10-16 UBC Hearing PG 1-200

CERTifiED TRINSCRIPT 414
2 -----------------------------------x
3 In the Matter of
4 UNITED BROTHERHOOD OF CARPENTERS
5 AND JOINERS OF AMERICA
6 -----------------------------------x
7 SPECIAL HEARING ON THE NEW YORK
8 CITY & VICINITY DISTRICT Council
9 OF CARPENTERS
10
11 Javits Convention Center
655 West 34th Street
12 New York, New York

13 October 16, 2009
8:30 a.m.
14
15 B E FOR E:
16 MICHAEL V. DRAPER, Chairman
17 ROBERT YEGGY, UBC Representative

18 C. "DANNY" MAPLES, UBC Representative
19
20
21
22
23
24
25 David Levy, CSR, Hearing Reporter
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2 PRO C E E DIN G S
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Can we turn the mics
4 on? Everybody come in, take your seat,
5 we'll get the hearing started. Court
6 reporter ready?
7 Good morning, Brothers and Sisters.
8 This is a hearing to determine if
9 supervision by the United Brotherhood of
10 Carpenters over the New York City District
11 Council of Carpenters should continue, and
12 it's being held under the Constitution and
13 laws of the United Brotherhood. All of
14 you received a notice from the General
15 President, a letter to Frank Spencer from
16 the General President stating the reason
17 for having this hearing.
18 I'd like to introduce the hearing
19 panel. Over to my left is Bob Yeggy. Bob
20 is the District Vice-President from the
21 Midwest District. To my right is Charles
22 Danny Maples. He's the District
23 Vice-President from the Southern District.
24 My name is Michael Draper. I'm the
25 Vice-President of the Western District,

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1 Proceedings
2 and I'll be chairing this hearing. Are
3 all folks in this room members of the
4 organization?
5 As the General President's letter
6 indicated, if you received it, this is a
7 hearing. It's not a trial or a
8 prosecution. We are an investigating
9 committee appointed by the General
10 President to make findings and
11 recommendations under 6D and 10H of the
12 UBC Constitution. We will do our best to
13 afford ample opportunity to everyone who
14 wishes to testify or submit evidence to
15 this committee. We need your full
16 cooperation to make sure this hearing is
17 conducted in an orderly manner.
18 There are a few simple rules and
19 procedures that we need to follow. All
20 those who wish to testify in front of this
21 committee, please let us know by
22 indicating that desire when signing your
23 name on the attendance sheet. At present,
24 i t is our intention to take testimony only
25 from members of the Local Unions

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1 Proceedings
2 affiliated with this Council. Other
3 members of the United Brotherhood may
4 attend this hearing but not testify.
5 The committee may also exercise its
6 discretion and allow testimony from
7 non-member witnesses if the committee
8 determines that they have information
9 relevant to the proceeding.
10 Testimony from witness will be under
11 oath. All testimony will be recorded by
12 the court reporter who is sitting right
13 down here. Time limits may be imposed at
14 the discretion of the chair. Each witness
15 should state his or her name and Local
16 Union number for the record. Please speak
17 clearly and directly so that we can follow
18 the testimony and the court reporter can
19 get everything down.
20 I respectfully ask all those in
21 attendance that we be permitted to conduct
22 a fair and orderly hearing. There will be
23 no crossfire or questions from the floor.
24 Witnesses will state in their own manner
25 their testimony for consideration of this

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1 Proceedings
2 committee. Then the committee, in its
3 discretion; may have questions for
4 witnesses. We will keep order and move
5 the hearing along as needed.
6 And I repeat, there will be no
7 disruptions in this meeting by members of
8 the audience. Each of you will have your
9 proper turn. The official court reporter
10 is capable of taking everything down.
11 There will be one and only one official
12 record of this hearing. Therefore, no
13 personal tape recorders or other recording
14 devices are allowed in this room.
15 This session this morning will go
16 from 8:30 'till 11:30 unless we have
17 concluded with all the witnesses who wish
18 to testify. There will be one more
19 session that will begin at one p.m. this
20 afternoon, and conclude at 4:30, or until
21 all witnesses have been heard who want to
22 speak.
23 We will try to hear from all
24 witnesses who have anything to offer in
25 the way of testimony or evidence
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1 Proceedings
2 concerning the matters that have been
3 outlined generally in the hearing notice
4 that I have previously read. This
5 includes testimony that relates to the
6 operations and affairs of the Council as a
7 whole.
8 The committee may also consider
9 relevant information in the form of
10 documents and other exhibits as well. If
11 it should be necessary as a result of
12 testimony, this committee at its
13 discretion may also ask for documents to
14 be produced from the records of the
15 Council.
16 If there is a need to, this committee
17 will go off the record, for example, if we
18 have to confer about something that has
19 come up or clarify a matter. But as I
20 have stated earlier, no crossfire from the
21 floor. Whoever the witness is up
22 speaking, let him or her testify to the
23 committee and we'll conduct this hearing
24 in a fair and amicable manner with the
25 mutual respect that we owe one another as

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1 Proceedings
2 members of this Union.
3 There's no smoking in the hearing
4 room. Turn off your cellphone, and as you
5 come in, please remove hats or caps.
6 Thank you very much, and we will begin the
7 hearing and the first will I'll call it is
8 Robert Makowski.
9 MR. MAKOWSKI: I'd ask the panel i·f I
10 could wait and let other people for the
11 first time and I'll speak later on, today?
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, okay, but you
13 know, I'm giving you the opportunity. If
14 it avails itself, I'll call you later. If
15 it doesn't -- you'll have to reregister,
16 then.
17 MR. MAKOWSKI: Later.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. I'm just
19 saying. Carl Joshua? Carl in the room?
20 Carl is not here? He registered at 7:52.
21 Veronica Session. Is Veronica here?
22 I want you to go first over here,
23 give him your name, spell your name, and
24 then he will swear you in.
25 (Continued on following page.)

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1 Testimony - Veronica Session
2 VERONICA S E S S ION , having been
3 dUly sworn, testified as follows:
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Veronica, will you
5 come right over here and have a seat. You
6 want to pull that mic right close to you
7 there. Good morning.
8 THE WITNESS: Good morning.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: What Local are you
10 from?
11 THE WITNESS: Local 926.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Go ahead.
13 THE WITNESS: As a member for 19
14 years, you know, over the last two years,
15 things changed so much that it's more for
16 the contractors rather than the
17 membership. I've seen that as a member
18 myself, and also as a shop steward.
19 The reason I'm here today, not
20 necessarily to give a service, but to my
21 understanding, this hearing was to be a
22 gauge on whether we still should be under
23 supervision. So my point here this
24 morning in coming is the same, to end the
25 supervision.

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2 Those people who have been indicted,
3 and of course, those cases haven't come to
4 fruition yet to know if they are guilty or
5 not, but as a generality, members know for
6 sure that there are things going on and
7 nothing is being done about it. So my
8 hope, my hope, and I think my other
9 Sisters and Brothers hope the same, is
10 that something may be done.
11 It's not in any way out of our hands,
12 but it's such a big machine at this point
13 that the few of us who speak up, nothing
14 ever happens. And I found that myself a
15 number of times. I reached the Hot Line,
16 I -- but nothing ever really happens.
17 And also, those who have been, I'll
18 say, indicted, those are not the only ones
19 who need to be, okay? There's much, much,
20 much more going on than has been -- than
21 has been shown right now. So we need help
22 from an entity that is truly looking out
23 for the members' behalf, okay? This is
24 barely the surface, okay?
25 There are members here, well, I would

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2 have hoped that this room would be much
3 fuller than i t is now, but that only goes
4 to show that we feel as a whole that
5 nothing is going to be done. Time after
6 time, it's been shown that. Things have
7 gone -- are going on that out-of-work
8 list, I believe, things are going on
9 certainly with other trades doing our work
10 with non-Union members doing our work, and
11 a whole myriad of things, even though it
12 may not seem on the surface .

.
13 So what I ask you of is to be given
14 enough time to delve into things that will
15 really, really show what's going on and to
16 change that. Because we can't do it
17 alone, okay? The members reach out,
18 choose to speak up, they are blackballed,
19 okay?
20 I've been here 19 years, and I hope
21 to retire with some benefits, but that's
22 very iffy, because a couple of -- and
23 there are a lot of people in this same
24 position, because we don't get the -- the
25 fair share of the work that we should be

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2 getting. Everybody, every member, I know
3 I joined the Union because I believed even
4 though it would be hard, because it is a
5 male-dominated field, and that was okay,
6 but to the extent that it is corrupt, i t
7 is biased, it is antiwoman, and. it is also
8 antiminority, I still was here for 19
9 years but as a whole, we don't get the
10 hours we deserve, and it's not because of
11 any lack of intelligence, any lack of
12 skill. It simply was of lack of
13 connection.
14 So how things are now, it's
15 absolutely unfair, unjust, undemocratic
16 and i t goes against what the Union is
17 saying they are supposed to be about.
18 So we ask -- I ask specifically, and
19 for my Sisters and Brothers who chose not
20 to be here because they are working, or
21 because they are scared, or for whatever
22 the case may be, the majority of us would
23 be here if we felt that something would
24 happen. So again, just to let you know
25 that this whole system needs to be

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2 relooked at, revamped, and -- because
3 we -- we the members who are really
4 going to go out and do the work are not
5 going to be treated fairly and honestly.
6 And that the just about the testimony I
7 have to say.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much
9 for your testimony.
10 THE WITNESS: You're welcome.
11 (Applause. )
12 THE CHAIRMAN: John McHugh? John
13 McHugh? Dennis Luria, Dennis, are you
14 here?
15 MR. LURIA: Yes, I am. The question
16 I have is more specific as to what's going
17 on
18 THE CHAIRMAN: You've got to come up,
19 get sworn in and take the seat.
20 DEN N I S L URI A , having been duly sworn,
21 testified as follows:
23 from, John?
24 THE WITNESS: Dennis. 926.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay, go ahead with

..

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1 Testimony - Dennis Luria
2 your testimony.
3 THE WITNESS: Well, like I said, it's
4 more specific because what I wanted to
5 know is, will any of the members that were
6 fired, with they be eligible to receive
7 their pension or any of the monies that
8 are due to them due to the fact that they
9 are fired?
10 THE CHAIRMAN: I don't know -- you
11 know, you've got to understand something.

.
12 We're not here to answer questions
13 specific about New York.
14 THE WITNESS: Right, but --
15 THE CHAIRMAN: I don't understand
16 I mean, I understand that -- is this about
17 the indictments? I don't know what you're
18 talking about, members that have been
19 fired. I don't know even what you're
20 talking about.
21 THE WITNESS: We were talking about
22 people that were in the District Council
23 that no longer have their jobs for
24 whatever reason, because they were fired,
25 the indictments --

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2 THE CHAIRMAN: I'll answer this one
3 question. The people who have a vested
4 pension and a right to draw pension, that
5 has nothing to do with the criminal
6 proceeding, they are entitled under ERISA
7 to draw a pension. That's your question,
8 that's the answer.
9 Pat Mee?
10 PAT M E E , having been duly sworn, testified
11 as follows:
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Good morning, Pat
14 THE CHAIRMAN: What Local Union?
15 THE WITNESS: 926.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: You have to get close
17 to the mic and talk fairly slowly.
18 THE WITNESS: I never intended to
19 come up here so this will be very -- I
20 mean, I just I whatever has been
21 said before I got here, so this is going
22 to be kind of -- okay. First thing I want
23 to say, I've never heard -- I want the
24 Federal government to come back in and
25 send an investigator. The only full

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2 change that came in this Union is by the
3 Federal government, and every finding,
4 every disclosure has been through the
5 Federal Government, not through our Union.
6 There are two very positive federal
7 regulations. The drug testing and the
8 background checks, as far as I know, are
9 already in law, and will not go into
10 effect in New York so your Union officials
11 are not following the law. I mean,
12 someone said it costs too much, it costs
13 19,000 a month, which adds up to 1,080,000
14 a year. The people we have now cost
15 660,000 I believe. Found absolutely
16 nothing. They are having drug testing.
17 Nobody said anything.
18 So for $660,000, you're getting
19 someone to join the party? Or
20 furthermore, we're getting someone
21 everything that was found to date was
22 found by him, not by anyone in our
23 District Councilor anything else. As for
24 the District Council elections themselves,
25 during the last election, one of the

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2 candidates, what was his name, Hector?
3 That had a disagreement -- they roughed
4 him up outside. I mean, this is a fair
5 election? This is America, this is 2008,
6 was it, a candidate got the crap beat out
7 of him? This is not the 19th century
8 where this happened. You go to these
9 Union meetings and everyone is saying, yes
10 our voice counts and all this? It doesn't
11 count.
12 I went to Union meetings. I'm coming
13 from the outside in, I think. I went to a
14 Union meeting and they were having votes
15 and I'm standing there and I say to the
16 guy next to me, "I can't hear a word he'S
17 saying. What are we voting on?" He says,
18 "There's a reason you can't hear. You're
19 not supposed to hear." And the only thing
20 you would hear "is all in favor," and then
21 it was yeas, and it got to one point where
22 he said "all in favor," and nobody
23 answered. Nobody in the room answered.
24 So, and the motion passed.
25 So don't tell me these votes are

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2 happening. I mean, the reason nobody's
3 here and the reason I think you heard
4 yesterday, nobody can get any information
5 from anybody on anything.
6 I mean, so I want the federal
7 government back in. I don't know if that
8 affected you or not. I was -- but the
9 fact that you're back again shows that we
10 cannot, as somebody people said yet, we
11 cannot control ourselves.
12 I mean, yesterday it came out to me,
13 all these people coming up saying, "Oh,
14 yes, we have people qualified in New
15 York," that weren't apparently in the job.
16 If people want more Union participation,
17 the one thing, I think it's the same
18 problem the engineers had, everybody must
19 vote. If you are in the Union, if there
20 is an election, you must vote. If you do
21 not vote, you do not have the right to
22 work. That is plain and simple. The
23 biggest change that's going to make this
24 Union work is, everybody must vote in an
25 election. First stop. Not -- a picket

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2 duty. Picket duty is compulsory or pay a .
3 fine. Why can't we -- this is the most
4 fundamental thing for this Union, where
5 every member who doesn't have a voice, he
6 should vote. If they don't vote, they
7 have no right to come here and complain.
8 If the last elections, I read the
9 actual results and if you go to -- I
10 couldn't find last night, I -- but I think
11 there was 797 votes set out against him.
12 There was no votes passed against him.
13 With all the votes, 25,000 members, nobody
14 voted for any candidate other than Mike
15 Forde. They do this in African countries;
16 and when they come out, nobody voted
17 against him, obviously, the election was
18 rigged or something.
19 So Mike Forde couldn't get, after he
20 was brought up on charges for accepting
21 bribes, and nobody would could actually
22 pass a valid vote and vote against him?
23 And no one thinks there is something wrong
24 here?
25 Plus the fact, he cost us $700,000

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2 last year? I mean, Walter Mack thought he
3 cost us a million. Mike Forde cost us
4 $7,02,568 last year.
5 And another thing, everyone is
6 saying, with all this disclosure. I want
7 to know Mike Forde's salary, because
8 everybody is saying this, but as far as I
9 know, there's not a trusteeship involved.
10 He's not a trustee on the benefit funds,
11 and from what I understand, and I can't
12 find this on the Internet, this is the
13 salary of a hundred thousand dollars? I
14 want to know, our officers, the test, the
15 jobs they have as -- the jobs that they
16 publicly hold, this jobs they appointed
17 themselves to and how much they get paid
18 from these jobs. I want to know his total
19 salary. I want to know what jobs he's
20 given himself, and all his -- another
21 thing, business agents and their expenses,
22 someone worked on $30,000 expenses, and
23 that's it. That's all you're told.
24 I want a breakdown on the business
25 expenses. I want to know -- we're paying

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2 their tolls and we're paying all there
3 gas. Fair enough. So where, after all of
4 this, I mean, I go to work. I don't have
5 $27,000 expenses a year. So I want to
6 know where they are spending $27,000 on
7 cars. I just want to know where it's
8 going. Fair enough, if it's work-related.
9 I just want to know where. I don't want a
10 one line -- that covers fifty percent of
11 his salary for a year is one line, and
12 the -- the only reason it's there, because
13 the Federal Government forced them to
14 release this information.
15 If this wasn't answered, we would
16 know nothing. You have my shop stewards
17 coming out saying they can't get a copy of
18 the contract we're working under. So you
19 mean, do you think they are going to
20 release -- we can't even find a contract
21 that was signed on our behalf, supposedly
22 for our benefit? The information is not
23 forthcoming from these people. It never
24 does. The reason there are so few people
25 here is because they have all been beaten

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2 down because no information ever is
3 released from the people who are in power
4 now.
5 The mere fact that the same crew got
6 back in after the disastrous job they did
7 the last time to me is just shocking. But
8 three thousand members, I think, out of
9 25,000? To me, that's just wrong.
10 The out-of-work list, I think it's
11 fine exactly as it is. I have members
12 come up
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Let me interrupt you
14 for a second. I want to go back to your
15 point there. I mean, you've drawn out all
16 these terms and accusations. That you had
17 an election for the executive secretary.
18 Three thousand people voted. So that's
19 fraud. Now, how
20 THE WITNESS: Not the three thousand.
21 I believe three thousand people went down
22 to vote.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: But I'm saying, why
24 did that constitute a fraud?
25 THE WITNESS: No, that doesn't

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2 constitute a fraud.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: You said it was fraud.
4 THE WITNESS: No, I said it was -- I
5 didn't say it was a fraud. I said i t was
6 something extremely suspicious.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Was there any
8 candidate running against Mr. Forde?
9 THE WITNESS: There had to be, I
10 believe.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, I don't know.
12 THE WITNESS: I don't -- okay. I
13 just think it's wrong, the fact that
14 nobody voted against him. He had no
15 votes --
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, if there was
17 only one candidate, he would get the votes
18 that went down to vote, I presume. I
19 don't know. I have no idea whether there
20 was a contested election or not. I wasn't
21 here.
22 THE WITNESS: As far as I know, it's
23 contested. That is --
24 THE CHAIRMAN: But when we start
25 using fraud and all of this stuff, let's

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2 think about what we're talking about. I
3 mean, if a member chooses not to vote,
4 that's their right. You can vote or not
5 .vo.te. I mean, we're not here forcing
6 people to vote if they choose not to vote.
7 That's their right. So in the United
8 States, what we ought to do is punish
9 everybody who doesn't vote in a general
10 election? That's absurd on the face of
11 it, to punish people for exercising a
12 right to withhold their vote. We can't do
13 that.
14 THE WITNESS: I think it has to be
15 done --
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, that's your
17 opinion.
18 THE WITNESS: -- I know, which is --
19 everybody's got their opinion. This is
20 mine. I didn't expect people to agree
21 with me. I know the engineers do it. I
22 know the system we have now doesn't work.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: I don't think so, but
24 that's --
25 THE WITNESS: I think something has

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2 to be changed. I think members have to be
3 forced to be involved at this stage, since
4 they are not getting involved. If they
5 want to save the Union, members have to
6 get involved. They are not doing it.
7 This is not happening. Three thousand
8 people out of 25,000 decided the entire
9 future of this Union. I think people have
10 to be forced to go out and vote. I'm not
11 saying it has to be done every time, but I
12 think for once, people should have to show
13 that they can make a difference and if you
14 have to force them to do i t for once, I
15 think that's what you have to do.
16 I honestly believe that if the same
17 three thousand people who are controlling
18 everything now continue to do so in the
19 future, nothing is going to change. So if
20 we're going to change something, I think
21 that is the thing we have to address. The
22 more even from one list, if we can get
23 this Union running being some way
24 straight, and then when something will
25 change from this, then people will say,

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2 "Well, something is wrong here." Right
3 now, and you've had testimony that since
4 this Union was first formed 120 years ago,
5 it has been corrupt. This came out
6 yesterday, that this Union has always been
7 corrupt. So what I'm saying is, we have
8 to get to a stage where, we're saying that
9 this is a Union that it is so normal,
10 so -- people are doing what they are
11 supposed to do and then when it changes
12 from that, people will say, "Well, maybe
13 there's something wrong here."
14 I mean, it's my opinion. I'm not
15 saying I'm right, I'm not saying I'm
16 wrong, but everybody else is giving
17 theirs, so I'll say, this is what I
18 thought.
19 The out-of-work list. I heard
20 everyone bashing contractors. It's not
21 the contractors who are making a fortune
22 out of this, it's the developers.
23 Everybody who is attacking the contractors
24 thinks it's going to contractors. It's
25 not. They don't make a fortune. I've met

