When Suzanne asked me to speak and told me what the title of the symposium

was I thought I would

4
00:00:17,820 --> 00:00:21,390
i'm a little bit of an aggressive
stance and and interpret this probably

5
00:00:21,390 --> 00:00:25,860
not the way that many of the previous
speakers who are incredibly organized an

6
00:00:25,860 --> 00:00:29,700
eloquent thoughtful and philosophical I
thought I take sort of an opposite

7
00:00:29,700 --> 00:00:34,199
stance and so the true value of art is
is actually what someone will pay for

8
00:00:34,199 --> 00:00:34,620
it

9
00:00:34,620 --> 00:00:41,190

that's sort of the attack that i'm going

to take so and we can we cannot talk

10
00:00:41,190 --> 00:00:44,489
about that in in all sorts of different
ways so so I'm an art advisor I don't

11
00:00:44,489 --> 00:00:48,390
know if a lot of people know what an art
advisor does a lot of people in the art

12
00:00:48,390 --> 00:00:51,899
world think that an art advisor is kind
of like the lowest person on the totem

13
00:00:51,899 --> 00:00:57,629
pole kind of the scum of the earth in
the the the the entire sort of

14
00:00:57,629 --> 00:01:03,599
transactional kind of relationship
between artists and the ultimate person

15
00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:08,640
who who buys the work so i really am a
middleman in between people who buy work

16
00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:12,360
and the galleries who represent artist
so while i know many artists and I do

17
00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:14,610
many studio visits and i work with many
artists

18
00:01:14,610 --> 00:01:18,810
I don't represent artist I think that my
many colleagues here who are dealers who

19
00:01:18,810 --> 00:01:21,479
represent artists have a much harder job
than I do

20
00:01:21,479 --> 00:01:24,600
running a gallery and running that kind

of business is a very very very

21
00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:29,520
different thing than what I do so I'm
someone who looks at an enormous amount

22
00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:34,470
of contemporary art in many many many
places and I try to find objects and

23
00:01:34,470 --> 00:01:40,110
works of art that match up to to someone
who will actually pay money for that

24
00:01:40,110 --> 00:01:44,280
work of art so I represent a lot of
different types of people who buy art at

25
00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:49,590
all different price levels from five
hundred dollars to the objects in the

26

00:01:49,590 --> 00:01:54,329

seven figures and everything in between
and the market has changed an enormous

27
00:01:54,329 --> 00:02:01,500
amount when i started 11 years ago you
could buy many many things for let's

28
00:02:01,500 --> 00:02:04,469
call it the low thousands and it's
changed a lot

29
00:02:04,469 --> 00:02:09,630
entry points into the contemporary art
market have you know what you could have

30
00:02:09,630 --> 00:02:12,390
bought for maybe a thousand dollars or
five hundred dollars a great you know

31
00:02:12,390 --> 00:02:15,480
work on paper by young artists that
someone didn't know now you go into a

32
00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:19,859
gallery that's 2,500 or 3,000 or 4,000
or 5,000 for an artist that you know it

33
00:02:19,860 --> 00:02:25,620
hasn't maybe had a huge career so you
have to start to kind of take everything

34
00:02:25,620 --> 00:02:29,760
into consideration and figure out you
know what value really is

35
00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:37,470
so that's what an art advisor is the way
that I see my role is I basically try to

36
00:02:37,470 --> 00:02:40,500
add value and sort through what's out
there so that the people who are

37
00:02:40,500 --> 00:02:43,650

actually buying the art don't have to

put in the same amount of time that I do

38
00:02:43,650 --> 00:02:48,930
and that's really what i do i'm kind of
a facilitator a lot of people do not go

39
00:02:48,930 --> 00:02:49,950
to galleries anymore

40
00:02:49,950 --> 00:02:53,159
it used to be that you would walk into a
museum you walk into a non-profit you

41
00:02:53,159 --> 00:02:58,170
walk into a gallery and that's how you
would see art the art fair model of of

42
00:02:58,170 --> 00:03:02,970
selling art has changed our business
enormously you see a lot of people who

