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TIME
10:00 a.m.
VENUE
AGENDA
ATTENDANCE
SENATORS PRESENT:
Hon. Ferdinand Bongbong Marcos Jr. Chairman, Committee
on Constitutional Amendments and
Revision of Codes
Hon. Teofisto TG L. Guingona III
Chairman, Committee on Peace,
Unification and Reconciliation
Hon. Ma. Lourdes Nancy S. Binay
- Member
Hon. Vicente C. Sotto III
- Member
Hon. Paolo Benigno Bam Aquino
- Member
Hon. Francis G. Escudero
- Member
GUESTS/RESOURCE PERSONS:
Hon. Teresita Quintos-Deles
SENATORS STAFF:
Mr. Juan Baras
Ms. Ma. Clarissa Lopez
Mr. Alcones Franklin Paul
Ms. Vina Panus
Ms. Margie Manlunas
Mr. Hutch M. Altavas
Ms. Andrea Gomez
Mr. Rosk Costuna
Ms. Kathleen Sonza
Mr. Mark Gamboa
Ms. Charlotte Franco
Mr. Dominic Lacbayo
Ms. Zheanne Aeson Dantis
Ms. Patty Taga
Mr. Sam Fernandez
- O/S Marcos
- O/S Binay
- O/S Binay
- O/S Osmea III
- O/S Angara
- O/S Sotto
- O/S Sotto
- O/S Sotto
- O/S Sotto
- O/S Recto
- O/S Escudero
- O/S Legarda
- O/S P. Cayetano
- O/S A. Cayetano
- O/S A. Cayetano
SENATE SECRETARIAT:
Ms. Assumption Ingrid B. Reyes Ms. Cleofe P. Caturla
Ms. Helen S. Gayapa
Ms. Cindell B. Gealan
Ms. Christine M. Nery
Ms. Rosemarie J. Ortiz
Mr. Guillermo E. Sapinoso Jr.
Ms. Nida A. Mancol
Ms. Maribel P. Mendoza
Ms. Ma. Emperatriz L. Novero
Ms. Susana Grace L. Robles
Mr. Rommel P. Alger
Ms. Norma G. Dizon
Ms. Mylene Palino
Mr. Jimmy Gaviola
Ms. Abigael Olson
Mr. Eric Jalandoon
Mr. Raul Balansag
Mr. Allan Laureano
- do -
Sakkam,
the
vice
chair
of
the
Bangsamoro
Transition
The
reason that I have asked for these hearings is very simple, is that we
the time of war there were security concerns. And for somebody who
is a combatant, perhaps for the protection of himself and his family
and his associates, that it not be known to the opposition who exactly
what their identity is.
many things.
Number one, precisely, the signing of the ceasefire agreement
was the cessation of war. And besides, if the reasoning behind your
continuing use of your nom de guerre is for security purposes, you
have made public appearances, you are known by now by the entire
country.
And again,
measures
that
would
ensure
that
their
security
is
not
compromised.
Secondly, my nom de guerre Mohagher Iqbal has been used as
early as Februarycpc
you are still very young at that time. The group of Salamat Hashim
was invited by your late father to talk about peace although the
meeting or the engagement was officially with the Moro National
Liberation Front. But anyhow, I think it was policy of government to
reach out to other groups who are also fighting the government. So,
there was an invitation by your late father to the MNLF new leadership
because at that time it was--the MILF now is known or was known as
new MNLF leadership.
from the new MNLF leadership and the new MNLF leadership under the
chairmanship
Malacaang
Salamat
and
that
Hashim
was
in
sent
three-man
February
1979.
delegation
One
of
to
the
representatives was former governor ... and then another one is a very
senior leader of the new MNLF leadership in the person of ... who is
another nom de guerre and then I was part of that delegation to
Malacaang.
Mohagher Iqbal.
It can be
And
documents,
signed
authority
coming
from
the
central
Already four
So,
what has taken place is that the government of the Republic of the
Philippines had taken the MILF as it was or as it is and then we also
consider the government of the Republic of the Philippines as a
legitimate partner in peace process.
11
But as I have
have gone beyond that and we are precisely in the process of peace
agreement and formalizing and institutionalizing those elements of that
peace agreement in the draft BBL.
Secondly, your point about confidence-building, I have to say
that it does not inspire confidence when I am negotiating with
somebody and I do not know what their real identity is. The effect of
using a nom de guerre during a negotiation is precisely contrary to
confidence-building. And then there are, of course, technical questions
12
guerre?
Commission upon the passage and the plebiscite of the BBL. And the
plebiscite subsequent to that, you will be the head of the government
of the Bangsamoro. So, immediately, the official documents, the funds
that will be entrusted to the transition commission will be under your
control.
So, again, the question of your identity is something that
becomes central. Although at this point, in a legal context, it is in fact,
I would say, maybe a tangential issue. But when we proceed further
along this process, it no longer is a tangential issue. So, that is why
there are concerns that have been made public by not only the
legislators but also in the general public and other commentators.
So, perhaps to clarify all of these, Mr. Iqbal, what is your true
name?
MR. IQBAL.
stated?
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS).
13
government should answer for that, not from me because, you know, I
will provide context. First, in our point of view, for other people who
understand where we are coming from and we also understand where
other people are coming from,
14
On the part of
15
government, they cannot implement that except some parts of it. For
instance, normalization, government can implement that. But on the
other substantive issues, it cannot be implemented by government
because essentially their ... are instruments to establish.../hsg
16
MR. IQBAL.
government.
So
government
necessarily
has
to
What is
He has
never been seen to commit any act that made us question that alias.
Mr. Iqbal has stood by everything that he has signed, and the MILF
stands by Mr. Iqbal and everything that he has signed.
When this
gentleman is sitting here in front of all the cameras. There are millions
of people who will see his face.
MS. DELES. Yes, Your Honor, but
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS).
19
MS. DELES. Yes, but that is why, Your Honor, in the matter of
his engagement with government in the peace negotiations, he is a
very public person.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Precisely. So
MS. DELES. But he does have a family. He does have a family
that carries his name.
carries that name and we know that the MILF still has enemies and
would love to see some problem with him.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS).
anybody here that non-combatants are not targets of the AFP, or the
PNP, of any agency in the government.
MS. DELES. The agencies in government, Your Honor, but there
are others that do not want this process to succeed. For Mr. Iqbal and
his family and relations to be submitted to that kind of problem, Your
Honor, which requires that he does invoke his right to privacy, Your
Honor.
Yeah.
Madam Secretary,
Yes.
