http://www.lionbridgebrewing.

com/brewhouse-sizing/
Brewhouse Sizing
How much beer should I make?
The sizing of the brewhouse depends on how much beer you need to sell now and how much beer you want to sell in 5
years or 10 years. Do you want to bottle or can or keg or serve from tanks? Do you want to get a bunch of tap handles right
away at bars or restaurants, or do you want to bring people to your location (if you even choose to have one)? And all these
previous questions depend mostly on how much space you have for equipment. Square footage might lock your production
in before brewhouse size. And the bigger the brewhouse, the bigger the fermenters and support equipment.
There are many ways to success. Each brewer/owner has to figure that out for him or herself. I love that the tried and true
business models of success in the beer world of the 20
th
century are getting turned on their heads with the
(re)decentralization of beer.
At Lion Bridge Brewing Company, I wanted to buy a system that would be versatile. I want a vibrant neighborhood pub
scene that will see a lot of beer come out of the taps. I am not bottling or canning from the outset, but I knew I wanted to
have the ability to can or bottle in the future. Upon opening, draft accounts will be my only means of distribution and I am
more than ok with that for now.
I chose a 10 barrel (310 gallon) brewhouse. This means that I can brew ~300 gallons in one batch. I can double those
batches in a day and ferment all that beer in 20 barrel (600 gallon) fermenters. I felt that 10 barrels is a good fit for what I
want to be. Much smaller and I might find myself chained to the kettle (so to speak) trying to keep up with pub demand
and open up draft accounts. With a 10bbl system, I can brew half batches (5 barrels), which is good for experimentation, or
20 barrels, which is good for tested recipes that I know the public likes. As I said earlier, square footage played a big part in
my decisions. I am fortunate that I have room for another 12, 20 barrel tanks as well as some barrel-aging space to play
with. This should keep me busy.
Cheers,
Quinton









Size does matter - http://startingabrewery.wordpress.com/2010/04/28/size-does-matter/
April 28, 2010 by PJ
As I said we would, Kell and I have been pumping away at the business plan in hopes of having a rough draft out this
weekend. Granted, I dont think we will. But, were working on it pretty hard!
Everything is coming along pretty smoothly. Suppliers and other brewers alike are very generous with information. The City
of Denver has been responding to questions about tax and property issues, incentives etc. All is well.
One thing that has sort of stopped us, while we get ready to gear up for the issue, is what size we want to be. Our two
options are small or big. Granted, our version of big is still tiny in the world of brewing, but thats besides the point. Were
looking at either a 1/2 bbl (bbl = barrel = 31 gallons = 2 kegs) system or a 3-5 bbl (either 3 or 5, that decision comes later)
system.
Both systems have a lot of inherit risk. Just by opening a brewery, we are taking a massive risk. But, the beer is amazing. So,
theres that.
The 1/2 bbl system has a lot of merits. Its inexpensive, comes pretty much ready to use in a nice little package, and doesnt
come with nearly as much initial risk. The idea with this system would be to ferment the batches in kegs or small plastic
conical fermenters. All beer would be sold on premise, with maybe, just maybe an account or two. The labor to beer ratio
would be ridiculously high, but the cost would be super low.
On premise sales are enormously profitable in relation to off premise sales. The revenue from a keg of pints sold in the
brewery at normal costs is a few hundred percent more than selling a keg outright to an off premise account.
Of course, if the beer is as good as it is, and demand picks up like we think it will, the risk in this plan comes from the
inability to grow. Growth is easy on a batch to batch premise. We buy another keg, we can brew another batch. But, for
every new fermenter aka keg its another batch someone has to brew. Its a linear growth thats not sustainable in the
long run.
The thought here is that it would be easier to get the investment for this lowered capital, prove our worth, spread the
word, and then ask for more money and more equipment when we feel we need to. The downside of that is when were
trying to save up money to grow to that next level, we wont be able to satisfy demand. Customers get pissed. We go out of
business. Or fall apart from being overworked.
The larger system, a 3 to 5 bbl system, loads a lot more of the financial risk up front. The initial investment is much more.
Though, at 6-10 times the volume, the investment is not 6-10 times as much. At this level we can calm down a little on the
brewing, focussing more on customer service and sales. There is more equipment required, like keg washers and fillers, for
example. And well need to go out and sell the beer to accounts like Falling Rock and Rackhouse Pub, rather than market to
get people to come inside the brewery. So its just as much work, just allocated in a different way.
If we are able to secure the investment for this bigger system, the growth potential is much better. With any system, we
have the ability to double brew, or brew more than one batch into a double-sized fermenter. This saves on yeast and time
and tank resources. At the 1/2 bbl level, a double batch fills a 1 bbl tank. At the 5 bbl level, a double batch fills a 10 bbl tank.
While the ratios are the same, 5 extra barrels of beer is a lot of extra beer.
Just writing this post is helping to push me toward the larger system. I think Kell said it best. Its better to ask for a larger
investment now, when we have the time, than to it is to spend an initial investment so we can ask for the same larger
investment in a year or two.
So, assuming we can find a rich uncle or some other form of investor, it looks like were going big. From pico to nano!
What do you think?






























General Notes on Brewery Projects - http://www.soundbrew.com/
If there is a single theme that keeps repeating itself in the craft brewery industry, it is that of undercapitalized
start-ups. Each week we receive calls asking us to evaluate (and hopefully validate) start-up ideas that are hopelessly
undersized and/or under-financed. These include such proposals as two-barrel production breweries, brewpub start-ups
with capital of less than $100,000, and even commercial breweries located in residences. The usual idea for the latter
scenario is "I just want to start out brewing on weekends, and then when the business has grown enough I'll quit my
regular job...."
The principals in these would-be ventures want to believe that they have discovered some unexploited market
niche that will give them the edge over established competitors, that they can luck onto the proverbial used brewing
system for one-fourth of its market value, or that "All I have to do is make good beer and it will sell itself". This is simply
not a realistic view in todays marketplace. Returning now to reality, here are some basic rules of thumb for start-ups
which should guide your planning.
Production Breweries
A production brewery should in most cases choose a brewhouse size of at least fifteen barrels. Smaller systems
will generally require too much labor per barrel to be more than marginally profitable, and will tend to run out of capacity
before turning a decent profit, necessitating replacement of equipment within three years of opening. That said, a number
of breweries have started with smaller systems and up sized within one to two years after opening (the bootstrap
method), and many of these are still operating. The present climate would not seem too friendly to this style of start-up. A
production brewery should ideally open its doors with a minimum of 1,500 barrels of annual capacity, and a minimum of
two to three primary fermenters for an ale facility. As for lager beer, increase all size and cost requirements compared to
ale breweries by a factor of 1.5-2.0. Lager is extremely capital intensive to make in a small production brewery and may
only be profitable at volumes in excess of 10,000-20,000 barrels per year.
The typical budget for production brewery utilizing start-up used equipment is in the range of $150,000-$200,000.
Up to a third of that may be needed for building improvements alone. A more realistic range for mature markets is
$250,000-$350,000 for a draft only operation and a minimum of $500,000 for a brewery with high speed bottling
capability. Again, there are small operations that have been launched for much less utilizing owners sweat equity and
scavenged equipment, but this is surely the riskiest and most difficult way to do a brewery start-up. A key fact to keep in
mind when assembling your financing is this: Debt kills small breweries. Equity is much safer, even if you have to give up
part of your own to raised the capital.
Brewpubs
The usual minimum rational size for brewpub start-up systems is a seven barrel system. This will suffice for small to
medium sized, retail only brewpubs (up to 125 seats). In certain instances, very small, limited operations may call for three
to five barrel systems. Any brewpub that is larger than 125 seats or one that plans to wholesale any product to other
outlets will likely need at least a ten barrel system. A 7 barrel brewery system will occupy 750-1000 square feet, and larger
ones up to 1700. Total space for even a small operation should not be less than 2500 square feet, and 4000-5000 is much
better. If the brewery will also produce beer for sale to other establishments, considerably more space will be needed to
store, wash and fill kegs and/or bottles.
Budget-wise, for most operations the minimum capital required is $250,000-$300,000. There have been exceptions
to this, in instances where the premises was already a bar or restaurant and the only added improvements needed are to
the brewery space. The average brewpub investment is around $500,000 (for brewery equipment and leasehold
improvements), with elaborate restaurant and showpiece operations ranging up to $2 million or more.

Time-lines
The most realistic time-line for completing a brewery project is the most generous one. Generally, one year is an
average minimum for most projects. If funding is being sought from private investors or an SBA loan (as opposed to
conventional institutional loan), it is not unrealistic to add four to six months to the time-line. From the date all funds and
needed building permits are in hand, allowing a six to nine month time period for building and commissioning is a good
place to start planning.
Assembling and commissioning a brewery is an immensely complicated endeavor. It is inevitably dovetailed with a
significant amount of construction work, and the nature of construction is--let's face it--delays. If the contractor says it will
take sixty days, figure ninety and you may be safe, but 120 is safer. Permitting processes today often take months as well,
and construction usually cant even begin until permits are issued. Construction delays are far and away the most common
reason for late brewery openings, and late brewery openings are the most common reason breweries run out of capital.
Furthermore, in spite of the best intentions of tank fabricators and secondary vendors of various components
(such as mills, grain transport equipment, chillers, pumps, packaging machines and so on) there will inevitably be pieces
which are delivered later than they're supposed to be. Due to economics, modern manufacturing has shifted away from
inventoried components to built-to order components. If the widget manufacturer can't get components he needs on time
from the gizmo manufacturer he buys them from, shipment of your widget is delayed, plain and simple. Other problems
occur--parts may be damaged in shipment and have to be replaced, while at other times the incorrect parts are shipped.
It's a rare project that doesn't have one or even several of these sorts of delays. It does little good to scream at suppliers
caught in this position--they're often as powerless as you are. For projects employing used equipment, if you can buy a
fairly complete package it may save considerable time. Keep in mind that you rarely find exactly the list and configuration
you are seeking, and additional items may need to be found new or used.
The lesson is to allow enough extra time to cover a reasonable amount of delay, and enough capital so that you
don't run out of cash waiting to brew your first batch. Take your best educated guess of the time required, based on what
suppliers and contractors tell you is realistic, and add 30-40% to be safe. It's better to go into the project prepared and
ready for it than to take it out on your nerves and fingernails. Lastly, don't make the mistake of bringing non-key staff
members on the payroll too early in anticipation of the opening. Payroll is the biggest outlay you have--delay all non-critical
staff expenditures until near opening time, while allowing enough time for needed staff training.










Industry Info, Standards, Statistics and Conversion Factors
Brewery Space Requirements:
Average production brewery with bottling=1.25-1.75 SF/BBL/Year
Minimum production brewery start-up size requirements: 5,000 square feet industrial space with 20' ceilings,
loading dock, good truck access, 3 phase power, city gas main
Average pub brewery plant with in-house sales only=.06-1.0 SF/BBL/Year (not including restaurant)
Minimum brewpub size requirements: 3,000 square feet in retail area with ample parking and/or high foot traffic
Energy Use:
Brewpubs:
Electrical: 10-15 KWH/BBL
Chiller: 8-20 BTU /BBL
Natural gas: 1.3 therms/BBL
Ingredients (averages for all malt beers):
Water usage: 3.0-7.0 BBL per BBL of beer sold
Malt: 45-60 #/BBL
Hops: 0.5-0.8 #/BBL
Water Usage Breakdown for Pub Breweries:
Usage & output per 10 BBL, average (pub brewery)
10 BBL in product
12 BBL Cooling-reclaimed
1 BBL Evaporated
2.5 BBL With spent grain
8.5 BBL To sewer
33 bbl TOTAL
Effluent (Average for Pub Breweries):
BOD mg/L 600-1200
COD mg/L 800-1600
TSS mg/L 250-500
pH 5.5-6.5
Revenue:
Beer sold retail by the glass in a brewpub $700-$1,000 per BBL
Beer sold retail to go in bottles $300-$375 per BBL.
Beer sold wholesale in kegs to distributors: $120-$150 per BBL.
Beer sold wholesale in bottles to distributors $145-$190 per BBL
Beer sold wholesale in kegs to accounts $160-$200 per BBL.
Beer sold wholesale in bottles to accounts $190-$250 per BBL


Brewpubs may become profitable with as little as 250 BBLs of annual beer sales if it is all sold at retail. A brewpub
should target beer sales of at least 40% of gross sales. Production breweries generally require 3,000-5,000
barrels of annual sales at wholesale to become profitable. They can often benefit from a modest on site pub,
depending on the suitability of the location. A start-up production brewery may cost between $125 and $350 per
barrel of annual capacity to build depending on quality of equipment, efficiency and other factors. Larger plants
cost less.
Selected Conversion Factors:
US Gal->CF x 0.1337
Ft.->US Gal x 7.481
US Gal.->In. x 231
In->US Gal. x 0.0043
HL->US BBL x 0.8522
US BBL->HL x 0.11734
Ft.->US BBL x 0.2413
US BBL->Ft. x 4.144
UK BBL-> US Gal x 43.24
US BBL->UK BBL x .717
US Gal.-> Imp.Gal x 0.8326
Imp. Gal->US Gal x 1.201
PSI->Kgm/cm x 0.0703
1 Bushel=1.07 CF=8 US Gal.
Dissolved Oxygen & Air:
O2 ml/oz.->PPM x 48.41
O2 PPM->ml/oz x 0.02067
O2 PPM->air ml/oz x 0.10338
Air ml/oz.->O2 PPM x 9.671
Grain:
US Malt Bushel =34#
Malt=30-34# /Ft.
Grist=23-27# /Ft.
Spent Grain=50-80# /Ft.
Average infusion mash=1.0-1.2 BBL H2O /100# malt
Typical processing: 1 Ft. malt yields 1.35 Ft. grist which yields 0.9 Ft. spent grain
Extract:
# /BBL->KGM /HL x 0.3865
Kgm/HL-#/BBL x


Color:
EBC->Lovibond = EBCx(.375)+0.46

Water Properties:
8.34 #/gal.
7.481 gal.= 1 CF
1 C/F=62.4#
Fuel Properties
Natural Gas= 1050 BTU/CF
1 therm=100,000 BTU=95.2 CF
Elevation: Gas efficiency is de-rated by 4% per 1,000 feet over 2,000 feet
Propane=91,500 BTU/Gal. =35.6 CF vapor =2570 BTU /CF vapor

Cooling:
1 Ton=12,000 BTU
1 HP= 6900 BTUH @ 90 ambient with 28 glycol
Glycol flow rate: 3-5 GPM per tank jacket for small tanks


















http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/first-year-brewpub-sales-245384/
First Year Brewpub Sales
I'm writing up a business plan and I'm trying to do some market research, but I'm not having much success. There are no
brewpubs in my city (Dayton, Ohio), and its hard to get sales data from local establishments because they're afraid I'm a
competitor.

I'm trying to come up with estimates for first year beer sales (in barrels). Our brewpub will have a 10 bbl brewhouse and
will hopefully be located south of the city in a relatively busy suburban location.

What is a typical sales volume for a starting brewpub of our size? At first, I thought it might be around 500 barrels, but after
looking at the numbers of other Ohio brewpubs, I have no idea what to estimate.

Any ideas?
The sales volume is based off of the number of seats in the establishment, not the brewing capacity. It doesn't matter how
much beer you can brew if you can't fit people in your bar. It also doesn't matter how many people you can fit if you can't
brew enough beer.

Start by considering how many seats you expect to have, aka the number of serviceable customers you can have max. Then
consider throughout the day how many seats might be filled. Consider that Friday and Sat nights you might fill the place up,
but monday for lunch you might only have x amount of seats per hour.

Then consider how many drinks each customer might have. In a brewpub generally people will buy several drinks because
it's more adventurous than a regular bar. People who don't even drink beer regularly will ask for suggestions as to what
unique beers you have and should likely order. Imagine each person might have .75-1.5 beers during off peak hours, and 2-
3.5 during peak hours. Those numbers aren't founded on any sort of real life science, but it demonstrates the concept of
drinks per seat which is important.

10bbl is a large amount of beer, so you'd need a pretty big sized brewpub to cycle through that much beer.

Take the average seats per day and average beers per seat, then do the math. Convert total pints to bbl and you'll begin to
see how realistic your estimates are. Hope this helps!
It seems that my original estimates were pretty close to my calculations. Around 500 barrels for an 80-seat pub is what I
came up with. The pub will be open six days a week with lunch, dinner, and bar service every day.

Now comes the harder part: market research. What do I need to find out through market research? How much beer are
local bars selling? What kinds of beers local bars are selling? And what else?
With the caveat that I have no experience and therefore I'm not in any way qualified to answer any of these questions... the
"what else" that I would want to know in your shoes is what kinds of beers the local beers AREN'T selling that customers
wish they were. Basically you'd have to survey people to get to that.
10-15 bbl per seat per year will get you started
500bbl a year is 1000 kegs for and 80 seat place that's 5 beers per seat 6days a week. Or you need a minimum of 205
customer a day. That's each person buy 2 pints
I have talk to a few distribution drivers and they have told my that the average kegs used bar /pub is 5 to 6 a week less in
the winter.
I'm not sure how much time and resources you want to put into market research but here are a few quick items to
consider.

Market research:
A) Define your target segment(s)
You can use a lot of different descriptors for your segment, geographic, demographic, behavioral and so on. I recommend
starting with geographic and demographic. First define who your customer is, for instance:

Joe
Age 25 - 35
Income range $XXXX - $XXXX per year/month.
Family situation: Single, married, kids or no kids.

Then find our how many Joes are in your area.

B) Once you know how many Joes are in the area, do a survey in a Joe-heavy location, to figure out things like "How often
do you go out", "Out of our 8 competitors, which do you prefer?", "What is the most important thing you look for in a
bar/pub.

C) Once you know how many Joes there are, and have an idea of how they behave, you can do a calculation like:

- Your bar is too expensive for them.
- They prefer BMC.
- They don't drink.
- They haven't heard of your bar.

Until you get a more realistic number of potential customers.

Example:
There are 5000 Joes in my area, out of the 300 Joes surveyed 85% said they would frequent my establishment. 4250 left.
20% of them won't hear of my bar.
4250 * 0.80 = 3400 left.
15% of those live outside of walking distance
3400 *0,85 = 2890 left.

And so on.

Cost calculations:

I would also do a few cost calculations to see what your running costs are going to be, to find the break-even point. Once
you have an idea of your fixed and variable costs you can work backwards:

If you have a 50% margin on the beer you sell (cost of production $1 per bottle/glass) then you make $1 per bottle, that
means that if you have costs of $1000 per month (not counting beer production) you need to sell 1000 bottles/glasses to
break even.

If there are 5000 Joes in your area, this means that each Joe has to buy 0.2 bottles.

This is mostly to figure out whether your business proposal is overly optimistic or overly pessimistic. For instance, if you
identify 20 Joes, each of them would have to buy 50 bottles per month, which breaks down to a little over 1 per day.

Positioning map:
I like using a positioning map to analyze the market. The axis on the map should be two of the most important choice
criteria your customers use. I used price and quality in the example. This is really useful for getting an idea of where there
are "gaps" in the market. Note that just because there is a gap, doesn't mean the position is good, the gap could exist due
to the position being unprofitable.

I can expand on market/business analysis if you want, but I think this post is approaching wall-of-text already.





THE MINI-MICRO-, PICO- AND NANO- BREWING SYSTEMS PAGE

Please take the time to read this if you are considering buying a system smaller than 7 barrels for a start-up...
This page is designed to inform buyers interested in what we'll call Mini-Micro brewing systems, which for our purposes are
those under 7 barrels in batch size. Most of the one seen on the used market fall between 3 and 4 barrels in size. There are
a few 1 to 2 barrel systems that show up from time to time, and a very few 5 barrel ones exist as well... 5 barrels is actually
the rarest of all sizes on the used market.

There are one or two applications we feel Mini-Micro plants are good for, and quite a few more that they are not good for.
In a nutshell, here is what our long experience in this industry has shown us:
1. In 24 years in this industry, we have seen NO evidence that a start-up microbrewery (meaning primarily wholesale sales,
NOT a brewpub) is a viable business at less than 10 barrel size, and more realistically 15 barrel MINIMUM size. A micro will
not become consistently profitable until it produces some thousands of barrels per year... 3,000 or so is a ballpark number.
You can't get there with a 3 or 4 barrel system. Do the math.

2. A start-up brewpub needs to be scaled to produce and sell 500+ barrels of beer in house to be successful. We believe this
requires a minimum 7 barrel system. While smaller systems can sometimes produce this much, the labor cost on a 3 or 4
barrel system is often too high to make a decent profit. The cost of beer production on a 3 barrel system will approach the
cost of buying wholesale microbrewed keg beer from a distributor. Given that, why go through all the licensing and
regulatory headaches to make the same money? Open an alehouse instead.

3. Tiny systems like 2 barrel plants are for the most part good only as pilot plants or hobbies (as in big home
breweries). They are not commercially viable for even a tiny brewpub.

4. A 3 or 4 barrel microbrewery (wholesale production) is doomed to either fail, or enslave its operator with interminable
hours and little compensation until he can upgrade his equipment to a large enough system to become profitable on. In
many instances the venture self destructs and visits financial ruin upon the owner.

5. Mini-Micro systems are useful for a multi-unit brewpub operator (brewpub chain) in some instances. These include
opportunities to open satellite locations which (A) do not need to make all their own beer on premises but (B) do need a
brewery to get the license due to state laws. In those states where this scenario applies, brewpubs are permitted
to transfer beer from one location to another. The Mini-Micro brewery becomes more of a decorative piece that sees
occasional use, and, of course, qualifies the establishment for a brewpub license. Some of these establishments may brew
as little as once a year to comply with the laws, others use them for experimental or exotic brews like Belgian styles.

6. Incrementally, a Mini-Micro system is the most costly to buy of any size and even more costly to operate. A 7 barrel
system of comparable quality is not twice the cost of a 3 barrel system but it has far more potential expansion
capacity. Buying a Mini-Micro system and replacing it later is very costly.

7. We have seen many times that adding a brewery to an existing restaurant or bar usually does not work. A brewpub
needs to be created from scratch, not added on to an existing establishment. It is axiomatic that adding a brewery will not
"fix" an establishment that is "busted" (i.e. not successful), nor will it add meaningful value to one that IS successful.
MORE FACTS TO BE AWARE OF ABOUT SMALL SYSTEMS:

8. The amount of labor and time it takes to produce a small batch like 3 barrels is no less than the amount required to make
much larger batches. Cost of production is therefore much higher on a per barrel basis in a small plant. Too high, in most
cases, to make brewing on this scale profitable, whether in a brewpub or a wholesale microbrewery.

9. The cost of ingredients purchased in small quantities is significantly higher than in larger quantities. Shipping costs on
small orders accentuate this disparity even more.

10. It is likely that the TRUE cost of brewing beer in less than 7 barrel size batches will equal or exceed the wholesale price
of craft brewed beer bought from a distributor. If your cost of production is greater than wholesale, where is the profit?

11. On a dollar per barrel of capacity basis, small systems are by far the most expensive out there. Cost versus capacity
drops precipitously as size increases.

12. Many microbreweries (meaning wholesale production breweries as opposed to brewpubs) that start up with smaller
than 10 barrel systems fail within 2 years. Those that dont quickly run out of capacity and find they need to replace their
equipment and/or build a new facilityan expensive proposition.

13. Most brewpubs that start up with smaller than 7 barrel systems find they either cannot meet their demand (and have to
replace their equipment and upsize, a very expensive and disruptive process) or that they cannot offer enough variety or
consistency to be successful, and then they simply close.

14. The only applications we believe these small systems are appropriate for are:
(a) A regional brewpub chain that is opening a satellite store, AND has the ability to supply beer from other brewing
locations, and therefore only needs the brewery in place to comply with licensing laws. In that situation, where the brewery
will be operated occasionally to make specialties and one-off brews, small systems are appropriate.
(b) Rarely, as a pilot plant for an established regional brewery. This rarely works because the brewing capabilities of these
systems are usually quite limited.

We cant think of any other applications where they make sense, either financially or logically.
We have a love-hate relationship with small systems. This is because:

15. They inherently generate more inquiries for us than all other sizes combined, but most of the shoppers dont have the
funds to buy a system. They consume a lot of our time and energy for a very modest income they produce. The buyers who
pursue small systems tend to be the least informed, the least business savvy, and the most likely to have problems with
every stage of their project.

16. We resell the same small systems, over and over again, due to failures and the realization that they are too small to
sustain a successful commercial operation. In that way, they are a form of job security for us, although one we would just as
soon do without, for reasons already mentioned. We have sold and re-sold certain 3 and 4 barrel systems a total of FOUR!!
yes, FOUR!! TIMES!!

17. With a small system, you are damned if you succeed and damned if you fail. If you sell all the beer you can make you
will (absolutely guaranteed) run out of capacity and have to start over.

We are willing to sell a buyer any size system that he wants, if we have it available. But we see a lot of start-up
brewers buying systems that are hopelessly undersized for any kind of commercial success. We'd much rather see our
customers be successful than not. Often, we end up selling the same systems multiple times because they were not part of
a viable business plan and the business fails.

A lot of Mini-Micro systems were sold to restaurant operators during the big industry boom of the late 1990s. The fad
mentality convinced many that they needed to add a brewery to their restaurant to stay on the "novelty curve." Most
found that the brewery didn't add anything to the bottom line and in many cases subtracted from it (especially when they
lost seats to make space for the brewery). A lot of them didn't understand brewing at all and treated the brewing end as a
gimmick, with predictably bad results. News Flash! A prep cook is not a brewer. Most of the Mini-Micro systems originally
sold to restaurateurs have by now changed hands, some of them several times since they were new. In our view, the
manufacturers who sold these systems were simply practicing opportunism and did the industry a disservice by building
and selling them at all.

OK, so youve read all this and you still want to set up a 3bbl or 4bbl brewery. We will be pleased to sell you equipment we
have available. We have done our duty and warned you of many of the pitfalls. We don't offer technical support or
warranties on used systems--you are on your own. And we sincerely wish you good luck in spite of the minefield that
awaits you. Please hang on to our contact info, we will be happy to assist you when its time to expand with bigger
equipment and time to sell that little system that you cant wait to replace.

MINI-MICRO BREWING SYSTEM FAQ

Q. I WANT TO START SMALL AND I HAVE A LIMITED BUDGET. I CAN'T AFFORD A LARGER SYSTEM. ISN'T A 3 BARREL
SYSTEM THE LEAST EXPENSIVE?
A. Really, there are used 7 barrel systems available for not greatly more money than a 3 or 4 barrel one. It is a poor
investment to buy a smaller system and less capacity for about the same price. You should always buy the most capacity
that you can utilize. Watch out for shoestring budgets... you will need operating capital to get this thing off the ground.
Q. OUR BREWPUB IS SMALL AND HAS LIMITED SPACE, WE DON'T EXPECT TO SELL A LARGE AMOUNT OF BEER, WE DON'T
HAVE ROOM FOR A BIGGER SYSTEM.
A. You might be surprised how little difference in space a 4bbl and a 7bbl require. Also, if the place is that small, have
you really examined the revenue potential from a dollars per seat perspective? It could be that the place is too small to
make a profit, with or without a brewery. Remember, seats generate revenue, tanks don't. So it's important to keep the
brewery compact, but even more important to have enough seats, and most important of all to scale the project so it can
be profitable. Most who fail didn't do this.

Q. I JUST WANT TO BREW BEER AND I DON'T NEED TO EARN A LIVING FROM IT. ISN'T SMALL THE WAY TO GO?
A. How about buying a deluxe homebrew system and just giving the beer away to your friends? You probably will lose less
money if you do that, and you won't be saddled with the burdens of a brewery like excise tax reporting, long late nights
washing kegs, sales calls to bar owners, endless paperwork etc.
Seriously, it's just as much work to make a little beer as a lot of beer. The cost of the infrastructure goes up as you
make larger quantities, but it is not a linear or proportional increase... twice as much capacity costs nowhere near twice as
much money. If it's a hobby, don't turn it into a non-viable business and ruin it. Figure out how to build it on a profitable
scale or keep it a hobby.
Q. WE WANT TO USE THE SMALL SYSTEM TO "TEST THE WATERS," TO DEVELOP AND PROVE OUR PRODUCTS BEFORE WE
TAKE THE PLUNGE ON A BIG SYSTEM.
A. Maybe so. But you are unlikely to be able to produce enough to "prove" a market with a 3 or 4 bbl system. Do the math!
Why not contract brew at a larger plant to get things off the ground? You will have the advantage that you won't hit the
wall on capacity if you sell your product. And, we think sticking your toe in the water is for weenies--starting a brewery is
big risk-taking venture, and we haven't seen many become a success in the brutally competitive brewing business by
starting out timidly.
More facts about craft-brewed beer:

A. Beer does not sell itself! No matter how many friends you have who say they will buy your beer, you will have to get out
there and SELL the stuff, and thats hard work. Its a competitive and cutthroat marketplace. Bigger guys offer retail
accounts freebies and incentives to sell THEIR beer that you cant afford to match, and it matters not that these practices
are illegal in most localities, they happen anyway.

B. The quality of the product, we are sorry to have to report, has little to do with the success of the brewery. Many
breweries with great products fail and many with mediocre ones succeed wildly. Its called marketing. If you are not
prepared to become a marketer then you WILL NOT succeed as a brewer. By the way, brewing small batches makes it more
difficult to achieve consistency than larger batches.

C. Remember Murphys Law: If something can go wrong, it will. Equipment breakdowns, bacterial infections, spoiled beer,
undercarbonated beer, overcarbonated beer, ignorant and slovenly bar owners who dont clean their beer lines, and many
more, all will come back to haunt you and eat away your profit margins. A keg you have to take back or replace is the same
as one you have to flush down the drain. Thats money dribbling away, and adding to your wastewater charges at the very
same time. Speaking of kegs, they are expensive, and they frequently get stolen by thieves who sell them for scrap. Craft
brewers report a 1%-5% keg theft rate per year. You need a minimum of 5 kegs per handle pouring your beer if you self
distribute, and 7 if you go through a beer distributor. 50 accounts with one tap is 250 kegs, minimum. At $80+ used and
$165 each new, it adds up fast.

D. Capital intensive industry: Brewing is notoriously capital intensive. Most profits are ploughed back into expansion for
years. You might stay afloat with a small system if you (i) dont have to pay any rent and (ii) dont pay yourself a living (or
any) wage. But even in this case, unless you are prepared to slog it out and start at a level where you can survive, dont set
yourself up to wreck your life.
E. Economies of scale: Many wholesale micros do not make a profit even at 2000, 3000 and more barrels per year. We
know of some regional breweries making over 100,000 barrels per year that have lost money several years running. Do the
math: If you brew 3 barrel batches, and make 5 batches per week (probably 35 man-hours of labor), thats 30 kegs per
week. If you sell them for $85 each, thats $2550, times 52 weeks=$132,600 gross annual sales. What per cent profit will it
take from this to make a living wage? Let say $20,000 is a (very minimal) living wage, thats $9.61/hr. With payroll taxes and
insurance its approaching $25K, you would need to make an 18% gross profit on that $132K to cover that. News flash:
Sorry, it aint gonna happen. Fixed and variable costs will burn that $132K up like a Roman Candle on the 4th of July. Do
you want to work ridiculous hours, take on enormous risk and/or debt, for free? For years? Maybe lose your home, wreck
your family?












http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?31522-Brewpub-sizing-question
Brewpub sizing question
Hi fellow brewers,
I'm finishing my business plan for an organic brewery and pub and was hoping I could get validation on the sq. footage
requirements I think I'll be OK with. I'm planning on a 10BBL system, five 10 BBl fermenters, nine 10 BBL serving tanks for
mostly Belgian ales with some ales in the mix. I plan on offering pizzas and salads (Pizza Port style) using a Forno Bravo brick
oven. Seating of 90, with 6 or 8 at the pizza bar (think sushi bar but pizza), 8 or 10 at the bar with the remaining seated
throughout. I intend to leverage the fact that I'll be ht eonly organic brewery in "town" to sell kegs offsite. Overall, I am
anticipating the brewery to require a tight, but doable, 1000 sq ft. I am anticipating that the entire pub side will require a
cozy 1,800 sq ft (20sq ft per seat). Any thoughts on these assumptions?
Thanks in advance
JG
Seriously though, we have a 10bbl system with 4 tens, a twenty, and a brite. We can fit about 100 people in if we squeeze,
with lots of standing and sitting on upturned kegs, since we only have seating for 48. We don't have a kitchen or do more
than snacks, but our cold room is 20x12, so I think I might be able to fit 9 brites in that space (we pour from kegs though).

We have 3600 sq ft.
Russell Everett
Co-Founder / Head Brewer
Bainbridge Island Brewing
Bainbridge Island, WA
Have you drawn up any floor plans? I'd say you're going to be pretty miserable unless you go bigger. Figure 200 sq ft for the
actual brewhouse, plus 25 per tank... you're already at ~600. Do you need room for a keg washer? A filter? What about
storage for the kegs, empty and full? Are you going to have an enclosed milling room? You'll probably want to keep 2-3
pallets of malt on hand, which of course means you need a walkway wide enough for a pallet jack. And so on and so on.
Bottom line, I wouldn't try to do the brewery side in less than about 1500 sq ft.

1800 sq ft for the restaurant side also seems pretty tight to me, but I have a lot less experience in that area. For what it' s
worth, we're going into 3200 sq ft for a 7 bbl pub with 60 seats and a full kitchen, and it's going to be really tight. We'll
probably have to get some off-site storage space, or rent/buy a container for on-site storage.
Thanks for the comments. I intended to set aside 1000 sq ft for the brewery operation. The floor plan I drew up based on
calculations derived from measurements aqcuired from Premier Stainless suggest that would work. I know the BA says 1 sq
ft per BBL annual production, at which point 1500 sq ft would work. I will have a keg washer, but do not anticipate having
too many kegs, 30 or so. It'll be tight, like Gordon Biersch tight but I've calculated ~300 sq ft for grain storage, chemicals,
kegs etc. I may have to get a shed put out back and place the grain mill there to save space, and your container idea seems
pretty cost-effective to store kegs, grains, grain mill etc.

What is your rationale to only use 60 seats? Are any of these bar seats? What sq ft/seat ratio are you using? 30 sq ft per
seat? We will only offer slads and bric oven pizzas, so kitchen size can be smaller than a full size kitchen, though I am not
sure how small. I was thinking around 250-300 sq ft. but don't know.

I'm really constrained by space availability. The largest place I've seen that I can afford is 3200 sq ft., and I have to offer
more than 60 seats to be profitable. Well, you've given me more to think about.
Thanks
JG
While this issue is still not finalized, I did run some numbers and you only save 47 sq. ft. by using a 7BBL system vs. a 10 BBL
system, when using 5 fermenters and 9 brite tanks. I guess that's the equivalent of an office, which I didn't include in my
drawings. The cost savings totaled $18K. But, what did strike me was that I had planned for growth in the brewery
equipment but possibly not realistically in floor plan design, thereby making it a moot point to have growth anticipated in
equipment and not floor plan.
The cost savings totaled $18K.
Maybe the initial cash outlay is lower, but make sure you're factoring increased labor, utilities, etc. from having to brew
more frequently on a 7bbl system. Over the life a brewery, I'm sure it's way more than $18k. Don't be penny-wise and
pound foolish.
I will have a keg washer, but do not anticipate having too many kegs, 30 or so.
What is your rationale to only use 60 seats? Are any of these bar seats? What sq ft/seat ratio are you using?
Not much rationale, that's what the space will accommodate. The front of house is 1600 sq ft including bar/back and
restrooms. Probably 10 bar seats (it hasn't been built yet) and an extra 20 on the patio, four months a year. 60 is actually
pretty aggressive given the layout. We're in a market of (optimistically) 6,000 though. I'm sure real estate here is essentially
free compared to what you're looking at.

My biggest piece of advice would be to get in there with a tape measure and a roll of masking tape ASAP.
Depending on the floor type and the building status, I've found sidewalk chaulk and a tape measure to be absolutely
invaluable in forming a floor plan. You can mock things up all day but until you check and draw things out, you won't truely
get a feel for how things really fit.
Depending on the floor type and the building status, I've found sidewalk chaulk and a tape measure to be absolutely invaluable in forming a floor plan. You
can mock things up all day but until you check and draw things out, you won't truely get a feel for how things really fit.
Good point on actually measuring things out, I actually did no think of that but its simply brilliant! I'm somewhat surprised
that the landlord/ realtor would allow one that much time in a single visit without signing the lease upfront.

I actually intend to have 9 serving tanks. The kegs will be used either for off-site accounts and/or to drain a brite tank when
its 1-2 BBls full so I can clean/sanitize it and fill it up with a new batch of beer. I'll have a 10 tap micromatic dispensing set
up and use that one extra tap to pull beer from the more popular brite tank or to connect spare kegs lying around. With a 7
BBL system using 5 fermenters and 9 serving tanks, that's a max production of approx. 900BBL/year. I can add another 400
BBLs by upgrading to a 10 BBL system. But, under my forecasting, in a 10 BBL system the brewer will be brewing 1/2 a batch
a week, versus close to a full batch a week in a 7BBL system. I wouldn't even max out w/a 7 BBL system until after year 5, at
which point half of my loan is paid off, my concept proven and I can think about opening another location. With a 10 BBL
system, I may never meet maximum capacity. The other brewpub in the area produces around 580 BBLs a year, and the
only production brewery in the area produces ~1500 BBLS a year, so the more I crunch numbers and compare across the
region, 7 BBLs seems the right size for this project. But, I am keeping a biz plan for both a 7 and 10 BBL brewpub just in case
I decide to switch.

I did the math, and with 60 seats in 1600 sq ft of restaurant, your assuming ~26 sq ft. per seat. I take it you will be a full
service restaurant? I was planning around 20 sq ft/seat in a 2000 sq ft restaurant. From what a lot of sites mentioned, 15-20
sq ft / seat would be industry average for a restaurant like I am planning. But it does seem small no matter how you slice it.
Thanks for sharing that information!
Cheers - John

http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?24856-Sales-projections-help
Sales Projection Help
Working on my business plan for a 15-30 bbl production brewery that will also have a tap room and growler sales. I am
wondering how accurate my projections are. I am hoping some seasoned brewers will let me know if my thinking is right or
not. My figures look right, and I have them formulated on Xcel, but my per bbl $ number seems much higher than the
industry average. I would love for it to be correct though.

Here is my first year projections. This is based roughly on 15 bbl system with ~1500 bbl capacity the first year. We will only
be packaging in kegs until we decide that we have grown enough to support a bottling/canning line. Probably moving to
750's first with some specialty beers. We will be self-distributing to start into a market with lots of beer bars and not a lot of
local beers (right now, but growing like crazy).

Projecting 500 bbl sold first year. I think this may be 500 too low, but I am erring to the low side. We will have capacity if
needed up to about 1500 upon start up and can add FV as needed to support more capacity. We are going to be in a market
where everyone else is selling every drop of beer they can make.

Breakdown as % of bbl sold as I am projecting (just stabbing into the dark, I have no idea) this is based on 500 bbl with 40%
sold at tap room in pints and growlers and 60% to accounts. Numbers are price as a unit and price per ounce.

PINT $4.00 $0.25 20%
REG GROWLER $12.00 $0.19 20%
1/6 BBL $50.00 $0.08 35%
1/2 BBL $130.00 $0.07 25%

When I calculate a weighted average, I come up with $.13 per ounce, which then equates to just over $500 per bbl. This
seems higher than it should be, but maybe it is right with ~40% of sales at retail or close to retail. I based the keg pricing of
some research and average price. Let me know if it looks right.

