9/11 Working-level Employee

SENSITIVE BUT UNCLASSIFIED

DEPARTMENT OF STATE
UNITED STATES INFORMATION AGENCY

Office of Inspector General

Memorandum of Conversation

Visas for the 9/11 Hijackers SA-39. 7th fir. Conf. Rm. 2/11/03
Subject Office Date

Bert Krieg and Kevin Hrvnkow

Official Inspector

Mr. Krieg stated that the purpose of the interview was to respond to a congressional request that
OIG report on visa issuance to 9/11 hijackers. He added that OIG will protect the identities of
the adjudicators and that OIG's response will not single out specific individuals.

Jread the questions for the visa adjudicators given to her and answered them as follows.

1. For the record, please tell me your name, present rank and position.

2. Were you the officer (or consular associate) who issued nonimmigrant visas to (names of
\) on (dates) at (name of post)?

| Examined the computerized consular consolidated database visafileof Marwan Al

Shehhi who was issued an NTV on Jan. 18, 2000 at Dubai, UAE.)

Yes.

3. Is this a copy of the application?

No, it was apparently purged along with all the others, as was the standard destruction procedure.
Refusals were only kept two years, while issuances were purged after one year. Since this visa
was issued 18 Jan 00, it would have been destroyed by Jan 2001.

4. Did you check the CLASS lookout system for his name, and what were the results?

Yes, the record shows that I did, and that there were no "hits."

5. Did you interview this individual prior to issuing the visa?

SENSITIVE BUT UNCLASSIFIED

 SENSITIVE BUT UNCLASSIFIED

I can't tell from the record in front of me, but most probably not. I would guess that about 95
percent of the Emiratis (this fellow was a U.A.E. national) were not interviewed.

6. If not, why not?

He was a U.A.E. national and they were almost never interviewed unless we got a "hit" on the
CLASS lookout system indicating derogatory information about the applicant.

7. What was the policy at post regarding personal appearance waivers?

See no. 6 above. I was the only full time visa officer at a post issuing about 30,000 visas a year.
This was an incredible workload and I could not possibly have interviewed more visa applicants.
Emiratis were low risk visa applicants who had lots of money, left the U.A.E. to escape the
summers, and were Western oriented who simply wanted to visit the U.S. There was little fear
of Emiratis overstaying their visits. There were separate visa processing policies for U.A.E
nationals, TCN (third country nationals) residents, and TCN visitors. The latter were screened
most carefully since they were the most likely to overstay in the U.S.

8. How were you informed of this policy? In writing? Orally? By whom?

Probably it was done verbally. I don't recall seeing anything in writing.

9. Were you personally given any instructions by your supervisors or superiors about asking
applicants to appear in person for an interview?

Nothing specific, other than for Emirate nationals. We were very aware of the desire of Embassy
Abu Dhabi's senior management to keep the Emirate nationals happy. They were low risk visa
applicants with a lot of wealth and always returned to the Emirates. They were also pro-Western
in their attitudes. We also had personal appearance waivers for applicants requiring medical
treatment in the U.S. and for economic reasons.

10. Did a travel agency submit the case?

No. The travel agency procedure was not in place at that time.

11. If so, what was the policy at post regarding travel agency procedures?

N/A

12. How were you informed of this policy? In writing? Orally? By whom?

N/A

13. Would a personal interview of this applicant have helped you decide his eligibility for a visa,
and why?

No, because of the way the culture and society worked over there. They all had substantial
evidence of their wealth and ties to local business enterprises. Unless, there were some magic set

SENSITIVE BUT UNCLASSIFIED

 SENSITIVE BUT UNCLASSIFIED

of questions that would uncover someone's true intentions, a personal interview would most
likely not reveal anything that the person wouldn't want you to know. I am not sure that more
visa officers would have helped to identify terrorists. What questions should they ask and what
documents should they examine?

14. If you interviewed this individual, what details can you recall?

N/A

15. Did he present any documents in support of his application?

N/A

16. If so, can you recall any details of the documents that were presented?

I can't recall.

17. What specific elements obtained from the interview or the application convinced you that
this applicant was entitled to a visa?

N/A

18. Did you have sufficient time to conduct the interview or review the application to your
satisfaction? If not, how much time would you have preferred?

N/A

19. If there were sufficient consular officers at post to conduct personal interviews of every visa
applicant, would there have been sufficient interview windows, work space and support
staff?

No, Dubai had a poor consular section physical set up; it was not set-up for efficiency.

20. What other elements would have helped you make a better decision regarding the applicant's
eligibility for a visa and why?

Better and more information in CLASS. There were often days that CLASS was down and not
operating. At post, consular officers were told that there were very few terrorists in the U. A.E.,
and those were TCNs. The Visa Viper (terrorist lookout) Program was not very active, and I
can't recall any names being entered from the U.A.E. Documents were unreliable and meant
very little. For example, Emiratis sold use of their name to become paper majority holders of
some corporation about which they knew very little.

Also, if I had a better, accurate picture of the host country it would have been helpful.

21. Did your superiors ever discuss the post's NTV refusal rates in general with you?

SENSITIVE BUT UNCLASSIFIED

 SENSITIVE BUT UNCLASSIFIED

No - the only time UAE nationals were refused, was because of CLASS. We had an incredibly
low refusal rate.

22. Did your superiors ever counsel you to raise or lower your own refusal rate?

No.

23. Did you or anyone in the consular section conduct NW return validation studies? If not, why
not?

No. There was little or no interest in doing so for the Emiratis. We also had no negative
feedback from the INS.

24. How well did you speak and read Arabic?

None. If I needed to interview in Arabic I used a FSN translator, but this was difficult because it
added time to the visa process.

25. Did the Department train you in this language?

No.

26. Do you consider that the training you received in the Department to carry out your visa
adjudication responsibilities was adequate?

Yes, but the emphasis was on screening out economic immigrants and not on the big picture or
specifically much on terrorism. This was my fifth tour as an FSO and my second as a consular
officer. I attended ConGen Rosslyn (consular training) back in 1993.

27. If not, what additional training would have enabled you to do a better job?

I had no overlap with my predecessor. More knowledge of the local culture, society and
traditions would have helped. I could have used better training about Arabic naming conventions
and the transliteration of Arabic names into English.

28. What other comments would you like to make at this time regarding this visa case?

The U.A.E. was under consideration for inclusion into the Visa Waiver Program because of the
very low refusal rate for its nationals. This would have had a major impact on our workload.

We carefully checked only parts of the visa checked application (OF 156), especially those
questions dealing with identity and home information (questions 1 to 14), as well as those about
previous visas and work/study intentions (questions 15 to 18). Question 29 was a showstopper if
any part was checked "yes." Those questions on the right side of the form were not important -
occupation, support, U.S. address and purpose of visit They shed little light on he applicant's
intentions.

SENSITIVE BUT UNCLASSIFIED