Yes, Senator
22
SEN. BINAY. How about Chairman Ferrer, do you know his real
name?
MS. CORONEL-FERRER. Yes, Your Honor.
SEN. BINAY.
niya?
MS. CORONEL-FERRER. When I was doing my research on the
armed conflicts in the Philippines way back in the 1990s, Your Honor.
SEN. BINAY. So what is his real name?
MS. CORONEL-FERRER. That matter, Your Honor, I think there
are privacy and security issues involved here and whatever we say can
affect the lives of people who are related to him.
Therefore, Your
Iqbal,
mayroon
po
bang
tao
na
nagngangalang
You may
have not met him yet but its possible, correct me if Im wrong, that
there is a person with that name.
MR. IQBAL. We cannot discount that but I dont know.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Posible po.
Ang Iqbal po ba ay normal na apelyido sa Maguindanao kung
saan man po kayo pinanganak?
MR. IQBAL.
24
25
MR. CATAPANG.
SEN. ESCUDERO.
MR. CATAPANG.
Just to interject.
Your Honor.
SEN. ESCUDERO.
Forty-two years.
SEN. ESCUDERO.
Forty-two years.
So sa apatnaput-
26
MR. CATAPANG.
We havent any
SEN. ESCUDERO.
MR. IQBAL.
Yeah.
SEN. ESCUDERO.
SEN. ESCUDERO.
MS. CORONEL-FERRER.
alam.
28
MS. CORONEL-FERRER.
MS. CORONEL-FERRER.
SEN. ESCUDERO.
Yes, sir.
SEN. ESCUDERO.
MR. IQBAL.
SEN. ESCUDERO.
natin dito sa Mindanao. I do not want to say this but I have to be very
frank that we are still in a state of conflict, nandiyan pa rin ang
conflict. Kaya nga ang gobyerno at saka MILF, pumirma ng ceasefire
agreement para matigil po iyong putukan and then nag-usap tayo.
Iyang pag-uusap natin, marami tayong napirmahan na document. Ito
po ang napirmahan, napakakapal, from 1997. So dahil doon, marami
tayong napirmahan, iyong FAB at saka CAB. And then iyon nga, sabi
ko kanina, political documents.
Kaya nga ho, ginawa po natin iyong Bangsamoro Basic Law, legal
document at nasa kamay niyo po iyan, iyong legal document na iyon.
Pag maipasa na iyan po and then at the same time mayroon tayong
normalization process, pag nakaya po natin, nagawa po natin ang
lahat ng proseso na iyan, magno-normal po.
At saka everything na
Even the
SEN. ESCUDERO.
MR. IQBAL.
I agree po.
kayo takot kung bakit ayaw niyong ilahad ang inyong totoong
pangalan, sa militar po ba kayo natatakot?
MR. IQBAL.
the Moro National Liberation Front and then eventually the Moro
Islamic Liberation Front, we know that death is part of it. And we are
willing to undertake that if it is necessary.
SEN. ESCUDERO.
person, not just of the MILF but its a complex issue that would be
31
government?
MR. IQBAL.
Ang confict
natin
iyong
problema
po
at,
halimbawa,
Pero pag
naipasa
ang
subpoena
sa
namin
gobyerno
iyan
at
sinabi
ng
gobyerno,
32
SEN. ESCUDERO.
Nais din po
Pero ngayon,
33
Pag
ask that we invite the DFA for them to shed light on this and bring the
necessary documents on the matter?
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN MARCOS).
secretary is so instructed.
To get back to the point that Senator Escudero was trying to
make.
35
Eh
Mr. Chairman?
Mr. Chairman?
So perhaps we could--
36
Mr. Chairman?
Senator Guingona.
Yes, I yield.
Senator Sotto.
37
this document here coming from the chair of the MILF Al Haj
Murad saying that, By virtue of the powers and authority vested in me
as chair of the Central Committee-MILF, the MILF Peace Panel is
hereby authorized to negotiate with the government of the Philippines
for the GPH-MILF peace talks namely-- enumerating the name of the
members of the peace panel(1) Mohagher Iqbal, chairman; Datu
Michael Mastura, member; Maulana Bobby Alonto, member; Abdullah
Camlian, member; Abhoud Syed Lingga, member; Antonio Kinoc,
alternate member.
he is the Mr. Iqbal who signed the document, then there is no problem
with the existing documents.
May I also say, Your Honor, that the use of aliases certainly all
the laws that were cited not only in todays hearing but also in the
previous hearing in Congress applies to all individuals especially
38
elected officials.
produced by the Central Bank during the time of the former President
Joseph Estrada. It is signed by the President. It says here, Joseph
Ejercito Estrada, Pangulo ng Pilipinas.
Mr. Chairman?
Madam Professor, his
designation by the MILF has not been called into question anywhere,
certainly not here. So thank you for that.
MS. CORONEL-FERRER.
not only have to do with the name. The identity has to do with the
biometrics, the fingerprints, the face.
mask that disguises his real face. He can be called by different names
but the fact that he is the one and the same person who signed this
document.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS).
acceptable for those who are familiar with him but there are millions
more who are not. That is why this issue of his true name becomes
important. If you have doubt with him for three, four years, you know
who he is, you have seen him everyday for a very long time, fine. But
39
Chairman.
My first question is to Mr. Iqbal.
Mr. Iqbal, how long have you been a member and a negotiator of
the MILF?
MR. IQBAL.
The chief
how long?
MR. IQBAL.
panel of the MILF from 2001 up to the middle of 2003. And then on
40
July 29 after the death of Salamat Hashim because at that time the
panel of the MILF was headed by Vice Chairman Al Haj Murad Ebrahim.
So when Salamat died on July 13, Murad Ebrahim took over as
chairman of the MILF peace panel. So there was a replacement of the
MILF peace panel, and that was me. From July 29 up to today, I am
still the chief negotiator of the Moro Islamic Liberation Front.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. GUINGONA).
I think 15 years.
Fifteen?
Yes.
years?
MR. IQBAL.
41
Forty-two years. So
formally or informally all those 42 years, what was the status of the
MILF, was it a legal entity or was it a revolutionary force?
MR. IQBAL.
is a
revolutionary
organization.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. GUINGONA).
MR. IQBAL.
Agreed, agreed.
Okay.
So if a
42
43
THE
CHAIRMAN
physically arrested.
(SEN.
GUINGONA).
once
they are
the law. Thats why they are called rebels, rebelde kanino? Rebelde
sa gobyerno. So kung rebelde sa gobyerno, hindi kinikilala iyong mga
batas.
Are we in
agreement?
