Balletuni Com 2011 04 Dealing With Less Than Perfect Turn Ou

Ballet Uni
Dealing With Less Than Perfect Turn-Out
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Last time in our discussion on Vaganova in America, we read from Agrippina

Vaganovas book which says that strict (180 degree) turn-out is necessary for the
student on track to becoming a professional. But what if you dont have perfect
turn-out naturally?
There is an interesting chapter on turn-out in Gretchen Warrens book, Classical
Ballet Technique, which makes mention of this issue. Warrens bio does not say
that she is trained in the method of teaching classical ballet originating from
Russia, only that she studied at Londons Royal Ballet and the National Ballet
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School of Washington, D.C., however I thought it would be a good idea to look at

what teachers here in the West have to say about turn-out as well as what
Russian-trained pedagogues say.
A Western Opinion
What Is Turn-Out?
First, Warren defines turn-out as a sum total of the legs external rotation: hip,
knee, tibia, ankle and foot (Hamilton, Physical Prerequisites, p. 64). She says
that the ideal 90 degrees (per leg) of outward rotation demanded of professional
ballet dancers is usually achieved with 60-70 degrees of external rotation coming
from above the knee and 20-30 degrees from below (Hardaker et al.,
Pathogenesis, p. 21). She goes on to emphasize that the force for turn-out of the
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legs must come from the hip down and not from the floor up; otherwise, it will be
forced from the knee which, being a hinge rather than a rotary joint, is not
designed to rotate.
What Muscles Should Be Used To Maintain

Turn-Out?
Hip rotation is maintained, Warren says, by the hip rotator muscles and not the
gluteus muscles, as is often incorrectly assumed.*** The glutes are, however,
often used to stabilize the body in the turned-out position and can help the
dancer to feel and control turn-out.
*** Incorrectly is the term Warren uses and here I am paraphrasing her
opinion, which sounds a lot like what I have heard some physiotherapists say
as well. HOWEVER, I have also heard other ballet professionals (in the Russian
school of thought and otherwise) saying just the exact OPPOSITE: Turn-out
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should absolutely be maintained by the gluteus muscles. (Since this is an issue of

much controversy and confusion, I will cover this in more detail in a future
post.)
Update (11/11/13): Ok, now that I have learned how to teach the first year,
I am realizing how unimportant it is to worry about what the names of the
muscles are and which muscles are doing what Vaganova herself always
said that it is not important to know the names of the muscles. What is
important is to follow a physiologically correct method of instruction (there
is only one) and by following that method the muscles will automatically be
doing what they are supposed to do.
In this case, if you are pulled up correctly, in the correct position and
executing the exercises correctly, then your muscles will HAVE to be
balanced in the way that we want for classical ballet. In other words, the
glutes will be tightened but not overused, the hip rotator muscles will be
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engaged in order to turn-out, and all of the muscles will develop properly
and efficiently (most notably the lower back will become very strong this is
the hallmark that the critics in Russia noticed about the first dancers
trained by Vaganova) and without unwanted bulk all by FOLLOWING
TEACHING METHOD. No more studying human anatomy (although that is
a very interesting study, and my favorite subject in college, but I digress),
no more memorizing where the various muscles are and what they do, no
more trying to be a kinesiologist-biomechanic-orthopaedic-yadda-yaddayadda-teacher, all you have to do is be a teacher of classical dance.
Ahhh. Nice how simple that is, isnt it?
How Is Turn-Out Assessed?

To assess turn-out, Warren suggests having the individual lie on his or her back
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on the floor with both legs bent and drawn up as close as possible to the torso.
The soles of the feet are then pressed together, with the knees dropped
sideways, outward toward the floor. Most important, the lower back must be
pressed firmly against the floor. In this position, the closer the knees are to the
floor, the greater the degree of natural turn-out in the hip joints.
Warren Describes The Controversy Of Turn-Out

Next in her chapter on turn-out, Gretchen Warren explains her personal opinion
which I think pretty accurately describes the general consensus here in the
United States:
There is a great deal of controversy in the ballet world

regarding proper turn-out. Research has shown that with
children between the ages of eight and eleven (the
recommended period for beginning serious ballet
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training), it is sometimes possible to increase slightly the

degree of natural turn-out in the hip (i.e., that amount
with which an individual is born). The bone structure of
children in this age group is still malleable, and the repeated practice of ballet exercises in the
turned-out position seems to produce a torsional deformity of the femur (where it inserts into the
hip socket) which results in a permanently increased degree of rotation (Hamilton, Physical
Paramenters). For this reason many serious profesional ballet academies, such as those in the
Soviet Union, require that beginning students force their legs almost immediately into the 180
degree turned-out position. This is considered imperative to their future development as classical
dancers, and is probably not harmful to these students, whose extreme natural flexibility has been
ascertained in the careful physical screening they have undergone before being accepted for
training. Moreover, these beginner students practice daily in small classes in a painstakingly slow
manner, facing the barre, under the careful tutelage of teachers who are constantly on the lookout
for any sign of incorrect placement.
In the West, where commercial teachers are often faced with large beginner classes that do not
meet on a daily basis and may contain many youngsters whose bodies are less than ideally flexible,
the approach toward turn-out tends to be somewhat more conservative. In such situations, forcing
turn-out can be physically harmful and certainly should never be advocated for beginners who are
over twelve years old. A more gradual, less severe method of developing good rotation is
recommended.
My personal belief is that each student must be treated individually. Students who demonstrate the
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recommended degree of turn-out (on page 10) should be asked to use the maximum degree of
rotation possible for their bodies, provided that the training goes slowly and that careful
attention is paid to all aspects of correct placement. Students with less flexibility should be taught
to know their limitations and to work within them. Remember that it is generally impossible,
beyond the age of eleven, to increase the degree of outward rotation in the hip joint. However, most
dancers can learn to make the most of what they have, in such a way as to camouflage a less-thanperfect degree of natural turn-out.
Very few human bodies possess the capacity for perfect turn-out. Students should remember that
they are trying to achieve more than the ability simply to turn their legs outward. Their goal must
be to develop the muscular strength to control and maintain their own maximum degree of
turn-out at all times while they are dancing.
Why I Dont Entirely Agree

Warren has some wise points there, and I appreciate her caution and her
attention to injury prevention and individual assessment. Although I do not
know her personally, I can only imagine from reading her book that she is a very
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devoted and caring teacher and I hope that I could have the pleasure of meeting
her someday!
However, my thoughts are that she seems to be trying to represent the Russian
method (at least in part) but also contradicting certain things that the Russian
method really says, such as the best way to train the muscles in a turned-out
position. I am not at all an expert, but my research so far has lead me to the
conclusion that the method originating from Russia is the one method for
teaching classical ballet which has been developed in such a way as to be
scientificallyand physiologicallycorrect, and thus injury-free, therefore I tend
to take what Agrippina Vaganova says over Warrens personal opinion where it
differs, as in this case. Let me explain what I mean
Particularly, when it comes to a student with less-than-perfect turn-out (the vast
majority of students I would say), the issue of whether or not to TRAIN
TOWARDS 180 degree turn-out is a controversial one. While a Western trained
teacher would be more likely to leave the student in a less-than 180 degree
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position and ask for the leg to tendu or developpe slightly to the front, a teacher
trained in the method founded by Vaganova would ask for 180 degrees on the
second day of training. Now, Warren suggests that these teachers are forcing
turn-out (see quote above), which I very much believe is not true at all (listen to
my podcast on why turning out on the second day is NOT forced here), but then
she goes on to say that it is OK to force turn-out as long as the students are
younger than 12 years old: these beginner students practice daily in small
classes in a painstakingly slow manner, facing the barre, under the careful
tutelage of teachers who are constantly on the lookout for any sign of incorrect
placement. While I agree with this last statement, it seems to be a contradiction
in light of her earlier statement: How can turn-out which is forced also be
correct??
Secondly, I am confused by her explanation of how to assess turn-out. How can
you assess the bone structure of an individual while they are lying on their back
with their legs open without also taking into account the muscles, ligaments,
fascia? I think this is a better assessment of the current flexibility of the student,
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not the bone structure or the natural facility for turn-out in the hip-joint.
(When I lie in this position, especially when I am tight, my legs start out a bit off
the floor and only reach the floor after several minutes, and sometimes only after
several days of stretching.) Also, even if this is a good way to assess the bone
structure of the hip-joint, it still isnt a complete assessment of turn-out since
turn-out is the sum total of rotation in the hip, knees and ankles.
I also do not agree that it impossible to increase ones facility for turn-out past
the age of eleven, if that is in fact what she means to say. True, it would be
impossible to alter the bone structure in the hip joint, so I agree with Warren
there. However, my sources say that, more frequently than not, it is NOT the
bone structure of the individual student which is the issue (see also
physiotherapist Lisa Howells opinion). That being the case, it is certainly
conceivable that careful and consistent training can strengthen the muscles
controlling turn-out, which would in turn increase the flexibility of the fascia
(layer of fibrous tissue), and other flexible tissue surrounding the hip, to produce
a greater degree of turn-out than one is born with (From Wikipedia: Like
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ligaments, aponeuroses, and tendons, fasciae are dense regular connective

tissues, containing closely packed bundles of collagen fibers oriented in a wavy
pattern parallel to the direction of pull. Fasciae are consequently flexible
structures able to resist great unidirectional tension forces until the
wavy pattern of fibers has been straightened out by the pulling
force. These collagen fibers are produced by the fibroblasts located within the
fascia).
I now know, after assessing my own turn-out as an adult, that had my turn-out
been trained rather than ignored I would almost certainly have been able to
achieve 180 degrees.
UPDATE 12/22/11:
I can now get to 180 degrees in first position at the barre! <--Read about
how I did it by clicking the link.
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While a young student, I always thought that my turn-out was bad and it was a
source of embarrassment to me, but taking a hard look at it now I know that my
bone structure is not the problem. My problem is that my muscles have not been
developed to sustain such turn-out. I received the majority of my training at a
very respectable school with experienced teachers, so Im sure I cant be the only
person with this problem!
That is why the best way to achieve this while avoiding injury is important for me
to understand, both as an adult getting back into dancing and as a new teacher.
There is still so much I have to learn about this complicated and controversial
topic, so I am continuing to look for answers and turning to the turn-out
experts, the Russian pedagogues.
Related articles you may want to check out...

