KTR00138

BREERWOOD, GREGORY
7/10/2008
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 1 REPRESENTING THE U.S. ARMY CORPS OF ENGINEERS.
EASTERN DISTRICT OF LOUISIANA
2 CORPS OF ENGINEERS, OFFICE OF COUNSEL
IN RE: KATRINA CANAL BREACHES CIVIL ACTION
CONSOLIDATED LITIGATION NO. 05-4182 K2 3 (BY: DAVID DYER, ESQUIRE)
JUDGE DUVAL
PERTAINS TO MAG. WILKINSON
4 7400 Leake Avenue
(Robinson, No. 06-2268) 5 New Orleans, Louisiana 70118-3651
Deposition of GREGORY E. BREERWOOD, 6 504-862-2843
given at the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers New
Orleans District Headquarters, 7400 Leake 7
Avenue, New Orleans, Louisiana 70118-3651, on 8 ALSO PRESENT:
July 10th, 2008.
9 ROBERT FISHER, ESQ.
10 RYAN MALONE, ESQ.
11 DARCY DECKER, ESQ.
12 R. SCOTT HOGAN, ESQ.
13 RICHARD PAVLICK, ESQ.
REPORTED BY:
JOSEPH A. FAIRBANKS, JR., CCR, RPR 14
CERTIFIED COURT REPORTER #75005 15 VIDEOGRAPHER:
16 GILLEY DELORIMIER (DEPO-VUE)
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Page 1 Page 3
1 REPRESENTING THE PLAINTIFFS: 1 EXAMINATION INDEX

2 LAMBERT AND NELSON 2
3 (BY: HUGH P. LAMBERT, ESQUIRE) 3 EXAMINATION BY: PAGE
4 701 Magazine Street 4
5 New Orleans, Louisiana 70130 5 MR. LAMBERT .................................7
6 504-581-1750 6 EXHIBIT INDEX
7 - and - 7
8 BRUNO & BRUNO 8 EXHIBIT NO. PAGE
9 (BY: FLORIAN BUCHLER, ESQUIRE) 9 Exhibit 1 ................................15
10 855 Baronne Street 10 Exhibit 2 ................................15
11 New Orleans, Louisiana 70113 11 Exhibit 3 ................................42
12 504-525-1335 12 Exhibit 4 ................................48
13 13 Exhibit 5 ................................68
14 REPRESENTING THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: 14 Exhibit 6 ................................70
15 UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE, 15 Exhibit 7 ................................77
16 TORTS BRANCH, CIVIL DIVISION 16 Exhibit 8 ................................93
17 (BY: KEITH LIDDLE, ESQUIRE) 17 Exhibit 9 ...............................101
18 (BY: CONOR KELLS, ESQUIRE) 18 Exhibit 10 ...............................109
19 P.O. Box 888 19 Exhibit 11 ...............................134
20 Benjamin Franklin Station 20 Exhibit 12 ...............................136
21 Washington, D.C. 20044 21 Exhibit 13 ...............................141
22 202-616-4289 22 Exhibit 14 ...............................154
23 23 Exhibit 16 ...............................171
24 24 Exhibit 15 ...............................178
25 25 Exhibit 17 ...............................198
Page 2 Page 4
1 (Pages 1 to 4)
Johns Pendleton Court Reporters 800 562-1285
BREERWOOD, GREGORY
7/10/2008
1 Exhibit 18 ...............................199 1 GREGORY E. BREERWOOD

2 2 808 Colony Place, Metairie, Louisiana 70003, a
3 3 witness named in the above stipulation, having
4 4 been first duly sworn, was examined and
5 5 testified on his oath as follows:
6 6 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
7 7 Q. Mr. Breerwood, would you please give
8 8 your full name and your current address for the
9 9 record.
10 10 A. Okay, my name is Gregory E. Breerwood.
11 11 My address is 808 Colony Place in Metairie,
12 12 Louisiana.
13 13 Q. All right. And what is your -- you're
14 14 retired?
15 15 A. I am retired.
16 16 Q. Okay. As of what date, sir?
17 17 A. As of January the 3rd, 2007.
18 18 Q. All right. And I have an idea of your
19 19 background, but I would like for you to give me
20 20 a short synopsis of your background beginning
21 21 with your last employment.
22 22 A. My last employment, I was the -- what
23 23 they call the DMP, the Deputy for Project
24 24 Management. Prior to that, I was the --
25 25 Q. DPM?
Page 5 Page 7
1 STIPULATION 1 A. Deputy for project management.

2 IT IS STIPULATED AND AGREED by and 2 Q. At the?
3 among counsel for the parties hereto that the 3 A. At the New Orleans District Corps of
4 deposition of the aforementioned witness may be 4 Engineers. The remaining positions that I will
5 taken for all purposes permitted within the 5 quote will also be with the Corps of Engineers
6 Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, in accordance 6 all the way down.
7 with law, pursuant to notice; 7 Q. I understand. And you know that and I
8 That all formalities, save reading 8 know that but we've got a record to make here.
9 and signing of the original transcript by the 9 A. Sure.
10 deponent, are hereby specifically waived; 10 Q. And there will be other people that
11 That all objections, save those as to 11 look at it and they'll need know what those
12 the form of the question and the responsiveness 12 acronyms mean and what your actual position
13 of the answer, are reserved until such time as 13 was.
14 this deposition, or any part thereof, is used 14 A. Okay.
15 or sought to be used in evidence. 15 Q. So that's the reason I'm going to ask
16 16 you to reiterate.
17 17 A. Sure. I'll keep that in mind.
18 * * * 18 Q. Thank you.
19 19 A. Sure.
20 20 Q. Have you given depositions before?
21 21 A. Once a long time ago. Very long ago.
22 JOSEPH A. FAIRBANKS, JR., CCR, RPR, 22 Q. Okay. Let me give you a little short
23 Certified Court Reporter in and for the State 23 version of what I think is appropriate in the
24 of Louisiana, officiated in administering the 24 beginning of a deposition. You're under oath,
25 oath to the witness. 25 you know that.
Page 6 Page 8
2 (Pages 5 to 8)
BREERWOOD, GREGORY
7/10/2008
1 A. Yes. 1 A. Okay. I understand.

2 Q. And the same penalties for untruthful 2 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
3 answers here in this room apply as if you were 3 Q. And so as I say, when he, you know,
4 sitting in a federal courthouse. Do you 4 makes his objection, just ignore the objection,
5 understand that? 5 go ahead and answer the question, unless he
6 A. I do. 6 says do not answer the question. All right?
7 Q. Okay. From a practical standpoint, 7 A. I understand.
8 our court reporter is transcribing everything 8 Q. Okay. That doesn't mean that you're
9 that's said, so even though in normal 9 supposed to answer a question that you're not
10 conversation all of us tend to respond because 10 comfortable with. In other words, if I ask a
11 we know what's coming next, and sometimes we 11 question that's confusing to you or maybe I ask
12 talk over each other just for expediency, we 12 two at the same time and you don't know which
13 can't do that -- or we shouldn't do that in 13 one to answer, don't answer it, just tell me --
14 this deposition because it makes the court 14 you tell me I can't answer that question, and
15 reporter 's job impossible to have a clear 15 then I'll rephrase it and put it into a form
16 record. So wait until I'm finished and then 16 that you're comfortable with. Because I do not
17 answer, and I'll wait until you're finished 17 want you to answer a question that you're
18 before I ask a new question. Okay? 18 uncomfortable with or that you don't really
19 A. Sure. 19 understand. Okay?
20 Q. All right. The other thing you're 20 A. Okay.
21 doing, and you're doing it right, thank you, is 21 Q. All right. Now, I'm going to have to
22 respond verbally. Head shakes are fine, and I 22 give you this chocolate cake scenario. Okay?
23 can't stop you from the habits we all have in 23 And that is, a truthful answer to a question
24 communication nonverbal, but include with it a 24 can include I'm not sure but I think this, that
25 verbal response, for the same reason, so the 25 and the other. The reason for that is that
Page 9 Page 11
1 record is clear. Okay? 1 this is a deposition for all purposes, meaning

2 A. Sure. 2 discovery as well as possible trial testimony.
3 Q. Good. From time to time your counsel 3 That means I can ask you questions that are
4 may see fit to object. More often than he 4 broader in scope than I could if we were
5 should. But sometimes he does. And when he 5 sitting in front of a jury or in a courtroom.
6 does, don't pay any attention to him, just 6 For example, you know just by your own
7 answer the question anyway unless he tells you 7 experience that hearsay, for example, I heard
8 not to answer the question. Now, the reason 8 him say this and that, is probably not good as
9 for that is that this record may be reviewed by 9 far as evidence goes, and it's not. But it can
10 a judge at some point for use in a proceeding, 10 lead to discoverable evidence. For example, if
11 and the judge is the one that decides whether a 11 I asked you something about hydrology that
12 question is objectionable. And if it is, he 12 you're not comfortable with, you can say,
13 will strike the question, the answer, and 13 well -- and I'll just use an example. If I say
14 likely the objection as well, to clean the 14 to you, do you think wetlands reduce wave
15 record. For that reason, even though your 15 action, you could say, well, I think they do,
16 counsel may feel a question is objectionable, 16 because you've observed it or whatever but it's
17 he's going to let you go ahead and answer it, 17 not really my department, it's a hydrology
18 because if he's wrong we would have to come 18 question. I've heard they do, but -- in other
19 back and ask you again if he didn't let you 19 words, if that's the only way you know it. But
20 answer the question. 20 the truth to that question would be a complete
21 You understand? 21 answer which tells me what you think or what
22 THE WITNESS: 22 you heard or -- and so and so, and then give me
23 Is that correct? 23 a lead, if you can, as to where I can go find a
24 MR. LIDDLE: 24 comfortable answer, if you know. Okay? Do you
25 That's correct. 25 understand that?
Page 10 Page 12
3 (Pages 9 to 12)
BREERWOOD, GREGORY
7/10/2008
1 A. I understand. 1 (Exhibit 1 was marked for

2 Q. Okay. My chocolate cake analogy is, 2 identification and is attached hereto.)
3 when is the last time you had chocolate cake? 3 And then here's Number 2. This
4 Well, you may not know the exact date, but you 4 document came later on. I think this one has a
5 may remember it was at my daughter's birthday 5 tag on it '06. This one has a tag on it not
6 or a friend's birthday or whatever. And so you 6 dated. So I think this might have been about
7 could tell me -- if you just said, I don't know 7 the time that you left, possibly. (Tendering.)
8 the last time I had chocolate cake, that really 8 And wait, did I mark that one Number
9 wouldn't be a truthful answer because you do 9 2? Yeah. That's the later one, Number 2.
10 know, you know that you had it at a birthday 10 (Exhibit 2 was marked for
11 party. So if you told me, I had it at so and 11 identification and is attached hereto.)
12 so's birthday party, then if I really cared, in 12 A. Okay. So what are you asking? You're
13 other words, if it was important, I could go 13 asking me to verify them?
14 and track down that date. 14 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
15 You understand? 15 Q. I'm asking you, yeah, where are you on
16 A. I understand. 16 this Number 2 chart?
17 Q. So we could then establish when the 17 A. Number 2, you can see me here, just
18 last time you had chocolate cake was. That's 18 underneath the district engineer. Okay?
19 the example that I use in terms of a truthful 19 Q. Okay. And that's the DPM position?
20 answer. Complete truthful answer, that's what 20 A. Deputy for project management, that is
21 we're looking for. You understand? 21 correct.
22 A. I understand. 22 Q. Okay. And that's in Exhibit 2.
23 Q. Okay. Now, with all that having been 23 And then Exhibit 1?
24 said, we were at the point where you were a DPM 24 A. (Indicating.)
25 at the Corps of Engineers -- 25 Q. What is your title there?
Page 13 Page 15
1 A. Okay. 1 A. Well, they have the DPM is the acronym

2 Q. -- when you last -- when you were last 2 for Deputy of Project Management.
3 employed. 3 Q. Okay. So that was a chart probably
4 What about before that? And give me 4 done in the time frame between '05 and '07.
5 time frames so I can keep a track. 5 A. That's correct.
6 A. Okay. 6 Q. Okay. So they're both sort of later
7 Q. Approximate. 7 charts when you were DPM.
8 A. Approximate. Okay. Um -- I was the 8 A. That's correct.
9 DPM, Corps of Engineers in New Orleans, okay, 9 Q. Okay. Now it shows you, in both
10 from June of 2005 to my retirement in January 10 instances, in the same box with Col. Wagenaar.
11 of '07. 11 You're civilian?
12 Q. Okay. 12 A. Yes, sir.
13 A. Prior to that time, I was the chief of 13 Q. Okay. And Wagenaar is --
14 operations division at the Corps of Engineers, 14 A. Military.
15 about two and a half years prior to the DPM 15 Q. -- military. All right. So in both
16 position. 16 Exhibit 1 and 2, you're, looks like, the head
17 Q. Now, let me stop you there. I've 17 civilian in connection with the Corps of
18 heard the term -- by the way, I've got two 18 Engineers. Is that correct?
19 charts here which I'm going to give you right 19 A. At the New Orleans district, that is
20 now so we can maybe use them. One is a 20 correct.
21 directory, and I don't know the date, it's 21 Q. At the New Orleans district. Okay.
22 attached to a bunch of other documents that are 22 All right. Understood.
23 also part of an organizational chart. You can 23 Now, what about when you were chief of
24 probably figure out what date it is. 24 operations; is that the same thing?
25 (Tendering.) 25 A. No. Chief of operations division, you
Page 14 Page 16
4 (Pages 13 to 16)
BREERWOOD, GREGORY
7/10/2008
1 probably have -- 1 was December of '02 that I became chief of

2 Q. Here, see if you can find it on the 2 operations division.
3 chart. Either one of them. 3 Q. And before that?
4 A. You're looking for whoever was the 4 A. I was the assistant chief of
5 chief at the time on this chart? 5 operations division.
6 Q. Uh-huh. That would be your prior 6 Q. Okay. And who did you work for?
7 position. 7 A. I worked for Mr. Robert Schroeder.
8 A. That is correct. It's not on here. 8 Q. All right. Now, were these civilians,
9 Q. It's not on Number 2. 9 Russo, Schroeder, all these --
10 A. Yeah. Chief of operations division. 10 A. Yes.
11 (Indicating.) 11 Q. Okay. So back to this organizational
12 Q. Okay. And I'm going to circle this, 12 chart, is it fair to say -- and I just want to
13 which is on Page 2. And at the time, the chief 13 get an idea of how the structure works -- that
14 of operations position was vacant when this 14 the people that work here at the Corps are
15 chart was made; correct? 15 primarily civilian engineers, meaning non
16 A. That's what it says, yes. 16 military?
17 Q. Okay. So I'm going to check vacant so 17 A. Primarily, that's correct.
18 we've got a, um -- all right. 18 Q. Okay. And the military are confined
19 Okay. Under the operations division, 19 to the top ranks, administrative, is that --
20 it has the Mississippi River, Baton Rouge to 20 A. You do have the military at the top
21 Gulf, and it has the Mississippi River Gulf 21 ranks, but you do have some that are, you know,
22 Outlet, MRGO, and it's got in here ops manager, 22 filtered throughout the organization that are
23 E. Russo. Is that correct? 23 of a lower rank.
24 A. Can I look at it? 24 Q. Okay. With regard to the MRGO, is
25 Q. Sure. Absolutely. 25 there anybody involved during your tenure with
Page 17 Page 19
1 A. Yeah. That's correct. Edmond Russo. 1 MRGO operations, Mississippi River Gulf Outlet,
2 Q. Now, Edmond Russo -- and I'm going to 2 from an operational managing standpoint that's
3 put a circle around his name -- insofar as 3 military that you know of, below you?
4 operations division is concerned, did he work 4 A. Below me.
5 for you when you were the operations division 5 Q. Yeah. In other words, you're the
6 chief? 6 chief civilian.
7 A. He worked for me when I was the 7 A. Chief -- well, okay, this is -- now
8 operations division chief. 8 you're talking about when I was chief of
9 Q. Okay. And Russo's responsibilities 9 operations or when I was the DPM?
10 were primarily with regard to the MRGO? 10 Q. Both.
11 A. He had that particular project, and he 11 A. Okay. When I was the chief of
12 had other projects, as well. 12 operations we did not have any military that
13 Q. All right. What other projects? 13 was below me.
14 A. Um -- 14 Q. Okay.
15 Q. You can look at the chart. This is 15 A. Okay? When I was the DPM, there was
16 not a memory test here. 16 military that didn't report to me, but in a
17 A. Let me see. He had, um -- the outlets 17 comparable lesser rank, let's say, than I was.
18 at Venice, and with that he had Baptiste 18 Q. Well, I'm talking about in the chain
19 Collette and Barataria. Now, he may have had 19 that has to do with the MRGO, only the MRGO.
20 more, but those are the ones that come to mind. 20 A. No. There was no military that I'm
21 Q. Okay. All right. Now, how long were 21 aware of that was in that chain.
22 you chief of operations? I know you went to -- 22 Q. Okay. So in other words, you got
23 A. About two and a half years. You know. 23 Col. Wagenaar, then you've got you as the head
24 Q. So '02-ish? 24 civilian --
25 A. '02, I think it was -- yes, I think it 25 A. Good.
Page 18 Page 20
5 (Pages 17 to 20)
BREERWOOD, GREGORY
7/10/2008
1 Q. -- and before you were the head 1 A. No. It wasn't required.

2 civilian you were the chief of operations. 2 Q. Was there a particular area that you
3 A. That's correct. 3 focused on during your Master's program?
4 Q. Okay. And in all of those 4 A. No, I wanted to get a broad spectrum
5 instances -- and assistant chief, as well. 5 of, you know, of the engineering field, and so
6 A. (Nods affirmatively.) 6 I didn't specialize in any particular one, no.
7 Q. In the chain of command that had to do 7 Q. Okay. All right. Now, assistant
8 with the MRGO, there's no military in that 8 chief up through '02. How long were you
9 operation; correct? 9 assistant chief, approximately?
10 A. Well, the district engineer is always 10 A. I think around three years.
11 the commander. Okay? 11 Q. So that would take you back into '68?
12 Q. Well, I'm talking about -- above you, 12 A. '99.
13 that's correct. 13 Q. I mean '99.
14 A. Right. 14 A. '99.
15 Q. That's Wagenaar. 15 Q. Okay. And before that?
16 A. That's correct. 16 A. I was the chief of the readiness
17 Q. I'm talking about below. 17 branch.
18 A. Below me. Not that I can remember, 18 Q. And what is that?
19 no. 19 A. That's the branch that's -- they call
20 Q. Okay. All right. Now, you have a 20 it the readiness and emergency management,
21 Master's degree from Tulane in engineering. 21 which is more or less responsible for our
22 That's correct? 22 preparedness and response to disasters and so
23 A. Correct. 23 forth.
24 Q. Are you a professional engineer? 24 Q. Okay. All right. And how long did
25 A. Yes. 25 you have that position? '99 back to when?
Page 21 Page 23
1 Q. Okay. And what year did you graduate? 1 A. I'm thinking it's around '97. Now,
2 A. I graduated from Louisiana Tech in 2 please, you know, I'm recollecting here.
3 1969, and I got my Master's degree from Tulane 3 Q. No, I understand.
4 in 1977. 4 A. I think that's about that time.
5 Q. All right. In what particular field 5 Q. I had a cheat sheet here.
6 of engineering was your Master's degree? 6 (Tendering.) Take a look at that. See if --
7 A. Civil engineering. 7 is that something that you prepared? I better
8 Q. All right. 8 call it a synopsis.
9 A. Excuse me. In my Master's, it was 9 A. I don't know if I prepared this. I
10 general engineering. 10 could have. Let me just check and see the
11 Q. Undergrad civil? 11 dates. Some of these dates appear to be, you
12 A. Civil, yes. 12 know, somewhat a little different than what I
13 Q. And Master's in general. 13 recollect. Okay?
14 A. That's correct. 14 Q. Okay.
15 Q. What is general engineering? 15 A. You want me to go through them, or how
16 A. Well, it's a variety of courses; in 16 do you want me to do it?
17 other words, you know, you go through, um -- 17 Q. No. No. I just wondered if you
18 civil, some mechanical, um -- some industrial. 18 prepared that document.
19 You know, it depends on what you select in your 19 A. I may have, depending on, um -- at the
20 Master's program. 20 time I prepared it and what it was for.
21 Q. And what did you -- did you write a 21 Q. You probably didn't, because I don't
22 thesis or anything in your Master's? 22 see a Bates number on it.
23 A. I did not. 23 Okay. Back in -- according to this
24 Q. Did you have some sort of project that 24 little summary sheet, you, in the nineties, it
25 you focused on during your Master's? 25 looks like early nineties, were chief of the
Page 22 Page 24
6 (Pages 21 to 24)
BREERWOOD, GREGORY
7/10/2008
1 dredging section? 1 Q. Okay. Who would they have worked with

2 A. I don't think I was -- no, I was chief 2 or for in the Corps, on that program, if you
3 of the dredging section, to my recollection, 3 know? Or as best you know?
4 '84 to '86 time frame. 4 A. As best I know? Um -- I imagine it
5 Q. '84 to '86. Okay. And I take it that 5 would be with the construction division and
6 NOD, which is New Orleans District 's Y2K 6 planning division.
7 coordinator, is that the readiness section? 7 Q. Okay. And you can look at the charts
8 A. At the time I don't remember if I was 8 if you want, but what names come to mind of you
9 in the readiness section, but they asked me to 9 who would know something about the work that
10 be the Y2 coordinator for, you know, the 10 was done -- and I'm going to show you -- that
11 transition to the new 2000, for the district. 11 would be north of the lock and south of -- what
12 Q. Okay. Tell me what you had to do with 12 is this bridge?
13 the Inner Harbor Navigation Canal ship lock 13 A. Is that the Florida Avenue bridge? Or
14 replacement program. 14 is that Claiborne?
15 A. Well, on the replacement program, I 15 Q. Um --
16 had very little to do with that because that 16 A. Yeah. I think that's Florida Avenue
17 was a planning division effort as far as 17 bridge here. This is the Claiborne bridge
18 planning for the replacement of the old lock. 18 here. This is the St. Claude.
19 Now, as far as what I had to do with 19 Q. Right. And so it would be in the
20 that was to provide information to our planning 20 neighborhood of between the Florida Avenue and
21 division on information they needed, such as 21 the --
22 our operations and maintenance costs or certain 22 A. It's Judge Seeber bridge, but that's
23 operation and maintenance aspects of the 23 Claiborne.
24 existing facility so that they could plan for 24 Q. Okay. All right.
25 the new one. 25 A. Um -- well, the chief of construction
Page 25 Page 27
1 Q. Okay. I'm going to use this map up 1 division now is Bruce Terrell. Prior to that
2 here as a reference. 2 was Richard Hill.
3 Is this the existing lock? 3 Q. Okay.
4 A. Yes. 4 A. Chief of planning division is, um --
5 Q. Okay. And there's been a lot of 5 I'm trying to think who was chief of planning
6 conversation about maybe putting a lock down 6 division at that time. I think Mr. Bob
7 here and some other stuff, but was the -- I 7 Schroeder was chief of planning division at one
8 understood the last scenario was a lock 8 point. Um -- and then the planning division,
9 replacement in this same area. Is that 9 when they reorganized and there was no planning
10 correct? 10 division in the New Orleans District, all of
11 A. In that vicinity, yes. 11 that responsibility went to the DPM, which at
12 Q. Okay. And we know that there was some 12 that time, um -- I don't remember who was
13 work done by WGI along here in preparation for 13 the -- might have been Robert Tisdale.
14 that. Are you familiar with that work? 14 Q. He was before you?
15 A. Um -- WGI I guess I'm not familiar 15 A. Yes.
16 with. As far as preparation, I think on both 16 Q. Okay.
17 sides there was some facilities that were 17 A. Just prior to me?
18 removed in anticipation of the new look going 18 Q. Uh-huh.
19 just north of the existing facility. 19 A. No. Mr. John Saia was just prior to
20 Q. Washington Group International is WGI. 20 me. Prior to him was Mr. Robert Tisdale.
21 You ever heard the name? 21 Q. Tisdale. Okay. And you know that
22 A. Okay. I guess not. 22 there was work done, and let's get these two
23 Q. Subcontractor doing some of the work 23 bridges straight.
24 removing materials from -- 24 A. Florida Avenue.
25 A. I don't recall the name. But -- 25 Q. Florida Avenue is on the north end;
Page 26 Page 28
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BREERWOOD, GREGORY
7/10/2008
1 correct? 1 an alternate route for deep draft vessels to

2 A. Correct. 2 get into the inner harbor canal?
3 Q. And this would be the -- 3 MR. LIDDLE:
4 A. That's the Judge Seeber bridge on 4 Same objection.
5 Claiborne. 5 MR. LAMBERT:
6 Q. Judge Seeber Bridge on Claiborne 6 There you go.
7 Avenue. And then the existing lock is between 7 A. Well, I don't know if it was going to
8 the Judge Seeber Bridge and -- 8 be an alternate route, but it was going to be
9 A. St. Claude bridge. 9 one of the routes that navigation could get
10 Q. -- the St. Claude bridge, okay. 10 into that area, as well as the route from the
11 Now, the work that was done on the 11 MRGO.
12 east bank of the Inner Harbor Navigation Canal 12 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
13 was between these two bridges? 13 Q. Okay. So there we go. So let's do it
14 A. There was some facilities there, yes. 14 your way. It would be a route to get into the
15 And I think those facilities were removed. 15 inner harbor canal for deep draft vessels, one
16 Q. Okay. Now, what was -- 16 of the two, which would -- the other being
17 A. Excuse me. Could I stand up with you? 17 MRGO, correct?
18 Because my arm is getting tired holding this 18 A. That's right.
19 up. 19 Q. Okay. As part of the planning for the
20 Q. Oh, you know what? Let's do this: 20 Mississippi River Gulf Outlet, was there a
21 Let's pull out that drawer. 21 structure here at the Seabrook location,
22 Where was the new lock supposed to be? 22 Seabrook bridge, that was authorized by the
23 A. The new lock was supposed to be 23 original -- that was authorized along with the
24 between the Claiborne Judge Seeber bridge and 24 MRGO in the beginning?
25 the Florida Avenue. Actually, just south of 25 MR. LIDDLE:
Page 29 Page 31
1 the turning basin right here in the Industrial 1 Objection.