43

00:03:02,970 --> 00:03:07,140

are buying a lot of art not going to
galleries and not doing the research and

44
00:03:07,140 --> 00:03:10,409
not sort of seeing the Ark of where a
younger artists goes over a period of

45
00:03:10,409 --> 00:03:15,149
years in a series of shows and its
really my job to kind of do all of that

46
00:03:15,150 --> 00:03:20,670
sort through the information understand
the curators and the museums and the

47
00:03:20,670 --> 00:03:24,238
other dealers and the auction houses and
what's happening with all of those

48
00:03:24,239 --> 00:03:29,400
prices and all the things around those
artists markets to kind of make certain

49
00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:30,239
decisions

50
00:03:30,239 --> 00:03:34,470
so I'm a lousy public speaker so you
gotta bear with me a little bit i'm

51
00:03:34,470 --> 00:03:37,500
gonna give you some anecdotes I think
about establishing value so this idea of

52
00:03:37,500 --> 00:03:41,790
value and what somebody is willing to
pay for it so i have a young client and

53
00:03:41,790 --> 00:03:44,129
when I say young I mean he's only been
collecting for a couple of years maybe

54
00:03:44,129 --> 00:03:49,470
two years and he's new to the game but

incredibly smart and really interested

55
00:03:49,470 --> 00:03:53,310
and he fell in love with the work of
glenn ligon who i'm sure many of you

56
00:03:53,310 --> 00:03:58,319
know who's a brilliant artist and and
difficult political work some of its

57
00:03:58,319 --> 00:04:02,339
easier than others but more importantly
it's impossible to get you can buy

58
00:04:02,340 --> 00:04:05,370
things at auction but you're paying big
numbers now and there was a very very

59
00:04:05,370 --> 00:04:09,60
beautiful print it was actually a
dipstick and it was a print that's based

60

00:04:09,60 --> 00:04:14,370

on one of his most well-known paintings
and the print was in addition of 20 and

61
00:04:14,370 --> 00:04:15,569
it was published

62
00:04:15,569 --> 00:04:22,169
I think my brands sick among many many
years ago many many 10 years ago and I'm

63
00:04:22,169 --> 00:04:26,400
sure it's just a couple of thousand
dollars when it was first published it

64
00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:30,150
it was offered to me I knew the client
was interested in lichen and I showed

65
00:04:30,150 --> 00:04:33,599
him and then I started to do some
research which is what you do with any

66
00:04:33,599 --> 00:04:38,849
object for anything that you're going to
offer to a client as an advisor and this

67
00:04:38,849 --> 00:04:39,990
is probably I'm

68
00:04:39,990 --> 00:04:44,670
month ago so April so I'm looking and
the exact same print one of the addition

69
00:04:44,670 --> 00:04:49,530
of 20 had come up in march and it sold
for thirty-two thousand dollars so I'm

70
00:04:49,530 --> 00:04:53,280
like okay that's interesting the
galleries asking 60 like sixty thousand

71
00:04:53,280 --> 00:04:56,309
dollars it sold last month for
thirty-two thousand dollars that kind of

72
00:04:56,310 --> 00:04:59,760
seems like a lot so I talk to the client
I told him everything that i found out

73
00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:02,190
and he said well let's go look at it I
love it

74
00:05:02,190 --> 00:05:06,480
so we go and look at it and we're all
sitting there and it's beautiful and the

75
00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:09,840
galleries telling you how incredible and
how important it is and and how many

76
00:05:09,840 --> 00:05:13,289
museums own it and I said but it sold
for thirty-two thousand dollars for

77
00:05:13,290 --> 00:05:14,190

weeks ago

78
00:05:14,190 --> 00:05:18,330
how can you ask someone to pay almost
double and i ended up in a very long

79
00:05:18,330 --> 00:05:23,70
conversation with my client and my
advice to him was that if you really

80
00:05:23,70 --> 00:05:27,480
really loved it I felt like it was ok to
pay a premium above what the most recent

81
00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:32,70
sort of market value was for that object
so if someone was willing to pay 32 last

82
00:05:32,70 --> 00:05:32,760
month

83
00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:35,789

the artist is doing incredibly well he

is very important

84
00:05:36,300 --> 00:05:40,80
the picture is important and he loves it
so maybe we'll pay ten percent more