Question: Why Should You Hold The Leg Strictly To The Side A La Seconde?
Are Russian Dancers Better?
Is 180 Degree Turn-Out Really Necessary?
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The Effect Of Neural Mobility On Your Flexibility

How To Find And Choose A Vaganova Teacher In The U.S.
How to Tilt the Pelvis for Correct Placement of the Spine
Posted by Mary on April 4,

2011
37 Replies
Hi, I'm Mary Fernandez! I'm a

ballet teacher and mother of two
rambunctious boys. As if my three
boys (hubby included) didn't keep me busy enough, I
also enjoy getting back into dancing shape and studying
the Teaching Method of Classical Dance. Grab a cup of
tea or coffee, follow me, and I'll tell you about it!
To quote material, kindly:

1) Ask for my permission first
2) Cite me as your source &
3) Do not misquote.
Thank you!
How do you tell who really knows teaching method? [Free Download]
Is 180 Degree Turn-Out Really Necessary?
And that is what you should NOT do
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37 thoughts on Dealing With Less Than Perfect Turn-Out

Maddie on February 9, 2013 at 11:43 pm said:
I am glad to hear the different opinions about turnout. At my studio, we

have been trained to get as much turnout as we can access, but correctly, to
avoid injury. The problem at my studio is, some of the kids are lazy and do not
use the correct methods to achieve 180 or close to 180 turnout, and hurt
themselves by doing so. I really enjoy this blog, and it is helpful to read peoples
views on ballet.
Reply
Mary on February 13, 2013 at 10:56 am said:
Hello Maddie,
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Thank you for your comment, and I am so glad you enjoy the blog! I agree,
you can definitely hurt yourself by not turning out correctly. The good news
is, when you sum up the rotation in the hip, knee and ankle joints, most
people do have at least 180 degrees. The key is in pulling up, which will
prevent injury, and in doing the correct exercises to strengthen your turnout.
Thanks again!
Mary
Reply
ANGELICA on May 3, 2012 at 8:45 am said:
Indeed, it is, Mary ! :( :(

Ana, thanks again for your useful explanations.
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Well, if my teacher attempted the Vaganova School in SP, she did it as a foreign
student and for a year : she is Cuban. So fortunately no horror story here. If I
cant denie her training in the Vaganova Academy must have been tough, and
for it she does deserve respect, I cant equally denie that she is naturally badtempered and diva-like. I know her life has not been an easy one (studying in
DSP, leaving Cuba to dance in Europe, losing her husband and her parents) but
the way she acts as a teacher is influanced by her personality rather than by her
life experience : it is like she is Doctor Jekyll and Mister Hyde because there
is the woman she is in everyday life and then there is the woman she is in Ballet,
which are two different persons !!
Anyway, nothing and no one is gonna make her change so we have to deal with
her diva-like personality and I swear that is not sunshine every day !! :-D
Easier said than done when you have to bear the humiliating nasty things she
tells you in front of a whole 30-persons class though !! :-O :-/ :-O :-/ I fell like
my nerves are thin fraying ropes that are gonna snap one day . :-/ :-/
Reply
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Ana on April 27, 2012 at 2:07 am said:
It sounds like you got the torso! Like I said, it took my friend two years of
very hard work to conquer her extension, so dont get discouraged yet. And I
certainly understand about bad tempered Russians. I had enough of them in
my life too! Really, read Maya Plisetskayas autobiography the abuse they
suffered under the Soviet political regime was so dehumanizing that you would
be lucky if your teacher still has a soul left. Mayas father was murdered for no
good reason, her mother and 7 month old baby brother were sent to the Gulag
(Siberian concentration camp) shortly thereafter, and they made a point to
humiliate her disgraced family ties at every possible juncture for the next
forty years. And the worst part is, the Soviets were only doing the same thing
their Tsarist predecessors had done torment and abuse the little people.
I am not saying it excuses your teachers bad behavior, but sometimes it helps
to know why they are the way they are so that you dont take it so personally. I
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studied Russian history and society in college and, as much as I love them, they
are a nation of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder survivors.
Ironically, that is part of the beauty of their ballet. Somehow, ballet has become
their escape into a world of beauty and perfection, their national expression of
freedom from within oppression. That exactly that is what Maya Plisetskaya
did for her country. But she suffered a lot for it, and, just between you and me,
she wasnt all that nice either.
Reply
Mary on April 30, 2012 at 12:58 pm said:
Ana- Wow, that is some pretty horrible history!

Reply
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ANGELICA on April 25, 2012 at 8:04 am said:
ANSWER TO ANAS COMMENT FROM APRIL 13 :

Hi Ana !
Well, if you can stick your foot in your mouth, then ear-grazing extensions
arent that far ! ;-)
Jeu de mots ! LOL !
I am a Foreign Languages teacher so I know what it means to break knowledge
down for students to learn it.
Now, thanks to your further explanations, I can picture what the Sizova torso
mean : with abs muscles tightly knitted together and the whole body pulled-up
(as the basic ballet posture requires), you start a cambr back BUT stop at the
very beginning of it, just when you are over the line of back of your spine.
Am I right ?
I did it and boy does it feel like I had a 2-ton H-up breast expanding in front
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of me !! And boy does it feel like m breast and my stomach/lower irbs were
suddendly 1 kilometer away from each other !!
AWKWARD, OMG !! :-D
What about extension, I can tell you that I am a true stakhanovite : I can spend
hours and hours training and insisting, struggling to succeed a movement,
getting furious about myself .
Trust me : I do know what stretching in order to get those extensions mean ! I
know the pain I got through
And during the lessons, I work so hard that I sweat like hell by the end of the
first tendu exercises at the barre.
But I havent still experienced the moment in which things suddendly fell into
place (because Im sure its about it) concerning high extensions to the front
and to the side . :-/
You used the expression conquer your body in your post : I really like it !
It is indeed an excellent expression, corresponding perfectly to the truth
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because Ballet IS conquering ones body : it is about to learn the right

neuromuscular patterns, which in turn means to learn to know ones body.
As for my teacher, thank you for your encouragements.
Yes, she does have it in her bones BUT just looking at someone who is not able
to explain you how to is not enough to learn. Moreover, I pay for my lesson to
get corrections, not to see her showing the movements : that doesnt help me,
especially as she is really bad-tempered (I remember her shaking me and
beating me while I did not succeed in doing something during my private
lesson) .
Reply
Ana on April 16, 2012 at 2:20 pm said:
Hi Mary,
You have dispelled my doubts regarding Mme. Willis-Aarnio thank you for
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being so gracious about it!!

Its possible that Mme. Sizova meant it as an over-compensation. I hadnt
thought of that before. But it makes sense. In her autobiography, Natalie
Makarova speaks about two distinct ballet postures one romantic (i.e.
Giselle) and one classical (Swan Lake): In order to assimilate (the Romantic)
style, one has to have a big, soaring jump, a free-floating torso, as if it were
independent from the legs, an indefinable plasticity of the arms les bras
inachevs ethereally sketched in the air, as if testing its density. The
Classical torso, on the other hand, is differently poised in the classical tutu: it
stands in the working leg very firmly, and the sense of center is absolute. (p.
122, italics my own. It is a VERY good book, btw, extensively documenting Kirov
ballet pedagogy as Vaganova would have remembered it.)
On the other hand, I believe that Mme. Sizova meant it to be my exact posture,
at least during the full barre exercise. Even if she didnt expect me to always
dance in this extreme posture, I think she valued the ability of a dancer to have
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it in the repertoire, so to speak able to pull it into certain movements

and positions without reproducing the strenuous effort it requires in the
beginning.
Moreover, despite how extreme it FELT, it didnt actually look that extreme
in the mirror. That was one of the things that surprised me about it. I was
expecting to see in my reflection a girl in cambr back, about to fall over
backwards (what I felt) but what I saw was.beautiful. It was the closest I have
ever looked to a Russian ballerina;-)
I actually believe it is the posture the Vaganova academy regularly teaches. You
can see it on several of the girls in the following video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A46d36ccHa4 Just keep in mind that it
doesnt look as extreme as it feels.but, at the same time, it looks way
different than what qualifies as proper posture for normal people:
http://s3.hubimg.com/u/2778970_f260.jpg Way straighter, and way farther
back.
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I actually think the point of this posture is to develop turnout. When a person is
in correct posture, according to a chiropractor they are actually leaning
forward, to balance over turned-in feet. But when the feet are perfectly turned
out, and the dancer balances over a tiny line of floor her posture must react
accordingly. I think pulling up and back this pseudo cambr back posture
helps to find that turned-out balance with the greatest stability.
If you remember, I mentioned earlier that this position made my turn-out snap
open. I still remember the way it felt, the opening pull on my hip joint as I grand
plid. All of the sudden, I was turning out more than I had ever turned out
before just to keep the balance.
I actually think this position is at once both a key to developing turnout and
balance. It is really hard, but it doesnt look hard. t looks like ballet!
Reply
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Mary on April 20, 2012 at 9:36 am said:
Hi Ana,
Yes, I know exactly what you mean. That extremely pulled up posture is what
is needed in order to balance with turned-out feet, and this is why turn-out
(meaning 180 degrees!) is so important. If you are not turned out in your legs,
then you will never find your correct center of gravity, and your body will
have to assume a more pedestrian posture. Very interesting how you
experienced that it works the other way as well: when you pulled up more
through your torso, you found it easier to turn out your legs. That completely
makes sense, and this is why the posture at the barre is so crucial to get right
in the very beginning. Turn-out happens when everything is pulled up (so
much so, that it feels like your muscles are screaming, or like you are in a very
awkward position until you get used to it).
I agree also that your Mme. Sizova was probably trying to correct your
posture, rather than teaching you a particular style (such as the Romantic
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style). You learn the foundation first in your lessons, and I believe the various
styles probably come from adapting to different choreography and following
the direction of the choreographer. I dont know much yet about teaching
different styles though. Ill have to get Makarovas autobiography; it sounds
interesting!
Mary
Reply
Hi Angelica, Hi Mary!
You guys are both right I have a tendency to stick my foot in my mouth from
time to time! I know that what makes a teacher is more than being a good
dancer. As a teacher myself (history), I understand the importance of being able

