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VisasforAlQaeda:CIAHandoutsThatRockedTheWorld
AnInsidersView.
Region:MiddleEast&NorthAfrica,USA
Theme:Intelligence

ByJ.MichaelSpringmannandBonnieFaulkner
GlobalResearch,December28,2015
GunsandButter9September2015

SelectedArticles:BarbarisminWords
andDeeds.BarbarismofU.S.Imperial
WarsisUnmatched

Michael Springmann was Chief of the NonImmigrant Visa Section in

Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, from 1987 to 1989. In his position in Jeddah, he
was routinely overruled by superiors when he denied VISA applications
submittedbyunqualifiedtravelerstotheUnitedStates.

AustraliaBecomesFirstCountryTo
BeginMicrochippingItsPopulation.RFID
ImplantsintheHumanBody
ItsOfficial:USGovernmentEndsFiscal
Yearwith$1.4TrillionDebtIncrease

TheeventsofSeptember11thgavehimamoreprofoundunderstanding
ofthetroublesheexperiencedinthatjob.HeistheauthorofVISAsfor
Al Qaeda: CIA Handouts That Rocked The World An Insiders View.
HedescribestheAmericanVISAsForTerroristsProgramandtheArab
AfghanLegion.

IraqisUse9/11VictimsBillToDemand
CompensationFromUSFor2003
Invasion
MostPopular

AllArticles

GhosteryblockedSoundCloudvideoplayer.

Transcript:
ThisisGunsandButter.
IthinkitsbiggerthanIevensuspected.Ihadthoughtoriginallythatitwasasmall,rogueoperationandas
timewentbyandItalkedtopeopleandstartedresearchingthebookIsawthatitwasbiggerthanever.
Giventhepushbackandtheblockingofpeople,IreallythinkthatitgoeswideranddeeperthanevenI
suspect. I think one of the reasons for this is that nobody wants to believe the entire government is
corruptfromtoptobottom,thatyoucantalkaboutEdwardSnowdenorTomDrakeorWilliamBinneyand
theveryfocused,verytightlyorganizedsituationsforaparticularpersonforaparticularitem.WhatIm
sayingisthattheUnitedStatesofAmericaandallofthebranchestheexecutive,thejudicial,andthe
legislative know about this and are covering up essentially state sponsored terrorism, and nobody
wantstohearthis.NobodywantstogoanydeeperinitthanIvegot.

GlobalResearchPublishers

Im Bonnie Faulkner. Today on Guns and Butter, J. Michael Springmann. Todays show: Visas for Al
Qaeda.

ClickHereToOrderOnline

NEWS
THEMES
IBOOKSSERIES
INDEPTHREPORTS
GLOBALRESEARCHVIDEOS

MichaelSpringmann is a former diplomat in the State Departments Foreign Service, with postings to
Germany,India,SaudiArabia,andtheBureauofIntelligenceandResearchinWashington,D.C.Hewas
Chief of the NonImmigrant Visa Section in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, from 1987 to 1989. In his position in
Jeddah, he was routinely overruled by superiors when he denied visa applications submitted by
unqualified travelers to the United States. The events of September 11th gave him a more profound
understanding of the troubles he experienced in that job. He is the author of Visas for Al Qaeda: CIA
HandoutsThatRockedtheWorldAnInsidersView.Hisarticlesonnationalsecuritythemeshavebeen
publishedinCovertActionQuarterly,Unclassified,GlobalResearch,OpEdNews,ThePublicRecordand
ForeignPolicyJournal.HeisnowanattorneyinprivatepracticeintheWashington,D.C.area.
*****
BonnieFaulkner:MichaelSpringmann,welcome.
Michael Springmann: Thank you. Im pleased and honored to be able to talk to you and talk to your
listeners.
BonnieFaulkner:Yourbook,VisasforAlQaeda:CIAHandoutsthatRockedtheWorldAnInsiders
View,isablockbusterstartingfromthefirstpage.Idliketoreadthededicationofyourbook.Thisopusis
dedicated to the people of Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Russia, Syria and Yugoslavia. I offer it as a small
commemorationtoboththelivingandthedeadofthoseunfortunatecountries,particularlythosewhowere
murderedintheirmillionsbytheUnitedStatesofAmerica.
Accordingtowhatyouwrite,youvecomealongwayinyourthinkingaboutAmericanforeignandnow
domesticpolicy.YouareaformerUSdiplomathavingworkedinmanyforeignposts,mostsignificantlyas

THEGLOBALRESEARCHNEWSHOUR

a visa officer in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia from 1987 to 1989. How did you come to work in the Foreign
Serviceandwhatdifferentpostswereyouassignedto?

U.S.ELECTIONS

JoinusonFacebook

MichaelSpringmann:IhadgottenverymuchinterestedinforeignaffairswhenIwasinhighschool.I
had read Lederer and Burdicks book, The Ugly American, and thought the State Department needed
somebodywhowasntquitesohideboundandwearingblinders.
So after I went to Georgetown University School of Foreign Service I graduated and tried to take the
Foreign Service exam, passing the written test but failing the oral. Unfortunately, I drew the former
ambassadortoVietnam,EllsworthBunker,whowasawarhawkandwhentheyaskedme,Whatkindof
foreignpolicyproblemsdoyouseeintheworldtoday?ImentionedVietnamandsaidthattheAmerican
government was keeping its actions in Southeast Asia from the American people but the folks in
Southeast Asia, the Vietnamese, the Cambodians and the Laotians, they all knew they were being
bombed to hell. And boy, the interview went downhill from there. I wasnt the right kind of person they
wanted.
SooverthenextfewyearsIkeptretakingtheexamandalwayspassingthewrittenbutnevertheoral.I
sortofwonderedsometimeswhetherIwastherightpersonsinceIdidntcomefromtheupperclass,Ivy
LeagueeducatedelitethatnormallygoesintotheForeignService,thefolksfromHarvardandYaleand
comefrombigmoney.Soinmysituation,IwentabroadwiththeStateCommerceExchangeProgram,
whichwasaprogramsetuptogiveWashingtonassignmentstoStateDepartmentpeoplewhoneededto
be in DC for some reason, and in return, Commerce Department employees got positions as Foreign
Serviceofficersabroad.IwassenttoStuttgart.

