Plato on Commensurability and Desire Author(s): Martha C.

Nussbaum and Rosalind Hursthouse Reviewed work(s): Source: Proceedings of the Aristotelian Society, Supplementary Volumes, Vol. 58 (1984), pp. 55-96 Published by: Blackwell Publishing on behalf of The Aristotelian Society Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/4106844 . Accessed: 30/04/2012 00:40
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PLATO ON COMMENSURABILITY AND DESIRE Martha C. Nussbaum and Rosalind Hursthouse I-Martha C. Nussbaum
And look: I gave them numbering, chief of all the strategems. Bound Prometheus, in Aeschylus, Prometheus Every circumstance by which the condition of an individual can be influenced, being remarked and inventoried, nothing... [is] left to chance, caprice, or unguided discretion, everything being surveyedand set down in dimension, number, weight, and measure. Jeremy Bentham, PauperManagement Improved

If ethical values are all commensurable, differing from one another only in quantity, what differencedoes this make?'Plato gives us a stark and simple answer. The adoption of an ethical 'science of measurement', at the heart of which is the belief in commensurability, is both necessary and sufficient for 'saving our lives' i.e. for giving human beings a life that will be free of certain intolerable pains and confusions. Here I propose to examine one aspect of Plato's 'life-saving'project:namely, some
Luck 'Much of the material in this paper is drawn from my The Fragilityof Goodness: andPhilosophy, in Greek andtheGoodLife forthcomingCambridge University Press, Tragedy and ch. 6 on the Symposium; there is also some 1985; especially from ch. 4 on the Protagoras from ch. 7, and on Aristotle from chs. 10-12. A versionof use of material on the Phaedrus ch. 6 was previously published as 'The Speech of Alcibiades: a Reading of Plato's 3 (1978-9); a somewhat different version of ch. 7 andLiterature in Philosophy Symposium,' was published as "'This Story Isn't True": Poetry, Goodness, and Understanding in in PlatoonBeauty,Wisdom, andtheArts,ed. J. Moravcsik and P. Temko Plato's Phaedrus,' (Totowa 1982). The interpretative issues are all more fully defended in the book, with much referenceto and discussionof the secondaryliterature. I thereforehope that fellow workers on these dialogues will forgive me if I confine myself here to brief acknowledgement of the sources that have been most important for my work. For the these are: C. C. W. Taylor's volume in the Clarendon Plato Series (Oxford Protagoras (Oxford 1977). David Wiggins's 'Weakness 1976), and T. H. Irwin, Plato'sMoral Theory of Will, Commensurability, and the Objects of Deliberation and Desire' (PAS 79 (1978-9) 251-77) has several points of intersection with this paper; I first read an earlier draft of it in 1974, long before I began developing these views, and returned to the published piece only recently, at the stage of final revision. I am not aware of a direct influence; but there may have been some. In any case, conversations with Wiggins on this and related topics over the years have been an invaluable source of encouragement and illumination.

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alleged connections between the belief in the commensurability of value and the nature of the human emotions. It is Plato's idea, I shall argue, that the belief in commensurability cuts very deep: taken seriously,it will transformour passionsas well as our decision-making, giving emotions such as love, fear, grief, and hence the ethical problems that are connected with them, an altogether different character. We shall begin with the investigating the connection between the adoption of Protagoras, a quantitative measure of value and the elimination of the and Republic, problem of akrasia.Next, turning to the Symposium we shall see how commensurability reformsseveral of the most vexing emotions, especially passionate love and grief.To pursue Plato's argumentswill yield two philosophical dividends. It will enrich our discussion of the connections between emotion and belief, typically focussed upon the beliefs that are closely associated with each particular emotion, by showing how a certain background belief functions as a necessary condition of much of our ordinary emotional life. And it will remind us that certain proposals in ethics and social choice theory that present themselves as innocuous extensions of ordinary belief and practice could actually lead, followed and lived with severity and rigor, to the end of human life as we currently know it. I The stage was set, historically, for Plato's attempt.2 The fifth century had seen considerable discussion of what was required for the establishment of a successful techne,i.e. of an orderly systematization of practice in some area that would yield increased control over the ungoverned aspects of human existence. In this debate the role of commensurability as criterion of rationality and index of progress was great. The medical writers, for example, are on the defensive, feeling the need to argue that their science is a real science (techne) and can make belief in its really progressbeyond ordinary spiteof lack of a And in measure. the connection between general quantitative
from ch. 4 of the 2This is a condensation of a detailed historical discussion of techne book, where there are extensive references to other Platonic passages, to many other ancient authors, and to the literature. Cf. also the related discussion in my 'Eleatic Conventionalism and Philolaus on the Conditions of Thought,' HarvardStudiesin 83 (1979) 63-108, esp. 89-91. Classical Philology

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number and order, between the ability to count or measure and the ability to grasp, comprehend, or control, runs very deep in Greek thought about human understanding. It pervades literature from Homer on; it lies at the heart of Pythagorean epistemology, of which Plato was probably a seriousstudent. An examination of fifth and early fourth-century uses of words associated with measure and commensurability reveals that they come freighted with heavy evaluative associations.What is measurable or commensurable is graspable, in order, good; what is without measure is boundless, elusive, chaotic, threatening, bad. The tremendous anxiety brought about by the discovery of incommensurability (and therefore 'irrationality') in the subject matter of mathematics, the clearest of the sciences, testifies to the power and pervasivenessof such beliefs. Given this situation, it is hardly surprising that someone who wanted to claim that he had developed a rational techne making progress in some area would feel obliged to answer questions about the measurability of the subject matter. And it would be natural that, confronted with a subject matter as confusing in its variety and indeterminacy as human valuation and choice, a thinker with an interest in order and progressshould ask himself whether this area of our lives could be, or become, a science of measurement.
II

The subject of the Protagoras is the establishment of a techne of Each of the two has an interest practical reasoning. protagonists in such a science. Protagoras claims that he teaches it; Socrates claims at least to know what it would be like to have and to teach it. Each has quite a different conception of what such a science would be like and how it would speak to our ethical difficulties. seems to involve little more than a reflective Protagoras' techne elaboration of the ethical statusquo;it leaves intact and tries to show the point of the plurality of (apparently incommensurable) values recognized in ordinary belief. Socrates evidently believes that this is insufficient: the urgency of our ethical difficulties of measurement. The requires the life-saving power of a techne relevance of a science of measurement to the resolutions of ethical disagreements and uncertainties is evident; the analogy was pressed in this connection already in the Euthyphro (7B-D),

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and it is more than an analogy here. But a surprisingfurther Socrates is the removal of a dividend promised by the Protagoras further deep ethical problem, the problem of akrasia. To see how the resolution of this problem is connected with Socrates' interest in measurementwe must look closely at the argument in which Socrates purports to show us that this problem does not, as described, occur: scientific knowledge of the good is sufficient for correct choice. Much has been written about this argument, whose structure now seems to be well understood.3But before we can probe into the issue of commensurability, we need to say, briefly, what the net result of these discussionshas been. The argument falls into three stages: first, a description of the problem; second, an argument that this problem does not really arise; third, an alternative diagnosis of practical error. The problem is a familiar one. A can do either x ory. A knows that x is better (overall), but choosesy, because she is overcome by pleasure. (The first statement of the problem adds, as alternatives, pain, love, and fear-but Socrates, quite reasonably in light of the hedonist agreement, speaks only of quantities of pleasure in what follows. This is important.) Knowledge, then, is 'dragged around like a slave.' Protagoras and Socrates have explicitly agreed, from the outset, on two crucial premises: H: Pleasure is identical with the good. Hi: A believes pleasure to be identical with the good. It is quite clear that this premise is seriously endorsed by Socrates, regarded by all as a seriousproposal of Socrates', and absolutely crucial to the validity of the argument for the conclusion, an important Socratic doctrine.4 And yet, the absence of any sustained examination of the nature of pleasure and its intuitive credentials makes us suspect that pleasure is introduced less for its intrinsic appeal than for its promising status as single measure of value.5 The conclusion of the
3See esp. Irwin, to whose formulation mine will be close; and Taylor, who links the analysis of the argument to an excellent discussion of measurement. 4Cf. 351C, 357A; there is a full discussion of texts and critics in ch. 4. ' of Plato'sDoctrines My position is close to that of I. M. Crombie, An Examination (London 1962) 1.232 ff.

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argument is that we desperately need a science that weighs and measures using a single standard.6 Such a science needs a measure of value that will be single, ubiquitous, and relevant to the choices in question. Pleasure is as good as anything might be for such a measure. The post-Socratic history of the ethical measuring science shows that its appeal as standard of choice is deep, even among thinkersnot otherwise hedonistically inclined (Mill, Sidgwick).7We have reason, then, to suspect that Plato's choice of pleasure is motivated first and foremost by his commitment to commensurability;the elaboration and defense of the particular choice of a standard is posteriorand not really attempted here. If we find it odd that Socrates can feel confident about the form that an ethical science will take before establishing that there is a candidate for the standard that is unitary and omnipresent in the requisiteway, we might begin to reflect that perhaps Socrates (like Bentham and Sidgwick) is less interested in our current intuitions about ends than he is in giving us a gift that will save our lives. Zeus (in Protagoras' story) did not require that justice be already a central human concern when he decided to make the attachment to justice a linch-pin of his saving techne. Now, in the crucial second phase of the argument, Socrates uses these premises, substituting 'good' for 'pleasant' to produce an absurdity in the description of what allegedly happens: A knows x is more good than y; A chooses y, because she is overcome by (desire for) the good in y. 'What ridiculous nonsense,' Socrates now remarks, 'for a person to do the bad, knowing it is bad [i.e. inferior], and that he ought not to do it, because he was overcome by good.' At first we do not see what the absurdity is: for isn't this, in a way, just what happens in akrasia?This other good over here exerts a special kind of pull that draws us to it, so that we neglect our commitment to the good that is better overall. But we must look at how Socrates himself explains the absurdity, showing us what he means by 'overcome'. Is the good iny, he now asks, a match for the badness involved in missing out on x? No: for this
6 356DE: the metretike is both necessary and sufficient for saving our lives (soteria techne tou biou). 7 See the discussionof pleasure as standard of choice in John Rawls, A Theory ofJustice (Cambridge, Ma. 1971) 554-60.

