Sei sulla pagina 1di 4

Human Bodies, Computer Music ABSTRACT

T he author considers the


absence of the artist’s body in
electronic music, a missing
Bob Ostertag element that he finds crucial to
the success of any work of art.
In reviewing the historical
development of electronic music
from musique concrète to

P
analog and then digital synthe-
sizers, the author finds that the
attainment of increased control
ierre Hébert, a frequent collaborator of mine, use outside of research institutions. and flexibility has coincided with
says the measure of a work of art is whether one can sense in Computer music was still confined the reduction of identifiable
it the presence of the artist’s body. If so, then it is a success, to crude programs run on main- bodily involvement by the
performer. He contrasts this
and if not, it’s a failure. frame computers at universities. trend with the highly physical
I think this is an important insight. It is closely related to the The thinking at the time was that intervention and manipulation,
issue of virtuosity, by which I mean what happens when some- these electronic instruments were first practiced with atypical
one acquires such facility with an instrument or paintbrush, or so new and different—their en- electronic instruments such as
the theremin, subsequently
with anything physically manipulable, that an intelligence and tire methodology and pedagogy
introduced to the electric guitar
creativity is actually written into the artist’s muscles and bones seemed unique—that they would by Jimi Hendrix and his follow-
and blood and skin and hair. It stops residing only in the brain lead to the creation of a new kind ers, and then to vinyl by
and goes into the fingers and muscles and arms and legs. of music. We eagerly searched for turntable artists. He concludes
Virtuosity has been out of fashion for years now, ever since the outline of this new kind of that the tension between body
and machine in music, as in
the advent of punk rock, conceptual art and other movements music that no one had ever heard. modern life itself, can only exist
that emphasize the idea rather than its execution. Neverthe- Today we actually do have a new as an experience to examine
less, virtuosity of some sort is a necessary element of almost kind of music that has come directly and criticize and not as a
any performance. from electronics, and specifically problem to resolve.
We all live in human bodies. Every one of us lives through from computers: electronic dance
every day of our lives in the reality of our bodies. We struggle music. Throughout the whole his-
to make them do the things we want them to do. We have aches tory of music prior to computers, no rhythm was absolutely
and pains. We know the joy of using our bodies in an expres- perfectly timed due to the limits of human accuracy. This was
sive and wonderful way, the frustrations of failure, and what it a good thing, however, as the nuanced irregularity in how the
was like to learn whatever physical skills we have—riding a beat was actually played was one of the crucial things giving
bike, playing a sport, typing, being sexual, anything. It is one distinctive character to different kinds of music. The precise,
thing absolutely every person has in common. So when you perfectly timed beat was a sort of ideal grid that everyone kept
give a performance that takes your body out of the mundane in mind but never actually played. With the evolution of jazz,
and into something extraordinary through art, it has a pro- the discrepancy between the ideal grid and what people ac-
found appeal—this appeal is the foundation of all perfor- tually played came to be known as swing, but there was no
mance. It need not be limited to virtuosity in the conventional music in the world that didn’t have some bit of swing. With elec-
sense of, say, a violin master. There are punk rockers who can tronic dance music, the precise mental grid that had been lurk-
barely play their instruments but whose physical stage pres- ing unheard for thousands of years behind human music was
ences—in body motions, voices or even just facial expres- pushed out front and center and made audible.
sions—are extraordinary. That’s revolutionary. It is a kind of music that could not exist
I think most musicians working with electronics are proba- without computers, and it is a natural outgrowth of using com-
bly not very satisfied with the state of electronic music today, puters with sound. Electronic dance music thus meets the cri-
and the crucial missing element is the body. Many of us have teria of what in the 1970s we thought must be coming in music
been trying to solve this problem for years but we have been but could not yet see, although it did not turn out to be what
notoriously unsuccessful at it. How to get one’s body into art anyone back then was expecting. In fact, many of us absolutely
that is as technologically mediated as electronic music, with detest this kind of music. But if we step back for a moment, it
so much technology between your physical body and the final is not so surprising that electronic dance music is what devel-
outcome, is a thorny problem. oped.
Of course, Hébert’s dictum, which began this article, about I remember when the first MIDI sequencers (easily man-
sensing the body of the artist in the art, should not be viewed ageable composition software for personal computers) came
too literally. It is not that it is impossible to put a sense of one’s out and everyone said, “Well, that’s cool, but it sounds so ma-
body into art made with assistance from machines. Hébert is chinelike no one will ever listen to it.” And the software mak-
talking about a sense of the corporeal presence of the artist ers busied themselves trying to figure out how to make MIDI
emanating from the work. It is not necessary that an artist sequencers sound human. But before they could solve the
“touch” an image or instrument in order to achieve this re- problem, a new generation of kids had come up who liked the
sult, but it certainly helps. machinelike quality of the sound, and if the software compa-
nies had then found a way to make their sequencers sound
human no one would have bought the software. Apparently
A NEW KIND OF MUSIC
I got into electronic music in the mid-1970s, playing analog Bob Ostertag (composer), 737 Capp Street, San Francisco, CA 94110, U.S.A. E-mail:
⬍bob_ost@pacbell.net⬎. Web site: ⬍http://www.detritus.net/ostertag⬎.
synthesizers, which were just becoming available for personal