2 Canal. 2 A. In the planning -- you know, I was not
3 Q. Okay. And was it supposed to be wide 3 in the planning division so, you know, I'm
4 enough and deep enough to handle a deep draft 4 not --
5 vessel? 5 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
6 A. That was -- that is correct, yes. 6 Q. All I want know is what you saw.
7 Q. Okay. And so once it was complete, 7 Did you know that there was an
8 deep draft vessels could get into this inner 8 authorized structure at the Seabrook location?
9 harbor area either through the Mississippi 9 A. Okay, I don't know if it was
10 River or through the MRGO, correct? 10 authorized, but there was a structure that was
11 A. That is correct. 11 contemplated for the Seabrook location.
12 Q. Okay. And would you say it was 12 Q. Okay. And what year were you first
13 planned as an alternate route for deep draft 13 aware of that? Ballpark. Seventies?
14 vessels to get into the inner harbor canal? 14 A. I really can't recollect.
15 MR. LIDDLE: 15 Q. Eighties?
16 Objection. 16 A. I'm trying to think in what context
17 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 17 did I become aware of it and I could place it
18 Q. Go ahead and answer. That's one of 18 better. I'm thinking in the eighties.
19 those I told you about. 19 Q. Okay. Now, did you ever look at any
20 A. I almost forgot the question. 20 plans for a structure at Seabrook?
21 Q. See? That's the point. That's why he 21 A. Yes, I did look at some plans for --
22 does it. He's good at it, too, I can tell you. 22 it was a lock contemplated, to my recollection,
23 As we go along later it's going to get more and 23 at Seabrook.
24 more difficult to remember the question. 24 Q. Okay. In what time frame?
25 The question is, was it planned to be 25 A. Well, here again, I guess it's the
Page 30 Page 32
8 (Pages 29 to 32)
BREERWOOD, GREGORY
7/10/2008
1 eighties. Give or take. 1 the storm?

2 Q. Eighties. Okay. I'm going to get you 2 A. Objective.
3 to turn back around so we got the camera in the 3 MR. LIDDLE:
4 right direction here. Be careful of your 4 Objection.
5 cords. 5 A. Okay, I do recollect that the
6 A. Okay. 6 structure as it was designed, we wanted to be
7 Q. All right. Now, tell me what you 7 able to operate with all gates open at times
8 remember about the plans for the Seabrook 8 when the water levels were more or less equal
9 structure. 9 on both sides, where there was no difference in
10 A. The Seabrook structure, um -- from 10 elevation, which is the primary purpose of a
11 what I can remember, it was going to be a lock. 11 lock, is to get navigation from one elevation
12 And my involvement was the design alternatives 12 to the other.
13 that they had proposed is to give our input as 13 Q. Uh-huh.
14 far as, um -- the maintenance capabilities, the 14 A. And so we wanted to be able to operate
15 operational capabilities, to see exactly what 15 the facility wide open as much as we could, and
16 would be the better alternative from an 16 that's when water levels were level on both
17 operation and maintenance standpoint. 17 sides, but when the water levels would come up,
18 Q. Okay. Now, I've been through so many 18 you know, on either side then that structure
19 documents I'm well confused. And maybe you can 19 could be operated like a lock.
20 help me with this and maybe you can't. I 20 Q. Okay. All right. So it would have
21 understood that the primary purpose of a 21 two gates in order to let a vessel into one end
22 structure at the Seabrook location, which is 22 and close it inside of the --
23 there by the lake, was for control of saltwater 23 A. The chamber.
24 intrusion into the lake and also the volume of 24 Q. -- the chamber, and then raise or
25 flow, so to speak, because of the MRGO's 25 lower it depending on --
Page 33 Page 35
1 tidewater channel influence in that area, 1 A. The water levels on each.

2 meaning it was connected to the Gulf of Mexico. 2 Q. -- which way it's going.
3 Is that what you understood? 3 A. That's correct. Yes.
4 MR. LIDDLE: 4 Q. Okay. But you do remember that the
5 Objection. 5 discussions regarding that structure included
6 A. I really don't -- okay? Um -- 6 an alternative which is, of course, as much as
7 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 7 possible, gates open operation so you don't
8 Q. You don't what? 8 have to deal with the transfer.?
9 A. I don't -- I don't recollect 9 MR. LIDDLE:
10 exactly -- 10 Objection.
11 Q. Why? 11 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
12 A. -- the purposes of the particular 12 Q. From a shipping standpoint?
13 structure. I'm trying to go back now. Um -- 13 A. Like I said is that, you know, we
14 Q. Let me -- 14 wanted to be able to have a facility that could
15 A. I really -- I can't remember what was 15 operate with both gates open so that you could
16 the purpose of the structure itself. 16 facilitate navigation easier without having to
17 Q. Okay. And do you recollect that at 17 lock --
18 some point there were discussions about putting 18 Q. Right.
19 a structure there that was low level so that it 19 A. -- but have the capability to operate
20 would control saltwater and volume flow under 20 the lock when water levels changed on either
21 normal circumstances, meaning normal water 21 side.
22 levels and their fluctuations, but low enough 22 Q. Okay. Do you remember salinity as
23 so that it wouldn't interfere with surges, like 23 being one of the factors in considering that
24 for example a surge that would go through the 24 structure?
25 funnel from the MRGO out into the lake during 25 A. That structure? I don't recall.
Page 34 Page 36
9 (Pages 33 to 36)
BREERWOOD, GREGORY
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1 Q. Okay. And likewise, I take it you 1 surge? In other words, I'm just trying to
2 don't remember the control of current, volume 2 understand if you guys had those -- I say you
3 of flow of water, in that channel as being the 3 guys. If you remember those kinds of
4 purpose. 4 discussions.
5 A. I don't think -- to my recollection, 5 MR. LIDDLE:
6 that was not the purpose. 6 Objection.
7 Q. Okay. All right. So do you remember 7 A. I don't remember any discussion along
8 any discussions of the Seabrook structure in 8 those lines.
9 terms of storm issues? 9 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
10 MR. LIDDLE: 10 Q. Okay.
11 Objection. 11 A. I know that there must have been some,
12 A. Well, here again, you know, it's like 12 um -- I guess proposal on the height of the
13 any facility. When the water levels come up on 13 gates, and that would have been for certain
14 one side much higher than the other side, then 14 reasons, but I don't recall what those reasons
15 the gates are closed. Um -- as far as, you 15 were. Or why.
16 know, the storm situation where you would have 16 Q. Okay. All right. That would have
17 an approaching storm, um -- I think that was 17 been something up the line, meaning above your
18 considered, but I don't recollect to what 18 level, in terms of those considerations? You
19 degree. 19 were more involved with the operational
20 Q. Well, I mean, obviously -- nothing is 20 aspects?
21 obvious. Let me start again. Scratch the 21 A. Operation and maintenance --
22 question. 22 MR. LIDDLE:
23 I'm imagining that during a hurricane 23 -- objection.
24 event we're not going to be considering vessel 24 A. Aspects of that facility.
25 traffic going through there. 25 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
Page 37 Page 39
1 A. Typically, we close all of the locks 1 Q. Okay. All right. And, um -- and I
2 and facilities, you know, at some point when a 2 understand that.
3 hurricane approaches. 3 Do you remember discussions, whether
4 Q. Right. So in that situation, was 4 you were integrally involved or not, about
5 there -- this might be a silly question, but 5 surge levels in the inner harbor canal as a
6 was there any consideration given to the height 6 result of the funnel, meaning the MRGO and the
7 of the lock in the closed position in terms of 7 Intracoastal Waterway?
8 it being over -- there being overflow in either 8 MR. LIDDLE:
9 direction? 9 Objection.
10 MR. LIDDLE: 10 A. At any point in time in my career?
11 Objection. 11 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
12 A. The elevation of the top of the gates 12 Q. Yeah.
13 and the facility themselves, I don't recall 13 A. Well, um -- later on, after Katrina,
14 exactly what that was. 14 obviously then there was, you know, a lot of
15 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 15 interest and a lot of discussion on potential
16 Q. Okay. Well, I don't want to know the 16 surge levels in the inner harbor as a result of
17 height of it right now, or the elevation above 17 that storm, Katrina, and possibly future
18 sea level or anything else, I'm just wondering, 18 storms.
19 was there consideration of, in gates closed 19 Q. What about Betsy in 1965; post-Betsy,
20 scenario, um -- if a surge came from the inner 20 were there any discussions that you were aware
21 harbor canal up through the MRGO, could it get 21 of about surge levels in the citrus or Reach 1
22 out either into the lake -- presumably into the 22 inner harbor canal and that that you recall?
23 lake, or if a surge came from the lake, in the 23 MR. LIDDLE:
24 other direction, is there some mechanism for 24 Objection.
25 protection of the inner harbor canal from that 25 A. I don't remember any discussions on
Page 38 Page 40
10 (Pages 37 to 40)
BREERWOOD, GREGORY
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1 surge levels in that reach as a result of 1 Q. And those continued for a while?
2 Betsy. 2 MR. LIDDLE:
3 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 3 Objection.
4 Q. Okay. How about along Reach 1 -- I'm 4 A. Well, you know, we had several
5 sorry, Reach 2 which is down along the 5 projects ongoing, you know. As far as for a
6 St. Bernard portion by Lake Borgne? 6 while, we would supply the information and the
7 MR. LIDDLE: 7 discussion. As different facets of the
8 Objection. 8 planning process would -- you know, would be
9 A. Here? 9 ongoing or completed, they would call us and
10 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 10 ask us, what do you think about this design or
11 Q. Yes. In there. 11 that design, or that type of thing?
12 A. I don't recall. Are we speaking of 12 Q. What happened to that?
13 anytime or as a result of Betsy? 13 A. I don't know.
14 Q. Betsy. 14 Q. Is there a structure there at
15 A. Betsy. No, sir. 15 Seabrook?
16 Q. Okay. What documents did you review, 16 A. No.
17 if any, for your deposition today? 17 Q. And the new lock, meaning the larger
18 A. I looked at what they call the SF-7, 18 lock that would allow an alternate route for
19 which is a handwritten document for my career, 19 deep draft vessels into the inner harbor canal,
20 just on a yearly basis, so that I could 20 is that there?
21 initially answer some of the questions that I 21 A. No.
22 was expecting, and that was my career. And it 22 Q. Do you know why?
23 wasn't quite as clear as I had hoped it to be, 23 MR. LIDDLE:
24 but I did review that. 24 Objection.
25 Q. Okay. Do you have a copy of that? 25 A. Well, there's been some opposition to
Page 41 Page 43
1 A. It's in the truck. 1 that proposed new facility from the local
2 Q. Okay. Well, after the deposition, if 2 neighborhoods.
3 you'd make it available to counsel, he'll 3 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
4 decide whether to give it to me or not. 4 Q. Okay.
5 And just so we're clear on that, that 5 A. And as a result of some litigation
6 document that you reviewed we will mark record 6 that has been delayed. That's one reason why
7 wise as Exhibit Number 3, and then you can put 7 it hasn't been built.
8 that on it later. 8 Q. What about the Seabrook structure; do
9 And that's just your own review of a 9 you know why that's not there?
10 document that kind of shows you-- 10 MR. LIDDLE:
11 (Exhibit 3 was marked for 11 Objection.
12 identification and is attached hereto.) 12 A. I don't know.
13 A. To get my career -- the dates and so 13 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
14 forth, to get it, um -- 14 Q. Okay. All right. As I understand --
15 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 15 now we're going to shift gears a little bit
16 Q. Okay. Let me go back for a minute to 16 here and go over to the MRGO for a while. The
17 Seabrook. 17 MRGO was authorized to be a deep draft channel
18 You remember those discussions about 18 for access to the Gulf of Mexico to the inner
19 the Seabrook structure back in the eighties, 19 harbor canal back before you were with the
20 plus or minus? 20 Corps of Engineers, correct?
21 A. Well, I do recall some discussions, 21 A. That's correct.
22 yes. 22 Q. Okay. And so let's just skip how it
23 Q. Okay. 23 got there --
24 A. And our input to that, to the planning 24 A. Okay.
25 of that structure. 25 Q. -- and let's go to what I believe was
Page 42 Page 44
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1 part of your function, which was the 1 maintain that channel from a operations
2 maintenance dredging. Correct? 2 standpoint, meaning dredging operations -- not
3 A. Correct. 3 a planning, but dredging?
4 Q. Okay. And during a great part of your 4 MR. LIDDLE:
5 career, you were either a director or a chief, 5 Objection.
6 meaning you were -- up until when you left, 6 A. Yes.
7 when you were the head civilian in charge of 7 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
8 engineering operations, and operational 8 Q. Now, did you have any discretion in
9 operations at the Corps, or you were further 9 terms of the channel width and depth, or did
10 down the line and you were more directly 10 you need to stick to the design?
11 connected with the MRGO, dredging-- maintenance 11 MR. LIDDLE:
12 dredging. 12 Objection.
13 MR. LIDDLE: 13 A. The authorized dimensions of the
14 Objection. 14 channel, by Congress and by the authorizing
15 MR. LAMBERT: 15 document, that's what we always attempted to
16 Good. Because I was a little 16 maintain.
17 confused. Let me do it again. 17 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
18 MR. LIDDLE: 18 Q. Okay. That wasn't a discretionary
19 You can object yourself if you 19 function, it was an operational function,
20 want. 20 correct?
21 MR. LAMBERT: 21 MR. LIDDLE:
22 I just did. 22 Objection.
23 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 23 A. It was not a discretionary function.
24 Q. During your career, you were, all the 24 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
25 way up to the end, involved with MRGO dredging 25 Q. Okay. Now, I'm a little confused
Page 45 Page 47
1 most of the time; correct? 1 about the erosion issue. And I got a bunch of
2 A. In some fashion, yes. 2 stuff here which adds to my confusion, and it
3 Q. Okay. And sometimes more directly 3 has to do with the side slopes. Let me just
4 than others, correct? 4 show you this document which is a 2001 document
5 A. Correct. 5 which would have been while you were assistant
6 Q. Okay. Now, I have a bunch of stuff 6 chief of operations. And I'm going to ask you
7 here. I hope I don't need it all. Anyway, I 7 to start off by looking at Page 2. And the
8 understand that the objective or authorization 8 part that I'm interested in is in the
9 for the Corps was to keep a channel open for 9 description. And it says, the current banks --
10 deep draft vessels that's 500 feet wide and 10 oh, I tell you what. Let me just get you to
11 36 feet deep, sometimes a little deeper, in 11 read this down to where I ask you to stop. And
12 order to provide a lane for vessels to traverse 12 I just marked it. (Tendering.) This is going
13 from the Gulf of Mexico into the inner harbor 13 to be Exhibit Number 4.
14 canal. 14 (Exhibit 4 was marked for
15 MR. LIDDLE: 15 identification and is attached hereto.)
16 Objection. 16 A. Okay.
17 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 17 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
18 Q. Correct? 18 Q. Page 2.
19 A. Well, from my understanding, the 19 A. Okay, I was just -- is it okay?
20 purpose of the channel was to provide 20 Q. Oh, absolutely.
21 navigation access from the gulf all through 21 A. I was just seeing the chain.
22 that area into the Industrial Canal, yes. 22 Q. No. Take your time. And tell me what
23 Q. Was yours a O&M, operation and 23 the chain shows you as you look at it. Where
24 maintenance -- was your job, and I'm speaking 24 are you in there?
25 in terms of the New Orleans District, to 25 A. Okay. I'm just starting at the top.
Page 46 Page 48
12 (Pages 45 to 48)
BREERWOOD, GREGORY
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1 The last is from Don Rawson. 1 B, italics, item, could cover the quantity over
2 Q. And who is Don Rawson? 2 that up to the high end value of perhaps 1
3 A. Don Rawson was in engineering division 3 vertical to 4 horizontal. ED-LW -- which I
4 at the time. And I see here David Vigh who was 4 think stands for engineering division, LW I'm
5 in the planning division. Then there's Edmond 5 not sure what it is -- is addressing this in
6 which is Edmond Russo. 6 conjunction with ED-LC.
7 Q. Russo, right. 7 Q. Well, you've got a better guess of
8 A. Right. Okay. So you want me to read 8 what LW and LC mean than I do. Engineering
9 what you have -- how far down? 9 division --
10 Q. Yeah. Just start reading and I'll 10 A. It's engineering division. I'm
11 tell you when to stop. Because there's a part 11 looking up here to see if, um -- either Rawson
12 in there that I just don't understand, and you 12 was in that or not. I don't know what LW or LC
13 can tell me. 13 stands for.
14 A. Okay. We understand from ED -- 14 Q. Okay. Keep going.
15 engineering division -- that a geotechnical 15 A. A quick BCOE review -- and that's the,
16 stability analysis would be required to better 16 um -- Corps of Engineers, which is COE. B, I
17 define the flotation channel dredging quantity. 17 forget what that stand for. A quick BCOE
18 This is due to the uncertainty of amount of the 18 review and certification would be necessary for
19 bank sloughing that could occur during this 19 this amendment to proceed. The amendment
20 dredging work. The current banks, and in 20 flotation channel specs may need to state that
21 parentheses, consolidated, desiccated, 21 other plant, such as grading units and mat
22 hydraulically-placed dredge materials, close 22 sinking units, may at some point be working in
23 parens, stand near vertical, open parentheses, 23 the flotation channel contract reach. ED-LW
24 by observation, close parentheses, and protrude 24 should consider adding such language if deemed
25 more or less about four feet above the still 25 appropriate.
Page 49 Page 51
1 waterline. In the test reach, the erosion rate 1 Should I continue?

2 is about 18 feet per year. This is based on an 2 Q. No, that's good enough for now.
3 average computed from the total amount of 3 What's that mean?
4 bankline retreat since channel construction. 4 A. Um --
5 Considering all of this, a conservative 5 MR. LIDDLE:
6 dredging quantity would result from a bank 6 Objection.
7 sloughing angle of repose of 1 vertical on 3 7 A. That is a long paragraph that I would
8 horizontal. A liberal estimate might be 1 8 have to read several, several times to even get
9 vertical on 4 horizontal or 5 horizontal. The 9 a clue. I have to be very honest with you.
10 liberal extreme would not seem as likely as the 10 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
11 conservative estimate, based on the observed 11 Q. Okay.
12 near vertical bankline that exists where there 12 A. Um -- this, I'm thinking, is from
13 is a 1 to 3 times a day frequency of wave 13 Edmond Russo.
14 impact. The total wave height for a ship 14 Q. Right.
15 passage in this case appears to be on the order 15 A. Okay? And Edmond was the project
16 of about six feet tall from the low elevation 16 manager, apparently, at the time.
17 during a drawdown to the high point of the 17 Q. Of?
18 return wave when a ship passes. Bottom line: 18 A. Of the MRGO. Mississippi River Gulf
19 A subdivided bid item might be needed to cover 19 Outlet.
20 this set of conditions where, 1, in 20 Q. Okay.
21 parentheses, the A, in italics, item could 21 A. Okay? And he was writing to
22 cover the flotation channel quantity plus the 22 engineering division to prepare the plans and
23 amount of bank sloughing that would occur if 23 specifications for an upcoming contract.
24 the bank angle of repose of the 1 vertical on 3 24 Q. Okay.
25 horizontal occurred, and 2, in parentheses, the 25 A. And he was looking for alternatives in
Page 50 Page 52
13 (Pages 49 to 52)
BREERWOOD, GREGORY
7/10/2008
1 the contract. That's the general idea I get 1 A. Okay. Sorry.

2 from what he's trying to write here, if I've 2 Q. Okay.
3 read it correctly. 3 A. A ship in combination with the channel
4 Q. Oh, I understand. But, now let's go 4 operates like a big pump sucking water from in
5 to this discussion of sloughing, which is 5 front of the ship and pushing it out behind.
6 erosion, right? 6 This lowers the stage in the channel and drains
7 A. Correct. 7 water from the marsh. As the ship passes, the
8 Q. And the description is of what occurs 8 displaced water returns like a tidal bore, and
9 because of ship wave, drawdown and the wave 9 the ship wave arrives at the bank almost
10 height, correct? 10 simultaneously. The result is large wave
11 MR. LIDDLE: 11 forces on the bank or, if there is one, on the
12 Objection. 12 foreshore dike.
13 A. (Nods affirmatively.) Well, he's 13 Q. Okay. So it's clear that, and we're
14 talking about sloughing as a result of erosion 14 going to go back to this part right here again,
15 of the banks -- or wherever it is. Not 15 back to Page 2. By the way, you're welcome to
16 necessarily the banks, but anything in that 16 look at all of that in context if you want to.
17 particular reach, the way I see it. Okay? 17 Let me tell you how I get these. You
18 Um -- you know, and then it could be caused by 18 see these numbers right here? These are Bates
19 vessels, ships in particular. 19 numbers. These are put on this document when
20 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 20 it's provided to us by the government. And if
21 Q. Well, and that's what he's talking 21 you can take look at this sequence, this is
22 about, because he says an event of three times 22 Bates Number NED-187-000000471. And thence
23 a day, and he describes the event, which is the 23 472, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and then 80, 1, 2 is
24 drawdown and then the wake. Correct? 24 the page that I asked you to look at second,
25 A. Correct. 25 82, and then 3, 4, and it continues in a
Page 53 Page 55
1 MR. LIDDLE: 1 sequence up through 504. And I tell you that

2 Objection. 2 because I don't know what those are all stapled
3 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 3 together for, but that's the way we got them.
4 Q. Okay. So he's talking about erosion 4 And so that's why they're stapled together when
5 of the banklines of the MRGO due to 5 I give them to you. And if you would take the
6 navigational issues, meaning ship wake, 6 time to look through them, and you can if you
7 correct? 7 want, we'll turn the camera off so we don't
8 MR. LIDDLE: 8 waste a bunch of film, but they all have to do
9 Objection. 9 with this same sequence of communication,
10 A. Well, here again, you know, what he's 10 E-mails and so on.
11 trying to infer here or do, I'm not -- I can't 11 Now, let me -- and I tell you that
12 speak for him. 12 because I want you to know that this is a
13 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 13 series of documents I didn't put together, I
14 Q. Let me help you. And I've had the 14 got it in this form from the government.
15 opportunity to look at this more than you, but 15 Do you understand that?
16 we can get some more descriptive terms of the 16 A. I understand.
17 ship wake if we go further into the document, 17 Q. Okay. Now, let's go back to this,
18 particularly this part where I've yellowed here 18 which is the description of the 1:3, 1:4 and
19 on Page 13 is it? 19 1:5. Do you see that?
20 A. 13. 20 A. There are several references to it,
21 Q. Yeah. And if you'd read this section 21 yes.
22 starting here. 22 Q. Yeah. And 1:3 is, I take it, a side
23 A. Okay. I'm reading. It says -- 23 slope of a channel, for each foot you got three
24 Q. And you need to lift your voice just a 24 feet. (Indicating.)
25 little bit. 25 Is that correct?
Page 54 Page 56
14 (Pages 53 to 56)
BREERWOOD, GREGORY
7/10/2008
1 MR. LIDDLE: 1 1:2 slope, and the channel begins to erode, as

