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CKLN-FM Mind Control Series
Table of Contents
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Updated July 1998
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CKLN-FM 88.1 Toronto - International Connection
Started March 16, 1997
This is a nine month series; episodes will be added as they occur.
CKLN would like to make the show available to other radio stations.
For more information or to be put on the transcript e-mail list
contact producer Wayne Morris at ckln@sac.ryerson.ca
Transcripts and tapes are available at the office of CKLN, 380 Victoria St.,
Jorgenson Hall, Ryerson University, Toronto, 416-595-1477.
Series Announcement
This Site Search
1. The CIA and Military Mind Control Research: Building the Manchurian Candidate - A lecture by
Dr. Colin Ross [More by and about Dr. Ross in MindNet] Also see Part 2.

2. Producer Wayne Morris Interviews Dr. Colin Ross. Also see Part 1.

3. Mind Control Survivors' Testimony at the Human Radiation Experiments Hearings

4. Producer Wayne Morris Interviews Ronald Howard Cohen - abducted by the military

5. Interview with Valerie Wolf, Claudia Mullen and Chris deNicola Ebner

6. Lecture by Dr. Alan Scheflin - History of Mind Control

7. Cludia Mullen - Presentation to the Believe the Children Conference, Interview

8. Lecture by Authors Walter Bowart, Alan Scheflin, and Randy Noblitt

9. Lecture by Therapist Valerie Wolf, M.S.W.:
Assessment and Treatment of Survivors of Sadistic Abuse

10. Talk by John Rappoport - The CIA, Mind Control, and Children

11. Interview with Valerie Wolf, M.S.W., therapist to trauma and mind control survivors

12. Presentation by Jeanette Westbrook, MSW, social worker and ritual abuse survivor - Issues
Regarding Prosecuting for Adult Survivors of Ritual Abuse - followed by an inteview

13. Interview with Dr. Stephen Kent, sociologist at the University of Alberta in Edmonton, Canada,
on Cults and Ritual Abuse

14. Making up for Lost Time Conference, Thunder Bay - Peter Tooey Interview - response to
allegations of Masonic ritual abuse

15. Making up for Lost Time Conference, Thunder Bay - Judy Steed Interview - reporter for The
Toronto Star has covered issues of child sexual abuse and ritual abuse

16. Making up for Lost Time Conference, Thunder Bay - Lynne Moss-Sharman Interview - ACHES-
MC contact, ritual abuse victim

17. An interview with removed by request, ritual abuse victim used in US covert operations

18. Blanche Chavoustie Interview - survivor of U.S. government mind control experiments, ACHES-
MC contact

19. Presentation by Professor Alan Scheflin - Risk Management in Dissociative Disorder and
Trauma Therapy

20. Presentation by author Walter Bowart - The Secret History of Mind Control

21. Fritz Springmeier Interview on the Illuminati and mind control slavery

22. Interview with Cisco Wheeler, co-author of The Illuminati Formula Used to Create an
Undetectable Mind Controlled Slave

23. Interview with Brice Taylor, a former Whitehouse-level mind control victim and author of two
books on her story and how to recover from programming

24. Interview with Gail Fisher Taylor, a psychotherapist working with survivors of trauma.

25. Interview with Dr. Connie Kristiansen, a professor of psychology specializing in recovered
memory research and sexual abuse issues.

26. Ritual Abuse Panel -- Toronto psychotherapist Gail Fisher-Taylor and Caryn Stardancer,
California-based advocate for survivors and publisher of "Survivorship".

27. Don Gillmor, author of "I Swear By Apollo," about Dr. Ewen Cameron's experiments in
Montreal, discusses government and military mind control.

CKLN Series Table of Contents

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CKLN-FM Mind Control Series
Available Audio Cassettes
and Transcripts
Updated July 1998
Tapes Available at:
CKLN-FM
380 Victoria St
Toronto, Ontario
Canada
M5B 1W7
416-595-1477
416-595-0226 fax
E-mail: ckln@sac.ryerson.ca
This is the final updated tape catalogue containing descriptions of all shows done in the radio series.

MK RADIO 1 - Colin Ross lecture part 1
A lecture by Dr. Colin Ross entitled "The CIA and Military Mind Control Research: Building the
Manchurian Candidate" given April 18, 1996 in Orange County, California. Dr. Ross gives a thorough
overview of the documented history of US CIA and military mind control experimentation, particularly
creating mind controlled agents using hypnosis and trauma-based dissociation (or multiple personalities).
He talks about extensive bizarre experimental projects and the many CIA mind control contracts with top
psychiatrists, psychologists and institutions. He discusses Canadian doctor George Estabrooks and his role
in developing Manchurian Candidate agents for military, intelligence, and police agencies using hypnosis,
drugs, brain implants, and trauma-based dissociation.
MK RADIO 4 - interview with Colin Ross - 1
MK RADIO 5 - interview with Colin Ross - 2
Wayne Morris interviews Dr. Colin Ross about dissociation and the many CIA mind control projects
including those that involved creating dissociation or multiple personalities in children. We discuss
Canada's involvement in the mind control projects, the involvement of doctors, universities, hospitals,
prisons, and other institutions across Canada and the U.S. in CIA mind control experiments. We also
discuss the documented history of U.S. government mind control experiments on children including LSD
and electronic brain implant experimentation.
MK RADIO 6 - Claudia Mullen and radiation hearings mind control testimony
Claudia Mullen describes the experience of giving testimony at the Presidential hearings on human
radiation experiments as a survivor of government radiation and mind control experiments. Side B of this
tape is the actual testimony given on March 15,1995 to President Clinton's Advisory Committee on
Human Radiation Experiments by Claudia Mullen, Chris DeNicola and their therapist Valerie Wolf
regarding government mind control experimentation. This historic testimony broke the silence about
government sponsored mind control experiments on children.
MK RADIO 7 - Ronald Howard Cohen 1
MK RADIO 8 - Ronald Howard Cohen 2
Ronald Howard Cohen, writer and activist, tells his experience of being abducted while hitchhiking in the
late 60's to a military base in Maryland and being severely drugged there. Ronald wrote a book about this
experience and the transcripts of this book and his life's writings were stolen by the US government.
Agents of CIA, FBI, and US Army Intelligence informed Ronald that his book would not be published
and offered him a job at the New York Times to keep him quiet to which he refused. He has since
rewritten the book.
MK RADIO 9 - Overview of Mind Control - Bowart, Scheflin, Noblitt
A panel presentation at the Cult and Ritual Abuse, Trauma-Based Mind Control and Dissociation
symposium. Walter Bowart, author of "Operation Mind Control" talks about his research into mind
control, the CIA's and military's use of mind control. Alan Scheflin addresses therapists dealing with
clients with recovered memories of abuse in today's atmosphere of intimidation with the false memory
movement. Scheflin states that therapists now must recognise therapy as a social influence setting and
must be knowledgeable about social influence and police interrogation literature. Randy Noblitt speaks
about cult and satanic ritual abuse and the use of trauma in religious ritual.
MK RADIO 10 - History of Mind Control - Alan Scheflin - 1
MK RADIO 11 - History of Mind Control - Alan Scheflin - 2
Alan Scheflin presents "The History of Mind Control - What We Can Prove and What We Can't" which
documents the several centuries of history of mind control from the use of the Malleus Malificarum in the
Inquisition to the CIA's extensive mind control projects. He talks about the use of hypnosis, trauma-based
dissociation, drugs, sensory deprivation, electroshock, and other methods of mind control
experimentation. Alan Scheflin is a lawyer and is one of the world's foremost researchers of mind control
as well as an authority in legal aspects of trauma/dissociation therapy. He has written such books as "The
Mind Manipulators", "Trance on Trial", and most recently co-authored the encyclopaedic "Memory,
Trauma Treatment and the Law".
MK RADIO 12 - Interview with Valerie Wolf, Claudia Mullen, Chris Ebner
Immediately after giving the historic testimony of mind control experimentation to the Presidential
Advisory Committee on Human Radiation Experiments, Will Snodgrass interviews Valerie Wolf, Claudia
Mullen, Chris Ebner. They expand on their testimonies with information about the CIA doctors and
locations involved in their experimentation and abuse, the CIA's use of children for mind control, the
training of children for mind controlled sexual slavery and assassination.
MK RADIO 13 - Interview with Claudia Mullen - 1
Wayne Morris interviews Claudia Mullen about her experience as a mind controlled slave for the US
government. Claudia alleges that doctors at primarily Tulane University, New Orleans had experimented
on her starting when she was 8 years old and trained her to be a sex slave for political blackmail purposes.
She talks of being used to compromise military officers, politicians and other prominent officials in sex
situations which was videotaped by CIA including being used to compromise Senator Frank Church
during the time of the Church Committee Hearings looking into CIA wrongdoings. We discuss her
testimony at the radiation hearings and her memories of experimentation including drugs, electroshock,
severe traumatisation and abuse by CIA doctors such as Robert Heath, Martin Orne, Ewen Cameron,
Sidney Gottlieb and others.
MK RADIO 16 - Valerie Wolf presentation - 1
MK RADIO 17 - Valerie Wolf presentation - 2
Valerie Wolf, MSW presents "Assessment and Treatment of Survivors of Sadistic Abuse" at the Believe
the Children conference in April, 97. Valerie gave testimony at the U.S. government radiation hearings
about mind control experimentation with her clients. In this presentation, Valerie describes her methods
and approach to treating survivors of mind control. She explains important factors in the healing process
along with her own experiences. She also describes the different mind control programs used and how she
deals with them in a therapy session. She explains her belief that in trauma-based conditioning,
remembering what caused the trauma breaks the control of that conditioning. This presentation contains
very valuable information for professionals working with mind control and abuse survivors.
MK RADIO 18 - Jon Rappoport lecture - 1
Investigative journalist Jon Rappoport gives a talk entitled "The CIA, Mind Control and Children" about
the CIA's abuse of children to create mind control agents. Author of "U.S. Government Mind Control
Experiments on Children", he talks about the impact of the mind control testimony submitted to the
Presidential hearings on radiation experiments. Jon speaks about the mindset of those responsible for
these horrors, the Nazi connections with the mind control doctors and the implications of mind control on
society.
MK RADIO 19 - Jon Rappoport - 2, Valerie Wolf interview - 1
MK RADIO 20 - Valerie Wolf interview - 2
Wayne Morris interviews Valerie Wolf, MSW about her experiences giving mind control testimony at the
radiation hearings and treating mind control survivors. We discuss dissociation, healing processes, ritual
abuse aspects of mind control, and her therapeutic approaches that have enabled survivors to overcome
the devastating effects of trauma-based mind control. We also discuss the effect of the activities of the
False Memory Syndrome Foundation on therapy and access to survivors and the public's changing
perception of these issues.
MK RADIO 21 - Jeanette Westbrook presentation - 1
MK RADIO 22 - Jeanette Westbrook presentation/ interview - 2
Jeanette Westbrook, MSW talks about her experiences in how to prosecute a perpetrator of ritual abuse
and mind control. She had laid legal charges against her father alleging that he sexually abused and
ritually tortured her as a child and throughout her teen years. Her father was a high ranking Freemason, a
deacon in the Mormon church, and was the Executive Director of the organization responsible for
inspecting all nuclear power stations in the U.S. After refusing a plea bargain of $50,000 and an
admission to "facilitating child sexual abuse" by her father, Jeanette began proceedings to extradite him to
stand charges in court. Just before he was due to appear in court, he suddenly died.
MK RADIO 23 - Dr. Stephen Kent interview - 1
MK RADIO 24 - Dr. Stephen Kent interview - 2, Judy Steed interview, Peter Tooey interview
Dr. Stephen Kent is a professor of sociology at U. of Alberta, Edmonton who specializes in controversial
religious cults and the allegations of ritual abuse against these groups. We discuss the alleged involvement
of elements of Freemasonry in ritual abuse, issues regarding police investigations of ritual abuse crimes,
and the backlash against people coming forward with abuse accounts by the False Memory Syndrome
Foundation. In an interview with CBC, Freemason Peter Tooey rebuts allegations of child sexual abuse
and ritual abuse by Masons in the Thunder Bay area. Toronto Star journalist Judy Steed, in an interview
with CBC Thunder Bay, talks about cases involving ritual and sexual abuse such as the Prescott, Ontario
case.
MK RADIO 25 - interview with Lynne Moss-Sharman - 1
MK RADIO 26 - interview with Lynne Moss-Sharman - 2
Lynne Moss-Sharman is the Canadian coordinator of ACHES-MC (Advocacy Committee for Human
Experimentation Survivors of Mind Control) and the Stone Angels, a ritual abuse support group in
Thunder Bay. Lynne alleges she was experimented on by CIA MKULTRA doctors Jose Delgado and
Ewen Cameron among others in horrific experiments. She also alleges that she was sexually and ritually
abused by her father and other Freemasons. We discuss her experiences in organizing conferences for
ritual abuse survivors and professionals dealing with these issues and with ACHES-MC's current
campaign to call for U.S. government hearings on mind control experimentation.
MK RADIO 27 - interview with KS - 1
In this extraordinary interview, K tells her story of being used for assassination, bodyguarding, smuggling
and other illegal activities for the Whitehouse, CIA, NASA, and the Mafia. She alleges that her father, a
CIA agent, had tortured and programmed her starting in her childhood. She describes the types of
operations and project codenames she was used for and names some of the people involved in her abuse
as a mind controlled operative, particularly George Bush and Henry Kissinger. We discuss the mind
control techniques that were used on her, the kinds of operations that she was controlled to do, the
involvement of the entertainment industry in mind control, and the mind control connections to the
implementation of a fascist "New World Order".
Tape MK 30 - Blanche Chavoustie - 1
Tape MK 31 - Blanche Chavoustie - 2
Blanche Chavoustie is the U.S. coordinator of ACHES-MC (Advocacy Committee for Human
Experimentation Survivors of Mind Control) and a survivor of experiments in hypnosis, brain implants,
and synthetic telepathy. Her accounts speak of a variety of experiments at sites that have been
documented to be involved in the CIA's MKULTRA mind control project such as Penn State, Syracuse
University, and Cornell University.
Tape MK 32 - Alan Scheflin - Risk Management in Dissociative Disorder and Trauma Therapy
This address was given at a joint conference of Int'l Society for the Study of Dissociation (ISSD) and Int'l
Society for Traumatic Stress Studies (ISTSS) in Montreal, Nov. 9/97. Alan talks to therapists and the
legal issues around trauma treatment that they must be aware of in this climate of intimidation and
lawsuits by the FMSF. This talks comes just after the U.S. government has moved to criminalize
psychotherapy, a main healing resource for victims of mind control. Alan Scheflin is one of the world's
foremost authorities on mind control.
Tape MK 33 - Walter Bowart - The Secret History of Mind Control - 1
Tape MK 34 - Walter Bowart - The Secret History of Mind Control - 2
Walter Bowart delivers "The Secret History of Mind Control" at the Ritual Trauma, Child Abuse and
Mind Control conference in Atlanta, Oct.2/97. In this slide presentation, Walter talks of the history of
mind control and the accompanying technologies from crude lobotomies to high-tech brain implants and
nanotechnology. Walter Bowart is a writer and researcher of mind control, author of "Operation Mind
Control" and founder and director of the Freedom of Thought Foundation.
Tape MK 35 - interview with Fritz Springmeier - 1
In this interview, Fritz Springmeier talks about how the Illuminati comprised of super international
finance capitalists families such as Rockefeller and Rothchild have developed total mind control and have
been using it to gain and consolidate power. The mind control techniques have been developed into the
sciences of trauma, electroshock, drugs, hypnosis, deception and structured programming. Fritz speaks of
how Nazi doctor Josef Mengele was used by the Illuminati to develop trauma-based mind control by
experimenting on Jewish victims in the Holocaust and after the war being smuggled to the U.S. to put
mind control into practice as one of the CIA's main mind control programmers. Fritz also speaks of the
involvement of Hollywood and the music industry in mind control slavery, the corporate world's use of
mind control, and of the government, military, and intelligence use of mind controlled slaves. Fritz has
helped Cisco Wheeler, an Illuminati family mind control victim, gain freedom from her programmers.
Fritz Springmeier is a researcher of the Illuminati families, minister to mind control victims and co-author
of such books as "The Top 13 Illuminati Bloodlines" and "The Illuminati Method Used to Create an
Undetectable Total Mind Controlled Slave".
Tape MK 40 - interview with Cisco Wheeler - 1
Tape MK 41 - interview with Cisco Wheeler - 2
Cisco Wheeler is a former Illuminati family mind control slave and co-author of "The Illuminati Method
Used to Create an Undetectable Total Mind Controlled Slave" and "Deeper Insights" books about trauma-
based mind control. She had escaped from her family's control with three other women after her main
programmer, her father, died. Cisco claims that she was programmed by Nazi Doctor Josef Mengele and
her father, who was trained by Mengele in mind control techniques. Cisco's family's military and political
connections run deep and is a descendant of U.S. President Ullyses S. Grant. Her father, an Illuminati and
Masonic grandmaster and mind control programmer conditioned Cisco from infancy with sexual abuse
and severe trauma. She was trained to sexually service the political elite including mayors, governors and
presidents starting with President Eisenhower when she was a child. Cisco talks about her struggles in
healing and the continued harassment she faces.
Tape MK 42 - interview with Brice Taylor - 1
Tape MK 43 - interview with Brice Taylor - 2
Brice Taylor is a former "Presidential model" mind controlled slave for the Whitehouse having been
abused by a number of presidents, high ranking officials and famous entertainers. She has survived
horrific abuse by her father and family since infancy including ritual trauma and sexual abuse and has
been programmed at military bases, medical centres, and NASA facilities. She has been used to sexually
service politicians, foreign officials, and other power brokers while under the influence of mind control.
She was also used to photographically remember secret project documents and New World Order plans
and store them in her "mind files" for retrieval for those that had access to her.
Tape MK 44 - interview with Gail Fisher-Taylor - 1
Tape MK 45 - interview with Gail Fisher-Taylor - 2
Gail Fisher-Taylor is a psychotherapist working with survivors of trauma. We discuss issues about the
nature of memory, "false memories", and the differences in how the mind processes traumatic experience
from non-traumatic experience and how that relates to implicit and explicit memory. We also discuss the
criminal nature of the context in which cult ritual abuse occurs and how this is often forgotten in the
sensationalisation of ritual abuse, particularly in the media. Cults and organized crime are involved in
child pornography (including child snuff films), child prostitution, drug trafficking, and money
laundering. We also discuss the effects groups like the False Memory Syndrome Foundation have had on
access and quality of resources available to abuse survivors.
Tape MK 46 - Panel Discussion on Ritual Abuse with Caryn Stardancer and Gail Fisher-Taylor
In this discussion we open the phone lines to questions and comments by listeners about ritual abuse.
Caryn Stardancer is a ritual abuse survivor and advocate and publisher of SurvivorShip, an excellent
resource for abuse survivors. Gail Fisher-Taylor is a Toronto-based therapist for trauma survivors. We
discuss the use of ritual abuse in cults, the prevalence of criminal activity such as pornography,
prostitution, and drug trafficking in abusive cults and the role of belief systems. We also discuss the
history of ritual abuse, the social status of cult leaders, abuse survivor resources, and the backlash against
survivors and therapists.
Tape MK 47 - Panel Discussion on Mind Control with Don Gilmour
Don Gilmour is the author of "I Swear By Apollo" a book documenting the CIA-funded mind control
experiments done at McGill University in Montreal by Dr. Ewen Cameron. We discuss the CBC's
television production "The Sleep Room" about Dr. Ewen Cameron and his experiments, the use of human
subjects for government experimentation, and ongoing abuses of psychiatry in general with overuse of
electoshock and drugs. We take questions from the listening audience about mind control, psychiatry,
electroshock, the mainstream media's lack of coverage on mind control and media's ridiculing of survivor
issues.
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Canadian Mind Control
Radio Series on CKLN-FM
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MCF is hosting the Program Transcripts
CKLN would like to make the show available to other radio stations.
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ckln@sac.ryerson.ca
Mind Control in Canada -- Press Release

Date: 97-03-15 09:58:43 EST
CKLN 88.1 FM [Toronto] radio series on Canadian involvement in U.S. CIA and military mind control
programs and the links to ritual abuse.
Interviews with survivors, therapists, researchers, and writers regarding unethical mind control
experiments carried out by Canada and the United States on Toronto radio station CKLN-FM 88.1
Sunday mornings at 9:30 AM.
On Sunday, March 16 at 9:30 AM the International Connections program will begin the radio series
'Mind Control In Canada.' Every Sunday morning 9:30-10:30 AM on CKLN-FM 88.1 for the following
eight months will focus on different issues of military and government use of mind control with a focus
on the Canadian involvement in the experimental programs including:
G The documented history of CIA/military mind control programs including the funding of projects
at Canadian institutes across the country (Including the Allen Memorial Institute in Montreal).

G The military and intelligence uses of mind control including using the child victims for sexual
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blackmail, message delivery, information stealing, coercion and assassination.

G The use of Multiple Personality Disorder for mind control programming and the links to the
MPD effects of ritual abuse, sexual abuse and severe trauma

G The public debate around recovered memories of abuse

G The nature of the mind control experiments from survivors' accounts
Interviews and Lectures Include:
Dr. Colin Ross -- proves that mind control has been used operationally since World War II in a lecture
of the history of U.S. CIA and military mind control experiment programs.
Lynne Moss-Sharman -- survivor of mind control experimentation and ritual abuse as a child by CIA-
funded doctors. Lynne describes electricity, drugging, brain implants, sexual abuse and other brutalities
that were committed on her and other children and adults in Canada and United States. Also Interview
Ronald Howard Cohen -- survivor of abduction and severe drugging by CIA and military and
subsequent harrassment in attempting to publish a book about his ordeal.
Valerie Wolf -- therapist of mind control survivors who gave testimony about mind control experiments
in the 1995 US Presidential hearings on radiation experiments. Also see Lecture Presentation at Believe
the Children Conference Chicago - April 1997 Interview with Valerie Wolf, M.S.W., therapist to trauma
and mind control survivors
Dr. Connie Kristiansen, Carleton University -- feminist psychologist talks about the backlash against
therapists working with abuse survivors.
Linda MacDonald -- survivor of Dr. Cameron's electroshock, drugging, forced sleep, and psychic
driving 'treatment' at McGill University in Montreal and has successfully pursued compensation from
the Canadian government.
Alex Constantine -- researcher, author of 'Psychic dictatorship in the USA' speaks about high-tech mind
control technology and the legacy of damaged survivors it has created.
For more information contact:
CKLN-FM Radio
380 Victoria Street
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
M5B 1W7
Phone: (416) 595-5068
Fax: (416) 595-0226
Email - producer Wayne Morris: ckln@sac.ryerson.ca

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CKLN-FM Mind Control Series -- Part 1
The CIA and Military Mind Control Research:
Building the Manchurian Candidate
A lecture by Dr. Colin Ross
Back to CKLN Series Table of Contents
CKLN-FM 88.1 Toronto - International Connection Mar 16, 23, 30, 1997
Wayne Morris:
Good morning, welcome to International Connection. It's a very special show this morning. This is the
beginning of a journey we are about to take on this programme. A journey into a gruesome world of
mind control experiments by government-financed doctors in Canada and the United States. Inhuman
experiments performed on humans, children for the most part. For the next 8 months on the show we
will be airing interviews with survivors of mind control experiments and ritual abuse, lectures and
interviews with therapists, researchers, and writers who are dealing with the legacy of mind control.
Specifically we'll be looking at the documented history of U.S. CIA and military mind control
experimental programs. Also the struggles of survivors to get compensation from the CIA and the
Canadian government in particular govt-funded mind control experiments at McGill University under
Dr. Ewen Cameron. We'll be hearing the accounts of survivors of horrific experiments involving
electroshock, drugs, brain implants, sensory deprivation, psychic driving, forced sleep, ritual and sexual
abuse. We'll also be discussing the military and intelligence uses of mind control including theft,
assassination, and sexual blackmail using child victims. We'll be talking about the uses of creating MPD
in people for mind control programming and its links to the MP effects of ritual abuse. We'll be
discussing with therapists to talk about the effects of severe trauma, sexual abuse, recovered memories
and the 'False Memory Syndrome'
Many people listening may be aware of Dr. Cameron's projects at the Allan Memorial Institute in
Montreal but this wasn't the only location. The experimental projects were carried out all across Canada
and of course in the United States.
The first segment of this radio series Mind Control in Canada features a lecture by Dr. Colin Ross to
colleagues about the history of the U.S. CIA and military mind control programs. Dr. Ross is a Canadian
psychiatrist specializing in MPD currently practicing in Texas. He has researched this subject for many
years and is currently writing a book about mind control. He has obtained thousands of CIA documents
through the Freedom of Information Act and through these documents, Dr. Ross is able to prove the US
government has been using MPD and Manchurian Candidates operationally since WWII.. and it doesn't
stop there.
This lecture is part one of three one-hour segments to kick off this radio series Mind Control in Canada
on 88.1 CKLN.
And now Dr. Colin Ross:
[Dr. Colin Ross, M.D.
The CIA and Military Mind Control Research: Building the Manchurian Candidate
Lecture given at 9th Annual Western Clinical Conference on Trauma and Dissociation, April 18, 1996,
Orange County, California]
I'm very very happy that you are all here. This is the first time that I have talked on this stuff in public,
and the problem was that Kevin made a little mistake on the schedule. He didn't get the title quite right.
This is actually a performance art piece. It's entitled: "Psychiatrist Trying to Stay Calm and Casual". But
before we go any further, by the way, there are a couple of messages here for people who are supposed
to call home: William C. Hollinger (if he's here) - he's supposed to call his lab in Pittsburgh. L. Wilson
Green, you're supposed to call your lab at Edgeware Arsenal. And Ewen Cameron, there's a message to
call Leonard in Montreal. So why is it I am talking about this, and what is it I am trying to say here?
Well, one explanation is no one has the faintest idea what I am talking about and I am here talking about
it because I am a little wacky. Hopefully by the end of the day, that won't be the conclusion. However,
that is a conclusion that unhappily is in print in various esteemed locations such as the British Journal of
Psychiatry, Esquire Magazine, and Richard's Ofshe's book, and a CBC film.
It's been a very curious experience to go through this little journey that Kevin just alluded to, which is
the same journey that we have all gone through if we have heard this from patients. It's starts off back in
the remote past, 1981-85, when I am a psychiatric resident. I mentioned yesterday that in four years of
medical school and four years of residency, I have had more multiple choice questions on Lesch-Nyhan
Syndrome, which just to remind you, as you all know, is an inherited deficiency of enzyme
hypoxanthine-guanine phosphoribosltransferase-I had more questions on that syndrome in my four years
of medical school and four years of psychiatric residency than on childhood sexual abuse, and more
teaching.
So then somewhere in the course of the residency I get up to speed on dissociative disorders and connect
them to childhood abuse and read up on the literature and get a little bit grounded, and the avalanche of
MPD cases starts for me in late 1985 into 1986, and I think I have kind of (a little bit) got what's going
on and some person comes in and starts telling me about their father was killed by the Mafia and they
were taken to a child prostitution brothel and then they were involved in satanic ritual stuff.
So I go "Gee", no books, no literature, nobody ever heard of it, nobody talks about it, totally in outer
space, no idea what to do, which way to turn. I go to the Eastern Regional Conference, go to Chicago,
find out a little bit, start getting a little bit grounded and the first couple of cases, my personal reaction is,
"Gawh!" - this sure sounds real, could be real, it's pretty scary. Wonder if I should let my kids out on
Halloween or not. And then the sort of basic experience is whatever percent of SRA is actually real, it is
clear that we got into some sort of hysteria wave in society in general, and in the profession, and a lot of
people went a bridge or two too far on their journey, and we had to reign ourselves back in.
So the time course now is, in my training, there is no sexual abuse at all. It doesn't exist. It's not relevant
because it doesn't exist. Then it goes to, well, it exists, but it's not really all that relevant and then there's
these sorts of outlaw gadfly sort of people who are into dissociative disorders who aren't accepted by the
mainstream. Then the dissociative disorders people from a foundation of reality that was hidden go off
into outer space on this-it wasn't alien abductions, but it was still outer space-on this ritual abuse stuff.
Then they sort of come back to earth and get a little bit grounded-and the next thing you know it's all
this government experiments, mind control stuff. So if you follow the pattern, what should be the case is
just another hysteria wave. And the more you look at it, the more it will just dissolve, and we will all
settle down and forget about it.
Well the pattern didn't work. Because when I systematically started looking into CIA military mind
control, the more I looked, the more solid reality there was there. And as you will see as we go through
these slides, and through this talk, it's a completely different deal from SRA. Somewhere out there in the
justice system, there may actually be objective evidence where somebody has actually busted a SRA
cult. If there is, that information is not generally publicly available to us. It is a fact that we have not
nailed down human ritual sacrifice cults in North America if they exist. So it's all conjecture.
Today I will prove to you, completely locked down, documented, proven, beyond dispute discussion that
intelligence agencies have been creating Manchurian candidates and MPD for operational use since the
Second World War. This is not a conspiracy theory. This is a fact.
Now that's very amazing because if you took an opinion poll of all the psychiatrists in the American
Psychiatric Association today-or you took the same poll five years ago -- 99.999% ... over 99% of the
psychiatrists would say "it's fiction, we know the movie is fiction, Frank Sinatra did a good job, but
there's just no way, it's absolutely impossible." (There might be two outlaw psychiatrists in the whole
group who would say that it's possible that Manchurian candidates are real.) This is a very, very strange
phenomena that actually in 1996 this is a completely documented fact-it's a very strange sociological
little development in the field of psychiatry. How could that be possible? Well I'm going to try and
explain how it's possible. So that's "what" I am going to talk about. Also I am going to talk about not just
creating Manchurian candidates, but the whole network of mind control doctors that is involved in this
and supports this-this kind of old boys' network that maintains all of this. And you will see a whole
bunch of slides with godzillian interconnections that I will go into in detail. And every one of those steps
- unless I otherwise specify - is completely documented. Absolutely objective in full.
So there is something real peculiar about the whole story. It's a very strange story. It tells us that there is
something going on in our culture and in the mental health field that is hidden and secret. This is another
kind of incest secret in the field of psychiatry that all of these people who have been running psychiatry
in the latter half of the 20th century are either directly or loosely connected to a whole huge universe of
covert hidden secretly funded mind control research, and as I emphasized, that's a fact.
Now why should we be talking about that at this conference? Well it's obvious. If in fact experimental
MPD has been created and has been tight and hard and real enough for operational use by intelligence
agencies for the last 50 years, then it is something of interest to the dissociative disorders field.
This is profound evidence in favour of the iatrogenic pathway to DID that I talked about this morning.
When I combine the expert witness experience that I have had at clinically created iatrogenic DID using
the techniques of destructive psychotherapy cults in the course of persuasion, as I described this
morning-when I take that expert witness evidence and see those cases created out of a base of no pre-
existing DID and then I go to this CIA military mind control literature, my only possible conclusion is
yes, you can create full tilt DID artificially from ground zero.
Also I have to conclude that you can create any degree of complexity, permutations of false memory that
you want. There is absolutely no limit on the quantity, complexity, reality, congruence, plausibility of
false memories that you can insert in somebody's mind-wittingly or unwittingly.
So-they didn't tell me that in medical school. This is a little sub paradigm revolution in the DID field.
There is a huge wealth of information, experimental information, clinical anecdotal information, and
operational street smarts knowledge of DID that's been up and running and full tilt in the mental health
field for 50 years now. This did not spring out of nowhere in 1980, and we are missing a ton of
experimental research data that's still classified that bears directly on this false memory debate that is
going on in our society now. And you will see some of the players in this whole scenario of interesting
people. (If we could put the slide projector on)
Every slide that I will show you is in your handout packet, so you don't have to take notes. Anybody
who is listening to the tape-there are also a few examples of the documents. If you want that
information, you can call me at Charter Hospital at 1-800-255-3312 and we can just mail that to you.
The first point is that there are a lot of documented declassified mind control research programs that are
completely objectively proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. I have a lot of this material and some I have
on order. This is CIA now. Bluebird and Artichoke were two programs that ran from 1951-53 and I will
read you some stuff from Artichoke in a minute. These were then rolled over into MKULTRA which ran
from 1953 to 1963 and then there are 149 sub-projects that you will see a listing of in a second. That was
then administratively rolled over into MKSEARCH which ran until 1973. Contiguously with that, and in
collaboration with Edgeware Arsenal, MKNAOMI which involved MKULTRA, ARTICHOKE and
BLUEBIRD type research done abroad and nationally ran from 1953 to 1970. This involves all kinds of
hallucinogens, hypnosis and so on that I will go into in detail. STARGATE just recently declassified E.S.
P., paranormal, remote viewing military uses of telekinesis type research that was done from an
uncertain start date up until 1984. Bill Gates, former Director of the CIA on ABC's Dateline in
December of 1995 said that it ran up until 1984. They had one of the academic contractors to
STARGATE on the show and they had the man whose job was CIA oversight of military
experimentation under STARGATE. So this really went on, they really used psychics operationally and
they believed in it enough to keep spending millions of dollars on it for several decades probably. Now
when you read all the Senate materials from the 1970's and you read all the existing literature, the claim
of the intelligence community was that all this mind control research was stopped in 1973 due to Senate
oversight and so on. One of the MKULTRA sub-projects is on the paranormal, esp and using esp for
covert operations purposes. That element of MKULTRA didn't stop in 1973. We now know from the
CIA itself that it ran on until 1984. So we know for a fact that at least that element of this mind control
research program that was said to have stopped in 1973, continued to 1984. My position is that it is
simply implausible that this stuff isn't ongoing up to the present.
You can see from this list (Projects Chatter, Often, Derbyhat, Third Chance, Chickwit, MKDelta and
QK Hilltop) that there was a large number of different programs in the 1950's, 60's and 70's ... all of
which have a just a little tidbit of information about them. Most of the actual documents and so on,
nobody has either reviewed or obtained through the Freedom of Information Act yet. So this is a huge
amount of, as yet still classified information.
Now we are going to give you a smattering run-through of the institutions that were sites for
MKULTRA research. In MKULTRA there were 149 different sub-projects and these were not in
obscure little corners of the world. This is the American Psychological Association, this is the Butler
Hospital Health Centre which is part of Harvard, Children's International Summer Village ... this is a
charming place ... this is a project involving a study of children at an international summer camp aged 11
and the study of how children who don't share a common language communicate and in the CIA report it
states that the investigator was unwitting of the fact that it was CIA funding and the purpose of the CIA
in these 11 year olds was that they might possibly identify promising young foreign nationals for future
use by the Agency. Columbia University, Cornell, Denver, Emory, Florida, George Washington,
Harvard. This will give you a feel for who is involved in this stuff. Houston, Illinois, Indiana
Universities, Johns Hopkins, Eli Lilly was the big supplier of LSD to the CIA. Those of you who can
remember the sixties might remember the "House of the Rising Sun" by the British rock group, The
Animals. They had a song called "The Girl Named Sandoz". Sandoz was the employer of Hoffman who
discovered LSD in the forties, and Sandoz was the original supplier of LSD to the CIA and the military
in the 1950's and they wanted a secure American supplier so they contracted with Eli Lilly to become
the developer. University of Minnesota, New Jersey Reformatory, Bordentown in Tennessee ... Ohio,
University of Pennsylvania, Penn State, Princeton, Stanford, a couple of universities in Texas,
Wisconsin, the Bureau of Narcotics, a prison, a narcotics farm. So these contracts ... McGill, NIH,
NIMH, National Philosophical Society ... everything and everybody gets in on the act a little. NRC. So
these were all of the major players in North American psychiatry and psychology who were receiving
this kind of funding.
Office of Naval Research ... which you are going to see multiple times on the slides. Worcester
Foundation for Experimental Biology ... all kinds of different agencies and groups. MKSEARCH was
the one that MKULTRA was rolled into. It ran from 1963 to 1973. Again Bureau of Narcotics, New
Jersey Neuropsychiatric which is also an MKULTRA site which I will talk about in more detail.
Vacaville State Prison which you are going to hear a whole bunch about.
Now BLUEBIRD and ARTICHOKE which were 1951-53 ... institutions there include the Bureau of
Narcotics, Cornell, Eli Lilly again, NIH, Public Health Service, University of Minnesota ... you get the
idea. Now what about the proven identity of some of the actual contractors? The terminology here is ...
we've got the contractor and we've got the sub-project number and I have most of the sub- contract files.
Security status ... TS means top secret cleared, UW means unwitting because this money was usually put
through a funding front and you will see a slide showing how that was all organized so a person could
get money through a CIA funding front and genuinely not know it was CIA money. They would just
think it was another Foundation. Most of the people you haven't heard of like James Hamilton, Harold
Abramson, Carl Pfeiffer, but you will hear more about them later today.
Some of these people might sound a little familiar ... Louis Jolyon West at UCLA, Ewen Cameron who
was at McGill, he's been written about a lot, and yes this is Carl Rogers of Rogerian psychotherapy
fame. He was actually a spook psychiatrist with top secret clearance who was on the Advisory Board of
one of the funding fronts and received funding for psychotherapeutic research on schizophrenia. It's a
very funny thing that Mr. Friendly Carl was in the network. Martin Orne, you will hear a lot about him.
These people were at University of Oklahoma. They were doing research on street gangs. Four of the
MKULTRA sub-projects were on children and all of the investigators for those were UW unwitting.
Martin Orne's top secret clearance status. Maitland Baldwin who did stuff on monkey brains. George
White was a CIA career officer who constructed safe houses in San Francisco and New York where
people were recruited in off the streets to have sex with prostitutes and were given LSD and other drugs
without their knowing it. The rationale for this was that they were attempting to study reaction of
unwitting subjects in civilian settings to mind control drugs. An alternative hypothesis to this was that
they were actually testing Manchurian candidate prostitute performance.
Harold Wolff was at Cornell. Raymond Prince I have corresponded with. He was UW unwitting. He did
research among the Aruba in Nigeria on their folk healing practices. R. Gordon Watson-I was a little bit
unhappy to see him on the list, but relieved to see he was unwitting because I read a book of his called
"SOMA: Divine Mushrooms of Immortality" ... a very interesting book on Fly Agrate which is the little
red toadstool with the white flakes on it. The use of that by circumpolar shamans has a very interesting
history. John Mulholland is actually a magician. When you go through these documents, all these names
are whited out. You have to piece it together from here and there. It's a great big story trying to track it
all down. Except they goofed it up. John Mulholland was not whited out once. When you get a file on
one of these sub-projects, there is usually a page in there that has standardized wording about no
individuals associated with this project are witting or so and so whose name is whited out has top secret
clearance and is aware of agency involvement.
There's somebody you have probably heard of. His name is B.F. Skinner. I am still doing some of the
archival research to find out what his sub-project number is, and what his security status is but I would
suspect it will turn out to be top secret. Just before we get to that slide, I am going to read you some
material, some of which is in your handout. As you can see, these slides are going to show you an awful
lot of connections between an awful lot of different things here. You get the gist ... there were a lot of
different sub-projects, a lot of different investigators all over mainstream academia.
Now I am going to jump to proving to you that MPD has been created by the CIA and the military since
WWII. The first stop off point is at the back of your series of handouts there. It's a publication called
"Science Digest, April 1971", the author is G.H. Estabrooks. The article is called "Hypnosis Comes of
Age". When you go to page 48, I am going to read this out loud for the benefit of people listening to this
on tape. He's now writing, in 1971, and says the following:
"One of the most fascinating but dangerous applications of hypnosis is its use in military
intelligence. This is a field with which I am familiar through formulating guidelines for
the techniques used by the United States in two world wars."
(Ross: For those of you who are not history buffs, that means at least back to 1914.)
"Communication in war is always a headache. Codes can be broken. A professional spy
may or may not stay bought. Your own man may have unquestionable loyalty but his
judgment is always open to question. The "hypnotic courier" on the other hand, provides a
unique solution.
I was involved in preparing many subjects for this work during World War II. One
successful case involved an Army Service Corps Captain whom we'll call George Smith.
Captain Smith had undergone months of training. He was an excellent subject but did not
realize it. I had removed from him, by post-hypnotic suggestion, all recollection of ever
having been hypnotized.
First I had the Service Corps call the captain to Washington and tell him they needed a
report on the mechanical equipment of Division X headquartered in Tokyo. Smith was
ordered to leave by jet next morning, pick up the report and return at once. These orders
were given him in the waking state. Consciously, that was all he knew, and it was the
story he gave his wife and friends. Then I put him under deep hypnosis, and gave him-
orally-a vital message to be delivered directly on his arrival in Japan to a certain colonel-
let's say his name was Brown-of military intelligence. Outside of myself, Colonel Brown
was the only person who could hypnotize Captain Smith. This is "locking".
(Ross: I have had patients talk to me about "locking".)
I performed it by saying to the hypnotized Captain: 'Until further orders from me, only
Colonel Brown and I can hypnotize you. We will use a signal phrase 'the moon is clear'.
Whenever you hear this phrase from Brown or myself you will pass instantly into deep
hypnosis.'
When Captain Smith re-awakened, he had no conscious memory of what happened in
trance. All that he was aware of was that he must head for Tokyo to pick up a division
report. On arrival there, Smith reported to Brown, who hypnotized him with the signal
phrase. Under hypnosis, Smith delivered my message and received one to bring back.
Awakened, he was given the division report and returned home by jet.
There I hypnotized him once more with the signal phrase, and he spieled off Brown's
answer that had been dutifully tucked away in his unconscious mind.
The system is virtually foolproof. As exemplified by this case, the information literally
was "locked" in Smith's unconscious for retrieval by the only two people who knew the
combination. The subject had no conscious memory of what happened, so couldn't spill
the beans. No one else could hypnotize him even if they might know the signal phrase.
Not all applications of hypnotism to military intelligence are as tidy as that. Perhaps you
have read 'The Three Faces of Eve'.
(Ross: Now here he makes a scholarly mistake because he's talking about Morton Prince's
"The Dissociation of a Personality" but he refers to the book "The Three Faces of Eve".)
The book was based on a case reported in 1905 by Dr. Morton Prince of Massachusetts
General Hospital and Harvard. He startled everyone in the field by announcing that he had
cured a woman named Beauchamp of a split personality problem. Using post-hypnotic
suggestion to submerge an incompatible, childlike facet of the patient, he'd been able to
make two other sides of Mrs. Beauchamp compatible, and lump them together in a single
cohesive personality.
Clinical hypnotists throughout the world jumped on the multiple personality bandwagon
as a fascinating frontier. By the 1920's, not only had they learned to apply post-hypnotic
suggestion to deal with this weird problem, but also had learned how to split certain
complex individuals
(Ross: a very interesting phrase)
into multiple personalities like Jeckyll-Hydes. The potential for military intelligence has
been nightmarish. During World War II, I worked this technique with a vulnerable Marine
lieutenant I'll call Jones. Under the watchful eye of Marine Intelligence, I split her
personality into Jones A and Jones B. Jones A, once a "normal" working Marine, became
entirely different. He talked communist doctrine and meant it. He was welcomed
enthusiastically by communist cells, was deliberately given a dishonorable discharge by
the Corps, which was in on the plot, (Ross: that's called "sheep-dipping", that's the
technical term for that) and became a card-carrying party member. The joker was Jones B,
the second personality, formerly apparent in the conscious Marine. Under hypnosis, this
Jones had been carefully coached by suggestion. Jones B was the deeper personality,
knew all the thoughts of Jones A, was a loyal American and was "imprinted" to say
nothing during conscious phases. All I had to do was hypnotize the whole man, get in
touch with Jones B, the loyal American, and I had a pipeline straight into the Communist
camp. It worked beautifully for months with this subject, but the technique backfired.
While there was no way for an enemy to expose Jones' dual personality, they suspected it,
and played the same trick on us later.
Now the only question becomes 'is Estabrooks some sort of kook'? Maybe he didn't really do this,
maybe he's grandiose, or delusional, or just bullshitting, or whatever. So let's take a look at who G.H.
Estabrooks is. How are we going to do that? We are going to talk to a JFK assassination researcher who
tells us that Estabrooks' personal papers are all at Colgate College in Hamilton in Upper State New York-
that there's a whole bunch of boxfulls of all his personal papers, his correspondence, his files, and so on.
So what we will do is send our secretary up there for five days to go through those 17 boxes which are
un-indexed, un-researched and unpublished in any form and then we will request a bunch of that
material to be photocopied and we will bring it back to our office in Richardson, Texas -- we will look at
it, and then we will talk about it in Orange County, California later on.
What we find is G.H. Estabrooks was born in Newfoundland in Canada-so he is already suspect because
he is Canadian. He is not really too dumb, he's a Rhodes Scholar. He ends up studying, I am pretty sure,
under Gardner Murphy at Harvard, takes a Ph.D. and spends really his entire adult professional career at
this obscure Colgate College in Upper State New York. So is he just an isolated kook, or is he connected
in any way? Well as I am going through all this military mind control research in the library, I am aware
that Martin Orne, who we will get to in a while, is one of the people I want to focus in on. And I notice
in one of Martin Orne's papers that he has referenced G.H. Estabrooks' 1942 textbook, which I have
read, where he describes creating Manchurian candidates for the military, so I know that Martin Orne is
aware of G.H. Estabrooks' claim to have created MPD. Can I establish any better connection than that?
Well lo and behold I find that G.H. Estabrooks edited a book to which Martin Orne contributed a
chapter. So now, Martin Orne is totally connected into the whole picture as you will see later, but if you
go to a couple of pages ahead of that material which I just read, you will see a letter from G.H.
Estabrooks dated August 22, 1961:
"Dear Martin, I am sending to thee a special delivery, one halo - pure gold, one pair of
wings which you can try on for size, and a credit card for use in the hereafter. Your article
is, of course, excellent. Upon receipt of your letter, I immediately called Mittendorff, and
he informed me before I could even broach the subject that they would of course grant
your request for reprints. Some day I am going to have myself examined and find out why
I do not consider these matters before I embarrass my friends.
By the way, I will be at the APA meetings on Friday and Saturday, September 1st and
2nd, then I will have to whip back here and head south. If at all possible, I will be up at
the Baltimore. If you and Ron (which is Ron Shore?) are anywhere in the vicinity, let us
sit down and yack at each other. I am not overlooking the fact that our meeting at
Cambridge with yourself and Ron sort of crystallized an idea in my mind.
I had a wonderful month's vacation in Canada - Toronto, Ottawa, Quebec City, Murray
Basin(?)sp, St. John, N.B., and home - and we particularly liked the French country. My
wife's native language is French, although she speaks Italian, English and German as well.
I find that with her along, the red carpet is literally rolled out and we see corners of the
back country where they would set the dogs on me if I happened to turn up alone.
Thank you tremendously. Hope to see you at the APA. My best regards to Ron."
So it seems these guys knew each other.
Now if you turn over to the next page, Colgate University Symposium on Hypnosis, April 1 and 2, 1960
in Hamilton, New York, opening address by G.H. Estabrooks, Chairman. The papers are E. R. Hilgard,
author of the NeoDissociation Book which is a foundation of the entire field here, member of the DSM
IV Dissociative Disorders Committee, Ron Shore, frequent co-author with Martin Orne, Gorton (I don't
know), C.M.R. Fisher, I have seen his name going through different stuff, Wolberg, I have seen his
name around, the behavioural guy I think, Martin Orne, G.H. Estabrooks, Oh who's that guy? Oh,
Milton Erickson? Yeah, I've heard of him. So ... this G.H. Estabrooks is not just some isolated kook. He
is a pretty connected in, well-known guy and all the luminaries in hypnosis in this part of the 20th
century know him personally, are corresponding with him on a friendly basis and are coming to
workshops he put on and publishing books he has edited. So much for the isolated kook theory. Well,
maybe he was just kind of bragging a bit, and he wasn't really connected to the military. Well. Bad news.
A couple of pages back, you see on stationery of the War Department, Office of the Secretary,
Washington, D.C., dated February 20, 1942 the name of George H. Estabrooks, Nature of Action,
Accepted Appointment. Expert Consultant to the Secretary of War without other compensation with the
payment of actual transportation expenses and not to exceed $10 per diem in lieu of subsistence and
other expenses. So he definitely had a Military Intelligence appointment in the Second World War. Turn
over the next page. Now we've got Navy Department, Naval Research Laboratory, Washington, D.C.
From the Director of Naval Research Laboratory to Professor G.H. Estabrooks via Inspector of Naval
Materials, Syracuse, New York. Subject: Information on Military Uses of Hypnosis; Request for:
enclosed three copies of receipt for classified matter and return addressed envelope. "The Naval
Research Laboratory has received a request for information regarding the possible military uses of
hypnosis. This request comes from a Naval Officer who is primarily interested in hypnosis as a possible
facilitator of training, but also wishes to know about any other uses which may have been tested.
Members of the Psychology Branch of this Laboratory have discussed the matter informally with several
psychologists versed in hypnosis, including Dr. Robert White of Harvard University. (Ross: which is
where Martin Orne did his residency.) Dr. White thought that you had done some experimental work on
a person during the war and requested that the Naval Research Laboratory communicate with you. If you
have done any work along this line, would you please let us know the purpose and results of your
investigations. We have been unable to find any mention of such a project in the Washington files of the
Armed Services, and so we must trouble you directly for information. Thank you for your consideration
at this enquiry." So we know that we've got very secret documents which are not readily available to the
usual classified Military personnel looking through their own filing system. So we know he's not an
isolated kook. We know he had a Military appointment. We know he's connected in with all the major
hypnotists and we know that he's claiming from 1943 through 1971 to have created Manchurian
candidates successfully for operational use during WWII. Is there any other correspondence that might
bear on the reality of his claims? Well, there's a whole bunch of correspondence back and forth spanning
the 1930's to the 1960's (that is, spanning four decades) between him and some guy called J. Edgar
Hoover. So you'll see on Federal Bureau of Investigation stationery, July 12, 1939: "Dear Dr.
Estabrooks: Permit me to acknowledge receipt of your letters of June 19th and 27th and July 6th, 1939. I
read with great interest the hypothesis which you put forward concerning the sinking of submarines. I
realize of course (Ross: and this was the Military use of hypnosis scheme for sinking submarines) that
you are only suggesting things that could conceivably happen upon the basis of your experiments and
the experiments of others and you are not suggesting that such a situation actually did occur in any of the
recent submarine disasters." 1962: "Dear Dr. Estabrooks: Your letter of February 27th with enclosures
has been received, and it was good of you to advise me of the Symposium you have scheduled. I
appreciate your inviting us to participate; however the pressure of official business will not permit me to
designate a representative to attend." Now, in between those two letters, there is massive correspondence
back and forth between J. Edgar Hoover and Estabrooks. There are visits of FBI personnel to
Estabrooks. There are many Military and FBI psychological warfare personnel attending various
workshops and symposia of Estabrooks, and there is overt discussion of offensive uses of hypnosis in
clandestine operations. So, from this, I conclude that probably G.H. Estabrooks actually did create MPD
in World War II and that an awful lot of people knew about it. Well maybe it was just G.H. Estabrooks
and that was the end of the story. We have to have some other body of evidence that indicates that this
continued beyond World War II. And this is material that is not in your packet, that's from Operation
Artichoke and Bluebird, CIA Mind Control research from 1951-53. I am going to read you some
Artichoke and Bluebird documents that were obtained through the Freedom of Information Act. A lot of
stuff is whited out, so I will just say blank whenever it is necessary to do so. To the Files. On 6th April,
1954, Tuesday, SI&H (Ross: I haven't figured out what SI is, H is hypnosis) Experimentation and
Research was carried on in Building 13 with the following subjects present: Mrs. __ , in addition to
Misses ______. ______ attended in a consultant capacity. (Ross: one of these Misses was age 19
according to the document). The session opened with slow induction for all hands, and then a
subsequent induction for Miss ____ to enable her to reconstruct a strange dream she had had the
previous week. This was successful, although in the wake state she could remember no details. The
major experiment of this evening was then conducted as follows. Miss ____ was taken to Room 23
under full hypnosis and she was instructed by the writer that she would find a secret document in or on
Mr. X at desk in his room. She was told that she was to conceal this document next to her person and
then she was to return to Room 21, Operations Room, pour herself a drink of water which she would
find on a bookcase, and then stretch out on the sofa, face down and go into a deep sleep. She was
instructed she would not awaken under any circumstances. She was told she would only awaken if
somebody whispered to her a specific code word and would recall nothing except sleeping on the couch.
Miss ____ performed the entire test in exact as detail outlined above and had no subsequent memory
whatsoever of any of this activity. During the experiment Miss ____ was taken to the same room and she
was told that a person whom she had never seen had taken a secret document from the Agency. She was
told that this person or suspected person had been given a drug and was unconscious on the sofa in
Room 21. She was told she was to enter the room and find the document which would probably be on
the person on the sofa. She was given specific instructions that she must locate the document. She was
told that if she found the document, she was to conceal it on her person and return to Room 23, sit in the
chair, and go at once into a deep sleep. She was further told that she would have no memory other than
falling asleep. Miss ____ complied in specific detail and immediately discovered the document in ____'s
sweater sleeve. Miss ____ concealed the document on her person, returned to Room 23 and at once went
into a deep sleep. Subsequently she was brought back into the Operations Room and she and _____ were
awakened. The experiment was carried off successfully, particularly by _______ with entire amnesia of
the work, and cannot even recall it under hypnosis. ____ however was able to remember a certain part,
though some of her details seemed vague." Here's another separate Artichoke document. "3. Agents
might be given cover stories under hypnosis and not only learn them faultlessly, but believe them. Every
detail could be made to sink in. The conviction and apparent sincerity with which an individual will
defend a false identity given as post-hypnotic suggestion is almost unbelievable. One's memory for
detail under such conditions appears to be boundless. Analogous Case #3. A CIA Security Office
employee was hypnotized and given a false identity. She defended it hotly, denying her true name and
rationalizing with conviction the possession of identity cards made out to her real self. Later, having had
the false identity erased by suggestion, she was asked if she had ever heard of the name she had been
defending as her own five minutes before. She thought and shook her head and said, 'That's a pseudo if I
ever heard one.' Apparently she had a true amnesia for the entire episode." "4. Hypnosis would make the
recruitment and handling of high level political action agents, in particular under ideal control.
Convictions could be reinforced, political courses suggested, appointments influenced, and with a really
good subject only the imagination and skill of the handling operator and the inherent limitations of
hypnosis as a technique would limit the possibilities. Double agents could be both discovered and used
with a much higher degree of assurance if hypnotic control sufficient to permit regression were
operative. They could be given suggestions which would have the force of true compulsions to tell if
approach was made, targets, briefing, true identity, etc. There is also the possibility that such persons
could be used under control much stronger than any we now possess." So that's experimental use. It's
clearly creation of Manchurian candidates, there is no question whatsoever. This is now in operational
use in the United States. This is not Manchurian candidates, but it's the use of sodium amytal and
hypnosis for the creation of amnesia barriers and deliberate insertion of false memories. "To Director of
Security Via Deputy Director of Security Via Chief Security Research Staff from _____. Subject: Report
of Artichoke Operations 20-23 January 1955. Between Thursday 20 January and Sunday 23 January
1955, the Security Office Artichoke Team conducted a special operations _____. In the opinion of Team
Members, in this case Officers of the _____, the Artichoke operation was successful. Details follow. It
should be noted at this point that because these operations were the first Artichoke Operations
undertaken in the USA, which is a violation of the CIA's Charter, the full names of those participating
are omitted from this report and will not be revealed without consent of the Security Office. First names,
titles, or pseudonyms will be used throughout this report. In view of the highly sensitive nature of the
Artichoke techniques and in view of the fact that this was the first Artichoke operation carried out in the
USA, the operation was conducted _______. This Safe House is far removed from surrounding
neighbours, it is a large tract of land, and is thoroughly isolated. A limited, and security-cleared
household staff maintain functions of the House and ____ by unwitting ______ Actual Artichoke
operations as usual were carried out in a special area on the second floor of the House, and neither the
household staff nor the _____ were permitted in the area during any of the processing. SSD Division
furnished one security officer during the entire period of the operation to act as special guard and to
handle any unusual situations which arose during the operation. This guard is hereinafter referred to as
____ in this report. For a matter of record, it should be noted that the subject was not a confinement
problem, and has been at all times fully cooperative. Guard detail was not present in connection with the
subject, except in a general sense. Technical matters in the case were handled entirely by the TBPSD
under the personal supervision of _____. Full tape recordings were made of the entire case, and tapes are
to be turned over to the participating Division in the immediate future. It should be noted that during this
particular operation, a special device was used in conjunction with the recording. This device, which is
easily concealable, worked with remarkable efficiency and at no time during the entire recording was
there any break due to technical failure. It should al so be noted that a complex two-way transmitting/
receiving unit was again used in this Artichoke operation. Cover for the actual operation followed
standard procedure. The subject was informed in general terms that before being sent for further work it
was necessary that certain tests be made on him physically and psychologically as well as his. Hence a
complete physical and psychological/psychiatric examination was acquired. Subject readily accepted
this medical cover and the Artichoke technique was introduced easily and with the full consent of the
subject. The Case: Prior to the commencement of the actual Artichoke operation, a number of
conferences had been held with the various participating personnel involved. All hands had been briefed
and procedures had been worked out. A general time schedule was prepared and operating instructions
for Artichoke were issued. On the afternoon of the 20th of January the subject and _______ They were
met by ________ of the interested Division. Under a covert car subject was taken to the _____, arriving
there at approximately 9:30 pm. Prior to this, that is during the day of 20th of January, the technical
equipment had been checked out and installed, and _____ had arrived at the covert area at approximately
8 pm for operational purposes. By previous arrangement the _____ was picked up by _____ at
approximately 9:30 pm. _____ was brought to the Safe House at 10:50 pm. Shortly after the arrival of
____, a preliminary conference began at approximately 11:10 pm with the subject.
Interrogation lasted until 12:25 am when all except the subject ____ left the Operations Room. Tape
recording was cut off at this time. As a result of this interview _____ stated that subject's mental and
physical condition was good and noted that the pulse (Ross: which is actually the blood pressure) at
12:25 am was 120/80 (Ross: so these guys are not total wizards). The doctor also commented he had
noticed an increased amount of talk after a drink of whiskey and although there was some nervousness
present, it was not excessive. _____ stated he had given subject two grams of anibarbitol to the subject
to assist him to sleep and it was later confirmed the subject had taken this prior to going to sleep. (Ross:
a half a paragraph is whited out.) Because of the successful penetration and because of the extremely
high quality of information which the subject was obtaining, the case is regarded as most sensitive and
important by the participating Division. Since the subject's information had be en checked and cross-
checked many times by the Operating Division's Case Officers, and the Division was of the uniform
opinion that the subject was fully legitimate and fully cooperating with our efforts; they however desired
Artichoke to give added assurance to the subject's story and to help them determine absolute suitability
for further use of the subject in his work. For the record, it should be noted that no polygraph techniques
had been applied in this case, since a physical examination by _____ apparently a cleared physician had
indicated too much nervousness for successful polygraph testing. Following established patterns using
medical cover as explained above, the ____ began a physical and psychological examination at 10 am on
the morning of Friday 21 January. This examination continued until l pm when an hour was taken for
lunch. At 2 pm _____ again continued the general examination of the subject with _____ being used, as
before lunch, as interpreter. This examination lasted until 3 pm when the ____ concluded the first
medical session and a portable polygraph was taken in by ____ for the purpose of polygraph testing.
(Ross: there's a bunch of blanked out stuff.) On Saturday 22 January 1955 subject had breakfast with
____. At 9:35 am ____ arrived at the Safe House and at 9:45 am ____ arrived. At 10:35 am the subject
again, with ____ acting as interpreter, was examined briefly by Dr. ______. At 10:50 am _____ left the
operations area and began polygraph testing. This examination lasted until 12:37 pm when it was
concluded. (Ross: then it goes on ... I'll skip a little bit.) Subject was taken into the Special Operations
Room with only the ____ present and at 2:36 pm the first intravenous infusion began. Slow injections
were continued until 2:46 pm when the ____ signaled that the subject was fully affected by the
chemicals and at this time special recording and transmitting equipment was brought into the Operations
Room. Also at this time ____ left the room and ____ entered. From this point until approximately 4:15
pm when the interrogations ended, Artichoke techniques were applied. These techniques, which
followed a previously agreed-upon plan, were in three stages: (Ross: this is now deliberate implantation
of false memories.) A. A fantasy which ______. Results during this phase were good and subject had no
control. Time approximately 15-20 minutes. B. A fantasy in which _____. Results were again very
good. Time approximately 40-45 minutes. C. Following development of the fantasies as noted above,
the subject was more or less directly interrogated by _____, and ____ introduced as _____. Results only
fair, although subject had little control. Time approximately 15 minutes. Immediately following the
conclusion of the Artichoke treatments, a general conference was held with all hands present. It was
agreed at this time that further Artichoke treatments were unnecessary, that results were as conclusive ..
that in view of the subject's importance, additional work with chemicals or with the H technique might
possibly antagonize the subject, hence would be unwarranted and unwise. Following the conclusion of
the general discussion all technical apparatus was removed from the premises, and all participating
personnel with the exception of _____ left the area after the ____ had checked the subject. On Sunday
23 January between approximately twelve noon and l:30 pm, the _____ returned to the Safe House and
again re-examined the physical and mental condition of the subject. At this time the subject reported he
had slept fairly well but he had a persistent headache. The _____ pointed out that the headache was a
natural consequence of the "examination" and it would gradually disappear. In addition the ____ wrote a
prescription which was to be picked up in another name for future use by the subject as a general
sedative. At 1:50 pm approximately _____ left the Safe House and the subject was turned over for
handling to Case Officers of his participating Division. CONCLUSIONS: In the opinion of the
Artichoke Team the operation was profitable and successful. In this case the subject was aware that he
had been given certain types of solutions but as to what he had been given or amounts given, he had no
knowledge. Checks were made by ___ and later ____ and apparently indicated that the subject, although
not having specific amnesia for the Artichoke treatment, nevertheless was completely confused and his
memory was vague and faulty. This vagueness and failure of memory was intensified by the _____
explanation that the subject had been dreaming an opinion which it appeared the subject shared in part."
Ross: So that's obviously operational use of sophisticated mind control amnesia inducing and false
memory implanting techniques in the USA in the 1950's by the CIA. It's part of a broad program of mind
control research, experimentation and operational use which included the creation of Manchurian
Candidates. So this is why I say that I conclude that it's an established fact that the CIA and the military
have been creating Manchurian Candidates for operational use since World War II at least into the
1950's, and that it's not plausible denial in my mind to claim that it all stopped in 1973. How did this
whole network get constructed, and how does it work and how is it supported? We are going to take
several steps beyond Oliver Stone in terms of level of conspiracy theory, but that's not the point of the
talk. The conspiracy theory is interesting to get into, but what I actually believe is that there isn't a
conspiracy. I think that the Intelligence Community itself is a polyfragmented entity with Dissociative
Identity Disorder, and that there is no single Executive Host Function. There is no little where
everybody has it all planned out and under control. That it works sort of as Neural Network with no
Executive Host Function, and that these Old Boys talk to these Old Boys who know this, who don't
know this, know that, it's this kind of Network Model and that's what you see on the slide. And all these
slides are going to look like this. I am going to walk you now through all these interconnections in this
Network as I said all of which are documented, and tell you about some of the history, and talk about
some of the ethical problems that arise. As a matter of general background now, this slide is called
"Funding Fronts for CIA Mind Control Research". MKULTRA, you have already seen, was from 1953
to 1963. The major funding fronts for MKULTRA were the Human Ecology Foundation that Carl
Rogers was on the Board of; the Josiah Macey Jr. Foundation, and the Geshickter Fund. Charles
Geshickter was one of the MKULTRA contractors himself. So what happened was the CIA would have
its budget who would pop money over to the Human Ecology Foundation ... HEF would put out a call
for grants and people would then submit applications. So it looks like a normal funding foundation, and
some people were unwitting and just thought they were applying for a grant, and other people knew
perfectly well there was a front, the technical terms for these kinds of funds was a "Cutout". HEF, Josiah
Macey Jr. and Geshickter were CIA cutouts. This Geshickter Fund was interesting. One of the
MKULTRA projects that they funded was the construction of the Gorman Annex at the George
Washington University Hospital in Washington, D.C. You have to remember that the military and the
CIA are federal bureaucracies. You anticipate the behaviour of federal bureaucracies in general when
you are looking into their history and operations. So what they did was through MKULTRA they funded
to Geshickter who then funded out to the contractor money to build the Gorman Annex as an addition to
the hospital. Since this was money coming from a private foundation, it generated matching funds from
another sector of the federal government. So the CIA got to double its budget by sucking its money out
of unwitting civilian areas of the federal purse. What was the Gorman Annex for? It was for mind
control experimentation on terminal cancer patients. Three career officers, CIA biochemists, were
employed at the Gorman Annex under full cover. This is not completely above board and ethical
behaviour. So Carl Rogers who is on the board of the Human Ecology Foundation is himself an
MKULTRA contractor and his specific projects have got this MKULTRA grant application ... I've got
him on the Board of the HEF, I've got the description of his project that was funded through
MKULTRA, and I've got the publication flowing from the project that exactly matches the grant
application, and in the published paper, he acknowledges funding from the Human Ecology Foundation.
So it's a completely documented closed loop.
Josiah Macey Jr. Foundation. Who was on the Board? An interesting fellow named Daniel X. Friedman.
Daniel X. Friedman was the Editor of the Archives of the Journal of Psychiatry from 1970 until his
death in 1993. The Archives of the Journal of Psychiatry is the most referenced psychiatric journal in the
world, by far. In other words, if you do citation index searches of references of published psychiatry
papers, that is it's an indexing of all the published papers in all the psychiatry journals in the world (the
number of references to articles published in the Journal of Psychiatry is 7x the number of the next
psychiatry journal in the world. So this "the" number one great big place to publish. It is very biomedical
reductionist and it's virtually impossible to get a dissociative paper published in there. So these people,
like Daniel Friedman, who are in network, are incredibly influential, powerful, controlling people in
terms of the history of psychiatry, what gets funded, what gets reviewed, what gets published, who gets
appointments, etc etc etc. It's all part of a very powerful tight structured network. MKULTRA connects
itself up to Allen Dulles which connects us back to Human Ecology over to Harold Wolff and back to
Allen Dulles. How does that work? Allen Dulles was the Director of the CIA from 1953 to 1961. He has
the longest-running tenure as DCIA-Director of Central Intelligency Agency. In World War II he was
employed by the OSS - Offices of Strategic Services - which is the pre-cursor of the CIA which was run
by a guy called Wild Bill Donovan. He was stationed in Switzerland and was heavily involved in,
obviously since the enemy was the Germans and the allies were the Russians, in the War he was
supposed to be working with the Russians against the Germans which he did. However, when you read
the history of the OSS in World War II, in the last years of the War, the Cold War was already being
deliberately planned out and set up by the Intelligence Agencies, and it was already apparent to the
Intelligence Agencies that things were going to flip - that Germany would become the Allies an d Russia
would become the enemy. There was an awful lot of jockeying about whether the Germans were going
to surrender in North Italy before the Russians got to Yugoslavia - so there were now negotiations with
the Germans - because if they agreed to surrender early - before the Russians got there - then there
would be such-and-such a payoff which would secure the area for the Allies so they wouldn't be taken
over by the Russians. There was all this jockeying going on, all this intrigue, communications between
the OSS and some of Hitler's generals. The arch-enemy spymaster, who Allen Dulles was fighting
against was Reinhard Gehlen who was head of German Intelligence in the Eastern Front, which means
Russia. At the end of World War II, Allen Dulles recruited Reinhard Gehlen to become the Head of that
Division of the CIA's operations against Russia. This is a totally established fact. Harold Wolff who was
the Head of the Human Ecology Foundation, was a neurologist at Cornell. When Allen Dulles' son
received a head wound in the Korean War, he was brought back to the USA and treated by Harold
Wolff. You start to get a feel for why I call this an Old Boys' Network. Let's come down here to
MKULTRA-we're over at hallucinogens. A lot of MKULTRA subprojects had to with funding LSD and
other hallucinogens. A person who did a lot of hallucinogen research and published a lot of hallucinogen
research was Daniel Friedman. Hallucinogen research also connects us down to Loretta Bender. Loretta
Bender is the much-revered author of "The Bender Gestalt". Now look at these three names: Loretta
Bender, Paul Hawk and Ewen Cameron. You will see that each of these names (they are all supposed to
connect to the American Journal of Psychiatry obituaries). Ewen Cameron, Paul Hawk and Loretta had
their obituaries in the American Journal of Psychiatry. So these are revered people, who are being
honoured posthumously by the flagship Journal of the American Psychiatric Association. It's actually
Stella Chess who writes the obituary for Loretta Bender, very glowing, what a wonderful contributor to
child psychiatry, what a pioneer ... well, sh e forgot to mention in the obituary - in a publication that I
have in my Loretta Bender file that I got from a medical school library - Loretta Bender describes giving
150 mcg per day to children ages 7-11 years for days, weeks, months and in some cases, even years in a
row. This would not get through an Ethics Committee. This is discussed at a CIA sponsored symposium
on LSD. Paul Hawk, anybody ever hear of a disorder called Borderline Personality Disorder? Hawk and
Pollett(sp) in 1949 Psychiatric Quarterly, Pseudo Neurotic Forms of Schizophrenia - these people are on
the borderline between neurosis and schizophrenia - we call it pseudoneurotic schizophrenia because
they are on the borderline. It's one of the reasons why the word "borderline" caught on.
Well he did hallucinogen research in New York for the military, and it had one unfortunate side effect -
he killed Harold Blauer(sp) a tennis pro, in 1953, with an injection of Army mescaline and the family
was eventually compensated for that. He's big-time connected into all the hallucinogen research by the
military, CIA, and he's at many different CIA-sponsored conferences. Ewen Cameron, former Head of
the Quebec Psychiatric Association, the Canadian Psychiatric Association, the American Psychiatric
Association, the World Psychiatric Association - in fact, the founder of the World Psychiatric
Association - and also one-time President of the Association for Biological Psychiatry. As politically
connected a guy as ever existed in the entire field of psychiatry in the 20th Century, with his obituary in
the American Journal of Psychiatry, funded through MKULTRA and Human Ecology Foundation, did
LSD and other hallucinogen research funded by Canadian military and the CIA and was successfully
sued (he had already died) - the CIA settled out of court actually - it wasn't a successful suit technically -
with eight of his patients who had been victims of experimentation that was first funded directly by the
CIA through the Human Ecology Foundation and then through the Canadian government. One of his
papers, published in the American Journal of Psychiatry is on Psychic Driving, another is on Production
of Differential Amnesia in Schizophrenia. I interviewed a woman named Linda McDonald, who is
identified in public, this is not a problem with violation of her confidentiality, and I have a release to talk
about her and write about her - she was 25 years old when she went to McGill to be treated for a
relatively mild post-partum depression. She turned 26 during her hospitalization from March to early
September, 1963. During the course of her hospitalization, she received 102 ECT treatments, using the
Paige-Russell technique, in which the button is pushed 6x per treatment, instead of 1x. She also received
about 80 days of barbiturate and neuroleptic induced sleep. During the course of her hospitalization -
now, I have not only her testimony I also have the actual medical record, with all of the nursing notes
documenting this and Ewen Cameron's signature in the chart. So this is not rumour or patient distortion
this is the actual record. And this is work that has been settled out of court by the CIA. She comes in a
normal, somewhat depressed person, who on my interview I would say she probably had DDNOS before
she was admitted - she gets regressed back to incontinent of urine, incontinent of feces, totally
disoriented, unable to state her own name, year, where she is, recognize her children, recognize her
husband. She gradually comes out of this. At the time of discharge she is sent home to live with her
husband and children, resume normal sexual relations with her husband - she doesn't know how to drive
a car, read, cook, use a toilet. Not only does she not know exactly what sex is all about, and she's not
exactly sure who her husband is, she doesn't know what the concept of a husband is. She
neuropsychologically pulls out of this over months, and several months down the road, she's at the point
where a full time homemaker has taught her how to scramble eggs. She was a fully competent housewife
and mother before this. When her children go out to play on the street, she is unable to remember 30
seconds later where they are, so she puts a map of the neighbourhood up on the wall and puts pins in the
map to keep track of where her kids are playing. Otherwise she goes into a panic and doesn't realize
what's going on. By about a year, she appears to have made a full neuropsychological recovery, and
when I interview her several years ago in Vancouver, she appears to be neuropsychologically intact and
to be suffering from no active psychiatric disorder. The problem is that she can't remember anything
from the time she left the hospital back to birth. So this is CIA and Canadian military research to totally
wipe out somebody's memory, which is very successful. In the published articles on psychic driving and
the creation of differential amnesia and schizophrenia, the claim is that if you have somebody who has
been delusional for the past five years, and you give them this "regressive ECT" and regress them down
to total infantile incontinence and bring them back up, and while you do that, you play a lot of tape loops
(looped statements) over and over and over, hundreds and hundreds of times a day ... they will come
back to their normal waking state, and they will have specific amnesia for the time during which they
have been delusional and for the delusional material and their schizophrenia will then be cured. So this
is very careful, deliberate research to produce specific amnesias, and total global amnesia. We would
certainly want to honour that man in the American Journal of Psychiatry. This is how the funding was
set up. Let's look at the network for both the creation of Manchurian Candidates and the denial of the
existence of Manchurian Candidates. How's that structured? You would think it might be logical to have
a disinformation program in place. Like any complex system, it's sort of arbitrary where you enter the
system. Let's enter at MKULTRA which we saw is connected to Bluebird and Artichoke - both of those
are connected to the CIA. The CIA is highly connected to the military intelligence structurally
(committees, cross-references, cooperation in many of these documented mind control research
projects). In the Senate Committee Hearings in the 1970's on MKULTRA, John Gittinger who was the
head Ph.D. psychologist in MKULTRA testified that the creation of Manchurian Candidates and the
movie, The Manchurian Candidate, which were referred to in his testimony, were just fiction, that's
ridiculous, and that had never been done. But we see that MKULTRA, on which he was the lead
psychologist, was actually an administrative rollover from Bluebird and Artichoke-we have just read
material in which they are explicitly describing clear creation of Manchurian Candidates so it's not
possible that he didn't know that. The options here are either he was so out of it that he didn't realize that
was Manchurian Candidates that were being created there, or he was somehow administratively out of
the loop and never even looked at the Bluebird and Artichoke documents which is fairly unbelievable, or
it is deliberate disinformation. Let's go from the CIA here over to military intelligence over to
Estabrooks. We've got Estabrooks actually creating Manchurian Candidates. So that's Manchurian
Candidate creation which goes back to Bluebird and Artichoke. We've got that loop already discussed.
Let's hop from CIA to Martin Orne. Well, we saw in the original list of MKULTRA consultants that
Martin Orne was funded through that, and had top-secret clearance. When you look at Martin Orne's C.
V.-he lists in his C.V. numerous military intelligence funding sources (virtually all branches of the
military) and he, in his publications, cites funding by Air Force, Army (I am pretty sure), Office of
Naval Research, and Human Ecology. A reliable source informed me that he also consulted with the
National Security Agency. He basically has consulted with all branches of the military intelligence and
civilian intelligence network. He also has taken the position, since at least 1984 in public, that MPD is
almost al ways an iatrogenic artifact . He has debated this vociferously at the APA annual from 1988 on,
and has published a large discussion and commentary on this in the International Journal of Clinical
Experimental Hypnosis. His basic position is that MPD is created by the therapist. Now why would
Martin Orne think this, and believe this, when he is totally connected into military intelligence? He is
one of the leading experts in hypnosis, he is a friend and correspondent of and has been edited by and he
references G.H. Estabrooks who was also one of the leading hypnosis experts at the same time, who was
also tightly tied into military intelligence-and Estabrooks knows those other people like Milton Erickson
and Hilgaard(sp) who are all totally interconnected by their common work and references. Well, Martin
Orne might believe that all the civilian DID cases are actually iatrogenic DID because that is the
universe he has grown up in. He can't step outside his own knowledge of the creation of Manchurian
Candidates by the military to conceive of the idea that it might arise naturalistically. So it is basically a
project, or lack of intellect. It can't be lack of intellect, because Martin Orne does not lack intellect. The
fact that he is too dumb to get it is totally implausible because he's a very bright guy, so that explanation
we can rule out. And the other explanation is deliberate disinformation. There is no way to discriminate
between those hypotheses or test them with the available data. So Martin Orne says that DID is
iatrogenic. Oh, what's this thing over here? FMSF - False Memory Syndrome Foundation. Well, isn't
this funny. Martin Orne is on the Scientific Advisory Board of the False Memory Syndrome Foundation
and the False Memory Syndrome Foundation clearly promotes the idea that DID is either almost entirely
or 100% entirely an iatrogenic artifact. Where does that take us down to? That takes us down to
Manchurian Candidate Denial. That is done specifically by Richard Ofshe, who is a Scientific Advisory
Board member of the False Memory Syndrome Foundation. In his book, "Making Monsters" where he
ridicules me as a CIA conspiracy nut who believes that the CIA has been creating MPD (which in fact is
a documented fact). Let's skip back to here. We're at the CIA and we're at MKULTRA, we're missing
another connection here. It should go MKULTRA to Joly West, but ... the CIA connects to Joly West
because he was funded under MKULTRA to study the psychobiology of dissociation. He will probably
go down in history as the only person to kill an elephant at Oklahoma City Zoo with LSD. Well, Joly
West is going to show up on a bunch of subsequent slides. What we're looking at is two-dimensional
slices of a three- or end dimensional space. So you are going to see Joly West connect out to here, and
off the screen, and up and down and around the back of the screen, and so on. One place that he
connects if from here to here. Now, where did Joly West start off in his professional career? He started
off as a Top Secret cleared guy for the Air Force who interviewed the American pilots who came back
from Korea having been captured and brainwashed by the Communist Chinese.
These were people who were real good Americans, who were flying jets who were shot down by the
Communist enemy who went to prison as POW's and came back as Communists. Have we ever heard of
anything like this before in our lives? This is the creation of a new identity and suppression of the old
identity and all its allegiances through mind control coercive persuasion techniques. These American
pilots were Manchurian Candidates of a sort, without full amnesia for the previous identity. So they
were kind of a DDNOS level Manchurian Candidate as opposed to a full level DID Manchurian
Candidate, and Jolyn West was one of the guys who interrogated them, understood them, wrote about
them, and wrote about how to arm future military personnel against such interrogation. Robert Lifton
also had Top Secret Clearance from the Air Force to interview these downed American pilots, and there
are several other people in the group there, including Margaret Singer, who wrote the book, "Cults in
Our Midst" which I talked about as the foundation of the iatrogenic pathway to DID. She had Top Secret
Clearance to interview these pilots as well. Margaret Singer publishes with Joly West, and Margaret
Singer publishes with Richard Ofshe, who is an expert on coercive mind control and cult persuasion
techniques. So that's real funny. Let's go from Military Intelligence over to False Memory Syndrome
Foundation. Who is that guy? Oh ... it says Paul McHugh(sp). Who is Paul McHugh? He is the guy who
is Chairman of Psychiatry at Johns Hopkins who says that 100% of cases of DID are iatrogenic and says
that all the DID Units should shut down, and he is on the Advisory Board of the FMSF. He connects to
DID as iatrogenic, he connects to Johns Hopkins as the Chairman of Psychiatry. He connects over to
Walter Reed Hospital because when he was in the military he did research connected to Walter Reed
Hospital that is listed in his c.v. which is a major site for military intelligence work, and is directly
connected into the mind control network. Now why do I have Johns Hopkins connected to MKULTRA?
Because a prior Chairman of Psychiatry at Johns Hopkins named James Whitehorn was on the Advisory
Board of the Human Ecology Foundation. He had Top Secret Clearance and was Witting. The Human
Ecology Foundation was actually a funding front for MKULTRA. So one of his immediate predecessors
was directly in network with Top Secret Clearance. The research in his c.v. - and I haven't actually got
the papers out and read it - that he did in the military doesn't look like mind control research. But then
the whole question becomes, what are the hypotheses that account for his behaviour? Here we have an
apparently relatively bright guy who is the Head of the Department at one of the leading medical schools
in the world, who just doesn't get it, he thinks that all DID is iatrogenic. Is this because he is not smart
enough? Doesn't seem to be a plausible explanation. Well, is it because of some sort of peculiarity of his
personal experience in his psychology that we don't know about? Maybe. Maybe it's disinformation. No
way to know, no way to prove it one way or another. But this is the network for the creation and the
denial of the creation of the Manchurian Candidate. It is a very funny little network. Let's take a look,
since we are all into FMSF here, let's take a look at the relations between the Cult Awareness Network
and the FMSF Scientific Advisory Board. This is going to start taking us out beyond Oliver Stone.
Oliver Stone would say, no this is too much, I am not making a movie about this. There's still hope that
we could land at the X-Files though.
CAN means the Cult Awareness Network, CIA means the Central Intelligence Agency, and FMSF
means the False Memory Syndrome Foundation. Joly West is on the Boards of CAN and FMSF and is
connected to the CIA. Margaret Singer is connected to Joly West and Richard Ofshe. Margaret Singer
and Joly West are on the Board of CAN and Richard Ofshe is on the Board of FMSF. Joly West and
Margaret Singer worked for Air Force Intelligence talking to those downed American pilots who were
actually DDNOS level Manchurian Candidates. Leo Ryan, and we're going to hear a bunch about
Jonestown in a minute, is the Congressman who was killed at the airport in Jonestown at the same time
as the mass suicide there, which was not actually a suicide. His daughter, Patricia Ryan, is very active in
CAN and recently received a Leo Ryan Award, so Leo Ryan connects to Jonestown, Jonestown connects
up to the CIA through that loop because CAN is interested in destructive cults and coercive persuasion,
and I am going to show you on subsequent slides the connections between Jonestown and the CIA.
Jonestown connects down to obviously expertise in cult coercive persuasion techniques. Jim Jones was a
big expert. That takes us back up to Joly West, Margaret Singer, Richard Ofshe, Air Force Intelligence,
the CIA. So all this interconnects here. Who is this guy Robert Heath? Well, we are going to see him in
a future slide too. My secretary has actually interviewed him, and I might go down and interview him
myself at Tulane in New Orleans. He did brain electro implant research for the CIA and he would put
brain electrodes in human brains for non-therapeutic purposes, and he would pour in psyllicibin(sp),
mescaline, LSD, and other chemicals to see what would go tingle-tingle in the electrodes. And I will tell
you more about that. He's funded by the CIA and the military. In one of his papers, he thanks Harold
Lief for referring in one of his brain electrode implant research subjects. Harold Lief is on the Advisory
Board of the FMSF, and in fact, was personal psychiatrist to the Freyd family. So all these guys know
each other. I'm just giving you kind of a sketch of how this thing is constructed. Now let's take a step
beyond Oliver Stone. This is the connections between Jonestown and the CIA. This is based on
references, I think they are on the next slide. The centre of the slide refers to talking about the CIA with
its interests in mind control. Now according to this book, "Was Jonestown a CIA Medical Experiment?"
by Michael Myers, according to him, Jonestown was a CIA medical experiment. It was a mind control
research site. So that seems preposterous and impossible to believe. What data and circumstantial
evidence add up to that conclusion? Well, we know that Leo Ryan was connected to the CIA. How do
we know that? Well, let's take a look over here in our package. Here we have a letter from the Deputy
Director of the CIA dated 18 October 1978. To Honorable Leo Ryan, House of Representatives,
Washington, D.C.: "Dear Mr. Ryan: Thank you for your letter of 27 September to Admiral Turner
requesting confirmation or denial of the fact that the CIA experiments using prisoners at the California
Medical Facility at Vacaville. MK Search Site Principal Investigator, James Hamilton. It is true that CIA
sponsored tests involving volunteer inmates was conducted at that facility. The project was completed in
1968. A report setting forth the details of that testing has been released to the authorities at Vacaville and
to the public. It is enclosed for your information and review ....... The research was related to learning
enhancement using a well known non-hallucinogen, magnesium pemaline (Ross: which is psiler [sp]
used for ADD). Your letter referred to Donald Defreeze known as Cinque and Clifford Jefferson, both of
whom were inmates at Vacaville. Insofar as our reports reflect the names of the participants, there is
nothing to indicate that either was in any way involved in the project. You may wish to cont act the
authorities at Vacaville for further information." So Leo Ryan was corresponding directly with the CIA
about some of its mind control research. He was also the father of pending legislation, by which all CIA
covert operations would be subject to direct Congressional oversight from a budgetary point of view.
{Ross: I haven't got Charles Manson connected in. You have to go a long way out there to get all these
connections. Is Charles Manson in Vacaville? Oh, I didn't know that's where he was. Okay, well I'm
going to tell you a bunch about Vacaville, so it's not surprising that he's at Vacaville.) So Leo Ryan is
really pestering the CIA to get all their covert operations under direct funding oversight and budgetary
control of Congress. He is bugging the CIA about their mind control research. He has found out that
Donald Defreeze was at Vacaville at the same time it was a research site, we are seeing another
document saying that is MKSearch and the investigator is James Hamilton, who had Top Secret
Clearance. Also Leo Ryan was involved in Jones town, because he was killed at the airport. Well that's
very funny. How does Leo Ryan connect down to Patty Hearst? Patty Hearst was captured by the
Symbionese Liberation Army, which was headed by Donald Defreeze whose code name was Cinque.
She was found guilty. She was actually a Manchurian Candidate, a DDNOS level Manchurian
Candidate, who was captured, if you don't remember the story, she was the daughter of William
Randolph Hearst who ran the San Francisco Chronicle who was running a whole lot of critical articles
about the People's Temple - Jim Jones' cult while it was still in Ukiah, California. His daughter, Patty
Hearst, who was a college student, was captured by the SLA at gunpoint with submachine guns, kept
locked in a closet for 42 days, and subjected to very systematic coercive, persuasive brainwashing and
mind control techniques, until she adopted a new identity named "Tanya" and lost all emotional
connectedness to her prior life and her parents. She participated in the robbing of a bank and was found
guilty. The Free Patty Hearst Movement was headed by Leo Ryan, who was very active in getting
clemency for her from the President. How does Patty Hearst connect to Donald Defreeze? Well, he
captured her. How does Donald Defreeze connect to Vacaville? Well he was at Vacaville as a prisoner.
What is Vacaville? Well, let's hop over here to Joly West. That will help us to figure it out. Joly West
was the expert witness in the trial for Patty Hearst. Who were the expert witnesses called to explain to
the jury that Patty Hearst was actually a victim of coercive persuasion, mind control and brainwashing ...
Joly West, Margaret Singer, Robert Lifton and Martin Orne. So what did Joly West have to do with
Vacaville? Joly West was Head of the UCLA Violence Project which was approved by Ronald Reagan
when he was Governor of California, then shut down by public protest. It was spearheaded by a number
of people including some people who were very interested in the history of CIA military mind control,
and have written books about it. Well the UCLA Violence Project you are going to see in subsequent
slides, but it included research and experimentation that was going to be done at Vacaville Prison where
they had the maxi-maxi which is the maximum security place for the most freaked out behaviourally
disturbed psychotic psychologically difficult inmates in the California prison system which included
Donald Defreeze and Charles Manson we hear. Who is Colston Westbrook? According to a book on the
Phoenix program which is the CIA's covert operation in the Vietnam War for killing 20 VC
infrastructure non-military personnel headed by William Colby, future Director of the CIA. According
to that book, Colston Westbrook was a CIA Psy-War expert in Vietnam who came back to the USA to
Vacaville Prison under cover of the Black Cultural Association and used behavioural modification
techniques on Donald Defreeze and gave him his code name Cinque, and devised the seven headed logo
of the Symbionese Liberation Army. Subsequent to this coercive persuasion work done on Donald
Defreeze by this Psy-War expert employed by the CIA in Vietnam. Donald Defreeze was transferred to
another location in the jail from which he very easily escaped the next day only to go capture Patty
Hearst and use very systematic and sophisticated mind control techniques on her despite the fact that he
was a functionally illiterate black person off the streets. It's a very expensive book, it costs over $100,
published by the Edwin Mellon Press, PO Box 450, Lewiston, N.Y. 14092 and then two paperbacks
which are published by Avon Books, both of which are owned by the Hearst Corporation: Douglas
Valentine, 1990, "The Phoenix Program", N.Y. Avon Books and the specific reference is p. 337. "Patty
Hearst: her own story", Avon Books, N.Y. pp. 133-34. This is from "Jonestown: A CIA Medical
Experiment". This is some general background now. There is this guy, James Frank, who won the 1925
Nobel Prize in Physics who came over to be part of the Manhattan Project which created the atomic
bomb. That is sort of the precursor of the Paperclip Project, which we will get to in future slides. He
recruited Lawrence Layton into the Manhattan Project so that's the connection between these people.
Now we're going to go to this Layton family. There's Hugo Phillip and Anita Lee Howbwood(sp)
married in Germany in 1914 and they moved to the USA. They had two daughters, Eva and Lisa. Eva
doesn't really fit into the story. Eva worked for the CIA at Berkeley. The author of this "Jonestown: A
CIA Medical Experiment" got all this information from the public records by just piecing it together, bit
by bit by bit, and the documentation in their references is pretty solid and convincing. Eva worked for
the CIA at Berkeley and her job at the library was to keep track of all the left-wing literature taken out of
the library and the names of the people who took those books out and report that to the CIA. Berkeley's
got a lot of top-notch people ... such as Richard Ofshe. Lisa married Lawrence Layton who was recruited
for the Manhattan Project by James Frank. He later worked at Dugway Proving Ground where radiation
experiments were done including release of radioactivity for wind dispersal over civilian populations.
He was an expert in dispersal of biological and chemical weapons. That Dugway Proving Ground was
also one o f the sites where Army LSD research was conducted. This couple had four children - Deborah
who married Phil Blaikie, Lawrence Jr., Annalisa and Thomas. These two are not so involved in the
picture. Lawrence Jr. was on-site at the People's Temple, Lisa was on-site at the People's Temple in
Jonestown in British Guyana, Deborah was on-site there and she was the chief financial officer for the
People's Temple operation. She left Jonestown shortly before the mass suicide and went back to
Georgetown, the capital of British Guyana, accompanied by the CIA Chief of Station for Georgetown.
Phil Blaikie was an interesting guy with international arms sales and British Intelligence background if I
remember right. This is where it really starts to get convincing and amazing. We have all heard about
Jonestown. We all know that Jim Jones had this group of people and he was in Ukiah, California and
then all of a sudden he moved to the middle of the jungle in British Guyana. I assume we all had the
same sort of experience I had. You just sort of take that at face value. Here's this nut. He moves down to
the middle of the jungle in British Guyana. But how did he ever choose this location? Who scouted it
out? What about the logistics of getting all the lumber, all the oil drums, all the everything down to the
middle of the jungle in British Guyana? You have to build an airport, you have to transport ... this is a
huge, huge project. Well, it turns out this wasn't just jungle before the People's Temple arrived. It was
the Shalom Project from 1973 to 1975 and Phil Blaikie oversaw the engineering development of the site
in its transition from the Shalom Project to the People's Temple. What was the Shalom Project? It was a
CIA operation for training black mercenary guerrillas for operations in Angola. This was a CIA training
site. This was not a random, unconnected site. That's just some general background. We're going to pick
up Jonestown as we walk along here through these crystal clear slides. Okay, we heard part of the story.
Here's J. Edgar Hoover, he's corresponded with Estabrooks who was creating Manchurian Candidates,
Patty Hearst is a Manchurian Candidate, her identity of Tanya is deliberately programmed in by Donald
Defreeze who is in Vacaville State Prison which was an MKSearch site which is also a site for the
UCLA Violence Project, Vacaville is a CIA research site, Patty Hearst is connected down to Joly West
who is her expert witness in her trial who says in effect she is a Manchurian Candidate, DDNOS level.
He's the expert witness for Jack Ruby who is connected to Lee Harvey Oswald. I went to one of the JFK
Assassination meetings in Dallas a couple of years ago where a guy presented a bunch of information
including a photocopy of a letter by J. Edgar Hoover dated 1960 expressing concern that Lee Harvey
Oswald had been doubled. The FBI was on top of Lee Harvey Oswald, was on top of him, and was
tracking him systemically well before the assassination. So that connect J. Edgar Hoover over to Lee
Harvey Oswald who is connected to Jack Ruby. How does Wounded Knee get in there? Wounded Knee
is an Indian uprising where the FBI were shooting up the Sioux Indians. Russell Means was heavily
involved in that. What does Russell Means have to do with Jonestown? Well, Jim Jones was a good PR
guy. When Patty Hearst was kidnapped he offered William Randolph Hearst a program to set up a
collection/donation of money to pay the ransom to the SLA. And the SLA was demanding something
like $170 million from Hearst for the release of Patty Hearst. Jim Jones offered to set up this fund, but
Hearst said no. The next outcome was that the SLA also wanted food donated to poor people that they
said they were representing in a revolution. So a committee was set up to do food distribution, financed
by William Randolph Hearst. According to this book, the way that food distribution was done was Jim
Jones got control of the mechanisms and he brought people down from the People's Temple down to be
the homeless and poor people who received the food and the same food was distributed around the
network six times, constantly being picked up by new People's Temple people, and taken back to the
distribution point. So actually only one-sixth as much food was purchased as it appeared, and the rest
was skimmed by the People's Temple. Russell Means was on the committee that oversaw this operation
and his wife was bailed out of jail in Oregon the year before at a cost of $19,000 by Jim Jones. (Russell
Means works for Walt Disney - comment from conference audience.) So this arrow here actually goes
over to Mickey Mouse ...
We did Vacaville, MKSearch, that's all connected into Patty Hearst, Donald Defreeze, we've got that
part ... MKULTRA connected to UCLA. What does MKULTRA have to do with that Sugi U2 base ...
that's the U2 spy plane. Well that's according to information from JFK assassination researchers that I
haven't independently confirmed, that was an MKULTRA site, Lee Harvey Oswald was stationed there.
U2 was the plane that Gary Powers went down in. It was a spy plane that over-flew the Soviet Union. It
was also used for surveillance of Martin Luther King ... that's an acknowledged fact. The FBI used U2
planes to keep track of him. According to a book which is a little shaky in terms of its documentation,
the people who were consulted on the mental state of Gary Powers, the pilot of the U2 that was downed
included Ewen Cameron who was an MKULTRA contractor who did the experimentation on Linda
McDonald who I told you about earlier. Ewen Cameron was also one of the people who went over and
interviewed the Nazi war criminals at Nuremburg to do mental statuses on them. So the FBI is in there
fairly tight. Let's just talk about MKULTRA, MKSearch assassination connections. This is now out and
beyond Oliver Stone, and we're going to pick up JFK, a little bit of Jonestown, a little bit of this and that
here. So we've got MKSearch, Carl Pfeiffer was a contractor for MKSearch and MKULTRA. One of the
sites he worked at is the New Jersey Reformatory at Bordentown which was in some of those
preliminary MKULTRA lists that I showed. In Walter Bowart's book, "Operation Mind Control", he
talks about Luis Castillo. Luis Castillo was arrested by the FBI, the Phillippines equivalent of the FBI,
on suspicion of being there to assassinate Marcos. In 300 pages of transcript of the interrogation of Luis
Castillo by the Phillipines FBI, that's in the possession of the JFK Assassination researcher who told me
where George Estabrooks' personal papers are, Luis Castillo describes very clearly (and this is also
described in Walter Bowart's book) having MPD. So here's a potential assassin of Marcos who describes
undocumented MPD who was at the New Jersey Reformatory at Bordentown at the same time it was an
MKSearch hallucinogen site and an MKULTRA hallucinogen site. We've got Lee Harvey Oswald who
was at Sugi Air Force Base which is apparently an MKULTRA research site who is connected to Jack
Ruby who is connected to Joly West who is an MKULTRA contractor who is the expert witness for
Patty Hearst whose Manchurian Candidate identity "Tanya" was created by Donald Defreeze from
Vacaville State Prison which was an MKSearch site which takes us back to the New Jersey Reformatory
at Bordentown. This is all just random coincidence, as I am sure you appreciate. How about JFK/CIA
mind control research connections? I might come back to Jonestown in more detail. I am just trying to
get through all these slides here. This is a very pretty little diagram with CIA at the hub and we've got a
wheel going all the way around. There is a game that I saw in the newspaper called "Who was in a
movie with Kevin Bacon?" and the purpose of the game ... you can name any Hollywood star and within
six steps you can get from that person to Kevin Bacon because this person was in a movie who was in a
movie with this person who was in a movie with Kevin Bacon. This is the same logic here. We can start
anywhere, we can connect Joly West to the CIA. Neale Birch is a CIA Office of Naval Research mind
control consultant in Houston. Robert Heath is a CIA and military funded brain electrode researcher at
Tulane. Well let's just go through this random assortment of individuals here. Robert Heath is doing
brain electrode implant and other research for the CIA in Tulane. He publishes a paper with Bernie
Saltzberg. Bernie Saltzberg publishes with Neale Birch who is funded by the CIA and the military.
Neale Birch publishes an edited book - contributor of a chapter in that book is Joly West who describes
the UCLA Violence Project in that book edited by Neale Birch. Joly West interviews Jack Ruby. Jack
Ruby shoots Lee Harvey Oswald. Okay well that's interesting. That's the end of the story. Except let's
run back around this way. Robert Heath publishes with Francisco Silva who is still alive and I am going
to try and interview him in Baton Rouge. Francisco Silva is a Cuban psychiatrist who left in the random
year of 1959 which is when Castro took over, to take up residence in Louisiana and publish with Robert
Heath who told my secretary that Francisco was a very wonderful person. In the Warren Commission
documents, there is uncorroborated testimony by Lee Harvey Oswald that in 1963, prior to the
assassination, he lived with Francisco Silva and was temporarily employed at the hospital where
Francisco Silva worked. I am just sort of playing mind games with you ... this is all just meaningless
coincidence. Project Paperclip and Mind Control Research - we heard about Allen Dulles already, he
was the Director of the CIA before George Bush was the Director of the CIA, which in turn was before
George Bush was the President. Allen Dulles is head of the CIA during MKULTRA program and
obviously was aware of it and oversaw it. The CIA goes down to this Reinhard Gehlen guy who is the
German spymaster who is recruited by Dulles to become our boy spying against the Russians, our
enemies who were previously were our friends. Reinhard Gehlen was in effect a Nazi War Criminal.
Reinhard Gehlen is in effect a Nazi War Criminal. Project Paperclip is a fully documented - one of a
group of projects including Project National Interest, Project 63, Bloodstone - there is a bunch of other
projects but Paperclip is the best known one. There are several books about it. Paperclip is a project set
up by CIA and military intelligence to bring Nazi war criminals into the USA through a mechanism that
routed them around the State Department. State Department rules were that if you were a Nazi war
criminal, you couldn't enter the USA. But there was a mad scramble at the end of World War II
involving the USA, Canada, France, Britain, German and Russian governments who were all scrambling
to get their hands on German scientists. There were all kinds of recruiting drives, etc. American teams
would actually go into the Russian sector and go to a place where German scientists were being held,
and sneak those guys out of there. It was quite an intense little party that was going on. In Project
Paperclip (this is totally documented) all types of scientists were brought over to the USA. Film experts,
ball bearing experts, lubricants, rockets, every aspect of science and technology of interest to the
military. This is included somewhat obscure people like Werner Von Braun. Werner Von Braun was
head of the rocket program. He was the guy who was in charge of the V2 rockets that were used to bomb
Britain that were created for Mittelwerk(sp) ... the labour for Mittelwerk was supplied from Camp Dora
(sp). When the American troops liberated Camp Dora they found 6000 corpses on the ground. It is
estimated that about 20,000 people were worked to death out of Camp Dora building the V2 rockets.
Werner von Braun is documented as being on site at the Mittelwerk at least 20 times, and being at
meetings of V2 oversight personnel where the use of prisoners being worked to death was discussed and
condoned, and the workers would sometimes attempt to sabotage the rockets by urinating a part or
tampering with the rocket. The typical response to that was that the entire work crew would be instantly
hung in their work tunnel. He was also a member of the S.S. and there is correspondence on US Space
Program stationery to a journalist where Werner von Braun admits he was an SS Officer. So he was a
Nazi war criminal who couldn't be brought in through a normal kind of visa process. Another person
who was brought in through Paperclip or another related project was Albertus Stroekhold(sp). Albertus
Stroekhold is regarded as the father of aviation medicine. There is a library named after him at Lakland
(sp) Air Force Base in San Antonio, Texas. He was honoured by the Daughters of the American
Revolution for his contributions to Aviation Medicine and the Texas State Legislature declared a one-
time state memorial day named after him in, I believe, the 1960's. Albertus Stroekhold was not a nice
person. People on his own administrative level, people who reported to him and people he reported to
were all tried and found guilty of war crimes at Nuremburg. He was not even interviewed by the U.S.
lawyers responsible for that sector of Nuremburg. The types of experiments that these people did
included things like putting people in a pressure chamber and dropping the pressure instantly to about
60,000 feet to simulate somebody being blown out of a cockpit if they were a U.S. pilot . What would
happen is they would cause their faces to have excruciating pain, they would actually die or almost die.
The ones who died would be taken out of the chamber, their heads would be cut open, their heads would
be submerged under water, their heads would then be sliced open to determine whether there was air
emboli in their cerebral arteries. Another type of experiment done by these people was an attempt to find
an antidote to seawater so that downed German pilots in the North Sea could drink seawater. So these
people were given forced feedings of seawater for days on end which then would be doctored with
various different substances to see if any of the substances would prevent any of the subjects from
dying. This is major full-scale Nazi war crime doctor stuff, and probably over 1000 of these scientists
were brought under Project Paperclip. Nazi war criminals were examined by a team of psychiatrists
including Ewen Cameron who did LSD and mescaline research and was an MKULTRA contractor. LSD
and mescaline research was also funded by MKULTRA and mescaline research was done by the Nazi
war criminals in the POW camps. So Ewen Cameron probably got the bright idea of doing LSD research
from the Nazi war criminals. According to this book which is not really rock solid in its documentation,
he was still in network up in the early 1960's when the U2 pilot went down. So that the only people who
are missing from this fully, completely documented history are the psychological warfare experts. It is
not plausible that the only kind of scientists out of the full range of expertise that were not brought over
were the psychological experts. A guy who was a deep-ops character in Vietnam described being out in
the field and coming across US and VC personnel who were all totally wasted on some sort of
hallucinogen trip. Their job was simply to extract these guys and leave the VC who were just completely
out of it on the ground. He told me which specific location in the USA would be the most likely place to
find some of these Paperclip psychological experts, so I am going to pursue that. Let's just take a look at
the brain electrode implant research. Now let's say it's just not believable that the CIA and the military
have been creating Manchurian Candidates-it's just too much like science fiction. Well, what do we
know for a fact that they have been doing? We know that they have been giving kids a few mcg. per kg.
big-time street doses of LSD days, weeks and months up to years in a row. We know that they have been
implanting non-therapeutic brain electrodes in children as young as 11 years old on an experimental
basis, and we know they have been wiping out people's entire personal histories with 100+ ECT
treatments and massive sleep inductions through drugs for no therapeutic reason whatsoever but we
don't think they would go as far as creating a Manchurian Candidate. So it doesn't add up. What we
know for an absolute documented fact is that they've gone way beyond monkeying around with some
amnesia barriers and new identities so what's the story on b rain electrode implant research? Here's a
name you might recognize. Brain electrode implant research was funded by the CIA and MKULTRA in
conjunction with the Office of Naval Research. There is a lot of joint funding of various projects by
Office of Naval Research and the CIA. The Office of Naval Research funded both Neale Birch and the
CIA. Neale Birch published that thing by Joly West. Joly West started the UCLA Violence Project
which was going to be at Vacaville which was where Donald Defreeze was. He recruited a brain
electrode implant psychiatrist who was part of a brain electrode team at Harvard, Frank Ervin, to be part
of the UCLA Violence Project. He denies in his chapter in the book edited by Neale Birch that there is
any intention to do brain electrode implant, but the available evidence suggests that actually in fact the
plan was to stick brain electrodes in some of these prisoners at Vacaville and the concept was that you
would use this for tracking of their whereabouts and if they were off their circuit locations or there was a
certain kind of discharge from their brain, you could then transmit a signal to them to arrest their
behaviour so that they could be picked up by the police. He is also funded by Army Intelligence. Army
Intelligence funded Neale Birch. Army Intelligence funded Robert Heath at Tulane who did brain
electrode implant research. We saw him on the previous page. The Office of Naval Research funded
Jose Delgado at Yale who did brain electrode implant research. This is the guy to whom Harold Lief
sent a patient. His experiments include sticking electrodes in brains, as I mentioned, and then pouring in
different kinds of hallucinogens in order to see the effect on perception and behaviour and electrical
activity in their brain. This guy, Jose Delgado, who is tightly in network, who is famous for a videotape
of a bull charging at him then he pushes the transmitter box which sends a signal to the electrodes
implanted in the bull's brain, and the bull turns away. He also has a series of papers which are in my Jose
Delgado file where he does this kind of research on cats and he refers to the cats in which he has
implanted brain electrodes that he is control ling by transmitter as "mechanical toys". By loose
association, this reminds me of a book called "Man the Mechanical Misfit" written by George H.
Estabrooks. He also describes a technical innovation in an 11 year old boy who had brain electrodes
implanted for non therapeutic reasons. Previously you had to have wires connecting the transmitter box
directly to the electrode terminals that were sticking through the skull. In this 11 year old boy, however,
Jose Delgado had figured out how to have a remote transmitter without a direct wire connection. He
describes pushing a button in this otherwise normal 11 year old boy's brain transmitter box and the boy
starts being confused about his identity, wondering whether he is a girl and talking about wanting to
marry Jose Delgado. He pushes another button, and this behaviour stops. Another Delgado experiment is
a 16 year old girl who looks maybe like a mild borderline, pre-morbidly, involves sticking these brain
electrodes in and there is actually pictures in the paper that you can photocopy when you go to the
medical school library, it's in a journal on the shelf-where in one picture she's got this vacant stupid grin
on her face, push another button on the panel box and she is pounding the panel on the wall. So they are
showing actual photographs of markedly different behavioural states-totally controlled by remote
transmitter and brain electrode implants. But these guys wouldn't be using hypnosis to create
Manchurian Candidates ...
Let's look at temporal lobe epilepsy and military mind control research for a minute. Let's try and think
about the history of MPD. What are some of the bogus reasons that MPD is not real? One of the big
arguments is that it is really temporal lobe epilepsy. We know that temporal lobe epilepsy has been used
as one of the arms of Manchurian Candidate denial. Here we have how that little network works. We've
got Robert Heath who is doing non- therapeutic brain electrode implants plus brain electrode implants
on temporal lobe epilepsy subjects. That's all funded by military intelligence and the CIA. We've got
temporal lobe epilepsy as a phenomena. Frank Irvin (who was recruited by Joly West for the UCLA
Violence Project) and Mark Sweet write a book called "Violence and the Brain" in which they describe
doing brain electrode implants with people with temporal lobe epilepsy. One of their subjects had a very
unusual form of temporal lobe epilepsy. He was driving a truck in Los Angeles and came to in Phoenix.
So actually these people were doing brain electrode implants on multiples. Well, they could be
alcoholics, but the description (remember this guy drove a tuck from LA to Phoenix, that's a little bit
much for an alcoholic blackout) -- some of the other case histories clearly sound dissociative in nature.
But they are calling them temporal lobe epilepsy just like Joly West said Jack Ruby had temporal lobe
epilepsy. There is this misinformation in the literature that DID is actually due to temporal lobe epilepsy
and there are nine authors in a series of papers in the early to mid-1980's pumping this DID is really
temporal lobe epilepsy line. This shows you how this research works because I haven't done this but the
hypothesis is now that these nine authors are somehow going to be in network. So the odds are that the
nine authors who published these papers saying that DID is just temporal lobe epilepsy are going to be
in network in this mind control old boy network somehow. I just haven't researched that up. Borderline
personality disorder where multiples are really just borderline is another back-up strategy, and how does
borderline personality disorder tie up with military mind control research? Well, DID is iatrogenic, they
are really just borderlines. Martin Orne says that, Richard Ofshe says that, Martin Orne worked for
MKULTRA which is connected to MKNaomi, MKNaomi was also conducted at Edgeware Arsenal
where Amadeo Morazzi worked who did LSD research for the Air Force in Minnesota funded by Air
Force Intelligence. Robert Heath also did Air Force research. LSD research was done by Nazi scientists
and war criminals. Nazi scientists and war criminals were imported into Edgeware Arsenal frequently,
and one of the people that I researched was Wagner Joreg, who is apparently the son of the Wagner Joreg
(sp) who won the Nobel Prize for treating syphillis with malaria. I haven't researched that up fully but he
came up to Edgeware Arsenal and I have him documented as being a German University Professor in
the 1930's and 1940's showing up at Edgeware Arsenal and publishing research on antidotes to chemical
warfare weapons and saying that he regrets the extremely long period of time in which it was impossible
to publish his research data. So he did this research at Edgeware Arsenal which overlaps with the time
that Amadeo Morazzi was there who did LSD research at the University of Minnesota. Another person
who did LSD research is Paul Hawk who worked for the CIA, and is one of the inventors of the term
"borderline personality disorder". So this is a little bit hokey this one. But it just shows you - the theme
here is not that there is a military intelligence conspiracy to cover up Manchurian Candidate creation
with the myth of borderline personality disorder. The point now is a more of a global general metapoint
which is this whole network of old boys in psychiatry and psychology who were covertly funded for part
of the military and CIA intelligence mind control network are very influential in the history of
psychiatry in a kind of nebulous fashion that just permeates the whole field. It isn't part of the sort of one-
to-one correspondences that I have been showing before. It's a matter of the whole mindset of psychiatry
- how we think about borderlines, how we think about temporal lobe epilepsy, what are we going to
react to MPD like? Well we are going to react to MP D like - it' a little bit more vague, a little bit more
global, it's a little bit more general - but the point is that the history of psychiatry in the second half of
the twentieth century is undoubtedly been strongly skewed-not by an agenda that has to do with
academic research, not by the best interest of clients, not by ethical psychiatry, but by an Intelligence
agenda. My beef is not with the intelligence community or the CIA. It's with the psychiatrists and the
psychologists who created a little loophole where they can step out of normal ethical oversight, violate
the Hippocratic Oath, get away with it, not talk about it, and just like the conspiracy to keep incest under
the carpet, this is all conspired and kept under the carpet - not by twelve guys in a room at Langley who
are doing the planning, but just by this pervasive old boys network that's keeping the mind control secret
down just like it kept the incest secret down. So that's another reason why this is important, and needs to
be uncovered. That's the end of the slides. Now I am going to come back to Jonestown a little bit, and
fill you in on Jonestown and then I see I am way ahead of schedule which is fine because I have got a lot
more to tell you, and you can ask a whole bunch of questions, and we can have a discussion. According
to this Jonestown book - remember that there's a connection between Patty Hearst's being kidnapped by
Donald Defreeze who is mind controlled by Colston Westbrook who is a CIA psy-war expert and then
there is the food relief program for the ransom by Jim Jones who is being hassled by William Randolph
Hearst newspaper that ties into Russell Means being on the Board. Well according to a person who
survived the White Night at Jonestown, Patty Hearst's boyfriend, Steven Weed, was onsite at the
People's Temple at Ukiah, California and observed talking to Jim Jones three months before the
kidnapping. If that is true, then that just blows the coincidence conspiracy theory out of the water. It is
too much not to be all connected up. According to the book there is pretty solid documentation to prove
that Jim Jones was recruited by the CIA way back in the 1950's and he was a coercive persuasion
brainwashing expert who had some Churches in Cincinatti then moved out to California. He specialize
in coercive persuasion on Blacks and Native Americans, almost all of the people at Jonestown were not
white except for the elite who survived and he was on-site at two South American countries - I think
Brazil and British Guyana as a CIA undercover operative doing typical CIA operations as part of
government overthrow both by stirring up left wing factions, stirring up labour, distributing leaflets and
so on. So he was actually part of standard CIA operations going way back to the 1950's. The evidence in
favour of it actually being a drug experiment is pretty weak. He says there was Drug A, Drug B and
placebo and the point of the experiment was do either of the active drugs enhance the voluntary
completed suicide rate of the brainwashed subjects. But he doesn't really provide any documentation to
support that. He just sort of pulls that out of nowhere. So that's not very plausible. Also he talks about
MKULTRA in a non-scholarly way because MKULTRA had already stopped. So it wasn't technically
an MKULTRA operation. There's a lot of elaborate detail in the book. For instance Jim Jones visited
Castro. There are a lot of connections between the CIA being the site for Jonestown in British Guyana
before they went there and all kinds of visiting back and forth from CIA stations in the capital of Guyana
to the people staying at the Temple. Like I said, one of those daughters in the Layton family was
escorted out of Jonestown just before White Night by the CIA station chief. It just builds up like that.
There are dozens and dozens and dozens of these kind of documented pieces of information. There is a
whole bunch of stuff about people who were assassinated by the People's Temple and a bunch of
numerological and letter type codes about how these people were selected and how their last names
mirrored the method by which they were killed. There is this whole kind of vast detail which leaves me
with the next conclusion that it is beyond coincidence. Whether it is actually a medical experiment is not
clearly established, except the most compelling fact is the method of delivery of the drugs. Every night
every member of the Jonestown commune had to go to the kitchen and eat one cookie in front of
personnel. And he says the cookie is where the drugs were delivered. I would say the next conclusion is
probably more than 50/50% likely that there was some sort of heavy CIA involvement in Jonestown,
whether or not it was a drug experiment. In terms of how many people actually committed suicide,
according to this book, only a minority of people committed suicide, many were shot or injected with
cyanide. Only a minority actually drank it voluntarily. And when you look at the configuration of bodies
on the ground, these are not people who just drank, died and fell on the ground-they are all lined up in
orderly rows. There's a whole deal of how one of the Layton family members-her identity was switched
with one of the other members who had lung cancer and she was actually escorted off the grounds on the
grounds of having lung cancer. But there was somebody else who had lung cancer, and there is
substitution of bodies, there is a claim that the guy who was identified as being Jim Jones was not
actually Jim Jones. So you have to read the book to get the whole wealth of detail. I would say it is fairly
compelling and persuasive. Which takes us back into how come all these guys who are connected into
network tend to be experts in mind control, brainwashing, coercive persuasion, destructive cults? And
why is it that destructive cults appear to specialize in creating Manchurian Candidates? You just keep
going round and round this network and the more you research into it- and this is only part way along
the journey-if you actually had a team of ten researchers-you would end up with fifty of these slides with
every (some of it speculative) but every connection fully documented on fifty slides. Another curious
twist on this story is the history of LSD. One of the things that goes on is there is always information
and disinformation. One of the strategies for disinformation is called a limited hang-out is when you let
out a little bit of the truth, then you go, "oh see we 'fessed up!" But actually you only let out 3% and the
purpose of the limited hang-out is to cover up the rest. There's always a limited hang-out going on.
Every time a bunch of stuff is declassified that's only the tip of the iceberg. If we take a look at the
history of LSD, something that was not taught to me when I was a psychiatry resident is who are the
original acid-heads? Could it have been, like, maybe, beatniks? Maybe Allen Ginsburg. Could have been
Ken Kesey, maybe. No the original acid-heads in North America were the leading figures in psychiatry.
The people who imported LSD into North America were the CIA and the military. It didn't get here
through street or drug dealer routes. It got here through official military CIA mind control mechanisms.
The CIA at one time actually considered buying up the world supply of LSD from Sandoz. Like I said
their alternative back-up was to contract with Elli Lily to provide a secure supply of LSD. These guys
were on acid-trips in the first half of the 1950's. People who first got turned on to LSD as subjects in
military experiments included Gregory Bateson, Allen Ginsburg, Ken Kesey, probably Timothy Leary.
Gregory Bateson was married to Margaret Mead who was funded in her anthropological work by the
CIA. There is a whole other dimension of this which is funding-this is a fact.
In...another story about anthropology ... a little glimpse of which we capture from Raymond Prince who
was funded under MKULTRA to go study the Yoruba. This is called "Study of Mind Control
Techniques by Witch Doctors Around the World". Now, Raymond Prince's hypothesis is that actually it
is just a way to go undercover in a foreign country and get better information about the culture and
establish contact with possible agents and recruits. But the CIA - as part of its proper operations in the
Cold War - has had to gather a tremendous amount of data on the stability of various societies and
countries which are likely to tip over to Communism which involves sociology, economics, military
analysis and anthropology ... anthropology, languages, and linguistics are all part of the operation. All
these people who were the original acid-heads are the psychiatrists, and the psychiatrists, when you read
the LSD sponsored symposia-the guy who is the archivist for the American College of Psychiatrists,
Sydney Mallett (sp) whom I plan to contact-the American College of Psychiatrists is this old boys club
in American Psychiatry that I got into because I got a fellowship from them as a resident -- (to audience:
"No, I don't think it was CIA funded ... unless Meade Johnson was functioning as a cutout ... the money
supposedly came from Meade Johnson"). That's the way the network works ... it's a joke ... but you
never know ... so the guy who is the archivist-historian in one of these CIA symposia in the early 1960's
talks about how he was turned on to LSD by Paul Hawk who was responsible for the term "borderline
personality disorder" and killed the tennis pro with mescaline. All these guys are writing and talking
about LSD as "the hot thing" in psychotherapy. They are totally on board with it, and usually they are
talking about sub hallucinogenic doses ... like 60 mg, 75 mg as loosening up the ego and causing these
amazing treatment responses, like curing long-term alcoholism in a single LSD psychotherapy session.
They are all getting funded by it, they are getting perked by it, they are going for trips, they are meeting
their buddies, they are going to conferences, they are getting published, they are getting books edited-it's
all just part of the whole program. Nobody in psychiatry is saying "bad stuff, dangerous stuff, street
drug, protect the youth of America"-they are not talking like that.
All of a sudden, boom, it's a narcotic and it's outlawed by FDA. What is the initial response of all these
grey-haired fathers of psychiatry to making LSD an illegal substance? Protest, it's a bad thing, it's
robbing us of a powerful psychotherapeutic agent, it's crippling our research efforts. These guys were
hung out to dry. They were used by Intelligence Agencies to gather therapeutic use of LSD,
interrogation use of LSD, psychotomenitic (sp) use of LSD and then when they had done their job, LSD
was just canceled from academia. It was made illegal, and then a whole disinformation campaign went
along with that whereby LSD was transformed from this wonderful therapeutic agent whose use was
advocated by the major leading figures in psychiatry into this horrible thing that made children jump out
of windows and bust up their chromosomes. It's called a "disinformation campaign". And it caught the
leaders of psychiatry totally by surprise, which is hard to believe since psychiatrists are such clever
political strategists in general. What about this whole creating Manchurian Candidate stuff which we see
now for a fact has been going on since WWII? And according to Estabrooks, even back to WWI? We
now have established for a proven fact that was going on during WWII, and the CIA was working on it
in Artichoke and Bluebird from 1951-53. The Korean War only started in 1950. The disinformation was
that our boys went overseas there, they got shot down, they got captured, the Communist Chinese
worked on them with these strange techniques we don't understand. The person who coined the term
"brainwashing" in a book was Edwin Hunter. He's a career CIA officer. This was a term coined by the
CIA to explain what was happening to our boys in North Korea who were making bold statements about
germ warfare activities they had been involved in. Now it could be that part of the Communist
brainwashing strategy was to talk to these guys about the ethical improprieties of biological warfare and
bombing they actually had been doing in North Korea. In any rate, they come home as Manchurian
Candidates. We are all bent out of shape because our boys are talking Communism, so we say that we
have got to start studying this reactively and defensively because of what the Commies are doing. That
is the disinformation myth that has been adhered to by the Military Intelligence community steadfastly
from the Korean War to the present. It's totally bullshit. It's disinformation. It's not a fact. It's a made up
story to cover up the fact that actually we had operational offensive use of this psychological warfare
technology already in place in WWII. We have a major disinformation campaign which has basically
fooled mental health professions and the general public concerning brainwashing, concerning LSD.
Fortunately those are the only two examples in human history. This analysis does not apply to the False
Memory movement. There is no way it could conceivably be possible, you will all agree, that there
could be any nervousness in the Intelligence Community about Manchurian Candidates spilling out into
civilian psychotherapies and that a disinformation program based on False Memories would be required.
It is obviously absurd. Nobody but a CIA conspiracy nut would ever suggest that. I guarantee you that
that thought has never even crossed my mind until it just spontaneously appeared at this moment. So you
see, actually, in fact, the idea that there could be a deliberate disinformation campaign element to the
False Memory movement is perfectly plausible, consistent with history, and could be expected. There is
bound to be some sort of disinformation strategy if in fact Manchurian Candidates have been leaking out
into civilian psychotherapy. So here we have, with all of this documentation, all of this proof ... we
know that it is perfectly possible that people we are seeing in therapy who are claiming to be victims of
systematic military mind control experimentation are telling us about what actually happened to them.
However, I am not a single step further ahead than I was four years ago on actually documenting that
any single patient in treatment actually in fact was involved in these mind control experiments. There is
no linkage at all from the current patients in treatment to this documentation. So whether we are ever
going to get that or not, I don't know. (From audience: Mind Control and the Military can be found on
America On-Line on the Internet - "On Psych"-and there are websites). Apparently there is a lot of
information about this on the web and on Internet and AOl and elsewhere. But the problem is, I don't go
to chat rooms very often, but most of it is totally banal, and silly and boring and a waste of time. So
when you go into the stuff on mind control, how much is garbage that you are going to get, and how
much is solid stuff that you can pursue and document are you going to get is my question. I have no idea
what the answer is. But, as we all know, the truth is out there. (From the audience: "how would I go
about documenting that a patient I, or somebody else, currently has in treatment, in fact was involved in
that kind of experimentation?") Well, here's how the documentation has gone so far. By the way, I have
done Freedom of Information Act requests on MONARCH at all Intelligence Agencies, and they have
all denied it exists. The patient apparently has no source of contamination for specific MONARCH
memories, but has the word Monarch in her mind, and has very specific detailed Monarch-type mind
control memories. Her father basically abused her domestically and ritualistically, and then took her
over to the mind control people. How she got there, what the transport mechanism was .. plane, car,
location is all vague because she appears to have been all drugged out then transported. Is it possible that
her father could have been this kind of person? Well, I have his military service records which I got
through the Freedom of Informatiion Act, I have a letter from him in prison where he is imprisoned for
mob crime connections, I've got a mother and a sister corroborating the domestic incest, the sister with
some patchy corroboration of ritualistic and mind control memories, I've got the father personally
connected to Jack Ruby. That's as far as it goes. It's sort of circumstantial and intriguing. So the way I
would attempt to document it would be if the person tells me (most people can't tell you the specific
name of the doctor) but if somebody gives you a specific name of a doctor, and gives you a specific
location, and you can establish that this doctor actually existed, and you can establish that in fact this
doctor was a CIA employee, and you can establish that this person's father was imprisoned by the FBI as
part of a Mafia raid by looking at the journal articles that the patient has, then you are starting to get
closer and closer. So it is your basic investigative reporting type stuff. Name the specific base. Okay
what do you know about the base? How did you get there? Tell me about some buildings? Tell me about
personnel. Describe the uniforms. What was used? And then if you can get another subject who was
there at the same time ... that's just the way it is. It is your basic investigative reporting. Which is way
beyond being a therapist. There is no therapeutic obligation to do this. This is mega beyond duty to take
collateral history. So I don't think there is any mystery as to how it would proceed. And it will proceed
probably in the same way as the history of declassified information since WWII. In about, I think 1988,
stuff was released to the Senate and the Congress and then to the Press about all these radiation
experiments. Nobody did anything. It didn't even get into the newspapers. It was in the public domain
for five years before it finally hits the newspapers. Now we've got this government report that is 900
pages long on all the radiation experiments, including giving radiation to children and radiation to
pregnant mothers and the children of those pregnancies dying of leukemia by age five. This is huge, big
stuff. Everybody was apathetic, didn't think it was newsworthy, didn't even put it as a little trailer item in
the New York Times. This is no longer vague. We know the specific names of people, when they died,
whether it was plutonium or whatever was injected, the names of the doctors, the names of the medical
schools where it was done, it's all keyed up for compensation, the government has set up a whole
compensation mechanism. If we look at the Tuscagee Syphilis Study ... it is worse than the creation of
Manchurian Candidates. It was set up in Tuscagee, Alabama in the 1940's. The experiment is-you've got
400 rural, dirt-poor black guys with active syphilis and 400 controls. These people are followed without
treatment into the 1970's. The people who are involved in the Tuscagee Syphilis Study (it is a huge long
list and I can't remember all the details of it) but it includes the County Medical Society, the
administration of the study was actually taken over by the Centre of Disease Control, the Surgeon
General, the American Heart Association, all kinds of people were witting, knowledgeable and aware of
the study and ap proved its ongoing nature well into the 60's and into the 70's, in complete violation of
all known medical ethics. Well okay, that was kept kind of secret. Nobody heard about it except some of
these medical bigwigs. No. I have a medical paper from the medical school published in 1965 called
"Untreated Syphilis in a Male Negro - A 20 year follow-up". This stuff is published, right in the medical
literature. It is looking everybody right in the face. What happens when you have 400 illiterate rural
black guys with active syphilis untreated, for 40 years? Well, the outcome of the experiment is, you will
be very surprised to hear, they don't do too well, they develop a lot of disease, and they die young. They
do another thing. They breathe air. There is another behaviour that we can predict in these guys. They
eat food. Going down the list? They urinate and defecate. Continuing along with basic human functions,
they have sexual intercourse with women. Anybody who has been to medical school will tell you it is
100% guaranteed that if you take 400 black guys with syphilis and do not treat them, the rest of t heir
lives, you are guaranteed to be creating cases of congenital syphilis. The entire medical community
knows this as an elementary fact that you learn in first year medical school, it is published in the medical
literature, and it's condoned by all levels of the old boys network in world medicine. This is totally
unbelievable and completely factual. This Manchurian Candidate stuff is like Mickey Mouse Psych
stuff. It's not even heavy duty. The nurse who was the head of the Tuscagee Syphilis study throughout
its duration, actually got an award from the Public Health Service because of her work on the Tuscagee
Syphilis Study. The individual guys have gone and testified at the Senate. You can read the book, "Bad
Blood" and these guys are named as individual human beings. Which individual human beings who are
victims of military mind control research do we already know? Harold Blauer, the tennis pro who was
killed. Frank Olson who was killed because he jumped through a window because he took LSD mixed
with Cointro by Sidney Gottlieb, administrative Head of MKULTRA who I talked to on the telephone.
When was the Olson family compensated? He died in 1955 or something. They were compensated by
the President in 1977 I think it was. The reason the wife and surviving children figured that in fact this
was not a simple suicide was they read the Rockefeller Report on CIA activities published in 1975 in
which the case was described without him being named. So, they are reading the Rockefeller Report,
and they realize their husband/father was actually killed by experimental LSD and they are compensated
for 3/4 of a million dollars. One of the people who testified at the Committee hearings at the Senate in
1975 was a technician for Amadeo Morazzi who was the guy who w as the Head of Edgeware Arsenal
where Paul Hawk got his LSD and mescaline from who was funded by the Air Force while he was at the
University of Minnesota. His research assistant whose name is Mary Ray(sp) was given a dose of
experimental LSD which resulted in an acute psychotic state for which she was admitted to hospital for
which I have her medical records, and I am in contact with her lawyer and I am going to go up and get
her story in more detail. She talks about a room that was involved in the LSD research called "The Leaf
Room" so when you were on your LSD trip that was administered by Amadeo Morazzi you were taken
into the Leaf Room which was a room where all surfaces of the room were totally covered with leaves.
This is weird stuff. She also was connected into a bunch of other stuff. I am not going to go into all of it,
because it is a little weird, but it is two hops from Mary Ray to Iran Contra. So she is a real person who
exists. I know her lawyer. I talked to her lawyer on the phone. I am going to fly up there. I am going to
interview her. I have her medical records. And the way this works is the stuff that is happening now is
not going to be declassified for 20 or 30 years. Eventually we will have the names of people who were
victims of experiments in the 70's and 80's and 90's. We already have the names for the 50's and 60's, not
really into the 70's. We have the names of specific people who were victims of the Tuscagee Syphilis
Study and the radiation experiments into the 70's. That's the way it goes. You are just pushing back that
curtain and there's always this lag time because you are relying on the views of the Intelligence
Community or public apathy ... "it was back in the Cold War" "it's different now" "we joined the boy
scouts and we don't do that anymore". So there is always a disinformation strategy for wh y it happened
a long time ago and we don't do it now and we are very regretful and we are so regretful that we in fact
agree to compensate these victims. In Oregon there was a prison where men were paid to be subjects to
participate in radiation experiments. Their testicles had been irradiated so they would get paid a certain
fee to participate in the radiation of their testicles. Special arrangements were made so Catholics couldn't
participate in the study because they couldn't use birth control so they might give birth to genetically
mutated children ... so it had to be only non-Catholic participants. There was an extra fee, it was a little
bit fatter, if you would agree to testicle biopsy to see if the radiation was dropping the sperm count.
When 9 of these people pressed their case to the State Legislature in Oregon in either the late 70's or
early 80's, in its magnanimity, the Legislature agreed to compensate them for a total of $3000 for all
nine subjects. So this is the way it goes in trying to document this stuff and trying to make it public and
identify the specific individuals. IT'S A BIG SLOW JOB. And when you make Freedom of Information
requests it's like interacting with any Federal Bureaucracy.
In fact the CIA has been extremely helpful, extremely polite, extremely courteous and when I went to
the CIA Reading Room in Washington, it was a very unusual experience. Let me just tell you the story.
Here I am, a Canadian psychiatrist, going down to the Eastern Regional Conference, and a day early I
pop over to the CIA Reading Room to look at the MKULTRA documents to figure out which ones I
want to order at 10 cents a page which they then shipped to me which arrives at my office via UPS with
CIA stamped in the corner ... I'm wondering who thinks that's weird ... so I show up and it is just this
building in Virginia, on a street, it is completely unrecognizable as anything ... I get dropped off there ...
whoa ... there's all these guys in uniforms and here I am, this civilian. On the wall there is "Secure
Telephone CIA and DIA Only" and I am kind of standing around and some guy says "Good Morning
Sir" ... I say I am here to read some CIA documents. I am supposed to show up at this location at this
time and here is the letter ... and they're going, CIA jeez ... who are we going to phone ... are you
supposed to tell somebody you are here, or how is this supposed to work? Well, I don't know, I was just
told to show up here ... he says, well, we don't know who was supposed to meet you ... so I say, well,
could I use your phone ... not that phone ... this phone over here. I phone my secretary and ask what's the
telephone number of the contact person? She gives it to me and I tell them you're supposed to contact
this person at this phone number. It's okay, they say, they're going to be down in a minute. So then I sign
in ... I am escorted up the elevator ... it's all military guys and I'm in the elevator thinking okay which
one of these guys is doing surveillance on me? I come up to the floor and I am walking along and it's a
federal building and the floor is under repair ... there's all kinds of construction stuff lying around, and
construction guys ... I go walking along accompanied by this CIA person, and I go into the first room
which has a steel vault door and says "Secured Area: Treasury Department" ... I go into that room and
they close the door. I am now in a Secured Area. She says Okay sign in here ... I think I signed in ... I
forget. Then I go through another Secured steel door into a second Secured Area except I can't enter that
Secured Area except from another Secured Space. I sit down and they bring in all the documents on a
little cart and she gives me 15-20 pencils beautifully sharpened, and a notepad and everything ... you
order which documents you want at the end of the day ... and there's a woman who is at least 80, if not
85, who is a retired volunteer, sitting there watching me all day. In the room that I am in, that is a
Secured Space has a door opened back to the hallway that I came down from the elevator to come to the
first Secured Space to go into the ... I am sitting there working away on this huge amount of documents
all day ... work work work work ... some time in the middle of the day this old woman comes at me, now
I am thinking, is this old woman trying to pump me for information, what's here report going to be back
at the end of the day? She says, "well, what's that stuff you are reading?" I am trying to act casually, I
just say, "Well, it's just a bunch of mind control documents from the 50's and 60's." And she says well, is
that stuff classified, and I say, no, no, it was declassified a long time ago, and she says, well what do
they need me here for? I go, I don't know and then I stopped talking to her and I started focusing down
on the paper. So then I get distracted by a couple of black guys who are walking down the corridor who
have something to do with the construction. The 85 year old woman who is watching me has to go to the
restroom so they are assigned to watch me from the door. They're some black guys who start joking
around, oh oh this guy's pretty dangerous, we'll have to watch him ... then at the end of the day I leave.
That's my experience at the CIA. But the main contact person is very friendly, very polite, very efficient,
very helpful ... and it's through this process, I mean they have given me these documents, they are the
ones who have made it possible to prove that the CIA has been creating Manchurian Candidates ... I
have all these other requests on MKSearch, MKNAOMI, and stuff and I am going to put one in on
Stargate. If you want to do a request on an individual, it turns out that you have to establish his place and
date of birth, his full name, his date of death, the fact that he was an American citizen, and you have to
have public documentation of his death before they will do a search. Which is the proper protection of
people. So you have to do all of this background research to find out when did Carl Pfeiffer die, and
where did he died, and get a newspaper clipping from Atlanta to document that. Then you said all that
information into them, and he asks for information on this particular guy and they send you back the
MKULTRA documents that you already have, that you already know is due to him, except now his
name is not whited out. So a lot of it is just dealing with a Federal Bureaucracy and it's just REALLY
REALLY SLOW and they say ... we've only got two secretaries and we've got a million requests and we
are too overloaded and we don't have our new computer system but we are working on it ... it's it's just a
VERY VERY SLOW LABORIOUS PROCESS TO GET THIS STUFF. If it is already declassified and
it is indexed, then you can get it fairly quickly ... like the MKULTRA stuff. If it is just being organized
and isn't yet declassified, then you get in a line, and you are piggybacked on top of the first requester.
When the first requester gets the stuff, you will get it as well. MKSEARCH? I have been waiting for a
couple of years already. So it's like ... you're trying to change the way agriculture is administered in the
USA ... it's this huge laborious process, and you are just trying to egg the bureaucracy on and on and
on ... But just to kind of repeat the editorial comment, basically I don't have a beef with the Intelligence
Agencies. My beef is with the psychiatrists and the psychologists. Questions or comments? Q. Do I
know if I am being surveilled? A. I have been approached by millions of people at conferences. I don't
know if any of them are operatives or not. I have had no negative, scary, frightening, intimidations,
threats, my office hasn't been broken into, no mail tampering, nothing has gone missing, no patients
have done anything weird or dangerous towards me, nobody has disappeared, no dead chickens on my
doorstep ... nobody has hustled me into a black car and all of a sudden I am in Topeka, Kansas and I
don't know how I got there. Nothing like that has happened, so I just assume that if it hasn't happened by
now, it's already too late, like what's the point? Part of this story, and it is the personal side of it, is, how
do you work your way through all this material and get more and more and more of these connections
and not succumb to terminal paranoia? And it's really just sort of a Zen ... the Zen of investigating
military mind control ... you just have to stay centered and decide not to be paranoid ... not let it get to
you. Because you can get off into how many witnesses to the JFK assassination are dead, and what
about Pan Am 103, what about Timothy McVeigh's computer chip in his buttock ... you can really get
out there real fast. When he was first arrested, Timothy McVeigh said he had a computer chip implanted
in his buttock ... On the other hand, I hope Intelligence Agencies are not so fast asleep ... basically ... it is
narcistically injurious to think they are not paying any attention at all ... I can't take that. I know for a
fact they have a file on me because I have filed millions of Freedom of Information Act requests. The
other thing I know is I got my Green Card in 1994 at the highest level of Green Card there is ... it's a
level where you don't have to even have a job ... or any visible sign of support ... and I got this
Immigration lawyer who put my whole c.v., and all my publications, and letters from people together,
and so that involves, obviously, a security screen by the State Department which means connected to
Justice and connected to FBI etc etc so I know I have been screened through all that kind of mechanism
and come out ... in fact, I had to go to Calgary for the Green Card and the consulate came up and shook
my hand and said, "boy I bet you we've got a lot if dissociation disorders right here ... we could really
use you." [lots of laughter] Q. unintelligible A. I think they are trying to pretend that they are not going
to get uncovered and just carry on with life and enjoy their retirements ... Over all, what's going on
now ... I assume that there is still a lot of research funding through cutouts with unwitting
investigators ... I assume there is a bunch of witting investigators. There is another arm going on
currently ... that's artificial intelligence Overall, what is going on now? I assume that there is still a lot of
funding of research through cutouts with unwitting investigators. I assume there is a bunch of witting
investigators. Let me tell you about another arm that is going on currently. That is artificial intelligence
research. I know that, for instance, Marvin Merskey at MIT, in his book, "The Society of Minds", he
acknowledges his extensive Office of Naval Research Funding. That goes back to John Lilly who is tied
into the LSD network who treated dolphins with LSD - he was involved in communication with
dolphins - it is a documented fact they have been used to swim up to ships to blow them up - with bombs
attached to the dolphins during the Vietnam War. We hear weird stuff from patients sometimes about
dolphins and mind control. John Lilly is tied into the LSD network and I have him attending CIA
sponsored LSD symposia. He invented the flotation tank - flotation tank is in network in all the sensory
deprivation stuff and mixed in with hallucinogens. He wrote a program on metaprogramming and the
human computer which is an early artificial intelligence treatise that basically defines a modularity
model of the human mind which is the dominant model of neuronetworks, all that area of artificial
intelligence and a whole bunch of different Office of Naval Research funding. That is ongoing up to the
present ... there is Office of Naval Research funding for this kind of project ... also for rat physiology, rat
psychology ... research that has to do with modularity of brain functions and modularity of memory
which all is directly relevant to creating Manchurian Candidates because you want to know the modular
organization of the brain. Q. ____ A. If the hypothesis is that ... now I am not saying that everybody on
the FMSF Advisory Board consciously is aware of this ... most of them are totally out to lunch and have
never heard of it or thought of it ... the point would be that the Intelligence Agencies have somehow
penetrated the FMS movement and are trying to spin it in that direction and amplify it for those purposes
and candidate people for Intelligence oversight would be Martin Orne, Joly West, Richard Ofshe, etc.
Maybe Michael Persinger. So if that is the hypothesis, the basic thing is to cover up government created
Manchurian Candidates, why are all the patients coming in with SRA stories? Well, that could be just
accidentally related and just part of a cultural hysteria and not real. The other paranoid conspiracy theory
is that the Intelligence Agencies sub-contracted the cults to prime the children to be good subjects for
really really complicated Manchurian Candidates. Because if you just start with G.I. Joe at age 19, you
can't get intensely polyfragmented multi layers of defense system in place very easily. One of the pieces
of logic that I didn't mention is ... if you go back to G.H. Estabrooks in WWII, he is creating one alter
personality in an adult recruit. Let's look at the stages the computer is at during WWII and run up to
1996. We have to postulate that the technical advance and the increase in complexity in mind control
research operations is at least somewhat parallel to the complexity of artificial intelligence, all the rest of
science, etc. So if they are still doing it, it's got to be a lot more complicated. You can't get to a lot more
complicated from a foundation of a normal 18 year old military recruit ... so that's the ultimate in
paranoid conspiracy theory. It's a matter of putting windows in the program ... the first window that
comes open is the SRA -- the window behind that is the military mind control. Alternatively the whole
SRA thing itself could be deliberate disinformation that has been implanted in the culture. Broaden the
question a little bit. What's my political recommendation on what should be the legal liability of
government induced Manchurian Candidates for criminal acts that they have perpetrated? I would say
that we should have a double amnesty program. And this is for strategic purposes. Politics is the art of
the impossible. Some people could say this is unethical and this is caving in and playing the game. I
think we have to have a double amnesty program for any criminal acts conducted by government
induced Manchurian Candidates in the course of the government operations-and also amnesty for their
handlers. Because if we don't have that, then the drive to keep it all covered up is too great. My basic
argument is that the Intelligence Community has been sold a bogus bill of goods by these guys, like G.
H. Estabrooks and all his heirs down the line. It is overkill, it is unnecessary, it's ridiculous ... you can
just drop it ... and there will be no operational loss. Do I know that for a fact? I haven't got the faintest
idea. But that's what I propose to them-they could do their own analysis. If we are going to stop it, and
let it come out to the public, that will never happen if the individual handlers and operators in the
Intelligence Community are going to be nailed in public and personally responsible. So there has to be a
double amnesty program ... but then there has to be financial compensation for the victims who get
identified. That is less likely to happen if the compensation comes out of the Intelligence budget-
therefore, it ought to come out of general Federal funds-not to reduce Intelligence funding-otherwise you
have set up systemic disincentive for this stuff to ever be declassified. However, that should not cover
drug, pimping, and other operations run on the side by handlers doing Manchurian Candidates. Q.__ A.
This is an extremely tricky question that you are asking. Why does a government created multiple get
off the hook and a domestic created multiple doesn't? The domestic created multiple is not going to be
happy. I will give the reason I don't let the domestic created multiple off the hook-really quickly-it is
that it destroys the foundation of recovery. The foundation of recovery is "you are not insane, you're not
out of control, it's something you created inside yourself to survive, you can un-learn it, and be well."
And part of healing is being responsible for what you do now. If we don't do that, the whole unit gets
behaviourally out of control. So, like it or not, we hold people responsible for the behaviour of their
alters, and I don't view DID as grounds for an insanity defense in and of itself. So then you are going to
say, well why doesn't that then apply to these government created people? Well, I just think it is
different. When you've been deliberately, systematically experimented on by a government, you deserve
a bit of a break for actions which you have committed as part of your government assignment ... in other
words, if you are a Manchurian Candidate and you are just out in the world and you go out and rape
somebody, good, you do the crime, you do the time, that's my attitude. I am only talking about crimes
that they have committed, specifically on assignment for the military Intelligence Agencies. They are
basically soldiers at war. Q. __ A. Where does Charter Hospital fit in? I would like to know if Charter
fits in anywhere. One thing that I would be willing to do, would be to run a classified unit for treatment
of these individuals. I would be very happy to do that and to negotiate a Management Services Contract
with the Federal government to do that- R. Q. __ A. Does any of my work support Cory Hammond's talk
at the Regional Eastern Conference in 1992 for which he has been attacked and ridiculed about Dr.
Green and all that? Not directly. Indirectly, and when you tie into the Paperclip conspiracy ... I am
getting the documentation much closer to conclusion, that, if not Dr. Green, some psychological warfare
experts must have been brought over from Nazi Germany. So that part of it is no longer kooky. I think
that Cory Hammond made a strategic error by going too far out beyond his documentation too fast, and
leaving himself exposed to ridicule. Although I am thankful to him that he did that because then I
learned alternative strategies. Q. ___ A. The whole way that the tobacco industry is set up ... regulated,
not regulated, funded, lobbied, and the disinformation campaign that it is run by the tobacco companies-
is basically effective-they are still being sold and they are still making a profit off of killing people. So
you could say that's like a lung control experimentation program that has been run by the tobacco
companies and everybody is just kind of, in effect, letting it go by. Except actually the medical
profession and the public has gotten on tobacco way more than they have ever gotten on mind control ...
but we will change that with the book and the movie. (Laughter and much applause)

Producer Wayne Morris
Interviews Dr. Colin Ross

Second in a Series of Broadcasts aired Sunday April 6, 1997 on CKLN-FM 88.1 in Toronto
[W.M. is Wayne Morris, C.R. is Dr. Colin Ross]