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would contradict the description of the case, according to which there is, and is known to be, more good in x than iny. But then ify of offers a smaller amount good, an amount that is not a really A is doing is choosing a smaller in what the then match for good x, and of giving up a larger package. But how package pleasures absurd that A should, with full knowledge, give up the larger package because she was overwhelmed by the smalleramount in the smaller package. It is like saying, 'A, offered the choice between $50 and $200, chose the $50, because she was overcome by the quantity of the $50.' And that does seem absurd. In short, and of qualitative homogeneity seem to be notions of amount doing some work here in producing the absurd result. We shall shortly see just how central their place is. How could such an absurd mistake occur? Socrates can explain it only as the result of a mistakenjudgment about the size of the packages. Just as adverse physical conditions sometimes give rise to false beliefs about size, nearer items appearing taller or larger, so nearer pleasures,too, can strikeus as bigger and more important than they are on account of their nearness. The closeness of the present pleasure producesa false belief about size that temporarily displaces the agent's background knowledge about the real sizes involved. It is clear that, with pleasure as with size, a science of measurement would suffice to put an end to our errors. Our attention must now be drawn to Socrates'premisesin the second, absurdity-producing part of the argument. For the explicit hedonistic assumptions are clearly not enough to get Socrates to his conclusion. He is making tacit use of at least two further assumptions: M: Whenever A chooses between x andy, she weighs and measures by a single quantitative standard of value. A C: choosesx rather thany if and only if she believes x to be more valuable than y.8 M gives us the use of a quantitative standard in each particular case. H1 gives us the singlenessof the standardacrossall cases. C gives us the reliable connection between the beliefs that are the outcome of the weighing and the agent's actual choices.
8Cf. 358D; my formulation here is indebted to Irwin's.

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Together they yield the conclusion Socrates wants: if A's choice is not the result of a correct weighing, and is not made under duress (ruled out in the description of the case), then it must result from an incorrect weighing. For this is the only reason why someone who could have more would choose to have a smaller quantity of the same thing. Each of these premiseshas a certain plausibility as an account of our deliberative procedure someof the time. Yet anyone who accepts the initial description of the case as the account of an actual human occurrence should take issue with them. For together they succeed in telling us that a problem by which we are intuitively gripped and troubled does not exist. Akrasia was supposed to be a case where ordinary deliberative rationality breaks down. What Socrates has done is not so much to prove that there can never be such breakdowns as to clarify the relationship between a certain sort of deliberative rationality and the akrasia problem. If we believe in a single end or good, varying only in quantity, and always deliberate by weighing or measuring quantitatively by a single standard, and always choose to act in accordance with our beliefs about the greater overall quantity of good, then akrasia will not happen. So, we are tempted to say: as long as rationality works it doesn't break down. We didn't need Socrates to tell us that. At this point, many interpretersdismiss the entire argument. Seeing that the premises are not empirically acceptable as accounts of what we do in all cases (afterall, their failure to hold was just what our ordinary belief in akrasiaarticulated), then it looks as if Socrates had better do some more looking at the ways people actually live and think.9 Socrates' conclusion, however, should make us suspect that something more is going on here. What he told us, and Protagoras agreed, is that only an ethical science of measurement will save our lives. If we accept his diagnosis of our problems and their urgency, and agree that we want to save our lives, it may occur to us that we are given, in Socrates' argument, an advertisement, as it were, for its premises. The argument need not rely on the common-sense intuitive acceptability of the premises. (Socrates stressesin this dialogue his disdain for the confused intuitions of the ordinary
SForthis criticism, see Aristotle, EN 1145 b25 ff.

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being. ) It shows and the disappearanceus a connection of a problem betweenthesepremises indeed,of morethanone problem. An agentwho thinks the way thesepremises hasno confusion describe about choice, no about choice,and, with others it isclaimed,no disagreements problem ofakrasia. thing,premisesand all, The whole appearsto be the Socratic practical reasoning,the life-savingart. techne of The most astonishing claim impliedby this argument is that the qualitative acceptanceof the singleness and homogeneity of all thevalues modifies the passions, actually forcertain sorts of removingthe motivations we now have irrational behavior. absurdnota dangerous Akrasia becomes temptation, butsomething never happen.To see how thatwould to be so, we needto return to Socrates'talk of this is supposed packages and amountsand to more deeply into the life and enter world view of his agent. hypothetical An ordinarycase of akrasialookslike this. that if sheeatsa bageljust Phaedraknows cramp and cut downthe beforeshegoesrunning she distanceshecan complete. will get a angry with herselflater and She will be she will find her than it wouldhavebeen health less good had sherunfurther knows, and eatenless.She then, let us saysthat it is betterall things to eat the bagelnow, but not instead to go running considered is very hungry,and the bagel directly.Butshe looksso very appealing, there hot and butteredon its plate. Its appeal to her issitting distinct andspecial;it doesnot quite look a small package of health.It looks likea littlebit of exercise exactlylikea buttered or And so (swayedby the bagel. desiresit Contrast the followingcase. arouses)she eats it.l Phaedra's some rationalprinciple, reason,is to maximizeher for bagel-eating. middle of the room, she Standing in the sees on a table on one containing two freshbagels, side a plate toastedand buttered. side of the room,on a similar On the other table, is a toasted buttered bagel.The bagelsarethe plate containingone fresh, samevariety,equally equally hot, buttered either one plateor the other, in the same way. She can go for but (forsomereason) notboth.She
lNotice howclosethis looksto a caseof contingent remarked by D. Davidson valueconflict; ('HowisWeakness thiscloseness is ofWillPossible?' Feinberg (Oxford1969)93-113. in MoralConcepts, ed.J.

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knows that, given her rational principle, she ought to eat the two bagels. But, overcome by desire, she eats the one. Now this does seem highly peculiar, in a way that our first case did not. We must comprehend that there is no respect in which the singlebagel plate differs from the two-bagel plate, except in the number of bagels it contains. The bagels are in no way qualitatively different.Nor is the arrangementof bagels on plate or plate on table somehow more aesthetically appealing. The single-bagel plate is not even nearer, it is the same distance away. What could make Phaedra's choice anything but absurd, given that she really has the principle we say she has? I find myself imagining, as I try to understand her action, that there must after all be somedistinguishing quality to that single bagel. It looked so cute, with its little burned spot on the crust. Or: it was from New York, and the other two were not. Or: she rememberseating bagels with her lover at thistable, and not at that one. Or. she is a mathematician and she thinks that the single bagel in the middle of its plate exhibits a more pleasing geometrical arrangement. Or: it is so funny to see a bagel sitting on an elegant Lenox plate (the others being on a plain kitchen plate): it reminds her of the contradictions of existence. We could go on this way. But I mean to rule out every one of these sourcesof qualitative specialnessin the description of the case. I insist on absolute qualitative homogeneity: the alternatives seem to her to differ in quantity only. And then, I believe, we do get the result Socrates wants. It is absurd. It would never happen; the motivating desires would never arise; nobody who really saw the choice that way would choose that way." What Socrates gets us to see, if we dig deep enough, is the connection between our akrasia problem and the way we ordinarily see things-the enabling role played by our belief in an incommensurable plurality of values in getting the problem going. Akrasia as we know and live it seems to depend upon the belief that goods are incommensurable and special: that this bagel, this person, this activity, though in some sense less good over all than its rival, has nonetheless a special kindof goodness that pulls us to it, a goodness that we could not get in just the same way by going in the other direction. It's one thing to be
" Cf. Wiggins, section VIII.

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unfaithful through passionatedesirefor a lover whom one seesas a special and distinct individual. But suppose him to be a clone of your present lover, differing qualitatively in no feature (and let us suppose not even in history-as would be true of lovers in the ideal city), and the whole thing somehow loses its appeal. We might say, then, returning to the premises, that if we really have HI and M, C falls out as a natural consequence (with a couple of residual exceptions that we shall take up later). C is not true as an empirical description of the workingsof desire. It does, however, appear plausible as a description of the desiresof agents who really believe to the bottom of their souls in the qualitative homogeneity of all of their alternatives. (For our case is, after all, only the shallowest beginning: what we ultimately must get ourselvesto imagine is that Phaedra seesevery oneof her choices this way, and that in every choice it is one and the same measure of value that she recognizes. There is no heterogeneity at all, even across cases.) The recognition of heterogeneity, the dialogue tells us, is a necessarycondition for the development of irrational motivations; in its absence, they will simply not develop; or, if once developed, will wither away. In short, I claim that Socrates offers us, in the guise of empirical description, a radical proposal for the transformation of our lives. He compares himself to the Prometheus of Protagoras'myth. Like the other gifts mentioned by Protagoras, this science of measurement will enter into and reshape the nature and attachments of the being who receives it. It is now not surprising that he tells us little about the intuitive acceptability of his proposed end: for it may not be something that can be properly assessed from our ordinary viewpoint. From our ordinary viewpoint, things do indeed, as Protagoras insisted, look plural and incommensurable. But our ordinary viewpoint leaves us in confusion:we want, and know we need, to assume the viewpoint of science. The founder of a science is not obliged to show that the science recapitulates the structure of ordinary belief in every way: for it would be surprising if any science worthy of the name were so conservative;and if it were it would not make a positive difference to our lives. This point is very well put by Sidgwick, after he has observed that the motivation for hedonism comes from the intractability of

