Mengi V Hermitage 2102 Trial Transcript

MENGI v HERMITAGE
7 NOVEMBER 2012
PROCEEDINGS DAY 2 [Page 165]
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IN THE HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE QUEEN'S BENCH DIVISION
Claim No: HQ10D04585
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Royal Courts of Justice, Strand, London WC2A 2LL Wednesday, 7th November 2012 Before: MR. JUSTICE BEAN
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BETWEEN:
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REGINALD MENGI Claimant -andSARAH HERMITAGE Defendant ----------
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(Transcript of the Stenograph/Shorthand Notes of Marten Walsh Cherer Ltd., 1st Floor, Quality House, 6-9 Quality Court, Chancery Lane, London WC2A 1HP. Telephone No: 020 7067 2900. email - info@martenwalshcherer.com) ---------MR. RICHARD RAMPTON QC and MR. AIDAN EARDLEY (instructed by Whitman Breed) appeared for the Claimant.
MR. JAMES PRICE QC and MR. JONATHAN BARNES (instructed by Carter-Ruck) appeared for the Defendant. ---------PROCEEDINGS EVIDENCE DAY 2 24 ---------25
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MENGI-PRICE your brother as the true legal patriotic investor and the Middleton's as the criminals and wrong-doers. That is clearly right, is it not? A. No. Q. Well, you tell my Lord in what respect it is wrong. A. My Lord, I have said many times that I did not investigate it, the contents of those articles and I cannot pass a judgment until and unless I investigate those stories and hear both sides of the dispute. Q. Once again, you have not answered the question, but you have had two opportunities to do so now, so I shall move on. In none of those articles is Mr. Middleton's or Ms. Hermitage's side of the story given at all? A. My Lord, I am not the editor. I do not ---Q. Is it true, what I put to you? A. My Lord, I am not the editor; I cannot assess whether a story has been covered from both sides. Q. You can see from the story itself that it has not been, can you not? A. I just do not look at a story and judge. I would like to investigate and find out the background of the story, but as I said, as I am not responsible for content, I do not have any reason to investigate those reports. Q. On one or two occasions it is said that an attempt was made to
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REGINALD MENGI, RECALLED CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PRICE (continued) Q. Mr. Mengi, yesterday we looked at some of a series of stories in your newspapers, all of which, I think you will agree, were strongly supportive of your brother's position in that dispute? A. I do not agree. Q. You do not agree? Well, you tell my Lord in what respect you say that they were not supporting his position? A. Because I was not part of those articles and I am afraid all of them I could not assess them. Q. I am sorry, I cannot hear you. MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Sorry, could you keep your voice up? It is terribly important that I hear your evidence, although you are politely looking at counsel. It is a big court, high ceilings, so keep your voice up. A. Yes, I am sorry, my Lord. MR. PRICE: Sorry, Mr. Mengi, yes, you were just going to tell us? A. Yes, my Lord, I have not investigated those articles to find whether what was said was right or wrong because I said, my Lord, I am not Benjamin Mengi and I could not assist the correctness of the stories, whether they were biassed or not. Q. That is not what I am asking, Mr. Mengi. All I am saying is that simply looking at the stories, they relentlessly present
MENGI-PRICE contact Mr. Middleton without success, rather surprisingly without success, but he says that no attempt was ever made to contact him at all? A. My Lord, I am not responsible for those articles. Q. Well, if that is true, are you in any way shocked by the conduct of your newspapers? A. My Lord, I cannot yes or no because I have not investigated those reports. Q. You see, the conclusion that those articles lead a sensible observer to is that they are likely to have been planted by your brother? A. I do not know, my Lord. Q. Mr. Kimambo, the reporter up in Moshi, was in your brother's pocket for one reason or another and doing his bidding? A. I do not know, my Lord. Q. Did you not suspect that that might be the case? A. I had no cause to suspect because I had not investigated those articles. Q. Supposing it had occurred to you that that was what was happening, would you have intervened with your newspapers at all? A. I will never, never, never intervene. Q. Not even if you thought that your brother was planting stories in your newspapers?
