electricpete (Electrical) 3 Mar 10 12:51

Never mind - that's exactly what y! said"

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En$-tips %r!ms: &he 'est place n the we' %r en$ineerin$ disc!ssins"
s!nny(1 (Electrical) 3 Mar 10 13:3)
&han*s everyne+ $reat in%rmatin"
Nw+ w!ld it 'e sa%e t ass!me %r my pr,mechanica analysis %r a symmetrical 3phase %a!lt+
that the 'race w!ld 'e seein$ a %rce % say 1000l's n - and 1000l's n . phase $in$ in the
ppsite directins+ ca!se / phase %rces w!ld avera$e !t t 0er"

1$hrist (Electrical) 3 Mar 10 15:0)
Quote:
Nw+ w!ld it 'e sa%e t ass!me %r my pr,mechanica analysis %r a symmetrical 3phase %a!lt+
that the 'race w!ld 'e seein$ a %rce % say 1000l's n - and 1000l's n . phase $in$ in the
ppsite directins+ ca!se / phase %rces w!ld avera$e !t t 0er"
2EEE 3td 405+ IEEE Guide for Design of Substation Rigid-Bus Structures cnsiders pea* %rce
d!rin$ an asymmetrical %a!lt+ nt avera$e d!rin$ a symmetrical %a!lt" &he %rce n the middle
phase d!rin$ a 35 %a!lt is 0"(44 times the %rce n the '!ses d!rin$ a 5-5 %a!lt % the same
ma$nit!de" &he %rce n the !tside phases is 0"(0( times the 5-5 %a!lt %rce"

desert%x (Mechanical) 3 Mar 10 14:1(
6i s!nny(1
2% y! clic* n the lin* 2 $ave y! in my earlier pst+ then clic* n electrma$netic stresses it
will $ive y! %rm!la's %r calc!latin$ the %rces n the '!s'ars %r y!r sit!atin"
desert%x
warss (Electrical) 3 Mar 10 21:22
-nytime d!rin$ the cycle that the c!rrent is 0er in a '!s+ the %rce n that '!s will 'e 0er"
2n practice the %rce n the !ter '!s 'ars will 'e !tward and the center '!s will tend t swin$
'ac* and %rth 'etween them"
/ill
--------------------
78hy nt the 'est97
:immy .arter
1ac*423( (Electrical) 20 Mar 10 12:3)
8ell+ this is a $reat ;!estin and let's start with the %!ndamentals" &he ;!estin is where is the
$reatest %rce depends n the '!s cn%i$!ratin" 3!rely this ma*es sense"
<r example a '!s that is cn%ir!$ed is a hri0ntal plane li*e -/. des nt create the same
%rce as a '!s that has a cn%i$!ratin % an e;!alitratel plane( an e;!al lateral traian$le)" &he
e;!al-lateral trian$le has e;!al %rce n each cnd!ctr (that is the desi$n parameter) wher a
-/. arran$ement has the maxim!m %rce nthe middle cnd!ctr"
3 what is the %rce n cnd!ctrs in the same plane9
6ere are the cnsideratins:
1"=! need t determine the sectin md!l!s % the cnd!ctrs" <r rectan$!lar cnd!ctrs the
sectin md!l!s is 3# '> d?2,4 where d is the width and ' is the hei$ht"(@e%erence Mechanic %
Materials +<airman A .!tshall+ :hn 8iley A 3ns+ pa$e 113"
2"2s the '!s -l!min!m r .pper" &he '!s may have the same sectin md!l!s '!t as y!
*nw+ al!min!m may have a lwer yield stren$th than .pper and this ma*es it a wea*er
system"
3" <r a '!ses in the same plane+ the maxim!m %rce is n the phase / cnd!ctr and this %rce
cc!rs B5 de$rees a%ter the shrt circ!it cc!rs in phase / as the c!rrent passes thr!$h a
c!rrent 0er val!e" -ll the shrt circ!t cc!rrences prd!ce less %rce"
B" &he <rce is $iven 'y:
<(l's,2n?2# 3C'5> 2?2>10?4,(10?C>D) where D distance 'etween the center t center
'!s '!ses)"
4"Ence y! *nw the sectin md!l!s+ the shrt circ!it in symmetrical amps+ the distance
'etween '!ses + y! can easily determine the re;!ired distance 'etween 'racin$ re;!irements"
E'vi!sly this is nt a calc!latin %r r*ies"
:ac*
warss (Electrical) 20 Mar 10 14:B1
Quote:
the maxim!m %rce is n the phase / cnd!ctr and this %rce cc!rs B5 de$rees a%ter the shrt
circ!it cc!rs in phase / as the c!rrent passes thr!$h a c!rrent 0er val!e" -ll the shrt
circ!t cc!rrences prd!ce less %rce"
Maxim!m %rce at 0er c!rrent9
Did 2 read this prperly9
2 th!$ht that the repellin$ %rce was $reatest 'etween ad1acent cnd!ctrs when the c!rrents
were e;!al" &hat is when the s!m % the s;!ares % the c!rrents will 'e $reatest"
/ill
--------------------
78hy nt the 'est97
:immy .arter
desert%x (Mechanical) 20 Mar 10 14:B)
6i warss
N y! read 1ac*s pst crrectly"
E'vi!sly my lin* t shrt circ!it %rces n '!s'ars m!st 'e invisi'le ther than t me"
desert%x
1ac*423( (Electrical) 20 Mar 10 1C:1(
Mr" /ill+