MS. CORONEL-FERRER. Yes, Your Honor.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. GUINGONA). So, therefore, it is not
proper to look at this problemI wont even call it a problemlook at
this issue of Mr. Iqbals having an alias as a legal problem because we
cannot look at it using the eyeglasses of a legal framework because
this is not legal, this is something bigger than legal. It is political, are
we correct?
MS. CORONEL-FERRER. Yes, Your Honor.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. GUINGONA). Thank you.
And therefore, if it is political, it is, I would say faulty to use any
legal laws or legal concepts on somebody who is operating beyond the
jurisdiction, beyond the ambit of the state over which he is actually
rebelling, am I correct?
MS. CORONEL-FERRER. Yes, Your Honor.
44
The MILF
45
states that he is their representative and they have never denied it,
they have never repudiated it. In fact, they have even enforced it in
Malaysia and in other countries all over the world.
Therefore, Mr.
Chairman, I do not see any problem. I do not see any problem with
Mr. Iqbals using the present alias as long as we continue the peace
process, the peace process until its final end. And Mr. Iqbal has said,
once the final end is achieved, they cease to be a revolutionary force
and they now form part of the state and therefore they voluntarily,
because of that peace pact, will submit to the laws of the Republic.
And at that point, we heard Mr. Iqbal, he did promise to reveal his
name.
So, Mr. Chairman, I would like to disagree that this is an
important issue. I would like to say that this is an issue, yes, but this
is an issue which should not hamper the proceedings of the peace
process until its final end. After all, what is the ending? The ending is
the MILF will join the government, the MILF will be part of the state,
the MILF will follow the laws of the state. Iyon ang gusto nating lahat.
And they have promised, Mr. Iqbal has promised, at that time, he will
reveal his real name.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
46
To recapitulate, Senator
Guingona, again, at the very outset, we recognize that the legal issues
at this point in the process are still secondary. However, the issues as
to the gestures of good faith, the confidence that everybody involved
in the process can have, in the personalities that they are dealing with,
certainly is not helped by the fact that we cannot even gain the true
identity of the chief negotiator of the MILF.
legal points that you have made are certainly taken but the point is not
that there is a legal impediment to the peace process because of the
use of an alias but there is impediment in terms of the confidence that
we feel when we are negotiating with someone who we do not even
know the true identity of.
For the record, I have examined this question a little bit before
coming to this hearing: None of the rebel groups who have signed
peace agreements with any of the governments have used aliases.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Mr. Chairman.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS).
47
Also in
It is not a
We are
48
MS. DELES. No, Your Honor, these are final peace agreements
that were also signed in Nepal, in Guatemala
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Precisely.
MS. DELES. that were signed under an alias, Your Honor.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Very well.
MS. DELES.
In fact, the
airwaves have been very full saying that the BBL will not be signed.
This is really a very strong warning, a very strong signal that there is a
segment particularly in the lawmaking instruments of government that
in fact this process may not be completed, Your Honor.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS).
argue this point as again, it is tangential. But the point is that we are
at a different stage in the process of peace negotiations than the
examples that you have given.
Senator Escudero has some
SEN. ESCUDERO.
record straight.
Secretary Deles or Dr. Ferrer, iyong pangalan po bang Al Hadj
Murad Ebrahim, is this his real name or is this an alias?
Maam, please.
MS. CORONEL-FERRER. The MILF will be the best.../jun
49
I know personally
the status of the name but again, for the same arguments, reasons of
security and privacy, we cannot confirm or deny.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Maam, even if that is his real name, you will
not confirm nor deny that that is his real name? Maam, if he is using
his real name, I guess you can tell us that that is his real name
MS. CORONEL-FERRER.
niya iyong totoong pangalan niya pero hindi niya aaminin at hindi nyo
aaminin dahil baka alias iyon.
MR. IQBAL. Your Honor, kasi sa amin, within the leadership of
the MILF, mayroon kaming tinatawag na sensitivity at saka mutual
respect. So, hindi ko
SEN. ESCUDERO. I understand that. Now, on the part
MR. IQBAL. But I just want to volunteer, Your Honor, if I may
give a little information. I dont know if this information has relevance
to our discussion, about the use of aliases.
Philippines has been dealing with the MNLF since your father, your late
father.
Misuari.
Hadji Misuari.
51
to give the same response because what I know and then some, you
52
know, you will ask for documents which I will not have, Your Honors, I
would
SEN. ESCUDERO. I will not ask, maam. Im just saying to the
best of your knowledge because youve been talking to these people.
MS. DELES. To the best of my knowledge, Your Honor?
SEN. ESCUDERO. Yes, ma'am. To the best of your knowledge,
maam, real name, maam?
MS. DELES. Bobby Alonto, yes.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Abdulla Kamlian.
MS. DELES. To the best of my knowledge, Your Honor?
SEN. ESCUDERO. Yes.
MS. DELES. To the best of my knowledge, Your Honor, and with
all the reservations that I have put forward, Yes.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Abhoud Syed Lingga. I hope I pronounced it
correctly and gave justice to the name.
MS. DELES.
53
Chairman Marcos said, we would have to get the real names of these
people because you would be issuing appointments.
MS. DELES. Definitely, Your Honor, yes.
SEN. ESCUDERO. But it would serve you well to know if this is
indeed their real name at this point in time or not.
MS. DELES. Your Honor, what has been important to us is that
we know who the organization is and that they have put forward
representatives by which they have stood by, by which we have a
paper that identifies the names of the ones who are sitting before us
and with whom there has never been any question of changes of
identities and identities connected to these names.
These persons
connected to these names have signed all the papers, have stood by
these papers, are submitting, have come to Congress several times
under those names and have answered questions, Your Honor.
And
never at any point has any of these that have signed any agreement
with government turned their back on what they have signed nor has
the MILF at any time ever said that these persons have signed unduly
54
changed that.
He has not
and examination, Your Honor. And as far as that goes, that is what we
stand by, Your Honor. This is what the peace process stands for. And
as I said again, this is not unique in this country. This has been the
practice in many peace negotiations in different parts of the world.
SEN. ESCUDERO.
simula pa lang. We are not saying that the documents he signed are
questionable. We are not saying that it is legally infirmed. No, were
not. What were simply asking is, tapos na iyong giyera, matagal na
tayong may ceasefire, nag-uusap na tayo ng harapan,
inaayos na
peace process. Maliit na bagay lang iyon pero parang tinga sa ngipin,
nakakairita na dapat sana isantabi na sa pamamagitan ng simpleng
kasagutan.
