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Michael
Sandhya
Vijayant
Nesko K., Orkhan A. and 1 other like this
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sherif
Like Comment (19) November 16, 2011
what is the steps to convert old machines with relays
control to plc and SCADA system control ,
sherif A.
Owner, technotronics
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Michael H.
Project Manager for Systems Development
Before you retrofit an older machine you have to consider many things. Is the mechanical portion
of the machine in good shape and how much rework will be required? Is the structure of the
machine sound? You will have to know how many inputs and outputs are required to get the
machine operational. What are the safety concerns of the machine and how to address them. Do
you need to replace sensors, limit switches,thermocouples, etc. that are your input controls? Do
you want to replace the MMI interface? In what condition is the wiring, conduit, communication
cables? Have you considered buying a packaged retrofit versus doing the work yourself? Do you
know how many manhours this project will take? Do you have the expertise and the resources
available to complete this project? Have you received an outside bid to complete this project to
compare with what your costs will be? I am not trying to discourage you in taking on a project, but
consider all the ramifications of doing an in house project. Will the machine be shipped to Europe?
What certifications for the machine will you need to protect the company from liability?
Sandhya N.
Asst. Engineer at ERDA
Starting with the compatibility of a much efficient and accurate system u may have to change
some of the actuators and sensors to match the potential of PLCs and SCADA...
Vijayant S.
Automation Project Engineer, Searching for job
If you want to upgrade your machine from relay logic to PLC controlled machine :-
1. Select a suitable PLC with sufficent I/O and functionality
2. Break operation process in small operation and make a diagram from where you can make
your PLC logic.
3. Find out all existing I/O and list them add all new I/O you need This will give your I/O count.
4. Make a standard for your I/O all aspects, this will help in PC selection.
After all this you will able to upgrade your machine. For SCADA buy a pakage and you will get
support from the supplier.
Chris C.
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Chris
Sergei
Azelio
Vincent
Bryan
Justin
sherif
Alejandro
President at Specialty Machinery and Equipment, INC. Innovative Problem Solving for
Manufacturing
Unless you have done this in the past I suggest you seek outside assistance and since you are
asking the question I assume you dont have inhouse expertise. Any good automation integrator
can accomplish this. We have converted many machines for our customers and the key is to
make sure the PLC programmer fully understands the operational characteristics of the
machinery. It is best if the machine is pulled from service and to do a complete
rebuild/modification at the same time.
Sergei K.
Electrical/Controls Engineer
First and the last step is - find someone how can do it for you!! ;)
Azelio M.
Owner of Sasegroup & Start-up Lead Engineer @ Santos Engineering
First of All, be sure regarding the functionality of the machine, take note and second step is be
sure regarding all documentations is marked up, otherwise during the new commissioning of the
Control panel , you will find many issues.
Regards
Azelio
Vincent B.
Robotic technologist at GE Aviation
Hello,
with the electric diagram, you should be able to translate relays coils to PLCs outputs and the
part that gives the power to the coil should go to the inputs. Make a list of the sensor, relay
contact, push button these go in the input section, relay, timer, counter, solenoid, these go in the
output section. Then choose a PLC that matches the amount of I/O and the voltage on your
machine(AC, CC). There are many type available, but you should look with local distributor, this
way if you ever need help with something you wont have to call long distance or wait for eternal
answer on your email box...
All thats left is the programming...this is the simplest step as I see it.
If the machine as a complicated sequence then logic diagram come in need...
Bryan D.
Owner at Zircome-Sti Automation Pte Ltd and Zircome Sti Automation Sdn Bhd
what you need to do is calculate the number of input,output,analogue input and analogue output
that you need related to your equipment.All the digital sensors,thermal relay
contacts,levels,switches those goes on the digital inputs. Analogue sensors, temperature probes
those goes on the analogue inputs. All the coil of the relays, contactors,solenoid valves those
goes on the digital outputs. If you are using frequency inverters than most probably you need
have analogue output to control those 0-10 volts or 4 to 20 mA.
You need a good plc with simple communication protocol to communicate with a scada type of
wonderware i suggest a siemens plc
Justin O.
Project Engineer at SILVERTECH ME FZCO
the whole relay panel needs to be replaced with PLC panel. (relay logic will be copied as program
exacly in the same logic). nd you have to consider the cost of it as well as the need of it..
sherif A.
Owner, technotronics
thanks a lot my dear friends
Alejandro V.
Project / Construction Management at DEVCO USA
To be able to convert an older machine to PLC control first identify the signal levels that you will
need to manage in the I/O cards, next prepare a schematic of the connections to the field
elements that will need to be cut into the PLC system, next prepare a PLC with the programm
installed and tested. Finally disconnect the old relay panel and connect the wiring to the pertinent
I/Os and test before placing into service.
Valerio G.
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Valerio
Tim
Bruce
Garry
Roberto
Graydon
Control systems automation engineer
When converting a system is to be considered many aspects. First of all should be made a list of
users, this is necessary because you need to know how many I / O points are required and what
type, then consider the necessary hardware. Finally you have to do an analysis of the operating
logic. Then you have to consider if you need to ensure continuity of operation of the system, in
this case should build a parallel system in which the PLC is installed, it will thus be possible to
develop the software and perform the test by switching the control.
Ciao!
Tim S.
Corporate Strategist and Business Analyst.
Can I ask a simple question? Why? What are you trying to achieve in the retrofit??
Bruce W.
Senior Technologist at Rockwell Automation
@Tim, I agree, that is an important question. What is the size of this relay panel?
Garry I.