© 2002 ISAST LEONARDO MUSIC JOURNAL, Vol. 12, pp. 11–14, 2002 11
our tastes acclimate to technology faster and splicing them back together. “Per- look like those of a piano and are laid out
than our ability to innovate technologi- formance” of these works consisted of in a pattern of 12 unique notes in an oc-
cally. playing back the final tape. In the late tave in the key of C, most people would
Or at least the tastes of young people 1970s I made some attempts to move tape understandably start to think like piano
acclimate quickly. Reaction to music with manipulation out of the studio and into players and to think in conventional
an electronically precise beat is the most performance by building contraptions of terms of harmony and melody. But the
generationally determined thing I have multiple tape recorders I could crudely situation was even worse than that be-
ever seen in music, or any other art form manipulate on stage, but this was a little cause acoustic instruments never sound
for that matter. I cannot think of a per- far fetched. two notes in exactly the same way. There
son I know over the age of 30 who likes Instead of using recorded sound, ana- are too many variables in how one’s fin-
electronic dance music, most certainly log synthesizers generated voltages that gers or breath actually produce the
not anyone over 40. oscillated at audio frequencies and thus sound. Just as small variations in the beat
In one sense, dance music solves elec- could be heard as sound when amplified turned out to be a critical nuance that has
tronic music’s problem with perfor- and sent to speakers. One way to “play” shaped different styles of music, small
mance by making music the secondary these synthesizers was to control the changes in sound from note to note have
event to whatever else is happening. Peo- shape, amplitude and frequency of their turned out to be crucial to the vitality of
ple don’t miss the performance aspect of audio signals with other voltage sources the sound (at least to the ears of those of
the music, because that is not what they that changed at a rate slow enough for us who grew up listening to music pre-
are paying attention to. They are either the changes to be perceived as distinct computer). It is impossible to get that
dancing, or chatting at the bar, or taking events instead of changes of pitch or tim- kind of note-by-note variation from a syn-
drugs, or something, but they are not fo- bre. This was a very enticing idea: since thesizer, and this is what gives conven-
cused on the performance. In fact, peo- both the shape of the sound and the tional music played on a synthesizer its
ple who make electronic dance music shape of a composition could be con- characteristic flat, machinelike feel.
have been going to great lengths to di- trolled in the same world of automated Thus, while keyboards and guitars at-
vert people’s attention from their actual voltages, complex and surprising systems tached to synthesizers were able to in-
presence: putting on light shows, show- could be set up within the synthesizer it- corporate synthesizers into conventional
ing films and videos, and so on. self, which produced music that was star- music in an often cheesy way, synthesiz-
One could argue that making dance tlingly new and different. “Composing” ers also promised something much more
music with computers is a backdoor way in this situation meant setting up the con- radical. Exploring that direction meant
of getting the human body back into the nections and parameters of the synthe- throwing out the keyboards and learning
music—however, the bodies are the audi- sizer so as to set in motion the processes to “play” the complex internal processes
ence’s, not those of the performers. So the one had designed, and “playing” the that seemed to be idiomatically indige-
physical bond of performance is that ev- composition involved listening to the out- nous to these new instruments.
eryone is dancing, while the performers put and intervening in the evolution of Digital technology soon developed to
hide behind a light show or a fog machine. the process one had set up by fine- the point that all the processes that syn-
Dance music has become so popular tuning parameters and connections as thesizers did through voltages, comput-
that it has changed the very meaning of things progressed. ers could do through numbers, and do
electronic music in our culture. In the This is what I generally did in the so more accurately, more flexibly and less
1970s, it was assumed that if you played 1970s. But whereas most others working expensively. Digital synthesizers and sam-
a synthesizer or were interested in syn- along these lines worked alone or with plers replaced tape recorders and analog
thesizers, then you were out on the fringe other synthesizer players, I moved to New synthesizers, but the analog synthesizer’s
doing something creative and unusual. York and immersed myself in the down- dichotomy between its use for conven-
The current situation is exactly the re- town improvised music scene, trying to tional music played mechanically and its
verse: If you tell someone that you make develop the skill necessary to set up use in unorthodox process-oriented
electronic music, they assume you are “play” processes in my synthesizer as music was carried over to the laptop fully
making dance music. Similarly, in the quickly and accurately as collaborators intact.
1970s, though few electronic instruments such as John Zorn (on alto sax) [1] or The problem was and still is how to get
were being built, they were specifically Fred Frith [2] (on guitar) could on their one’s body into the unorthodox kind of
designed for making music that was far instruments. performance we are talking about. It had
off the beaten path. Today there is a large A completely different way to play the been problematic enough with a synthe-
and specialized market for electronic synthesizer that also evolved during this sizer, sitting on stage and carefully mov-
musical instruments, which are nearly all time involved rigging a conventional in- ing a knob a fraction of an inch,
narrowly tailored to dance music. strument to generate voltages that could disconnecting a patch cord here and re-
control synthesized sound. Keyboards connecting it over there—with none of
were designed that translated the de- it correlating with a direct change in the
A BRIEF REVIEW pression of the keys into a voltage the syn- sound that the audience might perceive
Let’s review the early days of electronic thesizer could accept. Less successful as related to the physical motion. With
music, to see why things turned out the experiments used guitars, drums and the emergence of the laptop as instru-
way they did. Most of the earliest elec- other instruments as input devices. ment, the physical aspect of the perfor-
tronic music was musique concrète, com- Many people, including myself, mance has been further reduced to
positions made from collages of sounds thought the use of keyboards and the like sitting on stage and moving a cursor by
recorded on magnetic tape. In general, a dead end, for it meant using a great deal dragging one’s finger across a track pad
these were studio works first and last: of technology to play music that could be in millimeter increments.
painstakingly assembled by cutting up readily played with a piano or a guitar. This is often conceived among instru-
pieces of recording tape with razor blades When confronted with a row of keys that ment designers and programmers as a

