A CRITIQUE OF:=

Time & Place by Haitham Hamdan

By AHLUSSUNNAH WAL JAMAAH

There is a debate among some Muslims about time and space.

ALL-H is beyond time and space.
It is attributed to some Salafies that Time and Space are Uncreated and Deity is in
some space or in some time or in both.
This is a question where Salafies [Minoraties Of Ahlussunnah] and Majority Of
Ahlussunnah appear to diifer.
But not all Salafies believe that Time and Space are Uncreated.
First. All things[Existents] canbe divided into only two types of things. 1] Uncreated
eg Deity, Attributes Of Deity eg Omniscience Of Deity[ALL-H],Quran Of Deity [ALL-H]
etc.
2] Created things eg World, Humans, etc.
The Middle is excluded and it is impossible for a thing [Existent] to be neither
Created nor Uncreated.
So what so ever Time and Space are, whether they are Defined terms or Undefined
terms they are either Creation Of All-h or Not Creations Of All-h. [If they are
supposed to be Existents and NOT Non-Existents]
If they are Creations Of All-ah then It is Per Se Absurd for ALL-H to be in any one of
them or in both of them. Since ALL-H CANNOT BE IN HIS CREATIONS. [An Axiom Of
all Ahlussunah ,whether majority or minority]
This is a Sunni Axiom which even doeth not require any proof [and is independent of
Proof as according to author] .
But if any one of the two or both of them are Uncreated then there are only the
following possibilities as according to Ahlussunnah sect Of Isla:m :1] Time is ALL-H and Space is ALL-H.
2]Time is ALL-H and Space is an Attribute Of ALL-H like Quran or Divine
Omniscience.

3] Space is ALL-H and Time is an Attribute Of ALL-H like Quran or Divine

Omniscience.
4] Space is Not ALL-H ,Time is Not ALL-H; both of them are Attributes Of ALL-H like
Quran or Divine Omniscience.
There is no other logical possibility as according to the believes of Ahlussunnah.
SO if Time or Space are Uncreated then:Either both of them are ALL-H or any one of them is ALL-H and the other is a Divine
Uncreated Attribute or both of them are Divine Uncreated Attributes.
One cannot escape from them and cannot suggest an other option .
But if time is Neither ALL-H nor Any One Of His Attributes then time is either Non
Existent or a Creation.
Similarly the same is for Space.
Different people has attempted to define Time and Space Diiferently. For example:=
In case of Time different definitions are given:=
1] Time is the Measure of Change.
2] Time is the occurrence of [Created] Events.
More Clearly Time is a relation between any two [Created] events in the series of
Events.
3] Time is the series of [Created] Events.
4] Time is a relation between any two beginnings of things in [Created] things.
5] Time is a relation between a thin and the changes of the thing.
6] Time is a relation between the Space and a thing in Space.
7]Time is a relation of priority and posteriorty /Anteriority of [Created] Event.
A number of definitions may also exist. But what so ever the definition is chosen it
must satisfy the following conditions.
1] Time is Not ALL-H.
If time is ALL-H then Past ,Present and Future are nothing but Hypostases or Axes Of
ALL-H anf this is Impossible. This also implieth that One that is In Time is In ALL-H.
This contradicteth the Divine Beyondness. If it is correct them why Jahmites and

Some Hindus are blamed who believe that Each and Every Thing Exist in Deity
[ Naudhu Billah].
2] Time is Not an Attribute Of ALL-H.
If time is an Attribute Of ALL-H then time is Uncreated. But this means that time is
claimed to be an Attribute Of ALL-H not on the Basis of Quran and Sahih Ahadis
but on the basis of reasoning.
If some one has right to claim so then Ahlul Vujud have an equal right to claim that
the entire world is an Attribute Of ALL-H. This shall go to the belief of Unity Of
Existent.
Also if time is an Uncreated Divine Attribute of ALL-H then nothing can Exist in time
since:
1] If the thing is a Creation then no Creation can Exist in Uncreated Divine Attribute.
2] If the thing is Uncreated then It is either ALL-H Himself or any one of His
Uncreated Attribute.
But Deity Doeth not Exist in His Attributes, in any one of His Attributes . An
assertion not made by Any Sunni Scholar.
So the thing cannot be ALL-H.
If the thing is NOT ALL-H then the thing can only be His Attribute. In this case An
Attribute of Deity Existeth in an other Attribute. Again a suggestion not found in the
Text of Quran or Hadis or in the authentic works of Sunnis whether they be Ashari or
Maturidi or Salafi or Hanabalah etc.
It depends upon the word time ,how one defines it.
If some one define as a Divine Attribute say AL YADD OR AL QURA:N then it is
Uncreated. If Some one defines it as ALL-H then it is Uncreated [ Since ALL-H is
Uncreated and Eternal].
If some one defines it as one of the Creation of Deity then it is Created.
But to use the term for Uncreated ALL-H or any one of His Uncreated Attributes is
incorrect. It is just like to use the word Jism [Body] for ALL-H or Jauhar [Substance]
for ALL-H. Since they are not used in Quran and H:adis. Similarly these words
cannot be used for Any One of His Attributes on the same reasoning.
A STUDY OF SOME ALLEGED PARADOXES.