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2 contractors, and they 'are not living that
3 lifestyle, If you want to attack someone,
4 you go after the developers who are trying
5 to bring down the price of having the
6 place built,
7 The idea came up that he should have
8 a job, that he thinks the Union should get
9 him a job, I don't think the Union is
10 here to supply him a job. The Union is
11 here to supply working conditions under
12 which he works when you obtain a job.
13 This is not where everybody gets a
14 job regardless of your skills. Why should
15 contractors be forced to hire you if you
16 have no skills, and there are people out
17 there. The apprenticeship program does
18 not work. I don't know what the school is
19 like. I've seen apprentices on the job.
20 An apprentice on the job, his job is to
21 hold materials and put in insulation.
22 That's it. Shop stewards are going out
23 seeing they are doing their jobs? as far
24 as I know, there's a Union rule providing
25 apprentice must work a certain number of

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2 hours on the tools per week. This is not
3 being enforced. This is not bringing the
4 apprentices up the par. You have
5 apprentices who are coming out and after
6 four years, they are told to hold
7 Sheetrock and put in insulation. That's
8 all they've done in four years.
9 The Union is supposed to stop it.
10 They don't --
11 THE CHAIRMAN: All right, we're not
12 going to debate things back and forth in
13 the audience. Go ahead.
14 THE WITNESS: Another thing the
15 Federal Government found is that most of
16 the time we were supplying our employees
17 with cars. They were leasing cars. We
18 were leasing cars for our employees, that
19 it was illegal and the Federal Government
20 found it. And that's about it.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
22 (Applause. )
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Mark Kennedy?
25

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1 Testimony - Mark Kennedy
2 MARK KEN NED Y, having been duly sworn,
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Mark, what Local are
5 you from?
6 THE WITNESS: From Local 608.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, go ahead.
8 THE WITNESS: I just have a single
9 question. Is there going to be a
10 transcript of these proceedings?
11 THE CHAIRMAN: The answer is yes.
12 There will be a transcript. Anybody, any
13 Local, any entity that wants to purchase
14 one, make arrangements with the court
15 reporter.
16 THE WITNESS: And how do you arrange
17 that, how do you make those arrangements?
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Talk to him right
19 here.
20 THE WITNESS: Can you answer a
21 question for me right now? Tell me how to
22 make those arrangements?
23 THE CHAIRMAN: I know, but he's
24 typing.
25 THE WITNESS: I realize that. I

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1 Testimony - Thomas Gorman
2 would have to purchase this?
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, the Local Union
4 can purchase it. Whoever wants a
5 transcript will purchase it.
6 Thomas Gorman?
7 THO MAS G 0 R MAN , having been duly
8 sworn, testified as follows:
10 from?
11 THE WITNESS: Local Union 608.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay, go ahead.
13 THE WITNESS: Just some suggestions.
14 Our member services at the school stinks
15 if you ask me. All shop stewards, foremen
16 and
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Would you get a little
18 closer to the mic
19 THE WITNESS: All shop foremen and
20 teachers should have to take the shop
21 steward classes, too. If there's drug
22 testing, alcohol and background checks for
23 business agents and shop stewards, it
24 should be done for all members. All shop
25 stewards should have 15 years experience

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2 in the field.
3 (Applause.)
4 THE WITNESS: Teach rules and
5 bargaining agreements at the school. All
6 classes should be available to all members
7 weekly. Not, it takes months sometimes to
8 get a class. All carpenters that come
9 into the Union from the non-Union field
10 should be tested for their skills, not
11 just handed a book. Members should be
12 able to sponsor -- Union members should be
13 able to sponsor people to get them into
14 the Union. You can't get people in the
15 Union if you've been on the Union now.
16 You have to wait on some bogus list that
17 maybe they choose you. All stop stewards
18 and carpenters should work out of the
19 Local first. Then if we need other
20 carpenters, they should come from various
21 locals. That doesn't happen anymore. All
22 members should go to at least six Union
23 meetings in every Local, every member,
24 District Council, everybody, school.
25 All money that is made in New York

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2 should be invested with New York companies
3 in New York. It shouldn't leave our city.
4 (Applause. )
5 THE WITNESS: There should be no
6 co-pay on health benefits, dental, eye or
7 medication. For the amount of money we
8 pay in benefits, we shouldn't be paying
9 these co-pays. Retirees should get more
10 jobs in the District Council. Instead of
11 work the out in the field 30 hours a month
12 or whatever it may be, they should offer
13 them jobs and take away people in the
14 District Council in order to cut the
15 costs.
16 (Applause. )
17 THE WITNESS: The new out-of-work
18 list should be enforced. We should stop
19 Local 7 Westchester, New Jersey, and all
20 other outside locals from working in our
21 areas. Accept supervision. We should get
22 rid of the organizing department because I
23 feel that they haven't kept the non-Union
24 contractors continuously paying Union
25 benefits. We've taken non-Union

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2 contractor, you we get their members, they
3 don't even have skills, a lot of them, and
4 then their contractor is no longer paying
5 benefits and we're stuck with them.
6 Get rid of all the assessments. BAs
7 should take over the organizer's job like
8 organizing picket lines and turning
9 contractors. All Union business agents
10 International jobs should be voted upon.
11 All the members should vote for those
12 jobs, not like McCarron appointed himself
13 in after he got voted in, then he
14 continuously appoints himself in.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Now, hold it, stop it.
16 You're getting way, way, way, I don't know
17 where you're coming up with some of these
18 crazy ideas, but Doug McCarron has never
19 appointed himself into anything. Doug
20 McCarron is elected by delegates, at a
21 general convention every five years, so
22 let's stop the bullshit and get on with
23 the facts, okay?
24 Let me tell you something, you're
25 making all of these wild accusations about

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1 Testimony- Thomas Gorman
2 stuff that you absolutely have no
3 knowledge of; so let's stick with the
4 facts.
5 If you have facts, then don't make
6 statements.
7 THE WITNESS: I feel the members
8 should vote, okay? All right, moving
9 along, you shouldn't be so angry. It
10 shows something is wrong --
11 (Applause. )
12 THE WITNESS: After doing your job as
13 a business agent for two terms, I believe
14 you should move on to the International
15 for two terms, and then you should go down
16 and teach at the District Council to
17 continue on. Okay? And if it was voted
18 in, I believe McCarron wouldn't be in

.
19 office today. Thank you very much.
20 (Applause. )
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Would you sit back
22 down for a second? You're obviously, you
23 have at least a perception that you know
24 what's right or wrong. This is the second
25 time I've heard this, and I just want your

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2 observation. Pension money, you said you
3 want all pension money invested in New
4 York City, right?
5 THE WITNESS: The money that was
6 earned in New York I feel should be
7 invested in New York companies that build
8 their buildings Union, we should be
9 invested with them
10 THE CHAIRMAN: So your opinion
11 THE WITNESS: -- keep our money in
12 our city.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Let me just finish.
14 Your opinion is, we take all pension money
15 and invest i t in buildings?
16 THE WITNESS: All money, New York's
17 money.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: This is pension and
19 everything, is that right?
20 THE WITNESS: Yes, all the funds.
21 All funds that we create in New York
22 should stay in New York.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Building buildings?
24 THE WITNESS: Excuse me?
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Building buildings?

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2 THE WITNESS: No, not building
3 buildings. With the investment firms, say
4 let's just use Goldman Sachs as an
5 example. He built his building Union.
6 Why shouldn't he be one of the people that

.
7 bid on getting our contracts in order to
8 invest our money, whether it's annuity,
9 vacation, pension? Why aren't most people
10 offered the job, why is it sent to other
11 places? That's all I'm suggesting. It's
12 a suggestion now, sir.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay, wait a minute.
14 Goldman Sachs --
15 THE WITNESS.: He built his building
16 Union --
17 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. But now
18 but you make these statements about
19 something that you want. Goldman Sachs is
20 an international, worldwide investment, so
21 if you put your money in Goldman Sachs in
22 New York City, or anybody else in New York
23 City, your assumption is that it's going
24 to stay in New York City.
25 THE WITNESS: No, that's not true.

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1 Testimony - Steven Seda
2 Could be invested in China. I don't want
3 to get into being a financial analyst
4 right now, sir, thank you very much.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay, thank you.
6 Steven Seda.
7 S T EVE N SED A , having been duly sworn,
.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Steven, what Local are
10 you from?
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Go ahead with your
13 testimony.
14 THE WITNESS: I've just come here to
15 say today that I feel the trustees should
16 be replaced. I feel the Union is no
17 longer for the members. I feel it's for
18 the contractors.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: What do you mean by
20 trustees, can you define that?
21 THE WITNESS: People that are on the
22 board, people that have been elected.
23 Also, I think there should be term limits.
24 These people seem to get in office and
25 they are on the slate now, and then they

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1 Testimony - Anthony Garcia
2 go -- I think get too comfortable. That's
3 really basically it in a nutshell. I'm
4 not going to --
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Steve, for
6 your testimony.
7 (Applause. )
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Anthony Garcia?
9 ANTHONY GAR C I A , having been duly
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Anthony, what Local
12 are you from?
15 testimony.
16 THE WITNESS: I just want to, for the
17 record, I want to say that when I voted
18 for, in the election, the EST freedom
19 team, whatever it was, there was no --
20 nobody running against EST Forde. Nobody
21 was running against him. There was no
22 you know, I looked to see if there was a
23 competitor or somebody running against
24 Forde. There was nobody there.
25 If you get a copy of the ballot, the

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2 voting ballot, you'll see, nobody was
3 running against Forde. So who could you
4 vote for EST? You know, for EST position?
5 Only Forde.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: It would be because
7 nobody nominated --
8 A VOICE: I think the member needs to
9 be corrected. There was somebody running
10 against
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, you can come up
12 and correct it on testimony. I don't
13 .
know. I wasn't here --
14 THE WITNESS: I didn't see no -- and,
15 you know, I believe that I've been
16 blackballed and mistreated in this Union
17 because -- I've been a shop steward also.
18 And I was taken out by Maurice Leary. He
19 took me out. He discredited me and he
20 also he also -- he just, you know, he
21 switched me on, you know, and he took my
22 name off the shop steward list. He put --
23 he put me on -- on the regular list that
24 doesn't even move. I've been on that list
25 for over a year. I've been on that list

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2 for over a year, since July of last -- of
3 2008. I've been on that list. That
4 doesn't move. I'm number 16 on that list
5 right now. A year and --
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Will you do me a
7 favor, explain to me, again, you have to
8 understand we're not familiar with what
9 happens in New York because we're none of
10 us from here. You say "that list." Is
11 there more than one list?
12 THE WITNESS: I don't know. I don't
13 know how many lists are at the District
14 Council because they don't show us. They
15 just, when you call up for your number,
16 when you call up the out-of-work list,
17 they tell you what your number is. That's
18 it. So I don't have -- I can't see what
19 they are looking at on their computer.
20 But they just look at it and they say that
21 your number is 16 or 15 --
22 THE CHAIRMAN: So your testimony is
23 that over the last year, you've been
24 number 16 and you haven't moved?
25 THE WITNESS: No, no. I was number

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2 three thousand and change back a year ago.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: So you're number 16
4 now.
5 THE WITNESS: July of last year. Now
6 I'm number 16 and I still haven't been
7 called to go out to work. Because people
8 are requested from the out-of-work list
9 and, you know, people are just being
10 requested. They are not being, you know,
11 that we -- that's why the list doesn't
12 move, because people are just being
13 requested from that list. And I'm a
14 vested carpenter, you know, I've been in
15 the Union for 15 years, 15, 16 years.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, it appears that
17 it moved some if you were number three
18 thousand and now you're number 16, sounds
19 like it moved about three thousand points.
20 Is that correct?
21 THE WITNESS: In a year?
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Am I right?
23 THE WITNESS: No. In over a year.
24 But it's over a year, let's see, July,
25 August, September, October -- November

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2 a year and four months I'm number 16. A
3 year and four months. And you know, I
4 would like -- I would like them to
5 investigate also, they put me on
6 suspension for three years. For three
7 years on the shop steward list, I can't be
8 a shop steward for three years, they got
9 me a suspension for that. Why they just,
10 if they want to devastate me, why don't
11 they just ban me altogether from being a
12 shop steward, or, you know, but, you know,
13 I want this investigated.
14 Why, you know, why do I get such a
15 harsh punishment as to, you know, I can't
16 be a shop steward for three years? I'm in
17 suspension for three years, why? I would
18 like to know why.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Was there something
20 that had happened? Was there a tribunal,
21 had there been a problem on the job? I
22 don't know.
23 THE WITNESS: I went to the school.
24 I went to school, I took the carpenter
25 classes, I took the -- you know, and I

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2 passed a11 of the
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. So your
4 testimony is that somebody arbitrari1y,
5 without any just cause, suspended you as a
6 shop steward for three years, just
7 uni1atera11y did this; is that correct?
8 THE WITNESS: It shou1d be 100ked
9 into.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. We11, I'm just
11 trying to find out what the facts are.
12 Was there, nobody said that you did this,
13 that or the other? They just said you are
14 now suspended?
15 THE WITNESS: No, they took me in
16 front of a board, but they pu11ed me off a
17 1ist and then they brought me against --
18 against a board in December of 1ast year,
19 they brought me up against a board and --
20 and they said is that I, you know, what
21 contractor 1ikes a shop steward in this
22 city, you know, and what contractor 1ikes,
23 you know, for shop stewards to, you know,
24 ca11 in the -- the -- what's going on on
25 their job, if they want to cut corners,

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2 you know, and call that in, what
3 contractor likes that about a shop
4 steward?
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, the board --
6 again, you'll have to pardon me, but is
7 this board consisting of Union people or
8 contractors?
9 THE WITNESS: What board?
10 THE CHAIRMAN: You said they called
11 you in before a board.
12 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Was that Union
14 people?
15 THE WITNESS: Yeah, Union people.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: So what does that have
17 to do with a contractor?
18 THE WITNESS: Nothing. But I'm just
19 saying, what contractors like shop
20 stewards on their jobs? You know?
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
22 THE WITNESS: And I just -- I just
23 want justice, you know? Justice, you
24 know, this Union -- I don't know. Falling
25 apart. You know. All right.

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1 Testimony - John Maggi
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you for your
3 testimony. John Maggi? Is John here?
4 J 0 H N MAG G I , having been duly sworn,
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Good morning. Could
7 you give us your Local, please?
8 THE WITNESS: 157.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay, proceed with
10 your testimony.
11 THE WITNESS: I came up with one
12 specific question, and I had no one raised
13 by the last couple's testimony. And I
14 think, remember, you're not from here, and
15 remember, we are here and get very
16 familiar with the everyday activities be
17 and we know each other, so instead of an
18 "I," many of us, "We" might feel that
19 we're on the list for 18 months and go out
20 for a job for six weeks, and go back on
21 the list for 14 months, when we see many
22 other carpenters go to an eight-month job
23 and they are only out of work a week and
24 go back out to another eight-month job.
25 So

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2 THE CHAIRMAN: So they are called?
3 THE WITNESS: Instead of, I have a
4 problem or another individual has a
5 problem, maybe if you'd look into the
6 general operation and the workings of the
7 work list so many of us -- you're not from
8 here, we are. It gets hard to describe
9 when we feel this is being administered,
10 okay
11 THE CHAIRMAN: For my education,
12 there's only one work list?
13 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry?
14 THE CHAIRMAN: There's only one work
15 list?
16 THE WITNESS: Yes. When we get down
17 to, there's a Javits list, or -- but when
18 we say, we call into the District Council,
19 to be on the general list.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: General Carpenters'
21 work list.
22 THE WITNESS: Yes. And that was just
23 something that came out as the last
24 person's testimony. I came up with a
25 question. In a period of difficulty with

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2 accusations and investigations, it does
3 bring my mind back to the last time we
4 went through a bumpy road like this and we
5 were specifically told when our welfare
6 fund was depleted and misadministered that
7 there was $34 million missing and we were
8 assessed a certain percentage of our work
9 hours and that assessment was to make'up
10 that shortfall.
11 At the time, they did a little
12 formula for us and they showed us the
13 number of working carpenters, the average
14 number hours worked times the assessment,
15 and how much they anticipated would be
16 raised by the assessment. And the
17 projection was, we would have this
18 assessment on our pay for two years.
19 Somebody told me now it's eight, nine
20 years.
21 So how do you get $34 million in nine
22 years of this assessment? Can you look
23 in, when they say, you know, show me the
24 money, money is going to be commingled,
25 and -- it goes through accountants

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1 . Testimony - John Maggi
2 could you look at the vote, the proposal
3 that passed the assessment, what was it
4 supposed to apply to, how much was
5 supposed to be made up, and how much.have
6 they raised under our assessment since
7 then?
8 My -- my inkling is that we overpaid
9 what was supposed to be paid off by
10 ten-fold.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, the
12 Vice-President who is supervising, Frank
13 Spencer, is in back of the room. I'm sure
14 he hears what you're saying, will look
15 into it.
16 THE WITNESS: Okay, thank you very
17 much.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Now, for your benefit
19 and maybe the rest of these folks, because
20 we have a little bit of time, we usually
21 don't do this, I was on the hearing panel
22 back in the '90s when we had all of the
23 corruption hearing council. It kind of
24 amazed me that I sat here for three
25 different sessions, three days, and had

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461
2 people stand up and tell us that, you
3 know, we, the International were the
4 Antichrist because we were coming in and
5 wanting to remove Fred Devine and his band
6 of thieves from the District Council.
7 And the reason that they said that in
8 most cases was because Fred Devine, when
9 election came around, gave cradle-to-death
10 health care benefits, second, third, extra
11 pension checks, arbitrarily raised pension
12 benefits, moved money from the pension
13 plan illegally into the healthcare plan to
14 shore i t up so he could get through the
15 election cycle; had 350 people on a
16 benefits payroll that was running the
17 benefits department when only about 70
18 were needed; kept GO-something cars in the
19 benefit plan, leasing for 1,800 a month, a
20 Lincoln Town Car for 2,800 a month. We
21 were the Antichrist.
22 When we got into here, because of all
23 of that misgiving and all the corruption
24 that had taken place, your pension plan
25 had a deficit of $500 million. But we

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2 were the bad guys. We were the bad guys.
3 THE WITNESS: Sir, if I could, you
4 took my question and started to answer.
5 At that point in your reply, you didn't
6 hear me throw any accusations towards I
7 didn't even mention Mr. Devine's name
8 the board --
THE CHAIRMAN: I understand.
10 THE WITNESS: Even the current
11 troubles, I'm not a judge --
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay, bu there's my
13 point. The 34 million, I have no idea
14 what that assessment was about. But at
15 the time that somebody implemented
16 something to cover a $34 million deficit,
17 my point, getting back to it --
18 THE WITNESS: It was more than
19 THE CHAIRMAN: It was five hundred
20 million. Now, I can't -- I don't sit on
21 the pension board here. I don't know what
22 your funding issues are. I don't know,
23 you know, everybody took a hit in the last
24 couple of years, because of the stock
25 market, and everybody's involved in the

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2 stock market and you have to be because
3 you have a fiduciary responsibi1ity to
4 maximize your income on the pension, on
5 the pension funds of the Internationa1.
6 But I understand a11 of this.
7 But I'm just saying that we wi11 have
8 someone 100k into that. But 34 mi11ion
9 wou1d have been nothing compared to where
10 you were at in the 1ate '90s. Where

.
11 you're at today, I can't answer that.
12 THE WITNESS: Thank you for that
13 exp1anation. Here here's my point. If
14 our pension fund, you know, thanks to the
15 1ast oversight committee, started
16 regenerating and started getting hea1thy,
17 thank you. But we have to watch sometimes
18 when you take from when one takes from
19 the pocket, one takes from that pocket;
20 when one assesses here, we now have a
21 second assessment.
22 So I'm referring specifica11y, just
23 because of the way it was phrased at the
24 time, and maybe I'm wrong -- thanks for
25 te11ing me about the five hundred

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2 million -- at the time, we were told we
3 were going to be assessed for several
4 years to make up the 34 million that was
5 missing from the general welfare. So I'm
6 looking for, maybe an excuse to initiate
7 something, money starts flowing and then
8 people forget why it started flowing.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: You can ask Frank
10 THE WITNESS: It's still flowing
11 THE CHAIRMAN: supervisor and you
12 probably will get the answer.
13 THE WITNESS: I'd like to have the
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay, thank you.
15 Terrence Samson? Terrence here?
16 TERRENCE SAM SON , having been duly
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Good morning,
19 Terrence.
22 from?
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Go ahead, Terrence,
25 where your testimony.

