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isochronous and droop
Apr 28, 2007 5:26 pm, by new user
Subject : Engineering
from the gas turbines dept.
Text :
hi
I have one question regarding the operation of the gas turbines
in islanding mode. our gas turbine is not having the mode of the
isochronus selection. It is always connected to the grid and also
supplying power to the proces plant. However if the grid
breaker fails, then the machine will go to the islanding mode
and maintains the house load.
I understood the diff.between the modes but I wonder if the
machine is in islanding operation, what is the speed control
mode: isochronous or droop?
plz reply
new user
Reply
contact from the utility tie-line breaker to put the unit into
Isochronous Speed Control Mode--and, voila! Problem solved.
There is a fundamental difference between maintaining load,
and maintaining load AND maintaining frequency. Systems and
testing have to be designed to achieve desired results--the
system has to be capable of operation in the intended mode, and
the testing has to be capable of demonstrating desired operation.
When generators and their prime movers are operating in
parallel with other generators and their prime movers on an
electrical grid, the frequency of the grid--and all the generators
connected to the grid--is being controlled by some means
through a "central" control scheme. The individual generators
connected to the grid are NOT controlling their own speed, it's
being controlled by the "grid." So, when generators are
disconnected from the grid, something in the prime mover's
control system has to be enabled to allow the speed of the prime
mover--and the frequency of the generator--to be at rated and be
stable.
There seems to be some fundamental misunderstanding of speed
control--just because speed is controlled through acceleration to
FSNL (Full Speed-No Load) and synchronization--does NOT
mean it's controlled once the generator is connected to a grid in
parallel with other generators. The frequency of all generators
connected to a grid is the same--one 150 MW unit cannot
operate at a different frequency than 2000 MW of other
electrical generators, nor can it have an appreciable affect on the
frequency (unless the total capacity of all the generators is equal
to the load--in other words, all the prime movers/generators are
being operated at rated output and that output is equal to the
load; in that case, any small increase in generation will increase
frequency, and any small decrease in generation will decrease
frequency).
When a GE-design heavy duty gas turbine-generator is operated
on Droop Speed Control, the actual speed of the turbine is LESS
than the turbine speed reference. If the turbine speed reference
is 102% and the actual speed is 100%, the difference between
actual and reference is used to control the amount of fuel being
admitted to the turbine--and, hence, the power output of the
generator. BUT, the fuel is NOT being controlled to make the
actual turbine speed equal to the reference--because when the
generator is connected to the grid the speed is fixed by the
maintain the process load alone? How much would be the final
loading on each generator if the operator doesn't intervene?
Our aim is to calculate a safe export value so that in an event of
sudden disconnection we should still have our generators
connected and running. Hence it would be important to know
how much the frequency increases when a known export is
suddenly disrupted. That may help us reverse calculate and keep
the turbines humming during monsoon turbulences. Maybe we
can make an Excel spreadsheet for various safe-export values
vs. grid frequencies. Our process load is relatively constant.
Best regards,
abid
Reply
Re: isochronous and droop
May 20, 2007 2:43 pm, by markvguy
Describing Droop- and Isochronous Speed Control mode in
writing is very difficult, so If you have some understanding
from the above--that's great!
If the load-shedding PLC drives the units down to the loads at
which the frequency is at rated, then the operator has nothing to
do. The units will supply the process load at the rated frequency
as soon as he loading/unloading rate allows the total fuel to be
reduced to the amount required to maintain the process load at
rated frequency.
If you want a "bumpless" separation from the grid, the load
needs to be reduced to the amount that is equal to the process
load. If the load-shedding PLC drives the unit loads down to the
point at which the total of the four units is equal to the process
load (so that rated frequency is being maintained), then the
frequency will jump to a value greater than rated immediately
after the separation, then will be reduced to rated at the
unloading rate activated by the input if the units all remain in
Droop Speed Control mode.
If the loading/unloading rates of all the units are equal, it's likely
the two units on Preselect Load will shed equal amounts of load.
But, because of the way FSRN (Fuel Stroke Reference - Speed
Control) is maintained at a preset differential above FSRT (Fuel
Stroke Reference - Temperature Control) it will tank at least a
minute or three for the Base Load units to reduce TNR (Turbine
Speed Reference) to the point that load begins to decrease.
So, it's likely that the Preselect Load units will shed more load
than the Base Load units.
If all the units were on "float mode" (Part Load Droop Speed
Control mode) when the separation occurred, and the
loading/unloading rates of all four units were the same then they
would all shed load at the same rate (equally).
There are many consulting firms, in addition to GE, which can
analyze the conditions and predict response to transients such as
separation from the grid. It's just not possible to do it in a forum
such as this; there are too many variables and too much
information required to be able to do such a study via this
forum.