Thanks
Matt
Retail numbers are always easy. Every $.50 per pint is ~$100 per BBL. If you focus on tap room sales to that extent you
should have no problem hitting $500 per BBL overall. Our tap room sales and range from $850-$1000 per BBL depending on
our lineup with combined pints and growler sales. Throw a few limited release special beers throughout the year in at $4-5
for a half pint and a 15BBL batch will gross $25-30,000.

How long it takes to move a whole batch is another issue and is the main difference between retail tap room sales and
wholesale distribution. Might take 6-9 months to finish a batch like that, depends how busy your tap room is.

I don't know what your demographics are like or what your tap room will be like but we sell 3-4X as much volume in pints
compared to growlers, but we have a very nice tap room that has become a local hang-out. If you plan more of a "tasting
room" than a "bar" you will probably do a higher percentage of growlers.
I too am putting together some financials for a 10 BBL taproom setup and have run into lots of conflicting
numbers/opinions. I read in the New Brewer Jan./Feb. issue that a brewpub may expect $700-$800/BBL and I am assuming
that this figure represents mostly pint sales on-premise, which would be similar to a taproom concept.

CopperKettle has $800-$1,000/BBL and I am wondering what would be the best number to assume for a business plan.

Also, I have projected annual BBL production of:
Year 1: 750 BBLs (90% sold onsite)
Year 2: 1,000 BBLs (85% sold onsite)
Year 3: 1,250 BBLs (80% sold onsite)
Year 4: 1,500 BBLs (80% sold onsite)
Year 5: 2,000 BBLs (80% sold onsite)

Anyone know whether it is reasonable to assume that a busy taproom (~3,500 sq-ft indoor-outdoor space) can sustain such
pint sales on premise?

Thanks in advance.
It's possible, depends on the location and the quality of your products and how well you can market yourself. Just because
you HAVE the space doesn't mean you will fill it consistently. If you think you can do 700BBLs in year one and 1,500+ BBLs
through a tap room, even after 5 years, I would be very impressed, that's a million and a half a year in retail revenue alone.
That is a lot of VERY busy days. There are some places that can do it but the location is critical and you'll pay much higher
rent. I think we can do 300-400 BBLs per year in retail eventually but we are in the suburbs, on a very slow side street, and
only have an 800 sq ft tap room. Our rent is dirt cheap so even with fewer sales the final margins are still very good with
lower sales.

What do your local pint prices look like? New Brewer assumes $4 pints, our standard pints are $5. Don't forget the high ABV
beers at $4-5 for a smaller pour size which gross $1500+ per BBL.
When I was in planning stages I did a lot of work with Excel to help us think things through. Set up a little spreadsheet that
had variables I could change: price per pint, percent of different types of taproom sales (pints, growlers, schwag), number
of seats, number of turns, number of pints per patron average, days open, etc

Then I set up variables for the brewery: bbls brewed, % split between wholesale, retail, taproom, etc., prices, and so on.
Then I set up a little section that was average check, based on the number of pints in the taproom (no food here). Did that
'average' feel reasonable to me based on my own lengthy and personal barstool experience? Would I come back if my two
pints were $20? Would it be reasonable to expect each patron will have three pints? Or is it more likely some will have five,
some one, and the average will be somewhere around two?

Most importantly I did sort of a 'Reality Check'. Stats like: is it reasonable to assume these many patrons, drinking this many
pints, in this many hours open, paying this sort of average check. Messed around with all these variables till I got numbers
that I thought seemed reasonable enough. It's one thing to say "We expect $xxx, xxx taproom sales." but quite another to
see it as "In order to reach that we'll need to serve 1000 pints daily in a 12 person taproom...Ooops." At that point you can
lower your expectations and then you can tweak your keg sales/taproom mix to see roughly how many wholesale kegs you
need to sell per week/month/etc. to cover the gap. But you can also find that level where your taproom pays the bills and
wholesale kegs start be where the profit comes in.

Find a nice conservative estimate where you can still make it, then be pleasantly surprised when you do better, I say. We
open in about a month, so we'll see how accurate that turns out to be
Russell Everett
Co-Founder / Head Brewer
Bainbridge Island Brewing
Bainbridge Island, WA
Russell, I'm currently doing my plan and am doing the same thing as you suggest. The only thing I'd add for the original
poster to consider is creating your daily calculations also as hourly calculations for pints, etc. sold. I've seen some tap rooms
open for 8 hours, 12 hours, and some just 4 hours. The hourly calculation can give you an idea of the number of people you
could reasonably expect to need coming through the door...
Russell, I'm currently doing my plan and am doing the same thing as you suggest. The only thing I'd add for the original poster to consider is creating your
daily calculations also as hourly calculations for pints, etc. sold. I've seen some tap rooms open for 8 hours, 12 hours, and some just 4 hours. The hourly
calculation can give you an idea of the number of people you could reasonably expect to need coming through the door...
Absolutely! I wrote a little thing about that in there but it started to get too long. It's one thing to expect to sell 200
pints a day if you're open 12 hours, versus 4 hours. But it could also turn out that you typically sell 180 of those pints in a
busy 4 hour window! Ah business planning... We ourselves are going to start out doing four days of 4-5 hours, a day of 8
hours, one day off, and two days of 10. Which is about 7.5 hours a day average. But it's more likely weekends will be busier
and so on. So whether the weekly average, or breaking it down by days, is more helpful to you is one reason why everyone
should set up their own personalized spreadsheet. Only as useful to you as you make it.

One last thing I'd suggest is have a series of cells in a little box that break down your projected annual production into
smaller units. "1000 bbls. Wooo! 2000 sankes! Wooo... 62,000 growlers... Yikes. 248,000 pints! Sweet Jeebus..." It's both
exciting and terrifying. Good motivation!
Russell Everett
One last thing I'd suggest is have a series of cells in a little box that break down your projected annual production into smaller units. "1000 bbls. Wooo!
2000 sankes! Wooo... 62,000 growlers... Yikes. 248,000 pints! Sweet Jeebus..." It's both exciting and terrifying. Good motivation!
Out of curiosity, in the projections and planning, do you account for spillage on the pints? I'm in the process of planning my
brewery as well, but I've had conversations with bar managers where they get dinged real bad on spillage, and some
information I've come across say as much as 20% of tap sales can be lost due to spillage. Heck, even today at a pub
dedicated to craft beer and operated by the owner of a brewpub had a decent amount of foam going down the drain when
he poured me my IIPA.










http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?18008-Question-on-bbl-per-seat-required-in-
BP&highlight=spillage+pints
Question on bbl per seat required in BP
I am looking to start a brewpub with around 75 seats in total and looking at a 7 bbl & a 10bbl systems. The plan is to have 6
serving tanks. My question is, per serving tank about how much will it support? I'm not sure how much a seat will require in
barrelage per year to keep up with demand. Any information would be helpful. Thanks in advanced.
I worked a 5 bbl brewery once that fed a 90 seat pub. We had 6 fermenters & 6 serving tanks @ 10 bbl. No off sales. Way
too few seats. 14 day cycle on each of six beers double brewlength is over 1,000 pints a day. I doubt whether you can make
money on anything with less than 100 seats. I'd at least double the seating, but that could depend on the crowd & model.
Phillip Kelm--Palau Brewing Company Manager--
Worldwide Brewery Installations
www.GitcheGumeeBreweryServices.com
I'm opening a ~120 seat place with a 7 Barrel System, prime city location in a restored 100 year old building. We have 4
fermenters and six serving tanks. I also have a smattering of smaller tanks we'll be using for small batch stuff. We have
plenty of room for expansion and I suspect we'll be picking up two 15 bbl FV and SV within a year or two.

Good Luck!
I think the question you are asking is "how many seats will a single serving tank supply?".

DISCLAIMER: NOT A CURRENT PRO BREWER NOR BUSINESS OWNER

I think what you need to look at is what the % of sales that particular serving tank will be. You would need to have an idea
how many beers/seat and what the turnover rate is. But below is some basic math I did (note the disclaimer)

75 seats * 32 ounces/hour * 1.1 spillage factor * 1.025 sampling factor (guessing) = 2706 oz/hr = 170 pints (16oz)/hr * (1
gal/128 oz) = 1.31 gal/hr

if you serve between 11am and say 11pm closing, thats

1.31 gal/hr * 12hr = 16 gal/day * 7 days = 110 gal/wk = 3.58bbl/wk

This is a ballpark estimate. Try to find the spreadsheets from Republic Brewing (search for it on here). There are some very
helpful calculations in there on sizing serving tanks and how much to make depending on how many seats you have. 6
serving tanks would be okay if you could sell the beer fast enough. Your sales would be split between the 6 and that means
it takes longer to empty said vessels. This also plays into your brewing schedule and your business plan.
Ok thanks. That info helps a great deal. I find it hard predicting numbers. Cheers!
75 seats * 32 ounces/hour * 1.1 spillage factor * 1.025 sampling factor (guessing) = 2706 oz/hr = 170 pints (16oz)/hr * (1
gal/128 oz) = 1.31 gal/hr
if you serve between 11am and say 11pm closing, thats
1.31 gal/hr * 12hr = 16 gal/day * 7 days = 110 gal/wk = 3.58bbl/wk
Wow - Check your math.

It is not realistic to assume 1 whole turn per hour, either. If you did 2 full turns per day with a volume of only 2
pints/seat, you would have 300p/d = 2.4BBL/d * 7 = 17BBL per week. Thats 880BBL /year.

Hope that helps.
1. Crap, see my math error. I converted oz/hr to p/d, but then multiplied by 1g/128 oz, which does not work. Good catch!

2. Turnover, not a business owner and I have not had to review these financials before. I am looking into the business and
learning, but I was very clear when I said that the turnover rate should be reviewed and should be part of the business plan.
I guess what I was assuming was that you would have a near full house based on my 1hr/seat turnover, yours is based on a
sparsely filled house where only 150people/day show up while mine would be 1hr/seat*12hr*75seats would be 900 people
coming through. Some of the brewpubs here can do that, others can't. But how do you decide what the turnover is going to
be? I would size on the larger side, without being cost prohibitive, as I would think my brewpub will draw in large crowds.
900 may be overkill, but if you have a bar side, the turnover is going to be larger as beer is mostly all they are consuming.

Are there other thoughts on turnover? I think that should be a large part of your business plan as it will determine your
food sales, your beer sales, and you staffing needs. ALl of which you need to know to budget the brewpub and present
when asking the bank for money.















http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?7379-Tracking-Poured-vs-sales&highlight=spillage+pints
Tracking Poured vs. Sales
How are you tracking the amount of beer actually poured? Anyone using the inline flowmeters that can export data to your
PC? Any better options? I used to use serving tank volumes at the beginning of each week measured against sales but am
looking for something more accurate and flexible.Aslo does anyone have any reccomendations for remote temp. sensors. I
want to put a probe in the glycol that chills the lines that can be read at the bar. Wireless would be ideal. Thanks.
Spillage reports
Heya hiyas. From my experience, most restaurants and brewpubs do not track their beer spillage. Hell, most restaurants
don't track anything. I have never seen anyone use those inline flowmeters, but I've always assumed that large places (like
in Las Vegas) use them.

At my last place, we tracked it weekly, and if it became a problem, we could track it daily for troubleshooting. Things to look
out for:
- Openness. Let your bartenders know the current beer spillage, and because they are good honest people, they'll know
when to 'tighten up', or offer suggestions on solutions.
- Secrecy. Sometimes you should not tell your bartenders if you are tracking daily, as it could tip them off.
- Free pints. Let your bartenders pour X number of free pints daily. If you make that number 0, you may be setting
unrealistic goals for your bartender. Free pints need to be entered into the POS system.
- Beer accounting. This includes large, small, sampler, growlers, and kitchen use.
- Beer pour lines. Make sure your bartenders pour the same amount of head consistently by using glassware with pour
lines.
- Foam overload. Fix pouring problems promptly.
- Bottled beer. Track bottles separately from the taps.
- Calculating accuracy. When counting kegs, round to the 0.5 or 0.25 or 0.1, but if you have a lot of kegs, make sure you
calculate your theoretical plus/minus accuracy. If your goal is 14%, and at the end of the week you find spillage is 17%, that
may be okay if your plus/minus is 4%.


Cheers,
--Jake Tringali
I've used the electronic flowmeters sold by Micromatic with poor results. (One of the only things I've ever had a problem
with from them) We were required by the government to record every pour--problem was that these also counted the beer
line cleaner and the rinse! They consisted of a plastic housing with a rotating element inside. It tended to clog with the
dregs of the last beers poured from a serving tank and were difficult to unclog. They were not very reliable, either. This was
5 years ago and I don't see them offered on Micromatic's website. We replaced them with a German make (sorry-don't
remember) that worked well. Just remember that the more complicated the system, the harder the fall! Good luck!




http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?4182-The-Brewpub-Business-Model
The Brewpub Business Model
So I spend most of my time lurking on this board, but would like some of your thoughts on the brewpub business model.
I've been able to garner some different data and think I can model an "average" brewpub.

Let's start by assuming you have seating capacity for 100. One statistic I found suggested that the amount of beer you will
sell through your pub is equal to 5-10 bbls times your seats. For simplicity sake, let's assume 7. So that means one would
sell 700 bbl's per year. This would translate to roughly 164,000 pints per year (with 7% spillage/loss). Assuming you can sell
a pint for $3.50 on average, this means you would sell $575,000 worth of beer per year (using some rounding).

Another statistic I read was that 55% of total brewpub sales will come from beer and the remaining 45% from meals. This
would mean that you would have $470,000 worth of meals revenue annually.

Using backwards math, if you are turning your seats 1.2 times per day, that means you will serve 42,000 meals per year, or
an average of $11.20 per check.

So my question to any of you out there, does this sound right? Is this consistent with what you have seen?

Appreciate the comments.
Hi, It sounds like you have it made -on your Papers, it all will depend on your Location, your Product, your competition and
once more on your location. Your numbers sound ok. Are you aware at not all your customer will drink beer, your place
might average just 75 % of the 100 seating, I am for example in a small town with seasonal tourism, my beersales average
only 35 % and in my first year it will add up to around 150 bbl and i got 150 seating beergarden meetingroom, german food
and i got so far the best buisness in town, but it isnt easy to do the math like you have done it in a smalltown so your
location is important and your product too.
Harald Mois
Sharpen you pencil a bit
Harald is right on............

When we do the math to convince ourselves wether or not to get into the industry, it always looks that way..........all seats
filled, all drinking our beer, all eating a meal. Everyone's happy, and you're walking from table to table glad handing.

It really isn't that way at all.

Weekly Cycle
After having been in the "Brewery with an Alehouse" business for over 6 years, I would say that you really have to build a
cyclic model based on where you are at geographically and your services. At our place, Sunday and Monday nights are kinda
light with a build-up on Tuesday and Wednesday to our cask night on Thursday (good night). Friday is our BIG night, and
Saturday is variable.........between a Thursday/Friday in sales or a Wendesday/Thursday, depending on the moon.

Daily Cycle
During the day, if you open early, say at 11 am, you could get a lunch rush that might fill 1/2 you place, depending on the
location. If you're downtown, it could be at full capacity. Then, it dies off until the after work ("Happy Hour") croud comes
in around 4pm - 6 pm. Ideally, this should transition into a dinner rush that would peak around 7:30 - 8:30 pm and drop off
at 9:15 pm. If you're in a good spot, second shifters should start trickling in at 11 pm, but generally don't spend a lot since
they've already eaten. At this point, they're paying just to keep the doors open at that hour. You should have transitioned
much of your staff off by this point as well to keep labor costs down.

HOWEVER.........this really all depends on where you are located, local competition, and any surrounding businesses like
factories, restaurants (their closing staff make up some of your second shifters), and shopping complexes. It depends on
your staff, your atmosphere, and the quality of your products.

Seasonal Cycle
So........within a year, there are many factors that will add or remove business opportunity from you. Have you mapped
those, yet? Oftentimes, evenings just prior to extended holidays (Thanksgiving & Christmas breaks) can be real cash if
promoted and staffed correctly. If you're located near the water (as we are), summers can be pretty nice as well. If you're
located in an area where it rains a lot, then sunny days will be a hit to your business since many folks are working on their
houses, mowing lawns, going to places with decks, or hosting at their house. Halloween has ALWAYS been hard work to
drum up business due to all the parties. Superbowl is good for 3 or so hours, and college games can be good if you're in that
area.

Just a few thoughts...........
Thanx, Harald!
Thank you for the kind words...........

I looked up your website...........beautiful place you have there. Yes, I am one of the owners and founders of Diamond Knot
Brewing Co. I'm also a Manufacturing Engineer, and tend to dissect things a bit to see how they tick..........which applies very
much to our business operating plan here at DK.

Sorry, though, with two Breweries to oversee up here in Washington, I have to sadly decline the offer to drink real German
brews served with fine food in a great atmosphere.

However, if you should ever visit up here in Washington State, please look me up and I'll buy you dinner over one of our
fine Hefe-Weizens up here!

Thanks, and Regards........
Brian / Harald,

Great feedback. I certainly can appreciate that the local market will influence how close to some of these statistics a
brewpub will actually be.

A few comments. I realize that not every patron will have a beer and much of the time the pub won't be at capacity. I am
hopeful the statistics I found already accounted for those factors. So looking at the restaurant turns slightly differently,
assuming the same 100 seat establishment, 1.2 turns means you would serve 120 meals per day, or 840 per week. This
would include lunch, dinner, and late nights on the good days and the slow days. Does that sound accurate?

Thanks a bunch, I appreciate the input.

Jeremy


.....................So looking at the restaurant turns slightly differently, assuming the same 100 seat establishment, 1.2 turns means you would serve 120 meals
per day, or 840 per week. This would include lunch, dinner, and late nights on the good days and the slow days. Does that sound accurate?
Jeremy,

Without looking at the specifics of where you're at, what the business will "feel" like, or if you indeed have a menu that will
keep them coming in, I would say that guess is as good as any. I would say your average guest check may be a bit low at
$11.20. Our pizza's here start at around $10, and with a couple of beers we would expect a higher average check. We have
menu items that come close to breaking the $20 mark (steaks & fillets).

The average check depends on your menu. Not every person will buy a meal, though, and I would expect them to have at
least 2 beers if you're a little off the beaten path location wise (if you are a "destination").

Regards,
If you are really looking to put together a model don't overlook the NRA stats on restaurants. Also, i work for a company
that has 5 brewery restaurants, and 70% +/- of our sales come from food. Food will drive your business, beer will drive your
profit (+/- 20% of our gross sales)

also, 100 seats is small.....what's the square footage like? 700bbls for 100 seats is a ton of beer. Anyway...
Larry Horwitz
Also never over look the fact that not all the beer you sel will be YOURS! True there will be a lot of customers that come in
for beer, but they might want what ever macro or popular micro you have on taps as well.
Why would you sell anyone's beer but your own? That's your best cost of sale item. We sell no one's beer but our own.
Some people don't get it, but that's our opportunity to educate.

Ive heard lots of people say they have to sell outside beer....BS. My company does 20 Million a year at 5 locations and we
sell only our own fresh brewed hand crafted beers. Besides, if you sell someone elses beer you are cutting into your own
overhead. You already bought the brewery and every month you pay rent on the space it sits in, make it pay for itself!
Larry Horwitz
Why would you sell anyone's beer but your own? That's your best cost of sale item. We sell no one's beer but our own. Some people don't get it, but that's
our opportunity to educate.

Ive heard lots of people say they have to sell outside beer....BS. My company does 20 Million a year at 5 locations and we sell only our own fresh brewed
hand crafted beers. Besides, if you sell someone elses beer you are cutting into your own overhead. You already bought the brewery and every month you
pay rent on the space it sits in, make it pay for itself!
Respectfully, Larry, we do sell other Brewerys' beer and even wine. It makes us good neighbors with the Breweries we
select to have a guest tap. We also hold Brewer's nights to allow them to promote their products, and we get a strong turn-
out. We also only choose local Washington Breweries. I'm not so egotistical to think we make what every customer is
looking for, and still have Bud in the bottle in our reach-in cold case. It works for us, and business models vary. DK products
account for 94+% of all beer sales, but if a party of 5 comes in and one doesn't like microbrews, then we'll carry a macro.

Of course, we don't make $25M a year, either.

Just my $.02
Yes, I have found the NRA to have quite a bit of information, some relevant, some not. You just have to pry it from their
cold dead hands.

Scott
If you are really looking to put together a model don't overlook the NRA stats on restaurants. Also, i work for a company that has 5 brewery restaurants,
and 70% +/- of our sales come from food. Food will drive your business, beer will drive your profit (+/- 20% of our gross sales)

also, 100 seats is small.....what's the square footage like? 700bbls for 100 seats is a ton of beer. Anyway...

I have been looking at the NRA but as Sir Brewsalot has suggested, it is a bit of maze trying to get to the good information.

I would have to dig up the source, but the article I saw said that if you are planning a brewpub, a good rule of thumb is 5 -
10 annual bbls per restaurant seat. I split it and said 7.

I have seen another planning statistic that suggest one should plan 30 - 50 square feet per seat. So a 100 seat restaurant
would occupy say 4000 square feet total. This would include kitchen, storage, all other non-revenue bearing space.
hey larry, ever thought about at you company might make 25 million if they had other beers , i am sure there are customers who drink water just because
they cant ger her " Bud or whatever " and i am sure there People they dont come back after they found out at your company is so "arrogant " and make
everybody drink your beer, heck its a free country give the customers what they want, just price it right and you make more profit of a Bud as of yours but
at least you would have it available. Is your companys beer so bad at they have to fear everybody would drink Bud?
Not arrogant, just working the program. We are craft brewers. We make and sell craft beer. That is what makes us different
from Red Monster and TGI McSchratchie's. If we weren't different, why would people come to us? I don't know if you've
eaten at a TGI McScratchie's lately, but they are good at what they do. Also, don't be mistaken, we are competing with
these restaurants and they will eat your lunch if you don't do it differently and better!

Also, COS on a house pint +/- 3.5%....COS on a bottle of Bud +/- 25%... you do the math. You might make 25M selling bud,
but you'd be giving a whole lot of it to AB.......
Larry Horwitz








http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?119-Volume-estimates&highlight=national+restaurant+association
Volume estimates
We're trying to determine the volume of beer required for a new start-up brewpub/sm restraurant operation to service a
population of "average" beer drinkers in a community of 50,000. Equipment purchase decisions depend upon volume
requirements, of course. Any 'guesses' or 'estimates' from experienced folks would be appreciated; any directions to search
for same
information would also be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

From: Bob Taylor
xrgt@xscd.com
"...Equipment purchase decisions depend upon volume requirements, of course. Any 'guesses' or 'estimates' from experienced folks would be appreciated..."

Firstly, you should be able to guage your beer sales as a percentage of volume based on your anticipated food sales and
number of seats. Food sales and kitchen operating costs are far more important to a brewpub than what happens on the
brewing side because of the high labor costs involved. If you haven't already, you can contact the National Restaurant
Association
(www.restaurant.org) for a numerous amount of resources including the current Industry Operations Report.

That said, unless you have space constraints, here are some common sense tips to keep in mind:

1- The majority of all brewpubs in the U.S. are using between a 7 and 15 bbl system. Unless you have special requirements
these should be your basic choices.
2- The smaller the system, the more labor is needed. As sales increase, labor increases. You'll penalize yourself for your own
success by putting in a system that's too small. And, if you have to turn the beer too quickly you may end up hurting that
success with "green" beer.

3- The room needed for a 10 bbl system is not much bigger than what's needed for a 7 bbl.
The same is true for a 15 bbl vs. a 10 bbl, and so on.
4- The cost of a 10 bbl system is not that much greater than for a 7 bbl. Regardless of the brewlength you'll need a mill,
floor pumps, heat exchanger, CO2, hoses, floor drains, steam generator or gas burners, etc. When it's all said and done, it
won't cost much more to buy a slightly larger system.

5- You can alway add fermenters or switch them up to double their size, but it will be difficult to remove and install a bigger
brewhouse.
6- If you do put in a brewhouse that's too big you have several options. Outside sales, additional lagering time, split
batches, selling off an extra fermenter or serving tank, etc. If you feel you'll be successful you shoudn't have to worry about
that. (Stale beer in brewpubs is usually because they're trying to sell too many different brands and the slower sellers just
sit! It's not because the system is too big.)

7- Maximum production is usually based on the number and size of your fermenters (and the type of beers you brew) - not
the brewhouse size. So leave yourself room to add another fermenter - or increase their capacity by making them taller.
8- Serving tanks save money vs. the constant cleaning and filling of kegs. A 15 bbl server costs @$6,500 but the 30+ kegs
needed to handle the same amount will still cost @$3,750 new or even $1,500 used. They also save space vs. kegs!

9- Obviously this page is a great help, but don't be afraid to contact a brewer in your area. They're almost always happy to
help!
Cheers, Jim Brennan - From: Jim Brennan (brewer@krisbp.com)
http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?13438-Brewpub-Sales-per-
Seat&highlight=national+restaurant+association
Brewpub Sales per Seat
I've had my business plan "completed" for a few months, but I'm constantly revising it as new information becomes
available. Recently, I've been nagged by the fact that my projected revenue - for a brewpub with 50% food sales - is based
on National Restaurant Association data that seems to come almost exclusively from restaurants with 70-100% food sales.
The NRA Operations Report is great, despite the high price of information, and I wish that similar compilations existed for
brewpubs and foodless bars (the Brewers Association is on the right track with its brewpub survey, but I find the NRA info
far more useful). Anyway, I'd wager that total sales per seat typically peaks around 65-85% food sales. If you find this stuff
interesting, you can read more about it here:

http://republicbrewpub.blogspot.com/...ern-sales.html

Would any of you brewpub owners/managers be willing to share your annual sales per seat figures with this lovely online
community? I'm especially interested in brewpubs with food sales that are under 60%, but any data is good data. Here's
what I'm specifically looking for:

-Total annual sales per seat (excluding beer sold for carry-out and resale).
-The food sales percentage of that number (including non-alcoholic beverages).

If you want to help out but aren't comfortable sharing your sales information publicly, you can PM me or email it to jwalts
(at) gmail (dot) com. I'll post private responses as an anonymous summary in this thread.

Joe
Can I clear a room or what? Point taken with zero resentment .
Keep at it. I like your approach, and this has the potential to be an excellent thread. Unfortunately, I'm just a guy in a similar
boat with no data to share. Hope someone ponies up some ballparks, because this is a killer figure.
Hey Joe,

I knew if I searched a little I would find this. Here is a thread from a couple of years ago that had a lot of this info in it. I hope
it helps! I hope all is going well for you and "Jane" too!

Another Startup Post
John





http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?14312-More-important-with-startup-Location-or-
Seats&highlight=national+restaurant+association
More important with startup: Location or Seats?
I am finishing the first draft of our business plan for our company. Our goal is not necessarily to be a regional brewery or a
brewpub per say; at least at first. I am thinking more of a taproom, but with the majority of our sales through the tap not
through distribution - at least at first. I believe establishing a brand is important, but not just for our beer - for our services
as well (I can get into that later if someone is interested).

I am located in the suburbs of philadelphia with a good amount of brewpubs and a highly educated beer consumer
(relatively speaking). I have found a great location in a very affluent suburb with great walking traffic, but it is small - about
only 70 seats. In estimating our sales I am having a tough time. Most of the brew pubs in our area are large. I mean huge.
With more iron hill breweries than you can shake a stick at, not to mention a rock bottom, and manayunk (who sold 2150
BBL's last year alone). I'm no fool, I don't expect to compete with them in terms of sales volume for some time.

Our first location will be somewhere between a tap room and a brew pub as I said (We will serve 'gourmet hotdogs'). So I
don't really consider us a restaurant first. In reading this site over and over again, as well as others, I know I am asking for it
if I say "I'm not a restaurant", but I'm saying it anyway. But we will only have a 10 BBL brew system so we will be far from a
production brewery as well.

So... all of that being said - as a startup - Can a 70 seat place in a great location with money, high foot traffic, and educated
beer connoisseurs produce enough sales to make us profitable. I'd like to see 500 BBL's a year in sales - so I ask you... Is it
possible with only 70 seats and a great location - or should I find a less desirable location with more seats (and perhaps
more focus on food - yuck)?
I think it's great that you are asking yourself this question, because it is a very important one. A quick calculation...

500 bbl/year=1.5 bbl/day=46.5 gal/day=5952 ounces/day=372 16 ounce pints/day

No, I do not think that you will average these sales on a day-to-day basis with 70 seats, with or without food.
Good point. Of course I will have 1/6 BBL Keg sales to customers, growlers, and both direct sale accounts and distribution of
1/2 BBL kegs (over time of course). Using some simple calculations might be easy to help figure out expected sales if I could
have some insight into typical breakdowns of BBL per year by sales channel for similar operations. Any insight? What else
am I missing? Oh and perhaps some insight into volume projections for a 70 seat location - if i can get an educated formula
it might help better estimate size. Finally, any perspective on the location vs # of seats? I know - full of questions aren't I?
Many questions, not so many answers... Maybe some other folks can help you out with growler sales - I have no clue.
Distribution of kegged products is proportional to the time invested - check your liquor license to see if you are even
allowed to distribute directly. Without seeing the location, knowing your concept or tasting your beer, you can expect
(ballpark) 100-150 bbls/year in the situation you describe in your OP.

One other "warning": if you end up doing a full menu, you will need more staff and you will have a restaurant with a
brewery attached and not the other way around. Restaurant+Brewery+Off-Premise sales = LOTS of work and cannot be
done alone - even 2 people will have their hands full.

Best of luck!
I would say location is way more important. I would rather fill a 70 seat place than have a half-full 200 seat place.
Many questions, not so many answers... Maybe some other folks can help you out with growler sales - I have no clue. Distribution of kegged products is
proportional to the time invested - check your liquor license to see if you are even allowed to distribute directly. Without seeing the location, knowing your
concept or tasting your beer, you can expect (ballpark) 100-150 bbls/year in the situation you describe in your OP.

One other "warning": if you end up doing a full menu, you will need more staff and you will have a restaurant with a brewery attached and not the other
way around. Restaurant+Brewery+Off-Premise sales = LOTS of work and cannot be done alone - even 2 people will have their hands full.
Thanks. A 100-150 BBL/year estimate is good to know. I believe we are allowed to do direct sales, but I will check (PA laws).
Your warning is exactly why I'd prefer staying away from a full menu so we can focus on our products and services.

So what estimates for a 70 seat location with a ton of foot traffic, high residual income, strong population (12K@1 mi,
56K@3 mi, and 177K@ 5mi), and along a street where there is nightlife (AKA - doesn't shut down at 8PM). If you can
provide a calculation as well that I can apply to different scenarios that would be great.
I would say location is way more important. I would rather fill a 70 seat place than have a half-full 200 seat place.
Ok, so if you fill a 70 seat place what sort of sales might you expect?
Sorry, I have no idea. I am just the brewer, I don't run the place.

Sounds like a great spot that you have found, though.
Ok, so if you fill a 70 seat place what sort of sales might you expect?

Try and determine what you expect your average ticket price will be. You'll need to do some menu planning. Another idea is
to visit some of the establishments close by to see what kind of traffic they get. Visit them both during the week and during
the weekend. If you make friends with one of the owners/managers, they may tell you what their average head count is.
Size in of itself doesn't matter so much as volume of business. I ran a 120 seat restaurant that did around $60k a week in
the spring and summer months. It was busy from 11am til 2am. Average ticket was probably around $25 bucks. We tried to
turn tables every 45 minutes.

If you are planning on just some light bar food and beer, your ticket price is going to be fairly low. You'll need to keep the
place full to have any chance of it making any real money.
Sorry, I have no idea. I am just the brewer, I don't run the place.

Sounds like a great spot that you have found, though.
Hmmm... ok, so then you know how big a place you work at and how much beer you're brewing... haha. That should give an
indication of volume.
Try and determine what you expect your average ticket price will be. You'll need to do some menu planning. Another idea is to visit some of the
establishments close by to see what kind of traffic they get. Visit them both during the week and during the weekend. If you make friends with one of the
owners/managers, they may tell you what their average head count is. Size in of itself doesn't matter so much as volume of business. I ran a 120 seat
restaurant that did around $60k a week in the spring and summer months. It was busy from 11am til 2am. Average ticket was probably around $25 bucks.
We tried to turn tables every 45 minutes.

If you are planning on just some light bar food and beer, your ticket price is going to be fairly low. You'll need to keep the place full to have any chance of it
making any real money.
Yep, I am using 2 beers and a dog average, so figure the average ticket will be low like you said; say $12-$15 or so. The
neighborhood has about 3-4 good bars people hop from. One, a belgian beer bar is tiny but always packed. They serve
some food and I would bet have less that 70 seating capacity, but they have an attached restaurant (BYO). I'd really prefer
to be less of a restaurant as stated in the OP. If I plan on doing that then should I have at least 1 FT sales guy to increase
offsite sales?
My suggestion: get your "ducks in a row" with the bar/restaurant and then a few months down the road you will know 1) if
you can afford a FT employee for such tasks 2) if you have the capacity/storage to sell off premise.
My suggestion: get your "ducks in a row" with the bar/restaurant and then a few months down the road you will know 1) if you can afford a FT employee
for such tasks 2) if you have the capacity/storage to sell off premise.
Well right now I am planning for 3 FT employees; a brew master (I'm a home brewer, not a professional), an brewing
assisstant, and a Bar manager. I am thinking about having one or more of these positions out selling when available until I
have capacity for a 4th FT sales guy. The question is can I ditch the assistant for a sales guy to make just 3 FT employees and
get a PT assistant or is the assistant that critical in the beginning?
We have 64 seats, we also sell kegs in three sizes as well as growlers no food. Our first year we sold 485 bbl, second year
655 and this year looking at 740bbls. About 80% of sales are through the taproom the rest in kegs.
For a 10 bbl brewhouse producing 500 bbl/yr you should only need one brewer. You could probably be trained as a part-
time assistant brewer to help out if needed. But one person should be able to handle that.
Hutch Kugeman
Head Beer Guy
Crossroads Brewing
Athens, NY
We have 64 seats, we also sell kegs in three sizes as well as growlers no food. Our first year we sold 485 bbl, second year 655 and this year looking at
740bbls. About 80% of sales are through the taproom the rest in kegs.
Those are impressive numbers - or do you all consider this normal sales for a taproom situation?
Keep in mind that hank's sales percentages are probably for dollars and not barrels, and that there's a big price difference
between the two types of sales. Hank, would it be in the right ballpark to say that you sell 400 barrels on tap and 340
barrels in kegs? That's impressive, and it speaks volumes about the importance of location.

I've been using National Restaurant Association data to estimate my expected pub/tap room sales. To compensate for
selling more beer and less food than most places represented by the NRA, I adjusted the numbers with this equation (based
on two NRA data points):

Sales per Seat = ($9,859 - $8,961)/(85.4% - 72.1%)*(FoodSales% - 72.1%) + $8,961

For a place with no food, the calculation results in $4,093 per seat. At $4/pint, that's about 4.1 barrels per seat. It's a huge
generalization, but it's a place to start. You'll never know for sure until your doors have been open for a while.

Joe
We have 64 seats, we also sell kegs in three sizes as well as growlers no food. Our first year we sold 485 bbl, second year 655 and this year looking at
740bbls. About 80% of sales are through the taproom the rest in kegs.
And you do that in Billings, Montana?! Now that is impressive! What's your secret? I'd love to learn more about your
setup/etc as this sounds a LOT like what my goal would be.
Keep in mind that hank's sales percentages are probably for dollars and not barrels, and that there's a big price difference between the two types of sales.
Hank, would it be in the right ballpark to say that you sell 400 barrels on tap and 340 barrels in kegs? That's impressive, and it speaks volumes about the
importance of location.

I've been using National Restaurant Association data to estimate my expected pub/tap room sales. To compensate for selling more beer and less food than
most places represented by the NRA, I adjusted the numbers with this equation (based on two NRA data points):

Sales per Seat = ($9,859 - $8,961)/(85.4% - 72.1%)*(FoodSales% - 72.1%) + $8,961

For a place with no food, the calculation results in $4,093 per seat. At $4/pint, that's about 4.1 barrels per seat. It's a huge
generalization, but it's a place to start. You'll never know for sure until your doors have been open for a while.

If you put those projections against Hank's size (64 seats) you only come up with 264 BBL's. Hank's would work out to closer
to $7517 per seat year one.
I saw a review online that said Hank's charges $3 per pint, and I assumed the business self-distributes kegs for around $110
per half-barrel. His numbers are much better than what I've seen at other brewpubs, so I decided to use more conservative
assumptions for my own projections.

Joe
I (Black Raven) just opened what you are proposing. PM me for more info. We are on track to do at least 500 BBLS in year 1,
most all in taproom (38 seats + overflow into brewery area makes about 60). We have no kitchen. Pick location over seats in
my opinion. I am not sure about your labor projections either...

Small taprooms can work but they are market and location specific. Of course, this assumes you make good beer and the
place is inviting with good service.

You are smart to estimate sales volume low for planning purposes. Be careful also that they are not too low and you were
not ready for your success if things go well. Prepare a low, middle, high projection for your pro forma and think about how
the brewery would work/flow.

-Beaux
The 80% figure is for barrels through the tap room not sales numbers. We do charge $3.00 per pint which is less than most
places around us. We are in a converted three bay gas station right in the middle of the down town entertainment district.
Packed all the time, even I am amazed at how much beer we can sell. We do self distribute.
Wow! Fantastic!
The 80% figure is for barrels through the tap room not sales numbers. We do charge $3.00 per pint which is less than most places around us. We are in a
converted three bay gas station right in the middle of the down town entertainment district. Packed all the time, even I am amazed at how much beer we
can sell. We do self distribute.
Ahhh... this supports me belief that having the place in close proximity to other bars, retaurants, and the like will help not
hurt us. Another point for location.

What did you look for in a location?

Oh and Hank I just looked you up. Open from 4P-8P Mon-Sat? Another interesting point here - you are selling lots of beer
with not being open long hours. And in reading a review of your place I also learned that Montana has a 48 oz per person
per day law??? I assume this is for breweries? So if this is true, you only sell beer for a total of 24 hours a week with a max
of 3 per customer and STILL have that sort of success!!! OK, what is the secret... seriously.
Good location, good service, consistantly good beer and clean bathrooms. We only do beer and only our beer. No wine, no
guest beer etc. No entertainment (if allowed to, people do a great job of entertaining each other). No food except popcorn.
All of this coupled with the three pint limit make for huge turn over of each seat and therfore our ability to sell alot of beer
in a short period of time. Seat and table turn over is the key it's that simple.
Ok, so how do you define the perfect location?

The one I was thinking about I am having second thoughts on. It has lots of money, but that might equal an older croud who
want fancy. It has good bars/restaurants along the street, but instead of bar hopping - they might choose to hop right over
the taproom since there is not a focus on food.

So what should I look for in a location for a brewery taproom - not a restaurant that serves beer. Will we have food? yes.
Will it be the place you go for dinner? Doubt it.

So - any advice on the definition of a perfect location?
If you're doing a 70 seat venue in an area with a lot of foot traffic, I'd cut seats in favor for more bar space and bar tables
with barstools, standing room with ledges to put your beers, etc.

If there's a lot of nightlife in the area, you'll get more people wanting to stop in for a few pints at the bar than sitting down
for a meal, especially on weekends.












http://republicbrewpub.blogspot.com.ar/2009/03/tavern-sales.html
Tavern Sales
Recently, the Brewers Association released its 2008 Craft Brewing Statistics and the National Restaurant Association (NRA)
released its 2009 Restaurant Industry Forecast. Last week, I updated RePublic's business plan to reflect the new
information. Diving back into the numbers got me thinking about whether or not my sales assumptions are reasonable.

