Documenti di Didattica
Documenti di Professioni
Documenti di Cultura
1
2
3
4
IN RE:
6
7
No. 10-BK-31607
VOLUME VII-B
AFTERNOON SESSION
TUESDAY, JULY 30, 2013
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
APPEARANCES:
On Behalf of Debtor:
GARLAND S. CASSADA, ESQ.
Robinson Bradshaw & Hinson, PA
101 North Tryon Street, Suite 1900
Charlotte, North Carolina 28246
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
1842
APPEARANCES (Continued):
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
1843
APPEARANCES (Continued):
On Behalf of Interested Parties:
2
Carson Protwall LP:
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
Creditor Committees:
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
1844
APPEARANCES (Continued):
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
1845
APPEARANCES (Continued):
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
Future Asbestos Claimants:
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
1846
I N D E X
2
3
DIRECT
CROSS
REDIR
RECROSS
Arnold Brody...........1847.....1867.....1908......1914
Carl Brodkin...........1916
6
7
E X H I B I T S
8
9
ADMITTED
10
11
12
13
14
ACC-3562.....................................1866
ACC-3563.....................................1866
ACC-3564.....................................1866
ACC-3565.....................................1866
ACC-3332.....................................1990
ACC-3333.....................................1990
ACC-3334.....................................1990
ACC-3336.....................................1990
15
16
17
ADMITTED
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
PAGE
Reporter's Certificate.............................1993
1847
Further Direct - Brody
1
P R O C E E D I N G S
MR. GEORGE:
THE COURT:
By MR. GEORGE:
Q.
10
11
they do?
12
A.
13
is the lung.
14
15
normally Saran Wrap thin, that's how thin it is, and then
16
17
18
19
20
21
side and grow into the peritoneal cavity as well and into
22
23
Q.
24
25
Yes.
This
1848
Further Direct - Brody
1
A.
Yes.
damage genes.
today about cells and I've showed you that cells can pick
It has to
10
11
12
13
14
cell growth.
15
16
17
genes.
18
19
20
21
22
cell growth.
23
24
25
1849
Further Direct - Brody
1
vitro study.
Q.
cells?
A.
Yes.
That's
10
right.
11
12
them for you here, and then there's another cell over
13
here.
14
15
16
the cell.
17
18
And some fibers have been added, and you can see
19
genes.
20
21
segments of DNA.
22
23
24
25
That's
1850
Further Direct - Brody
1
dividing?
Q.
10
A.
Right.
11
12
13
Q.
14
dividing?
15
A.
16
17
you here.
18
three.
19
20
21
22
23
skin.
24
replacing themselves.
25
Exactly.
And
1851
Further Direct - Brody
1
replaced.
to divide.
I could
cell's divided.
10
11
duplicate and then we'll get two new cells like the
12
original.
13
like.
14
Each
15
16
17
are these light and dark bands that represent where our
18
19
20
21
22
23
correct chromosome.
24
25
They replicate.
1852
Further Direct - Brody
1
cells."
You can
added and you can see there's long crocidolite fibers and
10
11
12
13
14
Aneuploidy.
15
separation.
16
17
18
19
20
21
fiber spanning the two cells and there's DNA bound to the
22
23
Q.
24
25
barrier?
The
So half of the
1853
Further Direct - Brody
1
A.
known for a long time that dividing cells are more likely
Q.
A.
No.
Q.
A.
No.
10
Q.
11
A.
Okay.
12
slide.
13
14
Q.
Sure.
15
A.
16
17
18
19
20
suppressor gene.
21
22
23
24
protects us.
25
That's right.
They
So
This is a tumor
So that's how it
1854
Further Direct - Brody
1
genes.
genes get activated and drive the cells down our death
pathway.
again.
cancer.
10
going to work.
11
Q.
12
13
14
15
A.
16
17
18
That's right.
19
20
21
time for first exposure until the time the person comes
22
to the clinic.
23
24
Q.
Okay.
25
A.
1855
Further Direct - Brody
1
And here
Mesothelioma.
bind the DNA as I just showed you, but asbestos can also
Now, in this
These are
10
11
12
13
14
DNA.
15
16
damage.
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
developed.
24
25
daughter cell.
So whatever
So
The surface
1856
Further Direct - Brody
1
And you
combinations of DNA.
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
happen.
17
18
19
divide.
20
21
cells.
22
There's no
But then in
23
24
25
1857
Further Direct - Brody
1
then, with the two genetic errors divides and can sit
divide:
again.
errors.
Q.
Four
10
11
different replication.
12
A.
13
14
15
16
That's right.
Okay.
Another gene.
Because we haven't
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
know how many errors you can find in a given tumor, but
25
It's
Now we
1858
Further Direct - Brody
1
Q.
A.
Q.
But
10
A.
Sure.
11
12
13
14
Q.
15
16
A.
Yes.
17
Q.
18
19
20
A.
21
22
23
toxic.
24
Q.
25
Yes.
All right.
1859
Further Direct - Brody
1
humans?
A.
Yes.
Q.
A.
Asbestosis.
Q.
10
A.
No question.
11
Q.
Okay.
12
macrophages?
13
A.
14
laboratory as well.
15
Q.
16
17
toxic --
18
A.
They try.
19
Q.
20
A.
21
22
Q.
23
24
25
A.
Absolutely.
1860
Further Direct - Brody
1
disease.
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
10
A.
11
specific genes.
12
13
14
15
16
Q.
17
18
19
A.
Yes.
20
Q.
21
22
23
24
A.
Yes.
25
Q.
Okay.
And
1861
Further Direct - Brody
1
A.
study causation.
species.
certain animals.
Q.
No.
10
11
experiments?
12
A.
13
14
pleural cavity.
15
16
Q.
17
18
19
A.
20
21
22
23
24
disease.
25
Q.
Yes.
Sure.
Do they do injection
Yes.
But
1862
Further Direct - Brody
1
A.
that.
No.
You can't do
10
Q.
11
12
13
asbestos?
