R. D. Laing - 1984 - Conversations With Adam and Natasha (Old Yellow Book) (89p) (Inua) PDF

CONVERSATIONS
WITH
ADAM AND NATASHA
CONVERSATIONS
WITH
ADAM AND NATASHA
R. D.
Laing
Pantheon Books
New York
Copyright
All rights
1977 by
R. D.
Laing
reserved under International and Pan-American
Copyright Conventions. Published
in
the United States
Pantheon Books, a division of Random House,

simultaneously
Canada by Random House
in
Toronto. Hardcover edition published

division of
Random House,
The Library
of
Congress
Inc., in
Inc.,
of
Canada
in
York,
by Pantheon Books, a
title
as follows:
Publication Data
Laing, Ronald David
Conversations with
1
Adam and
Natasha.
Child Psychology Case studies.
Natasha
III.
BF721.L27
I.
Laing,
Adam.
Title.
155 4'092'6
77-5185
isbn 0-394-71473-3
Manufactured
in
and
Limited.
1977
originally cataloged this
Library of Congress Cataloging
by
New
the United States of
America
II
Laing,
To
my
family
Introduction
The conversations in this anthology were written down by me

memory over a six-year period as part of a journal I
keep. They are all recorded from memory. No tape record
ever was used. Nearly all were committed to paper within
from
twenty-four hours of occurring.
None
of
them was structured or
set
up They
.
are without exception part of the flux of uncontrived hap-
penings
that
occur in the course of
are in the habit of seeing
me
my
family
jotting things
life.
down
The children
a
lot of
my
done here or there, often with other people, including children, around. I do not think that the fact of writing
them down has significantly affected their character.
I've always enjoyed dialogue, repartee, and
interplay and reciprocity generally, with and without words.
However I have spent a considerable part of my life
studying unenjoyable communication, miscommuni cation
and failure to communicate, much of it in family contexts,
and in depicting, describing and theorizing about this domain
of misery. I have done so, largely because I attribute such
importance to the way we get on or not, with the people we
writing
is
live with.
It
affects
everything; our intellectual, spiritual
and physical bves, as well as our emotional and social. And

has immense consequences on how we spend our time
outside the family, 'making' history, etc.
Those who have studied painful interactions

have documented many ways in which we may do one another
in, not always knowing we are doing so, or being so done to.
Many nuances of ways we may confuse, deceive and mystify
ourselves and others, without often realizing we are, have
been described by
recent years.
the experts in this division of hell in
However, the other side of the story has not

nearly so much. The language of the happy
dialogue of intelligent beings has evolved to an amazing
degree of intricacy and complexity. When it is not knotted,
entangled and entangling, then instead of this being a deadening suffocating zone, it is the free and open space between
us where we can play with reality together, where we question
and answer, inquire into what is the case and what is not, for
the sheer heaven of it. The patterns of reciprocity which are
spun out of this activity synchronously and diachronically
are most succinctly epitomized for me, in music, through
been looked
at
counterpoint, in visual terms, in the interlace.

It
to
is
therefore a great pleasure and relief for
present these dialogues which express so
much
me
light-
hearted and serious delight not
that they are not sometimes

and savage, not that the dark side of things is missing,
but that, it seems to me, so far, hatred, spite, revenge,
jealousy, malice and envy, and the other blights on life, are
not seen here triumphant.
In the following pages, we are able to observe
the emotional and cognitive development of two children with
unimpaired faculties unfold within the interlace and interweave
of relations with adults whom they do not fear and whom they
;
fierce
like as they are liked.
After pondering
it
over a
lot,
have decided
not to introduce their conversations with a theoretical essay
on them, nor to footnote them in the many places where I

have felt tempted to do so. The best order, I think, is to let
them stand on their own, and for them to be read, in the first
place, with the fewest possible theoretical presuppositions.
Such theoretical considerations raised by them in many

relevant fields, psychoanalysis, developmental epistemology
communications theory, anthropology, can be taken up later.
In the meantime, I hope the professionals will find them useful.
Yes so many constructions can be placed on them In these
pages I shall not talk across or over them with my adult voice.
,
Since this
book
children
expect
adults,
is
and since
almost entirely taken up with the voices of

it
it
may be read as much by children as by

needs no professional or scientific ex-
pertise, that
will
it
be vead as readily by anyone as by adult
child 'experts'.
I
apparent
that
children as
it
it
is
hope
that these
is just
pages
will contribute to
as useful for adults to
for children to
be
in
making
in touch with
touch with adults.
We
Our understanding
learn about children, only from children.

of ourselves is
be
enormously impoverished
if
we
are out of
much from the

the other way round.
touch with childhood. Adults can suffer as

deprivation of children in their lives as
I
suspect that children play as important a part in adult 'growth
and development' as we adults do in theirs. I don't spend

time with them because I have to, or because I should, but
simply because I want to.
Having studied human communication for many
years professionally, I am very aware of what is left out in
this book. There are very few indications of the tempo,
rhythm, pitch, volume and timbre of the words on the page,
and hardly anything about the movements, expressions and
gestures which are inextricably part of the interactional dance.
These conversations emerge out of the time
before spoken speech. Both Adam and Natasha enjoyed and
enjoy, with no break of continuity, a most intimate reciprocity
with their mother, Jutta. The later reciprocal talking of these
pages is a form of exchange which emerges out of reciprocities already there.
Indeed, such was the richness of their earlier
epoch, before the onslaught of language
that
our pleasure
was tinged with sadness and

nostalgia for the subtlety of their music and dance before they
spoke. It's sometimes difficult to keep up with one's children:
not to mourn, in gaining a girl, a boy, the loss of babyhood
and infancy. And by the time this book is being read, the
children depicted in its pages will already have grown out of
having our children
to talk to us
their clothes several times.
Some of these conversations have struck some

people as so incredible, that I've been'asked if I made them
up. No. I did not. I could not. However much I would like to
lay claim to their invention I can vouch only for the fact that I
have added nothing.
am
responsible for deletions and,
suppose, inevitably, some inadvertent omissions. But I have

additions, no embellishments. I have selected. There
made no
are intimacies within family
life
which
am
old-fashioned
enough to believe are unseemly to reveal publicly. Indeed I

have hesitated for several years before coming to feel that it
does not offend my sense of propriety in disclosing this much
of a very private domain. This is done with the full accord of
my
wife -
and the children.
Need I say
have not spent

me. Their relation to
their mother, my wife, is only glimpsed in these pages, but
that should be enough to reveal the supreme importance she
has in this family's scheme of things.
Nevertheless, with those and other limitations,
as far as I know, no similar anthology dialogues with children
has been published.
also that the children
their lives having conversations with
R. D. Laing
June 1977
CONVERSATIONS
WITH
ADAM AND NATASHA
London
March
Adam
Daddy
have you a long pole?

no sorry
or a ladder?
what do you want it for?
I want to knock down the sun and break it in
two and give mummy it to cook and we '11 eat it
but what will we do without the sun in the sky?
Adam
Daddy
what's
Adam
it's
Daddy
Adam
Daddy
Adam
1970
don't like
it
wrong
with
it?
boring
Daddy
but the sun. I'm fond of the sun
Adam
I'll
Daddy
how?
Adam
I'll
get another
Adam
buy one
where ?
in Woolworths
Daddy
I'm glad
Daddy
Adam
I haven't got a ladder to reach the sun

what you would do with it
O daddy, (pause)
haven't you got one I could stand on tiptoe on
top of, and poke it out with a stick?
Ceylon
April 1971
if
Adam
that's
(on hearing of fighting, shooting
and
killing
Kandy, 14 miles away) I want to go to Kandy

and kill people and cut them up and eat them
in
for breakfast with a big steel
gun and a
stiff
trigger
Daddy
why?
Adam
Daddy
because I want to shoot a lot of people and kill

them so they'll be dead. Like I did last time
how do you mean last time ?
last time I was here
here?
Adam
last
Daddy
Adam
time
was
alive
Daddy
Adam
how do you know?

remember.
was a
soldier.
killed a lot of
people
Daddy
really
Adam
did you
kill
lot of
people
last
time
daddy?
don't think so
Daddy
Adam
not recently ?
Daddy
no
Adam
but did you
kill
a lot of people a long, long
time ago?
may have
Daddy
Adam
you
no
oh
Daddy
Adam
India
but
can't
remember!
can't
December
remember
{incredulously)
1971
After a storm
Adam
what's the decoration on the

(before
moon?
could answer)
man with a hammer. When

that's when he's angry
it's
London
it's
a storm,
February 1923
I'm
sitting in
my
armchair reading
her sobs, clambers o

away, tilts her head
my lap, positions herself upright, facing
and howls.
howls
howls and
fully back, and bursts into
elbows r
to cuddle her but she
Natasha walks
make
in, stifling
move
her
the tips of
arms away, and when I tentatively touch
she snatches
consolation,
of
fingers by way of some gesture
shneks, or
into
turn
to
threaten
them away, and her howls
time to
I have just
continue
howls
her
As
even sckreechs.
hug her,
to
matter,
the
check my impulses to ask her what's
is lowe:
she
as
before
comfort,
stroke her, or offer words of
at me for the first time, her

howl fades. In one smile she says hello, bye-bye, perhaps,
thanks daddy. With a sigh of completion, she gets down from
my lap, and without a word between us since she came in
and without looking back, she ambles out of the door, ready
for her next adventure.
ing her head and turning to look

last
February 1973
Before dinner
Natasha
Does
it
Adam
is
did
He denies
I
holding her head and howling.
need a
take his
stitch?
with his
it
it.
Is
it
bleeding?
No. Nothing serious.
rifle,
she says.
Then says he didn't mean it. That means he did.

and guns away from him, and put them up on
rifle
the top of a high shelf next to the ceiling.
At dinner
He
is
going
pour a bucket of water over
to
me when am
I
asleep in bed.
He is going to phone the police because

him and he knows their number.
He'll make a ladder and
And Natasha joins in on
is
going
and then
and
cut
to cut
my
his side
my head
nose
have been nasty
get his guns down.
She
off
off
have a secret place

and you won't be able to
'I'll
find
me'
After dinner
Adam
has found a
He comes
into
way
to get his rifle
my room
'I'm
with his
going
can't find
to
it'
put
it
and guns down.
rifle
where
(sic)
to
He puts
little
it
away
later
he comes
Adam
Me
Adam
in with
You might
No. You
just
again to show
not believe
believe you.
I'll
it
just
It's
me
me
alright
might not believe me.
show you
He goes
off with the rifle again, to hide it once more where

he can't find it. In a few minutes he's back with the rifle,
showing me it, almost pedagogically to make trebly sure I
believe it. He goes off. A little later he's back, dressed in a
green commando suit, with tin hat and rifle.
,
Adam
Me
Adam
Attention.
Order
hours
Adam and
about
I order him about

Quick March. Halt. Stand
.
at
ease. Shoulder arms.
later. Past their
bedtime.
Natasha are drawing. Peace and Quiet
He has borrowed from me my

tips
some work done do you mind
aw come on order me about
Quick march
It is
me
I'm trying to get
tin of
special pens, pencils,
felt
and nibs
Ah Now he 's
!
just spilled the lot
over the
floor
Arrggh
February 1973
The Grand Old Man bends a long way down,
out of politeness {so that his eyes are level with
Natasha's),
Do you
Natasha
and inquires, with kindly solemnity
being you?
being me. I'm a very nice girl, and a
very intelligent girl, and everyone likes me.
yes
Even
like
like
mummv
mummy
lilr=><? m*
likes
me.
February 1973
Natasha
Daddy. Would you
like
Mummy
to
be your
mummy?
March
Adam
Me
Adam
Me
What are you reading?

