Gestalt Therapy: A Relational (Re)turn

Speakers:

Mr Clinton Power Founder and Website Concept Developer- www.AustraliaCounselling.com.au Relationship Counsellor for Individuals and Couples Clinical Counsellor and Gestalt Therapist www.ClintonPower.com.au

Dr Michael Reed PhD, FMGANZ Foundation Member GANZ, Consultant Psychologist, Social Worker, Authorized Supervisor with Psychology Board of Australia www.ReedConsultancy.com.au

www.AustraliaCounselling.Com.Au

[START OF AUDIO] Clinton Power: Hello! This is Clinton Power from www.AustraliaCounselling.com.au Im here today with my good friend and colleague, Dr Michael Reed, whos the principal psychologist at Reed Consultancy Services. Michael has been practicing as a clinical social worker, consultant psychologist and psychotherapist for over 35 years. And Michael is the Foundation President of GANZ. GANZ is Gestalt Australia and New Zealand, which is the peak body representing Gestalt practitioners in this region of the world which is AustralasiaAustralia and New Zealand. He was the Chair of the Associations Ethics Committee from 1998 to 2006. And he was also awarded the honour of Fellow of GANZ in 2006. Michael runs a private psychology and psychotherapy practice in Crows Nest, Sydney, where he offers specialized psychological and psychotherapy services to adults, adolescents, couples and families, as well as professional supervision workshops and seminars. Michael is my former trainer and supervisor, so its a great pleasure to be speaking with him today and I couldnt think of no one better than Michael to speak about relational issues in psychotherapy. Weve titled this presentation Gestalt Therapy: A Relational (Re)turn. So welcome, Michael. Its such a pleasure to be speaking with you. Michael Reed: Thank you, Clinton. Its good to be here, and thank you for your kind words. Clinton: Well, I really appreciate you giving up us some of your time. I wanted to ask you to speak to me on this call about relational issues related to psychotherapy, because I think there has been such a movement in counselling and psychotherapy towards well, certainly an Interview with Michael Reed Gestalt Therapy: A Relational (Re)turn Page 2 of 13 2012 Australia Counselling & Consulting Pty Ltd

awareness of the importance of the relational aspects in psychotherapy. And Gestalt has certainly had relational aspects embedded in its history. So maybe lets begin with what would you say is the definition of relational psychotherapy? Michael: Well, I dont know whether I would necessarily be able to define relational psychotherapy. I think any psychotherapy that is deeply embedded both philosophically, methodologically, and theoretically in viewing the individual through the lenses of their relationships with the world around them, be it with the inter-human domain or with the environmental with the spiritual. Any psychotherapy that has that perspective embedded in its foundations would fall into a broad grouping of relational psychotherapy. Clinton: Why is relational psychotherapy an effective approach to working

therapeutically with people? Michael: I think that theres been a significant shift in recent years. Im sure many of the people that are listening if not all of the people listening to this recording are familiar with the discussion around modernism and post-modernism, but certainly Gestalt Therapy along with many other therapies that emerged in the 20th century adopt a post-modernist view. And that post-modernist view has its one of its foundation of perspectives viewing the human condition from a relational view. So rather than seeing it as the more traditional Descartes perspective of the individual stands in their own right, post-modernist view such as Gestalt Therapy hold that the individual has to be understood within the context- the situation- of their relationships within their world.

Interview with Michael Reed Gestalt Therapy: A Relational (Re)turn

Page 3 of 13 2012 Australia Counselling & Consulting Pty Ltd

Clinton: So this is about not looking at individuals in isolation but really looking at them in relational context to others. Is that what youre saying? Michael: Its not only looking at. I think the significant shift is its understanding the individual, be it you, be it me. In this conversation indeed, how youre orienting or mutually regulating yourself, so to speak, in relation to me, and how Im doing a similar thing in relation to you is the very thing that Im talking about. But to take you in isolation from me, I think is misrepresenting the realities that we live in. Clinton: Yes, yeah, very true. So tell me more about what is the Gestalt perspective on relational therapy for those people that arent perhaps Gestalt therapist s. Michael: Well, theres beenI would have to say the last number of decades a reemergence or as Dan Bloom from the New York Institut e refers to it as a relational return within Gestalt therapy circles. But I think its important first to appreciate what distinguishes Gestalt Therapy from other therapies. And its often a question that Im asked in the various teaching and training programs that Im associated with. But many people say, Yeah, but Ive heard, but that sounds like its existential psychotherapy. Or it sounds very object relations to me whether its a selfpsychology models or the British schools. But I think Gestalt Therapy stands out from other experiential psychotherapies through its unique attention to what is referred as to the figure ground emergence, the configuration of how we perceive and stand and experience the world around us. And the sequence of contact within the phenomenal field of the therapist and client- of me and the other.