StopNATO

Later, when they created the Foreign Commercial Service, taking it away from the State Department, I
wenttoIndiaascommercialattachinNewDelhi.Theneventually,presumablycitingmybackgroundin
theStateCommerceExchangeProgramandtheForeignCommercialService,Ieventuallygotthrough
theoralexamandthenwascommissionedtoForeignServiceofficer,andasareward,wassenttoSaudi
Arabia,whichwasnotonanyofmylistsofperspectiveassignmentsand,infact,IhadbeentoldIwas
goingtotheembassyinwhatwasthenEastBerlin.

StrategicCultureFoundation

BonnieFaulkner:Inyourintroduction,Whatisthisabout?youdiscussalQaeda.WhatisalQaeda?

TheCorbettReport

Michael Springmann: Well, al Qaeda is one of the brand names for the American visas for terrorists
program.Initially,theywerethemujahedeen,thepeoplewhorecruitedaroundtheworldandsenttothe
USfortrainingandtoPakistanfortrainingandthensenttoAfghanistantoshootthingsdownandblow
thingsup,hopefullywithSovietsoldiersinside.

PartnerWebsites
ProjectCensored

Washington'sBlog

They then became al Qaeda in another brand change, but it was basically the same fanatical Muslims
whoweredoingAmericasbiddingindestabilizingfirstYugoslaviaandthenIraqandthenLibyaandthen
Syria.AndnowtheyrecallingthemISILorISISorDaeshanditsthesamepeople.ItstheArabAfghan
Legion,itstheguysoriginallyrecruitedasthemujahedeen25yearsagoormore.
Theyre not as organized as the Marine Corps but they are crazy people that have been recruited and
trainedbytheAmericansandsuppliedbytheSaudisandtheGulfstatesandothers,andtheyreturned
loose to destabilize, dehouse, deculturalize and destroy countries the United States doesnt like or
governmentstheUnitedStatesdoesntlike.
TheydiditinIraq,theydiditinYugoslavia,theydiditinLibya,whichhadoneofthehigheststandardsof
livinginallofAfrica,andtheyredoingittoSyria,whichIthinkisinaworseconditionnowafterfouryears
of Americansponsored war than Iraq was or is. There are at least a million dead in Iraq and still four
millionpeopleasrefugeesorinternallydisplaced,andSyriahasthesameproblem.Therearefourmillion
peopleoutsidethecountry.
BonnieFaulkner:OneofyourintroductionsisentitledWhydidIwritethisbook?Whydidyouwritethis
book?
MichaelSpringmann:Well,Iwrotethebookbecausemorethan20yearsofspeakingoutagainstwhat
was being done to me and the rest of the world, analyzing the disastrous American foreign policy, the
imperialAmericanforeignpolicy,andnotgettingawholelotofresponse,Isaid,well,allright.Ihaddone
FreedomofInformationActrequestswiththeStateDepartmentandgotnowhere.Ididthatin1992whenI
was fired and wanted to find out why, and when State stalled me for two years and gave me no
information I filed a lawsuit in US District court. It was sealed and shut down as a threat to national
securityandIstillwonderwhyfindingoutwhatwasgoingonaboutmyfiringwasathreattonational
security,butIthinknowweknow.
The second impetus to this was several years ago when I filed another Freedom of Information Act
requestandagaingotstonewalledbytheStateDepartment.IwantedtheoriginalvisaapplicationsIhad
refusedyearsagoandhadbeenrepeatedlyoverruledbyJayFrereswhoIbelievetobeaCIAofficial.
Andhewasthedrivingforcebehindalloftheseillegalvisas,peoplehadnotiestotheirowncountryor
SaudiArabiayetwantedtogotoAmericaforreasonsnoneofthemcouldarticulate.Thatwasshutdown
because the State Department claimed, Well, we cant find any of these records. Theyve all been
shredded. I said, Well, thats not true because we interviewed 45,000 applicants a year and we had,
whenIwasthere,filingcabinetsfilledtooverflowingwithapplications5,10,15yearsold.Iftheyhadbeen
shredded,whichIdoubted,Iwanttoknowthenamesofthepeoplewhoshreddedthem,theirrankand
thedatestheywereshredded.StatewouldneverdothisandReggieWalton,thejudgewhowasalsoon
the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act court, simply closed down my Freedom of Information Act
lawsuitashavingusedupallofmyadministrativeremedies.

