Transcription of Episode 69 Revolutionary Culture

Participants:
Adam B. Levine AL! " #ost
Andreas Antonopoulos AA! " Co"#ost
$tep%anie &urp%y $&! " Co"#ost
Tatiana &oro' T&! " &usician
&ic%ael (oldstein &(! " )ounder of t%e $atos%i *a+amoto ,nstitute
-os% .erlan -.! " E/ecutive of Butter0y La1s
Adam B. Levine: #i and 2elcome to episode 69 of Let3s Tal+ Bitcoin4 a t2ice
2ee+ly s%o2 a1out t%e ideas4 people and pro5ects 1uildin6 t%e di6ital economy
and t%e future of money. 7isit us at letstal+1itcoin.com for our daily 6uest 1lo64
all our past episodes4 and4 of course4 tippin6 addresses.
&y name is Adam B. Levine and t%e %olidays are %ere4 every movement needs it
culture and Tatiana &oro' is at t%e forefront of t%e 0ed6lin6 Bitcoin one. 8it% a
ne2 son6 out implorin6 you to spend Bitcoin 2%enever you pay4 Andreas cau6%t
up 2it% %er at t%e Latin America Bitcoin Conference to tal+ cultural revolutions
and revolutionary cultures. T%en4 &ic%ael (oldstein is a founder of t%e $atos%i
*a+amoto ,nstitute to preserve and promote t%e %istory of ideas t%at led to
Bitcoin. #e and $tep%anie tal+ Cyp%erpun+s and Cryptocas%4 it3s a 6ood one and
remem1er " Cyp%erpun+s 2rite code.
Later4 Tis t%e season9 Andreas4 $tep%anie and , tal+ Bitcoin c%arities and t%e 6ift
of Bitcoin to loved ones4 , tal+ a1out my personal laya2ay plan and stretc%in6
out your time %ori'ons for fun and pro:t. ;ou as+ed4 %ere it is a C%ristmas
se6ment9 And :nally4 -os% .erlan is an e/ecutive 2it% Butter0y La1s " #e sat
do2n 2it% Andreas to tal+ e/pectation mana6ement and e/ponential
tec%nolo6ies4 pre"orders and production. T%is is a lon6 one4 so let3s 6et to it.
8%at< ;ou 2anted to ta+e t%e %olidays o=< #ey4 if ,3m still puttin6 out t2o
episodes a 2ee+ 2%ilst 1ein6 on un"paid vacation4 you can %andle anot%er meaty
s%o2. T%e future 2aits for no man4 en5oy9
Andreas Antonopoulos: #i4 t%is is Andreas Antonopoulos from Let3s Tal+ Bitcoin.
,3m %ere in Latin America in Buenos Aires4 Ar6entina at t%e Latin America Bitcoin
conference and ,3m very e/cited to 1e %ere. ,3m %ere 2it% Tatiana &oro' an
artist and son62riter4 s%e is producin6 a son6 on Bitcoin t%at s%e 2ill 1e
presentin6 for t%e :rst time %ere at t%e conference. $o Tatiana4 2elcome to t%e
s%o2.
Tatiana &oro': T%an+ you for %avin6 me4 ,3m very e/cited to 1e %ere.
AA: $o tell me a1out your 1ac+6round4 you3re an artist4 you3re a son62riter. Tell
me a1out your 1ac+6round in t%at space.
T&: >+ay4 ,3m a sin6er son62riter4 ,3ve 1een sin6in6 since , 2as a very little 6irl4 ,
al2ays +ne2 2%at , 2anted to do and t%ere 2as al2ays an element in my up"
1rin6in6 2%ere , 2anted to save t%e 2orld and ma+e t%in6s 1etter4 , 2as very
interested in %o2 t%e 8orld 2as or6anised and of course , 2as very inspired 1y a
lot of t%e musicians from t%e 6?3s and @?3s and t%e c%an6e t%at t%ey 1rou6%t
a1out in t%e 8orld.
T%en a couple of years a6o , 6ot involved 2it% t%e Ron Paul movement and
li1ertarianism and su1seAuently a little 1it of anarc%y. , 2as doin6 a lot of music
t%at %ad anti"2ar t%emes to invi6orate t%e people and to encoura6e t%em to use
t%e ,nternet in order to communicate 2it% eac% ot%er. , found out a1out Bitcoin a
couple of years a6o4 1ut it didn3t really clic+ 2it% me until very recently. 8%ilst ,
%ave 1een travellin6 around $out% America , %ave 1een tal+in6 to a lot of
di=erent people a1out Bitcoin and , %ave really realised t%e true po2er Bitcoin
%as to revolutioni'e t%e 8orld in a completely di=erent 2ay t%at seems ar6ua1ly
a little easier t%an %oldin6 up pic+et si6ns and ar6uin6 2it% t%e 6overnment.
, t%in+ it3s a peaceful e/it strate6y from t%e current system and t%at3s 2%y , 2as
inspired to 2rite t%is son6.
AA: ;ou3ve also 1een involved in some of t%e related movements4 suc% as t%e
)ree $tate movement and you %ave attended many of t%ose conferences. ,3m
6uessin6 you 2ere at Porc)est recently and out co"%ost $tep%anie &urp%y is also
involved in t%at movement4 %o2 do you :nd t%e overlap 1et2een t%e li1ertarian
community and t%e Bitcoin community<
T&: T%e li1ertarian community is my family4 t%ey 2elcome you 2it% open arms.
,3ve 6otten to perform all over t%e country and every time , see everyone it3s li+e
comin6 to a family reunion. , %ave noticed t%at t%ere is a similarity 2it% t%e
Bitcoin community 1ecause you do %ave some of t%e li1ertarians t%ere. , t%in+
2%at it is4 is 1ein6 2it% people 2%o truly understand 2%at t%is is a1out and ,
t%in+ t%at it3s %ard for people 2%en t%ey3re tryin6 to e/plain Bitcoin to t%eir
family and friends 2%o don3t really understand it.
T%ere is a de:nite comradery t%at 6oes on and , t%in+ it3s 6reat 1ecause you3re
pullin6 in di=erent +inds of people4 t%e one t%in6 t%at , do li+e4 even t%ou6% , feel
t%at li1erty and freedom are universals , t%in+ t%at people %ave 2alls a6ainst any
political party t%at isn3t t%e speci:c team t%at t%ey 6re2 up rootin6 for. Bitcoin
%as t%e a1ility to 1rin6 in all di=erent +inds of people in a 2ay t%at a=ects people
universally4 so , t%in+ t%at3s really appealin6.
AA: ;es4 very muc% so. ,t3s not only a 1etter and easier 2ay4 it3s also a muc%
more e=ective 2ay to ac%ieve some of t%e s%ared 6oals of all t%ese di=erent
movements.
T&: Ri6%t and , %ave a line in t%is son64 2%ic% %opefully 2ill stay in4 ot%er2ise
referencin6 2ill ma+e no sense. , said B*a+amoto came alon6 2it% more t%an a
son6 and 6ave t%e la1our 1ac+ to manC. )or me as a son6 2riter ,3m %appy to 1e
%um1led 1y t%e ma6nitude of t%is invention and concept4 , can 2rite son6s all
day lon6. People can do ne2s reports and try to 2a+e up t%e masses 1ut
somet%in6 li+e t%is doesn3t even reAuire t%at4 it3s a completely separate 2ay of
loo+in6 at t%in6s and it %as a peaceful e/it strate6y 2%ic% , t%in+ is really
important.
AA: >ne of t%e sayin6s in Bitcoin4 is t%at Bitcoin is li+e a ne2ly discovered
countryDcontinent and 2e need everyt%in6. To tec%nolo6ists t%at means
tremendous opportunity to 1uild ne2 products and services and to reinvent some
of t%e :nancial industry. But , ta+e t%at sentence even more 1roadly4 2e are a
community on t%is ne2ly discovered country4 so 2%en 2e say 2e need
everyt%in6 t%at also means art4 culture4 music and comedy.
$o ,3m very e/cited to %ear t%at artists are no2 6ettin6 involved in t%is space4
can you tell me a 1it a1out %o2 you3re tryin6 to use your music to 1rin6 t%at
cultural aspect to Bitcoin and to 1rin6 t%at community to6et%er<
T&: 8%en , :rst started doin6 a Bitcoin son6 , didn3t really understand t%e 2ei6%t
of 2%ic% , 2as em1ar+in6 on4 as , developed t%is son6 and as , s%ared it 2it% my
friend 2%o t%en sc%ooled me on t%e 2ei6%t of everyt%in6. , t%in+ t%at it3s not 5ust
a 5in6le anymore4 it3s a son6 1ecause t%is is4 in a 2ay t%e story of man and our
evolution. , t%in+ it3s very inspirin6 and , t%in+ t%at artists are missin6 t%e 1oat
2%en t%ey3re only sin6in6 a1out love son6s not t%at love isn3t important4 , %ave
2or+ed on a ton of sad love son6s 1ut , t%in+ t%at t%is is an e/citin6 ne2 t%in6
t%at is very speci:c to our time and it3s a ne2 a6e for people.
, t%in+ t%at it s%ould 1e inspirin6 people and it certainly inspired me4 so ,3d li+e to
6o around and interact 2it% ot%er artists and encoura6e t%em to ta+e Bitcoin as
payment and to participate in t%is 1ecause t%ey need to 1e a1le to 1rea+ out of
t%e paradi6m as 2ell and , t%in+ it appeals to t%at type of mind. A creative
person is 6oin6 to li+e Bitcoin4 t%ey 5ust need to 1e told a1out it in a 2ay t%at
t%ey can actually understand4 2%ic% , t%in+ t%at you 6uys are doin6 a really 6reat
5o1 2it%.
AA: T%an+ you4 so you3re 6oin6 to 1e performin6 your son6 at t%e close of t%e
Latin America Bitcoin conference 1ut , 2as fortunate enou6% to %ear a previe2
and certainly 2%at struc+ me from listenin6 to your son6 2as %o2 2ell you
%ave captured t%e spirit of t%e community and t%e principles4 ideolo6y and t%e
%opefullyDoptimistic spirit of t%e Bitcoin community in your lyrics.
T&: , t%in+ it3s 6reat4 ,3m so %appy to 1e %ere. $out% America is fantastic and ,
t%in+ t%at speci:cally $out% America in places li+e Ar6entina 2%ere t%eir
currency is 2ildly 0uctuatin64 t%ey can appreciate somet%in6 li+e Bitcoin %ere.