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problems of choice, rather than from the common-sense plausibility of this choice of an end: But it must be borne in mind that Utilitarianism is not concerned to prove the absolute coincidence in results of the Intuitional and Utilitarian methods. Indeed, if it could succeed in proving as much as this, its success would be almost fatal to its practical claims; as the adoption of the Utilitarian principle would then become a matter of complete indifference. Utilitarians are rather called upon to show a natural transitionfrom the Morality of Common Sense to Utilitarianism, somewhat like the transition in special branches of practice from trained instinct and empirical rules to the technical method that embodies and applies the conclusions of science; so that Utilitarianism may be presented as the scientifically complete and systematicallyreflectiveformof that regulation of conduct, which through the whole course of human history has always tended substantially in the same direction."' So too for Socrates. Measurement is continuous with ordinary belief in that it fulfils an ideal of rationality embodied in ordinary belief: thus there is a natural transition from ordinary belief to scientific practice. To make this transition, clearly, science's choice of an end must also have somecontinuity with ordinary beliefs about ends: this is why pleasure is plausible as a candidate, while other conceivable choices, for example weight or length, would clearly be absurd. But the worth of the science as science is connected with its willingness to go beyond the ordinary and to transform it. III Plato never again puts forward this very same proposal for the ethical science. Pleasure proves unsalvageable as single standard, once examined further; and the qualitative homogeneity of all the different virtues is never again defended in exactly this way.'3 But we should not conclude from this that Plato loses interest in commensurability and its power to transformdesire and motivation. The best part of the soul, in the
12Methods ofEthics,7th edition (1907) 425; Crombie makes a similar point about Plato. 13On this see my book, ch. 4 and Interlude 2; also Irwin, PMT.

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middle dialogues, the one translators christen 'rational', is usually called by Plato the 'calculative', or even 'the one that has confidence in calculation and measurement' (Rep.603A). RepublicVII insists that any science (techne)or (scientific) understanding (episteme),insofar as it is that, must deal in numbering and measuring (522B ff.).Afortiorithis will be true of the ethical science of the philosopher rulers. And in fact, in the middle dialogues we find commensurability subtly present as a tool of ethical progress. Indeed we find even more explicit consideration of the issue of most interestto us, the way in which a belief in commensurabilityallegedly alters motivating desires and emotions--particularly, here, the emotions of love and grief. The Symposium recognizes, and shows, that human beings often lead disorderly and unsatisfactory lives because of the extent to which they are motivated by passionatelove. The lives are unsatisfactoryboth because of akrasiaand related problems and because of the vulnerability of the lover to accidents of loss, departure, betrayal. Diotima offersqualitative homogeneity as a remedy for both of these problems. I have analyzed her proposal at length in an article;but I shall recapitulate the main points before pursuing our question further.'4 First of all, we can observe that Socrates' preliminary argument with Agathon is valid only on the assumptionthat the kalonis all qualitatively homogeneous, beauties being distinct only in quantity and in spatio-temporal location. (It is a complicated matter to show this, and I shall not repeat myself here; but it is evidently true.)'"This argument, however, which turns our attention to commensurabilityas an issue,does not yet tell us what ethical work that idea is going to do. Diotima does tell us. In her account of the soul's development towards understanding and happy life, the idea of homogeneity plays,
" The article brings together the many ways in which Plato draws our attention to these problems and urges us to think that a life with them is not 'livable for a human being'. " 199E-201B. See my article, pp. 145-7. The main point is that from the assumptions and that a lover lacks that which she loves we cannot that a lover loves that which is kalon infer that the lover lacksthe kalon altogether--without assuming (1) that the object of the lover's love is the kalonof the person, and not the person who is kalon;and (2) that all manifestationsof the kalonare sufficientlylike one another in quality that if you lack one sort it is possible to conclude that you lack the kalonaltogether.

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explicitly, a crucial role. We begin with a young person whose life is both unstable and unhappy, a personwho is frequently led astray from other worthwhile pursuitsby the lure of passion, and who is 'enslaved' to the unique objectsof those passions,who are not always available to be happily loved. (The young Socrates, she tells us, was such a person (212C).) We now entrust this person to a 'correct' guide who will undertake to make his life 'livable' by offering a particular kind of teaching about the objects of love. This person will begin by loving a single beautiful body-or, more precisely, the beauty and value (the kalon,a notion much broader than 'beauty') of a single body. 'Then he must see that the kalonin any one body is closely related (adelphon) to the kalon in another body; and that if he must pursue the kalonof form, it is great mindlessnessnot to consider the kalonof all bodies to be one and the same' (210A5). First, then, he sees only the beauty or value of his loved one's body. Then he is asked to notice a or family-relatedcloseness between that value and other similarity values. this is the crucial step-he Then-and comparable decides that it is prudent to consider these related beauties to be 'one and the same', i.e. not just qualitatively close, but qualitatively homogeneous, interchangeable, instances of some one inclusive value. He then sees that he 'must set himself up as the lover of all kalonbodies, and relax his excessively intense passion for one body, looking down on that and thinking it of small importance' (210B). In other words, the consideration and motivating the move to commensurability is one ofprudence, the benefit of the move is a welcome change in the nature and intensity of the passion of love. It is mindless not to take the step from closeness to homogeneity because this step is so helpful to the personality, relaxing tensions that have become difficult to bear. At each subsequent stage, the aspiringlover learns to consider apparently heterogeneous values to be comparable and intersubstitutable, differing only in quantity. We hear talk about comparisons of size between one sort of value and another (210B6, 210C5), of a 'vast amount' of value (210D1). (Later Socrates will ascribe to Alcibiades the desire to 'make an exchange of kalonfor kalon'(218E)-and, since Socrates'kalonis 'entirely surpassing', Alcibiades stands accused of pleonexia,a

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First the value of bodies is compared greedy desire for more.)'" the and of souls found 'small';then vision is broadvalue against ened to take in the value of laws, institutions,and sciences.At last the lover, his vision 'turnedround' by education (cf. Rep.VII), is able to conceive of the whole of the kalonas a vast ocean, whose components are, like droplets, qualitatively indistinguishable: And looking towards the great extent of the kalon,he will of a particular no longer, like some servant, loving the kalon or a man or of one set of and being customs, particular boy the slave of this, remain contemptible and of no account. But turned towards the wide sea of the kalon and contemplating, he gives birth to many kalonand grand speeches and reasonings in his abundant love of wisdom. (210C7-D6) Diotima's speech is much more explicit than the Protagoras about the transformations of vision involved in learning commensurability, the extent to which this vision of the 'sea' is the achievement of a complex therapeutic processthat takesthe pupil, by gradual steps, far away from ordinary intuitive beliefs about love. (If we doubt this, Alcibiades, the unregeneratelover, shortly brings it home to us.) She is more explicit, too, about the commitments involved in the teaching: we are now told that we must see the beauty or value of bodies, souls, laws, institutions, and sciences, as all qualitatively homogeneous and intersubstitutable, differing only in quantity. Finally, she is explicit concerning the human results of the teaching. There will be a deep transformationof the emotional structureof love, so that it is no longer a source of distraction, disorder, and painful vulnerability. She connects the love of non-homogeneous particulars with tension, excess, and servitude, the love of the uniform 'sea' with health, freedom, and creativity. The lover who has achieved this unifying vision has a life that is 'livable', whereas before it was wretched and slavish (cf. 211DR).17
'6Two passagesare less clearly quantitative: 'more honorable'at 210B7, and 'gold for bronze' at 219A1. But both are compatible with a quantitative reading (gold is worth more on a single scale of financial measure;and it isjust what is at issuewhether differencesin honorableness are qualitative or only quantitative). So neither cuts against the preponderant evidence for a single quantitative scale. 17 Here I do not discuss the transition from the 'wide sea' to the unitary form;see my article, 149-50.