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MENGI-PRICE A. I say I do not intervene in articles in papers. Q. You said in evidence to my Lord yesterday that you first learnt that Mr. Nguma was acting for Benjamin in the dispute with the Middleton's when you read the witness statements. Is that right? A. Yes, my Lord. Q. Can I ask you to take file 5.2, please? That is file 2, you want file 5.2, if you would. There are two files and that is probably it. If you go to tab D, page 316, you should have there a letter to the High Commissioner, Mr. Parham? A. 316? Q. 316. A. Thank you. Q. Do you have page 316? A. 316. Q. Is that a letter to Mr. Parham, the High Commissioner? A. Yes. Q. Just to remind you of this, the date is January 2009. Do you see? A. Yes. Q. Mr. Parham was the man who replaced Mr. Pocock as the High Commissioner? A. Yes. Q. Mr. Nguma writes to him, it is headed "Silverdale Farm", and
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MENGI-PRICE how things are going in the country and sometimes something like this crops up, but it was not a meeting specifically to discuss Silverdale. Q. Was Mr. Nguma at the meeting? A. No, because the meeting had not been arranged for Silverdale. I said it transpired that an issue was discussed. Q. So you agreed that you would provide the High Commissioner with a note on the Silverdale Farm dispute? A. I said, "I will arrange for a note to be sent to you." Otherwise, if I agreed to send the note myself, I would have signed this letter or say, "Your Excellency, I sent the note I promised." I just said, "I will arrange for somebody to send you a note. Q. Why did you think that someone in your office would be able to provide a briefing for the High Commissioner on the Silverdale Farm dispute? A. High commissioner was a friend. He wanted to do, to know about Silverdale. I did not know, so I said, "I will get someone" and I thought Nguma was sufficiently intelligent to investigate or to find out what it is all about and inform the High Commissioner, but it is not me who was going to write to the High Commissioner. I said, "I will get someone to look into it." When I said to Nguma, if he said, "I cannot", I will still try to find out whoever I thought could advise the
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MENGI-PRICE "As agreed at the meeting with Mr. Mengi...."
MENGI-PRICE High Commissioner.
3 A. Yes. 4 Q. "I am enclosing notes on the Silverdale and Mbono Farms." 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Have you seen this document? 7 A. I have seen this one, but I have not read the contents. 8 Q. You have never read the notes? 9 A. My Lord, I was asked to give his Excellency, the 10 High Commissioner, a briefing for Silverdale. As I do not 11 12 13 14
3 Q. So you spoke to Mr. Nguma about this? 4 A. I simply told Mr. Nguma I had been with the High Commissioner. 5 6 7 8 9 10
He wanted to know more about it and said, "I do not know. I have no details of Silverdale. Can you find a way of preparing some notes and send these to him?" If I had promised to look into it, then was me who would have signed this letter, saying, "Your Excellency, as promised, I enclose the notes" or whatever on Silverdale.
know anything about Silverdale, I passed a note to Mr. Nguma to write to his Excellency on the Silverdale side, but I had not, I did not see it before it went to the High Commissioner and I must say, under oath, I have never read it.
11 Q. So what did Mr. Nguma say? 12 A. Well, I am the boss, he has to find a way -- whether if he 13
knows or does not know -- to find a way ----
14 Q. Did he say whether he knew or he did not know?
15 Q. So who arranged this meeting? Did Mr. Parham ask to see you? 15 A. To me, it is an order. I said, "I want the High Commissioner 16 A. My Lord, I interact with the High Commissioner in Tanzania and 16 to get a note on Silverdale." He had to find out. 17 Q. It is inconceivable that Mr. Nguma would leave you in 17 sometimes something can crop up either over a cup of tea or 18 18 ignorance that he knew all about the Silverdale dispute, coffee. I do not necessarily have formal meetings with them 19
because of my relations with the High Commissioners.
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Mr. Mengi. responsibility to identify someone in the organisation who can help me and I did find Nguma. If he said he was not able to, he would have looked for another person. prepared them?
20 Q. Well, this was obviously a meeting at which Mr. Parham asked 21 you about the Silverdale Farm dispute? 22 A. It is a meeting, a meeting with the High Commissioner, my 23 Lord, and an issue arose, as it also arose with Pocock. I 24 25
20 A. When I have a request from anybody on an issue, I have the
would discuss the state of the country, he wants to know certain things about the country, the economy of the country,
24 Q. Did Mr. Nguma offer to show you the notes after he had
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MENGI-PRICE notes. you whether this was all right?
MENGI-PRICE out of the farms." interest in Silverdale and yesterday I said my brother does not allow me to tamper with his affairs. Mr. Nguma would not have told you?