Walang threat.
maski pirmahan pa iyong BBL, ayaw pa rin nila iyan at may threat pa
rin kay Ginoong Iqbal. Mananatili po iyon at hindi kayang baguhin iyon
ng BBL. Kaya hindi porket pinirmahan iyong BBL ay doon lamang din
po sasabihin. Babalikan ko ho. Kung maliit na bagay lang talaga ito,
sana ibigay na. Kung tunay nga at kumplikado naman ito, ay di dapat
talaga pag-usapan at linawagin at hindi pakawalan.
Either way,
56
am glad you agree with us that it cannot be put into place without
clarification on all of these issues.
taking it up today. And that is why this is the issue that has taken up
all this time when we were meant to be here for a different purpose.
We have here with us the chairman of the MNLF central
committee,
Ambassador
Datu
Abdul
Alonto.
Your
Excellency,
alias, Ambassador.
MR. ALONTO.
As
57
MR. ALONTO.
rose, Mr. Senator, neither Iqbal is sweet as a rose. But may I remind
the good Chairman and good Senator that the MILF is a revolutionary
movement. I know my good brother, younger brother, Mr. Mohagher
Iqbal.
what I did, it proved the truth because Iqbal was one of those that
could have joined the first batch of the Moro National Liberation Front
but I declined and I rejected him, not on the basis that he was not
qualified, not on the basis that because he doesnt know law. In fact,
he was a university student at that time in Manila. These are the kind
of people we need at that time at the organizational stage of the
movement but because I already recruited the brother and another
first cousin I said it will be too much for your family. So I rejected
him, not because I do not like him but I want to sayand I told him,
You will better serve the revolution after the struggle, finish your
studies.
He is a bachelors degree holder now and a masteral degree but
his brother and his first cousin were all martyred. And perhaps as I
have told him the first time I met him because I do not even know he
is Iqbal until I realized when he spoke that he was the same
gentleman that I have rejected in the first batch. And I told him I was
58
right. Had I done it and have taken you with me, you could have died
like your brother. The MILF could have no negotiating team leader
now. But I will respect the position of Mr. Iqbal. If he wants to keep
his name, I respect him for that. But their chance, God willing and we
hope that we can resolve this issue, Mr. Senator and Mr. Chairman,
and, of course
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Thank you.
SEN. BINAY. Mr. Chair.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Thank you, Ambassador.
MR. ALONTO. Yes. Then I suggest if Iqbal wants to maintain
his name, I think there is no legal impediment there, Mr. Senator. I
think he can just do what President Joseph Estrada did, Senator
Jinggoy Estrada did and Ramon Revilla Jr. did, as simple as that. But
meantime, I think we have to respect that and everybody is known
Iqbal is known to the Malaysian facilitators and to his counterparts.
SEN. BINAY. Mr. Chair.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Thank you.
MR. ALONTO. Mr. Chairman.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Yes, please.
MR. ALONTO. May I add more on the personal views that was
raised here by the good Senator?
59
decision of Iqbal.
During the war, Mr. Senator, Alonto-Ibrahim checked in a hotel
in Davao City.
Robert Maulana
He is my first
60
academician.
CHAIRMAN
(SEN.
MARCOS).
Thank
you,
Mr.
61
dont apply to the rest, then perhaps Mr. Iqbal can also consider it not
applying to him.
That was the reason behind it, sir, not that there
information.
Thank you for sharing that with us, sir.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Thank you, Your Excellency
Ambassador Alonto.
SEN. BINAY. Mr. Chair.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Senator Nancy Binay has, I
think, another question to propound.
SEN. BINAY.
62
MS. DELES.
CHAIRMAN
(SEN.
MARCOS).
By
the
Transition
63
SEN. BINAY.
We respectfully
64
that point, that not only political documents but also legal documents
are
being
signed
and
at
what
point
in
time
should
this
be
addressed/mpm
65
SEN. ESCUDERO.
and not simply be based on when the BBL will be approved? Because
as early as now, legal documents are being signed already. Can you
do that, sir?
MR. SILVA.
of the Secretary.
SEN. ESCUDERO.
Okay.
I am Akmad Sakkam.
guerre.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS).
because I know you. So I know that that was your true name.
MR. SAKKAM.
66
Mohagher Iqbal, they will know who is he, then the sister, the brother,
they have so many enemies, the BIFF and even the former colleague,
the MNLF, they have enemies. So I could understand on that point.
Second issue, Mr. Chairman, on law.
He keeps on repeatedly
And
intended to evade you, Mr. Chairman, he cannot see it directly but that
is the point.
So with that, thank you.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS).
67
ceasefireat least on the MILF side, perhaps the other elements did
not comply strictly, but with the MILFthe ceasefire was instituted,
was formalized at 4 oclock, 1600H, of 25 January. That is what we
have from the PNP report, the AFP report and some of the testimony of
our CCCH and the AHJAG.
So, Secretary Deles, the report that the OPPAP had made also
has its own timeline. So what I would like at this point is to establish
exactly because there are slight variances in terms of the time and the
personalities and the events as to who were involved. So I would like
to, at this point, try and establish that timeline and I believe after we
68
have spoken the other day that there is a presentation that, I dont
know if it is your office or another office, that will make the
presentationah, it is the CCCH. Okay, very well. Perhaps you can
proceed with that presentation now.
What we are looking for is just, first, as a base line, establish the
timeline.
General, that this is a joint output of the IMT as well and AFP and also
the AHJAG of the MILF?
69
MR. GALVEZ.
Yes, sir.
Thats right.
Because of
the lack of time during the hearings, I was not able to go into further
detail. And thats why I called this hearing so that we can go into as
much detail as is necessary to find out and to really see exactly what
happened and who were involved, not only as you say the key leaders,
but even the other commanders or the other personalities.
MR. GALVEZ.
Yes, sir.
reestablish.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS).
General Galvez.
MR. GALVEZ.
SEN. BINAY.
you could give us a hard copy and we will have itipakopya natin para
magkaroon ng kopya ang Committee at saka iyong mga members.
MR. GALVEZ.
70
MS. DELES.
with all the actors at that particular day is still to be finalized, Your
Honor.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS).
No, sir.
No?
What we will be
doing is we will have timeline after the Senate hearing today and also
the executive meeting tomorrow, we will immediately go to the area
with my counterpart and also the men involved in the actual ceasefire
establishment so that we could really see all the details including all
the communications made by the
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS).
account so far?
MR. GALVEZ.
Very well.
71
MR. GALVEZ.
72
organized crime.
We have to characterize the problem as very volatile, meaning,
as of now it is stable but tense.
variables.