2 Objection. 2 this one does, because of ship wake which is
3 A. That's correct. 3 described in this document, why isn't there
4 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 4 some attempt on the part of the Corps to
5 Q. And then 1:4 is what they call the 5 control the erosion?
6 conservative estimate. That would be 1 foot, 4 6 MR. LIDDLE:
7 feet. Correct? (Indicating.) 7 Objection.
8 A. Horizontal. You said conservative. 8 A. Erosion control was never a authorized
9 Now, you know, depending on -- 9 project purpose. The project purpose was to
10 Q. Which way you look at it. 10 dredge the channel for navigation. Um -- and
11 A. That's right. 11 there was never any authorizing, like I'm
12 Q. And there's a 1:5 mentioned in there, 12 saying, document to direct us to prevent
13 too, correct? 13 erosion as a result of the ship wake or
14 A. It says 1:5 horizontal, that's 14 anything else.
15 correct. 15 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
16 Q. And there's a loss of 18 feet per year 16 Q. Okay. So erosion was never an
17 mentioned in that same paragraph, correct? 17 authorized -- what did you call it?
18 A. That is correct. 18 A. Wasn't part of the authorizing
19 Q. Okay. Now, Design Memorandum Number 1 19 document.
20 has the dimensions of the channel in it. This 20 Q. Okay.
21 is way back before your time. I can show it to 21 A. Now, this is to my recollection now.
22 you. I'll do that in just a minute. It says 22 Q. No.
23 that the channel design is 500 feet -- we're 23 A. You know, it was authorized way back
24 talking through the land cut now, when it gets 24 when.
25 out down into Breton Sound it gets a little 25 Q. You're the highest ranking civilian
Page 57 Page 59
1 wider and a little deeper through that channel 1 that's maintaining this MRGO for a long time.
2 cut, but we're just talking right now about 2 And I just want to know what you think.
3 this reach around Lake Borgne. 500 feet 3 A. Okay.
4 deep -- I'm sorry. 500 feet wide, 36 feet 4 Q. Okay?
5 deep, then you've got a 2-foot tolerance so you 5 A. Sure.
6 can go to 38, and then I've seen some stuff 6 Q. You're not going to go back and check
7 about overdredging which gets you to 40. And 7 a bunch of documents every time you read a
8 my math is no good unless I use round numbers, 8 piece of paper like this, and it was your
9 so I use 40, and it works easier with 500. So 9 understanding that the authorizing
10 I go about 500:40. 10 documentation did not include dealing with
11 Now, it then says, a 1:2 slope, on the 11 erosion problems. Correct?
12 sides, through the land cut. This shows that 12 MR. LIDDLE:
13 the best case scenario is 1:3. The most likely 13 Objection.
14 scenario, in my book, from reading that is 1:4, 14 A. That's my recollection.
15 and then there's a discussion about a 1:5. All 15 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
16 of which are significantly greater than 1:2. 16 Q. Okay. So it is not within your
17 You with me so far? 17 discretion, operating the MRGO, to then take on
18 A. Yes. 18 the issue of erosion, correct?
19 MR. LIDDLE: 19 MR. LIDDLE:
20 I object to that, if there's a 20 Objection.
21 question there. 21 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
22 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 22 Q. You want the question again?
23 Q. So my question is, if the Design 23 A. No, I heard you.
24 Memorandum Number 1 calls for a 500-foot wide 24 Q. Okay.
25 channel at the bottom and 40 feet deep, with a 25 A. I think I did.
Page 58 Page 60
15 (Pages 57 to 60)
BREERWOOD, GREGORY
7/10/2008
1 Q. Okay. 1 MR. LIDDLE:

2 A. Um -- erosion, in my -- is incidental 2 Objection.
3 to the utilization of the channel, and there 3 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
4 would be wave wash from ships, and just tidal 4 Q. As has been described in this
5 exchanges or whatever the case may be. All 5 document.
6 right? Um -- we maintained the channel to 6 MR. LIDDLE:
7 authorized dimensions as best we could. All 7 Objection.
8 right? Um -- and in that process we would 8 A. Well, from my understanding of the
9 remove material wherever -- however it came in. 9 channel itself, it was a combination of things,
10 And it was, you know, obvious that some of it 10 but one of the primary causes for the bank
11 came in from the banks of the channel. 11 erosion was the ship wake, yes.
12 All right. Now, as far as any erosion 12 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
13 protection to prevent that? Um -- I can't 13 Q. Okay. Because what you've got as
14 recall that, you know, we were ever authorized 14 what's described in this document is three
15 to do that, you know, or that the authorizing 15 times a day, on the average, during its use,
16 document allowed us to do it. 16 you got this event where you get a significant
17 Q. Okay. So let's -- let me make sure I 17 drawdown in front of the vessel because of its
18 understand your answer. You have a mandate, as 18 size and the channel, and then you get the wave
19 you understood it in your capacities with the 19 action of the displacement which creates this
20 MRGO, whether you were chief or whether you 20 six-foot multiple wave event on the banks,
21 were -- chief of operations or whether were 21 correct?
22 more directly connected with dredging, to keep 22 MR. LIDDLE:
23 the ship channel open. And that's basically 23 Objection.
24 the bottom, meaning the 500 feet wide, 36 plus 24 A. Well, according to his document, this
25 feet -- 40 feet deep, so that a vessel can pass 25 is what he's saying. Okay? Depending on
Page 61 Page 63
1 back and forth. Correct? 1 the -- well, can I continue?

2 A. That's correct. 2 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
3 MR. LIDDLE: 3 Q. Sure. By all means.
4 Objection. 4 A. I was going to say, depending on the
5 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 5 vessel, its shape, size and speed, would
6 Q. Okay. And that -- for that, you have 6 determine how big the wake was.
7 no discretion; in other words, that is a 7 Q. Have you been out in the MRGO when a
8 function which is an operational function by 8 large ship passed?
9 the Corps of Engineers to maintain that channel 9 A. I have, yes.
10 for the purpose of navigation by keeping that 10 Q. Okay. And I don't want to debate this
11 channel open. Correct? 11 with you because I think you've already told
12 MR. LIDDLE: 12 me, but I don't want you crawfishing on me
13 Objection. 13 either, okay?
14 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 14 A. Okay.
15 Q. Go ahead and answer. 15 Q. This is a 2001 document, which you're
16 A. Yes. 16 welcome to look at, having to do with
17 Q. Okay. Now, you know, not only through 17 contemplation of mats. You're copied on this
18 looking at this 2001 document but also based on 18 E-mail, and I'm going to read the language that
19 your experience, that the erosion along the 19 I'm talking about so we can get past this
20 banks of the MRGO was occurring as a result 20 issue. It says, I would like to send Harley
21 of -- and let's forget subsidence right now, 21 Winer or go myself on the next inspection of
22 okay? Just forget it. Okay? The primary 22 the MRGO with respect to installing ACMs along
23 reason for the erosion on the banks of the MRGO 23 the bank.
24 is not the sinking of anything, it's the ship 24 Now, those are mats, correct?
25 wake, correct? 25 A. Articulated concrete mats.
Page 62 Page 64
16 (Pages 61 to 64)
BREERWOOD, GREGORY
7/10/2008
1 Q. Right. And those are -- this is 1 have the best disposal dike that would still be
2 discussion about using articulated concrete 2 there, okay, and not slough into the channel as
3 mats to control this erosion that we're 3 a result of the channel eroding.
4 discussing right now, correct? 4 Q. Okay. So maybe we're saying the same
5 MR. LIDDLE: 5 thing. What you're saying is, it gives you a
6 Objection. 6 place to put dredged material behind this dike,
7 A. It was a combination -- if I'm not 7 so you've got a place to put disposed material,
8 mistaken, it was, um -- it came along with some 8 and it's going to keep it from coming back into
9 type of testing that I think Edmond wanted to 9 the channel, and that's to deal with this
10 do to not just prevent the erosion, in 10 erosion issue, correct?
11 combination, but also to be a, um -- part of 11 A. It's to deal with the bankline
12 the disposal dike. 12 retreating, which is erosion, yes.
13 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 13 Q. Okay. It goes on to say, on this
14 Q. Right. 14 document which I'm going to mark for
15 A. Yeah. 15 identification as Exhibit Number 5, NED-087, a
16 Q. So you could beneficially use dredge 16 bunch of zeros, 562. And this is 563 that I'm
17 materials, BUMP or whatever it was? 17 reading from: I read the first sentence
18 A. So we could put the material behind 18 already but I'll read it again. I would like
19 the dike and a better dike could be 19 to send Mr. Harley Winer or go myself on the
20 constructed. 20 next inspection of the MRGO with respect to
21 Q. And it would help restore this 21 installing ACM along the bank. Next paragraph:
22 wetland. 22 Unfortunately, unless you happen to be there
23 A. Well, that was all part of the -- you 23 when a container ship flies by, you don't get
24 know, the project was to maintain the channel. 24 the perspective of the drawdown and the ship
25 Q. Right. 25 wave effect. Maybe we can get the sinking unit
Page 65 Page 67
1 A. Okay? And to put the -- in this case, 1 chief and mat boat foreman to ride on one of
2 it was ACM. But there was other, I think, 2 these ships through the MRGO. The wake from
3 um -- possibilities, potentials looked at as 3 crew boats and large tows are tiny in
4 far as what would be better to make a dike and 4 comparison to the ship effect on the bankline.
5 at the same time prevent some erosion. 5 (Tendering.) Do you see that?
6 Q. And this was for -- and let's get real 6 (Exhibit 5 was marked for
7 clear on this: This is because of the ship 7 identification and is attached hereto.)
8 wake. 8 A. Okay. This is from Adrian Combe who
9 MR. LIDDLE: 9 is in hydraulics and engineering division, if I
10 Objection. 10 can remember correctly, to Steve Ellis and Don
11 A. Well, from my understanding, it was 11 Rawson. And that is in engineering division,
12 because the, um -- the disposal dike. 12 as well.
14 Q. You need to answer my question, and 14 Q. Okay. Have I read it correctly?
15 you can tell me anything you want. 15 A. Okay. So -- do you want me to read
16 What we're talking about here is 16 it?
17 protecting bank erosion on the MRGO due to ship 17 Q. No, I just want you to look at it and
18 wake, correct? 18 tell me, first of all, did I read it correctly?
19 MR. LIDDLE: 19 A. Yes, I think you read it correctly.
20 Objection. 20 Q. Okay. And so what they're talking
21 A. Well, the way I can remember, okay? 21 about is putting in this material, they're
22 Now, talking about crawfishing here, is that 22 talking about -- they're discussing the use of
23 the purposes of this test, okay, that was going 23 this articulating concrete mat to deal with --
24 to take place, or that we wanted to take place, 24 now, whether they it did or not I don't really
25 is a combination to have a disposal dike and 25 care right now, but in 2001 they're talking
Page 66 Page 68
17 (Pages 65 to 68)
BREERWOOD, GREGORY
7/10/2008
1 about trying to deal with bank erosion due to 1 MR. LAMBERT:

2 ship wake, right? 2 We'll get you to make a copy of
3 MR. LIDDLE: 3 that if you would. Can you do that,
4 Objection. 4 get somebody to do it during a break?
5 A. That's what it appears, yes. 5 MR. LIDDLE:
6 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 6 Yeah, we'll do it during a break.
7 Q. Okay. All right. Now, there's a 7 (Off the record.)
8 bunch of the same thing, and I don't think we 8 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
9 have to put them all in here. Okay. This one 9 Q. All right. Now you're welcome to look
10 we probably need. 10 at those again, but you notice the 1:2 slope.
11 Okay. Let's go back to this -- 11 A. That's correct. Yes, I do.
12 where's that memo one, the design memorandum? 12 Q. Okay. Now, we know from a practical
13 Have you ever seen the design 13 standpoint that there's no way the maintain a
14 memorandum Number 1? 14 precise angle of the slope in an operational
15 A. I don't think so. 15 channel with big ships going up and down,
16 Q. Okay. Maybe not. Another new 16 because of the erosion issues that you've just
17 experience. I bet you can't wait. 17 talked about. Correct?
18 A. For you or for me? 18 MR. LIDDLE:
19 Q. This is for you. This is Design 19 Objection.
20 Memorandum Number 1 written back while you were 20 A. Well, depending on the type of
21 in school and before, 1958. And it is the -- 21 material -- the navigation and how wide it is,
22 on several pages into the document there's a 22 you know, will determine how you can maintain
23 route selection and then there's channel design 23 that slope. Practically speaking, in the
24 criteria. And I'd like for you to look at the 24 dredging context, with the type of equipment
25 document, and particularly that page. 25 that we have, um -- it would -- you know, to
Page 69 Page 71
1 (Tendering.) 1 have an exact repose of 1:2 would be, in

2 (Exhibit 6 was marked for 2 reality, difficult.
3 identification and is attached hereto.) 3 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
4 A. Just the ones in orange, or would you 4 Q. Okay. Now, you could do something
5 like me to read the whole thing? 5 pretty close to that by using techniques that
6 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 6 the Corps is well familiar with, um -- I use
7 Q. Oh, it doesn't matter. The ones in 7 the broad term foreshoring. Correct?
8 orange are the ones I'm interested in asking 8 MR. LIDDLE:
9 you about. 9 Objection.
10 A. Okay. 10 A. Well, from my understanding, foreshore
11 Q. Okay? I'm not going to mark this, 11 protection is protecting the bankline. Okay?
12 because we've all got so many copies of it we 12 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
13 don't need anymore, but -- 13 Q. Uh-huh.
14 MR. LAMBERT: 14 A. That would not be necessarily what you
15 Unless you want me to. 15 would use to get that angle of repose --
16 MR. LIDDLE: 16 Q. Okay.
17 Your deposition. 17 A. -- that channel dimension.
18 MR. LAMBERT: 18 Q. Well, that's why you're the engineer
19 Okay. 19 and the head of the Corps of Engineers for a
20 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 20 long time, that you know about those things.
21 Q. Oh, I'm going to mark them Exhibit 6. 21 In other words, using whatever
22 Exhibit 6 is going to be just the first page of 22 technique the Corps has in its knowledge, there
23 this design memorandum and the page that has to 23 could be a maintenance of a 1:2 slope if the
24 do with the channel design criteria. So we're 24 Corps chose to do it that way, correct?
25 going to have a two-page -- 25 MR. LIDDLE:
Page 70 Page 72
18 (Pages 69 to 72)
BREERWOOD, GREGORY
7/10/2008
1 Objection. 1 Objection.
2 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 2 A. Well, you know, I guess that's, um --
3 Q. Forget funding and authorization right 3 that's a broad question. You know, here again,
4 now. I'm just saying -- I'm looking at the 4 our job was to maintain the channel, depth and
5 Mississippi River out here. You got a nice 5 width, for use in navigation.
6 little foreshore protection deal going on 6 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
7 there, and I know there are other waterways all 7 Q. Okay. So I'm right, you felt like
8 over the place where the Corps has maintained, 8 that was your mandate.
9 with jetties and so on, however they choose to 9 A. Our mandate --
10 do it, a channel. Correct. 10 MR. LIDDLE:
11 MR. LIDDLE: 11 Objection.
12 Objection. 12 A. -- is to maintain the channel, yes.
13 A. Well, there are features of every 13 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
14 channel that we use for the maintenance of the 14 Q. And the operations to do that were, in
15 channel. 15 this reach, cutter head dredging -- correct?
16 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 16 MR. LIDDLE:
17 Q. Okay. And if you want to, for 17 Objection.
18 example, on the north shore of the MRGO in 18 A. That was one. That was a type of
19 certain locations there's jetties that have 19 plant that was used, yes.
20 been built to hold dredge material and to 20 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
21 reduce erosion and so on, correct? 21 Q. Okay. And box cutting, correct?
24 A. In the reaches down here you're 24 A. Box cutting I don't know about this
25 talking about? 25 particular channel or anywhere else, okay?
Page 73 Page 75
1 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 1 This is a technical, um -- I guess design that

2 Q. Well, one reach is up there in the 2 was employed through our engineering division,
3 Lake Borgne area. 3 okay? We would go to the engineering division
4 A. This area here? 4 to provide with us the plans and specifications
5 Q. Yeah. 5 to maintain the channel. Okay? And this is
6 A. There was some protection placed in 6 one feature that they would use, one process
7 that area, yes. 7 that they would use, depending on what channel
8 Q. Yeah. But my question to you is, 8 you are in, to get the authorized dimensions.
9 isn't it true that the Corps has the technology 9 Now, I can't remember if the box cutting was
10 to do that, if it's authorized? 10 part of the MRGO or not, but that was a process
11 MR. LIDDLE: 11 that is employed depending on what channel
12 Objection. 12 you're maintaining.
13 A. The Corps has the technology to do 13 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
14 that and, you know, a wide variety of other 14 Q. Well, I could tell you it was --
15 things, here again, as you said, subject to 15 A. Okay.
16 what's authorized. 16 Q. -- because it's in the documents.
17 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 17 But -- so, but that was a -- that is a -- those
18 Q. That's right. And the way you read or 18 are basically operational decisions made in
19 read the authorization for this channel is that 19 order to comply with this channel maintenance
20 there's a non discretionary function of keeping 20 mandate or authorization, correct?
21 the channel open, 500 feet wide and 36 feet 21 MR. LIDDLE:
22 deep, regardless of what happens from an 22 Objection.
23 erosion standpoint due to the ship wake. 23 A. I didn't view that as an operational
24 Correct? 24 decision, it was an engineering/technical
25 MR. LIDDLE: 25 design to provide the channel dimensions.
Page 74 Page 76
19 (Pages 73 to 76)
BREERWOOD, GREGORY
7/10/2008
1 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 1 they're talking to the lawyer -- why

2 Q. Okay. This memorandum dated 2002 2 else would -- I mean, that's -- the
3 which I'm going to mark for identification as 3 lawyer is there to give legal advice.
4 Number 7, and I'm particularly interested in a 4 MR. LAMBERT:
5 page which shows you as a copied recipient from 5 No, I understand what you're
6 Russo again, and the particular language is -- 6 saying.
7 first of all, do you know who Gwen is? 7 MR. LIDDLE:
8 (Exhibit 7 was marked for 8 Let's take a five-minute break.
9 identification and is attached hereto.) 9 Is that all right?
10 A. Gwen Nachman? 10 MR. LAMBERT:
11 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 11 Sure.
12 Q. Yeah. I'll bet that's right. 12 (Off the record.)
13 A. This is just a supposition on my part, 13 MR. LAMBERT:
14 now. Okay? 14 We broke when I started reading
15 Q. All right. I think you're right. 15 from a document, which I think you've
16 Gwen Nachman, MVN. 16 had time to review.
17 A. Okay. Gwen Nachman was the chief 17 MR. LIDDLE:
18 counsel at one time in the New Orleans 18 Yeah, and for the record, we're
19 District. 19 going to exercise the claw back
20 Q. Okay. This is in reply to the 20 provision for two of the pages here
21 authorization part of your question. The 21 which are attorney/client privileged.
22 authorizing language of the MRGO states as a 22 And the Bates numbers are NED 187
23 performance measure that the CEO shall maintain 23 looks like 000000374 to 375.
24 a set of prescribed dimensions for navigation. 24 MR. LAMBERT:
25 It does not describe or limit the means by 25 How about 377 and 378?
Page 77 Page 79
1 which those dimensions should be maintained. 1 MR. LIDDLE:

2 Keith covered below why we are using this 2 You know what? Yeah, I gave the
3 particular alternative approach to traditional 3 wrong numbers. We're actually looking
4 dredging, which is to reduce O&M costs. 4 at --
5 MR. LIDDLE: 5 MR. KELLS:
6 Wait. I want to interrupt you 6 These don't have Bates numbers on
7 because I want to take a look at that 7 them. Is just Pages 1 and 2.
8 document before we read anymore. 8 MR. LIDDLE:
9 MR. LAMBERT: 9 Okay. So actually we're going to
10 We can do whatever you want, but 10 claw back NED 187000000377 and 378.
11 I'm going to put it in. (Tendering.) 11 MR. LAMBERT:
12 If you're thinking of 12 Right.
13 attorney/client privilege or some 13 MR. LIDDLE:
14 privilege based on that, I think 14 Thank you.
15 you'll find that there's a whole bunch 15 MR. LAMBERT:
16 of people copied on that that don't 16 Okay. To which we object for a
17 have anything to do with legal issues, 17 bunch of reasons which I'll state
18 and the discussion itself is with 18 later so we don't waste time.
19 regard to operational maintenance 19 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
20 issues. And it, I don't believe, will 20 Q. Let me ask you a couple of questions
21 fall within any sort of privilege, 21 about box dredging. Do you know why box
22 which is probably the reason why we 22 dredging was used in the MRGO?
23 have it. 23 A. No, I do not.
24 MR. LIDDLE: 24 Q. Do you know that box dredging is less
25 Well, I think just the fact that 25 expensive than dredging which would create a
Page 78 Page 80
20 (Pages 77 to 80)
BREERWOOD, GREGORY
7/10/2008
1 1:2 slope as defined in memo Number 1? 1 That's right.

2 A. I don't. I'm not aware of that. 2 MR. LIDDLE:
3 Q. You're not? 3 But -- yeah. I'd rather you not
4 A. No. 4 ask him any more questions based on
5 Q. Who is Mr. Gwen, or Gwendolyn -- is it 5 this communication, based on this --
6 Miss or Mrs.? Who's Gwendolyn Nachman? 6 you know? It's not for your eyes. It
7 A. Nachman. Gwendolyn Nachman is a Mrs. 7 was mistakenly put in front of you.
8 Q. Okay. 8 It's not just the witness being asked,
9 A. And she is the -- she was the office 9 but it's no longer for your eyes. And
10 of counsel for the chief at one point. 10 until and unless you can get a Court
11 MR. LIDDLE: 11 to order otherwise.
12 You can answer questions about 12 MR. LAMBERT:
13 her, just don't say anything about a 13 Are you finished?
14 privileged communication that you had 14 MR. LIDDLE:
15 with her. 15 For now, sure.
16 THE WITNESS: 16 MR. LAMBERT:
17 Okay. 17 Good.
19 Q. Who is EJR? And you can look at this. 19 Q. EJR is Edmond Russo, as best you know?
20 A. Yeah. If you don't mind. 20 Answer the question.
21 Q. I think that's Russo, huh? 21 A. Yes.
22 MR. LIDDLE: 22 Q. If somebody tells you not to, then
23 This is what I'm going to object 23 don't answer it. Okay?
24 to. That's the whole idea of the claw 24 A. Okay.
25 back is that this is privileged 25 Q. Meaning one of these guys. But if
Page 81 Page 83
1 communication. 1 they don't, answer my questions. Okay?

2 MR. LAMBERT: 2 A. Okay.
3 I understand. But I'm 3 MR. LIDDLE:
4 identifying some of the characters in 4 All right. I'm going to instruct
5 this so that when we get to the point 5 the witness not to answer these
6 where we argue about it we have a 6 questions at the very least until --
7 record. 7 I'm going to take a look at the claw
8 MR. LIDDLE: 8 back provision.
9 But again, the claw back 9 MR. LAMBERT:
10 provision is to protect the 10 Okay.
11 communication that you're now looking 11 MR. LIDDLE:
12 at, again, and asking questions based 12 But this would go a lot smoother
13 on that communication. Obviously, 13 if you could skip that and go on to
14 there's no way I can erase your 14 another set of questions, we'll come
15 memory, you've already seen this 15 back to that, and I'll make a decision
16 document, but I do have a problem with 16 whether or not I'm going to ask the
17 you continuing to question the 17 witness not to answer.
18 deponent based on a privileged 18 MR. LAMBERT:
19 communication. 19 Okay. Just for your, um -- for
20 MR. LAMBERT: 20 your health, okay? I'm not asking him
21 Then instruct him not to answer. 21 anything right now about this
22 MR. LIDDLE: 22 particular communication. I'm asking
23 Well, you're not asking him 23 him about things like initials and so
24 directly about a communication. 24 on which will help me identify who it
25 MR. LAMBERT: 25 is that I need to talk to if and when
Page 82 Page 84
21 (Pages 81 to 84)
BREERWOOD, GREGORY
7/10/2008
1 you actually try and exercise the claw 1 want to proceed.