1] Allah Cannot exist before creation, because "before"

is a word for time, and time is creation. Similarly Allah

Cannot Exist before time since the word before is a word

of time itself. So it appears a self contradicting idea.

The word "before" is a word of "temporality". If no time existed, then how could there be a "before" it?

This objection is based on the axiom:=

The word "before" is a word of "temporality". If no time existed, then there could not be a "before
than any thing. ?
The problem is embedded in the definition of the term Time. One may define the term time as he likes
it. But the question is can this definition correctly be applied to the time we know or not.
Any how this depends on the definition of the term Time.
1]If some one define time as follow:

Time is the measurement in relation between two events.

In this definition the concept of Priority is not used. Supposing that Deity [SVT & AZZA VA
JALLA]is an Event [ Naudhubillah] time is some thing which is even the measurement of
ALL-H.
But believing that Deity is Eternal ,Uncreated, Unmade and Un- originated, is beyond and
transcendent to the measurement. One may term this Beyondness and transcendence as
Divine Priority.
So there is no confusion in this Divine Priority.
2] If some one definines times as:
A relation between two [ Created] Events
then if it is assumed that Deity is an Event stated above then Deity cannot be beyond time.
On the contrary if Deity is believed not to be an Event then Deity is Beyond Time i.e Not In
time.
This beyondness may be considered as Divine Priority.
A DETAIL DISCUSSION:
The problem on the Divine Priority to time in particular and Creations in general [assuming
that time is a creation] is due to the reason that the concepts of Priority and Posteriority are
supposed to be less fundamental then time. But if Posteriority and Priority are supposed to
be more fundamental then the concept of Time the entire paradox is annihilated .
Let it be noted that there is a Relation between Uncreated Beginingless Deity and a Thing
Created with beginning.

If this relation is defined as Priority i.e the relation between Uncreated Beginningless Deity
and a Creation With a Beginning then this relation is not a relation of time.
Either this relation is eternal or temporal [Not Eternal] it is not time .
Now one can safely define time.
It may be a measurement or a relation of Creations or Temporal Events what so ever, this
relation stated above cannot be called time.
So a posteriority or priority of Created events is diffferent from the stated above relation.
So based on this definition Deity canbe said to be Prior to Creations in general and Time in
Particular. Similarly if time is defined as an Interval between two [Created]events there is no
logical problem.
How ever there is an other problem. If Priority is just a relation between beginning and Non
Beginning [Beginninglessness] then what can be said about the very relation itself.
If there is no relation between the Uncreated Beginningless Deity and the said relation then
Deity may be said Prior to it in some other suggested meaning. But such a question may be
used for any to prior and posterior objects in time. So this cannot be a problem.
Always remember the Axiom Uncreated Beginningless Existent is Prior to Created
Beginningful Existent. The Denial of Beginning is a Self Priority.
So if Deity is assumed to be Prior to any Created thing say time or else there is no problem
implied as a paradox.
CLAIM OF UNCREATEDNESS OF TIME.
UNCREATED OF TIME IS NOT LIKE THE UNCREATEDNESS OF QURA:N OR DIVINE
OMNISCIENCE ETC.

The Place/Space (Makaan) of something is merely a concept that exists in our minds; there is
nothing outside the mind that is a Place (Makaan).
A Place (Makaan) is a concept that we associate with things that exist outside the mind. It is a way for us to relate the existence of an object to the
existence of other objects in this universe. It is not that Allah created a Place (Makaan) for us, and then put us into this place.
Therefore, it is ridiculous to ask, how can Allah assume a Place (Makaan) when a Place (Makaan) is from the creation of Allah? A Place (Makaan) is not
something that you assume, it is a concept that results from your existence. A relationship between you and the universe.

This is reported from Haisam. But there are still some flaws in the argument and in the
definition.
1] On what authority Haisam stateth this definition. One may disagree with him on the
definition.
If this definition is not reported in Sah:ih: H:adi:s one may differ from Haisam on the
definition.
2] If Maca:n/Maka:n is a Concept which Existeth in minds, then at most it means that
MACA:N is just a supposition . But if the mind in which it existeth is a Creation of ALL-H, the
supposition or the concept which existeth in the created mind is also a Creation Of ALL-H,
and cannot be Uncreated like Qura:n or Divine Omniscience or ALL-H HimSelf.

