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Topic started by: Chet K on 2011-09-08, 14:35:02

Title: Serbian Professor Savic Sonic water heater replication COP 12
Post by: Chet K on 2011-09-08, 14:35:02

I couldn't attach this to a PM so I'm putting it here for ION

Hopefully much more to follow!

Chet

Title: Re: Acoustic resonance "sonic" water heater "working
replication"?
Post by: ION on 2011-09-08, 14:51:47

Lets see if I have this right:

The beer can open at one end resonates acoustically around 400
Hz.

A DC potential around 110 Volts is applied between the fixed end
of the can (Anode) and the ring (Cathode)

The water entering forces the can into acoustic resonance which is
aided by the applied voltage.

Question, is the outer jacket non-metallic?

How many GPM need to flow through the system?

How much DC power is required?

What is the difference in heating effect between this setup and an
identical chamber with non-resonant inner can?

Where is the data? i.e inlet temp, outlet temp GPM, DC applied
power?

replication"?
Post by: Chet K on 2011-09-08, 16:07:53

Thanks ION
I will ask Slovenia to join here
Asking the right questions is important
As you know the inventer is offering to help Slovenia with a
replication![actually wants him to]!

Seems like there are a lot of very good questions?

Chet

replication"?
Post by: Peterae on 2011-09-08, 16:42:01

Probably not related but just making people aware that it is
common practise to use Ultrasonic Resonance for soldering certain
metals IE Aluminium.

replication"?
Post by: Chet K on 2011-09-09, 01:11:51

HHMMM
Slovenia says the registration function of this forum is disabled??

Chet

replication"?
Post by: Chet K on 2011-09-09, 12:43:58

Slovenia asked me to post this for ION to look at
And Of course other interested parties !

Chet

replication"?
Post by: Chet K on 2011-09-09, 14:12:42

Good!

And Now lets hope your "contact" can really put us in "Hot
Water"??

What do you think about that Idea of asking him to help
"blueprint" his device [get us close anyway]?

Then we build it and run it thru an inverter?

?
Chet
PS
Gotta go make the some Mullah....................

replication"?
Post by: Slovenia on 2011-09-09, 14:13:18

I have a European contact who has provided information to me
regarding his sonic boiler. He studied Peter Davey's boiler and
came up with his own version of it which works well but looks quite
different. Anyway, up to now my contact has been trying to give
me details that will enable me to build a US version of his device.
The problem with that is that he has a working version that works
in Europe and the US power is different so important things have
to be changed to make a version work in US. I have most of the
information already but do lack the most important detail, (i.e.:
the gap between the ring and the beer can). He says that unless
the gap is correct that the device will not function properly.

I'm also going to add some stuff to my enhanced diagram.

replication"?

Welcome Slovenia good to have you here O0

EDIT
I am not sure if you are building a device, if so i can set up a work
bench thread for you, so you can post information about
construction etc.
You will find peoples work benches on the main page at the
bottom.

replication"?

That's a great idea!!

I think I can get the information we need on the European
version. I just need to go about it carefully and gently so as not to
wear out my welcome.

Quote from: ramset on 2011-09-09, 14:12:42
Good!

And Now lets hope your "contact" can really put us in "Hot Water"??

What do you think about that Idea of asking him to help "blueprint" his device
[get us close anyway]?

Then we build it and run it thru an inverter?

?
Chet

replication"?

Thank-you Peterae. It's good to be here.
Quote from: Peterae on 2011-09-09, 14:13:49
Welcome Slovenia good to have you here O0

replication"?

I haven't started to build the device yet, but if we get all the
details I do plan on building it. My contact says that he heats his
house with this device.
Quote from: Peterae on 2011-09-09, 14:13:49

I am not sure if you are building a device, if so i can set up a work bench
thread for you, so you can post information about construction etc.
You will find peoples work benches on the main page at the bottom.

replication"?

I've made some additions to my diagram so I wanted to share the
latest revised edition.

replication"?
Post by: EMdevices on 2011-09-09, 19:04:15

Peter Davey's device and this device presented here are similar,
and also have very little to do with acoustic or ultasonic heating.

The power comes from the electricity via resistive heating of the
water, V^2/R, where R is the resistance of the liquid or water. If
you use deionized water it does not work.

These types of devices are also very dangerous, if anything breaks
inside or there happens to be metal flakes or chips that break off,
they can short the gap and cause high levels of current that can
trip breakers or worse, cause fires!

If we want ultrasonic heating, than we need to incorporate an
ultrasonic transducer, like Mr. Timothy Thrap does, that amish
guy.

EM

replication"?

EM,
I am just trying to get this device replicated. More information is
still needed from my contact. As you say, devices of this type do
carry with them certain potential electrical hazards. The European
inventor of this device calls it a sonic boiler, and so I have chosen
to call it by the same name. Anyway, if we can replicate this
device I'm sure many folks here will find a use for it.
Regards,
Slovenia

replication"?
Post by: Chet K on 2011-09-09, 21:17:10

EM
AHHH ...........Sir Thrapp there's somebody I would love to Poke in
the Chest!![the antiChrist}

Oh How I would love to "PING" a globe and make hot water!!

I remember Davey pointing out another very common
"Resistive"tea kettle heater that is quite common in New Zealand
[back in the day]He said this was nothing like that?

Slovenia can you get Pics from this man?? while its working
[running]?

Davies heater made a Vortex as it ran [quite aggressive],a purely
resistive heater would form Bubbles and no Vortex.IMNSHO

Thanks
Chet

replication"?

Chet,
I just finished writing my European contact requesting all the
pertinent information regarding his working European version of
his sonic boiler. I intrigued him, so he was asking me a lot of
questions today too. It seems he is very well schooled in
electronics and HVAC. He has invented a new heater that he says
has a COP of 66.6 and he will be patenting it soon so information
on it is not available. We will wait to see if he gets back with me
regarding more information on his sonic boiler.
Regards,
David

replication"?
Post by: Paul-R on 2011-09-09, 22:02:46

Quote from: EMdevices on 2011-09-09, 19:04:15
Peter Davey's device and this device presented here are similar
Peter Daysh Davey has SEVERAL inventions and I think it is
important to remember this.

Paul-R

replication"?
Post by: Farrah Day on 2011-09-09, 22:04:03

I'm rather curious as to where the 400Hz is supposed to come
from given the diagrams show a 110V 60Hz supply. ???

Also it's hard to make head or tail of the attached pdf info as its,
well, sort of gibberish. I do know however that the 'standing wave'
mentioned makes little sense as at 400Hz and quarter wavelength
you are looking at a standing wave of around 190 km!! How does
that work then?

I did however have to smile at this bit of the pdf info:
Quote
This is the hardest part to find the frequency of standing
wave current of 60 Hertz. I can calculate that if you pay me.
C.C

replication"?
Post by: WaveWatcher on 2011-09-09, 23:10:50

Farrah Day,

The only way wavelength can be a part of this is if the inventor is
only considering acoustic velocities and/or compression waves.

Maybe we should pay up ;D

I don't see how that can help with converting 60 to 400Hz ;)

replication"?

Updated Diagram to European Mains Specs

(http://i53.tinypic.com/xqi1ys.png)

replication"?
Post by: Chet K on 2011-09-09, 23:52:44

Slovenia,
Whats the 2.1mm? How does that scale with a beer can??

I love that its a beer can!! [A serbian Hillbilly=}

Chet
PS
WOW This is what Davy's heater looks like when it runs and makes
Boo Koo Heat!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsmdSkYEp6M

From Slovenias thread Here

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/8999-peter-
daysh-davey-water-heater-query-2.html#post156032

replication"?

Hi Chet,
The 2.1 mm is supposed to be the diameter of the top of the beer
can. It seemed small to me too. That's less than an inch in
diameter. Their beer cans are either miniature; have a small top;
or there's been a typo. Anyway, hopefully I'll hear back from my
contact tomorrow.
Regards,
David

Slovenia,
Whats the 2.1mm? How does that scale with a beer can??

I love that its a beer can!! [A serbian Hillbilly=}

Chet

replication"?
Post by: Chet K on 2011-09-10, 01:31:01

Thanks Slovenia,
Did you see the text from this Vid


HOLY COW...............

Text,

Uploaded by THEWATERENERGY1 on Jul 18, 2011

HEAT / STEAM RESONATOR (ELEMENT) STAN MEYER STYL
....CIRCUIT TEST
90VDC / 1000MA ...AT 1.2 KHz

WE ARE TESTING THIS ELEMENT FOR THE HOME HEATING
BOILER.....HEATUP 1LITER WATER FORM 15C TO 90C CELSIUS IN
JUST 1 SEC ....THAT IS FASTER THAN A MAGNETRON......ELEMENT
IN THIS TEST IS 3XXX 3#INCH....WE US A NEW CIRCUIT FOR
THIS TEST

WHAT WE DOING IS TESTING A CIRCUIT AT SEVERALS FREQENCY
AND VOLTAGE,,
IN ORDER TO FIND OUT WHAT THE EXACT COMBINATION IS TO
FIND RESONANCE IN THE WATER AND HEAT IT VERY QUIKLY,AT
THE RIGHT RESONANCE IN THE CIRCUIT,AT THE LOWEST AMP /
CANCEL OUT THE AMP.....

THE REASONS WHY WE NEED A HEAT RESONATOR IS, TO
DEFROST THE
YOUR WATERFEULTANK IN THE WINTER, INCASE THE
WATERFEULTANK IS FROZEN.
AND WE WILL US THE HEATRESONATOR IN A HOMEHEATING
BOILER TO HEAT UP THE WATER AND PUMP THE WATER A ROND
YOUR HOUSE SO
WE HAVE A WARM HOUSE IN THE WINTER FOR LAST ENERGY AND
EMISSIONS....IN EUROPE WE US A LOT PROPANE AT THIS
TIME....TO WARMUP YOUR HOUSES

IN THE FUTURE WE WILL POST MORE INFORMATION AND THE
SYSTEM AT WORK.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

IMNSHO
This info validates several O.U water heating devices,If its true??

Chet

replication"?

Very cool stuff Chet!!

replication"?
Post by: exnihiloest on 2011-09-10, 10:15:05

...
HEAT / STEAM RESONATOR (ELEMENT) STAN MEYER STYL ....CIRCUIT TEST
90VDC / 1000MA ...AT 1.2 KHz

WE ARE TESTING THIS ELEMENT FOR THE HOME HEATING BOILER.....HEATUP
1LITER WATER FORM 15C TO 90C CELSIUS IN JUST 1 SEC ....THAT IS FASTER
THAN A MAGNETRON......ELEMENT IN THIS TEST IS 3XXX 3#INCH....WE US A
NEW CIRCUIT FOR THIS TEST
...

Sure it is "faster than a magnetron". A common magnetron is in
the range 1->2 Kw. Heating up 1l water from 15C to 90C in 1
second needs 313Kw!

Some thoughts:

The speed of sound in water is around 1500m/s. At 1.2 kHz, the
wavelength is: 1500/1200 = 1.25m. We are far from the
dimension of the device, so we can consider that there is no
stationary waves in water, therefore no pressure gradient in the
volume.

Then I wondered if the phenomenon could come from a supersonic
speed in water of the vibrating material. Suppose that the
displacement of the vibrating material is +/- 1mm, which is an
overestimated value. During 1/2 period of the 1.2 Khz current, le
material moves from -1mm to +1mm relative to its equilibrium
position. It travels 2 mm in 1/2*T. Its speed is: 2*10
-3
/(1/2 *
1/1200)=4.8 m/s. We are very far from a supersonic speed, even
though it is a mean speed and the peak speed is more.

So the only involved phenomenon that I can see for the moment,
is a simple time varying pressure in water, the pressure at each
instant being uniform in the volume.

replication"?
Post by: Chet K on 2011-09-10, 13:32:00

Exnihiloest
Sir
This seems like science fiction to me...........
Somehow I don't think it is ,These boys that made this movie are
playing with a drive circuit they claim was reverse engineered from
Stan Meyer " 8XA" or something?

Another man came to OU . com the other day posting a Vid with
this 8XA circuit ,I believe he said TONYWOODSIDE was the
engineer.

I would love it if Farrah would weigh in on the above [Cringe]

Thank you
Chet
EDIT 8XA TONYWOODSIDE

replication"?

I heard back from my contact on the sonic boiler. I had asked for
the specs for his European version sonic boiler so we could
replicate it. I know that he told me early in our correspondence
that the beer can had to be tuned to 50 Hz for Europe and 60 Hz
for USA. Anyway, The following sentence is his response to me:

1.725mm electrode distance is 60 Hz. 300 Hz and the
negative electrode has to play the sonic boiler.

So, I don't know whether he did the math for the USA version here
or not. He says 60 Hz in his statement, so this (1.725mm) may be
the gap for our US version. He doesn't waste time with a lot of
words. I was very precise in my request.

replication"?
Post by: Chet K on 2011-09-10, 14:15:42

Slovenia
Of course this raises more questions,and yes your man sounds like
he could be getting Peeved!!

This happens all to easy sometimes [the Peeved part].

-----------
In the Mean Time
We do have something very interesting going on with this Movie
MonsieurM posted at Energetic.

{ a repost} http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsmdSkYEp6M

Something is Up with this 8XA TONYWOODSIDE circuit?? [sudden
Notoriety many places]

I like what Exnihiloest Posted above and his "Pressure everywhere"
analysis! {Makes Me Think "WiTTS"]

I will try to collect more info ?
Chet
PS
MonsieurM also posted this Movie

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzS2qhZPZfo&feature=related
[Hendershot and Hubbard ]
From Here http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-
energy/8999-peter-daysh-davey-water-heater-query-
2.html#post156160

EDIT 8XA TONYWOODSIDE

replication"?

I think he's starting to get frustrated with all the questions. This
guy is a well educated; high level; non English speaking person. I
am lucky he corresponded back to me in the first place. In the
USA, a man of this guy's stature would not have returned my e-
mails. I don't want to give his identity away, but he's not your
average Joe.
Slovenia
Of course this raises more questions,and yes your man sounds like he could be
getting Peeved!!

This happens all to easy sometimes [the Peeved part].

replication"?

New Message from Contact: (Re: Sonic Boiler Scenario)

Sonic boiler are trying to make a 110 Volt 60 Hertz has a
COP = 6.93 when upgraded water at 80 degrees Celsius for
central heating. It works better than the best air
conditioners can be purchased with money in the USA.

Do not raise the voltage above 110 volts, you do not burn
out a fuse on the pole. If you set the way as I explained
vamnacrtao and will work well on 110 Volts 60 Hertz in the
USA in Europe will not work.

Attn.: Does anyone know what vamnacrtao means in either
Russian or Serbian? Google translate couldn't translate it for me.

P.S.: So, it would appear that my contact did the math for free for
our USA 110 volts. I only asked for his European version, so that's
what I expected him to share with me. So, I will change my
diagram again to fit USA 110 volts.

replication"?
Post by: Mookie on 2011-09-10, 20:29:15

If you set the way as I explained vamnacrtao and will work well on
110 Volts 60 Hertz in the USA in Europe will not work.

If you set the way as I explained to you in the drawing and will
work well on 110 Volts 60 Hertz in the USA in Europe will not
work.

replication"?

Thanks very much Mookie!!

Quote from: Mookie on 2011-09-10, 20:29:15

If you set the way as I explained vamnacrtao and will work well on 110 Volts
60 Hertz in the USA in Europe will not work.

If you set the way as I explained to you in the drawing and will work well on
110 Volts 60 Hertz in the USA in Europe will not work.

replication"?

Sept. 10, 2011 Latest Upgraded Sonic Boiler Diagram: (For USA
Only)

(http://i56.tinypic.com/2z6i2rl.jpg)

replication"?
Post by: ION on 2011-09-10, 22:17:45

You have to make up your mind is it DC or AC?

If it is powered from the AC mains directly there can be no Anode
or Cathode. The first drawing showed a + and - so I called them
Anode and Cathode.

Then it was DC at 1.2 kHz ??????

Now it is back to 60 Hz mains power. Whats up with that?

A clearly written engineering style spec along with the drawing
would dispel a lot of confusion e.g:

Applied Voltage:
Applied Current: (disregard if self limited)
Applied Frequency:
Expected Power Usage: (Watts)
Can Resonant Frequency:
Ring Resonant Frequency:
Length of Can (mm):
Diameter of Can (mm):
Diameter of Ring: (mm):
Gap between innermost part of ring to can (mm):
Size of outer vessel (L, W, D mm)
Material of outer vessel:
Size of inlet and outlet ports:
Flow rate: (L / min or Gal / min)
Transport medium or working fluid:
Temperature of inlet medium:
Temperature of outlet medium:

etc

replication"?

Quote from: Slovenia on 2011-09-10, 20:04:42
Attn.: Does anyone know what vamnacrtao means in either Russian or
Serbian? Google translate couldn't translate it for me.

'vam nacrtao' is rooted from the tokavian dialects meaning
something like 'you drew' or 'you have drawn'.

Without seeing his full text I can only say he is using words which
are common in Croatia, Serbia and surrounding areas, not Russian
or Georgian.

replication"?

ION,

Nice to hear from you. I'm just the messenger boy. I know
absolutely nothing about electricity. I do know that the sonic
boiler operates directly off the main current of 110 volts. My
contact said that the ring was the negative electrode.

As for being provided with an engineering spec sheet by my
contact, that will not happen. It will be up to me and maybe you
to organize the facts we have been given into the best information
sheet we can put together. I have started a pdf file, but it is still a
bit rough because my contact does not speak a word of English.

Regards,
Slovenia
Quote from: ION on 2011-09-10, 22:17:45
You have to make up your mind is it DC or AC?

If it is powered from the AC mains directly there can be no Anode or Cathode.
The first drawing showed a + and - so I called them Anode and Cathode.

Then it was DC at 1.2 kHz ??????

Now it is back to 60 Hz mains power. Whats up with that?

A clearly written engineering style spec along with the drawing would dispel a
lot of confusion e.g:

Applied Voltage:
Applied Current: (disregard if self limited)
Applied Frequency:
Expected Power Usage: (Watts)
Can Resonant Frequency:
Ring Resonant Frequency:
Length of Can (mm):
Diameter of Can (mm):
Diameter of Ring: (mm):
Gap between innermost part of ring to can (mm):
Size of outer vessel (L, W, D mm)
Material of outer vessel:
Size of inlet and outlet ports:
Flow rate: (L / min or Gal / min)
Transport medium or working fluid:
Temperature of inlet medium:
Temperature of outlet medium:

etc

replication"?
Post by: Chet K on 2011-09-11, 00:53:25

Slovenia
Tell you what I'm gonna do
Tommorrow I am going to Thro this together
I'll post a pic for you to send to him?

Then all this Plus and minus stuff will get figured and maybe this
whole thing will come into focus?

Obviously it won't be built to any specs ,because as ION points out
we don't have any.

Chet

replication"?
Post by: ION on 2011-09-11, 01:09:02

Hi Chet and Slovenia

I probably should not even be butting into this thread, I'm just
trying ask the questions to get the data organized in order to
dispel confusion.

I'm sure you guys will get a build spec together that is clear,
concise and contains all the pertinent data.

Best of luck and Kind Regards

replication"?
Post by: Chet K on 2011-09-11, 01:35:08

ION
Your but is very welcome in this thread!!

And any one else that wants to see a Polish Barbeque PFHHIT
sizzle...............

Thanks
Chet
PS
BTW
The fellows from this Movie


Responded today
Quote:

@ramset1 WE STILL TESTING THE CIRCUIT, WITH GREAT
RESULTS

WE DONT LIKE TO GIVE WRONG INFORMATIONS ,AS SOON WE
READY WILL

WILL KEEP YOU INFORM

THANKS.....
THEWATERENERGY1 3 hours

replication"?

Hi Chet,

I just heard back from my contact and he said I had enough
information. He didn't answer any more of my questions. So, it
would appear that he's either waiting to see a pic of my build or
he's done with me. I think he'll continue to share if I show him a
pic of a device we're trying to put together. I was messing around
with an aluminum can this afternoon. They are a real pain to work
with. I was playing with a fat American pop can but it was a
chore. Anyway, I am very interested in this device and want one
for my collection. I want to heat a water bath with one of these
babies. I will have to add some accessories to it to get it to work
for me.

Thanks ION for having a look at the sonic boiler. I think that it's
the real deal but there is a language barrier and I'm not an
electrical guy. Thanks for your recommendations!! Much
appreciated. I did not mean to be short. I have always been a
team player.

Regards,
Slovenia
Slovenia
Tell you what I'm gonna do
Tommorrow I am going to Thro this together
I'll post a pic for you to send to him?

Then all this Plus and minus stuff will get figured and maybe this whole thing
will come into focus?

Obviously it won't be built to any specs ,because as ION points out we don't
have any.

Chet

replication"?

That 1.725mm gap my contact gave me is less than 1/16". So,
that's going to be fun.

replication"?

Last Communication from Contact:
Sept 10, 2011
Great you understand and draw a picture. That should be
done

He is done helping us for now.

replication"?

...
Thanks ION for having a look at the sonic boiler. I think that it's the real deal
but there is a language barrier and I'm not an electrical guy.
...

The schematics also is a barrier. I share ION's perplexity. It is
question of 60 hz, of 300hz, of 1.2 Khz elsewhere. It is question of
"cathode" when we see only AC sources. It is question of "sonic"
when we don't even know where the sound comes from. There is a
gap of "1.725mm" implying that the beer can must be positioned
with a 1 accuracy, what is not compatible with the material (not
even measurable). And so on...

All the stuff is completely inconsistent, it is impossible to analyse
anything. For the moment, this "sonic heater" appears to me as a
real joke.

replication"?
Post by: Chet K on 2011-09-11, 12:45:48

EX
That tolerance will be maintained with a piece of Mica or other
appropriate shim stock.

Who knows ?
Its easy enough to play with!

I heard a song a few years back in the NYC area,it was more like a
Ballad on how to have a better life.
One of the suggestions was "do something everyday that scares
you"

This will Do...............
And if I get lucky maybe a little Free Electro shock therapy?

Chet

replication"?

Contact Shared Again:
Sept. 11, 2011
What you supply area of the apartment, you calculate the
width and thickness of the electrode, zero reba to resonate
at 300 Hz. Fuse will die if you are using electricity for over
15 Amperes

This latest information was necessary and helpful.

replication"?
Post by: ION on 2011-09-11, 13:13:28

Contact Shared Again:
Sept. 11, 2011
What you supply area of the apartment, you calculate the width and
thickness of the electrode, zero reba to resonate at 300 Hz. Fuse will
die if you are using electricity for over 15 Amperes

This latest information was necessary and helpful.

"Fuse will die if you are using electricity for over 15 Amperes"

If the implication is that the device uses up to 15 Amperes, then
you will certainly get a lot of water heating with 1650 Watts input.
There would be a steam explosion if sufficient flow was not
maintained.

Where is the proof of excess energy? or is this a poor man's way of
making an ordinary water heater without immersion elements?

replication"?
Post by: Chet K on 2011-09-11, 13:33:52

ION
Oddly to me he seems to be implying that we stay under
15amps??

If the input were 1650
his Cop 6.? would put output at close to 10,000 watts

Who knows?...........
we;ll see in the next few days .

Chet

replication"?

I also understood my contact's statement to say that we could not
exceed 15 Amperes or we would blow a fuse.

replication"?

ION
Oddly to me he seems to be implying that we stay under 15amps??

If the input were 1650
his Cop 6.? would put output at close to 10,000 watts

Who knows?...........
we;ll see in the next few days .

Chet

For rising up 1kg water from 15C to 90C in 1s, you need 313
KW. This rules out a Cop 6.

replication"?
Post by: MileHigh on 2011-09-11, 14:47:56

Quote
For rising up 1kg water from 15C to 90C in 1s, you need 313 KW. This rules
out a Cop 6.

Indeed. 4.19 Joules equals one Calorie of heat. I think I learned
that in grade 10 Chemistry in 1973.

I am not really following this thread but it appears that two
members here are "channeling" comments and responses from the
YouTube "Waterenergy1" dude.

It reminds me of the "experimenters" that talk about their systems
outputting 10, 20 or 50 kilowatts of power with no sign of a load
that actually demonstrates that kind of power output. I would not
want to be in the same room as a 50-kilowatt load, even if it was
just for a one-second test.

Just think, with a "magic" system that outputs 313 kilowatts of
equivalent power you are just a fraction of a second away from the
90C water becoming an explosive blast of 100C steam. He must
have really good reflexes for his on/off switch.

He should get a contract with Con Edison in New York City for
doing commercial steam production.

replication"?

2.1mm Scenario (Shared in Early Correspondence)

I think this 2.1mm measurement is the distance from the tip of the
open ended can back to the ring around the can. I think our
contact is telling us that our negative ring electrode has to be back
from the open face of the can 2.1mm. This has to be what he is
saying. So, the ring would have to be around the top of the can as
shown in his diagram and we still have the problem of trying to
keep the can from touching the ring. Mica is sounding better all
the time.

(http://i51.tinypic.com/w01fnb.jpg)

replication"?
Post by: Chet K on 2011-09-11, 15:11:16

Exnihiloest
Appologies
Two different Devices
the PDF that Slovenia is composing from "scratch" is from an
Engineer in Serbia![COP 6+]

The Vid of the very high heating elements 1 sec etc............ is
from another group that has been working with acoustic resonance
and heating water [as per their movie]

They returned my Email yesterday promising to share more
shortly!

Sorry for this Mixup

Chet
PS
Yes MH its freakin amazing if true ?
And I completely believe its possible [of course=}]

replication"?

I just added a pick about Chet's last post which illustrates what I
meant about the 2.1mm scenario.

replication"?

Screw Clamp

A screw clamp might make a good expedient ring to get started
with. At least it would be an expedient method of finding the
inside diameter for our ring.

replication"?
Post by: Chet K on 2011-09-11, 19:26:17

Slovenia
this post from Core at energetic shines this in the Acoustic
resonance light !!

I am liking this a lot more!!!

Quote,

According to your contact a beer can is not the only thing you can
use. One only requirement appears to be that the metal
fundamental resonate frequency of 60Hz or 50Hz. To get this the
cylinder has to be honed/sanded until it rings.
This can be checked by mounting your cylinder on a rod next to a
speaker that is sounding a 60Hz frequency. According to him if a
nail is suspended very close to the open end it will ring when the
can vibrates. The nail acts like an amplifier.

So step one, and the most important, is that the cylinder
regardless of material used is 'tuned' to your line frequency. If this
step is not completed everything else is a wash.

-Core

------------------------
More on the cathode ring......
@Sovenia
We wrap the finished [tuned]can in the proper shim ,coating both
with a release agent [no stick]
Then we wrap our Ring around ,then surround the ring with
dialectric epoxy ?

Slide it off when cured we fuss with the epoxy annulus so it
maintains the space plus allows water flow.
Yeah its tricky but its cool [preferably Hot]

Tuning I believe will be done by sanding the end till the ring??

Chet

replication"?

Chet,

I think you are right on it!! Yes, if we don't get the can to
resonate properly the whole endeavor is a waste of time.

Regards,
Slovenia

Slovenia
this post from Core at energetic shines this in the Acoustic resonance light !!

I am liking this a lot more!!!

Quote,

According to your contact a beer can is not the only thing you can use. One
only requirement appears to be that the metal fundamental resonate frequency
of 60Hz or 50Hz. To get this the cylinder has to be honed/sanded until it rings.
This can be checked by mounting your cylinder on a rod next to a speaker that
is sounding a 60Hz frequency. According to him if a nail is suspended very
close to the open end it will ring when the can vibrates. The nail acts like an
amplifier.

So step one, and the most important, is that the cylinder regardless of material
used is 'tuned' to your line frequency. If this step is not completed everything
else is a wash.

-Core

------------------------
More on the cathode ring......
@Sovenia
We wrap the finished [tuned]can in the proper shim ,coating both with a
release agent [no stick]
Then we wrap our Ring around ,then surround the ring with dialectric epoxy ?

Slide it off when cured we fuss with the epoxy annulus so it maintains the
space plus allows water flow.
Yeah its tricky but its cool [preferably Hot]

Tuning I believe will be done by sanding the end till the ring??

Chet

replication"?

Quote
I think you are right on it!! Yes, if we don't get the can to resonate properly
the whole endeavor is a waste of time.

You guys are amazing and I guess this fantasy about resonance
will never die. Resonance is nothing more than the temporary
storage of energy that circulates back and forth between two
storage elements. It doesn't create energy and never will create
energy out of nothing. Just look at the recent Romerouk example,
and you can connect the dots all the way back right to the
beginnings of the online free energy forums. No project that has
had the same resonance fantasy has ever produced excess energy.

Plus as was indicated earlier in the thread by others, the YouTube
guy is not credible and he presents silly data that makes no sense.

This is also a dangerous endeavour, playing with water and mains
power. Stay safe.

MileHigh

replication"?

As per usual Chet you seem to be getting over-excited about
something that seems to have little substance and as yet no
grounding in reality.

As someone already pointed out, why in the diagram are anodes
and cathodes (+ & -) depicted when it is supposedly driven from
an AC source?

And can someone please tell me where the 300Hz or 400Hz
comes from... what's that all about? Clearly there's a serious lack
of good, reliable information and a total lack of data on this, which
tends to always be the case when someone is leading the gullible
down the proverbial garden path. This reeks of nonsense to me...
it hasn't come from IST, has it?

And let's just be honest for a moment Chet, that Youtube vid
you're raving about could be absolutely anything, including an
electrolyser firing up... it's meaningless rubbish! No data, no cct,
diddly-squat!

I agree with MH, as simple as this is, it has the potential to be
lethal if not constructed with care and precision. :'(

replication"?
Post by: Chet K on 2011-09-11, 23:28:20

Farrah
Can't argue to much with you or MH ! [still gonna play with it]

Tonywoodside 8xA circuit
have you seen anything credible?

Claims

....CIRCUIT TEST
90VDC / 1000MA ...AT 1.2 KHz

THIS TEST

Thanks
Chet

replication"?
Post by: muDped on 2011-09-12, 05:29:14

This device is reminiscent of a room humidifier
which I purchased in 1965. It was a glass jar with
a screw on bakelite lid which supported two
stainless steel electrodes spaced about 1 inch
apart which extended down into the jar vertically.

The jar was filled about 70% with tap water, lid
screwed on to immerse electrodes, then plugged
into the AC outlet. 100/120 Volts AC was applied
directly to the two electrodes which resulted in
a small amount of current flow through the tap water.

After about 20 minutes the water was hot enough to
begin boiling and steam/water vapor would exit the
jar through a vent in the lid into the room to humidify
it in the dry winter months. At the time I was in Honshu,
Japan where the power was 100 Volts/50 Hz. The device
also worked well in Kyushu, Japan with 100 Volts/60 Hz.

After weeks of use the stainless steel plates would become
coated with minerals from the water and would have to
be scrubbed clean to restore normal operation. It consumed
little power and worked quite well but did have certain
potential hazards. I doubt whether the device is available
anywhere nowadays. I still have one but haven't used it in
years.

replication"?

Quote from: MileHigh on 2011-09-11, 21:15:49
...
Resonance is nothing more than the temporary storage of energy that
circulates back and forth between two storage elements. It doesn't create
energy and never will create energy out of nothing.
...

I don't agree, it does create energy. "Resonance" is a magic word,
like "scalar wave", "hocus pocus", "lenz-less" or "abracadabra".
You can build any device of whatever kind, then you say out loud
"resonance! resonance! resonance!" while skipping around and
invoking Tesla's spirit, and free energy appears! :D ;D

replication"?
Post by: wings on 2011-09-12, 09:34:02

"After being constructed, the Davey's telekinetic heater must be
"tuned" in two different manners. The first tuning depends on
providing the hemispherical bowl (1) with such frequency of the
own oscillations, that makes this bowl to resonate acoustically
when a sound of the frequency 50 Hertz is emitted nearby. The
second tuning of the heater depends on appropriate selecting the
distance "L" between both bowls (1) and (2). On this distance
depends the formation of the standing wave between both bowls.
Thus it decides about the energy efficiency of the entire heater."

http://www.rexresearch.com/davey/davey.htm

http://www.totalizm.nazwa.pl/boiler.htm

replication"?

In the Davey's device, it is not clear why the heating is attributed
to the sound.
There are two electrodes immersed in water. Ordinary water is a
resistive conductor. Therefore current flows through the water and
can heat it. This is the simplest explanation following from
Okkham's razor, because we have no evidence of a real effect
from the sound.

replication"?

Quote
The second tuning of the heater depends on appropriate selecting the distance
"L" between both bowls (1) and (2). On this distance depends the formation of
the standing wave between both bowls. Thus it decides about the energy
efficiency of the entire heater."

A quarter standing wave of 50 or 60Hz is over a million, yes, ONE
MILLION, metres in length... how far are these bowls apart???
C.C

Clearly if there is any truth in this thing actually working then
resistive heating, possibly along with a little cavitation - if the beer
can actually vibrates - would seem to make more sense.

replication"?

Quote from: Farrah Day on 2011-09-12, 11:13:20
A quarter standing wave of 50 or 60Hz is over a million, yes, ONE MILLION,
metres in length...
...

Only for EM waves at speed c, not for sound waves in water.
The general formula is: L=v/F, L= wave length, F: frequency, v:
speed of the wave in the medium (For sound waves in water,
v=1450m/s. For EM waves, v=c=3*10
8
m/s)

The quater wave of a 50 hz sound wave in water is: 1/4*1450/50
=7.25 mtr. In any case, it is much larger than the dimension of
the device, therefore there is no standing wave at this frequency.

If we consider a quater standing wave along a beer can of length
around 15cm, the frequency should be: F=v/(4*0.15)=2417 Hz.

If we consider a standing wave in the 2.1mm gap, it will be a half-
wave because there is no open end, so the frequency should be
F=v/(2*2.1*10
-3
)=345Khz.

replication"?

Right you are EXN, I'd neglected to consider that we are not
talking about EM wavelengths. :-[

replication"?
Post by: Chet K on 2011-09-12, 18:10:53

Farrah
HHO tech is your passion ,I know you feel Meyer was dubious
,however you seem to be witholding comment on this
{very unusual for you] .

TONYWOODSIDE 8XA Circuit

Now I see its for sale on Ebay

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Stanley-Meyer-8XA-Circuit-HHO-
Generator-/160607306490
Under the Mans own name and 100% pos feedback??

The Vid I reposted from energetic of the Wild Temp Claims ,I
believe they are using this 8XA circuit?


H

Text,

Uploaded by THEWATERENERGY1 on Jul 18, 2011

....CIRCUIT TEST
90VDC / 1000MA ...AT 1.2 KHz

THIS TEST

WHAT WE DOING IS TESTING A CIRCUIT AT SEVERALS FREQENCY
AND VOLTAGE,,
IN ORDER TO FIND OUT WHAT THE EXACT COMBINATION IS TO
FIND RESONANCE IN THE WATER AND HEAT IT VERY QUIKLY,AT
THE RIGHT RESONANCE IN THE CIRCUIT,AT THE LOWEST AMP /
CANCEL OUT THE AMP.....

THE REASONS WHY WE NEED A HEAT RESONATOR IS, TO
DEFROST THE
YOUR WATERFEULTANK IN THE WINTER, INCASE THE
WATERFEULTANK IS FROZEN.
AND WE WILL US THE HEATRESONATOR IN A HOMEHEATING
BOILER TO HEAT UP THE WATER AND PUMP THE WATER A ROND
YOUR HOUSE SO
WE HAVE A WARM HOUSE IN THE WINTER FOR LAST ENERGY AND
EMISSIONS....IN EUROPE WE US A LOT PROPANE AT THIS
TIME....TO WARMUP YOUR HOUSES

IN THE FUTURE WE WILL POST MORE INFORMATION AND THE
SYSTEM AT WORK.

-------------------------------

Just asking??
[for a comment]

replication"?
Post by: giantkiller on 2011-09-12, 18:41:23

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Stanley-Meyer-8XA-Circuit-HHO-
Generator-/160607306490 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Stanley-
Meyer-8XA-Circuit-HHO-Generator-/160607306490)
That is a computer generated circuit board picture. CGI!
And No returns accepted.
The website: http://www.GlobalKast.com 404
Quote
Up for auction is the Stanley Meyer 8XA Circuit. This is the circuit that Stanley
Meyer used in his Variable Plate setup. This circuit comes completely
assembled just as you see in the image above. If you have any questions feel
free to ask. Thanks, GlobalKast.com

Up for auction? There is only one?
No other listings.
Other items for sale is ZERO! with a 100% Feedback?

Sorry I can not navigate this to research. The listing is
disfunctioning.
Don't even get caught on this one.
This guy sells sports cards.

Here is a user feedback: http://myworld.ebay.com/mizumoauto/

I watched the video. He is blowing smoke, or ink into soapy water?

Git the F**k outa here, clowns.

replication"?
Post by: Chet K on 2011-09-12, 20:01:55

HHMM
I see he's over at Stevie1001's place?

http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,510.0.html

Chet

replication"?

Farrah
HHO tech is your passion ,I know you feel Meyer was dubious ,however you
seem to be witholding comment on this
{very unusual for you] .

TONYWOODSIDE 8XA Circuit

Now I see its for sale on Ebay

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Stanley-Meyer-8XA-Circuit-HHO-Generator-
/160607306490
Under the Mans own name and 100% pos feedback??

The Vid I reposted from energetic of the Wild Temp Claims ,I believe they are
using this 8XA circuit?


Nothing to say Chet. As GK says it is not even a photo of a
genuine cct board. Doesn't even say exactly what it is supposed to
do! Clearly he is trying to make a sale relying on a gullible Meyer
fanatic. Look at the other stuff he has sold - it's all just junk sales.
C.C

And that youtube video is meaningless trash, it could be anything
in anything connected to anything, with the operater doing
anything! Pointless utter bullshit.

replication"?
Post by: CompuTutor on 2011-09-17, 07:21:56

Wow, I just strolled out of this topic on another forum,
into the same topic on this forum noting near verbatimism,
and I feel like I'm (now) stuck in a hall of mirrors of sorts.

All the same answers are not being addressed
and all the obvious failure points aren't either
Gosh that makes it so hard to help at all.

Farrah's being farrah to expected high standards,
exnihiloest is on the mark with whiplash math,
Wings right there with relevant quote and links,
and dumped made me realize how old I am now
(yep dumped, had one of those too, along with the hotdog
cooker...)
and even exnihiloest's sardonic humor was met with an equal
temperment of safety.

Then at the center is slovenia trying to piece it together without
electrical knowledge,
with chet along for the ride hoping "This" one might (finally) be the
real deal.

Can't find fault with any of you really.

But, that this amused me on the last forum,
and I was relaxed enough to say so (dumb move),
almost caused me to alienate slovenia by accident.

I'll repeat the way I explained it where I just came from...

copy/paste:
Quote from: Slovenia;157510
If people think this is to funny, I'll stop wasting my time posting here!!

heheh, relax, it wasn't that specific.

It just got funny for a moment.

The analogy might be like taking a dozen puppies for a walk,
you all start out in the same general direction essentially,
but at some point free-will takes over on an individual basis
and puppies take off in all kinds of unexpected directions,
and as a result the net gain isn't one step further down the
sidewalk...

That didn't happen here of course,
everyone here are straight-shooters.
But am I wrong that this actually happens
way to much on projects these days ?

replication"?
Post by: Chet K on 2011-09-18, 19:43:18

Compu
Oh that was you!!
[the new kid "peeps"]

thanks for your help [really]

And as far as the Puppy syndrome...........
Yes it happens most of the time
in this case a true "replication " will be attempted with the help of
Mr.C [the contact]

Yes Grumpy I am actually gonna build something :P

@EM
I have a few antenna questions please?

We are attempting to tune the can ,I know you have an opinion on
this device being "resistive"in nature.

However ,I have a tuning question,the inventor says hang a nail till
you get it shaking in the presence of 60hz speaker/amplfyer ,while
you sand and tune the can [I assume for mass as well as length]

If you were to humor me, I feel this device is Parabolic by design
[sort of]?,how would an antenna man use this technique to the
maximum benefit[most sensitive] for tuning purposes?

Hang the nail in front ?on the side ? a given distance ?ETC.
Any help will be appreciated.
Thanks
Chet
PS
On another note
Farrah
Tony woodside does have something special going on with high
voltage , milli amps and water/no electrolyte
I am going to try and get his # and more info

replication"?

Yes, I'm here too. That's why it looks similar. Chet brought me
over here because there are a lot of builders here.

I haven't posted here for a while for another reason though which
I won't go into.

Quote from: CompuTutor on 2011-09-17, 07:21:56
Wow, I just strolled out of this topic on another forum,
into the same topic on this forum noting near verbatimism,
and I feel like I'm (now) stuck in a hall of mirrors of sorts.

Then at the center is slovenia trying to piece it together without electrical
knowledge,
with chet along for the ride hoping "This" one might (finally) be the real deal.

Can't find fault with any of you really.

But, that this amused me on the last forum,
and I was relaxed enough to say so (dumb move),
almost caused me to alienate slovenia by accident.

I'll repeat the way I explained it where I just came from...

copy/paste:
heheh, relax, it wasn't that specific.

It just got funny for a moment.

replication"?
Post by: MasterBlaster on 2011-09-19, 12:02:24

I have a basic question that some one might have an answer.

As we all know, water is not conductive.
Addition of salt or wat ever allows water to be broken to H2O.

Exactly what is happening at atomic/molecular level to allow
break down of water to occur in the presence of
say KOH or NaCl? and electric current?

replication"?
Post by: Paul-R on 2011-09-19, 16:30:15

A quarter standing wave of 50 or 60Hz is over a million, yes, ONE MILLION,
metres in length...
The wavelenth of a 50hz signal is about 23 feet, 700 cm.
Will not half a wavelength get a standing wave going?

See this handy table here:
http://www.phy.mtu.edu/~suits/notefreqs.html

replication"?
Post by: e2matrix on 2011-09-19, 18:44:05

Quote from: Paul-R on 2011-09-19, 16:30:15
The wavelenth of a 50hz signal is about 23 feet, 700 cm.
Will not half a wavelength get a standing wave going?

See this handy table here:
http://www.phy.mtu.edu/~suits/notefreqs.html

You must be thinking 50 Megahertz. A 50 Hertz wavelength is
600000 meters or 3728.227152 miles. I don't know what they
are talking about at your link above but it's music related. A full
wavelength of 50 Hz is no where near what they list and is what I
posted here.

replication"?
Post by: Paul-R on 2011-09-19, 22:36:17

Quote from: e2matrix on 2011-09-19, 18:44:05
You must be thinking 50 Megahertz. A 50 Hertz wavelength is 600000 meters
or 3728.227152 miles. I don't know what they are talking about at your link
above but it's music related. A full wavelength of 50 Hz is no where near what
they list and is what I posted here.
I think we have our wires crossed here.

I am talking about acoustic waves in air, not electromagnetic
waves.

replication"?
Post by: e2matrix on 2011-09-20, 17:04:07

Sorry, That's what I get for jumping in on the end of a thread
without reading the whole thing. Guess I didn't even read the
thread title ???

replication"?
Post by: Chet K on 2011-09-21, 09:44:49

Ematrix
Perhaps a HUGE observation on your part?
Thank you
Chet

replication"?

I'm sorry,
but I hold my ground on the fact that even though your contact
says
to sand the thickness of the can, he/she is blatently wrong on that.

Trimming by length on an ubber-thin vessal like a "Tin" can
meets ALL of the tuning criteria for a cylindrical item like this can.

In fact it is preferential to modifying thickness
(as opposed to the sanding of a thick solid body "bell", AKA Davey
Heater).

But if I am right,
I'm pointing out a flaw overseen.

When you sand a painted can you expose the outer surface,
and as such expose it to the electrolytic enviroment too.

Just think of sanding exposed surfaces for an HHO
implementation.

Can it be that when your contact "Sanded" it to "tune" it,
what actually happened is he/she exposed it elecrically instead ?

And the sudeen rise in performance of his "Method" is due to this ?

All positive intentions meant !

replication"?

Look, what have you gleened from your tactfully cautious
questions to him/her about the source of the "8X" ring's
input/source ?

What is being used to produce this, and at hat levels ?

Even if you get the can "Tuned" to a harmonic of the mains,
surely this cannot work without this (additional) info, correct ?

replication"?
Post by: Paul-R on 2011-09-23, 14:43:55

Quote from: CompuTutor on 2011-09-22, 07:21:37
Trimming by length on an ubber-thin vessal like a "Tin" can
meets ALL of the tuning criteria for a cylindrical item like this can.
The frequency of a tuning fork depends on the length, but ALSO on
the
cross sectional area:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuning_fork

The thickness will have a bearing.

*** Also, we should be tuning to the mains frequency or an octave
of it, and not
a harmonic of it. Important.

replication"?

Paul-R,
you have made a statement that would be true in the most literal
of senses initially,
but you may have made a very good point for all of us in effect.

Harminics therof are used extensively in electronics,
what if you are correct for forcing the root multiple ?!

Thanks, that was hidden but yet obvious in this case.

Look,
there are knowledgeable errors in the PDF,
you admit it is a work in progress of course,
but it is a starting point and grouping of info matters.

Lets start with facts,
there are no anodes and cathodes in AC implementations,
unless there is a riding carrier on a DC bias acknowledged.

So please stop doing that first.

Next, there has been absolutely no information concerning two
things:
1 - Where are the neutral mains and L1/L2 mains connected ?

2 - Where is this second upper frequency (8X) coming from ?

There are (at least) 16 other errors,
lets deal with these two first please...

No one can reproduce this with missing info.

replication"?

Im writing a second reply to do my best to assure Slovenia
that my interests are in success of the initial concept.

What if the languge barrier is this simple,
what if the ring is a multiple of the mains,
and the can is a lower multiplicative of the mains ?

What if the thing he is telling us is that the physical "Ring"
is smaller and therefore vibrates at a higher multiplicative ?

This is assuming some major things though...

That the higher frequency of the ring is a resonance multiplicative.

?

However did simplicity prevail ?

replication"?
Post by: Chet K on 2011-09-26, 22:17:09

The language barrier has been remedied
The project is getting to the "Run" stage,

Some inspiration
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGT5PB733a0
If you have never seen this Vid Its a Must see.............

Chet

replication"?
Post by: Chet K on 2011-10-08, 23:50:46

Core has replicated the effect of Peter Davey!!
Here's your Bubbles MH................

HAH I Told you I'd Bring you Bubbles ! :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Whats that ??
Data ?
Oh Thats coming..............
Vid to follow

davey-heater-4.html#post161435

Chet

Title: Re: Core replicates Peter Davey "sonic" water heater "working
replication"10/8/11
Post by: Chet K on 2011-10-09, 01:04:03

Here it is MH

davey-heater-4.html#post161435

The Movie
http://www.youtube.com/user/core315185#p/a/u/0/Z2bxYD5gRV
Y

Whats causing this water to get so hot so fast ??
Not even "Tuned yet"
We shall see

Chet

replication"10/8/11

This appears to be another dangerous and baffling experiment.
Connect AC mains power to two bell-shaped pieces of metal, one
inserted inside the other, and watch what happens. I'm assuming
the water is being electrolyzed, those are not steam bubbles, they
are a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen gas. That's it???

There is no magic "resonance" frequency to look for, that's just the
same tired old idea. It's the hook to draw people in. Crunching
the thermal data is going to be next to impossible, and a certain
proportion of the electrical energy supplied doesn't even become
the heat that you are looking for, it's used to electrolyze the water
instead.

Chet, tell me you have the common sense to also see this, please.

Switching from 50 Hz or 60 Hz mains power to something that
runs at 480 Hz with comparable voltage levels and power levels
will be interesting. I wonder how he plans to do this, and if he will
be using some kind of off-the-shelf controller. Any amateur that
attempts to do this with some kind of home-brew offering will be
operating in some quite dangerous territory, especially since water
is involved. My advice would be to not do it because it would be a
complete waste of time. Just because somebody claims it will be
more efficient at 480 Hz doesn't mean it's true. In fact it's not
true, it's just nonsensical junk information, and dangerous
nonsensical junk information at that.