2 back provision which I don't think is 2 MR. LAMBERT:
3 appropriate in this instance. So 3 Okay. That's fine. All I'm
4 unless I ask him about the specifics 4 asking right now is -- look, and I can
5 in the memo itself, I can ask him 5 use another page in here.
6 about those other things unless you 6 MR. LIDDLE:
7 tell him not to answer. And if you 7 If you want to use another page,
8 do, then you do that at your peril. I 8 that would make me a lot more
9 mean, that's the way -- 9 comfortable. My problem is you
10 MR. LIDDLE: 10 looking direct at privileged
11 You're going to go through and 11 communication and basing your
12 ask him about who those people are who 12 questions on that privileged
13 are on the E-mail chain? 13 communication. I do have an issue
14 MR. LAMBERT: 14 with that. So if you want to put that
15 Well, yeah, because you see, the 15 away -- I mean, literally, the claw
16 thing is is that every time you bring 16 back is a claw back. If you want to
17 a lawyer into the room all of the 17 give me those two pages -- I'm not
18 conversations aren't privileged. For 18 going to fight you for them either.
19 example, in this instance if we're 19 But if you want to give me those two
20 talking about saving money dredging in 20 pages, that's what a claw back is, and
21 a certain way and the person who's 21 then ask whatever questions you want
22 writing the memo is explaining this to 22 as long as you don't get into
23 a lawyer, then if the lawyer wants to 23 privileged communication. But you're
24 get involved in the economics of the 24 sitting there looking at the
25 operations of the Corps of Engineers, 25 privileged communication, basing every
Page 85 Page 87
1 then that's not privileged. In other 1 single answer -- every single question
2 words, privileged things -- 2 you ask you're basing it on that
3 MR. LIDDLE: 3 privileged communication.
4 Well, we can -- I disagree. We 4 MR. LAMBERT:
5 can have the discussion off the record 5 Counsel, I just don't know how
6 if you want about privilege law, but I 6 you can possibly think that the
7 don't think that that's -- you know, 7 definition of -- wherever it comes
8 what I'm trying to avoid here is you 8 from, the sky, the Gulf Intracoastal
9 asking questions based on what I think 9 Waterways -- I'm sorry, the Gulf
10 is a privileged communication. 10 Intracoastal Inland Waterways Project,
11 MR. LAMBERT: 11 which is obviously a project of the
12 Okay. 12 Corps of Engineers, how that can
13 MR. LIDDLE: 13 possibly be privileged. So -- I don't
14 And if you want to ask him who 14 want to interrupt -- I don't want you
15 those initials, who they are, and I 15 to --
16 think you've already asked him, 16 MR. KELLS:
17 then -- well, you've already done it. 17 Here's the protocol right here.
19 Q. What is the Gulf Intracoastal Inland 19 Let's take a five-minute break.
20 Waterways Project? 20 (Off the record.)
21 MR. LIDDLE: 21 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
22 Don't answer. Let's take a 22 Q. Okay. Do you know what the Gulf
23 break. Let's take a five-minute 23 Intracoastal Inland Project is?
24 break. I'm going to call back to my 24 MR. LIDDLE:
25 office in D.C. and find out how they 25 I'm going to object, but you can
Page 86 Page 88
22 (Pages 85 to 88)
BREERWOOD, GREGORY
7/10/2008
1 answer. 1 A. I have to tell you that, you know,

2 A. No, I'm -- 2 when I look at the authorization of the
3 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 3 channel, it's basically, you know, the bottom
4 Q. Okay. Those articulating concrete 4 dimensions and the width dimensions. Okay?
5 mats, ACMs that I've asked you about, do 5 The slope, like I said before, it depends on
6 those -- are those commonly used to control 6 the -- where you are, what channel it is, what
7 bank erosion from wave wash? 7 type of material there are and so forth. But,
8 MR. LIDDLE: 8 I do see here that it does say 1:2. Um --
9 Objection. 9 Q. Were you aware of that before today?
10 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 10 A. That it was 1:2?
11 Q. Go ahead and answer. 11 Q. Yes.
12 A. These typically are used in the 12 A. I can't remember. No, I don't -- I
13 Mississippi River for erosion. Okay? 13 don't remember that being part of the
14 Q. Okay. 14 authorizing document.
15 A. Now, the Mississippi River obviously 15 Q. All right. Now, in this document
16 has other forms of erosion than bank wash, and 16 which is a House of Representatives letter of
17 that's the natural -- 17 transmittal, there's some language which shows
18 Q. Flow? 18 some dimensions on the page, looks like the
19 A. -- flow of the river and so forth. 19 second page or third page, the yellowed part?
20 That's typically what it's used for is flow, in 20 A. So what would you like me to read,
21 those areas. 21 this here?
22 Q. Well, what's used typically for the 22 Q. Yeah. It doesn't -- I don't see a
23 type of wave wash that you know occurs in the 23 slope in there. That's the last page of it.
24 Mississippi River Gulf Outlet, which is what we 24 It's falling apart. You see the channel
25 talk about here? 25 description there?
Page 89 Page 91
1 MR. LIDDLE: 1 A. Should I read it? You want me to read

2 Objection. 2 it?
3 A. I don't know what's typical. Um -- 3 Q. Sure. Go ahead.
4 you know, what we've used there and elsewhere 4 A. It says, the seaway canal 36 feet deep
5 is rock, you know, broken rock, make dikes 5 and 500 feet wide extending 70 miles as a land
6 out -- not dikes, but -- in some cases dikes, 6 and water cut from the Michoud southeasterly to
7 but at least protective areas. 7 Lake Borgne and across Chandeleur Sound to the
8 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 8 38-foot contour in the Gulf of Mexico.
9 Q. Okay. Now, I showed you the channel 9 Q. Okay.
10 description in the Design Memo Number 1, that 10 A. Okay?
11 1958 document -- 11 Q. Now, that particular document doesn't
12 A. (Nods affirmatively.) 12 have a slope in it, at least in that paragraph,
13 Q. -- that way marked two pages of as 13 does it?
14 Exhibit Number 6. That one. (Tendering.) 14 A. Well, I don't see it in that
15 Remember? Came out of the thick one? 15 paragraph.
16 A. Yes. 16 Q. Okay. Now, this is, just for the
17 Q. All right. Did you or didn't you 17 record, it's dated September 25th, 1951. And
18 consider it part of the authorization to try 18 I'm not going to mark it. Let me ask you to
19 and maintain the 1:2 slope described in that 19 take a look at this public law, which is a 1968
20 memo? 20 document, 90-483, August 13th, 1968. The
21 MR. LIDDLE: 21 Rivers and Harbors Act. And particularly, I
22 Objection. 22 would like for you to look at Section 111,
23 A. In this memo here? 23 which is highlighted. (Tendering.) And if you
24 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 24 would, please, read that into the record.
25 Q. Uh-huh. 25 A. Okay. Section 111: The Secretary of
Page 90 Page 92
23 (Pages 89 to 92)
BREERWOOD, GREGORY
7/10/2008
1 the Army acting through the Chief of Engineers 1 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
2 is authorized to investigate, study and 2 Q. All right. Now, let me show you a
3 construct projects for the prevention or 3 document -- and before I get to the document,
4 mitigation of shore damages attributable to 4 let me just think through this for a minute.
5 federal navigation works. The cost of 5 We've got the MRGO, and it's an
6 installing, operating and maintaining such 6 authorized channel width for shipping that's a
7 projects shall be borne entirely by the United 7 certain depth, 40 feet by 36 feet, 500 feet
8 States. No such project shall be constructed 8 wide, and that's a pathway so that ships can go
9 without specific authorization by Congress if 9 through it. We know that. Right?
10 the estimated first cost exceeds $1 million. 10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay. I'm going to mark this for 11 MR. LIDDLE:
12 identification as Exhibit Number 8. 12 Objection.
13 Now, would you agree with me that the 13 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
14 erosion that we're talking about fits within 14 Q. We've looked at some documentation
15 this definition; in other words, to prevent -- 15 here that gives the Corps the authorization to
16 it says, the prevention or mitigation of shore 16 maintain that channel. True?
17 damage attributable the federal navigational 17 A. Correct.
18 works? 18 Q. There's no discretion involved with
19 (Exhibit 8 was marked for 19 that, no interpretation, it's just keep that
20 identification and is attached hereto.) 20 channel open for shipping, correct?
22 Objection, if that's a question. 22 Objection.
23 A. This is a case where I would 23 A. Correct.
24 specifically go to our Office of Counsel to try 24 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
25 to determine, you know, where this applies and 25 Q. And that's the way you understood your
Page 93 Page 95
1 how it applies. 1 job as the head civilian at the Corps of

2 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 2 Engineers, correct?
3 Q. Okay. Well, before you got to the 3 A. Yes.
4 lawyer to ask him how it applies and where it 4 Q. Okay. Now, with regard to the erosion
5 applies, do you agree with me that the language 5 issue that we have spent a time talking about,
6 provision or mitigation of shore damages 6 it seems clear to me that the Corps was aware
7 attributable to federal navigational works 7 of it. True?
8 would apply along the MRGO? 8 MR. LIDDLE:
10 Objection. 10 A. The Corps was aware that the banks
11 A. Here again, I would read that whole 11 were eroding?
12 document before I could answer your question. 12 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
13 Really. I mean, it is just that lill small 13 Q. Yes.
14 paragraph -- 14 A. Yes.
15 Q. I understand. 15 Q. The Corps studied the issue of
16 A. -- and it was before I was even 16 mitigation or prevention, however you want to
17 employed by the Corps. 17 put it, whatever word you'd like to use, the
18 Q. I understand. 18 banks from eroding, correct?
19 Well, would you agree with me that 19 MR. LIDDLE:
20 wave wash along the MRGO causes damage to the 20 Objection.
21 banks? 21 A. I don't know if we had a specific
22 MR. LIDDLE: 22 study for that as far as preventing the banks
23 Objection. 23 from erosion. I know, like I said before,
24 A. I would say wave wash erodes some of 24 there was some testing mechanisms, um -- for
25 the banks, yes. 25 bank protection as the ACMs that were being
Page 94 Page 96
24 (Pages 93 to 96)
BREERWOOD, GREGORY
7/10/2008
1 contemplated, and I think some were installed 1 A. -- as we thought was part of our
2 to stop some erosion at the same time as to 2 mandate, as well. So, you know, we would look
3 have a dike for disposal. 3 at, you know, different methods of dredging,
4 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 4 different disposal methods and so forth. Okay?
5 Q. Okay. And in fact, at the area where 5 To see if, you know, whatever cost it was, and
6 Lake Borgne sort of kind of broke into the 6 whatever we could maintain the channel, same
7 MRGO, yes, where you're indicating on the map, 7 dimensions, okay, at least cost was always one
8 there was some structures built in that area to 8 of our goals.
9 reduce the erosion. True? 9 Q. Okay.
10 A. There was some structures in that 10 A. And that's what we attempted to do.
11 area -- 11 Now, whether that was different disposal
12 MR. LIDDLE: 12 method, a different dredging piece of equipment
13 Objection. 13 or whatever, you know, there was always those
14 A. -- built. Okay? Um -- it was a 14 things that were looked at.
15 combination of having the influence of the -- 15 Q. Okay. Now, in these documents
16 of Lake Borgne coming into the channel as the 16 someplace, and I can dig it out for you if you
17 ships were going through, you know, and having 17 want, there's discussions about, um --
18 that side more or less flow of Lake Borgne, as 18 depositing materials in a form of a stable,
19 well as, you know, protecting the bankline So 19 um -- what do they call that -- it's a -- hold
20 it was a combination. 20 on one second -- a stable berm under the water,
21 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 21 and there was actually projects done to do
22 Q. Okay. And part of the justification, 22 that. One of them that I think you are aware
23 if we went into these documents all at length, 23 of is around Mobile Bay. And then the other is
24 it seems to always be an issue as to whether or 24 the placement of sand at the bottom, expecting
25 not the project is economically justifiable 25 for it to migrate, um -- towards a beach or
Page 97 Page 99
1 based on the reduced cost of dredging 1 towards a barrier island or whatever.

2 associated with the structure. Correct? 2 Are you familiar with those concepts?
5 A. Okay. Um -- 5 A. I'm not familiar with the one in
6 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 6 Mobile, and although -- you know, we don't have
7 Q. Do it again? 7 projects like that. I'm aware that there are
8 A. If you wouldn't mind. 8 certain, um -- projects throughout the country,
9 Q. Don't mind. 9 and I think in Florida, where the beach is
10 Part of the discussion as to whether 10 nourished by pumping sand in from offshore.
11 or not a project is feasible from the 11 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
12 operations and management standpoint of the 12 Q. Well, these are dredging techniques
13 Corps is whether or not it is economically 13 and disposal techniques that are common
14 justifiable because the project will reduce the 14 knowledge in the industry, correct?
15 dredging requirements and, therefore, save 15 MR. LIDDLE:
16 costs. And that helps in terms of justifying 16 Objection.
17 the project. 17 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
18 MR. LIDDLE: 18 Q. The dredging industry.
19 Objection. 19 A. I would say that beach nourishment
20 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 20 is -- and the methods of beach nourishment in
21 Q. True? 21 the dredging industry for the most part is
22 A. Well, in any project we are always 22 common knowledge, yes.
23 attempting to spend the least amount of 23 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
24 money -- 24 Q. Okay. Exhibit Number 9 shows Dredging
25 Q. Uh-huh. 25 Research Technical Notes. It's dated back in
Page 98 Page 100
25 (Pages 97 to 100)
BREERWOOD, GREGORY
7/10/2008
1 January of 1993. Let's see. So back in 1993 1 next O is, but the next N is navigation.
2 what was your position with the Corps? 2 Q. ON?
3 (Exhibit 9 was marked for 3 A. It was ON. The last two letters are
4 identification and is attached hereto.) 4 ON. Um -- N is for navigation. The O I'm not
5 A. Okay. I think I was chief of the 5 sure.
6 navigation section. 6 Q. Okay. All right. Now, in this
7 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 7 document there's a reference to two -- or two
8 Q. Did that have to do with dredging? 8 field demonstration experiments. And I'm going
9 A. Okay. That was at a time when the 9 to read them to you. And one is monitoring
10 Corps changed its organization to projects 10 long-term wave and bottom current conditions at
11 based, all right? And the project managers 11 Sand Island Berms, Alabama, and this is in '87
12 then became the, um -- the main point of 12 through '90. The other one is entitled
13 contact and the one responsible for the overall 13 Long-term Directional Wave Measurements at
14 projects, not just dredging but anything else. 14 National Berm Demonstration Projects, Mobile,
15 Okay? And I'm just telling you that -- 15 Alabama. And there's a fellow named Edward
16 Q. No, it's helpful. 16 hands, and that's '88 through '90.
17 A. -- to know that the navigation 17 Do you know this fellow Ed Hands?
18 section, okay, I was not supervisor over any of 18 Edward Hands?
19 those project managers, or had no authority, 19 A. How do you spell the last name?
20 okay, but my job was to coordinate any 20 Q. H-A-N-D-S. (Tendering.)
21 navigation business, so to speak, okay, to make 21 A. No, I guess I don't recall who Ed
22 sure that it was consistent with other, you 22 Hands is -- was.
23 know, project managers. If, you know, they 23 Q. Are you familiar with the concept of
24 needed some funding or if -- it was just more 24 structures, be they berms or weirs or
25 or less coordination. But as far as the 25 breakwaters, below the surface of the water
Page 101 Page 103
1 details of the project themselves, the 1 having an effect on wave action?

2 operation and maintenance of the project, that, 2 MR. LIDDLE:
3 at that time, and still is, is the, um -- under 3 Objection.
4 the purview of the project manager. 4 A. Having effect on -- you know, when you
5 Q. Okay. And that's operational 5 say wave action you mean in reference to ships
6 decisions under the purview of the operations 6 traffic or in wave action as reference to the
7 manager. 7 current of the river?
8 A. The operations manager, yes. 8 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
9 Q. Okay. This Exhibit Number 9 is the 9 Q. Or surge.
10 Dredging Research Technical Notes. It's -- it 10 A. Or surge. Okay.
11 came off the Internet. And it's in a table 11 Q. Right.
12 here in the back Dredging Research Program Key 12 A. I'm familiar with underground --
13 Personnel, and it's got you as part of the 13 underwater structures being developed and
14 field review committee. (Tendering.) 14 implemented in the Mississippi River to help
15 A. Okay. 15 train the river to where it would scour out or
16 Q. And there are some initials behind 16 at least maintain itself to some degree.
17 your name. What are those? 17 Q. Well, you're familiar with the concept
18 A. Okay. That's the New Orleans 18 of offshore berms affecting wave height, aren't
19 District. It's -- okay. I'm going to read the 19 you?
20 acronym and then I'm going to read the -- 20 MR. LIDDLE:
21 Q. Okay. 21 Objection.
22 A. It's CELMN-OD-ON. Okay. That's Corps 22 A. Well, it depends on where -- how high
23 of Engineers, the Lower Mississippi Valley, New 23 the berm is. Is it underwater berms or -- you
24 Orleans District, which is the N. OD is 24 know, you have berms out here in the
25 operations division. I'm not too sure what the 25 Mississippi River, but that's just the natural
Page 102 Page 104
26 (Pages 101 to 104)

BREERWOOD, GREGORY
7/10/2008
1 progression of the river. 1 A. I'm trying to see the context of,

2 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 2 first of all, my participation and then also
3 Q. Uh-huh. I'm talking about the effect 3 what it was about.
4 of an underwater structure, properly placed, I 4 Okay. Thank you.
5 mean, parallel, for example, to a beach, 5 Q. Uh-huh. Do you know of any studies
6 breaking waves that are on the way to the 6 done regarding the surge or waves, or wave
7 beach. 7 propagation -- let me do all three, and then
8 A. I'm familiar with, as you just 8 you can tell me if there is any one of those:
9 described, some parallel structures that would, 9 Surge, wave propagation, wave impact, surge
10 you know, control the, um -- the wave breaking 10 impact, anything like that, done in connection
11 on the beach in that area, yes, I am. 11 with what has been commonly referred to as the
12 Q. Okay. So you know, for example, if 12 funnel, meaning the convergence of the MRGO and
13 you have -- you ever been to Destin, Florida? 13 the Intracoastal waterway as they go from Reach
14 A. Yes. 14 2 into Reach 1?
15 Q. Okay. You know there's a twelve foot 15 MR. LIDDLE:
16 deep sandbar that's a few hundred yards off the 16 Objection.
17 beach where the waves break and then the waves 17 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
18 come into the beach? You've seen that? 18 Q. You yourself.
19 A. No, I guess I haven't. That 19 A. Well, I think after Katrina we --
20 particular -- 20 Q. Let me stop that. I'm not interested
21 Q. That concept you're familiar with. 21 in after Katrina right now. Pre-Katrina.
22 A. That concept? 22 A. I don't recall of any specific study
23 MR. LIDDLE: 23 that looked at what is referred to, as you say,
24 Objection. 24 the funnel effect --
25 A. Um -- I'm not familiar with, you know, 25 Q. Okay.
Page 105 Page 107
1 Destin and doing that. Um -- you're speaking 1 A. -- surge or, you know-- there may have
2 of a sandbar, let's say, some distance from the 2 been, but I can't recall it.
3 coast? 3 Q. Do you remember historically seeing
4 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 4 any proposed structures where the, um -- where
5 Q. Well, I'm talking about, um -- a 5 the current, um -- Shaw project structure is
6 hundred yards, a football field length. 6 designed to, um -- be built across the, I
7 A. Well, any coastal area you're going to 7 guess --
8 have, you know, variation of sand bars that 8 A. This area somewhere?
9 parallel the beach. 9 Q. Yeah. It's actually -- as I
10 Q. And the sand bars cause waves to 10 understand it, it's across this area.
11 break, correct? 11 (Indicating.)
12 MR. LIDDLE: 12 A. All right.
13 Objection. 13 Q. Do you remember any historic studies
14 A. I would think so, yes. 14 or documents having to do with that -- with a
15 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 15 structure proposed across there?
16 Q. Okay. All right. Just looking for 16 MR. LIDDLE:
17 concepts here. 17 Objection.
18 A. I understand. Is it okay if I just 18 A. Um -- this is before Katrina?
19 look at this to see when -- 19 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
20 Q. Absolutely. Sure. 20 Q. Yeah.
21 A. -- and who else was involved to kind 21 A. Prior to Katrina, I don't recall any
22 of jog my memory here? 22 particular studies that were looking at, you
23 Q. Sure. I'll stop asking you questions 23 know, a structure in that area.
24 so you can look at that. And you tell me when 24 Q. Let me ask you to take a look at this
25 you're ready. 25 document. (Tendering.)
Page 106 Page 108
27 (Pages 105 to 108)

BREERWOOD, GREGORY
7/10/2008
1 (Exhibit 10 was marked for 1 Q. Yeah. During your time.

2 identification and is attached hereto.) 2 And I think you've told me that the
3 A. Okay, and I'm looking at -- what's the 3 wetland erosion on the banks of the MRGO is, in
4 date on this one? Can you -- 4 your experience, primarily -- there are some
5 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 5 other factors, but primarily caused by wave
6 Q. 1967. 6 wash from deep draft vessels, correct?
7 A. Okay. 7 MR. LIDDLE:
8 Q. And if I have a magnifying glass I can 8 Objection.
9 give it to you and you'll probably be able to 9 A. Well, here again, you're saying
10 read it. 10 primary. I mean, that's a big factor. But as
11 A. And so what is the question? Do I -- 11 far as, you know, primarily, you know, there's
12 Q. You see that structure? 12 other factors involved as well.
13 A. The floating gate? It says floating 13 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
14 gate on here. Um -- I don't recall anything 14 Q. Okay. Well, let's just leave that --
15 associated with this floating gate. 15 let's leave that up to somebody else to decide
16 Q. Okay. You might be able to see the 16 whether these documents that talk about six
17 date down there on the bottom. (Tendering.) 17 foot wakes three times a day and the attempts
18 A. Yes. This is February of 1967. 18 to determine how to control the wakes or wave
19 Q. All right. I'm not talking about the 19 wash is primary or not. Okay? It is a factor,
20 floating gate. I'm talking about this whole 20 no question.
21 structure right across the funnel. 21 A. I would say there's no question that
22 A. I don't -- I don't recall this 22 it is a factor.
23 particular one prior to Katrina. We may have 23 Q. Okay. And, um -- the disposal of
24 looked at it -- I don't recall that. Obviously 24 dredged materials is known to be an -- let's
25 after Katrina, you know, all of this area and 25 back up again -- beneficial use of dredge
Page 109 Page 111
1 different alternatives, um -- you know, were 1 materials, um -- is a concept that the Corps
2 looked at and are still being looked at. 2 employs to put dredged spoil in places where it
3 Q. Well, that has the Seabrook -- it has 3 can be of help, correct?
4 a reference over here to Seabrook lock. You 4 MR. LIDDLE:
5 see that? 5 Objection.
6 A. I see that it says Seabrook lock. 6 A. Beneficial uses, yes, of dredge
7 Q. Okay. Now, '67 you weren't yet even 7 material.
8 graduated -- 8 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
9 A. From college. 9 Q. Okay. Now, the banks as they erode,
10 Q. Yeah, right. 10 and it's clear in here that we knew that they
11 Now, going back for a minute to this 11 were 1:3, 1:4, 1:5 -- right?
12 general concept of the erosion. So we know 12 MR. LIDDLE:
13 that the authorization is to keep the channel 13 Objection.
14 open, correct? 14 A. Well, I don't -- you know, I don't
15 MR. LIDDLE: 15 have that in front of me, but -- you know.
17 A. Yes. 17 Q. I read it to you. You read it
18 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 18 yourself.
19 Q. And we know that -- 19 A. Well, that's what Edmond Russo said.
20 A. Well, let me back up. You know, right 20 Q. Okay. What Russo says. And he worked
21 now, obviously the authorization is to close 21 for you, right?
22 the channel. But prior to the recent 22 A. At one time, yes.
23 authorization, my time more or less, yes, it 23 Q. And you have no reason to disbelieve
24 was. 24 him, do you?
25 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 25 A. Well, you know, I don't think anybody
Page 110 Page 112
28 (Pages 109 to 112)

BREERWOOD, GREGORY
7/10/2008
1 in the Corps is going to give cause to 1 you know, as far as, you know, how it is now,
2 disbelieve, you know, but as far as what you 2 that has culminated down through the years.
3 wrote, you know, I'd have to look at it in the 3 Okay? So I guess I don't know -- what is the
4 context of what he wrote and -- you know. 4 exact -- what is it exactly that you would like
5 Q. You've been out there. 5 to know?
6 A. At the MRGO? 6 Q. Well, if we look at the 1:2 slope as
7 Q. Yeah. 7 being something that was part of the design
8 A. Yes, I have. 8 criteria, which is right here in Exhibit Number
9 Q. And you know that in some places it's 9 I think it's 6, if you'd just use that design
10 2500 feet wide. 10 criteria, the original design was to be
11 MR. LIDDLE: 11 660 feet wide at the top if it's 40 feet deep.
12 Objection. 12 True?
13 A. I don't know how wide it is, but it 13 MR. LIDDLE:
14 has widened out considerably, yes. 14 Objection.
15 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 15 A. Those numbers match, yes.
16 Q. It's in some places over two thousand 16 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
17 feet wide, isn't it? In the land cut. 17 Q. Okay. And so if it got a little bit
18 A. Um -- I don't know, but it's quite 18 wider, if it was a little bit less, plus or
19 wide. The exact number I'm not right now aware 19 minus, um -- I understand that's not your
20 of, but it's quite wide. 20 concern. But I take it that you're telling me
21 Q. You remember the birthday cake? 21 that it could get to be 2000 feet wide or
22 A. Yes. 22 2500 feet wide at the top and you did not feel
23 Q. Okay. You know that it's wide. 23 like, as the head civilian in the Corps of
24 A. Yes, sir. I do. 24 Engineers, that that was a problem.
Page 113 Page 115
2 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 2 A. Well, as you say, the head civilian,
3 Q. And if you do a 2:1 slope at 40 feet 3 that was when I was the DPM, which is a
4 deep, if we just do it in our own heads, 2:1 4 different --
5 would be, at 40 feet deep, 80 feet, right? Or 5 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
6 1:2? 6 Q. That's what we're doing right now.
7 A. It's a 1:2? 40 is 80, that's correct. 7 A. Okay. Um -- my involvement and my
8 Q. Right. And if you had 80 on each side 8 participation and my position when I was DPM
9 of 500, what you got? 9 was the whole district. And after Katrina --
10 A. Well, you got a 160 plus the 500, 10 Q. Was the what?
11 which would be 660. 11 A. -- was the whole district. Okay?
12 Q. Okay. If I tell you that in 12 Q. Okay.
13 memorandum, without me digging through it right 13 A. But my involvement was principally the
14 now, we've got 2500-foot widths, you can do the 14 recovery from Hurricane Katrina.
15 math on that pretty easily, that's more than 15 Q. Okay. Let's go, then, back before
16 three times it's original design width based on 16 then.
17 Exhibit Number 6, which is that design 17 A. Okay.
18 memorandum I showed you. Correct? 18 Q. When you were operations manager or
19 MR. LIDDLE: 19 chief --
20 Objection. 20 A. Operations chief.
21 A. Okay. Well, when you say widths, 21 Q. -- chief --
22 you're talking about -- the authorized channel 22 A. Okay.
23 is the bottom width, which is what we look at. 23 Q. Okay -- MRGO was part of your -- under
24 Q. Right. 24 Russo. You and then Russo and MRGO.
25 A. Okay? So when you're talking about, 25 A. That's correct.
Page 114 Page 116
29 (Pages 113 to 116)

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7/10/2008
1 Q. Back in that time frame, you did not 1 can we ask Congress for a specific
2 consider the widening of the MRGO -- and let me 2 authorization based on this Rivers and Harbors
3 get this language correct -- the widening of 3 Act to prevent these banks from eroding anymore
4 the MRGO, you did not consider that to be 4 along the MRGO?
5 something that was within your authorization to 5 A. I don't recall that.
6 effect, correct? 6 MR. LIDDLE:
9 A. I didn't think it was within our 9 Q. Okay. And you do agree with me that
10 authorization to. 10 the, just for the record, that the MRGO is a
11 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 11 federal navigational works, correct?
12 Q. Okay. All right. Did you ever check 12 MR. LIDDLE:
13 with anybody to find out if the Rivers and 13 Objection.
14 Harbors Act language that I just asked you to 14 A. It's a federal navigation project.
15 look at -- and you said you'd check with 15 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
16 somebody, to see if it was appropriate to have 16 Q. Okay. It's not a flood control
17 the U.S. be responsible for the bank 17 project, is it?
18 protection. Remember that? 18 A. No.
19 A. Well, I remember reading -- 19 MR. LIDDLE:
22 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 22 Q. It's a navigational project; correct?
23 Q. Section 111, yeah. 23 A. That's correct.
24 A. That's correct. Now as far as me 24 Q. Okay. Now, I'm going to take you to
25 going back and, at the time -- I would have 25 your Master's degree in general engineering.
Page 117 Page 119
1 asked at the time the, um -- opinion of counsel 1 A. Okay.