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1 Testimony - Terrence Samson
2 THE WITNESS: The situation is that I
3 would like them to do away with the shop
4 steward committee and the regular
5 committee that runs underneath the
6 District Council. However, there was a
7 lot of racial stuff that is going on
8 between the committee, starting up with
9 Scott Anderson, Maurice Leary, Robert
10 Seeger, John Holt, and the others who are
11 part of this committee.
12 Evidently, they falsely accused me
13 because I spoke out on an issue and I feel
14 I was blacklisted, and when I tried to
15 speak about the justice, they think I'm a
16 rebel rouser. So apparently, these guys
17 have i t out for me. They did not only
18 suspend me once, they did i t twice because
19 I made a motion and told what they can do
20 and cannot do, they said I'm acting like
21 I'm my own lawyer and they should allow a
22 person to bring their own testimony and
23 their attorney, which I haven't seen
24 someone has to be someone on the carpet
25 because when these individuals who do get

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1 Testimony - Terrence Samson
2 themselves in trouble and problems with
3 the law, they are allowed to get an
4 attorney on the outside.
5 I believe that every carpenter member
6 should have carte blanche to have an
7 attorney present when these meetings are
8 being taken place. However, so they can
9 understand exactly how these rules are
10 officiated, how these rules got here, and
11 basically with Scott Anderson barricading
12 with him and his committee and Maurice
13 Leary and operation, I feel that they are
14 all of crooked and I feel they all should
15 have not only an investigation, but
16 Maurice Leary also told me that the day
17 that the committee had convicted me of
18 wrongdoing, that they all were twisted.
19 So just to show you that the truth is
20 out there, it's in the newspaper, we also
21 know that Michael Forde and whoever that's
22 underneath him needs to be scrutinized
23 underneath the microscope more probably.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: That's your testimony?
25 THE WITNESS: That's my testimony.

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1 Testimony - Robert Makowski
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much.
3 (Applause. )
4 THE CHAIRMAN: We're going to take
5 about a ten-minute break. Anybody else
6 that wishes to testify in this morning's
7 session please do so by signing up
8 outside.
9 (Recess taken.)
10 THE CHAIRMAN: All right, gentlemen,
11 please take your seats. Robert Makowski?
12 THE WITNESS: I'm already sworn in.
13 ROBERT MAKOWSKI, having been
14 previously sworn, resumed and testified
15 further as follows:
16 THE WITNESS: Robert Makowski, Local
17 157. I just want to put across the point
18 that I saw this morning, and this might
19 lead to some reason why the supervision
20 should be continued, or until its purpose
21 is fulfilled.
22 I was waiting upstairs to come down
23 this morning. And there were a bunch of
24 carpenters setting up for a trade show.
25 They took their break, and they were

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1 Testimony - Robert Makowski
2 walking past the entrance to this meeting,
3 they saw the signs and they were pointing
4 at it laughing. I couldn't understand
5 why. So I went over to them and I asked
6 them. I said, "You guys interested in
7 what's going on downstairs?" And they all
8 laughed again. And they said, "No, not
9 really. "
10 And that's it. That's the statement
11 I want to make this morning. That's it.
12 Thank you.
14 (Applause. )
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Anthony Garcia, you
16 said you wanted to augment your testimony?
17 ANTHONY GARCIA, having been
18 previously sworn, resumed and testified
19 further as follows:
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Want to take the cap
21 off, please. Go ahead, you were
22 previously sworn in. You're under oath.
23 THE WITNESS: Well, I just want to
24 say that, you know, somebody was to my,
25 you know, to my understanding, somebody

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2 was running against -- against the EST,
3 but he wasn't put on the ballot because I
4 guess he was disqualified for some reason.
5 But, you know, I just want to make that
6 known for the record.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you know why he was
8 disqualified? Had he not met the terms
9 and conditions of the UBC Constitution,
10 meaning that he was a member for a Local
11 for a year, or --
12 THE WITNESS: I don't know.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: I don't, either. I
14 wasn't here. But I can assure you that if
15 somebody was disqualified, i t was because
16 he didn't meet the qualifications under
17 the current Constitution.
18 THE WITNESS: Yes.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay, thank you. Is
20 that it?
21 THE WITNESS: Um, and, you know, the
22 Union should -- this is -- well, I want to
23 find out what's going on with the -- with,
24 you know, as far as, uh, you know, is
25 everybody going to be taken out of the

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2 District Council?
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Everybody that
4 was an officer of the District Council has
5 been removed as an officer of the District
6 Council by Frank Spencer, Vice-President
7 of the Eastern District, supervisor of the
8 District Council. They have all been
9 removed. They are not holding office.
10 THE WITNESS: So, well, why are they
11 there, or why are they here, or, you know,
12 why
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

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2 THE CHAIRMAN: Now, holding an office
3 and being a representative are two
4 different subject matters. You're not
5 elected as a representative. Frank
6 Spencer is responsible for running the
7 affairs of the Council be and hiring staff
8 for run the affairs of the Council, and
9 that's his call. But in terms of someone
10 holding office at the District Council,
11 Frank Spencer, the President,
12 Vice-President, secretary, everything.
13 THE WITNESS: All right, thank you.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: You're welcome.
15 Anybody else wish to give testimony at
16 this morning session?
17 We're going to adjourn and we will
18 reconvene as per the notice at one p.m.
19 Thank you.
20 (Recess taken: 9:54 a.m.)
21
22
23
24
25

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1
2 AFTERNOON S E S S ION
3 (1:00 p.m.)
4 THE CHAIRMAN: If everybody will come
5 in, we'll get the hearing started.
6 For those of you who were not present
7 at the morning session, or yesterday's
8 session, I want to introduce the panel.
9 To my left, Bob Yeggy, Vice-President of
10 the Midwest District. To my right, Dan
11 Maples who is International Vice-President
12 for the Southern District. My name is
13 Michael Draper. I'm the chairman of this
14 committee and I'm Vice-President for the
15 Western District.
16 A few simple rules. If your name is
17 called, you signed up to testify, come up
18 to the court reporter, give him your name,
19 your Local Union number, have a seat over
20 there, and remove your hats, turn off all
21 your cellphones, and you'll give your
22 testimony.
23 We're here today to take information
24 and testimony from the membership,
25 primarily in relationship to the letter

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1 Proceedings
2 that you all received from the General
3 President regarding the affairs of this
4 Council. We're not here in a
5 question-and-answer period. We're here to
6 gather information and testimony so that
7 we can make a decision on the general
8 executive board as to whether the
9 supervision of the New York City District
10 Council of Carpenters should continue.
11 With that, I'm going to call the
12 first person up to the mic, Michael
13 Marshak? Michael here? No? John
14 Cavelli? John, do you want to come over
15 and get sworn in, please? Sorry if I
16 didn't pronounce your name right.
17 J 0 H N C A VEL L I , having been duly
19 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon,
20 Brothers and Sisters, dais. My name is
21 John Cavelli. I'm a former Union
22 organizer, business agent of Local 1536,
23 the Denis Shiel Local. Used to be that
24 Local was, you know, dying slowly, each
25 guy had his own Local, God bless him.

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1 Proceedings
2 I loved my job at District Council, I
3 kind of got pushed out. A lot of problems
4 on District Council and I believe that
5 supervision should stay. Brother McCarron
6 put us on a bath from '95 on to try and
7 get rid of nepotism and cronyism. The
8 place is blatant. There's not a Local,
9 you know, getting what you're supposed to
10 get. It will help the general membership.
11 A got of guys think that they are owed
12 this job. When I was there, I worked for
13 the members.
14 The nepotism runs deep. If your
15 father gets you a job, a lot of Union guys
16 grew up, a lot of guys here, old-time
17 members, this was a father-and-son Union.
18 You went to work with your dad, you went
19 to work and you made him proud.
20 These guys get a job, this they
21 are not making us proud. They are making
22 their funds on the members' backs. I come
23 from a three-day organizing training. I
24 have no pedigree here. I'm a wood
25 butcher. My father was a cop. So I have

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1 Testimony - John Cavelli
2 no hook here. I earned my spot. A lot of
3 guys just got their spot, and that's
4 wrong. There's a lot that's wrong here.
5 Brother McCarron spoke about change in
6 1995. He moved me. When I went to that
7 room for that three-day, I was against a
8 Who's Who of all the Locals, and I thought
9 I was going to be out.
10 You know what? I did my best and I
11 won my spot, I earned my spot. There's a
12 lot of guys in this room that deserve that
13 spot but they got placed over. I was
14 placed over when I worked for District
15 Council. I was always an outsider from
16 within. You got a problem with the
17 coalition, call Johnny.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Slow down so he can
19 get everything.
20 THE WITNESS: I apologize. I'm
21 heated. Brother McCarron spoke about
22 change, and I was all for that. I changed
23 a lot of guys' lives. I organized
24 companies, brought guys into this fold.
25 But this District Council, they didn't

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2 change on me. They changed my life for
3 the worse nine months ago, kicked me out.
4 I'm not here for my job back. That's all
5 new, but it's wrong when they can just
6 pick and choose who passes and who fails.
7 You have guys breaking laws and they have
8 a job. Guys not breaking laws get fired.
9 You don't agree with them, you get fired.
10 I had a problem, back five years of
11 persecution from this District Council. I
12 brought it to the top and I was told,
13 "It's political, we don't get involved
14 with political maneuvers." It's wrong.
15 As a Union representative, I represent
16 these guys and girls. I fought for them.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Slow down a little
18 bit.
19 THE WITNESS: I apologize, sir. I
20 fought for these guys and girls whenever I
21 could. When I had a beef within my
22 District Council, I had no representation.
23 If I went to someone, I was told I went
24 outside the chain of command, how can you
25 have a chain of command when the next

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2 chain is a guy looking to hammer you? How
3 can you go to the next link? You can't.
4 You have to go around.
5 So there's a lot of that has to be
6 changad in this District Council, wipe the
7 slate clean. Keap the International here.
8 Do I think the International was perfect?
9 No. They weren't the holy grail, but at
10 least they were ten guys, five guys who
11 were indifferent. Ten guys -- from the
12 teacher fellows that I passed a method
13 that you want to put in place to play with
14 the seats, to grow this District Council.
15 And then you have guys who they just put
16 in? That's a slap in the face every
17 teaching fellow who signed the form of a
18 guy who passed the three-day. When you
19 send a couple of your guys to another city
20 or state to make sure you --
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Slow down.
22 THE WITNESS: -- again I apologize
23 sir, I'm a little heated.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay, jus t think abou t
25 it, slow down.

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2 THE WITNESS: All right. So there's
3 a lot wrong here. It's got to be changed,
4 it's got to be changed from the top. You
5 look -- this is embarrassing. We have 60
6 Brothers and Sisters here, why? Because
7 we're on Eleventh Avenue. We have a
8 District Council that has eight subway
9 trains that can get you there.
10 I'm working right now not as
11 carpenter, as a project manager. I'm
12 making half my pay. It's going to cost me
13 over a hundred dollars, I parked my truck
14 this morning. I didn't leave. So a
15 member who's out of work, or working one
16 or two days a week, can't afford to park a
17 hundred dollars here. I can't afford it
18 either, but this is the only chance I have
19 to speak my piece, so I'm going to eat
20 that money. If we would have had this at
21 District Council, we would have about a
22 thousand guys and girls or more. We would
23 have had the option to have a voice.
24 Why do we have elections in the
25 middle of December when it's the most

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2 cold? Get the votes out. You want to see
3 the numbers?· Give them the opportune time
4 to get there. It's not fair in this
5 District Council. You're in or you're
6 out. There's no in between. They have
7 their little fiefdoms. That was supposed
8 to be over with in '95.
9 I've been on the out-of-work list. for
10 nine months. I hold the same skills as
11 every shop steward here. My CPR lapsed,
12 but I hold every skill. I should be the
13 next steward, or temporary steward, acting
14 steward. I haven't got all of nine
15 months. I have a wife and thee kids, a
16 mortgage like everybody else here. I'm
17 working for half my pay as a project
18 manager. Why? This month, I've been 18
19 years in the Union and it took me 7 years
20 to make it up from the building. I did
21 it. I earned it. How are these guys
22 supposed to earn it? They don't have a
23 chance. They need to get the chance.
24 Let's be led my Carpenter, real
25 Carpenters, not off the backs of the

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2 membership. Okay? If you commit a crime,
3 you've got to go. Don't cover it up. I
4 got fired, pushed out, withdrawn, for
5 teaching a class. I didn't break any
6 Union rules. Okay? That's that's the
7 point I'm saying, Pete. It's, you're in,
8 you're out. I like you, I don't like you.
9 That's wrong. That's not how McCarron
10 planned this. I don't think he planned it
11 that way.
12 I really have a lot to say, a lot to
13 get off my chest. It's wrong. How is it
14 that organizers, when you go to your
15 District Council, you're told -- to
16 replenish your picket signs, you're told,
17 "Get out of here, I don't want to see you
18 up here"? That's our headquarters. We're
19 supposed to be there. We're not hanging
20 out.
22 THE WITNESS: Sorry. I'm not hanging
23 out. I'm not part of a coffer klatch.
24 When I come in here to get what I need and
25 to go, you're supposed to be welcomed in

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2 your District Council. Most guys are not.
3 I remember the first seven hired. There's
4 no pedigree here. I'm a regular guy. The
5 regular guys deserve a job, too. They
6 deserve to work 40 hours a week when it's
7 there, not guys double-dipping, working 40
8 hours for one company, and they get sent
9 to a job on the weekend. You know what?
10 If everybody's working, if somebody double
11 dips, at least everybody's working.
12 But when there's 200 guys out in a
13 big carpenter Local or a hundred guys out
14 in a special Local like me, no one should
15 be double-dipping. Let him come to my
16 house and answer the phone from Chase or
17 from Visa, all right? I haven't had a
18 Carpenter paycheck since March. That's
19 wrong. I could do my job. I'm a big guy.
20 I'm fit. I can sheet a hole, I can build
21 a hoist, I can climb a scaffold. I can do
22 it today, I could do it tomorrow, I did i t
23 five years ago.
24 I'm not afraid to work. I need a
25 chance to work. I can't be told, "I'm not

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2 going to hire you." I have a wife and
3 three kids. I want to eat. I don't want
4 a problem. I want to eat. But it's wrong
5 that someone can knock me out of a job and
6 then punish my family. That's what they
7 are doing. They are punishing my family.
8 I did nothing wrong to be punished to
9 begin with.
10 Okay, I love this Brotherhood. I
11 worked day and night, but they have to
12 attack corruption, I went. I'm the guy at
13 night in the bad neighborhoods 3 o'clock
14 in the morning trying to catch guys
15 working. But these guys
17 THE WITNESS: -- these guys don't do
18 that. They hide under security. Let them
19 in, don't let them in. It's nonsense.
20 Grievance, they let grievances go to --
21 they deal them down. How do you deal down
22 a grievance? If you catch a contractor
23 and he owes you ten carpenters per day,
24 let him pay for the ten -- don't let him
25 settle for a shop steward. Make him pay

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2 ten carpenters. Let ten days' pay --
3 THE CHAIRMAN: You've got to slow
4 down.
5 THE WITNESS: Sir, I apologize.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Don't apologize, slow
7 down, because there's a court reporter
8 trying to keep up with everything.
9 Address your comments up here.
10 THE WITNESS: I apologize, sir. I
11 have a lot of people in the District
12 Council that I called my friends, clearly
13 weren't. As I said before, I didn't do
14 anything wrong I would help anybody in
15 anything, anyone. I was told, "Why are
16 you doing this, why are you doing that,
17 why are you organizing? Why are you going
18 after that company?" When I was a
19 business agent.
20 How do you tell someone why you're
21 organizing a company that's doing your
22 work? That's eating your lunch? How do
23 you tell someone why you're doing that?
24 You should say, "Go get them. Go get
25 them." Not stop. "Why are you bringing

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2 these guys in?" We need them, they are
3 doing the work. Bring them in. I really
4 don't want to be redundant. I have a lot
5 to say, but you know what? Other guys
6 want to talk. I really appreciate your
7 time. It's my presentation that you keep
8 the supervision and clean house.
10 testimony.
11 THE WITNESS: You know what -- I
12 will --
13 (Applause. )
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Daniel Franco?
15 DAN I E L F RAN CO, having been duly
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Daniel, good
18 afternoon.
21 from?
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Go ahead and give your
24 testimony.
25 THE WITNESS: For weeks I've been

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1 Testimony - Daniel Franco
2 thinking about what I wanted to say here
3 during the hearing. And assembling
4 written testimony, dozens of pages long
5 that --
6 THE CHAIRMAN: All right, now, I
7 can't hear you, got a get a little closer.
8 Now, everybody keep in mind, you have to
9 talk somewhat constant, not -- it's very
10 difficult for this court reporter to keep
11 up with you, if you get into a fever
12 pitch. Go ahead.
13 THE WITNESS: I also am going to try
14 to cool myself, I apologize. And I'll
15 speak more slowly.
16 I wanted to talk about that Forde is
17 corrupt and has made many mistakes as EST,
18 that the PC execs have made mistakes also,
19 that the selection of the Javits Center is
20 not a good place, time or scheduling, and
21 like has already been said, that we should
22 have had it at the District Council; that
23 the blue card was a form of extortion;
24 that we're fined five hundred dollars for
25 not doing our Union duty. Well, that's a

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2 violation of the Constitution, to my
3 understanding, because the Constitution
4 states no more not in excess of three
5 hundred dollars.
6 That McCarron is definitely not an
7 independent investigator. He does not
8 adhered to any confidential, he informs
9 the District Council officers and
10 employees of names and information
11 provided confidentially; That Thomassen
12 removed the six-month rule and violated
13 the consent decree and was found in
14 contempt of court for that. That our work
15 list has been rigged many times, that the
16 evidence of abuse the system and operators
17 continues.
18 That McCarron, Thomassen, Shiel,
19 Leary, Callahan, and many other District
20 Council employees and Local officers knew
21 that Forde used drugs, in particular
22 cocaine and marijuana; that the
23 supervision, is supposed until at least
24 August 2010, just before the election for
25 General President. I don't want it to

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2 last that long, and I want to talk about
3 the part of the plan, of keeping Thomassen
4 at the District Council.
5 That Spencer says he has the
6 interests of the members at heart, but in
7 my opinion, he's shown the opposite
8 publicly. Now, I appreciate his testimony
9 yesterday, which was very informative, and
10 I wished he would give that information to
11 us on at least a frequent basis so I
12 wouldn't form the opinions that I have.
13 Because he's appointed Mike Forde in the
14 157 trusteeship as assistant supervisor.
15 That was a mistake to me. Now, he's
16 appointed Thomassen as assistant
17 supervisor of the District Council. It's
18 unfathomable to choose Thomassen as
19 assistant supervisor. But Spencer has
20 told me that Thomassen makes no decisions
21 and any decision that's come from the
22 District Council is from him personally.
23 So that's a little helpful, but
24 still, Thomassen should not have any
25 position, not be assistant supervisor, and

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2 he should be put to the side and referred
3 to when needed, if anything about the
4 District Council needs to be known.
5 That, I believe the outcome of this
6 supervision has already been decided even
7 before the supervision hearing was put in
8 place, that it took almost -- i t took over
9 two months from the time that we were put
10 in supervision to have this hearing, that
11 we were only given notice about a week, a
12 week-and-a-half to know about the Javits
13 Center hearing and that it's a difficult
14 place to get to for most.
15 The needlessness of the majority of
16 District Council vehicles, the excess of
17 spending on hotels, food and drink of
18 members, at the members' expense, the
19 cronyism and nepotism, ineptness and
20 corruption throughout the District Council
21 and the affiliated locals, and in
22 particular, that Leary and District
23 Council execs Forde, Thomassen and Shiel
24 somehow failed to detect and remedy that
25 two representatives and the business

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2 manager of Local 157 have not completed
3 their activity sheets in nearly three
4 years, and that's written, that's in the
5 testimony of the 157 hearing, where Leary
6 said that Callahan came to him and stated
7 that the business sheets were not filled
8 out in nearly three years.
9 Now, as Director of Operations, how
10 do you not catch that? I can understand a
11 week, maybe a month, you're a little busy.
12 Three years? How does the District
13 Council get behind three years and not
14 notice that? That Local 157 is singled
15 out in 157 trusteeship, that there was --
16 it was planned between Forde, Thomassen
17 and Shiel to get rid of what they viewed
18 as competition for District Council
19 elections.
20 And given time, if not already
21 proven, I'm going to prove all I have to
22 say.
23 Now, I know we're not here for that,
24 as Chairman Draper stated multiple times
25 yesterday. The purpose of this hearing is

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2 to hear what the members of the Local
3 Unions affiliated with the District
4 Council have to say as to why the
5 supervision should continue.
6 Now having attended the previous
7 Forde hearings, I missed most of the
8 Forde -- but I know much of what I
9 originally had to say Mr. Newkirk had
10 stated yesterday. He summarized it
11 exceptionally well in the first section.
12 I wouldn't restate and continue with the
13 multitude, and this is more reasons why
14 the supervision should continue.
15 However, the supervision should not
16 last for years like it had the last time.
17 I think it was three years or more? I
18 forget the exact timing of the last one.
19 I won't allow that. So what I will do is
20 tell you what's required to end this
21 supervision, in a way that will unlikely
22 ever require another supervision.
23 The first is knowledge. The only way
24 any group of people can sustainably and
25 honestly self-govern is by making

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2 decisions based upon timely; accurate
3 information. The District Councilor any
4 other organization will never be operated
5 sustainably and honestly for the benefit
6 and betterment of its members unless
7 timely, accurate information is provided
8 openly and without distortion to its
9 membership.
10 Our organizations, namely District
11 Council, the Local Unions, all the
12 councils and the UBC must be transparent
13 to us, the members. There must be full
14 disclosures of activities and financings
15 of our District Council and Local Union
16 representatives and those organizations
17 themselves.
18 The second part is systems. We need
19 to have systems that protect, prevent, and
20 notify and remedy incompetence and
21 corruption as it occurs.
22 Now, I'm at a loss to understand why
23 it's taken us since the inception of the
24 District Council to put systems like this
25 in place. Now, we should have a hundred,

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2 over a hundred and something years, to
3 understand why something occurs and to
4 solve it, and that it should not continue
5 to occur at the level it does. But it
6 does continue to occur, because we're not
7 informed about nearly anything that
8 happens until we get our Carpenters
9 magazine, which is basically a fluff
10 piece. It's propaganda. It's feel-good
11 stories which I do agree are needed. But
12 it doesn't give us any real information
13 about our problems.
14 Letting us know about our problems,
15 we can come up with solutions. But if we
16 don't know what our problems are at home,
17 and we don't get any information about it,
18 there's no way we can solve our problems.
19 We'll always be in the dark. And that's
20 not acceptable to me.
21 We need to have information in a
22 timely, accurate manner and that's the
23 only way we're going to be able to
24 self-govern ourselves.
25 I thank you for your time.

