Water Treatment & Distribution - Demineralised Water - Effect On 304 Stainless Steel

8/21/2014 Water treatment & distribution - Demineralised water - Effect on 304 Stainless Steel
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Demineralised water - Effect on 304 Stainless Steel
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Graham58 (Industrial) (OP) 22
Oct
12
4:34
We have a customer who is requesting that we remove a 304 Stainless Steel ring main and replace for plastic due to corrosion issues associated with
passing Demineralised water through the pipe work. I have always been of the thinking that Stainless should be fine for this application. Does anyone
have any comments? The quality of the water will be in the region of 1 - 5 Microseimens. Many thanks

bimr
(Civil/Environmental) 22
Oct
12
7:24
Demineralized water will not be corrosiive in the absence of oxygen. With oxygen present, the water will tend to be somewhat corrosive. However, you
should still expect a reasonable service life from stainless. 316 stainless steel will be a better choice.

CorBlimeyLimey
(Mechanical) 27
Oct
12
13:49
See also thread338-206134: Demineralized Water Corrosion on Carbon Steel for some more details.

mxmaciek
(Chemical) 21
Nov
12
9:14
Carbon dioxide (if present) would cause corrosion as well (5uS is deionized water rather than demineralized one, so I'd expect some sodium which can
mask the CO2 in pH reading).
IRstuff (Aerospace) 21
Nov
12
10:18
This report from NASA is pretty interesting. They claim that 304SS does not corrode in DI water, but they ran their test only for about a month, and
there's not much in the way of details about the DI water.
TTFN
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stanier
(Mechanical) 21
Nov
12
17:00
Have you researched www.nidi.org on this matter. Nalco's Guide to Boiler Failure Analysis may also cover it. this book is avaialbale in electronic form in
a number of institution virtual libraries.
The beautiful thing about learning is that no one can take it away from you.
---B.B. King
http://waterhammer.hopout.com.au/
mxmaciek (Chemical) 22
Nov
12
1:44
From my experience, the standard material would be:
raw water (inland, river, lake, pond) - carbon steel;
raw water (brackish, estuary, sea) - 304/316/PP/PE
decationized water (after cation exchanger, strong, pH around 3-4) - PVC/PP/PE (temperature depending: PVC below 40C, PP/PE up to 80C, steel above -
can be lined)
demineralized water (after cation-anion or RO, conductivity up to 5uS, pH 7-9.5) - as above, but if steel then 316
deionized water (conductivity up to 1uS, pH 6.5-8) - plastic or lined steel
last two of above, thermally degassed to oxygen content below 100ppb as micrograms of O2 - plastic, if temperature would allow.
In general, indoor pipelines with temperature below 40C - PVC, 40-80: PE/PP, above 80C - steel.
Last but not least:plastic is far cheaper, have 20years of lifetime, and is much cheaper and easier to modify or repair.
Graham58 (Industrial) (OP) 22
Nov
12
3:47
Many thanks to all of you who have responded to my (first) thread. I have now decided that we will replace the 314 ring main with Class E ABS. Thanks
again for your input
bimr (Civil/Environmental) 24
Nov
12
15:39
Demineralized water and deionized water are the same thing.
There will be no carbon dioxide in demineralized water. The anion will remove the carbon dioxide. The pH of demineralized water is normally a pH of 10
since the efflluent is in the form of sodium hydroxide.
Some power plants are successfully operating carbon steel boiler systems with demineralized water. The secret is the water must be oxygen free.
Nov
12
15:45
Demineralized water and deionized water are basically the same thing. There is no carbon dioxide present in demineralized water because carbon
dioxide is removed by the anion unit. The pH of demineralized water is 10 because the demineralized effluent is in the form of sodium hydroxide.
Some power plants operate carbon steel piping systems with demineralized water. The reason that this works is that there is zero oxygen presnt.
