25/09/14 The Kubrick Site: Kubrick speaks in regard to 'The Shining'

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KubrickonTheShining
AninterviewwithMichelCiment
MichelCiment:Inseveralofyourpreviousfilmsyouseemtohavehadaprior
interestinthefactsandproblemswhichsurroundthestorythenuclearthreat,
spacetravel,therelationshipbetweenviolenceandthestatewhichledyouto
Dr.Strangelove,2001:ASpaceOdyssey,AClockworkOrange.Inthecaseof
TheShining,wereyouattractedfirstbythesubjectofESP,orjustbyStephen
King'snovel?
StanleyKubrick:I'vealwaysbeeninterestedinESPandtheparanormal.In
additiontothescientificexperimentswhichhavebeenconductedsuggestingthat
wearejustshortofconclusiveproofofitsexistence,I'msurewe'veallhadthe
experienceofopeningabookattheexactpagewe'relookingfor,orthinkingofa
friendamomentbeforetheyringonthetelephone.ButTheShiningdidn't
originatefromanyparticulardesiretodoafilmaboutthis.Themanuscriptofthe
novelwassenttomebyJohnCalley,ofWarnerBros.Ithoughtitwasoneofthe
mostingeniousandexcitingstoriesofthegenreIhadread.Itseemedtostrikean
extraordinarybalancebetweenthepsychologicalandthesupernaturalinsucha
wayastoleadyoutothinkthatthesupernaturalwouldeventuallybeexplainedby
thepsychological:"Jackmustbeimaginingthesethingsbecausehe'scrazy".
Thisallowedyoutosuspendyourdoubtofthesupernaturaluntilyouwereso
thoroughlyintothestorythatyoucouldacceptitalmostwithoutnoticing.
Doyouthinkthiswasanimportantfactorinthesuccessofthenovel?
Yes,Ido.It'swhatIfoundsoparticularlycleveraboutthewaythenovelwas
written.Asthesupernaturaleventsoccurredyousearchedforanexplanation,and
themostlikelyoneseemedtobethatthestrangethingsthatwerehappening
wouldfinallybeexplainedastheproductsofJack'simagination.It'snotuntil
Grady,theghostoftheformercaretakerwhoaxedtodeathhisfamily,slidesopen
theboltofthelarderdoor,allowingJacktoescape,thatyouareleftwithnoother
explanationbutthesupernatural.Thenovelisbynomeansaseriousliterary
work,buttheplotisforthemostpartextremelywellworkedout,andforafilmthat
isoftenallthatreallymatters.
Don'tyouthinkthattodayitisinthissortofpopularliteraturethatyoufindstrong
archetypes,symbolicimageswhichhavevanishedsomehowfromthemore
highbrowliteraryworks?
Yes,Ido,andIthinkthatit'spartoftheiroftenphenomenalsuccess.Thereisno
doubtthatagoodstoryhasalwaysmattered,andthegreatnovelistshave
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generallybuilttheirworkaroundstrongplots.ButI'veneverbeenabletodecide
whethertheplotisjustawayofkeepingpeople'sattentionwhileyoudo
everythingelse,orwhethertheplotisreallymoreimportantthananythingelse,
perhapscommunicatingwithusonanunconsciouslevelwhichaffectsusinthe
waythatmythsoncedid.Ithink,insomeways,theconventionsofrealisticfiction
anddramamayimposeseriouslimitationsonastory.Foronething,ifyouplayby
therulesandrespectthepreparationandpacerequiredtoestablishrealism,it
takesalotlongertomakeapointthanitdoes,say,infantasy.Atthesametime,it
ispossiblethatthisveryworkthatcontributestoastory'srealismmayweakenits
gripontheunconscious.Realismisprobablythebestwaytodramatizeargument
andideas.Fantasymaydealbestwiththemeswhichlieprimarilyinthe
unconscious.Ithinktheunconsciousappealofaghoststory,forinstance,liesin
itspromiseofimmortality.Ifyoucanbefrightenedbyaghoststory,thenyoumust
acceptthepossibilitythatsupernaturalbeingsexist.Iftheydo,thenthereismore
thanjustoblivionwaitingbeyondthegrave.
Thiskindofimplicationispresentinmuchofthefantasticliterature.
Ibelievefantasystoriesattheirbestservethesamefunctionforusthatfairytales
andmythologyformerlydid.Thecurrentpopularityoffantasy,particularlyinfilms,
suggeststhatpopularculture,atleast,isn'tgettingwhatitwantsfromrealism.The
nineteenthcenturywasthegoldenageofrealisticfiction.Thetwentiethcentury
maybethegoldenageoffantasy.
AfterBarryLyndondidyoubeginworkstraightawayonTheShining?
WhenIfinishedBarryLyndonIspentmostofmytimereading.Monthswentby
andIhadn'tfoundanythingveryexciting.It'sintimidating,especiallyatatimelike
this,tothinkofhowmanybooksyoushouldreadandneverwill.Becauseofthis,I
trytoavoidanysystematicapproachtoreading,pursuinginsteadarandom
method,onewhichdependsasmuchonluckandaccidentasondesign.Ifind
thisisalsotheonlywaytodealwiththenewspapersandmagazineswhich
proliferateingreatpilesaroundthehousesomeofthemostinterestingarticles
turnuponthereversesideofpagesI'vetornoutforsomethingelse.
DidyoudoresearchonESP?