14
A.
15
Q.
16
A.
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
Q.
24
25
next?
Yes.
I don't
I really don't
1863
Further Direct - Brody
1
A.
range.
Q.
correct?
A.
That's right.
10
Q.
11
12
potent fiber?
13
A.
14
basis.
15
16
say.
17
18
19
20
21
22
think.
23
Q.
24
25
Okay.
The issue of
1864
Further Direct - Brody
1
A.
Not at all.
Q.
and say it must have been the more potent fiber that
A.
Q.
Mesothelioma.
10
11
asbestos exposure?
12
A.
13
Thousands.
14
Q.
15
16
17
18
A.
19
20
Q.
21
22
23
24
25
A.
1865
Further Direct - Brody
1
Sure.
Q.
A.
Sure.
So, I mean,
10
11
Q.
12
13
14
15
16
17
A.
Yes.
18
Q.
19
20
asbestos-related tumor?
21
A.
22
23
Q.
24
25
No.
1866
Further Direct - Brody
1
A.
person's history.
Q.
A.
average.
Q.
10
11
12
A.
Well, of course.
13
Q.
14
15
disease develops.
16
A.
Right.
17
Q.
18
19
20
asbestos or not?
21
A.
22
Q.
23
24
25
ACC-3564.
1867
Cross - Brody
1
marked as ACC-3566.
MR. SCHACHTER:
MR. GEORGE:
THE COURT:
Okay.
It will be accepted.
THE COURT:
Okay.
Mr. Guy.
Sorry.
Offer that.
Mr. Schachter,
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. GUY:
10
Q.
11
12
Mr.
13
14
15
16
17
18
circles.
19
20
MR. GEORGE:
21
BY MR. GUY:
I represent
Happily, in
22
Q.
23
Chrysotile.
24
court?
25
A.
Sure.
Sure.
1868
Cross - Brody
1
Q.
Many times?
A.
Yes.
Q.
those issues?
A.
1974.
Q.
A.
A number of times.
Q.
Yes.
10
11
A.
12
Q.
13
14
15
A.
16
Q.
17
18
A.
Yes.
19
Q.
He testified earlier.
20
testimony?
21
A.
No.
22
Q.
23
24
Mesothelioma?
25
A.
Some of them.
Yes.
No.
1869
Cross - Brody
1
Q.
that statement?
A.
No.
Q.
A.
10
11
those debates.
12
13
present a paper.
14
15
Q.
16
A.
There is a debate.
17
Q.
Sure.
18
THE COURT:
19
20
Thank you.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
21
BY MR. SCHACHTER:
22
Q.
23
A.
Good afternoon.
24
Q.
Is this working?
25
A.
Yes.
Fine.
1870
Cross - Brody
1
Q.
Do you understand
that?
A.
Sure.
Q.
Okay.
10
11
12
13
14
sir?
15
A.
16
17
Q.
Okay.
18
A.
19
about it.
20
Q.
21
22
A.
Of course.
23
Q.
24
A.
Exactly.
25
So if
1871
Cross - Brody
1
Q.
Thank you.
said.
And I apologize.
A.
That's right.
Q.
right?
10
A.
11
disproven.
12
Q.
13
14
15
A.
Yes.
16
Q.
17
18
19
other levels.
20
A.
True.
21
Q.
22
23
24
25
A.
Sure.
Okay.
Correct?
Is that correct?
That's
1872
Cross - Brody
1
correct.
Q.
math about total fibers over years and what that may
mean.
A.
True.
Q.
All right.
They look
10
11
12
13
14
A.
I agree.
15
Q.
16
17
18
19
A.
Right.
20
Q.
21
22
right?
23
A.
24
25
Q.
No.
And
Correct?
Are
It's an
1873
Cross - Brody
1
studied.
A.
No.
Q.
A.
As I explained.
Q.
Yeah.
correct?
A.
Right.
10
Q.
11
12
A.
13
Q.
14
15
A.
16
day a week for eight weeks and then looked a year later.
17
18
Q.
19
20
A.
Sure.
21
Q.
Okay.
22
23
24
A.
Correct.
25
Q.
Right.
Sometimes
As long as a year?
Okay.
1874
Cross - Brody
1
A.
Right.
Q.
A.
Correct.
Q.
10
11
A.
True.
12
Q.
13
per cc for one hour would likely not look like that with
14
15
Correct?
16
A.
I agree.
17
Q.
18
19
A.
True.
20
Q.
21
A.
That's right.
22
Q.
Okay.
23
24
Correct?
25
A.
1875
Cross - Brody
1
not.
Q.
A.
10
11
12
ten fibers or one fiber per cc, just not as many fibers.
13
14
Q.
15
16
correct?
17
A.
Right.
18
Q.
19
20
21
A.
22
think.
23
particles."
24
25
The fibers
1876
Cross - Brody
1
Q.
at Stanford university.
A.
Sure.
Q.
impressive credentials.
Okay.
10
11
A.
Of course not.
12
Q.
Of course not.
13
14
15
16
readily.
17
A.
18
19
about.
20
Q.
21
asked you, "If they tumble, they can't get through that
22
hole?"
23
obstructed."
24
A.
That's fine.
25
Q.
Okay.
I'm sorry.
Okay.
That's
1877
Cross - Brody
1
A.
That's fine.
Q.
-- scientific disagreement.
administered.
A.
Yes.
Q.
A.
Right.
Q.
10
11
12
peritoneum, usually?
13
A.
14
15
Q.
16
17
correct?
18
A.
Correct.
19
Q.
20
disease; correct?
21
A.
Correct.
22
Q.
23
Mesothelioma.
24
A.
That's right.
25
Q.
Correct?
1878
Cross - Brody
1
A.
Right.
Q.
A.
Q.
Okay.
A.
That's right.
Q.
10
A.
Right.
11
Q.
12
13
14
A.
15
16
17
mechanisms of a disease?
18
about.
19
Q.
20
21
22
23
24
A.
25
Correct?