to break knowledge down for students so that they can master it.
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Which is why I feel bad that I havent yet been able to articulate this posture
of turning out the torso for you. You said it looks like a cambr back. Are you
comfortable with your cambr backs? It doesnt hurt or pinch anywhere?
You are pulling back and down with the shoulders, knitting together the
abdomen core muscles until they are very tight? Because this posture is
essentially just that a small cambr back. If you cambr back pulling
upwards, as you should always do for a cambr back but stop just as your
balance is centered directly over the back of your spine you should feel like
you are leaning that is the posture Mme. Sizova wanted me to do grand
plis in. And tendusetc. For her, it was the neutral position of all classical
ballet. To me, the way it draws open the chest and plants the weight of the body
directly over the hips, it feels like my torso is turned out.
As for extension, I think it comes from an obsessed amount of desire and selfdiscipline constantly working it, throughout the day, throughout the week,
never slacking. I remember one of my classmates was that sort of worker
always sweating and I wished I had had the same amount of dedication. Her
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extension came to her slowly but steadily over the course of a year or two all
the way up to her ears.
Mary, I have no idea what sort of career Mme. Willis-Aarnio had, nor what she
has done since then. I shouldnt have made assumptions. I am tempted to
buy her book but I am worried about shipping costs to Europe it does sound
like she has some amazing thing to say about technique. However, and you can
correct me if I am wrong, as far as I can tell, she has produced no professional
dancers. Usually that would be the first thing a ballet teacher would list in their
credentials their successes as a ballet teacher. All I am saying is that, if she
hasnt produced a professional yet, despite her extraordinary knowledge,
despite whatever she is able to teach, she probably cant do it in the future
either. Something is missing. I have no idea what her method is missing, except
results. My criticism doesnt change the fact that she probably has
extraordinary insights into ballet technique.
My own teacher, Miss Balestracci, was also a single teacher with her own studio
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in a small town in Virginia. But she has produced several professional dancers,
including a corps member of ABT, a Rockette, a few dancers for smaller
companies, and a multiple prize winner at the American Grand Prix, including a
special award for artistry at the big one in NYC. This last dancer was the one I
just talked about the one who worked so hard on her extension. It wasnt
vanity she wasnt vain, even though her legs got up to her ears. I think she
really just had that calling. She had to conquer her body make it do what she
wanted because she had something very important to say with it.
Dancing is certainly more than arms and legs. It is the call of a body to the
expression of its very soul. I think Mme. Balestracci understood that better
than she understood technique, although her technical knowledge was
passable. She used to say that her primary teaching goal was to teach us to love
dance. Once we loved dance absolutely, then she would work with us to perfect
it.
I am sorry about your teacher, Angelica, but if she has it in her bones, at least
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you can learn from her by watching. I learned a lot that way. Russian teachers
can be really abusive (Mme. Sizova used to curse at us in Russian, when she
wasnt telling us how crappy we were in English). Look through their history
they probably all have severe Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder! Makarovas
and Plisetskayas autobiographies might help you understand some of the
horrible abuses Russian dancers endured those things that made many of
them cruel and bitter. Sometimes, if you are patient with them, and try to take
what you can, there are these moments of softness and insight that can make it
worthwhile. Sometimes. Good luck!
Anyway, the book I am writing its a novel. I would be crap with any sort of
technical writing;-)
Reply

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Ana,
Perhaps your teacher was using the technique of over-compensation in
order to correct your posture? I learned that teachers sometimes tell you to
go beyond the point where they want you to go, knowing that once you start
dancing you will naturally do slightly less, and then you will be in the perfect
position. For example, the position of the arms in arabesque: students are
taught to place the hand directly in front of the sternum because the arm will
naturally drift out slightly and then it will be correct. So my theory is that
your teacher was telling you to stretch your spine upwards almost to the
point of the top of a cambre back, so that when you start dancing you will be
pulled up enough (it would be impossible to maintain that leaning back
position while dancing, but if you are used to striving for it then you will be
pulled up just as much as you can be). Does that make sense?
Peggy Willis-Aarnios biography is available online at her website here. It
describes parts of her career as a dancer, which is quite sufficient to see that
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she has performed extensively as a soloist (2800 performances at one

summer theater alone), although it even leaves other parts of her career out.
Going back to that topic, I dont think it is really relevant to go into extreme
detail about your dancing career when you are talking about your teaching
career, for those reasons already mentioned. I also personally dont think
that you have to say whether you produced professional dancers, since the
professional status isnt precisely indicative of whether the training was good
or not (many professional dancers did not have good training, and probably
the vast majority of students dont go on to become professionals anyway,
even when they had the talent and the training to do so). That being said, Dr.
Willis-Aarnio actually HAS produced quite a few professional dancers, the
first one of which was rather remarkable in that he was trained by her
exclusively, didnt start ballet until he was 21, and ended up having a
successful career with a respectable company.
In addition, Dr. Willis-Aarnios pedagogical students have gone on to teach
dancers who have become successful professionals and prize winners at prix
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competitions. She also helped her sister ballet company in St. Petersburg
(directed by Marina Medvetskaya) with their professional lessons, making a
noticeable difference in their strength and stamina when performing difficult
works. So, although it does help a bit that I have actually seen her students
with my own eyes, I think that all of this is evidence enough to conclude that
Dr. Willis-Aarnio has not only had great success with her own students, but
her pedagogical training courses have had that ripple effect in the community
as well. What I am trying to do, of course, is to help increase that ripple effect
by spreading the word about the method because, truly, these are not merely
insights but real education stemming from actual research, experience and
proven success, spanning generations.
Have I dispelled your doubts yet? :-) In any case, thank you for the continued
dialogue, and I hope that I can help a bit where you are interested to learn
more. I do highly recommend her books (which I should have available in the
shop soon I just need to find time to put them up). Dont let the
international shipping cost worry you it is far less than the actual cost for
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the books.
Mary
Reply
Angelica on April 8, 2012 at 7:08 am said:
Bonjour Ana !
Merci de ta rponse.
Si tu prfres le Franais, pas de problme pour moi. ;o)
What kind of novel are you writing ?
Is is meant to somehow be a techninal book, with pieces of advice to help
dancers, or is it rather an imaginary story taking place in the world of Ballet ?
Anyway, you should pay attention to those kind of regrettable details : if it is
sure that we can not know everything about everybody, it is any authors duty
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to inform oneself because you wouldnt want to publish wrong informations in

your book and consequently a possible libel action against you to be brought. :-/
My two cents ! :)
I watched Alla Sizovas video : great Ballerina !
If she was as good as a teacher than as a Ballerina, you are lucky to have taken
lessons with her.
Because what counts, as Mary said very rightly, is not the capacity to do things
but well and truly the (too rare) ability to explain how to to these things.
Just as speaking French is simply not enough to pretend to be able to teach it,
being able to do 32 fouetts and having an ear-grazing extension are NOT
what makes you a good teacher. What makes you a good teacher is HOW to
explain to your students to do these 32 fouetts and to reach for an eargrazing extension : ability is not to be mistaken for PEDAGOGY, the latter being
the key of a good teaching method.
My father, who is a very qualified mechanic and a pilot, has not been able to
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teach me how to drive a car : he knows everything about mechanic and driving
techniques as much as he is not able to communicate his know-how (no, yelling
and swearing is NOT a teaching method !! LOL !! ).
It is exactly the same in the case of my principal Ballet teacher : she attended
the Vaganova Academy of St-Petersburg for one year as a foreign student,
became an Etoile, toured around the world, etc So, we are speaking about
eye-scratching arches, sky-grazing extensions and plenty of talent and
recognition.
Well she may be talented to the highest point, have spectacular feet and having
attended the Vaganova Academy but she still remains incapable to teach
properly somebody. If her lessons are really well done, they lack the necessary
pedagogy : she may be a stellar choice to train already professional dancers but
not to teach a whole Ballet syllabus.
I hope that these the three examples I gave here above help you to understand
that what countsas a teacher is not being able to do something but to be able to
explain HOW TO do it.
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I have had a teacher who is a wonderful pirouette-teacher while as a dancer she

couldnt herself do two pirouettes : as she didnt know how to do pirouettes,
she analyzed the situation, understood the problems and that is precisely the
reason why she is now able to properly teach students how to turn. I still miss
her because she is one the very best teachers I have had and, man, how much
progresses did make in a few lessons with her !!! :-)
Agrippina Vaganova herself hadnt had (Mary, please correct me if Im wrong :-)
) a stellar dancer career and it made absolutely no difference when it comes to
the teaching method she founded : not having had a stellar career did not make
her teaching bad, quite the reverse.
It is essential for you to understand that what counts is to know HOW to have
someone do something, otherwise you are gonna be tricked by great dancers
that pretend to teach you something while they are not able to communicate
you their technique (the HOW to). Most of the time, you will notice that they
havent got technique themselves : how is somebody likely to pretend to teach
others something he/she doesnt have ?!
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That is an equally important point : a good teacher is someone who has been
properly taught. Always inform yourself about a possible teacher : you have to
know which is his/her background.
Coming to high extensions and high arches, if I agree with you about the fact
that they are not trifling details, please keep in mind that good technique
doesnt mean sky-high extensions and bumped arches : Ballet is not aerobics.
Just having a high extension and a beautiful arch doesnt make you a dancer :
what makes you a daner is technique AND artistry. Because Ballet is much
more than a simple sport and much more than a simple art. You would better
reach for fine-tuned technique than for eye illusions : an ear-grazing extension
on a misaligned body is everything but useful, just as much as an embossed
high arch is never likely to help someone who is not able to dane.
But, for struggling with my extensions to the side and to the front (Im even
ashamed when it comes to certain exercises (like dvelopps) because I feel
ridiculous) and combing Internet and various books in order to get a piece of
answer, I DO know what you mean and what it feels like . I would like as much
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as you do to find someone or something that will help me to get those damned
shoulder-level extensions . growling growling !! LOL !!
Sorry but, despite what you explained here above, I cant picture the turnedoout torso fact .
What I see in Lopatkina Odettes beautiful picture is a cambr to the back in
an on-the-floor-position. But I guess remaining in a cambr back position is
not what you mean by turning out the torso.
Try to explain it in French : je comprendrai peut-tre mieux ! ;o)
I also dont get the idea of the backwards but upwards pull.
Dont worry : I know how much it is difficult to try to describe things like these
with words. ust read my previous message and you will understand. ;o)
Bis bald !
Reply
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Mary on April 9, 2012 at 9:05 am said:
Thats right, Vaganova had a good but not stellar career, retiring only
one year after being promoted to prima. Vera Kostrovitskaya, an even better
example, had a lung condition which prevented her from performing much at
all. From Wikipedia, Though [Vaganova] did have a respectable career as a
dancer, her leadership in teaching classical dance was what gave her one of
the most respected places in the history of ballet. Her own early struggle
with deciphering ballet technique had taught her much. She taught
students who would go on to become legends of the dance.
Perhaps it is precisely those struggles as a dancerand the subsequent desire
to provide better instructionwhich brings out the best in teachers.
Reply