T%at3s e/citin6 1ecause you don3t %ave to limit it to t%e Enited $tates4 , 1elieve
you said in your lecture4 you tal+ a1out %o2 it3s not really a matter of it 1ein6
1etter t%an t%e E$F4 it3s a1out 1ein6 1etter t%an t%e 1ottom G? currencies and
t%at3s somet%in6 t%at , never really considered 1efore and , t%in+ t%at t%at is
really e/citin6 in conte/t of 2%ere 2e are no2.
AA: ,t3s certainly 2%ere t%e dar+ness is dar+est4 it3s easiest to see t%e li6%t and
Ar6entina is one of t%ose places and ,3m a1solutely sure you3re 6oin6 to roc+ t%e
conference at t%e end of it and 2e really appreciate it. 8it% t%at in mind , 2ould
li+e to t%an+ you for 5oinin6 our s%o2 Tatiana.
T&: T%an+ you for %avin6 me9
AA: Let3s listen to your son6.
(Tatiana song starts link to her live performance at the Latin America
conference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v!"#$%v&'(b)*
$tep%anie &urp%y: #ello4 ,3m %ere tal+in6 2it% &ic%ael (oldstein4 %e %as founded
somet%in6 t%at , t%in+ is very cool it3s called t%e $atos%i *a+amoto institute. #i
&ic%ael4 2elcome to Let3s Tal+ Bitcoin9
&ic%ael (oldstein: #i4 t%an+ you for %avin6 me9
$&: $o tell me a1out t%e $atos%i *a+amoto institute.
&(: ,t 2as founded 1y me and my friends Pierre Roc%ard and Faniel Hra2is' last
mont%4 t%e reason 2e founded it 2as 1ecause 2e felt t%at in t%e Bitcoin
community t%ere 2as a lar6e lac+ of understand of t%e %istory of ideas t%at
Bitcoin came from. &ainly t%e Cyp%erpun+ and t%e crypto"anarc%ist movement4
a lot of people +no2 a1out Bitcoin 1ut t%ey t%in+ it 5ust came out of no2%ere and
t%at $atos%i 5ust s%o2ed up and made it.
But it3s actually 1uilt on ideas t%at %ave e/tended 1ac+ to t%e 6?3s4 1ut
especially ideas t%at came out in t%e I?3s suc% as Favid C%aum and later on
Timot%y &ay and t%e Cyp%ernomicon.
$&: 8%at did t%ey do<
&(: Favid C%aum proposed 2ays to create an anonymous remailers for
anonymous messa6in6 online as 2ell as an untracea1le di6ital cac%e4 so %e
started t%at. Tim &ay3s Cyp%ernomicon too+ t%e idea of pu1lic +ey crypto6rap%y
and tried to t%in+ a1out all of t%e social implications of it4 %e ima6ined all sorts of
decentrali'ed communities t%at are 1ased on reputation as opposed to t%e force
of 6overnment.
$&: $o t%ere3s a lot of ideas t%ere t%at people aren3t a2are of4 is t%at ri6%t<
&(: ;ea%9 $o for instance4 in J99I crypto6rap%er 8ei Fai came out 2it% a
proposal on t%e Cyp%erpun+ mailin6 list called B"&oney and it %appens to 1e
pretty muc% Bitcoin. ,t descri1es a protocol t%at is very similar to 2%at 2e no2
+no2 of4 as Bitcoin. But t%is 2as a full decade earlier.
$&: 8o24 may1e t%e 2orld 2asn3t ready for it yet at t%at time.
&(: &ay1e not4 may1e t%ey 2eren3t ready to actually implement it as people
%ad to 6et up and code t%ese strai6%t ideas t%at people came up 2it%.
$&: , +no2 t%ere 2ere a lot of ideas t%at 2ere almost a precursors to Bitcoin4
suc% as #as%Cas%4 E"6old4 6old money t%at +ind of t%in64 %ave you tal+ed
a1out t%ose too<
&(: ;es4 2e %ave a previe2 2e1site up and 2e %ave a 1unc% of primary sources
up and Adam Bac+3s #as%Cas% paper is on t%eir. #as%Cas% 2as ori6inally
developed as a 2ay to prevent email spam 1ecause you 2ould %ave to 6enerate
proof"of"2or+ to s%o2 t%at you3re not a spammer4 as it 2ould 1e too costly to 1e
sendin6 out all t%e fa+e emails.
T%en $atos%i used t%at in Bitcoin minin6 proof"of"2or+ to do minin6 so you can
6enerate consensus on 1loc+s.
$&: 8o24 o+ay. ,t sounds li+e t%e ancestor of t%e Bitcoin movement 2ere very
ideolo6ically driven4 in terms of 2antin6 a freer 8orld4 2ould you say t%at 2as
accurate<
&(: 7ery muc% so4 in fact t%e very :rst para6rap% of t%e B"money proposal says
not%in6 a1out money 1ut instead it tal+s a1out %is praise for Timot%y &ays
visions of crypto"anarc%y and t%en proceeds to say t%at %avin6 a decentrali'ed
di6ital currency is an inte6ral component of people 1ein6 a1le to create t%ese
voluntary communities in t%e di6ital space. T%en 8ei 6oes on t%e tal+ a1out t%e
money.
$&: , see4 so t%e ideas are really foundational to it. ,f some1ody %as never %eard
t%e term Crypto"anarc%y 1efore and t%ey3re listenin6 to t%is podcast and are li+e
B8%at is t%atC4 %o2 2ould you de:ne Crypto"Anarc%y4 and 2%at is it<
&(: , see Crypto"anarc%y as not so muc% a p%ilosop%y in and of itself 1ut rat%er
a strate6y for creatin6 a freer 8orld4 it3s very muc% li1ertarian. Timot%y &ay
descri1ed it as a form Anarc%ical capitalism4 1ut 2%at it3s reco6ni'in6 is t%at
usin6 t%e po2er of crypto6rap%y you can create protocols t%at are simply
un1rea+a1le 1y 1rute"force. )or instance t%e 6overnment could +eep people from
1ein6 p%ysically a1le to tal+ to one anot%er4 %o2ever if t%ey3re a1le to set up
crypto6rap%ic protocols 2%ere t%ey can send secret messa6es t%at only t%ey and
t%e people t%ey 2ant to interact 2it% can understand. *o amount of computin6
po2er can 1rea+ t%is4 so 1asically you3re protectin6 t%is freedom of association
2it% mat%ematics and you simply cannot point a 6un at a mat% eAuation and tell
it to solve itself.
$&: ,3ve %eard t%at line 1efore4 do you +no2 2%ere it comes from<
&(: , personally 6ot it from Kname unsureL4 1ut it3s a common sayin6 , t%in+.
$&: ;ea%4 it reminds me of t%at 5o+e t%at4 t%ere is a farmer and a 6overnment
1ureaucrat comes to t%e farm to inspect it and t%e farmer says B>+ you can
inspect t%e farm4 1ut 5ust don3t 6o into t%e pen 2it% t%e 1ullC and %e says B8ell4 ,
2ill %ave you +no2 ,3m from t%e federal 6overnment and ,3ll 6o 2%erever , 2antC.
T%e farmer says >H4 %e s%o2s t%e farmer %is 1ad6e4 t%e farmer says alri6%t 6o
a%ead. T%e federal a6ent 6oes into t%e pen 2it% t%e 1ull and a fe2 minutes later
t%e 1ull is c%asin6 %im out of t%e farm and t%e farmer s%outs B$%o2 %im your
1ad6eC. (Laughs*
;ou3re a1solutely ri6%t4 you can3t point a 6un at a mat% eAuation and ma+e it
solve itself and t%ere is a1solutely not%in6 t%at any1ody can do.
&(: ;ea% e/actly4 t%in6s li+e P(P 2%ic% came from t%e same Cyp%erpun+
movement 2%ic% 6ives people t%e a1ility to send messa6es t%at simply cannot
1e 1ro+en 1y 6overnment.
$&: 8%at is t%e Cyp%erpun+<
&(: Timot%y &ay4 Eric #u6%es and -o%n (ilmore formed a 6roup in California in
t%e early 9?3s and t%ey 5ust 6ot to6et%er and tal+ed a1out crypto6rap%y. T%ey
2ould play some crypto6rap%ic 1ased 6ames and stu=4 it later 1ecame a very
popular mailin6 list 2%ere people 2ere s%arin6 all t%ese 6rand ideas protocols
and also implementations of t%e protocols. $omeone %ad t%en called it
Cyp%erpun+s4 cyp%er comin6 from a crypto6rap%ic cyp%er.
$&: Foes it %ave a +ind of pun+ roc+4 do it yourself +ind of roots too<
&(: >ne of t%e ma/ims of t%e Cyp%erpun+s 2as t%at Cyp%erpun+s 2rite code4
you can sit around and tal+ a1out t%ese t%in6s 1ut ultimately someone %as to do
t%e code. T%e person 2%o 2ill truly ma+e c%an6e in t%is society is t%e one 2%o
sits do2n and codes somet%in6 t%at 6ives people a ne2 crypto6rap%ic po2er.
$&: As Bitcoin adoption 6ro2s t%ere are 6oin6 to 1e more people 2%o are
interested in Bitcoin 2%o aren3t necessarily a2are of all t%e %istory and
p%ilosop%y t%at is 1e%ind it. ,s t%is 2%at you3re tryin6 to do 2it% t%e *a+amoto
institute4 to educate people on t%e foundational ideas< #o2 are you doin6 t%at<
&(: ;es4 t%at3s a very lar6e component of 2%at 2e3re doin6. A lot of t%ese ideas
are ne2 to t%ese people. , learnt a1out Bitcoin and crypto"anarc%y around a1out
t%e same time and t%ey very muc% 6o %and"in"%and. , t%in+ understand t%e roots
of Bitcoin allo2s you to understand 2%ere Bitcoin came from and 2%y it 2as
created. )urt%ermore t%is lends you t%e a1ility to understand t%e principles of
Bitcoin4 t%at it3s strictly +ind of anarc%istic style of doin6 somet%in6.
, +no2 t%at mi6%t scare some people 1ut %opefully if t%ey read more4 t%ey 2ill
learn %o2 1eautiful of a composition t%at it actually is.