2 on that language, what it meant and how it 2 Q. Have you ever heard of a fetch?
3 would affect us. 3 A. Yes.
4 Q. But as you recall, at no time when you 4 Q. A fetch, apparently -- and I just
5 were operations chief did you focus on the 5 listened -- is the distance within which a wave
6 language, "The Secretary of the Army acting 6 has to get rolling; a fetch.
7 through the chief engineer -- chief of 7 MR. LIDDLE:
8 engineers is authorized to investigate, study 8 Objection, if that's a question.
9 and construct projects for the prevention or 9 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
10 mitigation of shore damages attributable to 10 Q. Is that generally what you understand?
11 federal navigational works, the cost of 11 MR. LIDDLE:
12 installing, operating and maintaining such 12 Objection.
13 projects shall be borne entirely by the United 13 A. Well, you know, a fetch -- I don't
14 States. No such projects shall be constructed 14 know the actual definition of a fetch, but it's
15 without specific authorizations of Congress if 15 associated with, as you say, wave actions and
16 the estimated first cost exceeds a million 16 vessels and so forth.
17 dollars." 17 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
18 You don't recall being familiar with 18 Q. Okay. Well, you're not a hydrologist.
19 that language, fair? 19 A. No.
20 MR. LIDDLE: 20 Q. But you're the boss in terms of the
21 Objection. 21 chief -- the chief of operations in the MRGO.
22 A. I did not. 22 A. I was the chief of operations.
24 Q. Okay. And therefore, you don't 24 Objection.
25 clearly recall having gone to anybody and said, 25 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
Page 118 Page 120
30 (Pages 117 to 120)

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7/10/2008
1 Q. Okay. Now, with your master's degree 1 width, with no barrier or foreshore protection
2 in engineering and your general understanding 2 or anything going on along here on the
3 of dredging which you've had over experience -- 3 northeast side --
4 a number of years of experience with the Corps 4 A. Okay.
5 of Engineers, did you understand or believe -- 5 Q. Okay. So we're not talking about this
6 forget authorizations right now, I'm just 6 area right here where there's a break -- do you
7 asking you what you know -- that if you got a 7 agree with me that triple the width is going to
8 half a mile of water that a wave can get going 8 give waves an opportunity to propagate more
9 in that more than it can in 660 feet? 9 than the 600 feet originally designed?
12 A. Okay. 12 MR. LAMBERT:
13 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 13 Sure.
14 Q. Tell me yes or no, and then give me 14 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
15 all the stuff. 15 Q. Go ahead and answer.
16 MR. LIDDLE: 16 A. Now you're speaking of wind coming
17 If you can answer the question. 17 from this direction.
18 A. I don't remember whether I should be 18 Q. Waves coming from that direction.
19 saying yes or no. I can tell you what I think 19 A. No barriers and so forth. I mean --
20 it is. 20 Q. No barrier on the north side.
21 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 21 A. What's that?
22 Q. Okay. 22 Q. No barrier on the north side?
23 A. Basically, it depends on the bottom 23 A. I understand. I understand. Um --
24 contours when it goes up, how far it goes out, 24 it's a simplistic question, but it really
25 as far as, like you say, in some cases an 25 depends on how high the wind is, you know, the
Page 121 Page 123
1 underwater berm or an underwater -- it really 1 direction it's coming from -- all right?
2 depends on that. 2 Q. No, listen, I'm not asking all that.
3 Q. A lot of things. 3 I gave you the direction. It's perpendicular
4 A. A lot of things rather than just from 4 to that channel. And the -- and the point is
5 bank to bank. For example, you know, your bank 5 that there is a channel which is now three
6 to bank can be a certain width, but then it 6 times as wide as it was originally designed,
7 could be just two feet maybe and then it comes 7 and the wave -- and that's what I call a fetch,
8 out and it's a shallow, shallow berm. Some of 8 okay? Just so the record is clear.
9 them are deeper berms. So it really depends. 9 A. Okay.
10 Now, you're talking about going back, looking 10 Q. -- then the wave has three times as
11 from my -- you know, my education and so forth, 11 much area to get going. Now, I've heard all
12 it really depends on other factors or a lot of 12 kinds of stuff, too, and, you know, I'm going
13 different factors. 13 to go back and do this question again. I mean,
14 Q. Okay. Let's take one that's got a 5 14 because I understand that when the slope gets
15 or 6:1 -- 5:1 slope, at a 40-foot depth, versus 15 beyond 45 degrees that the gentle slope can
16 1:2 slope and a 40-foot depth. Those are the 16 propagate higher waves. I mean, I'm sure there
17 two examples. Do you agree with me -- just 17 are formulas for all this. But just -- I'm
18 forget dikes and berms and everything right 18 just giving you a hypothet. Okay? So let's
19 now -- that if you had a direction -- and I'm 19 start the question again. So you have a
20 going to use this channel alignment map. If 20 hypothet.
21 you got a wind direction and wave action like 21 Hypothetically -- and I know you're
22 this, coming like this -- 22 not an expert, so he's going to object, you're
23 A. Okay. 23 going to answer the question anyway -- but
24 Q. -- perpendicular to the MRGO, do you 24 hypothetically, as the operations chief of the
25 agree that in an area where there is 2500 feet 25 Corps, hypothetically, if you have a channel
Page 122 Page 124
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1 that is 36 feet deep with a 1:2 side slope, and 1 A. I'd have to go out and take a look
2 the top width is 660 feet versus a channel 2 again. I'm sorry.
3 which is 40 feet deep, 500 feet wide at the 3 Q. Look, we'll do it this way: Assume
4 bottom and a top width of 2000 feet, if you got 4 that back when you were operations manager
5 a wind and waves coming across the top of it, 5 y'all -- back in -- well, maybe not. This was
6 don't you agree with me -- and I'm not asking 6 in the eighties.
7 you to quantify it -- that it makes sense that 7 Where were you in the eighties?
8 the waves will be bigger with the channel 8 A. In the eighties, I was a combination
9 that's three times as wide with twice the 9 of from dredging and then navigation section.
10 volume of water in it than the waves would be 10 Q. Back in the eighties, as I understand
11 across the 660-foot channel? That's the 11 it, this is when they put those rocks on along
12 question. 12 this side here.
13 MR. LIDDLE: 13 A. Okay.
14 Objection. 14 Q. Okay? And they talked about it ever
15 A. Okay. I think that in any channel, in 15 since after Betsy. '65, they talked about it
16 any open area where you have water and you have 16 for fifteen years and then put some rocks along
17 wind, the longer the reach you have for the 17 here. Okay?
18 wind to blow on the water, okay, will build up 18 A. Okay.
19 the waves, or the tides or whatever you want to 19 Q. Now, if you had a -- something along
20 call it, on the other side. 20 the north side -- and I don't want to get
21 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 21 technical right now. I don't want to -- I
22 Q. Okay. Good. Now, do you agree with 22 don't care whether it's a foreshore protection
23 me that if there was a -- 23 in the form of rocks or whether it's a dike or
24 A. Here again, I'm not an expert. You 24 whether it's -- whatever it is. Mats,
25 asked me -- 25 whatever. Just something that control the
Page 125 Page 127
1 Q. Wait. 1 erosion, and would be somewhere around the

2 A. -- my opinion. 2 surface or above during still water, do you
3 Q. You don't have to qualify it any 3 agree with me that if that existed, if the wave
4 further than you did. You're okay. This is 4 was coming across, perpendicular to the
5 fine. I just want to know what you know. 5 channel, that that would help break the wave?
6 If you had some foreshore protection 6 MR. LIDDLE:
7 along the north shore adjacent to the 7 Objection.
8 St. Bernard levee -- you know the section I'm 8 A. Well, we spoke about waves and then we
9 talking about. Reach 2. 9 spoke about wind. Okay? You're saying waves.
10 A. You're talking about the south side. 10 And prior to -- in the last question, my answer
11 Q. Yeah. Let me just make it clear. If 11 was predicated on the wind blowing.
12 you had some foreshore protection along here -- 12 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
13 A. That's the north side. 13 Q. Okay. Winds and waves.
14 Q. -- the north side -- now, you know 14 A. Okay.
15 there's foreshore protection on the south side, 15 Q. It's not going to break the wind.
16 right? You don't know that? 16 Okay?
17 A. I guess -- I know there's some reaches 17 A. Well, this is -- okay.
18 that we did something there to protect the 18 Q. Okay. So all --
19 dikes and so forth, yes. 19 MR. LIDDLE:
20 Q. Right. Right along this area that I'm 20 Objection.
21 pointing to here where the dikes are. 21 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
22 MR. LIDDLE: 22 Q. So all we're really talking about is
23 Objection. 23 wave action right now. So all I'm asking you
24 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 24 is, and it's not a tough one, I don't think.
25 Q. Right? 25 A. Well, this is why I wanted to clarify
Page 126 Page 128
32 (Pages 125 to 128)

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1 the, um -- 1 A. -- some type of influence from that

2 Q. I understand. If there's a dike along 2 open area.
3 here, and in still water it's either sticking 3 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
4 up a little bit or a lot, depending on the 4 Q. Which would be waves?
5 tide -- when I say a little bit, not -- you 5 A. And wind.
6 know, kind of like the way that the jetties are 6 Q. And wind.
7 built down here. (Indicating.) 7 MR. LIDDLE:
8 A. In the lower reaches. 8 Objection.
9 Q. You're familiar with that. 9 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
10 A. Yeah. I'm familiar with those. 10 Q. All right. So that was the purpose of
11 MR. LIDDLE: 11 putting that stuff there on the Lake Borgne
12 Objection. 12 side, right?
14 Q. Yeah. Kind of like that. 14 Objection.
15 If you got that, it tends to break the 15 A. That was part of the purpose, I think.
16 wave action that comes across it, correct? 16 It was also -- I think we did have some
17 MR. LIDDLE: 17 beneficial use of dredge material in that area,
18 Objection. 18 as well.
20 Q. Go ahead and answer it. 20 Q. To rebuild the marsh.
21 A. I would say that, you know, no matter 21 A. To keep the material, you know, in
22 where you put, either a dike or rocks or dirt, 22 that area that we were trying to benefit.
23 whatever the case, whether it's a disposal 23 Q. Okay. And as a demonstration of
24 dike, it's going to affect any wave coming into 24 that -- as a demonstration of that, just
25 that area. 25 visually, with this aerial photograph, you can
Page 129 Page 131
1 Q. Right. And that's it's purpose. I 1 see how this channel is maintained with this,
2 mean, for example, if we take a look at these 2 um -- jetty down here in the 20s, correct?
3 jetties down here in the sound and down in this 3 MR. LIDDLE:
4 reach which is around the 30s, um -- and up 4 Objection.
5 here in the area where Lake Borgne was breaking 5 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
6 into the MRGO -- or the MRGO more likely was 6 Q. Go ahead and answer it.
7 break into Lake Borgne, but anyway, in that 7 A. Well, here again, we're getting into
8 area, the purpose of those jetties was to 8 areas that, um -- you know, it was the design,
9 prevent erosion in that area. Correct? 9 you know, as far as the hydraulics folks are
10 MR. LIDDLE: 10 concerned, um -- and our contracts, to make
11 Objection. 11 sure our contracts were, you know, the best
12 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 12 kind of contracts. You know, I'm getting into
13 Q. Or shoaling, however you want to call 13 an area now where I'm not -- I don't think I'm
14 it? 14 the expert.
15 A. Shoaling was also to protect it from 15 Q. And I don't want -- I'm not asking you
16 the waves and the wind from entering the MRGO 16 expert questions. You just know -- see, we
17 from an open water breach, so to speak. 17 lawyers have to try and understand complicated
18 Q. Right. For navigational purposes. 18 concepts, and you help us do that not as an
19 A. That's correct. 19 expert but in this case you're the operations
20 Q. Okay. So you don't have a container 20 manager of the Corps of Engineers. You're
21 vessel coming by here doing 10 knots and all of 21 running this project. All right? And this
22 a sudden it encounters the cross wave action -- 22 is -- I can look at this and I can see that
23 A. Some type of -- 23 this is blue, which means there's a lot of
24 MR. LIDDLE: 24 water here, and I can see this lighter color
25 Objection. 25 out here just from the photograph and I know
Page 130 Page 132
33 (Pages 129 to 132)

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1 that's probably shoaling and some other 1 know, I guess if this came up I'm sure it's one
2 features maybe underwater. 2 of them that I gave.
3 A. Well, it may be. 3 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
4 MR. LIDDLE: 4 Q. Okay. Um -- and it came to us on a
5 Objection. 5 disk which I'm going to --
6 A. Just -- it may be. 6 A. Do we have a date on this?
7 Q. May be waves? 7 Q. Yeah. This was 2003 presentation.
8 A. No, it may be the sedimentation that 8 (Tendering.)
9 it's picking up on. You could have had, you 9 A. Okay.
10 know, some type of not storm event but some 10 Q. Okay? And it says that -- The
11 type of wind action where it creates sediment 11 Importance of Coastal Louisiana to the Nation.
12 in the water and that may be what it's picking 12 And it's got about five bullet points. Well,
13 up rather than depth. 13 we'll just go through them. Home of 35 percent
14 Q. Okay. So this could be just sediments 14 of U.S. commercial fisheries; Supplies U.S.
15 in here. 15 with 27 percent of its oil and 32 percent of
16 MR. LIDDLE: 16 its natural gas by its infrastructure; Port
17 Objection. 17 ranks Number 1 in the nation in tonnage; Home
18 A. You know, it's a guess. 18 to 70 percent of the Mississippi River Valley's
19 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 19 migratory waterfowl; and Coastal wetlands
20 Q. Whatever it is, this part right here 20 dampen hurricane surge.
21 is blue and this part is not, right? 21 Do you see that?
22 MR. LIDDLE: 22 A. This is the same thing?
23 Objection. 23 Q. Same thing I'm reading from.
24 A. It's bluer than other areas 24 A. Yes. I see it.
25 throughout. 25 Q. Okay. And do you remember -- well,
Page 133 Page 135
1 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 1 first of all, are those -- those are true, huh?
2 Q. Okay. All right. Well, let's see. 2 A. I think they are, yes.
3 Let's go back to just some simpler questions 3 MR. LIDDLE:
4 then. 4 Objection.
5 You do agree with me that part of the 5 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
6 reason for this diking at the Lake Borgne was 6 Q. Okay. And do you agree with me that
7 to reduce the wave action from the open channel 7 the loss of wetlands and the loss of -- or the
8 condition which would exist when this broke 8 creation of open water in their place will have
9 through. Correct? 9 a negative effect on storm surge protection?
12 A. From what I can recollect, that was 12 A. From all the information that I
13 part of the reason why we built that. 13 received at the time -- now, how much or how
14 Q. Okay. Good. 14 little? But yes, that would be true.
15 (Brief interruption.) 15 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
16 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 16 Q. Okay. Now, I've got another document
17 Q. I'm going to mark for identification 17 here which is pretty thick, and I don't want to
18 as Number 11 a slide from a Power Point 18 go through the whole thing but -- maybe that's
19 presentation which you did some time ago. This 19 not the right one. Oh, here it is. And I
20 was pre-Katrina. 20 don't think I'm going to put all this in
21 Do you remember this? 21 because it's redundant. Let me just put this
22 (Exhibit 11 was marked for 22 in. This is a letter apparently to a Col.
23 identification and is attached hereto.) 23 Eugene Witherspoon.
24 A. I gave many presentations, um -- you 24 Do you remember him?
25 know, in all different capacities, so, you 25 (Exhibit 12 was marked for
Page 134 Page 136
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1 identification and is attached hereto.) 1 projects. The Crescent SWCD would like to
2 A. Yes, I do. 2 encourage the Corps to actively pursue this
3 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 3 concept, especially in areas where valuable
4 Q. And what was his job? This is back in 4 marshlands are being subjected to rapid erosion
5 '85. 5 and land loss is accelerating. The Crescent
6 A. Okay. He had two positions, and I'm 6 SWCD would certainly be willing to coordinate
7 going to have to try to remember here. He was 7 contacts with local cooperating landowners
8 once the District Engineer, the District 8 discuss potential projects along the MRGO. We
9 Commander of the New Orleans District. 9 look forward to cooperating with the Corps in
10 Q. This is New Orleans District COE. 10 the actual application of marsh creation and
11 A. Okay. That's when he was district 11 enhancement projects. Maintenance dredging
12 commander. But at one point he was also the 12 appears to be a continuous process along the
13 division commander, so that's why I'm 13 MRGO. If adjacent landowners are willing to
14 qualifying the statement here. If it says New 14 have spoil placed on the northeast side of the
15 Orleans District COE, he should have been the 15 channel, what steps are required for this to
16 district engineer here. 16 occur? Thank you for your attention in this
17 Q. Okay. Now, it's clear that there was 17 matter, I look forward to your reply,
18 land loss on the sides of the MRGO due to 18 sincerely. (Tendering.)
19 erosion. I mean, we've been over that. 19 I'm going to mark that for
20 Correct? 20 identification as Exhibit Number 12.
21 A. Correct. 21 MR. LIDDLE:
22 Q. Okay. Now, this is a letter dated 22 Is there a question pending or
23 August the 5th, 1985, and it says -- oh, and 23 no?
24 it's from Lynn Gagnon, Chairman, Wetlands 24 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
25 Committee of the Crescent Soil and Water 25 Q. Were you aware of that communication
Page 137 Page 139
1 Conservation District in Norco, Louisiana. 1 or any one like it?

2 Now, it says, during the last three 2 MR. LIDDLE:
3 years the Crescent Soil and Water Conservation 3 Objection.
4 District has had the opportunity to assist 4 A. I was not aware of this communication.
5 several marshland owners in St. Bernard Parish 5 And as far as anything like that, you know, I
6 with properties bordering the Mississippi River 6 can't recollect any right now. Um --
7 Gulf Outlet, MRGO. As you are aware, the 7 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
8 erosion rate and subsequent conversion of land 8 Q. Do you know there was concern voiced
9 to open water along the northeast side of the 9 by various -- and I use the term because it's
10 canal is tremendous. Landowners cooperating 10 been used by many witnesses -- locals about the
11 with our district have indicated a willingness 11 wetland loss along the MRGO; correct?
12 to have dredged spoil from current and future 12 MR. LIDDLE:
13 MRGO maintenance projects placed on the 13 Objection.
14 northeast side of the channel. Conservation 14 A. Well, there are -- I am aware that
15 plans developed on marshlands in this area 15 there was concern of the wetland loss along the
16 indicate a high potential for improving large 16 MRGO, correct.
17 tracts of wildlife habitat with the proper 17 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
18 placement of soil and installation of water 18 Q. Okay. Now, who is C.J. Nettles?
19 control structures. This seems to support the 19 A. C.J. Nettles previously was the chief
20 Corps' suggestion on potential marsh creation 20 of operations division, but also held positions
21 along the MRGO discussed in the Louisiana 21 prior to that time.
22 Coastal Area Study findings presented at a 22 Q. Okay. And at this time in September
23 public meeting in August of 1984. We 23 of 1995, he was the chief of operations
24 understand the U.S. Corps of Engineers is very 24 division based on the next piece of
25 interested in marsh creation and enhancement 25 correspondence which I'm going to give you.
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1 And I'm going to ask you if you would, please, 1 incurred to retrieve these benefits, local
2 to read the entire contents of this into the 2 interests would be given reasonable opportunity
3 record. And it's Exhibit Number 13. 3 to finance them.
4 (Exhibit 13 was marked for 4 Probably some type of protective dike
5 identification and is attached hereto.) 5 parallel to the channel will be necessary to
6 MR. LIDDLE: 6 control erosion and provide land enhancement
7 We could do it a lot quicker if 7 benefits along the MRGO. If local landowners
8 you -- you're putting in it in the 8 are willing to absorb the cost for the
9 record. You really need him to read 9 construction of these dikes, we would be glad
10 it into the record? 10 to cooperate with them.
11 MR. LAMBERT: 11 Environmental clearances would also
12 Yeah. It's important. Look, 12 have to be acquired if material is deposited in
13 we're almost finished. 13 areas not previously designated. The
14 MR. LIDDLE: 14 government would assume the cost of these
15 We are? 15 requirements if disposal areas were granted in
16 MR. LAMBERT: 16 perpetuity. If rights of disposal were not
17 Be cool. Okay? 17 given on a perpetual basis, any environmental
18 A. I'm just going to read the memo? Or 18 clearances would be the responsibility of local
19 should I read -- 19 landowners.
20 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 20 If you should need any additional
21 Q. Sure. No, the memo is fine. 21 information concerning this matter, please
22 A. Okay. This is from C.J. Nettles, the 22 contact Mr. Gregory Breerwood of our dredging
23 Chief of Operations Division dated 23 planning section who may be reached at
24 September 9th, 1985 to Mr. Gagnon. 24 telephone number 504, 862-2316. And it's
25 Q. Did you follow him as Chief of 25 signed C.J. Nettles, the Chief of Operations
Page 141 Page 143
1 Operations Division? 1 Division.