W.M. I am speaking with Dr. Colin Ross, a psychiatrist and researcher practicing in Dallas, Texas. Dr.
Ross, I wonder if you could just briefly describe who you are, and what your work is.
C.R. I am a Canadian by birth and training ... I went to medical school in Edmonton, Alberta and did my
psychiatry training in Winnipeg, Manitoba. I moved down here to Dallas just a little over five years ago.
I am a specialist in Multiple Personality Disorder. I have written a number of different books, and lots of
research papers and so on, on that. Right now I am working at a hospital in the Dallas area here. We
have a program that we run on a contract for the hospital ... which mostly treats people with Multiple
Personality Disorder and other related disorders. Most of the people we treat describe very traumatic and
abusive childhoods.
W.M. What is Dissociative Identity Disorder, and is it the same thing as Multiple Personality Disorder?
C.R. Dissociative Identity Disorder is the official new name for Multiple Personality Disorder. It hasn't
really caught on in general language ... it's a professional, technical term. In 1994 that new diagnosis was
introduced. It just replaces Multiple Personality Disorder, and the criteria for diagnosing it has changed a
little bit, mainly by adding some criteria for amnesia. But it basically means the same thing as Multiple
Personality Disorder.
W.M. What does it mean when somebody has this disorder?
C.R. The basic criteria for diagnosing it are pretty straightforward. You have these different personality
states, or identities, that take turns being in control of the body. There is some sort of amnesia, or
memory barrier, between the different personality states. There are several important points to
understand about this disorder. First of all, it is not literally true that they have these different
personalities. They just have these fragmented components of one personality. Those have been referred
to as different "personalities" for over one hundred years, but they are not really different personalities.
There isn't really more than one person there. And there are several different ways you can end up
having MPD. One way, which is what we think we see most of the time clinically is where you have
basically been physically, sexually, emotionally abused or neglected as a child and you create these
different identities to cope with it, and hold the memories and feelings about it, and so on. That can be,
as I said, a combination of various types of trauma in childhood, and it has to be fairly serious trauma.
And another way that you can get MPD is where it is created, either by mistake, or deliberately, by
somebody else. And that could be in bad therapy, which is all out of control and not being handled
properly. And the other major way of arriving at MPD is when you have what is called a Factitious
Disorder. That means that they deliberately fake having it by deliberately getting into the patient role to
get attention, or get out of something, or for some specific purpose.
W.M. Have you seen this disorder occur due to trauma as an adult, or does it specifically happen while a
child?
C.R. Well, there are some cases reported in the literature and there is the odd case where it is trauma that
starts in adulthood, but the vast majority of times it seems to start in childhood.
W.M. We have listened to your lecture about the history of United States' mind control. You refer to the
term "iatrogenic". What does that mean?
C.R. "Iatrogenic" is just a Greek word that means "created by the doctor". So Iatrogenic Multiple
Personality is MPD that is created by mistake by a bad therapist who is using improper techniques.
W.M. How did you get involved with people suffering with DID?
C.R. I actually diagnosed my first case when I was a medical student in Edmonton, Alberta and I just
really found it fascinating and interesting and when I was doing my four years of psychiatry training in
Winnipeg, Manitoba I saw one more case, and I thought it was going to be too rare to specialize in ... but
then in 1985, when I finished my psychiatry training I diagnosed another case, and then I got some
referrals and then more referrals, and then I got a reputation for it and ended up getting lots of referrals
from all different kinds of people in Western Canada and gradually switched over to that being my
specialty.
W.M. And this was when you were operating a practice in Winnipeg, or was it in Edmonton, at the
time?
C.R. Winnipeg. I was a full-time University Professor of Psychiatry at the time at one of the hospitals
there.
W.M. What were your findings from working with people with DID or MPD?
C.R. Well, I have published just on working with MPD and related things, approximately sixty or so
papers in the professional literature, and I found quite a few different things. But the main theme that
really goes through the MPD literature ... that is, that people who have this diagnosis clinically have lots
of other things going on at the same time ... lots of depression, lots of anxiety, drug and alcohol
problems, eating disorder, sleep problems ... so they don't just have MPD ... they have all kinds of
different symptoms. They also tend to be in the health care system for quite a long period of time ... not
all the time ... but the majority of cases are in the health care system getting psychiatric treatment for
quite a while ... on average about seven years before the MPD is diagnosed. And the other theme that we
see going all the time is childhood trauma ... that MPD arises as a way of coping with childhood trauma.
Then we just actually found out this week that a paper has been accepted at the American Journal of
Psychiatry where we assessed 103 people with this diagnosis here in Dallas about almost exactly four
years ago now ... where we gave them a whole bunch of different questionnaires and standardized tests
and interviews and so on, and we followed up with as many as we could ... about fifty-four of them ...
and the reduction of all these different symptoms was really impressive and already in the first four
years of the study, twelve of the fifty-four people are integrated back into one person. They had a
dramatic and meaningful reduction, not just in the number of MPD related symptoms ... but also
depression, anxiety, substance abuse, all kinds of things. So this is a first scientifically designed
treatment outcome study that really shows that good treatment can be very helpful.
W.M. So these people you are talking about did undergo treatment with you, or other therapists?
C.R. They came to our hospital ... usually for an average of about seventeen days or so. 70% of our
people are from outside Texas, so they are from over the U.S.A. and we have had probably fifteen
admissions from people in Ontario. They would then go home, and are followed up by their therapists.
So they only get about two, three, sometimes four weeks with us. They may go into our day hospital
program for a little bit as well. But basically they are followed up by therapists all over the country.
W.M. And are these therapists in contact with you in terms of methods of therapy?
C.R. They have usually read my books, and been to some of my workshops, and are aware of my
approach. But they don't have to necessarily follow my approach.
W.M. And these other symptoms that you were talking about ... do you feel that they were also a result
of childhood trauma?
C.R. Yes. The whole package seems to be related to childhood trauma. Now we have a lot of
controversy going on in society about this ... in psychiatry, psychology, sociology, and so on ... and we
need a lot more research, but that's my understanding right now. There's a fair bit of research data that
backs that up ... it's not totally nailed down scientifically.
W.M. I am wondering from your experience working in Canada, how has the Canadian medical system
responded to your findings on MPD research?
C.R. Roughly about the same as in the U.S.A. Overall, there is a lot of skepticism, a lot of political
agitation, a fair bit of negative, hostile propaganda, and back-stabbing about it. And then there is also
quite a lot of support. Obviously, if I have had sixty professional papers published, I am getting a
reasonable reception. The main difference between Canada and the U.S.A. was that in Canada I just
couldn't get the financial and clinical support to set up and run a program. And the reason that is possible
down here is that there is a private, for profit sector in the mental health system. It is profit driven, it is a
business and the hospital that I contract with is traded on the New York Stock Exchange and so on. And
since I attract the patients, there is a financial motive for the hospital to be interested in having me
provide that service. So that financial motive allows the system to set aside all of these ideological and
political debates that go on and so therefore I am able to run a program.
W.M. So for the survivors of childhood abuse that you are dealing with I guess they would have to have
access to some kind of funds to be able to undergo therapy. What is your sense of people who have
undergone this in childhood and do not have access to therapy?
C.R. The breakdown in terms of insurance coverage that we have in our program is that roughly 50%
are on Medicare which is a government disability program. They are sort of like Canadian health care
system people in that their health care is paid for by the government, and they also get disability/welfare
type payments for their support. So half of our people are insured in a way that is clearly similar to
Canada. The other half have some sort of private insurance through their employer or spouse's employer.
If you are in the one-third of people in the U.S.A. who don't have proper medical insurance, then you
can't get proper medical care, including psychiatric, and including the kind we provide. That would seem
to be a reason to think that the Canadian health care system is superior to the U.S.A. The funny thing is
that if you have MPD or a related disorder, your odds of getting treatment are actually better in the U.S.
A. because there are more therapists and more programs in the U.S.A. In Canada, even though you have
universal access and universal coverage, in actual practical reality, you can't get the treatment. You have
theoretical universal coverage for MPD and trauma related disorders, but you don't have the real
practical coverage in reality. The paradox is that in the U.S.A., the higher percentage of people who
could benefit from psychotherapy from all kinds of problems resulting from their childhoods who can
actually get therapy is higher in the U.S.A.
W.M. In your previous lecture, you did go into a lot of detail outlining the history of mind control. What
is the link between MPD and mind control experimentation?
C.R. How I got into this was sort of a back-door route. I didn't really have any interest in the CIA or the
military or mind control research or all of that particularly when I left Canada. Hadn't read about it,
hadn't really heard any other doctors talking about it, hadn't heard any patients talking about it. Pretty
soon, after arriving in Texas in 1992, MPD patients started talking about strange experiences that I didn't
know what to make of ... it involved either going into hospitals, some sort of research setting on a
military base, and having different kinds of experiments done on them which involved EEG machines or
some kind of scientific equipment, sensory deprivation, and maybe physical spinning, maybe
hallucinogens. And it wasn't any kind of cult or obviously wasn't just their parents or something going
on in their family and initially I thought it was just too much to believe. Then I decided I should at least
look into it a little bit, and I started basically in early 1992 doing a little bit of reading, and the more
reading I did ... what amazed me was that instead of coming to the conclusion that "well this is not
possible, there is no documentation of this stuff", actually the more I read, the more documentation I got.
All kinds of absolutely unbelievable, bizarre and unethical and harmful mind control research has been
done, in Canada and in the U.S.A. since the Second World War. And I have actually interviewed and
spoken with a number of people who have documented mind control research. Most of the patients that
we hear these kinds of things from get zero documentation that is actually real. Though I kind of
disconnected my research and my study about this from the stories I was hearing from the patients, and
did it as a separate research project. What I have done over the past five years is talked to a lot of other
people in the field who are interested in this, read pretty much everything that has been written on this,
and under the Freedom of Information Act I have somewhere in the ballpark of 6000-7000 pages of
documents from the CIA which I have reviewed. I have gone to the medical school library, and I sent
my secretary to five or six different places in the U.S.A. ... go into archives and special collections in
libraries and so on ... and I have ended up now with probably more than two full four drawer filing
cabinets full of documentation on all kinds of things ... that is how I got into this. And the connection
with MPD for me personally was just that my MPD patients were the ones who started me these kinds of
stories and got me interested in it.
W.M. From a therapist's point of view, how do you tell if somebody is giving you an account of actual
abuse or whether they are just fabricating something?
C.R. Well, basically, all the professional associations, including the Canadian Psychiatric Association,
who have made statements on this, and all the scientific research, completely supports the conclusion
that you can't tell. And that goes both ways ...
W.M. You cannot tell?
C.R. You cannot tell just by listening to the patient's story ... you can't tell that it is true. Also you can't
tell that it is false. In other words you can't tell without some sort of outside proof. That is proof that it
really happened, or proof that it didn't happen. What I have learned especially in the last five years, there
is really no limit to how detailed, how compelling, how full of feeling ... how detailed a bunch of
memories can be and actually be totally real, or never have happened. I have worked with people who
have had really elaborate memories of all kinds of things with tremendous amounts of detail and then we
have been able to prove it never happened. You can't tell. And that's why I have tried to do this
research ... separate it off from what the patients are telling me.
W.M. What similarities have you come across within the survivor accounts and what you have
discovered in the CIA documentation about their mind control programs?
C.R. Well, basically, if you take a typically elaborate story that you will hear from one of the MPD
patients who has these kinds of memories, and you break it down into the elements or components of the
mind control techniques that are described, I have been able to document every one with one or two
exceptions. All of this was carried out in a series of programs that really began in the Second World War
with what was called the O.S.S., the Office of Strategic Services ...
W.M. The precursor to the CIA?
C.R. Yeah. It was set up after Pearl Harbour when it became obvious that there was a huge problem
with U.S.A. military intelligence gathering because they were totally surprised by the Japanese ... and O.
S.S. was set up in 1941 and at the end of the war it was disbanded and rolled over into the C.I.A. which
was created in September of 1947 through the National Security Act with basically the same people who
had been the O.S.S. And the O.S.S. did various kinds of drug research and mind control research,
including hallucinogens ... marijuana and sodium amytal and so on ... different types of drugs. Also, they
did experiments with hypnosis ... There is then a little bit of a gap, and then in 1951, the C.I.A. started
up two programs called Artichoke and Bluebird which ran until about 1953 and rolled over into
MKULTRA which ran from 1953 to 1964. MKULTRA was rolled over into MKSEARCH which ran
until 1973, and then running concurrently with MKULTRA and MKSEARCH roughly about ten other
programs were declassified. There is a little smattering of information on each of those. You have names
like MKNAOMI, QKHILLTOP, and MKDELTA ... by far the best known and the one I have the most
documents on are MKULTRA. It involved 149 different, separate contracts at about eighty different
institutions throughout Canada and the U.S.A. In MKNAOMI, MKULTRA, and MKSEARCH, there are
basically about three major blocks or types of kinds of mind control research. About half the projects in
MKULTRA, for instance, were on a sort of procurement, manufacture or supplying chemicals ... which
are mostly hallucinogens, sometimes biological warfare weapons such as bacteria or viruses, and
sometimes other kinds of chemicals for mind control research. So it was just straight contracting to get
the chemicals. An example of that would be, in 1953 one of the MKULTRA sub-projects was a
$400,000 grant to Eli Lilly which is the drug company that manufactures Prozac ... and that was for
manufacturing LSD. So the first major supplier of LSD in North America was actually the Eli Lilly
Drug Company.
W.M. And there's actually evidence that the C.I.A. was responsible for the distribution of this
throughout the U.S.A. and across North America?
C.R. Yes, they used it in actual experiments, and they also turned some of it over to the military through
the MKNAOMI program. A lot of the Army mind control and drug research was done at the Edgeware
Arsenal, which has been in the news a lot recently because of a lot of sexual assault and rape of female
army personnel there, and it is linked to Fort Detrick and Aberdeen Proving Ground in Maryland ... a
little bit north of Washington, D.C.
W.M. Is this the same military base that the BBC documentary focused on about them giving very
powerful drugs to U.S. soldiers?
C.R. Yes. It was the major centre for all kinds of hallucinogen and other drug research. The main one, or
best known, is LSD, but actually the Army released a list of about 130 compounds that it tested in mind
control research. That was released in 1975. There are at least 130 drugs or compounds that they admit
they were using on experimental subjects. They admitted, in the mid-1970's, to testing LSD on at least
1500 subjects ... so if you just do the arithmetic very roughly, they gave LSD to 1500 people, and they
tested 130 drugs ... that was just the Army ... and you figure there are four branches of the military in the
U.S.A. plus the C.I.A., you are talking about a huge number of people ... potentially hundreds of
thousands of people who got at least one dose of an experimental mind control drug, usually without any
kind of adequate informed consent at all.
W.M. Who typically would these people be? Where were they drawing their subjects from?
C.R. Actually, I would just like to pop back to talking about Eli Lilly for a second just to finish off that
part of the story, then I will answer that question. LSD was discovered accidentally in 1943 by a man
named Albert Hoffman, working at Sandoz Pharmaceuticals in Switzerland, which is a drug company.
What happened was that in the late 40's, early 50's a rumour developed that the Russians might buy up
or try to buy up the entire world supply of LSD. That is why the C.I.A. decided to contract with the drug
company in the U.S.A. which manufactures Prozac, which is Eli Lilly ... so they could have a secure
North American supply. One of the things that amazed me, absolutely the most, doing this research was
to find out who the original acidheads were in North America because you would assume it would be
beatniks or criminals or musicians or somebody or other ... turns out that the original acidheads in North
America were actually the psychiatrists, and the C.I.A. and the military personnel. In conferences that
were actually sponsored by the C.I.A., I found, in books, dozens of these psychiatrists who were some of
the major drug researchers and major psychiatrists in the second half of the 20th Century ... all
describing acid trips they were on, how much they enjoyed them, how useful they thought they were,
and describing using LSD to treat all different kinds of things from alcoholism to anxiety to
homosexuality which they considered to be a disease. So they were, themselves, turning each other on
and then they were using all different kinds of subjects. The majority would be psychiatric patients who
were already in treatment; army personnel; prisoners in several different prisons in the U.S.A.; or in one
project which was in MKULTRA, they actually had prostitutes that they hired through MKULTRA and
they set up safe houses in San Francisco and New York, and the prostitutes would go out on the streets
and recruit people for tricks. The CIA people would watch the tricks through one way mirrors, monitor
the sex, and the prostitutes would slip the johns LSD and other hallucinogens, and these people were
totally unaware that they were involved in any kind of government experiment, totally unaware that they
were going to get LSD at all, gave no consent whatsoever. So most of the time the subjects were
somebody who was one notch down in the power set-up ... they were either an employee of the
institution where the doctor was doing the research, they were a patient, they were somebody in the
military who was loosely seen as a volunteer but they really didn't have much choice, or they were a
prisoner. Usually they were somebody who was under the control of the administration, under the
control of the doctor somehow to some extent.
W.M. Specifically, what prisons were involved in the mind control experiments?
C.R. One of the prisons was the New Jersey Reformatory at Bordentown (which is in Pennsylvania).
The investigator there was Carl Feiffer who had a lot of MKULTRA and MKSEARCH money. Besides
being at the New Jersey Psychiatric Research Institute, which is where he did the work at Bordentown,
he was also the Chairman of the Department of Pharmacology at one of the major universities in
Atlanta ... Emory University. While he was there, he conducted LSD experiments on the people in the
Atlanta Penitentiary. There was a narcotics farm in Lexington, Kentucky which was a prison. It was
mainly for drug related offenders. One of the more sinister ones was Vacaville State Prison in
California. Vacaville State Prison was an MKSEARCH site where they did drug research related to the
drug, Pemoline whose trade name is Silert. It is used for Attention Deficit Disorder in kids. They were
using it to study memory enhancement drugs. That was at the same time that Donald DeFreeze was an
inmate at Vacaville. Donald DeFreeze was the head of the Liberation Army that captured Patty Hearst.
At the same time there was drug research going on at the New Jersey Reformatory in Bordentown, a
man was in prison there whose name was Louis Castille, and he was later arrested in the Phillipines on
suspicion of planning to assassinate President Marcos, and he exhibited five distinct personalities during
forty different interviews conducted by the Phillipines FBI. There was consultation from the Phillipines
FBI to the American FBI in that case. Also, because he alleged he was involved in the Kennedy
assassination, there was a consultation with Gerald Ford who was on the Warren Commission. All of
this is tied into all kinds of aspects throughout the second half of the 20th Century. A very, very twisted,
convoluted history. People who were expert witnesses for Patty Hearst, who were saying that she had
been captured by the Symbionese Liberation Army and brainwashed by them using the techniques of
destructive cults were similar to the techniques of the CIA and military mind control. Those witnesses
included Robert Lifton, Margaret Singer, Martin Orne and a psychiatrist named Joly West. Martin Orne
and Joly West were top secret clearance for MKULTRA money. The funny thing about Patty Hearst is
that her new identity named "Tania" had been created using brainwashing techniques, and Patty Hearst
identified herself as "Tania" when she robbed a bank. She was convicted and found guilty, and actually
sent to jail for that. The experts in a lot of the CIA mind control programming were very aware of the
possibility of creating an artificial multiple personality through mind control techniques, and they
testified that this had been done by this character, Donald DeFreeze, who was a black criminal and petty
thief. There are several strange twists in that story. One of the strange twists, which is somewhat
documented, but not completely documented, is that according to several different sources, including
Patty Hearst's autobiography as well, Colston Westbrook was an employee of the CIA and psychological
expert during the Vietnam War. He came back and got a teaching position at the University of Berkeley
as a language instructor, and then he entered Vacaville Prison under the cover of the Black Cultural
Association, which was a black prisoners/inmates' association, and he used mind control techniques on
Donald DeFreeze and actually gave him his code name of Cinque, and designed the seven headed cobra
logo/symbol of the Symbionese Liberation Army. Then Donald DeFreeze was transferred from
maximum security in this facility (Vacaville) to a low security facility from which he immediately
escaped and several months after that he captured Patty Hearst and used fairly sophisticated mind
control techniques on her and created a Manchurian Candidate second identity in her named "Tania".
W.M. So, unless this is all highly coincidental, then what you are saying is that the SLA was a CIA
creation.
C.R. I don't know for a documented fact that it's true, but that is what these several different books are
alleging, and they are fairly detailed and I am trying to research up on that. But it is absolutely known
for a fact that these two doctors, Dr. West and Dr. Orne, had extensive funding from all branches of
military intelligence from the CIA and had top secret clearance, and they described the process in a lot
of detail by which this artificial multiple personality was created in Patty Hearst. So that's just not my
opinion and my theory, that's their opinion and their theory which they testified to in court. Not so much
Joly West, but Martin Orne is tied in to a man named G.H. Estabrooks who was one of probably the top
ten leading experts on hypnosis in the 20th Century ... Martin Orne would probably be in the top
handful ... G.H. Estabrooks was actually a Canadian by birth, he was a Rhodes Scholar, moved into
Upper State New York, and basically spent his professional career in New York at a little college called
Colgate College in Hamilton, New York which is not too far from Buffalo. And he published starting in
1943 and going all the way up to 1971 ... very very detailed accounts of creating Multiple Personalities
during WWII for various branches of the U.S.A. military. Basically, he called these people Multiple
Personalities. He talked about the Multiple Personality literature, and he referred to them as super-spies.
The idea is that you create somebody artificially, using hypnosis and other mind control techniques who
had no multiple personality before, but now has this second identity. And the second identity is hidden
behind a memory barrier, an amnesia barrier, and there is a verbal access code that is used to call out the
second identity. So, say this person is a Marine, they will be given some kind of courier assignment to
take some documents to ie. Tokyo, but G.H. Estabrooks then calls out the second personality and sticks
in some classified information into this second personality. Then there is a switch-back to the main
identity, and the person is just going on this routine trip to take documents or technical material over to
Tokyo. When he gets to the far end, he uses the example of a Col. Brown who then uses the code signal,
and the example he uses in the description is, "The moon is clear." As soon as Col. Brown says "The
moon is clear", the second identity pops out, gives the classified message. Col. Brown inserts a classified
response, then the person pops back to their regular identity, goes back to the States and thinks they have
just gone on a routine assignment. But Estabrooks again says "The moon is clear", the identity pops out,
and Estabrooks gets the classified message. He describes using these people in classified courier
missions for actual operations, extensively many times during WWII.
W.M. So this is in George Estabrooks's own documentation that he is describing this?
C.R. Right. And he also describes using them for infiltration operations. His idea there is to take
somebody who is a loyal, patriotic Marine, and create in him a new identity, of a Communist, and you
submerge the previous identity of the patriotic Marine. Now this person who is a created really diehard
Communist, goes and infiltrates cells or political organizations and does whatever spy work is required.
The idea is that if one of these couriers, or infiltration agents is captured and interrogated, they actually
have no idea that they are spies. They generally think they are just on a regular mission, or they
generally believe they are Communist, so they can't be interrogated and they can't be made to reveal
information so easily. So of course they go in and do whatever infiltration operation is required, and then
they come back and they are debriefed by Estabrooks who knows how to get through to the original
personality. Some of these people, according to Estabrooks, were actually given dishonorable discharges
as part of their cover. One question about that is ... is Estabrooks just telling tall tales? I have been able
to build up a lot of documentation about him, and his personal archives are still housed at this Colgate
College. I photocopied probably a pile of paper at least a foot deep.
W.M. And what did those documents reveal to you?
C.R. Well, it's all his personal papers, correspondence, background. So I have original documents now
photocopies showing that he was employed by the War Department during WWII. He marketed his
ideas to every branch of Military Intelligence in the U.S.A. There is tons of correspondence with him
and all kinds of Navy, Army, Air Force intelligence people. He did a lot of training at Fort Holobird (?)
and other locations. One of the most interesting things about him was that he corresponded pretty
regularly with J. Edgar Hoover from the 1930's through to the 1960's. There is a lot of correspondence
with Hoover and there were a lot of FBI personnel who came out and visited him and attended his
different teachings, and a lot of these people talk about reading his book which came out in 1943,
"Hypnotism". In this textbook, he describes these artificial multiple personalities in a lot of detail. I have
good documentation that the CIA in Bluebird and Artichoke did pretty much the same experiments.
They describe several different things. They don't describe actual operations, but they describe real-life
simulations where they are testing these people. They describe the same things that Estabrooks is talking
about where they hypnotize somebody, condition a second personality that can stand up to a lie detector
test. Also they describe having amnesia barriers and having people go on assignments where they go to
another building and rifle through some materials, take some documents and bring them back, and then
have no memory of doing this whatsoever. In MKULTRA there was a contractor named Alden Sears
who did experiments at the University of Minnesota and the University of Denver which were very
similar and there is a lot of documentation of him procuring CIA safe houses for some of his
experiments and doing demonstrations with some of these techniques for military and CIA personnel,
and creating hypnotic couriers, and so on. So there are several sets of documents that back up that this
was done at an experimental level by the CIA successfully. But I don't have documents about their use in
operations.
W.M. You mentioned that there are three areas of interest in the mind control experimentation. I wonder
if you could just review those again? You mentioned drugs.
C.R. A big chunk was just the manufacture and supply of drugs, chemicals and biological weapons.
Another chunk was actually using the drugs in experiments on people to try and create amnesia, to try
and create altered states of consciousness, to test the drugs for interrogation purposes, and also to test
them for detecting hypnotically programmed agents. There was a team called The Artichoke Team,
which was created as part of Artichoke. It would use different and mind control, sensory deprivation
techniques to try and figure out if somebody had been hypnotically programmed by another intelligence
agency. In other words they were trying to pick up these hypnotically controlled double agents that had
been created by the KGB, or whoever.
Then about one quarter of these research projects were just odds and ends of all different psychology,
sociology experiments. A man named R. Gordon Watson who wrote a book called "Soma: The Divine
Mushroom of Immortality" which is about the toadstool that you always see in fairtytales (a red stalk,
and white cap with red flecks on it) ... that's Amenita Muscaria which is a mushroom that was used by
circumpolar shamans in northern Canada, Alaska and Sibera for centuries. So R. Gordon Watson has
called this mushroom "Soma", had an MKULTRA grant through the J.P. Morgan Company to go on an
expedition to Northern Mexico to try and find hallucinogenic mushrooms.
Just to give you an example of how all these things tie into our culture at large, G.H. Estabrook
organized three or four major symposia at Colgate College and he invited all kinds of people to them ...
including Martin Orne. In two of the different sessions organized by Estabrook, Alduous Huxley came
and talked. Alduous Huxley used hallucinogens himself, and wrote the novel, Brave New World, a
science fiction book in which the government controls the people by giving them a mind control drug
called, Soma. All these things are very strangely connected to each other. Not as part of a huge
conspiracy, but because all these people knew each other, talked to each other, influenced each other.
Four of the MKULTRA sub-projects were on children and three of the investigators did not know it was
CIA money, and one did. The research projects themselves were pretty bland, and not very alarming. So
the purpose there, as stated by the CIA, was not really the research as such. MKULTRA sub-project 103
was at a children's international summer camp in Maine. Children from all kinds of different countries
would come and spend weeks through the summer. The purpose of the research was to study how
children communicate and solve problems when they don't share a common language. The purpose of
the CIA funding, which was secret, was that they wanted to establish contact with a whole bunch of
foreign national children, who were as young as eleven, because they might be of potential intelligence
use in the future. In other words, they were just interested in getting an "in" so they could make a list of
these people and start figuring out who might be a good person to recruit to find out who might be a
good CIA person in the future. They were doing this to children.
W.M. You mentioned that multiple personalities are much easier to create in children, and if the military
and CIA's goals were to use multiple personalities for intelligence purposes, is there evidence of
experimentation on children?
C.R. Not experimentation to create multiple personality in children directly, but there are experiments
on children that you would think were unbelievable, impossible, could never have happened ... and if
you heard someone telling you about them, you would think the person was making it up or was
deluded. But actually I have the publications which describe the research. One example is that G.H.
Estabrooks himself did experiments with hypnosis on children at two different orphanages in northern
New York State. So he did create multiple personalities experimentally, he did correspond with J. Edgar
Hoover about using hypnosis and drugs on juvenile offenders, and he did actually do some kind of
research at these two orphanages, but I don't know the exact nature of the experiments, except that it
involved hypnosis in some form.
If you think this is too much to believe ... there is no way the CIA and the military would do experiments
to create multiple personality in children ... it's just too off the wall, too bizarre ... it would be helpful to
know what actually is documented, what actually was done. One of the most revered psychiatrists, who
had her obituary in the American Journal of Psychiatry recently, is a woman named Loretta Bender. She
was a child psychiatrist. Interview any child psychiatrist around the country, and they would speak
highly of her contribution to child psychiatry. In a publication I have on file, as a photocopy, which you
can get at a medical school library, it is not hard to get ... she described giving LSD in dosages of 150
micrograms, which is a big street level dose for a kid, to children aged 5-10, for days, weeks, and
sometimes months in a row. She also described giving hallucinogenic doses of psylocybin, which is the
main compound in magic mushrooms, to kids as young as five years of age. So this network of doctors
whose drugs were supplied either by the CIA or the military, or drug companies funded by them, gave
massive doses of LSD and other hallucinogens to kids 5, 7, 8 years old. They would keep them on full
acid trips up to months in a row.
W.M. And this was documented in the journals at the time?
C.R. Yes, it was published in the regular medical journals. You can just go to the library and photocopy
them.
W.M. And there was no outcry in the profession against this? This sounds like torture.
C.R. No. This was just regarded as psychiatrists doing research and trying to help kids. That's the things
that is most amazing about this. You don't have to have a conspiracy theory, and really conspiracy
theories are interesting but kind of beside the point I think. The thing that is most amazing is that all this
kind of stuff is just straightforward, everyday, regular kind of activity by psychiatrists and
psychologists ... it gets published, it gets presented at conferences ... nobody comments on it or gets
outraged about it ... nobody does anything about it.
Another type of research that is fully documented, if you know the references they can be found in any
medical library, there is a whole body of research on brain electrode implants. The main people who
were doing that were Joly West who was trying to set up a program in Los Angeles to do that, which
was approved by Ronald Reagan, but then got shot down by public protest. The main work was done at
Tulane University in New Orleans by Robert Heath, at Yale by Jose Delgado and at Harvard by a team
that included Frank Irvine and William Sweet. These are the major universities in the western world.
What they basically did was they would stick very fine electrodes into specific areas or centres in a
human's brain, often up to 15, 20, 25 electrodes at one time, and then they would stimulate the electrodes
electrically through the wires, and that would cause the electrode to discharge which would cause that
part of the brain to fire ... Jose Delgado at Yale made a technical advance when he invented a remote
transmitter box, that in the 1960's had a range of up to 100 feet. He could push a button on the box that
would transmit a signal to the electrode which would cause a firing in the brain, and that part of the brain
would get activated.
In the books and papers that are published, Delgado describes also doing this in cats and monkeys. He
refers to these monkeys as "Mechanical Toys" because he could control their body movements, control
their behaviour. An example of what he was doing with monkeys is that he had a group of monkeys,
who were all in the same species, living all in the same cage, and they have a dominant hierarchy (a boss
monkey who runs the whole show, and then they have a whole bunch of submissive males and females).
In the normal set-up, the boss monkey has half the cage to himself, and all the other monkeys get to use
the other half. If they try to come and use his space, then he gets mad, angry or beats them up or
threatens them ... this is just the normal social structure of these monkeys. What he did then was to
implant an electrode in the brain of the boss monkey and when he pushed a certain button on this
transmitter box, the boss monkey became completely submissive. The other monkeys started to figure
this out, and started getting bold, and come in to his part of the cage and rough him up and not pay any
attention to him. The next step in the experiments was to put a lever in the cage where the other
monkeys could get their hands on it, and when they pressed the lever it then transmitted a signal to the
electrode in the boss monkey's brain which would leave him passive. The other monkeys learned this,
and started practicing mind control on the boss monkey by pressing the lever and make him have these
seizures in that part of his brain that made him passive. They learned how to control the boss monkey ...
the article shows a picture of the other monkeys lying all around the cage, and not paying any attention
to the boss monkey.
What he did then, was to do this to human beings, including children. He describes an eleven year old
boy in whose brain he put electrodes. When he pressed the right button on the box, the boy would start
talking about maybe being a girl, wanting to marry a male therapist. So they were using brain electrode
implants to modify the identity, world view and behaviour of children as young as eleven.
Robert Heath, at Tulane University, describes one case in several different publications ... the guy is
referred to as subject B-19, aged 18 or 20. He was homosexual, and they viewed homosexuality as a
medical disease which needed to be treated, so they put brain electrodes in this young man, one of which
went into the area of the brain called the septum, which is an area of one of the pleasure centres in the
brain. They would push the button, cause the electrode to fire, and he would not have a full orgasm but
would be three-quarters of the way toward orgasm, would feel really really good as a result of the button
being pushed. They studied his response, and thought they would get him to watch heterosexual
pornographic films while they were pushing the button. They were trying to switch him over to trying to
be interested in women. Then they did two further things. They set him up with a little box of his own,
where he could push the button himself, and they have a chart over a three hour period showing how
many times he pushed the button himself. In one three hour period, he got up to pushing the button 1500
times to give himself an artificial neuro-orgasm. Then the final step they did in the research was to bring
in a twenty year old prostitute to the medical school, and had her have sex with him, and while they
were having sex, they recorded the brain electrode output, because it was a two-way communication
system. They could signal to the young man's brain, or they could just use the electrodes to monitor the
brain activity that was occurring naturally. They took brain electrode activity recordings from deep
inside his brain while he was having an orgasm with this female prostitute. Then they report that over an
eleven month period as a follow-up, he was mostly heterosexual, with a few "relapses". This is just the
stuff that really went on.
A guy at Harvard, who was part of the Harvard brain electrode team, was William Sweet. He was
testifying at the recent hearings by the committee set up by Bill Clinton to look at all the radiation
experiments. The radiation experiments were all intertwined and overlap with all this mind control stuff.
William Sweet described injecting plutonium into people at Harvard as part of the Atomic Energy
Commission, CIA and military research and he claimed that all the subjects there gave him informed
consent. But one of the subjects named, HP-12, they referred to their experimental subjects as Human
Products with the HP designation, then they go to a series of numbers ... arrived at one of the emergency
departments at one of the hospitals in Boston which was part of the Harvard system, unconscious and
unidentified. He was injected with plutonium, obviously without giving consent, and he died without
regaining consciousness and without being identified. That didn't quite fit with the idea that everybody
gave informed consent. Recently the Clinton government approved a settlement of 4.8 million dollars
for just 12 of these people who were subjects in experiments, and there are probably hundreds and
hundreds of them.
W.M. This was the outcome of the Presidential hearing on radiation experiments?
C.R. Right, and what I think, and what I am going to start lobbying for, should be another hearing on the
mind control side of things ...
W.M. And the mind control were introduced at the end of the hearings on radiation ... can you talk about
that? What evidence was introduced, and what the response was by the U.S. government?
C.R. It was a typical kind of Presidential Commission, which was like the various commissions of
inquiry that go on in Canada, where they receive all kinds of mail and correspondence, and then go all
around the country having hearings where people can testify. They had hearings in Washington and a
number of people testified ... there was the documented material that I am talking about, and then the
memories of individual patients ... the stuff that they claim has gone on, which isn't documented. The
things that I know for sure went on, and that includes in Canada, were the use of hallucinogens,
implantation of these brain electrodes, massive doses of electroshock ... as in ECT treatment where you
are made to have a seizure, and electroshock to different parts of your body as part of behaviour
modification. Sensory deprivation experiments where people were kept in different chambers for long
periods of time until they started hallucinating. Ewen Cameron is the best known CIA contractor. He did
psychic driving where he would make people listen to tape loops for literally hours and hours per day,
with repeated messages, trying to modify their way of thinking and behaviour. So all of these different
elements have been used and totally documented in medical school library-type journals.
One of the most bizarre experiments was done at the University of Minnesota by a man named Amadeo
Morrazzi, who had an Air Force grant for LSD research. Previously he was one of the administrative/
managerial guys at Edgeware Arsenal. Besides just giving people LSD and so on, he made use of what
is known as the Ames Leaf Room. A guy named Ames developed this room, funded by the Office of
Naval Research which was heavily involved in mind control research. The Ames Leaf Room has several
different forms. It can either be a room that is built out of plywood, with all different kinds of angles or
this particular room was cubic, you would fit inside the room ... one side would have no wall at all, it
was just open and that's the side you would be facing away from, and you would be sitting inside, so you
couldn't see anything except the walls and then the entire room was lined with leaves which were glued
to all the walls. So there you are in an environment where you can't exactly see where the corners are
because of all these leaves. When you are in the Ames Leaf Room, you would put on special glasses
called Aniseikonic Lenses which distort all of the angles so the ceiling would be coming down at you,
the floor would be slanting at a weird angle, one wall would be coming in at you, one would be going
the other way. The leaves on one side of the room would be all big and coming at you, and the leaves on
the other side would be kind of flat and receding, and all the different perspectives didn't fit together
properly.
The subject sitting in the Ames Leaf Room has a little control mechanism set for a bar at the end of the
room to try and set it to horizontal. It shows a photograph of a person sitting there, and the bar is at a 40
degree angle. He thinks it is horizontal. The extra twist was that while he had people sitting in the Ames
Leaf Room with these weird goggles on, he gave them LSD. That's all done on Air Force contracts. This
is all weird stuff.
W.M. What, if any, has been the U.S. government's response, particularly to the mind control
experimentation testimony at the Presidential hearings?
C.R. They just kind of acknowledged and really didn't comment, or do much of anything with it.
W.M. So nothing has been done to follow up?
C.R. Nothing systematic that I know of.
W.M. I just want to go back to when you were speaking of brain implants. Have you or other therapists
come across direct evidence of brain implants in clients?
C.R. Nothing really conclusive. There is a kind of conspiracy theory literature that exists about that ...
found on the internet, various publications, showing x-rays, but it is kind of vague usually, and not really
absolutely documented. I don't think that's because it is not going on, it's just that documentation hasn't
been fished out yet. I haven't myself, had a patient come in for treatment and have been able to
document there is an implant in this person's brain.
W.M. So the documented evidence indicates that they are able to use implants for remote purposes, and
also to receive information from a person's brain ... is that correct?
C.R. Joly West, who was the expert witness for Patty Hearst, and was a CIA and military contractor, and
an expert on multiple personality and other things ... he actually mentions multiple personality in his
CIA proposal. He tried to set up this UCLA violence centre that was going to be funded by Ronald
Reagan and Frank Irvine from the Harvard brain electrode implant team was going to come. One of the
things that was going to be done at the UCLA violence project and also at Vaccaville State Prison under
a separate administrative structure, but which got shut down by public protest, was that they were going
to implant brain electrodes in violent sex offenders, and then they were going to two things. They were
going to use the electrodes as a kind of electronic bracelet inside the person's head ... they were going to
monitor the person's location because of transmissions from the implanted electrodes, and once they had
been discharged from prison, they would know if he had gone outside of his restricted area. Also they
would be able to monitor the level of the person's sexual arousal through the brain electrodes ... so if the
guy was outside his restricted area, and starting to get sexually aroused, what they would do is then
transmit a signal to him which would paralyze him. Just make him go catatonic or stop in his tracks and
not move. Then they would notify the police who would go pick him up. There is a book called,
Violence in the Brain, by two of these Harvard brain electrode people, and they discuss maybe using
these kinds of electrodes for people who are rioting ... like the Watts riots that were going on, and so on
at that time. There was a whole scheme about how we were going to control "bad people" in the
population, people that we didn't like.
W.M. This is their own literature and documentation that you are getting this information from ...
C.R. This is all completely published, objective, real, it exists.
W.M. And does it go into detail about how the electronic delivery system would function ... is it by
satellite, by some kind of radio that would receive and send signals?
C.R. I don't know a whole lot about the technical side of it, but it was ... this is back in the sixties and
seventies so they wouldn't have been doing satellite uplinks at that point. It would be some sort of line of
sight radio beam. Another thing that was also documented in a journal called "Defence Electronics" July
1993 issue, there is a one page describing technology that is under development. There is a Russian guy
who specializes in this stuff, Igor Smirnoff ... basically it is technology for beaming different forms of
irradiation at people's heads. There are four or five MKULTRA projects that fiddle around with this kind
of stuff. It can be either sound energy, sound percussion waves, or different types of light and radio
frequencies, all kinds of different types of energy. Igor Smirnoff was brought over in March 1993 to a
meeting in Northern Virginia that was attended by the CIA, the FBI, I think the Defence Intelligence
Agency, I think the National Security Agency and a representative from General Electronics and a
representative from one of the universities who all got together to discuss the possibility of using this
technology on David Koresh, during the Branch Davidian siege. According to the article the reason they
decided not to use this technology on him was the problem of software compatability between the
Russian software and the American hardware. What happened as an upshot of the meeting was that a
firm called Psychotechnologies which is based in Virginia actually contracted with the Russians to
develop this kind of technology for possible American usage. So that is stuff which is going on under
some sort of research and development currently.
In the MKULTRA projects they also describe implanting brain electrodes in various kinds of animals,
dolphins ... using them as delivery systems for biological or chemical weapons. That's actually in the
CIA material. They describe further research to fine tune those kinds of systems that were already in
successful operation.
W.M. Do you have evidence of the DIA in the mind control experiments? Have you been able to get any
evidence in DIA documentation?
C.R. For listeners who don't know what that stands for ... Defence Intelligence Agency ...
W.M. I understand that the DIA is ten times the size of the CIA.
C.R. The Director of the CIA holds only about 10% of the total financial assets of the American
intelligence community ... meaning that the CIA is really a tiny fragment of all the civilian and military
intelligence in the USA. The National Security Agency and the Defence Intelligence Agency are both
quite a bit bigger. The answer to your question is yes and no. The no part is that I don't have direct
documentation of DIA mind control contracts, but it's really kind of beside the point because all of these
intelligence agencies are all interconnected with each other. For instance the CIA had two programs,
MKULTRA and MKNAOMI, and they got federal funds which they then put into MKNAOMI and
MKNAOMI then funded the Special Operations Division at Fort Detrick and Edgeware Arsenal to do
mind control research. And that's the way it is with the radiation experiments too. The Atomic Energy
Commission, Health, Education and Welfare, the CIA ... all kinds of different government agencies were
all interlinked, interconnected.
One of the DIA programs was called Stargate. It was a liaison between the CIA and the DIA. It was just
declassified within the last year. There was a program in December on ABC's Nightline, where Bill
Gates (ed. he means Robert Gates) , who was a former head of the CIA, and one of the guys who was
the CIA person responsible for the liaison between the CIA and the military on Stargate, and one of the
guys who was a Stargate contractor ... all talking about Stargate ... which they admitted ran right up until
at least 1984 and had funding of at least $20 million which is probably just the tip of the iceberg.
Stargate was a remote viewing project. The intelligence agencies, all in an interconnected fashion, spent
millions of dollars on remote viewing which is basically having psychics lie down on a table and try and
see what is going on at some location in a foreign country to gather intelligence information. A book
was just published, by Michael Joseph, which is a British branch of Penguin Books, called "Psychic
Warrior" where a guy describes being one of these remote viewers. A lot of that work was done at the
Stanford Research Institute in Palo Alto, California. I mention that partly because if you think creating
Multiple Personality Disorder is too bizarre and strange to be real ... again, you just have to look at the
LSD, the brain implant research, some of the sensory deprivation, the Ames Leaf Room, using millions
and millions of dollars to pay psychics to spy on other countries while lying on tables in the USA. Once
you have that context, then creating Multiple Personality Disorder is kind of small ...
W.M. I understand that what was driving this was the Cold War, from the information that we have, in
the 1950's ...
C.R. That's true and not true. That's actually a disinformation set-up. The term "brainwashing" was
invented by a man named Edward Hunter who wrote a book about brainwashing in the 1950's that I have
a copy of. He invented that term and described how the American pilots and POW's in the Korean War
who were captured by the Chinese and made to sign false germ warfare confessions and were converted
to being Communists had been brainwashed. The whole idea was that the CIA and other intelligence
agencies had to figure out how that happened. And Joly West, Margaret Singer, Robert Lifton who
testified at the Patty Hearst trial ... they all interviewed these returning prisoners of war from the Korean
War, and became experts on mind control, cult thought reform techniques, and so on. The idea was that,
because the Communists were doing that, we had to figure out how to combat that ... it was mainly
defensive, and reactive to what the Chinese were doing.
But that's not true because G.H. Estabrooks was already doing that in WWII, way before the Korean
War. So actually there was an offensive program of mind control by the OSS and other intelligence
agencies ten years before the Korean War. The whole idea that it got started because of the Cold War is
disinformation. But then it obviously got fuelled and entrenched by the Cold War. And then the question
comes, well the Cold War is over, why do we need that stuff any more? And I think the answer is
several-fold. One is, we in fact do need to have intelligence agencies. The world is not a safe place, and
for us not to be living in Siberia and living in labour camps in Siberia, we've got to protect ourselves
from all kinds of forces in the world, and it's too bad we have to have intelligence agencies ... I have no
beef with the CIA as such, or the existence of an intelligence agency, I think they are essential to
maintain freedom and democracy. But once you've got intelligence agencies, you've got the military and
big budgets ... you've got people who, like any federal bureaucrats, have to justify their budgets and their
programs. You've got people who are already into this, and you've got actual applications of it, so it will
just carry on, I think, indefinitely. The fact that the Cold War is over isn't a major item in this stopping.
W.M. You mentioned in your previous lecture that you don't blame the CIA per se but the psychiatrists
and doctors who are or were involved in this. Do you not feel that the CIA holds some responsibility in
funding and allowing the doctors and psychiatrists to operate?
C.R. Oh absolutely. These people (I mean the victims of all of this) definitely did not give informed
consent, definitely it was unethical, it was harmful, they deserve compensation and the federal
government is on the hook for that. The idea is not that I am soft on the CIA or apologetic for them it's
just that ... I am basically a psychiatrist ... so my number one concern is with all the bizarre, unethical,
destructive conduct by my colleagues, and the medical ethics of it, and getting the medical profession
under control. What I think needs to happen is that it should no longer be allowed that psychiatrists,
psychologists, doctors - have funding from the CIA or the military without the subjects of the research
knowing where the money is coming from, and knowing that it is not really medical research as such,
that it is military intelligence, warfare, psychological warfare, mind control research.
W.M. Some of the literature seems to suggest that Canada was offered up to supply so-called "guinea
pigs" for the U.S. mind control experiments. I am particularly referring to the Allen Memorial and
McGill University in Montreal, with Dr. Ewen Cameron. What do you think Canada's role has been in
military mind control experiments?
C.R. Well, the Canadian Psychiatric Association has put out some disinformation that has been pretty
well "bought" by the Canadian public. That is that Ewen Cameron was just an isolated incident, it
happened a long time ago back in the fifties, yes, he had CIA funding, there were sort of different ethical
standards back then, we wouldn't approve it now, it was just a one time deal but he was such a great man
we can overlook it. Well, that's not true because that research completely violated the ethical standards
of the time, but also it wasn't an isolated incident. Ewen Cameron wasn't the only person at McGill at
that time with CIA funding. Dr. Raymond Prince was funded through MKULTRA subproject 121 to do
anthropological psychiatry research in Nigeria. He didn't know at the time it was CIA money. Donald
Hebb, who at the time was head or chairman of the Department of Psychology there did a lot of sensory
deprivation experiments funded by Canada's Defence Research Board. When the CIA stopped funding
Ewen Cameron's work, Health, Education & Welfare Canada just picked it up. It continued this
incredibly harmful, destructive, unethical research that wiped out people's memories for their whole
lives.
There is a man named Hassan Azima who was a psychiatrist who died in his early forties of cancer, who
was being groomed to be a mind control researcher who was doing LSD and sensory deprivation
experiments at McGill and he was presenting at conferences where all these CIA and military were at.
He was in the loop. James Tyhurst who in 1951 was part of a committee meeting to oversee BLUEBIRD
and ARTICHOKE in Canada, before Ewen Cameron got his money, was also funded by Canada's
Defence Research Board. He did LSD research also at Hollywood Hospital in Vancouver, B.C. And a
doctor named Dr. Ross McLean who was the Director at Hollywood Hospital in Vancouver - attended a
CIA sponsored LSD symposium and described giving LSD to 338 different patients at Hollywood
Hospital. So there was a lot of military LSD flowing into Vancouver, Abram Hoffer and Humphrey
Osmond did a lot of military LSD research in Saskatchewan, and Humphrey Osmond then left and
moved down to the New Jersey Neuropsychiatric Institute in Pennsylvania which is where Carl Pfeiffer
was, which is where the Louis Castille guy was, who was over in the Phillipines and got arrested by the
FBI over there. So there have been a lot of connections with Canadian psychiatry.
A spin off of all of that ... some of the research is funded by the military or CIA or whoever ... and then
gets published and presented at conferences and talked about, and then other civilian psychiatrists who
aren't directly funded by the CIA start doing the same kind of stuff. An example of this was at
Penetanguishene Hospital, which was up on Lake Huron, which was basically a heavy duty facility for
people who were criminally insane or found not guilty by reason of insanity, unfit to stand trial. In the
years about 1968-69 there were four papers published in the Canadian Psychiatric Journal which ... you
can go to any of the medical school libraries in Canada and just pull it off the shelf and read it ... a
psychiatrist named Elliott Barker, who is still alive, was working there. He invented a little room called
The Capsule which was about 8x10 feet. He would put prisoners as young as 15 years old up into their
early 30's in this capsule in groups of either two or up to seven at a time, for periods of days, up to
eleven days at a time ... all naked and off and on LSD. So here were all these violent offenders,
arsonists, murderers, rapists and so on ... and he had them all in this small capsule, all naked on LSD,
kind of doing rap sessions and therapy groups with each other. The room would be monitored by other
prisoners, either through video link, camera link or through a mirror in the ceiling, and other prisoners
were responsible for supplying food and so on. There was one toilet inside the capsule, and they would
be signalled to change one kind of therapy group to another by changing the colour of the light that was
shining into the room. So they were in this kind of group sensory deprivation with different coloured
lights.
The idea was that this would get through their defences, and they would get to the real stuff and do real
therapy. One of the co-authors on one of these papers was an H.M. Mason, who (it says on the bottom of
the paper) was a patient at the Oakridge facility at Penetanguishene on F-Ward. A documentary was
made about it by the CBC ... I have a copy of the video. H.M. Mason is both one of these patients who
are all murderers, arsonists, rapists, and so on ... and he is in this capsule getting LSD, and he is also a
co-author of the paper. Apparently several of the former inmates lived with Elliott Barker post discharge
and this H.M. Mason, as far as I can tell, is the same guy as Hank Mason. Hank Mason is on the website
with Eliott Barker {www.bconnex.net/~cspcc/egostate/kids.htm} for "The Canadian Society for the
Prevention of Cruelty to Children" which is just what it says ... but the President is Elliott Barker. And
this Hank Mason is identified as a founding member of the Society and has a little statement about child
abuse on the website. So it would appear that the Canadian Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to
Children has had executive members who were former violent criminals incarcerated with the criminally
insane, and is run by the psychiatrist who did all this kind of research who published in the Canadian
Psychiatric Association Journal. It goes on and on and on with more stories like this ...
W.M. What is your sense of how many Canadian centres and doctors were involved in
experimentations?
C.R. Well an absolute minimum of five to ten, doctors and centres. For sure there was McGill
University, Montreal and the Allen Memorial Psychiatric Institute; Weybourn, Saskatchewan and the
University of Saskatchewan; Hollywood Hospital in Vancouver; Montreal General Hospital(?); and the
same kind of stuff, apparently not funded by the CIA or military intelligence community was going on at
Penetang at Oakridge.
W.M. Is there any indication that experimentation was going on at military bases themselves?
C.R. Not documented evidence, but there are quite a few accounts by patients that are unverified.
W.M. You mentioned that some of the doctors who were involved in this research were unwitting. What
kind of funding institutes were set up to fund this kind of research of unwitting doctors?
C.R. Well these are called "cut-outs" ... a cut-out is a front funding organization. The three major ones
were the Human Ecology Foundation, the Josiah Macey Jr. Foundation, and the Geschikter Medical
Fund.
W.M. So each of these would be funded from the CIA and then in turn they would fund ...
C.R. Right. And the people who were running these organizations knew it was CIA money, and often,
themselves, got grants from the CIA . One of the guys who was on the Board of the Human Ecology
Foundation who reviewed grants for this foundation, and he himself got MKULTRA funding and top
secret clearance was Carl Rogers. That's kind of amazing, because Carl Rogers was best known for
client centred therapy, which is a kind of humanistic, valuing the kind of spiritual worth of the client
kind of therapy, where you have to have accurate empathy, unconditional positive regard for the person,
and generally empathy. So it's like the stereotype ... most touchy-feely psychotherapy going ... and he
was actually top secret cleared, and funding secret CIA mind control research.
W.M. There are a lot of doctors and some therapists out there that dismiss the idea of Multiple
Personalities, and one of the things that these people are saying is that "it doesn't exist" ... it is actually
temporal lobe epilepsy. What is temporal lobe epilepsy, and how is it similar to MPD?
C.R. Temporal lobe epilepsy is just a form of epilepsy that takes place in the temporal lobe of your
brain, so there is abnormal electrical discharge that causes you to have seizures. A typical temporal lobe
seizure lasts for 30 to 90 seconds, you may become unconscious, or just get a kind of foggy
consciousness, and you will usually fumble at one of your buttons, or smack your lips or turn your body
in a very kind of mechanistic over-and-over scene kind of motion ... and then you pop out of it.
Temporal lobe epilepsy is completely unrelated to Multiple Personality Disorder. That is just a bogus
prejudice ... and there is a bunch of research that myself and others have done that showed the symptom
pictures of temporal lobe epilepsy and Multiple Personality Disorder are completely different from each
other.
W.M. Why would people be making these claims? Why the confusion?
C.R. Because they don't take accurate histories. They are very vague about what they say, and they are
just grasping at straws as a way to discredit Multiple Personality basically. The more serious criticism is
that Multiple Personality is often unwittingly created by bad therapists. Now, that I agree with, and I
have testified about that in court. But in cases where I am testifying for the patient who is suing the
therapist and I am stating as an expert witness that yes this was created by a therapist, and yes, all these
memories are false, and yes, it has done all this harm.
W.M. This is a very complex issue, and one that has been hotly debated in the public ...
C.R. The main thing is that there actually is a whole bunch of science about Multiple Personality and
Dissociation ... it is not just a matter of belief. There is a big literature now ... it has flaws in it and so
on ... but there is actually a whole bunch of science ... it's not just "I believe" or "I don't believe". The
curious twist in the logic is that, actually I think in all of this documentation, the military and CIA have
been creating this Multiple Personality and using it in operations ... it actually proves that Multiple
Personality is real. There are two things ... unless they are just wasting money, they are not going to
bother with the whole exercise unless you actually can create a new identity that actually is hidden
behind a real memory barrier otherwise there would be no point ...
W.M. ... that could be used operationally ...
C.R. Right. So then none of it is actually really, really real ... it's all an illusion in your mind. There isn't
literally another person in there, but nobody in the Multiple Personality field is saying that it is real
anyway, to start with. But you can create an artificial second identity and it can actually do stuff that the
main part of the person doesn't remember ... that has to be true, otherwise there would be no point in
creating it for military use. That proves two things: one, that it is possible to create Multiple Personality
by mistake in bad therapy that mimics a lot of the conditions in military or cult mind control; but also, if
you have a disorder that can be created deliberately, either by the CIA, by a destructive cult, by a
therapist who doesn't really know what they are doing, or even by the person themselves, then it is not
really a big jump to imagine that it could also happen just naturally and spontaneously as a way of
coping with trauma. So the very fact that you can create it artificially, to me indicates that it can be
created artificially or on purpose, and also that it's likely to happen naturally.
W.M. Well, the other question is, how they manage to create it artificially?
C.R. I have a number of cases which describe it quite a lot of detail. There is a lot of information about
how they created "Tanya" in Patty Hearst. There is a lot of detail. There is a very good case from
Denmark, a guy named Talle Hardrup (?) who was in jail in the late 1940's and another prisoner named
Bjorn Neilsen ... a whole lot of mind control and hypnosis techniques that created this amnesic bank
robber who actually went out and robbed a bank, then he went and tried to rob another bank, shot two
people, didn't get away with any money, was captured. And the net outcome of this huge trial, with fifty
witnesses,all kinds of psychiatric testimony, and so on ... the net outcome of it was that Bjorn Neilsen
was found guilty and was sent to jail even though he wasn't physically present at any of the robberies ...
and Talle Hardrup was found not guilty by reasons of insanity ... all the experts specifically said at the
trial that Bjorn Neilsen used hypnosis and other methods to create a split identity in Talle Hardrup.
There are a number of cases which have actually come to trial and there is a lot of detail on them.
W.M. What would the methods be, and what would the links be between artifically creating Multiple
Personalities and childhood trauma?
C.R. The list is several-fold. One is, you have to have good control over the person's life first. You can't
just see them for half an hour or one hour per week, and that's all that is required. In the Talle Hardrup
case, these guys were cellmates and they also worked in the same workshop. They were basically with
each other constantly for about eighteen months. If you can isolate the person from the outside world,
with no contact with people who are going to be critical of what is going on or give a different point of
view ... that's helpful. These things apply to destructive cults and also to the deliberate creation of
multiple personality. You can use all kinds of thought reform techniques, that is, get a person to study
doctrines, do all kinds of meditation exercises, chanting, hypnotic focusing exercises, internal dream
imagery exercises. You get their mind into a trance state and get them to focus on what you want them
to focus on, then you actually use formal hypnosis, some form of drugs, and then you deliberately
instruct them that you want to create a second identity. Then you figure out what is it that this person is
going to be motivated by. So in the Talle Hardrup case, this Bjorn Neilsen guy created a guardian spirit
X, and whenever Bjorn Neilsen was speaking to Talle Hardrup, it was actually talking through Bjorn
Neilsen. He got Talle Hardrup to buy into that because he was into all kinds of new age stuff. Then X
started teaching him the path to enlightenment, so the biggest motivator was that he was going to get to
enlightenment and if he didn't follow the doctrine, didn't follow the rules, didn't follow all of the tests,
and didn't perform adequately, then he would lose X and lose his path to enlightenment. That was the
thing he was most obsessed with. So that was the carrot that kept him going. You have to find some sort
of carrot to keep the person going. Then you can use any different number of behaviour modification
techniques which could be punishing the person if they say what you don't want them to say, rewarding
them if they say what you do want them to say. Basically, you have to get control over the person's
thoughts, over their lives. You have to set up a reward and punishment system and steer them along the
path you want, so they become some kind of robot that will repeat the doctrine you want. If you want to
create the second identity, you can use all kinds of threats or you can use actual trauma and fear. The
trauma, fear, agitation and upset drive the splitting of the mind just naturally. The human mind attempts
to split or dissociate to cope with trauma all the time, whether it be a plane crash, or a natural disaster, or
sexual assault in adulthood.
The other ingredient with children is that their minds just seem to be more susceptible to this kind of
splitting process. A child tends to do that more naturally.
W.M. Are you familiar with Jennifer Freyd's work, with her theory of "betrayal trauma" which deals
with child abuse?
C.R. Actually, I wasn't going into this all here, but the main change in my thinking in terms of how I
have been working with these people clinically over the last three years, has been shifting much more
toward the "betrayal trauma" type way of looking at things ... that's not really directly related to mind
control, but ... I like her theory a lot. I agree with it.
For the listeners who don't know, Jennifer Freyd is the daughter of Pamela and Peter Freyd ... Pamela
Freyd is the Executive Director of the False Memory Syndrome Foundation -- they take the position that
Multiple Personality Disorder is pretty bogus and all these memories that people are recovering in
therapy are all false and are the result, basically, of mind control techniques by bad therapists. The
Scientific Advisory Board of the FMSF which is a whole bunch of academics and experts who advise
the Foundation and sort of speak on behalf of it ... includes Martin Orne and Joly West who had CIA top
secret clearance; Harold Leif who is the personal psychiatrist to the Freyds also was a co-author with
Robert Heath who did the brain electrode research at Tulane which was funded by the various branches
of the military and CIA. About five of Martin Orne's co-authors or people that he thanks in publications
of his going back into the 50's in different mind control research that he did are also on the Board.
Margaret Singer who interviewed the Korean prisoners of war who had top secret clearance through the
military to do that work is also on the Board. So there is quite a connection and overlap between the
FMSF people (not all of them but a group of them) and all this military mind control research.
W.M. Have you had any experience with the FMSF? I understand they have been fairly aggressive in
intimidating therapists throughout North America.
C.R. Well, I have had a bit of experience with the FMSF. I belong to the FMSF. I get their newsletter.
I've been talked about, and have written in their newsletter. I set up a workshop in Houston where I
spoke for a day and a half and Pamela Freyd, who is the Executive Director spoke for half a day. I have
set up about five or six workshops with Elizabeth Loftus who is one of the leading members of their
Advisory Board. I spoke at a meeting that Stephen Ceci was at ... and he spoke after me ... he
commented very favourably on my talk. He is on their Advisory Board. So I've got a lot of contacts with
some of these people which I consider to be very friendly, and I admire their work. I disagree with some
of the things a little bit, but by and large, I agree with probably over half of what the majority of the
people on the FMSF Advisory Board say. As I mentioned earlier, I have testified in court, basically
much the same as any of those people would ... that here's an example of bad therapy which has created
multiple personality out of nowhere and caused a lot of damage to a person and their family.
In the FMSF "camp", not the organization itself, but in a sort of "camp" as it were, some real extremists
have gone way overboard and very inflammatory in the way they talk and everything is all black and
white ... the whole multiple personality field is totally bad and all the memories are completely false, so
there's people in that camp who go way overboard. My view on them is that if you set aside some of the
really political posturing and the most rabid politics that come out, and you just listen to the most basic
message ... I agree with them. I think it has been incredibly helpful to the field ... not just Dissociative
Disorders field, or sexual trauma therapists, but the entire mental health field. In the 1980's, there was
almost zero teaching on how error-prone memory is, and almost no teaching at all about how to think
about it, what to do about it, what guidelines we need. All these guidelines about false memories and
memory not being reliable really only came out with the professional organization starting in 1994 and
the FMSF spearheaded that, so a lot of the work they have done has been incredibly helpful and I agree
with it. It is simply a fact that memory is unreliable. It's just when things get really polarized, and
everyone is really insulting everyone else, it turns into a big war and it becomes ridiculous ...
W.M. It seems that the survivors of abuse are again re-victimized by this type of argument where the
focus seems to be proving that a memory is false or not, instead of actually finding out whether abuse
happened or not ...
C.R. It gets all politicized ... everybody gets very hot under the collar ... very defensive about it. Again
in the FMSF, in the membership, I am sure that there are a whole bunch of people who are actually
falsely accused. But I am sure there are also a whole bunch of people who are accurately accused, and
are just trying to run a little scam and say it's false memories. That needs to be set aside if you are trying
to look at it scientifically ... what are the issues about memory, and what is the best way to do therapy,
and how do you have to balance things to have therapy that is more beneficial than harmful. If people
would get off all of the ugly politics and have more of a rational, calm scientific discussion, it would be
much better. Then you wouldn't hear the therapists saying the FMSF people are all just pedophiles and
you wouldn't the FMSF people saying the therapists are all insane.
W.M. In your opinion, how has the false memory debate affected therapy resources available for
survivors in a general sense?
C.R. It has affected it negatively ... because a lot of the therapists have become really paranoid and there
is a lot of agitation in the insurance companies and the managed care companies in the USA about this
kind of therapy now. The idea that most of the memories are false is really just a kind of basic stance of
psychiatry throughout the entire 20th century really ... it is nothing new.
W.M. How do you feel the debate has affected the way therapists deal with their clients?
C.R. Well, I think it has been beneficial and harmful at the same time. It has been beneficial because
therapists have had to get their acts together a little bit, and be more aware that memory is extremely
vague and unreliable, and you can't just take everything at face value. I have written at great length
about how to strategically plan therapy so that if you do the same thing, no matter what percentage of
the memory is true or false ... most of the time you don't know for a fact ... so it has been very helpful in
that way. But it has been very harmful in that it has just given an excuse to all kinds of people who just
don't want to deal with abuse anyway to say "ah, it's all false memory" and it has made the therapists
defensive and it has taken a lot of time and energy away from treatment onto worrying about whether
you are going to get sued or not. But there are sort of opposite sides of the same coin. You can't have
therapists finally getting the message that they have to be more careful without also having therapists
who are more paranoid about being accused.
W.M. For the benefit of other therapists who might be listening, is there a way to recognize signs of
possible mind control experimentation? Are there signs that come up again and again in survivor
accounts?
C.R. You mean actual military and intelligence mind control? Or ... because mind control can be done
informally and unwittingly by just a pedophile father at home ... or it can be done by any one of the
known destructive cults or it can be done as part of a military research project. It depends on which level
you are talking about.
W.M. I am speaking specifically of government funded military mind control experiments ...
C.R. No. There is no kind of ... if a person comes in with a sore left elbow, that's a sure sign. There's no
kind of sign or symptom like that that will automatically clue you off ... but there is probably going to be
some sort of Dissociative Disorder, and it's not so much that you go after it ... as the person starts giving
you memories of ... it wasn't some sort of stereotyped satanic type thing in the woods ... they actually
start telling you something that sounds like medical research of some kind, experiments of some kind ...
it is either at a university or a hospital or a military base. Really, the bad plan is to start specifically
asking questions ... you have to wait for the person to start describing that kind of stuff and if they
describe that kind of stuff, you just follow normal kind of therapy procedures where you just say, can
you tell me a little more about that, or I don't quite understand this, or could you clarify that, or what
does that mean to you? Why is that important to you? How is that affecting you now? How does that tie
into the problems we are working on now? You really just handle it using basic, sensible therapy
techniques. There is not a special set of strategies or techniques for mind control as such ... these people
are basically human beings who have been hurt and have problems. You need nbto use the same basic
therapy you would use otherwise.
My personal conclusion is that probably the majority, a vast majority of satanic abuse memories that I
have heard which involve hundreds and hundreds of babies being sacrificed ... the vast majority of that
can't actually be real. Some of it could be. But the techniques and strategies that I use in therapy with
people with satanic ritual abuse memories are pretty much identical, the same strategies with people who
don't have those kinds of memories. The same applies to the military mind control people the way I go at
it. I use the same basic strategies, principles and techniques. I don't really focus on the memories as the
main problem.
W.M. In your opinion, do you think there are any links between the accounts of ritual abuse and mind
control experimentation?
C.R. Nothing documented. The link is in the mind control experts -- the people who are contractors for
the CIA and the military who understand the mind control techniques, therefore the military wants to tap
into their expertise. They also tend to be people who are experts on mind control techniques and
destructive cults. But a direct connection between the cults and the military ... the only book I know
about that is a book called "Was Jonestown a CIA Medical Experiment?" written by a man named
Michael Myers, published by the Edwin Mellon Press. He presents a lot of solid documentation that is
not quite 100% conclusive, that the CIA was heavily involved in Jonestown.
W.M. You went into a fair bit of detail about that in your lecture that we recently aired ...
C.R. Just to give a little smattering of the kinds of things -- one example is that the People's Temple run
by Jim Jones, was based in Ukiah, California which is north of San Francisco, and then they moved
down to the jungle in British Guyana. Before I read this book I never really thought about how did they
go about choosing that site? It turns out that that site in the middle of the jungle in British Guyana,
immediately before Jim Jones moved down there, it was the site of the CIA Shalom Project which was a
program for black, ex Green Beret military people to train mercenaries for Angola, which obviously
couldn't just be a coincidence. Then there is just a wealth of other detail connecting all kinds of things
in ...
W.M. In your sense, who do you think is behind all of this?
C.R. I am not really much of a conspirary theorist ... I just think that it boils down to the typical normal
stuff that controls the rest of the world so it's got to do with the military, and the government, and banks,
and helicopter sales, and spying ... so it's no different from who runs radar, or who runs jets, or who runs
anything else ... a lot of it is just military contracting and government, big business ... I don't personally
subscribe to a special conspiracy theory like ... I don't think there is one ... from the evidence I see ... I
don't think there is any one little group of people who meet in some room in the Pentagon who are
pulling all the strings on all of this. I think it is much like the Federal government. It all kinds of little
groups working at cross purposes and there is no one grand master designer kind of thing.
W.M. The old boys' network ...
C.R. Yeah. The old boys' network is the way I describe it. One reason I think of it this way is, there
doesn't have to be one huge ... obviously there is a conspiracy in a sense in that there is secret funding of
mind control research, and there are files that are kept from the public ... but in terms of the stuff that is
actually documented ... there didn't have to be that huge of a conspiracy because they just went ahead
and published it in the medical literature anyway. The conspiracy is really the sort of old boys' network,
everybody just sort of looks the other way, everybody just knows they are not supposed to comment on
it kind of conspiracy. It's not that anybody has to send a memo to every psychiatrist in North America
saying "keep this secret" ... everybody kind of looks the other way, steers around it, doesn't rock the
boat, doesn't make waves.
W.M. I've just got a couple of more questions. I am wondering how a person undergoes the healing
process ... who has been traumatized as a child, or has participated in the mind control experimentation.
What is the process of healing?
C.R. Some people are probably too damaged to ever heal. Nobody should claim that they know how to
help everybody. Or some people are damaged and they have the ability to heal, but I am not just going to
describe how that should be done. They need to go to somebody else. But the people we work with,
Multiple Personality, who all describe really traumatic childhoods, we don't really focus on the
memories as such. What we deal with is how these different personalities, working together as a sort of
inner family, are getting along with each other, or mostly not getting along with each other. We try and
get them to have more open communication in cooperation with each other. Have more of a problem-
solving, strategizing kind of approach to life instead of all this conflict and fighting and amnesia. And
then we work on building up more healthy, more flexible ways of coping with life ... and that's just in a
nutshell. To describe it in detail ... that's why my book is 400 pages long. It takes quite a while.
W.M. You mentioned, particularly in tests that you have done, a lot were able to integrate these
personalities into a kind of a whole. Is that really the goal of the healing process?
C.R. Well, it's the goal in one sense, to be ... we are just talking about people with Multiple
Personalities. The vast majority of people who were involved in mind control experiments, and the vast
majority of people who were abused as children don't have Multiple Personality. I just specialize in that
little sub-group, a little island in this whole sea of trauma ... the reason integration is a goal for them is
basically it is normal and desirable to be sort of an integrated human being. If you had a reasonably
normal, healthy, happy childhood, adolescence and you have a reasonably happy, healthy, normal
adulthood ... you are going to be integrated. You are not going to have Multiple Personalities. But the
other reason is because it works better. It's not that integration is this big goal in and of itself, it's just
that integration is a way to get to the goal of far, far, far less symptoms ... much more happy, settled state
internally, much better interpersonal relationships, much better functioning in the workplace, and a huge
reduction in the amount of mental health care resources you need.
W.M. You mentioned that you are about to release a book about mind control. What specifically will the
book deal with, and when will it be published?
C.R. I am just finished the second draft of the third draft of the book ... so it's been through three
complete changes. And now the final one, I've done a pretty extensive re-write of it and I've got a little
bit more information that I am just sort of digesting and waiting to come in from one of the
universities ... that I got some information from ... and I will probably go at it one more time
stylistically, and then we will see if we can get a publisher to bite on it. So I am hoping that it will be out
before the end of 1997.
W.M. What specifically are you dealing with in the book?
C.R. Basically everything we have been talking about, and the main points are going to be that the US
military and the CIA have been creating experimental multiple personalities, that's an established fact
because of the documentation. The extent that those people were used in operations is still not fully
known. The fact that you can create artificial multiple personalities to me proves both that it can be
created artificially and also that it is likely to arise spontaneously, and I go into that in detail. All this
other crazy mind control research ... I use that to set the context to make it believable that multiple
personality was created by the military ... because if you just hear that out of nowhere, it just seems too
much to be believed. But when you have that whole context then you realize that really it just fits in
nicely. Then the other part is to try and stimulate either a presidential commission or some sort of public
enquiry into this and get the medical ethics of it really tightened up to make sure this stuff is not
ongoing. And get some recognition and compensation for the victims. That's basically the gist of the
book.
W.M. Do you have evidence of experimental brain surgery implants being done on epilepsy patients?
C.R. Well, there are two answers to that question. One is that all this documented brain electrode
implant research that I have described ... some of those patients actually had epilepsy, and in a whole
bunch of them epilepsy was kind of a phony rationale for putting electrodes in. So when you read that
literature, a lot of the time they will describe the patient as having epilepsy, and then sometimes they
actually put brain electrodes in just for either psychiatric reasons which were basically bogus reasons, or
purely experimental reasons. But epilepsy is one of the rationales for putting brain electrodes in. That is
totally documented.
W.M. And would these people be informed that they were to receive brain implants?
C.R. Yeah, but the explanation for why that was scientifically justified and the informed consent
procedure was really iffy ...
W.M. What literature is available on this subject?
C.R. There is a book called "Violence and the Brain" by Vernon H. Mark and Frank R. Ervin (Sweet?),
1970-72, it is a little bit hard to get. Or if you go into ... part of the problem is that you can't do
computerized medical searches prior to 1966 ... but if you go to the medical literature in the period 1955-
1970 and you look for publications by Robert Heath, Tulane University or Jose Delgado at Yale you will
find those scattered around the medical literature. Or you just do literature searches on brain electrode
implants. Then there is a huge literature on LSD. It's just a matter of going to the library and really
searching around. Or, in the book, I will reference a lot of it.
W.M. Well, I would like to thank you very much Dr. Colin Ross for joining us on CKLN. It has been
very illuminating talking to you, and I wish you all the best with your new book.
C.R. My pleasure, and thanks for doing the series on this ...

Mind Control Survivors' Testimony at the
Human Radiation Experiments Hearings
Valerie Wolf -- Claudia Mullen -- Christine deNicola
From a Series of Broadcasts aired in 1997 on CKLN-FM 88.1 in Toronto
Contents
Wayne Morris - Introduction
Claudia Mullen - On Testifying
The Testimony
Valerie Wolf
Chris deNicola
Claudia Mullen
Testimony: Questions
Wayne Morris - Closing Comments
Wayne Morris - Introduction

Wayne Morris:
Good morning and welcome to the International Connection once again. This is a continuation of a radio
series on mind control that we are bringing you here. We heard, for the last five weeks, a lecture and
interview by Dr. Colin Ross, detailing the history of CIA mind control experimental programs that have
been documented in material obtained under the Freedom of Information Act. What we are going to hear
today is the mind control testimony that was introduced into the Presidential Advisory Committee on
Human Radiation Experiments on March 15, 1995. President Clinton has apologized and compensated
some of the victims of the radiation experiments. At the end of the hearing however, Valerie Wolf,
Claudia Mullen and Christine deNicola gave their testimony about mind control experiments and linked
in with the radiation experiments. We are going to hear the testimony that was given to the Advisory
Committee in the second half of the show. In the first half, we are going to hear Claudia Mullen talk
about the experience of giving testimony at the Presidential hearings. Claudia is a survivor of CIA mind
control experimentation for many years, and got introduced to this through Tulane University, and we
heard Colin Ross talk about Tulane's involvement in the mind control programs in previous weeks'
broadcasts here.
It is extremely brave of these women to come forward, and they really, in effect, broke the silence for
many survivors. You are listening to 88.l, CKLN.
Contents
Claudia Mullen - On Testifying

(from a presentation at the final Believe the Children conference in Chicago, April, 1997)
But when she leaves the room, her life is never the same again because she has been asked to give
testimony in front of a Presidential Committee on Radiation, and ... that's pretty much what I wanted to
tell you all ... was what the experience was like and I have some clips from the testimony to show you
and then ... you all got hand-outs, but they are not complete, but anyhow. She walks in the room and
there are obviously a lot of important people there but there are also a lot of just everyday people ...
people of all ages. The only people that are missing are children. There aren't any children there, but it's
a good thing, because it's scary, what she hears from the people who get up ahead of her to tell their
stories. It is pretty heart-wrenching and she forgets to be nervous for a while because they just move her
so much. But then finally she hears her name, she realizes "oh, I have to give testimony", so she goes up
and she gives her testimony and they ask her questions, and then when she leaves the room ... all of a
sudden everybody knows her name now, and people just start storming all over her and telling her how
brave she is and she feels scared to death and she can't figure out why everybody thinks she is so
brave ... but she got up and told her story about the Monster Mom, and about the Magister, and about the
camp, and about the cabins, the Deep Creek Lodge place, and I forgot to tell you how she remembered.
Because remember how I said that she always ... I always forgot everything. As soon as I got home, I
would forget what had happened and that went on, when I went away to college, I still had no memory
of it. And then in October of 1992 something happened to me, completely unrelated, it had nothing to do
with any of this ... just another crime in a series of a lot of crimes actually ... a man comes into her home,
a man that she knows, and he assaults her, he rapes her, and he beats her for hours and she thinks it is the
worse thing that has ever happened to her, but somehow it is really familiar to her. After that day, all of
a sudden she starts getting all of these horrible nightmares and memories and flashbacks. She didn't even
know what a flashback was then. Flashbacks start coming and it pretty much triggered all the memories
that started coming back. And so from the time she goes to Washington, she's only about half way
through doing the memories so it is really kind of hard when she gets up to talk about it because she has
to control, not to go into a flashback when she is talking about it. But it turns out okay and after that, I
have to say why she is never the same again.
From then on there was no going back. Once I did it, I had to keep talking because if you stop talking,
that's when they get you. There are a lot of, to be honest there are a lot of good things and there are some
bad parts about testifying. The good part is that she got to tell her story and people believed her. She was
asked to tell her story and because ... when the memories started coming back she went into treatment
and into therapy ... her imaginary friends woke up, after all these years, they woke up again, and they
came out and they would start writing furiously ... I mean pages ... until it became into a book ... about
this big. All of the memories, all of the people, all the places that she went, what the people's titles were,
who they worked for, how much money they got, anything that they talked about ... whole
conversations. And she sent off the information to various experts across the country who tried to verify
as much as they could, and lo and behold, there was a lot of stuff in there that wasn't written down
anywhere that hadn't been released yet, but they think it is in the CIA files but ...
It's good that she got up to tell her story, and every time she tells her story it's a little more healing, it's
therapeutic. It also gives other people a chance to tell their stories, because it kind of starts something
going ... because ever since that day people have started to talk about what happened, and she has met so
many other children that are now grown-up and they are starting to remember and she knows she is not
alone anymore. Because all those years, even though she did remember a lot, she was really alone, and
she thought "special" meant alone or "odd" and I guess you could say the bad part, like I said once you
testify, it becomes public record and the good part is you can't be sued because as long as you are telling
the truth ... and that's what I did ... you are making accusations against people but they can't sue you
because you are testifying, and it's the truth, and you can talk about the same people as much as you
want and they can't ever sue you. That's one thing I didn't have to worry about, being sued.
I have been threatened and harassed, assaulted since it happened and I wouldn't be telling the truth if I
said everything was just great since then because there have been some bad times, but would I do it all
over again knowing what would happen? I wouldn't change a thing, I would still do it in a second. I
would do it after I had all my memories back ... that's the only thing I would change. Another reason that
it would have been better if I had recalled all my memories before I testified was that I realized they
used a lot of time distortion along with the drugs and the electricity and the trauma, they used hypnosis
and they could distort time and it somehow gets to confuse people ... they thought if there is a slight
chance that she is going to remember, at least she will get things all confused. Plus they throw in a few
things like ceremonies and things like that just so you will sound really crazy if you ever start to
remember.
And so my testimony would have been a little more accurate ... there's a few distortions in there, a few ...
like mixing people's names with the wrong face ... but once I got all my memories then I remembered
exactly, but you can't change the testimony. Once it is given, it is given. I thought maybe you all would
like to see a little clip from it. I didn't bring my testimony because, as you can probably imagine, I don't
like seeing myself on film. I don't mind having my picture taken, but I really can't stand watching myself
on film and I guess you know why. I mainly wanted to give you an idea of what it looks like and ...
because hopefully, in the near future, there will be a Commission for Victims of Mind Control. This
focused on radiation, and we were allowed to testify because ... and there were four of us who were
victims of mind control ... but they used radiation. I was, I guess one of the lucky ones, because they
didn't use a lot of radiation with me. They took a lot of x-rays because I got hurt a lot, but with some
mind control victims, they used a lot of radiation and that's how we got to testify in front of a Radiation
Commission.
But hopefully, that's what we are trying to do ... that 's what the whole movement is about. What we got
started is we are trying to get a Committee to investigate CIA files that have to do with mind control. So
I will show you a little bit of what it was like, and the kinds of questions they ask you because that's
what you have to be prepared for. They only gave us two and a half weeks to prepare ... I went with my
therapist and one other girl from New Orleans and then another person came from New Mexico to
testify, and then there were six other people, but they were testifying strictly about radiation. We were
able to submit as much material as we wanted ahead of time but you could only talk for five minutes ...
but they gave us a bit longer. We were told you had to put everything down and say it within five
minutes ... and then leave time for questions. Since they did ask you questions. The reasons I left the
questions in is that was the tough part. The questions. I mean it's not that they were hard to answer, it
just kind of put you on the spot, you know, and not knowing exactly what they were going to ask you.
So this will give you a good idea of what kind of things they might ask, what it might be like. In the
handouts, I just wanted to mention, the reason I didn't read, or tell you what was in my testimony, I put
in a little bit about the Advisory Committee and that's the agenda for the day we were testifying, and a
Memorandum from the Vice President about the research. Then my therapist, who talked before I did,
showed how there was a link between mind control and radiation and how the memories had started to
come back and all the therapists who she had been talking to all over the country ... their clients were
saying the same thing. Not exactly the same thing, but it was so similar it was uncanny. And this is my
statement, but I actually submitted a lot more material than that ... names, places, dates, anything I could
remember.
This is in October ... we finally got the final report of the Advisory Committee. This is what ... it's two
pages. Actually nobody even called us and told us they came out with any recommendations. I saw it on
the internet. Somebody sent it to me by e-mail. You've got to remember that these Committees last about
a year, they meet once a month, in different parts of the country so different members of the public can
come talk. They reach every area of the country. So this had been going on ... we were at the very end of
it. It had been going on since March or April of 1994. So this is what the recommendations were ... they
listened to us, like I said, because they recommended that all records of the CIA bearing on programs of
secret human research such as MKULTRA ... that's all the names of the projects that I could
remember ... they recommended that they be declassified. Of course that hasn't happened yet. There are
some steps here to advocate for investigating, informing, advocacy groups like Lynne and Blanche's
group that they started ACHES-MC ... they can correct me if I am wrong but this is kind of because we
put our foot in the door and testified ... they started ACHES-MC (Advocacy Committee for Human
Experimentat Survivors - Mind Control). And also if you would like to read the testimony itself ... there
is a book by Jon Rapaport called "US Government Mind Control Experiments on Children: They Want
to Know". In the back of the room there are some fliers on how you can order that.
The documentation ... they kept asking us about "where is documentation?" For one thing, my memories
are considered documentation. All the people I remembered, places, project names, numbers, medical
records, psychiatric records, my therapist's records. School records ... we actually went back and verified
that I did miss school at these times that I remembered. In grade school I probably missed a third of
every year and yet I was never held back, I don't know why. Family records are considered
documentation ... you can go back and talk to relatives who remember you were gone at this period of
time. Also remember seeing your burns, or being treated at Tulane ... my sister remembers that. Pictures
from childhood. My mother kept scrapbooks. She usually had two scrapbooks a year and then except for
two Christmases, there are no Christmas pictures with me in it. There is my sister, my mother, my father,
and I am not in any of them, because I wasn't there. And there are pictures of my sister's birthdays, but
none for me. Notes, cards, or anything from the perpetrators. I actually did ... I got a Christmas card
from Uncle Otto. Remember Uncle Otto from ............??? I don't know if he really wrote it or not. They
might have just done it to make me feel like ... I don't know. Anyhow I got a Christmas card from him
and the Magister gave it to me and said Uncle Otto had sent it. He also gave me a doll. He sent me a doll
as a Christmas present. They took it away from me. Any material, harassment material, I got quite a bit
of this ... and I will probably will when I go home ... I get it in the mail. I get it at the house and I have
the police come every time ... it's written on my house, on my car, fence. It's been written mostly in red
paint ... sometimes animal blood or gore. They are like threats, or you know ... it's just harassment.
Things like "Die", "Shut Up", or whatever. And so every time that happens I have to have the police
come out and take pictures so it is documented. I keep everything that I get in the mail. I have caller ID
and call tracer ... and sometimes I will get phone calls and they will say words that are supposed to
trigger me and remind me of things that happened. They will call me Chrystal, which was my name.
Also, you can order your phone records. Every month, along with my bill, I get every phone call that
came into my house ... it is written down, where it's from. Military records. How the memories match
the projects and experiments. The similarity of stories between people. Also it is a good idea, but don't
ever do this alone, to go back to the sites if they are still there. You would be surprised. A lot of the
buildings are still there, Tulane University is still there ... it's still going strong. Go back there and take
pictures of places you were in ... but you don't go alone. I went with my therapist because I was afraid of
going into flashback. And of course, the CIA files, if you can get them declassified. And there might be
information that you know that isn't written or validated anywhere, in any book.
Everybody has to decide for themselves, if they want to start talking. But I think you can see how it is
important and it helps the healing process. It puts you in touch with people that you never thought you
would meet. You get to know people who went through the same thing you did ... and that's validation
for yourself. That's just as important ... you have to decide if the good outweighs the bad. Like I said, I
would do it again in a minute. Somebody once said, great spirits have always encountered violent
opposition from mediocre minds ... Albert Einstein said that. I like that.
Contents
The Testimony

Wayne Morris:
We are next going to hear that testimony in Washington (March, 1995). First you will hear Valerie
Wolf, Claudia Mullen's and Chris deNicola's therapist; then Chris deNicola, then Claudia Mullen.

...Hearting Spokeperson:
Forgive me if I am not pronouncing these names correctly ... we have Ms. Chris Denicola, Ms. Valerie
Wolf, and Ms. Claudia Mullen. Are you all of New Orleans?
CVC:
Yes.
HS:
Thank you for making the effort to come up and speak to us.
Contents

Valerie Wolf
I am going to start. My name is Valerie Wolf. In listening to the testimony today, it all sounds really
familiar. I am here to talk about a possible link between radiation and mind control experimentation that
began in the late 1940's. The main reason that mind control research is being mentioned is because
people are alleging that they were exposed as children to mind control, radiation, and chemical
experimentation which were administered by the same doctors who were known to be involved in
conducting both radiation and mind control research. Written documentation has been provided
revealing the names of people, and the names of research projects in statements from people across the
country. It is also important to understand mind control techniques and follow-ups into adulthood may
have been used to intimidate particular research subjects into not talking about their victimization in
government research. As a therapist for the past twenty-two years, I have specialized in treating victims
and perpetrators of trauma, and their families. When word got out that I was appearing at this hearing,
nearly forty therapists across the country (and I had about a week and a half to prepare) contacted me to
talk about clients who had reported being subjected to radiation and mind control experiments. The
consistency of people's stories about the purpose of the mind control and pain induction techniques, such
as electric shock, use of hallucinogens, sensory deprivation, hypnosis, dislocation of limbs, and sexual
abuse is remarkable.
There is almost nothing published on this aspect of mind control abuse with children, and these clients
come from all over the country having had no contact with each other. What was startling was that many
of these therapists were reporting that clients were also physically ill, with auto-immune problems,
thyroid problems, multiple sclerosis, and other muscle and connective tissue diseases as well as
mysterious ailments for which a diagnosis cannot be found. Plus somatization disorder is commonly
found in these clients. Many of the clients who have been involved in human experimentation with the
government, have multiple medically-documented physical ailments and I was really shocked today to
hear one of the speakers talk about the cysts and the teeth breaking off because I have a client that that is
happening to. Many of the people are afraid to tell their doctors their histories as mind control subjects
for fear of being considered to be crazy. These clients have named same of the same people; particularly
Dr. Greene, who was associated with client reports of childhood induction of pain, childhood mind
control techniques, and childhood sexual abuse. One of my clients who had seen him with a name tag,
identified him as Dr. L. Wilson Greene. A person with this same name was the Scientific Director of the
Chemical and Radiological Laboratories at the Army Chemical Centre, and that he was engaged in
doing research for the army and other intelligence agencies. Other names that have come to light are Dr.
Sidney Gottlieb, Dr. Martin Orne (who it is reported were also involved in radiation research). It needs
to be made clear that people have remembered these names and events spontaneously, with free recall,
and without the use of any extraordinary retrieval techniques such as hypnosis. As much as possible, we
have tried to verify the memories with family members, records, and experts in the field. Many attempts
have been made through Freedom of Information filings to gain access to the mind control research
documentation. Requests have generally been slowed down, or denied; although some information has
been obtained. Which suggests that at least some of the information supplied by these clients is true. It is
important that we obtain all of the information contained in CIA and military files to verify or deny our
clients' memories. Although many of the files for MKULTRA may have been destroyed, whatever is
left, along with the files for other projects, such as BLUEBIRD and ARTICHOKE to name only two,
contain valuable information.
Furthermore, if, as the evidence suggests, some of these people were used in radiation experiments, there
might be information in the mind control experiment files on radiation experiments. We need this
information to help in the rehabilitation and treatment of many people who have severe psychological
and medical problems which interfere with their social, emotional and financial well-being. Finally, I
urge you to recommend an investigation into these matters. Although there was a Commission on Mind
Control, it did not include experiments on children, because most of them were too young, or still
involved in research in the late 1970's to come forward. The only way to end the harassment and
suffering of these people is to make public what has happened to them in the mind control experiments.
Please recommend that there be an investigation and that the files be opened on the mind control
experiments as they related to children. Thank you.
Contents

Chris deNicola
Good afternoon. I am Chris deNicola, born July 1952, rendering me thirty-two years of age. I was a
subject in radiation, as well as mind control and drug experiments performed by a man I knew as Dr.
Greene. My parents were divorced around 1966 and Donald Richard Ebner, my natural father, was
involved with Dr. Greene in the experiments. I was a subject in 1966 to 1976. Dr. Greene performed
radiation experiments on me in 1970 focusing on my neck, throat and chest. 1972 focusing on my chest,
and focusing on my uterus in 1975. Each time I became dizzy, nauseous and threw up. All these
experiments were performed on me in conjunction with mind control techniques and drugs in Tucson,
Arizona. Dr. Greene was using me mostly as a mind control subject from 1966 to 1973. His objective
was to gain control of my mind and train me to be a spy assassin. The first significant memory took
place at Kansas City University in 1966. Don Ebner took me there by plane when my mom was out of
town. I was in what looked like a laboratory and there seemed to be other children. I was strapped down,
naked, spread-eagled on a table on my back. Dr. Greene had electrodes on my body, including my head.
He used what looked like an overhead projector and repeatedly said he was burning different images
into my brain while a red light flashed aimed at my forehead. In between each sequence, he used
electroshock on my body and told me to go deeper and deeper, deeper. While repeating each image,
would go deeper into my brain and I would do whatever he told me to do. I felt drugged because he had
given me a shot before he started the procedure. When it was over, he gave me another shot. The next
thing I remember I was with my grandparents again in Tucson, Arizona. I was four years old.
You can see from this experiment that Dr. Greene used trauma, drugs, posthypnotic suggestion and more
trauma in an effort to gain total control over my mind. He used me in radiation experiments both for the
purposes of determining the effects of radiation on various parts of my body and to terrorize me as an
additional trauma in the mind control experiments. The rest of the experiments took place in Tucson,
Arizona out in the desert. I was taught how to pick locks, be secretive, use my photographic memory and
a technique to withhold information by repeating numbers to myself. Dr. Greene moved on to wanting
me to kill dolls that looked like real children. I stabbed a doll with a spear once after being severely
traumatized, but the next time I refused. He used many pain induction techniques, but as I got older, I
resisted more and more.
He often tied me down in a cage which was near his office. Between 1972 and 1976 he and his assistants
were sometimes careless and left the cage unlocked. Whenever physically possible I snuck into his
office and found files and memos addressed to CIA and military personnel. Included in these files were
projects, sub-projects and experiment names with some code numbers about radiation and mind control
experiments which I have submitted in the written documentation. I was caught twice and Dr. Green
ruthlessly used electroshock, drugs, spun me on a table, put shocks on my stomach and my back,
dislocated my joints, and used hypnotic techniques to make me feel crazy and suicidal.
Because of my rebellion and growing lack of cooperation, they gave up on me as a spy assassin.
Consequently during the last two years, 1974-76, Dr. Greene used various mind control techniques to
reverse the spy assassin messages, to self destruct and death messages. His purpose? He wanted me
dead, and I struggled to stay alive all of my adult life. I believe it is by the grace of God that I am still
alive. These horrible experiments have profoundly affected my life. I developed Multiple Personality
Disorder because Dr. Greene's goal was to split my mind into as many parts as possible so he could
control me totally. He failed, but I have to endure years of constant physical, mental and emotional pain
even to this day. I have been in therapy consistently for twelve years, and it wasn't until I found my
current therapist two and a half years ago, who had knowledge of the mind control experiments, that I
have finally been able to make real progress and begin to heal.
In closing, I ask that you keep in mind that the memories I describe are but a glimpse of the countless
others that took place in the ten years in between 1966 and 1976. That they weren't just radiation, but
mind control and drug experiments as well. I have included more detailed information of what I
remember in your written documentation. Please help us by recommending an investigation and making
the information available so that therapists and other mental health professionals can help more people
like myself. I know I can get better. I am getting better. And I know others can too. With the proper
help. Please help us in an effort to prevent these heinous acts from continuing in the future. Thank you
very much.
Contents

Claudia Mullen
Good afternoon. Between the years 1957 and 1984 I became a pawn in the government's game. Its
ultimate goal was mind control and to create the perfect spy, all through the use of chemicals, radiation,
drugs, hypnosis, electric shock, isolation in tubs of water, sleep deprivation, brainwashing, verbal,
physical, emotional and sexual abuse. I was exploited unwittingly for nearly three decades of my life
and the only explanations given to me were "that the end justifies the means" and "I was serving my
country in their bold effort to fight communism". I can only summarize my circumstances by saying
they took an already abused seven year old child and compounded my suffering beyond belief. The
saddest part is, I know for a fact I was not alone. There were countless other children in my same
situation and there was no one to help us until now. I have already submitted as much information as
possible including conversations overheard at the agencies responsible. I am able to report all of this to
you in such detail because of my photographic memory and the arrogance of the people involved. They
were certain they would always control my mind. Although the process of recalling these atrocities is
not an easy one, nor is it without some danger to myself and my family, I feel the risk is worth taking.
Dr. L. Wilson Greene received $50 million dollars from the Edgewood Chemical and Radiology
Laboratory as part of the TSD, or Technical Science Division of the CIA, once described to Dr. Charles
Brown that "children were used as subjects because they were more fun to work with and cheaper too.
They needed lower profile subjects than soldiers and government people so only young willing females
would do. Besides," he said, "I like scaring them. They in the Agency think I am a God, creating
subjects in experiments for whatever deviant purposes Sid and James could think up" (Sid being Dr.
Sidney Gottlieb; James is Dr. James Hamilton).
In 1958 they told me I was to be tested by some important doctors from the Society, or the Human
Ecology Society and I was instructed to cooperate. I was told not to look at anyone's faces, and to try
hard to ignore any names because this was a very secret project. I was told all these things to help me
forget. Naturally, as most children do, I did the opposite and remembered as much as I could. A Dr. John
Gittinger tested me, Dr. Cameron gave me the shock, and Dr. Greene the x-rays. Then I was told by Sid
Gottliebe that "I was ripe for the big A" meaning ARTICHOKE. By the time I left to go home, just like
every time from then on, I would remember only whatever explanations Dr. Robert G. Heath, of Tulane
Medical University, gave me for the odd bruises, needle marks, burns on my head, fingers, and even the
genital soreness. I had no reason to think otherwise. They had already begun to control my mind.
The next year I was sent to a lodge in Maryland called Deep Creek Cabins to learn how to sexually
please men. I was taught how to coerce them into talking about themselves. It was Richard Helms, who
was Deputy Director of the CIA, Dr. Gottlieb, Capt. George White, Morris Allan who all planned on
filling as many high government agency officials and heads of academic institutions and foundations as
possible so that later when the funding for mind control and radiation started to dwindle, projects would
continue. I was used to entrap many unwitting men including themselves, all with the use of a hidden
camera. I was only nine years old when the sexual humiliation began. I overheard conversations about
part of the Agency called ORD which I found out was Office of Research and Development. It was run
by Dr. Greene, Dr. Steven Aldrich, Martin Orne and Morris Allan. Once a crude remark was made by
Dr. Gottlieb about a certain possible leak in New Orelans involving a large group of retarded children
who had been given massive doses of radiation. He asked why was Wilson so worried about a few
retarded kids, after all they would be the least likely to spill the beans.
Another time I heard Dr. Martin Orne, who was the director then of the Scientific Office and later head
of the Institute for Experimental Research state that "in order to keep more funding coming from
different sources for radiation and mind control projects", he suggested stepping up the amounts of
stressors used and also the blackmail portions of the experiments. He said, "it needed to be done faster
then to get rid of the subjects or they were asking for us to come back later and haunt them with our
remembrances."
There is much more I could tell you about government sponsored research including project names, sub
project numbers, people involved, facilities used, tests, and other forms of pain induction, but I think I
have given more than enough information to recommend further investigation of all the mind control
projects, especially as they involved so much of the use of the radiation.
I would love nothing more than to say that I dreamed this all up and need to just forget it. But that would
be a tragic mistake. It would also be lie. All these atrocities did occur to me and to countless other
children, and all under the guise of defending our country. It is because of the cumulative effects of
exposure to radiation, chemicals, drugs, pain, subsequent mental and physical distress that I have been
robbed of the ability to work and even to bear children of my own. It is blatantly obvious that none of
this was needed, nor should ever have been allowed to take place at all, and the only means we have to
seek out the awful truth and bring it to light is by opening whatever files remain on all the projects, and
through another Presidential Commission on Mind Control.
I believe that every citizen of this nation has the right to know what is fact, and what is fiction. It is our
greatest protection against this ever happening again. In conclusion, I can offer you no more than what I
have given you today -- the truth. And I thank you for your time.
Contents
Testimony: Questions

Committee Spokesperson:
Thank you for your presentations. We appreciate that this is not an easy thing to do. Are there comments
or questions?
Dr. Duncan C. Thomas, Professor, University of Southern California, School of Medicine, Department
of Preventive Medicine, Los Angeles, California:
Can I ask either of you where were your parents through all this? Do you have any idea how you were
recruited in the first place? Did you have parents? Did your parents know anything about what was
going on?
Chris DeNicola:
I can make a brief statement on that. It was my father who was involved with Dr. Greene. My mother
was not aware because they were divorced when I was four years old, before that ... separated. What
would happen, how he gained access to me is that these experiments actually took place in the middle of
the night, and he would sneak in while my Mom was asleep, take me out and she had absolutely no
knowledge of what happened. However, when these memories did surface, and I began to tell her about
them, there was no question in her mind that he was capable. He had been in the military, in the Air
Force. He had access to meet Dr. Greene, so in answer to your question, it was my father. He groomed
me from the very beginning, started sexually abusing me from the very beginning, and it was just
something that he wanted to do and he was closely involved with Dr. Greene, but my Mom had no
knowledge. The only thing she knew was that she wanted to get away from him. She didn't know why.
She just knew she had to get away from him because of my reaction to him. I am sorry, I didn't mean to
go on. Thank you.
Claudia Mullen:
Do you want an answer from me also?
Dr. Thomas:
That's up to you.
Claudia Mullen:
The way I got involved was I was adopted when I was two and a half years old by a woman who
sexually abused me, and then she was a friend of the Chairman of the Board of Tulane University at the
time. As a favour ... I began to exhibit symptoms of typical childhood abuse beginning very young and
she asked him to recommend a child psychiatrist and it was Dr. Heath who was involved .... dissociate
and that I had almost perfect recall and I passed all the personality tests that they gave me. Heath
suggested me for the project. That's how I got into it. My father had no idea. He died when I was very
young, but I don't know if my mother knew or not. I don't think she really cared to tell you the truth.
Then she died when I was a teenager so ... after that they had access to me from then on.
Lois L. Norris, Second Vice President of Omaha National Bank and Omaha National Corporation
(Retired), Omaha, Nebraska:
You mentioned that there are others across the country who are recalling similar things. Do they all
cover the same time span, generally, or do you have a feel for that?
Valerie Wolf:
Generally they cover the same time span from about the late 1940's until ... one of the things that we are
hearing about is that people were assigned to monitor them in case they should start to remember
because it is so horrible what was done ... so we are not exactly sure when the actual experimentation
took place and when it got into just the monitoring to make sure they were still under control and not
everybody is being monitored. Pretty much from the late 1940's through the 1970's ... and maybe even
into 1984 ...
Claudia Mullen:
Later than that I found out. Because after my parents died, there was no one to protect me ... my
particular monitor was a physician at Tulane University and so he was a family friend also and he just
kept on making sure that I kept going back and forgetting.
Valerie Wolf:
So it's kind of unclear as to when or whether it stopped, or where ...
Claudia Mullen:
They still monitor you though. I am in some danger coming here today because I am still being watched.
Valerie Wolf:
I know it sounds unbelievable but there is actual ... she gets stuff in the mail, she gets phone calls, people
are writing things on her house, using the pseudonym that they used when she was at Tulane and only
they would know that name.
Claudia Mullen:
My real name was never used. Never.
Lois L. Norris:
Were they all children at the time?
Valerie Wolf:
Yes. All children. And the thing is, as therapists, we are trying really hard to figure this out and to get as
much information as we can. Claudia's memories have been verified ... a lot of them. The way I have
approached this is, I don't read in the field. So as people give me information, I send them to experts like
Alan Scheflin who has a lot of information, and then he will get back to me to confirm or deny. He has
never denied any information that I have sent him. Some of it can't be because we don't have all the
information, but a lot of Claudia's memories have been validated, and they are not in any published
source. The only way she would know the things she knows is if she had filed for Freedom of
Information Act information. This is what Alan Scheflin is telling me. I have been very careful not to
know a whole lot, so if someone tells me something, I don't even cue them because I don't know either.
Dr. Duncan Thomas:
It seems to me that documentary evidence is going to be key to establishing the truth of these claims. It
is hard for me to imagine that a program as large and as complex as you people have described, could
have gone on for so long without a great deal of documentation. The question is, where is this
documentation now? It becomes a Catch-22. If it is said that all the documentation resides within the
CIA files, then all of it is secret and they won't give it to us, but what you have described is a pattern of a
very complex organization which involves plenty of people outside of the CIA as well. Therefore there
must be a substantial amount of documentation that could be discovered. You just mentioned the letters
that some of you are still receiving. There is a lead to documentation. Can you describe to me what
efforts have been made, either by yourselves or by other people who are working on this story to track
down some of this documentation? And what you meant a moment ago when you said that similar
memories have been verified or validated ...
Valerie Wolf:
Dr. Alan Scheflin, you have his resume in the documentation and a statement from him about Claudia,
he has been for the past twenty years filing Freedom of Information Act filings to get this information ...
has been piecing it together. Other people across the country have been doing the same, going back to
the government files, getting what they can. And what they have also been doing is writing books,
sharing information. So he has actual Freedom of Information Act information. The problem is when the
requests are going in now, they are being slowed down, or denied, just kind of lost in the shuffle -- and
the information is very difficult to get.
Dr. Duncan Thomas:
I am sorry. I don't see the documentation in the package provided to me. Is there something missing.
Valerie Wolf:
I sent a packet of documentation overnight mail ... it should have been here on Monday, and more
yesterday.
Hearting Spokeperson:
If we haven't received it, we will let you know.
Valerie Wolf:
I sent the first one to Steve Claydman and the second one to Kristin Crotti (?). Again, it was what I could
pull together in about a week and a half from across the country ... it is the consistency of the stories.
The thing is we want to verify, so Alan has amassed over 20 years from Freedom of Information Act,
from memos other people give him, or sharing information ... a lot of information. But we don't have the
complete story. There is still a lot of stuff that we don't know, and that's what we are trying to find out
because ...
Dr. Duncan Thomas:
Does any of this documentation specifically refer to radiation experiments? Because we are told by CIA
that they never did any radiation experiments. What we need is documentation in order to pursue that.
Claudia Mullen:
All you have to do is look up everything on ORD (Office of Research and Development) the one I
overheard them speaking about. That was almost strictly radiation. And that was run by Dr. Steven
Aldrich, Martin Orne ...
Dr. Duncan Thomas:
And that's included in the package you sent Steven Claydman (?).
Claudia Mullen:
Yes. I gave him project numbers, project names, sub-project numbers ... even the subjects ... we were
given numbers ourselves for each specific experiment and I overheard my number because they
assumed ... they used techniques so you would forget. When you go home, you wouldn't remember what
happened. So they just talked freely ... that's why no one ever hid their face, wore a mask or anything
because they knew that I would not remember. And I didn't. I did not remember until two years ago.
Valerie Wolf:
I think you could also follow up on Dr. L. Wilson Greene. I don't know if you have come across him,
but he seems to have been involved in both. And I think, realistically in terms of the mind control, some
of the subjects were used in mind control and radiation, some as you have been hearing have been
strictly radiation, and some were strictly mind control. I think the reason it is coming up now is because
in some of the stuff people are remembering, they knew that it would break down. They really worked
hard to induce amnesia, and they knew it would break down, and I think in the last couple of years that
is what has been happening because we have been hearing more and more and ... so we are just trying to
find out what's happening here. So we would appreciate any help you could give us.
Chris Ebner:
I just wanted to address you (Dr. Duncan Thomas) for a moment ... the question you asked about the
documentation on radiation specifically ... included in my packet and I don't know if you have that or
not. It's entitled "Radiation File Information". There are subject names, experiment names, and some
code numbers that I remembered. The problem is that we have no way of verifying that without opening
the files.
Contents
Closing Comments

Wayne Morris:
We have just heard the historic mind control testimony introduced to the Presidential Hearings on
Radiation Experiments. This testimony took place on March 15, 1995. Currently the survivor movement
is calling for similar hearings on the mind control experiments in particular. You have been listening to
the International Connection on CKLN. We are going to feature information with Claudia Mullen and
Valerie Wolf in upcoming shows. If anybody is interested in getting transcripts of this show or the
whole series, you can send a short message indicating that to scw@web.net and we also now have the
transcripts on a web page www.mk.net/~mcf/ckln/ckln-hm.htm
Coming up next week we are going to be continuing with this series, and we will be featuring an
interview with Ronald Howard Cohen, a writer and survivor of abduction and severe drugging in the late
1960's. He has experienced further harassment in attempting to publish a book about his experiences.
We will be continuing this series until October of 1997 and there is lots more information that is going
to come out.
Contents

Producer Wayne Morris
Interviews
Ronald Howard Cohen

From the Ryerson CKLN FM (88.1 in Toronto) Mind Control Series
Contents
Introduction
Part 1
Part 2
Introduction

Wayne Morris:
Welcome to the International Connection. We are continuing with our radio series on mind control. This
is Week #7 in the Series and we have heard so far a lecture by Dr. Colin Ross about the documented
history of creating Multiple Personalities in people to be used as Manchurian Candidates or programmed
agents. Colin Ross talked about the documented evidence of LSD experiments with children ... where
they were kept on strong doses of LSD for up to months at a time. And also the use of brain implant
experiments on children by George Estabrooks who is another Canadian doctor who was involved in U.
S. National Security mind control experiments. We heard last week the testimony of mind control and
radiation experiments conducted on children that was introduced at the Presidential Hearings on
Radiation Experiments in 1995. President Clinton has since publicly apologized and compensated some
of the victims of the radiation experiments. Survivors of mind control are now calling for hearings on
the mind control experiments in particular.
Today we are airing the story of Ronald Howard Cohen who was abducted and severely drugged by CIA
and military in the late 60's. Ronald Cohen was an activist in the early 60's in the United States and he is
a writer. He has subsequently written a book about his experiences, only to have transcripts of the book
stolen and he was told he was not publishing a book by the CIA and the FBI. You are listening to CKLN
88.l. Here is the story of Ronald Howard Cohen.
Contents
Part 1

Ronald Howard Cohen:
"Transgressions" by Ronald Howard Cohen
Prologue
Step 1: The Patricians
"We need to surprise human guinea pigs, volunteers won't do. We need to take people by surprise. It is
as simple as that." The speaker stopped, looked at the man he was talking to, and took a deep breath.
"It's field research," he went on, "that's all. Just field research."
"You mean United States citizens? Not Orientals, or Europeans?"
"Yes. Don't look at me like that. Better us do it to them than someone else. Don't bring up the menace to
me. I'm not big on that."
"United States citizens. That's what we're talking about here, right?"
"Yes. What's wrong with you? I said yes, God, man. You've put screws into wood. You know it takes
some effort. Both of us have been in the world long enough to know that everything has a risk element
to it. Field research that's all. Some things aren't pretty. You know that. Don't make me out like I'm a bad
guy. I'm responding to a need that's all. Anyway it's not something I brought you in here to debate. It's
been cleared from above. Your job is simply to get to work on it."

Wayne Morris:
I am here talking with Ronald Howard Cohen, a victim and survivor of abduction and drugging
experiments by the U.S. government. Welcome Ron.
Good morning Wayne. It's a pleasure being here. And I really want to sincerely thank you for having the
courage to have me on since it's proved to be a very difficult task to find somebody with any courage at
all who has access to the public media.
WM:
I'd like to thank you for coming on as well. It's a courageous act in talking about this. As you are well
aware, and probably a lot of the listeners know, that there are many forces out there that don't want this
information to get out into the public and so I appreciate you telling your story.
RHC:
I guess it's possible that I should start with a brief introduction about who I am. I'm a 53 year old writer
who was born in the Bronx, N.Y. about six blocks from Yankee Stadium. I was raised with the idea that
I might become the first Jewish President of the United States and I used to think that the Founding
Fathers were great human beings. Then in the 1960's I became very active ... I have always been a
writier ... since I was fourteen ... I have always considered it as part of my calling. In the 1960's I
became very active in the Civil Rights movement and in the Peace Movement, worked with SNCC, and
COR, and the War Resistance League. I spent twelve years living in the Village in the Lower East Side
in New York. I was a very "hip" dude. And I was an original flower child in Haight-Ashbury. In 1967 I
left ... I was one of the original coterie of the people who got that all off the ground. And in so doing, I
apparently became part of Mr. Nixon's 20,000 or so shit-list, and became tagged -- I am assuming from
the research that I have done -- that this was as per the Houston Project which was something of the
coordination of the CIA and the FBI and US Army Intelligence to get all those radicals. Kissinger was
convinced and telling Nixon, like, "we've got 1915 out there for God's sakes, Richard!! We've got to do
something about it."
WM:
Did you have any indication that you were being monitored or targeted at that time?
RHC:
Well, you see, that's very interesting because I was sincerely a member of the counter-culture, and in
sincerely being a member of the counter-culture, what our raison d'etre was to change the world ... we
used to kid around and to prove your mettle it was "how many undercover narcs did you turn?" and get
them to quit the force and become hippies or how many undercover guys did you get to have a drink
with you, or even smoke some dope, and start telling you about ... "yeah, well, you know it's not a great
job" and blah, blah, blah. Confrontation was part of the game. I hitch-hiked over 100,000 miles, I don't
know, maybe 150,000 miles all over the United States. I started out as a careerist. I started out working
for the newspapers in New York. I received one of the quickest promotions in the New York Mirror's
history from Copy Boy to Assistant Editor and then I worked on trade journals in New York, and I was a
careerist. And then the Vietnam War was happening and the Civil Rights Movement, and then ... all of
that took place. But it wasn't a thing that was a big deal ... it was sort of like ... well, obviously. If we are
the best minds of our generation, and we refuse to be defeated, okay? Well, you are challenging the
Dragon ... and the Dragon is going to breathe fire.
WM:
We could talk about what you were doing at the time of the abduction and talk about the abduction
itself.
RHC:
Let me just give a little bit of background about what MKULTRA was ... it is not the easiest thing in the
world to do because Mr. Helms, who was the Head of the CIA, and Sydney Gottlieb who was the CIA
Director of the project ... their liaison was with the Department of Defence -- supposedly either shredded
or burned all of the files on this. John Marks, who wrote a book, "The CIA and the Cult of
Intelligence" ... after they claimed to have burned all the files on MKULTRA -- he came across some
documents -- and I have read other things other researchers say like "oh man they didn't burn the
documents, it's just a story ..." but it's very deep. I don't know. MKULTRA was a major project ... the
sincerity of the reasons, as far as I can make out, was that if you are doing noble work as part of the
Warrior Class and you are a spy for the Warrior Class then one of the things that you have to cover is
well, what happens if they capture one of us, what are they going to do to us? Well, I don't know. They
might give us all sorts of drugs and they might torture us, but we've been through that. They might use
more sophisticated things with rays, with god knows what else, just thoughts ... you can just go off into
all sorts of trips. There were six major divisions of MKULTRA and what happened with the Project I
was tagged under -- which if I am correct was Sub Project 255 -- this came out during the Carter
Administration with Senator Kennedy and Senator Church -- was stuff where they basically had worked
with US Army people. The BBC did a wonderful documentary on this stuff -- giving LSD and then
running US Army through calisthenics. They ruined people's minds. Then they did black prisoners -- of
course the United States is a race-conscious, class-conscious society -- they gave drugs to black
prisoners, and people in mental institutions. They were discountable. So what.
They had many different types of drugs. I was part of the drug culture. I became very well acquainted
with what marijuana was, what LSD was ... what I was given was not LSD, was not marijuana. It
screwed up my mind for five years. From what I understand in dealing with LSD, they had given it in
laboratory settings to people -- and everybody had a bad trip -- they were just miserable. Then they
decided to do field research with that ... and there's a lot of conjecture about whether the whole hippie
movement was a CIA sponsored project but that's more fantasy than reality.
(Eli) Lilly Corporation in Indianapolis, as far as I understand, bought a lot of their drugs for them. If
they would release documents, people could be a little firmer on what their understandings are as a
matter of fact. They then decided ... we've got to find unsuspecting people. Given their reasoning, if they
are looking to protect their agents, they are not going to have a situation where they are going to say
"excuse me, can I give you this dangerous drug?", right? They needed to just take somebody and just
give them this drug. The situation was politically ... here's these hippies, and they're taking drugs ... well,
they don't get along with their families ... they're all travelling around hitch-hiking ... they are easy
game ... We pick up a couple of hippies. What are they going to do, go to the police and say "I'm
stoned" ? That's, from what I understand, where I came into the picture personally. I was hitch-hiking ...
I was very counter-culture. I had given up my career, I had sold all my suits, I was basically in a
different garb and hairstyle. I was living and situating myself in different communities ... Lower East
Side and Greenwich Village in New York; Berkeley and San Francisco in California, other sections in L.
A.; Taos, New Mexico; Boulder, Colorado; Madison, Wisconsin. There were little pockets of counter-
culture communities. That was one of the central thrusts. The sixties has gotten such a terrible, bad
rap ... the basic good thing that I experienced in the sixties really had nothing to do with drugs. What it
had to do with ... that was a tool ... whether the tail wags the dog, or the dog wags the tail ... the thing
that I (and I haven't touched drugs in 15 years) ... looked at things ... there is no sense of community,
everything is screwed up. Why is everything screwed up? People function in a world that they don't like.
Why don't they like it? Because it is competitive.
Well, let's try to have a cooperative community. To the executive powers, that's communism ... that's
where the New Left came in. Although I wasn't political any longer at that point ... what I had decided
was ... I tried politics. I was getting arrested on demonstrations and all that ... it didn't matter. Some guy
burned himself to death in front of the Pentagon and Nixon said he was watching football games. What
mattered, it seemed to me, was the changing of personal self. Changing about how you relate to the next
person you meet. That's what matters. The same function that Mother Teresa functions under ... but
that's a whole other gig.
So ... I'm hitch-hiking between these communities ... I used to hitch-hike across the country. I would do
it in five or six days ... it was like going around the corner for a container of milk to me ... I'm hitch-
hiking through Indianopolis, Indiana ... from the west coast to the east coast ... I get picked up by this
gentleman who wants to discuss the Vietnam War ... all I wanted to do was get a ride. I sort of debate ...
it's like a born-again Christian picks you up and wants to discuss religion ... okay, is this worth 300
miles ... (excuse my cynicism, remember I am from New York City ... I have been here for twenty years,
I try to modify it but it flips back every once in a while) ... finally I say the hell with it, this guy's a
jerk ... I start telling him my views about the Vietnam War ... immediately he isn't going very far any
longer ... he lets me off ...
(I hope I have established my sanity before we get into this ... because this starts getting a little weird.
The thing is ... when you start talking about stuff ... it's weird ... somebody is listening to you who
doesn't know you ... it's sort of like, who's this weirdo talking about weirdness ... I am not weird ...
believe me ... after five years of being nuts ... I know what weird is ... I got my feet on the ground,
okay? ... but when I start talking about this here, if it sounds bonkers ... it's bonkers ... and it's US
government policy that was bonkers ... these projects in 1947 as ARTICHOKE and BLUEBIRD and
then became MKULTRA and it was only have supposed to gone on from 1953 to 1957 but it's open to
conjecture if it's not still going on ... )
Anyway. I'm standing on the side of the road. This grey car comes and picks me up and I knew how to
read drivers ... I had done a lot of hitch-hiking. This guy seemed kind of ironed, starched shirt, slacks,
short haircut, nothing in the car, no bouncing doggie heads, or dice, no music going ... so I think, I don't
know, insurance salesman. I figured like ... I got in the car and thanked me for giving me a ride.
Immediately I wanted to know how far he was going ... and I'm like, if you are interesting, and you are
not threatening, he's stopping to pick someone up so you've got to cool them out ... and you talk sex or
you talk football or whatever, music ... I tried just chatting this guy up ... nothing. Straight out.
Immediately, I go into my mind, I've been in all sorts of situations with people showing me their guns in
cars, or people picking you up and saying, I'm gonna rob the gas station up the road ... Whoa, why don't
you let me out before you do that, you know, and stuff like that ...
Immediately, because this guy's not saying anything, I'm just going, oh is this one a weirdo, is this guy
dangerous to me ... I ask him, can I smoke, because I smoke Marlboroughs at the time ... he said, yeah.
The thing was the car was immaculate ... in retrospect, it was a government issue car ... I slipped down
in the passenger seat, slouched down, trying to assess the situation ... now it starts getting weird. Under
the dashboard is a reel-to-real tape recorder ... a small one ... running. I think, oh fuck, what is this? I'd
seen a lot of stuff, but that one, I hadn't seen that one before ... I just sort of went, whoa boy, next coffee
stop I'm out of here ... I don't want to find out any more literary content, this is enough ... I flip open the
side ashtray on the door ... now it gets movie-time bizarre ... I can't explain really what happened ...
obviously I got hit somehow by a knock-out drug. But what I thought happened next, and what I see in
my mind's eye ... because that's the last coherent observation I had for the next five years ... dig that ...
What I see is a needle coming out of the ashtray. Now the mind is going, that's crazy, man, needles don't
come out of ashtrays ... and I'm out. The rest of this is like scattershot ... my head was picking up ... like
a screen goes black ... and then it becomes light for a little bit ... and it's a little bizarre ... and then it goes
black again. And my body ... I'm weak like a kitten ... I'm drugged, zip, zero ... I'm just raising
consciousness when I come out of the black. What I remember is it's now night-time ... it's raining and
then ... I'm still in the car ... and I look over at the guy ... and I never got a clear ... this is really ... it was
sort of ... is that the same guy? What's important and what really happened was a total panic attack, it
was sort of like, what the fuck is going on?
Out again. Come to. Highway sign. Virginia, Maryland. I know I went to Maryland. There's a place
called Fort Detrick, Maryland which is significant to the FBI, the CIA, and US Army Intelligence ...
mucho. I don't know if that's where I was taken ...
W.M.
This was the Edgewood Arsenal ...
R.H.C.:
Right ... I went out again ... I came to ... I am starting to get tension just remembering all this ...
anyway ... (it's not a thing that leaves you ...) ... I came to and now it even gets Alfred Hitchcock movie-
ish ... it's still raining, which is the perfect scenario, right? But it's not fiction kids. This is reality. I write
fiction ... but this stuff really happened. No doubt. So I come to and there's an M.P. (military police)
comes to the window ... he comes out of a little thing ... they go through some gyrations ... we enter this
place. I don't know why I was going in and out to tell you the truth ... although I was barely coming
out ... We then drive down into a basement driving thing and the door swings open ... Next thing, two
guys are walking me up a back staircase, out again, sort of like a ward place ... it is interesting that I
have never been able to follow through in all of the research I've done ... I've done years and years of
research on this stuff ... the feeling I got ... was like, oh shit, there's other people here ... the research I've
tried to get is like nursing staff, dietitians, I mean whatever ...
Out again ... the significant part of it ... I don't know how long I was there. My feeling is it was a couple
of days, at most a week ... I mean you got to understand ... at that particular time I wasn't following
newspapers or calendars and I didn't wear a watch, etc. etc. But it was summertime and it was still
summertime ... maybe it was a week, maybe it was a couple of weeks ... one of the other projects by the
way was implants but I don't believe that was the thing they did to me ... I believe I got hit with a drug ...
I was given a drug ... I do not know with all of the requests, I have files and files, and pages and pages,
of Freedom of Information requests, of letters to senators, of letters to congressmen, of letters to every
significant journalist that you can think of ... to lawyers, to lawyers' associations ...
Believe me when I thanked you for having the courage to have me on, that's heartfelt.
I don't know what I was given and I don't know how long I was there ...
W.M.:
Did you just have the sense that other people were there, or did you actually make eye contact?
R.H.C.:
Oh no ... it was sort of like bunk-beds, and people are stretched out ... sort of like wipe-out city ...
recuperation ward and I just got walked through there ... that's the only ... the last ... they must have hit
me ... I mean, I can only assume ... maybe somebody said, oh you didn't give him enough, and then I'm,
you know, phlunk ... gone. They erased my memory ... I don't know ... open-ended conjecture ... I don't
know what the hell what on there ... it's more than a little bit of curiosity to me ... I then start having
some conscious memory of what happens next ... I've been there obviously for some time, and I am now
in a cafeteria ... it's an empty cafeteria ... there's two guys ... wearing suits ... government straight arrows
in suits ... they walk me down ... they're getting coffee, right? We walk back to a table. I remember one
guy was eating a muffin, and one guys shoves a muffin under my nose and says, here you want a bite?
And the other guy said, hey leave him alone.
Then I'm out again. I'm in a car. A different car. It's sunny out. Highway. Pennsylvania.
If you follow the map, if you start from Indiana, you can see the highways they took ... Pennsylvania ... a
different driver ... again a grey, nondescript, nothing in it car ... empty, clean car. Then another bit of
weirdness ... it's interesting, because operationally, it just seems that they were flying by the seat of their
pants. Which compounded panic, right? So I am looking at this guy and now I'm starting to get
unwoozy ... I'll get into the state of mind, like I said this screwed up my head for five years. The thing
was that I start coming around, and I look over at this guy, and he really scared me. It was like ... I hate
using fiery rhetoric but this looked an SS true-believer.
He pulls off the highway and he pulls into this hardware-gas station-thing ... and there's a phone booth
there, he gets out of the phone booth ... and I'm just thankful that I'm starting to get, you know I'm
moving my hands! and I'm starting to get, What? What? There was a lot of 'What?' I mean, if you don't
believe it, believe me, I didn't believe it. I seriously thought I was losing my mind.
You have to understand that at that point I still didn't understand that the US government would do
things ... they were good guys ... I'm an American ... they don't do this to Americans ... I mean, even if
I'm a protester, a hippie ... they didn't do this ... blah blah blah. This guy gets out of the car, goes to the
phone booth, and I see him, and he's talking on the phone ... I'm thinking, you're asking them what to
do ... you don't know ... I got very frightened ...
I just get the feeling ... terror ... terror is terror ... I was in a state of total terror at this point. I just sort of
figured from the look I got on this guy, if they just sort of say ... boom ... which can get you really
annoyed ... being put in that position (once you get yourself back on your feet) ... this guy gets in the car,
takes me out to the highway, and he dumps me ... like a bad movie. Boom. I roll over, on the side of the
highway, and he's off ... scattering pebbles back in my face. And I'm there.
Whoa man. I remember the sun, and I remember looking at the green of the grass, and just thinking it
was so beautiful ... and then saying, like, okay, can I stand? Can I stand? And I struggled to my feet ...
that was not easy to do ... I did stand up, which I was really happy about. And I took a deep breath and
then I sort of tried to assess what was happening, because I couldn't put it together. It didn't match
anything. Two things came into my mind ... two real
clear instructive survival mechanisms: Don't tell anyone, because if you go and tell somebody what just
happened, they're going to lock you up in a loonie bin, you ain't ever coming out. Find out what
happened ... see if you can walk, get your head together ... I started to trying to think ... it was
impossible. The second thing which came into my mind, which was very good information for my mind
to tell me ... this was pre-Watergate ... get back to New York. I knew I was close to Philadelphia because
I saw the highway sign. Get back to New York. Get back to the Village. Get back to the Lower East
Side.
Get below 14th Street, in alphabet city. See your friends, and get yourself together. That's what I was
doing.
Aside from total weakness - I really was as weak as a kitten. The mind I had for the next five years.
Abstract painting. That's the only way I can describe it. Sort of abstract painting where a platform
doesn't have an end, and then it ends ... and it goes into another geometric shape ... everything was sort
of liquid. The only way I can describe it further ... there was a logical thinking process but the plotline
would drop out of it ... bump ... it was like being in a bumpy elevator that didn't stop for about five
years. The logical connection was just the ability to think ... it was the perfect counterinterventionist
technique. If you want to jail or knock off or put the people who are opposing your power structure out
of commission ... whatever drug they gave me, that would do it. Glad they learned something.
I will continue with getting off the highway, because there is a bit more that's interesting about that ...
the unhappiness and the anguish that this was ... I was living on the street at the time ... the shape that I
was in ... is some guy that you pass on the corner who is dirty, and bedraggled, and his clothes are just
yuck ... and he's mumbling to himself and he's out of his mind ... that was me. I was out of my mind.
Part of me was very solid. I was trying to re-patch all of this stuff that kept on falling apart ... there was
one night ... I was wondering the streets ... I was barefoot ... I had eaten some food out of a garbage
can ... I found myself rubbing my hands against the brick wall of a bank until they were bleeding and
causing me pain ... that's when I knew when to stop because my palms were bleeding. I was saying,
"here take my blood but give me back my mind".
W.M.:
That must have been a horrifying experience because at that point you really didn't know what was done
to you ... if it was just the drugs or something else ... or what combination ... it didn't seem to end.
R.H.C.:
No. And all my friends left me. There was no support mechanism because I had been a very solid person
that people looked forward to, and gathering around. I could see them talking, (whispering) ... "what
happened to him?" And then finally people became disgusted with me. Yeah. It was a nightmare.
W.M.:
Just to get a frame of reference ... what year was this?
R.H.C.:
This was the late 1960's ... around 1969. I came to Canada in the later part of 70-71 ... let me get off the
highway and then we'll get to coming to Canada.
There are two incidents ... not only the drugging, but the second time I was screwed up. This happened
in the Nixon administration. The second time I was screwed up was under Ronald Wilson Reagan. We'll
get into that later. (Sighs.)
I am on the highway. It's almost cliche but this hippie van stops, it's painted, and these hardcore hippies
are in the van ... "hey get in the van, man!!!" This very nice couple who are the most together in the
group are in the front, and they start talking to me and I'm just lying in the back. They were so
wonderful. I want to thank them again ... if they even hear this. The woman looked at me and looked at
her boyfriend, and said, "this guy's in trouble, let's take him home." They took me to their house, and
gave me a bath and fresh clothes to wear, and something to eat. I wasn't talking very much, and she
asked me where I was going, and I said I was going to New York City.
She said, "We'll buy you a bus ticket, man. You are in no shape." They drove me to downtown
Philadelphia, we had a cup of coffee together, they bought me this bus ticket and I went back to New
York. I haven't seen them since. That was part of the "community" I was talking about in those times.
I went through five years of travail ... there was one friend who had been politically active with me, and
then he had left the States, and he had gone to Montreal ... I was trying everything. I was getting a little
better. At one point I got better enough ... I was living in a Mission and I got a job as a warehouseman
and that's how I got some money. I was really quiet and into myself, testing the waters ... I went up to
Montreal and everybody who knew me assumed I had had a bad drug trip which I had ... but I didn't give
it to myself. This guy said, "you should leave the States, man". At that point, peace, love was no more.
Cities were burning. Watts was going on. Detroit and Harlem ... you had the assassinations. I couldn't
keep two things in my head together ... I was off the chessboard politically as an activist.
My friend said "you should come up to Canada, it's sane up here" so I moved up to Montreal and then
Montreal was going through a huge upheaval about French and English which I didn't know a hell of a
lot about when I first got across the border and came to Montreal. ... Why did you invite me up here? Go
up to British Columbia, man ... there's woods, there's trees. The thing to keep in mind is that later I got
solidly back together. I was working as a copywriter at a radio station, I had a rented farm situation. I
was back on my feet. I had chickens (out in B.C.), I had put in a garden. I chopped wood. It's a healthy
environment. You go skinnydipping in a lake and watch a falcon for a while. It's a good way to live.
I was doing that. When I got myself back to together again after five years of not being so, I met a
woman and fell in love with her, and she had been a student activisit and had tanks in the streets and had
been a medic in Madison, Wisconsin. She had bicycled across the country. We got married. I was with
my wife for two or three years. I hadn't told anybody. I had put it out of my mind. I had gone back to
being a writer. I hadn't thought about it.
It was like, "forget about it", and it was a pleasure to forget about it. One night my wife was holding me
and I was shaking and crying and really going through terror again, and I told her about what had
happened. She was really very strong, she said, "Well, Ron, you're a writer, right?" I said, "Yes." She
said, "Write about it."
That was the first writing of what has come to be "TRANSGRESSIONS". Up until I started writing
about it, which was cathartic and healthy, there was still the basic robotic instructions I had given myself
at the roadside, which was "don't tell anybody, they're just going to think you're nuts", you know, "get
yourself together." I guess at the point where I felt strong enough, knock on wood, I was together which
led me to all of the research I have done about MKULTRA itself.
W.M.:
After deciding you were going to write about it, what avenues did you pursue trying to find out what
happened to you?
R.H.C.:
I've read all of the Senate Hearings works. I have also read, I believe, every book that has been written -
and there has been some fine work by different writers - on MKULTRA, and given myself all that
background. I'm a fiction writer. That's what I am ... I have had to become a switch-hitter in the sense of
having had to work for ad agencies and newspapers and trade journals. I even have my own consulting
business as a writer (Perfect Communications is the name of my consulting business). I know how to do
other types of writing, but I am a fiction writer. I thought that the best medium for doing this was to
write it as a work of fiction and the thing was, I didn't think that just a first-person story would really
give a full picture of what was going on there. What I have also done is researched Sidney Gottlieb, he
had a very nice farm, he used to like to milk goats. Yeah. Interesting synchronicity. He was a Jew from
the Bronx, and he was in charge of the CIA's mind control experiments. Just like me. Perfect. Him and I
would have had a fistfight at the school if I had ever met the son-of-a-bitch. I have also researched all of
the people involved, so some of the characters in my book ... Richard Nixon, Ronald Reagan, Oliver
North, Tom Charles Huston (he's a fascinating little doo-hickey - he was Nixon's "Young Guy" who also
came from Indianapolis. I wrote a work of fiction, interestingly. I really do have a rather large talent, and
I say that without an ego. It's a gift, and I have been blessed with it. This book has had such difficulty
being published. It's the interlock, the corporate interlock, it goes on forever. The story that I wrote is
fiction, but it's based on the factual data.
W.M.:
During this time that you were trying to get information on MKULTRA and specifically what happened
to you, which program you were involved in, what kind of response were you getting from the
government. You were making information requests. How much information were they giving you, how
much was blacked out?
R.H.C.:
The interesting thing is I have gone through different administrations -- Carter, Ford, Reagan, Bush, and
now Clinton. There would almost be four or five different answers to that. Basically nothing happened
until Carter came in. I don't know if everything that happened during the Carter administration using
those fellows' terminologies was a "limited hangout", which means tell them a bunch of phoney baloney
stuff that will keep them occupied and we'll keep the good stuff to ourselves. Colby, the guy who just
died (Wayne: "mysteriously ...") ... (laughter) I try to stick to the facts ... if I don't know it for sure I'm
not going to throw around accusations.
He was the head of the CIA at that point. Let's just make something clear about that because that's really
the aggregious lack ... my main thrust in all of this is to achieve two things: truth and justice. Believe
me, I have gone through a desire for revenge. That was hell on earth. I believe that, thank God, I have
worked out my desire for revenge. I don't think it's possible for me to put this to rest for myself without
truth or justice being established.
During Carter's time and the hearings that went on ... Carter came on and said I'm not going to tell you
any lies ... that's what he claimed while he had the largest defence budget, even larger than Reagan's as
far as I understand,
but nonetheless. Good cop, bad cop. Jimmy's a nice guy, he builds houses for poor people. During that
period, there was information being released. I sent off many Freedom of Information requests ... I write
a great Freedom of Information letter ... I have done it often enough. First of all you get denied, and you
go through that whole thing. The basic game they operate on is, you want something, tell me where it is
and I'll go look for it ... but there have been some very good, helpful people in the government libraries
as well ... there were lots of covert activities and lots of documentation so even if you want to get
something for somebody, to some degree you have to know what to look for. The most reassuring thing
that came out during the Carter administration, without me going to the files and dragging all that stuff
out, was, "okay, thank God, I'm not nuts, I am not alone, this really happened ...".
Contents
Part 2

Ryerson CKLN Radio in Toronto: Producer Wayne Morris interviews Ronald Howard Cohen part 2
Week 8 in a Series of Broadcasts CKLN FM 88.1 in Toronto
Wayne Morris:
Good morning. You have tuned in to The International Connection on 88.l. We are in Week 8 of the
radio series about mind control. Today you are listening to Part 2 of the story of Ronald Howard Cohen,
a writer and activist who was abducted by the CIA and U.S. military and severely drugged as part of
Project MKULTRA. He has pursued finding out why this has happened and attempted to get some
justice. We will hear his story about writing a book and finding out about the government's interference
in suppressing the book from being published. Now, Ronald Howard Cohen.
The most reassuring thing that came out during the Carter Administration without me going to the files
and dragging all that stuff out, is that, "Thank God. I am not nuts. I am not alone. This really happened."
That was solid. The next turn of events which was very large was Ronald Reagan (... please I ask you to
control me if I start getting angry and annoyed at Mr. Reagan. I would like to stay even-toned.) With
Reagan, what had been done ... the intelligence community was very upset because Carter put in a bunch
of lawyers and said you guys have got to deal with a bunch of stuff but before you go out and do this
stuff, run it through with these guys. The ego of the people involved in all of that was like, "... we'll do
whatever the hell we want ..." The thing is, Carter got out and Reagan got in. There was a very good
article in a magazine called The Progressive, I was back in New York at that time ... the title was "Back
in the Saddle Again". What Reagan said to them was like, "Carter hung you out to dry? ...write your
ticket." When you send in requests for things through Freedom of Information, I try and establish a
relationship with the librarians, and also when I write to senators for stuff like that, or congress people ...
I not only write to their Washington office, but I write to their state office. I was raised by a union
politician in NYC, in the plumber's union ...
Reagan ... when you sent in requests then ... forget it ... you didn't get any information.
Wayne Morris:
Were you able to get a significant amount of information through Carter?
Through it all ... through Reagan and Bush ... I am a damn good researcher. I am also persistent as hell. I
will go eyeball to eyeball. I was divorced, and the book "TRANSGRESSION" was written. It covered
the drugging. I knew from having lived in New York as a young bohemian ... you want to get published?
Which parties do you get invited to? 57th Street and Fifth Avenue ... you want to get published, you
have to move back to New York. I got an agent in New York. The agent is very interesting. I was very
flattered. She was an older woman and one of her clients (she knew many famous and influential
people). One of her clients was Upton Sinclair who had written a book called "The Jungle", which was
about the meat-packing industry in Chicago. A very working class writer. That's my orientation from a
literary point of view, basically a working class novelist. I had the agent, and the book was going around
New York. I had to get my day job. You have to survive as an artist in this society.
All of a sudden, I start getting mail from CISPES -- Nicaraugua is going on, El Salvador ... I was
attending meetings, I was very functional, taking care of business. Coming in from Canada, getting an
agent, getting my book published, I was going to get back to Canada. My stuff was in a small town in
Vermont ... in a storage facility in Vermont called Bradelborough, Vt. That was all my belongings. I was
living in Chelsea, around the 23rd Street, West side area. I was very cautious. New York is heavy turf.
You gotta know what you're doing, take care of business, and stay very focused and centered. I knew
that. I knew what I was doing.
Wayne Morris:
So at this point the book was completely written?
It was written. It was at an agent. It was being shown around publishing houses.
Wayne Morris:
Just to clarify. All your manuscripts, all your documentation ...
25 years worth of work, along with everything else a person (... my pots and pans, my sheets and
towels ...) everything, including all of the writing, is in cardboard cartons and two trunks. There is quite
a bit of writing ... in Bradelborough, Vt. I was sort of tentative ... I basically felt, I want to be back in
Canada ... well, if New York works out ... I have documentation from Landed Immigrancy and Citizen-
ship and all that from both countries. The thing is I am there.
What this leads into ... for lack of a better term, I had two mind-blowing set-up situations. Here I am in
New York looking for a day job while my agent is trying to peddle my work about cover operations of
the FBI, the CIA and U.S. army intelligence on U.S. citizens. Well, I tell you ... Joe reads this, and he
calls Sam upstairs, and he calls Harriet and they say, "Who the hell is Ronald Howard Cohen, and what
is this book all about?"
Wayne Morris:
These are publishers you are talking about ...
>From my understanding of operations of the intelligence community is that they are in all avenues of
the corporate military industrial interlock ... and the media ... including the New York Times. The thing
is, what you do is, if you want people to know what's what, you train them, you say, "Very nice. Go
back to your job." They become literary agents, or they become editors at book publishers ... whatever
field of endeavour they are in. You have to be very cautious about what you are doing. This is all based
on somewhat factual but still conjecture ... I don't really know what's going on ... but if there's somebody
functioning in this profession ... you can find out whatever the hell you want.
I was working at a temporary agency ... temporary office work in New York ... to see how quickly the
book would sell and I could get out of there. From a personal standpoint, the thing that is important to
me is that I had all this documentation, but I had never had any contact with a person who had this done
to them, or anything similar. I had never had it confirmed from an authoritative source ... so I was on
pretty flimsy ground. A lot of what I had was answers to my Freedom of Information requests and other
books I had read, research, etc. I go to this real estate management office, I get a temporary job. I have
some bookkeeping, accounting, clerical skills. I did a job on 6th or 7th Avenue around 45th, 46th Street,
near Times Square. I put on my suit, do my 9 to 5 gig. I come into this place, there's this guy, such a
cliche, heavyset, very intellectual, smoking a pipe, has a beard. We talked for about an hour and a half ...
I haven't done any work. He is telling me how he has a girlfriend and she is in Russia. Then we go into
the Boardroom, lovely Boardroom, comfortable leather plush chairs ... making coffee in the back, drinks
out there. Very nice. Sit down. Two guys come in. There are stacks of papers around. The guy I had
been talking to says the other two guys are from a temporary agency, they have been here for a while,
they will tell me what to do. They look at each other, and sit down. I start checking these guys. One sits
at the head of the table and the other sits at his righthand side. I am down the table on the lefthand side. I
am working away, and they are not really working. I look up at them and the one at the head of the table
says "You don't have to do that shit, man. Don't worry you'll get paid for it." I said "Who are you?" He
said, "I'm with the FBI." I get a chill, a little nervous. This is not your common, everyday experience. I
look at the other guy and say, "And who are you with, the CIA?" He says, "Yeah. We just want to talk."
The guy at the head of the table says, "I'm from New Orleans and I came up here to talk with you." The
other guy didn't say where he was from. He said "I'm an actor." (As well as the CIA?) "I didn't get a part
in "Witness". You remember there was a commercial movie ... an undercover operation. The guy from
the CIA pointed to the guy from the FBI and said "we have just met". They gave me a name, and I
started scribbling stuff down and I saw them rushing me, and I thought "scribble when you get out of
here". I am not only outraged, I am really fucking nervous. I have never had this happen to me before. I
wasn't prepared for it. I just felt like I want to get the hell out of here, how can I get out of here. Maybe
they were going to abduct me a second time. The guy says, "Maybe we can work something out. You
have a book out ... come on, we know." I got up and I said, "I have to think about this. I am going home.
I am going to be here tomorrow. You both will be here tomorrow?" "You will be paid for the full day
and we will be here tomorrow."
I got home and I had a cup of mint tea, I didn't trust myself with Scotch. I put some calming music on. I
called up the temporary agency that had sent me to this job. I told them a really strange thing had
happened at the job that day. The woman said, "Uh uh, what was that?" I said, "Well these two guys
identified themselves as working for the U.S. government." She said (right out of her lips, she said ...)
"They told you what we do?" End of conversation. She said, "Are you going back?" I said, "I am
thinking about it." Wow lady, welcome to big league baseball.
I took a walk. Came back and thought "far out, let's do the game." I wore dungaree tough-guy clothes
the next day, took my tape recorder, and they are both sitting there ... in their suits. At one point, I guess
I was being glib, trying to find a basis for taking it seriously. One guy says to me, "Well, what do you
want? Well your book isn't going to get published ..." I said, "Oh yeah. How about a job at the New
York Times." They looked at each other like, "that's all he wants?" I said, "Listen you stupid sons of
bitches I'll tell you what I want. I want truth and justice. Next, both of you, I want both of you to take a
flying fuck at the moon and I'm out of here and you can send the fucking cheque." I walked out of there.
I had, to them, crossed a line. I had gotten to their macho. They wanted to make me a deal I couldn't
refuse. I'm being a wise ass and telling them to go fuck themselves.
Wayne Morris:
After you told them to take a hike, did they contact you again?
Yeah. They did. There were three set-up situations. That was the first. I got in touch with my agent who
said I sent it to a couple of houses but it came back. I have to work day jobs ... she said, "you won't be
the first". I had enough of the suit and tie business, so I got a job packing crap in a warehouse, in the
garment district. This is right after the real estate company temporary job. Packing different imported
leather goods... between 7th and 9th Avenue in Manhatten. Again it's a temporary service, manual
labour. I've got my workboots on, my sweatshirt, and I'm doing manual labour. There were six or seven
other temps, all black. The intelligence community hires people from all different types of groups...
They arrived in the warehouse. Now we come to death-threat time. It's lunchtime. I am trying to
maintain my cool. Maybe I should go up to Vermont. I take my brown bag and my thermos and I go off
in the corner and I am having lunch. This smaller type fellow (about 5'4", lightweight, strong, no fat on
him, he had mentioned about the Marines) comes over and says, "Can we talk?" He said, "Well, you
know, I came from Hawaii to talk with you." I said, "Ah fuck. Who are you with?" He said, "With Army
intelligence. Stay cool. I just want to talk. Want to talk about Indianapolis and Indiana." Here was the
first time -- solid confirmation. I really wasn't nuts. This really happened. "Look, I don't think I want to
talk to you. I just want justice. I don't think I'm going to get that talking to you." He says, "I've got
somebody I have to report to." I said, "Okay, you do your trip man, but I am telling you if you think I've
got anything to talk to you folks about, I've written it all out, okay? And I told you what I wanted, truth
and justice. Leave me alone. I need the money, I just want to do this job. I am leaving New York. Just
leave me alone." He got up and said, "Okay, we'll leave you alone." Well, this fellow was not alone. The
other fellow ... they didn't have to cover their cover anymore ... this got more like football locker room
type of subtle dialogue ... with the boxes throwing back and forth. We're going up a back elevator,
wooden, creaking up old elevator, with all the boxes. You're squeezed up against all the boxes, unload it
at the warehouse, shelve it, and then it's time to go home. I didn't know what these two guys wanted ...
my feeling was, "We sent you the businessmen, the nice guys, what do you want to see, we got other
guys?"
Wayne Morris:
Did you feel that all of your co-workers at that time were keeping an eye on you?
Absolutely. Not only all 7 of them, but also the people at the company. We almost had a choice, whether
we wanted to work or not. The managers were civilians, if I can use that term. There were times when
these guys and I were just talking. We weren't doing any work. If it was really a legitimate gig,
somebody would have been coming over saying, "Hey you're getting paid. Get back to work." That's not
what happened. We had the run of the place. One morning I came in and this guy said, "Hey Ronnie.
Did you ever hear of G. Gordon Liddy?" I said, "Oh yeah. I think I heard about him. Isn't he the guy
who busted Leary on acid the first time up in Millbrook, right? I knew some people who used to hang
out with Leary." This guy says, and he lit his lighter, "Do you think it's true that he put his hand over the
flame?" And then he shut it off. He was going to show me he could do it too and burn his flesh. We're
riding up in this elevator. There's two guys in the back and one of them says, "What do you think of that
Licence to Kill shit?" The other one says, "I don't use that much." I just thought, oh boy. Play hardball. I
just said, "Are we going to unload the boxes or what?"
I came home. I had really had enough of New York. I got my paycheque. I had had it. The phone rings. I
was foolish. I didn't jot down this fellow's name but I was off-centre. Nervous. This guy says, "I'm so
and so. I'm an editor at New York Times Sunday Magazine section." (You remember I had been
foolishly jesting about get me a job at New York Times ... this was about two weeks after that.)
Wayne Morris:
Had you sent your resume to the New York Times?
No. This guy says, "We at the New York Times, we're very well connected. We have a lot of different
people. New York City, we're always looking for very talented people. We have some people working in
employments, environments, places like that. I've seen a copy of your resume. Would you like to come
in for an interview?" I said, "Hey man, I wouldn't miss it for the world."
I want to read a segment from my book, "TRANSGRESSIONS" ... "I didn't want to feel fear or awe but
I did. I was going to an interview at the New York Times, the paper of record. It was hard not to be
impressed. I took the subway up to 42nd Street and Times Square and walked over to 43rd Street. The
Times building ran the entire block from 7th to 8th Avenue. There was a workman's style cafe across
from the Times and I decided to sip on a cup of coffee for a few minutes. I still had about a quarter of an
hour til my appointment ... I entered the jammed elevator and watched for my floor to light up on an
indicator above the floor. I was still nervous. Even on this crowded elevator the air itself seemed to be
thinning out, bringing everything into focus, making details distinct. I was entering some sort of center
of power. It will be all right, I told myself, as soon as you actually meet this guy you will be all right.
Mr. Berg is just one more human. My floor arrived and I got off the elevator. There was another
reception desk right ahead of me with the sign saying, "The Sunday Times Magazine" on the wall
behind it. I told the man sitting there that I had an appointment with a Mr. Berg and he lifted the receiver
of the phone on his desk and he announced me, "A Mr. Rosen is here to see you Mr. Berg." ...
He comes out and he says, "Why don't we talk up in the cafeteria?" We walk down the hall there to the
employees' cafeteria. Almost all of the many tables in the cafeteria were empty. There was a good food
serving area off to the side and Mr. Berg started to walk towards it. "Grab a seat towards the back table
will you? That one back there looks good. How do you take your coffee?" I told him, and I went way
down the room to the table he had pointed to. There sure wasn't any chance of our conversation being
overheard. I looked at the leaves of a potted plant waving from the effects of the circulating air or air
conditioning. My nervousness had disappeared. This was some interview. The man seemed ready to give
me the store. I was terribly confused. ... (he comes back, we chitchat) ... "I guess you know the Sunday
Magazine gets one hell of a lot of copy that's filled with some so-called facts and needs some careful
checking. Do you ever do that sort of work?" "I always like to check my facts," I smiled at him. "Good,"
he smiled back. "A very good policy." He looked down at my resume for a while, and then he looked at
me. We both sipped at our coffee. "We've got a slot that pays $45,000 a year." My face must have
shown how much that figure struck me. "I know that the smaller places don't pay that sort of scale, but
this is The Times. I don't know how my co-worker will take to taking on someone new right now, I will
have to check with her." I looked around the almost-deserted cafeteria for a minute, and I sighed deeply.
As I looked down the room to a table where a woman and two men sat chatting, they were talking
together like comrades. In my soul, I wanted to be sitting there, to be one of them. So at an out-of-the-
way back table, in a nice, clean cafeteria, I came to decision time. I couldn't do it. Dammit all to hell, I
couldn't do it. "Mr. Berg, can I ask you something? What's going on here? I mean I don't have the
credentials for this job. Most of my resume is sheer fluff and gunsmoke, I'm pretty sure you can see
that." He nodded and looked straight at me, feeling, I am sure, ten times more uncomfortable than he had
been only a few minutes before. Obviously I was going to turn out to be a real character. Of course I am
thrilled at coming across an opportunity like that. If I had come upon it honestly I'd be jumping all over
the place. But I can't do anything until I know what is really going on. "I don't know what to say," Mr.
Berg replied. "I know that about ten years ago a Senate Committee said that the CIA and some
newspapers were involved with each other, but I thought that had all stopped." Mr. Berg didn't like the
sound of the word "CIA" but he reacted like an editor who had spent his life checking facts and sifting
through them.
"Yes, in the 1970's I believe it was 15 newspapers, a dozen major book publishing companies, about 400
writers and journalists, if I remember correctly." He grimaced and continued, "If I remember correctly,"
he said staring at me, "some fellows have found it all to be very lucrative. All of that has gone on all the
time I've been here and I've been here for some time. There never seems to be a problem recruiting
people. I personally think it is all a very dangerous practice but others say it is the only way to know
which whore is trying to take a piss on you." "Do you feel that way?" "I believe in accuracy," he said,
and our discussion was over. (end book excerpt)
Wayne Morris:
How close is that to what really happened?
Oh that was pretty close! Oh yeah. You gotta keep in mind what I have now done. I told them to take a
hike, and then they offer me a $45,000 gig. I am not going to take a bribe. I am a real yeuch to their
community ... they are being "nice" and they just told me there is no freedom of the press, and my book
isn't going to get published, but they are going to get me a job at the New York Times. I get in touch
with my agent who was never able to sell the book, and we finally parted company. She gave up. I told
my agent I am going back to Canada and I am going to get re-located there, and we will stay in touch by
phone and mail. I went back to Canada and I got the same feeling I always did when I crossed the
border, "Oh thank God!" For whatever you got going here ... at least is to some degree rational ... I took
a whole process where I got an apartment in Toronto, got some furniture but all my stuff is stored in
Vermont. I hire a moving man to drive down to Bradelborough, Vt. to get my life's work and my
possessions and bring it back to Toronto. Very nice moving guy ... he and his girlfriend ... we drove
down in his van ... we had lunch in Bradelborough ... nice town ... sort of a wine and cheese and cracker
place with ski lodges etc. for people who are academics at Harvard and MIT ... My belongings were
stored at Hillwinds Farm which was a farm with a very big barn that had been converted into storage
facilities. We bring the van through the front where the horses came in ... it's like paddocks that are now
storage facilities ... There's a caretaker who lives on the premises and every month I would pay the rent
there, and to some degree had a correspondence with the people there ... I go to open my lock on my
storage unit, and it's not my lock. I went over to the caretaker's facility and I go, "What's with the lock?"
She said, "Mr. Cohen, I know you are a very responsible guy but you must have forgotten to put your
lock on ... I went walking through there and I noticed it was missing, so I put a lock on." She opened the
locker for me and my first impression was that it was all there. I am a total paranoid about locking
something ... I pull on it and pull on it to make sure it's locked ... My hi fi, my record stuff is there,
books are there ... let's load the van up. The van's loaded and something is like "Hmmm" but I am not
sure what. We have to stop in town. I want to stop at the police station. I go in and tell the guy I want
you to take this all down. I told him the whole story and I wanted to cover my backside this way ... I
don't have any drugs, I am not a drug dealer. If I get stopped at the border and they go through my stuff
and find drugs I want you to know I reported this, and I didn't have them, and they planted stuff. I may
be off the wall just now but I want you to know this. We get on the highway and I get shivers through
me. What I had remembered was I had more boxes. My writing, my writing was in some boxes. Those
boxes weren't there. But more, what struck me was, I had a lot of writing in these two trunks. I had my
original first story I did when I was 8 years old, poetry readings I had given in New York on tape ... not
only that I had my commercial portfolio as an advertising copywriter, all this stuff, my clippings ... all
my manuscripts for unpublished stories, plays, essays. Everything. My life's work. When we had loaded
the van, those were heavy trunks. It was a two-man job. I said "stop the van", I opened up both trunks
and then I realized I had a couple of portable typewriters (I was a typewriter nut). I had a 1920's Royal
and that was gone too. Message. I just sat there and the couple came along, and I was crying. I couldn't
tell them the whole story. We drove back to Toronto and they were very sophisticated, nice people and
they didn't ask any questions. I unpacked and I was devastated. I was into some very bad emotional pain.
I was really pissed. What do you do after your life's work is stolen? I got the answer. You write about it.
I sat down and I said, Page One. 'TRANSGRESSION' and we're going to start back 30 years ago. So the
book in manuscript form doubled in size. I have rewritten it. It's gone out to agencies, publishers, senior
fiction editors, top of the heap, who said to me over the phone, "Ron you made the cut. You made the
decision buddy. We were only going to publish X number of books ... I've seen long fights over which
ones we were going to go with ... we're not going to go with it ... keep at it." It sounded like she was a
little disgusted. You are dealing with heavyweight people. The editor goes to lunch with the publishers
and the editor says "Okay do you want to publish this thing and we go lawyers, and we go lots of
money, lots of fights, or what?" I've asked myself quite intensely, "What is this crap? Is this thing any
good? And I re-read it, cold. Yeah, it's good work. So then what gives? This thing could make somebody
some bucks and you're a high risk ..." After Clinton got in, I got on the computer. I got the new line-up
card in Washington, D.C. and I started sending out letters. Hello, welcome aboard, hello, this is stuff that
hasn't been looked at under the Nixon administration, and the Reagan administration. Eventually what
happened with that was the U.S. Senate Oversight Intelligence Committee, whose Vice-Chair is Senator
Bob Kerry from Nebraska, he wrote me back and basically he said, Ron are you a straight-shooter, I'll
have somebody check it out.
Wayne Morris:
This is under Clinton. Had you been in contact with Kerry before?
No he was a new Senator. If you have ever been in a Senator's office, and I have, they have lots of files
and papers and lots of stuff so they have a staff person. That's really whom you work with. So there was
a gentleman who was on the Senate Oversight Intelligence Committee ... they are the ones who
supposedly, in the back room, or in camera, are saying "what's going on?" and they are supposed to be
told what's going on. Bob Carey was in his 30's and he said I'm really busy, taking this on my plate ... it's
a little heavy for me to be doing, but I gotta do what I gotta do ... But as he said, he even called me on
the phone, and said Hey man, I'm open. As far as I know from what I found out anything's possible.
That's from the horse at the stable. At some point there was some headway, since I had ben sandbagged
for so long ... yeah, positive feedback ... I felt there was some movement. But then I got a letter back
most relatively recently which was much more formal and it was basically a turndown. I got on the
phone with him and I said Hey what's shakin'? It was a much more formal response. I had the company
names of all the set-up situations, I had the dates. I went home and I scribbled. I had the names of these
people who they identified themselves as. This guy said he's from the CIA, this guy said he's from the
FBI, he met me on such and such a date, at such and such a time. I had all of that which is pretty good
something to look into ... I had sent that and Carey writes me back and he says well if you have
something, but right now there's nothing. I write him back Dear Robert, man-to- man. Do you think I'm
an asshole enough to maybe go back to New York or Washington or whatever the hell it is ... what
exactly would you like me to bring you on your desk? So he hasn't written back to that. Maybe it was the
Dear Robert, I don't know ...
END OF INTERVIEW

Wayne Morris:
We have been listening to an interview with Ronald Howard Cohen, a survivor of abduction and
drugging by the CIA and U.S. military and subsequent harassment by agencies of the U.S. government
in his efforts to publish a book about his ordeal.
Please excuse the strong language that was used in the show, but I felt it was important to include what
Ronald's account of what was actually said in his interactions with the U.S. government agents.
This has been Part 8 of a series about mind control on The International Connection on CKLN. Next
week, we are featuring a panel discussion entitled "An Overview of Ritual Abuse, Mind Control and
Dissociation" with Walter Bowart, Alan Scheflin and Randy Noblitt. You have been tuned in to The
International Connection on 88.l.
Contents

Interview With:
Valerie Wolf
Claudia Mullen
Chris deNicola Ebner

Wayne Morris:
Good morning, and welcome to another International Connection. We are continuing with our series on
Mind Control. This is the 12th in a series and this will be continuing another five months in this time
slot. Today we are going to be hearing an interview with Valerie Wolf, Claudia Mullen and Chris
deNicola Ebner just after they had given testimony of mind control and radiation experimentation done
to them as children to the Presidential Advisory Committee on Human Radiation Experiments. Valerie
Wolf is the therapist of Claudia Mullen and Chris deNicola Ebner, both survivors of torture and abuse as
part of mind control experiments conducted by the U.S. government. We heard six weeks ago on this
show, the actual testimony given at the Radiation Hearings. Today we are going to hear an interview
conducted by Will Snodgrass, Chemical Injury Communication Network, a local cable TV producer
from Missoula, Montana. Claudia and Chris describe how the mind control doctors induced dissociation
or multiple personalities through traumatization and abuse for the purpose of programming the
personalities to perform various military intelligence and criminal acts. You are listening to CKLN,
88.1. And now, that interview.
Will Snodgrass:
Valerie, you testified today at the President's Council on Radiation along with two of your clients, and a
story unfolded there which America should hear. Probably many Americans will not believe when they
hear it. In your work as a professional therapist, what have you found with respect to children and
experimentation?
Valerie Wolf:
Basically what we as therapists across the country are finding are a group of clients that formally were
considered untreatable, that based on recent information we're finding are reporting having been subjects
in mind control experimentation performed by the government, the CIA and the military
establishment ... probably from about the late 1940's until middle 80's and may even be going on today.
Will Snodgrass:
Is there any official documentation of these protocols or these experiments?
Valerie Wolf:
There is some documentation of it. There was a Commission on Mind Control in the late 70's but it
mostly focused on the use of adults, prisoners, and mental patients. What got missed were the children
who were being used in these experiments, and the reason I think that the children were being missed
was because they were either too young to speak out at that time, or they were still involved in the
experimentation.
Will Snodgrass:
When did you receive either written documentation or electromagnetic documentation about this? Is this
something that is circulating within the group of therapists nationally?
Valerie Wolf:
Basically the information was released at the Eastern Regional Conference on Multiple Personality and
Dissociative Disorders in June of 1992. Those of us that were working with severely dissociated clients
listened to the information and followed up with it. I myself had had contact with seven clients who
report being subjects in these experiments. And the way that I have proceeded is that I have deliberately
not read any of the documentation or read any of the books because there are several books written on
this. Basically what I have done is as my clients have emerged, I have sent my information to Alan
Scheflin who is an expert in this area to validate memories, and I have done that so that he will call me
back and say "do you know about such and such?" ... I have no clue about any of this. And these clients
are real sensitive to everything so that if I knew something, I don't want to cue them or give them
information or contaminate their memories, so basically the memories are coming absolutely with total
free recall. There is no cueing from me. In fact, they will tell you that I basically say very little. I don't
feed them any information as far as what is going on, only as their memories come up and to validate the
memories.
Will Snodgrass:
Mr. Scheflin has filed some Freedom of Information (FOIA) requests, we heard that today at the
Hearing. Have there been documents provided by the government to him?
Valerie Wolf:
It has been very difficult. He spent twenty years of his life gathering information on this. A lot of the
FOIA requests have been slowed down or denied. It's very difficult to get this information and that was
one of the reasons we appeared at the Radiation Commission today, because in an attempt to ask them to
recommend an investigation of this, and also to help us open the files and get the information we need.
We need to be responsible ... we want to know if what these clients are saying is true. Now, what I have
found in terms of the stuff I have sent and other therapists have found, is that some of this can be
verified. And that they (clients) are telling the truth, and some of the information they are supplying is
not published anywhere, it can only come if you file FOIA requests and obviously these clients haven't
done that. But these clients know things that there is no way they could know unless they went through
the experience.
Claudia Mullen:
There are things that can't even be found through FOIA like the identity of people, their description ...
Will Snodgrass:
Your two clients here, Claudia and Chris, met through your practice. Can you tell me a little bit about
the encounter and the discovery that both of you had been involved in CIA or U.S. government
experimentation? How did this come to light between the two of you as clients?
Claudia Mullen:
Between Chris and I? There wasn't any connection between Chris and I. I hadn't seen her for two years,
and the last time I had seen her, I was being treated for PTSD for something that happened to me that
had nothing to do with this. I had no memory of being a victim of this. Chris had no memory. As far as
Chris and I, I didn't know she was ... although I knew she was Valerie's patient, I didn't know that she
was recovering memories just like I was because she doesn't discuss one patient with another, one client
with another. So, there isn't any connection between Chris and I other than the fact that we have the
same therapist.
Will Snodgrass:
But you did have the same doctor at one time? Dr. Greene ...
Claudia Mullen:
Well ... yes ...
Pendergast:
Chris, would you like to talk about Dr. Greene?
Chris Denicola Ebner:
Dr. Greene performed radiation as well as mind control and drug experiments on me between 1966 and
1976 and it was done out in the desert and he worked really on mind control with me. He did use
radiation experiments on me as far as I remember him doing some radiation experiments on my uterus
and my chest, throat, neck ... things like that. He also ... but his main objective with me was to turn me
into ... actually to gain total control of my mind and to split it apart into as many different areas as he
could, and develop me into a spy assassin and as I resisted him more and more, he turned it all against
me. He used different sorts of trauma techniques and basically trauma, drugs, messages, post-hypnotic
suggestions and then more trauma. Basically what he wanted was to get me to self destruct.
Will Snodgrass:
Valerie, how do we know that the CIA was targeting certain children, certain types of children? How did
they recruit if in fact that's what they were doing?
Valerie Wolf:
The information I have is that what they were looking for was children who were already traumatized,
who were already abused, children who were very intelligent, children who had good memories. What
they would do is look in clinics. A lot of the kids were in military families. In Chris's case her father had
military connections and he actually started grooming her. You have to understand we are talking Cold
War mentality when this started, and we forget about that sometimes. In terms of fighting
Communism ... the end justifies the means ... and that kind of thought was available at that time. So
there were people who truly thought they were doing something for their country. There were also
people who were really sadistic, and people who were pedophiles, that hurt their children. So what they
were looking for were kids that were already abused.
Will Snodgrass:
Claudia, what are your earliest recollections of this process? How did the government select you, and
what do you remember about it?
Claudia Mullen:
Well I was brought to Tulane University by my mother. I had been abused since the time I was two
years old. She was friends with the Chairman of the Board, Mr. Fenner, and she asked for a
recommendation of a top psychiatrist in New Orleans, and Dr. Robert G. Heath who was Chairman of
the Department at Tulane Medical School was recommended. As a favour, he took me on as a private
client. He said he didn't treat children, but as a favour he would make an exception and he said he would
treat me for free. My mother signed a consent for anything he would deem necessary, and he came up
with a diagnosis of childhood schizphrenia and aberrant behavior so he had something to put down in
medical records. What he was doing actually was, he had already agreed to receive I believe something
along the lines of $300,000 over so many years for Tulane in exchange for using a whole ward of
patients, or subjects, as many as he could get, and conduct experiments on them. He was already
involved in research on brain mapping, doing all sorts of brain experiments and he was considered one
of the top in his field and so they went to him and asked, and I just happened to get sent there at the age
of seven. >From then I kept going back for treatments, I was told. I would not recall what had happened
when I was there. Dr. Heath would tell me what had happened. I would go home and the next they
needed me, they would call my mother and she would send me back for treatment. I would go over there
and the same thing ... I wouldn't remember when I went back home. In between I had no memory.
Will Snodgrass:
Valerie, you had two clients who had come to you in adult life with some very very serious problems.
You had some information about programming. Had you at that time put two and two together about
these two clients? Did you suspect that they had been part of a government program? What happened?
Valerie Wolf:
Actually when each of them became my client, I had absolutely no idea. The way that I discovered it
with Chris was that a couple of months after I got the information, she started showing some of the
behaviors that had been described and started the downhill slide that usually led in these kinds of clients
to the hospital ... so out of sheer desperation I figured, well this is worth a try ... started some very very
careful gentle inquiries, and uncovered ... it was like Whammo ... there it was.
Will Snodgrass:
What did you find? What was displayed to you that led you to believe ...
Valerie Wolf:
Well, basically what she was showing was this really compulsive behavior to hurt herself, really
compulsive behavior to kill herself, self distruct kinds of stuff. And it was like a repetitive thing ... and
the puzzling thing about it was, Chris really didn't want to die. So why she was doing these kinds of
things? So it was like it was something that was separate from her. Plus she had all these years of
therapy, and good therapy, before she came to me. Ten years of therapy before she came to me, and she
had had good therapy and she had made progress but not to the degree we would expect. So those are the
kinds of things that were talked about, and those are the kinds of things that I have come to understand.
When you have good therapy and clients aren't making good progress you are missing something ... and
when I started making very indirect, non-leading kinds of inquiries, basically what happened was we got
into memories of electric shock, memories of codes, things like that, that we started working with. But
there had been no mention of her being a government subject and I never brought it up with her although
I knew that's what it meant, and we were working it through therapeutically but I had never said a word
to her. And a couple of months ago, maybe four or five months ago, after Chris had finished a memory,
she asked for a piece of paper and pencil and started writing out "CIA Confidential Memos" and I had
never mentioned anything about CIA involvement to her.
As far as Claudia is concerned, she came to me with the same kind of thing where ... she is bright, she is
verbal, she was working real hard in therapy, we were working through stuff, and she ended up in the
hospital which is unusual for the kinds of things ... I mean, I have years of experience dealing with abuse
and these kinds of things. One day ... after about nine months of therapy ... she came in with a piece of
paper with words written all over it, and in the middle was "MKULTRA" ... (one of the names of one of
the projects associated with the mind control). That's when I knew she was involved. I had also never
said anything to her about it.
Will Snodgrass:
Claudia, at the time you brought this document in, did you know what it was or where it came from?
Claudia Mullen:
I had no idea of what it meant. I didn't know what it stood for. It was just something that started coming
forward in my memory, and I would get bits and pieces. I would remember the names of doctors and I
would say to Valerie, "Have you ever heard of this man? Who is he?" and Valerie would say, "I don't
know." I started remembering treatment. It was just bits and pieces. It wasn't like ... I couldn't remember
whole weeks at a time ... I couldn't remember. I had always gaps in my childhood ... I couldn't remember
gaps of time that were lost. I didn't know why. I came to understand that I was abused by my mother. I
assumed that's why I went into treatment was for PTSD, and then eventually I learned I was abused by
my mother, but I thought that was the extent of it. I didn't even recall ever being at a University Medical
Centre, never remembered going there. Never thought I had been to Washington, D.C. but I had.
Will Snodgrass:
Do both of you now remember going into laboratories or clinics or being involved in immersion
therapies, or dark rooms, those kinds of things?
I remember being in a laboratory in 1966. I was four years old, and I was strapped down on a table, on
my back. I was naked, I had electrodes all over my body ... my head, temples, chest, stomach, back, legs.
Dr. Greene was there, and there were other children in the room as well. It was a laboratory. At
Tennessee University. I remember he had what looked like an overhead projector, it had a red flashing
light. He was saying that he was going burn images in my brain and I would do whatever he told me to
do, and how the images would go deeper and deeper into my brain. Just consistently repeating the
information along with electric shock and he would use the electroshock and then the imagery and then
more shock, and drugs to make me drowsy. Sometimes I would pass out ... yes, I do remember that. I
remember being in a dark room as well. Actually a lot of the experiments took place in a dark room out
in the desert in Tucson, Arizona. Most of the experiments took place there with Dr. Greene.
Will Snodgrass:
People today at the Hearing asked, "where were your parents? how could this happen? how could you be
taken out from your home or the place where you lived and brought into this situation ...
My parents were divorced when I was around four years old. My Mom had no knowledge, but my
father, Donald Richard Ebner, was involved in the experiments. With Dr. Greene and he would sneak
me out of the house in the middle of the night. I remember feeling drugged in the house and these men
coming in and they would sneak me out of the house, and my Mom would be asleep. That's how he
gained access to me, and visits, things like that. They did most of the experiments in the middle of the
night. He just found his way into the home. My Mom had no knowledge of it at the time. She divorced
him because I was afraid of him, and she couldn't figure out what was wrong. He had to be sneaky in
order to get a hold of me, and that's how he would do that. He would just ... he got the key from me ...
and he would sneak in in the middle of the night, and drag me out, and bring me back before my Mom
woke up, and that's when most of the experiments took place. I have talked to my Mom since then, since
the memories have surfaced, and she confirms that she absolutely believes that he was capable and did
in fact participate in these experiments.
Will Snodgrass:
Was he a member of the U.S. military? (Yes) And do you remember other military people who were
coming into your home at that time or that he would associate with, or talk with?
No. The only person I know that was my Dad, Don Ebner. I can tell you names of memos that I saw
with people from ... the military and Internal Affairs ... memos that I saw in Dr. Greene's office. Off the
top of my head, I couldn't tell you the other military names.
Will Snodgrass:
Claudia, do you remember Dr. Greene?
Claudia Mullen:
Very well. The first time I met him was, from my understanding now, most of the time he kept himself
disguised and used different names depending on what part of the country he was in. At Tulane, he saw
no reason to do that I guess, and he would wear a white coat just like any other doctor, and he would
wear a name tag, Dr. L. Wilson Greene. But he didn't like anyone calling him anything but "Doctor". He
didn't even like being called Dr. Greene. I knew him from the years 1957 until about five years before he
died in 1988.
Will Snodgrass:
So Dr. Greene was operating at Tulane University and also at Kansas?
Valerie Wolf:
And at Tucson. Dr. Greene has been reported -- he is probably the most consistent figure or doctor that's
been reported by almost everybody. He went under the names of Dr. Green, Dr. Greenbaum, Greentree,
Greenberg. But always with the Green in his name. He travelled throughout the country, training people,
doing consultation and also doing stuff on his own, I think, as Chris experienced.
He used disguise with me as well. I never saw him without a surgical mask, usually something on his
head, and all I ever saw was a little bit of the black rimmed glasses and whatever. He was just a sadistic,
evil man, and he hated me because I would not comply with what he wanted me to do.
Will Snodgrass:
We have memories that have surfaced here at some point in time. Did both of you, or either of you,
recall these memories before you got into therapy? Were there some memories at all of what had
happened to you?
Claudia Mullen:
Well, there would be times in my life over the years ... I guess the last time I was actually involved in
the projects was 1983. After that I was supposed to be monitored by a family doctor who was a family
friend who was to keep track and make sure I didn't get any memory back. And if I was, he was to report
it to them, to Dr. Greene. I had started to get somatic symptoms. I would end up in the hospital and they
couldn't find any reason for the illness. They would call in this Dr. Brown and he would notify the other
doctors and they would make sure my amnesia was reinforced.
Will Snodgrass:
Valerie what is the significance of these organic symptoms that presented?
Valerie Wolf:
Basically what you have to understand is how trauma memories are encoded and that is sort of a
technical term for how memories are remembered. There has been a lot of contraversy lately about
research on memory. There has been a lot of research done on memory, and what they are finding is a
lot of the information that is in the public is about normal memory. One of the things that those of us
who work with traumatic memory have found is that it is very different, even as to where it is stored in
the brain. Regular memories are stored in the part of the brain called the hippocampus.
Trauma memories - I saw a recent article - are stored in a more primitive part of the brain called the
amygdala. Basically what happens is if there is information to remember, and there is pain associated
with the information, then the two get stored together in the brain. In order to remember the information,
you also have to remember the pain. What happens with these clients is that there was so much pain
from the electric shock, from the other things they did, or drug effects - because sometimes you get drug
effect or very drugged kind of memory - but in terms of the physical pain - Claudia for example. In order
for her to "remember", the first thing she is going to remember is the pain ... wherever it was in her
body. It is stored with the information. If you intervene and reinforce the amnesia, the pain before the
information comes, you don't remember the information. In order for them to remember, they have to go
through the pain first and then the information comes.
Will Snodgrass:
So is it fair to say then that the U.S. government was using the barrier of pain as a barrier to memory?
Valerie Wolf:
Absolutely. And it is difficult, hard work. These two people are extremely courageous. They come in
and they know that when they are working, they are going to be in a great deal of pain and they are
willing to go through it, because they want to be free. And I want to say the purpose of treatment here is
not to uncover memories. The purpose of treatment here is to undo the messages they were given and
there were a lot of them. I have been a lot of thinking lately as to why some people have to remember
and some people don't ... even though they have both been traumatized. And what I realize is when
someone is traumatized, if the perpetrator is silent - when someone is traumatized, they basically go into
a trance - you have to get away from it somehow so you separate from yourself and you go into trance.
If the perpetrator is silent, then nothing much really gets in. Then those clients where the messages are
separate from the actual trauma really don't have to remember the trauma. But those clients where the
messages are part of the trauma have to remember the trauma. The point of therapy is to get to the
context, to get to the conclusions that people drew about themselves and the world from the trauma. To
get to the things were said to them. The things that were said to the mind control subjects in the
experimentation were deliberately said to undermine their personalities, to make them self destructive, to
make them not remember. That's what we want to get to. It so happens we have the memories and I try
to validate and verify where I can, but again the thing is to restore their functioning.
Will Snodgrass:
How many children do we believe were taken into these government programs for these purposes?
Valerie Wolf:
Honestly, we really don't know, but just considering the numbers of people who are coming forward, our
guess is thousands.
Will Snodgrass:
Are they remembering the rooms, electrodes, these kinds of things?
Valerie Wolf:
The memories are extremely consistent. In preparation for my testimony I sort of talked with a few
people, word got out and almost 40 therapists called me from all over the country - from California to
New York - all over the country giving me information and supplying back up documentation,
statements from clients all over the country. It is remarkably consistent with the report. And these people
don't know each other. They haven't talked with each other. For example, I am the only one in my area,
that I am aware of, doing this work. I have talked to one other person, but I haven't really talked to other
people nor have they talked to other people. So, were are not sharing the information, we are hearing this
stuff independently.
Will Snodgrass:
Chris, how did your memories start to come out and what can you tell us about your experience? In
other words, you have told us about the rooms, about Dr. Greene. How did you start to remember these
things, and in detail? In a synopsis, as much as you can share with us, what happened to you?
I had no memory of anything until I was about 22 years old and that's when I started to remember my
Dad sexually abusing me. Then moving in - it seems that I first started to uncover the easier to handle
memories. The sex abuse memories were easier to handle than the mind control electrodes and all of that
kind of thing - the Kansas City thing I was telling you about when I was four years old - that didn't come
until later. I didn't remember that until maybe three months ago. I started to remember the sexual abuse
and then it went into remembering that I had memories of just being tortured and actually, a lot of pain,
Dr. Greene inflicting a lot of pain and a lot of different experiments. It's hard to wrap it all up in a nice
little ball for you ...
Will Snodgrass:
Can you describe some of the things Dr. Greene did to you? You mentioned a doll today.
He performed a radiation experiment on me in the black room. It was approximately 1975. I was
strapped down on my back, naked, and I had electrodes all over my body and there was a machine, and
parts of it looked like an xray machine you might see in a dental office and he put three across my
stomach and pointing at my vagina and he told me I had the choice of either going outside and killing a
doll, which could have been a child, or I could not do that and be a murderer as far as killing unborn
children - I would never be able to have children. He was trying to get me to go kill the doll, so to speak,
because he was training me to be a spy assassin and I refused. I didn't want to have any part of killing
anything, a doll or a thing. So I refused, and my father was involved with this experiment and they went
around a corner and they flipped on a switch. I heard a drone sound as the machine started up and then a
buzzing sound, and I felt pain throughout my body all three times. Then they - it was because of the
electric shock - they were shocking me at the same time they were doing the radiation - they came back
out and said that I was a worthless, insignificant bitch, and that I was a murderer, and instilled all of
these negative messages along with more electric shock. After the radiation I felt nauseated and threw
up, and Dr. Greene got mad about that and started shocking me and after that he gave me a shot, and
next thing I knew I was out in the desert strapped down on a table with more intensive electric shock to
the point where I would pass out, and continuing with those messages. Knowing that I was a good
person, to think that I was insignificant, that I was worthless, that I was a murderer would be devastating
to me. Basically he wanted me to commit suicide because I wouldn't do what he wanted me to do. I
fought him all the way.
Will Snodgrass:
Claudia, do you remember your experiences?
Claudia Mullen:
Oh yes. There are so many. Like I said, I was tested at Tulane and at several other places outside of New
Orleans, and then once they decided I could become part of the projects - and they had a series of
projects, the Umbrella project, and the Bluebird which became Artichoke and then came MKULTRA
and each one on down the line. Each one had a different purpose. I was taken on train trips, planes -
small planes to different military bases. I was taken to places out in the woods - I guess Tulane was the
worst where I would receive intensive electric shock, isolation for days, sleep deprivation where they
would attach electrodes to me and if I started to fall asleep, they would shock me - enough to wake me
up. You couldn't sleep for days. The messages would start - "your mother doesn't love you, she left you
here, your mother doesn't want you, you are too much trouble for her, you are a very evil child, you want
to hurt people, you want to entice men." My adoptive father was very ill and he died when I was very
young, so I was taught to take to older men and encouraged to become friendly with older men and
eventually, when I was old enough, I was sent out into what they called the operational field and I would
be photographed with government and agency officials (CIA), doctors who were consulted, heads of
universities and private foundations - all under the chance that if the government funds started dwindling
they wanted to be able to blackmail or coerce the men into making sure the projects continued. That was
the ultimate goal. The projects had to continue at all costs. They had to train a certain amount of young
females to go around and I was sent to a camp in Maryland for three weeks when I was nine years old,
and that was my first training on how to sexually please men. I was through a training course, like a
seminar. There were children of all ages - even younger than myself. Teenagers, young adult girls there.
We were all assigned someone there, and at the end of three weeks, we were taught. They decided it was
a success. It was a CIA project. It was called Imaginative Research. They had to give a name to it that
they could release and document because they couldn't really put down what it really was. It came under
the heading MKULTRA, project 74, and I was subject #3. I remember we were given a number. We
were allowed to choose a name and after the three weeks I was sent home. For the next few years they
worked on making sure I was amnesia controlled, making sure the amnesia barriers were in place so that
if something should ever happen to me and the memories should ever start coming back, the pain would
come first. I would seek help from the doctors who I was taught were the only people who could help
me, the "good doctors". I was taught that doctors were the answer to everything. I had no reason to
disbelieve that because every time I was sent home, I was told you are a good girl, you are cured, you
are going to be just fine, you are going to grow up and have a lot of kids. I didn't even realize that they
had taken that away from me. I didn't know I couldn't even bear children.
Will Snodgrass:
How did they do that?
Claudia Mullen:
Mainly by inserting things, electric shock, some of the testing they did. They just produced enough scar
tissue that they blocked my fallopian tubes and I can't bear children.
Will Snodgrass:
You were tortured. (Yes) How many times?
Claudia Mullen: (Laughter from Claudia, Chris, Valerie about the question)
Uh ... from 1957 to 1983. I mean sometimes it would be for a week at a time. Sometimes it would be
overnight. Sometimes it would be once a month. It just depended. They had to of course adapt to my
school schedule. I went to a private Catholic girls' school, and I was taken out of school for periods of
time. My mother would tell them I had to go visit relatives, or my father was very sick and I wanted to
spend time with him ... my father was terminal. They had no reason to question my mother's motives.
My mother was told by the doctors that I just needed to come back for some treatment. It would always
coincide with times when the men could get away -- holidays. The CIA kept hotel rooms in two of the
best hotels in New Orleans, and year around, they kept a suite. It was unique in that it had two
bathrooms and one bathroom was where they kept the hidden cameras and I was actually shown the
hidden cameras by three men who handled that part of it. They called him Captain George White - he
was formerly a doctor. He used to be in the narcotics squad in California and then he became a doctor,
and joined the CIA. And then there were two other men who worked with him. They would put me with
the subjects who would be filmed (the men) and then when the men would come into town -- I am
talking about local politicians, government officials -- anybody who they needed to possibly get
something on, keep on file for future reference -- should they need to coerce this person into supporting
the projects. Senators, congressmen, anything like that -- if they were in town, they were given this
room. They had no reason to think there was anything strange about the room. It didn't look any
different than any other room -- it was just one of the better suites in the two hotels. I was shown how
the cameras were set up behind mirrors -- behind the mirrors which are in every hotel room, behind the
dresser. They would sit there and they would film it and later on they would show me the films. And
they would say, you don't want anyone to see this now do you? And that was one way of getting me to
want to forget.
Will Snodgrass:
You mentioned the CIA -- you heard the word CIA again and again. From your memory, CIA type
documents come up. You were listening as a child, and you heard things, and you saw things.
Claudia Mullen:
They started when I was very young like I said, and they knew that they would be able to produce this
amnesia. They were so certain that the amnesia would hold for as long as they wanted it to, that they had
no reason to hid anything from me, plus they considered me too young to understand what they they are
talking about. You've got to understand, it is very important, to keep the child you are working with
isolated from anyone else. So that no one asks them any questions. So that they learn to trust just the
doctors, scientists, researchers, the consultants. They have to learn to trust these people. These are the
doctors that are helping them. But you can't be around even nurses in a hospital. They would always
keep me very close by and they would put me on a sofa and give me a blanket and say, "take a nap" and
give me something to make me sleep. And I was told "this is very important to the President, he would
prefer you not to look at the faces". I thought that the President knew about all this. I thought I was
helping my country. I was told "this is to help stop Communism" "we need to do something to help stop
Communism".
Will Snodgrass:
You were how old?
Claudia Mullen:
When I was first told this I when I was nine and I went to the Deep Creek Cabins in Maryland. That's
when I was taught I was going to be part of this project, I had been accepted into this project, that I had
been accepted into this project that would help the government stop Communism. At that time the Cold
War was on, and it was very important. We were even taught in schools about Communists. They had
reason to think they had to hide anything from me, so they would have conversations about the projects,
about so-and-so - what he's working on, where he is, where he is from, they would call each other by
name. They would have suitcases with their nametags on them, briefcases. I met with Richard Helms
who was Deputy Director of the CIA for a long time. I met with him lots of times. I mean I got to know
them all on a first-name basis. They would say, "call me Uncle". Of course, every now and then they
would expect "a favour" but then you would be assured they were not being filmed. Somehow they
managed to film almost everything except Dr. Martin Orne - he's the only one who never got on film.
Will Snodgrass:
We're talking about sexual intercourse here, with very young women?
Claudia Mullen:
Yes.
Will Snodgrass:
How young?
Claudia Mullen:
Well there were children younger than myself, as young as five years old.
Will Snodgrass:
Sexual intercourse?
Claudia Mullen:
Actually it was anal intercourse until you got to a certain age. Until you got sent out into the field as, you
know, an operative -- to target these officials and get them on film. The idea being they wouldn't want a
child who had been abused over a long period of time. They would want a child who was innocent and
pure, and this was your first time. You were taught other ways to please men -- anal intercourse, oral
sex, everything else.
Will Snodgrass:
>From memory do you remember the names of some of these projects you may have seen written or
heard, spoken?
Claudia Mullen:
Well, under the Umbrella Folder, the first one was Artichoke which could produce amnesia and also to
develop polygraph techniques. That's where Dr. Martin Orne came in. He was supposed to be an expert
on polygraph. He worked with the Technical Science Division of Edgewood Arsenal as did Dr. L.
Wilson Greene. There was MKDELTA, MKNAOMI which was germ warfare. They were laughing
about how they would drop canisters of toxins -- they had no idea what effect it was going to have --
they would just wait five or ten years and see what the effects on this neighbourhood was -- a poor
neighbourhood. I was told about using retarded children in East New Orleans and exposing them to large
doses of massive radiation and they saw no reason not to use them because they were already retarded,
they just wanted to see what anamolies would develop over the years.
Will Snodgrass:
You were allowed to testify today, I assume, because there was radiation involved. Can you tell us a
little bit about your experiences with radiation?
Claudia Mullen:
Well I was exposed to not as much as a lot [of people]. I was exposed to a lot of x-rays because I was
given physicals quite often to make sure I was kept healthy. They didn't want me to ever bear children,
they wanted to make sure I would become sterile so they exposed me to radiation for that purpose I
believe. Also to scare me. They never protected me in any way, they never covered me with any kind of
lead apron or anything. But mainly I overheard about the large doses of radiation that were exposed to
masses of people. I wasn't involved in that, I just overheard conversations. I received small doses of
radiation. I was fortunate in that way.
Will Snodgrass:
Chris, today you talked about being in a cage and escaping and some of the documents that you saw?
Yes. That took place between 1972 and 1976 and basically Dr. Greene had taught me many tecqhniques
as to how to be a spy, and I didn't want to have anything to do with them and I was angry and they
would put me in a cage after traumatizing me in some form or another. There were times when they
careless during this period of time, and whenever physically possible I snuck into Dr. Greene's office
and looked at files. These files contained project, sub-project, subject and experiment names for the
CIA. I saw all of these different files at first, and they were all coded with different colour -- a purple
sticker, something -- an orange colour. Some were on radiation. The one that I saw on radiation I opened
it, and I had a photographic memory and remembered exactly what was written -- subject name, code
number and then the names and some of the code numbers, experiment names, code numbers, and some
of those names. I also remembered seeing memos to -- a subject name, code number, CIA classified,
then a 6 digit number -- either to Frank Harris, Internal Affairs; from Trenton Cox, an alias that Dr.
Greene used; also it would always say "confidential information" on it. Then there would be the code
number again, the experiment name, and then subject, explanation, either successful or unsuccessful:
and a brief summary of their findings on that subject in that particular experiment. The project, sub-
project, subject and experiment names that I remembered, the memos - the CIA memos that I saw and
had written out by memory, have not been verified at this point in time. They just recently surfaced
within the last three months. So, I cannot say as would Claudia if the MKULTRA is verified. The names
I have seen, and all the information that I have written out, typed out to give to the Committee to the
Presidential Hearing today -- none of that has been verified by Alan Scheflin at this point. He hasn't had
a chance to research it; however, he has been able to verify that the format and some of the terminology
and some of the names such as Robert Levine, one of the people who was on one of the memos, he
could verify the format -- he could verify that what I was remembering as far as memos -- maybe some
of the project names -- but I don't know.
Claudia Mullen:
The project names had to change from time to time, you've got to understand. They couldn't keep the
same project names because they had to get funding from different sources. The funding couldn't
continue from the same source for any length of time. The government would only sponsor it until 1963
and then the President put a halt to it supposedly, so they started getting it from other sources, and then
they would change the project names. They were constantly changing - there was Project OFTEN,
Project CHATTER -- that was one of the early ones with a Dr. Went who was head of that, and that was
to get interrogation techniques to get captured soldiers, POW'S to talk. The list went on and on -- I
overheard so many names and sub-project numbers -- I remember the numbers. The ones having to do
with sex had low numbers -- project #2, #3, #7, #12 -- they were mainly under Dr. James Hamilton. He
was the head of those. He was one of the consultants. He didn't work at the CIA. He was a consultant to
the CIA.
And with me actually Dr. Greene started to go -- he really couldn't do it in the laboratories anymore as
much -- so he went into kind of criminal type sex rings -- that's where he continued his experiments.
That was more of his setting.
Will Snodgrass:
You mentioned Tucson earlier today and you describe drives that you took from one place to another.
Would you talk about that a bit?
Up until two and a half years ago (I am 32 years old now) so up until I was about 29 I would get calls
from time to time and I would not remember the phone call. All I knew is that I would be driving to
Tucson, Arizona from Calfifornia where I was living at the time. I didn't know why, my adrenalin was
pumping, "I had to get there, I had to get there". That's all I knew is that I had to "get there". On one
particular occasion I was supposed to arrive at a certain hotel at a certain day in time. I was able to
somehow break it and turn around and drive home before I got there to the hotel. Yes, they monitored
me up until that time.
Will Snodgrass:
Valerie, what are they doing?
Valerie Wolf:
Basically this is being reported across the country. There is a certain segment of these clients that were
being followed or monitored. One of the things that they knew is that eventually the amnesia would
break down and that they would need to do periodic check-ups and periodic reinforcements of the
amnesia. So the people they had worked particularly hard with I think they assigned either relatives or
family friends or people who were associated with the project but not really on the payroll of the CIA or
the Army to monitor them. So if they showed any signs of having body memories that we talked about
before, the pain or anything like that, then they could move in and reinforce the amnesia. I think one of
the reasons that we are hearing more about this now and why there was so much interest in it two and a
half years ago, is because it's been a long time, and I think the amnesia is breaking down.
Will Snodgrass:
The viewers are going to ask one question: WHY? Why would the U.S. government do that. Do you
have an answer in your own mind?
Claudia Mullen:
Well, they thought, at first, that they had good intentions. They thought it was the best way to handle the
Cold War. Dr. Greene himself said that he could come up with war without using guns, without using
any kind of ... I mean, he worked at the Edgewood Arsenal and he wanted war without death. So he said
contol the mind, control the behavior, and you've got war without death.
I don't believe that fit with his personality, do you understand what I am saying? He really had an
ulterior motive -- he was a very arrogant, cruel man to be able to do these things. And to feel power from
doing this to people. He was into power.
Claudia Mullen:
That was probably to make him sound like was a wonderful man, a "scientist" [war without death] ... I
believe like Chris does ... he was just a sadistic, cruel hearted man who enjoyed torturing children.
Valerie Wolf:
I think the other element here, and if we listen carefully to what they have said, is a lot of this was done
for the personal gratification of the people involved. Sexual gratification, sadistic gratification, I think
they had "fun". That's putting it very crudely but I think that's another reason it got continued as long as
it did..
You have been listening to an interview by Will Snodgrass with Valerie Wolf, Claudia Mullen and Chris
Denicola Ebner done the day just after they gave testimony about the Mind Control Experimentation on
Children at the Presidential Human Radiation Experiment Hearings on March 15, 1995. You also heard
them give accounts of the National Security Establishment being able, through mind control, to coerce
prominent officials by sexually blackmailing them using children.
Wayne Morris, INERNATIONAL CONNECTION, CKLN 88.l Toronto Ontario)


Lecture by Dr. Alan Scheflin
The History of Mind Control:
What we can prove and what we can't

CKLN-FM 88.1 Toronto the International Connection
Producer/interviewer Wayne Morris
Contents
Part 1
Part 2
Part 1