$&: 8%at do you t%in+ a1out all of t%e trends recently 2%ere people are sayin6
B#o2 can 2e please t%e re6ulators4 %o2 can 2e pay ta/es on our BitcoinsC<
&(: , t%in+4 once a6ain4 if t%ey understood t%e Cyp%erpun+ roots of Bitcoin t%ey
2ould understand t%at Cyp%erpun+s didn3t 2ant to simply %ide from
6overnment. T%ey 2anted to ma+e t%e 6overnment irrelevant4 t%ey 2anted to
create protocols t%at allo2ed people to completely disre6ard certain le6acy
institutions and state apparatuses.
$&: >+4 2%at does t%e *a+amoto institute do in order to foster t%at 6oal of
education<
&(: Li+e , said4 2e currently %ave a previe2 site4 2e3re 6oin6 to 1e 2or+in6 on a
full"1lo2n 2e1site. &ostly for no2 it3s 6oin6 to 1e primary resources so you can
:nd all of t%ese 6reat 2or+s at one location4 %opefully 2it% some commentary to
%elp you alon6 t%e 2ay as some of t%e crypto6rap%ic stu= can 1e a little more
diMcult to understand.
>ne of our top priorities is to %ave part of t%e 2e1site dedicated to $atos%i
*a+amoto4 to %ave t%e complete $atos%i 2%ere people can :nd %is ori6inal
mailin6"list posts 2%ere %e introduced Bitcoin to t%e 2orld. All of %is BitcoinTal+
posts4 %is 2%ite paper and any ot%er 2ritin6s t%at 2e may 1e a1le to :nd. >nce
a6ain 2e can %opefully :nd 2ays to annotate it 6uide people t%rou6% all t%e
ideas so t%ey can 1etter understand it.
$&: T%is %as not%in6 to do 2it% attemptin6 to identify $atos%i4 ri6%t<
&(: *o4 it3s a fun Auestion to as+ and , %ave my t%ou6%ts on 2%o it could
possi1ly 1e. But t%is is 5ust more of a 1road cele1ration of t%e %istory of t%e
crypto"anarc%ist ideas4 t%e Cyp%erpun+ movement and Bitcoin as 2ell. ,f 2e
%appen to come across 2%o $atos%i is4 t%at mi6%t 1e fun to +no2 1ut t%at3s not
2%at 2e3re see+in6.
$&: Are you operatin6 as a non"pro:t educational or6anisation< #o2 are you
fundin6 t%is pro5ect<
&(: ;ea%4 currently 2e3re payin6 out of our o2n poc+ets. 8e %ave a NR code on
our 2e1site if anyone 2ants to donate Bitcoins Bitcoins only please.
$&: 8%at3s your 2e1site<
&(: *a+amotoinstitute.or6 2e are a pendin6 O?Jc!P! or6anisation4 so your
Bitcoin donations 2ill %opefully 1e ta/ deducti1le in t%e future.
$&: (otc%a t%at 2ill 1e interestin6 sendin6 t%at application to t%e ,R$ %a%a.
&(: ;ea%4 ,3m sure t%ey3ll en5oy readin6 t%at.
$&: (reat4 &ic%ael t%an+s so muc% for tal+in6 2it% me today.
*a+amotoinstitute.or6 is t%e 2e1site correct<
&(: Correct.
$&: T%an+ you so muc%.
&(: T%an+ you.
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(.n- intermission*
$&: Tis t%e season4 for C%ristmas s%oppin64 all +inds of %oliday s%oppin6 and all
t%at crap. , don3t really 6et into myself4 ,3m +ind of a 1a%"%um"1u6. But it3s also
t%e season t%at a lot of people tend to t%in+ a1out c%arita1le 6ivin64 recently
t%ere 2as a natural disaster in t%e P%ilippines4 it 6ot a lot of attention. T%e little
Bitcoin c%arity t%at ,3m involved 2it% called B)rPP AidC did a pro5ect to %elp out
2it% disaster relief in t%e P%ilippines. T%e 2ay it 2ent 2as really interestin64 it
started really or6anically4 my partner Teresa put up a 1lo6 post and s%e said
loo+4 my friend from colle6e lives in t%e P%ilippines and ,3m a1le to send Bitcoins
to %im so %e can sell for local currency. 8it% J"Bitcoin 2e can 6et all t%ese
pounds of rice4 supplies and medical items to %elp people 2it% t%e disaster relief.
People started s%arin6 it on social"media4 t%en s%e 2rote a 1lo6 post a1out it
t%at ended up on Reddit. ,t turned out t%at frPPaid raised Auite a 1it of coin in
order to send to Teresa contact in t%e P%ilippines. 8e met some ot%er people and
all in all4 it3s still +ind of 6oin6 on. 8e3ve 6ot some pictures and information
posted on our 1lo6 at frPPaid.com 1ut all"in"all , t%in+ it 2as a1out @"Bitcoins t%at
2as raised and sent to t%e P%ilippines for relief.
T%at 2as really cool to me 1ecause it3s really diMcult to send E$F or ot%er +inds
of le6acy money to t%e P%ilippines or to any2%ere in t%e 8orld you can
encounter some 1arriers. But 2it% Bitcoin it made it so easy to do t%is c%arita1le
relief 2or+4 so , 2as really e/cited a1out t%at. ,f you 2ant to read a1out it you
can 6o to frPPaid.com
Andreas4 , %eard you did an educational pro5ect yourself on t2itter<
AA: ,f t2itter %as melted do2n t%en ,3m t%e culprit4 2%at , did 2as4 on t%e
occasion of reac%in6 R??? follo2ers , su66ested t%at , 2ould donate Bitcoin to
ne2 users. ,t3s somet%in6 t%at ,3ve done 1efore4 , did it at O?? follo2ers4 , did it at
J??? follo2ers and eac% time , 6ave a small amount of Bitcoin 2it% t%e follo2in6
idea t%at , can spend %ours e/plainin6 Bitcoin to you or you can 5ust try it. ,f you
try it you3re 6oin6 to understand it far 1etter t%an any e/planation t%at , can
o=er.
, 2anted to 6et more people to try it so , 2ent a 1it 1i66er t%is time4 last time ,
6ave out Bitcoin to t%e :rst R? people 2%o replied to one of my t2eets. T%is time
,3ve left it open ended4 ,3ve also solicited ot%ers to 5oin me and matc% my
donations. $o far 2e %ave raised P Bitcoin4 2%ic% is 6oin6 to pro1a1ly fund R???
P??? of &illi1its to t%ousands of people t%at %ave replied. , started tryin6 to
collect addresses manually and Auic+ly discovered t%at t2itter 2as a1out to 1lo2
up on me. *o2 ,3ve 2ritten some scripts to pull out t%e Bitcoin addresses and
6enerate t%e transactions.
$ome2%ere in t%ere4 &a/ Heiser ret2eeted it and t%at turned on t%e :re %ose. ,
t%in+ t%at it3s a 6reat 2ay to 6et ne2 people to adopt Bitcoin and it3s so muc%
easier to understand Bitcoin if you can use it. All of us can donate a dollar or so
to someone 2%o is ne2 to Bitcoin and , t%in+ it3s t%e 1est 2ay to introduce ne2
people4 so try it out. ,3ve 1een a1solutely over2%elmed 2it% reAuests since , did
it and , t%in+ 2e3re 6oin6 to %it more t%an R??? ne2 adoptions.
AL: , t%in+ t%at3s a 6reat initiative you3ve 6ot 6oin6 on t%ere Andreas and , t%in+
t%at it3s important at times li+e t%is 2%ere t%e price is spi+in6 up to ma+e out"
reac% e=orts li+e t%at. As people are interested ri6%t no24 it3d 1e 6reat if t%ey
2ere interested 1ecause t%ey understand t%e revolutionary 8orld c%an6in6
nature of t%is it can ma+e life 1etter for every1ody on t%e planet4 1ut t%ey3re
pro1a1ly interested in Bitcoin 5ust 1ecause of t%e price.
But 1ecause t%ey3re interested in t%e price4 t%ey3re interested. $o t%ere is an
opportunity t%ere 2%ere you can 0ip t%e s2itc%4 you can say a couple of t%in6s to
t%em and %elp t%em to see Bitcoin in t%e ri6%t 2ay. T%ey can t%en clic+ and
1ecome people 2%o understand a1out Bitcoin as opposed to 1e 2%o are 5ust
e/cited a1out Bitcoin.
,n addition to t%e t2o initiatives t%at you 6uys tal+ed a1out4 , %ave a small list of
Bitcoin acceptin6 c%arities t%at , t%ou6%t 2e could s%are on t%e air in case
any1ody is loo+in6 for alternatives.
$&: , +no2 $eans output %as 6ot a lot of support 1ut t%ere are actually ot%er
c%arities out t%ere too.
&(: ;ea%4 t%e list is 6ro2in64 it3s not E$F lists Auite yet 1ut 2e3ve 6ot a1out R?
names on t%is list. T%e :rst one is t%e Bit(ive foundation 2%ic% is at
1it6ivefoundation.or6
" BitcoinJ?? at 1itcoinJ??.or6
" Bitcoin not 1om1s at 1itcoinnot1om1s.com
" E)) is acceptin6 it at supporters.e=.or6
" )oundation for economic education4 of 2%ic% , 1elieve received a donation
of J???Bitcoins from Ro6er 7er t%e ot%er day. ,t3s really nice to see t%is
6ettin6 out t%ere 1ecause t%ey 5ust recently started acceptin6 Bitcoin and
, +no2 t%ey %ad a %u6e in0uence on my economic education too. T%at3s at
)EE.or6
" H%an Academy at 222.+%anacademy.or6
" T%e life 1oat foundation at life1oat.com
" Peace 6ee+s at peace6ee+s.or6
" $ean3s outpost at seansoutpost.com
" $%ire s%arin6 at s%ires%arin6.or6
$&: $%ire s%arin6 delivers t%an+s 6ivin6 1as+ets to needy families in *e2
#amps%ire ri6%t no24 1ut t%ey may e/pand later. T%ey also 6ive 1ac+pac+s 2it%
personal care items to %omeless people.
" $on6s of love at son6so0ove.or6
" 7irtual doctors at virtualdoctors.or6
T%e follo2in6 couple of or6anisations includin6 frPPaid are actively supportin6
relief for t%e typ%oon in t%e P%ilippines. T%ere is frPPaid at frPPaid.or6
" Bit&e is collectin6 at 1itme.com
" Cause central is collectin6 at cause"central.com
" )inally t%e typ%oon %aiyan fund is at typ%oon%aiyanrelie=und.or6
,f you3re feelin6 li+e you3ve done really 2ell over t%e run up of SJ?? to SJ??? on
Bitcoin4 you s%ould 6ive 1ac+ t%is season4 t%ere are lots of options.
