Interview With Professor Robert Faurisson

"No documents, no history".

Interview with Professor Robert Faurisson at the Guest House of the Ministry of Foreign ffairs of the
Is!amic Re"ub!ic of Iran
#ehran, $ecember %&, '(()
Introduction by Michael A. Hofman
In honor of World War II revisionist historian Dr. Robert Faurisson's 79th birthday,
January 25, 200, !e are "ublishin# this intervie! $ondu$ted in %ehran, De$e&ber '(,
200) by a *er&an $iti+en, i&&ediately after Iran's revisionist $onferen$e had
$on$luded.
In s"ite of so&e bitter dis"utes !e have had in the "ast !ith Dr. Faurisson ,any
friendshi" !hi$h $annot !eather su$h dis"utes it not a true friendshi"-, and the fa$t that
!e $ontinue to disa#ree !ith so&e of his ideas and $on$lusions, Robert Faurisson is
undoubtedly one of the bravest &en it has been our "rivile#e to .no!.
%he sa$rifi$es he has &ade, both in his $areer as a university "rofessor, and in his
"ersonal life, have been so enor&ous they !ould have driven a lesser &an to &adness
or re$antation and surrender. In addition to losin# his "rofessorshi" and bein# saddled
!ith hu#e $ourt fines, he has been re"eatedly "hysi$ally assaulted, $ul&inatin# in a
brutal atta$. in '99 that re/uired his hos"itali+ation.
Robert !ould not !ant to be re#arded as a &artyr, but the fa$t is, he is indeed a
&artyr to freedo& of s"ee$h and in/uiry. 0obel "ri+es #o to obs$ure $a&"ai#ners for
hu&an ri#hts in %hird World $ountries, !hile under the very nose of the 0obel
$o&&ittee is Faurisson of Fran$e. 1is $oura#eous $a&"ai#n and the ri#hts of
revisionists, &ean nothin# to the West that other!ise is so "o&"ous in its &orali+in#
le$tures to the 2usli& !orld, on the need for 3de&o$ra$y and freedo& of e4"ression.3
What they &ean by that slo#an is freedo& for the do&inion of 5ionis&, Judais& and its
offshoot reli#ion for #entiles, 1olo$austianity, and 6ail 7 or !orse 7 for all !ho dissent.
Dr. Faurisson is $urrently bein# "rose$uted by the #overn&ent of Fran$e for
havin# s"o.en at the %ehran revisionist $onferen$e. 1e has been re"eatedly "rose$uted
and fined in the "ast for his revisionist boo.s and essays. 2ean!hile, *er&ar Rudolf,
8rnst 5undel, *eor#es %hiel, Wolf#an# Frohli$h and in$redibly, 9ylvia 9tol+, 2r.
5undel's defense attorney, are all either servin# "rison ter&s or have been senten$ed to
"rison in 8uro"e for blas"he&in# the 1oly :eo"le's 1oly ;us$h!it+ *as <ha&ber
reli$. ;ttorney 9tol+'s 3$ri&e3 !as offerin# too vi#orous a defense of 5undel durin# his
trial in *er&any= %his is beyond absurd. 8ven >e!is <arrol and his ;li$e !ould be lost
in this ?af.aes/ue ni#ht&are !orld, !herein the su""osedly oh7so $ool a#nosti$s of
hi", liberated 8uro"e, !ho have $ast off *od, fall "rostrate in ab6e$t obeisan$e to the
false #ods of Judais& and 5ionis&.
@ @ @
Hello Professor Faurisson, and thank you for granting me this interview.
1
He!!o. It*s I who than+ you for your wi!!ingness to "ut ,uestions.
Professor, may I ask what your reasons were for deciding to take part in this conference in Tehran on
the Holocaust on December th and !th, !""#$
It*s because I +now of no other
country, no "!ace where a
conference on this sub-ect cou!d
we!come me. .ven in the /nited
0tates the ho!ding of such a
conference wou!d be ris+y1 to begin
with, u"on arriva! on merican
territory any foreign revisionist cou!d
we!! find himse!f being sent straight
bac+ to where he*d come from. In
France, any simi!ar gathering wou!d
be out of the ,uestion. I don*t see a
sing!e .uro"ean country that wou!d
to!erate a "ub!ic conference or
debate on the 2Ho!ocaust3. In
Germany, your country, the
"rohibition of any form of revisionism
is draconian. 4anada, ustra!ia and
New 5ea!and are merci!ess.
Furthermore, it may be that in other
"arts of the wor!d some countries are indifferent to the matter. #hus it was an a!together une6"ected
bit of !uc+ that Iran shou!d offer to host an internationa! seminar on the 2Ho!ocaust3 that, for once,
wou!d be o"en to a!! comers. It was not actua!!y a revisionist conference but, as indicated by the tit!e
72Review of the Ho!ocaust8 G!oba! 9ision3:, a new !oo+ at the 2Ho!ocaust3 from a com"rehensive
view"oint and not a biased or fragmentary one. I didn*t thin+ this cou!d come about in my !ifetime.
%hat goal have you been looking to achieve in coming here$
I want to ma+e "ub!ic what the mainstream media of the ;estern wor!d stubborn!y concea!. ;hen
those media s"ea+ of revisionists, it*s to insu!t us or ascribe to us ideas that we*ve never e6"ressed.
For e6am"!e, they readi!y assert that the revisionists are "eo"!e who c!aim the German concentration
cam"s never e6isted. #hat*s "utting sheer nonsense in our mouths. /nha""i!y the nonsensica!
assertion, amongst the French in any case, is wides"read. <n this score, the French in genera! have
the idea that the revisionists are !unatics who go so far as to deny the obvious and this is why, coining
a barbarism, they ca!! us 2n=gationnistes3 72denia!ists3:.
Have you the impression, at the end of this gathering, that you&ve achieved your goal$
In "art. #he wor!d has been ab!e to note that we e6ist and that we can conduct ourse!ves "eaceab!y
and courteous!y with "eo"!e who don*t share our convictions. #ime was wanting for any rea! debate.
nd then I su""ose the media wi!! re!ate virtua!!y nothing of the content of our "a"ers. #hey*!! +ee"
si!ent about our arguments and discoveries. #o obtain a rea! debate we*!! need a new conference, on
condition that our o""onents don*t shy away from ta+ing "art. I must say that, for an instant, I was ab!e
to have the beginnings of a "ub!ic confrontation with a "rofessor who was hosti!e to revisionism, and
that this confrontation turned dramatica!!y to our advantage. I*!! te!! you about it a bit !ater on, if you !i+e.
'ost gladly.
#here*ve been, above a!!, the echoes made by this conference throughout the wor!d. It has "rovo+ed
vehement "rotests, starting yesterday in ;ashington with a statement by ;hite House s"o+esman
0ean Mc4ormac+ denouncing an Iranian regime that 2"erverse!y see+s to ca!! the historica! fact of
those >Na?i@ atrocities into ,uestion and "rovide a "!atform for hatred3. #hen it was in Arasi!ia that a
2
Professor $r. Robert Faurisson, s"ea+ing at the first free, state
organised, ho!oaust conference in the wor!d.
#eheran, $ec. %'., '(()
government had its say in the matter with an officia! "rotest. #hen in .ng!and. #hen, at the /N, Bofi
nnan gave tongue. #he 9atican as we!!. ccording to a!! these authorities, there are no grounds for
as+ing onese!f ,uestions about the 2Ho!ocaust3 of the Cews. #he 2Ho!ocaust3 too+ "!ace and that*s that.
Aut I*ve "romised you that e6am"!e of the beginnings of a "ub!ic confrontation. Here it is. #hat match
of yesterday "itted me against an Iranian "rofessor from 0hira? /niversity, who a!so teaches at the
/niversity of the 0tate of ;ashington 7/0:1 his name is Gho!am 9atandoust. t one "oint in his
"resentation he dared to say that the 2Ho!ocaust3 was 2fu!!y documented3, that is, who!!y confirmed by
va!id documentation. #hen, after his ta!+, when the audience was ab!e to "ut ,uestions, I as+ed this
"rofessor to name me a document, and I insisted on the fact that I didn*t care to hear about a set of
documents1 I wanted -ust one. He started answering by saying how 4hurchi!!, in his memoirs, had
denounced the Na?i atrocities. I "ointed out that never had 4hurchi!! mentioned the 2gas chambers3
and that such was the case as we!! with .isenhower, de Gau!!e and others of their stature. I reminded
him that what I was waiting for was the designation of a document. I had him note that ;inston
4hurchi!!, in the remar+s a!!uded to, was a "o!itician e6"ressing his sentiments. However, I was not
!oo+ing to +now anyone*s sentiments, be they even those of a "ersona!ity !i+e 4hurchi!!. t that "oint,
the Iranian "rofessor be!ieved he*d come u" with another argument. He to!d me it wou!d be enough to
accom"any him to the merican Nationa! rchives, where I shou!d find documents. #his wasn*t an
answer since, again, I was demanding to hear of but one document. Cust then the situation reminded me
of the story of the ang!er and the big fish. n ang!er boasts of recent!y ma+ing an e6traordinary hau!, a
tru!y miracu!ous catch, and, when I as+ to see the fish, retorts8 2How*s thatD re you ca!!ing my word
into doubtD If you*re a doubting #homas and won*t grant me your trust, I can show you the "!ace where I
caught that fish.3 <bvious!y my re"!y wi!! be that the "!ace doesn*t interest me8 the fish does. Eet him
show me itF #hus, 20how me or draw me a Na?i gas chamberF3 #hat*s what I*ve been as+ing for ages.
I to!d this "rofessor that I was fami!iar with those Nationa! rchives. I*d even consu!ted them at three
different "!aces8 in ;ashington "ro"er, then, not far from there, in 0uit!and and at the o"u!ent insta!!ation
of 4o!!ege Par+. In short, I was getting no answer to my re,uest. #he man made three more vague
attem"ts, a!! e,ua!!y futi!e, and "art of the audience, noticing how decided!y unab!e he was to res"ond,
interru"ted the verba! -ousting with !aughter and a""!ause. #his morning I had the occasion to meet
him. I found much humb!er than yesterday and he e6hibited a !ive!y curiosity about an argument that
he seemed to be -ust discovering. ;e e6changed addresses and "erha"s our discussion wi!! continue.
I a!so had two brief ta!+s in "rivate with one of the si6 antiG5ionist rabbis who*d come to ta+e "art in the
"roceedings8 he was from Aritain and a""eared sur"rised but not shoc+ed by the findings of revisionist
research. Fina!!y, I had a short and cordia! e6change with an ustrian chief rabbi.
It seems that another "artici"ant, 9i+tor NadeinGRayevs+y of the Russian cademy of 0ciences*
Institute of ;or!d .conomy and Internationa! Re!ations, said at some "oint8 2Faurisson demands
documents, but some very im"ortant events have occurred which haven*t !eft any documents. In these
cases, no document can be "roduced.3 I*d !i+e to +now what these 2very im"ortant events3 can be to
which no document attestsF
I think he was talking about the (hmer )ouge.
Perha"s. Aut then, I*m very sorryF ;e "ossess a !arge number of documents or a!!eged documents on
the sub-ect. I*!! reca!! here the meaning of the term 2document3. In genera!, a document is something
written, but it may a!so be a materia! ob-ect. 2$ocument3 comes from a Eatin verb signifying 2that which
te!!s, which teaches you something3. +nife on a tab!e, a chair, a room, a bui!ding can a!! have the
va!ue of a document. It is a!together norma! that, for e6am"!e, a great mind such as Fuste! de
4ou!anges 7%H&(G%HHI:, who, for us French, is the founder of scientific history, shou!d have ado"ted a
motto !i+e 2No documents, no history3.
I*ve -ust given you the e6am"!e of two s"ea+ers who dis"uted what the revisionists have conc!uded
after com"!eting their research wor+. I insist on this. Peo"!e are ,uic+ to ca!! us 2n=gateurs3 7at !east
the word is French: or 2n=gationnistes3 7a !a"se into barbarism:. #hese two words mean that
revisionists are "ersons who deny obvious facts. #hey wou!d seem, in a way, to be ins"ired by the
3
$evi!. s in Goethe*s "hrase, we revisionists wou!d be "artisans of 2the s"irit that ever denies3,
wou!dn*t weD In rea!ity, we deny nothing at a!!1 sim"!y, after com"!eting our research wor+, we
cha!!enge certain affirmations and come forth with our own findings. Ga!i!eo 2denied3 nothing but, at
the end of his !abours, he stated that a certain idea, genera!!y admitted, was wrong and that another
idea was right.
*an you sum up the substance of your own contribution to the conference$
My ta!+ was on 2the victories of revisionism3, in other words the concessions that the antirevisionists
have over the years been forced to ma+e to us. I recommend that "eo"!e consu!t the te6t itse!f, which I
entit!ed sim"!y 2#he 9ictories of Revisionism3 and in which I "rovide a se!ection of twenty instances of
such victories. #hey run from %IJ( to '((K, and some of them are ,uite dramatic. /nfortunate!y the
genera! "ub!ic +now nothing of it a!! because we have no access to the media.