poems
Haven't you any hate poems?
love
I'm just trying to read these just

don't
Adam
1973
now
you
if
mind
(with glee)
Why
don't you write
some
hate
poems?
22 April 1973
Jutta,
Adam and
tomorrow
Natasha are
to stay with Jutta 's
off to Stuttgart
parents for a week.
Bedtime
Daddy
I'm sad you're going away Natasha
Natasha
I'm not sad today,
Jutta
and
I'll
be sad tomorrow
haven't been getting on very well
recently. Natasha has
become
interested in
and sellotape, in cutting things up and

sticking them together.
glue,
now she is dashing from one wall of my

room to the other, thudding against them
Just
Ronnie
Natasha
yes (she continued thudding against the walls)
Ronnie
Natasha
and what does the heart do?

the heart loves (she stopped dashing and
Ronnie
the heart loves?
Natasha
yes
Ronnie
who? what?
Natasha
many people
one heart loves many?
the one heart loves many many
thudding)
Ronnie
Natasha
the one heart loves

the
July 1973
Adam
and how would you

it's
Daddy
Adam
Daddy
like
it if
come on daddy
your turn
someone shoved spaghetti up your nose

and how would you like it if someone mixed up
sand and water into some sort of cement and
put it down your throat
and how would you like it if someone put you
if
- as large as
in a large tub
this
room -
of
treacle
Adam
Daddy
Adam
and
and
and
you
how would you

how would you
like
cut off your nose
it if I
be then
there (patting
weeny
(split
me
like
there) in
cut
it if I
bits (illustrating
forefinger)
Adam
it if I
cut off your arms,

body, and legs, and head - where would
would you
Daddy
like
and
my body and how
your body into teeny

with right thumb and
cut these
little
bits into
little
bits
second's hesitation)
(before
can get
my
breath)
where would you
be then?
Daddy
(he's got
Adam
(pressing
Daddy
don't
me
on the run)
home
know
his
advance) you
tell
me
Adam
November
1973
Evening
and
Jutta
have had a quarrel, and she has
gone
to a party alone.
am
sitting, writing, in
a bad mood.
Natasha comes into the room, and
starts to
She crumbles a length of

around.
fiddle with sellotape.

it,
Daddy
and
spirals
it
what are you doing?

want to make a sword
Natasha
Daddy
(testily)
I
You
can't
make
sword out
was annoyed she hadn't confirmed

it was an umbilical cord. Still.
of sellotape
my
theory
that
She takes two pieces of white paper, and folds
each exactly alike

Natasha
this is
and
mummy
this is
piece
daddy piece
She sellotapes them together and puts them on

my desk
you
Natasha
This
Daddy
thank you, Natasha
is
for both of
She takes four pieces of paper and the sellotape goes away and comes back in a few
minutes
:
She has folded and sellotaped two sets of two

pieces
Natasha
This one's for
one's for
room)
you (giving
mummy
(taking
it
it
to
me), and
this
with her to her
Later the
same evening
Adam, Natasha and I have been flying paper

now it's quiet. Adam is watching
TV in the children's room
aeroplanes
Natasha
I
Natasha
am
is sitting
sitting at
my
reflectively
in*
desk nearby
my
armchair
December
Adam
is
allowed, on his own, to play with a match box, to
take matches out of the
Natasha
1973
is
box and
to strike matches.
allowed, on her own, to play with a match box, to
take matches out, but not to strike them.

Just
now, she can, because I'm around.
Natasha
blowing them
and musing, disconsolately)
(striking matches,
Striking
is
out,
better than taking out
Then, brightening up
but
can leave* more than
December
Adam
1973
I'm sitting writing
Scraps have been occurring to me.

I
Mummy
even see
can't
why
a flea
can't
let
when
is
so
wee
even see
alone where
I'll
be
die
(talking to myself)
Where
know
Natasha
shall
be when
I.
die? (pause)
should
Nor does anyone know
December
don't
know
better)
that
1973
The Emperor had the most beautiful palace in

the world so that all the people passing by
would be sure to notice it
all
Natasha
(rather primly, as though
nor do
Jutta
can't breathe
*that is,
10
on her plate
won't read anymore
Jutta
Natasha
I'm holding
if
you go on
Jutta
I'm finished. Put out the light
Natasha
Jutta
put
want
it
it
like that
my breath
on
out
want
on
Natasha
Jutta
I'm not going to
Natasha
a million hurts
it
tell
you a
million times
me
1973
Natasha
is
holding onto one of
standing lighting
my
pipe
lighted ash or sparks will
Me
you shouldn't hold onto

lighting
Natasha
my
fall
my
my
legs as
'm frightened
am
some
on her
leg
when
I'm
pipe or you'll burn yourself
you shouldn't hold onto someone's leg when

you're lighting your pipe or you'll burn yourself
January 1974
Daddy
Adam
Natasha
why did the peacock scream?

because he couldn't see himself
because he wanted to hear himself
January 1974
Me
Adam
don't do that
I
will
if
you won't
let
me
January 1974
Kira
Adam
Me
Adam
why are you

I
is
following
me
following her?
follow her
'cos she follows
11
me
1974
Natasha and
Adam
these days. They
them more than

Natasha
(to Jutta)
to
me
Jutta thinks is
gave
for them.
good
them.
for
daddy because he buys me
love
are very fond of smarties
come
smarties
Daddy
(somewhat
Natasha
yes
that's
hurt) is that
why
why you
love daddy?
love you
a few days later
Daddy
have you any smarties ?

yes (and gave her some)
Natasha
and
Daddy
I've got
Natasha
for
Adam?
some
for
him too
She went away with them, and came back

she had eaten them.
Natasha
after
I love you daddy. I don't just love you because

you bring me smarties. It's not just because you
bring
me
smarties
January 1974
Afternoon
Natasha
hatchet
is hitting
a wicket chair with a
made by Adam
this
wooden
afternoon
Ok
Natasha
that's enough (it goes on) that's enough (it

goes on) stop it (she continues) I'll take the
hatchet away (even harder bangs) I'll take the
hatchet away and put you out of the room
I'll hit you in the eye first
Daddy
Ok
Daddy
wrest the hatchet out of her wrist and seize
to drag her out of the

room. But she's already walking out herself and
her wrist. I'm prepared
12
just as
get to the door to slam
slammed
it
right
on
my
it
on her, she's
back at me
face, flinging
as she marches off
Now
you've locked
it
For Ever and Ever
Evening
been somewhat hectic. A boxing match with

Adam. A tickling session with both of them. It's
It's
quiet again, though I'm feeling a bit frayed, like

that
tie
wool lying around they've been using
floor in the
it
Natasha
Me
Natasha
to
onto chair and table legs to stretch across the
hope
of tripping people up.
gather
up, slump on a chair, and, absently, wind
it
what do you think you're doing

some wool
you're winding up yourself, that's what you're
doing. You're winding up yourself that's what
/ think you're doing
I'm winding up
January 1974
Adam
what do shells do?
Daddy
they're like bombs.

That's
They explode and destroy.
all.
Adam
but you can take the detonator out
Daddy
er,
yes - you can. And if they can't explode

anymore they can become an ornament.
Like
this.
This, is three shells (a larger one, standing
upright,
and two smaller ones) arranged
to-
gether as a crucifix with the figure of Christ

Crucified on the cross they form.
my
mantelpiece
Daddy
You can do
Adam
what's that?
Daddy
it's
13
that with
man being
them
crucified
have
it
on
Adam
Daddy
what's 'crucified'?
they used to
make a
trunks, stick
it
on
it
like that
large cross out of tree
in the
till
ground and
nail
someone
they died
Adam
why
Daddy
to
Adam
Thursday
23 January 1974
Natasha
(listening to the clavichord) That's beautiful.
did they do that to people ?
punish people. They don't do
know. They put them
That's very difficult,
very
difficult
things
in gaol
that
now
or treat them
can easily do
by
practising
February 1974
Daddy
first thing you saw when you came

mummy's tummy?
mummy's pussa, that's the first thing saw when
I came out of mummy's tummy
and what was mummy's pussa like?
mummy's pussa was like mummy's secret
heart, that's what mummy's pussa was like
and what was mummy's secret heart like?
mummy's secret heart was like your two eyes,
that's what mummy's secret heart was like
what was the
out of
Natasha
Daddy
Natasha
Daddy
Natasha
Daddy
Natasha
Daddy
Natasha
Daddy
Natasha
Daddy
Natasha
and what are my two eyes like?

your two eyes are like your nose,
that's what your two eyes are like
and what is my nose like?
your nose's like your teeth,
that's what your nose is like
and what are my teeth like?
your teeth are like your toes,
that's what your teeth are like
and what are my toes like?
your toes are like your fingers,
14
that's
what your toes are
my
like
Daddy
and what are
Natasha
your fingers are like your throat,

that's what your fingers are like
Daddy
and what
Natasha
your throat
is
my
fingers like?
throat like?
between your knees

what your throat is like
and what is between my knees like?
between your knees is like between your eyes,
that's what between your knees is like
and what is between your eyes like ?
is like
that's
Daddy
Natasha
Daddy
Natasha
Daddy
Natasha
between your eyes is like your next head,

that's what between your eyes is like
and what is my next head like?
don't be silly
22
Old
gentleman
Natasha
March
1974
what can Natasha do?
can blow up most balloons myself
Winter 1974
Daddy
Natasha.
Natasha
can
Daddy
Daddy
no I have to go away by myself for a little while

and you're coming back in a little while?
yes
Natasha
alright
Natasha
have
come
to
go away
for a
little
daddy
{reflective silence)
but daddy?
Daddy
Natasha
Daddy
Natasha
yes Natasha
do you love me daddy ?

I do love you Natasha
well if you love me you have to
me be near you
you have to let me be near you
yes
love
15
me
while
with you?
let
if
you
Natasha
April 1974
here
a present for you and Jutta
is
you
it's
for both of
it's
a ball of wire
found the wire
would
made
it
it
garden and I thought I

you and Jutta a present so I
in the
like to give
into a ball
didn't take long
you can play with it if you like

you can throw it to each other if you
I don't mind if it falls,
if it's an accident
and I don't mind if it breaks,
if it's
it's
I'll
Me
fix
it it
won't take long
thank you Natasha

I'll
Natasha
an accident
alright
put
it
my
here on
desk
yes you must take care of
you can throw

it's
for both of
it
to
you
it
each other
like
30 April 1974
Natasha
Natasha
is
playing with Natasha
herself) fast
(to
(pointing to her nose)
this is
(pointing to her eyes)
this is
(pointing to her foot)
this is
(pointing to her mouth)
this is
(pointing to her bottom)
this is
(pointing to her ankle)
this is
my foot
my nose
my eyes
my neck
my head
my wrist
pause
faster
my face is my tummy
my tummy's my eyes
my eyes are my tongue
my tongue is my ankles
my ankles are my hands
pause
cross your hands
cross your legs
cross your eyes
cross your nose
gurgles of amusement
11
June 1974
my
Natasha
study
(with abrupt unsolicited finality)
there's no monster in this
Daddy
room
Oh
Natasha
No.
Daddy
How
looked under the mat (conclusively)

could a monster be under the mat?
She looks
17
at
me
as though
don't
know an/thing
July 1974
Natasha
don't
need a night
light
anymore daddy
I'm not afraid of the dark anymore 'cos
don't
see pictures anymore
Daddy
a night light's
still
you don't have

Natasha
No. But
to
nice though
be
have one
anymore
afraid to
don't see pictures
11 July 1974
Natasha
are you sad?
Jutta
yes
Natasha
are you sad about
Jutta
yes
Natasha
I still
shall
Jutta
Natasha
I'll
life ?
you (pause)
be your mummy?
like
I
Natasha
be your
a rest for a
Jutta
alright
Natasha
alright
mummy
little
and you can have
while, alright?
She gives Jutta a hug and a kiss and runs

She returns after a few minutes
I
don't want to be your
Was
you Natasha
Jutta
yes. Thank
Natasha
that's alright.
You
Jutta
yes
18
mummy
that nice ?
little
less sad
now?
anymore
off.
15 July 1974
August 1974
Ever since Natasha has been putting her shoes on herself (for
more than a year now), she has almost always put them on the
'wrong'
It
feet.
could not have been a random error.
year ago, for two or three months, she always put them on
wrong feet, and refused to change them. This used to
the
Jutta who would insist she change them before going

and predicted dire consequences to her feet, and to her,
bother
out,
if
she didn't.
few months, she has been coming

mornings and asking
In the last
the
'Is it
Occasionally
Last
week
is
it
is,
the
into
my room
right'
but usually
first
it
isn't
week ever,
that they
have been
every time.
August 1974
Bedtime. Tuck
Adam
in
in.
Say your Prayers
'right'
Adam
September 1974
20 October 1974
me to do up her shoe or boot laces.

few weeks ago I was doing them several times a day.
She specifies which foot first, what pattern, how firm, the
Natasha often asks
type of knot, and the size of bow.