$&: ;ea% ,3m so 6lad to see t%is proliferation of c%arita1le and educational
or6anisations t%at accept Bitcoin and do really cool t%in6s 2it% it. ,t3s 5ust really
e/citin6 for me to see4 , remem1er t%e survey t%at came out from .ero #ed6e at
least a year a6o said t%at t%e most common use of Bitcoin 2as as 6ifts4 tips and
c%arita1le donations and may1e t%at 2ill actually continue4 , %ope so.
AA: ,f you3re not ready to 6ive to a c%arity4 stu= t%ose stoc+in6s t%is C%ristmas.
(et all of your family a little amount of Bitcoin a milli1it eac%4 J? milli1its eac%.
Put a paper 2allet 2it% Bitcoin in t%eir stoc+in6 and tell t%em to %old onto it for a
year and t%en see 2%at %appens. Everyone , %ave %eard 2%o %as done t%at in
t%e past %ave 6reat stories to s%are. As t%ey %ave ended up 2it% nieces and
nep%e2s 2it% lots and lots of money.
$&: $pea+in6 of 2%ic%4 1y t%e 2ay Adam4 , 5ust 2ant to say t%an+s for readin6
out t%at list of Bitcoin c%arita1le or6anisations 1ecause , %ave actually %ad a lot
of people as+ me for e/actly suc% a list. $pea+in6 of C%ristmas stoc+in6 stu=ers
and stu= li+e t%at4 it3s really interestin6 to t%in+ a1out t%e possi1ilities of
s%oppin6 for 6ifts and doin6 %oliday s%oppin6 2it% Bitcoin. 8%ic% is essentially
1e%avin6 li+e a de0ationary currency.
,3ve %eard a lot of stories of 1uyer3s remorse people 2%o re6ret spendin6
Bitcoins 2%en t%ey 2ere at a certain value no2 t%at t%ey3ve 6one up to SJ???
per Bitcoin. T%ere are also stories of people 2%o are really %appy t%at t%ey %un6
on to t%eir Bitcoins or t%at t%ey 1ou6%t Bitcoins a year a6o4 it adds an interestin6
dynamic to %oliday s%oppin6. At least for me 6ro2in6 up in t%e E$4 2%at ,3ve
constantly seen t%rou6%out my 2%ole life4 is people ta+in6 on a lot of consumer
de1t credit card de1t! durin6 t%e %oliday season to 1uy 6ifts t%at t%ey can3t
really a=ord to impress people t%at t%ey don3t really +no2 or care a1out all t%at
muc%. >r to ma+e it seem li+e t%ey3re 2ealt%ier t%an t%ey are.
T%en t%ey spend mont%s and mont%s payin6 it o=4 t%ey pay interest and t%ey
end up payin6 more for t%ose 6ifts t%an t%ey could %ave if t%ey paid for t%em
2it% cas% up front. 8it% Bitcoin it3s a 2%ole di=erent dynamic4 you could actually
end up Bpayin6 moreC or feelin6 as t%ou6% you overpaid for a 6ift if4 for instance4
you spend some Bitcoin today and t%en don3t it and a year later Bitcoins are
2ort% SJ??? eac%. ,3ve %eard t%e 1uyer3s remorse stories4 suc% as people 2%o
1ou6%t a t"s%irt for a fe2 Bitcoins a year a6o or somet%in6 li+e t%at.
8e3re also seein6 t%e :re sales of vendors 2%o are o=erin6 stu= 2it% deep
discounts 5ust so t%ey can 6et t%eir %ands on some Bitcoin. , %ave seen t"s%irts
for SO in Bitcoin. T%ey3re doin6 t%at 1ecause t%ey 1elieve t%at Bitcoin is 6oin6 to
6o up if t%ey %old onto it4 it introduces some really interestin6 dynamics. 8%at do
you 6uys t%in+4 2%at3s your e/perience 1een< #ave you done any %oliday
s%oppin6 2it% Bitcoin<
AL: 8%at , did t%is year4 2as t%at , %ad a num1er of Bitcoin set aside a1out P or
G t%at , set aside in >cto1er t%at , decided 2ould 1e used to purc%ase C%ristmas
presents and ot%er t%in6s over t%e %oliday season. ,3m actually still plannin6 on
spendin6 t%at amount4 it3s 5ust 2ort% more t%an it 2as at t%e point t%at , 2as
ori6inally allocatin6 it.
, t%in+ it3s a1out ma+in6 decisions and :6urin6 out 2it% Bitcoin and any of
t%ese de0ationary currencies t%e t%in6 t%at you don3t 2ant to do is %ave a
s%ort time frame ri6%t< )or ne/t year 2%at ,3m plannin6 on doin6 is doin6 t%is
earlier4 ne/t year ,3ll :6ure out %o2 many Bitcoins , 2ant to allocate to 6ifts
e/cept ,3m 6oin6 to do it in -anuary. ,3m 6oin6 to 1uy t%at many coins in -anuary
and ,3m 5ust 6oin6 to let it sit t%ere and 2ait and in JJ"mont%s ,3ll see 2%at it3s
2ort% and at t%at point ,3ll use it or some of it for 6ifts.
, really li+e t%ese t%in6s 2%ere you can arti:cially 6ive yourself a lon6 timeline4
you don3t need to %ave a s%ort time"frame on everyt%in6 if you can loo+ furt%er
a%ead. &a+in6 last minute purc%ases 2it% Bitcoin seems li+e it3s 5ust dan6erous.
, don3t +no24 , really li+e spendin6 Bitcoin and it3s very spenda1le so , don3t %ave
t%e pro1lem of not spendin6 it. But at t%e same time t%e incentives are very
contrary4 it3s a very tou6% decision.
$&: T%at3s interestin6 t%at you mentioned %avin6 a %oliday present fund. ,3ve
%ad somet%in6 similar too4 , 2ould li+e to turn some percenta6e of my Bitcoin
into 6old4 and , actually %ave a 6old fund t%at , started a little 2%ile a6o. , said
o+ay4 2%en it %its t%is price ,3m 6oin6 to 1uy some 6old 2it% Bitcoin. T%ere3s
really interestin6 t%in6s t%at you can do 2it% settin6 aside little savin6s accounts
2it% Bitcoin and its super easy to do t%at as you don3t %ave to create a ne2 1an+
account or anyt%in6. ;ou can 5ust earmar+ a little 2allet for your C%ristmas fund
or 2%atever you 2ant.
AL: T%at3s e/actly ri6%t4 it3s li+e all of t%e advanta6es t%at 1an+s used to deliver
to you 2it% an actual return on savin6s e/cept you don3t need t%e 1an+ and it
ta+es a fraction of t%e time. T%at3s t%e default4 if you3re %oldin6 Bitcoin its default
de0ationary as opposed to needin6 to put it into a 1an+ account. ,t3s very cool.
AA: T%ere is one ot%er aspect to it 2%ic% is t%at 2%en you do your purc%ases in
Bitcoin4 you3re essentially movin6 t%at money t%rou6% a very speci:c part of t%e
economy. T%ose 2%o %ave t%e foresi6%t and vision to already accept Bitcoin and
2%o are 2illin6 to ta+e t%at ris+ for a ne2 tec%nolo6y4 per%aps are also
ideolo6ically in favour of t%e decentralisation t%at Bitcoin causes. T%at at t%e
same time you3re ta+in6 money a2ay from 8almart4 &acys and all of t%ese 6iant
corporations t%at pay t%eir employees little to not%in6 2it% no medical care or
any 1ene:ts.
,t3s also an ideolo6ical spend4 it allo2s you to divert money into an economy you
support from an economy t%at you don3t.
$&: *ot every Bitcoin acceptin6 merc%ant %as 6reat %ealt% care for t%eir
employees or ot%er 1ene:ts li+e t%at. , t%in+ t%at t%ere are de:nitely people 2%o
2ould s%op at 8almart if t%ey started acceptin6 Bitcoin tomorro2 1ut , do a6ree
t%at it3s a sort of ideolo6ical decision and in a sense you3re sendin6 a si6nal 2it%
your 2allet 1y %o2 you3re spendin6 your money and 2%o you support.
AA: , li+e Adams approac%4 2%ic% is a :/ed Bitcoin spendin6 varia1le 6ift
purc%ase. $o li+e a mont% a6o , put aside J"Bitcoin and , 2as 6oin6 to 1uy a R?C
T7. *o2 ,3m still 1uyin6 a 0at screen T7 1ut it3s 6oin6 to 1e a R?ft one instead.
AL: #a%a t%at3s %ilarious4 t%at3s e/actly 2%at , did too. , %ave a R9C monitor
s%o2in6 up today and actually , 2anted to mention t%at. Blac+ )riday 2as a
really interestin6 e/perience 1ecause on t%e one %and it 2as really successful for
Bitcoin4 1ut , don3t +no2 if you 6uys actually 2ent and s%opped at any of t%e
Blac+ )riday deals t%ey 2eren3t very 6ood9 T%at 2as t%e funny part a1out it4
you could 6o to Ama'on and loo+ at t%e dollar prices of anyt%in64 t%en loo+ at
t%e dollar prices on 1itcoinstore or 1its%op.us or any ot%er B2e 2ant to 1e
Ama'on e/cept 2it% BitcoinC companies out t%ere.
T%eir discounts 2ere pretty pat%etic 1ecause a6ain4 it doesn3t scale very 2ell. ,
t%in+ t%at ri6%t no24 t%e fact t%at so muc% of t%ese Bitcoins are 1ein6 spent
2it%in t%e Bitcoin economy really spea+s to t%at ideolo6ical nature of it 1ecause
ot%er2ise t%ere are a lot of ot%er incentives to spend at ot%er players to sell
your Bitcoin and to do it ot%er 2ays and in some cases , %ave actually done t%at.
But still4 , t%in+ t%at t%e ma5ority of my purc%ases are 6oin6 to 2ind up routin6
directly t%rou6% Bitcoin t%is time 1ecause , t%in+ it3s more a1out re2ardin6
people 2%o are acceptin6 it4 even if t%ey 5ust convert it t%rou6% BitPay instantly
and don3t even care a1out it4 , don3t care a1out t%at.
8%at , care a1out is t%at t%ey 1ot%ered to set it up4 t%ey are 2illin6 to accept it
so , 2ant to re2ard t%at.