85
00:05:40,80 --> 00:05:43,890
maybe you pay fifteen percent more maybe
you pay a premium because you love it

86
00:05:43,890 --> 00:05:48,479
and you're adding whatever percentage
that is based on the fact that you love

87
00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:50,340
it but double

88
00:05:50,340 --> 00:05:56,460
so I said you know will offer them 45
and he agreed he's like 545 no more

89

00:05:56,460 --> 00:06:00,120

we offered them 45 they said now I said
where are you going to come back with an

90
00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:00,810
offer

91
00:06:00,810 --> 00:06:05,10
no the client wants 60 maybe we can get
ten percent in a word 54 and they were

92
00:06:05,10 --> 00:06:07,860
representing someone who obviously was
selling it through them anyway so long

93
00:06:07,860 --> 00:06:10,380
story short we went back and forth and I
basically advised my client that I

94
00:06:10,380 --> 00:06:13,530
didn't feel like we should go up and a
week later he emailed me and simple did

95
00:06:13,530 --> 00:06:16,440
they sell it and i said well i don't
know i did actually didn't I haven't I

96
00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:18,480
have asked so I emailed her

97
00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:23,430
the woman who works for the gallery and
and she said yeah we sold it we sold it

98
00:06:23,430 --> 00:06:28,20
to a big collector he loves lens work
and he he's got a big a becks collection

99
00:06:28,20 --> 00:06:30,630
and all the rest of it so obviously for
that collector

100
00:06:30,630 --> 00:06:32,969
they were willing to and I didn't ask
what the price was because I was trying

101
00:06:32,970 --> 00:06:36,330
not to be incredibly pushing aggressive
you can only be so pushy and aggressive

102
00:06:36,990 --> 00:06:39,930
but i'm going to assume they sold it for
54 i'm going to assume they sold it for

103
00:06:39,930 --> 00:06:42,390
60 less 10 and

104
00:06:42,390 --> 00:06:46,440
that to me was an interesting sort of
moment because does that mean i should

105
00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:51,690
have advised my client well you should
go to 54 because clearly that's what it

106
00:06:51,690 --> 00:06:54,750
was worth to that other person so is

that what the value of that print is I

107
00:06:54,750 --> 00:06:57,390
don't know 3254 it's kind of a big
spread for me

108
00:06:57,390 --> 00:07:00,000
so in that moment that was the decision
that I made but I kind of feel like that

109
00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:03,450
leaves a lot of questions about what is
the value of that print is it worth 32

110
00:07:03,450 --> 00:07:07,80
is it worth 60 is it you know what is it
worth and obviously when it was first

111
00:07:07,80 --> 00:07:09,390
published it was just for a few thousand
dollars

112

00:07:09,390 --> 00:07:11,700

how do you know if things are going to
go up how do you know if things are

113
00:07:11,700 --> 00:07:12,599
going to go down

114
00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:15,630
you have to take a lot of things into
consideration

115
00:07:15,630 --> 00:07:20,159
so I'm trying to think if I should give
you a couple of other sort of good

116
00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:21,540
examples

117
00:07:21,540 --> 00:07:25,710
I work or have been working with a young
and not-so-young in her early forties

118

00:07:25,710 --> 00:07:30,210

another artist that I'm a really big fan
of is actually a ceramicist and she just

119
00:07:30,210 --> 00:07:33,510
had a solo show at the kitchen a few
months ago and when I started to look at

120
00:07:33,510 --> 00:07:36,120
her work two years ago she wasn't really
working with a dealer

121
00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:40,200
she was sad no studio she's big and
basically working out of her apartment

122
00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:44,39
she had killed in one place and she was
kind of moving objects back and forth

123
00:07:44,40 --> 00:07:48,480
and I ended up buying a piece for myself
which I I live with and i absolutely

124
00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:52,350
love and i paid what I consider to be
not a large sum considering how much

125
00:07:52,350 --> 00:07:55,560
work went into it it's essentially a
chandelier that comes from the ceiling

126
00:07:55,560 --> 00:08:01,170
and it has about 40 different hand fired
porcelain components that are all glazed