Nov
12
23:27
Unless the water loops are completely sealed, it's pretty hard to have no air in the system. Most DI water systems run the water into a holding tank,
which can have some air in it, resulting in a slightly acidic water from the dissolved CO2. Note that DI water is ph 7, i.e. it is neutral.
TTFN
Nov
12
3:01
@bimr:
deionized water: water after one or two stages of RO, typically with conductivity around 5uS. Same is if the final stage is anion exchanger only, without
mixed bed or EDI.
demineralized water: water after mixed bed ion exchanger or EDI, typically with direct conductivity below 1uS.
Same time, demineralized water pH would be around of 7. Deionized water ph will be alkaline ONLY after the anion exchanger, after RO it will be close to
neutral.
Both water: in case of storage in tank which is not fit with carbon dioxide trap (e.g. with Sofnolime), it will absorb carbon dioxide from atmospheric air.
About the "oxygen free" water for use with boiler - especially for the low pressure sections - it is a simplest way to introduce flow accelerated corrosion
in the system. Please refer for example to "Cycle Chemistry Guidelines for Fossil Plants: Oxygenated Treatment, EPRI, Palo Alto, CA:2005. 1004925."
From my practice, to avoid FAC in LP systems (both, in HRSG and "normal" coal boilers) it is necessary to introduce 2% Cr steel to exposed regions
and/or to DOSE oxygen to keep it from 20-100ppb.
Nov
12
18:59
mxmaciek,
With due respects, the post above was meant to correct some of the previous posts. Instead, additional further erroneous posts are added.
Water treatment professionals would not equate RO effluent and demineralized water. They are different.
RO effluent typically has a lower pH because carbon dioxide passes through the membrane.
For example, "Demineralisation" Any process used to remove minerals from water, however, commonly the term is restricted to ion exchange processes.
http://www.lenntech.com/applications/process/demin...
RO effluent is not considered to be demineralized water. There are too many ionic elements still present in the RO effluent since RO process are
generally guaranteed to remove about 90% of the ionic elements whereas ion exchange systems remove about 100%. The effluent from a cation unit is
also not demineralized water either, since you have removed just 50% of the ionic parameters.
Definition of demineralization from the Environmental Engineering Dictionary:
Water which has been passed through a mixed-bed ion exchanger to remove soluble ionic impurities. Nonelectrolytes and Colloids are not removed from
water so treated. Also referred to as Deionized Water.
http://www.ecologydictionary.org/DEMINERALIZED_WAT...
Regarding absorption of Carbon Dioxide from air. If this is a concern, many facilities use nitrogen blanketing of storage tanks to prevent this from
occuring. If carbon dioxide was present in demineralized water, one would assume that you have demineralized water that has been contaminanted.
In conventional all-volatile treatment (AVT) for boilers, the water quality is adjusted using ammonia to control pH and hydrazine as a deoxidant. Because
dissolved oxygen is thought to be a corrosive component, its concentration is minimized and the boiler feed-water pH is adjusted to prevent
corrosion. Oxygenated treatment (OT), on the other hand, is based on the theory that slightly soluble oxides adhered to the surface of steel can prevent
steel corrosion and elute corrosion products into water. OT includes neutral water treatment (NWT), in which dissolved oxygen is allowed to
coexist in neutral water, and CWT, in which dissolved oxygen is allowed to coexist in weak alkaline water adjusted to a range of pH 8.0 to 9.3 by
ammonia. Boiler piping systems for these systems utilize carbon steel piping.
Finally, the effluent of a demineralizer is 10 (NOT pH 7) because the demineralized effluent is in the form of sodium hydroxide ionic species. Sodium
leakage occurs from the cation unit and hydroxide leakage occurs from the anion unit.
Nov
12
1:57
@bimr: thanks for the explanation, first, it seems that during last 22 years I was doing everything completely wrong!!!
What is more, I know several organizations, which should now shut their water treatment down as they are using wrong equipment.
But, following the above, could you please explain me how are you obtaining the sodium hydroxide in the final effluent of mixed bed (typical in my, again:
totally wrong, setups final stage of demineralization)?