12 Ostertag, Human Bodies, Computer Music


problem of “controllers”—that new kinds The theremin was very limited, how- films of him is a revelation; his guitar and
of physical devices are needed, the ma- ever: it could play one timbre, and that his body appear as one, and it seems that
nipulation of which could integrate more was pretty much it. Since the performer everything from his toes to his hair is in-
appropriately into this kind of perfor- only had control over volume and pitch, volved in shaping the sound [6].
mance than a keyboard, guitar, knob or its application was limited to performing The radical element in Hendrix’s work
button can. For years there has been fairly conventional music. Over the years was later developed by Keith Rowe and
much experimentation with “alternative the theremin also found a niche in mak- Fred Frith, among others [7]. These two
controllers” at research studios around ing spooky effects for science-fiction have approached the electric guitar ex-
the world [3]. I have tried many myself: movies. However, it does stand as possi- plicitly conscious of leaving behind the
infrared wands, drawing tablets, joysticks bly the only electronic musical instru- entire tradition of the acoustic guitar,
and game pads, video frames—anything ment on which one could become a starting from the idea that they were deal-
I could get my hands on. virtuoso. Clara Rockmore, in particular, ing not with a guitar per se, but with am-
Despite years of research and experi- became a bona fide theremin virtuoso by plified vibrating strings stretched over a
mentation, however, there is still no new any definition of the word and per- resonant body. By using amplification,
instrument sufficiently sophisticated to formed on the instrument in concert set- they found that even tiny disturbances to
allow anyone to develop even a rudi- tings [5]. the string could be made into musically
mentary virtuosity with it. I believe that The key here is that the theremin used useful sound.
this failure is rooted in the premise that actual skin capacitance as the central el- Interestingly enough, electronic mod-
the problem lies in inadequate con- ement in controlling the instrument. ification of the sound is not central to the
trollers. The bigger problem is this: What There were thus fewer layers of technol- work of any of these three musicians.
exactly are we going to control with these ogy between hand and sound than in Hendrix used a wah-wah pedal, which is
controllers we would like to invent? The other electronic instruments. The way just a very crude filter. When I first
performance software I have made does the theremin sound was generated and started playing with Frith, he was using
not require much data input to play. On the way it was controlled are an inte- no electronic sound modification at all.
the contrary, it requires very little. I grated package that one could literally Although later he began using a variety
might spend a whole performance mak- stick one’s fingers right into. Further- of foot pedals that manipulate the string
ing changes of very fine gradation to just more, the theremin was a conceptually sound in various electronic ways, the
a few variables. complete instrument that did not un- physical control of the vibration of the
If I had some really wild controller that dergo a constant series of revisions, re- strings and electronic amplification of
doesn’t exist now but that I could dream designs and “upgrades.” One could the same have remained at the center of
up—such as a big ball of a mudlike sub- devote years to learning to play it with- his work.
stance that I could stick my hands into, out worrying that all that hard work In addition to the electric guitar, the
