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down and it was a cockroach. I opened my eyes and [pause] what was born was not
meand, the way I tell it isshe rose, she walked, she apparently talked. She was
delighted. It is so ecstatic to be born and not born. It sees, and sees everything, without a
concept. It's amazing.
SM: Now, you're in the attic, the cockroach crawls over your foot, and you have an
opening of some sort?
BK: That's it. Most definitely.
SM: Would it work to call it a sustained transcendent experience?
BK: I don't really call it anything
SM: Well, would the words match considering how it's described here? [I point to
Maslow's description of transcendence, and then my description of sustained
transcendence.]
BK: I would say, yes. Everything. It transcended itself and itself was everything. It
totally transcended that. It's like this. Every moment's like this. It's like if you [lifts
hand in front of face] is to be amazed. Just to see this hand, is amazing! I mean, I eat that
food [points to the food], I am eating myself. It is so good! I mean, every moment, It is
Itself now. But to see this, you get still with that. Or this. And you die. You dissolve into
it. Anyone would. Just to get still. And I call it, who we are without a story. But it'sI
call it love, because I don't have another word. But just to see my hand in front of my
face, or my foot, or the table, or anything, it's to see it for the first time. Here are the
words that I would use: 'It's a privilege beyond what can be told.' It's self experiencing the
mirror image of itselfborn [inaudible in love?].
SM: Mmm.
BK: Yeah. They said this is your husband. I said, good. These are your children. I said,
good. Your name is Katie. Okie dokey.
SM: So you truly had a disidentification. Even of memory?
BK: Everything. Everything. Everything.
SM: So how did your behaviour change?
BK: Radically. Radically. Extreme opposite. It took a 180-degree shift. Totally. Total
shift.
SM: So, some practical things: You were spending vast quantities of time in bed, you
were depressed, and when the shift occurred?
BK: None.
SM: No time in bed?
BK: None. Three hours sleep and not eating.
SM: How many hours of sleep would you say you get now?
BK: Fiveseven.
SM: Has your appetite returned?
BK: Yes.
SM: Many seekers are aspiring toward having a sustained transcendent experience. Can
an STE be prepared for?
BK: If I say, if I talk about, 'I want to be enlightened' it implies a future. And there isn't
any. And then we attach toone by one, by one, by one I call it 'they get married and
have babies.' It's reincarnation. You start with thethe I arises, and if you don't notice,
then it has a baby and a baby and a baby and it splits, it's a cellular [laughs] thing it's
like the atoms splitting I call it instantaneous unenlightenment. But if you'll notice,
then it ends. There's no more reincarnation. So if you don't notice, it continues. And that's
time and space and place. It's an illusion. Like an internal optical illusion.
So there's only transcendence in the moment. Nobody can be transcended forever. That's
why I say, 'who cares if you're enlightened forever? Can you just get it in this moment,
now?' And that's what the investigation's about. I mean, that's all there is. I mean we're so
attached to the concept we're in, that we reallyit's such a vivid movie that it would
imply a past and future with it all in it. It's just a concept now. So it is just in the moment
now. There's no division point in it. There's nowhere where you know where it
differentiates. It is so good. It, this transcendence thing is just a beginning. Until it comes
back for itself and claims it, transcendence is just a beginning. It's just a concept. And
that's what you were saying. It's a concept that people aspire to and they don't re-enter.
And I don't know why people don't speak of it. But transcendence, there's nothing in it.
When It comes back for Itself, the mere image of Itself It's intoxicated. Couldn't have
anything else. It's a matter of total greed.
SM: What is?
BK: Itself. It would have everything. It would just preen in front of the mirror. And you
are thatand thatthat beauty, and old and young, tall and short, and all things, and a
flower and a treeundivided. And that's a beginning.
SM: [Inaudible question.]
BK: Yeah, no story, no suffering. No attachment to story, no suffering. I don't even know
what a sustained transcendent experience is. I only know that I have not seen a problem
in 13 years that is real. And I have not met anyone or anything that I would change.
Everything brings me such joy. I am everything. If that's what a sustained transcendent
experience is, no wonder people seek it; even though it is always, always apparent.
SM: Um. Let's go back to that you didn't have any words or concepts, I'm guessing you
had never read any books, is that correct, aboutsuch things [that we're discussing]?
BK: No, no, not ever.
SM: Have you ever had a phase, like Suzanne Segal describes, about fear?2
BK: Suzanne Segal was a friend of mine and I couldn't relate to anything she said.
"The mere fact that they suffer from it tells me that they know better. I used
to ask people, why are you pretending not to know?"
SM: You had the fear for 10 years, first? And so by the time your shift happened
BK: Like U.GI totally relate. And Suzanne, nothing. She used to call me and I couldn't
relate to anything she said.
SM: Can a person having a sustained transcendent experience know if someone else is
having one?
BK: No. I see everyone as awake, whatever that is. I see everyone as clear.
SM: But you know when they're talking about their story
BK: I see they believe they're not. I see the mere fact that they tell the story shows me
that they don't. The mere fact that they suffer from it tells me that they know better. I
used to ask people, why are you pretending not to know?
SM: Would you say then, that Suzanne was pretending that she knew?
BK: No. No, I wouldn't say that. I just don't relate to anything she said.
SM: She described disidentification by saying that she was located to the left of her body.
Do you have that experience?
BK: No.
SM: So, do you know if U.G. is having a sustained transcendent experience?
BK: He's as close to my experiencehe's the only one I've met that I relate to.
SM: His description about his shift was that it was a calamity I mean he tends to
portray the good, the bad and the ugly.
BK: And, see, that's where U.G. and I tend to have a different experience. I didn't
experience a calamity. I experience the opposite. The thought that I existed at all was a
calamity. And the opposite of that is really delightful from here.
SM: So, if I were to one day wake up and be having some kind of transcendent
experience, how would I know?
BK: You don't. You don't even care. There's no one to care. I can't even put it into
words self-love? [That would] be a guess. Words are always going to fall short, which
is a sweet thing.