Alan Scheflin:
... for you in the next two hours, is that mind control is a valid subject, we can prove a good deal of its
history and its postulates, and especially in this litigious climate when people argue that therapists and
others are crazy in believing in things like mind control, it's my function to show that the subject has
validation across several centuries, and especially a rich history in this century. What I want to do is use
slides to illustrate my talk, and so if we could lower the lights you'll be able to see the slides better, and
let's begin. let me begin. Can we... Yeah. Great. Let me see... {pause} All right. Naturally, the history of
mind control begins with the proverbial hole in the head. This is the, an illustration of a trephined skull,
the first known medical intervention for mental illness. There are many such skulls that have been
recovered from civilizations throughout the world, suggesting that trephining, which is as you can tell an
early form of lobotomy, was well-practiced by many ancient civilizations. The reason why the
proverbial hole-in- the-head here is important to us, is that this was a therapeutic procedure built upon a
medical philosophy, and the philosophy is one of possession. It seems to me that in many ways as I'll
suggest to you, these notions have come back again in the twentieth century, and so I thought it
appropriate to start with them now. The possession idea carried through well into the Middle Ages,
when possession theories of mental illness were prevalent, and cures based on them were equally as
prevalent and indeed necessary. This is an illustration of medieval Moon Madness, and some of the
dancing episodes that went throughout the Middle Ages. The treatment of choice was exorcism which
you seen an illustration of here, if you look all the way over on the left, the woman being held by a
group of men, there's a devil coming out of her head. This was, of course, the early equivalent of
Multiple Personality Disorder and the notion of possession theory, the body being inhabited by other
beings, is an important aspect of dissociation. The theory may have changed somewhat, but there is
certainly a direct history from the possession ideas to the dissociation ideas that we experience today.
The first, the first real treatise, I think, in mind control, which brought together possession ideas in to a
textbook, is THE MALLEUS MALEFICARUM, which is written in 1484, it's called THE WITCH'S
HAMMER, and I was interested to note that in the latest issue of, I think, NEWSWEEK MAGAZINE,
with the cover story on the brain, there is a one-page description of THE MALLEUS MALEFICARUM
by a novelist who wrote a woman's novel based on its terms. THE MALLEUS was used as a bible for
witch-hunting, and it tells you how to identify witches and how especially to interrogate them, and how
to cure them--the cure usually being killing them--but the value of THE MALLEUS, I think, is two-fold.
It is probably the second known text book in history on cross-examination techniques, the first one being
THE PLATONIC DIALOGUES. And so, we get in THE MALLEUS, a systemization of the knowledge
of how to do interrogations to lead people to give confessions that you want them to give, and so in the
history of mind control it plays a very important role, because this is, this is the work that was used by
the inquisitors throughout the Middle Ages and thereafter to obtain confessions and indeed false
confessions. THE MALLEUS itself then was read by police departments centuries later and used as the
beginning of the development of police manual. Let me jump ahead a couple of centuries until last
century, the #1800's, with the birth of psychiatry, and it perhaps is no surprise that there is a common
link to possession theories and the birth of psychiatry, in that most psychiatric treatments had the same
elements of violence that we see in THE MALLEUS and that we see in the exorcism, and beyond that.
It's the cast-the-demons-out... I'm gonna run through a series of slides here, all taken from psychiatric
text books, on the way in which people were treated. This one is an individual who was chained to a
wall, and this is a form of a straitjacket as you can see, where a person is tied directly to a drain pipe in
the wall. Here is an early version of the, of the straightjacket itself. It was beliefs that these people were
inhabited by demons, and that in order to get those demons out exorcism was replaced either with
violence or with severe restraint. But a century ago they also had something that we tend to consider as
modern but is not--shock treatment. The shock done, however, was usually a different form than
electricity since they had not yet invented electricity. This is a water shock treatment, and another
version of it appears here, where an individual is left blind-folded on the platform, suddenly the platform
falls from beneath him and he's dumped into a bucket of ice cold water. This was intended to be
shocking. Another form of shock treatment was to fire a cannon behind somebody without them
knowing that it was gonna happen. Again, the idea was to use a form of violent cure because of a theory
of violent possession. Interestingly enough, even electric shock has a history in antiquity. It did not... We
did not need the development of electricity to have electric shock.
The ancient Egyptians used to take a torpedo fish and slap it on the forehead of people who were
possessed, and the fish would discharge an electric current, and that's the earliest record of electroshock
treatment. This is a device that {pause} nobody can ever guess the importance of. It's an ovary
compressor, and I'll leave it to your imagination to, to consider how painful it must be to have
experienced it. Seclusion in its worst form is the wooden crib here. This is a form of containment in
which you can see that person is totally strapped into a crib with no way to move. This, however, was
not the worst form of restraint. It took a leading psychiatrist to develop that. This is the rotating chair. A
person could last only a few seconds in this chair without becoming nauseous and eventually losing
consciousness. And then there was the tranquilizing chair, all of these devices were used in the late
#1800's, the last two of them were developed by Benjamin Rush, a signer of the Declaration Of
Independence, and his face appears on the seal of the American Psychiatric Association as its founder.
It's not my desire to criticize psychiatry here, but rather to make the point, in terms of mind control, that
we began studying the human mind and mental illness with a theory of possession and a theory of cure
based on violence, and from that we'll see the various refinements. Perhaps the first of the refinements,
and the one that's notoriously wrong, was the leading psychological theory of the 1800's, and that is
phrenology--that you can measure the exterior of the brian or rather of the skull in order to understand
the interior of the mind, and this is an illustration of a phrenologist's chart, the theory being that there is
a direct correlation between a person's characteristics as an individual, and their skulls and the lumps and
other aspects to be found on the skull. The theory, of course, is completely wrong, but it occupied a good
deal of the 1800's and was the leading theory of psychology at that time. It led to further variants in
terms of face- reading... The importance of the theory is not that it was wrong, but rather that it led
people to begin to try to measure internal states. And so, from an erroneous theory people began to look
inside the brain to see how you can find external correlations with the brain, and we come across what I
think is the great paradox in all of healing, and that is that the more you learn how to cure people the
more you learn how to harm them, and for every step forward in relieving mental illness you can take a
step backwards in causing it. And so, for people whose interest is in control of the mind, their data
comes from how to help the mind, and so there is no step forward that does not involve equally, in the
hands of malevolent people, a step backwards. The idea of mind control turned more serious however
and in our concerns more contemporary when we come to hypnosis. This is Hypnos, the Greek god of
sleep. Of course, hypnosis is not sleep and so the name itself is deceptive as to the mechanism of
hypnosis, but hypnosis began the modern era with Mesmer, whose theories were also wrong not only
wrong but plagiarised, on inter planetary or planetary magnetism affecting mental states and so forth.
What Mesmer really happened upon without realizing it was the beginning of the idea of the laws of
suggestion, and what he did is set up what is called a baquet, and you can see here it's an oak tub from
which iron bars extrude, and the French nobility would come and touch the iron bars which were in the
tub, the tub was filled with water with iron filings, and people would then have convulsive states which
were pleasant enough for them to repeat quite frequently. Some slides of the baquette... This was high
society, not only treatment but also entertainment. You can see at the left a woman has fainted. That was
quite common. Here's a colour slide of the same kind of event.
Mesmer was, his work was studied by a Presidential Commission or rather a King's Commission. King
Louis XVI appointed a special commission to study Mesmerism. At the time it was receiving rave
notices from the public and condemnation from medical societies. Here's a cartoon of the time of animal
magnetism, you can see the animal doing the hypnosis, and another cartoon debunking animal
magnetism. The report that was issued on the work of Mesmer's student des Lond, was highly critical.
The commission found that there was nothing to the interplanetary theories and the magnetic theories,
but they were then forced to explain why Mesmer got so many curs, and they attributed the cures to the
power of imagination, and rather than study the power of imagination as a way to cure individuals, the
commission left the issue alone, and it took a hundred years for people to pick up that essential point,
that manipulation of the imagination could be used to manipulate the mind. The commission also issued
a secondary report that was stamped "eyes only" for the King's eyes only, and in that report the
commissioners said that there was an aspect of magnetism that was so dangerous that the practice would
be stopped at once. It was a menace to morals, that the attraction that developed between the magnetizer
and the subject being magnetized was so great that seductions were inevitable, and therefore we have the
first inkling of the relationship between hypnosis and hypnotic seduction in this secret report for the
King's eyes only. Mesmer died in disgrace and in exile after the report appeared, and hypnosis, which
was still called animal magnetism at the time, fell into disgrace but not into complete abandonment. It
wasn't until about fifty or sixty years later that James Braid, a Scottish physician, coined the term
hypnosis and hypnotism, and it wasn't until about fifty years after that that hypnosis begins to be studied
in a serious way, and the problems of mind control, using hypnosis as the vehicle again resurface. The
Victorians were interested in hypnosis 'cause it was fun to be hypnotized. They lacked the joys that we
have, such as Geraldo, and so they had to entertain themselves by using hypnosis for their parlour
games. And you can see a man here drinking milk out of a saucer on the floor, he had just been
hypnotized. And so, stage hypnosis at the turn of the century, from the 1890's to the 1910's and '20's,
was one of the most well-known and well-attended and lucrative forms of entertainment. ... just a couple
of artifacts from that time. Here's a brochure from a stage hypnotism show. Walter Bodey, an English
hypnotist, was perhaps one of the most famous of the stage performers. He had a hypnosis and electrical
show. You can see on there that, a statement, "The real Trilby," going back to Svengali. We'll return to
that in a moment. This is James Bodey. He lives on in history for a reason people don't remember any
more, and that is, he was the inspiration for an extremely young comic who got his start by mimicking
Bodey, and here's the young comic, here's the two of them together, Bodey on the right and Charley
Chaplain on the left. And so, Charley Chaplain's career began by studying Bodey's mechanisms and his
mannerisms on stage, and then making comedy of them. During the middle... During the Victorian era
people's exposure to hypnosis was not only as a form of entertainment, but it seemed like a form of mind
control as well. You could get people to do anything that you asked of them. You could have them be
suspended between two chairs, you could even stand on them when they were suspended between two
chairs, and you could do a lot worse as well. If you're sensitive, please don't watch the next two slides.
This is an iron bar held by eyelets, put into the eye lids of a subject, and this a stage hypnotist in
Georgia, and as if that isn't bad enough to suspend an iron bar from the eye lids, he took it one step
further and then pulled a young woman on roller skates. So, it's not always fun to be hypnotized, and
some people have taken the idea of stage hypnosis, it seems to me, far beyond where it should be
entitled to go. One of those people is Barry Konnikoff, who traffics under the name of Potentials
Unlimited. In one of his later... He has self-hypnosis tapes which were available all over the place. I've
heard he's gone bankrupt now and I certainly hope that's true. In his later round of tapes he argued that
women who have been sexually abused or raped deserve it because of what they did in prior lives. Now,
the First Amendment perhaps protects that. On the other hand, it is... There aren't words that would
describe a person who would make money out of that kind of a theory, so I won't waste our time on him.
I want to get back to the central theme of mind control, which starts with Jean Martin Charcot, who was
the foremost neurologist of the time. While the stage hypnotists were persuading people that minds
could be controlled by hypnosis, the professionals were learning hypnosis as well, and they were
learning it largely from a small group of people, the most influential of whom was Charcot. Charcot, as
the greatest neurologist in Europe at the time, was frequently visited by kings and princes and certainly
all of the most elite of the medical profession from around the world, and in his clinic at La Sault Petrier
in Paris, he would demonstrate hypnotic phenomena. He would, in his demonstrations, induce neurotic
symptoms in people. People who came in with an inability to move one limb, in hypnosis would be able
to move that limb, but he would transfer the neurotic symptom to the other limb, and so he could create
and destroy and eliminate and transpose neurotic conditions, and this was a remarkable demonstration
which impressed a number of people in the audience, but his theories were at odds with his major
contemporaries, le Beau who was on the left and HipoHypolee Bernheim who was, on the right. There
was in France at the time, this second school of thought about hypnosis. Charcot believed that people
who could be hypnotized were hysterics and that hypnosis was a form of hysterical dissociation.
Bernheim, based on the work of le Beau and his own work thereafter, believed that hypnosis was a form
of suggestion, and that the manipulation of suggestion did not need a former neurotic condition. Here's
Bernheim. Bernheim and Charcot often appeared against each other in a series of criminal cases that
appeared throughout France, on the issue of the anti- social production of crime with hypnosis. A person
who studied from both of these people and was influenced by both of them was Sigmond Freud. This is
a picture of him on his wedding day, and a better-known portrait of him in his old age, and then the
infamous couch. In his London office over the couch Freud had a picture of Charcot's demonstration,
doing the demonstration that I showed you a few slides back. Let me get to that. This was the, a picture
that hung over the couch in Freud's office in England. Now, Freud was very much influenced by the
hypnosis theories, and worked with hypnosis for a year, but then abandoned it, and it wasn't clear why
he did abandon hypnosis. Some theorists have argued, and I think correctly, that he was a lousy
hypnotist, {laughter from audience} and that seemed to be true, and he couldn't, as a result, get deep
enough trances to have effect on his patients. Other theorists have argued, and Freud's own writings tend
to support a secondary hypothesis, and that is that Freud was scared of the seductive power of hypnosis,
that the ability to move people into altered states of consciousness gave a feeling to the hypnotist of
some such omnipotence that it was in itself seductive. And Freud wrote that in one of his patients, as
soon as the hypnotic encounter had ended she jumped up and threw her arms around him and hugged
and kissed him, and he did not attribute that to his handsome demeanour. He said it must be some other
force at work and it so frightened him, he said, that he never used hypnosis again. And I think that he's
harking back to the Mesmer Commission's noticing that there is a manipulative power in hypnosis that
the subject may not be able to resist, but also the hypnotizer may not be able to resist as well. Bernheim,
by the way, and Albert Muhl, a German hypnotist in the 1880's and the 1890's, had already given the
world the false memory syndrome. They called it retroactive hallucinations at the time, and they wrote
quite openly in their works that they were concerned that through the power of suggestion you could
create an impenetrable witness for a court of law. That by hypnotizing somebody, you could induce
them to tell a false story, that story would be impervious to cross- examination, because the individual
would sincerely believe in the truth of what he or she was saying, and therefore you would never be able
to effectively cross- examine that person, because they would continually insist on the truth of what they
were reporting. And so, by the early 1890's the phenomenon of false memory had already been noted
and been written about extensively, and its application for courts of law had already been written about.
There is absolutely nothing new in the false memory issue. It is simply a failure to read the literature
from a hundred years ago. What's more important is, where are we gonna go from now with false
memory, and I think the answer is where we have already come from a hundred years ago. The next step
beyond false memory was the beginning to use these techniques deliberately for purpose of mind
control. And essentially the first steps are taken by A. R. Luria in his institute in Moscow. Luria
reasoned that if you can get people to have false confessions with hypnosis, you probably could build
affective complexes on those false confessions. In other words, you could not only get people to report
things that never happened, you could get them to experience the entire range of emotions affiliated with
those events. And so, Luria and his colleagues in Moscow in the 1920's began doing research on
developing neuroses built upon the implantation of false memories. That work was replicated in the
1930's by Milton Erikson, Lawrence Cubey, and others, who verified the truth of what Luria was
reporting. Now, Luria's work was not merely academic. It had its operational uses in the next decade in
the Moscow Show Trials, which are an extremely important historical event for our purposes. During the
Moscow Show Trials, Stalin purged his old enemies. Now, one way you can do that is simply have them
disappear, or you could have public executions. It is generally true throughout histories that regimes try
to improve their own legitimacy by discrediting their predecessors. Stalin's way of doing it was to put on
trial all his former friends, and what was different about the Moscow Show Trials is that when these
defendants went on trial they not only confessed to a series of crimes and sins, they could not possibly
have committed, but they begged to be shot as enemies of The State. Some recent books on the
prosecutor's role in programming during the Moscow Show Trials have added some new information to
our understanding of them. It was at this point that American intelligence agencies began to take notice
of the mind control potential that seemed to be apparent from the Moscow Show Trials. The actual paper
record though is hard to trace from the 1930's, easier to trace from the 1940's, and the trial that
ultimately set the C.I.A. off on its investigation of mind control was the trial of Cardinal Mindszenty.
Mindszenty was a staunch anti-Communist who was then arrested by the Communists and put in the
Androsi Street Prison in Hungary. The... Six months later he was put on trial, and as his predecessors a
decade before, he confessed to crimes and sins that could not possibly have been true. These are a series
of slides showing him at trial. The experience of Mindszenty was so frightening to American
intelligence agencies, that they began to investigate whether or not the Soviets possessed some new form
of mind control unknown to The West.
Here two stories develop that are both true and completely contradictory. In secret C.I.A. files you will
find both of these stories validated. On the one hand the C.I.A. argued that it was afraid that it was
losing the war for control of the mind, and that the Soviets had developed this new, sophisticated
psychology or whatever to control the way people think and act, and that America had to catch up. We
were on the defensive now and we had to, a lot of work that had to be done. One the other hand, in a
document that was extremely highly classified, eyes-only for the Director of the C.I.A.'s Eyes-only, it
turned out that there was a spy in the Androsi Street Prison who was reporting back to the C.I.A.
everything that was happening to Mindszenty, and this Eyes-only report which I've read is a wonderful
document. It details exactly what happened to Mindszenty. It names the Soviet hypnotists who did the
work and the drugs that they used to assist them in that work. It's a step-by-step manual for the
programming of Mindszenty. And what's particularly interesting is if you read Cardinal Mindszenty's
autobiography of the events, he really doesn't know what happened to him, and at this point the C.I.A.
had a better knowledge of the programming of Mindszenty than he had of his own programming. And
so, on the one hand the Soviets, the C.I.A. knew everything that the Soviets were doing, yet on the other
hand they were reporting that they were afraid that they were losing the war, and I think both of those
stories are true, though they're contradictory, and both are supported by secret C.I.A. documents.
Meanwhile, a related event begins to happen. In the late 1940's, Edward Hunter in 1949 for the first time
coins the term, "brain washing," and writes a book on it. This is one of the two books that Hunter wrote.
It turned out that Hunter was an O.S.S. and later C.I.A. propagandist, and the word brainwashing was
particularly useful because American prisoners of war were starting to give confessions of using germ
warfare during the Korean War, and America needed a way of stopping that kind of propaganda, and the
term brainwashing which had been coined by Hunter to explain the thought control programme in
Communist China proved a useful vehicle. This is Edward Hunter. I was able to do one of the last
interviews with him before his death. In the deep literature on brainwashing, the more academic
literature on brainwashing, his view of it is called The Robot Theory, the notion that with brainwashing
techniques you can turn somebody into an automaton. The Robot Theory of brainwashing is not the only
theory of brainwashing, but it is the most flamboyant and it's also the most frightening. The idea of
brainwashing then in the 1950's became the object of a lot of study and books like IN EVERY WAR
BUT ONE, people who had actually gone through the experience wrote about what had happened to
them and researchers like Biederman in books like this were reporting what happened to American
prisoners of war and other prisoners of war. In Hawaii, an American camp was set up to be a mock
prisoner of war camp to use the techniques that were being used of brainwashing. This an illustration
from that camp. These are actually all Americans, but it's a simulated exercise in brainwashing because
Americans were searching for a way to inoculate our soldiers if they should get captured and put through
a brainwashing experience. Would it have been possible for us to inoculate them previously so that the
brainwashing would not take? While the brainwashing studies were going on, another development was
happening simultaneously important to the development of mind control, and these are the sensory
deprivation experiments that began in Canada with Donald Hebb and others. It was... Hebb's original
work was essentially on what's called highway trance, the phenomena that people who will drive on
highways in long stretches of road that's pretty monotonous will to into trance. And this is a form of
sensory deprivation, if you've got... If it's dark at night, there's a long road, there's no scenery, you
probably all have had the experience of realizing that suddenly you've driven a couple of miles but have
no memory for that couple of miles passing, or you've gotten very drowsy. Well, the phenomenon of
sensory deprivation became the subject of a good deal of study in the 1950's. What would happen to the
mind if it were deprived of sensory input, since the mind needs sensory input the way the body needs
food? And in a series of studies, this is on isolation, inside the black room, students across the country in
Canada and other places were put in a black room. Here's an illustration of it. There's essentially almost
no sensory input at all. What happens to the mind? Floatation tanks and other ways of decreasing
sensory input, all had the effect of causing the mind when it is deprived of sensory input to throw out a
hallucinated world in order to get input back from that hallucinated world. And people, in fact, kept in
isolation too long could become psychotic.
Books studying the phenomena of isolation and also in conjunction with manipulating people's mind
through techniques of brainwashing began to appear. THE BRAIN BENDERS is one, THE BATTLE
FOR THE MIND by William Sergent is the foremost British book on the subject. Robert J. Lifton's
study, THOUGHT REFORM AND THE PSYCHOLOGY OF TOTALISM is the classic work on the
Chinese thought reform programme. Edgar Shein's book on coercive persuasion on the Americans taken
prisoner in the Korean War, RAPE OF THE MIND by Mirrileau, another classic. As all of this was
happening, this was what you could call a form of coercive persuasion as Shein had suggested, but there
was another event that was occurring simultaneously. The 1950's is, in many ways, the birth of mind
control experimentation, because you have the brainwashing issue, the hypnosis issues, the isolation and
sensory deprivation studies, and you now get the next stream of research, which involves obedience to
authority studies. I mentioned the other night Solomon Ashe's studies on opinions and social pressure,
and what Ashe did at Yale was the simplest of experiments on conformity. He drew on a blackboard a
line that was one foot long and another line directly under it, parallel to it, that was two feet long. He
then got six or seven people in a room, all of whom except one had been bribed, and the last one had no
knowledge of the bribing of the others. He then asked them in order which one was the shorter line, and
to the horror of the one who was not bribed, everyone reported that the two-foot line was the shorter
line, and it was visually obvious that that was untrue, but everybody else in the room was reporting it as
true. And what Ashe discovered was that the subject would report seeing the longer line as the shorter
line, that he would conform to peer pressure. Cynics dismissed it on the grounds that it just showed the
stupidity of Yale graduates, {slight laughter from audience} but that was not a sufficient scientific
explanation, and as Walter reported the other night the experiments were done in the Navy and other
places as well. Now, I want to distinguish this group of work from the others that I've just reported on.
Here we're talking about a form of manipulation of the mind that does not involve physical coercion. In
the brainwashing work, in the isolation work, there is a form of physical intimidation that involves
taking over the body and controlling the body, controlling all of the input in the mind and so forth, and
so this is... A person in that situation that he or she is in that situation, that they are captive in some way.
With this kind of experiment, we have what I call conversational persuasion. This is the beginning of the
attempt to develop theories of social influence on freestanding populations where people are not aware
that they are being held captive in any way, and indeed they're not. The next step along the lines of
obedience research, and some ways the most frightening, is the work done by Milgrim and his book
OBEDIENCE TO AUTHORITY. If you're not familiar with Milgrim's work I'll give you a very brief
explanation of it. Milgrim wanted to test the hypothesis that people in Germany, good people in
Germany, during the Nazi regime, were manipulated in a way to do evil, or let me restate that, Milgrim
wondered why so many good people in Nazi Germany could allow such evil to happen around them
knowingly. And his thesis was not the idea that there's something inherent in the German character, but
rather that there's something inherent in people, and he was interested in showing whether or not if a
Hitler-type character arose in the United States, that person would be able to get good people to do evil
in this country. And so, he built a box, I don't have a slide of it here, he built a box with thirty switches,
just little light switches, and the thirty switches were in fifteen-volt increments. They were marked in
fifteen-volt increments. As you moved over towards the right of the box there began to be some writing
which said, "Caution! Danger! Extreme danger!," and the last group of switches were marked in triple
red X's. Now, he then put an advertisement, again this is at Yale, so you know, maybe the cynics are
right. He put an advertisement in the local New Haven newspaper for people to volunteer for the
experiment. People came in and they were told that the experiment involved pain and learning, and that
they would be the teachers, and that there was a student and that they could see the student, and the
student they were told was hooked up to an electric grid, and every time that... The teacher was to give
the student a question, and every time the student gave a wrong answer one of the switches was to be
pushed. When Milgrim and his associates talked about the experiment, they concluded that nobody
would push all the switches, and most people would stop pushing the switches about halfway through,
because each switch was intended to deliver a higher voltage shock. The subject as about half the
switches were pulled, would increasingly flinch and then scream and then yell, would then say, "I don't
want to do this any more," would then say, "I have a heart condition! Please stop!," and then would
refuse to answer any question and would slump over. If the teacher balked at pushing the next switch,
there was an experimenter there in a long, white laboratory coat with a clipboard and a pencil, who was
instructed to say first, "Continue," and then, "Please continue," and then, "You must go on with the
experiment," and finally, "I will take responsibility." And what Milgrim discovered is that the
overwhelming number of people pushed all of the switches, and that the simple reenforcement of saying,
"I will take responsibility," or that there was an experiment going on, was sufficient to allow them to do
that. Now after Milgrim's experiments were replicated in other places, and what eventually evolved is
that the horror of what he was proving was so ghastly that the scientific literature turned away from it
and instead focussed on the ethics of doing that kind of experiment. Because after all, what he was doing
was taking people from the street and not telling them that they were what he was studying. They
thought he was studying the subject. And a lot of these people as you can imagine had severe emotional
reaction once they realized that they had shocked somebody with a heart condition on a machine that
went beyond extreme danger to triple X's in red, and so the ethics of doing that type of work then created
a movement in universities and other places for institutional reviews boards, etc., and the research can't
be done any more, and what Milgrim was proving, how easy it is to manipulate people by the simplest of
commands, was no longer being studied and certainly not in that manner. But books like COMPLIANT
BEHAVIOUR: BEYOND OBEDIENCE TO AUTHORITY, were being written to increase and
replicate and extend the work of Milgrim, and here's a report called CONFORMITY, COMPLIANCE
AND CONVERSION, from the Air Force in I think around the 1950's, an Air Force report using
Milgrim's work in Air Force conditioning. Let's go back and talk some more about hypnosis since it
plays a central in the rest of the development of mind control. Let me say that also, given the nature of
the subject of mind control, there are a lot of things I'm not talking about. I'm not gonna be talking to
you about the physiological aspects of mind control, to take you through the lobotomy and psycho-
surgery and electrical-stimulation-of-the-brain literature, and I won't be talking about the
pharmacological aspects of mind control, the use of drugs and botanicals and chemicals for mind
control, you know, but that should give you an idea of how vast the subject is. We're just concentrating
here on the psychological aspects of mind control. All right. The notion of hypnotic seduction had been
noticed in the secret report to the King in France, it had been noticed by Freud in his work, and it had
been noticed by many others--a series of slides on hypnotic seduction. The idea of hypnotic seduction
got, I think, its greatest impetus in an #1894 book called TRILBY. And this is illustration from it with
the infamous Svengali as the hypnotist, and to this day the portrait of Svengali as a hypnotist is almost as
powerful as Sherlock Holmes as a detective. It's almost the stereotype of the field. Trilby, today, would
be a No. #1. best-seller, the equivalent of a No. #1. best-seller, and even bigger. It was probably the first
block-buster novel. It was published in a magazine in serial form, and after the first issue appeared the
magazine had to print an additional one hundred thousand copies because of the desire for people to
continue the story. It... The author, George du Maurier, was launched into such public light that he
ultimately hid from all, in order to preserve his privacy. He had lecture tours through the United States
and Britain. Do you remember PATEN PLACE, how huge a novel that was at the time? This was the
equivalent and even bigger. The story of TRILBY is the story of a hypnotist who gets total control over
the personality of a young woman, and the novel itself I find to be incredibly boring, but the portrait of
portrayed of the hypnotist is tremendously exciting and has lived on almost as an icon of the subject
itself. There was a town in Florida, and I haven't checked to see whether this is still true, that changed its
name to Trilby, and at the centre of town they have Svengali Square. There were TRILBY parties,
TRILBY hats, TRILBY clothes. It was an enormously popular and influential novel, which introduced
people to the idea of the potential for hypnotic seduction, and also even worse. Let me... Since I don't
want to dwell on this aspect of mind control, let me sum it up and say that the traditional thinking has
been that you cannot get people to do with hypnosis what they would not otherwise do. There is value in
that thinking, because it then doesn't encourage people to try, but if you go and talk to the hypnotists
who will tell you that and you talk to them in private, they will tell you the opposite story, that within
certain parameters you can get people to do things they would otherwise not do, with hypnosis, and that
while hypnosis is not a magic wand or a magic potion, it is an effective facilitator for seduction or anti-
social conduct. There is an increase in court cases of hypnotic seduction now, but I want to turn to the
more frightening prospect of using hypnosis for the creation of anti-social crimes. Can you get... "You
are in my power, you will do what I tell you." How far can you get control of somebody using hypnosis
and forms of social influence? This has been the subject of a lot of fiction, just from my library here are
some of the books. THE DARKER THE NIGHT, WAS THE HYPNOTIST THE KILLER, SEEING IS
BELIEVING, YOUR EYELIDS ARE GROWING HEAVY, MURDER IS SUGGESTIVE, TELEFON,
which of course is a movie as well. And there are academic books like HYPNOTISM AND CRIME.
Interestingly there has been no major work on the anti- social aspects of hypnosis either in the legal
literature or in the psychiatric, hypnotic, or psychological literature for over thirty years. 1960 is the last
time we have a full discussion of the issue of hypnotic coercion, and 1972 was the last time a hypnosis
journal directed itself primarily to that issue. The texts suggest that there are cases in which people,
through hypnosis, have been induced to commit crimes, but the hypnosis community has been divided as
to whether those are pure cases. There is what I call the methodological dilemma that arises at this point.
If you... Usually the hypnotic encounter requires a certain amount of time and a certain amount of trust,
and so hypnosis researchers argue that it's not hypnosis that facilitates either seduction or the production
of anti-social acts, rather it is the relationship between the hypnotist and the subject, and therefore
hypnosis is not at fault. The experimentalists discount any clinical, anecdotal material, because it's not
rigorously scientific and therefore can't prove the conclusion of hypnotic coercion. But the experimental
literature itself is discounted, because as Albert Muhl wrote a hundred years ago and Martin Orne has
written as well, at some level a subject always knows that he or she is participating in an experiment.
And so, there is no way to test the validity of the hypothesis, that you can induce through hypnosis anti-
social conduct. On the other hand, such conduct is produced on a regular basis whatever the explanation.
The one place where the studies were done, where there was no fear of ethical violation or legal
consequences, was in work done by the Central Intelligence Agency, and since the work has never been
fully published, I have an article that will be coming out in THE AMERICAN JOURNAL OF
CLINICAL HYPNOSIS, on the C.I.A. hypnosis experiments. It's not my function here to criticize the
intelligence agencies or to condemn what they have done. I'm instead trying to argue the point that the
hypnosis community in general and psychologists and psychiatrists as well, need to know the data that
was produced and which still exists in C.I.A. files. If we are going to be accused by the false memory
people of using undue suggestion to get people to do things they wouldn't otherwise do, we need to
know the limits of those possibilities, and that material is in C.I.A. files, therapists are being sued across
the country, they need access to that information to help defend themselves. And so, it is in the spirit of
science and in the spirit of protecting therapists and patients, you know, for the good of the country, that
I present this material so that we can hope that the full amount of it is ultimately revealed. I also must
make a caveat. I can only report on information that I've seen, either through my search of C.I.A. files
and my interviews with C.I.A. hypnotists and other hypnotists. There may be mistakes in what I present.
I cannot correct that unless I have access to all of the material. And so, if I have made a mistake, it is a
mistake that comes from not being given the material. Of course, I have in good faith worked through
the material I have to tell as accurate a story as I know how. The C.I.A. began experimenting as soon as
it was born in the late 1940's. The experimentation in mind and behaviour control had already begun in
the O.S.S. with hypnosis experiments, truth cerems, truth tablets, and lethal pills, as well as other kinds
of experiments, but it was after the Cardinal Mindszenty episode that the C.I.A. began to really become
concerned about the possibility of hypnotic coercion, and let me quote to you from a C.I.A. document at
the time. This is a February 10, 1951, C.I.A. Top Secret Memo, called DEFENSE AGAINST SOVIET
MEDICAL INTERROGATION AND ESPIONAGE TECHNIQUES, "Hypnotism has been reported to
have been used in some cases by the Soviets as an adjunct to interrogation. It would be possible for a
skilled Soviet operator to lower a prisoner's resistance to questioning, and yet leave him with no specific
recollections of having been interrogated. With respect to inducing specific action on the part of a
subject by hypnotism, it would be possible to brief a prisoner or other individual, subsequently dispatch
him on a mission, and successfully debrief him on his return, without his recollection of the whole
proceeding." A June 1951 C.I.A.Memo says, "C.I.A. interest is in the specific subject of devising
scientific methods for controlling the minds of individuals." And so, in the late 1940's some essentially
uncontrolled experimentation was begun by various people within the C.I.A., and a more structured
programme was also undertaken which had the name Blue Bird, and that name was then changed to
Artichoke, and under Projects Blue Bird and Artichoke the attempt was made to bring together all
known knowledge of interrogation techniques, truth serums, polygraphs, and hypnosis, to create
essentially an elite interrogation team with facility in all of those endeavours, and have them do the work
that would be needed, first of all to protect against infiltration by enemy agents, and also to protect the
minds of American agents who might get captured by Communist individuals.
Contents
Part 2

Wayne Morris:
We have been in the middle of an extended series on mind control here on the International Connection.
This is Week #11, and we have heard so far, if you haven't been listening for the last few months a
lecture by Dr. Colin Ross and an interview with him about the U.S. government CIA and military use
and creating Manchurian Candidates by creating Multlple Personality Disorder. We also heard testimony
given at the Human Radiation Hearings ... survivors of this ... and we also heard the story of Ronald
Howard Cohen, writer and activist who was abducted and drugged by CIA military. We are hearing this
week, a lecture Part Two of a lecture given by Dr. Alan Scheflin, and this is entitled "The History of
Mind Control: What we can prove and what we can't". This was given back in 1995 in Dallas, Texas
at a conference and we are going to listen to Part Two today.
Alan Scheflin:
It is not my function here to criticize the Intelligence Agencies or condemn what they have done. I am
instead trying to argue the point that the hypnosis community in general and psychologists and
psychiatrists as well need to know the data that was produced and still exists in CIA files. If we are
going to be accused by the False Memory people of using undue suggestion to get people to do things
they wouldn't otherwise do, we need to know the limits of those possibilities and that material is in CIA
files. Therapists are being sued across the country. They need access to that information to help defend
themselves. And so, it is in the spirit of science and in the spirit of protecting therapists and patients, and
for the good of the country, that I present this material so we can hope that the full amount of it is
ultimately revealed.
I also must make a caveat. I can only report on information that I have seen, either through my search of
CIA files and my interviews with CIA hypnotists and other hypnotists. There may be mistakes in what I
present. I cannot correct that unless I have access to all of the material. If I have made a mistake, it is a
mistake that comes from not being given the material because I have in good faith worked through the
material I have to tell as accurate a story as I know how.
The CIA began experimenting as soon as it was born in the late 1940's. The experimentation in mind
and behavior control had already begun in the OSS with hypnosis experiments, truth serums, truth
tablets, lethal pills as well as other kinds of experiments, but it was after the Cardinal Josef Mindszenty
episode that the CIA began to really become concerned about the possibility of hypnotic coercion. Let
me quote to you from a CIA document at the time.
This is a February 10, 1951 CIA top secret memo called 'Defence Against Soviet Medical Interrogation
and Espionage Techniques': "Hypnotism has been reported to have been used in some cases by the
Soviets as an adjunct to interrogation. It would be possible for a skilled Soviet operator to lower the
prisoner's resistance to questioning yet leave him with no specific recollections of having been
interrogated. With respect to inducing specific action on the part of the subject by hypnotism, it would
be possible to brief a prisoner or other individual, subsequently despatch him on a mission and
successfully debrief him on his return, without his recollection of the whole proceeding." A June, 1951
CIA memo says, "CIA interest is in the specific subject of devising scientific methods of controlling the
minds of individuals."
In the late 1940's, some essentially uncontrolled experimentation was begun by various people within
the CIA, and a more structured program was also undertaken which had the name BLUEBIRD and that
name was then changed to ARTICHOKE, and under projects BLUEBIRD and ARTICHOKE, the
attempt was made to bring together all known knowledge of interrogation techniques, truth serums,
polygraphs and hypnosis to create essentially an elite interrogation team with facility in all of those
endeavours, and have them do the work that would be needed. First of all, to protect against infiltration
by enemy agents, and also to protect the minds of American agents who might get captured by
Communist individuals.
In the early 1950's, Walter Smith, the Director of Central Intelligence in an EYES ONLY MEMO said
he wanted to know the issue in order to know the answer to the question, "...whether effective practical
techniques exist whereby an individual can be caused to become subservient to an imposed control, and
subsequently that individual be unaware of the event." The purpose of the CIA experiments by the early
1950's was to discover the ways to control the minds of individuals. BLUEBIRD and ARTICHOKE
were only one part of it. There were other parts as well.
The CIA's facility in Langley did not exist at that time. They used office buildings throughout the
Washington area, and safe houses around the country and throughout the world. Eventually in 1953 we
get a new program from the CIA which is the most expansive mind control program in the history of the
world. It's genesis begins in 1953 with a speech given by Allen Dulles who was the new CIA Director.
In his speech, Dulles said that we were losing control of the battle of the mind, that we were at war with
the Soviet Union. He called it brain warfare, and the Soviets possessed knowledge with the United
States did not. A top-secret memo two months later in June, 1953 states, "...interrogations of the
individuals who had come out of North Korea across the Soviet Union to freedom recently, apparently
had experienced a blank period or a period of disorientation while passing through a special zone in
Manchuria." By 1953 in other words, the notion of the Manchurian Candidates in almost those exact
terms, had been theorized by the CIA. I will come back to that point in a moment, but in Dulles' public
speech on April 10, 1953 to Princeton Alumni in Hotsprings, West Virginia, he argued we had to do
something to make sure we did not lose the war with the Soviet Union. About a week and a half later, he
signed into law what was called MKULTRA. Walter Bowart has speculated, and I think it is a good
speculation, that the MK stands for Mind Kontrol, and ULTRA was the code name given to breaking the
Japanese and German codes, and so this was the code name given to breaking the code of the human
mind. MKULTRA was the umbrella for 149 sub-projects. All of them were under the auspices of Sidney
Gottlieb, and later directed by his boss, Richard Helms. The 149 sub-projects -- you can read something
about this in government documents. This is a project MKULTRA from a Joint Hearing from the United
States Senate and some of the material has been made public by the Congress. Other material has not
been made public but the existence of MKULTRA is not a secret, and its contours are known to some
extent. Another government document explores the same territory. This one is on biomedical and
behavioral research by the government.
The goal of all 149 sub-projects was mind and behavior control. Some of them involved botanical. Some
of them involved psychosurgery and electrical stimulation of the brain. 9 of the sub-projects involved
hypnosis. Some of the sub-projects involved things like voodoo. One of them involved circumcision to
create anxiety and then manipulate the anxiety. Almost anything you could think of and things you
wouldn't think of were funded and studied. Maybe more one of the more well known studies, and one of
the more notorious is the work that was done by Ewen Cameron in Canada. Cameron was the President
of the Canadian Psychiatric Association, the American Psychiatric Association, and the World
Psychiatric Association. In his work at the Allen Memorial Institute in Montreal he had a theory that
sounds unique but actually exists in "Brave New World Revisited" and even goes back to the Ancient
Greeks -- his notion was that you could completely erase personality by regressing an individual back to
an infantile state - process he called de-patterning. Then you could program that individual with a new
personality - a process he called psychic driving. In order to destroy the original personality, Cameron
put his subjects to sleep for up to two months, injected them with LSD, mescaline and other
psychoactive chemicals, and essentially engaged in a form of regression therapy. Age regression may be
a hypnotic phenomenon, but in this sense regression was an actual regression. This was the attempt to
manipulate people back to a state of infantilism. These were people who came to him who were
depressed ... this was the local psychiatric institute. This is where you went when you needed help. One
of the people who came to him, I don't have a slide of her, but I have done some TV shows with her, was
the wife of a Member of the Canadian Parliament, Val Orlikow was her name. She is dead now. Val had
just had a baby and she was suffering from post-partum depression. This meant she didn't feel she was
able to care for her baby, or for herself, and in general she was feeling unequal to the task of wifehood
and motherhood, and her husband suggested maybe she could benefit from some psychiatric care, and
she thought that was a good idea. They made the mistake of winding up going to Ewen Cameron and
Cameron destroyed her life. She along with 10 or 11 other people ultimately sued the Canadian
government and the CIA because the CIA contributed funding to Cameron's experiments. SIXTY
MINUTES did a show on this that I show from time to time. One of the people went there because he
was feeling badly, and he went through the same kind of process, and they later discovered he had a
minor skin disease and a single shot of cortisone would have cured it. His life was ruined, and as he put
it, "Where do I go for help? I don't trust any psychologists, or psychiatrists or therapists any more after
what they did to me, and I know I need their help, but I am programmed to not trust them, so where do I
go for relief?"
The experiments have been written about in detail in a number of books. This is the least reliable,
Gordon Thomas' "Journey Into Madness". Harder to find, a Canadian book "I Swear By Apollo" is more
accurate. Perhaps the best of the books is Anne Collins', "In the Sleep Room". In some ways the most
compelling and the most, I wouldn't want to say important, but the one that is most emotional perhaps, is
Harvey Weinstein's, "A Father, A Son and the CIA". This is the Canadian edition. There is a slightly
revised version printed by the American Psychiatric Press, "Psychiatry and the CIA". Harvey's father
was one of those people who was depressed and went into the Allen Memorial Institute as a human
being and came out as a vegetable. He never did become a whole human being again. Indeed, it was
what happened to his father that led Harvey into psychiatry and Harvey's conclusion is something that
should be read by everybody in the mental health field. "After all of the knowledge of the CIA
experiments, and the Army experiments and Air Force and Navy experiments have come out, after all of
what we know ... NOT A SINGLE RESEARCHER HAS BEEN SUBJECTED TO A SINGLE LAW
SUIT OR EVEN CENSURE BY A PROFESSIONAL ORGANIZATION FOR WORK THAT WAS
CLEARLY ILLEGAL AND CLEARLY UNETHICAL, EVEN AT THE TIME. THE MESSAGE
MUST BE, IF THERE ARE NO CONSEQUENCES TO DOING THIS KIND OF WORK, THE
WORK WILL CONTINUE." And indeed, this is most likely what has happened. Harvey's conclusion is
that if the professional organizations are not going to step up and condemn this kind of experimentation,
then it will be repeated and other generations will suffer the horror that his family suffered.
Cameron's experiment was simply considered a part of a series of brainwashing tests to regress people
back to this infantile state. Now the Greeks had sleep temples that had a similar focus, but modern
technology added to Cameron's work. He used a tape loop. He would interview an individual. You have
heard about Erikson's "power words" ... Cameron would use words that were important to his patients,
and he would program those words in messages that he would construct on tape loops that would be
played into their brain one half a million, to a million to a million and a half times ... in fact these people
were quite literally "programmed".
In a state of infantilism Cameron wrote that they could endure sensory deprivation indefinitely, whereas
most people would crack in about 8 hours, those people could stay there indefinitely. The psychic
driving in which the tape loops were used was the attempt to reconstruct the personality and I wondered
where such a fiendish idea would have come from and I found it in a 1951 science fiction novel called
"The Demolished Man" by Alfred Bester, and if you are a science fiction buff I certainly encourage you
to find that book and read it. Basically the theory of the novel is that when somebody commits a crime,
that shows a certain boldness that society should appreciate, but it's in the wrong direction. What they do
is take criminals to the hospital and they regress them back to infantilism and then they re-build a new
personality -- exactly the idea that Cameron was working on with his subject had been written about a
few years before he began as a science fiction novel. I won't ever know if he had read that novel, but the
studies from his work shows that it did not work and indeed it caused a great deal of pain to a great
number of people.
The idea of manipulating people with hypnosis in ways that are effective, and in ways that are quite
bizarre, was born in the brain of George Estabrooks. Estabrooks, a very interesting character, was
working in Morton Prince's laboratory at Harvard in the 1920's and he had the idea that if you could cure
a multiple personality with hypnosis, maybe you could create one with hypnosis. Why in the world
would anyone want to create a multiple personality? Estabrooks had the solution. You could create then,
a super spy or a super assassin, somebody who would do the bidding of his country and have no
knowledge that he was engaged in those acts. Estabrooks said in 1928 that "...my views are somewhat
different than most psychologists. I believe the hypnotist's power to be unlimited, or rather only to be
limited by his intelligence and his scruples." In the 1920's he went around trying to convince the military
to create hypnotically controlled individuals, create a multiple personality and use that one as a courier.
They thought he was crazy and ignored him until the Moscow Show Trials, and then they took him
seriously, and in the archives of his work at Colgate ... there is a notation that he stopped publishing in
the mid-1930's because his work had then become classified. If you read his book, this is Morton
Prince's "Dissociation of a Personality" ... the classic work on multiple personality ... if you read
Estabrooks' book "Hypnotism" through its various editions, what you discover is that each edition is
more assertive about the validity of creating hypnotically programmed couriers and finally in an
interview he gave in a local Rhode Island newspaper in 1963, he claims that, "... this is not science
fiction, it is fact, I have done it." Working for the FBI and the CIA, he would create a multiple
personality, program that personality to be a courier, send that personality somewhere in the world have
them return and be amnesic for all of that.
The idea may have originated with Estabrooks but he may not have been the first to actually publish it as
such. Writing in "The Psychoanalytic Review" of 1947, Major Harvey Leavitt of the U.S. Army Medical
Corps described the hypnotic creation of a secondary personality, "... hypnotically induced automatic
writing was established early in the course of treatment as a means of expeditiously gaining access to
unconscious material. After this procedure as utilized for a time, a hypnotic secondary personality was
produced by suggesting that the writing was under control of a certain part of his personality unaware to
him." Leavitt then said that he created another personality in direct contrast to the one already
established so he could work the two created personalities off against one another. He concluded, "...
regardless of whether the production of multiple personalities by means of hypnosis could be construed
as additional proof that hypnosis is an artificially induced hysteria or whether the multiple personalities
were artificial entities resulting from direct suggestions ... there exists a close relationship with
personalities spontaneously arising in hysterical dissociation. The importance of producing multiple
personalities experimentally lies in the fact that certain elements of the original personality may be
isolated which manifest a minimum of censorship influences and thus may serve as helpful ajuncts in
hypno- analysis."
That was not the purpose for the intelligence agencies in working with the idea of creating a multiple
personality. The story of the intelligence agencies creating multiple personalities to use as couriers and
assassins may have begun with Estabrooks, and indeed in CIA documents you can see Estabrooks'
theories worked out and discussed, but the genesis of the work begins in 1951 in the CIA Office of
Security where an official named Morris Allen got the idea that CIA agents should be trained in
hypnosis and in order to train them in hypnosis, he arranged with them to go up to New York and get
training from a stage hypnotist. As soon as he and the agents got to New York, the stage hypnotist spent
an hour and a half with them, regaling them with tales of hypnotic seduction - of how when the
hypnotist went on the road, the he would sleep with a different woman each night - some of them he
would give hypnotic hallucinations that he was their husband, others he would use other techniques - but
this was a technique he had found very productive for his own sexual favours. The CIA was of course
delighted to hear all of this and reported so in the documents. If he could use the technique to manipulate
people that way, this was what they wanted to learn and so that's how they got trained.
Then from 2-3,000 pages of documentation going from 1951 to 1954 - Morse Allen and his group
replicated all of the known hypnosis experiments involving people putting their hands in acid or jars of
snakes, in shooting people dead, involving the French and Germans - there are all of those experiments
American researchers, Estabrooks and others had conducted. But they (CIA) wanted to go further and
explore the possibility of using hypnosis to create a programmed courier and a programmed assassin.
The multiple personality itself may have come from Jekyll and Hyde which was very popular at the
time. Another illustration of that idea in which two entirely different people can be within the same body
- one being the embodiment of good, the other the embodiment of evil. It was good fiction, but it also
was part of the genesis from Morton Prince's work. {slide: an Italian depiction of multiple personality -
you can see the two faces pointing in other directions}
By the 1950's, the popular press was reporting in "The Three Faces of Eve", the existence of multiple
personality - the three faces of course were more than three faces - and the final face was not the final
face. Eve was Chris Sizemore finally telling the story with her real name and then telling it again in "A
Mind of Her Own". Well, her mind may be her own, but her life isn't. She is now suing the film
company which claims that the movie, "The Three Faces of Eve", means they own the story of her life.
She claims they only own up to the time she had three faces, and that the other faces still belong to her.
So she is still not in control of her identity and the fight goes on. [slide: here she is in person}
Sybil was then the next known or highly reported case of multiple personality disorder. Herb Spiegel
tells me that Sybil was not a multiple, and that when he treated her in Cornelia Wilbur's absence, that
Sybil never had any need to express any other personalities with Herb. Herb admits she was brilliant,
and also extremely mentally ill, but that she was not a multiple, and he refused to participate in the
writing or publishing of the book if that was the spin they were going to take on her case. On the other
hand Herb believes that multiples exist, but that the condition is extremely rare and so people have
argued that she was smart enough to know he wouldn't believe it, and therefore smart enough to know to
conceal the personalities so the debate goes on.
The use of hypnosis to create multiple personalities and in general for intelligence purposes appears in a
number of confidential secret documents just a few of which I will throw up on the screen. Some stories
have leaked out about how the CIA hid it, and they didn't tell anybody about it. It's very simple. The
CIA explodes the old theory of hypnotic moral curb. They came to the conclusion that people can be
induced to do things that would violate their moral codes, and the folklore that you can't get people to do
things against their will was simply untrue, and they carried those experiments further in to study ways
to create unwitting killers. CIA documents tell of a 1954 project to create involuntary assassins. This is
the end product of Morse Allen's work. By 1954 he had exploded the moral code theory; he had
replicated all of the experiments of hypnotic coercision; and had conducted other experiments on his
own, but all of these were in fact laboratory type experiments. He wanted to do more and see whether
operational use could be put to these principles. His group prepared a film called, "THE BLACK ART".
In the film, an "Oriental Character" is having a drink with an American agent. A drug is surreptitiously
placed in the drink that causes the Oriental man to fall asleep. While dozing, he is hypnotized and
programmed. The CIA had already experimented on hypnotizing people in sleep conditions and so forth.
The next scene shows the Oriental man opening a safe that contains secret files. He removes the files
and brings them to an American agent who reinforces the hypnotic suggestion. At this point, there is a
voiceover by a narrator who asks, "Could what you have seen been accomplished without the
individual's knowledge? Yes. Against the individual's will? Yes. With complete amnesia of performing
the act? Yes. How? Through the powers of suggestion and hypnosis."
Again by 1954, Morse Allen was pushing hard to have operational tests of the thesis that you could
construct a multiple personality and have that personality commit crimes, come back, and have no
knowledge in the host that that act had been committed. In other words, The Manchurian Candidate
scenario had been worked out by the CIA five years before the novel was published.
But would it work? In order to know whether it worked, you had to conduct what Morse Allen called
"terminal experiments". These were experiments that could result in the death of the subject. The CIA
gave clearance for those experiments to be done and in reference to one researcher who was asked if he
would participate in them, he said, "if you set up terminal experiments, I will do them for free." By
1954, the literature demonstrates that Morse Allen's concerns had reached the higher levels of the CIA
and that they were willing to engage in a field test for the Manchurian Candidate type scenario. By
January, 1954, an ARTICHOKE memo says, "Could an individual of a certain descent be made to
perform an act of attempted assassination involuntarily under the influence of ARTICHOKE?" Then
later in the memo it says, as a trigger mechanism for an even bigger project, the CIA proposed that, "an
individual of a certain descent, approximately 35 years old, well educated, proficient in English, and
well established socially and politically in a foreign government be induced under ARTICHOKE to
perform an act involuntarily of attempted assassination against a prominent foreign politician or if
necessary, against an American official."
It was clear then, by summer of 1954, that the ARTICHOKE team said we can create an artificial
personality, program that personality to conduct an assassinatiion, that assassination would occur. If in
fact the individual was captured, he would never reveal the knowledge that he had engaged in the
assassination, the host would know nothing about the alter, the amnesia would be impenetrable, and
even under torture the host would not reveal the secrets. CIA research in many universities around the
country explored topics such as programming people by way of telephone, whether somebody could
answer a telephone, a secret word would be given, they would slip automatically into a trance, nobody
around them would know they were in trance, they wouldn't know they were in trance, so forth.
Experiments on pain, experiments on creating unconscious recorders, experiments were done on
whether people would commit suicide under hypnotic instructions, and so on. Albert Mole had written
one hundred years ago that it would be possible to give people hypnotic instructions to have them
commit suicide. These were the subjects of CIA experiments. What ultimately happened, we don't know
because the government files closed up at the point of reporting on the assassination attempts. But a year
later, in May, 1955, a top secret report called "Hypnotism and Covert Operations begins with the
following paragraph:
"Frankly I now mistrust much of was written by academic experts on hypnotism, partly because this is
because many of them seem to have generalized from a very few cases, and partly because much of their
cautious pessimism is contradicted by Agency experimenters. But more particularly because I have
personally witnessed behavior responses which experts have said are impossible to obtain." By l954, the
Manchurian Candidate scenario had already been thought of and was already under operational testing.
This is Richard Condon who wrote The Manchurian Candidate, as Walter Bowart discovered when he
wrote him, he had no idea he was writing fact. He thought he was writing fiction. The only case that has
come out of the literature that suggests that someone may have been an experimental subject is the
control of Candy Jones. Candy was quite a beautiful woman, second only to Betty Grable. She was a pin-
up girl during WWII, but her artificial personality, Arlene Grant, was programmed by the CIA according
to the book to be a hypnotic courier and she was sent around the world, and occasiionally captured and
tortured. Her last instruction was to have a two week vacation in Berlin and then jump off a cliff. It did
not happen because her husband, John Neville, who was a very famous all night disc jockey in New
York and an amateur hypnotist, shortly after they were married began to feel he had actually married
two different women and could not account for the mood swings and the differences in personality.
Using hypnosis with her, this story unravelled. Candy was sent to Herb Speigel for evaluation. Herb did
a work-up on her using the hypnotic induction profile and other tests, and found she was very very high
in the positive. And while he couldn't conclude that what she was saying was true, he could conclude
that it would be true with her if it were true. In other words, she was the kind of person that this
manipulation would have worked with. The Candy Jones story, which we cannot validate and we cannot
invalidate ... I have seen a CIA file marked "Grant", but I have not been able to get the contents. It may
be true, it may not be true. But the story about hypnotically programming couriers and assassins clearly
is true. That book was published before the CIA documents were made available.
All of this of course violates the Nuremburg Standards but those Standards have had no application in
covert activities. We found a document from the Attorney General of the United States to the Director of
Central Intelligence which said '... if any of your agents are caught during their work, they will not be
prosecuted for crimes' and therefore there is essentially the 007 license to kill that CIA agents will not be
prosecuted for their crimes, therefore Nuremburg Standards do not apply.
It wasn't until the Nelson Rockefeller Report to the President in June, 1975 that we had any inkling
about this material and then basically just a paragraph or maybe even a sentence mentioning mind and
behavior control sent researchers looking for the files. In his testimony before Congress Stansfield
Turner corroborated the existence of the mind control programs.
Some people wrote about them at the time. Peter Watson's book (from England) "The Military Uses and
Abuses of Psychology" touch on but do not give in any detail the experiments done by the CIA and
Army, but do talk in general about the use of psychology for military purposes. The classic works are of
course, Walter Bowart's book, "Operation Mind Control" which is hard to find, and a collector's item, an
extremely important book. John Marks' book, "The Search for the Manchurian Candidate", and my
book, "The Mind Manipulators" -- these were the only three books to appear on the subject of mind and
behavior control by the CIA and the Army experimental programs.
I want to move the story forward some more, from the CIA experiments in the 1950's into the 1960's and
beyond. The 1960's brought us a new variation in operational utilization of the techniques of
brainwashing and sensory deprivation and so forth that had been explored in the 1940's and especially in
the 1950's, and this is the religious cult issue. This is Steve Hassam's book, "Combatting Cult Mind
Control" - there is a revised edition available for sale, probably the best of the deprogramming books on
mind control. But it was in the 1960's that the idea of using these techniques on essentially freestanding
populations was experimented with and the cults provide the laboratory setting for social influence
processes where the people are not taken into complete physical custody. The cults themselves
represent, I think, the step from the laboratory experiments into real world operational use and then
beyond them, there are books like "Mindbending on Cult Deprogramming". Then we move into the
books on satanism and programming. This one I think is available for sale ... "Satan's Children", linking
the multiple personalities with satanism. Can we prove this? Where do we stand with our knowledge of
satanism?
Speaking as a lawyer, it's going to be very rough going to prove a widespread, intergenerational network
of satanic cults in court. Part of the reason for that is the report issued, "In Pursuit of Satan", by Ken
Lanning FBI, who has concluded that though instances of satanic abuse do exist, there is no evidence to
suport intergenerational, widespread, multinational networks of satanic abuse. Also, within the next two
months, the most major study in the country on this issue will reach the same conclusions as Ken
Lanning. And that report is due in about two months. But the tentative conclusion which will be the final
conclusion, will be that Lanning's perception is correct. That the evidence does not exist for
intergenerational satanic cults. Now, the methodology can be challenged, in any event the question of
whether therapists who work with people who claim to be abused in satanic cults should be sued, is a
separate issue from what can be proven.
Is it reasonable for you to believe that widespread satanic abuse occurs? The answer to that I think, is
yes. Despite the Lanning Report and despite the conclusion that will come out later on, it is your job to
believe your patients, at least within the therapy setting, and if they say it happened, then you work
effectively with them by believing that it happened. It's when there is a real world corollary that the
trouble begins. I am using my lawyer hat now. Do not tell your patients to go out and sue their parents or
sue other people. Do not tell them to give newspaper accounts and so on, and to protect yourself in your
clinical notes, say that this is the story your patient told, you have no way of knowing whether it is true
or not, in any event, that's not your function. Your function is to make the person whole with whatever
material they present to you. As long as you do not advise that they do not go out and sue other people,
you can advise them to seek legal help if they say, "should I sue?" You say, "that's not my job, I am not
a lawyer ... you should go to a lawyer and see what the lawyer thinks ... I will support you in this session
whatever you decide to do ... but what you decide to do in the outside world is a decision that must be
made by you and other professionals, not by me." As long as you do that, there should be no legal
liability. If your patient sues you for believing all the crap that you are being told, in your notes
somewhere should be "it's not my job to evaluate the historical validity of this information, but I will
work with it as if it is true, because for my client at this point in time it is true." That should protect you.
There are isolated instances, there is also a large accumulation of information from local police
departments who are not as influencable as the FBI - the FBI did deny the existence of the Mafia - when
I went to an FBI friend of mine who oversees the Behavioral Science program there - I said why does
the FBI deny the existence of widespread satanism - he looked at me and said they also denied the
existence of the Mafia. Their conclusions can be rebutted in court by a lot of data from local police that
have found ritualistic killings. The book "Mortal Remains" is an illustration of a case in Massachusetts
where the borns were found where a satanic cult was practicing ritual murder. There are instances in
which it can be proven. The existence of satanism is provable for over many centuries and the existence
of cults and mind control programming is provable beyond question. For therapists to believe that there
are some cults that are satanic is true, to believe that those satanic cults may be more widespread than
we think or thought beforehand is reasonable, to believe that they engage in a bunch of horrendous
practices - look what the Nazi experimenters did and look what Ewen Cameron did and how can you say
there is a limit on human depravity? It is not unreasonable to believe that these kinds of things can
occur, and in any event, when you work with trauma, you work more effectively by believing the story
that it has come from.
Let's go further. In breaking bodies and minds, the role of psychiatric abuse and mental health
professionals in creating torture victims and mind control victims is discussed - the complicity between
torturers and professionals who help them to torture has been documented - this is the Irving Janus
report from 1949 that validated the use of hypnosis as part of conditioning techniques being used by the
Soviets; Rand report in 1958 again reaches the same conclusions; the involvement of hypnosis and other
forms of programming - the book "Why Men Confess" is written by a former Assistant Attorney General
of the United States, traces modern mind control back to the Malleus Maleficorum through the Moscow
Show Trials and other places. It's a good legitimate source for understanding the modern "False
Memory" stuff which I will get to right now.
There has been only one completely litigated case involving false memory. Can you implant false
memories? Of course. We knew that 100 years ago. We have come a long way since then as you can see
in this talk. This is Eileen Franklin and her daughter - this case is the only criminal case that has gone to
trial in which repressed memory played a major role. She claimed that her father killed her friend, Susan
Nasen. The story that Eileen Franklin tells us, that she was looking into her daughter's eyes one day and
suddenly the image of watching her father kill her friend Susan (when Susan was 8 years old twenty
years earlier) came into her mind, and then the memories started to flood back about that experience.
{This is her father when he was arrested. Take a good look at him. Here is at trial on the right.} You
learn a lesson about lawyering. That's his lawyer on the left. You clean up the client. You don't bring
him into court looking like that ... you bring him in looking like that - on the right. You can introduce
pictures but it is not as powerful as the present appearance.
The Franklin case is a very troubling one, and we have to be very honest about that because we are first
and foremost scientists, and unlike the False Memory, do not need to have a political agenda here.
Eileen Franklin is a liar. She told four different stories about the genesis of her memory one of which
was that she was hypnotized in therapy. If that story were true, she would have been disqualified as a
witness in California courts. When she learned that, or we hypothesize that when she learned that, she
went back to her brother and said I told you I had been hypnotized. Forget that. That's tampering with
evidence. She told actually four different stories about how she recovered her memories, and that's
grounds to disbelieve her because there is clear evidence of lying in the way she presented herself. On
the other hand the fact that she is a liar does not mean that the story she told is false. The False Memory
make that assumption but that's bad logic. They may be right that she's a liar and her story is false, but
you cannot make that jump as a logical matter. On the other hand her father is ... my first real knowledge
of the case came from a cab ride with Beth Loftus on my left and David Spiegel on my right in Chicago
when Beth and I were both plenary speakers at the ISSMPD in Chicago a few years back. Both of them
had just come from testifying in the case, both of them testified against Eileen Franklin and each of them
in the cab in my presence concluded that if her story were true, and it might be true, it would have been
true of this man. This man physically abused his son and sexually molested his daughters. He had a
violent past. It is well documented. When he was arrested he had a large collection of child
pornography. He had an active correspondence to have sexual relations with their seven and eight year
old daughters. He had pictures of those activities involving him.
Her memories may be true, and they may not be true. He is the kind of person it would be true of. It was
independent physical corroboration of his pedophilia, of his violence, and the fact that this is the kind of
man who would have committed that sadistic molesting and murder. It is the up to the jury then to
decide if that evidence is enough. But her repressed memory was not the only basis of the testimony.
The defence argued that everything she remembered was available in a newspaper somewhere. She had
no independent memory of anything apart from what was in a newspaper somewhere and that point was
made to the jury. The jury convicted, and Franklin, the father, is now in jail for life. The California
courts have rejected his appeal and his lawyers have filed a motion in federal district court. They have
imported Richard Ofshe, a specialist in social influence to work over the mother who testified against
her husband in the trial and she has now changed her mind. Of course, this is not an unusual
phenomenon. Now that he is in jail and she can have recriminations she might have changed her mind
anyway, but the introduction of a social influence specialist with a political agenda to spend a lot of time
with her to reach the certain conclusion, seems to me if there is a new trial is a point that will be raised at
that new trial.
What I found very interesting is I interviewed the prosecutor, his lawyer, and his appellate lawyer and in
their brief on appeal, the appellate lawyers wrote that ... no responsible person would believe that the
concept of robust repression was false ... in other words the Ofshe/ Singer hypothesis that you cannot
forget traumatic events over a sustained period of time and that it is the "scientific quackery of the
twentieth century" is, in the opinion of these lawyers, irresponsible thinking, and I agree. The evidence
shows that the Ofshe/Singer hypothesis is wrong. The evidence comes from biological studies of
memory and how the brain processes traumatic memories differently than ordinary memories and it also
explains how Loftus' research on normal memory is irrelevant to the issue of traumatic memory, a point
which she is now reluctantly starting to recognize.
Is Eileen Franklin on trial? Is Freud dead? If you knock out the notion of robust repression as the False
Memory people have been trying to do, you have a very simplistic idea. If a person can be repeatedly
traumatized as a child, have no adult recollection of that trauma, go into therapy and then have a
recollection, then the therapist must have implanted it if robust repression is not real ... So the existence
of robust repression as the underpinning of the scientific foundation for the False Memory argument is
quite crucial, but that argument is now shown to be scientifically invalid which doesn't mean that the
False Memory position is wrong. They are right about what therapists should be doing and shouldn't be
doing - on the issues of social influence procedures - but they are wrong about the robust repression.
That means that somebody can go to a therapist and have that memory refreshed and that memory can
be true
And then memory can be true. Which makes it a harder case, the world is no longer black and white.
You cannot use the iatrogenic cause argument in every case of robust repression. The Father Porter cases
are an illustration of robust repression, memories that were recovered without hypnotic intervention and
in the absence of a therapeutic encounter. You may know the Father Porter story. My time is short, so I
can't go through it with you now. In any event he recovered the memories of having been molested. He
was able to validate those memories as to himself and Father Porter is now in jail having confessed to
having molested between 50 and 100 young boys and girls. In the search for the unravelling of the
human mind, mind control is real. It has a rich history. I have only given you a fraction of the history.
We haven't touched on the physiological or pharmacological aspects. We haven't talked about behavior
modification and conditioning techniques, and so forth, we have just concentrated on the issues that are
closer to the work that you will be doing. We haven't talked about social influence theories in general,
but the existence of mind control its work in secret laboratories, its work in CIA and Army experiments,
its spilling over into religious cult settings, and its use in freestanding populations are all validated and
that ought to give mind control the kind of respectability it deserves, and give you the background to
believe the kinds of stories that your patients are telling you as at least possible. Thank you.
You have been listening to a lecture by Dr. Alan Scheflin, "The History of Mind Control: What we can
prove, and what we can't". CKLN 88.1 on this series on Mind Control. Next week we are going to be
featuring an interview with Claudia Mullen, Valerie Wolf and Chris Ebner the day that they had given
the mind control testimony to the President's Advisory Committee on Human Radiation Experiments in
March 1995. If you have missed any of the shows, stay tuned for this message and find out how you can
remedy that. CKLN is rebroadcasting a ground-breaking radio series, Mind Control in Canada, currently
airing on the Sunday morning show, The International Connection. Starting June 2nd on alternative
radion, Monday nights from l0pm to llpm, the eight month radio series, Mind Control in Canada, will be
aired. This series looks into the Canadian and U.S. government history of mind control experimentation,
and particularly the experiments done to children in creating programmed multiple personalities by
means of severe trauma and abuse. If allegations of the survivors are true, and what government
documentation would point to, the leaders, intelligence agencies and militaries of North America have
been using mind control for political, military and criminal purposes for decades. To hear interviews and
lectures with survivors, researchers and therapists on this important topic, tune into CKLN 88.1 FM
Monday evenings 10pm to 11pm for re-broadcasts or Sunday mornings, 9.30am to 10.30am for the
breaking story on mind control.
Contents

Cluadia Mullen
Presentation & Interview

Producer: Wayne Morris
Contents
Introduction
Claudia Mullen - Presentation at the Believe the Children Conference
Claudia Mullen - Interview with Wayne Morris
Closing Comments
Introduction

Wayne Morris:
Good morning. You have tuned into the International Connections for another Sunday. We are
continuing on with our series on mind control and this week we are going to be featuring a presentation
done by Claudia Mullen at the recent Believe the Children Conference in Chicago in April of 1997,
where she describes her growing up in an atmosphere of an abusive mother and her mother involving her
in mind control experiments at Tulane University in New Orleans. Claudia Mullen also gave testimony
about mind control to the Presidential Advisory Committee on Human Radiation experiments in March
of 1995. You will hear her refer to Multiple Personality Disorder, or Dissociative Identity Disorder
which is the new term for Multiple Personality and we have heard in previous shows how severe trauma
can cause dissociation or multiple personalities in some children, and how multiple personalities have
been used by the CIA to create programmed agents for government intelligence and the military. The
second half of this hour, we will be starting an interview I did with Claudia and that will continue on for
the next two weeks after. You are listening to 88.l CKLN.
Contents
Presentation at the Believe the Children Conference

Claudia Mullen:
Hello and thank you for coming this afternoon. You will pardon me if I am a little bit nervous, but ... I
see some friendly faces out there so that makes it better. Let's see if I can figure out how to turn this on.
Can you all read that? It says, "It is 1953. How much is a child's mind worth?" If you picture this with
me - this little girl - she is not quite three years old. She has been adopted when she was two and a half
years old. She's been in an orphanage til then, from the time she was born. They called them infant
asylums back then. She was adopted this prominent, wealthy family in New Orleans and she has been
preparing for this picture for about three weeks now, and the way she prepared is ... her "Monster
Mom" (that's what she calls the Mommy who adopted her) ... Monster Mom has been letting her go
outside every day and play in the sandbox completely naked, so she gets "brown as a berry" all over and
her towhead gets even blonder. She is not really sure why this is important, but she is going to get her
picture taken. So the day has come. Monster Mom puts on her little sundress and her tennis shoes and
the charm bracelet her godmother gave her and she goes outside in the backyard and there is a strange
man out there in the backyard, with a camera.
The little girl is very, very nervous (just like me) because, see, everything in her life has to be
completely controlled. Everything has to be according to how her mother wants it to be, otherwise there
are serious repercussions. She gets hurt real bad. Plus Monster Mom likes to do yucky things to her that
she doesn't really understand but it's all part of life. Actually by the time she was about twenty months
old she lived in the orphanage asylum - she started to have imaginary friends. They talked to her,
comforted her and now she has a few more imaginary friends who sometimes come out when Mommy
does these yucky things, or she gets punished for spilling her milk or not washing her hands. Mommy
says "now you be a good girl, and don't make Mommy mad because you know what will happen. You
will go back to the orphan asylum." She has always been told that's what will happen if she's bad.
Mommy can always hold that over her head, and she does until she's a teenager and her Mommy dies.
Anyhow, she gets ready for the picture and already she's completely controlled, and she stands there,
ready to smile because Mommy says "smile for the man" and she tips her head like she always does and
she smiles, and all of a sudden the little strap on her sundress falls down and she doesn't know what she's
going to do because this means Monster Mom is going to get really really mad because she didn't want
this happening. Instead, something really strange happens. Mommy comes up and looks at her, and says
"perfect", and pulls the strap down a little bit more. Just like that she says, "okay take a picture. Smile."
And she smiles. The reason Mommy wanted to take a picture was to send it to all her society friends that
she wants to be in with, because she is what you might call a social climber. The little girl doesn't
realize, until years later, what Mommy was really doing. She was advertising her daughter that she had
adopted. This wonderful thing that she had done for this little girl, and she was basically, I guess you
could say auctioning her, advertising her. Pretty soon after the picture had gone out, the little girl started
having to spend the night at people's houses - people that were real rich and lived on St. Charles Avenue
and belonged to all the best carnival crews, came to parties at their house. But they didn't have any
children. Still the little girl had to spend the night at their houses and let the daddy over there do what he
wanted, and she couldn't complain because you had to do what grownups told you. That's just the way
life was. There wasn't any such thing as "no" or "I don't want to" or "ooh that's yucky ... that makes me
feel bad". So this is what life is pretty much like.
Monster Mom finally gets what she really wants and that's to be good friends with the "most prominent
society man" in the city of New Orleans because he just happens to be Captain of the most exclusive
carnival crew, "Rex". If anybody has been in Mardi Gras, you know what Rex is. Monster Mom has now
become good friends with Mr. Fenner who is this rich society man and the little girl is starting to spend a
lot of time with Mr. Fenner and some of his friends, and pretty soon she starts going to the camp that
Mr. Fenner runs all year long across the lake in Covington, Louisiana and it's at one of his summer
homes, and there are other little boys and girls there and they do strange things and men come over and
they have parties at night and they pass around the little girls and boys just like they were appetisers at a
party. Except for the very first Christmas when she was adopted and when she was eleven years old, she
doesn't ever spend Christmas at home again, or her birthday. Both times she is always over at the camp.
Easter, Hallowe'en and right up to before school starts in August. Nobody ever asks, "why isn't she ever
home for Christmas? Where is she?" Her big sister who is five years older than her, and is not adopted,
and doesn't have to go to camp, never dares to ask "why isn't my little sister home for Christmas? Why
didn't she get any Christmas presents?" Because she has to be at camp, but nobody asks, not even her
adopted daddy. Now she has lots of daddies and uncles. Now the little girl is really being controlled, her
mind, her body because basically the way her life is, she does what the grownups tell her and she's a
good girl and it doesn't hurt too much. It might hurt a little, or it might hurt a lot at times, but then it's
over with, and that's the way life is until she's in second grade. She goes to this exclusive all girls
Catholic school which she was very lucky to get into. Before that she went to pre-school at Tulane
University which just happens to be one of the most prestigious universities in the South and where Mr.
Fenner, Mommy's society friend, is Chairman of the Board and he is also very good friends with Dr.
Robert Heath, who is the head of the Neuropsychiatric Department at Tulane and who happens to be
good friends with people who work for the government, with the President and for something called the
CIA. She has no idea what that means.
By the time she is in second grade, she is told she is being tested, her personality, her memory. She is
told she has a very good memory - they didn't even know how good her memory was because actually
one of her little imaginary friends had a camera in her hair and she took pictures and she recorded
everything that everybody that she had to be with, everybody that she had to be nice to, everybody that
tested her. Anyhow, she is told she is being tested to see if she can go away to this camp, and she goes
"oh no, camp" but this sounds like a really nice camp because it is all the way in the mountains, and it is
far away from home, away from Monster Mom, away from Mr. Fenner's camp, and she might be going
there if she passed her tests. Some of the tests are ... well there are doctors who come from all over the
country to test her. They do some pretty horrible things to her and they want to test her for pain, and like
I said, memory, personality and also to see who she gets along with the best. It turns out she gets along
with older men, "daddies" or "uncles". That's who she responded to the best. So she's told, :well you've
been accepted to this camp".
She goes away the next summer for three weeks, in August, to a place called Deep Creek Lodge in
Maryland. She takes the train with a bunch of strangers that she doesn't know and there are other
children on the train but she happens to be the youngest one so they want her to sleep in the club cars
where they stayed up all night drinking and talking about something called "projects" and doctors and
"deputy directors" and people like that. She's supposed to be asleep but really the little girl inside of her
with the camera in her head is taking down everything that she hears. So she gets to this camp. It really
is the nicest three weeks of her entire life so far because nobody really hurts her there, she doesn't get
any shots except for antibiotic she is told so she doesn't get any infection. She doesn't get any electricity
in her head, nothing that bruises her and the best part is she got to pick a daddy to be with during the
three weeks and the daddy was going to teach her something very important and this was for her country
and she was doing the President of the United States a big favour and helping to stop Communism.
That's what this is all about and she feels special, very important. And so she does her best. She gets to
pick this man ... they match them together. There are other children there ... there's girls even younger
than her ... boys, can't forget the boys ... teenagers and a few young women, but mostly children ... and
they all get paired up with an adult and spend the three weeks training.
What training means is that every day, Uncle Otto (that's what this man calls himself) he's a doctor, he's
from Kansas ... other than that she doesn't know anything about him except that he is very nice to her.
She is going to ask if she can go home with him afterwards. They let her pick a name because, see when
she goes to Tulane to get all these tests and treatment -- oh yeah, she was told she behaved badly at
home because she wet her bed and she used to cry a lot and sometimes she touched herself where she
wasn't supposed to. She did these "abnormal" things so her mother had brought her to Tulane - that's
how they got her into Tulane, was to say she had childhood schizophrenia and aberrant behavior,
whatever that means. Anyhow - she spent three weeks and basically they went swimming, no clothes,
they didn't wear clothes hardly at all. She ate every meal with this man, slept every night with him, and
during the day he taught her basically what he said was, "how to please daddies". It was kind of yucky
and she didn't really like it, but at least it didn't hurt, it didn't make her bleed, so that made her happy.
The only bad part was that at the end of the three weeks, she had passed, they told her she did a very
good job - oh - and every evening they would watch these movies - the little girl doesn't like to see
herself in movies because she never has any clothes on, always has these daddies or uncles who are
doing things to her in the movies. Sometimes there were other children - boys, girls, animals, you name
it. Every evening Uncle Otto and little Ava (she named herself after Ava Gardner because she loved
movie stars) they would watch these movies and see how well she did. And what she was supposed to
do, besides pleasing the daddies was she was told she had to do something called coercing which meant
make them talk about themselves. Make them tell you about their fancy homes, how many children they
have, how much money their wives spent shopping, and sure enough these different daddies would come
in from out of town when she wasn't with Uncle Otto and they would talk about themselves, and some of
them even said "you're about the same age as my little girl". Years later when the little girl would start to
remember she would be very sad because she would think "well, those little girls at home, they were
probably glad that daddy was away". Anyhow, she finishes her three weeks, and they throw a party to
celebrate that the "project" was a success. It was called "Sensitive Research" and it came under
something called an MKULTRA. On the last night a lot of people flew in from out of town on little itty
bitty planes, very rich men, people that worked with the President of the United States, people in
uniforms, and they all got drunk, and once again, the little girl got passed around like she was an hors
d'oeuvre. It was a terrible night and it lasted forever and at the end of it she should have been in the
hospital, but she wasn't. She was on the train back to New Orleans and she was pretty well - she should
have been in intensive care actually - they sent her home and she had to go to Tulane Hospital and she
stayed there while she recovered and then it was over and she never went back to that camp. Because
she learned what she was supposed to learn and this was what she was supposed to do. This was going to
be her job to help her country.
The funny thing was though, this went on for years and when she got home from her "treatments" at
Tulane and sometimes treatments meant she took trips to places where there were airplanes and military
people in uniforms, had wings on their jackets. When she came home, she couldn't remember what
happened at the hospital. She knew she went somewhere because she had this thing called schizophrenia
which you don't talk about because you don't want anyone to know "my child sees a psychiatrist" - that
would be horrible. That was another big secret she had to keep. She had a lot of secrets she had to keep.
She doesn't really like doing that, but it's part of life. Doesn't every little girl keep secrets? Doesn't every
little girl have to please daddies and uncles? Doesn't every little girl have monsters in her life? She
thought so. She also thought everybody had imaginary friends inside of them that had different names,
and looked different, even had different hair than her, some were strong, some were littler than her. She
thought everybody had these things, she didn't know any different. The strange thing was though she
never remembered, she could never remember and that's because they would put what they said was
electricity in her head and that hurt. It would always give her bad headaches and when she got home her
mother would give her this liquid medicine they had given her to make her sleepy. So that's how they
made her forget. Supposedly she was supposed to forget forever, but she was told that since doctors
were next to god, she was always supposed to go back to the doctors if she started having headaches or
nightmares, and sometimes she would have horrible nightmares. She would walk in her sleep. Monster
Mom would call the doctors and say "she's doing something again, I can't control her". She stays in a
crib until she is eight years old to try and keep her from wandering around the house at night and she is
still wetting the bed, uses a bottle sometimes when her Mom wants to make her feel ashamed of herself.
When she goes to school she has to wear little boys undershirts and these things called leggings that look
like pantyhose, flesh colored, they hid the bruises and the marks. The kids just knew that she wore these
funny clothes and they made fun of her. That was part of life too. Being the odd one. Being different
than other kids. At least she was special. That's what the doctors and soldiers always told her.
Life pretty much goes on only the older she gets, the worse it gets and the harder it is to please the
daddies. By the time she is 13, her adopted daddy who never did anything to stop it, and she is pretty
sure didn't really know what was going on but never really asked, and he was scared to death of his own
wife - he dies, and she feels very bad about that and they tell her it was her fault that he died. It was just
another way to control her. I forgot to tell you about the visit before she went away to camp - in the
mountains - the man, Mr. Fenner, the Chairman of the Board at Tulane - who she used to call "The
Magister" when she went across the lake to his camp - she couldn't call him Mr. Fenner. They all wore
masks and costumes and they didn't know who each other was supposedly, and the children weren't
supposed to know who they were. They wore Mardis Gras costumes and that wasn't strange because,
hey everybody knows about Mardis Gras it just didn't seem to be Mardis Gras time. He had paid a visit
to Monster Mom one day and right in front of the little girl he says words like, "we need to toughen her
up - pain - water - punishment - locking her in a closet - dark - need to toughen her up". That's all she
can remember. After that Monster Mom got really bad and punished her. Life is pretty bad, but then
again she didn't have to really go through all of this because she had imaginary friends to help her and
she got to go away - that's what she called it, "going away" and hiding in her safe place.
By the time she was sixteen, Monster Mom dies, finally. Everybody goes "oh poor thing, losing your
mother when you are only 16" and she's so happy inside but she has to look sad and cry. And it doesn't
mean she still doesn't have to go for treatments or go to the hotel rooms that these people who work for
the government and for the president. These keep these two rooms at these fancy hotels in New Orleans
and she had been trained when she was 9 years old to please these daddies ... so she would go in the
hotel room and spend the night or a couple of hours with them ... and she was even showed by Captain
White, who wore a gun and came from California ... she was shown how they had two bathrooms in the
room. One bathroom was hidden and there was a camera behind the mirror and it always opposite was
across from the bed. And the room didn't look any different than any other room except it was a fancy
room and some people from out of town and politicians - just about anybody you could think of - she
would have to stay with them and she had to do a good job, and she had to get them to talk about
themselves, and she had to make sure that they looked in the mirror. "The Martini Man" - that's what she
called the man who took the pictures -
This goes on until she graduates from high school and when she goes to pick her college, she tries to get
as far away from New Orleans as she can. She doesn't even know why, she just knows I've got to get out
of here, and she goes to college, and it got better, and she only had to see the doctors and the daddies
now and then, it wasn't as often. Her Monster Mom wasn't there so a lot of times she would just run
away and hide - take the car and go some place and go to a friend's place or something and hide out - but
she still had to go back and mainly do her job, being in the movies with the men, and getting them to
talk about themselves, because it was "ammunition" to use against them if they ran out of money. All
she knew was Tulane needed a lot of money and this was how they kept the money coming in. They had
these films that went to somebody in Virginia and they kept them and if the people wouldn't give any
more money for the "projects" then I guess they would tell them, well we have this film.
Imagine this little girl 40 years later, walking into this exclusive hotel called The Madison, in
Washington, D.C. only she's all grown up now only she doesn't have any children, they made sure she
couldn't have kids so they wouldn't have to bother with her getting pregnant. She walks in and she is just
one of the crowd, one of the audience, but she feels like scared, nervous, like I am. She goes in but when
she leaves the room, her life is never the same again, because she has been asked to give testimony in
front of a presidential committee on radiation.
Contents
Interview with Wayne Morris

Wayne Morris:
I am speaking with Claudia Mullen, a survivor of U.S. government mind control experimentation and
operation. Thanks very much for joining us today Claudia.
Claudia Mullen:
You are welcome, and thank you very much for having me on the show.
Wayne Morris:
We heard some of your testimony that was given to the Presidential hearings on radiation experiments in
1995. How did you get involved in testifying at those hearings?
Claudia Mullen:
Well, I'll tell you. It came about because of the information I had given my therapist as the memories
started coming back to me, and it was obvious that it was more than just abuse by my mother and even
ritual abuse here in New Orleans, but it involved government conspiracy. The information was sent out
by my therapist to some experts across the country to be verified, to see if these people did exist, if there
were such projects, that I was naming names and I had no idea who these people were, my therapist
didn't know who they were. She doesn't do any reading on this type of - any kind of mind control issues
- government conspiracies, that type of thing.
Wayne Morris:
She sent your material out to people that have done research into this?
Claudia Mullen:
To people who were doing research specifically on CIA projects. They were sending back, "yes" these
people did exist. I was sending information that was not published yet or had only been published under
Freedom of Information Act which I had not filed obviously. This information was also sent along to a
man named Wally Cummings, who was in charge of obtaining people who could give testimony in the
Washington hearings.
Wayne Morris:
Was he part of the Human Radiation committee?
Claudia Mullen:
He wasn't actually part of the committee. It was his job to interview, to find people for the public
testimony part. He worked for the Committee. He was interviewing and finding people that had
something to say and he interviewed me over the phone and he had heard that I had been giving some
information that obviously was valid and had to with radiation, and so he asked me if I would be willing
to testify. This was about two weeks before we actually had to testify. I was told that I could speak for
ten minutes, and give as much information as I could. I decided to do it. And I went to Washington and
testified along with my therapist, and one of her other clients.
Wayne Morris:
What was the connection between the radiation experiments and the mind control experiments that were
done to you?
Claudia Mullen:
I had heard a lot about, when I was part of the experiments, they didn't necessarily use a lot of radiation
on me other than to take x-rays to keep me healthy, check for damage, broken bones. But I did overhear
quite a bit about radiation experiments they were doing, especially in New Orleans, or outside of New
Orleans. Obviously it was the same people doing the radiation experiments that were doing experiments
on me. So that was the connection.
Wayne Morris:
This was an incredibly brave thing, to go to the Presidential Hearings and give testimony. Were you
aware that you were, in effect, breaking the silence for a lot of other survivors of mind control at the
time?
Claudia Mullen:
At the time I didn't realize what a step we were taking. It's the type of thing that you just jump in and do
without thinking too much about it, because you're afraid if you think too long or too hard about it, you
might change your mind. You know it's important, but you're not really sure why it's important at the
time. You just know that you need to talk about it and you need to let people know that it did happen. At
the time I didn't feel very brave about it, and I didn't realize the repercussions, and what it would mean
as far as opening the door for other mind control victims to be able to come forward and talk. I had no
idea what it would lead to. I just knew it was important to do. I was being given an opportunity to talk to
people in Washington and tell them that these things happened, and they shouldn't have happened. I
jumped in and did it?
Wayne Morris:
How did it feel - the actual experience of giving testimony at the Committee?
Claudia Mullen:
Pretty scary. It felt good afterwards. It was overwhelming. They were very nice to us. We felt like we
were being looked at under a microscope though, everything you said was being looked at very
carefully, torn apart. You were being questioned a lot, but we kind of expected that. Afterwards, it was
such a feeling of relief and surprise actually, a scary surprise at the response that we had. I walked into
the room and I was just a face, nobody even knew who I was. There were obviously people there from
the government. There were CIA people there, military. Pretty frightening. I just kind of walked in the
crowd. When I walked out, everybody knew who I was. There was so much support, especially from the
other radiation victims. And from the Committee themselves. They were very supportive.
Wayne Morris:
You felt that they had received your information and were taking the information they were hearing
seriously?
Claudia Mullen:
Yes. I did.
Wayne Morris:
And was there any follow-up on the part of the Committee? What was that follow-up as it pertains to the
mind control?
Claudia Mullen:
The reason that I know they actually listened, even though the recommendations were mainly for
radiation experiments, that was what they were looking at. I know they listened to us also because part
of the recommendations that came out in October of 1995 was that these particular projects be looked
into. They were all MKULTRA projects that I had named, and we were able to give as much testimony
in writing as we wanted to. We were only allowed to talk for a certain amount of time, but we could
hand in as much information as we could give them. I had handed in twenty pages listing project
numbers, names, sub-project numbers, subjects, places, people. The project numbers and names that I
gave were actually recommended that these files be pulled. The list that I gave was on there. Now, they
haven't actually done it yet, and I am told the reason is because they are waiting for the people involved,
until everyone has died. To be quite frank, that's what they said.
Wayne Morris:
Who told you this?
Claudia Mullen:
Well, they didn't tell me this of course. Nobody got back to us. I found out actually over the internet. I
spoke to one of the experts that had been filing FOIA in my name for the projects that I had named, and
he said he was told directly by the CIA that they did not want to start any real investigation on this until
all the people had passed away because they felt like the public would react too strongly and the CIA
didn't need this right now.
Wayne Morris:
Well, the public would react strongly and rightly so. Was there any press coverage at all after giving
testimony, or any press contacting you afterwards?
Claudia Mullen:
I think there was a brief story in the Washington paper but the emphasis was on the radiation and on that
testimony. There was coverage on local cable shows ... we did an interview that night for a local public
access television station in Montana ... and of course it was all over the internet afterwards. But not
much national coverage, no. The emphasis was on radiation.
Wayne Morris:
I understand journalist, John Rapaport, compiled your testimony and that of Chris DeNicola in a book.
How soon afterwards did that happen?
Claudia Mullen:
Immediately. He came out with the book within six months. It's called "US mind control experiments on
children - they want to know", by John Rapaport. I was contacted by several other people. One from
20/20 - at the time they wanted my therapist and I to appear on the show. My therapist turned it down so
I turned it down. A couple of other people - one man from Washington - a columnist I did an interview
with. I did an interview with an attorney. So I did some interviews, but that was for local newspapers, I
never really saw them. But there were people calling from all over the country. I had left my therapist's
number as my number in Washington. These people were coming up and asking for a card and how to
contact me. At the time I knew I was taking a risk, but I didn't want to give any personal information, so
I gave my therapist's number and address and that's how they contacted me. I did do some interviews
over the phone. The BBC too.
Wayne Morris:
Was anything done with that interview?
Claudia Mullen:
They are still working on the complete show they are doing. They said it's going to take several years to
finish. Ours is just a small part of it. Jan Klimkowski is the name of the man doing the show.
Wayne Morris:
I wonder if you can describe briefly how you were introduced into these experimental programs?
Claudia Mullen:
I would say to my knowledge I was first introduced in 1958 when I was 8 years old. I had already been
adopted at 2 1/2, my adoptive mother had been abusing me since the day she adopted me. She allowed
her friends to abuse me. I was sent to a camp where there was mainly a sex ring I guess you could call
it ... a bunch of pedophiles who got together on weekends and holidays and passed kids around. These
same people apparently let the people from the government who were looking for child subjects know
that's where they would look. Sex rings, adoption agencies. I think they had been looking at me long
before the time I was 8 years old, but they we were waiting for me to get to a certain age to use me I
guess. So I first knew about it when I was 8 and I was told I was to be tested by some people from the
government at Tulane University. It was very important. It was to help stop Communism and I vaguely
knew what Communism was back then, so I tried to do the best I could. I thought I was doing a good
thing.
Wayne Morris:
You mentioned that your mother knew some people at Tulane. What was the connection there?
Claudia Mullen:
My mother knew the Chairman of the Board at Tulane University Medical School, Darlen Fenner. He
was in New Orleans society, probably the highest in society you could get. My mother was a real social
climber so she pretty much offered me to Darlen Fenner for anything he wanted to use me for. He was
the one who ran this camp. It was called the Covington Camp for Boys and Girls. It was actually his
summer home, near New Orleans. I was sent over there, and they would dress up in Mardis Gras
costumes because we were used to Mardis Gras, and they would do kind of ceremonies ... but it was
mainly just to scare us ... the ceremonies.
Wayne Morris:
What kind of ceremonies?
Claudia Mullen:
He was also good friends with Dr. Robert Heath who was head of the neuropsychiatric department at
Tulane and I believe Darlen Fenner wanted to get the grant money the CIA was offering if Tulane would
allow them to use the place for experiments. Since he alread knew about me, and they were looking for
children who were already abused, that's how I got involved I guess.
Wayne Morris:
How long did this abuse and experimentation go on with Tulane University?
Claudia Mullen:
It went on pretty steadily, quite frequently until I graduated from high school in 1968 and then after that
it was more intermitten because I was away from home, my mother had died, it was harder to get a hold
of me. They still contacted me. I still had to go in and this went on until probably the last time I
remember actually being involved in anything to do with the government was 1988, and I was already
38 years old.
Wayne Morris:
So, thirty years ... After this, what were you doing in your life? Were you able to work or were you
going to school?
Claudia Mullen:
Yes. You see I had developed DID or MPD as a very small child, even before I was adopted because at
the agency where I was at the orphanage, there were just so many babies, and so few people to take care
of us, I guess I started splitting as a natural process to nurture myself, since there wasn't anybody there to
do it for me. I had already started splitting back then - can you repeat the question again?
Wayne Morris:
Were you working after ...
Claudia Mullen:
Right, right. Since I had MPD or DID this allowed me to lead an apparently normal life, go to school. I
went to college after high school. I dated. I went into veterinary medicine, became a veterinary
technician for 12 1/1 years and pretty much led an apparently normal life until the times when they
would get a hold of me, and they would use the multiple personalities - contact one of my personalities
that would respond to them and she would go back to Tulane or wherever they wanted me to go. But
otherwise I was leading a life pretty much like everybody else, you know. Dated, got married, went to
nursing school. I had just graduated from nursing school in 1988 when they used me at some convention
they had here in New Orleans.
Wayne Morris:
When did you first realize that you did have DID? Did that manifest itself in different ways apart from
the ways they were using you?
Claudia Mullen:
When I was 7 years old that's the first real distinct memory I have that there were "children living inside
of me" - imaginary friends I called them. I thought everyone did. These friends looked different than I
did. They had names. I named them. Some were stronger than me, some were taller, some were more
outgoing, whereas others were very shy little girls. So I was aware these kids were living inside me and I
thought everyone did. As I got older I sort of repressed the idea of having imaginary friends. I just sort
of forgot about it. When they came out, I had no knowledge they were coming out. In 1992, when
something happened to me that actually brought all these memories back, then I was diagnosed with
MPD and of course I rejected that right away. I denied it except for the imaginary friends because
everybody has those. I was really adamant that I didn't have MPD, but after all, there was no getting
around that I did.
Wayne Morris:
Do you have an idea of how many identities were created or you created within yourself?
Claudia Mullen:
Close to one hundred, and all but twenty-three have integrated.
Wayne Morris:
So you still have about twenty-three personalities. Can you tell us about some of the identities and
whether they have helped you in some way or ...
Claudia Mullen:
Oh yeah. They have all helped me, that's why they were created, to help me survive. Each identity, each
personality is created at a time of trauma. That's the only way they can be created. That's the only way
you can split yourself, is during a traumatic incident. That identity comes out in order to do a job for
you. In other words, to take pain. If you have to do something that goes completely against your nature,
then you create someone to do that for you because obviously you can't do it. If you have to act a certain
way and you cna't do it yourself, you create someone to do it. It's not a conscious thing, it's an
unconscious process. They are all helpful for me in the sense that they do something that I can't do for
myself. I have one that gets very very angry. She would come out at times when I would just get furious
at my mom or different people that were hurting me ... she would come out kicking and screaming and
would try to bite them. Myself, I couldn't get angry. I was afraid to get angry. That's why I have Leslie -
she's the one who gets angry. So they are helping in the sense that they do something that I am not
capable of doing. But they cannot go against my inherent nature. In other words, none of them would do
anything that I would feel was inherently wrong like to kill somebody, they do things that I am not
capable of doing just because I am not capable of doing it, but there's none of them that are bad. They
are all good.
Wayne Morris:
What was it that started bringing the memories back?
Claudia Mullen:
In October 1992 something happened that was completely unrelated to this and I am told that a lot of
victims of child abuse throughout their lives become victims of crime, violent crime, simply because
these perpetrators look for people who look like victims and I became a victim of aggravated rape in my
house. I was a nurse, working nights, and I came home in the morning, and there was a man waiting for
me, and it was pretty traumatic. I didn't tell anyone at first. I tried to handle it and obviously I couldn't. I
became depressed and suicidal. Eventually I called the police. The police recommended me to the
therapist that I have now, Valerie Wolf. Mainly because she was an expert witness, and they wanted to
use her in the trial against the man who had raped me.
Wayne Morris:
You were going forward and pressing charges at that time?
Claudia Mullen:
Yes. And it took 2 1/2 years to go to trial, and during the time I was in therapy, that's when the
memories started coming back. I would say probably about six months after the incident happened.
These memories started coming that had nothing to do with the rape. Obviously things that had
happened when I was a child. At first it was just my mother that I remembered, the way she beat me.
Then there were people I remembered from my childhood, and then it started to be memories of
strangers, people that I didn't know. Mainly doctors, people in uniforms, military uniforms. I would be
in a place that I don't remember ever going to like Maryland. I never thought I had been to Maryland and
I was having memories of being there, and these people hurting me, doing things to me, taking tests,
being in front of an audience of people and having to perform in different things. These are the kind of
memories that started coming back, and they started coming very fast. Once you are triggered to
remember, they don't come out in a timely fashion. They just come crashing out and you are so
overwhelmed that if you are not in therapy already, then you just end up in the hospital probably because
of suicide attempts, because that's the first thing you want to do is kill yourself - before you can even
deal with this because nobody wants to believe this really happened to them. When the memories are so
real and so vivid and you know it must have happened - then you check out information and you find out
this place does exist - that this person was a real person. Then there is no way of getting around the fact
that this was a real memory. You try everything you can to prove they are false, that it didn't really
happen, that you made this person up in your mind. When it's proved to you that they are real, accurate
memories and you have to deal with it - the first thing you do is deny and then you try to get away from
it -
Wayne Morris:
Was it you or your therapist who was attempting to verify the information you were remembering?
Claudia Mullen:
At first, neither one of us did. The memories just started coming and after a while I just started thinking
that this didn't happen. You can't prove that it happened. I started writing all this information down - my
shadows I call them - my alters - they would come out and write down conversations I overheard,
descriptions of places I had been to, things that happened to me. They would write it as sort of a letter to
me, "remember Claudia? remember when this colonel came to see us?" and they would describe the
man, give part of his name. They would remember whole conversations of things. So finally she said
"well, I guess we should trying to find out if this is real or not." She actually didn't try to at first because
she said the whole purpose of therapy is not so much to find out if it's real or not, but to deal with what
is coming, what you are remembering, try to get through it, process it, and get past it. It's not really to
find out if it's true or not. It doesn't really matter. If it's happening to you, then it's real enough to you. I
wanted to know whether it was real or not, whether these people existed or not. She had no idea. She had
never heard of any of it. She was not familiar with the places I was talking about so she had to send it
out to people all over the country. She started getting responses back, that yes, she is describing so-and-
so, yes he was known to be involved in CIA government experiments. They started calling me and
asking me specific questions and I would describe people accurately. People I supposedly had never
met. People who had died years ago. I described the inside of places that supposedly I had never been to
and yet I could describe what room I had gone to, what it looked like, things like that. That's how it was
verified.
Wayne Morris:
And did you or other people actually go to re-visit any of the places you were describing?
Claudia Mullen:
I went to a few with my therapist. I would never recommend going back to any place where abuse
happened by yourself, because you immediately go into a flashback when you go back to some place.
We went to some places around New Orleans that I had been to. One was a camp, an arsenal, that's now
a police training facility and they allowed us to go in and look around. It was called Camp Nichols in
New Orleans, and Dr. Wilson Greene used to stay there when he was in New Orleans. I found out later
that it was sort of a place where military people could stay when they came to New Orleans and it also
doubled as an arsenal. And I went back to Tulane University and that was pretty scary because that's
where a lot of this stuff happened. I showed her the room - I said, "It's room 302" and I described what
the hall would look like, what was on the wall, and sure enough a lot of it was the same. Of course there
were empty rooms -- they weren't being used. But it was exactly the way I described it. And then some
of the people that verified the information actually went to different places and the only place they
couldn't get into was Edgewood Arsenal in Fort Detrich, Maryland.
Wayne Morris:
You remember being experimented on within Edgewood Arsenal?
Claudia Mullen:
Yeah. I had been there. I could describe the place but very few people have been inside of it. It did turn
out that one of the people that was verifying the information that I sent interviewed different people. A
couple of times they interviewed people that I actually remembered from my childhood that remembered
me, only they remembered me as "Crystal Stone" which was my name back then. That's what they called
me for the experiments - "Crystal Stone". This man interviewed several people and one had actually
been inside Edgewood and remembered a portrait of Dr. Greene that had been on the wall, and she said
that the description I gave of him was exactly like the picture, that he looked just like the picture. He
interviewed another man, a doctor who had come to see me at Tulane, but he had walked out and refused
to take part in the experiment because they were using electric shock on me and I was about 14 at the
time. He was furious and said "nobody told me you were using children" and he refused to participate.
And when he was interviewed by this man, the doctor remembered, "... oh yeah, I remember a little
blonde haired girl, skinny -- named Crystal" and so that was verification. But he has asked not to be
named.
Wayne Morris:
Just to reiterate, when you first approached the police about the rape that happened, what did you start
remembering at that point before you got in contact with Valerie Wolf?
Claudia Mullen:
Actually, as far as any of this stuff, I didn't remember anything. I was mainly having nightmares about
the rape. I did try to contact some people from my childhood that I thought had been -- one was a family
friend, a doctor -- who I thought had been a family friend -- who had been someone I had always gone to
when I had a problem. It turns out he was my monitor, or controller. He was the one who was supposed
to keep track of me my whole life and make sure that my memories didn't start coming back, and when
they did, he would take me back to Tulane. But I remembered him as a good person -- like an uncle.
Then I did call Dr. Robert Heath because I remembered him from my childhood as a doctor I had gone
to see. I remembered him as being a kindly old man that had always treated me nice. I didn't even
remember what kind of doctor he was -- I just knew the name and I looked it up in the phone book, and I
called him, and he said I needed to come in. He remembered me. Actually after the rape, it wasn't until I
was in the hospital -- about three months later -- that I started having flashbacks of other people hurting
me, other men, not the rapist -- other people. Everybody, from the doctor, the nurses ... was really
confused ... because most people who have been treated for a recent trauma ... you have flashbacks of
the trauma but you don't have flashbacks of something else ... and it was getting worse instead of better.
I was on all this medication, group therapy, being hospitalized on suicide watch, and I wasn't getting any
better. I was getting worse. I escaped a couple of times, but they brought me back. The way the
memories start coming back -- they deliberately do this. They layer the memories so that you will
remember family memories. I remembered my mother abusing me, things that had nothing to do with
Tulane or any outside doctors -- I just thought I was abused by my mother and her friends. Then I
remembered the camp across the lake and that led to remembering Tulane and that led to remembering
all the places I had been to, and it just sort of snowballed. They keep coming, one after another. It's
really hard to live while you are getting all these memories back. If I didn't have personalities I probably
wouldn't be alive because they came out -- when you are going through these memories you can't just
say, "okay I don't want to remember tonight, I want to eat dinner" -- you can't do that. So you go away,
and let someone else come out, and they can eat for you, or sleep -- so you are not in a constant
flashback.
Wayne Morris:
How did going to therapy at the time help you cope with dealing with all these memories coming back?
Claudia Mullen:
Well, it kept me safe for one thing. Valerie Wolf made sure that -- I had to make a contract with her that
I wouldn't hurt myself -- or if I thought about hurting myself I would tell her first. She had to make a
contract with each of the personalities that were coming out -- the ones that came out the most. Not
everybody came out at once. Obviously -- if I have almost one hundred personalities, not all of them
would be coming out at once -- but over the years they come out. Some of them only come out one time
and then that's it, they integrate. They come out to give you a memory and then they go inside you and
integrate because their job is done. The therapy kept me going from day to day. There were lots of nights
I would end up calling her in the middle of the night and she would try to keep control of the flashbacks.
That's the worst part, the flashbacks. Because you are actually in the memory and it's happening right
then and there. My husband would try to get me out of the flashbacks, and I would think he was the
person hurting me. I would fight him. It's more or less a safety thing -- to stay safe. You don't want to be
drugged all the time and you don't want to be in the hospital all the time so ... therapy is really important.
Wayne Morris:
Can you describe the approach that your therapist took with you to help you heal, and to help you
remember?
Claudia Mullen:
I guess the first part of healing is the remembering part and what she does for that is really just be there
-- she doesn't encourage you to remember, you start remembering and you can't help it, and she will just
sort of be there and saying, "what else do you remember?" Just sort of someone to give your memory to,
someone who believes you, that's a big part of it -- having someone believe you because it is important
to you. You remember this awful stuff and once you get past the point of denying it, and you understand
it did happen, you need someone else to believe it happened. It is part of the healing process. She was
there to help me remember it, to stay safe while I remembered it -- like I said it's actually as if you were
going through the whole incident itself. You feel the body pain, whatever happened to you then you feel
the same pain. You feel like you are being held down whatever it is that's happening -- you can actually
feel -- like, if you are tied down, you can feel the ties on you. You can feel it against your skin. It's a
weird sensation. It's almost like you are hallucinating, but you are not. You are just trapped back in this
memory. She keeps you from hurting yourself, from running out the door -- which you do. You try to
escape because you come in and out of the memory. It is not a constant thing. You are in the process of
remembering something awful and somehow you click in -- the here and now will click in -- and you
say, "okay I don't want to do this anymore, I want to get the hell out of here" and you start running to the
door. She has had to catch me obviously to keep me safe inside of her room. A lot of people can only do
this inside of a hospital. I was lucky. I had a therapist who was working outside of the hospital, because
it is not a very good environment for doing this -- in the hospital. It is much easier to do it in some place
familiar, more like a second home than a hospital environment. Because a lot of the stuff did happen in
hospitals -- so that's the last place I want to be. And like I said, verifying the memories. After it's all over
with, and you have finished it. You talk about it, you process it and then I would ask her "please try to
find out was there a man named James Hamilton from California? Was there ever a doctor by this
name?" "Is there such a place as Vacaville, California?" Something like that. So she would call her
consultants and all these people that were experts and say, "okay this is the information she gave me."
Because she had no idea. She purposely didn't read any of the material that was being published because
she didn't want to accidentally contaminate my memories by giving me any information. She said as
little as possible during therapy other than encouraging me to talk and basically hanging on to you
sometimes.
Wayne Morris:
Now there has been some material published about describing traumatic memory ... and the different
way it's processed inside the brain, as opposed to regular memory. In that it does kind of take you back
to that raw experience, including body memories, and that sounds like it was your experience as well ...
Claudia Mullen:
Right. Raw experience. That's a good description.
Wayne Morris:
Did you find that you had to relive all of the memories in order to integrate that identity that had that
memory, or were there other ways of dealing with it?
Claudia Mullen:
Well I'm told that everyone does their memories different. Everyone heals in a different way. For me in
particular, it's important for me to go through the memories. Why I don't know. If I had my choice, I
would say, I don't want to do any of the memories. I just want to talk about it, and say, well this
happened, on such and such a day, and I was 12 years old -- I would rather talk about it, than experience
it. For some reason, I can't put it behind me and go on and deal with it unless I have actually gone
through it again. Only this time you do have a sense that it happened a long time ago, that the person's
not really there anymore, and that you are safe. That's the only difference. You do have the sensation
that you know Valerie is there, that the therapist is there, even though you are caught back in a different
time, in a different place -- you still have this sense that this person who is safe and she's not going to let
them really hurt you, and that this person is not going to come back and get you -- and that no one else
knows about it, it's private. But for me I have to experience the memories. I have to get the full memory
from the shadow that experienced it at the time. She gives it to me and then she goes inside or integrates.
And that's where most of my shadows have gone. Once they get the memory, they integrate it.
Wayne Morris:
Just to clarify for our listeners -- when you are saying "she", you are really meaning other identities
within yourself ...
Claudia Mullen:
Yes. My identities or alters -- I call them shadows -- I mean my alters -- are all little girls. The oldest is
16 years old. The youngest is 1 year old. That's all one hundred of them -- they were all little girls. I
don't have any boys, men, animals, robots, anything like that but other people have. Mine are just
different ages -- I might have, like, five that are ten years old -- so that's why I have so many. Because
there were some years when it was really bad, and things happened a lot, and I missed most of that year
at school. It's a miracle that I passed school. I was held back a grade. And we actually went back and
checked my school records and that verified information because we found the records of days that I
missed from school, and they coincided with memories. I missed almost every Thursday and Friday -- I
would go away for the weekend, you now. I don't have any pictures of me at any birthday because I was
always sent away for my birthday. I don't have any pictures of me at Christmas, but I have lots of
pictures of me at Easter time. I was always home at Easter because Easter is a big Catholic holiday and I
was raised Catholic and of course you have to be in church on Easter Sunday or people will ask
questions. But for some reason at Christmas, nobody asks questions. But for other people, they don't
have to go through the memory. They can just talk about it. For myself I had to go through almost every
single one that I have -- there's very few that I am able to process and talk about and not have to
experience again. I guess it makes it real for me.
Wayne Morris:
How long has been your healing process? Are you still in therapy now?
Claudia Mullen:
Yes, I am but I am back at work now almost full time, as a nurse. I was out of work four and a half years
and I was on disability because I was in therapy so much -- almost every day of the week, except for
weekends. I was unable to work. I was just too exhausted. I was on medication. Now I am going to
therapy once, maybe twice a week, and it's mainly processing -- talking about the things that happened,
talking about how I feel about the people. I have already gotten all the memories back so the worst is
over -- actually having to remember every detail. That's done already. That happened during the spring
of 1993 until right before Christmas 1996.
Wayne Morris:
So when you actually gave testimony at the Radiation Hearings, you were only about half way
through ...
Claudia Mullen:
A little more than half way through the memories. If I gave the testimony now, it would be a lot more
accurate, with a lot more detail, a lot more names, places, because there were things I hadn't even
remembered then. But it was enough that could be validated, and enough that they were interested ...
thank goodness.
Wayne Morris:
You also have a photographic memory.
Claudia Mullen:
I have a shadow who has a photographic memory, so I can use a photographic memory but I don't have
access to it at all times. In other words, Claudia doesn't have a photographic memory, but part of me
does. I don't have it 100% of the time but I used it a lot when I was growing up because -- unconsciously
it was very important to me to remember everything that happened to me, every name, every face. I
wanted to remember these people who were hurting me. I didn't know why I wanted to remember.
Maybe I thought unconsciously that there would be somebody to tell some day. Somebody that would
listen to me. Because they were always telling me not to tell the secrets. That horrible things would
happen if you told someone. And I did try to tell twice as I was growing up. I tried to tell two different
people and both times I got punished for it. I learned my lesson and I didn't tell anybody.
Wayne Morris:
Who were these people that you had told?
Claudia Mullen:
When I was seven, I told the school nurse. I had been to camp the weekend before, to Mr. Fenner's camp
across the lake. I had a really rough time. I was bleeding vaginally. I had bruises, scrapes all over me
and my mother would send me to school with these flesh coloured leotards on ... with stockings ... like a
little ballet suit, only it was flesh coloured and I would wear my uniform so it hid all the bruises and the
scrape on me. She would put like a pad on me, you know, like you use for your period, and she sent me
to school. I went to the school nurse because my teacher thought I looked really pale and not feeling
well. I told the nurse. She said "How did this happen to you?" She saw I was bleeding and everything,
had a temperature, a fever. And I said "my mother did it." She said, "no really, how did this happen?" I
said, "my mother did it - she let this man do something to me and I don't want to go home." And so she
told me to lay down and take a nap, and she would take care of it. I thought she was going to call the
police and have my mother arrested. Instead she called my mother to come and pick me up and that she
thought my mother should know what her daughter was saying about her. Of course I missed school
after that for three days because she took it out on me.
Wayne Morris:
Your mother punished you ...
Claudia Mullen:
And then when I was fourteen I told somebody and once again, they told my mother -- no actually, they
told my monitor, Dr. Brown, the family friend who was best friends with Mr. Fenner and also with Dr.
Robert Heath from Tulane and he was friends with a lot of the people from the CIA too. He actually
worked with Martin Orne in the 1950's so he was friends with him. I told him what was happening. I
said bad things were happening, I don't want to go home, I don't want to go see doctors any more and of
course, he punished me then he told my mother. So that was the only two times I told anybody what was
going on. I learned my lesson not to tell. But I kept everything filed away in my photographic memory. I
remembered whole conversations, could describe what everybody was wearing, what they sounded like,
what the place looked like, what it felt like, everything. That's why I have been able to give so much
information. It's not just blurs of things that happened to me -- it's details and I am told that that's not
very common -- that most people don't remember a lot of detail. They remember the feelings and the
pain and sensations, but they don't remember small details, or they try not to.
Wayne Morris: I wonder if we could go into some of these details that you do remember, if you could
talk about some of the people involved in the experiments ...
Claudia Mullen:
Since there were so many, you will have to tell me ... at what times do you want to know about ... at
what age ...
Wayne Morris:
Maybe you could go chronologically ... what kind of experiments were they doing at the start, and who
was involved, and if you knew what the different projects were at the time ...
Claudia Mullen:
Okay. Like I told you before, when I was 8 years old I was told I was going to be tested to see if I could
participate or take part in this big project. They kept calling the project ... and it was for the President of
the United States and it was to help stop communism and it sounded very exciting ... so these people ... I
was told they were doctors ... and these important people were going to come from all over the country
to test me. I mainly was at Tulane for the tests. Some of the tests were -- personality tests. It was mostly
men who were involved. There was one women I remember distinctly, Phyllis Greenacre, she was from
a place called Cornell. I didn't even know that was a school at the time, I just remembered the word
"Cornell" But the rest of them were men, and they would say "Call me Uncle ... (so and so) " So Uncle
John came from Oklahoma and tested me for personality. He had names for different types of tests but
basically he was testing to see how my personality ... who I would fit in with best ... who I would get
along with the best. I think they already an idea of what they wanted to use me for but they had to see
specifically what I would be most useful ... how I could help the projects the most. He tested me and
said I got along best with older men ... "daddies" or "uncles". That's what I was looking for -- affection
from older men. In my own life my adoptive mother was so dominant, and horrible and scary and my
adoptive father was sickly and very weak, never stood up to my mother, knew what was going on, never
stopped it. Here I was looking for this strong man to come along and save me. So, his name was Uncle
John and he was also known as "the Gittinger Man". I had to remember these people by characteristics
they had, by the clothes they wore, or by maybe something they talked about, omething odd about them
-- because there were so many people coming and going in my life it would have been impossible just to
remember names and put faces with them and where they from ... so I would call them by different
nicknames. John Gittinger was the "Goatee Man". I told him he had a funny looking beard and he said
it's called a 'goatee'. It was the first time I had ever heard that expression. Then there was Uncle Sid who
was Gottlieb. I called him the man with the pebble in his shoe because he walked funny, he had a limp.
Gittinger was mainly just talking to me, trying to get an idea of what I was like, was I obedient. They
would test me for memory, and of course I had a very good memory and that was important. They did
IQ tests, and I mentioned Phyllis Greenacre before. She tested me for sexual type things, how I
responded sexually. She determined that I did not respond well to women because of my experiences
with my mother. I hated women touching me, examining me but it wasn't so bad with men because
obviously women reminded me of my mother. Phyllis Greenacre reminded me of my mother so I
couldn't stand her. I heard them talking, I was sitting in the room and they would talk about what they
had found, as if I wasn't even there. I guess I wasn't supposed to understand a word. I was only 8 years
old. They figured I wouldn't know what they were talking about. They didn't bother to take me out of the
room. She said that I would respond to older men and I responded quickly to physical stimulation, and
they would actually [sexually] stimulate you in different ways to see what would happen.
They actually had machines with wires and tubes coming out of them and they would insert them inside
of you and then they would stimulate you and they would give you a score on how you responded in
terms of how much. It sounds really weird.
Wayne Morris:
This was all done when you were around eight years old ...
Claudia Mullen:
For a whole year I was brought back and forth to Tulane and tested for all sorts of things. To see how
easily I was hypnotized and there were several people who tested me for that -- Martin Orne -- I called
him "The Orne Man" and "The Weasel". He reminded me of a weasel, his eyes were ... He was very
scary though. He hypnotized me and said I hypnotized easily and rapidly -- they could "induce me
rapidly" is what they called it. I think that was the main criteria. You had to have a certain IQ, you had
to have a good to excellent memory, you had to be able to be hypnotized easily and quickly, you had to
be able to dissociate. The imaginary friends -- they were very pleased to hear that I had imaginary
friends inside, that I called "The Annies". You had to respond well to people and be obedient. And I
was. I had always been taught -- there wasn't any other way to behave in my world. If you weren't
obedient you got hurt. My mother taught me that. I always listened to grownups and did what they told
me no matter how odd it seemed or how bad it seemed. It would be something really bad to do like take
all your clothes off. I didn't argue. I just did it because the consequences were bad. Those were the kinds
of tests ...
Wayne Morris:
Why do you think those were the kind of factors they were looking for within you? What did they hope
to achieve by doing these things to you, in your opiniion?
Claudia Mullen:
Looking back -- of course at the time I had no idea -- and even a year later when I was sent off to a
training camp in Maryland, I didn't really understand. But now looking back I know they were looking
for someone to use in sexual entrapment, blackmail. That's what they were going to use me for. They
needed someone that responded well to strangers, to men, and who had a good memory because I would
be taught at this camp how to coerce people into giving a lot of information about themselves.
Obviously they are talking to a child. They are doing something sexual that they aren't supposed to be
doing, and they are not really conscious about what they are talking about. You know they give away a
lot of information about themselves or their jobs and if you know the right questions to ask, you can get
them to talk just about anything about themselves. Uncle Richard used to tell me it is amazing what
people will admit when they are in the presence of a young girl. They are not even thinking about the
stuff they are saying. What they would do ... I was told I had passed all the tests, and the next summer I
was going to be sent to this camp. And I thought, oh no, camp. That's bad. But they said this was a really
nice camp, and it was in Maryland, and they asked my Mom for permission to send me away and of
course she signed the papers and she didn't even ask about it. I was taken on a train to a place called
Deep Creek Lodge in Maryland. It was beautiful. It was all surrounded by water. To me it was
Disneyland only I didn't know about Disneyland then, but that's just what I would compare it to. There
was great food, people didn't hurt you in the same way I was used to being hurt. They treated you like
you were important, like you were special and I was told I was going to learn how to sexually please
men. I was nine years old. I didn't know what sexually please men meant, but I just knew that if I was
good, and behaved myself I could stay. I stayed for three weeks. It was probably the best three weeks of
my life up to that point.
There were other children there as young as five or six years old. Children younger than myself. There
were young women there ... teenagers ... all different ages, and some boys too. The first couple of days
we kind of saw each other, and after that you were pretty much alone with one person. You were paired
up with an adult and you stayed with them for three weeks in a cabin, like a resort cabin. I was told later
by one of the experts that this place was a CIA training ground and also a place where people could just
get away, take vacations. It was free if you were in the CIA. It was also very isolated. It was on like an
island ... it was hard to get to, it was very private. Anyhow my day consisted of being with this man
called "Uncle Otto", that's what he told me to call him and he was a doctor and he was from Kansas. I
got to choose what name I wanted to use and I chose Ava after Ava Gardner because I loved movie
stars. We spent the day going to the pool or just staying in the room playing games that he taught me.
Most of the time I didn't have any clothes on. Most of the time he didn't have any clothes on. But after a
while you just learned to ignore that kind of stuff. You weren't embarassed anymore. And it was only
one person. It wasn't like you had to go in front of all these strangers with no clothes on, so that was an
improvement. You weren't really doing any horrible things where people were screaming, where there
was blood. He was of course molesting me, but he didn't actually rape me so it wasn't physically painful
in that sense. Everything was kind of an improvement over what I was used to and this was a vacation.
In the evening, after about a week there, Uncle Otto had taught me different things to sexually please
men just like they said I was going to. And I thought they were yucky and I didn't like doing it but I
thought well this is what I have to do to not be hurt and to be treated nice and get good food and not
starve because my mother would starve me sometimes when we went to camp. Sometimes all you had to
eat was an orange or something. I mean that's something they would give you. This was definitely an
improvement. I thought if I have to do this yucky stuff well then I am going to do it. Of course different
shadows or alters would come out and help me, so that I didn't always have to do it. After the first week,
other people started coming in, other men, and what they would do is put me in a room with them. I
would have to do whatever they wanted, but it wasn't violent, you know. They were mostly kind of
molesting me, kind of thing. Or I would do something to them, and I knew it was being filmed. They
showed me about the camera behind the mirror and I had to get them to talk about themselves.
Afterwards I would go in this room and there would be the "Gottlieb Man", the "Man with a Pebble in
His Shoe", a man named "Morgan Hall" who was really Captain White. Morse Allen, the "Morse Man,
and Uncle Otto. Sometimes there would be other people there. They would ask me to describe the
person, to repeat everything he had said to me, just pretty much to remember everything I could about
the incident, and then they would show the film they had taken and see how well I had remembered and
tell me how well I did, or if I forgot something important it was pointed out to me, or if there was
something I could have done better, like getting him to talk about his family more.
Wayne Morris:
Did you get the sense that these other men knew about the camera behind the mirror?
Claudia Mullen:
Oh yeah, they all knew, because first I would talk about it and then they would show the film that had
been taken that day.
Wayne Morris:
But the actual men who were in the room ...
Claudia Mullen:
Oh no, no. I don't think they did. I don't know who they were ... soldiers maybe ... I don't know. People
they flew in to be subjects, I don't know who they were. No. I doubt seriously that they knew about the
camera. They didn't act like they knew.
Wayne Morris:
So you believe that the experimentation that was done with you was for purposes of using you in sexual
blackmail or entrapment?
Claudia Mullen:
Definitely. But as I got older, I was told they were going to be using me "out in the field". But I had to
be a certain age because they couldn't send a nine year old or even a ten year old to a hotel room with a
man, it would be a little bit too much I guess, so they had to wait until I got to be more like twelve or
thirteen when they really started using me. But they told me that's what they were doing. They were
going to get these people on the film ... Captain White told me. He was in charge of taking the film. I
called him the "Martini Man" because he drank martinis all the time and he carried a gun, and he said he
was a policeman at one time. He told me what they were doing -- taking pictures of the men with me
because they were doing something they weren't supposed to be doing. And of course I knew that. I
knew it was wrong. They had wives at home, and children, and they wouldn't want their wives to know
what they did, they wouldn't want the people they worked with to know that they were talking about
their job. That's why I had to get them talking about what they did, what kind of stuff they did, describe
their families, ask them about money. I knew that whatever these people were telling me and doing to
me was going to be used against them. And when I got a little older, there started to be a lot of
politicians, people in the CIA -- I don't know how they didn't know they were being filmed because they
knew about those projects, but for some reason -- I guess because it was a different hotel or a different
place, they thought they were getting away with it, that nobody was watching them. So just about
everybody got filmed ...
Wayne Morris:
You are saying that other CIA personnel were filmed with you as well with you?
Claudia Mullen:
Yeah. Just about everybody was filmed except Martin Orne, he was the only one who wasn't about to be
caught. He made sure that he never got on film, at least that I know of. They may have gotten him with
someone else, they didn't get him with me.
Wayne Morris:
Did you get a sense of what they were using these films specifically for against these people?
Claudia Mullen:
They said it was for money and to keep the projects going, but the most important thing was that the
President wanted these projects going and that they had to get the money because the CIA couldn't
afford to pay for it, so other people had to pay for it and didn't I want to keep helping the President? Of
course I said yeah. Well, he needs money from these people. Sometimes the people decide that they
don't want to give money anymore, so if we have the films, and they don't want anyone to know what
they did on the films, then they are going to give money. So they pretty much explained to me what they
were using me for. Then there were doctors that, people that had foundations behind their names, so-and-
so Foundation and like -- there was a doctor -- there were a lot of people named "Charles" for some
reason. There was a Dr. Charles Geshecker or something like that and he had a foundation or something
-- and he was one of the people I got filmed with.
Wayne Morris:
Geschickter Foundation, was that the name?
Claudia Mullen:
Yeah. His name was Charles and he was a doctor. He was one of those people who had a lot of money, I
was told ...
Wayne Morris:
So these people who were filmed were in some ways involved in funding these projects, or were coerced
into funding?
Claudia Mullen:
Some of them were. I think they were afraid they would talk about the projects, and so they had to use
something to keep them quiet. For instance, there was a guy named Church -- all I knew was, he would
try, he was very important to them because he was going to convince other people to let the projects
keep going and so they had to get something on this guy, Church. This was later, when I was in high
school. Supposedly he ended up talking other people into letting the projects keep going. He was
supposed to be investigating - to see if there was anything wrong being done by the CIA - and so he of
course decided nothing wrong was being done because they had a film on him.
Wayne Morris:
So you got the sense that this man, Church, was a politician in some way?
Claudia Mullen:
I know some of them were politicians because they had Senator in front of their name. I don't know if he
was a Senator, I just know he was Frank Church. He was on some committee that was supposed to be
checking on the CIA to see if what they were doing was wrong, or illegal, or something. They said he
was going to decide in favour of the CIA because they were going to tell him the film would show up
somewhere if he didn't. Apparently it worked, because they kept going. There was a Senator from
Louisiana that I was with a couple of times. He was kind of old, but apparently he was on one of the
committees that was checking up on the CIA. They were always being checked on ... that's what they
told me. People were always trying to find something bad about them to stop the projects and shut them
down and they had to keep going, and if it meant hurting a few people, then that's what they had to do.
Wayne Morris:
Do you have a sense of how often you were used for this kind of entrapment or coercion?
Claudia Mullen:
Well ... there were certain years that I was used a lot. When I was 13 and 14 - I would say at least a
couple of times a month. There were times when they would have me for two or three weeks, you know.
I would go every day ... so ... or they would take me out of town someplace. I would go in these little
planes and go to different military bases, sometimes there were houses. I went to Texas a lot. I went to
Maryland a lot. There was a lot during the years 1963-64 and then, like before I graduated from high
school, 1966-67, they used me a lot. And then in 1972 when I was getting ready to graduate from
college they got a hold of me for several times for a couple of weeks. It was pretty much ... I could
expect it every August because a lot of people would come to New Orleans in August and May for some
convention or something. There would always be a lot of doctors in town and ... I knew I was going to
have to go some place. But I didn't know in between, because obviously I would forget, because they
would always make sure that I forgot before they sent me home. They had to do that, because I couldn't
go home remembering that I had just been with Senator Long or somebody like that ... you know, they
had to make sure I had amnesia so they gave me amnesia barriers in between.
Wayne Morris:
And how would they do that?
Claudia Mullen:
Ah. Shock treatments.
Wayne Morris:
Electricity ...
Claudia Mullen:
Electricity. Yeah. That causes amnesia for recent events. So I would have to go back to Tulane and sit in
this chair, it was like a dentist's chair and they had figured out just how much electricity it took to cause
my amnesia, or to make it last. There was a man from Canada who spoke with a funny accent and
always called me "Lassie" and I always thought, "why is he calling me a dog?" I always thought he was
calling me "Lassie" the collie from tv. He was the one who came in and figured out how much electricity
it would take, and he was kind of an expert on it.
Wayne Morris:
Do you remember this person's name?
Claudia Mullen:
I called him the "Camera Man" because his last name sounded like Camera Man. He was good friends
with the "Dull Men", the Dulles Men. There were two of them and he was good friend of one of them,
and he was a doctor and he had saved another man's son. There was a story that he was a story like he
was a hero to this "Dull Man" because he had saved his son from something ... he worked for an Institute
that was named after one of the "Dull Men". There was one that I never met but heard about. I knew the
one Dull Man, called John but I didn't know his brother, I just heard about him. I guess it was Dulles.
Wayne Morris:
That would have been John Foster Dulles ...
Claudia Mullen:
There were a lot of people I didn't ... I never really heard their real names ... but after a while the people
who researched all this would say "well obviously you are talking about John Dulles ..." and I would
say, "welll who's that?" because I have never been really big on names. I have always stayed away from
anything that had anything to do with politics, watching the news. I have always had an aversion to that.
Never knew why until now. Now I know why. So I made a point of not knowing anything about politics
or politicians. These names meant nothing to me until people started telling me who they were.
Wayne Morris:
Did you remember the actual name of the person you are describing as the "Camera Man"?
Claudia Mullen:
I was told after I described what he looked like and that his last name sounded like camera man and that
he talked with an accent that he was Dr. Ewen Cameron from Canada.
Wayne Morris:
And what was Dr. Cameron specifically involved in?
Claudia Mullen:
Electricity.
Wayne Morris:
Just the electricity?
Claudia Mullen:
With me, yeah. They brought him to New Orleans, to Tulane to give me shock treatments to figure out
exactly how much they needed and how many times they needed to give it to me to make me forget until
the next time. He gave me different amounts of shock at different times. I think I was there for several
days, maybe three or four days the first time I met him. I guess I wasn't even a teenager yet, I was just
ten or eleven years old. He also did something else. He would make messages on tape and at night when
you slept you had to listen to these messages and I guess they used them for his voice or something
because he had a really interesting voice, it made you want to listen. He would repeat things over and
over again.
Wayne Morris:
It would be his voice on the tapes that were used?
CLAUDIA MULLEN.
Yeah. They would have other people on tape too, but I remember during this time when they were doing
the electricity, they would give me what they called the "sleep talk tape" to make you very sleepy. Put
you in a dark room, put these earphones on you, then you would have something attached to your toes
and to maybe one finger ... like clothespins they felt like ... so you would go to sleep listening to this
tape that was going on and his messages ... and if you fell asleep something would wake you up ... these
things that were attached to your toes and your hands ... and I guess it was these little jolts of electricity
to wake you up. It would keep you from sleeping at all. You couldn't sleep the whole night. You had to
listen constantly.
Wayne Morris:
How long would this go on for?
Claudia Mullen:
Three or four days, three or four nights.
Wayne Morris:
Continuous? You were not allowed to sleep during those three or four days?
Claudia Mullen:
Nope.
Wayne Morris:
Do you have memories of what the messages were that were being used?
Claudia Mullen:
They would always start with, "Crystal, your mother abandoned you. She didn't want you." That I was
bad, that I was doing these perverted things, that type of thing.
Claudia Mullen:
...the doctors were the only ones who could save me. The doctors were my friends. I had to listen to the
doctors and only them. They wouldn't name any names specifically, just to say "the doctors, the good
doctors". All my life I always -- if anything was wrong, I always went to a doctor because this was
ingrained me, that doctors were the answer to everything. And believe me, my whole life, when I wasn't
going through this stuff, I was constantly having something wrong with me. I was in and out of the
hospital. I had all sorts of illnesses which they could never diagnosis specifically what was wrong with
me; a history of headaches, migraine headaches my whole life, and the headaches were from the shock.
They hit you hard, those headaches. You wake up from getting shock treatments and your head just feels
like it is going to explode. So that would get you on painkillers and get you addicted to painkillers so
you would have to keep going back to get more painkillers for headaches. I had surgery I found out later
didn't even need to be done, that they were looking for things that were wrong with me. I would go to
other doctors, and they wouldn't know anything about this, they would just -- I had episodes where I was
vomiting constantly, couldn't keep any food down, was losing weight, and I had exploratory surgery and
they never did find anything wrong with me.
Wayne Morris:
Where was the surgery done on you?
Claudia Mullen:
In my stomach, abdominal surgery. They took my gall bladder and appendix out, but there was nothing
wrong with them, and I kept vomiting. What it was was body pain, body memories coming back. Before
the actual memories came back, the actual flashbacks come, you get the body pain first. That's the first
sign that you are getting a memory. It usually starts with a headache, and then stomach-ache, cramps ...
the actual pain of the memory without the actual memory, you would just get the pain part. Pain comes
first, always. Pain is a barrier to remembering. Because you would be in so much pain, you would want
to get rid of the pain right away, so I would call up Dr. Charles Brown who was the, friend, the one I
told you about, who was actually my monitor and friends with Darlen Fenner, Robert Heath, Martin
Orne. I would go to him and say I am having these horrible headaches, cramps, they won't go away. Of
course that would be a sign to him that she's remembering, she's going to start remembering pretty soon.
So then he would take me to Dr. Heath and he would say well he's going to fix me up and he would give
me more shock treatments and I would go home and forget.
Wayne Morris:
He would give you electroshock ...
Claudia Mullen:
Yeah. And then painkillers for the headache that I would get afterwards. But the body pain would go
away because I would start remembering. So I would start having nightmares about snakes or weird
things and I would go to Dr. Brown and say I am having these nightmares and he would think oh she's
going to start remembering things so we'd better do something. It was usually shock that they used, but
sometimes they would use trauma, just traumatize you so much you would just forget.
Wayne Morris:
And how would they traumatize you?
Claudia Mullen:
It depended on what was going on at the time. Sometimes they would send me to ... they knew people in
the city who were involved in the white supremacy groups ... sometimes they would send me out to Klan
meetings and I would have to go to one of them at night and watch things being done to other people and
then ... have things done to me ... be raped or eaten or whatever ... you had enough trauma to make you
forget whatever you were starting to remember. This would make it go away. Then you would forget
this as soon as it happened too. Because nobody wants to remember something like that. One of the
mind's defences I guess when something really horrible happens is to forget it right away, usually. If it's
bad enough. And then of course I had the personalities ... they would come out for the trauma and then
they would go back ... and so Claudia would have no memory of what just happened. My shadows
would, but I wouldn't. Unless they would give me the memory, it was as if it never happened to me. I
would be sore, hurt, bruised, whatever, but I wouldn't know why so I would go to Dr. Brown or Dr.
Heath and they would explain what happened to me. And usually they would make up some story about
how I tried to hurt myself, that I tried to kill myself again. I thought I was suicidal my whole life because
they told me I was.
Wayne Morris:
Did you feel the doctors were deliberately creating dissociation with you?
Claudia Mullen:
They knew that I could dissociate from the beginning, so they just caused me to dissociate even more,
because the more you split, the easier it was to hide what they were doing. In other words, you can only
split ... they can't make you split, can't make you dissociate, but they can create the circumstances that
they know if you are able to dissociate you will, you will do it. Like the trauma I just described, by
sending me out to a Masonic Lodge for a party ... they would send me out and they knew something
horrible was going to happen to me. They knew that I would split. That someone would be created to
take whatever happened that night, and probably that's all they would do, and then they would go back,
and then, you know, go to sleep, become dormant. These are the shadows that I've talked about, that I
have integrated. Once they gave me the memory up to that experience, then they integrate. So, they
create circumstances to make you split, and split, and split, and the more you split the less chance you
have of ever healing ... the more crazy you are going to sound if you ever do go to work with a
psychiatrist, therapist, because there was always that chance ... that I might get away from them and seek
help from someone other than the "good doctors" that I knew already. So they had to make you seem as
crazy as possible, and of course, the more alters you have, the more bizarre you are going to seem to
people. The more bizarre the trauma ... like the camp I would go to across the lake ... that Mr. Fenner
had ... they would put on these ceremonies. A lot of times it was fake stuff. They would pretend to cut
people open or kill babies. Back then I thought it was real, it was all happening. If you describe
something like that about a ceremony where a baby is cut up and killed and eaten, people are going to
think you're insance, this didn't happen.
So they would kind of mimic Satanic rituals to make it seem like that had happened, and if I ever told
anybody, they would dismiss it right away.
Wayne Morris:
So you feel that these things were done basically to cover the doctors' tracks ...
Claudia Mullen:
Yeah, right. To make it seem, if I ever remembered, I would remember first the incest stuff, the stuff at
home, and then it would gradually go from that to the ritual stuff. Rituals meaning either Satanic stuff
across the lake ... rituals ... like the white supremacy groups ... like the rituals that they do ... burning the
crosses. I mean I actually saw them kill people, black people. This is like in the early 60's. I went to a
couple of Masonic parties at a Lodge which was located right near the research building ... the research
building for animal research in New Orleans, and it is still there as a matter of fact. I have been back
there. They sent me there sometimes, for certain tests, for experiments ... there was a Masonic Lodge
right around the corner from it ... and they sent me to a couple of parties there. These people go crazy at
these parties. These men, they just get drunk and ... they pass you around ... it's horrible what they do.
This of course makes it seem like ... if I remember ... well, I remember being at this party and these men
were hurting me but I don't remember doctors being involved, I don't remember Tulane University being
involved, or anybody from Maryland. I would remember this Masonic Lodge and so that's how they
cover their tracks.
Wayne Morris:
Was it sexual abuse that was going on or other kinds of abuse at these parties?
Claudia Mullen:
They would make you perform sexually. They would make you watch other people perform. They
would have everything you could imagine, even bringing in animals ... and you had to watch. It's just as
bad as having it done to yourself ... sometimes watching is just as bad ...
Wayne Morris:
Watching it being done to other children or ...
Claudia Mullen:
Yeah, especially if it's people younger than yourself. You're a child and you have to stand there and
watch a little kid, half your age, being tortured or raped, or whatever. I mean, that's as bad as having it
done to yourself. You would almost rather it be done to you because ... you know what it's like, and you
don't want to watch it. Then they would give you the choice ... well, then, you could take their place.
And then you would have to make the decision whether it's going to be you or her, and then if you
decide not to do it, then you have to live with the guilt that it happened to someone else because you
decided not to do it. So they had you either way you looked at it ... you're screwed either way usually.
There was no way out of any of these situations.
Wayne Morris:
When you remember this Lodge, did you make attempts to verify where it was?
Claudia Mullen:
Yeah, we went there. We went to the Lodge, talked to people, but it's not a Lodge anymore, it's a public
health building now. We talked to people who said, yeah, it was a Masonic Lodge at one time. Valerie
and I went there. We went to Camp Nichols which I said was a police training ground now, but they said
it was an arsenal at one time, and we went into a room where I stayed when I was there. They did some
kind of bizarre ... I guess I was about eight ... there were two other children I was put with ... a boy and a
little girl about five years old. And they would do things like ... I guess just to traumatize you ... they
would do things ... sexual to you, or physically hurt you, beat you or whatever, and then they would say,
well, you have to choose somebody, which person is going to live or die? The boy or the girl? They
would give you choices like that. Impossible situations. And then, they would go through the motions
where they would take one of the kids outside, kill them, they didn't, I am sure they didn't, I'm sure it
was like a play they put on ... but it was just to put you through these mind games ... just to mess up
your ... I don't know what they were doing ... just trauma, I know that. By the time they were finished,
you didn't know if you were coming or going. It just seemed so bizarre, and if I had ever remembered it
before now, before I had a good therapist to help me, and who validated the fact that these things do
happen ... anybody else would think you were just crazy, and they would lock you up and throw away
the key.
Wayne Morris:
I think that was their intent. It seems that incorporating ...
Claudia Mullen:
And there were a lot of messages they gave you over the years, that if you did start remembering this,
the guilt would be so bad, that you would have to kill yourself, and they were hoping that by now, I
would have killed myself and I haven't (laughs) ... they are pretty pissed off about it, the people that are
left ...
Wayne Morris:
Did you feel that they were using this trauma to create dissociation for other purposes than just hiding
the fact that they were doing the experiments on you?
Claudia Mullen:
I think they were doing it also just to see what they could do ... they could take a child's mind ... and
what could they actually do? How much could they cause her to split? How many times? How much
could they do to somebody, and how quickly could they forget it? Just to see what could be done ... just
for the hell of it, I guess.
Wayne Morris:
Perhaps that was part of the experimentation itself ...
Claudia Mullen:
Yeah. They had a lot of different projects. It wasn't all sexual stuff -- there were a lot of projects that
were just about mind control. They had these names for the projects that were -- you would never know
what the project was really about -- Sensitive Research - that was part of the Operational side of the CIA
-- that was a department of the CIA - well, it was sexual stuff. Sensitive Research? That could be just
about anything, right? And Uncle Richard was head of the Sensitive Research Department, "Dirty Tricks
Department" he called it. Uncle Richard turned out to be, after I described him, and had a lot of
memories about him, I found out from one of the experts that his name was Richard Helms.
Wayne Morris:
And he was the CIA Director at a certain point ...
Claudia Mullen:
When I knew him, he was the Deputy Director ... they called him "the Deputy". I can remember being
impressed because I loved cowboys, cowboy movies and stuff, so when he told me he was a deputy,
that's all I heard, and I thought he was a deputy like in the Old West. He didn't really molest me or do
anything to me until I got to be about 13 and then he started all of a sudden ... it was "call me Uncle
Richard". Before that he would pretty much dismiss me or talk around me or not pay any attention to
me. I was always really impressed by that because he seemed to have a lot of power, everybody seemed
to listen to what he had to say, he dressed in the most expensive clothes, he always looked really nice, he
had everybody waiting on him hand and foot. He was an impressive man and I was always in awe of
him. All of a sudden, when I turned 13, he started paying attention to me and that really impressed me. I
thought I must be really special ... this guy says call me Uncle Richard now ... it turns out he liked
teenage girls, he didn't like children. He would purposely take me to places where he knew they didn't
have cameras because he knew all about the cameras, the filming.
Wayne Morris:
I wonder if we could go through the people that you have mentioned in your testimony and if we could
talk one by one about exactly what they were involved in ... in the experimentation? Maybe we could
start with Sidney Gottlieb ...
Claudia Mullen:
Okay. Sidney Gottlieb is one of the first people that I remember from when I was 8 years old, he was
there from the beginning. I knew that he worked for "The Agency". They always referred to "The
Agency". They made no secret of the fact that it was the CIA. Sometimes I would overhear or they
would tell me which department they were from -- he was in the Science and Technology Department,
he said. He worked very closely with Martin Orne, a Dr. Steven Aldridge, and Morse Allen. Apparently
he and Morse Allen had been working together since this whole thing started -- since the late 1940's or
early 50's -- and they were all good friends with Richard Helms too, which was kind of odd because they
were complete opposites to each other -- they seemed like people who could never get along together,
yet they were very good friends. Gottlieb had a lot to do with radiation -- with any kind of research. I
remember him all the way from when I was little through the time I was in high school, and after that I
didn't see him much, I didn't hear about him much. I don't know where he went, what he was doing. He
must have been involved with something else.
Wayne Morris:
So, how many years was he involved and what happened to you?
Claudia Mullen:
>From eight years old to sixteen years -- about eight years. He told me he raised goats. They would talk
about themselves sometimes. It is amazing. These people would just ... as if they figured I wasn't going
to remember anything when I left, wherever I was. So they were just free to talk and sometimes they just
used to like to brag about themselves. I remember so much about them because basically they were
arrogant, most of them were arrogant people and they liked you to know how important they were, or
how many kids they had, how much power they had -- so they would say what their title was or
something to impress you I guess. Thinking the whole time that "she is not going to remember" or
thinking they are talking to a child who doesn't even understand the words they are using, not knowing
that years later I am going to remember the same words and understand their meaning.
Wayne Morris:
You mentioned Dr. Ewen Cameron was specifically involved in the electroshock. You do have a sense
of how long of a period he was involved with your experimentation?
Claudia Mullen:
They called a lot of them in as "consultants". Dr. Heath or Dr. Green would say, "let's call Cameron in ...
to test her." Next thing I knew, I would be called back to Tulane and here was the "Camera Man",
Cameron. He came in around 1960 when I was about 9 or 10. He was there a lot at first, testing how
much electricity was too much, they didn't want to fry my brain or anything because they needed me to
seem fairly intelligent because I had to associate with people. I had to go back to school, so they had to
be very careful when they used stuff on me, they couldn't disfigure me. I guess I was lucky in that sense,
that I was in a private girls' school, I was from a wealthy family and they had to send me back home. My
family wasn't involved in this per se. My mom knew they were using me, but she didn't know what
exactly - so they had to send me back in fairly good condition. So that made me one of the lucky ones.
For the ones from homeless families, or poor families - they didn't care what condition they sent them
back in, or even if they sent the child back at all. They would use things on them that would disfigure
them, but it didn't matter. In my case, I was fortunate.
Another thing was that Dr. Heath wanted to implant something in my brain and Mr. Fenner wouldn't let
him. He said how am I going to explain this to her mother? We can't send her home with her head
shaved, so I got out of having implants in my brain because of that.
But you asked me about Cameron. I knew him from about 1959 or 1960 and then when I was in high
school one day, just out of the blue, someone said, "he fell off a mountain" - somebody named
"Cleghorn" was coming to get me to do the electric shock. I was told years later, that yeah, he was
mountain-climbing or skiing and fell off a mountain and died, so that was true.
Wayne Morris:
Did you have a sense of who this Cleghorn person was?
Claudia Mullen:
He worked with Cameron very closely. I guess he was from the same place. He liked to use electricity,
only he thought Cameron didn't use enough. He believed in using a lot more. He didn't try to get along
with you, or act friendly in any way. He was very cold. Whereas Cameron could talk to you or attempt
to be friendly. Some of them were like that. They would introduce themselves, ask questions. Others just
did what they had to do and got out of there and never said a word.
Wayne Morris:
So how many years did you come in contact with Dr. Cameron, from 1959-60 until when ...
Claudia Mullen:
I think until I was about 16 or 16 1/2, so that would be 1966 or 1967 and I was told he had fallen off a
mountain. I know I was in high school, the latter part of high school. Around 1966 or 1967. The thing I
was telling you about - the messages he would give me - he would tape record and then they would play
at night? They called it something called "psychic driving". That's what the messages were called.
Wayne Morris:
And Martin Orne? What was his involvement?
Claudia Mullen:
Oh boy. He was one of the scariest people. He was with Dr. Brown, my monitor, at the NIH in the
1950's and they were good friends. He said he was an expert in lie detection and that he could always tell
when someone was lying, that he had invented the lie detector or something ... He is a very arrogant
person and thinks a lot of himself so he could have told me a lot of lies about what he could do and what
he couldn't do. There wasn't anything he couldn't do ... supposedly. He could tell whenever you were
lying. He hated everyone. He didn't get along with anyone. He called me "the little bitch" - that was his
nickname for me. He wouldn't even call me by name. He mainly did hypnosis type stuff, he was always
there for the shock treatments, if nothing else, just to watch ... When they asked me questions, he would
be the one to tell them whether I was lying or not. He would have me hooked up to a couple of
machines, he would have electrodes on my head and he said he could read the machines and tell whether
I was lying or not. I guess it was like a lie detector, I don't know. He's still alive.
Claudia Mullen:
He's still alive in Philadelphia. I called him, he was one of the people i called, cause I remembered him,
before i started getting all these memories back. I remembered Robert Heath, of course Dr. Brown, and i
remembered this Martin Orne.
Wayne Morris:
So, at what point did you phone him back?
Claudia Mullen:
I phoned him ... after ... the rape happened in October of 1992. That next spring. I started getting weird
nightmares and flashbacks. I remembered Martin Orne.
Wayne Morris:
You remembered him as one of your so-called "good" doctors.
Claudia Mullen:
Right. I had his home number. So I called him and he said had I called Dr. Heath. I said "yeah, but he
wants me to come back for more electric shock treatments." So Orne said, "that's what you need to do
then." I said, why did you do these things to me? I remember you. You were so mean." He said he never
did anything to hurt me, that he was just there as a consultant. He swore up and down he never did
anything to hurt me. Then I heard ... after we got back from Washington testifying ... I heard that he had
a stroke. He is still paralyzed from the stroke I think.
Wayne Morris:
And what about Dr. Robert Heath? What aspects was he specifically involved with?
Claudia Mullen:
He is a neuropsychiatrist and he is the head of the department at Tulane University. It was his
department that was given the money, the grant money. He was also given a whole wing of the medical
school (just to use for experiments) by Mr. Fenner who was the Chairman of the Board of Tulane
Medical School. There were just a lot of children, I remember. We weren't allowed to talk to each other.
We weren't even supposed to see each other, but you could hear them sometimes. We would stay on this
wing where there weren't any nurses, right? It was just like orderlies and the doctors, but it wasn't a
regular hospital like with nurses who came into see you. You had monitors in your room and they
watched you. I am pretty sure they had a camera in your room. And Dr. Heath was the head of the
department there, and he also was known for doing a lot of work on brains ... experimenting on people's
brains and he was the one who wanted to put an implant in my brain so that he could "telegraph", he
said, "messages to me" when I was doing the entrapment thing with men that he could stimulate
different parts of your brain or something ... he could do it by you know ... remote ... he didn't call it
remote control ... he said he could access my brain from a distance, but he had to implant a box in your
head.
Wayne Morris:
So would you say he was the main doctor in charge of what happened to you?
Claudia Mullen:
Yes. He was considered "my" doctor, like on record. I had to have a record, for charts, at Tulane under
the name Chrystal Stone, and he was Chrystal Stone's doctor. Of course he has now removed my
records. When I called him the first time, and said "what did you do to me? I am having these memories,
and I thought you were my doctor back then." My mother had brought me to Tulane because Mr. Fenner
had told her he thought they could help me at Tulane because I was having behavioural problems at
home, and I was real little. This was before Deep Creek Lodge and all that before I was eight years old.
She said I was acting out and I was crying lots ... wetting the bed and stuff like that and so Mr. Fenner
suggested that she should bring me to Tulane to see this Dr. Heath. That's how I met him. She signed
papers giving him permission to do anything he found necessary to help me, so he had free reign to do
anything he wanted to me with my mother's permission. He would call and tell her, well Claudia needs
to come in for a treatment ... bring her in ... or ... have somebody bring her in. She would just drop me
off in front of the building ... you know six or seven years old and she would just drop me off at this big
huge hospital and I would have to go in and take this elevator up and a woman would come and get me
and take me to the room. I would be there for days, sometimes weeks and the next thing I knew I would
wake up one morning and Dr. Heath would be standing there and he would say, "well, how are you
feeling dear?" "Are you ready to go home?" He would tell me that I was much better and that I wouldn't
misbehave anymore and I wouldn't have any clue as to what happened to me while I was there. I would
just wake up with no memory of what happened and he would tell me I had been good, and obedient,
and it was time to go home. So he would send me home, and he would call my mother if I had like
bruises or anything that had to be explained and he would give her some explanation as to how they had
happened. Or if I was bleeding he would tell her that they had to do an examination or a test and that had
made me bleed. And she didn't question anything, I don't think she really cared. She didn't want to
know.
Wayne Morris:
And what about Morse Allen? You mentioned him. From what you remember, what was his
involvement?
Claudia Mullen:
He was with the department that was called Science and Technology. I think at one time Martin Orne
was the head of that department. He was with ORD, Office of Research and Development, and Morse
Allen was the head of that. It was research on a whole bunch of different things, but I know he had a lot
to do with radiation because I heard him talk about it, but he also worked with the project which
involved me. I remember him pretty much from the beginning ... from 1958 through some time in high
school and then I don't remember him any more.
Wayne Morris:
And what about L. Wilson Greene whom you also mentioned ...
Claudia Mullen:
Next to Heath, I guess he had the most authority or whatever you wanted to call it. He was a German
doctor. Liam was his first name, but he hated being called anything but Dr. Greene. He was head of
Edgewood Arsenal, that's where his office was ... in Fort Dietrich, Maryland but he came to Tulane quite
a bit and worked with Dr. Heath on the projects. He told me, when I was about fourteen or fifteen, he
told one of my shadows the story ... how he got involved. He said he was Jewish, and he was iin a
concentration camp when the war ended and the Nazis had killed his sister and put him in a
concentration camp. He had met the Angel of Death there, and that was his hero and he used to love to
watch him do experiments on twins and everything ... I didn't know who the Angel of Death was ... I
didn't even know who that was. It turned out it was Mengele. Dr. Greene said that he was put in the
camp when he was fifteen ... I don't know how long he stayed ... but when the war ended, the United
States paid to bring him back to the U.S. and put him through medical school and now they paid him to
do these experiments. So he said, your government paid for me to do things to you and he thought our
government was made up of fools, everybody was a fool, that they were stupid but he said he got paid
by them, so they were the ones who got him out of the camp ...
Wayne Morris:
What you are saying is it seems that L. Wilson Greene, although a victim at the concentration camps
under Mengele, had somehow associated himself ... and helped with the experiments ...
Claudia Mullen:
He had gotten in good with Mengele by showing an interest in the experiments they were doing and so it
became like ... he wasn't really a prisoner anymore, it was more like he worked as his assistant, almost,
even though he was Jewish ... he showed a lot of morbid interest in what they were doing. This was his
story ... I don't know if it's true. He told me this ... I don't think he told anyone else ... I think he told
everybody different things ... this is the story he told me. He didn't really talk about himself. He didn't
seem to have any private life. He didn't seem to have a wife, or children. He seemed to always be
travelling from one place to another. I never even knew where he stayed when he was in New Orleans
until years later I found out that he stayed at Camp Nichols. I thought he lived at the hospital because he
was always there.
Wayne Morris:
Were any of the doctors involved in sexually abusing you while this experimentation was going on?
Claudia Mullen:
Yes. A lot of them were. Most of them took advantage of the fact that ... as long as they were there, they
had access to ... they would ... you know ... do whatever they wanted. One of the few who didn't was
Gottlieb ... I was told it was kind of a joke that was going around that he only liked little boys ... I guess
that's why he didn't want anything to do with me. Martin Orne did though. Dr. Greene did a couple of
times. Dr. Brown, and of course a lot of the Agency men ... they did. Oh, Hamilton. He was a horrible
man. James Hamilton. He was from California I think. Yes, Stanford or .. he was from California and he
was involved in projects that had to do with deviant sexual behaviour and ... every time he got a chance,
from the time I was eight years old, until in my twenties, he took advantage of it. They even had a tape
of him ... he didn't seem to really care though.
Wayne Morris:
What kind of other people were you forced to have sex with in terms of blackmailing, and what were
their backgrounds?
Claudia Mullen:
Military people. They had these people called the Inspector Generals that came around. They would go
around the country looking at different places where they were doing these projects and they would
determine if the money was being well spent or not. So one of the ways they would convince them that
the money was being used well was by offering them whoever they wanted. They usually wore uniforms
so I knew they were in the military. They were Inspectors. They would say the Inspector is coming, you
had better be nice to him, and you had better do whatever he wants. And they always took advantage of
you. One was the man with the wings on his jacket. He was a Colonel and I guess he was in the Air
Force ... I guess that's why he had wings on his jacket. He was one of the Inspectors that came. Then
there was an Admiral that came, he was an Inspector. That was mainly the military men ... they were
either present at ... They used to have these things like ... I went to Texas a few times. I went to this
placed called "TRIMS" and I remember it had the letters on the outside of the gate and I remember "R"
was for Research, "T" was for Texas. I was brought there and they would put on these, not "shows" but I
guess they had to show a lot of people, like military, agency people ... the doctors would have to show
what progress they were making on the projects. And so they would present different subjects that were
being used and show what they were able to accomplish. And you had to get in front of this audience of
people, it's like an auditorium and they did things like ... they could create ... one of the things they could
do was like ... when you split sometimes ... you can actually cause anaesthesia in your body ... like
splitting off that part and you don't feel the pain at the time it is happening, but you feel it later ... and
they would do things that would cause a lot of pain but obviously weren't causing pain at the time and
everybody would ooh and aahhh over that because it was something they had never seen before. And
this was how they would prove they were using the money they were being given. They had to show
people that they weren't just spending it on hotel rooms and food and stuff. They had to show they were
actually doing research. I remember that distinctly, in Texas, having that being done, where they would
inflict pain and you wouldn't feel it. They would put you in a trance under hypnosis, tell you that you
couldn't feel this part of your body, put a lit candle on it ... and you wouldn't feel anything. Later on you
would feel the burn, but it was a demonstration. I think it was an Air Force base that I was at ... I guess
people would fly in.
I wasn't the only one ... like a whole line of people waiting just to go in, and we all had hospital gowns
on, and Dr. Heath and Dr. Greene brought me in and they would talk to the audience and say what they
were going to do and then ...
Wayne Morris:
I wonder if we can talk about the specific programs that you believed you were involved in that you
might have overheard. I know you mentioned MKULTRA. In terms of your experience, what was
MKULTRA about, and maybe we could go through some of the other projects ...
Claudia Mullen:
This is how it was kind of explained to me ... not really explained ... but as I overheard them talking
about it. Back during WWII when they started all this research stuff, they had a project called
BLUEBIRD and they changed the name because there was another branch of the government doing
something called BLUEBIRD. So they changed it to ARTICHOKE. The Big A, they called it. They
were trying to create amnesia. I think they were going to use it on soldiers but they had to test it on
people first. There was a professor who was doing it ... I never met him anything, I just heard them
talking about him.
This eventually became MKULTRA. MKULTRA was like the big generic name for all the other
projects ... they went under MKULTRA ... MK was supposed to stand for Mind Control. I know the
spelling wasn't right but ...
Wayne Morris:
It would be the correct spelling using the German word "kontrol" ...
Claudia Mullen:
Maybe Dr. Gottlieb thought of that then. ULTRA was for the ultimate in the mind control. One time I
went to Mexico City briefly to get films of a person there ... MKULTRA 128 they called it ... then it
would be sub-project 18, and I was subject #3. After an experiment was over, Dr. Heath and whoever
was in charge of it - most of the time it was Dr. Heath because he was in charge of names - he would
have to sit down and dictate (like doctors do, you know they dictate their notes about a case into a
machine after surgery or something) -- well they would have to do the same thing, because it had to go
on the records into the CIA files. Every now and then I would sit there and listen. I was supposed to be
sleeping, resting, something ... I would be listening and that part of me that had a photographic memory
would be memorizing what they were saying. He would go into this long, detailed explanation of the
project they had just done, and every now and then he would say the word "delete" -- ie MKULTRA
July 1963 in Mexico City delete. That would mean delete the last thing he just said, because sometimes
they didn't want to give too much detail.
There were other projects I wasn't involved in but I overheard them talking about, like MKNAOMI and
that had to do with drugs that they used to do different things to soldiers, like they were going to use it
on the enemy. They called it the K problem, which was paralysis. I would hear ... Operation Secret was
under MKULTRA and that was a project and it had to do with the brain. MKSEARCH - I guess it was
germ warfare, biological, and something to do with radiation. MKULTRA - Subproject #3 was to do
with safe houses which they used, like the Roosevelt Hotel here in New Orleans -- a place they kept all
year round, with cameras, and it was some place safe they could use and not worry about anybody
finding out about it. Something to do with hypnosis, radiation or electricity came under ORD (Office of
Research and Development) and Martin was Technical Science Director for a long time. Operation
CHATTER had to do with giving you drugs to make you talk -- trying different drugs on enemy soldiers
to try and make them talk.
Wayne Morris:
What would you like to see done to help yourself and other survivors who have gone through this?
Claudia Mullen:
I would like to see us validated by opening up whatever CIA files remain classified, and I feel like a lot
of the information I have given will be there. I know that my name is listed in the files because I actually
saw it on a file in 1964. I had access to a file that was left out in a room and my name, Chrystal Stone,
was on there and there was a memo that was going to be sent to the Director. I have the feeling that even
though they destroyed a lot of the files, there will be some left. Possibly with my name on it. And for the
facts that people have given, it will be validation. Even though these people can't be prosecuted, I want
the President to acknowledge that it happened and that something should be done about it.
Wayne Morris:
How do you see this coming about? One element is declassifying the files that are still left ...
Claudia Mullen:
I think they should have another Commission -- this time on mind control, specifically on mind control.
Have an investigation -- ie. Tuskagee, those experiments. There is supposed to be another Commission
that President Clinton is opening on other CIA stuff so I think I would like to see him have a Committee
specifically for mind control, and looking in the CIA files specifically for mind control -- especially
done on children. Because that's the most horrible part of all this is that they did this to children -- it
wasn't just unwitting citizens that got hurt -- they did this to little kids, did these horrible things to
children and they didn't think anything of it.They didn't feel any guilt or remorse about it -- I know that.
Wayne Morris:
From what you remember, what is your sense of how many other children were involved?
Claudia Mullen:
I am sure there were thousands and thousands ... I mean just from the amount of children I saw that
summer at Deep Creek Lodge in Maryland -- there must have been 75 kids there -- and you can imagine
that was just one time that I went -- how many other kids were involved -- and every time they went
there, there were another 75 kids and multiply that by times all over the country. You must be talking
about thousands. All the kids are grown up now and I think it should be acknowledged that it did happen
to us and to make sure that it is not happening any more. How do we know that they are still not doing
things like this?
Wayne Morris:
Have you been in contact with other survivors?
Claudia Mullen:
Yes. In contact all the time through the Internet, I meet them at conferences.
Wayne Morris:
And when did you start getting in contact with other survivors?
Claudia Mullen:
Right after Washington. Before that I was just mainly involved in my own therapy and that was the first
contact I had with any other survivors, in Washington, D.C. Since then it's been constant contact with
people because there would be similarities. They would have similar things that had happened to them
that I had talked about. Or just the fact that there were a lot of us who were adopted who were used in
these experiments. I am sure there is a reason for that. I am sure there is an inordinate amount of
children who were adopted that were used.
Wayne Morris:
What would you want or expect as an outcome if these hearings were held on mind control experiments?
Claudia Mullen:
I want the President to acknowledge -- to come out and tell the world that this did happen, that the
government was behind it, that they paid for it, that our tax dollars paid for it. I don't expect much in
compensation as far as money, I mean that's not why I am doing it. I don't know if there will be any
money but that's not the point. The point is that people need to know that what our government is
capable of doing, what they did, and they should own up to it. Most of the people are dead, what's the
point of going into it -- but we need to acknowledge that this kind of thing can happen, has happened,
document it so that it never happens again so that people aren't living in a Dreamworld where the
government doesn't do things like this, not in this country. But they do and they did ... and people need
to know that.
Wayne Morris:
What can people who are listening, that may want to help further progress on getting hearings started ...
Claudia Mullen:
Write to the White House, to the President and Mrs. Clinton -- if they have a computer you can e-mail
them directly. If everybody were to write and demand there be Hearings on Mind Control Experiments
done on children, I think they would have to listen. If victims come forward and say that "I want this
looked into" then the files have to be opened, they have to allow people to see what is in the files. There
is no reason to keep them classified any more. They need to contact their senators and congressmen, and
keep after the President until something is done.
Wayne Morris:
Claudia I would like to thank you very much for joining and being part of this radio series. I know it's ...
I consider it extremely brave of you to come forward with your experiences that you have remembered
of these horrific experiments that are inexcusable, and I think people do have to make the government
accountable for what they have done.
Claudia Mullen:
Thank you Wayne. I definitely agree, and I would be glad to talk to anyone that wants to contact me
through the internet. E-mail address cmullen267@aol.com.
Wayne Morris:
Thank you Claudia.
Claudia Mullen:
Thank you Wayne.
We have been listening to an interview with Claudia Mullen a survivor of US government mind control
and the Advocacy Committee for Human Experimentation Survivors - Mind Control (ACHES-MC) can
be found at www.aches-mc.org.
Contents
Closing Comments from Episodes
We've been listening to an interview with Claudia Mullen, a survivor of mind control experiments done
by the U.S. government. She had referred in her presentation in particular to the third person "she".
Claudia was actually describing herself either at an earlier age or as a different alter of her multiple
personalities. I would like to also announce that this radio series is being re-broadcast on Monday nights
at 10pm and this Monday is the 2nd broadcast in the radio series. On the Sunday morning show we are
at broadcast 13 this week. Also for people with web access, you can get transcripts of this radio series at
www.mk.net/~mcf/ckln-hm.htm.
You have been listening to International Connections here on CKLN FM.
________
You have been listening to Claudia Mullen, a survivor of government mind control. She has given
testimony at the U.S. Presidential Hearings on Human Radiation Experiments in March, 1995. Her
accounts include being experimented on, starting when she was eight years old at Tulane University in
New Orleans, and subsequently being used as a mind control slave to sexually entrap prominent
politicians and officials to blackmail them such as Senator Frank Church who headed the Church
Committee Hearings into CIA wrongdoings as we have heard in today's interview. We have also heard
her accounts of how Dr. Ewen Cameron was responsible for electro-shocking her so she would forget
the weekends of experimentation and the sexual blackmail situations. Stay tuned next week for Part 3 of
this interview. Also tune in to Monday nights at 10 pm for rebroadcasts of previous shows on mind
control on the International Connection 88.1.
Contents


Lecture by Authors Walter Bowart,
Alan Scheflin, and Randy Noblitt
Wayne Morris:
We are in week #9 of a radio series about mind control in Canada and the U.S., and today we're going to
be hearing a lecture by some of the original writers about this topic. We're going to hear from Walter
Bowart who wrote Operation Mind Control back in 1978, Dr. Alan Scheflin who wrote The Mind
Manipulators also in 1978 based on the files that were released in the 1977 Kennedy Hearings in the U.
S. We're also going to hear from Randy Noblitt who has written about cult ritual abuse. This lecture was
recorded at a conference on cult abuse, trauma and dissociation Dallas, Texas in 1995. You're listening
to CKLN 88.1 fm.
PAMELA PERSKIN:
Before we get started here I had a couple of remarks that I just would like to make. Everybody is here
for their own purposes. Either you are survivors or you know survivors or you treat survivors or all of
the above, and we hope that you'll gain something from your interacting both with our presenters and
with one another. We believe that there is a diversity of opinion as to what is going on, what's
happening. We should all be concerned that whatever is happening, it's producing people who are being
damaged, and it's our responsibility as citizens and as human beings to reach out and try to stop this. I'd
like to present our first speaker, Dr. Randy Noblitt. He is a clinical psychologist in private practice. He
has developed a lot of expertise, somewhat against his will, in the area of ritual and cult abuse. He's the
author of a book to be published in August entitled Cult and Ritual Abuse: Its History, Antropology and
Recent Discovery in Contemporary America. So, without further ado here's Dr. Noblitt.
(applause)
Randy Noblitt:
Actually, I'm not going to be a speaker right now, I'm just going to make a few comments and introduce
the panel that we have today, which... I am in awe of the opportunity to stand up here with these
gentlemen. I'm very happy that we've been able to attract such a profoundly skilled, well-known,
courageous group of people to come here and talk. First of all, we have a gentleman that many of you,
probably almost everyone here knows or has heard of. Some of you may have been fortunate enough to
see or read his book, Operation Mind Control. I'd be interested in hearing more from Walter Bowart
why I can't go to the store and buy a copy of it, and maybe he'll tell us all some more about that. But he
has an organization called The Freedom Of Thought Foundation, and today, Walter Bowart, who is one
of the eminent international experts on mind control, will speak to us a little bit on the subject of mind
control. So, I introduce to you Walter Bowart.
(applause)
Walter Bowart:
Thank you, Randy. Thank you, Pam. I haven't seen Alan Scheflin in, what, twenty-five years, when we
went over all of those C.I.A. documents in, what, 1977?
Alan Scheflin:
1976/1977.
Walter Bowart:
And I was looking at people registering and I said, I was thinking, "Is that Alan? {slight laugh} Is that
Alan?," you know how you do when you're trying to meet somebody at the airport and you haven't seen
them for years, but then immediately as soon as I saw him I recognized him again. I'm a journalist, and
in 1978 I published a book, it was published in five languages, called Operation Mind Control, and I
was paid full royalties for millions of copies, it was a best seller. I went on a national tour in the United
States. I did ninety-eight radio and television interviews in thirty-three cities in thirty days. When I went
through O'Hare Airport in Chicago, going out for two weeks, I saw racks and racks full of the book, and
I came back two weeks later and there were none, but nobody seems to have that book. The book is now
fetching $250 in used bookstores if you can find it, if it's in mint condition. If it's in tattered and torn dog-
eared condition, that little $3 paperback is worth $20 today. I have since updated it and I have put out a
thing that's actually two volumes, twice the size, and revised all of my errors, because I didn't know
what multiple personality was in those days, really. I didn't diagnose anything, I just reported what had
happened. And today doctors and psychiatrists, psychologists and therapists are using the book and
saying, "That's a multiple personality," Candy Jones and all the others that I mentioned. Since then... By
that time, in 1978 before the book came out, I'd interviewed three hundred survivors, and now I've
interviewed thousands and I've lost count. I've seen several patterns emerge, and one of them is the
Satanic or cult ritual abuse pattern, and the other one's the alien abduction experience, and I'm talking
later in the week on that subject and I have some very interesting charts and graphs that were developed
by a psychologist who wishes to be, go anonymous, remain anonymous, and she and I have developed,
added the mind control to the comparison of descriptions and reports from people that report alien
abduction experiences, ritual abuse, and the government mind control side of things. And it's very
interesting for the similarity, there are so many similarities it looks like one and the same thing, but it's
worth discussing the differences and that's what I'll, what will be coming up. I founded the Freedom Of
Thought Foundation because I'm trying to network people who have known for now almost thirty years
and who are duplicating their efforts, a lot of them, everybody's got a little group and everybody's goin'
in their own direction and there hasn't been much communication nationally and internationally. For
example, in Germany today the prevalent belief system in the wards, in the psychiatric wards in
hospitals, is that there's no such thing as M.P.D., and probably that's the way they'd like to keep it.
Probably for years here that was what gave the intelligence community the advantage, because these
people, I think, were diagnosed primarily probably as schizophrenic or something in those days, or some
kind of erratic diagnosis, which is happening today. You change the manual, the diagnostic manual, and
you get different diagnoses, and if you change the manual enough you're gonna have ten or twelve
different diagnoses for the same thing. I'm sure you've seen that. So, I formed the Freedom Of Thought
Foundation for the purpose of networking, for the purpose of communicating this information, we
publish a monthly newsletter, but to me, at least in my heart, the main ...the thing I kept running up
against and I know maybe Alan did, too, and maybe all of you have, is the National Security Act Of
1947. It says in the interests of national security all of your civil rights can be suspended. Criminals can
be let loose because they work for the Department Of Defense, and a lot of these people that have
perpetrated the crimes that we've seen and the abuse, the sadistic abuse that we're describing here at this
conference and the thing that we call mind control, have done that under the charter of The National
Security Act Of 1947. The act covers probably more criminal behaviour than it does secrets at this time,
there's no more cold war, so I think that the time has come for us to call for the abolition or the repeal of
The National Security Act, and for us as citizens to take back our Bill Of Rights and our Constitution,
(applause) thank you ... and also to hold a cold war crimes trial and prosecute the tyrants that have done
this. (applause) Thank you. I feel the same way you do. March 15th last, Valerie Wolf testified before
The President's Commission On Radiation, and through I think Randy and Mark I was fortunate enough
to talk to her before, almost during and after the testimony. She took two survivors with her, one with
amazing abilities that you very often find with re-integrated multiple personalities or multiple
personalities that aren't re-integrated for that matter, an incredible eidetic memory, and she had dates and
codes and times and names of the doctors, and they named six doctors, among them Martin T. Orne of
The University Of Pennsylvania, somebody I've been trying to interview for thirty {slight laugh} years,
and he's always run out. I almost got him on the golf course one time, but he's always run from me.
Also, Dr. Sidney Gottlieb, the C.I.A. doctor, and Col. L. Wilson Green, U.S. Army Defense Intelligence,
Chemical Warfare Division, Defense Intelligence Agency. These men and three others who, I didn't
recognize their names, were among the doctors and professionals that were named in this. I said... I told
a local doctor, a psychiatrist here one time talking on the phone, I said, " You know, you all, you
psychiatrists created this mess, and it's gonna be up to you to clean it up," and he agreed with me, and
then I said, well, then I'd give him a year or two and hold him to it, and if he doesn't get busy and do
something about it I'm gonna add his name to the list, 'cause if you're not part of the solution you're part
of the problem as far as I'm concerned. You all know about the experimentation that was done on
everyone. We are a nation of Guinea pigs since 1940, and the earliest mind control situation that I've run
across in the modern context was the situation of a naval officer who apparently was working either
behind enemy lines or... He was on a, one of the islands that were in Japanese territory, and so he got
taken by the Japanese, captured by the Japanese, and he was tortured, but before that it seems as though
he did some torturing himself. He knew a lot about the atrocities of war, so he had Post Traumatic Stress
Disorder, and the Naval Intelligence people used their techniques that were being developed in MKUltra
in those days to suppress his memories. He did not remember, and he died in the early '90's, or late '80's.
He didn't remember a thing. He had a wife and children, he'd raised them, almost fifty years went by,
everything was hunky-dory, he was blissfully oblivious, total amnesia, but then he started having
cardiovascular accidents or strokes, and back came all these memories, and he died in terror, screaming
the nightmares that he should have screamed back fifty years before. Now, that's a gruesome story, I
hate to see a human being suffer, but there's hope in that story, because it means that memories cannot
be suppressed, that all of the memories are going to come back, that there's some kind of an emulsion,
like a film emulsion on the human soul that remembers things, and be that was it is. Also, the False
Memory, I call it the Spindrome Foundation, {group laughter}} and I hope you'll start using that term
because I think it is a spindrome and that it is not a syndrome. Look up the word syndrome and you will
find that what they're talkin' about is not a syndrome it is a spindrome, especially since it was Martin T.
Orne who founded the organization and came up with the board of directors -- very important. This is a
Central Intelligence Agency action. It is an action aimed at the psychological and psychiatric and mental
health community, to discredit you, to keep you in fear and terror, and you're an easy group to terrorize,
I want to tell you. You've got a license that the government has issued, most of you. The therapists and
social workers and others are freer, I think, and I think there's where the cutting edge is going to be,
where you're going to find it. My friend who wishes to remain anonymous, a brilliant psychologist, told
me, reminded me to not feel insecure about talking to you experienced hands in the fields of mental
healing, because, she said, "These people need your input because every advance that has ever occurred
in psychology has come about from somebody outside of the community, from a non-professional." So,
a thing that I'd like to talk about, and I know that Mark Phillips is very well aware of this and Randy
knows all about classical conditioning, and Mark calls it one thing, Randy calls it another, and I call it
Neuro-Linguistics Programming because I learned it from the President's therapist, Tony Anthony
Robbins, {slight laugh} and it was used in military and C.I.A. training and it is absolutely the Rosetta
Stone for unlocking the human unconscious or subconscious or whatever you want to call it, the part
where you're not conscious, and ninety percent of us are not conscious most of the time, you know. And
so, there is a system by which you can wake up and take charge, and you can, though it sounds like a
cliche, a new-age cliche, you can create your own reality, you must create your own reality, and there's
nobody gonna do it but you, and we all must do it together. If you as therapists are finding that you've
got a lot, your phones are ringing all the time and you've got patients all over you and you've got no
time, the meaning of communication is the response you get, and I think maybe instead of teaching these
people how to fish, you are feeding them fish, and now you've gotta start teaching them how to fish for
themselves, and Neuro-Linguistics Programming is a very rapid and immediate, effective technique that
you can adapt... It isn't... I don't... Anthony Robbins doesn't call it Neuro-Linguistics Programming. A
guy named Richard Bandler who had associations with the C.I.A., worked with a guy named John
Grinder who was more a family counsellor, most of you know this, but Bandler bragged to some of his
students one time, "I'll bet I could commit murder and use this to get myself off." Several years later he
was involved in a murder trial and he was, he was declared innocent, by a jury of his peers I'm told. And
it was very interesting, and it's in the book Operation Mind Control, but the question comes up that since
he boasted about it in the beginning, did he get away with exactly what he did? And every attorney
needs to know Neuro-Linguistics Programming and probably a lot of them do. Robbins uses that guy
with the cowboy hat from Wyoming, what's his name, Jerry Spence, as an example and modelled Jerry
Spence. Modelling is... I'm sure all of you know about modelling and I'm sure some of you know N.L.P.,
too, as well, and call it what you will, it's Ericksonian technique, and I first learned some of it from my
encounters with Milton Erickson when I was writing Operation Mind Control. Dr. Erickson was found
in the files and he had, you know, the way it appeared he had used hypnosis to get a Japanese colonel to
confess all of the secrets of state. He said no, he didn't do that, Margaret Meade told him that the Code
Of Yushido said that if you touched these guys on the top of the head they had to commit suicide, "So I
talked to this guy, there was a Marine with a rifle on him, he couldn't get anywhere, he was locked in a
room, he could see the rifleman aiming at him through the windows, if he had done anything he
would've been a dead man, and I said to the guy, "Okay, you're dead now, tell me the secrets", and the
guy spilled the beans. So, that was what I learned from Erickson, that the context, the manipulation of
the context is what we're talking about with all of these things. What we see as ritual abuse, mind
control, or the alien abduction things, these are state-dependent things. These are dependent upon a state
that's evoked and then anchored, and by collapsing the anchors you can loosen the state, jar it loose, and
then deprogram people. We can go through the entire history. In '43 there was LSD. discovered by
Hoffmann, in '47 the army conducted all kinds of hypnosis experiments, in '50 Richard Helms
accompanied--he's the D.C.I. of C.I.A.--he accompanied two doctors to the U.S. Embassy annex in
Japan, where four Japanese were interrogated under these new fledgling MKUltra techniques. That same
year, in 1950 the Director Of Research Addiction at the research centre in Lexington, Kentucky, kept
seven men on LSD for seventy-seven straight days, and then addicts were paid off in heroin if they took
part in the drug experiments. In '51, McGill University's Donald Hebb -- and so on and so on and so on
-- and it hasn't stopped yet. In 19... What is it here? I have the date. Just a year or so ago, 19... It was '94,
I think, yes, October, 1994, the U.S. became a State Party to The Convention Against Torture And Other
Cruel, Inhuman Or Degrading Treatment Or Punishment. The Senate had ratified it four years before it
was signed, and I think that the delay was because they wanted to finish up on some of you--finish up
their tortures. Now it's illegal by international treaty, whether or not we can enforce that remains to be
seen. In order to enforce that we have to abolish, repeal... Just like our mom and dad repealed the
Volstead Act and said, "Now we can drink a beer legally," we have to repeal The National Security Act.
Randy Noblitt:
Alan Scheflin, also, is a great honour to be on a dais with, and to introduce. Many of you probably have
heard about his work. He's the author of, again one of the very early books in mind control, The Mind
Manipulators, which came out in 1978, he's also the author of a more recent book, Trance on Trial, and
he'll be speaking about the legal climate right now that has, that influences all of us regarding the
concerns about false memories, the other legal aspects that seem to be coming around to plague those of
us who are working in this area. So, without any further ado, it is a great honour to introduce to you all
Alan Scheflin.
(applause)
Alan Scheflin:
Thank you. It's a great privilege to be here. As with Walter, I'm nostalgic about times past, when there
were three of us and only three of us. John Marks, Walter, and I were working on books. We had the
good fortune to collaborate together, so we were able to learn each other's stories and research and share
them, and it was a very open spirit but there just were three of us. And the idea of a conference like this
was unthinkable, the idea that we would have to keep doing this, I think, was unthinkable. I don't know
whether Walter shares my naivete, but I thought in 1978, when The New York Times was running
headlines about the C.I.A. mind control programmes, when our books were appearing, when we were
doing media work all over the world, that we would finally get the story out, the vaults would be
cleansed, the victims would learn their identities, the story would become part of history, and the people
who had been injured could seek recompense. Instead, what happened was the great void. As soon as the
story hit the paper it was yesterday's news, and we waited and waited for the Congressional hearings and
we waited for the lists of people who were victims to be notified, and none of that happened, and for a
long period of time consisting of all of the'80's and now almost half of the '90's, we waited to see the
government do justice to the people that it had done experiments on unfairly and unfortunately. But that
didn't happen, and so now we're gathered again to ask the government to release the files, to give us the
information, and our need is great now than it was in 1978, because in 1978 we only had a little inkling
of the story. Now we know that it's bigger and stranger and more difficult to grasp than we ever thought,
we know that there are more victims than we conceived of, and we know that there was more pain
involved than we could ever have imagined. So, on the plus side there are no longer three of us, there are
many more. We must network, we must share, we must learn to investigate and produce good, solid
data, and for the first time we have an enemy, which we did not have in 1977 and '76 and '75 when we
began this research, and so we have to address the issues of the enemy. I'll turn to that in a moment, but I
wanted to make a couple of points first. One is that the climate in those days was so much different than
today. I remember working on the George White story... George White was a renegade C.I.A.and
Bureau Of Narcotics agent who did some mind control experiments almost on a free-lance basis. He
would try the drugs first and then give them to his friends. And so, I heard that the George White Papers
were in a little college about twenty minutes away from where I teach, and I called up the college and
asked if I could come by and look at the documents, and they said, "Sure," and I made an appointment
for the following Tuesday, and about a day and a half later I get a call from the librarian, and God bless
that librarian who said to me, "We've just learned that the Justice Department is issuing a subpoena to
shut down everyone's access to this information. If you can get here right away we'll let you look
through all of it." And so, before... In the presence of an armed guard who could have shot me if I had
tried to take any of those documents or do anything with them, I was able to read through all of George
White's diaries. These days we wouldn't even have access to the diaries. We wouldn't have access to a
good deal of the information that we were able to stumble on quite naively then, because there was not
an organized force against us. In this world, because of the false memory issue, it is important that you
avoid legal liability, and given the nature of the material that we're talking about today, there are some
hints I've got to give you and some tips that you should know to avoid liability, and here they are. In the
first instance, it is almost impossible for therapists to be sued on third party liability theories, if the
therapist does nothing other than work within the therapy session and not go outside it. Now, generally
therapists can be sued by either patients or third parties. Third parties have no standing to sue therapists,
and I argue ought not to have standing to sue therapists. If the false memory movement is successful in
creating third party liability, and there is legislation now being proposed in half the states to do just that,
it will put therapists in the position as follows. If you believe your patients the third parties will sue you,
if you don't believe your patients the patients will sue you. That's a conflict of interest, and it's
impermissible in any profession, yours as well as the legal profession, where we have a series of very
well-worked-out rules to guard against conflict of interest. And so, for third party liability, do not leave
the therapy session, and here's what I mean by do not leave the therapy session. You may be familiar
with the Ramona case, it's been written about a great deal, involving the man in Napa who sued a
therapist successfully, claiming that the therapist had implanted memories of child abuse in his daughter.
He got a judgment for $475,000, and the false memory media machine said, "This is proof that these
things happen and this is our first major court victory." Well, here's what happened in that case. The
therapist's patient went in with an eating disorder complaint and came out with recollections of child
abuse. The jury was given only one question in reference to the negligence of the therapist, and that
question was, did they negligently implant memories? The jury felt that the therapists were negligent,
but not that they had implanted memories, and so the jury did the only it could to reach a verdict it
thought was just, because the judge had given improper instructions to them. The jury said, "Well, we'll
find the therapists negligent, we'll just ignore the fact that the grounds that the verdict says are the
implantation of memories." The therapists acted improperly in their therapy. They stressed the childhood
sexual abuse issue as opposed to the eating disorder issue. They were not familiar with the literature.
The initial therapist brought in a psychiatrist who used sodium amytal interviews improperly to anchor
the memories, and then claimed that the sodium amytal works as a truth serum and therefore the
memories must be true. All of that would still not have created liability, but the therapists went one step
further. They asked the father to come to the hospital and see the daughter as part of the therapy. The
father flew down to the hospital, and the daughter was coming out of the sodium amytal interview,
accused her father, the therapist in a hallway filled with people said to the father, "You'd better confess.
You'd better confess. You know you did it. It'll make everybody better if you confess." By having
stepped out of the therapy session that way they triggered a bizarre case in California known as the
Molian case. This case is so bizarre that the Supreme Court has tried to overrule it twice, but doesn't
understand the case well enough to know how to overrule it. They said, "We would overrule it, but we
don't know what we'd be overruling." The case, the Molian case, involves a simple fact pattern. Wife
goes to a doctor, doctor says, "You have syphilis, go tell your husband and make sure he gets treatment,"
she goes back and tells him and sues him for divorce because if she had syphilis she must've gotten it
from him, the family falls apart, it turns out the doctor's diagnosis was incorrect, and the husband now
sues the doctor. The husband, of course, had never been a patient of the doctor. The Molian case held
that the doctor, by telling the wife to tell her husband, created a direct duty owed to the husband, and
thereby in a sense made the husband a patient, and it's on that, the basis of that case that third party
liability rests in the Ramona case. Now, the Ramona case is touted as a big false memory victory. It cost
the father one-and-a-half million dollars to bring the case to trial to get a verdict of four hundred and
seventy-five dollars back. That may have been a moral victory, it certainly was not an economic victory,
and on the moral victory side an interesting thing happened right after the verdict. The father went on
television and said, "I have been vindicated. Everything I said about those therapists and implanting
memories was true." The jury went on television and said, "No. It's not that way. We didn't believe the
father. We knew he was a salesman." He worked for (inaud) {company's name} He had one of those
unpleasant jobs somebody has to do, worked in a winery and made four hundred thousand dollars a year
doing that. The father claimed that this was a victory for him. The jury said, "We didn't believe him. We
don't know whether the therapists implanted memories or not. We didn't address that issue and we
certainly don't believe him when he said he didn't do the acts.
We just found that the therapists had acted improperly and that the father had suffered as a result." If the
therapists had not gone out of that therapy session there would have been no liability. So, to protect
yourself from third party liability claims, make sure you have identified who the patient is. If you bring a
third person into the therapy session, you can do so but use an informed consent form, and the informed
consent form should say that, "You are coming in to assist in the therapy of the patient, name the patient,
"You are not the patient, and by your appearance here the doctor is undertaking no duty and no
responsibility to you." If the person will not come in under those circumstances, do not bring them in.
That will protect you from third party liability. In terms of liability to patients, the problem is difficult,
because a lot of the stories you're hearing are unbelievable, not unbelievable in the sense that they're
physically impossible, but unbelievable in the sense that people do not want to know that these things
happen, and they are willing to believe that these things do not happen. The false memory people, in
what I call the false logic of false memory, commit an error of science when they lump together Multiple
Personality Disorder, Satanic Cults, Mind Control Programming, Green Programming, etc., etc. It is
important that all of those things be separated out. The DSM-IV as did some of its predecessors, entitles
therapists to diagnose a condition of Multiple Personality Disorder, or now Dissociative Identity
Disorder. You have the right to do that. It is a recognized psychiatric phenomenon, and though the false
memory people may not like it, it empowers therapists to diagnose people as having that condition. And
so, if you do so, the fact that you have used that diagnosis is not sufficient to make you legally liable.
Even if you are wrong in a particular case as to whether a person is a multiple, that in and of itself will
not necessarily make you liable to a patient as long as you have done your work conscientiously and you
really believe that that was an appropriate diagnosis. It is very helpful to network with people to get
second opinions, in other words, to diffuse the responsibility among other professionals, to show that
you have done everything possible to make sure that the judgment that you passed on that patient was as
clinically accurate and correct as it could be. In that context, when we move to Satanic Ritual Abuse, we
do not find anything in the DSM - IV, and we do not find anything on mind control programming either,
and so these are tougher grounds, they are harder to defend, and they are much more difficult to face in
courts of law. How do you handle them? It is a general rule of therapy that you will do better as a
therapist for your patient if you believe the patient or give the appearance of believing the patient.
A good deal of therapy, as all of the studies are showing, has to do with the relationship and not the
theories used by the therapist. It is the relationship of trust and confidence and authenticity that is
paramount in the healing process. And so, if a patient comes in and says, "I'm an egg plant," you should
believe that that person is an egg plant for the purpose of sitting in that room, and you can give advice to
stay out of kitchens, to stay away from knives, you are well within your rights to take whatever
presenting conditions come in and work with it at that level. You get more from accepting what people
tell you than you do by arguing that they must be crazy or they must be wrong -- and I think this is one
of the essential points that's missed by the false memory people because they don't do clinical work, and
their scientific board, for the most part, doesn't do clinical work either -- that no matter how strange the
presenting ideas, you will do better clinically by working with them as if they are real than to try to resist
them and talk your patients out of them. Now, as to whether you believe what they are telling you or not,
that's up to you, and that's not something that should be the basis of a law suit against you, but how you
work with a patient is a fiduciary responsibility. It requires you to act in the patient's best interest, which
means to give the patient that sense of sincere belief even if you don't have it. Now, the unfortunate
thing is that there are many crazy stories that we have heard that we've been able to validate. I'm
thinking of the Jim Thornwell case in particular, where one day some lawyers in Oakland called me and
said, "We've got some crazy guy here talking about mind control and shoot-outs with the French police
and truth serums and hypnosis and whatever. We don't have any idea what he's talking about. Why don't
you come over and see if you can make any sense out of it?" So, I went over there, and I spent a few
hours with him, and he told me this incredible story about being in Orleans, France, and working in a
NATO facility, there were some secret documents that were missing, and suspicion focused on him.
They asked if they could hypnotize him, he said, "Yes," could they use a polygraph, "Yes," could they
use a truth serum, "Yes." None of that showed him to be guilty, but the officers still decided that he must
have been the one to have taken those documents, and so they staged a shoot-out with the French police.
They're driving along, and the French police car pulls up, squeals to a halt, the doors open, the officers
come out, start firing at the car in which Jim Thornwell is riding, and that car squeals away to get out of
the gunfire. Then... That did not phase Thornwell, they could not get him to confess, because he said,
"I'm innocent." They then told his fellow barracks members that he was having sexual relations with
their wives, and so when they released him back to the barracks he wound up getting in a lot of fist
fights. So, they kindly agreed to put him under protective custody for his own good, took him to a mill,
and gave him LSD. Of course, he didn't know what LSD was at the time, almost nobody knew what it
was at the time, and he said that he was sitting down, and the next thing he knew he was off in a corner
baying like an animal, his head exploding into a thousand galaxies, and people saying to him, "Did you
take the documents? Did you take the documents?" The experience was so destructive to him that he
never did get to put his life together, and even after Congress through a special bill which is almost
impossible to get, awarded him about a half a million dollars, he never got to enjoy that because he was
found dead under mysterious circumstances shortly thereafter.
It turned out that everything that Jim Thornwell told me, and I have it all on tape, was accurate. As
bizarre as the story may sound, we wrote to the Army, we got three thousand pages of documents, and
one of them said, "We're not gonna court martial this man 'cause his memory is too good and we don't
want this on the public record." And everything that he had told us was validated, we turned the story
over to Sixty Minutes, they did it, and then CBS did a film based on his life. So, no matter how strange
the story you hear, the patient is at least entitled to the presumption of some truth in it, and you must
work with that some truth.
The false memory argument that I accept is that therapists have been unfamiliar with a literature on
suggestion and social influence, and in fact are implanting the memories rather than recovering them.
I've had enough experience testifying in courts to know that the false memory people have correctly
identified a problem, a problem that could have been solved by now had they not been vicious in the
way in which they sought their own solutions. But the false memory argument that therapists are
implanting memories leads to a development that you need to know about, because I think it is the next
step in therapy, and it's not inconsistent with what you've heard from the prior two speakers. There has
never been a reason in your training why you should have to read police interrogation manuals, the
brainwashing literature, the literature on suggestion, the literature on persuasion and social influence, but
that time has now come. You are in essence being accused by the false memory people of not being
familiar with the basic currency in which your profession traffics, and that is manipulating people.
Interestingly enough, I accept the argument of the false memory people, but I reject their conclusion.
The false memory people argue that therapy is in fact persuasion or manipulation, and that's what's
wrong with it. I argue that's what's right with it, and that what we have to do is to recognize that yes,
there is in the therapy setting, a relationship that is disproportionate in terms of power, in which one
person is stronger and more knowledgeable, and another person is more dependent, and the job in that
relationship is for the person who is more powerful to change by consent the person who is more
dependent. The patient comes to you, and doesn't say, "I like the way I am. Let's just sit around and
talk." The patient comes and says, "Change me," and the false memory people now want to sue you for
doing it. I think they've missed the point. I think yes it is true that you have not been aware of the
suggestion literature, and the social influence literature and the police interrogation literature, and that
you will have to know that literature now because there's a new standard of care for practicing therapy
emerging, and that the ultimate conclusion of what the false memory people are saying is to up the ante
on the kind of training therapists will have to have, but that's simply gonna put on the table the one
question that therapy has been avoiding all of this century, and that is the ethics of manipulating people,
and with the recognition that you are in a social influence relationship when you are with a patient, then
your job is to do it well and to use the techniques that are available to you not to hurt the patient and not
to mind-control the patient, but to allow the patient to change usually outside of the conscious awareness
of the patient, in a way that that change can be therapeutic. And to do that you must know the social
influence literature, and so, for some people on the false memory board, they point a finger at you and
they say, "You see, you're a mini-cult. The relationship between a therapist and a patient is like the
relationship between a cult leader and a follower." And then they say, "Well, actually, you know, you're
like a police officer doing an interrogation," 'cause the same principles apply in both settings -- both
social influence settings -- and so they see you as mini-cults and mini-police interrogation stations, and
accuse you of using techniques of social influence.
I argue that they are right to point out that these are social influence settings, but they cannot point to
any setting which is not social influence-based. Any time two people interact with one another the laws
of social influence apply, and your job is not to get rid of the social influence aspect of doing therapy,
but rather to do it better and make sure you do it in ways which are consistent with your fiduciary
responsibility to the patient. And in the long run, when the false memory people go away, what will
happen is that you will have learned the laws of suggestion, the laws of police interrogation, all the
things that we'll be talking about during the next couple of days, and that eventually it will be part of the
basic training in therapy schools for people to be familiar with this literature. And in that sense we... I
think an odd thing has happened. In the 1970's when we were working on our books, mind control was
this demon, and the government had played with it and we were trying to rest those files from the
government control. Really what we're trying to do is to tame mind control and to find ways for it to
work for everybody's betterment, and if we can accomplish that, then we'll be twice blessed. We would
have solved the problem we started in the '70's and we would have eliminated the unfair condemnation
of the false memory movement. Thank you.
(applause)
Randy Noblitt:
I want to thank the speakers. I also have... Those of you that know me know that I'm gonna have two
cents to add, so... Some of you may be wondering though at this point, "Okay. Mind control. What does
it have to do with cults?" Since that word is associated with the topic for this conference, I wonder how
many people out there think that there are groups, cults, whatever, where they practice let's say harmful,
deviant, black magic, Satanism, not witchcraft in the sense of Wicca but dark arts so to speak. I wonder
how many people think that. Now, some of you might be wondering, "What is the connection between
cults, witchcraft, Satanism," and so on, and the mind control that you're going to be hearing a great deal
about from the finest experts on that subject here. And that's an important point, and I'm hoping that if
we accomplish one thing in this conference it is that we get a clear sense about what is the connection,
because there is a connection. First of all, when you think about what people are calling Satanic Cults,
many of you are aware that the false memory syndrome folks are arguing that this is entirely a fantasy
concept, you know, it has no basis in reality, that people stay up too late and watch late-night T.V. or
they go see a therapist who's fanatical, and I had such a patient. Actually, I've seen about two hundred.
This is a garment that her false memories conjured up in her attic. I'm not sure how her false memories
did it, but here it is. I'm gonna be talking a little bit more about this robe because it has an interesting
story associated with it. It was brought to me by a patient who found it in her residence. She dissociated
and was able to explain what it meant and what it was about, but in her waking normal state she was
shocked and horrified that she foUnd this in her residence. In fact there's a part of the garment that she
didn't even know what is was, and we'll be talking more about that later. It was found in a box with
roses, dried roses, very old, and a newspaper that's twenty years old, that apparently was just used for
packing purposes. So, it's amazing what these false memories can produce out of nothing. But anyway,
we need to start thinking about what is the common thread that goes through all this, and actually there
is a common thread, and it goes back even further historically than Satanism or what people call
Satanism. I say that and I qualify that, because I don't believe that everybody who puts on a black robe is
a Satanist. I think there are times that fraternities do stunts like that, and... In fact, I think our previous
President, Bush, wasn't he a member of a group called the Skull and Bones, and I think they put on
things like this. Of course, {slight laugh} that doesn't seem to disprove {laughter from audience} you all,
but I'm trying, I'm trying my best. Anyway, {laughter from audience} maybe I should have taken a
different {laughter from audience} kind of logic there. But actually, this is an old story, and it's a story
of trauma, it's a story of slavery, it's a story of the complete annihilation of other human beings when
you can get away with it. It's a very, very sad story and it has a long history. We can hear about that
story and read about it in old documents such as The Bible. The Bible talks about children passing
through the fire. It talks about horrible things happening. And... Of course many people may have just
thought, "Well, that's kind of an interesting story," you know, "What does it mean?" What does it mean
that Aztecs and other Meso-Americans would flay people on an altar and consume their heart? What
does that... What is that all about? Well, my argument is, there's a thread that goes all through this, and if
we want to go back in time we can go all the way back to the worship of nature, Shamanism, and so on.
Trauma has always been viewed throughout history as a way of creating altered states of consciousness.
Trauma...There are a variety of ways to create altered states of consciousness. Obviously you can
meditate, you can do hypnosis, you can listen to drums pounding and they'll kind of carry you off and
you'll drift a little bit, but nothing really exciting happens. Nothing very impressive happens. It's my
belief that many, many years ago people learned that if you traumatize a person in a certain way you can
create the god, the god that you worship, and so for that reason many early religions, many very old
religions included trauma in their worship. In fact there's a book out, some of you may have seen it, it's
called God Is a Trauma, and it's particularly about some of the gnostic, traumatic practices that went
back into ancient times. We can carry this back even further than say the ancient times, the ancient
Medieval times, back to, again, Shamanism. Now, it's hard to really understand Shamanism in detail
now, the ancient version, because again, many of these practices are pre-literate. We have no way to
know exactly what people did. We just see these examples, for example, in the Mayan temples, and we
know that these buildings were probably used for these purposes, but it's a little easier to understand if
we look into the Shamanistic practices of modern times. For example, I wonder how many people here
are familiar with the Sun-Gazing dance or the Sun Dance as it's called. Some of you are. Okay. Well,
this is still practiced in North America. Some of you may have seen the movie that came out some, I
guess, twenty years ago, A Man Called Horse, and in the movie... I thought it was totally fictional,
because I didn't think you could ever get anybody who would agree to be lifted up but with hooks stuck
in their pectoral muscles. I didn't figure a big line would establish with people waiting to do that, but...
And I assumed it was totally fictional, but as it turns out I was doing some reading on Shamanism and I
read a modern-day account and I saw photographs of them doing the Sun Dance now--the Sun-Gazing
Dance--and again, the idea's very simple, and I'll be talking about this more when I get into more
programming in particular. To me this is where programming begins, where people perhaps learned
accidentally that the use of trauma and other kinds of ritual acts can produce dissociative states, can
produce dissociated identities.
That is, you can produce the deity, and many villages may have wanted to have their deity there, and it
may have been a great honour for some child to go through these horrible procedures so that the village
could have their deity right there with them. Well, through time these practices passed through some
changes, but not a whole lot. Many of you are probably aware of the Mystery Cults that existed around
in the Mediterranean during the ancient and up until the Medieval times. Many of these involved
traumatic rituals as well, and so now we have people making allegations that some of the modern-day
remnants of these Mystery Cults, that is, the fraternal organizations of modern times, engage in this kind
of behavior as well. There are also many other pre-industrial cults. There's an excellent book by Oki, an
African, Juju High Priest, who writes about the traumatic ordeals that were used in his West African
community on people, and he describes the dissociation that also occurs there, so these things are
happening now. Now, some of you may wonder though, "Okay. This makes sense, it's logical," and
somewhere in there Satanism is a part, too. We hear so much about Satanism. Certainly there must be
some... I mean, where's there's smoke, you know, there's gotta be something to that. So, where's the
connection with the U.S. government and other governments and C.I.A. and Military Intelligence? I
mean, doesn't this really sound awfully far-fetched? Well, we can go back to the Hellfire Clubs of
England and Ireland in the 1700's, and we see a very clear connection there between governments,
powerful members of governments, and bizarre occult or Satanic, whatever you want to call it, dark
kinds of activities. As you all... As many of you probably know, Ben Franklin was a visitor of the Hell
Fire Club in London or outside of London, and additionally the organization that was established in the
outskirts of London was actually created by Sir Francis Dashwood, who shortly thereafter became the
Chancellor Of The Exchequer Of Great Britain. In other words, he would be the equivalent of the
Secretary Of The Treasury. We're talking about top level government. He was a close personal friend to
George III. I mean, very high-level government type individual. And this was an individual who was
carrying on in his residence bizarre practices that included blasphemous religious acts, bizarre sexual
acts, and so on. Well, this is where we see a rather obvious beginning connection between government
and bizarre occult and other kinds of procedures like that. Allister Crowley's another individual where
we see a very clear connection between occultism, possibly Satanism, and governments. Crowley, of
course, was involved with the British Intelligence as many of you know, and from then we have this
marriage made in hell so to speak.
In any case, there is a clear connection between the use of trauma in a ritualized manner and the
development of dissociated individuals, the individuals that are coming forth that we're seeing nowadays
clinically, and hopefully... I'm hoping that in this particular conference we'll be able to show that
connection, how it is, how it works, and hopefully give an opportunity for... We have many survivors
who will be here telling their stories. We also will have some mothers who are protective mothers, who
are doing their best to try to protect children in extremely abusive environments, and they're finding out
that the government who was supposed to protect them is doing just the opposite, and we'll have time to
talk about that as well. This is one of the great tragedies, is that something horrible is going on, but the
people that we all should be able to trust to help us don't seem to be doing their job. And that is why it is
my belief that we must have a citizens' movement to correct this terrible wrong. Now, you may wonder
what good can people do, just individual people? Those of you who may be familiar with the history of
the Mafia may know that the... Oh! Maybe I should ask. Do any of you believe the Mafia exists?
{laughter from audience} There's one person over there. Okay. Did you know that there was a group that
came out that said the Mafia did not exist? And in fact, they persuaded the Governor of New York at
that time to become a member. They affected the production of The Godfather so that they took the
word Mafia out. And in fact, I have to admit that for a long time I didn't know if there was such a thing
as the Mafia, and I didn't use that word out of respect to Italian-Americans. I still do respect Italian-
Americans, but I know that the Mafia does exist, because in 1989 the FBI did finally get a tape, an audio
tape, of a Mafia initiation ceremony. Anyway, the false... I mean, not the false memory syndrome, not
them but this organization trying to protect Italians eventually did succeed in convincing many people
that the Mafia did not exist. In fact, it does exist. Well, the interesting thing though, I'm going about this
in a very circuitous way, many of you know that the Mafia did not first start in New York. That was not
really where it first got started. I think that there's an excellent parallel here between the Mafia and these
various agencies of the government and individuals practicing these deviant acts, because the bottom
line is that they're engaging in criminal behaviour, organized crime, it's a kind of organized crime, and
we know that our government is capable of engaging in organized crime.
We're learning that more and more all the time. But the Mafia, since it did begin in New Orleans, it was
first operative in New Orleans, was very successful, and there were some cases that came up where
people complained and there were efforts to prosecute the Mafiosi, but they were entirely unsuccessful.
Aren't you all amazed, that the government was unable, the local government was unable to effectively
prosecute the Mafiosi in the late 1800's in New Orleans? This comes as a shock to many of you I
understand. But the Mafia were essentially driven out of New Orleans, not entirely obviously, I don't
think you can ever there now, but how was it done? It was done by a citizens' movement, by a grassroots
group of people who decided they were not going to have this in their community any more, so it is my
belief that if we truly want to see this kind of horror stopped, it is something that we as citizens, we as
human beings, will have to make that commitment to, and I'm hoping that this, that our organization in
part and you've heard about other organizations here that are looking toward that same goal, that as we
join together as a whole we will be successful in this endeavour.
Wayne Morris:
We've been listening to a lecture by Dr. Randy Noblitt, Walter Bowart, and Dr. Alan Scheflin, and
you've been listening to The International Connection here on CKLN, 88.1 FM. Stay tuned next week.
We're going to feature the next two weeks a lecture about the history of mind control, what we know and
what we don't, by Dr. Alan Scheflin. You're listening to 88.1.


