do we. And we haven't really been talki
ng about mental health all that long as we've been hearing it. We've been talki
ng about stigma and and people going for help when they need it but that's been
fairly recent. Over the last ten years we see and hear about mental health come
up every day of the week and so more and more people are wanting and needing to
go for help and willing to own a can find that they're being put on a wait list
in some cases as much as eighteen months and longer. And so the access to serv
ices has to change we can't continue to provide services in the same way that we
have thought about it in the past there has to be the. I find this directed to
wards innovation. So that we can look at different and better ways of providing
services. Canada is a huge country we're never going to have enough services o
n every corner to meet the needs. So we have to find new and different ways of
providing it. And so that requires a real concerted effort in making sure that
mental health is looked at in the same way as any other physical illness but the
stigma of mental illness has really set us back and it's going to be quite some
time before we're able to get past it but we are making progress and we're talk
ing about the responsibilities a government may have in terms of funding and aga
in the Mental Health Coalition recommended a Mental Health Innovation Fund but b
ut I can't let you goal without you know we've had a couple callers who called i
n and said Talk about the difficulty of bringing forth a mental illness in the w
orkplace and I know that something that's close to your heart too. You know wha
t. Why is that so important to talk about mental health in the workplace and do
employers have a responsibility here. Employers do along with employees and I
think you know talking getting mental health in the workplace is probably one of
the most transformational piece of work we have done up until very recently and
still is the case in many workplaces is that if you have a problem. The last t
hing you're going to do is talk about it to your employer that and so people sho
w up for work when they're not producing to the best of their ability at term we
call presenteeism. And they aren't going to go for help but if it's part of ev
ery day work in your office and it's being talked about and you're encouraged to
get help. I you're you're more likely to get help yourself. But then that spi
lls over into going home and talking about it at the dinner table and so and the
n it reaches out to the entire. Community. So when we come back about the work
place. It is not just the workplace. That is benefiting it has the potential o
f benefitting the entire community. So having psychological health and safety a
s part of Occupational Health and Safety is a huge step forward and allows us to
more openly talk about mental health and then to talk about ways in which to.
Get the help that is needed and the ways in which we can go about doing that. T
hanks for joining us today. LOUISE. Thank you for having me. Louise Bradley h
as worked in the mental health field for many years as a frontline psychiatric n
urse administrator research and educator. She's now president and C.E.O. of the
Mental Health Commission of Canada and she spoke to us from Ottawa. This is Cr
oss Country Checkup I'm Dokken McHugh we're talking about mental health. What's
been your experience do people suffering from mental illness get enough support
in Canada. Call us one triple eight four one six eight three three three or yo
u can find us at Twitter and Facebook or on our website C.B.C. check up. There'
s lots more stuff there as well as a live online chat. Alex Lam Brecht is calli
ng from Yellowknife Northwest Territories Hi Alex. Welcome to Cross Country Che
ckup on to nice to finally speak you about it. I'm glad that you got through.
So what's been your experience with mental health. My experience of mental heal
th. You know started at a very young age when I really just didn't quite unders
tand the world or understand myself so being a very young child and moving down
to a place like United States where I spaced. You know in school and socially v
ery different dynamics than what I had growing up with you know what I've never
experienced. Harassed or bullied about like oh you're wearing the same jeans in
a week and you know that so but for a young comedian show on a fairly innocent
sound with little or it influences or is I mean you know that really shaped my w
orldview when when I came. Back of my to visit in two thousand and two I didn't
want to go back to the States because I felt safer in this community because th
e people I knew were not going to attack my outer tire or appearance. And then
you know a lot of those experiences carry through with me throughout my early ad
ulthood into my early twenty's my mid twenty's and it hasn't been until maybe th
e last five or six years that I've been able to really get a grasp of what those
issues were and I went back and forth between anxiety and depression and all so
rts of mental illnesses finding out that it anxiety depression runs in my family
to some extent but really what I was facing with I was dealing with for all tho
se years was P.T.S.D. and it took me a very long time to realize that through th
e help of various doctors mental health professionals and I did get the help tha
t I I needed but it was much later in my life when I had those benefits through
my employer but when I was working dogs where I didn't have those benefits like
I had only money enough money to pay my bills and I didn't have that extra money
to go and paid you know someone over one hundred dollars an hour to listen to m
e and you know unfortunately at that time expectation is if I'm paying you know
two hundred dollars an hour. I want results immediately I think most people wou
ld be in that that's not mind mindset. But in reality mental health. It takes
a very long time. Hugh to get over it and it really depends on the a support ne
twork that you have the benefits that you have to your work or through the benef
its that you have in your community and if you're locking any one of those suppo
rts items in your network. It's going for more C.B.C. podcasts go to C.B.C. dot
ca slash podcasts. }
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