Therereallywasn'tanyresearchthatwasnecessarytodo.Thestorydidn't
requireanyand,sinceIhavealwaysbeeninterestedinthetopic,IthinkIwasas
wellinformedasIneededtobe.IhopethatESPandrelatedpsychicphenomena
willeventuallyfindgeneralscientificproofoftheirexistence.Therearecertainlya
fairnumberofscientistswhoaresufficientlyimpressedwiththeevidenceto
spendtheirtimeworkinginthefield.Ifconclusiveproofiseverfounditwon'tbe
quiteasexcitingas,say,thediscoveryofalienintelligenceintheuniverse,butit
willdefinitelybeamindexpander.Inadditiontothegreatvarietyofunexplainable
psychicexperienceswecanallprobablyrecount,IthinkIcanseebehaviourin
animalswhichstronglysuggestssomethinglikeESP.Ihavealonghairedcat,
namedPolly,whoregularlygetsknotsinhercoatwhichIhavetocomborscissor
out.Shehatesthis,andondozensofoccasionswhileIhavebeenstrokingher
andthinkingthattheknotshavegotbadenoughtodosomethingaboutthem,she
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hassuddenlydivedunderthebedbeforeIhavemadetheslightestmovetogeta
comborscissors.Ihaveobviouslyconsideredthepossibilitythatshecantell
whenIplantousethecombbecauseofsomespecialwayIfeeltheknotswhenI
havedecidedtocombthem,butI'mquitesurethatisn'thowshedoesit.She
almostalwayshasknots,andIstrokeherinnumerabletimeseveryday,butit's
onlywhenIhaveactuallydecidedtodosomethingaboutthemthatsheeverruns
awayandhides.EversinceIhavebecomeawareofthispossibility,Iam
particularlycarefulnottofeeltheknotsanydifferentlywhetherornotIthinkthey
needcombing.Butmostofthetimeshestillseemstoknowthedifference.
WhoisDianeJohnsonwhowrotethescreenplaywithyou?
DianeisanAmericannovelistwhohaspublishedanumberofextremelygood
novelswhichhavereceivedseriousandimportantattention.Iwasinterestedin
severalofherbooksandintalkingtoheraboutthemIwassurprisedtolearnthat
shewasgivingacourseattheUniversityofCaliforniaatBerkeleyontheGothic
novel.WhenTheShiningcameupsheseemedtobetheidealcollaborator,
which,indeed,sheprovedtobe.Ihadalreadybeenworkingonthetreatmentof
thebook,priortoherstarting,butIhadn'tactuallybegunthescreenplay.With
"TheShining,"theproblemwastoextracttheessentialplotandtoreinventthe
sectionsofthestorythatwereweak.Thecharactersneededtobedevelopedabit
differentlythantheywereinthenovel.Itisinthepruningdownphasethatthe
undoingofgreatnovelsusuallyoccursbecausesomuchofwhatisgoodabout
themhastodowiththefinenessofthewriting,theinsightoftheauthorandoften
thedensityofthestory.ButTheShiningwasadifferentmatter.Itsvirtueslay
almostentirelyintheplot,anditdidn'tprovetobeverymuchofaproblemto
adaptitintothescreenplayform.DianeandItalkedalotaboutthebookandthen
wemadeanoutlineofthesceneswethoughtshouldbeincludedinthefilm.This
listofsceneswasshuffledandreshuffleduntilwethoughtitwasright,andthen
webegantowrite.Wedidseveraldraftsofthescreenplay,whichwas
subsequentlyrevisedatdifferentstagesbeforeandduringshooting.
Itisstrangethatyouemphasizethesupernaturalaspectsinceonecouldsaythat
inthefilmyougivealotofweighttoanapparentlyrationalexplanationofJack's
behaviour:altitude,claustrophobia,solitude,lackofbooze.
StephenCranewroteastorycalled"TheBlueHotel."Inityouquicklylearnthat
thecentralcharacterisaparanoid.Hegetsinvolvedinapokergame,decides
someoneischeatinghim,makesanaccusation,startsafightandgetskilled.You
thinkthepointofthestoryisthathisdeathwasinevitablebecauseaparanoid
pokerplayerwouldultimatelygetinvolvedinafatalgunfight.But,intheend,you
findoutthatthemanheaccusedwasactuallycheatinghim.IthinkTheShining
usesasimilarkindofpsychologicalmisdirectiontoforestalltherealizationthat
thesupernaturaleventsareactuallyhappening.
Whydidyouchangetheendanddispensewiththedestructionofthehotel?
Tobehonest,theendofthebookseemedabithackneyedtomeandnotvery
interesting.Iwantedanendingwhichtheaudiencecouldnotanticipate.Inthe
film,theythinkHallorannisgoingtosaveWendyandDanny.Whenheiskilled
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theyfeartheworst.Surely,theyfear,thereisnowaynowforWendyandDannyto
escape.Themazeendingmayhavesuggesteditselffromtheanimaltopiary
scenesinthenovel.Idon'tactuallyrememberhowtheideafirstcameabout.
Whydidtheroomnumberswitchfrom217inthenovelto237inthefilm?
TheexteriorofthehotelwasfilmedattheTimberlineLodge,nearMountHood,in
Oregon.Ithadaroom217butnoroom237,sothehotelmanagementaskedme
tochangetheroomnumberbecausetheywereafraidtheirguestsmightnotwant
tostayinroom217afterseeingthefilm.Thereis,however,agenuinely
frighteningthingaboutthishotelwhichnestleshighupontheslopesofMount
Hood.MountHood,asithappens,isadormantvolcano,butithasquiterecently
experiencedpreeruptionseismicrumblessimilartotheonesthatafewmonths
earlierprecededthegiganticeruptionofMountSt.Helens,lessthansixtymiles
away.IfMountHoodshouldevereruptlikeMountSt.Helens,thentheTimberline
Hotelmayindeedsharethefieryfateofthenovel'sOverlookHotel.
Howdidyouconceivethehotelwithyourartdirector,RoyWalker?
ThefirststepwasforRoytogoaroundAmericaphotographinghotelswhich
mightbesuitableforthestory.Thenwespentweeksgoingthroughhis
photographsmakingselectionsforthedifferentrooms.Usingthedetailsinthe
photographs,ourdraughtsmendidproperworkingdrawings.Fromthese,small
modelsofallthesetswerebuilt.Wewantedthehoteltolookauthenticratherthan
likeatraditionallyspookymoviehotel.Thehotel'slabyrinthinelayoutandhuge
rooms,Ibelieved,wouldaloneprovideaneerieenoughatmosphere.This
realisticapproachwasalsofollowedinthelighting,andineveryaspectofthe
decoritseemedtomethattheperfectguideforthisapproachcouldbefoundin
Kafka'swritingstyle.Hisstoriesarefantasticandallegorical,buthiswritingis
simpleandstraightforward,almostjournalistic.Ontheotherhand,allthefilmsthat
havebeenmadeofhisworkseemtohaveignoredthiscompletely,making
everythinglookasweirdanddreamlikeaspossible.Thefinaldetailsforthe
differentroomsofthehotelcamefromanumberofdifferenthotels.Theredmen's
room,forexample,whereJackmeetsGrady,theghostoftheformercaretaker,
wasinspiredbyaFrankLloydWrightmen'sroominanhotelinArizona.The
modelsofthedifferentsetswerelit,photographed,tinkeredwithandrevised.This
processcontinued,alteringandaddingelementstoeachroom,untilwewereall
happywithwhatwehad.