Valerie Wolf, M.S.W.
New Orleans
Presentation at
Believe the Children Conference
Chicago - April 1997
CKLN FM 88.1
Ryerson Polytechnic University
International Connection

Wayne Morris:
Welcome to the International Connection. This is Week 16 in the radio series on Mind Control, and to
summarize what we have heard so far, we have had heard several shows laying the foundation of the
documented reality of U.S. and Canadian government-sponsored mind control. We have also heard the
accounts of survivors such as Claudia Mullen, Chris Denicola Ebner and Ronald Howard Cohen.
Claudia Mullen is alleging that CIA doctors such as Martin Orne, Sidney Gottlieb and L. Wilson Greene
experimented on her in childhood using drugs, hypnosis, sleep and sensory deprivation, radiation and
physical and sexual and emotional abuse. Claudia is also alleging that Canadian doctor, Ewen Cameron,
from McGill University in Montreal was involved in mind control experiments on children as an
electroshock consultant to the CIA, shocking the child victims after experiments by the CIA to make
them forget. Claudia has also told of being used as a mind control sex slave for the US government,
being set up in situations as a child with military brass, politicians and other officials while the CIA
videotaped them for blackmail and coercion purposes. We have heard the historic testimony at the
Presidential Hearing on Radiation Experiments in 1995. The final report of those hearings included
recommendations to declassify all information related to mind control experimental programs.
Today we are going to hear a presentation by Valerie Wolf, given at the Believe the Children
Conference in Chicago in April, 1997 entitled Assessment and Treatment of Survivors of Sadistic
Abuse. Valerie Wolf is the therapist of Claudia Mullen and Chris Denicola Ebner, both of whom gave
testimony at the Radiation hearings. In this presentation, Valerie talks about her approaches in helping to
heal mind control survivors and the techniques used by the CIA to control their victims. This program,
which continues next week, is of particular interest to the therapy community that are dealing with
survivors of mind control, ritual abuse and trauma. And just to explain a term that Valerie uses at the
beginning of this, she refers to EMDR and that means Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing
which is one therapy technique. And now, Valerie Wolf.
Valerie Wolf:
I am going to talk today about the treatment of mind control. I am going to start with grounding us with
good therapy practice in terms of the model of treatment which is now called stage oriented trauma
treatment which is becoming a standard of practice for trauma therapists. The way I work with mind
control, I think is different than some of the approaches I have been hearing about. When I first heard
about this in June of 1992, and started working with it in September, 1992 I essentially worked in
isolation, totally by myself. I had nobody to talk to except my clients until we testified in Washington in
March of 1995 and then the world opened up. Up until that point, I had worked pretty much alone with
mind control and a lot of SRA clients. I sort of developed it out of what I knew, which is the therapy
model. I have spent the last couple of years trying to figure what it is I was doing because what I am
finding is that my clients are getting better. I have several clients who are through the process, and all of
my other clients are just absolutely phenomenally better. I have also been providing consultation for
some therapists, brief consultation with some therapists in Louisiana and across the country, and when
they apply the kinds of things that I am going to tell you today, they have the same kind of success with
this extremely difficult population. We are going to start with assessment, and I am going to talk about
assessment in terms of mind control and as an ongoing process. Always you are making assessments
about what is going on with your client. And then second stage safety and stabilization - this is really
80% of the treatment. Then trauma metabolism (which is the memory work) and then trauma
resolution. When I get finished with this, I will talk specifically about treatment of mind control and
how I conceptualize it in a way that makes treatment effective.
In assessment you do standard intake procedures. You want to know what is the thing that brought the
client into treatment. Recently I did a consultation for a psychiatrist, and a woman came in to my office
and I was asking her what it was, why she was coming, and the psychiatrist wanted me to use EMDR
because I am trained in doing EMDR. You cannot use EMDR very well with mind control clients. She
said she was here because she had a fear of doctors, and going to doctors' offices. I pursued this a little
bit, and we got into talking about some of the things doctors did. She had some memories of doctors
hurting her, and as I began to enquire more and more, this woman turned out to have mind control. One
of the things you want to look at are current symptoms and functioning, and that is really important in
terms of any kind of sex abuse. You know, most of the clients come in with depression or anxiety or
some kind of behaviour, suicidal symptoms.
One of the primary things I look at when clients come in are the primary relationships because I know
that however a client has related to parents or significant others in their lives, that's how they are going
to relate to me. That's a real clue. Also, if there was a nurturing person somewhere in their background -
because one of the things I am assessing for all the time, and understand that I get really difficult people
referred to me, I have always ended up with clients that no one else wanted to treat - which is I guess
how I kind of stumbled into this area. But I know if I explore previous relationships with other
therapists, I am not so arrogant as to think I am going to do any better. I know the same things are going
to come up with me, and I am prepared for it. The other thing I will look for is an ability to attach, and
this is so important in this client population, and that's beginning to come out in the literature because if
you are going to be involved in a long, prolonged, deep therapy relationship -- and if people are going to
be able to sustain the kinds of work that they are going to have to do, they have to have the ability to
attach. And I have to feel the attachment as well, and that is the thing, the connection that sustains the
therapeutic relationship through a lot of really, really difficult work and I have had clients who are
unable to attach and basically what I have done is referred them on to another therapist, but that is a
very, very important thing and what you find is that a lot of these clients, can, for whatever reason ...
even though they have had horrible horrible abuse throughout their lives, and cannot identify anybody in
their background, there is a drive with children to attach to people and sometimes even the attachment to
the perpetrator -- even though they would get abused -- even the attachment to the perpetrator can serve
as a positive thing. If you can attach, it makes things easier in terms of jobs, making relationships with
people and so I am really emphasizing that because I find that is probably the single best predictor of
good outcome in therapy, is that ability to attach, and forming the therapeutic alliance.
I want to look at addiction issues and I am going to do this real quick. What I am giving you is a
workshop that I did in seven hours two weeks ago. Addiction. Victimization as adults. We know that
when people have been sexually abused and abused as children and if there is severe sadistic ritual abuse
or mind control, that they tend to be re-victimized as adults. You don't often get told about that, so you
need to enquire about it. Ask them if they are crime victims. That is not something that we standardly
ask people, but it is also important, because that's another part of victimization. What some of my clients
say that what has happened to them is crime, and they are crime victims, which is true. Any other trauma
that has happened ... like death, divorce, and how they managed those because that also gives you a clue
as to how the therapy is going to go. Whether they have committed crimes - and again, this is ongoing -
but again, sometimes what I have found is that some of my clients identified as victims have in fact
perpetrated with children that they have babysat in adolescence or they have done shoplifting or they
have done other things, and that is a source of deep shame. You really want to know about those things
at some point in the therapy in order to help them work through that. Their legal history -- and
unfortunately in this day and age -- we have to be aware of lawsuits -- whether they have a current
lawsuit -- or a previous lawsuit. This isn't just lawsuits against therapists, but any kind of lawsuit like for
an accident, or whatever, because the litigation process produces certain kinds of effects and if they ever
decide themselves, and the therapist should never suggest a lawsuit -- but if they should ever decide to
go through one -- sometimes their experience with a previous lawsuit will determine that -- or they may
have access to the information. It is important for you to know and to document if they have been
through a lawsuit before.
If there is suicidal ideation -- self mutilation, self destructive behaviors -- a lot of this is hidden.
People, if they are cutting, will cut on the inside of their thighs or parts of their body that you can't see.
In fact how I started really treating mind control specifically is, I had a client who had carved an upside
down cross in her chest and she had all the earmarks of what I had been told about and I thought, "well I
guess I had better try this" because she was headed for the hospital. One of the ways that you can pick
up on this is if you begin to think if you have a mind control victim or sadistic ritual abuse victim or
survivor ... is that if you get "I have to die, I have to die, I have to die", compulsive behaviors,
compulsive thoughts of suicide, compulsive thoughts of self destruction -- and on the other hand they are
lucidly saying to you I don't understand why I am thinking this, because I really don't want to die. I don't
understand why I am doing these behaviors but it's like something comes over me and I just have to
follow through with it -- when I hear that kind of compulsive/compulsion kind of stuff, then I begin
thinking about maybe that's what we have here. You want to look at their current support system and
this is really important, because if they have a current support system, then that means there is not going
to be so much pressure on me as a therapist to provide that support system. What I want to do is have
another set of either friends, spouse, somebody who is out there, so that everything isn't dependent on
me in therapy. Unfortunately one of the things that happens is that as people get better in therapy, they
realize -- and this is a real loss issue -- that many of their friends were picked out of their dysfunction. In
fact I have a client who is going through this right now, and she has basically dropped all of her friends
that she thought were her really good friends because the kinds of relationships she had were, she was
the helper, always doing stuff, always at her friends' beck and call, and they were extremely narcisstic
and demanding. Now that she is healthier, and she is a mind control victim, now that she is healthier and
she can see this, she is extremely lonely and she's beginning to build new and healthier relationships. So
even the best laid plans in terms of building a support system, don't always endure. You need to be
aware that's going to happen sometime down the road.
Knowledge of memory and trauma. You want to ask what do they know, and if someone is coming in
with memories or at the point at which they start remembering things, or revealing things to you that
they were abused, you want to find out and document what have they heard in the media, what have they
read, what do they know, who have they talked to? And document this. You want to know what their
impressions are about memory and their information. This is really important because if people are
reading books and whatever, doesn't necessarily mean that's causing the memory, it could be triggering
memories, but you always want to begin developing a list of triggers. So not only for protection in terms
of educating them about memory work, and memories, and what goes on in therapy, but also because
you want to begin to identify triggers and there are a lot of triggers in the media. It is really important for
you to begin to take note of that. Then you ask is there anything else significant in your life that you
want me to know? This is a question we sometimes don't ask. I remember a very long time ago, I had a
woman in therapy, she was a survivor, and we got to the end of therapy, the very last session, it was
planned, and all of a sudden in the session, she revealed to me that she had an abortion when she was 19.
I am sitting there thinking, what do I do now? She went into an intense abreaction of the event, and so
what I did was I re-framed it into thank you so much, what a gift that you have shared this with me, and
she informed me that's all I needed to do. I just needed to tell you, I needed to remember, I am fine with
it now. And she really was. But I have now started asking for that information a little bit earlier more for
my comfort, so that I don't get surprised at the end of therapy with something. But there may be things
that they are not telling you. Again, this is an ongoing thing -- all these questions, always thinking about.
Another part of the assessment is -- if you are assessing and have started getting the compulsive
ideation, the message kinds of stuff -- you want to assess also the kinds of things they are telling you as
a therapist. One of my clients whom I had for about two and a half years -- I had no idea there was any
mind control in her back ground -- all of a sudden one day she came in and lambasted from up one side
and down the other. She was really angry with me; no real specified reason -- I was just "in it for the
money ... really didn't care about her ... just like every other bad person in her life" -- on and on and on.
And that's when I first began thinking about her -- that maybe there was some mind control there, and
sure enough there did turn out to be. So what you want to look for are those kinds of flooding messages
or therapist messages in terms of picking up ... Another thing you want to do in assessment of a mind
control survivor is to look at body pain. There are real specific types of body pain -- headaches
specifically around the temples that feel like electric shock; body pains all over the body; pain in the
mouth and teeth; pain in the face and the jaw; pain in the ears. Or like one of my clients was talking
about -- always hearing a radio just below the threshhold of hearing. What that is is where they put a
recorder in the ear -- in the right ear in order to disable (this is the theory) -- in the left ear they would
put pain or a sound. In the left ear to go into the right brain which is known for reasoning, the creative
part of you, they would put messages. They would be for example -- "you have to die". One of my
clients had this whole elaborate set of ritual abuse instructions -- "in the full moon, in the third day of
September, you have to go and get blood, and drink blood and put needles in your arm" -- and sure
enough we found that, cyclically, she was putting pins in her arm at certain times of the year and they
were actual messages. What you find is that kind of -- things in your ear, being choked -- other kinds of
body pain. A lot of these clients have been to doctors, many many doctors with exploratory surgeries
and other kinds of surgeries that find nothing because some of the symptoms mimic other diseases. With
the mind control survivors and the SRA survivors, I find the body pain is more serious than with people
that don't have those kinds of histories. You want to go through -- whether there is pain in the tips of
their fingers sometimes. Or, how are they sleeping at night? Mind control survivors tend to wake up
every two hours or on some schedule of waking up at night, like every hour or every two hours and I
will talk about why that is. Those are the kinds of things that you begin to hear.
When I begin to hear those kinds of things, and some of the symptoms, one of the questions I will ask is,
"if there were a doctor involved in your abuse and his name were a colour, what would that be?"
Typically what you get is red, black and then green. If you get Dr. Green, it's Dr. Green and every
survivor I have talked to will tell you Dr. Green. They may also give you a bunch of other colours and
then at the end they will say, "okay, green" or I had one client, the one who came in and lambasted me
that day, and I started asking those questions -- six months later she came into therapy and said "well, all
right I am ready to talk about it now, it was Dr. Green and I knew that's who you were asking about, but
we weren't ready to deal with it yet." So -- that's one thing that you can ask. You can also begin to ask
more specifically, depending on what they are telling you. And the approach I have used is I have really
listened to my clients -- really listened to them. They direct the treatment. In the assessment phase, when
we are making the contracts about how we are going to work in therapy, my contract with my clients is
that they are responsible for their therapy, that I don't know specifically what happened. They have to
give me information in order for us to work together. My part of the contract is to make sure that they
are safe, to help them design interventions to deal with whatever it is, and to be supportive, and to
remember. I have a very good verbal memory, I remember everything I am told ... so we can make
connections to things that otherwise they wouldn't be able to make. That's my part of it. Their part is to
talk or draw -- because not all people can communicate verbally and if you think of the mind control
where everything is right brain, and with people who are DID -- what you are getting is a lot of right
brain communication. They don't tell you directly what is going on -- they drop a lot of clues. In fact one
of my clients describes it as "the game of Clue" - "Colonel Mustard did it with the knife in the study"
and with her, that is exactly what it is like. I have to help her put it together. You have a lot of right
brain, a lot of hypnotic trance communication, which is different than logical conscious communication.
Trance logic - (a) does not go to (b) does not go to (c) - and you have to understand that something you
are being told does not make sense to you but it may make sense to the person telling you.
My contract is -- basically my clients tell me what to do. I don't direct the therapy except to keep them
safe. If somebody is cutting themself, mutilating -- I jump up and down -- and sometimes I get really
angry and we deal with that, and I will tell you another way of dealing with that that works really well
later. If you get nothing else from this -- and I hear from people all over the country -- and the most
common complaint I hear about therapists all over the country is "my therapist doesn't listen to me, my
therapist is telling me that I am resistant, that I am uncooperative, that I am not following the program"
-- well that tells me that the therapist is directing the treatment and in the case of mind control and SRA,
I firmly believe with all of my clients they know what to do to heal and I have never been disappointed
about that. I listen. And if you get nothing else from this, this is really important. In fact I was talking to
a woman the other day who was looking for a therapist and what she had done is she has always gone in
logically, left brain and picked a therapist who was experienced, and knew stuff, and whatever -- and I
suggested to her (she is DID) -- why don't you let your system pick the next therapist? She left me a
message and said an hour later, this name floated to the top of her mind and she went to a therapist that
she thought was really intuitive, and she realized that she had been picking people with the left brain,
and she needed someone who could intuitively hear who was also able to understand right brain
communication.
I also think it is really important to do a differential diagnosis. These are some of the typical diagnoses
that get attached to our clients -- one that I have found common -- obsessive compulsive disorder. I will
give you an example of that. I had a client, had been seeing her for a while, had been treating her for
OCD -- she came in and said "omigod, I had a nightmare last night that my father sexually abused me".
There was nothing in her history or her behavior to indicate that was the case, and we did some very
careful questions -- I asked her what is that connected to in your past ... what she remembered was that
when she was 13, she picked up an article in the newspaper and it was an article about a child being
sexually abused, and her thought went to "omigod what if my dad does that to me?" and she started
imagining what it would be like, and her anxiety went way up, and she started ritualizing it, but she
never metabolized it. This thought had been ritualized, and every time it came up or she got triggered,
she would start ritualizing this imaginary act. When she realized she had read the article, and what
happened, then the anxiety went down and she realized she had not been sexually abused. I think a really
good differential diagnosis is good.
Borderline Personality Disorder I consider to be a perfect description of survivor behavior. If you look in
the DSM what you will see is everything we talke about is characteristics of sexual abuse. When I treat
it like that it's much easier, I don't get frustrated with all this "borderline" behavior.
Q. from audience ("Can you give us a simple explanation of all of these things?" [slide content]
Valerie Wolf:
Okay. Paranoid is when you think someone is out to get you. Schizoid means that you absolutely do not
react to anything and it could be a dissociative response. Schizotypal is another type of disorder where
you don't react to stuff, you don't have relationships, not a lot of feeling. Antisocial is people who
commit crimes, who have very little feeling or affect and basically are out for their own good.
Borderline, as I said, are people who are shallow, frequently move from relationship to relationship,
have very intense relationships with the therapist but really fear intimacy. Histrionic is someone who is
hysterical and emoting all over the place, but again that can be a dissociative response. Narcissistic --
what I have found is that a lot of survivors can look very narcissistic and that means very self-centered
and everything is for them. I had one client, who, every time she went to see her psychiatrist, her
psychiatrist said to me, "where the hell are you in this therapy?" And what had happened was she would
go in and tell him all these things that were going on in therapy -- now I was working my butt, she was
mind control, but it was like I didn't exist and she came across as extremely narcissistic. When we got to
the bottom of this, what it turned out was -- she had a lot of suicidal programming and a lot of body pain
-- was that, she was so focused on her survival and what she needed to stay alive she had no energy or
room for focusing on others and that happens with our clients. Now that she is through the process, she
is not narcissistic at all. What I also cautiion about is if you are looking at narcissistic behavior, check to
see if maybe there is a deep-rooted survival thing going on there, because if people are surviving, you
better believe they are narcissistic because that's all that exists if it is basic survival. Avoidant is
avoiding people. Dependent is dependent on others, not being able to make decisions. This could be one
of the things you see with mind control -- a lot of my clients are still very dependent on their
perpetrators, still dependent on a lot of other people in their lives, can't imagine making decisions on
their own and a large part of the treatment process is teaching people they have choices. They can make
decisions. But they will fight me on it. Obsessive compulsive is when people do rituals -- like the
handwashing -- but it can be more subtle than that -- counting in your head. I have a mind control
survivor who counts in her head but is not Obsessive Compulsive -- it's a memory. They made her count
backwards or forwards every time they put her in trance. Whenever she switches, she counts forwards or
backwards.
She read something about Obsessive Compulsive Disorders and she came in saying, "I'm obsessive
compulsive". She is not. Passive Aggressive is by inaction, making other people mad, and being
aggressive by not doing anything, sitting like a lump. Some of these kids in the mind control
experiments -- I have two that were dropped at the age of six and seven -- and the reason was because
they became very passive aggressive. They still have some of a lot of the problems because they did a
lot to shut them down, but one way of fighting "them" is to comply but not really, okay? I have one
client that pretended she was stupid - "I don't understand what you what me to do" - and no matter what
they did to her, she never "understood" what they wanted her to do. Ways of fighting, that's passive
aggressive behaviors. But again, this is survival sometimes for mind control survivors.
Eating disorders are very common - anorexia (not eating), bulemia (throwing up) and as part of the mind
control, they actually tried to deliberately induce eating disorders. I have clients on both ends - both
anorexic and overeating. They really messed with that. Post Traumatic Stress Disorder - again intrusive
thoughts, flashbacks, stress where the trauma keeps intruding on the current life. Dissociative Disorders
- there is a whole continuum of dissociative disorders from PTSD where you can just kind of go numb
for an event or something that is happening to what is called NOS or DID Not Otherwise Specified - and
there is a continuum here that I am seeing where people who have ego states or feelings that they split
because they couldn't feel the feelings when they were being abused - but there are also people who are
not quite as fully developed as someone with full blown DID - what you have is the parts inside may
have names but they don't take over the body in the same way. The core birth personality is conscious.
What the parts do is blend - because parts can blend. And that's a lot of what we see in terms of behavior
- parts blending, parts that have jobs. But a lot of the clients that I see with mind control are not full
blown DID; some of them are what we would call "fuzzy DID" because it's not real clear; it's not
discrete states however there are more fragments holding memories and feelings.
I am going to talk to you really quickly about DID. I am just going to tell you, I am not going to go
through all this. I am going to tell you how I understand DID, because if you are working with mind
control or DDNOS, this is what my clients have told me, this is what I have heard. And I have talked
with some of the survivors here, and they tell me that I really understand so ... I am going to pass this on.
First of all you have the core birth personality - this is generally the part that is the age of the body. It
is the part, that if all the parts were to integrate that's who they would integrate with. The Core Birth
Personality is not that baby inside who did not develop. It is actually the one that is the age of the body.
It is really important that you know who the core birth personality is in a DID system because that's who
you have to work through - that's who has to get the memories back. That's who has to construct a safe
place and do the work because if the core birth personality doesn't do it, it won't stick and why is that?
The reason is that all of the alters, or the parts, or the kids in this system were created by the core birth
personality -- kids do not, or parts do not, create parts. The core birth personality creates every single
part and they are created to have a job. Their primary job is to protect the core birth personality to allow
that core birth personality to grow and develop and be able to function while they take the pain, or the
trauma, or the feelings, or whatever. The core birth personality is really the central part of the system.
If you have the concept that every part has a job, and they do -- that means there are no perpetrator
alters, and this is so important. What happens is, even if an alter comes out and cuts, they think they are
doing their job and protecting their core birth personality, no matter what the behavior. The answer to
them is "you did a wonderful job, too good a job, but a wonderful job. Now you finished that job, you
have done it so well, you don't have to do it any more, now you can have another job." And they will
take new jobs. It's a re-frame, but it works. And this you can get through. Sometimes I get upset because
I try to get through to the system "no hurting the body". We do talk a lot about that, but if you conceive
of it as a job, then you can praise them and give them A+'s and they can graduate to the next level and
this really works. Also, it doesn't matter what behaviors they are doing. This is in any DID system. In
mind control, the researchers knew about these parts and gave them jobs. The jobs they were given were
calling them, keeping in contact for later. They also had jobs to carry out -- whatever their job was -- if it
was a sexual job, or a courier, or an assassin -- but they were taught and given specific jobs. Again, it is
the same response. "You have done a good job." And a lot of times they are really willing -- a lot of
times they are really relieved.
Sometimes you have parts that mimic perpetrators. There are a lot of Dr. Green parts. They are so
relieved. How do you get them convinced that they are not the real perpetrator? All I do is say, "think
back - and what position are you in? Are you being hurt or are you hurting?" And they think about it,
and all of a sudden get crying, and say "I'm being hurt." You can't be the perpetrator. It's a really quick
way of turning somebody and then they take another name and go inside or go to the safe place and
whatever. These are the concepts I work with that have been very useful for me, and they also work with
regular DID clients. I think this is real important for you to understand.
Safety and Containment/Stabilization. This is the majority of the treatment. Again, working on
establishing the therapeutic relationship -- with DID you have to continuously establish a therapeutic
relationship as you get different parts of the system.
Developing an Internal Safe Place. This is really important, and this is a central piece of containment
for mind control, and also DID and severely abused people. Basically, we will start with talking about a
safe place. What do you do when someone says there is no safe place? My answer to that is, aw c'mon ...
there is a secret place inside that nobody knows about and nobody can get to, that's the place I'm talking
about. And you get this little grin, and yeah, you're right. If the word "safe" isn't good, because
sometimes they are told there is no safe place ... then the word "secret" place can be used. There are
certain elements that need to be in this safe place. It needs to be inaccessible by anybody, including me.
I give suggestions for elements -- find out what is there, find out what makes it safe, where it is
(mountains, clouds, etc). If they don't have one I will ask them where they want. But they need to clear
where - even if they have an already established safe place, because a lot of people do - you have to
clear a football size field around and I ask them to place walls of water light around the outside - water
light that nobody can get through and makes it invisible. The reason why you want the football size field
is so you can see if anybody is coming. Then you want to construct a building, a shelter of some kind in
the centre, and in the shelter there needs to be a swimming pool or a healing pool. For some people they
want it partly inside the house, and partly outside. This is incredibly important for mind control. Did you
know that water dissolves the crap off their bodies? And I said that to one of my clients and she said,
"oh, that's why they didn't want us to cry" and so I use that now. Water will wash off and dissolve --
because it did -- if there are electrodes and there is gunk put on you what did they wash it off with?
Water. Water washes the stuff off. There is an association there.
The other thing that is useful for some people is if you have microwaves ... to have some of these
mechanical things, the robots. Actually what they did is they took kids and packed them inside these big
things that looked like robots and put them inside and did all kinds of things to make the core create
parts (they don't create parts, the core does) and then what you do is, if you encounter one of these
contrivances, you can disable it with microwaves and there is a switch on it somewhere, disable the
switch, take off its head, get all the kids out of there. They will show up in the safe place sometimes.
You also want to have a nursery for the very little ones with cribs. You want to have food, you want to
have toys, and you want to have an infirmary because there are going to be kids that you are going to be
uncovering that are absolutely wrecked that need to be healed. They need to be helped. You have helper
alters inside, and I am sorry, I am going to use the word "alters" - I know some people don't like that.
But they have helper alters inside that help and take care of the kids as they come up. No doctors and
nurses, unless they want them. One of my clients has Beverley Crusher and her Tricord as an interject
who comes and runs the tricorder over everybody and heals everybody -- so they can also produce
interjects that they know are not -- but it's part of the imagery. They are very very good at imaging.
Grounding techniques basically are based on changing the senses. One of the most effective ones is
changing the sense of smell, carrying something with a little bit of perfume that is soothing, or the sense
of touch. All my life I have had this sense in my fingers that I think about -- as silky and bumpy. I
always think about it when I am in periods of stress. I feel it in my fingers as a body memory. And when
my son was born twenty years ago, and I got this baby blanket, it's a chenille baby blanket and I didn't
remember what that was. But to get them connected to some kind of touch that is soothing. If they start
to go into flashback, to change the senses. It is really important. A client was in the doctor's office and
they were running around trying to get her ice, because if you hold ice, it hurts. It's kind of like cutting
but it doesn't do any damage -- it is a change of senses. That's why people cut. You can focus on the pain
and it gets you away from the emotional pain. Ice will do that and it can be an intermediate step to get
people away from self mutilating and self cutting. You want to develop self soothing techniques - bubble
baths, favourite blankets, stuffed animals. A lot of these people have stuffed animals and they really feel
ashamed about it. I have a chair of stuffed animals, and when I go out of town they become transitional
objects some times. People take them home, and it's really good. And people bring me, as parts
integrate, parts donate stuffed animals to me as they integrate and they know they are going to have a
good home.
Purpose and Function of Self Destructive Thoughts/Behaviors. There is a purpose to that, as I have
said. There are lots of reasons why people do that and you need to find out why. Always why? What is
the purpose of this behavior? What is the function? With mind control, if it is messages, and you know it
is messages, you know they are being flooded and it is based on post-hypnotic suggestions or
conditioned responses - what I will do with that kind of thing is I want to cut/you don't have to cut, and I
just repeat it. I have to die/you don't have to die/you don't have to die. It make come up during memory
work, or it may come up consciously. Another part of this is that if they are lambasting you into this
thicket of therapist programming or alienation from others programming (people are bad/this is bad/
that's wrong) I will sit there and say, "and what else, and what else, and what else?" And it drives people
nuts sometimes; however, it gets you through quickly. It isn't worth interpreting, it isn't worth spending
time on. They will let you know. You say, "and what else?" And they will say, "well, you know little
kids - a lot of times they just want to tell you something, they don't want you to solve it, or discuss it at
length." I have had one child and he would just come in, "Mommy! Mommy!" crying, whatever. He
would tell me, then he would be fine, then he would go out. It's the same thing. The "and what else?" is a
really helpful way of getting through a lot of messages quickly.
Decreasing and Stopping Self Destructive Thoughts/Behaviors. I have used contracting with this
sometimes in terms of it's the core birth personality's responsibility because one of the things I know is
that if the core birth personality absolutely does not want something to happen, it will not happen. There
is an implicit permission given - and I have talked to a lot of systems about this, and a lot of kids. For
example, if someone cancels an appointment and the kids bring her to therapy, it's because she wants to
be brought. I have a couple of clients who do that. and they always come. Once or twice they have
absolutely said "I can't do that, she really doesn't want to come." They have given me the clue. They do
what subconsciously she wants. The core birth personality really does determine, so I contract with the
core birth personality and with as many people as possible, but the systems are so complex it is really
hard to that, but it really is the core birth personality's responsibility, and that is another concept that is
really hard. She is responsible for her own safety, and her own behavior, whether she dies or not. I
learned this through hard experience. And I find by taking that stance, yes they will fight you on it, but
they know it's right. I can't keep people alive, it would kill me, with all the phone calls, and the hours,
and the panic and all the rest of it. I can't, and it's not within my power. That is another concept, of
making them responsible, or taking the real responsibility. If they know they are responsible, that's part
of beginning to make choices. When you think of mind control, everything was controlled including
their lives and the fact whether they stayed alive or they died. By saying "you are in charge of this now"
it is a really liberating kind of thing.
I also form a lot of hypotheses. I am always asking questions. Again, I have to get the information from
the person sitting in front of me. I don't know. I ask a ton of questions. What is that related to? What is
going on? What is the purpose of this? What is the function of this? I hear a set of symptoms - okay
what is going on? Who is blending? If the core birth personality comes in and is in all this body pain, I
know someone in the system is blending. Who is blending? What you want to teach is that they can step
back. This is a containment strategy. They need to learn to step back. They don't have to blend with the
core birth personality.
For some people what you can do is have the core birth personality go into the safe place surrounded by
light, where nobody can blend with her, not everybody can do that - but that is one way of containing
that. Let me just say a little bit about the switching place ... did you know there is a switching place in
the head? Every DID NOS person has a place where they switch and the switching place is where the
core birth personality is out in the body and an alter stands beside her or him and starts to blend - that's
the switching place - it's an actual place. The researchers messed with this big time. You will find bugs
in there. Little bugs running around on the floor. We know they were meant to be listening devices. You
need to get the bug stomper or someone to get rid of those. Little kids heard the word "bugs" and
thought they were real bugs. How you find the switching place is - you have the core birth personality
come out into the body and an alter stand either behind or beside her and start to blend. Where the
blending takes place is the switching place. In the switching place are cameras, bugs, torture devices, all
kinds of stuff. They can clean it out. Bugs, cobwebs, satan, skeletons, whatever. They need to clean that
out thoroughly and keep it clean. In the switching place, there are also lots of holes in the floor. Where
the holes go to is where the alters stay. The alters stay in a place, and I guess we are calling it a matrix,
and basically they started at the age of three with a very simple matrix and the simplest one is a tic tac
toe 3-D block and in each of those spaces resides an alter or an alter system. What they would do is each
alter was given a number and a name or a letter, and given a designated place where they had to stay.
They couldn't talk to each other, they couldn't communicate with anybody, and they had to stay in their
rooms. It started like that. There are more complicated ones and I will talk about those. You have this 3
dimensional thing and that's where alters come from. They started with a simple one at about age 3 and
by about the age of 12 or 14, it was much more complex. We find kabbalas, which is the kabbalistic tree,
the triangle with the lines with the circles. That was an early one, but it is too complicated. There are
people who have it but there are alters within the lines and the circles, that's where they live or where
they stay. There are decahedrons, giant crystals on each facet. One of my clients that is just a scrambled
mess like spaghetti and they suggested to her that it was like spaghetti. You find upside down triangles,
you find all kinds of shapes. How they put that in ... they would project an image on a screen, like this,
and then they would put electrodes on the face where they wanted them to think it was and move the
screen closer and closer and closer while increasing the pain until it disappeared into the head, and that's
how they convinced the kids that they had this place inside of them. Now they changed it. Kids changed
this. Basically they were told "do not come out of your room, ever". What would happen is these alters
or the parts would be tortured, hurt, raped, whatever and then in the middle of that, would go inside to
their place in the matrix. So that when they come out, guess what? They come out in the middle of a re-
live. Now how do they that? You know those spirals that we used to see on SRA drawings? Those are
elevators. They belong in the matrix. They are elevators and they go directly into the switching place.
What happens is, somebody is triggered out inside, or they could call them out because they knew their
number and they would get on the elevator, spiral up into the switching place. While they are in the
switching place, they are right out into the body. Any of those connections - there will be one, two or
three -- move away from the switching place into the safe place -- they can move this around. It's a
tunnel basically. So you can move it. Basically you put a waterfall over it so they come out into water so
it kind of cleans them up and you have a kind of warning system so the helpers -- one of my clients put a
computer there with a greeting "greetings ... welcome to so-and-so's system" and it gave time then for
the helpers to get there and then what they would do as the alters came out into the safe place -- is take
off all the electrodes, whatever was on them, clean them off, get them into the pool, then get them into
the safe place. This is a really good containment strategy. Then you don't have people coming up in your
face and out into the body doing destructive stuff or uncontrolled flashbacks.
Another part of this is that you will find black holes that come up into the switching place, and again if a
black hole appears -- and what a black hole is that either an IV with a slow drip of medication that
slowly made them unconscious and they would fade away into nothingness -- and sometimes you get
that effect where the core disappears, alters disappear -- it's a memory of that. What you do with black
holes is, you fill them in from the bottom. Just fill them in with dirt, cement, whatever. Make sure you
get all the alters out - you can't fill it in if there are any alters there - just pull them out. It's happened to
me in my office where someone has literally fallen on the floor, being pulled into a black hole, and I just
pick them up and pull them out -- pulling you out, pulling you out, opening up everything that needs to
be opened, pulling you out, pulling you out, (you can do this over the phone too) until they are out. Or if
you are talking to someone on the phone, and they start to fade, they are likely going into a black hole.
You fill it up, and pull them out. That's really helpful.
That's a really important containment kind of - this is something that is real different than what we have
talked about. That helps with the containment and pacing of flashbacks and memories. Another way I do
that is, basically you can, and I do this initially with them in my office -- I give them their twice a day --
in the morning when people are in their showers, washing -- they are to do an inventory. Looking for
kids that have come up during the night. Cleaning themselves off. Taking off any electrodes, things out
of their ears, and I will literally go up to someone in my office. They will be talking about the radio
playing. Let's get that out of there! And I will just put my hands like this, and pull. The reason that
works is because at some point, whatever was in their ears [eyes?] got taken out. It fast forwards the
memory to the end. Or if the electrodes are on them, and you take them off, at some point they were
taken off. Needles - limbs dislocated. I have literally taken someone's arm and just given a little tug to
put it back in, and this imagery really works. So they are to do that in the morning ... do a complete body
inventory, cleaning out anything in their nose, in their mouth, in their ears, around their necks
(sometimes there is stuff choking), anything on their bodies, inside their vaginas, or anything around that
area, off their legs, off their fingers and their toes. Because what they would do is put electrodes on the
fingers and toes, play the messages at night and shock them awake in the sleep deprivation and keep
them awake for days while planting these suggestions in their minds. So you take all that stuff off ... I
have them do it. I have this one client who is a very creat ive artist and they wanted to convince her that
she couldn't draw. She is now beginning to be able to draw, and she is fifty-three years old and has been
very frustrated because she couldn't. She had this thing where her fingers would curl and it was a
memory. What we did was ... she learned how to get out of the suit they put her in that would then jerk
her fingers down to convince her that she couldn't draw, or that she wasn't creative. Stuff like that.
They will visualize it. Then the helper alters who are coming out of the matrix get all cleaned off, and
then they go into the safe place. Sometimes they will go there when they are finished ... and they may, in
the process, give their information to the core birth personality. A lot of times what we will do is wait til
later because we need to get stuff contained, or we need to get people functional. The do the same thing
at night, they do the same thing if they have any kind of body pain or body symptom during the day -
what is it? what is going on? Very non-leading. I am not telling them anything. What is going on? And
then they clean off whatever it is and that has become a really good way of doing this.
The other thing is ... you need to listen to the client language -- how they describe stuff. Not everybody
can talk to you verbally. Some times they have to lie -- it is part of their job. I learned a game with one
of my clients. It is called The Game of Opposites for people who have to lie to you. Tell me exactly
what you want me to know, and put a Not in the sentence. And so it's the tone of voice - "I ~don't~ want
you to know this information" - they are lying to me. They want me to know. Or "it's ~not~ dangerous at
all" -- go to that place. Sometimes you can say opposites -- it's not dangerous to go that place or it's too
dangerous to go that place -- but it's a way of communicating. I have one client who went through a
period where she had to be silent. Two hours she had to come into therapy and not say a word. That was
somebody's job. What this part did was brought in (I have a tape recorder) ... spent I don't know how
long putting together music on tape to tell me what I needed to know. It was okay. No one said they
couldn't play music. It was incredibly creative. I have had people write to me, journal, draw pictures ...
all of those are ways of communicating. None of those are accidental. They are always trying to tell you
something, and if you don't get it, or you are being stupid, that's okay, they will keep telling you until
you get it. Sometimes therapists can be awfully stupid about this stuff ... (laughter) ... I say I know I am
being stupid about this and I need a little before I 'get it' ... eventually of course they don't give you any
information ... It is really important to catch their language and how they talk about stuff and to just keep
asking.
Managing Transference and Counter Transference: Transference does show up. I mean if they had a
bad relationship with their mother, that's going to show up with you. If they have a Monster Mom and
they want to scream at Monster Mom, guess who gets screamed at? It just goes with the territory. Most
of the time I am really patient with it -- sometimes people will hit a button and I will get angry but that's
okay because I am modelling appropriate anger. People are amazed I don't immediately fly into a rage
and beat them up, but I don't. Very patient. Counter Transference is difficult. Now I am a lot more
familiar ... but you can imagine in the beginning when I had no one to talk to ... how difficult this was
with all this behavior, all this stuff going on ... I have just learned to hold my breath and to take note of
my natural reaction which sometimes was really angry and really upset and thinking "oh what are we
doing here? why am I doing this?" on and on and on. Because that's how I am suppo sed to feel and I
know that's how I am supposed to feel. And then I would be very patient ... very, very patient because
we are going through something really important and a lot of it is somebody has a job to "distance" me
or to distance the people in their lives. You really have to manage -- because every single button -- you
have to know your transference and counter transference issues. I have a peer support group that has
been meeting since about 1982. We know each other really well and we really get into counter
transference stuff. You need that. I get confronted all the time. (re: question - counter transference is the
feeling the therapist has for the client. You really need that. I really care, and sometimes I care too much
and I get confronted about that. What I mean by caring too much -- to the point where I am beginning to
get vicarious post traumatic stress, when I am starting to get nightmares, starting to cry, when I am
starting to really be affected by the material I a m hearing ... I used my peer group to confront me and
they really do a good job of helping me to get grounded. We meet twice a month now. Some of them are
starting to do this kind of work too, so we provide a really good support for each other.
Time. Basically I plan sessions with my clients. I don't have unplanned -- it almost never happens now
that I know what I am working with here. I plan sessions but they are longer sessions, a minimum of an
hour and a half. This is with most of my clients whether they are DID or mind control or not, it takes
usually a half hour to get settled down and then we get an hour of work. If we are working on something
really intensive, it can take a lot more time -- four hours sometimes, or more. We plan ahead of time
what we are going to do and then we stick to the time. Occasionally I have an unstructured time, so I
have a Tuesday night where people can rotate in and out of -- if you find that you start on a series of
memories and it keeps looping back to the beginning -- what you have is the core birth personality isn't
getting the memory. You have an alter doing the memory work. You need to be sure the core birth
personality is present, but it means sometimes that you really have to pace the work c arefully, and allow
breaks. Don't drive people into the ground. This is really difficult work. But even at this stage, we plan
pretty much a lot of times what our sessions are going to be. That's really important. Again, team
work ... a concept that is really hard for some of these clients to understand. They get really angry about
this teamwork. I have a client right now who left the office on Tuesday basically saying "you're
supposed to be asking the questions ... this isn't therapy". She's getting better, but she wants me to take
responsibility but I won't. Unfortunately her previous therapist did. Two years of asking questions and
dragging stuff out. I am not going to do that because that's not good therapy.
Doing Reality Checks. Reality is really distorted. People can contact me through my machine. I don't
wear a beeper. I worked at a psychiatric hospital for two and a half years I don't want to wear a beeper ...
I work really hard ... and I am not going to be at anybody's beck and call for 24 hours a day, seven days
a week again. It works fine. People can leave as many messages as they want on my machine, I will get
back to them. If it is a real emergency, they have my home phone. In the last five years that I have been
in private practice, I have been called at home maybe four or five times ... which, with this population, is
phenomenal. I have a lot of DID and trauma clients. They really respect that boundary. And I am real
clear -- only in the direst of emergencies. They can leave as many messages as they want on my
machine and they do, and that's great, and I listen to every single one of them and take them seriously. I
always listen to my tape before I go to bed at night. My agreement is i f I can do it, I will call them back
at least by the next day if they need to talk to me. But a lot of times it's just little kids telling me stuff ...
they just want to say this happened, or this information or whatever, and I don't have to call back. There
are a lot of distorted perceptions, and this is good therapy stuff. Keep confronting the perceptions and
working with the perceptions.
A lot of the treatment is the management of shame, anger and sadness, especially in the mind control --
that's what they hit at -- trying to make people feel responsible, trying to make them feel ashamed ("it's
your fault"). One of my clients has just gone through a series where if she looks one way, she sees films
of the Holocaust victims -- emaciated, being tortured, horrible pictures on this side; if she looks the other
way, there are really erotic pictures of people having sex while they are sexually stimulating her. What a
choice ... Because she chooses to not look at the Holocaust, she is told you are choosing to do this, see,
it's turning you on, it's your fault. At the same time, reading the bible to her, she was brought up in a
very strict Catholic family -- priests and nuns and all this kind of stuff -- and then reinforcing the shame.
Because most survivors of any kind of abuse feel guilty and ashamed and it is their fault. They really hit
at this. So a lot of this is management of anger and shame and sadness. Anger is tough, because they got
severely punished for being angry. One of my clients who was in a facility in Colorado -- actually two of
my clients were in this facility -- it's interesting how the corroboration of the details comes -- she really
went out of the box with hysteria when they first started with her and they ducked her in water tanks to
calm her down, and half drown her, and then as she got more calmed down, she got really angry at what
they were doing to her. They had a decompression chamber some place outside of Denver -- I have two
clients that talk about this decompression chamber. It's a medical facility, but it is attached to an Air
Force base. This a place where they were brought to as children, with the mind control stuff. What they
would do is put them in there, and increase the pressue ... do you know how much that hurts? Or
decrease the pressure, pump air out, so they couldn't breathe and have a difficult time breathing, and one
of my clients said it was like her lungs were stuck together. That's what they told her, her lungs were
stuck together.The issue of being at fault was a big one.
Attachment to the Perpetrator. There was so much done to attach them, "the doctors are your friends,
we are the ones who know you, we are your family, we love you. One of the criteria was to pick kids
from abusive families, or neglectful families ... they were already abused anyway and I think parents
were instructed to do abuse. "We are the ones who love you, we are your family" ... a lot of the SRA
kind of stuff.
Safety. A lot of the safety has to do with where you see the control." You" in control of your own self,
or "you" being controlled externally. This is the issue, too, of responsibility for safety, and you really
have to deal with this one because these kids have been taught that there is only external control, they
have no internal control. That's something you really have to work with in terms of responsibility for
their own safety -- that other people don't control them. In talking about this, the other thing that you
want to do, and the whole concept of the treatment of this -- as we move into -- we are going to talk
about doing memories and what this all about real briefly -- the concept is -- we talked about how each
of the alters or alter systems is in the matrix. So how you start this (and I was told wrong basically - all it
did was succeed in flooding my clients and exhausting me for three months until I just started setting
limits all over the place -- normal therapeutic limits and boundaries apply. I had to learn that. Your task
is to get every single one of those alters out of the matrix and into the safe place. How do you do that?
One of the secrets in the system is that as fast as people were being put in the room, behind it they were
building tunnels, caves and mazes to connect everything. That's the working place because what you are
doing then is working through the maze, going through however, and getting all those kids out of the
matrix and into the safe place. Now, into the safe place can mean they automatically integrate once they
have done their work, or it can mean they can stay on to be helper alters, or whatever job they take after
that is completed. That's the concept. One of the things I learned to say to people, and it seemed to make
sense is "before we start this, turn upside down, cut off the top, and bury it as deep as you can". The
reason is when they finished the programming, and they put a cap on it, and it was something so horrible
that no one would ever want to remember it. You don't want to start with that. Whatever shape it is -- if
it's an upside down triangle and I will use that one -- if it's an upside down triangle and you start at the
broad end, tap in there, which is what I did initially ... what have you got? All those memories just start
flooding in layers ... and it is in layers ... they layered it by degree of trauma and by degree of pain in the
mind. What happens is, you turn it upside down so you have a regular triangle, cut off the top because
there is serious trauma poison is what one of my clients said, bury it as deep as you can because that is
the last thing you are going to do. And then you start where it makes sense. This isn't leading. I mean, if
someone didn't have mind control, and you said that to them, they are going to look at you and say,
'what the hell are you talking about?' You would be amazed ... people go, "oh, okay!" and then they
think about it, and then they do it. Then there's more confirmation.
Things my clients have said to me have been "oh, you mean start with the little big memories" "oh, you
mean start when I was old enough to understand what was going on" "oh you mean start at the point
where I was beginning to understand" but they will determine, they will know where to start. And again,
you are working through the maze, getting all the kids out and doing whatever it is you have to do, and
they know -- they are the guides and getting them into the safe place.
The other thing you need to know about DID too -- you have an internal system that is only internal, but
does not interact with the outside world, generally. They can, but they don't. You have bridge parts,
which are few, who can pull out inside parts. You have outside parts that just deal with the outside -- the
CEO, parts that go to school, but they may carry trauma but they are not as traumatized as the ones
inside. Your bridge parts are the ones that are the most helpful, because they know who to get and they
are the guides through the matrix. It's a really important concept ... you don't even have to talk about it -
it's automatic - but you need to have the conceptualization because it is real useful to know who the
bridge parts are and they will become apparent. They are also the ones that -- there is an historian who
knows everything. Some parts watched everything. So no matter what happens, my answer is, "yeah I
know ... somebody knows ... even though they were told not to watch and not to communicate inside".
I am going to talk really specifically about memories. Unless I have somebody who has had a lot of
therapy, who has been through those stages of therapy and has it down, and is pretty functional and can
contain, I don't move into doing memory work. I have several guidelines in terms of how I do memories.
#1 We do not have to do every memory. #2 We need to plan sessions. If kids are coming out of the
matrix, we are working through the maze, they give their memory back to the core birth personality or
whatever it is that they carry. Not everyone has to do it. Some just have to be cleaned off. When we do
memories we are looking for information. What is the information we are looking for? We are looking
for information on what they did. It is not sufficient to just cathart or abreact a memory. There is always
something we are looking for. Post hypnotic suggestions. We are looking for this kind of information ...
when survivors remember what the people actually did, they undo the programming. One of the most
profound things ... and I am realizing now how profound ... I have struggled for almost four and a half
years to figure this out, because I just did it so naturally and my clients have accepted it so well ...
programs are memories. Those of you who are working with this -- think about that. The implications of
that statement. Programs are memories. Therefore, what I have found is that regardless of what you are
dealing with, it has a concrete physical basis then ... something had to be done to this child to make them
behave, feel, sense on their bodies (body pain) and know what they know (I am going through the
BASK model behavior, affect, sensation, knowledge). So everything is memory. If you are working with
"programs" -- if you are working at the level of decoding and getting codes and doing all that -- and once
the person tells you they have to -- and that it's necessary -- I am not ruling that out -- but generally I
have found that's not necessary. We are working at the level at which the researchers wanted us to work.
We are also, I think, dehumanizing our clients. What I am proposing is grounding this back into our
treatment model of memory work, and really good solid memory work. I do not do memories unless I
have some idea of what the memory is going to be. I don't go fishing. It has to be somewhere in
conscious memory. We plan it. We know generally what alters -- I have clients who write it down. I
have one client who just comes in and does what she has to do. She gets on the couch. The alter gives
the core birth personality the information about what happened. If the experience now has a concrete
physical basis then -- if, for example, you have behavior modification techniques that taught alters how
to do certain things -- you go back and look at what actually was done -- then you don't have to do it
anymore. If you have classical conditioning and you see how behaviors were linked through aversion or
repetition or whatever -- you don't have to do it anymore. And that's what we are looking for: what did
they actually do?
I will give you an example. At this conference last year, I was talking to a survivor and she said to me,
"what happens in the brain when you have blue out of this side, and red out of this side?" She had been
walking around for months. She read out of a blue filter on this side, a red filter on the other side and I
automatically just said to her, "What do you see?" And she had done all this research on brain chemistry
and neurology, really seriously searching through looking for physical condition, and I said, "what do
you see?" A little voice comes up and says "oh we are looking into a -- you know like the thing in the
eye doctor's office? but it's a blue lens on this side, and a red lens on this side, and that's what we were
looking into." And I said, "well what would happen if you looked away?" "I never thought of that ..."
She looked away, "oh, it's gone". I said, "well you don't have to look at it anymore" and she said, "oh
okay." Core birth personality came back and she had been dysfunctional for three months and unable to
read, work, drive ... because of this. I have another client who kept choking. She had been in therapy
with a previous therapist who really did a mess. Basically what she did was she was choking, and the
therapist did an interpretative for her, without asking, that it was a penis in her mouth and it was all sex
etc etc. I don't assume anything. I said, "well what is that associated with, or what does that remind you
of?" and she thought a minute, and she said, "oh goddamit. they put a sock in my mouth" ... it was a
sock, and they were trying to choke her to make her anorexic. There were other incidents of other things,
but that's what it was. So you cannot assume that you know what they are telling you about. So ask.
They used a lot of hypnosis. A lot of the behavior that you see today is the result of post hypnotic
suggestion. Well, I went and got training in hypnosis -- I have had a lot of training over the last five
years to help me deal with this. But I don't use hypnosis to look for memories.
I don't use hypnosis to look for memories. I don't put people in trance. These clients are very good at
doing it themselves. They are very highly susceptible and if they are ready, to have the conscious
memory or at least something about it, they are the ones who decide if they go into trance or not. I have
clients that don't have to abreact. I have clients where the alters just tell them or they just close their eyes
or get the information and an alter goes to a safe place. I have other clients who have to do a full-blown
abreactions. It has something to do with individual personality and the way that people learn. Some
people need to totally experience things. Other people need to visualize, other people need to hear it.
You need to know hypnosis in terms of managing trance and knowing what you are looking at. The
other thing is you need to counter the post-hypnotic suggestion. A lot of times, people go into memory,
they will go "you have to die", and I will say "you don't have to die". You don't have to die, you don't
have to cut ... I have one client who says, "Destruct! Destruct!" and starts choking herself and what I say
is, "Do not destruct, do not destruct" and after a while she says, "Do not destruct". You find a lot of
those nasty post-hypnotic suggestions. Another client has a whole litany of things she is supposed to do
to commit suicide in every memory -- it's called a Meta-Level Program. We undo those each time and
keep repeating "you don't have to ____, you don't have to ____" or "don't do ____" and just keep
repeating it. You undo post-hypnotic suggestions which can be very enduring.
They also used drugs. One of the ways I deal with drugs is to say "you don't have any drugs in your
system right now, you can clear your head" because the memories will be kind of fuzzy, and that is
okay, you just need to get the information that they were drugged. Get a sense of what the drugs did to
them.
Tricks and Traps. There is a lot of double bind stuff with this, unbelievable amounts of double bind. I
had a client who they put in chains, electric shock all over her body, and they would open the door and
say "you can leave if you want to ... all you have to do is just walk out that door ..." So she would start to
head for the door and they would shock her and she would fall down, and they would say, "get up, get
up, it's obvious you don't want to leave, you must like it here". Have you ever tried to get to your feet
with your hands tied behind your back? It is almost impossible. And being shocked? And calling her "a
wimp, a wimp" all the time. That was a big issue with her, being a wimp. She is not a wimp, but I had to
keep saying that, "you are not a wimp, you are not a wimp...." Countering all of those messages in any
way I can. Another way with Tricks and Traps is when alters come out with really aversive behavior or
doing things that look like one thing, but there is really something else. I had a client (this is before I
knew she was mind control) - she got out of hospital and I was seeing her and an alter went to the
kitchen and got a butter knife, and barricaded me in the room with the desk. This alter was male, in a
female clilent. And I just sat there until the obsession was over and I said, "Okay you can give me the
knife now, you have done a really good job ..." "Oh, I have?" "Okay, give me the knife now ..." That was
the end of the session. But if I didn't know what was going on, or intuit or know this client, it could have
been really serious grounds for termination ... (laughter). She is still my client and doing extremely well.
You need a sense of humour ... my clients and I laugh and stuff. I remember one of my clients doing this
horrible memory -- they pricked her all over her body with needles then poured alcohol on her and then
told her they were peeling her skin off and eating it. Sometimes things don't quite fit right, and I will say
"look at that again ... what are they really eating ..." "Chicken." What it turned out was they were having
lunch. There was a bowl of chicken on the table. So disgusting. They were having lunch, and pulling the
skin off the chicken and persuading her this was off her body. And pouring ketchup on her and making
think it was blood. So cruel. But this is the mentality of what we are dealing with. We both just cracked
up ... it wasn't funny, but what it became then, was "is this another chicken?" You can develop this kind
of private language - which teaches them intimacy as well, and develops that feeling in terms of your
own language with each other.
Another trick can be an alter that comes out that doesn't know you, or doesn't know the rest of the
system. This is an alter persona type program. It is a part that wasn't allowed to know there were other
parts inside -- it was put away totally, with lots and lots of amnesia for the system. That part can be fully
developed. I have encountered it, like "Who are you lady?" I am going, "I am Valerie, so?" and they
really don't know who I am. But there have also been reports of alter personas that have been so well
developed that they have a separate history from the person that is in your office, and if they get
accessed they flip to that person ... and they just don't know who the therapist is or anything that is going
on. That can also happen. When they begin to remember they realize the history was manufactured. Can
you imagine if you were you, and then found out that you weren't, that you were really part of a DID
system? This is what the experience is like.
Also, dealing with Blocks. Blocks can be cursing you out. If I get cursed out, "you goddam mother-
fucker, what are you doing messing with ..." I will say, "okay, what else?" What happens after a while,
clients will start laughing because they know what's coming, and we can have fun with it because it has
become a game. Or what I will say with clients, and again it is very individual because different people
deal with this in different ways -- I have a client who comes out with this, and I say to her, "I am so
sorry that you hurt, and I know you are really scared, and I know you are trying so hard to protect, and
you are doing a really good job." I really believe this when I say "you are doing a really good job". What
happens is they will start to get teary. This is a client who I met in the psychiatric hospital, had been
there for nine months, spent 45 days in the "quiet" room because she was so out of control. They would
strap her down, and what I noticed one day is that she would be fighting and it would take like eight
people to get her down. She is this tall but she is big, and tough. Even though she was swinging, this is
as close as she came to anybody. So there was some thought there, some control there. I started talking
to her alters before I knew about mind control. What she was doing, her alters told me, she learned the
only time she ever got hugged or touched, was when she was being abused and held down. She was
recreating it through her behavior -- being held down was better than ... From that time on, I forbad
restraints with her and basically I would go in there, or two staff would go in there, and let her do her
thing, keep her safe off the walls so she couldn't hurt herself, but she never got put in restraints again.
We developed a signal (because she couldn't ask directly) where she would pound on the wall if she
wanted a hug. So the whole staff got into this. I was clinical director so I could do these kinds of things.
If the wall got banged, she got an instant hug and it was so healing for her. Those are the kinds of things
you can also do. But that could have been really disastrous.
When people are doing memories, a lot of times they will try to bite, they will try to pull their hair, they
will try to punch themselves, choke themselves. I am right on top of it. I make sure they are safe. The
other thing you have to watch too, is they will contort and get into positions where limbs can become
dislocated. I am very very careful to make sure this does not happen. I have no compunction about doing
electric shock flashbacks, I have no problem with that. I have dealt with convulsions - in the beginning it
was really scary - but in reality it is like a block, they have to go through the pain to get to the
information imbedded in the memory. Once they get the information, they don't have to do any more.
But sometimes they have to go through the pain. I make sure people are safe - I literally follow them
around like this (demonstrates action) - I may not be touching them - but I am right there. If I touch
anybody, in any way, shape, or form - I always get their permission. I never, ever, ever touch anybody
without their permission. I can see someone for eight years, would you like a hug, is it okay if I touch
your arm. Because sometimes it is not okay depending on what is going on -- I think this is extremely
important. It empowers them as well -- if they don't want something, and they can tell you "No", guess
who else they are telling "No"? It's very healing and this is very, very important.
Disinformation. They used time distortion, they tried to mix people up, planting disinformation through
post-hypnotic suggestions. One of the things I have come across in some of the memories is when they
traumatized somebody and then used electric shock to create amnesia, they also would, when the person
came out of it, and couldn't remember -- they had to give them a cover story, like a screen memory. I
have run into screen memories, some planted, some not. Basically, I had a client who thought she had
been in all these car accidents because she was drunk throughout high school. Guess what? She was not
drunk, and she was not in car accidents. It was because of experiments that she was constantly being
hurt. Those kinds of things become apparent. There is disinformation. People are told that the President
of the United States is involved, or whatever. Sometimes people are involved whom they say, but there
are also people who are not involved. So it is really hard to tell. Every President has been named since
the late 1940's as being part of this and I think there were some that were, but I don't think all of them ...
Psychic Driving is another technique where electrodes were put on the fingers and the toes ... days or
weeks of sleep deprivation with messages going into the ears ... and then they would take all that off,
continue the messages and keep them asleep for a couple of weeks, and it was to drive the messages in
as deep as they could get. And how did they pick messages? This is important to know too ... they were
doing research on these kids all the time. They would pick messages -- they found their greatest, deepest
fears, the things they were most afraid of, the things that affected them the most and that's what they
used. It was different for everybody, that's why it is so individualized and that would get driven home
with a lot of shame and a lot of difficulty.
Programs are memories so in order to defeat them, you go back to the original source of what they
actually did. Think about the implications of this. They can make programming more sophisticated, but
there is always a memory of it, what they actually did. What we see is the behavior as a result, which is a
memory. Behavior, feelings, sensations and knowledge always has to come -- that's the order in which
memories come back generally in my experience. Behavior - what do we see - behavior. It has a specific
thing attached. The reason I say take off the electrodes, just clean them off is because at some point that
did happen, and they just go to that memory. They don't have to go through the whole thing ... skip to
the end ... it's there. Somebody knows. If you are getting a lot of body pain, who is blending? Who is
blending -- you have to teach them not to blend so much. Why are you blending? What's your job? What
is it you are trying to do? The other thing is the core birth personality has to be cleaned off
periodically ... cleaning off alters, cleaning off the core birth personality. If you say who's blending and
you get a smile, no answer -- but the symptoms don't go away with the core birth personality -- have her
stand in the sun and someone check her shadow -- at about 2pm. If you see lumps and bumps on the
shadow -- what those are are alters who have come up out of the matrix and are clinging to the core birth
personality giving her their memories. You get the helpers to peel them off because they are clinging for
dear life, clean them off, get them to the safe place.
Blending is when you have the core birth personality out in the body and an alter comes and blends with
the core birth personality but doesn't come all the way out until it's over. They are in the background,
you can't see them, the core doesn't always know they are there, but you are getting all these symptoms.
Symptoms of their memory.
(Q. A. I don't bring up stuff until they bring it up with me. This whole model is great in terms of non-
leading, non-directive ... if someone describes stuff to me, or tells me stuff, then I will give them
information. But we will do the safe place stuff as standard therapy stuff. I don't go into it like I am
doing today.)
Alienation from God - a lot of the treatment is spiritual, and that's toward the end, or whenever they
bring it up, because they will. There is a lot of stuff around God doesn't care about you, do you think
God would really let this happen.
Black holes aren't talked about ... move them out of the safe place ... if you have a black hole effect --
where someone feels like they are disappearing, that's a black hole. You basically say, get everybody
out, fill it in from the bottom. If you can't find it, use spray paint. Spray and what happens is the black
holes show up black. It works.
Spin programs are when kids were put on tables, strapped down in the spread eagle - every one of my
clients draws those pictures - and the tables were spun. Symptoms of spin programming are dizziness,
nausea, disorganization, they feel like they are spinning. I will say "Oh that's a spin program. Just turn
off the switch." At the end of the memory -- these were electric tables that went around -- or sometimes
they were gyroscope or whatever -- there is always a switch or something to turn it off -- because at
some point it did stop in the memory. I have a client who kind of gropes behind on the wall and turns the
switch off and it stops instantly. Again, it's a memory, but you want to get them to the end of the
memory, because they are coming out in a re-live.
Vortex, tornados, whirlpools. These are like swirling things and again -- how you can tell the
difference between a spin program and a vortex is that a vortex is a combination of a black hole and a
spin program if you think about it -- they are slowly being put out while they are spun so they have this
feeling of being sucked down into something. They have a movie showing of a tornado that even
increases the effect. This is how sophisticated some of this was. What you do with this -- create a
counter tornado, vortex, or whatever going the opposite way -- make them merge -- and it cancels it out.
Body pain. Take off the electrodes. Take out the needles. Sometimes I have to do this with my clients,
teach them initially and then they do this a couple of times a day. It is really important to teach them the
difference between body pain and real physical pain. I always take them to this wonderful doctor to get
things checked out. Find a wonderful doctor who will take you seriously and not think you are crazy,
who will really investigate symptoms. But I seriously try to teach clients the difference. I have clients
who come in and say "I have a headache" and I will say "okay, we have work to do" and they will say
"Valerie, well sometimes an apple is just an apple" and then she will get on the couch, and she will do
her work, and then "oh the headache is gone" and I will say, "well, I guess you had work to do".
Lock in, lock out. Basically what that is, they physically put a child in a box with a lock, or behind a
door in a room with a lock. Some of my clients have had the experience of being bricked in or cemented
into a room, again, and again and again. These kids were trained to be spies, right? Well we have
lockpickers inside, so who is a good lockpicker? We send in the "lockpickers" to get whoever is locked
in, out, untie them. Sometimes they are chained to the wall, sometimes they are hanging, whatever, but
we get them out. You know it's a Lock in, Lock out, when the core birth personality has disappeared and
nobody knows where she is. Somebody knows. She is locked in somewhere. Or sometimes the core birth
personality is locked out into the body and can't get back inside. So when you loose that freedom of
movement, you've got in a lock in, lock out program. Just look for the doors and the locks and again you
just ask them. Get the lockpickers. I had a client who was stuck in a room, it was metal, and you couldn't
tell where the doors were. I said "somebody knows because they saw the doors close". The person said
"I know the door that we can't go through". "The one with the tiger behind it." I said, "Great, that's the
one we go through." Whatever they said "Don't do", then that's what we had better do it, because since
when did they ever give good advice for anything that would help you ... that's a good reframe.
Split brain. We've talked about and there's more to that but I am not ....
Chutes are like ladders, and they are sort of related to black holes where all of a sudden someone who is
doing great, then all of a sudden they are suicidal -- it's sort of like a black hole but it's like a slide-down,
a chute, into a thicket of nasty messages. Again, we just pull them out, fill it up, get rid of the slime.
Serial programs are date specific where they literally ... one of the things to bear in mind ... and it can
look SRA and they used a lot of satanic ritual abuse imagery to confuse them and make them think it
was ritual abuse ... which is how they come to us ... but, the date specifics coincide with school holidays.
They are also roughly, loosely around Satanic holidays -- Easter, spring break, before you go to school
in August, not Hallowe'en so much but they did, Christmastime ... so they coincide ... or they might
actually have gotten kids on the Satanic holidays if they were that specific.
Mirror programs. It's like a maze of mirrors, fun-house mirrors, they are caught in it. Somebody
actually physically went through this. All the distortions when they look in the mirrors ... What you do is
take the mirrors down, unlock them because they are all locked together, just stack them up very
carefully, you don't want to break them, and then just throw them in the sun (garbage disposal is the sun
in the sky) and get rid of them.
I hope I have given you a flavour of how concrete and literal this is. One of my clients said to me "I bet
you have a lot of clients this time of year who are just hanging by a thread." My answer, " Who inside is
hanging by a thread?" This is how you listen. And sure enough there was a whole group hanging by a
thread. It is very concrete, very literal. Really getting very concretely into the memories, because that is
how it ends up being undone.
Wayne Morris:
We have been listening to a presentation by Valerie Wolf entitled Assessment and Treatment of
Survivors of Sadistic Abuse that she gave at the recent Believe the Children Conference in Chicago in
April, 1997. You are listening to CKLN, The International Connection. We are in the middle of the
extended radio series on mind control, and this is show #17. This will be continuing until October of this
year. Transcripts of these shows are available on www.mk.net/~mcf/ckln-hm.htm and you can call the
station 416-595-1655 if you want to get that address again if you didn't catch it.


The CIA, Mind Control & Children
A Talk by John Rappoport
CKLN FM 88.1

Today we are going to hear from investigative journalist Jon Rappoport give a talk entitled The CIA,
Mind Control, and Children about the CIA's use of children for creating mind control agents. Author of
U.S. Government Mind Control Experiments on Children, he talks about the impact of the mind control
testimony submitted to the Presidential hearings on radiation experiments. Jon also speaks about the
mindset of those responsible for these horrors and the implications to society.
John Rappoport:
We are going to launch into this subject, but with a few comments before we start. Mind control is one
of those things people don't like to talk about, including yours truly frankly. I got into it, and I saw the
evidence, and it was ... you know, there it was.
Officially MKULTRA was a CIA mind control project that lasted about 10 years ... let's say from 1952
to 1962-63 ... Before it started, there was ARTICHOKE AND BLUEBIRD ... those were other CIA
mind control projects. After it ended, supposedly in 1963, an office called ORD Office of Research and
Development took it over. Their job we don't know about ... we are not sure of everything they did
because that information is not available. It is in 130 boxes of material somewhere ... maybe in Langley,
Virginia but they won't release it. Various people have said that they employed more sophisticated
measures than MKULTRA to do mind control on people.
I think one of the reasons that this is such an important subject is because we are looking at people here
who have a certain attitude about life itself, and these people are in the government and they are in
important positions in the government ... and in order to understand what they are really about, we get a
look at them that is unprecedented by looking at what they did with this kind of experimentation on
humans. In other words, they hate life. That's pretty clear. They have their own version of life, which is
like "death" and that's where their life is ... that's what they feed off of. I would say that most, if not all,
secret societies are based on the same concept. Once you cut through all the paraphenalia and
symbology of secret societies, you are basically dealing with people who have, for one reason or
another, given up on life completely. They are now into the form of life that is involved with death ...
that's their territory. And it's a pretty horrendous thing to say, but I think that would be borne out. My
own feeling is that we are talking about a confluence of different influences here on individuals that go
back a long way into the past ... into the history of families in which they grew up ... I am talking about
long term history of what those families are ... and these people who are entirely functional, but entirely
psychotic if you want to use that term. It doesn't really do it justice but it tells you something about
them. I am talking about John Foster Dulles and Allen Dulles ... I would say they are very good
examples. Look at their faces ... look at what you see there ... you see almost nothing. There is a kind of
mask-like quality about these people, an emptiness -- very competent people who go about their
business, who seem to have no feeling or "juice" for life. And I would say these people are often born
into families who go back centuries possibly in that kind of disconnected condition from life. While they
are able to function very successfully in society and deal with power, because that is their ticket and
their coinage, they find that control and destruction of life is the only thing really that gives them life.
Since I have read this information that I will be sharing with you tonight, I am beginning to come to the
conclusion that the people who were involved in the nuclear weapons scenario really wanted to destroy
the world. It may seem obvious to say but they see that as "liberation" if you can wrap your mind around
that ... as a release from, what they consider to be an oppressive situation that just simply can't be
tolerated. They see destruction as liberation and so the only thing that would hold them back, I think,
from destroying the world is the feeling that they may not have the playground left in which to enact
their scenarios of destruction. There would only be one, and that would be the explosion that would take
care of the planet.
I would say that this is what we are dealing with. I would put up as a model against that, on the other
side, although this man is not a messiah by any means, but if you know any of the work by Wilhelm
Reich, the psychiatrist who broke away from Freud, he developed an entire psychology around the
concept of liberation of energy ... from within the person ... that was locked up. It was really the first
time ... he was the main figure in the history of Western psychology, let's put it that way ... which was a
recent effort. To simply say that we are talking about energy here, and that freedom and the release of
free energy from a human being against blocked up channels gives you what is called "life" -- that's life.
And he was, of course, destroyed by the government. He had a device that was an energy accumulator
device. He was arrested because a federal agent posing as a buyer or distributor of that device offered to
take off his hands and bring it through state lines and so he was served a su bpoena to appear before the
federal government that involved illegal interstate commerce, and his comment was rather native, he
said, "how can they possibly serve me ... that's politics ... I am talking about science." He didn't honour
the subpoena, they put him in jail, and he died. He was talking about fantastical things like plumes of
blue energy shooting out of the top of a person into the sky and this kind of liberation of energy would
occur. He said that energy creates clouds, and storms, and weathers, the same energy that we have inside
ourselves is identical and he called the unit of it an "orgone". He invented these wild machines that were
able to, supposedly, manoeuvre this energy around. He is a fascinating person, and I always hold him up
as a person who ultimately stands for the other side of things -- which is life.
The reason that you find some of these fascist lunatics involved with magic and occult sciences and
heavy, heavy, heavy symbology and all of that ... is because within these secret societies, they are
dealing in death as life.
If you could imagine life as a kind of hourglass and they fall through the top and through the skinny part
and out the bottom and they see that as being a form of living, and they take their sensation and their
thrills from some sort of upside down version of life. I wanted to paint that little sketch before I started,
because we are going to get into some pretty strange territory here. I want to say that I think this is
basically what is going on. It's important to know that these people occupy key positions in our
government and still do and they are not accountable. It tells you something about what is called a
democracy ...
I have brought some testimony together into this book called, US Government Mind Control
Experiments on Children. It's a compilation basically of testimony that was given in Washington and
before I read from it while I can still remember ... I want to make a few announcements, a little bit about
myself and the people who are here tonight. This is Deep River Books. She Who Remembers is taping
this talk ... the tape is available afterwards. I will probably forget to remind you and Jeannie will stand
up and say something. Ralph Cole of Justice Vision is taping. He has also been taping meetings of Heal,
an alternative AIDS group which is doing some excellent work about bringing the truth about AIDS to
people and he has some of those tapes available too. This book is available upstairs at Deep River, and
so is another book of mine, called AIDS Inc. which I wrote in 1988.
I am investigative reporter, for about the last fifteen years, and I basically have been investigating what I
call medical fascism which I believe is the mechanism by which people are going to be dragged into
Brave New World if that is the outcome that we unfortunately end up with. That issue is not decided, but
because the medical world has such great authority with people, they believe so much in doctors and
experts, they are going to try to make that move ... they are going to try to bring people to heel under the
aegis of medicine ... they are going to try to say that they know science, and therefore you have to listen
to what they say, and if they say take a drug, or you are suffering from a germ, there is no questioning
that. If they say you are detained or quarantined, there is no questioning that ... I see that as being
something that is coming around here.
This testimony was given before the President's Committee on Radiation on March 15, 1995. We had
three people who went up there from New Orleans ... Valerie Wolf, a therapist and two of her clients,
Claudia Mullen and Chris Denicola. God only knows how they got in and testified. I have heard the
story from Valerie, and I still don't even believe it, but ... basically she told me the screener up there, the
person who was screening applicants to speak about cruel and unusual radiation experiments on
Americans ... she said, well I have clients and they are saying that some of these doctors who
administered radiation, administered mind control to them so we want to talk. And they said okay. They
testified, from what I can gather, for a very short period of time verbally. They submitted a lot of
testimony to the Committee from other therapists and other patients, and they somehow got in ... nobody
knows how ... but they got in and that opens a certain kind of door for us, because it puts it on th e
record and it gives it a certain legitimacy and what these patients essentially said was, from the time they
were 4 years old, 7 years old, they were tortured by the CIA and the military. You can call it something
more sophisticated, but it really isn't. It involved electroshock, physical torture, lights, spinning tables,
hallucinogenic drugs, sleep deprivation, isolation tanks, hypnosis, mind programming with commands,
layers of trauma that induced buffer zones of amnesia between the traumas, and essentially thereby
created multiple personalities. As one psychological theory has it, if you induce enough trauma, you get
a split in the personality because the person can't face the pain, so they put that part out of it, and they
come with a new personality. If you keep doing it, you invoke or create different personalities, and then
if you are the CIA you try to program these sub-personalities to do different things like memorize
information photographi cally and not remember it, do courier operations, assassinations, sex agents,
blackmail operations, all of this.
Now I must say that I think some representations of this kind of operation are a little too neat and
clean ... that is people assume it is like (clicks fingers ...) ... okay we will create 37 personalities now and
program each one ... do these commands and call it up and da da da da ... I really doubt that it works that
way. I think that in many cases, it is a total wash-out. In many cases, it is just psychosis time, madness.
(In many cases people are killed because they just won't respond, and they will not stand for it no matter
what is induced ...) There are two tracks here ... and these are the tracks. There is testimony by the
people saying this was done to me ... and then you decide if you believe that or not. Then over here,
there are attempts to verify through obtaining documents from the CIA and the military that such
experiments did in fact go on to create a parallel track of research to give credence to what these people
are saying over here because there are many good people w ho want to say this is all nut-case territory
over here, and we don't want to know about it, and frankly, I don't blame them. So the researchers have
said, the ones who are really into this, we want to try to document it as well on the other side and efforts
have been made in that direction, and continue to be made in that direction.
Let me introduce into the record, and it would be nice if we were all sitting here in front of an Arlen
"Single Bullet Theory" Spector and people like that ... something called Volume Seven, Recent
Advances in Biological Psychiatry, the Proceedings of the19th Annual Convention and Scientific
Program of the Society of Biological Psychiatry, Los Angeles, May 13, 1964. The Officers of this group
include Ewen Cameron, M.D., Psychiatrist from Canada many will recognize as possibly the major
monster on the planet as far as mind control ... much has been written about him ... I am not going to talk
much about him tonight. In Part One in the Table of Contents, we have the following paper: "Automatic
Nervous System Responses in Hospitalized Children Treated with LSD and UML" and one of the
researchers is Loretta Bender. Loretta Bender cannot be nailed down as being a CIA employee. She was
in fact, in 1961, a president of the Society of Biological Psychiatry, but she was part of a small group of
researchers who were doing early LSD research ... most of whom were doing it for the CIA. She
attended conferences where those people showed up ... like this, and she attended at least one conference
by the Josiah Macey Foundation which was a conduit and front for CIA money. The paper is rather
lengthy but I am just going to read you a few things from it. This is not part of the book.
"In the children's unit of Creedmore State Hospital with a resident population of 450 patients, ages 4 to
15, we have investigated the responses of some of these children to lysergic acid and related drugs in the
psychiatric, psychological and biochemical areas. Two groups of boys receiving daily LSD, UML
(which is a methylated derivative of LSD) or psilocybin ... at first the medication was given weekly but
was eventually given daily for periods of up to several months. Dosages remain constant throughout,
LSD 150 mcg. (which is a standard for an adult trip), psilocybin 20 mg. daily or UML 12 mg. daily, all
given in two divided doses. The average duration of treatment was 2 to 3 months." Daily. Children, 7, 9 ,
11 years old ...
The psychiatrist who sent me this told me that he has a statement at home which he is going to fax me
which shows that in several cases at least with these children, this was carried on for several years daily.
Of course, all of the testimony here about what happened to the children is they got nothing but better ...
these were autistic, retarded (a loose term signifiying really nothing), but autistic or schizophrenic
children ... that was the diagnosis. They all "responded, became more straightforward, and here" and
whatever. You decide ...
That is a very significant piece of evidence here. That shows that as early as 1964, the CIA was in fact
experimenting ... or a person with probable CIA connections ... was experimenting on young children
with LSD and other similar drugs.
Now I have here a staff memorandum given to me by Harlan Girard, a very active researcher in his field,
to Members of the Advisory Committee on Human Radiation Experiments from the Advisory
Committee staff on June 27, 1994, and this is a summary of the CIA, its history and its activities. In
other words, members of the Committee on Radiation staff submitted this to the Committee at large to
kind of clue them in on what the CIA is prior to the 1995 Hearing of the President's Committee on
Radiation, and they say, "In the 1950's and 60's the CIA engaged in an extensive program of human
experimentation using drugs, psychological and other means, in search of techniques to control human
behaviour for counter intelligence and covert action purposes." This is quite an admission. In other
words, they are training agents, it says here, by using mind control on them. It doesn't say they are using
mind control just to sort of get information from foreign agents. The possibility that the CIA itself
engaged in human radiation experiments emanates from references in a 1963 CIA Inspector General's
report on project MKULTRA which was a "program concerned with research and development of
chemical, biological and radiological materials capable of deployment in clandestine operations to
control human behaviour." Now in the rest of this report, they indicate that they cannot find any records
of specific radiological experiments carried out by the CIA, and obviously they are looking. This doesn't
look like a total whitewash.
But that doesn't mean that you believe them, it just means that those records have been destroyed or
hidden away deep hidden away ... because everybody agrees that radiation is a bad thing ... and the
CIA ... the last thing they want is for people to believe that they used radiation on people. But this does
indicate that there was a reference about research and development of radiation by the CIA for purposes
of deployment in clandestine operations to control human behaviour. How the hell do you use radiation
in clandestine operations to control human behaviour? Well, I would suggest that you use it to
traumatize people whom you are training as agents so that you can gain control of them and you
therefore have them under your thumb, and they do what you want them to do. The testimony here tends
to bear that out ... that radiation was used on people as a method of inducing trauma, not as a way of
testing ... you know ... does radiation cause harm? Which is sort of the gist of the President 's Committee
on Radiation ... they went half-way. They said "terrible things were done to unwitting Americans ...
radiation was used by doctors on them in hospitals" but this goes further, we are now talking about a
whole other leve, because those those experiments which were supposedly carried on as a misguided
effort to see what toxicity levels were like, unfortunate occurrences, things got out of control at times,
isolated individuals did commit crimes, da da da da .... you know. But they were attempting to do
medical research ... and that's one of those hypnotic phrases, "medical research". I could probably put
everybody to sleep just by saying "medical research, medical research ..." (laughter) And people would
reach into their pockets and come out with money, man ... well hey, cancer and infantile paralysis and m.
s. ... whatever you want ... I'll give you money ... medical research, medical research. Politicians know
that's the key they turn all the time ... when they can't figure out what to say, they say we need more
money for research ... and that means tax money and it means things you don't want to be subjected to
most of the time ...
Valerie Wolf is something else ... this woman is down in New Orleans ... she is seeing clients other
people won't see ... therefore they tell strange stories. These are clients who have been fired by other
therapists ... they are very unruly, out of control, they do not recover, nothing works, they cut
themselves, they go into hospitals, they try to commit suicide ... they are people that therapists generally
flee from ... and she says "let's go ..." That's her scene ... so it stands to reason that she would hear stories
that other therapists cannot hear ... and in her statement to the Committee on Radiation March 15, 1995,
she says, " ... the research programs [that her clients were submitted to] included radiation, drugs, mind
control and chemicals ... my clients have reported all of these being used on them, although technically
they were considered to be part of the mind control experiments. Generally it appears that therapists
across the country are finding clients who have been subjected to mind control techniques. The
consistency of their stories about the purpose of the mind control and the techniques such as
electroshock, use of hallucinogens, sensory deprivation, spinning, dislocation of limbs, and sexual abuse
is remarkable. There is almost nothing published on this aspect of mind control used on children, and
these clients come from all over the country having had no contact with each other. From the small
sample of therapists to whom I talked, it appears that about 25% of the clients report memories of being
used in radiation experiments. It is possible that more people were exposed to radiation, but that the
memories have not yet emerged because our awareness of this experimentation is so new."
Let me say now, before we get into it further, that the one organization in the United States that has tried
to debunk all of this is called the False Memory Syndrome Foundation. They are based in Philadelphia.
They say that any recovered memories in therapy, that is any patient who goes into therapy and recovers
a memory is a liar or unintentionally lying because their therapist induced it, suggested it, guided it,
okay? Now, I talked to these people and at certain levels they are very well meaning of course ... that is
always the way. I talked to their PR person and I asked when were you born, this organization? She said,
"1992". I said well how extensive is it? And she said, "We have a chapter in every state." Now for
anybody who has ever been an activist or worked in non-profit 501C3 ... are you kidding me man? You
have a chapter in every state in 3 years? You're cooking, you are cooking ... and in foreign countries they
have chapters too. But no foundation money and no government funding ... this is like, you know, they
are like ... walking on water ... you know? (audience member: "It took McDonald's longer ...) There we
go. That's the False Memory Syndrome Foundation ... (audience member: "individual contributions ...")
It is true ... now that organization was founded by Pamela Freyd ... her daughter accused her husband of
abuse as a child ... and in the resultant uproar they founded this organization ... Frontline on PBS did an
entire episode on all of this ...
... and then received a letter, from I think it was the daughter's brother who said, that was quite a
presentation you put on about the FMSF and my mother ... and I just wanted to tell you though that
despite your sympathetic treatment of this organization, everything my sister said was absolutely true
and they were abusing her from the time she was a little kid." That's interesting about the beginning of
this organization.
Now on the board of this organization we have such luminaries as Louis Joly West ... Louis "I never
worked for the CIA" Joly West. This guy has been documented to have done all kinds of stuff for the
CIA and military on mind control stuff ... gave LSD to an elephant, and killed it. Wanted to start the
Centre for the Study of Violence at UCLA in the l970's. We have letters, and this was going to be
located in a used, abandoned missile base somewhere out north of LA, and part of the deal was they
were going to do psychosurgery on violent offenders which is the selective melting of brain connections
to keep people from being violent. And this was touted as being highly medical, very precise. This is
right in the ballpark of what I am talking about here when they say "it's all medical ... we have
miniaturized and we can take out certain neurons here and there, and everything's cool." Some people
throw up their hands and say who am I to ... I don't know ... maybe they are right ...
Peter Breggin, a psychiatrist who investigates toxic drugs and violence projects against citizens using
psychiatry as a front ... he lays it on psychiatrists. He discovered that the one case where they claimed a
cure by psychosurgery was turned into a gibbering lunatic and that's why he was cured of violence. He
wasn't able to even live unless somebody was taking care of him all the time and this particular patient
was heralded as a cure by Frank Irvin and Bernie Sweet and these guys in the 70's who were the doctors
doing psychosurgery. That was their model, showcase cure of violence.
So Louis West, who wanted to start this centre at UCLA, is on the board of FMSF and so is Martin
Orne, a Harvard psychiatrist who has done contract work for the CIA in the past. And several other
people who have those kinds of connections. They want to debunk this stuff right out of the box ... forget
it. This is the kind of stuff they want to debunk. Claudia Mullen, client of Valerie Wolf, reports to the
Presidential Commission: "Between the years of 1957 and 1984 I became a pawn in a government
scheme whose ultimate goal was mind control and to create the perfect spy. All through the use of
chemicals, radiation, electroshock, hypnosis, drugs, isolation in tubs of water, sleep deprivation,
brainwashing, and verbal, physical, emotional and sexual abuse. I was exploited unwittingly for nearly
three decades of my life, and the only explanation given to me was that 'the end justifies the means' and I
was serving my country in their bold effort to fight communism. I can only summarize my
circumstances by saying they took an already abused 7 year old child and compounded my suffering
beyond belief. In 1958 I was to be tested, they told me, by some important doctors coming from a place
called The Society [... that's the Human Ecology Society, a known CIA front]. I was told to cooperate,
answer any of their questions, then since the tests might hurt, I would be given shots, xrays, and jolts of
electricity. I was also instructed not to look in anyone's face too hard and to ignore names, as this was a
very secret project ... but to be brave and all those things would help me forget. Naturally as most
children do, I did the opposite, and remembered as much as I could. A Dr. John Gittinger [Rapaport:
these people in the testimony named names, they did not screw around ...] tested me and Dr. Cameron
gave me the shocks, and Dr. Green, the xrays. Then I was told by Sid Gottlieb I was right for the Big
A ... meaning Artichoke."
"By the time I left to go home, just like every time from then on, I would recall nothing of my tests or
the different doctors. I would only remember whatever explanations Dr. Robert Heath of Tulane
Medical School gave me for the odd bruises, needle marks, burns on my head and fingers, and even the
genital soreness. I had no reason to believe otherwise. Already they had begun to control my mind. The
next year I was sent to a place in Maryland called Deep Creek Cabins to learn how to sexually please
men. I was taught how to coerce them into talking about themselves. It was Richard Helms, Deputy
Director of the CIA, Dr. Gottlieb, Capt. George White and Morse Allen who all planned on filming as
many high government and agency officials, and heads of academic institutions and foundations as
possible. So later, when the funding for radiation and mind control started to dwindle, then the project
would continue at any cost [in other words, blackmail]. I was to become a regular little spy for them
after that summer. Eventually trapping many unwitting men, including themselves, all with the use of a
hidden camera. I was only 9 years old when this kind of sexual humiliation began. I overheard
conversations about a part of the agency called ORD run by Dr. Green, Dr. Stephen Aldrich, Martin
Orne and Morse Allen ...."
Dr. John Gittinger was Sid Gottlieb's protege ... Gittinger tested everybody. He was like a fanatical
tester, developing profiles of humans, different types of humans, all kinds of questionnaire type tests.
Sid Gottlieb was the head of MKULTRA projects for the CIA ... a very high ranking bureaucrat,
probably never treated a patient in his life. These people (testifying) were saying that these people were
doing it ... they were not supervising it alone, they were doing it. Dr. Green seems to be a name that is a
cover name that many different people used. However there was a Dr. L. Wilson Green, Technical
Director of US Army Chemical and Radiological Laboratories at the Army Chemical Centre ... so we
could have both things happening there. Richard Helms became director of the CIA ... a real smooth
operator. He was the person who destroyed many MKULTRA files before they could be revealed. Capt.
George White made a statement to the effect of "nowhere else but in the CIA could a young, red-blood
ed American rape, pillage and plunder without ... accountability" He set up a brothel in San Francisco in
the 60's, paid off prostitutes to bring in johns to a room which he was filming, and these johns
unwittingly drank LSD in their cocktails, and filming was supposedly to determine what the effects of
LSD were on unwitting subjects. This is documented up and down. By the way, for those of you who
want to get the background here, John Marks' Search for the Manchurian Candidate, Walter Bowart's
Operation Mind Control now updated, are upstairs ... and there is a very difficult book to find called
The Mind Manipulators by Alan Scheflin which goes into a wider arena and is a very valuable reference
source. There are many other books, Journey into Madness ... but the Marks' book, Scheflin book, and
the Bowart book all took off from the same revelation of the ten or so boxes of information that were
finally released by the CIA in about 1977 ... they were actually financial records of MKULTRA. They
didn't think they were very incriminating, but they finally began to look at them and saw they were very
incriminating. A mistake ...
Then we had Morse Allen who was the head of Project Bluebird, another mind control project. High up
people here she is talking about ... who planned on filming as many high up officials ... She says "I
overheard conversations about a part of the agency called ORD run by Dr. Green, Dr. Stephen Aldrich"
who became Director of ORD researched remote control of brains by electrodes, he went to the college I
went to, Amherst College ... hope I run into him some time. Martin Orne, mentioned again ... we are not
stinting here on names, these people just named them ... sitting here in a room in Washington, D.C.
before the President's Committee on Radiation saying that Richard Helms was involved in torture and
brainwashing of children. Now, Valerie Wolf makes this comment about Claudia Mullen: "After 9
months of therapy, she came to therapy one day with MKULTRA written with other words on a piece of
paper ... the first time ... she had never mentioned any of this before. From that point on, she began to
work on the mind control issues and began to improve. All of her memories have emerged
spontaneously, without the use of memory enhancement techniques such as hypnosis or sodium amytal.
I had told her nothing about government and CIA research projects. To the best of my knowledge, she
has read nothing about mind control or CIA covert operations. Since she decided to listen carefully and
remember as much as she could about conversations among the researchers, her memories are
extraordinarily complete. I have sent written copies of memories to Dr. Alan Scheflin for validation [the
author of The Mind Manipulators who is a professor of law at the University of Santa Clara]. He has
confirmed that she has knowledge of events and people that are not published anywhere ... that some of
her memories contain new information and that some are already known and published. Some of her
memories have been confirmed by family members. She has also shown me old scrapbooks where she
wrote notes to remember what was happening to her, and hid the notes under the pictures in the
scrapbooks." Claudia Mullen states that she is still being monitored, that there is a doctor in New
Orleans, who was her family doctor. She names him in her longer testimony ... and she said to me, "don't
tell him you are going to do something before you do it, just do it."
Apparently as recently as a month or two ago, she feels that ... it's a strange situation ... apparently she is
not positive that this doctor was monitoring her, but now she is. She went to his office ... she doesn't
remember what happened to her ... there were marks on her when she left the office ... and she feels he is
still monitoring her. So there is an element of danger involved in this, for these people. Some of these
statements in here are anonymous. Some therapists made statements anonymously because there was
public censure by their peers for getting into this stuff. I am told that a therapist named Corey Hammond
spoke at a recent convention on methods of deprogramming this kind of mind control that he has
developed ... Valerie Wolf says she is using these, and they are terrific, they work. He has been subject
to a lot of censure by other psychologists, societies, whatever it is and that he doesn't want to talk to
people any more, just for making a verbal presentation at this conference.
Chris Denicola, another client of Valerie Wolf. Tucson, Arizona. "I was taught how to pick locks, be
secretive, use my photographic memory. Dr. Green taught me a technique to withhold information by
repeating numbers to myself. He would show me information, then shock me [electroshock]. I would
repeat the numbers in my head. I refused to disclose the information that he just gave me, and he found
me to be very successful in that part of his mind control experiment. I was four years old. He moved on
to wanting me to kill dolls that looked like real children. I stabbed a doll with a spear once, after being
severely tortured. The next time I refused. Dr. Green used many torture techniques, but as a I got older, I
resisted more and more. He often tied me down in a cage near his office. Between 1972 and 76, he and
his assistants were sometimes careless and left the cage unlocked. At these times I snuck into his office
and found files with reports and memos addressed to CIA and military personnel. Included in these files
were program projects, sub-projects, subject and experiment names, with some code numbers for
radiation and mind control experiments. I was caught twice and Dr. Green tortured me ruthlessly with
electric shock, drugs, spinning me on a table, putting shots in my stomach and my back, dislocating my
joints and hypnotic techniques to make me feel crazy and suicidal. Because of my rebellion and growing
lack of cooperation, they gave up on me as a spy assassin. Consequently the last two years, 1974-76, Dr.
Green had access to me. He used various mind control techniques to reverse the spy-assassin messages
through self destruct and death messages if I ever remembered anything. His purpose? He wanted me
dead and I have struggled to stay alive all of my adult life. I believe that it is truly by the grace of God
that I am still alive."
That's just a piece of her testimony. A statement from Alan Scheflin, lawyer, professor of law, Santa
Clara: "Claudia's therapist [Valerie Wolf] has been kind enough to send me, with her client's informed
consent, some of the pertinent records reflecting Claudia's memories of her experiences as an unwitting
subject in these experiments. I have been able to confirm that some of the information Claudia has
provided is absolutely true and could not have been derived from any published source." I spoke with
Scheflin and he said to me, I thought he was playing it a little close to the vest with this, I understand he
is writing a book on this, so I don't know ... he said, "there is one piece of information that I was able to
confirm, and I don't know how she could possibly have known this. It involves the connection between
two government researchers that is not published anywhere" and he said "I just happened to know that
they are connected and she mentioned that they knew each other."
Let me just comment on some of this here. All throughout this testimony you have other clients and
patients saying similar things. Dr. Green, Dr. Green, Dr. Green, Dr. Green. Electroshock. Torture, sex
abuse and all of that. About three weeks ago I met a woman who is a therapist. She works north of Los
Angeles. If you met this woman and talked to her, you would say 'she's very on top of things, she is very
smart, she seems like a real human being.' So she looks at me and she says, "I was part of this when I
was a kid, as a child." She doesn't want to talk about it yet, but she said, "... this business about creating
perfect spies, I don't think that's it. I don't think that's why they were really doing it." Part of the
explanation about what they were supposedly trying to do was to create blank slates ... that was their
thinking. You can take a human being and erase their mind, then we can program it to be whatever we
want it to be. Well adults just go psychotic, so let's try children ... they are more flexible and they have
less in their mind to take out ... how mechanistic can you get, and that would be the rationale
supposedly. From that it has been assumed that the whole point of this was to create a perfect spy, with
with nice neat categories of sub-personalities, and program and trigger words, manchurian candidate
type stuff. You know, "we will now call up sub-personality 134. Are you there?" "Yes I am here." "What
have you learned on your recent trip to Vienna?" Start. Bing. And then sub-personality 134 says, "I
boarded the train, and went to Vienna, and read the following documents that were given to me ..." --
like a computer? That this was the intention. But this woman said to me, "Yeah, but I think there is
something beyond this. It is somewhere in the back of my mind, but I can't get to it." I didn't question
her about how she knows this, but she said "First of all this was a very wide-ranging project ... there
were echelons of the project, not just simply one level. There were children brought up from South
America and Mexico. They were considered expendable. They were used with the crudest techniques of
brainwashing and so forth. The idea was to learn from this techniques in a more refined way techniques
that would be used on another echelon of children. The best and brightest in America." I said, "Do you
mean children from well-to-do families?" She said, "Not necessarily. The smartest."
They could be thinking that what they want to do is program these kids who would later, supposedly,
emerge in prominent positions in society, so that they would then have long term control of society by
controlling people in power positions. She said (she didn't say "yes") but she said, "Well, yeah, that
makes sense. The Nazis got a hold of the intelligentsia. They turned the intelligentsia -- they were able
to either silence or bring the intelligentsia into their fold -- so it was a major project. She said to me,
"They brought a lot of doctors over here after the War and not just the rocket scientists ... they brought a
lot of doctors over here." And all throughout this testimony you will read, sprinkled here, "a doctor with
a German accent ... was it Green ... was it Greenburg ... a German Jew? ... did it look like he was a
Jew? ... he had blonde hair ..." That kind of stuff.
I would say this is a Nazi project, but a lot of the Nazis are American-born. It shouldn't be excused or
explained away on that basis because as we know, if we look at Nazi psychiatry for example, they
learned a lot from the Americans, especially about eugenics. This is not something where we should say,
" ... well, the Nazis took over ..." This is home-grown stuff. This is Americana at its worst, at its lowest
form. This is also the sub-sub-basement that you walk into when you are a materialist, when that is your
philosophy. And I don't mean you are a materialist in the sense that you want money, possessions ... I
mean, philosophically. The materialist position is that we are meat, and tissue, and cells, and electrical
impulses, and that's it. When that system collapses, we are gone, never to return. My own feeling is that
when you espouse and embrace that philosophy, the ultimate, ultimate sub-basement that you end up in
is that sub-basement ... that's where you end up. Finally, that's where it all comes out.
I must say, even though I admire many of the researchers on psychedelics, and feel that they are
basically liberating types of people, I think some of them make a mistake when they start talking about,
" ... well, it's all chemicals anyway ... what difference does it make? ... we are only dealing with
chemical reactions anyway, so what's this nonsense about consciousness separate from chemicals?"
They are using that of course to say, "why is the government trying to outlaw the use of psychedelics, if
in fact all consciousness is chemical anyway, they are just being selective in their choices of chemical ...
they are saying 'alcohol - yes, lsd - no'." But I think these people have something to think about in this
one area. I am not trying to put them down at all, in fact I admire them. But I think when they start
talking about "well, consciousness is just chemicals anyway..." I am afraid I have to disagree. I think it is
a lot more than chemicals. You can certainly make people do very bizar re things with chemicals, and
you can make them suffer a great deal because we are in these bodies ... it's a lot more than that. That's
where I think you wind up. You wind up with this crazy idea about programming people ... that's where I
think you wind up with this stuff.
On the plus side, if we know this, if we understand what is happening here, and therapists can be
brought into this whole dialogue, then we are talking about bridging something that is very un-middle-
class into the middle-class and into people who normally don't consider these kinds of things because we
are talking therapists here, private practice therapists whose patients come into their office and say "I
was part of CIA mind control." I am not saying that the middle class is not some fabulous entity that we
have to somehow court, but I am saying that this is an issue which can get some people involved who
normally do not get involved and if they are so willing, they can create some havoc with the government
and that's my next point here.
One of the reasons that I am going into this, and getting involved in it, is because I want people to begin
to see the government for what it actually is and I think this is a way of doing that. Unequivocally
coming to it. People say, "the government, yeah ... if we just get more of the right people in ... a little
more funding for research ... more this ... more that ... everything is going to work out and we will get
the nice guys, elect Bill and don't elect George, and elect Jim and don't elect Phil ..." You know ... it's all
this kind of whipsawing stuff I see every time an election comes around. "We gotta vote for Bill because
if we don't we'll get George ..." and this and that ... boppada bop .... It's like a vice that people are in, and
everybody knows it.
I have a statement here from Colin Ross. A very interesting man. Never heard of him before. He's a
psychiatrist from Richardson, Texas. He has been researching the CIA for 20 years. Every time an
MKULTRA type researcher dies, he sends away FOIA requests, because he figures, well the guy is
dead, they will be more likely to release the documents now, and he just ... he's very cute with this, see?
He accumulates a little of this, a little of that. MKULTRA had about 139 to 150 sub-projects ... nobody
knows what they all were, or even if that is the subtotal. It's the basic mind control project of the CIA
after WWII. He has files on as many of these as he can possibly get. "I have in my possession about 80
of the 149 sub-project files which I obtained through FOIA, filing requests with the CIA on each
deceased investigator of interest." (I like that.) He says, "Neurosurgeons at Tulane, Yale and Harvard did
extensive research on brain electrode implants with intelligence funding and combined bra in implants
with large numbers of drugs including hallucinogens." So while they were telling Tim Leary and
Richard Alpert to get out of Harvard ... because a few people were taking acid and enjoying it ... there
were other people there who were inserting electrodes in people's brains and then giving them acid.
"MKULTRA alone included four sub-projects on children, one was conducted at the International
Children's Summer Camp in Maine by an unwitting investigator. The MKULTRA sub-project file in my
possession for this project states that "the CIA's interest in this research was in establishing contact with
foreign nationals of potential future operational use by the CIA. The children who served as subjects in
the project were as young as eleven years old."
"Multiple personality disorder patients in treatment throughout the United States and Canada are
describing involvement in mind control research that is much more sophisticated than MKULTRA.
Deliberate sexual abuse of children to make them more dissociative ... " and then he ends up simply by
saying, "I would be pleased to testify at length at any hearings on CIA and military mind control." Colin
Ross, M.D. Psychiatrist Richardson Texas
Here is a statement from a therapist submitted anonymously. "One client told me that they were made to
believe they had been abducted by UFO's so that if memories were retrieved, they would be discredited
by the community." I found that kind of interesting. Hmmm. Other people mentioned satanic
costumes ... CIA people putting on satanic costumes while they were doing their crazy stuff here ...
Here's John Boyd, Ph.D., Clinical Psychologist, practiced clinical psychology for 25 years, Ohio State,
University of Virginia. "I have treated three patients whose memories of childhood abuse include
detailed recall of sophisticated mind control technology being inflicted upon them by "experts" in
collusion with the patients' mentally disturbed parents. The independent reports of these individuals
contain similar information of an esoteric and intricate nature concerning mind control technology which
in my opinion could be gained only through personal experience." The press says nothing. The press
says zero about this.
Here's a woman operating under the pseudonym I believe of Chandra Walker-Michaels. "I learned how
to handle weapons, particularly how an ice-pick left a neat hole, a hole that allowed so little blood to
escape that the victim could remain in public view for hours before they would be discovered not to be
napping." "I was taken on planes to Germany and Egypt to assist Joe with arson ... to Israel, along with
messages ... to Mexico for terrorist activities. I remember a small laboratory in a partially exposed
basement of a large building I visited many times starting at age four south of Washington, D.C. At the
age of fourteen I was drugged and woke up on a stretcher, and I heard men outside my door discussing
how they had gotten me past the guards at Langley that night. At the age of fifteen Joe introduced me to
an elderly man who he referred to as "the Senator". At the Mayflower Hotel in Washington, D.C. the
portly gentleman was brought to the room adjoining ours. Our closet space was filled with photographic
equipment viewing the Senator's scene ... I refused to participate. I was severely punished."
Just a word about the media, and then we will take a break. One of the best payoffs of being a reporter
for fifteen years is that I have come to see this machine called "the media" and how it operates in a way
that I never thought was possible because I have talked to a lot of reporters, and they become the eyes,
the mouth and the ears for everybody else. Since I am now researching the Oklahoma City bombing, and
I have done a lot of research on AIDS, and now this and other topics, there is a pattern that always seems
to emerge. The pattern is that there is a cover story that emerges very quickly after something is either
revealed or happens. Very quickly a cover story comes to the fore and then anything that does not fit the
cover story is discarded. In the case of Oklahoma City, it happens to be basically that McVeigh and a
few of his friends are rednecks ... the rednecks are connected to other rednecks who belong to militias
and the militias blew up the building and that's it ... we don't w ant to know anything else ... they are all
kind of crazy and stupid ... that's the end of the story ... they rented a Ryder truck knowing it could be
traced ... they bought 5000 lbs. of ammonium nitrate knowing it could be traced ...(hey business is
suddenly picking up ... did you see that guy who suddenly came in and bought 5000 lbs. of ammonium
nitrate??? Wow. I thought business was kind of slow and then all of a sudden they came in like 15 or 20
cars and they like, loaded it up in the backs of the station wagons and they kept coming back for more
and they took it away ... I guess April is a really good planting month you know?? They have a lot of
crops in mind ...) That's the cover, right? They were that stupid, and that's all we have to know. And
McVeigh, three hours after the explosion, happens to be driving in a car with no licence, and a cop stops
him and says "I will have to cite you for driving without a licence and you will have to appear ..."
McVeigh says "No problem", t hen the cop looks at him and he is writing out the citation, he's going to
give it to him, and let him drive away. No problem, Driving without a licence. So what? Then the cop
says, "Sir, do you have something under your windbreaker there?" And McVeigh says, "I have a weapon
under my windbreaker." Pulls down the zipper, there's a 9mm Glock, and a five inch knife hanging off
his belt. He has just killed 100 people ... he's on a lonely road some place ... a cop stops him ... he's
going to let him go ... he then shows the cop his weapon ... the cop then puts his service revolver to his
head, disarms him, takes him to jail, puts him on ice for a few days until the Feds ... they work fast these
guys ... three days and they know who did it, they know what happened, they come to the jail where he
is, and they take him ... Right? By the way, I was told that initial reports placed McVeigh at Tinker Air
Force Base in Oklahoma. People who anonymously testified in here, and it has been mentioned by other
people, that some of the mind control that was done on them was done at Tinker Air Force Base.
Tinkerbell, right?
So this is the scenario that is painted by the press, see? Talk about mind control here ... now the reporters
that I talked to ... how they slip and slide with this ... once the cover story is established ... how they
manage to keep from discovering anything, or thinking about anything ... or just considering the insanity
of the cover story itself, is really something to behold. And I have been talking to a bunch of reporters
down in Oklahoma City now ... I just listen and we talk and it is all very chatty and everything ... and for
example one guy who was with the only daily in Oklahoma (The Daily Oklahoman) ... all he could talk
about was the federal boys ... the federal boys combing through the wreckage of the building ... the
federal boys were there and they did this and they told me and they said this ... and it was kind of like,
when a sportswriter covers the Yankees ... the Slugger told me this, and he told me he threw the curve
ball and he holds it this way ... had a beer with Mickey ... you know, that kind of stuff ... "the federal
boys told me" that they couldn't find any other kind of bomb in the building at all ... that's it ... what else
is there to know ... the federal boys day after day were going through the wreckage and they told him
they couldn't find anything ... this guy would have talked for three hours like this if I had let him ... and
that's how he keeps himself from figuring out what's going on and each reporter has his own little scene.
In the case of this one here, of course, now Valerie Wolf and one of her clients, they say "look we are
not sure we really want to get this exposed all the way out because we know that the False Memory
Syndrome Foundation right now has a stranglehold on the press." That's the cover story. Nobody cares
that the FMSF board is composed of these guys with CIA, mind control connections ... That's the cover
story that's laid down, and so everything else is irrelevant. That's what we have to bust -- is that cover
story -- with enough people coming forward and saying, "it's not true".


Valerie Wolf Interview
CKLN FM 88.1

Wayne Morris:
I am on the line with Valerie Wolf, a social worker and therapist in the New Orleans area, and Valerie
treats survivors of severe trauma and mind control. She also gave testimony at the Presidential Advisory
Committee on Human Radiation Experiments in Washington in 1995. Welcome to the show Valerie ... I
would like to start off by asking you about your background, and how did you become involved with the
survivors of mind control?
Valerie Wolf:
I am a clinical social worker, and I started working with survivors of trauma and sex abuse in 1973 when
I was a student at Syracuse University and basically specialized in it ... it gradually became a specialty. I
worked at Family Services of Greater New Orleans and became the contact manager for all the child
abuse contacts in 1984, and helped set up a whole sex abuse treatment program, got funding from the
state, and then when I left there, I worked for a for-profit hospital and set up an in-patient program and
picked up more clients. In June 1992, I was at the Eastern Regional Conference in Alexandria, Virginia
where the information on the mind control was released. Basically, I didn't get to the talk, but a
colleague of mine did and she had referred a client to me. When she heard this talk she immediately
found me and said, "I think this mutual client is a victim of the mind control they are talking about." I
had a couple of clients who had really worked in therapy, they were doing a lot ... but all they could do
was maintain ... even then they were in and out of the hospital. They became flooded with thoughts of
wanting to hurt themselves, or wanting to kill themselves, and had to be hospitalized in spite of
everything. I had two clients who started going downhill, and I decided to follow what I had learned
from that conference audiotape and lo and behold, both clients ended up being victims of mind control.
It just kind of went from there ...
Wayne Morris:
Was that the first time you were introduced to the information about mind control experimentation ...
was this the presentation by Corey Hammond?
Valerie Wolf:
Yes. I had no idea prior to that.
Wayne Morris:
What did you suspect was going on with your clients before finding this out?
Valerie Wolf:
I really just felt like ... I was pretty unsophisticated ... I mean I was sophisticated for the times in terms
of what I was doing ... but looking back now, five years later, I was really pretty unsophisticated.
Basically I thought we just hadn't done enough work ... I just kept coming up with different things to try.
But if you have someone who is a mind control survivor, and you try to use traditional methods, I don't
care how good you are, or what you do ... if you don't have access to the information you can only go so
far.
Wayne Morris:
And how did you specifically verify that your clients were victims of mind control after you were
exposed to this information?
Valerie Wolf:
Basically what I did was to follow what Corey Hammond had said in his presentation in terms of asking
for the core and asking about the Alphabet programs ... it was the best information at the time, but it is
not the place to start. My clients have since taught me that there is a better way to start, and it's easier,
but both clients were totally flooded when I started that way enquiring about the Alphabet programs. In
fact with one client, we got into it, she did electroshock memories and I didn't know what that was. I
hadn't seen that before plus I had never been a therapist who did a lot of memory work, and I was with
her for 24 hours because I was afraid to leave her but I didn't get the sense she needed to be hospitalized,
she just needed to finish it, and she finally did. The other client opened it up, got to that part of her
system, and then I happened to work late one night ... I was in my office doing paperwork and she
showed up at my door, and said "okay, you opened it up and unless you do something by midnight, I
have to die." (laughs) I was like, "omigod, what is it we've opened up here?" We ended up being able to
contain it. Now when I start it, I do it very, very differently and I don't get that kind of thing ... we start
with containing it, because the other, is the end of it ... for all the programs, the Alphabet stuff. If it's
there, that's the end of it ...
Wayne Morris:
By going to that at the beginning, you're saying that triggers a lot of memories ...
Valerie Wolf:
It triggered a lot of memories and they just flooded with all kinds of memories and the intensity ... it was
really hard. It was hard because it took a couple of months for me to wake up ... initially I felt
responsible, because they were saying "well you opened this up so you have to help with this ...", and
then after about three months when I was thoroughly exhausted, I basically said, "wait a minute, I am
not responsible for this" and that's when I began to get a grip and set some limits because the normal
limits of normal therapy apply, and the first three months were difficult because I didn't know what
applied and what didn't. It was almost like the rules changed ... so I just kind of put the rules back in
place in terms of limiting phone calls. I didn't have to work on weekends, I didn't have to have late
nights. They had survived all this time, and they were going to survive. The drive to survive is extremely
strong in some of these clients. I had to understand that.
Wayne Morris:
For other therapists who are possibly dealing with mind control, how is the knowledge of what the
experimentation was ... how does that explicitly help in therapy?
Valerie Wolf:
What really helps is that these clients can't really tell you stuff directly ... they talk in metaphors. Also,
the way that memories come back ... I really used the BASK model, behaviours that are a result of things
that happened in the past; affect/feelings ... people will have feelings that make absolutely no sense in
terms of what is happening in the present; sensations which are body pain or body sensations can be
memory; knowledge of what it is all about, and why you are experiencing all of this usually comes last.
Basically knowing what happened and what specifically they did ... I am always formulating the
question, "what could have happened to this person, as a child or as an adult, to make them tell me this?
What is it they are trying to tell me?" If I can get a picture, and understand they are giving me
metaphors, if I can get a picture of what it is they are trying to tell me, then we can design an
intervention together that will deal with and help them get to what the original memory is, what actually
did happen. And I can do that very non-directly. I don't have to say, "this happened to you, that
happened to you ..." I can say "what is this associated with or what does this remind you of?" "what's
going on, what do you think, visualize for me, give me a word picture of what you see inside." So I can
ask a series of questions. It's helpful to know the possibilities that go with what they are describing
because then I can make a little bit quicker ... if they tell me stuff, I know what they are talking about. If
it's an electroshock memory, there is a certain way that those feel, there are certain places in the body
where they are more likely to be. I know that we can "take the electrodes off" but I get them to tell me
that.
I was really lucky in that a client remembered all these conversations and wrote them out for me, and I
got a really clear idea of what the thought was behind the experiments, and what a lot of the experiments
were. I have clients who come from all over the country, not just New Orleans so there seem to be real
variations in regions in terms of what the focus was, in terms of the experiments. There are some
commonalities and there are things that are different.
Wayne Morris:
How did you develop your treatment methods as you worked with survivors of mind control, and
recognize that's what you were dealing with? How did that change how you approached the treatment?
Valerie Wolf:
My clients taught me. One of the things I realized from the beginning ... I know that I have a lot to learn.
That is the premise I operate from ... I know from doing the trauma work that people really know what
they need to do to heal and all you have to do is really listen through what they are saying because they
are telling you all the time what they have to do to heal so you let them take the lead. This is no
different. The mind control clients know. The other thing is that with DID (formerly Multiple
Personality Disorder) I know there is someone in the system ... I didn't know it concretely, but I sensed
it ... there was a feeling that there was a part behind the scenes directing the process and that I could trust
that part to know what it is we needed to do. I have always known that ... that people know what they
need to do to heal. That's what I started relying on again. I form a partnership so that if we design an
intervention or if a memory comes up, or something comes up, we together figure out how we are going
to deal with it. This was how I developed the ways of working with it, and then I also like to know ...
and I guess I was trained this way as a student ... to form hypotheses, to check them out, to really think
about what it was because a lot of times I will do something intuitively and then I have to think about
what it is I did, and why it didn't work or why it did work.
And after I testified in Washington, I started getting calls from therapists and clients from all over the
country, and they also ... in terms of their struggles ... would tell me what was working and what wasn't
working, what kind of therapist helped and what kind of therapist didn't ... what kind of approach helped
and what kind didn't. A lot of them were calling to find out about therapists in their region. I also learned
from that, and I was always trying to figure out what is it about this that I was doing differently from
other people, why was it working, and then finally I realized, the light bulb went off, that I was dealing
with programs as memories rather than getting lost in the complexity of the numbers and codes, the
numbers and the codes were conditioned. People were taught to respond in certain ways if they heard a
certain sequence of numbers, tones, or whatever it is ... it was done in a deep trance state so you had post
hypnotic suggestions that reinforced it ... but it's still a memory. But if you are staying with the codes
and the numbers and all the other stuff, what happens is you are really dealing with the surface level, and
you really don't get very far. I was talking to a therapist who had started about the same time I did, and I
talked to her about six months ago ... and she told me that they had gotten every single code of every
alter. I said, " ... and ..." She said "I can call out any alter I want to and talk to them ...", and I said, "well,
how is that helping this person function better or whatever ...". "oh well, ..." and she just didn't get the
concept, that what you want to do is get these kids or the parts out of where they are and either integrate
it or enter a safe place, but it isn't necessary to get the codes to do that.
Wayne Morris:
Right, So what you are saying is that your approach is not necessarily deprogramming per se in terms of
dealing with what was done to them in terms of programming ... but to disable that programming ...
Valerie Wolf:
At its roots ...
Wayne Morris:
By remembering what actually happened ...
Valerie Wolf:
Yeah, and the thing is that adheres to good therapy principles ... I have always stuck to that, partly
because once I started doing this, I couldn't find anybody else to talk to. It was really difficult. I
practiced in isolation for three years, until I went to Washington, and basically worked alone. And it was
really lonely ... luckily I have a peer group here who are very supportive of me. People here are really
used to the fact that I am always on the edge in terms of pushing the next frontier in terms of
treatment ... for example in the middle 1970's I was treating perpetrators. That was a no-no back then.
People wouldn't talk to me because I was treating perpetrators, and then in the 1980's that became a kind
of common thing and accepted. I did family therapy with perpetrators and kids and that was also a no-no
in the late 1970's, but it became part of an accepted treatment protocol in the 1980's. I have always been
in the forefront ... so I got a lot of support that way, but what was difficult was, there wasn't anybody
who understood the language or the specifics, and that was hard. On the other hand, it threw me back on
relying more on what my clients were telling me what was useful and helpful, and they all knew that
they had to do memory ... they all knew that instinctively. They knew that's what they had to do.
Wayne Morris:
So what happens ... does that constitute healing that part of the abuse by the actual, active remembering
what had happened?
Valerie Wolf:
I do not think that ... first of all, doing memories does not always mean reliving them totally. For some
clients they need to do that, because their world view is that they have to experience it and feel it, and
they are like that about everything ... they don't believe anything unless they can touch it, and taste it,
and feel it. Or, if there is so much pain, they kind of have to dive through the pain to get through. But my
view is we are looking for the knowledge, we are looking for what is it specifically that happened to
produce behaviour in the here and now, or thoughts or feelings ... By getting a knowledge base, we are
looking for information about what happened and I find that once people get that information, what
happens is they go "Oh, okay" and they don't have to do it anymore.
Wayne Morris:
So, by just the simple act of remembering, that information ...
Valerie Wolf:
And remembering how they learned to do this specific behaviour ... when they see the connection and
how they were conditioned, it's like, "I don't have to do that." Also what you want to do ... because these
people are either DID or DD (NOS) which is ego state feelings but not full-blown alters ... and they don't
come out into the body and introduce themselves, there are parts, they are differentiated, but not to the
degree say someone with full-blown DID or MPD where the parts come out and have distinct names,
and distinct identities, they come all the way out into the body and function for the person who is the
core birth personality. And then there are people who are kind of in-between and I have a peer group
now in Atlanta who are doing this kind of work, and we put our heads together ... we get information ...
in terms of trying to figure out treatment, and that's been really useful. Basically we have termed it
"fuzzy DID" -- they are not as undifferentiated as DD NOS but they are not quite DID, and it's more like
the parts blend with the core birth personality. Sometimes they may come out into the body, but only for
very brief periods of time, but they are not as well developed, and it's kind of an in-between, and that's
where most of these people are that I have seen and the experience of the therapists in Atlanta. It makes
it hard to diagnose because it's fuzzy ... they lose time ... they have some of the same symptoms, but the
switches are a lot more subtle and a lot more rapid, where someone with full-blown DID ... you know
when someone new has come into the body. It's real clear that is happening.
Wayne Morris:
How does the "fuzzy dissociation" relate to the amnesia barriers between the identities and the uses of
mind control?
Valerie Wolf:
Well basically, the way I have come to understand DID or fuzzy DID ... basically what you have is a
part that is the core birth personality -- the original personality born into the body, not a baby as was
commonly thought and it would make sense that it is not a baby. What happens is, a child which
develops the way I would say these people have under the age of five to seven, probably under the age
of five -- you have a very small child, and the easiest way I can explain it is that there is abuse in the
family so what happens is, "this person who is abusing me, I also have to love them." Little kids, under
the age of five, can't handle ambivalence really well so what they will do is actually create a part that has
the ability to take the hurt, and be hurt, and they will create a part that says "I love you" whoever it is
that ... so they can hold these two mutually incompatible thoughts and feelings at the same time. There
has to be amnesia between them, because the part that is being hurt would be too confused by having to
love this person who is hurting them and the part that has to love would be confused being hurt, so there
has to be an amnesia barrier there. And that's the purpose. As time goes on, and there is more abuse, and
it is prolonged, a child naturally creates more and more personalities and all of the personalities have a
job ... they are created for a purpose ... it's either to hold memories, or feelings because in an abusive
family or situation kids are not allowed to have feelings ... if they cry they get hurt; if they get angry
they get hurt; so they have to create parts to hold the feelings. If you are being hurt at home, you have to
create parts that will go to school and function that will deal with the outside world, and the core birth
personality therefore is always protected and allowed to grow up fairly normally. Now what will happen
is, you will be presented with somebody who looks kind of flat, who doesn't have a lot of feeling, who
seems kind of pale and passive ... the reason is that all of the things that make for character have been
split among the parts. So when she needs anger, she switches or blends, with a part. That's how all of
that develops. For some kids, it all depends on what state they don't develop fully ... for kids who have
been really severely abused at a very young age going into this, I think their personalities are more well
defined. I don't know what the difference is ... as to why some people are full-blown DID and others are
less ... and I hate to say less well developed, because they function very well. I think they do what they
need ... they go to the degree that they need to survive.
Wayne Morris:
So at the time the blending takes on between the core person and an alter, does the person have access to
the memories and experiences of both identities at that point ... what happens at that blending?
Valerie Wolf:
The blending point ... when a part blends with the core birth personality, if they have a job to do, they
will just do that job ... and the memories don't link ... although that part is acting on memories or acting
on things they were told they needed to do in order to protect the core birth personality. But as far as
giving memories, the parts know where the core birth personality is at all times, and understand their
primary function is to protect the core birth personality so they will only give their memories when the
core birth personality is ready for them. The thing with the amnesia barriers, going back to your
question, the core birth personality is protected from all this information and knowledge by amnesia
barriers ... may not even know she or he has parts ... the amnesia is to that degree and that's a protection.
By the same token, the parts inside know that the core birth personality is there.
Wayne Morris:
This whole process of dissociation seems to be more of a defense mechanism to trauma, than a so-called
disorder ...
Valerie Wolf:
Absolutely. It is the most creative coping skill that I have ever seen. It is unbelievable how well it
functions for people. I have a client who is really sick, chronically ill. Her doctor recently said to me that
he could see how DID could be really functional, because if he had all the things wrong with him that
she has, he would "be nuts ... and she copes so well". He could see the value of being able to dissociate
in order to deal with this myriad of symptoms that are hard to diagnose, or are just really uncomfortable
to deal with. It is a wonderful coping strategy. That's how I see it, and that's how I work with it.
Wayne Morris:
I just wanted to go back to the point about remembering to disable the programming ... you spoke in
your presentation about trigger words or sounds or phrases that were used to bring out the different
identities ... by the process of remembering, does that disable the triggers as well?
Valerie Wolf:
What you have with the mind control is a systematic way of trying to structure someone's mind so that
people could have total control over them. That is what we are dealing with here. They were dealing
with very young children, as young as 2 or 3 when this started, some were older, but they found that
from 2 1/1 to 3 1/2 (from what I understand) was the best age to start because their minds were much
moldable at that point. They created what survivors call The Matrix inside their head and it can take on a
lot of variations and forms -- the most common one is -- survivors talk about it as being like a Rubik's
cube -- and they started with a simple 9x9 tic-tac-toe matrix and each little square was a cell or room,
and every time an alter came out or was created through the pain, they would condition that alter to
respond to a certain word, letter or whatever and then they would have to go into their place in the
matrix and that cell had that number or whatever ... and they kept track of all of this ... so that if you
needed a part for a specific job, and they knew what they all were because they either gave the jobs or if
the child spontaneously created a job because they knew what they all were ... they would just call out
that number designation, and get that alter or that group of alters that would suit their purpose at the
time.
In the course of treatment, where I start is with safe place imagery -- the core birth personality creates a
safe place. There is a protocol for doing that, but most of the time they already have it. This is good
trauma treatment ... I do this with every single client who reports any kind of abuse -- that's where I start.
And mind control victims are no different than that ... The task is to work through the matrix ... once a
part's job is over they can either integrate or go to the safe place. They don't have to stay in there. Once
we get the information or they understand ... also that the number refers to the cell, not to them, that's
not their name ... and when they realize that (because they think it is their name but it's not, because they
often have other names) ... once they realize they don't have to stay in there any more, they end up going
to the safe place where they directly integrate. And a lot of times when they go into the safe place, they
will go there, rest a while, and then they will integrate. Your task is to clear out all the parts in the
matrix ... and all these parts were harmed in the mind control experiments. The other thing is they were
told to stay in their cells, they couldn't talk to anybody, they couldn't talk to the core birth personality,
they had to stay isolated. These kids were as busy undoing it as it was done ... a lot of them, probably
most whether they admit it or not, then created halls and tunnels, caves or rooms behind the matrix.
They learned that they could create this matrix, so why couldn't they create something else. So a lot of
times when I hear an image of a cave, a tunnel, a hall, or whatever ... I will ask "is that yours, did you
create that, or did they?" If the kid created it, then we know it is a defensive thing, it is useful and it is
there for purpose. If they did, then we know it's something we either have to bypass or deal with to get
rid of. We use that series of tunnels or whatever in the back of the matrix ... it is like a maze ... and that's
how I visualize it ... we are working through the maze to get all the kids out of the matrix and once the
matrix is empty, you can blow it up, it isn't needed any more, and then there is always more after that ...
there is more than one ... and I am not going to say how many because I am not going to be suggestive ...
but there is more than one part to it so you just keep clearing out until you get to the end of those and
then there are other memories that come and then you are done.
Wayne Morris:
That seems to be a pre-requisite to being able to heal and have a good therapy session, is creating a
physical safe place within the actual environment and also, as you were speaking, creating the emotional
and mental safe place within the client.
Valerie Wolf:
It is great containment because ... even when they say there is no safe place, because they did a lot of
stuff done around "there is no safe place" ... well there always is ... there always is. Whether they admit
it or not, there always is, because children know better. They can create something in their minds. I will
get that ... "there is no such thing as a safe place" and I will say "oh yeah? I don't believe it." And sure
enough, there will be something there, behind it, that they have constructed with barriers and walls, and
often using their pain and their methods to hide it ... so they have to go through pain to get to it and clear
out all that stuff ... again that's working with the metaphors and the images.
As far as the memory work is concerned, I have clients who come in, they've got body pain or there is
something going on, I will say, "what is that associated with, what does that remind you of, what's going
on?" and they give me a picture and they will say, "oh, they did such-and-such ..." and then they will just
describe it, they don't have to abreact it. That's not a necessary ingredient for everybody. For some it
is ... for some it is.
Wayne Morris:
Could you just explain the term "abreaction"?
Valerie Wolf:
Abreact means totally re-living what happened, with all the pain, and the confusion ... as if it happened
again. And my concern sometimes with abreaction is that you are just re-traumatizing people, because
they are re-living the same trauma. But when you add in the twist that you are looking for information
about what happened, and they are analyzing it, and looking at the information, then it is not traumatic.
If you go into it as a cathartic release, just to discharge the emotions, then I really think people do get re-
traumatized. I have a lot of people who were seen by other therapists in the eighties who are coming into
therapy again because they did all this re-living, abreactive work ... and the symptoms and the memories
are coming back because they never got the piece of the knowledge and understanding of what it is that
exactly happened to them. And when we do that piece, it gets finished. To me that's the critical piece --
the knowledge.
Wayne Morris:
In some of your clients, you are saying they don't have to abreact to go through the remembering
process, to avoid the body memories as well?
Valerie Wolf:
No they are not. They have body memories but with body memories, I will ask, "take a look and see
what's causing that?" I don't suggest ever. I just say, "what's going on, what's causing that, take a look."
And they will tell me. If it's electrodes, and they will tell you in a lot of different ways, I will just say,
"you can take those off there." One of the parts of the safe place is to develop a healing pool, because
water dissolves everything ... the reason that works ... or if a needle got stuck, or if their limbs are
dislocated ... sometimes with their permission, what I will do is pull their shoulder a little bit and if it is
"dislocated", I will "pull it out and put it back in" the socket. Sometimes I have to take off the electrodes
initially, until they learn how to do it. The reason that works is that at some point in that memory, they
had to take the electrodes off ... they couldn't leave needles in them ... they couldn't leave their shoulder
dislocated ... so at some point that did happen, and all we are doing is fast-forwarding the memory to the
end where everything was put back in place.
Wayne Morris:
After being exposed to the information about government mind control experimentation, how did you
pursue finding out more about this?
Valerie Wolf:
It's like a double-edged sword for me. When I started getting information from clients, I started sending
it to people doing research, like Alan Scheflin for verification ... because I had no idea what was going
on. I had no idea who any of these people were, and they would call me back and say, "Valerie do you
know who so-and-so is?" And I would have no clue. It turned out to be people who were involved in this
and I had absolutely no idea. Nor did my clients know. A lot of times the names would come out in a
really painful memory, but I didn't know and they didn't know. In order to do treatment, I don't need to
know who was who and what they did and all that kind of stuff. I just passed this information on to
Alan. I have not read in the area, my clients have not read in the area. I don't want to read, because I
don't want to know more than my clients do. I don't want to take a chance of cuing them or reacting to
something. With some of my newer clients I do know a lot, but my interest at this point is really in
figuring out this treatment process and really figuring out how to get these people functional. That's
where I put all my energy. As far as the details of it, I am not that interested in (I guess I need to know
some of it, especially local people) all that information because it doesn't help in terms of therapy.
Wayne Morris:
Have you pursued getting more information about the experiments themselves, what was done, the
particulars ...
Valerie Wolf:
Yes, that is more useful information to me ... to know specifically what was done, the kinds of things to
expect, techniques, etc. because that allows me to interpret the metaphors and that's what they talk about.
If my clients do know names, they are not telling me. A couple of my clients do know names, one knows
a lot ... she was marvellous in the way she made rhymes and all kinds of ways to present the
information ... she used the memory techniques they taught her to remember the information ... limericks
and rhymes, making words out of the names so she could remember. It was fantastic. But most of my
clients just want to survive day-to-day and get better and get on with their lives. They know Dr. Green --
everybody knows Dr. Green, that name comes up spontaneously. When I see clients who are mind
controlled, I don't tell them what it is. Basically what happens is I get people who have had many
therapists, or they have one therapist and they have been stuck for a long time. They have done the
family abuse, there may or may not be satanic ritual abuse, other kinds of sex ring abuse, and they are
stuck. I hear things like "I am afraid of doctors" ... or I have had clients who get stuck on a memory for a
year or two years and they keep looping around this memory but they never get to anything.
There are certain things I look for ... I begin to suspect this, start asking some really discreet questions,
and then basically if I become convinced this has happened, what I say to people is "I think something
else happened to you ... for these reasons ... these the things you have been saying ... you have been
stuck ... there has to be something else." I have a fairly decent idea of what this might be, because there
are clues. But I will say "I can't tell you ... you have to know that these are your memories and not
something that I have suggested to you. If I start telling people about all the mind control stuff, and then
they get the memories, they are going to have a question as to whether it is what I told them because
their hold on reality is tenuous sometimes, not in terms of functioning but in terms of knowing what is
real and what is not real. I just wait until it is time for the core birth personality to get the information
and it is fascinating to see however long it takes for t hat to come up and they start talking about
government-sponsored research, the CIA ... and I know that I have not told them this, and I know they
don't have access to this information because most of these people are not on the internet and if they are,
they certainly not in the mind control areas. There is not a whole lot written on this except in certain
areas. They are not likely to go to a bookstore and get a book about it ... they don't have access to this
information. When they recover or get that memory of what it really is about, they know that is their
memory and not something someone else has suggested. I will ask that too - "what have you read, what
have you read about memory, what do you know about memory from the media?" and we will talk about
it.
Wayne Morris:
Have you felt that you had had to change your approach about documenting what happens in your
therapy sessions because of groups like the False Memory Syndrome Foundation?
Valerie Wolf:
Yes and no. I think I have to be more careful -- so rather than a client-centered process and talking about
what the client is doing, I have to add more about what I am doing now. It used to be that notes reflected
what the clients were saying and what the clients were doing, and the progress they were making, etc.
etc. Now it has shifted to where I have to write about what I am doing as a therapist. I think that is a
major difference. I don't think it's all that bad ...
Wayne Morris:
How do you go about documenting this ... through therapy notes? Have you ever felt required to
videotape a therapy session for any reason?
Valerie Wolf:
Yes, documenting through notes. I have thought about videotaping a session, and I have audiotaped
sessions for clients who have been accessed. That was very very useful because it made me really
conscious of what I was saying and doing. It was useful from that standpoint. But as far as admissibility
or if I ever got sued and it went to court -- if someone is doing memory (and this is one of the clients
who was abreacting and doing a great job) you hear "stop, please don't" on the tape -- how do they know
it's a memory and it isn't something I am doing? Do you understand what I am saying? You can't
distinguish ...
The other thing is ... and I have talked to a number of people about it ... apparently in the court cases that
have come up, they have twisted stuff on the tape that was totally innocent so basically my feeling is you
give them more ammunition not less. This is not a surgical process where you know where you are
going to cut, you know what you are going to do, and how much. There is a lot of human interaction that
goes on, and they could pick at anything. I just don't think it really matters whether you videotape or
audiotape. I did find it useful to do the audiotape just to make me conscious of what it was I was doing
in the session.
Wayne Morris:
How do you feel about groups like the FMSF with regard to their approach to this recovered memory
debate?
Valerie Wolf:
My real honest to goodness feeling is that they have done us a favour. They brought up some issues that
were real issues we needed to take a look at. I think people like myself -- when the McMartin pre-school
ritual abuse case in California first came up -- I was at a conference and met all the people and heard the
criticisms of Kee McFarlane. She did interviews according to what we did at that time. The prosecutors
did not ask her to do forensic interviews, they did not train her in how to do that. She did essentially
what we were doing, and did a good job. But essentially she got crucified. Lightbulbs went off for those
of us doing the work at that time, who had some experience. We began to realize they were right. I
began adjusting the way I was doing things at that point -- in 1984 -- being more non-direct, more non-
leading is actually better therapy. I used to do talks about sex abuse, child abuse, testimony. One of the
facts I came across in 1990 was that we were operating on memory re search that had been done in 1911
-- there really hadn't been a whole lot of research on trauma memory. I think they pointed out a gap in
our knowledge. On the other hand I think the FMSF is a backlash, and it was inevitable. In the 1980's we
really had our way in terms of child abuse and sex abuse and I think a backlash was inevitable. People
who have a lot of experience, who have seen the cyclical nature of this understand that this is going to
happen. Part of the problem now is that we have really cleaned up our act -- I do workshops and training
and I can hear more and more therapists becoming more careful -- becoming better therapists, becoming
non-leading -- but they are still riding the same horse, they are still accusing the same way and it makes
me wonder if there is another agenda here because we are cleaning up our act ...
Wayne Morris:
And they (FMSF) are not acknowleding that ...
Valerie Wolf:
No. They are saying "this research means nothing" ... "it is irrelevant". It is totally relevant. A lot of the
research is confirming what it is we, as therapists, have known and what we have been saying.
Wayne Morris:
So you feel their early criticisms have in a general sense improved the quality of therapy ...
Valerie Wolf:
Yes I do.
Wayne Morris:
How do you think FMSF has affected the access to therapy for survivors?
Valerie Wolf:
Unfortunately there are a lot of therapists who are very scared, have dropped out, don't want to do this
kind of treatment any more, and I think that's sad. But I can understand it. I get scared sometimes. I have
had two people who came to me by legitimate referral sources who all of a sudden, within a couple of
weeks, were coming in for anxiety, depression, disorganization, that kind of stuff ... within a couple of
weeks all of a sudden I am getting all of these questions about multiple personality disorder, and it was
sort of similar for both ... all of these questions about MPD, and do you think maybe I have that?
Bringing me in pictures, trying to trip me up in terms of interpreting the pictures ... I see the green
triangle within the pictures. But that's unusual. People do not come in questioning. Usually they are
hiding everything from you, it takes a year or two to even understand there is something there you need
to be thinking about. To come in within a couple of weeks and push and push and push ... After a couple
of weeks, with both of them, I just asked "all right who do you have to talk to when you leave here?" In
one case it was her father, and in the other case it was her uncle. Both these people recognized my name
and they had instructions to get me to diagnose them, and to do that, and do this, etc. They were looking
for a lawsuit. That's scary. I am a pretty trusting soul ... that's scary. Basically what I had to do was
finish up the surface work they came in for, because that was my therapy contract with them, but in
terms of doing any kind of deeper work in terms of abuse or anything else, it just wasn't safe for them, or
for me. They agreed with that, and we terminated therapy. I never know when someone walks in my
office. And other therapists have reported the same stuff. I never know. It's a risk every time I take a new
client. And that's terrible. I also know some of my client have been accessed at times by their former
perpetrators, and that is really scary too because there have been real attempts to get them to turn on me,
convinced them that I have abused them, that I don't care or this or that ... I can tell by their behaviour if
they have been accessed because they become really angry with me, they disconnect, and I haven't done
anything.
Wayne Morris:
I have read of survivor accounts of being programmed initially to throw the therapist off ...
Valerie Wolf:
But regular "therapist" programming (if you can call it that ...) that was put in place a long time ago is
easy to deal with once you know what it is. I do not look for this. It upsets me a lot when I realize this is
what I am dealing with. I have a colleague who I talk to who has followed my journey here, and I will
talk to him about a client, and he will say, "you know Valerie, you are talking about this person just how
you talk when you don't want to deal with the fact that they are mind controlled ..." It upsets me when I
find another mind controlled person. I would much rather just deal with normal, regular ... because of
the pain involved. It is so hard to know that here is somebody else ...
Wayne Morris:
How many mind controlled survivors have you dealt with over the years?
Valerie Wolf:
I deliberately haven't counted, deliberately don't know how many I have in my caseload right now,
because what has happened in the past is -- when they have accessed clients, I have known and basically
they start trying to figure out who they are and if they know a number they can start trying to figure out
who they are and I don't want them to know. I can think of people I have treated in the past before I
knew this ... they were probably mind controlled and I had no idea. I deliberately don't know the answer
to that question. I am in contact with a lot of people from across the country who call me, colleagues
who consult with me about clients who are mind controlled. I do workshops. I have come into contact
with a lot ... probably hundreds of people in terms of direct treatment.
Wayne Morris:
Just to get back to the recovered memory debate, how prevalent currently do you think false memory
implantation by the therapist is going on?
Valerie Wolf:
I have come across in clients several examples of really bad therapy. I treat parents as well as survivors.
That has been really important for me to do ... to understand the offenders or non-offending parent ...
because it really is a family problem. I really needed to know how perpetrators think in order to better
serve survivors. I have treated several people where I think the therapist was pushing what wasn't there.
Again by listening through what the therapist was saying the client was saying, and listening to what the
parent(s) were saying ... when the therapist says to me "the client isn't sure" and I will say "well, you
seem certain, what are you basing it on?" and she will say "she has all these dreams." Dreams don't make
for memories, dreams are symbolic. That's one scenario I have run into a couple of times. Another
scenario I have run into with mind controlled people is where people who have been ritually abused and
they don't know about the mind control or think they have only been ritually abused, often tend to go to
Christian counsellors. Sometimes these therapists really get into their own agendas and they are very
suggestible. One woman came to me and her therapist said to me that she had basically seen her for five
years, and basically what she would do for the last three was have the client sit in the chair, close her
eyes, and the therapist would say, "think of the snake, imagine the snake or think about this ... get an
image of Satan" and she did a lot of damage, a lot of damage. When this client finally got out of therapy
with her because she realized and was referred to me, a lot of our early work together was in separating
out what was suggested by this therapist and what was real true memory. I have discovered with several
clients like this, they do know the difference between what is planted and suggested and what is real if
you give them the chance to distinguish. They do know what is real. Clinically that is m y experience. In
the mind control stuff, ther e was a lot of research, and a lot of attempts to plant false memories. There,
they do know the difference.
Wayne Morris:
I would just to shift the topic a bit. You gave testimony at the Human Radiation Hearings in 1995.
President Clinton struck an Advisory Committee to look into the radiation experiments done on humans.
How did you become involved in that?
Valerie Wolf:
There was a client in New Mexico and they had radiation hearings in her area, and she went and
requested to testify because she remembered both radiation and mind control experiences. The man who
was setting up the hearings, Wally Cummings, became interested because it appeared there was some
cross-over between the radiation and the mind control subjects. U.S. News and World Report (January
24, 1994) published an article entitled "Cold War Guinea Pigs: The government's secret experiments
using radiation, mind control, chemicals and drugs on its citizens". Wally Cummings became interested
in some of the potential overlap so he started making inquiries about people to testify and bring this
information before the Committee. They were also looking for documentation to do with radiation, and
my name came up and my two clients, because I had been sending material to researchers and trying to
verify or validate what my clients were saying, and I had done it in a very careful, meticulous way. He
called and asked if I would do it, and invited my two clients. I talked to them and they both agreed. This
was two weeks before the Hearings. At that time I was taking my son to see colleges. I was on the road,
I was on vacation. What I decided to do was rather than just go and testify with these two clients, in
addition I would send written testimony to the Hearings because we were allowed to do this. I asked if
people would send me a statement from either therapists, clients, to back up what we were talking about.
Things poured in. This is now a week and a half before we left. The things just poured in -- faxes and
mail. I literally almost didn't sleep for a week because I had to make copies of everything. One of the
things I had to be careful about was to eliminate people's names because it is all on the fax ... I didn't
want their names or numbers going out because I knew it was going to be public record. I assembled
about twenty statements and sent it with our written testimony. We were allowed to do written
statements although we could only talk for five minutes, and I wrote something, Colin Ross wrote
something , Alan Scheflin wrote something backing us up and we sent it all on to the Radiation
Commission. We went to Washington and testified. People still send me stuff but I am not doing
anything with it, I am not doing research. It never really got erased from the internet that I really didn't
need stuff any more.
Wayne Morris:
Can you give us a sense of the committee members' response at the time of giving testimony?
Valerie Wolf:
It was interesting. We really grabbed them. I started, gave the overview, made some of the connections,
and I am used to public speaking. As I started to speak, there was a member of the commission who
turned to his neighbour and said, "what is this doing here?" Not loudly. It wasn't, "What is this?" ... it
was "What is this doing here?" I got mad. I didn't want him disrupting us so I just projected ... and his
neighbour shushed him because she wanted to hear us and then Claudia and Chris testified and did a
really great job ... people were very moved.
The main thrust of the question was ... I think there was some skepticism. I know from feedback later
that some people believed us, some people were very skeptical, but the main point made by the guy who
asked most of the questions was, 'there has to be documentation of this, you are not going to get
anywhere without documentation', which I knew. We were just at the beginning of the process. In that
moment, they believed, I think, and then after they had time to reflect ... the reality was, 'this is not a
hearing about mind control'. We were given a lot of time. Half an hour is a lot of time. Most people got
two or three minutes to speak, or five minutes at the most. We were told to expect this by the ACHRE
people ... they gave us a lot of time. They followed up on everything that we told them. Then what
happened was that the survivors across the country, as the word got out, deluged them with phone calls
and letters, and it was that follow-up that made it believable. We broke the ice, broke the silence, and
gave them the overview.
The other thing that was amazing was when we came down from testifying, and went back to our seats,
we were mobbed by the radiation people -- coming up and saying things like 'you knew Dr. Green? I
knew Dr. Green. Wasn't he a bastard?' or 'now I know what Dr. Green did to me', 'now I know what my
loved one (because people were representing those who had died) was saying'. It turned out that the
overlap between the mind control and the radiation -- I mean we had been looking at the radiation and
people being sick in the mind control population -- it turned out that there was also mind control in the
radiation population. That overlap was really interesting. But I think it was the back-up support from all
the people, all the survivors in the country that really pushed it -- then they (ACHRE) put everything we
asked for and recommended in the final report of the Radiation Committee -- to reveal and make public
all human experimentation documents, there will be a suspicion, enquiries, etc. etc. unt il that is done.
And that was really one of the things we were trying to do.
Wayne Morris:
Did you find out what the response was of the U.S. government to the Advisory Committee after the
final report with regard to the mind control? Most of our listeners realize that President Clinton did give
a public apology to the radiation victims and some compensation to some of of the victims -- but
specifically to the mind control victims ...
Valerie Wolf:
It wasn't part of their 'charge' so it wouldn't have been appropriate for them to do that ... they made
recommendations in the final report. The other thing that happened after we testified is that the ACHRE
people -- who are the citizen committee members -- there is always a citizens committee that arranges
for the witnesses, oversees the process, and makes sure the information gets put before the Commission
-- the head of it, Cooper Brown, met with me and said 'you have to get a hearing' and he gave me the
whole blueprint of how they got a hearing. I was writing furiously and got the whole blueprint of how to
get a hearing and I have written that up and given it out at the conference in Dallas a year ago, and again
this year, and I think it has been published on the internet -- and then the ACHES-MC -- the advocacy
group for the mind control survivors is following that blueprint.
Wayne Morris:
ACHES-MC and other survivors are calling for the U.S. and Canadian governments to open
investigations into the mind control experimentation. What further needs to happen to force the
governments to open this kind of Commission of inquiry?
Valerie Wolf:
I have no idea. I think there needs to be the grassroots level of support and more and more people
writing, and talking because I think that's what happened with the radiation commission. So many
people wrote to them, and called them, and backed us up that they really had to take it seriously and I
think that is probably the thing here -- we need to write, and keep writing, and keep advocating and be
appropriate and just keep going and going and going. The other thing is that while it would be really
nice to get a hearing tomorrow, it isn't a bad thing that this is taking time because we need people healed
who are not going to be triggered, because they are going to be trying to trigger people left and right if
they go testify. We need time for people to heal before we go testify. I know that what Chris and Claudia
did was extremely courageous because they were having constant flashbacks the whole time we went to
Washington, before and after testifying. It was extremely painful and difficult f or them to do that.
Extremely. Their courage was just astounding, but I think if we can get people through the process and
free and healed, we will present a much better case.
Wayne Morris:
How do you think the public is understanding these issues on mind control? We have been seeing the U.
S. government coming forward and apologizing for experimenting on humans, as in the Tuskagee
experiments and radiation experiments ... so I think there is a sense of distrust of the government in the
sense that, 'yes, this is possible'. What is your sense of the public understanding of the issues around this,
it does seem to take a bit to understand everything.
Valerie Wolf:
Actually I have been kind of surprised ... I have a normal life. I come into contact with people and
sometimes what I do comes up and some people are skeptical. But you know what? Most people believe
it without any trouble, without any doubt. These are educated people. Sometimes they are skeptical, but
that's good ... you will have a discussion about it, but a lot of times what I get is, 'I can believe that
happened' and sometimes, and this blows my mind, if it comes up in a social situation or whatever ... my
husband will say something, or I will say something, I am astounded at how many people can name the
people locally here that were involved in it, and there is some degree of knowledge -- professionals. It
was not that big a secret. I am absolutely astounded. I have received validation and verification from
people in the community because instantly there is one name -- and I am not going to talk names today
-- a name comes to mind because this was local, and it doesn't pertain. That kind of blows me away ... I
met a psychologist at a party a couple of years ago, and was talking to him a little bit, and I kind of test
people, to see their tolerance for this ... He said, 'oh yeah, I interviewed as a psychologist for the CIA in
1975 or something and I talked to so-and-so and he told me all about it' -- it was one of the key people
who has been named by the clients. I am astounded by the people in the professional community who
have this knowledge. I think it has been on TV a lot -- X-Files -- I always wondered how the X-Files got
their facts so accurately, because they have talked about MKULTRA and they have shown mind control,
and they do a really good job, and a couple of weeks ago I got called by them, which was really exciting,
for some background information. They do research on their shows. They are not just making this up.
There are other places too in the media ... I think people see it more than we realize, and yeah, they be
lieve it.
Wayne Morris:
It is interesting -- I haven't seen the X-Files too much -- they do tend to put a lot of surface information,
but they do also put their own spin on the reasons for why this is happening, who is responsible.
Valerie Wolf:
Yeah, they do, but this time what they were looking for was the specific people, I don't know when it is
coming up ... It was neat. My son, who is in college, said to me "Oh good ... now I have something to
brag to my friends about" -- my stock with him went way up, because we are both real big fans of the X-
Files.
Wayne Morris:
After the experience of giving testimony and being contacted by other therapists and survivors after the
hearings, what is your sense of how prevalent mind control is?
Valerie Wolf:
I don't know. I really don't know. Therapists who work with trauma like myself, have studied it, and
thought about it -- I think we probably have clients like that. I don't know how many have been
identified. My feeling is that it is possibly tens of thousands ... it is really hard to say how many.
Wayne Morris:
What would your advice be to other therapists who may be coming across accounts of mind control
experimentation? What kind of information and resources exist? You mention that you have been doing
workshops. Have other therapists been doing this?
Valerie Wolf:
Basically right now I think it is mostly word of mouth ... I think we have been reluctant to write about it.
I have a hard time. I have a handle on it now ... I look at writing some stuff (when I have time). There is
really not much published about this that is mainstream, accessible. Most of it is word of mouth at this
point.
Wayne Morris:
I would like to talk about how prevalent are memories of ritual abuse and child sexual abuse in the
clients that have undergone mind control experimentation ...
Valerie Wolf:
They all report sexual, physical and emotional abuse and the systematic -- the words are kind of the
same in terms of the messages they are given about themselves -- they are "worthless" "will never be a
success" -- really downing yourself, really taking away their control. I have clients with no memories of
ritual abuse. I have clients with memories of ritual abuse that is clinical and laboratory based. I think
ritual abuse is basically, most of the time, sex rings that get together and use costumes to terrify kids and
keep them under control. Satan is a good image because of religion. Here they use mardi gras costumes
(in New Orleans) -- clients have talked about that. Basically they are groups of pedophiles engaged in
child prostitution and sometimes you will hear about child pornography. Some of it is organized crime
involved with child pornography and child prostitution, and some of it is groups of pedophiles, men and
women, who get together and do whatever they want with kids and I thi nk the satanic imagery
heightens the excitement for them. I think there may be true satanic cults but I think the thing that has
always been missing for me is how it shows up in your daily life. If you are a practicising satanist, I
think it is something that I think would show up in your daily life or show up in rituals or whatever --
but it doesn't -- so that kind of leads me to believe it is for another purpose which is to terrify kids and
keep them under control. That's how I see ritual abuse.
I think what happened was Dr. Green started screening kids -- apparently there were several criteria for
selecting kids for the project -- one was that they had to already have been traumatized somewhat so
they had the ability to dissociate; another was they had to have good memories; another was they had to
be really intelligent. As time went on, he looked for compliance traits because there were some real
rebellious ones that fought him. When you look at that, at some point you come across the fact that some
of these kids were already being abused in sex rings. One of the things they wanted to do was make kids
forget, have amnesia for stuff that was happening to them. There are a number of ways of doing that.
Trauma is the best way of inducing amnesia for an event. What Dr. Green would do is order a trauma --
and if they had a sex ring lurking in the background, he would just send them back to be ritually abused
again and that would create a ritual abuse memory and then he would do his thing, and then send them
back again -- Claudia describes it like a sandwich: you have a trauma, ritual abuse, back to the
laboratory and Green does his nasty little thing and then you have another trauma after and they were
spaced in certain ways in order to maximize the dissociative effect and maximize the amnesia for what
Green was doing. So they were allowed to remember the ritual abuse, but that was supposed to keep
therapists busy, busy, busy for a long time and you were never, ever supposed to get to the mind control
stuff. And all my clients have told me this.
Another way it happened was if there was not a sex ring, or satanic cult or whatever in the background
readily available, then I think Green produced the same kind of effect in the laboratory and introduced
images of satan, people in costumes, did the same kinds of ritual stuff -- but you get more of a sense that
it is not as full, it is not as much abuse, and there isn't as much ceremony or learning that takes place like
it does in ritual abuse. I have clients that report either.
Wayne Morris:
How much do you think could be real?
Valerie Wolf:
I think some of it is real. I mean it is all "real" in the sense in which the child experiences. But in the
sense of fake scenes or doing little plays to convince them of things ... I think there was a lot of that. As
people start to remember, a lot of times they will have double memories. They will have a memory of
what actually took place and then a memory of what they were led to believe took place. Basically all I
have to do once someone tells me something -- I will just ask, "is there anything else?" until they tell me
no there is nothing else, until I am sure. You find these double memories or tricks. For example, all the
child murders that you hear about -- a lot of times what I find is you have a child who is terrified, who is
abused, who is dissociating in a trance like state, who is drugged, and they witness something, and they
think a child got murdered, and they did it. And they did it in all kinds of ways. For example, one of my
clients woke up with blood all over her hands and she would see this thing on the table and she was told
it was the baby and she stabbed it to death and stabbed it so hard it has no character. Well, basically I
said, 'what is really on the table?' It was either roast or liver or sometimes they would have a real baby
but what I will ask then, 'is there a smell in the room?' And they will think about for a minute, and say,
'oh - it's formaldehyde.' These are doctors who have access to research specimens preserved .. a baby
who died at birth, deformed or whatever. If you get the formaldehyde smell, you know that this corpse
came from a hospital. Or they would show them a child, distract their attention, and substitute a doll.
That's why a lot of times you will hear the victim, especially in the 50's, 60's and into the 70's, talk about
the child having blonde hair and blue eyes. Dolls at that time were mostly blonde with blue eyes.
Wayne Morris:
Why would they be going to these lengths in experimenting -- what uses were they putting mind control
to?
Valerie Wolf:
You have to think about post World War II and the Cold War. From what I understand, a lot of it was
panic about the Russians or someone else gaining an edge and being able to infiltrate America and gain
control of the citizens or the military or whatever. I think they were very taken off guard about what
happened to prisoners in Japan, and the Asians, because they had perfected brainwashing techniques on
American prisoners. The Korean War spurred it, and that became more public. I think we were looking
to see if there were uses in terms of creating spies and what is the perfect spy ... it is someone with DID
whose core birth personality goes on vacation some place, a part comes out, makes contact. Another part
comes out and makes the meeting, another part comes out -- each part has amnesia for the others -- it is
like a chain. Each one has a piece of the puzzle but nobody puts it all together. They go and they are
sexual, or they assassinate, and they do whatever they are supposed to do. Anot her part records
everything that goes on and remembers it. Another part gets them out of there, and then the core birth
personality comes back to the vacation. If he or she gets caught, and is interrogated, all the amnesia
barriers are in place plus they have been conditioned to withstand a lot of pain. They won't give any
information, and that is in effect, the perfect spy or the perfect operative. I have also heard of other
people being trained in computer technology or physics ... and then being called on ... taken to a place to
do work and they don't have to pay for it. I have heard of clients going on a plane somewhere, they get
called, they go somewhere and do something, and then they come back. I think they put a lot of money
into these people and I would think they are using them still.
Wayne Morris:
If what survivors of mind control are saying is true, and we seem to be living in times when the political
elites in government and the military seem to have access to mind control technology and have so for
many decades, and we have heard stories in the interview with Claudia Mullen about how she was used
to blackmail other government officials, military officials, to coerce them to toe the line -- what other
dangers do you see to society if what these survivors are saying is true?
Valerie Wolf:
This is like a cancer. This evil is like a cancer in our society, they really poison things. Just to think that
this really exists and that it continues. I know I have talked to some reporters and they know about the
shadow government that is really running things behind the scenes -- that the elected, public officials
have no idea it exists, or if they do, they are powerless to do anything about it. That is really scary. How
much control is afforded to people who were not formally given it, no one elected them. The fact that
morally or ethically, if, as a society, if we turn a blind eye to the people being abused, if we don't care, if
we numb out -- then I think we are headed for disaster because the kind of predication of developing a
democracy or Christian or JudeoChristian values where you care about your neighbour -- and if people
stop caring because they numb out, then I think we are in for bad troubles ... all kinds of atrocities can
happen.
Wayne Morris:
I wanted to ask you also about how the popular media and icons and imagery are being used in the mind
control programming? What is your experience with that?
Valerie Wolf:
Well, it seems to me that there is a lot more in the last five years. My clients are pointing out to me
things that are deliberately triggering. (Green was brilliant.) How much of that was planned and that it
has always been there and is becoming more prevalent, or how much of it is being planted into the
media, I don't know. But it seems to me that there is a whole desensitization of the American and
Canadian public in terms of satanic imagery, in terms of things that we would consider evil or bad --
there is this whole desensitization process going on in terms of increased violence in the media,
increased images of satanism, symbols, just being desensitized to abuse, desensitized to violence, sex --
there seems to be a lot going on in terms of that and I think people's tolerance for this kind of stuff is
greater than it used to be. I wonder how much of this is also aimed at survivors in terms of triggering
them so they will be triggered into killing themselves or hurting themselves, getting put in hospitals so
they won't talk, because people are beginning to remember now. There are people who have always
remembered, but have never been able to talk about it. They are beginning to be able to talk about
because the therapeutic community is beginning to understand more, so now they can talk more because
we are not going to view them as crazy if they start talking. It is pretty bizarre. My clients will say that
this is really bizarre, and I will agree with that. It is. This is really bizarre stuff. Unfortunately everything
I get back from the researchers in terms of verification is that bizarre as it is, it is true. There is a lot of
truth to what they are saying.
Wayne Morris:
These are researchers like Alan Scheflin who have spent years getting source CIA documents through
Freedom of Information ....?
Valerie Wolf:
Exactly. He said to me one time that he had been doing this research for fifteen or twenty years, and he
could never find a victim. He never dreamed the victims were children.
That concludes our interview with Valerie Wolf. Stay tuned next week as we continue our series on
Mind Control here on the International Connection, CKLN 88.l.


