INTERVIEW BY JGPAIRMAN
Conversations with some who did,
and one who still does,
lives out of Melbourne. He
1 k-name Mata Hari before
e \d World War, in Perth. There
was a cypress fence behind the
bowling green which at
meeting place for those in the know. It
was the custom for someone to keep
watch and this task often fell to him.
One night he kept a look-out for his
mate Billie George and afterwards Billie
started calling him “Mata Hari, the
bloody spy”.
He enlisted in the AIF in 1940 and
was captured in Crete in 1941. He was
held POW until the end of the war.
Were you a late starter?
I knew I was camp when I was 11. Another school boy
forced me into it and I thought, “Gee, I liked that”. There
PINKYSMITH: CHAMPION Boxer Were @ few of us around in those days in Perth. It was.
very hidden but you got to know where to meet other:
blokes,
Why did you enlist?
Before the war I wanted to join the navy. When war did’
break out all my mates joined up. If your mates went, you
‘went, I volunteered.
Did you have to put up a front in the army?
You had to be very careful: act butch until you found the
cones like you. You could always tell the ones it was safe
to be with, It was amazing the number of gay people in the
POW camp. Well, not so much gay as bisexual. Because
they couldn't get a woman they'd have a man.
Before I was captured I had one bloke in my army unit,
a terrific bloke. We were lying in the back of my truck (he
was my swamper, my off-sider). This was at night and
‘was pretty hot - in Greece we were. We had shorts on and,
nothing else. We lay there watching the bombing of
Athens. He looked at me and said, “Come on, let’s have it”.
36 OUTRAGE DECEMBERsaid, “What if we get Killed?” We were close to the
bombing. “Why worry”, he said, “we might as well be
happy while we've got the chance.” He got married after
the war.
I met a very good looking bloke near an army camp in
Palestine, in an army picture theatre. There was this bloke
sitting next to me with the most beautiful legs on him.
tle tight shorts, not the army regulation bloomers. I
kept looking, a couple of times he looked at me and then
the knees came together. I looked down and he had a
raging fat sticking out of his shorts. I just looked up at him
and I grinned, He winked. We ended up out of bounds
‘over the railway line. Very dangerous but we took the risk
Stripped right off, we did.
How were you taken prisoner?
We missed the last boat out of Crete. I was in the
ambulance service taking the wounded to the port. We did
‘one last trip and missed the boat. That was the longest
night of my life. We didn’t know if we would be shot, or
‘what would happen. We stayed behind a barbed wire fence
without any food until we were captured and sent to
Salonika. Then we were transported to Stalag 383, in
Germany. Salonika was the hell of POW camps. If we had
been treated like that on the train and in stalag, we
‘wouldn't have come home.
Were you known as Mata Hari in stalag?
Not there, no. (Laughter). Though in stalag I teamed up
with one bloke in particular. I told him and he laughed
ce mad. He was an English soldier. He was a beautiful
bloke, a really lovely bloke. Stalag was a big POW camp,
well run, with over three thousand prisoners, We had
activities. We both helped out in the shows, so we had a
chance to be together behind the curtain. We kept each
‘other company right up until the Americans released us
in 1945, There was no privacy in the camp but it was
‘amazing how we coped. I told him I was camp and he said,
“who am I to say I don't approve”. Teaming up made all
the difference. A lot of men did that, bereft of female
‘company.
After the war he became a policeman in Birmingham.
Got married, We corresponded right up to his death a few:
years ago, but we never saw each other again.
What was life like in the camp?
‘We were lucky. We had plenty to do. Sports, plays, dances,
We did The Mikado. The little bloke who took the part of
Yum Yum was camp. Pinky Smith we called him, Well, one
bloke challenged Pinky once and said, “You're a bloody
poofter”. Pinky said, “Yes I could be couldn't, But”, he said,
“if you want to try yourself out, mate, I'l take you on in
anything, Boxing?”, he said,
This other bloke said, “You couldn't box your way out of
paper bag’.
“Tell him,” Pinky said to a mate, “Featherweight
champion of the British Army for three years", was the
reply.