Interview with Michael Reed Gestalt Therapy: A Relational (Re)turn

Page 4 of 13 2012 Australia Counselling & Consulting Pty Ltd

In my view and in the view of many others, this is really the essence and the heart of Gestalt Therapy today. And as I say, its what distinguishes Gestalt Therapy fro m other therapies. But embedded in that description is the word contact the sequence of contact. And contact was the word coined back in the early 50s by Gestalt Therapy writers, Fritz Perls, and Hefferline and Goodman, to describe what some people now refer to as the relational view. The contact is an aspect in therapy, but unlike many other popular versions of the term which defines a boundary that separates me from you, Gestalt Therapy in more recent discussions are focused on understanding contact as a unifying point between me and you. And thats where the relational is embedded. Clinton: Okay, great! Maybe just also explain figure and ground for those therapists that arent familiar with that term. Michael: Well, figure-ground really draws extensively from a form of a school of psychology that you dont hear too much about today even though its been integrated in the fundamental of many schools of psychology and that is Gestalt Psychology, a psychology that emerged in the late 19th Century in Europe, in Germany in particular. It pre-occupied itself with the question why do people perceive what they perceive? Because you can have three people looking at the same view and theyll view the view, perceive the view, so to speak, quite differently. The understanding that emerged from Gestalt

psychology was that we are wired neurologically to configure the world around us in our effort to make meaning of it and to understand the world around us.

Interview with Michael Reed Gestalt Therapy: A Relational (Re)turn

Page 5 of 13 2012 Australia Counselling & Consulting Pty Ltd

Its this figure-ground configuration that youre doing, so to speak, right now and so am I. If you like out of all the possible questions that you could ask me, one stands out in particular. It stands out not in isolation from the ground, its in the broader context of the conversation that you and I are having. It also involves whats your history, your intention in terms of what were willing to do here. And my response is similarly being configured in the figure-ground formation in my neurological functioning, which is not only just my brain but my whole body and my me, so to speak, in order to respond as clearly as Im able to, to your particular question so that our figures, so to speak, meet and are supported by the common ground between us. What Ive just walked through is really a dynamic or a perspective of understanding of the therapist-client relationship. Clinton: Well, what stands out to me as youre speaking, Michael, as well this is a dynamic process that youre speaking of. Michael: Yes, its a dynamic process that is accessible in the contemporary moment and moments. And thats the sequence of contact that I referred to earlier. Clinton: Lets talk about what are the ingredients that make up effective relational psychotherapy or lets say a Gestalt approach to relational therapy. If we were baking a cake and we wanted to get all the right ingredients, what needs to be there for us to attend to the relational? Michael: I go back to in many ways the fundamentals ofnot so much go back to, but draw on the fundamentals of any post-modernist view, and that is a paradigm shift in the perspective of the therapist in viewing the therapeutic relationship from offering explanations Interview with Michael Reed Gestalt Therapy: A Relational (Re)turn Page 6 of 13 2012 Australia Counselling & Consulting Pty Ltd

and interpretations to seeking to understand. And through that understanding, certainly from a Gestalt Therapy perspective, to raise awareness around how this person relates to me and how I relate to them. What informs me in my experience in relating to the other. I think another important ingredient, if I can use that term, is a well-written by fantastic present day writer, Donna Orange, who speaks of emotional attunement- for the therapist to seek and attune with the client, so that they are in sync, not necessarily in agreement, but are in sync in understanding what is occurring for the client in the therapeutic relationship with the therapist. I think the third thing that I would say is understanding the particulars of the language that the client is offering to the therapist. Because often, we assume that because I have familiarity with the word and I understand what that word means, the client also has a similar understanding of that word. Its those subtle differences that often contribute to whatagain Gestalt Therapy language nowadays is often referred to as disruptions in the therapeutic relationship. And the calling on the therapist to be have the courage to repair those disruptions or at least invest in repairing those disruptions with the client. That would be the four ingredients that I would see as a starting point in this discussion. Obviously with the limitations of time, we could discuss this and add to that list. This is just a starting list, so to speak. Clinton: Two things stand out to me from what youre saying, Michael. One is that the attunement is a delicate process and that youit feels, like, its delicate and that youre