Jeanette Westbrook, MSW
Presentation and Interview
Contents
Introduction
Presentation
Jeanette's Song
Interview
Introduction

Wayne Morris:
Good morning, and welcome to another International Connection. Today we are going to listen to a
presentation given by Jeanette Westbrook, MSW entitled "Issues Regarding Prosecuting for Adult
Survivors of Ritual Abuse". Jeanette is a social worker, and a ritual abuse survivor who brought legal
charges against her father, alleging that he had brutally tortured her as a child and teenager. Her father
was a Boy Scout leader, church Deacon, a master Mason, and Executive Director of the National Board
of Boiler and Pressure Vessels Inspectors in the United States. In this position, he was responsible for
overseeing inspections of all nuclear power plants in the USA. Jeanette's father attempted to plea bargain
in pleading guilty to a misdemeanor of facilitating child sexual abuse and an award of $50,000 to
Jeanette and she refused. Just as she was extraditing her father from Ohio back to Kentucky to face trial,
he died suddenly.
In this presentation she describes the steps and many pitfalls in preparation to prosecuting a perpetrator
of this abuse. You are listening to CKLN, the radio series on Mind Control on 88.1
Contents
Presentation

Beth Vagra: Believe the Children Conference, Chicago (April 1997)
While Jeanette is getting her materials ready, I am just going to introduce her. I have known Jeanette
Westbrook for several years now. She has been a friend, and a supporter of Believe the Children and I
can assure you that Jeanette always has something interesting to talk about so this should be a very
exhilirating and informational presentation. Jeanette is a social worker in Louisville, Kentucky and she
has presented workshops on sexual abuse, ritual abuse and has taught classes for law enforcement
officers. She is a regular guest instructor at Indiana State University where she does training with
Professor Hal Pepinsky who is also speaking at the conference tomorrow. Today Jeanette is going to
share information about how she pursued the criminal prosecution of one of her perpetrators, a process
that took three years and I would add, a lot of courage and persistence. It is an honour to present Jeanette
Westbrook.
Jeanette Westbrook:
Thank you Beth, and thank you for having me here. It's an honour and privilege to be speaking here at
Believe the Children. Today I am going to talk about an issue that isn't talked about very often, because
mainly it is discouraged and that is prosecuting a perpetrator.
There are a lot of reasons, pro and con, for considering going forward with a prosecution against a
perpetrator. The perpetrator that I chose to prosecute was my father who I considered my Number 1
main perpetrator, although there were many, many more perpetrators but because he was my father, and
had the ultimate responsibility for protecting, nurturing, loving me ... and did not do so ... I decided I
would pursue him. But let me tell you, it never entered my mind, even after I started remembering more
and more details, it never entered my mind to pursue prosecution until I was informed and realized that
he had never stopped offending -- that there were other victims and he would continue to victimize, rape
and torture, until the day that he died.
When I first started entering therapy in 1985, and this was a couple of years after I got married at the age
of 28, the way I got my memories and flashbacks was simply sitting on the bed one day, and my
husband put his hand on my knee. Right then and there I started switching and I literally tore up the
room. I knew something was terribly wrong and I needed to figure out what was going on. In my mind, I
always carried some memory of the incest, but not the whole full story. It was a process of remembering,
not remembering, repression, denial, recanting, remembering. The process that Dr. Whitfield talked
about earlier this morning ...
After I started therapy, I entered school, my major was social work and I had a previous history of
advocacy within my community. I was a neighbourhood leader, before that I had gone to real estate
school -- I was going to be a real estate person, but I couldn't lie well enough (laughter) and the interest
rates were 17%, I sold four houses in one year. I decided I couldn't overlook the cracks in the basement
and tell people I couldn't see them ... it sounded too much like my abuse. In entering the School of
Social Work, I came to the conclusion how could I face victims every day, every week, year in and year
out, and tell them, "report the crime, do something, empower yourself, go forward with your life" with
me not having done the same. How could I tell other people to protect their children and prosecute,
when I had not done so myself?
We are going to get to the criminal justice system here, and I wish I had entitled my workshop "The
Criminal Justice Crapshoot" because my friends, that's exactly what it is. You have to know what you
are up against, and this is what we are all up against.
So, you were incested ... big deal ... didn't do anything to you ... look at you. You look okay, you've got
your college education, you look nice, you are well spoken, no problem ... get on with your life ... But it
was a big deal to me, because I wasn't functioning. I began searching out topics, I began reading
everything I could get my hands on. My therapist at the time (when I entered therapy in 1985) -- after
Dr. Cornelia Wilbur, who was Sybil's psychiatrist, diagnosed me in Lexington, Kentucky. She referred
me to Dr. Kanivtiz who said he wasn't taking any more multiple patients and he referred me on to
another person who said he wasn't taking any more patients, but he referred me to a therapist who hadn't
treated a ritual abuse survivor, had never treated anyone with MPD, now called DID (they DID it to us
again ...). After spending years with this therapist who really didn't know what he was doing, but I will
tell you one thing that he did do -- which was trigger a lot of memories in me because he was intoxicated
during my therapy. I would go into therapy and the smell of the alcohol would cause switch-o-rama and
I would come out not in very good shape to tell you the truth. During this whole process as I entered a
support group (Parents United and the Adults Molested as Children program) -- I became stronger and
decided, yes I wanted to pursue prosecution. I began looking for information. I finally came across
another survivor from Colorado who was working with a former FBI agent and she imparted the
information to me on how to pursue a prosecution. I guarantee you, had I not received this information
from another survivor, I would not have known what to do, because like many folks out here, if you
don't have an understanding on how to get through the crapshoot, you are not going to go anywhere.
But I do want to let you know about the dynamics that are unique to my case as to why I pursued ... one
of which is I have no children. One of my worst fears was that if I had children, my abusers would get
access to my children. That is main way abusers and cults control victims throughout their lives --
through their children. That is one unique thing -- I didn't have to worry about that. I also had a very
supportive husband who was behind me all the way. My husband, Andrew, is one of 13 children and this
is an example of the kind of support you need. One time when I was hospitalized because of massive
flashbacks, my husband came into the hospital late at night and said "I am taking my wife out of here
before you kill her." The psychiatrist insisted that my husband wait until he arrived at the hospital. We
had the wonderful "exit interview". The psychiatrist said to my husband "how can you stand being
married to a woman like this, all of these personalities?" To which my husband responds, the all-time
best line, which is, "you don't know what the hell you are talking about ... I am one of 13 children and I
am used to living with a lot of people." (lots of laughter) We left. We did not pay. That was $115 for the
"exit interview" and we did not pay. This is the kind of support that is necessary: having a good solid
support group, solid friends, good solid relationship.
My next step was to determine who, and what I mean by who is which police detective was going to get
assigned to my case, and my friends, in order to pursue these cases, you must investigate the police
officer who is going to investigate your case. I am sorry but the dichotomy of good cop vs. bad cop is
real, and you must do a background check on your police officer. I found out by searching and asking
questions, especially child protective workers, "who is the good cop, who is the bad cop?" The police
detective whom I approached, who was going to get my case, had worked in child protective services for
a number of years before he became a cop. I wasn't going to have to convince him that child abuse
existed. He had been there and done that. He was now a police detective in the crimes against children
unit in Louisville, Kentucky. I approached him myself. Before I approached my detective, before any of
you approach a detective (and this is important: even if you cannot prosecute yourself, take this
information and give it to any survivors you might come across who are in a position to prosecute) this
is what you are going to need to gather for your case, or what I suggest you gather for your case.
Because guess what folks? There is no police detective anywhere who has the time to investigate these
cases the way they need to be investigated. Right from the start, my police detective knew what he was
facing. He knew it was a ritual abuse case. But does Kentucky have a ritual abuse statute? No. Don't
mention it. Why mention it? If there is no existing statute in your state, there is no way that charges can
be brought in a ritual abuse case. Right away, I want to approach my police detective with "rape". There
are different degrees of rape -- rape by force, which I had; penetration, which I had. This is first degree
rape. So that's what we are going to file under.
Before finding a police detective, take in hand if you can, this kind of information: your medical records,
your school records. I was able to go all the way back and find my elementary school records. Gee,
guess what I found there? I failed the first grade, repeated first grade. Did the second grade, at the end of
second grade they tested my IQ and it was only 80 points. Kind of an indicator. Church or religious
records. Criminal records. Psychiatric records. Marriage records and divorce records. Don't apply these
records just to yourself. Get these records pertaining to your perpetrator also. Not just yourself, but your
perpetrator. Kind of interesting. When I looked up the divorce records (when my father divorced my
mother) I had already told my police officer about being used in child pornography. In my child's mind I
had just seen my father using a brownie camera -- you all remember the old brownie, little boxes? That's
what I remember my father taking pictures of me with -- but I also remember the bright lights being used
in the basement to photograph pornography, but I didn't want to deal with it and I didn't want to
remember it. Lo and behold, in the divorce records, my father asked for all of the photographic
equipment, along with multiple pieces of property, money, etc. I don't think he had his attorney ask for
the brownie camera.
Psychiatric records. Folks, they are going to use it, might as well be upfront with the police detective.
They will use it. That's both sides. And while we are talking about sides here, when you approach the
police detective here, who is actually an arm of the district attorney, in some jurisdictions called the D.
A., in some the State's Attorney, in my state called The Commonwealth Attorney. The State's Attorney
or the Commonwealth Attorney is interested in you, the victim for one reason and one reason only. You
are the witness for the prosecution. To that D.A. you are not really looked at as the victim. He is going to
use you as a witness to prove his case which the state is bringing against the perpetrator. Also when you
approach your police detective, there is some corroborative evidence you can obtain and by being able to
do a lot of this -- I am talking about years down the pike in recovery -- if you are not comfortable talking
to your relatives and confronting, you are probably not going to be able to get through the criminal
justice system period. In getting through the criminal justice system, there are two systems in which you
can go through. One is the civil court, and the other is the criminal court. The difference between the
two ... For instance, in the state of Kentucky, the reason I was able to pursue a criminal case for rape
against my father is that Kentucky is one of only 11 states where there is no statute of limitations on
felony crimes. That means you murder somebody 20 years ago, and evidence is presented yesterday that
substantiates you murdered someone 20 years ago, they will pursue the case or there is the capacity to
pursue the case under that existing statute. In civil litigation, the process of pleading a case of damages
and trying to sue your perpetrator is the civil proceeding, and the burden of proof is not as stringent as in
the criminal court. The criminal court insists that you prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Mr. X, Y
or Z perpetrated X, Y, Z crimes against you.
One of the things in corroboration here - I want to point this out so you don't get yourself in trouble - in
posting an ad for other survivors, make sure it is a blind ad where you do not identify yourself in any
way. You have the responses sent to a post office box and you do whatever you can to make sure that
can't be traced to you. For instance, have a friend who is supportive of you take out the post office box.
Fitzpatrick, of Survivor Connections in the Father Porter case, did this to obtain corroboration from
many of the other victims abused by Father Porter -- through the use of a blind ad.
This is what a police detective is interested in finding: who did it, what's their name, social security
number, birthdate, relationship to you (friend, relative, stranger), what is it they did to you? In
determining what, it would be very important for you to go ahead and research the existing statutes on
how criminal statutes are interpreted in your state, in your jurisdiction, in your local government. What
was it -- 1st degree rape, 2nd degree rape, child sexual abuse ... in my opinion you should always go for
the top charge. If it's penetration with force, it is rape, very simple. When did they do it? Gee, was it
January, February, was it 1963, was it 1964? Was it yesterday? In corroborating when, one of the things
I had told my police detective was that at the age of 9 one of my clearest memories of being raped, on
the sofa in the living room, with the TV on, while my siblings in the room while he was raping me, was
the Rocky and Bullwinkle Show on TV. Everyone was focused on the Rocky and Bullwinkle Show. Lo
and behold, not too far along after I told my police detective that, I come across a newspaper article
talking about the Rocky and Bullwinkle Show and how it only aired for a very short number of years
between 1964 and 1966 at the exact times I had related to my police detective that I was being raped on
a regular basis. That is circumstantial corroboration.
Where did it happen? In the basement, in the bed, in the field? Where did it happen? They are going to
want you to pinpoint it very, very carefully. As close as you can possibly get it. If you can, go back and
take photographs yourself, even though you are an adult now, take photographs of it. Or better yet give
your police detective a description of it and tell him to go and take a photograph to substantiate your
memory of it. Take a witness with you any time you are trying to gather any corroborative information,
take a witness so there is somebody else witnessing you getting the information, and how you are getting
the information.
Why? Typicall and unknowingly, when victims approach the criminal justice system, they typically start
out with "why?" The police want to know who, what, when, where, and lastly, why. The victim starts
out with why, what was the motivation for their victimization. My father raped me because he was a
member of a satanic cult. They are not interested in that per se. It is a factor, but it is last for them. They
are interested in who, what, when and where because this is what is going to stand up in a court of law.
These are the things that are going to provide evidence. Why is not the piece that is easy to gather ...
Here are some examples of some corroborative evidence while I was pursuing my case against my
father. Be prepared to be harassed. Especially when you are dealing with cases involving ritual crimes,
ritual abuse, satanic ritual abuse, other types of organized abuse, medical, mind control ... any of that ...
be prepared to be harassed. Here is some harassment I received. This graffiti was painted on the building
next to my home and these are my initials, maiden name initials. I took this to mean that I am being
watched. It says here, "Life is short, but love is long" - the skull and crossbones is the sign for death, or
poison. Needless to say I was rather terrified. Soon after this, we moved and three weeks after moving to
a new residence, in the park down by my house, there was all kinds of graffiti carved into the benches
which they literally had to use sanders to remove and the police did come by and take photographs of it.
I had told my police detective where I had been taken for ritual abuse as a child, and lo and behold, the
police had photographs of the site ... it still existed, and you would have to know exactly where the site
existed, or you would never find it. The site was located in a gulley, with huge monstrous trees and
carvings in the trees, and markers all along the paths. Well, guess what? Gee, I wonder why she was
taken there as a child? Could it be that my father's mother lived on the street less than 1/2 mile away.
Before I approached my police detective, I did the typical "pie in the sky" -- trying to get your
perpetrator to respond to you. Be sure you make a copy of that letter. There is my copy of a letter, and I
never got a response to that. No one can say to you, "hey, you've got to resolve this outside of court, give
it a chance." I gave it a chance, there was no response, and this was at a point in 1988 where I was not
far enough along in my healing -- certainly I could not pursue prosecution at this point because I was
still wanting a response from this perpetrator, and it was clear that was not going to be forthcoming.
That's pretty much pie in the sky. If you have that type of feeling still, you are not ready to pursue a case
through the court system, because you are going to have to be tough. It was some of my darkest days in
pursuing a case through the criminal justice system. At every turn, you are met with a closed door. I had
the D.A. say at one point, "We cannot prosecute your case because you are mentally ill. You have MPD,
so you are mentally ill." Guess what folks? You are going to have to educate your police officer, educate
the prosecutor. Somebody is going to have to educate the jurors, it can't be you, the victim, but
somebody needs to. This is what you are going to be up against.
The D.A. tells me they can't pursue my case, I am "mentally ill". Well, gee, guess what? Nobody has
ever adjudicated me "mentally ill". Make sure. Have they ever adjudicated so? The only person who can
adjudicate you mentally ill, is the judge. It is a proceeding in the judicial system that has to occur - they
can't just arbitrarily say "Gee, I have looked up in the American Psychological Association, or DSM IV,
or III, or whatever, and they are mentally ill." Since I wasn't mentally ill, there was no need to obtain a
forensic psychiatrist - if you were being adjudicated mentally ill, there would have to be a proceeding,
and they may or may not use a forensic psychiatrist. They may use John Doe, psychologist. They could
use XY&Z who was hired by the judicial system to do assessments to determine whether you are
mentally ill or not. But it was very clear that I was not mentally ill, had never been adjudicated so, I was
working, I was going to school, I could drive a car, have never been arrested for any kind of criminal
activity. I had been in a psychiatric unit four times, never longer than a week at a time. The first time,
age 19, suicide attempt. My parents had every intention of abandoning me in the hospital but two of my
friends came and got me out of the hospital, and had me live with them. Go forward in my life, and after
that hospitalization, I moved 13 times in a two year period in an effort to stay ahead of my perpetrator.
Every time I moved, my perpetrator found me, reoffended.
About 1973 the perpetrator moved to Columbus, Ohio so I was not in regular contact. By this time I was
finishing high school. As soon as I finished high school, I left home. That does not stop the perpetrator,
because you leave home.
What are the pros and cons of pursuing prosecution?
The pros are self-empowerment, not carrying the secret around with you any longer. Saying, and I try to
re-frame every time that I can - I don't say that I am a victim of child abuse - I say I am a 'crime victim'.
I do not differentiate that it is x,y and z crime - I am a crime victim. Don't give someone the chance to
define your reality. I also felt that by pursuing the prosecution, that I would protect other children. When
I got the information that he was still offending, it gave me great pleasure (I have to use the word
'pleasure') to know that I would be instrumental in protecting a child like me who at one time no one was
going to help. And when you are going back to get that collaborative information, you go back to your
childhood friends. Lo and behold, I found out I had told lots of people. I told lots of childhood friends
about what was going on, but 35 years ago in Kentucky there was no such thing as Child Protective
Services. Who would you have reported it to? The police? Gee, you could knock the hell out of your
wife, they didn't do anything about that. Do you think they were going to do anything about knocking
the hell out of your child, or raping your child? Did they do anything about spousal rape? You could
rape your wife all you wanted to. They wouldn't have done anything. Numerous people reported they
remember seeing me covered from head to toe with bruises. Going back in that collaborative record,
those school records, lo and behold, I had speech therapy in the fifth grade. Both me and my sister. We
couldn't talk correctly. Stuttered, couldn't pronounce words correctly. Developmental skills - some of
those were missing.
What are the cons in doing this?
Well the biggest con in my opinion is your loss of privacy. When you pursue either a criminal case or a
civil case, be prepared because your life will change. You will never again have a private life. When you
pursue anything through the criminal justice system, it is public record. That means anyone can go down
and request that, any newspaper, any tv station, your uncle joe who is one of your perpetrators, who you
have not yet filed charges against, a member of the x,y and z backlash group - anyone can then access
these public records about you. What does this mean? Well, to tell you the truth, as far as that con goes
about losing your privacy, I don't think it is so awfully bad, to the degree where I can say "you want to
know anything about me? Go and look it up at the courthouse. You want to know who I am? Go on
down. Pay your six dollars and get the record." Make them work for a change.
Expect to lose friends. Expect those family members who are not supportive of you to abandon you.
Expect family members who were supportive of you before you filed charges to now abandon you. It is
going to happen. I have had this one friend for twenty years, and this happened, and I thought this
person was pretty supportive - she had asked me to come over to her house, and she was having some
problems with a neighbour who was basically a very ill person and harassing her to some degree, and
she started asking me what could be done about this, and I said, "well, here's what I know as a social
worker - here's how the system works." My friend aske me what was wrong with her neighbour, and I
said I didn't know. And she said, "well I thought you would know because of your mentall illness." I
said, "well, I am not mentally ill." And she said, "I meant your 'condition'." I said, "I don't have a
'condition'. I am a crime victim. Try to use that to re-frame these negative views from people. Crime vi
ctim. We don't say to the crime victim who is held up at gunpoint, kidnapped in a carjacking - we don't
call them a carjacking victim who was traumatized, and is dissociative, and has to go into the psych unit,
and now they are mentally ill. We don't do that to most crime victims. But when it comes to sexual
crimes, we re-frame sexual crimes into the area of mental illness. Gee, if you were raped, and especially
if you were raped by a first degree relative, you couldn't possibly be "normal". Well, guess what? We are
normal. The people who are abnormal are the perpetrators. But because of society's fear of perpetrators,
they project that view on to the victim, so that you become more feared than the perpetrator. Example:
the prosecutor who was assigned to my case, was so frightened when I came to his office, that he had the
door blocked open with some bricks. I don't know what he thought was going to happen. I think his view
was, that as a multiple - my head was going to spin, and I was going to spew green vomit. And of
course, I would kill.
Be prepared. If you are a victim approaching the justice system and they say we are going to assign you
a victim's advocate - that advocate may or may not be an advocate. Typically victims' advocates are
assigned, are paid through the District Attorney's Office. The victim's advocate for you is not going to
bite the hand that feeds them. The prosecutor says, "hey, I don't think I want this case. Why don't you
get lost?" The prosecutor often uses the victim's advocate as the go-fer, to keep the victim away from the
prosecutor. So the prosecutor doesn't have to deal with the victim. What did I do to handle that? I
strongly, strongly advise this - if at all possible, if you have access to resources, hire your own attorney.
I was so fortunate and so lucky to have an attorney represent me pro bono. Her job was to watch-dog the
system. Mindful, when any of you get your own attorney, this attorney can't represent you in the court.
The only attorney who can do that is the prosecutor. But, prosecutors are attornies too, and they don't
like other attornies watching exactly what they are doing. So that puts a lot of pressure on the proseuctor
and the system, you'd better do this case right, you'd better follow all legal procedures, you'd better not
screw my client. I strongly advise any victim going through the criminal justice system to do this.
Oh jeez. You know that old police detective wants to know everything, and guess what? There were lots
of times when I didn't want to tell the detective anything, so I didn't tell him anything. But other parts of
me sure did go down there and tell him a whole bunch of stuff. Here's one way that some parts tell. They
draw pictures and they write it out. What happened, what can you remember? Well, gee, I don't
remember a whole lot but maybe this person does. [Drawing] You are going to have to educate your
police detective as to what traumatic memory is. A good book to start with is Charles Whitfield's book,
what is traumatic memory? Educate, educate, educate. The guilt. The question that all victims want to
know - why? You are never going to answer that. Don't expect your police detective to answer that.
Don't expect the prosecutor to answer that. There is no answer. What did he do to you? [Drawing]
There's an example of something he did, and it is kind of interesting - you can go years and not
recognize correlations. Over the years my perpetrator sent messages to me. There are various ways of
telling you to shut up. This is a Christmas card that my perpetrator sent to me after he had called me up
on the telephone in 1978, told me to go to the airport, he had a ticket waiting for me. I flew to New York
City, stayed at the Hotel Lexington where I was re-abused. He sent me this Christmas card. Here is a
picture of me being chained and whipped - here is the card he sent me. It's a picture of Santa Claus in his
longjohns holding a whip, I guess for Rudolf and the rest of the reindeer and it says, "when the holiday
hustle and bustle has passed, hope all of your jolly old memories last" and he inserts, "New York
memories will last."
Here's another card - Santa Claus is holding a book and hovering over the children. He says, "good boys
and girls". These are all Norman Rockwell drawings. "May the wonder and magic of Christmas fill your
heart with joy. Love Dad, Stockholm, Sweden, 1980." Here's one from France, "wish you were here" etc
etc etc. These are some of the pieces that you take with you. If you can, if at all possible, start organizing
a book - anything like this you come across, old cards, any pictures - that can establish a timeline. Put
together a book if you can before you go forward, because a lot of people go "gee, I don't have to do too
much work here, she's done it all for me, I don't have to run around and get all these records - they've got
it." They are more likely to take your case, and do something with it. Still, even then, expect, especially
in a ritual abuse case, expect adverse - let's just face it, there are a lot of people who just don't want you
to go forward with your case. And you are going to have to be your own best advocate, and you are
going to have to turn in t o an assertive, insistent, aggressive even , advocate for yourself. Nobody else
will do this for you.
The local D.A. didn't want to do anything with my case - they were thinking I was just this mentally ill
nut - but I educated them to that fact, that I am not a mentally ill nut - so I decided I would get the
victim's advocate division from the Attorney General's Office. I am rattling cages. I am insisting that
someone do something with my case. If I have called the D.A.'s office once, I have called them 50 times
this month. Have I called my detective weekly? You betcha. If I haven't called, parts of me have called,
somebody has called. My support group - they write a letter on my behalf. They insist that the D.A. go
forward with my case. Start your own letter-writing campaign. Contact your representative. Well, gee
they may be one of the enemy. They may be part of it. Well - you know, in this game, it is a crapshoot.
You may not be able to trust any of them, but you may be able to trust some of them. It is a crapshoot,
and you go for it, if this is what you want to do -- you keep on and you don't give up. It will be your
darkest day in pursuing this case, but do not give up.
Here are some things that happened, but do you think the police detective looked at this and said, "Gee I
am going to go tell the Prosecutor that this kind of stuff happens." Are you kidding? No way. They are
going to discard you. Yes, you have been ritually abused, yes you have been tortured, yes some horrible
things have happened. But go for what you can get them on. First degree rape is prosecutable. They are
not interested in this type of criminal activity that took place. It's enough to say "he raped me on the sofa
in 1964 with Rocky the Flying Squirrel flying higher in my mind."
I would like to free up some time now, to answer some questions. I would be happy to answer any
questions that you might have. If you know someone who wants to pursue a case, I have cards. Feel free
to call me. I will give you as much input as I can, but be mindful, no one is ever a substitute for your
own attorney. For those persons out there who cannot afford an attorney, other survivors may be the
only advocates that you have who can impart information to you. Believe me, no one else will. If the
victims don't tell you to do this, no victim's advocate is going to tell you how to get through the criminal
justice system, no police detective is going to tell you what to do. I had a police detective who was
unusual. At one point he said, "look - they are fucking you - they are messing with you - so let's go on
down to the warrant desk and file a warrant." Guess what folks. The D.A. is not the only person who can
bring a case against a perpetrator. You, U.S. citizen, have the right under the U. S. constitution to go
down and file a warrant yourself, with evidence in hand, you have the absolute right to file a warrant
yourself. What that does is force a prosecutor to appoint someone to look at the case. To at least look at
it. They can still pass it under the rug - it doesn't mean that they are going to do anything - but they have
to look at it. So we file a warrant, the prosecutor looks at the case, he doesn't want to do anything with it.
I am going all over the place making a lot of noise. "You are going to go forward with this case. I insist
on it. And this is why I insist on it." Still nothing happens. I go to the Attorney General's victim
advocacy program (most states have this program) - they send a contingent up to Louisville to say
"what's going on with this case? You don't want to prosecute it? We are going to take jurisdiction over
the case." There ensues a war between the Attorney General and the local prosecutors for jurisdiction of
the case. Still nothing happens with the case. So I pull out - this is a real crapshoot - I call and basically
tell the Commonwealth's Attorney, the local D.A., "if you don't forward my case to the Attorney
General's office, I have five newspaper reporters lined up ready to go." Could this be interpreted as
blackmail? I don't know. No one ever charged me with blackmail, mainly because it was the truth.
Always have your media ace ready to play. That means be talking behind the scenes to someone who
believes in your case, someone in the media, someone who is willing to advocate for you i n a public
way . You have to be prepared for this. Your case may end up on the five o'clock news.
Artifacts? Here's an artifact. I've had that since I was a teenager. How do you know? My sister is willing
to testify to that. Who questions my sister? My police detective. How long has she had this thing? She
tells him. My sister, a witness. She allows herself to be wired for sound and that means the police
detective does a wiretap with my sister confronting my father, the perpetrator with abuse. This is done
for a couple of reasons. You might think, well it's done to gather evidence for your case. Not necessarily
so, because that may or may not be admissible. It could be done for a number of reaons. The detective is
not quite sure about your case. May want to get some information for his own reasons. The police
detective may be harassed by his superiors, who are saying, "why are you pursuing this case?" So he has
done this wiretap to get the information to show his superiors that he's on target.
In the way of educating - I have put together books like this of newspaper clippings that I have gathered
since 1986. Does this stuff happen by prominent people? Don't believe what I say - here's what the paper
says. Here's the evidence. Let it explain it for you. I am not the only one this has happened to. There are
many, many cases. It's just that very few cases get to the criminal justice system because statute of
limitations in that state do not allow a person to pursue a criminal case. So they go to the civil court. You
may not be able to get through that way either. Some states have passed delayed discovery rulings - an
example of this is, a victim goes to therapy and starts remembering their abuse - they have some details
and they are sure of what happened, who, what, when, where, how and why - the delayed statute starts
running from the day you remember your abuse. In some states - it varies in years - in some states you've
got three years from the day you first remember. Not three yea rs after the date you become empowered,
but three years after you remember your abuse. Can you get in enough therapy, can you get empowered
enough, can you gather enough support to make it under that statute of limitations in order to pursue a
civil case? It's pretty tough, it's pretty tough to do that.
Wayne Morris:
We have been listening to a presentation by Jeanette Westbrook on prosecuting perpetrators of abuse,
and this broadcast is not to be taken as encouragement to pursue legal cases such as these involving
recovered memories of abuse, as these are extremely difficult to go through, but it is interesting to hear
what is needed to prepare if one was to take this forward. Jeanette's trial didn't actually go through as her
father suddenly died just before being extradited to face charges. Stay tuned next week, as we will
continue with Part 2 of this presentation, and an interview with Jeanette Westbrook, on the International
Connection CKLN 88.1 FM.
Wayne Morris:
Good morning. You have tuned into the International Connection. We are continuing with our radio
series on mind control. Today we are listening to Part 2 of a presentation given by Jeanette Westbrook
MSW entitled: Issues Regarding Prosecuting for Adult Survivors of Ritual Abuse. Jeanette brought legal
charges against her father, alleging that he had severely abused her as a child and teenager, through
ritualistic torture and sexual abuse. Her father, a prominent person in society, had the job of overseeing
inspections for all nuclear power plants in the USA. And now, Jeanette Westbrook.
Jeanette Westbrook:
The charges have to be brought in the jurisdiction in which the crimes occurred. So, the victim lives in
one state, the perpetrator lives in another, but the crimes were committed in Kentucky. That means you
have to file charges in the state of Kentucky. The prosecutor in the state of Kentucky will have to initiate
proceedings to bring that perpetrator back to the state of Kentucky. It complicates cases, because a lot of
prosecutors don't want to go through that whole procedure of extraditing a criminal back to another
state ... it really complicates it, but it can be done.
In my case, the attorney general filed extradition papers for my perpetrator to be brought from
Columbus, Ohio back to the state of Kentucky where most of the criminal acts occurred, to stand trial in
a criminal court of law. The extradition papers were signed in late May -- by June 22 the perpetrator was
dead.
My father had been speaking to the Parliament in Hungary. At the time of his death, he was Executive
Director of the National Board of Boiler and Pressure Vessel Inspectors -- which means he controlled
the inspections of all the nuclear power plants in the United States. That was one of my biggest and
deepest fears -- your perpetrator tells you that all these horrible things are going to happen if you "tell" --
"I will kill your family" blah blah blah. In my mind, one of my biggest fears was that I "tell", and my
perpetrator sabotages a nuclear power plant, and millions die. I really felt that. My perpetrator did die,
and no one had any intention of telling me that he was dead. There was a concerted effort for me not to
have that information. I wanted to go to the funeral, but I was threatened: "if you come to the funeral, we
will bodily remove you." I was told this by the heir to my perpetrator's estate, and for legal reasons, I do
not want to say the name.
Gee - it's a little bit unusual. The perpetrator suddenly dies at home, at 3am, no autopsy is done, a private
physician comes to his home, signs off the death certificate, and that is the end of that. Very unusual.
Somebody who has pending felony charges, and is being extradited for those charges. There should have
been an autopsy done by a coroner, but there wasn't. And once the body is in the ground, folks, the body
is very, very difficult to exhume and see if this perpetrator was poisoned, if there was foul play, anything
out of the ordinary. It is not going to happen after the fact.
How did I know that the perpetrator was actually dead, since I didn't see the body? That was problematic
because parts of me didn't want to believe that he was deceased. I was able to get hold of his last
remaining first degree relative, his sister, my aunt, who reveals to me, now that he is dead, that she was
raped by two of the same family members that had raped me. And she assured me that it was his body. I
don't know. I may never know. But I am pretty sure he is a dead man. What happened to him? Do you
think he was murdered before we brought him back to Kentucky to stand trial? I don't know. Who would
want him dead? Would cult members want him dead? Do you think the government might want him
dead? How would it look? This person was controlling these inspections for the nuclear power plants --
and he was a sadistic pedophile -- not to mention all the other things he was into. When you are looking
at the background of your perpetrator -- my perpetrator was a Boy Scout leader, a church deacon , a
Grand Master Mason. Gee - what's that got to do with it? I don't know. Don't try to define that. Don't say
to your detective, "my father was a Boy Scout leader -- so therefore, this equals that." Let the detective
draw his own conclusions to that. You can substantiate that your perpetrator had access to other child
victims because he is a Boy Scout leader, because he is a church deacon ...
After my father was dead, the organization he worked for wrote: "Mr. Blank was loved by family, by
National Board staff, by business associates. He even had a legion of pint-sized admirers, the
neighbourhood kids. It was common to see a bunch of them gathered in Mr. Blank's yard. He always
found time for the children, and he always enquired after their well being. Such was his concern, and it
was genuine. Representing the Executive leadership of the National Board, Mr. Blank cast an image of
impressive proportions. He met with world leaders. He rubbed an elbow or two with the politically
powerful. He occasioned with the Captains of Industry. Elegantly attired, he slipped neatly into whatever
role he was expected to play."
Why pursue? What is the number one attack that the perpetrator uses against the victim? It is silencing
the victim. In "Trauma and Recovery" by Judith Lewis Herman -- I think this is a fantastic summary --
"... in order to escape accountability for his crimes, the perpetrator does everything in his power to
promote forgetting. Secrecy and silence are the perpetrator's first line of defence. If secrecy fails, the
perpetrator attacks the credibility of his victim. If he cannot silence her absolutely, he tries to make sure
that no one listens. To this end, he marshals an impressive array of arguments from the most blatant
denial to the most sophisticated and eloquent rationalization. After every atrocity, one can expect to hear
the same predictable apologies. 'It never happened' - 'the victim lies' - 'the victim exaggerates' - 'the
victim brought it upon herself' - and in any case, it is time to forget the past and move on. The more
powerful the perpetrator, the greater is his perogative to name and define realilty, and the more
completely his arguments will prevail."
I recommend "Trauma and Recovery" by Judith Lewis Herman highly. I also recommend, this is a
classic, "Against Our Will: Men, Women and Rape" by Susan Brownmiller. It is very important for you
to understand the dynamics of rape, and how our society looks at rape and abuse. This isn't bad either.
"Against Therapy" -- this is how our psychiatric system looks at abuse -- it is that old "wandering
uterus" thing -- [hysteria].
[Answer to audience Question]: Well, I think it is kind of interesting. I did bring with me, and you are
welcome to look at this thing, I decided that after his death, the Masonic Brotherhood went out and some
rites at his funeral -- gee, I couldn't go. But they were there. I called the Masonic Lodge that he had been
a member of for forty years because I wanted some documentation for myself, and sure enough, I called
and told them I was the dutiful daughter, and I was so sorry (sic) -- I got back the documentation that
Mr. Blank of blank address, was a member of Jeffersontown Lodge #774, in blank, Kentucky, date of
birth, blah blah blah. He entered his first degree in the Masonic Lodge in 1965, made second degree in
February, 1966, and made the Master Mason in March, 1966 -- all within one year. How is that
possible? I don't know. Is there a correlation. In this case, for this particular Lodge, I believe there is
some collaborative evidence there and that is, that there were two other cases that had been prosecuted
and convicted -- two other perpetrators from the same Masonic Lodge to which my perpetrator had been
a member of for thirty plus years. Is there a correlation there? Do birds of a feather flock together?
Whether it's a Masonic Lodge, whether it is a church, whether it is - you name it. Are they all this way? I
don't know. I am not going to interpret that for my detective. Let him draw that conclusion. Why is that
all these perpetrators are coming out of this certain place? Whatever organization it is. Should they look
at that? Yeah, I think so. Especially since I went out and took pictures of it, and it is right above the
daycare centre. Might there be a problem? I don't know. Can I say something about that to police? I
certainly can. Gee -- did you know that X,Y and Z case which was published in the newspaper, and
convicted -- did you know these two convicted perpetrators belonged to this organization and guess
what? My perpretrator belonged to this organization also. Are they going to do something with this in a
court of law? Nah. Or is that going to lead your detective to say, "yeah, there's something here."
Probably. Are they going to talk about that in a public forum? No. They are not. They are going to deal
with what is in the statutes.
That's why every survivor who is able to get through the criminal justice system -- you are a star. You
are a ray of hope. You are forming a path. You are gathering information and empowerment to give to
another survivor, because nobody else has given that to you. You will gather that information. You will
pass it on. You will show -- people will learn from what you have done.
[Question & Comment from Audience: In Thunder Bay, Ontario there were approximately 170 men in
the perpetrators' treatment program at the Lakehead Psychiatric Hospital last year -- and yet in the same
year, there were perhaps only two published convictions for sexual abuse of children in the region. My
math isn't very good, so I don't know what percentage that represents ... but there is something very,
very wrong. Comment from Audience: It works out to approximately 99.99% don't get convicted.]
It's called, "It's Stacked Against the Victim" and the perpetrators pretty much roam free. They do what
they want. They rape, they maim, they torture, they kill, and they get away with it -- until someone is
empowered enough to stop one perpetrator -- which means you have stopped, or you have prevented
potentially 30 victims in the future. That's what you have done when you have the capacity -- and no one
should ever -- if you have survivors who aren't able to prosecute for whatever reason -- whether it's
statute of limitations, whatever -- never, ever apply pressure or infer there is something wrong with that
person because they did not pursue a course of legal action. That's just not fair, and can be a re-
victimization of that victim to say that "you are less than ... because you did not pursue the case." It's just
grossly unfair because there aren't too many who are able to do it, and as I said in the beginning, one of
the reasons I could do it, is because I don't have children. It would have been much, much different if I
had children behind me ... and I was in the position of keeping them safe and protected. I never believed
I would be able to protect my own child -- I always felt the perpetrator could get access to my child. But
I can tell you at this point, there are four siblings -- I have two older brothers, myself, and a sister who is
a year younger than I -- none of us have any children. That is statistically very rare for a whole sibling
group to have no children. So it has stopped -- it has stopped with our generation. It has stopped with
yours. It is a horrible price to pay.
I left something out that is very important -- when you move in a criminal case or a civil case -- one of
the first things you should do is have your attorney freeze the perpetrator's damn assets -- don't give him
a chance to hide those assets, because he will make an attempt to do that. That's one thing a lot of
attorneys don't know. Immediately, file, freeze those assets, so you have something to get access to --
hey, you have won half a million dollar suit against your perpetrator, and he's hidden all the assets, and
he has filed bankruptcy. There goes your dream of having your therapy paid for. Was I cut out of the
will? Yeah, there was an attempt to have me cut out, and I pursued it myself, without an attorney. My
access to my measly $12,000 inheritance. $12,000 was a lot to me though -- I paid off some medical
bills -- he could have got out of this earlier on, because when I filed the warrant to invite him into court
-- guess what the perpetrator tried to do? There is another thing you have to learn -- there is this thing
called the Judge's Chambers -- it's sort of back here somewhere. There are things that happen there, and
it's called "a done deal". There are deals that go down back there that you don't have access to. And
that's one important reason I have my own attorney -- you want her back there finding out what the done
deal is. When the perpetrator comes into District Court after I filed the first degree rape charges there is
the old plea bargain - they want to make a deal. His attorney says, "gee, he is willing to plead guilty to a
midsdemeanour of facilitating child sexual abuse -- believe it or not, that just gave a lot more umph to
my police detective, because it verified everything I had been talking about multiple perpetrators. If you
are "facilitating child sexual abuse" guess what, there are more than two people involved -- the victim,
the perpetrator, and the one facilitating. He is willing to plead guilty that he was facilitating child sexual
abuse -- "Hey, I didn't do it, but I sort of facilitated it ..." in lieu of pursuing the further criminal action
against him. My attorney is back there, and she says, "We won't pursue if you will give her $50,000 -- or
his attorney throws out that figure -- and they come back to me. "Will you be willing to accept a
misdemeanour plea bargan of facilitating child sexual abuse and $50,000?" Nah. I wasn't willing to do it.
That wasn't going to buy me. God forbid for me to be the judge of that -- if it was easier on you, and you
could get $50,000 and this was enough for you, take it and go. If you can actually get access to that
$50,000, and that's questionable. They may say that as a done deal, but after the fact, "gee, I am
bankrupt." So you have to be careful about accepting plea bargains and money. You want to see the
dollar on the table ahead of time.
I was not willing to accept that misdemeanour plea bargain, because I knew that Kentucky had passed
the sex offender registry -- now everybody has the sex offenders registry thanks to Megan's Law. At the
time, 1992, I wanted to make sure that he got a Felony Conviction, because only felony convictions go
on the convicted perpetrators list. So in order to stop my perpetrator, I knew I had to have that felony
conviction, that way it would go out to all of these jurisdictions and warn everyone that he is a sex
offender and it would further open the door for his other victims to file criminal charges.
[Question from audience: Does that apply to all the states, or will it just apply to each state
individually?] I am not sure how they are going to do that. What I understand at this point is that police
jurisdictions are going to have access to the information -- that is being challenged by the American
Civil Liberties Union. Does anybody know more information concerning that? As far as I know, it's still
up in the air. [Question re: mother] My mother is a co-offender. My mother was 16 years old when she
had her first child, there were four of us in a row. My mother was an only child. As I found out much
later, and this is doing your homework, the person I was told was my mother's mother, was in fact not
my mother's mother. From what I have been able to find out, my mother's father was a doctor, and
supposedly my mother was a child of some woman he had an affair with. I don't know who my mother's
mother is ... I have never met any of her relatives. I don't know anything about her family. The person I
was told was my grandmother, she is still alive, she is 96 years old. I asked her about my mother's
heritage, about that, and she just gave me the answer, "let that rest ... let's not talk about it." So it was a
clear message to me she is not going to reveal. I will probably never get that information unfortunately. I
do a lot of minimizing concerning my mother's abuse -- she is clearly a co-offender. What I mean by that
is she knowingly participated in that. She actually used her medications on me for my venereal
infections, so she knew about that ... but to tell you the truth, 35 years ago, if she had gone and said, "oh
my husband is raping my daughter" do you think anybody would have done anything about it? No.
Nobody would have done anything about it. They would have likely sent her over to the mental hospital,
shocked the shit out of her, and that would take care of that, give her some drugs and blame it on a
wandering uterus. I am not exaggerating one bit there. That actually is what happened a lot of times.
[Question from audience: What about your own siblings, their own denial or their own reality of what
happened?] My sister is totally supportive. She gave a deposition to the police concerning her own
victimization and witnessing what she knew about my victimization. She was not ritually abused, she is
not multiple, but she has typical amnesia and dissociative symptoms as many trauma survivors have. My
oldest brother pretty much took over ... I want to refrain from answering that. My two older brothers are
not supportive, they are in denial, although my oldest brother admitted to me that my father took a 2x4
and beat him up with it in the basement for getting a bad grade on his report card. Now, I could have
told anybody, I was not there and I did not see that. We are talking about traumatic forgetting, what Dr.
Whitfield was talking about this morning. My sister says, "oh yes you were, you were standing right
beside me." The perpetrator had called all of us to the basement -- my mother, sister, two brothers -- our
oldest brother getting the punishment. We were all there to witness this incident. My oldest brother
admits that to me, on the telephone, and he admits that took place. But like a lot of victims, he
minimized that. He sided with the perpetrator. I don't know what it holds for them.
Wayne Morris:
We have been listening to a presentation by Jeanette Westbrook about prosecuting perpetrators about
ritual and sexual abuse. In addition to Jeanette's abilities as a social worker, she is also a singer and
musician, and we are going to bring you a song entitled "Holocaust" recorded by Jeanette, that she
dedicates to all survivors of cult ritual abuse, mind control and child abuse. Right after that, we will
bring you an interview I conducted with Jeanette Westbrook.
Contents
Jeanette's Song
A lifetime of living is like a lifetime of dying
When the moon is full there is darkness all around
Hands go up with their lies they will be bound
And the souls of men they are nowhere to be found
In a Holocaust, it happens on your street,
Holocaust, the victims you will meet
Of the Holocaust ... can't you count the cost?
There's a price to be paid, you will pay it one day.
A lifetime of trying to not hear the crying
Of the children who only want to live
The blood of life is all they have to give
And their sacrifice will not give them what they need
It will not squelch their hunger and their greed
For a Holocaust
It happens on your street,
Holocaust, The victims you will meet,
Of a Holocaust. Can't you count the cost?
There's a price to pay, you will pay it one day.
-- Every year there are 50,000 children who disappear.
A lifetime of giving hope to the living,
That history will not be your destiny
And all the world will hear the words you say
Tomorrow, forever a day.
Holocaust
You will pay it one day Holocaust ...
Contents
Interview

Wayne Morris:
I will start off by asking you how was the process initially when you started remembering your abuse,
and how much time had passed since the abuse ended?
Jeanette Westbrook:
Well, my last hands-on abuse by my main perpetrator, my father, occurred when I was 24 years old ...
so, ongoing from early childhood all the way til I was 24. The process of remembering is the old off-
again, on-again process of remembering, but only remembering certain incidents, or only having flashes
like viewing a far-away video that sometimes became clear, and sometimes was fog-covered. I really
started getting a lot of my memories and flashbacks at age 28 when I met and married my husband.
Wayne Morris:
Were there certain things that triggered flashbacks for you or ... how did they come?
Jeanette Westbrook:
I have an idea about how that happens. I think, for me, that when I married my husband I was then in a
routine day-to-day relationship with someone, with an ongoing sexual relationship. What prompted me
to enter therapy was shortly after I got married, I was sitting on the bed in our bedroom, and he simply
placed his hand on my leg, on my knee and I had a flashback, and I started breaking things. I was full of
rage. It was almost like I blacked out when I did this, or what I know now to be a "switch". After this, I
thought, "oh my god ... what is going on? I have to do something." Little did I know that there were parts
of me that throughout the years had gone to other therapists trying to get help without my knowledge.
Wayne Morris:
You had gone to therapy for other things that were happening in your life before the age of 28?
Jeanette Westbrook:
Yes, but I did not know that "they" were going to a therapist and talking about incest. They actually
approached therapists and most of the time, from what I now understand, most therapists at the time in
the early 1980's and even in the 70's weren't dealing with issues of incest, period.
Wayne Morris:
When did you suspect that you had Dissociative Identity Disorder?
Jeanette Westbrook:
After I started having flashbacks, I started getting the memory as a child of being ostracized and isolated
in school because I had failed the first grade, repeated the first grade. At the end of my second grade,
they tested my IQ, and it was only 80 points at the time, which was a reflection, I believe, of the
overwhelming trauma that I was experiencing. In the seventh grade I was walking down the school hall,
and I was sad, lonely, feeling that I had no friends, and one of my parts, Jenny, said to me, "I will show
you how to make friends ... I will do it for you." So this part, Jenny, an alter, or however you want to
frame that, was so outgoing and talented and could sing, could do so many things I felt at the time I
could not do ... she was winning friends all over the school, so we had a social life. This part of me lived
many years of my life for me, or had most of the time, lived a lot of my life for me so I wouldn't be
lonely, or ostracized. So I would have a social life so I could gai n some social skills ...
Wayne Morris:
Can you talk about what age you think your abuse by your father started, and what kind of things
happened?
Jeanette Westbrook:
There were various types of abuse ... as a young child, I didn't have enough food to eat. That was a result
of plain old neglect. It was not because there wasn't enough money to provide food, it was because of
neglect. One vivid memory that I had, which I have drawn pictures of, and reported to my police
detective in the course of prosecuting my father ... I was hung upside down with ropes from rafters in the
garage beside our house. I still have the scars on my ankles from this. I was threatened with a welding
rod. I was penetrated with an object, hanging upside down. Other types of abuse would be simply just
being in bed, taken from my home, raped ... it could be any time, any time of the night. It could be with
people I knew or did not know.
Wayne Morris:
When you say ritual abuse, what do you mean by that?
Jeanette Westbrook:
Ritual abuse is severe physical, spiritual, mental abuse at the hands of multiple perpetrators. I mean
abuse that is taken in the context of not only a spiritual or religious belief, but abuse that is very hard to
define as to "why?" -- which victims ultimately ask. Why? It is abuse that is torturous, involves torture,
threats of torture, threats to your person, to your very being, threats to humanity, threats to persons that
you hold dear, threats to your pets ...
Wayne Morris:
And through these threats, did you feel that you couldn't escape the situation, you couldn't just run away
from it?
Jeanette Westbrook:
Yes. I felt that way, and to explain how my childhood was ... we were over-controlled when we were
very young, and as we became teenagers, there was no control. We were running the streets. We were
everywhere. Promiscuous, drug-using. The house was loaded with drugs. There was no need to go out in
the street to find drugs. It was right there. It was a proverbial drugstore.
Wayne Morris:
Was it your father who was bringing drugs in?
Jeanette Westbrook:
My father assisted someone in my family with what I consider drug dealing, but in my opinion it was
not that person who was responsible, but ultimately my father was responsible for this.
Wayne Morris:
What was the relationship to your father of some of these other perpetrators?
Jeanette Westbrook:
Some were known to him through his fraternal organization, some were known to him through his
religious organization but I definitely feel he didn't belong to the religious organization -- it was simply
a way to procure more victims. I was not his only victim. I was not his only victim in our family. He had
multiple victims outside of our family. When I revealed to one of my father's relatives, his only
remaining direct relative, she said she had been raped by two of the same family members who had
raped me as a child. I was able to document at least three generations. The police also had photographs
and access to the site where I was taken as a child in the context of ritual abuse. The evidence existed.
Not only did my detective investigate, and believe me, I had other police officers who supported me,
accompanied me to approach the District Attorney.
Wayne Morris:
Did you feel that specifically the Masonic context had anything to do with the rituals themselves, were
there Masonic elements to the ritual abuse?
Jeanette Westbrook:
I don't necessarily feel that there was. I feel that birds of a feather flock together. I feel that his cohorts in
his fraternal organization, in terms of joining in the abuse of me, was because they were all pedophiles --
simply pedophiles -- regardless of whether they were practicing satanists, regardless of whether they
were a member of a fraternal organization, regardless of whether they were a boy scout leader,
regardless of whether they were a community figure, regardless of whether they worked for state
government, regardless of whether they worked for federal government. What is indicative to me, that
underlies all this, is the fact that the persons who commit crimes against children of the most hideous
nature -- crimes that are sadistically violent -- I think that he and others attempted not only to sadistically
me, but to split my mind into as many pieces, to split my personality. My sister remembered my father
calling me by other names. She wondered why was she being called by these other names. He definitely
knew of my alter personalities.
Wayne Morris:
This sounds a lot like the deliberate creation of multiple personalities with the government mind control
experiments. Did you feel that your father had knowledge of these kinds of techniques, or that he just
picked up that you did have multiple personalities, and he just continued to use that against you?
Jeanette Westbrook:
I have not completed all of my research concerning his military career and any connections there. From
what I know now, I would find it very remote that he would have known this on his own (the capacity to
induce this). However, I do believe that organizations, whether we want to call them satanists, or
whether we want to call them organized pedophile clubs, whether we want to call them mind control, are
very much aware of multiple personality defence systems. They definitely know about it, and they seek
to create it as a way to keep their abuse of the victim hidden. They use this in a manner that protects
their identity, so that I and all parts of me being abused, horrible, sadistic abuse -- could get up in the
morning, and function, and go to school, and come home, and live with these perpetrators.
Wayne Morris:
Did your father just outright threaten you if you told anybody?
Jeanette Westbrook:
Absolutely yes. He threatened me, not only verbally, but he threatened me with a welding rod. A
welding rod is an item that is hot enough to melt metal.
Wayne Morris:
Did you specifically choose to leave out the ritualistic aspects of the abuse in the court, or did you
somehow want to work that in?
Jeanette Westbrook:
I definitely left that out. Because there were no statutes against ritual abuse, it was clear that the courts
would not proceed under a statute that did not exist. First degree rape, whether in the context of ritual or
organized abuse, rape is rape is rape. That's a crime used in force. That's a felony crime. Used by your
first degree relative, it is incest.
Wayne Morris:
If you did introduce testimony regarding the ritual abuse aspects, how do you think that would have
been received by the court?
Jeanette Westbrook:
I think it would have been very difficult, if not impossible; however, the players behind the scenes, that
is the District Attorney, the police officers involved in my case, my own personal attorney, and persons
in the Kentucky Attorney General's office -- everyone knew it was a ritual abuse case. People were very
much sure of the case because of the vast amount of collaborative evidence that I had, and supporting
testimony from other victims.
Wayne Morris:
While you were gathering evidence for your case, did you feel you were hampered or sabotaged in any
way by your perpetrators?
Jeanette Westbrook:
Not only do I feel that I was sabotaged, I feel that the entire criminal justice system not only erected
barriers in front of me to the criminal justice system, but in essence stuck their foot out and tripped me
several times -- each time I got up and moved over those barriers and used every advocacy organization
that I could contact. I had letters of support from other victims who were behind me in my call to go
through the criminal justice system to bring the perpetrator to justice. I did not seek a criminal recourse
against my perpetrator until I got the knowledge that my perpetrator not only had raped me, but had
raped other victims. I could not stand for myself, but I found the courage to stand up for others. In the
system, absolutely there was sabotage, not only within the system, my father was very much connected
with the system that existed in the jurisdiction in which I brought charges. As a matter of fact, the D.A.
refused to bring charges, even in the face of massive evidence. Even in the face of my police detective
tape recording my perpetrator over the telephone, getting this information on tape. Even in the face of
taped admissions -- refusing to go forward with the case to the point where I involved the Attorney
General's office, the victims' advocacy division, and they sent a contingent to the local D.A. insisting
that my case be released, or insisting that they prosecute my case. The D.A. still refused to prosecute the
case, and then the Attorney General's office interceded and moved to take jurisdiction of the case, and
then moved to extradite my perpetrator (who was then living in another state) back to the state of
Kentucky to stand trial on felony first degree rape.
Wayne Morris:
So at that point upon the extradition, the trial was ready to go forward then?
Jeanette Westbrook:
Yes it was.
Wayne Morris:
Can you talk about what happened at this point ...
Jeanette Westbrook:
The Attorney General's office went forward with the process of drawing up the extradition papers, ready
to extradite him. My perpetrator happened to be out of the United States meeting with presidents and
dignitaries of foreign countries. Upon his return to the United States, he came home on a Thursday
night, Friday night he fixed steak dinners on a barbeque. By Sundy he was dead. He died at home. The
reason given was that supposedly he died of a heart attack at age 64. It was signed off by a private
physician. There was no autopsy done which is very unusual given the person was being charged with
felony indictments, and being extradited back to another state, which is fairly rare.
Wayne Morris:
Did your father have a history of heart problems before that?
Jeanette Westbrook:
From what I understand he was fairly healthy, although there had been other deaths in his family of heart
attacks and I might add, deaths by other family members who were perpetrators.
Wayne Morris:
When your father was visiting the foreign countries, this was with the business of the nucelar power
stations ... his work ...
Jeanette Westbrook:
Yes, it was connected with the nuclear industry ... that is, what he was doing in those countries was
formulating programs for these countries that had formerly been under communist rule who depended
heavily on nuclear power for industry, for heating their homes, etc. and he was there helping them
develop new nuclear power systems from what I understand -- especially from the aspect of nuclear
safety in which the communist regimes were sorely lacking in safety precautions in domestic
applications.
Wayne Morris:
... not only in the communist countries ...
You have been listening to Jeanette Westbrook MSW, a social worker, singer, and survivor of ritual and
sexual abuse by her father and others. As we have heard, her father was the Director for the organization
responsible for inspecting all nuclear power plants in the USA. He was a Grand Master Mason, Boy
Scout leader, and church deacon. Jeanette's legal case against her father, if it had gone forward, would
have created a scandal. Just before having to face charges in court, Jeanette's father died. This has been
show number 22 in the ongoing series on mind control. Tune in next week for an interview with Dr.
Stephen Kent about cult ritual abuse. You have been listening to CKLN 88.1.
Contents


Dr. Stephen Kent
Interview on Cults
and Ritual Abuse
Wayne Morris:
Good morning. You are tuned into the International Connection once again. Today is show #23 in a
series on mind control we are presenting here on CKLN, and today we are interviewing Dr. Stephen
Kent, a sociologist at the University of Alberta in Edmonton. Dr. Kent specializes in studying abusive
cults and accounts of ritual abuse. Here is that interview:
I am talking to Dr. Stephen Kent. Thank you very much for joining us Stephen.
Dr. Stephen Kent:
Thank you very much for asking me.
Wayne Morris:
I wonder if you could briefly tell us what your background is, and what is the work that you are
currently doing.
Dr. Stephen Kent:
I am a sociologist of religion, and I specialize in the study of controversial religions. These are the
groups that are outside the mainstream. These are the groups that are often smaller, but the groups that
most people pejoratively call "cults". As part of that research, I got involved in studying abuse accounts
that people were providing to me from their involvement in some contraversial religions. By no means is
it the case that merely because a group is new or small, does it mean that it is involved in any kind of
abuse scenarios. But certainly a lot of abuse does go on in some of these small groups. As part of that
process I was getting really extraordinary accounts about physical, emotional and sexual abuse. Then in
October of 1989 I attended a conference specifically on ritual abuse -- a three day conference -- the first
day or day and a half was on the kinds of groups that I had been studying, then the final day and a half
was more on groups oriented around the worship of satan. I came away from the conference saying,
"something is going on," but I had at that time no direct experience or interviews with people. I also had
been collecting whatever material I could find on allegations involving satanism, and I had done some
historical work about satanic allegations in the 17th century ... so I had some large conceptual
background.
It was March 1990, when my first account came. This person was having memories, and she called the
university -- usually it is the case that these calls are about unusual religious activities wind up going
into my office -- so this phone call was re-routed to my office. This person did not identify herself. I get
calls like this from time to time, so I am not too surprised about that. But she asked me a question about
a symbol. I am a collector and I work with a lot of religious materials but I had never heard about this
particular symbol, so I asked her a number of normal questions -- what was the context of the symbol,
was it on anything, were people around. After about the third or fourth question, I remember thinking
"oh my gosh she saw this in a ritual". I got up and closed my office door, and she became the first person
to disclose. I spent a lot of time talking with her. Her case eventually led to a police investigation with
essentially no results, but the pressue of trying to make sen se out of her account led me to begin a fairly
large, and I think, in-depth, investigation of satanic allegations. That investigation led to the publication
of three academic articles on the subject.
And even now, about seven years later, I still from time to time get new accounts. There is one person I
have been trying to talk to for about six years. I now get accounts and queries through the internet oddly
enough through e-mail. People hear about me, and contact me and so on.
Wayne Morris:
When you say ritual abuse, what do you mean by that? What constitutes ritual abuse?
Dr. Stephen Kent:
Ritual abuse is any kind of systematic patterned disempowering violations. Ritual abuse can take place
in a wide variety of contexts. They don't necessarily have to be religious in nature; however, ritual abuse
is systematic, patterned, disempowering violations -- can take place in any kind of deviant religious
setting. It is simply the case that many of the accounts that have come to me suggest, if the allegations
are true, that the people involved in the alleged violations, believe that they were engaged in worship of
demonic figures -- what we would call "satanic figures". But I hasten to add that the issue around ritual
abuse can go on in mainstream deviant settings. There was a case reported in the Toronto Star a couple
of years ago about a healing group in Toronto in the sixties that had collapsed unto itself, and got
involved in very abusive ritual abuse of children. (See Toronto Star, Judy Steed, Feb. 12, 1995 "Priest
tells of cult horror in dad's rectory: Sixties cult - story and he adlines in 1968 tell of a report condemning
Canon G. Moore Smith of St. Matthias Anglican Church in Toronto for using bizarre rituals and
brainwashing to control parishioners" )
Wayne Morris:
And what would be the ritual aspect in that case? I am not familiar with the case in the Toronto Star, but
in a general sense, if it is outside a religious context, what is the ritual aspect?
Dr. Stephen Kent:
In the allegations of ritual abuse that are say, outside a religious context, these kinds of abuses could
involve a perpetrator who serially violates one person or one child repeatedly. In these cases the kind of
violations would be patterned and the patterning can be important from the victim's standpoint because
each time the abuse begins, the victim knows what's coming, having been through it several times
before. You hear from many victims and alleged victims, that they dissociated, that they suddenly "rose
up to the corner of the ceiling and were gone", that they created different personalities to take the abuse.
Probably they were able to do so because they had been through ritual patterns many times, and they
know things at age 3 and 4 what is coming down the road, so they escape the only way they can. These
are often children, even adults are disempowered and can't do the normal kind of reaction which is either
to fight or flee. Consequently, these people, especially children, flee the only way they can, which is
psychologically. Emotionally they dissociate.
Wayne Morris:
How prevalent is multiple personality disorder of some sort among the children coming forth with
claims of ritual abuse?
Dr. Stephen Kent:
Well, keep in mind that I am not clinically trained so you always want to take what I say about clinical
psychological issues with a grain of salt ... but my experience suggests that quite a number of people
who claim to have been severely, repeatedly sexually abused as children manifest what appears to be
multiple personality, dissociative identity, and so on. Some considerable debate exists in the
psychological and psychiatric literature about the reality of multiple personality, and it does seem that, in
my own non clinical sense, that some kinds of treatments by psychiatrists, psychologists and counsellors
can make these conditions worse, but I am convinced from the people with whom I have spoken that
what is often called multiple personality disorder does exist in and of itself, and that existence can stem
from repeated abuse, especially children.
The first person with whom I spoke made allegations about having ritually abused, but as an adult. It
was an important case for me because it seemed very clear that she had dissociated, but she had not
formed personalities. My own sense about the dynamics of the formation of multiple personalities
suggests that it is most likely to occur among people whose personalities are not well formed -- that is to
say, fairly young children. It is probably easiest for them to create fantasies because all the elements of
their personalities -- who they are, their relationship to family, to friends, their social sense of
themselves -- those aren't particularly well developed yet. So, again, when adults go through systematic
ritual abuse, it doesn't surprise me at all for them to say they dissociate, frequently have memories come
back in floods or rushes that they can't control. But I don't see the adults forming multiple personalities
unless the abuse happened at a young age as children -- again, I am no t clinically trained, but that's what
my experience suggests to me.
Wayne Morris:
And in your experience with a lot of the people you have come in contact with that have claimed or
made allegations of ritual abuse as a child, do you find that a high percentage of these do have some
kind of dissociative disorder.
Dr. Stephen Kent:
Again, not being clinically trained, I can only give my impressions, but yes, it certainly seems very, very
clear that many of the people with whom I have spoken talk about different personalities, will describe
in some detail the processes of dissociation. They will give me diaries that have different handwritings,
sometimes they will be talking to me and they will go into different voices. I remember one vivid
example. I was talking to a person with whom I have been in contact for a long time -- she called me,
and she was in some kind of distress. I said "I will call you right back," made some phone calls, and
returned her call. Five minutes. This person was 30 years old, and sounded like a five or six year old
when I called and she answered the phone. It was the same person, but it sounded like her in a different
personality. I suggested that instead of staying in her apartment all day -- it was a beautiful day -- there
was a big festival going on in Edmonton -- I suggested that possibly s he could go out there to get her
mind off of these things. The little tiny voice said that, "oh, I can't ride the bus," and I knew this person
rode the bus all the time, and I said, "why not?" And this little voice said, "because I can't read." And
there was no indication that this person was making up these issues. In her case, she was one of three
daughters, and a second of her sisters also was in treatment for what at the time was called multiple
personality disorder. So two of the three sisters in this family had very bad psychological problems. And
you have to ask the question, "well, how does something go so wrong in a family? Is it a genetic issue or
is it environmental." That is to say, is there a bad gene in the family, or did these two sisters go through
fairly horrific systematic abuse that caused personality fragmentation ...
Wayne Morris:
Can you tell us what similarities there are in the accounts of the survivors, especially by those where the
abuse happened when they were children?
Dr. Stephen Kent:
There is some research on the similarities of accounts. All of them, all of them talk about severe
emotional abuse, sexual abuse. Many of the accounts contain references to ritual murders, murders in
which these people claim they were sometimes forced to participate. Many of these accounts talk about
ritual murders in the context of sacrifices. The sacrificial descriptions almost always involve drinking of
fluids out of a chalice or bowl. It is remarkable how many accounts contain descriptions of what sound
like chalices. Some people who claim to know or speculate as to what the fluids are in the chalices, and
almost always suggest that it is blood, or a blood mixture. Sometimes people suggest urine might be
mixed in. Lots of stories about eating flesh, about a victim being killed, and parts of the victim cut off
and given to people to eat. Sometimes these people talk about being forced to eat parts of the alleged
victims, and so on. Almost all the accounts contain people in robes. Sometimes the robes are different
colours. High ceremony -- that is to say -- there are some accounts of people being abused at the end of
say, poker games or something -- but most of the accounts that I get contain allegations of rituals where
there seems to be a leader performing systematic ceremonies involving daggers -- often involving
chants. When someone mentions chants, without trying to lead them, I try to get them to talk about the
chants. And many, many of the people say the chants are not in English, they just couldn't understand
them. It is remarkable in these kinds of small details to get these general kinds of similarities in stories.
Sometimes -- very frequently -- most frequently both, if not one -- will be involved in the allegations.
Sometimes relatives. That is a very quick overview scenario about the content.
Generally I find that many of these accounts are broadly similar in content, but usually different in
details. Part of what I have tried to do is to collect accounts, wondering whether accounts from
independent people ever would match up. One way of doing this kind of qualitative research is to get
similar accounts from unrelated people. To get these kind of accounts, then you have a fairly good
indication that something may have happened -- it is always important to rule out extraneous features, ie.
the media, the same therapist, and so on. I get similar accounts with different details.
I was actually faced with a real dilemma. How could one explain these broad similarities, but
particularly, the differences. These accounts were coming from people in various countries -- people
giving accounts of alleged rituals that were happening in various countries. Literature was coming out of
Europe, Australia, South Africa, and so on. I was faced with a real dilemma. How could one possibly
make sense out of all these similar accounts from all over the world, that were different in detail? I spent
months trying to figure this out. I finally came up with a possible answer, it was so terribly simple. One
estimation is that if these groups existed, then they were all inspired by a similar source. When I tried to
figure out what a common source was, I spent months going through very esoteric arcane occult books --
and the material so abstract that it just didn't ring true that some of the farmers, or teachers, or real estate
people about whom people were making allegations -- and military personnel, and so on, could have
understood these texts. The more possible answer was that people may have been inspired by sections of
the bible. That is to say, if one looks in the Hewbrew bible old testament, there are lots of discussions
about the God, Yahweh, in competition with the very pagan gods, Baal, Ashteraph, and so on. Pagan
gods required human sacrifices, especially child sacrifices. Moreover, in the Christian new testament,
Jesus is recorded as talking a fair amount about the power of satan ... Jesus always claims power over
satan ... but it is very clear in certain portions of the bible, that satan is the god of this world.
It struck me like a thunderbolt -- that if people were deviant and they were striving for what they
considered to be power in this world, and they operated in a religious context, one possible interpetation
is that they would go to various portions of the bible, and whenever God or yahweh instructed them not
to do something, they would construct rituals to do exactly what God said not to do. Moreover, Jesus
talks about the power of satan, or uses satanic images to dismiss his opponents, then deviants would
construct ritual around those satanic images. With that focus on the bible as being a possible source for
deviations around the world, for me the mystery got solved. then of course, the issue became more
complex.
A number of religious books, scriptural books and quasi-religious books, have influenced and had an
impact on groups around the world. So we have different Mormon texts, different Masonic texts, and so
on. And these books could be the sources of inspiration for deviants inside of those traditions. It is
certainly the case that mainstream Christians, mainstream Freemasons, mainstream Mormons would be
appalled at the stories I have heard. And again, I cannot tell you that these accounts are definitive, or
true, but nonetheless, normal members of these traditions would be shocked, appalled to hear the kinds
of things I have. But every tradition has its deviants. Moreover, every tradition probably has its sexual
deviants. So if people are striving for power in this world, and happen to be a member of these particular
traditions, it is plausible to me that they would pick images in these traditions and twist or distort them.
It is also possible too that there could be sexual deviants who want to sanctify, to give a religious
overview, or hue to their deviant sexual activities; consequently they could offer up their sexual
deviances to what they consider to be a higher power, in this case, satan or some variations thereof in
order to give their deviations this kind of higher, overview sanctification.
Wayne Morris:
How do you know that people haven't picked up these kinds of inspiration from the media itself, or
entertainment, particularly horror shows and shows about satan and so forth? How did you rule that out
as the source of this?
Dr. Stephen Kent:
Well, it is difficult to rule it out definitively, but one thing I do is simply ask people, and you cannot
always assume that people give accurate answers, but more strikingly, some of the images people were
giving me, are not ones that I have seen in any media accounts or outside sources. That is to say, they
involved issues the people themselves could not make sense of. Some very obscure things. It took me
years to find what could be plausible explanations for some kinds of activities. If you like, I can give one
or two examples. One example that comes to mind is a person who talked to me about having a mouse
put in her mouth. I got this account a number of years ago, and at the time I had not a clue about what
that could have meant. Well I was fortunate to get the account on tape. Several years afterwards,
Maclean's Magazine had an article about a federal commission that was going across the country
interviewing women about family violence. And the magazine had about two sentences on what it called
"ritual abuse". The two sentences said something like, "among the worst accounts that this commission
has heard involved a woman in British Columbia who talked about having mice put in her mouth," and it
went on to another statement I will come back to. {see: Status of Women Canada, Federal Report,
Ottawa 1993 "Changing the Landscape: Ending Violence, Achieving Equity - Chapter 4 'Under-
Acknowledged Forms of Violence'}. The other statement was one the Maclean's article linked to the
bible. By that point I had already figured out that a possible source of inspiration was the bible, so I went
running to my Concordance, and looked up "mouse, or mice". There it was. In Leviticus, in the ___
Laws where Yahweh is telling followers which foods are unclean, one of the unclean foods was mice, so
if you are trying to offer homage to a god in opposition to the Judaeo-Christian God, whenever Yahweh
says not to do something, you can start a ritual around it. So if Yahweh says, "don't eat mice" you put
mice in people's mouths in a ritual setting. The other passage in the Maclean's article referred to the
woman saying she had been "whitewashed", she had a white paste or paint put on her body. The article
traced that activity to a passage in the New Testament, I believe it is in Matthew, where Jesus is railing
against his opponents, I think in this case, the Pharisees. He says something like, "and you opponents are
like whited sepulchres, or whitewashed tombs" in some translations. "White on the outside, but inside
full of death, decay and rotten bones." Many of my people talked about having something painted on
them, and sometimes they talk about colours, white, or white and black, sometimes they don't know
what it is that is s meared on them. If their accounts are true, it could be a paint to indicate that their
bodies are like whited sepulchres, whitewashed tombs, or gravestones. Or it could be some
hallucinogenic, could be bug repellent, although I doubt it.
It is instances like that where people tell me very obscure facts that they can't make sense out of, that I
have never seen, at least at the time, in the media, that I have never seen in any kind of horror shows, or
what-not. Issues that make no sense to them, that make no sense to their therapists, make no sense to law
enforcement officials, and yet people are convinced that these are the experiences they have been
through. These kinds of facts that are strongly suggest to me that they didn't get them through external
sources such as the media, or external therapy sessions.
Wayne Morris:
This just seems so horrific and outrageous what these people are giving accounts of ... and I think a lot
of people will find it hard to believe that ritual abuse exists, and it goes on. How do we know it's
happening, and what attempts have been made by law enforcement or researchers to corroborate this, or
to prove that it does exist, or it doesn't exist?
Dr. Stephen Kent:
The received sociological or socio-scientific wisdom now is that these accounts most certainly do not
exist. I hold a minority opinion on that. Or at least let me say that I am far more open to the possibility
that some of these accounts are in fact accurate. When the accounts first started coming forward, they
attracted quite a lot of attention in the therapeutic community as well as in the media. It didn't too long
for a backlash against the accounts to come forward, and also I think, a growing skepticism on the part
of law enforcement. Many law enforcement agencies would undertake investigations and not come up
with the kind of definitive proof they would need in order to state clearly that these recovered memories
were in fact accurate. Several years ago, some researchers did a large survey, I think they contacted
11,000 people in law enforcement and therapy and so on, who themselves claimed to have received
some 12,000 sets of allegations. According to the study not one of them had been definitively proven.
A lot of social scientists would say that we have to look at other kinds of explanations for why they
occur. In my own case, I am much more open to the possibility that some of these accounts are
essentially accurate. I maintain this open-ness for a number of reasons. I am familiar with the content
and the dynamics of some police investigations. Among those investigations of which I have some
familiarity, a few of them have been in my estimation conducted quite properly. That is to say, they got
accounts, and the accounts didn't match. In other cases, however, I am far less pleased with the nature
and the content of the investigations. Keep in mind that investigations on this issue are very
complicated. They usually involve allegations of abuse that happened years, and in some cases, decades
ago. People who come forward with these allegations are usually imprecise about times, dates, the
people involved. Sometimes, very frequently, the people making the allegations put restrictions on who
inve stigators can contact because they are very panicked. I know there was one big investigation in
Western Canada where quite a number of family numbers were coming forward with allegations of
abuse. The police at one point went to the father, and said, "Sir, we hate to tell you but your daughters
are talking about having been ritually abused by neighbours." Only afterwards did the daughters have
memories of the father being involved in the ceremonies. But of course, by that time, had there been any
evidence, the father and his friends got rid of it as soon as he got tipped off by the police. When I see
activities on the part of investigators like the one I just described where there were multiple people
making allegations, and police not handling the investigation well ... I suspect that in some of those
12,000 cases there was bad investigation.
I have done a couple of investigations and sometimes parts of people's stories pan out, other times they
don't. I had one very articulate, intelligent person who said, "find this shed ... it was owned by (she
named the person) ... look in the far right hand corner five feet over, five feet down, dig and you will
find a pickled fetus." Law enforcement wasn't interested, so I went out with a local reporter, found the
shed, we got permission from the current owners to dig. First indication of problems was that the corner
of the shed identified had something over it that had been there since the time she was in there, so we
started changing corners, and we dug and we dug and we dug, and found nothing. We flew her out to
that shed, and she dug with us, all of which we have on videotape because we were so certain we were
going to find something, and we found nothing. Here we had a very clear, precise memory. We go there
and it proved to be wrong. So I have learned that the mere intensity with which people believe
something to be true, is not a necessary indication of accuracy. This harmoniousness between intensity
and accuracy has appeared in some psychological research. But it is also the case too, that in some of the
accounts I have gotten a level of corrobative evidence which points in the direction of the accounts being
essentially accurate. Part of the trouble with say, police investigations, is that police are under some
pressure to get cases closed. Academics, on the other hand, can stay with a case for years. So I have, you
might say, the luxury of working on these allegations over the span of a career, whereas police officers
often are only on a case for a matter of months. Moreover a lot of the police who get involved with these
investigations have little, if any, background not only in cases of sexual abuse but also investigating
ritual allegations. And finally, the police departments tend to be sexist institutions. They may not be the
best type of individuals to be able to d eal with the content of what comes out in these allegation
scenarios, so in no way can I, or should I, dismiss such a large study that points out 12,000 cases, none
of which have been definitively proven.
But I know from the inside that investigations are much more complex than people would ever imagine,
and a number of factors can go on as part of the institutional nature of police work to derail
investigations. If police get allegations about a body they found yesterday, or they found in a ditch then
police departments are willing to throw enormous resources to try to solve that crime. If in contrast,
allegations come forward about a murder that happened 30 years ago, there is no body, there are no
artifacts, and so on ... and some of the perpetrators are dead ... the ability of police to commit resources
to it are very limited.
Wayne Morris:
Well understandably, it is much more difficult to prove those kind of cases that happened decades
before. What percentage of the cases, for example, of those 12,000 had some kind of corroborative
evidence?
Dr. Stephen Kent:
I would have to go back and look at the study and find out. There were also studies done in Britain that
have more or less dismissed the existence of intergenerational satanic abuse, although it did
acknowledge that some sexual perpetrators could use images as part of the control mechanisms, or the
abuse scenarios in their illegal or criminal activities. To find out exactly what percentage in these studies
may have used satanic symbols, I would have to go back and check. What you have in the academic
community now, are a number of social scientists, some prominent law enforcement officials, even some
people in the psychiatric community who are saying that ritual abuse allegations involving
intergenerational deviance are simply not true. In contrast you have a couple of academics like me who
are saying that we should slow down to rushing to judgement here. You have a number of counsellors
whose experience inside the safe confines of their offices, tell me different stories from what the larger
research apparently reveals. You have an intense division within the academic and therapeutic
communities, this intense division immediately spills over into implications not only for counselling, but
for court cases and so on. The debates are quite serious and consequences are quite important.
Wayne Morris:
I know there are a number of states in the U.S. which have an active statute specifically about ritual
abuse, and there is proposed legislation in many other states. Has there been any legislation in Canada
specifically dealing with ritual abuse, that you are aware of?
Dr. Stephen Kent:
I am not aware of any specific legislation in Canada. Some people would say that existing legislation is
adequate -- that sexual abuse is sexual abuse, regardless of the kind of content or context in which it
occurs. So many people say that no need exists for new legislation.
Wayne Morris:
Have there been any convictions in Canada where there might have been some ritual abuse elements or
specifically, of ritual abuse? In those cases, how was the issue of ritual abuse handled?
Dr. Stephen Kent:
Prescott, Ontario is a tragic but fascinating instance of ritual abuse -- that is to say systematic, patterned
abuse involving intergenerational perpetrators in a community context. There were literally hundreds of
people involved including both perpetrators and victims. Some small indications exist that the
prosecution, perhaps wisely, didn't pursue that some of the people were involved in satanic rituals in the
context of these abuses. The name in the Prescott investigation -- Joshua -- Joshua was supposedly a
little brother who one of the victims indicated was murdered. Police never found any bodies or bones, so
they cannot ensure that this little fellow actually existed. There was discussion that he had been
murdered, and that the murder had involved satanic ritual.
Wayne Morris:
Was there documentation of his birth?
Dr. Stephen Kent:
Not as far as I know. My information is secondhand from Judy Steed, so you will want to talk to her
about it. I have spent a far amount of time, however, with one of the prosecutors and one of the
counsellors. In some ways the Prescott, Ontario case is something of a model for the systematic careful
way an investigation should be handled. {see: Our Little Secret: Confronting Child Sexual Abuse in
Canada, by Judy Steed, Random House of Canada, Toronto, 1994}.
Wayne Morris:
Have there been other connections with child pornography in some of the other cases, or accounts of
cases of ritual abuse that you have come across?
Dr. Stephen Kent:
Allegations about child pornography are very widespread. Again there hasn't been the kind of definitive
proof that I would need to be able to say these allegations are true, but I do have some accounts where
people who are now adults who talk about some adult, usually a father, farming off the child for reasons
of child prostitution when they were younger. This happens in more accounts than you might think, and
I have a fairly recent account of this activity in the case I am working on right now.
Wayne Morris:
How many people have you come across who have been giving accounts of ritual abuse, and what is
your sense of how widespread this is?
Dr. Stephen Kent:
I stopped counting a while ago, but it was well above seventy and these people, in terms of their contact
with me, may range from a simple phone call. Many of the people eventually let me turn on a tape
recorder and tape their stories. People send me diaries, journals, letters, and so on. I have internet e-mail
messages, so I get contact from a wide variety of people. Again, when you ask how widespread is this
phenomenon, I would be very cautious in terms of speaking as a social scientist where, in order for me
to make a scientific statement, I have to have unimpeachable evidence that I could present to you or
other researchers that would lead everyone to come to the same conclusions. I cannot give that kind of
definitive research, evidence. What I can do is provide a great deal of suggestive evidence, and because
the evidence is still suggestive, it is very important that researchers not close the door yet on the
possibility that some of these allegations are true. Having said that, with the appropriate social scientific
qualifications, I have gotten reports from people right across this country, from people inside the US,
from people who grew up in Britain ... I did a telephone interview with somebody in Australia although I
believe her alleged abuse took place in this country. I have seen published accounts in qutie a number of
European countries and other countries, other English-speaking countries, so something is going on ...
Critics would say that therapists in all these countries have received the same sort of shoddy training ...
well ... it is the case that therapists can induce or accentuate existing problems. In a couple of instances I
have seen the negative impact of therapeutic intervention very dramatically -- but again, many therapists
with whom I have worked, seem to be quite competent, quite caring and moreover, quite professional.
That is to say, these therapists are very attuned to issues about not leading clients into memories, not
using any kind of recover techniques that might impede or bring into question the content or quality of
what they are remembering, and so on. For me the extent of ritual abuse is still an open question. It is
not an open question to many of my colleagues.
Wayne Morris:
Do you think there have been an increasing number of allegations coming forward in recent years, or do
you feel the ritual abuse of children is a new phenomenon or ...
Dr. Stephen Kent:
Absolutely no indication exists that the abuse of children is a new phenomenon ... if anything, I would
suggest that child abuse could have been worse in the Western world in earlier historical periods and no
doubt it is pervasive in other parts of the world, especially in some developing countries. What
sociologically interesting is the outbreak of the number of accounts that have occurred fairly recently in
this country, in Canada. The earliest account I have come across about alleged ritual abuse was from the
Winnipeg Free Press in 1959, a person from Britain was on a speaking tour and had given a lecture, I
believe in British Columbia, although the WFP picked it up, talking about a child sacrifice that had
allegedly happened back in his home town in Britain. I even tried to talk with him but to no avail. Going
through the literature in the 1960's, because I have done a lot of work on the counter-culture religions of
the late sixties and early seventies, there are a couple of very chilling accounts that appeared in these
alternative press contexts ... one in Texas, one may have been in California ... where reporters went to
rituals and in one case the reporter said it was very clear that the person tied up was about to be
sacrificed, and he fled in panic. So we have a couple of accounts of satanic activities in the late 60's by
people who wrote about it before there were any kinds of debates about whether ritual satanic abuse
went on. This did not necessarily involve intergenerational satanic abuse, but certainly they contained
strong indications of ritual sacrifice and various kinds of violations. Many people would say that the rise
of the women's movement at the end of the 1960's paved the way for feminist therapists and therapists
being more sensitive to issues about abuse against women and children -- certainly it seems to me that a
number of women finally felt permission to come forward with these accounts believing that therapists
or the commu nity at large finally would gi ve them a voice, would listen to them.
Interestingly, and sadly, one of the accounts I got from a 50 year old man -- just terrified, absolutely
panicked -- who complained he could not find a counsellor who would let him talk about his ritual
abuse. He said all the counsellors he ran into were working with women, and they had no experience
with men, and he was just badly traumatized. So ... people would locate the cultural and you might say,
therapeutic, permission to come forward with these accounts in the context of the more sensitive
environment for issues about abuse. Of course there has been a backlash against issues and allegations
about child abuse, and abuse against women. It looks like the False Memory Syndrome Foundation is
the most dramatic, but a number of other organizations have claimed that parents, often men, are the
victims of these allegations and these bad therapeutic techniques. It is a complex world from cases in
which it seems very clear that parents or alleged abusers were in fact wronged. There have been a
number of cases where parents have successfully sued their adult children's therapists for "leading" them
into these memories. There have been some cases in Ontario where therapists were using questionable
techniques that seemed to induce memories amongst clients.
But some of the backlash is combined with attempts to cover up ... that is to say, some of the people who
are involved in the denial of the reality of levels of abuse, almost certainly have been perpetrators
themselves. Consequently their attempts to deny the reality of abuse is another form of abuse. Very
nasty debate, very nasty debate ... sometimes involving extremely clever people so it is difficult for the
people in the public to sort out what is accurate versus what is nonsense versus what is another form of
abuse cloaked in pseudo scientific terms.
Wayne Morris:
...In an already complex issue to begin with. What is your sense of how many women versus men have
made allegations of being affected by ritual abuse, and how many of them have accounts of it happening
when they were children versus adults?
Dr. Stephen Kent:
When I had about 55-60 people, I made a count, and it was just a handful of men who have spoken to
me. I would be reluctant to give an exact figure, but a tiny proportion of people who have come forward
to me are men. There might be some reasons for that. My general impression is that men in our culture
are far less willing to go to therapy about abuse. Men seem to have a tradition of being required to
swallow their emotions, bury them, hide them, and so on. I heard of one person who would not speak to
me because he had a high profile job and he was afraid in doing so, his life would fall apart. And he
would lose his job. I had one person speak to me about it one time, and months later I had occasion to
call him back, and he said, "I said it once, and I am getting on with my life, you have got the account,
don't call me again." And that was his way of coping. Most of the accounts I get are from women, but it
is important to say, by no means all. It is important to say that, because in many of the accounts I get,
little boys are involved as abuse victims. If these accounts are true, then where are they?
Wayne Morris:
Well I have also heard suggestions that a lot of the male victims of this abuse end up in jail, that they
have behavioural problems because of the abuse, and many of them end up in prison.
Dr. Stephen Kent:
It wouldn't surprise me. Just as a general scenario that many child sexual abuse victims themselves -- it
sets them off in very difficult lives. One of the vicious tragedies of child abuse is that it steals from
children the ability to build their emotions on a solid and healthy and loving emotional background.
Without that background, all other human development is very shaky ... all the stages of human
development they go through is built on a house of cards, built on a foundation where love and
tenderness get confused with other kinds of emotions and deviant activities. So it wouldn't surprise me
that a lot of people who are abuse victims, not to mention even ritual abuse victims, would wind up in
prison, treatment centres. Many of the people with whom I have spoken have had difficult combatting
substance abuse of various kinds, but it doesn't appear that the substance abuse caused the memories. It
seems more plausible to me that the memories caused the substance abuse.
Wayne Morris:
Again, how many of the people you have worked with have reported abuse as a child, or as an adult?
Dr. Stephen Kent:
One of the issues that comes up is whether the adult, when they were children and allegedly being
abused, reported it to anybody. And from time to time people say they did in various ways, but if these
accounts were to, say a school nurse back in the fifties, the chances of that school nurse being around are
very slight. The chances of that school nurse remembering that account are very slight. It is the kind of
fact that is very difficult to find. I had one person who was trying to track down a family doctor because
she is convinced that he knew about the alleged abuse she was going through. So getting hold of old
records is very, very difficul ... that kind of hard documentation that has gone on. Interesting debates, or
developments, that have gone on in the False Memory Syndrome Foundation about the issue of early
confirmation ... what is so extraordinary about FMSF is that the debates swirl around a number of high
powered academics. The founders were Ph.D.'s ... he was a math professor, she was a professor of
educational related fields. The daughter is a Ph.D. psychology professor at University of Oregon. As
these debates swirl, the brother of the father who co-founded FMSF, wrote a letter saying that he
suspected the allegations of child abuse in the household were true. It is not definitive proof, but here
you have one family member speaking out against another in support of the adults' alleged victim. Very,
very complicated issues about the Foundation. Probably the most complicated story about verification
comes in the context of the McMartin pre-school case. This is one that both sides use as verification of
the accuracy of their accounts. As you know a number of children came forward with ritual abuse
accounts in a nursery or day school run by the Buckey family. A mother and a son were indicted. I think
it was th e largest trial in California history ...
We have been listening to Dr. Stephen Kent, a Sociology Professor at the University of Alberta in
Edmonton. He spoke about the phenomenon of similar ritual abuse allegations internationally, and the
common thread of how they seem to be engaging in behaviour in defiance of parts of the bible. There
are an increasing number of people making allegations that they have been ritually abused by family
members and cults. We have also heard in other shows on this series on Mind Control how ritual abuse
has been used by government mind control doctors as a way of further traumatizing child victims of
trauma based mind control. Stay tuned next week as we continue this interview with Dr. Stephen Kent,
and for people who are interested in transcripts of this radio series, they are available at www.mk.net/
~mcf ... that's the mind control forum ... you can just look under the CKLN Radio series title. Also tapes
and transcripts will soon be available at the offices of CKLN in Toronto for anybody intereste d in
picking up any of the previous shows. This is show number 23, and we are going to be continuing this
series.
Wayne Morris:
Good morning. This is show number 24 in a series on Mind Control, each Sunday morning from 9.30 to
10.30 on CKLN. Today we are going to be hearing Part 2 of an interview with Dr. Stephen Kent a
professor of Sociology at University of Alberta in Edmonton. We talk about the False Memory
Syndrome Foundation, ritual abuse and cults, and allegations against Freemasons involvement in group
sexual abuse of children. Later in today's show we will hear coverage of a ritual abuse conference that
Dr. Stephen Kent spoke at in Thunder Bay in 1994. But first, the second half of the Stephen Kent
interview:
Dr. Stephen Kent:
... I think the largest trial in California history ... and they got off ... the son was re-tried and he got off.
One of the factors that prevented conviction sounds like very sloppy interviewing techniques on the part
of a key therapist. Nonetheless the kids had made allegations that there were tunnels under the school.
Police dug and didn't find tunnels. This is very damning evidence from a law enforcement perspective,
and from a jury's. Now, the kids say there are tunnels. You look for them, you don't find them.
Problems. In the midst of the second trial, the property had been sold and the school was about to be torn
down, bulldozed. The parents hired a private archeologist to do a last-minute dig. Sure enough, he found
tunnels. He found very tunnel-like structures that the children had been talking about. One tunnel led to
a building next door to the daycare centre, which was awfully similar to what the children had in their
accounts. He found a plastic bag with a copyright date on it from 1986, which indicated that these
tunnels had been filled with dirt some time after 1986. He had evidence of tunnels, evidence that the
tunnels had been filled in recently with dirt and various debris, but the evidence never came up in the
trial itself. Once again, you have a very complicated case where therapists probably did a bad job of
interviewing, police may have done a very bad job of investigating because it took a private individual
to find the tunnels. The evidence never wound up in court.
Wayne Morris:
Since you brought it up, what is your opinion on the FMSF in terms of the work they are doing? What
do you think the effects they have had on the field of dealing with this abuse?
Dr. Stephen Kent:
Some of the so-called "science" the FMSF has advocated is bogus. The bottom line is if they serve a
positive function at all, it is to make therapists much more rigorous about the kinds of interview
techniques that go on. But much of what the FMSF advocates goes certainly beyond "science" and
enters into the realm of literal harassment. At times the kinds of unprofessional, and I was going to say
undignified, but that's probably not a term the social sciences should use ... but certainly unprofessional
interventions that the mother used against the daughter when she was up for promotion at the University
of Oregon ... writing letters against her on FMSF letterhead ... is beyond the pale in anything that should
go on in a scientific context. It is a family tragedy as well but it shows that the group is not nearlly
committed to objective science but is also committed a kind of ideological advocacy that often dismisses
contrary facts. Moreover part of the danger of the FMSF is their cleverly coined term "false memory
syndrome", which if you talk to people in the mental health community, is a misrepresentation of what a
syndrome actually is. So it put into the legal context and cultural context a very catchy word that may
actually misrepresent the delicacy with which science is trying to get at some of these memory issues.
Moreover, I have a particular problem with at least one section that an FMSF person wrote, Richard
Ofshe co-authored a book, "Making Monsters" and he is involved with the Advisory Board of the
FMSF. Ofshe was involved with a satanic ritual abuse allegation case in Olympia, Washington. This is
the fa mous Paul Ingram case -- Ingram was, I believe , the third highest ranking cop in the Olympia,
Washington police force. His daughters and wife were coming forward with allegations about sexual
assault and abuse, and some of those allegations shaded into satanic ones. He got arrested, and his arrest
was quite disturbing to the Olympia police, his buddies arrested him. They brought in Richard Ofshe
because they knew of his work with so-called cults, what they didn't realize was that Ofshe had worked
with allegations of forced police confessions. From spending time with the cops, Ofshe got suspicious
that they may have been leading Paul Ingram into their questions, so Ofshe met with Paul Ingram and
created on the spur of the moment what the literature at the time called "a little experiment". That is to
say he made up this story, gave it to Ingram, and then waited to see whether Ingram would create
memories around the story. The trouble is the story he made up was close enough to what he had been
saying, it could have been true, or at least elements could have been true. When Ofshe reaches the point
of writing "Making Monsters", he describes the "little experiment" and it becomes an "experiment" ...
that is to say he misrepresents a hunch or the spur of the moment, poorly designed, poorly implemented
query that he initiates, and elevates it to the level of a scientific experiment. In fact when a judge was
ruling upon one aspect of the case, the judge dismissed Ofshe's "little experiment" for being
unprofessional in design. There is a lot about the book one could discuss, but in terms of sociological
comments, that goes beyond bordering on misrepresentation about what happened.
Wayne Morris:
Do you know any other information about some of the other people on the FMSF Advisory Board?
Dr. Stephen Kent:
I do know a bit about Ralph Underwager. You have probably gotten the Ralph Underwager story from
other people, but Underwager was a so-called expert in hundreds of child abuse cases, always on the
side of the defence, that is to say Underwager is the person who would proclaim ideodological
difficulties in children's accounts, would proclaim children were too young to know the difference
between right and wrong, between lying and telling the truth. He would try to punch holes the
prosecution's charges in a number of ways -- and he was testifying in cases around the world.
A couple of things finally happened with Underwager. First, the notorious case in Australia regarding a
child abuser, "Mr. Bubbles". The Australian equivalent to the US tv program, Sixty Minutes, did a
devastating critique on Underwager's alleged credentials. Around the same time a New England group of
social workers commissioned a study by a well-respected psychologist who worked on child abuse and
assault and systematically researched the work that Underwager and his wife, Hollida Wakefield, had
published and the Underwager-Wakefield scholarship was abysmally bad. It misrepresented facts,
statistically it was bad, gave interpretations to minor points in major articles and sometimes
misrepresented the points of major articles. Underwager essentially was not doing science. So
Underwager as an expert got discredited in many places, although interestingly he still became an expert
in the Martensville, Saskatchewan case. More damaging, perhaps, to Underwager's reputation was when
he gave an inte rview in a Journal called "Paedika", it's a pedophile journal out of Amsterdam, Holland
in which he said peculiar things about the supposed right of pedophiles to show their love to children
any way they wanted. Because of that Paedika interview, Underwager was forced to resign from the
FMSF Advisory Board. His wife, Hollida Wakefield, as far as I know, is still on the Foundation's Board.
One of the people on the Board whom I know a little bit about, is Dr. Margaret Singer. She had a long
history of working with so-called contraversial religions, what some people call cults. She testified on
behalf of Patty Hearst back in the mid 1970's. Much of Margaret's work has been in the context of
supporting parents who had a significant strain with the counter culture movement, in which Margaret
was intimately involved -- concerned with helping parents re-establish contact, or, if you will get back
their adult children who had converted to contraversial religions. She had done some interviews with
alleged satanic abuse people but was not convinced by them. Her involvement on this FMSF Board
seems to be part of her continuation of support for parents, a continuation of her work with the so-called
cults, and possibly with the Hearst family itself. She is a person on the Board who I suspect is very well
intentioned, but she is also a supporter of the family. From evidence I have read about the dynamics of
the Freyd family, when the kids were growing up, makes that family clearly dysfunctional. I would
question Margaret Singer's judgement through her support of the Freyd parents on this particular
instance, regardless of the kind of work she does previously fighting abuse in devious religious or
therapeutic contexts.
Wayne Morris:
Are you familiar with Dr. Jennifer Freyd's (daughter of Pamela and Peter Freyd who founded the FMSF)
recent book, "Betrayal Trauma"? She has a theory around that ... what do you think of it?
Dr. Stephen Kent:
I am aware of it, but can't really comment directly on it. I have a graduate student who just read it, and
was really quite impressed by it. What's impressive about what Jennifer has done is that she has taken
the personal experience of family tragedy and transformed it into research opportunities. Many of us are
in academics because it gives us a vehicle to get at, and engage in the world. It gives us a somewhat
systematic and rigorous way to engage in the world. In her case, she is working on very complicated
personal issues, but through the rigour of science. As far as the content goes, you would have to rely on
other people to get specifics about the content and its accuracy.
Wayne Morris:
We have been talking about cults and other organizations that are allegedly involved in ritual abuse. Can
you name any of these groups?
Dr. Stephen Kent:
I am not sure of the groups you have been talking about ... let me say very generally that many of the
contraversial groups that I hear about are involved in patterned, systematic abuse of their members, often
children. People always ask for names and naming groups is always very difficult because of potential
lawsuits and whatnot. I can talk about some of the published research that I have done and I most
comfortable with this because it is in the public realm already. I had done a study of the leader, founder
of The Children of God, now called The Family, David Berg, because the group's doctrines had been
highly sexualized. It is impossible to understand this group without appreciating the sexual content of
their doctrines ... which essentially come directly from its leader. I had written this account, it had been
accepted in the Journal of Research in the Social Scientific Study of Relilgion, was supposed to be
published by JAI Press out of Greenwich, Connecticut. The Children of God - The Family - found out
about the publication before it came out. They contacted a lawyer in California. The lawyer in California
wrote a letter to the publisher, an academic who had not even read the piece, and a group representative
himself wrote a letter to the publisher, all insisting that my article not be published, and none of them
had even read it. The publisher, Herbert Johnston, did not have liability insurance for his company, and
so for fear of a possible lawsuit, he withdrew the article. I had the page proofs in my hands at that time,
that's how close the piece was to coming out. What I had argued in the piece was that David Berg
himself had gone through some unfortunate sexual experiences himself as a child, that took place in a
very restrictive, abusive Christian environment ... a Christian environment that was by no means healthy.
It also involved the use of corporal punishment and so on. David Berg had a great deal of sexual
confusion, thi s exploded into the theology he developed when he gained control of the group in the late
sixties - The Children of God. So, in essence, Berg translated his sexual confusion into group theology.
People could pretty much guess what I was going to argue from the title of the article and so the group
has essentially carried out academic censorship. Now the article ended up published, but the place where
it got published was a far less prestigious journal.
What we often find in cases of contraversial religions that abuse, is that these groups do not have
independent monitoring agencies or bodies, that is to say the place where abuse is most likely to happen
are in independent religious organizations whose leadership controls any kind of overview agencies who
might look at any kind of board of directors. Having said that however, we know that clearly there has
been a long history of child abuse in churches that have this hierarchical management - the cases of
abuse in residential schools by Anglicans, the United Church, and of course, the Catholic Church. What
happens in these instances, for example the Catholic Church, is that the organization becomes
committed to preserving its own public image and preserving its own financial status. Moreover in the
Catholic Church, we've got pressures inside the organization to maintain numbers of priests. There is a
problem in North America in getting young men into the priesthood, so to open up the practic es of
priests to examination by external agencies threatens the sheer numbers, not to mention image, financial
matters, and so on. The Catholic Church in many ways has participated in cover ups of early allegations
of abuse and the church very clearly now says these policies have changed but every now and then you
hear about very aggressive tactics that lawyers representing the church take for its clients. By no means
have you heard the last about abuse within mainstream religious organizations. I have concerns about
abuse that may be going on in overseas communities where the public ability to gather information and
discuss it is not so nearly well developed. In North America we have a press that, despite a number of
rather unfortunate constraints on it, from time to time gets out very good stories. For example the kind of
work you are doing now, where people talk about very contraversial issues in a public forum - a lot of
countries overseas don't have these kinds of structures.
I know in a number of contraversial groups that I study - groups that have headquarters in overseas
countries or ethnically based in overseas countries - many times children from North America end up
being sent to a school overseas. When they get sent to these schools overseas, they are separated from
their parents, and they are working in environments that have few, if any, external controls. So the
possibility of these kids getting abused in these schools is much, much higher than it would be if kids
operated in a public school system.
Wayne Morris:
Now I know you have spoken about the involvement of the Masonic Lodge or some members of the
Masonic Lodge and allegations towards them of being perpetrators of ritual abuse. Can you talk about
how you first received this information?
Dr. Stephen Kent:
Early on in my research when people were coming forward with accounts, some accounts appeared
about deviant Freemasons - some of the people making allegations were indicating that their fathers had
been Freemasons and that somehow their alleged abuse they thought was connected with the Lodge or
Freemasons. Occasionally, abuse accounts, and I can't say definitively, but if they were true, seem to
have occurred inside Masonic Lodges and so on. I was really quite perplexed by the appearance of
Freemasonry in a fairly significant number of accounts. I was not getting any allegations about other
kinds of philanthropic or civic groups. I was not getting accounts about Kiwanis or Lions Club or
Knights of Columbus or Rotarians or whatnot, it was only allegations about deviances involving
Freemasons sometimes in Masonic Lodges. My sense all along is that even if some of these allegations
are true, ordinary Masons would be appalled about the allegations I was hearing but nontheless, I was
faced with the dilemma of trying to make sense out of what I was hearing. I undertook an investigation
about Freemasonry, and I had already published an encyclopedia about Freemasonry several years
earlier, in the 2nd edition of the Canadian Encyclopedia so I had some background. What I found is that
related to Freemasonry are countless splinter groups involving just men, sometimes women get
involved, in traditions involving high ceremonialism, elaborate ritualism and so on. For example if one
goes back several generations, one can even find Masonic connections to a group like the Solar Temple.
These are people who, I often call them "ritual junkies". They love the pomp and ceremonialism that
they see in Freemasonry, but they want to go further with it. Freemasonry does not have a developed
sense of a demonic figure in it. There aren't these kinds of rigid satanic vs. god images that appear in
Christianity. What I did find however were some mentions of Lucifer, but more importantly the sense in
some of the upper level rituals, that God was a threefold character. Jahbulon, Jahweh - 'bul' referring to
Jahweh - The Ba'al reference is a reference to pagan gods in the bible, old testament gods who required
child sacrifice. Ordinary Masons would talk about the god, Jahbulon, and not really think too much
about what they were saying. But it is plauible to me that Masonic deviants, these people I call "ritual
junkies", might see in this figure you combine both good and evil, you combine a higher god with a god
who requires child sacrifice. It is part of my attempt to come up with a plausibility structure as to why
deviant Freemasons may be involved in these kinds of allegations, I found a point of entry, you might
say, that would allow deviant practitioners to develop rituals in the context of what they thought could
be worship to a higher god.
Wayne Morris:
The people making allegations against certain of these deviant Freemasons - do you have a sense of
what positions they held within the Masonic organization, whether they were lower or higher ranking
Masons?
Dr. Stephen Kent:
I don't know for sure. I know that some of the people who have made allegations (that haven't been
proved) have named fairly high ranking Masons. I also know that some ordinary members hear these
allegations and they are in desbelief -- to these Masons, these allegations are part of a long history of
persecution towards them because of the secrecy and so on. It is certainly not my intent - I have no axe
to grind with Freemasons. It is a peculiar group in the context of issues about women's rights and
equality and so on - and so there are ways to discuss Freemasonry in the context of male exclusiveness
and so on, but I have no axe to grind with the Freemasons at all. Once I got I challenged on the Masonic
issue, I started finding out there are people right around North America who have also made allegations
that they have been ritually abused by Freemasons. There are a number of organizations based in the
States that specifically insist that deviant Freemasons had abused them. Even in Canada, there is one
organization whose leader is absolutely convinced that she is a survivor of deviant Masonic abuse. So
when I was able to see t hat the accounts I was getting were part of a l arger North American context, I
became even more intrigued with the kinds of specific allegations I had been receiving.
Wayne Morris:
As you said, the Masonic Lodge has had a long history of being persecuted. Is there any indication that
the allegations being made against them may be part of some kind of propaganda campaign against the
Masonic Lodge?
Dr. Stephen Kent:
I am very wary of so-called information that comes out of a conservative Christian context. A number of
conservative Christians see Freemasonry as being involved in forms of the occult and devil worship, so
organizations that are related to these conservative groups and the information they put out is highly
suspect, so I do my best to stay away from that kind of information. I don't get the sense though from
most of my informants that they have these kinds of axes to grind about Freemasonry. They don't seem
to be involved in these conservative Christian contexts. Most of them have no interpretative context in
which to place their own memories about the Freemasons. For them they feel extremely isolated with
these kinds of accounts. They have no sense of other people in North America making these kinds of
allegations. I cannot place most of the accounts that I have received in a context of some sort of
vengeance against the Masons.
Wayne Morris:
Do you feel that the people you have come in contact with making allegations have any kind of
knowledge of what Freemasonry is about?
Dr. Stephen Kent:
I certainly don't get that sense from people. Again, these are people for the most part women, and as you
know women are excluded from Masonic ritual and practice, so it wouldn't be impossible for them to
gain internal knowledge about Masonic rituals, but it takes a lot of effort. You have to go out and
actively seek the information. I just don't get any sense that these people have a vendetta, or at least most
of the people, against Freemasonry.
Wayne Morris:
Within the accounts coming from the survivors, do you get the sense that what they are telling you in
terms of the rituals, are specifically Masonic, are there specific Masonic elements to the rituals
themselves?
Dr. Stephen Kent:
Some of the contents of the rituals seem to take place in Masonic Lodges. Many people talk about alters,
many people talk about black and white floors, some people talk about pillars in the ceremonial area,
and so on. I have had some people who have had these memories, and try to get a context for them,
because their fathers are Masons. They will actually try to get into Masonic Lodges so they can look at
them and see if the Lodges have any semblance or similarity to what they are recalling. Ordinary
Masons would be appalled at these kinds of things. I have no absolutely no indication that any ordinary
Masonic ritual is involved ... anything even close to child abuse. It's the deviants within Freemasonry,
and possibly some of these splinter groups that hold the most concern for me. It is entirely plausible for
me to imagine that deviant Freemasons would pull some material from some of the extremist writings of
Aleister Crowley or take some of his statements about children and sex literally, or take some of his
statements about child sacrifice or human sacrifice and take them literally and build rituals around them.
The Crowley-ites insisted that he was talking metaphorically, but if it is written down, any tradition is
going to have fundamentalists and literalists. People who read it, think it is true, then act upon it.
Wayne Morris:
Are you aware of what the response has been from the Masonic Lodge to the allegations concerning
ritual abuse, and has there been any attempt at any kind of internal investigation?
Dr. Stephen Kent:
I am not aware of any kind of internal investigation. I met with some Masons in Thunder Bay and my
impression was that what I was talking about was so far from their experience inside Freemasonry, that
they couldn't even grasp what I was saying. It would be unfortunate to make judgements based on a
meeting of just a couple of hours, but I had no indication that these particular people were involved in
any way with what I was hearing. In fact, during the meeting they invited me to explore Freemasonry
and I declined the invitation. I think most Freemasons say these allegations are nonsense. I had one
practicing Mason contact me, because he was concerned. I had another practicing Mason contact me
because he saw me as part of this anti-Masonic movement and thought what I was saying was dangerous
and inaccurate. I have had some responses from Freemasons but not a lot. I have some friends, not close
friends, who are Masons and this stuff seems to be wholly outside their experience but I have gotten
repeated accounts, and they are similar to those from right across North America.
Wayne Morris:
I would like to thank you very much. It has been extremely fascinating talking to you, and thanks for
joining us in this radio series.
Dr. Stephen Kent:
It is my pleasure to speak about a very contraversial and contentious issue.


Peter Tooey Interview
This next segment is part of CBC-CBQ radio Thunder Bay coverage of the Making Up For Lost Time,
conference/workshop series dealing with ritual abuse that took place in 1994-95. We are going to hear a
response to the allegations of Masonic ritual abuse by Peter Tooey, a retired police officer and Mason
living in the Thunder Bay area. I would like to thank CBC-CBQ radio and producer Don Edwards for
allowing us to include this coverage in our series. You are listening to CKLN 88.l
DON EDWARDS, CBC-CBQ RADIO
Joining me now in the studio is Peter Tooey. He is an active member of the Masonic Order here in
Thunder Bay. Mr. Tooey, welcome to the program. You have just heard the interview we ran, and I am
sure you heard about the conference on in Thunder Bay. How much credence do you give these
allegations of ritual abuse by Masons?
Peter Tooney:
None whatsoever. If I can explain, Gerald. The funds that were put forward by the Ministry of the NDP
government was for a workshop on ritual and sexual abuse. There has been a lady within the
organization locally that is sponsoring this so-called function, and all the more luck to them. I have no
objection to that. In fact, if we could have any input into it, we would be happy to. But the fact that she
has now mentioned an organization, namely the Masons, and accused them of a horrendous crime I
think is totally irresponsible. And I think there is an onus on The Stone Angels now to have this person
come forward and substantiate the claim, okay? Failing to do that, it is a total irresponsible, spontaneous
utterance by this lady, and I am talking about Lynne Moss-Sharman.
Don Edwards:
What are you going to do about it?
Peter Tooney:
I am trying to counter it by talking to people such as yourself. We are not backing off in any way. If
someone wants to talk about the Masonic Order, I am here to discuss that.
Don Edwards:
Well you know, I want to talk to you a little bit about the Masonic Order. When listening to Dr. Kent a
minute ago, he said it was possible that Masons "might", he said "might" because of the cases he has
investigated over the years, "might" be involved in this without any support from the Masonic Order
itself. Do you see that as a possibility?
Peter Tooney:
No. I can take even an article in The Toronto Star on January 9th, if I can. This is an article by Donna
Laframboise. She is a freelance reporter with that organization and her bottom line says that a study
released last fall by the National Centre on Child Abuse and Neglect in the United States had examined
nearly 12,000 allegations of satanic ritual abuse and found not one could be substantiated. This was
funded by government money, just two weeks prior to this thing. Now the government, this is the NDP
government, has given another $15,000 to fund another organization and this same lady's bottom line is
saying, "so tell me how do I get $15,000 government money to hold a conference about something that
doesn't exist?"
Don Edwards:
Well Mr. Tooey, what's the bottom line here? Why are so many people accusing the Masons of this?
Where is this coming from? Out of the thin air? I mean, there are a lot of accusations not only in this
province, but as we have just heard, in Alberta as well. What's happening?
Peter Tooney:
What you heard from Dr. Kent was that he has received reports, none of them have been substantiated,
and he is the first to indicate this. It was indicated by him in his news release to the Chronicle Journal.
Don Edwards:
But why do you think you are the target? I mean it isn't the Lions Club, the Rotary Club, Elks Club --
why the Masons?
Peter Tooney:
There is and always has been, an anti-Masonic movement. In fact one time in the United States there
was an anti-Masonic party. This has gone by the board. I don't know. I can't speak for those people. I can
speak for myself, as a Mason, and by no means am I giving the official word of the Grand Lodge of
Canada or the Province of Ontario, or of the eight Lodges in the city. I can tell you what Masonry is
about. I can tell you that they and the organizations that are involved with them donate over $540,000
MILLION DOLLARS to charitable organizations. That comes out to about l.4 MILLION DOLLARS A
DAY and they fund things such as RESEARCH INTO SCHIZOPHRENIA, to autistic children, to the
Shrine Hospitals, to the Sick Children's Hospital, the help fund, Hearing for Every Living Person. They
give upwards of I don't know how many hundreds of thousands of dollars for bursaries to university
students, for Masons and non-Masons.
Don Edwards:
Mr. Tooey, do you think it would be useful for the Masons to look into this at all, or simply just to
dismiss it?
Peter Tooney:
The Masons are totally aware of this. It has been discussed at the Grand Lodge Hearings. I will tell you
one thing. Masonry is a private organization, such as the Elks, such as any fraternity within the city. It is
not a religious order. It's main principles are to make good people better, okay? It doesn't profess to be a
religion, although they have ministers, they have people from every walk of life who belong to it.
Throughout the world, there are 6 million Masons which if you take the world population, is a very
minority.
Don Edwards:
I guess for a lot of people, there is a sense of secrecy about this group, that perhaps they are not as well
known as the Lion's Club, they are not as open perhaps as again to use an example the Lion's ... how
would you react to that?
Peter Tooney:
I don't know why you would say that. The Masonic buildings in Thunder Bay, as in any other city, are
recognized by the Grand Lodge of Canada and the Province of Ontario ... they are well marked. You
mentioned the Legion. There is the Ortona Legion on Dease Street, which I am a member of. There is
also the Masonic Lodge or Temple on Dease Street.
Don Edwards:
Okay, can anybody join the Masons, let's put it that way ...
Peter Tooney:
If you have strong moral beliefs, if you believe in the Supreme Being, you could apply to join the
Masons. One of the requisites is that you must be 21 years of age, have good moral character. The only
person I would say who can't join the Masons, is an atheist because he doesn't believe in the Supreme
Being or God. It does not restrict membership on any basis of race, colour or creed, or religion. So any
religion, any race, any colour.
Don Edwards:
What sort of screening process are people put through when they do join?
Peter Tooney:
Masonry in the first place does not pursue members. The person who joins the Masonic Order must ask
for an application and volunteer to join. When they file their application, it is put before the Lodge, and
it's gotta be sponsored by two members. They have a Character Committee that interviews not only the
Mason, but also the Mason's Family because it is not in our realm to take food off the table, or to cause
dissension within the family. What we want to know, not only from the Mason, is he able to join, can he
afford it, is his family behind him on this? If his spouse or members of the family are a little upset, we
try and urge the person to reconsider and down the road, if things change, then we would be glad to see
him come again. It's not within our realm to cause dissension within that family union.
Don Edwards:
Mr. Tooey, do you feel personally attacked in any way about what has happened? How do you respond
personally to this?
Peter Tooney:
Personally, when I read the article, I was appalled. And I am speaking not only as a Mason, but as a
citizen of Thunder Bay. And I base this on a few principles. Namely if a parent hears a complaint from a
child, they are bound to listen to that child and believe it, because that's within the family unit. If a
person goes to a therapist and lays a complaint, the therapist has an obligation to believe that person and
that's the only way they can get to the bottom of it. I have no objections with these things at all. And this
is what this conference should have been all about. But when a person in a responsible position comes
out and makes a public statement, accusing an organization of this alleged abuse that she suffered, then I
think it is irresponsible on her part if she does not come forward and substantiate that. And failing to do
it, I think should result in one of two things. She should be asked to retract it, or she should be asked to
step down, particularly because the funding for this conference comes from public money.
Don Edwards:
Mr. Tooey. Thanks for joining us this morning.
Peter Tooney:
My pleasure.
Kathy Alex:
....creating a controversy in Thunder Bay. A professor at the University of Alberta is to lead a discussion
on ritual torture by Masons. Survivors of abuse can attend, so can social workers. But one Mason who
wanted to attend has been told the meeting is closed to him, and other Masons. Shane Judge reports:
Shane Judge CBQ:
The four day long workshop begins Wednesday. It is put on by a group calling itself The Stone Angels.
Lynne Moss-Sharman speaks for the group. She says there are sixty people in Thunder Bay who say as
children they were victims of organized, repeated physical and sexual abuse by adults. They say this
abuse took place within the context of a ceremony that had a religious, magical or supernatural
connotation. Peter Tooey doesn't have a problem with a government grant going to The Stone Angels to
study ritual abuse, but the retired police officer and active Mason says he is upset he can't hear what will
be said about Masonic ritual torture, especially after Moss-Sharman has said publicly there are victims
in Thunder Bay.
Peter Tooney:
I am upset that an organization, namely the Masonic organization, has been smeared by this lady and as
a result I feel we should have recourse to address people at that meeting, and to see if this
unsubstantiated complaint if there is anything to it.
Shane Judge:
Moss-Sharman says there is nothing wrong with taxpayers money being used to hold a closed meeting.
She says it is done to protect the safety and confidentiality of the survivors:
Lynne Moss-Sharman:
I find it really ironic, and in some ways I guess, amusing, that a white male secret society would kick up
such a media fuss about not being allowed into a meeting or a gathering because no one is allowed to go
their meetings, or their rituals ...
Shane Judge:
Moss-Sharman says Tooey can find out all he wants from the professor on his own before or after the
workshop. He (Dr. Stephen Kent) will be speaking Friday night.
Shane Judge, CBC News Thunder Bay
Wayne Morris:
No you are not listening to CBC. This is CKLN 88.1 and we just heard an interview done by CBC in
Thunder Bay with Peter Tooey, a retired policeman and Mason, speaking to the allegations of ritual
abuse against Freemasons.


Judy Steed Interview
In the final segment this morning, is an interview with Judy Steed, again as part of CBC's coverage for
Making Up For Lost Time conference, a ritual abuse survivor workshop series put on by The Stone
Angels in Thunder Bay and funded by the Ministry of Community and Social Services, Ministry of
Northern Development and Mines, and Ministry for Women's Issues. Judy Steed is a reporter for The
Toronto Star and has covered issues of child sexual abuse and ritual abuse.
Don Edwards CBC-CBQ:
We are joined by Judy Steed. Judy is with The Toronto Star and she is first on the podium at the
conference. Judy, thanks for joining me on Northwest Noon. How do you know ritual abuse exists?
Judy Steed:
I encountered it very unsuspectingly when I was assigned to cover a trial in 1991 of a man named Billy
Elliot who is from Prescott, Ontario. I didn't know that I was going to encounter my first ritual abuse
trial, but lo and behold, the police had evidence that Billy Elliot had been in the habit of digging up
bodies from the graveyard, pulling the heads off skeletons, and engaging in these kind of makeshift,
basement rites where a bunch of adults would dress up in costumes, disguising their faces and they
would sexually abuse children. This has all been documented. The adults all corroborated each other's
stories and they were convicted, so that was my first glimpse into this kind of group sexual abuse of
children, or ritual abuse.
Don Edwards:
Have you had your eyes opened since that first glimpse.
Judy Steed:
Yeah, and I have to say I understand why people don't want to believe that this stuff happens, because it
is really frightening and horrific, but I think that if we think about even what we have seen on these
Airborne Regiment tapes about the ways that these men behaved in groups, that this is a type of group
behaviour - these initiation rites are on a spectrum that relates to this ritual abuse conference and the
type of activity that we are talking about.
Don Edward:
Is there a certain profile on these types of individuals Judy?
Judy Steed:
From what I have seen so far, you are looking all across the so-called socioeconomic spectrum. In
Prescott the people were "white trash", they were people who had been on welfare for generations and
basically seemed to have nothing to do but sit around all day and abuse children. But since I wrote a
piece in The Star last week saying that ritual abuse does exist and recounting some of my experiences
within my research, I have received a letter from a woman minister in the Anglican Church whose father
was the leader of a cult back in the 1960's. Naturally I was skeptical about this claim, so I went through
and (this is part of a breaking story I am working on right now) looked through our research files, and
sure enough in 1968 there were these banner headlines about Devil Cult Priest who had been running
this cult out of St. Matthias Anglican Church in downtown Toronto and a young teenage girl had died in
this cult. I am going to interview the daughter of this Anglican minister, but this just goes to show that
here is another case from 1968 that was documented, there was a coroner's inquestion, there was all this
kind of publicity into it, but we all forget. We don't know these things have happened in the past.
Don Edwards:
Eyewitnesses are critical in something like this. Did this daughter actually see her father involved in the
cult?
Judy Steed:
Yes. It was a group and she grew up in it. As she said to me on the phone, she watched the evolution of
her father into this cult fanatic.
Don Edwards:
People don't want to believe this goes on. How much testimony is there out there that ritual abuse
actually exists?
Judy Steed:
From what I have seen, because we are talking about behaviour that is on the spectrum as we know - we
can talk about the initiation rites that used to happen at fraternities - most of those have been banned
now because young people were getting killed. I remember my father telling me about initiation rites at
Queen's University in Kingston at his medical school back in the thirties, and the kind of grotesque
tortures, and that a young man died then. So that is linked to the Airborne Regiment stuff, and to gang
rapes which we also know have happened, and then there was a story last week in Cambridge, Ontario
where a little two year old girl died in an exorcism cult where the mother and father and next door
neighbour were involved in this so-called charismatic prayer cult where they were exorcising evil
demons from this little baby, and she died. This is another example of cult activity that is right out there
in plain view if you will.
Don Edwards:
Judy, when you get to the conference, what points are you going to try to establish with everybody then?
Judy Steed:
Because I am not an expert in any deep way, I am just a reporter, and I just cover stories, so I can only
talk about what I know is real, and what really exists. I am going to talk about linking the obvious
contemporary examples that we see around us, which I think are pieces of the puzzle about this aspect of
human behaviour, of abusive human behaviour in groups, and how peer pressure in different kinds of
groups can force people who are otherwise decent people to do things that are otherwise unspeakably
horrible. I think it's an aspect of human behaviour that terrifies us. Look at what happened in Nazi
Germany. There were otherwise decent German people, but because of peer pressure and because of the
dominant ideology of the Nazis, these otherwise decent German people did hideous things to the Jews ...
killing them in the concentration camps. As I try to grapple with it myself, and why we go into this state
of this frenzy of denial - I think it is because this behaviour makes us sense how thin the veneer of
civilization is, and I think it terrifies us about the potential for brutal anarchy and I am trying to
understand in a compassionate way what causes the frenzy of denial.
Don Edwards:
You know that this conference is already under a lot of fire, for a number of reasons. How significant do
you think the conference is?
Judy Steed:
I think it's extremely important, and I think it is amazing that it is happening in Thunder Bay, and
perhaps it could only happen in a smaller centre. Thunder Bay has received an enormous amount of
publicity across the continent now because you are hosting the first conference that I know of that is
dealing up front with ritual abuse and with many other contraversial subjects, and the Masonic abuse
aspect is also very interesting and I can understand again why many Masons would be very upset and
feel that their reputation is being impugned. But I think this relates also to the Airborne Regiment and
we have seen all these distinguished retired members of the Airborne Regiment saying that the Regiment
should not have been disbanded, and it was a wonderful Regiment, and I am sure there were lots of good
people in the Airborne Regiment, just as I am sure there are lots of good Masons who don't know what
other Masons may be doing.
Don Edwards:
One last thought to you Judy. Why did you agree to come and talk to the people here?
Judy Steed:
Because I feel that as a journalist, our responsibility is to really seek the truth, and to shine the spotlight
on aspects of society that we haven't looked at, and that's what I am paid to do, and I am in a fortunate
position that I am able to do it without negative repercussions to myself, so I am happy to participate in
seeking the truth about a very contraversial issue.
Don Edwards:
Thanks for joining us today.
Wayne Morris:
That was an interview with Judy Steed, author of "OUR LITTLE SECRET: Confronting Child Sexual
Abuse in Canada", Random House Canada, Toronto, 1994. Next week we will be hearing an interview
with Lynne Moss-Sharman, the coordinator of the Making Up For Lost Time conference and also the
Canadian contact for ACHES-MC, the Advocacy Committee for Human Experimentation Survivors -
Mind Control. Currently ACHES-MC is engaged in a campaign to call for US Presidential Hearings and
a Canadian Commission of Inquiry into the mind control experimental abuses. Transcripts of this series
are available at www.mk.net/~mcf You have been listening to The International Connection here on
CKLN 88.1.


Interview with
Lynne Moss-Sharman
ACHES-MC Canada Contact
Producer/Interviewer Wayne Morris:
Good morning. You have tuned into another International Connection for another Sunday, and we are in
the midst of a radio series on mind control in Canada and the USA. Last week, we heard an interview
with Dr. Stephen Kent talking about ritual abuse allegations against Freemasons. Also as part of CBC's
coverage for the Making up for Lost Time conference/workshop series, put on from November 1994 to
June 1995 in Thunder Bay by a group called The Stone Angels. We heard Peter Tooey, a Mason in
Thunder Bay respond to allegations of Masonic ritual abuse. Also we heard an interview with Judy
Steed about the subject. Today we are going to hear an interview with Lynne Moss-Sharman. Lynne is
the Canada contact for ACHES-MC (Advocacy Committee for Human Experimentation Survivors -
Mind Control) and she was the coordinator for the Making Up For Lost Time conference. We will go to
that interview now.
I am on the line now with Lynne Moss-Sharman a survivor of mind control experimentation, and an
advocate for other survivors. Welcome to the International Connection Lynne.
Lynne Moss-Shaman:
Thanks Wayne, I am really glad to be speaking here this morning.
Wayne Morris:
I wonder if you could briefly describe for our listeners what had happened to you. I will get into more
detail, but just kind of summarize what happened to you.
Lynne Moss-Shaman:
I am a survivor of child mind control experimentation which was funded by the CIA, primarily in the
1950's in Southern Ontario and in Upper State New York. I grew up in Toronto until age 3 on Elm Street
and Maria Street near the railway tracks, and then spent the rest of my childhood and adolescence in
Hamilton.
Wayne Morris:
Just before we go into more detail about what you went through, I would like to talk about what you are
doing now. You are the founder of The Stone Angels support group. I wonder if you could talk about
that.
Lynne Moss-Shaman:
The Stone Angels was formed in Thunder Bay in 1993. I had been in therapy myself for quite a long
time, and began to come in contact with other survivors of cult ritual abuse at that point, and was able to
speak with over sixty adult survivors of ritual cult abuse. Many of them are from Thunder Bay and
Northwestern Ontario, but a great number of them had moved here from other cities in the country.
There was a great need to begin asking for services to be provided for survivors, and we began
producing The Stone Angels Journal in 1993 with Volume 1 of survivors' writings and drawings, and I
have just been working on completing Volume 6b on Mind Control In The Modern Age. We essentially
began bringing cult ritual abuse to light and that progressed, as we began to hear more from survivors,
into the dialogue about the mind control experimentation that had in fact been going on all over the
country.
Wayne Morris:
You focused on specific issues with your release of The Stone Angels information package. Maybe we
could talk about the different issues that you have released, and what they have focused on.
Lynne Moss-Shaman:
Again, initially it was an overview and personal descriptions of having gone through cult ritual abuse,
and then we began to realize that a great percentage of the survivors had also been involved in Masonic
cult ritual abuse. Their fathers or their grandfathers were Masons or Shriners, again in different parts of
the country, and we started looking much more closely at that because it seemed to be a common thread.
Once the Presidential Hearing had been conducted in Washington in 1995 and the survivors of
childhood mind control experimentation came forward with their testimony and that became part of the
public record -- we were then able to publicly come forward with the information about the mind control
experimentation that had been described by certain survivors, and the military connection began to come
in there, and again the Masonic was also a common thread. Volume 6a was the first issue that we
devoted entirely to mind control in Canada and it gives a bit of an historical perspective from World
War II onwards, and Volume 6b brings in more experiences, drawings and documentation by American
survivors. It's really curious to see the similarities between the experiences of women and men who were
raised in Canada, as Canadian citizens, and those experiences described by USA citizens. It seems that
wherever there was an American military base in Canada ... we started looking at NORAD and the DEW
Line ... wherever there was an American military base we would then see a clustering of survivors who
had grown up there, if not on the base itself, then as part of the community that was adjacent to a
military base.
Wayne Morris:
Can you tell us typically how children are introduced to this sort of thing?
Lynne Moss-Shaman:
There is a certain element of intergenerational cult abuse, but the common denominator again is that
usually the father was in one of the armed forces - either Canadian or American - and whether there was
a predilection for pedophilia and cult involvement prior to that particular father joining the military is a
question that really needs to be answered. Almost all of the survivors - certainly over 90% - describe
having been either consciously or wittingly offered up to the cult abuse and then to the mind control
experimentation that followed. This wasn't a situation where children were secretly taken away from
their parents during the day or on overnight visits or weekend visits elsewhere. There was conscious
knowledge by either one or both parents and they were actively involved in making sure the children
arrived where they were supposed to arrive. This is especially devastating. There is a really big
statement that needs to be made at this point in history as well. When we think of the Third Reich and
when we think of Hitler and the Nazis targeting for extermination 'the Other' - what happened following
World War II is that the survivors who are coming forward are the generation of children who were
offered up by their own families.
Wayne Morris:
This is something that is just so hard to believe - how a parent could offer up their own children to this
kind of thing - but I think we have to put things into context here and what, primarily the fathers, have
been involved in. You mentioned that very often the father is in one of the various armed forces, and
also involved somehow in cults. What kind of cults are participating in this, and you mentioned the
Masonic as well? Is the cult part of that structure or does it operate as a separate thing?
Lynne Moss-Shaman:
If we start looking at the people, the men, who are put in positions of power in the military, in the
government, in any given municipality - and again say across Canada, and again certainly across the
United States - the white male secret society, the Masons, seems to be a prerequisite for having any sort
of authority and they have traditionally certainly been involved in the military itself. I believe all but two
Presidents of the United States were Masons - Ronald Reagan was inducted into the Scottish Rite in the
Oval Office of the White House - and certainly the cults are very secret and they practice behind the
scenes, so to speak, in Anglican Churches, Episcopalian Churches, the Mormon Church ... a number of
churches have come forward. Research has been conducted by Dr. Stephen Kent, a sociologist at
University of Alberta who researches cult practices, deviant religions and it is a focus of his work that
the Masons seem to be the secret society who come up over and over again whenever cult practices are
disclosed by survivors or investigated by researchers.
Wayne Morris:
I understand you had organized the Making Up For Lost Time conference in Thunder Bay back in 1994,
which was really the first conference of its kind - a very important one because of that. What were your
experiences organizing that conference, and what did you hope to accomplish?
Lynne Moss-Shaman:
At the time of applying for grant applications to hold Making Up For Lost Time - it was actually a series
of three conferences that began in November 1994 and ended in June 1995 - at that point I had come in
contact with over sixty survivors of ritual abuse in childhood, just here in Thunder Bay alone. Many of
the agencies here in the city had become fairly open about the number of clients they were seeing, and
everyone was looking for information. The goal of Making Up For Lost Time was to bring the
information and the experiences of survivors and of therapists as well into a community context so that
people would be able to receive some education and instruction on how to deal with clients, including
children, who were coming in with these problems. Also to put it into the abuse continuum in a sense as
well, that this was severe childhood sexual, ritual trauma and that it had to be included in the abuse
continuum. In a sense it was a way of making the information available, and to make it safe for people to
begin talking about it. It was also really, really essential to bring the survivors together and this was a
survivor-driven conference - it wasn't organized by an agency- it wasn't organized by professionals.
Wayne Morris:
What level of community involvement did take place at the conference?
Lynne Moss-Shaman:
We designed the conference so it was appropriate for both Native and non-Native agency workers. We
had representation and participation from Beendigen, the Native women's shelter and now women's and
men's counselling unit, and they work with children too; the Canadian Mental Health Association; the
Children's Aid Society; Ontario College of Physicians and Surgeons; the battered women's shelters here
in Thunder Bay - and we actually received our direct sponsorship from Faye Peterson Transition House;
representation from Confederation College; the Refugee and Immigrant Women's Office; Family
Services Thunder Bay; Ojibway Family Services; Geraldton Mental Health Services; Hoshizaki House -
a northwestern Ontario based shelter for battered women; the Indian Friendship Centre; Kenora Sexual
Assault Centre; Lakehead Psychiatric Hospital; Lakehead Regional Family Centre; Lakehead
University; the London Sexual Assault Centre; the Ojibway Tribal Family Services; Meno Bimahdzewin
Child and Family Services; the Ottawa Sexual Assault Support Centre; Oakland Place - Women in
Crisis, Algoma; People Allied for Change Through Empowerment, the psychiatric survivors advocacy
group in Thunder Bay; the Plummer Hospital Sexual Assault Care Centre in Sault Ste. Marie; Thunder
Bay Police; representation from Toronto Rape Crisis Centre; representation from the Wunnemin Health
Council which is a band council service group from a reserve that is primarily Ojibway speaking. We
had students who volunteered and participated from the Department of Social Work and Psychology,
including post graduate, from Lakehead University. Students who volunteered from the Departments of
Aboriginal Studies and Social Services at Confederation College. There was also registration from post-
graduate studies in psychology from Carleton University and the University of Manitoba in Winnipeg.
Wayne Morris:
So a lot of these groups were looking for information and to sensitize themselves to these issues. Did
you get feedback from them afterwards as to what they got out of the conference?
Lynne Moss-Shaman:
I think the people who attended obviously were people who had come across it in practice, and were
unable to locate any information or to concretely receive any validation that what they were
experiencing wasn't an anomaly, peculiar to their own lack of experience. I think a lot of people who
have worked in direct service with children and adolescents and adults, whether it is in addictions or in
corrections or in direct crisis counselling - a lot of people have been really quite frightened when clients
start to describe what has actually happened to them. And the information is so horrifying, I can't
imagine how overwhelming it would be to a worker in a small agency, or a worker in an isolated area to
hear their client describe what had been done to them and not really be able to put their hands on any
information or have any peer consultation about this. It is certainly a taboo in our society to begin
with ... There was a great relief and empowerment and strengthening that came about in the service
providers themselves, and a lot of networking began.
Wayne Morris:
And the survivors themselves who attended the conference - how did they feel empowered by the
conference?
Lynne Moss-Shaman:
For many of the survivors - and they came from Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, all over Ontario and
one survivor from New Brunswick - for some it was the first time they had ever attended any sort of
gathering where they were able to meet other survivors. I think one of the most empowering aspects was
that a lot of the material was being presented in an academic, objective way -- survivors came to realize
that they weren't alone with their perceptions or their experiences -- but that this issue was being taken
seriously by a broader research and service delivery community. Just to be there as a survivor, and to see
40 other women and some of the men who were coming forward at that time was tremendously
empowering for survivors. I saw many of them begin to speak for the first time. You take away the
element of being "crazy", being isolated ... I saw some of the survivors begin to give material to students
who were seeking information. One survivor actually made a videotape of one of her flashbacks which
was to be used by three mental health workers out in the region. People began information sharing and
they became less fearful for their own safety as well when they realized how many other survivors were
out there. There was a great deal of laughter. I have to say that as well. Many survivors are really
creative, and very bright people who are excluded in many ways from participating in society at large
because they have such a hard time functioning. On that level alone, being able to laugh, and to share,
and to speak the same language with other survivors - it's hard to put into words what being able to be
understood by other people, other women who have gone through the same thing - how much that
means.
Wayne Morris:
I can imagine that survivors who are trying to articulate what happened to them in the general public
would be met with incredulousness and would find it very hard to come out and speak about it.
Approximately how many survivors did attend the conferences?
Lynne Moss-Shaman:
There were approximately 40 survivors who attended each of the three sessions. I was actually quite
amazed at the number of survivors who did attend, but I had seen so much fear, and a lot of it was
validated fear. Survivors have ended up in hospital from being stabbed or beaten up, they are threatened
and harassed by cult members - it was a very dangerous thing to do - a very courageous act for a
survivor to come to a gathering.
Wayne Morris:
Who else did you invite to the conference to speak from the academic world or from the therapist
community?
Lynne Moss-Shaman:
The first workshop that was held in November 1994 - the primary presenter at that one was Shirley
Turcotte who is a registered clinical consultant and therapist based in Vancouver, B.C. A lot of people
know Shirley from the NFB film that she made called "To A Safer Place". Shirley is a survivor herself
and a therapist. She was born to a Native father and a non-Native mother in Winnipeg where she was
raised, and it was a cult setting. She was used for child pornography as well. Shirley was an
extraordinarily dynamic speaker. We also invited at that time, an Elder, Louise Shebagegit from
Sabiskong Reserve near Nestor Falls, and Louise was there 24 hours a day throughout the duration of
the conference there in the hotel. She was able to act as an Elder, and provide protection and healing for
anyone who was having a difficult time or who wanted to seek the guidance of an Elder about it.
When I first called through to Nestor Falls to try and find Louise and ask her if she would come and do
this for us, one of her relatives answered the telephone. The message was delivered to Louise,
secondhand in a sense, and we asked if she would come and help The Stone Angels at this conference.
When I went to pick Louise up at the bus terminal, there she was, having arrived on the Greygoose Bus
with her medicine bag and her gym bag with her clothes - and she was really surprised when she met
me, because she thought Hell's Angels had invited her to come to Thunder Bay to do a healing! And she
gathered up all her courage, and there she was at the bus terminal, ready to act as an Elder and as a
spiritual advisor to Hell's Angels, and we had a really good laugh about that one.
I just thought any Elder who was prepared at the drop of a hat to come and work with Hell's Angels had
a lot going for her spiritually ...
Then that was followed by the January 1995 portion of Making Up For Lost Time. That was a more
involved list of presenters. Judy Steed spoke - she had at that point just released "Our Little Secret:
Confronting Child Sexual Abuse in Canada".
Pam Gummer and Ruth Chamberlain-Belagus were the two social workers involved in the Prescott
Community Advisory Committee on multi-victim, multi-perpetrator crimes against children, spoke as
well. Pam and Ruth had been involved in the case in Prescott where 50 adults were formally charged,
and I think about 234 children were rescued from situations where ritual abuse was involved. All of the
adults who were charged were found to be guilty. Pam and Ruth, because of their direct family-child
agency service orientation, were very, very important to have speak to our community itself. They spoke
about the procedures that they had to go through in order to ensure that the children's interests were
served - the documentation that they obtained, the testing they had to go through. One thing that really
stayed in my mind was that they had to set up a quonset hut for art therapy - they needed a really large
facility because there were over 230 children who had been impacted in a multi-generational setting in a
very small community.
Another presenter at that conference was Dr. Louise Million. She is a psychologist, and co-author of
"Breaking the Silence" - the report on the abuse and torture experiences of First Nations people in
residential schools - that report had been commissioned by the Assembly of First Nations.
Another speaker was Dr. Connie Kristiansen, who is a psychology professor at Carleton University in
Ottawa, and Connie is a very well known researcher on the source and impact of the supposed false
memory syndrome , and the recovered memory movement. Another speaker was Dr. Stephen Kent, a
sociologist at the University of Alberta. His presentation was "Deviant Scripturalism and Allegations of
Masonic Ritual Abuse". Dr. Kent specializes in primarily research and published writings about ritual
practices within the Masonic men's society, and also within the Mormon church because there are many
links between those two institutions.
There was a community panel on the Saturday afternoon, "The Ethics of Confidentiality - Who Is The
Silence Protecting?" The moderator for the panel was Brenda Small, who is a Cree lawyer from James
Bay who teaches in the Aboriginal Law division at Confederation College. Her specialty is the concept
of Native or Aboriginal Law as opposed to the laws, the judicial process that is part of our dominant
culture. The panel participants were Kerry Bourret, who is a counsellor/ therapist at Family Services
Thunder Bay and who has almost ten years experience in working very successfuly with cult survivors,
trauma survivors, mind control survivors. Also Constable Ken Davies, who is one of the two-person
Criminal Investigation Dept. at Thunder Bay Police. He and another officer specialize in the area of cult
activity, cult abuse as well.
So that January session was very comprehensive, and what I wanted to do there was to cover every
possible aspect - the child aspect ... how agencies could deal with it. The parallels within the First
Nations communities - the parallels in the kinds of organized torture and abuse that had taken place in
residential schools. The impact and the acceleration of False Memory Syndrome Foundation. The
evidence and research documentation about Masonic ritual abuse which is a big problem in this
community as in many others in North America, Britain, Australia. And then to have the community
panel - we are really fortunate to have some extraordinarily committed and very perceptive and bright
professionals working here in the community in Thunder Bay. There are people working here who - I
guess people are surprised when they realize the level of research and service that is actually occurring
in this very isolated region.
The third and final section of Making Up For Lost Time was a workshop by Alexandra Rogers, who is
also a survivor and therapist, based in the United States. Alexandra was raised in a masonic, military cult
in the state of Maine and she was a programmer, trained to be a programmer throughout her childhood. I
think that particular conference workshop setting - to have a survivor who has managed to break the
programming and escape from the cult, and who is now able to work professionally with survivors and
therapists - to break the code for them on how to deal with certain programs that have been indoctrinated
in clients - also for survivors to be able to listen to this extraordinary woman who had been through all
of the same practices, tortures and abuses, and had actually been a torturer herself - for her to stand up
there and talk about the kinds of interventions that had brought her over on the side of being a survivor
and not a practitioner or participant any more - it was one of the most powerful things that happened
throughout the duration of the three part conference series. Alexandra is 33 years old. Her husband was
also there. He is an artist and also a cult survivor who was raised in Toronto, and had formerly been
involved in animation production.
This was a really interesting time in Ontario's history. Unbeknownst to us, there were five other
communities in the province who were also hosting conferences, workshops or gatherings specifically
about ritual abuse. One took place in Kitchener in February, 1995. One in Ottawa in February. One in
Belleville in February. Another in Ottawa in March, and another in Kingston in June. So from our first
gathering in November, our second in January and the third in June -- in that six to eight month period --
there were 8 or 9 gatherings happening around the province. So what we were doing wasn't happening in
isolation - we are not a curiousity of a community. What we were doing was part of a much larger
breaking the silence throughout the province of Ontario.
Wayne Morris:
Do you know if any of the other conferences made the links between ritual abuse and mind control
experimentation?
Lynne Moss-Shaman:
No, nor did they talk about masonic ritual abuse. I sensed at the time that if we were going to present
this information, and if people were going to go to all the trouble of getting to Thunder Bay from other
parts of the province, or from other provinces, that it was essential that we encapsulize the information
and that we put the whole notion of ritual abuse into a much broader historical context. I know some of
the other groups were very fearful of bringing that kind of information forward. We certainly brought
the masonic information forward and we paid for that in lots of ways. The mind control experimentation
wasn't addressed directly at that time. There were private conversations about it that went on at the
gatherings, and actually I think the extent of the mind control experimentation -- coming to know about
it -- was a byproduct of advertising - particularly about the masonic connection. I put a few small
advertisements in the Globe & Mail, notifications about the upcoming conferences - and just the three or
four words describing the masonic connection generated phone calls and letters from survivors across
Canada who described themselves as being masonic survivors, living in terror. They were invariably the
daughters of Masons, or Scottish Rite or Shriners. They began describing, again from all across Canada,
memories of what could only be described as mind control experimentation. Those fragments began to
come forward back then in November 1994.
Wayne Morris:
There were some public statements about masonic involvement in ritual abuse in the media, at the time
of the conference and shortly afterwards in which they had a chance to respond, and they denied all the
allegations that were brought forth. Has there been further responses from the masonic lodge since the
conference, or any further communication?
Lynne Moss-Shaman:
There was a really well organized - I can only call it an attack - by the masons when the January portion
of the conference was coming to the media's attention and I am going to speak about Thunder Bay,
because there was a great deal of media coverage here in the city about it. There was a fax campaign
where then Premier Bob Rae received faxes from masons all over the province denouncing what The
Stone Angels were doing in Thunder Bay. I had messages left on my answering machine at that point,
day after day, from masons and wives of masons in Northwestern Ontario, including a call from the wife
of a mason up in Moose Factory and also the publisher of a newspaper in Dryden who refused to print
the notice about the conference itself because her husband was a mason. So she chose as publisher and
editor of a regional newspaper to not let people know there was such a gathering. There was a public
outcry by the masons that they were not allowed to come and attend our conference, and we were very
explicit and very clear about masons not being allowed to attend. Registration was closed to survivors,
therapists and service providers only -- that's who it was designed for. I received a series of calls from
two particular masons over a period of time here in Thunder Bay. One of them was a retired policeman,
Peter Tooey, who also went on television denouncing what we were doing. At that point I was fairly
naive. I didn't have access at that time to all of the information that was available - primarily USA
publications who had also been asking questions about the Masons. So I was operating in a bit of an
information vacuum at the time.
I had come across some information (in a library encyclopedia of organizations) stating that the Scottish
Rite in the USA funded, out of their charitable donations, research on schizophrenia. I can remember
reading that and thinking how curious, how chilling, that the upper echelon within the Masonic secret
society would choose to use their charitable monies to fund research on schizophrenia which is very
similar in some ways, to the diagnosis of Multiple Personality Disorder or Dissociative Identity Disorder
which is displayed by 99% of the survivors of ritual abuse, and certainly by survivors of mind control
experimentation. And I very naively asked Mr. Tooey if he was aware that monies were being used for
these purposes, and he very proudly told me that " ... well yes ... and here in Thunder Bay all the money
that the Scottish Rite raised went to fund a research project on the study of schizophrenia at the
University of British Columbia." I found that very frightening, and again, very chilling -- that the money
from this community in Northwestern Ontario, raised by this male secret society, would be directly
funnelled to a university on the West Coast of Canada. And then I came across another piece of
information on a bulletin board out at the University shortly after that - there are research grants
available at York University - something called the Rohr Institute which is funded by the Masonic
Foundation of Canada which is headquartered in Hamilton, Ontario. It offers $8,000 and $35,000
research grants -- the $35,000 research grant is directly funded by the Scottish Rite Charitable
Foundation of Canada through the Rohr Institute for the purpose of offering research grants for studies
in the area of "intellectual disability". I don't think this is something that is broadly known either - and I
am wondering what kinds of studies are actually being carried out at York University with these monies.
I think I have mentioned to you before, in terms of intellectual disability, all of the survivors with whom
I have come in contact, are extremely bright, very very creative women and men. Some of them have
two degrees. Some of them have post graduate accreditation as well, and yet the survivors who are able
to function on any professional or academic level, or indeed, are even able to support themselves, are in
the minority. What was done to us has been disabling to use intellectually, in the extreme.
Wayne Morris:
I would like to talk about ACHES-MC which you are the Canada contact for. How did this organization
come about and what are your goals and demands and activities?
Lynne Moss-Shaman:
ACHES-MC is the Advocacy Committee for Human Experimentation Survivors of Mind Control. In
March 1995 the testimony was accepted at the President's Advisory Committee on Human Radiation
Experiments in Washington -- the testimony of approximately fifty survivors of child mind control
experimentation funded by the CIA was presented to that Committee by Valerie Wolf, a therapist in
New Orleans. Valerie incidentally grew up on the military base in North Bay, Ontario and she and her
husband both completed undergraduate degrees at McMaster University in Hamilton. Valerie has been a
therapist for a number of years in New Orleans where her husband is a psychiatrist on faculty at Tulane
University Medical School. Valerie collected the written testimony of survivors of childhood mind
control experimentation to bring to the Committee's attention, and two of her clients, Claudia Mullen
and Chris Denicola came in person to give oral testimony about their experiences as children who had
been subjected to torture, mind control experimentation procedures, and also the organized pedophilia,
again with the CIA context.
I was able to attend a conference in Texas in 1996. Valerie, Claudia and Chris were presenters at the
conference, and when they described the next thing that had to happen for survivors was the formation
of a survivor based advocacy committee who would collect information from as many survivors as
possible and bring it to the attention of this Advisory Committee -- so that another Presidential Advisory
Committee and a formal commission could be formed to accept the testimony of the mind control
survivors in the United States and in Canada. I met other survivors there, and we began sharing
experiences and began informally talking about forming such a group. On the last day of that conference
I by chance started to talking to Blanche Chavoustie who is also a survivor, she is an adult survivor of
mind control experimentation who is originally from upper state New York. She and I just happened to
sit down and started talking to each other, and decided that we were going to do whatever was necessary
to form a survivors advocacy committee. When each of us returned home, Blanche to Long Island and
me to Thunder Bay, we began contacting all the survivors we had been in contact with over the internet
or by mail or telephone. We were able to start ACHES-MC. One of the first actions that we did was
when five survivors attended a conference at the Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, D.C. in
May 1996 and they handed out the first information about ACHES-MC at that time. We started a data
base. We formally started that a year ago in October of 1996, and we have a website and questionnaires
have been sent out to well over a hundred survivors of child mind control experimentation. We have
begun collecting this information, creating this data base and we hope to be able to produce a report.
That data shows the geographical clusters where experimentation has taken place in the US and in
Canada, and it also shows the clusters of alleged perpetrators, torturers - the doctors who carried out
these experiments.
Wayne Morris:
I understand you have also been very active in working with the Native American Indian communities in
the Thunder Bay area. What has your involvement been and how have traditional Native healing
practices played a part in your recovery, and other survivors' recoveries?
Lynne Moss-Shaman:
When I spoke earlier about coming in contact with over sixty adult survivors of ritual abuse in Thunder
Bay, some of those adult survivors are Ojibway people who were raised in Thunder Bay or on the
reserves in Northwestern Ontario. We began to see similarities in what survivors of residential schools
were describing in terms of the practices that were carried out on them. For instance the electric chair
that was constructed at the residential school in Fort Albany, near Moose Factory. There were also
statements about the skeletons of children found in an abandoned barn there at Fort Albany. Some of the
ex-residential school students described being raped in the middle of the night by men in white robes,
and then forced abortions taking place. These are the same ritual cult practices described by survivors of
cult abuse, cult experience.
Wayne Morris:
You are listening to The International Connection on CKLN 88.1 and that was an interview with Lynne
Moss-Sharman, a US mind control experiment survivor and Canada contact for ACHES-MC. We are
going to hear a music piece right now, called "Play Me Backwards" by Joan Baez, and if you listen
closely to the lyrics, this song is about child ritual abuse.
You don't have to play me backwards to get the meaning of my verse
You don't have to try and go to hell to feel the devil's curse
Well I thought my life was a photograph on the family christmas card
Kids all dressed in buttons and bows and lined up in the yard
Were the golden days of childhood so lyrical and warm?
Or did the picture start to fade on the day that I was born?

I've seen them light the candles, I've heard them bang the drum
And I've cried Mama I'm as cold as ice and I got no place to run.

Let the night begin, there's a pop of skin and a sudden rush of scarlet
There's a little boy riding on a goat's head, and a little girl playing the harlot
There's a sacrifice in an empty church of sweel little Baby Rose
And a man in a mask from Mexico is peeling off my clothes.

So I'm paying for protection, smoking out the truth
Chasing recollections, nailing down the proof
You don't have to play me backwards to get the meaning of my verse
You don't have to try and go to hell to feel the devil's curse
I'll stand before your alter and tell everything I know
I've come to claim my childhood at the Chapel of Baby Rose.
Joan Baez, 1992 (CD: Ring Them Bells)
That was Part 1 of an interview with Lynne Moss-Sharman the Canada contact for ACHES-MC and also
of The Stone Angels group in Thunder Bay. Next week we will continue this interview and talk more
about ACHES-MC's current campaign to call for government investigation into mind control
experiments on children. You can learn more about ACHES-MC through their website which is www.
aches-mc.org
I would like to make a couple of announcements regarding these issues we are dealing with on this
show. From October 1 to 3 in Atlanta, Georgia there were will be a conference called "Ritual Trauma,
Child Abuse and Mind Control: a growing threat to national security." This is organized by ECLIPSE.
ECLIPSE is Emancipating Children from Legal Injustice, Pornography and Sexual Exploitation and it is
going to feature quite an impressive list of speakers including Walter Bowart, author of "Operation Mind
Control", Dr. Charles Whitfield, author of "Trauma and Abuse", Ted Gunderson, a former FBI agent
who investigated the McMartin case, Nick Begich, author of "Angels don't play this HAARP", Brice
Taylor, a former presidential mind control slave and author of "Starshine, One woman's valiant escape
from mind control", among many other speakers in Atlanta, Georgia. Also another gathering, more
survivor oriented healing gathering in Elliot Lake, Ontario from October 3-5. This is organized by
SOS&SA, survivors of sexual and spiritual abuse and there will be survivor panels covering topics on
institutionalized child abuse, incest, ritual abuse and cults, sexual abuse by the clergy. There will be an
opportunity to participate in holistic healing and ceremonies by Anishnabe Elders. For more
information, you can contact SOS&SA at PO Box 147 Serpent River First Nation in Cutler, Ontario
POP 1PO. You can get transcripts of previous shows on this mind control radio series here on The
International Connection at the Mind Control Forum website www.mk.net/~mcf and look under the
CKLN Radio Series title.
Wayne Morris:
Good morning and welcome to another edition of The International Connection here on CKLN 88.1.
Today we are broadcasting show #26 in a series on mind control. We are going hear part 2 of an
interview with Lynne Moss-Sharman, the Canadian contact for ACHES-MC, the Advocacy Committee
for Human Experimentation Survivors - Mind Control and of The Stone Angels in Thunder Bay.
Through her work with these organizations, she devotes her energies to act as an advocate for other
survivors of ritual abuse and mind control. The Stone Angels publishes journals with information for
survivors, and ACHES-MC is currently engaged in a campaign to call for an investigation into
government mind control experimentation in the United States and Canada. Lynne alleges that she had
been used in government mind control experiments involving tortures, electricity, sensory deprivation
and sexual abuse. She has remembered names of doctors who are known to have been involved in the
CIA's MKULTRA mind control project, such as Jose Delgado and Ewen Cameron. And now, the second
part of that interview.
Lynne Moss-Shaman:
More people contacted The Stone Angels as more Native agencies and Native service providers started
to get in touch with us. A lot of this happened on an individual basis as well. We began to see that there
were certain reserves, certain areas where there were intergenerational satanic cults operating - and these
are comprised of Ojibway or Ojibway-Cree people. I can only assume that the creation and the
maintenance of these cults over the decades, or over generations. was a direct result of the missionary
activities, the religion that was imported by the British and the French through the fur trade centuries
ago, and certainly is a direct product of the residential school experience. There is known cult activity on
Manitoulin Island and some survivors described wealthy, white people who were flown in from New
York and California to take part in highly organized, highly sophisticated cult activity right on the
Island. This is something that has been addressed within the Native community and across Canada there
is research being carried out by Native people themselves. They know where the activity is taking place,
and they are dealing with it in their way.
A group has formed in the Sault Ste. Marie/Cutler/Thessalon area, Survivors of Spiritual and Sexual
Abuse. They are affiliated with Elders, and have recently received funding to sponsor intensive healing
gatherings directed and run by Elders. They are quite prepared to provide any help or assistance at all to
ritual abuse survivors, or survivors of mind control experimentation, Native or non-Native. There is a
high level of awareness within the Native community itself about the extent of ritual, cult abuse
practices and certainly people who work in the Native Child and Family agencies have come to find a lot
of evidence of this kind of practice, a lot of children who have been damaged by it.
Wayne Morris:
What kinds of healing practices have been going on in the Native community? Has that been helpful in
the recovery of Native survivors?
Lynne Moss-Shaman:
I have been at healing gatherings, at sweat lodges, where Elders have gathered together and they usually
know that there has to be a group of them who are going to work with ritual abuse survivors. They have
had the most profound healing impact on survivors that I have seen. I often think that, personally, I
wouldn't be alive if it hadn't been for the assistance of some Native Elders here in the Thunder Bay area.
I am very grateful to them for what they have been able to do. They don't shy away from it, or deny it, or
run away from it which is not something I can say about the non-Native healing community itself. There
is a great deal of fear in the non-Native community. The fear isn't there in the majority of Elders. They
see the direct equation to what has happened to so many of their people in the residential schools and
within the prison system as well, and again because so many of the residential schools were also found
in areas that were near military bases, either U.S. or Canada military bases (NORAD and the DEW Line
certainly had an impact). We are starting to see a lot more evidence of mind control experimentation. I
am assuming it is going to be the same CIA funded practices that were carried out on non-Native
children, again in that non-military context.
Wayne Morris:
Lynne, I would like to talk to you about your own experiences with government mind control
experimentation. How do you remember that you first got introduced to this?
Lynne Moss-Shaman:
My father had been in the Canadian military, the Cape Breton Highlanders, from 1939-45. My mother
was a war bride from Glasgow. They moved from Halifax to Toronto following my birth in 1947, and
like many other men after the war, my father had the usual difficulty in finding work. My memories first
began with memories of sexual abuse by my father, my uncle and a group of his army buddies who were
also involved in the sexual exploitation of children. The memories always began with these men who
were somehow associated with the military, and I am not sure how it escalated with my father. I am
absolutely uncertain about how he came to play a role in this, and he will never talk to me. I do know he
worked for General Electric in Toronto and that he belonged to something called The Pyramid Club. I
met an adopted survivor, who is half Native, and she had been used in pedophilia in southern Ontario by
her adoptive father who belonged to a group who went by this name as well.
Wayne Morris:
Do you know if your father was involved with any potential cults or ....
Lynne Moss-Shaman:
I have very distinct memories of cult rituals starting at a very early age. One of them was when living on
Maria Street in Toronto. I have memories of a ritual ('forgiven by the blood') taking place near the
slaughterhouse; churches outside of Hamilton and Toronto - different locations there; also being flown
to different places as well, including an underground cult site called Stone Mountain, that was affiliated
with the military. I remember being taken to Uplands Air Base in Ottawa as a child.
Wayne Morris:
Do you have any idea of how old you would have been when this took place?
Lynne Moss-Shaman:
I have really distinct memories from age three onwards, and I have begun to piece together the
memories about the experiments themselves bit by bit over the years.
Wayne Morris:
You have done a series of drawings that express your memories of government mind control
experimentation which you have included in one of The Stone Angels journals and which I found to be
very disturbing. Can you tell us how these drawings came about, and what they mean to you?
Lynne Moss-Shaman:
The drawings were very puzzling to me for a long time. I found myself doing drawings of children who
seemed to be wearing helmets, and there was always an electrical outlet nearby. There was always some
kind of indication of electricity being used. Over time, I began to realize what I was trying to say with
these drawings, because I was unable to say any of these things in words. It has only been in the past six
or eight months that I am somewhat able to articulate what is contained in the drawings. There is one
drawing that describes a series of memories I had about having my limbs dislocated at the shoulders and
at the hips, and then being wrapped up with rolls of bandage to create a portable sensory deprivation
unit, if you like. What was said about what was being done to me there was "First we break you, then we
make you ..." I can remember looking at the drawing when I finally did it, and realizing that this was a
very, very simple technique for anyone in the military ... not even necessarily in the military ... if
someone wanted to begin the process of torture on an individual, they would be able to carry rolls of
bandage as part of a first aid kit, or it could be as simple as carrying rolls of bandage in a brown paper
bag ... and no one would know that you were about to begin breaking a person.
Wayne Morris:
And this is really exactly what the intention was of Dr. Cameron's projects at McGill were designed to
do. He publicly stated that was what he wanted to do ... remove a person's personality. Totally break
them down, rebuild them, put in a new personality according to their design.
Lynne Moss-Shaman:
Actually, not a new person per se, but a series of interlocked and interconnected personalities or
components that could only be brought forward by key words or key phrases. Telephone programming -
you were made to respond and made to be cued internally by the application of electricity and by
different torture procedures, again as a child so that the telephone could be used very effectively. Again,
it could be as simple as someone 1000 miles away wanting to make contact with that part of you, and all
they have to do once the training had been completed, was to pick up the phone, give you a cue word,
and then that component within yourself would be activated to follow through on any instructions or
suppression of material they might want to implement at that time.
I have very distinct memories about different sensory deprivation techniques as well. There was a series
of constructed rooms, some of which became smaller while you were in them. Other containers such as
barrel shaped containers in which you were placed - your arms, legs, everything would be bound and
you would be wrapped up that way and put inside a container. These are just the systematic techniques
to begin isolating you. Then things accelerated to the use of Ewen Cameron's procedures. The song
Home Home on the Range seems to be something that was used in my programming, and there was
another experiment, again with the use of a helmet and tubes were placed over my arms so that I was
unable to move my arms or my hands to defend myself, or have any tactile sense at all.
And there are also drawings of ... I remember being put in ... I had no idea what I was describing at the
time, but I certainly knew what the effect and the impact was. There were chambers, and all I can
remember is what I would call a huge coil at the end of the chamber and ... they ... I was put in there ...
and then something happened, and it had to do with that coil, and I can remember wanting to rip the top
of my skull off when I started to remember about being put in those chambers ... there were two of them,
one was larger than the other ... I wanted to kill myself and rip the top of my skull off. I can't even put
into words what the effect of those coils were.
I was part of some of the projects that were funded by the University of Rochester in the last part of the
forties and early fifties. The three key research points in the funding triangle were Los Alamos,
University of Rochester and Stanford University in California. Dr. Cameron certainly had an affiliation
with those research groups which were conducted in secrecy in upper State New York. Another
Canadian is Dr. George Estabrooks. There is a very worth-noting silence about Dr. Estabrooks. He was
located at Colgate College in Hamilton, New York and he had a teaching affiliation with Oswego State
Teacher's College. It is worth noting here that Oswego, N.Y., on Lake Ontario, was a major receiving
site for Holocaust survivors and refugees. Those people deemed not well, psychologically or physically,
were held at Fort Drum, about 35 miles from Oswego. George Estabrooks was born in Newfoundland,
and Canadians can know that he was instrumental in creating the U.S. versions of the Manchurian
Candidates. He had been in direct contact since 1937 with J. Edgar Hoover, and was affiliated with Jose
Delgado, Martin Orne, Ewen Cameron and others -- with the practitioners of mind control and
brainwashing experiments. There is a long-neglected history here that needs to be brought forward.
Wayne Morris:
Right, and he has published many writings of his own, detailing or giving some details of his work in
trying to create Manchurian Candidates. Just for the benefit of listeners who may not be familiar with
that term, it is using a person under the influence of mind control to commit assassination and many
other military and espionage acts as we will get into later. Also to familiarize listeners with the work of
Jose Delgado ... he was involved also in the same kind of work using radio control brain implants ...
Lynne Moss-Shaman:
... I don't even want to use the word "doctor" ... I will say torturer, Delgado, was one of the men who
performed experimental procedures on me as well as Dr. Ewen Cameron. He had experimental sites
constructed within a building -- one was called The Funhouse, the other was The Playhouse. I had been
wired up to perform like a robot, like a puppet, and electricity was used to control my movements and
actions. I was taken to a place that I can only recall as the "Land Vehicle Division" and the work that
Jose Delgado was doing was somehow related to this military installation. Because I would have been
taken there in a drugged state as a child, I am not sure of the location of that particular place, but I know
it is Jose Delgado who has come up over and over again.
Wayne Morris:
Do you know what kinds of things the government has used you in, using mind control? What kind of
operations were you involved in?
Lynne Moss-Shaman:
In many cases it literally is to carry information and to be used for blackmail purposes and to be used in
pedophilia among high-ranking people who either have to be brought into the fold or reminded of their
place in the hierarchy. There are certainly the assassin programs, that is a very hard one to come to grips
with inside yourself when you start to remember exactly what your hands have been taught to do. For
example, I know how to scalp someone three different ways. Not a Betty Crocker Little Homemakers
Oven trick is it?
There are many instances ... and Jonestown always comes up ... and the experimentation at Walla Walla
Prison ... there seem to have been some assassin programs produced at Oakridge Penetentiary here in
Ontario in the late 1960's and early 1970's under a programming and LSD experiment conducted by Dr.
Elliott Barker in that institution. He is still practicing in the Midland area today.
I was used to blackmail a British scientist. It started in a faculty building dining room setting and then I
found myself, as a child, in bed with this older man who was crying, and there was a camera trained on
the bed, and he been drugged, I had been drugged as well ... and here I was a child, with of course no
clothes on ... he had no clothes on ... and he was crying and crying about what was he going to tell his
wife, what was he going to tell his wife ... (that was actually the least of his worries really) ... there were
three people standing at the end of the bed, men dressed in women's clothes, and it had to do with one of
the projects they were working on at that time, and this particular British researcher - it was essential
that he become complicit in what they were going to carry out.
Wayne Morris:
Have you heard other accounts of children being used operationally for these sexual blackmail episodes?
Lynne Moss-Shaman:
There are hundreds of stories like that. I think what I find - not just the sadism of these military
researchers, these scientists - not just the sadism and their absolute total disregard for anything we would
put under the definition of "human or humanity" - there seems to be a predilection among almost all of
them for pedophilia with either male or female children, and that seems to be a common bond with
them. There was also a lot of "gender blending", cross dressing at times in rituals or situations like the
one above.
Wayne Morris:
What are some of the similiarities between the survivors accounts that you have come across with
ACHES-MC and The Stone Angels?
Lynne Moss-Shaman:
Some of the things that children who have been involved in ritual abuse describe is the use of cages,
electricity, the use of drugs ... these are also things that come up in the production of pornography, in
any investigation of the production of pornography itself. In the mind control experiments, again, the
electricity is essential ... it has been refined over time. The use of drugging to obtain compliance or to
literally experiment with children to see what the effect of certain drugs will be. The use of torture. The
use of sensory deprivation. Psychic driving. The use of the children who were used in the mind control
experimentation to carry secrets, to be used for pedophilia to blackmail certain individuals in the
research and military community so that their compliance is gained. Proximity to military bases or
nuclear reactors ... in the U.S. and in Canada. When I look at a map of Ontario for example, I can
pinpoint clusters of survivors who grew up in communities where there were military bases or nuclear
power plants ...
Wayne Morris:
You were aware of other people, other survivors, being around other people who were being
experimented upon. Were these for the most part children, or a mixture of men and women.
Lynne Moss-Shaman:
There were babies, female and male children, female and male adults. The survivors that I am personally
am most in contact with because they are the ones I share the most with are the child survivors of
experimentation, and there are certainly many survivors who were introduced to these experimental
technologies and this torture as adults at different colleges or universities, or in prisons, or the military
itself. I guess I am thinking it is easier to believe that a prisoner or an adult was subjected to mind
control experimentation because we have seen a published and a broadcast history of what was done to
adults. It is really essential that the child survivors' stories are brought forward, and that as a society we
understand the depth and the length that the research institutions in Canada and the USA ... the length
and the depth they will sink, and go to, to devise more and more refined techniques so they can
brainwash the populace.
Wayne Morris:
Through your memories of the time when you had undergone these experiments, what is your sense of
how many other people were involved in being experimented on at that time?
Lynne Moss-Shaman:
I was taken to laboratory settings where people had been held for a long time. I saw evidence of children
having been born in these laboratory settings ...
Wayne Morris:
And they were being used as well?
Lynne Moss-Shaman:
Yes, and the genetic experimentation that was going on ... I remember being in one place in the fifties
and there were what I call "Torso Babies" ... they had little babies, they had beards, and they didn't have
any arms and legs ... and when I did the drawings, all I could call them was the "Torso Babies". A
friend, who is a nurse, looked at them and said "omigod, that must have been something like thalidomide
being used that way" in these hidden laboratories. I know that some of the survivors who have come
forward talked about having been given different drug regimes when they were eight or nine years old to
bring puberty on ... so that they were able to become reproductive much earlier than they normally
would have. They have been very damaged by what was done to them at age eight or nine in terms of
their genetic makeup and some are unable or unwilling to have children themselves.
Wayne Morris:
What is the role of the various kinds of druggings they had used within the experimentation?
Lynne Moss-Shaman:
That is a huge question. To make someone unconscious and therefore malleable is one. I think they were
also experimenting to see which of the drugs would make someone more susceptible to brainwashing.
Probably efficiency is a word I could use. Time management, cost efficient. Which drug is going to
make it easier and quicker to begin the brainwashing process, to begin the patterning that needs to take
place. And genetic alteration was a big factor ... along with radiation experiments. I believe cross
breeding was taking place, animal and human matings. And if you look at the list of research projects
documented at University of Rochester during that time period ... when you see an experiment described
as being done with rats, or cats, or monkeys ... try inserting the word infant, child, adult human in some
cases ... the CIA scientists would never have listed human beings as research subjects for the procedures
they were carrying out on primates etc.
There is some parallel research going on in Canada in the Native community itself as well ... when I
look at the electric chair that was constructed at the Fort Albany residential school up by Moosonee,
where the children were put in that electric chair and made to jump and squirm with electricity for the
"entertainment of the visiting dignarities" ... that was back in the 1950's. I am really wondering what role
the military mind control experimentation has played in what has happened to the Native community
across Canada. I have memories of being in one place where, there was an Inuit woman who had a very
small infant with her and her head had been shaved. I am wondering what happened to some of the
patients who were sent down to Southern Ontario or across the border into the States for tuberculosis
treatment in the fifties and sixties ...
Wayne Morris:
How has the process of healing been for you?
Lynne Moss-Shaman:
It's been a really long one, and I guess ... at some point there is a fragmentation that occurs is irreversible
and absolutely devastating. As you enter into each of the levels of programming, your body remembers
everything that was ever done to you. So physicall, you are almost in whiplash sometimes when your
body begins to remember the insertion of certain things whether it was the doctor's penis, or whether it
was a fine metal wire ... you begin to remember what it felt like when they began to turn the coil on
when you were in the chamber. You begin to remember what you felt like when they put you in the chair
and strapped down your hands and your ankles and put the electrodes on you. You begin to remember
what it is like to be made to walk and function like a robot in a room where there were scientists looking
down over the top of the small constructed room that they called The Playhouse, and they told you to go
into The Playhouse and as a child you thought it was going to be a play-house ... and instead it was just
an experimental laboratory ... sort of like a doll's house with no roof on the house ... and they watched
you and used their remote control devices and their electricity to make you do what they wanted.
Wayne Morris:
How did you begin remembering the memories of experimentation and torture? What was going on in
your life at the time?
Lynne Moss-Shaman:
I think things really began to break through at a time of personal crisis in my life. I know that many
survivors have had the process of memory recovery begin ... sometimes a car accident, or a physical
trauma like a rape, or another kind of traumatic event started their process. Mine was being in an
extremely abusive personal relationship with someone and it ended up being the last of a series of
degrading, for myself, interpersonal relationships. And I really just bottomed out and could not function,
and some friends took me to get some help.
Wayne Morris:
And was that when you were first introduced to the therapist you have been working with.
Lynne Moss-Shaman:
Yes. And neither she nor I were cognizant at the time of what was to come in the therapeutic process
over the ensuing years. Things started off fairly simply -- generically in a sense. I began dealing with
different incidents with my father and uncle, some of my father's military friends. Over time I began
having fragments of other more puzzling memories of being in hospital settings, memories of being in
cages, electricity. I guess it is important to emphasize that my process, which is similar to many other
survivors, was a very fragmentary one. I would get initially a glimpse of a setting, a glimpse of
someone's face, but as I got the visual memory, or the fragment of the memory, I would have intense
body pain and I would be unable to speak. I couldn't tell my therapist what I was remembering, or what
was happening. So there was a very very long and intense series of acting things out for her ... I was
absolutely non-verbal, incapable of telling her what I was remembering. There was a lot of abreacting,
and sometimes writing or drawing, sometimes hiding myself under her coffee table, wrapping myself up
in her throw rug on the floor of her office, sometimes pinning myself against the wall, or hiding in the
corner. Using the electrical outlet on the wall, pretending to put my fingers into it, to somehow transmit
to her that there were electrical currents coming into my body.
Wayne Morris:
And when you say abreacting, that means to be re-living that experience once again ...
Lynne Moss-Shaman:
Yes. In that process, your body literally takes on the position that you found yourself in, or you will
intensely feel the pain in certain parts of your body, as if it were taking place right at that minute again.
Wayne Morris:
This seems to be the nature of remembering traumatic experience ... in that it does come back more like
a body memory and a lot of survivors have said that they have felt the actual pain or the physical effects
of what had been done to them ... the actual marks on the body will reappear during remembering.
Lynne Moss-Shaman:
I didn't have any of that happening (marks), but I did find myself in physical positions that I would be
absolutely incapable of putting myself into in my everday existence. It's really hard to describe. The
contortions that my body went into, and the spasms -- I literally would have spasms as my body
remembered the electricity. I can remember another time sitting there and pounding and pounding my
legs, as if I was going to break the bones in my legs, with strength I would never experience, again, in
my day-to-day existence. So the therapeutic process is a long one for those very reasons. It is extremely
wearing physically to be able to allow yourself in the safety of your therapist's office to try and
somehow convey to her what was done to you.
Wayne Morris:
How did your therapist go about conducting the sessions with you?
Lynne Moss-Shaman:
She was very, very good right from the start. I honestly didn't know what was going on. I was finding
myself collapsing out in the street, finding myself phoning hospitals because I was reliving memories of
being in hospitals, and I had programming that was telling me to go back to the hospital. At certain
points I used to beg her to send me to a hypnotist in Toronto or in Ottawa, or wherever a competent
hypnotist would be. She really gently sort of didn't dissuade me from it, because all the decisions that
were made were my own, and continue to be my own, but she was also very firm and said that she didn't
think hypnosis would be a good idea based on the intensity of the physical reactions that I was having as
I brought the memories forward -- that hypnosis might be literally more than my body could handle. If I
was going to be overwhelmed and flooded by hypnosis with a huge quantity of memories -- it would
literally be very hard on my body. What she recommended was that we just go really slowly so that I
was able to deal with things just a bit at a time, one step at a time, so that my body, my spirit, my
psyche, my "self" was able to process and begin to understand how the different memories were actually
linked together.
She has also been very kind and very careful to never give me any information in writing, or any spoken
information. The relationship I have had with her has been one of her acting as my witness ... and as a
person in whom I have been able to ... for the first time in my life ... establish a relationship of trust. It
has never been my experience where she was giving me articles or books. She has never once said "this
sounds like" or "this may be" -- it has been, and it still is, the relationship outlined by Judith Lewis
Herman, the trauma specialist at Harvard University -- where the most important thing that a survivor of
any childhood trauma needs is someone to be a confidential and respectful witness to the story that
needs to be told by that person.
Wayne Morris:
So she never used hypnosis or drugs on you ...
Lynne Moss-Shaman:
Nothing. Nothing. And because she was able to go slowly, and carefully, and respectfully with me, I was
able to avoid any psychiatric intervention. There were many, many times when I did want to, literally,
erase myself from life and go into a psychaitric ward, go into a psychiatric hospital. I did want drugs to
make what I was remembering and feeling easier to bear. But I never did do that. There were lots of
times when I wanted to drink or do drugs as well as a means of escaping the pain of remembering what
had happened, and I never did do that either. I give a lot of credit to her competency and her skills as a
therapist that I was able to continue in therapy, and I am still in therapy today, without having to escape
into any articial intervention, or any destructive intervention. Because I could have ended up being one
of those recipients of electroshock, I could have ended up being one of those persons who were
chemically lobotomized. There has certainly been an escalation in both of those things in the past few
years in Ontario.
Wayne Morris:
Absolutely. Now when you started remembering the names of the doctors and the places of the
experimentation, were you familiar with the history of CIA mind control experiments through what had
been published.
Lynne Moss-Shaman:
No. I had absolutely no knowledge of any of these experiments or any of the information involved. And
I think it's really important to say something about how I remembered the names, or how I remembered
places. It's not like a cartoon flash coming up in your mind, "Oh, that's Dr. so-and-so" or "Oh, that's the
place I was taken to..." I have binders and binders and binders of my journals. When I started
remembering things, and I am going back to remembering my father, my uncle, my father's military
friends ... when I started remembering the incest when I lived in Toronto on Maria Street as a small child
and then in Hamilton, up on the mountain ... I wrote and I wrote and I wrote ... night after night. I had
something I called my "secret code writing" as well that came at a certain time. After a certain point, I
found myself writing things that were not familiar to me at all, and there were names in there ... a Dr.
Hamilton, a Dr. Green, a Dr. Hendricks as well, I don't know who that is ... I found myself writing down
names and words and phrases that had absolutely no meaning to me at all. And it was quite a few years
before some of the things I had written began to have some meaning. The fragmentary fashion in which
I wrote these things down too ... they were not really intelligible. My handwriting would change as
different parts of myself came forward to write things down and that's how my drawings came as well. I
ended up doing a series of drawings for ten months ... although I had never been able to draw more than
a stick figure in my life ... and once the drawings "came through" for that ten month period I was unable
to draw again after that series of drawings came out.
I don't know how to put into words ... I am not sure how to put into words ... about how fragmented the
therapeutic or the memory process is. It's as fragmented as the fragmentation that was deliberately
induced by these scientists, by these doctors, by these CIA funded "workers" when they put electricity
on me, or when they put the electrodes on, or when they put the helmet on me, or when they put me in
the different sensory deprivation containers. They were ensuring that what was being done to me at that
time was being fragmented into a certain neuropathway, and so as the memories came, they came in a
fragmented fashion as well. This isn't like a lightbulb going off in your head ... "Oh yes, now I
remember!" You go through years of getting little bits of information about the same event and finally,
you do get to the point where you can "re-enter" the hospital setting. You can "re-enter" the military
setting. You can "re-enter" the pedophile setting, after having spent years and years of an indescribable
amount of physical and emotional pain as the fragments leaked through.
Wayne Morris:
And did you visit these places in an attempt to verify your memories in terms of validating the existence
of the places themselves and the people that ...
Lynne Moss-Shaman:
No. And I live in Thunder Bay and I have been on welfare on and off for 17 years. I am on disability
now. I do my laundry in a bucket. I go to food banks sometimes. I don't travel anywhere. My biggest
wish would be that I could go to upper state New York, that I could go to Oswego, Rochester, Hamilton,
N.Y. to Colgate College. I want to go to Annapolis, Maryland. I want to go with someone that I trust and
I want to take a videocamera and I want to go back to these places, because I know that I have a voice,
or voices, inside me that are going to be able to describe very accurately what was done, when I visit the
places. I have been able now, in the past year, to find some photographs of sites. I was given the
yearbook from the Oswego State Teachers College from the 1950's, and I was able to identify, without
the names, the two psychologists in the Psychology Department there, who were involved. There is one
location in one of the buildings ... I know that was one of the places where I was taken.
I have gathered lots of information in the past year, and I can certainly verify some things, but I would
give anything to be able to go back physically to these places and take this process to the next level.
Wayne Morris:
When did you start finding out that what happened to you may have been part of the CIA and US
government's military experimental programs? How did that realization take place?
Lynne Moss-Shaman:
It was actually on New Year's Day 1996. A friend had given me a computer the summer before, and
another friend gave me a modem so I could get on internet, and another friend gave me a year's hookup
on internet so that I could begin contacting other people and finding information. On 11pm at night, on
New Year's Day, I, by accident found a speech that Walter Bowart had given in 1994 or 1995 in Texas.
His speech mentioned something about funding at University of Rochester, Navy funding, something
called Project Chatter in 1952. I literally went into shock at the computer. My daughter and her
boyfriend were both there, and apparently I went into spasms and my daughter's boyfriend was going to
call an ambulance. My reaction to reading those words apparently really, really strong. What had
happened was, I had a drawing. It was a child with a helmet on, and I had written "Chatter" underneath
it. There were actually a series of drawings about these helmets, and the sound programming that we
were made to endure. I felt very alone with all this. I thought I was crazy, to be honest, for a long time.
And here I am sitting there reading, "Project Chatter, Navy funding, 1952". Following that someone
gave me some information that Valerie Wolf and Claudia Mullen and Chris Denicola had testified in
Washington, and when I read that, that was a huge turning point, especially Claudia Mullen's, because I
had remembered Ewen Cameron. The cages, the electricity. Chris talked about the same table I had
already remembered, and gone through that. There were so many similarities, particularly in Claudia's
testimony. That was a huge turning point. I did phone Valerie Wolf, and I got her address, and when I
realized that she was Canadian and had gone to McMaster University in Hamilton where I grew up, that
was another sort of curious synchronicity.
I did send my drawings to Valerie in New Orleans, and I asked her if she would just take a look at them,
and see if anything I had drawn was similar to anything she had been told by her clients. She phoned
back to say that Claudia Mullen had looked at my drawings, and Claudia was able to identify the
doctors' portraits that I had drawn. I can't put names to these "portraits". Claudia and Valerie won't tell
me the names because they don't want to contaminate my memory process.
I actually didn't even show them to my therapist for about ten months after I had finished most of them. I
felt I had no conscious connection to these drawings at all, and I finally just went into her office one day
and really dismissively just sort of tossed this stack of drawings to her ... and said, "you might find some
of these interesting." It was the only time I had ever seen, a sort of "emotional" reaction on her face
(laughs) -- I think she was really really shocked at what she saw -- but again, she was really respectful.
That part of me was ready to sort of hand over the drawings to her. There was a lot of pain, and a lot of
work ahead of me in terms of having to go through more abreactive processing about these drawings that
I consciously "had nothing to do with". It's a very complicated process, this memory retrieval.
I don't think I will ever live to see the kind of verification or validation of everything that is in my
journals, or everything that is in my drawings. And I would imagine that most of the files that my
drawings are referring to around 1952 to 1955-56 -- I would imagine most of those CIA files are among
those that were destroyed because those drawings are very damning, very damning indeed.
Wayne Morris:
They are extremely moving to look at, and depict such horrific experimentation. Can you tell us what
some of the recent activities ACHES-MC have been?
Lynne Moss-Shaman:
A group of survivors, and advocates, and professionals were able to meet at the Believe the Children
Conference in Chicago in April of 1997. At that time, we began documenting statements from survivors
and the professionals involved on videotape and we have now sent a videoletter to President Clinton
with a copy to Prime Minister Chretien, asking for a Presidential Hearing and the declassification of
government records relating to mind control experiments conducted on unwitting children and adults
funded by the United States government through the CIA from the 1940's onward.
That videodocument is now in their hands, and we haven't heard anything back at this point in time.
Basically we are now lobbying and pressuring for a formal hearing to begin on the mind control
experimentation.
Wayne Morris:
What sort of form of hearings do you envision or you would like to see? Or what are the possibilities of
different types of hearings?
Lynne Moss-Shaman:
I am not entirely familiar with how the process for the Human Radiation Experiments was conducted in
the United States. I understand there were travelling hearings though that would be similar to other
commissions that have been conducted in Canada and the United States. I am assuming that the
travelling hearing process would be the most successful, and the most productive. If a Committee can be
constructed, and if they can go to different centres in the United States, and again, in Canada, that it
would then become possible for survivors and for their therapists and other persons involved, to be able
to attend the hearings and present their information.
And I would certainly assume that there would be some travel monies made available to survivors so
that they would be able to attend and present. But I am certainly hoping that there is going to be a North
American hearing ultimately ... and that the Canadian survivors who have been affected by the CIA
experiments are going to have an opportunity to present their histories as fully as possible.
Wayne Morris:
I want to thank you very much, Lynne, for speaking here with us at CKLN. I know it takes incredible
courage in speaking out, more than any of our listeners can imagine.
Lynne Moss-Shaman:
It's a struggle. I want to thank you too on behalf of survivors and people working in the field, for what
you have taken on with this radio series. No one else has done it, and I want to thank you.
We have been listening to an interview with Lynne Moss-Sharman, the Canadian contact for ACHES-
MC, the Advocacy Committee for Human Experimentation Survivors of Mind Control. To support the
ACHES-MC current campaign for a government investigation into mind control experimentation on
children and adults, you can send your letters of support to Prime Minister Chretien and President
Clinton. I would quickly like to make an announcement about an upcoming conference regarding these
issues. From October 1 to 3, 1997 in Atlanta, Georgia there will be a conference about ritual trauma,
child abuse and mind control. Call ECLIPSE for more information.