Therearesimilarmovieclichesaboutapparitions.
FromthemoreconvincingaccountsIhavereadofpeoplewhohavereported
seeingghosts,theywereinvariablydescribedasbeingassolidandasrealas
someoneactuallystandingintheroom.Themovieconventionoftheseethrough
ghost,shroudedinwhite,seemstoexistonlyintheprovinceofart.
Youhavenotincludedthescenefromthenovelwhichtookplaceintheelevator,
buthaveonlyuseditfortherecurringshotofbloodcomingoutofthedoors.
Thelengthofamovieimposesconsiderablerestrictionsonhowmuchstoryyou
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canputintoit,especiallyifthestoryistoldinaconventionalway.
Whichconventionsareyoureferringto?
Theconventionoftellingthestoryprimarilythroughaseriesofdialoguescenes.
Mostfilmsarereallylittlemorethanstageplayswithmoreatmosphereandaction.
Ithinkthatthescopeandflexibilityofmoviestorieswouldbegreatlyenhancedby
borrowingsomethingfromthestructureofsilentmovieswherepointsthatdidn't
requiredialogcouldbepresentedbyashotandatitlecard.Somethinglike:Title:
Billy'suncle.Picture:UnclegivingBillyicecream.Inafewseconds,youcould
introduceBilly'suncleandsaysomethingabouthimwithoutbeingburdenedwith
ascene.Thiseconomyofstatementgivessilentmoviesamuchgreaternarrative
scopeandflexibilitythanwehavetoday.Inmyview,thereareveryfewsound
films,includingthoseregardedasmasterpieces,whichcouldnotbepresented
almostaseffectivelyonthestage,assumingagoodset,thesamecastandquality
ofperformances.Youcouldn'tdothatwithagreatsilentmovie.
Butsurelyyoucouldnotput2001:ASpaceOdysseyonthestage?
Trueenough.IknowI'vetriedtomoveinthisdirectioninallofmyfilmsbutnever
toanextentwhichhassatisfiedme.Bytheway,IshouldincludethebestTV
commercialsalongwithsilentfilms,asanotherexampleofhowyoumightbetter
tellafilmstory.Inthirtyseconds,charactersareintroduced,andsometimesa
surprisinglyinvolvedsituationissetupandresolved.
Whenyoushootthesesceneswhichyoufindtheatrical,youdoitinawaythat
emphasizestheirordinariness.ThesceneswithUllmanorthevisitofthedoctorin
TheShining,liketheconferencewiththeastronautsin2001,arecharacterizedby
theirsocialconventions,theirmechanicalaspect.
Well,asI'vesaid,infantasyyouwantthingstohavetheappearanceofbeingas
realisticaspossible.Peopleshouldbehaveinthemundanewaytheynormally
do.Youhavetobeespeciallycarefulaboutthisinthesceneswhichdealwiththe
bizarreorfantasticdetailsofthestory.
Youalsodecidedtoshowfewvisionsandmakethemveryshort.
IfDannyhadperfectESP,therecouldbenostory.Hewouldanticipate
everything,warneverybodyandsolveeveryproblem.Sohisperceptionofthe
paranormalmustbeimperfectandfragmentary.Thisalsohappenstobe
consistentwithmostofthereportsoftelepathicexperiences.Thesameappliesto
Hallorann.Oneoftheironiesinthestoryisthatyouhavepeoplewhocanseethe
pastandthefutureandhavetelepathiccontact,butthetelephoneandtheshort
waveradiodon'twork,andthesnowboundmountainroadsareimpassable.
Failureofcommunicationisathemewhichrunsthroughanumberofmyfilms.
Youusetechnologyalotbutseemtobeafraidofit.
I'mnotafraidoftechnology.Iamafraidofaeroplanes.I'vebeenabletoavoid
flyingforsometimebut,Isuppose,ifIhadtoIwould.Perhapsit'sacaseofalittle
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knowledgebeingadangerousthing.Atonetime,Ihadapilot'slicenseand160
hoursofsolotimeonsingleenginelightaircraft.Unfortunately,allthatseemedto
dowasmakememistrustlargeairplanes.
DidyouthinkrightawayofJackNicholsonfortherole?
Yes,Idid.IbelievethatJackisoneofthebestactorsinHollywood,perhapsona
parwiththegreateststarsofthepastlikeSpencerTracyandJimmyCagney.I
shouldthinkthatheisonalmosteveryone'sfirstchoicelistforanyrolewhich
suitshim.Hisworkisalwaysinteresting,clearlyconceivedandhastheXfactor,
magic.Jackisparticularlysuitedforroleswhichrequireintelligence.Heisan
intelligentandliterateman,andthesearequalitiesalmostimpossibletoact.In
TheShining,youbelievehe'sawriter,failedorotherwise.
DidthescenewherehefightswithShelleyDuvallonthestairsrequiremany
rehearsals?