2 A. I never even asked. I would not have wanted to read those 4 Q. So he sent them to the High Commissioner without even asking 6 A. I am under oath -- I say I did not read these notes. 7 Q. Were you offered the opportunity of reading them? 8 A. To me, he did the job I told him to do. He could not come to 9
2 Q. "The High Court in Moshi .... (reads to the words) ... moved 3 4 A. My Lord, I had no reason to know these things. I do not have 5 6
7 Q. Well, you heard my suggestion, that it is inconceivable that 8 9 A. You can say anything, but I am speaking the truth. 10 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Mr. Price, before we move on from this, it has 11
me and say ----
10 Q. How did you know that? 11 A. Sorry? 12 Q. How did you know that he had done the job that you told him to 13 15 16 17 19 20 22 23 24
various references, AN1 and so on to AN28.
12 MR. PRICE: Yes. 13 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Do we know whether there were 28 enclosures or 14
do? him, "The High Commissioner wants to know a bit about Silverdale. Can you help?" The comment of the High Commissioner ---go to Moshi and do a big investigation into all this. Is that what you want me to do?" and then I discuss with him how to do it. I expected him to use his brains and do whatever he could do to get a note to the High Commissioner.
14 A. After I told him, I assume he did the job and because I told
28 pages? but it is at page 316. My Lord, for your note, we have included two of the enclosures only. They are quite lengthy, the enclosures.
15 MR. PRICE: There were 28. We have not included them in the file, 16 17 18
18 Q. His answer would have been, "Well, hang on, I am going have to
19 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: I am not saying you should have, I just ---20 MR. PRICE: If your Lordship would like to make a note on 21
21 A. My Lord, I cannot have someone senior, ask him to do something
page 322, AN27 is on page 308 of this bundle.
22 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Yes. 23 MR. PRICE: AN28 is on page 329. Your Lordship can glance at 24 25
them; they are very short. Page 308, Mr. Nguma writes to his opposite number, "I represent the case .... (reads to the
25 Q. Well, I suggest, Mr. Mengi, that it is inconceivable that
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MENGI-PRICE Mr. Nguma would not have said to you, "Yes, of course. I know all about this because I have been acting for your brother for years." A. He did not tell me. If he had told me that, I would certainly have said no. Q. Do you think he was deliberately concealing that from you? A. I am not in his mind, but he did not tell me. Q. What do you think? A. As regards what? Q. Whether he was deliberately concealing this very significant fact from you about your own brother. A. Yesterday, I said I was disappointed he did not tell me. Q. You see, when you look at these notes, it is a full account, statement, of Mr. Benjamin Mengi's position in the dispute, is it not? A. My Lord, I said I did not see these notes before they went to the High Commissioner. Q. Just look at page 322, the last page of the notes. Paragraph 19, do you see that? "As a result of the worsening relationship ... (reads to the words) .... to mediation." Did you know that had happened? A. No. Q. You did not know that the Chief Justice had been involved? A. No, my Lord.
MENGI-PRICE words) ... received instructions." His opposite number writes back to Mr. Nguma at the IPP office, your Lordship will note at the top, 7th Floor, Haidery Plaza Building. "I write to .... (reads to the words) ... involving the litigants."
6 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Yes, thank you. 7 MR. PRICE: Can I now ask you something about the advice that you 8 9 10 11
received from Mr. Aidan Eardley over the any possible clash between the Tanzanian action against Mr. Manji and the action here against Ms. Hermitage? Do you have a copy of that advice in the witness box? If not, can one be provided?
12 A. Yes, my Lord. 13 MR PRICE: My Lord, I should say that it appears to us to be clear 14 15 16 17 18 19
on authority that the redacted sections have, in fact, had privilege waived in respect of them, but that is a matter to be dealt with later. I am not going to interrupt cross-examination to make any submission to your Lordship about that. Do you have a copy of that advice with you?
20 A. Yes, my Lord. 21 MR. PRICE: Does your Lordship have it? 22 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Yes. 23 MR. PRICE: If we go to the conclusion, which is in paragraph 24
22 ----
25 MR. RAMPTON: My Lord, may we just check that he has got the
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MENGI-PRICE redacted version? Can I just have a look at it?
3 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Yes, do you have a document in front of you? 4 A. Yes, my Lord. 5 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: For example, look at the last page. Mine has 6 7
MENGI-PRICE 2 Q. Why? 3 A. He says of the two cases, the most critical one, the important 4 one is the one in London and I should not take any chance.