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It is difficultto get clear about the relationshipof this proposal to the Protagoras science, since it remains unclear how far the kalonin this dialogue is a unifying general notion of value. At the very least, we are being asked to see different instantiations of one very important value as all qualitatively homogeneous; but since 'kalon'is used as interchangeable with 'agathon' (201C2 states that (all) agathaare kala, and the biconditional is required for the argument at 201C4-5), there may actually be a single unifying value in terms of which we are ultimately to see the special values such as justice and wisdom. But whatever is true on that issue, it is clear that the kalonis supposed to include everything that is relevant to the experience of passionate love--everything, then, that human beings find lovable in the world. And it is clear that a belief in the homogeneity of the science, profoundlyaltersour emotional kalon,like the Protagoras and motivational relationshipto the world. The aspiring lover is not assuming a fashionable ethical decision strategy as a theoretical posture that leaves the important things of daily life essentially unchanged. Diotima demands more than lip-service; she wants the belief in homogeneity to penetrate to the bottom of the soul, transforming the whole vision of the world. It is a startling and powerful vision. Just try to think it the seriously:this body of this wonderfulbeloved personis exactly same in quality as that person's mind and inner life. Both, in turn, the same in quality as the value of Athenian democracy;of Pythagorean geometry; of Eudoxan astronomy. What would it be like to look at a body and to see in it exactly the same shade and tone of goodness and beauty as in a mathematical proofthe same, differingonly in amount and in location, so that exactly the choice between making love with that person and contemplating that proof presented itself as a choice between having n measures of water and having n + 100? Again, what would it be like to see in the mind and soul of Socrates nothing else but (a smaller amount of) the quality that one also sees in a good system of laws, so that the choice between conversingwith Socrates and administering those laws was, in the same way, a matter of qualitative indifference?What would it be, finally, to see not just each single choice, but all choices (or at least all choices involving love and deep attachment) as similarly unvariegated? These proposals are so bold as to be pretty well

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incomprehensible from the ordinary point of view. We can perhaps, though with difficulty, get ourselves, in imagination, into the postureof seeing bodies as qualitativelyinterchangeable with one another-because we have, or can imagine having, relevant experiences of promiscuity or of non-particularized sexual desire.(Indeed, we might even say that non-particularized sexual desire will be the only experience most of us unregenerate cave-dwellers have of what Diotima wants, namely, a powerful longing that treatsall of the individualizing traitsof the object as irrelevant. So, ironically, loveless sex could be a useful form of training for Platonic love."8) We might even imagine the interchangeability of souls,helped by a religiousheritageaccordingto which we are all equally, and centrally, children of God. We might even try putting these two together,to get a thoroughgoing interchangeability of persons; and we can see how that sort of replaceability would indeed subvert motivations for certain troublesome and disorder-producingacts. (Think of Epictetus' profound observation that if Menelaus had been able to think of Helen as just another woman, 'gone would have been the Iliad, and the Odyssey as well'.) But the wide sea of the kalonis beyond us. We sense only that to see in this way, if one could do it, would indeed change the world. We can comprehend the extent to which it would erode the motivationfor runningafterAlcibiades, for devotingoneselfto a particularbelovedperson,even forloving one city above all other things. The lover, seeing a flat uniform landscape of value, with nojagged promontoriesor deep valleys, will have few motivations for moving here rather than there on that landscape. Even if we allow the argument to stop short of the unitary form, we can see how likely it is that some form of contemplative life would be preferred over more concrete practical engagements. And we can certainly see how any life that was selected from that point of view would be both calmer (less prone to akratic disruption) and more secure than our empirical lives: for the departure of one droplet mattersfar less to the lover of the ocean than the loss of a lover to the unregenerate. We can see, furthermore, how not only passionate love but
8 I owe this observation to Joel Feinberg. I make a related point about Republic VIII in my ch. 7. and the first two speeches of the Phaedrus

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also other emotions, such as grief and fear, would be affected:for what reasonsfor grief will such a personhave in a death or a loss? And if love is not unstable, and there are no reasons for grief, what bad things are there to fear? Plato insists on this in the the proper attitude towards the world removes reasons Republic: for both grief and fear. The literature of the ideal city will not be permitted to depict Achilles mourning the death of Patroclus,or any other case of a good person feeling personal grief; it will leave such retrograde emotions, and their expression, to 'women, and not very good women at that'. Plato sees clearly how thoroughly our storiesrest on beliefs about specialness that threaten the wise person'semotional equanimity; and his purge of literature is deeply bound up with his desire to reform these
emotions. 1

IV
We now see something of the emotional transformation that commensurability brings about. And we are clear by now that this transformation is no mere incidental consequence of its adoption, but one of the most important motivations for going beyond our ordinary beliefs in this way.2"Now we must begin to ask questions. They will be of three types. Is Plato's idea logically/metaphysically coherent? Is it psychologically plausible? And is it ethically desirable? Coherence first. We must take very seriouslythe fact that every property of objects relevant to practical motivation will be homogenized qualitatively with every other. (The Protagoras recognizes only one ethically salient property; in the Symposium only one is relevant to love, and this, as we said, comes to much the same thing.)" Now the question is, what is left of objectsand persons in this scheme? Everything about an object or person
'9These issuesare furtherdiscussed in ch. 6 and especially Interludes 1 and 4, where I discuss Plato's criticism of literary art and Aristotle'sreply (with special referenceto fear and pity). 20One very important motivation for following his suggestion is surely the example of Socrates, whose life and character exemplify the benefits of ascent. "2 It is much less clear what is true in the Republic; a good answer would require an account of the Form of the Good, which I do not intend to attempt here. The kalonis sometimes discussed as one value among others; but there is also great stress on At any rate, it is clear (cf. numbering and calculating as hallmarks of practical episteme. below) that persons are supposed to be interchangeable in their value with one another-'all alike and friends'.

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that counts for desire and action is flattened out into the 'wide sea'. So what is left for the body or person to be? What individuates it, enables us to refer to it, trace it through time, identify and reidentifyit? Our Phaedra example clearly did not go far enough, for it allowed bagels to be different from plates and persons,for example, and from laws and proofs, in all sorts of individuating and potentially significant ways. In reality, what the good agent will see is just a map on which the value areas are colored a uniform shade of blue, and marked off only from parts of the world's landscape in which none of the valuable is to be found. A body, a person, will seem to be nothing but a pure container or location for a certain quantity of value. To see it as being more is to introduce, potentially, the motivational complications that this scheme wishes to avoid. But is this enough to give us a definite object to love, to speak about? Is it even enough for us to continue regardingourselvesas definite subjects? Plato is notoriously evasive about what Aristotle would call the issue of the substrate;it is no surpriseto find him less than clear about the definite this-nessof personsor bodies, about what they in their nature areand continue being, as they go on through time and change, as opposed to the propertiesthey merely have.Indeed it is notorious that his use of and neuter expressions such as 'to kalon', in the Symposium elsewhere, is often ambiguous between the property of some object and the object itself, characterized as having that property. We can now see, however, one ethical route that may have led Plato into this thicket. For under a radical and thoroughgoing belief in commensurability it is not evident that a metaphysically serviceable distinction between substrateand property will be forthcoming. For if we reservesome items to be (the essential nature of) the object in question, as distinct from the value propertiesthat it has, and if these items are in any way thick or interesting enough to provide an adequate foundation for practices of individuating and identifying, then we will run the risk of finding them practically relevant or salient in a way that sets the object off from the homogeneous value that objects have; but this contradicts the descriptionof the world embodied in the doctrine of commensurability. For example, suppose we say that what Alcibiades is, as opposed to the value of body/soul that he has, is the functional organization of a living body. Then

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the measuring scientist will immediately want to know, is functional organization itself potentially a lovable or valuable or practically interesting thing, a thing that could ever be more than a matter of indifference?If the answer is 'yes' (and it must surely be yes), then it turns out that we will not be permitted to distinguish it from the value properties that he has, after all: it must be homogeneous with that value. But anything for which the answer will truly be 'no' (his bare location at t? his moment of birth?) is likely to be too thin to carry the metaphysicalweight of being (to use Aristotelian language) 'exactly what Alcibiades is'. All this is not yet a knock-down argument against commensurability. It does warn us, however, that commensurability had better work on this problem, especially if it wants to claim to bring benefits to persons. And it prepares us to find that the world as seen in the metaphysics of commensurability may not look like the ordinary world of distinct objects and relatively enduring continuants. We must be prepared to find that the adoption of this belief might bring resultsso radical that they would alter our whole view of what a thing is, of what we are; and we should demand of any social theorist who professes this belief an account of how these transformationsare going to go and what coherent world order will result. Quite a few contemporary theorists have not yet undertaken this challenge. Now for plausibility. Is it even remotely likely that any agent will ever live in the world who thinks and acts like this? There are at least two questions here. First, is it possible to bring up an agent for whom the belief in commensurability is deep and thoroughgoing enough to satisfy Plato? And, second, are there some desires in the human being that are not responsiveto belief at all? Concerning the first question, we wonder whether the earliest experiences of human children in the world don't teach them that some objectsare special and specially lovable?A child nurses at the mother's breast. Later, it finds itself surrounded with special objects that form the context of its life and are cherished as its own. It learns to single out its own parents, friends, home, clothing, city, from all other similar items. It is exposed to literary works that reinforcethese perceptions.Once development has proceeded along these lines, it will not be

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possible, perhaps, for the Platonic philosopher to come along and teach commensurability. Or if the teaching is successfulit will be so only at a much more superficiallevel, as it is for many modern utilitarians:it will be a formal way of speakingthat will not very much alter the nature of daily perceptions. has nothing to say about these problems. The The Protagoras indicate does that the training involved in the ascent Symposium takes considerable time and effort;but it proceedsas if one could take an adult citizen trained in the ordinary way and, over shows us that time, produce Diotima's result. But the Republic Plato has not neglected our issue. In order that the citizens of the ideal city should regard themselves, their friends, and their property as all interchangeable and not special, Plato sees that there must be a profound restructuring of early human experience, beginning, in fact, with the experience of the breast. Babies are farmed out to nurses and denied the opportunity to form a special bond with the mother as nurturer, the father as authority. (Only worries about incest prevent the commensurability of persons from being total: they do learn to single out for special treatment.) As they grow they will not that generation have or see private property; nor will they know of works of literature that teach the specialness of persons, the irreplaceability of loved objects. We can hardly say whether these psychological devices would succeed, since they have never been practised; and even in fiction they have (outside the Republic) been imagined only in a relatively crude and biased manner. But we can say at least that Plato saw the depth of the problem and with powerful imagination pursued his idea through in rich detail. He saw, too, an obstacle to full success: in the unregenerate privacy of the body, the fact that, no matter how interchangeable everything else becomes there still remains the fact that the sensations of this piece of flesh have a connection with me that is altogether different from the connection I have with this other piece of fleshover there. The Lawstells us that the teachers of the young will do whatever lies in their power to undermine this special love of something irreduciblyone's own: The notion of the private will have been by hook or by crook completely eliminated from life. Everythingpossible will have been done to make common in some way even