It
all
has
to
be precisely symmetrical.
Until the last
two weeks
it
always had
to
be a double
knot.
But now,
now, daddy, it's alright,

sound anymore, you needn't
daddy, "cos they don't make a sound
you needn't do
they don't
thai
make
do that,
anymore
27
October 1974
Charlie
Natasha
is
three
Charlie hugs people because he doesn't like
them. That's
Natasha
November
why he hugs them
1974
you can't tie your two shoe laces at once

because you can't do two times at once
1974
Natasha
how long does
22
forty
minutes take?
November
Adam
1974
Ronnie
Ronnie
what was
Natasha
(laughing)
Ronnie
if
it?
don't
know
you don 't know what
the one thing
is
remember how do you know

remember it?
Natasha
Ronnie
what did you say ?

if you don't know what
Ronnie
no
Ronnie
then
Natasha
there's one thing
Ronnie
Oh. what's that?

first
Natasha
one thing
how can you
say that then?

I
do know
lady forward, second lady back
up the second lady's crack

there nothing else you know ?
(slowly) Septimus Branigan he was there
He put up a magnificent show
He shoved his tagger up his arse
first
Ronnie
can't
can't
Natasha
Natasha
the
is
remember how do you know I can't

remember it?
I don't know
you don't know how you know there's one
thing I can't remember?
I
Natasha
can't
Oh
lady's finger
really ?
and
is
Ronnie
And tied it in a bow

Oh is there nothing else you know
Natasha
I'm going to
I'll
tell
Adam
be back (she runs
than that?
something
off
and comes back
shortly)
I
forgot one
me
Ronnie
don't
Natasha
landing on her
Ronnie
Natasha
do you remember
Ronnie
Natasha
yes
Ronnie
yes
tell
tits
don't want to talk about
do you
Natasha
say
Ronnie
it
still
remember
want
come on Daddy
25
it?
then
really don't
ones
Natasha
it
it?
to.
I'm sorry
told
you these
Ronnie
the minister's wife she
she had us
Natasha
was there
all in fits
jumping off the

and landing on
and landing on
and landing on
mantelpiece
her
tits
her
tits
her
tits
(peals of laughter)
She runs
and comes back
off
made up
I've
in a
few seconds
a few
Ronnie
Oh
Natasha
two tomatoes crossing the road

you never made that up you heard
Ronnie
really? what?
it
from
someone
Natasha
no
Ronnie
I'd
Natasha
didn't.
made
that
one up
heard it before
No you haven't
I made that one up myself
And
off
she runs again
December
1974
After midnight
my room trailing her quilt.

dark apart from a desk lamp. She stands
Natasha comes into

It's
silently for a while.
Natasha
When
Daddy
(testily)
Natasha
I'm not going to
Daddy
(gruffly)
are you going to

don't know.
bed
you go to bed
bed whenever you like
know you're up. I just want to
you can go
as long as
don't
bed daddy?
Why?
till
to
work I don't want to hear you or see you anymore tonight, alright?
Natasha
alright you'll
Daddy
I'm sorry Natasha.
Natasha
that's the
have
only
way
to
I
carry
me
out
don't feel like
you'll get
me
it
out of the
room
Daddy
Natasha
No
and
you'll
have
to
carry
bed and snuggle me
Daddy
all
the
(softening) alright as long as this
This
Daddy
me
is
way
to
my
in
is
the last time.
definitely the last time tonight
(picking her up) promise
Natasha
(being carried) promise
Daddy
(tuggling her in) you promised before
Natasha
I know. The last time was the very very last time
and this is the very very very last time
(snuggling in) say your prayers
(kissing her) I mean it this time. Goodnight
Daddy
Natasha
Daddy
Natasha
Daddy
walking away - calling out)
Natasha
(as
Daddy
say your prayers

(at the door - in a Voud whisper)
yes
will.
is
And you
Natasha
goodnight Daddy
Daddy
goodnight Natasha
11
December
say your prayers
1974
Natasha opens the door of

in Charlie.
He slumps
my room and
ushers
against the wall
whimpering
Me
what's the matter Charlie?
Charlie
(eventually) I'm afraid of the Chinese puzzle
Me
Why?
Charlie
(eventually) there are baddies in
Me
how do you mean?
Charlie
there are baddies in
Natasha
gave
it
it
to the cat
Me
What The Chinese puzzle
Natasha
Yes.
gave
Charlie ran
Me
it
to the cat. It's alright Charlie
off,
looking
what did he mean?

27
it
more scared
than ever
Me
how ?
when he
Natasha
it's
Me
well?
Natasha
Natasha
the Chinese are baddies

he thought there were actual baddies actually
inside the Chinese puzzle
you told him
no I didn't
and now he'll think there are actual Chinese
baddies inside the cat
no he will not
anyhow why do you say the Chinese are
baddies ?
1 heard it on television
Me
really
Natasha
Me
Me
Natasha
Me
Natasha
Me
said there
were baddies
in
Natasha
they are baddies because they
Me
Me
some baddies everywhere

the Chinese are some baddies
there are some baddies everywhere
Natasha
no there 're not
Natasha
it
a Chinese puzzle
kill
people
there are
December
17
1974
Dinner
A
Natasha
Lady
Natasha
lady
is
yattering on and on
do you hear what you're saying

(startled) Thank God (giggle)
(severely) if you wiggle your ear with every
mind in you your chair might go up
No
28
December
1974
Car drive from London
to
Devon
Adam and
Natasha will not stop squabbling,

squawking, squawling in the back seat
Jutta
you don't shut up, I'm going

you
well go ahead then
just don't be so cheeky
Natasha
I'm going to run
Jutta
well run
Jutta
if
to
leave the pair
of
Natasha
Natasha
away
away then
how can I run away when
lam?
January 1975
hope I'm dead when
Natasha
Monday
16
Natasha
February 1975
die
don't
know where
Natasha
Ronnie
yes you were I don't like you any more

there's one from mummy
and one from daddy

and the two of them become one
and the whole of that one is you
absolutely terrifying
Jutta
it's
Ronnie
what
Jutta
crushing
is ?
Natasha
all that into
left
the
one
room and came back
in a
little
while with two pieces of paper, out of the
middle of each of which she had cut two circles

Natasha
one hole for you (giving one piece to

and here's one hole for you (giving one
piece to me)
here
is
Jutta)
Jutta
Ronnie
Natasha
Oh
thank you Natasha
(to Jutta) I give up the fight

and they are friends again
3 April 1975
Adam
Daddy
what
Adam
this
Natasha
standing looking seriously puzzled
stairway wasn't even here,
until
22
is
is it?
they put
May
it
here
1975
bless
mummy and
Adam and
Natasha and
God
God
30
bless everything.
daddy and
Good-bye
Devon
May
1975
Ronnie
no one knows God but He knows

and He knows Himself
how do you know that?
Natasha
Ronnie
but you
Natasha
Natasha
us,
know how know it

know it
Yes. And no one can see God
but He can see us and
He can see Himself
He could be in this house
He could be outside the door
He could knock on the door
but He would have to knock very hard
don't
for us to
Ronnie
yes
Natasha
No we
hear Him, wouldn't he?
don't hear the God-knocks (with a sad
chuckle)
Ronnie
Natasha
Ronnie
He would have to knock on the God-door

and where shall we say the God-door is?
how would someone like me know where the
God-door is?
do you think God minds us talking about Him
like this?
Natasha
No. He doesn't mind

(pause)
maybe we can see through Him,

like
your glasses (laughing, seriously,
quizzically)
(pause)
do you think so?
know (pause)
Ronnie
Natasha
see through Him but not see Him (musing)

He can see Himself. We can't see Him.
don't
Some gods can see Him. He can see

(she
is
saying
I
this)
can't look at
every page tonight otherwise
get to stay up late and be tired so
daddy
Ronnie
alright Natasha
32
us.
leafing through the Bible as she is
I '11
I'll
go now
We
are in a large delightful bedroom. Natasha
up a spray of flowers
Jutta.' Now, after the
foregoing conversation, she sits on the bed, in
silence, contemplating me on the floor, surrounded with sheaves of paper reading what I
have been writing, scoring out, tearing up,
cutting and piecing together, arranging and re-
had
earlier brought
'These are for you and
arranging.
Natasha
you've done an awful
Ronnie
know
Natasha
think you've almost finished your
Ronnie
I'm very glad to hear
lot of
it. I
writing
book*
sure hope so
Are you sure?

yes. you've almost finished
Natasha
it
(kisses)
I'm going downstairs
now
Ronnie
alright, thanks for the flowers
Natasha
I'm not going to bed, but you can say good-
goodnight
night
if
you want
to
Ronnie
goodnight Natasha
Natasha
goodnight Ronnie
Sunday
25
May
1975
jump on you?
Natasha
can
David
yes
Natasha
are you sure?
David
yes
Natasha
I'm five
now you know
not four and three
quarters
turned out
to
*She was right. I was almost

be The Facts of Life.
33
at the
end
of
what
Tuesday
Natasha
15 July 1975
Tony says
he
Me
is
Natasha
his father is a giant.
bigger than Joan (her teacher)

he bigger than me?
is
don't
know
She has been measuring people's heights by a length of string
and a tape
She wants
rule.
hands' length she
is.
She
is
me
to tell
seven
of
her
my
how many
of
my
hands long.
July 1975
Natasha explains
Adam
to
Harry can't marry his mummy and

Lucy can't marry her daddy and
you
Sunday
can't
marry
me
27 July 1975
Natasha persuaded
Jutta
small screwdriver.
It
is
recently to
buy her a
nicely proportioned
with a blue handle
Natasha
do you
Ronnie
yes
Natasha
do you
Ronnie
yes.
Natasha
it's
like
do.
It's
my
screwdriver?
very sweet
It's
it's very sweet?

very pretty
think
the smallest screwdriver in the house.
Isn't it? Is
it
the smallest screwdriver in the
house ?
Ronnie
Natasha
Ronnie
it
might well be. I'm not absolutely sure
you need to screw anything, you can use