But, I
Sure.
Okay.
On
1879
Cross - Brody
1
disease.
required.
Q.
10
11
MR. GEORGE:
12
13
are.
14
BY MR. SCHACHTER:
15
Q.
16
17
18
19
20
issue.
21
A.
22
Now are you asking, can you draw from the conclusion --
23
24
25
If
1880
Cross - Brody
1
Q.
Okay.
10
11
A.
12
Q.
13
14
A.
15
Q.
16
A.
17
Q.
Okay.
18
Your Honor?
Maybe it was.
19
THE COURT:
20
BY MR. SCHACHTER:
Yes.
Yes.
21
Q.
22
baboons?
23
A.
Yes, it was.
24
Q.
Baboons or monkeys?
25
A.
They're primates.
That's fine.
Was it
1881
Cross - Brody
1
Q.
Okay.
A.
Right.
Q.
A.
Right.
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
In 2008.
10
11
12
in animals.
13
A.
14
Q.
Thank you.
15
A.
16
17
18
Q.
Yeah.
19
A.
Yeah.
20
that's true.
21
22
23
scars, I'm not even sure how he was able to draw any
24
25
Correct?
So, yeah.
I looked at
1882
Cross - Brody
1
Q.
were published?
A.
Q.
Right.
Have you
10
11
12
A.
No.
13
Q.
Thank you.
14
A.
I do not.
15
16
17
Q.
18
A.
19
20
21
from them.
22
23
Q.
24
25
1883
Cross - Brody
1
A.
I'm sorry.
asking me about?
Q.
rats.
Mesothelioma?
A.
mean, the studies that Dr. Wagner did did not use
10
11
Q.
12
13
14
A.
15
16
17
Q.
18
19
20
A.
21
Q.
22
23
24
A.
Yes.
25
Q.
1884
Cross - Brody
1
A.
No.
Q.
A.
Okay.
So
10
Q.
11
dish; right?
12
A.
13
14
15
number of others.
16
Q.
17
18
19
A.
20
to Mr.
21
22
23
Q.
24
25
question; correct?
Wrong.
Okay?
Wrong.
Because Mesothelioma is a
We know a lot
That is true.
1885
Cross - Brody
1
A.
Correct.
Q.
A.
sorry.
Q.
I'm sorry.
A
I'm
10
Remember that
11
conference?
12
A.
Yes.
13
Q.
All right.
14
15
that correct?
16
17
18
correct?
19
A.
Yes.
20
Q.
21
A.
22
Yeah.
23
A.
Sure.
24
Q.
25
1886
Cross - Brody
1
A.
Right.
Q.
And it is correct.
unknown; correct?
A.
I agree.
Q.
That's correct.
Yes, sir.
10
11
it to the pleura.
12
A.
Right.
13
Q.
14
issue.
15
16
17
A.
Yeah.
18
Q.
19
20
21
A.
It is.
22
Q.
23
24
25
layers of skin.
Correct?
That's true.
1887
Cross - Brody
1
description?
A.
That's fine.
Q.
Sure.
right?
A.
Right.
Q.
A.
I described that.
Yes.
10
I believe.
11
12
Q.
13
14
15
16
17
A.
Yes.
18
Q.
19
20
21
A.
22
23
24
Q.
25
Yeah.
Okay.
Correct?
1888
Cross - Brody
1
correct?
A.
Right.
Q.
A.
Right.
Q.
systems; correct?
A.
They are.
10
Q.
11
A.
Sure.
12
Q.
13
correct?
14
A.
15
water system.
16
17
18
Q.
19
20
without attribution?
21
A.
22
Q.
23
24
25
those.
They're ingested.
They're ingested.
They're ingested.
No one -- I can't
Correct?
And that
1889
Cross - Brody
1
A.
Q.
Sure.
fibers can pass through the pleura and exit through the
lymphatic system.
10
A.
No, I agree.
11
Q.
12
13
14
A.
True.
15
Q.
All right.
16
17
A.
18
Q.
19
20
21
A.
22
23
to find an effect.
24
Q.
25
A.
No.
Yes.
Because a threshold
1890
Cross - Brody
1
Q.
Let me repeat
the question.
crocidolite or Amosite?
A.
Q.
10
A.
11
Q.
12
Chrysotile; right?
13
A.
14
different."
15
Q.
16
17
18
19
20
A.
21
22
23
24
Q.
25
I'm sorry.
Sure.
Correct?
And you
Do you
1891
Cross - Brody
1
water usually?
A.
Q.
Yeah.
processes; correct?
A.
I think so.
Q.
Okay.
Yes.
10
11
A.
12
13
14
question.
15
Q.
16
17
18
19
A.
That's fine.
20
Q.
21
A.
Yeah, I agree.
22
Q.
Sure.
23
24
25
years ago.
Okay.
And I guess
That's fine.
1892
Cross - Brody
1
A.
Yes.
Q.
A.
Q.
10
11
inference.
12
A.
No.
13
Q.
14
15
called it plausibility.
16
17
A.
18
19
Q.
20
21
22
right?
23
A.
Right.
24
Q.
25
1893
Cross - Brody
1
A.
Right.
Q.
All right.
A.
Sure.
Q.
A.
I'm sure.
10
pleura.
11
Q.
12
13
14
15
16
A.
17
18
Q.
19
A.
I'm sorry.
20
Q.
Go ahead.
21
A.
22
23
24
25
Mesotheliomas.
Well, yes.
You
In
We
1894
Cross - Brody
1
Q.
right?
A.
Q.
10
A.
Right.
11
Q.
12
13
14
15
16
right?
17
A.
Yes.
18
Q.
You would agree that the acid test of who gets the
19
20
Right?
21
A.
Yes.
22
Q.
23
24
A.
Right.
25
Q.
So whatever theories we
1895
Cross - Brody
1
criteria.
Q.
you.
MR. GEORGE:
George read to
criteria.
10
11
THE COURT:
12
BY MR. SCHACHTER:
Sir, Mr.