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Angelica,
Haha. Ich bin Amerikanerin in Deutschland mit kleine Kinder auch da
habe ich nur einen Grundniveau Deutsch gemeistert. Eigentlich, je prfre le

franais. Je lai tudi luniversit et je suis pass un semester
Lyon.
If its okay with you, I am about to write another novel. Actually, I AM writing
a novel about ballet I have been for the better part of a year now, mostly
researching and rehashing what I learned way back when I danced on a semiprofessional level back in high school.
This lesson about the Russian torso I learned from Alla Sizova (
http://www.guardian.co.uk/stage/2011/oct/14/kirov-alla-sizova-nureyevballet) back in the summer of 2000 when she was teaching at the Kirov
Academy in Washington DC. We were doing plies, and she wanted to correct my
posture. She began lifting my chin up, but after I was out of stretching room,
she wanted me to continue. The only way I could continue was back, so she had
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me pull up so hard that I leaned backwards. Does that make sense? It wasnt
back. It was up. But because it was so far up, it went backwards. She kept telling
me to pull higher and higher stretching upwards everything, my neck, my
spine, my hips, my legs, etc. And as I moved farther and farther upwards and
backwards, she kept wanting more. She didnt want the backward curve to
come from my lumbar curve, which maintained its normal axis toward my
sternum. Instead, she wanted the thoracic curve of my spine inverted to curve
outwards concave rather than its normal convex position. My sternum
became part of my core it was over the center of my hips over the center of
my gravity. She basically pushed me to the point that I would have fallen
backwards if I lost my balance.
That is when it happened. When we are standing normally, our center of gravity
is quite solid a flag pole core, nice and thick and sturdy. But in this new
position, it was like my center of balance got so stretched backwards that it

became a thin thread. I couldnt wobble or I would fall. As I plid, especially
into the grand plie she kept pushing me backwards so that my knees
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struggled to turnout simply to maintain my balance under my backwardleaning head.
This position should make several things happen: 1. Turnout if your legs
dont turnout, you have a massive uncomfortable torque on the hips and
spine as your body struggles to move in two directions at once. Turnout
becomes the natural result of keeping your legs and hips within your center of
gravity. 2) Sore abdominal core muscles. To maintain this position your
stomach necessarily needs to knit itself together very tightly, and the muscles it
will prefer will be the ones closest to the tension the deepest ones of your
core. 3) Difficulty breathing the torso will be constricted by the unnatural
bending of the lung cavity. 4) Profuse sweat. It is a really hard position to
maintain. If you arent shaking and sweating after three minutes, you arent
pulling up (back) hard enough. Of course, as one practices, it becomes easier.
Here is a picture of Uliana Lopatkina using this posture as Odette:
http://30.media.tumblr.com/ciJaweS61lrux3qyhHny39zLo1_500.jpg I called it
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turning out of the torso because that is what it looks and feels like to me.
Mary is right it is really hard to explain this stuff because you cant isolate
one aspect of ballet technique without going back to the whole thing. Its like
trying to explain to someone in words alone how to ride a bike, or the
function of one of the gears in a watch.
Ballet is especially hard to nail down intellectually. Some have attempted to

create a notation system to delineate where a choreographer would like the
arms and legs to go, and videos can transmit a bit more of the sense of
movement, but all professional dancers would tell you the most important
aspect of learning new choreography is the presence of a stager the
choreographer herself, a dancer from the original production, or the closest

thing to. Only through a stager can a dancer learn the intention behind the
movement and the core of what the dance is about. Which is why when Rudolf
Nureyev staged La Bayedre for Paris Opera, he was passing on a legacy that
had been handed down from Petipa himself, through the generations of the
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Mariinsky Theater.
The same thing is true of ballet technique. The teacher must be able to ride
the bicycle in order to teach you how to do it she must know exactly what
it feels like, exactly what its purpose is, and, most importantly, at some point in
her past, she must have mastered it herself. In short, your teacher must have
ballet in her bones if you want a chance to get ballet in your bones. Which is
why, even though I have spent the better part of a year thinking about it and
trying to articulate it, my best writing can only nail down a few aspects of Proper
Ballet Technique.
Which is also why (I am sorry, Mary!) I have some doubts about Peggy WillisAarnios training method. She certainly has done an amazing job at analyzing
and explaining key aspects of Proper Ballet Technique, especially turnout, but
she herself has never mastered ballet (neither has Eric Conrad, even though he
would sell you his CD for $50), and, unless they have mastered ballet all of it,
not just little parts of it they cannot teach it. Even more compelling is her
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(and Erics) lack of evidence. Neither have produced their own crop of
professionally competitive dancers (although Eric likes to take credit for them),
and if they cant produce dancers, then that is a sign their methodology is
missing some fundamental links.
If you want to be professional, you have to find yourself a good teacher
someone who has ballet in their bones and is skilled at sharing it. Hopefully,
they would have professional experience, although it isnt always necessary.
One of the best teachers of my past Adrienne Dellas Thornton got a
career-ending injury at age 17, before she had been able to test out her promise.
She was the one who trained the Universal Ballet of Seoul, South Korea into
existence.
The best is a ballet training facility that includes several talented teachers and
which feeds into a semi-professional or professional company. I would never
teach ballet alone I couldnt. I never reached a professional level, and even
though my grasp on certain aspects of Proper Ballet Technique is quite good, I
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was crap at other stuff. (I sucked at turns, for instance;-) How can I give
students something I dont have?
Peggy Willis-Aarnio does a great job on teaching turnout, but, from what I can
see, she lacks emphasis on two essential vanities: 1) leg to ear extensions, and
2) banana feet. While its true that neither make a dancer the quality of an
artists soul is unrelated if you dont have these qualities, you will not be
competitive in todays market. You would be like a soprano who couldnt hit
her high note.
I still disagree with Mary and say, Get a foot stretcher if you need one. You
can buy one: http://www.footstretch.com/ or just make one by securing a width

of fabric to a plank. Use it carefully read up about the dangers of stretching
and make sure you stretch after class, not before but you dont want your
feet to hold you back from your dreams. If you have a bad arch, and are over age
13 or so, you wont be able to make it great, but you can at least make the
most of what you have. Yulia Makhalina is a great example of a prima today
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whose feet are bad, but made the most of:

http://www.criticaldance.com/interviews/2003/YuliaMakhalina20030510.html
Willis-Aarnios focus on turnout may be incomplete, but it is absolutely
invaluable. Turnout is the most difficult aspect of ballet to acquire and the most
important. So many western dancers even professionals dont have it
because they were never properly taught. Their hips are all knotted and
muscular, whereas Russian ballet hips are as smooth as ribbons flowing down a
maypole into perfectly turned out thighs.
As research for my book, I have been rehoning my turnout to see if it was

possible to improve it, even as old as I am, and, of course, it is. Its just really
hard. The Russians focus on turnout exclusively for the first year facing the
barre, very (very) simple exercises all intent on developing it. More than any
one position or exercise (many of which we already discussed in this thread), I

found the most important ingredient is obsessive amounts of struggling for it.
In all positions. Maybe that is why the good old Russian drill sergeant
teaching method screaming at you and name-calling until they are blue in
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the face is so effective: it helps us strain further, beyond the point when we
would otherwise pat ourselves on the back and say, good job!
Maya Plisetskaya declares in her autobiography very Russian-like that
those who are not destined to be dancers shouldnt try. And I think its true
we might have banana feet, legs glued to our ears, and perfect turnout, but if
we dont have that special calling, we will never make it beyond soloist.
Historically, all the greatest dancers have been extraordinary actresses (Anna
Pavlova, Gelsey Kirkland), extraordinarily musical (Margot Fonteyn, Maya
Plisetskaya), extraordinarily kinetic (Barishnikov, Nijinski), or some
combination of these artistic qualities. There is a really interesting movie
coming out in the States, First Position, which offers a glimpse into what all this
means how, out of all the girls who want to dance professionally, most of
them are weeded out, and only a few remain. Here is a trailer it looks
absolutely fascinating! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qjlWdHitNo)

Good luck!
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Reply
Before we pass judgment on anyone, I think it is important to take into

consideration the body of work that this person has produced, particularly
when it is as prolific as Peggy Willis-Aarnios.
(Forgive me, Ana, if you have already examined some or all of her academic
work and/or educational products. In your last comment, you mentioned her
emphasis on turn-out and her lack of emphasis on extension and feet, but
Im not sure whether you were referring to anything specific that she said in
her books or videos, or if you just made that assumption based on something
I said on this site.)
Another very important point Id like to make is this: All of the work Peggy
Willis-Aarnio has produced pertains to the method founded by Vaganova,
and Dr. Willis-Aarnio makes NO claim to having any part whatsoever in the
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creation of said method. So to say that this method is Peggy Willis-Aarnios

is a huge misunderstanding of what she actually teaches.
Now, to address the doubts that were brought up, in brief:
To say that Peggy Willis-Aarnio did not master ballet herself as a dancer is
simply not true. She did, in fact, have a respectable career as a classical
dancer until she sustained a serious back injury which ended her career. That
being said, the fact alone of being a dancer does not make one a good teacher,
even if you were as famous as Mikhail Baryshnikov! (See this video where
Baryshnikov teaches a master class in China in 1979; while he does show off
his incredible talent as a dancer, it is apparent to me that he does not actually
have pedagogical training: http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=9GdP7zdj1NA)
After her back injury, Peggy Willis-Aarnio pursued teaching as the head of the
dance program at Texas Tech University, during which time she became the
student of John Barker, the principal pedagogical student of Vera
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Kostrovitskaya herself. Kostrovitskaya, of course, was Agrippina Vaganovas