Blanche Chavoustie Interview
Read her personal account on our site Blanche Chavoustie.
[Corrected by Blanche Chavoustie 6-98]
CKLN 88.1 FM - Ryerson Polytechnical University, Toronto Ontario

Good morning, and welcome to another International Connection. This is show number 30 in a series on
mind control, and today we are going to hear an interview with Blanche Chavoustie, a survivor of
various U.S. government mind control experiments. Blanche is the American coordinator for ACHES-
MC, the Advocacy Committee for Human Experimentation Survivors of mind control, who are currently
engaged in a campaign to open a government investigation into the mind control experiments. In this
interview, Blanche is alleging that she was experimented on at various sites, such as Cornell Medical
Centre in New York, Hollywood Hospital in Vancouver, B.C., Syracuse University and the
Parapsychology Lab at Princeton, all of which have been documented to be sites involved in the CIA
MKULTRA mind control projects. Her accounts include her being experimented on with brain implants,
synthetic telepathy, drugs, and hypnosis and she has been harassed repeatedly throughout her life. Here
now is her interview:
Wayne Morris:
I would like to start off by asking you if you could tell us how you first came to suspect that mind
control was being used on you?
Blanche Chavoustie:
It was a long, hard struggle to discover that actually. In 1989 I started experiencing harassment, almost
daily, and stalking. It happened at least a few times a week, sometimes every day. Sometimes it would
happen when my friends were with me, but usually it happened when I was by myself. Also, very weird
phone messages would be left. I just didn't know what to make of it ... I wasn't clear where it was
coming from. The only thing I knew was that whoever was doing it had to have a lot of money because
they had resources to spend to have people following me.
In May of 1990, after very severe harassment, I was kidnapped and taken to Cornell Medical Centre in
Westchester. There I was put into isolation and they tried to force me to take drugs which are written of
as "chemical straitjackets", "drugs of punishment and control". There was really no reason for this. I was
trying to explain to them that yes, I am upset, but I am being harassed and I have witnesses to it. I invite
you to speak with them.
Wayne Morris:
How did they kidnap you?
Blanche Chavoustie:
A person who worked at the hospital whom I had never met before tricked me into his car, and once I
was at the hospital, there was like no way I could get away. I realized what was going on, I tried to leave
the building, and six people surrounded me, put me on the floor, and I was trapped.
Wayne Morris:
What was their purported reason for keeping you at the hospital?
Blanche Chavoustie:
It changed during the time I was there. They insisted that I was hearing voices, even though I said that I
wasn't. I have the records now which show when the person did intake with me and asked, "do you hear
voices?" I said "No, I don't hear voices." Some people insisted that I was suicidal, even though I said no,
and every single entry makes reference to that in the the 120 pages of medical records. They must have
asked me 30 times while I was there, and every single entry says that my response was "No". But one of
the doctors wrote several times that "she has hidden suicidal ideation", so even though I said no it wasn't
true, they insisted that it was.
I was taken there at night around 9pm, admitted at 10:15, and at 11:30 two doctors wrote certificates
certifying me as "mentally ill". I was already incarcerated, in isolation, and they refused to give me a
psychiatric workup. I asked them for a workup that would include projective testing because I knew if
they would do that, they would see that what I was saying was true, that I was actually being harassed,
that I was not delusional and they wouldn't give this testing to me.
Wayne Morris:
You had told them about the harassment ...
Blanche Chavoustie:
I told them about the harassment, I told them I had seen a therapist on the outside who knew about it,
who thought it was a cult that was harassing me, they would not speak to her, they would not speak to
witnesses, they did everything to suppress information that would have shown what the truth was. The
only test they wanted to give me was a gynecological exam and I didn't let them. I don't know why they
wanted to give it to me. It was ordered the first thing on my arrival there.
Wayne Morris:
So rather than seriously take your allegations into account they have simply labelled you as mentally
ill ... did they actually administer drugs to you?
Blanche Chavoustie:
They were ordered for me, and I refused to take them. The first morning I was there at 7.30 or 8.00 am,
whenever they give out meds, they wanted me to take them. I refused. I told them I don't need them,
there is nothing wrong with me except that I am being harassed. They persisted every day in asking me
to take them. I wrote out a letter to the Director of the Hospital asking for a hearing to determine
whether my incarceration was valid. When the Unit Chief found out I had done this, he came to me and
said he understood I had requested a hearing, that if there was any hearing, it would be the hospital's
hearing to put me on medication and that he was going to ask for 60 days with forced medication. He
suggested that I not go to court, that it wouldn't be therapeutic, that I just take the medication and forget
about it. I couldn't do that. I couldn't just take the medication because I felt that I would never be okay if
I did that. I would never get free, I would never be able to think. Even though it was a threat, if you don't
win in court, we are going to drag you back here and inject you ... I still insisted that I wanted to have a
hearing and I did go and the Judge did rule that they could not force medication on me. The papers they
sent to the court and the doctor who attended said I was "suicidal" ... the judge said that I should be
committed for 30 more days and he allowed me to move to another hospital. At the next hospital they
evaluated me, and I was released almost immediately. I think I went there on a Friday, and on Monday
the attorney for that hospital came to me and said I was free to leave.
Wayne Morris:
How long were you at Cornell?
Blanche Chavoustie:
I was at Cornell for 21 days, maybe 22.
Wayne Morris:
Was it at that time you had begun to suspect you were being used for ...
Blanche Chavoustie:
At that time I could no longer just let it ride and try to think, well what's going on? It just totally
consumed me. From the moment I was knocked on the floor in that lobby, my mind began spinning
about what is going on here? It was like a computer, just tracking down every strange thing that had ever
happened in my life, and trying to figure what started this? I immediately connected being kidnapped to
all the harassment I had gone through, but I still didn't know what was behind it, and even when I got
out of the hospital, and when I got out of the second hospital, I still didn't know who was behind it. I just
knew that it had to be somebody or some organization that had a lot of money because I was being
followed by different vehicles - limousines, vans, people followed me on the bus - there was an
enormous amount of money going into this.
Shortly after getting out of the hospital, I went to see a friend of mine, a woman named Nancy, who is a
therapist and has a lot of experience. She has been a pscychologist for a long time, she's a psychoanalyst
and I think I have known her about twenty years now. She knew me in many different roles. I worked
for a while in the mental health centre that she runs, and I knew her socially, and I worked side by side
with her when we were both very young therapists. I went to see her, and asked what do you suppose is
going on here? And she helped me figure it out. Probably this was somehow connected to an experiment
I participated in in Vancouver, B.C., in Canada in 1973 (it might have been 1974). At Hollywood
Hospital where I went to participate in an LSD experiment.
Wayne Morris:
How did you get involved in that?
Blanche Chavoustie:
That came from a psychiatrist in New York - I was going for therapy in N.Y.C. with a psychologist, and
when I quit therapy with him he asked me to go and speak to his supervisor. When I spoke with his
supervisor, I got referred to this experiment in Vancouver. I was not opposed to it, but I didn't have any
idea of the ramifications of it. My friend Nancy and I figured out that was probably connected to the
hospitalization and all the things that had been happening preceding the hosopitalization.
Wayne Morris:
At the time were you aware of Hollywood Hospital's involvement in LSD and mind control ...
Blanche Chavoustie:
I still wasn't aware of Hollywood Hospital's involvement. A lot of pieces were missing but it just seemed
that this was on the right track, you know? It felt right. The kidnapping was in May, then during the
summer, a few months later, after talking to Nancy, I was watching a movie. In the beginning of the
movie they had a prologue that included a clipping from the New York Times, the clipping said
something like "...the CIA is looking for drugs that will create a perfect spy by creating amnesia for
specific events". When I saw that it just rang a bell. I thought "if that would be true, if there is such a
thing, that would explain so much". And the date of that clipping was August 1977 so of course I
couldn't wait to get to the library, and when I did get to the library, that was the beginning of the
discovery of the truth.
In the library I found that article and many other articles that were written around that time, and that was
the time of Senate Subcommittee Investigation of the CIA mind control and it gave names of places and
centres where the mind control had been going on, and I discovered, though there were only thirteen
listed in that particular set of papers from the Times, I discovered that some of those were places where I
had been. Syracuse University, and Penn State, and Cornell now. I think those were mentioned in the
1977 newspaper articles. Seeing that - and it also mentioned that there were 85 known centres for mind
control research in the U.S.A. but it didn't mention those others in the article. I wrote down all of the
places where I thought I had possibly been experimented on, and I went to the NY Times and I found a
reporter who had been involved in writing those stories in the 70's and I said could you just tell me if
these places were also involved. And he said yes, they were, but don't jump to any conclusions.
I was confident then that I was really on the right track. This event, this hospitalization was just one in a
series of events relating to mind control. But that was really the first that I knew of it, after I saw that
article in the newspaper.
Wayne Morris:
So you have been used in quite a number of locations and experiments. I wonder if we can talk about
each of these ...
Blanche Chavoustie:
We can. We can talk about all of them and they go right back until I was two years old.
Wayne Morris:
Why don't we start chronologically. What happened when you were two years old?
Blanche Chavoustie:
Actually I just discovered this ... I always knew this ... I never forgot it ... it isn't something that was
repressed, but I never fit this into the whole picture until about a month ago. When I was two years old,
my father came in my playroom and he had what I thought was a mousetrap and he put it down on the
floor and he put it under a cabinet that was in my room, and he told me "don't touch this, it will bite you"
and I think he put chocolate in it as bait. I didn't touch it that day, but the next day when he was gone to
work, I was trying to figure out how I could get the candy out of there without making it bite me. I
touched it, and it snapped, and I went running to my mother with this trap on my hand. She wouldn't
take it off. She just shut me in my playroom. I can't remember how I did get it off, and I spoke to her
about it last week. And it's interesting, she can't remember either. She remembers that it happened, and
she said that it wasn't a mouse trap, it was a rat trap. She doesn't know why she wouldn't take it off. She
said I told your father that he shouldn't do that ...
That was the beginning. And that is part of the Greenbaum programming. Now this is very interesting.
The Greenbaum programming was written about in the past few years, and I read what was written, but I
didn't connect it to being part of my life when I read about it. Different pieces had to fall into place first.
The reason I came to realize this thing about the mouse trap was because about a month ago, someone
asked me if I had any unusual childhood diseases. They pushed me on it, and when someone pushes me
on something like that and it doesn't make any logical sense, but they are interested, it gets me thinking.
Then I realized, when I was seven years old I did have something unusual happen. I was sleeping one
night and these three little guys came through my window, little men I thought they were. At the time I
described them as being similar to the cut-outs in the back of our dining room chairs. We had
straightback dining room chairs that had designs cut out of them. After these three little men came
through the window, a lady talked to me. That was all very strange. That was on the weekend, and on
Monday I had to go to the hospital because I had scarlet fever. When I was in the hospital the parish
priest came up to the window and talked to me, and I was on a high floor, so this was not a possibility in
reality. I was in the hospital for three weeks, and after I got out I asked my mother about the three little
guys that I saw, and the lady, and what about the priest coming up to my window. She said well they
were hallucinations because you had a temperature of 106. I accepted that and I never thought about it
again until one month ago when somebody started pushing me to discover if I had any unusual
circumstances surrounding childhood illnesses.
Once I accepted the possibly that was an experiment ... I knew when I was in the hospital at that time I
was one of the first children in the country to be given penicillin. The nurse told me that I was lucky it
was just becoming available ... it had been available before that, but it was just for the soldiers. I was
born in 1938 so I say I was seven years old, so around 1945.
Wayne Morris:
What makes you think it was not possibly caused by the fever that you had?
Blanche Chavoustie:
I didn't have a fever when it started - when the three little guys came through my window and the lady
talked to me - I didn't have a fever. I wasn't sick yet. That was just an ordinary day. I went to school and
everything. Two more days passed and I was sick. That set me thinking, maybe this was an experiment,
maybe I was part of an experiment. After that I read of Dr. Estabrooks, and I believe I was one of that
project - he wanted parents to allow their children to be observed and he promised that they would not
be interfered with, they would simply be observed, and the parents would be paid for this. I got to
thinking maybe this is what happened to me, I was in this experiment, I was seven years old, maybe my
father let me be observed. Then I remembered this Greenbaum thing which couldn't be denied in my
case because I have that big painting that I showed you ... it has complete Greenbaum symbolism in it.
(Subliminal art) You have a small copy of that. It has all the Greek letters, all of the symbols that would
go with those Greek letters. That is definitely a subliminal piece representing Greenbaum programming
and going back to the two year old incident of having a rat-trap on my hand that is a known procedure in
the Greenbaum programming.
Wayne Morris:
That particular act of using a mouse trap?
Blanche Chavoustie:
Yes. Yes. That's been written about. You can get the Greenbaum lecture off the web at MCF. It states in
there that this is one of the things they do.
Wayne Morris:
What do you think was the purpose of inflicting that kind of pain?
Blanche Chavoustie:
I've thought about it a lot. One thing is that it terminates your trust in your mother completely. To run to
her in such pain, and to have her shut you in your room. There you are, you'd better become self reliant
very fast.
Wayne Morris:
Were there any other events that happened in your childhood that would indicate that your parents were
involved in experimentation?
Blanche Chavoustie:
The parents in the particular experiment in Estabrooks' writing were told that the only requirement of
them was that they had at least three children. I know that shortly after my second sister was born, my
father won the lottery, so I thought maybe that was the payment. I can never prove any of these things
are related to Estabrooks' quest for subjects.
Wayne Morris:
Do you remember meeting or being involved in George Estabrooks experimentation?
Blanche Chavoustie:
No one ever told me it was Estabrooks experimentation. I have had to figure it out and I think I possibly
met him at Syracuse. I think he might have been the person who interrogated me at Syracuse University.
I am not sure.
Wayne Morris:
After the 7 year old experience, what happened after that?
Blanche Chavoustie:
I don't think anything ever happened after that until I was in college. I went to Oswego State Teachers
College which is on the Great Lakes, up on Lake Ontario. People helped me discover this. I thought I
was selected when I was a senior in College possibly because several times that year, and several times
in my junior year, my picture appeared in the local newspaper. I thought maybe that's when it happened.
I was talking to Jan Klimkowski at the BBC, and he said did you do anything earlier in your college
years that would have called attention to you? In my freshman year of college, in my psychology class
("Frontiers of the Mind") which involved four sections of students, because every freshman had to take
this, there was a teacher who taught all sections (400 students). She gave quizzes and midterms and a
final exam. The first midterm or quiz, I scored higher than anybody in those four sections by many
points, too many points for it to be a natural happening according to her. It was beyond statistical
probability. She watched me, she thought I was cheating, and then on the next test I got about the same
score. I didn't know this until after I graduated from college, and I met her. She told me this story and
she said on the first test you scored 11 or 15 points higher, on the next test you scored 20 points
higher ... and she said this was beyond what would be expected or possible. She wanted to know what I
had done, if I had cheated. I told her I could tell what was important to her, and those were the things I
studied.
What I think happened there is that all of the psychology departments in the U.S.A. had been invited by
Donovan and whoever worked with him to scout out people when the OSS was set up, so they were all
participating in one way or another, and they were probably glad to do it. At that time they were looking
to find people who were highly intuitive. I don't know if that's what she got from this test. I had always
been intuitive, I think now that probably was why I was selected, because of that happening in my
freshman year.
In the second half of my freshman year I called attention to myself again by fighting with my
psychology professor. It was the first week of school and they gave out the outline for the class and I
could see from the outline that it wouldn't be possible to do all the assignments based on the number of
kids in the class and the number of hours at the library that would be required. In those days they didn't
have copying like they do now, so if there was one copy of a book on reserve in the library and sixty
kids had to read it, you had to make 60 different hours available to read it. This professor gave us an
impossible schedule and I went to the Dean and told the Dean this isn't going to work, and that Professor
had to change the agenda. I did twice call attention to myself.
Wayne Morris:
Who do you think was behind the selection of people they apparently would be using in mind control
experiments?
Blanche Chavoustie:
I think, from what I just told you, it's possible that I was volunteered when I was a child. Maybe my
father thought it was his patriotic duty, I don't know. That would have meant that I was just "in the
program" and then later I was selected for another aspect of it. Maybe I was selected to be testing
penicillin. Maybe those little people that I saw coming through my window were actually a test of some
kind of technology that could be later used to trick people and make people think that aliens are coming
in.
Wayne Morris:
Some kind of technology to create the illusion of something?
Blanche Chavoustie:
Yes, and Estabrooks wrote in his dissertation (measures of intelligence by race) that the experimentation
must continue, and it must be above criticism. So I was thinking that all these things fit together - that if
they were developing some kind of characters that were 'holograms' like these little guys coming
through my window who would be influencing us, they would be above criticism ... if they are aliens,
they are just not available to be interacted with.
Wayne Morris:
Plus, I guess, just the general use of that to discredit your account, being something so unbelievable to
most people.
Blanche Chavoustie:
Right, right. In the beginning, you see, it wasn't a discrediting because my mother just said "oh well you
had a temperature" so that just sort of explained it and still left me to be a normal child. Do you know
what I mean?
Wayne Morris:
Did you come across any direct evidence of connections between the people involved in George
Estabrooks work and the psychology department at universities? George Estabrooks was operating in
that area as well, at Colgate College I believe in Upper State New York.
Blanche Chavoustie:
He graduated from Harvard. He has a D.Ed or PhD in Education, not psychology and one of his heroes
when he was at Harvard was Morton Prince who is the person who wrote the first significant book on
multiple personality. That was the story of Ms. Beauchamp, 600 pages. She was his client. He was not
the first person to write about multiple personality, but he was the first person who was thought to have
been manipulating a multiple personality. That was very interesting to George Estabrooks, who more or
less became the father of the intentionally created multiple personality and was very proud of that. That
shows in his writing.
Wayne Morris:
He was also involved, according to Dr. Colin Ross who has a large number of George Estabrooks'
documents, creating so-called Manchurian Candidates by using hypnosis Apparently he did brain
implant experiments on children and you are saying also that he was involved in the more trauma based
conditioning aspects of mind control as well.
Blanche Chavoustie:
He was. He believed in the use of different drugs, and he believed in implants. I don't know exactly what
they were doing, but they started in the Harvard Centre of Morton Prince to do experiments which
eventually were more widespread, but I think they were starting their research right there at that Harvard
Centre, called the Morton Prince Centre, which I believe Estabrooks actually founded. They went out
from there, and other Morton Prince Centres formed and I, as a young woman, worked in one of them
for a few years. That's another reason that I think I am connected to the Estabrooks project. In 1961
Estabrooks wrote The Future of the Human Mind, and he said they no longer needed hypnosis, that they
had developed a technique of implanting the brain and they had already done enough research to see
what the potential was there. They could already make people blink and sniffle and jerk, that the future
of this particular technique meant that anyone who was implanted would be totally controllable for the
rest of their life. He said that the Manchurian Candidate type, sometimes something can go wrong, you
can't be absolutely 100% sure because you are using just hypnosis. But if an implant is there, that person
is a victim for life, totally controllable.
Wayne Morris:
Do you believe you were personally involved in the brain implant experimentation?
Blanche Chavoustie:
I am absolutely sure that I am and I went to the hospital in the fall of 1961 at Penn State. I had a pain on
my hand, a small tumor on my hand. They told me I needed an operation on that. I believed them and I
went in and while I was being operating on, I was given a total anaesthetic, and I heard one doctor
saying this sexual message ... I don't think I can say it on the radio ... he kept repeating it, and I thought
he was saying it to the other doctor. I thought "boy, this is really weird," even thought I was semi
conscious, I heard it, and I thought it was weird, and I thought "I have to remember this". Then I did
remember but I never could make any sense out of it, the next day, or the next year. Whenever I thought
of it, I just remembered it as being very weird.
Now I see how it fits into the whole thing. That was the first programming I was receiving under a heavy
anaesthetic. I was totally unconscious. Then in 1966 I went to the hospital in Buffalo, New York for
another minor operation and there, when I woke up in the morning, I had a big blind spot in my right
peripheral vision. It was very difficult for me to sit facing a light because it was so uncomfortable to
have that blind spot looming in front of me. I went to the doctor and he said I had a brain tumour and he
did xrays, put me in the hospital. I stayed two weeks in the hospital and the examinations and the things
they did during that two weeks were horrendous, really horrendous. When I got out of the hospital and
went to the doctor for a checkup he showed me in the xrays where the tumour was, but it made no sense
that I went in for a minor operation and woke up with a brain tumour. Now I put that together, but when
these things happened, I didn't make sense of them.
Wayne Morris:
When you initially went to the hospital, was it an operation around your head?
Blanche Chavoustie:
No, no. It was a D&C operation, the scraping of the uterus. It's a minor procedure.
Wayne Morris:
But they gave you a total anaesthetic at that time, and you believe they had done an implant at that time?
Blanche Chavoustie:
Oh yes, because how could you possibly wake up with a brain tumour from another operation? And the
doctor showed me where it was on the xray, on the underside of my optic nerve. I didn't make the
connection then, but later I would be able to see things, see things as if they were on a film, as if they
were a dream, but not be sleeping. Now I understand that's what was happening ... this optic nerve
implant was enabling me to do this, to be able to see these things.
Wayne Morris:
Do you remember what happened to you during that two week period?
Blanche Chavoustie:
The two weeks I was in the hospital? They did different operations and things to me, they gave me a
spinal tap, and they did a pneumoencephalogram where they inject an ounce of air into your head. They
did a vertebral arteriogram where you have a stiletto stuck through your neck because they need to keep
you on your back but the stiletto goes into the front of your neck into the artery at the back of your
neck ... four guys hold you down because they can't give you an anaesthetic. It was really barbaric. And
the things that I just told you are only a few of the things that happened during those two weeks. It's
really horrible, so horrible that after I got out of the hospital, and I went for my checkup at the doctor's,
and the doctor told me he was in love with me ... and all of this totally inappropriate stuff. I was unable
to go back and see him again, but here I think I have a brain tumour. He already told me I had a brain
tumour. It was just totally insane, what was happening. I couldn't go back to him but I was so worried
because I had a brain tumour that needed to be checked but I couldn't go back to him. And the tests were
so horrendous, I couldn't bear going to somebody else and have to go through all that again. So I was
sort of stuck. And I had this big blind spot in my vision and I guess I just prayed a lot.
It took about two years, and the blind spot went away, and I didn't worry anymore that I had a brain
tumour.
Wayne Morris:
So this doctor was the same one who, when you were under anaesthetic, you heard these ...
Blanche Chavoustie:
No those doctors were at Penn State ... and this doctor, with the brain tumour, was in Buffalo.
Wayne Morris:
And you believe that at Penn State the doctor was actually speaking to you, or do you think it may have
been a tape? Was it the exact same ...
Blanche Chavoustie:
In retrospect, I think probably they just left me in a room with a tape, it probably wasn't one doctor
repeating the same message over and over again to the other doctor. It was probably a tape.
Wayne Morris:
Then after your experience in Buffalo, what happened?
Blanche Chavoustie:
It's pretty clear to me that each of these things that happened in an institution (a hospital, a school or a
mind research centre) that's just a set-up for you, that's setting you up for things that are going to happen
in your daily life as you go to work, as you socialize. It's just the underlying forces that are being put
into you to make things happen in your day-to-day life.
The next major centre that I went to was Syracuse University and I participated knowingly in an
experiment that I knew was designed to influence my mind. I don't remember exactly what the press
release was on this particular experiment, and I did try to find out. I thought maybe I had seen it
advertised in the school newspaper, and so I recently, within the past couple of years, called the Daily
Orange, which is the Syracuse University newspaper and asked if I could come in and go through their
archives and look for whatever advertisement I saw for this experiment. They don't allow people to do
that. They said they would look, but they never called me back. I don't know for sure that it was in the
Daily Orange, I don't remember for sure where I saw it. They offered to pay $35.00 if you came in for
two sessions. This would have been 1968 and they said you would be taking some projective tests and
you would be watching a movie. That seemed like it would be interesting.
So I went to the experiment at Syracuse, and the doctor introduced himself to me and I was surprised at
his appearance. I thought it would be a student, but he clearly was a man in his early 60's and he had a
young student with him taking notes. He said he wanted to inject me with something, but he didn't tell
me what it was. I didn't know that I was going to be injected with anything and I agreed. I figured he
wouldn't do anything to hurt me. Then he just sat and stared at me, and the student sat and stared at
me ... must have been a minute or two ... and I was thinking, well are they just going to stare at me? This
must be part of the experiment. And the next thing I know some considerable time has passed and I am
sitting at a table by myself, writing, and I am thinking. This is what I am supposed to do, I am supposed
to be writing. I am sort of disoriented, and I am trying to orient myself by telling myself what I am
doing. That was more or less the end of it for that day.
Wayne Morris:
Do you believe they injected you with some kind of drug that had knocked you out?
Blanche Chavoustie:
Right. It also caused me not to even think about it. Just forget about it. I had to go back the next week
and I met with the same doctor, and a different graduate student, and he looked at my arm where he had
injected me and he said, "how did you get this bruise?" and I said, "why you did that ..." and he said,
"that's impossible." Then he gave me another injection. One of those two times, he and another man
interrogated me, I think it must have been the first time. It was a horrible thing, and because of the
influence of the drug, I think I was conscious, but I couldn't think. They were accusing me of different
things, but I couldn't explain myself, and I couldn't defend myself. If that is what they call truth serum,
it's a joke, because nothing came from me that was the truth on that day. I couldn't even talk. It was
hideous. But I forgot about it for a long time.
I never would have remembered these things, or started putting pieces together if I hadn't gone to the
hospital at Cornell, if I hadn't been kidnapped.
Wayne Morris:
You went just the twice there for the experiment?
Blanche Chavoustie:
I went those two times for the paid part of the experiment, but I think many other things happened that
year that were a result of that. I was a graduate student there in the School of Journalism that year, and I
lived near the campus in a private apartment. One morning when I woke up, it felt so much like
electricity was going through my body, that I examined my bed every possible way to see if there was
any way it could have been touching something on a wall (a wall socket). There was no way. But I just
had that feeling so strongly that I thought that was true. I think that was related. I think many times they
have used electricity on me. I know they have.
Wayne Morris:
Going back to those two experiments you volunteered for, right after those what was your involvement
with the people who had done the experiments? Did you approach them again?
Blanche Chavoustie:
No, I never talked to them again. I was quite familiar with those kinds of experiments, not necessarily
the experiments where people are injected with stuff, but I was a graduate student at Penn State and I
helped sometimes with different experiments that were being run there. It wasn't an unfamiliar thing to
me. After doing the experiments at Syracuse, I think my life was radically changed in that I decided that
I was moving to New York to get a job as a writer, and I did that. I went to New York City, went to an
agent who sent me to a place where people worked on house organs, you know, it was a place that put
out three or four different house organs for different companies. The interview there didn't work out, and
so she spoke to me again and sent me to another big company, and I was hired on the spot for a job I
wasn't really qualified for, which was being senior editor of a science project. I was hired, and I found an
apartment in one week. I went to a place in Glenwood, N.Y. which is near Jonkers, saw an apartment,
and took it. I can't remember who told me to go there. It turned out to be the building that David
Berkowitz lived in. I moved out in 1972, and I think he moved into the building in 1973. I believe he
was on the top floor, and I had been on the 4th floor. Many strange things happened in that building.
Wayne Morris:
Just to take a step back. Before you had the experiments done at Syracuse, what kinds of future plans did
you have?
Blanche Chavoustie:
Before starting that term at Syracuse, I was recently divorced. My husband and I split up in 1966. We
had been married since 1960, and I hoped that I would get married again, and teach school, or whatever.
At the time I was working as a counsellor in the public school system. Some place in the back of my
mind, I always wanted to be a writer, so it wasn't way off track for me to go to journalism school, but it
wasn't anything that would have happened if I had stayed married and lived with my husband.
Moving to New York was very scary for me. I grew up in Syracuse, New York and then I attended Penn
State, and then I lived in Buffalo. These are little tiny places compared to New York. I came to New
York all alone, not knowing a single soul here, to a job that I wasn't really qualified for, to an apartment
where I knew no one. It was a great adventure, to say the least.
Wayne Morris:
What I am trying to get at is do you feel you were influenced in some way to make that move?
Blanche Chavoustie:
I think I was influenced when I was at Syracuse in that experiment to make the decision to move to New
York and to look for a job. I think the person at the placement agency sent me to a job that was
specifically waiting for me. I think it was all arranged, that everything was set up. That I was moving
into place. Then once I was in my job, in a totally controlled environment, and in an apartment in
another controlled environment there, and not knowing any other people other than the people I was
meeting through where I lived and worked, I was in a web, a complete web, and I couldn't get out unless
someone on the outside would give me a helping hand and pull me out.
Two weeks after getting the job, without any consultation with me, an assistant was hired for me and
they just brought her into my office one day and said, this is your assistant. She was definitely planted
on me. Six months after that, another person was hired to work on the same job as mine, but to work on
another section of the project, and she was definitely planted on me. I sent you pictures of her. She was
definitely a multiple personality, and a very interesting woman, very bright, very interesting. These
people were able to influence me in every way.
Certain people seemed to be involved there as part of a network designed to influence me, control me.
This was more or less verified by one day, these women and myself, and one other woman whom I
haven't mentioned (we were the editorial department) ... all three of them were fired on one day, and
there I was, by myself. They just disappeared. I think they were there for the length of time they were to
influence me, and to maybe even help me with the job. Because of my being there, serious things
happened to other people, and I don't feel I can talk about what happened to other people.
In the apartment building, David Berkowitz wrote about it - that voices came through the walls, and he
was so upset by this that he kicked holes in the walls in his apartment. He heard voices, he had strong
influences on him in that building. Those same things were going on sometimes with my daughter, and
she was drawing strange things, and she was very upset. I took the drawings that she did, the dreams that
she had -- and I consulted a psychiatrist in New York. He wouldn't look at them. He just said, "well, if
your daughter is upset, then you need to be in therapy." He wanted me to become a patient, but I went to
someone else, and that second person told me basically the same thing.
One of the people at work influenced me to choose another therapist, and talk to him about these things.
I gave it another try. This third person is the one who took me on a date to Cornell Medical Centre, and
he was an enormous influence in my life. He is the person in the photograph I gave you ... he is sitting
outside my apartment in 1991 or 92 after I got out of the hospital ... some 20 years later. He was hanging
around harassing me, and once I met him, he was in my life. I couldn't shake him. I even sent you a copy
of a brief piece from one of the letters he wrote me, saying that he feels he has to "hurt me". I mean, this
is really sick and sadistic, and it seems so endless. It has been going on for my whole life.
Wayne Morris:
This person became your therapist for how long?
Blanche Chavoustie:
A little over a year, and after that I never got rid of him.
Blanche Chavoustie:
Many of the things that happened to me - when they happened seemed like coincidence. Often they
involved seeing things, and now I know that I have this implant on the underside of my optic nerve
which is why I could see things. Then they would come to pass. I would see something in my mind and
then I would later see it in reality and I would think there must be some great significance to this, on my
path, something I am supposed to do. I would try to explain it to myself that way.
Wayne Morris:
In the early seventies, you had some involvement with a dream laboratory. Can you talk about that?
Blanche Chavoustie:
When I first came to New York I was invited by somebody whom I can't remember - I think it was
somebody who was in a pottery class with me - told me we could go over to the dream lab and they
would show us the movie about their work, and they would be glad to have us over there. That was the
first time I went, it must have been 1971. I remember we did see a movie but I can't remember what else
happened there that day. Later, maybe 1973 or 74, the person asked me to go to that lab and take a
student there, and to take my daughter also. (At the time I was the head of a guidance department in a
public school system.) So I did. This second time, we were invited to participate in experiments in an
informal way, stuff that was set up there. I tried a psychokinesis experiment that involved influencing
the direct a pellet would roll as they went down a chute ... I was told I had scored the highest score that
had ever been attained on that particular piece of equipment and I was invited to come back and
participate in a formal experiment.
I returned, and the formal experiment involved being put in an isolation room with very thick walls, and
I was put in a reclining chair. They placed electrodes over my body, and over my eyes they placed what
might be described as pingpong balls cut in half. The room was dark and they turned a red light on so
through the pingpong balls I could just see a red background. I had a headset on that played white sound
in a form of waves, it sounded like the ocean. The task I was given was to make the waves increase in
speed by relaxing to deeper and deeper levels. It was biofeedback. The person who came to the lab with
me was put in another room, and a subliminal flash of a painting was shown to her. This is what I was
told. I was supposed to try and see the painting they had shown her and I was to say out loud all the
images that came into my mind. I started relaxing, and images began coming to my mind, and I would
say them out loud. I think they were taping it. After the experiment was over, they showed me the
painting. I had been right on target. I had scored a direct hit, I named most of the things that were in the
painting, and that was pretty interesting and exciting to me.
Wayne Morris:
And you corroborated this with your friend who was shown the flash of this painting?
Blanche Chavoustie:
No, she didn't see it. How I knew I had scored a direct hit to the painting was that they brought the
painting to me and it was a famous image. Seven men building a ship, one of them was holding a pipe,
behind them was a certain design that looked like a 7. Superimposed on the painting, they had drawn
two things - a little gremlin type figure, shape of a laboratory flask with a long neck and a round body;
and a human ear. I was able to do the experiment there, and then afterwards some people who ran a
centre in New York asked me to teach a course in your psychic ability? Next thing I knew, I was
teaching a course on testing yourself for psychic ability. After that someone came from one of the major
television networks and made a video of me teaching this course. Then the school where I was employed
asked me to do some workshops there. So one thing always led to another.
Wayne Morris:
Looking back, what do you think actually happened there in this dream research lab experiment? Were
they actually measuring your telepathic abilities?
Blanche Chavoustie:
No, I think it was the development of what people are calling synthetic telepathy now. That I was one of
the people they were developing the technology on. I thought I could see things because I was telepathic,
but actually it was probably electromagnetic fields.
Wayne Morris:
Some kind of signalling with electromagentic equipment ...
Blanche Chavoustie:
After I did the workshops, again I was successful, and many people in the audience were successful and
I believe the same thing was going on there - that electromagnetic fields were being generated and
received.
Wayne Morris:
I wonder if we could talk about what your experiences were at the hypnotherapy centre and the
particular doctor who was involved in directing that?
Blanche Chavoustie:
That person is still directing it ... the Morton Prince Centre. I worked there as a freelance agent more or
less, I saw clients privately, but I worked there several days a week. As far as anything strange
happening there, I can't tell you that anything did but many strange things happened in my life during
the time I was there. Relationships, going to places I wouldn't ordinarily have ... but I can't prove it.
Milton Kline ran the Centre at the time and his work was reported by John Marks in "The Search for the
Manchurian Candidate". He was quoted as saying he could create a "patsy" in three months and an
assassin in six. He was also mentioned as a person who was an advisor to the CIA on the construction of
Manchurian Candidates. I think this work has probably continued in these Morton Prince Centres which
is maybe why they were set up.
Wayne Morris:
What was your involvement with Milton Kline?
Blanche Chavoustie:
He ran the Centre, and I worked there as a psychotherapist for a couple of years, and I was a student
there for a year before that. While I worked there I was independent. I had a private office and I worked
in their Centre 3 days a week. After that I took a full-time job in a private school. There I was very much
influenced ... I was set up for that job. I was given the advertisement from the newspaper by someone. I
left the ad on my desk for a few weeks, and finally applied. when I went for the job interview I realized
that it wasn't a very good job for me and I called the Director and told her that I wished to drop out of
the interview process. Someone from the school called and said "oh no, you can't drop out - you're the
one the teachers really want, please etc." I think I was flattered by this and I stayed in the running, and I
got the job. Everything in my life there was manipulated. I was the head of the middle school at this
private school. Later, the same person who had called me and pleaded with me to take the job at this
school, came to my office and said she wanted to have a few therapy sessions with me. I saw her, and
during these sessions we talked, and she influenced me to be familiar and be inclined towards going to
see a doctor who had been a psychiatrist who became a nutritionist. I went to see this doctor to see if she
wanted to employ me because she hired people who did therapy and hypnosis to work with some of her
clients.
When I got out of the hospital, this particular doctor was on my mind, and I went to her. About the
second or third time, I realized the record she was keeping was wrong. She had written that she was
treating me for parasites that I got in the Orient. This was very strange because I had never been to the
Orient and I had never been tested for parasites, nor had she carried out tests. So I realized she was
keeping a false record me. I didn't actually see her every time I went to the office, she was very busy,
and I would see different people who helped in her office - different kinds of health practitioners. The
next time I went to her office I read my record again and now there is a false psychological report in
there - "this is a person who would never go for therapy because of her personality, a person with a dull
mind" - things that just weren't too true. The third time I looked in my folder a few weeks later - now she
has a false report from the hospital in a summary. It says, among other things, that I refused
psychological testing while in the hospital. I begged them, every one of them, to please give me a
psychiatric work-up and I did in fact take a psychological test called an MMPI. She now has a false
record on me. While I was in her office this day I had to see several differet practitioners and I had over
an hour wait between two of them. I started marking my file. I underlined and circled parts that were
wrong and wrote "error" beside incorrect statements. Then I realized there were too many mistakes for
this to be an accident and I decided to make a copy of the file. I took the file and hurried down the street
with it. When I got to the corner, I asked the man at the stopligt if he know where there was a copy
machine, and he pointed down the street at a copy store. I went in and copied the information ... and in
comes the man I had just seen at the corner, he is following me. He stands there watching me. Two more
people came in the store and they are standing there watching me. Meanwhile the store had been empty
when I first came in there except for the clerk. I had been followed a lot, stalked, harassed, I knew that's
what was happening. Instead of going directly back to the office I went home and put the copies in my
house. When I came back to the doctors office one of the people in the office told me they had been
waiting for me. Another person came in and took the folder in which I had written which parts weren't
true and signed it. Then the office manager came to me and said, "The Doctor wants to see you." When I
went into the doctor's office, she closed the door, and said "what did you steal?" One of the girls said I
had stolen something from the office. I said I took my folder and I want you to know it's wrong. I wrote
on it and you can see that I didn't steal it. She wanted to look in my purse, I didn't want her to, but I
didn't feel I could say no. So she looked in my purse. She was satisfied then. There was nothing in it.
I have a case in court - it started in 1991. Recently the court wanted all the records of all the doctors I
had ever been to practically since I was born. I was afraid she was going to turn in some false records on
me. Much to my surprise, she said that she had no records of me. Isn't that interesting? Probably because
I said in the deposition that this person was keeping false records of my treatment.
Wayne Morris:
In court were you able to show the copies false records?
Blanche Chavoustie:
Yes, I still have them. I still have her bills, cancelled cheques. She doesn't have records of me but I have
records of seeing her. This doctor is just one of several incidents that have happened with doctors that
have left me now afraid to go to the doctor. I haven't gone for regular mammograms and things like that
since I got out of the hospital. Recently I had a bladder infection for a week and I was too afraid to go,
so I just went into an emergency clinic in a hospital where they didn't know me, where I didn't have an
appointment. Too many doctors have been involved.
Wayne Morris:
Did you have experiences with doctors that you were later able to identify were involved in the CIA
mind control?
Blanche Chavoustie:
When I went to the library and started finding out the names of the different centes and the different
people, I realized that many of the centres and people that were involved in my case were actually
named in the Church Committee Hearings. Still we don't know absolutely positively that this is CIA
mind control because these people were involved in that - they could have been doing this independently
- there could have been somebody else behind it. It seems to me that some of them have been very
surprised to discover the things that have happened in my life linking back further and further. In Nazi
Germany everyone claimed they didn't know what was going on, even the people who lived around the
camps. I think that's what is going on here with this mind control stuff. Nobody really has the whole
pictures. Different pockets of people are doing different things and it just got out of hand.
I wrote a little piece called "Bill Ding", and it's about the domino effect. One person is set up to press on
another, and another, and another - finally the whole line goes down but no one knows anything except
who was behind them and who was in front of them and they would be very surprised to see the whole
picture.
Wayne Morris:
It seems to be standard operating procedures for intelligence agencies where they compartmentalize the
information so that no one person gets the big picture. Can you talk about Dr. Harold Wolff?
Blanche Chavoustie:
Dr. Wolff was mentioned in "The Search for the Manchurian Candidate". He was the head of Cornell
and the Human Ecology Society at the same time. He wasn't the head of the hospital when I went there.
He said in that book that it was important to understand the ways children were raised and the influences
of the culture, then you can use these influences in mind control. He said that he would offer the
unwitting use of Cornell patients for mind control patients.
Wayne Morris:
He has been well documented and the Human Ecology Society has been well documented as a funding
front for the CIA mind control experimentation.
Blanche Chavoustie:
He was head of both of them at the time. Cornell was where I was taken, and I thought there was
probably a big chance of people running the hospital sharing his philosophy.
Wayne Morris:
You feel you were involved in the mind control experimentation through the areas of drug
experimentation, brain implants. Was hypnosis used with you?
Blanche Chavoustie:
Yes it was. Hypnosis was used probably beginning in Buffalo, in 1964. There was a psychologist who
worked in the schools where I worked. I can remember he would just sort of look in my eyes and there
was this very, very deep connection with him. Like someone you had known for your whole life, even
though I hadn't known him very long. I remember walking along beside him one day, and my arm
bumped into him and it was like electricity went through my whole body. That was such a strange thing
to me that I never would have told anybody, except that I have been reading accounts of this in other
places where other victims say this happens to them. I have no way of explaining it, but I know it
happens to people. It was at that time I became connected to him in some way that he had unusual
influence over me.
I think that was the beginning of the use of hypnosis on me, and there are many ways for hypnosis to
take place that are not easily recognizable, it is disguised hypnosis often. But many times, it was induced
hypnosis. When I was in college - 1956-58 - I was hypnotized by a teacher at Oswego State Teachers
College. He also used electricity on me, but I didn't remember that at all until I had a deprogrammer
come to help me.
Wayne Morris:
You had also become familiar with hypnosis through the work you were doing with your SuperSelf
program. How did you incorporate hypnosis in there?
Blanche Chavoustie:
This is a very long story. I wanted to become a psychoanalyst, and I went into psychoanalytic training
here in the New York area. I had taken about seven courses, I was a top student, and I had a lot of
recognition for it. I was put into advanced classes and I have letters still from more than one of the
professors saying how insightful and dedicated I was. At the end of taking seven courses, I would have
matriculated and started working in their clinic but I had to take an oral exam from two people who
hadn't taught me, who didn't know me. I went to the exam and they failed me. They wrote me a letter,
which I still have, saying 'even though you know approximately what you should know at this level of
your training, even though you have excellent recommendations, even though your work record is
superior, even though your teachers think you are terrific - we are going to fail you because we think
you are too immature.' So I failed the exam and that meant I couldn't see clients.
That was really hard on me. I had been thinking I was a good student. I was looking forward to a career
as a psychoanalyst, it seemed to suit me, I was doing well, and, then to fail ... it was devastating in a
way.
The same therapist who was hanging around my apartment after I got out of the hospital, who took me
out on a date ... shortly after I took that exam I was walking down the street in New York and I ran into
him. He was carrying a book he said was for me. I hadn't seen him in years. Whenever there is a
coincidence in my life I am very wary now, because it could be a set up. We had a talk and I told him
what was going on. He said you could start your practice, use my office, etc. and next thing you know I
started seeing clients in his office on Saturdays. I had supervision and everything, and it was something
else that had been set up. With his influence and the circumstances I went for training in hypnosis and
that's how I got into that and started seeing people for hypnosis - usually they came to break habits like
overweight, smoking, those were the most common reasons.
Wayne Morris:
Did you ever test yourself in terms of prone to hypnosis you are?
Blanche Chavoustie:
Yes. I think on a scale of 1-5 I score high, 4. Sometimes narcohypnosis has been used on me - you are
injected with something and then you are hypnotized. I think anyone would be totally susceptible.
Wayne Morris:
Are you aware of other mind control technologies that were used on you, or that you suspect?
Blanche Chavoustie:
They used programming - the Greenbaum programming which involved conditioning. There are signals
- hand and verbal signals, so that what you see triggers some kind of behavior that has nothing to do in
reality with the signal. Tapping 3 times might put you into a trance and might push you to doing
something that was a post-hypnotic suggestion. Certain things that are said ... remember the movie, "The
Manchurian Candidate?" They say, 'why don't you go play some solitaire?' and the next thing that is said
to him is a command and he does it, including jumping in the lake when that is accidentally said to him
when he is in a bar one time.
Wayne Morris:
Are you cognizant of how this was used in terms of trigger words bringing out some kind of
programming?
Blanche Chavoustie:
I don't know really. I know that people say something to you - it seems totally innocent - like the phrase
"Chavoustie, Travesty" - that is one of the things that is said to me and it triggers a whole group of
associations related to being kept in a network. In my whole life no one ever said that to me until I was
about 48 years old and one day someone asked me to pronounce my name and I said "Chavoustie." And
they said, "Oh, Chavoustie, Travesty. Chavoustie rhymes with Travesty." And I thought that's a weird
thing to say to me but the next week someone else said the same thing, and the next week someone else
said it. Eventually that became something that created anxiety in me, not because of what was said, but
if I was in Sydney Australia and someone said that to me, I would know that person was in on it. It's like
I am connected to a whole network. It's such an unusual thing to say. Another thing that was said to me,
in one day seven different people came to me and said "do you know what time it is?" That was strange,
I noted it. The next day the same thing happened. So when that happens again, it reactivates that feeling
of being in a network of people who are doing strange things. I recently was talking to a mind control
experimentee - 20 different people in one day said to her "do you know what time it is?" You are
reminded - it is like tapping into that feeling of being a victim or being trapped.
Wayne Morris:
But they are using very common things that would not be unusual to someone else. I am getting the
feeling these are just a few examples of what has been used on you.
Blanche Chavoustie:
They are so clever. If you try to explain to somebody who doesn't understand what is going on, you
sound like you are crazy. Not harassed. It is this devious planning that sets you up to look crazy. Worse
than before you tried to explain yourself.
Wayne Morris:
You do have a legal case against the Cornell Medical Centre at New York Hospital.
Blanche Chavoustie:
It has been six years in the Supreme Court, and it is now in appeal. I am afraid of doctors and they want
me to go to their psychologist or psychiatrist for an examination, and I want to be excused from that, or
go to someone appointed by the court or something. The judge dismissed the case when I asked for that.
He didn't have a hearing on it or anything - so it went to appeal.
Wayne Morris:
Is the case against the Cornell Medical Centre for wrongly detaining you at the hospital?
Blanche Chavoustie:
There are 13 allegations. It's for violations of civil rights and malpractice. I had a time finding someone
to take the case. Several people who said they would take it and did take it (one person kept it for 16
months before he gave it back it to me). As soon as I opened the case, six months later the Hospital
opened a case against me. I have been struggling with that. Their case against me has been dismissed
twice and it has been off the calendar for over a year, and they were trying to open it again last summer.
Now they say they are not going to. It has been six years they have been - it seems like - torturing me
with it. I think if they had a case they would have won it by now. They have the best lawyers and
resources available. That case has been in and out of court for all these years, and my case has had a lot
of problems because there have been delays on the part of judges in making decisions. It seems so slow.
Wayne Morris:
In terms of their case against you, what was the nature of the allegations?
Blanche Chavoustie:
They wanted to sue me for fees, believe it or not. They had never billed me. They just opened a lawsuit
against me. They never had any grounds. I didn't sign any papers. I told them from the very beginning
that I had no means of paying them and I didn't have insurance. I didn't have the kind of money to pay
for hospital bills like that and I didn't have a need to be there. One of the things that happened - the
lawyer I hired to defend me in that case created a false affidavit which if he had been able to present it in
court, it would have been evidence they could have used in this other case I have against them. The false
affidavit he created would not only have lost that case for me, but it would have been evidence that
possibly would have lost my case against them.
Three weeks before he and I were to go to court, I saw the papers he was planning to present and I told
him I did not want him to represent me any further. He refused to stop representing me. It was
unbelievable. I told him that, and I wrote him a registered letter, but he insisted on going to court. I was
bewildered as to what I should do, but I went to court on the same day. When my case was called, the
lawyer for the hospital went up before the judge and he went up before the judge, and I went up before
the judge. I handed the judge the paper I had sent to him and I said 'your honour ... this is what is going
on here ... I don't want this man representing me'. The judge looked at what I had written and he was
very harsh with him, and he said "these are very serious allegations she is making ... you do what she
says ... you withdraw from the case immediately." This was the guy I had hired to help me.
The affidavit was only false in the way it was put together. There was no actual wording that was false,
but it said things like "I left the hospital at the first opportunity" - I did leave the hospital at the first
opportunity, but the day I should have been allowed to leave the hospital was the first day I was there
when their own psychiatrist wrote in my records, "this woman is not psychotic, she's not dangerous" - at
that point, that should have been the first opportunity but that wasn't made into an opportunity.
When I took a psychological test that showed that there was nothing psychologically wrong with me,
that should have been an "opportunity to leave" but that wasn't presented to me as an opportunity. The
first "opporunity" I had to leave was on the 22nd or 23rd day when the court order came through and
said I was being transferred. So, to put in the affidavit that I was allowed to leave the hospital at the first
opportunity was grossly misleading. By omission, or by implication, the affidavit was false.
So the judge told him to withdraw from the case, to go immediately across the hall and do it before he
left the building. And out in the hall, the lawyer told me he was not withdrawing from my case that day,
he would withdraw on the 15th when the case came to summary judgment or whatever. The judge didn't
make it an order, he just told him to do it. I was bewildered. If that false affidavit had become valid, I
would have lost everything.
So I went to another lawyer and asked him what to do. He didn't know what to do, he had never heard of
such a thing. I wound up going to the disciplinary committee of the supreme court and explaining in
writing what happened, and waiting for their reply and they said he didn't do anything wrong, believe it
or not. So then I wrote another letter to the disciplinary committee thinking I must not have explained
myself. The second time it came back that he didn't do anything wrong. After the judge told him to
withdraw, and he didn't withdraw, I waited one day because I had to think about it, and I didn't know
what to do. That was on a Wednesday that it happened. So on Thursday I didn't do anything, but on
Friday I went back down to the court - I know you are not supposed to see the judge unless the other
side is there but I had to ask him if there was anything else I could do. When I went there, he wasn't
there. He was in the hospital believe it or not. So I couldn't ask him anything. And I had to wait several
weeks before he came back to the courtroom, maybe even several months, and when he came back he
had a totally different attitude toward me. He told me that if he told the lawyer that he had to withdraw
from the case, that it was just a suggestion, and the lawyer didn't have to do it. There I was. It's been a
real battle. I am exhausted by it.
Wayne Morris:
What is the current status? What is your next move?
Blanche Chavoustie:
We filed an appeal and within the next nine months it will come up again and the case will come to
court. I have two good lawyers.
Wayne Morris:
I would like to ask you a question - when you felt like you were being influenced to do something, what
you were feeling at the time? How did it feel to be controlled?
Blanche Chavoustie:
It feels different ways. It depends on what the situation is like. Lately sometimes a foreign idea will
cross my mind that is unlike anything I have ever thought, or been, or done, or stood for in life. Like
"look at the person over there - he looks like a slob" or "he looks like a stupid idiot". I never thought that
way and I never said things like that. When these thoughts come on my mind, I feel like they are being
projected there. I don't feel they belong to me. It is so foreign. Another example of this is one day a long
time ago, when I was single, I had a date with a person and during that time of four or five hours, I
found myself swearing, cursing, using foul language - and I never have done that in my whole life - I
have never talked like that. It was surprising to me that I would say those things. Each time that you do
something that is not part of you, but is being projected onto you, you are likely to have a different
experience of it. Usually for me, no one is more surprised about what is happening than I am, and it's
like you lose a sense of intimacy with yourself. You can't tell who you are, what you are likely to do
when you go out. Kay Bashier's book talks about this. She was getting messages like, "kill your
children" - she is very smart, and introspective, and she was able to figure out why this was happening.
Her book will be very helpful to everyone who is wondering if they might be a victim, or anyone who
knows someone who is a victim and wants to understand better what is going on.
Wayne Morris:
Blanche, you are the U.S.A. contact for the Advocacy Committee for Human Experimentation Survivors
- Mind Control (ACHES-MC). What is the work you do with ACHES-MC and what are your goals?
Blanche Chavoustie:
Well, we have recently, as you know, completed a video which is meant to inform people in the general
public - it was a message to the President on Memorial Day asking him to help us. We are trying to get
this network torn down that has been doing this. We would like to have a Hearing. We would like him to
know, Mr. President, what exactly people who are mind control survivors are saying. And we want him
to have an investigation of what they are saying, find out what exactly is going on, and what can be done
to stop it. We hope Senator John Glenn's bill will pass - a bill banning experimentation on humans. We
advocate for victims and we help them network with each other. We try to bring this mind control
situation to the attention of authorities who can help us take it down.
Wayne Morris:
Approximately how many survivors have you been in touch with and in what geographical locations?
Blanche Chavoustie:
I think there are a lot of survivors from around the Great Lakes, all of the Great Lakes seem to have a
higher percentage than the other states. They are actually in every state in the U.S.A. and all over
Canada too, but there is a heavy concentration around the Great Lakes. And Lynne Moss-Sharman, who
was on your program today, and I were both victims in the town of Oswego. That was how we got to
know each other actually, at a conference in Dallas a couple of years ago. It's a horrible thing to be in the
situation she was in as a little girl, but it was so wonderful to meet her and to have my own experience
validated, and I think it as for her too - to meet somebody - it was like you were both in the same
concentration camp - you didn't know each other when you were there - but you are able to validate the
experiences you have had, because you have been in the same rooms, you've been with maybe some of
the same people.
Wayne Morris:
And you both have been in contact with a lot of survivors who have been involved with mind control
experimentation ...
Blanche Chavoustie:
Several hundred people who have participated in the data bank, and we have been in contact with
thousands of people who have either sent us e-mails or called us or in some way communicated that they
think they are victims. We don't think that every single person who talks to us necessarily is a victim,
but we think that every person who thinks they are a victim should have an opportunity to tell their
story. Let it be investigated.
Wayne Morris:
What is your sense of how many people, adults and children, who were involved in these experiments?
This is going back now almost 50 years.
Blanche Chavoustie:
I can't say. It is enormous though, it is enormous. I wouldn't want to speculate on a number.
Wayne Morris:
What would you say are the main concerns of mind control survivors now?
Blanche Chavoustie:
Individuals who are mind control survivors usually are very stressed financially, most of them are on
disability, if indeed they get that, some of them don't even have that. Most of them have serious health
concerns. We need to have help that will allow people to get a true evaluation of their situation, and then
treatment for it, that will include help with their relationships within their families. In general the group
of victims needs to be heard. The public needs to know that it is going on because they are all at risk,
and the only way to prevent becoming a victim, if there is any way at all, is to be at least very aware of
what is going on.
Wayne Morris:
What would you like to see as an outcome of Presidential Hearings, or a Canadian Commission of
Inquiry into the mind control experiments, particularly on children?
Blanche Chavoustie:
I would like to see the public begin to become aware that this is going on and to realize that they may
very well be victims. I would like compensation in some cases - people who have lost so much - their
lives have been devastated by this. I would like to see it stopped ...
Wayne Morris:
I would like to thank you, Blanche, for joining us as part of this radio series and wish you the best of
luck in your legal case and yourself personally.
We have been listening to an interview with Blanche Chavoustie, a survivor of U.S. government mind
control. This has been show #31 in the series on mind control. More information about ACHES-MC and
their campaign and video can be found at their website http://www.aches-mc.org Tapes and transcripts
of this radio series are now available at the office of CKLN at the price of $8 per tape or $3 per
transcript of each show. You can call the station to get a catalogue of tapes available at 416-595-1477
during office hours. I would also like to thank everyone who pledged their generous support during our
CKLN funding drive two weeks ago.


Professor Alan Scheflin
Risk Management in Dissociative
Disorder and Trauma Therapy
CKLN 88.1 FM - Ryerson Polytechnical University, Toronto Ontario
Wayne Morris:
Good morning, you are listening to CKLN 88.1 and this is show #32 on the radio series on Mind
Control. Today we are going to hear a presentation by Professor Alan Scheflin given at the recent
International Society for the Study of Dissociation (ISSD) and International Society for Traumatic Stress
Studies (ISTSS) conferences at a joint session in Montreal given this last Sunday, on November 9, 1997.
This talk is entitled Risk Management in Dissociative Disorder and Trauma Therapy and is very timely
in the wake of some disturbing legal developments against psychotherapy recently. There was a $10.6
million lawsuit settled out of court in Chicago for a therapist who treated DID or MPD, also more
recently, the U.S. government has brought criminal charges against Judith Peterson, a Texas
psychologist who treats dissociative clients. The charges allege that Dr. Peterson intentionally created
and diagnosed DID and intentionally implanted false memories in her patients in order to keep them in
hospital longer, thereby providing fraudulent therapy for traumas that did not occur. Also Dr. Peterson is
being charged with mail fraud as she had mailed some of her bills to her clients for this allegedly
fraudulent therapy. The federal government has only interviewed her patients who retracted and their
attornies, and have not interviewed Dr. Peterson and other positive witnesses. The alleged victims of
fraud filed multiple complaints to the Texas Board of Psychology which has dismissed eleven of the
complaints against Dr. Peterson. In addition numerous complaints against her have been filed with the
Texas Department of Mental Health and Mental Retardation, and the Texas Department of Health, and
through their investigation she was found to be without fault in each complaint.
With these government indictments, Dr. Peterson will be forced to mount an expensive legal defence
against these criminal charges. This is a precedent setting move for the U.S. government. Allegations of
this type have in the past been dealt with in civil courts as malpractice or negligence complaints. If the U.
S. government is successful in its prosecution, this will in effect criminalize psychotherapy.
So for today's show, we are going to hear this very timely talk by Alan Scheflin who is a Professor of
Law at Santa Clara University in California, and was one of the original writers and researchers of CIA
and US army mind control experimentation in his book, "The Mind Manipulators". He has recently co-
written an encyclopedic reference called, "Memory, Trauma Treatment and the Law", just published in
the past month. This book provides guidelines for therapists dealing with MPD, DID, and trauma
survivors in this atmosphere of lawsuits against them which is encouraged and aided by such groups as
the FMSF.
And now, Professor Alan Scheflin, with an introduction by Dr. Marlene Steinberg, of Yale University
(Conference Chair) at the recent ISSD conference:
Dr. Marlene Steinberg:
Today's joint sessions focus on recent advances in both treatment and research of trauma survivors.
While research on PTSD and the dissociative disorders has progressed considerably over the last decade,
we have worked relatively independently of one another. We here also celebrate the ISSD's conference
theme, "The Brink of a New Era" which also applies to today's joint sessions. Since we all treat trauma
survivors, be they veterans or adult victims of abuse, it is crucial that we work together to foster clinical
advances. On behalf of ISSD and ISTSS, I hope that these sessions will both help you in the treatment of
trauma survivors, and lead to collaborative projects among members of the two societies. So I welcome
you.
Now I would like to introduce a keynote speaker, Professor Alan Scheflin. This is indeed an honour,
because I can think of nobody whose work integrates such crucial areas in mental health as Alan
Scheflin. Alan is Professor of Law at Santa Clara University Law School. His expertise covers clinical
and experimental research on hypnosis, memory and trauma treatment, as well as their import in the law.
He is the forensic editor of the Journal of the American Society of Clinical Hypnosis, and has co-
authored numerous books, including "The Mind Manipulators", "Trance on Trial", "Clinical Hypnosis
and Memory". His professional awards are numerous and include the American Psychiatric
Association's Manfred Goodmacher Award in 1991. In addition, Professor Scheflin has been recognized
in federal court as an expert on mind and behaviour control and in state court as an expert on
suggestibility, memory and hypnosis. Professor Scheflin's most recent book, co-authored with Drs.
Brown and Hammond, "Memory, Trauma Treatment and the Law" has just been published by Norton
last month, and Professor Scheflin will be available at 4.45 for a book signing.
Given the recent controversy about traumatic memory, this book is essential reading for all of us
involved in treating trauma survivors. We are fortunate to have Alan here today, and to share with us his
thoughts on risk management in dissociative disorder and trauma therapy. Please help me welcome
Professor Alan Scheflin:
Alan Scheflin:
Thank you Marlene and good afternoon. It is indeed an honour to be here, and talk with both of your
important organizations on a topic of grave concern to all of us. I feel especially privileged because I am
very much aware of the great humanitarian work you do with people whose lives have been shattered by
the worst of human atrocities and natural disasters. You spend your days healing, and helping and caring
and curing, and the attacks on you are unwarranted and unfair, but in need of defence. I vow to you that
I will continue to assist and advise and to help and protect you in any way that I can. In that spirit, let me
talk to you about risk management and what it means in the current climate.
What a difference a decade makes. In the second of a three part series in the Wall Street Journal in
October, 1986 the Journal reported a study conducted by three researchers who had analyzed 475 studies
and concluded "the results show unequivocally that psychotherapy is effective". One month later, the
American Psychological Association Monitor reported on how "litigaphobia" which was defined as the
unreasonable fear of being sued was having a direct negative impact on patient care, disrupting not only
therapists' lives, but the lives of patients and families as well. In a related article in that same issue, the
statistics demonstrated that psychologists were rarely sued, especially concerning "talking cures".
Indeed, Cohen in the most comprehensive review of malpractice at that time wrote, "mental health
professionals have remained relatively unscathed by claims of malpractice. Suits brought against
psychologists, psychiatrists and others have been relatively few in number, and relatively low dollar
amounts have been paid in damages. It has been observed that the average American psychiatrist is sued
once for every 50-100 years of practice, where as the average neurosurgeon can expect to be sued for
every 2 years of practice."
Thus, a decade ago, the message was "be happy, don't fear lawsuits, and rest assured that what you are
doing was going to be effective." To a professional working today in the mental health field with trauma
and dissociative patients, it must seem as if the world has gone mad. First, managed care has invaded the
privacy and the autonomy of the therapist-patient relationship. As law professor Walter Wadlington has
observed, "the byzantine system through which health care is delivered in the United States has seen
major changes over the last two decades." A scheme in which physicians exercise principal control over
decisions about the use of facilities, choice of treatment and determining what information should be
disseminated to patients, has given way to a system in which competition and cost containment have
become dividing forces, driving forces. Insurers and other large business entities exert great impact over
treatment choices and hospitalization as well as selection of providers.
Second, right in the middle of that golden decade in 1986, on October 30th in fact, the Washington
Supreme Court in a case called "Tyson vs. Tyson" decided at the appellate level, the first repressed
memory case. In its opinion, the court rejected the notion of repressed memory and refused to extend the
statue of limitations to victims of childhood sexual abuse whose memories had been recovered later in
their lives. Although that ruling was overthrown by legislation, and now the law is quite different in the
State of Washington, it began a cascade of cases through the legal system, and an avalanche of bills
through the halls of legislators, and of course the recovered memory has been the most divisive debate in
therapy certainly for this half of the century.
It is I supposed good timing, but an unfortunate thing to report, you must have all seen the story about
the $10.6 million settlement in Chicago. Other cases are now pending. Indeed in the newspaper today
there were more anti-therapy, anti-repressed memory stories. Also, third, we have the shocking
announcement from Texas that the government has now decided to bring criminal charges against
therapists working the MPD and dissociative fields. These are grand jury charges, but they will require
rather expensive, indeed a hugely expensive defence, and it is my hope that the entire profession will
rise to the occasion and resist these agregious charges that are brought against individual therapists, but
which really try to indict the entire field of psychotherapy itself.
Fourth, a development that is less well known, but even more dangerous - the courts are now flirting
with the idea of allowing third party liability suits to be brought against therapists. That means if you
believe your patients, their families will sue you, and if you don't believe your patients, your patients
will sue you. So you are caught in a trap for which there is no escape, and the notion of conflict of
interest which all professions must obey, is simply thrown out the window. I will talk more about that
later.
In this climate, what can conscientious therapists do? Let me quote to you from an article by Ray
London in the International Journal of Clinical and Experimental Hypnosis January 1997, "... the best
risk management program is found when a responsible clinician uses sound professional judgment,
establishes a positive therapeutic alliance, obtains necessary positive consultations, and documents what
is done on a regular basis." That's good advice, but the rest of what he has to say in that paragraph,
which I will quote, is no longer applicable. He said, "...we should not become so fearful of our legal
vulnerabilities that we cease to use our sound judgment and training, nor should we allow the other
professions, or the uninformed to determine the standard of care." Unfortunately other professions and
the uninformed have now stepped in to determine the standard of care. The standard of care being a legal
standard is informed by good medical practice, but by being a legal standard, it can be manipulated by
lawyers and propagandists and other people, and that is what has happened.
Therefore it is necessary for the mental health profession to wrest back control of the standard of care
from the avaricious lawyers that are in the process of changing it. With this in mind, I present to you as
probably the most important kind of risk management, a rather grisly image that I would like you to
keep in your minds as you treat patients. I want you to see with double vision that every patient before
you has sitting next to him or her a lawyer with a yellow pad scribbling furiously at every thing that you
say. Although you might not actually see the lawyer, that lawyer is there, and therefore good risk
management keeps at least one eye on the legal consequences of what it is you are doing. I don't like to
be the bearer of bad news, and I don't think that this development is a fortunate one for either therapist or
patient. But I would be remiss in my duties if I didn't warn you that as far as lawyers are concerned, they
will be in that room with you. If they are not present at that moment, they will have to access to your
records, and to your notes, and to your thoughts, and it is better to think of them as being there and be
cautious than to have to deal with them later in real life.
All of this has nothing to do with science. In fact the science is on the side of the therapist. In the midst
of these horrible stories that we have seen in the paper today in Montreal, in the New York Times, in the
London Times about the Texas and Chicago cases, and so on ... nobody has paid attention to an article in
the London Times reporting on the thirty-seventh study demonstrating the validity of repressed
memories. That thirty-seventh study which the media buries in the back pages, and indeed most
newspapers don't cover at all, should be put into context. Because on the one side, there are thirty-seven
studies showing repressed memory as a real phenomenon. On the other side, there are no studies
showing repressed memory does not exist. And the argument that is sweeping across the country,
through the media and through courts, that repressed memory does not exist, is scientifically unsound. It
is the phrenology of the twentieth century.
In courts of law, it is persuasion and not proof that prevails, and therefore it is not going to be enough to
have the science on your side right now. Ultimately that may be true, but right now it is not. So let's
review some of the arguments that are used in the false memory cases and recovered memory cases, and
then let's talk about how to deal with them preventively, and how to deal with them when the cases
actually arise.
The essence of the false memory argument, the root of all the cases, is the idea that the therapy
relationship is a relatiionship of undue influence. And that the patient has been talked into a set of beliefs
that are untrue. In this regard, the image of the therapy room is identical to the image of the police
interrogation room, or to indoctrination into a highly structured religious cult - that the same kind of
brainwashing procedures that filter into police interrogation tactics are in use by therapists, and therefore
what people report in therapy is what they have been programmed to say by therapists, some of whom
who are just naive, but most of whom are malevolent and are trying to make extra money by filling beds
or filling their schedules with insurance money. This is the essence of the false memory argument.
In particular, it is built upon a couple of sub-arguments. First, that repressed memories do not exist, and
therefore any memory that comes out first in therapy must be a memory that has been implanted in
therapy. So we have now a 100% litmus test for historical accuracy. If a memory comes out in therapy,
it is automatically false. The people who say this also say and write that memory is malleable, and that
memory can never be trusted, and that no memory carries with it an ___ of its truth or falsity. However,
in the same breath they also argue that if a memory comes out in therapy for the first time, that memory
must necessarily be false.
In response there are, as I said, thirty-seven studies against no studies showing that repressed memory,
or what is more appropriately called "traumatic amnesia" does exist. Most of the good lawyers on the
false memory side have recognized that they can't win the argument any longer, that repressed memories
do not exist, and they have backed away from that position. The studies are too overwhelming, and the
false memory arguments in support of the absence of repressed memory are now too fallacious. So now
they have moved to another series of arguments. The most predominant one is that MPD or now DID is
always iatrogenic, that this is not a natural condition to be found in nature, it is only found in the therapy
room, and that therapists create MPD in order to treat MPD. And they treat MPD in order to get money
to treat MPD, and so again, the economic argument is at the base.
To buttress the position that MPD is always iatrogenic, the argument then goes that the DSM-IV which
acknowledges the existence of DID and acts as the standard of care for therapists is in fact a social
convention created by a bunch of goodfellows who flip-flop on major issues such as anti-social
personality, sociopaths and homosexuality, and the history of the DSM shows, according to the
argument, that this is simply an agreed-upon, self-energizing, self-interested document that generally
bears no correlation to what we find in nature.
Well, there is of course some truth to the idea that the DSM IV is a social convention, but I want to
remind you of another social convention. It's called "law". You can no longer decide to not obey the
speeding laws than you can to not obey the MPD or DID section of the DSM IV because surely anybody
who says "I am going to go through the DSM IV and pick and choose what I like and not diagnose any
of the conditions that I don't like" is violating the applicable standard of care. Since you can't, in the
legal system, which is a social convention, decide which laws you choose to obey, and which laws you
choose not to obey, then as long as the DSM is in force, it is the law, and it must be obeyed.
For those people who want to argue against MPD, they have every right to do so and they should
marshall every argument they can but right now they have lost, and in the DSM V or the DSM XII or the
DSM C maybe they will win, but until they win, it is malpractice for them to tell people to ignore any
part of the DSM IV and it is malpractice for you, of course, to ignore it as well.
In addition, and I don't want to turn it into a scientific talk, because there isn't time to do that, I wanted to
focus more on risk management and the arguments that are applicable, the idea that all MPD is
iatrogenic is false as demonstrated in the literature. I think the most cogent and simple argument is the
one in the British Journal of Psychiatry November 1988 by Thomas Fahey, who, after a review of the
literature, shows that while you can get people to simulate being MPD you cannot get people to simulate
the disorder. In the same way I can get people to act as if they are drunk, but I can't get them to measure
intoxication on a meter, and therefore, over a long period time, it will be very difficult for somebody to
simulate being grossly intoxicated. In the same way it would be very difficult, if not impossible, to
simulate over a long period of time, having the actual MPD disorder. Consequently there are arguments
that can handle the notion that MPD is always iatrogenic.
More significantly and with more difficulty, is the argument that it is easy to implant false memories.
Well, of course, it must be true - read any newspaper now about the science in this area. It is easy to
implant false beliefs such as the idea that repressed memory does not exist. But the science does not
show what the lawyers claim in court. The science shows it is very difficult to implant "false memories"
about emotional events for which there is no prior basis in fact, and again, I won't go through the
literature. I have done that in "Memory, Trauma Treatment and the Law" book where you have all the
literature brought together in one place. It is easy of course to talk people into some things, but it is very
difficult to talk them into horrendous things and have them believe it. It is also untrue that these things
are memories. These things, at worst, are beliefs, but they are not memories.
While we are on that point, I have always been amused at the idea of recovered memories. What
memory is not recovered? By definition, a memory means that you have recovered it, and so the whole
notion of recovered memories is another way of fooling the public into a set of false beliefs.
The more serious problem thought with this area, is that people are willing to believe that there are
specialized techniques, in particular, hypnosis, that can facilitate altering the way people think and act.
And the Hollywood version of hypnosis is always fresh in their minds, because that's the only version
that people generally have in their minds. So there has been an attack on hypnosis, but realistically the
attack on repressed memories was an attack on hypnosis, and the failure of the mental health and
medical communities to respond to that attack is what has led to the current repressed memory
controversy. If we go back in history, we find that the first case in the United States to allow
hypnotically refreshed recollection was 1968. From 1968 until 1978, every court in the United States
recognized the right of people who had been hypnotized to testify.
Beginning in 1978, a court said "... well, maybe there are some dangers in hypnosis," and in 1980 the
supreme court in Minnesota vs. Mack ruled that hypnosis is always dangerous, always contaminates,
always causes confabulation, results in undue suggestion, makes the hypnotized subject more self
confident, and indeed so self confident that he or she becomes entirely resistant to cross examination.
Therefore anybody who has been hypnotized is automatically disqualified from testifying. The exception
was made for people who had previously recorded a statement of their factual memory, and so if a
person was a witness, or a victim to a crime, and gave a statement to police before hypnosis, that person
was permitted to get on the stand and tell the story that was told before the hypnosis. Anything
remembered during or after the hypnosis, or any identification after the hypnosis of a possible suspect,
was inadmissible.
Many of us argued that these rules were unfair, they misunderstood the nature of hypnosis, and they
disenfranchised patients who had the right to get mental help, and also exercise their legal rights, and we
urged the medical and mental health communities to file briefs in court to resist these agregious rulings.
But our voice was unheard. It then became clear there was a secondary threat, and the secondary threat
was for therapists who use hypnosis competently and wisely, to have thereby disenfranchised your
patients from testifying in a court of law, could be considered malpractice, and therefore the patient
could turn on you, and say, yes, I know you used hypnosis therapeutically for me, but now I can't sue the
person whom I can now show was the person who abused me.
I will give you a case that makes this point clear. It is a true case from New York. A therapist called me
and asked if the District Attorney could talk with me, and I said yes. The District Attorney called me and
said, "...we have a nine year old girl. When she was about five, she went to her mother and said in five
year old language 'daddy is molesting me'. The mother had a psychotic breakdown and was
institutionalized and remained institutionalized. Who do you think got custody of the child?
It's now four or five years later. The child absolutely refuses to talk about it. The child learns what
happens when you talk about these things. There is medical evidence of abuse, so this is not something
that cannot be corroborated, but of course the medical testimony will tell you there is abuse. It doesn't
tell you who is doing the abuse. A therapist working with the child for over a year using non-suggestive
techniques was unable to get any information from the child. Hypnosis was used, the child was relaxed,
the child told the whole story, and the story is again confirmed by the medical evidence.
Because the hypnosis was used, the child is now forever disqualified. Her testimony is inadmissible in
court, and if she seeks to sue her father, she would be disqualified as a witness in that case also. I don't
think that rule is fair, and I have argued against it, and written against. But then I wrote "Trance on
Trial" to alert you to the fact that that child could then sue her therapist for using hypnosis and if you
have not given the patient an informed consent form that explains that under the law, if we use hypnosis
and you discover any information that can be corroborated, that could lead you to have a legitimate
lawsuit against the third party, you will be disqualified from doing so because hypnosis was used.
If you are using hypnosis, or indeed working with memory at all, you also need another informed
consent form and it is now good clinical practice to let the patient know what the literature does in fact
demonstrate about memory. Memory is malleable and it is not historically accurate necessarily. Nobody
has ever asked the false memory people how they remember their names, of course, or how they
remember which home to go to at the end of the day. So a certain part of memory must work but there is
no guarantee that any particular memory is accurate, no matter how much emotion is invested in a
memory, no matter how much detail is in a memory, no matter how much impact the recovery of that
memory has on an individual, it may still be inaccurate. That's true out of hypnosis, and it's true in
hypnosis, and patient ought to know it.
There are two major kinds of false memory legal case. One is where the patient sues the therapist saying,
'you essentially talked me into believing that I was a certain kind of person ... mpd with satanic abuse
and mind control programming ... and so forth ... and I was really none of those.' The other kind of case
is where the patient goes out into the world, confronts the family, has a break with the family, accuses
the family of incest or sexual abuse, and the family is now disrupted. It is the second kind of case I am
talking about, where there is an outside the therapy-room encounter. Good risk management suggests
that you keep the therapy in the therapy room, and that any activity that the patients wants to take in the
outside world is the patient's decision, not yours. You should not urge confrontation without outside
people, you should make it clear that no charges or any actions should be brought against a third party
without independent corroboration and probably without the advice of a lawyer.
The therapist works with material in the therapy room whether it is historically accurate or not. Once
that material goes outside of the therapy room, it should not be your responsibility, but it is your
responsibility to let the patient know, first that it isn't your responsibility what the patient does outside,
and secondly, that the patient, before doing anything outside, should be aware of the fallability of
memory, and should not act hastily on the fact that a memory has been recovered.
Let's talk about satanic cults, and then mind control programming. The American public is not interested
in hearing about the existence of satanic cults and mind control programming. Do satanic cults exist? Of
course. There is no doubt about that except in the minds of some people, but those people do not include
the FBI because if one reads Ken Lanning's report, which is not an FBI report, but a personal report, the
FBI certainly recognizes the existence of satanic cults. There are many books reporting on satanism, and
satanic cults. The American Family Foundation which is the foremost organization monitoring cult
activity, has issued at least two reports on the existence of satanism and found a variety of different
kinds of satanic practices that occur. The newspapers are filled with stories about satanic rituals and
satanic cults and so forth.
The fact of the reality of satanic cults does not mean the juries are necessarily going to want to hear it.
It's not that they disbelieve it, it's that they choose not to hear it. And so in working with people who
report satanic abuse, you have to be very careful, and here is where good note-taking is extremely
important. There are two schools of thought about note-taking. One is the less I say the less they can pin
on me. That is not the preferential view. Taking notes you have been taught is a way of doing good
therapy. I tell you now it serves another purpose. It serves as a legal defence. For you to accurately
report, in full detail, what happens in therapy sessions may be the best defence you have because of the
ideas of satanism come from the patient, and not from you, your notes should reflect that, and your notes
should reflect that the patient kept going back to the issue of satanism and kept insisting that the issue be
talked about, and your notes should demonstrate that this is not something you have created in the mind
of the patient, but rather something that has been generated by the patient, and the patient's demeanour
has indicated that he or she is not likely to get better, or to hear other kinds of discussion unless the
subject is covered. There is nothing that prohibits you from talking about these things, but make sure
you document that this is not something you are implanting. The kinds of things the patient is reporting
should be recorded in your notes as "the patient said this, the patient said that..." I responded, "is there
anything else you want to say? is there anything else you want to tell me?" or other non-suggestives
forms of open-ended questions so that you cannot be accused of leading or using undue suggestion.
Another comment about satanism. The FBI report and Gail Goodman's independent research have
demonstrated that there is no empirical proof of multi-generational, international conspiracies of satanic
organizations, and we have to assume that that is a fact. But that fact doesn't mean that there isn't
international networks of trafficking in children for pedophiles, and indeed in another one of those little
stories hidden on a back page, there was just an enormous arrest in Italy of a pedophile ring that was
buying Chinese children and shipping them around the world. Those stories are of course ignored by the
media, but what we are now learning is the kind of things we have heard of as ritual abuse in a satanic
context, may actually be a form of international ritual abuse in a pedophile context, and the FBI has
acknowledged the existence of international rings in trafficking in children. We are only starting to learn
about these things. It is not your job to be a detective, but it is your job to be a good chronicler of the
stories your patient tells you, and to have your notes reflect the fact that you are not creating and
implanting suggestions, or influencing these stories.
With mind control programming the issue becomes even more difficult. Is there mind contro
programming? Of course. Indeed many of the false memory people wrote some of the best works on
mind control programming, and did it in the context of religious cults. I myself wrote the definitive
edition of the Central Intelligence Agency and U.S. Army's mind control programs that were secret
programs that extended over a period of twenty-five to thirty years. I read somewhere between 12,000
and 20,000 pages of previously classified secret, top-secret and Eyes Only documents to put that book
together. The book is The Mind Manipulators, currently out of print. We can document that 1000's and
1000's of people including mental patients, juveniles and others were unwitting victims in CIA mind
control efforts. But these programs are largely unknown to the public. The idea of mind control
programming has such an aura of science fiction about it, that people do not like to hear it and therefore
in your note-taking, you must again be very careful to make sure that you don't indicate any influence by
you on the patient by you in the reporting of these kinds of events.
Also, with satanic cult, with memories, with mind control programming, it is easy to lose sight of the
ball. The ball is stabilizing the patient, making the patient able to function in the outside world. All of
these other things are distractions at worst, or things that need to be discussed at best, to be overcome in
order to get to the real business at hand. A lot of the problems that have generated the lawsuits are that
these areas have been found to be so intriguing that the actual treatment goals have been lost sight of and
instead, the idea of investigating multinational trafficking in mind control programming and so forth
have become the centrepiece of the therapy. As seductive as these things are, be careful that you don't
lose sight of the treatment goal, and your notes are the best place for that information to be transcribed
and to be available later.
While we are talking about information and knowledge, there is no substitute for knowing the literature,
and I think what has happened to therapists, and I have said this for many years, but I will continue to
say it, is that you were blindsided by a literature you never heard of and which you are now expected to
master, and your failure to know about that literature has been the basis of many, if not all, of these
lawsuits. I personally have yet to see a lawsuit in this area, and I have seen a lot of them, where the
literature on brainwashing, mind control, undue influence, police interrogation practices, and social
influence, suggestibility ... have not been thrown at therapists.
Generally the only aspect of those literatures that you are exposed to are interviewing techniques and the
difference between closed and open questioning, but there is a rich and incredibly fascinating literature
that you now must be aware of, not only on memory and the available ways in which memory may or
may not be influenced, but on suggestion and suggestibility. On police interrogation practices, and on
mind control and brainwashing. There was a case in New England where a therapist was being sued and
the deposition was a month away. The therapist called in desperation, asking for help and I said, "here's
what you need to do," and gave a reading list to the therapist and names of people in her area who could
train her in these literatures. The deposition occurred, and about an hour or two into the deposition, the
lawyers took a break and went into the men's room, and in the men's room they said, "we're not going to
get anywhere, she knows too much, she is too familiar with the literature." Her husband was in the men's
room and the lawyers didn't know it, and her husband was able to report this back to her. We had trained
her in that month to be available to the literature, and they could not touch her on deposition.
You now have to know that literature as well, and just as I wrote "Trance on Trial" to protect you from
the lawsuits by the patients claiming malpractice, Dan Brown, Cory Hammond and I wrote "Memory,
Trauma Treatment and the Law" to bring together in one place all of the available literature on memory,
brainwashing, police interrogation, and so forth, so you can at least see what that literature looks like.
And the more familiar you become with it, the more you will be doing your own risk management
without realizing it, because mistakes you would otherwise have made you will no longer make. For
example, many of the people who deal in the area of mind control programming, were in the early days
lured into it with the notion that there are certain kinds of programs that exist, certain kinds of
programming, certain people who are doing the programming, and so forth. Those of us who work in the
area of mind control and brainwashing, know that almost everything we hear is wrong. The amount of
disinformation is so overwhelming that we believe nothing until we can independently corroborate it.
Therapists have the opposite kind of training. While you may not believe everything your patient says, it
is good therapeutic practice to give the patient the encouragement that you do believe and a good deal of
what patients report has some basis in fact, although it may be highly exaggerated. In the area of mind
control, people jumped in, believed everything they heard immediately, and paid no attention to the
specialists who could have warned them that most of what people disseminate as brainwashing theories
and ideas, simply are not true. And unless programs, policies, techniques, government programs, have
been corroborated as actually having occurred, there is no reason to believe them. So, for example,
MKULTRA was a program of the CIA which had 149 sub-projects on every avenue of mind and
behaviour control. We know that was a real project, and we know what the sub-projects under it are, but
there are many names that have been circulated of other projects and they cannot be verified, and if they
cannot be verified, and you can't prove them, your belief in them will hurt you in a court of law and also
in doing good therapy.
Be aware that you will be called into question about the literatures on mind control, brainwashing and
particularly, police interrogation because the way police talk people into false confession is the way
these lawsuits are framed that you talked patients into false memories, and there is a direct correlation
between the literature on police interrogation and the allegations against therapists in this area.
Let's talk about informed consent. The notion of informed consent is relatively new in law, although
there were informed consent ideas earlier. It was the Nuremburg Trials that finally generated the
essential notion of informed consent. The law has always felt that an individual is autonomous and
entitled to be the sole owner, possessor, and dealer of his or her mind and body. And anybody who seeks
to tamper either with the mind or the body, must get informed consent. Informed consent should now be
used not only as a way of getting permission from patients, but also as a way of giving information to
them. The risk disclosure cases that are mostly in the medical malpractice area, have held doctors liable
for failing to deliver information about risks have only a 2% likelihood of occurring. So the notion of
informed consent is that the patient is entitled to know everything that she or he needs to know in order
to make an informed choice.
In the informed consent area, the modern false memory argument or attack on therapists argument, is
that all of psychotherapy, at least on the analytical side, is experimental, and therefore everything you
are doing, has not been validated by science. Part of what gives this argument its power is a 1993
decision by the United States Supreme Court Dalbert vs. Merrill-Dow Pharmaceuticals Inc. You may
have heard about it. The facts of the case have no relevance to us at this point, but what the supreme
court said is that if expert testimony is going to be admitted into court, there are four criteria that must be
met:
1. Whether the theory or technique has been tested or can be tested (this is the principle of
verifibility)

2. Whether the theory or technique has been subjected to peer review and/or publication

3. Whether the theory or technique has a known or potential error rate

4. Whether the theory or technique is generally accepted within the relevant scientific community
It is my belief that you can meet all of those criteria but in order to do so, it is necessary to do
longitudinal studies on the effectiveness of various forms of psychotherapy, and it is necessary to show
that the methods and techniques that you use are indeed curative and have low potential error rates. The
more scientific studies you have on your side, the less vulnerable to legal action you will be, and
therefore what is needed at this time is for the profession itself to stand up and convert art into science,
and make sure that the kind of studies that the Supreme Court is going to insist on are available and
delivered, and those studies then have to be disseminated across the profession itself.
While we are talking about the profession itself, it is my view and I am sad to say it, but I don't feel that
it is inaccurate, that the major professional organizations have let you down, and their insurance carriers
have let you down. In this moment of your greatest need, they have issued the greatest silence. If the
literature shows that repressed memory in 37 studies is a concept that can be validated, where are the
professional organizations making that point? Where are they in the court cases? If the APA's and the
AMA's are not going to speak, or even worse, are going to speak with a wishy-washy voice, then the
public is only going to hear one side. This is like the story in law of the guy who was called to grand
jury duty, and he didn't want to do it. The grand jury is a body of citizens that is convened to hear the
prosecution's case and if the prosecutor has enough evidence, the grand jury will indict. It's only the
prosecutor's case that they hear and only for the decision of whether there is enough evidence to indict.
So this man went to the judge and said I don't want to sit as a grand juror, and the judge said, why? The
man said I only can hear out of one ear, and the judge said well you are only going to hear one side of
the case.
The public has only heard one side of the case, and for organizations such as your own that are most
directly threatened, you should have a media campaign. All of you can go home and write letters to your
local newspapers. You are vast in your numbers, and in the regions that you serve, and writing a letter
about the true science of these issues and countering the media barrage from the other side is essential in
this day and age. Not only is it necessary for organizations most directly threatened to take affirmative
action in the outside world presenting your viewpoints, but you should work inside the bigger
organizations to galvanize them to action and to stop their silence from being just one side of the story.
My time is short, there is always so much more to say, but I don't want to be pessimistic about this. In
the short run it seems to me, things look quite despairing. Headline after headline acts as Chinese water
torture -- one drop at a time wears a hole in your head. But in the long run, I have to think of this the
way we think of the Soviet Union under Stalin where what was politically accurate was what was
scientifically accurate, and the biology and the psychiatry in the Soviet Union for 30-40 years wound up
being an adulation of Marxist political theory, and when that finally was thrown off, scientists could get
back to the good work that they necessarily need to do.
I think we are experiencing the same kind of thing in this area right now, and I want to close with a
remark of Arthur Schopenhauer which it seems to me fits the current occasion:
"All truth passes through three stages. First it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is
accepted as being self-evident."
Now that we are in stage two, can stage three be far behind? Thank you.
You have been listening to a presentation by Prof. Alan Scheflin, Professor of Law at Santa Clara
University in California, and this comes in the wake of the US government attempting to bring criminal
charges against psychotherapy, and indeed in effect criminalizing psychotherapy. This is one of the
prime resources available for victims of sexual abuse, sadistic abuse, and mind control.
I can't help but asking what is behind this? Why is the U.S. government trying to criminalize these
resources? What is the motivation for their actions? Is it that they are worried that victims of U.S.
government mind control and organized child pornography and prostitution are healing and talking
about their experiences, exposing the U.S. government's role in these atrocities?
I think it's a question worth asking.
You have been listening to the International Connection on CKLN 88.1 and we are continuing with our
radio series on mind control.


Walter Bowart
The Secret History of Mind Control

See also Walter Bowart
Freedom of Thought Foundation
CKLN 88.1 FM Ryerson Polytechnical University Toronto Ontario
International Connection Mind Control Series
Producer/Interviewer: Wayne Morris
Wayne Morris:
Good morning and welcome to International Connection. We are in show #33 in our series on Mind
Control, and today we are going to hear a presentation, The Secret History of Mind Control, given by
Walter Bowart at the Ritual Trauma Child Abuse and Mind Control Conference in Atlanta in October,
1997. Walter Bowart is an investigative journalist and author of one of the original books about mind
control in the late seventies entitled, Operational Mind Control. And now, Walter Bowart:
Introduction by Sylvia Gillotte:
I guess Walter almost needs no introduction because he was really probably the first person to publicly
write about mind control and its origins and so forth. His book, Operation Mind Control, is available at
his table at the back. Most recently Walter was involved as a consultant in the making of the movie,
Conspiracy Theory, and some of you may have seen him actually interviewed for an HBO special
promoting the movie. It was the first time I ever got to see what Walter looked like so I could recognize
him when he came. He has the Freedom of Thought Foundation, which he will tell you about. He is
going to share his information with you, so welcome Walter.
Walter Bowart:
I would like to thank some people. I was going to save it until the end but I want to get it right up front
since a couple of them are here. I would like to thank Mike Coyle for what he contributed to this. What
you are going to see is a series of out-takes, some are from videos, and a lot of them are still ... it's a very
rough presentation of what's going to be a documentary. I would like to thank Mike Coyle who is retired
from the field. He had the Mindnet Journal which was on the internet, and he did a terrific job of
research. He is finding that a lot of the critical things that we are going to talk about as we get toward the
end of this show, are actually removed from journals ... pages torn out of academic research journals and
things. Somebody doesn't want this information out.
I am going to cover things going back ... Sylvia asked me to do the history of mind control but I'm going
to go farther afield ... probably than most of you had heard about. It is so far beyond any technology you
are talking about, like electromagnetic spectrum stuff ... we are into post-quantum physics here, and now
we are working with physicists.
I would also like to thank Blanche Chavoustie who is here for the long years of friendship and the
documentation and research that she has helped us with and Cheryl Welsh, who I think is not here, who
also contributed boxes and boxes of research, and Doreen Pratt who is hospitalized and not able to
travel ... she is blind, legally blind, and you will see some of her work in this presentation. And I would
like to thank all the members of the Freedom of Thought Foundation for their assistance, and friendship
and guidance over the 20 years that we have been doing this.
The big key to the thing is that only the small secrets need to be kept. You can find just about anything
the government is doing by going into scientific journals and doing research. But the big secrets are kept
by public incredulity and your study and your experience is in an area which is not secret. All this has
been known for a long time, but people don't want to believe it and there is a great deal of denial.
[Slide] With the evolution of man came the evolution of science, and here's an example of an early
treatment by the foremost practitioners of "mental health science". This is an etching from 1745. It
shows a ward in Bethlehem Hospital in London. It was pronounced Bethlem, and it became Bedlam, the
famous synonym for the nuthouse.
[Slide] A patient of Bethlem, William Norris, was confined there for 12 years, bound by chains a foot
long and to an iron rod at the head of his bed. He died in 1815. Another patient at Bethlem, who we do
not have a picture of was James Tilley Matthews. He was incarcerated there for 35 years and escaped
only by death, and it is a very interesting story. In the late 1700's he had gone to France as a spy for the
British Admiralty, posing as an import-export agent. He travelled in the highest circles of French
society. Things went wrong for him when he fell into the hands of Franz Anton Mesmer, the father of
hypnotism. Mesmer used to play parlour games by having aristocrats stand in tubs of water while he
played DC current over their heads, to what purpose we don't know.
[Slide] This may be one of the first perpetrators of mind control ... one of the founders of our country ...
Benjamin Franklin. He was the US ambassador to France at the time, and if you remember, he was the
discoverer of electricity which was DC electricity. He discovered it when he flew a kite on a wire during
an electrical storm, and it was a shocking experience. Franklin may have used that later for the effects
we now know DC current gives. It will induce amnesia easily. Franklin was asked by the French
government to look into the activities of Mesmer and his claims of miraculous cures with electricity.
They hit it off real well, but it's not surprising. They were both the brothers of the same secret society ...
the Masons. Franklin filed a lengthy report favourable to Mesmer to the French government. Another
brother Mason who frequently visited them in Paris was Adam Weishaupt, the founder of the Illuminati.
These coincidences bring a lot of questions to your mind about what were these guys really doing over
there, and what did they find out?
Mesmer happened to be, believe it or not, the godfather of Amadeus Mozart. In fact he raised Mozart,
and of course Mozart was this incredible genius musician and his biography will show you more than
one obvious example of someone who behaves as if he were suffering from Dissociative Identity
Disorder. You can conclude that maybe Mesmer played around to enhance the musical abilities of
Mozart at the cost of other parts of his personality.
[slide] We are back to James Tilley Matthews and after a few years of influence by Franklin and
Mesmer, he beat a path as soon as he could back to England, reported to the Admiralty the French had
developed a devastating instrument of war, an "airloom" which could weave thoughts into a man's mind.
[slide] At the top it says "Illustrations of Madness", that's the name of the book written by John Haslam,
the apothecary (in modern terms, the resident medical officer) to Bethlem Hospital toward the end of
Matthews' stay. In the first decade of the 19th century Haslam wrote this whole volume called
"Illustrations of Madness" just singly on the Matthews case. It was published in 1810. It was the first
book length case study of a single patient in British psychiatric history. According to Roy Porter who
repackaged Haslam's 1810 book "Illustrations of Madness" in 1988 ... that's the only way you are going
to find it. There are rare volumes, you have to pay at least $40 for a used copy.
Because of the book, Matthews' fate became a cause celebre everywhere - in Britain and the United
States. It was used against Bethlem Hospital in general, and Haslam in particular, ironically, when the
institution came under scathing scrutiny by a House of Commons committee investigating madhouses in
1815. A few years before the madhouse era, there were only a few people declared insane, but by the
late 1700's and the early 1800's, there were hundreds of thousands of people now in these madhouses, so-
called. While Matthews is interesting to us for other reasons, he was the cause celebre that created social
reform in the madhouse business.
According to Porter, the significance of his case was way back about two hundred years ago, he was
describing experiences that modern victims of mind control are now describing, even using some of the
same terms. Today Matthews would be diagnosed as having "delusional disorder", and I think delusional
disorder is a misdiagnosis for a whole lot of things. Maybe he would be diagnosed as suffering from
schizophrenia or paranoid schizophrenia, which we now know is an extremely rare disease. When I
wrote "Operation Mind Control" back in 1978, there were only 25 MPD cases diagnosed, now there are
hundreds of thousands. Most of the people I was writing about were called schizophrenic by the
doctors ... and they weren't. Of course, they were D.I.D.
A Dr. George Birkeck of London examined Haslem in those days, and testified before the King's Bench
that after paying James Tilley Matthews six visits at Bethlem and having attempted "by every mode of
examination which he could devise" to discover the real state of his mind, he said Matthews was not
insane. Matthews was talking about sudden death squeezing, lobster cracking. He was admitted on
January 28, 1797 to Bethlem after he had been behaving oddly for quite a while, about a year, and
among his strange behaviour was writing a letter to his benefactor, Lord Liverpool, who was in the
Admiralty and was part of this intelligence scam that he was involved in, "I pronounce your Lordship to
be in every sense of the word a most diabolical traitor after a long life of political and real iniquity
during which your Lordship, by flattering and deceiving and more than anyone contributing to deceive
your King who believing your hypocritical professions, has to be the detriment of many of the country's
friends, loaded you with honours and emollients. You have made yourself a principal in schemes of
treasons founded upon the most extensive intrigues which have not not only long since laid this country
at the feet of its most bitter enemies who have assassinated France, to reap further advantages from those
who by such wickedness might in such general assassinating scandal mount the throne ..." and so forth,
written in the grand prose of that day. And that will get you locked up, even today that would get you
locked up ...
But he is talking about thought-making. Haslam, the doctor who treated him, said, "In this situation he
continued for many years, sometimes an automaton, moved by the agencies of persons hereafter to be
introduced to the notice of the reader." And of course he talked about spies, thugs and assassins who
were putting voices in his head and controlling him. Matthews insisted that in some apartment near
London Wall there is a "gang of villains, profoundly skilled in pneumatic chemistry who assail him by
means of an airloom." Of a variety of tortures he described so colourfully, were "fluid locking, cutting
soul from sense, stone making, thigh talking, kiting involving magnetic impregnations ... sudden death
squeezing, lobster cracking caused by pressure from the 'magnetic atmosphere surrounding the persons
assailed', apoplexy working with a nutmeg grater, lengthening the brain, thought-making while one of
these villains is sucking at the brain of the person assailed to distract his existing sentiments, another of
the gang will force into his mind a train of ideas very different from the real subject of his thoughts in
which is squeezed upon as the desired information by the person sucking." "Laughter-making, poking,
pushing up the quicksilver, bladder filling, tying down, bomb bursting, gas plucking (the extraction of
magnetic fluid from a person assailed), foot curving, lethargy-making, spark exploding, knee nailing,
burning out, eye screwing, sight stopping, roof stringing, vital tearing, fibre ripping brain sayings ..." and
other descriptions of physical and psychological tortures caused by some invisible means which
Matthews put into the high tech terms of his day.
Now, this is very similar to what people are describing today. This is the way he drew a layout of the
way he was assailed and interrogated by these 17th Century assassins and he said that a pneumatic
machine [slide] this is a sketch he made of it ... was used, this was the high technology that was doing all
this. If you are interested in this, try to find the book, you may have to do a search for it. But the EM
targeted victims of today are not sounding much different than that. This guy is pretty colourful and of
course the language is very arcane.
Matthews ... he was the first. It was 200 years ago. He is the first single case ever chronicled in the
psychiatric literature that we know of. This is nothing new. Could it be that Franklin and those other
guys came up with something that they really did use, because that's what Matthews claims. Today we
have the category, and I don't like the term but it is used, "Wavies" -- those are people who are targets of
electromagnetic waves of some kind, or I prefer the term "EM targeted individuals". Some of these
people claim to be alien abductees or government mind control victims, or satanic abused people. There
is nothing in Matthews' description that these groups of people haven't also described experiencing.
Then you have to ask, doing what I did for 20 years, hearing all these stories, you are gathering probably
the largest data base ... using a 27 page questionnaire, I am looking for mind control victims and of
course our questionnaire is on mind control - but it kind of gives you an indication of everything else,
including the alien abduction scenario which is very peculiar, very unusual. We have the largest data
base ... and after you hear this, you say, "could it be that these delusions, if they are delusions - do we as
a species lack such imagination as to keep coming up with the same thing over and over for 200 years?"
Can't we go beyond this? Shouldn't madness be really 'out there'? But something is happening here.
There is a pattern to this, and you hear people who don't know each other, have had no contact with this
thing at all, who never read a book on it, saying the same thing. I sit down with some survivors who
have experienced trauma abuse and trauma based programming and compare notes, it will be the same.
And it runs true.
This is later. This is now the early 19th century [slide] -- we've got the Lavery Electric Phrenometer - it
was the high tech of its day, intended to accurately measure the bumps on your head and so predict the
nature, type and behaviour of individuals who would hold still for it. And it was taken very seriously for
a while, until somebody said, "hey, there's no data base for this, you know?"
[slide] Early 20th century - "Mental Poisoning", it was a popular book written by a psychologist in the
early days when people were hearing voices, mental poisoning. And then we got more scientific - this is
an obsolete version of Colin Ross's book - he made a contribution to the field by doing that research. But
here we go in the 1920's or 30's - everybody was hearing voices, everybody, and all you had to do was
turn on a radio. There was no need for implanted electrodes to control your behaviour.
[slide] Here's a Nazi rally in pre-war Germany. Students of Marshall McLuhan will tell you how radio
created Nazism, the blitzkreig, and mass obedience like nothing before it. As one psychoscientist put it,
"the stentorian voices of the mass media are more universally powerful than the indiscriminate
persuasions of any mind altering drug." Most of the survivors in this room probably don't watch a lot of
television, right? Does anybody want to confess? Okay. (Never owned one? Yes.)
[slide] Now this is the guy - Freedom of Thought Foundation is going to have an award - and all of you
will have a chance to vote on who is going to get the first one - it's very expensive to make those little
statues but nobody will pick it up so we can just peel off the brass plate every year and use the same one.
We have a few candidates. Jolyon West is a candidate, Martin Orne is a candidate, there are two or three
others. But they will all be on the ballot. I have been working on this brain which is about this big, and
it's gold, and it's fried black and it's broken off and it's got two electrodes on it and it sits on kind of like
a beer can - kind of a nice looking thing.
It's called the Mengele Award after Josef Mengele, this guy here. That's Joe, and he was one of the mind
control men, you know, from the ubermentsch ... there's nothing like opening a skull and letting your
bare fingers run through someone's brain or freezing human beings to near the point of death and then
finding out through trial and error that the easiest way to defrost someone is to put them close to another
naked human body. And these are just a few of the brutal experiments, though some of that was valuable
for hypothermia ... all of the records of what Joe Mengele did in Nazi concentration camps, and all of the
records of his research are now on file at the National Archives. We should probably get them all - I
think some of them are still classified. But these are the people he is working on - these are his subjects.
Of course Mengele was fascinated by genetics. I haven't really addressed genetics and most survivors
realize that it is multigenerational, most sons and daughters of Masons realize that is part of the Masonic
belief is that if you program or if you train or educate or whatever the word is, a person over two or three
generations the knowledge begins to be true ...
We are heading that way and these twins were a part of Mengele's studies and he did a number of things.
Twins appear to be telepathic. With NLP you can understand how that works, and our workshops
demonstrate what looks like telepathy by mirroring and matching. If you can sit with somebody and
match their breathing pattern and establish this incredible rapport, you will experience, if you are sitting
there in a state - imagining sitting there on a mountaintop and the wind is blowing or whatever - you will
pick up the wind and you will pick up all the sensory experience that they are having. You might not put
it together in the right way, you might say "I am driving in my convertible and the wind is in my hair" or
something, but twins are known to be - and you can't match any better than twins - they suffered great
atrocities at the hand of Mengele and they are here and they have been interviewed, and that's the last
picture that was taken of Dr. Josef Mengele who was said to have been in Arizona in 1960, there is a
persistent rumour. But of course they say he wasn't, he was in Argentina and he died down there and yet
they are not sure that those are his bones ...
It is also one of the persistent rumours that he was brought over in Project Paperclip. We know he
worked on a farm in Germany for a few years before the end of WWII. There is the question of the
Green programming, and the two proteges he had that were sent to Harvard and all that, and I am sure
you have heard of this and more, but there is no proof of it. I keep harping on this - we won't find any
documentation or proof until we repeal the National Security Act. As you begin to research in this thing,
and I have been smashing my head against the NSA for 20 years. They do whatever they want. Colonel
Fletcher Prouty is a friend of mine. He said "they are over there now", he lives nearby, you can look out
the window. "See the lights are on. They are xeroxing forged documents." The National Archives are
locked up as far as this stuff goes. Anything that is useful, anything that is about mind control, and we'll
get back to that ...
There are so many doctors - I guess Colin Ross is writing a book about it - he's following up on some of
our research that we did 25 years ago. He's gotten the papers of Dr. Estabrooks and Estabrooks knew
Milton Erickson, who I think was a great guy myself, but he did work for the government, and they all
knew each other and Ewen Cameron comes in, it was a Who's Who of everybody who worked in the
psychiatric mental health profession of that particular generation, my father's generation.
Sociologists as well, it's been going on for fifty years. Guys like Robert J. Lifton who is thought of very
highly, worked with Dr. John Mack, the alien guy, the UFO guy. They had a partnership - they worked
in a little company that was funded by the CIA MKULTRA project. And in national mental health, all
the universities were used - you know the story - and Operation Mind Control gives you a big list on all
this stuff. I mean, it's just scratching the surface.
And I hear some of you gasp at some of this stuff. Have you read Lifton's book, "The Nazi Doctors"?
That's a pretty interesting study of how - it takes up the obedience to authority kind of thing, how people
can be made to do things they wouldn't ordinarily do. Lest you gasp repeatedly throughout this
presentation, let me generalize. Virtually every psychologist, psychiatrist, sociologist, cyberneticist, and
so on of that generation previous to mine, were funded either wittingly or unwittingly by the CIA. The
CIA through a number of cutout organizations co-opted the entire mental health profession and put it to
work on mind control. It's a hard thing finding people that aren't part of the game, you know, part of the
bad guys.
A few years after the end of WWII, about the CIA was being founded, and one of their first concerns in
1947 - the Soviets engineered a show trial against Roman Catholic Cardinal Minzente who appeared
before a kangaroo court in a trance and confessed to everything he was accused of which a few years
later he couldn't remember. The CIA looked into this and they said "oh they've got something we don't
have, and we need this". We'd better look into this. It was a fledgling agency in those days. We're
celebrating its 50th anniversary and I got a big kick out of George Bush standing up next to Richard
Helms, who went to jail and was convicted of lying to Congress, he was the Director of the CIA, and
Nixon was singing this man's praises, saying what a great patriot he was. If you are a patriot, you lie to
everybody, you lie to your country. That's how far our morals and ethics have fallen.
[slide] These are some of the things you find on the internet too, you find a lot of very good stuff, very
succinct. And that talks about Harris Isabell in 1955, part of MKULTRA Bluebird, the hospital in
Lexington, Kentucky and things ... of course Nelson Rockefeller wanted to become president one day
and he was standing at the bedside of lady liberty when she gave birth to her bastard child, the freak of
nature, part of the invisible Cold War, information - they christened the baby "Information Warfare",
they called it. The father nicknamed it "Brainwashing".
Brainwash. A previous speaker used the term. It is very non-specific, and the term "mind control" isn't
much better. But "brainwash" was coined by a CIA propaganda specialist, Ed Hunter, and he advised
Allen Dulles who gave a speech at the UN and that's how the term "brainwashing" got started. Dulles'
brother was John Foster Dulles. He was the Secretary of State, and Allen called himself the "Secretary
of State for Unfriendly Governments". He was the Director of the CIA. They talked about the insidious
Fu Manchu Communists in Korea and China who had brainwashed our clean-minded American boys
and made them confess to crimes that they did not commit. According to Dulles the Chinese had a way
of making strong-minded Americans hallucinate that a US Marine wing had flown a mission over North
Korean held territory, dropping germ bombs. Colonel Charles Schwabel here took most of the heat. He
was one of the men who allowed himself to be filmed to the US use of germ weapons. The cries of
"brainwashing" could not drown out the later revelations that the Marine Air wing had indeed dropped
germ bombs on the insidious yellow peoples fighting against the U.S. Later it was revealed that the
secret labs at Edgewood Arsenal had developed a race-specific encephalitis germ which infected only
oriental people.
... Fu Manchu. Which turned out to be nothing more than isolation, deprivation, alienation ... what this
guy was talking about. Very standard stuff. Nothing romantic about it. Just the same old take a person,
put their hand in a vise, close the vise, say "talk". They'll talk at some point. That's what brainwashing
was. It's like our prison and educational systems. Simple things. The Chinese didn't use drugs or
anything sophisticated. But they did get these people to confess readily. So guess what happened? Those
of us who served in the military service - we all were the beneficiaries of that - The Code of Conduct.
You gave your name, rank and serial number and nothing else. But you wait a certain time and then you
can tell them anything because the only thing you have to worry about is tactical information which gets
obsolete very fast.
I talked to Laird Gunderson and guys that were in Vietnam and they really stood up to torture. It's an
interesting thing to see those men come back in the fifties, standing at a strange angle, behaving like
these automatons - it's very interesting - just what isolation, deprivation, alienation can do to somebody.
I suffer from it myself, being a writer, sitting in front of that computer so many hours. I catch myself in
the mirror, staggering around. So the result was The Code of Conduct.
Out of this came the best psychological study ever done - on 3000 men who were POW's in Korea. They
studied them all with a finetooth comb. Most interesting, they had three categories: the guys that
collaborated outright with the enemy, the guys who resisted the enemy to the death, and the guys that
just went along with the enemy. The ones who just went along with the enemy were the same guys that
just went along with our military, they were draftees. The guys that collaborated with the enemy outright
were the people in our own military who were known as gung-ho. The people that resisted the enemy
were the people that resisted our own military and they wanted us all to resist the enemy the same way
that those guys did. They studed the "resisters" and they found there was a spectrum of on one hand,
there were the criminals, and then at the other end, there were the ones who were highly creative. They
began to study more and they saw that criminality is nothing more than misplaced creativity. We have
an actual industry in this country of misplaced creativity.
Slide - Brainwashing in Red China. Edward Hunter, the man who coined the term "brainwashing" wrote
several books about it. Then came the fictional version of that story by Richard Condon, The
Manchurian Candidate. That caught everybody's attention. I knew Richard when he was alive. He was a
PR flack who dropped out. He was sixty, and this was his first novel and it was a big hit. It was the story
of a guy who was captured - Laurence Harvey played the assassin in the movie. He was programmed.
They captured him behind enemy lines, take him up to Manchuria, programmed him, then he came back.
He did assassinate the candidate for president who happened to be a guy he didn't like anyway, it was his
stepfather, so ... the Queen of Diamonds over the phone triggered the assassination. I asked Condon over
the phone - now that he can't defend himself - some guys are writing that Condon knew all about this.
He loved my book back in 1974 - I think he saw a rough draft and he wrote great things about it. He said
he just read Pavlov and Salter, and invented the rest because it was a pretty basic premise. Frank Sinatra
was in the film, he was one of the progrmamed POW's, and he bought a large piece of the film. It's an
interesting movie to watch. When Kennedy was assassinated, he pulled the film out of circulation and it
remained out of circulation for probably 15 years which I thought was interesting. Maybe he knew
something about the assassination of Kennedy that we don't know.
Slide - These are some of the 1940 stills that I found of soldiers under hypnosis being marched around ...
demonstrating before others. In 1978 I went all over the world with these slides. It was shocking to
people. They didn't know you could be made to do something against your will and without your
knowledge. They didn't know you could do mind over matter kinds of things with your body, control
blisters, what have you. I learned from Anthony Robbins when I saw 200 people walk over a bed of
coals as long as this room - they were trying to do the Guinness Book of Records. It was a mesquite fire,
the hottest kind of fire because of the oil which stuck to their feet. 60% got burns, but 40% didn't. Now
you explain that to me ... Andy Wile, the new age healer, he's an MD - he wouldn't walk in it. He knew
what a hot fire was. We know you can control blisters.
Cathy O'Brien tells an interesting story about being burned between her breasts with nitrous oxide while
in a hypnotic state, and having a baphomet appear - a demonic star, goat like figure which was used by
Knights Templar and has a whole history - apparently Noriega was very superstitious and she had a
message, she claims, from high ranking government (George Bush) to give to Noriega. To get his
attention, her handler gave her that cue phrase and that baphomet appears - it would only come out in
that state. Things like that can be done, and have been repeated in laboratory experiments. But in 1940
they weren't doing that. I just threw this in as a filler, because what we are talking about is how to divide
your mind.
If Daddy hasn't already done it - I don't know what this guy said - he said it happens at an early age - it's
got to be emotional - true. But he didn't say it's got to happen before you can speak. Real DID has to
happen before you can talk. So that's a very early age, probably a year, if not before. All of us that have
had - that know a lot of MPD stories - realize that there are personalities and different identities
anchored to various body parts. I have a great video of the most wonderful little lady - she's on our
website - Patty - and I have never seen anybody react like this little lady. She herself is the schoolhouse,
and she is full of children, trying to burst out. It's almost like her eyeballs move sideways, and one
comes out and says "hey, what about me?" - and she can't control this when she gets started. I was trying
to do an interview with her, and I said "let me anchor your executive personality". She is a volunteer for
certain police things, she has her take-charge personalities, very competent. I wanted to anchor her in
that, so I said "let me touch your knee and every time you go off in another personality I will touch your
knee and that's your executive, all right?" So I thought I had anchored it pretty good. Well in the middle
of the interview here is this little kid again, so I touched her knee, and she says "what do you think
you're doing? you're just touching my knee with your finger ... they used a cattle prod". Then she looked
at the camera. My girlfriend was the camera operator, Pat - both of them were Pat - they got along great.
But she had this great big old studio video camera. And she says, "you know, we did that before, but
there was never a woman running the camera ... we were making blue money". I didn't know what blue
money was, which is child porn as it turns out.
Slide - The doctor on the right is B.F.Skinner, and this is his daughter, Debbie Skinner. He was at
Harvard, he was respectable, this was the apex of respectable scientific research. He used to work with
pigeons, chimpanzees - but this is his daughter, Debbie, and the box they said kept Debbie from being
disturbed. She would awaken in her sleep and they would carry on with their regular lifestyle and
Debbie was protected from traffic outside, it was air conditioned and everything - Debbie looks pretty
happy there. Remember that the beginning of - you've heard a lot about Pavlov. And the Russians have
always been big fans of the dark side of our science. They love cybernetics. I'll get to Norbert Weiner in
a little while.
They loved a guy named J.B. Watson who was the founder of behaviorism. He had an illegitimate child,
Little Albert, which I was surprised to learn this was his child, with the nurse who worked for him.
Watson finally got defrocked and he went to work for Madison Avenue. He is the father of mind control
in advertising. The most interesting thing about Watson ... here's this little baby, Albert, crawling along
the floor, and they want to condition Albert and they had a white bunny rabbit and they let the bunny
rabbit out of the cage. As soon as the bunny rabbit would emerge Little Albert would say "whoo woo"
and go running for the bunny rabbit, he would get to a certain proximity of the bunny rabbit and Daddy
would drop this big steel bar, clanging behind Little Albert, make him jump and cry naturally. Watson
did this repeatedly until Little Albert was afraid of anything white, anything that moved that way,
anything furry, all of his life.
This boy, the son of the founder of behaviorism, and Debby Skinner, the daughter of one of the leading
proponents of behaviorism and if you understand behaviorism, you know it works ... it is a science, and
it is uncanny. Both of these young people committed suicide in their twenties. What does that say about
their parents and their heritage, this kind of approach to the study of human psychology, I guess it's
called. So, that's Debby and the box. Skinner was the apex of science, American intellectual
establishment, Harvard University.
Slide - This is the nadir of American intellectual establishment -- this is William Jennings Bryant III in L.
A. - he is the founder and director of the American Institute of Hypnosis. Anybody heard of him? Yeah.
He can run three hypnotic subjects at a time with that panel ... program three people. I was trying to get
an interview with him, he kept dodging me as has Martin Orne - once I got him on the golf course and
almost succeeded but he ran away. Bryant died on the stage in Las Vegas of a heart attack - according to
his widow, within hours of his passing - it was like magic - the signal was sent - the CIA showed up at
his office and at his private home - and removed every scrap of paper from his library. There is reason to
believe that he was, as is alleged, the programmer of perhaps Sirhan Sirhan, the assassin of Robert
Kennedy and maybe one of the programmers of Candy Jones who was the number one pin-up girl
during WWII. Slide - Candy Jones. Betty Grable was number one, and she was number two, something
like that. She wrote her own book called The Control of Candy Jones - some people would now try to
deny that was true ... but indeed it runs true. She was programmed to commit suicide at a certain time by
jumping off a cliff. She married a guy - I think the only reason she married him was because he started
loosening her programming. His name was Long John Neville, he was a talk-show host in New York,
and he was an amateur hypnotist. He started working with her - you can reintegrate just like that (snaps
fingers) unless you are continuously restimulated, the natural tendency is to pull it all together again and
reintegrate. Suddenly she remembered, "gee whiz, I went on all these trips in southeast Asia", she
remembered having her hand in a box with scorpions stinging her and all kinds of other things. Being
basically a pigeon, a courier for the cryptocracy ... ran out of three letter words ... secret government.
Whatever he did shook loose the thing - she didn't jump off the cliff.
Another - somebody should write a book about Marilyn Monroe. She was an abused child. You know
how it goes. Daddy is a pedophile, and Daddy is making movies of abusing the kids in the
neighbourhood, and he ships them through the mail and the postal inspector finds this and says "ah we're
going to arrest these guys" and they give it to some federal branch of law enforcement because it's a
federal crime and then somehow it gets bumped over to the department of defence and the department of
defence guys - who are probably CIA or NSA or whatever - they show up and say "ah you're going to
jail for a 25 years - otherwise you work for us." Then they say "now we'll show you how to program
them." So the whole family ends up and the children of those children end up working for Uncle
Cryptocracy for the rest of their lives. You will hear that story over and over. I hope you hear Brice
Taylor's presentation, that's a story about this. The reason I know she is real is because I met her when
she was with the guy that she can't see anymore ... but I know who it was. A movie star who was a
handler. That was years before I met her again in a mind control context. But I think she has totally
sanitized her book so that she doesn't name any names. But it should. Operation Mind Control names the
names because I got permission to use an earlier version and I changed her name of course so you will
have to put two and two together if you want the real story.
[Slide] It says "How to Hypnotize" - this was in a comic book in the 40's or 50's. It was a big thing.
Everybody was hypnotizing everybody. Little did they know, just accidentally you can really send
somebody on a spin and really have some problems. I hope you don't think I meant to use the word
"spin" deliberately. [Slide] That's Cathy O'Brien. I am sure many of you know her or heard her story. It's
written in the book "Trance Formations in America". She brought the term "Presidential Model" to the
fore, and she presents a kind of National Enquirer version of the MKULTRA story, naming names,
sexual preferences, perversions, dimensions and identifying marks of the genitalia of the high
government officials. That's probably her main defence. She says "okay". Remember Michael Jackson?
They had him drop his drawers because some kids had identified him. Well, she says that about some of
the major presidents and secretaries of defence and what-have-you which I think is a great thing to do.
[Slide] She calls it Monarch mind control there - that's the picture. It gives the name of her shrink there,
and I called up her shrink and said "can you put me in touch with this lady?" and she called me and I
used her pseudonym in the book. She then sent me a blow-up of the picture that she didn't even know
was there, because it was on her passport, she had given it to the reporter, the reporter spilled coffee on
it, but they had a negative of the picture. The reporter blew the picture up and sent it back to her and she
was surprised to find these two images on it. One is the famous butterfly connoting that she was a sexual
slave, programmed, and the rose is the assassin program. We find in Operation Mind Control there is a
pin for evening wear - the butterfly pin or the rose pin. Some on a lower level, they would actually tattoo
the women in certain places. Some of the cattle prods 200,000 volts DC will give you melonin, and give
you a nice little mole. Some of them are burned with moles in a certain shape on the face, and you meet
many survivors that have had every mole taken off their body just for that reason, because they knew
this was identifying. Any of the perpetrators that know the programming can access the person,
depending on what pin they are wearing or what they know about the programming.
The history of mind control is the history of male chauvinist secret organizations at work preying upon
women. But there are some other things. Women are uniquely susceptible to trauma and especially
sexual trauma. The reactions - the difference between men and women in the MPD thing - this mind
control falls into MPD - it's just a naturally occurring phenomena which would probably happen in
nature. If you go up to a victim at car crash, and they are in the state of what we call "shock" - and give
them your card and say "you'll send me a thousand bucks tomorrow, come over here and sit down, are
you okay?" change the subject - probably that person will give you a thousand bucks the next day
because they are in a state of shock. If you give an embedded command in a positive framework - it's
just the way people are - we are all that way. Nothing special about it. So that state is used to traumatize
small children - naturally occurring state - is accessed by the government. My cousin - he's the reason I
got into this - he was traumatized and we didn't know it. He had a drunken father who used to beat him
and his mother up, that wasn't a big deal, it was no big deal - but when he joined the service it showed
up on the tests - there it was. This was a person with a high tendency to dissociate - we can use him. He
was trained as a courier, to carry secret messages locked behind post-hypnotic amnesia blocks. And
today he is still having trouble. He can't sleep very well, so many years later, and he has had 13 years of
therapy, he was in hypnosis. It's pretty well in there. He remembers the atrocities he had to witness at
interrogations, which ended with decapitation and things like that, really hideous stuff, military stuff,
which really hit him.
That little lady was used in ... she was a bomber by the time she was age 3. She was like a set up person
who would hang out with the assassin and distract somebody while the guy bumped him. Just a little
innocent kid coming into a place like this. Oh a little package, you know. Puts it down, later the place
blows up, that kind of thing. She has pretty much recovered, doing really well, I am happy to say.
The best literature on mind control and survivors is self-published literature. The publishing companies
won't touch this stuff any more. The only reason I got Operation Mind Control published in 1978 was
that my agent was an agent. He belonged to Naval Intelligence. He is now one of the biggest agents in
New York, and he paid me a whopping advance because they wanted to control it, and then, man they
printed a million copies and ate it, and paid me full royalties and you never found it again. In two weeks
it was gone. Now they are paying $650 a copy - if you've got a used copy of Operation Mind Control,
sell it. Of course now you can get one for free by becoming a member of of the Freedom of Thought
Foundation.
[slide] This was one of the early things of the male chauvinist society - it was called The Battle for
Men's Minds, a book by William Sargent. Here is Dr. Sidney Gottlieb of the CIA. He was the guy who
gave 147 different drugs to people. John Marks in The Search for the Manchurian Candidate or the
Church Committee Reports cover him pretty well. He is a scientist, a doctor. And of course we know
about Timothy Leary who is a psychologist, he is the producer of the flower generation, the psychedelic
sixties and the slogan "turn on, tune in, drop out" - he worked with Henry Luce and the CIA to turn on
the generation known as the Baby Boomers. When I asked Leary if he was witting or unwitting when he
got his LSD from the CIA, he said, "Who you would work for - the Yankees or the Dodgers? You want
me to work for the KGB?"
[slide] This is a blank slide in memory of Dr. Frank Olson who flew, jumped, or otherwise exited from
the 16th floor of the Pennsylvania Hotel in New York City back in the 1950's, and Olson's family was
paid $750,000 wrongful death - the federal courts claim act keeps you from suing the government for
wrongful death - but it turned out, after the autopsy - the family exhumed the body of Olson - his skull
was fractured before he was thrown out the window. He was killed before he was thrown out the
window. They probably just laced him with LSD. He was an Edgewood Arsenal chemist and he had
qualms about dosing people agains their will and without their knowledge at Edgewood. So they killed
him and threw him out the window and made it look like a suicide. Now the family is suing under a
different law, and maybe they will get some real money out of this - the culprits should be prosecuted,
but we can't prosecute anybody until we - what are we going to do? Repeal the National Security Act
and then give everybody amnesty? Man, there's a lot of criminals, a lot of murderers.
[slide] This is Harold Blauer I used to make a joke, on his ass before the government put him there
forever. He was a tennis pro. He was given an overdose of a mescaline derivative by the CIA. Every
minute of his death is chronicled in cold blood descriptions in their classified files. You can find it
verbatim in Operation Mind Control. Like Olson's family Blauer's family received a quarter of a million
dollars from Uncle Sam, but they are suing again because he was a private citizen. He didn't sign up.
Now you get the idea right? If you sign up for the government, you're going to give your life for the
country. The National Security Act suspends all your civil rights, you get it? After you've given your life
for the country, since they didn't need you to survive, they're going to use anything you've got - your
body parts, your mind, your soul, anything. That's the way the game is played. Most of the victims of
mind control are government related. May 2nd or 3rd generation. Our files contain very detailed
debriefings, drawings, sketches of high ranking CIA officials' daughters. Now why would they do this to
this person who is now a very competent secretary, and who has been harassed and tortured since she
was a small child by some incredible technology that is more advanced ... since she is not one of the
DID kind. This is really incredible.
But of course Walter Reed is a place where they program people and ... this story. I just got this recently
from Blanche I think, "Sing a Song to Jenny", it's the true account of a secret US raid into China. In
1978 I am in San Francisco doing a talk show for KPIX TV - normally they bus in women's clubs and
there I was, the bus broke down, and I am left with nothing but the phone lines which was fortuitous
because a Commander in the Navy called and said, "I was on the Black Pajama team working behind ...
and they sent us to Walter Reed and now we all have cardboard memories." And this is the story of one
guy, not the same guy I think that I talked to, but this is probably the same story of mind control soldiers
operating behind enemy lines.
The CIA documents ... to create an involuntary assassin. That was in the seventies, and that was
published. That's one of the English editions of Operation Mind Control. That one is worth $650 on the
used book market. This is The Mind Manipulators by Alan Scheflin, it came out a year later. Journey
Into Madness, Gordon Thomas ... he is Irish and to me, kind of thinks like an Irishman, 'why mess up a
good story with the truth?' so he takes wild flights of probably untruth ... but he does cover Ewen
Cameron's experiments in Canada very well, and it's good for that. Of course, as a result of Ewen
Cameron's experiments, they paid off pretty heavy to the families up there. These people weren't in our
government, and Cameron was working under the payroll of the CIA for a long time, doing the
experiments for the CIA. Cameron was at the same time the President of the American Psychiatric
Association and he was the head shrink for the Nuremburg Trial. You can see the connection with
psychiatry ... that's probably why psychiatry stopped dead in the water, probably why it doesn't work,
what they are trying to do. And of course, it was useless. We just spent fifty years and how many
millions and billions of dollars, and we didn't come up with anything.
David Ferrie was a hypnotist, he was a pilot for the CIA and he was probably the guy who was an on the
scene handler for Lee Harvey Oswald, who was probably just a patsy. He said he was a patsy. They ran
a CSE on his statement and it appeared to be true, and believe it or not, stress free. So he looks like just a
patsy. But David Ferrie had false eyebrows, a wig ... strange dude.
This is another victim of mind control, he was programmed. He was a White Russian. George de
Mohrenschildt is his name and he was a friend of Lee Harvey Oswald and Marina Oswald. A friend of
mine, Eddie Epstein, was interviewing him for Time Magazine and they took a break for lunch and
Oswald got a phone call, and simply said "I understand". Then he took a gun and killed himself. Bang.
Just like the Manchurian Candidate. His family believes that's what happened.
This is Luis Enjarocasetio (sp) an attempted assassin of Ferdinand Marcos in the Phillipines. He was
arrested by the Phillipine National Bureau of Investigation, the equivalent of the FBI. They called in,
unlike in the USA where nobody believes this could happen, those guys called in a hypnotist and began
to deprogram this guy. They found four different identities when he was in custody. He had 40 hypnotic
sessions from April 3 to June 25, 1967. He displayed four distinct personalities. He was put into a trance
and given an empty pistol. In the first personality he would follow whoever was talking with the pistol,
pulling the trigger over and over. In the second personality he would aim only at the picture of Marcos
and pull the trigger over and over. In the third personality he would end up falling off the table to the
floor and remain motionless. The report said, in the last state, a "pathetic sight takes place - the subject
turns the pistol to his own temple and squeezes the trigger as many times as his name is repeated."
Notice his clothes. He's got this little sweater kind of thing, notice his haircut, general look. When
Sirhan was arrested, the same kind of thing. The interesting thing is that they both had diaries, they both
left underlinings. They both repeated things and kind of chanted their program. They both predicted
before the crime that they were going to do this.
Sirhan is arrowed. The other guy is Spanish, some kind of Hispanic background. They look enough alike
to be brothers. Castile believed that a guy that sounds like Allen Dulles was his father. You find this in
the programming. These sadistic jokes are played. Sirhan as you know was programmed to kill Robert
Kennedy, and did apparently, shot at him, was in the room anyway. When in custody, he was visited by
Dr. Bernard Diamond, shown here, who was hired by the defence, and Diamond is an expert in hypnosis
and defence. He thought immediately that Sirhan had been programmed by the way he responded to
hypnotic command. At one point he put him in deep trance, and he found that he couldn't speak, but he
could write answers. Here's the way it went. He showed him a page of his diary and asked, "is this crazy
writing?" "Yes, Yes, Yes," Sirhan wrote. "Are you crazy?" Diamond asked. "No, No, No," Sirhan wrote.
"Well, why are you writing crazy?" Diamond asked. "Practice, Practice, Practice," Sirhan wrote.
"Practice for what?" Diamond asked. "Mind control, Mind control, Mind control," is what Sirhan wrote.
Here's a guy who did a lot of our work, funded by the CIA through the National Institute of Mental
Health. The CIA gave the money to NIMH who gave the money to Harvard University who gave the
money to Jose Delgado, famous neurologist who back in the 50's and 60's did a lot of amazing work. He
went before Congress I think in 1962 or 1963, and it's in the Congressional Record, and he called for a
"Psychocivilized Society" in which everybody would have an electrode implanted in their brain and it
would be for the benefit of us all. I know a little kid, he's 15 years old, he's a cyberpunk, and he can't
wait to have that because he wants to know the baseball scores. He says "why do I have to remember all
this?"
There's a stimoceiver transmitter and receiver in the brain of the bull at the right place and the bull didn't
even really attack. That's a puny bull if you ask me, and Delgado looks like a real chicken and he's
backing up. He has the cape but he doesn't have the sword and he has the radio transmitter and then the
bull gets to a certain point and he pushes a button, and the thing goes into reverse. I mean it was
unbelievable, and you can get that. I have seen it even on educational television shows ... A&E did this,
it was called "The Bad Trip to Edgewood." That's the headquarters at Edgewood Arsenal, Fort Detrick,
Maryland. They started out with monkeys of course. They tried everything ... they started out with gas
and injections and that led to human experimentation.
See that mouse and the cat ... that's a famous thing from the sixties. Here's a cat on LSD. This cat is
afraid of these mice, and it keeps leaping away. It's unbelievable to see that, and it's a famous
experiment. They used a lot of LSD. Of course they cornered the market. I think they went to Sandoz
Labs and bought every existing dose of LSD.
This guy, Bill Jordan, is a medical "volunteer" and he was a Lt-Colonel --- he was probably the highest
ranking volunteer. They thought they were going to get gas or something, tear gas -- they gave him 100x
the normal dose of LSD and these guys now 40 years later are still walking around having flashbacks,
epileptic seizures. They gave huge doses -- 7000 men were given LSD in these huge doses between
1955 and 1975.
This guy is Col. James Ketchum who was the Army psychiatrist who ran it. Ketchum revealed to Bill
Kurtis, who was the A&E anchorman, that they had tested BZ which puts the test subject into a 3 day
stupor and is followed by memory loss. They were interested in anything to induce amnesia. One of the
test subjects did try to sue the government and he got to the Supreme Court and was turned down
because of the Federal Torts Claims Act. But the dissenting opinion of the judges compared the
Edgewood experiments to the Nazi experiments of WWII. This is on record. Col. Ketchum didn't take it
all that seriously. He said "Most of the volunteers thought of it as an interesting adventure. Many
volunteered to do it again." While these injections were going on, other things were being done.
In Lexington, Kentucky (Lexington is a federal "drug rehabilitation" - I don't think there is such a thing
as rehabilitation in the prison system these days - there is no concept of it. But in those days they still
called it a drug rehabilitation project). They would give them rewards of heroin if they would take LSD
and other things. Here's a guy in such a stupor, he can't sit down. This guy starts out early on playing
solitaire, pretty soon the cards are all over the table, and he is just a mess. This guy I think is counting
spiders on the wall that he thinks are there. This guy is breathing some gas that they measure and then
they filled the whole room with BZ or psychotoxic gas then they would put the guy in this suit and see if
the suit protected him. Of course they started out with animals. This fellow says it made him violent. It
changed his personality and he hasn't had a relationship with his family for 30 years because of it.
Of course that's what they wanted to do. BZ and some of these other drugs were known to produce a
violent reaction. One of the things they experimented with was PCP, angel dust, which is now "an
underground recreational illegal drug". This is a group of soldiers walking through a cloud of BZ and it
brings to mind some eerie scenes from a movie I would recommend that you rent from the video store,
called "Jacob's Ladder". This is a movie that is really about the Buddhist afterlife, the guy is already
dead. He was part of the Army BZ experiments and he is reliving his life which did take place in
Vietnam. It looks very much like this, they reproduced in the movie the whole feeling of this kind of
monstrous experimentation.
Of course, here is Richard Helms, and here he is lying to the President's Commission on the
assassination of President Kennedy which was one of his first big lies that was documented. Then he
went on to lie to Congress and that's when he got sentenced to some time for that. Here's something from
Defence Intelligence Agency Report Task #T72-01-14: "Parapsychology can be harnessed to create
conditions where one can alter and manipulate the minds of others." This is from Hans Ulrich Dresch,
he's a PhD who works in an alcohol rehabilitation program today, and he was a victim of mind control.
He was actually an American citizen, but he was born over there of military parents and raised there. He
was used in some kind of mind control experiments. Since he is a psychologist, he talks about all those
things - MPD, hypnosis, drugs, and all the other stuff. This can be found on the internet and it's probably
40-50 pages long.
This is Alan Frey's early research when he was with G.E. and it's the "Human Auditory System
Response to Elctromagnetic Energy" - in other words, "we are going to put voices in your head" by
remote control from a distance. And that was in the 60's, and Ross Adey is another guy who did the
research - he was at University of California, Riverside, and he did a lot of research on modulating
microwaves so you would hear a voice from a distance. There's a guy in New Mexico who is in
Operation Mind Control who will sell you a microwave you can keep in a paper bag. It's about the size
of a radar gun. You can buy them now over the counter. Q. is that kind of mind control technology used
to discredit the individual, or is it actually used for programming. I would say both. I would say the
number one thing is programming because if you take all the technology - drugs, hypnosis - all this
electronic stuff - if you take it away the human mind is still the human mind and it works the same way.
Basically you can explain that by understanding the subconscious. A lot of it happens over a long period
of time. I don't know about 20 years, but I know about 10 years.
Here's another one. Spontaneous regression. This was way before the New Age thing of regression, past
life regression. The military and the government were researching this thing. This guy Schneck - this
was from State University of New York College of Medicine - a CIA project funded it - and they knew
damn well what a powerful regression was. Even if it is just a metaphor.
The father of all this stuff - the greatest mind about hypnosis - and a guy who also worked for the
government - was Milton Erickson. When I interviewed him he talked very slowly - you could go into
trance just listening to him in a warm room. But I liked him a lot, and of course he is the main model for
what is now known as neurolinguistic programming. He had polio so he could not interact with people
and he watched how they communicated, and out of that came this beautiful science which is used in
computers. "The use of hypnosis in intelligence and related military situations" by Seymour Fischer (sp)
1958 - a declassified CIA document. "The use of hypnosis in warfare" by Alec McQuart, unclassified,
it's in the open literature. "Experimenting with the possible antisocial uses of hypnosis" by Milton
Erickson. He said there is no problem to it, all you have to do basically is to manipulate context and get
an individual to do something against their will and without their knowledge. It was done in a laboratory
in a government study where a soldier was made to attack his commanding officer. All they had to say
was "this is WWII - this guy is a Japanese guy - it is kill or be killed". They didn't know he had a knife
in his boot but luckily they had two armed guards standing there.
This is "Assassination in Hypnosis: political influence" by Joseph Berndt in 1968, after the Kennedy
assassination. "Rewriting the Soul" by Ian Hacking, Canadian. He's a sociologist so parts of it aren't
correct but it's really interesting to read this different point of view, and he tells some anecdotes about
Colin Ross that are pretty good. Elaine Pagel's a friend of mine who did the Nag Hammadi texts and
anybody who has had satanic ritual abuse should probably read this book and understand the origin of
satan and understand how deeply rooted it is in our society, in Judeao Christian Aristotelian philosphy.
This is Mikey's paper, "Mind War". You know Mikey? Yeah, Michael Aquino. This is his very own
handwriting. It is the headquarters of the Imperial Storm Trooper Force Office of the Chief of Staff,
Mind War Center, Hub 4, and it's the final version of an article going to the military review,
"Parameters", which is a war course journal psyops community - the head of which is near my home
town in Arizona. He was just then a Major, and he talks about John Alexander's military review and
psyops and stuff, and what gave me the creeps is #11 - he cites Operation Mind Control as a source.
That gave me a chill. Here he is when he was reviewed for a possible adverse - they are going to throw
him out of the Army for molesting children at the Presidio - and of course they couldn't prove he did it,
but they couldn't prove he didn't do it - they did a weird thing which they can only do in military law.
They didn't acquit him, but they didn't convict him. They just said "we are going to gather more
evidence" and of course they are still gathering evidence.
So here he is, a satanist, and high ranking guy - he retired from the military. People raised a stink about
it, but the Pentagon says no problem, there's a guy buried in Arlington from the Civil War who is a
satanist. This is freedom of religion.
And of course, cybernetics, Norbert Weiner, "Control and Communication in the animal and the
machine". The father of cyberpunk. And of course the Russians were of course very good at this and
they know what obedience to authority means. Let me tell you a little bit about this guy. He's a member
of the KGB, head guy, Vladimir Zukov, a KGB parapsychologist. He's an adept at telepathic hypnosis, a
psychic who was especially trained to use a variety of instruments to affect other people's minds at a
distance, if you can believe it.
This is part of the history. We are coming to the end. The only success story of that kind of psychotronic
warfare is this chess match between Karpov and Korchnoy and Karpov was the darling 27 year old chess
champion and Korchnoy was the former chess champion that had defected to the West, so they wanted
to make sure Korchnoy lost. Korchnoy, after the thing was over, says he tried to get this guy removed
and he complained and complained. He said "he forced me to make bluffs I didn't want to make, he
forced me not to play strong. It was Zukov and the powers of mind control that led to my loss." And it
was a prestigious international victory for Karpov and Soviety parapsychology.
Here's a photo of Dr. Karl Nakaliev at work in a laboratory on a crystal ball - it's a psychotronic device
which allegedly focused the mind in what is called biocommunication. The Soviets took it seriously and
developed it to a reliable degree and of course our controlled remote viewing is the same kind of thing
where we put something that has been generalized and non-specific and unscientific and we disciplined
it.
Here are psychotronic devices - the mind concentrates and spins that little wheel. It's from a movie and
it's available from A&E. Uri Geller did that for the Stanford Research Institute and Ingo Swann. These
are psychotronic devices - they are really interesting. They are not a dental tool, not a sculpture tool, not
a kitchen tool - they are used like magic wands to focus energy and direct the mind. This guy is the
leading Soviet parapsychologist - when he would do stuff like that, they were measuring his brainwaves
so they could duplicate his results. Now we did similar things. One of the most interesting studies the
USA did was to measure the brainwaves of people with Multiple Personalities, put them into different
personalities, and measure their brainwaves. Each personality had a different brainwave pattern. They
then recorded these patterns and sent them to another shrink on the west coast. They then sent the
subject to that shrink and told the shrink to play these signals back. I don't know if they played them
auditorally -- I think so. They stimulated the personalities by playing back the brain wave signals.
This is a psychotronic factory where they are making psychotronic weapons in the Soviet Union and the
parabolic mirror looks like ... you can become your own CNN. You know they were seriously doing this
- it's not just those of you who have experienced some of this stuff. But these are for you who want to
tinker and build your own - take a look at this one. Non lethal weapons, being sold, being promoted in
this country for law enforcement and it is the most dangerous step we can take. That kind of
psychotronic weaponry or any of the other nonlethal weaponry, especially since the military people and
the law enforcement people will be the first targets of it. The term nonlethal is a misnomer because they
are lethal.
You know this guy - Dr. Becker. Most of the stuff he talks about is obsolete but it's a must read if you
are a serious student of this stuff. Here's a picture of the transponder. Everyone is claiming about having
implants. Most of the people who claim they have them are claiming they are from extraterrestrial
sources. These are terrestrial implants.
This is a 1960's technology. They have different sizes - small, medium, large. They have some for goats,
pigs, dogs. You can buy them from your veterinary store. This is a small one. That's the tip of a guy's
finger. That is the electronic technology.
This is all obsolete. Nanotechnology is where it's at. Talk about implants - they don't have to do that
stuff. If you want to transplant a transponder in somebody it's going to be the size of a molecule and it's
going to be run on an energy source that will last more than a human's lifetime. You will be dead, your
body will be decayed and that thing will still be sending off the signals. Nanotechnology is where it
presently is at ...
They were talking about putting them in teenagers with the idea of tracking them.
This is Dr. Gwen Deans' comparison between thought reform on the left which is Lifton stuff, ritualized
abuse in the middle, and abduction on the right. This is one of her earlier things. There is a bigger one
I've got in the slides and we are going skip it ... but this gives you the essence of the thing. First, trivial
demands are enforced - the middle one says "must learn cult rules". What you are seeing in the
phenomena, the experiences of these individuals who talk about government mind control, or thought
reform, or ritualized abuse or abductions is the same thing. Hundreds of reports.
Back to the shrinks. Sidney - Francis Crick, Nobel Prize. Says he found the human soul - the guy's an
idiot. But this is the problem with our science. This guy won the Nobel Prize, discovered DNA, but he
has no right to talk about the human soul. It's a theological question.
Microwave harassment and mind control experimentation by Julianne McKinney. She was involved in
the harassment program which is now defunct. Cheryl Welsh and other folks ... that's Ed Light who runs
the Mind Control Forum. These people were on CNN, got a hatchet job when they came out, and of
course they didn't find any signals ... they came out with all this instrumentation to measure the
environment and they found all kinds of pollution in the environment but this is the normal pollution,
and of course it had nothing to do with what they were saying. The scientist said we could find nothing -
no reason why these people should be complaining - like Ed is complaining here of the sounds, the hurt,
the pain, perhaps voices in his head. Try to tell somebody you are hearing voices in your head. Every
time you are making love to your husband there's the voice telling you how to do it, how you are doing it
wrong - at the most intimate times in your life there's a voice talking to you. When you are sleeping
there are voices talking to you, lights shining at you, 24 hrs a day, year after year. You go to a doctor. He
looks it up in his manual - and he says "delusional" or "you're a paranoid schizophrenic". There are only
four basic things - hearing voices is only in there four times basically. And then they give you a drug and
suppress the symptoms. What does that do?
You know about the radiation experiments. A lot of the mind control victims were used in the radiation
experiments. Many of them have Graves disease, lost their thyroids and because mind control victims
don't talk or they can be stopped from talking. So they were used in that. At the end of the President's
thing on radiation, "Trance on Trial" Alan Scheflin's book - they don't believe in hypnosis, you can't be
made to do something against your will in the courts of law. They just don't recognize anybody who has
ever had hypnosis. They are discredited as witnesses. It's like a bunch of simpletons.
Multiple personality disorder and criminal responsibility. Very important document written by a UCLA
law professor - Ellen Saks. You need that. You need to read that. It's a long thing.
Q. DSM IV has a new options book and there is a category called "Spiritual Problems" - it's the first
time that the DSM committee acknowledged that there is something called a spiritual problem. They are
defining it in four sentences unfortunately. The proposal was 11 pages. It was a miracle that they
accepted it. What they are saying is when there are actual spiritual experiences that are going on right
now and are not in alignment with our previous religious experience. I would advise somebody if they
are going to go see somebody in the medical field, to refer to that.
This is Robert Moodie and his brother, they look like twins. This man is on death row right now. I am
his only link to the outside world. He is diagnosed MPD, DID. I worked with him before he could even
get that diagnosis because the aliens' voices in his mind told him to do "choo-choo train" on the test so
he would do true, true, false - true, true, false - choo-choo train - and they couldn't get any proof.
Psychiatrist got up in court and said he is malingering. But a couple of them said you'd better rule out
DID, this, that and the other thing. The judge just said "I'm not going to rule it out." They put him in the
nut house for six months and they couldn't do anything with him. He came back and he still wasn't
competent to stand trial. He was insane at the time of the crime. And the whole thing about DID and the
law has to be re-examined and re-structured.
Here's a guy - I began to work with him. There's Mary, there's Bob. See if you can see some of the
changes in him. You can do it in the film, you can really see it. That's the killer personality. His name
was XE. He was programmed in a Marine Corps - killed two women in Arizona. He is sentenced to die
after his four appeals are exhausted. Anybody want to write to him ... This is Dr. Joyce Vesper who
thanks to Colin Ross, we finally found a doctor in Arizona - she is the Arizona Director of the ISSD and
she came forward, gave him a five hours of tests, looked at 200 hours of sample videotapes we had taken
of this guy. He turned into a little kid. When the Miranda warnings were read to Moodie, he was a nine
year old, he didn't know his name. The reason they caught him is he turned himself in to this Sheriff's
department saying "run my fingerprints, I don't know who I am". He had a picture of a little girl in his
pocket. That was his daughter. He didn't know who she was. He was in amnestic fugue. It's not justice -
it's got to change. You can get hit on the head, something else can happen to you, and suddenly you are
on death row. It's not the way you treat people.
This is a novel by Michael Youssef, "The Voice" and it's about the voice of satan in a christian preacher
of some kind.
Dr. Sheldon Deal looked at - Patrick Flanagan created a thing called the neurophone which proves that
somebody can be deaf, their cochleas taken out and they can still hear with this thing. Nick Begitch will
tell you more about this thing. There are some incredible therapeutic effects with this thing - that's what
Dr. Deal did a study - hearing people can hear a conscious sound and then this thing kind of plays it to
your bones, I guess, to the other part of your ear. Begitch will explain it to you. I have known this guy
for 30 years. He's a naturopath, holistic healing, used to Mr. Arizona and stuff. Wonderful guy, serious
researcher.
Voices in the head - a famous Philip K. Dick novel about VALIS - Vast Active Living System. This is
Jack Sarfatiks' physics group talking about VALIS and conscious computer spacecraft from the future,
time travel, and all that kind of thing, which is coming up fairly prominently in quantum physics. Of
course there is something now called post-quantum physics and there are sub-atomic particles called
beables - and you had better familiarize yourself with that.
In the 1950's it began - the new science - and the University of Arizona was going to be the first
university in America with a chair for this new science, called Cognitive Science, the study of
consciousness. This year in April there's a conference discussing this - psychologists, psychiatrists,
neurologists, linguists, cyberneticists, theologists, philosophers - all getting together to talk on that topic.
Heavy on the computer thing, artificial intelligence is very important. But it all started in the fifties.
J.B. Ryan, Duke University, 1950's - CIA project in extrasensory perception. They are the guys who
used the Zener cards that you saw in Ghostbusters. Very important studies. Denied by the CIA. They
said "we spent so much money and nothing happened". Don't believe it.
Now they admit - remote viewers even - that's pretty far out. Astral projections, out of body experiences
- now it's called controlled remote viewing. I like this book a lot - Dave Morehouse - seems like an
honest guy - talking about his experience in the remote viewing thing. The CIA finally admitted it, but
here it is in 1975 in a press release telling you all about it. So it's been known that far back - but 1996
they admitted to it.
Here's John Mack, thanks to Blanche, a little thing about John Mack at Harvard, talking about UFO's -
working with Lifton. And there's John Shirley, talking about hypnosis. There was a serious study about
alien aspects done at MIT and one of the papers in here talks about - they found out that the so-called
abductee community was highly dissociative. So the same thing you find in ritual abuse, you find in
mind control, you find in alien abductees. And of course, for the first time now, people are beginning to
say "yeah I do remember there was a government guy standing around with those little grey things". And
of course how many survivors have been asked not to talk about their "alien experiences"? About three
years ago I asked that question, and just about everyone I could identify as a survivor raised their hand.
They have been told not to talk about it, because it discredits their credibility. They are already telling
pretty fantastic tales, you know. There is nobody talking about the Lori Lingenfelter story, or even Cathy
O'Brien doesn't talk a lot about her NASA training - but Lingenfelter says that she was trained to be a
hostage "witness" - a specially hypnotically trained witness on some kind of an alien ship in a swap deal
you know. Incredible stories, but it's worth checking out.
Here is Dr. Dean who did the comparison accounts with ritual maltreatments and ritual abduction, and
this is the appendix E in Operation Mind Control. It is just amazing to me to find everybody talking
about the same thing in slightly different variations.
Of course on the fiftieth anniversary of the so-called Roswell thing comes out and says yeah I was the
guy who placed all the high technology into the R&D stream of the defence developers. He talks about
the skin of the craft, the propulsion system, night vision goggles. One thing he doesn't talk about and
admits they were there - mind control devices on the ship allegedly, but he doesn't talk about it. His
movement away from that, his sudden avoidance of that subject, is to me what gives credibility to this
account. You wouldn't talk about it if you were using it the way it apparently was being used. They had
a headband that blew the graph, and stuff, he says.
If you read the report from Iron Mountain, you realize how to motivate an economy without war can be
a very difficult problem, so there is the Green movement, the ecology movement. Space exploratiion - a
bottomless pit. You can sink a lot of money into that but the best motivator is to pose an outside threat of
alien invasion. How are they doing? Only 55% don't believe in UFO's in a CNN poll in 1997. Are there
visitors from space? 60% don't believe it. They are not doing so well in planting that idea.
This is an implant ... I don't know if you can see it ... it comes from UFO community. It is quite a bit
different than the one we showed before, that is actually in production.
You have to read about physics so you might as well start with Tim Allen, it's a pretty good book on
basic quantum physics.
Michael Persinger, a neuroscientist in Laurentian University in Sudbury, Ontario is blindfolding people
and putting an automobile with selanoids and playing magnetic waves over their temporal lobes, and
80% of the women he claims have temporal lobe epileptic experiences automatically, frequently from
time to time throughout their lives. This guy was funded by the NSA ... (Q. he is funded by the US
Navy ...). Well you know what he's doing? He is saying that UFO's are electrical phenomena from
earthquakes and he's demonstrating, beyond question, that your consciousness can be altered and
controlled at a distance, without breaking your skin. It is very transparent though, in the research papers
and in his conclusions, his conclusions don't match his arguments. It is pretty obvious. But what he is
demonstrating is that a person can be influenced by magnetic waves from a distance, remotely. That's
amazing, that he is standing out there doing that ... I don't believe a word the guy says.
The physics of immortality - a must read - Frank Tepler. He says you can find God in the codes and stuff
like that. And this is a wonderful thing - hard to find - out of print - Elizabeth Rauscher, she worked with
Andreja Puharich, for a while. She has done a lot of government contracts. Electromagentic Phenomena
in Complex Geometries and Non-Linear Phenomena, Non-Hurtzian Waves and Magnetics Monopoles.
The whole layout of the questions that you've got for "can it be?" Yes it can be and it has been, and it is
being.
Then there is Rupert Sheldrake - if you talk to physicists they will say don't pay attention to him - he is
only a biologist. Physicists say we make the machines for the doctors, and we only put two buttons on
them, one is "off" and the other is "on" ... that's all they can handle. They don't consider doctors
scientists ... But this is a very interesting idea, if you know about morphogenic fields. These guys are a
hoot, and they are on the internet - Jack Zarfatti, Paul and Fred Allen Wolf - all of them write books and
stuff. They are talking about supraluminals, faster than light travel. The answers to your questions about
"what's happening to me?" including Carl Preberim, he's a neurologist - he talks about DID/MPD on a
subatomic level - and that's the only way to address the question. It reads just like NLP, what he's talking
about - the way the tunnelling occurs - and it's pretty amazing. So physics is where it's gotta go ... I don't
have time - but if you want some real understanding of the mechanics of what is going on and what you
are going to face in the future - because this new technology - once you've been targeted as a guinea pig
- it's not going to stop until you stop it, or we stop it. PQM means post quantum mechanics.
That's the answer right there - the microtubule - when I first saw it, it was drawn by Dr. Stewart Amiroff
in his scribbling way - it was black and white and it looked like yin and yang - and I said, "wow, it's an
on and off switch" 1 is 1, 1 is 0. In the cytoskeleton of the DNA which is that structure of your DNA, it's
made up of things that look like pomegranate pods represented by the red and the blue. 1 is a +1 and 1 is
a 0, just like a computer. They are programmable by a signal but there's a back way, a feedback
phenomenon that is occurring. We don't know what the signal is yet, they haven't decided what that is,
the signal of consciousness ... but this is where they are at. In this kind of thinking lies the answer to
some of the things that people are thinking. Whether or not it is just a metaphorical paradigm shift that
we are experiencing and anthropomorphizing and living out ... or in fact ... as I believe ... somebody
understands how to use that or they are dabbling with it. Microtubules in the cytoskeleton of DNA.
New World Vistas and the Space Powers - some of you already know about this ... 13 volumes
published by the Air Force. They predict that within the next 50 years, and if they are saying this that
means they have already done it ... we are going to have a been there, done that learning technology. Did
you ever see the movie, Brain Storm? Rent it, see it. That's what they are talking about. They have
probably already got it. Whereas you wear a helmet, record your experience on some kind of medium,
play it back to the other guy, the other guy has the taste, touch, smell, sound, sight of the other person as
it is happening.
So that's the answer to me. That's what we have to do.