Yes,itdid.ItwasonlywiththegreatestdifficultythatShelleywasabletocreate
andsustainforthelengthofthesceneanauthenticsenseofhysteria.Ittookhera
longtimetoachievethisandwhenshedidwedidn'tshootthescenetoomany
times.IthinktherewerefivetakesfavouringShelley,andonlythelasttwowere
reallygood.WhenIhavetoshootaverylargenumberoftakesit'sinvariably
becausetheactorsdon'tknowtheirlines,ordon'tknowthemwellenough.An
actorcanonlydoonethingatatime,andwhenhehaslearnedhislinesonlywell
enoughtosaythemwhilehe'sthinkingaboutthem,hewillalwayshavetrouble
assoonashehastoworkontheemotionsofthesceneorfindcameramarks.Ina
strongemotionalscene,itisalwaysbesttobeabletoshootincompletetakesto
allowtheactoracontinuityofemotion,anditisrareformostactorstoreachtheir
peakmorethanonceortwice.Thereare,occasionally,sceneswhichbenefitfrom
extratakes,buteventhen,I'mnotsurethattheearlytakesaren'tjustglorified
rehearsalswiththeaddedadrenalinoffilmrunningthroughthecamera.InThe
Shining,thesceneintheballroomwhereJacktalkstoLloyd,thesinister
apparitionofaformerbartender,belongstothiscategory.Jack'sperformance
hereisincrediblyintricate,withsuddenchangesofthoughtandmoodallgrace
notes.It'saverydifficultscenetodobecausetheemotionflowissomercurial.It
demandsknifeedgedchangesofdirectionandatremendousconcentrationto
keepthingssharpandeconomical.InthisparticularsceneJackproducedhisbest
takesnearthehighestnumbers.
Heisjustasgoodwhenhewalksdownthecorridormakingwildmovements
beforemeetingthebarman.
IaskedJacktoremembertherumpledcharactersyouseelungingdownthe
streetsofNewYork,wavingtheirarmsaboutandhissingtothemselves.
DidyouchooseShelleyDuvallafterseeingherinThreeWomen?
Ihadseenallofherfilmsandgreatlyadmiredherwork.Ithinkshebroughtan
instantlybelievablecharacterizationtoherpart.Thenovelpicturesherasamuch
moreselfreliantandattractivewoman,butthesequalitiesmakeyouwonderwhy
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shehasputupwithJackforsolong.Shelleyseemedtobeexactlythekindof
womanthatwouldmarryJackandbestuckwithhim.Thewonderfulthingabout
Shelleyishereccentricqualitythewayshetalks,thewayshemoves,theway
hernervoussystemisputtogether.Ithinkthatmostinterestingactorshave
physicaleccentricitiesaboutthemwhichmaketheirperformancesmore
interestingand,iftheydon't,theyworkhardtofindthem.
Howdidyoufindtheboy?
About5000boyswereinterviewedinAmericaoveraperiodofsixmonths.This
numbereventuallynarroweddowntofiveboyswhocouldhaveplayedthepart.
Thatworkedouttoaboutonechildinathousandwhocouldactactuallynota
badaverage.TheinterviewsweredoneinChicago,DenverandCincinnati,by
myassistant,LeonVitali,theactorwhoplayedtheolderLordBullingdoninBarry
Lyndon,andhiswife,Kersti.IchosethosethreecitiesbecauseIwantedthechild
tohaveanaccentwhichwouldfallsomewherebetweenthewayJackand
Shelleyspeak.ThelocalWarnerBros.officeplacednewspaperadsinviting
parentstomakeapplicationswithphotographsforthepart.Fromthephotographs
alistwasmadeoftheboyswholookedright.Leoninterviewedeveryoneinthis
group,subsequentlydoingsmallactingimprovisationswhichherecordedon
videotapewiththosewhoseemedtohavealittlesomething.Furthervideowork
wasdonewiththeboyswhoweregood.Ilookedatthetapes.
WheredoesDannyLloydcomefrom?
HecomesfromasmalltowninIllinois.Hisfatherisarailwayengineer.Danny
wasaboutfiveandahalfwhenwecasthim.Wehadcertainproblemsshooting
withhiminEnglandbecausechildrenareonlyallowedtoworkforthreehoursa
day,andmayonlyworkacertainnumberofdaysinacalendaryear.But,
fortunately,rehearsaldaysonwhichyoudonotshootarenotcountedinthistotal.
Sowerehearsedwithhimonedayandshotonthenext.Ithinkhisperformance
waswonderfuleverythingyoucouldwantfromtherole.Hewasaterrificboy.
Hehadinstinctivetaste.Hewasverysmart,verytalentedandverysensible.His
parents,JimandAnn,wereverysensitivetohisproblemsandverysupportive,
andhehadagreattime.Dannyalwaysknewhislines,anddespitetheinevitable
pamperingwhichoccurredontheset,hewasalwaysreasonableandwell
behaved.
WhatdidtheSteadicamachieveforyouinthefilm?
TheSteadicamallowsonemantomovethecameraanyplacehecanwalkinto
smallspaceswhereadollywon'tfit,andupanddownstaircases.Weusedan
ArriflexBLcamera,whichissilentandallowsyoutoshootsound.Youcanwalk
orrunwiththecamera,andtheSteadicamsmoothsoutanyunsteadiness.It'slike
amagiccarpet.Thefast,flowingcameramovementsinthemazewouldhave
beenimpossibletodowithouttheSteadicam.Youcouldn'tlaydowndollytracks
withoutthecameraseeingthemand,inanycase,adollycouldn'tgoaroundthe
rightangledcornersofthemazepathways.WithoutaSteadicamyoucouldhave
doneyourbestwiththenormalhandheldcamerabuttherunningmovements
wouldhavemadeitextremelyunsteady.TheonlyproblemwiththeSteadicamis
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thatitrequirestraining,skillandacertainamountoffitnessonthepartofthe
operator.Youcan'tjustpickitupanduseit.Butanygoodcameraoperatorcando
usefulworkevenafterafewdays'training.Hewon'tbeanacebuthe'llstillbe
abletodomuchmorethanhecouldwithoutit.IusedGarrettBrownasthe
Steadicamoperator.Heprobablyhasmoreexperiencethananyonewiththe
Steadicambecausehealsohappenedtoinventit.Thecameraismountedontoa
springloadedarm,whichisattachedtoaframe,whichisinturnstrappedtothe
operator'sshoulders,chestandhips.This,ineffect,makesthecamera
weightless.Thetrickypartisthattheoperatorhastocontrolthecamera
movementsineveryaxiswithhiswrist.Hewatchestheframingonaverysmall
televisionmonitorwhichismountedonhisrig.Ittakesskillwhileyouarewalking
orrunningtokeepthehorizonofthecameraframeparalleltotheground,andpan
andtiltjustusingyourwrist.Afurtherproblemiscausedbyinertia,whichmakesit
difficulttostopamovementsmoothlyandexactlywhereyouwantit.Inorderto
stoponapredeterminedcompositionyouhavetoanticipatethestopandkeep
yourfingerscrossed.