assistant, and the one who completed Vaganovas research (when she died of
a heart attack in 1951) upon the publication of her book, School of Classical
Dance. (This book is the syllabus for the method Vaganova founded, and it
became the textbook of the Vaganova Academy in St. Petersburg.) I bring all
of this up to illustrate how Dr. Willis-Aarnios pedagogical lineage to
Vaganova is pure and very direct.
In addition, Dr. Willis-Aarnio was also certified by Valentina Roumiantseva at
the Vaganova Academy in St. Petersburg as a teacher of teachers (the
highest qualification for a teacher in Russia). While a certification alone is
STILL not enough to demonstrate mastery as a teacher, it says a lot that her
teaching has been endorsed by such notables as Galina Mezentseva (principal
dancer of the Kirov for 20 years), Vera Krasovskaya (dean of Russian ballet
historians and a ballet writer who was highly respected in the West -NY
Times) and many others who are also highly respected in the world of ballet
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and in Russia.
The real proof, as she states herself, is in the pudding. To see this proof,
just look at her Classical Ballet Lesson DVDs and you will notice two of Peggy
Willis-Aarnios students dancing on either side of Galina Mezentseva. I think
just the mere fact that Mezentseva did not object to having these students
dance next to her says it all.
I would also just like to mention that having high extensions and beautiful
feet do make you competitive in todays world, but those qualities alone are
not the mark of a well-trained dancer. For example, since taking the first
teachers course, I am now able to see where the Russian dancers on Eric
Conrads DVD (with high extensions and beautiful feet) are making mistakes.
On the flip side, I have also seen videos of students trained exclusively by Dr.
Willis-Aarnio (which she showed us during the course), who had very little
natural ability in terms of body type, but still managed to display beautiful
technique, strength and skill as the result of their superior training.
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My point is, while Peggy Willis-Aarnios school may not have the luxury that
other schools have of having a company attached (which naturally attracts
more of the gifted dancers), the technique and discipline of her students
gifted or not so giftedis undeniable and beautiful. In my opinion, these
acquired qualities, and not displays of unrefined natural beauty, are the true
markings of a masterful teacher.
Reply
Angelica on April 2, 2012 at 9:45 am said:
To Ana :
Guten Abend Ana !
Ich habe gelesen, daB du aus Deutschland bist.
Ich bin Italienisch aber wohne in Belgien, im Franzoesisch sprechenden Gebiet.
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Ich liebe die Deustsche Sprache : ich studierte Deutsch als ich in der Schule der
Sekundarstufe ware und gang in die Abendschule um diese Sprache weiter zu
studieren (ich hoerte zu es gibt ein Paar Jahre weil ich keine Zeit mehr wegens
Ballett habe).
Ich nutze die Gelegenheit deiner Teilnahme in Marys Website, um einige
Woerter auf Deutsch zuzufluestern ! ;-)
I am gonna carry on in English to be sure that everybody understand what I am
saying ! ;-)
Ana, I have a question for you :
In one of your messages, you talked about the turned-out torso.
But WHAT is a turned-out torso ?
What do you mean ?
In this message, you also said that you think that turned-out torso is the
secret behind Russian port de bras : why ? Could you please explain it ?
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Thank you !
Danke schoen !
:-)
Reply
Angelica (Caro) on April 2, 2012 at 9:17 am said:
Dear Mary,
Its a long time since I dont write to you but you are not gonna be deceived as I
am going to let here a very long novel ! LOL !
Believe it or not but I printed all the present discussion in order to analyze it
and to get informations.
I now understand WHY relev lent at 90 degrees and grand battement tendu
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jet (which is an extension of the relev exercise, with the psoas and hip
muscles working more as the leg is taken higher) are so important to develop
extension : they indeed teach you how the use the hamstrings in order to
elevate the leg and to rely on your core in order to maintain the leg at that
height (and not, as most people wrongly do, to grip the quadriceps).
You can not imagine HOW MUCH I thank you for explaining me what Vaganova
so marvellously stated she really did a true gem of work !!! It is nearly
incredible, thinking she wrote it in the early-mid of the 20th century, to see how
much anatomical knowledge she had and how she so successfully managed to
use it in order for it to be understood by most people.
I could not trust an other kind of method anymore : Vaganova rcoks, my god !
I even can not understand why it has been criticized so much, as much as I just
cant understand why most US and European teachers are blaming it and not
using it instead of teaching in a wrong way (it is easy to recognize an US-trained
ballerina : most of the time, not to say nearly always they have quadriceps
developped like soccer players, which is really ugly :-/ ).
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Period. :-)
Now, my dear Californian blonde :-) , I have some (some is an euphemism !
LOL ! ) questions for you :
1) About arch and instep :
You said that exercises meant to develop the arch of the foot at the same time
stenghten it AND stretch it and talked about exercises on demi-pointe.
I was about to ask you if all exercises done on demi-pointe are enought to work
on the arch of if there were more specific exercises to do on demi-pointe BUT
you also told that developing the arch and the instep (which are
complementary) is a complicated process that is more than doing exercises on
demi-pointe (although it remains an imoortant part of it) : what does it take
then to develop the arch and the instep in a correct way ? What is this
complicated process you have mentioned ?
2) About the lower back :
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You gave (again ;-) ) a TRULY precious, gem)like information telling about the
tightening and the upwards pull of the lower back !
THANK YOU !
You said that this part of the lower back is in the area of the 5th (lumbar)
vertebra.
I dont want to overanalyze but would it be possible to get more precisions
please ?
Since I read about it, I have been searching so much, trying so hard to find
which are the muscles meant to be engaged but, as this part of the back is like a
big crossroad of all the back muscles where the abdominals ones also meet, I
couldnt find the answer to my question.
Could you please put me in the picture ? Are there precise muscles that need to
be engaged ?
I wanna be sure to understand to understand this statement in a correct way in
order for it to be effective and harmful : that is the reason why I am asking for
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more precise details.

3) About the pull-up :
In one of your answer to Ana, you offered to explain this mechanism more in
detail if we were interested.
Well, guess what, I am ! LOL ! :-)
Would you always agree to tell us please ?
According to my humble opinion (which is gonna remain humble as long as I
will not have taken a Vaganova teaching method course with an authority of the
Vaganova method such as Peggy Willis-Aarnio, which is something I dont know
if I will one day have the chance to do), here are some very important points of
the pull-up process :
* Tensed Achilles (thank you so much Peggy Willis-Aarnio ! ;-) )
* Stretched (lenghtened), engaged hamstrings
Never ever grip the quads to sraighten the knee. When the hamstrings are
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truly engaged, you can really get a true feel of what use the hamstrings to
straighten the knee means
* Stretched hips
Difficult to explain it with words : it is like stretching the muscles that are in
front of the hip not the sit in the hips
* Engaged core
Not just wrongly sucked in : the lower abs are engaged to keep the eplvis
upright, the transerve abdominal is engaged to tighten the abdomen and
pulling towards the spine in order to keep all the internal stuff (LOL) in place
and to control the center of gravity of the body, and the oblique abs are engaged
to bring the sides back near the core. The whole process is actually like a
lacing action, like if you were lacing a corset on you
* Engaged lower back
Since you told about this tightening and upwards pull of the lower back, I
have understood that it is a crucial part of the pull-up process. I may even say
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that, engaging the lower this way, one can REALLY feel that a very important
part of the pull-up process emanates from this action : it is indeed like this
action irradiates in ALL the body
* Consequent to engaged lower back, lenghtening of the spine
I do swear that it is the FIRST time I REALLY feel my spine lenghtening FOR
REAL and in a natural way (you dont have to force anything in order for it to
happen : when the lower back is engaged, it automatically happens)
* Lowered shoulders
I dont wanna pinch them together because I guess it is not the right way to
do as it causes tension in the shoulders which are to be relaxed and tensionfree. What I instead do is to pull the two lower pointy edges of the shoulder
blades towards the sacrum in order to keep the shoulders lowered
* Overall feeling of lifting out of the diffent parts of my body (you have to lift
yourself out of your hips in order not to sit in them, to lift the ribcage (I should
say the upper part of the body, over the waist because the ribcage does not
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have to protude in any way) out of your pelvis, the whole thing in order to
control the weight of your body to consequently give the limbs the required
space and freedom needed for the execution of the moves. Once again, it is
difficult to explain with words).
Please correct me if I am wrong : I am learning a lot with you ! :-)
And I hope sharing all this on your blog will also help the others to find the
answers they need.
4) And a last question about locked-out knees :
Did it ever happen to you, hen stadning on both legs with straght, locked-out
knees, not to be able to unlock the knees anymore ?
It is just like you are not able to bend the knee anymore as much as you have
locked them out to be perfectly straight.
What would you recommend in order to overcome this problem ?
A big THANK you for reading all my novel (LOL) and a big THANK YOU for
your future answers to all my questions ! :-)
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Greetings from Belgium ! :-)

Reply
Ill answer your questions in the same order as you asked :-)
1) What I mean by the complicated process of developing the arch and the
instep of the foot is simply the sum total of your classical ballet training under
a teacher who understands the method. So while demi-pointe is an important
exercise for developing the arch, you cant just do a gazillion repetitions of
releves on demi-pointe and expect to get the same results. What teachers
learn under this method is that every exercise has a time, place and quantity,
and all the exercises work TOGETHER to develop the body of a classical
dancer. Does that make sense?
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2) About developing the lower back, it is much the same as developing the
arch. It is simply that, when you train in this formulated way, you get better
results than if you trained in a haphazard way, in which each lesson is
dependent on the teachers mood, or which exercises he or she felt like giving
that day. To be honest, we only touched slightly on the lower back specifically
in the 1st Course with Dr. Peggy Willis-Aarnio, but I think it is not so
important to know the particular name of the muscle than it is to have the
correct feel, which really comes from having correct placement and executing
each exercise correctly. Bottom line: you really need a teacher to give you
hands-on corrections who knows the correct placement and the correct
execution (AND who knows which exercises to give you!). However, since you
dont have anyone like that in your area, I do think that continuing to read Dr.
Peggy Willis-Aarnios How to Teach books as they come out is the next best
thing.
3) Your understanding of pull-up seems correct to me, although I cant
actually see what you are doing of course. You put it into words very nicely,
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and that isnt easy to do!

4) Regarding locking-out the knees: Do you have hyper-extended legs? This is
the only case where I would be concerned about NOT locking-out the knees.
(In my case, I dont, so I have to work extra hard to straighten my legs.) The
goal with hyper-extended legs is to keep them straight and pulled-up, but not
to over-extend them. Since I dont have personal experience with this, I am
trying it out on my elbows (which are hyper-extended) and I am finding that
they can be straight and taught without being over-extended. Hmmm Im
not sure why you arent able to unlock your knees, but my suggestion to you
is to experiment with it a little and see if you can find that sweet spot. Also,
practice standing in first position with your heels absolutely together and see
if you can maintain that position in your knees when you go to battement
tendu. In other words, your knees shouldnt extend further when you
battement tendu: they should have the same level of straightness as they
did when you were in first.
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Hope that helps!