I see only two alternatives:
1. to bypass mixed bed at all;
2. to regenerate the anion exchanger poorly (e.g. by not finishing the mixed bed final flushing in recirc mode).
Anyway, I'm happy that you discovered a way to avoid ammonia dosing in your installations, as you stated above: demin plant effluent pH value is 10, so
please compare it with pH requirements for feedwater and cycle params.
It seems that most of Utilities are wasting ammonia and phosphate, huh? Instead, maybe they should start acid dosing to decrease pH of feed water from
mentioned by you 10 to around 9?
Finally, "Oxygenated treatment (OT), on the other hand, is based on the theory that slightly soluble oxides adhered to the surface of steel can prevent
steel corrosion and elute corrosion products into water." - it is wrong.
In AVT-R regime you have protective layer of magnetite (Fe3O4). In some systems, where two phases or single phase turbulent, directed flow occurs
(e.g. in bends, header inlets etc) in specific pressure/temperature conditions (again: typically in LP systems), the mmagnetite layer is stripped out. In
AVT-R regime, there is no conditions to restore protective layer, therefore lower pH and some oxygen injection is applied to promote oxides (mixture of
hematite and magnetite) growth. In addition to that, many of HRSG owners have replaced the exposed locations to 2-3% Cr steels, as FAC occurs ONLY
in carbon steel (of course: too much chromium would cause SCC in such chemical conditions, but this is another story).
To shorten, it seems that you (surprisingly) have not too much experience with professional generation utilities? I'd be curious if you could give the
example of power station where the final stage of makeup water treatment is NOT the mixed bed or EDI, but to shorten the thread - please direct it as
PM.
Nov
12
8:05
You seem to be extrapolating based. Why are you assuming that this is a power plant when the original post only mentions a demineralizer? A better
assumption would be that this is some type of ultrapure water system loop.
Assume that the effluent from a demineralizer is less than 1 ppm. Would not that 1 ppm be sodium hydroxide? If not, what is it? Would also expect you to
inderstand that there is essentially no buffering capacity in demineralized water.
Don't believe that I mentioned anything about condensate polishing in the ammonia cycle in any of the above comments either.
The original poster's enquiry was about corrosion of a piping system with demineralized water. The only thing that can be stated with the known
information is that the corrosion is probably caused by oxygen.
Nov
12
2:09
Sorry, but it seems that you are adopting the reality to your theories.
First, it can be everything, starting from the traces of chlorides from cation exchanger, via the slip of carbon dioxide, silica, ammonia or sodium.
But OK, lets follow your assumption that it is 1ppm of sodium.
Therefore, from the commonly known table, assuming that there is absence of other impurities, you will have: pH=9.4, conductivity of 6.2uS/cm.
Sorry, but it is NOT ultrapure water for whatever reason you'd like to use it.
Lets go further, pH of 10, you said? so again, lets assume, as you want, that all of it is caused by sodium only.
Therefore, the amount of sodium would be 4ppm, with the conductivity of 24.8uS/cm (the conductivity, contrary to pH, is directly proportional to sodium
ions concentration).
If you could not find the tables, although commonly available, here is a set of graphs:
Nov
12
2:54
I'm not sure where this discussion is going, but DI water, as used by the semiconductor industry, is run through resin beds, RO, UV, and polishing filters.
The end result is 18 megohm-cm, pH 7 water. The 18 megohm-cm translates to 0.06 uS/cm. Anything worse than that is unusable for semiconductor
processing. We would have thrown product into the trashcan if the resistivity ever dropped below 18 megohm-cm. Based on your graph, that would be
0.1 ppm Na or less. Anything more than that, the sodium contamination would render the transistors useless.
TTFN
Nov
12
3:35
@Rstuff - this is exactly what I mean (sorry if not explicated precisely enough - English is not my primary language), that so called "ultrapure" water
NEEDS polishing and in any case, on the makeup plant outlet cannot have pH around 10.