SoIsaid,allright.Ivehadenough.Imgoingtowriteabook.Imgoingtotryandtiethisalluptogether
andImgoingtogetitouttopeoplewhoreallyneedtoknowaboutthis.AndthatswhatIvebeendoing
sinceFebruary6th.
BonnieFaulkner:IsthatFebruary6thofthisyear?
Michael Springmann: Of this year, thats right. I closed down the research in December of last year,
2014,andsaidIcantdothis.Imgoingtokeepgoingonforever.Thisbookistimely,itsimportant,people
needtoknowaboutitandsentitofftotheprintersandwasdonewithitFebruary6thanditwasonthe
streetIthinklaterthatmonth.
Bonnie Faulkner: What kind of people does the US government hire to formulate and manage its
imperialistforeignpolicy?
MichaelSpringmann:Idiots,andtheyregenerallypeoplewhodonotworkfortheDepartmentofState.
State claims it wants the best and the brightest, but some of the ones Ive met arent the best and the
brightest anywhere in the world. Unfortunately, most of the people who work for the State Department
workfortheintelligenceservices.IhadaformerchiefofstationandarealForeignServiceofficer,Jay
Hawley, tell me that the average is about one in three Foreign Service officers work for one of the
Americanintelligenceservices.Therewasaformerambassador,whosnowdied,hesaidabouthalfof
thepeopleinmanyForeignServicepostsworkfortheintelligenceservices.WhenIwasinJeddah,outof
20 Americans there were only 3 people, myself, Mike Springmann, Lonnie Washington, the only State
Departmentcommunicator,andJimPage,anadministrativeofficer,weweretheonlypeoplewhohadno
tiesprofessionalorfamilialwithanyoftheAmericanintelligenceservices.
According to a book that was published in Canada that ran about 12 pages, that Ive not yet seen but
foundonNamebase.org,twothirdsofthepeoplewhoworkfortheStateDepartmentasForeignService
officers are really intelligence officers. These are the people who are incredibly arrogant, selfcentered
andcontemptuousofeverybodyelseintheworld.
BonnieFaulkner:WithregardtosomeofyourexperiencesinJeddah,didntyoudiscoverthingsyourself
goingontherethattheUSgovernmentitselfwasntevenawareof?
MichaelSpringmann:Yesandno.WhenIwasinJeddahIwasgettingsomereallystrangepeopleas
visaapplicantsandlaterfoundouttheyweresenttomebytheintelligenceservices.Butinoneinstance
myabilitytomakecontactsandtalktopeoplebroughtinamajorrevelation.TheSaudis,beginningabout
1988, had been very much interested in buying Chinese made silkworm missiles. These were
intermediate range ballistic missiles. I was going out to dinner with some Europeans one day and they
cameovertothehouseforacoupleofbeersbeforewewentoutandthisguysaid,Well,youknow,Im
workingdownattheportandyouknowthoseChinesesilkwormmissiles?Isaid,Yeah.Well,theyre
bringingthemin.theyreunloadingthemandtheyremovingcontainersaroundtoblockthesightlines.
Asluckwouldhaveit,theairattachwasdownfromRiyadhandIcalledhimupthefirstthingthenext
morningandtoldhimwhatIhadgottenfromthefellow,andhesaid,Thatsnewstome.Imnotdownhere
aboutthis.Icamedowntodoscubadiving.Sohewentandgotpicturestakeneitherthroughasatellite,
overheadimagery,orthroughaflyoverwithareconnaissanceplane,andtheNationalSecurityAgency
hadnt heard about that, and the CIA, Karen Sasahara, the case officer whose diplomatic cover was
politicalofficer,shedidntknowaboutit.TheStateDepartmentssecretaryfortheconsulgeneralwhohad
onceworkedwiththeCIA,shewasmadbecauseshehadtocomeinonherdayoffandwritethecable
about this. As a footnote, Karen Sasahara is now deputy chief of mission in Sanaa and shes working
with her husband, Michael Ratney, who had been consul general in Jerusalem and is now American
ambassadortoSyria.Sotheyrekeepingterrorismandwarfareinthefamily.
BonnieFaulkner:WhatsitlikeinJeddah,SaudiArabia?
MichaelSpringmann:Well,LonnieWashington,thecommunicator,saidthat,well,theSaudisputalotof
restrictionsoneverybodyandtheAmericansputrestrictionsontopofthem.Youhadtotakeyourliquor
bottlesandbeercanstobecrushedsotheSaudiswouldntknowyouweredrinkingbeereventhough
SaudiscametoAmericanfunctionsonthecompoundwhereeverybodywasdrinkingandtheydrank,too.
The place was amazing. If you had the right connections, if you had what the Arabs call wasta, you
couldgetalmostanythingdoneyouwanted.IhaddinneratahighlevelSaudifellowshouseandhesaid
beforedinner,Mike,wouldyoulikewhiskeybeforedinnerorwouldyouwantanapritifofsomekind?We
cangetyousherryoryounameit,wevegotit.Isaid,Wow.
Butitwasanamazingplace.Youcoulddoanythingifyoukeptithidden.Ifyouwentoutandinfluenced
Muslimstodrinkyoudgettossedinjailandlashedanddeported,butifyouhadtherightconnectionsyou
coulddoanythingyouwanted.TheyhadundercoverpriestssayingmassatJ.PhillipFrerershouse.He
wastheAmericanconsulgeneralandsupposedlyadevoutCatholic.ItwaskindoflikeEuropeatthetime
of Henry VIII. You had hidden priests posing as travel agents, doing their ministry there. You had
Protestants having religious services on the American consulate compound. It was absolutely
astonishing.
BonnieFaulkner:YoutalkabouthowtheUSForeignServicewasprofessionalizedandmergedwiththe
Central Intelligence Agency. Youve started to talk about this. How does the CIA operate within the
ForeignService?
MichaelSpringmann:Theyhavepeoplecalledunderofficialcover.TheyaresupposedlyrealForeign
Serviceofficerswithblackdiplomaticpassports.ThereweretwoCIAcaseofficersinmyA100class,the
classteachingyouhowtobeaForeignServiceofficer,whenIwashiredbyState.Theysimplygoout
andtheyregivenassignmentsinthepoliticalsection,theeconomicsection,thecommercialsection,the

administrative section, but they dont necessarily work full time in those sections. For example, Andy
Weber,whoisnowassistantsecretaryofdefensefornuclear,biologicalandchemicalweapons,hewasa
CIAcaseofficerinJeddahsupposedlyassignedtotheconsularsection,butheworkedtheremaybehalf
adayandwereallyonlyhadhimintherefulltimewhenwehadafloodofvisaapplicantsaftertheendof
majorholidaysinSaudiArabia.
BonnieFaulkner:Itendtothinkofterroristtrainingastakingplaceinforeigncountries,suchasJordan
orTurkeyorwherever.Infact,alotofthetrainingofterroriststookplacerighthereintheUnitedStates.
Whatwasoristhevisasforterroristsprogram?
MichaelSpringmann:ThatsessentiallywhatIcalledwhatIwasbeingtoldtodoinJeddah.Itwasthe
mujahedeenrecruitsthattheywerebriningfromallovertheMiddleEastandevenasfarasEastAsia.
Theywerepeoplewhowantedtobetaughttoshootthingsdownandblowthingsup.Theybroughtthem
bythethousandstotheUStobetaughtinUSmilitarytrainingfacilities,eitherinNorthCarolinawiththe
NavyornearWilliamsburg,VirginiawiththeCIAorganizationcalledTheFarm.Theyrealsobeingfought
inJordannow.ThereareanumberofAmericanbasestherethatareteachingthemhowtodothis.There
areapparentlybasesinTurkeythataregivingthemthefulltreatmentonhowtodestroySyriaandbefore,
howtodestroyLibya.Itsamazing.Youwouldhavethoughttheywouldhavedoneiteasierandcheaper
abroadbutwhoknowswhatgoesoninthesepeoplesminds?
BonnieFaulkner:InyourchapterEnterthePatsy,Iassumethatyouwerethepatsy.
MichaelSpringmann:Exactly.Hadtheytoldmewhattheywantedmetodo,Iprobablywouldhavebeen
dumbenoughatthetimetosay,Yeah,weworkforthesamegovernment.Yeah,youwantavisafora
guy to overthrow the evil, godless Soviet empire? Sure. Ill stamp the visa for you. But they never did
that.
IhadthisbizarreconversationwiththethenAmericanambassador,WalterCutler.IwasinAreaStudies
attheStateDepartmentsForeignServiceInstitute.Theyweretraininganeducationarm.Igotacallfrom
one of the desk officers for Saudi Arabia, the people who follow what goes on in the country and are
essentially the State Departments embassy in Washington for Saudi Arabia or India or Germany or
whatevercountryyouretalkingabout.Hesaid,Cutlersintown.Doyouwanttomeethim?Isaid,Yeah,
sure.
I figured it would be a fiveminute hello and goodbye session, and Cutler kept me there for 45 minutes
talking about all the problems my predecessor, Greta Holtz, had created for him and the embassy in
Riyadh.ShewasrefusingvisastoservantsforrichSaudiwomenwhocouldnttraveltotheUSwithout
seamstresses,hairdressersandotherfactotums.Isaid,thisisthemostbizarrething.Hestellingmemy
predecessorisanabsoluteincompetentandatroublemakerandhewantsmetodosomethingbutIcant
quitefigurewhatitishewantsmetodoorwhatmessagehestryingtogetacross.
Onceitwasover,Iaskedthedeskofficerwhowastherewithme,Whatwasthatallabout?Hesaid,
Well,Idontknow.Cutlerwasjustaqueerduck.Well,GretaHoltz,whorefusedtoanswerthreeletters
askingaboutwhatwaslifeinJeddah,whatshewishedshehadknownbeforeshegotthereandsoforth,
toldmeonthephoneonedayafterIwasoutoftheForeignService,Oh,IwassoupsetIcouldnttellyou
aboutthis.IfoundthisreallypeculiarbecauseGretaHoltzisnowAmericanambassadortoOman,andif
shehadalltheseproblemshowisitthatshesintheForeignServicestillandImout,whenallIwasdoing
wasmyjob,whichwasessentiallytosupportanddefendtheConstitutionoftheUnitedStatesagainstall
enemies,foreignanddomestic?
So far as Ive seen in my career in the State Department and since then, the only enemies there are
aroundaredomesticenemies,andtheygenerallyworkfortheUnitedStatesgovernment.
BonnieFaulkner:Now,whatwerethethreerecruitingofficesinSaudiArabia?YouworkedinJeddah.
Werenttheretwoothercenters?
MichaelSpringmann:TherewasoneinDhahranattheconsulthere,butIveneverbeenabletofigureit
out,andoneinRiyadh.Nobodysbeenabletotellmetheirexactaddresses.Itwasjust,yeah,thecities,
theywerethere,buttheyneverreallygavemeanyconcreteinformation.TryasImight,Icouldntfind
anybodywhowouldtellmeotherwise.
BonnieFaulkner:Theproblemthatyouranupagainstprofessionallyinyourjobisthatyouwereactually
denyingvisas.Isntthatright?
MichaelSpringmann:Yeah.Withavisaapplicationyouvegottoestablishsomekindofconnectionto
the place of application or your own country. You have a job, youre going to school, youre running a
business,youhaveaninvestment,whateverthatsgoingtobestrongenoughtobringyoubackfromthe
UnitedStatesforwhateverreasonyouregoinghere.Forexample,peoplegofortourism,tovisitrelatives,
tosignacontractwithabusinessintheUnitedStates,whatever.Thentheycantstayhere.Theyhaveto
gobacktomanagingtheirownbusiness,theyhavetograduatefromtheiruniversity,theyhavetomanage
theirjob,theyreeitheramanagerinacompanyandtheyjustcantgoawayandleaveit.
Noneofthesepeoplehadanyofthoseties.Theywerepeoplethatcouldntnamethecitytheyweregoing
to,couldnttellmewhytheyweregoingthere,hadabsolutelynoinformationavailabletomeastowhat
theyweredoingorwhytheyweregoing.IthoughtonceIhadyelledandscreamedandfiledlawsuitsthat
thishadallstopped.YetafterSeptember11th,andinresearchingthebook,IfoundthatShaynaSteinger
hadbeentheconsularofficerinJeddahwhohadissued11visastopeoplewhowereparticipantsinthe
September11thattacks,andIwasthunderstruckatthis.ShaynaSteinger,whofrommyresearchonthe
Internet had given equivocable answers to the 911 Commission, she still has a job and has gotten
promotions.

BonnieFaulkner:Youresayingthat11ofthe,what,19
MichaelSpringmann:Twenty.Ithink19or20.15gottheirvisasinSaudiArabiaand11ofthe15got
theminJeddah.
BonnieFaulkner:Isee,attheveryofficewhereyouworked.
MichaelSpringmann:Exactly.
Bonnie Faulkner: You complained because you were being overruled when you denied visas, right?
Whodidyoucomplainto?
MichaelSpringmann:IcomplainedfirsttoJusticeStevens,andJusticeisthegivenname.Hewashead
oftheconsularsection.IcomplainedtoJayFrerers.IcomplainedtoStephanieSmith,whoIhavesince
foundoutisaCIAofficial.WhenshewascounselforconsularaffairsinRiyadhandshetoldme,Thisis
averybadthing.WhenyougobacktoWashington,telltheBureauofConsularAffairsaboutthis,whichI
didandtheyhadabsolutelynointerest.
Once I was out of the State Department I complained to the Government Accounting Office, as it was
known at the time. I complained to the Justice Department and to the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
TheytoldmeafterSeptember11th,afterIcalledofficeafterofficeatheadquarters,tocalltheWashington
DistrictofficeandwhenIdid,theysaid,Well,wellgetbacktoyou.Thatwas15yearsagoandImstill
waiting.
BonnieFaulkner:Sohowmassivewouldyousaythecoverupis?
MichaelSpringmann:IthinkitsbiggerthanIevensuspected.Ihadthoughtoriginallythatitwasasmall,
rogueoperationandastimewentbyandItalkedtopeopleandstartedresearchingthebookIsawthatit
was bigger than ever. Given the pushback and the blocking of people, like Amy Goodman on
DemocracyNow! and Tom Devine at the Government Accountability Project, I really think that it goes
wideranddeeperthanevenIsuspect.
Ithinkoneofthereasonsforthisisthatnobodywantstobelievetheentiregovernmentiscorruptfromtop
to bottom, that you can talk about Edward Snowden or Tom Drake or William Binney and the very
focused,verytightlyorganizedsituationsforaparticularpersonforaparticularitem.WhatImsayingis
thattheUnitedStatesofAmericaandallofthebranchestheexecutive,thejudicial,andthelegislative
know about this and are covering up essentially state sponsored terrorism, and nobody wants to hear
this.NobodywantstogoanydeeperinitthanIvegotten,andIthinktheresalotmoretobeuncoveredif
youcaneverfindtherightpersontotalk.
BonnieFaulkner:Youwrite,WhatIwasprotestingwasinrealityanefforttobringrecruits,roundedup
byOsamabinLaden,totheUnitedStatesforterroristtrainingbytheCIA.Theywouldthenbereturnedto
AfghanistantofightagainstthethenSoviets.
MichaelSpringmann:Exactly.Theywentallinwiththemujahedeen.Theyhadrecruitedthem,theyhad
trainedthem,andalongthewayIthinktheyrealizedthat,hey,wevegotacadreofpeoplewhoarereally
goodatdestroyinggovernmentsandcountries.Whydontweapplythisgrouptoothercountrieswhere
wehaveaninterestinhavinganunstablegovernmentwithafailingeconomy?AndIthinktheybrought
themtoYugoslaviafirst.TheyhadOsamabinLadenand5,000ormoreSaudisthere.Theyhadpeople
thattheyhadtrainedandhadworkedwithNATOinYugoslaviatodestroythecountry,andaccordingto
thisguy,JohnSchingler,whohadbeenwiththeNationalSecurityAgencyandtheNavalWarCollegein
Providence,RhodeIsland,theygotalotofhelpfromtheAmericangovernmenttogetthemthere,tokeep
themthere,andprovidethemwithintelligenceandweaponsandtrainingandsoforth.
Afterthat,theysentthemtoIraqandweveallseenwhatshappenedtoIraq.Itsbeensplitintovirtually
three pieces with no functioning government and no functioning economy. They moved them to Libya.
TheyhadmorearmsamongstthesocalledrebelsinLibyathantheyhadintheBritishArmysinventory.
Once they had gotten these people there and had killed the American ambassador because he was
apparently in the middle of their efforts to move weapons from Libya to Syria to help destabilize the
country there, they had this great opportunity to just shift people and weapons to other countries they
wanted to get rid of, and the Turks are helping. The Turks ship planeloads and shiploads of arms and
ammunition. They were shipped in Saudi aircraft, as well. They were shipped in Turkish aircraft and
Jordanianaircraft.
BonnieFaulkner:PresidentCarterandhisnationalsecurityadvisor,ZbigniewBrzezinski,authorized,at
theurgingoftheCIA,thesecretAmericanbackingforAfghansresistingtheSovietsupportcommunist
government in Kabul. This then triggered the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, which was predicted by
Brzezinski,sothearmingofthemujahedeenwasnotinresponsetoaSovietinvasionbutthecauseofit.
Isntthatright?
MichaelSpringmann:Thatsright.TheywereworkingonthisbeforetheSovietsinvadedon,whatwasit,
December 24th 1979 or thereabouts or earlier. Anyway, yeah. They drew them in and this was the
beginningofthemujahedeenandthevisasforterroristsprogram,whichisnowcalledISIL,afteranother
brandchange.
BonnieFaulkner:HowwouldyoucharacterizewhatyourefertoastheArabAfghanLegion,andwhat
wasitsorigin?
Michael Springmann: These are the people I picked the name up after looking at this perhaps as
somethingofacleverplayonwords,butitsbasicallytheterroriststheAmericansrecruitedalongwiththe
helpoftheSaudisandthePakistanistofightinAfghanistan.TherewerethesepeoplecalledtheAfghan

Arabs. They were not Afghans but they were Arabs and other people from other countries such as
IndonesiaorthePhilippineswhowerebroughtintoAfghanistanandweretrainedtofighttheSoviets.They
werethoughttobeeasiertoworkwiththantheAfghans,andtheysortofgavethemthesobriquetThe
ArabAfghans,whichIturnedintotheArabAfghanLegion.
ButitsthesamecrowdofreallyfanaticalArabsandMuslimsandArabswho,asCherylBenard,thewife
of Zalmay Khalilzad, the former American ambassador to Afghanistan, Iraq and the United Nations, we
went out, and saw the only way to get the Soviets out of Afghanistan was to find the wildest, most
fanaticalcrazieswecouldandthatswhytherearenomoderatesinthecountry,thatswhythereareno
leftwingpeopleinthecountry,thatswhyallwehaveinAfghanistanisabunchoffanaticalMuslims.
Bonnie Faulkner: Isnt it also a fact that certain countries actually emptied their jails and sent the
criminalsthere?
MichaelSpringmann:Exactlyright.TheydidthatinEgyptandIwouldimagineotherplacesaswell.You
wantwildmen?Youwanttroublemakers?Well,wevegotwholeprisonsfullofthem.
BonnieFaulkner:WhoisAbdullahAzzam,cofounderoftheServicesOffice,andwhatwashisrolein
creatinginternationalterrorism?
Michael Springmann: He was the guy who worked with Osama bin Laden. In fact, he was Osamas
mentor,asIrecall.Imtryingtorememberhisethnicidentity.IwanttosayNorthAfricanbutImnotsure.
HewasafellowwhoworkedwithOsamabinLadentocreatethesupportfortheArabAfghanLegion,to
supportthepeoplewhowerefightingtheSovietsinAfghanistan.
BonnieFaulkner:WhatistheServicesOfficethathecofounded?
Michael Springmann: That was basically an administrative office that handled recruiting, it handled
publicity. He had said in one of his newsletters that the people who have the money are in the United
States.ThepeoplewhodonthavethemoneyareinpoorArabandMuslimcountriesaroundtheworld,
andthatwewanthelpfromthesepeople,andthebestwaytogethelpistogetitfromtheUS.
BonnieFaulkner:Irecallfromyourbook,didnthealsopublishsomesortofajihadmagazine?
Michael Springmann: Yeah, thats right. That circulated all over the world, and in various languages.
TheysetuptheServicesOfficetomanagerecruitment,trainingandweapons,andtheyhandledtheArab
AfghantransfertoBosnia,forexample.Hewastheirthinktank.HesetuptheAlKifahcenterinBrooklyn
atthemosquetherethatworkedalsowithBosniatorecruitpeopleforthewarintheBalkans.
BonnieFaulkner:WhatisOperationCyclone,andwhatroledoesitplayintheArabAfghanLegion?
MichaelSpringmann:AccordingtoJohnPilger,theAustralianjournalist,CIAdirectorWilliamCaseyhad
givenhisbackingtothiscrazyplanproducedbyPakistansInterServicesIntelligenceagencytorecruit
people from all around the world to join the Afghan jihad. In addition to training them in Pakistan, they
trained also people here at the CIA camp in Virginia at Camp Perry, or The Farm, which is near
Williamsburg. That was Operation Cyclone, and it continued long after the Soviets had withdrawn from
Afghanistanin1989.
BonnieFaulkner:Asfarasyouknow,isOperationCyclonestillinexistence?
MichaelSpringmann:Well,Iwouldimagineso,giventhattheyretrainingpeopleinJordanbytheCIAs
paramilitaryarm,alongwiththeUSmilitaryforcesandtheyredoingthisinTurkey,soIthinkitsstillgoing
on.Theyjustgaveadifferentnameforitmaybeandtheyreprobablydoingitnowmoreabroadthanhere,
butuntilsomebodycomescleanwerenevergoingtoreallyknow.
Bonnie Faulkner: Where were the terrorists trained in the US and who trained them? Now, you
mentionedoneplace.
MichaelSpringmann:AtCampPerry,yeah.TheytrainedintheminNorthCarolinaatmilitaryfacilities,
as well, and I would imagine the Blackwater people were somehow involved, and they operated out of
NorthCarolina.
BonnieFaulkner:Whoelsedoyouthinkwastrainingthem?DidntyoumentiontheGreenBeretinyour
book?
MichaelSpringmann:Yeah.TheUSSpecialForceswereinvolvedinthat.Ithinkthattheywouldhave
theskillsandabilitiestodisruptagivengovernmentusingsmallgroupforces,muchlikeT.E.Lawrence
didinSaudiArabia.
BonnieFaulkner:Youwrite,NotevenAdolphHitlerandtheNazisbroughtterroriststoGermanytrained
them thoroughly and then allowed them to operate against the German people. The United States did,
though, and used its foreign ministry and intelligence service to help, and then covered it up and still
worksveryhardtokeepthelidon.
MichaelSpringmann:Yeah,Ithinkthatsunfortunatelytrue.AdolphHitlerisnottheworldskindest,most
gentlestpersonbutIthinkthathekeptthefanaticsoutofGermany.ButtheAmericansbroughtthemhere,
trainedthem,andthenusedthemagainstAmericaninterestsaroundtheworld.Ithinkitsoutrageous.Ive
metrealliveNazisduringmyfiveyearsinGermanyandIsweartoGod,someoftheonesImetwerea
lotbetterthanpeopleIdealtwithintheAmericangovernment.
BonnieFaulkner:WhatdoweknowabouttakingtheAfghanwarintotheformerSovietUnion?