I'll let you use it whenever you want to
thank you very much
if
34
it.
you keep
will
we
alright,
take
it
for
can put
me?
it
on
whenever you
it
my
desk, and you can
like
alright
She
left
taking
has kept
with
on my desk for a few days, sometimes

away, and putting it back. Then she
it
it
it
herself. Last night she
went
to
bed
it.
(as Jutta is tuggling in)
my little screwdriver.
my little screwdriver.
I'm going to sleep with
Thank you
like
it.
It's
for giving
the smallest
one
in the
whole house
29 July 1975
Early evening
and
Jutta
are sitting around talking with friends
Natasha comes in the room with boxing gloves

on,
and a pair
for
me.
you have a boxing match?

no not just now. I'm talking just now.
will
don't feel like
will
it
just
now
you have a boxing match
well,
later ?
maybe
you have a boxing match with me later, when

you don't need to talk, alright Daddy? You
have a boxing match with me when you don't
need to talk anymore.
Alright
Daddy?
onnie
alright Natasha
atasha
might marry Matthew (reflective pause)
And
if he won't marry me, I might

marry Anthony (another reflective pause)
And if he won't marry me, I might
marry Andrew (long pause)
35
Ronnie
Natasha
and if he wouldn't marry you, whom

would you marry?
if he wouldn't marry me, I might marry Michael
Ronnie
Jutta
Natasha
and if he wouldn't marry you?

you haven't mentioned Charlie
Mmmmnunm. I'll marry who I like
4 August 1975
Natasha wants
me
wood and
stick of
While I'm fixing

Natasha
Ronnie
am
to
make her
my arm?
why
not?
this is
bow
with a
it
allowed a piece of
than
a length of string.
wood
that's
longer
about the length of your arm,
isn't it?
ami?
Natasha
but
Ronnie
what?
allowed it
I suppose
Natasha
Ronnie
as
She
if it's
longer than
my arm?
no rule against
know. So yes. You're allowed it
still
so. There's
it,
as far
looks unconvinced
August 1975
cradling
Jutta is
Natasha
(softly
Max
and sweetly
for Jutta to
to herself,
but loud enough
hear her)
have a lovely mummy I have a kind mummy

have a beautiful mummy called Jutta
(and then with no pause, suddenly, in a sharp
peremptory tone)
Have you put new sheets in my bed ?
I
Jutta
not yet.
36
will. Later.
Natasha
are you putting
Jutta
yes
Natasha
Max
you
(reproachfully)
in
my bed ?
usuallly put
him
in
Adam's
bed
Jutta
(on the defensive) not always
Natasha
and you said I could hold him as well as Adam

and you let Adam hold him and not me and it's
not
fair
word handed Max
Jutta without a
Natasha
to
Natasha
(rocking Max) you're beautiful
queen
think you're a
everyone wouldn't
I
think you're beautiful
Ronnie
queen
everyone wouldn't
you think he's a what?
I don't want to tell you
a queen?
Natasha
yes
Ronnie
Natasha
think you're a
shouldn't have said anything. She started to
sing him 'My Grandfather's Clock'.
Jutta
August 1975
(To
Adam and
voice which
Natasha
in a
quiet
commanding
brooked no nonsense)
Tidy your beds, straighten your pillows, fold
your sheets
They
set about
Adam
you're
Natasha
No. I'm doing
Adam
Natasha
Adam
Natasha
it.
this because you have

because I want to
you're doing it because you have to
No. I'm doing it because I want to
mummy told us to so we have to
I sail don't have to if I don't want to
37
just
doing
it
to
Adam
The
Natasha
no.
Ronnie
you're getting bigger every day,
ball
so the ball
is
getting smaller
may seem
to
you
to
be
getting smaller
she
Jutta
is
growing
at
such a rate
these days
Natasha
the ball
getting smaller
is
August 1975
why did the boy throw

window?
Natasha
the clock out
the
Adam
because he wanted
Devon
August 1975
It's
a sultry
Natasha
to
see time
summer's day by a waterfall.

naked on a rock, singing
is sitting
for
say
to
many
to herself
away
I'm going
I'm sad
fly*
a day
(pause)
I'm going
for
many
away
a
day
unless you call
(longer pause, but not very long)

Please don't call
want
for
for
many
*A
patient of
to stay
away
asked
Why
Jutta
a day
mine once
ate
her favourite record
Jutta
did that girl eat the record?

because she wanted the music inside her
39
Devon
August 1975
Hot Summer's morning
am absorbed in reading and brooding over The

Agamemnon of Aeschylus, deep in the labyrinth of
that
dark legend.
Someone
is
tugging
my
beard.
Daddy?
Natasha must have been standing there for some time
Daddy ? (twirling my beard) Have you

how to smile daddy?
Ah! That's a smile. Cheerio daddy
Tuesday
forgotten
August 1975
Natasha has
become
intrigued
She has been turning

all
by a
cubical box.
around looking
it
at
it
curiously, from
angles.
Now
to
she has cut out two of its sides, and has been showing
everyone around. She is fairly jumping with excitement.
Look daddy. If you look through

you can't see the bottom of it
Devon
August 197S
Natasha
I've
Daddy
let
Natasha
yes
tell
it
it,
found a wiggly tooth
me
feel
it.
yes
naughty tooth. I'm not going

anyone about it
that's the
Daddy
why
Natasha
I've told
to
not?
going
everyone here about it. But I'm not

anyone in London about it
to tell
Daddy
No?
Natasha
No. Because
about
it, it
it's
a secret and
told
if I
everyone
wouldn't be a secret anymore,
Daddy
would it?
no I suppose
Monday
it
wouldn't
September 1975
At breakfast
Adam
when I'm
ten you'll be eight and
when
I'm thirteen you'll be eleven because

I'm two years older than you
Natasha
can't get older than
you but
can get bigger
than you
Adam
Natasha
you can get bigger than

you doubt it
Adam
Yes.
41
doubt
it
me
but
doubt
it
Monday
September 1975
Morning
Jutta
would you go over
to the
house and bring back
a bottle of milk and
some
butter please
Adam
Jutta
Adam how many
times do
to
Adam
continues doing what he

I
is
have
Adam
doing
to
ask you
do something
Jutta
what?
would you go over to the house and bring
a bottle of milk and some butter please
Adam
No
Jutta
Ronnie
Ronnie
Jutta
what?
asked
I've
just
Ronnie
Jutta
Ronnie
Adam
Ronnie
Adam
Daddy
Adam
won't do
twice to do something and he
it
do what?
go and get milk and butter from the house
didn't you hear mummy ask you?
yes but I don't have to
she was asking you nicely, I'm telling you
you mean I can't refuse
you can refuse, but if you do I'll be very
unpleasant to you
to
to
Adam
in
what way?
Daddy
in
Adam
in
some way
what way?
Daddy
just
Adam
but in what
Daddy
you won't get any
He
do
it
way?
biscuits today
started calculating.
My
eyes narrowed.
My
tone changed
just
get moving or you're in big trouble with
me
right
now
Adam
you mean
Daddy
yes
He went
42
I've got to
September 197S
In a
compartment on the
I've
cleaned
my
train
hands, can
touch
no
ho ho ho. Yes
no
Ronnie said no is yes
yes is no
ho ho ho
no means yes
and yes means no
Ronnie said yes
No
Natasha
alright
daddy
September 1975
Playing ball with Natasha
more throws
more
three
six
after three
three
more
more
well alright
after these three
more
one more
well this
is
the last one
after the last
one
one more
the very last one
well this
is
after the
very
last
one
one more
well this
43
is
the very very last
one
Max?
very very
after the
Natasha
I'm running
And away
off
last
one
now
she ran with never a glance behind
her
No very very very
London
last
time
September 197S
Evening
Suddenly
as
lay
was
tired.
had
to stretch out. Just
down
you
my
Natasha
will
Daddy
sorry Natasha I'm tired
untie
want you
balloon?
my
Natasha
but
Daddy
but not now

Ooh daddy but want you to do it now
sorry not now not now. I've got to shut my eyes
and not move anything for a few minutes
Natasha
Daddy
later, in
to untie
about ten minutes
balloon
maybe
(silence)
Natasha
Daddy
Natasha
do you think one balloon is enough?

it depends what for
when it's my birthday would you buy me one
balloon?
Adam's birthday was yesterday. There had been

dozens of balloons
at his
birthday party
Daddy
Oh I would
Natasha
As many as Adam. More if you want

and how many would you get me if it
Daddy
wasn't
Natasha
Natasha
my
get you a packet of balloons
birthday?
would get you a packet of balloons

if you really wanted anytime
but do you think one's enough?
I
was puzzled.
think one's
44
said nothing
enough
Then she burst

Accidently.
the one she
was holding.
startled.
Oh sorry daddy
Oh I popped my
balloon
sorry
daddy (and she ran off to mummy)

mummy I popped my balloon, mummy
popped my balloon
13
September 1975
can everyone in the whole world

smile?
Thursday
18
September 1975
might just make one of my inventions

what inventions?
I have made many inventions
how many?
many
four
and what are they?

my first invention was a space capsule
with
many
capabilities
oh yes
and my second invention was a darikrex
a what?
a da - ikrex*
I have never heard of a darikrex
I
invented the
name
and what is it
it's a machine that shoots out
shoots what out?
of three tubes
*the following day (19 September) there was a

report in the I.T.H. on work by Drs Herbert and Irving Dardik
on umbilical cord transplant surgery
45
Adam
bananas, peas and tomatoes
Ronnie
really! ?
Adam
and
my
was a carriage for

have a specially designed
third invention
crushing snow.
It
will
cabin
Jutta
will
Adam
it
use
Tuesday
be cold?
be centrally heated,
it
will
to
avoid having to
electricity.
October 1975
Morning
Natasha
daddy
Daddy
yes Natasha
Natasha
I still
Daddy
Natasha
don't know how to do knots

you soon will
I know. But Daddy.
I put my shoe on before Adam
in
shoes
Evening
Natasha
(swishing her arm)
Daddy
yes.
Natasha
how
fast
Daddy
I'm not sure
Wednesday
does a car go
does
November
As we were
after
my arm go?
1975
sitting
around the table with friends
dinner Natasha came in with a bottle
Natasha
look
Ronnie
Oh
Natasha
do you
Ronnie
it's
46
faster than that
think so. I'm not sure, actually
like
alright
my
bottle
Natasha
I'm collecting bottles
Ronnie
Natasha
oh why?
so I'll have more than
Ronnie
how
interesting.
Adam
And what
else
is
'More than Adam?'

Natasha
after I've
had a
water over
my
bath.
pour more
hair
know
Ronnie
really
Natasha
Ronnie
and I'm going to fill all my bottles

up with water
then you'll have more water than Adam
Natasha
yes (clinching
Wednesday
12
didn't
November
that
it)
1975
Late afternoon
As
was walking home
met Natasha and
Matthew. Natasha said *Hello Daddy'.

