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Exegetical Forum
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Exegetical Forum discuss 2 Peter 2:1 and perseverance of the saints in the The Scriptures forums; Alright this verse has been bugging me. I've read a few reformed commentaries on it but I'm still confused. I've read the arguments about the ...
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05-29-2012,
01:35 PM
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#1
May 2011 18
NoxNoctum
Puritanboard Freshman
8/3/2014
would line up with an Arminian interpretation of 2 Peter ("no longer his children" vs "not his children"). But the other translations all actually fit more into the idea of the "visible church" vs. the actual elect. Or that a "Jew" is he who is so inwardly. Any thoughts would be helpful.
Last edited by NoxNoctum; 05-29-2012 at 05:30 PM. Reason: typo
05-29-2012,
01:46 PM
#2
Join Date: Posts: May 2011 1,396
J. Dean
Puritanboard Junior
Sorry that I don't have an answer for this one offhand, but I have to admit that at times this can be a tough one to wrestle with. Even with the Reformed commentaries I've read, I have found some of the answers for this (and similar) verses to feel a little flat in their response.
J. Dean, author EPC Flint, Michigan If your preaching of the gospel of God's free grace in Jesus Christ does not provoke the charge from some of antinomianism, you're not preaching the gospel of the free grace of God in Jesus Christ. D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones
05-29-2012,
01:55 PM
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#3
Mar 2005 4,035
Poimen
Puritanboard Postgraduate
I hope you find this post helpful. I originally wrote it to answer the question of how the Reformed understanding of the atonement and 2 Peter 2:1 can be reconciled but as I
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point out that discussion has implications for the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints as well.
Rev. Daniel Kok Pastor in the St. Lawrence Presbytery of the RPCNA Leduc, Alberta CANADA "What sort of pledge and how great is this of love towards us! Christ lives for us not for himself!" John Calvin, Commentary on the Hebrews (7:25)
05-29-2012,
02:14 PM
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#4
May 2011 18
NoxNoctum
Puritanboard Freshman
Thanks for that post Poimen, but it seems that you're mostly just pointing out in that article what it can't mean, which I totally agree with because scripture can't contradict itself, but I'm still left wondering what it *does* mean. I also don't really like the idea of some kind of "lesser" redemption. I mean I'm not sure I would ever say that Judas was redeemed in any sense, but you could say that he "tasted of the heavenly gift" in a similar way that Saul (as in King Saul not Paul) did when the latter prophesied, since presumably Judas did everything the other disciples did since when Christ said that one would betray him they didn't assume it was him or anything like that. I guess at the moment I lean towards it just meaning visible church vs actual church but I still kind of have to worm around it a bit to get there. I also think it's clear that Peter is saying that these false teachers were predestined to this ("their condemnation from long ago is not idle") in the same way that the son of perdition was. (in other words clearly the elect can't be what he's talking about here)
05-29-2012,
02:18 PM
#5
Join Date: Posts: Apr 2012 1,007
arap
Puritanboard Junior
Trent
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05-29-2012,
02:49 PM
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#6
May 2011 18
NoxNoctum
Puritanboard Freshman
Ya I wonder if that must be the explanation. They give the appearance of being bought or claim to be bought or associate themselves with the people who are bought. 2 Peter 2:21 also is a bit troubling. How can an unbeliever "know the way of righteousness"? Unless it just means the same thing as having a "form of Godliness but denying its power"
05-29-2012,
03:24 PM
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#7
Mar 2005 4,035
Poimen
Puritanboard Postgraduate
Thanks for that post Poimen, but it seems that you're mostly just pointing out in that article what it can't mean, which I totally agree with because scripture can't contradict itself, but I'm still left wondering what it *does* mean.
"Mostly" yes, but I also note in point 5: I believe that vs. 20 provides the explanation of this verse: these false prophets escaped the pollutions of the world for a time. They were professors of Jesus and members of the church. Thus they had knowledge of Christ (similar to Hebrews 6:4-6) but never had
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a saving relationship with Him. They went out from us but they were not of us 1 John 2:19. Indeed, Jesus Himself declares that He never knew them in a redeeming way (Matthew 7:23).
Rev. Daniel Kok Pastor in the St. Lawrence Presbytery of the RPCNA Leduc, Alberta CANADA "What sort of pledge and how great is this of love towards us! Christ lives for us not for himself!" John Calvin, Commentary on the Hebrews (7:25)
05-29-2012,
03:39 PM
#8
Contra_Mundum
Pilgrim, Alien, Stranger
The issues aren't really any different from those found in Hebrews, and actually (given the term despotes, and other facts of 2Pet.), the language of Hebrews is arguably stronger. "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put him to an open shame." Heb.6:4-6 This is a strong statement about the reality of what we on this side of heaven call "Apostasy." These are people who have come into such contact with blessed Spiritual things, that it must be said of them that they have turned their backs on truths they cannot be said not to have known. But, as we are bound to strive for harmony in our understanding, it is important that we affirm the grounding essential of a sure and perfect election, and that none of those for whom Christ died, and gave his Holy Spirit, and every other heavenly benefit, are able to perish. And if that is so, and by the clarity of its teaching compels our first assent, then we are driven to apprehend the Apostasy texts according to 1Jn.2:19, "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us." That is, we are driven to a "qualified" understanding of what these people may be said to have partaken of, or how such persons were "bought," because we cannot or may not "qualify" the absolute nature of God's elective (and monergistic) and invincible work of salvation, even to the breaking down of even the subject's own resistance to his grace, until it is overcome, and in love he embraces his Savior and God--never to be parted evermore.
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05-29-2012,
03:51 PM
#9
Join Date: Posts: Feb 2010 222
davenporter
Puritanboard Freshman
I think this was pretty helpful, and a better explanation than most of the others given, especially since it shows that the Arminian interpretation of the passage is flawed, as the word "bought" signifies a completed (not hypothetical) purchase. If anyone has any further thoughts on this article (or criticisms of this exegesis), it would be very helpful to hear them.
Benjamin Davenport -- Seattle, WA Member, Lynnwood OPC Student, Northwest Theological Seminary
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