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Startedby pradeep4 u,Dec06 2 01 51 0:3 3 PM
turbulenceandretentiontim e,

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Post ed0 6 Dec em ber 2 0 1 5 1 0 :3 3 PM

pradeep4u
Hello!Ihavedoubtontwotopics

1)Turbulenceorretentiontimeoffluidswhichaffectheattransfermore.

2)whydoincreasingvelocityofcoldfluidintubesnotincreaseheattransferratherdecreaseitwhereassameisopposite
whenweincreasevelocityofhotfluid?

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Post ed0 7 Dec em ber 2 0 1 5 0 9 :2 7 A M

S.AHMAD
Dearsir,couldyoupleaseattachedyourcalculationshowingitem2?

Post ed0 7 Dec em ber 2 0 1 5 0 6 :4 4 PM

shan
BasicheattransferEquation:Q=U*A*LMTD

Asdemonstratedintheequationabove,neitherturbulenceorretentiontimeisdirectlyinvolvedintheheattransfer
calculation.

However,turbulence(ReynoldsNumber)istheimportantfactorforthefilmcoefficientandfilmresistance,whichare
includedintheequationofoverallheattransfercoefficientU.

Retentiontimeisreflectedbythelengthofaheatexchangershellandtubes,whichis,interm,oneofdeterminefactortothe
heattransferareaA.

Youhavetodefinethefluidflowregimevariationlimitandtheretentiontimechangerangetodiscusswhichvariablehas
moreimpacttotheamountofheattransferred.

Post ed0 7 Dec em ber 2 0 1 5 0 7 :1 0 PM

pradeep4u

S.AHMAD,on07Dec201512:07PM,said:
Dearsir,couldy oupleaseattachedy ourcalculationshowingitem 2 ?

NosirIdonothavecalculationbutIpracticallyexperiencedinoilcoolerswhenweincreasedflowofhotoilthenoil
temperaturedecreasedbutwhenweincreasecoldwaterflowratethenweexperiencedtemperturenotdecreasedinfact
Deltatemperaturebetweenhotoiltemperatureandcoldoiltemperaturedecreased.

Post ed0 7 Dec em ber 2 0 1 5 0 7 :1 5 PM

pradeep4u

shan,on07Dec20159:24PM,said:
BasicheattransferEquation:Q= U*A*LMTD

Asdem onstratedintheequationabov e,neitherturbulenceorretentiontim eisdirectly inv olv edintheheattransfercalculation.

Howev er,turbulence(Rey noldsNum ber)istheim portantfactorforthefilm coefficientandfilm resistance,whichareincludedin

theequationofov erallheattransfercoefficientU.

Retentiontim eisreflectedby thelengthofaheatexchangershellandtubes,whichis,interm ,oneofdeterm inefactortotheheat

transferareaA.

Youhav etodefinethefluidflowregim ev ariationlim itandtheretentiontim echangerangetodiscusswhichv ariablehasm ore

im pacttotheam ountofheattransferred.

Sirareutalkingaboutlaminarandturbulentflows.RetentiontimeIunderstandisTimethefluidspendsinheatexchangers.
AmIwrong.PlzcorrectmeifIamwrong.Fasterfluidflowspendslessertimeinheatexchangersohaslessretentiontime
whileslowerfluidflowspendsmoretimeinheatexchangersSoIthinkhasmoreretentiontime.

Post ed0 7 Dec em ber 2 0 1 5 0 7 :4 1 PM

shan

RetentiontimeisNOTavariabletodeterminedtheheattransferratebasedonbasicheatertransferequation
Q=U*A*LMTD.

Thismeansthatevenifthefluidstaysattheidenticalretentiontimeinaheatexchangerwithdifferentheattransferareas,

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suchasonesinglelargediametertubevs.multiplesmalldiametertubeswiththesametubelengthandoverallvelocity,the
heattransferratesaredifferent.

Actually,aheatexchangewilltransmoreheatforafasterflowfluidthanslowerflowfluidbecauseofbetterUvalue.Faster
flowfluidmayhavelesstemperaturechangethroughtheheatexchangerbutmorevolumepassesthroughtheheat
exchanger.OverallexchangerQislarger.

Asanotherexample,whenthecoldsidetemperaturereachesthesametemperatureasthehotside(LMTD=0)or
temperaturecrossingoccursinsideheatexchanger,nomatterhowlongtheretentiontimeis,thereisnoheattransferatall.

Inthecaseyoudisagreemypointofview,pleasepresentyourheattransferequationwithretentiontimeasavariable.

Edit edby shan,07 December201509:04PM.