It is multi-ethnic, meaning,
there are social orders, different from each other wherein the solutions
cannot fit in on the other cultures. So we have the Maguindanaoans,
the Maranawans, Tausug, the Yakans, and the Samal and the
Christians which the relational perspectives of these are too different.
The problem is also generational because there is some sort of
accumulation of hate, meaning, there are some cultural experiences
73
these areas.
As you can see, the central Mindanao, we have the Maguindanao
and the Lanao and the Zambasulta.
meaning,
there
are
kidnap-for-ransom,
there
are
narcopolitics and narcoterrorism and also there are the presence of the
ASG, the JI, the lawless and the BIFF. The KAM has been present in
Lanao and also in central Mindanao.
Next.
This is the complexity of the conflict of Mindanao. This is a long
research since the time of General Ferrer, when he was the battalion
commander and brigade commander of Basilan Province.
And these
74
there are many ideologists and interest groups in the area. We have
the political armed group with same head, different interests. We have
the ASG, the BIFF, the MILF, the MNLF that we have the final peace
agreement in 1985 and the lawless elements, the kidnap-for-ransom
group, the drug lords and also the security sectors.
Sometimes,
There is injustice.
There is
areas and also the absence of governance, culture of violence, the rido
that we are talking about.
As you can see, nakikita natin dito sa ano natin, iyong
sometimes the lawless elements, the MNLF, the MILF and the PAGs,
mayroon silang concentration point.
So the question
Because on
75
CHAIRMAN
(SEN.
MARCOS.)
General,
iyong
Yes, sir.
cover some and see what are the lessons learned from that specific
incident.
MR. GALVEZ.
Yes, sir.
BBL.
MR. GALVEZ.
Yes, sir.
76
implementation,
breakdown of ceasefire.
conduct
quick
reactions
during
the
ceasefire.
On the AHJAG portion, its core function is law enforcement, to
coordinate the law enforcement on areas where there are MILF
communities.
And then also we have the local monitoring teams and the GCMP
on the different parts of the conflict-affected areas, especially the
potential flashpoints.
77
78
79
MR. GALVEZ.
during
the
meeting
which
were
participated
by
the
80
And then also, the IMT to play a significant role in education and
harmonizing the relationship of the MILF-BIAF and the Philippine
security forces.
In order to prevent another Mamasapano incident, the CCCH is
recommending the following recommended strategies: So, we have to
adopt the strategic offensive containment as a national policy. After
the Mamasapano incident, we never had a national policy in order to
contain the effects of the Mamasapano incident. Meaning, the strategic
offensive containment is based on broad diplomatic strategies and
focused military operations and massive development initiatives in
affected areas in Mamasapano. Because after the offensive in
Mamasapano, we have more than 123,000 evacuees. And more than
3,800 MILF-BIAF had been repositioned away from their families since
February 27 until now. They are still on their evacuation sites receiving
DSWD supplies.
And then also the second is the shifting from ceasefire violation
prevention to partnership. Meaning, we will become more proactive.
And we are doing this, operationalizing this in 104th Brigade, 103rd
Brigade, 602nd Brigade and 604th Mechanized Brigade and 2nd
Mechanized Brigade. And now, we are introducing this to 604th
Brigade.
81
down
on
one
communication,
there
will
be
another
two
83
And then also we will use both LGUs, the PNP and the NGOs in
the implementation of the ceasefire through the LMPs and JCMPs. We
have seen that the weakness of the CCCH before is the PNP is not
onboard in the ceasefire mechanism. Now, we will have them onboard
with the LGUs because we know that the mayors and the LGUs have
more control on the other civilian counterpart or the other parties not
in party with the ceasefire.
And then also the establishment of the protocols on the LEO
against the so that to preclude any misconception on the 24 hours
component. So, we will recommend to the panel for the new protocols
only on the HVI.
And then lastly, is to further strengthen the MILFs CCCH and the
AHJAG mechanisms of the MILF counterpart. I think this is the
weakness that we had. We have to strengthen the MILFs CCCH and
AHJAG components including their LUPs.
Then lastly, on the recommended legal remedies, we have to
revisit the Human Security Act. The Human Security Act does not
conform with the other modern counterterrorism act.
In Singapore, wherein there is no bombing, there is no terrorist
attack that happened, they employ the strategy of cultural harmony.
There are four races, four cultures that have been mixed in Singapore.
84
86
So
perhaps,
who
would
speak
for
the
International
Monitoring Team? Mr. Hovland, will you be the spokesman for today?
MR. HOVLAND. Yes, Mr. Chair.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Perhaps you could give us
some more details as to what were the events that transpired between
87
the start of the fighting which was again, more or less, 4 oclock, 4:30
a.m., 25 January, until the time that the IMT got involved in trying to
put together a ceasefire. That way, we can establish, at least, again
this timeline as a baseline for us to work with.
So, Mr. Hovland, if you could please maybe flesh out some of the
events that your report has mentioned.
MR. HOVLAND. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Your Honor, good morning. Before I proceed with your question,
I would request that we clarify the IMTs role here in this hearing. The
three factors that might be important now is the diplomatic aspect or
neutrality aspect and who we report to.
First, I know its rather unusual to invite foreigners to a hearing.
The International Monitoring Team consists of five contributing
nations. I myself from Norway and we have Malaysia, Brunei, Japan
and Indonesia and we are led by Major General Dato Sheik Muksin.
So I am appointed here in the Philippines, the diplomatic status
and in addition, all the members of IMT also have diplomatic immunity
in our terms or reference.
So second, most importantly, the IMT are here as a neutral and
impartial body respected by both the government and the MILF and we
88
of reference,
reporting to the Joint GPH and MILF Peace Panel. So even though there
are diplomatic neutrality and reporting aspects having us here, we
have chosen to be represented to show sincerity and our support to
the peace process.
So regarding to your question about the timeline, as I heard
General Galvez said that after this session, we will go through together
and make a timeline. I was there during that day so I have also my
own experiences
that we have
violations on
is why we are trying to shed some light precisely on what were the
events that happened
timeline.
So please, Mr. Hovland, whatever youre able to contribute will
be most useful to the Committee.
MR. HOVLAND. Well, if the peace panel agree, I would be glad
to
precise. I think thats important. But I can say in short that very day,
we were contacted first by our counterpart in the MILF CCCH, Rashid
Ladiasan, about the
headquarter and we tried to figure out and got the information about
the happening.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Mr. Hovland, could you give
us a time for that? I have from these various reports that we had
received from various agencies, the first mention of the IMT was, at
7:30 a.m., Major
Monitoring Team.
