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Which raw loudspeaker manufactor,uses the best quality parts? [Archive] - Wave Music Community Board

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bull19

02-05-2003, 09:08 PM

Precision Devices,RC F,EV,Beyma,Eminence,Fane,C elestion,C erwi n Vega,Peavey,Zeuz,Bumper,Selenium,JBL,Mc Kenzie,Gauss,P.Audio,PHL.

Precision Devices have an amazing 24 inch with 1000w rms handling,6 inch voice coil.
Beyma have a a very long xmax on a certain driver 18mm x max
Eminence Kilomax 1250w rms,heatsink

frankddr

02-05-2003, 09:16 PM

keep in mind that high power handling does not neccesarily equate to higher sound pressure or good response..
You can have a 300 or 400w efficient woofer that will blow away a 1000w one in both sound levels and quality of sound. People are too hung up on
the wattage game..

clubman5

02-05-2003, 10:34 PM

JBL and Eminence use hawley cones which are considered to be the best cone manufacturer!
Others use hawley,too. You gotta decide what driver you like best in what box!
What do you want to do?
Incidentally, frank is righton, as far as power handling not really being a good guide to what sounds good! since he has already said it properly so I
wont repeat, but what he says is the truth!

pbellsound

02-06-2003, 11:12 AM

Hey Tom,
The "best" drivers are what sounds and works best for you. Give a listen to a few different brands and be the judge.
For me, the best drivers are McC auley. All 4 inch coils that're "inwound" (meaning the VC is on the inside of the VC former-as it heats up, it's
expansion makes it stronger), multiple spiders, revovable magnets (no re-coning-just bolt on a new basket assembly) and high power ratings.
They're all made in house at McC auley Sound right down to the cast baskets. Total in house control. McC auley drivers are used by BGW, EAW,
Renkus-Heinz and others, just to name a few.
Good luck!
PBell

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Which raw loudspeaker manufactor,uses the best quality parts? [Archive] - Wave Music Community Board

daveg

02-06-2003, 01:02 PM

These manufactuers have the technology to build a woofer which might handle say 3000w. They don't because the physics of moving air with a cone
is not about how just about how much heat the VC can dissapate. The heating of the Voice C oil is what they measure these ratings on. You want high
power handling, use thicker wire, bigger coil, force air cooling, ferrofluid, stiffer suspension, heavier cone, hefty VC former, inside out windings etc
etc.
Then you might have a woofer which you can run by pluging in on the mains! Won't necesarily be a good driver though!

bull19

02-06-2003, 05:52 PM

Not just the voice coil has to be big,and have many turns,and have heavy gauge wire and handle very high power.
The cone has to made from proper good quality thick paper or kelvar or polycellous.
And the voice coil former is made from something better than Kapton,because kapton can take 250 degrees c,which for a high power speaker isn't
that good.I know for a fact some Very high quality speakers which have Nomex formers that can handle 800 degrees c.
Also the magnet strength and weight and size matters,if it's a normal barium or strontium ferrite magnet.
But if it's an alnico or neodymium magnet.Because Neodymium and Alnico have stronger magnetic strength than normal barium or strontium ferrite
ceramic magnets,the rare earth types can be made small,and less weight,and still have the same as a normal ferrite magnet.
Okay raw pa speakers are; C elestion,Mc Kenzie,OHM,VOLT,ZEUZ,Bumper
Good raw pa speakers are; Fane,Eminence,Peavey,JBL,Gauss,P. Audio,Selenium,C erwin Vega
very good raw pa speakers are; PHL Audio,EV[ElectroVoice]
Extremely good raw pa speakers are; Mc C auley,Precision Devices,Beyma,RC F.
What makes a very good pa speaker is; high power handling,very high magnet strength,die cast aluninium frame,gold screw terminals,kelvar
cone,Nomex former,C arbon fibre dampener,big voice coil,with the highest quality ofc copper.And also to consider is the most natural sound,and a
speaker which doesn't distort at very high volumes,and delivers a very good deep bass.