$&: , do too4 1ut , %ave to admit t%at a stron6er driver for me to part 2it% my
Bitcoin4 li+e 2e said4 , usually replace it after2ards 1y 1uyin6 t%e dollar
eAuivalent of more Bitcoins so my total Bitcoin %oldin6s don3t 6o do2n. But for
me to 2ant to do t%at4 , really need discount too at t%is point. T%ere are so many
merc%ants t%at accept Bitcoin4 , %ave supportin6 t%em in t%e past simply 5ust
1ecause t%ey accepted Bitcoin4 t%at3s 6reat. But at t%is point t%ere is so many of
t%em comin6 on"1oard t%at it 2ould really %elp if t%ey 6ave some e/tra incentive
to spend Bitcoin.
AL: 8%at3s a 6ood discount< Because Bitcoinstore %as ?Q mar+up4 if you3re not
tal+in6 a1out p%ysical products it3s a lot easier to 6ive t%at su1stantial discount4
1ut %o2 do you do it 2it% p%ysical products< Fo you literally 5ust %ave to %ave a
lon6"term perspective4 1ecause if you did %ave a lon6"term perspective4 if you
2ere a1le to say 2e3re 6oin6 to sell t%is computer for R?Q o= 1ut 2e3re 6oin6 to
+eep t%e Bitcoin for 6"mont%s minimum. Foes t%at suddenly c%an6e t%e model4
does it ma+e it so a R?Q discount could actually 2or+ if you %ave t%e a1ility to
0oat t%at lon6"term time frame<
$&: ,t3s ris+y4 so not many people are 6oin6 to 1e 2illin6 to do t%at unless t%ey3re
really sold on t%e idea of Bitcoin. , t%in+ it could 2or+ if you %ad some cas% up"
front and you 2ere 2illin6 to purc%ase t%e electronic items up"front and t%en
slo2ly sell t%em o= for Bitcoin as you do need some liAuidity ri6%t4 you need
some cas% 0o2 if you3re 6oin6 to re"stoc+ your inventory. , t%in+ it3s somet%in6
for t%e people 2%o run t%ese 1usinesses to :6ure out.
AL: T%at3s a 6reat point and you %ave actually 6iven me t%e ans2er and you
didn3t even +no2 it. T%e ans2er is to not only sell for Bitcoin4 t%e ans2er is to sell
for 1ot%. To %ave t%e dollar cover your cost and t%e Bitcoin to 1e pure pro:t. ;ou
2ant to incentivise people over time to move to Bitcoin 1ecause ultimately
you3re 6oin6 to ma+e more pro:t.
T%at3s t%e t%in6 $tep%anie4 people 2%o are missin6 out ta+in6 and +eepin6
Bitcoin 1y sellin6 t%em immediately to BitPay4 t%ey3re missin6 out. T%ey3re
acceptin6 it and 6ainin6 t%e instantaneous advanta6e4 1ut t%ey3re not 6ettin6
any of t%e lon6 term advanta6e 2%ic% is 2%ere , t%in+ t%e value of Bitcoin really
is. ,t ta+es people time to see t%at 1ut t%at is 2%ere t%e value is. All of t%ese
pro1lems4 if you stretc% out t%e timeframe on t%em4 t%ey 6et so muc% smoot%er.
AA: T%e t%ree rules of 1usiness for me 2%en , started t%e Bitcoin 1usiness model
2%ic% 2e discussed on earlier episodes 2ereT rule UJ it %as to 1e Bitcoin
creative4 rule UR it %as to 1e E$F spendin6 at a lo2er rate t%an it is Bitcoin4 rule
UP it %as to 6enerate enou6% cas% 0o2 in E$F and 6ro2 e/ponentially so t%e
:rst t2o rules 2or+. 8%ic% is 1asically 2%at you 5ust said Adam4 you need t%e
E$F revenue in order to cover your :/ed costs t%at are not ot%er2ise covered.
But t%ere is one t%in6 t%at you 6uys missed 2%ic% is t%at laptop t%at you3re
tryin6 to sell4 is also rottin6 a2ay on your s%elf 1ecause t%at model is 1ecomin6
o1solete faster t%an ever. *ot only do you %ave to ta+e t%e lon6 vie2 on t%e
Bitcoin 1ut you also %ave to ta+e t%e s%ort vie2 on inventory 1ecause you need
to move t%at 1efore it 1ecomes o1solete. $o s2appin6 somet%in6 t%at is losin6
value fast for somet%in6 t%at %olds its value for a lon6er time is actually a very
smart 1usiness decision.
$&: , 6uess 1ac+ to t%e Auestion of 2%at is a 6ood discount4 it 2ould pro1a1ly
depend on t%e industry. But , t%in+ as %i6%er discount as someone could 1are4
personally 2%en , do voice"over services4 2%en ,3m t%in+in6 a1out pricin6 for
t%ose , al2ays 6ive at least a R?Q discount for Bitcoin. , t%in+ t%at3s pretty
attractive4 if some1ody o=ers 1et2een R? P?Q discount on t%eir services or
6oods for 1uyin6 in Bitcoin , t%in+ , 2ould usually do t%at.
AA: T%at3s t%e ot%er 2ay of loo+in6 at it4 t%e discount t%at you o=er is t%e price
point 2%ere t%e 1uyers %oardin6 instinct reac%es eAuili1rium 2it% t%e sellers
%oardin6 instinct and Auite %onestly 2%at you need to do is lo2er your discount
as muc% as you3re comforta1le 2it%4 until you start seein6 sales start to pea+.
T%en you +no2 you3ve %it t%at ma6ic point 2%ere you3re overcomin6 resistance
of %oardin6 1y your o2n discountin6. ,t3s very muc% a supply demand mar+et
and t%e discount rate is very muc% t%e price eAuili1rium point.
$&: $po+en li+e a true Bitcoinerpreneur. (Laughs*
AA: T%is is Andreas Antonopoulos from Let3s Tal+ Bitcoin4 ,3m %ere in Ar6entina at
t%e Latin America Bitcoin conference. ,3m really e/cited to %ave -os% .erlan
c%ief operatin6 oMcer of Butter0y La1s %ere today. -os%4 %o23re t%in6s<
-os% .erlan: T%in6s are 6reat4 t%is %as 1een a fantastic conference so far.
AA: Butter0y La1s is one of t%e :rst companies t%at 1rou6%t A$,C minin6 to t%e
masses 2it% a series of products t%at ena1led people to almost Bplu6 and playC
minin6 as t%ey didn3t %ave to set up t%eir o2n ri6s and to really deliver t%e
minin6 e/perience4 ri6%t<
-.: ;es4 t%at3s 1een our focus4 to 1rin6 minin6 to t%e people t%at 2ouldn3t
normally mine or t%e ne2 people 2%o aren3t as tec%nical savvy as t%e traditional
Bitcoin miner.
AA: Pro1a1ly t%e 1est +no2n A$,C miner is t%e -alapeVo 2%ic% is sold many4
many units over a lon6 period of time. At least t%at3s t%e one ,3ve %eard of t%e
most4 1ut you %ave a muc% 1roader ran6e of products.
-.: ;es t%e -alapeVo %as 1een 2idely popular4 it e/ceeded our e/pectations
p%enomenally. 8e3ve s%ifted tens of t%ousands of t%ose units alone. 8e do %ave
a 2ide ran6e4 many t%in6s from t%e small scale 2%ic% 2e use t%e -alapeVo for4
to t%e industrial scale 2%ic% is our mini"ri6 2%ic% is up2ards of O??(i6a#as% per
second. ,n contrast to t%e -alapeVo 2%ic% is O(i6a#as% per second.
AA: Recently t%e c%an6e in price %as certainly read5usted t%e pro:ta1ility of
minin6 and some of t%e eAuipment t%at per%aps %ad seen to 1e reac%in6 t%e end
of life in terms of pro:ta1ility 1ecause of t%e increase of minin6 diMculty. T%at
2e see 2it% t%e increase of t%e Bitcoin price4 t%ey suddenly came 1ac+ into play4
ri6%t<
-.: ;ea% a1solutely4 it3s 1een an a1solutely 2ild ride4 2%en 2e 2ere ori6inally
startin6 to desi6n t%e A$,Cs. 8e 2ere loo+in6 at a S6 " SJI price point for Bitcoin
e/c%an6e rate4 it started 6oin6 up from t%ere so 2e %ad to read5ust t%e pricin6
model and everyt%in6. 8%at 2e found 2as at t%e SJ?? price point t%e
pro:ta1ility of our units up until a1out 9??"million diMculty and even today 2e
%aven3t reac%ed t%at a SJ?? price point.
At a SJ??? price point4 t%at 6oes up a J??? fold. T%e diMculty can 5ust s+y"roc+et
and t%ey3ll still 1e pro:ta1le. 8e still %ave people 1uyin6 t%e 6Onanometer stu=
today4 even in t%e face of 28? 0:45:08.9! 1ein6 imminent and in t%e future a
lo2er process node as 2ell.
AA: >ne of t%e concepts ,3ve 1een tryin6 to e/plain to start"ups in t%e Bitcoin
space is t%at not%in6 2or+s on a linear scale and if you 1ecome successful in
Bitcoin4 t%e most dan6erous t%in6 is t%at you 2ill 1ecome successful so fast t%at
you3re over2%elmed 1y lo6arit%mic demand.
-.: ;es4 it3s 1een a s%oc+. 8e 6re2 from P employees a1out a year and a %alf
a6o4 2e %ave over J?? employees no2. 8e scaled up from 5ust a %andful after
t%e )P(A products4 2e %ave a1out JG employees at t%at point. By t%e time 2e
started s%ippin6 t%e A$,C products 2e %ave over O? employees and 1y t%e time
2e really scaled up t%e A$,Cs and cleared t%e 1ac+"lo6 2e3re no2 over J??
employees.
Tryin6 to scale up a 1usiness t%at Auic+ly in a matter of mont%s4 from JG people
to JJG people is a lo6istics ni6%tmare and it3s one of t%e t%in6s t%at contri1uted
to our delays in 6ettin6 orders out and it3s 1een a real stru66le.
AA: )or some of t%e early 1uyers4 certainly one of t%e diMculties in t%is model
%as 1een t%at since t%e ori6inal purc%ase 2as priced in Bitcoin and t%e delays
2ere a=ectin6 t%e potential pro:ta1ility of t%e ri6s. ,t 1ecame a 2idenin6 6ap for
some of t%e earlier 1uyers 2%o 2ere seein6 t%eir initial investment4 essentially if
t%ey +ept %old of t%eir Bitcoin t%ey 2ould %ave increased in value 1ut t%ey
couldn3t do t%at 1ecause t%ey 2ere 2aitin6 for ri6s.
