Technibble Forums - Reball vs Reflow

Technibble Forums (http://www.technibble.com/forums/index.php) - Hardware (http://www.technibble.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=12) - - Reball vs Reflow (http://www.technibble.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22373 )

ATTech

12-02-2010 08:44 PM

Reball vs Reflow So I've been working on getting into more hardware repairs, and specifically component level repairs. In doing so, I've been researching the GPU issues that many machines have that require either a reflow or reball to fix. It seems to be that the general consensus for laptops is that a reflow is a temporary fix, and could come back in a week, month or a year. As I understand it this is due to the lead-free solder used which becomes brittle overtime, cracks, and oxidizes, causing the loss of contact from the socket. That seems to be where reballing comes into play. By replacing it with lead solder, you eliminate, or at least, substantially reduce this problem. This in turn provides a better, longer lasting repair. Do I understand the situation correctly, or is there something more to it? The reason I asked, is because it seems like the xbox 360 suffers from the same fate. In researching xbox 360 repairs, the consensus seems to be more that a reball is unnecessary and won't provide any more that a proper reflow will. If the laptops and xbox's suffer from the same problem, I.e lead-free solder on the GPU's BGA, why would there be different resolutions between them? I have seen people say that reballing will provide a better fix than reflowing the xbox, but it seems to be leaning on the side of reflowing vs reballing. Is it a cost thing, as in the xbox costs a lot less than a laptop, so paying more for the reball isn't worth it? Anyone with insight care to elaborate?

MrUnknown

12-02-2010 10:49 PM

I think whoever is saying a reball on a 360 won't be any better than a reflow is a complete idiot. I did a reflow on a 360 (which I posted on here) and it has already died. The only issue is that 360s are poorly made and heat up much more than a laptop so they kill themselves much faster. My laptop isn't doing full fledged 3d graphics constantly so it won't heat up nearly as much. The airflow on 360 is horrible. I think you understand it correctly, I have no idea why whoever you're talking about says a reball isn't any better than a reflow. As for costs, it depends on how long it takes to do the reball and if you think it is worth the time. The tools to do it properly are pretty expensive. I don't own them or plan to really invest in them for that reason, you're talking $4k or so. Reflow can be done with a $200 hot air station.

ATTech
Quote:

12-02-2010 11:07 PM

Originally Posted by MrUnknown (Post 175239) I think whoever is saying a reball on a 360 won't be any better than a reflow is a complete idiot. I did a reflow on a 360 (which I posted on here) and it has already died. The only issue is that 360s are poorly made and heat up much more than a laptop so they kill themselves much faster. My laptop isn't doing full fledged 3d graphics constantly so it won't heat up nearly as much. The airflow on 360 is horrible. I think you understand it correctly, I have no idea why whoever you're talking about says a reball isn't any better than a reflow. As for costs, it depends on how long it takes to do the reball and if you think it is worth the time. The tools to do it properly are pretty expensive. I don't own them or plan to really invest in them for that reason, you're talking $4k or so. Reflow can be done with a $200 hot air station.

That was my feeling too. I figured that the people that were saying it wasn't better was because they get money for reflows and didn't want to downplay their services.

MrUnknown
Quote:

12-02-2010 11:22 PM

Originally Posted by ATTech (Post 175244)

http://www.technibble.com/forums/printthread.php?t=22373&pp=40[3/26/2013 8:38:49 AM]

Technibble Forums - Reball vs Reflow

That was my feeling too. I figured that the people that were saying it wasn't better was because they get money for reflows and didn't want to downplay their services.

That's possible. I have no proof, but a reball will also fail, but it would be more in line with a new machine. Considering a 360 can fail within a year, it may seem not worth it when Microsoft will repair it for free. If it is out of warranty, people might want to just buy a new one.

Crgky127
Quote:

12-02-2010 11:23 PM

Originally Posted by ATTech (Post 175244) That was my feeling too. I figured that the people that were saying it wasn't better was because they get money for reflows and didn't want to downplay their services.

Heh, I was just about to ask whether the people saying that were the ones offering reflows.

ATTech
Quote:

12-03-2010 05:35 PM

Originally Posted by MrUnknown (Post 175246) I have no proof, but a reball will also fail, but it would be more in line with a new machine.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Are the overheating and solder issues related? To me, it seems like the overheating issues are "fixed" (I use that term loosely) with better cooling, while the solder issues are repaired by reflowing/reballing the system. I've also heard the argument that reballing it isn't worth it, you may as well get a new machine. I think there is a misconception about reballing costs. You don't need expensive machinery, just a little bit more than what it takes to reflow it.

joydivision
What is a reflow and a reball? I don't do component level repairs :).

12-03-2010 08:24 PM

ATTech
Quote:

12-03-2010 09:00 PM

Originally Posted by joydivision (Post 175440) What is a reflow and a reball? I don't do component level repairs :).