I
walked on hearing her say
my
to
We
Matthew
kissed.
'That's
daddy.'
About thirty minutes later, Natasha came in

bathroom while I was having a bath. She
stood looking at me. And continued to stand
the
looking.
Daddy
Ronnie
Well?
are you the same daddy I kissed in the street?
{irritably) yes (pause) YES! Why?
are you the same daddy?
YES why? Do you think I may not be?
your hair is shorter
yes it's shorter
Natasha
it's
Ronnie
no
Natasha
Ronnie
Natasha
Ronnie
Natasha
grown shorter (doubtfully)

hasn't grown shorter
it
(pause)
I
had
feel a
47
it
me. I
There was a
cut shorter (she doesn't believe
pang
of panic) yes
It's
true.
man
here (the
in
pened) who
He
Natasha
my
just cut
No / see
shampoo
hair before
you came home
looks shorter because you have
It
time this has ever hap-
first
cuts hair.
on.
(That's a relief. At least she's discarded the
theory
Ronnie
Natasha
it
because
it
No.
I'm a different daddy)
that
yes. But
see.
you look
actually shorter
is
was cut shorter

It
looks shorter and
different
And she went
November
out the bathroom
Wednesday
12
Adam
what did one candle say
1975
to the
other
candle ?
know
Daddy
Adam
I'm going out tonight
Tuesday
18
don't
November
1975
Evening
going away
Jutta
(teasing) I'm
Adam
(laughing) you can't
and
if
you go away
November
do
because
you
that
I'll kill
love you
1975
Same evening. Later

Natasha
Daddy
Oh
Natasha
Daddy
even
wish
could marry you daddy
Natasha.
We
can't
know because you're married
48
if I
weren't,
we
couldn't
to
mummy
because you're my daughter and I'm

your daddy and daughters and daddys
aren't allowed to get married
Natasha
we 're
Daddy
yes
Natasha
Adam
mummy's in the same family, so how can

you be married to her?
when mummy and I met she wasn't your
mummy and we were not members of the same
family and she isn't my daughter so it was
alright to get married and have children
by putting your penis into mummy's
Daddy
and become a family and get married
same
in the
family
but
Daddy
vagina
Jutta
it's
Daddy
yes
bedtime now
it's past your bedtime
Natasha
but I'm not sleepy
Daddy
never said you were. Anyway. Kisses, (kisses)

and you're to go through to your room and be
I
quiet
Adam
(kissing Jutta) Natasha
daddy, and
20
am
sitting
Natasha
futta
is
November
would like to marry

marry you.
like to
1975
reading Lovejoy's The Great Chain of Being.
holding Max, whirling around,
announces 'Dinner
Natasha yells 'Charge

fter
would
!'
and
sets off at a gallop, but stops
three or four steps
Sorry Max.
didn't
know had you

I
in
my
arms.
Charge
And resumes her gallop, this time holding Max, as she says
,hese days 'knowingly' or 'rememberingly'.
49
Tuesday
25
November
1975
At dinner
and me) were you two born together?

out of the same mummy
same time?
Natasha
(to Jutta
Ronnie
did
Natasha
yes
no we were born
we come
at the
Ronnie
different
grannies
at different times,
and came out of two

mummies who are your two
different places,
December
1975
are you older than Margaret
yes Margaret
two weeks younger
is
than
me
how
old are you?
think
I'm thirty-six
are you older than
Adam?
am, Natasha
I'm not the youngest in this house now. Even if
Max gets older he'll never get older than me.
I'll always be older than him won't I mummy?
of course
yes Natasha
is
daddy older than Arthur?
yes Natasha
December
1975
Xmas
(exulting after two glasses of wine)
Come
to
don't
be
Heaven
silly, Heaven
dead
is
January 1976
I'm in the bath. Natasha
(pointing to
my
is
standing beside
it
right knee)
what's that?
that's a
what's
it's
birthmark
it
for?
just there.
My dad had
what did you want

I
didn't want
it. I
it
one on
just got
She says nothing. She
knee
is
it
not
persuaded
you've got brown eyes. You've

51
his right
for?
just
got them
Natasha
but
Ronnie
and
Natasha
yes
Ronnie
Oh
wanted brown eyes

why you got them?
that's
pondered over
Well,
Natasha
Ronnie
Natasha
Ronnie
is
information for a
this
little
there anything about you you didn't
want?
no
you wanted
to
be a
girlie
and not a boyie?
(indignantly) yes
nothing at
all
you
didn't
want?
Natasha's eyes roll right up so

whites, as she scan i
all
see only their
the possibilities. After a
long pause
Natasha
didn't want to
be
itchy
February 1976
As I'm
setting off for a
Chinese restaurant
to
bring a meal back for the family
Natasha
will
Ronnie
Oh
Natasha
Ronnie
Natasha
Ronnie
Natasha
Ronnie
Natasha
Ronnie
Natasha
you give
yes. But
me
it's
a carry on your shoulders?
a cold winter's night outside
know. Will there be ghosts?

may be
there may be ghosts out there?
have you ever met a ghost?
no
how do you know?
there
know
but
if
you've never met a ghost,
know what
I know
a ghost
is
Ronnie
what's a ghost like?
Natasha
it's
Ronnie
Oh
how do you
like?
white, and it scares people. The white

comes up from under it
52
comes down
if it
to its feet it's
not
a ghost
how do you know
that?
on television
Oh come on! most of what's on the
television is just what people make up seen
I've
it
it's
not necessarily true
Oh
but
its
know
ankles
it
that
isn't
that's correct.
You
that,
or do you?
no
don't
but you
know
if it
has white over
don't
it?
you know quite a

don't
know
lot of
things
know
and there's quite a lot you know

and don't know that you know it
I
know
don't think
know more
than you
know
Later,
coming out
the sky
I
of the restaurant
red
wish there weren't these streetlights
then
I
is
we
could really see the sky
wish the sky was
down here
and then? then we could

I would lie on it
53
down
know how you know
yes
it
a real ghost
fly
on
it
to
Saturday
14
February 1976
Natasha and
Adam
have been quarrelling
wish he were dead
Natasha
Jutta
Oh
Natasha
Natasha
wish his seed had been crushed and he
never had been

Jutta
but Natasha! Adam's your brother
Natasha
and you would miss him

I want to miss him
Sunday
14
March
1976
This morning Natasha was angry at Jutta and

because we shouted at her for shouting
why do you have
Natasha
(to Jutta)
Jutta
Natasha
Natasha
you tell a he every day

no I don't
you tell millions of lies
Ronnie
what lies?
Natasha
I'm not telling you anything
Jutta
don't
to lie like that?
lie
had promised Adam and Natasha

them some sweets if.
I
Natasha
Daddy
Natasha
Daddy
would give
daddy when are we going to get some sweets?

when mummy comes back
is she bringing them back?
no. When mummy comes back I'll give you and
Adam some money to go out and get some
sweets
Natasha
me
you cheat
Daddy
why?
Natasha
you said you would give us the sweets

54
Daddy
mummy comes back I'll go out and

some sweets, and bring them back and
give them to you and Adam - is that all right?
ok when
get
Natasha
yes
Daddy
if
Natasha
yes
you take care

ok?
We
Tuesday
of
Max
till
mummy
comes back
each kept our side of the bargain
April 1976
Last night
Natasha
are you staying upstairs?
Daddy
no
Natasha
Daddy
Daddy
you could stay up here

no I'll stay with you. Where you go
I'll go
if you go downstairs I'll go downstairs
if you go upstairs I'll go upstairs
you could stay upstairs when I go downstairs
then I'll get a creepy feeling
what sort of creepy feeling ?
a creepy feeling like there was a ghost upstairs
what sort of a ghost?
Natasha
a real ghost
Devon
9 April 1976
Natasha
Daddy
Natasha
Daddy
Natasha
think
I'll
go downstairs
in
about two minutes
thought you were going to say that
Evening
we going home ?
Natasha
when
Daddy
the day after
Natasha
when
Daddy
it's
Natasha
two sleeps
55
are
is
tomorrow
that?
tonight
and
Daddy
it '8
tonight
Natasha
it's
two sleeps
Daddy
you sleep tonight that's one sleep

and then it's tomorrow. At the end
of tomorrow you have another sleep
and when you wake up from that sleep
it's the day after tomorrow and that's
the day we go home
I have a sleep tonight for tomorrow
and another sleep for the day we go home.
Natasha
and one sleep

in all
That's two sleeps
Daddy
right
Natasha
Daddy
do you know what's the name

no
do you want me to tell you?
Natasha
yes
Daddy
the
name
Natasha
Oh
Saturday
Daddy
Yes And do you know the name

day after tomorrow?
No. What is it?
Sunday
Sunday
Natasha
Daddy
Natasha
tomorrow
of
is
of
tomorrow?
Saturday
of the
April 1976
Natasha
why
Daddy
Natasha
Daddy
did the ink run?
don't
know
because
a what?
it
was a repelling pencil
Natasha
a repelling pencil
Daddy
I've
Natasha
never heard
know you
of a repelling pencil
haven't
Later
Natasha
Daddy
Natasha
have you written that one down?

no
are you going to?
56
well I'm not quite sure about

but it doesn't sound quite
it
it
like what's the quickest
the
way
same
to
as the others
double your
money ?
fold
it
why do
birds
south?
fly
because it's too far to walk

what is a sleeping bull?
a bulldozer.
It
and do you know the name

that comes after Sunday?
of the
day
Saturday
No. Saturday comes before Sunday.
The name of the day

Sunday is Monday
that
comes
after
Monday
and the day after
Tuesday
and after that?
that?
Wednesday
and
after that?
(thinks)
Thursday, and after that?

Friday
and
after that?
Saturday
and what day
is
this?
Monday
no
it
comes before Saturday because
Saturday's tomorrow
Friday.
It's
Friday
Later
it's
going
to
that's right,
57
be my birthday soon
only fourteen days
Ronnie
what date ?
Jutta
the twenty-fourth
Natasha
Ronnie
what's the hurry
Natasha
can't wait
till
it's
my
can't wait to get all
I'm going to get
birthday
my
presents
more presents
than
Adam
aren't I?
Ronnie
not necessarily.
Adam
gets presents on his
birthday and you get presents on yours.
know who will get most

I'll get more presents than Adam
don't
Natasha
but
on
Ronnie
my
birthday
Oh yes you don't have to worry about that.

When it's Adam's birthday he gets all the
presents and you don't get any and on your
birthday you'll get
all
the presents
and
Adam
won't get any

Natasha
but Omilie
mother)
(Jutta' s
may send him
present
Jutta
that's right.
She normally sends something
to
everyone
Ronnie
well you'll
still
get
more
than
Adam
on your
birthday
Natasha wants a toy walky-talky and a real

calculating
Saturday
Natasha
machine
for
her birthday
10 April 1976
you're older than
Jutta
and you're bigger
than Jutta
Me
Natasha
uhuh
Jutta
can never get older than you
(reassuringly) but she could get bigger than
you
Me
Natasha
Me
no she cannot get bigger than me

she might (pause) why not?
because we've both stopped growing
58
you've both stopped growing?

yes
I
haven't stopped growing. I've got a
growing
Me
to
lot of
do yet
know
(pause)
Natasha
Daddy? How
Me
forty-eight
old are you?
(pause)
Natasha
when
Me
will
stop growing?
know maybe some
don't
time around
eighteen
how
Natasha
is that
Me
no. Jutta 's twice as old as eighteen. She's
old Jutta is?
thirty-six
Natasha
eighteen and
same word
Me
they don't sound quite the same
forty-eight
sound the
word when
you're
forty-eight
(pause)
Natasha
there 's a
than
Me
Oh
we
man who
said
Adam and
are younger
are
really.
How
could you be younger than you
are?
know
what he said
Natasha
Me
did you ask him what he meant?
Natasha
no I did not
what was he like ?
his fingers cracked when he moved them
Me
Natasha
don't
that's just
fast
like this
(suddenly giving a most convincingly alarming

demonstration)
Me
Natasha
Me
Natasha
and not when he moved them slowly

and what do you think he meant?
I expect he meant what he said
you wouldn't care to put what he meant into
any other words?
No. I do not care to put it into any other words
59
Daddy
at
Adam
Oh know know was
Daddy
you said
Adam
Daddy
breakfast on Saturday morning