+n e,ample, if you please, of these victories$
I cou!d cite the case of CeanG4!aude Pressac. For years, that "rot=g= of the B!arsfe!d cou"!e had
"resumed to state he*d discovered "roof of the 2Na?i gas chambers*3 e6istence. boo+ of his, in %II&G
%IIK, was !aden with "raise throughout the big media. In %IIK I re"!ied with a boo+!et that earned me
new crimina! "roceedings. Ha""i!y I got Pressac sub"oenaed to a""ear at the tria!. #his was in May
%IIJ, in Paris. His co!!a"se under e6amination was s"ectacu!ar. He never got bac+ u" again. #o her
credit, 9a!=rie Igounet, a French historian hosti!e to revisionism, re"roduced in her '((( boo+ Histoire
du n=gationnisme en France a sort of act of surrender signed by Pressac. #he !atter, in effect, had
ended u" admitting that the dossier on the German concentration cam"s was 2rotten3 L his word, that
L with too many !ies. He even added that a definitive!y 2rotten3 dossier had been got u" around
wartime suffering that was a!! too rea! and L in his own "hrase L that dossier was 2bound for the
rubbish bins of history3.
-urprising. %hat became of Pressac$
His Cewish friends, of course, disowned him. He died in '((&, aged JI. #he media*s si!ence was tota!.
Pressac is one of the host of "eo"!e who have "roved unab!e to ta+e u" the cha!!enge I !aunched bac+
in the %IM(s. t that time I*d demonstrated how the case for the e6istence of the a!!eged Na?i gas
chambers ran into some radica! im"ossibi!ities. #he Eeuchter Re"ort and the Rudo!f Re"ort, not to
mention a few other re"orts or views e6"ressed by men of science, subse,uent!y confirmed my
demonstration.
Here, in Tehran, you began your talk with a word of warning about the photographs said to be of /a0i
atrocities. %hy$
Aecause "eo"!e*s minds are stee"ed in them. In the business of !ying "ro"aganda nothing*s more
sim"!e and effective than the use of "hotogra"hs. Nou don*t even need any com"!icated montages. It*s
enough to show images of the sic+, the dying or the dead and, in re!ation to these, s"ea+ of the +i!!ed,
the murdered or the s!aughtered. <rdinary decent fo!+ wi!! be ta+en in. #hey*!! fee! revu!sion,
indignation, anger. #hey*!! no !onger see what*s in front of them 7the dead: but on!y what*s been "ut
into their minds 7the +i!!ed:. #hey*!! become fi6ated on it. #hey won*t ta+e time to thin+ things over. In
the area of fa!se massacres the "rocedure stays unchanged. #he a!!eged massacres at uschwit? are,
from this "oint of view, com"arab!e, re!ative!y s"ea+ing, to a!! the a!!eged massacres that may be
convenient!y b!amed on the defeated side of any conf!ict, be it at ndersonvi!!e 7a!!eged e6termination
cam" of the merican 4ivi! ;ar:, #imosoara 7Romania: or Buwait 4ity. 4or"ses of women and
chi!dren wi!! do the tric+ es"ecia!!y we!!.
It*s the "rocedure that, in %IKJ, was resorted to by the mericans and the Aritish, on the one hand,
and by the 0oviets on the other hand. #eams of "hotogra"hers or cameramen enter such or such
German cam" at the moment of its !iberation. #he first ste" is to have everything "hotogra"hed or
fi!med. #he second is to set aside for !ater use, after se!ection, on!y the most "itifu! or revo!ting images,
notab!y from the hos"ita! barrac+s or their vicinity1 "ains wi!! "articu!ar!y have been ta+en to get
images of the ty"husGsufferers, veritab!e wa!+ing s+e!etons. #he third ste" is to "re"are commentary
that wi!! !ead the "ub!ic to be!ieve the German commandants and guards had "ur"ose!y reduced those
4
"oor wretches to such a state, as they were ,uite sim"!y carrying out a "o!icy of "hysica! e6termination
of the detainees. .6ce"tions aside, the "hotogra"hs of some very !arge grou"s of hea!thyG!oo+ing
inmates, -ubi!ant at being freed, wi!! be hidden away. It wi!! not be revea!ed that, in these cam"s, there
cou!d we!! e6ist for the benefit or use of the inmates, as was the case at uschwit?, vast +itchens and
a!! sorts of sanitary, medica!, denta! or surgica! faci!ities, ba+eries, "ost offices, wor+sho"s, "!aces for
artistic or musica! recreation whose mere "resence renders im"!ausib!e, at the !east, the e6istence of
any intent whatsoever on the "art of the Germans to e6terminate those inmates. <n the contrary, with
the "ro"agandists, a sca!"e! wi!! fraudu!ent!y be shown as "roof that "eo"!e were +i!!ed or tortured1 a
disinfection gas chamber wi!! become "roof that "eo"!e, and not vermin, were gassed1 a can of
5y+!onGA, a disinfection or antiGinfestation substance 7.ntseuchung, .ntwesung: that was, according!y,
used to "reserve !ives against certain dead!y diseases or e"idemics, wi!! become "roof that the
Germans em"!oyed it to su""ress human !ife. #he rea! horrors of a!! those cam"s were the
overcrowding, the c!ose ,uarters and the vio!ence incidenta! to detention in such circumstances 72men
are !i+e a""!es8 the more they*re hea"ed on to" of each other, the more they rot3:, the "rison vio!ence,
the hunger, the harsh weather, the diseases, the e"idemics. Revisionist author and activist Pau!
Rassinier to!d of a!! this very we!! indeed. #hus, at times, many inmates were going through he!!.
1ou brought up, in particular, the 2ritish propaganda about 2ergen32elsen4
Nes. ;inston 4hurchi!!*s com"atriots achieved ,uite some feat there. It*s what I ca!! the 2AergenG
Ae!sen bu!!do?er -ob3. In "ri! %IKJ, that cam", overcrowded, ravaged by e"idemics coming from the
.ast, famished, de"rived of water in recent days due to the ng!oGmerican bombing raids, had
become a veritab!e den of infection. For this reason the Germans sent out a de!egation to
Montgomery*s a""roaching troo"s to warn them of the state of things there 7and "robab!y of the ris+s
for everyone, inc!uding the civi!ian "o"u!ation, shou!d the internees a!! be immediate!y re!eased without
any screening:. #he Aritish agreed to coo"erate with the ;ehrmacht, but not with the 00, in order to
attem"t to remedy the situation. #hen they saw fit to o"en the numerous common graves, count the
bodies and fina!!y, "i!e those bodies into great, dee" ditches. #o "ush a!! the cor"ses towards the
ditches they used a bu!!do?er. In a fi!m shot on site we are shown the bu!!do?er in action. se!ection of
these images has been "assed on to "osterity, notab!y than+s to the documentary 7documendaciaryD:
Night and Fog 7%IJJ:. Mi!!ions of viewers have be!ieved that here they*ve seen "roof of the Germans*
+i!!ing their ca"tives, day after day, on an industria! sca!e. 9ery rare indeed must be those who*ve been
ab!e to ma+e out that the bu!!do?er driver is a Aritish so!dier and not a German so!dier. In %IMH a boo+
"ub!ished in 0outh frica with the aim of thwarting any revision of the 2Ho!ocaust3 "resented a sti!!
"hoto of the bu!!do?er and the bodies but not without 2cutting off3 the driver*s head8 the obvious intent
was to have us be!ieve the driver was German.
Moreover, with time, in the minds of some, amongst whom Maurice $ruon of the cad=mie franOaise,
2that3 bu!!do?er, in the singu!ar, has, of course, become 2those3 bu!!do?ers. <ne cou!d go on and on
!isting the very crudest "rocedures of this "ro"aganda rooted in atrocity stories. #hus it is that we*re
cunning!y shown "i!es of shoes and eyeg!asses or hea"s of hair as if they were evidence that the
"eo"!e they came from were gassed1 here the "ro"agandists are sure to avoid reminding us that, in a
.uro"e sub-ected to b!oc+ade and reduced to genera! "enury, nothing was thrown away8 everything
was recovered and recyc!ed, inc!uding hair, which served a "articu!ar "ur"ose in the te6ti!e industry.
#here were count!ess wor+sho"s recyc!ing !eather, g!ass, meta! or wood, both in the cam"s and in the
towns and vi!!ages. #he 2suitcase -ob3 is a!so worth noting. very we!!G+nown "hotogra"h shows us, at
uschwit?, suitcases carefu!!y stac+ed and "resented as the "ieces of !uggage on which each doomed
owner had ta+en the troub!e to write his or her name and address before being sent to the gas
chamber. However, a c!ose !oo+ shows that the names and addresses are a!! written in the same hand
and with the same white substance. 4onse,uent!y, here it is a ,uestion, in rea!ity, of a tas+ "erformed
at the entrance of every detention centre8 new "risoners* be!ongings are tagged and registered by the
"rison c!er+s. #hus had Marce! A!ochG$assau!t, !ong after the war, been ab!e to receive from Germany
the wa!!et confiscated from him u"on entry at Auchenwa!d. <ne evening he cou!d be seen, on French
te!evision, e6hibiting that wa!!et, o"ening it and ta+ing out the fourG!eaf c!over that was in it at his arriva!
in the cam". #hat said, there*s no doubt the German authorities must have drawn from the vast stores
5
and confiscated effects to distribute some of them to the civi!ian "o"u!ation ravaged by the bombings
and de"rived of everything.
%asn&t it at 2ergen32elsen that +nne Frank and her sister 'argot died$
Nes, in !ate February or ear!y March of %IKJ. #hey died of ty"hus. 0ti!! !ong after the war the officia!
truth had it that that they*d been gassed at uschwit?, a cam" where they effective!y s"ent some time
before their transfer to AergenGAe!sen. #heir fate ma+es them deserving of "ity. Aut a good dea! more
"itiab!e sti!! was the fate of the German civi!ian "o"u!ations +i!!ed or burned a!ive by the ng!oG
merican bomber s,uadrons. German man had the idea, after the war, to consu!t a boo+ with the
register of those +i!!ed in the bombing of the city of ;Pr?burg in the night of March 'K, %IKJ a!one1 in
that !ist of more than J,((( he noted, I thin+, %'H women or gir!s bearing the 4hristian name nne or a
c!ose!y associated one. #here*s hard!y much ta!+ of those women or gir!s systematica!!y +i!!ed so!e!y
for being German, is thereD
Do you think that the /ational -ocialist regime committed crimes against the 5uropean 6ews$
#hat regime did not "ursue, with regard to the Cews, any crimina! "o!icy. #hat said, some crimes were
indeed committed, es"ecia!!y in wartime, and they were what are genera!!y ca!!ed 2e6cesses3. 4rimes
of this +ind were either against Cews as individua!s or against Cews ta+en in grou"s, for instance, in
the course of a mi!itary o"eration or indeed during re"risa!s. 0ti!!, if one !oo+s c!ose!y, nothing shou!d
distinguish those crimes from the odious acts that the victors "er"etrated against, for e6am"!e,
Germans or Ca"anese. I am now going to insist on a fact that*s im"ortant and that even the revisionists
don*t e6"!oit enough. ;e have "roof, we*ve had it ever since the Nuremberg tria!, that so!diers, officers
and functionaries, tried by the mi!itary tribuna!s or courts martia! of the #hird Reich, were, during the
war, sentenced to death and e6ecuted for the murder of a sing!e Cewish man or woman. <ne day in
the /+rainian town of Marin+a, the mayor, who ha""ened to be a 29o!+sdeutscher3, an ethnic German,
and who had been a""ointed mayor "robab!y because he s"o+e German, +i!!ed a !oca! Cewess.
Arought before a mi!itary tribuna!, he was condemned to death and shot. I*!! come bac+ to his case.
;e have the e6am"!e of a young German !ieutenant in Auda"est who, u"on entering a Cewish
woman*s house with his men, saw a radio set L forbidden to Cews L and wanted to ta+e it away,
a!ong with some -ewe!!ery. ;ith the woman threatening to go to the "o!ice, he ended u" +i!!ing her.
4ourtGmartia!!ed, he was sentenced to death and e6ecuted. s for the so!diers who*d accom"anied
him, they were given heavy "rison terms.
%ere they from the %ehrmacht or the --$
#hey were from an airGdefence unit. Aut, you +now, this distinction made between the ;ehrmacht and
the 00 is va!id in certain cases and not at a!! so in others. For e6am"!e, when in mi!itary action, they
were on the same footing. Aut anyhow, if there had e6isted any order whatsoever to +i!! a!! the Cews
sim"!y because they were Cews, the Reich authorities wou!dn*t have gone and shot someone who,
breeching disci"!ine, had +i!!ed a Cew or a Cewess.
+ccording to you, are these few e,amples sufficient evidence for one to say that the whole
%ehrmacht and the whole -- conducted themselves in such a manner$
4an a German order to +i!! the Cews L and I am saying to +i!! L have e6istedD It*s ru!ed out if I can,
as I*m doing here, "resent you with even -ust a sing!e case of a German mi!itary tribuna! trying and
condemning to death a sing!e "erson, then having that "erson e6ecuted for the murder of a sing!e
Cew. I haven*t been s"ea+ing of 2sufficient evidence3 but of evidence. "iece of evidence is an
e!ement that one may ta+e into consideration in order, at the end of "roceedings, to hand down a
decision. #he -udge has before him a set of evidence or testimonies and he draws his conc!usions
therefrom. Eet*s begin at the beginning, that is with cases !i+e those I*ve brought u" here or with the
one, which comes to mind -ust now, of a Euftwaffe man who, in southern France, was sentenced to
death for 2e6cesses3 against a Cewish woman.