3]If the concept is Per Se Subsistent [Qa:im Bi Nafsihi:] and Uncreated then It is nothing But
ALL-H, [Naudhu Billa:hi Min Dha:lic]. Since Divine Attributes are Uncreated but not Per Se
Subsistent.
To Assume that this concept is Eternal , Per Se Subsistent yet in the Very Self/Essence Of
ALL-H is just to believe it to be A Hypostasis in Divine Self /Essence Of ALL-H [AZZA VA
JALLA]. Islam doeth not believe in Divine Hypostasis rather rejecteth it certainly.
4] If it is Per Se Subsistent and Uncreated then no Human or Jin or Angelic being can
associate it ti things since it is in this supposed case is beyond not only from the powers of
Created Existents [Supposita] but also Beyond the Omniscience Of ALL-H since ALL-H Doeth
not have Omnipotence to Annhilate Himself.
The concept would be like Him. This is a shirc.
4] If the Concept of Space is in Divine Knowledge then it is just an Attribute Of ALL-H at best
a Subsidiary Attribute, yet still Uncreated and Eternal other wise Absolute Ignorence or
Eternal Ignorence or both is Implied.
But in this case it is just to suggest a new Attribute for ALL-H, not stated In Qura:n and
S:ah:i:h: Ah:di:s
And this is not allowed in Isla:m particularly in Ahlussunnah.
5] It is nowhere stated that Maca:n is a Divine Attribute , so to suggest an Uncreated
Attribute for ALL-H is incorrect and wrong. It is just like to suggest Ears,Noses,Left
Hands,Jaws for ALL-H making analogies from Divine Eyes,or Divine Face etc.
[NAUDHUBALLAH MIN DHALIC].
6] If Mac:n is a conept of Created Minds then it is possible that Deity becometh Spaceless if
all of them are annihilated [such that there is no Rational mind in the Universe].
7] If the Maca:n is the concept in Divine Knowledge then Deitys Maca:n is Eternal.It is not
that Deity Acquireth ABOVENESS at some time in past.
HAISAM further saith:=
The Place (Makaan) of something cannot exist in our minds if that something did not exist. At the same time, we cannot perceive of
something existing outside out minds and it not having a place. If it is to relate to other beings then it must have a place, it makes
no sense saying Allah exists without a place. It will result in making Allah into a mere mental being that has no existence outside the
mind.

Claim of HAISAM that we cannot perceive out side mind with out associating a space for it is
incorrect.
Haisam requires a proof for this strange claim. It is possible that he was unable to do so but
a lot of other are able to do so. So this claim is incorrect as well as proof less.
ALL-H cannot be reduced to mental Concept [like Maca:n] just by denying space for Him.
This claim is once again incorrect and wrong.
Haisam saith:
Time (Waqt) is not something that exists outside the human mind, it is associated with actions. If there is no action there will be no Time (Waqt), it
(Time) cannot exist without actions occurring.

A RESPONSE:=

So Acts/Actions are the necessary conditions for the existence of time. This also
sheweth that time is not associated [mentally?] with Attributes and Essences.

Now the question is whose actions/acts? Acts of Created

Supposita [Existents] or Deity Himself or of Divine Attributes.
An other question is that WHETHER Divine Acts are Valuntary or Involuntary. In the former
case it is in Divine Power to cease all His Acts and Annhilate time. In this case Deity can
become Timeless.
In the latter case these acts are Unceaseable even by Omnipotent Deity. If Divine Acts are immanent
then this also imply that they are Unceaseable.
But if one may ask that where only Divine Attributes are immanent or Divine acts are also immanent. Also is there
any non immanent Attribute Of Deity nounlyALL-H [AZZA VA JALLA].

So what so ever Deity is doing is with out Divine Intention/Will and ceaseth to be Fa-a:l
lamma: Yuri:d or Alfa:il Al Mukhta:r. It appeareth that according to Haisam Hamdam acts
exists externally and time exists in mind as a concept. But this concept is some how related
to acts. But a Divine Act is Neither ALL-H nor a Divine Attribute. So it can be said that this
concept in the mind of a human or an angelic or a Jin Being OR any Rational Suppositum in
general, cannot be related to ALL-H [AZZA VA JALLA] and His Uncreated Attributes. So it is
required to prove on the theological grounds of Haisam Hamdam that this concept is related
to UNCREATED ALL-H AND UNCREATED ATTRIBUTES OF ALL-H. IF THIS IS NOT PROVED THE
ENTIRE STATEMENT BECOMES WRONG AND INCORRECT. ALL-H is Beyond such relations.

Perpetual Creation ascribed to Imam Ibn Taimiah RH.