1 5 Q. Who was the lawyer who gave you this advice? 6 A. Michael Ngolo. 7 Q. My Lord, I ask that we be provided with Mr. Ngolo's file note 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
paragraph 24, "redacted" and then a date. Can you just check that yours does as well?
8 A. Yes, my Lord. 9 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Thank you. 10 MR. PRICE: Just look at paragraph 22. Mr. Eardley expresses his 11
view.
12 A. My Lord, can I read it? 13 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Yes, of course. 14 A. I have read it, my Lord. 15 MR. PRICE: Now, you will see that Mr. Eardley tells you that, in 16 17 18 19 21 23 24
his view, the existence of the Tanzanian proceedings does not give rise to any argument which is likely to succeed that the English claim should be stayed or struck out on jurisdictional grounds or as an abuse of the process. lawyer in Dar es Salaam. telling you that the Tanzanian proceedings do not represent a threat the action here will be struck out?
20 A. My Lord, on receiving this letter, I passed it on to my own 22 Q. Well, just look at it. I am right, am I not, that he is
25 A. My Lord, I give the letter to my lawyer in Dar es Salaam to
of these matters, if there is one, as there should be. What reason did your Tanzanian lawyer give? Has he seen this advise? A. The reason, my Lord, is contained in the letter which my lawyer wrote to me. Q. He wrote you a letter? A. There is -- I said there is a letter. Q. From your Tanzanian lawyer to you? A. There is a letter from me to my Tanzanian lawyer instructing him to withdraw the case. Q. Quite so. Your Tanzanian lawyer would have seen ---A. My Lord, may I correct? I have two lawyers; the one who was dealing with the case and the other lawyer who was advising me. Q. Right. The one dealing with the case was Mr. Ngolo? A. Yes, but the one advising me was not Ngolo. Q. Who was it? A. Abbas.
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MENGI-PRICE advise me next step to take. Q. You took no view on the matter yourself at all? A. I took the view, after listening to my lawyer in Dar es Salaam. I am not a lawyer. Q. What he says, just reading on, "At worst, the existence of the claim against Mr. Manji may have the effect of reducing the quantum of damages in the English claim." A. My Lord, I receive a letter from a lawyer and pass it on to another lawyer to advise me. Q. Well, let us just pursue this: he advises that before he could even say that it would reduce the damages, he would need four pieces of information? A. My Lord, I received the letter and I passed the letter on to my lawyer and whatever the lawyer thought about it, he drafted a letter accordingly. Q. Are you saying that your Tanzanian lawyer drafted a letter accordingly? A. I am saying I do not know legal terminology and terms and what was in this letter in a legal way, so I have, I rely on my lawyers. Q. Did your Tanzanian lawyer advise you orally or in writing? A. Orally. Q. What did your Tanzanian lawyer advise you? A. He told me the best way is to withdraw the Tanzanian case.
MENGI-PRICE Spelt? Sorry? How do you spell it? A-B-B-A-S. We respectfully ask to be provided with Mr. Abbas' record of these matters, please. Now, Mr. Mengi, you are an intelligent man and you are not used to being led by the nose. You make decisions yourself, do you not? A. No. Q. You do not? If a lawyer tells to you do something, you did not say "why" you just do it? A. I get convinced. I do not just make decisions without discussion or without being convinced. I was convinced. Q. Let us go through this: you were convinced that that was the right thing to do? A. Yes. Q. Your English lawyer had advised you that the Tanzanian proceedings presented no threat to the English proceedings. A. There is always room for second opinion. Q. Did your Tanzanian lawyer take a different view? A. He advised me what I did. Q. Did your Tanzanian lawyer take the view that the Tanzanian proceedings represented a threat to the English proceedings? A. He said yes. Q. A. Q. A. Q.
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MENGI-PRICE 2 Q. He could not possibly have given you advice on an English law 3 and English procedure matter, could he? He had that advice
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from Mr. Eardley? 5 A. There is nothing wrong -- I am Tanzanian, so there is nothing 6 wrong to take advice from a Tanzanian lawyer also.