squeeze and stretch, jump up and down would be made useless every 6 months by turntable has emerged as an interesting
on, throw against the wall and wrap an “upgrade” that changed everything. hybrid instrument, pioneered in the
around my head, resulting in a variety of The most successful electronic instru- Bronx in the mid-1970s by artists such as
parameter streams that would be seam- ment to date, however, came much later: Kool Herc, Afrika Bambaataa and Grand-
lessly digitized and fed to the computer— the electric guitar. This is not even a master Flash. And just as Rowe and Frith
even if I had such a thing I don’t know “pure” electronic instrument in that its took Hendrix’s guitar innovations sys-
how I would use it. I have no software that sound is not generated electronically but temically outside the bounds of popular
could use all that data and I don’t think physically, by a vibrating string that is music where they could be explored
anyone else does either. The problem is then amplified electronically. Within ac- more rigorously, Christian Marclay did
inherent in the very concept of the ademia it is not typically even included the same for the turntable [8].
music: if we are “playing” by intervening within the realm of electronic music, The turntable is now the focus of in-
in ongoing automated processes, then identified as it is with blues and rock and tense experimentation by an entire gen-
most of what is going on requires no roll. It took the genius of Jimi Hendrix eration of DJs, and the term “turntablism”
input from the performer, and subtle in- to blow the lid off the conventional use has come into vogue. Here again, we have
terventions on the performer’s part are of this instrument and point to a whole a sound that is generated physically: the
more likely to add compositional coher- new way of playing it as a whole new kind vibrations of a stylus as it is dragged across
ence to the result than big, dramatic of instrument. Hendrix’s crucial innova- grooved surfaces. Once again, the crucial
ones. tion was playing at high volume and element that the electronics provide is
standing close to the speaker to obtain amplification, which makes the very sub-
feedback that he could control in an ex- tle control of the stylus meaningful. Any
A DIFFERENT DIRECTION tremely nuanced way with the position further electronic processing of the
There were, however, some early elec- and angle of the guitar, the weight and sound is just icing on the cake. And fi-
tronic instruments that integrated the position of his fingers on the strings, even nally, once again we have a development
body differently. The theremin, designed the exact position of his entire body. that was missed entirely by electronic
by Leon Theremin in 1919 [4], produced At his most experimental, Hendrix music research institutions, coming in-
sound by means of the beat or difference made the most successful electronic stead from popular culture. People like
effect, using two oscillators at inaudible music to date. It is music that would be Marclay and the Invisibl Skratch Piklz [9]
radio frequencies to produce an audible impossible to make, impossible even to have developed substantial skills that re-
difference tone controlled by changing imagine, without electronics. It is also quire very fine control and techniques,
electrical capacitance. This variable ca- hard to imagine a musician on any in- something like virtuosity.
pacitance was made by moving one’s strument in any genre integrating In contrast, the approach favored in
hands around an antenna, sticking the his/her body into the performance as to- electronic music research facilities has
body “into” the sound in a most literal way. tally as Hendrix did. Even now, watching been to electronically process conven-