Every year (I think), the NRA conducts a nationwide survey of restaurants and publishes the results in a document called the
Restaurant Industry Operations Report. In the most recent edition, the median sales per seat for restaurants with average
checks of $10-$14.99 was $9,859. I've been using that figure as the basis of RePublic's expected revenue, but one thing
about the number bothers me: the median food sales reported by the NRA was 85.4% of total sales, but I'm only expecting
food to account for 50% of RePublic's total sales (the NRA considers non-alcoholic beverages to be food, so 'beverage'
equals 'alcohol only' throughout this discussion). Common sense suggests that bars without food will typically have far
lower sales than $9,859 per seat. Unfortunately, I don't know of any published data that describes the sales of
establishments with less than 70% food. I also suspect that sales per seat will drop for restaurants with no alcohol, which
should cause a bar/restaurant sales prediction to look something like this:


I know that one former tavern in town sold about 50% food and generated around $5,500 per seat in annual sales. The
place wasn't open seven days a week, though, and I wouldn't describe their operation as "busy". Returning to industry-wide
data, the NRA provides five data points that I feel are useful (all for restaurants with average customer checks under $15):

-Median sales per seat (checks of $10-$14.99) = $9,859/yr
-Median food sales (checks of $10-$14.99) = 85.4%
-Median sales per seat, no booze = $8,345/yr
-Maximum reported beverage sales = 27.9%
-Maximum reported beverage sales per seat = $2,500/yr

Assuming the 27.9% and $2,500/yr figures are from the same establishment, the total sales per seat would be $8,961. That
allows us to describe three scenarios based on NRA data:

-Sales per seat with 100% food = $8,345/yr.
-Sales per seat with 85.4% food = $9,859/yr.
-Sales per seat with 72.1% food = $8,961/yr.

Using that data, a linear graph can be drawn that looks like this:


It's not pretty, but at least it acknowledges that total revenue will depend on the food-to-beverage sales ratio. The result is
that RePublic's projected sales per seat would drop from $9,859/yr to $7,469/yr. I'm aware that every market is different,
but the raw NRA data should be in the ballpark. Comments from bar/restaurant owners on how I'm interpreting that data,
or on sales per seat vs. food/beverage mix in general, would be most welcome!

justabrewer said...
Joe, isn't the profit margin on beer much higher than the profit margin on food? Especially when you are making
the beer. I think profit per seat per year would be a more useful statistic.

--Tony
March 10, 2009 at 4:40 PM

Joe said...
Hey Tony, no, I'd much rather know sales per seat because profit per seat is based on a lot of factors that will
change from business to business. It would be like replacing original gravity with alcohol content in a beer recipe.
The NRA reports operating expenses as percentages of revenue as well, so I'd have to figure out revenue per seat
either way. Calculating profit from revenue is a lot easier than calculating revenue from profit. If you want to see
how I calculate profit, go to http://jwalts.googlepages.com/business and download the 'Financial Model -
Brewpub' spreadsheet.
March 10, 2009 at 6:19 PM



http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?14511-Can-a-Brewpub-Succeed-in-a-Small-Town
Can a Brewpub Succeed in a Small Town?

I am a homebrewer that has completely been taken over by the brewing process. I have been doing it for a few years now
and am looking to sell my current business and open a brewpub. I am tired of the big city and want to open the pub in one
of two smaller towns. One has a population of 6k and the other about 15k. Both towns are on the Mississippi River and
have high tourist traffic during the non-winter months.

Can a brewpub make it in conditions like this? What are some of the things I should consider during the startup process?
Does anyone out there have a brewpub in a similar town that would be willing to share their sucess/failures?

I have a long way to go to realize a dream. This is only the start.
I sure hope so
cuz we're doing it in a town of 8k, county of 40k in the middle of freakin' nowhere. We're doing a production brewery,
though so there are probably some differences. Big tourism factor like you, though, in the warm months. We just had our
ttb phone interview and our brewer's notice should arrive shortly (then the real wait for state approval begins). We're doing
a 1 bbl system on a trial basis to ensure us (and the bank) that we have the demand. If we don't (which I'm pretty sure we
do) we're only going to be out about 25k between 4 people which we all agreed initially we were willing to lose just to take
a shot. If it goes well we'll make the real investment which many (here and elsewhere) will tell you is a much larger chunk of
cash. Go for it.
Howdy,
We are a production brewery in a town of approximately 4500, on an indian reservation, in northwest Montana. The closest
"big town" is about 55 minutes to the north then Missoula (about 70 minutes) to the south. Our summer traffic increases
times five relative to the winter. We have what has been called "the largest tasting room in Montana" so our walk-in traffic
figures greatly in our bottom line. We sell about 30-46% to distributors, the rest is sold on-premise. Small town breweries
can not only "be done", they should be be done. This is the heritage of craft brewing at it's best (in my opinion). EVERY
small town should have it's own brewery, along with it's own bakery, coffee house, and "adult entertainment".
The thing is in a small town; it's just harder. Your population base is smaller therefore, your customer base is smaller. You
MUST do everything as cheap as you can, you have to be willing to sacrifice your paycheck during the slower months for the
good of the business. Promote your business a part of the community, be a good corporate citizen; donate a keg or two
here and there for good events. It's the locals that'll keep you going during the slow times.

Luck to ya'
Prost!
dave
bnihart,
We are attempting to get one started in a town of 6500 with 3 other towns in a 20 mile radius. Those have populations of
1800 on the low end to 12,000 on the high end. It will work...I'm not letting anyone tell me otherwise.

All I'm going on is advanced homebrewing skills, 2 years of restaurant experience and a passion for wanting my own place.

I agree with Dave that EVERY small town should have it's own brewery.
The question to ask is: Can a bar/restaurant succeed in a small town?

Because THAT'S what your target market is, folks who go out for food and drink. The fact that you'll (hopefully) have tasty
beer will be a marketing plus, but if the joint ain't happening, it doesn't matter how good the beer is...

Tim
One has a population of 6k and the other about 15k. Both towns are on the Mississippi River and have high tourist traffic during the non-winter months.

Can a brewpub make it in conditions like this? What are some of the things I should consider during the startup process? Does anyone out there have a
brewpub in a similar town that would be willing to share their sucess/failures?
Consideration #1: Get local government on your side. Since you're considering 2 different cities, see if they're willing to
complete for your business. The more support you can get from the local government, the faster you can have all of your
permits and be ready to sell.

Consideration #2: Get the local population excited. You're going to need the locals to be on your side to be able to make it
through the lean months. You may want to try setting up mug clubs, growlers, local specials, etc. to make sure you get foot
traffic during the low tourism months. Also, getting involved with the local community goes a long way (get involved in local
gatherings, have a banquet room to allow local group meetings, etc.)

Consideration #3: Allow yourself brewing flexibility. Buy a smaller brewhouse (5 bbl?) but don't skimp on the number of
fermenters and serving tanks. This will allow you to offer a wide variety of beers, plus you can just work like crazy in the
tourist times and always have tanks to fill, but in the lean times you can keep it down to just a tank at a time.

Consideration #4: Find a location that has great potential. Perhaps a diamond in the rough, that is a bargain right now and
would only take a little elbow grease to make it really cool. This way you can have a great place that maintains a low
rent/mortgage. Think outside the box, don't just go for the place that's ready to go in the local strip mall.

Okay, those are my suggestions for if I were starting something in a small town. Good luck!

--Gabe
Yes, of course you will do just fine!! We are a brewpub in a town of 2500. Small towns really support small local business.
We have a large tourist base in the summer months but do pretty well during the winter months. Your biggest and greatest
step is getting the locals support and make it "There brewery" Good beer and Good food along with great atmosphere and
you wont have any problem! Cheers

Kyle
The question to ask is: Can a bar/restaurant succeed in a small town?

Because THAT'S what your target market is, folks who go out for food and drink. The fact that you'll (hopefully) have tasty beer will be a marketing plus, but
if the joint ain't happening, it doesn't matter how good the beer is...
+1 on this. I'm the brewer for a micro in a town of about 18k and it would be nothing without a successful restaurant and
key location smack in the middle of town.
I have a great story that I hope will help.

Here in Idaho we have a town called McCall. McCall is a beautiful but sleeply little mountain town that exploded during the
real estate boom and since the bubble burst it has fallen into virtual depression. They've had a brew pub for years but its
never done very well and has changed hands multiple times.

This past March a couple guys I know opened up a competing brewery called Salmon River Brewing Co. They opened up in a
remodeled house a couple blocks off the main street. They have a 10 bbl system, the kitchen is a couple gas grills and a rice
cooker under an awning on the back patio and they are packed every single day of the week. They're so busy they're
struggling to brew beer fast enough to keep the taps open.

Their secret was to cater to the locals where the other restaurants and bars are all catering to the tourist. They're producing
excellent sushi and a small pub menu, some pretty good beers that get better every time I visit and they're keeping their
prices down to keep the locals coming back. They have the only busy restaurant in town now.

I guess what I'm saying is if you're in an area where you have a lot of tourist coming through keep in mind that everyone in
town is fighting for those dollars. It might be a good idea to look at your neighbors and see what would get them in your
place.

Cheers.













http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?37627-Brewpub-Water-usage
Brewpub Water usage
Hey everyone,

Do any of the brewpub owners out there know what their water usage is? So far I've seen estimates of 1L of beer=8L water,
and for 1Bbl of beer=6Bbl of water, but those are both from facilities that package their beer in cans/bottles for distribution
as well. Seeing as our brewery's water usage will be combined with our restaurant's, we may be creating a whole new evil.

Any help in this area would be great.

Cheers!
A usage to production ratio of 6 is pretty decent. Getting it down to 4 or 5 takes some really intensive efforts. I would not
be surprised that a brew pub had a ratio of 8 to 10. Homebrewers can be in the range of 15.


















http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?36145-Startup-Nano-Brewery-Size-For-Growth-or-Ideal-Location
Startup Nano Brewery - Size For Growth or Ideal Location
I am in the process of starting a small nano brewery in a ski town location. My plans are 3 BBL with small tasting room. I
have found what is the absolute perfect location in terms of proximity to downtown. Well there is no proximity, it is directly
dead center of the walking area of downtown, good stores restaurants and bars nearby. I have drafted the layout and I get
roughly 10 seats at the bar, 12 seats at a community table, and 16 seats at hightop tables. This leaves the brewery with
roughly 350SF of brewing space. I plan to do all of my keg cleaning and general duties outside of the actual brewing room
and am planning on starting with pre-milled grain to save space. There is a current small hotdog joint in the space next to
this one that I would hope to be able to take over in time. The place is slightly chopped up, but I like the layout. Take a look
at the attached sketchup model.



My main concern is will I be regretting this in a year or two. This location has absolutely no room for expansion; no larger
equipment, no additional seating, no room to move to serving vessels...... My plan is not to grow into a distribution facility,
but to stay as a small local brewpub.

Anyone have any input on this from past experience.
If anyone has any comments on my layout that would be appreciated also.

Thanks,
Andy
Hideaway Park Brewery
Location, location, location
You could save some major space if you went with jacketed FVs and glycol rather than a cooler:

- You'll also build in a bit of expansion capacity this way, because the FVs can be taller and/or closer together, allowing for
more FVs or even a brite or two.
- It will increase flexibility, as you can ferment a saison in one tank and a lager in the next, and cold crash individually.
- FVs out in the open are much easier to clean, add dry hops, swap out blowoff buckets, etc.
- Most importantly, it will improve fermentation temp control (read: overall beer quality).

You could open up the space by taking down the brewery walls. Most brewery patrons want to SEE the brewing equipment,
and the open floor plan makes the space feel larger. This may not work with your concept (or local fire code).

You could play with layout a bit, trying to fit the brewhouse/cellar/cooler across the entire back wall. This would open up
the space and potentially add more room for bar stools and/or long tables. Without knowing more info about the building, I
may just be blowing smoke here.

I assume there aren't many spots like these in your town, so I would do all I could to make it work. I can't tell you if you'll
have enough capacity - that all depends on your sales projections. Does your lessor also own the hot dog company's space?
If so, try to work in first right of refusal. Can you expand to or build on the voids in the bottom left/right corners?
Kyle Kohlmorgen
Process/Automation Consultant
St. Louis, MO
Kyle, thanks for the quick response. I would love to get to jacketed vessels but right now it is cost prohibitive. My plan for
the fermentation was a "fake" L-wall that can be moved out of the way to access the vessels. I can take down any walls
except the main wall between the front room and the back room, was just trying to save some initial tenant improvement
costs. The hot dog shop is the same owner, it is actually in the space to the left of the front room. So to answer your next
question, I cant build on the left space, nor the right space. The right space is a set of open wooden stairs going to a
snowboard shop upstairs.

Thanks again.
If your really worried about it sign a shorter lease with first opportunity to renew. It sounds like its in a great location, and if
it's cheap enough lease for you i would say go for it no matter what.


http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?33732-Soda-in-Brewpub
Soda in Brewpub?
How many of you serve soda in your brewpubs? I'm talking Coke/Pepsi out of a soda gun or fountain.
Glacier-Do you serve a full menu of food?
I answered "no" because we don't serve Coke/Pepsi products. We do however serve a full range of local canned soda as
well as 2 draft sodas of our own.
Hutch Kugeman
Head Beer Guy
Crossroads Brewing
Athens, NY
I answered "no" because we don't serve Coke/Pepsi products. We do however serve a full range of local canned soda as well as 2 draft sodas of our own.
Thanks, good info. Do you think your customer base would be upset if you didn't offer any soda?
Glacier-Do you serve a full menu of food?
No, very limited menu.
We do make our own sodas though.
Glacier Brewing Company
406-883-2595
glacierbrewing@bresnan.net
Glacier,
How do you make your sodas? Rather, where did you come up with the recipe for it?
Thanks
Glacier, How do you make your sodas? Rather, where did you come up with the recipe for it?
Hi OGBrewer,
I developed my soda recipes in my home kitchen through trial and error and thinking what's would look for in a craft soda.
I think offering soda helps us appeal to a larger audience. I don't think you have to offer soda, but if it comes to just keeping
a case of cans in the cooler, then why not? There's always kids & designated drivers to consider. I can understand not
wanting to make your own draft soda (although it's not really that hard), but I think it's always a good idea to have some
non-alcoholic drinks available. Hutch Kugeman
I think offering soda helps us appeal to a larger audience. I don't think you have to offer soda, but if it comes to just keeping a case of cans in the cooler,
then why not? There's always kids & designated drivers to consider. I can understand not wanting to make your own draft soda (although it's not really that
hard), but I think it's always a good idea to have some non-alcoholic drinks available.
I'm somewhat jealous, I really don't know where to begin to make soda, aside from adding water to a keg with some sugar.
What PSI do you keep your CO2 at? Where do you find recipes?
We have a full menu in our brewpub and do offer soda. However we only carry a local soda companies product and it is sold
by the bottle only.
ENCUESTA
GASEOSAS SI: 66%
GASEOSAS NO: 33%





















http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?25266-Nanos-turn-a-profit
Nanos turn a profit?
Curiosity has overcome me and I must know. Is there anyone operating (or was) a nano commercial brewery that was able
to turn a profit and create a true good living (excluding spouse income real job, trust fund, lotto winner) for the
owner/brewer? I'm not being a smart ass or trying to stir up a hornet's nest. There seems to be a large movement towards
nano but no real data to prove that it works long term. My assumption is that it is a low cost way to test the market, attract
investment or just dip toes in the water and see if you want to swim with the other fish.

Beaux Bowman
Black Raven Brewing
Redmond, WA
I'm a month from starting a lease and my last review of numbers shows that it is possible, but it relies heavily on if taproom
sales are as expected.
I'm not prepared, or even expecting, to quit my day job yet, but if I can sell enough in growlers and pints, there is a chance I
could split ways and do this full time. It will be difficult to pay myself and recoup the initial $30k investment until I upgrade
to a larger system, however.

It also depends on what you define as "A good living" and how that compared to cost of living in your area.

For reference, I'm leasing 2,400 sq ft for $1500 a month. From what I've seen, I think that's quite a deal.
I can also self-distribute, sell growlers, and sell pints, and have been told that I could expect to sell half of my 10 bbl/month
production right from the brewery. If that's true, I have a chance by increasing production to 20 bbl and hope the tap room
sales increase to match.
I hope it works for you WitsEnd. I am looking for data from someone who has done it and not just on paper. The reality is
many costs appear after the brewery starts (or in construction) that were not projected in the planning stages. In most
cases, this dollar/percentage amount was the theoretical profit margin and now there is nothing left.

On a side note, if someone figures out how to do it, they could write a book and make some extra income.

-Beaux
I'm tossing around the idea of offering up my business plan and finacials to those that are interested. I have a friend that is
helping me with a kickstarter video and wants to put out a documentary on the startup of the brewery. Once filmed, I
thought it would be worthwhile to do his own kickstarter to edit, compose, and produce the DVDs. a second tier could be
the operatioanl books on my nano startup.

Either the documentary would end in a crash and burn of the nano or building toward a full production brewery. Either
way, it ought to be an interesting story.

I'm just not 100% sure I want to offer up my last 3 years of research and the next year of proving that research out, for sale
on a kickstarter campaign. There's a TON of work that has gone into it and anyone would have to verify the numbers and
application would apply in their situation anyway. It seems like what I'm doing will work, I just need to prove it.

So, if I get a flood on facebook because of this post, I may feel obligated to move forward with the side project.
Otherwise, hit me up for info. Glad to share when I have the time. My lease starts June 1st. It's go time!

Patrick Sundberg
Jack Pine Brewery
Baxter, MN
Www.jackpinebrewery.com
I hope it works for you WitsEnd. I am looking for data from someone who has done it and not just on paper. The reality is many costs appear after the
brewery starts (or in construction) that were not projected in the planning stages. In most cases, this dollar/percentage amount was the theoretical profit
margin and now there is nothing left.

On a side note, if someone figures out how to do it, they could write a book and make some extra income.

-Beaux
Personally I think a lot of it has to do with the laws in a given area. If you can self-distribute, sell pints of beer in a tasting
room, etc. (i.e. avoid the three tier system) you can keep more of a profit in-house.

The conventional wisdom is that anything less than a 7bbl system is doomed to fail, but I think that also is making the
assumption that you're selling your beer wholesale for distribution to bars and liquor stores. Taking that approach means
selling on a per-bottle basis roughly 1/3 of what you could sell it for yourself on premises, so yes, that requires a greater
volume of production to be a profitable enterprise.
Being able to retail pints and growlers is key. If I ran a nano frankly I wouldn't distribute at all if possible. It helps if you can
have guest taps as well. I've seen a few nano's seem to do well because they also hold tavern licenses and serve tons of
good guest taps, wine, etc... But for a local example Beaux I think the Dons at Naked City (here in Seattle for everyone else
out there) did a great job by opening a bar first, thereby getting a rep for serving great beer while they waited the year for
their little brewery (it's a 3bbl as I remember) to come together. Now they usually carry nine or so of their own beers, don't
distribute, and have 15 guest beers on tap. Maybe more ambitious, closer to a brewpub technically (since they serve food),
than your typical "homebrew gear in a shed" nano but that's what I'd do if I was going that route.

Also, here in WA you're allowed up to 25% of your taps to be guest taps on the standard micro license. So if you had
something similar in your state you'd need to make the decision of greater profitability selling just your own beer vs.
greater variety and backup in case you suddenly run out.
Russell Everett
Co-Founder / Head Brewer
Bainbridge Island Brewing
Bainbridge Island, WA
Nanos in the black
Around Florida, Nano's have been working quite well. Tasting room sales, whse keg distribution and specialty bottling.
When I think Nano...the 3.5bbl is right out. For the same money you can spend on a 3.5bbl, you can get a 5bbl. Brewery
equipment companies are falling over each other with affordable Chinese stainless. Almost 100% of new equipment I'm
seeing in start-ups is decent quality, Chinese manufactured tanks, sold by American companies. With a 5bbl...you can use
10bbl Fermenters, 4-10bbl Fermenters can produce 1040bbls of Ale annually...4brews per week...that's not too shabby. I've
been a part of around 14breweries opening up now...the single most expensive item on the budget might be principal
equipment, but the greatest expense is going to be ancillary costs surrounding the brewery (packaging
materials/kegs/fillers), installation, contractor costs and tenant finish. $50K is not going to cover it, I like $250K much
better. How much do you know, how hard can you work and who do you know that can help you get the work finished is
three questions I like to ask. If you are doing all the work you can legally do, that will shave off thousands. If you are a Dr.
and don't intend on scraping up floor tiles or knocking out a wall, you're going to have to pay more than the guy who has a
brother that loves beer and is a self employed contractor.

So if your passion and dream to bring your creation to the retail market seems out of reach, perhaps you could afford to
have a beer contract brewed. Once you establish a revenue stream for 2+ years, banks start lining up to loan you
money...because you are no longer a start up company...you have proof of a business taking in revenue. You might also
strike a deal with a brewery to operate under a rotating proprietorship license. You brew on their system over the weekend
and bring in your own fermenters and brite tanks. To split the costs of a breweries lease and operating cost is incentive for
a brewery that has marginal profits.

Lastly, one thing that troubles in particular about new start-ups is the lack of recipe development. Previous knowledge of
brewing is not enough...recipe development should have been in the forefront of the entire business model. Lot's of folks
can brew good beer, your interpretation and spin on any given style of beer is what makes your product special. If you
haven't developed a brand yet or lack the ability to configure a brand, hire someone that is qualified to brew and fine tune
your flagship beer recipe to be where you want it to be. If you're broke now and love to brew...start brewing small pilot
batches. It's never too late to plan for the future~
After reading, re-reading and reading again to the point that my eyballs are ready to fall out of my head at 1:30 in the
morning all of the posts that are relevent to my plan, I thought that this would be the time to chime in on what I have going
on. Trust me I don't need to be directed to anymore threads. I hope it's OK to latch onto this thread. Maybe I'll start a new
one.

I'm a loooong time homebrewer (go ahead and shake you heads and long time business owner but have no practical
experience in commercial brewing. I'm certainly not a dump and stir brewer, my all grain system that I designed and built
myself is semi automated with all elements hard piped from the HLT all the way through the chiller into the fermenters. My
process includes O2 infusion, filtration for some styles, yeast propagation and barrel aging. OK so maybe I just have more to
forget??

Anyway my plan:
I have the golden brand name handed to me on a silver platter. Can't divulge it yet as I'm working on trademarks but trust
me. I have a location that is a little on the expensive side but is a hub of MAJOR tourist activity. The idea is to put a 3 bbl
system with tasting room at this site which I consider to be the store front and "face" of the brand. I want to brew there,
and I will, mostly specialties and developing new standard recipes but the idea is to develop and market a brand. I will be
using contract brewing for the majority of the product and use the standard distribution chains to get it out there.

Pros:
Sufficient budget (over 100k)
Business experience
Brand name
Brewery and tap room location that will showcase the brand to visiters from across the country. (the merch on this brand
will be gold!)
Good relations with local microbreweries for contracting and packaging

Cons:
I know nothing about commercial brewing.
Rent is a little on the high side ($1.5/sq ft.)

Don't know what else I can say. I just have the business plan complete but have not commited to a lease. Gonna get the
sytem from Premier stainless. There's a brewery nearby that has a 15 bbl from premier and I can hang out with them on
brew days.

That's my story. So awesome to have these forums to learn and try to figure out how NOT to do it.

Steve
@Steve: I think your budget is too low for what you described (depending on what side of over 100k you are on). It's not
the equipment that kills the budget, it is everything else. Don't forget working capital in your budget, you will not be
breaking even any time soon most likely. I would also factor at least 25% extra for delays and unexpected costs. I would bet
that even 25% is too little on your first attempt with no industry experience. Probably more like 40%.
-Beaux
It'll be tight. I have a $30k target and I'm using my current homebrew setup with double-size plastic conicals. Adding even a
small taproom with a half wall in an industrial space is tying up easily a third of the budget.

You have to be VERY mindful of all your costs if you're going to go small. Things can add up very quickly. I caught a break
finding an architect to take on the project for free. That was my last expense that was sprung on me. It wasn't the brewery
that did it, it was changing the use from warehouse to taproom that kicked in the need for an architect with the city.

I'm already $2k deep in permitting and zoning with the city, not to mention the eventual on and off sale licenses. Small
things add up fast on a tight budget.

Research, research, research, and keep a running balance sheet of projected startup costs, including expenses before you
are selling beer. It will get more accurate as you get closer to opening. You'll also see that negative balance creep up as you
find more and more items that require payment.
Thanks, I appreciate the input! Beaux, I actually have 50% built in to what I call the F factor (F is for fudge) And
witsend I have no intentions of starting small. I will be contracting and serving beer whether the brewsystem is up and
running or not. It's all about the brand. Also the other factor in my favour is I own a profitable manufacturing company that
takes at the very most 2 days of my week (usually part of one day) to make a living. I'm in the process of working a normal
40 hour schedule to build an inventory so by the time the brewery starts up I will have 1/2 a year of regular income without
having to work at all.
From what I've seen the most important thing for a nano is fermentation space. If you skimp on fermenters you'll find
yourself out of beer constantly and without beer you're out of business. If you're opening a nano buy lots of fermenters and
lots of kegs.
Owner
Grind Modern Burger
PostModern Brewers
Boise, ID







http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?20226-Small-Brewpub-Set-up
Small Brewpub Set-up
Just a couple quick questions, I am thinking about opening a very small brew pub. The restaurant is already intact and has
been operating effectively for the last 15 years in a busy downtown location in Maine. The restaurant owners however
spread themselves a little thin and have to close up shop.

I have been reading multiple threads, articles, books on start-ups and I am interested in starting small and slowly growing
over time to eventually distribute. My intention is to use a method similar to Sam Caligone (Dogfish Head), brew alot of
small batches. The main reason for this is to keep costs down.

My question is can I realistically make enough beer with 55 gallon kettles to support a small brewpub? Will something like
The Electric Brewery (theelectricbrewery.com) work? Also, what can be a cost effective way to ferment and serve the beer?
Any information would be great. I am passionate and determined to make a go of this, but I am also trying to create a
realistic business plan. Thanks.

Dan
I've designed this system with 55 gallon kettles to make 4 different 1bbl batches in a brewday as easily as possible and
hopefully be able to keep a bunch of taps supplied with constantly rotating styles. The system relies on the BCS-462 for
automation. I made some diagrams and explanations showing a 2bbl and 4bbl semi-automated brewday. I've got another
diagram in the works to show how I think I can also make this system produce a 10bbl batch of a single style in one
brewday.

I *think* it will work well in a 200bbl/year brewpub or taphouse environment and possibly a whole lot more when pushed
to the max.
John Little | Auburn, Alabama
General Counsel, Southern Farmhouse
I was thinking of doing something similar, until I read here and on another brew system manuf site, I don't recall which
now, that indicated they sell 3.5 bbl systems, and only recommend htem for pilot breweries. 3.5 bbl is just too small for a
production brewpub. They indicted if it becomes popular you'll never be able to keep up w/ the demand. The bare
minimum they recommended is 7bbl and 15 is better. I'm now looking to do a 15 bbl system across the board, and building
my business plan around that. We'll see how it goes *crosses fingers*

~Phil
I've never, ever, ever met a brewer or brew-pub owner who told me, "I wish my tanks were smaller."

Buy the best equipment you can afford. Borrow if necessary. If your town can support a brew pub, it will be more apt to
support a consistent brew pub.

Consistency is the key -- and that's harder to do the smaller you go.

I'm currently brewing on a 20BBL system, and I wish it was ten times bigger. The economy of scale is of utmost importance
in brewing. It's usually the difference between profit and loss.
The issue comes down to cost. Any idea what a decent (turn-key) 7bbl system would cost? And should I buy new or used?
This is just a brewpub, but I can see us expanding at some point. I don't know if I'm better off just starting really small or
going to the bank with a bit larger scale project...

Does anyone have any recent experience with a bank in regard to brewpubs in this economy? Are they open to the idea or
not so much?
The answer (as usual) is it depends. It depends on the Town. It depends on the Bank. It REALLY depends on your business
plan! If you walk into a National bank that has to report to someone in NY, you probably wont get a call back. If you talk to
your local bank president, and have a SOLID plan with 1, 5 and maybe even 10 year projections that you have researched
you will have a much better shot. My bank was really great to deal with because they bought in to the concept from day 1.

As far as the system goes - yes go as big as you can afford! If you can only afford a small, used, frankenbrew system (like I
have) you will be brewing your ass off. If you are trying to do that, run the business, bar-tend, etc. you will go insane. Trust
me!

I am still trying to get our construction debt paid off, and then will be able to expand our system, but until then, it is going
to be a lot of work, especially when you see over 3BBL of beer get poured over 1 weekend!

Good Luck!
Cheers!

Jeff
Carbondale Beer Works













http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?23801-Nano-Square-Feet
Nano Square Feet
While searching for a location for my smalll 3 bbl system, I found a tiny place that will barely hold my homebrew equipment
(465 sq ft).

So I started thinking, who has the the smallest nano out there (in terms of square feet)?
We do it all in 800ft2.
Mike Hess
President/CBO
Hess Brewing Co
San Diego's first nano-brewery
est 2010
Hey Mike,
Thanks for being forthcoming about your size. We are considering a very small startup as well. Our equipment is *just*
smaller than yours. We are looking at a space that is 915 square feet. Would you mind elaborating on what you have in
there (size and # of fermenters, tap house size, etc). Do you have sufficient space or do you wish you were bigger? Do you
think you have enough room to grow?

Thanks!
Check out the awesome blog Hess Brewing has maintained which has all the info you need. It can be found at
http://hessbrewing.blogspot.com/ Most of the start-up info is in 2009 and 2010.

All future nano's owe the guys at Hess a big thank you for this effort!!

Andrew Knechel
Bucks County Brewery
You know, I've seen this before (a LONG time ago), but I really need to go back and give it another look. Thanks for
reminding me.
1.5 bbl in 192 SF. it is tight.


Kirk Bosi
ISOB Brewing Company
Manhattan, IL
1.5 barrel system in 150 square feet. It's tight, but everything is working great in that little space.
This is the smallest nano I know of...hes a good friend and may take the title of smallest commercial brewery in the country
if not the world.

http://growbeer.com/

His brewery is about 20' x 20' !!

His system is 1 BBL, just like Lawson's Finest liquids used to be (he's 7 BBL now)

Beer CSA is an awesome model that he's pioneering, he uses 99% local malt and local hops!

He also makes the best root beer I've ever had.

Cheers to nanos
Our brewery in the brewpub is about 225 sq. ft. (15 X 15). I brew on a one bbl system (Blichmann) with 7 one bbl. FV. I brew
about 250 bbl/year. The batch turnaround time is a little quicker than I'd like during our busy season (Winter/ski), but this
set-up has served us pretty well over the last 5 years.

Jamie A. Caligure
Brewer
Cave Mountain Brewing Co.
Windham, NY 12496
We brew on a 1.5 bbl, The total size of our space is 220 sq ft. Brewery and all. Looking for new space for expansion
currently, just too crammed and we want to have a taproom.
We have a 2bbl in 3500 square foot. The taproom is 750 of it and the rest is brew floor, loading dock, office etc.

Huge space for this sized system but after building it out once it will sure be nice to not relocate because we need to
expand.











http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?40162-Multiple-serving-temperatures-with-modest-bar-set-up
Multiple serving temperatures with modest bar set up
I am in the process of building out a bar. My ideal scenario would allow me to serve certain beers at temperatures warmer
than the standard 38F. A few up at 45, some at 50. I am installing a walk in cooler next to the bar and will run glycol along
the lines. Has anyone successfully accomplished multiple serving temperatures with a single walk in and one glycol chiller?

Thanks
If you want to separate temps, you have to separate things mechanically.
SO if you wanted to use central glycol chiller for that duty, you could partition your walk in in for example 3 rooms, each
with its own glycol fan bank and its own cooling control set to where you want it. The design needs to prevent cooling
bleedthrough from adjacent zones.
Otherwise you could serve from bottles say but still you need separate controlled boxes at those temps to store as thus. Or
you could use keg coolers in the bar set to the desired temp. Any DX refrigeration cabinet can be custom fitted with the
newer style digital controls as made by JCI etc, and will maintain very well what they are set for if the box is put in correctly.
If your bar had some length say, you could use double sided draft boxes and load them from behind. But you would still
need your keg storage at the same temp.
The line chiller for draft lines would be a separate challenge that does not have an easy solution. Again if you need
separation which would seem to indicate another tube bundle with a higher loop temp. Draft cooling loops are constant
circulation systems so you would really need another line chiller for your higher temp runs to do it correctly.
Warren Turner
Industrial Engineering Technician
HVACR-Electrical Systems Specialist
Moab Brewery











http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?39910-Taproom-equipment
Taproom equipment
Hi, we are in the process of completing our business plan and had a question about outfitting the taproom. Does anyone
have a list of the bar equipment needed to outfit a taproom.
First and foremost, you need plumbing, electricity and HVAC.

Behind the bar, we have two small refrigerators for soda, water, etc. We have a 3-tub sink and use this to wash,
rinse and sanitize glassware. We bought an electric glass scrubber (Google Barmaid glass washer), that goes in the
first tub with low foaming beer-friendly detergent. Second tub is just water to rinse the detergent off. Third tub is a
final rinse sanitizing tub. We also have a separate hand sink for hand washing.

You'll need some kind of point-of-sale system and cash drawer. We use an iPad based POS with a cash drawer,
receipt printer, cash drawer and credit card swipe. I suggest you have internet cable run to wherever your POS
system will be.

Tables, chairs, bar stools, the bar itself, PLENTY of glassware, lots of rags, spray bottles for cleaning tables/surfaces.

Then there's the draft system. You'll need a draft tower. Mine has 8 taps and cost around $800. But the draft
system goes way beyond that.

The tap room has to have adequate lighting as well. And don't forget a sound system if you want music.

That should at least get you started...
Neil Chabut
Eudora Brewing Co.
Brewery and BOP
Kettering, OH









http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?38353-Is-3-Phase-Power-Really-All-That-Better-Than-Single-Phase-To-
A-Brewery
Is 3 Phase Power Really All That Better Than Single Phase To A Brewery?
I'm no electrician, but I did stay at a holiday inn last night (ok...watched a bunch of youtube videos and read some articles)

From what I'm reading on 3 Phase power, it's two primary advantages are that it's better for motors because there is a
constant supply of power (where as single phase on a 120v line produces 0v 60 times per second), and it can push more
power through less total conductive material (lowering your material costs).

I haven't read this anywhere, but my theory is that if you used electrical power to fire your brewhouse, the elements would
heat faster with the 3 phase as opposed to the single phase (either 120v or 240v single phase) because the elements are
getting a more constant supply of power?

Any other reasons 3 phase would be preferred over single phase when it comes to brewery operations?
3 phase power becomes advantageous for high horsepower motors. It does not offer an advantage when used in resistive
heating. For the typical small craft brewery, it is not a requirement to have 3 phase power since most motors are relatively
small.
The one place 3 phase is a major advantage is with HVAC and Refrigeration loads. Single phase for anything over 3 HP on
that duty is not desirable.
It easily allows variable frequency control. There are also no capacitors involved.

Pax.

Liam McKenna
www.yellowbellybrewery.com
Variable Frequency Drives work on 3-phase, allowing fine control of pumps, fans, etc. But, many VFDs available these days
can also convert single-phase to 3 phase, so having 3-phase to the brewery/restaurant may not be needed. These VFDs are
usually fairly small, 1hp or so, so if you're running 3+hp motors you'll be better off with direct 3 phase.

As for resistive heating, 3 phase means fewer wires. Our 12-element, 72 kW Delta array in our HL tank uses only 12 wires,
where single-phase would require 24. Since each wire still carries the full 6 kW/element, there isn't a savings in wire size,
just number.
Timm Turrentine

Brewerywright,
Terminal Gravity Brewing,
Enterprise. Oregon.
Hobnob--Here's a picture of our 3-phase, 12 X 6 kW element heating array:
The elements are in four groups of three, color-coded for easy maintenance. The wire with toasted insulation was salvaged
from an old boiler--looks bad, but the insulation is intact.

Timm Turrentine
So how much water can you heat how quickly with 72000 watts? If you don't mind me asking?
Joel Halbleib
CBO "Chief Brewing Officer" / Zymurgist
Bluegrass Brewing Co
636 East Main St
Louisville, KY
www.bluegrassbrewing.com
Heat capacity of water is 4.19 kJ/kg (the energy required to heat 1 kg water 1 degree). kJ is the same as kWs. If you want to
heat 1000 litres of water 50 degrees that means that you need to utilise 209500 kJ (1000 liters *4,19* 50 degrees), ie
58kWh.

With 72 kW, you can heat 1000 liters in 58/72 hours, ie 48 minutes 20 seconds. Theoretically of course. Depends on
insulation, evaporation etc also.

Sorry, never before made a post, couldn't resist.
In addition to that array, we have a second array of 6 X 6kW elements on the other side of the HLT, for a total of 108 kW.
Together, they heat the apprx. 10 bbl HLT from 45F to 195F in 20-30 minutes. Mash in, refill the HLT, and it's ready for the
sparge. Tim T.
3-phase draws half the amps as single phase, which is what makes the meter turn. Its cheaper to run, especially a motor
than runs 24/7.
Oops!! Thats 240 vs. 120 volts, not single vs. 3 phase. What the hell was I thinking? lol lol
That still doesn't sound right The same load at twice the voltage would draw half the current (amps), but the same power
(watts). Electricity is metered on an energy basis, in kilowatt-hours. The energy used to run the motor for a given period of
time would be the same* regardless of what voltage it's running at.

*Actually, I suppose the 120V motor would draw a little more power due to transmission losses, but that's an immeasurably
small difference.
Right as right
A10T2 has it. Energy is energy. Meaning that your meter turns just as fast with any voltage/phase to heat water as anything
else. Three phase for heating water is no more efficient than single phase. Your energy on your meter (measured in kW*h
and/or kW) is the same no matter the voltage or phase. Electrical heating is almost 100% efficient at heating water; again,
regardless of voltage or phase. Some considerations do apply, however: higher amperage requires larger contactors and
larger conductors, so you may be slightly more inclined toward higher voltages/3 phase than what would be required for a
single phase lower voltage (110v) supply. Personally, I like the smaller conductors for foreign installations. One only needs a
small 4mm cable to transmit 15kW electrical load to a fairly large chiller with 440 x 3 phase!
Right as right
That is correct.
But we pay electricity by usage and volume.
If you have smaller potential (Volts) you need to have larger volume (amps) to deliver the same amount of energy (wats).
And that means that you will pay more at 220V service then 480V service for the same amount of energy (kilowatts).
Three Phase Power is cheaper, more efficient, and better for equipment
Lots of stuff on this topic online. From one electrical forum:

Here is an example using amperage values from the NEC motor tables (tables 430-150 and 430-148). Real-world values may
be slightly different, but you get the idea. Both are 1Hp, 230V:

Single-phase motor is rated 8 amps. 230V x 8A = 1840 watts.

3-phase motor is rated 3.6 amps. 230V x 3.6A x square root of 3 = 1434 watts.

So, at full load, the 3-phase motor uses 22% less power to do the same work.

3 phase can help reduce the peak energy load per day at the brewery. Typically commercial electric bills charge for BOTH
kWh AND peak energy demand. The peak charge will typically be half your bill, which with refrigeration, heating water!,
HVAC, etc. can be substantial. Since your peak will be lower using 3 phase it could save some serious $$$

Good luck

http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?36775-Demand-Charge-vs-Energy-Charge
Demand Charge vs Energy Charge
Question regarding estimating utility (electric) costs for a 20 BBL brewery. I know that the electric bill consist of a demand
charge (per kW) and an energy charge (per kWh). I've found plenty of resources to estimate the latter, but I need help with
the former. I realize it depends on equipment, process, etc but how can I get a reasonable estimate for what my demand
(kW) will be? Appreciate any input!