MichaelSpringmann:Thatsanotherbitofcraziness.Theguyinvolvedinthatwasafellowwhoworked
fortheCentralIntelligenceAgency,andhisdaughtermarriedtheuncleofDzhokharTsarnaevandTamilan
Tsarnaev. His daughter, Samantha, married Ruslan Tsarnaev, their uncle. These were the guys who
supposedlywereresponsibilityfortheBostonMarathonbombing.
ButGrahamFuller,theCIAofficer,hemanagedtheattacksontheMuslimrepublicsintheSovietUnion.
TheysentthecraziesacrosstheAmuDaryaRiverandtheytrainedthemandfunneledtheCIAssupplies
for scattered strikes against various military installations, factories and storage tanks in the old Soviet
Union.IthinkthatsremarkablydangerousgiventhattheSovietshadhalfthesupplyoftheworldsatomic
bombs.
BonnieFaulkner:YoualsopointoutinyourbookthesimilaritiesbetweentheformerYugoslaviaandthe
former USSR in that they both contained a very diverse population, ethnically, religiouswise, so then I
guessitwouldhavebeeneasiertostiruptroubleintheseareas.
MichaelSpringmann:Oh, yeah. For example, in Yugoslavia the Americans set the Orthodox and the
Catholics against the Muslims and the Slovenes and the Croats against the Serbians. You pick your
nationality and minority group and the Americans were backing somebody on the other side. When
Germany,IguesswiththeencouragementoftheUnitedStates,recognizedthetwomosteconomically
viablesectionsofYugoslavia,suchasSloveniaandCroatia,tosecedeandformtheirowncountry,that
helpedimmenselywiththebreakupofYugoslavia.
Michael Parenti in his article about the breakup of Yugoslavia talked about how even the American
government got Congress to block funding for any organization that still adhered to the old Yugoslav
governmentanddidntdeclarethemselvesanindependentcountry,whichIthinkisabsolutelymadness.
BonnieFaulkner:WhatistheMaktabalKhidamat?
Michael Springmann: Thats the Arabic for the Services Office that Abdullah Azzam and Abdul Anas
were running to support the Arab Afghans, the people they recruited to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan
whowerenotAfghannationals.
BonnieFaulkner:DidntSheikOmarAbdelRahman,theblindsheik,himselfgetatouristvisatocometo
theUnitedStates?
MichaelSpringmann:Yes,indeed.
BonnieFaulkner:AndwhatrolehadhebeenplayingwiththeCIA?
MichaelSpringmann:Well,nobodyreallytalksaboutwhathewasdoing.Hesupposedlywasthisbad
boy, yet traveled on American visas all around the world and in going in and out of the United States
despitebeingonawatchlist.TheinterestingthingisthatwhenhegotthevisaintheSudanthedeputy
chiefofmissionatthetimewasthefellowwhogavemesuchproblemsinSaudiArabia,JosephP.ONeill
Jr.HehadgottenhisjobtherethroughaCIAfamilyandaccordingtohisstatementintheGeorgetown
University Oral History Project, there was another CIA agent like the blind sheik who got a visa and
nobodytalksabouthim.AndONeillblamedthelocalstafffordoingthiswhenitwasaCIAcaseofficer
whowastherewhosupposedlydidntbothertocheckthemicrofichelookoutbookfornamesofterrorists
andotherbadboys.
BonnieFaulkner:Itseemstomewithregardtotheblindsheikthatweoftenseethepeoplethatwork
withthegovernmentthenbecometheenemy,andtheyturnaroundandattackthemoraccusethemof
something.Imean,theblindsheikisdoinglife,isnthe?
Michael Springmann: Yeah. Hes down in, I think, Texas. He had been at the al Farouk mosque in
BrooklynatthealKifahcenterandtheyjustsimplylethimgobackandforthwithnoproblemwhatsoever.
The thing of it was the blind sheik isnt by himself. Osama bin Laden was another CIA recruit, and he
suddenlybecameontheiroutswhenhehadservedhispurposes.
IonceinterviewedthisTotoConstant,thismurderer,warcriminalandhumanrightsviolatorinHaitithat
wasoneoftheCIApeopleinplacedownthere,andwhentheyweretiredofhimtheythrewhiminjail.So
theyrelikeKleenex.Youusethemtoblowyournoseandwhenthatsdoneyouthrowthemaway.
BonnieFaulkner:HowwasthealFaroukmosqueinBrooklynused?
MichaelSpringmann:It was a transfer point for recruits. It was a transfer point for money. They sent
themfundsandoperativestoBosnia.TheyfoundthisoutafterthewarinYugoslaviawasover.Anditsby
and large a way station. They got money from the US, Muslims and Arabs in the United States, they
laundered it there and they sent it on to Afghanistan and to Bosnia and to other places in the former
Yugoslavia.
BonnieFaulkner:AretheArabAfghanLegion,alQaedaandISISalloneinthesame?
MichaelSpringmann:Prettymuch.Theyrerebranded.Youvegotroughlythesamefanaticalpeoplethat
are recruited and trained and armed with American, Saudi, Gulf, Turkish, Jordanian and Israeli help.
Thesearethesamepeople.Theymaynotbetheguystheyrecruited25yearsagobuttheymaybethe
peoplethattheytrained,orpeoplethattheytrainedwhothenlatertrainedsomebodyelse.
IputthatquestiontoformerSenatorMikeGravelfromAlaska,andalsotoretiredArmyofficer,Colonel
Tony Shaffer. I said to them, Are these the same guys that we trained here who are now fighting
American soldiers? and both of them said, Yes, these are the same folks. Theyve been rebranded,
theychangedtheirname,theyvegotdifferentpeople.IwontsayitsasorganizedastheUnitedStates