Ostertag, Human Bodies, Computer Music 13


tional instruments. For example, a clar- which prioritizes struggle and tension. Discography of Works by the Author
inetist performs with a second musician For we can explore this difficult terrain Say No More Project CDs 1 & 2, MVORL (2002). Orig-
who sits at a computer that records the without the catastrophic consequences inally released separately as Say No More (1993) and
clarinet sound and manipulates it in var- of weapons development, the astronom- Say No More in Person (1994). Re-issued in MVORL
limited edition in 2002. With Joey Baron (percus-
ious ways. With few exceptions, this di- ical costs of space exploration, the bio- sion), Mark Dresser (bass), Gerry Hemingway (per-
rection of work has produced stunningly logical casino of gene technology or the cussion) and Phil Minton (voice). Assembled on
computer from fragments of solo improvisations.
uninteresting results. Music that uses elec- profit imperative of high-tech business.
tronically generated sound from synthe- We might not be able to perform with ma- Say No More Project CDs 3 & 4, MVORL (2002). Orig-
inally released separately as Verbatim (1996) and Ver-
sizers or computers suffers from the chines, but we can play with them, which batim Flesh & Blood (2000). Re-issued in MVORL
problem that one cannot actually get may be the best thing humans can do limited edition in 2002. With Gerry Hemingway
one’s fingers into the generation of the with them at this moment of history. Ne- (percussion), Mark Dresser (bass), and Phil Minton
(voice). Third and fourth and final CD, from the Say
sound. Hybrid instruments like the elec- gotiating this terrain, however, requires No project. Assembled on computer (3) and recorded
tric guitar solve this problem by using that artists who use machines must do so live in Gent, Belgium (4).
sound sources controlled by the body and critically: not celebrating technology but PantyChrist, Seeland 510 (1999). With Otomo Yoshi-
amplifying them. But acoustic/electronic questioning it and probing it, examining hide (DJ) and Justin Bond (vocal).
collaborations, such as have been the rage its problematic nature, illuminating or Twins! Creativeman 0030 (1996). With Otomo Yoshi-
in academic computer music, make the clarifying tensions between technology hide (DJ). Resampled “twins” of parent tracks by
problem even worse by dividing the tasks and the body, and thus offering the kinds Herb Robertson, Chris Cutler, and Yagi Michiyo.
of the generation and control of the of insights only art can provide concern- Fear No Love, Avant 041 (1995). With Mike Patton,
sound and giving them to two different ing the nature of life at the dawn of the Fred Frith, Justin Bond, Lynn Breedlove, 15 others.
people. The sound might be generated third millennium. A Melody, No Bitterness: Bob Ostertag Solo Volume 1, See-
by an extremely skilled player with mas- land 508 (1997). Solo improvisation. Re-issued in
MVORL limited edition in 2001.
terful control over the sound, but this is
often all but irrelevant since that person All the Rage, Elektra-Nonesuch 79332-2 (1993). Kro-
References and Notes nos Quartet plays Ostertag’s transcriptions of gay
does not actually control the final output. riots in San Francisco. Libretto by Sara Miles.
1. For more information about John Zorn, see
⬍http://www.tzadik.com/⬎. Burns Like Fire (1992). Riots, country and western,
and gospel. Companion piece to All the Rage. Re-
A FERTILE GROUND 2. For more information about Fred Frith, see issued in MVORL limited edition in 2001.
⬍http://www.fredfrith.com/⬎.
The integration of the human body into Sooner or Later, RecDec 37 (1991). Solo. Based on a
the performance of music in which the 3. In the United States, synthesizer pioneer Don recording of a Salvadoran boy burying his father. Re-
Buchla has produced the most interesting alterna- issued on MVORL/Seeland in limited edition in
sound is generated by machines thus re- tive controllers, including the thunder, the light- 2001.
mains quite problematic. This should ning and the marimba lumina; see ⬍http://
www.buchla.com/⬎. In Europe, the STEIM studio Attention Span, Rift 14 and RecDec 33 (1990). With
come as no surprise. It is a fundamentally has been most active, basing a variety of systems John Zorn (alto sax) and Fred Frith (guitar). Re-