4 7 Q. However, a Tanzanian lawyer with any sense (and I am quite 8 sure that your Tanzanian lawyers are among the best), would be 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
extremely cautious before giving advice on English law and procedure in the face of advice from an English counsel? A. I think they took all the precaution required to give me that advice. I do not dispute their ability. Q. Why did he think that the Tanzanian proceedings represented a threat to the English proceedings? A. I did not go into why. Q. You just had no idea? A. He said in his opinion the case could affect the London case in one way or another. Q. What way? A. He said it would affect. Q. In what way? A. He said it could affect. That is what he told me. Q. In what way could it affect it? A. I am not a lawyer. Q. You do not know?
MENGI-PRICE It was a conspiracy to pay $US 50,000 to somebody for a smear campaign against him. A. My Lord, can I explain. MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Yes, please. A. My Lord, the situation, as I see, from what Mr. Price is asking me, is a situation where I am now supposed to carry the cross of Benjamin Mengi and I am not responsibile. I am not ---MR. PRICE: Would you stick to the question? A. Can you ask the question again, please? Q. What I am putting to you is that the reason that you abandoned the case against Mr. Manji was because you were advised (and you knew) that it would not stand up in court? A. My Lord, it is not true. Q. There was another reason and that is that Ms. Hermitage's solicitors in this country were pressing for documents from you relating to the Manji case on disclosure in the action here? A. That is not true, my Lord. The only one reason, I keep on repeating, why I agreed to withdraw, why I advised my lawyers to withdraw the case, is just one reason; there are not two reasons. Q. I suggest to you that that is nonsense because the advice you had from your English counsel was that you had no reason to be
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MENGI-PRICE I do not know the nitty gritty. Why could it affect it? I said I do not know. You do not know? I do not know why it would have affected it, but I take advice from my lawyer. Q. Well, I suggest to you that the reason your Tanzanian lawyer gave you any advice, if he did (and we shall see), is for two reasons: one, as he knew that your case against Mr. Manji had not a hope of standing up in court. A. That is your opinion. Q. Is it right? A. What is not right? Q. Is it right that the reason why you were, your Tanzanian lawyer thought you should throw in the towel in the Tanzanian action was that your case would not stand up in court? A. My concern was to ensure that nothing goes wrong with the London case and whatever I could do, I would make sure it is done to ensure that my London case is not affected. The Tanzanian case, as far as I was concerned, was much, much more subsidiary to the London case. Q. Why? A. The London case, it is a serious case. Q. Well, the case against Mr. Manji was nothing if not serious. A. Q. A. Q. A.
MENGI-PRICE concerned? truth. affect damages? possibility. information that he asked for in paragraph 22? Was that ever provided? affect the case. for in paragraph 22?
3 A. You can call it nonsense, but I am only here to speak the 5 Q. Your English counsel told you that it might, only might, 7 A. What do you understand with "might"? It means there is a 9 Q. However, he needed information. Did you give him the
12 A. The word "might" I am sure was sufficient, that it could 14 Q. Was counsel ever provided with the information that he asked 16 A. I do not know because my papers ---17 Q. Well, in due course we will be given the answer to that, I 18
hope.
19 A. Yes. 20 MR. RAMPTON: (Inaudible). 21 MR. PRICE: I beg your pardon? My Lord, we are, with the greatest 22 24
of respect, entitled to disclosure of that. advice on these matters, I would have been shown it.
23 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: I assume that if Mr. Eardley had given a second 25 MR. PRICE: Well, if your Lordship is proceeding on that basis.
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MENGI-PRICE listening to demands for documents which are purely speculative. different topic, Mr. Mengi. The question is whether you exercise any influence over what goes into your newspapers and whether the editors and journalists on your newspapers make a big effort to do what they think you want hem this do. Do you understand?
2 MR. RAMPTON: Of course it would have been disclosed. We sit here
MENGI-PRICE 2 Q. I suggest that if you want something done over your 3 newspapers, you would tell the Managing Director or Mr. Nguma
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5 MR. PRICE: I was asking for information. I am going to move to a
and it would be done? 5 A. No, my Lord. 6 Q. If we look at the IPP Media website, that has a very large 7 number of articles that have appeared in IPP newspapers on it,
4
11 A. I understand. 12 Q. At the outset, I asked you a little about what interests you 13 14
does it not? 9 A. I presume so, my Lord. 10 Q. At the moment, the articles that it has on it date back to 11 February 2009. Do you know whether that is because there is a
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take in the Guardian Ltd and I think you indicated that you do not even see the annual budget for the Guardian Ltd?