Interview with Michael Reed Gestalt Therapy: A Relational (Re)turn

Page 7 of 13 2012 Australia Counselling & Consulting Pty Ltd

wanting to be very attentive to the meanings and the subtleties and the unique meaningmaking of the client. But the other that stands out is I think you mentioned it, is it does take courage on the part of the therapist to be able to perhaps speak up at those moments when we have missed the client or we have misunderstood or in some way made a mistake. Michael: Yes. Clinton: So it moves the therapist out of a position of the perceived expert. Michael: Yes. Clinton: So what are some of the challenges you see therapists have in working in this way? What are the some of the concerns you see arising for therapists when they start to move towards working in a more relational context? Michael: Well, thats a good question, because I would say one of the challenges that many of us face, and I include myself in this most certainly, is to undertake what has to be for what certainly Ill say for some, a massive paradigm shift. Its a shift from understanding the human condition that is not embedded with the right-wrong, I-you, me-other, dichotomy. And to shift into a desire at least, to understand the word for a relational perspective where there are no absolutes, where interpretation is unavoidable and needs to be acknowledged as such, where subjectivity has to be considered in an inter-subjective manner, where the individual is in contact with me rather than is separate from me. I think those challenges for me at least arent challenges that you can read in a textbook. But you have to really engage with thecertainly from a Gestalt Therapy perspective again, the experiential nature of learning which is not again of the traditional kind. Its how do I learn Interview with Michael Reed Gestalt Therapy: A Relational (Re)turn Page 8 of 13 2012 Australia Counselling & Consulting Pty Ltd

through experience and what supports can I seek that will enhance my learning and engagement with this paradigm shift. Clinton: So were not saying interpretation is off the table, but it needs to be held lightly. Michael: Most definitely, I think thats the term that is very appropriateI hear myself and colleagues say quite regularly that is- in some ways- of Frank Staemmler, a German Gestalt therapist and a very interesting writer, entitled a section of an article that he wrote around uncertainty. He wrote, We cannot not interpret. Its part of our makeup. Its part of our meaning-making. To what degree we hold on to our interpretation is the right interpretation- I think- is addressed by that statement that you made earlier by holding it lightly. Clinton: So Id like to ask you, Mike, about disclosure. Where do you see a therapists disclosure coming into this mix as well? Because from one perspective I can see that it may be quite vital and therapeutic at times, and then at other times perhaps its not an effective way to work. So how do therapists kind of navigate this idea of disclosure? Michael: This is a central question in my mind. In therapy the best of times particularly, when were talking in a relational context. Its a delicate issue. A fine line needs to be drawn. But what I certainly draw on is in considering those moments, and sometimes split moments that present themselves in the therapeutic relationship, is to consider this question, Will my disclosure and the manner in which I disclose and the words I use in my disclosure support the dialogue, support the contact, support the raising of awareness? And as I say, the answer to that question in each individual therapists mind is sometimes balanced finally on a moment. Interview with Michael Reed Gestalt Therapy: A Relational (Re)turn Page 9 of 13 2012 Australia Counselling & Consulting Pty Ltd

Clinton: Yes. So again, Im just captured by the delicacy of the exchange as well. Michael: Yes. And I hope that its coming through in this conversation that the idea that was certainly popular back in the 60s and 70s, that Gestalt Therapy is quick, confrontational, provocative, leading to a moment of realisation- the infamous aha moment is a far cry from the sophisticated and delicate manner in which Gestalt Therapy is being not only taught through the various training programs around Australia but also practiced by Gestalt practitioners. I speak for myself on that one. And I know that you hold a similar view and many of the people that Ive been associated with over the years share this view as well. Clinton: Yeah, I think thats have been part of a legacy of Gestalt Therapy, and when I interviewed Ashleigh Woolridge we talked about how the history of Gestalt has lingered, and sometimes not overly positive associations. But I think that there is a movement, and people are becoming more informed about modern practices in Gestalt. They are very different from how Gestalt was practiced in the 60s. Michael: Yes. Part of that I would like to think its because that the manner in which Gestalt Therapy is presented both to the general public nowadays and through various programs is engaging in a far more comprehensive way with some of the deeply philosophical and theoretical and methodological aspects of the practice. Clinton: Mike, Im wondering can you share with us a case study that might illuminate working relationally with someone and what can happen. Michael: Well, I just had a session just prior to coming online with you that involves a man who came to see me because he was experiencing rage-filled periods in his relationship Interview with Michael Reed Gestalt Therapy: A Relational (Re)turn Page 10 of 13 2012 Australia Counselling & Consulting Pty Ltd