Danny
When I went through it, the demand charge is based on peak kW usage over a time period. It was 15 minutes as I recall. So
worst case scenario, how many kW would you consume in 15 minutes if all your electrical equipment was running at full
power.
Ok I understand that, but I'm trying to get a ballpark estimate of what that number will be (as I haven't purchased any
equipment at this point). I assume the chiller consumes the largest chunk of that demand?
Correct. Your chiller and cooler will probably be the largest load. Bump that up 15% or so.
Do you have an idea of what equipment you will be buying? typical brew houses have 3 pumps, 1 for mt/lt, 1 for the bk, and
one for the HLT. For me, my pumps are 3.3kW each. Then I have a 2.2kW mobile pump and glycol chiller that is 10.8kW for
5 tons. This is all for a 10bbl brewery. Very rarely are all items running at the same time. The bigger the brewery, the higher
the kW. Typically I will have 2 pumps, the chiller and 14 fluorescent lights running at any time, that would be my max. That
would increase as brewing and cellar operations begin to overlap more.
Thank you both for the replies. That's what I was looking for. I'm just now starting to really get into equipment
researchtrying to get a utilities estimate catapulted me into the world of refrigeration. Are you using a single glycol chiller
for both fermentation/bright tanks and a cooler?
Our unit runs a 25x10x10 cold room, 2 brites, 4 fv and the hx when needed. I do shut down the tanks that are cold crashing
during knockout since it causes my glycol temps to rise slightly higher than what i need if im cold crashing. Capacity wise,
this is good for about 90bbl in cellaring and a cold room twice that size. Our chiller is rated to 60,000btu/h.








http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?20651-Spent-Grain-as-an-Ingredient-in-Menu-Items
Spent Grain as an Ingredient in Menu Items
I wanted to ask the collective wisdom for tips on using spent grain in baking; pizza dough, bread, soft pretzels and
cookies/desserts on a commercial level. Our restaurants want to create some menu items utilizing the spent grain from the
brewery and a few questions have come up. Of course we will do testing of our own but just looking for some starting
points.
Storage of spent grain: We believe freezing it is the best way but does someone have a shelf life for this? Is there a better
storage method?
We think to use the spent grain in bread and it might need additional soaking; is this true and for how long?
We need a replacement ratio for flour to spent grain; dose for every 1/4 cup of spent grain used remove a cup of flour
sound right?
Is there a significant difference in the spent grains baking performance and flavor based on the style of beer it came from?
Are there some styles of beer that the spent grain is not adequate for baking; wheat beers, rye?
Of course if there is something I have missed here that any of you have learned over the years of working with spent grain
on a commercial level as an ingredient in menu items, your insight is very appreciated and welcomed.

Thank you in advance.
Jamie Martin
Brewmaster
Moosejaw Pizza & Dells Brewing Company
brewmaster@dellsmoosejaw.com
Just from a few experiments I've toyed with I can answer a couple of your questions.

Spent grain will keep in the freezer for several months, it can make quite the mess though from the moisture.
Different brews will affect the flavor of what your making.
I also know you can't use very much spent grain if its not being milled down to flower - you can add the grains as they are
and it makes a great addition to breads and the like, but don't expect to replace the flour in the recipe with spent grains.

Hope that helps

Manu
Nexus Brewery
It may not be a popular view, but I've always thought that they were called "spent" grains for a reason. Most sidestream
products I've had from spent grain just leave me picking husks out of my teeth.
To help with the husk in the teeth thing...

We dry our spent grains on sheet pans in the oven. The pans are put in a hot oven overnight (the oven is turned off)

In the morning, the 'dried' grains are 'sifted' through a colander (sp?) (like you would use for draining pasta).

Much of the husk is retained in the colander (depending on the size of the holes - try different sizes for differing retention
rates - nice to have some husk). Whatever goes through is stored in glass jars with tight fitting lids until needed in the
kitchen.

We use this in pizza dough, bread, pretzels on occasion, dog biscuits.

In some recipes, we use 50/50 spent grains/milled malt. The milled malt is treated the same way (ie pushed through
colander to retain much of the husk)

As for flour substitution volumes, I can offer no guidance.

Pax.

Liam McKenna
www.yellowbellybrewery.com
To help with the husk in the teeth thing...
Just to add to all the other comments using the grain in bread and other food is not a difficult process. First look at the style
of beer that was produced and taste the grain. This will give you an idea of what the finished product will taste like. Stouts
make great dark bread (Rye sub)or sweet breads and Ipas make nice pizza crust or pretzels/bagels. As for the flour and
drying there is no need to dry the grain. You only need to add less water to the mix to offset the wet grain. The flour added
can be in any increment as long as it is more than 75% of the total flour added. You cannot use cups you need to use a
bakers scale to weigh out the ingredients. Also because if the beer was produced properly there will not be any sugar left
for the yeast to properly ferment so you will need to add some back into the mix. The bread is usually more hearty but it is
worth it to produce. If you have any more questions I will see if I can help. Cheers Steve at Mayan Brewing Co














http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?33098-Estimating-BBL-needed-per-week
Estimating BBL needed per week
Hi all, first post here at probrewer!

I'm at the very early stages of a brewery, where ALL sales are in taphouse. (at least phase 1)
It is a Bring Your Own Food concept, in a densely populated area. Think of it as a brewpub without the food.


I plan on 50 to 75 seats, but am having trouble estimating how much traffic I am likely to get. I've heard 5 BBL per seat per
year, and was wondering what you all thought of that figure. How many pints a week do you sell? I have a million more
questions, but this is the first one that will influence all the others...


Thanks!!
I have a million more questions, but this is the first one that will influence all the others...
If your beer is really good you'll sell out.
If it's not so good you won't be as busy.
If it's really bad, you won't sell any.

So, I don't think "how much will I sell?" is a good first question.

The first step in manufacturing planning is to define your product quality. All production variables are based on that.
We have 50 seats, no major food, outside food encouraged.
We did approximately 450bbls in house last year. And we're on an island...
So I guess maybe rethink that 5bbls per seat rule. You'd probably be lucky to break even at 250bbls (without
food/wine/liquor revenue as a brewpub) unless your place is a postage stamp and you trade growlers for rent, but it could
happen.

The better way to think about it can be average check x seats x turns. Think about how many pints on average your patrons
will have. Say, two. (Some will have one, some three, some five, some none.) Fifty seats occupied once is 100 pints a day.
1.2 turns of those seats is 120 pints a day or about a keg. Keg a day average = 182.5 bbls a year. Now add in the fact that
there were nights we've filled 60 or more growlers. You start getting to two or three kegs a day. I find this is also useful for
ballparking revenue, and thinking about how much glassware, staff, etc you'll need. I advise creating a spreadsheet to do
this sort of stuff, and make a "sanity check" box where it breaks down your projections into "a-ha!" stuff like "Pints per
minute", "Brews Per Week", "Pints per Patron", and so forth. Anything in there starts to look wack, check your assumptions.
Russell Everett
Co-Founder / Head Brewer
Bainbridge Island Brewing
Bainbridge Island, WA
Thanks for the responses- both were helpful.

I'm looking for ballpark figures, and I have to make some assumptions for now. (such as the beer WILL be good- I am
actually budgeting for brewing help)
I'm trying to get a reasonable expectation on pints sold per week at retail, BEFORE growler sales.

I'm looking at 2 pints per customer, so 10 dollar checks. (no food in this model, it's BYOF)

So I guess I'm trying to get averages for for 50ish seats. In other words, how many people come for drinks in a small
taproom, on average?
Everyone wants to make "good" beer. "Good" is not an objective, attainable product standard. You will always fail to meet
that goal.

Sorry to get meta here, but in my opinion, the reason there is so much variation in the quality of craft beer is because many
breweries don't have clear quality standards and objective evaluation. I don't think you need a full lab and a sensory eval
panel, but if "good" is a moving target, you have no idea if your product actually meets your standards. "Good" beer might
become "good enough" beer when you have to decide between dumping a mediocre batch and paying rent. If you don't
know if you meet your own standards, you can't identify problems or opportunities.

You're always limited by your resources, whether physical, human, or financial. Every business is unique in that regard.
Most breweries use the same physical inputs (they all buy from the same suppliers) so no one has a real advantage there.
Some breweries have more financial resources than others, but there probably isn't a lot of variation for a given size.

The biggest difference, the one most likely to yield big gains from marginal investment, and lead to a sustainable
competitive advantage, is the human resources. How well can you run a business, and how well can you and your staff
make beer? That's rhetorical. I'm not implying you can't make "good" beer, whatever that means. These are just things you
need to think about before you can make a master budget.
Nateo
Thanks Nateo, I appreciate the input. There are subtleties about the idea of "good" that I haven't worked through yet. (As a
brewer myself, I am never satisfied by the quality- I always want better while my assistants roll their eyes.)
How would you, then, approach a rough feasibility analysis based upon quality?

I understand that Quality will influence how many people show up at my door. Absolutely. My feasibility analysis WILL take
that into account.

I'm still very early on in the planning, which is why I'm looking for rough numbers. At this stage, gathering info and starting
to plug in numbers which will get more precise as the process moves along, I have to make assumptions.
I have to assume, at this stage, that my beer will attract my target customers, and my figures will be comparable to the
average.

Only because I don't really know how much beer a craft bar moves a week, on average. I don't know the ballpark numbers.
I'm closer to knowing what my break-even point is, I want to see if I'm way out of my reckoning in terms of profitability.
If there are beer bars near your proposed location, you can always do a little reconnaissance to see how many folks are
there on average.

Obviously not an exact science, but it's a data point to let you know if you're in the right ballpark or not.

Also, if you're selling growlers to go, it's entirely possible that someone may come in, have two pints, and then buy a
growler to go. That's 6 pints for one person...
Kevin Shertz
Chester River Brewing Company (in-planning, opening in 2014)
Chestertown, MD
If you want to pm me your email address, I have a pdf that goes over planning, performance, and control that would
probably be really helpful. If you can understand and apply the concepts from that pdf, you'll be in a better position than
almost every other small business owner.

If you're using market (customer) expectations or industry benchmarking to set quality, costing and pricing standards, you
probably won't be able to achieve any operational advantages. You'll be following, not leading. Lots of businesses achieve
modest success that way, so if that's your goal, that's fine. That approach isn't conducive to continuous improvement.

For what you're doing, a benchmarking or expectation approach is the easiest place to start. I assume you don't want to be
an average brewery making average beer, though, so averages probably aren't that helpful for your strategic plan. But,
most people are average, by definition, so if you take an honest look at your resources (especially yourself) and decide
being "the best" isn't feasible, then benchmarking is the best approach.
Planning PDF
Nateo, if possible, I'd be interested in the planning PDF you mentioned. I'm in planning currently and this very topic is one
of contention.
Are you sure your idea is permitted in New York (I see you listed as NYC in the original post)? I think you may have to offer
food in order to have a liquor license (and thus sell beer by the pint).
Hi Hutch! I read about crossroads recently, I wanna come visit!

My idea has changed somewhat, food will be served, but it will be paninis, charcuterie, and cheese plates. Stuff like that.

Now that I'm pretty much done with homework for the semester (halfway through MBA, can't stop now...) I will have time
to work on the Feasibility Analysis again.
I hope to have it complete and ready to share in a week or so.










http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?33740-Ideas-to-bring-more-business-into-a-new-bar
Ideas to bring more business into a new bar

Hi,

So I am starting to manage a recently opened beer bar and would love to hear about what some other people do to bring in
customers that wouldn't normally stop in. If anyone has any advice, tips, or ideas I would love to hear them.

Many thanks,
Amanda
What kind of bar are you running?
What's your vision of what the bar will be?

You could partner with local restaurants to provide pairings for beer tastings.

Community events can be useful. Get a local brewery to have a tap take-over, have a trivia night on the slowest evening,
have live music, etc. Bands usually have friends who will come to see them and drink beer.

You could also try to organize events where the pay-off isn't as immediate, but doesn't really cost you anything. Maybe let
some charity or something that needs a meeting space use the bar during your slow hours. If you look like you're a genuine
part of the community, and can get your name out there in a positive way, it'll probably pay off in the end.
Hi Amanda, where are you opening this?
There a million ways to promote a (beer) bar. Trivia/pub quiz, beer dinners, happy hour, mug club, loyalty program, price-
off deals, food/beer combinations, holidays, special releases, tap takeovers, pint glass giveaways, swag giveaways, firkin
days, etc. You need to ask your customers what they might be missing, or look around and see what niche you can fill.
Concentrate on a few and do them well, don't get too crazy and confuse folks. Commit to a certain number of ideas and do
it for 12 months, don't do it twice and say "that didn't work", because chances are extremely high that nobody knew it was
happening.
My local has become EXTREMELY successful over the past 2 years. I've watched them catch fire, and I attribute it to several
reasons.

Without a good foundation, no amount of marketing/events/savvy will yield growth.

1. Great food. We have a lot of bars in the area with better tap selection, but their food is average.
2. Great beer. All the time. It can be 5 taps or 50, but it always has to be changing. 5 or 6 well-curated, ever-changing taps
are better than a gigantic taplist filled with boring options that are rarely fresh.
3. Great staff. Knowledgeable is great, but I'll take a bartender that's friendly and new to beer over one that's a Certified
Cicerone and a prick.

If you've got all that, it really depends on your customer base and brand. A few things my local is doing that bolstered
success:

1. Seasonal menu, keeping a few of the favorites around. I still get excited for the cheese of the week.
2. Lots of tap takeovers. I really enjoy going to sample lots of beers from one brewery. It generates exposure for your bar
and the brewery, and helps you form a relationship with them. Just make sure a "tap takeover" doesn't mean 2-4 of their
year-round beers.
3. Forge relationships with local breweries and distributors.
4. Firkins are great when served properly.
5. Beer dinners are a positive if you have the space to accommodate. Most small bars would sacrifice too much business to
quarantine a space for a few diners over an entire evening. Another option is to get your chef involved with a multi-
chef/multi-course dinner. Again - collaboration is an awesome thing.

Good luck!
Some of my favorite bars are also cafes. There is a ton of overlap between the fancy coffee and the fancy beer crowds.

I wouldn't do that if it will spread you too thin, or you and your staff otherwise can't do it well. But if you can do it well,
you're paying rent 24/7 anyway, so you might as well bring in some extra cash in the morning.
















http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?33507-Which-brewery-to-Restaurant-Semi-Automatic-or-Menual-
Brewery-Plant
Which brewery to Restaurant. Semi - Automatic or Menual Brewery Plant?

Hello,
I'm owner of quite big restaurant in Poland, and I would like to invest my money in microbrewery.
So from one year I have been tried to figure out how to do it.
I became from research in different sources, I've been in many brewery-restaurants, pub's even I've been in few company's
which producing a brewery plant's. Now I know some People which want to cooperate with me and invest their money in
my company.
And I would like to ask some questions in this forum,
The first basis question is:
Which Idea you think is better,
Cheaper menual brewery plant, or
Semi-Automatic brewery plant like Kaspar Schulz, Wachsmann, or SALM?

The point is I want to get unique and really good beer, low producing costs and making good show in restaurant.

Some other questions:
Is menual brewer plant is really cheaper in producing?
Which is cleaner?
And is the type of brewery-plant has any influence on brew quality?
Is that true that menual brewery plant's not requiring service such a automatic plant's ?

Sorry for my English but i tried my best.

Also I would like to add that I want to get 5 hectolitre (around 130 gallons) brewery Plant.
Do you have a brewer yet? He would probably be able to help you pick a system.

Automation can lead to more consistent, higher-quality beer, only if done properly. A manual system will require a lot more
labor, so over the long-run it might be cheaper to get an automated system. I don't know how much good labor costs in
Poland.

5 hectoliters is pretty small. If you have a big restaurant, and plan to sell a lot of beer, I'd look at systems of 10+ hectoliters.
Congratulations on deciding to open a brewery.

There are several things to consider before selecting a system. First and Foremost - What is your production vision? Do you
want to make some beer for your restaurant? Do you want to supply all the beer for your restaurant? How much sales do
you anticipate annually? Do you intend to do some packaging for outside distribution?

Also, What type of space constraints are you working with? How much capital investment are you willing to make?

Kaspar Schulz makes fantastic equipment. I know them well and I've been to Bamberg to tour their facilities. They use a
Siemens based automation and it's a top-notch system. Typically going full automaton for a 5 HL system doesn't pencil out
if you are purely interested in the numbers. Automation will start at about 60K for the package. Generally automation isn't
considered until you reach an economy of scale of about a 30HL brewhouse.

To answer your question about the quality of the beer - Yes, you can make fantastic quality beer on a non-automated
brewhouse, just as you can an automated. Automation will relieve some labor and give you a higher expectation of
consistency, but a competent brewer and brewery team can do just as well on a non-automated system.

I have updated quotes from several fabricators and a very detailed set of costing sheets, if you are interested in bringing my
team on board as your consultant we can help fit you in the perfect system for your situation.

Cheers,

Tomas
http://breweryconsultantgroup.com/
I would check with AWS Prospero. I know their stuff is awesome and is made in Europe and would be cheep to ship to you.
They would be able to help you with design too.
Aron Levin
St. Florian's Brewery
Windsor CA 95492
www.stfloriansbrewery.com
www.facebook.com/stfloriansbrewery












http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?31497-Brewpub-Floor-Plan-Suggestions
Brewpub Floor Plan Suggestions

I am in the process of starting up a brewpub in a building we are currently renovating. The building is from the late 1880's
and was probably about 2 years away from having to be razed. Either way, we are in talks with the architect to finish up the
1st iteration of the floor plan (and hopefully final). Here is the main floor plan, I may post the upper level too if anyone is
interested in giving some thoughts or feedback.

A couple of Notes that aren't clear:

The booths on the right and left walls are raised.
The rectangular things in the entrance area are plexi-glass flooring panels to view into the servings tank room below
The HLT in the brewery is likely going to be a hot water holding tank rather than a full on HLT
The CLT is the bigger tank to the right
The bar behind them shows the glycol lines and connection space.
There will be trench drain splitting the brewery.
Behind the kitchen there will be a path to the road and under the kitchen will be storage space (also be a grassy area for
small festivals, etc). The path will allow for deliveries and we'll likely use a motorized pallet jack.

My main concern at this point:

*Grain removal. I am thinking an auger of some sort will be the best bet but I'm still racking my brain to come up with the
best overall system. I am also looking at using a dump system into the basement where we can pallet it up to the back road
for pick up.

Any thoughts, ideas, concerns...anything at all would be excellent. Thanks.

I don't have anything to really contribute, other than that's a really nice layout! What will your menu be? I'd go with an rake
out in the MT and just cart the stuff out the back if possible.
I see you have a bunch of detail in the rest of the floor plan but there is none in the kitchen. So depending on what you
want in there it might be too big or too small. Do you have a place for a walk in cooler/freezer, work flow, prep area, dish
line? Your general seating plan looks good. But by your wait station you have a stair case going in to your booth area, I
would either remove it or put come kind of block in to keep customers from walking in to your wait station because they
will walk any where they can and it gets to be rather annoying. With a seating capacity of 77 ppl I would really try to get
more bathroom space. I have seating for 99 and have 1 urinal and 3 toilets and really wish I had more. I don't have an idea
of how to fix it but you do not have a good way to put tables together for groups of more than 8.
I see you have a bunch of detail in the rest of the floor plan but there is none in the kitchen. So depending on what you want in there it might be too big or
too small. Do you have a place for a walk in cooler/freezer, work flow, prep area, dish line? Your general seating plan looks good. But by your wait station
you have a stair case going in to your booth area, I would either remove it or put come kind of block in to keep customers from walking in to your wait
station because they will walk any where they can and it gets to be rather annoying. With a seating capacity of 77 ppl I would really try to get more
bathroom space. I have seating for 99 and have 1 urinal and 3 toilets and really wish I had more. I don't have an idea of how to fix it but you do not have a
good way to put tables together for groups of more than 8.
I am basing the kitchen sq footage off of talking with other brewpub owners throughout the state. I've worked in a few
kitchens, but it was over 10 years ago. Needless to say, I don't remember much about kitchen layouts. Quite a few brewpub
owners have assured me that the size looks large enough to support the place, as it is actually larger than quite a few of the
brewpubs in the state. I have a couple of guys who have kitchen experience volunteer to design the initial kitchen layout
but generally, I anticipate having the chef (when hired) being a vital part of the entire kitchen process. The dish line is
currently planned for inlet near the bathrooms...outside of that, I don't have a real plan for how it will all flow. Any advice is
always appreciated.

The kitchen/bathroom areas are an addition to the current building. We will be digging a foundation for a full basement,
which we'll use for food storage, grain storage, etc.

We will have an upper level that will be mainly the bar/hangout area. This main level will be for eating with a more family
oriented, community driven feel. The upstairs will be the place where people go to have drinks, a few appetizers, etc. and
the bathrooms up there are quite a bit larger than the one hole bathrooms in the main level. I would love to make the
bathrooms larger, but with the ADA, space gets eaten very quickly.

The situation with being unable to support groups of 8 or more is a problem. I have tried what seems like hundreds of floor
plan iterations, trying to alleviate the problem but with really no answer. It looks like we'll have to split a group into 6's
when that situation happens.

Thanks for the thoughts. Any other thoughts, ideas, concerns, etc. would be appreciated.
I don't have anything to really contribute, other than that's a really nice layout! What will your menu be? I'd go with an rake out in the MT and just cart
the stuff out the back if possible.
Our menu will be based on American fare that will over good value while also throwing in something different from the
places around the area. I'd like to say it will be "upscale pub food" but the word upscale comes off wrong in my mind. We
plan on focusing on extremely good food at value focused prices. When you run a brewpub with amazing margins on beer,
it allows a little leeway on the pricing of the food. While we won't be pricing so low we are barely breaking even on the
food, we won't be offering expensive $10 burger meals either.

The grain out situation may come down to a bin in the basement where we then use a motorized fork cart to take it out
back to a truck. I guess we'll have tto find a farmer who has a lift on his truck since a hand/motor fork usually can't lift
something high enough to set it in a truck. This is still a concern.
Thanks for the good words.





http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?31285-Fruit-Fly-Control
Fruit Fly Control?
We're approaching fruit fly season and I'm wondering if anyone has tips for control. We've tried the mason jar full of cider
vinegar thing with little success.

Would love to hear if y'all have found anything that works well against these pesky insects.

Thanks!
Have growler filled with brett fermenting wort. Fruit flies and natts love it because brett smells like wild yeast fermenting
rotten fruit.
Secret Ingredient
Try a drop of ivory liquid soap in the mason jar w/ cider vinegar. It works!
It puts a sheen on the surface they think they can land and they fall right in.
Lot of breweries, wineries, and bars use DDVP (Dichlorvos) pest control strips. They basically emit an odorless, heavier than
air gas for about 4 months. Seeps into cracks and crevices, kills fruit flies and other bugs pretty darn well. Downsides are
that DDVP has been banned in the EU but not by the EPA here, though they've thought about it several times, so take that
for what you will. Maybe something best brought out when other methods have failed miserably.
Russell Everett
Co-Founder / Head Brewer
Bainbridge Island Brewing
Bainbridge Island, WA
Chrysanthemum extract
I was having this fruit fly problem in the brewery and a friend gave me some Chrysanthemum extract to spray around. It
killed all the fruit flies hanging around and kept them out for a few days as well. The product I had seemed pretty natural
and safe, maybe better than spraying poison around the brewery.
Not sure what's in these suckers, but wow.


Pax.
Liam McKenna
www.yellowbellybrewery.com
I've used the traps that Liam just posted. They definitely attract the fruit flies, but they don't eliminate the problem. You
have to eliminate where they are breeding. Even if you kill all the flies you see, they'll be back in a few days. Thoroughly
clean your drains and get some drain gel to pour in them overnight (or over a weekend). Do it weekly. Make sure any beer
spills or water puddles are consistently cleaned up.

You might not be able to prevent them entirely, but you can make the problem manageable.
Hutch Kugeman
Head Beer Guy
Crossroads Brewing
Athens, NY
Bleach, bleach, bleach...
Kevin Shertz
Chester River Brewing Company (in-planning, opening in 2014)
Chestertown, MD
+1...they are the best
Lot of breweries, wineries, and bars use DDVP (Dichlorvos) pest control strips...
We have tried EVERYTHING...and these are hands down the best. Try 'Hot Shot' brand...sold at every Home Depot on the
planet. Oh, and clean the crap out of everything every day. Drain flies are the worst!!
Larry Horwitz
Learn to identify the egg clusters. They look like tiny brown spots, often on shiny white surfaces, windows...

Each cluster contains thousands...tens of thousands of viable eggs. You will be amazed how many of these are around. They
need to be scrubbed off...I use hot water and floor juice, because I've ruined so many shirts using bleach.

If you can eliminate the eggs...or at least mostly eliminate the eggs, then once you get rid of your first round of flies, the
problem is mostly gone. I've found that simply vacuuming them out of the air with a dust collector works pretty well.

Also, it turns out that using a foaming acid surface cleaner seems to pretty much eliminate them. I'm not sure why,
but...whatever works!

Nat
I was having this fruit fly problem in the brewery and a friend gave me some Chrysanthemum extract to spray around. It killed all the fruit flies hanging
around and kept them out for a few days as well. The product I had seemed pretty natural and safe, maybe better than spraying poison around the
brewery.
Hi
Thanks for the post.
Does his Chrysanthemum extract have a trade name? I'd like to try it.

We use something called Inficin which is apparently a plug of spent grains mixed with a bio-cultue and an insecticide of
spme sorts. It keeps the Fruit flies in check but it also stinks strongly.

Cheers
Does his Chrysanthemum extract have a trade name? I'd like to try it.
Pyrethrin is the chemical. A lot of commercial pesticides use this with other chemicals. It is (pyrethrin) pretty foodsafe and
has low mammalian toxicity.

Pax.

Liam
I worked with flowers many years. This is correct. (Chrysanthemum) Very common in food preservation. Still, wash your
food. It tends to loose its effectiveness drastically after about 48 hours. I believe it breaks down into non hazardous
chemicals at that point. It is effective on most types of pests in plants and foods. Great stuff overall. Usually must be
directly applied.

The dioclorvos is believed to excrete fast out of the human body and supposedly cause no human harm if kept below
threshold limits and exposure time limits. I believe the excretion occurs over about 48hrs. Ban concers from the EU stem
from concers that dioclorvos can bind to DNA. I believe the EPA or whoever feels that it safe because it leaves the body
before it can bind to our DNA. You need to eat a lot of it, more than say 10grams, to approach a 50/50 shot of dying from it.
I think someone said, it works through the air. Very effective. It is recommended to use in well ventilated areas though.

I would use the pyrethrum to remove any "nests" or groups that you are aware of, but use DDVP to prevent any future
problems. If these are only seasonal issues, you should have no worries of chronic exposure. It's mainly a concern for
manufacturing and industrial applications.

Don't underestimate the ability for a pest problem to increase exponentially. It's always best to stay ahead of it. I am not an
EPA guy or nothing but I can read MSDS and have been down this road a few times.

Another common pesticide is nicotine, however I don't think it would be a good solution here. Also an organic (I believe)
option sometimes is neem oil. You can put some in drains and such. Good luck.
Faucet Inserts
I haven't seen this mentioned yet, but definitely get these: http://www.amazon.com/Kleen-Plug-Dra...er+faucet+caps


Put them in every night - keeps them out of one of the places they most often invade.
Noah A. Bolmer

Barley and Hops Tavern
Occidental, CA
www.barleynhops.com

Warped Brewing Company
Sebastopol, CA
yeah...those faucet brushes are awesome...esp if you are using the old snotty cross vent faucets
Larry Horwitz
the ONLY reason IMO to have bleach around all that SS
Clean, clean, clean (obvious stated- check)

still not working right? Tip from and old-timer bug guy: a dash of bleach in every drain (the idea is for the bleach to sit in
trap overnight...i was told this is where they throw their sex parties).

worked for me for years here in Western WA (never got the chance to try back in Missouri where the mosquito and fruit fly
are in a tie for being the next state bird), keep an eye on blowoff buckets too (treat blow-off water as needed (sani, acid,
bleach etc.) to make in-hospitable for horny fruit flies)

seems overly-simple right?
- Smart Workier, Not Harder and just say no to pesticides in brewery
Jeff Byrne

12 year pro craft brewer *NOW available for hire...
Auburn, Wa - for now
We have tried EVERYTHING...and these are hands down the best. Try 'Hot Shot' brand...sold at every Home Depot on the planet. Oh, and clean the crap
out of everything every day. Drain flies are the worst!!
How safe are the Hot Shot strips? I picked up some to use in our brewery and bar, but the owner vetoed them after reading
on the packaging that they are not for use in food service and not for use in a room occupied for more than 4 hours. I
assume that nobody has keeled over from using them in their breweries; I am just wondering what people's opinions are
regarding their safety in a food-service environment.
How safe are the Hot Shot strips?...
We use these in our non food/brewing areas. After fully reading the MSDS on the dichlorvos it was my decision, that with
our seasonal usage, we will not be getting much exposure of the actual chemical. We also are using these in well ventilated
areas. Furthermore, upon research, the chemical does not seem to have a direct known hazard to humans through acute
toxicity. I feel the manufacturers 4 hour limit is half the OSHA limit in order to cover them legally incase you open ten
packages in one room. The measurements you should be comcerened with are below. Realize that your patrons are not at
risk, but employees will have the greatest rate of exposure. The product works extremely well, and if you have concerns
about exposure I would recommend reading into it. As I said before, you'd have to actually consume a lot of the chemical
for a period of time to have a detrimental effect.
Personally I believe these to be perfectly safe if used as intended. Just a suggestion, maybe use the chemical at night when
less employees are present and remove it during the day.
Although we don't use them in the brewery directly, it is my opinion that our product (beer) is mainly contained in a vessel
at all times and therefore unable to come into contact with the dichlorvos anyways.

The OSHA Permissible Exposure Limit (PEL) 1.0 mg/m3
The NIOSH Recommended Exposure Limit (REL) 1.0 mg/m3
The ACGIH Threshold Limit Value (TLV) 0.1 mg/m3
The OSHA Immediately Dangerous to Life and Health (IDLH) 100mg/m3
LD50 is another measurement I feel is important.
Agreed. Does wonders for keeping the fruit flies down in your dirty keg pile if you store your dirty kegs indoors.
If you have a cat in the brewery do NOT use pyrethrum. It is extremely toxic to cats.
Battle Vs. War
Like most have already said, clean, clean, clean. In a perfect brewery, this would eliminate the problem, but in most every
other situation, something will always be missed. Without skipping over the obvious like refuse removal, bleach in drains,
and faucet plugs, there are additional tactics to employ in the war with fruit flies. Our brewery is very small having only
2100 square feet to deal with. Recently I spent a span of four days away from the brewery (wedding season), leaving it in
capable hands. Upon my return, I came upon the worst fruit fly infestation I have ever seen. More than likely, the trash was
not removed between shifts over the weekend, but I'm not sure. Also to compound the issue, a dry hopped FV had
overflowed leaving sticky beer/hop residue all over the place. The first step was to remove the breeding grounds. I then
began employing the passive homemade traps (soda bottle cut in half, top upside down with bait, and plastic cups with
cello wrap over the top and holes punched in that) but, this only caught about 30 each at that. The next, and best step I
employed, was to break out the shop vac. While the traps caught their fair share, it was no match for the army of flies just
sitting on and around the traps. If you let the swarm settle, it is very easy to capture massive amounts of them at a time
using the shop vac. The few remaining are easily removed using the same method, but it takes a little more work. Leaving
out a paper towel with a few drops of beer on it acts like chum, and much like blood in the water to sharks, the flies are
instantly attracted to it. At that point, the shop vac easily removes them from the situation. Again, I have to echo, that
proper cleaning practices, not leaving dirty kegs inside, and refuse removal are paramount in the war with fruit flies, but if
you find yourself needing to win a battle, break out the shop vac!
Aaren M. Simoncini
The Beer'd Brewing Co. LLC
22 Bayview Ave. Unit # 15
Stonington, CT. 06378
aarensimoncini@gmail.com
Are the products me ruined in this thread good for house flies as well?



















http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?23850-Brewpub-operations
Brewpub operations
EDIT: I decided to go with a 7bbl system later in this thread and have included some of my initial concepts for my layout.
The files are available for download in this thread. I edited to add this statement to help people searching or reading older
threads. The discussion on my start up plans continues on page 3. -Jon


First, I apologize if this is in the wrong spot.

I am looking for some feedback on the following operations concept/plan for a brewpub. I would much appreciate any help
or guidance you would provide. First, I want to acknowledge that it will be a hell of a lot of work, but since I don't mind
working 12-15 hours a day (not for someone else though), I will do whatever it takes to never work for someone else again.

The brewpub is to be located in upper mid-west/norther great plains town with a population of approximately 50k people
with another 20k within 30 miles. We are located within 1.5 hours from the Canadian border and seeing a lot of Canadian
traffic in our city almost every weekend. The town is currently experiencing exponential growth due to oilfield activity, as
such, we feel that if we are going to pull this off now is the time.

The downtown area in which it is to be located has plans to add several hundred apartments in a 4 block radius within the
next 10 years, with construction starting on phase 1 this year.

The building in question is located in the downtown portion of the city and has 3500 sq. feet on the main floor, none of the
walls on the main floor are load bearing, so we have a clean slate when we renovate the building. My business partner
owns the building and the apartments located above the space designated for the brewpub, so leasing is not an issue. We
also have access to the full 3500 sq. foot basement for whatever we need (storage of empty kegs, more fermentation
room).

We have decided to start on a Sabco system brewing two 10 gallon batches a day to fill our 8-12 30 gallon fermenters. I
know this is less than ideal, but you must remember the population size and also take in to account this is macro country.
However, several very small beer bars in the area that carry a wide selection of craft brews are doing well.

We plan on using a 15 day cycle for brewing our house ales, with more time in the fermenter if stock allows (or as dictated
by style/gravity/yeast) as we will be serving from kegs and not from the tanks. With this plan we are looking at roughly 135
to 210 barrels a year, not much compared to what most of you guys (and gals) are brewing.

We have no plans for a kitchen right away and are not required by law in our jurisdiction to do so. We plan to associate with
several restaurants in the downtown area to provide food for our patrons, if they want more than the typical bar snacks.
We plan to open around 4pm or 5pm everyday as would not see a lot of lunch traffic.

We also plan to leave room for some limited restaurant equipment (grill, cooler, freezer, prep and expo) to be added later
as we want to focus on our brewing and servicing our loans before risking food service. Since the oil activity has come this
way, finding people to work in kitchen positions is getting bad, even the local McDonalds is paying close to $15 an hour.

We plan on installing 21 taps in the brewpub and running our products in 5-8 taps at any given time, the rest would be
regional microbrews with one marco and a few national craft beers. I have an idea of the layout for the brewroom,
fermentation room, grain storage and my office which will also hold all of the IT equipment and yeast storage.

Our only barrier to entry is local ordinance preventing a brewery from operating in the downtown area (zoning) however
we feel this was intended for production size breweries, not brewpubs with our intended size. We do not feel this poses
any significant threat, but I thought it should be mentioned. So if you have any comments on handling city council on this
issue (awesome)...

So I am looking for feedback on an major design flaws in the concept/plan or anything you would like to share with me to
make it a little easier. Also, if you experienced people could give me an idea on size of the brewroom, fermentation room,
grain storage and walk-in cooler size for the amount of taps; I would appreciate that very much. Questions are much
appreciated as well as it stimulates the creative/problem solving process which seems to be a daily task in the industry.
(Thank you for taking the time to read all that.)

Thanks in advance for your words of wisdom and hopefully we will brew on!

Cheers! Jon
Try contacting the local economic development group in your town. My experience they have been awesome. Their job is
to bring new business in and are usually on good terms with city council and mayor offices.

I'm guessing ND somewhere? If so, lagering will never be an issue.
Yes in ND. It has been very mild here this winter (47f) for the high today.

Thanks for the advice about the economic development groups, I forgot about them.

Everything else look workable?
Little Deep Brewing Company
Minot, North Dakota
www.littledeepbrewing.com
Hi Jon,
Contrary to what all the girls say; size does matter.
Especially the size of your brewing equipment. I understand the financial differences between a Sabco nano and an 8-10 bbl
brewhouse. You could very well be setting up your operation for headaches and possible failure with the nano system. A
Brewhouse that small in that sort of population base will be drained quickly. Then you will be brewing ALL the time
(economies of scale). If you start with a bigger capacity, you can support the demand and grow into a strong and more
stable market position without having to shut down, re-equip, re-submit forms to the Feds and state, wait around for their
approval or changes all the while not producing any product.
Also, do not underestimate the demand for good craft beer. Those oilfields have been drawing in thousands of workers
from all over, as you well know. Workers who already have a taste for craft beers. I would be happy to speak with you more
about your project if you would like.
Prost!
Dave
Glacier Brewing Company
406-883-2595
glacierbrewing@bresnan.net
I agree with Dave, you want a larger system. 7bbl would probably be the thing, I wouldn't go under 5.

I brewed on a 1bbl brewhouse in the early days, I never want to go that small again if I can possibly avoid it. You'll be
working your butt off trying to keep up.
We are unsure if the building we have can support the weight of a 7bbl system. So 5bblI would be the next best bet, now to
figure out ho to get it in the building.

Anyone have experience with Specific Mechanical's skid mounted systems?
Hi again Jon,
I have worked on a 17bbl Specific Mech system but it was not skid mounted. My current 10bbl Bohemian Monobloc is skid
mounted. When I uninstalled it from its former home, I only had a double door to use to remove it, the boiler, and all ten
brewing tank from the building. I ended up taking everything off the skid with the help of a Bobcat tractor with forks
mounted to the bucket. Then the opposite to install it. Most skid mounted systems are designed with the thought that they
will be put into position via a crane and a hole in the roof. If the building doesn't support the equipment, find a different
building. As my father-in-law has pounded in my head, "Never fall in love with a piece of real estate!"
Prost!
Dave
Dave,

I really appreciate the help, one of the many reasons to love the craft brew industry. I should take a short trip out to
Montana and visit for the day...

I will check with my business partner (building guy) on thefloor capacity (i am pretty suresure it can hold a 5bbl) but we
really want to use this space as he already owns it.

Any idea how much a 5bbl system weighs fully loaded? I would use 5bbl tanks (any advice on unitanks would be
appreciated) so a guess (high side) would be great as well. That way I have an idea when I speak with our architect.

Thanks again guys!

I'm glad to see that you will go with a larger size brewhouse and capacity. We are in an area of only 90K permanent
residents and off season, my slowest beer moves 2 kegs a week. I have 10 products on in a brewpub, (restrained, by
comparison to lots of others) and my fastest two beers move 14 kegs a week, combined, in the slowest months.

The point I'm making is that your projections talk about growth and you need to plan for that capacity, now.

I would plan for 1500 bbl, minimum annual capacity. For the weight issue, if a plan engineer agrees that the floor won't
handle the weight, but the space is otherwise "perfect" for you, consider I beam elevated flooring for the brewhouse and
tanks. This will distribute the weight across more area and even give you the chance to add drains without digging trenches.

Good Luck and Go For It! There is still plenty of room in the pool!
I would also suggest that if you want to serve food some time in the future just do it when the doors open. I have seen
many bars that waited for a while to serve food after they opened and their customers just got used to them not serving
food. Then when they finally started serving food it took a long time to get people used to the concept of going there for
anything other than just drinks. Even if you open with a limited menu it will get people thinking of eating at your place.
I would also suggest that if you want to serve food some time in the future just do it when the doors open
Do you guys see anything wrong with not using a fryer in the brewpub? I don't really want to deal with one nor is my
partner (building owner) crazy about the idea either. I feel even though you can separate the kitchen from the rest of the
business, the odor of grease lingers and detracts from the craft beer experience.