I "ersona!!y e6"erienced the German occu"ation. In %I&I I was ten years o!d and in %IKJ, when the
Germans !eft France, I was fifteen.
6
%here did you live$
First, u" unti! Cu!y %IK&, in Marsei!!e, then in Paris. Never ever cou!d someone, catching sight of a
Cew, have "ic+ed u" a wea"on and +i!!ed him with im"unity. #he conse,uences for the murderer wou!d
have been e6treme!y grave.
It so ha""ens that, since %IJM, I*ve !ived in 9ichy. <ne night in ugust %IK% a !itt!e bomb went off in
front of the gate of the synagogue, without in-uring anyone. #he cu!"rits were found the ne6t day8 they
were a certain number of young $oriotistes, French su""orters of co!!aboration with Germany in the
fight against 2CudeoGAo!shevism3. #hey were ,uic+!y tried and convicted. I*ve found the te6t of the
court decision. nd, than+s to someone who, during the war, was in the "o!ice, I*ve !earnt that one of
the young "artici"ants in the 2attac+3, a 2"u"i!!e de !a nation3, that is, the son of a serviceman who died
in the First ;or!d ;ar, was so bad!y beaten inside 9ichy "o!ice station that he subse,uent!y died.
Never during the entire war cou!d a Frenchman have a!!owed himse!f to stri+e a Cew in the street.
Cew as such was of course considered by the 0tate as a "otentia!!y dangerous citi?en. He was !iving
under a sort of "robation. He might have good reason to +ee" on his guard. His movements and rights
were sub-ect to severe restrictions, but there was no !ac+ of Cews who, a!! during the German
occu"ation, continued to go about their business in "!ain view of everyone, even running their sho"s
or "racticing their trades. 0ti!! in 9ichy, Marsha!! and Mrs P=tain*s regu!ar chemist was a Cew by the
name of Maurice Aenhamou, and the +osher butcher*s in the rue Aardiau6 seems to have stayed o"en
throughout the <ccu"ation. In May %IKK in Eyon an merican bombing raid !eft a number of "eo"!e
dead. mongst the services he!d for these victims was an ecumenica! ceremony !ed by the 4ardina!G
rchbisho", with an imam and a rabbi by his side. Aut this does not, of course, cance! out the fact that
in 9ichy, Eyon and in a!! the rest of the country the Cews cou!d e6"erience de"ortation, and either
return or not return afterwards.
Here you&re speaking of France$
Nes, of France under the <ccu"ation.
+nd in the 5ast, do you think things were the same$
If you have any s"ecific cases, do "resent them. Nou*re German. I shou!d readi!y invite any German to
read an e6traordinary document on the dayGtoGday !ife, during the who!e war, of certain Cews in the
very heart of the #hird Reich. It*s the memoirs of 9ictor B!em"erer. I "ossess a!! three versions8
German, French and .ng!ish. I !i+e to com"are the different versions of a boo+. In the case at hand,
the most interesting version is the French one1 instead of sto""ing at Cune %IKJ, it continues on to
$ecember of that year and contains a !etter of Canuary %IKM in which the author, ,uite obvious!y under
the inf!uence of the "ro"aganda that had been about since the war*s end, "i!es u" !ies and
e6aggerations on what he*d rea!!y !ived through and which he*d so accurate!y described, day after day,
in his memoirs "ro"er.
9ictor B!em"erer, a $resden Cew, is married to an ryan woman. 9ery antiGNa?i, he recounts his
torments. I*!! te!! you the summit of those torments8 being Cewish, he had to wear the Cewish star in
"ub!ic and he did a grand tota! of eight days in "rison, in Cune %IK%, for having bro+en the 4ivi!
$efence ru!es after curfew. He s"ent the eight days in the ce!!s of $resden "o!ice head,uarters,
where, he te!!s us, he was treated ,uite correct!y. In his boo+ he constant!y stresses how the Germans
he*s met on the tram, in the street, at the grocer*s, far indeed from i!!Gtreating him or coming across
antagonistic, have by and !arge shown themse!ves to be considerate and he!"fu!. 9oge! the grocer
+ee"s coffee, a "recious commodity at the time, aside for him. 4ivi! servants are agreeab!e and "o!ite.
2PassersGby sym"athised with the star bearers3. He has severa! 2favourab!e e6"eriences with the star
>Q@ #here is no doubt that the "eo"!e fee! the "ersecution of the Cews to be a sin3. #hat said, he ta+es
de!ight in Germany*s mi!itary disasters and in the bombing raids and is sad to note that it seems
im"ossib!e to shatter the civi!ians* mora!e. #hese memoirs 7at !east J,((( ty"ewritten "ages: amount
to a scathing refutation of $anie! Conah Go!dhagen*s thesis c!aiming that 2ordinary Germans3, by their
antiG0emitism, contributed to what is ca!!ed 2the Ho!ocaust3.
7
1ou talk there of France, of 7ermany, but if one goes further eastward, it&s Poland, the
7eneralgouvernement, and then, in regard to that country and )ussia, the 85insat0grupen9 have to be
discussed. %hat do you say here$
It*s above a!! in Russia that those "o!ice units o"erated. #he war in the .ast was a savage one. #he
0oviet 0tate had not signed on to the Geneva and Hague conventions and the Germans found
themse!ves u" against a "artisan war. t the 0oviet end there were no rights, no !aw. #hus cou!d the
Germans, when there*d been a grou" of "artisans in a vi!!age, be !ed to destroy everything in it, even if
there were women and chi!dren. German so!diers* safety was the "aramount concern. ;ith Germany
at war, what German wife, what father or mother wou!d have agreed that a husband or son shou!d be
!iab!e to be +i!!ed by an individua! in civi!ian dress shooting from behind, then s!i""ing awayD In such
moments there inevitab!y came about instances of mi!itary savagery, acts as are dis"!ayed in simi!ar
circumstances by a!! the armies of the wor!d.
4oming bac+ to my "ersona! e6"erience in France, I was ab!e to see at wor+ first the French so!dier,
then the German so!dier, the Ita!ian so!dier, and, fina!!y, the 4anadian so!dier, the Aritish so!dier and
the merican so!dier. I, who, during the war, was so antiGGerman, must admit that I on!y ever saw
e6treme!y correct Germans1 I can even mention some start!ing cases. ;hen, afterwards, I saw the
mericans arrive, I thought it was wonderfu!. 0ure enough, many of them were !i+eab!e and we!!G
behaved but there were a!so, amongst the merican so!diers, N4<s and officers, some rea! !outs. nd
then, on another score, I was es"ecia!!y distressed on seeing the horrors of the Aig Purge. Aut here
I*m getting off the sub-ect.
1ou wanted to talk about the 8(ommissarbefehl9, the 85insat0gruppen9 and 2abi 1ar.
Nes, three "arts of one same sub-ect. ;e*re to!d that there e6isted a 2Bommissarbefeh!3, described as
an order to +i!! systematica!!y the 0oviet "o!itica! commissars who oversaw the troo"s, and here the
occasion is sei?ed to add that the 2.insat?gru""en*s3 tas+ was to +i!! the Cews. It*s fa!se. First of a!!,
there never e6isted any 2Bommissarbefeh!3 as such. 0ome historians have ac,uired a habit of
designating by this term a set of documents concerning the sorting of "risoners or of certain civi!ians
-ust behind the front. #he .insat?gru""en, estab!ished at the time of the nsch!uss in %I&H, were
assigned the -ob of this sorting. <n the immense Russian front, they were a mere &,((( 7three
thousand:, drivers and c!er+s inc!uded. t the outset of the mi!itary cam"aign, they were given rigorous
instructions. Peo"!e shou!d read these instructions. #hey amount to saying that, as the ru!es of war are
un+nown to the 0oviets, a strict sorting of "risoners wi!! be in order. 4ertain ca"tives wi!! have to be
e6ecuted forthwith because they are not so!diers but fanaticised "o!itica! commissars who cannot be
!eft in "risonerGofGwar cam"s1 others wi!! "erha"s be usefu! to Germany. <ne document, !abe!!ed
/00RG(%K at the Nuremberg tria!, s"e!!s out eight categories of sus"ect "ersons who must, after
sorting, be se"arated 7ussonderung: from the mi!itary or civi!ian "risoners. It*s interesting to note that
the Cews are mentioned in eighth 7and !ast: "!ace1 it*s s"ecified in this order of <ctober 'I, %IK%, that
on!y a category of Cews is concerned. I ,uote8 2H: 0oviet Russian and Cewish inte!!ectua!s, insofar as
they are "rofessiona! revo!utionaries or "o!itica! activists, authors, editors, Bomintern officia!s etc.3.
;ith their customary dishonesty, the officia!s in charge of summarising the documents "resumed to
write that 2those affected3 2are above a!! 0oviet commissars and other !eading "ersona!ities, a!so Cews
and members of the inte!!igentsia31 in their r=sum= they go so far as to write of 2directivesQ for the
R"urging* by s"ecia! commandos of the "risonerGofGwar cam"s3, whereas, !et me re"eat, for this
document, it*s a matter of 2sorting3. ;hen the troo"s advance and ta+e a town, the .insat?gru""en, a
+ind of mi!itary "o!ice in the fie!d, wi!! have to try to chec+ the identity of "risoners and civi!ians. #his
doesn*t mean that these "eo"!e are going to be +i!!ed. <n!y some of them wi!! be s!ated for e6ecution.
<n the other side, with the 4ommunists, no bones were made about e6ecutions. #herefore in first "!ace
came the "o!itica! commissars. Neither here nor e!sewhere did there e6ist any order to +i!! the Cews.
Then, if I understand you correctly, these instructions didn&t specify that all the political commissars
were to be e,ecuted, even though the said commissars were mentioned first.
#hat*s right. <ften, it seems, those commissars were Cews1 however, even in their case, there was a
sorting to be carried out. Aut you*!! understand we!! enough that, in "ractice, this meant there were
8
"risoners that one had the right, in effect, to e6ecute in contravention of the !aws of war. !so, as
you*re "erha"s aware, the German mi!itary commanders did not want to act !i+e the Red rmy and, in
the end, refused to fo!!ow through with the harshest "rovisions of the orders in ,uestion.
s for Aabi Nar, no materia! investigation of the ty"e carried out at Batyn during the war has been
made there1 nothing has surfaced to su""ort the accounts genera!!y heard on the sub-ect, which seem
im"!ausib!e. I*!! come bac+ to Aabi Nar.
1ou wanted to add something about that town in the :kraine, 'arinka.
Nes, but first, at ris+ of sur"rising you, I give you notice that for a brief moment we*re going to !eave the
rea!m of history for that of fiction. Here is the drama that I imagine.
#he German mayor of Marin+a, recent!y sentenced to death for +i!!ing a Cewish woman, is going to be
shot by firing s,uad. He is in a "rison ce!! awaiting e6ecution. It is night. He is in the throes of death.
Cust now, a man a""ears at the ce!! door and addresses him as fo!!ows8 2Nou are a German whom
German so!diers, in a short whi!e, are going to shoot because you*ve +i!!ed a Cewess. However, be
advised that, in a few years* time, Germany wi!! have been f!attened. Her con,uerors wi!! "rove
ruth!ess. #hey*!! ma+e a c!ean swee" of everything you*ve !earnt and be!ieved. #hey*!! ma+e u" a !ieG
ridden history of this war. #hey*!! im"ose the winners* version. #his new officia! historica! truth, forced
u"on Germany and "ro"agated near!y everywhere e!se in the wor!d as we!!, wi!! be that, during this
war, Germans had every !icence to do what you*ve done. Nes, its "romoters wi!! go so far as to c!aim
that the Germans s"ent the better "art of their time hunting down, torturing and s!aughtering the Cews.
#hey*!! state that Hit!er had given the order to murder a!! the .uro"ean Cews. #hey*!! add that, in order
to succeed in a tas+ of such co!ossa! "ro"ortions, he*d had wea"ons of mass destruction bui!t,
wea"ons so diabo!ica! that after the war not a trace wi!! be found of them. #e!evision sets, sti!! so rare
today in %IK', wi!! be in every home1 morning, noon, afternoon, evening and night, year in year out,
they*!! be s"reading this universa! neoGtruth that wi!! be taught in the "rimary and secondary schoo!s,
the universities and even in the catechism, to your chi!dren, grandchi!dren and greatGgrandchi!dren.
bit everywhere monuments wi!! be "ut u" and ceremonies instituted in honour of the new re!igion. #he
few who dare to dis"ute this dogma wi!! be ta+en to court, thrown into "rison, out!awed from society.
nd do you +now who the most fervent a"ost!es of this new creed wi!! be, a creed of what wi!! be
ca!!ed Rthe Ho!ocaust of the Cews*D $on*t go searchingF It wi!! be the Germans themse!ves. In the very
firing s,uad that*s going to shoot you there are "erha"s some men who*!! survive the war and who,
once they*ve got bac+ home, wi!! start be!ieving the !ie of Rthe Ho!ocaust*. In any case, their chi!dren,
their grandchi!dren and their greatGgrandchi!dren wi!! be!ieve it.3 #he mayor of Marin+a wi!! receive this
message as an overwhe!ming shoc+. Indeed, he*!! go out of his mind as a resu!t, and it*s a madman
that they*!! be !eading to the sta+e.