All right.
13
Q.
14
15
it was in 1965.
16
17
A.
Yeah.
18
Q.
Okay.
19
20
criteria.
21
A.
Right.
22
Q.
23
24
25
Correct?
Correct?
1896
Cross - Brody
1
A.
Yes.
Q.
chance.
interpretation of it is causation?
10
11
A.
Right.
12
Q.
Okay.
13
14
15
saying, okay.
16
17
chance.
18
A.
19
Q.
20
21
22
statistically significant.
23
A.
24
25
Correct?
But,
So
1897
Cross - Brody
1
the time.
Q.
says.
10
11
I believe
So he's
MR. GEORGE:
12
BY MR. SCHACHTER:
13
Q.
I apologize.
14
works.
15
16
17
Correct?
18
A.
I agree.
19
Q.
Okay.
20
21
Amphiboles.
22
A.
Yes.
23
Q.
24
A.
Yes.
25
Q.
Correct?
1898
Cross - Brody
1
A.
Correct.
Q.
are.
A.
Q.
A.
Correct.
Q.
completely different.
It's curly, as
Yes.
10
Right?
11
A.
True.
12
Q.
13
14
A.
Yes.
15
Q.
And that was the famous Dr. Wagner who in 1960 had
16
17
18
A.
Right.
19
Q.
20
21
Mesothelioma; right?
22
A.
True.
23
Q.
All right.
24
25
You
Right?
1899
Cross - Brody
1
A.
Correct.
Q.
rings).
It's off.
THE COURT:
I apologize.
That's okay.
10
THE WITNESS:
Where was I?
11
BY MR. SCHACHTER:
Okay.
12
Q.
13
14
15
A.
16
17
18
19
did so.
20
why.
21
Q.
Okay.
22
A.
Yeah, right.
23
24
Q.
25
A.
Right.
Yeah.
Right.
Right?
So, you know, one could guess, but I'm not sure
1900
Cross - Brody
1
Q.
asbestos litigation.
A.
Q.
A.
Mesothelioma.
No.
Correct?
Yes.
10
Q.
11
that, sir.
12
A.
13
That's fine.
14
Q.
15
16
A.
Right.
17
Q.
18
19
Diseases.
20
A.
Yes.
21
Q.
22
A.
Sure.
23
Q.
24
A.
He was.
25
Q.
Right?
All right.
Correct?
Yes.
1901
Cross - Brody
1
A.
Q.
All right.
fiber per cc miners, and I'm sure we'll hear more about
mining populations.
Right?
10
Correct?
11
A.
12
13
14
15
Q.
16
reports.
17
18
19
20
Correct?
21
A.
22
23
24
Q.
25
record.
I would, as a general
I mean that's where
No.
"Only occurs?"
1902
Cross - Brody
1
come.
Right?
A.
Exactly.
Q.
10
11
12
A.
Yes.
13
Q.
14
15
16
17
18
A.
19
right.
20
Q.
21
22
23
24
25
A.
Right?
Right?
Yes.
Correct?
That's
There
1903
Cross - Brody
1
Q.
10
exposure is shown.
11
12
13
three a day.
14
A.
15
16
17
MR. GEORGE:
I think it's
I have no idea
foundation.
18
THE WITNESS:
19
MR. GEORGE:
20
BY MR. SCHACHTER:
Yeah.
21
Q.
22
23
fiber basis.
Correct?
24
A.
25
Okay.
It's
1904
Cross - Brody
1
100 times.
Q.
Okay.
A.
Q.
Thank you.
A.
10
Q.
2006.
11
12
13
14
litigation; right?
15
A.
Mostly, yes.
16
Q.
All right.
17
of 2006.
18
number.
19
others.
20
it wasn't me.
21
was my number.
22
opinion?
23
24
25
A.
Okay.
That's fine.
Correct?
Right?
The
1905
Cross - Brody
1
amosite.
those numbers.
Q.
good number.
10
A.
I'm sorry.
I said?
11
Q.
Huh?
12
A.
I'm sorry.
13
Q.
Just a second.
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
Darnton --
21
A.
22
23
Q.
Here?
24
A.
No.
25
see it.
This
Isn't it true
And
"Okay.
All I'm
1906
Cross - Brody
1
Q.
(Indicating.)
A.
fiber-per-fiber bases.
Next page.
That is fine.
10
11
12
On a
It
That's all I
13
14
15
16
Q.
17
18
A.
19
numbers?
20
Q.
21
A.
22
23
24
Q.
25
Okay.
Please go ahead.
It's no better
1907
Cross - Brody
1
Mesothelioma?
A.
Yes.
Q.
A.
Q.
Yes.
10
11
12
13
14
insulation; correct?
15
A.
16
17
Q.
18
19
20
21
22
Correct?
23
A.
24
25
Q.
All right.
As a
Sure.
But I can't
1908
Redirect - Brody
1
A.
You're welcome.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. GEORGE:
Q.
10
But the
11
12
correct?
13
A.
14
15
were a mess.
16
Q.
17
months.
18
19
group by 24 months.
20
A.
Right.
21
Q.
22
23
24
A.
Right.
25
Q.
1909
Redirect - Brody
1
A.
Right.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
We don't.
Q.
10
11
12
A.
Yes.
13
Q.
14
A.
15
16
17
Q.
18
19
Chrysotile?
20
A.
21
22
disease.
23
Q.
24
25
quite small.
Do
But, obviously,
1910
Redirect - Brody
1
A.
Right.
Q.
Chrysotile.
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
human exposures.
18
19
20
A.
Sure.
21
Q.
22
23
24
25
1911
Redirect - Brody
1
develop Mesothelioma?
A.
Sure.
Q.
True?
A.
Sure.
Q.
10
11
12
A.
Sure.
13
Q.
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
A.
Yes.
21
Q.
22
about iron.
23
24
25
A.
Yes.
Correct?
1912
Redirect - Brody
1
Q.
overload.
A.
that.
10
11
12
13
14
as a carcinogen.