Post ed0 8 Dec em ber 2 0 1 5 0 7 :5 0 A M

S.AHMAD

pradeep4u,on07Dec20159:50PM,said:

S.AHMAD,on07Dec201512:07PM,said:
Dearsir,couldy oupleaseattachedy ourcalculationshowingitem 2 ?
NosirIdonothav ecalculationbutIpractically experiencedinoilcoolerswhenweincreasedflowofhotoilthenoiltem perature
decreasedbutwhenweincreasecoldwaterflowratethenweexperiencedtem perturenotdecreasedinfactDeltatem perature
betweenhotoiltem peratureandcoldoiltem peraturedecreased.

Itisgoodideaifyoucandosomecalculationbasedontheplantdata.Whenthehotstreamflowrateisincreased,intheory
theoutlettemperatureofbothstreamshallincreasethisisexplainedintheheattransfercorrelation.
Forthehotstream:
Qh=WCp(T1T2)
Forthecoldstream
Qc=wcp(t1t2).
Qh=Qc
andalsotheequationQ=UALMTD

thethreebasicequationmustbesatisfiedthatis
Q=Qh=Qc

Inthecalculationyoumustdeterminetheoutlettemperaturethatsatisfythethreebasicheattransferequation.UseEXCEL
SOLVERaddintosolveforT2andt2.Alternative,givemetheplantdata,Icandoitforyou,hahabutnotfoc....howeverfor
thesakeofeducationtootherembersIamhappytodoitfoc

S.Ahmad

Post ed0 8 Dec em ber 2 0 1 5 0 8 :0 8 A M

S.AHMAD
Iamsorry....thecoldstreameuationshouldbe:

Qc=wcp(t2t1)..sincet2isgreaterthant1....

Post edY est er da y , 0 4 :0 0 PM

LucianGomoescu
Helloeveryone,
Ihavesomeobservations:

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@Shan:
Temperaturecrossingmeansthatcoldfluidtemperatureatapositionxcfromthecoldinletgetshigherthanhotfluid
temperatureatapossitionxhfromhotinlet.Yes,HIGHER,whichisthermodinamicallypossiblebecausethese
temperaturesARENOT AT T HESAMEPOINT INSPACE.So,atemperaturecrossingdoesn'tmean
LMT D=0,itonlydiminishesMT Dincaseofanon100%countercurrentHX.
@pradeep4u:
1.Regardingthepracticaltwocasesthatyoudescribed,ithinkthatyoutoldonlyhalfofthestory.
CaseA:Hotoilflow++==>HotoilTout
CaseB:Coldwaterflow++==>(HotoilTinHotoilTout)
Somedetailsaremissing.
CaseA:
ThecoldwaterTin/outandflowrateareasincaseBbeforeflowincrement?
Ifyes,thanapossibleexplanationisthefollowing:thehtconoilsideis<<thehtconwatersideand,whentheflowratewas
increased,theoverallhtcincreasedatsuchavaluethatovercomedthesmallerretentiontimeofoilinhotspace.

Butstillthisisacurioussituationtomebecause,ingeneral,theflowrateincrementdeterminesahigheroutlet
temperatureforthehotfluid(htc~velocity^n,wheren<1assumingforcedconvection,whiletheheatcapacityrate
increaseswithvelocity^n=1).
CaseB:
Didyoumeanthat(HotoilTinHotoilTout)decreasescomparedtoitsvalueincaseAoritsvaluebeforewaterflowrate
increment?
IffirstoptionistheoneyoumeantthenitmayhavethesameexplanationasforcaseA(thewaterhtcincrementhasaminor
effectonohtc,alsotheeffectonMTDmaybeverysmallbecausewaterToutTin<<oilTinTout,ionlysupposeit.
Ifsecondoptionistheoneyoumeantthanireallydon'thaveanexplanationatall.
2.Iunderstandyourpointregardingtheantagoniceffectofflowrateonretentiontimeoffluidanditsfilmhtc.Inalmostall
cases,theretentiontimeeffectonfluidoutlettemperature(keepingtheotherspaceconditionsunchanged)
prevails.Inotherwords,afluidflowrateincrementdeterminesafluid|T inT out|decrease,inmostof
thesituations.

3.Aboveihavenottalkedatallaboutheattransferincreasing/decreasing(understoodasHXduty),butabout
fluidTinToutwhichwastheonlyonementionedinthepracticalcases.

4.IfwetalkaboutflowrateincrementeffectonHXdutythenithasonlypositiveeffectsonit(higher
filmhtc,higherMT D).
Lucian

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