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1 Testimony - William Davenport
2 (Applause. )
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. William
4 Davenport?
5 WILLIAM D A V E N P 0 R T , having been
.6 dUly sworn, testified as follows:
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you want to enter
8 this in as evidence?
I
9 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay, I'm in receipt
11 of a document. It's entitled, "Judge
12 Continues Oversight of Carpenter Union,"
13 is that it?
14 THE WITNESS: Yes, that was a New
15 York Times article, sir, I believe in
16 August of '08.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. I will mark
18 that Exhibit number 8 -- hold on. Okay,
19 that will be marked Exhibit number 8.
20 Your name was?
21 THE WITNESS: Okay, good afternoon,
22 Brothers and Sisters. My name is William
23 Davenport. I'm a member of Local Union
24 608 since 1983. I started as a first-year
25 apprentice. I came here -- I've run for

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2 Union election against incumbent slates
3 and some people, they call me a dissident.
4 I'm not a dissident. Nine out of 11
5 localS last time ran unopposed. I'm an
6 opposing candidate. P.J. McGuire was a
7 dissident, you know, George Washington was
8 a dissident --
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Just a little bit slow
10 down.
11 THE WITNESS: Okay. You know,
12 P.J. McGuire didn't agitate, agitate,
13 agitate. And it seems if we cannot
14 express Union democracy in this District
15 Council for a long time, when nine out of
16 eleven locals had elections that were
17 unopposed. When I ran for office, and I
18 had the right to make a speech, I was
19 heckled, I was assaulted, I was called a
20 child molester. A guy threw a sneaker at
21 me and then after the meeting, I was
22 suckerpunched and knocked unconscious, and
23 guys try to stomp on my head, and two
24 retarded Brothers jumped in and saved me
25 from, I had a concussion.

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2 Nothing was done to these guys. My
3 assaulter, whose name I'm not sure of
4 because it's hearsay, but he confessed to
5 Mr. Callahan's office. Mr. Callahan did

6 nothing. You know, because my speech was
7 interrupted, they allowed me a special
8 meeting where I did make a speech, but
9 this is unacceptable behavior.
10 I was playing with my life for
11 running for office, and, you know, I'm a
12 good standing member. I believe in
13 unionism and I've done nothing to go
14 against this organization, but I was
15 assaulted and nothing was done. And the
16 whole -- that was in front of the whole
17 608 body, okay? And that pretty much, you
18 can read that article.
19 But another problem I have is, we
20 have a lot of these Union officials are
21 collecting, they are on the tools pension,
22 which I believe is in violation of section
23 31D, page 33, which states that you can't
24 be on the UBC pension, but if in the
25 course of your term, you retire, you

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2 cannot rerun.
3 Now, if you can't get a UBC pension,
4 what are you talking about applying for
5 another pension? And of course I was
6 ruled against it at the election committee
7 thing, and there was even a retired member
8 on the election committee, which is a
9 violation of the Constitution, and I did
10 bang it up all the way to Washington and
11 they said I was wrong, and I referred, you
12 know, I spoke to three attorneys about it
13 and they all agree with me.
14 I don't have a lot of money, I
15 couldn't fight it further, so I believe,
16 you know, we violated our own
17 Constitution, 31D, on page 33 in the
18 little book.
19 The numbers we should probably have,
20 it seems that we're not the Carpenters
21 Union, we're the business agent and golf
22 outing Union. 2007 under the --
24 bit.
25 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. In the 157

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2 hearings, it came out that the 157
3 delegates had a $27 outing schedule. Now,
4 the not exclusive to that Local. All the
5 locals attend these. We have eleven
6 locals, eleven golf outings, District
7 Council golf outings. We have all kinds
8 of association golf outings and charity
9 golf outings. We've got building trades
10 golf outings, you know, it's 27 days a
11 year, some of these guys go to golf
12 outings. And we pay for them. We pay for
13 their green fees. It's ridiculous.
14 And we have, right now, I got a
15 letter today. My number is 43-something.
16 4,300 and something. We've got guys on
17 this out-of-work list from, you know, it
18 takes a year to get a job with the way the
19 list runs. We used to have a 50-50 rule
20 which was gutted by some drug addicts. Do
21 you believe the hall, Thomassen, they sold
22 out to the contractors and now we're the
23 contractors Union.
24 Used to be, you know, we don't expect
25 12 months a year work because we're

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2 carpenters and we understand the
3 seasonality of what we do, but we
4 certainly would like nine months a year.
5 We'd like medical coverage, which you need
6 to do a thousand hours. We got guys that
7 don't have medical coverage. Thousand
8 hours. You can't get a thousand hours.
9 That's a disgrace. And then we have some
10 guys making three thousand hours.
11 On certain jobs, you need certain
12 security clearance, and the business agent
13 didn't tell the general membership. They
14 only told their friends, like in the World
15 Trade Center or in the UN job, the UN
16 security clearance can take anywhere from
17 two to six weeks. So what certain
18 business agents were doing was giving the
19 heads-up to the guys, "Fill out this
20 presecurity thing," so when the job became
21 available, they were already cleared.
22 The regular guy would have to wait on
23 the list an additional six weeks to
24 actually get to the job after being out
25 for many, many months. The World Trade
;.
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1 Testimony - Wi11iam Davenport
2 Center, they were given out the security
3 clearance way in advance, and it was --
4 seemed weird, why was a11 certain guys,
5 you know, that were down there, and no one
6 e1se was down there? Because it just came
7 out. They just put it in the magazine,
8 maybe someone wi11 correct that -- but
9 this is the kind of nonsense that goes on,
10 that certain peop1e get b1essed and others
11 don't.
12 I hate to go against these guys, but
13 the Javits Center is a good 1ocation to
14 me. We bui1t this p1ace. Union
15 carpenters bui1t this p1ace. We're right
16 now bui1ding the 7 train station. Maybe
17 next time you come is to Manhattan, you
18 can take the train here. The buses run
19 here. It's in the midd1e of the New York
20 City. That is the Javits Center. This is
21 one of the biggest convention centers in
22 the wor1d and it's not that hard to get
23 to. I disagree with that point of some of
24 these guys. But I disagree with a 10t of
25 their other stuff. I know John Cave11i.

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2 Every time I call him for a job to check
3 on my Union, that guy was pretty much
4 always there the same day. Sometimes, the
5 next day. But guys in his Local, I've
6 never seen them respond to a phone call.
7 They are very polite on the phone. They
8 never show up to the job to check on
9 anything.
10 The non-Union is killing us. Even
11 today in the paper, Mr. Mahoney, who is
12 one of the biggest non-Union companies,
13 has had seven names in maybe the last five
14 years, is selling like phony OSHA cards
15 and stuff, and we backed Bloomberg, and he
16 does nothing about that. There's plenty
17 of work out there in the City but i t seems
18 that more and more is becoming non-Union,
19 and these guys are playing golf 27 days
20 out of the year.
21 We also have, they go on, building
22 trades conventions in February where they
23 bring like 230 officials down there.
24 Schoolteachers, benefit funds people,
25 their girlfriends, their wives. And then

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2 they have a golf outing down there in the
3 middle of the week, which costs like
4 $60,000 and they are all golfing in
5 Florida in February, while we've had a
6 constant three thousand members out these
7 five years.
8 I don't really see the need to golf
9 when there's a building trades convention
10 with themselves. It makes no sense. This
11 is just some of the petty stuff but i t
12 adds up. The members, we're tired -- the
13 reason there's no one here because most
14 people are afraid to speak. You stand up
15 in a meeting, they will shout you down.
16 I've been threatened with my life for
17 raising my hand at the meeting. I was
18 threatened with my life because I ran for
19 office.
20 But I don't care. I'll run again and
21 again because I will not lay down. He
22 didn't get this many votes, but you know,
23 I'm not a dissident, I'm a Union
24 carpenter. I'm a hardworking man, and
25 I've seen the corruption. We knew, you

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2 know, in hearsay in the bars and stuff, we
3 knew what was going op with these
4 companies, Tri-Built, L&D, you know, we
5 knew this stuff was going on. But nobody
6 did it. Walter Mack. We need to bring
7 back Mr. Mack. Mr. Callahan?
8 Mr. Callahan, his preemployment paperwork
9 stated he never had any business dealings

.
10 with O'Dwyer & Bernstein. Back in the mid
11 '70s, Paul O'Dwyer, the father of Paul
12 O'Dwyer, referred Mr. Callahan to handle a
13 case of frozen assets for the Shah of
14 Iran. He says he forgets he was
15 representing the Shah of Iran.
16 If you're familiar with lawyers, they
17 refer jobs to other lawyers. They get
18 compensated for that. So this guy forgot
19 that the Shah of Iran, I assume he had
20 many millions of dollars frozen and this
21 guy got that job from Paul O'Dwyer, he
22 forgot to put that on the paperwork. So
23 there was some kind of connection prior.
24 You know, when we caught it. Later on, he
25 said, "Well, it was thirty years ago. I

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1 Testimony - Wi11iam Davenport
2 forgot."
3 I wou1d think, me, persona11y, if I
4 represented the Shah of Iran, I think I
5 wou1d remember that for the rest of my
6 1ife, whether it was thirty years, five
7 years or a hundred years. So this man was
8 caught in a 1ie right off the bat.
9 The u.S. Attorney's office made a
10 motion to remove him because of
11 incompetence and the judge ru1ed against
12 them. But the judge was hired in 1976
13 with Gera1d Ford, so I'm assuming he's a
14 strong Repub1ican. I don't know
15 persona11y, but maybe he's not in favor of
16 unions. I'm not sure. But I actua11y
17 testified, the judge seemed 1ike a sharp
18 man but he seems, he's in no hurry to ru1e
19 on carpenter issues, and the 50-50 thing,
20 it's going on for years.
21 We've been in consent decree I
22 be1ieve going on 17 years now, and I've
23 been in the Union 27. It's 1ike 60
24 percent of my career we've been under
25 supervision for a11eged Mafia ties. I

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2 mean, this is what's going on. And these
3 guys that got arrested, the government
4 came out again and said they were mob
5 associates from different families.
6 And what has changed in 16 years?
7 You know? What has changed? We've had
8 business agents beaten up, stabbed.
9 People come and go. Me, I'm staying.
10 I've got nowhere to go. I'm a carpenter.
11 I got a high school education. I have
12 nowhere to go. Stuck here.
13 But this is my city, and I'm staying,
14 and we do need supervision. Tell you the
15 truth, I say you should fire half of these
16 guys, the Unity Team should all be fired.
17 Everyone who was with Mike Forde is a
18 crook. When I ran for District Council
19 Vice-President, at one of the meetings I
20 said to Pete, you know, Mike, he came to
21 the meeting, made a speech, you know, this
22 guy, he's your friend, he needs help. He
23 needs to get help." He said, "I know."
24 And the drugs, you know, that's kind
25 of a personal thing, drugs and alcohol, I

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2 think these guys need help, but I don't
3 think they need 28-day rehabs. Some of
4 these guys doing 40, 50 lines of cocaine
5 or marijuana, they need to go away for a
6 year for rehab. I don't think they are
7 capable of doing their job. Myself, I'm
8 familiar with these studies. These guys
9 are serious alcoholics and addicts. They
10 were running the school. We have a school
11 down there where they found a whole bunch
12 of drugs. The administrators of the
13 school were on drugs.
14 This is ridiculous. The
15 administration of the school should be
16 removed. The whole school should be
17 removed, the administration, not the
18 teachers. The administration should be
19 removed because they were having parties
20 when the school was closed, prostitutes,
21 and it was like a big party down there, a
22 frat house. I mean, everyone knows this
23 stuff, you know, and no one's done
24 anything about it.
25 You know, I don't know, they went

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2 down there, they found a little bit of
3 drugs, but that's just, you know, they
4 were a clean house pretty much after that,
5 and these guys who failed drug tests after
6 having, they had a six-week heads-up that
7 they were going to be tested, these guys
8 are hard core drug addicts. They couldn't
9 clean up in six weeks. You know, those
10 guys shaved their head, the body waxes and
11 stuff, so they have the hair samples.
12 This is an embarrassment.
13 When I read the newspaper and I see
14 "The Corrupt Carpenters Union," I'm
15 embarrassed because I'm a proud Union
16 member. You know, when people ask me what
17 do you do, I don't say I'm a carpenter. I
18 say I'm a Union carpenter. That's what I
19 say, you know?
20 But I seen the City, right down the
21 corner, Sheraton Hotels, Hilton hotels,
22 building non-Union, 20, 30, 60-storey
23 buildings, and these guys were at the helm
24 for the last nine years, and I blame them
25 directly. And I stand on that, and thank

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1 Testimony - Wayne Martin
2 you for coming to New York City.
4 testimony.
5 (Applause. )
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Wayne Martin?
7 WAYNE MAR TIN , having been duly sworn,
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Good afternoon, Wayne.
10 What Local are you from?
13 testimony.
14 THE WITNESS: I'm going to be very
15 short and brief because what I have to say
16 is very, very important. I've been Union
17 for the past twelve years. Things of
18 which I've seen going on, I'm not happy
19 with it. Number one, they put anyone on
20 the out-of-work list, sometime, he doesn't
21 hear from them, you have to go for the
22 shaper jobs. The job you went to, they
23 ask your UBC number, you give it to them.
24 Soon after, you haven't heard anything.
25 But the meaningful thing important

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2 here is about the vacation.
3 Everybody who works is entitled to
4 vacation. And I figure that during your
5 vacation, you must get all your money,
6 whatever it is, because you're worked
7 hard, you're entitled to it. What they
8 have done, we have two separate things:
9 First, one percent deduction plus an
10 additional assessment.
11 Okay, I know that the district have
12 their bills to pay. Okay, I'm
13 satisfactory with the one percent they are
14 taking off my vacation, too, but the
15 additional assessment, I want to let them
16 know what that additional assessment is,
17 and what are the purpose for it. That is
18 the most important thing I'm talking
19 about, that additional assessment.
20 Because nothing in the written
21 permission of the additional assessment,
22 nobody knows exactly where the money is
23 going. No nobody knows, and that is very
24 important.
25 Thirdly, they sent the blue card and

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2 that blue card states if you do not sign
3 that blue card, you do not get your
4 vacation check. No one in this
5 organization should threaten anybody that
6 worked hard and tirelessly for their
vacation money to have to go through any
8 problems to get it. It is unfair to the
9 workers. I thank you very much.
10 (Applause. )
12 testimony. Tom Vivolo? Tom here? Ray
13 Davis?
14 RAY D A V I S , having been duly sworn,
17 Brothers and Sisters. My name is Ray
18 Davis, Local 608, UBC number 6302 554.
19 I would like to bring because it's a
20 very tough, about this who card and
21 everything like that. However, I have a
22 present grievance, which I was being
23 dispatched to a certain job, which was
24 Yankee Stadium. However, as a steward I
25 do board meetings and pitched in even more

-
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1 Testimony - Ray Davis
2 than what I am supposed to do, such as
3 picketing. However, I went to this
4 meeting of 608, and while working at
5 Yankee stadium, I went to the meeting
6 before the meeting start, right before,
7 there was conversation going on. So I was
8 listening.
9 This guy was saying that he heard
10 that the business agents going to send the
11 next Brother to the job, which I don't
12 'want to call his name now, usually I can,
13 and I said, listen, so the guy said,
14 "Well, the steward's already here. Which
15 company you're going to work for?" He
16 said -- the GC was Athena FS Solution.
17 Athena Solution. So I said -- I went
18 back, I didn't say nothing. So then, the
19 foreman, because they had to match the
20 Foreman from California, which was Athena,
21 with the Local foreman from 608, so that
22 things would go right. However, he told
23 me, you know, the dispatch, he won't
24 be -- --
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay, hold on. He

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2 can't understand what you're saying.
3 THE WITNESS: I'm getting to the
4 point.
6 THE WITNESS: I said, "What's that,
7 you're working hard here and I don't see
8 anybody" --
9 THE CHAIRMAN: All right, slow down.
10 THE WITNESS: He said -- I said,
11 "We're working hard here, I don't see now,
12 anybody being, I mean, being replaced or
13 removed. " He said, "Well, you know, the
14 business agent said, you know, there's a
15 guy in, you can remove him." I said,
16 "Under what circumstances?" However, .
17 after that day, the business agent here
18 was in charge of Yankee Stadium. Had a
19 meeting, I said, "What is this all about?"
20 He said I'm not following rules and I'm
21 not working hard enough. I said, "Who
22 said that?" He said the foreman. I said,
23 "Which foreman?" He said the foreman that
24 was being in placed there by the Local.
25 So I said, "Call the general foreman."

.

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2 And on my performance, he came down and
3 said, not knowing what was going on, "The
4 man is okay. He's working hard." I said,
5 "Well, I'd like to go report." He said
however I want to get to the poiht.
7 The following day, there was this guy
8 who said he was going to be here, came on
9 the job. So I said, "Oh, you're the guy
10 who was supposed to replace me." He came
11 on the job and the guy from out of town,
12 who doesn't know better, when I didn't
13 work for six weeks, and they kept the
14 meeting so I said, "I'm not going to
15 remove that guy." I heard that when your
16 friends were saying that business agent
17 was going to send you, business agent
18 said, actually, if I said that, I -- I
19 heard it with my own ears, but the guy is
20 not moving that we're talking about,
21 because I didn't know. So I said, this is
22 a production -- went on and on until the
23 guys in the job started to abuse me, and
24 nothing happened. I was being terminated
25 eventually. I filed a grievance, and

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2 this -- however, two hearings went by and ...
3 they didn't come. So eventua11y they came
4 to the 1ast one.
5 When I bring up the point with the
6 corruption and what the business agent was
7 doing, and the company, they 1eft a11
8 the PC come over in my face as though he
9 want to fight. So I said to him, the
10 hearing officer, "Mister, you see the
11 arrogance, what is happening with Loca1
12 608? I'm bringing out the truth and the
13 guy 1eaves his seat and come over."
14 I just want to bring this to the
15 1ight, what is taking p1ace. Peop1e who
16 are supposed to represent you, as the
17 business agent, I am the eye, the ear,
18 shop stewards, a11 shop stewards are the
19 eye and the ear of the job, and I figure
20 that they shou1d be represented better by
21 this Union, and the jurisdiction.
23 testimony.
24 (App1ause. )
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Gauntnatt H01nass?