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what is by nature private, like eyes and hands, in the sense that they seem to see and hear and act in common. (739CD) It is a formidable problem. With this mention of the body's recalcitrance we come to our second question. Are there some human desires that are not responsive to belief, so that they will continue to assert themselves despite the best education in commensurability? Plato is convincing when he claims that emotions such as love, grief, and fear have a deep connection with and reliance upon belief, such that a change in belief about what is valuable, lovable, or interesting will effect a transformation of those attitudes. But is the same thing true of hunger and thirst?The view of the Protagoras suggests that it is. Once I come to regard my eating and drinking as forming part of a unified calculus of goodness with, e.g., just and courageous action, I will be stopped from the special sort of attitude towards food and drink that makes akrasia possible. The Republicappears to modify this view. The appetite for food and drink is held in Book IV to be an 'unqualifieddesire', i.e. one unresponsiveto teaching concerning the good; it must, then, be trained notjust by the general scheme of education, but by specifically non-rational techniques of suppression.22It is likely that a belief in the thoroughgoing commensurability of value would not, in fact, leave our behavior with respect to food and drink unaffected. For to change the evaluative component of these practices(the element of taste and selectivity, the search for novelty and specialness) is surely to diminish their power to disturb a life. The number of people who eat and drink akratically merely in order to pile in an increased quantity of food and drink is far smaller than the number of those who are akratic with respect to food and drink. Glaucon was surely right when he connected disorderly appetitive behavior with the search for luxury and specialness; in the 'city of pigs' (in a community of animals) there is no akrasia, despite the existence of the bodily appetites.23Plato,
72 (1975) 205-220. 22See Irwin; and G. Watson, 'Free Agency', Journalof Philosophy 23Compare Epicurus' diagnosis of unruly appetitive behavior as resulting from false beliefs about value and need. Natural appetitive need is moderate, easily satisfied with whatever is at hand.

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IV, that then, seems right to acknowledge, as he does in Republic the bodily appetites do differ in structurefrom the emotions and may continue to be problematic even when the emotions are under control. But he also seems right in thinking that commensurability makes the problem far less disturbing, and hardly grave at all. Plato's attitude to the sexual appetite is more complicated. At times he does indeed treat it as one more bodily appetite, which will exert its pull regardlessof our beliefs about objects.24 But he recognizes and stresses the extent to which our beliefs and perceptions concerning objects alter the workings of this appetite. Sex is not a moral problem for the good pupil of Diotima: his appetites themselves appear to be affected by his new view of the bodies and souls of others. The same appetitive energy that once led Socrates towards young boys now goes into Alcibiades does not arousehim. At 'intercourse'with the form.25 the first stage of the ascent, his desire for all attractive bodies will, we said, be something like ordinary non-particularized sexual longing. But once intellectual objects are seen to be possessedof the same thing that bodies have, only more so, the natural result is that most of his eroswill channel itselfin this new direction, leaving very little for the bodies that were once prized. The residue will not be enough to be disturbing. Indeed, it is a little hard to know how the guardian class would reproduce itself, except by acquiring the ability that Augustine, in the City of God,ascribesto our first parent before the fall (XIV.24). This one appetite, then, seems thoroughly educable; and it is clearly this appetite that Plato believes to pose the greatest problem for human good living. There is one more irrationaldesire that Plato never considers. He never entertains the thought that there may be in human beings a desire simply to act in a perverse and irrational way. For in describing Phaedra's situation we have ignored the possibility that she will eat the single bagel just in order to go
the and in Socrates' first speech in the Phaedrus; 2 This seems to be true in the Republic and Philebus give a more complex account. On Socrates' second speech in the Symposium see below. Phaedrus, for the love of boys at 211D6, for intercoursewith the 25Cf. Diotima's use of suneinai form at 212A2; at 211D she suggests that Socrates will find himself inflamed with longing not for boys and clothing and money, but for his intellectual object.

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against good reasons, to show that she is not bound by reasons, or goodness, or anything else. In Notes from Underground Dostoyevsky suggests that one of the great defects of a Socratic picture of akrasia is its neglect of this desire, in which he sees the basis for human freedom."6 We cannot go into this deeply here; but we can say that it is deeply questionable whether an agent who really had the thoroughgoing Platonic belief in commensurability could have, at the same time, the basis for this desire. For it seems to require a conception of the specialnessof the self, and its radical separateness from its surrounding world, that would be unavailable to such a Platonic agent. What may have been a good argument against Russian consequentialists seems less appropriate against Plato's more radical and thoroughgoing proposal. We can conclude that Plato's account of the psychology of commensurability is complex and deep; if he leaves many questions open, at least he pressesall the right questions. And if we are not convinced that a total change in human psychology can be brought about by the teaching he describes,still he shows that it could effect some remarkablealterations. Now we might wonder about the positive motivational question: in getting rid of so much, what motivations has Plato left us with to propel our ethical lives?Aristotle contends in the Politicsthat Plato's denial of qualitative specialnessto personsand objects has undermined the strongest sources of human motivation to choose good and virtuous action: 'There are two things that above all make human beings care and love, the thought that something is your own and the thought that it is the only one you have; neither of which will be present in the citizens of that city' (1262 b22-4). Plato's image is of a stream of motivational energy flowing forth from the soul that will remain unchanged in quantity and intensity, and will just be spread around differently over the available objects. Aristotle answers that to take away the specialness of close personal attachment makes all attachment and all motivation weak and diffuse. We will have agents who are impotent in more than the sexual sense. This seems to be a
26 This passage was very well discussed,in connection with both Plato and Aristotle, in a Ph.D. Thesis by the late Eunice Belgum, Harvard 1976. See also the fine article on and Literature Dostoyevsky and Russian Consequentialism by Julia Annas, Philosophy 1976-7.

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strong objection to Plato; and it is one that Plato himselftakesto heart. I believe, and argue elsewhere, that in the Phaedrus Plato concedes this point, granting that intense erotic love of a particular person, seen as that and not as a replaceable piece of the kalon,plays a central role in motivating us to grow ethically and to pursue our search for true beauty and goodness-not only at a stage, but throughout our lives. Indeed I believe he goes further still: he allows that this specialnessof responseto a value as well, giving us information beloved person is of cognitive about the nature of true beauty and about excellences of character, information that we could not have gotten without this sort of intimacy and its associated beliefs. Finally, we must ask about the goal of all of this. Is the condition of self-sufficiencyand stability that Plato achieves by his stratagem a valuable condition of the person,and is the life of such a person a good and valuable human life?A life embracing everything of true intrinsic value? Plato's own ambivalence on this question expresses itself in the structure of the Symposium itself, where, as I have argued elsewhere, the speech of Alcibiades, with its portrayal of a uniquely personal love, at once motivates the ascent and calls it into question. And I believe that the Phaedrusalso defends the intrinsic value of personal love, defending both qualitative specialness and inviolable personal separatenessin a way that is foreign to, and expresses a criticism of, Diotima's teaching. Plato's use of the plant as the central metaphor for the aspiring person's soul suggests that he now believes that there are certain sorts of beauty and value that are inseparablefromvulnerability to loss, and that self-sufficiencyis not an appropriateend for an ethical theory to aim at. Grief and passionate love return in their humanly recognizable form, and the best human life becomes one that is not free of certain ordinary tensions and risks. But the appeal of commensurability is very deep; and thereforethe end that it promisesneeds continued probing. It is important for our contemporary ethical inquiries to do this probing. A brief consultation with untutored intuition is hardly enough to satisfyPlato's demands. For it seems implausible that any such procedure could be fair to a proposal of this radical nature. It is hard to know what else to do. It raises profound questions of ethical method. But Plato has, I believe, shown us

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the way. To show us the benefits of his science, one of his strategies is to show us how it takes us beyond certain miseries depicted in literature. To ask our questions about his picture of value, we might, then, try to continue this line of imagining, conducting our own Platonic examination of cherished literary works of our day, asking how much of what makes them compelling to us as depictions of human value would survive in the world of the commensurable, and how they would have to be reformed to be admitted into a curriculum that trained pupils for this world. I attempted this, in fact, with a section of Henry James. The results were interesting, and I would have reproduced them here had I not already exceeded my limit of space. (Suffice it to point out that Plato is right when he holds that a change in view about value requiresa change not only in of literature, but also in its style.) the content A second and equally important strategy suggested in Plato is the detailed fictional imagining of lives lived both outside and inside of the science of measurement.When, in the Symposium, he follows Diotima's speech with the speech of Alcibiades;when, in the Republic, he describesevery minute circumstance of the new lives he envisages;when, in the Phaedrus, he vividly describesthe lives and feelings of ratherdifferentpeople, showing us the value of that-in all these cases Plato seems to me to be doing the sort of tough work of imagination that is required for anyone who is going to make an informed choice in this matter. We need to follow his lead. We need not just philosophical examples (which contain only a few features that the philosopher has decided are of greatest relevance to his argument);we also need novels about the whole way of life of people who really think and live the life of commensurability; about how they got there and how they now deal both with others and with themselves.27We need to allow these works, and other works about people who live and value differently, to address us not just in and through the intellect, but by evoking non-intellectual responses that have their own kind of selectivity and veracity. Any social theory that recommends or uses a quantitative measure of value without first exercising imagination along these lines seems to me to be
27Of course we need as well-before we begin this part of the job-to compare the different types of commensurability invoked in contemporary theory with Plato's various proposals. I am obviously not attempting this here.

