This is the transcript of an interview Ven.

Gelongma
Zamba Chzom had with H.H. Dudjom Yangsi
Rinpoche in his house at Pharping Nepal on the 13th
March 2014

Ani Zamba - Most of us we could not come here today as it was such short notice
and they are now in Boudhanath; but the group have come from Australia and Brazil
and Germany and most of them have come for the Dudjom Lingpa empowerments
that we thought were going to begin in March. We all came because we heard
Rinpoche was going to give these empowerments.
Dudjom Rinpoche - How many people in the group?
AZ - I think between 10 to 20 people from different countries. We did not know if
Rinpoche would give the empowerments first or if he would go to Bhutan first. And
many people came with the wish that Rinpoche would give the empowerments first,
as they cannot stay, because they cannot wait till he comes back from Bhutan. So its
quite sad for those people.
DR - The situation was that two years ago when I was here, I bestowed the complete
transmissions of the empowerments and the reading transmissions of the 25,000
pages of Jigdral Yeshe Dorjes (the previous incarnation of Dudjom Rinpoche)
collected works due to the kindness of Khenpo Zangpo, who sponsored that at his
monastery in Dollu and at that time there was some talk that - in the future maybe some talk of bestowing the transmissions of Dudjom Lingpa; but actually no specific
plans. Those details were not at all fixed, but many people started talking about it
and thinking that it was something sure, but in fact this was not the case. But now
there are really two main things that have to happen: First and foremost I would
need the permission of my Tsawai Lama (Root Lama) Sangye Chatral Rinpoche
to allow me to bestow these transmissions; without that, I would not do it. And
secondly there needs to be someone who requests this kind of transmission because
its not the case that just like that I would give all these wangs and lungs. And
now as I have returned and I understand there has been a lot of talking about this
transmission and Khenpo Zangpo has requested me to give it, so Im considering
that, but the main thing is that I need permission from Sangye Chatral Rinpoche
since my activity in regards to this must be in harmony with his wisdom intent.
Otherwise it would not be good at all for me to give this transmission. So this is kind
of the way things stand right now regarding these transmissions. So unless that is
the case, Im not going to give them, its not at all a certain thing.

AZ - Id like to explain a little bit to Rinpoche what is happening in Brazil at the

moment. In Brazil now the main practice for many people is the Dudjom Tersar - for
many people that is their Ngndro practice more than any other Ngndro practice
they do the Dudjom Tersar, and now the Nelu Rangjung is being introduced into
Brazil. When people heard that Rinpoche was going to give the Dudjom Lingpa
empowerments then many people thought how wonderful to be able to receive
these from the emanation of Dudjom Lingpa himself. There was just a whisper
that Rinpoche might give the Dudjom Lingpa empowerments. Then anybody who
had the conditions tried to come here, even though we knew it was not sure; even
though we knew it was not sure, that possibility was such a great blessing for
people, they came across the world in order to be here.
Can I show Rinpoche the books at the moment that have been published in English
already? This is based on the Nelug Rangjung, actually the Shamatha section from
the Nelug Rangjung (Stilling the Mind), its in English now. This is the Nang-jang
(Buddhahood Without Meditation) in English, that one we know already. Then Im
not sure what this text is called in tibetan, okay, The Foolish Dharma of an Idiot
Clothed in Mud and Feathers - Do you know that text? Another of Rinpoches texts
(I asked the translator but she did not know) and of course, Rinpoches, Dudjom
Lingpas autobiography. So now there is so much interest, more and more interest.
So today I would like to ask what is the best way to approach the practice of the
Nelug Rangjung - should people do the formal Ngndro, if so which Ngndro is the
best to practice? Or the Shamatha practice from the Nelug Rangjung - is it enough
to practice that, progressively working through the stages that are in the text, what
does Rinpoche suggest is the best?
DR - These texts for example, the Nang-jang and the Nelug Rangjung probably
within the entire body of collected works of Dudjom Lingpa are the most profound,
the most important and also we could say the most volatile or the most powerful
really, within the entire collected works. So therefore its my opinion that in order to
practice these, it is important to actually complete the full practice of the
preliminary practices of Ngndro and also on top of that to fully engage in the main
practices of Lama, Yidam, Khadro (The Three Roots) - accomplishment practices and to fully go through all of those stages. And of course now - it is the times these
days - that of course as there is quite easy access to these kind of texts - they have
been printed and distributed - so I dont think there is any harm in looking at it,
studying it and so on. As these are the degenerate times and in this kind of situation
that we have, since they are available, then I think there is no harm to study them. In
fact if we really want to practice this level of teachings then it is really important
that we actually clear away all of the negative karma, disturbing emotions and
habitual tendencies that obscure us. As whomever we are, as sentient beings, once
we have a body, that obscures us from being able to truly realize the fundamental
nature of reality - which is what is being presented within the context of this level
of great perfection teaching. And so these texts function as supports we could say,
they support, they are helpers that bring us to a place from where we can really
realize the genuine view of the great perfection teaching. But until and unless we