clubman5

02-06-2003, 05:58 PM

The best drivers are in fact the ones that work properly in the box that was designed for the drivers! And of course, what sounds good to you!
For deep bass a cone with a heavier mass will produce better deep bottom. But if you are going to use a woofer to go up higher, say 800hz, then a
lightweight cone design will work better!
Again, all the drivers mentioned are good, but its what sounds right to you that counts.
P.S. TAD woofers sound excellent!

clubman5

02-06-2003, 06:45 PM

In my honest opinion, if your looking for great punch and definition in your bottom end McC auley, JBL, and TAD are the BEST ways to go!
Another woofer a freind of mine likes are the B & C woofers!
My personal favorite is the TAD-1603 with its low Fs of 28hz and 500 watt max input rating! The definition and transient snap this speaker has is
BEAUTIFUL!

daveg

02-06-2003, 07:11 PM

The design of any cone driver is a delicate balance of parameters. Some of the best drivers where designed years ago and have not been surpassed
in sound quality. JBL 2245 gets my vote. Didn't they use to use these in pro designs? Only rated at 300 watts.
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Which raw loudspeaker manufactor,uses the best quality parts? [Archive] - Wave Music Community Board

All well and good with a PD 24 but how much power do these need to get going?
I'd rather have a 100 driver in the perfect design of box than 400 one in a generic misaligned enclousure. And that 100 driver might not need a
big crown or crest 3000 amp!
I've got many of these JBL 22XX drivers. One of the breed of newer design high power drivers (600watts aes)and they aren't that big a deal. Many
of those other drivers you list will be those manufactuers answer to the newer JBL way of doing things. All of them will be as good or bad depending
on your views on loudspeaker design. If you look at the parameters for these drivers some will be optimised for different enclosure designs. More of
every parameter does not make a better driver it is the way these parameters interact in your box design. So a very high BL woofer might
overexcurt in a front loaded design etc.
TAD seems to still be doing it the old way. Some others still do drivers with similiar Thiele Small. Look at me I'm writing a book!
Far better to read and understand the LOUDSPEAKER DESIGN C OOKBOOK by Vance Dickerson.
Also Rog Mogale says all of this better than me on his site. I'd like to hear some of his designs with PD drivers. Get building Tom! PD 1850 horn can't
be bad!
Far better to read and understand the LOUDSPEAKER DESIGN C OOKBOOK by Vance Dickerson.
I've heard many boxes but as for which driver is best I still cannot answer. Still gives me something to write whilst I monitor E-bay!

daveg

02-06-2003, 07:21 PM

What makes a very good pa speaker is; high power handling,very high magnet strength,die cast aluninium frame,gold screw terminals,kelvar
cone,Nomex former,C arbon fibre dampener,big voice coil,with the highest quality ofc copper.
Thats not a good speaker above,thats marketing hype to get one over on the opposition!
The heavier the cone the lower the efficiency for a given BL and QTS? And I am out of my depth here!
C arbon Fibre dampener? Thats new!
Steel basket,light weight paper cone,tiny magnet still sounds awesome. Any woofers like that still?

daveg

02-06-2003, 07:31 PM

JBL because I bleed orange on these matters. Alluminium Handwound edgewound voice coils on very flimsy looking formers. The motor design is the
quality I am primarly looking at. As Scott says the cones are also good. There is a lot more to a cone than you might first think. Pull a old one apart
and you will see the multiple layers and thickness.
I consider these to be the best quality.
Let me pull apart some TADS to have a peek and I might graduate towards these!