Food wise, I was thinking along of the lines of sandwiches and wraps. See anything wrong with that plan?
If your goal is to serve sandwiches and wraps and avoid fried stuff that if fine. I know many places that go with a concept
like that. Fresh and healthy is in. The most important part is that if you want to have sandwiches and wraps you at least
start with something. You might start with 5 things and expand to 20-40 items, but it is just most important to the notion of
getting food and drinks at your place from day one.

On a side note I have 2 fryers in my pub and I put in the correct amount of exhaust and you would never know they are on. I
also know of some bars that use over sized bathroom fans to vent their kitchen and you walk in the door and with in
seconds you smell like you are wearing a fryer.
Found out a buddy was restaurant management for 4 years (score), he begged to help with the kitchen and said he would
work up a limited menu of 6 items all prepared on a griddle (hat trick?)

Do you guys have any numbers for calculating seating capacity? I have found anywhere from 12 to 27 sq ft/person. I know
that we for sure want at least one row (5-8) tall booths to close the table off from others. I know seating type has a lot to do
with seating capacity as well as exits and fire code.

I have 3500 total square feet to use in the whole building (no load bearing walls).

I am thinking a 140 to 160 sq. foot cooler, 500 to 800 sq feet for brewing, fermenting, milling, storage and my office. 300
square feet for bathrooms, 120 sq feet for behind the bar, 400 sq feet for the limited kitchen and 300 sq feet of safe
passage ways. I also have access to the 3500 sq foot basement for storage of whatever.

That leaves about 1300 sq feet for seating (with a 10% cushion), would I be crazy (of course I am, I want to start a brewery)
to have a seating capacity of 90?

How did you guys and gals figure daily sales of beer? I am assuming 3 pints per seat, per night (op hours 5pm to 1am = 8
hours). Does that seem right?

I am also assuming 30 food items per night, any guidance here? I am almost done writing my market research survey, so
hopefully I can get real numbers for my area soon, but I need something to plan with.

Thanks for all the help! Cheers!
Found out a buddy was restaurant management for 4 years (score), he begged to help with the kitchen and said he would work up a limited menu of 6
items all prepared on a griddle (hat trick?)
Are you going to go with serving tanks in the cooler or just kegs? The cooler size will depend on the amount of tanks/kegs
you have and the projected amount of sales/production you anticipate.

I think you can easily have a 5BBL brewery with maybe 4 fermenters in a space smaller than 300 sq ft. It isn't the most ideal
thing, but for limited space, it is definitely doable but that depends on the size of your office and the amount of overall
storage you're planning on maintaining.

I'd also say that 300 sq ft for bathrooms is incredibly high. If you end up having 2 men's and 2 women's bathrooms that
aren't huge or lavish (50sq ft each, one holes 7.5'x7.5') then you're looking at closer to 200 sq ft for bathrooms.

I would say that 400 sq ft for the kitchen and storage for what you're looking to do is definitely on the high side. Many full
on restaurants that maintain a good bar utilize a kitchen/receiving/storage of less than 550sq ft and those are places that
offer full menus and have 70%+ of their sales going to food. With a 6 item griddle menu, you wouldn't need near that
amount of space dedicated to the kitchen. If you could use the basement for kitchen storage/receiving you could probably
get away with a 100 sq ft kitchen if you end up with the menu you're proposing.

If you can also get the walk-in cooler to go into the basement rather than your main floor, you're also ahead of the game.
Are you going to go with serving tanks in the cooler or just kegs? The cooler size will depend on the amount of tanks/kegs you have and the projected
amount of sales/production you anticipate.
Thanks for the info, I thought my numbers were kind of high.

Any thoughts on some sample numbers for turns in 8 hours and estimate on food orders and beer orderd based on seating
capacity?
Dfoster is right, you numbers are a little high but not that far off. He is also right about trying to put as much in your
basement as possible. I have 3000 sq ft and 71 table seats, 19 bar stools, a 3 piece lounge area that takes at least 12-16
seats away. Another consideration for my space is that I serve 70% food 30% alcohol, so my kitchen/dish room is much
bigger than yours would need to be. I also utilize about 1500 sqft of basement for business operations and storage.
High in a good way, like that's too much space or bad, like how are you going to fit that many people/objects in that space?

Also, anyone have experience with the TTB in regards to have apartments on floors above a brewpub? I recall several
brewpubs on the east coast are like this...

Thanks again for all the wisdom!
I would say high is the way that you can cut down your spaces and allow for more space for customers.
For the load bearing problem your fermenters are the limiting factor not the brewing system, and if you have access to the
basement directly below you can easily add structure underneath.

For space planning develop a 5 year growth plan and make sure your space works for that, then pair it down to what you
can do for opening day.

If you outgrow your space after the first year or two the you have to start over again before your initial investment is
returned.
I worked up a CAD drawing of my proposed layout, anyone want to take a look at it and see if there are any major flaws?

I did not include electric/water/gas in the drawing, I will leave that to my architect.

No back bar?
Probably cant have ware washing next to cooking. Kitchen too small.
Too many "dead-ends"
Mill room needs to have make-up air and exhaust to exterior.
Stairway will need to be fire rated with doors and wall - cant be open from assembly occupancy to residential. Sprinklers?

I know you have "not to scale" on there, but you really need someone to lay it out to scale. I would get with your architect
sooner rather than later.
I just drew this up for some feed back and to give the final layout to the architect so he can do all the scale blueprints. By no
means is this the final layout.

I will move the milling room to the rear of the building make the kitchen a little larger although we are only going to have a
6 item menu without fryers. I will probably move the washing to share a wall with the storage area towards the brewroom.
The stairwell should already be fire proof as we are in an 100 year old brick building and the only door that leads into that
stairwell is outside the building. The building measures 50 feet wide by 150 feet long.

I will put up a revision tonight and will try to eliminate some dead ends.
Also you would be better to get square tables instead of round, you can put them together better to accommodate
different group sizes. It looks like the bathrooms are small and narrow, maybe. Having some scale would really be the best
way to make better decisions on sizing and placement. Also it looks like the dish line is right next to the cook line. Most food
inspectors would frown on that. You said before that you were going with a small menu, you might be able to get by
without a walk in cooler and instead get a few 2-4 door upright coolers. Also I always avoid chest freezers and instead go for
upright freezers. Deep freezers for home style use just do not do well if you open them up as much as you would in a
commercial setting. Also rotate your brewing area so that it access the alley for equipment and grain and food deliveries.
You will hate all deliveries coming through the front door or through a hallway. Also I know there was no detail in the
bathrooms, but with 100 seats you should have 2 stalls in the women's room and at least 1 stall and 1 urinal in the men's
room. Also boiler and chiller room might be rather big, or not, again dimensions would help. But since your chiller is close to
an external wall consider having a remote condenser, it will help keep heat out of your building. That is all I can think of for
now. If I think of anything else I will post it up.
I think I fixed most of the problems. The building we are in abuts the alleyway without a dock, so are stuck moving grain
through the front with a pallet jack.

I will be handing this over to my partner and he will give it to the architect to come up with our concept. The walk in cooler
is for beer only (although I put food on there). I will have an upright cooler for food. Any experience on using chest freezers
for storing hops?

I left room in the brew/fermentation room to add tanks. I have a note for the architect to figure something out with the
brew room to add/remove tanks and equipment easily. I would imagine the doors will be coming to the front of the room
towards the seating area.

The CAD program I am using doesn't seem to like me putting scale in. (Having problems with the grid (1 inch on paper = 10
feet, but not enough grid points).

Any feedback is much appreciated.


Cheers!
Any experience on using chest freezers for storing hops?
My current experience with storing hops in a chest freezer is that everyone but the brewers will use it as a table.
My only concern in your front door freight delivery. That is how we do it at my pub and in under 4 years it has done a good
job and destroying the floors. We are spending good money to build a rear delivery entrance so that I will not have to
reinstall floors in another year. Also trucks just love showing up at the worst times, like when you have a full bar. Just my
.02.
My only concern in your front door freight delivery.
Well, the tanks are going to have to go in the front door. There is a small parking area on the left side of our building. I
might be able to build a dock there, as my partner owns that property as well. But we can't put a door in the rear as it is
building wall and alleyway.

I might move the majority of my hop storage to the basement and keep on upright freezer on the main floor.
Looks good. I have some more comments too. Your tables are marked as 6x6, that is rather big for a square top table, 36x36
or 30x48 is more standard and fits 4. Also with your bathroom doors swinging in like they do they are not ADA compliant.
Look up the ADA manual it will give you all of the dimensions you need for that. Add another hand sink by your cooking line.
Most food inspectors gripe if someone has to go too far to wash hands, and your chef will thank you too.
Wow based on your drawing you have about 7100 sq ft total...mind if I ask what your lease is per sq ft and what NNN is?
Brian
Wy'East Brewing Co., LLC
A Magnificent Brewpub in Progress!
Wow based on your drawing you have about 7100 sq ft total...mind if I ask what your lease is per sq ft and what NNN is?
BTW we are looking at about 3500 sq ft for our place... Brian
BTW we are looking at about 3500 sq ft for our place...
That CAD drawing is 0.2:1 scale for our building that measures 50 ft by 150 ft. Our building is 3500 sq ft, that layout shows a
seating capacity of 165. The 6 ft sq tables are actually only 36" by 36'" with room included for chairs.

My business partner owns the building, but I think we have $2000 per month for lease to his real estate company.

Here is what I think will be the last revision:
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B2T...TmY4TFk0bWQyQQ

Thanks to everyone for the help!
our building that measures 50 ft by 150 ft. Our building is 3500 sq ft
Thats what I was getting at...on your drawing, and stated above, a 50x150' building is 7500 sq ft...unless I've had too many
beers tonight and my math is way off...do you mean 50x70' ?

When I originally posted, I had added the dimensions on your drawing to get the numbers...if that is your final layout for
TTB you may want to re look at it.

Brian
That's what I was getting at...on your drawing, and stated above, a 50x150' building is 7500 sq ft...unless I've had too many beers tonight and my math is
way off...do you mean 50x70'?
No, I had too many imperial stouts when I got the numbers from my business partner. I wrote down the total lot size
instead of the dimensions. I didn't even bother double checking because I am a busy guy (measure twice, cut once I know)
Thanks for bringing that to my attention. I will post up a new drawing this week as I just saw the building for the first time
this past weekend.

That could have been bad.
Cheers!
Do you have the new drawing yet?

Brian
Yes!

Not quite done with all the same measurements, but it is still 0.2:1.
Layout scale 2
So what happened to the kitchen?
We scrapped the kitchen from that building. However, we were dealt a blow on that building last week, so now we are
looking for another building.

I will post that drawing when I get the building situation under control.
For what it's worth, in your final revision you had moved your auger line away from your office, which is a good call. A
friend of mine had his auger line going directly over his office...every try and talk business with someone when that thing is
running?

Hope the building situation works out for you.
Hey,
I just came across this thread and was wondering how the plans worked out? I am planning a 90 set brewpub with a 7 BBL:
system, 5 FT's, 9 ST. I am very curious to see how you were successful!
Cheers
Still chasing the dream. Past two locations we have run into road blocks with structural issues. We also decided to change
lenders as the project has not been financed by a bank as our current bank won't tell us how much of a down payment they
require until we tell them how much we secured from investors. But we don't want to talk about investments until we
know what amount we are going to need.

We are now planning a 10bbl with 20bbl unitanks and serving tanks.

I have put the latest industry numbers from the BA into the plan and submitted it to the SBA for review prior to the new
search for lenders and investors.

It has been a wild ride and I am in too deep to bail now. I think my time hasn't come yet and rightfully so as my wife and I
are expecting #2 and need to buy a new house to have room for all of us. I certainly don't want to try to buy a house after
becoming newly self employed. So I feel like that situation is why our plans haven't come to fruition yet.

Everyone loves our plan. It just isn't time yet. Don't give up on your dream no matter what it is.
Don't give up on your dream no matter what it is.
I had plenty of dreams I gave up on, and I'm really glad I did, because I found better dreams. I think you should be open to
new, unexpected opportunities, otherwise you miss out on a lot in life.
I think there is wisdom in what both of you say. Follow your dream/passion to the best of your ability, but at some point life
tells you its not what is in store for you and there is something better that you need to recognize and pursue. Life is a
journey with endless possibilities, and its not often linear (at least in my case anyways). And that is OK!
Cheers
I had plenty of dreams I gave up on, and I'm really glad I did, because I found better dreams. I think you should be open to new, unexpected opportunities,
otherwise you miss out on a lot in life.
True. Should have said my dream is running my own business and for the last three years it has been a brewery. But
knowing when to cut your losses and fold is another big portion of living life.
Little Deep Brewing Company
Minot, North Dakota
www.littledeepbrewing.com





















http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?31890-Waste
Waste
What do you guys typically see percentage-wise in waste? Please specify your operation type (i.e. production brewery,
taproom, etc.) I was estimating 10%, but I've read other threads that say they underestimated what their waste would've
been.

Thanks - Trey Wilson
What kind of waste? You mean at the taps?
Yes, at the taps.
I'm planning to start with a 1.5bbl system (may bump up to 2bbl) for tap room sales only, and am assuming 15% for comp
pours, spillage and waste per bbl. That's assuming 1/4bbl kegs. I'd prefer using 1/2bbl kegs, but am concerned about the
weight/transfer of them.
Kevin Shertz
Chester River Brewing Company (in-planning, opening in 2014)
Chestertown, MD
Currently my losses are under 10%. Anywhere from 7-12 though depending on the beer. This is in a brewpub with 10 draft
lines and a short run (cold room is directly below the bar. So only 8-10 feet of beer line). I'm very happy with those
numbers, and casual observation of bartenders pouring beer tells me that we have very little foam waste, even when filling
growlers.

In a previous brewpub with 7 draft lines and a long run (130 ft with beer pumps), the draft lines were never balanced just
right and foaming was a problem. Our losses could run as high as 17% at the taps.
Hutch Kugeman
Head Beer Guy
Crossroads Brewing
Athens, NY
Blended Gas
I have a pub with 13 lines from about 12 feet beneath. We have had various foam issues and around 15% waste (not
including comps) in the past. Switching to blended gas has nearly eliminated foam waste altogether - we lose only in
(approved) comps, and line loss when changing to a different beer - which is frequently. Our loss has decreased by at least
5%.
Noah A. Bolmer - Barley and Hops Tavern - Occidental, CA
www.barleynhops.com Warped Brewing Company - Sebastopol, CA



http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?31825-Tap-room-employees
Tap room employees

I am trying to figure out how many employees I will need for our tempory tap room while we finish our full taproom. We
will have a 40 seat room that will expand to 60 seats when the weather is nice. We are planning on being open Th, Fr and
Sat for a total of about 20-25ish hours and are able to sell pints, growlers, swag and other offsale. We are also located close
to a college that has about 14k students and we are also located close to downtown. Since we are the only brewery in
town(which is about 180k with surrounding area) I know we will get our butts handed to us. I figure a minimum of 3 turns
but a half dozen or more is likely. My business partner is conviced that we can staff it with volunteers from friends and
family but I have worked in bars for years and I know we will be slammed. I am just trying to come up with a feasible
number. I also prefer the idea of paid employees because I can rely on them much more. What have been your
experiences?

Skl!
Are you doing table service or just order at the bar? We have a similar setup but only take orders at the bar, and we usually
have three bartenders and one barback collecting and washing glasses. On our busiest days we set up and staff a separate
cashier for merchandise and tour ticket sales.
Linus Hall
Yazoo Brewing
Nashville, TN
www.yazoobrew.com
Paid employees will always be preferable to volunteers -- volunteers can be flighty in regards to schedule, and quite frankly,
will make up for the fact they're not being paid by liberally helping themselves to both beer and merchandise.

As to the number, it depends in part on how your space is configured. Is merchandise going to be paid for at the bar or at a
dedicated register? How large is the bar area? There's a point at which having multiple people is helpful, but depending on
the space, you may find that people are continuously tripping over each other to get to the tap handles from various sides. I
personally think one person at the register and one person at the tap handles is fine, but even 2 working the taps helps a
lot. And, you definitely need at least 2 at any given time so that kegs can be switched out as needed.

As to frequency of turns... my experience working in a tasting room is that 1.5-2 hours per turn is what you can expect.

Cheers!
Kevin Shertz
Chester River Brewing Company (in-planning, opening in 2014)
Chestertown, MD
Thanks for the replies.

We are doing bar only service and the space is very open (it is out of shipping receiving area).

We figure since there is no other brewery in the area people will come in and taste, have a pint or two and then fill a
growler. I guess I would rather be prepared and not get caught with my pants down.

Skl!
Oh - one other thing - be sure to make sure your servers (volunteer or paid) are 100% in compliance with state laws
regarding serving alcohol.

I work at a brewery in DE right now as I'm setting up my own place, and was required to go through mandatory server
training to be able to do so. Here in MD, someone on-premises at all times has to go through a different mandatory training
program. Requirements vary from state to state...
Kevin Shertz
Relying on volunteers probably a bad idea. One trained person with bar service experience can do the work of three
confused, dysfunctional volunteers. And it'll show: in the form of long lines, dirty glassware everywhere, confused checks,
skipped tabs, disgruntled customers, etc.. Also, there is a legal limit to what and how much you can do with unpaid workers,
so check your state's regs. Helping out in a pinch? Ok. Long term? Who wants to work for free forever?

We try to always have at least two people in the brewery and taproom. Seats about 50 but we can have twice that if we're
slammed. Open seven days a week. One or two very competent bartenders handling the taps depending on busy/slow
times, and typically myself or someone else just being around in case kegs need changing, someone wants to talk to me
about something, a distant friend shows up unannounced, glasses need collecting and washing, it's busy and we need a
retail keg to go out, we're out of toilet paper, a faucet starts leaking or a draft line is misbehaving, there's some other kind
of emergency, etc

My opinion is that from a legal and, frankly, responsible employer perspective you don't want to find yourself with a lone
staff member, accidentally and seriously hurt from slipping or lifting a keg or something, in front of a full taproom.
Russell Everett
Co-Founder / Head Brewer
Bainbridge Island Brewing
Bainbridge Island, WA
Volunteers to come and sacrifice their weekend for the sake of pouring and serving beer? Pay peanuts, get monkeys.
Yeah this is what I figured. I would much rather have people that are paid simply because it creates a different relationship.
When someone is helping on their own free time it is easier to become disgruntled and apathetic. Our servers have to be
server trained which is a city offered course which we cover the cost of. I prefer to be in compliance with the law whenever
possible.

Thanks for the info! Have a good weekend and Skl!


http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?30331-Brew-Pub-Beer-Pricing
Brew Pub Beer Pricing
I'm curious as to what other brew pubs are charging for Macros compared to their own beer. Is it crazy to sell a 12 oz Macro
bottle for the same price as a pint of my own? The brew pub was built to sell my own beer, and I feel like a consumer
should pay a premium price if they choose to drink a bottle of light beer. Anyone with me this?
Nope, that's just common sense. I would actually suggest not carrying macros at all. Obviously it all comes down to your
personal business model, but I think that for the most part you would have to turn away several potential customers
(people who walk out because you don't have their brand) for each one you convert, before you don't break even on the
margins.
Brew a Cream Ale or Light Lager and ditch the macros altogether. Chester
I agree with Chester. Some folks carry macros in bottles for those who request them. I think that's a semi-fair trade-off
seeing as you do not need to block a tap handle.
I agree with Chester. Some folks carry macros in bottles for those who request them. I think that's a semi-fair trade-off seeing as you do not need to block
a tap handle.
I agree. Some people get dragged to brewpubs who wouldn't otherwise be there. So don't assume everyone who walks
through your door cares about your beer. I think you should have some options to cater to those people, and if that means
selling a bottle of Bud Light for $6, no big deal.
I agree. Some people get dragged to brewpubs who wouldn't otherwise be there. So don't assume everyone who walks through your door cares about
your beer. I think you should have some options to cater to those people, and if that means selling a bottle of Bud Light for $6, no big deal.
Would you rather piss off that one customer by selling them a $6 Bud, or piss them off by offering your
Blonde/Cream/Pilsner? Use it as a way to teach the customer about your beer! Brewpubs should NEVER carry a Macro!
Cheers!

Jeff
Carbondale Beer Works
We sell a few domestic lager bottles
We carry Bud, Miller Lite, Mich Ultra, a cider and NA brand. Now we do not advertise these in house, not behind the bar or
in our menus. Our goal like many out there is to sell our house made beer, but there are people who are so stubborn that if
the difference is serving them a free glass of water or selling them a bottle then its not a hard business decision to make.
We charge either the same price or a quarter more than our house beers. We don't sell a lot of them. To give you a good
example we have a plumbing company that books a holiday party with us every December. We order extra cases of Miller
Lite just for them, we accommodate them because their parties generate $2k in revenue. They don't have to have their
parties with us but they keep coming back because they enjoy the food, atmosphere and the Miller Lite. Its also good
advertising in the sense that other customers who are there see us catering to a large group and perhaps they'll think about
booking events with us as well.We value all customers who wish to spend their hard earned money with us, even if they
don't partake in 100% of what our facility has to offer.

Saying that a brewpub should never offer domestics is closed minded and might reduce your revenue, what's next telling
people who don't drink alcohol that they have to eat somewhere else?
Cheers,
Mike Roy
Brewer
Franklins Restaurant, Brewery & General Store
Hyattsville,MD

Franklinsbrewery.com
@franklinsbrwry
facebook.com/franklinsbrewery
Franklinsbrewery.blogspot.com
Would you rather piss off that one customer by selling them a $6 Bud, or piss them off by offering your Blonde/Cream/Pilsner? Use it as a way to teach the
customer about your beer! Brewpubs should NEVER carry a Macro!
Sorry Jeff, I can't agree. It's never about just one customer. It's about groups.

Within any group, there is always one person with veto power. The classic (clich) scenario is a couple where the lady
doesn't like the menu of a restaurant. Well, you aren't going to take her there, are you? That's veto power.

If there are competitors serving craft and macros, plus have a similar menu, then the veto will make the decision to go to
your competitor. If they're thinking of your brewpub, then they're thinking of food, too. Food is the much tougher dollar, of
course.

We go through 9 kegs a week of our flagship pilsner and a weekly total of 20bbl of our brands. PLUS 6 cases each of CL, BL
and Corona. Especially on sports days, there are tables with 1 BL and 2 pitchers of my beer. Money that would walk up the
street without that one beer. We're not big enough that we can ignore that choice.

So, we have a teachable moment available. Why not serve the mass lager and train the servers to take a sample of
something better for them? The sample is served with a smile and, "Our Brewmaster would also like you to have a sample
of our Pilsner to try." I observe that 1/3 of the time, their next beer or their next visit, they'll have my beer in their gl ass,
along with their friends. Brewfun.
The sample is served with a smile and, "Our Brewmaster would also like you to have a sample of our Pilsner to try."
This. Because part of our job/profession/duty is educating.
This. Because part of our job/profession/duty is educating.
Only if they want to be educated. I find it extremely annoying when someone tries to "teach" me something I have no
desire to learn.

I'm obviously a "craft beer" guy, but there is a certain brewpub where I'll order a Corona, because their beer is so bad. I
really don't want to be "educated" in that situation. So if you want to teach people, do it an as pleasantly and non-
confrontationally as possible.
I think that the example above is unobtrusive and politically correct.
Don't get me wrong, I thought Brewfun's example was a great way to handle that situation. I've also run into a lot of
unreasonably militant snobs, and not just in the beer world.

I remember working at a bike shop in college. I went to another shop in town to look around. I chatted with the owner, said
I worked at a shop. He asked what brands we carried, so I told him. He replied "Oh, we don't sell that crap here. We sell
good bikes." The shop went under in about 6 months.

My point was: if you want to stay in business, you probably shouldn't act like that owner. If you want to "educate" people,
take care not to sound condescending.
I guess our business model is completely different. We are more of a Tap Room with food than a brewpub that has 70% of
sales as food. We do about 25% food sales (15% required by law for Brewpub in CO) and the rest is our beer (45%), Liquor
(10%), Wine (5%), Guest Craft Beer (15%). We are really tiny in a small mountain town.

I may be limiting my revenue possibilities by not offering Macros, but if I can sell 1 of my beers vs. 3 Macros, I am still going
to come out ahead.

You can't please everyone all the time. If you try, you will go crazy or broke or both. Keep your product quality up and keep
your target customers happy you may sway that BL drinker to try one. If he likes it, great! If not, he may still come back with
his friends because they like it.
Only if they want to be educated. I find it extremely annoying when someone tries to "teach" me something I have no desire to learn.

I'm obviously a "craft beer" guy, but there is a certain brewpub where I'll order a Corona, because their beer is so bad. I really don't want to be "educated"
in that situation. So if you want to teach people, do it an as pleasantly and non-confrontationally as possible.
Exactly. 100% agree.

That's what we try to navigate. We don't want to belittle or make customers feel unwelcome. As for crap, well it's my job to
make beer that my servers are proud of serving.
Sorry Jeff, I can't agree. It's never about just one customer. It's about groups...
This is something I've come to accept. I'm in the midst of getting my business plan together and my partner (front of
house/food/bar manager) insists on having BMC on hand. I argued this for a while but he has brought up exactly the points
you make. The 1, 2, 3, 4, etc customers who DON'T come because their 1 friend wants his/her Bud Light, that's revenue
that's just silly to miss out on for being stubborn.
I have heard multiple brewpub owners make the same argument. I know that the place we are opening will serve BMC on
draft without advertising it in any way. We want to get everyone's business, not just a portion.
Well, good luck to y'all. I know the one Brewpub around here that served BMC along side of their beers just went under,
primarily because they sold more BMC than their beer on site, and it wasn't that they made bad beer. Their demographic
would never switch.

Hopefully in your area you know who your target is. If you feel that you have enough BMC drinkers that you absolutely have
to have it on tap, and won't get them to try your lightest beer (Blonde, Cream, whatever) which you will also make the
highest margin on, then you too may be in the wrong place.

Do your market research and run your numbers with and without macros. I'll bet you come out ahead in the long run
without them.
Jeff
Carbondale Beer Works
Well, good luck to y'all. I know the one Brewpub around here that served BMC along side of their beers just went under, primarily because they sold more
BMC than their beer on site, and it wasn't that they made bad beer. Their demographic would never switch
I think our vision is to start with them, and I mean very limited (maybe just 2 or 3 BMC beers). Then, after we're established
in the community, pull them entirely.
Our model is using Bud Light in a kegerator, unmarked, unlabeled, and not shown on a menu. If someone asks for it, we
plan to sell it in unmarked glasses along with a taster of our lightest beer. The BL will be priced higher than our lightest
beer.


















http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?31262-Taproom-Growler-fill-station-daily-sales-projections
Taproom/Growler fill station - daily sales projections
I am crunching some pro forma numbers on a taproom/growler fill-station concept. It would be about 2,000 sq-feet with a
bar and communal seating area for tasting flights/pints, a growler fill station, and a modest selection of bottles in wall
coolers. So probably expecting occupancy of around 50-75 people with hours something like noon-10pm 7 days/week. I live
in a mid-size college city with 200,000+ people that does not have anything like this so the limiting factor is probably the
quality of the customer experience. Not planning on having kitchen, at least not initially.

Could anyone be so kind to share some numbers on things like pints/growlers sold per day? I was thinking 200 pints/day on
average.

Also trying to determine the average margin on a keg purchased wholesale from a distributor (e.g., wholesale cost of a
particular beer and what that same keg may yield in revenues)? While each beer would have a different price, I am looking
for an average price that may represent the weighted average of what is consumed.

For example, would $70/sixel for a highly rated IPA, with revenue yield of $247 ($6/pint) be accurate?

Thanks in advance. -Mark.
For example, would $70/sixel for a highly rated IPA, with revenue yield of $247 ($6/pint) be accurate?...

Only in a theoretical world where you never lose beer in any of a million possible ways--foam poured down the drain,
tasters given out, line loss even with FOB, line loss during line cleaning or keg change, cloudy pint at the beginning or end of
each keg...a 5.16 gallon keg contains a theoretical 41 pints but my guess is you'd be lucky to get 35 out of it.

35*6 = $210. And even this is aspirational.

Or, another way of looking at it, to yield $247 you'd need to charge $7.05714 per pint, IMO.

(Others may disagree; that's a 15% loss rate...but it's my experience, but I had pretty long draw and poorly "tuned" draft
system. But even with 5% loss, you'd only get 39 pints or, at $6 each, $234.)

PS, the operation you envision is very similar to Top Hops in the Lower East Side of Manhattan. They appeared to be kicking
ass during my two visits last fall.
Couple of suggestions...

Don't buy 1/6 gal kegs if you can avoid it. Price per ounce is not the bonus of this keg size, but rather the room it saves in
smaller coolers/kegerators. This means, over-dimensionalize your walk-in if possible and buy 15.5s.

Instead of selling $6 pint, you could also sell smaller glassware at a the same or lower price (12oz for $5 or 14oz for $6). Or
conversely, you could sell larger glasses at a much higher price (20-24 oz for $7.50).

In the end, it depends a bit on your local market and what a pint sells for. Will you even be able to garner $6 with the
college crowd...? Is that your target audience? Lots of variables.


http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?30826-Taproom-pay-as-you-go-vs-tabs
Taproom pay as you go vs tabs
There was plenty of talk about POS systems that people use, but I was wondering what existing taproom owners opinions
are for pay as you go vs allowing people to start tabs.

We will have the capability to start tabs, but think it could be easier just to have everyone pay at the bar as they go.
Thoughts? Anyone try both?
Having to pay for each sample/pint every time could be off-putting to some if they're expecting more of a "bar" experience.

I guess it all depends on what you're aiming for with your company vibe/culture.

Are you keeping "bar" hours (open for the entire day and possibly late into the evening) or "tap room/tasting room" hours
(4-5 hours for several days of the week)?
We do both. Most people use credit cards or debit cards and it's a hassle to run it every beer so they want to run a tab. If
you do run tabs I suggest that you insist on getting a credit card and preauthorize it. We went on the honor system for a
while but when we started getting real busy the walkouts started to run into the hundreds of dollars worth of tabs, we had
$285 in one night and that was the last straw. You may say well then it's the bar staff's responsibility to keep track or they
can pull it from the tip pool, but that is illegal so I put the kabosh on the "honor" system. I even got some flack on some
reviews of the place because the bar staff will not start you a tab if you don't provide a card. The only exceptions are people
personally known but the staff takes care to follow just one or two tabs of those, not a bar full. Just my experience, YMMV.
Luch Scremin
Engine 15 Brewing Co.
luch at engine15 dot com
In my experience people are more likely to spend more with an open tab compared to pay as you go.
In my experience people are more likely to spend more with an open tab compared to pay as you go.
We hold the card for people we don't know and all students that come in (2 colleges in town). Works fine and no-one has
ever complained about leaving their card. We just use binder clips to hold them on a string by the register.
Bill Hamilton
The Brewer/Co-Owner
Blue Lab Brewing Co.
Lexington VA
PCI compliance
It is against the law to hang onto someone's card for a tab, as far as I know. You should talk to your credit card processor to
make sure. If someone's card is stolen from your place you could be criminally liable for the charges.

As far as tabs - people do tend to spend more than if you have them pay as they go.
Linus Hall
Yazoo Brewing
Nashville, TN
www.yazoobrew.com
As far as tabs - people do tend to spend more than if you have them pay as they go.
I would love to read a study, I can see it both ways for different reasons but generally agree.

So it does seem like people are doing a mix, I would think holding their card would be risky if it got taken, but at the same
time most of the bars around here hold them and it seems no different than the liability of giving it to a server at the end of
the night where they could drop it.
Depends on your establishment I guess. If you're a four seat counter, you should be able to handle that in your head. If
you're a 100 seat taproom with multiple floors, it can get busy... Generally though if it's someone we know, or it isn't busy
and they're sitting at the bar, then we'll just open a tab as normal. Otherwise we typically say something like "So would you
like to pay as you go, or start a tab with a card?" We do occasionally get confused looks, and every once in a great while we
get someone who gets indignant (in their best Thurston Howell III voice).

But if it gets hectic, having cards holding down tabs really helps. And with our POS you can swipe the card to open a tab, so
you get their name to just pop right up on the new tab, versus an awkward shouted "What name???" conversation.

As for holding cards, I wonder if it varies state by state, and there's always a gulf between 'best practices' and 'the law'.
Everyone does it around here, and there's usually a little card-holder box next to the POS or in a drawer, somewhere under
control of staff at all times. We have someone leave a card maybe once every month or so. Not a problem, just pop it in the
safe and wait for them to come get it.

Pre-authorisation is another matter. I could see it being a problem for some breweries, but we don't really bother (other
than swiping to open the tab, which shows it's at least functioning). The taproom's unofficial slogan is "Ain't nobody got
time for that".
Russell Everett
Co-Founder / Head Brewer
Bainbridge Island Brewing
Bainbridge Island, WA
Pay as you go.
Cash only.
Works quite well.
Easy, yes. But it involves a lot of time spent making change, and dealing with the fact that people don't carry as much cash
around as they used to. You'd need an ATM nearby, and that's just annoying. My view is why make it harder for people to
give you money any way they want to?

But FWIW we typically run 66%-75% credit card sales vs cash each day. Even if you don't want to bother with a POS system,
you could get an iPad based one like SquareUp. Many if not most of the nanos (and the food trucks) in Seattle are using it.
Russell Everett
Even if you don't want to bother with a POS system, you could get an iPad based one like SquareUp. Many if not most of the nanos (and the food trucks) in
Seattle are using it.

Squareup's "all you can eat" package is a pretty good deal if you're high volume. IIRC it's like a flat $300/month. The per-
swipe percentage is pretty high on the "normal" plan.
I do not know. Even with credit card do not you have to close your register at the end of the day, enter the sales to the
accounting software and make deposit to the bank?
Run the report for the year and check how much money it cost you to accept credit cards? How many days the CC company
hold your many before transfer to your account?

I am not trying to tell you what will work for you. Our customers do not complain that we do not take CC.
Cash only
Our taproom is cash only. We own the ATM and charge a couple bucks for a transaction, which is a HUGE annual swing vs.
paying a swipe percentage.

As far as tabs vs. pay-as-you-go, we usually collect payment at time of service. We find that people tend to tip more when
they are charged per drink instead of a tab. Four bucks a pint makes an easy dollar tip (25%!!) whereas many people will
only leave a buck or two on twenty. If someone specifically wants to start a tab, we let them with no argument and a
friendly request that they remember to pay.

Cheers,
Mike Elliott
Head Brewer
Philipsburg Brewing Co.
I do not know. Even with credit card do not you have to close your register at the end of the day, enter the sales to the accounting software and make
deposit to the bank?
Run the report for the year and check how much money it cost you to accept credit cards? How many days the CC company hold your many before transfer
to your account?

I am not trying to tell you what will work for you. Our customers do not complain that we do not take CC.
You don't do anything like that with Square. Every day it automatically deposits the previous day's sales in your bank
account.
Wow, there is lots of great information in here.

Those of you who do only cash. How do you track what sells? Do you still have a POS system or is it simply by counting the
register and seeing which kegs you're out of?
I can tell you that we have a low volume tasting room (this is on purpose as we strive not to compete with the bars and
restaurants that sell our beers every day).
And that we tried to do the cash register on the cheap. And about 9 months in we were done with a cheap cash register and
invested in a nice POS system. Lots of hand wringing, lots of asking other places in town what worked for them.
Wow, we were really glad we upgraded and felt stupid that we did not do a nice POS from the start. It handles tabs better,
we did not have to buy a separate card reader, and it keeps totals better. Basically, it does everything better. It makes life
so much easier for the staff.
Thus, I advise you ask around, get local references but buy a $5,000 to $10,000 POS system. It really is worth it.
Jeff Schrag
Mother's Brewing Co.
Springfield, Missouri
Wow, there is lots of great information in here.

Those of you who do only cash. How do you track what sells? Do you still have a POS system or is it simply by counting the register and seeing which kegs
you're out of?
We use a $300 Samsung tablet (that also runs our music) with the Registroid app. Tracks as many items and categories as
you can think of (eg club members vs full-price pints, hefe vs ipa, kegs to accounts, everything.) Daily reports and real-time
tracking of sales from a remote phone. Also supports card readers if you want. Killer system and easy to use and maintain.

Cheers,
Mike Elliott
Head Brewer
Philipsburg Brewing Co.
Montana


















http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?27389-Calcium-Buildup-in-HLT
Calcium Buildup in HLT
Our water is insanely hard. Our calcium level is 97ppm and our bicarbonates are 456ppm. In order to drop the ph, we
acidify the water in the HLT the night before with phosphoric acid while it's heating and that drops the ph to manageable
levels. The problem is that it leaves a thick white shell of calcium around the whole interior of the tank. I've looked
everywhere and I can't find an easy way to get rid of it. I thought about using Lactic acid instead to create less precipitates
but I've also read that it could add flavors to the beer that phosphoric acid doesn't. Is there any easy way to get rid of this
calcium shell or even prevent it from happening?

Cheers, Jared Kueker
Kaskaskia Brewing Company
Have you tryed to boil the water in your kettle and whirlpool it the day before you brew? I do it with the spring water I use
for one of my beers. It helps get the bicarbonate out of solution. Then I cip the kettle with a nitro/phosphoric acid blend to
get any calcium build up off the wall, then i add lactic acid to the water to bring down the ph.
Normally I recirculate the HLT while it's heating but I can give it a whirl in the kettle. I've also thought about switching to
Lactic acid so the calcium didn't drop out so I might give it a shot too. Thanks for the response.

Cheers, Jared Kueker
We have a 1000 gal. dairy tank for our HLT, and we had over 1/2 inch of build-up. I CIP'ed about 40 gallons of water with a
heavy dose of Ultra-Niter, then let it soak over night, then get in with a drywall knife to scrape of the build-up.
Use about 1 gallon of ultra niter, if I remember correctly.
But the overnight soak seemed to do the trick. Sorry I didn't check the ph.

Hope that helps.
Normally I recirculate the HLT while it's heating but I can give it a whirl in the kettle. I've also thought about switching to Lactic acid so the calcium didn't
drop out so I might give it a shot too. Thanks for the response.

Only hearsay, but have you heard of a threat of lactic maintaining a sour taste over a certain dosing threshold? Will a
direction substitution of the same volume leave you with overly sour brewing water?

Just something someone said to me, no practical application to back this up.
that depends on the buffering capacity of the water.
The trouble is that calcium phosphate is almost totally insoluble so you will end up with sludge / scale almost whatever you
do. However, we used to treat water with HsSO4 to achieve a pH of 7 and then trickle it (cold) down a degassing tower. This
seemed to precipitate the sulphate out faster to get a slightly softer sludge which could be removed periodically. Perhaps
blowing purified air through the treated water would work almost as well. Unfortunately I am not aware of anything that
really shifts CaPO3 - EDTA maybe? Or perhaps try suspending some removable rough stainless plates in the tank and hope
that most settles on these and can be bashed off periodically.

But unless it is causing a big problem with capacity or downstream, I wouldn't worry too much. Dick Murton
If the buildup is real thick, try using a rubber mallet to crack it. But don't pound on it hard enough to dent the stainless.
Once you get some bare metal with some edges, I've found a 3000-3500 psi presssure washer works wonders. Try to get
under it by working around the edges. Make sure to wear full eye protection as scale will be flying everywhere.
We have a similar problem, due to similar, if not worse, water. We periodically--about every three months--clean our 1,500
g HL system. We begin by manually shoveling out the calcite from the bottom of the vessels (usually a couple of 5 g buckets
full--we're paving our parking area with it). If wall deposits are too thick, I then climb in and pressure-wash the walls (my
FAVORITE job!). We finish with a wash of sulfomic acid (Wesmar DSR) solution @ ~140 deg. I don't know the exact
concentration, but a couple of lbs at a time, until the solution actively and rapidly dissolves calcite--test with residue from
step 1. We recirculate and wash with the acid solution for about an hour, then rinse... rinse... rinse. The sulfomic acid has a
distinctly soapy smell, so it's pretty easy to tell when you've rinsed enough. This process takes between 4 and 6 hours, and
uses LOTS of H2O.