15 A. My Lord, can I explain? 16 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Just tell counsel whether you see the budget or 17
policy of taking down articles now? 13 A. My Lord, I do not understand what you are saying. 14 Q. Let me put the question again. At the moment, if you look at 15 the IPP website, with one exception, you do not see an article
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not.
18 A. Not necessarily, my Lord. 20
before February 2009. 17 A. My Lord, I have asked the IT expert to write about this and 18 send it to London because I am not particularly competent to
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19 MR. PRICE: What do you mean "not necessarily"? Sometimes you do, 19
know what happened, but I am given to understand there was some change and I have a little note there which I can read to
sometimes you do not?
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21 A. I do not see them. 22 Q. You do not? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Do you sometimes have to fund losses at the Guardian? 25 A. Yes, my Lord.
tell you what happened. 22 Q. What happened about what? 23 A. About the changes on the website. 24 Q. Well, I am asking you a very simple question now and if the
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answer is "I do not know" then the answer is "I do not know",
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MENGI-PRICE 2 Q. Substantial losses? 3 A. My Lord, can I explain? Perhaps it is important, my Lord, for 4 me to be understood. I beg you for one minute to explain.
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MENGI-PRICE but the question is ---A. I do not know. Q. You do not know? Well, let me tell you (and I will be corrected if I am wrong), that at the moment you do not see articles before February 2009. Can you accept that? A. My Lord, I said I am not a frequent visitor to the web. I have too many things to do in my life and I have asked they send me a note which, if my Lord allows me to read, it is there. Reginald Mengi?
My Lord, I am a very busy person, particularly on the issue of community developments. I spend an enormous amount of time in the community because after I reached the age of about 50, I thought I should give back to my society, to the community. I decided intentionally to delegate most of my work in my companies. I have good people around me and my style of management is what I will call "by exception". I do not get a routine reports of this and that and that and that. That is not my style of management. I manage by exception. So if there is something substantial, something very important and it is not normal, I will know about it, but not everything comes through me ---Q. I am not suggesting that everything does, but what I am suggesting is that you take a considerable interest in the finances of your companies, particularly when they are loss-making? A. My Lord, that is not true because I have financial experts who look into all my issues of finance. If it is exceptional, he will advice me; if it is not important, he will not tell me. I manage by exception, not by day-to-day routine.
11 Q. At the moment, on the IPP website there are 190 articles about 13 A. I have no clue. 14 Q. Does that sound as if it might be about right? 15 A. I have no clue. I do not know. I do not go around counting 16
articles.
17 Q. No, but it is an average of about one a week? 18 A. You are saying that, it is not me, so I cannot say yes when I 19 20 22
have not even checked what you are saying, what is right or wrong. that is completely right or completely wrong?
21 Q. You must have some vague impression in your mind as to whether 23 A. I do not go about reading about Reginald Mengi. 24 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: You never look at your company's website? 25 A. Very irregularly, my Lord, as I have IT managers. If
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MENGI-PRICE something goes wrong, they will let me know, but honestly I do not pick up the laptop or the iPad and start reading about Mengi. If there is something wrong, in exception, they will alert me. Q. Could I ask you to look at file 5.2? A. Yes. Q. Which, I think, is the one you have got in front of you. If you go right to the beginning of it, tab C, page 3, you see that article? A. Yes. Q. Do you remember it? A. I did not read this article on the website. Q. Did you read it in the newspaper? A. Not even IPP newspaper. Q. You have never read it before? A. I have read this, not on IPP papers. Q. Not in your newspaper? A. Not in this one, no. Q. Where have you read it? A. I was looking, someone had called me and they said there was an article on me -- someone from south Africa -- they said there was an article on me on the website and if I remember correctly, maybe from Forbes website, also. Q. Right. Well, this is what appeared in the Guardian. Will you
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MENGI-PRICE some African heroes in the business world. A. Yes. Q. Well I just ask you again, do you not think that this has stayed on the website because your editors think you might like it to stay there? A. I do not think of editors. Q. Just go to page 39. I am not starting at the beginning as there are a lot of these articles. Page 39, this is an article headed, "Fight graft in your sector, Mengi urges pharmacists. IPP executive Chairman ... (read to the words).... pharmaceutical sector." This is entirely typical of articles that appear all the time in your newspapers, is it not, Mr. Mengi? A. No. Q. No? A. I do not know typical. Typical in what way? Q. These are articles which report addresses that you have given to various schools, societies and so forth, appear all the time? A. I say could be one of the articles, but I do not determine the nature of articles. I do not get people to report on this or that because I have done that or I have said that. Q. No, but your press secretary does, does he not? A. I am not my press secretary.