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1 Testimony - Gauntnatt Holnass
2 GAUNTNATT H 0 L N ASS , having been
3 dUly sworn, testified as follows:
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Good afternoon.
5 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon.
7 from?
10 THE WITNESS: Local 08. I've only
11 been in the Union approximately eleven
12 years. But I can say that I've been
13 around different companies, and I see a
14 lot of stuff that goes on. And one
15 particular incident that happened to me a
16 few years back that I, you know, just
17 keep, you know, seeing over and over, is,
18 at one point my name was very low on the
19 list, and I was
20 THE CHAIRMAN: You're speaking about
21 the out-of-work list?
22 THE WITNESS: Yes. I was -- my name
23 was very low on the list and I was called
24 by a certain business agent and I was told
25 that I should take my name off a certain

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2 list and put it on another list. But at
3 the time when it happened, I was under the
4 impression that maybe, you know, there's
5 something going on that, you know, I
6 wasn't aware of everything, all the ins
7 and outs, and I took my name off thinking,
8 okay, well, maybe it's going to happen
9 that I'll get a good job or something like
10 that.
11 I ended up getting called and I was
12 sent out on a one day job. And
13 eventually, I called the business agent
14 and I was asking, you know, what was this
15 all about? Because I was trying to, you
16 know, I wasn't fully aware of exactly how
17 things work.
18 So after that, you know, they told me
19 to just put my name back on the list but
20 then I realized, after I started getting
21 more and more information and getting more
22 involved and finding out the way things
23 really run, that it was done in order for
24 my name to be taken off the list just so
25 someone else could get the job. And

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2 little by little, I keep seeing these
3 things happening because, my understanding
4 is that a lot of guys get oalled out for
5 jobs based upon particular information
6 that they put as far as on their
7 portfolio.
8 For example, if you want someone to
9 get called out on a job, like he's a
10 friend of yours, you may tell him to put
11 60 hours overtime for a job, for example,
12 when there's no such thing. But at the
13 same time, for him, in the computer, his
14 name is there. All they have to do is
15 call in, say, okay, the oompany requires
16 someone with the 60 hour OSHA, nine times
17 out of ten, your name is the only one
18 going to pop up, you're going to get that
19 job.
20 And I realize after a while that
21 something like that happened to me, why my
22 name was bumped, why the person asked me
23 to do that. And I started thinking, okay,
24 I guess these guys, these -- I would see
25 corruption going on, but there was nothing

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2 I could do at the time about it.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: When did you say that
4 occurred?
5 THE WITNESS: It happened
6 three-and-a-half years back.
7 THE CHAIRMAN:_ Okay.
8 THE WITNESS: Also, what I want to
9 find out is, as far as people running for
10 office, you know, certain executive
11 positions, can there be term limits placed
12 in order to rotate guys so you can have
13 less chances of people having, fall into
14 the crack of corruption? I mean, i t just
15 seemed like a back-and-forth.
16 The way things are run right now,
17 where a group of guys are in, this one at
18 the top or maybe two guys, maybe they get
19 replaced because of something they found
20 out, but you can't tell me that you have
21 nine guys work in one room, two people are
22 always doing this and doing that, and then
23 the rest of the guys have no idea what is
24 going on? So it's a revolving door. Just
25 like these two guys are gone and then

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2 whoever is next, they put two more there,
3 ended up back to whatever i t is, it's the
4 same thing over and it's like a cycle.
5 And this is getting ridiculous.
6 I mean, we're the ones who are
7 working. I can understand they have a job
8 to do, yes. But if they are not doing i t
9 in the correct way, then they should go.
10 And there has to be a way where, if
11 there's elections or certain things that
12 could happen, that could be a time limit
13 set were there have to be elections where
14 guys can either vote against them or, for
15 example, when they got like -- why is i t
16 guys aren't running as independents and
17 then put together as one unit? We need to
18 get rid of the slate. Because nine times
19 out of ten, when someone voted for, if
20 this person is, for example, President,
21 and you're going to vote, nine times of
22 ten, you may check one, two, three, four,
23 right down the line. For what reason?
24 People aren't thinking. They see
25 this guy, I'm going to vote for him, they

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2 vote for anybody. If you don't -- if you
3 know this guy isn't doing his job, and
4 doing something that you're aware of, why
5 vote for him, just to vote? Are we just
6 stupid, are we just naive? I'm not -- for
7 the
9 bit, okay?
10 THE WITNESS: I remember the last
11 election we had, you know, in the District
12 Council election, and I was with a few
13 friends of mine, you know, trying to get
14 guys to vote for them just to create, you
15 know, a little opposition against the guys
16 that are in office.
17 I mean, because that's the only way
18 you can get things to work, because you
19 can't have one set of people always given
20 out the orders. We are have to have
21 opposition, one way or the other. And if
22 you don't create it, guys are going to
23 come out on the vote? I'm not getting it.
24 You have the right to vote, these guys
25 don't do anything. Exercise your right.

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2 But these guys do not. I mean, I'm at
3 different jobs, I talk to guys, "Come out
4 and vote, are you going to the meeting?"
5 "I don't want to do that." When something
6 happens, then they turn around and say,
7 then they ask them, "Did you go down and
8 vote?" "No, I didn't." So what are you
9 complaining about?
10 I mean the percentage of the members
11 that are in the know, we should get a much
12 better turnout than we have right now. I
13 think maybe the last election was like a
14 thousand guys came out to vote or
15 something like that, when we have so many
16 thousands of members? I'm not getting it.
17 I don't know, honestly speaking, you
18 know, usually I'm talking, I don't always
19 talk like this, because I get a little too
20 heated, you know, and I say things, maybe
21 the way I'm expressing myself is not the I
22 what I want to, honest. But the just like
23 the Brother was saying at first when he
24 was here saying, all guys used to come to
25 him because he's a tough guy. I'm a smart

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2 guy but I know I'm tough, and I'm not
3 afraid of doing whatever I have to do to
4 get what I have to do, if that's the way
5 i t comes out. But the bottom line is -- ..
6 maybe I'm talking a little too much, but
7 I'll -- I'm sorry.
8 As far as Pete Thomassen, I mean, I
9 was told pretty much that he was found in
10 contempt for giving away pretty much the
11 companies' right to request guys. I've
12 been in jobs and I see the same set of
13 guys working over and over. And I'm like,
14 we call this "Brother." Okay? A
15 Brotherhood. We have one set of guys work
16 continuously when one set of guys stays on
17 the list. And I'm like, what am I missing
18 here?
19 Guys wait months and months and
20 months of time before they get called up
21 on a job and guys can go from this job to
22 that job, work here during the day, go
23 there on overtime. This is ridiculous.
24 I mean, I work. I'm not talking
25 about my -- I'm a certified steward. I

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2 pretty much always worked, but I come
3 across guys who are constantly complaining
4 and saying these things and nothing is
5 being done about it. This is a bunch
6 of -- it's a big joke. If guys aren't
7 given the same opportunity to go out and
8 work, it's not working. It is just not
9 working, and the companies, why is i t that
10 it seems like the companies are actually
11 running the Local as opposed to the Local
12 itself? I'm not getting that. What am I
13 missing here? Is this a Union or what?
14 I mean, honestly I have a lot of
15 stuff in my head, but -- you know what? I
16 think I'll leave it.at that. I'm going to
17 end up saying stuff I don't want to say.
20 (Applause. )
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Patrick Bebers?
22 PAT RIC K B E B E R S , having been duly
24 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon.

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1 Testimony -Patrick Bebers
2 from?
4 THE CHAIRMAN: 1536?
5 THE WITNESS: Yes, 1536.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay, go ahead and
7 give your testimony.
8 THE WITNESS: Okay. I want to say
9 good afternoon to the Sisters and Brothers
10 here in the Union. We have obligations.
11 First thing I want to say is, there's
12 a lot of back-and-forth going on, and it's
13 understandable. I want to give it some
14 context, so it's all clear.
15 We're at war. And it's bad when we
16 were at war with each other because it
17 makes it hard for us to deal with the war
18 that's going on without, the non-Union
19 sector. It's a war against poverty, or
20 people wanting to have a certain standard
21 of living that's acceptable.
22 Residential, we know what the deal
23 is. There are agreements being made on
24 the residential end. Commercial, where
25 the bennies, benefits, have been scaled

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1 Testimony - Patrick Bebers
2 back, it's been agreed upon not by the
3 rank-and-file but by leadership. Benefits
4 are being scaled back, our hourly wage is
5 being scaled back. And that's supposed to
6 be in our best interests? That's what we
7 were told. Because like I say, it's a war
8 going on. The non-Union sector is

..
9 charging less money for jobs and we're
10 trying to compete with that. That's just
11 to give a little context that there's a
12 war going on.
13 Now to the meat of it. I'm a
14 certified shop steward myself out of 1536.
15 And I went out sometime in 2008, stating
16 that 2009, January 1st, every job was
17 supposed to have a shop steward on it.
18 Now, I go to meetings when I can. And
19 when I say that I can, I mean that we're
20 encouraged to go to meetings but we're
21 also encouraged to attend classes and some
22 classes, of course, you end up in conflict
23 with the meetings.
24 And also, we're encouraged to attend
25 university, to go to college and better

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1 Testimony - Patrick Babers
2 ourse1ves. Peter McGuire said educate,
3 organize and educate. That's what he
4 said.
5 Now, first thing, you can't organize
6 anything if you're not educated. And he
7 wasn't ta1king about the degree type
8 education. In my persona1 opinion, even
9 though that's a he1p, it's good to have
10 guys on the front 1ine with your Union
11 book who happen to be attorneys, who wi11
12 go to bat with you or who wi11 go in there
13 and fight a good fight for you. It's good
14 to have guys in 1eadership 1ike that.
15 But educating means as rank-and-fi1e,
16 just knowing how to do your job. I want
17 to say this: I've been in meetings
18 whether the room has been -- I'm
19 origina11y from Louisiana. I got pushed
20 out of Louisiana because of Hurricane
21 Katrina. I observed the socia1 things is
22 just a 1itt1e bit different. Even in
23 meetings where you come to the meeting and
24 you might recognize two or three guys, but
25 I'm going to say a word that you haven't

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2 heard before, the love in the room,
3 because that's what gives unity, it's not
4 because we all signed up and said we're
5 UBC. That's not where unity comes from.
6 Just because we have a card. Just because
7- you pay the dues. That don't mean that
8 you automatically are a member at heart,
9 is what I'm talking about.
10 When you leave the room and haven't
11 met anybody new, or you're brought on jobs
12 and you're working with ten guys and you
13 leave this job, and you don't know the
14 names of any of them, and that's one of or
15 problems with the lack of information. It
16 shouldn't happen that if you're a BA or
17 anybody refused to give us their
18 information, -that's wrong. But what I'm
19 saying is, if one Brother or Sister gets
20 it, we supposed to all have it. That's
21 what I'm talking about.
22 Now, how can we get it? How can we
23 get the information if we don't have it?
24 A lot of this information is rested and
25 vested in the company. Don't go to them.

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2 When you look a fellow carpenter,
3 carpenter.org, that's the website for the
4 Philadelphia region. And you click on the
5 history sections, it's about eleven pages
6 long and gives you a history of the UBC.
7 Not to say that New York doesn't have a
8 history section, I've read that, but I
9 want to go to this one in particular
10 because it has a direct bearing on what's
11 going on in this jurisdiction.
12 There was a conflict going on way
13 back between what they called the
14 journeymen and apprentice, and also
15 something called the master carpenter.
16 Which we don't hear that word anymore.
17 You've got apprentices, journeymen and
18 master carpenters. And what was explained
19 in the writings was that the master
20 carpenters after so many years, you can
21 achieve of certain level of what he was
22 considered a master in that particular
23 part of his trade, he would be the person
24 who actually owned the company.
25 Here's the concept: Made in the USA.

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2 We love to hear those words, but the
3 contractors, and there's nothing wrong
4 with being from somewhere else, and
5 nothing wrong with coming to the United
6 states doing business, but these big
7 contractors, some of them call the shots,
8 actually from Germany, Australia, you
9 understand? Sweden. They really don't
10 have our best interests at heart.
11 First of all, they're big business.
12 Nothing wrong with big business if they
13 are going to do Union business of course.
14 But when we go back to the history of what
15 it was as to what it is now, it was a
16 small contractor, "Hey man, you started at
17 apprenticeship school together. You made
18 your way up. Now you did what you have to
19 do and own the company."
20 Because what we're complaining about,
21 a lot of this is company issues, too. The
22 companies doing that, and why does the
23 company have so much power? This is the
24 United States. That's what is going on.
25 But who owns the company? Why is it that

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2 there's very few companies owned by Union
3 guys? And when I say Union guys, I'm not
4 talking about a guy who ran up somewhere,
5 went to another state, bought a book,
6 snuck back in, switched it to this

I·
7 jurisdiction, and saying, "Pay your Union
8 just to say I got a book." I'm not
9 talking about that.
10 I'm talking about growing right here
11 in New York. That's one of your big
12 issues. That's one of your big issues.
13 SBCs, small business contractor. It's
14 something dealing with labor, I think with
15 the Labor Management Board or something
16 like that is connected with the District
17 Council. And for two years, I've
18 inquiring, not just me, a group of guys
19 have been inquiring, "Hey, what's going on
20 with those classes to where Union
21 individuals, Union members can get the
22 proper training to go out to start their
23 own companies?"
24 They say, Well, the guys aren't
25 available now. "Oh, it costs too much."

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2 "The guys' unavailable to meet."
3 And I'm submitting that there's one
4 of the problems. We need our own
5 companies. Get on the scaffold, and
6 you've got about twelve or 16 contractors
7 delegating the work in New York? Don't
8 you think it would be feasible to have --
9 I would love to see all of them, but at
10 least half of them, or something, where
11 Union members -- after all, who knows the
12 trade like us? That's my second point.
13 Even if it's drywall, you know what the
14 requirement to have so many, you've got to
15 throw your back out and kill yourself, for
16 some companies, but other companies are
17 not quite like that.
18 Where are the Union contractors?
19 Where is the help that we need from the
20 District Council to make that happen?
21 That should be one of the biggest programs
22 running.
23 Look, if you have 25,000 members and
24 people knew that it was an honest program,
25 I'm telling you, people would participate.

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2 That's one of the reasons why people don't
3 go to vote. If you don't believe in what
4 you're going to vote about, or you don't
5 trust the system, one of the ways that
6 people show their disapproval or show they
7 want things to be better is to come out
8 now and speak now. But another way that
9 people show they are dissatisfied and
10 don't believe anymore is to not
11 participate.
12 Let me tell you something about .the
13 Jacob Javits Center. Of course, I believe
14 that if it were in the hall it would be
15 better. But you have different
16 motivations for i t not being at the hall;
17 maybe, conflict of interest, what-not.
18 But I guarantee you, if a call went out on
19 the out-of-work list, and every person was
20 on the out-of-work list, "Look, big job at
21 the Javits Center, be here today," I
22 guarantee most of the people on the
23 out-of-work list, they would have been
24 here. And that's being real. Because
25 they would see that as their interest.

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2 What I'm saying is, when it's time to
3 show up, we've got to show up, we've got
4 to be for real. Should have been here
5 today. Just calling how i t is. That
6 and that's being realistic with that.
7 As far as all the incidents that keep
8 going on, I have training in safety and
9 one of the things they use in safety is a
10 pyramid concept and what happens is, at
11 the top you have a fatality or very
12 serious incident at the point, but at the
13 bottom what builds i t up is a bunch of
14 incidents that indicates that something
15 big is coming. Now, we don't know what's
16 at the top.
17 These current scandals involve the
18 current leadership at the top. That may
19 be the top. But I doubt it, I'm hearing
20 words like "anger," consistently from
21 different people talking, to the point
22 where it's almost, you can't even express
23 yourself. At least they are here.
24 We're leading up to something that's
25 really bad. You have to remember, these

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2 are trained men and women to do their
3 jobs, and they going to feed their
4 families, whether they work in Union, and
5 they are going to do it whether they work
6 in non-Union, and the last. thing that I
7 want to see is for the people who pay
8 their dues, they get all this training
9 from the Union, and then they get so
10 ticked off so they run around and jump the
11 place. That's sad. That's a tragedy.
12 That means the Union is actually fueling
13 its own destruction.
14 And guess what happens when you get a
15 guy or a female on the other side and they
16 know the craft like the back of their
17 hand? Now the contractor plays his
18 politics 101. "Okay, we got a guy that
19 knows the UBC like the back of his
20 happened, he's a carpenter. We're going
21 to give him, we don't have insurance to
22 pay him, but I'll tell you, we'll give him
23 $80 an hour, and we'll set this guy up to
24 train all our non-Union guys, and after he
25 trains everybody in the full aspect of

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2 carpentry, we'll cut his throat."
3 That's what we're talking about when
4 I say realize that there's a war going on.
5 It's one of the issues for people that
6 don't get so angry that you go that route.
7 Another thing, coming from Louisiana,
8 and having traveled and worked in
9 different jurisdictions, I want to tell
10 the people here, just don't sit here and
11 attack that jurisdiction when there's no
12 work. Sometimes there is no work.
13 Understand that UBC card that you have is
14 good for not just New York. It's not just
15 good for the five boroughs, Jersey,
16 Connecticut. It's good throughout the
17 United States of America, and parts of
18 Canada. You've got a world to go to.
19 This is what i t means about the
20 education part of it because you're not
21 taught this, this is something you have to
22 pick up or you have to be told. Now, when
23 I go to job sites and guys are
24 complaining, I said, "Guess what, they got
25 jobs here, they got jobs there. They have

..

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2 a job going in Vegas right now. They've
3 job jobs California, jobs going right
4 now. They are hiring. These are jobs I
5 know about."
6 Sometimes you have to be willing to
7 travel, and when you travel, guess what,
8 you don't get the same rates, the highest
9 paying places. But your hours, yes, you
10 could be two hundred hours short, and
11 that's all you need, or you're a hundred
12 hours short, sure. Sometimes you're fifty
13 hours short. Go out and get your hours,
14 don't just sit there and complain.
15 You've got guys on the bench, but
16 not, not Local 1536, but guys on the
17 bench, but I had the scaffold part, a
18 things like that and which allowed me to
19 work, and I'm telling you that you can do
20 the same thing. You've got the scaffold
21 part, you know the certification that
22 you're being told to get, and you make
23 your move.
24 Another thing, I think in some way,
25 we become a little bit too specialized.

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2 Meaning that okay, all I can do is
3 drywall. That's not the only thing you
4 can do. It's all that you want to do.
5 They have the classes at the hall. I'm
6 being real with you. I'm in drywall right
7 now. I'm in house painting right now.
8 The drywall class started out with me and
9 twelve people. Now we're likely looking
10 at about eight. House painting started
11 out with about ten people. Now we're
12 looking at three on a regular basis.
13 And other people who want to but
14 can't get into class because the first or
15 second day is passed and now they are told
16 to wait a year or two, and next year comes
17 up. If we're paying the money, you should
18 be able to get into the classes. We're
19 paying dues, money is coming out, whether
20 you're paying your dues or a different --
21 the different mysterious assessments that
22 people don't know where the money's going.
23 And it is mysterious to us, because it's a
24 mistery. I'm pretty sure that the
25 District Council can, we hope, explain

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2 where all the money is coming from. But
3 I'm saying it's a mystery for us because
4 we just don't know.
5 And sometimes, when you don't know,
6 hey, you just got to ask, and that's what
7 I mean about organize and agitate. Times
8 we got to agitate the home front. If you
9 want to know what's going on with the
10 vacation, look, take a trip up there and
11 ask. Show it to them. "I don't
12 understand." "Well, I just explained it
13 to you." "Explain it to me again. I
14 don't get it. Explain it to me again. I
15 don't get it." Do what you have to do to
16 get the answers you want.
17 The next thing is us being
18 accountable for who we vote for, and this
19 is for real, when you vote a person in
20 office a lot of times we vote a person in
21 because they are telling us they are going
22 to do right by us. Okay. That's the
23 fairy tale version why we vote people in
24 office. Let us be real with each other
25 and tell us why a lot of guys and gals

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2 really voted people in office. Because
3 you were connected with the person and you
4 thought that if I'm right with him, I can
5 get to the end zone. What's the end zone?
6 Retiring and keep my benefits, I put the
7 kids through college or whatever, and I
8 can live with dignity the rest of my life.
And you're betting on that person instead

.
9
10 of betting on a system that we call the
11 United Brotherhood of Carpenters.
12 That's your first mistake. Because
13 you see anybody, we can throw names out
14 there. We can throw names out there.
15 Even McGuire, he faced scandal at a
16 certain point, powerful man but he faced
17 scandal.
18 I don't recall Jim's whole name. We
19 know about Jim. He faced scandal. The
20 Teamsters Union. Faced scandal. Then he
21 had to go. I'm telling you that to say
22 don't bet on a person, bet on the system.
23 But you've got to take your time and learn
24 the system, and I'm saying this to say, a
25 lot of people understand this to be real

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2 because the person you bet on, who you
3 thought was going to do this for you,
4 understand that the people is pulling
5 snake moves to get you jobs, because you
6 were beneficial at that particular point
7 in time, he was still snake moves.
8 Nobody makes snake moves better than a
9 snake, do you understand?
10 So guess what, when it's no longer
11 beneficial for him to make the moves for
12 you and it's time for him to snake and
13 move with somebody else, he won't call you
14 any more. Now, you mad, you want to go
15 call corruption, you want to call the
16 Feds, let's call i t in to the
17 International, when you know that you were
18 involved in i t in the first place and
19 that's one of the reasons why you've got
20 thirty guys, fifty guys, a hundred guys,
21 one guy in his pocket and nobody else
22 knows anything about it.
23 Depend on the system. The system is
24 time proven. The system works. We know
25 this. Human beings will fail you time and