2 sh!ld have 'een mre speci%ic a'!t when the maxim!m %rce cc!rs---and than* y! %r
ntin$ 2 was nt clear n that speci%ic pint" -ct!ally there were several pints which needed
additinal explatin"
.ncernin$ when the maxim!m %rce cc!rs"
&he maxim!m %rce cc!rs when the shrt circ!it cc!rs B5 de$rees a%ter the 0er c!rrent in
Fhase /" &he maxim!m %rce will then cc!rs 1,2 cycle a%ter the instant % the shrt circ!it"
-ny ther cm'inatin % circ!mstances will prd!ce a smaller val!e"
3tanley Gillian+ he was a Develpmet and @esearch En$ineer %r Delta 3tar Electric .mpany
(.hica$)+ descri'es this in $reater detail in 7<rces D!e t 3hrt .irc!it .!rrents7 Electrical
8rld+ Decem'er 12+ 1)B2"
-ls cncernin$ the /racin$ @e;!irements
E%ten+ r smetimes+ the '!s 'ars are nt in the same plane" &hat is they are in a sta$$ered
plane r they cntain 'ends" Nt an easy sl!tin t this" 6ere is what is happenin$" 8hen the
%rces are nt in the same plane+ the %rces ca!ses the '!ses t want t 7twist7 r rtate s the
'!s 'ars will need t resist this mtin" 2 slve this 'y calc!latin$ the 'racin$ distance %r '!ses
in the same plane and addin$ a 'race in the middle % the calc!latin" <r example+ @ather than
12 7 2 w!ld add ne at 4 inches"
-nther item cncernin$ 'racin$"
& really calc!late the 'racin$ distances+ y! need t *nw the exact yield stren$th (F32) % the
'!s 'ar material" Mst calc!latin are %r cpper" -l!min!m ally are nw almst e;!al t the
yield % .pper" &he calc!latins are made %r cpper and then ad1!sted %r -H" <r example
i% the yield stren$th % al!min!m is 4000 F32 and cpper is 15+000 F32+ then the calc!latins
are ad1!sted t I4000,15000J?0"5 #0"433 % the distance %r cpper material" 3 y! calc!late
10 inch 'racin$ %r cpper and %r -l the 'racin$ re;!irement is 10>"433 # 4"33 inches" 2t all
depends n the yield stren$th %r the material !sed in y!r calc!latins"
2 6pe this helps and many than*s t /ill %r as*in$ that ;!estin" 2 was in a h!rry and sh!ld
have ta*en the time t %!lly explain" 3rryK
-ls+ there appears t 'e si$ni%icant interest in this s!'1ect as the ins!rance cmpanies %r
ind!strials as* %r shrt circ!it and %lash ha0ard calc!latins" 2 have helped several slve these
pr'lems and avid a replacement r re'!ild"
&he 'asic en$ineerin$ %r this tpic can 'e %!nd in the wr* 'y ."6" Lan -spen % 6ydr
Electr Fwer .missin % Entari -1)22 and als 6"/ Dwi$ht"
:ac*

3cttyMG (Electrical) 20 Mar 10 1C:2B
desert%x+
2 can see it"
&he cntent % the we' pa$e was nce p!'lished as a hardcver '* 'y the .D- called
'.pper %r /!s'ars'+ and sme % the dia$rams have 'een scanned in which explains the
indi%%erent ;!ality % the ima$es" &he '* is well wrth trac*in$ dwn i% nly %r the ima$es
% cntemprary e;!ipment" My persnal %av!rite is the B0+000- 250L D. circ!it 'rea*er+ as
in B0+000- thermal ratin$+ nt 'rea*in$ capacity" 2t is the si0e % a small tr!c*"