,t 1ecame a 1it of an adventure and a 2aitin6 6ame4 , +no2 t%at you %ad a
si6ni:cant 1ac+"lo6 of orders t%at 2ere una1le to 1e delivered as Auic+ly as you
2anted t%em to 1e. #o2 is t%at situation today4 2%ere does t%e 1ac+"lo6 stand
and %o2 con:dent are you in terms of deliverin6 rapidly<
-.: Let me address t%e :rst part of t%at4 t%e delay in our s%ippin6 2%ic%4 a6ain
2e3re very sorry for. 8e3ve al2ays priced t%ese in E$F not in Bitcoin 1ecause of
t%e volatility of Bitcoin4 2e do accept Bitcoin t%rou6% BitPay 2%o %as 1een 6reat
t%rou6%out t%is 2%ole process. 8e do t%is in E$F for precisely t%at pro1lem4 2e
don3t 2ant to 1e in t%e position of B2e sold t%is to you for I?"Bitcoins4 1ut no2
I?"Bitcoins is 2ort% SI?4???C4 and 2e don3t 2ant to 1e in t%e position of 2%ere
2e %ave cost you t%at money.
8e sell it in E$F as t%e E$F is relatively sta1le. 8%at RG??E$F 2as 2ort% a
year4 is still rou6%ly 2ort% t%e same today. -ust 1ecause 2e accept t%e payment
in Bitcoin4 doesn3t mean 2e3re pricin6 or valuin6 t%e devices in Bitcoin so if you
paid in Bitcoin and you t%ou6%t t%at Bitcoin 2as 6oin6 to 6o up , 2ould %ave
purc%ased more Bitcoin. ,t3s very easy to loo+ 1ac+ at t%is and say B,f , %ad %eld
onto Bitcoin ,3d 1e ric%C4 if 2e +ne2 t%at t%en everyone 2ould 1e multi"
millionaires. , 2ould %ave mort6a6ed my %ouse and purc%ased tonnes of Bitcoins
at SJ? a coin last year4 no1ody +ne2 it 2as 6oin6 to 6o up and certainly , don3t
t%in+ any1ody 2ould t%in+ it 2ould 6o up to SJ??? in t%e span of a mont%.
AA: ;ea%4 t%e ot%er 2ay you 2ould 1e in t%e opposite situation. T%ere is ris+ on
1ot% sides of t%ese 2ild currency 0uctuations.
-.: Ri6%t and if it %ad 6one t%e ot%er 2ay and 2e refunded people in t%e Bitcoin
t%at t%ey paid4 e6 I?"Bitcoin are no2 only 2ort% SJ eac% people 2ould 1e
screamin6 a1out t%at and ri6%tly so4 t%at 2ould 1e completely unfair. 8%en it
6oes t%e ot%er 2ay , understand t%at feelin6 and in t%at position , can a1solutely
understand t%at feelin6 1ut from a 1usiness perspective it3s 5ust not somet%in6
t%at3s even feasi1le. 8e don3t +eep t%e Bitcoin4 2e 6o t%rou6% BitPay and it3s
converted to E$F immediately 1ecause 2e can3t pay our vendors4 t%e foundry or
anyt%in6 in Bitcoin unfortunately.
,t 2ould 1e 6reat if 2e could operate our entire 1usiness on Bitcoin4
unfortunately t%at3s not t%e reality ri6%t no2. $o 2e still %ave to operate in E$F
or ot%er :at currencies. 8%at 2as t%e second part of your Auestion<
AA: >+4 t%is created a perfect storm 2%ere you simultaneously %ave massive
currency 0uctuations and you 2ere %it 1y a tsunami of demand t%at completely
over2%elmed your a1ility to 1ot% create t%e product and t%en deliver it as 2ell as
%andlin6 t%e customer service and operational Auestions t%at 2ould come from
t%e product. ;ou3ve 1een a1le to4 in t%e meantime to scale up your employee
si'e and your operations. #o2 is t%e 1ac+"lo6 doin6 today4 2%ere are 2e in t%at
respect<
-.: 8e3ve actually cleared t%e 1ac+"lo6 and it3s a %u6e relief4 2e3ve s%ipped
almost O?4??? units. ,n contrast 2it% our )P(As 2%ic% 2ere 2idely successful
and , t%in+ 2e s%ipped more )P(As t%an most vendors 2e s%ipped a1out R???
units. T%ey 2ere diMcult to 6et out 1ecause t%ey 2ere la1our intensive to
assem1le and 2e3re tryin6 to move a2ay from t%at 2it% our ne2 product t%at 2ill
1e muc% easier to assem1le. 8e3re no2 doin6 at O?4??? and t%at num1er is 5ust
mind"1o66lin64 in t%e face of ,ntel or in t%e face of A&F of course t%ose num1ers
are very small 1ut for a small operation to %ave a O?4??? unit turnover4 t%at3s
pretty %u6e.
8e do everyt%in64 2e don3t outsource t%e manufacturin6 and 2e don3t outsource
anyt%in6. 8e 6et everyt%in6 in t%rou6% t%e Hansas City oMce4 2e assem1le4
pac+ and s%ip from t%ere and it3s really a soup to nuts operation. Clearin6 our
1ac+"lo6 2as a %u6e relief4 2e did 6et over2%elmed and it 2as a stru66le to
1uild up to t%e point t%at 2e3re at no2. 8e3re in a very 6ood place no24 it3s
6reat. 8e %ave a lot of manufacturin6 and s%ippin6 capacity4 2e %ave a lot of
processes in place.
,t3s still an on"6oin6 process4 2e3re still 6ro2in6 and learnin6 1ut 2e did learn a
lot of lessons and 2e continue to learn t%ese lessons. $ome of t%em are painful
and %ard 2on 1ut , t%in+ 2e serve as an e/ample to ot%er companies appearin6
no2 on 2%at to do and 2%at not to do 2%at 2or+s and 2%at doesn3t 2or+. T%en
you pile on top of t%is delay4 in terms of 6eneral lo6istics4 you pile onto a delay of
a 1rand ne24 cuttin6 ed6e tec%nolo6y t%at no one %as done 1efore. >ur
6Onanometer 2as t%e most advanced minin6 c%ip at t%e time4 1ut 2e 2ere
delayed ma+in6 it completely functional.
,t didn3t perform e/actly %o2 2e e/pected 1ut it still performed very 2ell4 it
delayed us 5ust under 6"mont%s. A 6"mont% delay in a cuttin6"ed6e tec%nolo6y
industry is almost t%e norm4 it3s not unusual and even a JR"mont% delay is not
unusual. But 2e understand t%e time sensitiveness4 especially of Bitcoin minin6
and 2e understand 2%y it 2as especially e6re6ious t%at 2e 2ere so late 2it% t%e
product. T%e famous t2o 2ee+s t%in64 , only said t2o 2ee+s once in reference to
somet%in6 unrelated to t%e c%ips4 1ut t%e t2o 2ee+ t%in6 %as stuc+.
8%en , say t%ese t%in6s4 my %eart 6oes out to t%e people4 , 2is% , could convey
to t%e people. , 1elieved t%at 2e 2ere 6oin6 to do t%is 2it%in R2ee+s to a mont%4
t%is is data t%at , 6et from ot%er people and , don3t %ave control over t%e entire
scope of t%e pro5ect. , rely on ot%er people4 ot%er teams4 ot%er manufacturin6
and t%is is t%e information t%at , 6et from t%em and it3s 2%at , 1elieve at t%e time
2%en , 6ive it to t%e people.
, a1solutely %ave no desire to lie4 if , t%in+ it3s 6oin6 to 1e 6"mont%s ,3ll a1solutely
say it3ll 1e 6"mont%s. ,f , say it3ll 1e R4 P or G 2ee+s4 t%at3s 2%at , t%in+ it3s 6oin6
to 1e. &ay1e my crime is of 1ein6 optimistic and ,3m tryin6 to temper t%at in t%at
particular aspect. , 2ant to 1e optimistic and , 2ant t%is to not only 1e a
pro:ta1le venture for everyone involved 1ut also a fun venture. ,f its 2or+ and its
6ruellin6 2or+in6 and you3re 5ust slo66in6 t%rou6% it4 no1ody 2ants to do t%at4 ,
2ant it to 1e fun for every1ody so t%e optimism +ind of s%o2s t%rou6% 2it% t%at.
, do understand t%e temper no2 6oin6 for2ard and , t%in+ ,3ll do 1etter in t%at
aspect. 8e at Butter0y La1s 2ant people to 1e e/cited a1out our products 1ut
2e 2ant to provide realistic e/pectations and tryin6 to 1alance t%ose t2o t%in6s
is diMcult. 8e3re e/cited a1out it4 t%is is a 1rand ne2 industry4 it3s a1solutely
fantastic4 so it3s a %ard 1alance to stri+e.
AA: ;ea%4 re1uildin6 a plane 2%ile it3s 6oin6 O??mp% at P@4???ft is a diMcult
e/perience ,3m sure. , %ave to say t%at it3s important t%at you3re still around4 2e
+no2 2%ere you operate from4 and you %aven3t disappeared into a t%ird 2orld
country and %ad sur6ery to c%an6e your features. ;ou %ave stuc+ t%rou6% t%is
and persisted and %ave no2 1een a1le to deliver t%e product t%at people are
loo+in6 for. T%at certainly puts to rest a lot of conspiracy t%eories 2%ic% 2ere
2rit%e at t%e early sta6e 2%ic% is a natural part of a fast 6ro2in6 environment.
&y Auestion to you is4 you %ave learnt t%e lesson 1ut you3re still livin6 life on a
lo6arit%mic scale4 you3re still c%ief operations oMcer on a company t%at3s 6oin6
to operate on a lo6arit%mic scale 2%et%er you li+e it or not. ;ou are as successful
as you3d li+e to 1e4 you s%ifted O?4??? units t%is year4 are you ready for O??4???
units ne/t year<
-.: ,f 2e %ad to s%ip O??4??? unit today 2e 2ould still %ave to scale up
dramatically4 if 2e 2ere faced 2it% O??4??? units , 2ould certainly loo+ into
outsourcin6 t%e assem1ly especially 1ecause no2 it3s muc% simpler. ,f 2e tried to
outsource our current units4 it 2ould ta+e a very lon6 time and 1e very
complicated as t%ere are lots of little parts4 scre2s4 nuts4 1olts and you %ave to
6et t%e t%ermal paste 5ust ri6%t and t%e %eat sin+s 5ust ri6%t4 t%e torAue on t%e
scre2s for t%e %eat sin+ 5ust ri6%t.