15
16
17
process.
18
Q.
19
20
21
A.
Yes.
22
Q.
23
24
of significance.
25
A.
And
It accumulates
Yes.
And you
1913
Redirect - Brody
1
Q.
effects.
A.
No.
10
Q.
11
12
13
A.
Yes.
14
Q.
15
A.
Yes.
16
Q.
17
18
19
a factor of ten.
20
A.
Yes.
21
Q.
22
23
24
potency?
25
A.
Right.
Is that right?
1914
Recross - Brody
1
isn't.
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
RECROSS EXAMINATION
7
8
BY MR. SCHACHTER:
Q.
10
A.
I'm sorry?
11
Q.
12
there.
13
A.
14
you mean?
15
Q.
16
A.
Yes.
17
Q.
18
did was they said that the data in Loomis varied by, from
19
20
A.
21
22
Q.
23
24
correct?
25
A.
I don't remember.
Correct?
But if that's
1915
Recross - Brody
1
Q.
All right.
A.
You're welcome.
THE COURT:
THE COURT:
Thank you.
back at 3:30?
8
9
Okay.
6
7
10
see Mr.
11
12
13
MR. MOON:
14
THE COURT:
15
16
17
18
19
hearing.
Okay?
Thank you.
Be back at 3:30.
20
21
22
23
24
25
THE COURT:
Have a seat.
Let's go on to whatever
is next.
MR. FROST:
Brodkin.
1916
Direct - Brodkin
1
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. FROST:
Q.
A.
B-R-O-D-K-I-N.
Q.
A.
C-A-R-L.
A-N-D-R-E-W.
10
11
Q.
12
13
Medicine?
14
A.
15
16
17
for fellowship.
18
19
THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
Yes.
Organic
22
BY MR. FROST:
23
Q.
24
we're lawyers.
25
20
21
1917
Direct - Brodkin
1
A.
bachelor's degree.
school.
Q.
A.
10
Q.
11
12
13
14
A.
15
16
17
Q.
18
19
20
A.
21
22
physicians.
23
24
25
Yes.
I think you
Have you ever
1918
Direct - Brodkin
1
Q.
Medicine?
A.
Q.
Center.
A.
Yes.
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
than 17 years.
19
Q.
20
past?
21
A.
22
participate in lectures.
23
24
25
safety issues.
It
I have.
1919
Direct - Brodkin
1
Q.
of people?
A.
shipyard industry.
shipyard industry.
Yes.
10
11
12
pipefitters.
13
Q.
14
CARET study.
15
A.
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Of those 4,000
The
1920
Direct - Brodkin
1
rates.
them.
Q.
of this group?
A.
They were.
10
11
12
13
Q.
14
even insulators?
15
A.
Oh, yes.
16
Q.
17
18
A.
19
20
21
Q.
22
of Mesothelioma."
23
24
A.
25
the 4,000.
Yes.
So, among
1921
Direct - Brodkin
1
Q.
I'm sorry?
A.
Mesotheliomas.
population.
percent.
Q.
10
A.
11
Q.
Okay.
12
13
14
15
A.
16
17
18
19
Q.
20
21
22
Correct?
23
A.
24
25
Yes.
There were
So, over one
But
That's correct.
Most of my 50 -- approximately 40
1922
Direct - Brodkin
1
Q.
one also related to the CARET study, the one with Harvey
Checkoway?
A.
exposed workers.
Q.
on asbestos.
Yes.
Was this
10
literature.
11
A.
That's correct.
12
Q.
13
concerning asbestos.
14
15
A.
16
17
18
Q.
19
20
21
area?
22
A.
23
24
25
It is.
Correct?
Yes.
Yes.
1923
Direct - Brodkin
1
Q.
this thick.
Yes.
And I
It's about
10
A.
11
12
Q.
13
14
15
A.
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
Q.
23
24
25
Yes.
What have
But
1924
Direct - Brodkin
1
A.
Yes.
committees.
plaques.
10
11
Q.
12
13
14
15
16
A.
17
18
diagnose asbestosis.
19
Q.
20
committee?
21
A.
That's correct.
22
Q.
23
24
25
That's correct.
1925
Direct - Brodkin
1
A.
10
11
12
13
Q.
14
15
Environmental Medicine?
16
A.
17
18
19
20
years.
21
Q.
22
A.
23
24
25
1926
Direct - Brodkin
1
in the field.
Q.
M. SCHACHTER:
THE COURT:
All right.
MR. FROST:
And occupational.
THE COURT:
And occupational?
M. SCHACHTER:
10
THE COURT:
11
BY MR. FROST:
Okay.
No objection.
He will be accepted.
12
Q.
13
hour?
14
A.
15
16
Q.
17
18
A.
19
Q.
20
21
A.
22
23
Q.
24
with Mr.
25
Okay.
1927
Direct - Brodkin
1
A.
Q.
years?
A.
It is.
10
11
12
related illness.
13
14
15
16
Q.
17
18
document?
19
A.
20
21
Q.
22
school?
23
A.
24
25
I am.
Yes.
1928
Direct - Brodkin
1
Q.
Mr.
Templin
other areas.
asbestos products?
A.
He and I
10
11
had asbestosis.
12
13
14
areas.
15
those recommendations.
16
Q.
17
18
A.
19
20
21
22
material.
23
Q.
24
Mr.
25
And did they talk about any end products that were
1929
Direct - Brodkin
1
A.
recommendations in 1932.
industrial processes.
Q.
10
11
A.
12
13
14
15
16
Q.
17
1935.
18
correct?
19
A.
Yes.
20
Q.
21
22
23
24
A.
25
It did.
1930
Direct - Brodkin
1
of asbestosis.
It would also
10
11
Q.
12
13
A.
That's true.
14
Q.
15
16
17
18
thick.
19
20
Garlock documents.
21
A.
22
23
24
Q.
25
A.
That's correct.
Yes.
Yes.
It's over
Yes.
1931
Direct - Brodkin
1
Q.
book?