-uch is the tragedy I imagine. I see in it the story line of a stage play or film to be made. This tragedy
is that of 7ermany, whose very soul has been harried to death with the 8Holocaust9.
Eet*s !eave fiction and come bac+ to history. I*d !i+e to dwe!! a !itt!e on the case of Aabi Nar. 4urrent!y,
certain Cewish organisations, sensing that the myth of the gas chambers is ta+ing in water a!! around,
are trying a diversion, as+ing us to turn our attention away from the a!!eged gas chambers and gas
vans and towards the 2.insat?gru""en3. #his is, for e6am"!e, what a French Cewish "ersona!ity !i+e
Cac,ues tta!i has recent!y done in writing 2#he vast ma-ority of Cews s!ain were +i!!ed by the individua!
wea"ons of German so!diers and "o!icemen, between %IK( and %IK', and not by the deathGwor+s
that were "ut into "!ace afterwards3. .m"!oying a brand new "hrase, these Cews ca!! this the 20hoah
by bu!!ets3F #his 20hoah by bu!!ets3 is now summoned to re"!ace the 20hoah by gas3.
nd so it is that we*re being served u" again with the 2Aabi Nar massacre3. t the Nuremberg tria!, the
"!ace name 2Aabi Nar3 7in fact, the name of a ravine outside Biev: didn*t come u", but a certain
document sim"!y re"orted, in one sentence, that the Germans in Biev, which they*d recent!y ta+en,
had, fo!!owing a s"ate of arson attac+s b!amed on NB9$ agents, arrested, in a re"risa! measure, a!!
the city*s Cews, then, on the 'Ith and &(th of 0e"tember %IK%, had a""arent!y trans"orted a number
of them in the direction of the !oca!ity +nown as Aabi Nar to e6ecute, in the end L ta+e note of this
9
figure8 marve! at the "recision L no fewer than &&,MM%F #he document is neither dated nor signed. It*s
one of a set se!ected by a !ieutenant ;a!ter Rothschi!d of Eondon. In itse!f, what this sentence re!ates
is im"!ausib!e. #he rea! massacre of Batyn, "er"etrated by the NB9$ and !ater im"uted to the
Germans, had !eft about K,K(( men L forma!!y attested L dead, in over two months 7MarchG"ri!
%IK(:. Ay com"arison, in the Aabi Nar massacre there wou!d thus, in two days, have been near!y eight
times more victims than at Batyn in two months. 0uch a fantastic butchery wou!d have !eft count!ess
traces and the surroundings themse!ves wou!d have been turned u"side down, if on!y by the efforts
made in the forbidding tas+ of mass buria!, and then, as some wi!! te!! us, of unearthing fo!!owed by
o"enGair cremations. However, the aeria! "hotogra"hs of the time show no signs of any such thing and
no materia! evidence of this huge crime is avai!ab!e. #hese days, in the /+raine, there*s a Roman
4atho!ic "riest who*s been getting a !ot of attention, father Patric+ $esbois, a Frenchman and great
friend of the Cews. His s"ecia!ity consists in trave!!ing the !ength and breadth of the !and in search of
2mass Cewish graves3. He has the good /+rainian "easants of a given area informed that he*!! soon be
ca!!ing at such or such !oca!e and that he intends to garner testimonies about the s!aughters of Cews
by the Germans during the war. It*s who!!y in the inhabitants* interest to be ab!e to boast that the
environs actua!!y "ossess such mass graves over which, afterwards, may be erected monuments that
may in turn attract the odd foreign tourist. #he 2witnesses3 get together and "re"are a story. #he "riest
then "ays his visit and has his "hotogra"h ta+en with the countryGfo!+ as they "oint towards some s"ot
or other. <ne may, to begin with, be astonished at the age of certain witnesses "hotogra"hed thus far8
they are ,uite "!ain!y be!ow the necessary age, which wou!d norma!!y be about H(. Aut there*s
something more astonishing sti!!8 these su""osed mass graves wi!! not be dug o"en1 no disinterment
or any materia! verification wi!! be carried out, a!! under the admirab!e "retence that the Cewish re!igion
"rohibits the touching of Cewish cor"ses1 however, it*s enough to !oo+ in the .ncyc!o"edia Cudaica
7%IMH: at the entry 2uto"sies >"!ura!@ and $issection >singu!ar@3 to see that there is no such "rohibition
at a!!. <n!y at a sing!e !ocation, Aus+ outside Evov, have fifteen common graves been dug o"en, but
none of the s+e!etons found there were e6amined and the sites were a!! covered over with a thic+ !ayer
of concrete, meaning no authentication wi!! be very "ossib!e in futureF curious way of res"ecting a
body in accordance with Cewish !awF #he historian wi!! thus have to be satisfied with what father
$esbois, a c!ever man, te!!s us the witnesses to!d him. Hence, unverified numbers of unfound and
unshown victims wi!! be added u" and, at the end, we sha!! be to!d that the /+raine contains so many
mass graves with so many Cewish victims. nd a!! this under the sea! of the res"ective re"resentatives
of the Roman 4atho!ic 4hurch, the 2NahadGinG/num3 association and 25a+a3, a grou" "resenting itse!f
as 2dedicated individua!s determined >Q@ to accord the "ro"er res"ect for the dead in accordance with
Cewish !aw, heritage and tradition3. s at uschwit?, tourism wi!! stand some chance of thriving.
;ne <uestion. 1ou speak of 8-hoah by bullets9 and of documents. I myself think I recall seeing
documents showing maps with sketches of coffins accompanied by the number of 6ews e,ecuted at
the spots thus indicated. +pparently, these would be documents of the -- or the 5insat0gruppen sent
from the )ussian front to 2erlin. They would show how many 6ews had been killed by 5insat0gruppen
+, 2, * and D. Is this not evidence$ %hat&s your view here$
I +now those documents and, in "articu!ar, the one with the coffins and the figures. It was the merican
author rthur R. Aut? who first dea!t with them in a critica! manner, in %IM), in his remar+ab!e wor+ #he
Hoa6 of the #wentieth 4entury. #oo often it*s a ,uestion of sus"ect, unsigned documents, coming from
0oviet sources. #he one that you*re s"ea+ing of ma+es me thin+ of the aeria! "hotos of uschwit?,
"ub!ished in %IMI by Arugioni and Poirier, two former 4I men. In these "hotos one can ma+e out the
uschwit? crematoria with a naSve indication bearing the words 2Gas 4hamber>s@3. Here, on the
s+etches of coffins, an anonymous hand has written figures su""osed!y re"resenting the tota!s of
Cews s!ain. #here*s no indication of any sources that might ma+e "ossib!e a verification of the figures*
origins.
Have you noted how each time a common grave is discovered in )ussia and trouble is taken to make
an e,amination it&s found that it contains victims of -talin and not of Hitler$
Fina!!y, it*s a good idea, in any case, to be circums"ect as concerns the eva!uations sent by mi!itary
men to su"eriors in Aer!in.
10
;ne might say that, caught up in the war, the 7ermans who had to send reports to 2erlin hadn&t the
leisure to draw up, as in peacetime, impeccable reports with all the necessary signatures on them.
#hat*s mere!y a hy"othesis on your "art, for count!ess German documents of that era show they
remained ,uite meticu!ous indeed.
+ hypothesis, so be it, but isn&t it asking a bit too much, insisting on perfect evidence, which perhaps
has never e,isted$
;hen there is no evidence to hand, one refrains from ma+ing accusations. <ne*s entit!ed to say
2Rumour has itQ3 or 2It seems "!ausib!e thatQ3, but not to go any further. #o sum u" here, I*d say that,
as concerns the great massacres of Cews im"uted to the .insat?gru""en, I*m waiting for crimina!
investigations to be carried out, !i+e those that were made for Batyn. nd don*t !et anyone come and
te!! us the cor"ses a!! went u" in smo+eF .ven if those mounds of bodies had been burnt in the o"en
air, that wou!d have ca!!ed for ,uite un!i+e!y ,uantities of wood or fue!, and, what*s more, traces wou!d
be easy to find, if on!y in the form of teeth or bone fragments. 0ti!! today, bones of men of Na"o!eon*s
army are found from time to time in Russia.
2ut what do you make of the trials and the clues that demonstrate the crime and allow a =udgment to
be made$
4!ues are but a""arent signs that sim"!y render the e6istence of a thing "robab!e. #hey*re what CeanG
4!aude Pressac, that friend of the B!arsfe!d cou"!e, ca!!ed in his big merican boo+ 2beginnings of
"roof3 or 2traces3. Eet*s be wary of "eo"!e who*ve got the idea that by adding a ,uarterG"roof to a
,uarterG"roof "!us a ha!fGtruth, you obtain one "roof. #hat "ractice was, it seems, em"!oyed in certain
witchcraft tria!s of centuries "ast and it*s what was done in a number of court "roceedings in the '(th
century, es"ecia!!y against those modernGday sorcerers +nown as the satanic 2Na?i war crimina!s3.
That&s not what I&m saying. I&m saying that these days there are trials where real proof cannot be
produced but where clues suffice to try the accused.
Tuite right. In France, for e6am"!e, the -udges can even invo+e what they ca!! their 2innermost
conviction3. -udge can do that, but not the historian. How many times has it been discovered, with
the "assing of time, that a -udicia! error was committed at some moment or otherD In the "articu!ar
instance of the gigantic case brought against Germany, I as+ that no one be content with his or her
2innermost conviction3. I demand "roof, one sing!e "iece of actua! "roof. I note that the accusing
historians !i+e Po!ia+ov and Hi!berg, and a fair number of others, have wound u" ac+now!edging that
there is no "roof. Nou*re we!! aware that Rau! Hi!berg, at first 7in %I)%:, had the nerve to write that
Hit!er had given two orders to e6terminate the Cews. He added that this e6termination had been
carefu!!y organised from to" to bottom within the chain of command. However, in %IH&, under the
revisionists* "ressure, he had to admit 7and !ater, in %IHJ at the first 5Pnde! tria! in #oronto, confirmed
under oath: that there hadn*t been, after a!!, either an order, a "!an or a budget. #hen he fe!! bac+ on
the most "itifu! of e6"!anations8 according to his new ana!ysis, a!! had been done without an order and
without a "!an through 2an incredib!e meeting of minds, a consensusGmind reading by a farGf!ung
bureaucracy3, the bureaucracy of the #hird Reich. I ca!! that 2invo+ing the wor+ings of the 7Cewish:
Ho!y 0"irit3.
May I give you sti!! another "ointD
/aturally.
Persona!!y, something that rea!!y struc+ me, s"ea+ing of fa!se "roof, was that so!emn session at the
/N, where merican $efence 0ecretary 4o!in Powe!! was seen c!aiming to demonstrate the e6istence
of wea"ons of mass destruction in Ira,. I can assure you that the revisionist I am "erceived at the very
instant that it was a!! a sham. G!aring!y obvious. ;e !augh about it today but it*s dis,uieting that no
one, there at the /N, shou!d have risen to cry out his indignation and "roc!aim before the who!e
assemb!y8 2I raise a so!emn "rotest against this stunt of Mr Powe!!*s, who ta+es us for foo!s. ;e a!!
+now that, in the "hia! he*s brandishing, there*s sure!y nothing but some harm!ess !i,uid1 here we*re
-ust being served a cinematic "!oy. ;e a!! +now as we!! that, in the "hotogra"hs "ro-ected on the
11
screen, nothing but innocuous bui!dings have been shown, and that it*s !aughab!e to write, again u" on
the screen, that those structures house wea"ons of mass destruction.3 It*s ,uite "recise!y the same
"utGu" -ob that in %IMI Arugioni and Poirier, those e6G4I men, went in for when, showing us
crematoria, they "resumed to te!! us those bui!dings housed wea"ons of mass destruction ca!!ed 2gas
chambers3. 0ame sort of inscri"tions, same crude !ies.
To pick up on a <uestion that I&ve already put, do you think the 7erman /ational -ocialist regime
committed in=ustices towards the 6ews$
Nou said 2crimes3 and here you say 2in-ustices3. I don*t +now how to ,ua!ify the measures that
Germany was !ed to ta+e regarding "eo"!e whom, not without reason, she he!d to be hosti!e or
"otentia!!y dangerous. ny nation at war may be !ed to ta+e measures that wi!! certain!y be crue! for
the fami!ies affected. If, tomorrow, war bro+e out between France and Ita!y, it*s obvious that the French
government wou!d intern or "ut under house arrest a!! Ita!ians residing in France and that the Ita!ians
wou!d act !i+ewise with res"ect to the Frenchmen who ha""ened to be in Ita!y.
-o then, for you, 7ermany was at war with those whom one calls 8the 6ews9.
Nes, she was at war with 2the Cews3 -ust as 2the Cews3 were at war with Germany.
nd if we ta+e things to their !ogica! conc!usion when observed from a mi!itary view"oint, at bottom,
the tota!ity of those "otentia!!y dangerous "ersons cou!d have been "ut in concentration cam"s or +e"t
under house arrest. Aut their numbers were such that it wasn*t "racticab!e. Germany therefore
decided to ta+e measures which, as the war intensified, grew "rogressive!y harsher. Eet*s ta+e the
e6am"!e of the com"u!sory wearing of the star, from a certain moment and in certain "arts of GermanG
occu"ied .uro"e 7in the southern ?one of France, the Cews didn*t have to wear the star:.
