Validity of Traditionalist Orders

In this age of the Great Apostasy, the Sacraments have been attacked and replaced by the Conciliar Church of Antipope aul VI !ith ne! and invalid Sacraments" #urther there is a conspiracy to destroy the Church that has been documented over the past century a and a half" $ As a priest affiliated !ith the Society of Saint ius % said many years ago& 'Once they get rid of all of the valid priests they !ill give us the (ass back") And this has happened in the indults from *ome under Antipopes +ohn aul II and ,enedict %VI" It is also probable that the enemies of the Church have attempted to infiltrate the Traditionalist (ovement in order to attempt to destroy -oly Orders" .e kno!, of course, that the Catholic Church !ill not fail" .e have +esus Christ/s !ord on this" 0lse!here in several places .e have proven that the Traditionalist (ovement is not the Catholic Church" One place is 12 3ears that Changed the Catholic Church4 .e have also decreed in 5667 that Traditionalist Orders are not legitimate in response to a re8uest to declare them both illegitimate and invalid" At that time .e did not address the issue of validity, but are doing so briefly no!" There are t!o basic lines in Traditionalism, the 9efebvre line and the Thuc line" ,oth lines have been 8uestioned as invalid by some in the !orld, usually by other Traditionalists" Some in the Society of Saint ius % 8uestion the validity of the Thuc line and some of the early day Thuc ,ishops and their supporters 8uestioned the validity of the 9efebvre line" .ith the union of the Thuc and 9efebvre lines by the consecrations of ,ishops :olan and Sanborn, 9efebvre priests, by ,ishops ivarunas and (c;enna, Thuc ,ishops, this 8uestioning has gone a!ay" Some in the home<alone movement of Traditionalism 8uestion the validity of all Traditionalists priests and bishops"

Table of Contents
Archbishop 9efebvre/s Orders"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""5 ,asis of the Accusation"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""5 Can a (ason -ave Valid Intention4"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""= 9et >s resume 9ienart -ad a erverse Intention""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""= Can a (an ,e Consecrated a ,ishop .ithout ,eing reviously Ordained a riest4"""""""""""""""""= Conclusion"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""2 9efebvre and the ?ovus Ordo"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""2 ?e! *ite of Ordination"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""1 Validity of the Consecrations"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""7 by ,ishop eter (artin ?go :ihn Thuc""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""7 almar de Troya""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""7 -ave (iter, .ill Travel""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""@ $AB$ Consecrations"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""@ Thuc/s Senility"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""B ?ovus Ordo"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""B
$

#or more information see ;ey :ocuments to >nderstanding the Great Apostasy for some of this documentation"