Reflowing is the process in which the solder on the GPU is reheated until the solder liquidates, allowing it to resettle and form proper bonds with the motherboard. Reballing is the process in which the GPU is removed, and the tiny solder balls on the bottom of the graphics card are replaced with a better, lead-based solder. It's then replaced back on the motherboard and reflowed to form proper bonds with the motherboard.

MrUnknown
Quote:

12-03-2010 09:34 PM

Originally Posted by ATTech (Post 175401) I'm not sure what you mean by this. Are the overheating and solder issues related? To me, it seems like the overheating issues are "fixed" (I use that term loosely) with better cooling, while the solder issues are repaired by reflowing/reballing the system. I've also heard the argument that reballing it isn't worth it, you may as well get a new machine. I think there is a misconception about reballing costs. You don't need expensive machinery, just a little bit more than what it takes to reflow it.

I think they are related. The heat causes the board to flex which is how the solder disconnects from the board in the first place. If the board didn't heat up so much, then it wouldn't flex so much and the solder should stay

http://www.technibble.com/forums/printthread.php?t=22373&pp=40[3/26/2013 8:38:49 AM]

Technibble Forums - Reball vs Reflow

connected. There is also belief that lead-free solder can't "flex" as much, which is why it develops these issues and why leaded solder is a "fix". I think reballed machine should not have that same issue for at least as long as a new machine should have it as that part of it is brand new. Sure capacitors or something else could screw up and cause problems also. Like putting an alternator on a car, it should last quite a while but theres no reason the belt can't give out. As for the machinery, you should at least get a BGA machine that lets you see the chip and where you are putting it so you can line up the solder balls to their pad properly. Otherwise it is purely visual of where the chip is from above, which can be placed wrong. I haven't purchased one, but the last one I saw was $2,000 or so which had the cameras and infared opposed to hot air. Nevermind having to purchase the stencils and other equipment to put the balls on the chips. I didn't see me making that back really quick so I never invested in it. I have seen the cheaper BGA machines cost only a few hundred or so, but without the camera advantage, I don't see it any different than putting the chip on by hand, which I wouldn't really trust with doing BGA work. Putting it on wrong could very easily permanently damaged the chip.

ATTech
Quote:

12-03-2010 10:34 PM

Originally Posted by MrUnknown (Post 175456) I think they are related. The heat causes the board to board in the first place. If the board didn't heat up so solder should stay connected. There is also belief that why it develops these issues and why leaded solder is

flex which is how the solder disconnects from the much, then it wouldn't flex so much and the lead-free solder can't "flex" as much, which is a "fix".

I was also reading that lead-free solder is brittle and cracks under higher heat, so that coupled with the overall poor cooling design is what presents the issues.
Quote:

I think reballed machine should not have that same issue for at least as long as a new machine should have it as that part of it is brand new. Sure capacitors or something else could screw up and cause problems also. Like putting an alternator on a car, it should last quite a while but theres no reason the belt can't give out.

So it seems like reballing puts you up to the level of a new machine, but depending on the cost, it may be worth it to buy a new one because you get a warranty that will help fix other, more prevalent issues.
Quote:

As for the machinery, you should at least get a BGA machine that lets you see the chip and where you are putting it so you can line up the solder balls to their pad properly. Otherwise it is purely visual of where the chip is from above, which can be placed wrong. I haven't purchased one, but the last one I saw was $2,000 or so which had the cameras and infared opposed to hot air. Nevermind having to purchase the stencils and other equipment to put the balls on the chips. I didn't see me making that back really quick so I never invested in it. I have seen the cheaper BGA machines cost only a few hundred or so, but without the camera advantage, I don't see it any different than putting the chip on by hand, which I wouldn't really trust with doing BGA work. Putting it on wrong could very easily permanently damaged the chip.

I've watched numerous videos of people who do by lining it up by eyesight. Some say that you can afford to be a little bit off, and it will correct itself. After the solder solidifies, you can visibly look for the white outlines to ensure that they are properly lined up. It seems tedious, but entirely possible to do it by eyesight. Even if you screw up, last I check GPUs are only about $30 so you can afford to make a mistake once in a while.

BCS Head Tech

Quote:

09-07-2012 11:31 PM

Originally Posted by MrUnknown (Post 175239) I think whoever is saying a reball on a 360 won't be any better than a reflow is a complete idiot. I did a reflow on a 360 (which I posted on here) and it has already died. The only issue is that 360s are poorly made and heat up much more than a laptop so they kill themselves much faster. My laptop isn't doing full fledged 3d graphics constantly so it won't heat up nearly as much. The airflow on 360 is horrible. I think you understand it correctly, I have no idea why whoever you're talking about says a reball isn't any better than a reflow. As for costs, it depends on how long it takes to do the reball and if you think

http://www.technibble.com/forums/printthread.php?t=22373&pp=40[3/26/2013 8:38:49 AM]

Technibble Forums - Reball vs Reflow

it is worth the time. The tools to do it properly are pretty expensive. I don't own them or plan to really invest in them for that reason, you're talking $4k or so. Reflow can be done with a $200 hot air station.

I agree with your comment on the the first line. He said that because the person who told him that didn't reball and couldn't, so to get the business he told him that!

BCS Head Tech

Quote:

09-07-2012 11:53 PM

Originally Posted by ATTech (Post 175221) So I've been working on getting into more hardware repairs, and specifically component level repairs. In doing so, I've been researching the GPU issues that many machines have that require either a reflow or reball to fix. It seems to be that the general consensus for laptops is that a reflow is a temporary fix, and could come back in a week, month or a year. As I understand it this is due to the lead-free solder used which becomes brittle overtime, cracks, and oxidizes, causing the loss of contact from the socket. That seems to be where reballing comes into play. By replacing it with lead solder, you eliminate, or at least, substantially reduce this problem. This in turn provides a better, longer lasting repair. Do I understand the situation correctly, or is there something more to it? The reason I asked, is because it seems like the xbox 360 suffers from the same fate. In researching xbox 360 repairs, the consensus seems to be more that a reball is unnecessary and won't provide any more that a proper reflow will. If the laptops and xbox's suffer from the same problem, I.e lead-free solder on the GPU's BGA, why would there be different resolutions between them? I have seen people say that reballing will provide a better fix than re-flowing the xbox, but it seems to be leaning on the side of re-flowing vs re-balling. Is it a cost thing, as in the xbox costs a lot less than a laptop, so paying more for the re-ball isn't worth it? Anyone with insight care to elaborate?

All of what you said in the first paragraph is correct with one exception, but small point. It not the "contact of the socket", it is the pads that the balls are attached to they produce a cold solder joint and as a result, continuity no longer flows through the joint. Your second paragraph is correct as well, I have posted info as to why this happens in this forum here: http://www.technibble.com/forums/sho...605#post316605 The XBOX has the same issue it is just a BGA chip and due to the same issue it lifts from the board, for all the above reasons already mentioned. Oh also Re-flows are band-aid fixes period..........Don't understand your question about resolutions? If you are relating it to the type of chip which are very different. Different resolutions come from the type of chip installed on the board that Nvidia or AMD will make, just like a desktop video card there are numerous options from low end to High end. But with laptops or Xbox your stuck with whatever comes on the board in most cases. In your 3rd paragraph this is without a doubt absolutely correct, if people remember 5 years ago this didn't happen and that's because boards were still being made with lead solder. This comment " In researching xbox 360 repairs, the consensus seems to be more that a reball is unnecessary and won't provide any more that a proper reflow will. If the laptops and xbox's suffer from the same problem, I.e lead-free solder on the GPU's BGA, why would there be different resolutions between them?" is a 100% inaccurate and those who are telling you don't re-ball. Now I will say this that people have asked us for years to do them, but we don't.. the reason is because of cost & profit. We cant charge enough money to do these for what someone can buy another for due to labor. No one who employs a quality tech can repair this competently with success for under $100, which makes this repair for Xbox make no sense. Not because the difference between the two process not making a difference. Check out the link I posted above and read it, and then view the video, it is very important doing either process to know what you are doing and have several hundred practice scenarios under your belt. Don't practice on customer boards, you will pay for it in the long run. Hope this helps out.... :D

SprinterTech-WI
You do realize this thread is 2+ yrs old right? REPORTED

09-07-2012 11:57 PM

BCS Head Tech

Quote:

09-08-2012 12:11 AM

http://www.technibble.com/forums/printthread.php?t=22373&pp=40[3/26/2013 8:38:49 AM]

Technibble Forums - Reball vs Reflow

Originally Posted by SprinterTech-WI (Post 316628) You do realize this thread is 2+ yrs old right? REPORTED

Nope but I do now, I guess the information is there in case someone has the same question but thanks. Just here to help out don't use forums all that much due to work load... So I don't know that much about them. I didn't even occur to me to look at the date. I guess when your looking or searching for stuff lists just come up, and I though they were all new subjects. LOL...

Tucson Techie

11-08-2012 03:28 AM

Why would anyone want to spend the time trying to reball a $199 gaming console? They are throw-away appliances. Even a $500 HP laptop isn't worth reballing. And reflowing won't last but 6 months. I'm convinced that most of the component-level companies out there flat-out lie about the fact that they reball. They reflow, that's it. You have no way of proving otherwise. I used to outsource reflows/reballs and the lasting success rate on laptops was awful. Hence the 1 to 3 month warranties on these so-called repairs.

All times are GMT. The time now is 12:38 AM. Powered by vBulletin Copyright 2000 - 2013, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

http://www.technibble.com/forums/printthread.php?t=22373&pp=40[3/26/2013 8:38:49 AM]