‘The other bloke soon changed his tune and left Pinky
alone. remember Pinky said, “Arent they bloody bastards. 1
know I'm queer. I don't need them to tell me”.
So Pinky was Yum Yum, We made wigs from string:
someone would tease out the string We made the sets
from all bits and pieces. Among three thousand prisoners,
you had carpenters, tailors, musicians. We put on some
good shows.
Did you think you would every be freed?
We used to say that at least a bloke in jail knew how long
he had to serve; we didn’t. The Americans released us,
‘The Germans were in a shambles. They marched us out
‘of the camp, some up to two hundred miles away. I knew
that the English soldier and I would be separated. We had
remembered each other's address because we knew that
‘would happen. I went with the Americans to France and
hhe was sent back to England. We never saw-each other
again,
Do you have much to do with the RSL?
1 am very angry with Ruxton, When Ruxton said that
there were no homosexuals in the army, 1 wrote him a
letter. I said, “As an RSL member, an ex-POW and
service man, I apparently have news for you. There were
thousands of ex-servicemen who were camp. I think I
went through three hundred of them myself, So I have
news for you”,
38 OUTRAGE DECEMBERil grew up in an outback New South
town. He married young, and was
‘conscripted in 1969. He served in the
al ‘was on active duty in Vietnam.
_ army and
did you take being conscripted and going to
Tyent into the army thinking it was something you
to dot a duty to your country. It's easy to say with
hindsight, but I certainly woulda take that attitude today
-
Did you marry before going to Vietnam?
‘Yes, I guess partly because of the isolation of my
‘upbringing I was really a very sexually confused young
man. I can recall in my late teens being aware that I
‘wasn't thinking the same things other guys were thinking.
I couldn't defin ‘There was ho gay community there,
certainly not back then, So I did the thing that was
‘expected of me, and got married,
How bad was National Service?
‘The first thing that really hit me was going from home to
“Kapooka Basic Training Camp. Other guys maybe didn't
find it so tough because of their upbringing. I had to do
“an instant transition from a pretty protected childhood into
Bh Wales nd Cha |
a situation where I had to fend for myself. Those first few
‘weeks at Kapooka were absolute hell. The whole thing of
being thrust into a situation with people I didn't
‘necessarily like, found nothing in common with, it was very
hard, 1 had to eat, sleep and work with them, twenty four
hours a day whether [liked it or not.
When did you begin to find out you were gay?
Th Vietnam. 1 was exposed to so many things. 1 became
Aware that some of the guys around me were gay, but you
Kept this to yourself. ‘The service frowned upon gay
Activity. I knew that if your were caught the reprisals from
the €O and the others guys could be pretty nasty. Terrible
harrassment, In Vietnam you had no opportunity to be
alone with anyone. Our time was controlled. No privacy
whatever. I was fortunate in that one of the tasks I was
given required me to spend time locked in a hut with
another soldier. A chance in a million. He was a very
intelligent young man and a bit of a rebel. I liked him.
Cee
‘ORIGINAL PHOTOS OF STALAG PRODUCTIONS
Before Vietnam he had served a seven day jail sentence.
Sentences like that were common then to clear the way for
National Service. He told me how he was “raped in jail.
Before he was sent to Vietnam he was engaged to a gitl
he was obviously very much in love with, He was a man
with an enormous sexual appetite, but in Vietnam he
‘wouldn't go to places where you could meet bar girls. He
was terrified of getting VD. But he wanted sex. He
decided that in fact he had got sexual pleasure from his,
jail experience. So sex with me became his only outlet.
‘That's how it happened. For some months we had sex in
the hut, He wrote home to arrange his marriage. I wrote
to my. wife, A most unusual situation. A great
companionship did grow between us. We helped each
other through the war.
I don’t think being gay had any effect on how you
handled Vietnam. The war was the paramount thing. You
couldn't ignore it. It was your life. My thoughts were on
surviving, not on the guy who might be marching
alongside, You depended on him for your life, To put your
hand down his pants was not really the thing you had on
your mind.
Did anyone in the unit suspect you two?
No, you had to be very careful. I am aware of one guy in
our unit who was caught out. One particular night a group
of them got high on grass and one of them said he gave
better head than any bar girl. He apparently proved it and
was caught. For the rest of his time in Vietnam he was
harrassed dreadfully. I think the CO was happy to see the
harrassment as a deterrent to anyone else.
How much did the army change you?
It made me tougher. I learned things about myself and
others. I don't think that toughness is all that wonderful
OUTRAGE DECEMBER 39I went from being a naive young man to seeing people's
lives completely disregarded.
After Vietnam, picking up married life was impossible.
1 had been away for two years. We were strangers. I no
longer felt comfortable; I wanted to explore the gay world
I realized I was fooling myself and cheating my wife.
We divorced. She was very bitter. It's only been
recently that she accepted the way I am,
William is a legal officer in the RAAF.
He studied law at Melbourne University
and began officer training in his early
twenties.
Why is homosexuality not tolerated in the defence
forces?
T think the policy they have is squarely caught in the area
‘of homophobia. All the old fears. Because of the
in loco parentis aspect ofthe defence force in training young
People, you have the old fear of homosexuals preying on
minors,
Security is another reason they give: homosexuals are
more open to blackmail. There's Section 33; “conduct
prejudicial to the good order of service discipline”. They
say a homosexual may jeopardize a commander/soldiet
relationship, There is the implication that a young person
may be “converted” to homosexuality. All the myths that
‘make up homophobia, They have an illogical policy.
What happens if a homosexual is detected in the forces?
AA scenario would be something like being called before the
Commanding Officer. He would say that there have been
certain allegations, that he receipt of evidence
indicating that you were a homosexual. He would ask if this
were true or not. You could plead experimental behaviour
and maybe get away with it. If their evidence was strong
they could press a charge under Section 33, or force a
resignation. Often the degree of public knowledge can
influence the inquiry. If you were forced out of the
services because you were a homosexual and had served
Jess than ten years, you would lose financially, lose your
contributions.
Has anyone in the Services suspected you of being gay?
1 can be fairly much myself. I am an officer, so life for me
is easier than for someone of a lower rank. There are a
few people in the system who know about me. My
minders. My confidants.
T don’t have any overt manifestations of being gay. A
lot of gay guys have visible variances in the way they
stand, walk or speak. When you are in the defence forces
you have to be pretty nondescript.
One of the standard questions you are asked at
enlistments “have you ever had sex with aman?” You know,
“Have you ever had TB?” “No.” “Have you had hepatitis?”
“No.” “Have you had sex with a man?”
When I went to the Officer Interview Board, one
squadron leader asked me what I would do if 1 came
across two servicemen having a homosexual experience. I
I made a Freudian slip and said, “Inever
le gay experience before I went into
officer training, 1 was straight, really. 1 always knew 1
could relate to both sexes. Being comfortable with girls,
was a skill 1 acquired. I had crushes on men, though, but
that was in the too hard basket. I didn't know how to deal
with it,
Are you always on guard, to act straight?
1 walk a fine tine. The defence forces’ police investigation
unit in Carlton has a bar they open in the afternoons. 1
sometimes go in for a drink with the boys. I put my
briefcase down at the bar. It might have a copy of a gay
magazine init, or a a gay film festival programme. If they
only knew they would nail me to the wall
‘They talk about this and that. Once they were talking
about trying to penetrate the Gay Ex-Serviceman’s
Association.
What on earth for?
Witchhunting. To see if they could get any current
members.
Tm able to throw in a few intellectual barbs for them
to think about without being detected myself.
Is there much talk about AIDS testing?
At this stage there is no legal right for the defence forces
to test everybody. Testing is compulsory for those who
have applied for enlistment. There is talk of testing special
units, like the ODF (Operational Deployment Forces).
People who are likely to be sent on immediate strategic
operations,
Can life be good in the services?
‘There is an archaic emphasis on discipline. In my job I see
bus loads of kids coming down for induction, They come
off the bus bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, The world is
theirs,
T go back to check on progress next year and see that
bus load of potential has taken on a palor. Spirit knocked
‘out of them.
Some are really cut out for the services. Some just
aren't, Too good, too non-conformist. I take greater
interest in them,
Neil joined the RAAF in Townsville in
1974, He answered a recruitment ad
which said it was “A Whole New Way
of Life”. He was sixteen years old.