Archbishop 9efebvre/s Orders

,asis of the Accusation
The follo!ing !as 8uoted in a $A@7 article& The book 9CInfallibilite ontificale by (ar8uis de la #ran8uerie !as referred to by Chiesa Viva and reports& ,orn 9ille, #rance #ebruary @,$BB2 Ordained +une 5A,$A6@ 0ntered (asonic lodge in Cambrai $A$5 ,ecame 'Visitor) in (asonry D $Bth degree $A$A th Arrived at =6 degree $A52 Consecrated bishop :ecember B, $A5B #rom the (ontreal lecture& 'The -oly #ather !as educated in a (odernist environment """ and, therefore, one cannot be surprised that, in the, Council, the ope did not react as Saint ius % !ould have reacted, as ope ius I% !ould have reacted, or a 9eo %III" 'As a conse8uence, an atmosphere prevailed at the Council of a kind that there !as no resistance against this (odernist influence !hich eEercised itself by a group of cardinals, in particular !hich !as commanded, !hich !as directed in some sort by Cardinal 9ienart """" ?o!, t!o months ago, in *ome, the traditionalist periodical FChiesa VivaF GH 9iving ChurchI published < I have seen it in *ome !ith my o!n eyes < on the back side of the cover, the photograph of Cardinal 9ienart !ith all his (asonic paraphernalia, the day of the date of his inscription in (asonry """, then the date at !hich he rose to the 56th, then to the =6th degree of (asonry, attached to this lodge, to that lodger<at this place, at that place" < (ean!hile, about t!o or three months after this publication !as made, I heard nothing about any reaction, or any contradiction" ?o!, unfortunately, I must say to you that this Cardinal 9ienart is my bishop, it is he !ho ordained me a priest, it is he !ho consecrated me a bishop" I cannot help it """ #ortunately, the orders are valid J but, in spite of it, it !as very painful for me to be informed of it") K(arcel 9efebvre in (ontreal, Canada, on (ay 5@, $A@7, reported by :r" -ugo (aria ;ellnerL If one traces all of the claims that Achille Cardinal 9ienart !as a (ason back to their original source, they call come back to this article" #irst is should be noted that 9efebvre got the facts !rong" There !as no picture of 9ienart" This is understandable, !hen you put 9efevre/s trip into conteEt" On (ay 55nd Archbishop 9efebvre !as in Stafford, TeEas for confirmations to be held that day and the neEt day" I !as confirmed on (ay 55nd, $A@7 by Archbishop 9efebvre" 0arlier that day he had a meeting !ith three (eEican priests, #athers SaenM, Carmona and Namora" They came to discuss the vacancy of the papacy and the election of a ope, hoping to enlist 9efebvre/s assistance in the election of a ope" On (onday, (ay 52 th Gary Giuffre, his father and brother and *on ;eller confronted 9efebvre !ith pornography found in the apartment of the SS % priest serving there" They also confronted him !ith other evidence of serious breaches of morals" 9efebvre never took action against this priest, retaining and promoting him !ithin the SS % until $AB2" One can see that 9efebvre had a rough !eek, !hich accounts for his not remembering the article correctly" It should be noted that 9efebvre lost this chapel and group, because of his inaction" -e may have been a!are of this at the time of the speech" Since this is the only evidence against 9ienart, it is insufficient to prove the case"

Can a (ason -ave Valid Intention4

.e kno! that high level (asons are dedicated to the destruction of the Catholic Church" And !hat !ould better cause destruction than infiltrated the episcopate and !ithholding intention in the reception of one/s 0piscopal Consecration thus invalidating all of the Sacraments he !ould confer as a ,ishop4 The only thing !orse is infecting people !ith heresy" One can make an argument that a (ason might have a perverse and invalid intention"

9et >s resume 9ienart -ad a erverse Intention

On the presumption that 9ienart !ithheld intention in ordaining (arcel 9efebvre as a priest, then he !ould not have been validly ordained" -o!ever, !hat !ould happen in the case of his consecration as ,ishop4 Catholic -ierarchy reports the follo!ing& rincipal Consecrator& Achille Cardinal 9iOnart P ,ishop of 9ille rincipal Co<Consecrators& ,ishop Alfred<+ean<#QliE Ancel, Ist" del rado P Titular ,ishop of (yrina ,ishop +ean<,aptiste Victor #auret, C"S"Sp" P Titular ,ishop of AraEa 9efebvre !as consecrated by three bishops" ope ius %II had recently ordered the co< consecrators to intend to consecrate along !ith the consecrator" Thus all three have the intention to confer the Sacrament" If 9ienart !ithheld intention, the other t!o ,ishops !ould supply"

Can a (an ,e Consecrated a ,ishop .ithout ,eing reviously Ordained a riest4

This is the main point of those !ho hold against 9efebvre/s validity" They base their opinion on this from the Summa& 'One Order does not depend on the preceding Order as regards the validity of the sacrament" ,ut the 0piscopal po!er depends on the priestly po!er, since no one can receive the 0piscopal po!er unless he have previously the priestly po!er") KSaint Thomas in the Summa Supplement R 26 A1L -o!ever, this is only an opinion of Saint Thomas A8uinas, !hich must be interpreted in the light of the facts& #rom *elation of the riesthood to the 0piscopate& '-istory establishes !ith a sufficient degree of certainty that several opes and bishops of the early Church !ere deacons and not yet priests at the moment of their election, e"g" ope 9iberius !as a deacon !hen he !as made pope, and so !as Gregorius (agnusS Antonius Kmentioned by St" AugustineL !as lector !hen he !as made bishop" 0piscopal ordination !as given to them !ithout previous ordination to the priesthood, and their ordination !as considered valid so that by one ordination they ac8uired the priesthood and episcopacy" The rite of the episcopal consecration used on such occasion did not sho! any variation