new problem. Before the advent of ma- around their Sensorlab; see ⬍http://www.steim. issued in MVORL limited edition in 2001.
chines that could automate sophisticated nl/⬎.
Voice of America, RecDec 907 (1982). With Fred Frith
processes, there was no performance 4. Leonardo Music Journal 6 (1996) published a spe- (guitar) and Phil Minton (voice). Recorded in con-
without the body. Since the body could cial section guest edited by Bulat Galeyev entitled cert in London and NYC. Re-issued in MVORL lim-
“Leon Theremin, Pioneer of Electronic Art,” which ited edition in 2001.
not be removed, no one had to worry included an article by Leon Theremin (“The Design
about how to put it back in. The problem of a Musical Instrument Based on Cathode Relays”); Like Getting a Head, Rift (1980). With Charles K.
a biography of Theremin written by his niece; an ar- Noyes (percussion) and Fred Frith (guitar). Uses un-
can be precisely dated to the moment orthodox instrument built from tape recorders and
ticle by his great-niece and theremin performer
when early tape music pioneers first put Lydia Kavina (“My Experience with the Theremin”); helium balloons. Re-issued in MVORL limited edi-
tion in 2001.
a tape deck onstage and announced that Bulat Galeyev’s overview of the life of and politics
surrounding Theremin; and other texts. See also Fall Mountain: Early Fall, Parachute Records LP
their performance would consist of hit- Bulat M. Galeyev, “L.S. Termen: Faustus of the Twen- (1979). With Ned Rothenberg (wind instruments)
ting the “play” button, and a confused au- tieth Century,” Leonardo 24, No. 5, 573–579 (1991). and Jim Katzin (violin). Recorded at the Oberlin
dience scratched their heads and asked, A bibliography of works by and about Theremin, a Conservatory of Music.
discography of theremin recordings and a directory
“Was that really a performance?” of theremin resources are available on Leonardo On-
Since then, the problem has been re- Line at: ⬍http://mitpress2.mit.edu/Leonardo/isast/
formulated again and again in various spec.projects/biblios.html⬎. Galeyev’s LMJ 6 text,
“Light and Shadows of a Great Life: In Commemo-
ways yet never solved. Nor will it be. For ration of the One-Hundredth Anniversary of the Manuscript received 31 May 2002.
the entire problem is just one window Birth of Leon Theremin, Pioneer of Electronic Art,”
is also available on-line at ⬍http://mitpress2.
into the tension residing at the very core mit.edu/Leonardo/isast/journal/journal96/LMJ6/
of modern life—that between the human galeyevintro.html⬎. Composer, performer, instrument builder, jour-
body and the machine. It is what struc- 5. Clara Rockmore is discussed in Kavina [4] p. 54. nalist, activist, kayak instructor—Bob Ostertag
tures our time and civilization. It finds ex- and his work cannot be easily summarized or
6. The best of the many Hendrix concert films is Jimi
pression in every aspect of our existence: Plays Berkeley (1971), available at most home video
pigeonholed. As a composer, he has released 20
work, play, health, reproduction, war, stores. CDs and has appeared at music, film and mul-
love, sex, politics and art. The fact that timedia festivals around the globe. His politi-
7. For information on Keith Rowe, see ⬍http://
musicians have not resolved this tension www.l-m-c.org.uk/texts/rowe.html⬎. For more in-
cal journalism has been published on every
indicates no failure of imagination on formation on Fred Frith, see [2]; in particular, see continent and in many languages. He designs
his recordings Guitar Solos Volumes 1 & 2. his own electronic instruments for both music
their part. It cannot be solved in the sense
8. See ⬍http://www.addict.com/issues/5.02/html/
and video performance. His collaborators in-
of a solution that can make a problem clude the Kronos Quartet, avant-gardists John
hifi/Cover_Story/Turntablism/History_Of/⬎;
disappear. It can only be experienced in var- ⬍http://www.egs.edu/faculty/christianmarclay. Zorn and Fred Frith, heavy-metal star Mike Pat-
ious ways. This makes it an excellent ter- html⬎. ton, jazz great Anthony Braxton, dyke punk
rain for art and in particular for artists 9. For information on the Invisibl Skratch Piklz, see rocker Lynn Breedlove, drag diva Justin Bond
who work from an aesthetic such as mine, ⬍http://www.skratchpiklz.com/⬎. and filmmaker Pierre Hébert.

14 Ostertag, Human Bodies, Computer Music

Potrebbero piacerti anche