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I·
2 time again. Excuse my French here, we
3 failed ourselves. So we know somebody
4 else has the potential to fail us. And
5 that's pretty much, you know, all that I
6 wanted to say, except one more thing.
7 And this is an early warning, because
8 we don't get those often usually we get it
9 when it's too late. One of the beautiful
10 things about the Union was that we always
11 see in theory the same pay at supposed the
12 skill level. And I have to put it like
13 that. We received the same pay I mean,
14 if I'm a journeyman, you're a journeyman.
15 And if I work in Manhattan and you work in
16 Queens and we're doing the same type job,
17 we're getting the same type pay.
18 Now I want to tell you what's coming.
19 We have different agreements now, and it
20 states that, hey, if you're on this job,
21 you're going to get this particular pay
22 rate. But if you're on that job, you're
23 going to get that particular pay rate.
24 Now, in theory, we did that to try to
25 save the Union and keep working. But what

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541
2 we have set up now, we've set up a
3 difference. Now the question becomes, who
4 is going to get the two dollars more on
5 the check, the two dollars less on the
6 check, the two dollars less in benefits,
7 the two dollars more in benefits? Who is
8 going to decide that? How do you decide
9 that?
10 And everyone is well aware of which
11 jobs you're going to receive your regular,
12 which is what we worked for, and who is
13 going to receive less money. How is the
14 contractor going to deal with that if he
15 has company guys or he has a particular
16 set of people that he may favor? "I'm
17 going to send these guys to my job where
18 he can get 44 an hour," where if you come
19 through the hall, we've got something for
20 you, .you get over there and you get that
21 forty.
22 You see, there's a lot of different
23 ways that we have to be careful to keep
24 your eyes open and I just want to know if
25 either District Council, or from

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2 Internationa1, what's coming down the
3 pipe1ine to dea1 with that, because that
4 the rea11y is something that was
5 unforeseen by most peop1e but now it's
6 happening and I'm going to te11 you, the
7 gap is going to get bigger and bigger
8 because, once you come to the tab1e and
9 you give it away, and they see you got it
10 in your eyes, and -- it's about staring
11 each other down. You sme11 weakness.
12 "Okay. We'11 ask for two d011ars. Next
13 week, next year, six months 1ater, we ask
14 for two more. They don't give i t to us,
15 we'11 just, hey, go non-Union. We'11 just
16 go non-Union. And bring in guys and hope
17 some of the guys cross the 1ine, and we'11
18 do i t 1ike that, and maybe we'11 go back
19 to the Union if they sett1e for four
20 d011ars 1ess."
21 So we have to watch a11 of that, and
22 1ike I said, that thing with the shop
23 steward dea1, it's a sweeping indictment
24 on the companies and the Union. One of
25 the criteria for shop stewards, you're

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2 supposed to be in the Union five years.
3 Let me tell you something. If you are
4 telling -- if you send a letter out to
5 everybody in the jurisdiction saying, hey,
6 by 2009, you have to have a shop·steward
7 on every job, and people who have been in
8 five years or more, knowing that if you go
9 to the job, you're supposed to be at the

.
10 job, and not all these shop stewards are
11 noble perfection or noble position anyway,
12 besides the benefit of haVing to be there
13 to the end, the doors, the phones should
14 have been ringing off the hook. People
15 should have been banging on the doors to
16 come in and sign up.
17 But they didn't. Because the people
18 who have been there five years or longer,
19 they had a bad taste in their mouth. But
20 now you have persons coming who have only
21 been in the Union a year. They are able
22 to take all the classes except the one
23 which is a steward class, but they need
24 security on the job, and you don't have
25 any guy who's there five years and

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2 certified, and you have to appoint
3 somebody, so now I appoint a guy where
4 op the job whose been in the Union 1ike
5 two years.
6 And 1'11 te11 you, the contractors
7 sme11 b1ood. And he sme11s b100d because
8 he can do that person, not everybody, but
9 I'm te11ing you, he cou1d take that person
10 because he has know1edge of a11 the things
11 that go on in the Union, he can twist and
12 put that person in.
13 He can te11 a guy, "Take ha1f the
14 day, go to the ha11 and go what do you
15 have to do." The guy comes back the next
16 day, or a week 1ater, and raises a
17 1egitimate issue with the man, "You can't
18 te11 me that, he was bi11ing time."
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Patrick, we're going
20 to have to sum up. we have a 10t of fo1ks
21 to hear from.
22 THE WITNESS: I just wanted the
23 peop1e to hear what I have to say, and I
24 don't want the UBC -- do what we have to
25 do to repair ourse1ves, whether it's

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2 elections or not elections, educate
3 ourselves and let's just keep pushing
4 forward against this non-Union factor,
5 thank you.
THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much.
7 We're going to take a ten-minute
8 break and then we're going to come back,
9 because we have several people to hear
10 from. When we come back, we're going to
11 have to impose a few shorter time limits
12 to make sure we get everybody that wants
13 to speak given an opportunity. Ten-minute
14 break.
15 (Recess taken.)
16 THE CHAIRMAN: If everybody will take
17 their seats, we'll get started. We've got
18 quite a few people to hear from. The
19 hearing will last till 4:30. We have to
20 close then because the court reporter has
21 a previous engagement and he has to leave
22 by 4:30.
23 A VOICE: Can't hear you.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: I know, we're trying
25 to get the mic running. Bill, you want to

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1 Proceedings
2 find the gentleman?
3 Again, I'll try to talk loud enough
4 before the guy with the mic gets here. As
5 you're called up, please try to keep your
6 thoughts and testimony as brief as
7 possible. We have, I want to hear from
8 everybody, I don't want anybody not to
9 have the opportunity, and I don't want to
10 have to keep interrupting you and tell you
11 to conclude. So I just ask you that, try
12 to keep your comments very brief and get
13 on the record what you need to get on the
14 record.
15 While we're waiting for the mic man,
16 I will call the next person up and get
17 sworn in. Noel Emanuel. Noel, you here?
18 Come on up, Noel, get sworn in, set down,
19 as soon as we get somebody to turn the mic
20 on, we'll get started.
21 N 0 E L E MAN U E L , having been duly sworn,
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Noel, just bear with
24 us for a moment 'till we get the mic on.
25 MR. MAPLES: We think it's a Union

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1 Testimony - Noel Emanuel
2 thing.
3 (A pause in the proceedings.)
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Testing, we're on.
5 Okay, Noel, will you let us know what
6 Local you're from?
7 THE WITNESS: My name is Noel
8 Emanuel, Local 157.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Go ahead Noel, talk
10 close to the mic.
11 THE WITNESS: I'm a member of Local
12 157 from 1987, and I'd just like to say
13 that I -- like many of the members, I have
14 a lot of concerns with the District
15 Council, they are supposed to be the
16 watchdogs. I mean, I -- I had a high
17 school education and some technical
18 college education. I'm not in a conflict.
19 They are the ones that are supposed to
20 take care of business. And from '87 to
21 now, I'm disgusted and really frustrated
22 with their behavior, like most of the
23 other persons here, I'm pretty sure. It's
24 becoming too much. They take care of
25 themselves, they drive around in big SUVs,

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2 and they hardly he have do their work.
3 They never, hardly ever do their work.
4 I remember at one time I was on a job
5 an Staten Island, and I see -- I note that
6 they were getting cash, they were paying
7 cash. Everybody working there was paying
8 cash. And I called the Union whistle.
9 And they would go to the job and they went
10 to the job, after I was laid off, and
11 asked for me. They wanted to talk to me
12 in person.
13 They made the company know that I --
14 I'm the one that dropped the dime on them.
15 And at the time so I lost a lot of trust.
16 It was scared shit at that time. Now,
17 there's a lot going on right now in the
18 field. There's a lot going on. Most of
19 these workers that are on the list of the
20 workers right now, they can tell you. I
21 bet there are some high numbers. The
22 numbers are practically stuck, are moving
23 very, very slow, because some guys in this
24 Union today, it's whoever they know and
25 who they call, they move from job to job.

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2 And we're not getting the work. It's
3 stuck.
4 Like one guy said before, we have
5 families, too. And they are going to
6 the -- I had a shop steward, I was a
7 foreman on a job recently in a school in
8 Queens, and just as the job was getting
9 towards the end, my shop steward left. He
10 left the job, and called me up in a couple
11 of days and told me to make his check out,
12 because he was on another job.
13 Really, that was wrong. That was
14 wrong. I mean, I know he's a shop
15 steward, but he should at least -- at
16 least spend a couple of days on. He went
17 to the job because he knew somebody.
18 Shouldn't have gone to this, and I know
19 that that was wrong.
20 We just have to look into it. It
21 needs looking into. This is definitely
22 wrong. Because most of these guys, they
23 are not working, they are here today.
24 They have been on the list for a long
25 time. The list is not moving. It's not

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2 moving. Guys call the business agent,
3 they go from job to job, earning a lot of
4 overtime. Come on, let's make it fair,
5 it's not fair. I hate to go on and on,
6 but I'll give somebody else a chance to
7 talk.
8 And also, they are supposed to be the
9 watchdog, like I said. Our co-payment
10 keeps going up. I mean, there are other
11 unions, they don't have co-payments. I
12 know they are bigger unions than us, but
13 when a man is sick, and he goes to the
14 doctor, the co-payment is too high. Who
15 is doing the negotiation with these
16 insurance companies? But I don't think
17 they are negotiating this. Our
18 co-payments are just too high. And that's
19 all I have to say.
22 (Applause. )
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Selmarin Wall? Not
24 here? Frank Strachan? Frank, are you
25 here? Please remove your hat, Frank, and

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1 Testimony - Frank Strachan
2 come up? You want to go over here and get
3 sworn in, please.
4 FRANK S T R A C HAN , having been duly
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Frank, can you tell us
.7 what Local you're from?
8 THE WITNESS: Brooklyn Local 926.
10 THE WITNESS: Two-six.
12 THE WITNESS: I want to say hi to
13 everybody that's here. I'm concerned that
14 the folks that are here, the members that
15 are here, is i t that everybody is on the
16 out-of-work list, that's why they're here,
17 or some people came from work, not here,
18 so the thing, the problem that I've seen
19 with this organization over the time that
20 I've been in the Union for the last
21 eleven, twelve years, is that the system
22 is not working, simply because some people
23 have the run of the business in the sense
24 that other people just don't get a chance.
25 I mean, you can do every training

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2 that there is in the summer, the fall,
3 whatever classes there are. But you don't
4 get no work, while there are guys working
5 night and day, round the clock, 365 days a
6 year, plus overtime. I'm saying those
7 folks that are working round the clock out
8 to pay for the folks that are not working
9 at all.
10 Medical, we should not live without
11 coverage. We should not be without
12 unemployment. We should not have to go
13 out of the Union to find work when the
14 Union is the place, when we put the Union
15 in place. I think it's wrong. And this
16 is what is really getting to me, and
17 that's why sometimes I haven't been to
18 many meetings. I should be at no meetings
19 at all but I tried to make it my duty to
20 come here today because there was an
21 incident that happened actually two years
22 ago.
23 I went to work with the Union, I came
24 back out to work -- I was running my own
25 business, hosiery -- and I was with a

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2 company called Cross Work Construction,
3 and at this very point, over 21 hours in
4 benefits that they didn't pay, they gave
5 me a wrong W-2 form with a -- with a -- a
6 W-2 form with the wrong Social Security
7 number, and I cannot claim benefit for it,
8 I cannot use it. And I've been trying up
9 to two days ago, up to this morning, I
10 called the Queens business agent and asked
11 him to contact the company to get this
12 done.
13 I spoke to someone in the company and
14 they told me there's nothing improper with
15 the pay stub that I have. I got a regular
16 pay stub, and the District Council does
17 not accept those pay stubs because of
18 the -- because it's not -- it's not
19 correct. I'm not the one that's making
20 those pay stubs up. That's the pay stubs
21 that's given to me. If somebody asked me,
22 I just came there from my UBC and I
23 present the card that was given to me from
24 this organization, and it's honored, I
25 think those pay stubs that are given from

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2 the company, regardless if it's bogus, i t
3 should be honored.
4 And to set the record straight, that
5 this cannot. be sold, you know, we can't
6 refuse this, because we have to find ways
7 and means in order for the company to
8 bring the company to justice. It's not my
9 job. You know, I think that we pay a lot
10 of
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Let me ask you a
12 question. Did you turn i t over to the
13 agent, you said --
14 THE WITNESS: I turned i t over to the
15 agent.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: What was their
17 response?
18 THE WITNESS: He's going to call the
19 guy.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. I think
21 you're going to get some action on it.
22 THE WITNESS: Right. Well, you know,
23 but it's -- you know, I'm saying that if
24 guys working, right now I cannot claim
25 unemployment, you know, and I've been in

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2 the Union over eleven years. I can't,
3 because why? I'm just not getting enough
4 time. You know, one is over here, I
5 don't -- I don't have full quarters. I
6 don't have five quarters, I'm kept back,
7 plus the people that I work with, they
8 are -- they held me back by giving me
9 wrong information, giving wrong
10 information on me so I'm stuck and I can't
11 go to work.
12 Then I have to pay Union dues, I have
13 children to feed. I mean, what is this?
14 This is a joke. As far as I'm concerned,
15 and I was -- my father was a
16 Vice-President of the Seamen and
17 Waterfront Workers Union, and I know what
18 the business is about. I've seen big men
19 come to work while young guys got work in
20 front of them. I've seen guys cry.
21 And I've asked the question, for
22 myself, just like my father asked me, up
23 to couple of years ago, am I in the Union,
24 why am I not working? I said, "Daddy, you
25 don't understand. It's not that you

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2 don't. It's that you don't know what's
3 going on."
4 Let's not make it fear, let's make it
5 right. Forget fear. Let's make it right
6 for every member that's here today, every
7 member that's not here today. Just like
8 some of the guys said, some of those
9 members did not show up because they are
10 frustrated. I show up because it's an
11 opportunity for me to give my opinions,
12 and I hope I'm not going to be suffering
13 for that. But it doesn't matter to me.
14 What matters is what's correct.
15 You know, everybody who came today, I
16 don't know how many people are here are on
17 unemployment or getting some kind of
18 benefits. I'm saying the people who,
19 right now, I just got a -- a letter from
20 COBRA saying that my hours are short. I
21 sent in for a medical dental work, the
22 company kept my medical for two months
23 before they sent i t out to the next
24 company, from one company to the other
25 company. By the time they sent it out, my

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2 insurance was gone.
3 I'm saying these people are working
4 24/7 days a week. Let them pay for the
5 ones that are not working. And then
6 you'll see some people sit back and say,
7 "You go ahead. You go ahead." People are
8 not being honest. They are not being
9 true. You know, some people just want to
10 get rich.
11 I want to work. I want to take care
12 of my family. I want to pay my bills, I
13 wanted to pay my taxes. I want to be able
14 to go on vacation, get my -- you know,
15 when I retire, I don't have nothing yet.
16 You know, some people are making millions.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay, you're going to
18 have to sum this up because we have a lot
19 of folks to hear from.
20 THE WITNESS: In other words, I --
21 the District Council needs to take some
22 serious action as far as looking out for
23 people as a whole, not just buddy over
24 here and buddy over here. The out-of-work
25 list has to be reviewed. And at this time

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2 I'm requesting people, if people are just
3 going to be requested, what about me who
4 have all the skills and have no use for
5 it? When I go to the job in the snow, you
6 know, they look at me and laugh, this guy,
7 he doesn't know what he's doing. Wrong.
8 I've got all the education to show.
9 But theres' no training on the job so
10 what is the use about all the training
11 when I'm not in the field? It goes from
12 here and it goes over there. This
13 District Council should introduce
14 something, I don't know if it's a Union
15 responsibility or the District Council
16 responsibility, to actually stop certain
17 actions like the same companies that have
18 to be running this business, and I don't
19 want to meet them. I see people who --
20 whose running this business
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay, we have to stop
22 now.
23 THE WITNESS: And that's -- that's
24 what I'm saying, but this business is, all
25 the members' business.

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1 Testimony - Matthew Tangredi
2 (Applause. )
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay, thank you for
4 your testimony. Matthew T-a-n-g, is it
5 R-e-d-i?
6 A VOICE: That's correct.
7 T-a-n-g-r-e-d-i.
8 MATTHEW TAN G RED I , having been duly
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Matthew, what Local
11 are you from?
15 Brothers, Sisters and board. I've been a
16 member in good standing for ten-plus
17 years. In the past couple of years, I
18 became a shop steward. The only problem
19 that I see right now with the out-of-work
20 list is a lot of people complaining that
21 it takes a long time to get a job.
22 Well, I've been a steward on 400
23 Fifth Avenue for a year now, and about 60
24 percent of the requests that the Union has
25 put in for people to show up, they don't

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2 even show up. So I'm trying to talk to
3 you about about a penalty for when
4 people don't show up to a job that they
5 were dispatched to. Each time a person
6 doesn't show up to a job that they were
7 dispatched to, that's eight hours of money
8 that a guy that's out of work that could
9 use that money for their family will
10 retrieve. But I've also come up here to
11 talk about good things. About our Union.
12 I've heard many of my Brothers and
13 Sisters come up here and talk bad. Well,
14 if i t was bad; we wouldn't be here.
15 (Applause.)
16 THE WITNESS: If i t wasn't for my
17 Local or District Council, I wouldn't have
18 the quality of living that I do have,
19 including benefits. Yes, you have to work
20 250 hours to receive benefits. That's not
21 such a hard thing in New York City, being
22 that New York City is built by the Union,
23 you know? We're fighting amongst each
24 other. We need to collaborate and go
25 against non-Union. That's where our fight

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2 is.
3 Everybody also forgets to remember
4 since the International was last in, we
5 built a clause of 55 and out. You can
6 retire at 55. We also put in legislation
7 to continue benefits for retirees, and if
8 it wasn't for our unions, political
9 figures in this city would not even be
10 voted in the way they are. I just want to
11 come say a few good things about my Union
12 because I love my Union and without my
13 Union I wouldn't be as strong as I am.
14 Thank you.
15 (Applause. )
17 Jose Bernard? B-e-r-n-a-r-d, Jose.
18 J 0 S E B ERN A R D , having been duly sworn,
20 THE WITNESS: My name is Jose
21 Bernard. I'm a UBC certified shop
22 steward, and I am also a 608 delegate to
23 the District Council. My opinion is that
24 we do not need to continue the
25 supervision. And I will go further than

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1 Testimony - Jose Bernard
2 that. If we go to the record, and we want
3 to -- if we go back to the recent history,
4. the reason I'm in favor, I always forget
5 that the International considered the idea
6 of getting a better supervision in New
7 York City, and changed it everyone or two
8 years, before the supervisory. Thank you
9 very much. That's my opinion.
11 (Applause. )
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Salomie Telsick?
13 SAL 0 M I E TEL SIC K , having been duly
16 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon. How
17 are you?
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Good. What Local?
19 THE WITNESS: I'm in 2027. I used to
20 be in.926. Currently, the problem that
21 I've been having -- not a problem, I
22 graduated last year as a journeywoman.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Congratulations.
24 THE WITNESS: Thank you. But while I
25 was an apprentice, the problems that I see

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1 Testimony - Salomie Telsick
2 with the apprentice is that they are not
3 being able to use their tools, especially
4 woman, especially women come on the job,
5 first thing, they put insulation on our
6 heads. That's just not right. So your
7 not getting -- you do go to school to
8 learn the skill. When you get on the job,
9 you're not be able to hold your skills,
10 and a lot of time, you have the shop
11 stewards on the job, they really don't
12 care. Not all of them. But a lot of them
13 I work with, they don't care. Okay, well,
14 these apprentices been on the job once,
15 whatever, try to work with them, so they
16 can learn the skills, because what
17 happens, when you turn fourth year, you're
18 not good, and you can't keep up with
19 production, you're gone.
20 THE CHAIRMAN' You've got to stay as
21 calm and speak into the mic, okay? Go
22 ahead.
23 THE WITNESS' So as I'm saying, as
24 when you're an apprentice, you don't get
25 to hone your skills. You go to school,

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2 they teach you. Then you come out and
3 you're just about humping insulation,
4 especially with the ladies on the job. I
5 was on the job, we had about six ladies
6 and all six was doing insulation. Come
7 on. And most of the problem is -- I'm not
8 able to, in the middle of -- I arrive, do
9 my work, what I have to do, and go home,
10 but that is something that needs to be
11 addressed, because as I keep saying, the
12 shop stewards are the eyes and ears of,
13 you know, the Union, of the District
14 Council. But who is worried about these
15 apprentices on the job, and nothing is
16 going on? Something has to be done.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: I concur.
18 THE WITNESS: Something has to be
19 done. It really is unfortunate.
20 And another thing that I have, also
21 is, I work in the drywall area and it's
22 all covered in the set amount of drywall
23 that a carpenter has to put up. Because
24 what I've been told when I came into the
25 Union was that you have to give an honest

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2 day's work. Well, is there a specific
3 number, 16, 19 --
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Not that I know of.
5 THE WITNESS: Okay, well, I would
6 like to thank you for giving me this
7 opportunity to speak. I really appreciate
8 it.
10 for your testimony. And I concur that if
11 you went through your apprenticeship,
12 you've earned the right to be a
13 full-fledged carpenter and that's what you
14 want to be.
15 (Applause. )
16 THE CHAIRMAN: And there are folks in
17 this room that are taking note of that,
18 too. Mike Mashack?
19 M I C H A E L MAS HAC K , having been duly
22 THE WITNESS: Afternoon, sir.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Could you please tell
24 us what Local you're from?
25 THE WITNESS: I'm from Local 2287.