2 A. No. 2 Q. Okay. And I take it that you don't
3 Q. There was somebody in between? 3 remember ever getting involved in that
4 A. Yes, there was. There was C.J. 4 discussion of using those materials on the
5 Nettles and there was Henry Shore, Robert 5 north side of the MRGO.
6 Tisdale, A.J. Guillot, Robert Schroeder, and 6 MR. LIDDLE:
7 then myself. 7 Objection.
8 Q. Okay. So there was a series of 8 A. I don't -- I don't recall that now,
9 people. 9 no, I don't.
10 A. Yes. 10 Q. Okay.
11 Q. You're in this correspondence and can 11 (Brief interruption.)
12 tell me what your position was. 12 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
13 A. Okay. Col. Witherspoon has asked that 13 Q. Okay. Those documents are dated in
14 I reply to your letter of August the 5th, 1985 14 1985.
15 concerning the disposal of dredge material 15 A. This one is 85.
16 along the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet. In 16 Q. This one is 1987. Before we get
17 your letter you suggested that the spoil 17 there, let's do this: Just so you understand
18 material could be used for marsh creation and 18 what I'm talking about here, these people are
19 enhancement projects along the northeast side 19 talking about coordinating efforts between
20 of the channel. It is our policy to secure 20 landowners on the north side -- northeast side
21 maximum practical benefits from the utilization 21 of the MRGO and the Corps to use dredged
22 of dredge material provided that no extra cost 22 materials to control bank erosion. Right?
23 is incurred by the government. Use of dredge 23 MR. LIDDLE:
24 material can include land reclamation and 24 Objection.
25 erosion control. If additional cost would be 25 A. To control land loss, yes.
Page 142 Page 144
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2 Q. And land loss. 2 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
3 A. Yes. 3 Q. Do you dispute that?
4 Q. So they want to preserve the marsh and 4 A. You're talking about the bankline
5 control erosion. Correct? 5 itself.
6 MR. LIDDLE: 6 Q. I'm talking about the marshland on the
7 Objection. 7 north side of the MRGO --
8 A. Can I read it again? Is that okay? 8 A. Okay.
9 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 9 Q. -- along that land cut, next to the
10 Q. Yeah. It says they're worried about 10 levee.
11 their marshland turning into open water. 11 A. All right. Now let me tell you --
12 A. Okay. But that could be caused by 12 MR. LIDDLE:
13 subsidence, okay? But I mean, obviously -- 13 Same objection.
14 Q. Okay. 14 A. What my thought is on, like you said,
15 A. I just want to make sure whether or 15 subsidence. It's -- very marginal subsidence,
16 not they say erosion here or not. Can I read 16 okay, can make a big difference in as far as
17 it again? Is that okay? 17 when something is converted to open water,
18 Q. Help yourself. 18 which then you lose the vegetation and then you
19 MR. LIDDLE: 19 loose that protective. So as far as the rate
20 Same objection. 20 of subsidence -- all right? That is one factor
21 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 21 that has to be considered. But also, it
22 Q. By the way. While you're reading it, 22 depends on whether that particular subsidence
23 have you ever looked at any historical 23 goes down to the point where now you lose all
24 documents about how many thousands of years 24 the vegetation, and that could be very minor.
25 historically it took for subsidence to occur 25 You know, I've always, you know, when I look
Page 145 Page 147
1 over areas like this? 1 at --

2 MR. LIDDLE: 2 Q. I understand.
3 Objection. 3 A. -- marsh and wetland.
4 Q. Like 500 AD or 500 BC, stuff like 4 Q. No, that's fine.
5 that? 5 A. -- and wetland deterioration, okay,
6 MR. LIDDLE: 6 it's not necessarily from the coastline coming
7 Objection. 7 in or from a bankline going out, it's a
8 A. I don't recall going that far back. 8 combination of lot of things. And we -- in
9 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 9 many cases it's from internal. Some subsidence
10 Q. Let me just ask you to assume that 10 to the point where it gets to, then it becomes
11 subsidence is fractional compared to six foot 11 critical. So that's what I was speaking of
12 wave wash on deep draft vessels that happens 12 when I'm reading this letter from a landowner
13 three times a day, which I don't think anybody 13 when says he's got land loss. And in reality
14 disputes. 14 it could be from subsidence and that
15 Do you really dispute that? 15 combination in areas where then he loses that
16 MR. LIDDLE: 16 vegetation and then he loses his land.
17 Objection. 17 Q. Okay. And look, if that's the way you
18 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 18 look at it -- what you're telling me as the
19 Q. Here's my question: Do you actually 19 operational manager, you know, the head guy on
20 dispute that -- and if you do, fine -- that the 20 the civilian side of the Corps of Engineers,
21 major cause of bank erosion and the conversion 21 you believe that people that own land along the
22 of marshland along the MRGO is from wave wash 22 north side of the MRGO are just as likely to be
23 from deep draft vessels as opposed to 23 losing their land from the -- and I'm talking,
24 subsidence? 24 you can see the channel line -- you think
25 MR. LIDDLE: 25 that's from subsidence instead of from the wave
Page 146 Page 148
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1 wash which was described in these documents. 1 the Corps in your view doing a favor to the
2 A. No. 2 people that have land along the MRGO that's
3 MR. LIDDLE: 3 being washed away by the wave wash, or are
4 Objection. 4 landowners entitled to have their property,
5 A. I think it's a combination. 5 their marsh, their land, protected from
6 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 6 erosion? What's your view?
7 Q. Okay. Well, if we had to look at the 7 MR. LIDDLE:
8 combination, wouldn't you agree with me that 8 Objection.
9 the bigger factor is a deep draft vessel 9 A. I mean that's, um -- that's a question
10 causing six-foot waves running up and down 10 I'm not sure I can answer. I can give you what
11 there rather than the subsidence? 11 I feel like -- in any dredging project, we
12 MR. LIDDLE: 12 dredge the channel as economically as we can,
13 Objection. 13 like we should. If the local folks or any
14 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 14 entity come in and say, we want to use that
15 Q. On that area. 15 material in another fashion that would cost
16 A. From the bankline. 16 more -- now, this is just a general statement,
17 Q. Yeah. 17 you know, this is environmentally -- you have
18 A. I would have to say yes. 18 to be cleared environmentally, you have to
19 Q. Okay. Fine. So let's quit doing that 19 be -- it has to have a lot of other things
20 just for a little while and go back to this 20 associate with it. But if they were willing to
21 document if we could. And tell me if you agree 21 pay for any additional costs to put the
22 with me that these landowners are -- I'm 22 material in a certain area, that did not affect
23 sorry -- that this organization is offering to 23 the project, you know, that like I'm saying,
24 coordinate efforts between the landowners along 24 was cleared in every other fax, we would
25 the north side of the MRGO and the Corps to use 25 attempt to work them on that. That's what I
Page 149 Page 151
1 the materials that are being scooped out of the 1 can recall us trying to do. Now --
2 MRGO for maintenance to keep the channel deep 2 Q. I understand.
3 enough and wide enough for navigational vessels 3 A. And there may be times when it was not
4 and putting it on the north side of the channel 4 possible for either timing as far as getting
5 to stop the land loss? 5 the dredging done in time, the environmental
6 MR. LIDDLE: 6 clearances might take longer than what you
7 Objection. 7 could, you know, what you could do, um --
8 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 8 there's a variety of other things that, you
9 Q. That's what's going on in these two 9 know, would come into play, not just
10 pieces of paper. 10 necessarily sharing the costs of the additional
11 MR. LIDDLE: 11 work.
12 Objection. 12 Q. Understood. All right. I understand
13 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 13 your response and I think that it's pretty
14 Q. Exhibit 12 and 13. 14 clear, but I want to make sure I understand.
15 A. Okay. And it appears that, you know, 15 And that is that as long as the dredge
16 this conservation district is attempting to 16 materials could be placed in a manner that
17 coordinate some type of, um -- like you're 17 would be beneficial to the landowner at no
18 saying, get together and use the material to 18 additional cost, um -- then, if it cleared the
19 benefit the landowners as much as possible. 19 other hurdles, timing, timing standpoint,
20 Q. Okay. 20 environmental and otherwise, that the Corps
21 A. That's what it looks like it's trying 21 would consider that. Correct?
22 to do. 22 MR. LIDDLE:
23 Q. That's nice. So let's just look at it 23 Objection.
24 this way: If the wave wash from the deep draft 24 A. That's correct.
25 vessels that's causing the land loss, um -- is 25 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
Page 150 Page 152
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1 Q. But it was the primary function of the 1 doesn't have -- I think he was the Chief of
2 Corps, no discretion, to keep the channel open. 2 Operations Division. It's from Charlton Ogden,
3 That was the mandate. Correct? 3 II, Secretary of the Biloxi Marsh Land
4 MR. LIDDLE: 4 Corporation and Lake Eugenie Land and
5 Objection. 5 Development, Inc.
6 A. Was to maintain the channel as it was 6 Dear Mr. Nettles: Before your last
7 authorized. 7 maintenance dredging operation along the
8 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 8 Mississippi River Gulf Outlet in St. Bernard
9 Q. Okay. Now, what about the loss of 9 Parish involving certain properties of Biloxi
10 property on the northeast side of the channel; 10 Marsh Lands Corporation and Lake Eugenie Land
11 do you feel like there was any responsibility 11 and Development, Inc., we met with your team of
12 on the part of the Corps because they hadn't 12 engineers. The meeting resulted in Biloxi and
13 done any shore protection to prevent erosion 13 Lake Eugenie granting the Corps permission to
14 from ship wake, do you think they had any 14 use areas designated as temporary spoil areas
15 responsibility to the landowner for the 15 in return for input into dike placement. The
16 destruction or the creation of open water, the 16 permission was granted for that particular
17 destruction of wetlands, however you want to 17 dredging operation only. We also agreed to
18 phrase it? I'm not wed to any language. Any 18 allow the contractor use of our private water
19 responsibility there? 19 control structures to remove excess water from
20 MR. LIDDLE: 20 the area. The contractor agreed to install
21 Objection. 21 permanent type water control structures in the
22 A. We didn't feel we had any 22 area if Biloxi would furnish the structures.
23 responsibility, no. 23 Biloxi had three structures fabricated and
24 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 24 delivered to the site and ready for
25 Q. Okay. Two years after that letter, 25 installation at a cost of over twenty thousand
Page 153 Page 155
1 those two letters transpired, there was another 1 dollars.

2 letter from a fellow named -- 2 A year has passed since our meeting.
3 A. Before you get into that, I want to 3 The contractor Mike Hooks, Inc. has completed
4 stop before -- could I have a two-minute break? 4 the job and left the area. The situation that
5 (Brief recess.) 5 exists is indicated by the following:
6 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 6 The dikes were never completed around
7 Q. Okay. Exhibit No. 14, particularly -- 7 the last containment area on the southeast
8 this is a letter to Mr. Nettles, two years 8 side. That was A.
9 later, after those two, and it says, um -- 9 B: Breaks and containment dikes still
10 well, let me -- 10 remain open to spoil spillage. This situation
11 A. Who is that from? 11 has allowed continual overflow into areas not
12 Q. It's from an attorney representing a 12 designated for spoil.
13 landowner. You can start reading it, and when 13 C: The permanent type structures
14 we get bored we'll stop. 14 purchased by Biloxi Marsh Lands Corporation
15 (Exhibit 14 was marked for 15 were never installed by the contractor and
16 identification and is attached hereto.) 16 still remain in storage.
17 A. I was just trying to get the -- 17 D: The temporary drain pipes were
18 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 18 never removed from the dike levees and remain
19 Q. Sure. 19 in place, corroding and allowing additional
20 A. Okay, it's several pages. You want me 20 erosion to the back levee.
21 to read it? 21 E: Uncontrolled boat traffic along
22 Q. Yeah. Just get started. We might get 22 the spoil canal continues to erode away the
23 to the point where we don't need any more. 23 banks on both sides. On the northeast side
24 A. Okay. This is letter dated October 24 this wave wash erodes the dike levee. On the
25 the 7th, 1987. It's to Mr. Nettles. Well, it 25 southeast side, the wave wash has eroded away
Page 154 Page 156
39 (Pages 153 to 156)

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7/10/2008
1 the boundary that exists between Bayou Pisano 1 Q. Okay. All right. Now, do you
2 (a natural bayou) and a canal. We now have 2 remember any of that? You're copied on it.
3 local fishermen attempting to lease our canal 3 MR. LIDDLE:
4 bottoms for fishing oysters. 4 Objection.
5 Because of these conditions and 5 A. I don't recall this right now, no, I
6 failure on our part the negotiation successful 6 don't.
7 word of mouth or gentleman type agreements, I 7 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
8 would like to recommended the following: 8 Q. Okay. Does it appear to you that --
9 1: Place rip-rap closures on the 9 this is in 1987 -- that the organization and
10 spoil canal where it parallels Biloxi or Lake 10 individuals involved in that communication are
11 Eugenie properties as indicated on Exhibit A. 11 attempting to work with the Corps to control
12 Subparagraph a: This would still allow boat 12 erosion and to beneficially use maintenance
13 traffic to enter Bayou Pisano prior to 13 dredging material on the north side, or
14 transversing Biloxi properties. See map. This 14 northeast side, however you want to look at it,
15 could be accomplished through further such 15 of the MRGO?
16 closures. 16 MR. LIDDLE:
17 2: Rebuild the shoreline on the 17 Objection.
18 northeast side of Bayou Pisano. Subparagraph 18 A. Now, I don't want to get into
19 a: This would again form a boundary separating 19 semantics here, but I'm looking to make sure
20 natural Bayou Pisano from the spoil canal. See 20 that it's the north or the south.
21 map in Exhibit A. 21 When you say the north, you're talking
22 3: Remove all debris and temporary 22 about this area?
23 pipes through the dike levees on request of 23 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
24 landowner. See map Exhibit B. Finance 24 Q. Yeah.
25 placement of permanent type structures along 25 A. And unless I'm looking at it wrong, I
Page 157 Page 159
1 the dike levees that could be used over long 1 think it's on this side.
2 periods of time. This would allow for 2 Q. Okay. On one side or the other.
3 restoration of the area to the wetland type 3 A. Okay.
4 environment which existed prior to spoil usage. 4 Q. How is that?
5 5: Coordinate alternative use of 5 A. All right.
6 spoil areas, and then this would allow wetland 6 MR. LIDDLE:
7 type habitats to develop during the times of 7 Objection.
8 nonuse. 8 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
9 6: Appoint a civilian advisory 9 Q. Now, do you know if any of this was
10 committee to discuss and make recommendations 10 ever done?
11 for more productive use of spoil areas. 11 MR. LIDDLE:
12 We would like very much to meet with 12 Objection.
13 you at your convenience to discuss the contents 13 A. I can't recall if that was done. We
14 of this letter. Very truly. This is Charlton 14 have quite --
15 B. Ogden, II. 15 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
16 Q. Okay. And then there is a map 16 Q. Okay. Now, do you remember any
17 attached? 17 instances where any structures, meaning houses,
18 A. Yes. There is. 18 camps, anything like that, were affected by
19 Q. And it shows the presence of the 19 wave wash erosion from the MRGO?
20 various references in the letter. 20 MR. LIDDLE:
22 Objection. 22 A. I don't recall any of that, no.
23 A. Yes. I'd have to go over it, but it 23 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
24 appears that it does. 24 Q. You've told me that you don't think
25 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 25 that the Corps has any responsibility for
Page 158 Page 160
40 (Pages 157 to 160)

BREERWOOD, GREGORY
7/10/2008
1 eroding, um -- the banks of the MRGO. Is that 1 A. I don't -- I don't remember that
2 along either side, the north side or the south 2 taking place, no.
3 side? 3 Q. -- on surge?
4 MR. LIDDLE: 4 A. Betsy was in '65. I started in '69.
5 Objection. 5 Q. No, I understand.
6 A. That's correct. 6 After Betsy, there was apparently a
7 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 7 dredging program along the MRGO to obtain
8 Q. Okay. Did you become familiar with 8 materials to build the levee along the south
9 saltwater intrusion having an effect on 9 side. Do you know anything about that?
10 wetlands as a result of the tidal channel 10 MR. LIDDLE:
11 created by this MRGO? 11 Objection.
12 MR. LIDDLE: 12 A. No, I don't. I don't.
14 A. Yes. I became aware of that. I don't 14 Q. Okay. Between Hurricane Betsy in 1965
15 know when exactly, but, um -- I did become 15 and Hurricane Katrina in 2005, forty years
16 aware of that, yes. 16 passed; right?
17 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Okay. And so you were also aware that 18 Q. During that forty years, do you know
19 the saltwater intrusion was having a negative 19 of any steps taken on the north side of the
20 effect on the marshes, correct? 20 MRGO, other than what you've already told me
21 MR. LIDDLE: 21 about right around the Lake Borgne I call it
22 Objection. 22 convergence --
23 A. The saltwater is detrimental to 23 A. Okay.
24 certain type of marsh grasses, that's correct. 24 Q. -- to control the rate of erosion of
25 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 25 the MRGO 's banks on the north side?
Page 161 Page 163
1 Q. Okay. Do you know that it also has an 1 MR. LIDDLE:

2 effect on cypress swamps, or swamps? 2 Objection.
3 A. Saltwater? 3 A. (Indicating.)
5 Objection. 5 Q. Yes. In the area -- let's confine it.
6 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 6 In the area of the St. Bernard levee.
7 Q. Yeah. 7 A. Up in this area?
8 A. I think it does, yes. 8 Q. Yeah.
9 Q. Okay. Were there any sorts of surge 9 A. Okay. Um -- in our dredging process,
10 studies done, to your knowledge, in Vicksburg? 10 what I can recall is that in our containment
11 MR. LIDDLE: 11 dikes, in order to make sure that the material
12 Objection. 12 doesn't come back into the channel, we would
13 A. Well, we always -- we tended to 13 put a certain amount of either dikes or
14 coordinate with Vicksburg in a lot of projects. 14 whatever, in some cases foreshore protection,
15 I don't know if we coordinated with them about 15 in combination with the dikes. But that was in
16 this particular project and surge -- now, after 16 association with the dredging program and it
17 Katrina I think that all of us were involved as 17 wasn't specifically associated with necessarily
18 far as looking at the surge, Vicksburg as well 18 I think erosion control.
19 as the district. Prior to that, I'm -- I 19 Q. Okay. That was on the south side.
20 don't -- I'm not -- I can't remember. 20 A. Well, I think on the north side, too.
21 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 21 Q. Where along the north side?
22 Q. You don't remember if after Betsy 22 A. Well, I mean, it's hard for me to
23 there were studies done to make some sort of a 23 remember, but I know in this area for sure.
24 determination as to whether or not the MRGO had 24 Okay?
25 in effect on -- 25 Q. Right.
Page 162 Page 164
41 (Pages 161 to 164)

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7/10/2008
1 A. Um -- 1 look at this map as well. Okay? I may have my

2 Q. Well, listen to my question. 2 locations --
3 I'm sorry. Go ahead? 3 Q. I'm not asking you about down in here
4 A. I think there was another areas we 4 because we know we've got something down here.
5 were looking at. Now, here again, whether or 5 A. Okay. Well, maybe that's what I'm
6 not we actually did it or not, but whenever 6 thinking of.
7 there was dredging that was required, either we 7 Q. I'm not asking about that because I
8 put it into disposal areas or in areas that we 8 confined my question to from here, which is --
9 could have done something, you know, 9 this is where --
10 beneficially. But at the same time, you know, 10 A. The disposal area is, more or less.
11 in order to do it beneficially, you would have 11 Q. And it's also where there is a attempt
12 to make sure that it doesn't hurt the 12 at a levee along here at Post 65, in that area,
13 environment, but also it doesn't come back into 13 other than this convergence of Lake Borgne with
14 the channel. 14 the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet channel,
15 Now, I don't recall -- I seem to 15 which you've already told us about --
16 remember -- you asked me a general question, 16 A. I understand.
17 I'm giving you a general answer -- that there 17 MR. LIDDLE:
18 was some areas in here that although you may 18 Objection.
19 call it foreshore protection it was a 19 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
20 combination of dikes to prevent the material 20 Q. -- that there was a structure put here
21 from coming back into the channel. 21 to prevent the waves from coming across and
22 Q. Okay. Let me ask my question again. 22 affecting traffic.
23 With the exception of this area right 23 MR. LIDDLE:
24 here where I understand there is a structure, 24 Objection, if that's a question.
25 dike, along with some sort of containment 25 A. Go ahead.
Page 165 Page 167
1 system from dredge material in this area -- 1 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:

2 A. Correct. 2 Q. Other than that area, do you know of
3 Q. -- other than that, from here, which 3 anything done for the forty years between
4 is the end of the St. Bernard hurricane 4 Hurricane Betsy and Hurricane Katrina to
5 protection levee, up to here, which is the 5 control the erosion which is clearly
6 convergence of the MRGO with the Intracoastal 6 significant along the north side of that
7 Waterway, do you know of any attempt to control 7 channel?
8 the erosion that's outlined in these areas, 8 A. Okay.
9 other than right at the convergence of Lake 9 MR. LIDDLE:
10 Borgne? 10 Objection.
11 MR. LIDDLE: 11 A. I can't recall.
13 A. Here again, you're saying contain the 13 Q. Okay.
14 erosion. Okay? 14 A. Okay?
15 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 15 Q. Has the Corps dealt with subsidence
16 Q. On the north side. 16 issues before in terms of its structures --
17 A. I understand. From my recollection, 17 MR. LIDDLE:
18 it was not necessarily to contain the erosion, 18 Objection.
19 it was to -- when we had a dredging reach in 19 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
20 here that needed some type of dredging, okay, 20 Q. -- to your knowledge?
21 depending on where it was -- now, maybe I'm 21 A. You talking about subsidence?
22 thinking of further down. Okay? I might have 22 Q. Natural subsidence.
23 my locations -- 23 A. Which structures? I don't know.
24 Q. Here's further down. 24 Q. Well, along a levee where subsidence
25 A. Okay. Well, I'm just saying -- I can 25 has occurred and a levee has, um -- gotten
Page 166 Page 168
42 (Pages 165 to 168)

BREERWOOD, GREGORY
7/10/2008
1 lower over time. 1 Objection.

2 A. Well, that's a typical -- 2 A. I don't know. You'd have to probably
3 MR. LIDDLE: 3 talk with levee folks about that -- you talking
4 Objection. 4 about this one here?
5 A. -- occurrence throughout our levee 5 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
6 system, is that depending on where it is you 6 Q. No, not the levee. Just the north
7 have some subsidence and it requires additional 7 side.
8 lifts. 8 A. Oh, I don't think so.
9 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 9 Q. Okay.
10 Q. Okay. So that's nothing new for the 10 A. I'm not aware of it, anyway.
11 Corps of Engineers, to deal with a subsidence 11 Q. All right. Since you didn't believe
12 issue, is it? 12 that there was any responsibility on the part
13 MR. LIDDLE: 13 of the Corps of Engineers to address the
14 Objection. 14 erosion issues along the MRGO, I imagine that
15 A. No. And it depends, here again, on 15 you never took any steps to communicate a
16 the weight of the particular structure you're 16 request to higher ups to get authorization to
17 putting on. 17 deal with the problem. Is that fair?
19 Q. I understand. So if natural 19 Objection.
20 subsidence is causing a problem in terms of 20 A. I don't remember doing that, no.
21 some structure that the Corps wants to protect, 21 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
22 it has historically been able to analyze those 22 Q. Okay. Can you help me with this memo
23 subsidence problems and in the context of 23 in 1991? I just don't understand it.
24 levees do lifts or make them higher, correct? 24 (Tendering.)
25 MR. LIDDLE: 25 (Exhibit 16 was marked for
Page 169 Page 171
1 Objection. 1 identification and is attached hereto.)

2 A. Well, you know, I'm not in the levee 2 MR. LIDDLE:
3 section or levee business,as far as the 3 Objection if that's a question.
4 construction of those levees, all right? So 4 MR. LAMBERT:
5 you'd probably be best to ask someone else that 5 That's the question.
6 question. 6 MR. LIDDLE:
7 We have subsidence. We know that. 7 Objection.
8 You know, based on how much weight you have, 8 Was the question can you help me
9 and depending on where it's located throughout 9 out?
10 our region, the subsurface and so forth, um -- 10 Could you repeat that question?
11 we're aware of that. And so I'm just speaking 11 MR. LAMBERT:
12 in terms of levees from a general standpoint -- 12 I'll do it for you.
13 Q. That's what I'm asking you. 13 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
14 A. -- is that, you know, when a levee 14 Q. Can you help me understand that memo,
15 subsides, and we typically know that to some 15 please?
16 degree that they're going to subside, that 16 MR. LIDDLE:
17 there are lifts that are planned to take care 17 Objection.
18 of that subsidence and bring the project to its 18 THE WITNESS:
19 proper elevation. 19 You want to read it?
20 Q. Do you know of any steps taken by the 20 MR. LIDDLE:
21 Corps of Engineers to address the issue that 21 Sure.
22 you mentioned might have something to do with 22 A. How would you like me to answer it?
23 the deterioration of the north side of the MRGO 23 What is it that you'd like to know?
24 along the Reach 2? 24 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
25 MR. LIDDLE: 25 Q. Okay. Let me be more specific.
Page 170 Page 172
43 (Pages 169 to 172)

BREERWOOD, GREGORY
7/10/2008
1 It says, subject: Request for 1 Q. Okay.