MarineCorpsbuttheyareaprettygoodshotgun.Youloadthemandyouaimthemandfireinthegeneral
directionofsomethingyouwanttohitandsoonerorlater,youfireenoughpellets,youllhitsomething.
BonnieFaulkner:YouwritethatthevisasissuedinJeddahforthemujahedeenandultimatelyalQaeda
and ISIS were not a oneoff program. Could you explain that? Were there other centers doing this and
continuetoissuethesevisas?
MichaelSpringmann:IthinkthatatthetimeIthoughtitwasanoriginal,onetimedealandthenIbegan
hearingabouttherecruitingofficesinDhahranintheeasternprovinceandIsaid,Waitaminute.And
thenastimewentbyandIwasoutoftheStateDepartmentandstartedhearingaboutalQaeda,Isaid,
Well,thisisstillgoingon.AndwhenIreadaboutShaynaSteingerbingerattheCIAsJeddahconsulate
issuingvisasto11ofthe20hijackersforSeptember11thIsaid,MyGod,itsstillgoingon.WhenIread
in John Schindlers book, Unholy Terror, he had drawn links between Bosnia and Afghanistan and the
September11thpeople.Henamesnamesinhisboo,kwhichIrepeatedinmine,ofpeoplewhoweretied
inwiththeSeptember11thplanningandexecution.Isaid,MyGod,thisisstillgoingon,andfromwhatI
couldseeinthedailynewspapers,theyhaventgivenuprecruitingthesecharacters.
BonnieFaulkner:Sothen,istheArabAfghanLegionstillmarching?
Michael Springmann: I think they are. They just have a different brand name. Theyre no longer the
mujahedeenandtheyrenolongeralQaeda.TheyrenowISILorISISorISorDaesh,pickit.
BonnieFaulkner:TheUShassupportedMuslimfundamentalistsandopposedArabsecularnationalism.
Whathasbeentheoveralleffectofthisforeignpolicy?
MichaelSpringmann:Disaster.Whowasit,RobertDreyfusswroteinhisbook,TheDevilsGame,that
originally the Americans saw Islam as a shield against the godless communists. And then they came
aroundtotheideaof,well,youknow,letsusethemasaswordagainstthegodlesscommunists.Andup
untiltheAfghanwar,usingthesepeopleasaswordandasashieldwaskindofanadhocthing.Ifyou
wantedtotryandgetridofthegovernmentofEgyptandtryandgetGamalAbdelNasserassassinatedin
Damascus, well, you hired somebody to do this. If you wanted to destabilize Syria because it was too
socialistyoutriedtohiresomeoneintheintelligenceservicestheretooverthrowthegovernment.
But that was a catch as catch can thing. It was a oneoff business, but with the creation of the Arab
Afghan Legion, the many rebrands of the mujahedeen, youve now got a cadre of people available any
time,anywheretheUnitedStatesgovernmentwantstodehouse,destabilize,
deculturalizeacountry.
BonnieFaulkner:MichaelSpringmann,thankyousomuch.
MichaelSpringmann:Well,thankyou.Iamhonoredanddelightedandquitehappytohavehelpedtoget
thewordouttopeoplewhoareinterestedinhearingit.
*****
IvebeenspeakingwithJ.MichaelSpringmann.Todaysshowhasbeen:VisasforAlQaeda.Michael
Springmann is a former diplomat in the State Departments Foreign Service, with postings to Germany,
India,SaudiArabia,andtheBureauofIntelligenceandResearchinWashington,D.C.HewasChiefofthe
NonImmigrantVisaSectioninJeddah,SaudiArabia,from1987to1989.HeistheauthorofVisasforAl
Qaeda:CIAHandoutsThatRockedTheWorldAnInsidersView.Heisthepublishedauthorofseveral
articles on national security themes, particularly those dealing with relations between the CIA and the
DepartmentofState.Heisnowanattorneyinprivatepractice,admittedtothebarsofWashington,D.C.,
Maryland, and Virginia. Contact him at info@daenapub.com. Visit his website at
www.michaelspringmann.com.
Guns and Butter is produced by Bonnie Faulkner, Yarrow Mahko and Tony Rango. Email us at
faulkner@gunsandbutter.org. Visit www.gunsandbutter.org to sign up for our email list and receive our
newsletter. Guns and Butter online now includes a new website, an active Twitter feed, show archives
andablog.Followusat#gandbradio.
ThetranscriptismadeavailablethroughGlobalResearch.
LinksandResources:
FullTranscript
MichaelSpringmannswebsite
VisasforAlQaeda:CIAHandoutsThatRockedtheWorld:AnInsidersView

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CopyrightJ.MichaelSpringmannandBonnieFaulkner,GunsandButter,2015

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