<b>thanks for your long explanation and also for making things clear.

you have given me one view and i, the other.

and both are from the same scriptures.

I AM SORRY I CANNOT REPLY YOU. YOU HAVE JUMPED ALL

OVER MY REPLY.

YOU HAVE CHERRY PICKED WHATEVER YOU WANTED TO

REPLY AND EVEN MISQUOTED ME. SO LET'S LEAVE IT AT
THAT.

however, i will present the following as i understand it. so please take time
to read the text and the context

IT INCLUDES THE PSALM OF DAVID, VERSES FROM THE

GOSPELS AND HEBREWS AND ARCHEOLOGICAL/HISTORICAL
RECORDS.

[Psalms 20:1 KJV]

The LORD hear thee in the day of trouble;
THE NAME OF THE GOD OF JACOB DEFEND THEE;
^^^^^^^^^
[Psalms 20:2 KJV]
SEND THEE HELP FROM THE SANCTUARY,
^^^^^^^
and strengthen thee out of Zion;

DIVINE HELP FOR THE CHRIST--MESSIAH -- ANOINTED

[Psalms 20:6 KJV]

Now know I that the LORD saveth his anointed - christ--messiah;
^^^^^^
he will hear him
^^
from his holy heaven
with the saving strength
^^^^^^^^
of his right hand.
^^^^^^--
fufilled in jesus christ

ADDITIONAL PSALMS
^^^^^^^^^^
I SHALL NOT DIE, BUT LIVE
but he hath not given me
over unto death
^^^^^^^

(Psalms 118:17 ERRB)

I shall not die, but live,
and declare scribe
the works of the LORD Yah .

(Psalms 118:18 ERRB)

In disciplining,
The LORD Yah hath
chastened disciplined me sore :
but he hath not given me
over unto death.
^^^^^^

COMPARE THE EVENTS IN JESUS CHRIST'S LIFE AS WELL

^^^^^^^^^

(Hebrews 5:7 KJV)

WHO IN THE DAYS OF HIS FLESH,
when he had offered up prayers
and supplications
with strong crying and tears

UNTO HIM THAT WAS ABLE TO

SAVE HIM FROM DEATH,
^^^^^
AND WAS HEARD IN THAT HE FEARED;
^^^^^^^^

(Hebrews 5:8 KJV)

Though he were a Son,
YET LEARNED he obedience
BY THE THINGS WHICH HE SUFFERED;
^^^^^^^^^^

note
JESUS CHRIST DID NOT DIE,
BUT LIKE DAVID BEFORE HIM,
HE ALSO SUFFERED AT THE
HANDS OF HIS ENEMIES.

HOWEVER, NO DEAD PERSON EVER LEARNS

OBEDIENCE, SAY, AFTER HIS DEATH.
^^^^

Though he were a Son,

YET LEARNED he obedience
BY THE THINGS WHICH HE SUFFERED;
UNWILLING SACRIFICE or suicide

(Hebrews 5:7 KJV)

Who in the days of his flesh,
when he had offered up
PRAYERS AND SUPPLICATIONS
WITH STRONG CRYING AND TEARS
UNTO HIM

· THAT WAS ABLE

· TO SAVE HIM FROM DEATH,
· AND WAS HEARD
· in that he feared;

HIS GREATEST FEAR

^^^

Then saith he unto them,

MY SOUL IS
^^^
exceeding sorrowful,
even unto death:
^^^
(Matthew 26:38 KJV)
And saith unto them,
MY SOUL IS
EXCEEDING SORROWFUL
UNTO DEATH:
tarry ye here,
and watch.

(Mark 14:34 KJV)

YESHUA WAS AFRAID TO DIE A SPIRITUAL DEATH.
^^^

HIS SOUL WAS EXCEEDINGLY SORROWFUL UNTO DEATH.

^^

compare
the spirit indeed is willing,
BUT THE FLESH IS WEAK.
^^^

1. YAH SHUA'S SOUL WAS WEAK AND HIS FLESH WAS WEAK.
2. HIS SOUL WAS EXCEEDINGLY SORROWFUL UNTO
DEATH.
(Matthew 26:41 KJV)
Watch ye and pray,
lest ye enter into temptation.

The spirit truly is ready,

BUT THE FLESH IS WEAK.
^^^^^^^^

(Mark 14:38 KJV)

Saying, Father,
if thou be willing,
REMOVE THIS CUP FROM ME:
nevertheless not my will,
but thine, be done.