2 controlled hydraulic and overbank surveys 2 A. Um --
3 between 49 and 58 of the MRGO. 3 Q. Here's my question: Wait. Let me get
4 Where is that along the MRGO? 4 you a little more directed.
5 A. You said 48 and 59? 5 A. Okay.
6 Q. 49 and 58. 6 Q. This is the area that you were talking
7 A. This is 49 right here, and here is 58 7 about where the Lake Borgne --
8 here. 8 A. This area here.
9 Q. Okay. Now, it says, reference a 9 Q. -- was becoming connected, so to speak
10 conversation between Lowrey Williamson of your 10 open water, to the MRGO, right?
11 office and Mr. Fred Schilling of the 11 MR. LIDDLE:
12 navigational section in May of 1991 concerning 12 Objection.
13 the above subject. 13 A. In this area here.
14 Request that engineering division 14 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
15 perform controlled hydraulic survey from bank 15 Q. Yes. Isn't that right?
16 to bank from Mile 49 through 58 on an emergency 16 A. That's this area here. Yes.
17 basis. The survey is required as soon as 17 MR. LIDDLE:
18 possible in order to document current 18 Objection.
19 conditions of this critical reach of the 19 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
20 waterway. 20 Q. Yeah. And from your standpoint, and
21 Overbank surveys on the north side 21 it's not in that memo so you can just make sure
22 should also be conducted on emergency basis to 22 I got it clear, a ship traveling along that
23 include those disposal areas in Plan 4 and also 23 portion of the MRGO next to the Lake Borgne
24 the areas in Plans 3 and 6. 24 intersection could encounter wave action in
25 Is that that section that you were 25 that area if that were to become open water,
Page 173 Page 175
1 telling me about that the MRGO needed to be 1 right?

2 protected from wave action from the open Lake 2 MR. LIDDLE:
3 Borgne? 3 Objection.
4 MR. LIDDLE: 4 A. There's always that possibility, yes.
6 A. Well, this memo is from the chief, or 6 Q. Well, that was the one of the
7 the acting chief operations, chief of engineer 7 concerns.
8 division, to ask him to do, like you say, 8 MR. LIDDLE:
9 wanted to make sure of hydrographic surveys and 9 Objection.
10 also overbank surveys. 10 A. Sure.
12 Q. Right. That means survey it not only 12 Q. And the concern was that the ship
13 under the water but as it goes up to the water 13 wouldn't get pushed by waves because of the
14 level and then over the top of whatever is 14 open water; right?
15 there, right? Bank. 15 MR. LIDDLE:
16 A. That's correct. 16 Objection.
17 Q. Okay. 17 A. In other words, affected by that open
18 A. And I'm trying to see here where you 18 water influence.
19 said I was the north bank. I must have missed 19 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
20 that. 20 Q. Yes. Influencing it meaning the waves
21 MR. LIDDLE: 21 would come into contact with that water, waves,
22 Objection if that was the 22 current, whatever, and affect the vessel 's
23 question. 23 straight line performance, right?
24 A. It says north side. Okay. 24 MR. LIDDLE:
Page 174 Page 176
44 (Pages 173 to 176)

BREERWOOD, GREGORY
7/10/2008
1 A. Yes. 1 MR. LIDDLE:

2 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 2 Is there a question in that?
3 Q. Okay. Let me show you another 3 MR. LAMBERT:
4 document which I'm going to mark for 4 Yeah.
5 identification. I don't know why all these 5 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
6 pages are attached. Let me just see if there's 6 Q. Did you say those things?
7 something I can tear out. This is a excerpt 7 MR. LIDDLE:
8 from obviously -- maybe that's why it's 8 Objection.
9 attached to all this stuff. From a news print. 9 A. You know, without reading the whole
10 And it's got 1990 on it. It's got a Bates 10 letter and remembering, um -- I would have to
11 number on it. I better leave it connected 11 say that I did say those things, yeah.
12 because that might be why it's connected. 12 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
13 This is from an article that state 13 Q. Okay. So you remember having
14 tells Corps to revise plans to dredge channel. 14 discussions with Junior Rodriguez and others in
15 And it discusses this issue that we've been 15 St. Bernard, telling them that the north side
16 talking about all day. For years the 16 of the MRGO was not an area where disposal
17 Mississippi River Gulf Outlet has washed away 17 could be done without building some dikes,
18 pieces of St. Bernard Parish and with it acres 18 something to keep the stuff from washing back
19 of real estate and the livelihoods of fishermen 19 in.
20 and trappers, so on and so forth. 20 MR. LIDDLE:
21 Then it says, quote, it's one hell of 21 Objection.
22 a problem out here that we seem to get no help 22 A. I don't recall the specific
23 from the Corps, said Police Juror Henry 23 conversation with Mr. Rodriguez or anybody
24 Rodriguez, Jr. 24 else, but, you know, that -- what I said here
25 Do you know him? 25 was true, that, you know, any type of
Page 177 Page 179
1 (Exhibit 15 was marked for 1 alternative disposal methods that would cost us
2 identification and is attached hereto.) 2 more, you know, we couldn't do.
3 A. Junior Rodriguez? 3 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
4 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 4 Q. Okay. And that's consistent with what
5 Q. Yeah. 5 you've told us here today; correct?
6 A. Yes. 6 A. I think so. I hope so.
7 Q. Okay. Who has been trying for years 7 Q. No, do you know how it is that the O&M
8 to get the Corps to change its policy. 8 budget paid for the foreshore protection on the
9 Rodriguez said he's glad to see the state has 9 south side of the MRGO in the eighties, along
10 finally taken a stand. But Corps officials 10 the reach by the St. Bernard?
11 said federal regulations require the Corps, in 11 MR. LIDDLE:
12 most cases, to dispose of dredge spoil in the 12 Objection.
13 cheapest manner possible as long as it doesn't 13 A. Well, I mean, this was a long time
14 damage the environment. Changing the disposal 14 ago, but the only thing -- well, this is
15 site to the north bank of the MRGO would 15 supposition on my part. It was associated with
16 require building dikes to keep the soil from 16 the dikes to control the disposal.
17 washing back into the shipping channel, said 17 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
18 Greg Breerwood, chief of the Corps 's 18 Q. Disposal.
19 navigational section. That would cost $800,000 19 A. That's correct.
20 to $1 million a mile, Breerwood said. 20 Q. Okay. So in other words, you got to
21 And then later on, down here, I got 21 pump the material back behind those rocks, or
22 another little green part that you said, if the 22 the foreshore protection, you got to keep it
23 Corps is prevented from dredging, Breerwood 23 from coming back into the channel.
24 said, the channel would fill up and become 24 MR. LIDDLE:
25 difficult to navigate. (Tendering.) 25 Objection.
Page 178 Page 180
45 (Pages 177 to 180)

BREERWOOD, GREGORY
7/10/2008
1 A. That's correct. 1 Q. That draws 40 feet on the MRGO.

3 Q. Okay. All right. And O&M budget, 3 Objection.
4 operation and maintenance, means that it was 4 A. I don't know. I'd have to go back to
5 justifiable from a dredging standpoint to do it 5 the books.
6 that way. 6 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
7 MR. LIDDLE: 7 Q. 60,000 plus or minus dead weight tons.
8 Objection. 8 Does which sound like something --
10 Q. Right? 10 Objection.
11 A. Well, it's justifiable to do it that 11 A. Well, it depends. On the MRGO, you
12 way if it pertains to the maintenance of the 12 know, the size of the ships and the
13 channel, that's correct. 13 displacement of them, basically that's what it
14 Q. Okay. All right. Did you consider, 14 is is the displacement of the water is what you
15 or would you consider -- I mean, do you 15 weigh. I know that in the Mississippi River
16 consider the foreshore protection on the south 16 you can have 60 to 70,000 dead weight tons and
17 side as a hurricane protection project? 17 higher.
19 Objection. 19 Q. Uh-huh.
20 A. The foreshore protection on the south, 20 A. Okay? I have to say that on the MRGO
21 you're talking about this side here. 21 you had sizable ships, but I don't know their
22 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 22 tonnage.
23 Q. Yeah. 23 Q. Okay. Well, what you're talking about
24 A. My recollection, it was always in 24 is obviously the weight of the ship is going to
25 conjunction with protect ing the disposal 25 be the same whether it's on the MRGO or whether
Page 181 Page 183
1 dikes. Disposal dikes wasn't necessarily 1 it's on the Mississippi River, but its
2 associated with hurricane protection. 2 displacement as a percentage of the water
3 Q. Okay. And the disposal dikes would 3 available in the channel would be a higher
4 control the erosion on the south side so that 4 ratio in a smaller channel like the MRGO.
5 when you pumped -- when you pumped the dredge 5 MR. LIDDLE:
6 material out, which comes out in a slurry, it 6 Objection.
7 could go into that area and not run back into 7 A. In other words --
8 the channel, right? 8 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
9 MR. LIDDLE: 9 Q. In other words, if I drop a golf ball
10 Objection. 10 in a coffee cup, it's going to have a bigger
11 A. That's correct. 11 effect than if I drop a golf ball in a 5-gallon
12 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 12 bucket, in terms of the height of the water;
13 Q. Okay. How much does a container 13 right?
14 vessel weigh? 14 MR. LIDDLE:
16 Objection. 16 A. I would say you're right, yes.
17 A. A container vessel, like a ship or -- 17 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
18 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 18 Q. So, and the same thing goes with a
19 Q. Loaded. Ship. 19 ship on the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet, it's
20 A. Gee. There's so many of them I don't 20 going to displace more water, meaning it's
21 know what to tell you. I mean -- 21 going to affect the channel that it's in, from
22 Q. Big one. 22 a drawdown standpoint and wake standpoint, more
23 MR. LIDDLE: 23 because it's a small channel than in the
24 Objection. 24 Mississippi River where it's a bigger channel?
Page 182 Page 184
46 (Pages 181 to 184)

BREERWOOD, GREGORY
7/10/2008
1 Objection. 1 A. Go ahead. Go ahead. And the third

2 A. I guess there are some varying 2 benefit is?
3 degrees. It might be very minor, depending, 3 Q. That's the second one. You okay with
4 you know -- 4 the second one?
6 Q. Yeah, if it gets into an eroded area 6 Objection.
7 maybe it wouldn't be so bad. 7 A. How significant it is I don't know,
8 A. Yeah. 8 but yes.
9 Q. Now, the purpose of the dike or the 9 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
10 structure, whatever you want to call it, at the 10 Q. And that third one is, it gives you a
11 convergence of Lake Borgne to the Mississippi 11 place close in there, in that reach area, to
12 River Gulf Outlet, was to reduce the effect of 12 dispose of dredge material.
13 open water, waves, on vessel traffic. 13 MR. LIDDLE:
16 A. To my recollection, it was a 16 Q. Correct?
17 combination; It was that as well as that 17 A. Correct.
18 putting some material behind them. 18 Q. Now, you can dispose of dredge
19 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 19 material on the south side, too. Right?
20 Q. To build up the marsh? 20 MR. LIDDLE:
21 A. Well, combination, you know, for -- 21 Objection.
22 MR. LIDDLE: 22 A. Yes.
24 A. -- for some type of wetland benefit. 24 Q. That's the designated traditional
25 Yeah, but also material coming from the channel 25 disposal area; correct?
Page 185 Page 187
1 as a means of disposal. 1 MR. LIDDLE:

3 Q. Okay. So, well what you got here is 3 A. Well, here we're getting into the
4 you're dredging this thing for maintenance 4 technical aspects of dredging. Okay?
5 purposes, all of a sudden the lake and the 5 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
6 channel are coming together, Lake Borgne 's 6 Q. No we're not.
7 waves are coming into the channel, the shoaling 7 A. Well, let me just --
8 or the sediment moving is being affected in 8 Q. I don't want to get into that. If I
9 that area, so you build something along the 9 did that I'm mistaken and I'll withdraw it.
10 north side of the channel for two reasons, one, 10 I'm just getting into simple stuff.
11 you don't want the vessel traffic to be 11 MR. LIDDLE:
12 affected by the waves -- correct? 12 Are you withdrawing that last
13 MR. LIDDLE: 13 question?
14 Objection. 14 MR. LAMBERT:
15 A. That's correct. 15 Yeah.
17 Q. And second, you can stop that 17 Q. Normally you put the dredge material
18 contribution of sediment in that area to the 18 over here, right? For years and years and
19 dredging, correct? 19 years.
20 MR. LIDDLE: 20 A. That's correct.
21 Objection. 21 MR. LIDDLE:
22 A. (Nods affirmatively.) 22 Objection.
24 Q. And there's a third benefit -- I'm 24 Q. And you got a dike along here or a
25 sorry. 25 rock revetment or whatever, foreshore
Page 186 Page 188
47 (Pages 185 to 188)

BREERWOOD, GREGORY
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1 protection, keeps it from coming back in here, 1 Q. Okay. How do you know that the
2 right? 2 purpose of that structure at the Lake Borgne
3 MR. LIDDLE: 3 intersection was intended to reduce the effect
4 Objection. 4 of wave action from Lake Borgne on ships
5 A. Well, it keeps -- it maintains the 5 passing in the MRGO? How do you know that?
6 dikes so where we can retain the material, 6 MR. LIDDLE:
7 that's correct. 7 Objection.
8 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 8 A. I'm just going on what you asked me
9 Q. Right. But when this lake starts to 9 like in the, um -- the chocolate cake?
10 come in contact with this channel, you want to 10 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
11 build something along here to help the effect 11 Q. Yeah.
12 of this open water and wave situation, right? 12 A. You know, and this is what I thought
13 MR. LIDDLE: 13 was some of the reasons why we wanted to close
14 Objection. 14 off that area. As far as if there was a
15 A. Very similar to the further down into 15 particular document or a study or
16 the channel. 16 correspondence, I don't recall that to be. I
17 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 17 just gave you what I thought was my impression
18 Q. Okay. Right. Now, just so I don't 18 of why it was done.
19 have a bunch of here, here, heres on the 19 Q. Okay. And that's based on your
20 record, a significant factor in the north bank 20 experience with the Corps of Engineers, knowing
21 protection of the MRGO channel in the area 21 what you know because you were in charge of
22 discussed in this exhibit which I forgot to 22 navigation for a long time.
23 mark, which is now 16, that I asked you for 23 A. I was in a variety --
24 some help understanding -- 24 MR. LIDDLE:
25 A. Uh-huh. 25 Objection.
Page 189 Page 191
1 Q. -- was the structure built in the area 1 A. -- of positions throughout my career,

2 of the convergence of the Lake Borgne and the 2 in some cases I was in charge of certain things
3 Mississippi River Gulf Outlet. 3 and other times I wasn't. But I was privy to
4 MR. LIDDLE: 4 meetings and conversations and things in the
5 Objection. 5 process of my whole career that I learned of
6 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 6 certain things or I just became aware of
7 Q. Correct? 7 certain things that was not under my direct
8 A. Well, this memo asked them to do a 8 purview --
9 survey in that reach. Okay? Now, at the time, 9 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
10 I don't know if that was the consideration to 10 Q. I understand.
11 build the structure there or to whatever the 11 A. -- and I didn't have any influence on.
12 case may be. All right? This is simply asking 12 So that's why, you know, I'm giving you some
13 to do a survey from bank to bank as well as 13 general answers of what my impression is, but
14 overbank to get an idea of what the channel 14 at the time I may not have been in a position
15 looked like, the berm looked like, as well as 15 to make any decisions or influence.
16 the overbank. That's what I get the intent -- 16 Q. Based on your experience with the
17 now, as far as, you know, how or why, you know, 17 Corps and your position as operations manager
18 what was going on at the time that this memo 18 and chief operations manager and your position
19 was written, I guess I don't know. 19 in the navigation wing back when that's what it
20 Q. Okay. When was that built, do you 20 was, it makes sense to you that that's a
21 know? 21 factor, correct?
22 A. I don't remember. 22 MR. LIDDLE:
24 Objection. 24 A. As far as, you know, just my
25 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 25 recollection, just like the further reaches
Page 190 Page 192
48 (Pages 189 to 192)

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1 down where you have open water and you have 1 A. Well, this is zero here. Here's 200.
2 dikes on both sides, it would make sense to me 2 Here's 250. Here's zero. It looks like --
3 to put something here to eliminate an open 3 oop, is that 100 or 200? Sorry. I apologize.
4 water intrusion into the channel. 4 Okay, I correct my -- I have to get my glasses.
5 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 5 This looks like it's 100, and 150, and this
6 Q. Okay. I understand. 6 looks like it's 100, so it looks like it's
7 Okay. I think we're done, but let me 7 somewhere in the neighborhood of 300 feet here
8 just -- Oh, wait. 8 at the bottom.
9 A. One other correction. You've been 9 Q. Which I didn't get.
10 saying operations manager. Okay? That's a 10 A. I don't either.
11 distinct name for the project manager. 11 Q. Okay.
12 Q. Oh, for the MRGO person. I'm sorry. 12 MR. LIDDLE:
13 A. I was never the operations manager. 13 Objection, if there a question
14 Q. You were the chief. 14 pending.
15 A. That's correct. 15 MR. LAMBERT:
16 Q. I understand. I'm sorry. Didn't mean 16 Look, if you don't get it I can't
17 to do that. 17 help you, Keith, right now. I'm just
18 Somebody gave me these things, and it 18 trying to understand this survey.
19 says Mississippi River Gulf Outlet, Shell 19 That's all I'm asking him. It's very
20 Beach, Hopedale, Louisiana, and I don't know 20 simple. It's not rocket science. And
21 what they are, and the width seems wider at the 21 he's trying to help me understand it,
22 bottom. 22 and he's trying to understand it, and
23 A. Now, these may not be -- 23 if you stop that we'd be out of here.
24 MR. LIDDLE: 24 You getting mad at me?
25 Did you have a question? 25 MR. LIDDLE:
Page 193 Page 195
1 MR. LAMBERT: 1 No. I just don't know what else

2 Yeah. 2 to say. But I object. I don't know
3 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 3 what the question is.
4 Q. I want to know what you think those 4 A. Also, I'd like to say, you know, you
5 are. 5 can see that the side slopes here are much more
6 MR. LIDDLE: 6 vertical. But to save paper, they're not
7 Objection. 7 necessarily --
9 Q. And the somebody that gave me those 9 Q. To scale.
10 was the Corps of Engineers. 10 A. -- to scale.
11 A. Well, it appears to be, now, you know, 11 Q. No, and I understand that. And the
12 I don't -- 12 side slopes there, I understand why they look
13 Q. Uh-huh. 13 like that, because it's about a 36-foot depth
14 A. -- is that this is an overlay of the 14 or so because this is 40, to 0, and of course
15 channel on the survey of the bottom. 15 if the scale is distorted then the slopes will
16 Q. Okay. 16 be distorted.
17 A. All right. Now, keep in mind that -- 17 MR. LIDDLE:
18 Q. The channel being the design channel, 18 Objection to the extent that's a
19 right? 19 question.
20 A. That's correct. 20 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
21 Q. Yeah. But look at the width at the 21 Q. I just think somebody's got the scale
22 bottom of it based on that scale. 22 belong on the bottom.
23 A. Okay. You got here 1. 23 MR. LIDDLE:
24 MR. LIDDLE: 24 Same objection.
25 Objection if that's a question. 25 A. I don't know. But I mean according to
Page 194 Page 196
49 (Pages 193 to 196)

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1 what that says, it looks like it's got 1 A. It's got here 2004. Is that
2 300 feet. 2 5/21/2004?
3 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 3 Q. I'm sorry. I was looking at this
4 Q. Right. Now, the surveys that were 4 thing over here.
5 done pursuant to Exhibit Number 16, which 5 A. Yeah. It looks like 2004.
6 you're copied on, at that point in time you 6 Q. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So this would be
7 were the -- 7 May 21, 2004. And it says pre-survey. So that
8 A. What date was that? 8 must be -- when would a pre-survey, before
9 Q. '91. And it's got your title on here 9 dredging?
10 and an acronym. 10 A. Typically.
11 MR. LIDDLE: 11 Q. So this would be about twelve or
12 Objection to the extent that's a 12 thirteen months before Katrina.
13 question. 13 A. Let's say. If it's May of '04,
14 A. I think I was in the navigation 14 Katrina hit August of '05, yeah.
15 section at the time. 15 Q. All right. This document shows you
16 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 16 copied, and I'm going to mark it for
17 Q. Okay. 17 identification as Number 18. 1991.
18 A. Okay. 18 (Tendering.) Would you take a look at it. It
19 Q. Where would that survey be stored, 19 seems to discuss that concept that I was asking
20 that bank-to-bank and the overland and all that 20 you if you were familiar with about stable
21 kind of stuff? That's a question. 21 berms.
22 MR. LIDDLE: 22 (Exhibit 18 was marked for
23 That I got. I saw a little 23 identification and is attached hereto.)
24 question mark at the end of it. 24 MR. LIDDLE:
25 MR. LAMBERT: 25 Objection if that's a question.
Page 197 Page 199
1 Okay. 1 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:

2 A. Those surveys would be -- if we 2 Q. Sure. Please read it.
3 requested it then we would have it. Okay? But 3 A. Okay.
4 also engineering division typically would have 4 Q. It says, the other alternative is
5 it, as well. Now, this far back I don't know 5 construction of a stable berm to attenuate wave
6 where they are now. 6 energy in Breton Sound. And the stable berm as
7 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 7 described in here is a below water formation
8 Q. Okay. And we would have it, that 8 from dredge materials. Um -- I take it you're
9 would be in the navigational section? 9 familiar with that concept of a stable berm,
10 A. That would be operations division and 10 something below surface affecting, as it says
11 navigation. Typically, we have section -- we 11 in here, wave energy.
12 have a surveying section -- not section but 12 MR. LIDDLE:
13 unit in that navigation arena that would store 13 Objection.
14 the surveys. We have one arena where we stored 14 A. Well, I'm familiar with an underwater
15 all the surveys. 15 berm.
16 Q. I am going to mark for identification, 16 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
17 just so the record is clear, Exhibit Number 17, 17 Q. And parallel to a shoreline you know
18 the first page of this. And all we need to do 18 that it affects wave energy.
19 is just put one page in it. 19 MR. LIDDLE:
20 (Exhibit 17 was marked for 20 Objection.
21 identification and is attached hereto.) 21 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
22 A. What date is that, if I could ask? 22 Q. Correct?
23 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 23 A. Well, actually, you're speaking of
24 Q. May 20th, it looks like 1980. 24 dikes perpendicular to the shoreline, right? I
25 (Tendering.) 25 mean previously -- I don't mean to go back on
Page 198 Page 200
50 (Pages 197 to 200)

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1 an old question, but I mean -- 1 over this underwater thing, in this case it's a
2 Q. Well, if the MRGO -- 2 berm, it could be a structure.
3 A. Over here. 3 MR. LIDDLE:
4 Q. No, watch out now. Here's what I'm 4 Objection.
5 talking about: I was talking about the 5 A. It depends on how high the berm is in
6 sandbar. Remember that, we were talking about 6 relation to the depth of the water.
7 it parallel to a shore -- 7 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
8 A. Okay. 8 Q. Right.
9 Q. -- and the waves break on the sandbar? 9 A. Right.
10 That's what I'm talking about. 10 Q. Right. And the higher the berm or
11 A. Okay. 11 structure, the more it would attenuate wave
12 Q. If you build a sandbar, i.e., a berm, 12 action that's coming up against it, correct?
13 and it's stable meaning it's going to not move 13 MR. LIDDLE:
14 that much, then that's going to break waves 14 Objection.
15 that come over it. Correct? 15 A. It would stop the lower elevation wave
16 MR. LIDDLE: 16 action, but then it would tend to -- the higher
17 Objection. 17 elevation, now, I'm not too sure of.
19 Q. And it would be perpendicular to the 19 Q. What do you mean by that?
20 wave action, you're right. 20 A. In other words, you've got a whole
21 A. Right. 21 body of water moving.
22 MR. LIDDLE: 22 Q. Okay. Let's just take the -- across
23 Objection. 23 Lake Borgne.
24 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 24 A. See, I don't know -- go ahead. I'm
25 Q. Okay. So a berm or a structure, even 25 sorry.
Page 201 Page 203
1 if it's below the surface of the water, will 1 Q. Let's just take across Lake Borgne,
2 have an effect on wave action that's running 2 using the example that we have. We know we got
3 perpendicular to it, correct? 3 a container ship going down here, we know we
4 MR. LIDDLE: 4 got a structure that's across the convergence
5 Objection. 5 of Lake Borgne to the Mississippi River Gulf
6 A. Well, I'm not in hydrology now. 6 Outlet.
7 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 7 A. Uh-huh.
8 Q. I understand. I'm not asking you as a 8 Q. And I'm asking you to assume that
9 hydrologist. 9 you've got wave action coming across Lake
10 A. The logical approach is that, looking 10 Borgne perpendicular to the waterway.
11 at it, that any undulation at the bottom of a 11 A. That's correct.
12 channel is going to affect the movement of 12 Q. In other words, trying to get in it.
13 water going across it. I mean, that's basic to 13 Okay? And just so we're real clear on this
14 my understanding. 14 record -- like this. (Indicating.)
15 Q. I understand. 15 A. Okay.
16 A. And I think what the whole point of 16 Q. Good. Now, even if that structure,
17 that was to look at alternatives to place the 17 which is obviously built above sea level, or
18 material, um -- to assure, first of all, you 18 above still water level, even if it is covered
19 know, that we -- if we could use it 19 with water, it's still going to have an effect
20 environmentally, also to, um -- to where it 20 on wave action, isn't it?
21 would affect the channel better. 21 MR. LIDDLE:
22 Q. Right. And what I'm getting about 22 Objection.
23 here is the comment of attenuating wave action 23 A. Well, yes, but how much depends on how
24 is attenuating meaning it's going to affect, 24 high it is and how much water you got over it.
25 reduce, the wave action effect after it passes 25 Q. Understood.
Page 202 Page 204
51 (Pages 201 to 204)

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1 A. Okay? I mean, there's a lot of things 1 large storms.