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In theLaws,the EleaticStranger tells thoroughly irresponsible. us that one of the greatestobstacles to goodpoliticalpracticeis that many people lightly believe different things to be when they really are not so. This lack of commensurable seriousness about the issue of commensurability he calls 'a conditionnot humanbut more appropriate to certainswinish whichhe declareshimself'ashamed not creatures', concerning on own but also on behalf of all Greeks' behalf, only my (819D). The condition may be more widespreadthan his remark suggests.

PLATO ON COMMENSURABILITY AND DESIRE Martha C. Nussbaum and Rosalind Hursthouse II-Rosalind Hursthouse PLATO ON THE EMOTIONS'
Plato claims that anything worthy of the name of techneor must involve numbering and measuring; given that episteme ethical knowledge is clearly for him worthy of such names, it may seem that he must have envisaged a mathematical ethics while unfortunately leaving it quite unclear what he thought it would look like. He would not have been alone in so doing-Locke and Leibniz also claim that ethical knowledge, when deserving of the name, is or would be mathematical, and leave us with no helpful examples of such knowledge. But it is possible that Locke at least has in mind no more than the expectation that ethical knowledge is aprioriand deductive, and it may plausibly be argued2 that Plato's expectations are not a great deal more specific. He no doubt believes that ethical knowledge involves knowledge of correct proportions and measures and (thereby?) harmony, in some way analogous to of music, but we need not envisage the epistemon as what the techne we would call a mathematician. However, ProfessorNussbaum reads explicitly arithmetical significance into Plato's talk of weighing and measuring;one of which Plato envisages would her claims is that the ethical techne involve actually quantitative knowledge of (all) ethical values, such as the knowledge that contemplating that proofnow is, say, exactly twice, or one-and-a-half times, or one tenth as much again, as good as something else. Suppose we distinguish this sort of 'quantitative' commensurability from what can be called 'comparative' commensurability. The latter would guarantee determinate 'more', 'less', 'equally' (good, pleasurable, im'I am grateful to Ronald Condon, Philippa Foot and Michael Kelar forcomments on an earlier draft of this paper. I wish I had had the time to meet more of their criticisms. 2 See, for example J. C. B. Gosling, Plato (London, Routledge & Kegan Paul, 1973), Chap. VII.

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portant) judgements (in the way that the akrasiaargument in the Protagorasis generally agreed to require3) but not the quantitative arithmetical judgements. I do not think that Nussbaum gives us any reason to ascribe the idea of quantitative commensurabilityto Plato, but since nothing she says about the radical effectsof the belief in commensurabilityseems to depend on its being so bizarrely arithmetical, I think this particular claim can be put to one side. Plato also believes that ethical knowledge, or an ethical science, would 'save our lives', transforming our passions4as well as our decision making. I think there is clearly some sensein which he was quite right to believe this, a sense that is given a much more precise specification by Aristotle. But Nussbaum places a belief in commensurability at the heart of this ethical science-an idea that she eventually describesas psychologically implausible, ethically undesirable and of dubious metaphysical coherence-and thereby makes Plato out to be much less of a genuinely instructive moral philosopher and much further removed from Aristotle than I myself take him to be. I doubt that this belief is central to Plato's 'life-saving' project, and of the although indeed he does offer interesting transformations not we need that a belief in commensurability suppose passions, is what he claims does the work, rather than simply ethical knowledge. So I shall begin by arguing that the belief in commensurability cannot be ascribed to Plato, or even to Socrates, on the basis of the Protagoras,which is where Nussbaum claims to find it. I shall then turn to discussingPlato on the passions.
I

in theProtagoras. Theakrasia Clearly Plato believes that argument for is sufficient of the effectingradical change in good knowledge of our lives, but equally clearly he believes that only knowledge There are the good would effect the right changes. perhapsmany beliefs that would transformour passions, but they would not
3See David Wiggins, 'Weakness of Will, Commensurability, and the Objects of Deliberation and Desire,' in Proc.Artist.Soc.79 (1978-9), 251-77, repr. in A. Rorty, ed., Ethics (University of California Press, 1980) 241-66; and M. F. Essays on Aristotle's Burnyeat, 'Aristotle on Learning to be Good,' ibid, 69-92. I shall use 'passion'as the token translationofpathos (emotionor appetite) throughout.

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thereby be shown to be (part of) an ethical science and, in particular, a belief in a single scale of values would have to be a belief in the right scale if it were to be at the heart of any such science. But Nussbaum puts no emphasis on correctness; none of the radical effects the belief in commensurability is claimed to have depend on the single scale's being the right one. If were indeed an advertiseSocrates' argument in the Protagoras ment for its premises, as she claims, then it would be an advertisement for pleasure as the only good, with, moreover, nothing said about what sort of pleasure is at issue. It is no doubt true, as the bagel case illustrates, that someone who deliberated only in terms of a single scale of physical pleasure would be much less troubled by akrasiathan the rest of us, but this can hardly be what Socrates is recommending. Why does Nussbaum not require that the single scale of values be the right scale?This surprisingfeature of her account can be traced, I think, to her conviction that akrasia exists simply because agents believe that goods are incommensurable, rather than, say, because we can be moved to act by passionor reason and the two are not always in harmony. So convinced is she that it is belief in incommensurability that is the culprit that she forgets to maintain that it is knowledge that is supposed to save my life; on her account of the Protagoras argument, it is not an advertisement for knowledge at all. Closely following Irwin,5 Nussbaum identifies the premises of Socrates' argument more or less6as follows: H: A believes that pleasure is identical with the good (the hedonism premise). M: Whenever A chooses between x and y, she values them by a single measure (the measure of value premise). C: Whenever A chooses x over y she chooses it because she values x more than y (the prudence premise).
5Terence Irwin, Plato'sMoral Theory (Oxford University Press, 1977) Chap. IV, 2.7. 61 prefer M in Irwin's form, since it avoids the unnecessary complication of quantitative commensurability. I prefer C in more or less Irwin's form, since Nussbaum's 'if (rather than Irwin's 'When ... because .. .') has at least one odd consequence, namely that if I do not choose x over y, then I do not believe x to be more valuable than y. But I might well believe that immortality is more valuable than mortality and yet not choose (pursue) immortality for obvious reasons.

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The conclusion that Socrates claims comes from these premises is that akrasia could not occur-butjust how is that conclusion to be construed? Let us agree on the existence of a phenomenon and give it a name. Some of us know what it is to be unfaithful to one's lover and feel terrible about it afterwards,or to try to go on a diet or give up smoking and fail. If we haven't been through this sort of experience ourselves, we have seen others go through it. Let us call it 'the akratic experience'. About this experience, three things can be said: 1) It occurs in our lives. 2) None of us want it in our lives because it is disruptive and frequently causes real misery. 3) We are pre-philosophically inclined to describe the experience as choosing y because of being overcome by pleasure or desire, despite knowing that x is better than y overall. A possibleconsequence of (3) would be that we think knowledge of the good, or of what is better than what, isn't all that much use. 'There's no point in telling me that I'll regretthis tomorrow, or that I'm ruining my health,' people say. 'I know that, but the knowledge doesn't make any difference; it's of no use to me.' Now is Socratesdenying (1), the occurrenceof the experience, or is he saying that we are wrong to describe the experience as in According to Nussbaum, he is doing the former, arguing from empirically unacceptable premises to the empirically unacceptable conclusion that people don't ever go on diets and fail, or commit adultery and feel remorseful afterwards. She then defends him by maintaining that this apparent idiocy has a point-to give us a reasonfor making the premisestrue of us. By (2) none of us want this experience in our lives, however described, and the argument advertisesits premisesas the cure. I see no reasonfor taking this line ratherthan the obvious one, that Socrates is not denying the occurrenceof the experience but is denying that it is to be described as in (3). The point of the argument is to advertise, not its premises, but knowledge. He and Protagoras were agreed (352bl-d3) that knowledge is

(3)?

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sufficient to determine conduct, but it looked as though the desirability of this product they had to offer was going to be called into question by the putative fact, believed by the many, that even when you had knowledge it often wasn't any use, there wasn't any point in having it, because it got dragged around. The argument aims to re-establish knowledge as something worth having. Even if Nussbaum were granted her interpretation of what Socrates is doing, she could still not show that his argument is an advertisementfor the belief in commensurability. If the argument is an advertisement for its premises, it is an advertisementfor all of them. I have already commented on the oddity of construing it as an advertisement for hedonism, but I now want to consider it as an advertisementfor C, the prudence premise. Supposedly Socrates' claim is 'Make C and the two premises that make up the belief true of yourself, and the disruptiveakratic experience will cease to occur in your life.' But the difficulty here is that C seems to be enough to eliminate the experience on its own-as Irwin's name for it suggests. C is the peculiarly Socratic assumptionabout choices or desires,namely that they are always guided by beliefs about comparative value, i.e. they are rational, or, as Irwin calls them, 'good-dependent'; and if indeed they all were, instead of some of them being blind appetites or passions, and non-rational, we would not have the sort of conflict that is so characteristic of the akratic experience. Instead of recognising that C on its own would eliminate the akratic experience, Nussbaum tries to make the other two premises relevant by maintaining that C is a 'natural' consequence of them. By this I take it she means that, although clearly H and M do not entail C, neverthelessif an agent makes H and M true of herself, it will come about as a natural effect that C is true of her too. This is supposedly shown by the Phaedra case; but the reason that Nussbaum finds it so hard to attach any sense to Phaedra's akratically eating one bagel rather than two is that she has already assumed that C is true, i.e. that Phaedra's choice must be rational in some way. If we remember that C is falsified by the existence of non-rational desires, it is easy enough to construct explanations of Phaedra's breakdown in rationality; all we need to do is think of an