Is that consistent with your records as to what happened?
MR. HOVLAND. That is correct. Major Sol called me that
morning.
90
CCCH?
MR. HOVLAND. As I just said, Im glad to make maybe a more
precise timeline about the happenings and the actions taken to you if
only agreed upon by the peace panel.
MS. CORONEL-FERRER.
of the IMT, we have provided your Committee with a copy of the IMT
report. And as far as the government panel is concerned, we have no
91
objection
to
Mr.
Hovland
providing
this
Committee
with
any
Mr.
Hovland.
MR. HOVLAND. Okay. From our report /ngdizon
93
question too.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. GUINGONA). Yes. Mr. Hovland, you
mentioned prior coordination.
must beyoull change the protocol for the LEOs, for the HBTs.
MR. GALVEZ. Your Honors, after the Congress hearing and also
with the Senate report and the report of the BOI, we have seenthere
is contentious issues on the LEO on HBT pertaining prior coordination
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. GUINGONA). Prior coordination.
MR. GALVEZ.
hours provision.
THE
CHAIRMAN
(SEN.
MARCOS).
That
actually
was
Whereas, the
The
5:37 a.m.
So, there
But again, the interpretation differs. And as far as the SAF position is,
there was no need for prior coordination according to their reading of
that exemption.
95
Yes.
The question of
whether or not they had complied with the guidelines that were agreed
upon is called into question because they have different interpretations
of those same guidelines.
guideline. We may agree, we may not agree. But that is the position
that they have taken. And that is why the problems were caused.
Id like to get back again since we have gone straight to the
policy discussion. Id like to go back to establish the timeline. Again,
we cannot talk about any of this until we have established that.
96
Latter
7:31,
between the elements of the AFP, of the PNP and the MILF. There was
sporadic shooting but these were identified as coming from the BIFF
elements and other armed groups.
So, can we come to an agreement between all of us here that
that is more or less the timeline? What I would like to fill in because
the last item I have here is 11:45 a.m., the JCCT had already spoken
to the commander of the 105th MILF. And the question that maybe I
could put to the MILF is, why not at that point did the MILF stop
fighting? Because the commander had already been informed that his
troops were fighting against were government troops. So, surely that
would have been a sufficient information for him to order his people to
withdraw from the fight. Because I know that there are reports from
the AFP that around 12 oclock, 1 oclock, pina-withdraw niyo na iyong
mga AFP elements.
98
the AFP side, its clear that there was already an order to withdraw or,
at least, to ceasefire.
What happened on the MILF side, Chairman Iqbal, para malaman
natin what happened after the JCCT had spoken to the commander of
the 105th Commander Goma? And why the fighting continued?
MR. IQBAL. Your Honor, I think that question can be answered
by the chair of the MILF Coordinating Committee on Cessation of
Hostilities and perhaps maybe I can request General Galvez to
supplement.
But anyway, would, Your Honor, permit to focus on the issue of
coordination.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Yes, yes, please go ahead,
yes.
MR. IQBAL. Modesty aside, I think I should be the best person
to be asked about this one because I was the one who signed in behalf
of the MILF about the terms of reference of the Ad Hoc Joint Action
Group.
First, it was signed in 2002 and then 2009 and then 2012. 2009,
I was the one who signed the document. And then 2012, I was the
one who signed the documentcpc
99
MR. IQBAL. And then 2012, I was the one who signed the
document together with now Associate Justice Marvic Leonen in 2009.
No, in 2009, it was with Ambassador Seguis. And then in 2012, it was
with Associate Justice Marvic Leonen.
The controversial portion is that it is somewhat except for
operations against high priority targets, a list of which shall be
provided by the GPH panel to the MILF peace panel, the AHJAG shall
inform the GPH and MILF CCCH at least 24 hours prior to the conduct
of the AFP-PNP operations in order to allow sufficient time for the
evacuation of civilians and to avoid armed confrontation between the
GPH and MILF forces.
So, since I am a signatory to this terms of reference of the
AHJAG, modesty aside, I know the literal meaning as well as the
nuance of the agreement. In other words, what I am saying here is
that whether it is an ordinary operations against the targets, there is
such thing as prior coordination even including high value targets.
First, in relation to high value targets, there has to be a list that
shall be provided by the government peace panel to the MILF peace
panel. So, that is the first coordination.
Second, the AHJAG has to be informed about the impending
operation. So, that is the second coordination.
100
For
Public
Order
and
102
this
helps
clarify
the
provision
on
Okay.
Chairman, we are
MS. CORONEL-FERRER.
Napeas who had mentioned that their interpretation is that there was
no
breach
in
prior
coordination
because
they
had--given
the
stated.
Would you concur, Mr. Chairman?
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS).
contested by many of the other--the OPAPP, the CCCH-SEN. AQUINO. And the AFP, and the IMT.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS).
He has
mentioned that that was a violation although they are very even
handed in their analysis. That is the position. But I dont know if it is
the PNP in general but certainly that was the one that was explained to
the Committee during the Mamasapano hearings by General Napeas.
SEN. AQUINO. Yes.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. GUINGONA). So, Mr. Chairman, with
the indulgence of Senator--I just wanted to clear. So, there is no such
thing as an exemption.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Yes, there is.
105
In any of
General, eksaktong-
ARMM before.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS).
siyam,
iyong
coordination?
iba
may
coordination
naman
ang
PNP.
Prior
the
MR. GALVEZ. The practice.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). iyong kanilang SOP?
MR. GALVEZ. Yes, sir.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Dahil nga sa kanilang
SEN. AQUINO. Mr. Chairman.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS).
interpretation.
SEN. AQUINO. Mr. Chairman, if I may just finish my point.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Yes. Go ahead. Go ahead,
Senator Aquino.
SEN. AQUINO.
Oho.
ang PNP na walang coordination. Did you call their attention at that
time and say, Uy, mayroon tayong agreement.
We have an
109
there and then they also get out. So basically, sir, I have no contact
with them. Honestly, sir, thats my shortfall.
SEN. AQUINO. Okay.
MR. ORENSE. And regarding, sir, the knowledge of the PNP, sir,
we have here, sir, the Revised Joint AFP-PNP Operational Guidelines for
the Ad Hoc Joint Action Group which was signed by then Police Director
General Alan Purisima and General Emmanuel Bautista, the chief of
staff, on 23rd day of July 2013.
targets.
MR. ORENSE.
Yes, sir.
priority targets.
Sir, I think the context of this is the coordination should only be
between the AHJAG and the CCCH. Its not within the operating units
and the AHJAG.
