-----Original Message----From: Anacasti To: DerianP <DerianP@aol.com> Cc: AFSATEX <AFSATEX@aol.com>; rcox <rcox@postandcourier.com>; rmccrea <rmccrea@madison.com>; CHitch8003 <CHitch8003@aol.

ol.com>; scott <scott@informationtrust.org>; Whistle47 <Whistle47@aol.com>; stullberg <stullberg@indianlaw.org>; Millett1 <Millett1@aol.com>; puddington <puddington@freedomhouse.org>; jasis <jasis@sion.net> Sent: Wed, Feb 2, 2005 6:31 pm Subject: My conversation with Wolfowitz on torture (not for publication) Last night I attended a memorial service at the Polish Embassy for Jan Nowak, the "Courier from arsaw" during orld ar II and an unsung hero!!until now!!of the Cold ar" #e$uty %ecretary of #efense Paul event" ' olfowit& was one of those who s$oke at the

(is $resence made me wonder about what Nowak would have thought about the current torture scandal involving )"%" military $ersonnel and, according to some accounts, their civilian leaders" I knew I had to say something, but waited a good deal until I could collect my thoughts and determine an a$$ro$riate attitude to take in engaging him" I waited until olfowit& had finished s$eaking to a uniformed officer from a Euro$ean country and, e*tending my hand to "#ean" olfowit&, I introduced myself as an alumnus of Johns (o$kins %+I%" I told him that, as an +merican and as the federal service,s highest decorated national security whistleblower, I needed to e*$ress to him my dee$est concern about the torture scandal and what it meant to our military and to our country" %omewhat defensively, olfowit& re$lied that he, too, was very concerned, and that he and "#on" -umsfeld were against torture, and that they were doing what they could to sto$ it" .I will not directly /uote olfowit& because I was not taking notes or recording when I talked"0 I e*$lained that I was not a$$roaching him to engage in a confrontation but that, given the occasion and how I felt, I needed to let him know how I felt" I also told him!!in an effort to kee$ the dialogue going!!that I had hel$ed contribute ideas and information to the $resident,s foreign $olicy team during the first 1ush!Cheney cam$aign in 2333" .4his is true5 I was fed u$ by the corru$tion of the Clinton
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+dministration and, certainly, furious at my betrayal at the hands of the 6ore $eo$le when I was at -eno,s Justice #e$artment"0 I then told olfowit& that, in my e*$erience as someone who covered +rgentina,s "dirty war" trials in 789: and who has worked e*tensively on rule of law and human rights issues for the better $art of two decades, what was ha$$ening in Ira/, Cuba and other $laces was very disturbing" I $ointed out to him that no military can survive as a disci$lined force in a democracy when some are allowed to get away with torture; that it destroys disci$line, and that when it was tolerated or not sufficiently sanctioned when it occured abroad, it was <ust a matter of time that it would come back to haunt us here" olfowit& re$lied that he thought that the news coverage of the whole affair was very biased, and that ste$s were being taken to $rosecute those who were guilty" I re$lied that while it was true that lower!level $eo$le were being $rosecuted, and even convicted, that there was a $olitical res$onsibility that went higher u$, and that that needed to be addressed too" +t first olfowit& a$$eared to take that as an indirect attack and, an*ious to kee$ the dialogue going, I $ointed out that what had occurred could not have ha$$ened unless it was at least tolerated by some higher in the chain of command" .I re$eated several times that I was not trying to be confrontational, but that I felt a duty to let him know how I felt"0 olfowit& then asked whether I was asking for $eo$le to be $rosecuted even if they were innocent" I told him that the answer was "no," but that in order for the +dministration,s res$onse to be credible, a full airing needed to be made, and that the senior leadershi$ need "to get out front" on the issue" I also told him that, working in the human rights field, I knew many $eo$le who lived abroad who admired and res$ected the )nited %tates who were "confused" and "angry" about the seeming reluctance of our leaders to do so" 4hat it was a lot harder to critici&e other countries about their rights abuses as long as this was hanging over our own heads" olfowit& res$onded by saying that the +dministration was determined to get to the bottom of what ha$$ened, and that it had s$oken clearly!!even to the e*tent that some of the $resident,s comments were being used by defense counsel as $re<udicial to their clients .those accused of torture0" (e added that $eo$le did not understand how things were actually working out, and that media accounts shouldn,t be taken at face value" .%eymour (ersh, he said, was res$onsible for writing a lot of "garbage" about Ira/ that bore little resemblance to fact"0
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I re$eated my comment that I was not $ointing a finger, but that!!$recisely because battle lines in ashington are sometimes drawn in the most $redictable ways!!it was im$ortant that he hear concerns from outside his normal information circuit, es$ecially on an issue like this" olfowit& ended by re$eating that he, too, o$$osed torture" I should $oint out that, at certain $oints in the conversation, I was careful to "dial it down" in order not to a$$ear confrontational" I did not feel it was useful to challenge him on anything; rather, I <ust wanted him to hear a $oint of view he may not be getting, or getting enough of, if they are bunkered down over the river!!like I e*$ect that they are" +lso, olfowit& a$$eared to s$eak with some emotion about his own o$$osition to torture" In all honesty, I had the im$ression that he was not $osturing .one of the reasons I tried my best to kee$ things non!confrontational was that I did not want a circle of $eo$le to form around us, which would have $robably $recluded anything but ashington!s$eak0" + cynical view might be that the de$uty secretary may <ust be trying to stave off =issinger,s fate, and that olfowit& does not want to have to consult an attorney every time he $lans to take a $ost!retirement tri$ abroad" 1ut I think it is e/ually $ossible that he is truly distressed about what has ha$$ened" I wish I would have had more time to talk to him .our discussion lasted between :!9 minutes0 and that I had more facts at hand to use to sound him out" .Plus, I was somewhat nervous because I wanted to hit the right note so that he would $ay what I had to say some mind"0 +ll the same, it was good to be able to get something off my chest in a way that usually one can only dream of doing!!as you shout at the television" >aybe olfowit&,s comments will s$ark an idea from one of you on how we can make a difference as well as a statement on this horrendously wrong turn that our country is taking!!regardless of your $osition on the Ira/ war" >aybe there is a constructive of engaging the +dministration on the issue; maybe not" +nyway, I am offering this memo in the ho$es that it is useful" >ick