(ettin6 a4 say4 a C%inese manufacturer or even a domestic manufacturer in t%e
E$ 2ould 1e very costly and time consumin6. But 6oin6 for2ard 2it%out ne2
products it3s muc% easier so 2e could outsource t%at and 2e actually did %alf
2ay t%rou6% our product of t%e 6Onm4 2e outsourced %alf of our -alapeVo
production to anot%er local company in Hansas City. Even t%ou6% t%e -alapeVo is
simple device it too+ t%em over a mont% to 6et t%em 2%ere t%ey 2ere producin6
t%em properly and t%at is our simplest device.
,f 2e 2ould %ave done t%at 2it% our current product4 it 2ould %ave 1een
impossi1le 2it% t%e mini"ri6s. 8it% t%e sin6les and t%e little sin6les it pro1a1ly
2ould %ave e/tended our 1ac+"lo6 1y a mont% or t2o at least. 8e3re ready for4 at
t%is point4 to do JO?? R??? units a day in our s%op. Could 2e scale t%e
O??4???4 2e could. T%ere 2ould certainly 1e a 1ac+"lo6 if t%ere 2as O??4???
orders 1ut 2e could outsource t%at pretty easily4 2e are prepared to scale to t%at
and t%at 2ould 1e 6reat if 2e 6ot to t%at t%is year.
As ,3ve said at t%e conference %ere4 , t%in+ minin6 is 6oin6 to a more industrial
scale so you3re 6oin6 to see a lot 1i66er units in terms of more %as% rate in a
%i6%er density environment rat%er t%an a lot of little units 6oin6 out. T%at3s
unfortunate in some aspects 1ecause t%e -alapeVo demonstrates t%at people
2ant to 6et t%eir feet 2et4 t%ey 2ant to 1e a part of t%is 2%ole t%in6 1ut t%ey
don3t 2ant to put out SO??? 1ecause t%at3s a %u6e investment.
SJ@O " SR@O4 t%at3s not 1ad4 t%at3s li+e a 2ee+ of partyin6 or 2%at %ave you. ;ou
%ave can a=ord t%at4 you can3t really a=ord to 5ust 1lo2 SO??? on a 2%im. 8e
%ave some ideas and some t%in6s comin6 out t%at 2ill %opefully cater t%ose
people 2%o still 2ant to da11le4 2%o 2ant to 6et t%eir feet 2et. , t%in+ t%ere is a
1i6 lac+ of t%at industry"2ide ri6%t no2 and t%at %inders people from 6ettin6
introduced to Bitcoin minin6 2%ic% is somet%in6 t%at 2e 2ant to avoid4 so it3s an
important t%in6 to us.
AA: Are you concerned a1out centrali'ation of t%e minin6 functions4 t%at3s
certainly t%at3s discussed a lot in t%e forums and t%e 6eneral community4 t%e
idea t%at if minin6 1ecomes more centrali'ed t%an it is today t%en it puts a
1i66er and ric%er tar6et for someone to attac+ in order to cause pro1lems 2it%
Bitcoin. Are you concerned at all 2it% minin6 centrali'ation or do you t%in+ t%at
t%e 1road availa1ility of small scale minin6 ri6s t%at avera6e consumers can 1uy
2ill counter"act t%at<
-.: T%ere is actually several facets to t%at Auestion. T%e :rst one is4 let3s say
you3re a small miner4 let3s say you %ave a -alapeVo. Typically spea+in6 you don3t
solo mine 2it% a small miner4 it3s 5ust not pro:ta1le so t%e only people actually
contri1utin6 to t%e security of t%e net2or+ are t%e people t%at are actually
minin6 1loc+s. ,n today3s minin6 industry4 t%at is primarily t%e pools. $o you
e=ectively %ave seven or ei6%t pools t%at are creatin6 most of t%e 1loc+s on t%e
Bloc+c%ain so you already %ave a centrali'ed system.
;ou do %ave miners every2%ere4 t%ey can 6o 2%erever t%ey 2ant di=erent
pools etc. But you e=ectively %ave a centrali'ed system4 as 2e 6o for2ard and
6et into industrial scale minin6 and t%is is 2%at , 6ave my tal+ on and 2ill 1e
spea+in6 in Las 7e6as a1out t%is as 2ell. 8e3re 6oin6 to see it actually 1ecomin6
less centrali'ed4 2e3re 6oin6 to %ave lar6e companies maintainin6 t%eir o2n
minin6 farms and t%ey 2ill 1e solo minin64 t%ey 2on3t 1e connectin6 to a pool.
T%en you3ll %ave lar6e minin6 companies4 t%ey 2ill also 1e solo minin64 t%ey
2on3t 1e connectin6 to a pool eit%er. T%e small miners 2ill still 1e connectin6 to a
pool 1ut you3re 6oin6 to %ave t%ese entities out %ere 6lo1ally t%at %ave t%eir o2n
lar6e minin6 farms t%at are e=ectively solo minin6. $o it3s 6oin6 to 1e split up4
you3re 6oin6 to 1e dra2in6 o= lots of %as%in6 po2er from pools or as more
%as%in6 po2er 6ets added4 t%ey 5ust 2on3t 6et added onto t%e pools. T%e pools
2ill remain relatively static in terms of 2%o t%ey %ave connectin6 to it.
8e3re 6oin6 to %ave more separate entities securin6 t%e net2or+ t%an 2e
currently %ave no24 2%ic% is a 6ood t%in6. #o2ever one of t%e 1ad t%in6s a1out
t%at 2it% 1ecomin6 furt%er decentrali'ed 2as an e/ample last year 2%ere 2e
%ad t%e Bloc+c%ain split. ,f you recall t%at4 t%e only t%in6 t%at really saved t%e
Bitcoin net2or+ 2as t%e fact t%at 2e 2ere a1le to contact enou6% of t%e top
pools and %ave t%em a6ree on 2%ic% for+ of t%e c%ain 2as t%e valid one. ,f t%e
net2or+ 2as entirely decentrali'ed or furt%er t%an it is no24 t%en it 2ould %ave
1een impossi1le to contact enou6% people and t%at 2ould %ave 1een t%e end of
Bitcoin.
T%e centrali'ation of minin6 2%ere it can 1e mana6ed t%rou6% emer6ency
contactin6 is actually a 6ood t%in6 for t%e %ealt% of Bitcoin4 it3s a 1ad t%in6 in
terms of t%e li1ertarian aspect and t%e freedom of Bitcoin 1ut if 2e maintain t%at
, don3t +no2 if t%e %ealt% of Bitcoin 2ould continue. , don3t +no2 2%et%er it
2ould survive in t%e face of a catastrop%ic pro1lem. $o you +ind of %ave to
1alance t%e t2o on 2%ic% is t%e lesser of t%e t2o evils4 , totally understand t%e
li1ertarian side4 , totally a6ree 2it% t%at side. ,3m all a1out t%e freedom to
controllin6 your o2n destiny4 as far as t%at 6oes 1ut if it dies t%en you %ave
not%in6 to control any2ay. ;ou %ave to :nd t%at 1alance.
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(.n- intermission*
AA: Bac+ in sprin6 R?JP 2%en 2e %ad t%e %u6e Bloc+c%ain for+4 one of t%e for+s
ended up 1ein6 R6 1loc+s a%ead of t%e ot%er it 2as a pretty si6ni:cant 6ap.
>ne of t%e tools used at t%e time 2as t%e 1uilt in emer6ency 1roadcast system4
not many people +no2 a1out t%is 1ut t%e only point of control t%at $atos%i
*a+amoto %as and no2 some of t%e core developers %ave is t%e a1ility to send a
simple messa6e to everyone connected 2it% a Bitcoin node in order to notify
t%em of an emer6ency situation. T%at tool 2as used usin6 t%at for+ in sprin6.
#o2 is t%at used in t%e conte/t of eit%er dedicated A$,C miner t%at3s connected
via E$B4 suc% as a -alapeVo or some of t%e more sop%isticated minin6 ri6s t%at
are industrial scale<
-.: ,n t%e conte/t of minin64 it actually4 as , said 1efore4 t%e miners are not
directly securin6 t%e net2or+. ,t3s t%e pools t%at are doin6 t%at4 it3s t%e pools t%at
are actually minin6 so t%e miners 2ill never see t%at messa6e unless t%ey3re
runnin6 t%eir o2n 2allet soft2are on t%eir computer. But t%e actual minin6
computer 2ill never see t%at messa6e4 t%ere is no BitcoinF on t%em4 Bitcoin is
not runnin6 on t%em at all. T%e pools are minin6 and t%ey are typically a E*,W
variant4 primarily Linu/ to t%e 1est of my +no2led6e and t%e BitcoinF is runnin6
in command line so t%ey 2ill never see t%at messa6e eit%er unless t%ey %appen
to 1e doin6 a 6etinfo or some ot%er met%od of loo+in6.
$o 2%at %appened at t%at time 2as t%at 2e literally pic+ed up our p%ones and
called t%e ot%er people. A lot of us pool operators %ave t%e p%one num1ers of
ot%er 1i6 pool operators4 , %appened to 1e in C%ica6o airport 6ettin6 on an
airplane 2%en someone called me as+in6 2%at version of Bitcoin 2as my pool
on. Coincidentally , 2as on t%e version t%at 2as considered t%e correct version at
t%e time so fortunately , didn3t %ave to do anyt%in6. But some of t%e ot%er 1it
pools suc% as 1tc(uild 2ere on t%e ot%er side of t%e for+ and if 2e 2eren3t a1le
to contact t%e operator4 especially 2it% 1tc(uild 1ein6 one of t%e lar6est pools. ,t
2ould %ave 1een catastrop%ic4 t%ey 2ould %ave continued minin6 and t%e 6ap
2ould %ave 1een a lot more t%an R6 1loc+s4 it could %ave 1een J?? 1loc+s.
;ou %ave t2o fully formed and 2or+in6 c%ains of Bitcoin at t%at point and t%at
2ould 1e a disaster.