have completely cleansed all of the obscurations and hindrances that we come with
due to being endowed with negative karma - disturbing emotions and habitual
tendencies and so on - then were really not going to be able to actualize that view
and make use of this level of teaching. So this is the reason I think it is very
important to do the Ngndro practices, the full preliminary practices as well as the
main practices of Lama, Yidam, Khadro - accomplishment stage practices - as this is
what helps us cleanse. Through this we can gather the accumulations and cleanse
our minds, so that a new kind of awareness can dawn within us whereby the
practice of these will become fruitful and meaningful.
AZ - In the Nelug Rangjung, Dudjom Lingpa does not talk so much about the
Ngndro practices, not in the translation anyway, but there seems to be a lot of
emphasis on Shamatha. Is it possible just to practice Shamatha? Because it seems
the western culture has a strong connection with the Shamatha practice as a
grounding practice, more than they do with the actual Ngndro practices - that they
find quite alien. Is that a good enough basis, to really develop Shamatha to go further
into the path of the Nelug Rangjung?
DR - Basically, if somebody had the kind of discerning knowledge or wisdom - the
mental capacity we could say - to directly enter that level of teaching then - and if
there were signs of this - then of course, it is great and appropriate that they just go
right into it in that way. But when we think about it, Shamatha, Shamatha practice,
then generally many people in the world today are approaching Shamatha from the
perspective of just looking for a practice that just gives some feeling of physical and
mental well-being. Theres nothing wrong in that, thats fine, but they are looking
for a kind of a practice that also does not involve a lot of difficulties and that brings
some measure of harmony and well-being in the body and the mind. Wherever,
this is happening in the West, in China and so on. Theres nothing wrong with
this. However, from the perspective of the lineage and the teachings of Dharma,
we cannot really say that such is a kind of... perfectly pure way to enter into the
teachings. Just practicing only that does not fully qualify for, we could say, a way of
practicing. Actually to do that, only that, as the preliminaries for the Nelug Rangjung
- to enter the level of the Nelug Rangjung - we cannot say that that is the perfectly
perfect, cannot say it is a wholly perfect way to prepare ourselves to enter into that
level of the teachings. Nelug Rangjung, what does it mean - Nelug its talking about
the fundamental nature of all phenomena, actually the true nature of all reality, of
all that exists. Rangjung as being this aspect of self-arising wisdom and this is what
is being pointed out within this text, within this commentary - and actually this is
extremely difficult to realise.
And just from the basis of some practice of Shamatha this is very difficult to directly
realize - the fundamental nature of all phenomena as being self-arising wisdom - in
this way. This is very difficult because of this reason. So therefore it would be one
thing if Dudjom Lingpa had just taught the Nang-jang and the Nelug Rangjung, but in
fact he has 25 volumes of teachings - he taught so much, he taught the practices of
Ngndro, he taught many different kind of sadhanas on the three roots and wrote a
commentary also on the Ngndro practice very, very extensively - and so one way
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that is good to think about these is kind of causal and resultant teachings: so those
teachings of the Ngndro and so on are the causes that bring one gradually, stage by
stage, to that level of resultant teachings as presented within those two Dzogchen
treatises. So for beginners, therefore to directly kind of arrive at the ultimate final
result of the practices of Cutting through to Original Purity - Trekch - and Crossing
over into Spontaneous Presence - Tgal - practices of Dzogpa Chenpo is quite, quite
difficult. So that being said, however, you know - take me for an example, or even
anybody; whomever it is - we like these profound teachings whatever they are, the
teachings of the Yeshe Lama, the teachings on the Nelug Rangjung, the teachings on
the Nang-jang, teachings of the Sangwai Nyingpo, Guhyagarbha, those teachings
that are so extremely deep and profound and nyingpo (of the essence, of the heart);
we all like them very much and we have a kind of faith that is natural, a longing for
them, an aspiration to practice them and so on, which is very good; but what we
need to know is actually that when were looking at the words of those texts, those
words are not that profound meaning; and so we cant get mistaken by thinking that
the words themselves are the actual deep profound meaning that is being revealed
within this level of teaching, they are not. This ultimate meaning of this level of
teachings is something that completely transcends any attempt to speak about it, to
think about it and to express it in any way whatsoever, it is ineffable. So therefore, to
truly realize that ultimate meaning of these teachings, then we depend on words.
The words can be a support and its through them that we can arrive at the
realization of the actual meaning of them - but again the meaning and the realization
are not the words of these texts. Its like any kind of teaching: the words of the
Buddha himself, everything that he taught and so on - as well as all of the kinds of
teachings contained within the Kangyur and Tengyur, all that was written by the
later followers, all the aspects of the Treasure Revelations, Mind Treasures and
Earth Treasures and so on - all of these are simply ways that we can approach the
ultimate meaning based on the expression of it, based on the words for it. So this is
one important thing to keep in mind regarding that.
Im definitely not saying that it is not okay to approach those texts through
Shamatha - I am not saying that it is not okay to do that, but I am saying it is not
the fully perfect or qualified way of practice according to our lineage and to how
things are done. But of course there is the tradition that we follow, however the
master instructs and however our lama teaches us, so okay, -Heres the stages that
we need to do, you have to practice this first and this second and to progress in a
certain way. So thats according to our tradition, following in that kind of manner,
of course that is unmistaken; there is no mistaken aspect in doing that.
AZ - This is how it has been generally introduced into Brazil: That you can either
do the Ngndro (the formal preliminary practices) or you can do Shamatha practice
(Calm Abiding - Resting the mind). So Rinpoches clarification is so very important
as its seldom taught that it is a necessity to do the Ngndro practices. (As far as a
prerequisite for the study and practice of the Vajra Essence - Nelug Rangjung. This is
incredibly important to understand.)