2 involved. 2 A. Okay.
3 Q. A lot of factors. 3 Q. Is that what that says?
4 A. Okay. 4 A. That's what it says.
5 Q. That's right. But it's going to have 5 Q. Okay. And if we look at this, it's
6 an effect -- 6 talking about -- well, let me just ask you
7 MR. LIDDLE: 7 rather than me interpreting. I think it says a
8 Objection. 8 berm -- it says, the Corps has a history of
9 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 9 involvement in building underwater berms
10 Q. -- isn't it? 10 beginning in the mid 1930s with a 200,000 cubic
11 A. I would think so. 11 yard berm off of Santa Barbara California in
12 Q. Okay. The next page or third page in 12 20 feet of water, continuing with berms built
13 of this document is a dredging material 13 off of the Atlantic City, New Jersey, and Long
14 underwater berm construction document that's 14 Beach, New Jersey in 1948. The Atlantic City
15 dated -- not -- it's not dated, but it's 15 berm contained approximately 3.5 million cubic
16 attached to this '91, and it's in a sequence of 16 yards placed in 38 feet of water. Subsequent
17 Bates numbers. (Indicating.) And I've 17 monitoring of all these berms for a number of
18 highlighted a particular line in there that I'd 18 years after construction showed that they
19 like for you to read into the record if you 19 remained relatively stable.
20 would, please. 20 And it goes on to say that -- a lot of
21 A. Can I just look it over? 21 stuff about berms. But the concept that this
22 Q. Absolutely. 22 document is discussing, and that is the dredge
23 A. Okay. I saw what I think I needed to 23 materials, Underwater Berm Construction,
24 see. Where it came from, I can see Glen 24 National Demonstration Project, is talking
25 Boskey 's name here. (Phonetic spelling.) 25 about the concept of putting an underwater
Page 205 Page 207
1 Q. Okay. Tell me where it came from. 1 feature in that reduces wave action on the
2 A. It came from -- 2 shoreline, correct?
5 A. The section is the environmental 5 A. Well, I mean, I didn't read the whole
6 function in the navigation section. 6 document, but -- you want me to read the whole
7 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 7 thing?
8 Q. Okay. And what does it say? The 8 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
9 yellow part. 9 Q. Well, I don't know if you have to read
10 A. Just the yellow part? 10 it or not. It's pretty much -- I think you
11 Q. Uh-huh. 11 said it was common sense and you were aware of
12 A. Okay. To get it in context, it's from 12 it. But you can read the whole thing if you
13 the National Demonstration Project, Dredge 13 want.
14 Material Underwater Berm Construction. Names 14 A. No, but, um -- I think the point I'm
15 on top are Pat Langan, L-A-N-G-A-N and T. Neil 15 trying to make is is that it depends on where
16 McLellan. 16 these berms are located and what material
17 Q. Okay. 17 they're made of.
18 A. And the part outlined in yellow, it 18 Q. Okay.
19 says, by partially reducing waves, particularly 19 A. For example, a good solid, sandy,
20 during large storms. 20 course sand berm, you know, is going to perform
21 Q. Okay. Let me get a whole sentence out 21 differently than a berm of the material that we
22 of that. 22 have off of some of our coastline which is more
23 It says, a stable berm can be 23 fluid and fluffy. So this is something that --
24 constructed to shelter adjacent coastlines by 24 you know, when you say berm, in general terms
25 partially reducing waves, particularly during 25 that's one thing, but as you get site specific
Page 206 Page 208
52 (Pages 205 to 208)

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1 they're all going to perform differently where 1 MR. LIDDLE:

2 they are. 2 Objection.
3 In California, their sand is different 3 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
4 than our stuff off of our coast. So that's why 4 Q. And that hydraulic energy in the
5 I wanted to know where this was located and why 5 channel can be caused by, um -- natural flow,
6 I wanted to read generally where this 6 in the case of a river --
7 demonstration took place. But in general, it 7 MR. LIDDLE:
8 says here -- and you mentioned Santa Barbara 8 Objection.
9 and another one off of Atlantic City, and 9 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
10 that's the only point I'm trying to make here. 10 Q. -- correct?
11 Q. I understand. 11 A. That's right.
12 A. Okay? 12 Q. Okay. And it also can be as a result
13 Q. You build underwater structures along 13 of harnessing events like ship traffic,
14 the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet -- I'm sorry. 14 correct?
15 You build underwater structures along the 15 MR. LIDDLE:
16 Mississippi River that are intended to control 16 Objection.
17 current and wave action, don't you? 17 A. I guess I'd have to take a better look
18 MR. LIDDLE: 18 at that.
20 A. Yes. 20 Q. Okay. Well, what I'm talking about is
21 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 21 structures that are intended to prevent erosion
22 Q. And those include structures that are 22 that exist in order to address ship wake or
23 submerged, true? 23 boat wake. You know of those structures as
24 MR. LIDDLE: 24 well.
25 Objection. 25 A. Well, that's basically --
Page 209 Page 211
1 A. Some of them are, yes. 1 MR. LIDDLE:

3 Q. Okay. And the reason for those is 3 A. -- your foreshore protection and
4 because if they're placed properly, then they 4 concrete revetments to prevent erosion.
5 absorb energy from the fluids around them that 5 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
6 move past them. Correct? 6 Q. That's right. Now -- all right. Just
7 MR. LIDDLE: 7 because a structure is underwater, whether it's
8 Objection. 8 a berm or a rock jetty or whatever, doesn't
9 A. In some cases. They don't necessarily 9 mean that it's lost its effectiveness in terms
10 absorb energy, they create other energy. 10 of wave action, does it?
12 Q. Okay. 12 Objection.
13 A. Okay? 13 A. Well, it -- the material that it's
14 Q. Absorb, you're right, it's not a good 14 made of and the environment it's in all affect
15 word. Divert? 15 its performance. So depending on where it is
16 A. Okay, they will constrict the channel 16 and what it's made of, you know, it may wash
17 in some respects to increase the velocity, and 17 away quickly and be ineffective, and in other
18 that increased velocity will erode the channel 18 cases it would not and it would be effective.
19 naturally. 19 So it depends.
20 Q. Right. 20 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
21 A. Okay? So. 21 Q. If it's there it's going to have an
22 Q. So you use it as a method of 22 effect on wave action, isn't it?
23 controlling the hydraulic energy in the 23 MR. LIDDLE:
24 channel. 24 Objection.
25 A. That's correct. 25 A. Here again, it depends on where it is
Page 210 Page 212
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1 and how deep it is and everything else. 1 MR. LIDDLE:

2 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 2 Is there going to be a question
3 Q. Yeah. And you know what? I 3 on our defenses? I mean, is this
4 understand your answer and I'm going to object 4 really necessary?
5 to it as being not responsive to my question. 5 MR. LAMBERT:
6 A. Well, I'm sorry for that. 6 Yeah. I wouldn't do it if it
7 Q. Listen to my question. You don't have 7 wasn't.
8 to be sorry. 8 MR. LIDDLE:
9 A. I'm trying to answer the questions so 9 Well, no, I'm going to have to.
10 that we can move on. 10 MR. LAMBERT:
11 Q. I understand. And I want to move on, 11 It's four minutes to 2:00, and if
12 too, but I mean some of these questions could 12 you want to get out of here by 2:00 --
13 be answered by, you know, a kid on a beach with 13 MR. LIDDLE:
14 a sand shovel. And those are the ones I'm 14 We only got four minutes letter.
15 asking you right now. 15 MR. LAMBERT:
16 MR. LIDDLE: 16 That's right. You're going to
17 I'm going to have to disagree 17 have to endure this for another four
18 with that. Some of these questions 18 minutes.
19 can't be answered, period. 19 MR. LIDDLE:
20 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 20 How about if he just reads one of
21 Q. The question is, and listen to it 21 these documents for four minutes and
22 carefully: 22 we call it quits? I'll read it.
23 A. Go ahead. 23 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
24 Q. Simply because a structure, whether 24 Q. Let me withdraw the last question
25 it's a sand berm or a rock dike or foreshore 25 about the Corps' defense.
Page 213 Page 215
1 protection, assuming it's there, hadn't been 1 No, no. I don't want to. One of the
2 washed away, it's there, simply because it is 2 things that the Corps has said is that the
3 underwater, under the surface of the water, 3 water is over the top of the marshland during
4 does not mean that it has no effect on wave 4 Hurricane Katrina and, therefore, whatever is
5 action that passes over it. True? 5 under the surface of the water doesn't matter.
6 MR. LIDDLE: 6 Now, just as simplistic as some of my questions
7 Objection. 7 were in terms of, isn't it true that a system
8 A. Simply because it's underwater does 8 under water is going to have an effect on a
9 not affect the wave action going over it, 9 wave -- or scratch that. Let me start this
10 that's correct. 10 question again.
11 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 11 Isn't it fair to say that just because
12 Q. Okay. Well, I don't know if that's 12 a marsh and/or a structure, meaning a rock
13 right. Simply because it's underwater does not 13 jetty or whatever, is underwater, meaning the
14 eliminate it having an effect on wave action, 14 surface of the water is over the top, that
15 does it? 15 thing underneath still has an effect on wave
16 MR. LIDDLE: 16 action that's going over it, doesn't it?
17 Objection. 17 MR. LIDDLE:
18 A. I'd say you're right, yes. 18 Objection.
19 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 19 A. I would say yes. But how
20 Q. Okay. All right, sir. You see, one 20 significant --
21 of the defenses that the Corps I'm sure -- 21 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
22 well, let me back up. One of the defenses that 22 Q. There you go.
23 the Corps of Engineers has told us about is 23 A. -- is the question.
24 that, oh, well, the surge was so deep in Lake 24 Q. I understand. Did you ever
25 Borgne that it doesn't matter. 25 participate in any surveys or studies to
Page 214 Page 216
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1 determine the effect of bank erosion from ships 1 height of water in the inner harbor canal?
2 or from any other source in the MRGO? 2 MR. LIDDLE:
4 Objection. 4 A. Now, you're talking about now --
5 A. I guess I may have. I don't recall. 5 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
6 Keep in mind that I was -- I had a lot of 6 Q. Funnel effect.
7 channels all throughout the coast, the 7 A. The funnel effect?
8 Mississippi River -- okay, we did a lot of 8 Q. From storm surge on the height of
9 surveys, a lot of studies and so forth. Okay? 9 water in the inner harbor canal.
10 So I can't recall whether or not we did 10 MR. LIDDLE:
11 something in particular on the MRGO or not. 11 Objection.
12 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 12 A. In the inner harbor canal?
13 Q. Did you ever have any involvement in 13 Q. Yeah.
14 the placement of dredge spoil on the earth berm 14 A. From what I can recollect is that, you
15 banks on the south side of the MRGO? 15 know, and I don't know about the final
16 MR. LIDDLE: 16 determination, is that based on the confluence
17 Objection. 17 of the -- just the geography, okay, that there
18 A. Well, typically that would be an 18 would be some type of funnel effect. Now, how
19 engineering division call as far as, you know, 19 much I don't know.
20 how we would place the material. It's a 20 Q. Okay.
21 technical, more or less, um -- contract 21 (Off the record.)
22 situation, whereas any of this material here 22 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
23 would be in a designated disposal area. Okay? 23 Q. Do you remember whether or not in
24 Now, as far as was I involved with the 24 those studies there was a particular emphasis
25 dredging when that took place? I may have 25 to determine the effect of the MRGO on the
Page 217 Page 219
1 been. More than likely -- when you say 1 funnel effect?

2 involved, you know, I had several different 2 MR. LIDDLE:
3 positions, so I could have been, yes. 3 Objection.
4 Q. Okay. It was typically placed on the 4 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
5 south side, right? 5 Q. The ones that you're aware of.
6 MR. LIDDLE: 6 A. The ones I'm aware of is post-Katrina.
7 Objection. 7 Q. Okay.
8 A. On the designated disposal area. 8 A. Okay? And I think all of that, not
9 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 9 just MRGO but the whole area, what influences
10 Q. Did you ever participate in any 10 the buildup of water potentially as it gets
11 surveys or studies to determine the effect of 11 closer to the city. I mean, all of that was
12 storm surge in the MRGO in the Gulf 12 consider.
13 Intracoastal Waterway or in the inner harbor 13 Q. I understand. Well, Lake Borgne is
14 canal? 14 about twelve feet deep.
15 MR. LIDDLE: 15 A. Depending on where you are.
16 Objection. 16 Q. Yeah. It could be less.
17 A. Now this is -- 17 A. Okay.
18 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 18 Q. The Mississippi River Gulf Outlet
19 Q. Pre -- 19 original design was 40 feet deep, 500 feet wide
20 A. Pre-Katrina? 20 with a 1:2 slope, and that's so many square
21 Q. -- Katrina. 21 feet of cross-section. Assuming that it went
22 A. I don't recall that. 22 from whatever the cross-section size that was
23 Q. How about post-Katrina? 23 designed in the first place to double that
24 A. I think we all were involved in that. 24 size, do you know whether or not any studies
25 Q. Is there an effect of the funnel on 25 have been done to determine the effect of that
Page 218 Page 220
55 (Pages 217 to 220)

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1 enlarged MRGO on the storm surge in the inner 1 A. -- or comments about the drawdowns as
2 harbor canal or in Reach 1 along citrus levees? 2 vessels would go by.
3 MR. LIDDLE: 3 Q. If I had a camp along the MRGO, on
4 Objection. 4 either side, and it was in the marsh, and then
5 A. I guess I didn't get down to the 5 all of a sudden with 18 feet a year plus or
6 details of that. 6 minus erosion my camp was in open water, would
7 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 7 you feel like that the Corps of Engineers had
8 Q. Okay. So you just don't know. 8 any responsibilities for that?
9 A. I'm not aware of that. 9 MR. LIDDLE:
10 Q. Do you know whether or not there were 10 Objection.
11 any studies done to address the issue of the 11 A. Not in this particular project under
12 wave action and its effect on the St. Bernard 12 the way it's authorized.
13 levee on the south side of the MRGO as a result 13 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
14 of the enlarged MRGO? 14 Q. Because the keeping the channel open
15 MR. LIDDLE: 15 at 500-foot depth was the only authorization?
16 Objection. 16 A. That was the --
17 A. That I don't recall. 17 MR. LIDDLE:
19 Q. And when I say enlarged MRGO, I'm 19 A. -- authorization that we had, that's
20 talking about the eroded MRGO. 20 correct. And I was not aware of any
21 A. I understand. I understand. 21 authorization for erosion control.
22 Q. Okay. All right. 22 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
23 Did you ever participate in any 23 Q. I understand. Thank you very much,
24 surveys or studies to determine the effect of 24 sir. Appreciate your patience.
25 various size vessels or types of vessels and 25 A. Okay. I hope that I helped the
Page 221 Page 223
1 what effect they might have, the differing 1 program.

2 sizes, on the banks of the MRGO? 2
3 MR. LIDDLE: 3
4 Objection. 4
5 A. I don't recall. I don't remember. I'm 5
6 sorry. Really. 6
7 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 7
8 Q. Oh, I understand. Listen, I'm with 8
9 you. 9
10 Do you remember when there was a 10
11 marina built along the MRGO and there was 11
12 complaints about the boats going up and down in 12
13 it? 13
14 MR. LIDDLE: 14
15 Objection. 15
17 Q. Because of the wake and the drawdown 17
18 of the large vessels? 18
19 MR. LIDDLE: 19
20 Objection. 20
21 A. I don't remember a particular marina 21
22 no in that area. You know, I mean, we had 22
23 various complaints -- 23
25 Q. Okay. I understand. 25
Page 222 Page 224
56 (Pages 221 to 224)

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1 WITNESS' CERTIFICATE
2
3 I, Gregory E. Breerwood, do hereby
4 certify that the foregoing testimony was given
5 by me, and that the transcription of said
6 testimony, with corrections and/or changes, if
7 any, is true and correct as given by me on the
8 aforementioned date.
9
10 ______________ _________________________
11 DATE SIGNED Gregory E. Breerwood
12
13 _______ Signed with corrections as noted.
14
15 _______ Signed with no corrections noted.
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25 DATE TAKEN: July 10th, 2008
Page 225
1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
2 I, JOSEPH A. FAIRBANKS, JR., CCR, RPR,
3 Certified Court Reporter in and for the State
4 of Louisiana, do hereby certify that the
5 aforementioned witness, after having been first
6 duly sworn by me to testify to the truth, did
7 testify as hereinabove set forth;
8 That said deposition was taken by me
9 in computer shorthand and thereafter
10 transcribed under my supervision, and is a true
11 and correct transcription to the best of my
12 ability and understanding.
13 I further certify that I am not of
14 counsel, nor related to counsel or the parties
15 hereto, and am in no way interested in the
16 result of said cause.
17
18
19
20
21
22
23 ____________________________________
24 JOSEPH A. FAIRBANKS, JR., CCR, RPR
25 CERTIFIED COURT REPORTER #75005
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actively 139:2 agreements 11:14,17,23 apply 9:3 94:8 132:8 133:24
actual 8:12 157:7 12:21,24 13:9 Appoint 158:9 139:3 143:13

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109:15 120:15 137:23 138:23 192:6 208:11 63:10 64:23 basically 61:23
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21:15 191:13 209:5,6 203:21 204:18 waves 105:6,17 wetlands 12:14
wait 9:16,17 wants 85:23 204:19,24 105:17 106:10 135:19 136:7
15:8 69:17 169:21 207:12,16 107:6 123:8,18 137:24 153:17
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60:22 64:10,12 215:7 94:20,24 74:18 82:14 70:12 90:4
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78:6,7,10 86:6 water 34:21 35:8 105:10 107:6,9 127:3 129:6 177:15
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81:16 83:8 X 4:1,1,6,6 yellow 206:9,10 90:19 91:8,10 1930s 207:10
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witnesses 140:10 yard 207:11 91:19 220:20 1958 69:21 90:11
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wondering 106:6 207:16 Y2 25:10 58:13 112:11 163:14
38:18 yeah 15:9,15 Y2K 25:6 1:4 56:18 57:5 1967 109:6,18
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1969 22:3 2:22 48 4:12 173:5 115:11 121:9 93 4:16
1977 22:4 21 199:7 49 173:3,6,7,16 125:2 97 24:1
198 4:25 25th 92:17 660-foot 125:11 99 23:12,13,14
1980 198:24 250 195:2 5 67 110:7 23:25
1984 138:23 2500 113:10 5 4:13 50:9 68 4:13 23:11
1985 137:23 115:22 122:25 55:23 67:15 69 163:4
141:24 142:14 2500-foot 114:14 68:6 122:14
144:14 27 135:15 158:5 7
1987 144:16 5th 137:23 7 4:5,15 55:23
154:25 159:9 3 142:14 77:4,8
199 5:1 3 4:11 42:7,11 5-gallon 184:11 7th 154:25
1990 177:10 50:7,13,24 5/21/2004 199:2 70 4:14 92:5
1991 171:23 55:23,25 5:1 122:15 135:18
173:12 199:17 157:22 173:24 500 46:10 57:23 70,000 183:16
1993 101:1,1 3rd 7:17 58:3,4,9 61:24 70003 7:2
1995 140:23 3.5 207:15 74:21 92:5 701 2:4
30s 130:4 95:7 114:9,10 70113 2:11
2 300 195:7 197:2 125:3 146:4,4 70118-3651 1:13
2 4:10 15:3,9,9 32 135:15 220:19 3:5
15:10,16,17,22 35 135:13 500-foot 58:24 70130 2:5
16:16 17:9,13 36 46:11 58:4 223:15 7400 1:12 3:4
41:5 48:7,18 61:24 74:21 500:40 58:10 77 4:15
50:25 55:15,23 92:4 95:7 504 56:1 143:24
80:7 107:14 125:1 504-525-1335 8
126:9 157:17 36-foot 196:13 2:12 8 4:16 55:23
170:24 375 79:23 504-581-1750 93:12,19
2-foot 58:5 377 79:25 2:6 80 55:23 114:5,7
2:00 215:11,12 378 79:25 80:10 504-862-2843 114:8
2:1 114:3,4 38 58:6 207:16 3:6 808 7:2,11
20 207:12 38-foot 92:8 562 67:16 82 55:25
20s 132:2 563 67:16 84 25:4,5
20th 198:24 4 58 173:3,6,7,16 85 137:5 144:15
200 195:1,3 4 4:12 48:13,14 59 173:5 855 2:10
200,000 207:10 50:9 51:3 86 25:4,5
2000 25:11 55:23,25 57:6 6 862-2316 143:24
115:21 125:4 173:23 6 4:14 55:23 87 103:11
2001 48:4 62:18 40 58:7,9,25 70:2,21,22 88 103:16
64:15 68:25 61:25 95:7 90:14 114:17 888 2:19
2002 77:2 114:3,5,7 115:9 158:9
2003 135:7 115:11 125:3 173:24 9
2004 199:1,5,7 183:1 196:14 6:1 122:15 9 4:17 55:23
20044 2:21 220:19 60 183:16 100:24 101:3
2005 14:10 40-foot 122:15 60,000 183:7 102:9
163:15 122:16 600 123:9 9th 141:24
2007 7:17 42 4:11 65 127:15 163:4 90 103:12,16
2008 1:14 225:25 45 124:15 167:12 90-483 92:20

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BREERWOOD, GREGORY

1 REPRESENTING THE PLAINTIFFS: 1 EXAMINATION INDEX

1 Exhibit 18 ...............................199 1 GREGORY E. BREERWOOD

1 STIPULATION 1 A. Deputy for project management.

1 A. Yes. 1 A. Okay. I understand.

1 record is clear. Okay? 1 this is a deposition for all purposes, meaning

1 A. I understand. 1 (Exhibit 1 was marked for

1 A. Okay. 1 A. Well, they have the DPM is the acronym

1 probably have -- 1 was December of '02 that I became chief of

1 Q. -- and before you were the head 1 A. No. It wasn't required.

1 dredging section? 1 Q. Okay. Who would they have worked with

1 correct? 1 an alternate route for deep draft vessels to

1 the turning basin right here in the Industrial 1 Objection.

1 eighties. Give or take. 1 the storm?

1 tidewater channel influence in that area, 1 A. The water levels on each.

1 waterline. In the test reach, the erosion rate 1 Should I continue?

1 the contract. That's the general idea I get 1 A. Okay. Sorry.

1 MR. LIDDLE: 1 sequence up through 504. And I tell you that

1 MR. LIDDLE: 1 1:2 slope, and the channel begins to erode, as

1 Q. Okay. 1 MR. LIDDLE:

1 back and forth. Correct? 1 the -- well, can I continue?

1 about trying to deal with bank erosion due to 1 MR. LAMBERT:

1 (Tendering.) 1 have an exact repose of 1:2 would be, in

1 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 1 This is a technical, um -- I guess design that

1 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 1 they're talking to the lawyer -- why

1 which those dimensions should be maintained. 1 MR. LIDDLE:

1 1:2 slope as defined in memo Number 1? 1 That's right.

1 communication. 1 they don't, answer my questions. Okay?

1 you actually try and exercise the claw 1 want to proceed.

1 answer. 1 A. I have to tell you that, you know,

1 MR. LIDDLE: 1 A. Should I read it? You want me to read

1 how it applies. 1 job as the head civilian at the Corps of

1 based on the reduced cost of dredging 1 towards a barrier island or whatever.

1 details of the project themselves, the 1 having an effect on wave action?

26 (Pages 101 to 104)

1 progression of the river. 1 A. I'm trying to see the context of,

27 (Pages 105 to 108)

1 (Exhibit 10 was marked for 1 Q. Yeah. During your time.

28 (Pages 109 to 112)

29 (Pages 113 to 116)

1 asked at the time the, um -- opinion of counsel 1 A. Okay.

30 (Pages 117 to 120)

31 (Pages 121 to 124)

1 Q. Wait. 1 erosion, and would be somewhere around the

32 (Pages 125 to 128)

1 the, um -- 1 A. -- some type of influence from that

33 (Pages 129 to 132)

34 (Pages 133 to 136)

1 Conservation District in Norco, Louisiana. 1 or any one like it?

35 (Pages 137 to 140)

1 Operations Division? 1 Division.

36 (Pages 141 to 144)

1 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 1 Objection.

1 over areas like this? 1 at --

37 (Pages 145 to 148)

38 (Pages 149 to 152)

1 those two letters transpired, there was another 1 dollars.

39 (Pages 153 to 156)

40 (Pages 157 to 160)

1 Q. Okay. Do you know that it also has an 1 MR. LIDDLE:

41 (Pages 161 to 164)

1 A. Um -- 1 look at this map as well. Okay? I may have my

1 system from dredge material in this area -- 1 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: