An Interview with Olga Neuwirth

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BYY CATHERINE KERKHOFF-SAXON, WITH KATHERINE MICHAELSEN AND OLGA NEUWIRTH P
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This interview took place in November 2015, and is reproduced here in an abridged version. We spoke with Neuwirth about
the persistence of the patriarchy in classical music, the new generation of women composers, and her recent and older
works.

VA N : I F E E L T H E R E S A N I M BA L A N C E B E T W E E N T H E G E N D E R S I N O U R M U S I CA L S O C I E T Y. A R E
Q U OTAS A N D A D D I T I O N A L F U N D I N G F O R F E M A L E CO M P OS E R S H E L P I N G TO I M P ROV E T H E
S I T UAT I O N ?

Pressured by unrealistic expectations its easier for many women today just to perpetuate the male system of
meaning. Some women have, on the other hand, discovered that its time for them to focus on womens issues. But
where were these womenmostly of my generation25 years ago, when I was already questioning how this
hegemonic system of language and power operated in our field? In the 1980s and 1990s you could already read
significant women theorists on the topic; I had been doing so since I was 15. To take Austria as an example: it was
possible to engage with the work of Valie Export and Elfriede Jelinek or many other unflinchingly independentminded, courageous women artists who were creating a diverse body of work. It was all there. Why didnt the
women who are interested in gender issues today speak out then? Are they doing so now only because meanwhile
it has become socially acceptable in our part of the world, and moreover because the topic has finally made its way
to our conservative field of art? Or maybe because they think an involvement in womens issues gives them
personal gratification and power? The crucial question is, when do you raise a critical voice? When do you first
identify the problem? You dont just wait until everyone is already shouting it from the rooftops and you can no
longer be attacked for speaking out.
I addressed the problem of equality over 25 years ago, when nobody else in the stuy Austrian music world
was doing so. In the late 1980s, when I arrived as a female composer on this (male) scene, I was a lone voice in the
wilderness. With my statements I stuck out my neck for many women, especially women composers.
As I said, we are in the world of classical music, which is still white, male, and patriarchalin other words, still
rooted in a hegemonic system. And generally speaking all linguistic systems are still male, because an alternative
female language hasnt been found yet. That is not to say that at times women are not allowed to initiate things.
But for the most part, a confrontational woman who consistently rejects false images and embellished tales of life
and art is not taken seriously, but treated with contempt. In any case, the history of my life as a composer is also
the story of the constant questioning of a womans ability to compose. And thats demoralizing.

00:00

-05:10

AN EXCERPT FROM NEUWIRTHS OPERA LOST HIGHWAY, WITH LIBRETTIST JELINEK. THE WORK IS BASED ON THE FILM BY DAVID LYNCH AND
BARRY GIFFORD, AND WAS PREMIERED IN 2003 IN GRAZ, AUSTRIA.

F RO M YO U R P E R S P E C T I V E , H OW H AS T H E D I S C R E PA N C Y I N T H E T R E AT M E N T O F M E N A N D WO M E N
C H A N G E D I N T H E CO N T E M P O R A RY M U S I C WO R L D S I N C E T H E E A R LY 1 9 9 0 S ?

I think it has become nastier. A more elegant chauvinism prevails. You cant refer to problems directly, or be as
obvious as you could be during the leaden time of the late 1980s. When a woman calls attention to injustices
today, often the following happens: her objections are dismissed as hysteria and then the empire strikes back.
She is kicked out and declared an adversary without further explanation or discussion.
Although Ive often been robbed of my self-esteem and the belief in my ability, Im continually required as a
freelance composer to motivate myself. Furthermore, as a freelance, peripatetic composer, Im completely
dependent on the good will of decision-makers. And Ive often been referred to as That impudent brat! Youre
impudent when youve no claim to power. But does anyone call a (young) man impudent? Instead hes That
gutsy fellow and gutsy in this context means he commands respect and attention. From a hierarchical point of
view, a person is considered impudent only from the bottom up. And so if someone wants to get rid of an
impudent woman, its best if she is rudely disposed of by the gutsy fellows.
After 13 years its still unbelievable to me that my commission for an opera with a wonderful libretto by Jelinek
was canceled. This was not a commission that we begged for; it commission was given freely. Although it had
been publicly announced several times, nobody in the music industry took our side when the commission was
withdrawn for no good reason. This incident was swept under the rug as if it had never happened. And with
regard to my opera Lost Highway, with Export as stage designer, and Jelinek as librettist, the dramaturge sent me
an e-mail, which I have kept: Three women are just too many.

NEUWIRTH IN THE LOST HIGHWAY ROOM, PART OF THE ARCHITECT JEAN NOUVELS THE HOTEL, IN LUZERN, SWITZERLAND
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BYY PRISKA KETTERER

D O YO U T H I N K T H E M A L E - D O M I N AT E D SYST E M R E A C TS T H I S WAY B E CAU S E I T F E E L S T H R E AT E N E D ?

Yes, exactly. No matter what, power feels threatened by art, and apparently especially threatened by a little woman
in a male domain. 25 years ago, discrimination against women composers was even more prevalent. For example,
it sometimes came from the wives of fellow composers, who would say to my face, from woman to woman, so to
speak, Your works are only being played because youre a woman. All the things Ive had to listen to over the past
three decades! And from all possible sides! Its really incredible and depressing. The gentlemen in this field were
evidently shocked that a young impudent brat would dare whittle away at their privileges, not to mention think
for herself, have ideas of her own, and gain recognition. All this was regarded as a transgression, as presumptuous.
T H E R E W E R E AT L E AST S O M E F O R U M S F O R WO M A N CO M P OS E R S I N T H E 1 9 9 0 S , S U C H AS T H E
S E R I E S KO M P O N I ST I N N E N U N D I H R W E R K , W H I C H TO O K P L A C E I N K AS S E L , G E R M A N Y.

I was in Kassel once, when I was about 20 and in search of role models. But it is disillusioning if over so many
years neither the structures, nor the mechanisms of how decisions are made have changed. For example some
proudly broadcast: Now were presenting an all-women festival, or Now were focusing exclusively on women
conductors, and yet if their inner attitude is, Now weve done our part and may continue on as before, nothing
changes. Ultimately, what this means isand this applies to all minorities who have ever stood up for their rights
that dierent people should come together with more openness, understanding, and kindness, and not with
arrogance. Opposites and dierent ways of living and expressing must be able to interact without anyone
constantly having to point this out. Nothing has changed when it comes to the supremacy or dominance of
institutions or power. But I would rather like to experience something new, something that triggers new emotions
and thoughts in me.
T H E N A GA I N , TO A C E RTA I N E X T E N T , T H E R E A R E CO N S O L AT I O N S , F O R I N STA N C E , G R A N TS A N D
CO M P OS I T I O N AWA R DS S P E C I A L LY CO N C E I V E D F O R WO M E N CO M P OS E R S

Which is necessary. At the beginning of a composers development grants are important. But something must
change structurally and I hope one day this will actually happen because if it doesnt then all these years Ive
just been talking until Im blue in the face to no eect. It will have all been for naught if the other side isnt willing
to react in any way, as then such grants and awards are only token gestures. I dont think they change the system.
The important thing would be to create an awareness of the fact that things actually need to change. I mean, where
in the world are all the women composers who are being performed internationally on a large scale?

00:00

-28:13
REMNANTS OF SONGS AT THE BBC PROMS IN 2012.

I G E T T H E I M P R E S S I O N T H AT I N T H E G E N E R AT I O N A F T E R YO U R S , A H I G H E R P RO P O RT I O N O F
WO M E N CO M P OS E R S I S A C T I V E A N D K N OW N TO T H E P U B L I C .

Yes, and thats a good thing. But you shouldnt forget that we were pioneers in all sorts of ways. Women of my
generation had to break through substantial gender barriers, and so theres one thing that makes me sad: I yelled
out into the dark forest, also with regard to the need for an acceptance of contemporary composing per se, and

tried to raise awareness in society for the conditions of so-called contemporary composers and to give them a
voice. But to speak out politically as a female composer in the early 1990s was strongly disapproved of. This was
dismissed by my male colleagues as a distraction from the real concerns of composing. They were, and many
still are, aloof, condescending, and distrustful. Apparently, back then my topics and music were too popular and
as a person I was too unconventional to be taken seriously.
M A N Y YO U N G E R CO M P OS E R S E X P R E S S P O L I T I CA L V I E WS , B U T D O N T N E C E S SA R I LY U N D E R STA N D
T H E H I STO RY B E H I N D T H E M . A R E T H E I R V I E WS M O R E S U P E R F I C I A L?

I can see this as a counter reaction, but I believe that we should be aware of the fact that there is something at our
disposal which has already been established. This is something that can also be traced back to a sociopolitical
context. It wasnt until the 1970s that a number of laws were changed, because until then, at least in Austria, the
law had stated, among other things: It is the wifes duty to obey her husband. Under Chancellor Bruno Kreisky,
the first Minister for Womens Aairs, Johanna Dohnal, worked towards changing this and many other laws for
the benefit of later generations. That is to say, there were people who had made it possible for us women to deal
more freely with our lives and work. If someone was blessed with the good fortune of being born later, when
suddenly more was possiblethats great for them! But I feel like its cynical to want to blank out those who
fought for these things in the first place.
But to get back to music: as a woman composer, youre still discriminated against, though its true, now its
done more cunningly. You can get a bad reputation really quickly, that is, if you dont do as demanded by the
dierent parties and behave as expected. But who wants to live with a bad reputation? Its no fun. There are
consequences, as Ive experienced several times. I believe many people just arent willing to go through this. That
is, unless being critical becomes inthen people are pleased to have such a label attached to them.
P EO P L E T E N D TO C U LT I VAT E A BA D B OY I M A G E O N LY I F I T D O E S N T A C T UA L LY H A R M T H E M ,
W H I C H B R I N G S U S BA C K TO L A N G UA G E : T H E T E R M R E F E R S TO S O M EO N E W H O I S G U TSY , AS YO U
P U T I T , W H O CO M M A N DS R E S P E C T. B U T I S T H E R E S U C H A T H I N G AS A BA D G I R L I M A G E ?

If it ever existed then it was in the punk scene. And thats where I come from. When I was 15 it was what
interested and influenced me. But such an image was permitted only on the fringes, as a subculture, so to speak.
The higher you get in so-called elite and exclusive circles, the more patriarchal and segregative the structures
become.
Because I wanted as a composer to make a statement about the present, I collaborated for a great many years
with Elfriede Jelinek, that superb, headstrong writer. For me the way some opera-house directors have behaved is
an absolute sign of how a standardized male system prevails in my field. Especially in our case, when as two
women (I mean, how many collaborations were there in the 1990s between a woman composer and a woman
writer?)one of whom was quite well known and the other very famouswe were summoned and patronizingly
told: You may now create an opera together. So the writer, in her enthusiasm, writes an amazing, biting text. But
then with the arrogance of the music industry, and heres where their presumptuousness comes in, they state:
Shes not capable of writing a text. I have this in writing! And three months later, this very same writer is
awarded the Nobel Prize in Literature!
In contrast, who would have disinvited an already invited male composer and male Nobel Prize laureate?
Instead, when it comes to one of my male colleagues, to make the work even more important people are
continually stressing that his male librettist is a Nobel Prize contender. But I collaborated with a real Nobel Prize

laureate and we were axed. This says it all, theres no need to add anything more about how women are treated in
the classical music world. And this story didnt happen 25 years ago, but began in 2001 and ended in 2005.

AT THE OPENING OF THE FESTIVAL STEIRISCHER HERBST P

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BYY NICOLAS LACKNER

D O E S O U T WA R D A P P E A R A N C E O R T H E E N A C T M E N T O F F E M I N I N I T Y A L S O P L AY A C E RTA I N RO L E I N
T H E A C C E P TA N C E O F WO M E N ?

Recently, when people saw the cover of the program brochure for the performance of my work Le Encantadas
in Paris, many of them said to me: Oh, youre pretty, too! Of course, why not? I can be pretty too. But do I
constantly have to be identical with myself? I find this absurd, and it has never been something Ive wantedthat
as a woman you should achieve your goal or success by making detours with sex or being cute. Why not just
focus on the work? Of course, as I realize, this was and still is nave of me. I could have always made it easier
for myself.
I H AV E T H E F E E L I N G T H AT T H I S TO P I C H AS A L S O P L AY E D A RO L E I N YO U R WO R K . F O R I N STA N C E ,
T H E S H O RT F I L M D I E S C H P F U N G ( T H E C R E AT I O N ) , W H I C H YO U C R E AT E D TO G E T H E R W I T H
J E L I N E K I N 2 0 1 0 , WO U L D P RO BA B LY N OT H AV E B E E N M A D E I F YO U H A D N T H A D A L L T H E S E
N E GAT I V E E X P E R I E N C E S .

Yes, but thats a dierent topic. For me it has always also been about an ironic refraction, as in Thomas Bernhards
statement about Zwangswitze (forced jokes), which you need in order to cope with a hopeless situation. A
paradox full of absurdity and melancholy, despair and defiance. In eect what Ive always tried to do in my pieces
is to elude categorization, because I dont want to be pigeonholed. Which in turn has, for me at least, meant that I
could not in fact be categorized, and so now people say: With her you never know what youre going to get. As if
multifacetedness lacked quality. However, with my male colleagues its exactly this that gets hyped as great and
masterful.
In fact, theres no fixed concept of gender, rather you can always transform yourself performatively, and this
has for me had an impact on the very language of my music its what I play with, Im always playing with
dierent facets of this.
O F CO U R S E , T H I S D I F F E R E N T I AT I O N H AS A L S O A F F E C T E D YO U R M A L E C H A R A C T E R S , F O R E X A M P L E
J E R E M Y I N B H L A M M S F E ST. I T S A L S O A P PA R E N T I N YO U R E X P LO R AT I O N S O F K
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I,
W H O P E R S O N I F I E S T H E I D E A O F G E N D E R AS P E R F O R M A N C E . I T A L S O P ROT E C TS WO R KS F RO M
B E I N G I N T E R P R E T E D E X C LU S I V E LY F RO M A F E M I N I ST P E R S P E C T I V E , S I N C E T H E M A I N C H A R A C T E R S
B OT H O F W H O M A R E O U TS I D E R S I N S O C I E T Y A R E TO O CO M P L E X A N D CO N T R A D I C TO RY.

Thats true, it just wouldnt work and would be too one-dimensional. You have toand heres where it all starts
grant the other side the same right of existence as your own side. If I demand something, then there has to be the
possibility for the other side to demand something too. Thus complex issues have to be made recognizable and
understandable for many observers, thats really important. But then I need, at least in a music theater work, to let
things collide like in a lab experiment. Like with David Lynch: the stage as catastrophe. But from the critics there
has never been an attempt to examine this aspect of my work in any depth. And so the female composer
L AU
S NOMI
disappears behind her male colleagues in terms of how her works are received, especially her Kbig
works.
P E R H A P S S O M E T H I N G P OS I T I V E I N CO N C LU S I O N ?

Its important that things become fairer for males and females and all others. Im really interested in other people,
which means that for me every situation that I observe, learn, and deal with contributes to the adventure of
composing.

S I N C E O U R I N T E RV I E W , G EO R G F R I E D R I C H H A AS GAV E A N IIIN
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W I N VA N , A N D I WA N T E D TO
AS K YO U W H AT YO U T H O U G H T O F I T. F O R M E , I T R A I S E S S O M E V E RY P RO B L E M AT I C I S S U E S . H E
SAYS T H AT , F O L LOW I N G A D I S C U S S I O N O F A L E C T U R E AT DA R M STA DT , T H AT W E A G R E E D T H AT
T H E M OST F E M I N I N E M U S I C W E H E A R D [ T H E R E ] WAS BY M O RTO N F E L D M A N , A N D T H E M OST
M AS C U L I N E WAS BY O L GA N E U W I RT H . W H AT I S YO U R O P I N I O N O F YO U R CO L L E A G U E S R E M A R KS ?

Actually I would prefer to say nothing about this discriminatory interview. Not that there wouldnt be plenty to
say, as much of it is outrageous. But since this very successful colleagueas he refers to himself in The New York
Timesuses my name to make an extremely stereotypical categorization, I feel I must react.
The sexuality or sexual preference of a person is totally unimportant to me. He should be happy to have finally
found himself. But to publicly boast about it and then use living and dead colleagues for his own agenda and
thereby discredit them is disgusting. He prides himself on being so political,
I N T E RV Ibut
E Whe speaks as if he hes never heard
that there are many dierent kinds of sexuality and ways of living ones life? It is precisely one of the New York
values, as people say in the city, to be tolerant toward others, and accept a wide variety of lifestyles. Whats more,
his remarks reinforce age-old male fantasies that in our classical music business are allowed to remain

uncontested, and therefore become publicly accepted.

Apparently there is a need to preserve misogynist clichs, as was also evident in the omission of positive
adjectives in the critics reviews of my recent concert with the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra in New York. For
decades the orchestra was rightly criticized for having almost no women in its ranks. And now for the first time in
New York this orchestra performs a work by a female composer, excellently, and instead of acknowledging this as
a step in the right direction, it is ignored in order to maintain the negative clich. Apparently the fact that the
number of women in the business is increasing and that they are being oered similar opportunities is threatening
and disturbing for the social order of our classical music world. What for me is truly disappointing, and this is
something I have been aware of for years now, is the fact that, unlike in other fields of art, in our field nobody
protests when an artist expresses such discriminatory views.
U P DAT E D 4 /4 / 2 0 1 6 .

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