Put it this way: Demonstrate that you can actually measure the
efficiency of the pure mains-power-based system first, before you
take the plunge and up the frequency to 480 Hz. Like I said, just
doing that is extremely difficult to do, even for a seasoned
experimenter.

replication"10/8/11
Post by: Allcanadian on 2011-10-09, 08:42:52

@Milehigh
Quote
Switching from 50 Hz or 60 Hz mains power to something that runs at 480 Hz
with comparable voltage levels and power levels will be interesting. I wonder
how he plans to do this, and if he will be using some kind of off-the-shelf
controller. Any amateur that attempts to do this with some kind of home-brew
offering will be operating in some quite dangerous territory, especially since
water is involved. My advice would be to not do it because it would be a
complete waste of time. Just because somebody claims it will be more efficient
at 480 Hz doesn't mean it's true. In fact it's not true, it's just nonsensical junk
information, and dangerous nonsensical junk information at that.
Not true you say, a waste of time? and how exactly would you
know this?, you have done no experiments nor research on this
technology so I have to wonder exactly how anybody with any
credibility could make such claims. Let me put this in perspective,
we have two bell shaped surfaces which represent conductors and
a capacitor which are in motion, we have changing electric and
magnetic fields which translate through non-linear surfaces, we
have both high and low frequency fields acting on several different
mediums all of which are motional, we have what could be
considered a mobile electrolyte, we have ions in motion and we
may have multiple gasses in suspension which are also mobile and
subject to LF or HF fields. The facts, I mean the real facts, and not
pointless speculation is that there is no supercomputer on this
planet that I know of that could accurately model this system
when considering all the dynamic variables involved.
Quote
This appears to be another dangerous and baffling experiment
Experiments and real science were never for the weak of heart and
it is the persons of substance and determination who have always
paid the price of the evolution of science which most take for
granted. Science is not about sitting on a chair in front of a
computer speculating about things we know nothing about, it is
about reality, that is doing the actual experiments to determine
the actual facts for ourselves.
On a side note, my children and I do two or three actual
experiments per week together on any subject they choose. Can
you imagine that? spending quality time with your children to
teach them the real principals of science/experimentation and
debating the physics of these experiments in depth with an eight
and ten year old. Rest assured that like myself they are annoying
little people and they do not except bullshit answers without a
complete explanation which makes sense in reality, they are
relentless,lol.

Regards
AC

replication"10/8/11

It would be nice if somebody carries out an experiment and
actually measures the gasses that form. I think most of the
bubbles are water vapor due to boiling, but maybe a small % of
the gasses could be hydrogen and oxygen dissociated by the
electricity flowing though water, but I'm not sure about this since
AC is being used and the polarity changes very rapidly thus
suppressing electrolysis significantly. In fact I always wondered
how frequency effects electrolysis. All I know is that DC works
great, and AC does not work very well.

Another test that could be useful, would be to measure the amount
of heat generated directly vs indirectly by first heating up a wire
which in turn heats up the water. Will there be a difference? Is
one process more efficient? Is passing electricity directly through
water, and using it's resistance for the heating effect, any different
than passing electricity through a wire and using it to heat up the
water? I wonder, but kind of doubt it.

EM

replication"10/8/11

AC:

I think it's great that you do experiments with your kids. There
are many other distractions in this day and age.

Your argument reminds me about when I said to someone that
when they connected power up to their pulse motor that the
battery was discharging. They said, "How can you be sure? You
have to prove it."

So I guess that you have to draw a line somewhere, and my line is
in a different position from yours.

In this case if you look at the micro scale changing the excitation
frequency from 60 Hz to 480 Hz will look the same to the dancing
and prancing water molecules. Let`s assume pure sinusoidal
excitation for the purpose of this discussion. The electricity is
either going to rip the molecules apart or flow through them. If
the electricity flows through them then the dancing and prancing
gets more vigorous and the water heats up. It's reasonable to
assume that all of the different vibratory modes of the moving
water molecules on the micro scale are so much higher than the
60 Hz or 480 Hz excitation frequency such that relative to the
dancing water molecules it almost looks like pure DC. 60 Hz and
480 Hz "look the same" to the water molecules.

Often it's practical to look at relative frequencies on a logarithmic
scale. In that sense let's say that 60 Hz and 480 Hz are both
around 10^2 Hz. Let's suppose that for water molecules that
micro effects start to take place around 10^6 Hz. So 10^2 Hz
looks like near-DC to 10^6 Hz.

On the macro scale you can visualize the AC current flowing
through the entire volume of the water in the beaker. That
current flow pattern will be the same at 60 Hz or 480 Hz. One
more time relative to heating of the water or the way the current
flows through the water, the two frequencies look the same.

People are welcome to experiment if they want to, but this
experiment is an unwise one to perform. There is nothing special
with using mains power to heat and electrolyze water, and it's
quite dangerous.

MileHigh

replication"10/8/11

@All
I'm going to throw out a story which just came to mind concerning
science, one day my 10 year old daughter comes home from
school and she asks -- "What is gravity?". So I tell her it is a force,
the force of gravity, which tends to pull objects together. At which
point my daughter says-- "thats the same story my teacher told us
and she doesn't know what shes talking about either", lol. After
thinking on this a while I realized my daughter was right, it is a
story and it is so generalized that it is completely pointless as it
tells us nothing about what gravity is only what it does--- the
question was never answered. Concerning what Gravitational,
Magnetic and Electric fields are in reality there are no answers, all
the answers tell us what the fields do but never what they are
fundamentally.
As many famous scientist's have stated, sometimes we have to
look at things through the eyes of a child to see the reality of
something without all the baggage concerning what others have
told us we should see. This left me with a problem, do I tell my
daughter that this "force" of Gravity acting on objects is due to
magical virtual photons which magically pop in and out of
existence from some other magical universes? which is basically
bullshit because it has never been proven and let's be honest even
a ten year old is smart enough to know it sounds like BS. So I did
some (many years) of research and there are literally hundreds of
thousands of volumes on how gravity acts and what it does but not
one single page which tells us what gravity is fundamentally, that
is one page which does not rely on magical unproven BS. So I had
to wonder, why has everyone assumed someone must have a
logical answer?, why is nobody asking this question?. It is as if
most every adult is completely delusional/brain dead and lives in
some kind of fanasy world where they believe everything is
understood, not because it is however but only because they just
do not care to really understand anything.
In any case I have found there are many benefits to clearing one's
mind and taking a fresh unbiased perspective on things and in fact
I have had great success using this technique. I imagine this may
sound easy but I can assure you it is anything but easy because it
relies solely on the fact that a person must first let go of
everything they have learned in order to learn something new.
Regards
AC

replication"10/8/11

@milehigh
Quote
People are welcome to experiment if they want to, but this experiment is an
unwise one to perform. There is nothing special with using mains power to
heat and electrolyze water, and it's quite dangerous.
I would agree there are many dangers involved and water and any
electric current over the mA range can spell disaster with a capital
D. I apologize if I got a little cranky or implied something unpolite
with my last post, sometimes I take it for granted that people
understand the consequences of their actions and take precautions
when doing experiments.
On the issue of this device, I have been doing experiments and
research on phenomena which I believe relate directly to this
device. For instance does a direct current flow through a bubble in
water?, no it is a distinct boundary condition however an AC
current can produce a potential across it. A bubble can act as a
charge pump if a bubble is distorted, if the bubble moves, if the
source of current moves the bubble can carry a temporary surface
charge. A bubble which carries a surface charge on collapse or
distortion acts as a charge source with a variable surface area thus
a variable charge density on the surface. The point I would make
is that many things can change drastically the moment we
introduce new variables in which little or no actual research has
been done. For instance let's say I have a bubble in a fluid in
which the potential across it is changing, now we could say this
should produce no effects we could call out of the ordinary
however this is not always the case. If the rate of change of
potential produces surface charges acting through the bubble
which cause distortions, which cause oscillations independent of
the source then the bubble is a source of changing potential in
itself. As you can see the dynamics which could come into play are
mind boggling, when a silly little bubble starts acting liike an RF
transmitter then we have issues. In any case I have found the
moment any singular part of a larger group of parts starts acting
independently then all bets are off concerning what we think
should happen.
Regards
AC

replication"10/8/11
Post by: Paul-R on 2011-10-09, 14:20:50


Switching from 50 Hz or 60 Hz mains power to something that runs at 480 Hz
with comparable voltage levels
and power levels will be interesting. I wonder how he plans to do this, and if
he will be using some kind of
off-the-shelf controller.
You haven't a clue, Milehigh. Please read up on Davey first. It is
laid out in Chapter 14 of Patrick's book.

replication"10/8/11

How about a link to the book?

I looked through this thread and the Energetic Forum thread and I
think the 400 Hz or 480 Hz electrical excitation is to bring out
some form of acoustic resonance in the system.

If this is what chapter 14 in the book is all about then you are back
at square one with respect to resonance. Let's assume that there
is an acoustic resonant mode at 480 Hz or thereabouts in the bell-
bell-water-beaker system. So, will exciting the system with 120
VAC at the acoustic resonant frequency of 480 Hz do something
special?

The answer is no, it won't do anything special. It will not help
along the heat generation to reach any of the fantastic over unity
claims that Peter Davey makes.

replication"10/8/11

"Doc" from 2008:
Quote
ME feels this Myth is busted
After 4 months and $3000 I believe that I can conclude that the Davey heater
myth is busted.
Will post for results and report for all to view and comment

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/1414-daveys-
water-heater-3.html#post29999
(http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/1414-daveys-
water-heater-3.html#post29999)

His report in pdf format (which I can't see):

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/1414-daveys-
water-heater-3.html#post30123
(http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/1414-daveys-
water-heater-3.html#post30123)

Three grand spent by Doc. A conspiracy by the big-box hardware
stores? lol

replication"10/8/11

...
http://www.youtube.com/user/core315185#p/a/u/0/Z2bxYD5gRVY

Whats causing this water to get so hot so fast ??
Not even "Tuned yet"
...

Ordinary water is a conductor. With AC currents, there is almost
no electrolysis, the water acts just like a resistance between the
two electrodes. With a power more than one KW in such a small
volume of water, the water resistance heats much and the water
boils. The bubbles are water vapor, not hydrogen or oxygen.
Why should it be puzzling?

replication"10/8/11

... Let's assume that there is an acoustic resonant mode at 480 Hz or
thereabouts in the bell-bell-water-beaker system. So, will exciting the system
with 120 VAC at the acoustic resonant frequency of 480 Hz do something
special?
...

It could just evacuate the bubbles more quickly from the electrode
surfaces, enhancing the electrical contact with the water.

replication"10/8/11
Post by: Chet K on 2011-10-09, 18:08:11

Thnks All
@Mh
I attached the PDF [DOCS][,just so it is here ,Thank you!

As you know We are replicating the Beer can Thingy which we are
told is an older Tesla Device.
Well actually I'M still trying to source the exact Can ,Slovenia is
going ahead inspite just to keep his friend happy {the serbian
Inventor who's Guiding this replication ,albeit cautiously as he
has a pending patent based loosely on the concept]

Thanks for your comments
Always appreciated!!

Chet
PS
Yes Exnihiloest Resistive heat is no surprize....
The time it takes Davey to heat {instantly apparently]
that seems interesting!!

Also this Tesla replication has a claimed OU from the serbian
inventor !!

replication"10/8/11

I read the report and it was really good. It was well written and
he discussed his measurements and how he made his
calculations. It's a good model for other reports.
Quote
CONCLUSION:

Although the equipment used was not of scientific standing the aim of the
exercise was not to provide highly accurate COP readings
unless they showed exceptional values over COP+2. Although COP readings
varied from 1.05 to 0.87 these could all be between 5-10%
inaccurate due to the equipment and procedural flaws. No matter what the
frequency was, nor the gap distance the overall results or
improvements were negligible.

I felt further investigation was needed primarily to address the problem the bell
shape and material as well as the amp meter problem.
Perhaps there was a sweet spot that need to be achieved.

His results are in line what you would expect. The water acts like
a resistor, it has a certain resistance per cubic volume. The
smaller the plate separation the higher the current flow.
Quote
TUNING BELLS:

Each bell was affixed to a metal rod which allowed for easy handling against
metal sand paper affixed to a high speed hand drill. Small
amounts of the bell were sanded and checked against the SPECTRUM LAV v2.7
b20 audio software making slight and steady grindings
until a harmonic of 50Hz was achieved. If a bell had a frequency of 319Hz it
was tuned to 350Hz and a test run. Then tuned again to
400Hz and so on, until the bell had almost no size or shape left.

All bell units were tested at the starting frequencies and then after each
temperature reading they were tuned to harmonics of 50Hz
ranging between 400Hz up to 950 Hz. Due to the thickness and size/shape of
the bells the frequencies could not be tuned to higher
values.

When the bells are immersed in the water, the open-air frequency
measurements mean nothing anymore. In water, the acoustic
resonance frequencies would drop considerably. Some food for
thought.

MileHigh

replication"10/8/11
Post by: Chet K on 2011-10-09, 21:01:19

Some food for thought indeed............

I like the small valve [Drive ring} on the Tesla/serbian device for
this reason as well as the insistance that the manifold be ultra
thin!
seems like something will move in the water??

As well as The hair thin {well gorilla hair] tolerance or it won't
work at all!!

Core made another movie will post when up
Thanks for taking the time to read and comment
Chet

An evening Movie
http://www.youtube.com/user/core315185#p/a/u/0/aAhOZKGEzM
E

replication"10/8/11

From the YouTube posting:
Quote
Line voltage is 110 @ 60 Hz. This is another simple test this time with a
temperature probe. BTW nobody is claiming Free Energy. Only the Trolls are
bringing this up in an effort to discredit the technology.

As it stands there is much work to do here. This will be perfected. God bless
Peter Davey!!

Here is the perfected technology:

http://www.amazon.com/Travel-Immersion-Water-Heater-
Voltage/dp/B000AXS0UE (http://www.amazon.com/Travel-
Immersion-Water-Heater-Voltage/dp/B000AXS0UE)

(http://ecx.images-
amazon.com/images/I/4114W6SM78L._SX385_.jpg)

A good bell setup will come very very close to the efficiency of an
immersion water heater. The Peter Davey experiment is a glorified
resistor.

When looked through the pages of postings I am certain that I saw
some links to Peter Davey material that claimed over unity.

MileHigh

replication"10/8/11
Post by: Chet K on 2011-10-09, 23:23:15

Yes you did MH
I believe it went something like
"It does the same job as a resistive heater [like your pic] but at
only 5% of the current"

Cop 20 ? i think/
I suppose i will be buying one of your immersion heaters to
compare once I find my stupid European Beer Can.

@EXNIHILOEST!!

Well, that is Unless my friend Exnihiloest can scale the Gap for me
with his wicked math skills, then I will start immediately

I will post the PDF that Slovenia has made with both specs
European and domestic {50 HZ 60HZ}
The Domestic Gap Specified is dependent on our finding the same
can here in the US 65MM i believe.
NG so far

Since the Can measures 65mm and at 50hz the gap is spec at 2.1
MM the inventor did the math for the same can at 60 HZ and came
up with a gap of 1.725MM

If I get a can of Say 70mm can you do the math for the Gap EX ??
is this enough info to scale the Gap for me?
I will reward your efforts with a replication of this Tesla device??

Hopefully it will do this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsmdSkYEp6M [Read the text]

Note The 70MM is just an example

Thank you
Chet

replication"10/8/11

Quote from: exnihiloest on 2011-10-09, 16:43:29
Ordinary water is a conductor. With AC currents, there is almost no
electrolysis, the water acts just like a resistance between the two electrodes.
With a power more than one KW in such a small volume of water, the water
resistance heats much and the water boils. The bubbles are water vapor, not
hydrogen or oxygen.
Why should it be puzzling?

I too am struggling to see why people are having problems with
this. I tend to agree completely with Exn.

Somebody posted above somewhere that water is not a
conductor... what? Why do you have no ring main in a bathroom,
and why is the bathroom light switch operated by a long cord? Of
course ordinary tap water conducts! Water might not be the
greatest conductor and you won't see much happening at say 12
volts, but it will conduct fine and dandy at mains voltage -
especially over here at 240 volts!

As Exn states, this is not electrolysis, the water is simply being
heated by the current flowing between the inner and outer bells,
we are simply seeing the water being boiled. His fuse blows when
he immerses it too far into the water because, as he says, more
current flows. Why? Obviously because there is a greater surface
area in contact with the water and hence the water resistance is
reduced. Pretty elementary stuff really. C.C

replication"10/8/11
Post by: Chet K on 2011-10-10, 00:13:32

Farrah
ultra Pure water is a dielectric??

and as a matter of fact ....that will be a great test!!

well at least distilled water!!

For the Tesla device.......
Thx sweety
Chet

replication"10/8/11
Post by: PhysicsProf on 2011-10-10, 00:21:58

Back from a family trip, will be in town for a while and my home
lab is fired up...
I'm willing to try the Davey heating expt, but see conflicting
reports.

Ramset posted a PDF of results, which show COP <1 (or about
1)... not too exciting. But the details are there of "HOW TO" do a
build.
EMDevices and AC are doing experiments, which I
welcome... but are you (or anyone) seeing OU at all? if so,
how do your builds differ from the Ramset PDF? and how
are Pout and Pinput measured? it appears measuring the
current is difficult.

I have now have three Kill-o-watt meters which might serve
a function of measuring power in, at least... How to
measure power out to the accuracy needed to establish the
efficiency?

Sorry to jump in without reading the entire thread, but if
someone could fill me in on the above, would appreciate it! Like
AC and EMD, I like to do experiments!

(I like to read your posts of research involving your children, AC --
great!)

replication"10/8/11
Post by: Chet K on 2011-10-10, 02:46:40

PhysicsProf
I'd hold off a week to 10 days
We're trying a Tesla design and will have some info Soon!
Over here
daysh-davey-water-heater-query-13.html

@MH
A Stupid question
All things being equal

Time to Boil
Resistive heat Vs Wammy Jammy Heat
If Wammy Jammy goes Thrice as Fast
Would you be surprized?{could that be possible ,All things being
equal except the technique?]

Thanks
Chet

replication"10/8/1
Post by: muDped on 2011-10-10, 04:25:17

I too am struggling to see why people are having problems with this. I tend to
agree completely with Exn.

Somebody posted above somewhere that water is not a conductor... what?
Why do you have no ring main in a bathroom, and why is the bathroom light
switch operated by a long cord? Of course ordinary tap water conducts! Water
might not be the greatest conductor and you won't see much happening at say
12 volts, but it will conduct fine and dandy at mains voltage - especially over
here at 240 volts!

As Exn states, this is not electrolysis, the water is simply being heated by the
current flowing between the inner and outer bells, we are simply seeing the
water being boiled. His fuse blows when he immerses it too far into the water
because, as he says, more current flows. Why? Obviously because there is a
greater surface area in contact with the water and hence the water resistance
is reduced. Pretty elementary stuff really. C.C

Aye, it is rather elementary indeed.

When electrically conductive impure water
acts as the "resistive heating element" the
heating action is focused into the volume of
water between the electrodes.

It is possible to bring that rather small volume
of water to boiling near instantaneously with
a power input in excess of 500 Watts.

The principle was utilized in years past in small
household room humidifiers which heated water
to boiling with stainless steel electrodes immersed
in a jar of water.

A much larger version of the device is used as a
dummy load when testing AC Generators; several
hundred kilowatts of power will bring a small swimming
pool to boiling in a fairly short time.

It is perhaps the least costly and most effective kind
of dummy load for certain high power applications

The full sized commercial versions do control current
flow by raising or lowering the electrodes into the
conductive water. The similarities are striking.

replication"10/8/11

PhysicsProf
I'd hold off a week to 10 days
We're trying a Tesla design and will have some info Soon!
Over here
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/8999-peter-daysh-davey-
water-heater-query-13.html

[snip]
Thanks
Chet

Very helpful -- thanks Chet. O0

Now, could someone fill me in on the 'CRYSTAL BATTERY" that I'm
hearing about? perhaps a url for that also?
Seems to me there is a LOT of interesting research going on
right now! ;)

Steve

replication"10/8/11

Farrah
ultra Pure water is a dielectric??

and as a matter of fact ....that will be a great test!!

well at least distilled water!!

For the Tesla device.......
Thx sweety
Chet

By 'ultra-pure water' I assume that you mean water without any
contaminants, so it is just H2O, right? The problem is, that even
without contaminants, water continually self-ionises. So even
distilled water will conduct to a certain degree, and once a bottle
of distilled water is open to the atmosphere, dust and atmospheric
gases will become dissolved in it and so it becomes contaminated
very quickly.

I have experimented with de-ionised water in electrolysers and
have had it conducting to some degree - it's impossible to stop it.
Quote
It is possible to bring that rather small volume
of water to boiling near instantaneously with
a power input in excess of 500 Watts

As Dumped states here, and Exn stated above, the guy in the
video has quite a lot of power across a very small area of water.
He was blowing 10 amp fuses! Over a kilowatt of power being
dissipated into the water between the two bells. Why anyone
thinks there is anything magical or mysterious going on here
completely dumfounds me.

MH shows a picture of a heating element that drops in a cup to
heat the water. The only difference between that and this
dangerous bell experiment is that the resistance is confined to
within the element and so electrically insulated from the water, ie,
it is safe and unlikely to kill you - which can't be said for the bell.
The heating element has long superseded sticking open mains
electrodes into water - probably because of the high mortality rate.
I find it utter madness to be playing with mains voltage with
exposed terminals in a cup of water!

If this was anything to do with sonic heating, you would not
require mains voltage, and you would see results from safe
voltages.

Chet for years you have said that you were going to replicate this
that and the other, but it has never happened. I assume that this
appeals to you because of its simplicity and ease of construction
(even though you do appear to be struggling to get hold of a
simple beer can). However, given your clear lack of understanding
on these things, I feel that your posts may inexplicably and
abruptly cease if you start playing with mains voltages and water!
:'(

replication"10/8/11
Post by: Chet K on 2011-10-10, 13:12:30

Farrah
I'll be Careful ,Plus We'll see if "Cavitation and Frequency"
Changes things in Fluids? as far as "Speed to heat"

THX
Chet

replication"10/8/11

Farrah
I'll be Careful ,Plus We'll see if "Cavitation and Frequency" Changes things in
Fluids? as far as "Speed to heat"

THX
Chet

You are on the wrong - and dangerous - track here, this is simply
resistive heating, with the water acting as it's own heating
element. You are limited to the 50 - 60Hz mains frquency and
110v - 240v mains voltage, there is simply nothing to tune!! It's
all general ignorance compounded by a poor understanding of
basic science - the blind leading the blind down the alleyway of
death if you ask me!

I don't put too much faith in that Witts demo, but you will note
that he claims to be heating the water with a little PP3 9 volt
battery. If you are going to do anything, that is the route you
should be following as if his claims are true, then resistive heating
does not come into the equation. And, if sonic heating and
cavitation is your goal, you don't need mains voltages and high
current.

But I fear I'm wasting my words - perhaps you will see the light
when your damp, sweaty hand accidentally contacts an exposed
live terminal, and your missus wonders why the house lights have
suddenly gone out!

replication"10/8/11
Post by: Chet K on 2011-10-10, 15:19:39

HHHMMMMmmmmmm
Well I am going to try this,if only because the man ythat is
guideing us has it working
Perhaps its only Moving the water constantly past the resistor ?,
But you are correct I have No idea??
If It turns out it raises the water temp faster ?
Who Knows?? But we will See!

Farrah
I started life Tuning airplanes at 15, Standing on the fuselage
while the Prop Screamed inches away making adjustments and
Checking Systems![under a watchful eye}

And that was one of the Safer times of my Life..

Knowing where the Danger is makes this so very safe,these fellahs
that Transmit Frequencies of unknown strengths In
Bursts.......That scares me !!

THX
Chet

replication"10/8/11

I'll just back up Farrah's comments, the whole thing is silly and
scary and very dangerous. I try not to repeat myself in my
postings but since the "tuning" is what a lot of people believe in, I
will repeat it again, there is no tuning for this experiment.

There is just no point in looking for something that's not there.
Three years ago someone spent four months and $3000
investigating this and concluded that the whole thing was bunk.

Acoustic resonance will not magically create heat. Resonance is
just a means of storing energy supplied from somewhere else, it
doesn't create energy out of nothingness. Plus to repeat myself
again, nobody has a clue what the resonant frequencies for the
two bells are under water, or what the resonant frequency for the
overall beaker/water/bell system is. Plus I am assuming that
nobody (at least from what I am seeing so far) has a way to sweep
the high-voltage high-current electrical excitation frequency
through a frequency range anyways.

Finally, sometimes you have people whose working knowledge and
experience with electricity and electronics is at the prekindergarten
level. The last thing people like that should be doing is connecting
fixed-frequency mains power to a pair of makeshift metal bells or
beer cans and sticking them into a glass of water in search of
"resonance." It's just crazy.

MileHigh

replication"10/8/11
Post by: Chet K on 2011-10-10, 17:21:41

MH
You inspire me!!
Thank you
Chet

replication"10/8/11

Chet:

Play your "reverse-psychology inspiration" game if you want. The
facts on the ground and the cautionary warnings still apply.

When I was 20 I worked in an amusement park and the ride I was
working on had a brand new all-chrome sign with a 4-circuit
chaser light system. We soon discovered that one of the circuits
had a hot wire that was shorted to the inside of the tubular metal
sign so it was dangerous. I knew what a 120 volt AC "tingle
voltage" felt like across my dry fingertips so I thought that I would
try something similar with the chrome sign. I held a grounded
metal microphone in my hand and I slowly and gingerly went to
touch the shiny chrome tube with the tip of my middle finger.

I was expecting a light tingling-burning sensation but to my
"shock" my hand convulsed and I felt more pain for 1/10 of a
second than I had ever felt in my life. I dropped the microphone
due to the involuntary muscle contractions and the pain reflex
action. Oh my God did it hurt like hell and I was really shocked
because I was doing my best to just feel a tingle voltage and
instead I electrocuted my hand. If that went through my chest I
probably would have died.

MileHigh

replication"10/8/11

...
Yes Exnihiloest Resistive heat is no surprize....
The time it takes Davey to heat {instantly apparently]
that seems interesting!!
...

Thanks for the pdf. Therefore case closed, this conventional
experiment is in agreement with the theory.

We see rapidly bubbles due to boiling water. But at the begining
not all the water is boiling when we see the bubbles, only the small
volume between the electrodes where the current is flowing. The
water between electrodes boils almost instantly due the
tremendous electrical power for such a very small volume, and
then it heats the rest of the water.

replication"10/8/11

Look at this picture of this bozo:

(http://www.rexresearch.com/davey/peter-davey.jpg)

Supposing you put your bell setup into the water and turn on the
power. Let's pretend it's the first time you are doing this. Let's
suppose that all sorts of chemicals leech out of the bell setup,
things like coatings on the metals, etc. So the water is much more
conductive than you think.

You can see that there is a chance that water splashing over the
edge of the glass could make electrical contact with your hand. If
for whatever reason your other hand, which is holding the metal
apparatus, is in contact with the mains neutral line, then mains
power would be shorted straight through your chest which could
kill you.

MileHigh

replication"10/8/11
Post by: Chet K on 2011-10-10, 19:25:03

Yes but he lived to be like a 170 because the device Does
VOODOO to the water!!

I have the Guys from waterEnegy1 sending me more stuff I don't
understand
@Farrah Always enjoys these Movies
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0o9uT-7ASk&feature=email

They made this very wild claim recently


Chet

replication"10/8/11

Dumped:
Quote
A much larger version of the device is used as a
dummy load when testing AC Generators; several
hundred kilowatts of power will bring a small swimming
pool to boiling in a fairly short time.

It is perhaps the least costly and most effective kind
of dummy load for certain high power applications

That's very interesting and it makes perfect sense. Thanks for
that information. It relates back to big free energy claims where
people state that their system outputs 50 kilowatts but there is no
50 kilowatt load in sight. How the hell do you even set up a 50
kilowatt load in the first place?

MileHigh

replication"10/8/11

The brine loadbank brings back some memories.

50kW is nothing. I have 6.2gW of resistive load alone in the next
building :) 5300kVAR load is mixed in with those banks.

The U.S. Navy used elements on a boom lowered into the brine to
vary load during generator tests. 4160 would produce an ominous
glow after the sun went down.

I have serious doubts many OU enthusiasts have access to such
facilities even down to around 100kW.

replication"10/8/1
Post by: Paul-R on 2011-10-10, 22:35:11

How about a link to the book?
Sorry. I thought it was generally known:
http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Chapter14.pdf

Paul-R

replication"10/8/11

Chet, I assume you're taking the piss. From your youtube link
Quote
FEEL FREE TO POST YOUR COMMENT, AT SO LONG ITS CONTRUCTIFE AND
HELPFULL WE WILL POST THEM....

THANKS

Is the guy a non-English speaker or just illiterate? Or does it really
matter?

I have trouble taking anyone serious when they can't even string
together a simple sentence. Pointless video allied with utter
gibberish. Yes I love these videos. C.C

replication"10/8/1

Sorry. I thought it was generally known:
http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Chapter14.pdf

Paul-R

The Peter Davey part of the link to the book only goes to
emphasise that this really has nothing at all to do with anything
resonating at 50Hz or 300Hz, 400Hz, or whatever - just simple
resistive heating. There is also a nonsense sentence about 1.24
volts of a 220 volts ac mains doing electrolysis - absolute utter
garbage I'm afraid. Simply the scribblings of an uneducated mind.
Laughable.

replication"10/8/11

Some thoughts from across the great divide:
Quote
We are talking about acoustic tuning.

Is the idea that the electrical excitation remains 50 Hz or 60 Hz
mains power and you don't change that? You are just tuning the
bells to be a harmonic of your mains power?
Quote
I will probably keep tinkering with these cups I believe the forth octave of 60
Hz is 960. I'll try to tune a new cup to this frequency.

What is the significance of tuning your bells to the fourth octave?
What are your expectations? Don't forget that when you immerse
your tuned bells in water then they won't be tuned to 960 Hz
anymore. Plus the water is going to greatly dampen the
oscillations. Compared to the air, the water looks like quicksand
from the perspective of the potentially resonating bells.

Also, the mains power is probably a very decent to excellent sine
wave. Therefore the signal power at the fourth harmonic of the AC
mains power is going to be minuscule, all of the signal power will
be at 60 Hz. So there is almost no signal power at 960 Hz to
excite the bells anyways. Also, only a very tiny amount of the
electrical power will become vibratory mechanical power to make
the bells potentially resonate. And you can't forget that when the
bells are immersed in water they won't resonate at 960 Hz!

It sounds to me like the "acoustic tuning" is a little more
complicated than some people have considered.

If I was to do this experiment I would look for a glass container
made of very thin glass. If I couldn't find one I would make one
with very thin sheets of glass or Perspex and silicone sealant. I
am assuming that the sealant could take the high temperature. If
you can imagine a thin glass cube with one surface removed.
Then I would sit that on top of a piece of Styrofoam. That way
you only have a thin glass cube to deal with for your temperature
measurements. With the glass being thin it would take on the
temperature of the water in just a few seconds. It would be quasi
"invisible" thermally and only disturb your temperature
measurements by a very tiny bit. Plus, you could look up the
specific heat of the glass or Perspex that you are using and since
you know the dimensions of the cube you could calculate the
volume and the thermal mass of the cube itself and then factor
that into your efficiency calculations.

MileHigh

replication"10/8/11

Quote
Some thoughts from across the great divide:

Are you the knucklehead, MH... or is it me? Or are we both
knuckleheads? :)

I always find it amusing when clueless individuals try to defend
their ignorance with yet more ill-conceived science and irrational
arguments.

I had the same tuning issues with the infamous Fast Freddy.
Tuning two pipes, bells, or whatever in air hanging from a thin
cord, means little if you are then going to glue or bolt the pieces
down and submerge them in a liquid, as the whole dynamics will
have changed.

With high currents travelling through the bells and the water, is is
feasible that the magnetic fields created will interact and possibly
cause the bells to slightly oscillate at 50 - 60Hz. But this is not
resonance, has nothing to do with resonance and certainly there is
nothing to tune.

I'm baffled as to why they are simply dismissing resistive heating,
while instead looking for something more exotic. But then we see
this blinkered view time and time again. This lack of
commonsense, ready dismissal of known science and total failure
see past their own preconceptions ultimately boils down to a lack
of education and general ignorance. That said, if they're having
fun with it... well, you never know, they might actually learn
something one day. :)

replication"10/8/11
Post by: Chet K on 2011-10-11, 12:47:22

Well
Chuck chuck Yuk Yuk
Here, You two chew on this one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAllG6vUiPc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOg_JQGPGEk

I know these Idiots don't have a PreKindergarten comprehension
of Things!!
They should know you can't Loop anything??
SillY Kids!!

Oh There so Cute Though Look at all their Toys!!
Why I bet they spent all their Lunch money Huh??

But it looks like there having Fun?? And maybe YOU"LL LEARN
SOMETHING NEW

Imagine that??

From Helmut
We love yah babe
Thanks for sharing buddy

Chet
PS
And if anyone knows where I can get an 8 inch tall X2.5 inch wide
aluminum can?
I need it for my pre K kindergarden project

O0
THX

replication"10/8/11

Chet:

I don't understand German so I can't say much about the clips.
From a glance it looked like it might have been people running
engines with hydrogen gas injected into the fuel mixture.

Look, if this is all about acoustic tuning and across the divide they
want to be dismissive of the points being made here then let's
really talk about the tuning. What's the deal on the tuning? What
are you trying to achieve with the tuning and what are your
expectations?

If this ends up where you guys all try different bells and cans and
tune them in open air to a harmonic of the mains power (or an
integer multiple of the fundamental frequency) and then make
measurements well then good luck. You are going to end up
observing ordinary resistive heating effects every time.

The comment about the prekindergarten was made to dramatize
the danger aspect for these experiments. It comes from watching
a clip from someone on a "delayed Lenz' law" thread where he was
getting high voltage spikes from his coils and had no clue where
they were coming from or how they were formed and he was
almost in shock. If you have never seriously experimented with
electricity and you have no basic electronics knowledge then you
should not be doing these experiments for your own safety.

So I raised some issues about the acoustic tuning. What is the
team thinking there? Why don't you discuss these issues in more
detail with your mentor?

Even if you could power the setup with AC power at 960 Hz and
the bells were tuned to resonate at 960 Hz under water, it still
wouldn't make ay difference with respect to how fast the water
heats up. That's the reality as I see it from my comfy armchair.
Whether I experiment or not is irrelevant, it's the results of your
experiments and the thinking behind them that are relevant. Right
now it looks like the thinking is that open-air tuning of the bells to
a harmonic of the mains power frequency will make some "magic"
happen. If that's all that you've got then you aren't learning
much.

MileHigh

replication"10/8/11
Post by: Chet K on 2011-10-11, 16:04:38

MH
There are two different devices here!

Slovenia and I are replicating a device with very specific
dimensions that is alleged to be the original work of Tesla
And has a specific OU claim,
The inventor is assisting.... albeit modestly ,,as he has a patent
pending on Another device which evolved from this one.

When the data comes in from the different experiments ........We
shall see?
AC and EM devices Both proposed some possibilities
Others have also.

It is simple It will be very Cheap and inexpensive to build
And FUN

I gotta go finish some projects so I can Clear the Time to Start this
[and find a stupid 1/2 liter european Can!

Chet

replication"10/8/11

Chet, it never fails to amaze me by just how easily impressed and
excited you get by some obscure video that in reality is
meaningless. It's like someone showing a video of monkey using a
typewriter and saying that it is writing a novel... and you believing
it. Get a grip, Chet!

Clearly those guys have an ICE ticking over assumably from the
gases produced by electrolysers. Fast Freddy had a similar
demonstration - it's no big deal. This is an engine just ticking over,
with no load.

Unless you are there in person to see exactly what is occurring,
how and when and for how long - and know exactly what it is you
are looking at - these guys could be up to anything, including
being deceitful. Fast Freddy had his engine ticking over
(unloaded) for all of around 30 seconds before it ran out of steam
and stalled, and people were impressed ???. Did you notice the
big tractor battery in the video? I wonder how many more of them
there were knocking about? A high ampere/hour battery will be
able to run an ICE on the gases from and electrolyser for a given
time before it runs out of energy.

These videos are meaningless because they are never backed up
with any relevant or detailed information or any figures to
corroborate what they claim. And lets face it, some of the videos
you get excited about are mind-bogglingly pathetic to the extreme.

Core might think that MH and myself are armchair clowns, or
knuckleheads, or whatever, but as MH says, there are many
experiments that you don't need to do, to know what the outcome
will be or indeed conclude how and why something is happening.
The application of science and the knowledge passed down by
generations of clever scientists sprinkled with a little commonsense
is all that is required - and is clearly everything that is lacking from
Core's interpretation of things.

Experimentation is all well and good, but if you don't have at least
the basic knowledge to interpret what you are seeing, then what is
the point? This is exactly why so many people come up with so
many bizarre notions and outrageous claims - they simply have
not got a clue about the science behind what they are doing or
what they are witnessing happening. It's magic!

On a lighter note, why are you struggling to get hold of a beer
can? Why do I get the feeling that this will be another project of
yours that fails to materialise?

If all else fails, do what Core does, and use your bell-end! :-*

replication"10/8/1
Post by: Paul-R on 2011-10-11, 16:24:35

The Peter Davey part of the link to the book only goes to emphasise that this
really has nothing at all to do with anything resonating at 50Hz or 300Hz,
400Hz, or whatever - just simple resistive heating.
What is the page number of the page which leads you to say this?

replication"10/8/11

Chet:
Quote
Slovenia and I are replicating a device with very specific dimensions that is
alleged to be the original work of Tesla
And has a specific OU claim,
The inventor is assisting....

My suggestion is to get the inventor's specific OU claim and data
and lay it out on the table for everybody to see. If need be the
"technology" can just be a black box without any details. Then do
your replications and lay your results out and data on the table for
everybody to see and compare the two.

In my opinion if you hear the old refrain from the inventor that
"you didn't do your replication correctly" then that's a sure sign
that you have been conned.

You really need a Kill-a-Watt meter to measure the energy in. I'm
not sure but the granularity of the Kill-a-Watt meter may be an
issue also. It's made for home use so suppose it's granularity is
0.1 Kilowatt-hours. In that case you have to do a "burn" of at
least 10 Kilowatt-hours to get reasonable accuracy from the
device. i.e.; You should base your data on at least 100 "counts"
by the Kill-a-Watt meter to filter out the "quantization noise"
associated with the device.

Good luck,

MileHigh

replication"10/8/11
Post by: Chet K on 2011-10-11, 18:08:13

MH
Yes I know how things can go awry with these Claims, Thats why
I'm getting the right can {Farrah :P]

On another note Rex has updated there Files {more Herresy]
From Koen at OU

Koen1
Hero Member

Posts: 1175

Ni-H LENR Energy Generator!
on: Today at 11:32:08 AM QuoteHi everybody,

in case you didn't know yet, there have been a few interesting
developments
in the area of Low Energy Nuclear Reactions, specifically those
between Nickel
and Hydrogen.
A "cold" fusion reaction process has been developed that produces
a nice amount
of output energy in the form of electrical current.
Patents have been filed, production of the first limited number of
commercial generators
is in process.

Here are one or two links for those who are interested:
- http://www.rexresearch.com/rossi/rossi.htm
- http://www.rexresearch.com/piantelli/piantelli.htm

Perhaps not the most easy thing to build yourself, but interesting
nevertheless.

Chet

replication"10/8/1

What is the page number of the page which leads you to say this?

Well, alarm bells ring - excuse the pun - when it states that the
inventor used a bicycle bell. A bicycle bell would be of little use if it
resonated at 50Hz in air as no one would hear that low bass
frequency - it would be barely audible, if at all. Have you ever
heard a bicycle bell that didn't 'ring' at a nice audible frequency?
I've read through it a few times and what there is makes little
sense.

However, it is what is not stated that is more important: COP<20
is mentioned, so is the 220 voltage and the 50Hz mains frequency,
but I find no mention whatsoever of the current consumption -
rather a crucial piece of data that they have neglected to state.

replication"10/8/1
Post by: Paul-R on 2011-10-11, 21:48:50

Well, alarm bells ring - excuse the pun - when it states that the inventor used a
bicycle bell.

I asked you for the page number.

What is that page number?

replication"10/8/11

@Ramset
You know many times I have found the process of invention and
discovery has nothing to do with textbook knowledge, not training
nor experience -- many times it is blind luck and having enough
common sense to simply connect the dots and keep an open mind.
Now concerning the mystery of the Peter Davey heater you may
have just found the answer, Ni-H LENR Energy Generator. We
have a confined space between the bells or plates which may
undergo mechanical oscillations of pressure, we have intense heat,
we may have the intermittent formation of hydrogen through
electrolysis at the bell surface and nickel which is quite often used
in the process of electroplating metals such as a "bell". As for the
secret catalyst, since it is a secret we have no idea whether it
would be present or not. In which case we would be able to simply
connect the dots between cause and effect and the critics here
would look pretty silly once again, in my opinion.
This is what I think science is all about, common sense,
understanding and connecting the dots between cause and effect.
Regards
AC

replication"10/8/11

I did some sniffing around about that Patrick J. Kelley document,
"A Practical Guide to 'Free Energy' Devices," and found two things:

A great forum site for learning about electronics:

http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/
(http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/)

A very sobering discussion on an earlier version of Patrick J.
Kelley's document:

http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=14396
(http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=14396)

MileHigh

replication"10/8/11

deleted due to pointlessness :D

replication"10/8/11

Quote from: allcanadian on 2011-10-12, 00:35:51
@Ramset
You know many times I have found the process of invention and discovery has
nothing to do with textbook knowledge, not training nor experience
...

"In the fields of observation chance favors only the prepared
mind." (Louis Pasteur).

All discoveries appear because phenomena observed by "prepared
minds" lead them to practical applications. An ignorant can't get
ideas from observations because he can't realize or interpret what
he is watching. You must have a certain degree of education linked
to a certain degree of the human knowledge of your time
(otherwise lightning conductors could have been invented by
prehistorical men).
Typical example, Nikola Tesla:
- Higher Real Gymnasium in Karlovac
- Electrical engineering at the Austrian Polytechnic in Graz (where
he studied mathematics, mechanics, physics).
Even a bright mind only is not enough, a solid background is also
required for inventing.

The idea that unskilled, not trained or not experienced people
could discover or invent useful things is not supported by facts.

replication"10/8/1

I asked you for the page number.

What is that page number?

Yes you did ask me for the page number, which I find a little
puzzling since you were the person that stuck the link up in the
first place? So you put a link up to an article that you assumed
everyone knew about, yet you have not even read it yourself?
??? Am I missing something here?

Page 14-12 - 14-13
Quote
"In the fields of observation chance favors only the prepared mind." (Louis
Pasteur).

All discoveries appear because phenomena observed by "prepared minds" lead
them to practical applications. An ignorant can't get ideas from observations
because he can't realize or interpret what he is watching. You must have a
certain degree of education linked to a certain degree of the human knowledge
of your time (otherwise lightning conductors could have been invented by
prehistorical men).

Exn, this is precisely the point I was endeavouring to make by my
previous comments regarding experimenting if you do not possess
the necessary scientific background or knowledge to interpret what
is happening. Pasteur puts it very eloquently.

replication"10/8/11
Post by: Chet K on 2011-10-12, 12:58:46

Some images of the Tesla Sonic water heating device Here


I am trying to figure a way to post them directly here [or link]

Chet

replication"10/8/1
Post by: Paul-R on 2011-10-12, 14:15:13

Yes you did ask me for the page number, which I find a little puzzling since you
were the person that stuck the link up in the first place? So you put a link up
to an article that you assumed everyone knew about, yet you have not even
read it yourself? ??? Am I missing something here?

Page 14-12 - 14-13
In post 125, you say:

"The Peter Davey part of the link to the book only goes to
emphasise that this really has nothing at all to do with
anything resonating at 50Hz or 300Hz, 400Hz, or whatever - just
simple resistive heating".

You say this is stated on page 12, 13.
Page 12 has 5 paragraphs.

In which paragraph(s) is the statement made?

replication"10/8/1

In post 125, you say:

"The Peter Davey part of the link to the book only goes to emphasise that this
really has nothing at all to do with
anything resonating at 50Hz or 300Hz, 400Hz, or whatever - just simple
resistive heating".

You say this is stated on page 12, 13.

In which paragraph(s) is the statement made?

Oh, I see now, you're deliberately playing silly-buggers, I thought
you were perhaps dyslexic or something.

If you re-read my post you will see that I never said that anything
was stated in the article. I applied my brain to what was written
and realised that there was in fact nothing to suggest that it is not
simply resistive heating. Ie, there is nothing whatsoever in the
article that points to acoustic heating other than people seeing
something that is not there - like the 'tuning a bicycle bell to 50hz'
nonsense. And we've already covered the 50Hz standing wave
claims and binned it. All just wishful thinking allied with ignorance.

replication"10/8/11

Some images of the Tesla Sonic water heating device Here

water-heater-query-14.html#post161897

I am trying to figure a way to post them directly here [or link]

Chet

I assume this info comes from the secret Serb who's device you
are trying to replicate, to a point whereby you won't settle for
anything less than the precise beer can, right?

So I don't get it, you require a 1.725 gap between the can and the
ring for this to supposedly work, but as you are finding 1.725mm
to be a little tight you are altering this parameter to 2mm! Not
only this, but you intend to place mica spacers between the ring
and the can so they don't contact each other. ??? But surely it
will be an oscillating movement between the can and the ring that
you are trying to achieve... and that just ain't gonna happen if you
secure the two together?

Have you really thought this through? Have you really any idea of
exactly what you are trying to accomplish here in terms of what
you expect to happen, and why? It's all looking a bit slap-stick to
me!

Incidentally, where is there any reference to Tesla having made
one of these? Did Tesla have a patent for it or anything as I've
never come across it.

replication"10/8/11
Post by: Chet K on 2011-10-12, 15:29:24

HHHMMMMMM
If you read My post you will see how I feel about spacers ,and the
rest of your comments!
I have to go down To NY on Biz

I want to post slovenias pics here so you can see the device
BTW
I feel the only thing that will suffice is an exact replication!!
Slovenia is having difficulty at this point but he wants the Serbian
Gent to see he is Sincere {so do I]
That is the reason for some of the Compromises at this point [and
just plain curiosity]

I have another Movie for you from our eastern european friends

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6shXUeFUjQ8&feature=email

Thanks
Chet

replication"10/8/11

Chet:

I caught up on the thread on the other side of the divide! Slovenia
did a preliminary test run! I am assuming your run is a ways off
because I don't think you have anything built yet.

Slovenia is having lots of fun and I am sure you will too. That's
the fun side of it.

You mentioned how you guys will have to focus on measurements
after the preliminary runs and all the fun factor stuff, and that's
indeed true.

Kenny said this:
Quote
Hi, if you can get the time required to reach the temp increase from a known
volume of water and amps used from your 120 volt source I can give you an
estimate of the efficiency.

That makes me think of the old Unix fortune cookie message:
"Measure with a micrometer, mark with chalk, and cut with an
axe."

Kenny is making his measurement with an axe. Of course it's just
an estimate like Kenny said, and it will give you some food for
thought. I will be curious to see how you guys make your
measurements. I already thought of a way to do it but my lips are
sealed. You should bring Core into the brainstorming session also.

Now of course, if you are COP 20, measuring with an axe should
not make any difference. Does the Serbian pdf claim COP 20?

I am assuming that Slovenia is following the pdf for his build. Why
would the Serbian dude put the heating ring at the top of the
container when hot water rises? Without agitation, it looks like the
heater will create a "temperature inversion" with a layer of hot
water sitting on top of a larger volume of cold water. But doing
any agitation will be dangerous and you run a high risk of shorting
the ring to the can.

By the way, it's impossible to make a gap of 1.725 mm and I am
assuming that's in the Serbian pdf. You may not realize it, but
little things like that erode the Serbian guy's credibility.
Pretending that you can build something with a precision of
1/1000th of a millimeter is just silly.

MileHigh

replication"10/8/11
Post by: Chet K on 2011-10-13, 02:22:51

MH
Yes I know
I have to tell you I could do this tolerance with my Brush plating
machine [flea hairs at a time]but you are correct .
But I'm having fun too ,Can't wait to boil some brew......
As far as the position Slovenia has the device [vertical] thats not
what the PDF shows [horizontal]
Good point MH
This run is in line with Cores first trial ,just seat of the pants!!

For your information I spent many years doing material testing for
laboratories all over NYC ,I understand test protocol
and the necessity of compiling good data ,that being said in this
venue I'm completely out of my element !

So feel free to contribute ..........
Thanks
Chet

replication"10/8/11

You have to think about heat flow and how to overcome it's effects
on your measurements!

replication"10/8/11

I have another Movie for you from our eastern european friends

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6shXUeFUjQ8&feature=email

Thanks
Chet

I'd love to know what you are seeing in these videos Chet.
Certainly there is nothing close to even 30lpm shown coming from
that bubbler, in fact I'd estimate no more than 1lpm. And I know
he gives the excuse that he does not want to put it on full because
he is running it in a building, but why show 11 minutes of video
showing pathetic lazy bubbles instead of giving it a couple of
seconds on full just to emphasise his claims. After all he is
claiming between 30lpm and 60lpm, which in itself is meaningless
unless he provides a figure for the current he is drawing - anyone
can produce 60lpm if they drive a suitable electrolyser with enough
current. Also, his electrolyser must be runninng very hot and
producing a lot of water vapour because look at the condensation
mist being produced when the tube is in the air. This in itself
suggests very high current draw.