TheSteadicamallowedyoutodoevenmoreofthoselongtrackingshotsyou
havedoneinallyourfilms.
Mostofthehotelsetwasbuiltasacomposite,sothatyoucouldgoupaflightof
stairs,turndownacorridor,travelitslengthandfindyourwaytostillanotherpart
ofthehotel.Itmirroredthekindofcameramovementswhichtookplaceinthe
maze.Inordertofullyexploitthislayoutitwasnecessarytohavemovingcamera
shotswithoutcuts,andofcoursetheSteadicammadethatmucheasiertodo.
Inthenormalscenesyouuseddissolvesandmanycameramovements.Onthe
otherhand,theparanormalvisionsarestaticandthecutsabrupt.
Idon'tparticularlylikedissolvesandItrynottousethem,butwhenonescene
followsanotherinthesameplace,andyouwanttomakeitclearthattimehas
passed,adissolveisoftenthesimplestwaytoconveythis.Ontheotherhand,the
paranormalvisionsaremomentaryglimpsesintothepastandthefuture,andmust
beshort,evenabrupt.Withrespecttothecameramovements,I'vealwaysliked
movingthecamera.It'soneofthebasicelementsoffilmgrammar.Whenyou
havethemeanstodoitandthesettodoitin,itnotonlyaddsvisualinterestbutit
alsopermitstheactorstoworkinlonger,possiblycomplete,takes.Thismakesit
easierforthemtomaintaintheirconcentrationandemotionallevelinthescene.
Didyoualwaysplantousethehelicoptershotsofthemountainsasthemaintitle
background?
YesIdid.Butthelocation,inGlacierNationalPark,Montana,wasn'tchosenuntil
veryneartheendofprincipalshooting.Itwasimportanttoestablishanominous
moodduringJack'sfirstdriveuptothehotelthevastisolationandeerie
splendourofhighmountains,andthenarrow,windingroadswhichwouldbecome
impassableafterheavysnow.Infact,theroadswefilmedforthetitlesequence
areclosedthroughoutthewinterandonlynegotiablebytrackedvehicles.Isenta
secondunitcameracrewtoGlacierNationalParktoshootthetitlebackgrounds
buttheyreportedthattheplacewasn'tinteresting.Whenwesawthetestshots
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theysentbackwewerestaggered.Itwasplainthatthelocationwasperfectbut
thecrewhadtobereplaced.IhiredGregMcGillivray,whoisnotedforhis
helicopterwork,andhespentseveralweeksfilmingsomeofthemostbeautiful
mountainhelicoptershotsI'veseen.
Didyouhaveallthoseextrasposeforthelastshot?
No,theywereinaphotographtakenin1921whichwefoundinapicturelibrary.I
originallyplannedtouseextras,butitprovedimpossibletomakethemlookas
goodasthepeopleinthephotograph.SoIverycarefullyphotographedJack,
matchingtheangleandthelightingofthe1921photograph,andshootinghim
fromdifferentdistancestoo,sothathisfacewouldbelargerandsmalleronthe
negative.Thisallowedthechoiceofanimagesizewhichwhenenlargedwould
matchthegrainstructureintheoriginalphotograph.ThephotographofJack's
facewasthenairbrushedintothemainphotograph,andIthinktheresultlooked
perfect.EveryfacearoundJackisanarchetypeoftheperiod.
Whattypeofmusicdidyouuse?
ThetitlemusicwasbasedontheDiesIraethemewhichhasbeenusedbymany
composerssincetheMiddleAges.Itwasreorchestratedforsynthesizerand
voicesbyWendyCarlosandRachelElkind,whodidmostofthesynthesizer
musicforAClockworkOrange.Bartok'sMusicforStrings,Percussionand
Celestawasusedforseveralotherscenes.OnecompositionbyLigetiwasused.
ButmostofthemusicinthefilmcamefromthePolishcomposerKrystof
Penderecki.OneworktitledJakob'sDreamwasusedinthescenewhenJack
wakesupfromhisnightmare,astrangecoincidence.Actuallytherewerea
numberofothercoincidences,particularlywithnames.ThecharacterthatJack
NicholsonplaysiscalledJackinthenovel.HissoniscalledDannyinthenovel
andisplayedbyDannyLloyd.TheghostbartenderinthebookiscalledLloyd.
Whatmusicdidyouuseattheend?
ItisapopularEnglishdancetuneofthetwenties,"Midnight,theStarsandYou",
playedbyRayNoble'sbandwithanAlBowlyvocal.
HowdoyouseethecharacterofHallorann?
Hallorannisasimple,rustictypewhotalksabouttelepathyinadisarmingly
unscientificway.Hisfolksycharacterandnaiveattemptstoexplaintelepathyto
Dannymakewhathehastosaydramaticallymoreacceptablethanastandard
pseudoscientificexplanation.HeandDannymakeagoodpair.
Thechildcreatesadoubletoprotecthimself,whereashisfatherconjuresup
beingsfromthepastwhoarealsoanticipationsofhisdeath.
Astoryofthesupernaturalcannotbetakenapartandanalysedtooclosely.The
ultimatetestofitsrationaleiswhetheritisgoodenoughtoraisethehairsonthe
backofyourneck.Ifyousubmitittoacompletelylogicalanddetailedanalysisit
willeventuallyappearabsurd.Inhisessayontheuncanny,DasUnheimliche,
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Freudsaidthattheuncannyistheonlyfeelingwhichismorepowerfully
experiencedinartthaninlife.Ifthegenrerequiredanyjustification,Ishouldthink
thisalonewouldserveasitscredentials.
HowdoyouseeDanny'sevolution?
Dannyhashadafrighteninganddisturbingchildhood.Brutalizedbyhisfather
andhauntedbyhisparanormalvisions,hehashadtofindsomepsychological
mechanismwithinhimselftomanagethesepowerfulanddangerousforces.Todo
this,hecreateshisimaginaryfriend,Tony,throughwhomDannycanrationalize
hisvisionsandsurvive.