Fritz Springmeier Interview
CKLN fm 88.1
Ryerson Polytechnical University
Toronto, Canada

Wayne Morris:
Good morning, welcome to the International Connection. This is show #35 in the radio series on Mind
Control and over the next few shows we are going to be talking to Fritz Springmeier and Cisco Wheeler,
co-authors of the "Illuminati Formula Used to Create an Undetectable Total Mind Control Slave" and
"Deeper Insights", books about trauma based conditioning mind control. Fritz is a researcher about the
Illuminati and minister to mind control victims. Cisco Wheeler says she is from a generational Illuminati
family and that trauma-based mind control was perpetrated against her from birth. We will hear the
interview with Cisco in a couple of weeks, and today we are going to hear an interview with Fritz
Springmeier. Fritz talks about the Illuminati families and how they have used mind control to
consolidate their power throughout history. You are listening to CKLN 88.1 FM.
I am speaking with Fritz Springmeier author, lecturer and minister to mind control survivors. Welcome
to the show Fritz.
Fritz Springmeier:
Thank you and hello to all you listeners out there in radioland. I encourage you to participate with our
program today because we are going to be speaking about some important things that affect your life and
will affect the lives of your grandchildren.
Wayne Morris:
I would like to start off with asking you how you first came across the information about government
mind control.
Fritz Springmeier:
Government mind control overlaps with many other things - it overlaps with a higher government and a
secret world government called the Illuminati. As I investigated the Illuminati I had to also learn about
their front that they operate. They hide behind the veil of National Security. They use our patriotism
against us and make us think that for our own interest, for our own security of our own nations, that we
have to subject ourselves to all the secrecy that they impose upon us.
Wayne Morris:
Did you come across all the information about mind control through your research into the Illuminati, or
vice versa?
Fritz Springmeier:
Yes, through the Illuminati. That's not to say that I hadn't been watching the government too, but a lot of
what we see out front is just that - it's a front and if we really want to understand what's going on, we
have to look behind that front.
Wayne Morris:
Maybe you could explain to our listeners, to your understanding, who are the Illuminati?
Fritz Springmeier:
The Illuminati are the movers and shakers of the world. They are an elite group of bloodlines - I call
these tribes or families - there are 13 major bloodlines. They are what are called "generational satanists".
That means that they have practised their secret witchcraft for many centuries and they have passed their
religion down from one generation to the next. They lead double lives. They have one life that the world
sees and then they have a hidden life that the world doesn't see. There have been very few people that
have been able to break through the secrecy. They have taken secrecy to a fine art that I would never
have believed that anyone could achieve until I started getting into this, and there have been very few
people over the years that have broken through that secrecy at all. There was a man named John Robison
who wrote proofs of a conspiracy against all the religions and governments in Europe carried on in the
secret meetings of the Freemasons, the Illuminati and reading societies. That came out in 1798 and the
Bavarian government, by raiding several safe houses of the Illuminati, captured original Illuminati
documents back at that time period which were bound and sent out to all the governments entitled: "Die
Originalschriften des Illuminatens Ordens" (sp?) as the German title the Bavarian government gave it.
But in modern times there have been very few people that have been able to talk about the Illuminati as
it exists today, and that's been my job. To bring to the world who these people are, what their traditions
are, what they are doing, everything about them. The reason I am giving a longer version here to your
question is that when someone asks who or what are the Illuminati, they do not think like we do. People
often times interpret things around them in terms of how they themselves think or their own world view.
If you want to understand the Illuminati, you have to understand that these people do not think like you
or I.
In just one area alone, that is a large percentage of these people are programmed multiple personalities
and just that in itself creates a whole different thinking pattern from those of us who are not multiple.
Wayne Morris:
When you say the Illuminati, is this the same group that is documented that Adam Weishaupt had started
back in 1776 in Bavaria? Is this the same group?
Fritz Springmeier:
It's the same group. He actually didn't start the organization, it goes way back. These are oligarchical
families that are extremely powerful and if you go back in history and ask yourself the question, "when
did the elite, powerful, oligarchical families ever give up their power?" You can't find any point in
history. These are the families that - some of these bloodlines go clear back to Nimrod. The Rothschild
secret genealogy that they have secretly written down through the centuries, traces their genealogy back
to Nimrod. These people were the ones that controlled the mystery religions. There was a supreme
council that sat over all of these mystery religions of the ancient world. They were an extremely
powerful priesthood, and they chose to go underground for many years and continue working behind the
scenes. But they never left.
At the end of WWII there was a committee that was sent out throughout Europe to do a study of all of
the churches that had been destroyed by the war, and they discovered that in most of these Christian
churches (80%) they found that where the Christian alter had been, when these churches had been
destroyed, underneath these alters were pagan alters that had been uncovered. So what you have is that a
lot of these cathedrals were built on lay lines that were very powerful occult spiritual points and on after
hours these churches were used for what we would call satanic rituals. So this has been going on secretly
for many centuries.
Wayne Morris:
And you are saying that the Illuminati are responsible for infiltrating these churches?
Fritz Springmeier:
These are our movers and shakers, very powerful bloodlines. For instance, one of these bloodlines
includes all of your royal families of Europe. They are the people that have been in control. If you look
at a lot of these nation states, you will notice that at the head of their church are their kings and queens.
Wayne Morris:
You mentioned there are 13 families in the generations of the Illuminati families? Can you name them?
Fritz Springmeier:
I came out with a book that was specifically designed to go family by family and discuss them. The top
13 bloodlines are the Astors, Bundy, Collins, Dupont, Freeman, Kennedy, Leigh, Onassis, Rockefellers,
Rothschild, Russell ... then there is a 13th bloodline which is the Merovingian bloodline. I just simple
call it the 13th and then there is the Van Dine Illuminati bloodline. The 13th bloodline, the Merovingian,
is extremely important. It includes the royal families of Europe. In my Volume I book which covers the
Top Thirteen Illuminati Bloodlines, that's the title to it, I don't go into the Merovingian bloodline so
much because there came out a trilogy of books, "The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail" and two other
books by their authors - Baigent, Leigh and Lincoln - which is so good in discussing this bloodline that
wasn't any real reason for me to go into it.
For instance Prince Charles would be part of that. If you look at Prince Charles, you will notice in his
genealogy he is related to our Presidents Washington, Jefferson, Madison, both of the Harrisons, Tyler,
Taylor, George Bush. Bush's vice president, Dan Quayle, was also related to the royal family. Prince
Charles is also related to Mrs. Woodrow Wilson. Here in the USA the concept is that we have all of
these individuals who have been selected to run this country who are unrelated to each other -- and yet it
is quite the contrary.
I have been told when they dedicated George Bush's library in Texas recently, that President Carter
mentioned that he was reading a recently published book about the Presidents being somehow related to
each other.
Wayne Morris:
When did you first realize the existence of the Illuminati? What information came your way to spark
your interest?
Fritz Springmeier:
Everybody has probably heard of Jehovah's Witnesses and how they would go out and knock on people's
doors. I was the opposite. I was a Christian missionary to bring Jehovah's Witnesses to Christ and I was
getting tired of working with these little Jehovah's Witnesses on the street, and I was praying to God to
be given the power to decapitate the authoritarian organization that is over these Jehovah's Witnesses. At
that point, I got my prayer answered. I got this confidential information that the heads of the Watchtower
Society were collaborating with the heads of the Latter Day Saints church. That information totally
changed my life. I had bumped into the Illuminati and their mind control, and I am not to single out the
Watchtower Society and the Mormon church because I found out that their infiltration and control is
pretty well right across the whole spectrum. Your Christian organizations in general have been
infiltrated and controlled from behind the scenes.
This is when I first bumped into the Illuminati. I had learned about 20 years previous to this what a lot of
people are already aware of about the Council of Foreign Relations, Trilaterial Commission and these
types of groups, the Bilderbergers - but there is a whole other level to things. When I started getting into
reading, researching and trying to help people that wanted out of the Illuminati to get out - I started
getting in at that level. Then I had to work with the mind control. One thing led to another.
Wayne Morris:
What is the relationship of the groups you just mentioned to the Illuminati?
Fritz Springmeier:
There are a lot of groups around the world that are making decisions that are controlling things from
behind the scenes and these particular groups are fronts for the Illuminati. Not fronts in the sense that
they have no actual purpose, they serve a purpose. But there is a hidden level of control back behind
them.
Wayne Morris:
In terms of the Illuminati families and the whole organization itself, what are their goals? Why have they
infiltrated so many of these organizations?
Fritz Springmeier:
Ultimately it's to bring in what people have termed the New World Order with a man who will hold the
world's attention and carry the title The Antichrist. That's the ultimate goal and I am not trying to wax
religious on people but that's just the simple fact. When you get into deprogramming people you will see
that a lot of the things they have been programmed to do tie in with a very sophisticated plan to unify the
world under the reign of the Antichrist.
Wayne Morris:
You mentioned that the Illuminati group has used mind control to further their goals. How did you first
come into this? You have been working with your partner, Cisco Wheeler, who I understand was an
Illuminati mind control victim. How did you first meet and realize what was going on there?
Fritz Springmeier:
She was trying to break free of her mind control. What I stumbled upon was, at least in my opinion, the
greatest slavery involved in all history. You had four high level Illuminati women who had been teamed
together. They had all become Christians and were trying to break free and had become a support system
for each other. Here I was a researcher of the Illuminati, there's a lot to try and explain. When you are
under the mind control, there is a lot of programming not to reveal the secrets. It is very difficult for
someone who has been in the Illuminati and received their standard mind control to not divulge what is
going on, so it made it much easier to work with me that I had already done my homework, and they
knew I was going to understand what they were talking about. They didn't have to say a lot to
communicate certain things, because I was already aware and that saved them from a lot of the grief
from the program kicking in for having talked too much.
Cisco was part of this group attempting to escape the mind control, and I got involved in their lives and
did what I could to help them. I brought Cisco out of the Illuminati and in return my learning curve
about the Illuminati was greatly increased because I was given inside information from these people and
a number of other people. Like I say, trying to understand the secret organization, the secret bloodlines
is very difficult, because one has to stand outside of one's own culture and own way of thinking and
understand these people as they think, and they do not think like we do. Being able to work with these
people who were in the Illuminati was very valuable.
Wayne Morris:
Because they have used mind control techniques on their own family members throughout the years?
Fritz Springmeier:
Oh yes. They have been carrying out this mind control on their own people as well as others for
centuries and this has all been a very closely guarded secret. It's one of the reasons why they have been
able to carry out so much to implement this New World Order without people being able to figure out
there is such a thing as a worldwide unified conspiracy. They are very skilled in knowing how to bring
things about so they appear natural.
Wayne Morris:
What is the purpose of them using mind control on their own family members?
Fritz Springmeier:
It's really essential. If you are going to participate in the Illuminati secret life, being a programmed
multiple is basic. There are a few in the Illuminati who aren't programmed multiples, but considering
what one has to participate in. You've got a number of standard rituals involved - St. Weinbald, St.
Agnes, Grand Climax, Walpurgis, Beltane, all your solstices and equinoxes, Lamas, All Hallow's Eve,
High Grand Climax -- all of these standard rituals. These rituals are very horrific. They involved human
sacrifice. Sacrifices of babies on the High Grand Climax. On various Sabbats you've got a young female
or a male being sacrificed.
This is not something that the normal mind is going to be able to handle. The mind control and the
creation of multiple personalities where you get a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde effect - is very crucial to this
thing continuing from generation to generation.
Wayne Morris:
They really use the multiple personalities to facilitate this double life that they have to lead ... before we
get into the techniques that they use for mind control and the details of that, you mentioned they seem to
have a belief system as well. Could you talk about that?
Fritz Springmeier:
The Illuminati is the continuation of the Mystery Religions and as someone comes an adept of the
Illuminati they have to learn a whole series of paths. They give the different types of cult knowledge
names from the 12 Apostles plus the 13th is called the Holy Grail. These men and women become very
skilled in occult knowledge and I am not sure how much I should go into that, but I guess what I am
trying to say is that they will be trained in alchemy, in Indian sorcery, Druidism, Enochian magik,
Gnosticism, Hermetic magik, cabbalism, Plato, Sufism - they will know all the different branches of
occult systems.
Wayne Morris:
How do they use that information? Do they incorporate elements of all of those occult belief systems
into their own?
Fritz Springmeier:
It all ties in together. The idea is to amass occult power to yourself and that's the reason why the Collins
family was brought into the top 13 bloodlines. Of course the Merovingian Dynasty had a lot of magik
power and a lot of political power, but the Collins family which was Scottish had extremely powerful
occult powers so it was brought in to be one of the top occult lines because they were such powerful
black magicians. Cabbalism and the 26 path workings - this is all very important in the work that they
do, and it all ties in with the mind control too. But most of the therapists out there are secular or
approach it from the secular angle, and as they deal with these mind control victims' programming, they
don't touch on the spiritual aspect. What I am trying to say is that their religious beliefs can't be
separated from the mind control. It is an integral part of that.
Wayne Morris:
Do the Illuminati worship a single being such as Lucifer?
Fritz Springmeier:
You've got different levels in which people operate within the Illuminati. There is the anarchy level
which is your common witchcraft coven, and then you've got your hierarchy level. On the anarchy level
there are thousands and thousands of covens. I have listed the addresses and names of hundreds of these
in one of my books. These covens are very eclectic. They can have their own traditions, their own
rituals. There is a wide variety of practices on the anarchy level ... that's what it looks like, is total
anarchy. One doesn't see any connection.
Above that is your hierarchy level where you would have Asmodeus, your Grand Masters, and Mothers
of Darkness, Grandmothers, Granddaughters. If you are a programmed multiple, you can function at
many different levels. You can have one personality in this coven, and another personality in that coven
and this personality that is in the Masonic Lodge, and another in this hierarchy ceremony, another
participating in another Satanic ritual. It is very broken up. One of the reasons why it is not easy to
answer your question is basically everything we understood about human behaviour and how to gauge or
judge people is obsolete. The mind control, by creating programmed multiple personalities, has made all
of our ways of judging people obsolete.
Within the Illuminati the supreme goal is to balance their good deeds with their bad deeds, they are
dualists. They are Luciferians at the highest level. That's why your greatest philanthropist will very often
be your highest ranking satanist. What they are trying to do with their philanthropy is self serving when
you actually look at it. It's not as generous as it appears. They are trying to do good deeds and balance
those with their bad deeds, they believe in balance in their religion. It's a gnostic luciferianism.
Wayne Morris:
I think it might be difficult for the people listening to understand how somebody could be in public
doing good deeds and having a good public image, and at the same time having this very dark side. I
don't know if you have read the recent Judith Spencer book, "Satan's High Priest". It really illustrates
how that works very clearly. It's a true story about one particular satanic cult, a high priest, and his rise
to that.
Fritz Springmeier:
No I haven't read the book, but I am glad that you brought that out to the listeners. The way that
someone can begin to see the Illuminati is to start looking at how these people are above the wars and
the rest of what we have to suffer. For instance Pierre Samuel Dupont, during the French Revolution, all
kinds of people around Pierre lost their heads and yet, for some strange reason, Samuel Dupont managed
to "keep his head" when so many hundreds of people were losing theirs to the guillotine. One person
who was influential in protecting him was Necker's daughter, Madame Germaine Destael. She ran a cat-
house, but anyway she was intimate friends with St. Simon and St. Simon's disciples were saying at that
point in time in the early 1800's that the target date for the New World Order would be the year 2000.
Another example in history, and I brought this out in the Top 13 Illuminati Bloodlines book, is when the
U.S. went to war right after Pearl Harbor, within a few days, President Roosevelt came out with a
Presidential Decree which was a semi-secret amendment to the Trading with the Enemy Act, and it
made it legal for certain people to trade with the enemy, if they were given permission by the American
Secretary of the Treasury who at that time was Hans Morgenthale. I copied the paper work out of the
Federal Code of Regulations. They actually have this Presidential Decree where if he wanted to exempt
somebody, he could allow them to trade with the enemy. Who were the people that were given that
privilege? Rockefellers and Onassis, both of them Illuminati kingpins. During WWII every ship that was
a Greek merchant ship was sunk during the War by one side or the other. Something happened and
essentially all of the Greek shippers lost their vessels. There was one Greek shipper, Aristotle Onassis,
who didn't lose a single ship and his vessels sailed through all the war zones. None of the Allies or the
Axis powers ever attacked his ships. For something like that to happen, you have to have full
collaboration at the highest level. You see these kinds of things going like - Pierre Samuel Dupont,
Aristotle Onassis. Then you are looking at somebody who is Illuminati. They sit above all these conflicts
that they create for all the common people.
Wayne Morris:
This way of bypassing trading with the enemy regulations, how has this been utilized with regard to
WWII or the Bolshevik revolution for that matter?
Fritz Springmeier:
In fact there is an entire book out - I think the title is "Trading with the Enemy", it came out in 1983 and
answers your question. Rockefeller Standard Oil shipped gas and oil to Spain which then piped it
directly to the Nazis. The Allies knew that Rockefeller was supplying the Germans. That prolonged the
War a couple of year. But you don't hear about this by establishment historians. There was a lot of
important trading during WWII was necessary to sustain the Nazi war machine.
And you mentioned the Bolshevik revolution. Again you will see there was a lot of finances sent from,
as you are probably well aware and some listeners are aware, from Kuhn Laib (sp) and Company and
some of these other llumaniti people, and that money was used by the Bolsheviks to finance the
revolution. There were a lot of other agreements made at that time and things done to help them out.
There is a lot going on behind the scenes.
Wayne Morris:
It seems like they are promoting a strategy of tension where they are funding both sides and basically
profiting from the resultant conflicts that they are fomenting.
Fritz Springmeier:
One could go on and on. For instance Heinrich Mueller who was head of the Gestapo - you will notice
that at one point he took an old Jewish family and he himself had to personally carry their suitcases to
his own car and when he got them to the Swiss border, he carried their suitcases. The Swiss bodyguards
by the way, were laughing seeing the head of Gestapo helping an old Jewish family escape Nazi
Germany. When the listener out there starts seeing these kinds of things, now that you have heard me
talk, you can begin to realize that there is a hidden level out there, way beyond what the common person
is allowed to see at that Illuminati level. These are the people who are collaborating behind the scenes
where you have Catholics and Protestants and Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormon leaders - you think
these people are at each other's throats - but they are key Illuminati people who are secretly
collaborating.
Wayne Morris:
In talking about the Illuminati, I think a number of people may have difficulty believing that there is a
Unified Liberal Conspiracy to control the world. Even myself, up until recently, until I started
researching into the mind control, I thought the Illuminati was a fictitious group. In doing your research
about the Illuminati, what were some of your other sources of information besides the people on the
inside that had escaped?
Fritz Springmeier:
My sources, besides my eye witnesses, were interviewing a number of honest law enforcement and
private investigators - in fact some of these people are still ongoing friends of mine. Over the years I
have studied thousands of books, and thousands of documents which has meant going to special
libraries, such as the Genealogical Library at Salt Lake City. I have interviewed and worked with many
therapists and I have taken off and travelled to sites where programming is done, where rituals are done,
where crimes have been committed. For instance in Washington state, a number of hours from here,
there is a full scale replica of Stonehenge. Below this replica of Stonehenge which sits on a hill, is a
cemetery a number of feet away and Illuminati rituals are done at that cemetery. That's an example of a
place that I have gone and looked at for myself.
I need to bring in another concept here that is important to research. It's not all simply just getting a lot
of interviews and the facts because the raw facts aren't going to do it. When I was in college and I was
taking counselling, the psychologist who was teaching the class gave some excellent advice. He said,
"when you are listening to people or examining a situation, don't look at the details but look at the
process. The details may throw you for a loop because people will lie, they will give contradictory
information. Look at the process." That's a very good principle. What I have been doing is analyzing a
lot of raw data, raw facts and interview information, and I have been putting together a coherent puzzle.
That means you have to overlook a lot of disinformation.
Wayne Morris:
In the late seventies there was a certain amount of information about CIA mind control that came out to
the public, and I would like to know what you think are the problems inherent in trying to prove the
existence of mind control to a general audience through government documentation?
Fritz Springmeier:
The problems with trying to expose things through government documentation are one, the
documentation has been destroyed or tampered with and to get the government involved in exposing
these things, what you are basically doing is asking a bunch of criminals, that's what they are even
thought they work in government positions, to expose themselves with paperwork. That's just not the
way things work. When we think about the Nazis, they were trying to destroy all traces of their crimes.
They tried, they didn't succeed. That gives me some hope that even though a great percentage of the
proof of the mind control in terms of government documentation has been destroyed, I am still
convinced that tons of documents still exist. But I think even better than those tons of documents are the
living proof we have in the tens of thousands of identified living victims.
The other side to the problem of getting government documents is that then you have to have some way
to broadcast that to the public at large and we have a controlled media, and unfortunately the media is
very tight with the government. You can really question whether you would ever see our controlled
media fully expose to the proper degree the people that need to be exposed.
Wayne Morris:
It seems highly unlikely that the mainstream media is going to be investigating this. It's more likely to be
coming from independent investigation and independent publishers of this information.
Fritz Springmeier:
I would love to see the places where the records are kept broken into and these records exposed, but the
only way I can see this happening would be if there was a revolution on the magnitude of what happened
in Eastern Europe where Stasi records and things like this were exposed to the light of day.
Wayne Morris:
Do you think a government investigation into the mind control experiments, similar to what has
happened with the Tuskegee syphilis and the radiation experiments would actually bring out
information?
Fritz Springmeier:
I believe it would bring out information. That's true. However, for the government to investigate this is
like asking the fox how much of a threat he is to chickens. The fox is going to tell us something, enough
to satisfy us, but I am real leery about giving the government another chance to push some ulterior
agenda. The bottom line is that a government investigation is going to cost us more tax dollars, and I
think people sometimes forget that every time they send their government scurrying around doing
something that it comes out of their pocketbook.
Wayne Morris:
Do you think there is any benefit though, to society as a whole, in terms of having a government
investigation going on, and having the government at least admit they did do these kinds of
experiments? Is there any benefit to the people as a whole in trying to expose this?
Fritz Springmeier:
As a whole? The way you ask your question is going to reflect the way I answer. No, it will not. The
reason why I say this is that earlier on the US Congress had Rockefeller investigate the CIA. Rockefeller
investigate the CIA!?! (Laughs) Of course his investigating committee came up with abuses, they have
got to find something wrong, but the thing of it is that it makes Rockefeller look like a good fellow. "Oh
look he's a crusader who is trying to expose the bad guys." They always throw in an ulterior agenda. If
they are going to do something against themselves, they use it as another opportunity to work on some
other agenda. If they expose A, B and C about mind control, then they are probably doing it in a way so
they are misdirecting people's attention from their latest technology through an older model that they
have discontinued, or something like that. They are going to work in some ulterior agenda that when it's
all said and done, it has actually done a disservice.
Wayne Morris:
How do you think the information about mind control has been kept from public attention for so long?
Fritz Springmeier:
As we mentioned just a little bit earlier, we have a controlled media and in a number of my publications
I have gone into detail and showed who is in control of the media, and how these people are Illuminati
members or participating in their Illuminati fronts. I document how the Rockefellers, and the
Rothschilds and the William Randolph Hearsts - Illuminati kingpins - control the media. I think it's
appropriate a couple of anecdotes.
I was visiting one day with a Christian minister and he was asking me what I did since I worked full
time exposing the mind control and helping victims of mind control, and exposing the New World
Order's agenda. I was honest with him, and told him that and in the course of doing that I mentioned
something about the controlled media and boy he hit the roof. He went ballistic on me because just prior
to becoming a minister he had been an ABC reporter. He said, "there is no control over the media! I was
allowed to write and have any stories that I wanted!" I said, "whoa, slow down, let me ask you some
questions." When you were hired, your superior hired you and kept you on because he liked the way you
thought and the way you wrote ... and likewise his superior liked the way he thought and the way he
wrote ... and on and on down the line. If anybody had written or thought in ways that weren't the
approved ways of thinking and writing you would have gotten in trouble, wouldn't you. He said "yes." I
said, that's it ... when I work with victims of mind control they can't see that they are under
programming. As long as they do exactly what the programming asks them to do, they don't know that
they are in programming. The only time that they know that there is any programming there is if they
step out and act against it. If you are running with the wind behind your back or if you are in a stream
and you are floating down the stream, you don't notice the current. But when you try to swim upstream
is when you really notice the power of the current. So if you as a reporter step out of what their
expectations are, that's when you get clobbered and you realize there is a lot of heavy force behind going
against the direction the way they want to go in. He said, "you're right." I said if you had written an
article that had been contrary to the way your boss thought, you would have been in trouble, wouldn't
you? He said, "yes, you are right, I see your point."
That's my point. People don't notice the control until you start bucking against that control and then you
are going to find out how much control there is over our entire society.
Wayne Morris:
It seems that control in the newsrooms is almost at an unspoken level, and often for a lot of reporters it's
an economic motivation as well. The stories that their editors do get accepted, the stories the editors
don't like don't get accepted and the reporters don't get paid for it. They very quickly appreciate what
their editors are going to accept and print.
Fritz Springmeier:
Exactly.
Wayne Morris:
I would like to talk about the mind control that the Illuminati have used and the techniques therein. What
is your understanding of the forms of mind control they have used?
Fritz Springmeier:
The phrase that I like to use is "Total Mind Control" because it totally controls the person - body, soul
and spirit. And the common person out there has never really imagined that something so all-
encompassing or so horrendous or so totally powerful even exists. The type of mind control the
Illuminati use - I think some people think "oh, mind control - television - yeah - subliminals." No. I am
talking about something that is 1000 or 10,000 times more powerful. This mind control is totally
undetectable and it totally controls the person and it uses every known technique of controlling a person
wrapped up in a sophisticated group package. That's one of the important things that a lot of people have
not emphasized - that it's not one technique, but what makes this total mind control of the Illuminati so
powerful is that it's a sophisticated group package incorporating all of the known techniques of control.
All of these methods have been carefully interwoven. When you listen to someone from an intelligence
agency, occasionally they have talked similar to this, where they will say, "we tried such and such a
technique but it only worked in 70% of the cases so we couldn't use it ... and we tried this technique and
it only worked part of the time." But what they are not telling you is that if you take a method that works
only 70% of the time and match that to another technique that works 60% of the time, and another
technique that works 50% of the time and you have 100 techniques wrapped up together like that, you
make a package deal that totally locks the victim in to the control.
Wayne Morris:
Can you talk about some of these techniques individually and how they were used as a group package?
Fritz Springmeier:
When I started out to describe to people what was going on, I had files and files. I had about 150 files of
different techniques. I was thinking to myself, well I can't talk about 150 techniques, that's too
overwhelming for people. I thought and realize that all of these techniques broke down into 12 sciences.
One of the sciences is the science of trauma and torture. Others is how to use applied drugs to control a
person; their ability to use mental states such as hypnosis, dissociation, the trance states; their skill at
deceiving people and deceiving the victim themselves. One needs to understand that the victims of the
Illuminati mind control do not even know themselves that they are under control. So there is a lot of skill
in using fiction and deceit and fronts and covers. There is a science of using spiritual things to control a
person. In fact actually that is perhaps one of the major, if not 'the major' method of controlling a person.
There is a science of using spiritual things to control a person. In fact actually that is perhaps one of the
major, if not the major method of controlling a person. One of the things that's not political popular
today for people today in science to admit is that mankind has a spiritual side to them, but humans do
have a spiritual side to them and the Illuminati understand how to spiritually control someone. Their
understanding of that has boggled my mind. They have only allowed the common people including the
Christian people - the crumbs so to speak - even our ministers have only been given the crumbs on how
to develop a person spiritually.
Wayne Morris:
And how do you feel they have developed this and gained this knowledge?
Fritz Springmeier:
A lot of this began back in the Sleep Temples of the Egyptians. We go back to your Egyptian priesthood
and the Mystery religions - they were already learning at that time how to use electric shock - they used
electric eels and other things to electrically shock people. They had already started to learn the use of
drugs and herbs to create altered states and to control people. These were secrets though that were very
closely guarded by these Illuminati families and their Mystery religion priesthood. But they continued to
develop these over the centuries. Another example of a closely guarded secret was the ability to do
cranial manipulation. During the Middle Ages and even centuries prior to that, the oligarchical families
that controlled the common people had specialists that did torture for the kings, and they kept their
secrets about torturing to themselves. One of the things they developed was the ability to do cranial
manipulation. You have to be very careful when you start moving the bones of the skull. A lot of people
don't realize that the skull is not a solid bone, but it has sutures between the different parts of it, and you
can do very subtle manipulations and move those skull bones. In fact today there is something called
cranial osteopathy. These osteopaths are very skilled in using their fingers. That developed from the
family of bone-setters who tied back into the occult who had learned the secret occult skills of
manipulation.
Wayne Morris:
What has effect has this had in terms of the mind control - the cranial manipulation?
Fritz Springmeier:
Cranial manipulation has been kept an occult secret in occult bloodlines for centuries. And it can be used
for good, to heal people. It can be used to change the way the face looks to improve the face, or it can be
used for evil, to torture someone or to control their mind. By manipulating the skull you can actually
change the way the person thinks to make them more dissociative, or more compliant, or develop their
thinking in other ways.
Wayne Morris:
Can you explain how they would start using these techniques, and generally at what age they would
start?
Fritz Springmeier:
When a child is conceived, a lot of them - their very birth has been an idea from the start. Somebody
who is in the Illuminati conceiving a child in an occult ritual with a woman. It gets very involved as to
how they hide their lineages. Let's put it this way. Not everybody born to mothers are actually the
biological children of that mother. There is a lot of switching done at hospitals and so forth. The child's
birth has been planned. While the child is in the fetus, they already begin certain things to test the fetus'
mental abilities and to traumatize that fetus so it will be more dissociated.
Wayne Morris:
How would they do that?
Fritz Springmeier:
A fetus does not like to be poked, does not like substances that taste bad. If a mother eats a lot of sugar
they have shown by watching the fetus that these unborn children like the taste of sugar as it diffuses
into what the child is getting from the mother. So if you combine a lot of these things that are horrific. If
you have a lot of loud noises - and the father is screaming at the mother and throwing her around and
abusing the mother, making the mother very upset. Then you've got loud music, rock and roll, or
screaming or something. You have also given the mother something to eat that tasted really bad to the
fetus and you can do a number of things that are going to hit that little unborn child at the same time. It's
going to be overwhelmed, and it's going to develop its ability to dissociate.
Wayne Morris:
To your awareness, has electricity been used in this regard?
Fritz Springmeier:
Not so much in the traumatization of the fetus. They use that after the child is born. They oftentimes will
have a premature birth. It happens in many different ways, but one of the methods they like to use is to
have a premature birth because then the child can be traumatized naturally. There are a whole bunch of
natural traumas that go along with being premature. Your skin is very sensitive, you get catheters up
your behind, and so forth. They want the traumatization to begin very early on because they want
somebody who can trance out and dissociate from the pain. You are probably familiar with the Indian
fakirs - the holy men in Indian who can walk on coals and stick pins in themselves and sleep on beds of
nails. How does it happen? Because they are able to dissociate and go into a trance state, an altered state.
The Illuminati want to create individuals who are able to dissociate very well, because that is part of the
requirement to have the ability to have a multiple personality.
Wayne Morris:
And that is the purpose of the traumatization - is to create that dissociation?
Fritz Springmeier:
That's one of the purposes.
Wayne Morris:
What is the importance of dissociation within the total mind control?
Fritz Springmeier:
It's extremely important. You will hear a lot in recent times about electronic mind control, and that's
being used to divert people away from the more important issue of multiple personality disorder or DID.
The ability to create multiple personalities that are programmed is extremely important. It's why they
have the ability to be secret, it's why they are able to do so much in secret. The electronic mind control -
throwing mental ideas into somebody's brain which are foreign is not that much of a threat. I have
worked with quite a few victims of electronic mind control and the majority, if not all of them, are able
to recognize that something is being beamed into their heads that is foreign. But when you are
dissociated and you have amnesia between yourself and other parts of your mind, you don't know what
you yourself in your entirety are all about. For instance I had a Christian minister who spent some time
trying to deprogram - he has come and visited here to work on his programming. Here you have a
Christian minister who, horrors of horrors, discovers that he has a dissociated part of his mind which has
been functioning within the Illuminati and these other parts of his mind are satanic. Imagine being a man
of God and finding out that you have parts of yourself that sacrifice people ... (laughs). That's why this
ability to dissociate into multiple personalities is such a dangerous ability.
Wayne Morris:
Maybe you can talk about the nature of dissociation and how that is used for controlling somebody and
also, as you mentioned, being not aware of the different identities that are being used for other
purposes ...
Fritz Springmeier:
People are familiar with dissociation and how the mind has the ability to function on several tracks. For
instance, if you are at a party and engrossed in a conversation with somebody and you are focused on
what they are saying, and all of a sudden somebody across the room says your name, and your mind
immediately switches and goes "oh they are calling me over there", well that's one evidence, and there
are other ways to realize that the mind is not one monolithic entity but it is broken up into components.
While you were engaged in that conversation with somebody, there was one part of your mind which
was still listening to other things. It was a dissociated part of the conscious mind; in other words, it was
dissociated from the conscious. You weren't conscious of that part of your mind that was listening to the
rest of the conversation but it was.
Hypnosis, trance and dissociation are just different aspects of the same thing. The Illuminati have
learned over the centuries how to put people in different mental states and the information is learned in
the different states. To access that information best, you need to go back to that particular state. People
realize what I am saying because when you get into a particular situation that's reminiscent of a previous
experience, that's when your memory is best triggered. They go a lot further than just using natural
dissociation. They have learned how to create amnesia walls within the mind and basically what they are
doing to the mind is the same as what we do to computers. In order to make computers functional they
had to figure out some way to section off part of the computer's memory so the user could not access
that memory. It had to nest that memory. You will notice that when you reboot your computer, the
computer reboots itself with memory that you weren't able to access. That memory was dissociated - in
human terms I guess you could say there is an amnesia wall there.
They know how to build walls in the mind to mentally section off the mind - and they do this through
trauma. If you get a severe enough trauma what the mind will do in order to continue functioning is
dissociate that trauma with an amnesia wall. Let's say you were in war and your best friend had just
gotten blown to smithereens by artillery ... his guts are lying out. Your mind may build amnesia walls
around this event and you may not be able to remember it. So the worse the trauma, the better the
amnesia wall.
The Illuminati take a small child about two years old, and they begin traumatizing it with the worst
traumas that are imaginable so that they can create these amnesia walls. They find these dissociated
pieces of the mind which are just like in a sense floppy disks, then they put in their programming to the
dissociated parts of the mind as to what they want that part to become. Some of these parts they make
into personalities and they create MPD, DID and then while they are creating these multiple
personalities, they are programming them to be exactly what they want them to be.
Wayne Morris:
Before we get into what kinds of things they are used for, maybe we can just go back and talk about how
a person is conditioned to be a total mind control slave, and pick it up when the child is born. What
happens there in terms of the conditioning.
Fritz Springmeier:
The programmers like to say "this child is a piece of clay", and they view themselves as the potter's
wheel, of course. They are very skilled in knowing how to take a child and work with that child's mind
to create what they want. We could talk all day about this. One of the aspects we haven't gotten into yet
is their ability to go in and identify - they use EEG's - backtracking and stepping outside of the
Illuminati for a second ... You've got researchers like Hans Eisneck, who happened to have been born in
Germany and other researchers too who studied how your average _______ potentials - these are
brainwaves - can be monitored and can be used to see what type of thinking that brain is capable of. You
can use EEG's to determine personality and IQ. They have correlated their ability to study the human
brain with EEG's to John Gittinger's PAS tests. When a child is born they begin testing its brain to see
what is this person's personality, what type of thinking is this person capable of, what type of career
should be plan out for this person. So they take the natural bent of the mind, the natural capabilities of
the mind and they work with that. Likewise when they are doing the traumatization and they are splitting
the mind, they work with the child's creativity and what those pieces of the mind think.
Wayne Morris:
Typically at what age do these tests start - the EEG's and the Personality Assessment Surveys ...
Fritz Springmeier:
They do some of it while the child is still a fetus, and after its born they start neonatal behavioral
assessment skills, the Bailey Scales and other tests, and within a short time, perhaps by 18 months, they
will be doing EEG's and determining what they want to do. Once they determine what kind of life they
want to structure for this person, they begin the mind control to structure the person for that career. This
is why people like myself who have a natural intelligence that has never been connected to any of these
bloodlines, we have such a hard time out there in the competition because the Illuminati can take a
particular child and manipulate things from behind the scenes and open all the right doors for this
person, and they can get them the grants and the schooling and everything they need and adding impetus
to this person's career is the mind control that is steering them in that direction too. The end product is
you end up with somebody who is an engineer or a lawyer or a politician who is very highly qualified
for what they are doing.
Wayne Morris:
Once they have controlled somebody, what kinds of things would they be used to do for the Illuminati?
Fritz Springmeier:
This has not been brought out very well by other people and maybe it's just simply because they are not
aware of it, but the mind control is not just to create somebody who is a sexual slave, but it's to infiltrate
and control society across the board. Understand that if you are going to control something like
establishment medicine - you have to have your people in key positions because the weakest link the
chain is going to break. You can't have any weak links. They salt their people throughout society in
general, from the gutter to the castles. An example of one group of people that they have created for
modern society are stalkers. In my recent book, Deeper Insights Into the Illuminati Formula, I go into
how they create stalkers and why they create stalkers.
Let's say you are trying to control medicine because the establishment medical system brings them in
lots of money and the medical establishment is very powerful, you have to have control of the entire
spectrum of things - the hospitals, what kind of health care is going to be available, the type of training
these doctors are going to get, they have created secret strike forces like the CCHI and the NCHF that
keep people in line. All of this requires mind control slaves being salted in throughout the entire system.
If you have one weak link - for instance if you have one person who is practising alternative medicine
and you don't control the judicial system - you are not going to be able to convict, eg. this homeopathic
doctor if you don't control the judicial system. You have to have this vast secret apparatus, and until
people understand the mind control, they can't understand how there could possibly be the type of
control that they have.
Wayne Morris:
In order to understand how they are able to control these people that they have put in key positions in
society, we do have to talk more about the techniques of mind control, and maybe we can go into that
now, of how they are able to effect control over these people. For example, the trauma.
Fritz Springmeier:
The trauma would be used for a whole number of reasons, but at the very basic level when you
traumatize somebody to the point where they almost die, or actually to be more specific they actually do
"kill" these people but they know exactly how many seconds they can allow them to be killed and still
bring them back to life. They manipulate near-death experiences, they have that down to a science. That
was the major reason that you had the major concentration camp experiments by Mengele where people
were tortured. He belonged to an Illuminati bloodline and was doing Illuminati research for mind control
purposes, he did a lot of research on twins. They found out exactly how much trauma you could give
different people before you killed them. What that trauma does is it puts the brain back into a survival
mode and now I have to get into explaining that the popular concept of the brain being one monolithic
brain is real deceptive.
It has been kept very secret but the human brain is actually seven brains. The first brain of the human
mind - the medullah and the pons - is called the Reptilian Brain because it thinks like a reptilian. If you
are always traumatizing a person, you keep them in their reptilian thinking or their survival based
thinking. Survival based thinking has certain characteristics. At the very basic level, the trauma can be
used to keep somebody within their survival based thinking. It also creates fear and there is a whole
series that spiritually happen to a person when they get caught up in fear.
If you think in terms of blackmail, the listener may remember when he was a child and somebody
grabbed your arm and twisted it and said "say uncle" and of course your arm hurt, and you gave in.
That's a very simple type of mind control. The trauma and the torture can be used in a very simple way -
if you don't comply it is going to hurt. Men who are slaves are electroshocked in their genitals. It is very
painful. That's a very simple way of bringing someone in line. Then of course there are ways the trauma
is used to split the mind, fracture them into thousands of pieces, create multiple personality disorder.
That's one of the techniques.
Wayne Morris:
Just to stay on the topic of trauma, what is the importance of maintaining that trauma in terms of keeping
the conditioning intact and keeping the state of dissociation intact?
Fritz Springmeier:
They want to maintain a high level of trance and dissociative behaviour in the victim, so they like to
continue traumatizing the person. As I brought out earlier, there is more involved than just keeping the
dissociative level high. Your also trying to maintain the person to stay in the reptilian, survival based
thinking; trying to keep them having a spirit of fear controlling their lives, so they don't slack off. They
secretly train the parents of the children who are being programmed on how to abuse their children so
they keep their children very dissociative. Not only that, if the children are going to some established
religious institute, eg. Catholic church, Episcopalian church, their priests, their clergymen have been
trained in how to abuse the children. This is why you have such a big modern day problem within the
Catholic church. So many of the priests abusing children and the lawsuits brought against this church,
and some people have said they think it is going to financially bankrupt the church - the reason why so
much of this is going on is for purposes of mind control.
Wayne Morris:
Have these priests and clergymen been coerced to participate in this, or are they part of these Illuminati
families? What is their role?
Fritz Springmeier:
There are a lot of different reasons why someone is a pedophile. One of the problems within the Catholic
church is that there haven't been normal outlets for sexual activity provided for priests and nuns, and
then they are given these subversive ways to release their sexuality. Some of them are actually secret
satanists and this is part of the reward they receive from a secret coven. There are various reasons as to
why - some just go along because that's what everybody else is doing and it is allowed until people put
their foot down and say we are not going to tolerate this. I can talk about a number of cases where
people did put their foot down and say we are not going to tolerate this abuse of our child by the clergy,
and the hierarchy that should have penalized this person simply promoted them and sent them to some
other part of the country. Why they do it? God knows why each person has become an abuser.
Wayne Morris:
Can you explain how the dissociation has been used in terms of programming and the structure of that
programming?
Fritz Springmeier:
The victim of the mind control has had their mind split into many personalities, actually far more
personalities than what the people in the therapeutic community generally realize. Cisco who I brought
out of the Illuminati has very standard programming in many ways, although she has unique features to
her system of personalities. She had a very standard grid of 13x13x13 alter personalities. Each one of
those personalities has been given a separate history, separate personality which has its own likes and
dislikes. What they did was turn what was one person into a whole city of people and the only way the
mind of the slave can function is if it relies upon the master to give it stability. Imagine if your mind was
a whole series of competing persons, each with their own ideas, likes, dislikes. The only way to bring
some order out of the chaos would be to have some controlling entity ordering that chaos. Some of the
slaves have reached the point of becoming aware that they are multiples and on the deeper levels they
realize that they need the mind control for their minds not to break down into total craziness. Another
way of looking at it is - what the Illuminati are doing is creating controlled insanity for these victims of
the mind control to endure the horrific trauma that's given to them, they have to isolate their memories
of that trauma and the parts of the mind that have to pick up some of that trauma - some of those parts,
in essence, I hate to use the word "crazy", but they are taking the garbage that's happening and the mind
is shuffling and isolating it. If those walls of dissociation break down, then the other parts of the mind
are going to have to deal with a lot of garbage.
Wayne Morris:
Why do you think they needed so many identities to be in place?
Fritz Springmeier:
If you are going to invest the time to create a robot, you are going to incorporate as many capabilities as
possible and you want to compartmentalize so everything is secret. One of the reasons why intelligence
agencies function so well - eg. CIA - is that they compartmentalize everything. You only "know" on a
regional basis. They do the same with these people's minds. A slave may function on many different
levels. He's got his front - they create the best front possible - his or her everyday life - but then they
may want to use that person for drug smuggling, money laundering, carrying messages, performing
satanic rituals, producing porn movies, assassinating somebody, spying on somebody - and then you've
got internal jobs too. Going back to what I said earlier, remembering how the mind has been fractured
into many dissociated pieces, and essentially a whole city of people has been made out of those pieces.
In order for that city of people to function, you have to have different jobs. You will have some of the
older personalities taking care of baby personalities internally in the person's mind - you have functions -
gatekeepers, hierarchy alters that are controlling other alters - a hierarchy of personalities. That's a whole
science in itself - how to structure dissociated parts of the mind.
Wayne Morris:
You mentioned the one structure, 13x13x13 grid. Are there other structures used that you are aware of?
Fritz Springmeier:
There are many different structures. It all depends on the whim and fancy of the programmer as he
shatters the victim's mind, he can reassemble that mind however he wants to. He can use a sphere - they
create systems within systems too. A common system within a system is the cabalistic tree of life.
Wayne Morris:
Do you see similarities in the survivors that you have been working with in terms of the structures?
Fritz Springmeier:
Oh yes. That's one of the things - you can have a therapist in one state, and they will not have know
anything about MPD or DID and they will start working with the victim and call another therapist for
help and taking notes. The victim will say, "I drew these pictures. I don't know what they mean." "I am
fascinated with Star Trek (or the Wizard of Oz) (Mickey Mouse)". The therapist will call another
therapist and ask what they make of this. If this other therapist is experienced, they may say "oh hey -
I've got somebody who is just like that." All across the country, there are therapists and then people like
myself who is a minister working with these people who are running into the same patterns time and
time again, the same structures. Like I was saying, working with people who were in the Illuminati,
working with people that did the programming itself, is really helping my learning curve too in terms of
the structures that are built in.
Another common structure you will see is a lot of mirror imaging, that's a more of a technique than a
structure.
Wayne Morris:
What do you mean by that? The mirroring of an alter?
Fritz Springmeier:
Mirroring of all kinds of things. That's part of the technique of deceit.
Wayne Morris:
That's the purpose of using this mirroring, for example if a therapist came across one alter, dealt with,
there may have been a mirror of that ...
Fritz Springmeier:
A lot of the therapists think they are dealing with a particular personality but they are dealing with its
mirror image. The systems are programmed, created so that if somebody starts working with them there
are all these defensive mechanisms that are triggered. One of the defensive mechanisms is to have mirror
image alters take the place of who the therapist is trying to work with. So the therapist thinks they have
done something but they have actually just played games. Mirror images of things within the
programming itself so that when one particular personality tries to work on their mind's programming,
the mind is so confusing about what they still internally - that they can't figure out their own mind.
The best manager is somebody who doesn't have to spend a lot of time giving instructions to a person. If
you are a slave master and you have to be constantly telling that slave what to do, and constantly
correcting it, and making sure it's doing its job, you become a slave to the slave.
What you want to do is create a human robot which will be self-directed and self-correcting so they
create hierarchies of alters within the person and one of the things they do is create alter personalities
within the person's mind who think they are the programmer themself.
So, Ewen Cameron who was a programmer - his victim would have personalities within them that would
think they are Ewen Cameron. Therefore they would carry out the abuse of other personalities as they
would perceive Ewen Cameron would do it. That's one use of mirrors. Another use of mirrors is if you
are teaming two slaves together, let's say you and are teamed. I would have personalities in me that think
they are you and you would have personalities created in you that think they are me and it would further
the binding process.
Wayne Morris:
Generally speaking, with people who have this kind of mind control, how many personalities are you
talking about?
Fritz Springmeier:
A lot. Cisco has 30,000 standard alters and then there are lots of other dissociated pieces too. That would
not be abnormal. The small part of the therapeutic community that's trying to address DID generally
work with a few front personalities. There are number of books out there written by people with MPD
where the therapist came in and worked with five or six front personalities. The Illuminati step back and
allow them to integrate some front personalities and the person is told by the therapist "you are now
integrated, you're fine" and they left therapy, and everybody is happy. The victim thinks they are free of
their MPD, the therapist has made a lot of money and gotten famous over some book they have written,
and the Illuminati is happy because these are just front alters that have been stabilized. The system of
alters are far more complex than people realize.
Wayne Morris:
What are the dangers involved in dealing with therapy with a mind control victim, particularly when a
therapist may be unaware of the techniques and structures of mind control?
Fritz Springmeier:
I have to caution people that some of the best minds of the 20th century - we have hundreds, if not
thousands, of the best minds who have spent many, many years figuring out how to build these
mechanisms into the mind slaves to protect the programming. In a sense what it is like - imagine you are
going in to try and hack a computer - imagine a system that is set up so that if someone is not an
approved user comes into the room and looks at the computer, the computer shuts down, the computer
explodes. That's really what you are looking at in trying to work with a mind control victim - they have a
lot of suicide programming so that if the front alters, the personalities that hold the body day in and day
out - if they were ever to find out they were in mind control, or that they were a multiple personality,
they would commit suicide. You have all kinds of defensive programs. Not only is the computer
programmed to explode if you walk into the room, but if you touch the keyboard as an unauthorized
user, again the computer is programmed to explode. Every step of the way there are backup programs to
deceive, to destroy. It is not easy. It is something the novice does not want to get into. It's something that
takes a lot of time and patience and skill, and a lot of love for the victims too. One has to really abhor
what is going on to have the motivation that it takes to work with such a complex problem.
Wayne Morris:
What would you recommend for therapists wanting to know more about how this is done, and how they
can help heal the victims?
Fritz Springmeier:
I strongly recommend our three books - I co-authored these 3 books with Cisco Wheeler. The one I
already mentioned, "The Illuminati Formula Used to Create a Total Mind Controlled Slave". The sequel
to that which is 620 pages, "Deeper Insights into the Illuminati Formula", part 1 is how the control
comes about and part 2 is how the help comes about. We've got a lot of good information in there laying
the foundation as to what's happened, and how to begin to unravel what has happened.
Wayne Morris:
In terms of your own work, how much success have you had in working with victims of mind control?
Fritz Springmeier:
The problem that the mind control presents is overwhelming, and there are countless therapeutic issues,
so there is no end to the different issues that can be worked on. Cisco and I have freely given of our time
to help any victim of mind control in whatever way we could. The degree of therapeutic success depends
on a number of things. One, it depends upon the situation the victim puts themselves in. If they are
willing to extract themselves from their everyday life and go somewhere where it is safe, they are going
to do a lot more - work more therapeutic issues, because the mind of a mind controlled slave is not going
to let its guard down as long as it's not safe. This gets back into understanding how the reptilian mind
and the survival based thinking can override other areas of the mind. When you become deathly
frightened for your life, your survival instincts take precedence over the other parts of your brain. If you
have been traumatized your entire life, your survival based thinking is your primary method of thinking
and it doesn't take much to throw you into the fear based survival based thinking. So the first criteria for
doing successful work with a mind control victim is to get them someplace safe. You could say that
99.9% of the victims of mind control have never been given that. Therapists do not set things up for
survivors or victims of mind control to be in any safe situation. When I say safe, I mean they have to be
safe 24 hours a day.
Cisco and I have been able to work with victims to the degree the situation allowed. There is no end to
the work we could do if the right set-up presented itself. This is why I was hoping to create a
deprogramming centre. There was a man who was CIA who was very horrified at what the government
intelligence agencies had been doing to people, and I have a friend whom this CIA man knew who also
works at providing therapy for mind control victims. This CIA man wrote into his will to give a number
of millions of dollars to my clients for the purpose of doing therapy work with mind control victims.
And then my friend in turn was going to give me a couple of million dollars so I could start a
deprogramming centre. This man's will when he died, was in the Oklahoma Federal Building, and the
only copy of the will that we know about was in there. So I was rather upset when the building
exploded, because that short-circuited our plans to build a couple of deprogramming centres. Short of
building some place that is safe and that is staffed with competent people, it is extremely difficult to
accomplish much.
Even when I have accomplished positive therapy with a victim, all that it takes for the other side to do is
physically grab them and reprogram them. This is what has happened for me over the past years in terms
of trying to help victims, and as a warning to the public and the therapeutic community at large, at this
point not a whole lot has really been accomplished to thwart the mind control.
Wayne Morris:
Now in the optimal situation, to what degree have you been able to free the victims of the control?
Fritz Springmeier:
Given the optimal situation where we have someone who is safe, we can take down the mind control.
We can do some serious re-structuring and make some really serious headway in helping a person. We
can do some significant spiritual work with them. There can be some integrating work begun. There are
all kinds of things that can happen. On the flip side of it, is the work ever finished? I don't think it is,
because the damage that has been done is so extensive, and you never know as a therapist that you have
succeeded in finding every dissociated fragment of the mind. Remember there are thousands of
fragments of the mind because the traumatization is so prolonged over so many years, and is so horrific,
that you can never be sure that you have gotten all of the dissociated pieces, and each of those
dissociated pieces is probably going to have programming attached to it.
Wayne Morris:
What is your sense of how many people have been affected by this?
Fritz Springmeier:
A very conservative estimate - I shouldn't even say estimate because I have computed it from about
seven different angles - a conservative figure is 2 million Americans have been programmed with
trauma based total mind control.
Wayne Morris:
And that's just in the USA?
Fritz Springmeier:
Yes.
Wayne Morris:
And is it your sense that this is going on world-wide?
Fritz Springmeier:
Oh indeed yes, it is. More with your primary political powers. You've got programming going on in
Europe, Russia, the U.S.A. - those are your primary areas of programming but in other places too.
Wayne Morris:
I would like to talk about some of the other techniques now of mind control. How has electricity played
a role?
Fritz Springmeier:
Electric shock has been a standard part of the abuse, and it serves as a form of trauma. And stun guns are
a standard item to keep the slaves in line and also to erase their memories. They might use perhaps a
120,000 DC volt stun gun to erase and compartmentalize fragments, memories of a slave who has just
been used. When you shock a person, it destroys the short-term memory. It fragments it, 24 hours either
way of the event. They can also use the shock treatments like Ewen Cameron to splinter the mind so
that's electro-shock. Elecricity has been used in terms of implements or devices that have been implanted
into people and also used in equipment that will throw thoughts into a peron's mind. You have
microwave towers going up vectoring in ELF waves into people's minds. So electricity is being used in a
lot of high tech ways, or electromagnetic waves are being used in a lot of high techn ways ...
They have different machines - EDOM electronic dissolution of memory where they wipe out your
memory; harmonic machines that are used which some of your speakers have probably talked about -
these machines can be used for the deprogramming work too. Electricity is also used in the flip way in
that since the human brain gives off frequencies, they go in and scan a person's personal frequencies
they are giving off. There is a prime freq - which is the primary frequency a person gives off and that
can be used to identify them from a distance. They know the different frequencies that the brain uses.
Coming at it from a different angle, if you think of the brain when it creates a particular thought, it gives
off particular frequencies. They simply created particular thoughts within a person and monitored
electrical impulses along with that thought, fed that into computers. I am simplifying what they did - but
basically that's what they have done to decode being able to read what their brain is thinking. If you
monitor the frequencies that are being given off by a person, then you can monitor what their thoughts
are. So not only can you throw particular thoughts into people's heads, but they can monitor their
thoughts too.A lot of the monitoring and instilling of thoughts, etc. are being done with implants.
Wayne Morris:
Can we just go back to electroshock. You mentioned that it is used to erase memories perhaps of the
identity of the people who are doing the programming. But don't they run the risk of erasing the
programming itself? How do they deal with that?
Fritz Springmeier:
This gets back into understanding how the programming is put in, and the level at which it is put in.
Remember we talked about dissociated states? The primary programming that is put in is put in at a
comatose level. There are different levels that you can program somebody to - if you start out with an
adult, for instance, the CIA's nomenclature is mind control Level 5. Somebody who has been given mind
control to the 5th level generally has some cover story like for Roseanne Barr - she had an automobile
accident apparently as a teenager. They take these people in and they are taken down to a comatose level
where their bodies are comatose for quite a long period of time, and the programming is put in at an
extremely deep level. At a level where your mind is regulating your heartbeat. The programming is put
in and it is nested in at an extremely deep level. When they destroy short-term memory with
electroshocking, that's not even coming close to the deep programs - that is just affecting the short-term
memory.
Wayne Morris:
Have they deliberately regulated the amount of electricity in terms of achieving a desired effect?
Fritz Springmeier:
Oh yeah. Everything is extremely scientific. This is why they had to do a lot of the horrific testing
during WWII in the concentration camps. You just don't traumatize a person indiscriminately or you will
kill them. You have to know what you are doing. They have doctors and heart monitoring equipment.
The fundamental programming is done in hospital settings, or hospital-type settings. That's why a lot of
the VA hospitals here in the USA - actually all of the VA hospitals - have been used for programming. A
lot of the other civilian hospitals have also had particular wards set up where they were able to do
programming. They are monitoring heartbeat, they know just how far to push them. When they start
going into a near-death experience they know exactly when they can electroshock them to bring them
back to life, etc. It is very skilled. They have to be very skilled in the drugs they use, how and when they
administer them, what they do when the person is under drugs. What they do is not haphazard.
Wayne Morris:
So a lot of experimentation has gone into refining these techniques?
Fritz Springmeier:
Yes. Exactly.
Wayne Morris:
Can you tell us if you know anything about the development of brain implant technology and that has
been used for mind control?
Fritz Springmeier:
There are six different types of implants. Audio implants that are used to allow the victim to hear
something. Body manipulation implants that are put in to manipulate the body in some way, perhaps to
release a hormone or to keep them from getting pregnant or to torture them, or something like that. Then
you have a visual holographic implant which will give a holographic image to the person. You have
implants that are mimics or brain link implants that if I want to directly download something to the
brain, those are very secret implants. The implants are not used across the board with all mind controlled
slaves. There are select groups that are receiving the implants and like the mimics, implants are only
going to a select group. Then you've got your torture and muscle stimulating implants. Then the one
everybody hears about - the tracking and ID implants - that everybody is so concerned about. Those are
the implants that were given to a lot of American soldiers in Desert Storm. They were told they needed
implants so that the global positioning system could keep track of them so they wouldn't get lost in the
desert.
Wayne Morris:
I am curious about the actual implants themselves in terms of how they are implanted and approximately
the size through the development of the technology?
Fritz Springmeier:
The development has gotten really high tech. You have several types of development here that need to
be brought out. One, that's called "nanobots" - nanotechnology which are tiny little robots that range
from 10-1/1000 billionth of a meter. The word "nano" means billionth - we are talking extremely
microscopic robots here that are able to replicate themselves. Molecular size robots. Possibly the
listeners have heard of the Scanning Tunnelling microscope? There are different names for it, but it is a
little device that can actually see a single atom, and actually pick up atoms and move them. That's used
to develop these nanobots which are robots that can self replicate. You have fibre optics that have been
developed and you will have some victims that if they get rid of their fibre optics - the fibre optic that is
stuck into the victim often looks like a hair.
Wayne Morris:
What typically are these fibre optic implants used for?
Fritz Springmeier:
Good question. I wish I really knew the answer for that. Fibre optic glass will carry signals, so in broad I
can say the implants are being used to transmit signals, I know that much. But I don't know all the ins
and outs of what kinds of signals are being sent. I have one victim of mind control who had been sitting
in a restaurant - it is sort of analgous to a blowgun where they have hit her with something that looks just
like a little hair and the fibre optic filament embeds itself in her skin. While she is sitting there eating,
they have shot this filament into her. Fortunately she noticed they had done this, and pulled it out. I had
female victims who had fibre optics that was disguised as hair that were put on their bodies. I don't know
the full role of the fibre optics but I know it is involved in communications. One of the more dangerous
developments are your organic bioprocessors. These are molecular computers that are made up of DNA
material. You've got DNA templates and you can also have carbon chains that are used. What they do is
- with this biomaterial that is made into a mini-computer, they will link that to a virus and viruses
oftentimes have a particular area of the body they like to migrate to. For instance a neurotropic virus will
migrate to the nervous system or a dermatropic virus will migrate to the skin, pneuomtropic virus will go
to the lungs. They attack their little organic viral processor to this virus. How do you get a virus into a
person? There are a dozen different ways, it is easy to get a virus into a victim's/host's body. So once
these viruses migrate to that area of the body they prefer, you've got a tiny little implant that is then
doing whatever function it is programmed to do. These are extremely difficult to locate.
I have noticed in victims that have the virus implants that there will be a sort of central control implant a
lot of times put in the bottom base of the neck. The central command implant will be receiving external
signals and then will in turn monitor the body suit of implants. Some of the victims of these implants
seem to have gotten some relief from being able to kill the viruses. There are some alternative medical
methods that might be suggested to the victims that could take out these bio processors.
Wayne Morris:
For some of the larger implants, have victims been able to locate and remove these kinds of implants
somehow?
Fritz Springmeier:
Yes. There have been a number of victims that have been identified - have been able to take xrays, have
been able to get other types of scanning mechanisms. There were three victims of electronic mind
control that managed to, as a group, get into an Anacoic Chamber and get results when their signals
were pinpointed as to source. They had to smuggle the paperwork out from the lab in their bras because
the lab technicians were afraid of getting into trouble. Different victims of electronic mind control have
managed to get some proof or have actually pulled some of it out. There are some doctors that actually
have some of the implants. There are a few clean surgeons that are willing to help victims. I might
mention the word Syntel here ... that's an important word for people to be familiar with in understanding
implants. Syntel is something that has been discussed by our government repeatedly in some of their
conferences. You will hear the military in some of their semi-secret conferences discussing Syntel.
That's short for synthetic telepathy which means sending to victims voices and thoughts - so these
victims of Syntel are people who are receiving voices and thoughts electronically.
Wayne Morris:
That seems to be able to be used in a couple of different ways in terms of control, but also in terms of
the situation with people claiming they are hearing voices who are often labelled schizophrenic or
psychotic ... it seems to be a way of discrediting these people.
Fritz Springmeier:
Something that was developed and used during the space program which is called biomedical telemetry -
these are transmitters and receivers located at the base of the skull which record the body functions and
the brain waves, and send it back to some computer somewhere. In fact in working with victims of
electronic mind control I can say with certainty that is what is being done is that there are computers that
are programmed with artificial intelligence that are their handlers. Rather than having a human handler
day in and out, three shifts of human handlers controlling the victim of electronic mind control, they
have computers with A.I. Then if the victim does something that throws the computer, the computer will
signal a human to come and get involved. It's been kind of interesting, the stories that victims have told
me about how they outsmarted the computers that were trying to handle them.
Wayne Morris:
I would like to talk about, and you have mentioned the name, Josef Mengele. What role did Josef
Mengele play in developing mind control?
Fritz Springmeier:
He is like the father of modern programming. Prior to Josef Mengele, the Illuminati had created MPD,
but the training of those personalities had been non-scientific. Mengele worked a lot with twins,
understanding trauma and how to use trauma. If somebody is about to die and they are rescued by their
programmer, they trauma-bond with that programmer. He learned how to trauma-bond his victims to
him. A lot of victims of mind control in Israel and other parts of the world still refer to him as "Papa",
they love him. And if the programmer knows what he's doing, he can totally trauma-bond that victim to
him to where they love the programmer.
Wayne Morris:
It's like the Stockholm Syndrome ...
Fritz Springmeier:
He was taking programming into the world of science. In January 1945, when it was very clear that the
Nazis were going to lose, the Illuminati smuggled him out into the West where he continued doing
programming. I have worked with a number of his mind control victims. One of his victims, a lady here
in this area, was actually in a concentration camp with Mengele; as a child was experimented on and
watched those horrors and had mind control done in the concentration camps. And then she was
smuggled via the Ratline actually through your country, Canada, came through the Catholic Church
collaborators, brought her through Quebec and then to Portland. And Josef Mengele continued his mind
control here in the States.
Wayne Morris:
Was Mengele involved in mind control experiments previous to WWII?
Fritz Springmeier:
I don't believe so. He was in the Illuminati. His family is Illuminati, but I don't have any knowledge of
him doing it prior to the War. Of course I don't know the whole story there. But there was some reason
as to why he was chosen for the position that he received. There may be more to the story than I know.
Wayne Morris:
It appears that a lot of experimentation was done on the victims of the Holocaust. You have mentioned
trauma experiments. What other kinds of experiments were done as they relate to mind control
technology?
Fritz Springmeier:
One of the things that Mengele was doing, and his friend Ewen Cameron continued this, was
experimentation on eye pigmentation. One might say what does this have to do with mind control? Well,
like I said earlier, this type of mind control is a total control - the mind, body and spirit of the victim is
totally controlled. It is far more extensive than people would imagine.
This type of mind control regulates the heartbeat of the victim, and a lot of other things. That's why the
suicide programming can be so powerful. He started this pigmentation experimentation which Ewen
Cameron ... by the way, Josef Mengele, when he came to the USA was known by the programming
name, Dr. Green and Ewen Cameron was known as Dr. White within the Illuminati circles. Cisco
Wheeler (whom I brought out of the Illuminati) - her father was known as Dr. Black.
Wayne Morris:
You are saying that Cameron and Mengele were associates and friends?
Fritz Springmeier:
Yeah. Cisco would occasionally see these men (Drs. Green, and White and there was a Dr. Blue) meet at
her father's house out here on the West Coast. They would come together and discuss their
programmings, methodologies, networking, talking with each other, etc. They were Program Masters
within the Illuminati. Mengele spent a lot of time travelling world-wide, not just here in the Northwest.
Cameron tended to work on the East coast and as you are familiar, the Rockefeller Foundation gave him
$40,000 back in 1943 to create the Allen Memorial Institute. Even before Mengele came to this country,
Cameron was already part of their Illuminati system.
Wayne Morris:
Did Ewen Cameron have a particular role within the development of mind control technology? I
understood he specialized in electroshock and went around the country teaching other psychiatrists on
methods of electroshock? Was that his role, or was it broader?
Fritz Springmeier:
They were all working on how to refine the thing - these were your top of the line programmers.
Mengele was really the father of it all, and he taught a lot of what he knew to Drs. White, Black and
Blue. Mengele was the one who had the opportunity to experiment on a lot of people in the
concentration camp where he did all kinds of weird and sadistic things. Cameron and the others were
both operational and experimental. If you look at how the military and science works, when they
discover something that is workable, they will take that information and they will make a new
technology out of it, but they will continue experimenting to improve on what they have done. So, at the
same time that Cameron was using electroshock to split the minds of his victims, he was also looking for
ways to refine what they were doing. Eventually they came back, and after several decades of looking at
the results of the different programming - they took the best programming scripts and the best
methodologies and upgraded their programming in general. The programming that is being done today is
far more sophisticated and far more refined than what they were working on and operationally carrying
out.
Wayne Morris:
What special significance do twins have for Mengele?
Fritz Springmeier:
If you are going to do a scientific experiment, you know you have need of a control group (subject).
How do you get a control group for experimentation on humans? You need twins, and you need
thousands of them. Mengele experimented on three thousand twins - that was one of the "benefits" of
being within the Nazi concentration camp system. As adults and children came through Auschwitz, he
had his subordinates indicate which of them were identical twins. Most of the twins that he worked on
died because he was beyond sadistic. He was also developing methods on how to bond people and he
was learning how to artificially bond people. I had mentioned earlier how Cisco had been teamed with
three other people who also escaped from the Illuminati. They were all "twinned" together, they had
artificial twinning done to them.
Wayne Morris:
Is it similar to what you were describing before about the "mirroring"?
Fritz Springmeier:
The twinning incorporates all of the 12 sciences of mind control - it is pretty sophisticated in itself.
Wayne Morris:
To your awareness, did the German Nazis use mind control operatives within WWII?
Fritz Springmeier:
Oh yes. They were using them since the early thirties. The Germans and the British both were creating
multiples for intelligence work, assassination, and so forth. Prior to the outbreak of WWII, the Nazis
were foresighted, and brought Germans to the USA who were trained multiple personalities. They
created a settlement of them in Upper New York State. That group of people continues to live there as a
group. These multiples who were brought into our country had alters that were programmed to
assassinate by sticking picks into people (key places in the body) and things like that. They created this
settlement with the idea that if Germany ever would manage to defeat the USA, that these people would
be in place to help them.
Wayne Morris:
Is there any indication that the USA government had used mind controlled operatives in WWII?
Fritz Springmeier:
I have not found any indication that they used programmed multiples, but remember that the leadership
of our country was in the hands of the Illuminati down through our history. To a large degree our
Presidents are related to each other. A lot of people don't realize how related they are. Ulysses S. Grant,
the 18th President, was related to Franklin Deleno Roosevelt. The Deleno family is an ancient
aristocratic family that originates in Venice. Ulysses Grant was related via the Deleno family. His
greatgrandmother was Susannah Deleno. Grant was also from the Collins family. In one of my
videotapes, I go into the Grant family and how they tie in with the Illuminati. One of the reasons I do
that is because Cisco is a descendant of the Ulysses Grant bloodline, a descendant of the Collins
bloodline. This was her ticket into the Illuminati.
Many of our presidents tie back into these Illuminati bloodlines, more than people realize. There were
multiple personalities in our government during WWII. But it wasn't until Mengele came over that the
Illuminati had somebody with the scientific sophistication to really get into scientifically programs. The
"benefit" we received from Mengele and Operation Paperclip was advancing our government's
knowledge of how to program innocent children.
Wayne Morris:
I would like to change the topic a little bit. How has popular culture been used for programming, and
why has it been used?
Fritz Springmeier:
There are different levels that you lock a person into and control. One is to control their milieu, their
environment. It is extremely difficult for me to talk about all of these issues. They build a person's frame
of reference from the time they were little. I ask people, "who built your frame of reference? who built
your world view?" From the time you were little, establishment groups - churches, schools, and so forth
- have been steering your education so there isn't a frame of reference for people to hang the information
I would like to give them. If you don't have a frame of reference to understand any of this information, it
is hard to break through of the control. By controlling information and what society does, they steer
society as a whole. The schools are used, entertainment, Hollywood, everything is used. The
programming a person will receive will use the items of everyday life to control them. For instance,
Cisco was taught to smoke as a little child by her father who was her programmer, her master. With
every puff, she was to think about how much he loved her, and then when she exhaled, she was also to
think a programming thought. So the very act of smoking reinforced the mind control. They will take
buildings in the area the mind control lives in and they will use those to reinforce the programming.
They will use many common items from the slaves' everyday lives to reinforce the programming
messages that have been layered.
Wayne Morris:
Maybe we can talk about one film that seems to come up in a lot of survivors' programming - that's 'The
Wizard of Oz'. How has that been used?
Fritz Springmeier:
It is one of the standard programming scripts that has been used. A lot of people don't realize that Frank
Baum actually wrote 14 Wizard of Oz books - The Tin Woodsman of Oz, The Land of Oz, Glinda of
Oz, Ozma of Oz. Actually the books were used more in the programming than the movie. If one goes
through and looks at the books, and I extracted some of the programming scripts and put them in the
Volume 2 book so people could see how Frank Baum's books, whether they were specifically written for
mind control or not, apparently fit in beautifully with creating mind control scripts. The movie then
would reinforce the scripts that were put in.
Wayne Morris:
Would these scripts be used mainly for manipulating the reality of the identities being programmed?
Fritz Springmeier:
Most of the personalities that are created within a mind controlled slave, do not live in reality. They live
in a fictional world. They work off scripts. For instance if I was going to have a particular personality
pick up drugs, they may hypnotically see the person handing them the bag of drugs as The White Rabbit
and they might see the bag as some treats or something. They live in a totally fictional world and since
these personalities only hold the body at isolated points in time, they don't have any cohesive life in
which to challenge the hypnotic programming script they have been given. They live their entire lives in
trance. These scripts are very important to use to control the personalities that live in their fictional
world.
Wayne Morris:
Can you give some other examples of popular culture that have been used for programming?
Fritz Springmeier:
Batman, Bewitched, Disney movies. One of the very improtant Disney movies was "Fantasia" and in my
recent book, "Deeper Insights" I have eleven pages where I go through minute by minute, scene by
scene, in the movie "Fantasia" and show how Fantasia was created and used to be a programming
foundation. Star Wars movies, My Fair Lady which was used in the finishing schools for slaves, Stephen
King horror movies are used, Startrek, The Love Boat has been used for the mind control of their cruise
prostitutes, E.T. - alien programming of their slaves, Alice in Wonderland.
Wayne Morris:
All of these are really prominent in our culture and I am wondering what the effect is on someone who
has been programmed if they see these movies again on television or in video rental, or in a movie
theatre?
Fritz Springmeier:
It just locks in the control and emphasizes the hopelessness. For a mind controlled slave who is living in
a whole culture that is controlled by these people, why would their mind ever think of trying to get free?
Their spirits were broken when they were children, and everywhere they look they see the control and
the programming.
Wayne Morris:
This isn't to say that some of these tv programs or films have been deliberately made with mind control
in mind, but that they have been used by the programmers?
Fritz Springmeier:
Deliberate is more accurate.
Wayne Morris:
So some of these expressions of culture have been deliberately created. Have you looked into the
backgrounds of some of the people involved in producing them?
Fritz Springmeier:
Ducktail Cartoons which is put on by Disney contains deliberate triggers for the children. Deliberate
triggers in the advertisements; deliberate messages and codes. In "Deeper Insights" I spend about fifty
pages going into Disney, who Disney was, what they did behind the scenes, what the movies are all
about. Look at "Beauty and the Beast" you will see an enchanted ____clock, or you will see the
character Doorknob - protrayed as a person. That's used in the cartoon, "Alice in Wonderland". Those
particular sections will be seen by an alter in a person's system, and the mind will be made to believe
that they were a doorknob. These are specifically, creatively put into the films for those reasons.
Wayne Morris:
Some of these alters that are created are not even animals or people, they can be inanimate objects.
Fritz Springmeier:
Only a few of the front alters of an alter system will realize that they are human.
Wayne Morris:
You have gone into in the book that I have, "The Illuminati Formula ..." quite a bit about Star Trek.
What have you learned about the technical manuals published about Star Trek?
Fritz Springmeier:
I have observed programmed multiples - some that have been untreated, and some that have been
untreated - who are totally obsessed with everything involved with Star Trek. A former deprogramming
assistant gave me information on the Star Trek programming and I could sit and confirm it by my own
observations of multiples. Over the years a number of highly technical manuals on Star Trek eequipment
and themes have been published. When you look at these manuals - the best way of explaining all the
money and time that was spent to develop these complex manuals is that they are serving a mind control
purpose. Knowing how the programming is put in, I know why they were done a certain way.
Boeing Plant in Seattle has a lot of tunnels underneath it, and some of those tunnels are used for
programming. Someone who worked at Boeing was telling me how workers would, on a normal day it
was standard for them to sneak off to go into the underground tunnels and watch Star Trek movies. I
thought that was interesting.
Wayne Morris:
Can you describe the technical manuals and the level of technical detail that they went into?
Fritz Springmeier:
They have maps of the universe. Where a map of the Milky Way could be used is when you are
splintering the mind of a victim and you are looking for some kind of a pattern to restructure it, you
would use something like a galaxy map to recreate their mind. You have star clusters, planets. When you
wanted to have a whole group of alters, personalities that would only relate to themselves, you could put
them on one planet and the only way alters could communicate from one "planet" to another would be
through some type of "beam me up" type of thing. When you were being "beamed", you would actually
be dissociated and going into trance.
And you have different locomotion devices that are built into the system which are actually methods for
the mind going into dissociation. When you are electroshocking someone, and a flash of light is hitting
them at the same time you are applying electroshock, you can tell the person that they are travelling
through space, or who knows what, different scripts can be built in.
The technical manuals will have section indexes and when they structure the mind controlled slaves they
build sections and those sections are coded and you will find the technical manuals have number codes,
colour codes which is another aspect of the mind control all the way through. I talked about the
13x13x13 grid earlier within Cisco's system. If you want to add another dimension to your cube, then
you add colour coding for certain alters.
Each of your alters typically will receive a colour code and that ties back in to computers that are built
within their minds. These computers are built by taking dissociated parts of the mind and making them
into a computer - computers that control each section - and then those computers are in turn controlled
by deeper computers. It's very complex but you can certainly see when you look at the technical manuals
put together for the Star Trek theme that they dovetail perfectly with what the programming needs are.
Wayne Morris:
These things are purportedly just paraphenalia items for a very limited market of hardcore Trekkies - the
price tag seems to be incongruent with the amount of work that has gone into making them.
Fritz Springmeier:
Exactly. That was my thought. My Dad was an engineer and I have looked over a lot of drafting
projects. I worked for the Federal Highway Administration for a while so I know the type of engineering
work that would go into building a highway, and I am just amazed at the technical detail, engineering,
graphics and everything that goes into these technical manuals for something that is a "fiction", a
movie ... we are not talking about something that is real life.
Wayne Morris:
Since we are talking about movies, I would like to ask you what has Hollywood's involvement been in
mind control slavery?
Fritz Springmeier:
The Illuminati and the Mob have controlled Hollywood. Another aspect of this is that a lot of your
slaves are actors, eg. Roseanne Barr, who I mentioned earlier; Madonna; Marilyn Monroe; each of these
women was a programmed multiple. You have a lot of slaves who are acting for them. One of the
benefits of having programmed multiples is the way their minds have been structured. Some of them are
very good at memorizing scripts or getting into fictional roles. As I mentioned earlier, some of the
movies, like "Fantasia" - Disneyland itself was a programming centre. It was more than their just putting
out movies that were for programming, but they actually created a lot of these movies with the codes.
Another one I didn't mention is "I Dream of Jeannie" - which is the Delta alter "Jeannie" programming
with the trigger "your wish is my command."
Another aspect of Hollywood that comes in here - there are fictional movies, at least they purport to be
fictional movies, which are actually showing, amazingly, top secret Illuminati ceremonies and Illuminati
history, methods. It's really blown me away to watch some of these things. "Hellraiser 3" shows
gatekeepers. Watch "Bell, Book and Candle" or "Curse of the Voodoo". Not only do they show
Illuminati ceremonies, but some of these movies actually show the mind control. I would recommend
that the listeners, if they wanted to learn more, watch the Charles Bronson movie, "Telethon", or you
could watch "The Manchurian Candidate" or "Videodrome", "Labyrinth." I go into explaining how
"Labyrinth" is a programming script in the Volume 2 book. "Transfer 2", "Attack of the Robots",
"Attack of the Puppet People" ... we could go on and on. Jane Fonda's "The Point of No Return" - that
connects in with the OTO. That's one of the occult fronts of the very high-up, powerful organizations
involved with the Illuminati.
Wayne Morris:
What do you think is the purpose of having mind control slaves in the Hollywood industry in terms of
the impact on the public? What are they trying to accomplish with these films, and are they manipulating
these actors in some way to have some effect on the public?
Fritz Springmeier:
There is manipulation in many different ways. I guess one thing I could say that builds upon your last
question and also answers your current question, is the late Anton Lavey, for instance, who was the head
of the Church of Satan. He was a mind control programmer and he was very close with Hollywood. By
using him in Hollywood as an advisor to movies, and in other ways (he tied in with some underground
film-making too) it gave him legitimacy. Another person who also connected in some with Hollywood,
who was also connected with Anton Lavey, was Michael Aquino who connected in with military
intelligence. He was another programmer and he was in charge of another Satanic organization, The
Temple of Set.
Wayne Morris:
Which is an offshoot of Anton Lavey's Church of Satan ...
Fritz Springmeier:
Aquino was one of Lavey's henchmen until he formed his own organization.
Wayne Morris:
And Michael Aquino has been implicated in the Presidio daycare child abuse scandal as well ...
Fritz Springmeier:
A very disgusting person like the rest of these programmers. Another tie-in here with Hollywood is
Kenneth Anger who was a member of Lavey's group, and he was a film-maker. He is also someone who
was infatuated with Aleister Crowley. Kenneth Anger danced with Shirley Temple when he was a child,
and Shirley Temple as you know ties in with Walt Disney, and with the mind control too. I believe she
was a victim. There is something they do to the children, it's called brainstem scarring and when they
scar the brainstem they create photographic memory. That's a whole other subject, but I believe that this
child prodigy, Shirley Temple, was also one of their mind control victims. That was prior to WWII. She
was, I believe, a multiple.
Wayne Morris:
I wonder if you could just explain briefly how you think that works in terms of damaging the brainstem
and how that would affect these memory abilities ...
Fritz Springmeier:
An analogy would be like when somebody does weightlifting - the idea of lifting weights is that you are
destroying the muscles and the body overcompensates for the destruction and builds the muscles bigger
next time around, like callouses. You damage your skin until your body overcompensates and creates
callouses. When your brainstem is electronically scarred, the body overcompensates and rebuilds the
brainstem in such a way that you have a photographic memory. So then if you scar somebody's
brainstem to start with, and then you traumatize them so the mind splits into multiple personalities, each
of those personalities generally takes on the characteristics of its predecessor and has a photographic
memory.
Wayne Morris:
It seems that would be very useful in terms of some of the ways operatives are utilized, eg. for
espionage. Was that a common technique used in the conditioning, scarring of the brainstem,
photographic memory?
Fritz Springmeier:
It is now. During the 1930's when they were creating multiples, they knew that trauma itself helped
mental abilities, so there were a lot of just scientists, who weren't part of the Illuminati who were
traumatizing their kids to improve their thinking abilities. It's really a warped way of thinking, but there
is some efficacy to the methodology.
Wayne Morris:
Just to jump back to the culture industries, and how they have been involved, how has the music
industry been involved in mind control?
Fritz Springmeier:
Good question. That takes us back to WWII when first the UK, then Canada, then our country was
totally mobilized for the war effort, and they mobilized Hollywood for the war effort. The US military
hired all these entertainers for the USO shows - it was placed under the Special Services Division of the
Army. They brought in people like Bob Hope who was working for MI-6. Bob Hope is very skilled with
mind control. You had earlier asked me if the USA was using programmed multiples? The USA was
using mind control during WWII, but not the type of programmed multiplicity that Mengele developed.
But during WWII, they were using the USO magicians to pass coded messages to the troops. To say and
do things for their intelligence work. What group of people can move from one military unit to another
without causing suspicion of the enemy? Entertainers. They used them for US and British intelligence.
Wayne Morris:
So they would be used to pass messages to people in the know ...
Fritz Springmeier:
Right. Bob Hope was an intelligence operative for British Intelligence. He was used in the USO a lot.
The USO created at least 200 bands. A lot of the bands we know of now Guy Lombardo, Lawrence
Welk, Sam Donahue - these were all created in the USO program. When the USO program ceased at the
end of WWII, you had this whole music industry that was basically created by the Intelligence
organizations, and it was heavily salted with their intelligence operatives. It was a natural thing for the
CIA - created out of the OSS - and the NSA to continue to use the music industry as it had been used in
WWII for intelligence purposes. Our entire music industry here in the USA is actually an intelligence
front for the Illuminati.
Wayne Morris:
Hmm. I know you have written specifically about the country music industry. I wonder if you could talk
about that industry's involvement.
Fritz Springmeier:
I am not trying to single out country and western music. Some people might think Fritz has it in for
country and western music - no, I actually enjoy a lot of that music, so I don't have anything against that
particular brand, or that particular industry. I mean, the rock and roll music industry is also heavily used
and ties in with the mind control too. A lot of the songs in country and western music are deliberately
written for programming, but the songs evoke thoughts of god, country - so you have your front there.
You have to understand how these people work. They try to play upon things that we get kneejerk
reactions to. If I sing a song about god, how can anybody accuse me of being bad? If I sing patriotic
songs, how can anyone accuse me of not being a good person? I sing about god and country ...
You look at the front they create, and then they do what they want to behind that front. The whole C&W
industry is just part and parcel of the mind control, and of drug running. Because these C&W singers
travel from one city to another, they are the perfect vehicles for moving drugs. They are a very important
part of the Illuminati drug running.
Wayne Morris:
In your book you have alleged a lot of the leading C&W figures are involved in this activity?
Fritz Springmeier:
Yeah, some of them are victims of the mind control; some are abusers of the mind control; some of them
are programmers. One of the worst mind control programmers within the industry is Jerry Lee Lewis.
He has a very bad reputation. He is infamous among victims of mind control for being an extremely
sadistic programmer. When slaves manage to escape, they are very often sent to Jerry Lee Lewis and his
cousin, a minister, and also ties in with this as a programmed multiple.
Wayne Morris:
Do you feel that the use of popular culture and these entertainment industries serves another purpose in
terms of preconditioning society as a whole, or manipulating social beliefs?
Fritz Springmeier:
Oh yeah, definitely. The whole long-range goal of this, and when I say long-range, it's not going to take
them long to get us there at the rate they are going - the end goal of all of this is to eventually create an
entire planet of mind controlled slaves that can be controlled by one super computer. They are
manipulating our thoughts and our attitudes, and steering us, herding us (they consider us animals - the
Illuminati consider themselves god, god men and us to be the animals) they are herding us in the
direction they want to us to go. So yeah, the music is definitely playing a role in dehumanizing us,
conditioning us, as well as a lot of mind control triggers and messages are passed via the singing. In the
Volume 2 book and in the "Deeper Insights" book, I spend quite a few pages going into the codes and
the triggers, and I spend several pages explaining what the different songs that are played over the radio
- how they are used in triggering mind controlled slaves.
Wayne Morris:
Again, I guess it's part of having a culture permeated with the kind of triggers that just reinforces the
programming for the victims.
Fritz Springmeier:
Right. And if they are going to have their programmed slaves go to a ritual, there is one song, "A
Heartache Tonight", which will be played over some radio stations. And if I am a mind controlled slave,
and it's Friday night, and I hear that song over the radio, I may be programmed to switch alters and go to
a pre-arranged location where I am picked up or whatever, and participate in a satanic sabbat. They are
able to use the music industry in a whole number of ways.
Wayne Morris:
To you knowledge, Fritz, what groups are involved currently in using mind control slavery?
Fritz Springmeier:
Currently, mind controlled slaves are used by intelligence organizations; occult groups; military groups;
big and small religious groups. Many various criminals who are in each of these groups network
together and in fact, their own word to describe themselves is "The Network". If we are a little bit more
specific about what groups - I was giving you the broad, general categories. Examples within the US
military are Delta Forces, First Earth Battalion, are mind controlled units. Then you've got mind
controlled slaves scattered throughout all of the regular branches. Within your intelligence organizations
some of the big offenders are MI-6 and of course their P-4 section, and Naval Intelligence which is ONI.
A lot of government organizations like Bureau of Narcotics, FBI, NASA. When we look at what kind of
occult groups are using this trauma-based total mind control you will see the KKK, Neo-Nazis, OTO.
You will see groups like the Freemasons and the Oddfellows. Then you get more hardcore occult groups
like the Church of Satan, the Children of Lucifer, Society of the Dark Lily. Religions? You've got your
smaller religions like this group that was so interested in Halle Boppe to the extent they committed
suicide. Small groups like that. According to the information I have, David Koresh and his leaders were
mind controlled slaves who were conducting group control methods over their Branch Davidian group.
You've got your small groups like this clear up to your large groups like the Catholic Church, the
Mormon Church, and the Charismatic Movement.
Wayne Morris:
Some of the branches of the military you mentioned - the Delta Forces and the First Earth Battalion - are
you saying that all of the people involved in these forces are mind controlled?
Fritz Springmeier:
Within Delta Forces, 100% of them are. Within the First Earth Battalion, from what I understand, that
could also be 100% of its units are under mind control. Within the Army - the Army has special task
groups that - for instance - I am sorry to say, but unfortunately it's true - the US Army has select squads
of assassins that travel even around the USA and eliminate people. From my inside information on that,
these squads are not entirely made up of mind controlled slaves - they have a variety of control methods
over these types. I guess what I am saying is, that although you may find a smattering of mind controlled
slaves used in various branches of the military, those first two that I mentioned are the only ones that I
know of that are entirely made up of mind controlled robots.
Wayne Morris:
These military operatives - would they have been subjected to the trauma-based conditioning from
childhood?
Fritz Springmeier:
Yes. That's what I am talking about.
Wayne Morris:
How typically do people who end up in these forces get introduced to the mind control? Through their
families?
Fritz Springmeier:
Well these are victims of mind control that would have been placed under mind control in childhood.
Wayne Morris:
Typically would they be from military families?
Fritz Springmeier:
They would be from a wide variety. If you have looked at the way the military does things, there is a lot
of what they call "military brats" - the children of military men that then are put into positions of
responsibility.
Wayne Morris:
To your awareness, has the corporate world used mind control in any way?
Fritz Springmeier:
Yes, the corporate world does use mind controlled slaves. Several examples that pop immediately into
my mind are ARCO - some of your listeners may have read "Angels don't play this HAARP" by Begich
and Manning. If they haven't, I recommend the book. You will read quite a bit about ARCO which did
all kinds of HAARP research. ARCO did a lot of research and the branch of ARCO which is APPI held
some of the patents. They also worked with E Systems which held some of the patents for HAARP
research. ARCO is one of the worst offenders, at least in terms of what I have discovered from victims
of mind control that I have been in contact with. They are one of the worst, so that probably explains
why they were given a highly sensitive project like HAARP.
Another company that was given sensitive work to do was Gunderson. Here in Portland Gunderson Steel
has been making a large number of special order rail cars which have shackles and cupolas for guards. It
is a very sensitive secret project which has been farmed out to 11 major railcar producers. Gunderson is
one of these.
And these railcars are to be used to transport civilians to all these already-built concentration camps
across America. Gunderson is another one of these companies that uses mind control slaves. I am
speaking with firsthand knowledge about that because I have spoken with some of the programmed
multiples that work at Gunderson.
Another corporation that comes to mind is a big, corporate conglomerate - Disney, Capital Cities, ABC -
the three of them went together and made themselves a nice, big corporate conglomerate. They produce
porn and they do some other activities with the programmed multiple slaves.
Wayne Morris:
Just getting back to ARCO, we are actually going to be interviewing Nick Begitch in a future show and
talking about the HAARP project in particular. I understand there are mind control elements to that
project in particular. The information you found is in addition to that - they have been using mind
controlled, trauma-based conditioned slaves as well?
Fritz Springmeier
Right. His book doesn't talk about mind controlled slaves being used by ARCO - his book is about this
technology that they are installing in Alaska. It is a Star Wars-type technology that works in the
atmosphere and manipulates things electronically - electromagnetic radiation.
Wayne Morris:
Yeah. It's a huge antenna array that shoots high frequency energy into the ionosphere.
Fritz Springmeier
Besides communicating with satellites, it can actually change the weather. It can also manipulate the
way people think in a geographical area that has been hit by its electromagnetic radiation.
Wayne Morris:
One of the side effects apparently is extra low frequency energy that is reflected back to earth which is
the frequency that our brain operates on.
What typically would these companies use mind controlled slaves for?
Fritz Springmeier
Sensitive projects that have to be kept under wraps by the New World Order. The production of railcars
to haul civilians to concentration camps. Our government has kept the concentration camp project pretty
low key.
Wayne Morris:
So these people would be used to work on these projects and the company ensuring that they don't talk
about it outside.
You spoke of the Illuminati being an extension of mystery religions and I wonder if you could tell our
listeners what were the mystery religions, and what was their role in history?
Fritz Springmeier
You have asked two questions. One of the people who is well worth quoting is Manley P. Hall. He is
both a Grand Master Illuminati and a Grand Master in the Freemasons. In his book, "The Secret
Teachings of All Ages", he said that the mystery religions were the channel through which the light to
mankind was disseminated. (p.29) The mystery religions claimed to the ancient world that they had
revelation knowledge that would help enlighten and save people. They claimed that by joining them, and
then going through the secret rituals, that you would elevate yourself. They claimed that you would
become divine, or that you would reunite with your divine self if you went through the rituals and got to
the highest, deepest levels of their secrets. That's what they were telling people on the outside. There are
a lot of different ways to look at a phenomenon and I want to bring in a couple of other angles. First,
Swinbourne Kleimer, a high ranking Freemason and Rosicrucian leader, said that there was a secret
body that ruled and controlled all the various ancient mystery religions in the ancient world - Europe,
Egypt, Babylon, clear over to Indian. You can read this claim in his book "Ancient Mystic Oriental
Freemasonry" on p. 84-85. I can agree with him. What he is referring to here - the one secret body that
will control all the various mystery religions - was what we call today The Illuminati. The Illuminati is
the continuation of that secret controlling body. Freemasonry is the outer symbology of the ancient
mystery religions, but if you want the hardcore rituals of the ancient mystery religions, those are the
ones that are performed by the Illuminati.
And what was their role in history? They played an exceptionally role in history. If one thinks about the
power that kings have, who are kings dependent on? Kings must work through other people and they are
dependent on their advisors, and their financiers. You can't have a king going off and making a war
unless he has money, so he is depending on those financiers. The financiers are dependent on trade and
production of goods. The mystery religions, or secret societies, had so much power because they
controlled the trade guilds with the trade secrets on how to produce the different goods. For instance the
art of making armour, or the art of making a long bow, or the art of making a venetian war ship, or
getting closer to home - the roots of Freemasonry go back to the masonic builders guild and the
architectural knowledge to design and build a cathedral was controlled by trade guilds which were
controlled by these mystery religions, these secret societies. You could be the king of a country, but you
were still under the control of these mystery religions and secret societies. The man who supposedly
converted the Roman Empire over to Christianity was the head of the Mithra mystery religion. They
have played an extremely powerful and important part in history. They have controlled the priesthood
and the trade guilds. But also there are a couple of ways they have played a continuous role in history in
that they have guided human endeavours because the Illuminati, the mystery religions, have what they
call "The Keepers of the Great Plans". That's not just my own opinion. Manley P. Hall, the Illuminati
kingpin, in at least one of his books, goes into how the mystery religions of the great plan to bring in this
great New World Order.
Wayne Morris:
What was this great plan?
Fritz Springmeier
Part of it goes back to the idea of the Golden Age of the Millenium. That's an important concept for me
to talk about. I will be stepping on a few people's toes here. Your Christians are really unaware of where
their concept of the millenium came from. They think that it comes from the bible, but if they go back
historically they will see that William Miller, who started the Adventist movement and started talking
about millenium, was a high ranking Freemason. He predicted that Christ would return in 1844. The
question is, did Christ return in 1844? Most people, because we have a limited perspective on things,
would say no, he didn't. But there was a man called Nabob who appeared in Persia, and he said I am
Christ, and he started the Bahai religion. He fulfilled William Miller's prophecy. The Freemasons were
the ones who introduced the Bahai religion to America, and they did it through the Chicago Masonic
Temple around the turn of the century. The Bahai religion is committed to a one world government, a
new world order, and a one world religion. There was this Masonic Oriental Order of the Magi and they
were the hardcore group within the Chicago Masonic Temple who started the Bahai religion in this
country. These are the kinds of things that I tried to expose so that people see how this all interconnects.
A very brilliant man, James H. Billington, who was the librarian of the Library of Congress, wrote a
book, "Fire in the Minds of Men" and the Illuminati didn't realize what he was doing. He kind of
blindsided. He was a member of the Council of Foreign Relations so he as one of them. They thought he
was one of theirs. This book goes through and it talks about where the word "revolution" came from - it
came from the occult societies. The word "revolution" which we use today to mean "armed rebellion"
didn't have that meaning in the beginning. The way it began to be used to mean armed rebellion to
overthrow the old order and establish something new, was because occult societies, like the Freemasons
who had been behind all of the revolutions of modern history from the American Revolution on - have
all been created by the Freemasons and the Illuminati. Billington goes back in and traces how all the
revolutions were started by this occult elite. The term revolution came from the occult idea that we were
going to revolve ourselves back to the Golden Age. There is this great quest for the Golden Age, this
millenialism. That's what communism is about. If you look at the early founders of communism - they
were trying to revolve us back through revolution to the Golden Age that had been lost.
Wayne Morris:
What was their idea of what a Golden Age consisted of?
Fritz Springmeier
Socialized communistic type society. This is why when you read masonic prophets, like H.G. Wells who
wrote a number of books on how the New World Order could be brought about, the Fabian Socialists,
etc. who have all these detailed plans - it's always for a socialistic, communistic type utopia.
Wayne Morris:
But with a fascist leadership it seems ...
Fritz Springmeier
Yes. (laughs) On the surface it sounds really hunky-dory. It sounds really great. But it ends up more like
Animal Farm and George Orwell.
Wayne Morris:
I would also like to talk about what the relation of intelligence groups such as the CIA, the DIA and the
MI-6 is to the Illuminati.
Fritz Springmeier
There's a very close relationship. You will notice with MI-6, in the first few decades of their existence
(they came into existence at the turn of the century), they hired only women who came from elite
Illuminati families. If you were a female working with MI-6, you were referred to as Queenie, and they
really were Illuminati queens. We go back and look at who set up these organizations, who runs these
organizations. Look at the CIA for instance. People that understand what the Council for Foreign
Relations is all about and how that's an Illuminati front will understand better what I am talking about.
You look at Dulles, McCone, Helms, Slesinger, Bush, Turner, Casey - you just go down your list of
directors of the CIA - and they were members of the Council for Foreign Relations. Not only that, but
they were members of other organizations that are Illuminati fronts. Turner was a Rhodes scholar which
is an entry point for Illuminati. The Astors helped found the Rhodes scholars. Casey and McCone - both
of whom were Knights of Malta. Look at the membership of the Knights of Malta, 50% black nobility. I
am talking about black in the context of the black (guelph) European aristocratic bloodlines - the black
(.....s) were a very powerful bloodline that have controlled Europe for many centuries. General Walter
Bedell Smith was head of the CIA - from 1950 to 1953 - working in US intelligence - he was one of the
co-founders of the Bilderbergers. Prince Bernhardt (Illuminati) was the Chairman of the original
Bilderbergers. One of the late Chairs was Peter Rupert (Lord Carrington) was Order of St. John which is
the Protestant version of the Knights of Malta. He was a director of a number of the Rothschild
organizations like the Rio Tinto Zinc Corporation. He was a member of the Order of the Garter, which is
very significant; and a member of the Order of Osiris. The Order of the Garter is one of the primary
organizations which was given the responsibility to be in charge of the plans to bring in the New World
Order by the Illuminati, and to give continuity from one generation to another. The Order of the Garter
is extremely powerful. Your coat of arms etc. is all controlled by the Order of the Garter which is set up
in covens of 13, groups of 13. If you have ever looked at heraldry you will know how important this is.
The Bilderbergers is also set up in groups of 13, the inner committee is 13.
Wayne Morris:
Henry Kissinger is a prominent member of the Bilderbergers. What is his involvement in that group, to
your awareness?
Fritz Springmeier
I don't know that he is a member himself, but he is a member of MI-6, he has been a member of P2
Freemasonry, involved with a lot of things. He is a big player for them to implement their agenda. I do
not know whether he's an actual member within the Illuminati or not, but he has sure been a big player.
In fact one day I listened to Henry Kissinger speaking and he said, "We will get a New World Order. We
may not get it in our generation, but if we do not get it in our generation, we will get it in the next
generation." In other words they are just going to keep trying. That's what the Order of the Garter has
been assigned to do. When we look at these different intelligence groups, like the KGB and the CIA, we
think we are looking at two groups that are fighting a covert war against each other. However that is
only what we are meant to see.
There is a recent book by a Colonel Corsell, "Day After Roswell". His book is eye opening in many
ways, in fact it may be hard to get after a little while. There seems to be a movement to suppress it. In
his book he talks about how the CIA and the KGB are essentially one organization, and this was back in
the 50's. He was tailed by CIA agents even though he was a Colonel in the US Army - he's got the CIA
spying on him, trying to find out what he is doing. He has to keep secrets from the CIA. I had an
acquaintance whose father is high up in the CIA and he said when he was a teenager, one day his father
came by and dropped a bombshell on him in that he couldn't even understand what his father was talking
about. His father said out of the blue that the Cold War was a hoax. This teenager who had bought into
the appearances the common people are supposed to accept was really confused. He didn't understand.
He said it took him years to understand what his father was secretly referring to.
We see these different groups and they appear to be different teams. But it's sort of like coming up to a
football field and seeing two teams playing each other - you can't automatically assume they are not
from the same school. It may be a scrimmage or an intervarsity game. You will see the hidden hand of
the Illuminati in the creation of both the CIA and the KGB. In MI-6 you will see Lord Victor Rothschild
running things; Admiral Sir Hugh Sinclair - the Sinclairs are one of these families. MI-5, which is
internal security for Britain - their first Director General for many years was Major General Sir Vern
Keele. He was a Freemason, and a number of other Director Generals of MI-5 have also been
Freemasons and also have been tied to these other organizations. The Director of MI-5 during WWII
was Knights of Grace of St. John. You could go on and on showing the overlapping connections.
If you look at Allen Dulles who was the Director of the CIA from 1953-1961 you will see his role with
Hitler prior to WWII, working with the international financiers - the bankers of these Illuminati
kingpins. You will see his connections to the elite.
Wayne Morris:
And certainly the information about the CIA facilitating the flight of Nazi war criminals to North
America - Dulles was involved in that.
Fritz Springmeier
Dulles was the man the Illuminati used to inform Hitler that the financiers would support him in his bid
for power. He was the guy who brought the good news to Hitler ... hey, you can go for it, we will
finance you.
Wayne Morris:
I would like to talk about another CIA director who was actually recently in Toronto accepting an
Honorary Degree at the University of Toronto - George Bush. I wondered if you could talk about his
affiliation with Skull & Bones ...
Fritz Springmeier
Skull & Bones is an entry point into the Illuminati. Researchers have noticed the Skull & Bones, but
there are a lot of other organizations which are entry points. Rhodes Scholars, a group in Oxford, there
are number of different fraternal organizations. Skull & Bones is not the only one - but that's the one
George Bush joined. There is also Scroll & Key, Rezilius, and some other fraternal organizations. One
of the things George Bush did in his initiation ceremony for Skull & Bones was to lie in manure and
recount all of his sexual exploits.
Wayne Morris:
I understand that's an initiation ritual for all members of Skull & Bones.
Fritz Springmeier
Right.
Wayne Morris:
You mentioned at the top of the interview that George Bush was related to some royal family - is that
the House of Windsor?
Fritz Springmeier:
He is a distant relative of Prince Charles and Queen Elizabeth. It's a distant relationship.
Wayne Morris:
In your opinion, what has George Bush's role been in attempting to implement a global government?
Fritz Springmeier:
He's been a criminal, and he has provided leadership for criminal activity. He's been involved with
creating wars, with drug running, with pornography and mind control.
Wayne Morris:
Are you aware of any information that George Bush is also a pedophile?
Fritz Springmeier:
Oh yeah. Cathy O'Brien for instance, who I have visited with, her daughter spent time with George Bush
and other people that are familiar with the mind control and what's going on have also said that the man
was a pedophile.
Wayne Morris:
Do you think that people in groups trying to bring about global control are planning a take-over attempt
at a certain point in time, or do you think they will continue this New World Order more gradually as
they have been doing through expanded economic blocks and so forth?
Fritz Springmeier:
It's a combination of gradual, spiced with some cataclysmic events. From the vantage point of being a
planner, and having the actual plans and details, you would see that things are being implemented on a
continuous basis. For instance, I have mentioned previously that the Panama Canal and Suez Canal were
planned by the Illuminati back around 1800 if not before. Those were things they wanted to implement
on the way to a New World Order.
When you see cataclysmic events occur, let's say there is a nuclear exchange or aliens all of a sudden
arrive, they seem cataclysmic and instantaneous to those of us who are the common people. But the
planning for these events has gone on for a long time. So yes, it will be gradual, if you are looking at the
implementation of these plans - but the appearance of some of these things will be rather cataclysmic. In
order to bring in the New World Order as they would like to implement it, they want us to ask them to
bring in what they want. So for instance in WWII when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbour, the
Americans wanted to give away their freedoms to make their government more powerful. They will be
implementing things that will cause us to ask us to do what they want to do.
Wayne Morris:
What kinds of scenarios are possible?
Fritz Springmeier:
For instance in Australia - where this madman went in and he gunned down a lot of innocent people -
children and families - boy - right after that they ramrodded through gun legislation and approximately
half a million weapons were turned in without a fight by the Australians because of this horrendous
massacre that took place. The same things are going to happen in this country and on this surface it's
going to appear like this is just a madman who flipped out and he gunned down a lot of people. But from
"their" vantage-point, they have spent a lot of years planning and programming.
Wayne Morris:
And one could argue that it has already started to happen in terms of things like the Oklahoma City
bombing and bringing in the counter-terrorism bill immediately after.
Fritz Springmeier:
Yes. Exactly. I would say yes to both aspects. It will be both gradual and it will have a cataclysmic
impact.
Wayne Morris:
How, in your opinion, could mind control be used in one of these scenarios to create cataclysmic events?
Fritz Springmeier:
I use the term "New World Order" but you could also use "World Order" because the same people who
are bringing in the new world order have actually been controlling the world all along. It's really not
"new" at all - it's just going into a more intense phase where the control is going to be more intense, and
the mind control is going to be more pervasive and powerful. These people have been controlling things
from behind the scenes for a long time. We go back and look at the power the British Empire had and
the power that the French Empire had - and you ask yourself, well who was running the British Empire
and the French Empire? And you see the same people, the same families. I had mentioned earlier how
many American presidents were related and how we have really been controlled by these oligarchal
families here in the USA.
Wayne Morris:
How would mind control possibly be used in a take-over scenario?
Fritz Springmeier:
One way that it could be used is if people look at the Charles Bronson movie, "Telethon", you will see
the end result of this mind control. A housewife is called, given a fairy-tale ditty, and she goes out and
blows up a military installation. There are a lot of people with programming to do acts of sabotage and
assassination.
There are a lot of things that have to be accomplished. The weakest link in the chain is going to bust -
and in order to implement all of these things from behind the scenes - you have to have mind controlled
people salted in at all different levels to ensure that nobody reveals the secrets, that people do the job
they are supposed to, that people forget the things they are supposed to forget. For instance banking - in
the last few years a lot of banks have gone bankrupt. That has been very quietly covered over by bank
mergers. A bank goes belly-up - they will bring in a bigger bank and swallow it up and call it a merger
instead of a bankruptcy. How do they keep these things secret? I know some programmed multiples
personally working in the banking system, and I do not know the full extent of what these people are
used for, I can only speculate. They are definitely using mind controlled slaves within the banking
system to hide their manipulations.
Wayne Morris:
Quite a number of victims of mind control have spoken about end-times programming. What can you
tell us about that?
Fritz Springmeier:
The end-times programming refers to programming geared to bringing in New World Order and the
reign of the anti-christ. It has a lot of colour programming - the list of people who are to be dealt with
includes a red list comprised of those who are anti-new-world-order opposition leaders who are to be
executed about two weeks before martial law. The blue list are people who are against what is being
done, but they are going to attempt to program them, arrest them to see if they can correct their thinking.
Probably a lot of them will be killed in the midst of reprogramming. The final list, the yellow list, is
people who will be rounded up for re-education camps after martial law.
In the programming there are yellow flags at half-mast; yellow dog on run; blue fish at home; and I
know this from work with mind control victims. Colour codes are used because they will be using a lot
of mind control slaves, including foreign troops (eg. Russians) to implement these things. It is easier to
use colour coding. Things will be implemented with activation codes which also use colour codes, eg.
blue ray, red ray, purple ray, green ray. Those will go to team leaders. If the listeners are familiar with
Amway they understand uplines and downlines - a team leader can have perhaps four people under him -
he calls them - each of them calls four people. Those will be colour-coded. Each one of the eg. four will
have a colour (blue ray, red ray, purple ray, green ray). And then some of the sites are colour coded.
Internally within the minds of the slaves, some of them have internal crystals -- these crystals are timed
-- they could also be rocks -- they are timed to explode or release certain programming at a certain point
in time. These crystals will have colour codes as well.
If the therapist begins getting into end-time programming, that's one of the things they are going to
notice. They are also going to notice mountain-tops are used quite a lot for meeting place or significant
places. A lot of international cooperation is involved in their plans and programming. Common news
events are often-times triggers -- eg. Lady Diana dying -- Princess Di's death caused certain mind control
slaves to trigger off that news event.
End times programming also involves (because of the ushering in of the reign of the anti-christ)
demonology involved -- the Demon "Purson" involved with the programming. His job is the Revelator
of the anti-christ. He will know a victim's system. You will see "Apollo" -- Son of Apollo is the anti-
christ -- so Apollo is the father of the anti-christ. You will see Escolapius (sp) - he is the Demon of
healing. You see a lot of healing going on in the Charismatic Movement -- some of the ministers in this
Movement are actually satanists and I know from eye witnesses that in secret they carry out satanic
rituals where they attempt to gain the power of Escolapius which is a demonic healing power. When
they go into these churches they use mind control and this demonic healing power to heal Christians and
then tell people "God healed you". They don't state to them which god ...
Another aspect that is characteristic to the end-times programming is the involvement of the aliens. A lot
of alien programming, plans with aliens, and a whole series of programming categories related to
catastrophes. I am now speaking to therapists - when you get into the part of the system that is involved
with end-times catastrophes, you will get into working with _____ alters. And another area involves a
lot of computer control of people. And I am still only in the beginning of understanding all of this. There
is an actual computer at 666 Connecticut Avenue in Washington, DC which is called the Janus 2
computer. When victims start spewing out their programming they start talking about the Janus coding
which has something to do with tracking and reprogramming, and ties in with computers.
Then there is the Ambassador coding (sub-codes include setting fires; suicide; doing an act of violence
against somebody). Emperor coding. Morse coding.
Wayne Morris:
What in a general sense would they be programmed to do.
Fritz Springmeier:
We are not talking about just running drugs or prostitution -- we are talking about control of society as a
whole. One of the scarier options they have is to bring in a mock alien invasion. They will have flying
saucers with aliens arrive. Because they control so many different aspects of society, even though a
number of people like myself would say "beware of this, beware of that" we would be drowned out by
this orchestra of people in different sectors of society (congressmen, newsmen, religious leaders) saying
whatever the plan is for them to say. Of course there will be controlled opposition. There will be a few
people saying, "I distrust these aliens, or this agenda, or what the government is doing" but they will be
controlled opposition who will gather all the opposition to what they want to do and raise the hopes of
people who are against this hidden agenda but will not actually carry through and stop it.
Wayne Morris:
Do you believe that the governments of the world have UFO technology that they have been
developing? This alien invasion would be a staged invasion using their own military technology ...
Fritz Springmeier:
There is no question in my mind about it. Another agenda they have is to destroy faith in national
governments. That has been divided into thousands of different projects. Jehovah's Witnesses who go
door to door. If you look at their literature, it works very hard at destroying faith in nationalism. But who
would suspect the Jehovah's Witnesses? Their Watchtower Society is actually an Illuminati front. In fact
one of their members accidentally stumbled on to a big clue to this - he noticed there were thousands of
hidden occult symbols in the Watchtower artwork. There would be a picture of a waterfall in a
Watchtower magazine, but when you looked at it really closely you would realize it was a skull. It's like
Currier & Ives used to have these hidden pictures - look at a tree and see other pictures. They have these
occult messages hidden in the Watchtower literature - like a goat leading a herd of sheep, things like
that. Or a thief running off with occult jewellery with an all-seeing eye and things like this.
They have a lot of hidden messages. Who would think of Jehovah's Witnesses being used? They use J-
W's to access some of their slaves. Who can go door-to-door without suspicion? I brought Cisco out of
the Illuminati. It doesn't mean I am the only person who ever helped her, but these J-W's will come to
the door, and I will say, "No, don't answer the door." Her natural inclination would have been, "oh they
are just Jehovah Witnesses." Interestingly the same couple who came to our door, to try to talk to Cisco,
showed up the next day clear across town at another victim's doorstep - very strange. I know the Jehovah
Witnesses from the inside and how they map out their territories and how they go door to door - and
what happened was not normal. You had to have a team of people who were trying to access slaves that
were getting free, and their cover was to be Jehovah Witnesses.
It sounds like I am getting a little bit off track, but what I am trying to say is - it is in their objective to
destroy faith in the national government. How do you destroy a national government? You create civil
war, create distrust of that government, bankrupt that government. There are all these different projects
to bring down the American government, and bring down respect for our government - they play both
ends against the middle.
Implementation of the end-times agendas involves a lot of agendas and a lot of people scurrying around
doing different things -- until you see the whole picture and how it all fits together, it just looks like a lot
of chaos.
Wayne Morris:
I wanted to come back to your point about them creating a chaotic situation, such as some of the
scenarios you have been talking about. In order for the public to then ask for the military to step in, or
for the United Nations to step in, and basically ask for a state of martial law -- is that your take on how
they are going to do this?
Fritz Springmeier:
We will ask them for what they want to do. People have sat in on Illuminati meetings where they gave
their 20, 30, 40 year plans -- the key word to all of those plans was that it would happen "naturally" - as
if it was naturally happening. In order to implement that, you have a lot of mind controlled slaves out
there. Another example, they want to destroy the continuity of religious beliefs in the USA. The USA
was basically founded by a Protestant majority, there were very few Catholics when the USA was
started. In other words, the people of this country had a common agreement -- one outlook on morality.
Fritz Springmeier:
When people have a moral belief system, Buddhist or whatever, if it's a very strong belife system, it's
hard to change them. What they are trying to do is fragment our belief system. They have brought in a
lot of foreign belief systems into the USA but you also have all of these New Age gurus popping up and
creating their own little New Age groups. In the bigger picture, it's to destroy the fabric of a unified
moral response, and a lot of these New Age leaders (eg. Elizabeth Claire Prophet - Church Universal and
Triumphant) are mind controlled slaves. Jay Z. Knight, that's who she goes by - the entity she channels -
she's a mind control slave. These are New Age leaders and they are gathering flocks. One of the gals
who became a friend of mine who left the C.U.T. and became a Christian, in having worked with her, I
noticed some red flags that maybe she, as one of the leaders of Elizabeth Claire Prophet's group, was a
mind control victim, and she's not the only evidence I have that not only are the leaders under mind
control who start the groups, but part of their flocks are mind control victims who are being programmed
to join these cults.
Imagine if you are a religious leader and you get secret help from the establishment and you have people
being programmed to join your organization, how that gives you an edge over you or I starting a
religion. So that's one reason why we have such a chaotic religious atmosphere out there where all of
these gurus and religious leaders are starting all these small weird groups.
Wayne Morris:
You talked about Dr. Ewen Cameron as being one of the mind control programmers. I would like to
know specifically what his and McGill University's contribution to the development of trauma based
mind control is, to your awareness.
Fritz Springmeier:
I don't know that I have a great deal to share. I know that St. Mary's Hospital there in Montreal was used
by these people for programming. In the basement they had what was known as The Zombie Room, and
an isolation room and the Grid Room. From various victims of mind control I know that various
Catholic Church institutions were used in Quebec. As far as Cameron's personal contribution, I know
that he worked for years assisting in the programming and research. The things that he researched were
classified, and I don't have a good grasp of what he discovered. I know that if we read "Journey Into
Madness" by Gordon Thomas, in a couple of places in his book he makes fun of Dr. Cameron. He says
that Cameron's grants hadn't produced any tangible value to the CIA or that there was a Dr. Gottlieb who
was supposedly investigating the doctor and questioning whether Cameron had done anything to help
the agents. I consider those kinds of statements the typical kind of CIA disinformation that is put out.
They typically say "we did research but we didn't find anything of value." I have a hard time believing
that Dr. Cameron who was on the leading edge of mind control and who was in touch with the top mind
control programmers of his day and learning techniques from them - that the man was of no value to the
CIA. I am not trying to put down Gordon Thomas' book because I would recommend it to people, but
this is the type of disinformation that spews forth from so many different sources. Why was he head of
the prestigious American Psychiatric Association, and the World Psychiatric Association? Why was he
put in charge of so many very powerful organizations by the establishment if he was so worthless to
their agenda?
Wayne Morris:
Just in a general sense, what were the types of institutions that were involved in the development of
mind control across North America?
Fritz Springmeier:
Good question. I can quote them. Admiral Stansfield Turner, on August 3, 1977, told a Senate
Investigating Committee that in the USA, prisons, pharmaceutical companies, hospitals, 44 medical
colleges, American universities and corporations were helping the CIA carry out the mind control
experiments. I believe that using the word "experiments" is a little bit of disinformation. This was
operational programming. They were taking the people who were coming out of these mind control
experiments and using them. They were far more than just experiments. But those were the kind of
institutions that were assisting in the programming.
Wayne Morris:
Can you make a statement about the role of psychiatry in the development of mind control?
Fritz Springmeier:
They have been very important to develop the mind control from being more what we would call
training to being placed on a very scientific basis. There has been extensive research into the mind by
psychiatrists. That research has been invaluable for developing the mind control technologies. Behavior
modification (Skinner, Pavlov, etc) findings were directly implemented in teaching various alters to do
certain things. If you read our Volume 2 book and the Deeper Insights book, I go into how each of the
different alters are created (ie. Gatekeepers). At some point a Gatekeeper alter will be taken to a door
and then using behavior modification techniques, severely torturing the alter, they are taught not to step
beyond the door, but hold their place at that door. The research that shows that this type of training
would be effective came from behavior modification and psychiatrists.
Wayne Morris:
Do you think that some psychiatrists may have been unwitting in helping develop this technology?
Fritz Springmeier:
There are several different levels of participation. People who are just plain evil; people who are
coerced, blackmailed, mind control victims themselves; then a level of people below that who are
unwitting dupes of the system. My father was never part of the system in the sense of he never joined
any occult societies, he is not in favour of a New World Order, philosophically he's not aligned with
them. He's just somebody who believes in science and he believes science can help the world. He
wanted to help the world, make a positive difference. The Illuminati deflect what these researchers want
for good and use it for evil purposes. I have a hard time with one scientist I was talking with earlier this
year. He developed biological weapons for the USa (viruses, anthrax, etc.). He said knowledge is
neutral, it is neither good nor bad. It's how it's used. I am thinking in my head, "are you that stupid, that
you don't realize the people you are working for and who are going to use this stuff are going to use it
for evil? ..." A lot of these scientists are so focused on the tiny little details of what they are trying to
research, and ego plays a part in this. They want to discover something - their ego, pride, concentration
in the research doesn't allow them to step back and say "what is this going to be used for?"
Wayne Morris:
The information that we have been talking about has been quite depressing, and I think a lot of people
are going to be affected by it. What message of hope do you have for people after learning about all of
this?
Fritz Springmeier:
There's two sides to a coin, and we have been talking about the negative side of the coin. The positive
side is that a lot of the technologies that have been developed could actually be used for the
advancement of mankind, to benefit mankind. Another positive is that in spite of the forces that are
trying to destroy humanity, there are a lot of positive forces. There are quite a number of independent
researchers, and they haven't gotten much media attention except ridicule - people have been researching
free energy, and they have made a lot of advancements - so the common person would not be dependent
upon the establishment for any of its energy. Another area of research is alternative medicine, amazing
discoveries that really liberate people from establishment medicine. You have the internet and
photocopy machines which have given the common person the ability to transmit and gather a lot of
information without being part of the establishment. You have home schooling. There are developments
that are taking place that do not rely on the establishment monopolies. These monopolies are fragile and
they can be broken.
Another positive is that in spite of the monumental power they have, people like myself have been able
to slip through their control cracks and have been able to free people from the deepest depths of the
organizations. I have been able to get out so much information exposing their methods and their agenda.
I am saying this to show these people are not invincible.
Wayne Morris:
I would like to thank you very much for joining us on this radio series. It's been absolutely fascinating
talking to you, and I would like to thank you for bringing this information out.
Fritz Springmeier:
I very much appreciate this chance, and I want to congratulate your courage and your love for the truth
in bringing this to the Canadian and the American people.
Wayne Morris:
Stay tuned next week for an interview with Cisco Wheeler, Fritz Springmeier's co-author, and former
Illuminati family mind controlled slave. CBC TV is going to be airing a few productions on mind
control this week. The Fifth Estate is supposed to be airing an investigation which was supposed to be
about Montreal psychiatrist, Dr. Pivnicki (Mila Mulroney's father) and his role in covering up the
Cameron mind control experiments. I am not sure if that's what is on this week - I don't know if they had
to change that due to Brian Mulroney's attempt to clear his name. Also one week today, Sunday January
11, 1998 at 8-10pm will be Part One of The Sleep Room, which is a documentary based on Anne
Collins' book "In The Sleep Room" based on Dr. Ewen Cameron and his CIA funded experiments on his
psychiatric patients at the Allen Memorial Psychiatric Institute in Montreal. Dr. Cameron was the target
of two lawsuits against the CIA and the Canadian government by his psychiatric patients who had been
unwittingly involved in his experiments which involved electroshock, sensory deprivation, psychic
driving, drugs, reportedly in an effort to wipe out a person's mind and create a new personality.
Now throughout this series we have heard an even darker side to Dr. Ewen Cameron's mind control
experiments, and that his involvement in trauma conditioning of children. This extreme form of mind
control perpetrated against children involved creating and controlling multiple identities through torture,
physical, emotional and sexual abuse, hypnosis, drugs, electroshock and structural programming. We
have heard from Claudia Mullen and her testimony given to the US Presidential Advisory Committee on
Human Radiation Experiments in 1995 about how Dr. Cameron would electroshock her after being
involved in an experiment or sexual blackmail operation when she was still a child. We heard from
Lynne Moss-Sharman who was experimented on and programmed by Dr. Ewen Cameron along with Dr.
Jose Delgado, another well-known CIA mind control doctor, and we heard most recently from Fritz
Springmeier claiming that Dr. Cameron was an associate of Dr. Josef Mengele and that Mengele had
been smuggled out of Europe to work in the USA, continuing his work refining mind control for the
CIA. Information from his work has Ewen Cameron and Josef Mengele working together creating mind
control operatives.
Now, is the CBC going to deal with these allegations and the testimony in their upcoming documentary?
Well, we will see ...
You have been listening to the International Connection on CKLN.
[CBC introduction to In The Sleep Room]

Cisco Wheeler Interview
CKLN 88.1 FM Ryerson Polytechnical University Toronto, Ontario
Mind Control Series

Good morning, and welcome to The International Connection. We are in week #40 in our radio series on
mind control, and today we begin an interview with Cisco Wheeler, co-author of "The Illuminati
Formula Used to Create an Undetectable Mind Controlled Slave" and other books about trauma-based
conditioning. Cisco is a mind control victim of one of the Illuminati families. She is a descendant of
Ulysses S. Grant and has managed to gain a certain amount of freedom from her family's control. She is
currently working with Fritz Springmeier to help other victims of mind control heal. Cisco rarely does
interviews, so we are very fortunate to be able to bring you this interview with Cisco Wheeler.

I would like to start off by asking you what your background is and how you first became involved in
trauma-based conditioning mind control.
Cisco Wheeler:
I was first involved as an infant. My father came from a transgenerational satanic family. My life was
planned according to a particular structure, from the beginning, as my father was a programmer for the
Illuminati and the U.S. government.
Wayne Morris:
What political/military connections did your family have that you are aware of?
Cisco Wheeler:
We had a very strong political background. My father had political connections; my Great Uncle was
General Earl Grant Wheeler, he was a direct descendant of Ulysses Grant. General Earl Wheeler was the
head of the American military in the Vietnam War. He was the Joint Chief of Staff so we had a very
strong political background. My father was also a Grand Master within the Illuminati. He worked on the
west coast during the Vietnam War with his uncle who headed the military, to run drugs into this
country to create a drug culture. The purpose of that was to destroy the structure within the family unit.
The drug culture was the real purpose behind the Vietnam War. My father was also with the USO shows
in the military as he was a musician; he was also involved with the CIA; and he was a 33rd degree
Mason. Because of his being a Grand Master within the Illuminati, he was very strongly connected to
America's political sturcture. Because of the generational ties within the Illuminati, from the planned
time of my conception, I entered into a world that was well structured, and well planned. And as a
structured slave within the Illuminati, I too became connected to America's political structure. As a small
child I was groomed to sexually service the so-called elite within this political structure.
Wayne Morris:
Are you talking people in the White House?
Cisco Wheeler:
Yes. President Eisenhauer is the first president that I remember. He befriended me as a small child. I
would sit on his lap, sang to him, there were sexual gestures back and forth. I was being trained. I
entertained governors, mayors, ministers. I was trained in sexual activity there, and I was part of the
Illuminati function within the British Royal Family during elite meetings.
Wayne Morris:
How young do you remember when you started being subjected to trauma conditioning ... from birth?
Cisco Wheeler:
I was traumatized in the womb.
Wayne Morris:
How did you first realize that your family was connected with the Illuminati?
Cisco Wheeler:
If you understand multliplicity, you understand there are many layers in the system. Because there are
many layers, parts of ourself knew, and had many memories of certain things happening in our life, but
the front part of our system that faced the outside world, they had no recall or memory at all that
associated them to Illuminati programming or trauma based mind control. So if I speak for the front part
of our mind, they knew nothing was wrong at all, outside of knowing they had a very abusive childhood.
They didn't really know anything was wrong until my father died. When he died, that freed our mind to
be able to retrieve memory, and at that point, they understood something was wrong. They started
hearing voices and having flashbacks and having information that was retrieved, that they knew they
didn't have a "history" of and they couldn't figure out what happened.
Where did this come from? This isn't the way I think. Why would I be thinking about sexual issues when
I have no recall of ever being sexually abused or why do I remember that I was in a certain place but yet
I don't remember ... it's all second hand. Do you understand what I am saying? So, it wasn't until after
my father died that they started breaking down the hypnotic walls within the mind that protected me
from knowing what happened. Over a period of time, because of memory retrieval and flashbacks, and
the trauma it was causing, they became extremely suicidal and they didn't believe in suicide, they sought
help. They went into a hospital for nine weeks and started working with a therapist, and after a time
period they realized it wasn't normal to want to die when your father died, and we found out there was a
real deep problem.
Wayne Morris:
Did these initial therapists that you worked with have knowledge of mind control or trauma based
conditioning techniques at the time?
Cisco Wheeler:
Very vaguely. We were one of the first multiples diagnosed in this area and we basically worked with
our therapist and she learned. She made a commitment to us, and what she didn't know, she found out.
Wayne Morris:
Your father was your main handler and programmer, and how old were you when he died?
Cisco Wheeler:
My father was my handler and programmer, and I was forty years old when he died.
Wayne Morris:
How did you manage to break free of your family's control of your life at that time? Did other people
step in ...
Cisco Wheeler:
When the Master dies, generally the slave also dies, but because of our determination to fight the
programming and to get to the bottom of what was happening within our mind, we were able to fight the
suicide programming. >From there we started a journey into understanding that we were a structured
multiple which we didn't even know what that was ... that we had a long road ahead of us, a hard road to
travel.
Wayne Morris:
Did you have to travel that alone or did other people help you?
Cisco Wheeler:
No. I had a very strong support team. Several people in my support team were also victims of mind
control.
Wayne Morris:
The people that weren't, they had an understanding of the mind control techniques?
Cisco Wheeler:
No. We started this journey basically learning to understand ourselves, listening to ourselves,
confronting each other within the system with this is what is happening with you, putting our notes
together and realizing 'hey we are getting our memories separately, we are feeling the same way,
reacting the same way', taking one step at a time because thirteen years ago, nobody really knew
anything about MPD.
Wayne Morris:
Did your father also victimize other people?
Cisco Wheeler:
Most definitely. He was a master programmer.
Wayne Morris:
Did you have brothers and sisters that were affected as well?
Cisco Wheeler:
Not to the degree that I was. I was the firstborn.
Wayne Morris:
Is it because you were the firstborn that you were chosen for this kind of vitimization or were there other
reasons?
Cisco Wheeler:
In part. In the late forties the Illuminati wanted to infilitrate the churches because they understood the
power of God within the structure of the church, and they had to find a way to infiltrate the church to
break down that spiritual strength within the church, the power of the holy spirit that works within the
church. They had to find a way to infiltrate that, and they wanted to bring the world into the churches so
that the churches wouldn't be so strong spiritually. That was part of my father's job. In order to do that
my father married my mother who was not Illuminati, nor was she ritual, but she did have a very strong
religious background. She was that perfect example for the world, that perfect wife for the church, to set
examples for other young women in the church. When my father married her, that was his way to
infiltrate the church, through my mother.
Wayne Morris:
Throughout your father's life, how did he go about infiltrating during this process?
Cisco Wheeler:
By becoming part of the church, by being a minister, by being ordained, by getting into the youth
groups, becoming very friendly with the Elders and the Board of Directors within the congregation
itself. This was the Pentecostal churches.
Wayne Morris:
You mentioned your father's role in drug trafficking within the Vietnam War. Could you expand on that?
Cisco Wheeler:
When the Vietnam soldiers were killed and they brought their bodies back, drugs were hidden in the
cavities in their bodies. My father's responsibility was to get that from the mortician and it would be a
controlled substance at that point, and he was the handler of that controlled substance. He wasn't active
in Vietnam. He was just the extended hand that was used within our government to make sure the drugs
met their destination.
Wayne Morris:
Once the drugs came over into North America, what were your father's connections in terms of the
distribution at that point?
Cisco Wheeler:
I do not know. I was not allowed to know that. I didn't see it. I was too young at that time ... well, I
wasn't that young, but I was too young to be a part of that.
Wayne Morris:
Do you consider yourself completely free now of the influence from the Illuminati and your former
perpetrators?
Cisco Wheeler:
No I do not consider myself completely free from the cult influence. We are continually harassed by
external threats. We get a lot of phone calls, we get bullets in our windows, we get run off the road, we
get letters, we get people that walk up to us in the grocery store and they threaten us. They let us know
in their little way that they know where I am, what I am doing, and what I am up to, and that it's not over
until they say it's over. They are calling the shots.
Wayne Morris:
Have they been able to access parts of you that you have not dealt with in terms of healing?
Cisco Wheeler:
In the past they have; at the present time, no. I am very careful on where I am and what I am doing. I am
not careless with my time or my energy, and I don't set myself up so that they can access me. I have
other people answer my phone. I have other people read my letters. I have other people that walk before
to make sure everything is okay before I walk into anything that I can't handle.
Wayne Morris:
What effects has the trauma conditioning that you have undergone throughout your life do you have to
deal with currently?
Cisco Wheeler:
I continue to suffer with the trauma based mind control in every aspect of my life. I have to deal with the
fact that my father had a beautiful little girl and he didn't want her love as that beautiful little girl that
was born to him. I have to deal with the fact that he wanted a little girl but he wanted her to be shattered
into a million pieces so he could structure every aspect of my life. And then I have to ask myself what
did it take to splinter this 18 month old child into a million pieces? And you deal with questions like
that. It is hard for the mind to comprehend what has been done to you because the mind always wants to
protect itself to some degree so you take little 'bites' of it. But the mind is always processing material.
Then I have to deal with the fact that they planned this - that's what structured is. Structured MPD/DID
was planned from the time of my conception and I am afraid that kind of hurts my feelings when I think
about it.
Wayne Morris:
They had a definite structure in terms of knowing what they were doing when they were traumatizing
you, and what the effects that would bring about ...
Cisco Wheeler:
Exactly. They knew from A to Z what they wanted to do with my life and how they wanted to structure,
what they wanted me to be, and what they wanted me to become. That is slavery. I had to deal with the
body, soul and spirit because all parts of myself have been raped. I continually have to deal with
memories; with spirit issues; issues within me - in my programming; how they dehumanized me; how
they shamed me; how they traumatized me to the point that I didn't even know who I was, what I was,
where I was going. I didn't even know I was a little girl at some points in my traumatization. They made
sure they dehumanized me to such a point I became a kitten within myself. To be a little girl was to be
tortured, to be punished, unacceptable. I have to deal with the spiritual issues because I was told God
didn't love me, he raped me, I could no longer have my name in the Lamb's Book of Life, my name was
taken out of the Book of Life, and then they continued to program me with hypnotically taking my heart
from my body, using drugs, so I didn't even know I had a heart. They dehumanized me to the point
where there was no place to go except the family. No place to go.
Wayne Morris:
Were there other perpetrators involved in your family, other than your father?
Cisco Wheeler:
Oh definitely. I am trying to think of where I want to start. My primary programmer was Dr. Green, who
was Dr. Josef Mengele. My other primary programmer was Dr. Black, who was my father.
Wayne Morris:
When did you realize that Dr. Green was in fact Josef Mengele?
Cisco Wheeler:
I always knew from my internal parts. My deeper parts were programmers and my father was trained by
Mengele, he was his #2 man. We followed in my father's footsteps. We were also trained to be a
programmer. That was our specialized field.
Wayne Morris:
Did he say or use his name at some points?
Cisco Wheeler:
Yes, he did. As well he went by Dr. Fairchild, Dr. Green.
Wayne Morris:
What's your understanding of Mengele's involvement in mind control across the continent?
Cisco Wheeler:
I am sure that he infiltrated every state, and I know he has worked up in Canada.
Wayne Morris:
What state were you located when he was performing mind control on you?
Cisco Wheeler:
Most of my programming occurred in California and Oregon. In California at China Lake Naval Base;
the Presidio north San Francisco; and the Letterman Hospital next to the Presidio military base. In
Alcatraz there was programming that went on in the prisons there. And Scotty's Castle in Death Valley
in California. Also in Torrence, California. And at the State Mental Hospital in Salem, Oregon and in the
big Masonic hospital called Dorenbecker here in Portland.
Wayne Morris:
What time frame would that have been in?
Cisco Wheeler:
1948-9 clear up to the middle 60's.
Wayne Morris:
How did you begin the process of healing yourself into disabling as much as possible the programming
that was done to you?
Cisco Wheeler:
By stabilizing myself. By making sure I was in a safe place where I could do my work without being
infiltrated. By sincerely making that effort to go towards health above all else. To work diligently on my
memories and my programming, and to be a truth-seeker. To find out, no matter what had been done to
me, I wanted to know what had been done. If you don't know where you have been, you don't know
where you are going. It was very important for me to go towards health, because once I realized what
they had done to me and the depths of the programming, I was going to stand by and not say anything,
be silent, let it not be spoken ... I was going to beat the programming which has been hear no evil, see no
evil, do no evil. I was going to beat that. I was going to tell. That was my determination that helped me
fight the trauma of knowing what I had to learn about myself.
Wayne Morris:
The work that you had to go through to accomplish that level of healing - what does that involve in
terms of dealing with your memories?
Cisco Wheeler:
I had to face the pain, the torture, face my own fears of the unknown, face the fact that my father didn't
love me, face the fact that trauma bonding is not love and no matter what they say as far as in the name
of love, there is no love involved in this. I had to look deep inside myself and find that spark of life that
was left because they so dehumanize you as they are programming you to be their slave, that for some
the light goes out and there is no hope, but for myself I was fortunate. There was some hope and there as
a light, and that light enabled me to have the courage and the strength I needed to go towards health.
Wayne Morris:
How did the people around you help you through this?
Cisco Wheeler:
My support team was very helpful. It consisted of three women plus myself. We were all programmed
around the same time by the same programmers. My father was a very strong in their lives, because he
was their programmer. That tied us together emotionally. All four of us had made the determination that
we were going to walk out of this and that we were going to go toward health. We became very bonded,
not only from what we knew had ritually happened to us, and through the shared trauma base. We
stepped out of that and started building a new type of friendship of trust, lifting each other up, building
each other up, being there for each other, having a listening ear, learning how to document our
memories, to be there no matter what time of the day it was for the first five years. We all needed each
other at any given point. Two of the three ladies have medical degrees, the other is a teacher -- all four of
us are free today because we stood together.
In our healing process the first thing we had to acknowledge within ourselves, and we each had to do
this separately, is to acknowledge that we are MPD, that we are DID, and that we were generational
families of satanism. Yes, we did practice satanism, and yes we were of the Illuminati bloodline, and
yes, there is a lot of dirt in our lives, and yes, we don't want to look at it. It was too painful to look at.
But there came a time when we wanted to step out of our denial and I think that's the most important
thing in the healing process when I look back - we had the courage to look at our life and the reality in
which it stood. We were programmed to be a programmer, and that gave us the ability to understand
others as well as ourselves, and we could work together within a group, and we did gain a lot of strength
from one another. But we also had to call a spade a spade. We couldn't run away from what had
happened to us. That was our strength. It gave us the courage we needed to keep fighting.
Once we realized that yes, we were under mind control, and yes, we were slaves for the Illuminati - we
didn't like the slavery in which we had been born into. We also didn't like the idea that we never were
given a choice as to what happened to us. We wanted to be free agents. We just didn't know how to
become a free agent. We had to fight for it. It didn't come easy. The nights were filled with trauma. The
days were filled with trauma and pain. The body, soul and spirit is continually in a warfare as it goes
towards health. It does not like to release the hidden knowledge of what was done to us, everything was
done to us in secret. Because of the programs it didn't want to unravel itself and to do so was very very
painful.
Wayne Morris:
Was the ability for you and the other survivors to be able to find a safe place, to be able to undergo this
work with others - was this a significant factor in being able to break that control?
Cisco Wheeler:
Oh definitely. Even to the point where we would go to see our therapist, our handlers would be on the
stairs of the building which we would enter to see our therapist - to let us know that if we said anything
that would bring down the family or to expose the family, that we would pay for it later. They would be
waiting for us. In other words, have a good time, enjoy your therapist, but we will be here waiting when
you get out. The torture that came - you had to face them every single time you went to see your
therapist, you had to face knowing they could be around a corner, or even run you off the road on the
way to the therapist. They may burn your house down, or they may put a bullet through one of your
children's heads, or through your bedroom window, or they are going to get to you one way or the other.
You have to work with threats, the lies. That was at the beginning of our therapy work. Just to get
through the trauma of the threat would keep most people at home. But what it did for us and the other
survivors is that we became so angry that we decided we were going to fight them, even until death,
because it's not over until God says it's over. When He says it's over, that's fine, we are ready to go
home. We are going to fight this. We are going to win.
Before when we were under mind control and the memories were taken from us, we didn't have a
choice. We didn't have a say in what they did to us. But this time it is different. We have a say. We could
walk into the therapist's office or we could choose not to. But to have the ability to say 'even until death I
am going to go to therapy, I am going to continue this journey' there was a lot of strength that came with
that, because every time we took a step in the right direction, it gave us the power that we needed.
Wayne Morris:
So you found a lot of strength in the anger.
Cisco Wheeler:
Even when they got a hold of us in the first five years of our therapy, and they did get a hold of us, and
they did torture us, and they did apply electrical shock, they did drug us, and they did rape us, over and
over, they continued these things the first five years. Even after the trauma, it was still worth it. Because
it was the first time we knew we were human. We had been so dehumanized from the trauma of the
mind control, that just to have a spark of humanism, to really have the reality, "I am not a kitten." "I am
a child, I am a woman, I was once a little girl." "It was all lies." You are willing to die for the truth ...
Wayne Morris:
You mentioned about trauma bonding ... can you explain to our listeners what that is and what it meant
for you in your case?
Cisco Wheeler:
For instance, Dr. Green. He used to put us in the hot cages in the desert there, they were sweat tanks. He
would come out there, after we had no water and no food for a number of hours (it seemed like days to
us). We were told it was days, but common sense tells us that it was hours. These cages were set up so
we could see outside the cages (like animal cages). In my memory, off to the left me were other cages ...
with small children 2, 3, 4 years old. Green would come out there and he would have a daisy in his hand
and he would walk through this area where we were being held in these holding tanks, and he would
walk up to me and he would say, "I love you, I love you not, I love you ..." If he said "I love you not" I
knew I was in big trouble because he had already set a prior example to me by walking in front of the
cage to my left, and he told the little girl that he loved her not when he reached the last petal of his daisy.
At that point, she was taken out, and she was eliminated in front of me. In other words, her life was
taken from her at that point, to show his power and his control, and what would happen if Dr. Green
ceased to love you.
What I failed to understand as a child, with a child's mind, is that it was set up. The murder did take
place but the thing is, these were what they called "expendable" children. As for me, I was Illuminati, so
they weren't going to eliminate me because they had a reason for me, they had my life planned for me.
Part of the grooming is to set the stage. The script was played out when Dr. Green eliminated the child
in the cage. I was to see all this, because it was a power play. If that's love trauma bonding, "I love you
Dr. Green, I love you very very much because you could have said you didn't love me and I would be
dead". He did "love me" because he "spared my life" - but it also showed me the power that this man
had. Try to translate that into a child's mind when they are only four or five years old.
Wayne Morris:
Do you feel that the unpredictability of the trauma was a factor in the trauma bonding?
Cisco Wheeler:
Definitely. You never knew when you were going to be loved and when you weren't going to be loved -
at any point there could be a change of direction. When my father was kind as my programmer, he was
very kind but when he was ruthless, he was ruthless to the core. There was no humanism. He became
less than a wild animal himself, there was nothing he would not do to get his point across. We have parts
of ourselves that love him dearly to this day, who will always love him, they look up to him.
Wayne Morris:
How many other children were involved in this, that you were aware of, at the time?
Cisco Wheeler:
I knew in 1968 that there were over 2 million MKULTRA's. Since then I don't have the awareness or the
knowledge because I am not seeing the paperwork or the records to tell me how many. If I was making a
guess, I would say 10 million.
Wayne Morris:
How did you know 2 million were involved?
Cisco Wheeler:
Because I was a programmer and I saw the documented records on this.
Wayne Morris:
So they have been able to program victims to program other victims ... how did they go about doing
that?
Cisco Wheeler:
They train you on the job. You have to realize within the Illuminati structure there are many levels to the
system. My mothers were trained in programming. That's at the Illuminati level.
Wayne Morris:
They trained you in programming techniques?
Cisco Wheeler:
Yes.
Wayne Morris:
What kind of people did they make you perform this kind of programming on? Were they other
Illuminati family members?
Cisco Wheeler:
They were all Illuminati children. We did not work outside of the Illuminati structure.
Wayne Morris:
As an Illuminati family member, what did they have in mind for you, why did they want to program
you?
Cisco Wheeler:
The sole purpose - at the deepest layer of the system - lies mothers. They are the foundation. You have
three mothers who are on a pedestal - their sole purpose is to rule and reign with the antichrist as his
queen when he takes his throne. As god has a bride, so lucifer has a bride, and that bride is the mothers
of darkness. That is the bottom line.
Wayne Morris:
Who would be this antichrist figure? I have heard of the name, "Lord Maitreya." Is this one candidate?
Cisco Wheeler:
He is one of the forerunners, a disciple. You have to understand the luciferian belief system and the way
that the structure within the Illuminati is laid out. It is laid out according to god's word - so that it can
stand, or it can be blasphemous of who god is. But when god sent his son to the earth, christ had twelve
disciples that followed him. The antichrist is going to be like three in one, and he will also have twelve
forerunners. This is where Maitreya comes in. He is a forerunner. John the Baptist was a forerunner for
christ.
Wayne Morris:
Do you have any information on how they are going to accomplish this?
Cisco Wheeler:
They have already accomplished it ... by taking our constitutional rights away from us ... by having a
government within a government, like a box within a box. By creating famines, by having wars and
rumours of wars, by the American people and the Canadian people no longer having the freedoms that
once were theirs.
Wayne Morris:
In a global sense, how is this related to what is known as New World Order?
Cisco Wheeler:
The New World Order is a body of people within the Illuminati, thirteen major bloodlines that rule the
world and they set the stage, they play out the script, and there will be a complete fulfillment of what
they have staged for the American people, Canadians, and the world. There is no doubt about it.
Wayne Morris:
What kind of things do you expect will occur in the future that relate to this?
Cisco Wheeler:
I believe that the people in the world are going to wake up some day very soon and realize that the stock
market has crashed, that financially the world has been crushed. They are going to realize that their food
and grain has been contaminated, that their medical field has been dominated by the Illuminati medical
force because the Illuminati has infiltrated every aspect of our lives. They are going to realize that we
don't have the freedom to even speak for our children, that the government has more to say in regards to
our children than we do, they can take them and control them at any given point. We are going to realize
that the churches are not what they seem to have been - that the churches have been infiltrated. There is
nothing left. There is nothing that has not been touched by the Illuminati and its family.
Wayne Morris:
Is there a time when this is going to be implemented in terms of a one world, military government?
Cisco Wheeler:
Definitely. I expect 1998 to be a year of turmoil as far as people coming to terms with the knowledge
that the government is not what they thought it was, the church is not what they thought it was, people
they have looked up to are not who they thought they were.
Wayne Morris:
What kinds of things do you believe these power groups who belong to the Illuminati will try and
implement in terms of controlling people's anger and responses to what they've got planned? What is
their retaliation?
Cisco Wheeler:
To eliminate the people as a whole - anyone who doesn't come under submission of the New World
Order will be eliminated.
Wayne Morris:
Do you think they will use the mind controlled victims to implement that?
Cisco Wheeler:
Most definitely.
Wayne Morris:
How do you think that is going to come about?
Cisco Wheeler:
They can use any slave that has been under mind control to accomplish any goal they have set forth with
an access code, they can blow up a bridge, they can assassinate any leader - a governor, mayor, pastor -
anyone that gets in the Illuminati's path, who will not bend or bow to the Illuminati structure - they have
slaves in force who will just go and eliminate them. Whatever is needed, it is there. I guarantee you it is
there.
Wayne Morris:
There have been quite a number of survivors of mind control talking about end-times programming
where they know they are going to be triggered to do something. Is this related to that?
Cisco Wheeler:
Yes it is. Most definitely is. There is a clock ticking and it is going to strike midnight soon, and when it
does, all hell is going to break loose within the world.
Wayne Morris:
Do you have an idea of a date?
Cisco Wheeler:
I do not give dates. I am not God and things can always change. The timetables can change because of
circumstances surrounding what they are trying to accomplish. It can either rapidly speed up or time can
stand still because everything has to work like a ticking clock - everything has to be in its place in order
for the New World Order to come about. Everything has to be in its place.
Wayne Morris:
What do you think people can do out there to try to stop this or to prepare themselves for this?
Cisco Wheeler:
I believe that people need to understand there is a time to weep, and there is a time for war, every man
and every woman should have the insight or the foreknowledge within themselves the answer to
themselves. When they look around, if they are honest with themselves, they can see that the world is
falling apart at its seams, something big is coming down, they need to look at themselves. Listen to
themselves. Look and see and hear what is happening around them, and they need to start preparing
themselves for the worst because the worst is coming. They need to be in a place, and in a state of mind
that when the military soldiers are knocking at their doors and come after their children to take them
down, that they say "not me, not me, not me and my house." We are in a fight. There is a time to fight.
Wayne Morris:
Part of your strength, as you said, has been from your anger in terms of trying to expose what they have
been doing. What have you been doing since breaking free to a certain degree in terms of exposing what
they have been doing? How have you been getting the word out to the public?
Cisco Wheeler:
I have co-authored three books with Fritz Springmeier, and in co-authoring these books we have taken
our internal information and our knowledge that we have had because of our own experiences in the
Illuminati and we have put it to the page. In other words, we have written it. Because we are a
programmer, we understand the inside and the heartbeat of lucifer himself, because mind control and the
Illuminati are nothing more than the heartbeat of satan himself, to bring down God's people, the world as
a whole.
Wayne Morris:
What more do you think needs to happen in terms of exposing this to the general public?
Cisco Wheeler:
I believe that to understand what is going on within the heartbeat of the Illuminati, that you need to
understand what the Illuminati are -- who they are, what they are, and what they have done. To
understand something you need to have foresight -- without foresight you are walking in the dark and
you are going to think you know but you really do not know until you come in contact with it -- even if
it is through the pages of the written word. It's out there -- it's written. Whether it's me or Fritz or
someone else, there is written material on mind control and people need to know what's been done. If
they don't know what's been done to them, they are never going to know what can be done again to their
families and their families, and their children.
Wayne Morris:
So what elements in terms of the Illuminati's belief systems and what they have been doing -- what
elements are essential for people to understand?
Cisco Wheeler:
They need to understand that the Illuminati are satanists and that there isn't anything they will not do.
They are gods unto themselves. They think they are gods and they are only serving lucifer. They have
taken oaths to lucifer to serve him as their prince, as the father of light. They have taken blood oaths in
order to see this, to see it done, to see the fulfillment of the end-time, to see the antichrist take his throne.
They have done this for centuries.
Wayne Morris:
Do you think it is important that the general public understands the mind control aspects of this and how
they have accomplished mind control?
Cisco Wheeler:
Most definitely. If they don't understand mind control, they are not going to understand what's
happening in their backyard or in their schools or in their churches or in politics. They need to
understand how they have been totally controlled from the cradle themselves -- that most everything
they have been told is a lie.
Wayne Morris:
How important in terms of the Illuminati's bloodline is mind control on their own family members?
What part does that play in promoting their goals?
Cisco Wheeler:
The Illuminati are very loyal unto themselves. They are gods. They see themselves as gods, and they
stay within the Illuminati structure, within the royal bloodlines, within the thirteen ruling families. If you
are not generational, you are not going to get into the Illuminati because this is passed from generation
to generation from son to daughter to daughter to son, to father ... it touches everyone within the family
for generations. This isn't something that just happened.
Wayne Morris:
It seems to be something more than just normal family allegiances at work here in that they have
traumatized and mind controlled their own family members. I sense that has been an important part of
perpetuating their end goals?
Cisco Wheeler:
That's true, because their allegiance is unto lucifer who I now will call him satan, that's who he is. They
believe in the doctrinism of satanism that if they rule as gods and they are obedient to the call which is
lucifer's call upon their life because they made blood oaths with him, then they will rule and reign with
him in hell. They don't fear hell. They have no fear of hell. They only believe if they do what satan asks
them to do, which he does tell them what to do, that they will stand as gods with him in hell and they
will rule the people in hell. They will become gods with him. That is the big lie. They believe this. What
can I say? That is the bottom line of the doctrine. They believe they will be gods in hell. And they all
want to be gods because they see themselves as gods. As a god, they come under no authority except
lucifer's authority. Lucifer does their bidding for them. He tells them exactly what to do, what he wants,
and they will do it.
Wayne Morris:
Do you think this is driven by just the drive for power and the seduction of power? Is this what is
underlying their motivation?
Cisco Wheeler:
It has to do with money, honour, power and glory -- it has to do with demonic entities -- with
generational spirits.
Wayne Morris:
So they have aligned themselves with ...
Cisco Wheeler:
With lucifer and his demonic entities, yes, they are very demon possessed.
Wayne Morris:
Both you and Fritz have been helping other victims of this trauma-based mind control. How has the
understanding of the programming techniques helped you help others?
Cisco Wheeler:
I have been able to help other victims of trauma-based mind control as I have made myself available to
counsel without any charge. Also I have had -- because I have co-authored books with Fritz -- I have the
information out there and they are wanting to talk to me about some of the material that has been written
in the books because many of them have been facing the same issues and the same problems. Sometimes
they just need a listening ear. Also in working with victims of mind control I can understand them in the
complexity of who they are and for what has been done to them, without being judgmental. When they
tell me they are MKULTRA and Dr. Green or Dr. Black or Dr. Blue or Dr. Star has programmed them
and they have memories of this, immediately my heart becomes one with them because I have been
there. I have walked in their shoes, and I know what they are going through. I want to hear what they
have to say, and I care what has happened to them. I care. I see their journey -- not that I take on their
journey -- but I see their journey and whatever I might say may give them the strength they need to
continue to go towards health, and that's very important to me.
Wayne Morris:
I am wondering when you are working with other victims, has the act of remembering the trauma of
their conditioning, does that help to disable the programming or conditioning?
Cisco Wheeler:
When someone else can walk where you have walked, or say yes, I do acknowledge that -- it's
confirmation. We need confirmation. Because the atrocities that have been done to us in order to enslave
us to the degree in which we were enslaved under total mind control that we didn't even know we were
alive and well on planet earth without permission - you know what I'm saying?
When someone calls me and says "I remember such and such" and I'll say, "you're right on track -- your
mind never lied to you -- I can confirm what you are saying -- these things did happen and yes, I am
very familiar with this program." I will not tell them about the program because that's very dangerous to
do so, but I will let them tell me what they know. Then I will give them the confirmation as to where
they are.
Wayne Morris:
What other kinds of things can be done for victims in terms of their own healing and memory work?
What else do you recommend for them?
Cisco Wheeler:
I think one of the most important things to remember is that we were all slaves. We were ruled and
controlled by the harshest hand of mastery. We were controlled by very sadistic individuals and we were
terribly, terribly treated. You wouldn't treat an animal the way we were treated. You wouldn't -- it's
important to be sensitive to that because it's very painful. The body has felt raped, the mind has felt
raped, the spirit has felt raped. And we need someone to say this really hurts and we need to have
someone to say "you know I didn't walk where you have walked and so I can't totally comprehend what
you are saying to me, but I am listening, and I truly believe what happened to you did happen to you."
Because we have been so programmed to believe that if we tell the world that the world will call us a liar
and they will stand us up and either shoot us or put us in prison for the crimes that have been done or
that no one is going to believe the atrocities anyway. Did anyone believe about the Holocaust? The
world didn't want to hear about the Holocaust. They didn't believe it. It's been how many years -- and
people still don't want to believe that the Holocaust really did happen. And what happened to us is no
less than what happened in the concentration camps.
Wayne Morris:
Do you feel that they have done particular types of trauma and conditioning that would set you up to be
disbelieved by the public?
Cisco Wheeler:
Oh definitely. When someone like myself or Mr. Springmeier start telling you things about ritual abuse
and satanic holidays and yes, they do this, and they do a,b,c and d, the mind goes "Uh, uh. I am going to
shut down, you just hit a block here, I don't want to hear it." To hear it means that everything you have
been told in your life all of a sudden is a lie. These things do happen. We are programmed within the
story lines of fairy tales, etc. and that helps us.
Wayne Morris:
I talked about this with Fritz about how certain cultural - stories, movies, books are used ... Wizard of
Oz ...
Cisco Wheeler:
Alice in Wonderland, make believe ...
Wayne Morris:
So this is done for a couple of purposes, both because of the prevalence of this type of material out in
our 'cultural' world -- this reinforces the programming.
Cisco Wheeler:
And even if you haven't had the trauma-based mind control, you are still in a world of make believe
because you are conditioned to a world of make believe through the fairy tales. There isn't any reality
here, but the mind always wants to go back where it is safe.
Wayne Morris:
It seems like some of these programmers also have done things deliberately to discredit any accounts
coming -- afterwards -- in terms of the victims, like them dressing up like Santa Claus -- just being
ridiculous ...
Cisco Wheeler:
They do that so it invalidates you -- there are certain programs that if you remember this or that -- and I
don't want to say it over the phone because I certainly don't want to be responsible for triggering
someone out there -- but if you remember certain informatiion you immediately go into an insanity
mode. These insanity modes are put in at a very deep level with hypnosis and drugs, and when you hit
one, if you don't have a support team that you need, you will go insane. And you will end up in a mental
institution. Who wants to believe someone that spent the last six months in a mental institution?
Wayne Morris:
In a general sense, I wonder if you can give some information to our listeners to sensitize them as to
what kinds of things were done, what kind of techniques were used for the purposes of mind control?
You mentioned hypnosis and drugs, trauma ..
Cisco Wheeler:
Yes, and electrical shock. I always speak for myself, and I go back to eighteen months when they
wanted to make sure they splintered my mind. My father was my primary programmer, but he was also
my father and when I was born I was isolated with my father in a small room within the environment of
our own home, where my father became my primary care provider. I looked up to my father. By the time
I was 18 months, because my father was a programmer, he could control my liver, my kidneys, my heart
rate, my pulse, my respiration.
Wayne Morris:
How did he accomplish that?
Cisco Wheeler:
Through hypnosis -- I was so trauma-bonded to him. My survival depended totally on him. I was not
exposed to the outside world. He was my handler, in every sense of the word. He fed me, he bathed me.
I also was a premature birth which was very important because I was a very weak child when I was
born. I weighed 2 lb. 1 oz. and he conditioned me through his voice - he always told me he could control
me. He loved me to the point that, even in my infancy, as a newborn child, I was totally dependent on
him for my life.
When I was 18 months old I was taken from him which was a shock for me because I had never been
separated from him, and my first trauma came when I was raped by him. When he finished raping me I
had to have reconstructive surgery done to repair the damage. That was the trauma that splintered my
mind into a million pieces. I shouldn't say "million", it feels like a million to me -- rather thousands of
pieces.
Wayne Morris:
What kind of things were you conditioned to do -- you mentioned sexual slavery -- what other jobs or
operations were you programmed to do?
Cisco Wheeler:
I have Beta and Delta alters which are espionage alters -- they specialized in martial arts. They were
alters that were used for blackmail of politicians, ministers, anyone that needed to be blackmailed in
order to bring them under the subission of the Illuminati.
Wayne Morris:
How would this blackmail occur?
Cisco Wheeler:
Usually through a sexual act. Usually there would be a stage where they would have sex with a certain
person and that person, during the sex act, would be traumatized to such a point that the person died and
they would be blackmailed that they committed murder, when in fact they didn't. There are many
different ways to set up blackmail. It would be recorded and that would be the sex slave's responsibility
to do that, and to set that individual up.
Wayne Morris:
Who would be the people behind the blackmail?
Cisco Wheeler:
The Illuminati, the family, who wanted that person under their submission, under their rule, from that
day forward. Deltas were assassination alters for anyone who doesn't want to follow the orders of the
Illuminati -- anyone who wants to feel like they are bigger or better or stronger or more powerful, and
can step outside the authority of the Illuminati and live -- will be eliminated. We also laundered drug
money. But you need to understand that these particular alters don't live in the outside world, they live
within the mind, within the construct of the mind. When they are needed, they are accessed through a
specific code, they are brought up to awareness, to the front of the mind. They are then given the
program as to where they are to be, what they are supposed to do, and then after they have done the job
they are immediately traumatized again through electrical shock. That memory is shattered again in the
mind and then they are put to sleep until the next time. They have no awareness of what's going on in the
outside world, or that there is even another world except for the world they are programmed to function
in.
Wayne Morris:
The electroshock served to wipe out the memory of the operation?
Cisco Wheeler:
As long as you do it within 48 hours.
Wayne Morris:
You and Fritz have been going public with this information. I understand you have been doing a number
of radio shows, you have written books and people have contacted you about that. What kind of
response have you gotten from the public with the information you are presenting?
Cisco Wheeler:
We have had very positive response from a lot of therapists, psychologists, psychiatrists, ministers,
people within our own government. We were just told several weeks ago that there are two congressmen
who are reading the books and they are pleased with what has been written, because they know what we
have written is factual and they are glad that it is getting out to the public. We have had people say that
next to God's word, this book should be in every home, on every shelf, in every library ... Of course it
has shattered a lot of their dreams and foundational structuring they have had within their own
environment whether that is home or school or church, because things aren't as they seem. People who
are truth-seekers are willing to pay that price because that may be the only way they can save themselves
and their children.
Wayne Morris:
So some of the professionals who have come across your information have dealt with these issues in
their own work ...
Cisco Wheeler:
Oh most definitely. My work has been confirmed by a number of professionals, and they say it's right
on. Some of them have worked with multiples for twenty or twenty-five years, and they have confirmed
my work.
Wayne Morris:
And what generally is the response from people who have not been exposed to this, just the general
public?
Cisco Wheeler:
It's like a culture shock. If you can imagine going into Japan and not being able to speak Japanese - you
wouldn't even know how to get a cup of coffee if you wanted one.
Wayne Morris:
And it must be even more of a shock because it's own culture they are confronting.
Cisco Wheeler:
It severs the traditional lies because if you are going to work in truth and you are going to have integrity
then you have to see what is in front of you. Our book certainly puts on a light on the darkness so you
can see what has happened to you. It's not only multiples who are programmed - the world is
programmed. We are programmed to believe our presidents are men of honour, men of great integrity.
Our presidents are rotten bastards - they are pedophiles, they are drug addicts, they practise high magic,
they practise ritual. They think nothing of live sacrifice of small children. They think nothing of having
their own slaves available to them. That's the way it is, that's the truth.
Wayne Morris:
In terms of the books you've written - how much have they gotten out to the public - is it yourselves who
are distributing them or do you have distributors?
Cisco Wheeler:
We are self published. If we had a publishing company distributing them, the Illuminati would buy them
all up and have the right to them, and we would lose our books.
Wayne Morris:
They would just disappear ...
Cisco Wheeler:
They would just disappear. We can't risk that.
Wayne Morris:
I also wanted to ask you - are you aware of your father's connection to any of the people involved in the
CIA MKULTRA projects?
Cisco Wheeler:
Definitely. He was Dr. Green's left hand man. Dr. Green trained him. Also, Dr. Star, Dr. Blue, Dr.
White ... these are alibi names. I know their real names but for the sake of survivors who might be
listening, I prefer not to trigger them. That would be a very dangerous thing for me to do.
Wayne Morris:
What more do you think the public can do to help victims of mind control? What can the average person
do to help?
Cisco Wheeler:
The average person can be a support person, they can contact ministers who are working with
MKULTRA mind control survivors, they can contact therapists and say 'I've learned about MKULTRA,
about mind control - I'm just beginning to have a picture of what has happened to these individuals who
have been traumatized from their birth'. Ask 'how can I help you?' Can I work with you as a therapist, as
a minister, as a layman - can I work with you to understand what mind control is? And as I grow and as I
understand this subject at a deeper level, then can I reach out and be that hand extended to a survivor out
there? Can I be there when they have ritual holidays that are approaching, when their mind wants to
have flashbacks as to what happened to them during those ritual holidays? Can I be there to help that
individual who can't get out of their house because they are so trauma-bound at this time because they
are working on programs or they are fearful for their life and they won't even go to the grocery store
because they are terrified? Can I be there to wash that dish because that survivor may not have the
strength because she or he is working on their issues, and they are too weak to even do dishes. Can I be
there to sit in the middle of the night listening to you because you are in so much pain from what you
remembered? Can I be there at night to hold your hand? Can I be there to support you? Those are the
little things that give stability to continue because you have to understand, as a survivor, in order to go
towards health, everything that was done to us, in order to come out of this healthy, we have to re-live
every trauma that was ever done to us. We have to know it with the full impact of our emotions, every
sense of ourselves with these five senses that God gave us. We have to see it, smell it, touch it, hear it,
feel it.
Wayne Morris:
It's just so difficult for people to understand what you have to go through.
Cisco Wheeler:
I can speak for myself and only for myself because I have experienced it - some of the memories I have
had to go through in order to go towards health - as I was going through the memory I would lose
control of the process which I needed to work. There's a certain process in retrieving memories that you
need to focus on that - there are certain things that you need to do to keep the memory intact, so that the
mind doesn't re-splinter itself. If the memory of what was done to you is so powerful that it splintered
your mind when you were traumatized. Every memory we have re-traumatizes us. It's a process - it's
something you have to learn, over and over again - because every memory has a different feeling. Every
memory has a different purpose behind it.
So those who want to be there to help need to learn about mind control. There are many people out there
who are working with survivors and they need a break too. They need to have a few days off once in a
while, and they need to be able to have a good night's sleep. They need to know that if they want to go
and do something special for themselves, that the survivor they are leaving is not going to be harassed
all night or is not going to be contacted or is not going to walk out of that house and walk into a trap
where they will be re-programmed or tortured. Because the Illuminati is just waiting for a slave to make
a mistake and walk out of her house and meet their handlers. All programmed slaves have handlers, and
they are just waiting for us. They answer to the Illuminati and their job is to make sure they punish us
for what we have done, and that is that we have spoken against the family, we have seen what has been
done to us, and we have not held our tongues, we have told, we have talked. And there is a great
punishment that comes with that.
Wayne Morris:
For people listening who feel they may have been influenced by this kind of stuff, or know of people,
what is your advice for them?
Cisco Wheeler:
I would advise them to seek out a therapist who has had training, at least five years of training, with
MPD or DID victims. Who truly understand and believe that ritual abuse does exist on the planet earth.
If you are trying to work with someone who doesn't even believe that satanic ritual abuse exists, you are
wasting your time. If you are trying to work with someone who doesn't understand DID or MPD, you
are also wasting your time because we have no time to play, our minds won't allow us to, there is no
playfield here. This is a life and death issue. If you are not in the right setting and working with the right
person, they could cost you your life. There is a very high percentage of suicides in recovery for victims
of ritual abuse.
Wayne Morris:
In your experience Cisco - how important was it having a strong support system to be able to heal?
Cisco Wheeler:
On a one to ten scale - it's the top ten. Without a support system, you might as well forget it in my
opinion. I was one of the more fortunate ones in my healing process - I had Fritz Springmeier who was
my support team for many, many months and even into years he was there for me, twenty-four hours a
day, seven days a week, 365 days a year, day in and day out.
Therapists have this idea that - and I have heard top therapists say that it's all right to work with a
survivor - I prefer to use the word "victim" because we are continually victimized, internally and
externally. They say, "well we can spend the one or two hours a week with them and if they get picked
up by their handler, that's okay, because we have still made progress." I just about died when I heard this
the first time. I thought, man, if you were the one who was picked up by one of your handlers and you
were raped, or you were gun-raped, or you were bruised as bad as what I have been bruised, internally
and externally, you wouldn't be saying this. When they victimize you and they traumatize you and they
de-program you, only the front part of the system is told to tell their therapist they are doing very well.
The programs are so intact, and we are so fine-tuned that parts of yourself can be dying internally but
part of the system will go to work every day never knowing anything ever happened. It's pathetic. What
people do not understand is how severe the trauma is when your handlers get a hold of you and what you
could even do to yourself if you don't have someone there. When those programs go off they are hot -
they are hot as they were the day they were put in - whether that was twenty years or thirty years ago, it
doesn't make any difference - they are red-hot - and when I wanted to cut I wanted to cut myself - when
I wanted to burn - I would burn myself. There were times when I had to literally be held down because I
couldn't help myself because the programs were so powerful. Therapists don't understand, neither do
people understand the depth of the programming - to what extreme they went to ensure everything they
did to us would stay intact to be obedient to the laws that govern the Illuminati.
Wayne Morris:
So part of the role of your support team is in helping limit being re-accessed by your programmers?
Cisco Wheeler:
Oh yeah. And it takes a special individual like Fritz - I can only speak for myself because I don't know
anyone else who has been as fortunate as I was to have a support person who stayed with me during
those hard times. He stayed with me when it wasn't so hard, because there are lot of days that are good,
days that are bad. Where we got into trouble - our front system is extremely powerful - very high
functioning. They swore up and down that they weren't being contacted, threatened, no harm had come
to them in twenty years as far as they knew. That was their information. It doesn't work that way because
you have amnesia walls, you are not supposed to know. They go deep, deep into the system. I know the
front part of myself - the alters within the front part of my own mind - they made contracts with their
therapist, with Fritz, with God - there were certain things they wouldn't do. There were boundaries they
wouldn't cross - no, they wouldn't leave the house at 1 a.m. Well, you have sleep triggers and so forth
during certain ritual holidays. The minute that front system lays down, there are deep parts that are ready
and willing to go. The alters in the front of the mind go to sleep, the other alters slip out. The front alters
think they slept all night. Well, we have been playing all night. You know what I am saying?
Wayne Morris:
It must be devastating to realize they have affected you at such a deep level.
Cisco Wheeler:
You cannot make contracts for the deeper parts of the mind because the mind doesn't even know what's
going on within the front system, nor are they going to make it a commitment, because they are 100%
programmed. They are going to do what they are told to do because they know nothing else. They only
know the scripts which are running within their own mind.
Wayne Morris:
I think it's a testament to your courage and strength to be able to have broken the control as much as you
have, and to have gone through and dealt with what you have, and I think that sends out a hopeful
message to other mind control victims out there.
Cisco Wheeler:
There is lots of hope out there for mind control victims if they have a very strong support system. Like
with Fritz - he stayed with me 24 hours a day, and when it was bad, when I would go into memory and
be triggered by something and programs would kick in - he was there to support me - to help me talk it
through. And he taught me how to run the two tracks. One track I acknowledge as the program track and
the other track is the de-program track so that I could balance myself out and get back on my feet. You
can stay within a program for days if you don't have someone to teach you how to free yourself up from
the old messages.
Wayne Morris:
Can you explain how that worked? How you thought about the two tracks in terms of your breaking
control?
Cisco Wheeler:
In my mind, I have the first track set up as: I wanted my life to be new - I made a commitment that I
wanted a change of direction - I did not want to be what I was - I did not want to function in the degree
in which I functioned working within the Illuminati. I wanted nothing to do with it. I wanted to wash my
hands of it and walk away from it. I was very upset at what had been done to me, that my choices as an
individual had been taken away from me from infancy. I totally had to acknowledge that I was under
slavery. I didn't like it, and my choice was 'I'm out of here - I am going to find a way to get out of here if
it's the last thing I do - I would rather be dead than to serve them." And I still feel that way and it's been
several years. I still feel very strongly that I would rather be dead than to serve them. I had to come to
terms with the fact that I had to find a new way to function. Okay - I have a new track here and on that
track I am going to go right across it in an unprogrammed state. You have to see the power, or realize in
your mind how good it feels to be able to have a choice that you can make freely because that's what
they have taken away from you.
If you are a child and you have learned to walk and you go outside and get hit by a car, and your legs are
crushed, and you have to be in a cast for months and months and you have to re-walk when those casts
are taken off -- as a survivor I have learned to walk. I had to learn to crawl, I had to learn to walk, now I
can run, it's a process.
I also know that I have a second track which is the old messages put in by the programmers which lead
me in a state of total 100% mind control, under the influence of the old script, the old programs. I know
when I am in that state, I am in a dangerous state. That's when I would cut myself, run away, didn't want
to live, all the negatives in life. When the programs kick in from the subconscious to conscious
awareness, the memories trigger the programs, they reveal themselves with the full impact of the trauma
when they layered it into our minds so many years ago.
Cisco Wheeler:
In deprogramming we have to unravel the programming script and find the lie. When you find the lie
then you can put the light on it and the lie loses its power. That's where the miracle is. Your programs
are lies. That's all they are. Was I an ugly little girl? No. I wasn't. Children aren't ugly. Children are
beautiful. I found the lie. They lied to me. Did anybody ever love me? As far as the cult was concerned
no one could ever love me except the family because I was unlovable. Because of the crimes that were
done to me, they put the guilt and the responsibility on me instead of taking the responsibility for their
own acts as adults. They gave me the responsibility and I wore the coat of many colours. I had to weave
a new coat and that's where the two tracks help.
Wayne Morris:
It seems that they have been able to continue doing these horrific acts against other people by not taking
responsibility or not taking blame for their own actions and externalizing that.
Cisco Wheeler:
I believe that for every survivor out there - when you were programmed in the womb and you were
100% under their control - when they tell you to cry, you cry. When they tell you to scream, you scream.
When they tell you to eat, you eat. Every facet of your life is totally controlled by them. When Fritz
found a part in my system, and he told me I was a little girl, I just looked at him and told him, "you're
crazy, I am not a little girl, I am a kitten." I looked in the mirror and I had a porcelain face and on that a
face is a kitten and that's how they programmed me. They had so dehumanized me as a sex kitten that I
didn't even know I was a child. When I went through the memories so I could have an identity for
myself, I realized that to be a little girl was the most painful thing in the whole world, because every
time I was human in any sense of the word, or I thought I had any humanism as far as being a little girl, I
was so severely tortured that I reached a place in my own mind that I never wanted to be a little girl. It
was too painful to be a little girl.
They set up two cages for us - one cage was full of nice, beautiful little kittens - white, calico, black,
persian gray. I was in the cage next to them with a pan that was hooked to electrical current. Every time
I wanted water or to eat something, and I touched that pan, I was shocked. That's just one little example.
I was shamed, I was spit on, totally humiliated in that cage for being a little girl. The Illuminati, Dr.
Green, my father, made sure that the kittens were fed whatever they wanted to eat. They were loved,
petted, cooed at - just loved - for a number of days. After all the trauma I had gone through, I guess my
little mind decided not to be the little girl, but to be a kitten. The kittens get to eat, are not lying in their
feces naked, they are not being shamed, spit on, kicked. When I had memories of this, my body was so
bruised from the kicks I had received from the Illuminati family in the programming that I had to wear
the bruises on my body until I worked through the memory. That just gives you a little example of how
far they go to make sure they get what they want.
Wayne Morris:
Extremely sadistic.
Cisco Wheeler:
I haven't thought about it in about three years, but these little kittens are very powerful in my mind today
as I am talking on the phone. I see these kittens, and how well they were treated. My father totally
rejected me at that point. I loved my father very much because I was conditioned to do so. I loved him in
his gentleness, and in his weakness and his strength, and when he was bad. It didn't matter because the
mind was set up to accept whatever he was.
Wayne Morris:
Do you feel your father was also a victim of programming?
Cisco Wheeler:
I have no doubt in my mind that my father was a multiple. My father was a genius at every level, but he
had a gentle side, he was a musician as well as satanist. Like I said, he worked for the CIA, he was a
33rd degree Mason plus - there are many levels beyond 33 by the way. He was a Grand Master. He sat
on the Grand Druid Council. He was a very wise man, just not wise in the right things. It's too bad that
his learning hadn't been applied in other directions - he would have gone far. I can't respect my father for
who he is.
Wayne Morris:
Do you think he had a choice in the matter?
Cisco Wheeler:
No. I don't because it was generational. He was trapped as I was trapped. But the difference between me
and my father is that there was a part of my father that knew, even when the good side of my father that
loved his family, worked in the workplace, was in the military -- there is a real positive part about my
father. He was a people lover, he loved people and people loved him. But I think there was a time in my
father's life when he realized what he was and what he was doing, I think the barriers within his own
mind, within his own multiplicity, had broken down to the point that he knew, but he also knew he was
in over his head. It would cost him his life to move away or to change directions. He was too far in.
Wayne Morris:
Then obviously the difference being that you chose, you made the choice to break away and to fight that.
Cisco Wheeler:
Right. And there is a wilful act within the family, the Illuminati family, there is a wilful act there. And I
can honestly say the things we did, we did because we were groomed. We were programmed to do so,
but when the light was put on, and we did the memory work, and we had a free choice to say "do we or
don't we?" our system didn't want to. We wanted to do right, we wanted that hope, that chance to be
what we really wanted to be that was born into us, and that was to be good. That's the simplest way to
say it. I still feel very childish, I feel like a child that wants to be good. I don't want to be bad. I don't like
what was done to me and I don't like what has been done to others. It's been totally unfair. It has
destroyed many, many lives. The one thing that I wanted to say is that when I first came out of the
system and Fritz was working with me on a daily basis, I asked him, "these children in the world? do
their fathers rape them?" He said, "no, good fathers do not rape their children." It threw me for a loop,
and I stood there and I looked at him and said, "I really feel sorry for these children in this world
because they are not loved." He said, "oh but they are loved" and I said, "oh no - if the fathers aren't
raping their children, then they are not loved." I thought rape was love. That's pretty sick.
Wayne Morris:
They just turned those ideas upside down.
Cisco Wheeler:
The first time I had ever had a tear in my eye was when he told me that little girls and little boys aren't
normally raped by their fathers, that is not the standard of living in which we live. And that upset me to
such a point - that was the first time I ever felt a tear on my face. Because I really felt so bad that
children were not being loved by their fathers. And it took me a long time to understand the difference,
because right is wrong, and wrong is right, that's how you are programmed. Isn't it something, when you
really think about it? I look back on it now, and I cannot believe the ability they had to do to my mind
and so many other survivors out there. To what degree they would go.
Wayne Morris:
Especially to children.
Cisco Wheeler:
At Inucurran (sp) they had cages on the walls. They put us in the cages and the monkeys or the apes got
to take care of us. We had three of them. One fed us, one beat us, and one raped us to dehumanize us.
Wayne Morris:
... God ... oh boy ...
Cisco Wheeler:
I still wake up and here I am in my fifties and when I was working on my memories at Inucurran (sp) in
the cages -- well see, whatever they want in the system -- if they want a particular part in the mind to be
a particular something they had to set the stage for that to come about.
Wayne Morris:
So that they are manipulating a particular context to achieve a certain end ...
Cisco Wheeler:
Yes, a certain image within the mind. A child has creativity but they have to give us the creativity from
which to work from because you have to understand that the mind is protected by the family in that it is
hidden within itself, like a box within itself -- boxes and boxes, many boxes and each box has a family
within the mind or it's all set up like a grid. A 13x13 grid and 13 deep, so your hidden parts get no
influence from or to the outside world. When I came out into the world and I met Fritz, I had never
known what the world was. I had the freedom of knowing how to go to the grocery store or where was it
or what was it. I didn't know because I was only programmed to do what they wanted me to. They would
wake me up, give me my programs, put me on the right track as to where they wanted me to be. I would
go do what they wanted me to do, as soon as I did it, back to sleep I went. I had no influence.
When Fritz told me that I had a family and a mother that was still living I thought the man was crazy.
Here's something else that will just throw you for a loop -- I have seven grandchildren, that means I have
three children of my own that are grown. When he introduced me to my son when he was thirty (he's a
pilot) out of courtesy I just said, well it's very nice to meet you in my mind. Afterwards I told Fritz, you
are absolutely crazy. You think I'm crazy -- you guys, you've had it. You're telling me I am programmed
as a kitten, a sex kitten, and when I look in the mirror I see a porcelain face, a kitten's face, and I am 17
years old and I am not supposed to age. When you look at me and I am fifty years old, and you look at
me and take a picture of me I am 17. I still look 17, but the point is I was so totally 100% programmed
that when Fritz wanted to give me the truth about what happened to my life, my mind couldn't even
receive it because I had so much programming. It took me two years to realize I wasn't a kitten before I
believed him. Two years of hard work every single day to break down the lies. That's how strong my
defence was. I looked at all these kids and this is what I said to Fritz: "Fritz you are absolutely crazy.
You expect me to believe that this is my son. You are telling me that my son is thirty years old. I have
no recall. I didn't carry him." I didn't remember him when he played as a child. I had no identity with
this child whatsoever, that's how dark it was inside my world. I said, "He's thirty years old, and I am
seventeen -- wait a minute here Fritz, something doesn't add up. You're crazy. You expect me to bite that
apple? And I'm going to bite it and I'm going to believe this, right?" That's the way the mind is. That's
just one example. He introduced me to my mother, to my sisters. I had two sisters that I didn't know
about.
Wayne Morris:
So as you went through your memory work did you regain those parts of your life in terms of knowing
who your children were and ...
Cisco Wheeler:
I have had to build relationships. As I was able to get stronger and work on the memories -- first I had to
acknowledge the lie -- that is, that my father liked me. That was a very harsh lie for me. I could not
believe that my father had ever lied to me, not my father. I cannot express how hard it was for me to
acknowledge that my father lied to me. Because if I accepted the first lie, then I had to accept all the
other lies. I didn't want to. I did not want my father defaced. As time went on, months went on, then I
had to face what he was and what he had done to others. If he did this to me and I was his child, oh my
God, what has he done to so many other children being a programmer? And that just about killed me.
Wayne Morris:
Again, that must have been devastating to you.
I would like to thank you very much Cisco for joining us on this show. I know it's very difficult to talk
about these issues, and I really admire your enormous courage in exposing this.
Cisco Wheeler:
Thank you very much, thank you for asking.
Wayne Morris:
We have been listening to an interview with Cisco Wheeler, a survivor of Illuminati family and U.S.
government mind control. Tapes of this radio series are finally available at the office of CKLN, 380
Victoria in Juergenson Hall on Ryerson University campus. Tapes are $8.00 each and transcripts are
$3.00 each. Catalogues are available listing all the shows. I would like to spend this next few minutes
just commenting on last weekend's CBC docudrama - The Sleep Room. In my opinion it was a little too
heavy on the drama and too little on the docu based what we have heard on this radio series about Ewen
Cameron and his role in CIA mind control on children. It was a two part series, and the first part I found
particularly misleading in portraying Cameron as someone with "good but misguided" intentions --
especially using the reason that he left the Allen Memorial due to finding out his patients were not being
cured ... also for what it left out about Cameron's role in CIA mind control technology development,
including his involvement with experiments on children ... and other disinformation. The movie
portrayed the CIA's motive as being just to keep up to the Communists with mind control technology,
and the portrayal that the CIA just started experimenting with mind control when it is a documented fact
that the CIA had been producing mind control programmed agents ten years previous to that. They also
portrayed Cameron as not being concerned with military and intelligence applications for his work -- I
find that a little hard to swallow. And not being aware of electroshock's effects of wiping out memory --
when he was an electroshock expert and trained many other psychiatrists how to use electroshock. Other
disinformation was that the experiments didn't "amount to anything" and were ultimately useless to the
CIA when they have taken mind control technology far beyond what was portrayed and that it was
useless is a lie. If CBC had done its homework, maybe they wouldn't be perpetrating this lie. I don't
know, maybe they would. They made no attempt to link Cameron to the other well documented doctors
involved in MKULTRA or what they were trying to accomplish, what their end goal was in creating
Manchurian Candidate type mind control operatives.
The second part of the "docudrama" dealt with the survivors' battle for legal justice. Some good things I
thought were the portrayal of the Canadian government reps covering up for the CIA and the sheer
sliminess of the CIA scum lawyers. However, it may have had the effect on people who were watching
it, especially on people who aren't aware of what is going on in mind control that justice was eventually
served -- even though the amount of money that the survivors received was really a joke in light of what
these people went through. I felt that CBC considers this movie now closes the book on mind control
atrocities, and that's far from the truth. These atrocities, as we have heard in this series, are continuing
today.
I thought it was unusual that David and Valerie Orlikow were excluded from being characters in the film
when they were the driving force behind the lawsuit and also particularly because David was a Canadian
Member of Parliament and the weight that would have carried to bring about the suit. I think it may have
been satisfying for survivors of Cameron's atrocious experiments to have seen the movie and how the
survivors were portrayed in their search for justice, but the reality is that these people were not the only
victims of Cameron and all of the other mind control doctors across Canada and the U.S. I do hope that
the movie is raising public awareness about mind control and what Cameron did, and hopefully it will
encourage public discussion about this, but I think many people might think that this happened a long
time ago, it was settled, end of story. Well, the story does not end there folks. It's continuing right here
on CKLN, and we are continuing the series next week. Stay tuned, we will have an interview with Brice
Taylor, former mind control slave used by the White House as a Presidential Model sex slave and by the
CIA and other intelligence groups, and she is also the author of the book "Starshine: One woman's
valiant escape from mind control".
You have been listening to CKLN 88.1 FM.