----------------------------------

2% we learn %rm !r mista*es 2'm $ettin$ a $reat ed!catinK

desert%x (Mechanical) 20 Mar 10 1C:5)
6i 3cttyMG
=es 2 have a cpy % that very '* and 2 th!$ht it was still availa'le+ it is well wrth havin$ a
cpy 2 a$ree"
6ere's a ;!te n the max %rce's d!e t a sin$le phase and three phase %a!lt:-
Maxim!m stresses
8hen a '!s'ar system is r!nnin$ nrmally the interphase %rces are nrmally very small with
the static wei$ht % the '!s'ars 'ein$ the dminant cmpnent" Mnder shrt-circ!it cnditins
this is very %ten nt the case as the c!rrent rises t a pea* % sme thirty times its nrmal val!e+
%allin$ a%ter a %ew cycles t ten times its initial val!e" &hese hi$h transitry c!rrents create lar$e
mechanical %rces nt nly in the '!s'ars themselves '!t als in their s!pprtin$ system" &his
means that the s!pprt ins!latrs and their assciated steelwr* m!st 'e desi$ned t withstand
these hi$h lads as well as their nrmal str!ct!ral re;!irements s!ch as wind+ ice+ seismic and
static lads"
&he pea* r %!lly asymmetrical shrt circ!it c!rrent is dependent n the pwer %actr (cs %) %
the '!s'ar system and its assciated cnnected electrical plant" &he val!e is 'tained 'y
m!ltiplyin$ the r"m"s" symmetrical c!rrent 'y the apprpriate %actr $iven in /alanced three-
phase shrt-circ!it stresses"
2% the pwer %actr % the system is nt *nwn then a %actr % 2"55 will nrmally 'e clse t the
act!al system val!e especially where $eneratin is cncerned" Nte that the theretical
maxim!m %r this %actr is 2N2 r 2"(2( where cs % # 0" &hese pea* val!es red!ce
expnentially and a%ter apprximately 10 cycles the %actr %alls t 1"0+ i"e"+ the symmetrical
r"m"s" shrt circ!it c!rrent" &he pea* %rces there%re nrmally cc!r in the %irst tw cycles
(0"0B s) as shwn in <i$!re 13"
2n the case % a cmpletely asymmetrical c!rrent wave+ the %rces will 'e applied with a
%re;!ency e;!al t that % the s!pply %re;!ency and with a d!'le %re;!ency as the wave
'ecmes symmetrical" &here%re in the case % a 50 60 s!pply these %rces have %re;!encies %
50 r 100 60"
&he maxim!m stresses t which a '!s str!ct!re is li*ely t 'e s!'1ected w!ld cc!r d!rin$ a
shrt-circ!it n a sin$le-phase '!s'ar system in which the line shrt-circ!it c!rrents are
displaced 'y 1(0O"
2n a three-phase system a shrt-circ!it 'etween tw phases is almst identical t the sin$le-
phase case and alth!$h the phase c!rrents are nrmally displaced 'y 120O+ !nder shrt-circ!it
cnditins the phase c!rrents % the tw phases are almst 1(0O !t % phase" &he e%%ect % the
third phase can 'e ne$lected"
2n a 'alanced three-phase shrt-circ!it+ the res!ltant %rces n any ne % the three phases is less
than in the sin$le-phase case and is dependent n the relative physical psitins % the three
phases"
2n the case % a sin$le-phase shrt-circ!it+ the %rces prd!ced are !nidirectinal and are
there%re mre severe than thse d!e t a three-phase shrt-circ!it+ which alternate in directin"
&he shrt-circ!it %rces have t 'e a'sr'ed %irst 'y the cnd!ctr" &he cnd!ctr there%re
m!st have an ade;!ate pr% stren$th t carry these %rces with!t permanent distrtin"
.pper satis%ies this re;!irement as it has hi$h stren$th cmpared with ther cnd!ctr
materials (&a'le 2)" /eca!se % the hi$h stren$th % cpper+ the ins!latrs can 'e mre widely
spaced than is pssi'le with lwer-
&hienma (Electrical) 1B May 0) ):2)
6i -ll+
2'm a 'it p!00lin$ 'y the Pamma <actr % 1+ "(44+ and "(0( listed n &a'le 2 % the 2EEE
standard as ad1!stment %actrs %r the '!s %rce depend n the type % %a!lt and cnd!ctr
lcatin" 2'm see*in$ advice n:
1) 2% y! have any re%erence r dc!ment shwin$ hw these %actrs were derived"
2) .an these %actrs 'e !sed t calc!late the act!al '!s 'ar %a!lt c!rrent withstand capa'ility
(i"e" M!ltiply the Pamma %actr t the asymmetrical c!rrent)999
2'm very m!ch cn%!sed 'y this and any advice is $reatly appreciated" &han* y! %r y!r time"
desert%x (Mechanical) 1B May 0) ):3C
6i &hiena
&his site mi$ht help:-
http:,,www"cpperin%"c"!*,'!s'ars,p!'22-cpper-%r-'!s'ars,sec4"htmQElectrma$netic
R203tresses
desert%x
&hienma (Electrical) 1B May 0) 10:30
&han*s desert%x+
2 have seen that dc!ment in the past+ '!t nt ;!ite s!re hw did they cme !p with the "(44 r "
(0( %actrs" -ls+ hw can these %actrs 'e applied t calc!late+ electrically+ the maxim!m
%a!lt c!rrent that the '!s sh!ld 'e a'le t withstand" 2% 2 were t 'tain the asymmetrical
c!rrent % the '!s !sin$ the S,@ rati at 1,2 cycle pea* %llwin$ %a!lt+ can 2 m!ltiply this
asymmetrical c!rrent with the decrement %actr % "(44 t $et the maxim!m %a!lt c!rrent that
the '!s m!st withstand99 2 was tal*in$ with smene wh prpsed s!ch+ '!t 2 dn't *nw
hw valid it is and 'een l*in$ %r sme srt % dis-pr% r cn%irmatin"
1$hrist (Electrical) 1B May 0) 10:3C
&he 1+ 0"(44+ and 0"(0( %actrs are derived %rm calc!latin$ the pea* %rces !sin$
di%%erentiatin % the net sin!sidal %rces n the '!s'ars %r the di%%erent %a!lts" 2 dn't have
any re%erences %r the derivatin+ '!t 2 have dne the calc!latins mysel% t cn%irm that the
%actrs are crrect"