clubman5

02-06-2003, 07:56 PM

See, you know alot! My favorite driver in my Scoops is the JBL 2240! No if,s and or buts about it! Too bad JBL has moved away from the classic JBL
sound that made them so famous.
As I said before, the best drivers are the ones that a given box was designed for! So, you hear something and say, Yeah I like that! Then thats what
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you get!
For front horn loading, we already know Im an Altec 421 freak! Nothing outvoices my Voice of the Theatre,s! NOTHING!
TAD. Think of your favorite JBL 15 and give it an even BETTER bottom end. So clean, and so clear. In the right type of box TAD walks on
EVERYTHING currently in manufacture! The reason you no longer see alot of TAD is because they are EXPENSIVE, not as bulletproof as some other
brands of drivers, and require fairly large boxes to work properly! TAD is a durable speaker, but they dont trade off sound quality for durability. A
JBL 2226 WILL take more abuse, but will not sound better than the TAD.
Ill tell you guys something I feel about todays trends in audio. Small boxes! small boxes produce small sound! No matter how much power they can
take, they dont produce that BIG, REALISTIC big box sound!
And lastly, unless your buying a cabinet from someone who really knows what they are doing, there are so many cabinets out there whose tuning is
way off!
We got one guy here in NY/Penn who makes a frontloaded horn that he swears will go down if you put a TAD in it, yet when his box was measured
with a scope it fell off at 125hz straight down like the side of a steep cliff. major manufacturers cabinets dont look sometimes like theres much going
on, but your paying for engineering. Engineering that some homemade boxes could have benefitted from.

clubman5

02-06-2003, 08:06 PM

many top line manufacturers use cones from a company called Hawley C ones! These are and always were considered to be the best cones out
there. JBL uses them. Altec used them. gauss used them. Eminence uses them. they even make cones for manufacturers of high end speakers!
Meyersound has special drivers made just for them by JBL! Yes, JBL! So you see Hawley C ones are in fact in the things that many consider to be the
best. Westlake Audio has drivers made only for them by JBL as well. TAD also makes drivers for westlake.
cone composition has a profound effect on the speakers sound! It aint just paper. theres serious engineering in those simple cone shaped pieces of
paper.

bull19

02-07-2003, 08:51 PM

Yep,composite cones sometimes are just a thick paper cone,with polycellous strands [ring reinforcement] or simply corrgated paper.Eminence Delta
15 has these corragations in the middle of the cone,traveling to the centre.
But the best driver is one that can take much abuse and sound fantastic too.
An Example of this is the Eminence Kilomax 18
1. very long x-max 9.5mm
2. 4 inch high temperature[polyamide-amide coated] voice coil on kapton former
3. 109 0z barium ferrite magnet
4. heatsink
5. many vents on the magnet,including normal pole vent
6. heavy duty cone and surround
7. gold screw terminals
8. double fiberglass dampener
9. X mech of 65mm
10. frequency responce 20hz-1khz
11. die cast aluninium frame
My favourite drivers are Eminence,Fane,JBL for good power handling and resonable quality.
RC F precision and EV for very good quality sound,and very good power handling.
Precision Devices,Beyma, for extreme hard hitting deep bass,and excellent power handling.Especially the PD 184
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My favourite sounding cabinet is either the long throw folded horn or j-bin,and for good thump in the chest scoop bass bins,or w bins.But I also realy
like the TurboSound [Blue horn bins] the folded horns with a reflex chamber that use either a 21 inch or 24 inch driver.

clubman5

02-08-2003, 01:48 PM

Eminence makes a kick ass driver! But although the Kilomax has the GIGANTIC XMAX and power handling it is designed for ported boxes! So, since
I use folded horns its of no use to me! However, the Sigma Pro-18 and Omega pro-18 DO work properly in horns and are my fav for folded horn
use.
Unfortunately, in speaker design there is NO FREE LUNC H!! This means that in order to make a driver that takes TONS of abuse they usually have to
trade off some sonic quality! Its inevitable, because exactly the things that make a driver bulletproof are exactly what will change its sonic character!
Heavier gauge coils means higher power handling, but usually have more inductance and therefore will not have as extended frequency response
toward its upper ranges! This results in a sound that is less open and kinda cloudy sounding! Whatever drivers you like, its a subjective preference.
Driver design is a compromise and always was!

daveg

02-08-2003, 04:10 PM

A average cone driver is only around 3 or 4 percent efficient.

600 watts of electrical energy in 24 watts of acoustic energy out.
Not a efficient design but not yet bettered. As you say Scott it is a comprimise on sound. There are no magic ways of doing something better than
anyone else.

bull19

02-08-2003, 04:13 PM

To make it easier for you to help me out,this is the situation.