A.
It is.
Was that
10
products.
11
Q.
12
13
A.
14
15
16
17
18
Q.
19
20
21
A.
22
23
24
25
Q.
Yes.
Was
1932
Direct - Brodkin
1
A.
again.
significant.
Yes.
10
Q.
11
dealing with?
12
A.
13
Chrysotile.
14
Q.
15
16
17
A.
18
19
Q.
20
21
asbestos exposure?
22
A.
23
24
25
Q.
Yes.
Okay.
Yes.
Okay.
How is that
1933
Direct - Brodkin
1
A.
10
11
12
Q.
13
14
15
A.
16
17
Q.
18
19
20
Price, there are other articles that deal with what was
21
22
23
Correct?
24
A.
25
are hundreds.
Yes.
Two of the
Oh, certainly.
1934
Direct - Brodkin
1
that knowledge.
Q.
and packing and what was known about those, except for
the Doll case or the Doll paper and the Wagner paper.
Correct?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Okay.
In 1964, did he
10
11
12
13
A.
14
conference.
15
16
17
18
19
20
Mesothelioma.
21
Q.
22
23
about insulators?
24
A.
25
Yes.
But Hueper
Not at all.
1935
Direct - Brodkin
1
research.
range of materials.
Q.
Okay?
10
A.
Certainly.
11
Q.
12
13
14
A.
15
16
17
18
19
like Mesothelioma.
20
21
22
23
24
occupational history.
25
Yes.
1936
Direct - Brodkin
1
And
Q.
A.
occupational medicine.
It is.
10
Q.
11
12
13
14
15
A.
16
17
18
19
Q.
20
21
22
A.
23
24
25
Occupational Medicine.
I have.
Yes.
1937
Direct - Brodkin
1
textbook.
identifies exposures.
occupational history.
Q.
10
11
A.
Certainly.
12
Q.
Okay.
13
history.
14
15
16
occupational history?
17
A.
18
19
20
the source.
21
asbestos-containing material.
22
23
exposure.
24
25
respirable or breathable.
1938
Direct - Brodkin
1
defenses.
fibers.
Q.
10
11
and numbers.
12
correct?
13
A.
14
Q.
15
16
type of numbers?
17
A.
18
19
20
21
Q.
22
23
24
25
Certainly.
These are
Even if we
1939
Direct - Brodkin
1
A.
is performed.
history.
Yes.
10
11
exposure.
12
13
Q.
14
15
16
A.
17
18
19
20
whole range.
21
Q.
22
23
24
A.
25
That's true.
Yes.
1940
Direct - Brodkin
1
be asbestos-containing gaskets.
Q.
Garlock gaskets?
A.
Q.
content in them?
A.
Q.
10
A.
11
12
range.
13
Q.
14
15
16
17
A.
18
19
20
21
22
to fabricate gaskets.
23
24
25
tools.
Yes.
Some
1941
Direct - Brodkin
1
Q.
problem?
A.
Q.
If it's
10
bio-available?
11
A.
12
13
14
15
16
Q.
17
18
statements.
19
also draw?
20
A.
21
22
23
24
25
Either during
Just the
1942
Direct - Brodkin
1
workers.
important distinction.
Q.
background.
10
11
12
13
14
15
A.
16
17
mean bystanders.
18
19
20
air we breathe.
21
22
ambient levels.
23
24
25
Q.
1943
Direct - Brodkin
1
literature?
A.
That's true.
Q.
A.
Yes.
Can you
10
11
12
of the body.
13
Q.
14
A.
15
16
17
The greater the dose, the greater the risk for disease.
18
19
work with gaskets and packing that can be, you know, less
20
21
22
23
24
25
1944
Direct - Brodkin
1
significant.
Q.
looking at?
What are we
10
A.
11
12
13
14
15
16
range.
17
Q.
18
19
20
21
A.
22
23
24
25
No.
So, they
1945
Direct - Brodkin
1
Q.
A.
crocidolite world.
commercially used.
You couldn't.
So
10
11
Q.
12
13
14
15
A.
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Mesothelioma.
It
1946
Direct - Brodkin
1
Q.
literature; correct?
A.
So
10
Q.
11
12
13
A.
14
15
necessary.
16
Q.
17
18
19
20
exposure?
21
A.
22
23
24
25
that process.
Yes.
All right.
1947
Direct - Brodkin
1
Q.
And did they talk about how much history you need
A.
Q.
10
literature; correct?
11
A.
12
Q.
13
14
15
A.
16
17
Q.
18
19
20
21
as occupationally related.
22
with?
23
A.
24
25
occupational history.
Certainly.
It is.
I certainly
1948
Direct - Brodkin
1
disease.
Q.
is required.
A.
That's correct.
Q.
asbestos?
10
A.
Certainly.
Yes.
11
Q.
12
13
14
15
not?
16
A.
17
18
19
20
exposures.
21
22
23
24
25
None of them
1949
Direct - Brodkin
1
Q.
A.
10
11
12
13
Q.
14
which.
15
16
asbestos.
17
A.
18
19
20
21
there is a threshold.
22
23
Q.
24
25
Correct?
1950
Direct - Brodkin
1
A.
Q.
10
11
12
with?
13
A.
14
15
16
Q.
17
18
19
20
A.
21
22
23
24
Mesothelioma.
25
Yes.
Yes.
1951
Direct - Brodkin
1
and make sure there are no other rare risk factors for
Mesothelioma.
Q.
packing; correct?
Okay.
10
A.
Yes.
11
Q.
12
13
14
15
16
17
A.
18
causation.
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Yes.
1952
Direct - Brodkin
1
earlier.
There
10
analogy.
11
12
Q.
13
versus causal.
14
15
16
17
A.
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
well.
25
Q.
Certainly epidemiology
You
1953
Direct - Brodkin
1
A.
Q.
That's true.
Okay.
But
10
11
A.
12
13
14
contamination.
15
16
17
18
settings.
19
Q.