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1 Testimony - Michael Mashack
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, go ahead.
3 Proceed with your testimony.
4 THE WITNESS: First of all, greetings
5 and I'm thankful for this opportunity to
6 address this august assembly of Brothers.
7 Just a quick background sketch. I'm
8 like second, third generation Union
9 member. My father was a shop steward,
10 although not with the Carpenters. He was
11 a brickie, and moved over to carpentry,
12 and my son is also a fourth-year
13 apprentice.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Good.
15 THE WITNESS: I am a certified
16 steward and I've been eligible in that
17 capacity for I guess about eight, nine
18 years to date.
19 There's two specific things that I
20 want to address, and one of my things is
21 like one of the aforementioned speakers
22 said, if somebody had said there was a big
23 job at the Javits Center, this place would
24 be full. I'm a little dismayed by the
25 fact that we're so underrepresented. I

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2 think there should be news cameras
3 outside. When we talk about the largest
4 construction Union in the City, having
5 some type of movement, I think that this
6 place should be full, and I want to go on
7 record saying I'm a little dismayed by
8 that and I'm going to redouble my efforts
9 to be out and more proactive.
10 As a shop steward, you know, it's
11 always been cited that we are the first
12 line of defense for the collective
13 bargaining agreement. That's not my
14 words. I got from right off the back of
15 the shop steward form and when we run into
16 difficulties in maintaining that capacity
17 of first line defender.
18 One of -- there's two problems that I
19 have. One, I was dispatched some years
20 ago, 2005, just to give you an idea of the
21 scenario, dispatched in 2005 to a job in
22 White Plains as a shop steward where we
23 were installing Trump Tower, so this was
24 like a 40-storey wood installation. I'll
25 leave the contractor nameless at this

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2 point.
3 They were delinquent on their
4 benefits. The wage portion of i t we got,
5 and on time. But the-benefit portion of
6 i t was delinquent, and at different
7 intervals in the job more than once I was
8 advised to have the guys sit down. We had
9 a crew of maybe 20, 30 guys all the time.
10 2005, this is 2009, and I'm still out
11 of 580 hours. I did a quick calculation
12 of, if I had gotten the Union money, 580
13 is 2,480, if I had gotten vacation, 508
14 times six is another 3,480. Roughly seven
15 thousand dollars of my blood, I left on
16 the table there, and I have no idea of how
17 to get that money back.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: When did that happen?
19 THE WITNESS: There happened between
20 2005-2006, and I can give you all the
21 records, details, shop steward
22 THE CHAIRMAN: You need do give them
23 to Frank Spencer and the Council.
24 THE WITNESS: At one point, I took i t
25 as just blood that I would spill on behalf

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2 of the Union, but when there's an
3 opportunity to make this public came up, I
4 said, let me just give i t another shot. I
5 did get confirmation from the benefits
6 funds that they would give me, I don't
7 know --
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Credit?
9 THE WITNESS: -- credit for the
10 pension hours but seven thousand --
11 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm sure i t was for
12 vesting purposes.
13 THE WITNESS: For vesting purposes,
14 yes. But just to give you a little sketch
15 of my losses there, at a particular time,
16 one of the funds was paying 34 percent.
17 Seven thousand dollars, I have no idea how
18 to get it back. My thought was, as a --
19 having been dispatched by the District
20 Council to perform this job, is there not
21 some liability, is there not some
22 culpability, is there not some
23 responsibility that the District Council
24 has to make sure that the shop steward
25 gets paid?

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2 The contractor actually went bankrupt
3 on the job, at let's say 11 o'clock. At
4 11:01, I went on another The
5 subsequent contractor paid me in full and
6 I got paid, but 580 hours --
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, that presents a
8 whole different arena. Bankruptcies are
9 bankruptcies.
10 THE WITNESS: I would have thought
11 there would have been some contingency
12 funds, some bonding. I would have thought
13 well before it happened, we would have --
14 this is a PLA job, I was told that there
15 was city money involved, there was other
16 ways to attach it. But for some reason,
17 when I -- when I really pursued it, and I
18 actually wrote letters to Michael Forde,
19 certified letters, I called him up every
20 day at coffee break and asked what can
21 they do about this, let me know something.
22 At some point, I was approached by
23 two fellows who told me that I really
24 needed to hush things down. Now, I know.
25 The second problem that I have is,

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2 given the circumstances at hand with
3 Michael Forde and cohorts, and my
4 understanding now is that there's five
5 shop stewards that have been indicted
6 similarly, again, being the first line
7 defense, I spoke to Denis Sheil minutes
8 ago and he told me that the legal charts
9 of the shop stewards was upwards of
10 $150,000. You know, I thought i t was like
11 15 or 20 thousand, so I was far short in
12 my estimate of what these legal fees would
13 be.
14 Now, you're innocent until proven
15 guilty. I don't know, and I don't really
16 care what they did at this point, but you
17 are innocent until proven guilty, and I
18 know people in the past have used legal
19 extortion as a way of manipulating people
20 to do things that they wanted them to do.
21 My question is simply, what facility, what
22 faculties, what is there available for a
23 shop steward in the way of some legal
24 support, when he's going for have to go
25 and face this legal monster all by

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2 himself? I mean, even if it's only 15
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Let me tell you, if
4 you're -- and we'll have to hurry through
5 this, if you're charged with a criminal
6 offense, the Union can't pay your defense.
7 THE WITNESS: Exactly.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: If you're found
9 innocent, they can go back, if they
10 choose, and pay your defense. Okay?
11 THE WITNESS: So five years later,
12 when this is finally before the bench, and
13 up until that time, I can't work for the
14 Union now, the point is simply that this
15 is a way -- it's changed the whole game of
16 being a shop steward for me, when I can go
17 to jail.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, you're not going
19 to go to jail unless you do something
20 criminally wrong.
21 THE WITNESS: Well, they can find
22 seven ways to get
23 THE CHAIRMAN: I assume that's
24 correct. Okay. I just don't know. I
25 don't have an answer for you regarding

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2 that. But -- it's not in my jurisdiction.
3 THE WITNESS: So this is the question
4 I put on the table. What remedies are
5 there for shop stewards who find
6 themselves innocent until proven guilty
7 but weighed down with $150,000 of legal
8 fees?
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Again, the law does
10 not permit the Union to pay for legal
11 defense of a criminal act. Okay?
14 THE WITNESS: Thank you for that.
15 (Applause. )
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Alan Sejourne? Alan,
17 are you here?
18 ALAN S E J 0 URN E, having been duly
20 THE WITNESS: Good evening,
21 everybody. My name is Alan Sejourne.
22 I've been a carpenter for twelve years.
23 I've come from a long line of
24 blackballing. I've been blackballed here
25 for a long time, know, for about eight

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1 Testimony - Alan Sejourne
2 years. I've dealing with racist shop
3 steward and faculty members and people who
4 currently just don't appreciate my
5 opinions and, you know, my -- my work
6 ethics.
7 But I just wanted to say that maybe
8 we should implement a device that can
9 assure people work because it's not fair
10 for somebody that's been in a Union for
11 the same amount of time to be working for
12 two, three years and then somebody else to
13 come in and only have, like, two, three
14 months or maybe a week of work. All
15 right?
16 This city is so big. I don't
17 understand how there's not enough jobs out
18 there for three thousand members, you
19 know? Everybody have their reasons and
20 their problems that they've got to deal
21 with, but for the people that are willing
22 to come to work and work hard every day, I
23 think we should have a device to where
24 everybody can at least get six months to a
25 year's worth of work in so that they can

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1 Testimony - Jay Bracey
2 pay for their benefits and their medical
3 and things of that nature.
4 Also, you know, as far as being
5 educated in the Union system, you know,
6 there's power in numbers. And there's got
7 to be a way where we can unite the people
8 to the whole cause of understanding how
9 the system works, because not everybody
10 understands what i t means to come to a
11 Union meeting. Not everybody understands
12 what i t means to receive benefits. Not
13 everybody understands that they can, you
14 know, shift their monies in different
15 areas, you know.
16 So I think there should be, like, an
17 economic workshop and, you know, other
18 devices to further educate our Union
19 members, you know. Because the more we
20 know, the better we are as a whole. So
21 that's all I have, really have to say.
22 Thank you to hearing me out.
25 (Applause. )

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2 THE CHAIRMAN: Jay Bracey? Jay here?
3 B. r a c e y.
4 JAY BRA C E Y , having been duly sworn,
6 THE CHAIRMAN: What· Local are you
7 from?
8 THE WITNESS: 926.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay, go ahead with
12 your testimony.
13 THE WITNESS: First of all a --
14 THE CHAIRMAN: You want to
15 THE WITNESS: I said first of all, I
16 didn't plan to speak today, so, but one
17 thing is --
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Got to slow down.
19 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, but they
20 talk about the jobs, they talk about the
21 50-50 rule, you know, they represented
22 Union carpenters, company men. When I get
23 to the job, they all are company men. And
24 I have to put a unit in saying
25 THE CHAIRMAN: You'll have to help

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2 here, when you say 50-50. 50-50 but all
3 of them are Carpenter Union members?
4 THE WITNESS: Right.
6 THE WITNESS: But what I don't
7 understand, how does that really work? Is
8 it really effective? You know, because
9 what I'm saying is, like, I get on the
10 job, I'm putting a "U" for Union by the
11 guy's name, but he's coming to the job
12 first day on the job with keys to the box.
13 So how do you get keys to the box if
14 you're a U.
15 So basically the 50-50 rules are
16 supposed to be improved to be better, you
17 know, so, you know, pull some guys off of
18 the list to get working, you know, make it
19 fair for everybody. I just don't see how
20 that could happen if guys are basically
21 taking their guys from one job to the
22 next.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Is that your
24 testimony?
25 THE WITNESS: Yes .

.

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3 (Applause. )
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Martin Maguire.
5 MARTIN MAG U IRE , having been duly
8 from? .
9 THE WITNESS: Martin Maguire, Local
10 Union 608.
12 THE WITNESS: Carpenter, job steward,
13 foreman, general foreman. Delegate to
14 convention in Las Vegas when the General
15 President at the time was elected. Our
16 message for -- I know a lot of people
17 would not like to say change. Change can
18 be good, but -- unfortunately, in this
19 city, there's a lot of money -- I hope
20 both today that you cannot run three terms
21 of office --
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Back off a little bit.
23 THE WITNESS: I propose that you
24 can't run for three terms of office as
25 EST. I say two, like the United States of

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2 America President.
3 (Applause. )
4 THE WITNESS: The reason being is
5 that we have a lot of sharpshooters in
6 this town who can get to people. And
7 we're all human, and I think part of the
8 reason is because of Mike Forde, which I
9 knew very well, a great man, I have to
10 say. He negotiated three contracts here
11 that was not negotiated in this city by
12 any other Union that's in it, okay?
13 I want to say I'm very sorry for Mike
14 Forde that this had to happen. I'm only
15 going on speculation. I wish him well
16 with his family and I say a prayer that he
17 be well and I feel bad that, if this
18 didn't happen, that the people around him
19 didn't see this as Brothers, and help this
20 gentleman and Brother out.
21 John Greany, business agent, I voted
22 into 608, which I knew very well from the
23 first day I came to this Local. An
24 excellent man, I saw him take contractors
25 and show them around and put guys to work.

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2 Now, that's the type of business agent I
3 want to see around this town. Okay.
4 I was a general foreman. I know some
5 of the people that come to the jobs are
6 not qualified, okay? And, we changed the
7 rules a little bit, so that a carpenter
8 would stay on the job and the guy who was
9 not qualified, we had to trust, those were
10 out of trade school, get educated, get
11 trained, and be fit to go back to work.
12 Okay, for some reason, some of those
13 guys slipped through the cracks and I've
14 heard people sit here saying some nasty
15 stuff about some our Brothers. But we're
16 on the attack on the outside, okay? But
17 please, not, let's stop the attack on the
18 inside and let put the "Brother" back in
19 the Brotherhood.
20 One more thing I want to say today is
21 that, to Brother McCarron, I ask him
22 before he leaves this town, that we can
23 have a good job so everybody will be
24 satisfied, which is a tough thing to do.
25 But if this continues, and it's allowed to

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2 continue, some wise guys taking shots at
3 our guys, we will have no Union. But that
4 is Unioriand I want to let you know that
5 we are together in this great city, this
6 great country that we have, I think it's
7 the best in the country. And nowhere in
8 this country are we getting $80 an hour
9 for our fringe benefits and our pay
10 package.
11 I have 50.02 as a general foreman.
12 You tell me where in this country I can do
13 that? I can't. All I've got to say to
14 you gentlemen today, is God bless the
15 Union and God bless the United States of
16 America.
17 (Applause. )
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Steve
19 Favia.
20 S T EVE F A V I A , having been duly sworn,
22 THE WITNESS: First, my concerns goes
23 to, you know, everyone here who'S on the
24 out-of-work list and is not working. I,
25 myself, was on the list for a while,

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2 before I got called to work. First time I
3 was on the list, I was on the list for
4 eight months. And I forgot to call in 45
5 days, so I got bumped. I waited another
6 eight months before I got called, you
7 know, how is that fair? That's not.
8 I agree with Noel, I agree with
9 Frank, it doesn't work, and it's
10 unfortunate that there's a lot of good
11 guys that are stuck on the list, you know.
12 I can see myself a decent carpenter and I
13 was on the list for a while. I agree with
14 the lovely lady here who said that when
15 she comes out, right away she gets
16 stereotyped to do insulation. It's
17 unfortunate. But that's up to, also, that
18 depends on you speaking out, and also
19 depends on the foreman and shop steward
20 who takes care of the job to make sure
21 that everyone's being treated equally.
22 I agree with that. When I finally
23 did get called to work I had to pretty
24 much prove myself that I'm a pretty good
25 carpenter, I deserve to be working. So

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2 now, I only work for a company and I'm
3 with the company for five years. So
4 now -- when you have, you know, like I
5 said, guy guys, they are stuck in the
6 system, it's unfortunate, but now I work
7 for a company for five years. When that
8 job shuts down and they go on to another
9 one, and does that mean that I have to go
10 on the list now and wait, because it's a
11 50-50 rule, and we can't request anymore?
12 I don't agree with that.
13 We should be able to keep company
14 men. We should be able to take them to
15 the next job. I have ten good company men
16 right there who work with me now who all
17 deserved to be there. When the job's
18 over, does that mean we have to go on the
19 list and wait for eight months when
20 basically, when we call back,
21 unfortunately, again, for the list has a
22 reputation, you know, don't call anybody
23 out of the hall because we don't know what
24 you're going to get.
25 There are good guys who are on the

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2 list, but again, everyone here could agree
3 that there are those who are in the Union
4 that really can't perform or make the
5 company money. The bottom line is that if
6 companies don't make money, none of us
7 here are going to be working.
8 So you have to prove yourself. You
9 have to work. I agree with Matt when he
10 said the that there are good things about
11 the Union. I love the fact that I work
12 for a company, have my hours in and I'm
13 also able to provide benefits for my
14 family. There are good things. The whole
15 corruption thing, you know, whether it's
16 true or not, that's unfortunate. I'm
17 not -- I don't want to deal with that.
18 I want to know that I'm going to be
19 working as long as I continue to work hard
20 for who I work for. The same thing with
21 my ten guys there, that they are going to
22 continue to have a job because they
23 continue to put out and keep doing what
24 they have to do. That's what I want to
25 make sure. If we change the hundred

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2 percent mobilization being requested off
3 the list, that's what it means when -- but
4 I still have keys to the box because
5 you're a company man and you were
6 requested off the list. You were
7 requested because you're a good carpenter.
8 That's why you're there.
9 I know a lot of guys don't agree with
10 that, that it still doesn't work.
11 A VOICE: I don't.
12 THE WITNESS: I know you don't.
13 There are a lot of guys, you'll agree with
14 me that the list doesn't work, okay? Like
15 . how many
everyone said, you want to. work,
16 members do we did we have here? Where are
17 they? We should be fighting against the
18 non-Union so there is enough work for
19 everyone that's here. That's where the
20 focus should go.
21 (Applause. )
22 THE WITNESS: If the BAs were doing
23 their job, which a lot of them are; but
24 with if we continue to focus on getting
25 non-Union work to come in to Union,

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2 everybody here would be working. Everyone
3 agrees that there's plenty of work in the
4 City. Part of the reason why the list is
5 too long and not moving is because of the
6 economy itself, and that's unfortunate,
7 but you know what? Every time I get out
8 of the subway or every time I drive
9 around,· there's a job everywhere.
10 Everywhere I look, there's work. There's
11 got to be enough work for 25,000 members.
12 And another thing about the 50-50
13 list, who else in the country is going to
14 be doing that other than New York?
15 Everyone else is still going to be
16 requesting, being able to do that. No one
17 else is going to have this rule that you
18 have to have a 50-50 rule. Good company
19 men are going to end up suffering and,
20 when they suffer, so does the company, and
21 when the company suffers, everyone is
22 going to suffer because there's going to
23 be no work around anymore.
24 I finally found a job where it took
25 me a year-and-a-half, I'm finally with a

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2 good company, I have been with the Union
3 twelve years, I finally work for a good
4 company the last four-and-a-half, almost
5 five years, and now I'm going to have to
6 worry about getting bumped to the list,
7 forgetting to call in 45 days and getting
8 bumped? That's nonsense.
9 But I'm working for a good company
10 that does pay into my benefits. I don't
11 have to worry about are they paying my
12 benefits. I know I'm getting my check.
13 Am I getting that? So the company
14 suffers, all of us are going to be
15 suffering. So I just -- I want to make
16 sure that, I agree, the list doesn't work,
17 but there's -- it's also unfair to those
18 who put, one guy said he lost 585 hours
19 because they didn't pay. I got over ten
20 thousand hours into my company. What
21 about that hard ten thousand hours that I
22 put in to make sure that I'm still
23 working?
24 If you again, I know i t sounds
25 like beating a dead horse, but if you

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2 change the rule, the hundred percent
3 mobilization, the company is not only
4 going to suffer and no one is going to get
5 paid into their benefits, no one is going
6 to get paid on a weekly basis, we all
7 lose.
9 testimony.
10 (Applause. )
11 THE CHAIRMAN: John Vargo.
12 J 0 H N V A R GO, having been duly sworn,
14 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon. John
15 Vargo, Shop Steward, Local 60B.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Go ahead, John.
17 THE WITNESS: Newly minuted shop
18 steward. I came here as a guilty man, a
19 guilty man in that I never took the Union
20 that seriously. And as a shop steward, I
21 listened to my Brothers and Sisters talk
22 about how we're corrupted and robbed and
23 whatever. But a forum like this is
24 exactly what we need to air every problem
25 to transparency in what is going on. We

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2 need to have open debates and elections.
3 I talk to my foremen, they are convinced
4 the elections were fixed.
5 This is democracy, a Union is a
6 democracy. It's by us, for us and of us.
7 And this sort of forum is exactly what we
8 need, and I applaud that. I really do.
9 All issues I've been listening to for
10 the last half hour, 45 minutes, are all
11 battle, and there are a lot of men who
12 are accused of what they are accused of
13 are guilty. I say, innocent until proven
14 guilty. But we all know there's a lot of
15 bullshit going on for a long time, and
16 it's got to change. And we need some
17 transfers, I mean, the word is
18 transparency, and the forum, free speech.
19 I guess that's all I have to say.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much,
21 John.
22 (Applause. )
23 THE CHAIRMAN: John Solon? One rule,
24 you have to remove your had. Thank you.