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appropriate blind desire or passion. So, for instance, nauseashe knows she ought to eat two but her stomach rebels and she eats the one; or fear-she has what she knows is a completely irrational phobia about bagels; or utter exhaustion-she just cannot summon up the energy, though knowing she should. Although, as I remarked above, someone who really believed and deliberated in terms of a single scale of physical pleasures would be much lesstroubled by akrasiathan the rest of us, it still hasn't been ruled out.
II

Plato on the passions. By what means does Plato think that knowledge of the good is going to save our lives, enabling us to live well, to flourish or be happy? Clearly one means is going to be by affecting our passions. This presupposestwo theses about our passions,both of which are much more complicated than at first they appear. One is that our passionsneed to be modified in at least some ways if we are to live well; the second is that they can be appropriately modified-that they are in some way responsiveto knowledge of the good. These must be explored in turn. Why do any of our passions need to be modified if we are to live well? How do they prevent us fromdoing so?I shall consider three differentpossible ways, dismissingthe first, and discussing with respect to the other two how they can be affectedby ethical knowledge. Nussbaum says that the ethical science is supposed to save our lives by freeing us from the pains and turmoil of such vexing passionsas griefand fear, suggestingthat merely being subjectto these passions prevents us from living well. But although knowledge of the good is clearly supposed to free us fromcertain pains and tensions, I doubt that Plato can possiblyhave thought that the virtuous live free from grief and fear. He says, after all, that it is right to fear slavery more than death (Rep.387b) and we can think of further examples. The good person should fear, more than others do, the sort of disease which destroys virtue, such as prematuresenility or constant pain beyond what human beings can bear, both for himself and for his (virtuous)friends. The threat of nuclear holocaust can make vivid for us what could only be a myth for Plato-the thought that the remnants

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of the human race might be returned to the state where they need the gods to bring them fire, conscience and justice all over again--and this would surely be a fearful prospect for any lover of the Good. I am not even sure that Plato claims that the virtuous are necessarilyless subject to these vexing passionsthan anyone else. It is true that he claims that the good man will grieve less than others over the loss of a son, or friend, or any other 'prized possession'(Rep.387d and 603e); in general because the virtuous man is 'most self-sufficient', in particular because 'he does not think death to be a dreadful thing for another good man, his friend'. But these claims can be given a more and a less plausible interpretation. Plausibly, the self-sufficientgood man is better armed against the loss of his friends, family and other things he loves than, say, someone who has made the mistake of trying to live well through the wealth and power of their spouse and the handsomeness of their sons. In particular, the good person can derive a comfort from the fact that their friend died honourably which is denied to someone who doesn't care about that and can see the death only as a dreadful thing. But what if the good man's friend dies horribly and without honour?What if he loses the just society in which he flourished, the intellectual work on which he was engaged and the only friends with whom he could discuss important matters?It would be absurd to claim that in these circumstances the good person, armed by virtue against grief, will grieve less than others, but, given the plausible interpretation, there is no reason to ascribe this absurd view to Plato. If it is not our being prey to such distressing passions as grief and fear that prevents us from living well, perhaps the way that our passions prevent this is by leading us to act badly (thereby If our pleasuresand preventing us from doing well (euprattein)). us to our pains guided naturally good (as, according to Aristotle, those of the other animals do) perhaps there would be no need for us to modify our passions, but alas they do not. Fear can lead one to act badly by leading one to run away when one should stand and fight, and love can lead to all manner of unjustacts, so these passions need to be modified in some way. But what way? I have never found, though I should like to, a deep account of

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the obviously enormous difference that our possession of language makes to those passionsthat we share with animals. It is easy to say what would have to be discussed in such an account-our capacity to feel about the past and future for instance, and the possibility of our distinguishing between good and bad grounds for a passion--but hard to see how such points should be woven together. Still, we can at least see that one differencethat language makes is that our possessionof it makes possible a great range of new objects for the passions.Where we contrast ourselves with the other animals in terms of language, Plato does so in termsof reason. So supposeone thought of things the following way.7 We share at least some of our passionswith unreasoning animals. It could be that these passions are unregenerately animal and hence worthless to us as rational creatures, or even harmful (an idea I shall return to below). But it could also be that reason has the alchemical ability to transform them into passions that no creature lacking reason could have-passions peculiarly appropriate for rational creatures.Reason does this by providing rational objectsfor the passions. Now for all that has just been said, it could well be that the passions thus modified by reason were particularly bad. Animals cannot take pleasure in philosophy, but nor can they enjoy the sadistic refinements of torturing. But Plato in effect assumesthat reasoncan do no wrong. The objects it providesare in some sense good objects, supplied by knowledge of the good, so that when the passionsare thus modified they guide us to our good-to doing well. On Nussbaum's view, fear is modified only indirectly. 'If love is not unstable and there are no reasonsfor grief, what bad things are there to fear?' she asks, and the natural response is-well, the very things that prompt us and the animals to run away, namely death and pain. What I see as striking in Plato is the proposal for a direct modification of fear wherein the objects of animals' fear are replaced by objects provided by knowledge of the good, i.e. slavery or defeat in battle (Rep.386b, 387b) or, more generally, the shameful (aischros).
7I am grateful to Gavin Lawrence for showing me the importance of thinking this way about Plato's and Aristotle's ethics.

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Fear is an outstandingly successfulexample of how reason in us can radically transforma passionwe share with animals. How very unlike the other animals we are when we endure agony and risk our lives for freedom and truth or are terrified by vivavoce examinations; when we are ready to die for glory or tremble at the prospect of humiliation and shame. A passion that in the other animals is essentially connected to physical self-preservation can be transformedin us into a passion connected with the preservationof what is best in us, and yet it remainsrecognisably the same passion. How successful are other examples? in Plato, is Anger, though hard to separatefrom spirit (thumos) also given its own object. We could describe anger in animals as an aggressive reaction to physical harm, also connected to selfpreservation. Transformed anger in us has as its object harm or injury particularly done to one's better self. This makes it possible to refrainfrom inflicting harm when unmodified anger would have prompted one towards injustice. Someone who inflicts hunger on mejustlyis not thereby harming my better self; I am not wronged, and my modified anger will not be roused (Rep.440c). Grief is a less clear example. Although Plato certainly thinks that animals feel anger (Rep. 441b) I do not know whether he thinksthey feel grief. In any case, grief does not in fact stand in need of much modification since, powerful as it is, it tends to inhibit action (Rep.607c) rather than characteristically leading us to action, and hence has little tendency to lead us astray. Its proper object, as I suggested above, would be loss of what is truly precious and hence its modification will be closely connected to the modification of love. Plato's proposal for love (eros) is indeed radical;far too radical I think, to make sense. The objects of the untransformedanimal is to replace passion are sexual, andjust as the shameful (aischros) death and pain as the object of fear, so the fine and honourable (kalon)is supposed to replace attractive bodies as the object of love. It is true that we can say, as we do in the case of fear, how very unlike the other animals we are when we passionately love philosophy, or become brides of Christ or come to find the mere thought of the sexual act that animals love so disgusting or peculiar that we cannot do it. Indeed, we are thereby very unlike the other animals-but in virtue of having suppressedor eliminated sexual passion from our lives, not in virtue of having

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transformedit. A passionatelove of beauty or philosophyor God is not the peculiarly human form of an animal passion, but something quite different. It might be thought that the objects of love are not sexually attractive bodies but beautiful (kalon)bodies, and hence that love is, by its very nature, a passion that only creatures with reason, able to grasp the idea of the beautiful, can feel. But animals do feel it (207a6-b6) and according to the Symposium, even if we discounted that passage, there must still be somepassion that will stand in need of modification after love of the beautiful has ascended to the heights, namely the crude sexual one that we unmistakably do share with the other animals. When we come to think of it, it seems obvious that there is bound to be something rather difficult about the radical transformation of a bodily appetite into a passion peculiarly appropriate to rational beings. Man cannot live without bread entirely; qua rational we may hunger, thirst, and yearn for knowledge, but quaanimal we are going to want food, drinkand sex. Now this is a fact with which Aristotle, in contrast to Plato, seems fairly content. Some amount of straightforwardlyanimal pleasure is allowed to figure in the life of the fully virtuous, who really enjoy food, drink and sex (EN 1154a15-20); and such pleasurecan actually be pursuedby the temperate without their being led astray (EN 1119a 16ff). But Plato seems to think that ideally the appetites, or the desirefor bodily pleasures,would be eliminated entirely. This brings us to a consideration of a third way in which our passionsmay prevent us from living well. Perhapssome passions are just bad or harmfulin themselves.That is, we might contrast love and fear with, say, envy. Some things are truly lovable and fearful and there is nothing wrong or bad with loving or fearing them; indeed there will be circumstances in which it would be right to feel love or fear and act accordingly. But there are no circumstances in which it would be right to feel the kind of particularlymalicious reaction to superioritywhich is one sort of envy. Envy leads one to act badly, and, even when this is ruled out, by external or internal constraints, it is still a bad way to feel-a sickness in one's soul. Aquinas says that a passion may be good or bad by its very