You were very young to join the RAAF
1 wouldn't recommend anyone to do it today. I was too
young, Too vulnerable, I wasn’t sure about my feelings,
being gay or not.
1 didn't want to join the Air Force as such. At the time
T had nowhere to go. My father went bankrupt. He was
in hospital. I wanted to go to school but we couldn't afford
it, So I went into the RAAF,
40 ‘OUTRAGE DECEMBER1a whole new way of ife?
beginning. At the medical, the examining
ame to take my jocks off. was standing there
"feeling pretty inadequate when he asked me to bend over,
and he stuck his finger up my arse. 1 was horrified. 1
‘nearly died.
‘The service shapes people. Sixteen is too young to be
{taken and moulded into what they want,
Did you fit in?
T didn't drift into the boozer. I tried to hang out with the
guys and drink on occasions but it just wasn't me. 1
became a bit of an outsider. Sometimes I got called a
‘Poofter. I didn't even know I was one myself at the time,
Thad feelings but I didn't accept them.
1 put everything into my work. I was successful in the
RAAF and became an in-flight computer technician. So 1
‘Was flying around the world chasing subs a lot of the time,
Tid enjoy my job.
Were you happy in the RAAF?
Well I thought: “this is my life”. In the RAAF you weren't
supposed to think about whether you were happy or not.
You were supposed to think “this is your life, Air force
first, air force second, air force third and me fourth’,
T knew one guy who used to cry his eyes out at night.
He just cried and cried. Looking back, he was probably
gay. He got picked on, He was destroyed, he just couldn't
cope. He was discharged after about a year and a half.
Were you picked on?
A few times, The service is very down on homosexuals.
Some exVietnam vets used to come to train us in the
RAAF base at Wagga. It was extremely hot. We were
dressed in greens, carrying rifles and full back packs. This
Vietnam vet called me out of the exercise and roared at
me that I was a poofter. He made me do one hundred
push-ups in front of everyone, Later he came up to me
and said, “Listen, I was with a guy in Vietnam, a chopper
gunner; he got killed. T know what you are going through.
T gave you some hard advice out there. Remember tha, if
you want to stay in the forces”.
Even the Padre went on about homosexuals, When I
joined up, he came to speak to us about the spread of VD.
He said if anyone of us turned up with VD up the arse it
certainly wouldn't have been caught off a toilet seat. All
these kids clapped and roared “poofters, poofters”, I just
sat there and thought, “God, I wonder if I will catch it”.
often went on the rebound and said things like, “
fuckin’ poofters”. I wouldn't react like that today.
When did you have your first gay encounter?
When I was twenty three, my last year in the Air Force. I
had been engaged twice. When I had sex with a gir! I had
to think of some guy in the RAAF to get off. I used to look
at guys.
‘When I was in Adelaide in the summer, on the tarmac,
there were a lot of very attractive guys. Fit and tanned.
There was a lot of mucking around, grabbing crutches. 1
noticed that the good looking guys in shorts were popular
with everybody. That idea of homosexuality and mateship
in Australia was there very strongly.
Tn Malaysia, for my birthday, a few of the guys took
me to a bar and got me a prostitute. She took me upstairs
and this guy who I thought was really attractive came up
with a gitl too, We were in little cubicles, divided by a
flimsy screen. I just didn’t want this girl and after awhile
she said to me, “Do you want a boy?” I nearly answered yes,
when this guy in the next cubicle said, “No, he's straight, he
doesn't do that shit”.
Was it an easy decision to leave the RAAF?
I thought about it for one year. I did nine years in the air
force. The RAAF was all I knew.
I decided to leave when I was posted to Melbourne. 1
hhad more freedom in that posting. 1 wasn't in a base
situation. I took a flat and worked at Defence Force
Support Comand, I met a guy, not from the forces; he
came into my life and it was the closest thing I'd ever
experienced. He couldn't understand my tie to the air
force. Leaving the RAAF was very much a struggle
between myself, my feelings for him, and life in the air
force.
‘OUTRAGE DECEMBER al