If you can understand how your load-shedding PLC works, and
the loading/unloading rates of the turbines, you can begin to
understand how the units will respond to a grid separation event.
If you need exact figures and timing, you need to commission a
study for finite details and predictions.
markvguy
Reply
Re: isochronous and droop
May 12, 2007 10:10 am, by Anonymous
If on a system with 4% Droop and turbine running in Preselect
Mode and trying to supply 50% load, it's likely that a difference
of 2% will be created between TNH and TNR.
If the load of 50%, for some reason (some condition in the field
like incorrect valve opening etc), is not "achieved" despite the
2% difference between TNH and TNR, then will the Preselect
load control increase the TNR (and hence the difference
between TNH and TNR) still further in an attempt to match the
load with Preselect Setting?
thanks
Reply
Re: isochronous and droop
May 18, 2007 1:06 am, by deepak
Can you tell me what TNH and TNR mean? And what
significance they have to preselect mode???
Reply
Re: isochronous and droop
May 18, 2007 10:27 pm, by Rahul P Sharma
Deepak,
TNH stands for Turbine instantaneous speed and TNR stands
for Turbine Speed Reference.
When your generator is connected to the grid, the instantaneous
speed of the machine is determined by the frequency of the
grid... the machine cannot spin at a speed slower or faster than
the other machines connected to the same grid. This means that
TNH is effectively constant and cannot modulate (unless the
grid frequency changes). Now if the machine is at 5MW and its
MW setpoint is changed to 15MW, then additional fuel needs to
be sent into the machine to meet the load demand. The signal
that "tells" the machine to supply additional fuel to the machine
is TNR.... The Preselect Mode Control will raise the value of
TNR to create a proportionate difference (depending upon the
droop setting of the machine) between TNH and TNR. This
difference is a crucial information to the machine which
interprets this difference into a fuel valve open command
(FSRN)....
au revoir
Rahul
P.S. I owe this understanding of the process to control.com and
its posts. When I started even I had no clue to this concept. Read
some earlier posts dating back to 2006 and you'll find very
elaborate discussions on the topic...
Reply
Re: isochronous and droop
May 18, 2007 10:35 pm, by markvguy
TNH - Turbine Speed, High-pressure shaft (%)
TNR - Turbine Speed Reference, High-pressure shaft (%)
When the unit is operating with Preselect Load enabled, the
Speedtronic will adjust TNR to whatever level it needs to be at
to make the actual load equal to the Preselect Load setpoint--up
to exhaust temperature control.
markvguy
Reply
Re: isochronous and droop
May 15, 2007 11:09 pm, by markvguy
You are correct; if the droop has been calculated correctly and
the unit is basically in a new and clean condition and ambient
conditions are near rated and the constituents of the fuel being
burned nearly matches the fuel constituents supplied to the
packager during the requisition phase, a unit with 4% droop
being asked to supply approximately 50% of rated load would
have a TNR of approximately 102%. But there's a lot of "ifs" in
the qualifications above. There's also compressor cleanliness,
inlet filter condition, hot gas path component condition, etc.,
etc., etc.
ANY time a unit is being operated with Preselected Load
enabled, the Speedtronic will adjust TNR as necessary to make
the actual load equal to the Preselected Load setpoint. If a unit is
rated at 120 MW at 59 deg F and 60% relative humidity, and the
ambient is 100 deg F and the relative humidity is 86.7%, then
50% of rated load will NOT be 60 MW, and if a Preselected
Load Setpoint of 60 MW is entered into the Speedtronic, it's
more likely that the TNR required to produce 60 MW will be
greater than 102%--how much greater is a function of all the
"ifs" and the ambient conditions.
Valve position or valve position feedback has nothing to do with
TNR or TNH when the unit is operating at Part Load with
Preselected Load enabled. When the reference is a load setpoint,
and the feedback is the value from the load transducer, the fuel
control valve will be driven to whatever position is required to
make the load feedback equal to the load reference--and, in the
case of Preselected Load, TNR is driven up or down to achieve
the equality of load reference and feedback.
markvguy
Reply
Re: isochronous and droop
May 10, 2007 11:20 pm, by jojo
If you are in island mode (or better still if your Gas turbine is
supplying loads alone) your connected loads should NEVER
exceed the capability of the gas turbine. This means that the
total connected load should be such that the gas turbine control
never reaches temperature control. You have to keep in mind
that temperature control mode is a load limiter to the gas
The man who sets out to carry a cat by its tail learns something that will always be useful and
which never will grow dim or doubtful. - Mark Twain
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