desert%x (Mechanical) 1B May 0) 10:B(
hi &hienma
=es it desn't say were the %actrs came %rm 2 ass!med it was lin*ed t the asymmetry % the
%a!lt c!rrent"
Nt s!re why y! want the '!s'ar %a!lt c!rrent withstand+ 2 ass!me that the withstand c!rrent
w!ld 'e determined 'y the temperat!re rise r hw ;!ic* the heat can 'e dissapated %rm the
'!s'ar and als the stresses set !p 'etween ad1acent '!s'ars d!rin$ a %a!lt"
<rm my experience the %a!lt ratin$s %r '!s'ars is either ne r three secnds i% d!rin$ that
time the temperat!re desn't $et t hi$h and the mechanical stresses are excepta'le ie:- they are
nt permanently de%lected then the system sh!ld 'e *ay"
2% y! $ t the index n the lin* 2 prvided in the previ!s pst there are sectins n the
c!rrent ratin$s % '!s'ars"
http:,,www"cpperin%"c"!*,'!s'ars,p!'22-cpper-%r-'!s'ars,sec3"htm
desert%x
&hienma (Electrical) 1B May 0) 11:0)
Desert%x+
&he reasn why i was l*in$ %r the shrt-circ!it withstand capa'ility is that we have ne %
the '!ses in !r system which cmes pretty clse t the desi$ned electrical c!rrent ratin$+ and 2
was nt certain i% the same ratin$ is ade;!ate $iven the present cn%i$!ratin" &hr!$h tal*in$
with a %ellw en$ineer+ he s!$$ested that the "(44 %actr can 'e !sed t derate the ttal %a!lt
c!rrent impactin$ the '!s+ and i'm d a little s!l searchin$ t see i% indeed his s!$$estin is
valid and i% the same apprach was 'ein$ !sed elsewhere"
desert%x (Mechanical) 1B May 0) 11:B3
6i &hienma
2n that case 2 w!ld !se the %rm!la %r:- 3hrt .irc!it 6eatin$ % /ars in the secnd lin* 2
psted earlier"
&he time t calc!lated %rm this m!st 'e $reater than the shrt circ!it time ratin$ %r the system"
desert%x
1$hrist (Electrical) 1B May 0) 1C:31
&he 0"(44 is applica'le nly %r the shrt circ!it %rce calc!latin+ nt %r the thermal ratin$" 2t
has t d with the %act that the c!rrents in ad1acent '!ses d!rin$ a 35 %a!lt are nt 1(0O !t %
phase li*e they are d!rin$ a 5-5 %a!lt"

patric*C)41 (Electrical) 15 May 0) 10:01
&he reasn why i was l*in$ %r the shrt-circ!it withstand capa'ility is that we have ne %
the '!ses in !r system which cmes pretty clse t the desi$ned electrical c!rrent ratin$+ and 2
was nt certain i% the same ratin$ is ade;!ate $iven the present cn%i$!ratin"
2in rder t 'e ass!red that the '!s in ;!estin is in cmplience with 405 y! need t l* at the
cntin!s c!rrent ratin$+ the shrt c*t ratin$+ chec* that the '!s vlta$e $radient and thermal
expansin are *"
=! will need t calc!late the ttal vectrial %rce n the '!s+ then y! can chec* the max span
'ased n '!s stren$th+ '!s de%lectin+ and ins!latr stren$th" =! will als have t *nw what
ladin$ district y! are in li$ht+ medi!m+ heavy" =! als need t *nw what type % vi'ratin
dampers are installed"
y! can chec* the %a!lt c!rrent 'y
2#.>10?4>->Il$T(&%-20UG,P),(&i-20UG,P)V,tJ?"5