Mary
Reply
Ana on February 6, 2012 at 2:51 pm said:
Hi Mary,
I am not exactly sure what you mean by grande battement tendu jete (ballet
terminology tends to vary slightly from school to school), but using a grande
battement to stretch sounds pretty dangerous. That would be a ballistic stretch,
exactly what Lisa Howell warns against in bouncing stretches. I pulled a
hamstring doing grande battements when I was 11 and that strand of muscle is
still, twenty years later, the first thing to tighten after I stop training.
Again, I am not sure what you mean, but I wanted to clear that up.
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I really like this site on stretching silly anim guy, but quite helpful and
organized: http://www.flashmavi.com/stretching.shtml
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Mary on February 7, 2012 at 2:31 pm said:
Dear Ana,
Grand battement tendu jete is the correct term in the Russian school for
grand battement. The reason you say battement TENDU JETE, instead of
just battement, is because there are other steps that are battements. That is,
a battment is a whole category of steps which beat, or have an opening
and a closing. Battement TENDU is a stretched beating. Battement tendu
JETE is a stretched beating which is thrown (also known as degage). And
of course, a GRAND battement tendu jete is a BIG battement tendu jete (by
the way: in the method of teaching classical ballet, you dont ever go higher
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than 90 degrees for the first year and a half to two years).
You are absolutely right that ballistic stretches (stretches that bounce) are
NOT good for you! The grand battement tendu jete is never a ballistic stretch,
however, (unless it is performed incorrectly!) since the leg is thrown with
CONTROL and while being completely pulled-up (pulling up, or a complete
tightening of the legs, protects you from overstretching your muscles I can
explain the mechanism behind this in more detail if you are interested, or
perhaps in a future post).
What Lisa Howell means by ballistic stretches are those where you are
sitting relaxed on the floor, as in a static stretch, but you are making small
bouncing movements in order to get deeper into the stretch. This is VERY
bad for you because it is not only damaging by making little micro tears in the
muscle tissue, but it also desensitizes you to the feeling of pain, and you will
be more susceptible to a big injury. You do get more flexible this way, but only
because your brain is numbed to the natural (healthy) stretch inhibitory
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response. This is why people have so many surgeries today because they are
doing stuff like this! Ballet never ever EVER includes such erroneous kinds of
stretching!!!
Does that help clear it up?
Mary
P.S. I just looked at that website with the stretches He includes a
description of ballistic stretching and advocates them 3-4 times per week,
which is exactly what you SHOULDNT EVER be doing (and what Lisa Howell
is warning against):
http://www.flashmavi.com/stretching_ballistic_stretching.shtml I am also
not sure why he says that you can do static stretches daily, while you should
only do dynamic stretches 4 to 5 times per week. Dynamic stretches are much
much safer for you than static stretches because they involve one muscle
group stretching while the opposing muscle group contracts (this is what
protects you from injury). In static stretches, both muscle groups are relaxed,
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and physiologists and kinesiologists say that this kind of stretching weakens
your muscles and works by numbing you to the pain, like I described above.
Where is he getting his information from, I wonder? It certainly does not
agree with the current scientific studies I have read so far, anyhow.
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Ana on February 2, 2012 at 7:06 am said:
Hi Mary,
I live in Germany, actually, which is why I post at funky times. There is a
wonderful ballet culture here that surprised me I always thought that the best
ballet came from Russian and Western Europe is more like America if I am
allow to critique my homeland, I find our dancers often lack the clean lines and,
especially, the turnout that they require. But I was pleasantly surprised
perhaps not all of the Western European dancers are Lucia Lacarra (our
Spanish prima here in Munich, who rivals any Kirov trainee) but their technique
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is quite solid, and quite turned out.

Since the publication of those two books which I will order, thank you for
your recommendations! legs have gotten a lot higher. In order for students to
be competitive nowadays, they have to get their legs to their ears and hold it.
You can see this in the Prix de Lausanne competition photos, which are all over
the internet now as the competition is going on these weeks. Some people
credit (blame?) Balanchine, who taught his dancers to relax the hips in order to
create a more dramatic illusion (as in, raise the working side even if it throws off
the hips.) The Kirov now requires high legs now as well although they generally
insist that the hips do not move as long as possible, until the femur bone meets
the pelvis bone and the hip must give (http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=vMSZyZoB6y8&feature=related). Sort of like the grand pli, and how they
insist upon the heels sticking until the last possible moment. This is most
difficult to the back, where many dancers incorrectly learn to tilt open their hips
as early as the tendu (turnout derrire is the most difficult to achieve and the
heel sticking up which happens until turnout comes is quite appalling to the
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dancer who has been used to looking at her instep).

The best way to get the legs to the ears is to stretch well through the over splits
(an example midway through http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=QVTBisBKtv0) and learn to hold the legs from an extended position for
several seconds before slowly lowering it. Contrary to the turnout, where the
strength to hold it is more difficult than the flexibility, good extension is harder
achieving in terms of flexibility. Once you have the flexibility, holding your leg is
merely a matter of manually articulating the up position, and practicing with
the hold (much of which relies on the strength of the standing hip, as a branch
relies on a tree trunk). There is a great passage in Makarovas autobiography
about her going to sleep in the splits often when she was younger, one leg
wrapped around her head.
This sort of stuff I learned from personal experience. Margot Fonteyn extension
is no longer marketable.
I dont know exactly what flat feet would be good for, although I heard
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Vaganova liked them. But I think a lot of people get confused when ballet
mentions good arches because the arch of the foot medically how high the
bottom of the foot is raised from the ground when standing is different than
the ballet arch the curve it achieves from the top of the ankle through the top
of the toes. (http://images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/25000000/beautifulsvetlana-svetlana-zakharova-25030876-650-483.jpg) I have a very high arch
medically, but my ballet arch, unfortunately, is quite limited.
I still think that students who are serious about ballet need to stretch out their
balletic arch before age 10, when the bones start to harden. If you pull on the
foot before pressing down the toes, it will avert the danger of jamming the
ankle. We used to have our classmates standing on our toes, or we would loop
some ribbons over a plank to make a makeshift arch stretcher. I was late to this
contraption, unfortunately. Maya Plisetskaya thinks that people without good
feet (like myself) shouldnt try to force unnatural positions through severe foot
stretchers, and that we should leave the ballet dreams to those who are
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naturally endowed. A harsh idea, and perhaps she is right. But it is common
knowledge in Russian that the ballet mothers are very successful at stretching
out the ballet arches of their daughters from infancy on. An ugly thought, but
true.
I still think that arch stretchers (http://www.footstretch.com/), carefully used
according to instructions, are a very good idea for someone who needs extra
help. Obviously, stretches arent enough without matching strength training
learning to point their toes until it causes spasms during tendus, and, most
importantly, pointing while en point!
Demi pointe, from what I recall, was not helpful for stretching out the ballet
arch of the foot, although a splendid exercise for stretching out the medical
arch
It is interesting what you say about softening the knee. I think you are on to
something! I am thinking that it has to do with how they straighten the knee
and how they accomplish turnout. I already mentioned that I learned to anchor
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my turn out from second position by squeezing my knees inward using my

inner thigh my adductors, to be specific. I have also noticed more recently,
while exploring what I remember, that I can turn out in fifth the same way,
providing I develop the turnout adductor muscles tight enough. In this way,
my fifth is not only straining to turn out, which give the knees more room to
close, but it is quite stable as the back knee is still locked, but from the inside. I
have noticed that this method of straightening the knee from the inside is
gentler on the knee in general, which can twist softly without the lock of the
quads impinging it.
Here is my latest find on you tube: a class with Joy Womack, an American, who
is now studying at the Bolshoi. You can still see that her turnout isnt as
strongly rooted as some Russian dancers in the center exercises, but she is
quite beautiful with what she has. http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=DIBgTcE-83M
So far, I have found Natalie Makarovas autobiography to be the most helpful
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because she is very conscious of the differences between American and

Vaganova training and how it plays out in their relative success. I was surprised
to learn that it was more than superior technique, and that, in fact, the most
important aspect of dancing for the Kirov had nothing to do with the body at all,
but rather the soul. In her opinion, the major difference between Russian and
Western training is that the Americans train the steps only, teaching the dancer
to execute rather than dance. This was exactly the reverse at the Vagonova
school, where the expression of the soul in dance far outweighed the technical
merits. Yet, to render perfect expression to the soul demanded perfect
technique, which is what inspired them toperfect turnout, apparently.
Vaganovas expertise, of course, had something to do with it too;-)
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I would love to visit Germany someday! I studied German in college

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and loved it.

Yes, I hear what you are saying that extensions today are higher than they
were 50 years ago (although the first book I recommended was actually
published very recently, in 2009). However, I feel very comfortable saying
that the method Vaganova founded is just as relevant today as it was then, in
regard to extensions and otherwise. The reason I am so confident is that I
understand how it works and I have seen it work, and I know that the
scientific community agrees with those principles.
The way that you get high extensions in ballet is complicated, because it
involves all of the MANY forms and rules. I may post an article about this
because this is a question I get asked a lot. People are very concerned with
being competitive in todays worldwhich I completely understand!but the
truth is that these practices of extreme static stretching (like what Makarova
did), or using various contraptions or partners to stretch, are potentially very
harmful as well as unnecessary when one has the proper training. The proper
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ballet training, of course, involves lots of stretching: but certain kinds of

stretches at certain times. It takes at least a year or two to develop extension,
and this is done in part by, a) having turn-out, b) the grande battement tendu
jete exercise, and c) releve lent at 90 degrees only for at least the first year
and a half of training. But again, that is only part of the story.
Similarly, developing the archwhich is, as you correctly stated, the top of the
foot, not the underside (thats called the instep)is a complicated process,
and it is more than just doing exercises on demi pointe, although that is an
important part of it, as Kostrovitskaya said. By the students 3rd year, all
exercises at the barre and in the center (except plie and rond de jambe par
terre) are done on demi pointe. I certainly never had this kind of training
before! By the way, there is another exercise which develops the instep
when it is executed properly (although it very commonly isnt).
People with flatter feet are better jumpers. Have you ever noticed this? It is
remarkably true, when you think about it, and I remember the drastic
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differences in the natural jumping quality of my fellow students. Of course,

the ideal foot would lie somewhere in between. Perhaps it is more important
to focus on how you train what you have, though people with flat feet can
potentially develop some arch and people with very arched feet can
strengthen (particularly if they do that exercise I was talking about.)
Thank you for the video of Joy Womack. I have been interested in her,
because I know she got very seriously injured while she was out there and I
am curious to know what happens to her. I hope she stays well!
Reply
Ana on February 1, 2012 at 1:42 pm said:
Hi Mary,
I would love to know your sources, yes. I have been looking, frustrated, by the
lack of pedagogical method in regards to developing turnout.
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In regards to the perfect fifth, yes, I would love to know more. In my mind, I
think it is the turn out that needs to come first in the priority sense turnout
being the thing that gives the knees room to close without grinding each other.
But, to develop turn out, I think the knees need to be striving to straighten
anyway straightening from the adductors (inner thighs) as they strain to turn
the leg out.
I was thinking about it a bit more today and I had a revelation to further my
thing about the Russian port de bras and why I say that its like the torso is free
from the hips. Western dancers try to hold their hips because of their weak
turnout too much with their abs. Turnout, when properly trained, comes
exclusively from the hips, allowing the torso to move freely without disrupting
the control of the hips. It goes against all the conceptions I ever learned in
ballet that there is only one proper torso, period. In fact, Natalie Makarova, in
her autobiography (which you would probably love), talks about this on page
122 romantic ballets (like Giselle) requiring a free-floating torso and
classical ballets (like Swan Lake) requiring that torso is absolutely straight.
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The arms, too, vary according to her, depending on the mood and the voice the
dancer is trying to convey in her kinetic aria
I am writing a novel based on my experience in ballet, and I have been
experiencing a bit of a ballet renaissance the autobiographies I find are most
helpful. I already finished Deborah Bulls ballet books, Gelsey Kirklands two
autobiographies (the second one particularly fascinating!), Natalie Makarovas,
and I just started Maya Plisetskayas. Did you know Maya danced and even
improved her technique until she was over 70?!?
I am not a teacher, but if I were to teach, I think I would focus on just three
things for the first years turnout, obviously the most important, extension,
and feet. The feet I would stress especially for younger children, whose bones
and ligaments are not all the way fused, and can still be molded. I know that is
counter to all the parents concerned with injuries, but I have never heard of a
dancer getting injured by carefully, firmly, stretching out the arch. On the other
hand, lousy feet caused me to get chronic achilles tendonitis, and, ultimately,
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spelled out my balletic doom. Good arches are necessary for easing the strain of
the tendon en pointe getting the box under the leg. So good feet, stretching
the arch, but, also, learning to use good arches all the way pointing from both
the achilles and the muscles under the foot, straining as hard as possible.
People that say that good arches are mere aesthetics make me angry very
untrue, and very dangerous to little girls dreams.
Sorry about all the tangental rambling. I browsed your blog after my last post
(learning that it was you in that video!) and I love all the questions you are
asking and exploring. They are exactly the sort of things I think about. And I
have toddlers too extremely helpful during stretching sessions when they
jump on my head;-)
Reply