!hether a priest or a deacon !as consecrated" In the latter case the ordinand received therefore the sacerdotal together !ith the episcopal po!er" The episcopal consecration contains, therefore, the truly sacramental ordination of the priesthood and at the same time the ceremony of appointment to the office of bishop" It is ambivalent, i"e" the very same rite !hich confers merely episcopal po!er on a validly ordained priest can and does at the same time confer also the sacerdotal po!er, if the subTect is not yet a priest")
5

*esearch proves that several men, including several opes, !ere consecrated ,ishop !ithout previously being ordained a priest" The most famous is ope ?icholas the Great, !ho !oke up in the morning as a deacon and !ent to bed having been elected and consecrated as ,ishop of *ome" As Saint Thomas !ould say in light of these facts& 'Thus follo!s the practice of the Church") Therefore episcopal consecration does nto depend on previous ordination as a priest for validity"

Conclusion
,ased upon this evidence, there is no serious evidence against Archbishop 9efebvre/s validity, therefore he is to be considered a valid ,ishop"

9efebvre and the ?ovus Ordo

One !ould think that the man !ho declared the ?ovus Ordo a bastard (ass at 9ille in $A@7 !ould have nothing to do !ith it" -o!ever, this is not true" -e actually celebrated the ?ovus Ordo at 0cone until Christmas 0ve of $A@$, !hen #ather Guerard des 9auriers asked him at table !hy the bishop defending tradition used an innovated (ass" = Abbe aManam reports& 'I made use of a table and since I had t!o identical (issals < mine and my sister/s, in #rench, the (issal of ierre +ournel, official liturgical teEt !ith the imprimatur of $Ath (arch $A@=, i"e" the (issal of aul VI, I gave one to the prelate, !ith all the pages clearly marked and !e both CO?C090,*AT0: in the presence of his sister, his surgeon and his !ife and the surgeon/s assistant") And in$AB6 9efebvre assisted actively at the ?ovus Ordo funeral of his sister& On (onday +une =6th $AB6, the knell is sounded from the church of ?otre :ame des Anges at Tourcoing K?orthL" It is the funeral of (me" (oni8ue 90#0,V*0, sister<in<la! of the famous prelate (onseigneur 90#0,V*0" The clergy emerge from the sacristy and go to receive the remains" ,esides the altar boys there is in the procession a priest in FTaiMe costumeF i"e" !ith a !hite alb, !hich has no girdle, but has a hood" #or the occasion he has slipped on a violet stole of modern cut" ,ehind him is the celebrant in a violet chasuble" Clearly, black, the colour of mourning is no longer fashionable in the post<conciliar church& one must dispose of everything reminiscent of death and the beyondS neEt, !hat a surprise& comes the prelate from 0cone < black cassock, lace surplice, violet cape and Muchetto, pectoral cross" -e is flanked by t!o of his men, the abbes Simoulin and #errie in cassock and surplice" This is strange indeed < one is not used to seeing (onseigneur in such progressive company
5 =

The +urist Volume $7, page =21 http&UU!!!"traditioninaction"orgURuestionsU,26AV9efebvre"html

and especially in a Church reserved to the ?e! *iteS meeting halls and hangars provide more familiar settings for him" 2

?e! *ite of Ordination

9efebvre has admitted men, !ho !ere ordained in the ne! *ite, into the Society fo Saint ius % !ithout conditional reordination" I have heard that he also ordained one man for the Society in the ?e! *ite" I have not been able to verify this information" .ebsite for Validity http&UU!!!"traditionalmass"orgUarticlesUarticle"php4idHB1WcatnameH$2 .ebsite against validity http&UUfriarsminor"blogspot"comU56$6U65Udoubtful<validity<of<holy<orders"html

(onsieur *obert (aMarolles 1B=B6 9ucenay<les<AiE #rance

Validity of the Consecrations by ,ishop eter (artin ?go :ihn Thuc

-ere there are several 8uestions raised, but they all must be put into conteEt"

almar de Troya
On +anuary $, $A@7, ,ishops eter (artin ?go<:ihn Thuc ordained Clemente #erdinand :omingueM GXmeM, a visionary, to the priesthood !ith several other men" On +anuary $$, $A@7 ,ishop Thuc consecrated five men as ,ishop at almar de Troya" Clemente had convinced several priests, including one of 9efebvre/s professors, Canon *evaM, of the validity of his visions" I kne! another #ather .illiam :aly from Ireland !ho had immigrated to the >nited States before the apostasy"

Archbishop 9efebvre
A !ebsite reported& It !as thanks to the intervention of another luminary of the Traditional movement, Archbishop (arcel 9efebvre, that the !hole debacle began" #r ?oel ,arbara, relates he heard this from 9efebvre/s o!n lips at table one day at the seminary in 0cone" FArchbishop 9efebvre kne! Archbishop ?go :inh Thuc 8uite !ell from the Second Vatican Council" -e considered him to be a bishop !ith good doctrinal vie!s" 9ike himself, this bishop belonged to the conservative group" It !as because he considered him to be a Catholic bishop, committed to the faith, devoted to (ary, and having nothing to do, that he encouraged him to !ork !ith the emissaries of almar de Troya !ho had come to 0cone in order to solicit his episcopal services" I heard these facts directly from Archbishop 9efebvre" FOne day a canon of Saint (aurice named #ather *evaM arrived at the seminary in 0cone" -e !as accompanied by a priest !ho spoke 0nglish" A lover of the eEtraordinary, both had come from the location of the Apparitions" They came straight from almar to beg Archbishop 9efebvre to come to this location immediately because the ,lessed Virgin !as !aiting for him" She !as insisting that a Catholic bishop come in order to confer the episcopacy on those she planned to designate" The Archbishop eEcused himself and advised them to Fapproach Archbishop Thuc" -e is orthodoE and he is not at present occupied" Go and seek him out" -e !ill most certainly agree !ith your re8uest"F The t!o messengers immediately left and had no difficulty in convincing the elderly Vietnamese Archbishop to respond to the Virgin/s re8uest"F Indeed #r Cekada recalls the events as follo!s in his article the FValidity of the Thuc ConsecrationsF& F-is KThuc/sL interest in the traditional movement appears to have begun in early $A@1 !hen he visited Abp" 9efebvre/s seminary in 0cone, S!itMerland" The event !ould turn out to be a miEed blessing" There Abp" Thuc struck up an ac8uaintance !ith #ather (" *evaM, former Chancellor of the S!iss :iocese of Sion and professor of Canon 9a! at the 0cone seminary" 9ater in $A@1, #ather *evaM 7

convinced Abp" Thuc that the solution to the Church/s problems !ere to be found in alleged F(arian apparitionsF at almar de Troya, Spain, and he urged the Archbishop to consecrate bishops for the almar supporters, !ho !ished to preserve the traditional (ass" Abp" Thuc agreed and performed the consecrations in :ecember" The neEt year, ho!ever, Abp" Thuc repudiated his connections !ith the almar group"F Archbishop Thuc also refers to the episode in his autobiography& FAt that time a priest came to me !ho I had formerly kno!n in 0cone, S!itMerland" -e said to me point<blank& F3our 0Ecellency, the -oly Virgin has sent me to bring you at once to Spain in order to render her a service" (y car is !aiting for you at the door of the presbytery and !e !ill leave immediately so as to reach there by Christmas"F Thrilled by this invitation, I said to him& FIf it is a service demanded by the -oly Virgin, I am ready to follo! you to the end of the !orld"F On +anuary $$ $A@7 the Archbishop elevated GomeM and four others to the episcopacy after having first ordained them priest several !eeks earlier -aving been immediately FeEcommunicatedF by aul VI for his actions, Archbishop Thuc promptly broke !ith almar" Clemente and Co" proceeded to perform mass ordinations and consecrations setting up a parallel church" >pon the death of aul VI, K!hom they consider to have been a saintL GomeM claimed to have been mystically cro!ned ' ope) in a Tail only hours after the death ne!s reached him" >pon his return to Spain, the mystical cro!ning became 'reality)" ,ishop Thuc had been at 0cone prior to the almar affair" I !as in *ome at the end of $A@@ !ith ten other SS % seminarians from 0cone" Several purchased cassocks and in discussing things !ith the proprietor found out that our bishops had been there buying miters" These men asked for more information and found out the bishops in 8uestion !ere from almar de Troya" I conclude that ,ishop Thuc consecrated Clemente and the others for Archbishop 9efebvre" Some hold that almar proves Thuc/s insanity" If this is true, then 9efebvre is also insane for having sent him"