with this partner and his children. And in our various conversations, it became clear that his history of relationships was one in which he experience them as he was either to blame for whatever went wrong or he was seen as a resource largely financial, which people used to fulfil their own needs. In our various conversations, its taken a while to form a common ground in which an invitation to stay longer than he would otherwise stay as he became frustrated and infuriated around whatever subject he was talking about. And what began to emerge was his fear around staying and the fear being that he was going to be hurt. We had a conversation today in which we went through the spectrum of his emotions and experiences and got to the end, and he said to me, You know, I never thought Id be able to do this. And that is to stay in a conversation even when I felt very angry, but to feel supported by you in being able to do that. And his parting remark was, Im leaving hopeful. So, I guess the important thing for me to highlight here was that the investment in building common ground between us and not just being caught up with the more attractive figure of his anger or his pain or his hurt, but focusing on how to support the sustaining of the relationship, and the meeting of two individuals in a way that would offer something different to him. And his parting remark I thought was reflective of how close we got to realising that. Clinton: Yes. I was listening to you describe that, Michael. I was just thinking how essential in working in our way was- would be for you to be in the room and to be finding that common ground. Its to have left yourself out of therapy room and to talk objectively about anger or rage or any of those emotions I imagine it just would leave a lot out that they could be explored in the inter-subjective the between you and him. Interview with Michael Reed Gestalt Therapy: A Relational (Re)turn Page 11 of 13 2012 Australia Counselling & Consulting Pty Ltd

Michael: Exactly. And if I were to make a hunch, and I call it a hunch, and some people might call an assumption, is that were I not present in the room he would pick that up very quickly. And he would present very differently. And certainly far less engaged and involved in the conversation. But thats a hunch. And as you pointed out earlier, it needs to be held lightly. Clinton: Yes. But again I think you highlight even just the theme of a client coming inhow essential it can be for the therapist to bring themselves to that meeting to the relationship so that new material can come from that. Michael: Well, I guess we can add that to our list of ingredients that you refer to earlier, and I would say appropriately so as well. But again, from a Gestalt Therapy perspective and certainly the dialogical aspect of Gestalt Therapy. The therapist being present, being inclusive, committed to a lively dialogue is fundamental to hold that dialogical perspective. So presence is an essential aspect, too. Clinton: Can you share any resources, Mike, for therapists who might want to explore this approach further? Michael: Well, there are resources in Australia and in terms of the training programs that are available. Theres certainly one here in Sydney, Gestalt Therapy Sydney. Im aware of and involved in and can highlight the relational emphasis placed on the training. There are various training programs overseas as well. In Santa Barbara, run by the Pacific Gestalt Institute, which runs a residential, usually around about March, probably now as we speak. And theres also a European residential program that is taking p lace in Budapest this year at the end of July. Theyre some of the resources are available.

Interview with Michael Reed Gestalt Therapy: A Relational (Re)turn

Page 12 of 13 2012 Australia Counselling & Consulting Pty Ltd

If you have an opportunity, some of the people listening to this recording- or interested in attending GANZ Conference in Melbourne in September. There are wonderful presenters who have a shared interest in promoting the relational view. One of whom I understand to be Donna Orange and Mark Fairfield from the United States. Clinton: Wonderful! Mike, well, thank you. I so appreciate you giving up your time today and talking to us about this fascinating and such an important aspect of therapy. Whats the best way people can contact you if people would like to make contact with you? Michael: You can call my practice here in Crows Nest, which is 02 9437 4765. Its probably the best way, although its usually on Do Not Disturb. You can contact me on my mobile which is 0412 011 350. Visit the website www.ReedConsultancy.Com.Au Or drop me an email at Michael@ReedConsultancy.Com.Au Id be delighted to respond to any questions that people may have that might emerge out of this conversation. Clinton: Thank you, Michael. I thoroughly enjoyed speaking with you, and I hope we can speak again soon. Michael: My pleasure, Clinton. Thank you very much for inviting me. All the best. Clinton: Bye for now. Michael: Bye, bye. [END OF AUDIO]

Visit http://www.australiacounselling.com.au for more information and resources for therapists and counsellors.

Interview with Michael Reed Gestalt Therapy: A Relational (Re)turn

Page 13 of 13 2012 Australia Counselling & Consulting Pty Ltd