So with that, sir, the succeeding paragraphs, letter (g) and letter
(h), Hot pursuit operations, operating unit should inform the AHJAG.
Cases of implementation of search warrants, AFP-PNP units coordinate
with AHJAG or inform the AHJAG.
110
succeeding will say that there is really a need for a coordination, Your
Honor.
SEN. AQUINO. Sorry, General, para lang malinaw, what youre
saying is iyong konteksto noong exemption is not with regard to AFP
and PNP.
MR. ORENSE.
Yes, sir.
111
Are we
already
MS. CORONEL-FERRER.
explain?
The PNP has sat in all of the teams. The AHJAG team site, there
are PNP officers there and since last year, the PNP created the PNP
focal team led by General Ingking who has been working with us
consistently.
Inquiry report already affirmed the matter of prior coordination and the
mother document for that which the BOI report cited is the 1997 Peace
Agreement and that is the specific article on Article II, Actions
Exempted from Cessation of Hostilities. It says here, Confrontational
situations between the GRP and MILF forces shall be avoided by prior
coordination with the latter during police and military actions, activities
112
aspects:
police
actions
such
as
preventive
patrols,
Yes.
But I
remember in the first few hearings that there was a statement made
that the PNP was not sending
MS. DELES. They have not sent senior officials that were being
requested, Your Honor.
SEN. AQUINO. Okay. But there were officials there
MS. DELES.
113
SEN. AQUINO.
Okay.
already, Professor?
MS. CORONEL-FERRER. Thank you, Your Honor.
Two of the remedial measures that were undertaken to enhance
the coordination with the PNP was number one, to go through a series
of workshops together with the PNP that led to the signing of the letter
directive that was cited by General Orense earlier that happened in
July 2013, and the signatory to that joint letter directive was none
other than the former PNP Chief of Staff Alan Purisima and the former
AFP Chief of Staff Emmanuel Bautista. That was number one, sir.
Number two, latter part of last year, the PNP designated a PNP
Focal Team made up of five senior police officers that will be
coordinating with the Office of the Presidential Adviser on the Peace
Process and all of these matters. But otherwise, since the creation of
the AHJAG, the PNP has sent officers on different levels. 1) the AHJAG
Core Team which is the coordinating body.
chair who has always come from AFP but other members of the Core
Team are PNP officers, and then the Team sites that are located in
114
Are
they here?
MS. CORONEL-FERRER.
He heads
this Focal Team but if I will refer back to the findings of the BOI, they
did say that this matter was not observed, the prior coordination rule
in the ceasefire agreement which is very clear, and then also that
matter relating to the AHJAG. So I think that is one of the findings of
the BOI.
And the fact is that Oplan Exodus did say that the
115
MS. CORONEL-FERRER.
and
including
the
Ceasefire
Aquino.
We have actually gone beyond our time allotted here. But before
we end, I would like to go back again to the specific details and I had
intended earlier to go to Mr. Ladiasan because he was the one on the
ground. In fact, it was his testimony that gave us some of the details
that we have and that we are using to base all of these discussions.
So Mr. Ladiasan, I will pose to you the question that I posed to
Chairman Iqbal. What happened after 11:45 when the Joint Ceasefire
Crisis Team had already met with the commander of 105th and why did
the ceasefire not occur at that time or very soon after?
MR. LADIASAN.
barakatuh.
Mr. Chairman, Your Honors, if I may be allowed, before I answer
the question that Ill be narrating the information on the facts, the
116
term of events from early morning and even the day prior, so well be
able to trace, relate the earlier incidents before that.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN MARCOS).
panels.
Noong January 24 po, magkasama po kaming nasa mechanism
lahat, CCCH, at nandoon po kami sa Iligan at we were assisting the
activities of the independent decommissioning body working as part of
the normalization process on the decommissioning of the MILF
combatants and firearms.
117
5:45.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN MARCOS).
Oo, sige.
Tama.
Consistent itong
MR. LADIASAN.
118
under sa CCCH kung ano po ang nangyayari dahil under po sa AOR nila
iyon at vinalidate (validate) po nila, kinonfirm (confirm) po nila na may
nangyayari doon sa Tukanalipao.
Sumunod po doon ay kumuha rin po ako ng guidance sa
Darapanan.
CHAIRMAN
(SEN
MARCOS).
Again,
iyong
oras
importante.
So anong oras iyong conversation niyo sa Darapanan kung saan
binanggit ang kanyang instruction to coordinate with your counterpart?
What time was that?
MR. LADIASAN.
before I communicated with Major Sol and General Galvez. Then una
ko hong tinext (text) sabay iyong multiple sending ng text messages
as what appeared in our narration, kasi ito po ginawa po ng CCCH,
GPH at saka MILF, ito po iyong narration of timelines and incidents. At
sumunod po doon at tinranslate (translate) ko ng English, tinext ko po
ang IMT which was actually William was actually mentioning na na-
119
at
sabi
ko,
We
are
already
coordinating
with
our
out
namin
effectively
iyong
mapagkakasunduan
naming
120
Ako lang yata at that time ang nasa Cotabato plus the IMT na nasa
Cotabato. Pero we made it at 9:00 na nandoon na ho kami sa IMT at
after that we proceeded toand before that sinasabi nga namin na
pupunta kami sa area. Iyon din ang sinabi namin sa IMT na we will go
to the area to meet with the commanders and talk to them how we can
effect the ceasefire kasi kailangan nila iyong presence namin sa
ground.
Dumating po kami doon ng around 11:30, sa recollection namin,
sa
bahay
ni
Ustadz
Zacaria
Goma.
Pero
while
on
the
way,
121
MR. LADIASAN.
Ang
At ang kasunduan
Hovland dahil IMT sila pati iyong kasama nilang nasa daan contingent
122
Nag-usap-usap ko
kami doon kung anong gagawin, how will we proceed to the area,
anong
nangyayari,
we
will
assess,
anong
kailangan
naming
will retrieve the cadaver noong mga SAF pero wala kaming gamit dahil
hindi ma-access ng mga vehicle iyong trail.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS).
sir.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS).
Nabanggit mo kanina
MR. LADIASAN.
Eighty-four.
Forty-fifth Infantry
Batallion?
MR. LADIASAN.
MR. LADIASAN.
ganyan.
Okay.
So skirmishes na
Opo.
informing us that there is a fighting between the 105th and the Army,
the AFP. So as an SOP upon receipt of such information immediately,
we looked at the array of forces in the vicinity of the engagement area.