I
just
joking
didn't
you said to Natasha that if she swore

to God and broke her word God would
hate her
Adam
no I didn't. I said if she made a

promise to God and didn't keep
it,
it's
a sin
Daddy
Adam
that
heard you say

was just joking.
never said
anything like that

Jutta
he's a real wriggler. He'll try to wriggle
Adam
Daddy
just
way
his
was
out of anything
just
joking
joking about that sort of thing
is
a sin
Adam
Daddy
well don't ever again
never said anything
May
like that
1976
Natasha
daddy would you undo my button,

because when I undo it, it ends up
being done up
Wednesday
12
May
1976
Last night
Adam
Daddy
Can I have three pounds for the school?

what for?
Adam
I'm making a radio set with Frank, and
some
Daddy
Oh
Adam
yes. Frank's paid for
Daddy
Oh
61
we need
parts
well
them out of his money

suppose so - who's Frank anyway?
Adam
Frank knows
all
sorts of things - about science,
he knows the names of all the birds, and

stars and astronomy. You would really like to
talk to Frank and he knows about trees and
uh hu but what is Frank then?
Frank's the headmaster of the secondary school
Oh really! Frank. He's the Headmaster. Frank.
birds
Daddy
Adam
Daddy
Adam
Daddy
Adam
Daddy
Adam
Daddy
Adam
what's he like?
he sometimes gets angry
Oh does he? what happens then?
he starts to shout. He shouts

what?
he shouts 'stop it
stop what?
Oh he doesn't like us carrying on making a lot
of noise - messing things up - breaking things.
You would like to talk to him about science,
about the stars, and about the galaxies, and
!
nebulae, and about trees, and birds.
Thursday
13
May
1976
Natasha
daddy?
Daddy
yes Natasha
Natasha
do people tell the truth on television?

sometimes they do and sometimes they don't
Daddy
Natasha
when do
Daddy
there
Natasha
do they
Daddy
The News?
sometimes they do and sometimes they
is
they
tell
the truth?
no way of knowing
tell
the truth
when
that for
sometimes they tell lies

and sometimes they just
truth?
Daddy
yep
62
sure
it's
don't
Natasha
tell
the
Saturday
IS
May
1976
Natasha
daddy?
Daddy
uh uh?
when's your birthday?
my birthday's in October
is it tomorrow?
Oh no, October is a lot of
tomorrows away (pause)
why do you think it's tomorrow?
because you've been waiting so long
but you wait just as long
no I don't
everyone waits the same number of sleeps,
or days between birthdays (pause)
Do you think some people wait longer
Natasha
Daddy
Natasha
Daddy
Natasha
Daddy
Natasha
Daddy
than others?
Natasha
yes
May
Max
Daddy
1976
is
Natasha
There
Daddy
Will
is
out.
you take Max
want
to
work
for half an
hour
no reply
is
Natasha
No
Daddy
crying. Jutta
reply
Natasha,
if
you take Max
for half
an hour
give you five pence
Natasha
alright
She takes Max. After ten minutes
Natasha
how many
Daddy
ten minutes
Natasha
but ten minutes
Daddy
no
63
it
isn't
minutes
is
now?
more
than half an hour
I'll
She swings Max up and down, up and down

and with every down swing
Natasha
Daddy
pussycat
Mummy
yes pussycat take him
Natasha
something
what?
Mummy
some germs
Natasha
you've
just
bad
that are
Daddy
how?
the soup's
Daddy
the soup's the
Natasha
you
no it
Daddy
mummy's soup
for us
changed its taste

same though it
the soup's
hasn't
Natasha
yes
Daddy
mine's the same
Natasha
well mine's different.
Daddy
the soup's the same.
it
He may have
made me unhungry
Natasha
isn't,
off.
tastes different to
changed
changed
has
the cat
made
don't want it now

Mummy's remark about
I
a difference to
you but not
to the
soup
Natasha
well
how does
that
make
the
soup
taste
different?
June 1976
Natasha
Daddy
Natasha
Daddy
Natasha
if
everyone always has
their birthday
on the
same date, how does anyone get older than

anyone else?
no one ever gets older than anyone else
Oh!
and no one ever gets younger than anyone else
Oh!
(j>ause)
Daddy
No one
Natasha
Oh
gets older than anyone else

Because everyone always has their
birthday on the same date
She
65
still
hasn't 'got'
it
Adam
is
June 1976
new
ringing our
front
door
bell,
which chimes, for
fun.
hear myself shouting
Stop
that.
know
Wednesday
it
Don't do that again unless
isn't
you
June 1976
Slowly
Jutta
Monday Tuesday Wednesday Friday Saturday

No. Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday
Friday Saturday Sunday
Natasha
Monday Tuesday Wednesday Friday Saturday
Natasha
Sunday
Jutta

Natasha
Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Saturday

Friday Sunday
Jutta

Natasha
Jutta
Natasha
Jutta
Sunday Monday Tuesday Wednesday Friday

Saturday Sunday
No. Sunday Monday Tuesday Wednesday
Thursday Friday Saturday
Sunday Tuesday Wednesday Friday Saturday
Saturday Sunday
No Sunday Monday Tuesday Wednesday
!
Ronnie
Natasha
Natasha
yes
Ronnie
Natasha
Presto e poco a poco accel. a prestissimo
Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Friday

Saturday Sunday
66
Natasha
Monday Tuesday Wednesday
Ronnie
Thursday Friday Saturday Sunday

Wednesday Thursday Friday
Natasha
Ronnie
Natasha
Ronnie
Natasha
Ronnie
Natasha
Ronnie
Natasha
Ronnie
Natasha
Ronnie
Natasha
Ronnie
Natasha
Ronnie
Natasha
Wednesday Friday Thursday

Sunday Monday Tuesday
Sunday Monday Tuesday
Wednesday Thursday Friday Saturday
Wednesday Thursday Friday Saturday
Sunday Monday Tuesday Wednesday
Sunday Monday Tuesday Wednesday
Ronnie
Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday
Natasha
Ronnie

Natasha
Monday Tuesday Wednesday Friday
Ronnie
Sunday Saturday
you missed out Thursday and you reversed
Saturday and Sunday
Natasha doubles up
on the
back
Ronnie
falls off
her chair
over
Sunday Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday

Friday Saturday
Natasha
rolls
floor gurgling, splurtling then climbs
Monday Tuesday Friday Sunday
67
Ronnie
you missed out Sunday at the beginning.

Wednesday and Thursday in the middle,
replaced Saturday by Sunday at the end
Natasha again 'creases' up into helpless gurgles
and splurtles, falls on the floor rolls over and
over and clambers up again for more

Ronnie
Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Friday

Saturday Sunday
Natasha

Saturday Friday Sunday Monday
Ronnie
you reversed Friday and Saturday

and put in Monday
Repeat performance
Natasha
more daddy, more
Daddy
that tickles
Natasha
you, doesn't
it?
back of your brain

yes (gurgling and chorkling) yes
daddy, it does. Tickle me daddy
Sol did
it
tickles the
Sunday
27 June 1976
Natasha
reading in silence
is
Natasha
can you hear
Jutta
no, Natasha
me read?
June 1976
Natasha
Can God kill himself?

don't know
Mummy
Sunday
28 June 1976
Monty is an old friend

met him before
Natasha
who
the
Monty
Natasha
the
of
mine. Natasha hasn't
gets up in the morning and goes to
shop?
don't
know
shopkeeper
told Monty that Jutta had told me that Natasha

had asked her 'Can God kill himself?'
I
Monty
there
is
an incredibly close relationship between
sex and death.

is
saying. She
is
will tell
and
Monty
precisely. She wishes to
without
God
masturbate?'
'Does Daddy masturbate?'
Ronnie
that is
you what the question
asking 'Does
know whether you do
mummy, whether you need mummy
whether she can do
it
with you instead of
mummy
there you go
I
hope you don't mind me being so
Oh
69
not at
all
direct
it
Wednesday
30 Jane 1976
A
Adam
few days ago
Daddy
have you heard

which one?
this one
which one ?
this one
aw come on
Daddy
Adam
Daddy
Adam
was
this
one?
man see
Adam
well there
Daddy
yes
Adam
when he was a boy his

asked him what he wanted and he asked
his father to give him a brain so his father gave
him a television set and then he grew up a bit
and he became a teenager and his father asked
him what he wanted and he asked his father to
give him a brain so his father gave him a house
then he grew, up and became a man and his
father again asked him what he wanted and he
now
this
don't interrupt and
father
cried 'Father! will you give
me
a brain!' so his
Daddy
gave him a car and he was driving the car

and had an accident, lost most of his brains with
brain damage and he was in the ambulance
being taken to hospital, with his brain damage
you see, and his father was sitting beside him
and he said to his father 'Father you should
have given me a brain.'
I don't know whether I think that's funny
Natasha
Daddy
Oh
father
or not
think
70
it's
funny
well then
Thursday
8 July 1976
One
Adam
David
of
Adam's
kiss David good night, mummy

(aged eight) Oh I'm sorry I only allow myself
be kissed by
Monday
Adam
friends stayed the night last night.
28 July 1976
my mummy and
other relatives
to
Natasha
(nonplussed) but
Adam
said they're the pretend
matches
Daddy
well this one's
Natasha
can
lit
have a go ?
She takes the box, takes a match out of
Natasha
but these are the pretend matches
Daddy
that's
Natasha
but they are the pretend matches
Daddy
Adam
Natasha
but
Daddy
well?
what
Adam
must have made a mistake
put them there
can
Daddy
No. They're not very many.
them
Natasha
Oh
Daddy
well,
Natasha
Daddy
Natasha
Daddy
Natasha
strikes
said
Natasha
she
it,
lights
it. It
try
all
can
another
I
don't want
used up
try another
ok
tries another.
It lit
also
some are pretend matches and some are real

bet you they're all real
I put them exactly there
Adam must have changed the matches
No. No one could have changed them.
(pause) Oh Daddy! (in extreme vexation).
(pause). The matches must have changed
August 1976
Natasha
and what
Ronnie
some words
is
'swearing'?
refer to
they are used
God and
trivially,
Divine things.
words,
Natasha
that's swearing
what does 'refer to' mean?
Ronnie
the
word
table
72
If
or mixed up with nasty
table refers to
an actual
Natasha
oh yes (impatiently)
and what does 'trivial' mean
Ronnie
unimportant
Natasha
daddy ?
Ronnie
yes
Natasha
daddy, what's the opposite of near?
Ronnie
far
Natasha
and what's the opposite
Ronnie
king
Natasha
and what's the opposite
Ronnie
Natasha
hell
of
queen?
of
heaven?
Ronnie
and say them one after the other

how do you mean?
Natasha
say the opposite of near
Ronnie
far
Natasha
and the opposite
Ronnie
yes, ok. far king hell
Natasha
you swore daddy
Ronnie
yes
Natasha
you said farking

daddy!
of
hell
daddy you swore

!
August 1976
Natasha
to Paul,
her grown-up half-brother
Could you make your

were a child?
Adam
Me
Adam
why
I
73
laugh
when you
did the skeleton not jump over the
don't
'cos
mummy
know
he didn't have any guts
cliff?
Corfu*
September 1976
The wind
is
moving
the clouds
and shaking the
branches
Natasha
is
the
Nina
moon shaking
younger than
is
Nina
can you spell well?
Adam
Adam and
spells
very well
can spell better than you and you can even
spell better than
me
September 1976
Natasha
what's the
Arthur
Natasha
your
Natasha
Arthur
that's alright with
don't
first
thing
you put
in a
garden?
know
foot
don't want to sleep in
my bed
tonight
Natasha
me. You can sleep

anywhere as far as I'm concerned
I'm going to sleep with you then
Kira
so
Nina
so
Arthur
(laughing) you can't do that
Natasha
why
am
am I
can't
not? Janette sleeps with you so

I
why
sleep with you or Kira sleep with
you or Nina sleep with you

Arthur
(laughing) I'm just sleeping with Janette
Natasha
that's not fair Arthur, that's not fair
*We spent the month of September '76, in Corfu,

living together with friends Arthur and Janet, and their
children, Kira (aged 8) and Nina (aged 7).
74
Ronnie
Anyway. Where do you want
Natasha
Nina
Kira
want
want
want
to
sleep?
to sleep in his nostril

to sleep in his
ear
daddy's penis
to sleep inside
September 1976
Natasha
is
holding up a
Everyone
have you seen Max's

no
Natasha
its
little
wheel
invisible car?
got invisible doors, invisible
seats,
an invisible engine, and
three invisible wheels.