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Ha ha!! Yes, toddlers are so helpful with all their bouncing around and
climbing on top of mommy jungle gym. ;-)
I love the questions you are asking too; very interesting things to think about!
I just posted about the turn-out from fifth, which hopefully explains the
distinction. Its not a bending at the knee, rather a slight softening (for lack
of a better word) which allows the space to turn-out. Some people will need to
do this more than others, especially in the beginning when the student is just
developing the turn-out muscles. What you said is right: the first priority is
to turn-out, although not without the proper stance of course, which includes
pulling up with all your might on both legs at all times. So you are striving for
a straight leg as much as possible, but in the case of 5th position it is often
impossible to have the knee in a fully locked-out position.
I think you are on to something about the torso, which really is an important
part of the dancers makeup. I just learned, and am beginning to notice
myself, that there is a big difference between the torsos of dancers who have
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been trained this way (the Russian dancers from the era of Baryshnikov) and
dancers who have not. The difference is that, by turning-out (and all the
correct posture that comes with turning out), the lower back becomes highly
developed and strengthened. The lower back is what holds the torso strong,
and as Kostrovitskaya said in her book, School of Classical Dance (the original
textbook of the Vaganova School), lower back strength is most important. She
says,
For the execution of most of the movements that have been described in this
book, stability (aplomb) is essential.
The centre of balance is in the spine, A.Y. Vaganova said in her book, Basic
Principles of Classical Ballet.
Defining this in more detail, it should be added that, for the stability of the
body, the one most important thing is the gradual development of the small
but very strong muscles in the small of the back, approximately in the area of
the fifth vertebra.
Precisely this part of the back (with lowered shoulders and shoulder blades)
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must be felt by the dancer as if tightened and pulled upwards.

While in the first year it is not recommended that the small of the back be
pulled up too strongly (for this can lead to an undesirable caving in of the
back), in the following years, a well-developed back not only helps to provide
stability in the poses and in tours on the floor and in the air, but makes
possible a thorough mastery of the movements of the body as well. For the
complicated work of the torso which consists of harmonious transitions from
one pose to another, small inclinations and bends in the adagio, in the barre
and centre exercise, in allegro, and in movements on pointe, furthers a more
complete mastery of the whole complex of dance movements and,
consequently, permits the development of technique and a high artistic
quality of execution.
She then goes on to say that development of technique doesnt mean fast
chaines or a great number of fouettes. REAL technique is only when the
body, arms, and head of the dancer become the means by which the language
of dance is expressed and are responsive to every emotion. There is so much
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in this book, I could just go on and on about it!

Speaking of books, the resources I recommend for learning teaching method
are from Dr. Peggy Willis-Aarnio (perhaps you have read some of my articles
about her?). For understanding turn-out, I would highly recommend her first
book in a new series called, How To Teach: The First 3 Days (go to my
Shop page for info on how to order). Obviously, I also recommend School
of Classical Dance by Vera Kostrovitskaya and Alexei Pisarev. For the highest
level of detail, we host teachers courses. I dont know if you are still dancing
at all after your achilles tendonitis, but if you are this would help you by
teaching you how to give yourself lessons following the method. We are
working on the possibility of a tour this summer, and possibly a course as
early as this spring, so if you are interested in having Dr. Willis-Aarnio come
to your area, please let me know.
About the arch of the foot: this is developed by strength + stretching, which
you understand since you correctly said that the muscles of the foot and the
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achilles need to be fully stretched. In other words, the development of the

foot comes from exercises that develop strength at the same time as
stretching out the foot (for example, exercises on demi pointe). Merely trying
to stretch out your foot without pulling up through the foot is very dangerous
as it can cause the tendons and ligaments to stretch (which, once stretched,
will never regain their original elasticity, which is needed for jumps.) You are
right that good arches are needed for getting up on pointe. Flatter feet are
good for something too, though have you noticed what that is?
Regarding extension, Kostrovitskaya says in her book that the grand
battement tendu jete exercise is what develops extension by actively
promoting the elasticity of the muscles and tendons of the inside of the thigh
and increasing the mobility of the hip joint (these, she says, are the two main
factors in the acquirement of extension). Again, like with the feet, the grand
battement tendu jete exercise is an ACTIVE throwing of the leg, not a passive,
static stretch, and therefore develops flexibility at the same time as strength.
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Please let me know how you like Maya Plisetskayas autobiography. I havent
read it but would love to when I get the time: what a remarkable dancer!!
Mary
Reply
Ana on January 30, 2012 at 3:33 am said:
I meant to include this video of Svetlana Zakharova in class to illustrate

what I mean by the extraordinary turnout of Russian dancers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAwWu-AVdwg.
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Dear Ana,
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I agree with you that turn-out is the reason dancers develop long, balanced
muscles. It is as you said: When you are turned-out, you must fully engage
the proper muscles in order to balance. Turning in, even slightly, does not
allow the dancer to find her center (as Vaganova put it in her book). Its like
cheating: a pedestrian way. If you train in this way you will never develop the
muscles properly and you will have to start all over.
This is why, in the method of training which Vaganova founded, the student
is instructed to turn-out from Day 2. The thought that learning turn-out is a
gradual, or incremental, process is a misconception: It is NOT a gradual
process (although those who truly cannot turn-out on Day 2 will likely be able
to improve if they use their fullest turn-out possible). The gradual process is
in developing the strength to HOLD turn-out in all of the exercises at the
barre and in the center.
To give an example: What is the purpose of the battement tendu exercise
(which is, as you correctly stated, repeated without combination in the
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beginning)? It is to develop and reinforce turn-out. If the student does not

execute her battement tendus at the barre in a turned-out position from the
beginning (on Day 2), she will be doing the exercise incorrectly, it will not
serve its true purpose, and she will only have to go back later and learn it all
over again.
This method, which was used by the Russians in the Soviet Era, details
exactly how to turn-out; there is no need to figure it out all over again. If you
are interested in learning this method, I can direct you to the definitive
resources. By the way, the lady asking the question on the video is me; this
was back before I had access to these resources and before I took a teachers
course. I have since learned the correct answer to that question, which is a
little more complicated than simply, you must have both. I can explain
more, if you are interested.
Thank you for the comment!
Mary
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Ana on January 30, 2012 at 3:26 am said:
I studied Vaganova, culminating in a summer at the Kirov in DC when I

was 17 not much for a career pinnacle, but I was fascinated by the Russian
technique and thrilled to observe it in such close quarters. When you see a
Russian dancer from the side, even in first or fifth, you are looking at the top of
their quadraceps their gluts are merely curves that recede deep into their
hips. Compared to the bulk and knotted appearance of Western trained hips
and thighs, theirs were smaller and smoother. It is like their turnout muscles
are so lengthened that they flow down a turned out position as lightly and easily
as ribbons from a maypole.
I think this extraordinary turn out is the key to their noticably cleaner line,
more efficient use of energy, as well as their stability, extension, etc. etc.
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Like you, I puzzled endlessly over how they did it how they managed to grip
the turnout muscles so well. It was obvious that they were trained to
muscularly engage the turn out from the hips, even in fifth. Natural
flexibility doesnt give you those muscles, and everyone knows what happens
when you are straining to turn out from the hips in first position absolutely
nothing.
I think I figured out a method to it. It seconds what George talks about with
dynamic rotation as your legs spread, and what Vaganova says about how the
aim of plies in second position are to develop the turn-out of the hips (p.
19 in the Dover version). I discovered it in class by accident, when I was trying

to straighten my knees (not from plie but from a relaxed standing) in second
position. I had noticed that the Russian dancers dont straighten their knees
using their quads as much as their hamstrings, thus avoiding the boxy thighs.
So, standing in second, pulling up, legs straight, I squeezed the knees inward
using my inner thigh muscles. That is when I felt the loosening and external
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rotation of the hips.

I held that position, and squeezed with all my might to some how impress upon
my muscle memory the shape and existence of these turn-out muscles.
They were conveniently sore for the following few days. It took awhile,
strengthening these, disengaging the others, looking for these good muscles in
other positions, finding them and strengthening them there too. It takes a lot
work, but from these muscles, if you insist upon them, search for them
obsessively, they will eventually straighten your hips out, even in fifth.
As I worked through them over time, I learned that it is as if you are
disengaging all other hip muscles. It helps me to find these muscles more
intensely, for instance, if I imagine that I am lengthening out of my hips. In
short, it means intense retraining, which is why it is so difficult for Western
dancers to achieve.
It wont work, for instance, if you take this exercise out of context of proper
ballet posture, or fail to work these muscles, carefully, slowly, into the rest of
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your ballet class, especially in fifth position. Russian ballet starts out extremely
slow, extremely repetitive (you memorize the class in early levels instead of
memorizing new combinations so that you can focus on the how rather than the
what), and Russians wont advance you until you have mastered the easy
stuff like plies. Mastering, of course, entails 180 degree turnout, dominated
by a firm grip on turned out hips. As Vaganova said, it is better to do one step 8
times rather than eight new steps once.
Two Russian training experiences stay with me. Alla Sizova, who was my
teacher that summer, taught me to lean back so far in my posture that I felt like
I was falling backwards. But it wasnt back. It was up. Up up up! Up until you
think you are going to fall backwards. If you can manage this intense posture
even in one set of plies, you core abdomen muscles, among others, will strain
hard. Especially in plies, this posture forces turnout simply to keep your
balance turned out knees acting as a counterbalance to your turned out
torso. I think this is the secret related to the Kirov port de bras. I see a lot of
American torsos squeezed and knotted with tension. Torsos should be knitted
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tightly by iron core muscles, but, within these muscles, they should feel free,
not tense.
Mme. Dellas, another Kirov teacher who periodically gave Master Classes to my
home studio, was extremely strict to the point that you were terrified of her.
She wasnt Russian, but she managed that particular Russian teacher
aura very effectively. She got so angry at our lousy fifth positions one class
that she made us stand in fifth for five minutes straight, straining as hard as we
possibly could. Harder! Harder! We all thought we were going to die by the
second minute, sweating profusely. My fifth position was markedly improved
ever since, and, in one of my legs in particular, those turn out muscles got
anchored.
That lady on the video was asking if it is more important to keep the knees
straight or the foot turned out, and the Russian answer is absolutely yes to
both. If a dancer is not straining hard to achieve a fifth in all of its perfection,
then they have no business in ballet. Ballet is hard and dancers must strain for
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utter perfection because correct ballet is just that.