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1 Testimony - Jon Solon
2 J 0 H N SOL 0 N , having been duly sworn,
5 from?
8 THE WITNESS: My question is, with
9 regards to --
10 THE CHAIRMAN: I know that's an Irish
11 accent.
12 THE WITNESS: That's right. My name
13 is John Solon. And I'm a 34-year member
14 of 608, and I work for a company. And my
15 question is with regards to the list as we
16 asked, who comes out to contact, and how
17 they -- how do you get out of various
18 shops? And I work as a woodworker, where
19 I come from, I had hours that we were
20 hired to do the job, and at a previous
21 hearing, he said he worked for a company
22 five or six years, and they the 50-50
23 was killing the good guys.
24 I have the same experience. The last
25 job I was on, we had to request some guys

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591
2 off the list from the hall, from the
3 District Council, I'd say, two or three of
4 the guys that came out, there were no more
5 woodwork carpenters. And the company had
6 to pay 80, 90 dollars an hour. I just
7 want to know who's monitoring the list and
8 how do you put guys on the list, you know,
9 put the name down, if somebody monitors
10 that. Right now, you can put your name on
11 for any job. And once your name is on the
12 list, you're sent out.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: You'll have to check
14 with the District Council and Frank
15 Spencer, because each Council does
16 different --
17 THE WITNESS: What you have to do,
18 with the trade school, we have some great
19 guys down there. I just want to know, why
20 can't we do something about making sure
21 the guys are qualified when they put their
22 name on the list, to say whatever, you
23 know, the guys that you see, guys who do
24 Sheetrock, we've got guys that do
25 concrete, we've got guys that do woodwork,

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2 and not everybody is a woodworker, not
3 everybody is a Sheetrock guy, not every
4 guy can do ceilings. I want to know
5 how
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Will you check with
7 the Council, please.
8 THE WITNESS: I've got to check with
9 the Council?
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, we don't have
11 universal rule throughout the nation.
12 Each Council adopts its own policies with
13 regard to qualifications.
14 THE WITNESS: Well, that's my
15 testimony.
17 THE WITNESS: That's it. Make sure
18 that a guys put the names on the list are
19 qualified to do the specific job that they
20 are signed up for.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Very good. Thank you.
22 (Applause. )
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Lorenzo Monts?
25

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1 Testimony - Lorenzo Monts
2 LORENZO M 0 N T S having been duly
3 affirmed, testified as follows:
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Lorenzo, what Local
5 are you from?
6 THE WITNESS: I'm Local 157.
8 THE WITNESS: Okay. I just wish
9 everybody a good evening. Okay. Pretty
10 much, what's been said so far, is -- is
11 pretty much consistent of the majority of
12 the Brothers that's here.
13 There's just some -- there's a
14 problem with the UBC's administrators
15 in -- well, I guess that's not the problem
16 that we're testifying about just for you.
17 But there are so many diverse problems
18 here. First, let me clarify one thing. I
19 didn't come here to speak, but they asked
20 me if I wanted to speak, I knew that I
21 would want to speak.
22 Actually, what I did come to hear
23 what you panel gentlemen plan to do,
24 that's what I thought the forum was going
25 to be specifically for, I thought this

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2 invitation was going to be somewhat
3 informative to the rights --
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay, let me explain
5 real quick, because you just got here.
6. The panel is put by the General President

.., to take testimony to determine whether or
8 not supervision over the District Council
·9 should be continued by the International.
10 That's what the panel was sent over for,
11 okay?
12 . THE WITNESS: Thanks so much for
13 clarifying that for me, because that's
14 exactly what the District Council in this
15 jurisdiction, in this area, needs,
16 definitely needs some supervision and i t
17 definitely needs, you know, somebody to --
18 somebody to make sure that some of
19 these -- some of these witnesses are heard
20 and not just, you know, swept under the
21 rug. Somebody saying, we was just -- I'm
22 a carpenter for 18 years, and I'm a
23 steward for the last four years. Okay?
24 And these -- these things are not new.
25 With the advent of the 50-50, that's --

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2 that's one of the most -- I think that's
3 one of the most c1annish things that was
4 estab1ished. Because with the se1ection
5 of the -- if you wanted to se1ect a
6 carpenter, and bring him from another job,
7 and sti11 1eave the rest of the members,
8 you know, unaccounted for. You know?
9 That's -- that's one of the most unfair
10 practices that cou1d possib1y be. Because
11 what you rea11y have is, you have certain
12 members that's definite1y eating a11 the
13 time, and you have some that's practica11y
14 not eating at a11.
15 Then you have
16 THE CHAIRMAN: A11 right.
17 THE WITNESS: the companies that
18 are requesting guys, they -- it they
19 are 10sing the worst, the worse for the
20 stewards to try to -- to make sense of it
21 amongst other peop1e. When I'm asked a
22 question, "How cou1d they possib1y do
23 this?" I'm 1ike, "We11 , it's above me.
24 It's bigger than me."
25 I can't -- I don't approve of it

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2 either, because I don't how it could
3 possibly be right. We all pay the same
4 amount of dues. But we all aren't given
5 the same amount of benefit from the Union,
6 you know? So that's -- that's what it is.
7 You know, the cronyism has really got to
8 be addressed, and it's really got to be
9 met and it's got to be dealt with, because
10 like the other one spoke about, with the
11 prior administrations, they are still the
12 same things are pretty much going on. The
13 same things are going on. You know? And
14 well, something really needs to be done.
15 That's why I came here today,
16 because -- to get some idea of, you know,
17 what could possibly -- what changes could
18 possibly be being made within the District
19 Council itself, you know? I'm saying,
20 we're getting all this terrible press in
21 the newspapers, and we talk about the
22 things going on here. A lot of us has
23 families and kids, and that's really a
24 terrible thing. That we get two or three
25 guys that say, !lOh, the Union, couldn't be

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2 greater." The ideal of the Union what it
3 was twenty years ago and still is to me,
4 too. The possibilities that that Union
5 for workers is -- is a beautiful thing,
6 but if we're all not partaking it in it,
7 we're paying equally but we're not
8 receiving equal benefit, you're never
9 going to -- it's never going to be
10 balanced, and you know, that's my main
11 focus on that.
13 (Applause. )
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Jerry Burder?
15 J ERR Y BUR D E R , having been duly sworn,
18 from.
21 THE WITNESS: My name is Jerry
22 burger, I'm Local 608, a shop steward with
23 608, been a carpenter for 25 years. And a
24 proud member of 608, regardless of what's
25 been exposed in the media and stuff, and I

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1 Testimony - Jerry Burder
2 think that my first reaction was like
3 everyone, you know, shock, at the stuff,
4 at these allegations that were made.
5 I think people need to remember that
6 these are allegations right now. They
7 have not been proven in court, but the way
8 most guys act right now is as if these
9 guys have been tried and found guilty, and
10 there hasn't been a trial yet. But we've
11 been tried by the media. And you've got
12 to remember, the reason this happens is
13 because you're a Union member, and this
14 country was built, the country was built
15 for big business. And Union members,
16 especially Union officials walking around
17 in this city, and I was reading the LMRDA
18 504 section D that they mailed out to us,
19 and then we were checking the list of the
20 violations that would prevent you from
21 ever becoming a shop steward or a Union
22 official, and I was aghast at the list of
23 misdemeanors or felonies that the person
24 had committed, that would prohibit him
25 from serving in the Union.

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2 You know, no such laws exist for
3 people on Wall Street, the financial
4 district. I was thinking of Michael
5 Milken. After serving his term in prison,
6 came back out and is back on Wall Street
7 doing the same old thing again. The rules
8 are stacked against us in the Union. The
9 Wagner Act, when it was bought up in the
10 1940s, it was like a gift to unions, I
11 think the LMRDA guide is a kind of balance
12 to the Wagner Act. So we've got labor
13 management disclosure act
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Talk a little slower,
15 too, he's got to get i t down.
16 THE WITNESS: It it reeled in the
17 power of the unions somewhat, and that's
18 what -- I mean, people are making a lot of
19 money on these narcotics convictions and
20 stuff, and -- or convictions. or whatever
21 they are. Allegations of narcotic use.
22 But for me, it's a sham, that this is
23 probably in the industry where you
24 wouldn't be offered help first, you know,
25 with a problem, addiction. In our field,

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2 trade unionism, if you're an officer or a
3 shop steward, the price is losing your
4 job. It's just something that needs to be
5 borne in mind that these Brothers are
6 Union members just like ourselves, and
7 they have to have a trial just like
8 everybody else, and I think we need to
9 support them until that does happen.
10 I don't want to take up much time,
11 it's been a very long two days for you,
12 the panel, and there's obviously some need
13 for some changes here. The same type
14 of -- we got together to meet resistance
15 the last time, I remember when you were
16 coming in, the march across the Brooklyn
17 Bridge, I don't think you see that
18 happening. I think it's a very good
19 opportunity and I'd like to welcome you
20 here and if I could help, I would offer my
21 assistance.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much,
23 very kind.
24 THE WITNESS: Just one thing,
25 Brother, let's say in closing, I mean,

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2 let's -- if you wanted to be proactive as
3 a Carpenter member, I've listened to some
4 people speak up here and they are speaking
5 of injustices and things that they are not
6 getting. And I don't know how much of
7 that is envy or just how much of that is
8 poor professionalism or what, but one
9 needs to really take once one's future, if
10 you will, into his own hands.
11 You have to -- me being a shop
12 steward, for example, I mean, there were
13 occasions when I went on the job and I was
14 the shop steward there, and there was an
15 80,000 shortage in the that
16 hadn't been paid to the tune of 80 grand,
17 and four or five stewards before me had
18 walked out. And I chose to stay because I
19 got to know some of the guys there, and it
20 was a tough job, but we ended up getting
21 those benefits back, every single penny,
22 for everybody who was there on that job,
23 and for the six months before that. And
24 we got it back, and the way that worked
25 was, I put a mechanic's lien on a city

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2 hospi tal, if you will, which is kind of·.
3 ridiculous, but it should shows -- and
4 they signed off on the mechanic's lien on
5 the New York City hospital, and the
6 general contractor was so embarrassed by
7 this lien, you know, on the building and
8 afraid of his poor reputation that he very
9 quickly made those funds available to the
10 Union and everyone got what we had.
11 We just need to start thinking not so
12 much of what the Union can do for me, but
13 what we can to for each other and for
14 yourselves, and stop, like, looking at the
15 "poor me's" if you will, and start trying
16 to act, you know, in, you know, in our
17 own, each of our own ways, you know. But
18 again, thank you very much.
20 (Applause. )
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Ronald Katz.
22 RONALD KAT Z , having been duly sworn,
24 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon. My
25 name is Ronald Katz. I'm a shop steward

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1 Testimony - Ronald Katz
2 for Local 608. I've been a 608 member for
3 26 years, shop steward for ten. I, as
4 well as many other men have with been
5 dismayed by the charges and allegations
6 that have been put forth. My personal
7 view is not to let a few bad apples make
8 the impression on the rest of the world.
9 I think that we're doing a fine job here
10 in New York, a wonderful apprenticeship
11 program, the out-of-work list actually
12 does work.
13 You have the opportunity to educate
14 yourself through the technical college
15 here, and if you do not have the skills,
16 you can get the skills. This is a very
17 important thing, to make the Union better
18 or stronger. I think that it's better to
19 build i t up than break i t down. I think
20 that the oversight that is being asked for
21 is needed as well as the attention is
22 needed here in New York. This is a very
23 large marketplace. Everybody in the world
24 looks at New York as the benchmark for
25 carpenters and tradesmen throughout the

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1 Testimony - Rona1d Katz
2 nation. A11 right?
3 We want to 1ead by examp1e here in
4 New York. Thank you.
7 (App1ause . )
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Pau1, I guess it's
9 Kanyuch, is that how you spe11 that?
10 Pau1, is he here?
11 A VOICE: I'm here, but --
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Are you here?
13 A VOICE: Doesn't want to speak.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. We have Vanessa
15 Sa1azar. Vanessa, you've been up one
16 time? I'm going to 1et you have a very
17 short amount of time to get this court
18 reporter out of here. She's previous1y
19 been sworn in. Go ahead, Vanessa.
20 VANESSA SALAZAR, having been
21 previous1y sworn, resumed the stand and
22 testified further as fo11ows:.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: We keep the best for
24 1ast, Vanessa. Thank you very much for
25 coming back.

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1 Testimony - Vanessa Salazar
2 THE WITNESS: Sure, no problem. For
3 those of you who don't know me, I'm
4 Vanessa. I've been a fourth year
5 apprentice. After attending the hearings
6 for the last two days, and for a lot of
7 things have come up regarding apprentices,
8 so that's something I would like to you a
9 dress since I am one.
10 First off, I hear a lot of
11 complaining that apprentices are not
12 showing up to work when they are
13 dispatched off the list. I've heard that
14 sometimes shop stewards need to request
15 two or three apprentices to ensure that
16 one actually shows up.
17 Personally, I'm disgusted by that as
18 an apprentice who was without of work most
19 of this year, and spending most of i t
20 shaping for work. I think that there's a
21 large disparity that exists between the
22 field and the apprenticeship within the
23 school.
24 When you attend the Labor Technical
25 College, if you're late to school one day,

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2 you're not allowed to attend. So
3 automatically it's considered an absence,
4 and you'll either make that day up. And
5 if you by chance are late to school on a
6 Monday or miss a Monday, you automatically
7 get a six months' extension. So there's a
8 big disparity in my opinion between a
9 six-month extension for showing up late on
10 a Monday to school, a person not going to
11 a job that you have been sent to following
12 the Union rules.
13 So I think something needs to be in
14 place to monitor that, so that this trend
15 no longer continues.
16 Secondly, I'd like to say that as an
17 apprentice, I have found that there is a
18 big issue with apprentices not getting
19 sufficient time on their tools. I think
20 it's common knowledge, at least in New
21 York City, I don't know if it's systemic
22 across the nation, that persons sending
23 your apprentices, material and -- and
24 though humping material and insulation and
25 jacking up on concrete are necessary

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607
2 components in order to get the job done
3 within construction, they don't really
4 transfer into employable skills once you
5 turn journey level.
6 So I think it's important that we
7 keep focus on the fact that we're
8 investing all these resources on
9 apprentices and yet falling short when it
10 comes out to the field. And oftentimes,
11 at least for myself, I can insulate better
12 than anyone in this room because I've had
13 sufficient practice at it.
14 But I don't know if i t can bring it
15 out and bring it along, and that's
16 unfortunate, because I am in my fourth
17 year and I personally feel that I've done
18 the right things. I've been a good Union
19 member, I vote in my Local meetings, I've
20 become very active, try to do very well at
21 school. I take the journeyman courses a
22 the night, and you know, at the same time,
23 I've also tried to diversify my skills.
24 I've often heard, you know, "Don't get
25 pigeonholed into just being an interior

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608
2 person." So after my second year, I left
3 interior, backed out and did some
4 concrete.
5 So I'm not being a jack of all
6 trades, but I've had my finger in
7 everyone's pie to learn a little in order
8 to be able to work. But like I said,
9 first and second year, you're humping
10 material, you're making money for the
11 company. Third year, if you're lucky, you
12 get cast a bone here and there and you get
13 to pick up the skills, and you're stealing
14 with your eyes mainly.
15 And then fourth year, unfortunately,
16 the ball is completely dropped and in a
17 good year, you're lucky to work. And in
18 this economy, most of my fourth year
19 friends are falling two to four months of
20 work per year, and I finally feel that
21 that's inappropriate because I feel like
22 during my first three years, I was in the
23 minor leagues, and now I've turned fourth
24 year so I need for go out and now I'm in
25 the major leagues, but you have me sitting

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609
2 in the dugout all year arid now that we're
3 finally in the World Series, they say, "Go
4 out there show us what you can do."
5 I haven't been around the bases, I'm
6 not going to be running hitting the balls
7 to the bleachers anymore. I haven't
8 worked the pad all year, so there's no way
9 I can turn out at the beginning and be a
10 productive skilled journeyperson and
11 properly represent this Union if for the
12 last year I've been on hibernation on my
13 skills.
14 So I think that's
15 (Applause. )
16 THE WITNESS: -- like I said, I don't
17 know if it's just a New York issue. I
18 would imagine it's not. I don't think
19 anyone's here to reinvent the wheel. If
20 there's better practices in place
21 throughout, I'd like to see them
22 incorporated here, because I think it's a
23 real disservice to the Union in general to
24 let our future fall under. And it's to
25 through our own doing.

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3 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: I, in closing,
5 especially, thank the court reporter for
6 his, I guess, I can't even express the
7 term.
8 A VOICE: Give him a round of
9 applause.
10 (Applause. )
11 THE CHAIRMAN: From here on, what
12 happens, I'm going to close the hearing.
13 We are going to get the transcript from
14 the court reporter. The committee will
15 review the transcript. A recommendation
16 will be formulated, that recommendation
17 will be taken to the general executive
18 board of the United Brotherhood of
19 Carpenters as to whether or not
20 supervision of this Council will continue.
21 I can tell you that it is in the
22 interest of the United Brotherhood of
23 Carpenters and Joiners International Union
24 that this District Council be put in a
25 position to self-govern, to maximize work

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1 Proceedings
2 opportunities for its members, to make
3 sure that, hopefully, there is no further
4 allegation of corruption by any Union
5 official, or member of this organization.
6 I can certainly tell you as one, I
7 was here in a previous administration on
8 the hearings panel, and it was ugly. I
9 hate to be back here today under .similar
10 circumstances. It is not good for you,
11 it's not good for the City, it's not good
12 for the organization nationally. This
13 stuff is like a cancer. And it is
14 unfortunate that we have these allegations
15 brought forth, but we have to go out and
16 try to correct. You've got the National
17 Right to Work Committee pick this stuff
18 up, and that isn't a good thing. They use
19 it as their poster child.
20 So the one thing that we can do as
21 members is to go out and assist the folks
22 that are trying to run this Council. I've
23 heard members talking about, we need,
24 we've heard from over a hundred different
25 people giving testimony here today and

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1 Proceedings
2 yesterday. I've heard people talking
3 about the unorganized. Well, let me tell
4 you, each of you are organizers and I can
5 tell you, not many of you have been out
6 organizing. It is incumbent upon all of
7 us as a member of this Union to continue
8 to organize the unorganized.
9 Am I right?
10 (Applause. )
11 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. So with
12 that, I thank you very much for your
13 cooperation, your courtesy in letting us
14 run a fair and open forum, and I wish you
15 Godspeed and good luck, thank you.
16 (Applause. )
17 Time noted: 4:01 p.m.)
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

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2 C E R T I F I CAT E
3 STATE OF NEW YORK )
4 ss.
5 COUNTY OF NEW YORK )
7 I, DAVID LEVY, CSR, a Shorthand
8 Reporter and Notary Public within and for
9 the State of New York, do hereby certify
10 that the foregoing proceedings were
11 before me on October 16, 2009;
12 That the within transcript is a true
13 record of said proceedings;
14 That I am not connected by blood or
15 marriage with any of the parties herein
16 nor interested directly or indirectly in
17 the matter in controversy, nor am I in the
18 employ of any of the counsel.
19 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto
20 set my hand this 20th of October,
21 2009.
22
23
24 DAVID LEVY, CSR
25

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CERTifiED TRINSCRIPT 414

5 AND JOINERS OF AMERICA

12 New York, New York

17 ROBERT YEGGY, UBC Representative

25 David Levy, CSR, Hearing Reporter

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3 THE CHAIRMAN: Can we turn the mics

4 on? Everybody come in, take your seat,

5 we'll get the hearing started. Court

7 Good morning, Brothers and Sisters.

8 This is a hearing to determine if

9 supervision by the United Brotherhood of

10 Carpenters over the New York City District

11 Council of Carpenters should continue, and

12 it's being held under the Constitution and

13 laws of the United Brotherhood. All of

14 you received a notice from the General

15 President, a letter to Frank Spencer from

16 the General President stating the reason

17 for having this hearing.

18 I'd like to introduce the hearing

19 panel. Over to my left is Bob Yeggy. Bob

20 is the District Vice-President from the

21 Midwest District. To my right is Charles

22 Danny Maples. He's the District

23 Vice-President from the Southern District.

24 My name is Michael Draper. I'm the

25 Vice-President of the Western District,

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2 and I'll be chairing this hearing. Are

3 all folks in this room members of the

5 As the General President's letter

6 indicated, if you received it, this is a

7 hearing. It's not a trial or a

8 prosecution. We are an investigating

9 committee appointed by the General

10 President to make findings and

11 recommendations under 6D and 10H of the

12 UBC Constitution. We will do our best to

13 afford ample opportunity to everyone who

14 wishes to testify or submit evidence to

15 this committee. We need your full

16 cooperation to make sure this hearing is

17 conducted in an orderly manner.

18 There are a few simple rules and

19 procedures that we need to follow. All

20 those who wish to testify in front of this

21 committee, please let us know by

22 indicating that desire when signing your

23 name on the attendance sheet. At present,

24 i t is our intention to take testimony only

25 from members of the Local Unions

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2 affiliated with this Council. Other

3 members of the United Brotherhood may

4 attend this hearing but not testify.

5 The committee may also exercise its

6 discretion and allow testimony from

7 non-member witnesses if the committee

8 determines that they have information

9 relevant to the proceeding.

10 Testimony from witness will be under

11 oath. All testimony will be recorded by