Brice Taylor Interview
See also Brice Taylor's Books
Mind Control Series
Part I - below
Part II

Good morning. You are tuned in again to The International Connection, and we are in Part 42 of
the ongoing interview series on mind control. Today we are bringing you part one of an interview
I conducted with Brice Taylor, a former Whitehouse-level mind control victim. She has been used
as a sex slave for a number of U.S. presidents, foreign officials, and other power-brokers while
under the influence of mind control. She has been subjected to horrific torture and abuse,
beginning in her childhood, at the hands of her family, and has been programmed at various
military bases in the U.S., and at NASA. She is the author of a fictionalized account of her life,
"Starshine: One woman's valiant escape from mind control", and since breaking free and
recovering, has been in touch with hundreds of mind control survivors across the U.S. Here now is
that interview:
Wayne Morris:
I am speaking to Brice Taylor, a survivor of mind control. Welcome to the show, Brice. I wonder if
you could start off by just giving a short description of who you are, and your background.
Brice Taylor:
Actually, "Brice Taylor" is a pseudonym that I chose to protect myself and my children when I
first started writing my book and putting it out. I am a ritual abuse, government mind control
survivor, and I have spent since 1985 working to heal from that and documenting what I was
involved with at the highest levels within our government and internationally as the people's
leaders are invested in bringing in the New World Order.
Wayne Morris:
Who was responsible initially for your programming and conditioning?
Brice Taylor:
Initially, up close, my father primarily was, at home on a daily basis, and my mother was also
programmed to abuse and program me. My whole family was actually involved in my
programming, including my grandparents on both sides, aunts, uncles and my brothers. As I grew
older, by the time I was five, I was being taken to military bases in and out of California and
officials there were programming me, and later, doctors at UCLA Neuropsychiatric Institute in
California, and places where there were NASA installations - I was also programmed.
Wayne Morris:
Do you remember when it started - the conditioning?
Brice Taylor:
I had actually some very early memories of being traumatized as an infant, so it started when I
was very, very young.
Wayne Morris:
What is your family's background, your father and grandfather in particular ...
Brice Taylor:
My background is intergenerational ritual satanic abuse, and I know that because my father flew
me back to Iowa where my grandfather lived and they involved me in satanic ritual there, and it
was then that I realized that my grandfather who was a millionaire and politician, was involved
and was also intergenerationally connected. It has gone back in the family for generations as far as
I know.
Wayne Morris:
Did your family learn in terms of the mind control programming or was it strictly in terms of
being traumatized by the satanic rituals?
Brice Taylor:
I have no way of knowing what my parents' duties or jobs were during their early lifetimes, but I
believe that my father was made into a multiple through the severe satanic ritual that happened to
him, so I don't believe that he was consciously operating with the programming of me, where all
parts of him knew what was going on, because I know he was a multiple. I watched him switch
into child personalities and all sorts of different entities that he became during the years.
Wayne Morris:
Was that caused by his father's conditioning of him?
Brice Taylor:
Yes. My Dad was severely tortured his whole life, had a very abusive childhood, and as I was
healing and able to look back, he even had several near-death experiences due to accidents that I
think were perhaps his programming kicking up as mine did later on.
Wayne Morris:
Were there government or military connections in your family?
Brice Taylor:
Not to the public, but certainly I was shuffled and taken into the government and military bases,
but as far as being publicly connected, no.
Wayne Morris:
Do you know how they had made that connection with the military in terms of turning you over to
them?
Brice Taylor:
I believe that whole connection came with my grandfather who was a politician, and it seemed like
once I met him (I had never met him until I was nearly ten years old and my father flew me to
Iowa to meet him) - it was shortly after that I started being connected to all sorts of famous
politicians and entertainers, and a lot of different people. So I believe it was through my
grandfather.
Wayne Morris:
Was your grandfather himself conditioned, or was he knowledgeable about the techniques of
conditioning for the purpose of mind control?
Brice Taylor:
I have no way of knowing ... all I know is that he tortured me and my father was there, and there
were usually a lot of other men. I have only my own experience and what I believe to be the truth
for my father is that although they created these heinous things, and did all of this, that he was
programmed also. I can't answer that for my grandfather. I wasn't around him enough.
Wayne Morris:
Can you describe for our listeners what kinds of things were done to you that you remember as a
child?
Brice Taylor:
It is always hard for me to go back into this, it seems that no matter how many years go by, it is
still very painful. There was trauma done in the form of being stuck with pins and needles, being
burned, hung by my feet - sometimes to crosses, spun, dropped off a table as an infant, near
drowning, sexual abuse and orgies, being drugged, food and sleep deprivation, and then adding to
that when I was around five, was all of the military mind control that was done with very
sophisticated instrumentation and chairs and electroshock ... That was all done to create a
shattered psyche that I believe was used later for all these different personalities that were created
for the mind control purpose.
Wayne Morris:
Were you used by the military at the bases as a child, or was that later in your life?
Brice Taylor:
I was taken to bases in Long Beach, California as a child where they used very sophisticated
means of light, sound combined with electroshock and drugs and all sorts of torture and hypnosis.
Wayne Morris:
Do you feel that your family had kind of laid in the base conditioning in terms of creating
dissociation within you, and then more sophisticated mind control later, or were they
programming you as well?
Brice Taylor:
My father was absolutely programming me as well, he did the base programming and a lot of the
trauma-based conditioning, and then these other layers of more sophisticated programming were
put in on top of that.
Wayne Morris:
In terms of your father's public life, what was his public image?
Brice Taylor:
My father was a welder, he was certainly everything any father was supposed to be. He provided
well for his family, and was seen as a very charming man. No one had any idea, including his own
physician, and I am not sure I understand that either because this man was creating so much
torture and trauma in his children.
Wayne Morris:
Was your mother a co-perpetrator, did she have knowledge of what was going on?
Brice Taylor:
My mother also abused me in a lot of different ways, and I thought at the time when I was
recovering my memory and going through all of this that my mother had done this on purpose. It
wasn't until I healed to the level to be able to go back and confront her with all the different
traumas, and tortures and abuses - that I saw her cry and she said to me "it's not that I don't
believe you, it's just that I can't remember." I felt very strongly that my mother actually may at a
subconscious level have known that she had participated, however she couldn't remember.
However, she wasn't discounting what I said which was very unusual for most survivors. Usually
their parents say, "this never happened" - my mother did not do this. In fact she went on to help
fund financially my book when I was running for my life and had no source of income. She has
helped me even today, although she still only cries and has not any of her own memories.
Wayne Morris:
Do you have memories of your mother being involved in the cult activity as well?
Brice Taylor:
Yes. I have memories of my mother being tortured and traumatized in satanic rituals that were
done at some churches that we went to at night. My mother was a battered wife, she doesn't
remember a lot of it but my father battered her and some of the personalities he had were abusive
and others weren't. So my mother was absolutely tortured, and I know that she was programmed
in a sophisticated way in order to deliver me off in time to the airport late at night or early in the
morning when I was being used internationally, and with high level leaders in our government,
and with entertainers and she doesn't remember any of that. However to this day she has trouble
driving to the airport and doesn't understand why it is so frightening for her. Those are the kind
of indications to me that she really knows but she can't remember, because of programming.
Wayne Morris:
Has she attempted to get help for herself?
Brice Taylor:
My Mom did, and my Mom is nearly 80 years old. She said to me "I am afraid I will come apart
and I won't be able to function", because she watched me become severely dysfunctional to where
I couldn't even take care of myself or anybody else in order to heal. She said she felt her greatest
help would be able to help me financially and to be able to be there with my children, who I am
not able to have much contact with at this point. My Mother is a victim, and now that I have done
my complete healing and realized that my life with my children was very similar to the one that
she led with me, I have some very deep compassion for her and wish that in her time it would have
been for her to heal, but I understand. I know what it took for me to go through the healing
process. It was years, and it was over $250,000 worth of therapy and bodywork, and all sorts of
healing modalities ... so I understand what it has taken in the past to heal and what it would take
for her as an older person. I was in therapy daily. My Mother is an incredibly strong person, even
in her late 70's, she is working in the capacity that she can, and it's pretty miraculous actually.
Wayne Morris:
When you were a child, did you attempt to tell anybody about the abuses, or were you even
somewhat aware?
Brice Taylor:
It's interesting that you ask that Wayne, because when I was deprogramming and reintegrating, I
had a lot of memories, and one of the specific ones that I had explains this. I had a personality in
elementary school that was programmed to do child pornography and the way it was done was
that I was taken out of my classroom at school in order to go to be taken to what they called "choir
practice". My church was very close locally, so they would take me out of class to be taken to the
choir director's home to practice "choir" during schooltime. What ended up happening was that
once we got there, and put on our choir robes, the whole thing turned and changed, and we
stopped singing. And we went downstairs in the basement to be filmed in pornography and all
sorts of heinous ritualistic pornographic, everything filmed with all sorts of equipment. This one
day by the time I was taken back to school with the other children, I had for some reason not
switched out of that personality. I went to the school principal's office and I told her that this had
happened and I was talking in all these terms with sexual language and things that she found very
distasteful, and I remember her shaking her finger at me and saying, "stop talking like this, this is
disgusting, children shouldn't be speaking like this". I got punished for that like I did lots of
different subsequent times when I attempted to tell what was going on - I always ended up getting
punished. Yes, I did attempt to tell and whether this woman, the principal, was herself
programmed ... I have since learned from my own experience that oftentimes there will be a whole
web of people in a community - the professionals, the educational system, the church system - and
everyone in that community will be programmed and have been ritually abused and they attend
rituals at night without even knowing it in an attempt to keep the whole community traumatized
and programmed. So, yes I did try to tell. It took until very late on in my life for people to start
listening.
Wayne Morris:
Did this principal inform your parents of what you were saying?
Brice Taylor:
No.
Wayne Morris:
Where did you grow up?
Brice Taylor:
I grew up in California in Woodland Hills - it was southern California - about 20 minutes inland
from Malibu.
Wayne Morris:
Do you know if as a child you were displaying signs of abuse that teachers could have picked up
on?
Brice Taylor:
Thinking back now, just even that example that I described to you where I had knowledge of
sexual behaviour and language that was well beyond the understanding of a child - I was always
labelled as mischievous, getting in trouble in school, acting out. I was always the class clown. I
think I did have even physical signs that teachers today would possibly pick up, and probably even
the difference in my personalities had to have shown. I had obvious switches, where I was
switching in and out of different personalities. I know that because when I reintegrated there were
a lot of different school personalities that had been created to handle school. I am sure that when
teachers and other adults begin to have more information about dissociative identity disorder and
all of this abuse that they will have the eyes to see.
Wayne Morris:
When did you first realize that you were subjected to mind control?
Brice Taylor:
The memory of the actual mind control involvement started to come to light in 1988 after several
years of thinking I was crazy, having the accident, and all of that. In 1988 I realized there was
more than I was just "crazy, nuts, confused".
Wayne Morris:
You had memories of the ritual abuse before that?
Brice Taylor:
In 1985 I had a head injury. I had a head-on collision where my head went through the windshield
of the car. What that did was it allowed me to access both sides of my brain for the first time in my
life, and I began having memories - very frequent memories of all sorts of abuse that came in such
a way that it was difficult for me to continue to process it all. There was just so much of it. There
were years of memories that came flooding in. As my programming dictated, when those
memories initially in 1985 started coming in, I just thought I was crazy. I was programmed to
believe that if anything came up, I would just think I was crazy. In 1987 I had another accident on
the same date as the head-on collision where I broke my back and smashed my head again riding a
horse. It was on April 12 at 9:15 in the morning which was the same time as my 1985 head-on
collision. The result of that accident was more very vivid flashback memories that came in the
form of visual flashes, body memories where I felt agony, my body felt drugged. Very specific
places in my body had pain. Once I learned through my daily therapy to begin to process that, I
learned what it all meant. I would like to explain that during this time I was in school working
towards my Master's Degree in Clinical Psychology to be a psychologist - when all of this memory
started breaking through. This made me have to quit school before I graduated, but it gave me a
lot of information about the psychological process and what I would need to go through to heal.
Wayne Morris:
It seems really unusual that you would have the two accidents on the same day at the same time.
Do you feel that they were arranged - or at least the second one?
Brice Taylor:
I believe that it was definitely arranged, and I believe that because what happened in 1991 on
April 10th which was 2 days before the anniversary of the accident date - I received a dollar bill in
my wallet that had programming numbers and the date April 12th written across it. When I
showed it to my therapist they realized this was intentional. Every time they sent things like this in
to me, it was just another validation of reality for me.
Wayne Morris:
Do you think they would have programmed you to ride into that tree the second time?
Brice Taylor:
I think I was programmed to have an accident if I became dangerously close to remembering, and
I think that once I had the first accident that they may have tied the second one to it in an attempt
to kill me. I really don't know that. I know I was still being used. I continued to be used even when
I thought I was free in 1991 and 1992, and even into 1993. I believe they were attempts to injure
me to the point where I could function. I don't know. I don't have all the answers.
Wayne Morris:
From what you know from other survivors' experiences, do you feel that's a common technique
for killing people if they do come too close to remembering?
Brice Taylor:
Yes, I do. I think that as people are educated and become more aware, they will be able to see
more clearly what has happened. I received letters from survivors, it began nationally, and now I
receive letters from all over the world from survivors who have had all kinds of head injuries,
strokes, all kinds of programmed accidents. Fortunately for all of us, and unfortunately for our
controllers, what it has done is that it has actually made the brain barriers easier to access and to
remove some of the amnesic barriers so that people who are having these accidents are beginning
to remember more and more.
Wayne Morris:
Just in the news recently - the fatal accidents that Michael Kennedy and Sonny Bono had - skiing
into a tree - sound very familiar. That's immediately what came to my mind. How did you manage
to break free of their control, at what point did that happen?
Brice Taylor:
I was in daily therapy from 1987 on, and sometimes twice a day. So I was writing memories at
home, in therapy. I was drawing. I was having bodywork. I was doing just about everything to
heal. So I had healed and had begun to integrate a lot of my personalities so when in 1991 I
received that dollar bill with my accident date written on it ... At that point I had connected with
Dr. Catherine Gould who is a therapist in California who has worked for years with children who
had DID and have been ritually abused. I met her actually when I was in school along my venture
to be a therapist, and so she started giving me information as I was asking her questions about
programming. She was able to give me a little information. No one who was around me - neither of
my therapists had ever heard of ritual abuse or had worked with anyone at all with MPD - no one
who was working with me really understood what I was talking about. Once I realized there was
such a thing as mind control, the programming just started unfolding. Parts of me that knew
about the programming that had been done started filling up journals listing my specific
programming and how it worked; drawing pictures that I share in workshops that I do. I began to
understand that there was a lot more to this than I could ever imagine, and I was afraid for my life
and for my children's lives. I didn't know what to do. My therapist helped relocate me to an island
on Hawaii and I went there and I was only going to spend a week trying to get clear on what I
should do. I started realizing that my ex-husband was also a victim of this, and that there was a lot
more going on. I went to this island, thinking I would only spend a week, and I ended up there for
five weeks and returned in an attempt to rescue my children. During the time I was there, I had a
lot of the higher level memories of my government and entertainer involvement. Being on the
island, I had no money and very little support. I had a couple who helped me. I got a word
processor and lived very frugally and just wrote and continued bringing back the memories and
writing every day and re-integrating. With all of that, I realized that I had been used at very high
levels within our own government. To help combat the programming that said I was crazy, I
began to be strong enough of my own mind and body to be able to recognize when people were
sent in on me to access me. I would be programmed to call back into a number and I was advised
to keep doing that until I was healthy enough to really break free. I would call in, and these men
would be on the phone, and they validated my reality of what I was remembering in a way that I
am grateful to them now. I had no way of understanding before why men in suits would be
following me in cars around L.A. and all over the place. It started making sense to me and I was
able to put it together. In 1991 I was healing at a rampant rate, but I was still being accessed and
used on the island. I was still being prostituted along with my daughter on the island. It was pretty
devastating when I healed and realized it, but I was still healing and that's how I realized what
was really going on.
Wayne Morris:
Do you know up to what point your perpetrators were still using you?
Brice Taylor:
I am not sure if I have the date right, but I believe it was actually until just before our current
president was inaugurated was one of the last times I was used.
Wayne Morris:
When you were dealing with your first therapist you said they weren't really aware of mind
control techniques. What kind of work were you doing with them? Were you doing memory work
at that point?
Brice Taylor:
I started out just doing psychotherapy and analysis - it's absolutely insane to be doing that with
someone under mind control - but they had no way of knowing. I was just doing straight
psychotherapy and the memories started flooding in from the accidents, the trauma, and as I
began to feel safer - that there was someone who, even if they didn't understand ... My therapist
looked at me all the time like I was nuts. I was just coming up with all this abuse. The childhood
abuse came up first, and then the ritual abuse memories came on the heels of the sexual abuse, and
then the government mind control stuff came.
Wayne Morris:
So working with those initial therapists - you started remembering the government mind
control ... At the point where they had stopped using you, or you were able to avoid being used,
was there something you had done to prevent that? What was the situation?
Brice Taylor:
Actually I worked with a renegade member of the intelligence community who I lived with for a
year and a half, and he was able to help me through identifying my codes, keys and triggers, what
my programming was. We actually spent a year and a half in the house where he would trigger me
and I would just go into my room and write and write and write, volumes of memory work where
I would just go right back in ... I had been programmed to have a photographic memory and
traumatic memory is laid down differently than normal memory is stored. I was able to not only
see and hear, but use all my senses to go back into these memories and document it all. Over time
there was no way I had any information or could have known about any of this top secret, still
classified projects or the level of political sophistication and the interconnection of politicians and
world leaders that I was used with.
Wayne Morris:
Are you aware, or do you know how they programmed you to have photographic memory?
Brice Taylor:
It was a hypnotic command done under hypnosis with drugs and specific personalities.
Wayne Morris:
You have written a book about your account. "Starshine: One woman's valiant escape from mind
control", and within that book you mentioned some electronic, harmonics equipment to help with
your memory retrieval and deprogramming. Could you describe that and other forms of
technology that were helpful?
Brice Taylor:
The harmonic equipment that I spoke about in the book was actually explained to me by this
member of the intelligence community - that was some of the specific programming equipment
that had been used to program people. It could be used to deprogram people. However, since then
I have not been able to get anybody within the government obviously to bring this equipment out
publicly. But I do have some very good hope for people that have been through this to heal, and
the closest that I know of help for people ... In fact, I am now in the process of beginning to open a
business for EEG biofeedback. There is a company in California that is one of many around the
country called "EEG Spectrum" and basically it is a way of a person working through with a
computer game that is monitoring your own brain waves, where a survivor or anyone is able to
begin to realize what brainwave state they are in. Survivors are usually heavy Theta accessed -
they are in Theta a lot. Basically what this does is to help people stay more into the Beta which is
their conscious, alert awareness and learn that way. One of the beauties of EEG biofeedback is
that however a person has been traumatized, and most people born into these generations on the
earth now have been traumatized in whatever way -- the trauma begins to be encoded physically
and therapy alone over time doesn't affect the body/mind connection in the way that this EEG
biofeedback reintegrates brain function so the body/mind can begin to be dealt with. I bought the
equipment and began working with my daughter at home during a few months when I was able to
have her, and it borders on being miraculous. Of course she was very afraid it was like mind
control, but it brought her out of catatonic states and made her be able to function in ways that
she wasn't able to. I would say that the EEG biofeedback equipment and technology is the closest I
know to help victims with memory retrieval and deprogramming - it is gentler, kinder and
without so much body pain memory. It's EEG Spectrum and there are affiliates all over the nation
and it is 1-800-789-3456. [http://www.eegspectrum.com/ (Found via AltaVista)]
Wayne Morris:
With this kind of equipment - was it that you were able to see your brainwave activity and then
adjust your own thinking to deal with it? How did that work?
Brice Taylor:
Basically you are fed back a "reward" so it's like - it's operant conditioning - just like a rate in a
maze. You are rewarded when pacman goes and you hear the sound accompanied with a reward.
It's a reward that rewards your central nervous system, so it's not like someone has to be an
intellectual or figure it out - the healing happens. I have been working with children with ADD
and ADHD and often within two or three sessions, kids that are 10 or 11 years old who have never
been able to read are reading ... they are saying, "I can read", and children who are on Ritalin are
coming off Ritalin because they are able to manage their brainwave state. So children can do it,
adults can do it, because it works with the central nervous system. It's very powerful and I think it
is very hopeful for the future.
Wayne Morris:
I would like to talk now about some of the techniques they used to condition and program you. Do
you remember how hypnosis was used to control and program?
Brice Taylor:
It was used in just about all of my earlier programming, whether it was my father or
programmers - I was taken a lot to Disneyland or different places where fantasy was intentionally
mixed with reality. Hypnosis was always used in conjunction with drugs, and often when I was at
military bases or NASA installations, it was used in conjunction with a very sophisticated chair
and instruments that went over my head - I was given electroshock and hypnotic commands with
drugs that they know are very useful in allowing that hypnotic command to go deeper than the
subconscious mind.
Wayne Morris:
What was the purpose of the drugs? Was that to make you more open to hypnosis?
Brice Taylor:
I think the drugs are used in a lot of different ways, certainly I am not a physician or a brain
surgeon to know how that all works. But I believe the drugs were used a lot to keep the conscious
mind out of the way in order to be able to take the programming to very deep levels.
Wayne Morris:
Just to open the subconscious ... And specifically, what was the purpose of electricity? What factor
did that play in mind control?
Brice Taylor:
As a child I was 'shocked' at home by bare electric cords, and as I began getting a little older -
with a cattle prod, and then stun guns as I was older still. And then later the hi-tech electronic
equipment at the bases. And I believe that's done for dissociation - as a person is shocked and
traumatized it affects your whole energy field and the trauma creates dissociation which allows
people to be programmed at very deep levels when your conscious mind is out of the way.
Wayne Morris:
Later on, with the more sophisticated programming, what was the role of electricity?
Brice Taylor:
I believe it is still the same thing. There are members of the intelligence community; there are ex-
military people who, it may take ten years, but they begin remembering being set in chairs with
electroshock, and drugs and hypnosis while they are being given the commands for their jobs or
assignments. I believe there is a lot more to be understood and learned about this as more and
more survivors are taken as credible sources of information and what they describe having seen in
the classified projects is brought to light in that way.
Wayne Morris:
Do you feel they also used electricity to make you forget?
Brice Taylor:
In fact a member of the intelligence community who helped me out told me that a stun gun is used,
and was used, because they believed it would erase memory twenty minutes on each side of the
memory. When an event happened, they would use a stun gun 20 minutes into it in order to erase
20 minutes before the event had happened, and 20 minutes after. They felt confident that would
erase the memory; however, I was able to access memory because I became a medicator
[meditator?], and I was able to access memory throughout all of it - throughout the electroshock,
through the drug barriers - there really was nothing that erased my memory in ways they thought
they did. None of their techniques to erase memory was satisfactory. Their techniques have fallen
short, and I think that's why there are so many survivors who are remembering.
Wayne Morris:
When you were remembering this, particularly the electricity, was it conscious memory, or did it
come back as more body memories, how did the memories appear?
Brice Taylor:
It came back in all ways in every day of my waking hour. I really had probably ten years of my life
(once I began healing) that was not my own either because I was so busy remembering, and
documenting through writing what I was remembering. The memories came through - things in
the environment would trigger me. I would see something and it would remind me subconsciously
and I would have a feeling, and I would follow that feeling and that memory back into my own
mind. The memory would just be there. I had flashbacks - where, during the flashback state -
information and experiences are very clear, and very vivid, and seem as if they are happening
even that moment - things that have happened 10, 20 years ago. I recovered memory a lot through
the flashback state and basically I kept a journal with me at all times. Anything that reminded me
or triggered me or made me feel funny, I wrote about it. Over time all these bits and pieces of
information that I wrote about all fell into line, even the ages I was versus the ages presidents were
when they were in office. Everything all fit together in a puzzle, a perfect picture, that I couldn't
have created if I had tried to.
Wayne Morris:
You mentioned the more sophisticated technology, particularly at NASA, and some of the military
bases. Can you describe that, and what effect they were trying to have on you?
Brice Taylor:
A lot of that was being sat in a chair that looked like the NASA space chairs, where I would be
strapped in. A lot of the equipment that I imagine was used by the astronauts was used on me. A
lot of the spinning, the weightlessness, being put into sensory deprivation tanks. Being subjected to
a lot of the light and sound along with electroshock. A lot of that where I was being delivered
information like, I would have on headphones and in one ear I would be hearing one sound and in
the other I would be hearing other sounds. I was programmed with tones, so a tone on a phone
would have a specific meaning that would be subliminally and subconsciously connected with a
command. When I was initially healing, when I would try and dial the phone, I would hit the
numbers and hear the tones in my ear, it would scramble me and I couldn't think straight. I
couldn't function. It was a matter of going back and consciously realizing that these tones were
connected to commands that I no longer needed to follow and it took several years for that not to
affect me. It still affects me; however, the equipment they used oftentimes in the auditory was
using one sound in one ear, and one sound in the other which confuses the conscious mind and
sends a message straight into the unconscious which is a very powerful way of controlling a
person.
Wayne Morris:
Do you know what kinds of things they deliberately did to prevent you from remembering?
Brice Taylor:
I don't have my diagram with me right now, but off the top of my memory, they gave me
programmed commands that should I begin remembering, I would become confused. Should I
begin remembering, I would feel tired and fall asleep. Should I begin remembering, I would have
migraine headaches. I would have accidents. I would want to kill myself and there were very
specific ways to self-injure that I was taught which I had to fight, literally, for a couple of years in
order to stay alive to get to the deeper levels of memory. There were endless, endless internal
landmines of boobytraps and programming that was intended to kill me or make me feel like I was
crazy or insane. Then when you add to that all the people outside - my family that was
programmed, the people who I was being perpetrated by, with all of that, it is nearly impossible to
begin remembering unless you have a head injury or something happens that really shakes a
person up. I also think that the continued trauma to myself, to my husband, to my children was
one of the biggest forms of attempting to keep me under control, because the innate mother
instinct is very strong and has been one that I have had to logically overcome in order to speak
out, knowing that my children will be safer if I spoke out than if I kept silent. There were also
phone accesses to codes that would be called, people would say either programmed phrases or set
certain numbers on the phone where the phone would then play in my ear. It is endless. A web.
Wayne Morris:
In terms of the actual programming that was done to you, was mainstream culture in any way?
You mentioned that you were taken to Disneyland ...
Brice Taylor:
I was programmed with all the regular fantasy that children go through. I saw the Disney films
and was heavily programmed to all of them - The Parent Trap, with the twin sisters - that was my
base programming for my twin sister programming which was the high level programming that
was used in the government to keep me from knowing what my internal twin sister who was
actually involved with the elite families and the government was doing. I was shown lots of movies
that had very profound programming - not that the movies were programs - but the way they
were used was. The film, Lost Horizons, I was programmed to be ageless unless I left. That's the
theme of the film - when you leave you start aging. I had a lot of programs where they won't age as
long as they stay in. The books and films, it was one tool of programming after another - and they
were all mainstream.
Wayne Morris:
Do you feel that films that are currently coming out are still being used for programming?
Brice Taylor:
Yes I do, and at a higher level. I think if people continue to ignore the profound and deep effect of
what children receive as visual and auditory images in childhood - the effect it has on their entire
psyche and the framework for which they set up belief systems. Even if they are not programming,
for the rest of their lives we need to be mindful of what children are seeing and I think people have
yet to look at how serious the havoc that is being wreaked on children really is. If people look with
the eyes of a child to the Disney films and to a lot of the things children are watching on television
and in movies, it is horrific.
Wayne Morris:
Was music used at all in your experience?
Brice Taylor:
I was even programmed with music to fall in love with my husband. The songs were linked with
my emotions in order to initiate a state of feeling that I was in love. I watched as years went by
that the music was played to me at very important times when I was to be used for something. I
also was used within the entertainment industry and saw how some of the current and very
famous and powerful musicians were programmed, and their music and certain phrases were
encoded. Oftentimes, I even delivered programmed phrases from the elite to these entertainers,
and delivered the words or the phrases they were to say during their performances when they
were live and on stage. I believe that a lot of people were programmed to want to be with these
people, or to revere them, or get hysterical, see them all the time, idolize them so that they would
continue to return to these mass performances for their own programming. It was a way of
keeping groups intact that were already programmed so they could be controlled.
Wayne Morris:
About your book. What motivated you initially to write about your experiences, and why did you
choose to write it as a fictional work?
Brice Taylor:
I was trying to stay alive. I was running from place to place, from state to state, all by myself. Dr.
Catherine Gould recommended that I stay in contact with her and Ted Gunderson, who is a
retired FBI agent who has been helping survivors and basically I was trying to stay alive and to be
able to explain to people what was going on in order to keep myself and my children safe. And I
was trying to help other survivors so they could see and perhaps it would ease their feeling of
being alone and feeling crazy, much in the same way that Lauren Stratford's, Satan's
Underground, after I had a bunch of my memories, had been something that helped me realize
that I wasn't alone and I wasn't crazy.
Wayne Morris:
Did you feel that the book served as a kind of insurance policy for you as well?
Brice Taylor:
Absolutely. It continues to ... in ways that ... a member of the intelligence community told me ... I
explained I had written the book and gotten it out all over along with my actual memories, naming
the names, dates and places in a letter stating that if anything happened to me or my children, that
this information was to be made bigger and that the people that had my information who were
public already with this issue were to take it out wider and then ... what ended up happening was
it created a huge safety-net for myself and my children.
Wayne Morris:
I was going to ask why you chose not to name the names, but I think you just answered that.
Brice Taylor:
Initially I made it under Catherine Gould's recommendation in order to stay alive. Also to make
the problem understood in a more simple fashion by the general public. People really had a hard
time back in those days hearing the names that I was naming who they thought as their national
icons or heroes as doing this horrific torture to myself and my children. I felt it was a way, in a
very simple way, to help people to understand what was going on.
Wayne Morris:
Can you tell us just in a general sense what kind of entertainers were involved, and politicians?
Brice Taylor:
World class, internationally known comedian, actually my owner was an internationally renowned
comedian. World leaders, Presidents, Judges, lawyers, politicians at all levels, famous entertainers
and musicians, ministers, dentists, doctors - I mean, the list goes on and on and on. It was my
experience that there are world leaders and entertainers in Hollywood and all over who are
themselves programmed, and are in need of healing.
Wayne Morris:
Do you feel that these entertainers had intelligence connections as well?
Brice Taylor:
That I have no way of knowing that. But I would say there were some types of intelligence - I don't
know actually what the connection was - whether it was actually our intelligence communities or
what. But I would often be escorted to a very famous person's home that was an entertainer, by
two men in suits and a black sedan to deliver programming. So yes, I would say it was some sort of
intelligence.
Wayne Morris:
How well distributed is your book, "Starshine", and how can people get a hold of it?
Brice Taylor:
Right now I can give you my PO Box that people can order it from, and that's to just write a
cheque to Brice Taylor Trust, PO Box 655 Landrum, S. Carolina 29356 and I also have another
book called "Revivication" which is a gentle alternative method of memory retrieval process for
trauma survivors. Both books together including shipping are $25 U.S. Any bookstores carrying
New Leaf Distributor books can be ordered in that manner.
Part II
Wayne Morris:
Do you consider yourself completely free from control by your perpetrators, and have they
attempted to reaccess you?
Brice Taylor:
Yes I consider myself absolutely free, and I still receive harassment. Although since I have gotten
my book out, it's more on a verbal level, or receiving things in the mail that are attempts to trigger
my programming, or like messing with my mail, and things like that.
Wayne Morris:
I would like to go into a bit more detail about the kinds of things you were used by your handlers
for?
Brice Taylor:
That's a big one. I was used by a member of the National Security Agency and someone that was
oftentimes close to Presidents - I was programmed with what he called "Mind Files" and I had
government Mind Files where I was programmed to have perfect photographic recall of
documents that I was programmed to read and remember in my head. It was like having a
computer brain; a human computer at your access. Along with that, I was also used with these
Mind Files in order to be like a postal bank of communication between the elite members who
were bringing out the New World Order in order to keep their world plan orchestrated and
organized. I was also used as a sex slave to Presidents and foreign leaders and entertainers here
and abroad, in order to deliver programmed messages from the elite in order to keep the plan
smoothly running and operating.
I was also used on lower levels in my community with money laundering, pornography,
prostitution. It was endless.
Wayne Morris:
Do you have memories of the details of the information they were keeping in your Mind Files?
Brice Taylor:
Oh yes, years of it. I spent years documenting everything. It's very classified projects and plans for
the New World Order.
Wayne Morris:
Can you tell us in terms of alerting the public about what kinds of things they are planning to
bring about this New World Order, and what they envision that this would be?
Brice Taylor:
From what I heard on the inside, in my experience sitting among these so-called elite people, the
financial elite - their plan is for a world takeover because they feel that genetically and in every
other way physicially, the populations of the earth are inferior - of an inferior genetic strain. What
they are attempting to do is to bring down the population through various contrived means -
which is a whole other subject all on its own - in order to bring these people to death so that the
planet will be left pristine and untouched for their future progeny.
Wayne Morris:
It might be a bit too late for that ...
Brice Taylor:
Yeah. They feel that - and certainly I don't have the most up to date information - survivors who
have come out since I did, have more current information of the plan. I am certain they have had
to change it and alter it in order to bring it through - they feel that what is their ace in the hole this
time, because they have tried this many, many other generations - it's almost like a game of wits of
the most intellectual and financial power brokers being able to see what kind of game they can do
here on the small minds of the planet - these people are unwitting victims. Even people who aren't
under mind control are victims of all this and will be in the future.
What I understood was that they were planning a complete and utter economic collapse of the
nations that would make the Depression of 1929 look like child's play and through that, bringing
people financially to their knees, they would then come in and control them, and bring in whatever
other measures they would want to in the guise of rescue - when it certainly wouldn't be that at all.
Personally I would like to put a call out to people who are in any way spiritually connected,
knowing that this plan can never be able to be brought about as the people even at the higher
levels that are participating, may be participating without knowing what they have been
participating in, such as members of the intelligence community who have been
compartmentalized in their knowledge of what projects they were participating in. I would
certainly put scientists that are inventors in that category. I would put people that are in the
Masonic Order that are perhaps at the lower levels and are serving the King at the higher levels
without realizing that what they are putting their energy into thinking that they are helping
children and people that are in need of help - what they are doing actually is serving the highest
levels of evil and corruption and destruction of men, women and children. People need to realize
that these people they are serving are turning against their own and that we need to take back our
own spiritual power and stay connected spiritually in order to know what to do and how to act,
and how to see the truth, and how to discern what lies and propaganda and strategies have been
given over the television, over movies with intentional strategies.
I sat with the men who strategized about what thoughts and belief systems they were trying to get
people to believe so that they could continue with the plans. Mind control was their ace in the hole
this time, because they felt that there couldn't be any mess-ups, and no human frailty or weakness
of mind or conscience if people were under mind control.
So I would just ask people to please open their eyes, and to begin to not just take what they see
that is given out by the government and the intelligence community as truth and reality, but to
begin to question and think on their own.
Wayne Morris:
Specifically how do you think mind control would be used in terms of a takeover implementation?
Brice Taylor:
I think there are people they have in positions of power, not only in the military but in political
and religious circles who are themselves under mind control and can be used as puppets to do
whatever they are instructed to do from higher up levels. People think that we elect our presidents
and I have sat with the people who planned who the presidents were going to be and groomed
them, and told them what to do, and what to say, and how to say it, and when to say it, and when
not to. And I delivered all kinds of messages of instructions to presidents and world leaders about
what to do and what not to do. I watched as people who were good people and weren't involved
were manipulated, brainwashed and controlled by persons like myself who were programmed,
dressed in jewels and beautiful clothes, with all the fancy and sophisticated sexual innuendoes and
techniques that I myself, my daughter, others were programmed to do and go in and just -- if these
men were at all able to be coerced they were manipulated and then they were blackmailed. These
people who are in positions of power know how to find out and research what people's weaknesses
are, whether they are sex, drugs, sexual perversion, financial gain -- they lure them in and once
people have been forced and coerced to participate and do the dirty deed - and a lot of times it was
filmed, videotaped and documented - and these people who were already in positions of financial,
political, whatever power, were then told 'this will be public knowledge and information if you
don't go along with us'.
I watched people being coerced at the highest levels at parties of the elite, where cocaine was
flowing, drugs, alcohol, whatever anyone wanted - sex with children, whatever - anything they
wanted - people were given. It was perversion at the highest level.
Wayne Morris:
When you speak of the global elite, I just finished airing interviews with Fritz Springmeier and
Cisco Wheeler and they speak of this global elite as being what is known as the Illuminati. Is that
your understanding?
Brice Taylor:
Actually I couldn't name it. It was never called that inside, but I will go so far as to say it is some
of the old money families ... the reason I don't name names is there are too many of them, number
one ... the names aren't going to help us sort out the problem, but the information is. And I was
clearly told by a member of White House Intelligence for 29 years that I could tell what happened,
but not to name the names. I want my children brought into safety and healing, and I believe that
my children's level of healing isn't going to much different than what is going to be needed for
some of these people who have been involved at the highest level.
Wayne Morris:
Let me go back to the point about the economy. How specifically do you think they will
manipulate the economy to bring it down?
Brice Taylor:
I think we have all lived in an inflated society, not just the government, but we have all been
trained to use credit cards, buy on credit, and really we own virtually nothing anymore. If you do
a crash on the financial things people have invested in - it's all just a mind game anyway - none of
it's real. It cripples the economy. The specific means of how that is to be done I would say
probably has fingers and feelers into the IRS, all the world banking systems that are in place, have
been for years. If you follow the money, you will find a lot of the answers.
Wayne Morris:
Do you believe there will be, for example, a stock market crash?
Brice Taylor:
I don't like to predict these kinds of things but I would say that is a strategy that in the past I have
heard and know has been used in the past. I would feel like I would be disrespectful to people to
say that I know that to be sure, but I have certainly heard it. But I have been out for a number of
years and things change and strategies change. They alter them as they perhaps are uncovered or
being a problem to the plan.
Wayne Morris:
What do you feel that the public can do to thwart their intentions?
Brice Taylor:
I think people need to contact their local politicians and demand information be divulged about
the government experiments, the medical, radiation, drug experiments, mind control experiments
- all of that. I think as people start learning about the internal structure of the Masonic Order and
how the programming is working and how people's brain waves can be altered and messed with,
even at a distance ... I think people need to get very instructed and educated about what has gone
on. I think people need to begin to simplify their lives ... financially and in all ways in order to be
able to take the time to evolve spiritually and see what's really going on and connect deeply.
Unfortunately I think people are going to have the opportunity to make a spiritual stand as people
were during the times of Nazi Germany where they housed babies and people who were going to
be killed due to a sick genetic belief system. I believe that as people are able to really take a stand
and understand and help that it will turn things around, but I think a lot has been put into place
and it's going to take some time to undo it ... obviously with all the people who are under mind
control who need to be healed.
Wayne Morris:
From the global elite perspective, what do they consider threats to their plan?
Brice Taylor:
I think the exposure of the plan would be a threat to their plan ... people being in charge of
themselves and understanding that there are projects such as the HAARP project that are altering
the frequency of the planet and the minds of the people that are here and demanding that that
project be stopped ... stopping the military from being able to hide research and instrumentation
and experimentation of weaponry that is oftentimes unable to be seen ... it is invisible but it is
damaging to the public and to the world. Demand to know what their tax dollars are being used
for ... which, from my perspective, people are paying taxes in order that all this research be done
on mind control, on everything else ... and they are paying for their own demise, paying for their
own destruction.
They are fuelling the government agencies and the military who have been given such a high
priority on this earth for destruction instead of funding education and teaching children how to
think and critically analyze, and empowering people. It's all built on a military mind, and bent on
destruction, and control, and power.
Wayne Morris:
When you had access to this information, what was their time frame for bringing this about or did
this come up?
Brice Taylor:
Within the next couple of years ... the plan was intended to be culminated by the year 2000.
Wayne Morris:
Is there a particular significance to the years 1998 and 1999 in terms of their own occult belief
system?
Brice Taylor:
It's a perversion of Christianity, it's a perversion of Christ. Everything that I ever saw was a
perversion of everything that is good ...
Wayne Morris:
I have heard a number of survivors talk about "end-time programming", do you have any
knowledge of that and what it entails?
Brice Taylor:
I had that too ... I never actually got to what my job was, but I knew that there was a job I was
programmed to have and do during those end times. I think that people were programmed and
are still programmed to create endless chaos. With the general population being so ignorant about
the mind control technology, about how targeted energy can affect brain waves, about all of the
higher level technology ... that they are blinded to all of this ... and that's dangerous.
Wayne Morris:
Do you feel that therapists and other professionals have made any headway to disable this kind of
programming?
Brice Taylor:
I think the therapists who have been working diligently in this for years, and I highly honour
them. I am very grateful, and I think they have done it a lot, and they have done it against all odds,
and at a great sacrifice professionally and in every way. I think that certainly bringing the
programming to light and to conscious awareness dismantles much of it, and I think that EEG
biofeedback technology is something therapists can use so instead of taking 10-15 years to
reintgrate someone with DID, that it can be done within a year or two without so much disruption
to the person's functional life.
Wayne Morris:
How long do you think it has taken them to actually program these people to the level they can be
used to participate in the plans?
Brice Taylor:
Usually it's the intergenerational abuse, so children that are going to be used on official levels are
programmed first and it takes years. I understand that starting in the seventies, children that
weren't from intergenerational families began to be programmed in daycare centres which is
where you have the McMartin preschool case and all of these cases where the children told what
happened, and were either initially believed and the people from the inside came out and said this
never happened and had the cases turned around and make the children look not credible.
That's another question I always ask people. As a child when I told, how would I have known
about all the sexual stuff unless I had seen it? Adults need to logically think about how a child
would ever even conceive of this kind of horror, and yet not just one or two children are coming
up with this, but hordes of children from all over the world. People have got to start looking at this
logically. This is not just the stupid False Memory Syndrome Foundation -- this is something much
bigger. Children have better things to be doing and don't have the ability to create this kind of
organized horror ...
Wayne Morris:
You alluded to child prostitution and pornography. How closely is this connected to these global
elites and the plans with the New World Order?
Brice Taylor:
From my perspective and experience, I believe the child pornography and prostitution was done
for their pleasure and entertainment. My daughter and my son were prostituted, taken to parties
where the elite or anybody who wanted to have sex with them was able to go in and have sex with
children. I think it is used as an incredible fund-raising ability to bring in large amounts of money
underground with child pornography in international markets where it is highly sought after and
brings in a lot of money for their operations.
Wayne Morris:
In your opinion, how widespread do you think trafficking in children is going on today?
Brice Taylor:
I think that it's enough that if normal people knew how widespread it was, it would bring them to
their knees. It's like Ted Gunderson says, as an ex member of the FBI, in California they knew
exactly where all the stolen cars were but no one had any idea about any statistics or any idea
about where all the missing children went ...
Wayne Morris:
In your opinion can you estimate how many you think have been programmed, how many are
mind control victims?
Brice Taylor:
I never heard or saw a number on the inside. I know there are a lot of people healing, and I get
letters from survivors all over the world. A statistic I did hear from a member of the intelligence
community one time was for the Presidential model project where women were programmed to
sexually service presidents and the elite was 3000 in this country. That would mean there were
3000 women, and then as in my case, my daughter would follow in my footsteps. It's like a
pyramid game. As the generations go on, the numbers of people gets larger as the families
continue to propagate.
Wayne Morris:
Can you speak to what kind of similarities you see in survivors' accounts, and what geographical
areas they are from?
Brice Taylor:
Actually, physically they are from all over the world, so I haven't really seen 'everybody is from
California' or 'everybody is from Nevada'. It's not like that. But people do name a lot of the same
military bases and I will just say for myself and my daughter were programmed heavily at Point
______ Naval Base where they had dolphin tanks in research, and there were places at Edwards
Air Force Base and all sorts of different locations. But I think our commonalities are that we are
all naming either major medical hospitals where arms of different medical research projects were
done, or military bases, or NASA stations ... it's an organized pictures. It's not just some little
satanic cult operating here and there. It's all very organized.
Wayne Morris:
Have the people you have spoken to had similar experiences in terms of starting from an early age,
and being exposed to these satanic rituals, abuses and what percentage of people are involved in
the government mind control that you have spoken about?
Brice Taylor:
Actually most of the survivors I have met have been used more at local levels, not within the
government, but used more at a lower level. However there have been ten or twelve other
Presidential models that I have met. I have met women who come up to me and are afraid to give
me much of their story, but will say so-and-so was also my abuser, or they remember the same
man. A lot of my validation has come from not naming the names and for many of these women
who are so frightened and have never read my book and they find me out in the hall, and corner
me, and name the names and oftentimes they are some of the high level perpetrators that were
also my abusers. I quietly validate them and they go off and heal knowing they are not crazy.
Wayne Morris:
I want to also to talk about the criminal connection to other organized crime, and particularly
trafficking in children, and I wondered if you could shed any information about what you have
been exposed to.
Brice Taylor:
As far as the criminal connection, my memories and my experiences as a child were heavily Mob
involved as well as CIA and government, different medical universities and military bases that
were used.
As far as that criminal activity, how it all weaves in, I believe is just as ___ that are used in order
to benefit from the child trafficking and is able to use these children and certainly the
pornography and prostitution, and to bring in other children -- there's a place in my book where I
talk aobut how I was used under mind control to enlist other children into an automobile in
California. These were children, as far as I was aware as a child, that probably did not have the
background or programming, or had not even been abused, that were kidnapped off the street and
enticed with the use of another child to bring them in. And then once they were in the car they
were trapped and I watched as they were used in pornography and were used in snuff films in
which they were actually killed during the filming, and then were disposed of in whatever manner.
Certainly this type of what some of these sick and sadistic people think of as entertainment that
feeds their own perversions and their own sick senses, is what has really brought in a large
financial base. This has been exposed by other women who have talked about the funds being used
for black operations, CIA government mind control, different medical experiments that were
being done. This is where a lot of the funding for these activities comes from.
Wayne Morris:
These tie in with the criminal activities such as (as you mentioned) child pornography,
prostitution, drug trafficking. How widespread, in your opinion, is trafficking in children?
Brice Taylor:
I think it is very widespread, and I can think that the public has been seriously fooled by the False
Memory Syndrome Foundation and a lot of the media that has gone on saying that all these cases
that have come up with the preschools and the different agencies around the country where
children are coming forward and telling what happened to them -- that does include pornography.
Statements are being made in sexual ways and certainly about abuse in the child's mind, and they
are being discredited. And I believe the children are telling the truth. They are saying the same
things that happened to me and lot of other women across the country. And we are certainly being
discredited by the media. From what I understand and from the first persona accounts I hear, the
people who are my age and go back even older and younger are talking about the amount of
children in preschools that have been programmed, that may have not been in a generational
ritual abuse ties, but who have been programmed and used in the pornography and prostitution in
order to create great avenues of funding. I think that combined with kids who are found missing
of the street and kidnapped in an attempt to use them as a means of funding - all of this horror
continues to go unchecked by the public population that finds all of this so incredulous - that they
don't even believe it. So here we have survivors and children who are also revictimized by a
disbelieving public and oftentimes uninformed mental health and church system who are unable
to believe that this kind of atrocity has gone on, so they are unable to come to these children's aid
or to the adult survivors who are attempting to find avenues of relief and help in order to stop this
and help themselves.
Wayne Morris:
It really seems that their biggest coverup for all of these atrocities is the public's disbelief.
Brice Taylor:
Walter Bowart who wrote "Operation Mind Control" has a blurb in his book that says the big
secrets are protected by their incredulity. And certainly I believe that those who strategized this
plan were very well aware that when all of us started talking about these things that just like in
Nazi Germany - people still today believe that a lot of those horrors didn't happen - that people
will turn away and deny what really happened because it is so horrific and incredulous.
Wayne Morris:
Speaking of Nazi Germany, there have been a number of allegations that there has been Nazi
involvement, particularly in regard to Project Paperclip, of importing Nazis after WWII into the
United States. Have you come across any Nazi connections in your experience?
Brice Taylor:
Yes I have, and just to enlarge and expand a little bit on Project Paperclip, Linda Hunt wrote a
book about this in which she explained that Mark Phillips who was an intelligence officer and he
personally told me that he was part of bringing in some of these Nazi doctors - bringing them into
our country and giving them immunity - that he was unaware at the time of the full ramifications
of what these people were doing within our country. Right there is the Nazi connection of how
these men who were a lot of the scientists and doctors who had used the population of prisoners in
the concentration camps as their unwitting and unwilling and suffering people as their population
of research and how then they were brought to our country and put into the major universities
and research centers in order to further their research mind control and were given over to the
population of ritual abuse survivors in order to have now another group to experiment on of
which certainly myself and my children were a part of that - but also included genetic experiments
that were done to me and to my children. As far as the Nazi connections that I am aware of in my
past, I am aware of my mother telling me my father went to some neo nazi meeting along with my
grandmother when I was just a little girl. I know that in a lot of my recovery work the symbol that
I kept drawing over and over was the swastika, the Nazi symbol. I saw that symbol as a child at
some of the satanic ritual ceremonies that were done to me and others and certainly I believe that
is a very large part of all of this. As society continues to want to even put Nazi Germany and the
horrors of those people that suffered in the concetration camps under the rug and not look at it - it
continues to proliferate here - even within our country - as these people are still getting away with
doing the human experimentation and torturing people today.
Wayne Morris:
Do you feel that the experiments that were done in the Nazi concentration camps during the
holocaust were for the purposes of developing mind control?
Brice Taylor:
Definitely. In fact last year I went to the Holocaust Museum in Washington, D.C. and saw their
pictures of the actual brain experimentation and a lot of the research that was done, and it's all
there for people that have the eyes to see - that this absolutely was experimentation - there are
pictures of people being experimented on.
Wayne Morris:
Do you have, in your experience - did you come across Josef Mengele in the United States? A
number of survivors of mind control have named him as being involved in their abuse in the U.S.
post WWII era - was that part of your experience?
Brice Taylor:
No actually, it wasn't but there were doctors at UCLA Neuropsychiatric Institute who very
instrumental in my programming and where I reported to oftentimes by myself as a result of
responding to my programmed instructions to report there and where my programming was
checked in on, and made into whatever the needs were at the time. There were doctors all over the
country that I reported to in various military installations and certainly UCLA.
Wayne Morris:
A number of people I have interviewed have talked about the occult ideology of these groups that
are responsible for perpetrating mind control. What do you think the significance of that is?
Brice Taylor:
I think that historically now - I have been able now to read back and to understand that the occult
plans for this New World Order go back generations and were built on very heavily with what
seemingly looks like religious ideology. I believe that the occult belief system and the evilness of
that and the destructiveness, and certainly interlaced with superstitious belief is what continues to
allow these things to proliferate as people's belief systems. They belief these perversions give them
the power to take it forward into these times. I think that it's like for the satanists to believe that
these satanic rituals and all of the perversions that are done during these rituals allow them in
their belief system to believe they are gaining power by doing all these horrors and stealing energy
from children and babies, in all of the different ways they are killing. It allows them to continue
on. Until these belief systems are cleaned up and until people (the good people on the planet) are
able to weave through their own denial that this level of atrocity could still be going on today, I
think that's where the problem lies. It's until the people who are perpetrating this occultic belief
meet up with the denial of people, even Christians, who can't believe this and say they are
frightened by it, and don't want to deal with it - it's my experience in watching that if people do
nothing that the children continue to be tortured and abused.
Wayne Morris:
Do you think this ties in in a general sense with these groups that have been using mind control in
their motivation towards more and more power and wealth? I could ask, "Don't these old money
power groups have enough money already?" What is motivating them to perpetuate these
atrocities?
Brice Taylor:
What I saw from the inside sitting in a group of these men who were strategizing - it's almost like
some of these people are so unbalanced intellectually - certainly fuelled by whatever horrific
abusive, unloving, uncaring systems they may have come from - that they view and believe very
strongly in the intellect and not feelings or any kind of caring or love or anything like that. They
more or less look at this as a game of their intellect - like a group of powerful men sitting in a
room thinking up strategies of how they might be able to control the world and what benefits they
might be able to have. From what I saw, it seemed like it was a big game to them and in fact they
used with me - and part of my programming was a chess game where they used different pieces of
that chess game to represent different world leaders and this was how the game was played, and it
was all used in a very symbolic way. I believe these people are very intelligent and are able to
strategize and come up with a plan but it's almost as if the stakes have to get raised higher, just
like in a poker game, of who could control who and how successful they would be in seeing how
they could control the minds of the entire planet.
Wayne Morris:
I want to ask you if you are aware of any direct government ties to some of the satanic cults that
seem to have proliferated across North America and a lot of survivors have come forward with
their accounts of these cults. I suppose there are a lot of different levels there in terms of their
involvement with the overall government mind control picture. I want to ask if you knew of any
direct government ties to some of these cults.
Brice Taylor:
The government ties to the cults are the politicians that I believe have realized and are very aware
that people in the cults, especially in the satanic cults where they are born and have multiple
personality systems from the abuse in the family, are certainly prime candidates because of their
dissociative abilities and inability to stay present in a unified, whole way with their minds to even
know what's going on. I believe that through the politicians and through the military - the bases
were used with a lot of the equipment for the mind control and certainly used as a way to cover up
these experiments by saying they were military projects. There is a base in California, Point
Magoo Naval Base on the coast there, it was real close to my house where myself and my children
reported. That base was until recently armed with a man with a gun in the tower. You want to ask
people what - in my recovery I wanted to ask people, "why would you think that a military base
here in California on the coast would need to have men with submachine guns standing up in the
guard tower?" I believe that the military was used as a branch of the government in order to
house these projects in a way they could be kept secret from the public and yet here the public is
paying taxes and actually funding these research projects in ways that they have no idea where
their money is going. People are only beginning to demand to know about these secret projects
through the Freedom of Information Act. I think the government ties are very strong. There are
certain individuals within the government who have certainly been a part of this New World
Order plan. From what I saw with the presidents all being involved with their Masonic
connections, and certainly some of them with higher Masonic connections than others. The mind
control technology is hidden at the level of the 33 degree Masons. I believe this branches out to a
lot of top hierarchy of a lot of organizations and not just the government - but also into the major
corporations of the world where a lot of the corporate heads have been manipulated into this
system. Where there is talent, money, power and control the secrecy has worked its way in.
Wayne Morris:
Do you have any inside information about their control over the media and connections there, in
how they manipulate the media?
Brice Taylor:
Absolutely. I was amongst them when they were planning in the late 60's and 70's when they were
planning strategies of how the information would go into the newspapers and I listened as they
talked about some of the major families who owned some of the newspapers, and how through
owning a lot of the major media, which I believe now is pretty complete if people were able to look
back and trace the histories of a lot of the media, they would be able to see that this is all pretty
much locked up and these things are censored when any of these subjects begin to work their way
into the media. I know one intelligence officer told me there was a Russian intelligence officer who
was being interviewed on television and they asked him a question and he said "the Americans
have won the war of the mind" and they whisked him off the air and he never even showed back
up - that was it - it never went any farther. I believe the media is in a large coverup right now and
people are listening, and hearing a lot of stories that have been strategized in an attempt to have
them believe what these people want them to believe instead of actually getting the truth of what
has gone on.
Wayne Morris:
The media is currently creating a lot of furor over this latest Clinton scandal. I wondered if you
could comment on that and if there is any indications that any of these women who are coming
forward have been used like you have been?
Brice Taylor:
As a Presidential model, and speaking on behalf of other Presidential models and women I have
spoken to within the last week or so - we all feel quite a victory that his reputation is being
challenged - and that the truth is being brought forth. I would like to commend Paula Jones and
even stand with her as knowing this is a reality, and this man needs to be stopped in his sexual
perversions. I would say that personally for me, I was devastated when he was re-elected and I
should and do try to remind myself all the time that the Presidents aren't really elected but I think
it is going to take the Americans of the world to take back this country, and to really research and
find out what is going on and to stop it and to realize that our leaders, even if they are not in
control with themselves, may have an agenda here that is not for the good of the whole.
Wayne Morris:
Do you think the scandal may have possibly been engineered against Clinton by another power
group - with not good intentions either?
Brice Taylor:
I have no way of knowing that. I think this man has perpetrated more horror to women on this
planet, as well as a lot of the violence that has gone on - that continuous attempts for it to be
leaked out to alternative media sources and the American public still is so - I don't know if they
are so busy trying to earn a living for their families that they don't have time to research what
their leaders are doing. It seems like up until now people have been pretty shortsighted. There are
and have to be good people within the White House and within the intelligence community who
may not know what is going on, and don't understand the mind control or the levels of how it has
been used to manipulate and certainly may be behind some of these scandals, or allowing them to
leak at least some of the truth to the press. I think it's a wonderful thing that at least our President
is being called into check about some of the allegations that are made repeatedly against him as far
as his sexuality and adultery, and all the perversions that follow it.
Wayne Morris:
In your experience, is Clinton any different than any other presidents in that regard?
Brice Taylor:
No.
Wayne Morris:
What do you feel is necessary to bring all of this into more public limelight to expose these
atrocities?
Brice Taylor:
I think it is going to take a lot of education for people, and I think it is going to take the public
waking up and coming out of denial about the level of evil that people are able to perpetrate on
other people. I think people are going to need to take the survivor accounts into a belief arena in
order to stop what has gone on because everybody is going to be a victim of this. Certainly the
victims of mind control have suffered immensely through years of torture and trauma, but society
also is a victim of this because until people are reintegrated and deprogrammed they are a threat
to peace in society. As people well know, the programming that was done was not as effective and
able to control people as they thought and as people break down their programming. It's a
problem for society as people become violent. We find children who are killing their parents; we
find that behind that is satanic abuse but it's not allowed into the court system and the reality of
this has been covered up in so many different ways that the public isn't getting the truth of what is
really happening?
Wayne Morris:
What plans do you and other survivors have of bringing this into more of a public view?
Brice Taylor:
Well certainly Wayne, I speak out whenever I have a chance whether it be radio, tv, workshops,
conferences - I speak out all over the nation and that is certainly one avenue of giving out
information. Writing books, and I encourage other survivors to write what happened to them and
get it out. I think that another Presidential Commission needs to be brought where a greater
number of women are able to come forward with their stories to stand with Valerie Wolf and her
survivor clients who were so courageous and stepped forward and opened the door on the mind
control experiments. I think it is going to take a grassroots movement of women who have been
through this to expose it and stop it. I think that will be a very powerful avenue.
Wayne Morris:
Brice, I would like to thank you very much for joining us in this radio series. I know it took a lot of
courage to come forward as you have, and I wish you all the strength in your ongoing struggle to
bring this to light.
Brice Taylor:
Thank you Wayne. I really appreciate the opportunity of sharing my story with you.


Gail Fisher Taylor Interview
Mind Control Series
Good morning and welcome to the International Connection. Today is show number 44 in the radio
series on mind control and we are bringing you Part 1 of an interview with Gail Fisher-Taylor, a
psychotherapist working with survivors of trauma. We are going to talk about the nature of memory, and
particularly traumatic memory. This will be the final interview in the radio series on mind control in
Canada and the U.S. To end off the series, we are going to have a panel discussion on February 22, 1998
about ritual abuse and healing for survivors with Alys Murphy, Caryn Stardancer and Gail Fisher-
Taylor. On March 1st, a panel on government military mind control with Walter Bowart. And now the
interview with Gail Fisher-Taylor.
Wayne Morris:
I am here with Gail Fisher-Taylor, a psychotherapist who works with abuse survivors. Welcome to the
show Gail. I would like to start off with asking you what is the current work you are doing?
Gail Fisher-Taylor:
I am a psychotherapist, a consultant, and I also do training and education particularly around trauma. I
work with people who basically want change in their lives, or they want to change something in their
life. I work with a whole range of issues that people have, but I definitely specialize in the area of
trauma. That includes adult survivors of sexual abuse and various kinds of sadistic abuse, and some who
have been survivors of mind control.
Wayne Morris:
Throughout this radio series, the term "ritual abuse" has come up, both within a cult setting and within a
government mind control context. I know in talking with you previously, you have some trouble talking
with that term, "ritual abuse". How do you feel about how that is being used currently?
Gail Fisher-Taylor:
Well let me talk a little bit about the trouble I have with the term. I think it emphasizes the wrong thing.
It emphasizes ritual, and what we are really talking about here is criminal activity. We are talking about
things like sexual abuse, confinement, forms of mind control, child pornography rings, child prostitution
rings as well as adult pornography and prostitution rings. We are also talking about rituals that involve
criminal activity such as murder and torture. I think what needs to be emphasized in the abuse is that it is
criminal activity often done by multi perpetrators, multi victims in the crimes. Many times it is cult
activity, much of which is illegal, and I think that the term "ritual abuse" emphasizes the belief system,
which is part of it, but I think it's easy for the media and other people to sensationalize that aspect of
things. I think sadistic cult abuse is a good term, but it's not totally comprehensive either. We have a
problem with language here, defining what we are talking about and emphasizing the correct thing. In
terms of this kind of abuse, I would just like to point out that what is involved is crimes against
humanity - the kinds of crimes that we see in wars. The kinds of crimes that we know exist and I think
that when the ritual aspects are emphasized or sensationalized in the media, that it distances people from
the reality of what is really going on.
Wayne Morris:
You would prefer to be more specific about what is actually involved in a particular case, whether it
does involve child prostitution, pornography or whatever kinds of criminal activities in terms of the
context that abuse is taking place in ...
Gail Fisher-Taylor:
What I like to do is try to talk about these kinds of abuse that a lot of people want to distance themselves
from, and want to disbelieve, because they are so horrific. I think if we ground our discussions in events
and incidents that we know exist, what we start doing is making it more difficult for people to
concentrate on the sensational aspects of the crimes basically. What we need to do is - we both need to
relate this kind of abuse to what people know exists in our society, and we also need to relate it to what
everyone can relate to. I look at a lot of things on a continuum and this kind of abuse is very much on a
continuum -- it's not separate from other kinds of abuse -- it is very much related to a lot of phenomena
that many people have some sort of experience with, and we all have experienced this just by watching
tv and reading the newspaper.
Wayne Morris:
I think people, particularly the media, when they hear the term "ritual abuse" automatically tend to think
of satanic ritual abuse and it involves some kind of satanic cults, which does exist out there but a lot of
people do have a hard time believing that goes on. As you mentioned, it takes away from the actual
criminal activities that are happening whether it's in the context of that kind of belief system or not.
Gail Fisher-Taylor:
I think there's another point here too. All repeated abuse is basically ritualized. What I mean by that is
that, for instance, if somebody is a serial killer, they develop patterns of behaviour so that when a serial
killer murders a number of different people the police are able to at least speculate that it's the same
murderer because there are patterns within the way that murder is done. If somebody sexually abuses
children, a pedophile, there are often ritualized aspects to the way that they sexually abuse children and
what it relates to probably is the traumatic re-enactment of the actual perpretrator who is committing
those crimes. In other words, what I am saying here is that when somebody has been traumatized as a
child and hasn't resolved that trauma, not everybody does this -- there are lots of people who have been
traumatized who don't re-enact that on other people. But there are also a proportion of people who have
been traumatized who then go on to commit the same crimes against other people later on in their lives.
Wayne Morris:
I would like to talk about the process of 'processing' experience into memory because as you know there
is a big debate going on in public about so-called memories which are linked to traumatic experience. I
wonder if you could talk just a bit about how the human mind does process experience.
Gail Fisher-Taylor:
I would like to start by talking a little bit about one way that we think, which is dissociatively. What I
mean by that is, let's say we are walking along the street and it starts to snow, and the snowflakes are
really large flakes, and we had an experience a long time ago, or even recently, we might start to get
feelings that we had in that experience. Say that we start remembering a snowfort when we were young,
and what happens is that all of those feelings - say it was a wonderful experience - all those feelings may
start to come back just by the fact that we see those large snowflakes that remind us of an experience.
We may start to get all kinds of sensory input from that previous time, even though the air might be
different in the present, we might remember what the air was like at that particular time. We might smell
certain smells that aren't there in the present that were there at that particular time. We might hear
sounds that aren't there in the present that were there at that particular time. What happens is that we
remember in all kinds of ways and we encode our experience in all kinds of ways and there is an implicit
kind of remembering, which is a sensory motor experience, emotional experience that we remember, and
there is the explicit which is more of a narrative kind of remembering - sequential. Explicit is actually a
less reliable kind of remembering. We can get the details wrong, we can get the sequences wrong. The
implicit we might get confused because we have to interpret that explicitly, but those body sensations,
those sensory sensations, those emotions will relate - we know they are from somewhere. We might get
mixed up about what they relate to, but we know that they relate to a specific event or events in our
lives.
Wayne Morris:
How does traumatic experience affect that process of dissociation?
Gail Fisher-Taylor:
It affects it in a number of ways. It depends on the traumatic experience and it depends upon the
emotional significance of the traumatic experience. It also depends upon whether it is repeated traumatic
experience, or one time traumatic experience. Clinically what we start to see is that trauma creates
blocks. It can keep a person in certain areas of his or her lives sort of locked into a certain belief system,
certain ways of interpreting things. What it can also do is that the associations are fragmented. In other
words what I mean is that if we remember in all of these different ways and the experience is encoded in
a sensory motor way, emotionally, and in all of the senses - so that we hear certain sounds, smell certain
smells, taste certain tastes, and that this is also in a non-traumatic experience - we would relate that to
the narrative. We would have an idea about the wholeness of the event. What can happen in trauma,
especially if it is repeated trauma, or really profound trauma, is that this gets fragmented and it is really a
protective device. If something terrible is happening that the individual has a hard time coping with is
that their actual internal opiods which are chemicals inside our bodies that are like opium and create an
effect that is similar to opium and are related to the shock people go into - let's say in an automobile
accident or another trauma - and they slow down the body and it seems that with other kinds of
neurochemicals in the nervous system - what happens is that there is a fragmentation that occurs so that
we may have a recollection - there may be a lot of terror involved in a particular traumatic event. But we
may block out completely what that terror is related to. For instance, I think psychiatrist Bessel Van Der
Kolk gave a really excellent example about how it all works, and how it is different for different people.
He was giving a talk and he said, "now if I suddenly exploded here most of you in the audience would
have [what he calls] flashbulb memory." In other words a very vivid memory, an enhanced memory for
the rest of our lives for that event occurring. But he also had with him colleagues with him who knew
him very well, with whom I imagine he was fairly close with. And he said, "now to my colleague,
probably what would happen is that she would have a very vague memory if she had any memory at all,"
and that would be because of the emotional significance of the event to her. It would be very different
for someone who knew him directly, it would be much more traumatic for her, than it would be for those
of us who were in the audience who didn't have an emotional relationship with him.
And I think this is really significant in terms of children and adult survivors who as children have been
abused by particularly a parent, or some other person who has a strong relationship with them. So if say
a child was abused by a father, or a mother, because we are finding more and more that there is abuse by
women, and if that children is dependent upon that individual for survival there is a real dilemma for that
child. Because she [and I will just say "she" because it happens to "he's" a lot too] she will need to
remain attached to that individual for survival and yet the fact that this person who might be reading her
bedtime stories is then sexually abusing her later on is extraordinarily confusing, and there's a
tremendous amount of betrayal involved there. So one thing that we see clinically is that these are the
kinds of traumatic experiences that get dissociated quite frequently, and it is the element of betrayal that
is often a very important factor in how much somebody will or will not remember about a particular
sexual or other kind of abuse by a parent.
Wayne Morris:
What is your understanding of the phenomenon of dissociation and the different levels of dissociation
that can happen? You brought up betrayal as a significant factor, and repeated extreme forms of trauma,
but can you talk about, from the victim's point of view, what is going on there.
Gail Fisher-Taylor:
Let me start first with dissociation because again I think is very much on the continuum, and everybody
dissociates to a certain extent. If somebody is reading a book or playing an instrument, doing artwork -
there is often a fair bit of dissociation involved in those activities. What that is is a form of hyper-
concentration and in that hyper-concentration there is a splitting off and splitting away from other things
that are going on in the environment. And what also happens - everybody has ego states which are
basically parts of our selves that take on different roles and that feel different ways, so we all have child
ego states that are there from childhood and have certain experiences and those experiences remain in
that kind of age within us. So for instance when someone who let's say hasn't been traumatized at all is
in a particular situation and let's say a particular ego state has had some injustice in his life. What may
happen is in another situation in the present day that child ego state may be basically triggered to come
out and maybe react in a very strong way to an injustice in 1977. What happens is when somebody has
been traumatized the splits between the ego states become much more distinct and what happens is that
they become the dissociation in the way that somebody can split off and maybe not be as conscious of
things in the external environment but other kinds of things inside that person. We all have places in
ourselves where we aren't aware of why, when we say 'I am not going to do that ever again' and
suddenly we find ourselves doing that right away. The way that I explain that is that basically one ego
state says 'I am never going to do that again' and out pops another one who says 'oh you aren't? I am
going to do it right now!' It's a phenomenon that occurs in everybody.
Wayne Morris:
Is this happening more on a subconscious level?
Gail Fisher-Taylor:
Yeah, it would be happening on a subconscious or an unconscious level. But what happens when
somebody is traumatized is that these ego states become more and more distinctive and more and more
operative as distinctive personalities basically, or identities ...
Wayne Morris:
On a conscious level ...
Gail Fisher-Taylor:
Well what happens is that sometimes the person is totally not conscious this is going on. The extremes
of this would be when somebody has what used to be called Multiple Personality which is now
Dissociative Identity Disorder in the medical field. That person may not be aware there are these
different identities that are coming out and acting in certain ways, dressing in certain ways, and there is a
kind of sensation that somehow time has jumped ahead, or that there is a confusion about what day it is.
When somebody is traumatized there will be a part, or ego state or identity that will come forward and
handle certain aspects of their trauma, and during one particular trauma - let's say the person is being
abused in some kind of way - there might even be a number of different identities that come out and
handle different aspects of the abuse. It is again a very important protective mechanism when this is
happening. The person is not having to handle everything and be totally overwhelmed, there is a
fragmentation of experience in the different identities. One identity might be handling ie. the demand to
act like that identity is enjoying the sexual abuse. So there might be one identity who comes out and
learns to enjoy the sexual abuse and then there might be another identity that is in a rage about the
sexual abuse and holds the rage, and those two identities don't have any co-consciousness with each
other. They don't know that each other exists, and they don't know that the feelings are there. It would
work like that. There might be another part that feels very vulnerable and wants to cry during it, and
again there wouldn't be the co-consciousness with the other identity.
Wayne Morris:
I guess the difference I was trying to get at with the normal ego states that we all have on a subconscious
level don't ever really come out to the forefront usually - whereas in people with the extreme end of that
- Dissociative Identity Disorder - can have different identities come out to the forefront where they take
on the voice and mannerisms of a child and so forth ...
Gail Fisher-Taylor:
In a way it's not so clearcut as that. Certainly if somebody who has Dissociative Identity - there are very
noticeable changes and with somebody who has normal ego states that aren't so distinctive - if you start
understanding ego states you can start identifying that a particular ego state is there. They might not
have exactly that childlike voice in an extreme way, but what they may have is that they may be saying
things that make sense in a 3 year old context, from a 3 year old's point view, but don't make sense in
that adult's point of view. When somebody is sounding that way what is really happening is that there is
another ego state there that's operating at a different stage of development. When you start to understand
these mechanisms you start to see them, and they do come to the forefront. It's just that they are more
subtle than in somebody who has Dissociative Identity.
Wayne Morris:
So from what I am hearing in terms of ego states in people who have not had a traumatic history or been
severely traumatized, there is a certain amount of communication going on there between ego states.
What accounts for the amnesia between identities or the non-communication or non-awareness of the
other identities within somebody that is dissociative.
Gail Fisher-Taylor:
I am not sure I can answer what accounts for it but we can guess at it and we can basically say that one
of the determining factors for the diagnosis of Dissociative Identity Disorder, as it is called, is that
somebody has to be amnestic - they have to have amnesia for certain blocks of time and from my
experience and those of us who are working in this field I think would agree with this is that the amnesia
(and particularly survivors would agree with this) really does protect in lots of ways. Somehow it seems
to be a survival mechanism and this protective mechanism that allows the fragmentation of experience to
happen so that the individual isn't overwhelmed right in the midst of it, nor is the individual
overwhelmed when these memories may be coming back, or the ego states or the identities start getting
together and start giving some of the knowledge of this experience.
Wayne Morris:
The term "disorder" is really a misnomer - it's really a natural defense mechanism ...
Gail Fisher-Taylor:
I think it is. I think a better word would be "dynamic". It's a very dynamic coping strategy and I think
that sure it can be maladaptive in adulthood and can cause problems, but in a lot of ways what it does in
the midst of the trauma it can allow someone to survive who might not otherwise survive.
Wayne Morris:
With people who have been severely traumatized and are dissociative, I understand that there isn't that
kind of move between implicit memory and explicit - there isn't somehow a processing of that
experience fully. They can't in their conscious state or their main persona - they can't narratively tell
what happened in an abusive situation. Why isn't that implicit memory processed?
Gail Fisher-Taylor:
There are basically some theories about this and there is research that seems to be backing some of these
theories. It seems that what is happening when somebody is being traumatized is that in the limbic
systems in our brains, the amygdala which basically gives emotional significance to things (at least that's
the theory) is very, very key in traumatic experience. Implicit memory, sensory/motor/emotional will be
there - the person may feel terror in this particular circumstance. It seems that the hippocampus bypasses
this - at least that's the hypothesis and that the hippocampus is what is needed to give order to things, to
create a narrative.
Wayne Morris:
Or to create the associations?
Gail Fisher-Taylor:
Well, there are going to be associations without the hippocampus. I am over-simplifying here. It seems
that what happens in overwhelming trauma is that people often do not remember the specific narrative.
Let's say that someone is mugged - let's go with something as simple as this - what they may remember
about the event is not the face. They may not have been looking at the face. They may be able to
remember what the weapon looked like - let's say it was a gun. They certainly will be able to remember
the terror that they felt. They may not be able to remember all the events around it, that may be
completely dissociated away. Or if it wasn't that terrifying it seems to have to do with the adrenalin
level. When the adrenalin is at a certain level the memory will be, as Bessel Van Der Kolk talks about, a
flashbulb memory. In other words it will be remembered very vividly. But it's almost as if when the
adrenaline level gets too high what happens is that the memory will get vague - or there will be that
fragmentation involved. Somebody knows that something terrible happened. They may know something
of the event, or they may know nothing of the event, particularly if it is repeated trauma. It gets
dissociated away.
Wayne Morris:
There seems to be a lot of confusion in the debate about recovered memories about the nature and the
difference of traumatic memory versus memory that can be recalled in a narrative way. We have been
talking about some of the factors about why that happens and the physical and physiological workings of
the brain not being able to process that through the hippocampus, or the hippocampus being
overwhelmed by the experience and not being able to take that in, and give sense to it.
Gail Fisher-Taylor:
One thing that is very interesting is that some of the research has demonstrated that in Vietnam Veterans
for instance - they have smaller hippocampi which doesn't prove the theory, but it supports the theory. I
think what is significant here, and what is really important in the debate about recovered memory is that
traumatic memory seems to be quite different from ordinary memory. There's that difference Bessel Van
Der Kolk talks about between implicit memory and explicit memory. I believe people are remembering
their traumas in certain ways probably almost every second of their lives and they are reliving it
emotionally, their belief system is affected by them. They may feel as if they have been abused, they
may feel totally worthless and that comes out of how they have been treated as a child. That is being
relived all the time. The terror may be relived practically every second of their lives and in some ways
all that has to happen is that the various fragments have to come together, and the awareness has to be
connected.
But let's say they are having particular recurring dreams or images that actually relate to traumatic
experience when they were a child, and let's say there are certain fantasies and they don't know why they
have these fantasies. Let's say they are feeling a high level of panic or fear or grief or rage that is related
to what happened to them. What has to happen is that they have to understand, somehow be able to
connect all of these implicit kind of experiences with the explicit knowledge of what it is connected to.
The fact that we have to interpret implicit experience with explicit knowledge can get problematic
because our narrative memories are not that accurate in certain ways. For instance ten people witness a
car accident. Everybody knows that a car accident happened but they may have ten completely different
versions of how it happened and who was at fault and what the sequence of events was. There are
inaccuracies and confusion in explicit memory and there can be misinterpretations because we have to
use explicit means to interpret the implicit information. That can be difficult but it is important to try and
make those connections and it is also has to do with making connections between the right and left brain
- that more intuitive, sensory, emotional experience in trauma has to be reunited with verbal processing
and understanding the beliefs that have come out of that traumatic experience.
Wayne Morris:
Even though somebody may be living with the implicit memories of a traumatic experience that
happened even decades before ... throughout the series I have been talking to the more extreme forms of
trauma in terms of government mind control which is very systematic and repeated. Often the people
will be amnesic in terms of being able to say 'I was involved in this experiment' but at some point in
their lives something triggers this memory back, and they are able to put the pieces of the implicit
memory back together. I wonder if you could talk about that process - of remembering things that had
happened decades before.
Gail Fisher-Taylor:
I think first we need to talk about "triggering" which is basically very much related to the associations
we make. Let's say that someone was abused in a room of a particular colour - blue - a particular shade
of blue. What may happen is that every time they walk into a room or every time they see that colour in
somebody's clothing, they might start feeling sick, they might feeling the rage, they might start having
all kinds of reactions that they don't understand because the explicit memory of that event has been
dissociated. Basically what they are doing is getting certain kinds of implicit memory back in relation to
that traumatic event. They just have a fragmentation that occurred so they don't know what it actually
relates to. In fact what they may then do is think that it relates to something in the present and they may
try to find an explanation in the present day for all of those intense feelings that have just been triggered
off - in other words - that have been associated with that colour blue. What happens is that it is kind of a
process where the amnestic barriers are starting to come down or the dissociative barriers are starting to
not be so strong, and there is more co-consciousness among states. When the dissociation happened,
there will be states that know what happened. Colin Ross talks about the fact that it is not really because
of memory - because some part of the individual has retained that memory all along which is very
interesting. What happens is that identity may not have let that information become co-conscious with
other identities within the community of identities within that one person. What starts to happen if that
person is involved in some sort of life circumstance or often when they are in psychotherapy there is
more of an awareness of what is going on internally. That's what psychotherapy is about - to look at
what is going on inside and what prevents the changes they want to make and then how do you work
towards making those changes so their life can become better.
What then starts to happen is that once these dissociations get recognized and once the person starts to
understand the way these mechanisms are working inside him or herself - it can actually be an opening
for developing more and more awareness and give some of those identities or ego states (because not
everyone who has traumatic experiences has Dissociative Identity). A lot of people have a kind of
dissociation where they have very active ego states that are holding these kinds of experiences inside
them, but they are not operating as what we used to call multiples. When the recollection of this person
starts it is really a process of increased awareness. There is connecting, so there is less fragmentation
among what the sensory experiences are and what the emotional experiences are, and the explicit
knowledge of the experiences. In other words if these experiences are related to a particular kind of
abuse and a particular kind of experience, that may start to come back. We can misremember something
that happened last week. We get the general drift of what happened, but we can get the details wrong.
We have to be very careful with how we do that recollection process. There are certain aspects of the
recollection, that yes, that's right - and aspects of it because of the implicit information we can have, and
then it's yes, this really did happen in this way. If you know the smell of your father and that smell was
in the room when the abuse was happening you can be pretty certain that's who it was. Or if you have a
flashbulb memory of his face, you can probably pretty accurately explicitly interpret that. But there are
other aspects that can get confused in that explicit interpretation of the implicit information.
Wayne Morris:
How does abreaction play a part in that in terms of remembering and making sense of the implicit
memory - how is that related to having flashbacks in terms of eg. Vietnam Vets?
Gail Fisher-Taylor:
Basically that is reliving traumatic events, and it is reliving in probably a much less fragmented way,
getting a piece of it - say getting a visual flashback. An abreaction can involve many of the senses - it
often involves very strong emotional responses. It can involve body sensations where the person can be
feeling the pressure on their chest or can be feeling the electric current (let's say they have been
electroshocked) going through their body. Those are very powerful ways of remembering. They are
basically a reliving of the experience. It means that there is some way it can be much more whole than
just getting a piece of the memory here, a piece of the memory there. Getting a smell here, getting just
one image almost as if it is a photographic image. Often people will get images of something they may
have focused on when something traumatic was happening. Something a lot of survivors have done is
when something unbearable was happening, they focused on a picture on the wall, or a crack in the
floor, a crack in the ceiling. That might be an image that is always with them but they don't know what
the significance of it is. In an abreaction what would happen is they might be looking at that crack in the
abreaction, but what they are experiencing is what was happening to their body and what they were
feeling inside themselves - all the powerful emotional experience.
Wayne Morris:
Is the process of abreaction just accessing a certain identity or a part of yourself that does remember
what actually happened during the trauma, or is it the process of creating that co-cognition between the
core self and those dissociated parts?
Gail Fisher-Taylor:
I think it can be either, but it depends what part of the self actually experienced the original trauma. If
the original trauma is experienced by a number of different identities, then the co-cognition would be
necessary in order to have a full abreaction - the co-cognition of all the identities who were there during
the original experience. If the original experience was basically experienced by one identity, then there
isn't any co-cognition that is necessary.
Wayne Morris:
But in terms of bringing that into say, that experience happened within the one identity, does the
abreaction somehow allow the person to be able to understand what happened in terms of being able to
explicitly explain it after the abreaction? Is there some kind of recognition in the person of what caused
the trauma?
Gail Fisher-Taylor:
Often yes. It is amazing to witness abreactions because if somebody is going through abreacting an oral
rape - as a witness in the room it is pretty definite that's what is going on. I am never suggesting that or
never ask a leading question. My questions are always open-ended, something like "can you tell me
something about what you have just gone through?" It is frequently, if not always, that I have had a
pretty guess as to what was happening to that person when they were going through the abreaction.
When they then report what their experience was, it is usually very much what I guessed it was from
what their body was doing in that abreaction. They may come out of an abreaction and say 'what I was
going through was an oral rape' but they may not know who did it at that point, and they may then
explictly try to guess, or they may wait for other kinds of abreactions and flashbacks and other aspects of
memory to get clues as to who it was. Or they may never know who it was.
Wayne Morris:
You mention body memories as being one of the kinds of implicit types of memory. Some of the people
I have interviewed have talked about the body actually physically having eg. reappearing burn marks or
marks right on the body that relate to a memory of an experience that happened in the past. Have you
come across this?
Gail Fisher-Taylor:
Yes I have. There's some research going on in this area speculating that there is such a thing as cellular
memory. It is very interesting to think about, but we don't know exactly what is going on here. Certainly,
this experience of having eg. a burn mark reappear, it does happen. I have witnessed that happening, and
it is quite profound. Somebody walks in the room and they don't have that mark on them and then they
go through an abreaction or they start a memory (they may not even be in abreaction) and suddenly this
mark appears. Maybe that's the beginning of an abreaction or it may take weeks or months to get the
memory that goes along with that. I think it's part of that same experience of how memory has been
coded in many different ways. It seems to be encoded in some way in our bodies so that when we have
an abreaction of something that happened 20, or 30 or 40 years back - our bodies re-experience it in an
abreaction as if it is happening right there and then in that moment. Somebody can think they can't
breathe because part of what happened to them was they were smothered - or somebody feels a pressure
on their chest, or is choking ... the way the body is going during an abreaction is something that the
person probably couldn't make themselves do consciously. It's a very different kind of phenomenon than
when somebody is just acting something out.
Wayne Morris:
It is amazing to think - just in terms of your example of someone who experienced electroshock and to
feel the feelings of the electricity again. So that may be not just a memory in their brain - there may
actually be something going on in their nervous system that they can actually feel that electricity again,
or their cells of their body is re-experiencing that reaction again ...
Gail Fisher-Taylor:
Our reactions, our emotions - there is a neurochemical change. Different neurotransmitters are activated
when we are burned. It may be - it would be interesting to look at this. If somebody was going through
an abreaction or they are having a body memory, eg. a burn mark appears, it would be very interesting to
look at what biochemically is happening in that person's body to see if the kinds of neurotransmitters are
being stimulated or activated and their levels are being elevated.
Wayne Morris:
For somebody who has had repeated experiences of abuse and are dissociative, what is the process of
healing, in terms of your understanding?
Gail Fisher-Taylor:
I think one of the important things that has to happen is that the person has to overcome the
fragmentation. If there isn't co-consciousness, if the emotions aren't related to that visual flashback, the
whole of that memory hasn't been processed and it is still a block, almost like a neurological block that
operates like a scratch in a record. It just seems to make that experience repeat and repeat and repeat in
some sort of form, that fragmented experience. What has to happen in the healing process is the person
needs to overcome the fragmentation - bring the implicit memory together with explicit, process verbally
so the experience is not just a traumatic experience locked in implicit memory, but there is a processing
and an understanding. I think there is some serious cognitive work that needs to be done too. Look at
how that trauma affected the person's belief system. What patterns developed that caused that person to
act in certain ways? What kinds of interferences are there in relationships? There needs to be some real
working on understanding the effect of the trauma throughout their lives, and also looking at 'how do I
then move forward?' and change this in our lives now. I think we are realizing now it's a process that can
be done in a lot of different ways. There are a lot of new therapies coming out that different people have
had different kinds of success with. For instance something like EMDR (eye movement desensitization
and reprocessing)- there are many ways to do it - but basically somebody moves their eyes back and
forth. It is similar to how someone's eyes move in rapid eye movement sleep. For some reason, and there
are theories about why this works, it really seems to open up memory. It can also help the person
reprocess beliefs they have in relation to those memories. It seems to overcome certain kinds of
dissociative barriers. It is a therapy you have to be very careful with, because it is very powerful. There
are other kinds of therapies like thought-feel therapy that are based on the energy, like the meridians that
Chinese medicine acknowledges in our bodies - that manipulates the fields in relation to people's history.
I think that we don't know completely how the healing needs to take place. We have certain techniques,
we have certain kinds of things we have varying success rates with, but I think that there are approaches
that we know if they are used in conjunction with other approaches, can be very successful. For instance
too much abreaction can mean that somebody gets overwhelmed and has trouble functioning in their
lives, but a certain amount of abreaction can be very powerful. Also paired with other kinds of therapy -
looking at cognitive therapy, psychodynamic therapy, different kinds of ways of really processing what
happened to the person and what is the meaning of it. Ego state therapy is very important to try to get the
various identities to know each other. There is a kind of group therapy you have to do in ego state
therapy basically - so that the identities who are in conflict can learn how to navigate the world together
and build alliances with each other so they are operating in the world in harmony not in adversity.
Wayne Morris:
Do you feel different people have to have different ways of healing and do you feel it is related to how
people process information, either visually or orally or kinesthetically?
Gail Fisher-Taylor:
Very much so. What I find fascinating, and wonderful, and challenging as a psychotherapist is that each
person's process is individual. I draw from my knowledge and draw from various modalities, but really
the individual herself or himself is going to have specific needs and specific knowledge about what they
need to do in the process.
Wayne Morris:
I would like to talk about how you understand mind control versus more innocuous forms of social
influence.
Gail Fisher-Taylor:
For me it's not a versus - it's a continuum again. Let's go back to Pavlov and his dogs. Pavlov played a
metronome before he fed a dog food. Eventually after doing this a number of times, the dog would start
to salivate any time he heard the metronome to the point where even when he didn't get food, when he
heard the metronome he would start salivating. What's happening here is there is an association the dog
is making between the metronome and getting food, and so it becomes a physiological mechanism that is
triggered off so the dog starts to salivate. Learning and socialization is based on this. For instance if a
child, every time he or she gets angry, is told that she's misbehaving because she is angry and say she is
punished or maybe even abused when she gets angry, what she is going to start learning is that her anger
or what she is starting to express or how she is behaving is not all right - maybe then fear comes in
because she is abused horribly when she gets angry. She may learn then to dissociate away from the
anger. What's happening is a phenomenon that is exactly the same as Pavlov's dog salivating. When
somebody learns there are associations that are made. Say they are learning to read - when they learn
words they get rewarded for those words - so they are motivated to read. Or somebody has a learning
disability and they try to read but they get very frustrated, then the association is made that 'I try to read
and I am frustrated'. These are just regular processes that everyone goes through. We learn certain things
by our experiences when they occur.

Wayne Morris:
Good morning. Welcome to the International Connection once again. This is show #45 in the radio
series on mind control and the last show with interviews. We are finishing the series with a few panel
discussions - next week on ritual abuse and the following week on government military mind control.
Today we are airing Part 2 of an interview with Gail Fisher-Taylor, a Toronto-based psychotherapist
who works with trauma survivors. Also today we will have a short interview with Dr. Connie
Kristiansen, a social psychologist and professor at Carleton University in Ottawa. You are listening to
CKLN.
Wayne Morris:
In terms of the healing process - what has to happen in order to break that conditioning? Examples of
using dissociation for that conditioning or not. How does a person break that control?
Gail Fisher-Taylor:
There are number of factors in the short term and in the long term. In the long term, the dissociative
barriers have to come down and in some way the person has to recognize how this programming has
happened, how this conditioning has happened - what they are supposed to do, and why they believe
they are supposed to do those things. Primary emotion, even though it may be very masked, will be
terror if they don't do what they are told to do, what they are conditioned to do, what they are
programmed to do.
In breaking down the dissociative barriers, let's say that this particular identity believes that they love the
perpetrator and they would never think of not doing what the perpetrator said unless the perpetrator is
telling them to do absolutely horrific things. Part of what needs to happen is that they need to go back to
how that relationship formed with that perpetrator and they need to go back to what beliefs they had.
They need to get the whole experience to understand both what they are believing and why they are
acting in the way that they are, and to integrate that with the emotions that are probably dissociated
away, and may in fact be in another identity. Often what has to happen in programming is that various
identities have to be sharing information, and have to somehow find a way to build those alliances so
that there isn't the control over separate identities - so they form an alliance against the people who have
done the mind control.That's just one aspect. It can be very complicated and multi-layered.
Wayne Morris:
What is your approach to undoing that conditioning, that programming in terms of therapeutic
approaches?
Gail Fisher-Taylor:
There are many of them. There are many stages to the therapy. It can be very difficult to predetermine
exactly what that road is going to be because different people's programming happens in different ways.
Part of what is really important to do is to be understanding what the structure of the identities is, and
what kind of co-consciousness is there in the system. What kind of programming is there. How do the
layers of programming work, how the layers of identities work? There are layers of memory, layers of
identities, and it can get very very complex. There are techniques that can start to expedite some of this
but what makes it very complicated in working with survivors of purposeful mind control is that often
part of the programming is that if the person starts to tell, starts to remember, starts to undo the
programming - there are other programs in there that can be triggered off. There might be suicide
attempts. If there is a cult they were supposed to return to and they have been able to resist returning,
they can't resist any more. They end up going back to the group that will be using them.
Wayne Morris:
I have also heard of "reporting" alters, simply reporting back what has happened.
Gail Fisher-Taylor:
Reporting identities, and compliant identities. Even if a person relocates to get away from a group that is
doing this, it can be very difficult because they have identities inside who will call the group and tell
them exactly where they are. Part of the strategy has to be to work with those and get them aligned with
therapy and compliance. That's another technique. You work with the programming that is there for the
perpetrator and you try to use it therapeutically, you try to turn it around. For instance a reporting
identity will not only report to a cult, they will also report to the therapist.
Let's say there is some sort of scrambling programming - that means the person is sitting there and they
can't hear clearly what somebody is saying in therapy. That scrambling programming can be very useful
when there is something overwhelming that takes over. It can be useful to use scrambling programming
to scramble it so it is not overwhelming, let's say an abreaction, or a flashback, or an emotional state.
There are many ways to do it. It is very complex and it's very dependent on that particular survivor's
history and mind that has happened.
Wayne Morris:
I would like to change the topic a little bit. I want to talk about how the Canadian Legal system has
handled cases involving mind control or sadistic abuse?
Gail Fisher-Taylor:
I am talking from a therapist's point of view, and just what I have some sort of knowledge of. I think that
there is lot of disbelief that these things happen in our society. The criminal justice system - if a
prosecutor is going to go ahead with a criminal charge against somebody, the Crown Attorney is going
to try to win the case. They don't prosecute unless they think they can win a case. The media is so full of
information that discredits the existence of this kind of abuse and who is reading these papers but people
who are on juries, judges, lawyers. Usually what happens is that part of the evidence is left out or
minimized or the Crown Attorney talks about - well, not all of this, you don't have to believe this in
order to prosecute on sexual abuse. We do have a problem because there is a kind of conservative
atmosphere in the criminal justice system. It's probably going to be the last to change. Twenty-five years
ago it was much more difficult to prosecute on an incest charge. I understand there are still psychiatric
textbooks in use that say incest occurs in one in a million families. Our beliefs about abuse have been
totally out of line. As more and more information is released from bodies like the CIA in the States that
document the kind of mind control and mind control experimentation that has been going - we start
getting much more validation, more and more survivors of mind control start speaking out, start going
into the legal system, start basically getting together and sharing experiences and forming advocacy
groups. I think that "the personal is political" - that old feminist cliche - this is what I think will
eventually allow more and more gradual credibility. But we have a long way to go, especially with
organizations like the False Memory (I refuse to call it syndrome) Foundation.
Wayne Morris:
Media has certainly played a large part in the public attitude in contributing to that - I will say
disinformation has done (in my opinion) a real irresponsible or unthorough job of looking into these
issues. What is your opinion of how the mainstream media has done in covering issues like mind control
and ritual abuse.
Gail Fisher-Taylor:
We have some basic problems because dissociation is very complicated. It's not something that
somebody is going to understand in a five minute sound bite, or in a sound bite, let alone five minutes.
Dissociation, traumatic memory, all of that kind of contextual information that lends credibility,
provides the context for things that when somebody first meets them, may sound very sensational, but if
they are taken out of context it may be very hard for somebody to understand and believe. If there is then
that media bias against the existence of these forms of abuse - mind control, various kinds of sadistic
abuse, cult abuse - what starts to happen is that there is a kind of public brainwashing that is going on,
and there is a mass dissociation away from the existence of these really terrible crimes. If people start to
believe in them, they start to feel a lot less safe living in our society. They start to feel a lot less
comfortable about sending their children off to school or off to a birthday party when they realize these
kinds of things happen in those kinds of places.
Wayne Morris:
I think the public guilt has a part to play in that. If they do recognize and start to believe that these kinds
of things have gone on, it begs public action and people may be at a loss about what to do about it as
well.
Gail Fisher-Taylor:
I think definitely you are making an important point. If people do believe, then they have to act, and you
are right. People don't know exactly what to do but I think the survivor movement can lend some real
direction here because I think there are a lot of very strong survivors out there advocating, informing,
forming organizations that are doing some really good work and it has to become - in a way there is a
really good metaphor here. In the way the dissociative barriers inside someone who has been
traumatized have to come down, those barriers have to come down between people so there is a group
momentum that starts to force the existence of this reality into the public mind.
Wayne Morris:
Mainstream media are so geared towards very quick sound bite oriented information. It has taken me
now on this show, forty hours to go through all this material and it does take a fair bit of understanding
and really looking at it thoroughly to understand all the issues around it in order to be able to believe this
is going on.
Gail Fisher-Taylor:
I think you are right. I think also there is something socially that goes on that has a lot to do with our
denial about the existence of all kinds of abuse - and that's just the way we deal with emotion. I have
been talking a lot about how, in the healing process, what has to happen is the emotions have to be
joined with flashbacks for instance. That's part of the dissociation - people dissociate from their
emotions and that reality can change shape. I think what part of what happens in our society is that there
is real emotional oppression in our culture. What I mean by that is that when people start getting very
emotional - it goes back to childhood really. If all individuals in a particular culture - when their children
get sad, or start to cry and they are told "don't cry" or they start to distract them with a toy. The message
gets across very clearly, that crying is not something that child is supposed to do. Same thing with anger.
What happens to that child is that child dissociates from those emotions. When the child dissociates
from their emotions, what then happens is when someone comes along with those emotions - let's say we
are talking about sadness. Let's say the child was never allowed to cry. What then starts to happen is
when someone else cries, that child may start to get very angry because the child doesn't have access to
his or her own tears, and there is fear around the tears. Little boys often will be conditioned or
programmed not to cry, but it's okay maybe to get angry. So that what will then start to happen is that
the tears inside that little boy might be there in empathy with another child or adult crying - but it will
come out as anger. Or maybe what happens is that the child learns that when somebody cries you walk
away.
What we are talking about horrific events that the normal response to is tremendous emotion - anger,
rage, fear, terror - all of these emotions are normal responses to horrific events. But if a person starts
gaining access to these emotions and then tries to express events that bring up these emotions in
someone else, what's going to happen is dissociation away from them in individual after individual. So
as a culture there is a moving away from intense emotion and what happens in that kind of dissociation
is that there is denial. It is much easier to deny the terrible purposeful mind control that happens, or that
sadistic cults are abusing children in a terrible way or that the neighbour is a pedophile.
It does demand action as you are saying, but it also means that in order to empathize someone has to
feel. If, as a culture, people have learned or been conditioned to suppress their emotions,they are going
to rationalize something that prevents those emotions from coming out. Part of that rationalization is the
denial that this even exists. It does a number of things. It allows the person to remain in homeostasis, in
other words, to not get upset because if it doesn't exist you don't have to be upset about it. If it does
exist, you not only have to be upset about it, you have to do something about it. You have to keep your
children safe.
I think the media really feeds into this as well.
We were also talking about earlier the whole aspect of betrayal. For instance - in a family - and this
happens over and over again. Let's say that one member of the family starts to recall these kinds of
events - some sort of multi-perpetrator sexual abuse or being in a child pornography ring and the father
and mother were part of how that child got into the pornography ring or were even part of that
pornography ring. Let's say it is one parent, the father. If then the other children in the family are in the
position of being confronted with this - let's say the same thing has happened to them and they have also
dissociated the memory. This information means that they can't maintain the same relationship with that
father. It means there is a betrayal that has to go on somewhere, either they were betrayed by that father
and they have to change that relationship with that father, or else they then can say that is a betrayal by
the child who is telling, and the child is making up a story.
This is part of the way both the criminal justice and the False Memory Foundation have manipulated
things. It has become a wonderful legal defence to blame the therapist because that way the adult
survivor is not being blamed. And that doesn't work well in the courts. Adult survivors who were in a lot
of pain and who were basically talking about horrifics events that happened to them - the courts would
often lean in their direction a number of years ago. It wasn't until the attorney started getting this defence
of "well okay they are not really doing this to the parent, it was that terrible therapist who is just out
there to make money who is implanting these memories in order to get this person to come back, so they
can earn money. It is the therapist's fault. It is not this poor victim who is not a victim of sexual abuse,
but is a victim of the therapist."
Wayne Morris:
While we are on the topic of False Memory Foundation, they have had a tremendous effect on the field
of psychotherapy. In your opinion how do you feel this foundation has affected the quality of care?
Gail Fisher-Taylor:
In a number of ways. The existence of the False Memory Foundation and the kinds of issues they are
talking about, the kinds of court cases they have encouraged their members to proceed with, against
therapists - I think have made all therapists careful, if it hasn't made all of us careful, it should make all
of us careful. In some ways I think it has had a very positive effect, but in some ways it has had a very
negative, harmful effect.
Let me talk about the positive first. I think that it has helped a lot of therapists be aware that it is not only
not safe for them in terms of ending up in court, but it's not good therapy to have suggestive, leading
questions. It's much better to ask open-ended questions like "can you tell me more?" rather than to ask a
leading question like, "was it your father who was doing that?" That's not good therapy to do that, and it
can have an influence on someone if a therapist or anyone continues to suggest something to someone
who is suggestible. It's probably a minority of the population who are suggestible.
The harmful effect is that it has certainly elevated the level of fear for therapists. I think that anyone in
therapy, not just in therapy - we all need to have experiences validated. We need to do reality checks. If I
talk at one of my children's PTA meetings and I may want to do a check with somebody who was there -
'was that reasonable what I said?' And if I do a check with a number of people who were there, what
they say is going to influence how I feel about what I said. And that is important for us. We are social
beings. We need that kind of validation. If someone has been abused - particularly if they have gone
through the kind of abuse that a lot of people don't know exists - like mind control or various kinds of
sadistic abuse - they need to have some sort of validation.
This becomes a dilemma. What is being recommended in a lot of the workshops and training that
psychiatrists and psychologists and other kinds of psychotherapists go through, is that basically the
message you give to the person who is recovering memory is, you have to find out for yourself what
your own experience is. On one level that is very true. No one can tell another human being what their
experience, what their truth is. But on another level - if the therapist is saying 'I don't know whether
ritual abuse really exists' - what they are saying in a way is 'I don't know whether you are psychotic or
not'. Psychosis is a disconnection from reality. There are some really profound implications of the
directions that therapists are taking for their own safety that I think really, as a profession, we have to
examine. Discussion is good and operating with challenges is very healthy, but I think operating out of
fear can be incredibly harmful and I think that is what's happening with a lot of therapists and as a result,
a lot of therapists are refusing to work with clients who are dissociative.
We have to be looking at how can there be good therapy that protects everybody, but also doesn't do the
client a disservice.
Wayne Morris:
And that expression of disbelief in a general sense of whether ritual abuse exists or not is not great
therapy from my understanding. It creates tremendous trauma in the client again.
Gail Fisher-Taylor:
This brings up another whole area. People don't want to believe these things have happened to them. Part
of the whole process, a healthy kind of therapeutic process, involves self questioning. It's very important
for the therapist not to come in and say, 'yes this happened to you' when the survivor is still wondering
'did it happen or did it not?' But I think that if the therapist is saying 'I don't know whether this kind of
thing can exist or whether this could have happened to you' and is basically implanting doubts, that's
what happening. The doubts are being fed. It is much better not to feed the doubts, nor to feed the
certainty. It is important to stay in some sort of position where the client is able to continue to take the
information that is coming up, and try to process it in an ethical way for herself or himself, but to also
look at 'what kind of outside corroboration is there here?' For instance if there is another sibling who has
similar kinds of experiences and if the person is not planning on going to court (because you wouldn't
want them to be sharing those experiences to avoid contamination of evidence if they were going into
the legal system or the criminal justice system). That can be one form of corroboration - if the sharing
happens after both people have been in their therapeutic processes for a period of time. There can be
other kinds of corroboration. Let's say they have a memory of something happening, being transported in
a particular kind of car. This is explicit memory and it could be wrong. But if it's right, it could be very
powerful - that they didn't know for example, they had a red Ford in 1964. Or they didn't know this little
building was located there and they go back and there it was. Maybe there were - as in Sybil - marks that
were made that they remember making during a particular incident.
Gail Fisher-Taylor:
Those kinds of reality checks can be very powerful and they may not hold in court, but ultimately this is
not what this process is about. It's about the person reclaiming self, and having that kind of external
validation can be extraordinarily helpful for a person.
Wayne Morris:
Do you think there might be possible dangers or pitfalls of the therapist in helping their clients get that
corroborative evidence?
Gail Fisher-Taylor:
It shouldn't be for evidence. A therapist is not a lawyer. Their job is not to go out and help the person
form a legal case. The therapist's job is to help the person do what he or she needs to do to heal. I think it
is very important to do reality checks, and I guess maybe reality check is a better way of talking about it
than getting evidence. It is basically looking at 'does this explicit way I am interpreting my implicit
memory have an accuracy to it?'
Wayne Morris:
How do you think the False Memory Foundation has affected resources for survivors of sexual or ritual
abuse, or mind control?
Gail Fisher-Taylor:
In terms of access to therapy, to groups which are dealing with this kind of material; in terms of funding.
The False Memory Foundation has really impaired access to these kinds of resources. In terms of books,
discussion groups, in terms of the internet - I don't think there has been impairment at all. I think in some
ways it has brought a lot of people together to try to advocate against the False Memory Foundation in
terms of what they are saying.
I do think that what the FMF says can be very harmful to people who are at the beginning or in the midst
of their processes. There is this cultural denial that the FMF is feeding, and it has an impact on a very
personal level. Families use this in their arguments against the survivor if there has been some kind of
confrontation.
The kinds of strategies which the FMF is encouraging are extremely intrusive and violating as Judith
Lewis-Herman said at the recent ISSD conference, they are using the same kind of intimidation tactics
that perpetrators have used in the abuse. There is a lot of 'perpetrator rage' there and the FMF is
harbouring a lot of perpetrators - maybe not every person who belongs - but there are a lot of people
who do belong, who I believe, have perpetrated and are using this as a front.
Wayne Morris:
Certainly there has been documented evidence of members of the Advisory Board being involved in
CIA mind control, active pedophiles, and so forth. One of the arguments they repeatedly use against
therapists is that false memories have been implanted in their clients. Do you feel that it is possible that
people may have false memories of sexual abuse?
Gail Fisher-Taylor:
I think a lot of people have false memories, most of us have some false memories. The way false
memories often go is that we tend to idealize people, idealize our families and what happened in our
families. We tend to not remember uncomfortable events vividly, we might change them, we might
think we had a wonderful family when in fact we had a family that argued all the time. Those are the
kinds of things that people tend to block out and there is research that really backs that up. It shows that
when there has been documented abuse or abusive situations (ie a group of boys were interviewed many
years later, and they tended to minimize the abuse rather than remember exactly how horrific it was.
People have false memories that idealize and minimize.
I have been talking about homeostasis. We try to find the things that are going to make us feel better, so
we tend to try to think that people are nicer than they are, or situations are safer than they really are. We
try to bring down our anxiety levels, we try to make ourselves feel better. And it makes a lot of sense to
me.
In terms of false memories in therapy, I've really had to look at that and realize that of course that can
happen. People are interpreting their experiences in ways that are inaccurate, that can be found to be
inaccurate. Explicit memory - they can remember something that happened yesterday in an accurate
way. But this also has to do with our adrenalin level. If an experience happens and we don't pay attention
to it, our adrenalin is pretty low. We don't remember all the details. We also filter out - something in our
brains called the 'reticular formation' which helps to filter out experiences. If we weren't filtering out,
and we were paying attention to the sounds, and the sights, and the smells, our emotions - all the things
at once - we would be overwhelmed. Our nervous systems wouldn't be able to handle it.
Filtering is a very important part of how we experience things, and how we remember our experiences.
If we are in a particular circumstance one day and we try to recall it the next, and our adrenaline wasn't
particularly high because it wasn't a significant moment in our lives, we may not remember things very
accurately. If it's much more significant to us, our adrenaline level will be higher and the adrenaline
level really affects how we remember things.
If something was really emotionally significant to us, we may remember certain aspects of things while
someone else who was involved in the same experience may remember totally different aspects. Other
things may have been significant to that person. Let's say the visual things were very important to us and
the other person was really tuned into the sounds. Let's say I am asked a question about the sounds - I
may be really inaccurate about the sounds and try to guess at things to try to answer the questions. If the
other person was asked about visual - the same thing may be happening to him or her. Accurate on the
sounds, but inaccurate on the visual. There are aspects of each person's experience that might be more
accurate and less accurate of a particular event.
In a therapy context, we do tend to fill in gaps. The research is very clear. We try to explain things that
made us uncomfortable and we might not have an explanation for. Good therapy will help the person
remain in uncertainty in those areas where there is uncertainty and to encourage a person not to do that
very natural process - not to exaggerate - it becomes very clear. What are the major areas of
concentration for someone who is a visual person, an auditory person, etc. What are the senses that are
most important for that person? How do they live their lives? It is very distressing to people, but they
need to learn that if they have a fragment of a memory here and a fragment there, and another there, it is
important not to force them altogether in a way that they won't fit. It's a very complex, difficult layered
process. It is very important though, when things do fit, to look at the correlations, but also to look at
that this may or may not be the way that it was.
Wayne Morris:
How does a group like the False Memory Spindrome Foundation use the nature of inaccurate memory
against survivors who have had legitimate histories of sexual abuse?
Gail Fisher-Taylor:
They take research about one kind of memory and they apply it to traumatic memory. And they take
research about ordinary, everyday explicit memory and they apply it. They act as if all memory operates
the same way everyday memory would operate. Now they are being a bit less extreme - they are
acknowledging that dissociation does occur. And it's not just one person. There are different people
speaking out for the organization. Different people have different takes. The whole argument about 'is
there such a thing as repressed memory?'
One of the people who is very active in the False Memory Foundation whose research has been used and
mis-used by the FMS is Elizabeth Loftus. Her studies are not done on traumatized people. She has
argued against the existence of repressed memory, and yet in a study she did with a number of other
colleagues, even though it was a smaller sample that had repressed memory - I believe it was 19% of
people who had repressed memory - even in Elizabeth Loftus' study. It's harder and harder as the
research accumulates to deny the existence of dissociation.
Wayne Morris:
I would like to thank you very much, Gail, for joining us. It has been fascinating talking to you.
Gail Fisher-Taylor:
Thank you.
Wayne Morris:
That was an interview with Gail Fisher-Taylor sharing her views and insights into the effects of trauma,
ritual abuse and mind control. Gail is a psychotherapist working in Toronto with trauma survivors.


Dr. Connie Kristiansen Interview
Mind Control Series
Wayne Morris:
Next we are going to hear an interview with Dr. Connie Kristiansen, a professor of psychology at
Carleton University in Ottawa. Dr. Kristiansen specializes in recovered memory research and sexual
abuse issues.
I would like to begin asking you about your background and what things you are working on with
regards to child abuse.
Connie Kristiansen:
I am trained as a social psychologist and I have been applying this background to first of all understand
the socio-psychological factors underlying people's opinions in the recovered memory debate. I have
also been examining the nature of women's recovered memories of child abuse and contrasting those
memories, for example, with the memories of women who never forgot their abuse. I have done some
research with adult women who have in fact survived child sexual abuse.
Generally I have been doing psycho-social analysis of the recovered memory debate and trying to gain
more insight into the nature of recovered memory. I understand you were attending the "Making Up For
Lost Time" conference in Thunder Bay, in 1994. What did you come away with that might have been
new information for you, were there any expectations going in to the conference?
Connie Kristiansen:
I guess the one thing I came away with was a greater appreciation for people's concern with ritual abuse
and the mind control experiments that have been done. In my mind I have difficulty believing some of
the stories that I heard. I am a little bit skeptical; however I know that people don't believe all sorts of
things that can indeed be true. I am trying to stay open minded with regard to extreme forms of abuse.
Wayne Morris:
With your experiences, how prevalent do you think child abuse is in our society? Maybe you could talk
about how many (from people that have been abused) do suffer memory repression, memory loss, or
dissociation?
Connie Kristiansen:
My understanding, and my estimate I would make of the incidents of abuse would be about 1 in 3
women being sexually abused prior to age 18, and maybe 1 in 5-6 men - basing these estimates on a
couple of large epidemiological studies done in both Canada and the United States. My review of the
literature to date as well as the findings of the Ottawa study we conducted here out of Carleton indicate
roughly between 40 - 60% of all women who were sexually abused had at least some memory loss for
the child abuse event. In the Ottawa survivors' study for example, about 50% of the sample 113 women
said that they had at least some memory loss.
Wayne Morris:
Can you talk about how that mechanism, for a lack of a better term, works for somebody who has
undergone trauma and experienced some kind of memory loss? What is going on in the brain and body.
Connie Kristiansen:
There have been a couple of processes that have been talked about to account for this memory loss. One
is repression, which I think is what most people think of and the evidence for repression whereby a
person unconsciously, unknowingly keeps a lid on something traumatic that they don't want to know
about. The evidence for that kind of unconscious processing and repression is actually quite weak. But
there is strong evidence that people will actively try to suppress information; and in fact Freud himself
sometimes spoke of repression as an active rather than an unconscious process. If you look at repression
as an active phenomenon, whereby a person tries to forget a traumatic event, and also forgets trying to
forget - then there is some evidence for repression. Probably what most researchers are looking at to
explain the memory loss of child sexual abuse is the notion of dissociation.
Dissociation is a type of altered state of consciousness that occurs as a result of trauma, and what
happens during trauma is that there are various neurochemical changes that occur in the form of what
you might call 'traumatic stress response' and these neurochemical changes are known to change and
adversely affect our conscious memory processes. It changes the neurochemicals that have been to be
associated with conscious memory process. These neurochemicals also affect various brain structures
physically that are responsible for conscious memory processing. Ultimately what seems to happen is
that during trauma, the neurochemicals overwhelm our normal memory system, and as a result, people
cannot remember traumatic abuse in the way we normally remember daily events.
Rather what does get stored at the time of trauma is a non-conscious type of memory which operates in a
different part of the brain which isn't made dysfunctional by the trauma. So the memories are laid down
in this alternative memory system, and the memories there are raw perceptual sensory bodily sensations
and emotions. They are not conscious memories - ie. I went to the store, then I did this, then I did that.
You might remember for example, when you went to the store the fumes of the diesel bus that had just
gone by but you would remember those fumes out of context, with no cognitive framework to embed it
in.
That's how we think memory is laid down at the time of trauma - in this bodily and sensory form. That's
actually what we have seen survivors tell us - that when they recover their memories they don't come
back the normal way like we talk about memory. The memories will come sort of willy-nilly, out of the
blue and the person will feel like they are literally re-living some part of that event. They have a smell,
an image, a sensation or an emotional experience that comes back and it doesn't make sense in the
current-day context. But what it is - is these fragments of sensory and emotional memory that are
flashing back into the present.
Wayne Morris:
Now, of course, this debate around recovered memory is being hotly debated in North America. There
are some groups out there that have been very active in pursuing lawsuits against therapists and
survivors that are coming forward. I am thinking particularly of the FMSF. What has your experience
been with that group?
Connie Kristiansen:
I know that some of my academic colleagues who would advocate in favour of False Memory Syndrome
have tried to bring me up on ethical charges. I hear that is something common by FMSF advocates -
trying to get the researchers on ethics. So far they haven't been successful. Other experiences I have had
with them? They will write to me sometimes - with little bits of information, sarcastic humour, nothing
too nasty.
Wayne Morris:
Are you aware of other therapists being intimidated by this group?
Connie Kristiansen:
Laura Brown - who is an active psychologist who worked on the review of the recovered memory issue
in the American Psychological Association. Laura Brown's office has been picketed on a regular basis,
she has been perpetually harassed. So I know there is a lot of harassment going on out there especially in
the States. Here in Canada I think we are a little more mellow. Give us 10 years. Maybe we will be on
par.
Wayne Morris:
How do you think this environment has changed the resources available for people who may suspect
they have been victims of child abuse?
Connie Kristiansen:
I gather that it hasn't been beneficial. Well, it's a knife that cuts both ways actually. In one sense the
publicity given to child abuse has made a lot of therapists and people who acknowledge the validity of
the research findings on which the information is based. People are learning about child abuse and they
are now taking it more seriously, so maybe it means better treatment, better resources to some extent.
One good consequence of the recovered memory controversy is that more money is being funded into
research on both sides of the camp. So we are going to learn more about traumatic memory one way or
the other. That can't be bad. Ultimately, hopefully, it will help survivors.
On the other hand I think it had a really bad impact on survivors in several ways. One is you hear the
Criminal Compensation Board being suspect about any claims based on recovered memory, so survivors
are having a rougher time getting some financial compensation because of this date. The Ottawa
survivors' study assessed how this debate was affecting these women and not surprisingly these women
said this debate was having an adverse effect on all the areas of their lives that had been previously
affected by the trauma. In other words this debate is revictimizing some of the survivors and making
them experience more of those symptoms again. So it is having a detrimental effect.
On the other hand a small minority said it has made them as mad as hell and they are getting out there to
do something about it. So I can see it is activating some women in a really positive way.
Wayne Morris:
You mentioned the FMSF using other people to attack therapists on the grounds of ethics. What other
kinds of arguments are they using? Are there indeed other organizations like FMSF that exist and have
been actively intimidating people?
Connie Kristiansen:
I don't know about any other organizations but what they are seeing is that some therapists are doing
what they call "voodoo therapy". In fact the FMSF has called me a "voodoo scientist". They are
claiming that some therapists are actually causing the creation of false memories. In the cases where
they are picketing and so on, I am pretty convinced that this isn't going on. A lot of psychologists know
what they are doing, they are doing good work with their clients, they are not suggesting things to their
clients. And I think some of the better work is probably being done by the feminists because they have a
sort of non-authoritarian style. They are not inclined to tell clients what they think happened or what
caused their state of being this way. Whereas more traditional psychiatric approaches tend to have an
idea of what the person is like before they have even met the person, more judgemental, they impose
their own reality on the client. So I think the feminists have a good approach in terms of working with
recovered memory simply because they try to empower the client to take better care of themselves,
rather than the therapist looking after the client and telling them what her reality is.
Wayne Morris:
What kind of approaches do therapists take with clients in order to avoid being accused of implanting
memories, and has this changed because of the rise of the FMSF?
Connie Kristiansen:
I know some therapist have actually refused to take on clients who might take their alleged perpetrators
to court on the basis of recovered memory. Other therapists have stopped treating survivors altogether.
Others are being especially careful to monitor their behaviour, to make sure they are not suggestive,
particularly when any abuse stuff comes up.
So people are using different approaches I think - depending on how confident they feel in themselves,
and I don't mean in terms of their ability - but how they could deal with a potential lawsuit and whether
they really want to face that possibility.
Wayne Morris:
Do people have ways of documenting - like taping the sessions, things like that?
Connie Kristiansen:
I think a lot of therapists are learning that if they are going to use techniques like hypnosis they should
ideally have an audiovisual session, because in that way there is clear evidence exactly how suggestive
was the process. So that's highly recommended that you tape everything when it comes to be about sort
of abuse issues.
Wayne Morris:
Some of the arguments in this debate are ie. children just making up stories just to get back at their
parents for whatever reason. How difficult is it do you think to tell whether somebody is actually just
making up a story or there is real signs of abuse there?
Connie Kristiansen:
I imagine it would probably be pretty difficult. One of the things we did in the Ottawa survivors study
was look to see if we could identify anybody who had this unrecognized identity called 'false memory
syndrome'. What we did is we developed a list of the symptoms of FMS based on the writings of the
FMSF and Advisory Board members and we went out and documented how many women with
recovered memories satisfied these criteria. And the rate was very, very low - a few percent of the
women with recovered memory could potentially be classified as having FMS. The rate was just as high
though with the women who had never forgotten their abuse and had continuous memory. So those
criteria don't seem to differentiate continuous from recovered memories.
Moreover some of the criteria are downright silly. One of them was you should suspect a claim of abuse
if it is denied by the alleged perpetrator. Well, I would expect that many perpetrators would deny abuse
had actually occurred. I am not surprised that the criteria didn't differentiate. Another criteria said these
children were blissfully happy as young children and teenagers and they were doing very well in life
until they met the therapist who implanted the memories. When we looked at the data, we found that the
women with recovered memories reported as much as symptomatology in childhood and teen years as
the women with continuous memories reported. So their symptom levels are basically the same which
was contrary to what the FMSF was claiming.
Wayne Morris:
Well, thank you very much Connie for joining us on CKLN. I wish you all the best in your work.
Connie Kristiansen:
Thank you.


Ritual Abuse Panel
Gail Fisher-Taylor
& Caryn Stardancer
Mind Control Series
Wayne Morris:
This is broadcast 46 of the radio series that has been going on for about one whole year on this show
concerning government military mind control and cult ritual abuse. Today we are going to be focusing
on the latter aspect of this - ritual abuse and we are going to be talking about a lot of different issues
within that topic and I have with us in the studio Toronto psychotherapist, Gail Fisher-Taylor and we
should have by phone, Caryn Stardancer, a California-based advocate for survivors and publisher of
"Survivorship".
Gail Fisher-Taylor:
I am a psychotherapist in Toronto. I also do consultation as well as education in terms of workshops, and
one of my areas is definitely focusing ritual abuse, sadistic abuse, cult abuse.
Caryn Stardancer:
I am a survivor myself, and when I was in recovery there really wasn't anything being said about ritual
abuse, cult abuse or mind control that I knew about. There weren't any resources available, so when I
finished my recovery, myself and another survivor began publication of a small newsletter that we were
doing on my friend's kitchen table and sending it out. Now we have an international non-profit. We have
members in every state of the USA, and all the provinces in Canada, Europe, Australia, New Zealand.
Our membership is made up of survivors and professionals who treat them.
Wayne Morris:
I would like to just briefly review the ritual abuse aspects of the series of the past year as it ties into
government mind control. We have heard from Dr. Stephen Kent, Professor of Sociology at the
University of Alberta, who specializes in contraversial religious groups, and ritual abuse, alleged abuse
in this context.
We have also heard from Lynne Moss-Sharman, a survivor and advocate who started The Stone Angels
group for ritual abuse survivors from the Thunder Bay area and her testimony of the prevalence of ritual
abuse in that area, more particularly within the Masonic Lodge context. We have also heard from
Jeanette Westbrook, a survivor in the United States. Her father and his friends had allegedly ritually
abused her as a child and teenager, and it's very interesting in that she did attemptl to bring her father to
court. He died just before being extradited to face charges. Her father was responsible for all the nuclear
power plant inspections in the United States, not to mention being a Mormon church deacon, boy scout
leader, 33 degree Mason, and so forth.
We heard the testimony given to the U.S. government radiation hearings by Claudia Mullen, and the
ritual aspects of her experimentation. We heard from quite a number of other people - other survivors of
government mind control that has also had a ritual abuse aspect. There seem to be many levels of this
kind of activity, and I would like to talk about that.
We have heard from government mind control survivors who have experienced ritual abuse in that
context, for a particular purpose. There have also been many allegations of people being involved local
cult activity. I would like to ask you both what your experiences or perceptions are in terms of the
different levels of cult activity and its purpose.
Caryn Stardancer:
Without trying to go on too long (these things can sometimes turn into hours), my abuse started in the
forties, WWII. So obviously some of the things I first saw were a mixture of people who were involved
in military, and who were in power settings and were doing that kind of experimentation. There were
also Masonic connections. In the time I was given "mentorship" I was told there was something called
The Pantheistic Occult, and essentially what that meant was that there are all different kinds of systems
under which mind control can be perpetrated (or belief systems, religious beliefs, political beliefs).
Basically the idea is that you target a person - by where their vulnerabilities are - dependent upon their
cultural or educational group, the profession in which they are involved, where their vulnerabilities are -
by what they already believe.
There are different ways people are brought into the system. Some of them are churches - there was
certainly a church involved in the early contact with my family. What the Pantheistic Occult basically
meant was that it basically doesn't matter what the belief system is, it depends on the person's
adaptability, the way they respond to issues of power, and you move your way up depending on your
adaptability. You may never know that there is a group larger than the one you are involved in, or you
may, depending on how you move through the system, and also how the people who are in contact with
you move through the system.
Wayne Morris:
When you say it doesn't really matter in terms of the specific ideology, do you think the religious or
belief systems involved here are a front for the abuse, or for other criminal activity? What part does that
play in these groups?
Caryn Stardancer:
Definitely. For example, the people who were teaching me about the Pantheistic Occult were directly
involved in what was called a Dionysian Sect. That was explained as having started in pre-Christian
times - it had to do with the profession they were involved in - which was the Law. Essentially most of
what they were doing was political blackmail. The use of the children had to do with having them
adapted to sex - for example, having them photographed in a film with adults who were being
blackmailed. It was then easy to manipulate them.
The people bought into it more or less. Some were very cynical about it, and said it was all about power,
it didn't really matter. Other people really "believed". It's so individual how different people respond.
For example, in the one church I went to some people were very much involved in satanism, and very
much believed, but other people would just laugh about it privately and just say it's the system to get the
minions, to terrorize them. In that sect, in all of the different groups I've been exposed to, and that's what
I hear from survivors over the world, that it really depends on who you are, and who you are in contact
with - how much people believe. The belief system is used essentially to indoctrinate, entrance, terrorize
- and it's part of the mind control system in that all mind control is a conditioned response where
feelings are put together with ideas.
Wayne Morris:
It seems like the common thread here, irregardless of how seriously the participants take their ideology,
is the criminal activities. Perhaps Gail, you could talk about the commonality of the criminal activity
within the accounts of ritual abuse survivors.
Gail Fisher-Taylor:
There is a lot of criminal activity, and some people actually talk about ritual abuse being used as a
smoke-screen for criminal activity. Certainly there are the child and adult pornography and prostitution
rings; drug trafficking. There are often reports from survivors of cult connections with organized crime
which is the Mafia. We are talking about really different kinds of groups as well. I have heard reports
from survivors of what seem to be groups of people who get together and have maybe an informal local
cult, and maybe deal in some level of pornography and prostitution. It seems quite local actually. And I
have also, as Caryn Stardancer is reporting, heard many reports of much more organized activity where
the cults have connections that go far beyond local activity. And those seem to be the cults that get into
the organized criminal activity.
Wayne Morris:
We are going to be opening the phone lines at around 10 o'clock, so if any of our listeners have any
questions they would like to put to the panelists, please get ready to do so.
I would like to get a sense, in terms of the local cults, and however those start up - how widespread, in
your opinion, is this kind of activity happening across North America?
Caryn Stardancer:
I would say it is very widespread, considering we have members from all over the place, from cities to
small towns, and also when I was growing up my exposure was from rural areas to cities. When you talk
about the larger organization - often in a local group a small group may not know anything about a
larger organization, and maybe only one person in that group - who basically is coming in and has a
charismatic power - and that person may be networked beyond, but no one else in the group ever finds
out that the person may be involved in a number of different groups, and is moving around. Things are
very eclectic.
Gail Fisher-Taylor:
A friend of mine, Christine Oksana, who wrote "Safe Passage to Healing" which is a guide basically for
ritual abuse survivors, talks about ritual abuse as being interwoven in the fabric of society, basically
world-wide. Something else she talks about is the idea that when people are abused, traumatic re-
enactment is really ritual. There is a ritualization when people are re-enacting their trauma. What I mean
by that is that when people are traumatized, they repeat something to do with their traumas, trying to
resolve the trauma in some sort of way.
For instance if somebody has been sexually abused, they may have ritualized kinds of activities that they
keep on doing, and don't understand why they are doing it, they are not connecting it to their trauma.
What happens is that when people are re-enacting traumatic events - eg. if someone has been sexually
abused, and they are perpetrating sexual abuse as an adult and they get together with other abusive
people who have also been sexually abused and are re-enacting - there is a ritualization that occurs. We
have everything from informal groups getting together - and as Caryn says, I agree, I think there is often
networking involved and it's interesting how the networking can occur on those informal and formalized
bases. I think the explanation of trauma underneath a lot of this activity really explains the great draw
people have to do these terrible activities.
Caryn Stardancer:
Very much so, and it can come from either direction. It can be people who are re-enacting their trauma
and someone may get interested in the whole mechanism of how having a belief system helps relieve the
feeling that "I am doing something wrong". You may have one person who is very bright who starts to
look into it and learn more, and then find out there are more people in different places doing it, and then
network from that direction. Or you may have people who have always had their family or their
connections in the system that come into contact with people who have been traumatized for example by
prostitution, sex clubs, pornography, and in that way bring people into the group. That's why I mean it is
very eclectic.
And then you have these lone psychopathic personalities who are behaving ritualistically, but to the
victim, it doesn't really matter that much whether it's one person enacting ritualistic torture or whether
it's a whole group of people. The response to it is pretty much the same.
Wayne Morris:
Within this ritual activity, there have been a lot of allegations of children being used for either sacrificial
victims or further traumatization of the children for the purposes of mind control. How typically are
children introduced into these cults?
Caryn Stardancer:
There are too many ways to say there is a typical way. Some are born into it, some just happen to be in
the wrong place at the wrong time. It's pretty universal however, and I think it also has a psychological
basis in that anyone who has been abused, and now that we are building on centuries and centuries of
abuse - it requires loss of innocence. There is a part of the psyche that responds to the idea of sacrifice of
innocence because you have lost your own, and then there is the other parts that just have to do with how
lucrative it is financially to involve children, and also how easy it is to condition and terrorize children,
teach them anything you want to teach them. There are so many different reasons, and so many different
scenarios. There isn't a simple answer.
Gail Fisher-Taylor:
That's what we get a lot of reports of. Of course there are the daycare cases where children are abused in
daycare settings, and there are many reports where children get involved in these cults through their
families or neighbourhood cults, but as Caryn says, there are a number of different ways that people get
involved - through babysitters, becoming involved with adults who are involved in the cults.
Wayne Morris:
What do you think is the force that has created these cult activities? Are they are in a sense 'home-
grown' in terms of the local cults, or is there generally another kind of connection there that goes back to
these organized religious groups, intelligence and military connections?
Gail Fisher-Taylor:
Again, I think we have a lot of different scenarios, and you have to remember that there is a long and
deep history here. We have reports of satanic cults, and other kinds of cults, that go back centuries.
There was certainly a big cult around Louis XIV's time, for instance, with not just reports, but forensic
evidence that there were sacrifices of children, all kinds of satanic alters found. It's quite a well
documented case. We have cults in history, we know cults exist and we keep getting reports of cults that
are involved in the kind of criminal activity we are talking about, whether or not the belief system has to
do with satanism or some other kind of belief system - if there is criminal activity, and terrorizing of
children, and mind control - we are basically talking about ritual crime.
Caryn Stardancer:
Also when you have a belief system - a belief system can either be used to uplift or to subjugate - and
that goes back to the beginning of time. For example since I was born in a generational system, there
were people there who talked about the occult tradition, and they traced it back directly to pre-Christian
Dionysians. They had a whole occult tradition where they interpreted history, and they had stories about
the different things that happened to the movement of their group. And that was just one sect that I was
exposed to.
At the same time I have talked to people who are in Native American and Aboriginal groups who have
had their belief systems perverted by - it can even be by just one person who had been sexually abused
who then began to pervert the rituals for control. There are just so many different ways - and essentially
we just have to realize that a belief system can be used either to uplift or subjugate. That's why there are
so many different permutations and why it is all the way through history.
Wayne Morris:
A Christian belief system can be reinforced in part of the cult members' lives as a jumping board for the
satanic belief system in their cult activity? Do you see that duality?
Caryn Stardancer:
In Christian and satanic cults, absolutely because that is the cultural context in which good and evil is
interpreted, so certainly you see Christian groups who use satanism, and you have satanic groups who
use Christianity. You have Christian groups who simply the concept of Christianity - that's the way it is.
It just depends on the group and the people and their interpretation, and their connections. It's a belief
system, and a belief system can be used to subjugate or uplift. So certainly it is used to subjugate in a lot
of different instances.
Wayne Morris:
My point more was whether a Christian belief system has been fostered within the satanic cults, so that
the satanic rituals will have more - there seems to be a perversion of Christianity in satanism. And I
wonder whether they foster the Christian belief systems in order to pervert them in their cult rituals. And
I am talking about the same people here.
Caryn Stardancer:
Essentially that's what I meant by the cultural context, and a culture that has a lot of Christians is always
going to have the other side. That's just the duality of Christianity and satanism.So you are always going
to see those things, and yes, they definitely utilize the belief system that has to do with the symbols of
satan and Christ as representing good and evil. One of the things that helps - when you say 'occult"
meaning 'secret' - I believe the occult belief system goes hand-in-hand with the evolution of human
rights. So as you develop human rights, you make laws against abuse. And when you make laws against
using beliefs for abuse, then that abuse goes underground. That doesn't mean that there aren't countries
where a religious political system allows abuse because they don't have human rights yet that have
outlawed that activity.
Gail Fisher-Taylor:
What you are saying basically Caryn, is that the abuse goes underground if there are laws against it and
that it is overt if there aren't laws against it, if it is allowed to happen out in the open.
Caryn Stardancer:
Exactly, and I am sorry I have a dissociative disability and I have a difficult time with telephones so I
have trouble tracking my thoughts since I am a survivor myself.
Gail Fisher-Taylor:
I think your thoughts are going very clearly.
Wayne Morris:
Definitely. I would also like to get a feeling for your impressions of particularly the cult leaders - their
social status - and how can they get away with operating these cults within the public society?
Gail Fisher-Taylor:
The cult leaders come from, again, a number of different contexts. But I think what is shocking, and
what is difficult for people to believe, is when those cult leaders happen to also be leaders in other
contexts. In other words, leaders in business, leaders in government, leaders in the military. And there
certainly lots of reports where this is what is being reported.
Caryn Stardancer:
In my experience the leaders were always people of power, because the system was about the hierarchy
of power.
Gail Fisher-Taylor:
And in terms of the way they get away with it - the structures of power are such that if there are
members of the cult who are both leaders in business, leaders in terms of let's say members of the police
department, members of the criminal justice system - judges or lawyers - it becomes often - in these
kinds of contexts - an old boys' network. You've got people protecting other people so if there is any
kind of revelation that this kind of activity is going on, their members in the media are going to
participate in the cover-up, or in the blasphemy, outrageousness of such allegations. If the police
department is involved - and there are often reports of police being involved. In Saskatchewan, for
instance, the Martensville case. It is very easy for police to conduct an investigation that will throw their
whole case out of court for instance. If you have a lot of people in many different positions of power,
and there is collusion among them, it is much more difficult especially when the public doesn't know
about the principles of dissociation and the way that trauma works, the way that the human psyche
works around trauma. It is very easy for the media, police and criminal justice system to play on the
public's disbelief.
Caryn Stardancer:
Also all we have to do is look at something like Watergate or the current Monica Lewinsky case, and
look at how difficult it is to get the facts. In the Monica Lewinsky case, if anything happened, it was sex
between two adults - look how difficult it is to get any kind of information. When I was a child, you
would have something that would be like a private birthday party for a powerful person in town. At that
birthday party, drugs were ingested that the people didn't know about - some happened to be judges or
police or certain lawyers - people who have power in that town. In the course of the evening they would
be photographed having sex with little children, under the influence of drugs, but that didn't make any
difference. If then people had those films, how far are you going to get in prosecuting if the people who
bring the case have that kind of blackmail evidence available against them?
Gail Fisher-Taylor:
I think you bring up a really important point, Caryn. The way a lot of these organizations operate is
through implication and intimidation. If these people are implicated in this criminal activity, they are
drawn in, and they can be drawn in and blackmailed as you say, under the influence of drugs, and under
other kinds of influences.
Wayne Morris:
This of course has profound implications for our society where we are supposed to be electing public
officials who will represent the public, but really how healthy of a system can that be when these layers
of blackmail are happening right up the hierarchy.
Caryn Stardancer:
It has always been this way. The stories I was told for example, by the Dionysian Sect - the oldest laws
ever passed against ritual abuse were passed in Rome before Christ and they were made against the very
Dionysians Sects that were still in operation in the forties and fifties, and which I assume are still in
operation now. The reason the laws were made against them was because at that time there were citizens
and then there were people who were not citizens - and it was known that in the rituals there were sexual
orgies, flaying (skinning of people), flagellation, abuse and ritual rape of women and children. That isn't
why there were laws made against the groups - the laws were made against the groups because of the
practice of common commission of crime for the purpose of political blackmail.
Wayne Morris:
I would like to focus now on survivor issues, and what your experiences are in terms of resources
available for survivors, and how that has been changing over the last ten years or so?
Caryn Stardancer:
Well, compared to when I was in recovery, there are a lot of resources and a lot of information. However
when we first started making that recovery - it was a lot better climate. Now there is the backlash, and
the backlash is having a very chilling effect on the availability of services in that even a therapist who
treats a survivor is running risks at this point of suit under the guise of "alleged false memories". It is
really difficult at this point, although there are still resources available. As I said, Survivorship has
members all over the place, and we provide as much information as possible and there are still people
willing to take the risk of providing treatment and giving information.
Gail Fisher-Taylor:
I would like to say that Survivorship is an excellent resource - a lot of people I work with have found it,
and I have found it to be a really excellent resource. I am wondering Caryn if you could provide
information on how to contact you because Survivorship is one of the best sources of information
available today.
Caryn Stardancer:
We have an address in San Francisco: 3181 Mission St. #139, San Francisco, California, 94110. We also
have e-mail svship@bigfoot.com and we have a website www.ctsserver.com/~svship
Wayne Morris:
Can you describe what kind of issues you deal with, and what Survivorship typically deals with in an
issue.
Caryn Stardancer:
Our focus is the use of belief systems and abuse together - members are everyone from those who have
experienced ritualistic torture, political torture, religious torture, mind control, government mind control.
Basically it's across the board because our focus is to help people get out of a traumatic conditioned
response lifestyle. The way we address it - it's a non-profit organization - we have a real eclectic kind of
approach - we talk about politics, we talk about recovery, personal experience. We allow people the
ability to do their art and their writing. As well we have sections for teens, Gen-X, family members,
partners, children (survivors and children of survivors). We take a broad approach - this type of abuse
impacts every aspect of a person's humanity. You have to address every aspect of that person in order to
have healing. And healing is what we are really interested in - freedom to experience free will, a quality
of life they may never have known.
Gail Fisher-Taylor:
I think fortunately the litigation in Canada has not gone so berserk as it has in the States. In terms of
litigation Canada tends to be more conservative and there are fortunately more barriers to litigation.
Although I do think it's on the increase and we tend to be often about 10 years behind the US. I would
say the backlash has had a tremendous effect - an impact on therapists who are treating survivors and it
certainly has had an impact on survivors who are recalling this kind of abuse. As they uncover what has
happened to them, they have a certain kind of resistance that is protective, to wanting to believe this
themselves - so when the environment is feeding back to them that this doesn't exist, or can't exist, and
there is all the false memory propaganda, as I like to call it - in the media - I think it has quite a harmful
impact on survivors.
On the other hand, one of the things that is happening with survivors is that when they are able to
network, when they are able to get good information such as the information that is available in
Survivorship - then there's strengthening that occurs against the backlash as well. And I know a number
of very strong survivors speaking out against the false memory foundation.
Caryn Stardancer:
The wonderful thing about global communication at this point is now the door is open and it can't be
shut. Throughout history when the door has been opened before, it has been pretty easy to shut.
Essentially you would have a few people talking, and a few people could be easily silenced, and they
had no way of knowing there were a few people in the next town, and a few people in another country
talking about the same thing. They cannot silence us at this point. It is not possible.
Gail Fisher-Taylor:
I think also there are some legal cases where ritual abuse is involved, and certainly in Canada there have
been some prosecutions where ritual abuse has been a component of the abuse that has been prosecuted
successfully. We had a big case in Prescott, Ontario where there have been signed confessions around
ritual activity.
Caryn Stardancer:
I also think it is really fortunate that in Canada you had some press coverage of some notorious cases - I
am thinking of the Mt. Cashel - the religious abuse in orphanages - and that was well publicized before
the backlash so it isn't that difficult for people to go 'wait a minute, this really happened.' So when you
have people coming along saying it doesn't happen - it isn't quite as effective.
Gail Fisher-Taylor:
I think what has been really useful is when the cases are prosecuted on the pornography rings - on the
criminal activity that people know happen - and when these kinds of child prostitution rings, child
pornography rings - when they are broken and when there is investigatiion into them and successful
prosecution - that really does help. I think there are more and more investigations and prosecutions into
those kinds of specific concentrations of criminal activity.
Caryn Stardancer:
i think one of the things that is pretty instructive though is to see, for example in the United States I have
seen newspapers practically side by side at times - news reports about cult activity, notoriously during
the Branch Davidian disaster. There was another case with a small church in the Bay area - torture - and
at the same time, in the same paper - there were false memory articles saying 'this didn't happen, this is
all made up, this never happens.' These things would be side by side and people still wouldn't see it - and
the thing that is interesting to me is that these are people reading the paper who supposedly didn't even
have mind control - the denial is so pervasive the readers can almost have a split mind about it. Without
having forced dissociative systems.
Wayne Morris:
People listening to this radio series have wondered about themselves, and looked at their own lives,
wondering if there has been any kind of abuse that occurred during their own childhood. Are there any
suggestions you can give people with those questions in their minds?
Gail Fisher-Taylor:
This is one of those tricky areas the false memory people pounce on if you talk about these things. There
are a lot of indicators that somebody has had an abusive history. Some of the indicators are panic attacks
- and within those panic attacks they are getting basically flashbacks which may not be recognized as
such of violence or sex and violence, and people in black robes - basically what they are getting is
fragments of memory that have been dissociated suddenly surfacing. Certainly dissociation indicates that
there has been repeated trauma in somebody's life, so if someone finds they are spacing out a lot - in
other words, there are minutes, maybe hours or maybe days of time they can't fully account for - with
only vague recollections - this is an indication that there has been some sort of trauma in that person's
life and it's probably a useful thing to get some therapeutic help from someone who knows about
dissociation. Certainly there are other kinds of indicators - people who I have worked with have found
with have found strange things in their houses or apartments that they can't account for. It may be
something like blood for instance, or someone left a glove behind, and they don't know where these
things came from. This doesn't mean that ritual abuse took place specifically - but if there are a number
of things that the person can't account for, and is confused about, it's useful to start with help, I suggest,
to try to understand what some of the explanations might be. There are many many indicators that abuse
has occurred. It's a complex topic and it is part of the reason why it is so difficult to counter the false
memory quick media bites because dissociation, traumatic memory, all of these things are quite a bit
more complex, and can't really be understood with a quick five second or even five minute explanation.
Wayne Morris:
This is Mr. Grant on the line. Do you have a question or a comment for a panel.
Caller:
This is from a book I bought in 1989 and read right through in 1990. I will just read the blurb on the
back, and I think you will get the picture. It's by Louis Zamoski. It's called, "Behind the Facade of the
Masonic Temple: Masonry and financial capital, Masonry and the war machine, Masonry and profit -
when you lay bare such links, you also expose yourself to the risk that your opponents will charge you
with simplification, but what will the reader say when he hears that the basic law of the Masons central
project is merely the law of profit, and also the establishment of a world economic government. Who
said so? A Marxist, an anti-Masonic scribbler? Far from it. Those words came from Licio Gelli, friend
and supporter and a member of the P-2 Lodge, writer Pierre Capri. Pierre Capri explains that the point
concerns placing society under control of particular corporations which identify themselves with an
economic power. At the same time, directly or indirectly, they are also identified with political powers."
This was published by Progress Publishers in 1989 in Moscow. If you remember that was the year of the
so-called collapse of Communism. That's all I have to say. I agree with all of this I have just read.
Wayne Morris:
Great. Thank you for your comments Mr. Grant. I think you have raised an important point here. We
have been hearing allegations against the Masonic Lodge, generally high-ranking members. Their
historical positions in society have been quite formidable. We are going to go to another caller now.
Caller:
It's more of a question. I have a close friend who is involved in the Emin Society. Is anyone
knowledgeable of that?
Wayne Morris:
I'm not.
Gail Fisher-Taylor:
What can you tell us about it?
Caller:
It's a group in London, England that is operating here in Toronto and the members donate $160 per
month for the ability to go and hear dissertations on how the establishment is not really a source of truth,
or the true establishment. I am really just calling to get an authoritative view on that if you are
knowledgeable about it. Perhaps my question is misguided.
Wayne Morris:
We can't help. I don't know if Caryn has heard of that group - (Emin Society. (Caryn hadn't heard of it
either.)
One other thing I wanted to touch on is what is the importance of spiritual healing to somebody who had
undergone ritual abuse, and really have been spiritually abused.
Caryn Stardancer:
My feeling is that all abuse impacts spiritually. The vast majority of survivors that I have talked with and
know, feel that spiritual healing is one of the most important parts; however there are some survivors
who feel they really don't want to deal with this at all, having had this type of abuse. But statistically
most people feel that it is one of the most important parts of their healing although it may be one of the
later stages. It really depends on the person.
Gail Fisher-Taylor:
I would agree with that. It can be very frightening to deal with the spiritual abuse and I think that
spirituality has to be interpreted in a very broad sense. A lot of survivors of ritual abuse have been
abused in an organized religious context and are very afraid to get involved in that aspect of spirituality.
Although there are many other ways they find spiritual healing possible - often outside of the context of
organized religion, and are interpreting spirituality in a very broad and open sense.
Wayne Morris:
I believe Alex is on the line.
Alex:
I kind of wanted to go back to the caller who made the reference to Masonry. There is something I
would like to clarify about that whole position. I think it is important to point out that Masonry as it is
popularly understood here in North America and throughout most of Europe is not the Masonry that the
previous gentleman was referring to. He was referring to a particular like Black Lodge type of Masonry
called the P-2 in Italy and I understand that there is somewhat of a sinister Lodge in France. But the
Masonry that is basically stretched throughout the rest of the world - Grand Lodge or Blue Lodge
Masonry - has really nothing to do with mind control or cult activity or anything of that sort. So I think it
is good to get that out there because a lot of people might get that confused and think that well maybe
their Uncle or their Grandfather or even perhaps their Father was engaged in some sort of mind control
practice which is complete and utter rubbish.
Wayne Morris:
The reference to the P-2 Lodge, Propaganda Due Lodge in Italy is an illegal branch of the Masonic
Lodge.
Alex:
Hold on. This is the point I am trying to bring up though. Masonry as it is constituted in North America
and throughout most of the world falls under the jurisdiction of the Grand Lodge which is in England in
the U.K. Now the Lodges in France and the Lodges in Italy have basically been blackballed by the
Grand Lodge in England because of its nefarious activities. They are formal and separate organizations.
It might be perhaps back in the 1750's that at one time they were all together under one roof, but for
about the past 200 hundred years they have been separate organizations. And Masonry, like for instance
the Masonic Temple down there on Yonge Street, you know the one I mean - that sort of Masonry has
nothing to do with the type of Masonry that gets involved in all these political industries.
Wayne Morris:
I am afraid I would have to disagree with you in the respect that we have heard allegations from across
North America alleging that they have been abused in a ritual abuse context or sexually abused by high
ranking Masons of the same Scottish Rite and the York Rite of the mainstream Masonry. Now that is not
to say that all Masons are engaged in this type of activity - in fact I would think that the majority are not,
and have no knowledge of it. But we have heard allegation after allegation of high ranking Masons in
these organizations who are engaged in this type of activity.
Thank you very much for your comments caller. I am afraid we are going to have wrap it up. We are
actually over time in our panel discussion. I would like to thank both Caryn Stardancer and Gail Fisher-
Taylor very much for participating in our panel discussion.


Don Gillmor
Author of "I Swear by Apollo"
Mind Control Series
Wayne Morris:
Good morning and welcome to another International Connection. This is actually our last show in our
radio series on mind control which has been running almost a year now on this time slot. Today we are
going to be finishing off the series with a discussion on government and military mind control. Last
week we had a panel on the ritual abuse aspects of mind control, and this week we are focusing on the
history of government in developing mind control. I am joined in the studio by Don Gillmor who is the
author of "I Swear By Apollo" one of the original books to come out about Dr. Ewen Cameron and the
experiments that were done at McGill University in Montreal. We are going to be taking phone calls for
this show and you can direct comments or questions to Don or myself. We are going to introduce what
we are going to talk about.
First of all Don, I would like to get your comments about the CBC movie, The Sleep Room.
Don Gillmor:
I saw the second half of it, the last 2 hours which dealt with the lawsuit. From what I understand the first
2 hours was better, a more accurate representation of what happened. I have heard since that they were
going more for a truth of the spirit as opposed to truth of the fact - they had scenes in the second half that
certainly didn't take place and they used the sexier elements you need for made-for-tv (they had a young
attractive woman as Joe Rauh's assistant as opposed to an earnest enterprising young guy as was the case
with James Turner). The aspects that were the most interesting in the television show were the fact that
they showed the futility and difficulties in taking a group of largely disenfranchised group of people and
trying to sue one government, and in this case it ended up being two governments - just what you are up
against. And how the burden of proof is on those people. It is so difficult to prove their case - which is to
say there is no doubt that these people were damaged and I think in the minds of most people there is no
doubt that Cameron certainly exacerbated that.
But then you go to the case of, 'well these people already had problems'. You have then how much
culpability does the government have and how much culpability does the American government have
given that they funded $67,000 worth of an ongoing program. You end up with all these kinds of issues -
who is to blame ultimately? I think the culpability can be spread around, but ultimately you have to look
at Cameron in this case as being the most specific cause of all these problems.
Wayne Morris:
But I would also like to put that in the context of the wider picture. We have seen now other groups of
victims of government experimentation come forward - I am speaking of the syphilis experiments in
Tuskagee and also the radiation experiments that were exposed at the hearings in Washington, and the
Presidential apology. It seems like this is recurring - it all seems very familiar. The larger issue here at
stake is that governments of the world should not be experimenting on their citizens for military or
intelligence or for whatever purposes. It seems like the United States has a history of abusing their
citizens and citizens in other countries for experimentation. I am just wondering when it is going to stop.
There has been most recently a Bill put forward by Senator John Glenn to try to curb or end human
experimentation. There is pressure from various lobby groups. Also Bill Clinton himself sent out a
Presidential Memo in March 1997 informing all branches of government not to engage in
experimentation on humans with uninformed consent.
Don Gillmor:
Certainly that's been a problem, it has been a problem in the past. But I think when you look at it you
have to look at the degrees of sophistication that are taking place. Back in the fifties for example you
have this incredibly disorganized approach to mind control. The CIA essentially trying and funding
anything - anything that caught their eye. There is another guy at McGill - Harold Prince - who was
studying the Aruba Indians in Nigeria. They gave him $17,000 just in the off chance that something
would come out of it. It was an incredibly disorganized shot-gun approach.
In the cases of say, the syphilis experiments, what you have is a paradigm. You will always have a
researcher who is ambitious enough to push the edge of the envelope as far as ethics go. And you will
always have groups who are disenfranchised enough that they either have no power over what is
happening, or they will in fact 'volunteer'. You will get people who are poor enough that they will take
the $50 a day and go and be the experimental subject. When you say these things have to stop, I think
that's true. It's a question of can you simply stop them by decree - I don't think so. I think there is a kind
of organic quality. You always find these things rising up. As long as you have these sets of social
problems, as long as you have the medical system working the way it does - the more successful
research papers you have, the more research money you are going to get - you are going to have these
kinds of situations happening on a subtler basis than they happened back in the 1950's. It's still
happening.
Wayne Morris:
That raises a couple of points. To end this it is going to be a movement of the people that end this, or act
as a watch group over these activities. It seems like the government or the various individuals and
organizations involved in this kind of research don't seem to be able to put those ethical limits onto
themselves for a number of reasons. As always it is going to take public pressure both to expose this,
and to prevent future incidents of abuse.
It also raises important questions about the techniques and practices of psychiatry as a whole. We are
seeing unbelievable rises in the use of ECT today - and these are the same things that Cameron was held
accountable for and his victims were reimbursed. It is an ongoing problem. Those issues have to be
addressed by the wider psychiatric community as well.
Don Gillmor:
The electroshock is an interesting case because it is sort of the great guilty secret of the psychiatric
profession in that there is a fair amount of disapproval, but it's always been cited as one of the things that
"works" - the reason for the disapproval is because it is very intrusive, and partly because there is still no
recognized methodology on how it works. No one knows why it appears to work. They say it works, and
they mean in the case of severe depressives who were suicidal before ECT, and now they are not. If you
are looking at it from that kind of profit and loss equation - and in some cases they are - they say we
have saved someone as a result of using intrusive treatment.
When Cameron was using electroshock, there were no limits on its use and it was a much higher voltage
- in some cases 3 times highers than the ones they use now. He was using 150 ECT treatments. He had
this unbelievably intrusive experiment basically and he was trying to erase all aspects of the personality.
Now as I recall in Ontario if you use more than six electroshock treatments on a patient, you have to
appeal to a committee within the hospital. I think there is someone from outside the hospital on each
committee. On the one hand the psychiatric profession has kind of publicly suggested they don't use it
very much and that is intrusive, a kind of medieval thing. On the other hand, quietly, inside the
profession, there is support for it. The danger here again is 'what are they doing? why does it work?' It
was invented forty years ago and there is still no reason for why it works.
Wayne Morris:
To me it seems like the reason why it works is that is a very blunt tool - and that it does cause brain
damage. The reason why it so-called 'works' is because it just makes people forget their pain and
whatever they are going through, and numbs them out to reality as a whole. Whether that is called
successful treatment is questionable in my mind. I can see in the more severe cases that ECT has saved
lives, but my contention is that it is being grossly over-used currently for people who should not have
this treatment, and it should only be used as a last resort. They are using it as a first resort now and that's
my objection to ECT. The same thing could be said for psychiatric drugs as well. They are being over-
used. As soon as they admit somebody, they are often immediately injected with a neuroleptic drug
which are dangerous in themselves.
Don Gillmor:
It think it's true that drugs are being over-used and probably ECT is as well. In a way we are reverting to
some degree back to what we came from, which is essentially what you had in the fifties were these
huge institutions. At McGill for example, the St. Jean de Dieu Hospital had over 6000 patients and the
Douglas Hospital had 3000. The Douglas Hospital had three psychiatrists on staff to deal with 3000
patients. Essentially they didn't have the resources to treat these people in any meaningful way so all you
did was lock them up and do what you could to keep them from killing themselves. Drugs and ECT are
to some degree crude instruments that free up resources in terms of hospital space and doctors - so you
give these people drugs - send them back out. The cycle of de-institutionalization which also came out
of the Allen, not through Cameron, but other doctors. The nightmare of that is that you are using them in
effect to replace funding for other things. Politically it's not an attractive or sexy hook to say we are
going to spend $55 million on halfway houses and social workers and psychologists to integrate these
people into society. It's much more attractive to say we are going to fund drug research and then we
won't have to deal with any of this stuff - we won't need this kind of infrastructure - we will have a drug
- the magic bullet theory. It was proven wrong thirty years ago, but it is still lingers - if we just found the
right drug, the right combination, we are so close, etc. But you still end up with someone who basically
is asymptomatic - you don't have someone who can function in conversations, who knows how to get a
job. You are still left with those kinds of things. It's a very difficult political sell.
Wayne Morris:
I would like to talk about the actual goals Cameron had, why he was doing these experiments, and
particularly as I focused on the series on the allegations that have come forth from survivors of
government mind control who are alleging that they have been used in experiments involving ECT and
drugs, hypnosis, trauma to cause dissociation, and that aspect of dissociation being an important one in
terms of the intelligence and espionage capabilities they have. Being able to carry out these operations
without any memory of doing them. A lot of the things that Cameron was experimenting with seem to
have been perfected and used and now in operational use by government and military. Of course we
don't have 'hard proof' of this but the existence of these many people, hundreds of people coming forth
with the same allegations from cross the continent and the world in fact, suggests that something is
going on.
We have a caller.
Woman:
(snip) pick them up off the streets and inject them - they are passing legislation now to be much more
adamant about that, and not let people sort of work their way back into society. I think a lot of this may
have to do with political dissidents actually from the point of view of what's been happening with the
real right wing agenda in North America and particularly in this province. They may feel that a lot of the
people who are involved such as the poor who are involved with OCAP and various other situations -
may be in a kind of in-between, no-man's land, where hey we can put a lot of these dissidents under the
boot if we want to, if we actually use this method. When you think that John Hinkley was George Bush's
next-door neighbour's son who tried to kill Regan - I mean it gets all very X-Files when you think about
what can be done if you want to use people for certain specific reasons.
Also on your show you mentioned at one point that Ewen Cameron was protected by Mila Mulroney's
father in some kind of court room situation or something or other - that he had something to do with the
protection of Cameron. I would like to know who her father was and what his connection was in terms
of the overall connection with George Bush and Brian Mulroney sitting on Peter Monk's Board of CEO's
and the connection there - and the political connection where these people are involved in power plays
and how now we are getting legislation which is coming down harder on people who are suspected as
being "borderline psychiatric cases" so they can actually force drugs on them. I just see a real political
agenda going on here.
Wayne Morris:
Absolutely. This "involuntary outpatient committal" is totally uncalled-for - forcing these harmful drugs
on people who have a history of being psychiatric "consumers". Mila Mulroney's father is Dr. Pivnicki
at the Allen Memorial who is a prominent psychiatrist - I don't have many details about his cover-up. I
think Don Weitz has covered that more on Shrink-Rap.
Don Gillmor:
He is a doctor at the Allen Memorial and he would have been a relatively young doctor when Cameron
was running things. He was in a fairly junior position. The connection has been I think to some degree
blown out of proportion because Cameron's work was relatively secluded in the sense that there was a
handful of people he had more or less hand-picked to work on his specific area of research. Pivnicki
wasn't one of them from the documents. Cameron's research was fairly well known, it wasn't secretive.
Pivnicki was simply there at the same time. Now I suspect he may have had - I don't know if he was
sympathetic to Cameron - but he certainly would have wanted to put Cameron's work into a larger
psychiatric perspective and try to avoid the political connection. I think that in effect where Pivnicki
stood.
Woman:
The U.S. has a sort of nasty history of sub-contracting out their nasty bits and pieces of CIA movements
in other countries. Canada being forced to more or less come in on the Iraqi bombing and things like that
- when in fact most Canadians don't want to have blood on their hands and why should we? Luring us
into these situations so we are partners in crime at a certain level - makes you wonder about Britain
always, always kowtowing to the US no matter what is going on. Is it a matter of the tail wagging the
dog - and we are really having to look deeper in the subterranean depths - who did what to who at an
international level. Why are we coming up with policies that generally are globally having more of a
right wing oppressive way of negating millions of lives - either through economic genocide or some
other form of pressure.
I just find that psychiatry and other tools like that are being used with specific intentions and you don't
have to be a paranoid 'nut' to see these things. They are cropping up everywhere. I think with the net -
there is a lot of panic among the right wing because too much information is escaping and therefore you
are getting a speed-up in a lot of areas because they are wanting to overtake things before those things
overtake them. I just would say, get more information out - because that's the only way. Right now, they
are like coming in with the draggers, in terms of small fishing boats which used to be able to keep the
public in a state of ignorance and ioppress them. Now they are starting to get out the huge draggers so
that people are not going to be informed. Alternative radio stations and people who have the information
- in terms of your show - have got to keep getting the information out because they are running scared
with the worldwide net because more and more information is escaping, thank God. That's all I have to
say.
Wayne Morris:
Thank you for your comments. I think you have raised some interesting points about the political
coercion that goes on, for example the second attack on Iraq. I think that coercion happens at a lot of
different levels. It seems like they are not as concerned as in the past of coercing the public's opinion -
particularly in Ontario - they just ignore the public's opinion. The coercion seems to be happening at the
higher political levels in terms of their desire to implement whatever the issue is. One thing that has been
raised in this series is the use of mind control for political coercion and I think that is an area that really
needs to be investigated. What kind of government, democracy, are we living in when all of our
politicians and officials have the ability to be manipulated in this way, being blackmailed by using these
mind control victims from whom we have heard allegations?
Don Weitz (caller):
Someone made a statement about shock which is wrong - that some people stop being suicidal after
ECT. I have reviewed a great deal of the literature and Dr. Peter Breggin has a book, "Brain Disabling
TTreatments in Psychiatry". There is not one shred of evidence that ECT has prevented or can prevent
anyone from commiting suicide. It always damages the brain, it disables the mind and it should be
abolished. Dr. Breggin is one of the very few doctors in the Western world who has called for the
abolition of ECT. It always disables the brain - there is nothing good to be said about this treatment. It's
a lie when they say they don't know how it works - they know very well how it works - it always to
disable the brain. The inventor of electric shock, Ugo Cerletti an Italian who invented ECT after seeing
how electricity stunned pigs on the way to the slaughterhouse - he decided to use it on "unwilling"
schizophrenic patients. It subdues the patient. When you think that the brain only needs 1/1000 of a
millivolt to survive or to live - they are dumping now as much as 175-200 volts of electricity into the
human brain. That's a hell of a lot more than what comes out of your electrical socket at home. So, no.
One doesn't need a doctor to know that this is really an abomination, and it's a crime against humanity,
and it should be stopped. I have been trying to say that on CKLN more than once. What is particularly
upsetting now is that the escalating use of ECT in North America is targeting elderly women, and I have
statistics that show that 70% of the women who get electric shock are over 65 in Ontario. The same
thing is happening in the US and no one is speaking out.
ECT has always been a mind control weapon, but what a lot of people have to realize is that it subdues,
pacifies in a brutal way. People come out with huge chunks of memory loss. To this day, the Canadian
Psychiatric Association as you know, has never apologize to the victims of Cameron's brainwashing
experiments. The CPA has never done that - in fact they obstructed the miniscule amount of awards that
were given to the survivors of Cameron. The CPA have consistently lied to the public and the victims by
saying that your memory will be as good as ever. People permanently lose huge chunks of memory -
Wendy Funk in Vancouver is still trying to get her case in court. She has lost 30 years of her life after
undergoing 40+ electric shocks in Alberta in the 80's. She has no memory of growing up. Please. Do not
say electric shock can prevent suicide. Absolutely not.
Wayne Morris:
It seems to me that these methods of psychiatric treatment such as electro shock and the harmful drugs,
seem to be a bandaid, quick-fix solution where really the more traditional psychotherapy in terms of
talking with the people who are needing help, talking through their problems, creating more
opportunities in their lives. I think a lot of so-called mental illnesses actually have roots in social
problems to a great degree.
Don Gillmor:
Electric shock is a very crude instrument and anyone can use it. The drugs are much more sophisticated
and the people who prescribe them don't really understand them that well. Whereas forty years ago it
was the clinicians who were experimenting with them. They were experimenting on the people they
were treating and they had a firsthand account of what was happening to those people. The drugs have
become so sophisticated they are essentially a separate science. You have the neurosciences over here,
and psychiatrists somewhere else. In fact there is almost no common language now. Drugs are coming
out on a monthly basis and to keep up with the literature is simply impossible. Doctors are taking short-
cuts, they are not understanding the side effects, over-prescribing.
But you had people misusing them and overusing them, and simply not understanding them. The people
who are describing them don't have any kind of real great understanding of how these things work.
Wayne Morris:
I guess it is my concern that psychiatry as a whole has moved towards just offering drugs as a solution,
instead of investigating other ways to help people. These drugs in themselves can have a very damaging
effect on the body and brain. I believe we have another caller.
Male Caller:
I have been following this mind control series from the beginning, and find that the evidence from the
survivors, and therapists and research experts is solid proof of the existence of ritual abuse and mind
control - it has gone on, and it is still going on. Yet when the CBC aired the mini-series, In The Sleep
Room, they advertised a comedy about dysfunctional families during that segment, in that time slot -
they made a comical comment about it, which I found very distasteful - and the drama about Ewen
Cameron was not accurate. Also on a phone-in TV show, Jane Hawtin Live, she had a couple of doctors
from Mt. Sinai talking about cloning and how it could be beneficial. One of the doctors made a joke
about multiplicity - it seems that some of the information is getting out and some of the professionals are
not taking it seriously.
I also heard a radio commercial which poked fun at someone who had multiple personalities and how
she had to go for therapy before she could have any serious relationship. It seems that the CKLN series
has reached a lot of people, but mainstream commercial culture is making a big joke about it. Do you
think we will have a culture that will be bent on having a split belief system, where they make fun of
schizophrenia in that manner, where money and drugs dominate one belief system -- and true values and
therapy for MPD will be an underground belief?
Wayne Morris:
I think that's what we are seeing today. Certainly in all of the information that is coming, there is going
to be backlash and that certainly has been happening with organizations such as the False Memory
Syndrome Foundation trying to discredit any valid accounts coming forward. In terms of the media, I
think you are absolutely right. They are not taking this seriously, they haven't taken this seriously. It's
something that should have been addressed by the professional media years ago and they have failed to
do so. They still refuse - with very few exceptions - to look at the evidence. We have to ask the question:
what are the power relationships there, between the media and the people who are actually performing
these experiments in the government. Thank you for your comments.
Female Caller:
Thanks a lot for this series. It has really meant a lot to me to listen to it. I'm a counsellor and I mostly
work with women over the last 25 years. One thing I would like to point out that makes me very nervous
is the idea of the Clarke Institute for Psychiatry merging with the Addiction Research Foundation - the
neanderthals at the Clarke must be rubbing their hands together just at the thought of getting a hold of
drug users. It makes me very nervous as to what they may do insofar as continuing the electroshock
experimentation.
The other thing is one of the things I find, just in my experience, I will speak strictly from my
experiences - there seem to be quite a few parallels with women - post partum depression - this is
usually a time when a lot of women have discovered (after the birth of their first child) that they were
sexually abused themselves and there is a real strong tie-in with post partum depression and previous
sexual abuse in the new mother. One thing that makes me nervous for these women especially - because
they have been used a lot in the system for drug experimentation, electroshock - just because they are
depressed. It's a lot easier for the medical establishment to drug up patients rather than to listen to them
and work with them. It is hard work. Getting to the bottom of some of these issues doesn't seem to be a
priority - the priority seems to be "how can we get funded by a big pharmaceutical so we can pump up
the victim further to make sure they don't have clarity of thought?"
I know of only two cases in the last thirty years that I have dealt with personally where electroshock had
any benefit whatsoever. I just want to say that.
Don Gillmor:
In the case of Ewen Cameron - that's a good point - because women tended to make up a
disproportionate number of the patients in that institituion. Part of the problem was that when you had
women with post partum depression or women with post menopausal depression who were coming in -
maybe we are retreating to this now - there was little discrimination between the groups then. So at the
Allen Memorial you had alcoholics, post partum depression, schizophrenics, major psychotics. And they
were all getting essentially the same treatment at least under Cameron's care. You had people getting
very intrusive treatments who didn't have any kind of symptoms that would warrant that kind of invasive
treatment.
Female Caller:
Sure. Part of it is that when a woman goes through post partum depression a lot of it is total withdrawal
because her anger at previous sexual abuse is just so profound - the only way she can deal with it is to
withdraw. Most of these doctors have been men - I hate to say that - it's nothing personal - but when you
think about it, they couldn't perceive and deal with an angry woman - so of course she had to be crazy so
let's drug her up and shock her up. That's not her role. She's supposed to be more compliant than that.
How dare she be angry? We were set up - and so many are - still today. There should be real serious
thought given to merging places like the Clarke with the ARF - every person that uses drugs - whether
they are prescription, recreational, whatever - are going to be pathologized through this. These kinds of
things make me really nervous.
Wayne Morris:
You are absolutely right, and it seems that psychiatry is dominated by the patriarchy. It seems to be
another manifestation of that. The whole approach of psychiatry - in terms of being very judgmental and
not being open. I think that's why we are at the place where we are in terms of a quick fix solution with
drugs, or shock them. I think if we had more women in psychiatry hopefully the situation wouldn't be as
bad as it now. I would like to reinforce Don Weitz's sentiments about working towards the abolishment
of psychiatry, because I think they are just barking up the wrong tree.
Female Caller:
I agree. Another thing I would like to mention in terms of my experience with women who have had
post partum depression is that number one - it brings up memories of their own sexual abuse; and
number two - we forget nutrition in a lot of this. In the fifties and sixties when Cameron was in his
heyday, we were all being bombarded by the advertising telling us how great fast foods and crap like
that was. Consequently we forgot to eat right, and when we don't eat right and we don't have proper
nutrition, our brain doesn't work as well. We get confused, we get dehydrated. How many people drink a
bottle of water a day? It's not much different today. These things are very significant - if you start to ask
somebody about their eating patterns, you find that they don't have any vitamins and minerals in their
systems. They eat totally processed food.
Wayne Morris:
That's a very important point. And you have raised a significant point in terms of sexual abuse and post
partum depression. I hadn't heard that before - and I think that's quite intriguing.
Don Weitz:
I am glad you are calling for abolition of electroshock. A bunch of us, survivors, here and in the United
States - there are about sixty groups around the world who are calling for the end of involuntary
psychiatry, which certainly includes electroshock. Electroshock as a primary brainwashing weapon was
always used, and still is used, against people's will. There is no such thing as giving "informed consent"
for ECT - in order to give consent, you have to be informed, and people are being lied to by these shock
doctors. They are not told about permanent memory loss; they are not told about brain damage; they are
not told about the permanent problems with concentration. I just wanted to make it clear that when
Cameron and others whom he trained, and who are now heads of psychiatry across Canada use
electroshock - they are assaulting you - they are assaulting the brain. In the case of women, I call it
psychiatric rape, and it is disheartening that more groups among the elderly and women are not speaking
out as much as they might against electroshock - because it is targeting the elderly and women.
You might have mentioned Wayne - about the problems in the media. The latest Toronto Star series -
from January 10 to the 16 - was a disgusting, demonizing series. If people weren't stigmatized before the
Star series. It makes everybody who has a psychiatric history - or who might come under the gun of a
psychiatrist - a criminal. It promoted the myth of the "dangerous mental patient". This is the kind of
media indoctrination that is really dangerous, and has to be resisted. I think they are laying the
groundwork for forced drugging in the community for outpatient committal - which I have to say is
unfortunately coming to Ontario and other provinces unless we resist. It is a form of fascism. Psychiatric
fascsim. I urge people to sue any doctor who gives them treatment against their will. And to not buy or
subscribe to the Toronto Star until it publishes articles written by psychiatric survivors, and stop pushing
the medical model of mental illness.
Wayne Morris:
We have heard allegations from survivors of government mind control who talk about the use of
electricity and electroshock within their control. It is an extremely coercive method of controlling
somebody. Electroshock seems to be unbelievably painful and has been used as an instrument of torture
in traumatizing these people and contribute to the induction of dissociation or multiple personalities for
the purpose of mind control. That this instrument of torture and trauma is used as a method of treatment
is quite ironic.
Don Gillmor:
In a way to some degree, there has to be discrimination between the literal concepts - mind control and
brainwashing. Brainwashing from the literal perspective - 100 electroshocks, chemical means, isolation,
whatever - that term is apt and you end up reducing the brain. In the case of ECT people had lost their
ability for language. They were regressed right back to almost an infancy - erasing their learned
behaviour. It would gradually come back in bits and pieces, leaving out all kinds of things. When you go
into the mind control aspect - in the case of Cameron's work, where he had great success in
brainwashing but literally no success - a spectacular lack of success in mind control. You would have all
these ECT treatments - give a repeated message on a tape loop half a million times, repeated for months.
At the end of that period, they couldn't repeat that message. After hearing it for half a million times, the
brain would resist to such a degree. The brain is very complex. You could reduce it, but you couldn't
build it back up again and that was the problem with Cameron, and that was the reason the CIA quit
their funding. He had been writing papers saying he had 100% success rate, in fact his success rate was
approaching zero. When they looked at the work firsthand, they realized there was nothing there for
them [CIA] - the patients were incapable of doing anything. He had reduced them to almost a vegetative
state, incapable of functioning. Brainwashing and mind control are, in effect, two separate ideas.
Male Caller (Terry Parker):
I wonder if people in this city, province, country are aware of the fact that children who are subject to
epilepsy are being used for psychosurgical experimentation consisting of brain tissue removal showing
no pathology - including the trespass of U-shaped metallic implants - does this have any role to play in
the research of mind control?
Wayne Morris:
In our interview with Dr. Colin Ross at the start of the series, he did speak of how epilepsy patients have
been systematically used by the mind control doctors. There is going to be more information about that
in his upcoming book. Hopefully we will have some good documentation around that. I don't have too
many other details about epilepsy patients being used for mind control, but it's something that definitely
be looked into.
Terry Parker:
Does Mr. Gillmor have any kind of understanding about the issue of psychosurgery - psychiatric brain
mutilation, removal of brain tissue?
Don Gillmor:
No, not in the context you are talking of. The only context I have any familiarity with is with Cameron's
work which involved some of those elements, but he was operating at a very crude level. Incredibly poor
scientist, among other things.
Terry Parker:
I have been told by the Inspector for Complaints of the Ontario College of Physicians and Surgeons that
I am a victim of a criminal code offence, the College has no jurisdiction to initiate a criminal
investigation against its members, go to the police. I go to the Toronto Police 52 Division, and they are
telling me, go back to the College. I go to the Federal government, they pass it off to the Provincial
government, they pass it to the College, the College passes it on to the Police and it's a complete
rigamorol. It really concerns me that we have doctors today who are obtaining consent by false pretence
- they get the parent(s) to give an inch, and they take a mile and a half. It's a damn shame that children
with epilepsy in this country are not being allowed to have full informed consent when it comes to brain
mutilation for psychiatric research. I myself am very alarmed looking at 43 implants in the right
temporal lobe of yours truly's brain - and I wonder if I am not a Manchurian Candidate - or better yet a
marijuana candidate. We have no accountability from the doctors, and the media sits on the boards of
directors of Toronto Sick Children's Hospital and they will not address it and yet they take great joy in
covering it up. It's quite sickening.
Wayne Morris:
Thanks for your comments Terry. That's definitely something we are going to be investigating in the
next radio series. I might as well make an announcement now. We are going to be starting an
investigative series into the history and development of brain implants and electronic weaponry -
directed energy weapons - due to start this summer on this show.
We should also address other things people can do to stop or call for an investigation into the mind
control experiments. There is an ongoing campaign right now to call for a Presidential Hearing like the
Radiation Hearings - into the mind control experiments on children and that is being spearheaded here in
Canada by Lynne Moss-Sharman in Thunder Bay, and ACHES-MC, the Advocacy Committee for
Human Experimentation Survivors - Mind Control. There is an active campaign right now for this and if
the public wants to lends its support, you can write to the Canadian, USA or International contacts for
ACHES-MC to support the demand for a Presidential Hearing to declassify and release the documents
regarding mind control. The numbers to call are Canada 1-807-622-5407 Lynne Moss-Sharman
(lsharman@microage-tb.com); U.S.A. Patty Rehn 1-541-388-5068 (aches@bendnet.com); International
Blanche Chavoustie PO Box 108, Syosset, N.Y. 11791 (c4ixxx@aol.com). Both Prime Minister
Chretien and Foreign Affairs Minister Lloyd Axworthy have responded to a request for an investigation,
but the Canadian government has not acted concretely on behalf of survivors.
Don, in your investigation into Cameron, did you encounter much obstruction in terms of getting
government documentation, particularly from the USA? Did you make the attempt to try and get CIA
documents?
Don Gillmor:
I tried to get the documentation from the States and what had been released initially - the first round of
original documents - which everyone had used - John Marks, etc. It wasn't really possible unless you
embarked on a very expensive legal battle which is difficult to do financially, and to marshal it from
here because you have to go through a Washington lawyer. It was more accessible to try and get
documents from the Allen Memorial - not an easy thing either - but at least you can get some documents
from there. Ultimately though the best record of this ends up being somewhat anecdotal - from doctors
who were there and had differing perspectives back then - what you need is someone who felt that
Cameron's work was unethical - even in the context of the times. This was always a big issue, people
saying, 'well given the context of the times it wasn't all that intrusive' and there were people at the time
who felt it was, in fact, unethical, and that ends up being the most valuable source. I would suspect in
the case of ongoing battles of a like-minded nature, those are the key ingredients, to find people who
were near these kinds of things but disapproved for various reasons. That's going to be a very difficult
thing to find, but if they are found, if people do come forward, that will be of value.
Male Caller:
I am a survivor of total mind control - I am 27 years old - I came to this country nine years ago - I have a
real scare for things that are going on around me - when I see this kind of political economy - especially
in this province (Ontario). I was being segregated in a ghetto from my own people because they had a
plan to just to exploit me. After I was segregated I was forced to live in a rooming house and there was a
kind of a gas sprayed through my door and there was like a sophisticated way - they used a heater - they
made a little hole from downstairs - I used to live on the second floor - and they sprayed the gas. That is
supposed to be against the law - but there wasn't a law in terms of my research from 1996. I have
received the law books. The Canadian Law. The Criminal Code especially - before February 1996 you
cannot find any information about LSD - but now it has been covered up in the way to confuse the
readers - the people who are musicians or something - the people - there are two kinds of LSD - one is a
D type and one is the surgical type.
Wayne Morris:
And I think a lot of the focus has been put on LSD drug testing when in fact they have tested hundreds
of drugs from my understanding, trying to have some effect on what they want to do. A lot of these are
drugs that will induce hypnosis or induce trance states, a lot of other drugs are used for coercion. I don't
think LSD is the only one they have been testing - there have been hundreds of them. Dangerous drugs
such as scopalomine have been used.
Male Caller:
I don't have to see other people to see my results. That's only me. From my own feedback to those
people - their expectation was just my feedback - my response them. I am really glad just to hear your
own program - it did help me for my own research. I have a friend that I lost, you know, he was killed
here. Actually I am from Ethiopia. It's very hard. I lost nine years, my young age here, really. I was
supposed to do some other things. I did have a university education for my background - I was supposed
to do my university education here, I was supposed to work hard, I was supposed to help my family, but
now I am being turned down, you see. Some kind of mental shit. Thanks so much.
Wayne Morris:
Thank you for your comments, and I wish you the best of luck in trying to get what's going on with you
exposed, and understood by yourself, and hopefully get some justice.
I think we have just about run out of time, and we will wrap it up. I would like to thank all of the people
who have phoned in and contributed to this show. I would like to thank Don Gillmor for coming in to
participate. Thanks go to Darren for teching and to Min Suk who was our tech last week - I forgot to say
that last week.
Thank you all for your support in doing this radio series. It has been quite a journey for me. I didn't
know it was going to last this long. Definitely the issues are very important to a lot of people, and I
thank you for your support. You have been listening to CKLN. That's it. Thank you for listening. Stay
tuned next week. It's International Women's Day on CKLN.



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