So we called up 6th ID, first mechanized brigade; 601st brigade; the
45th ID. And before calling the Philippine National Police, the provincial
director, he called me that he said, Bok, are you aware of the
encounter in Mamasapano? So I told him that we just received the
information that there is an encounter and I asked him, Are there
troops from that PNP in the area because the army is saying that they
dont have troops engaged in the area?
127
MR. SOL. they are the national unit, we are not involved, he
said. So with that
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). When you say 6th ID, you
are talking to the commander, General Paner?
MR. SOL. G3, sir, to the operations officer.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Sa operations. Okay.
MR. SOL. Yes, sir.
So I recommended to General Galvez, I told him that, Sir, its
better for us to ask permission from the IDB that we go ahead to
Cotabato to attend to this problem. However, while we are preparing,
at 7:30, I called up Mr. William Hovland, the chief operations officer of
the International Monitoring Team and I requested from him if the IMT
could organize a team that would accompany the CCCH and AHJAG.
Because we told him that we are not around but I will muster the
available members of the CCCH that we have in Cotabato.
And that time, I called up our staff, Ronnie Arap and Dave
Jungko, my operations officerduring that time they were at the
Awang Grotto Church, hearing mass. So I told them, You make a sign
of the cross and go to our office, muster all our personnel, including
the driver, vehicles and everything, link up with the MILF-CCCH,
Brother Rashid is there, you proceed to the headquarters of the
128
129
So because
briefing, they went to Kuloy at the house of Ustadz Zacaria Goma, the
commander of the 105th Base Command and they talked also with
Wahid Tundok there.
130
131
evacuation
areas,
the
ceasefire
committee
should
AFP.
132
MR. SOL. Oo. So baka mamaya atakehin nila iyong ibang AFP
forces. Ito iyong nangyayari sa ground.
So thats why I did not join their group because their team is
already complete. I have to stay in between their group, the position
of General Pangilinan and General Galvez with the tactical command
post and I am at the center monitoring the movement of the crisis
team
including
what
is
happening
around
the
vicinity
of
the
engagement areas.
So nakikita ko naman iyong galaw. Kaya na-mention kanina ni
Brother Rashid, after the meeting, they divided into two groupsiyong
isa armado, pumunta kay Wahid iyon, pupunta sana doon sa kabila.
However, when they were moving towards the link-up point doon sa
105th na involved, kasi gusto nilang pagsabihan iyong 105th, You
have to make a ceasefire and get out of the area, ang nangyari,
nakita na rin siya sa may Tuka, sa may crossing Tuka, which is also
the tactical command post of the 45th IB. Good that the crisis team,
the first group was already there. Kaya noong they were firing at the
team of Wahid Tundok, akala nila re-enforcement doon sa kabila, nagnegotiate iyong ceasefire na, Sir, si Wahid Tundok iyon.../jun
133
Shariff
Aguak,
ito
iyong
papuntang
Tukanalipao.
The
The
Committee namin sa ground because one single fire will mean injury or
death of our people. We had that experience in 2008. Thats why sabi
namin, Maingat kayo.
Thats why
Noong
134
Noong
nag-ceasefire,
bumalik
sila
rito.
Then,
the
namin.
We
have
been
in
several
incidents
like
this.
Napakabigat pa nung iba. Kaya lang, ito, this is a very close fighting.
Talagang ubusan ng lahi itong mangyayari.
may hinahabol.
So, tinanong ko iyong ceasefire team doon kay Brother Rashid.
Sabi ko, Mayroon pa daw putok.
Wala na, Bro.
malayo.
So, tinanong namin, Ano daw iyon, sir?
So, 1.5 kilometers northeast of Tukanalipao, iyon ang sinasabi.
Doon daw nanggagaling ang putok.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Ah, iyon na iyong 84th.
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MR. SOL. Palagay ko, sir, iyon na ang 84th. So, sabi ko kina
Brother Rashid, Okay, you go back to Colonel Bautista.
You ask
Wala na sa
Tukanalipao.
So, ang ginawa ng MILF is tinawagan ang base commander.
Sinabi ng i-clear lahat iyong Mamasapano, i-clear ng MILF because the
rescue operation will start.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). What time was that?
MR. SOL. Its alreadyI think the negotiation was 6 oclock in
the evening. Mga ganoon na, sir.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS).
To recover cadavers, to
Hindi.
nalaman?
MR. SOL. Yes, sir, na mayroon.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). That had to correlate also
with what General Pangilinan was saying.
5:15.
Saan nanggaling,
Okay.
Very well.
Sige,
MR. SOL. Yes, sir. Babalik lang ho, sir, dito sa 4 oclock.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Okay.
MR. SOL.
And my operations officers went with the group of the MILF Ceasefire.
They went inside the bridge. Then, when they were there, hinila siya
ng counterpart namin, si Mr. Butch Malang.
sumunod dito? Lets get out from this area. Hindi mo ba alam iyang
nasa harap puro BIFF na iyon? And they overheard na sinabi ng tao
doon na, Kristiyano iyan.
Kukunin na natin.
And let us
dark na iyong lugar, hindi na natin alam kung ano iyong mga
nangyayari doon.
operations iyong 45th IB. So, sabi namin, Okay, all members of the
team should get out of the area and we will just advise the barangay
chairman to direct his people to look into the areas na hindi rin mawala
iyong mga cadavers doon sa area.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). So, eventually, the bodies
of the dead SAF troopers were recovered most ng 5:30, something like
that, 6 oclock.
MR. SOL. Mga 9 oclock, sir, ng gabi.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Ah, 9 oclock na. Gabinggabi na talaga. . . . (nam)
141
Gabing-gabi na talaga.
And then eventually the retrieval team that went in the morning went
in already about first light siguro. Oo, first light. Okay.
Well, ladies and gentlemen, marami pa tayong pag-uusapan, as
you can imagine, but we have really overstayed our welcome here in
our hearing. We were meant to be finished at 12 but the issue again
of aliases took up most of our allotted time.
So we will have to end there. We will continue. We will have to
continue with this and I think we have sufficient information as to the
events especially concerning the AHJAG and the CCCH and the actions
that they undertook to institute the ceasefire. Now, I think the next
will be lessons learned and what can we do.
We have in this hearing clearly focused on the problem of the
coordination and the differing interpretations between what the police
and the SAF specifically were following and what was seen bywell, to
begin with, by the CCCH as the standard procedure.
So thank you for your participation and we will be scheduling
further hearings and we will inform you all when we have done so.
So with that, ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much. We
are suspended.
[THE HEARING WAS SUSPENDED AT 1:33 P.M.]/mpm
142