AA: 8it% a si6ni:cant %as%in6 po2er on 1ot% sides4 part of t%e issue %ere 2as
t%at it 2asn3t 5ust a small percenta6e of minin6 t%at %ad cleaved o=. ,t %ad pretty
muc% 6one ri6%t do2n t%e middle4 t%ere 2as %alf t%e minin6 po2er on eac%
c%ain. ,n t%e future4 do you foresee a need to create interfaces in t%ese industrial
ri6s for t%e minin6 operators t%at 2ill propa6ate t%is emer6ency messa6e or to
provide contact information so t%at if suc% an emer6ency arises in t%e future 2e
can contact t%ese industrial miners<
-.: T%at may actually 1e a 6ood idea4 ,3ve never actually considered t%at 1ut t%at
introduces a %ost of pro1lems includin6 some security concerns t%at , don3t +no2
2%et%er people 2ould 1e comforta1le 2it%. As 2e 6o for2ard4 2e3re fairly
centrali'ed 2it% minin6 no2 so inter"personal relations%ips and direct contact
information is no2 6ood. $ince t%at for+ %appened t%ere is no2 a mailin6"list and
2e %ave stren6t%ened t%ose inter"connections in terms of s%arin6 our emer6ency
contact num1ers on t%e mailin6 list so no2 many more people +no2 t%e
emer6ency contact num1ers.
8e may t%rou6% t%e Bitcoin foundation or some ot%er Auasi 6overnin6 1ody4
may1e 2e s%ould re6ister our important information for t%e 1i6 time miners and
lar6e companies and say BT%is is our emer6ency contact if t%ere is a pro1lemC.
Because it3s in t%e 1est interest of every1ody4 no1ody 2ants to minin6 on t%e
2ron6 c%ain so you 2ould 2ant to participate4 t%ere is no scenario 2%ere you
2ouldn3t 2ant to participate in t%at type of pro5ect. ,t3s not 6ood for any1ody to
%ave t%ose +ind of pro1lems.
AA: A1solutely4 let3s loo+ into t%e future for 5ust a second. ;ou3ve 6ot a 2%ole
ne2 series of products comin6 out and 2e3ve sAuee'ed out all of eMciency
1et2een CPE and A$,C and t%at 2as 1y :ve or si/ orders of ma6nitude in
eMciency 6ro2t%. *o2 2e3re loc+ed into &oores La24 so from no2 on c%ip
density dou1lin6 every JImont%s4 2e3re pretty muc% loc+ed into t%at pat%. 8e
can only sAuee'e out so muc% optimisation from t%e al6orit%m4 t%e %eat sin+ etc.
8e3re on a muc% more predicta1le 6ro2t% pat% as 2e 6o from 6O to
R?nanometers and 1elo24 2ould you a6ree<
-.: ;es4 t%e A$,C error e=ectively started 2it% JP?nanometer A$,C miner4 Avalon
2as on JJ?. , t%in+ most vendors s+ipped 9?nm4 2e came out 2it% 6Onm.
Everyone is movin6 to RInm no2 and t%at 2as all in t%e span of JI"mont%s at
most. $o 2e %ave far e/ceeded &oores la2 in terms of our industry and it3s a
6ruellin6 pace4 2e can3t +eep up4 miners can3t +eep up4 it3s %ard on everyone. $o
2e are no2 at RInm4 it3s cuttin6"ed6e4 it3s not 1leedin6"ed6e. ,ntel is usually
considered t%e most cuttin6"ed6e process node and t%ey3re currently 2or+in6 on
JGnanometer4 t%ey3re s%ippin6 JGnanometer and 2or+in6 on J?nm.
$o t%e ne/t process node after RInm is JG or J6nm dependin6 on 2%ic% foundry
you3re 2it%4 2e %ave pro1a1ly one more rapid 5ump to JGnanometer 1ut after
t%at 2e 2ill 1e up a6ainst t%e same 2all ,ntel is up a6ainst and 2e3ll %ave
no2%ere else to 6o. 8e3ll 1e 2it% ,ntel and &oores la2. ,3m loo+in6 for2ard to
t%at %onestly 1ecause it 2ill 6ive everyone a 1reat%er to sit 1ac+ and consider
%o2 to 6o for2ard instead of 5ust B8e %ave to 6et to t%e ne/t tec%nolo6y as fast
as 2e possi1ly canC and 5ust racin6 t%rou6% t%e tec%nolo6y :eld.
,t3ll 1e 6ood for t%e industry4 it3ll 1e 6ood for everyone. , t%in+ 2e3ll see an
e/pansion in 1readt%4 2ere at t%is tec%nolo6y 2all so instead of %avin6 fe2er
smaller faster more eMcient units to increase our %as% rate4 2e3re 6oin6 to start
seein6 t%em e/pandin6. 8e3re 6oin6 to %ave more and more of t%ese small
eMcient units and t%at is 6oin6 to present its o2n pro1lems in terms of po2er
density4 data centre space. ,t3s 6oin6 to 1e interestin64 , t%in+ t%at 2e3re 6oin6 to
1e tradin6 one particular pro1lem for anot%er 1ut at least it3ll 6ive us somet%in6
to focus on and 2e can rela/ a little 1it.
AA: $o it3s 6oin6 to 6o from primarily c%ip density to t%en platform and 1uild
density. Are 2e loo+in6 for2ard to J9C rac+ mounta1le %i6%ly dense air0o2
solutions to do t%is< Are 2e 6oin6 into t%at era<
-.: ;es4 2e3re 6oin6 into t%at era. ,t3s already a pro1lem 1ecause most data
centres are 2ired for 64???+8 per rac+4 may1e J?4???+8 per rac+ if you3re in a
6ood data centre. ,f you %ave a %i6% density data centre you 6et a 2%oppin6 JO
or may1e R?+ if you 6et a super a2esome data centre t%at are primed for ,B&
1lades or somet%in6. 8it% Bitcoin minin6 2e could easily consume O?+ or 6?+
+ilo2atts per rac+.
AA: $o 2e3re ta+in6 t%e +ind of diMculty t%at 2as developed 2it% 1lade level
density in t%e data centre t%at too+ us to a1out I4???+8 per rac+ to a1out JO4
R? and RO+ in some cases. *o2 2e3re 6oin6 to ta+e t%at a 2%ole level up.
-.: ;ea% and if you 6o to a data centre individual and t%ey3ve never %eard of
Bitcoin or t%ey don3t understand Bitcoin minin6 t%en t%eir en6ineers can3t even
conceive of a rac+ li+e t%is 1ecause t%e coolin6 reAuirements for coolin6
6?4???+8 in a rac+ is 6oin6 to reAuire custom desi6n. T%ere is not%in6 o= t%e
s%elf t%at 2ill 1e a1le to support t%at and t%ere is not%in6 t%at , can see in t%e
near future e/cept for Bitcoin minin6 t%at 2ill reAuire t%at +ind of cra'y air
evacuation and po2er density so it3s 6oin6 to %ave 1e custom desi6ned for
Bitcoin minin6.
T%at 6oes 1ac+ into t%e industrial scale minin64 you3re 6oin6 to need a data
centre 1uilt or converted to do Bitcoin minin64 it3s 6oin6 to 1e very speci:c. $o
2e3ve 6one from CPEs on every1ody3s des+top4 to A$,Cs t%at do only Bitcoin
minin64 no2 2e3re turnin6 our eyes to t%e data centre 2%ic% did re6ular
computers in a rac+ and a dell server to a data centre desi6ned for Bitcoin
minin6. T%ey are all 6oin6 to 1e mi6ratin6 to t%e places t%at %ave t%e c%eapest
po2er4 2e still %ave t%at to some e/tent suc% as (oo6le and t%e lar6er providers
loo+ for c%eaper po2er4 t%ey 1uild up t%eir data centres 1ecause t%ey %ave t%e
scale to reAuire t%at and it 1ecomes cost eMcient.
8it% Bitcoin minin6 even a very small player could consume t%e entire output of
a %ydro"electric dam. ,f you %ad someone come in ri6%t no2 and purc%ase
SGmillion 2ort% of eAuipment and t%ey can consume G&e6a8atts of po2er and
t%at 2ould 1e t%e entire output of a %ydro"electric dam so it3s 6oin6 to 1e a %u6e
c%allen6e for everyone involved. ,t3ll 1e very interestin6.
AA: But also si6%tin6 ne2 industry 2it% a lot of professional speciali'ation4
certainly t%e data centre space4 over t%e last R? years %as developed
%orrendously and t%is 5ust pus%es into a 2%ole ot%er level. , t%in+ it3s not only
e/citin6 1ut t%is also represents a level of investment and some cost t%at in itself
ma+es Bitcoin valua1le. ,f t%ere is a value 1e%ind Bitcoin4 somet%in6 1ac+in6
Bitcoin4 it3s not 5ust a capital investment in Bitcoin it3s also t%e capital investment
in t%e minin6 Kincompre%ensi1leL and it3ll 1e even more speciali'ed.
-.: ;es and t%e infrastructure. T%at3s 2%at at least , vie2 as very important4 2e
need a lot vested interests in a lot of diverse :elds so if someone does come in
and 2ants to 2rec+ Bitcoin in some fas%ion t%ere 2ill 1e outcry from various
di=erent :elds and di=erent constituents and any politician or 2%atever 2ould
t%in+ t2ice a1out ma+in6 everyone 2%o %as invested mad. T%e Auic+er 2e could
do t%at4 t%e Auic+er 2e can 6et every industry involved in t%e Bitcoin4 it3ll 1e
1etter for Bitcoin all around.
AA: 8ell t%is %as 1een a fascinatin6 discussion4 ,3m loo+in6 for2ard to t%e ne/t
products t%at come out of Butter0y La1s and , 2is% you a lot of success ridin6
t%e lo6arit%mic dra6on of operations t%at 2e are all on and 6ood luc+ to you.
-os% from Butter0y La1s4 t%an+ you so muc% for 5oinin6 me today.
-.: T%an+ you very muc%4 , appreciate you 6ivin6 me t%e time.
AL: T%an+s for listenin6 t%e episode 69 of Let3s Tal+ Bitcoin. T%e intervie2s 2it%
-os% .erlan and Tatiana &oro' 2ere produced 1y Andreas Antonopoulos. T%e
intervie2 2it% &ic%ael (oldstein 2as produced 1y $tep%anie &urp%y. #oliday
C%eer 2as produced and edited 1y Adam B. Levine and it featured Andreas
Antonopoulos and $tep%anie &urp%y. &usic 2as provided 1y -ared Ru1ens and
Calvin #enderson.
(ot any Auestions or comments< Email adamXletstal+1itcoin.com $ee you
ne/t time9