But to top everything off, the best part for me is nothing in the
pointless video, but rather the comment underneath it.

QUOTE:
Quote
Friend. How match current amount consumes your circuit? and voltage of
sourge?
danielgpalacios 2 days ago
@danielgpalacios ITS SEEN VERY GOOD...THE CIRCUIT PRODUCE AMPS NOT
NOT COSUMMING AMPS!!!!

WE USING FORM 0 UP 90 VDC TO RUN THE CIRCUIT AND THE FEULCELL.... WE
CAN NOT MEASURE THE VOLTAGE AT THE FEULCELL ,OUR VOLT METER GO'S
ONLY TO 500V ....DON'T WANT TO BLOW IT UP ...WE GOING TO DO A TEST IF
IT'S WILL RUN ONLY ON A BIG CAPACITOR.....?????THANKS
THEWATERENERGY1 1 day ago

lol. Elements of Fast Freddy's bullshit here. The circuit produces
amps not consuming amps? C.C What?

Then he says that he is using 0 - 90vdc to run the system, but is
worried that his 500vdc meter will blow... what? ???

So he answers this guys comment by saying that he can't say how
much current his electrolyser is drawing because he only has a
voltmeter that goes up to 500 volts? Double ???

It would appear his science is every bit as good as his English!
Come on Chet, this is all just nonsensical gibberish and
pseudoscience from clueless wannabes!

Please Chet, I implore you, pleeeaasse don't make me sit through
anymore of these mindnumbingly ridiculous videos... life's just too
short. :'(

replication"10/8/11
Post by: ION on 2011-10-13, 17:19:25

Farrah,

I would suggest you just ignore the next bandwagon Chet tries to
cheerlead, as thus far they have been a complete waste of time
and energy, not to mention bandwidth.

I am annoyed at how so many good minds are jumping to refute
this gibberish, giving it way more life and attention than it
deserves.

There are big nuts to crack, and this is not one of them.

Poor Peter Davey has probably ingested more toxic metals making
tea with his contraption, probably leading to a form of senility or
early alzheimers.

He should stick to the sax, it is a bit healthier. A little bit of
knowledge is indeed a dangerous thing.

Hopefully my first and last post to this thread, not wanting to add
to the parade.

replication"10/8/11

You're so right Ion, I need to get a grip and stop instinctively
responding to this pathetic nonsense.

There you go Chet, I've just learned something! :)

replication"10/8/11
Post by: Chet K on 2011-10-13, 22:59:36

Well somebody is confused,
Probably Me!

Farrah you are the resident expert on all things HHO ,I am clueless
[as you love to remind me]!
I bring the HHO vids here for you to see ,for that very reason !
For a few moments of your time and your opinion! Thats all No
band wagon No Brass band ,Not even the fat lady..
I may highlight the claim as a brief intro but??
These guys can barely type our language ,They have made
rediculous heat claims and swore they would share?
They keep making Vids ......there Crazy ?? Who knows??

As far as Peter Davey
?
I'm building the Serbians supposed Tesla water heating device,It
intrigues me on quite a few levels First time I ever heard you could
heat water this way was from a fellow whom I used to argue with
on these forums years ago
Kator///something
was his handle,an engineer from Europe ,He told me he had a
device that was very similar to this and he used it to heat his
house but it could be very dangerous and wasn't legal
This was in private Emails
I didn't press him.
Anyhow I'm just doing an experiment with some friends thats all
!To say that I'm taking away resources from this community by
distracting ?

How does that work??

I had no idea I had those kind of powers??
I will be more careful with them in the future

Chet

replication"10/8/11

1. I'm interested in your experimental results, Chet. I'm doing
a few expts myself, continuing with the blocking oscillator
approach.

2. Bill Mehess at ou.com is showing (finally) what his "cell" looks
like, a bit cryptic still -- as in this vid he showed recently --

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7klSIifrNsU

About 0.3V and he claims this cell is NOT galvanic... What it IS,
not disclosed yet.

3. ION -- weren't you going to do some kind of poll on the various
devices??

replication"10/8/11
Post by: ION on 2011-10-14, 00:37:53

From Physics Prof.
Quote
3. ION -- weren't you going to do some kind of poll on the various devices??

I think you have me confused with Deepcut

replication"10/8/11
Post by: Chet K on 2011-10-14, 02:06:44

Farrah
Quote
"instinctively responding" .............. SSOOoo is that anything like
Irresistible??

I will miss your comments Farrah ....There is just something about
you??????????? I can't explain it !
Smart, educated ...you do experiments... you share your
experiments.. your a girl...... [maybe thats it??]
I consider you a huge asset to this world and this community!!

PLEASE GIVE ME ANOTHER CHANCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am actually trying harder

Sigh.............

@ Steve
As the data comes in I will be posting it here ,MH has promised
"Scrutiny"!!
And yes Bill M is starting to discuss his device although it seems
Galvanic reaction has not been ruled out?

Thanks
Chet

replication"10/8/11

Flattery will get you anywhere :)

I guess you intrigue me in a way, Chet. You jump blindly on every
bandwagon going but never seem to follow anything up with your
own research - and I don't necessarily mean experimentation, you
don't even seem to research the science. You always take it for
granted that these things work as claimed, without considering the
implications or the science involved. You claim to be an engineer
of sorts, but very basic science seems to elude you - everytime.
This I cannot fathom.

I sat through 11 minutes of that last video watching bubbles come
out of a pipe, all the time wondering what it was about the video
you were impressed by?

This latest Peter Davey thing is a case in point. The last thing any
of you are considering is the most obvious answer to what is
occuring: resistive heating. How can you possibly simply dismiss
resitive heating? As myself and others have already alluded to,
Core, has around a kilowatt of electrical power sitting across the
water between the two electrodes, of course the water is going to
get hot, and very fast, but there is absolutely no reason to think
that anything acoustic is playing any part.

Ok, there are two versions of this at the moment, Cores, Davey
replication and the Secret Serbs thingy that you and Slov are
looking at.

As far as I'm concerned, the Peter Davey/Core, bell thing is not
even worth the time and effort. The Serb thing is slightly more
intriguing due to it's design, but nonetheless highly implausible.
Not just because of the wrong labelling of terminals or the high
tolerance issues highlighted by MH, but also because of the lack of
any specific details or data and the total lack of any science to
back up the claims. And of course these suggestions of 400Hz
frequencies magically appearing without explanation only go to
further fuel our scepticism.

Claims need to be backed up by science, hard facts and figures.
This we never, ever see.

replication"10/8/11
Post by: Paul-R on 2011-10-14, 17:35:36

And of course these suggestions of 400Hz frequencies magically appearing
without explanation...
"Without explanation" or without any explanation that you have
read?

In the States, 400hz is worthless.

In the UK, 400hz is three octaves up on the pitch of the local
driving AC mains supply.

One day, Farrah, you may read up on the subject. Until that day
dawns, as far as Davey
is concerned, you live in a soup of ignorance.

replication"10/8/11
Post by: Chet K on 2011-10-14, 17:52:19

Farrah

I could make no sense of the last Waterenergy1 vid ? They make
big claims 30 to 60 LPM They say they run low current at
resonance?
If what they are saying is true .... Its way Overunity!!
They say they will share with other experimenters ,not on
forums??

I post it for you to see and wait for your response?? Usually
cringing in anticipation !!
But I have to do this because there is always that Chance!!

Do I understand these claims Of resonating 1.2Khz at 90 MA
making 1 liter of water rise 40 degrees F in one second,
No I don't, that's not possible to do! They say they are doing it
,so I show it to you!

Regarding the replication I'm doing, we shall see if there is
anything strange or unusual?

I can do many things , some of them very well ,The things I know
nothing about ,unless i have a good reason they stay that way !
You are an expert In this ,I have learned thru the years "YOU DO
YOU!!"
And Farrah,"You do you" very well !!

Thank you
Chet
PS
I'm sure these Eastern European Boyz [waterEnergy1]are not done
"sharing"
Its really their heat I am interested in Not there HHO. I will
scrutinize more carefully
Before posting [but I could miss something??]

replication"10/8/11
Post by: Chet K on 2011-10-15, 00:02:34

Farrah
I brought you another movie
This one is different
MH Too

----------------------

Well my friends it looks like the history files are being created
just right now as we speak... at this very moment... At this very
time I'm writing this words.

Wesley
Yes I can
Successful replication of OU device
150W output around 5 W input.
By:
International group of people including me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJBpNKSsdqw

Wesley

replication"10/8/11

Farrah

I could make no sense of the last Waterenergy1 vid ? They make big claims 30
to 60 LPM They say they run low current at resonance?
If what they are saying is true .... Its way Overunity!!

Quote
Do I understand these claims Of resonating 1.2Khz at 90 MA making 1 liter of
water rise 40 degrees F in one second,
No I don't, that's not possible to do! They say they are doing it ,so I show it
to you!

I have not seen or read of these resonating claims, I don't read or
speak German. But don't you see, what they show in videos could
be absolutely anything, and they can say anything they want to -
shock, horror, they might even be telling porkies! They video a
few bubbles coming from a pipe under water and claim 30 -
60lpm, when from experience I know I'm seeing barely 1lpm.

But Chet, they also stated that they use 0 - 90vdc - note: dc - give
no figure for current (because apparently their voltmeter might
blow up!) and show great quantities of water vapour condensing in
cooler air, all of which indicates the contrary of just about
everything they are saying. The clues are all there if you look
hard enough. How can you even begin to think that they may be
achieving overunity when they do not even give a figure for
current draw? It's like me saying that my car goes 300 mph, and
to prove it, I'm going to drive it at 30mph, while not showing you
the speedo!

There might be a slight issue with the language barrier, but you
can only cut them so much slack for this. Afterall, they seem to
want to measure current with a voltmeter and also claim that they
are producing a current rather than drawing a current from the
power supply.

So, Chet, anything about all this not quite ringing true yet? Is your
spideysense tingling?

replication"10/8/11
Post by: Chet K on 2011-10-15, 00:28:50

Farrah
These fellows have a few vids, on one they give more info ,but yes
I do smell something funny??

But wesley is saying He's got it? [TK Device]
In the movie I posted Above!!
Chet

replication"10/8/11

"Without explanation" or without any explanation that you have read?

In the States, 400hz is worthless.

In the UK, 400hz is three octaves up on the pitch of the local driving AC mains
supply.

One day, Farrah, you may read up on the subject. Until that day dawns, as far
as Davey
is concerned, you live in a soup of ignorance.

That would be, 'without any explanation and without any
explanation I have read'.

If you pop back to page one of this thread and look at the attached
diagram you will see that the 400Hz mentioned at the time
pertained to a 60Hz AC supply voltage, which was the issue of
contention. Not exactly a harmonic... so stick that in your octave
pipe and smoke it!

replication"10/8/11
Post by: Paul-R on 2011-10-15, 15:50:47

That would be, 'without any explanation and without any explanation I have
read'.

If you pop back to page one of this thread and look at the attached diagram
you will see that the
400Hz mentioned at the time pertained to a 60Hz AC supply voltage.
It is wrong. That's all.

replication"10/8/11

It is wrong. That's all.

It would appear so wouldn't it.

The later depiction does show a 50Hz and 400Hz for the Eurpoean
version, but oddly the US version on page 2 post #34, shows 60Hz
and 300Hz. ??? So, either harmonics have nothing whatsoever to
do with this, or the people playing with this have not got a clue
what they are talking about. Either way there is no explanation
provided for the figures stated.

replication"10/8/11
Post by: Paul-R on 2011-10-16, 12:22:35

It would appear so wouldn't it.

The later depiction does show a 50Hz and 400Hz for the Eurpoean version, but
oddly the US version on page 2 post #34, shows 60Hz and 300Hz. ??? So,
either harmonics have nothing whatsoever to do with this...
There is certainly a mistake here. Many people don't realise that
although most countries use AC, they don't
use the same frequency. I can't imagine why.

But it is not about harmonics; it is about octaves.

Paul-R

replication"10/8/11

Paul:
Quote
But it is not about harmonics; it is about octaves.

Many postings back I dealt with the issue of harmonics or octaves
or tuning, whatever you want to call it. It was in response to Core
and he never replied. So the question can be reworded for you;
What about the octaves, what is your presumption or argument
about the octaves from start to end? I am asking you for the
whole deal, not just a one-liner response. How do you believe you
can get over unity from this setup? What do you think the
mechanism is?

A quote from Slovenia about the Serbian mentor:
Quote
The contact knows how the device works and is now saying he will explain it to
me. He has also sent me two more diagrams of his device to post with some
new information. He found a better design for the US version. It needs to run
on 220 volts too.

Let's assume that there is no financial incentive for the Serbian
person. The project is too small and too low profile to have some
deluded investor to want to throw money at him. It makes me
think that a reasonable explanation is that the Serbian person has
mental issues. There may be some kind of
mentoring/control/James Bond "Q" fantasy factor that is in play
here. There are a ton of obscure YouTube clips that may fall into
this category also.

I remember many years ago there was a guy in his late forties that
regularly walked around a big downtown shopping mall in an old
and dirty Superman costume. So maybe the Serbian guy is sort of
the same, a free energy Superman.

I hope that the replicators will be honest and share what happens
when you get to the end-game and your replications prove
nothing. How is the Serbian person going to react? When you
look at his end-game behaviour from the perspective I outline
above, what are your thoughts?

If I am right, it will be no fun to realize that you were duped by a
crazy person. However, you can chalk it up to a learning
experience and perhaps be more selective in the future. From
what I gather, for both proposed water heating systems there isn't
a single shred of unverified test data that alleges that either one
works. Everything is being replicated on blind faith. The only
thing that you have is the Peter Davey news clip, and that's no
better than the infamous 10-year-old Lutec news clip. Reporters
are always desperate to get a story and they are not scientists.

MileHigh

replication"10/8/11
Post by: Chet K on 2011-10-16, 19:24:59

MH
I'm gonna build it ,and I will give you all the Gorey details Good or
Bad!!
Heres what it looks like ,its 220 now and COP 12


Chet

replication"10/8/11

We have a diagram supplied by Mr. C.:

(http://i53.tinypic.com/2cd95br.png)

The COP claim is 12 for 60 Hz mains power. So that shouldn't be
too difficult to verify even if you "measure with an axe."

It's interesting that for 50 Hz power he indicates a "resonance
factor" at eight times the fundamental frequency and for 60 Hz
power he indicates a "resonance factor" at five times the
fundamental frequency.

The precision for the gap is still too high in my opinion, the
average builder will not be able to set the gap to within 1/100th of
a millimeter.

The diagram seems to be indicating that the device is designed to
work with a continuous flow of water with grounded inlet and
outlet water pipes. However, there is a big issue there and you
builders can contemplate it. If the water inlet and outlet pipes are
conductive and grounded, then that sets up a short circuit between
the water inlet and outlet points of the plastic container. That
means a lot of current could flow from the "+" AC node and into
the grounded water inlet, and then out through the grounded
water outlet, and then into the "-" AC node which is the conductive
band wrapped around the can. So this is short-circuiting the
operation of the device in the sense that the aluminum can is
completely bypassed when the current flow takes this path. Mr. C
seems to be trying to skirt his way around this issue by showing
separate and distinct grounds for the water inlet and water outlet.
That's nonsense, how are you supposed to have "separate"
grounds?

In my opinion, you should ignore this business about the
grounding of the water inlet and outlets completely and figure out
how to do your tests safely. However, with all of the grounding
business to contemplate at least he seems to be implying the use
of an isolation transformer for the AC "+" and "-" inputs which
would be a very very good idea. The isolation transformer at least
keeps you one step removed from the big honking transformer
sitting on a telephone pole which renders the setup potentially less
lethal. Keep in mind if you use an isolation transformer with a
high enough KVA rating to maintain the output voltage at the high
power levels you are dealing with then the setup is still just as
lethal.

The big elephant is still in the room: What is your plan for making
measurements on this device? There is no reason that you can't
discuss this before you finish building the thing. You should not be
putting this discussion off and mentally blocking it out while you
are in "build mode." The more you talk about the physical setup
and the real test procedure for measuring the COP with your peers
the safer off you will be.

MileHigh

replication"10/8/11

Chet:
Quote
Heres what it looks like ,its 220 now and COP 12

Yes I saw that reference to 220. So that means you can tap into
your 220/240 VAC dryer/oven power panel (or appliance plug on
the wall) or perhaps something better: Get a big North American -
European power converter transformer. That 2:1 transformer will
give you your 220/240 VAC and also it acts as an isolation
transformer, something you desperately need. Plus you can't
legally tap into a power panel and add a new circuit, you need an
electrician to do that. The NA-EU conversion/isolation transformer
is the way I would do it. If you want high power though, I assume
that will be a bit difficult to find and you probably would have to
order one online.

There should be big warning bells about this whole thing ringing in
your ears. The Serbian Mr. C is changing his spec on the fly,
presumably because Slovenia is interacting with him. He shaved
off one digit of precision on his dimensions when in fact he should
have shaved off two. For the gap, as a bare minimum he should
be giving you some tolerance information and there is none. The
configuration has changed. What the hell? I thought that he had
a working system and you were simply trying to replicate it.

Where are Mr. C's measurement numbers and his measurement
procedure?

As far as I am concerned, all of this points to a potentially "crazy"
person that is winging it and making stuff up as he goes along as
he gets feedback from his followers. For me this brings to mind
totally clueless Ismael Aviso and his supposedly self-charging
electric car.

Again, what is your test and measurement plan?

MileHigh

replication"10/8/11
Post by: Chet K on 2011-10-16, 22:37:10

Comparison
I planned on comparing the time it takes a Resistance heater [like
you posted] to heat 1 liter of water
against the devices time, measuring input power of course with
one of those Kilowatt meters!

I felt if the R heater took several minutes and the Device took
seconds ,it would say something is happening here?
Know its 220v and I asked if this is because we can't get the right
can in the USA [I'm waiting for a reply}
Oh By the way I can rip My service panel off my wall and Prance
around the house with it if I want !!

No issues with "Legalities . Unless I was working for someone else
....... They wouldn't like me Prancing!!

Thanks for the ideas ,but I'll be dropping a dedicated line for these
experiments!

Chet

replication"10/8/11

Chet:

Comparing times sounds like a good way to go. It should be
relatively straightforward after you develop a procedure and all
that stuff.

The Kill-a-Watt meter should be a great fit for your testing. I
checked and the resolution when it is accumulating Kilowatt-hours
is 0.01 KWh. So let's check that: 10 watts x 1 hour is (10 x 60 x
60) = 36000 Joules. So (36000 Joules/1000 milliliters) = 36
Joules of energy per milliliter. Since 4.19 Joules of energy raises
the temperature of the water by one degree Celsius, the delta-
temperature for one liter of water based on the granularity of the
Kill-a-Watt meter will be (36/4.19) = 8.6 degrees Celsius.

In my opinion that's way too high a temperature change for one
liter of water for a single tick of the Kill-a-Watt meter. It's simply
too rough.

My conclusion is that you should do the whole thing based on 10
liters of water. That's a trivial thing to do with the resistive heater
and it would be a bit more complicated with the "sonic" heater.
Perhaps somehow you could simply do multiple runs where you
end up heating up a total of 10 liters of water.

Anyway, I am not commenting anymore. I have an analytical
mind and I think in terms of details. You can see that even with a
simple test there are many issues to contemplate to get to the
point where your data is reasonably solid and can bear up to
scrutiny.

Just for fun, let's look again at what you said:
Quote
I planned on comparing the time it takes a Resistance heater [like you posted]
to heat 1 liter of water
against the devices time, measuring input power of course with one of those
Kilowatt meters!

If you thought that was a complete description of your testing
procedure I am asking you to think again. I encourage you to
discuss these issues with Slovenia and Core and whomever else so
that you come up with a testing strategy that is sound and makes
sense.

Now, I am going to settle back into my comfortable armchair and
watch the show. I'm not going to say anything until the final
results come in. Good luck.

MileHigh

replication"10/8/11
Post by: Chet K on 2011-10-17, 02:15:16

MH
The Serbian professor has a calculation of cop 12

My gut tells me if this is true all I should need is a stop watch a
thermometer and a glass of water .[and the power in meter]

Is my thinking correct on this ?
Just this one point
COP 12 ......... I can do in One minute ........what should take 12
minutes??

Is that how it works??

Thanks
Chet
PS
BTW
There has been a change ,The professor is going to be more
involved in this replication, but the language barrier is Horrific [if
you've seen some of Slovenias translations]

replication"10/8/1
Post by: muDped on 2011-10-17, 02:21:37

One must wonder about the choice of aluminum for
the plate materials of the device. One Aluminum plate
was also used in the old "wet rectifiers" which were
popular experimenter items in the early 20th century
before the advent of reasonably priced high current
semiconductor diodes.

It would be most interesting to evaluate the current
waveform with the aluminum plates when powered by
50 or 60 Hz AC. The rapid formation of an aluminum oxide
layer may result in some unusual conductivity characteristics
during each half cycle.

Would you be able to perform such analysis Chet?

Another thing to look for is photon production. In
darkness you may see the plates glowing as this
was a characteristic of the wet rectifiers.

Here is a link. (http://www.sparkbangbuzz.com/els/borax-el.htm)

replication"10/8/11
Post by: Chet K on 2011-10-17, 02:25:47

No
I am limited to performance data
However if things get very interesting I will send one to our Friend
Tinsel koala
The metrologist............

Thanks
Chet
BTW
@ Dumped did you see all that Neutrino talk in the professors
post?

replication"10/8/11
Post by: Chet K on 2011-10-17, 03:58:04

Dumped
I read thru your link
Striking!! There has been talk of other replicators using Potassium
at 5% in solution

Thank you
Chet

replication"10/8/1
Post by: muDped on 2011-10-17, 04:03:55

...

Dumped, did you see all that Neutrino talk in the professors post?

No. Could you provide a link?

replication"10/8/11
Post by: Chet K on 2011-10-17, 13:10:45

Dumped
Here is the link

Once we get a member to translate things should get clearer [we
have someone who offered Slovenia has PM'd him]

Thanks for your Contributions I will be sharing some of them
Chet

replication"10/8/11

From MH:
Quote
The precision for the gap is still too high in my opinion, the average builder will
not be able to set the gap to within 1/100th of a millimeter.

A 1/2 litre aluminium beer can with its top end cut off is extremely
flexible, there is no rigidity to it at all. Even if you somehow
manage to cut the top section off without distorting its shape, I'm
willing to bet that, with the set up shown, it will flex enough just
from the heating action and movement of the water to near-
instantly short out.

I look forward to hearing Chets blow by blow report - if he ever
finds that elusive beer can that is! ;)

replication"10/8/1
Post by: Paul-R on 2011-10-17, 21:30:30

From MH:
A 1/2 litre aluminium beer can with its top end cut off is extremely flexible,
there is no rigidity to it at all.
Yes. It won't ring. It won't take a tuning. It isn't a bell at all.

This idea is interesting but it seems so far from Davey that it
needs a new name.

Paul-R

replication"10/8/1

You wanna bet? Well, maybe not at the frequencies he is using.
But it could be cracked.
Yes. It won't ring. It won't take a tuning. It isn't a bell at all.

This idea is interesting but it seems so far from Davey that it needs a new
name.

Paul-R

replication"10/8/11
Post by: Chet K on 2011-10-18, 22:51:59

Professor Savic's explanation.
Quote:

Sonic boiler catches the energy of the impact between neutrinos
(Teslione), and crystal lattice of the metal. Traveling of the
neutrinos is identical as the traveling of the sound wave. Particle
pushes another particle. Thats why you have to tune the sonic
boiler same as you tuning the musical instrument. Sonic boiler
absorbs electrical component of one wave on wave length, of
energy level of standing wave it uses(I didnt understand this my
self). As long as you have smaller diameter, and thicker
hemisphere, you will have more output Energy. Excitation energy
of input current, have to be the same as resonant sound frequency
of the phase electrode of boiler, and harmonic frequency of zero
electrode. (Phase electrode and zero electrode are connections
220v/50Hz, nothing more. In your case 110V/60Hz)
So Sonic boiler works as antenna for neutrinos in resonance.

replication"10/8/1
Post by: Paul-R on 2011-10-18, 23:17:10

Professor Savic's explanation.
Quote:

Sonic boiler catches the energy of the impact between neutrinos (Teslione)...
Unless I am mistaken, neutrinos will travel through mountains
happily enough.
Detectors get installed at the bottom of deep mine shafts etc etc.
for reasons
that I do not really understand, (possibly to detect neutrinos that
have travelled
through the earth from hte other side ???)

This explanation seems nonsense.

replication"10/8/11
Post by: Chet K on 2011-10-18, 23:32:08

Paul R
I have no idea [of course]

But I was told once by a very bright man
Never give a man a stick to beat you with,I just handed you a
pretty big stick.

BE NICE [didn't say you weren't ]
Thats all ,
I have all the info I need to build ,I am collecting the bits and
pieces, and we shall See if Neutrino's ,or Photons
Or Flavorshavers produce some Accelerated heat anomolies, We
shall see....................

Thank you for being here I value your opinions!
[besides I'm getting to meet lots of cool fellahs over at energetic]

Chet
PS
Professor Savic says it plays with the waves
Check this out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVkdfJ9PkRQ

replication"10/8/11
Post by: Chet K on 2011-10-19, 13:14:25

New tolerance specs for 220 volt neutrino cannon 2.52


Thanks
Chet

replication"10/8/11
Post by: Paul-R on 2011-10-19, 13:24:36

New tolerance specs for 220 volt neutrino cannon...
no harm in trying. but I am sure that coupling 60hz mains with
tuning to 300hz is a waste of
time.

Also, I believe the voltage to be irrelevant. The safest way is to
use a variac and bring it up from 0 volt.

And the COP should depend on the extent to which the tuning is
accurate.

replication"10/8/1

Unless I am mistaken, neutrinos will travel through mountains happily enough.
Detectors get installed at the bottom of deep mine shafts etc etc. for reasons
that I do not really understand, (possibly to detect neutrinos that have
travelled
through the earth from hte other side ???)

This explanation seems nonsense.

No, you're not mistaken. In fact neutrinos apparently pass through
pretty well everything, including ourselves and indeed whole
planets without any interaction. Scientists try to detect these
neutrinos down very deep mines just so that other subatomic
particles that continually bombard the Earth's surface will not
interfere with the equipment . So, while the Earth's mass will
prevent most subatomic particles travelling very far underground,
the neutrino is unaffected.

Which of course begs the question: Why neutrinos professor
Savic?

Since scientists are having trouble even detecting these subatomic
particles, how can the professor possibly know that neutrinos are
responsible for anything here? And why would they pass straight
through the Earth, and yet - for some reason - interact in a beer
can submerged in water?

I'd love to know how the professor has detected neutrinos, when
scientists have spent years down deep mines hoping to detect a
neutrino reacting, and have nothing to show for it yet?

It was all a bit dodgy to start with, but it's starting to get a little
bizarre now. Let's be honest here, this neutrino explanation is total
and utter nonsense. Chet, does Savic by any chance reside in a
home with nice soft cushiony walls and wear a white jacket that is
tied up behind his back... oh, and does he think he's a Vulcan? :)

replication"10/8/11

ZITTERBEWEGUNG

replication"10/8/11

Gtterdmmerung: :'(

The Serb dude: :D

The neutrinos: :-\

The hunger for knowledge:

(http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/rayortlund/files/2011/10/pie.j
pg)

replication"10/8/11
Post by: Chet K on 2011-10-22, 22:16:55

OH MH,
I'm savin you a nice slice of "Humble Pie".
Sooner or later .......................?
Its just a matter of time!!

Chet

replication"10/8/11

Pie in the sky or humble pie or pie in the face! lol

Just don't get electrocuted chasing after neutrinos. My pet theory
about the Serb guy being nuts is advanced by the neutrinos
business. It's very possible that you are giving him "action" just
like a gambling addict has to go to the casino to get some "action"
to satiate his or her need. He gets off on seeing people jumping
through hoops for him, language barrier or no language barrier.

replication"10/8/11
Post by: Chet K on 2011-10-23, 01:05:34

From the Boss [Thane]

"Until one is committed, there is hesitancy,the chance to draw
back, always ineffectiveness. Concerning all acts of initiative and
creation, there is one elementary truth, the ignorance of which
kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one
definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. All sorts of
things occur to help one that would never have otherwise
occurred. A whole... stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents and
meetings and material assistance which no man can have dreamed
would have come his way. Whatever you can do or dream you can
begin it. Boldness has genius, power, and magic in it. Begin it
now." ~ Goethe

replication"10/8/11

It all sounds fine and dandy but the reality is still what is going on
on the bench and what your measuring instruments are telling you
and presuming that you know how to use them and what their
limitations are. I am going to hazard a guess that after a few
years someone from the University of Ottawa Electrical
Engineering Department finally spoke to Thane to see what he was
up to in his borrowed (?) lab space. I would guess that Thane
didn't last ten minutes with this person and he was finally qualified
and got his ass booted out of there. Reading between the lines of
your prose Chet, I can tell you that Thane is the exact opposite of
what you perceive him to be. He's got nothing and it's all a farce
so you are "holding the bag" again. This is based on a serious
round of qualification of a series of his clips from about a year ago
that was done here. If Thane wants to sound like John Searl that's
not surprising because they are in the same class. Another "giant"
falls. He also gets some "crazy" points because about a month
ago he made a posting where he basically made his "Rolodex" of
business contacts public. WTF, no sane person in business would
do that, it's nuts! I am going to assume that all of the fancy
quotes from NASA and car manufacturers, etc, are from marketing
people with no technical background. It's the only way I can
rationalize that after looking at some of his presentation clips. He
is overwhelmingly unimpressive.

replication"10/8/11

... I can tell you that Thane is the exact opposite of what you perceive him to
be. He's got nothing and it's all a farce so you are "holding the bag" again.
This is based on a serious round of qualification of a series of his clips
from about a year ago that was done here. If Thane wants to sound like
John Searl that's not surprising because they are in the same class. Another
"giant" falls.... He is overwhelmingly unimpressive.

Got my attention, MH -- can you kindly provide a link to this
"serious round" of discussion regarding Thane's claims --
about a year ago? I would like to see what was said at the time,
and compare with what is happening now.

replication"10/8/11
Post by: Chet K on 2011-10-23, 13:24:43

MH
Yes that would be nice to see!

Thanks
Chet

replication"10/8/11
Post by: ION on 2011-10-23, 13:36:43

Here is the link to discussion of Thane's BITT on this site:

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=261.0

replication"10/8/1
Post by: Paul-R on 2011-10-23, 19:46:25

Quote from: DeepCut on 2011-10-23, 17:47:36
How would i go about changing the frequency of the output from a generator
coil...
I think that if the power is generated by a regular generator, then
change the rotational
speed of it.

Also, if the power comes from a battery, it could be fed into a
crude power amplifier
which takes a signal from the actual vibration of the bells. (It
might be necessary to
start it off by hitting the bell with a spanner, a fairly hazardous
thing to do.
This idea was proposed by me at the UK Free Energy conference in
2007, and I am
not aware of anyone having actually done it. (It is a good way of
using bells which
are successfully tuned to eachother, but not to 50hz, 60hz or any
of their octaves,
and if there is no AC mains around).

replication"10/8/1
Post by: muDped on 2011-10-23, 20:27:34

It seems that "Octave" is a term which is
specific to music.

In electricity and electronics it is the same
meaning as "Harmonic" or "Overtone."

(First Overtone = Second Harmonic)

Just wondering...

replication"10/8/11
Post by: Chet K on 2011-10-24, 01:51:48

DC
Quote:

I don't think we should second-guess conversations that we
suppose may have happened in a university lab somewhere when
we weren't present, it's worse than gossip because at least gossip
is based on real events ...

--------------------------------------------------
How true!!

MH ,
:(

Chet

replication"10/8/11

Boys:

You guys second-guess the information that you are given every
day because it's either cryptic or incomplete or makes no sense.
So there is a touch of irony there. If you are curious about why
he left the University of Ottawa then just ask him. Let me put it
like this: If I was in charge of their labs and spoke to him about
what he was doing for 10 minutes I would give him one week to
clear out.

No comments from either of you about the thread that analyzes
his "technology" in detail? Meanwhile, Thane has been "doing his
thing" and has been dropping big names for years. Are you aware
of any entity like NASA or General Motors that is licensing his
"technology?" Knowing how he acts, do you think he would be
letting his peers on the forums know if he made a deal? He sure
as hell would but there is nothing. Does he have a device that
demonstrates over unity? The answer is no.

In my opinion Thane is just a glorified "speed up under load" or
"delayed Lenz' law" dude. Let me me summarize that whole deal:
For a constant voltage source if your average current consumption
goes up that means your impedance goes down and your power
consumption increases. The power goes to three possible places;
1) resistive losses in the wires, 2) friction losses in the bearings,
and 3) friction losses with the air. So a "speed up effect" simply
means that more of the available power goes to friction losses with
the air. You have a power pie that is cut up into three slices, and
you are tweaking the way the way the pie is cut up when you
change the configuration so that the "friction losses with the air"
slice increases in size. A larger "friction loss with the air" slice
equates to a higher RPM and the bearing friction loss slice and/or
the electrical resistive loss slice(s) decrease is size.

And that's it! When you see a speed up under load or if you see a
speed up when you short a coil you are doing nothing more than
changing how you slice up the power dissipation pie. It's a zillion
miles away from free energy and it's just a giant futile exercise in
"spinning your wheels." There are no cumulative effects to be had
by "adding more coils" to eventually achieve over unity, it's just a
fantasy because you are not stopping and taking a second look at
the problem and distilling it down to its basic fundamentals. That's
the real deal on the 2000+ postings about this "discovery."

Meanwhile Chet, you and the Davey crowd are in denial of a few
basic facts that have been mentioned a few times already: The
moment your tin can is immersed in water the resonant frequency
drops dramatically and the water damps out any resonance of the
new system much more quickly as compared to the air. Even if
you did manage to get some kind of resonance phenomenon
going, it means nothing, and the only thing that will be going on is
resistive heating. Your measurements should clearly show this.

MileHigh

replication"10/8/1
Post by: Paul-R on 2011-10-24, 16:35:40

Quote from: Dumped on 2011-10-23, 20:27:34
It seems that "Octave" is a term which is
specific to music.

In electricity and electronics it is the same
meaning as "Harmonic" or "Overtone."

(First Overtone = Second Harmonic)

Just wondering...
A string stretched between two points will vibrate normally, and it
will vibrate with
two maximums in its length, i.e. with the central point static, a
node. This
second way of vibrating will give a note of twice the frequency, i.e.
the same note,
but one octave up.

BUT, the string will also vibrate in thirds, such that there is a
stationary point, a node, a
third from one end and another a third from the other end. The
note will be QUITE DIFFERENT
and this is one of a set of harmonics. This is NO GOOD for Davey
work.

As far as Davey thinking goes, the vitally important issue is that
the "note" remains
the same as the note of the mains AC. If it is twice the frequency,
one octave, or four times
the frequency, two octaves, does not matter. But it needs to be
the same note, in
the case of the UK (and NZ), 50hz, the note needs to be roughly
"G".

Paul-R

replication"10/8/1
Post by: szaxx on 2011-10-24, 20:58:06

Hi All,

Detecting neutrinos has been done by several (metal) sheets
placed in a stack connected as a capacitor and a high votage
charged on the plates just at the point of breakdown. The extra
energy from the passing particle causes conduction.
Dont quote me on this but it has been built and tested deeep
underground. cant say where or by who but reported tests were
successful.

replication"10/8/11

Yawn, this is getting very boring now, Chet. C.C It's all been
said, nothing more to say.

This is becoming just another thing you've raved about that
ultimately comes to nothing, and contrary to what you preach, yet
another project you or others have failed to replicate. Time to put
the pudding to the test Chet, or call it a day.

replication"10/8/11
Post by: Chet K on 2011-10-24, 21:46:13

Farrah
This one is about to sprout wings !!
Its gonna take off big time.....................

Chet
PS
MH
you should get a kick out of this one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teAksvLyaJ0

apparently Peter D has a little brother Pauly serving some
involuntary vacation time in a beautiful downtown S.A. facility
this is how they heat their tea......................

[only kiddin]

replication"10/8/11
Post by: Chet K on 2011-10-24, 23:04:50

Duncans post was so funny I had to post it here

Quote:

On the outskirts of the sun kissed beaches of S.O.W.A.T.O in
South Africa there lies a sweet little multi racial prison known as
Diepkloof charmingly nick named sun city after Its less less
popular name sake the holiday gambling resort Sun city Sun City
South Africa |*Sun City South Africa

Normally In the quiet of a summers evening after their cocktails
the prisoners in sun city
http://www.iafrikaphotos.co.za/img_u...sipri00092.jpg
whilst waiting for the guard's to bring in their coco and tuck them
in, would fancy a cup of tea, being
totally fearless (unlike me) they would make one of these
(allegedly) out of the top quality government issued silver spoons
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-m...ober242011.jpg
of course there's a little bit of flex between the handles to stop big
bangs!

using a light bulb that had accidentally been broken the quests
would connect the water heater to the light fitting in their luxury
suits.
I have the advantage of insulating tape and extension leads and
RCDs and plugs and sockets and switches and I'm an electrician to
boot, I now, do not find it surprising that South Africa abolished
the Death Penalty with prisoners building these bloody things It
was probably surplus to requirement.
Even as an electrician I still dont like this much still for the
advancement of science.....
and anyway like South Africa I'm on 240 volts and 50hz here in
the UK unlike you Jessie 110 volt guys! Unfortunately I dont have
a temperature probe to hand and I'm certainly not in a lab but in a
vague attempt to get some sort of figures I'm using 400ml of iced
water in a jam jar (you can still see a few ice cubes floating at the
start) and I intend to time it to boiling whilst observing the
current.
The video is in real time you can see me plug the contraption in
and watch it to boiling point. By all means do your own calculation.
I had difficulty focusing the camera on the analogue meter
however it is constantly in circuit and set to 10 amps FSD, Its
movement is undetectable at the start of the heating cycle, It rises
momentary to perhaps 1.75 amps during heating period (Its a
poor scale) and drops back down to about 0.3 amps when the
water is boiling furiously (strange that) if you watch the mirror
reflection you will see it. This is all extremely dangerous children
but I would be delighted to hear of this duplicated. bubble.wmv -
YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teAksvLyaJ0
It also crosses my mind that the two cone arrangement of Peter
(providing the cones were air tight) would limit the water to metal
contact area even if the thing was totally submerged so saving all
those fuses! Although I dont seem to be getting anything like the
current draw of core despite being on 240 volts! The Tuning and
harmonics may or may not be a red herring well girls and boys
video isn't the method for scientific investigation everything here
could be a forgery It isn't! why forge anything that could be
duplicated by anyone in 10 minutes? Of course I have to say
dont ever ever do this.... its suicidal and only done by lunatics
who have got fed up being fired out of cannons! BUT....
__________________
Whatever you can do,or dream you can,begin it.Boldness has
genius,power and magic in it.Begin it now.
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replication"10/8/11

Are you gonna tell us those spoons are tuned to the mains
frequency now, Chet?

Of course the water will heat, but everything is uninsulated and so
at a dangerous mains voltage, which is why the immersion heating
element was invented. You can put your finger in the water in an
electric kettle while it is on without fear of electrocution - you
wouldn't want to stick your finger in the water in that jam jar! But
it's all been said in previous posts and we're just continually
repeating ourselves. This is all just foolish and dangerous
nonsense which seems to be getting more and more absurd as this
thread continues.

Just to add further to the nonsense, here is a quote from the
darkside...
Quote
Message from Mr. "C"

Oct. 29, 2011
Post to forum:
The sonic boiler diameter 65mm = 1 / 4 wavelength of the wave he catches .=
= 260mm 65x4 = 1.1530479 MHz wave

So now we have a very specific frequency in the MHz range being
brought into the mix... What? ??? For once let's be honest here,
you folk don't have a clue what you are doing or what you are
talking about, and it's quite apparent that neither does, Mr 'C',
Prof. Savic, ET or whoever else is spoon feeding you this bullshit!
C.C

replication"10/8/11
Post by: Chet K on 2011-11-01, 13:10:58

A PLEA??

Un answered.............. there is something about that in
History...............?

Chet

replication"10/8/11

Chet:

I seem to recall a plea from you about how to establish a
measurement baseline for the thermal stuff. That's something for
you to discuss with the other participants in the threads on EF and
OU. After all, that's what this experiment is all about. Also, I am
not an expert and I'm not here to hold anybody's hand with
respect to thermal matters.

What I can say is that in all of the postings I have seen with
preliminary water temperature measurements, there hasn't been
one serious word spoken about how to really do your thermal
measurements.

Good luck,

MileHigh

replication"10/8/11
Post by: Chet K on 2011-11-03, 17:29:48

MH
I don't want to hold hands............

I do want to do proper Measurements ,I purchased a few items
that you recommended.
A killowatt meter and a resistance heater ,Some very smart and
learned fellows are getting into the mix!!
My plan is to Plug the resistance heater into the killowatt meter
and warm 1 liter of water
Note the Start temp
heat for 10 minutes
Note the power consumed and the finish Temp.

This will establish a baseline for Resistance heating ,then people
should be able to run similar tests with the Device and compare
speed to heat?

Hows this sound for starters??
I plan on doing this test tonight and posting it on Energetic ?

Thanks
Chet
PS
Comments or recommendations will be appreciated from anyone?

replication"10/8/11

Chet:

A few things that I can add include that you want your water
container to be as thermally isolated as possible. Sitting it on a
piece of Styrofoam should do it for you.

Your don't really have control over the thermal mass of the vessel
holding the water, but in the ideal case it would be as low as
possible. For example, a glass with a thin bottom would be much
better than a class with a thick bottom. In theory you can factor
in the thermal mass of the vessel but also in theory it's not
necessary based on the COP claims.

What's most important is that you guys start talking about these
issues.

When the COP claims are all disappointing I am wondering how
"Mr. C." will react. Will he just *poof* himself out of existence or
will he fall back to the "replication not accurate" argument. I know
that all of you are having fun but you are all being taken for a ride.

MileHigh

replication"10/8/1
Post by: Paul-R on 2011-11-04, 00:45:00

Your don't really have control over the thermal mass of the vessel holding the
water, but
in the ideal case it would be as low as possible. For example, a glass with a
thin bottom
would be much better than a class with a thick bottom.
This is excellent thinking for determining a precise COP, i.e.
working out whether the
COP is 3.4 or 3.7

At the moment, we could ignore the thermal mass of the vessel so
long as the water
is most of the mass of what gets heated, and the process is
relatively quick, a minute
or two, since heat will be lost by radiation.

The real key is having two bells which ring well, and which ring as
accurately as possible
to the local AC mains frequency - or an octave of this.

replication"10/8/11
Post by: Chet K on 2011-11-04, 02:45:42

1st I brought you a movie MH @all

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6QHIS34Ymw
---------------------------------------------------------

Repost from energetic

80 watts to raise 5 liters 13.5C /10 min
Had to use a bigger pail than one liter, used a 5 liter pail .
ran the resistance heater for ten minutes [constant stirring]
starting temp was 16c, killowatt meter registered .08 watts, finish
temp 29.5C

Benchmark for resistance type heat!
displacement: 5 liters
Time : 10 minutes
Total power: 80 watts
Temp rise : 13.5C

Tomorrow I will play with the container size to get it to 1 liter,I will
test any size/time you want for your particular rig..............

Chet
PS
I believe this to be an excellent format for this Testing?
suggestions welcome we want to do this right!!
If this device works as advertised this will become very obvious
and the testing should not have to be flawless??

--------------------------------------
MH excellent suggestions
Thank you
Chet

replication"10/8/11

The clip was the same old stuff. All wrong, the path of delusion.

replication"10/8/11
Post by: ION on 2011-11-04, 14:16:56

How I would do it:

Procure a small immersible fountain pump such as is sold by
Harbor Freight.

http://www.harborfreight.com/158-GPH-Miniature-Submersible-
Fountain-Pump-
68396.html?utm_medium=cse&utm_source=bingshopping&hft_ad
v=40014&mr:referralID=38e644d8-06e8-11e1-931b-
001b2166c2c0

Procure a vessel that will hold the desired amount of water, say 1
Liter.

Place the immersion pump into the vessel. The output of the pump
connects to the inlet of the Davey device (DUT).

The outlet of the Davey device goes back to the vessel.

Place a thermometer or thermo measuring instrument into the
vessel. Measure ambient temp with a second thermometer.

Run the pump with with no power applied to the DUT get a
baseline temperature. The pump can be plugged into the Kill A
Watt Meter to account for it's thermal contribution. There should
be a slight temperature rise over ambient. Note the power being
input.

When the system has stabilised, reset the Kill A Watt meter, and
turn on power to the DUT (also plug into Kill A watt meter)

Run for sufficient time to get a reasonable temperature rise over
the baseline.

End of this test. Note total elapsed power. You can subtract out
the baseline power or leave it in if you do the same thing for step
2.

Step 2: After the system has cooled to the baseline (pump always
running) Repeat the test with no power to the DUT and using an
immersion heater in the outboard vessel, plugged into the Kill A
Watt meter. How long did it take to achieve the same temperature
rise. What was the elapsed power input.

There are simple variations on the above, such as how you factor
in baseline power, but the system will be constantly stirred by the
immersion pump and you will always have a reasonable flow in
and out of the DUT.

You could also ignore the thermal contribution of the pump
motor and just use the equilibrium baseline temperature
with the pump running continuously i.e. there will be
thermal losses to the environment that will balance with
the heat input from the pump, settling at some baseline
value. This is your starting point for both tests.

You get the idea.

replication"10/8/11
Post by: Chet K on 2011-11-04, 16:14:24

No time now to read
repost from Energetic

@All
The 1 liter test brought up something unusual

Displacement 1 liter
Time 1 min
Total power 10 watts
Temp rise 7.4 degrees C

Notes : Due to proximity of heat element to container sides
sample was AGGRESSIVELY agitated for the entire test.

5 liter test was GENTLY stirred,

This needs to be explored much more for obvious reasons!!

Much more testing tonight!

------------------------------------------------
Ion
Thanks for the thoughts and the very good contribution!

At this moment all testing is being done with Resistance heat!!

It seems the water movement is a big issue!!
More testing tonight..............
Thanks again
Chet

replication"10/8/11
Post by: Chet K on 2011-11-05, 14:32:03

Well as soon as I posted some numbers at energetic
I had some folks do Math .............
Now Professor Savic has commented [the math was wrong [Very}]
As well as the instruments / technique for calculating .

This has just gotten much better!! [this guy knows his stuff]

\More to follow

Chet

replication"10/8/11

...

@All
The 1 liter test brought up something unusual

Displacement 1 liter
Time 1 min
Total power 10 watts
Temp rise 7.4 degrees C
...

Power for a 7.4c rise of the temperature of 1 liter:
P = 1000 * 7.4 * 4.184/60 = 516W

=> COP=51,6

Not bad...
With such a huge COP, it is easy to loop the circuit with a Stirling
engine driving an alternator...

replication"10/8/11

Chet:

(http://i42.tinypic.com/2rmsj5t.png)

Your concerns about the graph are well founded because the graph
makes no sense at all.

That's the death knell of "Mr. 'C'" - can you hear the sound of the
ringing?

I don't want to spoil your fun but I'm assuming that at some point
someone is going to have had enough and challenge Mr. "C." It's
starting to feel like another "social experiment."

MileHigh

replication"10/8/11
Post by: Chet K on 2011-11-07, 02:15:43

MH
There is word in the background [not on the forum] from someone
who has been feverishly playing with this and wishes to remain
anonymous!
It is THAT device which I will be replicating ,The stainless thermos
from ikea being the chassis ?

Heck MH I'm still having fun !!

@Exnihiloest
I just did the test ,I have No idea whatsoever how to do the math
you have shown ,Or what it means........
The only thing I can do is use this time to heat as a Half assed
baseline for this new device??
I thank you Gentlemen for taking the time to respond !!

I will start building the device which I am told goes off the chart in
COP tomorrow [once I get the specs]

Thank you
Chet
PS
BTW
I will be posting test data on the device as well as following ION's
test procedure as closely as possible [for comparison]

replication"10/8/11

@Exnihiloest
I just did the test ,I have No idea whatsoever how to do the math you have
shown ,Or what it means........
...

I can't believe it :). I have just calculated the "academic" power to
raise by 7.4 celsius degrees the temperature of 1 liter of water, in
1 minute. And the result is 516W, i.e. 51.6 times the power that
you gave previously (10 W), therefore 51.6 is the COP of your
possible OU setup.

Here is a simple method:
You need around 70 W/minute, by liter and by degree.
You just have to multiply. For instance, to raise by 17 celsius
degrees 0.5 liter of water, you need a power of 70 * 17 * 0.5 =
595 W during 1 minute.
(or you would need 595/3 W during 3 minutes, or 595*2 W during
1/2 minute and so on...)

replication"10/8/11
Post by: Chet K on 2011-11-08, 14:07:22

Exnihiloest
Thank you for explaining!!
A question, Where is unity for heating water?? Is that possible to
answer?? Is there Data available to show this ?
A super Duper line in the sand where once it is crossed ti becomes
obvious that something unusual is taking place??

Thank you
Chet
PS
I'll be posting more tests in the next few days ,this time of the
devices performance.

Title: Serbian Professor "Savic" Sonic Boiler Replication COP 12
Post by: Chet K on 2011-11-12, 21:13:06

Testing question??
I am getting prepared to run some tests on 220 volts.

Since this will be a pure resistance application how will I test this
without buying a special killowatt meter?
Can I just use 2 110 V killowatt meters one on each leg and then
connect them to the device on the other side?? [phasing issues??]
???
Of course I'll just add total watts consumed together for my input
power.
Am I making sense here ?
Comments please

Thanks
Chet
PS
I am actually building two devices that run this way one is a 110
device the other is a replication from an anonymous experimenter
of Savics boiler but made from stainless and running on 220 here


Title: Re: Serbian Professor Savic Sonic water heater replication COP
12
Post by: muDped on 2011-11-13, 02:34:47

You may find this report
(http://www.earthtech.org/experiments/sparkly/report.html)
interesting.

12
Post by: Chet K on 2011-11-16, 18:19:38

Dumped
Thank you for the link ,very cool ![or hot]
Thanks to the fellows here I have a fairly acceptable test
Procedure!!
And I am having fun...............
The Savic device is going up to Bat shortly!!

Here
Chet
PS
Farrah ......... and Grumpy
I build Now !!

Title: Re: Serbian Professor Savic Replication level 1
Post by: Chet K on 2011-12-01, 23:01:19

Test of new setup!
Hi,

Daemanbarts replication
please look and comment [Math??]

------------------------------------

50 liter of water rise 30 deg celsius in one h, = 1500 X 4,18 =
6270 kJ
6270 / 3600 = 1,74 kWh

Input energy 360W = 360 Wh = 0.360 kwH

COP = 1,74 / 0,360 = 4,83

True COP = 4,83 X 1,2 = 5,8 (I have about 20% loss from test
tank)

This setup based on IKEA thermos.

Kind rgds D

12

Chet:
Quote
50 liter of water rise 30 deg celsius in one h
Quote
COP = 1,74 / 0,360 = 4,83
Quote

It all sounds very impressive but I have never seen a 50 liter
thermos, have you? Perhaps it's a language issue? How come
apparently nobody has asked him for pictures? My cynical side
says to me that perhaps "Daemonbart" is a shill for "Mr. C" or is an
alter-ego of "Mr. C."

Quoting Slovenia:
Quote
This device does work! The problem is having the smarts to harness it's power
and apply it in a real life application. This device makes a lot of heat and with
pulsed DC current, a lot of hydrogen. This device makes a lot of heat even
when not tuned properly. When tuned properly to the prescribed values, it
make a lot of heat very efficiently. So, we know the device works, what do we
do with it?

I have been glancing at the thread and except for alleged data
from "Daemonbart" I haven't seen any real data from you or
Slovenia or any of the other contributors to the thread. If you
guys are trying to be serious then in my opinion Slovenia should
retract his statement because it is way too premature. You guys
need three separate replications with real data, multiple runs per
replication. photographs and documentation on how you made
your measurements, etc, etc. In other words, at the same level of
a Grade 12 chemistry lab report.

On the other hand, if this is all some kind of fantasy play for you
and you just want to have fun until you get bored of the whole
thing, then carry on.

MileHigh

12
Post by: Chet K on 2011-12-04, 18:21:04

MH
I posted the math for scrutiny ,Is it accurate ? In other words,

Can the information presented..... be used in this formula ,to
accurately state this Ikea thermos mounted inside a 50 liter vessel
is going OU??

Thanka
Chet

12

Chet,

Stay safe and make sure you use a GFCI outlet for your
experiments. Water and electricity are very dangerous, that's why
those outlets are placed in bathrooms and the kitchen, near
possible sources of water.

12
Post by: Chet K on 2011-12-04, 20:12:09

Thanks EM

I have worked all my life around water and electricity... BIG
D.C.600 volts Zillion amps [subway Third Rail and wet diamond
core drilling] electricity............
But you are correct ...........

BTW
This device I am posting stats on ............

It works better than advertised ,I am hoping one of the replicators
can Man up and do the right thing?
However we have enough info now to get it working??

We shall see............

12

Chet:

The math was fine and it's all based on the fact that it takes 4.19
(Some say 4.18) Joules of energy to produce one Calorie of heat
energy. I know math is not your strong suit so I suggest that you
work with your friends on the thread to make a step-by-step
template for yourself so you can simply punch in the numbers and
get your results.

I am not sure what an "Ikea thermos mounted inside a 50 liter
vessel" really means. Daemonbart seems to be implying a "30
liter thermos" in his posting, which I can't understand but like I
said perhaps English is not his native language.

Your preliminary calculations were based on a single tick of your
Kill-a-Watt meter and you may recall that I posted that the fewer
ticks your Kill-a-Watt meter makes the less accurate it is. I
suggested that your results should be based on at least 100 ticks
of the Kill-a-Watt meter to be accurate. Perhaps you can come up
with some kind of strategy to compensate or work around this
issue with your associates on the thread.

Nor have I seen any attempt by anyone on the thread to deal with
the issue of the thermal mass of the container itself. You are
never just heating up water, you are also heating up the container
holding the water. If you guys collectively ignore that issue so be
it.

Nor have I seen anyone discuss their methods for thermally
isolating their experiment from the outside world, whether that be
isolating the bottom of your container from a table top or
whatever. How can you possibly do thermal tests without even
discussing this important issue on your thread?

Also, trying to make an estimate of your margin of error is critical
in any experiment. i.e., "I calculate my COP as 1.7 +/- 20%," or
whatever, but I know that's a tall request because you almost
never ever see that on the forums for any experiments, period.

In my way of thinking, "part of the fun" is to tackle these issues
and do better experiments.

Anyway, three replications from three different experimenters with
multiple runs per replication, photographs, documenting of the
procedures followed, control runs with a standard water heater,
where each experimental run's data is crunched down to a COP
value would be a reasonable requirement for this proposition. To
be a pain, I will state again, produce reports comarable to a Grade
12 chemistry lab experiment. I don't think that's asking for too
much.

By the way, what happened to the standard little resistive "coffee
cup" water heater that you said you purchased? I saw some
pictures of a 110 VAC light bulb immersed in a big jar filled with
water. What's up with that?

Sorry for the "scolding" but it never hurts for you guys to push
yourselves to do better and get better results. If nobody asks
Daeomonbart for the stuff I listed above then I don't know what to
say. All that I can hope for is that you do real experiments and
get past saying that your data is preliminary, it's time for all of you
to start doing definitive experiments and stand by your data. If
you don't get to that point, the thread will just meander and go
nowhere, and sink lower and lower until it is off the front page for
good and dies.

MileHigh

12
Post by: Chet K on 2011-12-04, 22:38:32

MH
Don't be like the guy that went up to Michael Angelo when He was
Priming the Sistine Chapel ceiling and said
""Hey, I thought you said you could Paint""

I am doing no more than establishing the very beginning steps of
how we will do Calorimetry!

An Offshoot of that was for the fellows doing experiments with the
Wesley team device.
They are Running Light bulbs ,And are having a hard time
establishing power in power out measurements [impossible IMO]
so I suggested just plug your rig into a Killowatt meter configure
your light bulb the way that I did , and do a test run ,Hot water
and no reading on the Killowatt meter would give some credence
to
Further Scrutiny ...............

Back to my Boiler testing,

My methods are just fine for a baseline.Once we start testing
Tuned Rigs that are supposed to heat water 500% faster... the
rest will fall into place.

One problem I would like to ask about is that Killowatt meter
needing to have more of a run for accuracy ?? I diminished my
Container size to 1 liter because others
commented the need to "Get it done" fast for environmental Loss
issues?[and rightly so]
I do however like to play with one liter of water as there is so
much published Data for comparison on heating one liter..........

I don't feel like doing a closed Calorimetry vessel !
especially since at the claimed efficiencies it should be
Moot............If I bring one liter to boil in 5 minutes with my
Teapot heater and do the same thing in One minute with
the serbian boiler at the same input power
Case Closed.............

Thanks for looking and any comments are always appreciated
[especially with the Math,I only have so many Toes !=,.}

Chet

12

Chet:
Quote
One problem I would like to ask about is that Killowatt meter needing to have
more of a run for accuracy ?? I diminished my Container size to 1 liter because
others
commented the need to "Get it done" fast for environmental Loss issues?[and
rightly so]
I do however like to play with one liter of water as there is so much published
Data for comparison on heating one liter........

They are dead wrong about getting it done faster with a smaller
container being the better way to go. The larger the container the
higher the ratio of volume to surface area. Therefore you should
get inherently better results with a larger container. With the high
power levels you are working with, there should be no problem
working with larger volumes of water. But even with a larger
container if you're not going to try to do at least some basic
thermal isolation then it looks really bad for you as an
experimenter. Even if you think it won't matter because of your
allegedly high COP, you should still try to address the thermal
isolation issues. My God, you can't just get some lousy bubble
wrap and wrap two layers (not one!) of it around your container?
Quote
especially since at the claimed efficiencies it should be Moot............If I bring
one liter to boil in 5 minutes with my Teapot heater and do the same thing in
One minute with
the serbian boiler at the same input power

You wish, but let's see if anybody on the team asks Daemonbart
about the details about his tests that generated his magic COP
number. Don't be surprised if his test and measurement
procedure has more holes in it than a Swiss cheese. You guys
have to break the pattern of blindly accepting your peer's over
unity claims like a bunch of drones. You are one of the worst
offenders when it comes to that Chet.

Look at this quote from the user Ares123:
Quote
Deamonbart claims good results but he does not show us measurements(not
that he should, but would be nice)

Wake up boys, Daemonbart has just upset the laws of the
Universe and he doesn't have to show his measurements? Are you
guys in a Marx Brother's movie or are you trying to be serious and
scientific here?

MileHigh

12
Post by: Chet K on 2011-12-04, 23:40:35

Measuring twice... Marking with a crayon.... and cutting with an ax
Until I see a good reason to put down the hatchet..............

This isn't claimed to be a few percent better than conventional
systems
Its 100's of percent better............
I will leave the flea nose hair micrometer in the glass case for
now!!

Just for now.....
Thanks
Chet

12

Chet:
Quote
I will leave the flea nose hair micrometer in the glass case for now!!

That's fine but if nobody questions Daemonbart about his results
and just accepts them because he made a 10-line posting then the
whole thing is a farce and you may as well pack it in.

MileHigh

Title: Re: Serbian Professor "Savic" Sonic Boiler Replication COP 12
Post by: Paul-R on 2011-12-05, 18:24:08

Testing question??
I am getting prepared to run some tests on 220 volts.

Since this will be a pure resistance application how will I test this without
buying a special killowatt meter?
Can I just use 2 110 V killowatt meters one on each leg and then connect
them to the device on the other side?? [phasing issues??] ???
Of course I'll just add total watts consumed together for my input power.
Am I making sense here ?
Comments please

Thanks
Chet
PS
I am actually building two devices that run this way one is a 110 device the
other is a replication from an anonymous experimenter of Savics boiler but
made from stainless and running on 220 here

Here is a spreadsheet which has been applied to your
EnergeticForum #1166 results.
Runs 5, 6 and 7 seem to show improvements as the gap is
reduced. It would be good
to see the current and voltage measurements.

12

Dumped
Thank you for the link ,very cool ![or hot]
Thanks to the fellows here I have a fairly acceptable test Procedure!!
And I am having fun...............
The Savic device is going up to Bat shortly!!

Here
Chet
PS
Farrah ......... and Grumpy
I build Now !!

Thanks, Chet -- I went to the EF link and did some reading.
Sounds interesting, needing replications / careful measurements.

Slovenia says, with alacrity:
Quote
We have a lot of smart minds on this thread. This is a very easy device to
make. It's not at all complicated. Many of you are so intelligent that you can't
believe in this device because of it's simplicity. Even my untuned American pop
can with a European sized ring boiled water very fast. I wanted to jump the
gun and see what this device would do. Even though simple, we have all the
necessary information to replicate this device and have something very good to
use. So, my recommendation is to build the device to the inventor's specs first
before you try something else. I would suggest using either stainless steel or
titanium for the ring however. The tin can metal ring I made was for proof of
concept only and it got rusty while being used during the first trial.

So I'd like to try this. Uses calorimetry for measuring heat
output, energy output, which I like.
Now, Chet, can you point me to HOW to build this? any
instructions? my email, emdevice12@yahoo.com
I have "American pop cans", but how about the required ring and
how it is set up, and how one "tunes" it... sounds fun. Note
though, I'm from Missouri...

12
Post by: Chet K on 2011-12-05, 23:35:29

Holy cow
Paul
Is that my test data??

Collated and correlated ??
??

WOW!!
Wait till Slovenia sees this!!
Thanks!!

@Steve
I will be Emailing you.............
Paul
It would be good if you can PM your Email to me!!

12
Post by: Paul-R on 2011-12-05, 23:46:07

Holy cow
Paul
Is that my test data??

Collated and correlated ??
??

That's all your research results culled from Post 1166 on Energetic
forum.
I would have put the spreadsheet there, but they don't allow
spreadsheet
attachments for some reason.

I put in your latest result (50 litres, 30 deg C etc), and it confirms
your result of COP 4.84

Excellent stuff, Ramset.

12

Paul-R:
Quote
I put in your latest result (50 litres, 30 deg C etc), and it confirms your result
of COP 4.84

Do you have that information somewhere because it's not in the
spreadsheet you posted?

I looked at the spreadhseet that you posted in reply #238 and it's
got an unusual set of data points:
Quote
- Heat generated- - Run 1 - - Run 2 -
Litres = 2.00 200.00
Temp rise = 21.00 30.00

Heat, Joules, = 175560.00 25080000.00

- Electric supplied -
Current, I =
Voltage, V = 110.00 110.00
Time, secs = 600.00

Elect, Joules, = 0.00 0.00

COP = #DIV/0! #DIV/0!

Elec, KWH 0.06 0.08
COP = 0.81 87.08

You go from 0.06 KWh to heat 2 liters by 21 degrees to 0.08 KWh
to heat 200 liters by 30 degrees. In both cases the gap is listed as
2 mm. The COP goes from 0.81 to 87.08. It doesn't make sense.

As I said before, KWh measurements of 0.03, 0.05, 0.06 etc are
not accurate enough to work with. You have to figure out how to
make more accurate power measurements with the existing Kill-a-
Watt meter somehow or find a work-around or go to a different
measuring scheme or something. The problem is not going to go
away by ignoring it.

MileHigh

12
Post by: Paul-R on 2011-12-06, 15:55:18

Paul-R:

Do you have that information somewhere because it's not in the spreadsheet
you posted?

I looked at the spreadhseet that you posted in reply #238 and it's got an
unusual set of data points:

You go from 0.06 KWh to heat 2 liters by 21 degrees to 0.08 KWh to heat 200
liters by 30 degrees. In both cases the gap is listed as 2 mm. The COP goes
from 0.81 to 87.08. It doesn't make sense.

As I said before, KWh measurements of 0.03, 0.05, 0.06 etc are not accurate
enough to work with. You have to figure out how to make more accurate
power measurements with the existing Kill-a-Watt meter somehow or find a
work-around or go to a different measuring scheme or something. The
problem is not going to go away by ignoring it.

MileHigh
That data is in a previous post above, #228, not on the
spreadsheet.

You are quite right about the COP of 87. The litres capacity got set
as 200 by mistake. Sorry about
that. If people alter the 200 to 2, it will go right.

I agree that the KWH measurements should be more accurate. It
would be good to see measurments
of the exact local voltage (which can vary across the day, and
often in the ad breaks of popular TV
programmes as people rush out to put on their kettles) and the AC
current.

Also, and MOST IMPORTANT, it is essential that before
temperature readings are taken, the vessel
is stirred very thoroughly to ensure that the temperature is
uniform.

Paul-R

12

Chet:
Quote
RAMSET

A nice Vid about Resonance

Resonance The Truth - YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8iUUbuTBuY

Chet

lol You are so funny, you are never going to give up on your
fantasies and dreams about resonance, are you?

If only they were true!!!!!

MileHigh

12

"I don't know why this hasn't been discovered yet"...

Because there is nothing interesting there.

Is there any wonder why some folks just don't respond to such
claims?

Could it be the shear volume of repeated claims from newbies and
folks totally outside of their normal experience?

He assumes there is no current flow because there is only one
wire. If he had the correct equipment and know-how he would be
able to measure the current flowing from the signal generator to
the circuit (and back).

This video is more about capacitance than resonance.

12
Post by: Chet K on 2011-12-12, 21:14:05

Sometimes I feel like a one legged man in an ASss Kickin contest?

Here is the rest Of the story [Paul Harvey]

Tinsel Koala
Response To the above Vid

Very nice work, Brian ! You are on the right track, IMHO.

However, you have a couple of things to think about and to test.

There is a ground, probably. Most function generators and other
bench equipment like oscilloscopes will have their chassis ground
wired to the ground plug of the 3-wire line cord (the green wire).
Even the neutral wire (the white one) can wind up providing a
ground to earth in some cases. This means, at the relatively high
frequencies you are dealing with, you are surrounded by the
system ground in your house wiring and the Earth. This, by the
way, is how Tesla coil enthusiasts manage to light up 25 watt
incandescent bulbs with only one wire connected to anything. Your
handheld meter won't show any power coming from the function
generator thru the one wire -- it's optimized for a much lower AC
frequency, but there are ways to show that there is, using your
oscilloscope.

You might be surprised on how much your stray wiring "layout"
will affect things, even at 5 MHz. May I suggest the following:
First, before changing anything, try to figure out some way to
isolate (just for this one test) your function generator from your
housewiring ground. If you have a computer UPS, you can try
running the FG with it (unplugged from the line of course!) for a
few minutes. See if you are still able to tune in and light the LEDs.
Second, scope the signal at the big red LED -- if your FG ground is
still isolated you should be able to do this and still tune in the
power. I'd like to see the waveform here.

If you look at my YT channel you can find a couple of videos that
are relevant to your work.

(Nice little coils by the way. I wonder why you used syringes,
rather than, say, toilet paper rolls or medicine bottles.)

------------------------------------------------------------------
THX
Chet

12

Chet,

Please don't take offense from my rant. It wasn't meant for you.

It just becomes tiring to see the same 'great' discoveries over and
over. Sometimes I wonder if these folks do any checking before
making claims.

There is lots of weird stuff out there for folks to rediscover. No
matter how weird it may seem a little research should happen
before the repeated embarrassing YouTube video.

12
Post by: Chet K on 2011-12-13, 00:28:30

Wave watcher
No offence ,a mere Bruise............

I have to have thick skin in this game!!
Thanks For looking and commenting!!

Chet

12
Post by: Chet K on 2011-12-19, 23:48:08

Some Numbas

I have done many temperature tests and doing it almost everyday!
I will post the requested data later today.. 60l temp rise in 5 min
with 1kW input.

That will be the same as 83Wh, with""" resistance heater""" and no
loss the water should rise 0,87 K, in real it will rise only 0,7x0,87
= 0,6 K

We will see what I can do with my sonic setup

Kind rgds D

Results!
I promised to post results for """sonic boiler:""""

5 min 1kW, temp rise in 60l water: total input from grid = 83 Wh,
temp rise = 4,2 K. Result with resistance heater 0,6 K. COP =
4,2/0,6 = 7

Kind rgds D

------------------------------
Summary

Identical Input power...... Identical time Same volume of water

Resistance heater temp rise 0.87k Cop= 0.6

Sonic boiler temp rise 4.2k Cop = 7

Thanks
Chet

12
Post by: Paul-R on 2011-12-20, 01:08:41

60l temp rise in 5 min with 1kW input............the water should rise 0,87 K

Are you measuring the water in litres and the temperature in
degrees K ?

If so, what is your specific heat?

If you are using 4.18, then you need to use cc (or litres and
multiply by
1000) and degrees centigrade.

Paul-R

12
Post by: Chet K on 2011-12-20, 02:12:40

Paul
I am not sure what "K" is?

However if the same equation is used for both calculations

??

The short story is
HOLY COW!!!! :o :o :o :o :o :o [thats a 6 shocked smiley's out of
a possible 10]

Thanks
Chet

12

Energy delivered = (1000 J/s) x (5 min) x (60 s/min) = 300 000
Joules

Specific Heat of water = 4.186 Joules/gram/degree C (or degree
K) (STP conditions)

60 liters of water = 60 x (1000 grams/ liter) = 60 000 grams.

Temperature change = (300 000 J) / (4.186) / (60 000) = 1.194
deg C, or K

So, if you raised the water by 4.2 deg K, then that would be a
good indicator of OU. Good job.

EM

PS, I wonder if any exotermic reactions occur in the water to
account for this excess heat? :-\

12
Post by: Chet K on 2011-12-20, 13:42:34

EM
You have always been an inspiration!
As always with these types of things,People have a lot to think
about [the inventors] ?
In this case however ...its not just one inventor ...its not even one
device...
Its a combination of The TK ,Tiger, Whatever device?? but instead
of feeding a light Bulb
He's feeding the boiler...................

Amazing stuff happening here!!

Thanks
Chet

12
Post by: Paul-R on 2011-12-20, 13:51:57

Paul
I am not sure what "K" is?

However if the same equation is used for both calculations

Sorry, folks. I've got this wrong. I read degrees F when you said
degrees K,
which is fine since we are looking at a temperature difference, and
effectively
degrees K and degrees C amount to the same thing.

I thought you were mixing European and American units by using
litres
with degrees Fahrenheit, (which could be done if you work out
what
your rather peculair specific heat is going to be).

Sorry, again.

Paul-R

12
Post by: Chet K on 2011-12-20, 22:31:01

No Problem Paul

@MH
I had Breakfast with an old friend today,We started talking about
things to do with OU,..We had never really done this before
I tend to keep that side of my life private .
Any Hoo we got to talking about Tesla and I mentioned
Wardenclyffe tower In Shoreham Long island,He said Funny you
should Mention that
" Did you ever hear of Stamford White?".... He owned the house
up the street,... I was very best friends with his grandson all my
life!!

Stamford White was the architect for Tesla's wardenclyffe project
,He's very friendly with the whole family.......

We Talked about Niagra falls Wireless transmission of power to
run a Pierce arrow and how Niagra falls power plant was the kitty
Hawk of electricity generation technology,

And now we see Mars travel and beyond for kitty hawks time line
,But when we walk in the door at Niagra falls ,... we still see
ancient generators that have evolved to ?? ?? ?? Well actually they
haven't evolved much at all,Looks like a Museum ,but its not......
its state of the art ancient technology?? ??

We just sat there and felt real stupid for being such fools!!!!!!!!

Not any more!!

There is change in the wind!!
Thanks for looking
Chet
PS
Latest test results

Summary




Thanks
Chet

12

Chet:

The last round of reported results from Daemonbart were
confusing and unclear. Even if there is a language barrier he or
she should still be able to present coherent data that makes sense
and is readily understandable. That person failed to do that and
then to make matters worse they made mention that their
techniques and processes were "secret." You are supposed to be
on an open-source forum and working together and then you see
something like that pulled-off by someone and of course nobody
says anything. Why you guys on that thread wear self-imposed
politically correct straightjackets is baffling to me. Challenging
each other with respect to your data and methods is all part of a
healthy debate where you end up learning more. The discussion is
sick when junk data is presented and nobody says anything.

I will repeat what I have already said: The data should be
presented in a manner comparable with a Grade 12 chemistry lab
report. I really don't think that is asking for too much.

Meanwhile, quoting the "guru:"
Quote
Message from Mr. "C"

December 23, 2011

This is sonic boiler:
Sonic the boiler resonance device is ostensibly a simple but very complex to
understand as a Tesla coil.
*Sonic boiler drains the energy of high-frequency quarter-wavelength from the
system transmits high-frequency and low frequency in the system as heat.
*The vacuum is full of neutrinos.
Sonic boiler draws energy neutrinos (Tesliona) high frequency.
Neutrinos originate from our sun and hit the crystal lattice of metal and break
out of the last electron orbital.
*Electron for a moment lost in kavntnom field (leave this dimension) and cried
when he returns to collapse with him seven times more energy than he
received.
*It is this energy that captures the resonance.
Diameter electrodes sonic boiler is a quarter wavelength, which he catches a
current frequency of 50 Hz is only its excitation frequency.
Neutrinos are like sound waves moving particle pushes the particle.
And because the sonic Boiler tunes as playing a musical instrument at 50 Hz.
Sonic boiler a musical instrument not only heater.
Because God is an artist not only a scientist.
The higher the frequency of excitation current and higher voltage streuje boiler
and pressure, the greater the COP sonic boiler.
This is why Tesla did with high voltages and high frequencies so that the more
free energy catching environment.
Tesla says, "Each generation of electricity and transmission resonances without
the dead weight loss."
Energy is free and therefore should give people free to use.
Declare this my explanation on energetic forum.
I wish all a Happy New *2012 and Christmas holidays
prof.Savi, Serbia.

Now, a reality check:
Quote
A neutrino (play /njutrino/; Italian pronunciation: [neutrino]) is an
electrically neutral, weakly interacting elementary subatomic particle[1] with a
half-integer spin, chirality and a disputed but small non-zero mass. It is able to
pass through ordinary matter almost unaffected. The neutrino (meaning "small
neutral one" in Italian) is denoted by the Greek letter (nu).

Neutrinos do not carry electric charge, which means that they are not affected
by the electromagnetic forces that act on charged particles such as electrons
and protons. Neutrinos are affected only by the weak sub-atomic force, of
much shorter range than electromagnetism, and gravity, which is relatively
weak on the subatomic scale, and are therefore able to travel great
distances through matter without being affected by it.

MileHigh

12
Post by: Chet K on 2011-12-23, 17:43:35

MH
The Device is "Going to the Doctor" For testing!!
Arangements are being made to get it to the Highest level of
scrutiny possible!

I cannot argue One single point from your post above ,all I can tell
you is it is going to the next [and Last]level
Of Scrutiny...........[at great financial cost I might add]
And yes, the intent is absolutely open source!!

100 percent!!

Thanks For looking,
Chet

12

A little bit more of a reality check on Neutrinos:
Quote
The history of a particle that appeared to have no charge and no mass is an
interesting one. The electron neutrino (a lepton) was first postulated in 1930
by Wolfgang Pauli to explain why the electrons in beta decay were not emitted
with the full reaction energy of the nuclear transition. The apparent violation of
conservation of energy and momentum was most easily avoided by postulating
another particle. Enrico Fermi called the particle a neutrino and developed a
theory of beta decay based on it, but it was not experimentally observed until
1956. This elusive particle, with no charge and almost no mass, could
penetrate vast thicknesses of material without interaction. The mean free
path of a neutrino in water would be on the order of 10x the distance
from the Earth to the Sun.

Quote
The Sudbury Neutrino Observatory (SNO) results have provided revolutionary
insight into the properties of neutrinos and the core of the sun. The detector,
shown in the artist's conception below, was built 6800 feet under ground, in
INCO's Creighton mine near Sudbury, Ontario, Canada. SNO was a heavy-
water Cherenkov detector designed to detect neutrinos produced by fusion
reactions in the sun. It used 1000 tonnes of heavy water loaned from Atomic
Energy of Canada Limited (AECL), and contained by a 12 meter diameter
acrylic vessel. Neutrinos reacted with the heavy water (D2O) to produce
flashes of light called Cherenkov radiation. This light was then detected by an
array of 9600 photomultiplier tubes mounted on a geodesic support structure
surrounding the heavy water vessel. The detector was immersed in light
(normal) water within a 30 meter barrel-shaped cavity (the size of a 10 story
building!) excavated from Norite rock. Located in the deepest part of the mine,
the overburden of rock shielded the detector from cosmic rays. The detector
laboratory, still functioning as part of the new SNOLAB facility, is extremely
clean to reduce background signals from radioactive elements present in the
mine dust which would otherwise hide the very weak signal from neutrinos.
Plans are currently underway to upgrade the SNO detector for the new SNO+
experiment.

So neutrinos are nearly massless particles that are electrically
neutral that are so tiny that they can travel right through the
planet Earth with almost no chance whatsoever of hitting anything.
When a neutrino does actually hit the nucleus of an atom then the
atom emits a tiny tiny tiny amount of electromagnetic radiation
that can only be seen with special tubes that amplify light signals.

I didn't dig far enough but if I recall correctly the Sudbury
experiment might get a few neutrino collisions per month.

So when "Mr. C." says this, "Sonic boiler draws energy neutrinos
(Tesliona) high frequency," he is full of crap.

If somebody can actually do the experiment properly and present
the data coherently you will see that the COP you can get from
turning electrical energy into heat energy using water as the
resistive element should be close to one, but never greater than
one.

MileHigh

12
Post by: Chet K on 2011-12-23, 19:27:13

MH
You have a right to your opinion ,Your request for more testing
with the rigor required to give something beyond a Kindergarden
level understanding ??
Well I have to say Sometimes you have such a Knack for stating
the "Profoundly obvious" course that should be pursued?

Be assured something Bizzare is happening .... Whether its
Neutrino's Or Flavor Shavers ?
I really don't care ....as long as it is safe??

Chet

12
Post by: leo48 on 2011-12-23, 22:19:47

:)
Hi all
Quite often they say something stupid not to say really as a work
;D

Leo48

12

Chet:

You are implying that you personally are paying a lab or someone
else to test this? If that is the case that would imply that you
don't have much faith in what's going on on the OU thread.

I might state the "profoundly obvious" but only because it's not
not being stated elsewhere. Is the thread on OU like going to see
a sci-fi movie where to enjoy the movie you "suspend your
disbelief?" In other words you know it's all just "adult free energy
fantasy play," just for fun?

I thought that you were trying to be serious in that thread. The
thread started out with the serious intention to investigate the
alleged over unity phenomenon.
Quote
Be assured something Bizzare is happening

Here in a sense we agree but we are talking about different
things! The whole thread is bizarre and what's real is the actual
experiment. Do the experiment properly and the reality will
overcome the bizarreness.

MileHigh

12

If there is extra "apparent" energy in these experiments it
wouldn't surprise me if some sort of exothermic reaction is taking
place.

After all, current is flowing through the water and this facilitates
chemical reactions. I wonder, is the dissociation of H20 producing
any heat? Is the recombination of the products producing any
extra heat? Is there some other chemical reaction that takes
place and is exothermic? Very possible.

This is also very similar to creating a very hot spark, and realizing
there might be more energy than is accounted for by the flow of
electricity alone. Why sure, electricity provides the ignition and
other reactions take place under those hot conditions.

Bottom line, the electric energy injected into these devices is only
a fraction of the total energy because exothermic chemical
reactions are taking place. If we account for all of these
reactions, we will always have energy input = energy output, and
that's OK.

EM

PS. If we don't realize these facts and chose to keep our blinders
on, we might as well say that a camp fire is a free energy device,
or a gasoline engine is a free energy device, if we focus our
attention on only the electricity that goes into the spark plugs!

12
Post by: Chet K on 2011-12-24, 15:54:08

EM
One thing he has remarked about is his extreme loss of water from
his open systems,He has shared this on the forum also.

He is feverishly trying to understand what is going on,he is by no
means a garage mechanic... I believe he has even Graduated
Kindergarten.[Chet stabs MH In the toe !!:.]
The devices are running at much more out than in ....How this is
being done will hopefully be understood
once the university gets the testing done.[soon I hope].

One thing is for sure ,we could all use the extra Heat right now!!
Have a great holiday!!
Chet
PS
A brief history of events at the forum

Serbian Professor Savic shares an old Tesla Device he is using to
heat his Home with a new Internet friend "Slovenia"
Slovenia shares the device at Energetic..{this was not supposed tp
happen] Slovenia missunderstood that this was
Private info,[the Serbian is trying to patent a device loosely based
on this Tech] Since it takes weeks for the Professor to realize what
has happened ,,,,He deals with it And Continues to be involved
Albeit "Mildly"
Well If you've been following you know That Mr.ikea Comes in
with an automated Tuning rig that works Like a charm

I have some Info on this .... [Generic Info }
And Since the last few Weeks we have been trying to Figure a way
to open source...
So it cannot be stolen or Used for personal gain at great loss to
this Community and of course The inventors.

There is a working plan for this [open source]that Involves
"Scrutiny"

Others here can Add more to this But that is all I will say for
Now........
Cept
Happy Holiday!!

12

@Emdevices
Quote
If there is extra "apparent" energy in these experiments it wouldn't surprise me
if some sort of exothermic reaction is taking place.

I would agree, the common argument made by some is that no
device can produce excess energy however this short sighted
argument relies solely on the fact that the system must remain
closed. It is akin to placing a heat pump inside a closed box and
stating "you see this is proof there is no excess energy" however
this supposed proof relies on context. It should be obvious that if
the imaginary closed box many people choose to create was open
then a person could easily input 1 watt of electrical energy and
output 5 watts of energy as heat and the "extra" energy is from
the external environment outside the imaginary box.
It should be noted that much of this nonsense of assuming all
systems are closed relates back to the work of Maxwell who stated
that none of his calculations or equations would consider external
forces. That is, in his original work he states catagorically for all to
see that no external forces will be considered in any way. This is
not because they do not exist it is because Maxwell understood
that one can never know all the external forces which may exist at
any given point in time or place nor the infinite number of
reactions which may take place because of them.

Personally it seems rather odd that the first thing most people
would tend to do is create an imaginary box around any given
device and pretend the whole world if not the whole universe has
magically ceased to exist, lol, I cannot imagine the extent of
delusion required to do such a thing. This mental disorder also
extends to matter itself and many tend to imagine that matter
must somehow magically become benign or inert simply because it
constitutes some part of a device. If there is one thing we know as
a fact, one thing that cannot be denied, it is that all matter and
space contains massive amounts of energy in whatever form it
may take and that this energy is in continuous motion. When we
stop pretending everything we cannot see does not exist and
creating imaginary boxes around everything it becomes relatively
easy to understand that there is no energy crisis only a complete
failure to understand something we already know intuitively as
fact, we are swimming in a sea of energy.
Regards
AC

12

EM
One thing he has remarked about is his extreme loss of water from his open
systems,He has shared this on the forum also.

He is feverishly trying to understand what is going on,he is by no means a
garage mechanic... I believe he has even Graduated Kindergarten.[Chet stabs
MH In the toe !!:.]
The devices are running at much more out than in ....How this is being done
will hopefully be understood
once the university gets the testing done.[soon I hope].

One thing is for sure ,we could all use the extra Heat right now!!
Have a great holiday!!
Chet
PS
A brief history of events at the forum

Serbian Professor Savic shares an old Tesla Device he is using to heat his
Home with a new Internet friend "Slovenia"
Slovenia shares the device at Energetic..{this was not supposed tp happen]
Slovenia missunderstood that this was
Private info,[the Serbian is trying to patent a device loosely based on this Tech]
Since it takes weeks for the Professor to realize what has happened ,,,,He deals
with it And Continues to be involved Albeit "Mildly"
Well If you've been following you know That Mr.ikea Comes in with an
automated Tuning rig that works Like a charm

I have some Info on this .... [Generic Info }
And Since the last few Weeks we have been trying to Figure a way to open
source...
So it cannot be stolen or Used for personal gain at great loss to this
Community and of course The inventors.

There is a working plan for this [open source]that Involves "Scrutiny"

Others here can Add more to this But that is all I will say for Now........
Cept
Happy Holiday!!

Excellent short summary, Chet, for those who do not choose to
read the entire thread on the other forum! It's long...

Years ago, I worked with a small crystal sphere (approximately 7
cm diameter) that had a small-neck opening to admit water. On
the side of the sphere, I had attached a piezo-electric transducer
that allowed me to transmit ultra-sonic vibrations into the sphere.

I had a lot of fun, learning with this device. By tuning the
frequency from a signal generator, I was able to generate
cavitations in the water in various patterns in the sphere. Beautiful
sight -- to see the bubbles forming and collapsing inside the water.
That was at least a dozen years ago, and was before I retired. I
don't even know where that sphere is now... I am now an Emeritus
Professor, with access to the lab equipment -- if I could find that
sphere! I could make another one I suppose.

The goal was to see whether cavitations in heavy water D2O would
result in deuteron-deuteron fusion events, which would produce
neutrons. I was able to get single-bubble cavitations -- one
bubble in the center of the sphere, along with many other
cavitating- bubble configurations.
However, with my device at the time, I did not see any neutron
production from cavitations. I tested for neutrons using a
sophisticated helium-3 filled neutron detector, which is still
available to me!

12

PS -- well said, as usual, AllCanadian.

12

PhysicsProf:
Quote
I would like to especially thank Prof. Savic from Serbia, for making his "sonic
boiler" to be "open source" on this ENERGETIC FORUM, as he says in the post
quoted below.

I consider that this is a wonderful gift to humanity.
I guess it's the Tesla-Davey-Savic-DaemonBart-Chet-Slovenia... sonic boiler
now!

How generous that Prof Savic provides " special thanks to DAEMONBART,
RAMSET and SLOVENIA for successful replication of sonic boiler and for
publishing the results of testing for guys on ENERGETIC FORUM" !!

Thank you, Prof Savic. I am also glad to provide (as you noted) "support and
good feedback on this open source project."

Successful replication? Publishing results? You have got to be
kidding!

Considering how simple the fundamental basis for this experiment
is; power the device and measure the joules of electrical energy
provided at the input, and then measure the joules of heat energy
produced at the output, I was hoping that even some beginners
could get this done without too much difficulty.

But that hasn't happened and to see you offering your
congratulations is just unbelievable. You are a retired physics
professor, what's going on here?

Here is the last round of "data" provided by Daemonbart:
Quote
I started my use of steam that goes away from my heater "project"

For start I calculated that converting 30 l of water into steam needs about 19
kWh input of energy into water that allready is boiling.

From this boiler I use also about 8-10kW heating my radiators. My input from
grid is around 40 kWh/24h

So my total output should be around 260 kWh and input around 40.

COP = 6,5

Use of steam will be a good way i think

I will see how much steam i can get without running heat to radiators

Do you consider this to be valid data that indicates it is a
successful replication?

The lunatics have taken over the asylum. It's really frustrating,
even a relatively simple straightforward experiment like this has
degenerated into people on OU babbling about all sorts of things
like "Rodin coils" and number series and all sorts of nonsense that
has nothing to do with actually doing the experiment and reporting
the results.

I will predict that the thread will go on for several more months
like this and there is only a small chance that anybody will present
any credible test data. Meanwhile, the participants in the thread
are already convinced that they have confirmed the alleged over
unity phenomenon and you are actually backing them up! It's
unbelievable!

I was just trying to get people to follow through and actually
report results because I have seen threads fail dozens if not
hundreds of times and this was a very simple experiment. But the
same thing is happening and people are deluding themselves
about their testing and their data, again!

I am throwing in the towel! The whole thing has degenerated into
a farce.

MileHigh

12

Quote
The lunatics have taken over the asylum. It's really frustrating, even a
relatively simple straightforward experiment like this has degenerated into
people on OU babbling about all sorts of things like "Rodin coils" and number
series and all sorts of nonsense that has nothing to do with actually doing the
experiment and reporting the results.

I will predict that the thread will go on for several more months like this and
there is only a small chance that anybody will present any credible test data.
Meanwhile, the participants in the thread are already convinced that they have
confirmed the alleged over unity phenomenon and you are actually backing
them up! It's unbelievable!

Too right! O0

I gave up on following this nonsense a good while ago now, but
had to smile when I popped over to EF just to see what results
they now had, only to find... 'nothing', and now some nutty French
geezer filling the thread up with mystic symbols and magic
numbers. What a joke! C.C

12
Post by: Paul-R on 2011-12-29, 16:39:10

...there is only a small chance that anybody will present any credible test
data...
Post 238 contains a spreadsheet with experimental test data. You
may not
view this as credible; if so, what does a report need for you to
view it as
credible?

12
Post by: Chet K on 2011-12-29, 17:11:16

Paul
Thanks again for making that spread sheet,If you are not aware
this whole thing is being evaluated at a higher level
with an end result of 100 % open source in mind!!

I have stopped all testing and posting in regard to this device out
of respect for the people involved and in High Hopes that this
is truly doing something special?

Thanks again
Chet
PS
Mh I guess you have a right to be Cranky, Now that the truth is
coming out

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=russian+alien+video&mid=
5570D1E08938B911AF775570D1E08938B911AF77&view=detail&F
ORM=VIRE7

:D

12

Paul-R:

The spreadsheet is incomplete and is missing half of the required
data. All of the COP calculations have a divide-by-zero error!

What would be credible would be for the team to try to figure out
how to measure the input joules (or kilowatt-hours) with some
reasonable accuracy and that hasn't been done yet. The
granularity of a typical Kill-a-Watt meter is to large relative to a
small container of water. There has to be a way to overcome this
problem if you want to use a Kill-a-Watt meter but after several
months, the issue has barely been touched upon in the thread. Or
perhaps there is another way to do it?

Discussing thermal insulation issues to try to get better results
would be credible, but this has not been discussed at all.
Notwithstanding that Chet says it's irrelevant because of the
expected "high COP" this should be discussed if the thread is to be
taken seriously.

Establishing guidelines for the testing and measuring methods
would be helpful also but that hasn't been done either. Taking a
regular resistive heater, like the one that Chet bought, and
running tests with that to establish a reference baseline would
have been helpful also. That's akin to running a control
experiment where you do a test run with your 60 Hz resonating
setup and then you do a control test where you just stick two
wires in the water and compare the two results. That hasn't even
been discussed.

Anyway, this is probably my last post about this water heater
business. If people got their act collectively together one would
expect that the results would show a COP close to and less than
one. That would have been an educational experience for
everyone and they would have proved that there is no "magic 60
Hz resonating system" that creates massive excesses of extra heat
energy out of thin air. That would have been the real victory,
where a team of people work together and pool their brainpower
and do definitive tests that show that there is no excess heat
production. That's what I was hoping for, that the execution of a
credible round of tests on this simple setup would yield good
truthful results and be of great benefit to everyone involved. But
that is clearly not happening and the months are dragging on the
thread is going nowhere. The thread is now being ruined by the
free energy groupies that are making all sorts of "helpful
suggestions." Then to see PhysicsProf make his congratulatory
comments as if this was a done deal was the straw that broke the
camel's back for me.

Chet:

Looks like chicken and if you follow a link or two it is chicken!
Alternatively, how come aliens are almost always nudists?

MileHigh

12
Post by: Chet K on 2011-12-29, 19:26:07

Speaking of Chicken
This one scares me [gotta see it]

http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=RobaJKGMMiE

12

PS
Mh I guess you have a right to be Cranky, Now that the truth is coming out

:D

Truth... What truth? The Prof is still spouting on about neutrinos
for cripes sake!

Chet, when wil you ever learn? Are you always going to reside in
fantasy land? You do know don't you that it is only a matter of
time before the bubble bursts. Dear, dear, it's all very sad really.
:'(

12
Post by: Chet K on 2011-12-29, 22:13:28

Farrah
You missed the Joke
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=russian+alien+video&mid=
5570D1E08938B911AF775570D1E08938B911AF77&view=detail&F
ORM=VIRE7

This was the truth i Spake of [ALEEE IINS]
MH says they taste like Chicken!!

Who loves yah Babe..................?

I really hope this turns out to be something good,I really want to
give you back something for all the trouble I've been over the
Years.
Have a happy new year Farrah
Chet
PS there really is something going on with this device [going for
PEER review/ Scrutiny /Testing] ,The goal being to Open source no
strings attached
No patent attempts either!!

12

Joke... what joke? Did I miss a joke? Is the whole thing just a
joke...? :) ;)
I really hope this turns out to be something good,I really want to give you back
something for all the trouble I've been over the Years.
Have a happy new year Farrah
Chet

Well, Chet, you understand that I won't be holding my breath in
anticipation. And yes, you have been a right royal pain in the arse
at times with your unending, but blinkered, enthusiasm, but I
certainly can't deny your enduring passion.

Happy New Year to you too! :-*

12
Post by: Paul-R on 2011-12-30, 12:46:47

MH says:

"The spreadsheet is incomplete"
There are unused cells. Who cares?.

"and is missing half of the required data".
What is missing that you cannot look up?

"All of the COP calculations have a divide-by-zero error!"
Who cares?

"how to measure the input joules (or kilowatt-hours) with some
reasonable accuracy"
It is good enough for nhow - to establsih if the COP is greater or
less than 1.

"Discussing thermal insulation issues"
Merely refinement. See above.

12

...
You missed the Joke
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=russian+alien+video&mid=5570D1E08
938B911AF775570D1E08938B911AF77&view=detail&FORM=VIRE7

This was the truth i Spake of [ALEEE IINS]
MH says they taste like Chicken!!
...

between chicken and rabbit...
Well done, the new Frankeinstein is clever.
Surely delicious, roasting on a spit.

12

Paul-R:
Quote
"All of the COP calculations have a divide-by-zero error!"
Who cares?

We are in Monty Python or "Jeux Sans Frontires" territory now.
You told me to look at the spreadsheet as an indicator of some
data showing the circuit works. But the spreadsheet showed no
electrical input power calculations at all, so the spreadsheet
contained no data at all showing that the circuit worked. And you
say, "Who cares?"

Meanwhile, back in experimenter's corner... Cherryman makes a
bold move and fills up his bathtub with water and makes some
measurements:
Quote
So I filled up the bath

- 125 liter ( filled with measurement bucket)
- Stirred and measured start temp: 12 Celsius. (New temp meter Elro M990)
- Put device on bottom
- Left it for 1 hour and 5 minutes
- Device out
- Some good stirring
- End temp 23 Celsius (new temp meter Elro M990)
- Power used 1.7 kWh ( Consumption meter)

According to formula:

................................Ltr......S-Temp.....E-Temp.........Delta-T
Sec........kWh......kWh Normal.....Cop
Test 125 liter (bath).....125.....12............23...............
3900.................1,700.....1,788............1, 05

Seems not bad, but not spectacular. Although one has to consider a large heat
loss from a metal bath to it's surroundings and air.

Note that he is using what appears to be a medium quality no-
name-brand multimeter that has a temperature function. It's
possible that it only displays the temperature without any digits
after the decimal point. I couldn't find detailed specifications
online with a five-minute search effort.

So you are looking at the first measurement that overcomes the
granularity problem with his Kill-a-Watt-type meter although there
may be a granularity problem with his temperature readings. If
his bathtub is a modern thin-walled bathtub then its relatively
small thermal mass and half-decent thermal insulation should yield
decent data considering we are heating up a huge 125 liter
thermal mass of water.

And lo and behold, with the reasonable caveats stated above, his
data clearly shows that the water heater is operating at
approximately unity.

As far as I am concerned Cherryman is the first person to present
credible data, and the primary reason for that is he heated up 125
liters of water and that overcame the granularity problem in
measuring the electrical watt-hours into the system.

Sorry Chet, but this is the real world in action. "Resonance"
cannot magically produce heat out of thin air. And the reason I
put it in quotations is the free air tuning of your can is nullified the
instant it is immersed in water, which I have stated before. I have
to assume many people on the thread lurk here and also read that
statement a few months ago but ignored it. That's the "lunatics
taking over the asylum" factor in action.

Neutrinos are highly overrated also! :D

MileHigh

12
Post by: ION on 2011-12-30, 15:50:17

I agree with MH, there are some errors that should be addressed.

First, the LSB (least significant bit) error roundoff of the
temperature meter could easily throw the COP below 1.00.

Those meters are notoriously inaccurate at the low end of the
scale, and chances are the specified error is as a percentage of full
scale. Errors around zero are usually not specified.

Some of these meters do not even have suitable reference junction
compensation, or reference junction tracking. Just holding the
meter in your hand can throw the reading off, should you
accidentally heat the reference junction (the end that plugs into
the meter).

Further, these meters typically use a type "K" thermocouple, one
of the worst for low end measurement. Chromel / Alumel (type K)
is usually used for high temperature measurement, up to 2000 F.

So a COP of 1.05 is to be expected given the imprecise
instrumentation used for the test.

Considering the above, and using a bathtub as a thermal chamber,
I think it is amazing that he was able to get a reading within 5% of
the actual value i.e. COP= 1.00

But then again, if you wait for that LSB to flip up or down, you can
bias your test result in the desired direction.

Unless you have access to a high quality electronic thermal
measuring instrument, you might be better off using a calibrated
mercury thermometer.

Alternately one of those cheap indoor outdoor thermometers might
serve as they use thermistors instead of thermocouples so don't
suffer reference junction problems. They are designed to be fairly
accurate over the range of 0 to 100 F. Also they read in tenths of a
degree so can bury the LSB error by one order of magnitude.

Over this range, doing the measurements in degrees F and
manually converting to C afterwards will improve granularity
errors.

Can anyone find an English language manual for the ELRO M990,
so I can look further into this?

12

ION,

That meter uses the volt/ohm/ma + & - terminals for the t-couple
connection and a dedicated switch position for temperature.
Meters fitting that description have cold-junction compensation
and a separate sensing circuit to convert the tiny t/c output to
something useful.

The volt accuracy is +/- .5% of reading +/- 2 digits (used to
display temp).

The temperature accuracy is +/- 3% between -20C and ~1000C

I have a EU made meter with the same specs. The temperature
measurement is only trustworthy within about 1C at room
temperature.

And Yes, they most certainly come with a type K - not good for
accuracy in those temp- ranges.

12

Ion and WaveWatcher:

Thanks for your comments and expertise about the temperature
measurement limitations and accuracy tolerance issues for the
multimeter assuming that it's based on thermocouple technology.
I simply assumed that a medium-grade multimeter would add a
cheapo temperature measurement system to add to the feature
set and it looks like I was correct.

Our esteemed professor PhysicsProf made the following comment:
Quote
But you're right that over 1hour 5minutes, there will be a large heat loss from
the large bath!

Can you put your "heater" into a plastic bucket or something, and insulate the
container? (E.g., bubble-wrap).

Firstly, I think we agree that a modern bathtub would make a
reasonably decent thermal chamber over a one hour period
considering you are heating a huge thermal mass of water, 125
liters - 125 kilograms - 275 pounds of water. The key assumption
is that it's a modern bathtub. Secondly, if you look at the start
and end temperatures you notice that the heater heated up cool
water to approximately ambient temperature. That makes perfect
sense because the water flowing out of your cold water tap is
typically below ambient! Note that means that during the test you
could expect heat from the surrounding environment to flow into
the the thermal mass of water, not out!

MileHigh

12
Post by: ION on 2011-12-30, 22:12:17

Here is a chart showing limits of accuracy for "K" type
thermocouple and other types. Add this to the meter inaccuracy
and you may have a problem. If all we need are relative readings,
the problem goes away.

We still have the rather low uV output of the K thermocouple to
deal with, and as I said earlier, this can be problematic when
considering cold junction errors, which will effect measurement
repeatability.

WW: Thanks for the specs on the meter. I doubt that the T/C
preamp used in those cheap meters has the thermal uV stability
to insure repeatable readings.

12

Thanks for posting the chart. I had almost forgotten why we use
RTD's at the lower ranges ;D

I have a NIST traceable Fluke & type T probe kit. Taping the type
K & T together is interesting. Even after 30 minutes to stabilize the
K varies from the T by as much as 1.2C.

Plus and minus :D

Part of that may be because the T has a faster reaction time.

12

On a lighter note, I keep on correcting my typos and there was
one big mistake, I stated "watts" when it should have been "watt-
hours."

It's amazing how difficult it is to spot your own typos, especially if
you just made a posting. When you read your eyes skim the text
and you barely actually look at the individual words. There a cool
thing where you can read whole sentences no problem as long as
the first and last letters in each word are the right letters. The
letters within the words themselves can be junk text and you can
still read at high speed no problem!

Then when you are reading your own freshly-written prose your
brain is playing it back as you read it, and it renders your mistakes
so that they are almost invisible.

That's a double-whammy and it can blind you to your own jarring
errors sometimes.

Going back to the subject at hand and sorry I will repeat some
themes to hammer some points home:

So Chet, Slovenia, Boguslaw, Daemonbart and other replicators,
the thread needs more data. Even though Cherryman's results are
showing that the universe is unfolding as it should, to be scientific
you still want to accumulate more test results, preferably from
multiple replicators. Cherryman could also do another few test
runs as a suggestion. Again, I am hammering home the point,
stop the pie-in-the-sky talk on the thread and do experiments and
collect data and analyze it together as a team. At least that's the
best case scenario from my perspective. If nobody on the thread
has a peep to say about Cherryman's first bathtub test run then
it's the same old crap one more time and it's intellectually
dishonest. Don't fall into the trap of brainwashing yourselves by
ignoring data that you don't like, deal with the data both good and
bad as it comes in and discuss it among yourselves. Another trap
is to invest 95% of the energy on the thread in discussing how to
do the physical replication or to free energy speculate and only
invest 5% of the energy on the thread in actual testing and
discussing the results. That's totally wrong and it's a formula for
failure.

Chet, you have stated a few times now that some testing is being
done professionally. Do you really have to be so cryptic? Can't
you just tell us the plain facts about this? We don't need to know
about the costs, just what is being done.

MileHigh

12
Post by: Paul-R on 2011-12-31, 12:55:40

Paul-R:

We are in Monty Python or "Jeux Sans Frontires" territory now. You told me
to look at the spreadsheet as an indicator of some data showing the circuit
works. But the spreadsheet showed no electrical input power calculations at
all, so the spreadsheet contained no data at all showing that the circuit worked.
And you say, "Who cares?"
There are two power input options, Dickhead. You takes yourt
choice. Read the spreadsheet.

Why am I bothering to reply?

12
Post by: Chet K on 2011-12-31, 15:06:13

Paul
Cranial Phallus??
I don't believe we can evolve to that level?

We are going to have a lot to talk about this New Year!!

And we most certainly are going to need each other ...And trust
each other...

Have a safe and happy New year!!

Chet

12

Paul-R:
Quote
There are two power input options, Dickhead. You takes yourt choice. Read the
spreadsheet.

Yes I missed that the second time round looking at your sloppy
spreadsheet. Chet's data is junk because of the granularity issues
in his kilowatt-hour measurements like 0.03, 0.04, 0.07 KWH.
That's just been discussed in detail but that hasn't registered in
your flaccid head at all, has it?

The spreadsheet data is useless and there was no point in you
even making reference to it.

MileHigh

12
Post by: Chet K on 2011-12-31, 22:14:43

So Prince Charming
you don't like my test data??

You trying to hurt My feelins??
Your gonna need a bigger Hammer! [and a smidge more credibility
in the experimenting department]!

Pretty easy quarterbacking from the couch??

Besides we all know the ultimate test for OU .... The mother of all
tests ....the one where you don't need any meters [my favorite]

The Loopty Luuu
Why Not??

Chet

12

Chet:

You're right, I don't like your test data. It has nothing to do with
your feelings or you personally. You yourself should not like your
own test data. This is not about hammers or testing credibility, it's
about the critical scientific analysis of the facts. Any serious
experimenter should be able to reject his or her own test data
without it affecting their ego.

The first credible round of test data is clearly showing you that
there is no over unity but you haven't commented on it yet. It's
like you are in denial. I had quit the whole thing but decided to
comment because finally after several months someone did a
credible test.

If you haven't actually paid for the outside testing yet and it's
going to cost you a lot of money I would strongly recommend that
you cancel and save your hard-earned money. I will just repeat
that it's possible that a "crazy" person in Serbia is orchestrating all
of this for his or her mental masturbation and all of you are
jumping through hoops like trained seals. That would be most
unfortunate. I hate the "looney bin" aspect of some threads and
the thread on EF is a classic example.

Anyway, I'm done! Good luck and try to get people to generate
more valid data but the chances of this project going anywhere are
zero.

MileHigh

12
Post by: Chet K on 2012-01-01, 00:56:21

Happy 2012...........

12

Happy 2012...........

Thanks. As 2012 is supposed to be the last year, this one of the
end of the world, I encourage every one to hurry up about free
energy ;)

Happy new year to every one !

12

My prediction for 2012 -- the following statements by MH will end
up in the trash bin this year:

1. Anyway, I'm done!
[This one you can control, MH, but I'm predicting you'll be back to attack or
retract]

2. Good luck and try to get people to generate more valid data but the
chances of this project going anywhere are zero.
[We'll see. We have 12 months to prove you wrong.]

MileHigh

Nothing against you personally, MH. Just putting a little challenge
out there on January 1st!

12
Post by: Magluvin on 2012-01-01, 19:50:13

Chet

Will be around all day.. I tried but it must be a fax line. ;]

Mags

12

PhysicsProf:

"Back to attack" is an unfair characterization of my comments. I
can talk tough but I am not attacking. I am just stating the facts
with some force and giving honest appraisals of the test results.

The thread started in the beginning of September and it was only
at the end of December that we saw the first credible test results
and those results show no over unity. That's thanks to a new
person that showed up recently. If he didn't show up we might
still be waiting for credible test results come Springtime.

It's been two days now since the test results came in showing no
over unity and there have been no comments from the main
participants in the thread with the exception of you. Your
comment about a large heat loss over one hour and five minutes is
wrong. Your comment, "a cop of about 2 is very impressive for
the bath" baffles me because I don't see any data anywhere to
suggest that. That "reality disconnect" happens all the time in the
threads.

There is no "12 month clock" on the sonic water heater. Rather,
multiple replicators in the thread need to generate credible test
data and then discuss it. You need multiple test results to arrive
at a conclusion, just like any other experiment. That could in
theory be done within a month or two and then this whole thing
could be put to bed and everybody could move on. I would be
delighted to see that happen but my confidence is low.

That's just my plain straightforward appraisal of the current state
of affairs in the water heater thread. I don't see any point in
commenting further about goings on in the EF thread because I
know how these things play out. The chances of the replicators
generating credible data over the next few months are slim, and
the thread will chug along going nowhere. It's really unfortunate
that people seemingly cannot follow through and simply take the
required steps to complete the project and arrive at a conclusion.

MileHigh

12

What if...

If we have an LC circuit, L being the heater, and C a capacitor, we
can make it ring with tuned input. As heat increases, the freq of
resonance will change, so our input will have to change with it. Not
an issue.
If we can follow the resonant change as the heater changes temp,
we should have very efficient heating, being there is nothing killing
the resonance, like trying to extract from the ringing LC via
electrical or magnetic, which kills off the ring. ;]

Mags

12

Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2012-01-01, 19:20:30
My prediction for 2012 -- the following statements by MH will end up in the
trash bin this year:
...

Is it necessary to show us your trash bin? Every one has his own
trash bin. For instance in mine there is:
http://pesn.com/2011/05/27/9501835_Steven_E_Jones_demonstr
ates_overunity_circuit/
It didn't even need a prediction for 2012. 2 hours have been
enough to experiment and see there was not OU in such a circuit.
Of course nobody realized a successful replication.

As I see not one convincing experimental proof of the sonic water
heater, it will surely finish in the same place.

12
Post by: Chet K on 2012-01-02, 14:27:09

Exnihiloest

You Know beyond all doubt that we can Harvest Power from the
sea of energy that surrounds us [consumes us]
If you don't you wouldn't be here!

People used to believe we couldn't live forever ,We are a device
that has a built in limiter... the cells don't rebuild themselves as
well !!
They are getting a grasp on that too.............
What used to be considered lunacy is slowly becoming reality!!

Pay attention ,,,Things are different Now!!

Chet

12

Quote from: Magluvin on 2012-01-01, 21:32:42
What if...

If we have an LC circuit, L being the heater, and C a capacitor, we can make it
ring with tuned input. As heat increases, the freq of resonance will change, so
our input will have to change with it. Not an issue.
If we can follow the resonant change as the heater changes temp, we should
have very efficient heating, being there is nothing killing the resonance, like
trying to extract from the ringing LC via electrical or magnetic, which kills off
the ring. ;]

Mags

I don't understand this post at all. How can you compare this
contraption to an LC cct?
For a start there is absolutely no evidence of anything resonating
at a tuned frequency, and as the only frequency available is that of
the mains supply, how could a frequency follow temperature
changes? ??? I really wouldn't worry about 'killing' resonance as
there is no resonance to kill in the first place.

I'm always amazed by how many people simply believe this stuff
and then take it upon themselves to passionately defend it, when
there is not one single shred of evidence to support the various
claims. Savic has a stated that neutrinos are the reason this works
and at one point also that a specific frequency in the MHz range
came into play. Yet none of this has created even the slightest
pause for thought for the likes of Chet, Slov, etc., they simply
carry on oblivious. The mind boggles. C.C

I'm totally with MH, I'd put good money on this never coming to
anything - other than in the minds of those folk not prepared to
see past the nonsense.

In fact I'd put good money on this going the way of Mike
Nunnerley's (None Electrolytic Splitting of H2O) and Murakami's
(Ionization and Water Fuel) threads on EF, where both were hyped
up to be the next big thing (and defended vehemently by lame-
brain sheep when challenged), only to fade quietly away when all
the big, clever talk and promises came to nothing. But no doubt
Mystic Murakami, the great spiritual leader that he is, will write
another book entailing the secrets of how to do it... so all is not
lost. C.C

12

Farrah

My post was of just a simple idea that might work. Lets say that
we fiddle with a heater and a cap, till we find the right cap so that
resonance is happening when the element is at full desired temp in
water.

So, cold start up, with the cap in place, resonance is not
happening yet. The element just acts like a heater. Then as the
element heats up, the LC comes closer to the target resonant freq
desired.

Its pretty simple. If you have an LC that is resonant at 1khz, and
apply input of 995hz, you will see a drastic drop in input as
compared to what is happening in the LC. But as we all know, if we
try to draw energy(electrical or magnetic) from the LC in
conventional manors, the resonance is killed off. (only if we try to
draw from it continuously ;] later on that )

But if we are only trying to extract heat, from the L(heater), we
are not killing off the resonant function of the LC.

My idea is different from the one described for this thread. Never
said it was the same. My idea just sprung from the ideal of heating
water with resonance, and the water is just the energy extractor,
not part of the resonant circuit

Mags

12

Mags:

How about you draw and post an LC circuit that illustrates what
you are talking about? We assume the input to the circuit is an AC
voltage source and we assume that the resonant frequency of the
LC circuit is the same frequency as the AC voltage source. Then
draw a simple timing diagram - show a few AC input cycles and
below those AC cycles show other waveforms that show what your
circuit is doing. You are free to choose to show whatever
waveforms that you deem relevant to illustrate how the circuit
works. Keep in mind that you are supposed to show how the
water is being heated, so that information should be conveyed in
your waveforms.

Please try doing that, it would be appreciated. You said that it's
pretty simple, even a hand-drawn sketch that you photograph and
then post would be great.

MileHigh

12

MH

Will do soon. At lunch right now.

It is just a theory Mh. Havnt tried yet.

Mags

12

What I like about the sonic boiler approach is that one measures
the temperature rise of water, which gives the Q (and from that
the output power) rather directly. One does have to stir the water
etc. -- but the measurement is straightforward.

I've decided to start experiments along this line myself, to
"immerse" myself as it were and learn the ropes and pitfalls.
Too bad you don't do actual experiments, MileHigh -- or will
you?

12

PhysicsProf:

I don't experiment but my skill set is quite good. I am more
competent on an electronics test bench than 98% or more of the
experimenters that you see on the forums.

I assume that you are mentioning "Q" in reference to the filter
quality factor. That's ridiculous. The whole thing is complete
nonsense, there is no Q factor, and I was hoping the participants
in the thread would figure that out for themselves by doing some
test runs but that's not happening. There isn't a single shred of
evidence that this thing works and there is no logical reason
whatsoever for it to work. The technical information and
comments from the Serbian "professor" are pseudo technical
gibberish and nonsense. However, you have already endorsed this
project. If I had encountered you for the first time and knowing
your background I would have been in complete and total shock
but I know better now.

MileHigh

12
Post by: Chet K on 2012-01-03, 03:58:04

Mh
Shock and awe ??

Theres no electronics on this bench!![at the most basic level],I
know you think its junk science ...
But I believe it works on Pressure ...I was talking to a friend today
with a working device ,he thinks its a pressure event too ...

A squeeeeeze of the molecules till they blow apart ... Then when
they come back together they create this excess heat?
His tubes are making noise now ....Like bizzy little bees..

Water hammer ....Hydrodynamic cavitation ... the pistol shrimp

All these yield a strange event... a scientific anomaly
the water gets beat up, and in the process something starts to
happen something that Savic went after with a vengeance ,he
spent countless hours sanding and tuning until he got his reward
And Now we have it and some people have taken it beyond the
sandpaper tuning stage and evolved it into the device we will see
here soon................

Theres no magic in resonance ? Unless you get things to Yield with
it.... and maintain that state ... and harvest the "anomoly"

In this case mr.MH the anomoly is staring you right in the face !!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XC6I8iPiHT8
Its not psuedo junk crackpot kindergarten science!!
Its a proven event ... reproduced at will by a man with a tuned
Beer Can the power of the Mains and resonance!

Shock and Awe................

Chet

12

PhysicsProf:

I don't experiment but my skill set is quite good. I am more competent on an
electronics test bench than 98% or more of the experimenters that you see on
the forums.

I assume that you are mentioning "Q" in reference to the filter quality
factor. That's ridiculous. The whole thing is complete nonsense, there
is no Q factor, and I was hoping the participants in the thread would figure
that out for themselves by doing some test runs but that's not happening.
There isn't a single shred of evidence that this thing works and there is no
logical reason whatsoever for it to work. The technical information and
comments from the Serbian "professor" are pseudo technical gibberish and
nonsense. However, you have already endorsed this project. If I had
encountered you for the first time and knowing your background I would have
been in complete and total shock but I know better now.

MileHigh

What's ridiculous is your assuming that I'm
Quote
mentioning "Q" in reference to the filter quality factor.

Q, in the context of what I wrote, is the amount of heat energy
gained by water, and is mass m of the water being heated
multiplied by the specific heat capacity (Cg) multiplied by the
change in temperature (final temperature - initial temperature).

Q = m x Cg x (Tf - Ti)

I wrote, and now after the basic physics tutorial above my
intended meaning should be very clear,
Quote
What I like about the sonic boiler approach is that one measures the
temperature rise of water, which gives the Q (and from that the output
power) rather directly. One does have to stir the water etc. -- but the
measurement is straightforward.

You erroneously assume and then go on to attack me personally.
I am not interested in your prideful games.
Quote
I don't experiment but my skill set is quite good. I am more competent on an
electronics test bench than 98% or more of the experimenters that you see on
the forums. -- MH

I do experiments and have no need of your hubris, MH.

I will work on the experiments and support others doing so, on the
sonic boiler and other efforts, and report back here when I'm
satisfied, whatever the results turn out to be. I do not intend to
reply to you further until then, MH.

The nice thing about experiments is that they are
repeatable and so, ultimately, the data speak for
themselves regardless of naysayers.

12

PhysicsProf:

You tried to slip in a derogatory comment that says, "You don't do
experiments so you're not credible." That's a not so subtle attack
on me personally. So I told you in no uncertain terms that I know
my way around on an electronics bench. Based on the experience
over the past nine months, we can't say the same for you.

The "physics tutorial" is just the "Third Law" game being played
again. It's a given professor, nearly everybody knows how to
relate increased temperature in a mass of water back to energy.
One Calorie of heat raises the temperature of one gram (or cc) of
water by one degree Celsius. 4.184 Joules is equivalent to one
Calorie of heat. Did I pass the test prof? Your posturing with the
formula is nonsensical considering we are dealing with water.

Dropping the term "Q" out of thin air without explaining yourself is
just posturing on your part. Yes it is a term used in
thermodynamics and I now vaguely remember it from my
chemistry courses in junior college in the 1970s. If you were real
you would have explained the context. Note, at the same time,
you have amazingly endorsed this device and the "premise" of the
device is that it is based on "resonance." When it comes to
resonance the big buzz word is the "Q factor." So don't be
surprised if most people connected the dots just like I did.
Quote
The nice thing about experiments is that they are repeatable and so,
ultimately, the data speak for themselves regardless of naysayers.

"Naysayer" or just a regular person with some education that is
able to apply his knowledge? One would imagine that a magic
water heater would have been discovered already within the past
150 years, don't you think? If it were true, we would be getting
our power today from magic resonance steam turbine power plants
that run in a closed loop and export free electricity.

An equivalent to this experiment would be to hook up an AC
voltage to a resistor and then doing tests to see if the heat
dissipation in the resistor is demonstrating any over unity. It's
preposterous.

Note that the Serbian "professor" is now offering to sell "magic"
water heaters. Money has reared its ugly head.

MileHigh

12

Exnihiloest
...
What used to be considered lunacy is slowly becoming reality!!
Pay attention ,,,Things are different Now!!

Things are not different Now. I hear your speech for 20 years. It
has just grown due to Internet, attracting many more egocentric
people and con men.
If every thing worked in matter of energy, we would not be here,
searching for overunity.

We must point out the promising ideas (for example Rossi's e-cat),
as well as we must point out the fakes, the lies, the failures:
simple question of intelligence and efficiency in our quest.
There is no exception in the free energy field, it is like every
human activity, there are also con men or sick people who never
admit they were lying or wrong, in spite of all the reports from
experimenters. It is our duty to dismiss them.

We are convinced that free energy is possible. It is not a reason to
be stupid and blind.

12
Post by: muDped on 2012-01-03, 10:59:51

MileHigh, you're not doing well in this
discussion.

The Professor wishes to engage in
rigorous scientific evaluation of what
some have reported to be an unusual
phenomenon.

Your efforts to turn the discussion into
high drama are a replay of the now very
familiar tune.

Well, have your fun. The Professor has
taken and remains upon the high ground.
Your clever attacks will prove futile.

Yes, there is much to be said for "hands on"
experimentation. It is unfortunate that you've
assumed a position which eschews verification
by personal observation.

12

Dumped:

Unfortunately as has happened many times in the past, the people
pitching this concept out of Serbia have jaw-droppingly abysmal
technical credibility. It's so bad that it's beyond bad. It's almost
surreal. Did you see that graph from a month ago? The whole
thing is a complete reality distortion field. The reaction to this
from the people in the thread is just as surreal when nothing in the
Serbian proposition is questioned or challenged. There have been
no credible reports of an unusual phenomenon. The one credible
test so far has demonstrated unity. Common sense and basic
physics says that this will not work. The 60 Hz or 50 Hz excitation
may as well be DC excitation, there is no difference between the
three relative to this experiment. There is no wave or frequency
phenomenon going on in this experiment, you may as well call it
variable DC excitation.

The way to get past this reality distortion field is to do testing and
discuss the results. Once that's done, you are back at square one.
I am just not sure that will ever happen. If it does get done, the
net result is that lots of time and energy will have been expended
in the thread, and by the replicators, for nothing.

I think it's reasonable to hold PhysicsProf to a higher standard
considering his background but he gobbles up outrageous free
energy propositions like jellybeans.

People have to learn how to dismiss nonsensical free energy
propositions either out of hand through qualifying the people
making the propositions and the propositions themselves, or by
doing the real-world testing and reporting the results and
discussing them. That way they raise the bar for the next free
energy proposition that comes along.

Just my thoughts. I am the voice in the wilderness still batting
1000.

MileHigh

PS: Look at the example of Mylow. Every time he changed his
magnet configuration his magnet motor still magically worked.
Whenever Sterling went to see Mylow he claimed that the MIB
showed up the night before and roughed him up and/or took his
magnet motor away. It was almost like the narrative was
screaming at the common sense part of you telling you that this
was all fake, a lie, nothing fit, it didn't make sense.

You have to use your common sense and your education and also
trust your instincts in life to make good decisions. Sometimes you
have to make a decision to move on and cut the chaff out of your
life. You can't be spinning around in circles going nowhere all the
time. This Serbian water heater is pure chaff, nothing more than
noise. It's a good life skill, qualifying all the information that is
being thrown at you from all directions and separating the seed
from the chaff.

12
Post by: Chet K on 2012-01-03, 14:17:24

Heh Heh...
MH
Battin a thousand on the low ground ,Busier than a one legged
man in a but kicking Contest!!

A long time ago you promised me you would tell me all about how
the pistol shrimp causes a 9900C sonoluminesence event in
water.. with nothing more than a well shaped claw and a well
timed snap from his itty bitty muscle?
Here we have the Horse power of the mains a design built Tube
and the solid pressure of well tuned RESONANCE ..............

??

I propose this well documented"pressure event" is whats going on
here!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XC6I8iPiHT8
You have the floor ........[or the high ground :!}
Chet
PS
While your doin your home work Google Hydrosonic cavitation
[documented ou effect] and water hammer also

12
Post by: ION on 2012-01-03, 15:50:28

ex said:
Quote
There is no exception in the free energy field, it is like every human activity,
there are also con men or sick people who never admit they were lying or
wrong, in spite of all the reports from experimenters. It is our duty to dismiss
them.

MH said:
Quote
It's a good life skill, qualifying all the information that is being thrown at you
from all directions and separating the seed from the chaff.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. Regarding purported OU devices,
it takes good instincts coupled with lots of bench experience. A
solid understanding of electronics fundamentals won't hurt, but will
help with the "separation" process.

99.99% of all the OU buzzwords are smoke and mirrors. What is
needed is less talk and a provable, repeatable simple OU science
experiment, including the rigorous data to support the claim.

A lot of the hot air generated on OU forums could power a third
world country.

my 2 milliJoules worth

12

Chet, it seems that you folk can't even decide how this 'boiler' is
supposed to work, as you all appear to have totally different takes
on it.

You, Chet, keep linking to that bloody Pistol Shrimp (have you got
shares in Pistol Shrimps), the Prof. explains it by neutrinos and
radio frequencies, Slovenia struggles with why depicting anodes
and cathodes is an issue if your supply is ac, and Cherryman (bless
him), is now likening it to an instantaneous electric shower! ???

So Chet, are you totally dismissing the great Prof's neutrino
explanation in favour of cavitation? How did he take it? :)

Are none of you at all concerned by the fact that the boiler keeps
changing? We started off with 50/60Hz and 300/400Hz, but now
the latest picture depicts 350Hz, 49Hz and 1000Hz... no, wait a
minute it has just changed again, it's now 450Hz, 49Hz and
900Hz... C.C Do any of you know just what these frequencies are
even supposed to represent? And where in heaven has 49Hz now
been plucked from??

All these fancy ideas and absurd theories, yet none of you are
even considering simple resistive heating. Why?

Of course, the default idiot defence of these devices and
outrageous claims, is that intelligent and educated people are too
narrow-minded, too set in their ways and too constrained by
classical science to grasp new ideas. However, back in the real
world, this is completely untrue. The problem here is that there is
never any conclusive evidence or supporting science to back up
these claims, never any indisputable proof, just misplaced faith
and wishful thinking - which has no place in science for many of
us.

Chet, your history of jumping on every passing bandwagon and
then being a champion for the cause, irrespective of the fact that
there is never any conclusive evidence or supporting science,
really is starting to wear a bit thin now. Believing every you-tube
video you watch and every word a total stranger tells you, and
relying solely on blind faith and ignorance, must surely be a drain
on you... I know it is me. :(

12
Post by: Chet K on 2012-01-03, 16:36:38

Farrah
Quote:
all these fancy ideas and absurd theories, yet none of you are even
considering simple resistive heating. Why?
------------------------------------------------------------
Well for one reason a man that has worked most of his life with
exactly that type of water heater,
Has said this is not what he has happening at all?

I suppose when you work every day in a trade and something
unusual comes along ...well
"it takes good instincts coupled with lots of bench experience. A
solid understanding of the fundamentals won't hurt, but will help
with the "separation" process".

He's on that page ...he has my ear ...and Its time to stop
regurgitating the same old same old....

Chet

12
Post by: Grumpy on 2012-01-03, 16:40:41

Peter Davey also has a sonic water heater.

http://www.rexresearch.com/davey/davey.htm

In regards to sonic water heaters, does anything get colder as the
water gets hotter?

12
Post by: Grumpy on 2012-01-03, 16:52:08

A commercial version:

http://www.energysavers.gov/your_home/water_heating/index.cf
m/mytopic=12840

Rheem makes one.

Maybe these sonic water heaters are just micro-heat-pumps.
Now all the BS, and pseudo-mumbo-jumbo can be cast aside.

12
Post by: Chet K on 2012-01-03, 17:04:17

Funny you should mention that Grumpy
One fellah that is working feverishly on this designs/installs those
systems for a living.....
He Knows what efficient heat pump numbers look like ..........
This makes them look Silly!!

gotta go back to work...........

Chet

12

G, good post. There are acoustic standing wave "compressors" for
heat transfer, I read about one years ago in an mechanical
engineering journal. I don't recall how efficient it was, but it
worked. This brings me to this question: do these guys totally
immerse the "resonators" in the water? Or just partially?

If partially, it might be possible to speculate that efficient heat
transfer is taking place.

If totally, and it works as claimed, I believe a more sensible
explanation can be found in the realm of chemistry, and there has
to be a exothermic reaction that takes place.

12
Post by: Grumpy on 2012-01-03, 18:17:11

A disruptive discharge coil can melt tungsten electrodes - that's
pretty hot!

I'm open to a reinterpretation of "heat", if and when anyone comes
up with something new. Laws can always be amended!

12
Post by: Chet K on 2012-01-03, 18:25:15

EM
Quote
do these guys totally immerse the "resonators" in the water? Or
just partially?
----------
Totally ,
However it has been noted that the COP rises if the Temp at the
Drive ring/ Cylinder interface is kept close to boiling [gaseous]?
90C

Chet

12

thanks Chet, that's very interesting and kind of hints at phase
change and latent heat.

Imagine with me that we could change the pressure of the liquid at
will. We know from thermodynamics that the boiling point of a
liquid is dependent on the external pressure, so we could
resonably expect different tempertures or heat quantities, if we
vary the pressure.

By using AC electricity and currents, I suspect that dissosiation of
water molecules is taking place (or break up of molecules into H2
and O2 diatomic gas molecules) and on the reverse cycle of the
AC current the recombination of these products back into a water
molecule is taking place, and of course boiling of the water should
be expected also. Now, if there is some sort of pressure
difference between the two processes, then it is resonable to
suspect that an imbalance of heat is involved. Setting up sonic
resonance in water, at the same frequency as the AC waveform
will create such imbalance, but higher frequencies will not help,
and don't help this theory.

Anyway, very interesting to imagine what other processes could
be taking place, if this is real. by the way, if there are
consumables involved, like aluminum that corodes in the water,
then all bets are off. this would then imply a very simple chemical
reaction that releases heat as a by product, and the electricity
facilitates the reaction.

EM

PS. Do you all remember the Mr Thrapp video when he heats up
that sphere full of water with a 9 V battery? That was amazing!
The probe looked like an acoustic generator, so this process could
be very much all about sonic energy, and not so much about
electricity flowing in water, which creates bubles, which are very
sudden volume expansions, which can be used to stimulate an
acoustic cavity as the final desired phenomena, so there could be
short cuts. Lot's of experimentation required!

Here's a simple experiment to conduct:

Use a pressure cooker and presurize the cooker to a set pressure
by using a regulator to maintain that pressure. Now try and
vaporize the water inside with electricity and electrodes, and
measure how much water has vaporized per Joule of energy
injection. (subtracting the initial and final mass of the setup to
find the difference and compare to the energy used.) This
experiment must be done at the boiling temperature, so the
cooker needs to be brought up to this temperature before the
electricity experiment can begin. Now, I wonder if these
numbers change based on the pressure? I hope they do.

12

EM,

When you increase the water pressure you raise the boiling point
and increase the ability of the liquid to store energy (Q). This still
doesn't mean more out than in :(

As far as sudden compression goes and sonoluminescence (shades
of that damned sea-food again?) Wikipedia is validated by this
recent find on thermoluminescence:

12
Post by: Chet K on 2012-01-03, 23:35:41

WW
AS Johny Carson used to say....
I DID NOT KNOW THAT ??

WW
Quote:
This still doesn't mean more out than in
-------------------------------------------------
Perhaps it is Naive of me ...[MH slaps his Knee and says
NOOO!!}.... To assume the little bug ...twitching his tiny little
Muscle ...attached to his Sweet tasting Claw
Causing a Sono event that Rivals the temperature of the sun
[9900C] would be more out than In??
''

I know.. I Know... he didn't run the Claw long enough for the Data
to be Viable??

Junk Junk Data He's a PutZ!! [No He's the Bug]

We run the Hammer for a bit more... and we get More out than in
[at least in heat]
A lot More!!

Chet

12

ramset,

I doubt that little crustacean ever claimed OU. It is the same old
problem.

Just because the color of the light (measured in Kelvin) is the
same or higher than the Sun means little. The fantastic thing
about the lil' buggers is they can concentrate all of the energy
from that claw into such a short period of time. There is no more
energy out than they apply with the claw.

It is just compressed into a very short time period so the
amplitude is much higher.

When we say we get 1 megawatt out of a coil is doesn't mean any
more. The question is - how much do you get over what time
period?

The same goes for water hammer and cavitation. All can be
devastating but there is no more out than in, in all these cases.

12

WW, this is what I'm thinking.

1) A low pressure wave is present at the electrodes, so water
vaporizes and create many small bubles around the electrodes,
WITH MINIMUM ENERGY INPUT, because of the low pressure.

2) A high pressure wave returns, and now the tiny bubles are
compressed and forced to condense, so higher energy is realized
upon condensation.

It may sounds crazy, but according to phase change data, there
are different heat contents required depending on the external
pressure.

There you have it folks, EM strikes again! LOL :D

EM

PS. Actually, energy would be accounted for by the pressure
wave and what it does at the other end.

12

Farrah
Quote:
all these fancy ideas and absurd theories, yet none of you are even considering
simple resistive heating. Why?
------------------------------------------------------------
Well for one reason a man that has worked most of his life with exactly that
type of water heater,
Has said this is not what he has happening at all?

I suppose when you work every day in a trade and something unusual comes
along ...well
"it takes good instincts coupled with lots of bench experience. A solid
understanding of the fundamentals won't hurt, but will help with the
"separation" process".

He's on that page ...he has my ear ...and Its time to stop regurgitating the
same old same old....

Chet

There you go again, Chet. The guy is a total stranger to you - he
could be absolutely anyone... any old nut-job - but you are again
believing every word this strangers says? In reality you know
absolutely nothing about him. Is he really a Professor...? I very
much doubt it after the gibberish he has been spouting about
neutrinos! A Professor in what exactly? Have you seen his
qualifications? No, of course you haven't you are simply taking this
stranger at his word as per usual.

Did I mention that my mom is actually the Queen of England... no
kidding, really... I have photos of her on you-tube to prove it!

So Chet, are you dismissing the Profs, neutrino and MHz
explanation in favour of cavitation... you didn't say? You also failed
to shed any light on this new picture that shows these new
frequencies... can you at least enlighten us about that?

One more thing Chet, you can't simply and continually provide a
link to your friend the Pistol Shrimp, as if by way of explanation,
every time you are backed into a corner.

12

Looks like NASA is involved with one of these cavitation heater
companies, though they don't mention overunity, just "efficient
heating", but we know better ! LOL ;D

http://www.sti.nasa.gov/tto/spinoff2000/ip3.htm

12

WW, this is what I'm thinking.

1) A low pressure wave is present at the electrodes, so water vaporizes and
create many small bubles around the electrodes, WITH MINIMUM ENERGY
INPUT, because of the low pressure.

2) A high pressure wave returns, and now the tiny bubles are compressed
and forced to condense, so higher energy is realized upon condensation.

It may sounds crazy, but according to phase change data, there are different
heat contents required depending on the external pressure.

There you have it folks, EM strikes again! LOL :D

EM

PS. Actually, energy would be accounted for by the pressure wave and what it
does at the other end.

I dont think any of us will ever convince Chet and his flock to
apply a little grey matter and commonsense to this, as they dont
seem interested in educating themselves, clearly preferring to
reside in faery land.

However, if we disregard the neutrino nonsense altogether, and
likewise the beer can tuning bullshit, and all these random
frequencies that are depicted, then the reality of the situation is
that we are left with resistive heating and the possibility of
cavitation.

Cavitation is something Im currently working with regarding
electrolysis, and it is not that hard to create between two or more
current carrying electrodes that can freely vibrate. But far from
being super-complicated (multiple frequencies, etc) or mysterious
(neutrinos), it comes down to the simple fact that the currents
flowing in the device and through the water will set up magnetic
fields, which will interact and cause the electrodes to oscillate,
thereby creating areas of compression and rarefaction within the
water.

What occurs in cavitation is a low pressure area forms during
rarefaction whereby the liquid water forms into a gas bubble, but
then collapses in on itself at a phenomenal rate as the pressure
increases and it reverts to liquid state. The implosion creates
incredible localized pressures and temperatures, but all this
happens on a microscopic level and so overall heating effects are
minimal. Dissolved atmospheric gases such as O2 and N2 within
the water will also play a part. Now, there is some evidence that
suggests that cavitation is more efficient in dissociating water than
Faraday electrolysis, so the possibility exists that cavitation surely
will enhance resistive heating in some manner, but to say that
resistive heating does not occur would be is, Chet sheer
madness.

Its time to throw away the magic beans and faery dust, get an
education, learn a little real science and stop talking utter bollocks!

One thing to note is that if cavitation is taking place and enhancing
the resistive heating process in some way, then a percentage of
gases, other than water vapour, should be evident. Not least
hydrogen and oxygen. But unlike electrolysis, the pressures and
temperatures seen in cavitation will also give rise to more exotic
gas species, such as hydrogen peroxide and others.

12

that's very interesting Farrah Day, so even the electrodes can
vibrate due to electromagnetic forces ... more to ponder I guess.
by the way, is Chet and the others on the other forum saying
that resistive heating does NOT take place? That should be
obvious to anyone I would think.

I had another thought.

If there is truly extra energy created in a cavitation/sonic
boiler/whatever, and the metal surfaces are pited due to
cavitation, that also represents an exothermic reaction. Just
because the metal does not react chemicaly, but instead breaks up
into tiny pieces, bonds are still breaking and they release energy
into the water.

So there we have it, yet another mechanism to consider before
screaming to the world that we have achived OVERUNITY! :D
(I hope I'm not accusing anybody, lol)

EM

PS, If we could break every metalic bond between the atoms of a
1 cm^3 cube of metal, say Iron, I bet you that the energy that
would be released would be HUGE! maybe on the order of one ton
of gasoline? maybe more? I hope somebody does a calculation
...

Now there is a theory I can sink my teeth into. ;D

12
Post by: Chet K on 2012-01-04, 02:24:39

HHHMMMM
Farrah
This is why I love you ............ You're so smart ,well educated and
you have experience in at least two of the fields necessary to
evaluate this device.... once you get a chance to see it "Do what It
do"!!

The device I'm speaking of, as well as the person whom I speak
with,are not a beer can or professor Savic!!
No info or formulas for "How its done" are anywhere to be found
on Energetic...
Yes it did evolve from the Can

But its quite "Evolved" and very Cool [well hot actually].

I hope you will be pleasantly surprised!!

@EM
I believe ultimately we will get what witts has with this one!!

THX
Chet

12

OK Ladies and Angrymen, (as opposed to Gentlmen) :D

I read this article about Mr. Griggs Hydrosonic pump:
http://www.rexresearch.com/griggs/griggs.htm

and I came to the conclusion that the use of electricity directly in
the water, to cause cavitation, is a better method, because if we
use a motor like Mr Grigs does, the motor has ineficiencies. But
if electricity is used directly to heat the water, all the heat
delivered through resistance heating is applied to the water.

So, to perfect such a water heater device, it is imperative that as
much CAVITATION as possible should be created from the flow of
electricity. So now it makes sense that we should have electrodes
that vibrate as wildly as possible, as Farrah Day suggested, or use
some other transducer method like Mr Thrapp's perhaps, but
overall, we want to cause as much cavitation as possible.

Also note that in the article posted, they mention the cleaning
effect on the metal surfaces, which again makes me wonder if
pitting of the surface is taking place thus releasing energy from
the metalic bonds directly into the water. In this case the "FUEL"
is the metal casing of the device itself, and no it would not have an
"indefinite" life, but a limited life. So could we patent a
disposable water heater?

No, you can't patent that, it's my idea! ;D :D (all rights
reserved!) :o 8)

EM

12

I found a paper that calculated some atomic bond energies, not of
pure metals, but close enough to get an idea.
http://www.wag.caltech.edu/publications/sup/pdf/208.pdf

If you look at table II, we notice for FeH+, that the bond energy
is about 55 kcal/mole. There is a lot of energy if we break all
the bonds in a mole of iron and H ion.

For the sake of argument: Let's say it takes 100 kcal/mol of
energy to break all the bonds in a mole of solid Iron. Now, how
much energy is that, and how much is a mol?

From the periodic table, a mole of Fe, or Iron, weighs 55.85
grams. Using the density of Iron, 7.874 g/cm^3, we have a
volume of: 55.85/7.874 = 7.1 cm^3, or a small cube of about
2 cm on each side. (2x2x2=8cm^3, so slightly bigger then our
number, but close enough)

So vaporizing or totaly obliterating such a small cube of material
by violent cavitation processes, should yield a caloric heat value on
the order of 100 kcal. How much energy is that? or rather how
much can the temperature of water change from such energy
input?

Let's assume a liter of water, and calculate the temperature
difference. Water's specific heat is 1cal/g/deg C, so 100 kcal,
would raise one gram of water by 100 thousand deg C (if
prevented from boiling obviously but imposible at these levels of
heat injection) If we talk in terms of a liter of water, (1 liter
= 1000 grams) then 100 kcal would raise 1 liter of water by 100
deg C.

To put this in perspective, this can bring 1 liter of water
from 0 deg C (freezing) to 100 deg C (boiling) temperature

Now that is awesome! Who's going to be the first to
congratulate me on this amazing breakthrough! LOL ;D :D

Mystery Solved! 8)

EM

12

I found a paper that calculated some atomic bond energies, not of pure metals,
but close enough to get an idea.
http://www.wag.caltech.edu/publications/sup/pdf/208.pdf

If you look at table II, we notice for FeH+, that the bond energy is about 55
kcal/mole. There is a lot of energy if we break all the bonds in a mole of iron
and H ion.
...
To put this in perspective, this can bring 1 liter of water from 0 deg C
(freezing) to 100 deg C (boiling) temperature

Now that is awesome! Who's going to be the first to congratulate me on this
amazing breakthrough! LOL

Don't put the cart before the horse :). Your point is interesting,
we could tap the bond energy. Now, the bond energy (as that
given in the tables of the paper) is the heat required to break one
Mole of molecules into their individual atoms. The creation of
bonds is exothermic and releases energy, not the break.
And if your idea is to break the bonds with less energy than the
bond energy, then the system should cool by absorbing the
complementary energy from the environment. It could be also
very interesting but not in the way you are expecting.

12

Quote
I believe ultimately we will get what witts has with this one!!

Chet:

From that Witts water heater clip:
Quote
A stainless steel sphere with 1.7 gallons of water starts at 101 degrees F and
rises to 184 degrees F in two minutes from 1.62 watts input from a 9 volt
battery supplying .18 amps.

Normally 1.7 US gallons of water would require 10,296 watts of energy at
100% efficiency to be raised from 101 to 184 degrees F in 2 minutes. This is
super efficient at over 6000 X more heat from the input of electricity.

There are no catalysts, heavy water or other exotic materials required as in
cold fusion and no harmful radiation is released. The stimulus for this research
& development was John Keely's Sympathetic Vibratory Physics using
frequencies in combination with shapes of materials.

In that clip you never "see" the water temperature at the start of
the "test." The water could have started off in a beaker where the
person puts a digital thermometer in the water and shows the
temperature and even puts their fingers in the water. Then they
pour the water into the spherical container and start the "heating
process." Of course even that could be faked all that you need to
do is a seamless video edit but that's probably too difficult for the
Witts boys to do.

Instead all that you see is what appears to be the Witts guy
pouring hot water into a bucket at the end of the clip. The clip
starts off with the water already inside the sphere.

The conclusion Chet is that the water was already hot at the start
of the test.

It just baffles me that you apparently can be led to believe
nonsense like this. You may as well have a Post-It note on your
forehead that says, "Steal my money."

Not to mention that the Witts boys come off as totally uneducated
electronics country bumpkins that know how to stack hay but have
no clue whatsoever with respect to electronics or energy. In other
words, the same deal as the Serbian "professor" and Fast Freddy
and Aaron and hundreds of others pitching crackpot free energy
schemes.

A recent comment from one of the Witts boys from that infamous
clip:
Quote
@42apostate We do offer teachings for anyone who wants to build the heater.
See Our website. Gifts page. First Gift

You make reference to people not participating in the EF thread
that are "researching" the sonic water heater. My guess is that
they are either deluded or they are conning you.

Finally, about that pic of the little kid holding the "professor's"
corroded water heater attached to two wires. That looks like an
electrocution waiting to happen if you are not careful. That point
was raised at the beginning of this thread and it's worth
mentioning again.

It's like the EF thread is a match made in heaven. On one side
you have the clueless free energy con artist pitch men and on the
other side you have the over unity enthusiast zombies that want
so desperately to believe that you can say or do anything and they
keep coming. It's like a slow-motion schlock B-movie horror film.

MileHigh

12
Post by: cheappower2012 on 2012-01-04, 10:55:18

I think the WITTs water heater or Hemisphere Quantum Fuelless
Generator
are a natural for the PhysicsProf to do a though analysis ,there
both free energy,LOL. O0

12

I said that I wouldn't quote anymore from the EF thread but I am
going to cave in:

Here are the comments from the Serbian "professor" about his
latest creation:
Quote
Stats on Professor Savic Peter Davey Device

Last night I measured the vapor sonic boiler with the electrode in the form of a
ball and cup at the top. The ball resonates at 900 Hz and 400 Hz in the cup
with maximum current of 3.6 Amp and 1.2 Amp minimum. The voltage was
228 V; vapor 53.9 g during grejanja.360 seconds. The initial amount of water
in 298ml Court; the initial water temperature 20 degrees Celsius, and final
temperature of 100 degrees. COP = 2.25 Celsius

NOTE, I did not take into account the heat capacity of the heater and the court
or the emission of heat from the court.. So COP is greater than this number.
No electrodes inside the ball as the originals because they have no hard steel
so that it could be as at 0.1mm. This further increases to 2:57.
The ball is in my cup the positive electrode and negative.

Publish this on forum.

"COP = 2.25"

By the way, "grejanja" is Serbian for "heating." So perhaps the
proper translation in the middle of the text is, "The voltage was
228 VAC; steam production of 53.9 grams during 360 seconds of
heating."

The problem is that there is no input energy measurement
data. Yet nobody on the EF thread has anything to say about this.
Similarly, how does the "professor" increase the COP to 2.57.
One more time, there is no data.

We also know that it is extremely difficult to measure a relatively
small amount of AC input energy over a short period of time unless
you have a full DSO setup or something akin to that. I will assume
that the Serbian dude does not have any sophisticated equipment.
If he did we would most likely have been told about it a long time
ago.

My conclusion is that the Serbian "professor's" "data" is pure
garbage and anybody that reads what he posted that is reasonably
astute should arrive at the same conclusion.

MileHigh

12
Post by: Chet K on 2012-01-04, 13:22:50

MH
With all respect to professor Savic
I have not been speaking about his rendering of this Tech for at
least a month or more!

Nor his first device [the one Banislav is holding in the PIC] that
lead him to spend years researching and building until it got to the
basic shape of the Can and the small drive ring in Slovenias PDF's!

The real issue at the moment ... the single biggest issue in the
way of Open Source is

How do you release something Open Source and not get a knock
on the door a few weeks later telling you to cease and desist you
are violating a new patent ,one that has just been released
[after it was seen here on the internet ]

How do you prevent some Scum from patenting your idea and
locking your own door on you??

HOW???
You yes I must add Thats assuming they would ever Grant a
patent in the first place [or Seize it]

Chet
PS
Exnihiloest
A few observations from experiments [not Savics ] .at first the
cans would start to disappear in a few hours, Savic said they were
not properly tuned... If resonance was achieved this would stop
happening !
Well a new tuning rig came into the equation and a new material
[after Savic asked for help getting Titanium sheets and a big signal
generator]

So the Can path was put aside

A self tuning rig was devised with proprietary hardware running a
stainless rig [at this point an ikea thermos Mod]
Observations
A funny smell almost instantly upon switch on ? [no Ozone ]
An extreme loss of water with no real condensation around ?

Bubbles that seem to stay for hours and hours after switch off ,on
the surface and in the water!
Now a slight sound can be heard thru the manifold ? [from the
latest much smaller rendering ]

EXnihiloest
Suppose its possible to achieve this condition you describe above
....The molecule bonds weakening and yielding ....suppose the
professor found a way thru the unique architecture .. power and
Resonance to manifest this condition with less input power than we
thought possible??

The recombining heat would be the Source of our Heat here!
Oh ,And there is no deterioration of any of the components for at
least 10 weeks now!

@ALL
HOW do we keep the bad guys from Steeling things??[with out
going for a patent that could be denied for security reasons]

THX
Chet

12

Chet:

"Years of researching and building" makes me laugh. You are
blind. The Serbian guy has no credibility. He bitch-slaps the
Archduke of Austria for fun.
Quote
How do you release something Open Source and not get a knock on the door a
few weeks later telling you to cease and desist you are violating a new patent
,one that has just been released
[after it was seen here on the internet ]

I am not an expert on patents. Am I to assume that this is a
patent for an "over unity heater" but the patent is not worded like
that because the US patent office won't accept patents for
allegedly over unity devices?

From what I understand you are free to replicate and test any
patent no problem. What you can't do is build and sell a device for
profit without the approval of the patent holder.

Assuming this is true then I have a suggestion. Build and test the
thing and co crazy. You can talk about it and build it no problem,
nobody can stop you. You are not "violating" anything by doing
this.

Perhaps I am missing something here but perhaps not.

Build and test the thing and share the results. Of hire somebody
to build and test the thing and share the results.

You will find out that the patent is bullshit and then try to turn the
page and move on to something else. Try to get the people on the
EF to do the same thing.

This whole thing is completely crazy. For the sake of humanity
just try to prove the thing actually works first and forget all about
the patent business. It sounds like somebody is playing you with
this patent issue.

You won't believe me but there is nothing going on here no matter
what version or variation you are talking about. You have no hard
reproducible data at all proving this works, just some people over
the Web and in email or on the phone yanking your chain. I give
up again.

MileHigh

12
Post by: Grumpy on 2012-01-04, 14:59:44

"COP = 2.25" fits nicely with "acoustic heat pump".

12
Post by: Chet K on 2012-01-04, 15:26:33

MH
So you are saying[just for clarity]
Go ahead collect the seeds Sow the ground... water nurish
harvest ... mix, blend, prepare, cook get everything just right
and then let some shmuck steel it eat it and lock you and everyone
else out of the Kitchen!!

Nice model for OU .........
NEXT!!

@G
Cop 7 ATM

Chet

12

Chet, if this thing works, and has worked from the start, then why
is it being continually redesigned with the specifications continually
changing, before anyone has even verified the claims of the initial
design? I mean you all talk about resonance but you folk haven't a
clue what it really implies. Something is not at resonance simply
because it vibrates - and you guys now claim to be tuning the
device to 3 new frequencies. C.C So how does that exactly work in
terms of resonance? ??? (need banging head against wall smilie)

Like MH, and many of us have said from the start, this is plain
crazy, dangerous and indeed quite pointless given the education of
those of you playing with this stuff. And sadly, Chet, you are fast
becoming the leading promoter of all the most mindless garbage
the internet has to offer. Is that really anything to be proud of? :-
[

It's like you never, ever, ever learn, Chet. You never bother to
educate yourself and worse still, you fail miserably to learn from
past mistakes regarding incredible OU claims. You are as
susceptible to scams and cons now as you were when you first
appeared on these forums - it's like you have a 'NAIVE and
GULLIBLE' default setting and you are automatically reset to this
before jumping on the next bandwagon that comes along.

Chet, given your stubborn grip on blind faith and ignorance, and
your casual dismissal of real science, you really do make intelligent
conversation impossible. :(

12
Post by: Grumpy on 2012-01-04, 16:52:52

@G
Cop 7 ATM

Chet

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_highest_COP_available_o
n_a_heat_pump

Still close.

12
Post by: Chet K on 2012-01-04, 16:55:32

Once again
We are not discussing HERE the savic rendering .....There are No
three different frequencies ETC ETC being discussed [nor
implied]......... No Neutrino's
Nor any improvements being discussed beyond the move away
from using a beer can!

So You folks come here to discuss things for industry ??
To sell and make money??
To Patent ?
Or does anyone here have any idea how to open source a device
with out patenting??

If this can be covered here [how to Open Source ]....We can stop
all the silly "I'm smarter than you ....you couldn't possibly be doing
something I don't understand Talk"!!

And get this Done [Vetted]

Chet
PS
Grumpy
The man I'm speaking with Lives, Eats, Breathes and Poops Heat
Pumps for a long Time..... He is UP on the tech as well as every
inductive ...resistive type water heater you could imagine
This thing is Blowing his Mind [and others]

Some questions

Experimenting!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
Hi!

With a new setup I use to generate steam, I can see steam have a
colour of yellow and light brown. Also it smells a little chlorine.

What does this tell

If I put my steam beam in to propane flame, the flame change to
100% blue and gets alot hotter and longer

I have alot of heat also in water surrounding my steam generator

I am running device on ac, around 100 Hz.

I can not ignite the steam (or what it is) alone.

Does anyone have an idea ?

Kind rgds

12

@FarrahDay
Quote
Chet, given your stubborn grip on blind faith and ignorance, and your casual
dismissal of real science, you really do make intelligent conversation
impossible.
Real science?, I have to wonder what it is you are referring to, is it
when one person calls another person ignorant to the facts when
in fact they have none themselves?, is it when they say there is no
proof when in fact there is no proof one way or the other? or is it
when something everyone has flaunted as a proven fact for
decades is proven to be false?. I'm not sure I understand what
your point is considering the facts, that is that we have none,
which as you may know is not proof of anything one way or the
other.
As well if we are going to preach to others about blind faith,
ignorance and real science then at the very least we should heed
our own words and to be honest I think you are just as misguided
as anyone else here considering your posts.
A lack of proof is not proof of anything one way or another and a
scientific theory such as those we see in science are just that a
theory which persons hope will continue to be accurate in the
future despite the fact that history has shown otherwise. I think
that if we are going to hold others to a certain standard then at
the very least we should meet that standard ourselves.
Regards
AC

12
Post by: Chet K on 2012-01-04, 18:48:42

Farrah
You are the best Chemist I know
Can you shed some light here [pretty please]

Experimenting questions?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
Hi!


What does this tell






Kind rgds D
__________________

12

@ bullies,

please, lets stop bothering Chet. He's just a messenger.

I personally appreciate his periodic updates from other forums,
regardless of my personal opinions. If you want to debate with the
original dudes then feel free to create an account on those other
forums and have at it.

@exnihiloest

If I understand you correctly you are saying that breaking the
chemical bonds should be considered an endothermic reaction
because it requires energy. You are correct. Ok, scratch that
ideal! LOL ;D

This is what I was thinking. We obviously need to inject energy
to break bonds, no doubt about that. But once the threshold level
is achieved, the bond snaps and breaks, and releases some extra
energy. Perhaps what Ive calculated is just the energy it takes
to break the bonds but not the intrinsic energy released upon
bond breakage.

I also found a new website with physical properties for Iron, and it
turns out I guessed very close to the actual value I was looking
for. http://www.chemicool.com/elements/iron.html

HEAT OF ATOMIZATION for Iron = 415 kJ/mol x ( 1 cal/4.184 J)
= 99.2 kcal/mol, and I assumed 100 kcal/mol

This is very close to calculating how much heat it takes to raise a
mol of Iron to its melting point, than boiling temperature, and then
add to that value the Heat of Vaporization and Heat of Fusion, and
you get very close to this atomization value.

12
Post by: Chet K on 2012-01-04, 20:06:18

Farrah
If I have Mr.puddims play you a nice song will you give a quick
opinion??

Hi!


What does this tell






Kind rgds

More Info on conditions and strangeness!!

Neutral, city water and nothing added!

I have no breakdown whatsoever!

The smell is not exactly chlorine but similar, acid in some way

My configuration gives steam a little pressure!

Also after switch off, water stays warm a very long time, 12 litres
was still 30 deg C after 6 h in open bucket and air temp around
was 5 deg C. At switch off water was 60 deg C. So 30 deg C in 6 h
?

During night I will compare with water heated in normal way,
same litres and same temps, that will give some interesting result
I think

Kind rgds D

12

Quote
please, lets stop bothering Chet. He's just a messenger.

I'm not bothering him... he's bothering me! And, No, he's not just
a messenger, EM, he's fast - and no doubt naively - becoming a
first class misinformation agent!
Quote
Farrah
You are the best Chemist I know
Can you shed some light here [pretty please]

Chet, you even have this wrong. I'm not a chemist... and how do
you expect anyone to shed any light on such a ridiculously small
snippet of information? And who the hell is, D?
Quote
Once again
We are not discussing HERE the savic rendering .....There are No three
different frequencies ETC ETC being discussed [nor implied]......... No
Neutrino's
Nor any improvements being discussed beyond the move away from using a
beer can!

Then what exactly ARE we discussing, Chet? Which then, of the
multiple renderings are you personally alluding to? There appears
even to be confusion within the ranks on EF then, as a new
renderings are popping up every day are any of you even on the
same page?

And, perhaps it is just me, but there seems to be a good clue to
whom and what is being implied in the title of this thread.

Chet - and Im really doing my best to be nice here - has it really
not occurred to you that these devices (two bike bells, two spoons,
beer cans, etc) are simply crude water heaters made from any old
parts on hand? Crude but effective ways to heat water when a
mains power supply is available, but no electric heating element
(kettle, etc) is available. Something that has the benefit of
working at any old mains voltage, but still simply a poor mans
kettle element, that you folk have latched onto as being a new
device with mysterious properties. Really, Chet, dont you see any
of this?

12

Chet:

How about this for a clean slate:

So you have a friend that claims he or she is showing COP = 7. I
am assuming that this friend is not on the EF thread and you are
convinced that he/she is on to something. I will also assume that
this might be the person that you are agonizing about the patent
issue with.

Unfortunately, based on the track record, I am going to also
assume that you only have anecdotal evidence about this person's
claims.

So how about we vet this person's claim right here? We don't
have to see the device, he or she can submit a picture of the setup
and simply put a piece of cardboard in front of the device itself.
What we want to see is the setup and the input and output power
(or more likely energy) measurements and how they are measured
and calculated. The actual device can be a black box as far as
everyone is concerned.

I will repeat, we do not have to see the device at all. Assuming
that they are willing to have their claim vetted, then there is no
reason for this person to balk. No one will see the device itself
and the patent information will remain privy to this person.

Does that sound fair enough? Let's see if there is any substance
behind the COP 7 claim. This is the real thing Chet, we are looking
for real, credible measurements and you can expect real feedback
from the people in this forum.

If a miracle happens and you are told it all seems to look good, so
much the better for you. If it looks like junk, then you will be told
it is junk. You can decide if you want to move on and look at the
next prospect that comes along.

MileHigh

12
Post by: ION on 2012-01-04, 21:27:33

Without good "build and test" documentation control e.g. in the
form of a pdf with titles and REV numbers, people are hopelessly
doomed to running in circles of confusion.

The document would need a good description and pertinent
engineering info, such as intents and purposes, detailed build info,
timing diagrams, detailed test setup description and lots of I/O
test data.

Links to other sites etc. is one of the worst ways to control and
document info, as links become dead after a while.

I refuse to take most of the stuff on OU sites as credible until
people can get their act together and present information properly,
and in a paper worth the time to read or build from.

12

Another way is to show at least something and give quick answers
to any and all questions.

12
Post by: Chet K on 2012-01-04, 23:03:30

Hi
My name is Chet I want a clean Slate

---------------------------------------------
I'll give him a ring??
THX
Chet

12

Chet:

Sounds great and I did a little edit to my last posting:

<<< What we want to see is the setup and the input and output
power (or more likely energy) measurements and how they are
measured and calculated. >>>

MileHigh

12
Post by: Chet K on 2012-01-04, 23:32:56

MH
In the long run this should help this cause considerably ....as
people are getting together to help this become Open source !!

No luck tonight I'll try again tomorrow .

THX
Chet

12
Post by: Chet K on 2012-01-05, 03:17:39

MH
I know you have seen it all regarding "working devices" on this
and other forums !
Me Too,
I also know that in this community you are the staunchest
opponent of OU with very good experience and credibility.That is
why I come here! Its sort of my lifes business model ,how I
always did and continue to do things!

I have spoken with many men over the years By phone and in
person claiming to have OU!
Since I don't ever hide my real Name to them [as apposed to
some internet handle} I have never had a bad experience even
with some of the more noteworthy Men sharing their ideas and
expectations.

Everyone of them to a T was going for a patent
Every single one!!

I have never seen one of their devices come to market and to be
perfectly honest, I had very little understanding of how any of
them could possibly have worked?
I signed NDA's verbal agreements ETC ETC .

This one is different ....there is something going on beyond the
building of this device .... a chain of events as well as some pretty
amazing circumstance has led to this being "Understood"!
I can not tell you how much this one person has impressed me
with his Humility ,Honesty. and integrity...
A man apart....
It has been my lifes experience to deal with all manner of men ,in
all walks of life.... for over 40yrs

Never met a man like this....
He knows "the right thing to do" Open source ! He just wants to
make sure History doesn't repeat itself making the device a "No
show" in the world.
Me Too!!

That being said .... there is most definitely something special going
on!

There is a behind the scenes arrangement in the works to Vet this
device !
It seems to be taking some time to happen ... Perhaps this small
evaluation will help to expedite that arrangement ,,The end goal of
which is Open source !

I hope this can be a good experience for this community and the
world .
A black box test
some numbers ...techniques ... discussed !
A work in progress!

We shall see??

Chet
PS
I must add the members here have more experience than most in
the field of OU research ,the skill levels professionalism and
education of you folks makes this a no brainer for me!!

PPS
To ANY ONE that reads this and wants to contribute and join this
Forum ....It has become invitation only do to attacks from Bots
and such.
PM me at energetic or overunity and the administration here will
set you up!

12

Chet:

I definitely sense your sincerity and I think it is highly
commendable. I have backed off from the forums in general and
really don't follow much so it means I have more bandwidth to
follow one thing.

Believe it or not, I am serious when I say my intention is to help
you and others in the thread to make a decision on this proposition
so that you can move on to other things if that's how it turns out.
I don't know if you can understand the sinking feeling that myself
and others may feel when I read some of the stuff put forward by
some people pitching their free energy propositions. You feel
sometimes like you are in a place where nothing is making any
sense but nobody seems to notice. Imagine taking your car in for
a tune up and you chat with the mechanic and you realize that he
doesn't know the difference between metric and English sockets.
He doesn't know that your gar runs on gasoline and he doesn't
understand that there is a difference between gasoline and diesel
fuel. He opens your oil cap and starts to put antifreeze in the
engine. He doesn't care or even understand what your tire
pressure is. Then you look around and all the other mechanics
continue working as if nothing special is going on. Other
customers are around you and they don't seem to care or
comment about what's going on.

That's the analogy for what happens many times in the free
energy forums. The Serbian "professor" is advancing his
proposition in the same way as the crazy mechanic. He submits a
"temperature vs. current" graph which makes no sense at all and
nobody says anything, they just carry on with what they are doing.
I am not "overly emotionally involved" but I can tell you even with
being only partially emotionally involved sometimes it's
emotionally draining.

Another analogy just occurred to me, perhaps it's a bit of a
stretch. Look at YouTube clips of the Vancouver riot. What's
abnormal becomes normal. People are trying to torch $50,000
police cars and others just walk by and don't care or they even
cheer them on. That was a mind-bender, a real mess. It's a
mind-bender to see ridiculous nonsensical techno-junk presented
as a serious free energy proposition sometimes. How come Aaron
can't understand the energy dynamics of a bouncing ball? How
come ###### talks about a Bloch wall in a standard bar magnet
when there isn't one and nobody says anything?

Anyway, you seem to be saying that we will not have the
opportunity to vet your friend's COP 7 proposition because he is
supposedly taking care of it himself. That's unfortunate because
sometimes you can tell in as little as 10 sentences that someone
really doesn't know what they are doing and they are full of crap.
It sounds to me like you are being played. This person probably
fears that he will be "outed" quite quickly and his "deal" will fall
apart.

That's the way the cookie crumbles.

MileHigh

12

Quote from: Grumpy on 2012-01-04, 16:52:52
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_highest_COP_available_on_a_heat_pu
mp
...

Another interesting question would be: what COP is needed for a
heat pump to self-run?

12

...
You feel sometimes like you are in a place where nothing is making any sense
but nobody seems to notice. Imagine taking your car in for a tune up and you
chat with the mechanic and you realize that he doesn't know the difference
between metric and English sockets. He doesn't know that your gar runs on
gasoline and he doesn't understand that there is a difference between gasoline
and diesel fuel. He opens your oil cap and starts to put antifreeze in the
engine. He doesn't care or even understand what your tire pressure is. Then
you look around and all the other mechanics continue working as if nothing
special is going on. Other customers are around you and they don't seem to
care or comment about what's going on.

Great lived experience ;). I experienced the same almost every
day on some other forums. And the worst comes when these
ignorants explain their infused knowledge with a lot of nonsenses
devoid of facts, measurements and math, and pretend that you
are wrong and you don't understand because of your allegiance to
the Academy and of your inability to think outside the box.
Since year 2000 and the discovery of the Dunning-Kruger effect,
awarded by a Nobel price, we can be much less emotionally
concerned: even though what these people assert are insults to
intelligence, we have now the rational reason of their behavior.
We must just rapidly reject their claims by lack of evidence and
certainly not enter in the details of explanations because their
psychological sickness prevent them from comprehending logical
and rational dialogs on Internet.

12

exnihiloest,

While I agree the D/K effect is in evidence on these forums I must
disagree that it is a psychological sickness. If it is then we are all
mentally ill.

Clearly, you place yourself on the higher end of that scale and
repeatedly pronounce the ignorance of others. I do the same.
Where does that actually place us on the D/K effect scale?

We don't need to declare the stupidity or ignorance of others. That
brings our own into question. Just disregarding claims without
proof is enough.

I think Chet would score very well using the Dunning-Kruger effect
as a standard. ;)

Is that your secret, Chet? Are you playing us all like a deck of
cards? ???

12

Chet, I don't know if you can understand the sinking feeling that myself and
others may feel when I read some of the stuff put forward by some people
pitching their free energy propositions. You feel sometimes like you are in a
place where nothing is making any sense but nobody seems to notice. Imagine
taking your car in for a tune up and you chat with the mechanic and you realize
that he doesn't know the difference between metric and English sockets. He
doesn't know that your gar runs on gasoline and he doesn't understand that
there is a difference between gasoline and diesel fuel. He opens your oil cap
and starts to put antifreeze in the engine. He doesn't care or even understand
what your tire pressure is. Then you look around and all the other mechanics
continue working as if nothing special is going on. Other customers are around
you and they don't seem to care or comment about what's going on.

Quote from: exnihiloest on 2012-01-05, 09:53:35
Great lived experience ;). I experienced the same almost every day on some
other forums. And the worst comes when these ignorants explain their infused
knowledge with a lot of nonsenses devoid of facts, measurements and math,
and pretend that you are wrong and you don't understand because of your
allegiance to the Academy and of your inability to think outside the box.
Since year 2000 and the discovery of the Dunning-Kruger effect, awarded by a
Nobel price, we can be much less emotionally concerned: even though what
these people assert are insults to intelligence, we have now the rational reason
of their behavior.
We must just rapidly reject their claims by lack of evidence and certainly not
enter in the details of explanations because their psychological sickness
prevent them from comprehending logical and rational dialogs on Internet.

Brilliant - well put guys. O0

12
Post by: Chet K on 2012-01-05, 14:24:30

MH
The intent would be as you outlined in your post! I have not been
able to speak with him yet [working away from home this week].
Please don't assume anything has Changed regarding power in and
out .
The ongoing behind the scenes effort is all about vetting the device
!
And making this available to the world as well as rewarding the
inventors !

This would help bring more support for that effort!

I am super busy today with limited access to the phone and
internet!

THX
Chet

12
Post by: Chet K on 2012-01-05, 14:53:54

OK
Its a go ,I just hung up ....He's more excited than me!! He found
out in addition to all this heat he's getting peroxide ?
He has a good Camera [gonna be a Movie}

Any Hoo I asked him to out line the test procedure first ,so we can
be sure its acceptable!

Sweet!!

THX
Chet!

12
Post by: Chet K on 2012-01-05, 17:47:54

Some thoughts

Perhaps we should have a collective bench mark !

As MH Put it .....A clean slate!
Leave personal history on the other side of the mark .for the time
being you can keep sharpening your axes.... ,just don't bring them
here!

Any one having a problem with this please see a doctor!

I have asked Steve to have input here as well as any others with
testing experience, My role is for the most part Done!

THX
Chet

12

@Milehigh
Quote
Another analogy just occurred to me, perhaps it's a bit of a stretch. Look at
YouTube clips of the Vancouver riot. What's abnormal becomes normal.
People are trying to torch $50,000 police cars and others just walk by and
don't care or they even cheer them on. That was a mind-bender, a real mess.
It's a mind-bender to see ridiculous nonsensical techno-junk presented as a
serious free energy proposition sometimes. How come Aaron can't understand
the energy dynamics of a bouncing ball? How come ###### talks about a
Bloch wall in a standard bar magnet when there isn't one and nobody says
anything?

I know how you feel, however this is not to say I agree with what
you have said because I see this lack of understanding on both
sides of the fence. For instance, if there is no Bloch wall then can
you explain these links specifically referring to the bloch wall?.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloch_wall
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/pssb.2220570121/abst
ract
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1952PhRv...85.1003H
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960077996000
872
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12689137
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/03759601829023
16

Now the question remains, how is it every branch of science
having impecible credentials recognizes the Bloch wall as real if not
obvious yet you seem to be telling us it does not exist or is
somehow imaginary?. As well a quick google on the Bloch wall led
me to this post that you made in this forum.
Quote
###### discusses inductors as electromagnets, and bar magnets, in the EFTV
series as two examples of devices that exhibit Bloch walls, where the Bloch wall
cuts the electromagnet or magnet in two lengthwise pieces at the center of the
device. For starters, by definition there are no Bloch walls associated with a
coil (a.k.a.; an electromagnet). That doesn't even make any sense. A regular
bar magnet does not possess a Bloch wall either.
There are not two "poles that come together in the center of the magnet (or an
electromagnet)." It's almost unbelievable that he would say that. It's
approaching "litmus test" territory.
More importantly, for emphasis, there is no Bloch wall in a standard bar
magnet at all.

The fact of the matter is that I could post literally hundreds upon
hundreds of credible papers from respected science journals that
refer specifically to the "Bloch Wall" which is in fact a very hot area
of research for obvious reasons. As well we could ask why there is
such interest in something which you seem to believe does not
exist for reasons I find hard to fathom. The reason is obvious, if
one end of a magnet is considered a magnetic pole and the
opposite end is considered an opposite magnetic pole then
between them there must be a region which does not have the
properties of either pole. Just as a water pump which has pressure
on one side and a suction on the other must have a region
between the pressure and suction sides which has neither pressure
nor suction, it is at ambient conditions. Let's make this easy ---

Newton's laws of motion:
Third law: The mutual forces of action and reaction between two
bodies are equal, opposite and collinear.

If action and reaction are equal and opposite as dictated by the
conservation of energy then there must be a point dividing the
action from the reaction which is neither an action nor a reaction,
it is neither. The Bloch wall exists because if it did not this would
be a violation of damn near every fundamental law of science.
There is always a region which divides equal and opposite
conditions --- ALWAYS---, a region divides up from down, left from
right, in from out, sky from ground, push from pull, black from
white, pressure from suction etc... and it is apparent and obvious
this is the case including the Bloch wall found in every magnet field
without exception. This is a fundamental premise to all natural and
scientific laws that we know of and is obvious to everyone who
understands these laws.

You have failed the litmus test.

Regards
AC

12

Chet:

How about this for a clean slate:

So you have a friend that claims he or she is showing COP = 7. I am assuming
that this friend is not on the EF thread and you are convinced that he/she is on
to something. I will also assume that this might be the person that you are
agonizing about the patent issue with.

Unfortunately, based on the track record, I am going to also assume that you
only have anecdotal evidence about this person's claims.

So how about we vet this person's claim right here? We don't have to see
the device, he or she can submit a picture of the setup and simply put a
piece of cardboard in front of the device itself. What we want to see is
the setup and the input and output power (or more likely energy)
measurements and how they are measured and calculated. The actual
device can be a black box as far as everyone is concerned.

I will repeat, we do not have to see the device at all. Assuming that they are
willing to have their claim vetted, then there is no reason for this person to
balk. No one will see the device itself and the patent information will remain
privy to this person.

Does that sound fair enough? Let's see if there is any substance behind the
COP 7 claim. This is the real thing Chet, we are looking for real, credible
measurements and you can expect real feedback from the people in this forum.

If a miracle happens and you are told it all seems to look good, so much the
better for you. If it looks like junk, then you will be told it is junk. You can
decide if you want to move on and look at the next prospect that comes along.

MileHigh

I concur with this testing procedure and thank Chet for working to
get this accomplished:
Quote
We don't have to see the device, he or she can submit a picture of the
setup and simply put a piece of cardboard in front of the device itself.
What we want to see is the setup and the input and output power (or
more likely energy) measurements and how they are measured and
calculated. The actual device can be a black box as far as everyone is
concerned.

In particular, I expect and hope that the inventor (called "D" IIRC)
will use simple calorimetry as I have also discussed above for
measuring the output heat-energy Q:

Q = m x Cg x (Tf - Ti)

The measurement is straightforward when the COP is high as
claimed; remember to stir the water before measuring Tf and Ti
and to insulate the containment vessel! At high COP, a styrofoam
cooler should work fine.

Measuring input energy can be done with a kill-o-watt type meter,
measuring KW-hrs -- as long as the "error-bar" (or sampling error)
is small... Agreed? There are other ways to measure Einput.

Can we agree in advance on acceptable methods for
measuring input energy and output energy? I think this is
important to avoid difficulties later.

12

Also -- .99, haven't heard from you lately and hope you are doing
well.

Regarding the OUR prize -- can you extend the requirement so
that a heat-producing device such as the sonic boiler could
be ALLOWED in the criteria for OU success?

12

Quote
No Bloch wall

Obviously there is an alternate universe the we mere mortals don't
know about.

There was also a previous quote how
Quote
The ignorant believe their own half truths
And
Quote
There can be no claim as to the validty of something unless there are exact
measurements and peer review of stated claims and test results.

Every so often pridefull people step into their own stuff. This
always involves the audience watching.

Old chinese proverb: Man who live in glass house should not throw
stones. Damn! I just broke a wall...

12
Post by: Chet K on 2012-01-05, 21:21:25

@ ALL
I am not sure if I have his E M ,But if anyone could contact Tinsel
Koala ?
This is right up his alley !
I will put out some feelers also
THX
Chet

12

This quote from MH...

"###### discusses inductors as electromagnets, and bar
magnets, in the EFTV series as two examples of devices that
exhibit Bloch walls, where the Bloch wall cuts the electromagnet or
magnet in two lengthwise pieces at the center of the device. For
starters, by definition there are no Bloch walls associated with a
coil (a.k.a.; an electromagnet). That doesn't even make any
sense. A regular bar magnet does not possess a Bloch wall either.
There are not two "poles that come together in the center of the
magnet (or an electromagnet)." It's almost unbelievable that he
would say that. It's approaching "litmus test" territory.
More importantly, for emphasis, there is no Bloch wall in a
standard bar magnet at all."

... IS completely correct.

The only part of the Wiki article that is correct is where they
mention that the correct name is Ne'el Wall(or has it been edited
again?). There is no macroscopic division line between North and
South poles. Virtually ALL free energy researcher use of the term
'Bloch Wall' is a gross misinterpretation. Magnets and coils only
have Ne'el walls, i.e. a gradient or connection between N/S.

Heaven help the ones calling it a 'Blotch Wall' ;D

The other links posted by AC appear to be realistic uses of the
terminology and refer to the boundary between up/down spin
domains of adjacent moving charged particles.

The closest you can get to a Bloch Wall, in the macroscopic world,
is the null point between two opposing magnets.

12

So in a bar magnet the north and south poles are simply a
distribution that lie between the magnet and the outside world?

12
Post by: poynt99 on 2012-01-05, 23:30:55

AC,

I understood them, but I believe you have misconstrued what MH
said and meant by his postings on the Bloch Wall.

He did not say that a Bloch Wall does not exist, but said it is not
what most erroneously refer to as the centre of a magnet along its
axis.

A Bloch Wall exists any time there is a transition between the
polarity of one magnetic domain to another.

You researched and typed a lot of stuff for nothing, unless of
course you learned something in the process.

.99

12

Chet:

I don't think that you or anyone on the forum should get into any
discussions at all with your friend that is claiming COP 7. You are
just opening the door for fudging and back-tracking and endless
debates back and forth for nothing. It's a recipe for failure one
more time.

You said that he has COP 7 presumably because that's exactly
what he told you. He has made the statement. So the onus is on
this person to tell us how he arrived at this conclusion. We are
making the fair and reasonable assumption that this person did his
tests and made his measurements to arrive at COP 7 and that he
knows what he is doing.

We don't need any kind of internal debate on the forum to make
up a list or establish a procedure or anything. Let this person
present his COP 7 proposition and make his case no questions
asked.

AC and Giantkiller:

You guys are demonstrating the Dunning-Kruger effect.

I never said that Bloch walls don't exist, I simply said that they
don't exist in a standard bar magnet. It's impossible for them to
exist in an air coil.
Quote
The reason is obvious, if one end of a magnet is considered a magnetic pole
and the opposite end is considered an opposite magnetic pole then between
them there must be a region which does not have the properties of either pole.

There are not really "two pole regions" with some sort of a "neutral
zone" in between them. In real life there is no such thing a a
"magnetic pole" in the truest sense. That is simply a naming
convention to facilitate talking about magnets and magnetic fields.
Magnetic field lines travel in closed loops. So just like a circle has
no start or end, magnetic fields don't have poles.
Quote
So in a bar magnet the north and south poles are simply a distribution that lie
between the magnet and the outside world?

Pie-in-the-sky talk Giantkiller. You and many others often use
terms that are meaningless without a qualifier. A "distribution?" A
distribution of what?

A bar magnet is simply a piece of ferrous metal with a
homogenous arrangement of magnetic moments for the majority
of the ferrous molecules so it looks like a single giant integral
magnetic domain. There are no Bloch walls.

So it appears that both of you may have been playing around with
magnets on your benches for years without the most basic
understanding of how they work. I suppose that we could make a
reasonable extrapolation and assume that the majority of free
energy experimenters don't understand how they work. That's
why ###### can spout his nonsense and get away with it.

I recommend that both of you go to the Hyperphysics web site and
do some other searches and reading in order to master
"Magnetism 101."

MileHigh

12
Post by: Chet K on 2012-01-06, 00:45:12

MH
How true!!
I was just adding a little courtesy to the equation !

A procedure was never in question ,I just wanted him to give me
some rough idea of how he does it[that was my fault I asked
him]?

You are correct ...No need to get any one who has never done this
involved ,We can all Google!

Tinsel Koala And I believe Steve has someone With vast
experience in this ??

Good idea !!
Thanks for your input!

Chet

12

So, if we have 2 magnets, both north or south facing each other,
with say a distance between them, then we would have a bloch
wall?

Or the magnets could be replaced by coils to get the same result.

Or 1 magnet and 1 coil both north or south facing each other.
######?

Mags

12

Mags:
Quote
So, if we have 2 magnets, both north or south facing each other, with say a
distance between them, then we would have a bloch wall?

If you put a neutral ferrous bar between the two opposing
magnets and line everything up, and assuming the magnets are
the same strength, then somewhere in the middle of the neutral
ferrous bar you will have a Bloch wall. You have to have ferrous
material to have a Bloch wall.

i.e.; something like this:

|N===S|XXXXXXX|S===N|

If you remove either magnet, then the Bloch wall will disappear in
the remaining two components.

You could do the same thing with two coils or a magnet and a coil.

MileHigh

12

@Poynt99
Quote
He did not say that a Bloch Wall does not exist, but said it is not what most
erroneously refer to as the centre of a magnet along its axis.
I would agree, it was not so much what he said but what was
implied, for instance Milehigh said----
Quote
###### discusses inductors as electromagnets, and bar magnets, in the EFTV
series as two examples of devices that exhibit Bloch walls, where the Bloch wall
cuts the electromagnet or magnet in two lengthwise pieces at the center of the
device. For starters, by definition there are no Bloch walls associated with a
coil (a.k.a.; an electromagnet). That doesn't even make any sense. A regular
bar magnet does not possess a Bloch wall either.
There are not two "poles that come together in the center of the magnet (or an
electromagnet)." It's almost unbelievable that he would say that. It's
approaching "litmus test" territory.
More importantly, for emphasis, there is no Bloch wall in a standard bar
magnet at all.

Or maybe a person could have just said "###### misused the
term "Bloch wall" as most people often do", I don't think we have
to imply someone is unbelievable, incompetent or has no
credibility simply because they used a term out of context. I
wonder how many actually knew the exact meaning of the term
before they googled it?.

@Wavewatcher
Quote
The only part of the Wiki article that is correct is where they mention that the
correct name is Ne'el Wall(or has it been edited again?). There is no
macroscopic division line between North and South poles. Virtually ALL free
energy researcher use of the term 'Bloch Wall' is a gross misinterpretation.
Magnets and coils only have Ne'el walls, i.e. a gradient or connection between
N/S.

Gross misinterpretation?, wow that sounds serious --- or is it
simply referred to as slang where large groups of people use a
term which may not have the same definition as that found in the
dictionary. Do you think I should believe you are stupid and peg
you as a free energy nut if you ever use a term out of context? , I
thought so.

@Milehigh
Quote
I recommend that both of you go to the Hyperphysics web site and do some
other searches and reading in order to master "Magnetism 101."
Do you think Hyperphysics can tell me what a magnetic field is
fundamentally-- not what it does what it is?, Maybe you could help
you see I can't seem to find a credible answer to this apparently
simple question anywhere?.
On another topic, I think the forums are going downhill in a big
way, you know the highlight of last year was not anything of
substance it was when I got you to snap and tell me what you
really thought including a few words I won't mention, lol. The
forums are not unlike your magnetic field going round and round
like a cat chasing it's tail which never actually goes anywhere.
That's too bad, it used to be so much more fun when everyone
was passionate about their views right or wrong. In any case I
wish all of you a happy new year, really, and hopefully we may
actually get to debate something of actual substance.

Regards
AC

12
Post by: poynt99 on 2012-01-06, 03:15:58

Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2012-01-05, 18:24:01
Also -- .99, haven't heard from you lately and hope you are doing well.

Regarding the OUR prize -- can you extend the requirement so that a heat-
producing device such as the sonic boiler could be ALLOWED in the
criteria for OU success?

I am well Professor, thanks. :)

If you wish, you may write something up or edit the existing terms
and conditions to suit your request. Send it to me via PM, and we'll
go from there. Thanks for helping out.

.99

12

AC:
Quote
Or maybe a person could have just said "###### misused the term "Bloch
wall" as most people often do", I don't think we have to imply someone is
unbelievable, incompetent or has no credibility simply because they used a
term out of context. I wonder how many actually knew the exact meaning of
the term before they googled it?.

He did not use that term out of context. It was part of ######
"teaching" his viewers about "vacuum energy." First he locates his
non-existent Bloch walls on his blackboard drawing of a regular bar
magnet, and then draws spirals on each side of the Bloch walls
that are supposed to represent "vacuum energy" spiraling into the
Bloch wall. So the non-existent Bloch walls are supposed to be the
entry point for the non-existent vacuum energy. He then shows
how exactly the same process applies to coils.

So here ###### is preaching free energy coming from magnets
and coils in a teaching context. And of course we all know that
###### will also categorically state that he does not make any
free energy claims.
Quote
Do you think Hyperphysics can tell me what a magnetic field is fundamentally--
not what it does what it is?, Maybe you could help you see I can't seem to find
a credible answer to this apparently simple question anywhere?.

Good God, AC, you can always play that card.
Quote
I think the forums are going downhill in a big way, you know the highlight of
last year was not anything of substance it was when I got you to snap and tell
me what you really thought including a few words I won't mention, lol.

Yes, you got pwned, you initiated it, so you get to shoot your load.

MileHigh

12

@Milehigh
Quote
Good God, AC, you can always play that card
In my favorite card game, smear, we call it a boss card(s) because
you can always lay down your hand and walk away a winner. I
usually play the "magnetic" card when I have run out of smart ass
remarks or have no credible answers to the questions at hand. It's
also fun at parties when some know it all tries to challenge my
know it all-ness.

Regards
AC

12
Post by: Chet K on 2012-01-06, 20:55:19

To Whom it may concern,
It looks like we'll be going to a "Bench"[moderated] venue for the
Boiler Calorimetry Run !
Trying to get that set up with a few other members on the Bench
also!

THX
Chet

12

Quote from: poynt99 on 2012-01-06, 03:15:58
I am well Professor, thanks. :)

If you wish, you may write something up or edit the existing terms and
conditions to suit your request. Send it to me via PM, and we'll go from there.
Thanks for helping out.

.99

OK -- I will write something up and submit to you the proposed
(minor I think) changes. Thanks!

12

OK, I have some first results from my sonic boiler (call it SBSJ1)
set up, as shown in photo attached.

I will show my method for determining Pinput and Poutput and
the results, and invite comments on both.

I have a CEN-TECH P3 "Kill-a-watt" meter that displays KW-H to
0.01 accuracy. I ran this P3 meter with a load until it just turned
on the display to 0.05 KWH. Next I ran my SBSJ1 device until it
reached boiling (which stirs the water), stopped registering the
time elapsed with a stop-watch, 62 seconds. I quickly measured
Temperatures inside the inner bell and between the inner and
outer bells using an infrared temp probe and took an average
Temp.

I let the sbsj1 cool (to 98F) and ran a second time with the same
measurements, and this time the P3 turned to 0.06 KWH, so I
stopped the run there to take measurements, 31s. The total
elapsed time was 62+31 = 93 s.

By using the P3 JUST AS the reading turns to a higher value,
increasing by 0.01KWH, I believe the accuracy is quite good,
probably within 10% with this method.

Consider a 100W bulb for 1 hour = 0.1 KWH. Thus, 0.01 KWH in
1/10th hour = 6 minutes = 360 s.
Here in my experiment we have 0.01 KWH in 93 seconds, so the
power is more than 100W, and I calculate:
Pin = 360s/93s X 100W = 387W.

Next, to calculate the output power, first I calculate the heat-
energy Q calorimetrically, using the Temp-rise in the water.
Q = Cg X m X (Tfinal - Tinitial).

For the first run of 62 s, Tfinal - Tinitial = 147Fahr - 83F = 64F =
36Celsius temp rise.
For the second run of 31 s, Tfinal - Tinitial = 145F - 98F = 47F =
26Celsius temp rise.

Here, Q = 4.18 [J/g-C] X 125g X 36C = 18810 J for the first run,
and
Q = 4.18 [J/g-C] X 125g X 26C = 14120 J for the second run.
Total heat measured, Qtotal = 32930 J in 93 s, so
Pout = Q/total-time = 32930J/93s = 354W.

Which is less than Pinput.

Finally, I calculate the efficiency n = Pout/Pin = 354W/387W =
0.91

Any comments on the method or the results?

NOTE: Typo corrected -- cooled to 98 deg F after the first run, not
93F. Thanks.

12
Post by: ION on 2012-01-07, 17:51:31

Nice job, professor.

Looks like the "Kill A Watt" resolution error problem won't go away
unless a larger volume of liquid and much longer soak time is
used.

What type of infra-red thermo measurement device are you using?
Emissivity issues could affect measurement accuracy, but if all you
want is repeatability, it may suffice provided it is in a fixture at a
controlled distance from the source.

I would prefer a temperature probe or mercury lab thermometer
immersed in the liquid.

Continuous gentle stirring of the liquid using a small motorized
paddle would also be helpful.

Could you provide a sketch of the dimensions of the vessel and the
cylinders?

Thank you.

12

Professor,

glad to see you testing, so the "peanut gallery" can have
something to critique! :D

I'm a little confused about your method. You said that you ran
the P3 with a load up to 0.05 kWh, then connected to the water
bath and ran it until water boiled and recorded 62 seconds. Is
that the total time? Is the load that you used initially to bring it to
0.05 kWh the water bath itself or another load? I'm confused.
Maybe you bring it up to 0.05 then go one up to 0.06 kWh?

My suggestion is to calculate Joules, and forget about working with
power.

The Joules you put in the water is a very straight forward
calculation and does not require you to use a stopwatch, the
instrument already did that for you.

Qin = (kWh from P3 instrument) x (3.6e6 J/kWh) = (0.01
kWh)x(3.6e6 J/kWh) = 36 kJ

COP = Qout/Qin = 32.9 kJ / 36 kJ = 0.914 or 91.4%
efficiency. (I used your number of Qout)

see, no time involved in this calculation, and it's much simpler and
less confusing. :)

(2nd suggestion. Don't use an infrared thermometer, but one
that can be immersed in water and do stir the water like Ion
suggested, for more accurate results we know that a seriously
insulated calorimeter is the way to go, but I'm sure you know that,
and this is just a rough experiment.)

Error:
Quote
For the second run of 31 s, Tfinal - Tinitial = 145F - 98F = 47F = 26Celsius
temp rise.

You said you let it cool to 93 deg, why are you using 98 deg?

EM

12

@PhysicsProf
Quote
Any comments on the method or the results?
I would just like to note that an efficiency of 0.91 relates directly
to the accuracy of the measurements because it is impossible that
this system can be less than 100% efficient if energy is conserved.
Therefore we can know that we have 100% accuracy in our
measurements when the efficiency reaches 100%, 100% is the
baseline.
Regards
AC

12
Post by: Chet K on 2012-01-07, 18:48:26

The Design?

Steve One thing I would like to add ....you are not testing the
device that is described in this thread !

Or attempting to "tune" in any way?

Is this correct?
Thx
Chet

12

Good point Chet, I think all experiments of this nature should also
record the underwater sound, and any possible resonant
frequencies determined.

12

Excellent points, all. Chet -- no attempt to "tune" this as yet, just
a basic baseline run.
Mostly testing the methods.

AC-- agreed the n should be close to 100%; there are some losses
due to steam, conduction to the air and pyrex-glass safety
container etc.

ION -- agreed, stirring and a better temp probe. Outer bell (a
nickel crucible) is 65 mm at the topOD and 70 mm tall; inner bell
is about 39 mm tall and 39 mm OD at the top.

Professor,

glad to see you testing, so the "peanut gallery" can have something to critique!
:D

I'm a little confused about your method. You said that you ran the P3 with a
load up to 0.05 kWh, then connected to the water bath and ran it until water
boiled and recorded 62 seconds. Is the load that you used initially to bring it
to 0.05 kWh the water bath itself? Another load? I'm confused. Maybe you
bring it up to 0.05 then go one up to 0.06 only with the water bath?

The load was the device itself; then I let it cool before the tests. In the
future, I may use a light bulb to bring P3 to a starting value.

My suggestion is to calculate Joules, and forget about working with power.

The Joules you put in the water is a very straight forward calculation and does
not require you to use a stopwatch, the instrument already did that for you.

Qin = (kWh from P3 instrument) x (3.6e6 J/kWh) = (0.01
kWh)x(3.6e6 J/kWh) = 36 kJ

COP = Qout/Qin = 32.9 kJ / 36 kJ = 0.914 or 91.4% efficiency. (I
used your number of Qout)

see, no time involved in this calculation, and it's much simpler and less
confusing. :)

Good suggestion -- although power of about 400 W is useful also IMO.
I like using Joules.

(2nd suggestion. Don't use an infrared thermometer, but one that can be
immersed in water and do stir the water like Ion suggested, for more accurate
results we know that a seriously insulated calorimeter is the way to go, but I'm
sure you know that, and this is just a rough experiment.)

Right -- agreed.

Error:
You said you let it cool to 93 deg, why are you using 98 deg?

EM

Typo -- cooled to 98 deg F. Thanks.

12

Congratulations PhysicsProf you are definitely advancing the state
of the art with respect to this project.

I have a few suggestions.

1. I am not 100% sure, but perhaps wrapping the outside walls of
your beaker in tinfoil would reduce the heat loss due to infrared
radiation by reflecting some of the radiation back into the
container. I am really not sure in the sense that the tinfoil itself
will be at the same temperature of the beaker walls and I assume
it will radiate heat also. Of course we know that a thermos uses
this principle but I may be missing something. It has to do with
the infrared emission rate of glass vs. foil vs. temperature and
stuff like that.

A simple test would be to just let the beaker full of hot water sit on
your bench on top of a piece of Styrofoam and monitor the water
temperature loss vs. time. Then do the same thing with the
beaker wrapped in tinfoil and see if there is a significant difference.

2. Since the Kill-a-Watt meter is integrating energy over time
there is nothing stopping you from doing 10 or more consecutive
test runs with the same setup and comparing the total electrical
energy to the total heat energy. Just don't reset the Kill-a-Watt
meter between runs. That is a "Plan B" way of working around the
granularity issue, as compared to using a very large container of
water. A very large container of water by definition would still be
a superior way to go though because it's ratio of volume to surface
area will always be much better than the small beaker.

3. If you were a real keener, you could measure the thermal
capacity of the beaker itself and factor that into your
measurements.

You are correct that you want to do light stirring of the water. You
can't forget that the stirring itself will heat up the water, although
not by very much. It's still a good practice to try to keep the
stirring to a minimum.

Chet:

The "tuning" is just pie-in-the-sky wishful thinking or a con being
pitched to you by the Serbian dude, take your pick. As more data
comes in this will become readily apparent to you. The poor
enthusiasts on EF still haven't commented on PhysicsProf's results.

MileHigh

12
Post by: Chet K on 2012-01-07, 19:24:31

MH
Quote:
The "tuning" is just pie-in-the-sky wishful thinking or a con being
pitched to you by the Serbian dude, take your pick. As more data
comes in this will become readily apparent to you. The poor
enthusiasts on OU still haven't commented on PhysicsProf's
results.
-----------------------------------------------------
MH
I want so bad to retort...........
All I will say is...... this type of talk should be refrained from in this
venue!
Please respect the efforts and time being spent by others to
properly vet this device!
With all respect
Chet

12

I have a new revision to my first suggestion.

Let's assume for the sake of argument that you have measured
the heat capacity of the beaker itself so you can factor that into
your calculations. Alternatively, you don't even have to measure
it. You know the mass of the beaker and if you know the exact
type of glass it is made with then you can look up the specific heat
for that glass material.

Let's also assume for the sake of argument that you get a decent
improvement with the tinfoil wrapped around the beaker.

So the final coup de gras would be to wrap two thin layers of
insulating foam around the tinfoil. I am sure that you have seen
the thin pink stuff that is used as packing material. Even two
layers of small-bubble bubble wrap would do the trick.

10+ runs with a beaker wrapped in tinfoil and two thin layers of
insulating material would be awesome.

Chet:

I will refrain from talking about the tuning for now but I can
suggest some quid pro quo. When the results come in showing no
magic COP then you talk about that, deal with the issue and don't
bury your head in the sand.

MileHigh

12

I can agree with MH on insulating the test container. Ions stir
statement triggered that for me. Losing heat through container
conduction over time can spoil the accuracy of the tests.

I dont know if the have wide mouth thermos bottles. Aluminum foil
might allow heat to disperse quicker.

Automotive parts stores have fiberglass wrap for containing heat
from exhaust headers and fire wall heat shielding. Some also have
an aluminum coating to help reflect heat. But aluminum foils,
unless fine polished like the surface of a thermos bottle, are not a
great reflector. You can look it up where foil is compared to mylar.

If significant heat is created, the water will somewhat stir or cycle
itself, so a bit of added stir wont hurt. Especially to quicken the
temperature rise of the volume of water as a whole, for accurate
measurement purposes.

Im also in agreement with using temperature probes or lab grade
merc thermometers. I wonder if when using the infrared temp
meter if water and glass refraction can affect the measurement.

Mags

12

I personally would not worry too much about losses, you will
always have them, the important thing is to understand the
efficiency losses at different room temperatures for a know
resistive load, then when it comes to test a possible OU candidate
(DUT) then you should be getting higher results if OU, i would
standardize all tests to a set time period.

So if you know a resistive load is 96% efficient at 25 Degrees C
during a 1 minuet test and then a DUT is 94% or 98% then further
test to home in can be done, you see you could spend the rest of
your life improving the flask to get as close to 100% efficient and
it's not important.

That's just my thinking chaps, i have not done anything like this
:)

12
Post by: Chet K on 2012-01-07, 22:18:00

WITTS Drawing moved to here

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=1234.msg196
51;topicseen#msg19651

12

The thread is "heating up" har har...

This one goes out to Slovenia, noting that he is also a member
here. Quoting you:
Quote
Can Tuning
Can needs to be tuned to 50 Hz for EU and 60 Hz for USA. When properly fitted
with the right ring and gap, the can will play at a higher level. If I recall right,
300 Hz for EU and 400 Hz for USA. That's from memory. If it is tuned properly
to Mr. "C"s specs, it will operate at a COP of 10 for EU and COP of 12 for USA.

You can't get away with just saying something is true and expect
people to believe you. You have to show test results and have at
least three separate people reproduce the tests with multiple test
runs that show their data is confirming what you are alleging. The
presentation of the data has to be honest and credible with all of
the details shown and not minimalist and cryptic.
Quote
OU
We have people on this forum who are getting OU with these principles. I won't
mention any names, but they are getting it. The key is to tune the tube to the
appropriate frequency either by sanding or electronic means. If you get it
tuned to the right frequency and then you get your ring the right gap, then you
will enjoy OU. The dimensions of the ring are important too as well as the
diameter and thickness of the tube metal.

You have to mention names, even if they are just anonymous
Internet forum handles. At least that's a start. I can say, "I know
somebody that puts pink elephants in the sky every second
Tuesday over the center of Greenland," and my statement is just
as valid as yours.

So far Slovenia, the only two credible test results are Cherryman's
bathtub test and PhysicProf's test done today. Both tests show no
over unity. You might say, "But the tests were done without
tuning so they don't count." My response to you is bring it on.
Let's see somebody present credible results with the "tuning"
done and let's see what the results look like.

This has been going on for more than four months. For four
months you have been talking about getting over unity and saying
that it is possible and nobody has shown over unity at all.

Welcome to the real world, I don't think many will dispute my
description of the current state of affairs. When nobody can
demonstrate over unity, I challenge you to acknowledge this issue
and discuss it, just like I am challenging Chet to do the same
thing.

Chet has an action plan to follow-up with a person that he is
working with that is claiming COP 7. That person is supposed to
present credible data without actually showing what the device
itself looks like. If that actually happens we will see how it works
out. Your claims of anonymous people getting over unity should
follow the same process, a credible presentation of the data
without necessarily having to see the device itself. Of course it
would be preferable if they showed the device.

I just don't buy into the claim that "shadowy anonymous
replicators that are members of the Energetic Forum have
successfully replicated the device with COP 10 or COP 12." Why
do they have to hide? It's not credible and these forums are
supposed to be places where people openly share setups and
procedures and test data. Why is it when some of them allegedly
have good results that they have to hide in the shadows? How
come you allegedly know them and can drop big hints that the
system works but you can't mention their names? Like I said,
welcome to the real world. People on these forums are sick to
death and tired beyond belief of hearing that "somebody has it
working but they have to remain anonymous and they are not
going to share information about their setup, test procedures, or
test data." People are sick of this and you are part of the problem
when you make statements like this.

Finally Slovenia, I challenge you to comment on the results
whether they be good or bad. You have not commented on the
two credible results so far that show no over unity. If you yourself
want to be credible, then you have to comment on all of the test
data, good and bad.

MileHigh

12
Post by: Chet K on 2012-01-08, 04:49:49

MH
You have to chill !
You asked for a test ...........its coming!!
stop throwing stones around !

THX
Chet
PS
Sonic Boiler Data Posted at this Forum
50 liter of water rise 30 deg celsius in one h, = 1500 X 4,18 =
6270 kJ
6270 / 3600 = 1,74 kWh

Input energy 360W = 360 Wh = 0.360 kwH

COP = 1,74 / 0,360 = 4,83

True COP = 4,83 X 1,2 = 5,8 (I have about 20% loss from test
tank)


Kind rgds D

Another

I have done many temperature tests and doing it almost everyday!
I will post the requested data later today.. 60l temp rise in 5 min
with 1kW input.

That will be the same as 83Wh, with""" resistance heater""" and no
loss the water should rise 0,87 K, in real it will rise only 0,7x0,87
= 0,6 K

We will see what I can do with my sonic setup

Kind rgds D

Results!
I promised to post results for """sonic boiler:""""

5 min 1kW, temp rise in 60l water: total input from grid = 83 Wh,
temp rise = 4,2 K. Result with resistance heater 0,6 K. COP =
4,2/0,6 = 7

Kind rgds D

------------------------------
Summary



-----------------------------------------------------------------
There MH
Here are some test results from MONTHS ago!!

The movie is coming
sit down and shut up or I'll have the usher throw you out!!
Chet

12

Chet:

That stuff that you scrounged from the EF thread is not credible.
Some of that is from Daemonbart and it's no good. Each one of
those instances of reported data was tragically flawed and it's time
to get real. Like I said, Cherryman and PhysicsProf are the only
people that have presented credible data so far.

It's time to stop the fantasy games Chet where people say almost
anything and you agree with them no questions asked. You are a
grown man. We need credible testing and data and I look forward
to seeing improvements on this front. Anything reported that
resembles the vague and incomplete and cryptic results that
Daemonbart has reported will be dismissed out of hand, or, a
follow-up listing of questions can be generated for the person to
respond to in order to make their data credible.

It's just a question of presenting reasonable scientific data, no
more or less than that. Look at PhysicsProf as an example. He
showed a picture of his setup, described his procedure, and
presented his data in a credible fashion. Don't tell me that other
contributors to the thread can't do that.

MileHigh

12
Post by: Chet K on 2012-01-08, 05:29:40

You drew a line in the sand....
A fresh start!
See its right over there [Chet points to post 348]

A new Day... a new way !!
You set the criteria We said "Good Start"!!
Stop running over to the other side of the line!!
Thats cheating!!

Technical Foul!!
Play Nice ,You made the rules don't break them or everybody else
will think they can too!
BTW
All of the above examples were from D
And since my crystal ball is in the shop And he never "Movied" his
tests ,I can Only ASS U ME how he actually performed them!
But thats gonna change!

THX
Chet

12

This is a comment on the Witts water heater thread that was just
started but is locked.

What was posted there is inaccurate. Watching the video should
convince that what I'm saying is more accurate. This is a frame
grab from the video. There is a resonator on the side of the
sphere that he talks about. He also talks about the probe at the
top, and mentions the principles of acoustic resonance inside the
sphere, principles he learned from the work of Keely.

EM

12

Separated at birth? ;D

12
Post by: Chet K on 2012-01-08, 15:02:23

@EM
I moved it and then I locked it because once I started reading the
explanation from the professor!![on Witts]
I realized that certain people here would absolutely be incapable of
restraint [and it would almost be Cruel on my part to expect such].

That being said I see it was still to irresistible for said person "Not
to cross the line"!
!!!!

OK
Little more movie info!!
Looks like it will be a matinee for us in the east
The plot includes An Oldy but Goody... "old style " inductance
meter that runs 24 laps per KWH [remember the old round disc
meters]
Several other Old style meters are in the mix too

along with a potpourri of new style stuff

I'm working Now
I have much more to say about the Movie [good news]
Later
Chet
PS
We are going to have a refresher on theater edicate ..................

12
Post by: Chet K on 2012-01-08, 17:09:12

OK
Some history
The movie you are going to see sometime today is being presented
By a man who knows what it takes to heat water!! He has been
Designing and tweaking heat pump systems
most of his Life ,A consummate professional with the Work Ethic
and standards [scrutiny] necessary to make real time real world
advances in his field!!
Heretofore these advances came at Flea gas levels ...thus the
equipment and techniques required to "SEE" results worth
pursuing ,had to be very sensitive and quite familiar to the user.

You are in his playground Now !!! Decades of experience doing this
kind of thing!!

This could not have been scripted any better by Spielberg!

I must also say the level of scrutiny here has absolutely got to be
professional and honest,No Tomfoolery and such can be tolerated!

How it works can be argued in another venue ...All I'm asking is
some professional courtesy !!

More comments to follow I'm sure
Chet
PS
I would also like to add ....There is absolutely no way this man is
playing games with this.
what he sees is real ...whether it can be attributed to some other
explainable condition [reactive power etc etc]
remains to be seen?
I personally as you know have no knowledge of how this could be?
Thats why some of you are here!
PPS
I have to add this Reactive power statement of mine ....Is in all
probability ignorance on my part!!
This gentlemen made an observation on Professor Savics Tea
kettle heater that explained his familiarity with these types of
open water inductive heaters.
While he felt they could show some interesting things ,,,They could
not do what todays Heat pump tech can do!

I am not referring to the "sonic Boiler" but the little round one
that Branislov is holding in the pic.

12

Chet -- thanks for the phone call.

.99 / Peter -- I would be happy to set up a thread on my bench for
this movie that Chet mentions and the discussion to follow, as also
suggested by Chet. Does this work for you, or is there a better
venue?

12
Post by: poynt99 on 2012-01-08, 18:57:28

Your bench is fine if it's ok with you.

12

Your bench is fine if it's ok with you.

Fine with me (and Chet) -- so I'll set that up. I don't think this
anomalous effect is due to neutrinos (!) so I won't call it a
"neutrino-based water heater" LOL. I understand we are looking
at results and various tests on a "black box" water heater, first to
ascertain whether there is an OU effect here. Experiments before
theory -- which is a great approach IMO, in this case.

So I propose to title the thread "Black-box Water Heater
Experiments" or simply "Sonic Boiler Experiments". Open for
suggestions. Will set up in about 1/2 hour.

12
Post by: Chet K on 2012-01-08, 20:41:45

Steve
Very Nice!!
THX
Chet

12
Post by: Chet K on 2012-01-08, 22:46:48

well
I am having a hard time getting thru ATM
I will not call after 5pm my time [15 min from now]
It gets to late.
I imagine its quite daunting to make your first Movie,with so many
details to cover!
And wanting everything just right!!

Keep you posted
Chet

12

Chet:

You are the one that needs to take a chill pill. You don't see a
resemblance between the Witts "water heater" and the Nomad
probe? It was just a joke, it's wasn't "crossing the line." About
the Witts device, I told you that the hot water was already in the
metal sphere at the start of the clip but you did not respond. Why
didn't you respond? The clip is a fake. With you it's sometimes
like taking candy from a baby. Even on the main free energy
forums, the Witts boys are almost universally panned as scam
artists. Surely you are aware of that?

I stated that it was time to get serious and we need credible
evidence and you turn around and copy all of the non-credible
reports of COP > 1 from the EF thread and then post them as
"proof." What the hell? And yes, we are at a point where if
somebody posts cryptic and incomplete data it should not be
accepted.

Do you remember the user "Bolt" from the Romero threads? For
months and months and months every day Bolt posted about the
"VARS" and "VSWR" and how the Romero version of the Muller
motor/generator was guaranteed to work, all that you had to do
was set up your LC resonance and it would self-run and export
power. Months and months went by with no progress whatsoever.
Finally some people forced Bolt's hand and asked him for
evidence. Bolt pointed to RomeroUK as the "proof" that what he
was saying was true. But Romero is not credible, and Wattsup
found the cheating wires in his clips. Bolt disappeared and hasn't
been heard from since. Slovenia is sounding a lot like that, a shill,
another Bolt. When he says that there are people on EF that have
the sonic boiler working but he can't mention any names he should
be challenged. That kind of behaviour is detracting from the
"cause," and not advancing it.

You are stating that the COP 7 guy is going to make a video clip?
That's fine but I said that he needed to present credible
experimental data, not a movie clip, and you agreed. What about
the credible presentation of data? Will that be forthcoming?

MileHigh

12

Slovenia:

On EF the new user "osamaricu_te" claims that he did lots and lots
of testing and got no positive results.

Here is your reply:
Quote
This device when tuned properly according to provided specifications will give
you a high COP!! If you were not able to get a COP>1 please don't share your
results on this thread and make statements inferring that our device is a waste
of time and/or crap. That is pure nonsense and not appreciated.

That is pure shill talk from you and it's unacceptable. You have to
deal with the results of testing, both good and bad. You are not
Big Brother and you can expect that all of the credible testing
results that are reported will not show any magical COP numbers.
Sorry, but that's the way the real world works. Tests will be done
an the results will be discussed without any censorship from you.

MileHigh

12
Post by: Chet K on 2012-01-09, 02:54:15

Ruff Day.....
I was away from my shop phone the last half of the day .......{i
have an overseas Calling Acc't on that phone]

Any hoo
I'll be calling in the AM ..
@
Chet gives a long Sigh.. after a very tense day!!

MH
You are much more than a worthy adversary .....I am defenseless
against your Life skills in these matters !
The line in the sand {fresh start] made me feel safe!!
B L {before line] A L {after Line}
Now You are going outside the forum to places that have very little
to do with this Movie and grabbing comments that have nothing to
do with A L life at O U R .

We agreed on a deal ....Your deal
Are you ....Have you.... Changed the deal without telling me??

This is very important to me and many others here and elsewhere,
we agreed to how this would be done
Looking in the rear view mirror isn't allowed .
And I don't want to hear what Obomba din wassi or whomever
has to say about the price of tea in Guam!

Please give your answer
Do we have a deal [your deal]
Yes or no!!
With all respect
Chet
PS
Or You could swear an oath of silence {A Bin wassi spiritual thing ]

12

Chet:

Okay, we have a deal, read below for some clarification. We will
let some issues go unanswered because they are not so important.

I'll keep quiet and wait for the COP 7 video clip. However, the deal
is for the presentation of the data. I asked you if we will be
getting the data and you haven't answered. Will we be getting the
presentation of the data?

The deal was that we will examine the COP 7 claim with an open
mind and with a clean slate. That's all it was. You are trying to
expand the parameters of the deal to the entire discussion and
that was never stated. Don't try to put words in my mouth. But,
you know what, I will agree to that.

However, this implicit "expanded" deal that was never discussed
should be a two-way street. On your side I am asking you to
refrain from presenting incomplete or incoherent or nonsensical
data as "proof" of COP like you did the other day. Fair enough?
You yourself are able to recognize when someone is presenting
credible data so for the sake of the thread, don't pollute it with
junk.

In a way Chet I am your "Cod Liver Oil" best friend. If I didn't
push then the threads on both sides of the border would remain
floundering and incoherent and not credible and going nowhere
fast. I think that you have learned that there are limits to how
much pie-in-the-sky material can be presented before some people
say "enough."

What I can also tell you is that I can easily visualize in my mind
exactly what happens when you pump mains power through the
device. I mean literally exactly what happens, including if the
metal electrodes start to resonate. I can easily do the experiment
in my head and unfortunately nothing special happens.

So do I have the "Vision Thing" down in my mind and am I
correct? Let's see some credible data presented and find out.

MileHigh

12
Post by: Chet K on 2012-01-09, 03:39:36

Yes
A deal it is
I will most likely NOT be involved in any way on that thread .
I am not even going for any Moderator privileges !
I take you at your word.....And just for Clarity The biggest reason
we are doing this is to show "Numbas"
POUT AND PIN Or PIN and POUT {Rosy gets very picky about that
part for some reason] ?

The other reasons this Venue has been chosen is to see if this type
of Public forum can Vet a device like this in a Civil way.
With most of the members here being long time researchers and
enthusiasts of OU the Member list Spans Many Forums
It is also closed to Invitation only ATM and this will keep nair do
wells and sillyness to a minimum !
Add to that the Moderator status and flexibility that peterae and
Poynt have given This!!

Its very Cool..............

I will make no comment on what you see in your head MH
But I will say Others can see things too ............

I pray tomorrow brings resolve to this issue..

A little repost on whom you are betting against

Some history
The movie you are going to see sometime today is being presented
By a man who knows what it takes to heat water!! He has been
Designing and tweaking heat pump systems
most of his Life ,A consummate professional with the Work Ethic
and standards [scrutiny] necessary to make real time real world
advances in his field!!
Heretofore these advances came at Flea gas levels ...thus the
equipment and techniques required to "SEE" results worth
pursuing ,had to be very sensitive and quite familiar to the user.

I would also like to add ....There is absolutely no way this man is
playing games with this.
what he sees is real ...whether it can be attributed to some other
explainable condition [reactive power etc etc]
remains to be seen?
I personally as you know have no knowledge of how this could be?
Thats why some of you are here!

Also.... this Reactive power statement of mine ....Is in all
probability ignorance on my part!!
This gentlemen made an observation on Professor Savics Tea
kettle heater that explained his familiarity with these types of
open water inductive heaters.
While he felt they could show some interesting things ,,,They could
not do what todays Heat pump tech can do!

I am not referring to the "sonic Boiler" but the little round one
that Branislov is holding in the pic.

12
Post by: Chet K on 2012-01-09, 11:50:25

OK
The Movie should be finished today,

We want to address reactive power as it may apply to this device .
Is there a way to measure reactive power in our homes?

Our friend feels it could not be doing this due to the fact its doing
2kwh work on an ice cold 3Amp auto type fuse!

Comments please?

Thank you
Chet
PS
Also being discussed here
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/10294-help-
please-understanding-reactive-power.html#post174931

12

Chet:

The Google search on "reactive power" brings you to a
comprehensive Wikipedia entry "AC Power." Reactive power is not
"another form of power," it's just regular power from the power
plant where the voltage and current go out of phase because of
the nature of the electrical load. There is no "other source of
reactive power" that is some kind of supplement to the power
provided by the power company, they are essentially the same
thing. I mention that because I have seen many postings that
make those kind of speculations.

Reactive power has absolutely nothing to do with this experiment.
The setup is a resistive load and all of the power going into the
load is real power, i.e.; the power factor is one.
Quote
Is there a way to measure reactive power in our homes?

Older-generation electrical meters did not measure power factor,
and hence could not measure the reactive power associated with
an individual home. I am going to guess that modern home
electrical meters can measure the power factor, and by extension
the reactive power. All that you have to do is measure the phase
relationship between the voltage and the current to measure the
reactive power.
Quote
Our friend feels it could not be doing this due to the fact its doing 2kwh work
on an ice cold 3Amp auto type fuse!

That's a very cryptic statement and I just deleted my text and
decided to not interpret for you because I could be wrong. Try
turning that statement into a few sentences where you clearly get
your point across and there is no ambiguity and then I will try to
respond. Who is your friend, is it the person with the claim of COP
7?

MileHigh

12
Post by: Chet K on 2012-01-09, 14:46:12

MH
Its in regard to the meter ??
Can this be tricking the meter??
Gotta go I'm Working
Chet

12
Post by: Chet K on 2012-01-09, 16:29:13

MH
Yes The phase ...........There was a lot of talk from the other end
of the phone this AM about Phase.
Chet doesn't speak "Phase" ,but he also doesn't interrupt!

WE have a member "Duncan" [An EE] who was mentioning
something about Phase during our thread over at Energetic.
Just trying not to leave any stones un turned during the 'whats
causing this" Phase.

The Movie is still in production .

Chet

12

No need to rush, Chet.

With regard to tests/checks, I would recommend running from a
battery (no mains power at all) through an inverter. Measure the
power coming from the battery (DC).

OR -- better in some ways -- use a large capacitor and measure
the Energy supplied by the cap using

E = 1/2 C( Vinitial**2 - Vfinal**2).

Here, one could use an inverter or pulsed-DC to drive the DUT.

12
Post by: Chet K on 2012-01-09, 18:09:24

Steve
Yes batteries are being used to run some of the units thru an
inverter.

Batteries make some people very itchy! I think this will be
mentioned in the movie also!

The reason for the "cryptic" 2KWH load on a 3amp fuse.. was just
to indicate how truly weird this system is ! [ a passing observation
amongst all the "phase talk"this AM]
It was something even I could get my Brain around!

"2 KWH load on a 3 amp fuse"...... Its not possible but its what is
happening .

Thanks for the ideas Steve ,and for all the other things you are
doing,they are greatly appreciated!

Chet

12

Chet -- good points, thanks.
Quote
2 KWH load on a 3 amp fuse"...... Its not possible but its what is happening .
I think you meant, "2 KW" not "2KWH" load. And very interesting
indeed -- the fuse provides a nice test.

With regard to the OUR prize discussed earlier, I find this in the
Conditions for the prize:

The device must be able to produce a continuous output
power of 15W (minimum) over and above the total amount
of power applied to the device as an input source of power.

This does NOT specify that electrical power is needed for the
output, so I take it that heat output (Q, as measured using the
temperature rise in water, for example) would meet the condition.
Is this correct, .99?

I realize that all other conditions for the prize, including the open
source provision, would apply.

12
Post by: poynt99 on 2012-01-09, 20:23:08

Professor,

Electrical power (Watts) can be converted to energy (Joules=W*s),
therefore since heat (temperature rise) can be converted to Joules,
I think we are ok.

Feel free to change the required wording or incorporate the
necessary equations for the conversions, and we'll go from there.

Regards,
.99

12
Post by: Chet K on 2012-01-09, 20:41:10

OK
I have to call at 4.00 PM EST USA [approx 1 1/2 hrs ]
I think we'll be ready?

THX
Chet

12
Post by: Chet K on 2012-01-09, 23:04:03

Looks like its not ready yet............
I'll be trying again 5 AM EST

Chet

12

Professor,

Electrical power (Watts) can be converted to energy (Joules=W*s), therefore
since heat (temperature rise) can be converted to Joules, I think we are ok.

Feel free to change the required wording or incorporate the necessary
equations for the conversions, and we'll go from there.

Regards,
.99

we should keep in mind that some of the heat parameters, like
specific heat, might change with pressure, and actualy do if I
remember correctly, so lot's of care should be excercised in
defining the energy that went into heating up a liquid. It's not as
straight forward as computing electrical power. I suspect that
some of these sonic water heaters might work just because of this
fact. In the case of the Witts spherical heater, I suspect the
current pulse is timed to occur when a low pressure wave is
impinging on the heating area or probe, and so it takes less heat
energy to boil, but is that 100 deg C boiling? or 90 deg C boiling?
Once I even saw boiling water FREEZ, in an experiment back in
highschool that reduced the pressure around a vessel full of water
at room temperature, and as the pressure droped the boiling
started and cooled the liquid and at one point it just froze solid,
bubles and all! It was very impressive!

EM

12
Post by: Chet K on 2012-01-10, 00:01:51

OK
I found Duncans post
It was his mentioning of reactive power that was Different

Duncan
Quote:

OK even with a pair of spoons and very careful adjustment I can
get amazing results, But what are we tuning to?
I have an Idea sort of roughed out which I'd like to float It starts
with considering a radio system.
Or even a TV system I'm sure most of your have played about with
CB radio for instance. At first it would seem to have nothing to do
with the electric grid but of course all the same bits are in place a/
the Transmitter (which is analogous of the generator) b/The cable
feeding the antenna (which is analogous of the grid itself c/The
antenna Itself which is analogous of our equipment receiving the
power (heater,motor whatever) and lastly the antenna launches
the signal into the Aether this is analogous to how you perceive
the energy heat,movement,light whatever.
If you have ever connected a TV or one of these CB things you will
find that Coaxial cable is the stuff to use, you will also find that it
has a Characteristic Impedance typically 75 ohm and some times
50 ohm but I guess by design it can be anything. Our electric grid
also has a Characteristic impedance and so I think a little
thought on the matter is in order.
This coax and 75 ohms where would you measure it with your
meter? The answer is if course you cant.
The Transmitter is by design is manufactured to transfer 100% of
its power at a certain frequency into an Impedance of 75 ohms.
The coax in turn delivers the power to the Antenna which again by
design has a Impedance designed to be 75 ohm and it in turn is
physically made to launch your power onto the Aether. It is a little
bit like pass the parcel but each of the four people involved has to
be suited to handle the load and pass it to the next guy.
and so what happens if the transmitter changes frequency ? Well
each transmitter has one of these
http://www.mds975.co.uk/Images/radios/atu09.jpg
It can be adjusted to fool the transmitter into seeing 75 ohms
and so give you the adjustment required to put everything bang
on tune
If things are not On tune some most unpleasant things occur,if
they are for instance 100% out of tune all the power from the
transmitter is reflected straight back like throwing a ball against a
wall and normally blows up the transmitter.
If you get it 75% tuned most of the power goes out onto the
Aether 25% is forced to stay on the coax if fact if memory serves
they refer to it a a standing wave In practice you can actually go
along the coax with a neon or small fluorescent tube and it will
light and dim as you follow this wasted power and you will actually
feel hot spots on the coax..
Radio Amateurs go to inordinate lengths to reduce standing waves
because they cause what they refer to as Spurious emissions
that is they transmit bursts of power that can appear anywhere.
I'm sure at some stage you have heard police or Taxi drivers or CB
operators crashing through onto your phone or TV on a frequency
far away from where they should be . That is because of this evil
twin of the sine wave.
Now it so happens that The grid is exactly the same sort of
system. Vastly different powers and currents and frequencies
involved but essentially the same.
Electrical engineers such as myself are taught exactly the same
subject as radio engineers but in an entirely different fashion, with
different terms and different units and Its extremely difficult to
marry the two. And so we end up with a situation where allied
trades are discussing the same subject but not able to understand
each other.
There is for instance a subtle 90deg phase shift introduced in the
radio transmission teaching of things to sort of pat things into
shape a bit Its not really required in electrical engineering so its
just omitted The maths route is really a bear of a line to go
down BUT Eric Dollard is one of the few that is obviously well
versed in both fields and has noticed the anomalies and been after
them like a terrier after a rat his writing is recommended (gives
me head ache) so I can only take small bites.
It does become very clear that big lumps are missing or altered in
such a way that the cap is forced to fit the head.
So much for a extremely hashed version of a radio transmission
what of our grid? It has a Transmitter a generator in fact lots of
them joined together they will have a maximum power transfer
impedance (just like the CB radio) although Its going to be very
low, Its also going to have lots of this evil twin the standing wave
sitting solidly on the grid except they call it re-active power.
Much like the spurious radio signals it arrives any were with full
power unannounced.
It blows up transformers, It loves eating semi-conductors, Its
probably responsible for spontaneous combustion. It generates
heat on the grid, the supply people have to put in much bigger
cables to cater for reactive power,standing wave, watt-less
component (call it what you will)
And to me It rather looks like some of this worthless expensive
watt-less component is being tuned and used to heat water,.
With total respect to Mr C just to get a little closer P = VI is what
the standard house meter is reading.
Power =VI cos
is what a typical factory meter would be reading in order to
encourage Power factor correction. Power factor correction doesn't
really cure the problem anyway it simply throws it back on the
grid. And ups the Ante
these are all known and accepted BUT and its a big BUT what if
As I am starting to suspect we are tuning to the reactive watt less
component that the power companies hate and turning it into
heat. And so doing them a great kindness. Do you think we could
heat our homes and send them a bill for removing the watt-less
component?
Yeh I'm sure they'd be highly delighted. It would be very
interesting to see one of these heaters that is working really well
disconnected from the grid and connected instead to a battery and
a true sine wave inverter.
A/ It would remove the shock hazard (to a certain extent)
B/ It prove/dis prove the tuning to a specific frequency
C/ It would give direct current volts amps reading
D/If it does what I suspect we can all buy and use the same
inverter

What I suspect it will do . Not having access to the spurious
emissions, reactive power,wattless component call it what you will
(a rose by any other name) It will draw most of the power which it
is tuned to receive
from the Aether In the same fashion as all these machines
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-t...2520floyyd.png

New Free Energy by George Mitchell - YouTube

ThaneCHeins's Channel - YouTube

ThaneCHeins's Channel - YouTube

F.M.CHALKALIS ENERGY MULTIPLIER - YouTube

This absolutely free un patentable god given energy flooding
vertically into these machines and only visible as it mixes with the
ambient light frequencies is what I suspect is heating the water
although we of course can't see the interaction.
It simply remains to confirm in tests I know from calculation that
even with my crude set up I am at least very efficient To make a
tuner such as this http://www.rocketradio.co.uk/ekmps/s...mhz-
1010-p.jpg
is to a Transmitter antenna for our heater and the grid connection
is an ambition, but perhaps an inverter we could all buy regardless
of country and connect to a standard construct is also not a bad
way to go, and the power utilities can be left to sort out their own
life choking, planet strangling, "evil power" which this power of
which we have been deprived for many years is in direct
opposition to in every respect..
I notice when I draw attention to the above links on other relevant
threads they tend to DRY UP for some reason I hope that isnt the
case here!
spurious emissions Light tubes lite up under powerlines without
plugs? EMF Cra - YouTube
__________________
Whatever you can do,or dream you can,begin it.Bold

12

:D C :D h :D e :D t :D, movie and results, looking forward to
that while I am still :D s :D a :D n :D e :D .

12
Post by: Chet K on 2012-01-10, 02:15:52

Feeling a little spunky are yah?
When you see the Movie [I haven't ] You will be saying its gotta be
fake!
No way this is possible ETC ETC...........
And that my Friend is why its here ....You probably will go
loony.... {i hope not]....Or we will find out something else is
causing it ? [at this point I would be very surprised].
Please don't take my posting from Duncan as any "endorsement"
from this Inventor as how he thinks this works, The inventor here
cannot believe what he sees with his own eyes?

I hope we find the same fascination ...

Chet
MH
This is such a good exercise in self control.... You are doing so
good!!
I know the Duncan Post put undue stress on your Grey cells ....I
did not do that intentionally [old habits]
Very impressive
Thank you
I really think the movie will be ready in the AM ...He's covering
many things on the phone ..if he puts that in the movie it will be a
bit of a challenge for him to pull off!![time wise]

12

:D C :D h :D e :D t :D, movie and results, looking forward to that while I am
still :D s :D a :D n :D e :D .

LOL ;D

12

Chet:

I hope the movie is not being made in lieu of documenting the
procedures and showing the measurements and doing the
calculations. That would be unacceptable. I hope you understand
that.

This is now the third time I am asking you this: Will this person
be presenting the setup, the test procedures and the
measurements and showing the COP 7 results in a posting?

MileHigh

12

MH, I wouldn't hold my breath for any solid numbers we can
analyze. We'll probably get some, but not enough to matter. But
the presentation should be good, or rather entertaining, with all
the typical exotic theories to support the apparently overunity
operation. :-[

round and round we go.

:D :D
:D :D
:D :D
:D ;D :D
:D :D
:D :D
:D :D

[edit: it's so hard to get this thing to be a circle: >:(

12
Post by: Chet K on 2012-01-10, 03:29:32

MH
Yes Yes And Yes
There are No "No's"
All Yes's

I believe we will be pleasantly surprised !!
Patience is a virtue I have problems with.........[yeah I know.... I
hide it pretty good]
This is good therapy for me too!

@Em
AS far as Theories?
I don't think so....As far as reproducible results at will ....No
Sweat!!
How its Done no problem!! Why it do what it Do??
Not really important at this juncture .
I hope you will be planning to be a part of this also ,Steve feels
this way Too!
Thx
Chet

12
Post by: Chet K on 2012-01-10, 03:40:24

Sorry can't help myself


quantumuppercut

Let's say we have a ball and drop it from height H, the ball bounce
back to the same height, the system is purely reactive. If the ball
bounce back lower, there is some reactive, and if the ball doesn't
bounce back, it's purely "resistive" in a sense.

The boiler is resistive if we treat the water as a resistive load. If
there is reactive going on, then the system must contain
inductance/capacitance. One can see the boiler as a coil.

It might be induction heating. If so, you're not alone. Induction
heating is from magnetic energy. Now could it be that magnetic
energy is free...

http://pesn.com/2011/10/05/9501927_Steorn_CEO_Posts_Overun
ity_Heater_Video/

"...The purpose of the test is to determine if the coil fed with a
quantity of AC power, can produce more heat than the same coil
fed with the same quantity of DC power. In the paper, the formula
needed to calculate the total AC power is presented. The AC input
and DC input is configured to be as identical as possible. Actually,
the power input during the AC run was .9 (point nine) watts, and
in the DC run it was 1 (one) watt. The fact that the input power
during the AC run was slightly less than in the DC run actually
biases the test against the AC run. This makes the results of the
test even more significant.

In the first test, 1 watt of DC power is fed into the coil wound
around the nickel core. The temperature of the coil increases until
it reaches an equilibrium point of 36.1 degrees. This is the point at
which the power lost by the coil via heat dissipation matches the
electrical input power. Even if the input power stayed on for hours
longer, the temperature of the coil would not increase above this
temperature.

In the second test, .9 watts is fed into the same coil wound around
the same exact nickel core. Obviously, this test took place a period
of time after the first one, after the temperature of the coil has
dropped back to its original value. The result of AC being fed into
the coil is that it rises to an equilibrium temperature of 41.1
degrees. This means that in the AC test, the temperature of the
coil reached a temperature five degrees higher than in the DC test.

The higher equilibrium temperature obtained when the coil was
powered with AC, indicates an anomalous gain of energy. The gain
of energy is unexplainable, because the input power in both tests
were almost identical -- actually slightly less when AC was utilized.
As the paper continues, the author indicates that resistive heating
cannot be the case for the increased temperature in the AC test
run..

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------

12

Quote
The higher equilibrium temperature obtained when the coil was powered with
AC, indicates an anomalous gain of energy.

Objection your honor! ;D The defense wishes to refute these
outlandish claims. :D

On the surface it seems logical, same power input but higher
temperature, but when you "dig" into the details, you discover
other phenomena responsable for the observables. Temperature
rise is governed by heat flux and thermal resistance of materials, if
you don't have lot's of survace to carry the heat away you get a
higher temperature that drives more heat and thus reaches an
equilibrium at a higher temperature level. In a core, AC fields
produce hysterisis losses, so the power is dissipated differently
then with DC excitation. That's one thing to keep in mind. the
other is, measuring the power that goes in is a bit more tricky.
With DC one measures the voltage and current MAGNITUDES
only, but with AC we need MAGNITUDE and PHASE. If these are
not measured acurately then we'll get erroneous results.

For example, look at poor Lawrence Tesung, carring on about
his jewel thief circuit day after day and making the same mistake
in calculating power which we all spoted long ago. How sad.

EM

12

Chet:

Great to hear that the data will be forthcoming also.

EM:

I think that you hit the nail on the head. The AC excitation would
induce eddy currents inside the nickel core, a.k.a. hysteresis
losses. That means you have a heat engine inside the nickel core
itself and not just from hot wires on the surface. That interior heat
engine has a higher thermal resistance to the outside world such
that the overall assembly would have a slightly higher thermal
resistance to the outside world with the AC excitation. Hence the
outside surface of the nickel core would have a slightly higher
thermal equilibrium temperature. It's very subtle but I think that
explains it.

Where the Steorn boys are "losing it" is that the device would
defiantly not have exactly the same temperature for the wires vs.
the nickel core, that's impossible, the wires will be hotter. When
you switch to AC excitation, the wires are just slightly less hot
because the heat engine inside the nickel core is "stealing" power
dissipation from the wires.

Note that although the surface temperatures for the two different
types of excitation would be slightly different, the actual amount of
IR and thermal convection heat power emanating from the device
for the two excitations would check out. In other words, the
amount of actual heat wattage being produced by each type of
electrical excitation would still be commensurate with the electrical
energy being provided to each device. All that you would need to
do would be to run both devices in an insulated water bath for a
certain amount of time and let the water and the device reach the
same temperature. When you did that and crunched the numbers
and double-checked that with the two types of electrical excitation,
everything should check out. That's my story and I'm sticking to
it.

Assuming that we are correct, how come the "Steorn boyz," who
are supposed to be "experts" at all this stuff, did not get this? The
bottom line is that their credibility is zero and has been for a long
time and nobody took any notice of Sean's claim. I think Sean
was booted out of the company a few months ago also.

Where can I get my buttered popcorn? lol

MileHigh

12

A.C. power provides free energy?

Wow! My house must be running on free energy. How do I rewire
my car to only use A.C. ?

The concession stand is behind you and down the hall. Don't pay
the extra buck for the butter. It is only peanut oil anyway.

Eddy currents only when A.C. is used .... perfectly logical :)
Steorn didn't get that? That is sad :'(

12
Post by: Chet K on 2012-01-10, 13:18:29

OK
Life gets in the way sometimes [most times actually] ,Raising a
family and running a business ..... and making movies !
Hard to juggle !
Lots of film in the can ,He says its "A good day to Finish Up"
[filming] So I'm calling back in 10 hrs .

Gotta go back to work here..........

Chet

12
Post by: Chet K on 2012-01-10, 14:24:19

Time mistake not 10 hrs
3 PM EST USA

Professor Savic mailed this to me this AM,I know that none of this
would be happening if it weren't for his original input and
schematics
The inventor of this device knows that also ....although he feels he
may be doing the same thing but in a different way! [much easier
at many levels]
Irregardless ...he wants the professor to benefit also from this !
[however that may be?]

Savic to me

90% of vacuum is composed from neutrinos.
Neutrinos travel faster than light. One particle pushes the other
particle like a sound wave and that is why it is tuned as musical
instrument.
When neutrino strikes the crystal bar of metal, it pushes out the
last electron on orbital.
Electron that was pushed out, gets lost out of this dimension in
quantum field for a moment and when it returns, by collapsing it
collects 7 times more energy compared to what he had.
That energy is captured by resonance at 1/4 of wave length and
that is half diameter of half sphere and of sphere or of sonic boiler
cylinder.
That is pure electricity and it is condensed in sphere, half sphere
or cylinder.
That electricity is passed through a resistor, resistor being water
which in return creates heat.
Molecules of water resonate and vibrate at same wave length and
transmit their energy to a radiator who by resonance transfers it to
the air and then our body soaks that energy through the air and
we feel warmth.

Summary:
Sonic boiler catches high frequency waves (microwaves) from a
system of high frequency with its shape and dimension, then
converts lower frequency into heat through electrical resistance of
water.
Sonic boiler uses network electricity as exciting frequency and
energy of quantum field which is condensed in ball of heater (this
part here "ball of heater" I believe it is sphere of heater, do notice
that is my understanding and word to word translation is ball of
heater) and that is why it has COP >1

Regards,

Prof.Savic

------------------------------------
MH
Please don't comment we know how you feel about this [Spock
Hugging his girlfriend pic]

12
Post by: Chet K on 2012-01-10, 21:29:50

@ ALL
Several Vids in the can!
Posting will be to the "Tube" Comments disabled.

This Gentleman is putting in a lot of time and effort ...I think
there will be a generator run in the mix also?[unit running on a
genset].

I don't particularly care how long he takes .Its a promise and its
coming!

I do expect something in the next few hours ....
Thx
Chet

12

Let's look at some experimental evidence about neutrino hit rates
for water taken from the Sudbury Neutrino Observatory (SNO).

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c4/Sudbury_Neutrino
_Observatory.artist_concept_of_detector.jpg)

Quote from this document:
http://www.sno.phy.queensu.ca/sno/press_release/SNOBackgrou
nderNov15f.pdf
Quote
The SNO detector consists of 1000 tonnes of ultra-pure heavy water
enclosed in a 12-meter diameter
acrylic plastic vessel, which in turn is surrounded by ultra-pure ordinary water
in a giant 22-meter
diameter by 34-meter high cavity. Outside the acrylic vessel is a 17-meter
diameter geodesic sphere
containing 9,456 light sensors or photomultiplier tubes, which detect tiny
flashes of light emitted as
neutrinos are stopped or scattered in the heavy water. The flashes are
recorded and analyzed to extract
information about the neutrinos causing them. At a detection rate on the
order of 10 per day, many days
of operation are required to provide sufficient data for a complete analysis. The
laboratory includes
electronics and computer facilities, a control room, and water purification
systems for both heavy and
regular water.

Let's ignore the difference between heavy water and regular water
in order to simplify the calculation. Let's try to estimate the
neutrino hit frequency for one liter of regular water.

Hit frequency for one liter = 10 hits/day * 1/(1000 * 1000) =
0.00001 hits/day

That's an average of one hit per 100,000 days or an average of
one hit every 273.78 years for a container holding one liter of
water. Since regular water is less of a "target" than heavy water
you assume the average hit rate is even slower than that.

MileHigh

12
Post by: Chet K on 2012-01-11, 02:22:09

Assume Huh?
That word always scares me
Any Hoo
I Haven't watched this movie yet [I will in another hour.. still
working]

I believe this may be the Japanese fellow with similar Neutrino
views ? {not sure]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EB-jWfzkz_E
THX
Chet

12

Chet, so what MH is saying is that nutrino hits are very rare and
far between, so these guys who boil water should look for an
alternate theory to explain their results, because it aint' nutrinos.

EM

12
Post by: Chet K on 2012-01-11, 03:28:13

EM Thanks,
I have to say ...we will be fetching for explanations in a few days!

Maybe Neutrinos Can't swim? [scared of water?]

Have a good night..........
Chet
PS
Just watched that movie
Spherical Capacitors........... Starts at the 2.56 mark !
I wonder if the Witts Heater could be a Spherical capacitor?
"Spherics"??

12

Chet, so what MH is saying is that nutrino hits are very rare and far between,
so these guys who boil water should look for an alternate theory to explain
their results, because it aint' nutrinos.

EM

Exactly -- I said as much over at EF also.

12

Quote
Savic to me

90% of vacuum is composed from neutrinos.
Neutrinos travel faster than light. One particle pushes the other particle like a
sound wave and that is why it is tuned as musical instrument.
When neutrino strikes the crystal bar of metal, it pushes out the last electron
on orbital.
Electron that was pushed out, gets lost out of this dimension in quantum field
for a moment and when it returns, by collapsing it collects 7 times more energy
compared to what he had.
That energy is captured by resonance at 1/4 of wave length and that is half
diameter of half sphere and of sphere or of sonic boiler cylinder.
That is pure electricity and it is condensed in sphere, half sphere or cylinder.
That electricity is passed through a resistor, resistor being water which in
return creates heat.
Molecules of water resonate and vibrate at same wave length and transmit
their energy to a radiator who by resonance transfers it to the air and then our
body soaks that energy through the air and we feel warmth.

Summary:
Sonic boiler catches high frequency waves (microwaves) from a system of high
frequency with its shape and dimension, then converts lower frequency into
heat through electrical resistance of water.
Sonic boiler uses network electricity as exciting frequency and energy of
quantum field which is condensed in ball of heater (this part here "ball of
heater" I believe it is sphere of heater, do notice that is my understanding and
word to word translation is ball of heater) and that is why it has COP >1

Short and to the point: Absolute utter drivel. Just the mindless
ramblings of a half-wit!

Chet, so what MH is saying is that nutrino hits are very rare and far between,
so these guys who boil water should look for an alternate theory to explain
their results, because it aint' nutrinos.

EM

Now here's the thing, Chet. If these guys seriously consider
neutrinos to be responsible for heating up the water, what does
this tell us about them? I know exactly what it tells me... and the
word 'genius' would not be in my description of them!

I mean, how many times does one or the other of us have to
elaborate on why the neutrino theory is absolute nonsense? And
given the hard evidence that supports why neutrinos are not
responsible, why is no-one challenging the sanity of Savic... and
whoever? ???

It's like waiting for the start of latest Spielburg blockbuster... but I
just know this video is going to turn out to be an almighty box
office flop... :'(

12

Mags:

What about your theory for heating water with some sort of a
circuit? If you changed your mind then no problem.

MileHigh

12

Chet:

We are overdue on the movies. Any news?

I will state it again: The movies are secondary. The presentation
of the results and all that goes with it is the most important thing.
I hope that will be forthcoming but if you get burned and "Mr.
COP 7" doesn't deliver then let us know. You don't need to
sugarcoat anything.

PhysicsProf stood his ground against Slovenia's attempts at
thought control about the neutrino issue. That's very good, an
injection of reality into the EF thread can only help, not hurt.

Duncan's posting about reactive power was absolute utter drivel.
Enough said.

MileHigh

12


PhysicsProf stood his ground against Slovenia's attempts at thought control
about the neutrino issue. That's very good, an injection of reality into the EF
thread can only help, not hurt.

MileHigh

Thanks, yes, on this we actually agree.

Note (on the same thread) that I have arranged to have one of
Prof Savic's devices sent to a researcher in western Europe for
testing/verification. I learned today that Prof Savic has already
sent the device (I paid the fees for this) -- and it is to his credit
that he is willing to have another scientist check his claims.
We should have results by the end of the month, assuming the
device arrives safely which I expect.

12

PhysicsProf:

Also assuming that this scientist in western Europe knows what he
or she is doing and is setup to do the testing and can write up a
proper report. If everything is good and we get solid test results
then Mr. Savic will be cornered and not be able to say "You didn't
do a proper replication." It should be interesting.

We have seen about 15 or 20 comments from Mr. Savic and even
with the translation problems he sounds like your typical promoter
of a far-fetched free energy scheme with no basis in reality. If he
is cornered he might disappear.

Meanwhile let's hope the "local" replicators can generate some
data. All of this bloody obsessing about how to physically build the
thing and almost no action with respect to doing actual testing is
just the same old story. One can always hope.

MileHigh

12

MH, I admire your patience and self-control, but above all I admire
your ability to cling to the very slimest glimmer of hope, when in
your heart you know you - as I do - exactly how this will turn out.
:(

12

PhysicsProf:

Also assuming that this scientist in western Europe knows what he or she is
doing and is setup to do the testing and can write up a proper report. If
everything is good and we get solid test results then Mr. Savic will be
cornered and not be able to say "You didn't do a proper replication." It should
be interesting.

We have seen about 15 or 20 comments from Mr. Savic and even with the
translation problems he sounds like your typical promoter of a far-fetched free
energy scheme with no basis in reality. If he is cornered he might
disappear.
[snip]

MileHigh

What makes you so sure that, even with solid test results, Prof.
"Savic will be cornered"? How do you know he will? I mean, the
results may turn out to vindicate his claims.

I will not pre-judge the results one way or the other, but
will wait to see the actual results, and the measurement
methods used.

Furthermore, after the first independent testing of Prof Savic's
device is completed, another series of tests by another scientist is
already planned.

12

PhysicsProf:

This is a resistive heater which is a unity device. You agree that it
has nothing to do with neutrinos. So what's left? Resonance?

In the free energy realm, resonance is misunderstood and it's an
idea that people can pin their hopes on. It's basically a fetish.
People believe that somehow resonance creates energy out of
nothing. A big reason for that is that they see signal amplitudes
increase at resonance and they erroneously equate that
observation to the production of extra energy. The people in the
free energy cottage industry know this and so they exploit it. This
creates a feedback loop between the exploiters and the believers
that goes round and round. So resonance is a mirage, partly
wishful thinking, partly manufactured.

All that you are left with is the hope it will work, and that's enough
for lots of people.

There is nothing to pre-judge, there are just the facts. Either you
accept the understanding of what happens when electric current
flows through a resistor or you don't. The resistor in this case
happens to be water, big deal. The end terminals that connect to
the water resistor might be shaped like spheres or cylinders that
have natural mechanical resonance frequencies, big deal.

If a 50 or 60 Hz electrical excitation causes the terminals to
mechanically resonate, all that really means is that you are getting
a form of motor action from the applied electrical excitation. That
means that the motor will cause a small voltage drop as current
flows through the water resistor. Therefore if you get any
mechanical resonance in the device, the small voltage drop
associated with this will result in a small decrease in the current
flow through the water resistor.

So if you accept the facts then there is no expectation of over
unity.

If you don't accept the facts then you are arguing for some sort of
entirely new physics that somehow has never been discovered,
even through the resistive heating of fluids has been done in
certain applications for decades if not longer. This new physics is
supposed to create energy out of nothingness.

There is just nothing there. Of course what I say is not likely to
change any personal opinions about this proposition!

The learning experience that one hopes for is that replicators
actually prove all of this for themselves. That would be so cool
and it would be the real victory, although many people would not
see it that way, but it would still be a victory.

MileHigh

P.S.: Like many people I am still hoping that LENR turns out to be
real. Is Rossi real? The warning flags are casting major doubt on
him, but perhaps there is some light at the end of the tunnel.
Perhaps within five years we will know one way or the other. And
of course this is not free energy, but by the same token it has
many parallels with free energy.

12

PhysicsProf:

This is a resistive heater which is a unity device. You agree that it has nothing
to do with neutrinos. So what's left? ....

So if you accept the facts then there is no expectation of over unity. ......

If you don't accept the facts then you are arguing for some sort of entirely new
physics that somehow has never been discovered, ......

MileHigh

P.S.: Like many people I am still hoping that LENR turns out to be
real. ..... perhaps there is some light at the end of the tunnel. Perhaps
within five years we will know one way or the other. .....

Seems you answered your own question! yes, perhaps it could be
LENR, although that is not the only source of "anomalous" energy
I suppose.
Perhaps this possibility will help you with an open mind as the
data are forthcoming.