Somepeoplecriticizedyouafewyearsagobecauseyouweremakingfilmsthat
didnotdealwiththeprivateproblemsofcharacters.WithBarryLyndonandnow
withTheShining,youseemtobedealingmorewithpersonalrelationships.
Ifthisistrueitiscertainlynotasaresultofanydeliberateeffortonmypart.There
isnousefulwaytoexplainhowyoudecidewhatfilmtomake.Inadditiontothe
initialproblemoffindinganexcitingstorywhichfulfillstheelusivelyintangible
requirementsforafilm,youhavetheaddedproblemofitsbeingsufficiently
differentfromthefilmsyouhavealreadydone.Obviouslythemorefilmsyou
make,themorethischoiceisnarroweddown.Ifyoureadastorywhichsomeone
elsehaswrittenyouhavetheirreplacableexperienceofreadingitforthefirst
time.Thisissomethingwhichyouobviouslycannothaveifyouwriteanoriginal
story.Readingsomeoneelse'sstoryforthefirsttimeallowsyouamoreaccurate
judgementofthenarrativeandhelpsyoutobemoreobjectivethanyoumight
otherwisebewithanoriginalstory.Anotherimportantthingisthatwhileyou're
makingafilm,andyougetdeeperanddeeperintoit,youfindthatinacertain
senseyouknowlessandlessaboutit.Yougettooclosetoit.Whenyoureach
thatpoint,it'sessentialtorelyonyouroriginalfeelingsaboutthestory.Ofcourse,
atthesametime,becauseyouknowsomuchmoreaboutit,youcanalsomakea
greatmanyotherjudgementsfarbetterthanyoucouldhaveafterthefirstreading.
But,nottoputtoofineapointonit,youcanneveragainhavethatfirst,virginal
experiencewiththeplot.
Itseemsthatyouwanttoachieveabalancebetweenrationalityandirrationality,
thatforyoumanshouldacknowledgethepresenceofirrationalforcesinhim
ratherthantryingtorepressthem.
Ithinkwetendtobeabithypocriticalaboutourselves.Wefinditveryeasynotto
seeourownfaults,andIdon'tjustmeanminorfaults.Isuspecttherehavebeen
veryfewpeoplewhohavedoneseriouswrongwhohavenotrationalizedaway
whatthey'vedone,shiftingtheblametothosetheyhaveinjured.Wearecapable
ofthegreatestgoodandthegreatestevil,andtheproblemisthatweoftencan't
distinguishbetweenthemwhenitsuitsourpurpose.
FailingtounderstandthisleadstosomemisunderstandingofAClockwork
Orange.
Ihavealwaysfounditdifficulttounderstandhowanyonecoulddecidethatthe
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filmpresentedviolencesympathetically.Icanonlyexplainthisasaviewwhich
arisesfromaprejudicedassessmentofthefilm,ignoringeverythingelseinthe
storybutafewscenes.ThedistinguishedfilmdirectorLuisBunuelsuggestedthis
inawaywhenhesaidintheNewYorkTimes:'AClockworkOrangeismycurrent
favourite.Iwasverypredisposedagainstthefilm.Afterseeingit,Irealizeditisthe
onlymovieaboutwhatthemodernworldreallymeans.'AClockworkOrangehas
beenwidelyacclaimedthroughouttheworldasanimportantworkofart.Idon't
believethatanyonereallysympathizeswithAlex,andthereisabsolutelyno
evidencethatanyonedoes.Alexclasheswithsomeauthorityfiguresinthestory
whoseemasbadasheis,ifnotworseinadifferentway.Butthisdoesn'texcuse
him.Thestoryissatirical,anditisinthenatureofsatiretostatetheoppositeof
thetruthasifitwerethetruth.Isupposeyoucouldmisinterpretthefilmonthis
count,ifyouweredeterminedtodoso.
HowdoyouseethemaincharacterofJackinTheShining?
Jackcomestothehotelpsychologicallypreparedtodoitsmurderousbidding.He
doesn'thaveverymuchfurthertogoforhisangerandfrustrationtobecome
completelyuncontrollable.Heisbitterabouthisfailureasawriter.Heismarried
toawomanforwhomhehasonlycontempt.Hehateshisson.Inthehotel,atthe
mercyofitspowerfulevil,heisquicklyreadytofulfillhisdarkrole.
Soyoudon'tregardtheapparitionsasmerelyaprojectionofhismentalstate?
Forthepurposesoftellingthestory,myviewisthattheparanormalisgenuine.
Jack'smentalstateservesonlytopreparehimforthemurder,andtotemporarily
misleadtheaudience.
Andwhenthefilmhasfinished?Whatthen?
Ihopetheaudiencehashadagoodfright,hasbelievedthefilmwhiletheywere
watchingit,andretainssomesenseofit.Theballroomphotographattheveryend
suggeststhereincarnationofJack.
Youareapersonwhouseshisrationality,whoenjoysunderstandingthings,but
in2001:ASpaceOdysseyandTheShiningyoudemonstratethelimitsof
intellectualknowledge.IsthisanacknowledgementofwhatWilliamJamescalled
theunexplainedresiduesofhumanexperience?
Obviously,sciencefictionandthesupernaturalbringyouveryquicklytothelimits
ofknowledgeandrationalexplanation.Butfromadramaticpointofview,you
mustaskyourself:'Ifallofthiswereunquestionablytrue,howwoulditreally
happen?'Youcan'tgomuchfurtherthanthat.Iliketheregionsoffantasywhere
reasonisusedprimarilytoundermineincredulity.Reasoncantakeyoutothe
borderoftheseareas,butfromthereonyoucanbeguidedonlybyyour
imagination.Ithinkwestrainatthelimitsofreasonandenjoythetemporarysense
offreedomwhichwegainbysuchexercisesofourimagination.
Ofcoursethereisadangerthatsomeaudiencesmaymisunderstandwhatyou
sayandthinkthatonecandispensealtogetherwithreason,fallingintothe
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cloudedmysticismwhichiscurrentlysopopularinAmerica.
Peoplecanmisinterpretalmostanythingsothatitcoincideswithviewsthey
alreadyhold.Theytakefromartwhattheyalreadybelieve,andIwonderhow
manypeoplehaveeverhadtheirviewsaboutanythingimportantchangedbya
workofart?
Didyouhaveareligiousupbringing?
No,notatall.
YouareachessplayerandIwonderifchessplayinganditslogichaveparallels
withwhatyouaresaying?
Firstofall,eventhegreatestInternationalGrandmasters,howeverdeeplythey
analyseaposition,canseldomseetotheendofthegame.Sotheirdecision
abouteachmoveispartlybasedonintuition.Iwasaprettygoodchessplayerbut,
ofcourse,notinthatclass.BeforeIhadanythingbettertodo(makingmovies)I
playedinchesstournamentsattheMarshallandManhattanChessClubsinNew
York,andformoneyinparksandelsewhere.Amongagreatmanyotherthings
thatchessteachesyouistocontroltheinitialexcitementyoufeelwhenyousee
somethingthatlooksgood.Ittrainsyoutothinkbeforegrabbing,andtothinkjust
asobjectivelywhenyou'reintrouble.Whenyou'remakingafilmyouhaveto
makemostofyourdecisionsontherun,andthereisatendencytoalwaysshoot
fromthehip.Ittakesmoredisciplinethanyoumightimaginetothink,evenfor
thirtyseconds,inthenoisy,confusing,highpressureatmosphereofafilmset.But
afewseconds'thoughtcanoftenpreventaseriousmistakebeingmadeabout
somethingthatlooksgoodatfirstglance.Withrespecttofilms,chessismore
usefulpreventingyoufrommakingmistakesthangivingyouideas.Ideascome
spontaneouslyandthedisciplinerequiredtoevaluateandputthemtousetends
tobetherealwork.
DidyouplaychessonthesetofTheShiningasyoudidonDr.Strangelove(with
GeorgeC.Scott)andon2001?
IplayedafewgameswithTonyBurton,oneoftheactorsinthefilm.He'savery
goodchessplayer.Itwasveryneartheendofthepictureandthingshadgottento
afairlysimplestage.IplayedquitealotwithGeorgeC.Scottduringthemakingof
Dr.Strangelove.Georgeisagoodplayer,too,butifIrecallcorrectlyhedidn'twin
manygamesfromme.Thisgavemeacertainedgewithhimoneverythingelse.If
youfancyyourselfasagoodchessplayer,youhaveaninordinaterespectfor
peoplewhocanbeatyou.
Youalsousedtobeaverygoodphotographer.Howdoyouthinkthishelpedyou
asafilmmaker?
Thereisamuchquotedaphorismthatwhenadirectordieshebecomesa
photographer.It'sacleverremarkbutit'sabitglib,andusuallycomesfromthe
kindofcriticwhowillcomplainthatafilmhasbeentoobeautifullyphotographed.
Anyway,Istartedoutasaphotographer.IworkedforLookmagazinefromtheage
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ofseventeentotwentyone.Itwasamiraculousbreakformetogetthisjobafter
graduationfromhighschool.Iowealottothethenpictureeditor,HelenO'Brian,
andthemanagingeditor,JackGuenther.Thisexperiencewasinvaluabletome,
notonlybecauseIlearnedalotaboutphotography,butalsobecauseitgavemea
quickeducationinhowthingshappenedintheworld.Tohavebeena
professionalphotographerwasobviouslyagreatadvantageforme,thoughnot
everyoneIsubsequentlyworkedwiththoughtso.WhenIwasdirectingSpartacus,
RusselMetty,thecameraman,founditveryamusingthatIpickedthecameraset
upsmyselfandtoldhimwhatIwantedinthewayoflighting.Whenhewasin
particularlyhighspirits,hewouldcrouchbehindmeasIlookedthroughmy
viewfinder,holdinghisZippocigarettelighteruptohiseye,asifitwerea
viewfinder.Healsovolunteeredthatthetopdirectorsjustpointedinthedirection
oftheshot,saidsomethinglike,"Russ,atight3shot,"andwentbacktotheir
trailer.
WhatkindofphotographywereyoudoingatLook?
Thenormalkindofphotojournalism.Itwastremendousfunformeatthatagebut
eventuallyitbegantowearthin,especiallysincemyultimateambitionhadalways
beentomakemovies.ThesubjectmatterofmyLookassignmentswasgenerally
prettydumb.Iwoulddostorieslike:"IsanAthleteStrongerThanaBaby?",
photographingacollegefootballplayeremulatingthe'cute'positionsan18
montholdchildwouldgetinto.Occasionally,Ihadachancetodoaninteresting
personalitystory.OneofthesewasaboutMontgomeryClift,whowasatthestart
ofhisbrilliantcareer.Photographycertainlygavemethefirststepuptomovies.
Tomakeafilmentirelybyyourself,whichinitiallyIdid,youmaynothavetoknow
verymuchaboutanythingelse,butyoumustknowaboutphotography.
Doyouhaveapreferenceforshootinginastudioorinreallocations?
Ifthereallocationsexist,andifit'spracticalgettingyourcrewthere,itisalot
easierandcheapertoworkonlocation.Butsometimesgoingawayonlocationis
moreexpensivethanbuildingsets.Itcostsalotofmoneytodaytokeepacrew
awayfromhome.
WhydidyoudoTheKillinginastudio?
Becausethesetswerefairlycheaptobuildandthescriptletyouspendagood
chunkoftimeineachofthem.Also,atthattime,itwasmuchmoredifficulttoshoot
inlocationinteriors.Therewerenoneckmikesorradiotransmitters,andthe
cameraswerebigandthefilmslow.Thingshavechangedalotsincethen.ButI
rememberhavinganargumentatthetimewithacameramanwhorefusedto
shootascenewitha25mmlens,insistingthatthelenswastoowideangledto
panormovethecamerawithoutdistortingeverything.Today,peoplethinkofa
25mmalmostasanormallens,andawideanglelensgoesdownto9.8mm,
whichgivesyouabouta90xhorizontalviewingangle.TheShiningcouldnot
havehadthesamelightingifithadbeenfilmedonlocation,andbecauseofthe
snoweffectsitwouldhavebeenextremelyimpracticaltodoitthatway.Wewould
havebeenfartoomuchofanuisanceinarealhotel,andinthecaseofthose
whichwereshutinthewinter,theywereclosedbecausetheyreallywere
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inaccessible.
Whatkindofhorrorfilmsdidyoulike?DidyouseeRosemary'sBaby?
Itwasoneofthebestofthegenre.IlikedTheExorcisttoo.
AndJohnBoorman'sTheHeretic?
Ihaven'tseenit,butIlikehiswork.Deliveranceisanextremelygoodfilm.Oneof
thethingsthatamazesmeaboutsomedirectors(notBoorman)whohavehad
greatfinancialsuccesses,isthattheyseemeagertogiveupdirectingtobecome
filmmoguls.Ifyoucareaboutfilms,Idon'tseehowyoucouldwantsomeoneelse
todirectforyou.
Perhapstheydon'tliketheactualshooting.
It'strueshootingisn'talwaysfun.Butifyoucareaboutthefilmitdoesn'tmatter.
It'salittlelikechangingyourbaby'sdiapers.Itistruethatwhileyou'refilmingyou
arealmostalwaysinconflictwithsomeone.WoodyAllen,talkingaboutdirecting
Interiors,saidthatnomatterhowpleasantandrelaxedeverythingseemedonthe
surfacehefelthisactorsalwaysresentedbeingtoldanything.Thereareactors,
however,withwhomcommunicationandcooperationissogoodthatthework
reallybecomesexcitingandsatisfying.Ifindwritingandeditingveryenjoyable,
andalmostcompletelylackinginthiskindoftension.
Todayitismoreandmoredifficultforafilmtogetitsmoneyback.Thefilmrental
canbethreetimesthecostofthefilm.
Muchmorethanthat.Takeafilmthatcosts$10million.Todayit'snotunusualto
spend$8milliononUSAadvertising,and$4milliononinternationaladvertising.
Onabigfilm,add$2millionforreleaseprints.Saythereisa20%studio
overheadonthebudgetthat's$2millionmore.Interestonthe$10million
productioncost,currentlyat20%ayear,wouldaddanadditional$2milliona
year,say,fortwoyearsthat'sanother$4million.Soa$10millionfilmalready
costs$30million.Nowyouhavetogetitback.Let'ssayanactortakes10%ofthe
gross,andthedistributortakesaworldwideaverageofa35%distributionfee.To
roughlycalculatethebreakevenfigure,youhavetodividethe$30millionby
55%,thepercentageleftaftertheactor's10%andthe35%distributionfee.That
comesto$54millionofdistributor'sfilmrental.Soa$10millionfilmmaynotbreak
even,asfarastheproducer'sshareoftheprofitsisconcerned,until5.4timesits
negativecost.Obviouslytheactualbreakevenfigureforthedistributorislower
sinceheistakinga35%distributionfeeandhaschargedoverheads.
Butyoucametorealiseveryearlyinyourcareerthatifyoudidn'thavethecontrol
oftheproductionyoucouldn'thavetheartisticfreedom.
Thereisnodoubtthatthemorelegalcontrolyouhaveoverthings,theless
interferenceyouhave.This,initself,doesn'tguaranteeyou'regoingtogetitright,
butitgivesyouyourbestchance.Butthemorefreedomyouhavethegreateris
yourresponsibility,andthisincludesthelogisticalsideoffilmmaking.Isuppose
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youcouldmakesomekindofmilitaryanalogyhere.Napoleon,aboutwhomIstill
intendtodoafilm,personallyworkedoutthelaboriousarithmeticofthe
complicatedtimetableswhichwerenecessaryforthecoordinatedarrivalonthe
battlefieldofthedifferentelementsofhisarmy,whichsometimeswerescattered
alloverEurope.Hisgeniusonthebattlefieldmighthavebeenoflittleuseiflarge
formationsofhisarmyfailedtoarriveontheday.Ofcourse,I'mnotmakinga
seriouscomparisonbetweentheburdensandthegeniusofL'Empereurandany
filmdirector,butthepointisthatifNapoleonbelieveditwasnecessarytogotoall
thattrouble,thenacomparativeinvolvementinthelogisticalsideoffilmmaking
shouldbeanormalresponsibilityforanydirectorwhowantstoensurehegets
whathewantswhenhewantsit.Inamorefancifulvein,andperhapsstretching
theanalogyabit,IsuspectthatforNapoleon,hismilitarycampaignsprovidedhim
withatleastalloftheexcitementandsatisfactionofmakingafilmand,equallyso,
Iwouldimagineeverythinginbetweenmusthaveseemedprettydullby
comparison.OfcoursethisisnotanexplanationoftheNapoleonicwars,but
perhapsitsuggestssomepartoftheexplanationforNapoleon'sapparently
irrepressibledesireforstillonemorecampaign.Whatmustitbeliketorealizethat
youareperhapsthegreatestmilitarycommanderinhistory,havemarshalslike
Ney,Murat,Davout,thefinestarmyinEurope,andhavenoplacetogoand
nothingtodo?Then,continuingwiththisbynowoverstretchedanalogy,thereis
thebigbudgeteddisastertheRussianCampaign,inwhich,fromthestart,
Napoleonignoredtheevidencewhichsuggestedthecampaignwouldbesucha
costlydisaster.And,finally,beforehisfirstexile,afterfightingaseriesofbrilliant
battlesagainsttheAllies'superiornumbers,Napoleonstillhadafinalopportunity
forcompromise,butheovernegotiated,gambledonhismilitarymagic,andlost.
InyourscreenplayaboutNapoleon,didyouadoptachronologicalapproach?
Yes,Idid.Napoleon,himself,onceremarkedwhatagreatnovelhislifewouldbe.
I'msurehewouldhavesaid'movie'ifhehadknownaboutthem.Hisentirelifeis
thestory,anditworksperfectlywellintheorderithappened.Itwouldalsobenice
todoitasatwentyhourTVseries,butthereis,asyet,notenoughmoney
availableinTVtoproperlybudgetsuchaventure.Ofcourse,thereisthe
tremendousproblemoftheactortoplayNapoleon.AlPacinocomesquicklyto
mind.Andthereisalwaysthepossibilityofshootingthetwentyepisodesinsuch
awaythathewouldbefiftybythetimehegottoSt.Helena....
Al,I'mjoking!I'mjoking!
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