(Luke 22:42 KJV)

And there appeared
AN ANGEL UNTO HIM
FROM HEAVEN,
STRENGTHENING HIM.
^^^^^^^^

(Luke 22:43 KJV)

AND BEING IN AN AGONY
HE PRAYED MORE EARNESTLY:
and his sweat was
as it were great drops of blood
falling down to the ground.
^^^^^^^^^

(Luke 22:44 KJV) -

(ref: Hebrews 5:7 KJV)

YESHUA WAS AFRAID TO DIE A PHYSICAL DEATH.

HIS FLESH WAS WEAK.

this obvious confusion and uncertainty is further compounded by the

following johannine text:

JESUS
'the reality or an illusion'

1. 'and now i am no more in the world' - john 17:11 (kjv)

*
2. 'and i come to thee' - john 17:11 (kjv)
*
3. 'while i was with them in the world' - john 17:12 (kjv)
*
4. 'and now come i to thee' - john 17:13 (kjv)
*
5. 'and these things i speak in the world' - john 17:13 (kjv)
*
6. 'even as I am not of the world' - John 17:14 (kjv)
i. that said, which physical part and/or spiritual portion of the jesus christ
was crucified - <4717> - [galatians 3:1]?

ii. and/or hangeth <2910> - on a tree [galatians 3:1]?

iii. or 'slew &amp; hanged strong # 2910 [acts 10:39]?

let any faithful christian and/or a defender of the so-called cruci_FICTion,

death and resurrection of jesus christ prove it from john 17:11 - 14 (kjv)
only.

The Docetae held that Christ never had a real physical or natural body, but
only an apparent or phantom body, and that his Crucifixion was only
apparent, not real.
Yusuf Ali's Commentary from QuranTrans

'AND I DID NO DIE IN REALITY BUT IN APPEARANCE'

ARCHAEOLOGICAL PROOF:
3. 'But I [jesus] was not afflicted at all. ....

AND I DID NO DIE IN REALITY BUT IN APPEARANCE,

lest I be put to shame by them, ....For my death which they think happened,
(happened) to them in their error and blindness,
SINCE THEY NAILED THEIR MAN unto their death.....

IT WAS ANOTHER, their father,

who drank the gall
and the vinegar;
IT WAS NOT I.
they struck me
with the reed,
IT WAS ANOTHER,
SIMON, who bore the cross on his shoulder.

IT WAS ANOTHER
UPON WHOM THEY PLACED
THE CROWN OF THORNS. .....

And I was laughing at their ignorance'

(The Nag Hammadi Library in English,
The Second Treatise of the Great Seth (VII, 2), pp. 332).

3. 'One gnostic text from Nag Hammadi,

4. the Apocalypse of Peter,
5. relates a radically different version of the crucifixion : .....
6. I saw him apparently being seized by them.
7. And I said what am I seeing, O Lord?
8. Is it really you whom they take?
 9. And are you holding on to me?
10. And are they hammering the feet and hands
11. OF ANOTHER?
12. Who is this one above the cross,
13. who is glad and laughing?"
14. The Saviour said to me,
15. "He whom you saw being glad
16. and laughing is the Living Jesus.
17. But he into whose hands and feet
18. they are driving the nails is his fleshy part,
19. WHICH IS THE SUBSTITUTE.
20. They put to shame
21. that which remained in his likeness.
22. And look at him,
23. and [look at ] me"
(The Gnostic Gospels, by Elaine Pagels, under, 'The Passion of Christ,' pp.
87).

CORROBORATION

<a href="http://www.bsw.org/Biblica/Vol-81-2000/The-Crux-At-Hebrews-
5-7-8/294/" target="_blank">http://www.bsw.org/Biblica/Vol-81-2000/The-
Crux-At-Hebrews-5-7-8/294/</a>
James Swetnam, «The Crux at Hebrews 5,7-8», Vol. 81 (2000) 347-361
Heb 5,7-8 is a classic crux. It is not clear, as the text seems to say, HOW
JESUS COULD BEG TO BE FREED FROM DEATH AND THEN BE
HEARD `although He was son'.

Further, it is not clear HOW JESUS COULD `LEARN OBEDIENCE

from the things He suffered' ;

since Hebrews pictures Him as antecedently ready to do God's will.

One of the classic cruces in the Epistle to the Hebrews is the passage at Heb
5,7-8 which speaks of THE PETITIONS MADE BY CHRIST.

There are a number of problems associated with these verses, but one
problem is crucial:

Jesus seems to be pictured as

BEGGING TO BE SAVED FROM DEATH
AND AS HAVING BEEN HEARD.

But this seems to CONTRADICT THE OBVIOUS FACT that Jesus died

James Swetnam, «The Crux at Hebrews 5,7-8», Vol. 81 (2000) 347-361

[snip – a solution proposed].
</b>