12

I used to be an optimist, but time, experience (and Chet) changed
all that, now I'm a realist.

MH, for all the nonsense theories and utter gibberish being posted,
there is still the possibility of cavitation taking place in such a
device if the design parameters and mechanics of said device allow
for it. That said, whether or not this would result in - or indeed
explain - these alleged high COP figures, remains, of course, to be
seen.

I think all this hangs on the results of the Physics Prof's testing,
assuming that is, that it will be undertaken professionally and
scientifically. I certainly would not trust anyone of the others
playing with this to provide conclusive test results - most of them
don't seem to know their arse from their head! :)

12
Post by: poynt99 on 2012-01-13, 14:46:46

Professor,

Would it be possible to get the names and credentials of those who
will be performing the testing?

Thanks,
.99

12

@Milehigh
Quote
If you don't accept the facts then you are arguing for some sort of entirely new
physics that somehow has never been discovered, even through the resistive
heating of fluids has been done in certain applications for decades if not longer.
This new physics is supposed to create energy out of nothingness.

No, you are stating overly simplistic facts which are for the most
part pointless, according to your line of thought the space shuttle
is just a silly airplane, a nuclear reactor is a simple water heater
and the universe just a bunch of silly rocks floating around in
nothingness. Those are your facts and not those supported by real
scientists who understand how complex even simple systems can
be and why we cannot determine what will happen in every case.
Do you know why it is next to impossible to accurately model this
device even with the most powerful supercomputers on this
planet? because there are too many variables, that is so many
things can be effecting so many other things that the number of
interactions becomes massive. As well I regularly work with some
top of the line CFD modelling software and can tell you have no
idea what your talking about, this device is a CFD/Electrodynamics
nightmare.

Now let's look at the obvious, water is fluid and the energy is
moving through a fluid subject to mechanical and electrodynamic
effects relating to energy. I know in your opinion there is only
current, voltage and resistance however this is not the case
because the only thing that matters is energy or moreso energy
state. Current, voltage and resistance are not energy they are
variables and if at any point anywhere a condition changed these
variable then all bets are off. For example maybe you can tell me
exactly what happens in the realm of eletrodynamics when a low
pressure region evolves due to mechanical forces and micro-
bubbles form?. I will tell you what may happen, according to
Faradays laws the charge density must increase because the
charge has been displaced and obviously cannot remain in the
bubble when conducting through water. We may also have an
instance when the charge density increases to such an extent that
the bubble does conduct then collapse, what then?. Oh but I forgot
this is just a simple water resistor with some simple current flow
through it, nothing could ever happen,lol.

I should note that I am not saying this works or not as nobody
here knows however the only one making any sense would seem
to be PhysicsProf -- "I will not pre-judge the results one way or the
other, but will wait to see the actual results, and the measurement
methods used".

Regards
AC

12

AC:

I am a firm believer in building upon knowledge that is already
established and proven. If that attitude was more prevalent in the
free energy community then the propositioning of alleged free
energy schemes would be that much harder for the both the
people that genuinely believe that they have something of merit
and also for the con artists and the social engineering pranksters.
The mirror image of this thread is a prime example. The
propositioner is alleging that neutrinos are part of the explanation
and the vast majority of participants in the other thread are not
challenging that clearly false premise.

So I say that this experiment is a glorified resistor and no more
than that and I stand by it. I will pre-judge the results when there
is an established base of knowledge to draw on that says this is a
nonsensical experiment. At the same time, I am encouraging
people to discover this for themselves and do proper testing. I
would welcome as much testing as possible. I think that is fair
and reasonable.

MileHigh

12

Professor,

Would it be possible to get the names and credentials of those who will be
performing the testing?

Thanks,
.99

I'm going to exercise discretion here. There are rumors and some
documented incidences of suppression of this type of research.
For example, a colleague sent me some information -- which never
arrived. Now its hard to prove what agent prevented the arrival of
that data, but it is annoying to say the least. In view of this, I
decline to announce the names of the persons performing the
testing, until that testing is complete. To be frank, I will breathe
easier when the device actually arrives at the intended destination
for testing. It is now in transit.

12
Post by: poynt99 on 2012-01-14, 02:22:44

Professor,

In lieu of any names, their credentials would be sufficient.

Are either of them participants at either of the 3 forums?

.99

12

@Milehigh
No, you are stating overly simplistic facts which are for the most part pointless,
according to your line of thought the space shuttle is just a silly airplane, a
nuclear reactor is a simple water heater and the universe just a bunch of silly
rocks floating around in nothingness. Those are your facts and not those
supported by real scientists who understand how complex even simple systems
can be and why we cannot determine what will happen in every case. Do you
know why it is next to impossible to accurately model this device even with the
most powerful supercomputers on this planet? because there are too many
variables, that is so many things can be effecting so many other things that the
number of interactions becomes massive. As well I regularly work with some
top of the line CFD modelling software and can tell you have no idea what your
talking about, this device is a CFD/Electrodynamics nightmare.

Now let's look at the obvious, water is fluid and the energy is moving through a
fluid subject to mechanical and electrodynamic effects relating to energy. I
know in your opinion there is only current, voltage and resistance however this
is not the case because the only thing that matters is energy or moreso energy
state. Current, voltage and resistance are not energy they are variables and if
at any point anywhere a condition changed these variable then all bets are off.
For example maybe you can tell me exactly what happens in the realm of
eletrodynamics when a low pressure region evolves due to mechanical forces
and micro-bubbles form?. I will tell you what may happen, according to
Faradays laws the charge density must increase because the charge has been
displaced and obviously cannot remain in the bubble when conducting through
water. We may also have an instance when the charge density increases to
such an extent that the bubble does conduct then collapse, what then?. Oh but
I forgot this is just a simple water resistor with some simple current flow
through it, nothing could ever happen,lol.

I should note that I am not saying this works or not as nobody here knows
however the only one making any sense would seem to be PhysicsProf -- "I will
not pre-judge the results one way or the other, but will wait to see the actual
results, and the measurement methods used".

Regards
AC

That was like a Jerry Maguire mission statement! ;]

Mags

12
Post by: muDped on 2012-01-14, 06:14:45

This web page Article (http://www.sparkbangbuzz.com/els/borax-
el.htm) (referenced earlier) will
provide insights into aluminum electrode conduction
characteristics within an electrolyte solution when
powered by alternating current at 50/60 Hz.

The conduction angle will be relatively small (when
both electrodes are aluminum) to produce a current
impulse which is perhaps capable of stimulating
"ringing" or sonic waves within the solution at
multiples of the line frequency.

Photons may also be produced in either direction of
current flow under certain circumstances.

12

AC:

I am a firm believer in building upon knowledge that is already established and
proven. If that attitude was more prevalent in the free energy community then
the propositioning of alleged free energy schemes would be that much harder
for the both the people that genuinely believe that they have something of
merit and also for the con artists and the social engineering pranksters.

MileHigh

I couldn't agree more. Without building upon knowledge that is
already established and/or proven, without a firm footing to work
from, the door is wide open to every uneducated, fumbling
wannabe and cock-eyed theory imaginable.

It is clear that some of the people over on the 'Darkside' have
absolutely no clue as to what they are doing or talking about. And
as soon as anyone questions things or provides any results to the
contrary, they are made very unwelcome. Look at how Slovenia
recently attacked the posts of someone who found no 'positive'
results in his experiments. I've often seen this on EF, if you don't
post positive or encouraging results then you are not welcome to
participate... woe betide anyone that asks awkward scientific
questions or posts negative comments that might dispel the
fantasy and upset the delusional. >:(

12

@FarrahDay
Quote
I couldn't agree more. Without building upon knowledge that is already
established and/or proven, without a firm footing to work from, the door is
wide open to every uneducated, fumbling wannabe and cock-eyed theory
imaginable.

The problem with always building upon something already
established should be obvious as there can be no reversal, we
build one layer on the other however if the foundation cracks then
it is only a matter of time before the whole structure must collapse
with it. I think your use of the word "uneducated" speaks for itself
and we should have learned by now that no good can come from
this form of racism, it always ends badly. We should also
understand that all the science we have was at one time seen as
cock-eyed and most likely will be in the future as history has
proven time and time again. The psychology here seems obvious,
it is not about science but normalcy, that is a resistance to change
of any kind even though we know it is inevitable.
Quote
It is clear that some of the people over on the 'Darkside' have absolutely no
clue as to what they are doing or talking about. And as soon as anyone
questions things or provides any results to the contrary, they are made very
unwelcome. Look at how Slovenia recently attacked the posts of someone who
found no 'positive' results in his experiments. I've often seen this on EF, if you
don't post positive or encouraging results then you are not welcome to
participate... woe betide anyone that asks awkward scientific questions or posts
negative comments that might dispel the fantasy and upset the delusional.

It is posts like these that are probably why people are made
unwelcome, what would you expect when you call someone an
uneducated delusional living in a fantasy?, a big hug?, lol.

Regards
AC

12

AC, I'm sure you just post for arguments sake. C.C

As per usual you either miss the point completely, misconstrue
what is being implied or deliberately try to twist what has been
said. You do make me smile tho'... calling somebody 'uneducated'
is 'racism'? What?? C.C How ever do you work that one out? If a
person or persons are clearly lacking in the subject knowledge, I
think 'uneducated' is a very fitting word.

We've been through all this before when I called IST, a total and
utter, retarded idiot, remember. Like it or not uneducated,
ignorant and retarded idiots exist, in fact they are a plenty, and
you playing with words and doing your holier-than-thou bit won't
change that, so I suggest you get over it.

For some reason you seem to have great trouble with plain-
speaking people, but if you want to call a 'spade' a name that
would cover three sentences just to be politically correct, well
that's up to you.

12

Professor,

1. In lieu of any names, their credentials would be sufficient.

2. Are either of them participants at either of the 3 forums?

.99

1. What is more important here -- credentials, or open-source
plans so that basically anyone can make the device and test it for
himself/herself?

2. Yes.

12

PhysicsProf:

Credentials are important because collectively we have been
burned so many times that it would be nice to at least get a sense
about the person that will be doing the testing. By "we" I mean
the whole free energy community.

Now that we know that the tester is already a participant in the
forums I fail to see why they have to be anonymous. At least I
would expect that when they do the testing and make their first
postings that they would reveal their identity?

To give this some context PhysicsProf, let's take a hypothetical
example for an electronics circuit that allegedly demonstrates over
unity. If someone were to send the circuit to Stefan or Aaron for
testing then it would be a non-starter because neither Stefan or
Aaron are qualified to test an electronic circuit for over unity. The
fact that they run two free energy forums means nothing. Over
the past three years it has become abundantly clear to me that
neither of them would be qualified to do this hypothetical task. I
am not intentionally being harsh, I am just being a realist.
Rosemary Ainslie talks about inviting Stefann to South Africa to
verify her setup is over unity and she is making a mistake.

Anyway, I hope that whomever is doing the testing is qualified to
do it and they do an excellent job in presenting their data and I
wish them well.

MileHigh

12
Post by: poynt99 on 2012-01-14, 20:58:53

Of course credentials are important!

In fact it's no.2 on the list following no.1 which is having all the
necessary details to replicate the experiment.

It appears that the person is "NerzhDishual" from OU. He is 64
now, from Brittany/France, and from what I can tell, he has an
education in either electronics or electrical. He seems like a good
guy and is an experimenter as well; I believe him and I exchanged
a couple of posts in the past.

.99

12

@FarrahDay
Quote
We've been through all this before when I called IST, a total and utter,
retarded idiot, remember. Like it or not uneducated, ignorant and retarded
idiots exist, in fact they are a plenty, and you playing with words and doing
your holier-than-thou bit won't change that, so I suggest you get over it.

This is because I am holier-than-thou puny mortal, thy shalt cast
down fire, brimstone and time reversed Zipons on thee for
speaking in vain the name of thy holy grand master IST. Thy
mighty IST shall smite thee with his holy Tesla shield from ancient
times in the name of thy father "The John ######", begone non-
believer --- begone!.
Quote
AC, I'm sure you just post for arguments sake
Im sure I do too,lol , much of this seems so ridiculous at times
that it's hard not to poke fun at it and myself. Unfortunately this
shtick is getting old and is not nearly as entertaining as it used to
be, not long ago a person could just roll into a thread and throw a
hornets nest into the middle of it and stir up some interesting
debate but there seems to be an eerie calm in the forums lately. I
think I'm going to pull the pin or stick to purely technical issues,
although it was a lot of fun when I think back on the last year.

Regards
AC

12

I will tell you all the real power...

We, who observe, have to watch in vain as the aggressors fall on
their own swords in due time.
What goes around, comes around. Be careful how you treat others
for in your future you too shall be treated likewise. With no escape
possible...

[Life] is a 4 letter word.

12
Post by: HairBear on 2012-01-14, 23:02:33

It is clear that some of the people over on the 'Darkside' have absolutely no
clue as to what they are doing or talking about. And as soon as anyone
questions things or provides any results to the contrary, they are made very
unwelcome. Look at how Slovenia recently attacked the posts of someone who
found no 'positive' results in his experiments. I've often seen this on EF, if you
don't post positive or encouraging results then you are not welcome to
participate... woe betide anyone that asks awkward scientific questions or posts
negative comments that might dispel the fantasy and upset the delusional. >:(

DunningKruger effect

The DunningKruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled
people make poor decisions and reach erroneous conclusions, but
their incompetence denies them the metacognitive ability to
recognize their mistakes.[1] The unskilled therefore suffer from
illusory superiority, rating their ability as above average, much
higher than it actually is, while the highly skilled underrate their
own abilities, suffering from illusory inferiority.

Actual competence may weaken self-confidence, as competent
individuals may falsely assume that others have an equivalent
understanding. As Kruger and Dunning conclude, "the
miscalibration of the incompetent stems from an error about the
self, whereas the miscalibration of the highly competent stems
from an error about others" (p. 1127).[2] The effect is about
paradoxical defects in cognitive ability, both in oneself and as one
compares oneself to others.

12
Post by: muDped on 2012-01-14, 23:48:25

Quote from: Farrah Day
...

For some reason you seem to have great trouble with plain-speaking people,
but if you want to call a 'spade' a name that would cover three sentences just
to be politically correct, well that's up to you.

Most folks don't have any problem with
"plain speaking people." Problems arise
when "attitude" enters the discourse and
"supremacy" becomes the modus operandi.

There are some "forum personalities" who
delight in dishing it out but are very thin
skinned when on the receiving end...

It does help tremendously to maintain a good
sense of humor - much of the banter is truly
in ostensibly good natured posturing. Making
fun can often seem like abusive criticism.

Some find it very difficult to reserve "judgment"
on any matter until the unbiased scientific
investigation has been completed. The "my
knowledge is better than your knowledge" card
is played far too often.

Riding the "High Horse" is really quite satisfying.
Too bad that many "forum people" eschew high
places.

Cultural differences...

12

Giantkiller:

This one is for you and I think that you will understand....

Far between sundowns finish and midnights broken toll
We ducked inside the doorway as thunder went crashing
As majestic bells of bolts struck shadows in the sounds
Seeming to be the chimes of freedom flashing

Flashing for the warriors whose strength is not to fight
Flashing for the refugees on the unarmed road of flight
And for each and every underdog soldier in the night
And we gazed upon the chimes of freedom flashing

Through the citys melted furnace, unexpectedly we watched
With faces hidden as the walls were tightening
As the echo of the wedding bells before the blowing rain
Dissolved into the bells of the lightning

Tolling for the rebel, tolling for the rake
Tolling for the luckless, the abandoned and forsaked
Tolling for the outcast, burning constantly at stake

MileHigh

12

Dumped, I don't think you've quite got the knack of poetry - see
what MH, has done... see how parts of it rhyme. ;)

Are we just amusing ourselves now, whilst we wait for the big
screen premier of... Da, Da Daaa! 'Chet vs the Sonic Boiler'

It's gone ominously quiet all of a sudden, perhaps the begining of
the end... even Chet appears to have run out of hype! :(

Are we now at that stage where everyone making these claims,
quietly fades away into cyberspace, never to be heard from again,
alas taking with them all the evidence to support their claims? :'(

12

@FarrahDay
Quote
even Chet appears to have run out of hype

Were running out of Hype!, Oh we are so screwed, I will run down
to the corner and see if my neighbor has some.

Regards
AC

12

Quote
..."NerzhDishual" from OU. He is 64 now, from Brittany/France, and from what
I can tell, he has an education in either electronics or electrical. He seems like
a good guy and is an experimenter as well; I believe him and I exchanged a
couple of posts in the past.
.99

Yes, we are in agreement -- ND is " a good guy and is an
experimenter as well".

12
Post by: Chet K on 2012-01-15, 16:24:04

A fisher of men ..............[Farrah]
Farrah I've been chewin that bait for days!!

So ..................Cavitation Huh?? Now you sound like Chester??
You know.... that guy that Loves His Shrimp so much!! [pistol
Shrimp]

I recently started working with a life long friend ,The goal being to
help him run his facility for young troubled adults with life
impinging issues ... I'm to be a liason with the outside world.
I feel drawn to this work, So many Kids that have had such ruff
lives in a world with so few good examples ,You cannot Imagine
the Tolerance level I need to maintain ,I feel so much more
Comphy here since I started that position!!

Professor Jones ...You are a man apart ..I salute you and your
dedication towards making this world a better place.
Putting your money where your mouth is and not hiding behind the
Comphy veil of anonymity.

This moves forward ....... behind the scenes I have been
contacting men with the skills necesary to replicate this .
The first part is the Drive ,I will be building this also open source.

Farrah Just Hold your Horse sweety!
THX
Chet
PS
Please forgive My spelling ... My old home computer has no spell
check...I have been away from my Home for 2weeks 24/7 in
training The computor at the facility has spell check...I'm only
home for 40hrs so your tolerance will be appreciated!
PPS
Now I have to go repair my Furnace........[Again]

12
Post by: ION on 2012-01-15, 18:08:46

Quote

I've always been a big Bob Dylan fan, and this is one of my
favorites, along with Desolation Row and many, many others

12

Farrah Just Hold your Horse sweety!
THX
Chet

Dear, dear Chet, your faith in people and your endless optimism
never ceases to amaze me, but I predict we will run out of oil
before the Sonic Boiler comes to the planet's rescue! :'(

12
Post by: muDped on 2012-01-15, 23:08:46

Quote from: Farrah Day
Dumped, I don't think you've quite got the knack of poetry - see what MH, has
done... see how parts of it rhyme. ;)

Are we just amusing ourselves now, whilst we wait for the big screen premier
of... Da, Da Daaa! 'Chet vs the Sonic Boiler'

It's gone ominously quiet all of a sudden, perhaps the begining of the end...
even Chet appears to have run out of hype! :(

Are we now at that stage where everyone making these claims, quietly fades
away into cyberspace, never to be heard from again, alas taking with them all
the evidence to support their claims? :'(

Aye, 'tis true. Poetry is not my bag.

The appreciation of Wine, Women and Song
are far more fascinating, intriguing, tempting,
inviting, provocative, stimulating, exciting,
entertaining, eventful and otherwise consume
what time I have remaining for recreational
pursuits...

Poetry has some merit, however. A good
Limerick is highly prized.

When reports of the scientific evaluation procedures
begin to trickle in there will undoubtedly be more
voluminous commentary.

12
Post by: muDped on 2012-01-16, 06:41:52

Quote from: HairBear

DunningKruger effect

The DunningKruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled people make
poor decisions and reach erroneous conclusions, but their incompetence denies
them the metacognitive ability to recognize their mistakes.[1] The unskilled
therefore suffer from illusory superiority, rating their ability as above average,
much higher than it actually is, while the highly skilled underrate their own
abilities, suffering from illusory inferiority.

Actual competence may weaken self-confidence, as competent individuals may
falsely assume that others have an equivalent understanding. As Kruger and
Dunning conclude, "the miscalibration of the incompetent stems from an error
about the self, whereas the miscalibration of the highly competent stems from
an error about others" (p. 1127).[2] The effect is about paradoxical defects in
cognitive ability, both in oneself and as one compares oneself to others.

Thank you HairBear for the above
enlightenment.

Here (http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/7351-
######-earth-light-81.html#post176080) it is possible to see
the Dunning-Kruger effect demonstrated.

The only "disinformation" allowed on that
particular forum is that which originates with
the Chief Dis-Informer himself - any other
"suspects" will be permanently banned.

Amusing, but at the same time pathetic...

12

Thank you HairBear for the above
enlightenment.

Here (http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/7351-######-
earth-light-81.html#post176080) it is possible to see
the Dunning-Kruger effect demonstrated.

The only "disinformation" allowed on that
particular forum is that which originates with
the Chief Dis-Informer himself - any other
"suspects" will be permanently banned.

Amusing, but at the same time pathetic...

Can you tell us about the ###### earth-light and why you
(apparently) don't like it? I'm curious, but would rather not read
that huge thread at EF...

12
Post by: muDped on 2012-01-19, 08:04:59

The "Earth Light" topic, unfortunately,
is an example of how easily the "blind"
are able to lead the "blind" anywhere
they desire.

If the principal participants in the discussion
would make some seerious effort to research
the chemistry of their various experimental cells
then it could possibly become a positively educational
experience.

Some few have attempted to explain the chemistry
involved but weren't able to make much head-
way in overcoming the fantasies. Such is life in
today's world of "replicators." In truth, it was perhaps
equally so in my youth - not all of us were keen on
doing the needed research and study to enable
coming to the proper conclusions...

Mistakes and wrong conclusions may serve some
purpose in motivating a greater dedication to
putting the horse before the cart and taking care
of other necessary details.

The link provided was to a specific posting in the
thread where the Illustrious Moderator made some
rather startling pronouncements. I see that he has
since "edited" his original posting to remove the
potentially self damaging rhetoric.

Perhaps someone clued him in to the Dunning-Kruger
effect.

12

Thanks for the insights, Dumped.
Would you say that the "Earth lights" are galvanic? Why are so
many interested in a low-power battery, if that's what this is?

12
Post by: muDped on 2012-01-19, 22:00:43

Quote from: PhysicsProf
Would you say that the "Earth lights" are galvanic?

Those which are made with metal electrodes
buried in the earth are. Each of the cells
made with dissimilar metal electrodes are.
Quote from: PhysicsProf
Why are so many interested in a low-power battery, if that's what this is?

They're great fun to make and evaluate
experimentally. It's a new novelty.

Until its limitations and realities are fully
understood by the experimenters it will
be thought of as a potential breakthrough
for a source of free (or very inexpensive) energy.

Most of the participants will be disappointed
while a few will be encouraged to continue study
to learn why those limitations prevent the cells
from delivering abundant energy.

They could indeed serve as a valuable stepping
stone to improved electrochemical cell designs
for those who persist - with good study.

Learning how to make things with practical value
is always gratifying.

12
Post by: muDped on 2012-01-23, 03:17:11

Anomalous heat production has been reported
as a consequence of electrolytic/electrolysis
procedures for quite some time.

If in fact there is significant excess heating
from the Savic Sonic Water Heater does it bear
any similarity to the previously reported excess
heating processes?

Potassium Carbonate / Nickel Electrolytic Cell
(http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/sensors/PhySen/docs/TM-
107167.pdf)

Electrochemical Hydriding of Nickel
(http://newenergytimes.com/v2/library/1998/1998MengoliG-
AnomalousHeatEffects-w.pdf)

Granted, in the Savic device the materials are
different - but clearly, something is happening
with the aluminum electrodes. Particularly during
the "reverse polarization" when photons are emitted.

It is possible that hydrogen/oxygen recombination is
taking place?

12

I have purchased a

Quote
"NORPRO 559 Immersion Heater for Warming Liquids"
$6.82
In Stock
See attached photo.

Very useful for comparisons with Davey-type heaters and very
inexpensive! (It even ships to me for free using Amazon Prime.)

Other models are available for use with 220V and with 12V DC.

My idea is to use the heater as a control, to check the instruments
and measurement methods.
For example, I will use a wattage meter to measure the input
power and thermometers to measure the rise in temperature in
the water to measure Q -- for both the control (using the
immersion heater pictured) AND with the Davey-type device.

Note that the heat of vaporization due to steam production can
also be determined if one is careful to "waft away" the produced
steam with a small fan.
Quote
Heat of Vaporization-the amount of heat required to convert unit mass of a
liquid into the vapor without a change in temperature.

For water at its normal boiling point of 100 C, the heat of vaporization is
2260 J g-1. This means that to convert 1 g of water at 100 C to 1 g of steam
at 100 C,

2260 J of heat must be absorbed by the water.
Hv = mass in grams lost due to vaporization * 2260 J g-1.

One measures the mass of the water before and after the "run" for
a given W-h input, say 50 W-h; this gives the mass of the water
lost due to vaporization IF one is careful not to allow water
droplets to escape the vessel, just steam.

By inserting the immersion heater into the SAME container as the
Davey heater, and inserting the SAME watts of power into each
heater (one at a time), one can immediately compare the rise in
temperature of the water (along with the mass lost due to
vaporization) BETWEEN the TWO heaters, and straightforwardly
determine which is more efficient. OU should be quickly
demonstrable, if indeed the Davey heater is OU.

The heat lost due to electrolysis should be small I think and will
tend to LOWER the calculated efficiency (making the calculation
conservative); and recombination of H and O will simply add this
energy lost back into the system.

Note that the immersion heater should have a nominal efficiency
of one (in a well-insulated water container).

I like easy-to-see tests of concept like this!

12

Interesting to make the comparison, but I would fully expect the
Savic boiler to be more efficient than the immersion heater in that
the resistive element is the water itself, which is the very thing
that we require to be heated. Whereas the immersion heater firstly
has to heat itself up before conducting this heat to the surrounding
water.

I wouldn't be too concerned about electrolysis occurring. Science
books will tell you it doesn't happen with AC, and I have never
been able dissociate water into its component gases unless the AC
is accompanied by an underlying DC component. Unlike with DC,
charged species simply do not travel to and from the electrodes
with AC. I'm not saying that there will be absolutely no electrolysis
occurring, because in all likelihood there will be some intermittent
ionic species charge exchanging at the electrodes, but it will be to
such a small degree as to be immeasurable and hence negligible in
the grand scheme of things.

12

@FarrahDay
Quote
Interesting to make the comparison, but I would fully expect the Savic boiler to
be more efficient than the immersion heater in that the resistive element is the
water itself, which is the very thing that we require to be heated. Whereas the
immersion heater firstly has to heat itself up before conducting this heat to the
surrounding water.

Hmm, I'm surprised you would think this because conventional
theory and the conservation of energy dictate that both methods
must be equally efficient, that is 100% efficient minus
measurement error. Thus if we allow the temperature to reach an
equilibrium before measuring they must in every case be exactly
equal, no more no less. I find it odd that you are always arguing
that we can never get more out of a system even if external
energy is considered and yet here you seem to be implying that
one resistor could be more efficient than another which I find
improbable if not impossible, or does the conservation of energy
apply only at your discretion?.

Regards
AC

12

You know what, I give up with you AC. As I've said before, it's like
you post just for the sake of argument.

I'm certainly not suggesting that one resistor is more efficient than
another, or questioning the laws of the conservation of energy, but
rather putting it to you that the water will heat faster with the
Savic boiler - but as per usual you are plying your trade of twisting
words.

Commonsense surely dictates that the resistive element in the
immersion heater firstly has to get hot itself, then conduct this
heat to its metal container before this heat then conducts to the
surrounding water, whereas the Savic boiler will start heating the
water instantly as the water is effectively the resistive element.
You don't think that the element of the immersion heater will
partially act as a heatsink?

When and where have I argued that we can never get more out of
a system even if external energy is considered?

Not that it matters as I doubt you and I will ever see eye-to-eye in
anything.

12

@FarrahDay
Quote
I'm certainly not suggesting that one resistor is more efficient than another, or
questioning the laws of the conservation of energy, but rather putting it to you
that the water will heat faster with the Savic boiler - but as per usual you are
plying your trade of twisting words.

If you were not suggesting that one resistor is more efficient than
another then why did you say it?.
ie....
Quote
.but I would fully expect the Savic boiler to be more efficient than the
immersion heater in that the resistive element is the water itself, which is the
very thing that we require to be heated

Quote
Commonsense surely dictates that the resistive element in the immersion
heater firstly has to get hot itself, then conduct this heat to its metal container
before this heat then conducts to the surrounding water, whereas the Savic
boiler will start heating the water instantly as the water is effectively the
resistive element. You don't think that the element of the immersion heater
will partially act as a heatsink?

I wouldn't use the work heatsink however it would effect the heat
transfer which relates to time and effect the final temperature to a
small degree depending on the mass of water considered.
Quote
When and where have I argued that we can never get more out of a system
even if external energy is considered?
Every time you assume nothing out of the ordinary could ever be
happening in every device you critique, when you automatically
discount all external forces as irrelevant then assume nothing out
of the ordinary can ever occur. Isn't this what you do Farrah, tell
us why nothing can ever work and that we are all basically
delusional -- or am I missing something?.

Regards
AC

12
Post by: muDped on 2012-01-26, 18:47:02

Quote from: AllCanadian
-- or am I missing something?.

Yes.

You are missing some thing.

12

I agree with the need for actual experiments!

I took the attached photo today. It shows stainless steel vessels in
various geometric shapes (including cylindrical and spherical)
which I have begun using to test Davey sonic boiler concepts. Most
of these shapes already have a small hole so that I can connect
wires to the vessels as well as connecting them in various
relationships. I have a number of nylon nuts and bolts and spacers
for this purpose.

The parameter space is large! it will take me awhile, but I have
begun the testing (see for instance, a test run earlier in this
thread).

12
Post by: Chet K on 2012-01-28, 00:51:36

The suspense is killin me!!
@Dumped
What did he miss?

@Steve
I see a couple ikeas [all cut up so nice]... a nice witts globe...

Yes, I grow quite anxious to experiment again!!
I was told to hold my horses on the ikea!![Patience is a virtue]

THX
Chet

12

...
Every time you assume nothing out of the ordinary could ever be happening in
every device you critique, when you automatically discount all external forces
as irrelevant then assume nothing out of the ordinary can ever occur. Isn't this
what you do Farrah, tell us why nothing can ever work and that we are all
basically delusional -- or am I missing something?.
...

Yes you are missing something. No skeptic assumes nothing out of
the ordinary could ever be happening in every device. Your
statement is an idea of believers, denigrating skeptics. I didn't
read such a statement from Farrah. A skeptic assumes nothing out
of the ordinary is happening in every device until evidence of the
contrary is provided, and a skeptic says nothing out of the ordinary
is happening in this particular device, because until now there is
no experimental evidence, or an evidence was shown but
discarded for reasons that the skeptic expressed, and there are
conventional explanations from the known science for what is
observed and is not extraordinary.

12

Are we now at that stage where everyone making these claims, quietly fades
away into cyberspace, never to be heard from again, alas taking with them all
the evidence to support their claims? :'(

Believe it or not...

18 days and counting.... I rest my case your honour.

12
Post by: rizla on 2012-02-15, 23:29:36

@farrah day

Yes this did not look hopefull from the start, but is there any need
to gloat? If i had a feeling he was offering dis-information he would
deserve in my opinion one of your venomous verbal kick-ins. As it
happens he needed far more proof before announcing this device
and it looks like just a waste of time as it stands, with no real
harm done?

So what else do you do besides putting people down? How about
splitting the water molecule, have you figured out how to create
electrical stress across a waterbath? ....please tell us what you
have been doing.

12

Rizla:

Somebody could have been electrocuted and died. How would you
feel then?

Whether it be a con artist or a nutcase getting people to jump
through hoops playing with lethal electricity and water, challenging
them for some rationale in what they are doing is a valid thing to
do and a valid concern.

When the instructions presented by the person presenting the
proposition look infantile and make no sense, what's wrong with
pointing that out? If someone was trying to teach you to drive a
car and they gave you inconsistent and illogical instructions
sometimes, would you accept that?

Sometimes it is legitimate to give people a hard time if they are
going to do stupid and/or dangerous things for nothing. You are
not forcing them to stop, just strongly advising them.

The only thing left to this thread is the faint hope that Chet's friend
will do a very impressive demo on video.

MileHigh

12
Post by: rizla on 2012-02-16, 23:07:36

Milehigh only children should be told not to play with electricity,
are you saying these people are children? Maybe a disclaimer
should be placed on this site that they are not responsible for any
deaths from anyone playing with electricity.

When anyone comes onto a site like this they are clearly not
dealing with just mainstream science. If you are not aware of the
suppression of science and technology through the holding of so
many patents and the various means that have been used to end
the careers of scientist and inventors then you will not understand
why mainstream science offers no answers.

Tesla had his funding cut when he spoke of free energy and over
half his patents held still to this day, that is censorship of science,
the suppression of technology, thats what mainstream science is.
As you research you will uncover more and more examples of
censorship, mainstream science offers little hope of finding
anything overunity becouse it is designed that way. You do not
need to cut funding, withhold patents ect. if there is nothing to
hide, the powers that should not be would not be bothered if you
looked for something that could not be found.

Anyone who only thinks inside this mainstream science box will
tend to drag down everyone else to there level, especially if they
are intolerant to more forward thinking posts.

I am not saying its a open day for people who have a theory the
atom is made of cheese, there is nothing wrong with challenging or
pointing out something that makes no sense but when they do not
understand the purpose of this site sometimes it`s neccessary to
question there motivation for posting.

12

Quote
Milehigh only children should be told not to play with electricity, are you saying
these people are children?

Too right! Rizla, you are one sad and deluded person if you think
that many of these people 'playing' with electricity have more
knowledge and common sense than children. Of course it depends
on education, but if the posts on the 'Peter Davey Sonic Boiler'
thread over at EF are anything to go by, then electrocution is just
an accident waiting to happen.

As strange as it may seem to some of you, I'm all about the
science.

I can't abide by unscientific diatribe, from clueless idiots that never
made it past infant school, trying to make out that they know
something that other people, including scientists, do not.

I fully accept that I'm not the most accommodating of people
when it comes to accepting people on face value, but let's be
honest here, what we are most accustomed to seeing is flawed
science, scam artists and charlatans. And Im not one to suffer
fools gladly.

Rizla, if people like yourself have trouble seeing things the way I
do, well then... tough shit! I always have and always will speak my
mind and be true to myself.

Sterling Allan has no less than 18 articles relating to the now
infamous Fast Freddy, 'I have a truck that runs just on water' still
active on PESN. Fast Freddy, who we all now know to be a fraud
and a con man, yet the articles are still there... why? The same
goes for Bob Boyce, someone who was made out to be a 'Water
Fuel Cell' guru, but who in reality has never shown anything of
consequence to anyone. These people are charlatans at best, scam
merchants out to make a quick dollar at worst, yet Sterling treats
them as best friends.

My field of expertise is electrolysis and the dissociation of the
water molecule and Im more qualified on this subject than anyone
else Ive ever conversed with, which is one reason why I knew Fast
Freddy was talking utter bollocks from the get go. The likes of FF
do not even understand Faradays Law of Electrolysis, yet at the
same time they claim to be breaking it and hence are prepared too
dismiss it out of hand as out-dated!! These are the real bad guys
here not me!

And, unlike Fast Freddy, Boyce and others, Ive never made
fraudulent claims do you see the difference? I doubt it!

You can be as accommodating and as nice to the charlatans and
scam merchants as you wish - I'm sure they won't discriminate
when they take your money!

And as for the suppression of science... do you really believe that
any and all science that may benefit mankind gets shelved? That
everyone gets bought off? Its always the same old cop-out...
stopped by the MIB. Get real... your as bad as the people that
think the moon landings are a conspiracy!

Grow up, and get a life!

12
Post by: rizla on 2012-02-17, 09:26:27

Well done farrah day i have just read some research from one of
your posts

"Sterling Allan has no less than 18 articles relating to the now
infamous Fast Freddy"

So what is going on here? It does not look like simple scammers
they are after money and make that clear.

I think i can see the victim and have a idea why.

Yes farrah day i agree there is something very wrong.

quote fd
"And, unlike Fast Freddy, Boyce and others, Ive never made
fraudulent claims do you see the difference? I doubt it!"

No shit you dont say

ravvi, lawton, compton, boyce, bendini and a number of others all
seem to be big names that have been around forever and offer no
device with independent evaluation. Lawton built his device to try
and replicate meyers demo cell in the 80`s. I can find nobody who
has got ravvi, lawton or comptons cells working on a forum, just
worthless youtube videos and the ravvi d14 doc seems to have no
scientific basis whatsoever, a little strange for technology based on
the lawton cell some 25 years old. So what you end up with is
people going round in circles trying to build something that will
never work till they give up and get another hobby. While there
doing that they are not trying to build something that can be made
to work, geddit??

quote fd
"And as for the suppression of science... do you really believe that
any and all science that may benefit mankind gets shelved? That
everyone gets bought off? Its always the same old cop-out...
stopped by the MIB. Get real... your as bad as the people that
think the moon landings are a conspiracy!"

This is as bad as non scientific drivel, it really annoys me, no not
all science that benefits mankind i am talking of anything that
threatens the current energy supplys. It`s the main reason the
patent system was set up, you build a overunity device, you put
the patent in and they hold it under national security and buy your
silence did you not bother to research before writeing your drivel.
Dont want to sell out they assasinate you eg meyer. Dont put
patents in? Look at wilhelm reich, his research was from a odd
angle but he had harnessed free energy, they put him in prison
confiscated his equipment took his books from the shops and burnt
them described as one of the biggest censorships in american
history. The more you research do the more you find but you
never bothered to research did you?

If you look at meyer you failed to spot the obvious, the patents
were released in 2007 and yet he died in 1998, patents take a
maximum of two years to process then released into the public
domain, so the logical question why would the american
government hold onto patents of a fast freddy? Yet you were
unable to work out if meyer was a FF or not even some 4 years
after 2007. Can you work out why the patents were released in
2007?

I suppose they just forgot to release over half of tesla`s patents,
do you even know what a genious the bloke was? Ever heard of
HAARP?

You never even tried to answer my point about withheld patents, it
was just a brushed off, there was no information in your head to
draw from. I have worked out where you are comeing from, you
are a bully.

12

Rizla, you like many others seem to only see what you want to see
and then twist things - when did this become an issue about
patents? Forget about the patents, think about the science.

There may well be some genuine people with genuine working
devices out there, and that's great, it's not them that bother me.
Dave Lawton is a good guy; he has never made wild claims and
has always gone the extra mile in order to try to understand the
science. It's the likes of Fast Freddy that are the real issue; not a
clue what he is doing and no clue about the science. Clearly a con
man, yet all this is rather conveniently overlooked by Sterling
because its yet another story.
Quote
If you look at meyer you failed to spot the obvious, the patents were released
in 2007 and yet he died in 1998, patents take a maximum of two years to
process then released into the public domain, so the logical question why would
the american government hold onto patents of a fast freddy? Yet you were
unable to work out if meyer was a FF or not even some 4 years after 2007. Can
you work out why the patents were released in 2007?

As far as Im aware FF has no patents why would he, he has
never had a working device - and if he does have patents
(Hydrostar??), they are worthless. And frankly I dont give two
hoots for the patents of Meyer, Ive seen them and Ive seen his
lectures and you dont need to be a genius to see that the guy was
talking nonsense, making it up as he went along and hence clearly
a charlatan - I don't think I've ever been more than clear in my
views about that.

If Im seen as a bully just because I come down hard on people
out to make money from the nave and gullible, then so be it! The
gullible folk that fall for these scams probably deserve what they
get, but at least I make an effort to highlight the issues and bring
down the scams. And if not intentionally a scam, then at least I
pursue the truth and stand up for real science.

12
Post by: rizla on 2012-02-18, 04:24:43

ok farrah day, your reply says you do not really wish to continue.

I have not twisted any facts, maybe some research is erroneous, it
is not intenstional. My point of patent/science was my second post
and the main focus of what i am saying. You have not answered
almost all most of my points, your brief mention of the patents
talks mostly of fast freddy, i have made it clear in the sentence his
name is used only as a reference to fraud. Your reply avoids the
points i made.

If you can provide proof the lawton device increases LPM over
normal hydrolysis by any usefull amount please do and i will have
a re-think, or at least shed light on what his claims are. The d14
doc based on this technology is nonsense, i can not find a single
replication on a forum that claims a working device.

Your persuit of science is fine. My point that science has been
censored - unchallenged, you cannot say your twisting facts then
run away.

quote fd

"If Im seen as a bully just because I come down hard on people
out to make money from the nave and gullible, then so be it! The
gullible folk that fall for these scams probably deserve what they
get, but at least I make an effort to highlight the issues and bring
down the scams. And if not intentionally a scam, then at least I
pursue the truth and stand up for real science."

I agree this is good but it is not what you do on the whole. What
you do is look for easy prey to give a verbal slap. One example is
"wattsup" he posts a theory on the electron haveing no mass, you
come along and give him a verbal slap quoteing mainstream
science. "allcanadian" replys and you back off with no answer.
Heres the point you suppress forward thinking with your verbal
attacks, if science is censored and someone thinks outside of that
box posts, you who thinks inside the box comes along to give
them a verbal slap, so what does that do? suppress the range of
thinking. Does that mean a field day for any bullshit ideas? No, but
maybe the job of policing the quality of science presented needs to
be proven on a forum like this, can you prove yourself? Can you
help people on this forum progress with there research? Can you
go up against the sharp minds you have on this forum? I can`t, i
can chip in, i do not have enough indepth wide range knowledge to
claim that position and i do not run this forum.

Fast freddy from your evidence and what i have found is connected
with organized dis-information not a bunch of scammers after a
quick buck. That is almost certainly your fast freddy connection,
Do you want to take this further?

Farrah day you have ignored what i have said on the whole, well
pretty much the lot, thats ok you do not wish to discuss further.
Do not ignore the points i have made and that includes the
suppression of science if you wish to discuss further. All you are
doing is molding the discussion into what you want by skipping
points made by me.

12

Whatever, Rizla.

And yes, you're right in that I have neither the time nor the
inclination to converse with you any further.

12
Post by: muDped on 2012-02-18, 19:55:46

Quote from: rizla
...
If you can provide proof the lawton device increases LPM over normal
hydrolysis by any usefull amount please do...
...

You may wish to verify the meaning
of "hydrolysis." (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/hydrolysis)

For some reason it is too often confused
with "electrolysis" as the mechanism
whereby Hydrogen and Oxygen are
liberated as the result of electrical current
flow.

12

You may wish to verify the meaning
of "hydrolysis." (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/hydrolysis)

For some reason it is too often confused
with "electrolysis" as the mechanism
whereby Hydrogen and Oxygen are
liberated as the result of electrical current
flow.

Only by people like Rizla who don't have a clue what they are
talking about. ;)

12
Post by: rizla on 2012-02-19, 00:10:05

@dumped

Thats correct i used the wrong word i know the difference it`s just
a bad habit, did spell it correctly on the plus side.

@farrah day

Thats what you do best farrah day, cheap comments to score
points.

I was going to point out that allcanadian told you the electron can
give the appearance of haveing no mass makeing you only 50%
correct with what you said. But you declined his offer of debate to
sort it out and ran away like you always do.

12

Quote from: rizla on 2012-02-18, 04:24:43
...
One example is "wattsup" he posts a theory on the electron haveing no mass,
you come along and give him a verbal slap quoteing mainstream science.
...

Very stupid theory indeed. An electron weights up to 10.57317 Kg
after dinner and the nights of full moon, and its charge is 2,8935
volts. Their mass is compensated by the negative mass of the
protons. The charge is in volt, not in coulomb which is an absurd
invention from scientists: everyone knows that only volts can
electrocute someone, not coulombs. The electron mass is the
result of the moon light that is stored in atoms for 4 millenium
(before, they were much lighter and this explains why it had been
easy to build the egyptian pyramids). This is my "theory" and
nobody can prove that I'm wrong. Don't oppose me mainstream
science, these conventional crackpots with low IQ are unable to
understand the new physics that will open us the realm of free
energy! ;D ;D ;D

12

I was going to point out that allcanadian told you the electron can give the
appearance of haveing no mass makeing you only 50% correct with what you
said. But you declined his offer of debate to sort it out and ran away like you
always do.

If AC fell out of an aeroplane without a parachiute he too would
give the appearance of having no mass - until I hit the ground.
Giving the appearance of having no mass is very different to
actually having no mass. Why don't you jump out of an aeroplane
without a parachute and then tell me if I'm still only 50% correct!

You have me wrong Rizla, I don't run away from interesting
conversations, intelligent arguments or thoughtful debates.
However, in your case, those qualities are clearly lacking so I'm
simply turning my back and walking away from mindless drivel.
But don't feel I've singled you out, there are many like you out
there and I treat you all the same - no favouritism! C.C

12

What about Chet and the Electric Spoon Resonant Test? Aren't we
supposed to have a movie or something?

Chet and his friend are the last hope for making closed-loop
electric-spoon-powered steam turbine electrical generating
stations! ;D

12
Post by: rizla on 2012-02-20, 01:42:28

Wrong farrah day you do walk away and now you have gone back
to your same old cheap put downs to back out.

You reply but say almost nothing. The lawton device, why do you
think that works? Censorship of science why is it twisting facts?
Fast freddy scammers or dis-info? Can you show your claim of
helping improve the standard on this forum or is throwing insults
the only example.

Take a look back at most of your posts, they put people down. You
talk of intelligent conversation and make the claim of being better
than most but the only evidence of this is your text from your field
of research, the rest seems to consist of infantile name calling.

Thats the frustrating thing you just revert to name calling, i can
find little evidence of you doing much else.

@milehigh

chet is a computer virus written by aaron at energetic forums. It
was designed to start really optimistic then turn weird and finally
to find any folder called shit to archive itself in there forever.

12
Post by: rizla on 2012-02-20, 06:14:19

Farrah day when you posted a question on another forum asking
for help on how stan meyers technology works a character called
dankie replied with some very offensive remarks aimed to you,
that quickly ruined your thread.

It clearly upset you.

They were trolls, dankie was a troll. your thread was attacked
becouse of it`s scientific approach at splitting water, it would
attract serious thinkers. If you don`t understand this i will make it
clear.

When dankie said this technology is not for you, he ment just that.

I almost certainly know who dankie is now, i can mail his name to
you, i do not advise this it`s best forgotten.

If you wish to police the standard of science you need to be able to
spot dis-information, there are patterns of behaviour, writeing
styles and personality that can be seen in the different names
used.
You can study devices, claims and the people involved then release
the findings.

By hitting out at anybody you can do as much damage as good,
we don`t need any more trolls.

Now i can elaborate as much as necessary, i suspect it`s best left
there without any insults.

12

...
Take a look back at most of your posts, they put people down.
...

Not enough! I saw some of them continuing to spread their
absurdities in despite well-founded objections. If you like them,
you might kindly babble with them instead of boring more
intelligent people.

12
Post by: rizla on 2012-02-21, 04:04:19

When posting, criticising whats said rather than the person saying
it should be the norm not the other way round or both, exception
of course is when the likes of dis-information is uncovered.

I agree there is nonsense, scammers,dis-info, kids? or whatever,
to unload insults is not really the most intelligent and scientific way
of approaching most.

Take prof savic, i was not sure of this at first and gave it the
benifit of the doubt, a lot of doubt.

I have had time to think about it, i now give it no hope. It is one of
the absurdities.

So what to do? Well to support the heater it will still fail or put it
down till it fails. Whichever is done i feel there is the physic prof
that loses putting money and some faith in this, i don`t know if
anyone else has, the rest have to put up with this dis-info.

12

This thread is beginning to remind me of the Rock-Paper-Scissors
competition.

Each hacker wrote their player then the players competed. The
first several iterations were slow and cumbersome with no
apparent end in sight. (That is the part that this thread reminds
me of). After a few cycles, the games never lasted more than a
couple hundred milliseconds. Then it was all over in a couple of
seconds.

Farrah Day,

Did you write one of these? You should practice your coding style a
bit more. The players have almost no human traits. I wish the
cycle time would increase so we could go back to using the forum
more than the virtual forum members ;D

12

When posting, criticising whats said rather than the person saying it should be
the norm
...

Therefore if you know it, why don't you respect the norm?
Rizla to FD:
"you have ignored what i have said [...] you do not wish to
discuss"

You judge someone on alleged intents that you assign yourself to
him.

I can accept critics, but not from people demanding others to not
make what they make themselves.

12
Post by: Paul-R on 2012-02-28, 12:40:33

If AC fell out of an aeroplane without a parachiute he too would give the
appearance of having no mass - until I hit the ground...
...at which point the difference between mass and weight would
become apparent to him.

Paul-R

12

...at which point the difference between mass and weight would become
apparent to him.

Paul-R

but only if the time for awareness doesn't exceed the time for
deceleration when it smashes on the ground.

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