DR - Its also absolutely the case that, whatever practice we do, it is usually based on
what we like and what we enjoy. Some people enjoy doing the preliminary practices
of the Ngndro teachings, other people mainly enjoy the main sadhana practices of
different kinds and so on while other people are drawn to like the pith instructions
that are more on the ultimate level and so on. We should understand that there are
so many different kinds of Dharma teachings based on, depending on, the different
mental faculties and incarnations dispositions of sentient beings. Of all these
different ones that have been taught, it is important that people should practice
based on what is in harmony with their own disposition and mental kind of
condition. So its not at all the case that Dharma practice is something that is kind of
ordered, or commanded, where someone says -You must do this kind of practice,
so thats of course not the case. No matter what it is that were doing - if we are
engaging in some kind of worldly activity or engaging in more of religious activities
that are directed towards the ultimate final results of liberation and omniscience we should definitely go at them or come at them from the place of devotion, come at
them from a place of real interest, being drawn to doing whatever it is we are doing
from a place of real interest. Some people are very much interested in the
Bodhisattvayana, the Bodhisattva path; other people are very much interested in the
teachings of the Hinayana and some of the practices of Shyin that are presented
therein; other people just find themselves drawn to teachings where they do
practices of Secret Mantra Vajrayana and so on. Some people are drawn to Throma
others are drawn to Phurba - of course, there are so many different kinds of
practices.
When we speak about Shamatha specifically, if we want to understand what is
the specific kind of traditional type of progression, before we engage in these
teachings it is not that, it is not with that practice that one would engage before the
teachings of Nang-jang and Nelug Rangjung. Then shamatha is not that, it is not that.
Nevertheless I think if you practice Shamatha continuously with great devotion
and interest and faith in that, then I feel nothing but rejoicing for that; I am very
happy about that, and so that is the most important thing: those aspects of feeling
great interest and devotion towards whatever it is youre choosing to practice. But
without that, if we do not have that real regard and faith in the teachings and were
just translating things here and there, just reading stuff without any of those aspects
of respect and genuine devotion, then we run into some problems, and that we could
consider as being somewhat mistaken.
AZ - Thats very helpful, thank you. I was Rinpoches student in his previous
lifetime and in the 70s I spent quite some time with Rinpoche. I was here for the
Dudjom Tersar when he gave the Dudjom Tersar in his previous incarnation and
then actually Rinpoche doesnt remember me, but we actually sat here together
with Rinpoche receiving a cycle of empowerments, from Moksa Rinpoche I believe,
Rinpoche was about 8 years old at that time and they were given here, maybe even
in this room (Rinpoche in the background is saying Yes he does remember and it was
in this very room that we are presently sitting in. That was about 14 years ago).

