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Modify Turbojet To Turbofan?

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Thread: Modify Turbojet To Turbofan?
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March 15th, 2010, 04:34 PM
Modify Turbojet To Turbofan?
Would it be possible to convert a small turbojet, say a
Turbomeca Marbore, into a turbofan? Apparently the first
fans were modified turbojets. P&W made kits to convert
one of their jets to a fan.
The GE90 apparently uses carbon fiber blades in the fan
section of the engine. I'm not talking about production
runs. Think single engine personal jet.
Thanks
#1
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BedeFlyer01
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March 15th, 2010, 05:39 PM
Re: Modify Turbojet To Turbofan?
How did you plan to drive the fan?
#2
Lucrum
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March 15th, 2010, 05:47 PM
Re: Modify Turbojet To Turbofan?
With a big, honkin' turbojet?
#3
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bmcj
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Originally Posted by Lucrum
How did you plan to drive the fan?
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March 15th, 2010, 07:22 PM
#4
Re: Modify Turbojet To Turbofan?
Fanjets typically run with two spools, one inside the other.
The inner spool runs on bearings on the inside of the outer
spool, which runs on bearings on the fixed housing. The
outer spool has the compressor and the turbine that drives
the compressor spinning on it. The inner spool has the
power turbine (aft of the high pressure turbine) on one
end and the fan on the other end.
A turbo jet usually only has one spool with the compressor
and turbine on it.
To convert a turbojet to a fanjet, someone would have to
engineer the power turbine at the back and the fan at the
front and the spool and bearings and lubrication and
cooling and figure out how to hollow out the already
existing spool in the turbo jet. Unless it was already
designed for this purpose, that is a pretty tall order. On
the really small turbojets, that is highly unlikely...
Now there have been some turboshaft engines and
turboprop engines that were based on turbojets. In those
cases, the power turbine, any speed reduction gearbox,
propeller shaft, etc are basically grafted onto the back end
of the turbojet, and perhaps the stages would be different
when optimized for running as a turboshaft instead of as a
turbojet. Someone would still have to do the engineering
of all that stuff, but the turbojet engine itself would not
need huge modifications.
I think that Lucrum's comment refers to the fact, that
somehow, you have to get the drive from the power
turbine at the back to the fan at the front.
Billski
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wsimpso1
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March 15th, 2010, 07:27 PM
#5
Re: Modify Turbojet To Turbofan?
Yes it was, since the Turbomeca Marbore he mentioned is
a single shaft design.
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Lucrum
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Originally Posted by wsimpso1
I think that Lucrum's comment refers to the fact,
that somehow, you have to get the drive from the
power turbine at the back to the fan at the front.
Billski
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March 15th, 2010, 07:30 PM
#6
Re: Modify Turbojet To Turbofan?
Attaching a turbine to the back of a turbojet would be fun
indeed. Since you can't run the power takeoff shaft
forward though the compressor shaft, it has to go back to
a gearbox. And that whole area is more than just a little
hot, isn't it?
Dan
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Dan Thomas
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Originally Posted by wsimpso1
Fanjets typically run with two spools, one inside the
other. The inner spool runs on bearings on the inside
of the outer spool, which runs on bearings on the
fixed housing. The outer spool has the compressor
and the turbine that drives the compressor spinning
on it. The inner spool has the power turbine (aft of
the high pressure turbine) on one end and the fan
on the other end.
A turbo jet usually only has one spool with the
compressor and turbine on it.
To convert a turbojet to a fanjet, someone would
have to engineer the power turbine at the back and
the fan at the front and the spool and bearings and
lubrication and cooling and figure out how to hollow
out the already existing spool in the turbo jet. Unless
it was already designed for this purpose, that is a
pretty tall order. On the really small turbojets, that is
highly unlikely...
Now there have been some turboshaft engines and
turboprop engines that were based on turbojets. In
those cases, the power turbine, any speed reduction
gearbox, propeller shaft, etc are basically grafted
onto the back end of the turbojet, and perhaps the
stages would be different when optimized for
running as a turboshaft instead of as a turbojet.
Someone would still have to do the engineering of all
that stuff, but the turbojet engine itself would not
need huge modifications.
I think that Lucrum's comment refers to the fact,
that somehow, you have to get the drive from the
power turbine at the back to the fan at the front.
Billski
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#7
March 15th, 2010, 08:29 PM
Re: Modify Turbojet To Turbofan?
http://www.homebuiltairplanes.com/fo...ucted-fan.html
No gearbox required and it allows flexibility in the layout.
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Starman
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Originally Posted by Lucrum
How did you plan to drive the fan?
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March 15th, 2010, 08:47 PM
Re: Modify Turbojet To Turbofan?
Phh! Good luck with that one. That would be like trying to
build your own airpla... oh wait. -_-
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AnxiousInfusion
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March 16th, 2010, 12:45 PM
Re: Modify Turbojet To Turbofan?