-ave (iter, .ill Travel

(any claim to have been consecrated by ,ishop Thuc" Some are invalid claims, others doubtful, and others are certain" Thuc !as not careful about !ho he consecrated, but non< Catholics sometimes aren/t KThuc is a non<Catholic for heresy at Vatican II as is 9efebvre, !ho also ordained some 8uestionable men"L This is not an argument against validity, though"

$AB$ Consecrations
On (ay @, $AB$ ,ishop Thuc consecrated the former 0cone professor Abbe Guerard des 9auriers as ,ishop" On October $@, $AB$ ,ishop Thuc consecrated #athers (oise Carmona< *ivera and Aldolpho Namora as ,ishops" :oubts have been raised about both consecrations, but they apparently have been set aside by some !ho originally raised them, such as ,ishop :onald Sanborn" Once you get past the meo!ing cats at both consecrations, did a consecration take place4 All three men consecrated !ere !ell instructed Catholic priests" I have met ,ishops Carmona @

and Namora" It is reported that ,ishop Carmona confirmed that the proper ontifical !as used" :octors -iller and -eller provided all of the necessities and !ould certainly have provided only the proper ontifical for the consecrations" One letter of ,ishop Carmona/s is interpreted to read that the ?e! *ite is used" 1 -o!ever, this letter could be read several !ays, and it is most likely that ,ishop Carmona !ould not countenance consecration in the ?e! *ite"

Thuc/s Senility
One argument is that ,ishop ?go<:ihn Thuc !as senile or other!ise insane and thus incapable of conferring any Sacrament" -o!ever, those !ho !ere ac8uainted !ith ,ishop Thuc report that he !as in possession of his faculties" .e !ill not reproduce the reports here, but add a report that I have heard" In $ABA I !as talking !ith a Vietnamese Traditionalist priest, #ather eter Tran Van ;hoat, also kno! has #ather ;hoat Van Tran" 7 This priest met ,ishop Thuc in $AB= in 9ouisiana at a bishops meeting" -e said that Thuc had offered to consecrate him a bishop, but he turned it do!n" -o!ever, he said nothing to indicate Thuc did not have full use of his faculties" ;hoat/s testimony, though must be interpreted in light of his o!n insane claims" -e claims to have been secretly consecrated bishop by Cardinal Siri, and supports the claim that Siri !as elected ope in the $A7= conclave" -e also claims to have been made a /secret cardinal/ by Siri in $ABB" -o!ever, !hen I met him, he did not make such claims and even decided he liked the position of Archbishop 9efebvre in regard to +ohn aul II" Given the evidence given by eye<!itnesses !e can conclude that Thuc !as old, but not senile or insane"

?ovus Ordo
0vidence has been produced that Thuc assisted at the ?ovus Ordo up until shortly before he declared the papacy vacant in $AB5 and after both consecrations" On -oly Thursday, $AB$ he concelebrated the ?ovus Ordo !ith the bishop of Toulon" -e !ould hear confessions in the cathedral and act as acolyte to ?ovus Ordo celebrations, if the boy assigned did not sho! up" -o!ever, he personally said the 9atin (ass in his o!n apartment before going to the cathedral" If this laEity is proof of invalidity, then !e must also doubt the 9efebvre ordinations as !ell for the same reasons" 9efebvre also considered the ?e! *ite and ?ovus Ordo valid" .ebsite !ith links to more information& http&UU!!!"thucbishops"comU ope (ichael B5A ?0 Chester Topeka ;S 777$7<$=1 !!!"pope<michael"com thetruepopeYgmail"com
1 7

(arch 1, 56$2 Ash .ednesday

http&UU!!!"cmri"orgUcarmona"html Vietnamese put their sir name first, in this case Tran Van, then their given name, ;hoat" #ather ;hoat inverted the order later on"