20
21
does that mean and how does that relate to this issue?
22
A.
23
epidemiology.
24
25
1954
Direct - Brodkin
1
percent.
These are
10
11
Q.
12
13
correct?
14
A.
15
16
17
18
19
training.
20
Q.
21
on quickly.
22
23
A.
24
25
Yes.
Yes.
1955
Direct - Brodkin
1
Q.
looking at the ones that are 400 to, I think you said,
A.
Correct.
THE COURT:
No.
BY MR. FROST:
Percent.
Q.
Percent.
I'm sorry.
A.
Yes.
Q.
3,300 percent.
10
11
A.
12
13
disease.
14
that gives you the rate of disease that you can compare
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
Q.
22
a relative risk.
23
that right?
24
A.
25
There are.
True.
1956
Direct - Brodkin
1
Q.
A.
And also
10
11
areas.
12
MR. SCHACHTER:
13
14
15
copy.
16
17
it.
THE COURT:
MR. FROST:
24
25
22
23
20
21
The
18
19
If
THE WITNESS:
report.
MR. SCHACHTER:
I don't mean to
1957
Direct - Brodkin
1
2
3
MR. FROST:
THE WITNESS:
MR. FROST:
THE WITNESS:
Excuse me?
Grab your list.
Wang and Lin is reference 807 in the
first report.
MR. SCHACHTER:
MR. FROST:
10
Is there another?
Okay.
I was wrong.
11
MR. SCHACHTER:
12
MR. FROST:
13
MR. SCHACHTER:
14
THE COURT:
15
THE WITNESS:
16
That's fine.
Yeah.
Is it okay to continue?
I would like a copy of Becklake.
All right.
Yeah.
Let's go ahead.
I'll -- on a break or
17
BY MR. FROST:
18
Q.
Okay.
Great.
19
20
21
22
highlights.
23
of Chrysotile asbestos?
24
A.
25
consistency.
1958
Direct - Brodkin
1
Q.
couple of times.
Does
10
11
A.
12
13
14
15
Chrysotile.
16
Chrysotile is used.
17
One is looking at
18
19
20
21
22
23
Tremolite.
24
25
Such as in the
1959
Direct - Brodkin
1
that mineralogically.
exposure.
In
10
I don't make
11
12
13
Q.
14
15
16
A.
17
18
19
20
21
Q.
22
23
24
25
A.
They have.
That
1960
Direct - Brodkin
1
their research.
to Mesothelioma.
They
10
Q.
What
11
12
Bradford-Hill criteria?
13
A.
14
criteria to latency.
15
16
17
similar.
18
19
20
21
Q.
22
23
24
A.
25
Yes.
1961
Direct - Brodkin
1
well.
Q.
A.
disease.
general.
Dose-response.
What are we
10
11
12
13
14
important evidence.
15
So that's
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
Q.
24
25
1962
Direct - Brodkin
1
"translocate?"
A.
fiber to get from the lung out to the pleura via the
lymphatic channels.
Q.
Amosite?
10
tissue.
11
12
Mesothelioma?
13
A.
14
lung tissue.
15
16
lung tissue.
17
sensitive way.
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
concentrations would.
25
1963
Direct - Brodkin
1
Q.
A.
again such that it will not persist in the lung for those
periods.
10
Q.
11
other places?
12
somewhere; right?
13
A.
14
15
Q.
16
17
A.
18
concentrations.
19
pleura tissue.
20
21
22
23
24
25
Yes.
But
1964
Direct - Brodkin
1
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
pleural Mesothelioma.
Mesothelioma?
A.
Mesothelioma.
Yes.
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
Q.
17
A.
It can as well.
18
19
20
21
22
Q.
23
24
25
The serosal
Usually,
1965
Direct - Brodkin
1
A.
And
Q.
But as the
10
being?
11
A.
12
13
14
lungs.
15
16
17
cellophane-like membrane.
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
Q.
25
down.
This is both
That thickness
1966
Direct - Brodkin
1
lung all the way around here, and then this is the tumor?
A.
That's correct.
Q.
A.
of the tumor.
Yes.
10
Q.
11
A.
12
13
Q.
14
the tumor?
15
A.
16
lung.
17
Q.
18
19
A.
20
21
becomes thicker.
22
Q.
23
A.
24
25
And
1967
Direct - Brodkin
1
Q.
A.
lung.
Q.
victims?
A.
Q.
10
11
12
Chrysotile?
13
A.
14
15
is used.
16
17
18
response.
19
20
than that.
21
Q.
22
23
24
25
1968
Direct - Brodkin
1
A.
Correct.
Q.
at that issue?
A.
plant workers.
10
Q.
11
plant is.
12
and point out and find as you went farther and away from
13
14
A.
Correct.
15
Q.
16
17
18
about dose-response?
19
A.
20
21
22
23
24
25
I don't know if we
But what's the
Certainly, the
1969
Direct - Brodkin
1
Q.
A.
Yes.
10
11
12
13
So
14
15
16
17
18
Q.
19
consistency?
20
Sir Bradford-Hill?
21
A.
22
epidemiologic data.
23
24
25
About a
How about
1970
Direct - Brodkin
1
direction.
Q.
A.
Mesothelioma.
How do we
And
10
Q.
11
12
13
human carcinogen?
14
A.
15
16
17
18
19
20
Q.
21
22
23
A.
24
25
Q.
It is.
So that is each of
Yes.
How does
1971
Direct - Brodkin
1
concerning that?
A.
Mesothelioma.
Rarely, therapeutic
10
11
12
13
Q.
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
A.
21
22
23
24
Q.
25
If an
Now
1972
Direct - Brodkin
1
A.
Q.
Okay.
A.
Yes.
Besides Mesothelioma
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
asbestos.
17
Q.
18
19
A.
That's correct.
20
Q.
21
22
23
A.
24
25
So, as a
But that
Yes.
1973
Direct - Brodkin
1
Q.
analysis?
A.
diseases.
fiber types.
10
11
12
13
14
Mesothelioma.