Okay, the Marbore was a bad example. What about
the GE T58? I read more about how P&W modified
an engine to a turbofan by using the fan section
from a larger engine and making a case around it. It
was a good story, basically a P&W rep told Rolls
Royce P&W already had a turbofan, then he went
back to the factory and told them they had to build
one!
Thank you for patiently satisfying my curiousity.
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BedeFlyer01
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March 16th, 2010, 03:01 PM
#10
Re: Modify Turbojet To Turbofan?
Don't a lot of turboprop engines run with the hot section at
the front with the turbine reversed? It would be
unconventional for a turbofan but if the turbine was turned
around you could have a power take off from it without the
complexity of a double internal shaft.
Shannon.
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MadRocketScientist
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March 18th, 2010, 11:32 AM
Re: Modify Turbojet To Turbofan?
It's old technology, but GE took the CJ-610 and stuck on
an aft fan to the low pressure turbine to create the CF-
700. Quite successful in it's day on the Sabre 75 and
Falcon 20
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dhammer
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March 18th, 2010, 01:09 PM
#12
Re: Modify Turbojet To Turbofan?
I was going to suggest the bolt-on fan to the power
turbine, but someone beat me to it.
If I was going to try doing this, I'd get a Lycoming T53
(http://www.aircav.com/huey/T53-13.html) and put a
ducted fan on the front of it. T53s, or so I've heard, are
available second-hand reasonably cheaply, and are used
on some boats in lieu of a diesel engine. There's a shaft
sticking out of the front connected to a free power turbine
at the back of the engine with some reduction gearing,
and the engine has loads of power (1100- 1400 SHP). The
hot section is at the back of the engine, as is the case in
most turboprops and turboshafts (as far as I know, only
the PT6 has the hot section at the front). I'm not familiar
with the T53 (I've worked on other
turboprops/turboshafts, but not this one), but I've got a
library book on my desk with a section on the T53, and it
seems physically possible. Also, Rolls Royce has a
turboprop, turboshaft and a turbofan (AE2100, AE1107
and AE3007) with the same core gas turbine so turning a
turboshaft into a turbofan has been done before.
But...
I don't know what kind of power you'd get out of it or how
well it would work; I don't know if (but don't imagine) the
compressor was designed to suck in air from behind a fan
instead of from outside the aircraft though an inlet
designed to smooth out the airflow (I don't think you'd
have room for much of an inlet inside a DIY turbofan). The
T53 weighs roughly 500lb; factoring inadding a fan and
duct assembly and you're probably looking at a bit more
weight (no clue how much). Plus you need to design and
built everything, do a lot of testing and troubleshooting,
and probably try to convince the FAA or TC to let you fly
this. You're probably not going to be doing bird strike,
blade-off, or icing testing and as rare as some of those
events are you'd have to hope none of those things ever
happen or if they do your engine's going to be okay. You'd
also have to supply your own spare parts for your fan
assembly. You could just steal the fan from a turbofan
engine and mate it to the T53; that might be easier and
would solve a few of those problems. But I think you're
probably better off just buying a FJ33/FJ44 or a PW610F.
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Fluffy
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Last edited by Fluffy; March 18th, 2010 at 10:23 PM. Reason: Added Link to T-
53 website
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March 18th, 2010, 05:05 PM
#13
Re: Modify Turbojet To Turbofan?
Could you expound on this concept a little further. I am
trying to picture it, but cant quite make the leap. Would
the rim driven fan be around the jet engine?
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Unclematt
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Originally Posted by Starman
http://www.homebuiltairplanes.com/fo...ucted-
fan.html
No gearbox required and it allows flexibility in the
layout.
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March 18th, 2010, 05:35 PM
Re: Modify Turbojet To Turbofan?
It's been a long time so I could be wrong but I was
thinking the 20 at least had a lot of problems with that aft
fan engine.
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Lucrum
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Originally Posted by dhammer
It's old technology, but GE took the CJ-610 and stuck
on an aft fan to the low pressure turbine to create
the CF-700. Quite successful in it's day on the Sabre
75 and Falcon 20
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March 18th, 2010, 07:21 PM
#15
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Re: Modify Turbojet To Turbofan?
No, the fan needs to have the jet exhaust blowing
tangentially at the rim of the fan, at it's own little fan
blades. A jet engine facing longitudinally would require a
90 degree turn with some duct work to blow at the rim of
the fan, but it would be easy to bury a jet engine sideways
in the wing or fuselage to power a forward facing fan.
It's a simplification that does away with shafts because the
turbine blades are in a way an extension of the fan blades
and I don't see how it has to give up any efficiency to any
other methods for driving fans ... as long as there are no
bends in the duct work =)
This concept has been used on some fan driven aircraft, I
think for lift fans.
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Originally Posted by Unclematt
Could you expound on this concept a little further. I
am trying to picture it, but cant quite make the leap.
Would the rim driven fan be around the jet engine?
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