Reply
Nicole on December 20, 2011 at 6:56 pm said:
Since I was at a begining level, Ive been taking ballet lessons from a
teacher who trained at the vaganova ballet school in Russia. She constantly
pedtered me about how my legs are never turned out. It has always been a
problem for me and in the past couple years its really stood out. I have great
natural hip felxibility but for some reason when I use my turn out in class, no
matter how hard I try I can never reach the perfect 180 degree turn out. Some
of my dance friends think that I can turnout great from the hips, but from my
knees down my legs turn in. Is this an accurate conclusion I should come to? If
so, how do I deal with it?
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Mary on December 22, 2011 at 9:18 am said:
Hello Nicole,
I think I know exactly how you feel. It is sometimes very easy to turn-out at
the hips (like in passe), but when it comes to standing in a turned-out
position it can seem so difficult!
Turn-out is the sum total of turn-out it the hips, knees and ankles. Most of
the turn-out comes from the hips, so since you dont have trouble with this
part then you are probably mostly there! It may be possible that you arent
turning out enough from the knees down. It could also be that you havent
been taught how to turn-out correctly, meaning you havent developed the
strength to hold your turn-out. It takes a lot of time to learn how to hold your
turn-out (although, with the correct instruction, you should be able to stand
in a turned-out position at the barre right away).
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Would you like to send me a picture of your current turn-out? I might be able
to help you a bit that way. I would also recommend that you try reading Dr.
Peggy Willis-Aarnios book, How To Teach, Book 1: Introduction and the
First Three Days which gives a detailed description of how to turn-out (on
the second day of training) with photos.
Thanks for the great question,
Mary
Reply
George Ou on October 17, 2011 at 3:06 am said:
I started ballet at 21. Previously a bodybuilder and highschool football

player.
I started with 60 degrees turnout which was very difficult for me. After 3
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months of stretching (you can count on football player work ethic), I was up to
150 degrees. After 2 years, I was at 180 degrees in first position. After 3 years, I
had a high passe with toes above kneecap and was flat as a pancake, and I
looked like this.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/86883044@N00/1920096344
Recent photos
Reply
Mary on October 19, 2011 at 8:10 am said:
Hi George,
Thank you for sharing your experience with turn-out and those photos! I am
always interested to hear how other people get to 180 degrees.
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Which was the hardest aspect for you? Stretching to get more rotation, or
strength-building to hold the turn-out?
Thanks again for your comment,
Mary
Reply
George Ou on October 20, 2011 at 3:48 am said:
The first thing I attacked was flexibility and a lot can be accomplished
by a body that would have never made the cut in Russian or Chinese
Vagonova schools. Im not particularly impressed with students who are
naturals at it because they never worked for it and their experience is of no
help to most of the prospective dancers.
I sat in the V and took deep breaths and dropping my face forward towards
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the floor. I started with my body straight up (which was the most forward I
could go) and after 30 minutes of breathing where I dropped a millimeter
on every exhale but didnt come up on inhale, I could eventually touch my
head to the floor by curving the back after 3 months. I would also keep my
legs rotated out as I leaned forward and that increased my outward
rotation. But I had to stretch at least 30 minutes for the first 2 years before
ballet class to achieve this extreme change to my body. It took 3 years
before it got easier without such a long pre-class stretch. It took 4 years for
me to achieve a perfectly flat frog position laying on my stomach.
Now as for strength, that was built as I worked in a more rotated position
than I could possibly hold while cold. I always stretched before class to
make sure that I could do the barre and class in as rotated and open and
flat a position as possible.
The other key thing to understand about turn out is that we have more hip
socket rotation as the legs separate. Even very turned out girls lose hip
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rotation as they get to first, and even more so in fifth. But dancers can use
rotation below the knee socket safely by not using knee or ankle socket
rotation, but using the twisting action of the tibia and fibula. These two
pairs of bones in the lower leg can twist around each other much like the
two bones in the forearm twist to allow our hands to rotate 180 degrees.
The tibia and fibula in my limited ability can rotate 26 degrees
http://www.flickr.com/photos/86883044@N00/6179972815. Diana
Vishneva can pull off 80 degrees (yikes)
Even in your video where you were asking a question and that very flexible
little girl was in a tight 5th with toes to heel, she relied on rotation below
the knee socket. Her knees were only about 120 degrees rotated out but her
foot was 180 degrees rotated out.
Now when the dancer plies in 5th, the hip socket opens and can rotate
more. This allows the knees to swing out more and safely go over the toes.
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As the knees straighten, the hip rotation will go down and the dancer
reverts to below-the-knee rotation which many teachers shun. But
realistically, all high level dancers use below-the-knee rotation to some
degree or another and its easy to verify if you measure the knee rotation
versus foot rotation.
This concept of dynamically changing turnout is crucial. This is why I can
work in a perfectly flat seconde position despite having difficulty in a fifth
position. As the thighs separate, I increase rotation and shoot my legs
straight out to the side.
Mary on October 20, 2011 at 8:51 am said:
Hi George,
Very interesting concept of dynamically changing turn-out. I never
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thought about it that way before, although I do agree that there is some
rotation that comes from the knees and ankles. (Vaganova says in her book
that turn-out is the sum of the rotation of the hip, knee, and ankles.) Thank
you for the very interesting comment! I will ponder that for a while
Mary
George Ou on October 20, 2011 at 4:34 pm said:
Dynamic rotation of the hip socket is the reason we can rotate more
standing in 2nd position than 5th. Most of us can go well beyond 180 in 2nd
or even 1st position but 5th is very difficult. And when the working leg is
straight out to the side, some flexible dancers can even rotate the heel
completely towards the front while most of us can rotate a little more
towards the front.
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Look in your own video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fu3ZXgF3msQ

at the 20 second mark when you pull the girls right toe back to touch her
left heel. Observe how the knee didnt turn out any more even though the
foot rotated more. Most of that last bit of rotation that allowed toes to
touch heels came from the foot. Now if this didnt cause a lot of torque on
her ankle and knees, and probably didnt since it looked effortless, thats
fine. That works because she has a high range of rotation below the knee
whereas I would be screaming in pain if you did that to me.
Also, the reason dancers cheat with a softened knee is that it allows the hip
to open a bit and the dynamically increasing rotation takes effect. When we
soften the knee or plie, we have much more rotation from the hip socket.
When we go to a fully crossed 5th, we have the least hip rotation. So when
Conrad says to work more in 1st and stay straight and drawn up, this works
because the hips isnt as crossed and have more rotation. But I would also
make an alternative suggestion which is to work in a slightly less crossed
5th with full 180 rotation and fully straightened knee socket. Then work to
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cross more as much as possible while maintaining full rotation until the
body reaches its genetic potential.
Personally, I think the fully crossed and fully rotated 180 5th is overrated.
Most dancers (even Kirov) dont use all of it when they actually dance.
Example would be standing leg in passe or both legs in Bourre.
A professional dancer will be judged more on his/her legs in seconde,
passe, arabesque or back attitude, front attitude or straight. I dont have a
tight 5th, but I take full advantage of dynamic rotation and worked to
strengthen these positions. That gives me a completely flat high passe and I
have more front attitude rotation and back attitude rotation than most
girls.
Dmitri Roudnev on May 6, 2011 at 7:25 pm said:

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Hello Mary
I am here, with the most of what you have interest in.
Sincerely
Dmitri Roudnev
Reply
Mary on May 6, 2011 at 10:53 pm said:
Hello Dmitri,
Thank you! I would be most grateful for your help in understanding this
matter of turn-out.
For instance, does the Vaganova method demand 180 degrees from the very
beginning (even when the student does not naturally possess such perfect
turn-out)? My understanding is that students in the Vaganova method are
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placed in 180 degrees from the very start, although developing the muscles to
correctly maintain their turn-out as they stand and move is a process. Is that
true?
Thank you very much and please feel free to comment as much as you like!
Reply
Dmitri Roudnev on May 8, 2011 at 3:22 pm said:
Yes, that is true ballet training in Russia requires to start with 180
degree feet position.
What is interesting that Vaganova insists on beginning to learn most of
ballet steps starting to the side then to the front and back. There are no
explanations for the reason.
Sincerely
Dmitri Roudnev
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Mary on May 9, 2011 at 2:57 pm said:
Very interesting! I didnt know that about teaching steps to the side
before front and back. Maybe it has to do with learning not to sit in the hip
because it is somewhat easier to correct to the side?
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Dealing With Less Than Perfect Turn-Out

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Deliver these articles to your

Last time in our discussion on Vaganova in America, we read from Agrippina

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School of Washington, D.C., however I thought it would be a good idea to look at

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What Muscles Should Be Used To Maintain

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should absolutely be maintained by the gluteus muscles. (Since this is an issue of

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How Is Turn-Out Assessed?

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Warren Describes The Controversy Of Turn-Out

There is a great deal of controversy in the ballet world

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training), it is sometimes possible to increase slightly the

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Why I Dont Entirely Agree

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ligaments, aponeuroses, and tendons, fasciae are dense regular connective

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Hi, I'm Mary Fernandez! I'm a

To quote material, kindly:

Is 180 Degree Turn-Out Really Necessary?

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And that is what you should NOT do

37 thoughts on Dealing With Less Than Perfect Turn-Out

I am glad to hear the different opinions about turnout. At my studio, we

Mary on February 13, 2013 at 10:56 am said:

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ANGELICA on May 3, 2012 at 8:45 am said:

Indeed, it is, Mary ! :( :(

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Ana on April 27, 2012 at 2:07 am said:

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Mary on April 30, 2012 at 12:58 pm said:

Ana- Wow, that is some pretty horrible history!

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ANGELICA on April 25, 2012 at 8:04 am said:

ANSWER TO ANAS COMMENT FROM APRIL 13 :

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because Ballet IS conquering ones body : it is about to learn the right

Ana on April 16, 2012 at 2:20 pm said:

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being so gracious about it!!

inachevs ethereally sketched in the air, as if testing its density. The

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it in the repertoire, so to speak able to pull it into certain movements

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