Nov
12
12:24
Thank you for the clarification. I understand now that the issue is really your english, not water treatment and I can't help you with that. My point all along
is that you have been posting inaccurate descriptions, comments and replies. You may understand water treatment but lack the ability to communicate it.
Enough said.

mxmaciek
(Chemical) 29
Nov
12
1:47
So finally we have the consensus. I have some difficulties with English, you have some difficulties with water treatment, especially: polishing, knowledge
what the final effluent parameters requirements are and last but not least: basic chemistry principles.
As result, you were posting grammatically accurate descriptions, comments and replies, which were completely inaccurate from process point of view.
Dec
12
13:51
Not so fast, mxmaciek. Review your own comments which are shown in quotes.
mxmaciek posts "Same time, demineralized water pH would be around of 7"
then why mxmaciek do you post graphs that show that the pH will not be 7?:
mxmaciek posts "Carbon dioxide (if present) would cause corrosion as well (5uS is deionized water rather than demineralized one, so I'd expect some
sodium which can mask the CO2 in pH reading)."
mxmaciek, deionized water and demineralized water are the same thing. In addition, carbon dioxide is never present in the effluent of deionized water
and/or demineralized water production equipment.
mxmaciek posts "deionized water: water after one or two stages of RO, typically with conductivity around 5uS. Same is if the final stage is anion
exchanger only, without mixed bed or EDI.
demineralized water: water after mixed bed ion exchanger or EDI, typically with direct conductivity below 1uS."
mxmaciek, deionized water and demineralized water are the same thing. For example, Lenntech's definition of demineralisation: Any process used to
remove minerals from water, however, commonly the term is restricted to ion exchange processes.
http://www.lenntech.com/applications/process/demin...
No competent water treatment professional would consider RO effluent (without additional treatment) to be demineralized water. There are many ionic
elements still present in the RO effluent since the RO process is typically guaranteed to remove only about 90% of the ionic elements whereas ion
exchange systems remove about 100%. The effluent from a cation unit is also not considered to be demineralized water either, since you have removed
just 50% of the ionic parameters in the cationic demineralizer unit.
mxmaciek states "after RO it will be close to neutral."
mxmaciek, a mid-career water treatment professional like yourself should know that RO effluent typically has a lower pH than neutral because carbon
dioxide passes through the membrane and will depress the pH until the carbon dioxide is removed.
Dec
12
7:08
dear bmir, let's start from... an end this time.
When you'll be on that stage of career in water treatment, you'll discover such units like CO2 degassers added before RO to decrease the load, as a
standard in developed installations designed not for home users.
Sorry, but you're contrary to yourself. I can provide several installations [working, not existing in Lenntech (there are many other companies, did you
know that?) web page only] which RO effluent is on or slightly below 5uS. This stage is frequently (for me, because for you it seems to be something
new) used without polishing for example to fill and maintain the district heating circuits, where use of polished below 1uS water would be waste of
chemicals.
By the way, part of the stream usually is polished, in the amount needed to feed the steam cycle.
Anyway, it is entertaining to see some professional stating that "you have removed just 50% of the ionic parameters in the cationic demineralizer unit.",
as during whole of my education some people were trying to convince me that on cation exchanger only I'm just replacing metal and other cations (like
ammonia) with the hydrogen one (or sodium, depending from the regeneration media: brine or acid), and ionic load remains same.
Finally, about the pH of 7: as you can see on the graph, it starts with NaOH content of 0.1ppm, which gives pH of 8.4. I'm sure that having some
knowledge what the pH is, you can calculate what would be the concentration of OH- ions for pH of 7.5, right? Alternatively, you could use software like
the Visual Minteq.