It's
- invisible]
September 1976
Fish for lunch
Adam
Ronnie
(to me) supposing you were very very very

hungry you had no food, and you were going
die of starvation, would you eat your wife?
you mean Jutta?
Adam
yes
Ronnie
not
if
she were alive.
completely dead, and
If
I
she were
would die
there was nothing to eat,
her body.
might,
to
if
might eat
might
Arthur
who knows who we're
Ronnie
would you eat mummy?

no I wouldn't eat mummy
would you eat Max?
would you eat me?
do you know that Buddhist story ? a couple come
to a desert with their son. There is nothing to
eat. They are starving. They have to cross the
desert. The father offers himself to be eaten, and
Adam
Jutta
Ronnie
Arthur
75
eating
now?
the wife. But they decide that the pair of
them
without a child have a chance, but one of them
with a child has no chance. They can always
have another
So they eat their son.
child.
the Buddhists say that anything

eat as though
Ronnie
it's
or one's grannie. This
my
own
one's
fish
we
eat
we
And
should
child
could be
grannie
Janette
do you recognize her by
Ronnie
my
the smell?
grannie always dreamed of swimming in the
fish and
was happy just swimming around as she had
always dreamed of when she was caught and
Mediterranean, so she reincarnated as a
now we're
Adam
eating her
(credulously) did your grannie
No
Ronnie
(interrupting)
Jutta
this
Arthur
you're the only one
conversation
made
just
is
putting
it
it
up
me
off
seems
to
my
food
have taken
this
way
10
Adam
September 1976
Adam
why don't you write a book on

swearing?
a book on swearing?
yes. Write a book on what swearing means. You
know, fuckin' hell, and fuckin' this and fuckin'
that and expressions like that. Write a book and
tell people what that sort of thing means
Corfu
September 1976
Ronnie
For days, not a cloud

Mediterranean sun
Adam
Do you
think the sun
the clouds?
76
in the sky. Just that
is
having his revenge on
10
September 1976
few of Adam's questions today,
his ninth
birthday
How
Why
Why
hand-grenade regulated ?
mercury?
the timing of a
is
Does lead
sink in
does even a grain of sand sink in water?

does even one drop of water fall through
the air?
and,
Why
Saturday
11
does a bazooka tremble?
September 1976
Adam eats breakfast as much standing or jumping

up and down as sitting. How many times has he
been
told to say please and thank you and pass

back what has been passed to him and to look
where the honey or the jam or the butter is
before calling out for
it.
and
Arthur
look
at
me when you
ask for something
Adam
and
Jutta
eat with
your mouth empty
Adam
eat with
my mouth empty
Ronnie
Adam
he got you
ho ho ho
Ronnie
anyway
Adam
this
time
it's obvious what she meant

speak with your mouth shut
mean, Daddy
Natasha
Ronnie,
Daddy
yes Natasha
my
Natasha
how many years
Daddy
but Natasha, I've told you, from one birthday to

the next
year
77
till
till
birthday?
is one year, so it's always less than a

your next birthday
Natasha
me
tells
that she's
never had a nightmare
September 1976
over a toy
In a dispute
Natasha
Adam
he gave
he gave
/ gave it
it
to
me
it
to
you and
me
to
September 1976
The stars are out. We're all off
on the beach. Arthur leading the
After dinner.
make
fire
to
way.
Natasha
Daddy
Daddy
Yes, Natasha
And
you give
? Will
hoist
long shall
her up on
still
my
be able
my
me
a carry?
shoulders. For
to
do
how
that?
Natasha
but don't crackle
Daddy
alright
Natasha
Arthur's crackled them already
toes
Natasha
Ah Now
!
allowed
I'm no longer the only one
to crackle
who
is
her toes
Night
we
are lying on our backs surveying the stars
Daddy
how
Adam
do you mean 'who made
Daddy
well not exactly, but alright
Adam
a dead
Daddy
a dead
Adam
yes.
78
did
all this
come about?
it?'?
man
man? how do you mean?
A dead human being
!
Tuesday
September 1976
14
At breakfast
Daddy
what did you mean by a dead human being?
Adam
A ghost?
a ghost, a
Daddy
Adam
yes when you die. One spirit goes up (indicating

from the top of his head) and another goes down
- the good one goes up and the bad one goes
Daddy
and they are both
spirit
spirit
down
in us while
we
are
alive?
yes
and how do you mean a

no I don't really mean a
spirit
spirit
made
made
all this?
all this
the stars?
were there before we were.

some people say God made it. God's a
the stars
spirit.
But
Do you
yes
God made
God exists Arthur?
God exists
don't think
it.
think
think
God must have been born

how could God be born? If he
exists,
he must be
always, forever
how did God walk on

who made God?
the earth then?
and anyway
mummy and you made me

make you
where did I come from then?
people come from people. And God made
(to
Arthur)
we
didn't
the first people

People come from creatures who were like
monkeys. They had smaller brains. And they
came from other creatures. Before they were

them there were dinosaurs and things like that,
and fishes and the sea. This planet is like the
stars. It comes from gases. And then things
79
began
to
grow and some grew
into people.
And
they developed science and technology, from

iron and metals, and
made
things,
Wednesday
15
we have
and telephones
aeroplanes and
- they developed
things like
now, knives and razor blades,

and typewriters, and cars and
telescopes and things like that
science and technology, that's
how we
find out
by science
September 1976
During supper
Adam
Daddy
Adam
Come on, come on

how do you mean 'Come on, come on'?
Come on, Come on. Swear! Swear! Let me
hear you swearing.
Daddy
come
on,
swearing.
ing?
Adam
come on
yourself.
Why do
you want
to
don't feel like
hear
me
swear-
Arthur looked quite relieved. Adam was livid. I've never seen
him so enraged. He was hopping mad. He threw himself on
the sand, and squirmed and twitched around like an eel with
frustration.
He blamed
Arthur
Don't blame
Adam
No
Jutta
Adam
Daddy
me
for turning back.
was way
It
off
wasn't
it
Jutta
on Arthur,
all
it
had been watching from the shore
You were only half-way there

No we weren't. We were almost there
No we were not almost there It was
still far away Definitely too far away
.
Adam
it
wasn't
Daddy
It
was
Arthur
Adam
Your
(he wasn't listening)
mummy
Adam
she did not
Daddy
It
was too
Adam
Daddy
Arthur
Jutta
saw
it
Adam
from the shore
far
looked
us
at
all
was too far

It was still far away
You weren't even half way there
I'm telling you.
It
He was completely surrounded
Adam
You're
Arthur
Look.
We're
Adam
Arthur
It
all
all
too far for
Daddy
should
still
far for
you Adam.
me, and
it
was
definitely
said nothing
Look. You
still
can't
How do you know
82
lie to
you
or me, even
Adam
we
friends
said nothing
was too
He
lying
Why
swim
further than Arthur,
Daddy
Your mummy saw us from the shore

We were only half way there
Jutta
that's right
Adam
she's lying
Jutta
No
I'm not.
You won't
anyone
listen to
that's
your trouble
Adam
well I'm not going to listen to you
Jutta
You'd better watch
Daddy
Do you
it.
You had
seriously think that
better watch
it
you know better than
everyone else
Adam
We
all
was
Daddy
Adam
said nothing
took a short breather. Except
still 'at it',
Anyway.
Yes it is
And
it
round
though he was
not a defeat
It's
started
all
of the
up again. After
was an
it
Adam
a what?
the third
full
above, with minor variations,
Adam's vehemence had

Jutta
Adam, who
silent
in
no way abated
optical illusion
Jutta
an optical
Adam
An
illusion
optical illusion ?
!
What
is
an
'optical illusion'?
Jutta
something
Adam
you mean
Daddy
Well. Not always. Not just like
that looks different

I
can 't believe
reservations
Adam
reservations ?
!
It
went on and on
83
my
from what
it
is
eyes ?
that.
Not without
Tuesday
October 1976
Evening
Adam
Me
Adam
Me
Adam
Me
Adam
Me
Adam
Jutta
Me
you had a wish what would it be ?

it be for a state or a thing or
anything you like
I would like to be happy - if I was happy then a
lot of things would have to be right
and what would your next wish be ?
that everyone else be happy
everyone? in the whole world?
if
can
yes.
why
not?
even against their will?

do you think there's anyone who doesn't
want to be happy?
well ok. I don't want to force anyone
to be happy. Let's say all those who want
to be happy can be happy
(pause)
Adam
daddy?
Daddy
yes
Adam
Daddy
Adam
Daddy
Adam
Daddy
Adam
Daddy
would you rather be strong or weak?

would rather be strong
would you rather be wise or stupid?
I would rather be wise
would you rather be weak and wise,
or stupid and strong?
weak and wise
and would you rather be happy and weak,
or proud and strong
happy and weak
I
84
October 1976
Natasha
Daddy
Natasha
Did you write

yes
this
they've printed
it
book?*
very well (turning the pages)
the paper. Look, there's
much on
there's not
hardly anything on that page. Or that page.
There's the
the silliest
littlest
book
ever seen.
ever seen
I've
I've
think this
is
28 October 1976
Adam
daddy?
Daddy
yes
Adam
when's my birthday?
don't you know your birthday by now?
Daddy
Adam
Daddy
Adam
Daddy
Adam
Daddy
Adam
yes but how long is it till my birthday?

how do you mean?
how many months?
don't you know the months of the year
Oh come on daddy
yet?
well this is October. Then it'll be

November, December, January, February,
March, April, May, June, July, August, September
Adam
Oh my God
Daddy
well there's no hurry
Jutta
everyone 's got a birthday before you except
Adam
Oh
Daddy
don't you
daddy
(petulantly)
know
anyway I'm
in
Adam
I'm in a hurry
Daddy
you'll
Adam
Daddy
Adam
that yet?
no hurry
for
my
next birthday
never be nine again
be
Your next birthday
I know. I can't wait
don't want to
*Do You Love Me?