15
16
17
diseases.
18
Q.
19
20
21
22
overprotective of workers.
23
24
25
organizations?
So by
1974
Direct - Brodkin
1
A.
And
Physicians
So I
10
11
12
of feasibility of application.
13
14
15
16
Q.
17
18
A.
19
field.
20
21
22
23
Q.
24
Cancer.
25
Yes.
The
1975
Direct - Brodkin
1
correct?
5
6
MR. SCHACHTER:
He can't
7
8
MR. FROST:
BY MR. FROST:
10
Q.
11
12
bad.
13
14
A.
15
16
17
18
carcinogenic.
19
commercial fibers.
20
rigorous process.
21
22
analyses.
23
Q.
24
date.
25
Yes.
1976
Direct - Brodkin
1
mind.
A.
That's true.
Q.
Okay.
criteria.
exactly what you and I did where they take the Sir
asbestos?
A.
Yes.
Yes.
I mean, here is a
10
11
Q.
12
13
A.
14
Q.
15
A.
Yes.
16
Q.
17
18
19
A.
20
Yes.
21
Q.
22
23
A.
24
25
Q.
I am aware of that.
Okay.
1977
Direct - Brodkin
1
A.
Yes.
Q.
packing?
A.
Chrysotile materials.
Certainly.
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
Q.
21
22
23
24
25
There is
Is there any
1978
Direct - Brodkin
1
zone of workers?
A.
10
fiber.
11
Q.
12
A.
It is the fiber.
13
effect.
14
15
point.
16
17
Q.
18
19
20
21
gasket?
22
A.
23
the activity.
24
talked about them for gaskets from less than a fiber per
25
It
No.
We've
1979
Direct - Brodkin
1
insulation.
It can
rip-outs of ships.
Q.
10
11
12
13
A.
Yes.
14
Q.
15
been found?
16
A.
Yes.
17
this.
18
cases of Mesothelioma.
19
20
21
22
23
24
as well.
25
And
1980
Direct - Brodkin
1
percent.
Q.
A.
That's a rate of .5
Right.
10
Q.
11
12
13
A.
14
15
16
17
Q.
18
19
A.
20
21
22
23
24
25
Is it possible to design
You can't
The same
1981
Direct - Brodkin
1
One has to
workers.
Q.
10
A.
11
12
13
14
Q.
15
16
17
18
19
that?
20
A.
21
Q.
22
23
24
A.
25
No.
No.
The gasket
Yes.
But
Boelter
Have you
1982
Direct - Brodkin
1
gaskets.
Bradford-Hill criteria.
10
11
12
13
14
15
Q.
16
17
A.
18
19
Q.
20
21
22
A.
23
24
Q.
25
It's very
It's a large
1983
Direct - Brodkin
1
looked at?
A.
heating trades.
Q.
10
A.
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
registry of Rodelsperger.
23
Q.
24
25
Machinists have to
1984
Direct - Brodkin
1
A.
them.
and packing.
Q.
It could
So those are
You've looked
10
11
12
A.
13
14
15
16
exposure.
17
Q.
18
19
20
A.
Yes.
21
Q.
22
friable?
23
A.
24
25
But if it's
1985
Direct - Brodkin
1
fibers.
Q.
We've gone
10
A.
11
12
13
Q.
14
15
A.
16
17
spaces of vessels.
18
Q.
19
20
recognizes it?
21
A.
22
23
24
25
Right.
And the
1986
Direct - Brodkin
1
Q.
for exposure?
A.
Yes.
So there
10
11
12
derived from them, are not bright line levels for safety.
13
14
15
16
OSHA has
17
18
19
20
21
22
thousand individuals.
23
level.
24
25
1987
Direct - Brodkin
1
Q.
cc level:
risk."
level; right?
A.
That's correct.
Q.
unsafe.
Yes.
10
11
asbestos levels.
12
A.
13
14
Q.
15
that article?
16
A.
17
Q.
18
19
20
A.
21
22
1950s.
23
Q.
24
25
A.
Yes.
Yes.
And earlier.
That's
So it's not just OSHA and the EPA that says this
Yes.
1988
Direct - Brodkin
1
Q.
A.
issue.
Is that
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
including Mesothelioma.
17
When
18
19
20
21
in causing Mesothelioma.
22
23
24
25
I don't
1989
Direct - Brodkin
1
Q.
Correct?
10
A.
11
12
13
that statement.
14
epidemiological literature.
15
Q.
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
A.
23
24
25
I agree with
1990
Direct - Brodkin
1
It is a well
Q.
case; correct?
A.
That's true.
Q.
possibility?
10
A.
Yes.
11
Q.
12
13
14
15
into evidence.
16
MR. SCHACHTER:
17
18
that we've looked for and it's not in his references and
19
20
Otherwise --
21
MR. FROST:
That's a study
And if
22
23
24
25
THE COURT:
All right.
1991
Direct - Brodkin
1
it.
2
3
MR. FROST:
witness.
4
5
MR. SCHACHTER:
For clarification.
MR. FROST:
and the rest are the way we've offered all the other
materials.
9
10
THE COURT:
11
12
MR. GUY:
an hour.
13
(Laughter.)
14
THE COURT:
15
MR. GUY:
16
THE COURT:
I won't be here.
17
(Laughter.)
18
CROSS-EXAMINATION
19
BY MR. GUY:
20
Q.
21
22
new whip.
23
24
25
1992
Direct - Brodkin
1
understood it.
A.
knowledge.
Q.
studies; correct?
A.
Yes.
Q.
10
A.
True.
11
Q.
12
13
14
15
A.
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
I mean,
So I think
I mean,
1993
Direct - Brodkin
1
testified to.
Q.
that there will be some study that would come out that
MR. SCHACHTER:
rank speculation.
THE COURT:
I think so.
This is
objection.
10
11
MR. GUY:
Thank
you.
12
THE COURT:
All right.
13
All right.
14
15
Thank you.
16
17
CERTIFICATE
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25