And guess what we're doing tomorrow?

PS: I installed a control system to keep our HL temp at or below 195 F. Before, we were boiling the HL, and the calcite
accumulation was ridiculous. Now, it's bad, but within limits.

If you really have a problem with carbonate hardness, look into a whole-plant RO system. Not cheap, but it will give you,
essentially, distilled H2O (Portland water). If you want hard (Burton) water for brewing, add your own chems (this is what
most of the big boys do)!

And remember--it's the permanent hardness that contributes to good Burton water, not the carbonate hardness.
Carbonates just end up depositing in your HL system.

I dream about things like this...

Timm.
We have a 1000 gal. dairy tank for our HLT, and we had over 1/2 inch of build-up
I have to agree. I run all of the Cleaning/Sanitation for a production brewery. We use Ultra Niter (a mixture of
nitric/phosphoric acid). When I started with the company all of the fermenters had calcium buildup. After a lot of CIP'ing for
extended periods between 140*-155* it removed all of the calcium. This mixture also will re-passivate the stainless. The
temperatures stated are where acids are most effective. We recieved our Ulta Niter from Birko.

Acids are what remove calcium build up. Any type of caustic or caustic soda will set the calcium and make it harder to
remove.

Hope this helps a little bit more!
We have a hot liquor system re-circulating through a heat exchange, heated by our boiler. Our water isn't too hard but we
eventually get scale build up. In the past we have mostly emptied the tank (a couple hundred litres left) then added 10L
nitric acid. We re-circulated back through the sprayball to clean the tank and more importantly, the heat exchange.

A water softener could help but teh ion exchange type might add too much chloride to your water, causing corrosion issues.

We've had leaks all through our HLT from our naturally high chloride levels. We've since let the scale grow over the leaking
sections and it works really well to stop the leaks. We no longer acid clean the tank but just do the piping and heat
exchange instead. We do this every 3 months.

I guess what I'm saying is...
1) The scale isn't too bad if it's only on tank walls but it will greatly affect the efficiency of heating elements and exchanges.
2) I think it's better to empty and de-scale occasionally rather than constantly add acid.
3) Watch for leaks when you remove the scale, its about all that holds our packaging plants HLT together right now!
Ash Hazell
BarrowBoysBrewing.com.au
Jared, you would be better off heating the water first and precipitating a portion of the calcium carbonate before
acidification. The heating is going to partially reduce alkalinity and reduce the acid demand of the water. And since a
portion of the calcium is preferentially bound with carbonate, it won't be precipitating as calcium phosphate. Calcium
carbonate scale is much softer than calcium phosphate scale. Switching the order of acidification and heating is a win-win if
your brewery operations can allow that.

Hazell, if this is a typical cationic exchange softener, there is no increase in chloride in the product water. The chloride is
discharged as a wastewater following the brine regeneration of the resin. The chloride concentration of the product
(softened) water should be the same as the incoming water.
WaterEng
Engineering Consultant















http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?29520-Cip
Cip
Knowing the extreme importance of proper cleaing....is there a reliable alternative to commercially bought CIP system?

Thoughts, Opinions, Experiences? Thanks Bgruis
Build your own
But then, who can do that? Properly?
A manufactured CIP system can/should be all set to cover times, temperatures and flows needed for effective cleaning. You
can certainly make your own system, but I'm sure it would be just like the commercial ones available - or at least it should
be. Depending on how crafty you are, and the amount of time you have available, you can save a lot of money.

My two cents,
Joe Walters
Liberty Street Brewing Company
Thank you Joe, I appreciate your input.
Personally I've never understood why anyone would invest in a cip system. Whats wrong with a pump and some hoses?
Hmm

Not to dampen your enthusiasm about wanting to find a cheaper alternative to commercial suppliers, but..

Firstly, and I realise I am opening myself to severe criticism here for making assumptions, some of which might be
considered a bit negative, but if you are even asking the question, then I suspect that you do do not have the knowledge /
experience to design, get built to that design, and then commission a suitable set. There, I admit, I said it.

Reason?

I have spent a lot of time doing basic design work for CIP sets, single use, recovery systems, single and multichannel, from
brewhouse through to pub cellar, and the associated programmes for these sets, for a number of different breweries, and
this was my job - full time paid work, not something to be tacked on at the end of a day running around brewing,
troubleshooting etc. And invariably, these designs get changed for the better by the engineering consultancies who have
designed and built many more than I have - and have the range of engineering skills that I don't claim to possess.

I don't specify pump and pump sizes / outputs, or valves, capital and revenue cost efficient heat exchangers, though I am
able to sense check stuff, and have been known to correct or change things for something better in the review stage.

These guys know what flow rates, pressure etc you need, what sprayball size matches what tank, what CIP materials can be
used, and how to save thermal and electrical energy, plus water, effluent etc.

So yes, it does cost more than you think you will spend by doing it yourself, but if you costed out fairly the hours and
aggravation of doing it yourself, and then add on installation costs I suspect that for a given product the cost would not vary
too much.

However, I do agree there are suppliers and suppliers, and unless you have a pretty good idea of exactly what you are
looking for in design terms at least, then you can't hope to guarantee selection of a good system / good supplier.

I suggest you visit a few places as near to you as possible, of similar size and have a good look and chat with people to find
out pros and cons of what they have had installed / installed themselves. There is nothing like going somewhere and seeing
the results of an installation, and making your own assessment as well as accepting comments from suppliers and users.
You can find out how rigid a supplier is in their kit - i.e. do they taylor it exactly to current proactices and have they allowed
for at least a degree of future proofing.

Good luck

Cheers - Dick Murton
CIP Systems
CIP Systems like anything else need to be designed with the customers needs in mind and one of those needs is the budget available.

We have built and installed some pretty big and automated CIP systems for major beverage plants which cost more than the total
equipment budget for micro breweries and at the other end we have helped customers set up systems with used tanks and manual
controls.

The key to a good system is understanding what the customer needs.

I dont have time right now but I will post a CIP primer, similar to the one I did on pumps, later tonight.
Don, Tony and Tracey
CPE Systems Inc.
800-668-2268
CPEsystems.com
Thinkpumps.com
sales@cpesystems.com
Don

As an aside, thanks for the details of the pumps etc. I have now got permission from the suppliers to use the drawings for
my training notes if I wish. Look forward to seeing your notes on CIP systems

Cheers Dick
Knowing the extreme importance of proper cleaing....is there a reliable alternative to commercially bought CIP system? Thoughts, Opinions, Experiences?
To echo Dick, pump and line design/sizing, appropriate sprayball/jet position and design, effluent and other environmental
considerations of adequate and well designed CIP are perhaps left to the professionals (engineers) with input from
knowledgable users, however...

Not knowing the size of your tanks/system, it is difficult to envision what a cost effective, appropriate system would be for
your circumstance. As Don mentions
CIP Systems like anything else need to be designed with the customers needs in mind and one of those needs is the budget available.
It is often a pump, a well designed tank, a few valves, a few hoses, the appropriate strength/temperature/chemical/time,
and a resultant clean vessel.

Pax. Liam MckKenna
http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?27187-profitability-of-food-at-brewpub
Profitability of food at brewpub
Hello all,

We are a packaging brewery (over 90% of our beer is sold to wholesalers or self-distributed to retailers) that has a small
deli-style pub at our brewery. Our sandwiches sell for between $6.50 and $9.00. They are generally popular with locals and
toursits alike.

I was recently going over the numbers for the year thru August. The bar operation (beer, wine, cider, pop and merchandise)
showed a profit of $30k through august (hooray). However, the food side showed a loss of almost $10k. The food costs
were 48% of food sales and labor in the kitchen 34.5%of food sales. It seems almost impossible for the food to make money
when food and labor costs eat up (no pun intended) 82.5% of the food sales.

Any thoughts on what food costs should be?

Anyone else out there run their food at a break even or loss to draw people to the brewery?

We are in a small town with long shoulder seasons. We draw a good local crowd but cannot realistically expect to somehow
draw a lot more locals and "make it up on volume".

I am more of a brewery guy than a restaurant guy, so any feed back is appreciated

sam
The labor cost sounds right, but your food cost needs to be in the 28 to 33 range. This is a standard range restaurants shoot
for. You need to review the menu items and cost the out individually to really see where your money is going. If your nine
dollar sandwich costs more than three to make, you need to up the price (unfortunately) or change the ingredients enough
to bring th cost down. I was in the food service business for twenty plus years before starting our brewery this year, and this
principle helps us cost out our pizzas and salads.
Hope this helps,
David
You also need to work a few days in the kitchen to see if the crew is chewing on "snacks" during their shifts. The guys
making themselves club sammiches with a pound of bacon will kill you every time. Also,watch the prep section of the
kitchen - if tons of veggies and other food waste could be turned into chicken stock or tomorrow's soup, you're losing
money.

I also used to find it useful to work a day in the dish pit. Wanna know if you're wasting food with portions too large or just
not good in the first place? Work the pit and see how much food is being thrown out rather than eaten. Every parsley sprig,
kale leaf, or leftover french fry is money out of your pocket.
Food and labor costs together should be 55 to 60% of total sales for a restaurant. If labor is high then food cost should be
lower and vice versa. I would look at cost of each menu item as noted above and make sure you have good pricing on each
one.

More importantly, are you scheduling too many kitchen folks or paying too high a rate in the kitchen? The cooks need to be
pretty busy all day to have a decent labor cost.

Lastly, you should calculate your labor cost as total labor v. total sales rather than just the food labor v. food sales. A
restaurant calculates all of its labor against all of its sales to get that 30%ish figure rather than just looking at kitchen labor
vs. food sales. Front of house staff typically makes a lower rate than kitchen since they are getting tip income so they will
not add much to labor $ but generate a large portion of sales in beverage and merch.
I took a peek at the menu you have posted online and I think there's lots of room for savings with a pretty simple menu
redesign. It appears that you have a lot of pre-prepared foods on the menu. By bringing a lot of the actual preparation in-
house and switching from mass produced products like Ranch dressing you'll be able to shave as much as 20% off your cost.
Yes your labor will go up but nowhere near as much as you'll save.

You're doing a lot of cold cuts which are incredibly expensive per ounce and if you're trying to make an impression on the
customer with appearance of value you heap them on making that sandwich either cost you way to much or force you to
charge so much that the customer won't buy it.

Most food service products distributors will do a free menu analysis for you where they cost out every item and recipe for
you. I would talk to your rep about getting this done. Take the findings with a grain of salt because they are going to
recommend more prepared products vs items that you would have to prepare yourself but its good to know where you at
right now.

We recently redesigned our menu and dropped several products from the menu that were prepared and began preparing
them ourselves. A couple examples of the savings. We were buying a pre-cooked chicken wing that we were reheating and
then saucing (they were actually very good even though it sounds terrible) but switched to a raw product that we're
roasting off in house. We're saving almost $2.50 per pound. We're saving almost $1200 a month and our sales have
increased by 40%.

We did this same thing with Italian sausage, salsa verde, salad dressings etc. Our sales went up and our cost went down. If
you can make it yourself then you should. Your customers will notice and reward you.
Owner
Grind Modern Burger
PostModern Brewers
Boise, ID
I have some background in restaurant/foodservice stuff.

Other than pricing items to reflect your costs and expected profit, two other things you need to watch for are strict portion
control (which should be standardized) and "shrinkage"...that's the food that gets consumed by the kitchen staff (often
casually but often through over-generous portioning of approved menu items for meal breaks).

Basically, nibbling on food casually or over-portioning of approved break foods are a form of stealing from the employer.
Ground rules need to be set.

On the other hand, if those things are under control, you may just need to raise your prices.
Some idea's
Your food cost should be half that. For a sandwich place. You should be shooting for a Food+Labor cost of around %55-%65.

www.restaurantowner.com has some great resources and I use FoodCostPro for menu planning and entree costing.

While I would agree that you may need to raise prices, the PERCENTAGES will not change by doing so.

Are you portioning on the line? Are your scales analog or digital? Maybe you need new ones? Are you taking Physical
Inventory (this will tell you if your wasting stuff or if there is theft)? Are you over buying? Switch vendors for anything? Who
is doing the buying?

Are these numbers trends? Did you just look at the week where your cooler died and you had to throw stuff away or has
this been going on for a while?

Labor is a different beast and while I want to say this looks high, without more info I don't think anyone could tell you
exccept for your accountant. Does this % include benefits and taxes? Who does it include? Are you an owner and do you
work there in the restaurant side of things?

Just some things to look at...
Food Cost Standard
Your food cost is way too high.
The second post to this thread is correct about the range you should be in for the check average for that type of food being
served. I used to run commercial Kitchens where we inventoried the whole house every day, including of course food in
production. These kitchens were totally organized with all food in production having labels, dates and shelf life at a
standard that was totally followed.
Also we sometimes ran " daily " food cost as an exercise. Production ideally should be about 20% over what your menu
abstract reports. A savvy KM will be able to master the Kitchens production needs and keep all inventory under very tight
control within reasonable volume trends. Lower volume is harder to run on the whole. High food cost is a sign of a lack of
proper controls and follow through in that end of the operation. ON the subject of Kitchen labor, it always better to offer
Kitchen people full time work and not force them under 40 unless they want it at a particular instance. IN this area you
need a very solid, reliable and consistent crew that takes pride in production of a quality product that is very " consistent."
Turnover will destroy this goal. The Kitchen Managers job is to produce the proper
" quality " and " quantity " of food every day. On the cook line this translates to " Food Quality " and " Ticket Times " for
which there should be a standard set and met.

I was formerly a KM and Executive Chef.
I ran the best food cost in the region for the outfit I worked for at the time.

Sincerely
Warren Turner
Industrial Engineering Technician
HVACR-Electrical Systems Specialist
Moab Brewery
Ps
Your menu should be costed out to determine where your pricing structure is landing you in relation to your food cost
standard. Years ago there was a very effective menu engineering program we used that was helpful in re-structuring menu
prices to optimize the total return. All menu items have to be costed out based on the current cost of raw materials that go
into each item. Each of those raw product items should appear on a Kitchen control form with a current price per unit from
the vendor. Your food cost target and your raw product cost determine how you set your menu prices.
Warren Turner
Thanks all for the responses, they have been helpful. We have raised prices (going to other restaurants in town, it appears
we were underpricing our sandwiches). And we are pursuing some ways to lower costs.

Sam
Thanks all for the responses, they have been helpful. We have raised prices (going to other restaurants in town, it appears we were underpricing our
sandwiches). And we are pursuing some ways to lower costs.
Not in the Brewpub Biz anymore but, if I were to do it all over again, I'd carry local menus from popular eateries that could
(you'd have to set this up with them and I'm sure they wouldn't mind increasing their business) deliver food in a reasonable
manner (time, intervals, set up specials with them so they can consoladate "runs etc.)
Loss Leader
I agree with everything, everyone said on here. Here is a new perspective.

Loss Leader.

That's the perspective. But I'll explain. I'm not saying take a loss on food. Absolutely not. But realize the margin on food isn't
as high as beer. You can accept a smaller margin if you realize its bringing in additional traffic and selling more beer. That
said I would still shoot for 30% food cost, and no more than an additional 30% labor cost, per item. I wouldn't go less than
25% profit per food item.
















http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?28337-What-quantity-of-FV-s-and-brites-to-buy
What quantity of FV's and brites to buy?
We are looking to expand in the near future and would like to get the forums opinions of what combination of fermenters
and brites would be suggested. We are looking at a total of 4 15bbl units. Our question that we are researching is what
makes sense....2 FV's and 2 brites or 3 FV's and 1 brite. Or are we not thinking correctly and should buy 5 tanks instead? Any
input would be great. Thanks all.
The answer you seek depends on so many variables, are you 15 bbl brew length? All ales? will you be fining in the
fermentors? filtering? If you are seeking simple as possible, 3 15 bbl fv's, brewed every two weeks, leaves plenty of time to
run 3 15's through 1 BBT. In a normal work week you might brew 2 batches one week and one the next, followed by 2
transfers and packagings, followed by one transfer, and the flow repeats. Are you kegging and bottling, as that adds some
complexity to the BBT schedule, but not too bad. Look at your scheduled labor days and figure out if you can have a good
flow without having to work 7 days per week. I think the perfect solution to process flow efficiency for you is 4 ea 15 bbl fv's
and 2 ea 15 Bbl BBT's, you can double brew every week, double transfer, double filter, double package and that is what
buys a weekend off with family and friends and still knocks out 120 bbls/mo. hope this helps.
Thanks Ray, at this point we are kegging everything. Our goal is to brew 20 times per month.
Fermenters and brites
Do your self a favor and buy microsoft projects. It will show you the bottle necks based on your assumptions then you can
determine how many tanks you need.
Trent
Shades of Pale
Park City UT
Do your self a favor and buy microsoft projects. It will show you the bottle necks based on your assumptions then you can determine how many tanks you
need.
A lower-tech way to go for planning purposes is a paper calendar with differently colored highlighters to indicate different
tanks and the periods in which they'd be in use thru fermentation, etc. No school like the old school!
If you get three unitanks and one brite that would be a good setup if you are planning on bottling or canning in the future. If
you are planning on just doing unfiltered draft then four unitanks would give you plenty of flexibility.
As Ray said, are you doing a 15bbl brewlength? If you are planning on brewing 20 times a month (assuming you mean
single, 15bbl batches) how on earth are you going to do that with just four uni's? Think about it. That's five brews a week.
Where is that fifth brew going? And then you're looking at a each beer getting less than a week in the tank, and you're
racking to the brite every day. Possible if you've got the staff but a tight fit. Even if you mean two 7.5bbl brews to fill a 15,
that's 2.5 15bbl brewlengths a week. Doable with four tanks but only if you're doing less than two weeks in the tank. So no
long dryhopping on IIPAs, no lagering or cold conditioning anything, no big beers. Slow ferment? Stubborn yeast? Finings
won't drop? Crashing takes longer than expected? All that will throw a wrench in the scheduling works. Wiggle-room is
golden.

We've got a 10bbl brewhouse and we started with four 10's and a brite. More cellar capacity is now on the way because we
just can't keep up. And we do about seven brews a month, with each taking 10 days (Brown) to up to a month for
completion (Kolsch, IIPA, Barleywine, etc.). But I also don't believe in rushing things. "Which' it will be ready when it's
ready" has become my unofficial slogan.
Russell Everett
ChesterBrew is right, if you make something like a Gantt diagram, it'll show you where you bottleneck pretty easily. I would
use Excel rather than drawing it all out by hand. Here's a simple example, with just one cycle filled in. It's just an example;
plug in your own numbers to get a more realistic picture.

In this excel sheet, for 20 brews a month, you'd need in total 10 FVs and 2 brights, assuming you brew M-F every week, and
that all brews need 14 days in primary and 2 in a bright tank.

EDIT: I knocked that out quickly, and I made a typo: there are 2 FV7s and what's labeled FV10 would go into FV1, so there
are still 10 total.

The brewhouse is 5 BBL.
If you are 5 bbl brewlength, are you trying to brew 3 times in one day, or cast into the fermenting beer the next day? The
optimal window for subsequent wort additions is 12-18 hrs, and is getting shorter the more we learn about it. If you have
experience with triple brewing you may know that its probably best to add the third wort to fermentor without any O2 or
aeration. Good Luck and best wishes.
Calculating the number of FV and Brites needed
To calculate the quantity of FV and Brites tanks that you need to buy you can apply some formulas which consider the
following criteria, however to make it easier for you, I can help if you provide me the following information, so I can
determine the amount of wort that will be fermented and turned into beer:

1. Mashing Room
a. Volume of beer sales/month:
b. % Loss during process from cold wort to beer packaging:
c. Number of mashings per day:
d. Number of working days per month in your mashing room:
e. Volume capacity of Mash tun (BBL or HL):

Knowing this information, I can estimate the amount of wort that is fermented and you can calculate the number of
fermenters and maturation tanks if this is your system or you can also calculate the number of unitanks. It all depends on
your brewing and fermentation system.
Likewise, you can calculate the size of your malt silo.

2. Fermentation Room
a. Volume of beer sales / month:
b. Length of fermentation period: (14 days (Ales) or 21 days (Lagers))
c. % Loss of fermented beer
d. Fermentation volume
e. Fermentation days (5 or 6 days)
f. Number of days to empty and fill tank (In your case it will take less than a day)
g. Volume capacity of your present fermenters

If the fermentation process is in other fermentation vessels, please indicate so I can make the corrections.

3. Maturation Room
If after completing the fermentation in your unitanks, do you transfer the beer to a Maturation tank or Brite Beer Tank?

a. Number of tanks at the present time:
b. Volume capacity of tanks:
c. Number of days in maturation
d. Number of days to empty and fill tank
e. Holidays, etc.
f. Foreseen event, Beer sales decline

For calculating the number of Unitanks the information is similar.
Also, do you use a different tank to prepare your beer for filling the cans or kegs?

Knowing all this information I can figure how many tanks you will need after calculating the amount of beer produced.

If interested, please, send the requested information to my email address and include a telephone number to call you in
case I have a question or doubt.


fausto.yushan@hotmail.com
Phone in the USA (703) 596-7160, if I dont answer please leave a message and I will call you back.
For planning, we use OpenProject. Its the same thing as MS project but its a free download. Its compatible with MS project
too. Assign each tank as a resource and its easy to see where different brews will end up.
Chris Enegren
www.enegrenbrewing.com



http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?27683-How-many-Glasses-for-Brew-Pub
How many Glasses for Brew Pub
How many glasses do you guys have per seat in your brewpubs?
Are you talking American Pint Glasses, British Pint Glasses, Tulip Style Pints, Flutes, Goblets, Mugs, Pilsner Glasses, Snifters,
Stange or Weissen glassware?

What is your dish washing set-up? Are you doing beer glass seperate from the plates and cutlery? Are you serving English
Styles, Sours, Hybrids, Stouts. Are you thinking about rinsing your beer glass prior to the pour?

If all of the above sounds Greek, buy bulk Pints with or without your pub logo and plan on 4 to 6 glasses per seat depending
on your turn over, you could need as many as 12. Plan for breakage and theft.
Scott Maurer
Brewer, making the best beer I can
Just Off North Jetty Road, (in my Barn)
Florence, Oregon
I was planning on only using pint glasses to start.

Thanks for the info!
You'll need way more than you think you will. Amazing how quick they chip and break. And if you get them logo-ed they'll
look cooler but then they become a theft item. Also I'd recommend getting a smaller taster size as well. Not everyone
wants a pint, and we sell the hell out of tasting flights of four 5oz beers. Course the little glasses break even more than the
pints do. :/
Russell Everett
Co-Founder / Head Brewer
Bainbridge Island Brewing
Bainbridge Island, WA
You'll need way more than you think you will
We are going non logo for service. We will have logo pint and Munich glasses for sale.

Thanks for partially answering my next question. I want to offer a 1/2 pint. Maybe like a 10oz glass for 50% of the price of a
full pint.

Also, do you recommend 5oz glasses for samplers?




http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?27808-Brewpub-building
Brewpub building
I'm looking for advice on the smallest size structure (square footage-wise) that would support a brewpub with a 7bbl
system, kitchen, bar and tables. I have recently begun the research in to starting a place here in the San Francisco area
(along the coast just south of the city) and have found an empty space that is for lease at a REALLY great ppsf. So far the
information I have gathered for the feasibility study shows that demographically this space is prime. Its also in a high traffic
area right near a very popular and crowded state beach and the total population within a 15 mile radius is ideal. So far the
space looks like it would be wonderful but I am concerned about it being too small to support a brewpub. In total it
measures 1830 square feet of space. My question is if a 7bbl system would be too big and if so, would a smaller system be
feasible in this type of space with a kitchen and bar?
That is really small, even for a three barrel or smaller you will have trouble making back the money you invest because
there is nowhere for folks to sit while they eat and drink. You will need bathrooms, kitchen and cold room, in addition to
brewing space. It may unless there is outside space and common bathrooms and you don't do food.
Sounds like a more suitable location for a bar that specializes in craft beers.
My main concern is just a craft beer bar not driving enough revenue to cover expenses as the % of revenue from food
seems to be much higher than from beer.
I guess what I'm saying is that if you are looking for a model that involves craft beer with that square footage, you're better
off carrying other people's beer rather than making in on-site because your square footage is unlikely to allow you to
accommodate that function as well as a restaurant.
So what is the consensus on the minimum sf needed to have an in-house brewpub set up with kitchen, restrooms, bar and
seating? I guess at $3sf triple net I was trying to get away with the smallest space possible. I'm reading 4000sf is the ideal
for this type of set up?
My main concern is just a craft beer bar not driving enough revenue to cover expenses as the % of revenue from food seems to be much higher than from
beer.
I suppose it depends on your overhead, but in my plans and forecasts so far, my beer has a better margin than food.
Your question depends on so many factors. What type of kitchen, configuration of the space, how many taps, how many
cold rooms, how big is your tap room, how many seats do you want, there may be code issues with restaurant/bar seating
minimums for a liq license. etc. As far as a 7 bbl brewery alone with say 4 fermenters and 4 serving tanks, etc. you need I
think at least 1000 - 1,500 just for that alone depending on configuration of that. My two cents.
Luch Scremin
Engine 15 Brewing Co.
luch at engine15 dot com
Is that $3/sf triple net a per month figure or annual? I'm guessing it is per month? That does not sound like a good deal to
me for restaurant rent unless you are certain of driving huge volumes of business through there (like turning over your
dining area more than six times a day). You mentioned it was in a state park so I'm guessing it is seasonal in nature which is
going to mean a slow off-season. Obviously CA rents are going to be higher than other places but its going to be hard to
make money with that rent bill.
Is that $3/sf triple net a per month figure or annual?...
Its per month and comparitively speaking is actually quite low for the San Francisco area. Some spaces downtown are
$15/sf per month. Still going to have to have large volume turnovers though like you mentioned to cover the cost.
Its next to a state BEACH, not state park and seasonality isn't really an issue as there are large volumes of people year round
(unless the weather is aweful). I look at it as, there are restaurants, businesses, etc. making it here on lease costs at the
same level or higher here so its doable. Question just is what size space is optimal.
As far as the size kitchen, one that supports a smaller menu (not looking for a huge diner type selection). Still deciding how
many tables.......
Our 7BBL brewery and tap room is 4000 sq/ft combined. I have no idea where we would possibly squeeze in a kitchen? So
i'd say you would need more space depending on seating wants and type of food served.
I'm doing it 2200 sf. It's cramped on the brew deck but doable. The kitchen is micro but only serving pub snacks. 10x12 walk
in. 40 seats inside 12 on a patio. I do have a fenced back area for storage/silo and keg washing so I suppose that makes a big
difference. PM me if you want to see my 3D sketchup.

Steve
And if you want to see an example of super efficient use of space, come out to the foothills and see Auburn Alehouse. 15
bbl brewery full bar and restaurant and I don't know for sure but it can't be more than 4000 or 5000 sf.














http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?27226-Closing-Cashing-Out-for-one-man-operation
Closing/Cashing-Out for one-man operation
We're starting a brew-on-premise with a small brewpub (no food, just craft beer and snacks). I guess you could call it a
"tasting room" or "tap room".

I plan on only having one person working on slower nights because we really won't need more than one person on duty
when we aren't busy. The BOP manager will be done in the early evening, so I don't want to make them stay to cash-out the
bartender at the end of the night (like a restaurant manager would do with servers).

How should closing and cashing-out be handled if it's a single person closing- up shop? They'll be able to close the register
and drop the cash in a depository safe, but what about tips? Do they just keep track of the tips (cash and credit) and then
pay themselves out of the cash drawer at the end of the night? Or is there a better way of doing it? Maybe we add the tips
to their paycheck instead of paying them each night?

I thought about just paying the bartenders regular wages instead of tipped employee wages, but I'm sure people will give
cash tips anyway. What do you all suggest?
Personally, I would have at least 2 people at any time (for safety's sake, along with logistics) in the business plan. What if
kegs need to be switched over? Who's handling the bar then?

Also be aware that some jurisdictions require a person who's on duty to either a) be an owner of the alcohol license or b)
have special training regarding said license on the premises at all times.
Personally, I would have at least 2 people at any time (for safety's sake, along with logistics) in the business plan. What if kegs need to be switched over?
Who's handling the bar then?...
Interesting points. I've seen "lone" bartenders working in quiet bars around here before. I wonder how they go about
cashing-out and receiving tips. Who knows though- they could be the bar owners.

I would just hate to have one person sitting around all night waiting to close while the other handles the light customer
load.
There are a lot of bars in the world with only one person working at any given time, including my own taproom. Need to
change a keg? The customer can wait an extra 30 seconds for his beer. Need to close the till? Count the money and turn it
off. Are you worried about someone stealing from you? Try to hire trustworthy people--if an employee wants to rip you off,
they will. If you can't live with and mitigate that risk you're better off being the employee not the employer. So go for it. No
sense in increasing labor costs needlessly.
There are a lot of bars in the world with only one person working at any given time, including my own taproom.
So how do you handle tips? Does the bartender just pay himself before closing the register?

I have trustworthy people lined up, but people can make mistakes. I suppose managers can make mistakes too though, so it
may not make a huge difference if a manager is there or not.
We just have the bartender take the card tips out of the till. We know that the cash will be short by that amount each day.
Some places don't like to do it that way, but it works for us (we're not a hugely overstaffed brewpub--we fluctuate between
one or two people helping in the taproom).























http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?27351-Labor-Expectations
Labor Expectations?
Does anyone who have an operating brewpub that might be able to help me with this? I am planning a 15bbl brewpub and
am trying to anticipate how much hourly labor will be needed in a brewhouse running about 2 batches a week. I will a
brewer on salary. What I am trying to determine is how much labor the assist. brewer is going to be. Any thoughts would be
appreciated.
Thanks
Mike
What is it that YOU plan on doing with this new brew pub?

2 (15) bbl brews a week isn't that much of a task--even if it is a 7 bbl system....

If you have 4 (15) bbl fermentors. 2 (15) bbl bright tanks and a "float" of about 40 kegs you can filter while you double
brew. Clean the FV while you brew. and be on 2 week cycles, 3 or four for lagers... Hopefully its a well engineered system
and you have some know how, otherwise--its a hard industry to screw up the first few batches on and recover....

you will need a hot water tank and a cold water tank to really make it tick. A semi automated keg washer. And if you are the
type that's saying "I don't have the money for that...", well, for $15,000 extra now, it will save you $40,000 in labor over two
years...

When Mark and I first started brewing in 1999 we were on a 10 bbl mash/kettle combo system with a 15 bbl HLT and CLT.
We had (6) 20 bbl fvs and (3) 20 bbl brights. We had a DE Filter and a meheen bottling line.

I would come in on a tuesday at 5 am and begin filtering beer we made the 13 and 14 days earlier (ales). For lagers either 3
or 4 weeks earlier. If it was 60 bbls of the same type, we would blend all 3 of the 20 bbl FV's together into the 3 bright
tanks. During the 20-40 bbl filtration, I would prep the brew ahead (heat water, mill in etc). After I topped up the 2nd bright
tank with filtered beer and switched everything to the third tank, I would begin mashing in while filtering bbl 40-60. Then I
would get all three FV's hooked together and CIP them all at the same time (will take lots of extra hoses and t's etc...)-also
begin carbonating the FVs. During this time I would clean out the first 10 bbl mash and begin boil on first 10 bbl kettle. I
would clean and add the proper yeast to all three of the FVs right before the first 10 bbl heat exchange (usually by 3 pm or
so). Once the heat exchange was going, I would begin second mash. First 10 bbl heat exchange would be done, rinse kettle,
begin lauter. Then I would clean the filter. By 8 pm, second kettle would be topped up. I would set hoses to keg washer and
start first cycle. My business partner Mark would then come in and brew/keg beer from 8 pm-8 am. I would come back at 8
am till 6 pm. From Tuesday am till wednesday pm we would filter, carbonate, keg 60 bbls of beer. We would also brew 60
bbls of beer. On a 10 bbl system. We did all our own lab work. And every other week we would bottle on a meheen all day
thursday (500 cases). Two brewers. 2800 bbls a year. On a 10 bbl system that included bottling....
We will have six serving tanks behind the bar. Should have two 30bbl ferms and two 15bbl ferms as well as a 15bbl brite.
We will have the ability to expand with an additional two 30s at some point in the future. I'd like to have 6-8 beers on tap.
Some core products and then some one offs or seasonals. We'll be kegging too, but probably at first only to make room in
the serving tanks for new batches. I think I can do the majority of the work myself but will need to have some assistant in
there to help out. Just wondering how much labor i will have to allocate to the assistant.
mfs
A Qualified Brewer should easily be able to brew 2 batches a week and do all the necessary work that goes along with that
(filtering, cleaning kegs, etc.) and still have time left over in a 40 hr week.

Dave Schlosser
Brewmaster / Founder
Naked Dove Brewing Company
Canandaigua, NY
Probably comes down to what you are willing to pay and what the minimum hours/days a week a decent assistant is willing
to work. Its always nice to have someone else who can take over when you are out or busy with something unexpected.
With your setup its a one man job. Though if you have never brewed professionally that changes things and you will also
have a harder time training someone.
Has anyone thought that maybe a 15bbl setup is too large for a 150 seat restaurant? If we are busy we can expand to seat
over 200. Wondering if better idea to start with 10bbl system and have four 15bb. ferms? Could then use the six serving
tanks. Might be able to do more specialty beers. Perhaps 15bbl is overkill?
mfs
I'd say that depends on whether your business plan is to have a standard lineup of beers or plan to have an evolving set of
offerings -- some of which may be more popular than others.

Personally, I don't know if the difference in cost between a 10bbl and 15bbl brewhouse is worth fretting over. Better to
oversize, and worst case, a 15bbl brewhouse will likely be considered more valuable if you fold and need to sell the
equipment.
15 barrels sounds like over-kill for a brewpub, ideal for a brewery. We started out as a brewpub with a 5 barrel system. For
about a year we brewed about 4 batches a month. We served out of our 4 brite tanks and growlers were not available for
sale.

One person should be able to handle all the duties. I would recommend hiring someone for restaurant duties and slowly
start to train them with cleaning duties (kegs, tanks, etc.).
I'd like to have 6-8 beers on tap from our tanks in the walk in. Figured we would fill kegs once the tanks began to run low.
The restaurant will take up the majority of the labor. We will probably have about 20 people working in there to start.
There is not going to be room for canning or bottling down the road so if we needed to expand to meet that demand it
would have to be out of a new building/brewhouse. To start I think we will sell a good amount of growlers and then maybe
kegs but space will be tight. All depends on the demand though. This will be one of the biggest restaurants in town.
mfs
Personally I love the growth aspect. But people are always talking about "when we expand". There are 1200 more licensed
breweries coming this year. There were 350 that came on last year. This is an incredibly challenging industry, and if you are
not well financed, have zero experience, or don't have a large backer or venture capitol it is a money loser for you. Only a
lucky few have made it without those credientials....

having said that, we bought a brewpub that had gone out of business in an awesome restaurant area. had nationally known
great beer. And they were a 10 bbl mash/kettle into 20 bbl bright tanks. They used the equipment for 2 years, only put 55
brews through it, and we bought it for like $0.35 on the dollar.

So, watch your money, but get a well engineered system for it. Always have FVs that can be double batched into. So a 5 bbl
mash/kettle into 10 bbl tanks. Or 7 bbl into 14 bbl fvs. In the beginning you will be single brewing. Work on recipes. Tweak
things. Try to work on efficiency from the start.

Hopefully you make it past two years. The bummer is that sometimes I know folks that have made it 8 years and are barely
squeakin by. They pay the bills and the owners pull about 45-50K a year, but they are there about 90 hours a week. Luckily
they are still happy they are in the industry, but growth isn't an option and expansion--well they have no reason to
expand...
If you are planning 20 people for restaurant then I wouldn't figure in for a separate assistant. Find one or two of your staff
that are really interested in brewing and tap them for help when you need it. As others stated here one person can do allot,
but you cant be afraid to work hard. If so hire someone else as the brewer.





















http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?27124-Financial-Model-Help
Financial Model Help
I attached some rough numbers, hope everything organized makes sense, but what bothers me is the nearly $2,000,000
required to BREAK EVEN!

Our plan is a brewpub with a limited menu. We're talking maybe 10 items TOTAL on the food menu. No waiters or
waitresses, walk up to order food, get called, go pick it up. Similar to the way Pizza Port in SoCal operates. We're looking at
having a full bar under the permit type permissible by California.

The numbers I have are based on the numbers from the 2002 NRA publication for a full service restaurant, old I know, but
all I have access to at the moment. In that book, there are no numbers for a limited service restaurant.

Does anyone have any guidance on WTH I'm doing wrong here?

From my quick 5 minute glance, it appears you may be duplicating the salaries portion of your fixed costs. If your variable
cost % of 80.5% includes salaries and your $375k fixed cost includes the same salaries, you would be charging your margin
twice.

Removing your 28.8% salaries and wages from the operating expenses puts your 'Total Variable Cost' % (which I would call
your 'Total Mixed Cost' or 'Total Indirect and Overhead') puts your contribution margin at 48.3% and breakeven at ~$775k.

Make sure the fixed costs you're 'breaking even' are mutally exclusive of the costs you're putting into your contribution
margin -- doesn't appear to be the case, but that's my 5 minute look. Cheers!
From my quick 5 minute glance, it appears you may be duplicating the salaries portion of your fixed costs. If your variable cost % of 80.5% includes salaries
and your $375k fixed cost includes the same salaries, you would be charging your margin twice
Kyle, thanks! I was following an article in a magazine, and they included it, so I did as well. There seems to be a few
mistakes in the production of their numbers now that I've continued to follow their calculations. I hope these days of
countless hours on excel aren't for shit!
Gotta love the spreadsheets! My day job involves 8-12 hours a day (depending upon the day/week) working in Excel



















http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?21232-Average-Startup-Capital-For-NanoBrewery-%282-3bbl-
system%29
Average Startup Capital For NanoBrewery (2-3bbl system)
Looking for advice on starting our nanobrewery. How much startup capital did you set aside for your startup?

Here's our situation. By years end, we'll have around $10k. From there, incoming capital goes way up because my wife
finishes PA school, and has already been offered numerous jobs after graduating. So we go from school expenses to
bringing in around $170k a year in income because I don't plan on quitting my day job until the brewery really hits its stride.
We're considering a nano loan from the SBA for 10-15k, which would mean we would have $25k to start the company.

I plan on brewing at least 4-6 times per week on a 2-3bbl system, and running a tap room on friday and saturday (and
maybe sunday) afternoons. There's already significant interest in the brewery, with local bar managers and owners asking
when we will be rolling out our first brew, so we have very high hopes. I'm not sure if I've been more excited about
anything in my entire life. I love brewing, love it when people like my beers, and would love running a small tap room &
brewery.

~Jeff
Hob Knob Brewery
Huntersville, NC
Nano Capital
We started down the nano path in January 2010, planning on using a 1 BBL brew system with plans to upgrade substantially
once off the ground. Currently, we've invested nearly $25k in equipment alone and are likely 12 months away from
launching.

In speaking with some of the other nano's that have sprung up, expect upwards of $50k minimum with permitting,
construction, rent (it takes at least 90-105+ days for TTB and local licensure), and operating capital. I'm sure the "I've done it
for less" stories will come in, but I think you'll be hard pressed to find it do-able for much less.