85
you'll
be ten
Daddy
you should make the most
of
every day
in
your
life
Adam
Every minute
you'll never have a second over again
would you like to be young again?
would you like to be nine again?
would you like to be eighteen again?
come on answer, would you like to be
twenty-eight again?
Daddy
Adam
would
like
my
life
over again?
November
1976
daddy,
you teach
will
me
a Christmas carol, in a
smart key
Thursday
30
December
1976
Night
Adam, Natasha, and Max have just returned

from Stuttgart after a week with Opa and Omilie,
and the rest of Jutta 's family.
I came back home a few days earlier.
Now, Natasha and I are sitting snugly on the sofa,
snow and frost outside.
Jutta,
Natasha
Natasha
were you smoking your pipe ?
Daddy
no
Natasha
were you studying?
Daddy
no
Natasha
Daddy
Natasha
were you just sitting down ?

was just sitting down
Oh, at last I know what you were doing when we
rang the bell

Natasha
And was waiting for you to ring

did you know we were coming?
Daddy
Natasha
but did you
Daddy
it was just
was looking at my watch
and it was just twenty past seven so I thought I
would just sit down and wait for the doorbell to
Daddy
the bell
was expecting you
well
when
know we were coming?

got back from Stuttgart
twenty past seven, so
ring
Natasha
Daddy
and did you know it was going to ring

I thought it would then I heard your voices, and
then I knew it would, and it did. Just at twentyfive minutes past seven
A hug
January 1977
Evening
Natasha
in
my
study
(comes in offers me some bubble gum)

can blow a bubble with this bubble gum
:
(pause) (reluctantly)
afternoon (she
Daddy
Natasha
Daddy
Natasha
is
did
it
for the first time this
not getting on very well at
now) Can you blow bubble gum?

(has a go unsuccessful) no
yes you can. Adam can blow big ones.
well there you are that's something he
can do I can't do
you can't blow bubble gum (incredulously)
:
87
it
Daddy
was your age I wasn't allowed bubble

I never got the practice (evidently this is
not a sufficient excuse) and when I grew up I
never felt in the mood
and you're the oldest, and you can't
blow bubble gum
well maybe I could if I tried, but I've never put
my mind to it
(wandering off, shaking her head) and you're
the oldest and you can't blow bubble gum
when
gum
Natasha
Daddy
Natasha
Jutta,
so
Adam, Natasha, and
saw the
New
Year
in together,
over a bottle of champagne

Adam became engrossed with how the cork could have been
gotten into the bottle
'Keep
that cork,
want
to
study
it'
February 1977
Natasha has been playing a Haydn Air and a melody, on the
piano.
She had the idea of playing them together

I
told her she
had discovered counterpoint
But she wasn't interested
88
28 February 1977
It's
the
end
of another late night
Western
The goodie and the baddie stand facing each

other for what can only be the
They draw
The badman begins to fall
His eyes turn up. He has a
last
final
time
glimpse of the
sun
Natasha
He
said 'Do
He
dies
March
You Love Me?'
1977
taken aback by coming upon Adam

making grandiose magical passes with a stick
our ailing palm tree in the hall
Jutta is
Jutta
Adam
Can I believe my eyes?

Can I believe my eyes?
No
Later
Jutta
couldn't believe
89
my
ears
at
About the Author

R. D.
Laing studied medicine
he also
later taught.
at
He served
the University of Glasgow,
as a psychiatrist
in
where
army
the British
Glasgow Royal Mental Hospital, before joinHe was later appointed director of the
Langham Clinic in London From 1961 to 1967, he undertook
research into families, and he is now in private practice as a
and a physician
at
the
ing the Tavistock Clinic.
psychoanalyst.
Since
1964,
Dr.
Laing has been president of the Philadelphia
is mainly concerned with

up households as places of sanctuary, asylum, refuge, and
dwelling, where people may live without receiving any treatment
they do not want.
Dr. Laing is the author of numerous articles and reviews. His
other books are The Divided Self, Self and Others, Reason and Vio-
Association in London. This organization
setting
lence (with David Cooper), Sanity, Madness and the Family,
Vol.
1:
The Families of Schizophrenics (with Aaron Esterson), Interpersonal Perception: A Theory and a Method of Research (with H Phillipson and A. R. Lee), The Politics of Experience. The Politics of the
Family, Knots, The Facts of Life. Do You Love Me?. Sonnets, and The
Voice of Experience.
Books by R.D. Laing

Available in Paperback
The
Politics of Experience
profound book, Laing attacks accepted assumptions about
In this
the nature of "normality" with a challenging view of the mental sick-
ness
built into
our society.
"No one who reads
it
will
remain unaffected."
Rollo May, Saturday Review

Pantheon 0-394-71475-X
The Voice of Experience

Laing explores the nature of experience and the individual's ability
to feel,
arguing
at
the
same time
against the controlling of that
experience.
"Here
or
is
for anyone who thinks seriously about,

any of the sciences or healing arts."
challenging reading
works
in,
Library Journal
Pantheon 0-394-71476-8
Sonnets
This collection of sonnets covers the emotional spectrum from hate
to love,
through the loss of
illusions,
the quest for the spiritual,
and
the trauma of approaching death.
"With ingenuity and economy, Laing compresses the
many
of personal relations into the strict confines of the sonnet."
Booklist
Pantheon 0-394-73929-9
tangles
Knots
This series of dialogue-scenarios can be read as
poems
or brief
plays describing the "knots" and impasses in various kinds of
human
relationships.
"In his earlier
work Laing guided the reader
Knots he compels him
to
understanding. In
experience."
to
James Gordon, New York Times Book Review

Vintage 0-394-71776-7
The
Laing concludes
ous
when
"Laing's
it
Politics of the
that the
works and
most central of units, the
hell
work has shaken
Family
when
just
it
family, is
marvel-
dpesn't.
about everyone and everything
it
has
touched."
Marshall Berman, New York Times

Vintage 0-394-71809-7
Reason and Violence:
A Decade of Satre's Philosophy: 1950-1960

R. D.
Laing and
D G Cooper
"A very clear, very faithful account of
my
thought."
Jean- Paul Sartre

Pantheon 0-394-71582-9
The Facts of Life

This startlingly original inquiry into the nature of human feelings
probes the effects of still-unknown past experiences on our lives
and thoughts.
"A real contribution to the literature of
suggestive, inconclusive, and
humane
wonder rich,
"
Kirkus Reviews
Pantheon 0-394-71474-1
disorderly,
Pantheon Paperbacks
of Related Interest
R. D. Laing:
The Philosophy and

Psychotherapy
Andrew
An
Politics of
Collier
and an extremely helpful

book focuses on Laing's writings in
to the three theoreticr.l traditions from which his work
Marxism, psychoanalysis, and existentialism.
original critique of Laing's thought
introduction to his work, this

relation
stems
0-394-73353-3
A Complete Guide to Therapy: Prom

Pyschoanalysis to Behavior Modification
JoelKovel, M.D.
An objective guide through
the therapeutic maze.
can be recommended to everyone

can think of no other
guide for which one can make a remotely similar claim."
"It
Christopher Lehmann-Haupt, New York Times

0-394-73336-3
The Age of Desire: Case Histories of a Radical

Psychoanalyst
Joel Kovel,
Integrating Freudian
and Marxist
M.D.
tenets, this
book protests
vigor-
ously against the "unbearable alienation of capitalist society" that
reinforces and perpetuates the individual's sense of personal

isolation.
0-394-71479-2
The
Critical Psychiatry:
Politics of
Mental Health
David Ingleby, editor

Theorists, psychotherapists,
quences and implications

broad survey.
and psychiatrists discuss the conse-
of the anti-psychiatry of the 1960s in this
0-394-83560-9
Interaction Ritual: Essays in Face-to-Face Behavior

Erving Goffman
and best professionally known sociologist of our

us what happens when people meet face to face
and why, astonishing us with the complexity of even our most routine meetings with others.
The most
time,
cited
Goffman
tells
0-394-70631-5
Human Sexual Relations: Towards a Redefinition of

Sexual Politics
Mike Brake,
editor
This book brings together the major writers and perspectives on

sexuality in the twentieth century in a
comprehensive collection
of
essential readings.
0-394-71109-2
Social
Causes of Illness
Richard Totman
In this
audacious and yet profoundly sensible book, clinical psy-
chologist
Totman argues
that
many emotional and
nesses result from the individual's inability

maintain the social patterns he sets
to
physical
ill-
achieve the goals and
for himself.
0-394-74805-0
The IQ Controversy
N.
Block and Gerald Dworkin, editors
This collection of writing from Chomsky, Kamin, Herrnstein, and

others points up the political, rather than scientific, content of the
controversy over IQ.

0-394-73087-9
The Innocence
of Dreams
Charles Rycroft,
M.D
that dreams are an extennumerous examples of dreams he has
Taking issue with Freud, Rycroft argues

sion of the imagination, citing
worked with
to
support his thesis

0-394-73990-6
Families in Pain
Phyllis
Vine and
Christian Beels, M.D., M.S.
Written by and for the relatives of the mentally
sourcebook
procedures
providing
for
lists
commitment
of drugs
in all fifty
sionate account of the lives of families
ill,
this
important
and current information on

states as well as a compas-
in pain.
0-394-71418-0
Freud
for
Beginners
Richard Appignanesi
This documentary comic book leads the reader through the
work, and theories of the father of modern psychoanalysis.

0-394-73800-4
life,
R.
D.
conversations with his two
Laing's
younger children over a period of six years

"carry on in the tradition of Knots and will undoubtedly appeal" [Publishers Weekly). They
have resulted in a marvelous collection of the
"knots" of childhood and an intimate look at
the
way
children's thoughts
develop. Conversations
instructive
is
and
personalities
a funny, tender, and
book about children how they
grow, what they think, and
how they cope with
the universal problems of childhood.
A long
in-
troduction traces the evolution of a child's
thoughts over the years, showing
how
the au-
thor copes with different concepts and
how
family relationships develop.
"Unembellished and printed without explanatory or connective text, they include loving ex-
changes, exploratory dialogues, parent-child

struggles, not-so-simple requests, diverting
and a good proportion
questions,
of Oedipal
treasures."
Kirkus Reviews
"Light-hearted,
full
of mental twists
Publishers
and turns."
Weekly
Cover photograph by Jerry Bauer

Cover design by Louise Fili
Pantheon Books,
New York

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CONVERSATIONS

reserved under International and Pan-American

Copyright Conventions. Published

the United States

Pantheon Books, a division of Random House,

Canada by Random House

Toronto. Hardcover edition published

Laing, Ronald David

Child Psychology Case studies.

originally cataloged this

Library of Congress Cataloging

the United States of

The conversations in this anthology were written down by me

twenty-four hours of occurring.

them was structured or

are without exception part of the flux of uncontrived hap-

occur in the course of

are in the habit of seeing

everything; our intellectual, spiritual

and physical bves, as well as our emotional and social. And

Those who have studied painful interactions

the experts in this division of hell in

However, the other side of the story has not

counterpoint, in visual terms, in the interlace.

therefore a great pleasure and relief for

present these dialogues which express so

hearted and serious delight not

that they are not sometimes

like as they are liked.

not to introduce their conversations with a theoretical essay

on them, nor to footnote them in the many places where I

Such theoretical considerations raised by them in many

almost entirely taken up with the voices of

may be read as much by children as by

be vead as readily by anyone as by adult

as useful for adults to

touch with adults.

learn about children, only from children.

much from the

touch with childhood. Adults can suffer as

suspect that children play as important a part in adult 'growth

and development' as we adults do in theirs. I don't spend

Indeed, such was the richness of their earlier

epoch, before the onslaught of language

was tinged with sadness and

their clothes several times.

Some of these conversations have struck some

responsible for deletions and,

suppose, inevitably, some inadvertent omissions. But I have

are intimacies within family

enough to believe are unseemly to reveal publicly. Indeed I

and the children.

have not spent

their lives having conversations with

have you a long pole?

but the sun. I'm fond of the sun

I haven't got a ladder to reach the sun

(on hearing of fighting, shooting

Kandy, 14 miles away) I want to go to Kandy

for breakfast with a big steel

because I want to shoot a lot of people and kill

how do you know?

but did you