127
00:08:01,170 --> 00:08:02,550
and it's very very beautiful

128
00:08:02,550 --> 00:08:06,90
so for me it was worth what I paid she's
now showing with a big dealer this is a

129
00:08:06,90 --> 00:08:07,80
year and a half later

130
00:08:07,80 --> 00:08:10,260
she's made three versions of this piece
and he's selling it for so much more

131
00:08:10,260 --> 00:08:11,789
than I paid for it

132
00:08:11,790 --> 00:08:15,630
and what does it mean I don't know it
just is timing at that dealer took it

133
00:08:15,630 --> 00:08:20,159
you know took it upon himself to to show
the work he had other artists that he

134
00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:25,440
kind of you could use as a barometer and
his program to have had a price her work

135
00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:26,900
people started to buy it in a

136
00:08:26,900 --> 00:08:31,969
in a the sort of short course of 24
months you've seen those prices

137
00:08:32,809 --> 00:08:36,500
you know sort of go like this now it's
only a few objects and it's one artist

138
00:08:36,500 --> 00:08:37,849
and it's one gallery

139
00:08:37,849 --> 00:08:43,400
so these are just small moments in and
what is a very very very large wide art

140
00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:48,79
market you know the market is thousands
and thousands and thousands of galleries

141
00:08:48,80 --> 00:08:51,140
and each one of those galleries

represents you know 10 to 20 artists so

142
00:08:51,140 --> 00:08:54,110
you've got tens and tens of thousands of
artists all over the world

143
00:08:54,110 --> 00:08:57,950
they all have their own market and their
own things going on and their own own

144
00:08:57,950 --> 00:09:02,630
way of being valued biggest people like
me and and the dealers who represent

145
00:09:02,630 --> 00:09:03,290
them

146
00:09:03,290 --> 00:09:08,270
i'll give you I'll give you one last
sort of maybe a sexy story which is that

147
00:09:08,270 --> 00:09:12,620

I've been workin on a sculpture by franz

west for about six months and the

148
00:09:12,620 --> 00:09:16,610
galleries that represent him are really
big and powerful and sometimes really

149
00:09:16,610 --> 00:09:22,430
not so nice to me and I I really pushed
to show a particular client something

150
00:09:22,430 --> 00:09:28,189
that was incredibly large and quite
expensive and even though there have

151
00:09:28,190 --> 00:09:32,870
been many many public installations of
France's work at the prices that they

152
00:09:32,870 --> 00:09:34,190
were asking

153

00:09:34,190 --> 00:09:38,540

I really felt like this have been around
for nine or ten months and it had been

154
00:09:38,540 --> 00:09:43,40
it's two pieces that are each 16 feet
long so between the price and the medium

155
00:09:43,40 --> 00:09:47,329
and the scale it's you know you don't
have 50,000 buyers for this thing so I I

156
00:09:47,330 --> 00:09:51,620
talk to my client and we decided to put
in a quote much lower offer than the

157
00:09:51,620 --> 00:09:56,89
gallery was asking and the guy that I
work with their laughed at me and said I

158
00:09:56,89 --> 00:09:59,120
canvas there's no way I mean yet I can't
even take this two fronts I mean there's

159
00:09:59,120 --> 00:09:59,839
no way

160
00:09:59,839 --> 00:10:02,870
and I said you know what I said it's
been sitting there for nine months

161
00:10:03,410 --> 00:10:07,310
in your La gallery I said nothing's
moving this is a real offer and I can

162
00:10:07,310 --> 00:10:08,599
get you paid within a week

163
00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:11,779
this guy serious but here's the number
and it's about 30 was about thirty five

164
00:10:11,779 --> 00:10:16,790
percent less than they were asking and
and and the next morning he came back

165
00:10:16,790 --> 00:10:19,160
and said I don't know Franz must have
woken up on the right side of the bed he

166
00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:21,230
says you have a deal

167
00:10:21,230 --> 00:10:26,330
I said really late so I went back to my
client I said are you sitting down we

168
00:10:26,330 --> 00:10:33,50
have a deal and he said oh my god did we
overpay should be offered less so i'll

169
00:10:33,50 --> 00:10:35,30
close with that but thank you very much