Last but not least: carbon dioxide is a common problem in pure water applications. and for me it is a surprise that you do not know it... I'll disclose you a
secret: you can have perfectly pure water leaving your EDI or mixed bed, and same time you can face CO2 problem in application. This is the effect of
installation of (another surprise for you) equipment called: demin water storage tank (do not mix up with feed water tank), and mysterious phenomenons
called air ingress and CO2 dissolution in the pure water. It will even speed up in the presence of sodium ions causing equilibrium movement due to the
formation of sodium carbonate and bicarbonate.
I think that you must be a lucky man, if you did not experienced such issues yet.
If you'd be interested, I can provide you with more details, but I propose private messages exchange rather than this thread.
Dec
12
10:38
The graph shown is useless for defining DI water for semiconductor processing. If your semiconductor industry DI water is anywhere near 0.1 ppm NaOH,
it's seriously fubar and unusable for processing of wafers.
Perhaps there is a simple difference of nomenclature. There are many levels of DI water, but the semiconductor industry only uses the purest level:
http://tmasc.com/di%20water%20specs.htm
TTFN
Dec
12
12:14
mxmaciek and irstuff for that matter,
This posting started off with a simple question about demineralized water and corrosion. The original post stated demineralized water without any details
about the application. Demineralized water is a very basic concept, but is limited by definition. (Some even want to argue about definition of
demineralized water.)
What it has turned into is an off topic extraneous discussion about all sorts of assumptions where a oouple of people with some experience in water
treatment are making all sorts of assumptions.
People are posting about degasifiers, condensate polishing, RO systems, carbon dioxide dissolution, water for processing ssemiconductor, storage tanks,
power plant water treatment, mixed bed units, water quality and on and on. It is obvious that you have not worked long enough to have had the joke
about the word ass/u/me cross your desks.
Demineralized water is not synonymous with condensate, or ultrapure water, or RO water, or decationized water, etc.
Would strongly suggest that you read:
Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
Dec
12
14:12
Quote:
This posting started off with a simple question about demineralized water and corrosion. The original post stated demineralized water
without any details about the application. Demineralized water is a very basic concept, but is limited by definition. (Some even want to
argue about definition of demineralized water.)
What it has turned into is an off topic extraneous discussion about all sorts of assumptions where a oouple of people with some
experience in water treatment are making all sorts of assumptions.
That's, of course, your opinion, but you concede that the OP never specified his "demineralized water," so I fail to see why attempting to define the
problem is off topic. Obviously, the OP is AWOL, but the fact that people continue to disagree about the definition suggests that this was never a "simple
question."
TTFN
Dec
12
0:10
Yes, the OP never specified his "demineralized water,". But a water industry person will not say demineralized water is synonymous with condensate, or
ultrapure water, or RO water, or decationized water, etc. Someone with limited experience may think those terms are interchangeable.
Dec
12
2:00
But, he's obviously not a "water industry person" so we have no idea what he meant or thought he was talking about.
TTFN
Dec
12
2:25
OK, going to definitions: demineralised water is water without any ionic impurities, with the conductivity of 0.055uS, and pH of 7.0
This is definition not related with water industry, but purely chemical. Please do not mix with distilled water or ultra pure water, this last would be with
organics and non-ionic compounds removed as well (@IRStuff: I think you'll agree with that).
Regarding the demineralised water, and common use of ion exchange - the ionic impurities level can be reduced to (according the spec of existing plant
after one year in service, so NO brand new resins):
- fluoride 0.1
- acetate 0.3
- formate 0.3
- chloride 0.7
- sulfate 0.7
- sodium 0.1
- ammonia 0.5
- magnesium 0.0(nd)
- calcium 0.6
all above values in ppb or ug/L, resulting with the conductivity of 0.058uS/cm
And again, not in water industry, but in power applications, these values are nothing unusual, as if you really need the pure output, you can look into the
special resins with e.g. chloride leak below 30ppt (ng/L).
finally, I think that OP is not interested in this thread anymore, otherwise he would precise his specs...
Dec
12
10:39
Again, there's no proof that the OP was even vaguely aware of whether he understood what "demineralized" meant.
TTFN
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