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velmalaexsuaspecie) because its object is in tune with nature (bona at odds with it. He or reason goes on to define a passionbad right its nature as one which involves an attachment to the very by to bad and an aversion the truly good, citing (or?) truly (recedere) he describes as discontent (tristitia)over another's envy (which an Theo. as a2ae example (Sum. good) Q.24 a.4.). As he shows l elsewhere (2a2ae Q.36 a. 1-3) discontent over another's good is not always at odds with right reason. Another's good might be one's own evil (an enemy's prosperity or power which threaten one). And we might be discontented about another's good not because he has it but rather because we do not; if what we lack is truly good (e.g. virtue) then the discontent is laudable (for it is an aversion to what is truly bad, namely the lack of virtue.) The sort of envy that is always evil is discontent over 'what should make us rejoice', namely another's deserved good. Similar sorts of distinctions would need to be made in other cases too. Accidie, flight from one's own personalgood, is a passion bad in itself, but remorse is not, even though, as Anscombe says, in remorseone hates some good things for oneself. Perhaps in remorse the aversion is to undeserved personal good. Working back from Aquinas, let us try to think what the concept of a passion bad in itself would be in Plato's terms. Suppose for a start that it is the concept of a passion which no perfectly wise flourishing person will ever feel. This gives a necessary condition but lets in shame and remorse which the fully virtuous never feel because they never have occasion to. Could we say that, as a further condition, passions bad in themselves have nothing good about them at all? Shame and remorse, after all, can be described as the rightresponseto one's own ill doings, as a proper aversion to what is trulybad, and Plato would surely agree with Aristotle that they help the young to learn to act well, by restraining them (EN 1128b20ff, cf. Rep. 440a - b). But envy or spite incline one to act badly, and are the wrong responses to others' fortunes; moreover, they are just as unpleasant to feel as shame and remorse. So there is nothing good about them at all, they are wholly bad, and hence not passions that the flourishing would feel nor even must have felt on their way to acquiring virtue. Now I suspect that this is rather the concept of a passion bad in itself that is current today. People discussrather naively what

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is involved in being psychologically well (healthy, balanced, mature etc.) and certain passions are argued to be necessarily excluded from this flourishing psychological life because they are inappropriate (unreasonable) responsesandlead you to act badly andare unpleasant to experience--in short they are what I called 'wholly bad'. Common candidates for such passions are self-pity, (assumed not to be a passion in which it is rather luxurious to wallow) self-hatred, hatred itself (though people placing it on the list tend, I think, to be concentrating on very ordinary modern life rather than considering how one should have felt about Hitler) spite, jealousy, and guilt. What is entirely Platonic or Greek about modern discussions encouraging us to save our lives by eliminating these passions is the way in which they cut acrossthe distinction between moral and prudential (or, as I have heard someone put it, between ethical and psychological) considerations.What is distinctively modern is the emphasis on how miserableone is made by feeling bad passionsrather than on their leading us to act badly. It is as though the thought were how naturally right action would flow from one if one were happy, rather than how naturally happiness would come to one if one acted rightly. But for Plato, as for Aquinas, it is obvious that vice (or failing) is a genuine temptation; in some way it is really attractive, thereby making it difficult to become virtuous. So the concept of a passion bad in itself in Platonic terms would, I think, not be the concept of a passion that was 'wholly bad' in the sense I was suggesting above; on the contrary, perhaps a paradigm example of such a passion would be one that was particularly enjoyable-hence the temptation. The most likely candidates for passions bad in themselves in Plato are the bodily appetites, either individually or construed as thedesire for physical pleasure. They lead us to act badly, and are particularly enjoyable. They have a further significant characteristic too, namely that they lead us to get our whole pattern of life wrong. To see this as striking, contrast the appetites with ordinary fear. Unmodified by knowledge, fear leads me to care too much about saving my skin but savingmyskin is not the sort of thing that can be a way of life. I may run away when I should stand firm, to save my skin, but my ordinary life, when my country is

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not at war, couldn't consist of this.8 But the life of physical pleasure is a possible life and moreover a rival candidate to the life of virtue. Hence the appetites lead us astray, not only in the sense that, like fear, they sometimes lead us into doing things that are wrong, but also in the sense that they lead us into the wrong life. In its r6le as the root of the Christian sins, pride has the same characteristics.It is enticingly easy to fall into, and it leads one to act badly not merely on particular occasions but in virtue of the fact that it involves getting one's whole pattern of life wrong. It is a turning away from God, the changeless good, and the life informed by him to the life of transient good (Sum. Theo. l1a2ae Q.84 a.2. and a.4.). I suppose one could derive from parts of the Republic (around 465) and the Laws the suggestion that Plato thinks that of some sort is a passionthat is bad in itself, though possessiveness I am far from sure that this is so. 'Privatisation' of feelings of pleasure and pain breaks up the city's unity (by making the guardians regard each other as other) and is thereby bad, but it is far from clear that the guardians individually fare better in virtue of lacking this passion (Rep.420b);the picture is further complicated by the ideal of living (really) well in the ideal state, rather than muddling along as best one can in non-ideal conditions. Still, if the guardians do indeed fare better for lacking possessivenessit seems that this is not only because they are thereby saved from a particular tendency to act badly in certain circumstances but further that they are thus enabled to grasp what their lives should be. Supposing we now have some idea of what a passion bad in itself would be in Platonic terms, and supposing for the sake of the discussionthat there are some such, one question is-why are there, and another is-what can we do about them?The two are closely connected. For (i) if it is built into our nature that we feel a certain bad passion, it may be that the best we can do with it is learn to get it under our control. (ii) If, on the other hand, we are subject to some merely because we are prone to certain false beliefs then they may be as easy (or as difficult) to eliminate as
8Or at least, this is true of fear as Plato and Aristotle think of it. We can more readily imagine a sort of pathological timidity which involved, say, keeping oneself safe in a really neurotic way.

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the false beliefs. If (iii) we are subject to some because of a pattern unfortunatelyestablished in childhood it may be that at best we learn to get them under our control and dream of systems of education, as in the Republic, which will eliminate them in future generations. We should note that anything short of elimination is going to leave us less than (ideally) well off. A passion that is under control is still present and, if bad in itself, a source of disharmony. So let us now considerwhat Plato can say about the bodily appetites, considered as passionsbad in themselves.How will knowledge of the good help us with them? It presumably enables us to recognise them as bad and harmful in the first place, and thereby gives us a reason for wanting to eliminate them. But will it enable us to do so? Geach reports that: there is a Latin line enumerating five varieties of gluttony
by means of five adverbs ... Eating food too quickly in excess (nimis) or too eagerly (ardenter),is (praepropere), health . . : eating too expensively (laute) or to prejudicial

parable who let Lazarus rot outside his house) ...9

making a fuss about having everything you eat just right (feeding studiose)may lead to a seriously vicious way of living, with neglect of justice (like the rich man in the

and these remarks would apply equally to drinking alcohol. Now it is plausible to claim that ethical knowledge would largely eliminate the problems of desiring to eat and drink laute and studiose, for, as passions,these result from false beliefs about what it is worth spending one's time and money on. Such error makes it possible for the appetites to disorder our lives very whenthe appetites themselvesare quite weak. (For seriouslyeven instance, in our hedonistic society, it is not uncommon for there to be people who feel obliged to study food and wine bookswhen they would actually preferto live offbread, cheese and beer, and quite common for people with low sexual drive to strive for promiscuity out of misguided principle.) But Plato does not appear to have considered this possibility; his concern is always with appetites that are strong and nonSPeter Geach, The Virtues, (Cambridge University Press, 1977).

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rational (not involving beliefs), leading to failings more akin to Geach's first three. How can knowledge of the good affect them? With Socrates as the exemplar of the one who can go without food for days, walk barefoot in the snow, lie unroused beside Alcibiades and so on, all apparently without strainingto control any recalcitrant desire, it is easy to fall into thinking that ethical knowledge might actually suppress the bodily appetites out of existence. I suspect that Plato was indeed inclined to fall for this idea himself, but it is not one that will withstand scrutiny. Exactly what is it that Socrates is supposedly able to do which the rest of us might aspire to? In order to sharpen the problem, I should mention two distinct ways in which appetite may prompt me to act wrongly. Firstly, if I have already had enough to eat, then it would be wrong and gluttonous to eat more. An appetite trained to be healthily moderate would not prompt me to eat more; an untrained one (probably) would. Secondly, suppose I haven't eaten for days because, say, rations are short. Then, although it would certainly be wrong of me to eat your rationsas well as my own, it would not be gluttonous; either an untrained or a moderate appetite would prompt me to eat and have to be controlled. In the first sort of case there is at least the possibility of harmony between reason and appetite, since it is possible to train the latter into being temperate. But Plato, unlike Aristotle, has not availed himself of this possibility; for him, if there is, in the first sort of case, no recalcitrant prompting from appetite calling for control, this can only be because the appetite has been successfully suppressed or eliminated by the knowledge that it would be wrong to eat more. And if the virtue of temperance can do this in the first sort of case, why should we not find it doing the same in the second?After all, isn't thisjust what Socrates' virtue enables him to do? But once we have seen the mistake in Plato's view of ordinary temperance we realise that Socrates' power over his own body, his (apparent) ability not to feel hungry whatever the state of his stomach, must be quite extraordinary and distinct from virtue. It must, indeed, be either entirely mysterious or the result of some peculiar training he has subjected himself to-training which, for instance, mountebanks might go in for with equal success, but which perhaps Plato would have found quite

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ineffective. It is not Socrates' knowledge of the good that gives him his power, but the training. Aristotle's view of temperance involves, as I noted above, the acceptance of the bodily appetites as passions which, even without radical transformation, could figure in a flourishing human life. Plato's, I think, does not, and in consequence, his ethical science may well be able to save only an elect few. If the bodily appetites are bad in themselvesthen only those for whom Socrates' peculiar training is effectivewill be saved; the restof us will be doomed to a life that is, in comparison with theirs, flawed, and lacking in harmony. We must cease to claim so much for what the ethical science can offer human beings in general, or move to a more Aristotelian picture of the bodily appetites.