Owner, AGI Automation Ltd
As Tim states, first decide if this is really necessary. It is still pretty easy to justify the expenditure
for this type of conversion. Trouble-shooting is simplified, as well as future control changes (easier
to change logic than it is to change wires etc).
When we do these types of conversions for our customers, a succesful upgrade is always based
on first documenting the process to define the existing functionality of the machine. Analyze the
relay panel drawings (hopefully they exist) to produce a correct functional description of the
machine operation, and the IO required. This will require ensuring the drawings are up to date
with the system (as-building). If the drawings dont exist, or are out of date, then they should be
created, as accurately as possible. Do NOT proceed until this process is complete. Every contact /
coil and end device needs to be analyzed and documented, with a solid IO listing produced,
identifying which discrete points may be converted to analog, etc. Note that some IO may fall off,
due to the ability to use communications to other interested processes (i.e. Facility DCS, or other
PLC systems).
On completion of the system analysis, new system development can then be approached as any
new system would be. Dont piece meal the conversion. Do it all at once. It will be cheaper and
more reliable than doing piece by piece.
It may also be possible, if the system is a turbine or some other packaged machine, to purchase
an existing system, and essentially mate up the existing wiring to a new vendor panel. Be wary of
this though, in my experience, reusing existing wiring can sometimes be more expensive than re-
wiring the system field devices. It all depends on the state of the existing machine, and what IO
devices may need to be changed (Typically relay systems would of course use discrete devices. It
may make sense to convert things to analog inputs as required).
Also, if you select an external firm for assistance, make sure they follow the facility standards
already in place. Dont allow them to use their prefered platform for replacement because that is
what they know, that is different from your already installed platform base.
Sorry if I repeated any of the above valued comments.
Cheers
Roberto W.
QCS Sales Manager: Latin America
Michael Howell gave you a good idea of all involvements you will have to consider, but in order to
cover waht I consider a very important point, after you took the decision to step into such a
project, I would suggest you to make a survey of the PLC and SCADA suppliers and installations
you have around your region. Enphasize on what kind of technical and service back-up they can
supply and the most important: references they have. Dont believe in "reference lists" but talk to
users and listen to what they can tell you about their experience. Remeber: once you decided,
probably there will be no way back. Be carefull and run safe.
Graydon T.
Director Electrical Engineering at Corsair Design
Determine your digital radio communication protocol. Then select matching radios. Then build
your ladder logic in your plc or rtu. Finally benchtest your complete system. I recommend the
worlwide de facto com wireless protocol which is modbus. The function of your relay logic can be
determined from the relay drawings then easily converted to ladder logic. I did this years ago
using modicon plcs. For more rugged oudoor applications use scadapacks c/w builtin
spreadspectrum radios.
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Julian
Aleksandr
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Julian S.
Process Control Engineer / Automation Engineer / Control & Instrumentation (I&C)
Engineer / Control Systems Engineer
In the theory is quite simple project.
STEP 1: Just take the wiring diagrams from your relay control panel and study them in front of the
relay control panels to be substituted. Warning 1: typically the relay panles will be old and will
have modifications, so take your documentation to the field (in front of the panel) and make an as-
built.
Warning 2: It is very common that the relay panels dont have only relays, but also some other
devices or instruments (such us tachometers, level indicators, stand-alone PID controllers...etc).
Identify these elements and take a decision about what to do with them: some of them can be
substituted by the corresponding SW function in the PLC, some others can be upgrade to "more
modern" devices. You should also consider to substitute some of the old digital instruments in the
field to 4-20mA transmitters, with AI to the PLC for example.
Warning 2: Consider the area clasification, as this has an inpact in the instrumentation you need
(do you need fail-safe PLC I/O cards?), and also the required availability for your system (do you
need redundant PLC?)
STEP 2: Once you understand very well the "wired logic" (relay control panel) to be substitited by
"programmed logic" (PLC), make your signal list. With this you can define the I/O needs (how
many AIs, DIs, AOs, DOs will be required in your PLC).
Warning 3: One important decision is if you are going to reuse the exisiting panel (to install the
new PLC in it) or to install a brand new PLC panel. My recommendation; install a new panel
whenever it is possible (just remove the old one and istall the new one). Important: consider the
design of the terminal strips so you can reuse the old cabling comming from the field.
STEP 3: With the logics, plus the I/O list, plus the functional description (written description od the
functionality of the logic) use a good system integrator to provide the new PLC, build the new
panel (or upgrade the existing one), program and test the PLC...etc (unless you dont have budget
for that and you need to do it by yourslef).
With regards to the SCADA, this is symple as you just need to reproduce the existing interface
(alarms, switches, pushbuttons...etc), obviously you can now enhance the interface with the
operator.
With regards to the PLC brand, the more symple is to use the one you better know (if you are
happy with it).
STEP 4: Plan very well the commissioning and start-up. Do you need to do it with the plant
running? If so, this planification will require big part of the time of the project, if not, then you will
not have many problems in this stage.
For sure if you do this type of revamping projects you are goint to learn a lot.
Good look and dont hesitate to ask me any doubt as I have upgrade many of these systems.
Aleksandr M.
Engineer at Intelligrated - Alvey Systems
There are several ways to do this.
First, if machine still is in operation monitor machine for several days to understand sequence of
operations, safety requirements and possible hazard. It is always good idea to evaluate
mechanical condition. You can use original relay logic schematics, however, PLC control offers
better flexibility and most of likely will be slightly different. Since you are upgrading controls you
may consider upgrading I/O, and safety circuit to meet todays standards.
Create bill of material, panel layout and new electrical drawings, build new panel, and test
everything you can test before cutting into the system.
Install, test and commission upgrade monitor performance and optimize initial logic based on
production performance.
Good luck.
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