#his measure amounted to "!acing the Cews under "robationary su"ervision. Aut do note that it*s !ess
crue! and far !ess of an e6action than !oc+ing fami!ies away in cam"s as the Germans did in certain
cases and as the mericans and 4anadians themse!ves did, not on!y with the Ca"anese on their
territory, which was norma!, but a!so with mericans and 4anadians of Ca"anese origin. s for the
reason why the Germans decided to im"!ement the wearing of the star, it was above a!! with a view to
ensure the German so!dier*s safety. Many Cews be!onged to grou"s of those whom the !!ies ca!!ed
R=sistants and whom the Germans, for their "art, ca!!ed terrorists. Nou can we!! imagine that the
German so!diers weren*t going to !oo+ hard and c!ose at other "edestrians in the street in an attem"t
to see whether they were wa!+ing near "ossib!y dangerous individua!s. #hat star warned them. In
Paris, in the underground, where each train was made u" of five carriages, the starGwearers had to get
on the fifth carriage, in which the German so!diers weren*t a!!owed to ride.
+ccording to you, was this treatment of the 6ews =ust$ *ouldn&t it be argued that in France or
7ermany the 6ews were well assimilated and that, for e,ample, the links between the 6ews of Paris
and those of /ew 1ork were, anyhow, not very strong$
It*s not a matter, strict!y s"ea+ing, of a mora! ,uestion but of mi!itary necessity. From a mora! view"oint
I can te!! you that the treatment of the Cews in Germany short!y before the war, at the time of
Brista!!nacht, seems to me unworthy, even though I understand the e6as"eration that the Germans
cou!d fee! in the face of the growing number of Cewish "rovocations, the Cewish organisations*
cease!ess ca!!s for a crusade against the New Germany and, most notab!y, the assassination in Paris
of vom Rath, the embassy counse!!or, by the Cew Gryns?"an. Cust as unworthy, in my eyes, was the
fact that Goering shou!d im"ose on the Cews a fine of a bi!!ion mar+s for the damage then caused. Aut,
you +now, 2to -udge is to com"are3 and, as concerns horrors of a!! +inds visited on minorities, no nation
has the right to dis"ense !essons to others. s I*ve had occasion to say, every war is a butchery1 the
winner is a good butcher and the !oser, a !ess good one1 thus, at the end of a war, the winner may give
the !oser !essons in butchery but he*s not entit!ed to mete out !essons in rights, -ustice and virtue to
him. Net that is indeed what, at Nuremberg, the winners of the 0econd ;or!d ;ar did to the !osers, in
"roceedings of a rare hy"ocrisy.
2ut you do agree, after all, with the principle that international =ustice must be able to punish war
crimes and, as it&s said today, 8crimes against humanity9$
12
s a "rinci"!e I*!! agree readi!y enough1 but see how, in "ractice, it*s a!most a!ways, at the end of any
war, the !oser that this -ustice finds gui!ty. It*s a revo!ting s"ectac!e, this hunting "arty of "rosecutors
and -udges in b!ac+ robes, a!! grou"ed around so!diers crushed by defeat who now see their
con,uerors "arading about in a courtroom. #he merican army, a!though the b!oodiest of a!! armies,
never has any e6"!aining to do before the internationa! community. #o come bac+ to the 0econd ;or!d
;ar, how can one a!!ow that those who made a!!iance with 0ta!in shou!d be ab!e to address the !east
rebu+e to those who made a!!iance with Hit!erD Eet*s su""ose, ta+ing u" the usua! com"arison, that
0ta!in was the "!ague and Hit!er, cho!era1 I don*t see how those who have, in rea!ity, chosen the
"!ague, can find fau!t with others for having, in rea!ity, chosen cho!era. ;hat right had the French
genera! Eec!erc, who was more or !ess in merican uniform, on May H, %IKJ, when Germany had
surrendered, to have a grou" of twe!ve or thirteen "risoners ta+en out of a hos"ita! and shot without
tria! -ust for being in a more or !ess German uniformD Eet*s "oint out that it was main!y from horror or
fear of 0ovietGsty!e communism that so many young Frenchmen had signed u" with either the Mi!ice
or the German army.
Do you =ustify the nature of the reprisals carried out by the 7erman army in France$
Eet*s ta!+ about the bomb attac+s and assassinations in France against the German occu"ation forces
or French "artisans of 4o!!aboration. !arge number of Germans died or were in-ured as a resu!t of
such attac+s. #here were a!so many acts of destruction against the means of trans"ort and
communication L for e6am"!e te!e"hone cab!es L , army barrac+s and de"ots, cro" harvests1 there
were wea"ons traffic+ing o"erations, es"ionage for the !!ies, aid to deserters, esca"e networ+s, there
was the 4ommunist "ro"aganda ca!!ing for ever more bomb and sni"er attac+s. ;hat cou!d the
German army officers in charge doD t first they had either the cu!"rits themse!ves or hostages shot by
firing s,uad. #hen, they rea!ised that the French "o"u!ation, on the who!e, both strong!y disa""roved
of the murders of German so!diers and fe!t considerab!e indignation at the re"risa!s made by the
occu"ation forces. #he Germans ris+ed a!ienating this "o"u!ation. #hus, from a certain "oint, they
"referred, in numerous instances, to a""!y de"ortation instead of e6ecution. #owards the end, what
with the big increase in R=sistance attac+s in the wa+e of the !!ied !andings in Normandy, they turned
again to shootings, carrying out a !arge number of them. In France, the tota! number of "ersons shot
by sentence of a German mi!itary tribuna! or court martia! seems to be situated, for the entire duration
of the war, between K,J'( and K,JK(, and not, as was stated at the Nuremberg tria!, at 'I,))(. #he
4ommunists have !ong endorsed far greater figures8 they haven*t shrun+ from "resenting their "arty as
2the Party of the MJ,((( firing s,uad victims31 for his "art, 4ommunist chief Maurice #hore? dared to
te!! 0ta!in, on November %H, %IKM8 2In France during the war, &J(,((( 4ommunists were shot by the
Germans3 7in the review 4ommunisme, summer %II), ". KM:. In France, the number of 4ommunists
shot by firing s,uad was, in rea!ity, a few hundred. ;hen, in %IKJ, French troo"s occu"ied their "art of
Germany, they didn*t find themse!ves confronted with any armed, organised resistance bent on +i!!ing
French so!diers. <therwise they wou!d have behaved as merci!ess!y as their army had done at the
time of the Ruhr va!!ey occu"ation or in its actions against 2the rebe!s3 in Madagascar, Indochina or
!geria. I have in mind a "oster that was "ut u" a!! over one German city in the French ?one, showing
the cor"ses "hotogra"hed in a concentration cam" and stating that any "erson caught removing it
wou!d be condemned to deathF From the moment a country becomes the occu"ying "ower in another
territory, it wi!! be inc!ined to instate a reign of terror there if those being occu"ied rebe!, and es"ecia!!y
if they ta+e u" wea"ons to do so.
7oing on to <uite another <uestion, today in 7ermany, in the trials for disputing the Holocaust, the
=udges, in accordance with the law, warn both the accused and his lawyer telling them> 8The Holocaust
is common knowledge. It&s an established fact. 1ou haven&t the right to dispute it, nor even to try to
prove your good faith or to =ustify yourself by spelling out the reasons why you don&t believe in the
reality of the genocide of the 6ews and the /a0i gas chambers9. %hat do you think of this$
#his 2common +now!edge3 argument stems from rtic!e '% of the 4harter of the Nuremberg
Internationa! Mi!itary #ribuna!, which states8 2#he #ribuna! sha!! not re,uire "roof of facts of common
+now!edge but sha!! ta+e -udicia! notice thereof3. It*s outrageous. ;hat, here, does 2common
+now!edge3 meanD Facts of 2common +now!edge3 for whomD ccording to what criteria does the
13
Nuremberg #ribuna! decide that such or such a fact is of 2common +now!edge3 whi!e some other fact
isn*tD #he answer is it*s the #ribuna! that, without giving its reasons, arbitrari!y "ronounces that such or
such a fact is of 2common +now!edge3, and grants itse!f "ermission to ma+e its assessments in this
regard without adducing any re!evant evidence. PreGem"tive!y, from the very start it forbids anyone to
remind it that in "ro"er -ustice a!! must be "roved. s there e6ists no instance of a""ea!, here we have
a court that grants itse!f fu!! "ower to vio!ate the duties of the -udge. It*s in the secrecy of their
de!iberations, without consu!ting anyone, that these -udges choose such or such a 2fact3 and decree
that it need not be "roved. #he "rocedure is a cynica! one.
In regard to revisionism, I*ve had dea!ings with "eo"!e of the -udiciary in France, .ng!and, Germany,
ustria, 0wit?er!and and .ng!ishGs"ea+ing 4anada. I de!ight in hearing them a!! use a com"!icated and
"retentious !anguage to e6"ress the sim"!est and c!umsiest ideas. 0o it was that at Nuremberg the
-udges, at bottom, decreed8 2It*s !i+e this because this is how it is3, or e!se8 2#his is how it is because
we*ve decided that it shou!d be so3. Aut rtic!e '% of that strange #ribuna!*s 4harter has an even
bigger sur"rise in store for us in its ne6t sentence, and here the very "ea+ of cynicism is attained.
Eisten to this8 2>#he #ribuna!@ sha!! a!so ta+e -udicia! notice of officia! governmenta! documents and
re"orts of the /nited Nations, inc!uding the acts and documents of the committees set u" in the
various a!!ied countries for the investigation of war crimes, and of records and findings of mi!itary or
other #ribuna!s of any of the /nited Nations3, that is, any of the 0tates that ha""en to be the dec!ared
enemies of the accused. Here*s what amounts to saying8 2<n these matters the "rosecution is
automatica!!y right and the defence need on!y ho!d its tongue3. Hence one wi!! not be sur"rised at the
fact, for e6am"!e, that the document of 0oviet origin conc!uding that the Batyn massacre was a
German crime 7with %%,((( victims, it was statedF: shou!d have been considered right from the start as
being 2of "robative va!ue3. #he German barristers 0tahmer and Eaternser, who wanted to cha!!enge it,
found themse!ves being shut u" by a reminder of the magica! rtic!e '% given a!! at once by the 0oviet
"rosecutor, by "residing -udge Eawrence, and L the e6treme of the e6treme L by 0oviet -udge
Ni+itchen+o acting as if he himse!f were a "rosecutor.
2ut, Professor Faurisson, if, in 7ermany, it&s said that the Holocaust is 8offenkundig9, and so of
common knowledge, this is because our libraries are cram3full of books on the sub=ect. This being the
case, how can one not agree that it&s 8common knowledge9$
#hose masses of boo+s a!! ta+e u", with some variations, one and the same argument, that of
Germany*s con,uerors. It*s the !aw of the victor here that*s being a""!ied in the !and of the van,uished.
If one !oo+s c!ose!y, one sees that this argument is not at a!! "roved, and even that there e6ists a
,uantity of evidence to "rove it wrong. For the historian, 2common +now!edge3 doesn*t constitute either
argument or evidence. It used to be common +now!edge that the 0un revo!ved around the .arth1 it used
to be common +now!edge that Nero burned Rome1 it used to be common +now!edge that witches
e6isted. In %I%K it was common +now!edge for the !!ies that the Huns were cutting off Ae!gian
chi!dren*s hands. It has, in a more recent "ast, L if on!y by virtue of a decree from the Nuremberg
-udges L been common +now!edge that the Batyn massacre was carried out by the Germans.
-o then, as you see it, )aul Hilberg and his like are either lying or stupid.
Not necessari!y. It may be that they more or !ess be!ieve what they re!ate. #his is what I tried to e6"!ain
during our conference when, at the start of my ta!+, I s"o+e of a 2historica! !ie3. #his !ie sets itse!f a"art
from the ordinary !ie in that, deve!o"ing over a !ong "eriod of time, it becomes, historica!!y, a sort of
standard truth. Peo"!e then sincere!y be!ieve what they ca!! truth and which, at its origin, is but a !ie.
#hese "eo"!e err more by way of conformism, !a?iness and !ac+ of inte!!ectua! curiosity than by way of
dishonesty. #hese fau!ts are to be "ut down to Man*s im"erfect nature. ;e can*t s"end our e6istence
verifying everything8 that wou!d be too burdensome. Hence we often "refer to swa!!ow, eyes c!osed, a
"roduct advertised as who!esome and genuine whereas, in fact, it*s doctored.
Do you mean they might well be 8men of good will9$
In order to answer, I*d have to be ab!e to "robe their hearts and entrai!s. I don*t +now how much
honest conviction there may be in any "articu!ar one of them. <n the other hand, what I do +now is
14
that there e6ists ordinari!y in !ife something ca!!ed the 2white !ie3, that is, the !ie "eo"!e a!!ow
themse!ves to te!! 2for the cause3. #hat cause may ha""en to be a "o!itica! or re!igious one, or it may
serve the interests of a grou", a "rofessiona! body or certain individua!s. In such cases, "eo"!e ta+e
!eeway as concerns the e6actness of facts or figures and they may even end u" finding themse!ves
tai!oring testimony to circumstances. #he "ermanent care of e6actitude is ,uite a constriction. I
be!ieve, moreover, in the force of fear as we!! as in the need for comfort. #hat force and that need
dictate a good "art of our behaviour. #hat said, amongst those who argue the case for 2the Ho!ocaust3
there are some bra?en !iars. #he revisionists have caught them in the act a thousand times. 0imon
;iesentha! and .!ie ;iese! are su"erb fa!se witnesses.
nd then there are the b!uster merchants. #a+e the ustroGmerican Cew Rau! Hi!berg, whom I*ve
a!ready s"o+en to you about. It*s worthwhi!e to come bac+ to his case and bring u" some more
s"ecific "oints. He is Number <ne amongst the historians who "ro"agate the e6termination myth.
Hi!berg commenced his research on the a!!eged 2destruction of the .uro"ean Cews3 in %IKH. He
"ub!ished his boo+ in %I)%. <n "age %MM thereof, he didn*t shrin+ from affirming that there had been
two orders from Hit!er to e6terminate the Cews. #he first order, given in the s"ring of %IK%, instructed
his men, a""arent!y, to go and +i!! the Cews on the s"ot, in 0oviet territory, and, soon afterwards 7no
date s"ecified:, the second order was, a""arent!y, to trans"ort a!! the other Cews of .uro"e to
e6termination cam"s. Aut Hi!berg mentioned no sources, no documents, no designation of those
orders and no "recise dates. However, no one stood u" to cha!!enge his statements and a!! the
historians seem to have agreed to consider Rau! Hi!berg a firstGrate historian. He*s sim"!y Number
<ne amongst the historians who defend a certain officia! truth that*s im"osed on us.
How do you account for the fact that, subse<uently, )aul Hilberg should have had a change of heart
and abandoned his ?# e,planation$
#he big revisionist offensive was in the !ate %IM(s. 4!ear!y Hi!berg was -o!ted by it and, in %IH', he to!d
the French wee+!y Nouve! <bservateur8 2In a certain way, Faurisson and others, without wanting to,
did us a favour. #hey raised ,uestions which had the effect of engaging historians in new research.
#hey have ob!iged us to once again co!!ect information, to reGe6amine documents and to go dee"er
into the understanding of what too+ "!ace3. ;hat we didn*t +now at the time was that Hi!berg, sha+en
by the advent of the revisionists, had gone bac+ to wor+ again and was revising his o!d argument, with
its two a!!eged orders from Hit!er, from to" to bottom.
In %IH&, in a ta!+ at a conference in New Nor+, he sudden!y "resented his new thesis, an a!together
strange one that ought to have dis,ua!ified him forever in the eyes of the historica! community.
ccording to the new !ine, there hadn*t in fact been, for the immense enter"rise of destroying an entire
"eo"!e on a who!e continent, any order, "!an or budget but mere!y a +ind of tacit understanding, a
s"ontaneous "!ot of German bureaucratsF Hi!berg*s words then were e6act!y the fo!!owing8 2Aut what
began in %IK% was a "rocess of destruction not "!anned in advance, not organi?ed centra!!y by any
agency. #here was no b!ue"rint and there was no budget for destructive measures. >#hose measures@
were ta+en ste" by ste", one ste" at a time. #hus came about not so much a "!an being carried out,
but an incredib!e meeting of minds, a consensusGmind reading by a farGf!ung bureaucracy3. Nou*!! have
noticed that he s"ecifies 2no budget31 it*s a res"onse to a "oint that I "ersona!!y had brought u". I*d
said that, as nothing is done without money, above a!! in wartime, someone had to show me what
huge sum had indeed been a!!ocated to the a!!eged cam"aign of mass destruction of the Cews of
.uro"e. Nou see how Hi!berg, in fact, dodges the ,uestions and comes u" with a staggering
2e6"!anation3. !! in a!!, for him, the who!e "resumed vast crimina! o"eration was carried outQ by the
wor+ings of the Ho!y 0"irit or through some "henomenon of s"ontaneous generation. He himse!f
s"ea+s of an 2incredib!e meeting of minds3 amongst count!ess bureaucrats1 !et it be as+ed in "assing8
if it is 2incredib!e31 that is, unbe!ievab!e, how can "eo"!e be re,uired to be!ieve it, on "ain of fine and
im"risonmentD nd what is thought transmission if not a "aranorma! "henomenon, something in which
one shou!d be sti!! !ess ob!iged to be!ieveD
#he day in #oronto when Rau! Hi!berg confirmed under oath that that was how he accounted for 2the
destruction of the .uro"ean Cews3 we had a good !augh round the big tab!e where .rnst 5Pnde!
15
we!comed us each evening as we returned from court. I for my "art remember coming out with this8
2;e*re entering a new e"och. From now on, whenever I need the sa!t and "e""er or the water "itcher,
I*!! no !onger even have to say so. ;e*!! use the Rincredib!e meeting of minds* and RconsensusGmind
reading*. fter a!!, if the German bureaucrats, re"uted!y the most thic+Gheaded of a!!, "ractised that
system, why shou!d we do without itD3
In the new edition of his wor+, which was at "ress at the very moment the tria! was going on, Hi!berg
didn*t use those stu"efying "hrases but he did resort to their e,uiva!ents in convo!uted and academic
form, writing8 2In the fina! ana!ysis, the destruction of the Cews was not so much a "roduct of !aws and
commands as it was a matter of s"irit, of shared com"rehension, of consonance and synchroni?ation3.
nd a!! that, he s"ecifies, without !eaving any written traceF
'r Faurisson, according to you, how many 6ews died, all told, during the -econd %orld %ar due to
actions of the 7ermans$ How many, amongst those, in the concentration camps$ In which camps,
e,actly$ How many through the use of gas chambers or gas vans$
No Cew was +i!!ed in any e6ecution gas chamber or gas van. Here it*s a ,uestion of wea"ons of mass
destruction of which no trace has ever been found and of which no one has been ab!e to "rovide a
technica! descri"tion. #here is no "ossibi!ity that the a!!eged gas chambers shown, here and there, to
tourists can ever have been actua! gas chambers. I sha!! not here be returning to that sub-ect, with
which I have so often dea!t, and I note that the o""osing side stubborn!y "ersist in their refusa! to
"rovide us with a technica! and scientific study of the "resumed crime wea"on. s for the tota! number
of Cews of .uro"e who died during the war due to actions of the Germans, that*s not yet "ossib!e to
determine, and this is so, to a !arge e6tent, because of the scanda!ous conduct of the wartime !!ies
and the 0tate of Israe!, who stand c!ose guard over the enormous mass of archives stored in
Germany, at Aad ro!sen, by the Internationa! #racing 0ervice 7I#0:. From time to time, it*s heard that
these archives are at !ast going to be o"ened to researchers. Cewish or 5ionist organisations c!aim to
demand such an o"ening. $on*t be!ieve any of it. I*ve devoted ,uite a !ot of attention to the matter and
can te!! you that, if those archives were com"!ete!y o"ened u" to a!! researchers without restriction, it
wou!d s"e!! catastro"he for the u"ho!ders of the 2Ho!ocaust3 argument. It wou!d be revea!ed how
carefu!!y the #hird Reich authorities recorded data about every cam" detainee*s L Cewish or nonG
Cewish L arriva!, de"arture, hos"ita!isations if any, successive -obs, transfers from one cam" to
another and, in the event, decease. nd then there*d be access to the "recise number of cremations
done at each crematorium as we!! as the number of Cewish 2survivors3, that is of those mi!!ions of
miracu!ous!y s"ared inmates who, after the war, s"read throughout the wor!d, many of them forming
the origina! "o"u!ation of the 0tate of Israe!. In the !ate %IM(s revisionists began getting interested in
those archives8 at the time there e6isted, on the "remises of the I#0, a 2historica! section3 7 Historische
+bteilung:. In %IMH the authorities sudden!y c!osed it. For my "art, I as+ that it be reo"ened, with
"ermission given to a!! researchers to consu!t the tota!ity of the materia!.
Aut you*ve -ust as+ed about the number of Cews who died due to actions of the Germans. No one, for
the time being, is ab!e to say. #o begin with, it wou!d be necessary to set a"art those who died of
natura! causes from those who died as a conse,uence of actions on the "art of either the Germans or
the !!ies. Ae that as it may, I have observations to ma+e on the considerab!e number of Cews who
survived the war and who are in themse!ves as many c!ues to suggest that there cannot have been a
"o!icy of +i!!ing a!! the Cews. In the Israe!i dai!y Haaret? of "ri! %H, '((K, corres"ondent miram
Aar+at had an artic!e entit!ed 2/.0. court to discuss ,uestion of who is a Ho!ocaust survivor31 it to!d of
how two Cewish demogra"hics e6"erts who*d had the -ob of rec+oning the number of Cewish survivors
sti!! a!ive in '((K had arrived, res"ective!y, at the figures of )HM,I(( and %,(I',(((. #he difference is
e6"!ained by the second e6"ert*s inc!usion of the Cewish "o"u!ation of North frica, 0yria and
Eebanon, territories occu"ied for a certain time either by the Germans and Ita!ians or by the forces of
the 9ichy government. I*!! refer here therefore on!y to the !ower figure and "oint out that )HM,I((
.uro"ean Cews having e6"erienced the German occu"ation and sti!! a!ive near!y si6ty years on im"!y
that, -ust after the war, the number of Cewish survivors must necessari!y have amounted to severa!
mi!!ion 7"robab!y &,'J(,(((:. ;hat sort of a!!eged e6termination "o!icy can there have been if mi!!ions
of survivors or miracu!ous!y s"ared targets were !eft a!ive in its wa+eD t that "eriod, .uro"eans were
16
ama?ed at the inf!u6 to their countries of Cews who, they*d been to!d, had disa""eared forever. #he
cam"s for dis"!aced "ersons were fu!! of them. ;e have at our dis"osa! a great many "hotogra"hs
showing, in "articu!ar, Cewish youngsters arriving by train from 4entra! .uro"e or housed in count!ess
chi!dren*s homes. #heir "hysica! a""earance was identica! to that of chi!dren of nonGCewish
"o"u!ations of the time. s far as France is concerned, we +now that, of a Cewish "o"u!ation of about
&J(,(((, around MJ,M(( Cews, foreigners for the most "art, were de"orted, but we*re not to!d how
many survived. #he figure we*re sometimes given L ',J(( out of MJ,M'% L resu!ts from numerous
tric+s that I haven*t the time to !ist right now but I*ve e6"!ained them e!sewhere. If you want an idea of
how !arge and !ive!y the French Cewish community was on the morrow of the war I recommend you
!oo+ in a certain yearboo+ entit!ed E*nnuaire du -udaSsme. #he %IJ' edition describes, in K%J "ages,
the situation of French and wor!d Cewry. Ae!ieve me, it*s instructive. Ay itse!f, the number of Cewish
associations !isted, with te!e"hone numbers and addresses, is staggering. nd beho!d the f!ood today
of boo+s, memoirs, testimonies of 2miracu!ous3 Cewish survivors, not to mention the a""!ications for
indemnity or com"ensation.
2ut in 7ermany they never <uit repeating the figure of si, million 6ews either gone missing or killed@
it&s neither five nor seven but always si,.
.ven as conformist a historian as Martin Aros?at !ong ago admitted that it was a 2symbo!ic3 figure, that
is a mythica! one. I*!! add that it*s "art of the genera! Cewish symbo!ogy. Read the study, "ub!ished in
'((&, by $on Heddesheimer8 #he First Ho!ocaust. #he author demonstrates, with news"a"er
re"roductions to bac+ it u", that from the year %I(( L but it might be "ossib!e to go bac+ sti!! further
L the merican Cewish "ress was a!ready !aunching the s!ogan 20i6 mi!!ion .uro"ean Cews are
dying3. He "rovides e6am"!es from %I((, %I%I, %I'(, %I'), %I&H, %IK(. In Cewish circ!es it had
become a !eitmotiv. In Cerusa!em, the s"ecia!ists at the Nad 9ashem Memoria! set out, years ago, to
estab!ish a !ist of the names of the si6 mi!!ion Cews who died in the 2Ho!ocaust3. #hey have bare!y
reached three mi!!ion but on the basis, in good "art, of sim"!e unverified dec!arations emanating from
unverified sources and "rocessed in such a way that one and the same "erson can be recorded as
having died severa! times, even, it seems, as many as ten times. <n this sub-ect I recommend certain
studies "ub!ished in the FrenchG!anguage review Dubitando, "roduced in Ho!!and, whose contents can
be down!oaded at htt"8UUwww.aaargh.com.m6UfranUrevuUdubitando.
2ut, according to you, of what si0e may the number of 6ews be whose deaths were imputable to the
7ermans or their allies$
#here again, I*!! refer you to the 0uchdienst or Internationa! #racing 0ervice !ocated at Aad ro!sen, to
which nonGa""roved historians have been barred entry since %IMH.
Fair enough, but give us a figure as concerns the dead of +uschwit0.
<f the outrageous figures, the best +nown is that of four mi!!ion but there have been, even officia!!y,
rather higher ones. #he Nuremberg tribuna! decided on four mi!!ion1 it*s the figure that was inscribed
on the commemorative stones at uschwit?GAir+enau and which stayed there ti!! %II(. 0udden!y it
was removed and, in %IIJ, after five years of dithering, that of a mi!!ion and a ha!f was "ut in its "!ace
after being chosen by Eech ;a!esa, then "resident of the Po!ish Re"ub!ic. Aut those in charge of the
Museum there and the officia! historians or researchers reduced it anew to %,%((,(((, then
"rogressive!y to H((,(((, to a bit more than )((,((( and, fina!!y, in '((', to J%(,((( 7Frit-of Meyer:.
Persona!!y I rec+on that the tota! number of dead, Cewish and nonGCewish, for the entire duration of
uschwit?*s use by the Germans 7May %IK(GCanuary %IKJ: must have reached the !eve! L a
considerab!e one L of %'J,((( in the thirtyGnine cam"s of that vast com"!e61 those deaths are to be
"ut down, above a!!, to the ty"hus e"idemics whose devastating effects s"read even to the ran+s of
the Germans there and, in "articu!ar, to the medica! "ersonne! 7stri+ing, for e6am"!e, two head
"hysicians8 $rs Po"iersch and 0chwe!a:. I base this estimate on the data in the 0terbebPcher and a
few other documents. #he tota! of deaths registered therein is H(,(%( but, considering that a +nown
number of 0terbebPcher are missing, I su""ose this tota! must be "ut at around %'J,(((. s for the
figure of MK,((( that*s sometimes "ro"osed, it seems to me to have arisen from a -ourna!istic error.
17
1ou mention physicians at +uschwit0. %hat have you to say on the sub=ect of Dr 'engele$
I*ve !oo+ed into his case. I don*t be!ieve I*m wrong in stating that Cosef Menge!e was "robab!y one of
the most s!andered men of his era. In a!! !i+e!ihood, he deserved the re"utation, which he had amongst
his fe!!ow citi?ens of GPn?burg, of 2ein Bava!ier3. I*ve had a !oo+ through his manuscri"ts
7un"ub!ished:, which show a man stee"ed in GrecoGRoman cu!ture, very +een on science and curious
about everything. He didn*t hide it from his c!ose ac,uaintances that the gassing stories were "ure
invention. $uring a "osthumous showGtria! of Menge!e he!d in Cerusa!em before the wor!d*s te!evision
cameras, his 2victims3 came forth to im"ute the worst atrocities to him8 according to them, he used to
"in gougedGout human eyeba!!s on the wa!!s of his office, or "our acid into the eyes of his 2guinea
"igs3 to see whether it made them turn from b!ac+ to b!ue. #here*s hard!y a c!ass of things, rea! or
imagined, that !ends itse!f as readi!y to nonsensica! -abber as that of medica! monstrosities, es"ecia!!y
when they can be b!amed on a whiteGcoated 2Herr $o+tor3. Here it*s easy to have the !ayman be!ieve
any atrocity story at a!!. <n this score, I high!y recommend a boo+ by two Aritish !awyers about the
$ering case 7Mavis Hi!! V E. Norman ;i!!iams, uschwit? in .ng!and U Record of a Eibe! ction,
Eondon, MacGibbon and Bee, %I)J:. In his %IJI boo+ .6odus, the Cew Eeon /ris had the ga!! to write
that, from the beginning of his internment at uschwit?, the Po!ish surgeon ;!adis!aw !e6ander
$ering 7s"e!t $ehring by /ris: had carried out 2seventeen thousand surgica! e6"eriments without
anaesthesia3 on women. Note that figure, a!ong with the word 2e6"eriments3. fter the war, $r $ering
had sett!ed in .ng!and, then had "ractised in 0oma!ia and, fina!!y, went bac+ to .ng!and where he
received an <.A..., com"arab!e to our E=gion d*Honneur in France.
From "ri! %& to May ), %I)K there ran the tria! in Eondon of $ering*s !ibe! suit against /ris and his
"ub!isher. $uring the "roceedings, an e6traordinary ,uantity of !ies were to be e6"osed than+s,
es"ecia!!y, to the discovery of the records of surgica! o"erations "erformed in A!oc+ '% of uschwit?
where $r $ering had wor+ed. #he defendants were driven "rogressive!y to reduce the number of
dreadfu! o"erations im"uted to the retired surgeon. !so, the women became 2men and women3 and
the figure seventeen thousand was dro""ed and re"!aced by 2a very !arge number3, then 2a figure
between one hundred and two hundred3 and, at the end, it seems the defence sett!ed for the case of
three women identified on!y by their 4hristian names. ;hat*s more, it had to be ac+now!edged that the
o"erations had been done not without anaesthesia but with rachidian 7s"ina! co!umn: anaesthesia,
and a renowned .ng!ish anaesthetist testified that in his view $r $ering had been right to choose that
ty"e. dramatic moment arose when $r $ering was ab!e to "rove the surgica! records had been
fa!sified by their Po!ish custodians starting from a certain "age for ugust %IK&, a date when he was
no !onger "erforming o"erations and was no !onger in A!oc+ '%. #he Germans at uschwit? had
scru"u!ous!y +e"t those records, "art!y in Eatin, and with, I reca!!, the occasiona! mention of a 2casus
e6"!orativus3, the term a""!ied to surgica! tas+s "erformed 2in order to see3. $r $ering was to win his
case and be awarded damages of one farthing L a ,uarter of an o!d "ennyF #he -udge then ru!ed
"erem"tori!y that the "hysician, a!though he*d been abominab!y !ibe!!ed, wou!d have to bear court
costs, which were considerab!e, and denied him !eave to a""ea!. !! due to the fact that, throughout
the who!e tria!, the shadow of uschwit? and the 2gas chambers3, constant!y evo+ed L even by the
-udge L had never ceased to cast itse!f on the "!aintiff. If I reca!! correct!y $ering was to dec!are8
2Here I am ruined, but I*ve saved my honour3, and it seems he died not !ong afterwards.
-ome people will ask you the following <uestion> 82ut where did all those 6ews go, those who you say
weren&t e,terminated$9
My answer is8 2#o Pa!estine and fifty other countries throughout the wor!d, of which I can give you the
!ist3. good many of the near!y si6 mi!!ion Cews who today inhabit the 0tate of Israe! are 2survivors3 or
descendants of 2survivors3 of what they ca!! 2the Ho!ocaust3. Aesides, when 0teven 0"ie!berg decided
to !aunch his vast "ro-ect of gathering together fifty thousand survivors* 2testimonies3 he sent his
interviewers to about fifty countries of the wor!d1 that*s the number of countries to which those Cews
scattered after the war.
-ome participants at the conference held that, when the %ehrmacht started its offensive in the 5ast,
many 6ews fled or were transported towards the -oviet :nion@ what are your thoughts on this$
18
#hat*s ,uite correct, but it*s sti!! hard to rec+on the number of those Cews who sett!ed, for e6am"!e, in
/?be+istan 7#ash+ent, 0amar+and:, #a-i+istan or e!sewhere, "erha"s even in the Cewish autonomous
region of Airobi-an.
How do you account for the fact that almost all the former concentration camp inmates state they can
attest to the reality of the gas chambers there$
#hey*re re"eating a rumour that a!!ows them to grant themse!ves, with no inconvenience, the status of
heroes or miracu!ous survivors. #hey genera!!y do so ris+Gfree since there*s very !itt!e chance that
anyone wi!! "ut their bac+s to the wa!! and as+ for e6"!anations. $uring one of my tria!s, a su"erG
e6cited Cew came u" to me at the courtroom entrance shouting and showing me his uschwit?
registration tattoo. 2How dare you say the gas chambers didn*t e6istD3, he said. 2I*m a witness to their
e6istence.3 I !oo+ed him in the eye and to!d him8 2$escribe a gas chamber for me.3 Eosing his
com"osure, he answered8 2If I*d seen one I wou!dn*t be here to ta!+ to you about it.3 I then "ointed out
that, !i+e a!! the Cews who*d returned from uschwit?, he was rather a witness to there never having
been a "o!icy amongst the Germans of "hysica!!y e6terminating the Cews, since there he was, very
much a!ive. I*!! remind you that in %IHJ at the first 5Pnde! tria!, in #oronto, we had the rare chance to
crossGe6amine the Number <ne Cewish witness to the 2Ho!ocaust3, a certain Rudo!f 9rba. Eoo+ u" the
tria! transcri"ts to see how that arrogant individua! was in the end "ut to rout and how he had to
confess that, in his boo+ on uschwit?, re"uted to be so e6act and meticu!ous, he*d resorted to 2"oetic
!icence38 2!icentia "oetarum3 as he !et f!y, in Eatin.
+ccording to you, what happened to the 6ews selected on what&s called 8the +uschwit0 Aor 2irkenauB
ramp9$
#he men were "ut on one side and the women and chi!dren on the other. In se"arate co!umns, either on
foot or, for some, in !orries, they a!! went off to the 0auna where they showered and were disinfected.
Photos, we!!G+nown ones, from what*s ca!!ed #he uschwit? !bum attest to these arriva!s on the ram".
It*s in this sector that a footba!! ground 720"ort"!at?3: was !ocated, and the new!y arrived inmates cou!d
see it -ust beside the ram"1 there was a vo!!eyba!! court and there were a!so a great number of hos"ita!
barrac+s, at one side for the women, at the other for the men. It*s in this same sector that two big
crematoria stood f!an+ed by !itt!e gardens and visib!e from a!! around1 a!so, !arge sett!ing tan+s for
wastewater, shower and disinfection insta!!ations, vast storehouses for "ersona! be!ongings which, as
at the entrance to any "rison or any cam", were confiscated from the newcomers.
;hat do you ma+e of the s"eech given by do!f Hit!er at the Bro!! <"era House in Aer!in on Canuary
&(, %I&ID He said then L these were his words L 8 2If internationa! finance Cewry within .uro"e and
abroad shou!d succeed once more in "!unging the "eo"!es into a wor!d war, then the conse,uence wi!!
be not the Ao!shevisation of the wor!d and therewith a victory of Cewry, but on the contrary, the
destruction of the Cewish race in .uro"e3.
In that "reGwar s"eech there is "ositive!y no ,uestion of a "hysica! e6termination of the Cews. #o those
who were b!owing on the embers and desired with a!! their hearts a crusade against Germany, Hit!er
was saying in his way8 2$on*t harbour any i!!usions8 if you succeed in triggering a war, it*s not we who*!!
be annihi!ated but our 4ommunist and Cewish enemies3. I*!! refer you to the ana!ysis that the !ate
;i!he!m 0tWg!ich made of that dec!aration in $er uschwit? Mythos. $r 0tWg!ich a!so dea!t with
Heinrich Himm!er*s s"eeches at Posen, in %IK&, s"eeches to which "eo"!e in certain ,uarters have
tagged on the attentionGgrabbing ad-ective 2secret31 before and during the war, and u" to the very !ast
months, Himm!er tried everything he cou!d to convince the !!ies to ta+e the Cews, whom they seemed
to find so marve!!ous, into their own countries.
Therefore, contrary to what other historians say, for you that speech of Hitler&s doesn&t constitute proof
that he wanted to annihilate the 6ews.
<bvious!y not. nd you*!! no !onger find, I be!ieve, any historians who ho!d that it does.
+nd what do you say about +dolf Hitler&s political testament$ In it can be read, for instance>
19
82ut nor have I left any doubt that if the nations of 5urope are once more to be treated only as
collections of stocks and shares of these international conspirators in money and finance, then those
who carry the real guilt for the murderous struggle, this people will also be held responsible> the 6ews
Cdas 6udentumD. I have further left no one in doubt that this time it will not be only millions of children
of 5uropeans of the +ryan peoples who will starve to death, not only millions of grown men who will
suffer death, and not only hundreds of thousands of women and children who will be burned and
bombed to death in the cities, without those who are really responsible also having to atone for their
crime, even if by more humane means Cwenn auch durch humanere 'ittelD9.
2y 8more humane means9 didn&t Hitler mean 8the gas chambers9$
Pure s"ecu!ationF Hit!er signed that te6t on "ri! 'I, %IKJ, that is the eve of his suicide 7!et*s note in
"assing that, according to the 9u!gate, the 2gas chambers3 had no !onger been o"erating since !ate
November %IKK:. He had before him the a""a!!ing s"ectac!e of a country !aid to waste and its men,
women and chi!dren being systematica!!y torched with "hos"horous. He "romises those behind this
inhuman war that they*!! have to atone for their crime but not, a!! the same, through the horrib!e and
barbarous means that the !!ies were using. #he "innac!e of horror is to go and burn "eo"!e a!ive. It
was the Aritish !eaders, 4hurchi!! at their head, who, as of %IK(G%IK%, decided that from then on war
wou!d be waged systematica!!y on the German civi!ians and who, to that "ur"ose, undertoo+ the
"roduction of heavy bomber aircraft designed to destroy the German cities. /nti! then, mi!itary men
strict!y !imited themse!ves to ma+ing war against other mi!itary men and, when they did ha""en to +i!!
civi!ians, they "ut the case, right!y or wrong!y, that it was as a conse,uence L a regrettab!e one L of
mi!itary action 7for e6am"!e, during a tactica! bombardment:. #he Aritish gent!emen were innovators in
the art of war8 on the one hand, they e!ected to s!aughter German civi!ians systematica!!y in order to
ma+e the o""osing mi!itary !eaders give in and, on the other hand, they went about stirring u" and
maintaining the cowards* war, that of sni"ers or 2R=sistants3, against German so!diers. #here might
have been some courage in b!owing onese!f u" with a bomb to +i!! some of the enemy in the "rocess
but there was hard!y any in the sni"er who acted under cover and then f!ed the scene, thus witting!y
setting off b!oody re"risa!s against numerous innocent "eo"!e. 0oviet savagery and merican bruta!ity
then -oined in. From Hit!er*s "oint of view, the unnatura! a!!iance of the 4ity*s and ;a!! 0treet*s
ca"ita!ism with Muscovite 4ommunism had been sea!ed in the de!iberate ho!ocaust of the German
"eo"!e1 the r+ of the 4ovenant between those two o""osites united the Cews of the who!e wor!d, so
"owerfu! and inf!uentia! "articu!ar!y in the financia! s"heres of the .ng!ishGs"ea+ing countries, in the
media and in the internationa! 4ommunist movement. #he German historian .rnst No!te had a!ready
offered me that argument of the 2more humane means3 being evidence of the gas chambers*
e6istence. It goes to show how destitute of rea! evidence such historians are.