I personally have been through the traditional path. So when I see these teachings
being introduced into other countries, then theres not so much emphasis on the
Ngndro at all, its like either or. But it seems they dont see the real benefit, because
they want more people to access the teachings which are not just connected with so
called Vajrayana in the sense of all the elaborate practices. They want to introduce
the Dzogchen teachings in a simpler way where people can just get grounded in
their own mental processes by looking at Shamatha & Vipassana and Trekch &
Tgal without all the Yidam practices. I just wanted to hear from Rinpoche if that
was a good approach or if one should not go that way at all.
DR - So, theres many different ways of teaching the Dharma, thats for sure. For
some it is based on just getting familiar with the teachings of Shamatha and
Vipassana and then directly after that going into the practices of Trekch and Tgal.
I really cant say whether thats good or thats bad. I cant say whether it is good or it
is bad. The reason I cant say whether it is good is because when we actually look
traditionally at the way the Dharma has been presented and practiced then there is
a definite order to the practices, beginning from the preliminary practices of
Ngndro and then proceeding one thing at a time up to those. But the reason I also
cant say its bad is because depending on the dispositions of individual beings, it
could very well be the case that those who have some capacities and capabilities of
extremely sharp minds - then these teachings will really genuinely be benefitting
them. And so then, if I would be saying that is not good, then I would be basically be
saying that a cause leading to the omniscient state of Buddhahood would not be
good, but thats certainly not the case. Im never going to be saying that, but in
general I would reinforce and reiterate that the Dharma needs to be practiced in a
progressive manner, stage by stage. For myself, in the future this is the way I will
teach - I will definitely present the teachings in this manner. Its not that I couldnt
say directly -Here are the teachings of Nang-jang and Nelug Rangjung and go right
into this. I am not going to present it in this way. And another reason for this: This
is not the way my root teacher has taught me, not the way he enacted his
enlightened activity of teaching the Dharma. In fact, he told me himself -You have
been born as a tulku with a very big name and so on, but just as any other person
who comes into a body it is necessary for you also to consider yourself as a beginner
and to engage in the preliminary practices of Ngndro. Just the same as everybody
else, and therefore this is what is important for you to do and well before you reach
the teachings of Vajrayana and so on. This is what he told me and this is the way I
will teach.
So therefore I am going to go to Bhutan now and it might be the case that perhaps
you wont receive the opportunity to get these transmissions from Dudjom
Lingpa. I want to really tell you please do not worry about that and dont feel at all
disheartened or sad that you lost an opportunity because I myself am going to make
the prayers that in the future I will be able to give you whatever Dharma is needed,
whatever teachings are needed. This is the hopes that I have. I will make prayers for
this, so please dont worry in any way at all about it.

AZ - I hope Rinpoche will come to Brazil. I really request, deeply from my heart, that
he comes for the Brazilian people.
DR - Yes. I will also make prayers for that and even though I do not have one
hundred percent great extensive knowledge about everything, I have said the few
things that I know. Also in the future I will be able to teach you according to what
Im capable of and Im making these aspirations myself.
AZ - If Rinpoche does give the Dudjom Lingpa empowerments when he comes back
from Bhutan, does he know how long it will take?
DR - So yes, if it is conferred then probably when Rinpoche returns from Bhutan
then he will rest for one week before beginning. So then it will last one month in
total - one week for the wangs and the lungs take more time.
AZ - Thank you Rinpoche, Thank you very much.