Check out the old "Frankenbrew" video - they mention piecing a 7 BBL system together less than $20k -- but that was back
in the 90's with substantially less expensive stainless. Good luck!
We've been fully licensed for about a year now and we have sunk quite a bit of money into this. Most of it went into the
building which is on our property so the investment into the building stays with us personally rather than with the brewery.
Equipment investment has been minimal. Part of that is our belief that the ratio of nano equipment to potential profit
needs to be as low as possible and spending tens of thousands of dollars on a system that will only net thousands of dollars
in profit is not a good business move. The other factor is that we view nano as a means to an end which is a micro brewery
so any equipment purchased will be in use for a short period of time as demand hopefully will outpace equipment capacity.
I suppose the nano equipment can be re-sold but that sounds like a pain in the ass. So our first system which was home
made with stainless 1/2 barrels lasted about 9 months. The new system which is made from recycled stainless vessels cost
me about $600 to put together and has teh capacity of 1.75 bbls. Looks like shit but it does the job. We are already at our
limit brewing 2-3 times per week so have already looked at junked dairy equipment to take us to 5bbls by next year. So that
kinda lays ot our situation. One thing I have learned is that there s more to having a brewery than brewing beer. We also
have our jobs and the brewery and soemtimes it is overwhelming. planning to brew multiple times pe rweek can be done
but I don't know ho wlong it can be sustained for. I know I can't do that.

We can't realistically do a tap room which is a big loss so if you have that option it makes success much more likely.

Anyways good luck and I hope this helps.

Tim. I can't spell worth shit
Tim Eichinger
Visit our website blackhuskybrewing.com
100k+
We have a small taproom (< 50 seats) and a small food menu as well, but we will end up spending over 100k after all the
construction and permitting is complete. We have a 3 BBL system from stouts and it was a small portion of our budget.
Make sure you consider all the costs around construction, zoning, and front of house items (assuming you are having a
taproom as well).

For example, we are using an all electric system and it cost us a little under 10k to upgrade the service at our location to the
400 amp 3 phase power. If you go the direct fire route, the hood systems/firewall requirements can sometimes be just as
pricey. We found that we priced out the brewing side very accurately but undershot how much the build-out would cost.
Luckily we had built in a large enough buffer of funds that we were able to cover everything. Like Tim mentioned, we
wanted to give ourselves the ability to expand our system as we grow, so we focused more money into the taproom and
the "bones" of the brewery than the system itself. The nano model makes it difficult to be profitable if you want to pay
yourself anything in the long run. The cliche that you should research every possible expense and then double that amount
seemed to be true with our experience and other start ups we have been in contact with.

If you need more funding, you may want to consider equity financing. We wanted to keep our overhead as low as possible,
so we raised all of our money through selling small shares to friends and family with set buy back amounts that we will
purchase back over time. If you have a good lineup of sample beers and a solid business plan, this can be done fairly quickly.
We were able to raise our funds within a month and it gave us the freedom of not being beholden to a bank.

Goodluck!

Justin
So far...19 people are telling me I'm screwed

Anyone care to guess who voted for 10-15k

The only bit of good news is that we could apply for an SBA loan as I hear they only require 20% down. At the end of this
year, we'll have a squeaky clean business plan, no debt (except a house & student loan for the wife), and household income
between 150k-185k. So at 20% down with the SBA, we could qualify for up to $85k for the nano.

That's looking more and more like it's our only realistic option. I don't want to give away ownership shares, so private
investors are pretty much out of the equation.
If you have such a baller household income, why in the world would you not just save cash for a while until you have the
funds you need?

An SBA loan isn't practical for brewery equipment. A buy/build real estate oan has a tollerable term (>15 year). If you
borrow for equipment, they will likely require a shorter term (6-7 years), in which case the monthly payment will be
enormous and tough to pay. You should go talk to a bank. They will tell you straight up what they can do for you - and I
dont think it will be what you expect.

I own and run a nano. It took over $50k in equipment and working capital before I was breaking even and I built everything
myself and saved cash at every opportunity.

Andrew
If you have such a baller household income, why in the world would you not just save cash for a while until you have the funds you need?
Yep. And talk to your accountant because the more you're able to spend accumulating equipment, the more you'll be able
to claim as deductions so some of what you're paying in taxes now can be used to accumulate equipment. Just patiently
acquire and keep the dream alive.

That's what I'm doing anyway, but my income fluctuates and I'm able to do more sometimes and less othertimes...
frustrating but if I'm ever gonna get there at all, that's the only way I want to get there.
John Little | Auburn, Alabama
General Counsel, Southern Farmhouse
If you have not yet, check this website for info on nanos.

http://www.soundbrew.com/

Maybe not what you want to hear but he tells it how it is. I don't see how anyone could start a brewery for under 25k, even
if you found free equipment. If you are adding a tasting room, well there goes all the 25k plus more, it adds up so fast your
head will spin.

Your 10k will be gone before you even start moving in your equipment. In fact, it is already gone in fees, permits, licenses,
legal documents, brewers bond, pre-payments (nobody will give you terms yet), lease deposit, etc. Start looking for the
next 10k for taphandles, coasters, starting inventory. Now start finding some real money for building your taproom, draft
system, POS, cold room, kegs, electrical work, plumbing work, HVAC work, mechanical work, walls, floors, drains, furniture,
computers, lights, decor, signage, advertising, graphic design, business cards, bookkeeper, accountant, taproom supplies,
brewery supplies, office supplies, van, gas, vehicle insurance, business insurance, glassware, chemicals, labor, state and
federal excise tax, state and federal business taxes, software, trade association fees, lease plus NNN/CAM fees, repairs, pest
control...you get the idea.

The reality is you will pay to work at your brewery and you will work harder than you ever have seven days a week, 52
weeks a year. Say goodbye to your life...

Brewing 4-6 times per week and running a tasting room? Serious? Every week?
Save your money and plan for success (larger brewery). Why kill yourself to make no money?

Good luck,
Beaux Bowman
Black Raven Brewing
If you have such a baller household income, why in the world would you not just save cash for a while until you have the funds you need?
I'm a do stuff at 100mph kinda guy...no patience (oki'm working on becoming more patient). I've been obsessing about
this thing since I finally decided to make the jump a few months back. My imagination has been running wild with all the
awesome things that go along with running my own brewery.

So the short answer is it's the dream job and I don't wanna wait If I could...I'd be in the brewery all day and havin people
enjoy some great beers in the tap room in the evenings. I got a buddy who's already volunteered to do the deliveries.
I got a buddy who's already volunteered to do the deliveries
I would be very careful about how much volunteering you allow. At some point people get tired of running kegs, pouring at
festivals, helping with events, helping with the build out, (all the other things people will 'volunteer' for) only to see the
compensation for their effort go to you and your brewery. People say they will work for beer or just to be a part of it, but
that ends real fast.
I was going to same the same thing about the volunteering. It is easy for people to volunteer but when it comes down to it
you are running a business and trying to make some money from the business. People will get pretty tired of volunteering if
you are relying on them to carry out regular activities. And if they are volunteering what are you going to do when they
can't help out one day, can't actually fire him for not showing up to work. Make sure your business plan does not count on
any volunteers but when you do get a bit of help all the better.

Mark
Listen to beauxman
He speaks the truth. Ditto looking at the SoundBrew site.

We are in our first year of production (20bbl system), and I have never seen cash disappear so quickly, nor have I worked as
hard.

Buy yourself a Sabco to play on and develop some recipes, labels, and a solid business plan, and go volunteer at another
brewery in your spare time while you save a couple hundred thousand to invest. I suspect that there will probably be plenty
of brewery equipment on the market in the next two years - especially nano systems.

BTW, we spent $15k just installing a used boiler.

Also, volunteers still need to be on a workers compensation plan in my state and I suspect it may be the same in your state
as well.
I think there are great points on both sides of the line. Heres my general take on things:

Going the nano route is going to mean busting your ass working on a small system, not making a whole lot of beer, not
making a whole lot of money (if any), and probably hating your life because you cant keep up with. But, if you have a good
paying job, a family to support, you cant afford to quit that job, and you dont have the professional experience to make
yourself feel comfortable with a lot of debt, then the nano route is the way to go. Its definitely going to take you much
longer before you can quit the day job and realize your dream of being your own boss and a brewery owner, but you can
sleep at night knowing that your family isnt in jeopardy if things turn south. In the best case scenario, you have built a
business with lots of demand and your odds of getting money from banks/investors is probably going to be better than if
they just see a business idea on paper.

Scenario 2 you say screw it and you find investors or somebody willing to help you start out for a few hundred thousand
dollars (estimate) creating a 15bbl production brewery. The costs are going to be higher for everythingbigger system,
bigger fermenters, bigger brite tanks, the 30 kegs you will need per batch you brew, steam boilers, bigger chiller, bigger
heat exchanger.the list goes on and on. I heard of a brewery in Chicago that spent close to 100k just on kegs for their
production brewery when they started. The upside is that at the end of the day, you actually can make big dollars to pay the
big bills and you also get to go to your dream job every day of the year. The downside is that if things turn south, youre up
shit creek and not only could you lose the brewery, you could also lose things youve put up as collateral on a loan (such as
your home).

Its real easy to see why people on both sides choose their path. Like they always say, high risk = high reward. In our
brewery in the works, we decided to go the nano route just for the reasons I listed which I think are the reason that most
people go the nano route. My partner and I both have good paying jobs and he has his first child on the way. We dont have
15 years of working in a production facility like a lot of people do so spending a few hundred thousand when were fresh to
the game just doesnt sit right. We know we went too small right off the bat when we ordered a 1bbl system so were now
getting ready to order a 3bbl system. Its still way undersized according to everybody who has ever started a brewery, but
its what we feel comfortable with. We are going to be distributing in a town of 3500 to a few local bars and have a small
tasting room and we are perfectly ok with that until we are comfortable enough to grow. Best case scenario, we are able to
do some fun beer experiments on the 1bbl system and brew the year round beers on the 3bbl system to distribute locally
to the bars. Since we will have no debt, my biggest worry will be keeping up with demand and if youre going to run a
business, thats the best worry you can dream of.

I guess I should stop rambling on but I guess my general advice is to do what you feel comfortable with. As much as I have
been rushing to get things open since I had the dream a few years ago, its been almost a full year since I ordered my first
piece of equipment and I am still another 6-8 months out from opening. Looking back, Im glad it took longer than I thought
because it allowed me to fund all the expenses I didnt see coming and its been a great learning experience. We are easily
going to spend 50-75k on getting up and going so definitely save up. If you can find a solid partner to help support the load,
then your burden gets cut in half. Good Luck on your adventure.

Beauxman, as a side note I was in Seattle a few weeks ago and Black Raven was one of my favorite breweries I went to. The
beers were awesome.

Cheers,
Jared Kueker
Kaskaskia Brewing Company
Any 3bbl's NOT too small?

Can I get a shout out from any Nano reading this where it is appropriately sized? And I assume that this can eliminate
production / wholesale breweries.

Nano size <> Production . Got it. Check.

I read the soundbrew.com advice long ago but still am going forward with a 3BBL for our brewpub for several reasons,

Small town, limited space (only about 35 seats), expected turns and research on other local town pub environs show that
I am not likely to move more than about 60-70 pints/day. Couple that with some modest 1/2bbl sales to a few local bars, a
handful of daily growlers, and Im at about 200bbl/yr with a once/week brew day with two 3bbl fvs and a doubled up 6bbl
fv all on a 21 day cycle.

For our business plan, roughly 80 % of the revenue comes from the restaurant side and only 20% from the brewery. Even
though it is small, and Ill be brewing weekly, Ill still be working like a fiend its a restaurant. But it does (so far) give the
projection of being a sustainable business even that small.

As for the OT cost the 3bbl brewery cost estimates are up to about 85k which does NOT include construction within
the proposed facility. I feel pretty confident about the brewhouse estimates. Decidedly less so about the construction.
How about a shout out from all the folks who went into big debt for a 15 or 20 bbl system from soundbrew and never
managed to get far beyond 1000 bbls a year before declaring bankruptcy? Anyone? Well, I guess they wouldn't be reading
this board anymore. Darn. All the nanos here would probably benefit from their wisdom.

As I read this board, nanos are doomed to failure, regardless of what they hope to achieve or how they achieve it. Gotta
crank out that pale ale, amber ale and brown ale in massive quantities to survive in this industry, right? There's no room for
anything else.
John Little | Auburn, Alabama
General Counsel, Southern Farmhouse
I'm a do stuff at 100mph kinda guy...no patience (oki'm working on becoming more patient). I've been obsessing about this thing since I finally decided to
make the jump a few months back.
To me this is your key statement. Youve got a grand total of a few months into figuring this thing out!? You
need to slow down, take a step back and DO SOME RESEARCH. Read, learn, use the search function of this site to
look for answers to any little question that pops in your head. Even starting a nano is not something you should
just wake up one day and decide "yeah that sounds cool, let's go do that" and it magically happens a week later.

Its very easy to figure out all the positives to starting/running a brewery. It is only through time/research that
you'll figure out all the bad things about starting a brewery...

but please take my advice with a grain of salt....i have been working on my plan for 6 months consistently (and
on and off for about 3 years before that) and am just now about to sign a lease. I have been slowly acquiring
equipment over the past 1.5 years and stockpiling money to get me through 9 months of rent/buildout with no
income...
I read the soundbrew.com advice long ago but still am going forward with a 3BBL for our brewpub for several reasons,.
Chime in after a few years in business, not theory on paper...I have a 15 and 75 seats + some wholesale, undersized...plan
for success.
-Beaux
In terms of Nano feasibility - I've been running mine for almost 4 years now, I've been cash positive from quite early on,
recovered all my sunk costs already and am net profitable. I went nano because I have a good day job and a family, wanted
to elevate my brewing and got tired of proclamations that it can't be done and decided to see for myself. I haven't really
jumped into any of these threads before since everyone's nano path is really different and there isn't really too much of a
common path or average capital expenditures figure that would be too meaningful. 2-3 bbl systems as an add on to a
brewpub make some sense because of the retail margin that you can capture selling beer you make, but as a stand alone
package brewery the breakeven point for the cost of a 2-3 bbl system and the ongoing overhead is further down the road
than I would be comfortable with.

That said, with the volumes you're limited to in small batches there just isn't really much headroom in the revenue stream
to make reasonable (ie. quit the day job) money, unless you have another source of health insurance and a rich spouse or
something. Nanos are good for taking passion for a hobby and using it to learn lessons about the brewing that can't be
learned through reading, watching or being told. Nanos are also good for providing a relatively low-risk entrepreneurial
exercise, learning business and developing street cred and some commercial awareness of your beer. Ultimately, in my
opinion, the best and most reasonable justification for opening a nano is to provide yourself an opportunity to learn in a
business environment where consequences are real without being life threatening. And it's a real effective - and fun - way
to go about that.

I don't think that anyone who has started a nano thinks that nano scale production is the ultimate business plan. It has to
be a means to a more significant end, otherwise it doesn't make any sense given the work involved. So I suppose my two
cents is this - make sure your business plan completes the original thought. Examine why you're opening a nano and what
the end game is, then incorporate that end game into the plan from the beginning. If you eventually want to scale it, from
what I've seen the most promising course for a nano is to spend some time (more than a year) operating at an inexpensive
pilot-scale (I'm of the opinion that 1bbl is a minimum) and then do an A round of fundraising to expand to around a 15bbl
system. Consider your time as a nano to be building the foundation for the business plan that will be circulated in your
initial fundraising round. And in the process, make sure you talk to a tax professional about how to best use expenses from
the nano to reduce your personal taxes...

Every entrepreneur would generally do their startup differently, so I suppose this isn't really advice but rather just my
perspective. I think the only piece of advice I would give is to avoid taking on any debt. With the small production volume,
your cash stream will be irregular and every dollar is significant. Having the burden of a fixed loan payment is likely to be a
huge problem. Other than that, my start up costs were well under $20,000.

Cheers. And good luck!

Kevin McGee

Healdsburg Beer Company
Sonoma County, California

"Because this town sure didn't need another winery."
Banjolawyer,

My shout out comment was meant solely to illicit response from any nano brewpubs that exist, successfully. Soundbrews
site does say

In certain instances, very small, limited operations may call for three to five barrel systems.

Has anyone out there done this (nano-brewpub) successfully without working a day job? Maybe there really are none. Im
not trying to force a square peg through a round hole. But the market in a tiny town versus Seattle, for example, are
different. I have very few location options in my small town and the one currently being explored (no money yet, no lease)
for the brewhouse portion (kettles, Fvs) is a teeny 280 sf with 9 ceilings. If I cant find a shred of evidence that anyone can
make a restaurant/brewpub profitable/sustainable at the level were looking at in a market similar to our own then Im fully
onto plan B a different, bigger location, and more capacity.

Beauxman -

You have 15bbl and 35 seats, and it appears you are in a much different area Redmond / Seattle, yes? If you dont mind
my asking, what is your bbl mix in retail pub sales / production off site sales? Local events, festivals etc. may be one area I
am seriously underestimating, but again, one has to know their town, and how many people go out to eat, and drink. It is
not uniform and so makes comparisons difficult. PM me, if you dont want to share publicly. Any info is much appreciated.

Cheers,
Dave Barleyfreak
@barleyfreak: You are correct and one size does not fit all and we are lucky here in the Seattle area where a 15bbl brewery
is undersized. My point is still valid, plan for success. If your beer is even drinkable, it will be in demand. I think nano is fine
as long as you know you will not make a dime and you will need to either grow or die. That is the reality that time will show
soon, the nano thing is really new but it can and has been boot strapped up into a "real" brewery.
I'm curious if anyone has any knowledge to share concerning the brewhouse sizes of the many various European breweries
serving their local communities in the 1800s and early 1900s. Or even today.

One of my favorite beers is a Biere de Garde made by Brasserie Thiriez in France, which was started in 1996 by a guy who
quit his corporate HR job and started brewing on a 5bbl system in a building that housed a brewery until the 1940s.

Of course, ten years later he upgraded to a 15bbl system, and I'm glad he did because I assume that's what enables his beer
to make it over here instead of just staying local.

But apparently he suffered through developing his brewery on a 5bbl system. Or maybe he didn't suffer at all. Maybe he
could've stayed local and been perfectly happy. Who knows.

Just curious about the difference between prevailing attitudes in the US concerning minimum necessary brewhouse sizes
and those of the small local European breweries that have always been so highly regarded by beer writers and travelers.

I still wonder if debt and the volume necessities to cover that debt is what really drives most of the attitudes about what's
required here.

I mean, if a guy in Belgium owns a small brewery handed down from his great grandfather and is happy double batching on
a 3 hectoliter system once a week to achieve 250 bbls a year, about which the locals and occasional American beer tourists
rave, he's considered brilliant and the envy of the brewing world.

The same sized brewery here, however, is viewed with what seems to be a tremendous amount of skepticism, not by local
consumers, but primarily by other brewers.
John Little | Auburn, Alabama
General Counsel, Southern Farmhouse
Thierez vs Banjo
Hi Banjo,

It's almost impossible to use Thierez as a comparison to the US because we don't know his details. Perhaps he saved up 5
million euros before retiring and so didn't need any income while he toiled on his 5bbl system. I'm also willing to bet that
the taxation on beer in Belgium is more favorable to the brewer. Or maybe he owned his property outright and so had no
rent/mortgage overhead. Apples to oranges.

I have run bunches of spreadsheets and I have to agree that at a nano scale (3bbl or less) you have to brew a ton to make
enough beer to make any money at all. With an active tasting room, a few guest beers and a couple of house brews and
little debt you might pay yourself $25 or $30k. That being said, I may still do it as a means to an end. As mentioned above
there are lots of reasons one might do it.

Personally I am confident in my business skills but know I need to learn more about the brewing process. Since that is my
specific case it makes some sense to brew three times per week for a couple of years to work out recipes before I commit
to the larger expense of packaging.... I do hope to move up to a 15bbl or larger system within three years because that
seems like the only way to make a decent living while brewing.

Not hopeless, just realistic.
Its always more difficult on the outside looking in.
For more than 3 years, I have accumulated equipment, struggled with blue law reform and planned (schemed) my way
through this process, finding only negativism and doubt at every turn. I personally think part of the naysayers view of nanos
is simply never being part of that group. Lets be honest guys, most of the REAL professional brewers and brewery owners
view nanos as a fad that homebrewers created to give themselves a job in a business they WANT to be in and HOPE will be
successful.

I have had more than a few conversations with larger (20+ barrel breweries and brewpub owners) and they have to a man,
told me I was losing my mind or just dreaming if I think I can make a 1bbl brew kettle in a tiny brewpub make any money at
all.

I have read and heard all the stories about everyone of them that fails because they were too small. What is almost always
not mentioned though, is how many of them had absolutely NO idea what they were doing or how many didnt appreciate
the workload and time away from family involved.
I had hoped when I began this journey to see support from the larger (3-7 bbl) breweries, but nearly everyone of them have
ridiculed my plan and goals and it is frustrating to say the least.

While I dont think any sane human being wants to just throw their money down the drain (literally), I do think the
entrepeneurial spirit is alive and well in this industry, and people found that their friends, relatives and homebrew club
members liked their beer so much that they told them they should try to sell it, and it lit a fire under many to do just that.

I dont expect you veterans of the beer business to accept my plan and ultimely you may prove to be correct in every aspect
of your position, but that will not stop me from trying. I think a few folks need to get off their high horse and help these
little breweries if they can instead of telling them how silly they are for even trying to do this job without 5 years of
apprenticeship, a brewers degree from Doemans, UC Davis or Siebel and $2,000,000 in the bank. Everyone needs to
remember that its just beer, not liquid gold pu$$y cure for cancer, alzheimers, hair loss and impotence. Its really nothing
more than an alcoholic bbq sandwich or flatbread pizza sold in liquid form.

I know its hard, its supposed to be, and many will fail, but please dont look down your nose at the little guy because you
think he hasnt paid his dues working as a cellarman or bottling line operator for five years just to get a sniff at a shift
brewers position. Were all on the same team and really look up to the big guys in so many ways for what they did learn at
school and their experience, but its my money, and if I lose it, it costs you nothing.
www.chattahoocheebrewingcompany.com
everyone needs to remember that its just beer
I hope you don't really believe that its JUST beer. We operate a 7bbl brewpub. 7bbl batch = 217 gallons = around 1700 pints
= nearly 7K in pint sales at $4 a pint.

Nobody is telling you you CAN'T start a nano and be successful. It has been done. You don't have to have experience, or
education, but practically speaking, significant experience and education will reduce your risk in certain areas. Seasoned
industry veterans ARE trying to help when they warn you of the amount of work and difficulty in successfully starting your
own brewery, and that work and difficulty can increase as the size of your brewhouse decreases. Sorry if you aren't being
told what you want to hear, but when people offer advice based on their own experience take that and use it as best you
can while still pursuing your dreams and goals. Nobody WANTS to see you fail, which is why stories and advice are offered
bluntly and freely. And be aware of the fact that for most people, they never lose the passion, nor the romanticism of being
a part of this industry. But everyone finds a balance between the romantic side of brewing and the positive cash flow side
because we are trying to make a living.

Best of luck.
This has been a great read for someone who is building a small system, with hopes/intent to maybe grow. Thanks for all
who are sharing.
I hear you Banjo! And I know you're keen on setting up a nano. Diligently doing your research and preparing properly. I've
seen this approach be successful. As long as the jump to a micro is done within a reasonable time frame, I think you could
be on the way to a viable business. BUT, (you knew that was coming) every home brewer seems to dream about opening a
nano and serving their beer to their buddies. Thousands and thousands of folks at least occasionally dream of turning their
hobby into a business. Most of these folks who start working on this dream have never brewed commercially. There is a big
difference between a home kitchen and a commercial brewery. I personally subscribe to the thought that they should
spend time in an actual commercial brewery. Jumping into the fire from a hobby is a quick way to spend lots of money on
an education. I don't know of many professional chefs who started a bistro without any commercial experience. Making a
great dinner is quite different to making a commercial venture succeed. I'm sure someone, somewhere has a contradicting
story. But that would be the minority. So, my advice is to spend time, lots of time, in a working, successful brewery. Even as
a volunteer. Your time there will be worth the money you would otherwise spend on mistakes.
Phillip Kelm--Palau Brewing Company Manager--
Worldwide Brewery Installations
www.GitcheGumeeBreweryServices.com
Gordie said it best thus far. To me, getting in on a smaller system was the only way to be successful (without putting my
family at risk of ruin). In an industry where it is becoming increasingly difficult to get experience, aside from the fact there is
more breweries than ever before. My wife and I decided put the brewery building on our property, 50 ft away from our
house (no rent). We were also able to purchase equipment without a loan. My situation is unique, as my wife and I are
already self employed resort owners, and always home anyway.

I am 7 months in on a 3 bbl system, we are cash positive. That being said, we still have to recover our investment. Right
away after opening we found out capacity was an issue, added an additional FV and BBT. We also added a walk-in cooler,
and more cooperage. I believe next year will be a good year for us, as these were all unexpected costs paid for by brewery
revenue. I am not paying myself anything. Brewing on this level has been invaluable. I have learned a ton already.

But.... the reason I started on this level (aside from the learning experience) was to build a brand, create demand, and learn
the business. In a couple years I will open a larger brewery 15-20 bbl, and keep the "pilot brewery" for recipe development.
Right now I am working my ass off, it is a means to a bigger brewery. It is the only way I could do it and still be at home to
run our "bread and butter" business. As tired as I am most days, I am happy. I am making beer I love, and brewing on my
own terms.

I am always surprised that people go to online forums ask opinions, then get upset if they don't like what they hear. If you
want to do, go for it. People are always quick to tell you you can't. DIY.

Cheers,
Clint
Workload
Hi Clint,

Would you mind sharing how often you are brewing and whether you are distributing outside your property? How much
total time per week are you spending on the brewery operation? My plan is similar to yours, start with a 3bbl system but
keep the day job for a year or two. I'm just wondering how realistic my estimate is regarding the non-brewing time
necessary for each batch.

Thanks and continued good luck with your operation
Scott
I brew on average every 5 days or so, right now we have 7 taps around our area (self-distributing). We are averaging 15 bbls
of production a month, although, I am not maxed out. I am leaving some production days on the table due to the pesky
resort business getting in the way (what can you do it pays the bills). We sell growlers three days a week, only for a few
hours each day we are open. We've managed to sell 1/2 of our production in growler sales, with limited hours.

I was a bit naive when it came to the amount of time it takes out of my day. Between brewing, CIP, washing growlers,
packaging, delivering, and small projects that come up in the brewery. You can easily assume another full-time job.

On a positive note we have 9 bars and restaurants that want our beer, as well as liquor stores calling for bottles which we
can't supply. People always want what they can't have. I know when we do expand there will be a market waiting for it.
Good luck.

Clint
Great thread!

Hope this response isn't too off topic to any readers, but to me, it applies perfectly.

I taught a class on Agroecology at UNM-Taos and we all visited a major seed farmer. He grew odd plants for roadside reveg
projects and more; thousands of acres of gorgeous plants, all for the seed industry. By his office trailer, there were a bunch
of little plots of dead plants, and only a couple of plots with live plants, odd plants, 20' by 20' plots. The class thought, " this
guy's a farmer?"

At that point, perhaps he saw the look on people's faces, he gave everybody sound advice of how he got where he is, and
still is today.

"Look in your pocket and pull out your "experiment" money. Use it wisely, and if it's meant to be, the pile may grow. If it
doesn't, move on, and grow something else. "

Life is vast. Squeezing your love for money can hurt?
I love the advice that is given on this thread, and the fact there is so many experienced brewers here, but I have to
disagree with the go big or go home philosophy. Two of the biggest success stories in brewing started
out in someone's kitchen. Sam Adams, and dogfish head. These guys both started as homebrewers, with little to no
knowledge of the industry. There are just as many success stories in the nano world as failure, the problem is you hear
more about failure than anything else, because the successes are busy running their brewery. Yes its hard work to running a
brewery, its even harder if you constantly on the phone with creditors asking when they are going to get paid or investors
wondering when they are going to start seeing a return.
Yes Sabco and all the equipment manufacturers want you to buy bigger its good business for them. Basically find
your dream, do your research, have business plan and take as much risk as you're
willing to handle.





















http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?22071-Tap-Room-seating-German-Beer-hall-vs-Traditional
Tap Room seating - German Beer hall vs. Traditional
So I would like feedback on anyone who has experience with the public's reaction to German Beer Hall seating, that is series
of long communal bench seats. We can go that rout in our tasting room or a more traditional mix of high tops, booths and
tables. You don't see many places that use the long communal bench seat... Now that would make us unique but is the
reason you don't see it because Americans just don't like it? We are located in a collage town and want both the visitors
who come once as well as locals who come again and again. It will not quite be a restuarant but will have limited food 4-5
food items (German soft pretzels, pulled pork, roasted chicken, meat and cheese trays). Talking of seating for 80-100.
Jacob Simmons
Backpocket Brewing
www.backpocketbrewing.com
We Americans generally don't seem to care for communal tables when it comes to restaurants from my experience. A
bar/beer hall/brewery taproom on the other hand is a different beast. From the sounds of things your customers will be
coming to your establishment to drink your beer and have a good time, while along the way having a bite if hunger strikes.
I've seen places work this angle and do well with it so long as they are not positioning themselves as a restaurant and they
usually benefit from a solid number of options for dining around them as it brings traffic to their brewery and gives them
good pre/post dining business.
Cheers,
Mike Roy
Brewer
Franklins Restaurant, Brewery & General Store
Hyattsville, MD

Franklinsbrewery.com
@franklinsbrwry
facebook.com/franklinsbrewery
Franklinsbrewery.blogspot.com
Good thought... One more piece of info. Our core beers are german inspired. That is a Dunkel, Helles, and Hefeweizen. So if
we don't scare people off the german is very appropriate. Just need to make sure we aren't forcing them into seating they
don't like.
Jacob Simmons
I have spent the last 4 years in Munich, Bayern and the americans the were there loved it. If your are going to do it German
style then i don't see the public hating it, if your are doing american style beers i can see the public having a problem. Just
give it a try with half of your beer hall. I would also include a stammtisch for your regulars.




http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?21533-Revenue-per-Barrel
Revenue per Barrel?
In the beginning stages of opening a Brew Pub. I know there's a lot to consider but first I'm trying to get a handle on gross
revenue per Barrel sold. I've come up with roughly $1,000 per barrel. Everyone's input would be very helpful.
There are 248 pints per barrel. So assuming zero wastage and all beer being sold by the pint, with five dollar pints you are at
$1240 per barrel.




















http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?20743-spent-grain-storage
Spent grain storage
Hello All

Our small brewpub is in an urban area and we have no room for a dumpster for spent grain. We will be giving away all of
our spent grain to some local farmers, as is common practice. I'm thinking of using Dixie plastic 55 gal. drums for storage.
Open-top w/ the seal-able lids. These drums may have to be stored inside for up to 2 days if I can't fit them in the alley
behind the building. I'm hoping the lids seal well! I'd considered Brute drums but the lids are not secure enough for me.
Plus, they're expensive.

Anyone using these Dixie food-grade drums for spent grain? Any other suggestions? 2 x 7 BBL batches per week should be
6-8 drums - any suggestions are welcome. Note that they have to fit through a standard 36" door and will need to moved
around with a hand truck.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions from fellow urban brewers.

JB
I have tried several of the plastic garbage cans, and the Brute ones are the only ones that hold up to the wear and tear and
heat. They are expensive up front but last way longer than the others I have tried. The 55 gallons ones are a bear to move
when full. We use the 30 gallon ones and the farmer does not want us to even fill these due to the weight of moving them
onto the pick up and emptying them once he gets them there.

Jim Lieb
Not sure if they still do it this way, but Schlafly Bottleworks in Maplewood (St. Louis) grains out into large wheeled totes and
then put "cold sticks" in them. The cold sticks are just a hose w/ glycol attached to a metal loop (stick) that goes into the
grain totes to keep it cool until the farmer comes to pick up.

I'm sure Otto would give you more into on the design if you were to contact him.
Jeff Byrne

12 year pro craft brewer *NOW available for hire...
Auburn, Wa - for now
30 gal. drums are what we use in the kitchen right now. After posting that yesterday I realized that a 55 gal. drum of wet
grain would be a pain to move around and nearly impossible to lift. 30 gal. Brutes sound like a good idea.

einhorn- thanks for the link - that formic acid suggestion is interesting as well - will have to consult with some agrarian
friends on that one.

Don't think we're ready for the Schlafly cold sticks just yet but that's an interesting story.
that formic acid suggestion is interesting as well - will have to consult with some agrarian friends on that one.
After reading the MSDS for formic acid I'm no longer curious. Perhaps for a larger volume mash. Much larger.

http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?19198-Brewpub-menu
Brewpub menu
Hi all-

I am not a brewpub owner...just the brewer. I was wondering, though, for those of you with brewpubs/working at
brewpubs, how many items do you have on your menu? Ours is in the range of 50 individual items, which seems on the
high end compared to some of the other local places. Just curious what other menus look like out there.

Thanks,

Adam Orrick
Head Brewer, Grove Street Brewhouse
Shelton WA
You'll probably get a flurry of answers on this question, just thought I'd post a general 'restaurant answer' (I do not work in
a brewpub, just my opinion). I think that the current "trend" is to offer a menu with a decent concept, keep it simple and as
fresh as possible. Offer what folks seem to expect of your place, be it a gastropub with higher-end dishes, but also brewpub
fare. And finally, have a signature dish.

On a side note, 50 sounds like a lot to me too. Are they throwing away a lot of spoilage or using frozen food?
In the same vane, not a restaurant owner, nor do I work in a brew pub, simplicity is key. It all depends on what you want to
be.

I remember Vinnie Cilurzo as saying "If we can't bake it, we don't make it." and that has stuck with me. Pub fare should be
wholesome, fresh and should complement your beer. Once you decide to become a restaurant, that is where the majority
of your energy will be spent.

I would design your menu around the local favorites and limit it to 10 items. Visit local restaurants for lunch or dinner and
ask, "What is the local Favorite?"
Scott Maurer
Brewer, making the best beer I can
Just Off North Jetty Road, (in my Barn)
Florence, Oregon
Posting as a restaurant owner and chef. 50 items is not to bad if you can move them or if you have cross use of base
ingredients. For example if have 10 sandwiches and each sandwich is served on its own special baked fresh bun you have a
good chance of ending up with stale bread. But if 2-3 of those sandwiches use the same bun then your chances of ending up
with stale bread is smaller. Or maybe you specialize in making your own bread pudding or super tasty croutons and having
some stale bread is part of your menu plan. Or maybe great beer and fresh bread is your niche and you will sell tons of
sandwiches each day and never have a stale bun.

So with out knowing your specific sales numbers I would say 50 sounds like a decent number. I personally have just shy of
40 items on the menu, and I make sure if an item starts to dog out I ditch it fast and find a good replacement that moves.
Just counted.

We have 60 items on our menu plus daily specials, soup etc.

That being said, our most popular items are burgers (lamb, salmon or beef) and pizzas. We have a wood-fired pizza oven
and make some pretty great za's.

We are a 'gastropub'. Whatever the heck that means. Even though we are maxing out our brewing capacity (no room for
expansion - about 30 hL/week) about 2/3 of our sales are from food.

Depends on your vibe, I guess.

Pax.

Liam McKenna
www.yellowbellybrewery.com
2/3 food sales?
Liam, is that right? That leaves ony 33 percent of the pie for beer, liquor, wine, and soda. Seems high.

As for your question, we carry about 50 items including desserts and apps with a good mix of different styles of salad,
soups, burgers, entrees, and specials.
"Uncle" Frank
Frank Fermino
Brewer I, Redhook, Portsmouth, NH
Writer, Yankee Brew News, New England
Wise-ass, Everywhere, Always
I meant to say 2/3 from everything else

Pax.

Liam
50 doesn't seem incredibly high, I mean it's nowhere near BJ's or Cheesecake Factory that have hundreds. That has to be
one of my biggest pet peeves. Restaurants with 10 page menu's serving all kinds of food styles. Seems fishy. Although when
you're in a mall or shopping center you have a lot of pallets to please.

Anthony Bordain made a menu comment once on his show 'No Reservations' which I loved; in a round-about-way, menu's
shouldn't have photos of the food and shouldn't be more than a single sheet front and back. It just depends on what you're
shooting for.
KISS, Keep It Simple Stupid. Words to live by.

We're not a brewpub, we're a bottleshop/restaurant/pub that has a very small but very inventive menu of flatbread style
pizzas and upscale chicken wings. We do a lot of seasonal experimental items like the pizza a came up with today a South
Carolina style Pulled Pork pizza with dill pickle and onion. May sound strange but it taste great.

I tend to find that places with menus with more than 15 or 20 items are menus made up of frozen food that is dropped into
a fryer. I try to make as much as possible from scratch so that means keeping the number of items to a minimum and using
as any individual ingredient in as many dishes as possible.

If you guys are doing a lot of burger and pizza biz then I would say lay claim to those items and make those the thing you're
known for. Dump everything else.
Owner
Grind Modern Burger
PostModern Brewers
Boise, ID
Loco Moco!
Everyone of you guys that sells food really need to think about this thing from Hawaii.
Rice is dirt cheap, a precooked hamburger patty and a prefried over easy egg and some brown gravy.
2 cups of rice on the bottom, hamburger and egg with gravy on top of everything.
Every item is cooked ahead of time, and just needs to be kept warm.
This stuff wont win any awards from the low cholesterol, low fat folks, but it is hearty, and cheap.
Really, dont laugh until you try it.....
www.chattahoocheebrewingcompany.com
Everyone of you guys that sells food really need to think about this thing from Hawaii!
That just sounds disgusting. Not just because it sounds like a heart attack on a plate but the idea of making up a bunch of
cooked burger patties and fried eggs and letting them sit in a steam table until you need them. If you can't make it to order
then it shouldn't be made. Only exception that rule is hot dogs.
Owner
Grind Modern Burger
PostModern Brewers
Boise, ID
That just sounds disgusting. Not just because it sounds like a heart attack on a plate but the idea of making up a bunch of cooked burger patties and fried
eggs and letting them sit in a steam table until you need them. If you can't make it to order then it shouldn't be made. Only exception that rule is hot dogs.
Its not disgusting, its actually very good. And I dont care whether or not they are precooked frankly, it tastes about the
same either way.......
thats what the heart attack gravy is for!
This was meant to be amusing btw, but I guess I should have known it would start a pissing contest over something, but I
didnt think that far ahead. Sorry!!!
This whole thing was off topic anyway......my bad!
www.chattahoocheebrewingcompany.com
I tend to find that places with menus with more than 15 or 20 items are menus made up of frozen food that is dropped into a fryer. I try to make as much
as possible from scratch so that means keeping the number of items to a minimum and using as any individual ingredient in as many dishes as possible.
Indeed. But we do not have a fryer and very little of our food comes frozen. Without a fryer, we have no fries, onion
rings...things that people expect at a brewpub. I am not talking about cheese sticks and poppers, because that isn't really
our scene, but I think a lot of people expect fries with their burger. The owners wanted to go a different direction that
typical pub fare, and that is completely fine, but I think our menu has grown because they built it around their vision, and
slowly added in the things that customers tend to expect at a pub. Personally, I think it makes the menu busy and a little
too eccentric. We have spoken about paring it down some, but I did want to get an idea of what other joints are doing.
Thanks for the responses everyone!






















http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?19405-getting-the-brew-pub-on-gps-systems
Getting the brew pub on gps systems
Basic question, how? We have all seen them and used our GPS to find the closest Starbucks, sushi joint, etc. But how does
that info get "out there"? For both a new brew pub that is starting up and, as is my case, we are changing names and the
new info will be helpful so drivers dont pass us while looking for what we used to be called. Any ideas how this works?
"Uncle" Frank
Frank Fermino
Brewer I, Redhook, Portsmouth, NH
Writer, Yankee Brew News, New England
Wise-ass, Everywhere, Always
Open a Google business account (free) and you can place your business on the google map. If someone googles "beer" in
your area, you pop up on the map.