Doesn&t the report of the 2erlin3%annsee conference prove the e,istence of a plan to e,terminate the
6ews$
Not in the !east. /ndated, unsigned, bearing no stam" of any bureau, this "iece has the !oo+ of a draft
re"ort te!!ing of a meeting he!d on Canuary '(, %IK' in the Aer!in suburbs. Nowhere is it a ,uestion of
+i!!ing or e6terminating the Cews but, for those Cews ab!e to wor+, of evacuation eastwards for them to
be "ut to wor+, whi!st those aged )J and over were to be sent to #heresienstadt, in Aohemia. #here
a""ears severa! times in this document the e6"ression 2fina! so!ution of the Cewish ,uestion in
.uro"e3, which is sometimes shortened to 2fina! so!ution of the Cewish ,uestion3 or to 2fina! so!ution3 or
even, ,uite sim"!y, to 2so!ution3. #he origina! "hrase, in its com"!ete form, was 2a fina! territoria!
so!ution of the Cewish ,uestion3 7understood8 the Cewish ,uestion in .uro"e:. certain Martin Euther,
underGsecretary of 0tate in the German foreign office, em"!oyed that "hrase on "age K of his famous
memorandum of ugust '%, %IK'. #hat ad-ective 2territoria!3 means that the ,uestion wi!! have to be
sett!ed by finding the Cews a territory of their own1 any other so!ution wou!d be inade,uate. For if, for
e6am"!e, after the war, the Cews became free again in .uro"e, they wou!d soon, as history shows,
manage to regain their "ower and inf!uence there1 whereas, in the event of a transfer for good
somewhere outside .uro"e, those who*d survived the hardshi"s entai!ed wou!d ma+e u" an e!ite
ca"ab!e of forming the germina! ce!! of a Cewish renewa!. It*s si!!y to ta!+ here of an e6termination
"ro-ect. .ven Nehuda Aauer, "rofessor at Hebrew /niversity in Cerusa!em, ended u", in %II',
20
denouncing 2the si!!y story of ;annsee3. He stated8 2#he "ub!ic sti!! re"eats, time after time, the si!!y
story that at ;annsee the e6termination of the Cews was arrived at3.
-ome claim that the number of 6ews killed by the 7ermans doesn&t matter. %hether it&s a <uestion of
si, million, two million or E"",""", the crime remains enormous.
#he remar+ is a common one. In my -udgment I*ve a!ready answered it, in substance, by showing you
that Germany never had a "o!icy of e6terminating the Cews. #hat said, figures matter, and sometimes
they even matter great!y. First of a!!, there*s an im"ortant difference between dying and being +i!!ed.
#hen, it*s far more grave an act to +i!! a mass of "eo"!e than one "erson a!one. Fina!!y, the difference
between si6 mi!!ion and J((,((( being J,J((,(((, there you have, in any case, J,J((,((( "ersons
who, instead of having died or been +i!!ed, turn out to be we!! and tru!y a!ive. 0ti!!, when a modestG
si?ed community can c!aim that si6 mi!!ion of its members have been methodica!!y done away with 7si6
mi!!ion being the e,uiva!ent of the "o"u!ation of a country !i+e 0wit?er!and:, it wi!! obtain, most
assured!y, more com"assion from the rest of the wor!d than if it on!y invo+es the figure of J((,(((
dead or +i!!ed. ;ith si6 mi!!ion dead or +i!!ed it can demand and obtain a good dea! more mora!
understanding, financia! com"ensation, assorted "owers and "rivi!eges. For a sma!! "eo"!e, the abi!ity
to boast of being a mi!!ionaire si6 times over in dead or murdered o"ens u" the chance to demand and
garner, with no great difficu!ty, bi!!ions in hard cash. 0hoah estimated at si6 mi!!ion victims is the
guarantee of a 20hoah business3 that wi!! bear fruit "ro"ortionate!y. Ay this I don*t mean that !ies have
been to!d and e6aggerations made in order to ma+e money or ac,uire "rivi!eges. Eies have been to!d
and the subse,uent success of the !ies has been turned to good account.
+re you of the opinion that 7ermany has contracted a moral responsibility towards Israel and the
6ews, a responsibility that must also be borne in the form of financial reparations$
I am rather of the o"inion of the merican author rthur Robert Aut?, the Number <ne revisionist. #he
te6t of his master!y boo+, #he Hoa6 of the #wentieth 4entury, ends with this comment on the co!ossa!
German 2re"arations38 2Q it then deve!o"s that Israe! owes Germany a !ot of money, because the
"ro"osed -ustification for the re"arations has been inva!idated3. It is worth noting that the German
version of the boo+ is, on this "oint, rather different and, unha""i!y, !ess c!earGcut.
In your view, do the 6ews who survived the -econd %orld %ar deserve financial compensation$
!! the true victims of that atrocious conf!ict and its aftermath deserve res"ect, consideration and
indemnity1 amongst the victims I shou!d mention, in "articu!ar, the Germans L but not their !eaders L
and the entire Pa!estinian "eo"!e.
+re you an anti3-emite, that is an enemy of the 6ews$
Nou mean antiGCewish. No, I don*t consider myse!f antiGCewish as I don*t wish the Cews any i!!. I don*t
wish for anyone to touch a hair on their head, if on!y so as not to have to hear them ye!! sti!! more
!oud!y. ;hat I do want, on the other hand, is for them not to do me any harm1 nor to others. I want the
deafening drumming of their ho!ocaustic "ro"aganda to end, drumming behind which one can a!! too
often ma+e out the drum ro!!s !eading u" to new wars. #here are none so whining and war!i+e as that
Cewish, 5ionist and neoGcon nomen+!atura which never ,uits demanding censorshi", re"ression, wars
and crusades in the name of the 2Ho!ocaust3, that is in the name of an es"ecia!!y degrading !ie.
+re you a racist$
No.
%hat future do you wish for 8the Holocaust9$
If by that word are meant, a!! together, the a!!eged "o!icy of "hysica! e6termination of the Cews, the
a!!eged Na?i gas chambers and the a!!eged 0i6 Mi!!ion, I wish that abominab!e s!ander a s"eedy end
in the rubbish bins of history. s an academic, I want it to be "ossib!e to write on the 0econd ;or!d
;ar without having to dread the effects of s"ecia! !aws "ut on the boo+s at the behest of the Cewish
nomen+!atura. Hit!er died more than si6ty years ago and it remains 2streng verboten3 to write 2on3
Hit!er1 one may write on!y 2against3 Hit!er. #his is either chi!dishness or e!se treating "eo"!e !i+e
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chi!dren. I wish to see us a!! entit!ed to write about him -ust as we*re a!!owed to do with Na"o!eon,
4hurchi!! or 0ta!in.
Have you a word to say in conclusion$
My conc!usion is that we are here in #ehran the day after a conference, he!d on $ecember %%th and
%'th of '((), dea!ing with 2the Ho!ocaust3. #hat conference was tru!y internationa!. ;e*d have !i+ed to
see and hear Rau! Hi!berg and Norman Fin+e!stein. #he !atter says the revisionists are 2crac+"ots3,
!unatics. If he*d come here, I*d have as+ed him ,uite "o!ite!y in what res"ect I "ersona!!y deserved that
e"ithet, and I*d a!so have in,uired as to what writings of ours he might in fact have read before
"ronouncing such a -udgment on revisionist authors. #he conference ended with the forming of a
2Ho!ocaust3 research grou", with an Iranian, $r Ramin, as its "resident and, "rovisiona!!y, five
members8 an ustra!ian, a Ariton, a $ane, a Frenchman and a 0wiss. #he year '(() wi!! go down in
history, not -ust the history of Iran but that of the who!e wor!d as we!!. Iran, this ama?ing country, wi!!
have had the heroism, in one and the same year, to say no, first to merican im"eria!ism, then to the
2Ho!ocaust3 crusaders. I won*t hide it from you that this heroism scares me. Perha"s President
hmadine-ad wi!! in future have to "ay dear!y for his temerity.
%ere you able to have a word with him$
Nes, we ta!+ed for a few minutes face to face, amidst a !ot of other conference "artici"ants. I
e6"ressed my admiration for his courage, a!ong with our gratitude for this astonishing seminar, o"en to
a!!, revisionists and nonGrevisionists a!i+e. #o me, the one whom the wor!d "ress de"icts as a
dangerous fanatic a""eared, both in his c!osing s"eech and in our brief conversation, to be a man of
refined s"irit, sincere and softGs"o+en. nd besides, you +now he*s never said that the 0tate of Israe!
must be 2wi"ed off the ma"3, but he has thought it enough to ado"t a "hrase of the !ate yato!!ah
Bhomeini, in whose view the 5ionist 0tate wou!d one day be erased from the chart of time and history.
He*s e6"ressed the o"inion that in the Midd!e .ast 5ionism is bound to disa""ear -ust as 4ommunism
did in Russia. He wishes to see a!! the communities in Pa!estine, inc!uding the Cewish community, find
their res"ective "!aces one again. Hence that de!egation of si6 rabbis at the conference, wearing a
sort of badge with the message that they were Cews but not 5ionists. s I*ve to!d you, I myse!f
conversed and got on ,uite we!! with two of those rabbis. <ne of them said to me, in the "resence of a
witness8 2I as+ your forgiveness for what Rthey* have done to you, if it*s at a!! forgivab!e3. #o which I
re"!ied 2Eet*s stay united3, meaning we shou!d ma+e a united stand against those who, ho!ding a!! the
"ower, abuse that e6cess of "ower.
1ou&ve paid dearly for this revisionist struggle that you&ve been waging since, at least, ?FG.
Nes, I*ve "aid dear!y but !ess so than other revisionists. I*m ta!+ing not on!y about the "hysica! assau!ts
that I*ve had to endure and the hos"ita!isations but a!so of the ava!anche of court cases and,
sometimes, their scanda!ous outcome. I*m we!! "!aced to +now that with regard to a revisionist, as
former!y with regard to sorcerers or witches, the -udges, a"art from a few e6ce"tions, no !onger
recognise any mora! "rinci"!es, any !aws, any rights. s for the media, they*ve hea"ed onto my name
an e6travagant !oad of abuse, insu!ts, s!anders. In over thirty years they*ve never s"ontaneous!y
offered me the chance to "resent my defence. ;ith but one e6ce"tion8 in $ecember %IH(, on the
radio, I had the time to utter a si6tyGword sentence summing u" the findings of my research, but the
a6e came down in the form of a !awsuit and -udgment against me "recise!y because of that sentence.
It*s a disgrace that, from %IMK to the "resent day, -ourna!ists have been ab!e to say my name a
hundred thousand times to brand me as a 2gangster of history3 without a sing!e one of them ever
as+ing me for an interview, if on!y to hear me ta!+ for a few minutes in my defence. No !ess distressing
is the genera! si!ence of my co!!eagues, French academics and inte!!ectua!s who otherwise are so
,uic+ to "roc!aim their desire to defend the freedom of in,uiry. #he merican Noam 4homs+y has, on
one occasion, s"o+en u" in favour of my right to freedom of e6"ression but, since then, he*s on!y ever
s"o+en of revisionists as of 2crac+"ots3. #he on!y "eo"!e in France to ta+e the ris+ of defending me
have been, besides my !awyer 7and his friends:, Pierre Gui!!aume, 0erge #hion, CeanGGabrie! 4ohnG
Aendit 7and their friends, amongst whom the courageous Cacob ssous:. Aut I have no right to
com"!ain if I com"are my !ot with that of so many other revisionists, to begin with the heroic .rnst
22
5Pnde! and a good number of other Germans or ustrians who either have e6"erienced !ong years of
im"risonment or wi!! be im"risoned in future. In 0weden, the everGsteadfast hmed Rami has himse!f
a!so tasted "rison !ife. nd then we were saved by the Internet. Maybe I*ve been !uc+y. I shou!dn*t say
the same for my wife and chi!dren.
%ill you agree to let this interview be published$
Nes, on condition that you submit the te6t to me and that, if need be, I may ma+e corrections and
additions, either on my own initiative or at your re,uest.
Then we&re agreed. I thank you.
$an+e sehr. nd, addressing myse!f to your country, I*!! add8 2rmes $eutsch!andF3 >Poor GermanyF@.
Eeider. >/nfortunate!y@
Eeider.
#H. .N$
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