Need better woofers than the Eminence speakers,because although they don't distort,they don't sound that clean and clear at high volume levels.
for playing and mixing music outdoors at very high volume levels of about 130db constant,with earthquaking amounts of bass,and still sounding
clean and clear.
For use in 18 inch scoop bass bins and large folded horns,and i'm playing and mixing dancehall reggae,ragga,soca,dub,Drum and Bass.
So I need a 18 inch sub bass speaker,which handles the power well,goes very loud,has good bass,and still sounds clean,clear and accurate.
RC F,Beyma,Precision Devices,Mc C auley are very expensive,and i can't afford a driver that cost 600 or more each.
Maybe either Fane C ollossus XB 18 600 AES or JBL 2226 800w AES.Will these suit my application,box type,and budget,and sound cleaner and clearer
and more accurate bass than the Eminence Sigma pro 18,and Eminence Omega pro 18,also Eminence Magnum pro 18 LF is another one to consider.
The large folded horn enclosure i've got looks pretty weird,dual front horn loaded slopes,and three ports on the speaker chamber,i guess it's simular
to the W-bin,but i made it from the plans in the 'Eminence high power loudspeaker enclosure design and construction' book.
It's a really helpfull book about everything about loudspeakers,and enclosure design. Book is by Adam Hall ISBN 0 95182252 1 6

clubman5

02-08-2003, 04:27 PM

Double 2226 loaded scoops will have GREAT punch. You can run this box/driver combo up to 250hz and have fantastic definition, tight, punchy
bottom, and very good output to 40hz! Below 40 it will fall off. Scoops are also SHORT throw cabinets. Outdoor use you may really need a LONG
throw cabinet! Big Folded Horns. or lots of ported boxes mutually coupled.
The Eminence drivers all sound good in the boxes they are designed to work in, I kinda maybe think if your not gettin clean clear bass it could be
something else on your end. No dissrespect, but my Emi,s play really well!
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In the 80,s many guys liked the Fane colossus 18B. That will work in a scoop or a folded horn.
I would have to hear your system to really make an educated calculation of whats going on!

clubman5

02-08-2003, 04:32 PM

Any driver/box combo will distort when it reaches a certain volume!

Another problem I think your experiencing is NOT ENOUGH speakers and coverage to really create the desired SPL. You have a box that takes
however many watts but no matter what if your gonna push it to the limit it will reach a point of breakup! Double the amount of speakers and have
MORE area coverage would give you MORE but much C LEANER volume. And you wouldnt have to push your system as hard! 130DB is HIGH!

scooppunk

03-13-2003, 11:39 AM

Think you got things the wrong way round.

Scoops ARE long throw
Folded horns/bass reflex AREN'T
and fane collossus 18xb rule the world. They are the cheapest 18" driver at that power and have the highest sensitivity

manny

03-14-2003, 03:13 AM

scoop punk you are wrong scoops are short to mediun throw and folded horns are long throw, bass reflex are short throw, as far as fane. tad, rcf,
and eminence, are better speakers. scott knows what hes talking about hes been doing this your 20 years and he has all of these cabnet so do your
homework punk!

bull19

03-14-2003, 01:37 PM

Yer, Scoop bass bins are medium throw not short throw,bass reflex are short throw,j bins or w bins or are long throw,large folded horn with bass
reflex chamber is long throw the horn section,short throw the ported section.
The best drivers are Precision Devices,ElectroVoice[EV],RC F,BEYMA,Tannoy Professional,Mc C auley,Tad.
Eminence,Fane,C elestion,C erwin Vega,Bumper,Zeuz,Mc Kenzie,P.Audio,Peavey are not top quality materials,unlike the above speaker manufactors.
EAW makes the highest quality speaker systems,Technomad,Funktion One,Turbosound,Ramsa,Bassmaxx,are not far off.
Peavey is more a budget make,but still is good quality.

perezs

03-14-2003, 01:50 PM

I DON'T MEAN NO DISRESPEC T SC OOP PUNK BUT YES, PLEASE DO YOUR HOME WORK... THESE GUYS ARE VETERANS,AND YOU DON'T WANT TO
SOUND STUPID ON THIS WEB PAGE..PEAC E
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