Bing (microsoft) has a similar service.

When you register your web page with the search service, make sure you have links to the map. That will end up giving you
a permanent place-pin on the map.

The google service also tracks hits to your webpage, and how many people who looked at your map looked at your page,
and vice versa. Excellent for tracking stats that help you tweak your page, content, and any social networking you have
linked.

The search/mapping community has really embraced this web 2.0 user generated content idea, so the more people that
visit your site/read your tweets/like you on facebook/find you on a map, the more validation your location and site
get...that's how you get that permanent marker. The social media marketing is now far more important than effective
metadata tagging for websites, which is why a popular blog or wikipedia article on a given subject often comes higher on a
search engine than a webpage from a company that has spent significant coin tweaking their meta data and registry for top
billing.

At least, that's the free and easy way. There are more complicated and expensive ways...
but I'm a brewer, so I'm cheap.

Nat
Thanks Nat. The "cheap" comment made me laugh. We are not cheap, we are fruggle.
Nice to know the magic of the internet just sort of picks it up. Once we have a new site there will be a blog and ties to other
sites, so that should help.

Anyone else had similar experinces?
"Uncle" Frank



http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?19233-Ratio-glasses-versus-taps-Styles
Ratio glasses versus taps/Styles

Hello everyone,

Last night I was suggested an idea from a professional in the restaurant business. The idea is not bad, but I find it
constraining but logistically it makes senses.

So; the expert told us, that to arrange our glassware supply toward our menu of styles in taps or vice versa. So this bring a
constant logistic toward glassware and increase stability for the taps menu.. (????).

So if my establishment posseses,

50% american pint glass
10% Pilsner/ flute
20% Tulip
10% chalice
10% sniffer

therefore my menu should be:
50% of my taps with style related to pint glass such as porter, IPA, Pale Ale etc etc etc... so on a 10 taps (for better
reference) 5 taps can be served with APG, 1 with a flute or Pils, 2 with Tulip, 1 with chalice and 1 with a sniffer.

Anyone ever worked that way?
The government will fall that raises the price of beer.
- Czech Proverb
Just because half your taps are of a style associated with a glass type does not mean half your sales, or glassware use at any
given time, will be of that type. The tail is not supposed to wag the dog as they say.

To me it seems most logical to supply glassware based on SALES of each style.
Just because half your taps are of a style associated with a glass type does not mean half your sales, or glassware use at any given time, will be of that
type. The tail is not supposed to wag the dog as they say.
True!
- Czech Proverb




http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?19133-does-more-taps-more-sales
Does more taps = more sales

Its a basic question that I think the answer is no. If I have 6 lines and sell 1 bbl of each in a week versus having 3 lines and
sell 2 bbls of each in a week, Im still selling 6 bbls a week. I think the concentration needs to be in how to get more people
in the door and/or more consumption through pricing, specials, and advertising. To me the idea of offering more lines is
simply to give the brewery more variety. But if I have 8 servers, will an 9th make a difference if I cannot increase traffic? Of
course maybe having more lines looks more attractive so maybe more people come in, but is this a stat that can be
measured?

If anyone has struggled with this question please let me know. Im pulling my hair out, and Im already shaved bald.
"Uncle" Frank
Frank Fermino
Brewer I, Redhook, Portsmouth, NH
Writer, Yankee Brew News, New England
Wise-ass, Everywhere, Always
That's the rub, how to get more clientele through the door.

If a Brewery, you're kind of stuck with those who want to see the brewery operation and have a pint.

If a Brew Pub, you can offer meal specials (remember you're a restaurant first and a brewery second), Monday Night
Football Specials, be open to business meetings, get a local brew club in for beer and offer yourself as guest speaker, There
are Hockey games, Basketball Games, College Football, Baseball, Auto Racing events, all can be promoted to get butts in the
seats. Exploit what you think will be popular in your area, how about a Snow Castle building competition, Halloween
Costume contest, keg throwing contest, Scottish Week or Irish Week?
Scott Maurer
Brewer, making the best beer I can
Just Off North Jetty Road, (in my Barn)
Florence, Oregon
This sounds like an economics question...

I see two scenarios where increasing lines will not increase consumption. Those scenarios are: 1)where the venue is running
at capacity; i.e. just open the valve on the tank and go, and 2) if the beers on the new lines are direct substitutes in
consumption; i.e. if you add domestic lager-American IPA-wheat beer A when you already have domestic lager-American
IPA-wheat beer A. (There is a large "but" in here. If you are at capacity in serving, but not in seating, then repetitious lines
are a good thing.)

However, if you are not at capacity, and you are adding brands that are sufficiently different from or complimentary to your
current line up (think new biere de garde, or a line up of IPAs with some novel and striking difference), then, assuming that
consumers have perfect information, you will be able to capture some new number of consumers with this new line. So, if
your outreach to new customers is solid, your new recipes are cool, and you've already got a good thing going, then it
seems like you're going to grab some new beer drinkers.

The real question, as I see it, is whether or not the increase in consumer base and spending is sufficient to cover the short-
and long-term costs of the new lines. My guess here (and it is only a guess) is that 2-4 new lines will get people excited. Less
is boring and more is overwhelming, and getting the balance right is a going to be a nifty trick. Especially if you have to find
space for it in your brewery.

That was fun. Next time I'll get my old microecon books and we'll do this over domestic lager-American IPA-wheat beer A.

Cheers,
Bill
Here's my short answer:

At our brewpub we don't have 12-14 of our beers on tap because we are busy. Rather, we are busy because we have 12-14
of our beers on tap.

Cheers,

Scott
Scott Metzger
Freetail Brewing Co.
San Antonio, TX
Seeing 18 years worth of draft accounts, my 2 pennies is that if customers leave because they can't find anything they, or
their buddies, like to drink then you should have more choices (or even in bottles). However if your customers enjoy the
fresh tasting beer of your competitors better than the more stale kegs you serve, then you have too many taps for your
customer base.

I pulled my beer from an account with over a hundred taps because it was around 2 months to sell through a keg. The day I
did, the owner told me proudly he was adding 20 more taps. All their beer tasted like crap.

Fresh beer is soooo good!
I'd vote for rotating taps before addition if it is just variety you are after.
More taps slows inventory turnover

We installed a brewery in our pub in '94. On top of 5 beers of our own, we continued to carry 5 -7 import taps at that time.
Now we have 2 imports (for styles we don't do like a cider and whatever) plus 5-6 of our own.

The lesson we've learned is simple: more taps does not mean more customers coming in the door. Palatable beer makes
them come in the door. A minimum amount of choice makes everyone at the table happy and they come back as a group.
Brew across a few beer styles but make them all palatable.

Too much choice and your fresh beer doesn't remain fresh. You'll still sell the same amount of gallonage per week but it will
be spread over 9 batches instead of 5. The beer won't taste optimal and you either risk dumping or selling old beer to
customers. In slower times of year (like this week cuz people are out shopping), I cut back on the total number of taps
somewhat, again to keep my inventory moving and in peak flavor.

We also found a relationship between recipe style and turnover. If the beer is NOT generally palatable except for a few hop
heads and roast nuts, then only those few people will drink it and it will take you that much longer to move that specific
inventory. Furthermore, overly strong flavors don't help customers learn to cross over to different styles. If you want your
customers coming back and bringing new friends, it helps if your product is unique but accessible.

Tim
The Ship Inn




















http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?18930-Hiring-a-bartender-for-a-brewpub
Hiring a bartender for a brewpub

Hello All,

Questions about hiring bartenders in a beer-specific bar. We will be offering our beer and regional wines, only. No liquor.
This excludes a lot of a typical bartender's technical skillset. Most bartenders I've met can mix any cocktail you can name,
but know little if anything about beer.

I realize we'll have to do extensive staff education on the beer topic, but how have folks in similar situations advertised for a
bartender? The main "bartender" skills we're looking for are people skills and honesty. Should we just advertise for a
bartender and look for a good/interested fit? Or specifically *not* hire a bartender and hire a beer geek with good people
skills? To be honest, when we open, one of the principals will be behind the bar at all times anyway.

Kind of an open question, I'm just looking for any insight gathered through experience.

Thanks,

JB
I think that you will be missing out on lots of sales by limiting yourself to just beer & wine. An in NY, you are allowed to sell
hard liquor with a microbrewery license as far as I know.

My opinion: get a good bartender who fits on a persoanl basis (and someone you can trust) and teach him/her about beer if
they are missing that knowledge.











http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?18454-Can-you-be-successful-in-a-small-town
Can you be successful in a small town?

Are there any brewpub owners out there experiencing success in a town of 20,000 or less?

I live in a great community of about 20000. Great buildings available for great prices. Just wanting to see if pub owners are
profitable in smaller communities.
From my perspective, it not only can be done, many have done it!!
Yes it can!
Were in a town of 5,000! We get a big tourist crowd during the summer, which helps keep you afloat during the winter. But
it can definitely be done. @drinklocal
Thanks for the links. I found a few to be outdated, prior to the market crash. One link was recent, which is a huge help.

@drinklocal:

That's great news. Our town is just under 20,000. No good restaurants, mostly chains, we have three big week long events
throughout the year which bring decent tourism. And we sit dead center between two city's of nearly 100,000 people
(about 30 min north and south).
Just my perspective: I think that a brewpub could make it in a very small city, but with one caveat: you realize that you are
opening a restaurant with a brewery attached, not the other way around. Cater to locals and tourists, create an interesting
atmosphere, fill a niche (sports bar, gastropub, simple tasting room with snacks, etc), and concentrate most of your efforts
on the food side - this will make or break you.

Good luck!
We opened in Dec. 2008 in a town of about 5,000 residents. However, there is a large medical center in town that employs
about 12,000 (many of their employees live throughout the region and commute in).

We opened with a tiny kitchen, a 5 bbl brewhouse, and about 70 seats (bar and dining). We struggled since the beginning
keeping up with beer production.

We just completed our expansion. We still have a tiny kitchen, a 5 bbl brewhouse, but we now have about 100 seats (120
during nice weather due to outdoor deck), and we added two 10 bbl fermenters and two 10 bbl serving tanks to help keep
up with demand.

I guess it depends on a lot of variables, but this town and the great people throughout the area have welcomed us and
supported us from the beginning. It can be done. Study your demographics and build your place around your target market
and be consistent (beer, food, atmosphere must all match with what your target audience is seeking). Good Luck!
Damien Malfara
Old Forge Brewing Company
Danville, PA
Damien

What's your square footage?
Just my perspective: I think that a brewpub could make it in a very small city, but with one caveat: you realize that you are opening a restaurant with a
brewery attached, not the other way around. Cater to locals and tourists, create an interesting atmosphere, fill a niche (sports bar, gastropub, simple
tasting room with snacks, etc), and concentrate most of your efforts on the food side - this will make or break you.
Exactly what I was going to say! If the town is big enough to support a new eatery/pub, having tasty beer brewed on-
premises is just a plus...

Tim
Square footage
We started out with 1800 sq. ft. and just added about 900 sq. ft. brewery space and 700 sq. ft. dining area. The original
space was two floors...about 900 sq. ft. per floor. We added the brewery space next door on the first floor and the new
dining area above that on the second floor.
Restaurant
We get by from our food sales for sure. I have a 3 bbl brewhouse that i double batch about 6 times a month. In the summer
its impossible to keep up with beer production, but we make due.
Check out Worth Brewing

they are brewing on a sabco. In a tiny town in Northwood Iowa. Population less than 2000.

Peter is not making money hand over fist, and he works his ass off there. I think only a couple of part time bartenders,
everything he does by himself. But he draws alot of locals. Its quite a ways off the main highway so he is not picking up
random passer bys.

It takes some balls to open a brewpub in a small town of bud drinkers.
I stopped in once and he makes good stuff.
Small town nano
Len Moeder at Mo's place in Beaver, KS has been brewing for a number of years in a town of about 750.

http://mosbrewpub.com/
Steve Bradt
Free State Brewing Co.
Lawrence, KS
And don't forget about Hank is Wiser in Cheney, KS.
Define Success
Define success: we're still open after 15 years of brewing and cooking in a town with 1200 people, one traffic light, 3
churches and 2 other bars. We're within 20 minutes of larger towns (over 15,000) and they make the drive because we
make it worth their while.

Tim
The Ship Inn
Define success: we're still open after 15 years of brewing and cooking in a town with 1200 people, one traffic light, 3 churches and 2 other bars. We're
within 20 minutes of larger towns (over 15,000) and they make the drive because we make it worth their while.
You DO make it worthwhile. I'll vouch for that.
I've done a LOT of traveling for my work over the last 20 years and can only say that The Ship is at the very top of my list of
brewery/restaurants that 'do it right'.
The addition of a brewhouse was a brilliant addition to what was already a great and beer savvy eatery and bar.
Keep it up, Tim.




















http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?18217-Alternative-to-conventional-cold-room
Alternative to conventional cold room?

I have been looking at a small location that was previously an eatery, it has only had a few large refrigerators in it and
restaurant equipment. It has a room with a floor drain thats 10' x 18' with what looks like a stucco wall surface over a
sheetrocked wall.
Has anyone ever gone into a small unit and created a cold room within an existing room that actually worked?, or am I
dreaming?
www.chattahoocheebrewingcompany.com
I've don it twice. You would need to remove the existing sheetrock and make the walls 6" deep. Fill with spray in foam to at
least r-19 rating cover with blue board and FRP and add a refer system. For a door, frame in a sliding glass door.

Jeff Lockhart
Brewmaster, Ouray Brewery
Ouray, CO
Call if you need more info. 719-429-6176

Slainte
Yup, we built our own cold room: about 25'x25'. Traditional stick frame with foam board on the "inside" of the studs and
then plywood painted with a sealant paint. The other side of the studs got a "helluvalot" of traditional insullation. We have
the whole thing on a slab and home-built the door with salvaged cold-room door hinges and closure. Installed fans and a
glass sliding double door for the tasting room employees access to the bottles. Keeps at around 37F and the beer happy!
It can be done!

Prost!
Dave

p.s. if you are in a cold climate, consider installing temp-controlled louvers to the outside so you can pipe in the cold temps
and save on your compressor!
Glacier Brewing Company
406-883-2595
glacierbrewing@bresnan.net
Pre-fab insulated panels?

We found a supplier who had previously-used panels stripped from decommissioned cold rooms - these are powder-coated
thin steel sheets sandwiching foam insulation and are self-supporting, fitted into a channel on the floor. Went up in about
1/2 a day - possibly a little more expensive than building it from scratch, but neat, clean, and very efficient. Wangled a
lovely matching sliding door to round it off.
Gregg
Just saw this thread, thought I'd chime in. I built a walk in cooler out of scrap pieces of SIPs (structural insulated panels). Its
6, 8, 10, or 12 inches thick white styrofoam with OSB on either side. I just contacted the owner of a nearby SIP company and
he said I could come by and take all the scraps I wanted. One of the "scraps" was 8' x 8' and 10 inches thick! That became a
whole wall of my walk-in. I'm still trying to figure out what to put over the OSB to make the walls cleanable but so far I've
only spent money on a couple dozen cans of Great Stuff. I'm gonna cool it with a window AC unit and one of these:
http://www.storeitcold.com/
p.s. if you are in a cold climate, consider installing temp-controlled louvers to the outside so you can pipe in the cold temps and save on your compressor!
Were planning to do this as well. Offset your heating bill with the savings in electric!





















http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?19303-Starting-out
Starting out

Any advice on the cost differences between actually building a brewery and starting out by contract brewing first?

I know contracting out is much cheaper, but about how much does a production brewery charge you for their time and/or
ingredients? What kind of margins are attained using both methods for every keg of beer you sell?

Sorry, I'm a little green to this subject and am trying to learn more about it, any and all advice is appreciated - or some sort
of direction/link to let me find the answer for myself.

I'm currently working in a brewery and the costs seem astronomical and hard to keep up with unless you're selling a good
amount of beer.

Thanks all!
Go to Lion Brewery

See what they can put together for you. I believe the mins are about 300/mth though. But it will get you started in your
research. Then check with any local breweries to see if they have extra tank space for you to make your beers. You would
be surprised how many breweries out there make beers for other companies.

Maybe call around to beer marketing companies in your area and see what they are doing. You are in CT right? How about
Contrell? Newport Storm was brewing there for years. Get a quote. Best to buy all your own packaging materials, even
glass, and hopefully you can arrange production with that brewery to get deeper pricing on your smaller orders.

There are so many aspects to look at when making this decision. To me... it is simple. Do you have a preference on owning a
brewery vs. owning a beer marketing company. Sure... you can build after you 'prove' your brand but for my money and
spirit of my goals, I prefer the birth of the brand being along side my process and vision of a brewery with a brand rather
than a brand that may someday build a brewery.

There is no doubt it will cost you more time, energy, and money to get started by building a brewery first, but that's my
plan and I say go for it!

Best of luck
Matthew Steinberg
Brewer
High Horse
Amherst, MA
Wow, thanks a lot for the info, I really appreciate it. I'll definitely check out Lion.

What did you mean by the 300/month? Would the producing brewer charge a flat rate like that or on a per batch basis?

As to your point of going all the way and building an actual brewery...as much as I'd love to be able to do that, financial
constraints don't allow it at this point. I certainly see the merit of having a facility to make your beer, but this seems like the
smartest way to start, at least for me.

Anyone out there have any contract brewing success stories? Or anyone in the midst of it?

Thanks again for your post!
I meant to write... 300BBL. That is their minumim batch size which equals about 4000 cases of 12oz bottles.
Matthew Steinberg
Ohh ok, that makes more sense. That sounds pretty ambitious for a new brand - 3600BBLS/year? Am I wrong there?

Any info at all with regards to profit per barrel? I'm doing my research, and I know it varies based on your ingredients, but
I'm just wondering what a good target is.
Very ambitious to be just another beer on the shelf with no "brewery" or story or uniqueness for people to experience. I'm
with Matthew on this, in that, whats the point. There is so much to the process that is owning/building a brewery and that's
what people buy, marketing is paramount yes but it must have a foundation. I personally have disdain for contracted
brands and know many craft enthusiasts that do as well. Good luck in your endeavors, but I would go the genuine route
even if it did mean a 2 barrel brewery.
Contract brewing
This is an option that we are leaning towards while finding the right location. There are costs to figure in like packaging,
storage and how will you distribute. You will have to buy/rent cooperage if your not just bottling. You could try contacting
Mike at Cavalry Brewing in Oxford. In the end, if you have to startup by this method it does still get your product to the
public and wasn't that your goal ? Good luck ! ! !
Doug
@SouthCountry

I definitely see where you're coming from, believe me, if I had the wherewithal to actually build the brewery, I'd do so in a
second. But for now, I have an excellent local brand in mind that has exceptional marketability. Hampden kind of hit it on
the head for me - if I can get my product into the customer's hands while scouring the area for a good location and have
ready cash flow once the brewery is built - what's the harm in that?

I know that the basic premise for brewing is to be "as authentic as possible", and that means brewing your own beer, but if
the financial aspect of that is so daunting, why start off already behind the 8-ball?

Again, I'm not preaching here, I'm just seeing what other people think of that strategy.

Last question, do contract breweries allow you to have your head brewer there to make your batches? That way you can
have some control? Does it vary by brewery?

Thanks again everyone, I appreciate any opinion that comes, even if it's an argument against me.
I definitely see where you're coming from, believe me, if I had the wherewithal to actually build the brewery, I'd do so in a second. But for now, I have an
excellent local brand in mind that has exceptional marketability. Hampden kind of hit it on the head for me - if I can get my product into the customer's
hands while scouring the area for a good location and have ready cash flow once the brewery is built - what's the harm in that?
Usually no, contracting is a hands-off process, mainly legal/insurance issues. However if you can find a brewery that will
allow you to use excess tank space time/cooperage and you can convince them to go in on a alternate premise license then
you could be hands on. Prism beer in Philly and a few others went that route. Just be careful when putting a lot of romance
behind a "excellent local brand in mind that has exceptional marketability", mainly that at a bare minimum you'll need
"excellent branding" to get beer sold, much less out sell other established brands. Not saying it cant be done, just err on the
caution side when projecting.
Thanks, I certainly appreciate the insight.

Last question, for anyone out there - any words of wisdom with regards to bringing in a brewmaster? Is it good to give
equity in the company or just a salary? I've heard it's good to have him invested in it so you can't just lose him to someone
else for a little more money, especially since he's such an important part of the process (I'm not seasoned enough to run
the show yet).

















http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?18554-Sealing-a-Brewhouse-Floor
Sealing a Brewhouse Floor

We're moving into a new production facility with concrete floors. Does anyone have any suggestions on a good product to
seal the concrete with that can take the abuse we're about to throw at it? We used that garage floor grey sealant paint we
found at a hardware store for our current brewhouse and it has worn through in a lot of places after 2.5 years. We're
looking for something that looks decent and will maintain for a long while. Thanks a lot for any suggestions.

-Brad Veltman
Aspen Brewing Co.
brad(at)aspenbrewingco(dot)com
We're moving into a new production facility with concrete floors. Does anyone have any suggestions on a good product to seal the concrete with that can
take the abuse we're about to throw at it? We used that garage floor grey sealant paint we found at a hardware store for our current brewhouse and it has
worn through in a lot of places after 2.5 years. We're looking for something that looks decent and will maintain for a long while. Thanks a lot for any
suggestions.
I've had good luck with Epo-Flex
It isn't cheap. Nothing beats epoxy-mud set octagonal quarry with epoxy grout.
We used a petroleum based concrete floor sealer on our floors. It was left over from a school construction project=free so
we went for it. Our concrete guys were positive about it=not brewers

The sealant is holding strong (1 year 8 months) in our walk in cooler, primary ferm room and grainery. IE kegs slide smooth.
In our keg cleaning section, the area we run CIP loops on our hoses and complete general parts cleaning the sealant didnt
last much more than 6 months. Its not chipping or blowing apart the sealant is just gone. One spot that gets the brunt of
acid during keg washing is pretty pocked up.

It seems like an epoxy sealer like the one hindukush mentioned is the only way to go for long lasting protection on
concrete. That's the route we will go if we ever get the chance. Or tile.

Good luck!








http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?14610-chilled-fermenters-vs-walk-in-cooler-space
Chilled fermenters vs. Walk-in cooler space

Hi folks,

I just spent my entire sunday working out brew house floor plans, designs, etc... my partner asked a question:

is it better to just chill the fermenters with a glycol system which allows them to live right out in the open part of the brew
house, or carve out somewhat precious space in the walk in cooler and keep the fermenters cool along with other goods in
the cooler?

Thought process here:

1. - to chill the fermenters adds cost in glycol system, adds cost in that fermenters are more $$ as well.

2. - putting the fermenters in the walk in means the walk in has to be bigger, and the cooling system for it must be much
larger...but at a saving in cost of FV's

anyone willing to share comparison figures of their projects? seems like every brewery I have visited - i see it done both
ways. There must be a cost justification to do it one way or the other.

As a bonus question - im curious how chilled fermeters work in the first place. I assume cold glycol comes in one side and
exits slightly warmer out the other side. is there issue of temperature stratification within the fermenter? do you attach a
pump and move the beer around to make sure there are no hot/cold spots?

Or does the rising C02 cause enough mixing that the temp stabilized by offgassing action?
Paul Di Napoli
Grunt, Brewer, Idea guy
Division Street Brewing
pdinapoli@gmail.com
There seems to be some confusion here as to placing fermenters vs. placing lagering/bright beer/serving tanks. Fermenters
should not go in the same cooler space dedicated for "refrigeration" temps. Even at the coldest, your lowest fermentation
temperature should be 45F, which is 5 degrees higher than the "Food Danger Zone" limit that a cooler would be set below.
If you're going to place the fermenters in a refrigerated space, it must be a dedicated space separate from the existing
cooler, and your tanks will still need a chilled water circuit in order to control individual tank fermentation temperatures
(usually, you don't have all of your tanks fermenting at exactly the same time and at the same rate).

There is an argument over the efficiency of placing the bright beer tanks (BBTs) in a walk in cooler or just having them
outside with glycol jackets. This was discussed in an other thread titled "Cooling Question: Glycol vs. Cold Room" and covers
the pros & cons.

As far as your question about temperature uniformity across a fermenter, as long as you have rapid fermentation, your tank
contents are well mixed. If having small temperature variations in fermenting beer were a problem, then the 3000 bbl
fermenters of the big boys would include mixers/rousers, but they don't. I think you have to start thinking more about
potential contamination than uniform liquid temperature when you start talking about connecting pumps and hoses for
recirculation.
I have a question along these same lines. We are working toward opening a (very) small brewery and are leaning towards a
fermentation room with a dedicated A/C unit. We expect to have at most 3-3BBL fermenters in there at a time with only
one actively fermenting (generating heat) at a time. Are there any problems with this that I am missing other than the
obvious that all our beers will have to ferment at the same temp? I guess I'm mostly concerned that we will not be able
adequately control ferm temp using ambient air alone, even if we have a fan to keep the temperature even.
I haven't seen a micro using anything other than individually chilled and jacketed fermenters. The big boys with, say 500
hectolitre + FVs can put them in a cold room, without being individually insulated, but individually controlled attemperation
(glycol / brine / alcolhol / direct expansion ammonia) becuase the rate of heat transfer compared to the mass of fermenting
wort is very small. I think that a very small vessel, say 3 - 5 hl will lose heat far too fast to the surrounding cold room
atmosphere. I have worked with uninsulated 120 brl (about 200 hl) FVs, and we got very variable fermentations and end
flavour / pH compared to the lagged vessels, especially in winter. When we lagged a few with simple rockwool the
consistency improved dramatically.

In other words - go for individually lagged and temperature controlled vessels

So why have FVs in a cold room ? Well I've no personal expereince of using them but have been told they are cheaper to
buy and install, cheaper to maintain - i.e. no repairs to insulation / cladding, easy access for any repairs to the tank material,
and can be put in a room which is isolated totally from the external environment. Having seen the condition of a number of
cold room FVs, and compared them to individually insulated / clad FVs which are free standing in the British climate (i.e.
wet) they are far more hygienic. Downsides include huge energy costs if using hot cleaning, but then most if not all the cold
room vessels are cleaned using cold detergents, mainly acid.
Dick
If you are doing ales only has anyone run across a brewer that is not chilling their FV at all but just keeping them room temp
(assuming the room temp is around 68-70 degrees)?
If you are doing ales only has anyone run across a brewer that is not chilling their FV at all but just keeping them room temp (assuming the room temp is
around 68-70 degrees)?
Not good enough. Fermentation creates heat, so if you have a room at 68-70 degrees, your actual fermentation
temperature will be much higher. You'd need a room that averages in the mid to high 50's to ambiently cool a fermenter at
ale temperatures.
I have seen fermentations run up to the high 80's F when the temperature control failed on a fermenter.

If you want to maintain good control over your beer, you want good temperature control. Having the ability to keep a
fermenter within a tight temperature range (there will be some variation within the tank, but not great if the jackets are
properly placed and the fermentation is adequately vigorous) allows you to really dial in the profiles of your beer depending
on your yeast strain, whether you brew a Kolsch, a lager, an English Pale, an American IPA or a Saison. Each strain produces
different characteristics at different fermentation temperatures.

In addition it offers a greater chance to repeat a great batch of beer.
I too have seen 76 degrees in just 12 hours when I forgot to open the valves on my FV jackets. For a SMALL batch (1 bbl) you
could probably get away with ambient cooling provided the vessel was not insulated. Also using ambient doe snot allow you
to crash cool or cols condition your beer without affecting the rest of the fermenters.

Glycol systems are not blazingly expensive in the big scheme of things and there are lots of options for piping that can be
explored to keep those costs down.
Mike Pensinger
Chief Brewer
Holston River Brewing Company
Bristol, TN
I recently did a Saison, which I wanted to allow the temp to get into the 80s on to finish dry enough. The conical was
allowed to free rise (we kept the glycol set for 85F, just in case), and it hit 84F using just ambient.
-Lyle C. Brown
Brewer
Camelot Brewing Co.
Unless you live somewhere that the temperature is steady year-round, you will have difficulty producing consistent, batch-
to-batch products with no individual control over fermentations ( ie. jacketed fermentors). Different yeast can do some
pretty funky things at different temperatures. Funky and yeast are two terms that should never be paired in a sentence.
Unless perhaps in relation to a halloween costume.

A consumers primary perception of quality in a product they regularly consume is consistency.

Ditto on the lmitations of sanitizing/washing options in a cold room (due to intense energy costs if using hot options).
Having brite tanks in walk-ins can sometimes make sense but I've often seen this option fail because of traffic in and out of
the space or doors being left open etc.

Pax.

Liam
I have to confess that I think I was confusing myself when I originally posted this thread.

Looking back (reading back) of course I cant put fermenters in a chilled walk-in - too cold - fermentation would never kick
off.

Also good to know that jacketed fermenters are the only way to keep FV's under control during primary.

I think i was pondering the methods of chilling beer for serving at the tap. I think I had a thought/idea that we could chill a
serving tank with a glycol system and NOT need to install the vessel into a walk in.

(save money on walk in space and cooling capacity but at the expense of having to buy a glycol system large enough to chill
4 to 7 serving tanks and chill the beer lines out to the towers at the bar).

Sounds like brew house design pretty much mandates a glycol system almost no matter what to be able to cool the FV's,

And we have to build the walk-in large enough to hold tanks to serve beer from.

True?
Paul Di Napoli
You CAN find/build serving tanks (or suitable facsimiles) that are jacketed, well insulated and skinned.

You, will, however, even with said tanks, more than likely also need a python line system with a glycol cooling trace line on
the way to dispense taps as well. We run this cooling trace from our central 1500 l glycol reservoir which is at a pretty
constant -5.0oC. (which also cools our tanks, conditioning, fermentors and brite).

Liam


















http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?14553-Startup-Sales-Projections
Startup Sales Projections
I'll start by saying I have never worked in a bar... that being said....

I am establishing my sales projections. I know - many factors here to analyze. I'm basing my sales based on 80% of the
lowest volume of other local brew pubs or 396 BBLs in our first year with 80% of that draught/20% accounts. Is is insane to
think that I can sell 30 BBL's a month by month 5 given that distibution of sales? The location has no other brew pubs in it,
has great foot traffic, and nightlife.

I guess what I am saying is I have no idea how to determine how many kegs the place will sell per month since I have never
worked in a bar before. Lets assume our beer is good eh?

Any hints, tips, or advice???
We projected 200bbls for the first year. Very conservative. But...whadya do? Our planning was based on the BARE
MINIMUM nut we had to crack and how many pints and kegs to go and a few outside accounts (and food) it would take per
day/week/month to break that nut.
By week two of opening we realized we needed employees..(a couple volunteer friends helped us open the doors)....by
month two we had 7 staff....at month five we have 14 staff members and we have met our first year projection. CRAZY!

Plan for the worst...hope for the best!
Good luck!
Hi,

I'm currently working on my first year sales projections for a small brewpub, and any information you learned would be
greatly appreciated.

Thanks and cheers!

Rich















http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?15292-Brewery-waste-water-percentage
Brewery waste water percentage
I finished a meeting with the city sewer board trying to get my conditional use permit for the brewery. They want to know
how much waste will be discharged from operations, Is there an industry standard percentage of water usage vs waste I can
use to try to estimate discharge? They not only want to know how much is used in brewing but also how much water is
used and discharged in the cleaning process as well, total brewery activity waste.

Thank you in advance for any help.

Trent
Rule-of-thumb is water volume = 5x beer production volume; you may be able to get that down to 3x (or even less) with
efficient design and processes and great diligence. Gregg
I've always heard around 5x. A recent headline in a German Newspaper touted an environmentaly friendlier brewery with
4x, so 3x would be phenomenal.
Most citys want to say that input = output. They charge for the water and charge for sewer based on that. Try to get credit
fo beer brewed! Thats bbls of water not going to the sewer.
Operations Director, Tin Roof BC
ted@tinroofbeer.com
"Your results may vary"












http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?16144-Lactobacillus-handling
Lactobacillus handling
I'm a homebrewer, but am helping a new/startup brewery that is considering adding a line of sour beers. We're looking for
information (books, recommended classes, etc.) on handling and maintaining lactobacillus, and possibly brettanomyces, in
the brewery. Lactobacillus has been added to small batches made on the pilot system, and in my opinion they've been
excellent, but the brewer wants some additional knowledge/assurances before expanding production. Currently, the
brewery is keg-only, with a bottling line to be installed in coming months.

Any tips/suggestions would be appreciated.
Wild Brews: Culture and Craftsmanship in the Belgian Tradition
By Jeff Sparrow is a good source for wild/sour beers.

There's been many articles written on the subject in various brewing magazines, I can't think off the top of my head what
issues/volumes, but I recall many issues of Brewing Techniques, Brew Your Own, Zymurgy ect.....

Good luck!
Cheers,
Mike Roy
Brewer
Franklins Restaurant, Brewery & General Store
Hyattsville, MD

Franklinsbrewery.com
@franklinsbrwry
facebook.com/franklinsbrewery
Franklinsbrewery.blogspot.com
Thanks for the tip. Specifically, the brewer is interested in learning more about different ways to ferment with lactobacillus
on the commercial level (mixed or separate fermentation vessel, blending, pasturization, etc.), and in reducing the risk of
cross-contamination within the brewery. Also, and probably most importantly at this point, he doesn't want the lacto to
spread to his outside customer's keg lines, potentially jeaprodizing the account.
My advice/ suggestion: Stay away from lacto b. Sounds like you are creating a monster that will destroy your brewery and
put folks on the street.
My advice/ suggestion: Stay away from lacto b. Sounds like you are creating a monster that will destroy your brewery and put folks on the street.
That is crazy talk. Many breweries & brewpubs (including us) have had great success with Lacto and Brett with no
contamination issues. The key is separate everything for your wild brews, hoses, clamps, tanks, gaskets, kegs, etc. The
reality is that your brewery already has wild yeast and bacteria floating around. If you sanitization practices are sound, and I
mean very sound in combination with segregating equipment you will be fine.

The NW MBAA meeting this past fall had a great panel discussing barrel brews. I additionally had the great pleasure to drink
some beer and shoot the shit with Peter Bouckaert. His main advice was just having fun with it, dont try to control it or
worry about taking in depth notes. The same beer from different barrels will even taste different. The key is in the blend.

Currently our brewpub has 24 wine barrels and 4 bourbon barrels in our wild ale production. I like to mix up what we are
using in the barrels, some have Brett C., or Brett B., Some we did a 100% ferment in the barrels with 3 Fonteinen blend,
some the La Folie blend, and others just lacto. Our oldest barrels are 7 months old now and should be ready to blend in
another 6-7months.























http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?15456-Dry-hopping-equipment-methods
Dry-hopping equipment/methods
We have had success with our 1 BBL pilot system by adding hops direct to the fermenter. When scaling up to 30 BBL's, what
methods and techniques are brewers using to dry-hop for flavor and aroma? We'll be using pellet hops, and at least 22# per
30 BBl's. Thanks.
I heard of breweries blowing them through the racking arm under CO2 pressure. I heard of breweries going through the
trouble of tranferring on top of hops after primary...

Right now my technique is simple and working...

1 plato before terminal gravity I drop pellets in through the 2" PRV on top (watch out for eruption of foam and hops!!!),
then I bung/spund/close up the tank.
(sometimes I wait a few more days before hopping in the fermenter if I need yeast from that tank.--not often though)

I rouse with CO2 a few days in a row then crash after D rest.

At most I am adding 22 pounds into a 40 bbl batch.
Matthew Steinberg

Brewer
High Horse
Amherst, MA
Sanitize a converted keg with no lid and a tri-clamp fitting welded onto the front. Attach pump to tri-clamp and hose to the
side of the pump. Hook hose up to the racking arm on the fermenter. Dump fresh beer into sanitized keg, mix hops, and
pump back into the fermenter. Easiest no mess way I have seen.
We have used several methods using pellets and whole-leaf hops. We have done both where we have added hops through
the PRV near the end of fermentation, as well as transferred the finished beer on top of hops in a second vessel.

A method we have used with success recently is to utilize a cartridge filter housing without the cartridge (large enough to
hold several pounds of hops) and a pump to transfer hops into the fermenter while the fermenter is still under pressure.
The pump-cartridge housing-fermenter setup is designed so that we can recirculate beer from the fermenter, through the
housing and back into the fermenter.

We CIP and sanitize the filter housing, pump and hoses. We purge everything with CO2. We then open up the filter housing
(we found one that we can mount to a wheeled platform and that opens on top) and add the hops to the housing while
purging with CO2. We then close it back up and purge again with CO2. We then flood the canister with beer from the
fermenter, allow the hops to soak for 15-20 minutes, then pump it back in and recirculate slowly until the hops have left the
housing. We repeat until we have added all our hops.

We wanted to find a way to add the hops to the beer under pressure and not long before the beer is transferred. There
were two purposes. One is to utilize as much natural carbonation as possible (by bunging it and not venting before adding
the hops). The other is to minimize oxygen pickup. By trapping the carbonation and adding the hops under pressure while
keeping the system as purged as possible, we try to minimize any O2 pickup.

http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?15777-Small-Town-Brewpubs
Small Town Brewpubs
I am in the process of planning a new brewpub business in a small town in Minnesota. The town has a population of about
200 with a lot of seasonal traffic and is on the Mississippi River. I am looking for other brewpubs in small towns away from
large metropolitan areas. If you know of a nice brewpub, list the name and what you like about the place. I would like to get
a list of other businesses together and contact them to see how manage in a small market.

If you know of a cool brew-on-premise place, list them and give them a little free pub!
Aiken brewing co. in Aiken SC does well for themselves in a small town, not anywhere near as small as 200 people though.
Check out Colorado Boy Brewing Co. Tom does well in Ridgeway, CO.
Pelican Brewery and Pub in Pacific City, Oregon has been holding it's own.
Northern Ales, up on the Canadian border in remote NE Washington state
http://www.northernales.com/
Revolution Brewing in Paonia CO
Population of 1633
http://revolution-brewing.com/

Dolores River Brewing in Dolores CO
Population of 920
http://www.doloresriverbrewery.com/

Ourayle House Ouray CO
Population of 932

Colorado Boy Pub and Brewery
Population of 751
http://www.coloradoboy.com/
And Tom is setting it up to be a teaching opportunity if you come out here!
Size doesent matter!
We are in a small town- 6500 pop. I think the secret to our sucess is that we are both the nicest resturant and tavern in
town. We even have people comming from larger towns 1/2 hour away to come here. The other bars in town are smokey
and dark- we are non-smoking totaly.
Beer wise, you have to be very responsive to the coustomers- you cant live off the beer geeks and homebrewers. This
means making what they want -not what you want them to want. Although you can be surprised- My first Belgian (7.5%
golden) went real fast!
The people in small towns tend to be loyal to good places and support local business, and we do that too. We use as much
local produce as we can. We have a co-op garden in a lot behind the resturant run by a local gardener. Our spent grain goes
to the rancher we get alot of our beef from and we let people know this: We are invested in the envionment.
We support local bussiness too. Even if i could get it a little cheeper though Grainger- Ill still go to the local Ace Hardwear.
Basicaly we only go out of town if we cant find it here.
We also do alot of charity and other events. We stay involved in the community.
It can be done but i would shoot for being the biggest and best place in town!!
Operations Director, Tin Roof BC
ted@tinroofbeer.com
"Your results may vary"
Not a very exciting place, but some good, basic beers, in a small town in the middle of NOWHERE:

Portsmouth Brewing Co. / Mault's Brewpub
224 Second St.
Portsmouth, OH 45662
phone: (740) 354-6106
-Lyle C. Brown
Brewer
Camelot Brewing Co.
Boathouse Brewpub
Currently I am the headbrewer at the Boathouse in Ely, Mn with a popultion of 3700. We generate 150 bbls per year in
3.5bbl batches. Any other questions please feel free to email.