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MENGI-PRICE take it from me that this is the only article on the IPP website before February 2009?
4 A. I will take it, but I do not know. 5 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: The only one that is still up now? 6 MR. PRICE: Yes. Do you know why this article alone has remained 7
on your website?
8 A. My Lord, I do not know. 9 Q. Can you guess? 10 A. No. 11 Q. No idea? 12 A. No idea at all. 13 Q. I suggest to you it is because you want it to stay up there? 14 A. Who says I communicate and give orders? I said over and over 15 17 19 20 22 23
again, I do not give orders to the editors or any journalists. greatest entrepreneurs." thing I have been (inaudible) in my life. In your opinion yes, but if in my opinion, no. "Makura said Africa's .... (reads to the words) ... the business world."
16 Q. What you see is its headline is "Mengi named among continent's 18 A. I have been named as many other things. It is not the highest
21 Q. Just opposite the lower punch hole, you will see that it says,
24 A. Sorry. 25 Q. It says here that this is the lady's attempt at showcasing
MENGI-PRICE Q. I am sorry, you know what your press secretary does and it is one of your press secretary's functions to ensure that articles of this kind appear in your newspapers? A. I do not know because ---Q. You do not know? A. I do not dictate on it. He has got his job, which he must do. Q. You see that just above the lower punch hole, do you see that? "PSI president challenged Tanzanians", so this report has about eight paragraphs on Mr. Mengi and then we get to what the president of the Pharmaceutical Scientific Institute has said. A. You know, you can, anything -- but before, you know, the background to this story, you should ask what it is all about and then you can assess. We have a problem -- can I explain? Q. Yes. A. We have a problem, my Lord, of drugs in Tanzania. The World Health Organisation reckons that Tanzania and many other countries of Africa, 50% of drugs are using fake drugs and this, people are importing these drugs, so I am trying, here I was talking about the problem. Q. I am not criticising you. I think it is very public spirited of you, but all I am pointing out is that you get reported at length in your newspaper when you make a speech and other business leaders do not.
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MENGI-PRICE 2 A. I am not the editors. I do not dictate what they should 3 write.
1 4 Q. Look at page 50. This is headed, "Be self-confident and stand 5 out, says Mengi." Have you got that? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. This is, you say, on the first paragraph, "Failure often 8 results from .... (reads to the words) ... Mengi has said." 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
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MENGI-PRICE individual, Mr. Mengi, but the point I am on at the moment is rather a different one and that is that you know quite well that your newspapers devote an enormous amount of coverage to your observations at various functions?
6 A. That is your opinion. 7 Q. Well, it is true, is it not? 8 A. That is your opinion. 9 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: As a matter of fact, Mr. Mengi, I am going to 10 11 12 13 15 16 18 19 21 22 23
This is an extremely lengthy account of a speech that you made at a primary school's tenth anniversary. Is that right? A. My Lord, yes, that is right. Q. Then if you look right in the middle of the page, in-between the two punch holes, "An outstanding businessman himself .... (reads to the words) ... for pupils." This is very typical of the way in which your newspapers report you, Mr. Mengi, is it not? A. I do not determine this style of reporting, it is the editors. Q. Why do you think the editors do it? A. I wish I knew. Q. I will tell you. A. I am not a journalist. Q. Because your press secretary tells them to. A. Your personal assessment, it is not mine. Q. Are you saying that your press secretary does not tell them do to?
ask Mr. Price to stop going through these articles because you do cover them at some length in your own witness statement, so they were referred to, so we do not need to go through them one by one. to take him through a very large number of them, but I naturally accept that if your Lordship is getting ---means make it, but Mr. Mengi does refer to a good number of these articles ---this part. Just go to page 55. This is a report of the laying of a foundation stone of a Lutheran church, is it not? Page 55.
14 MR. PRICE: No, my Lord, I will accept that. I had been planning
17 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: If there is a different point, then by all
20 MR. PRICE: I entirely understand: I will be very brief then on
24 A. I have not read it, my Lord. 25 Q. Well, you can see that the third paragraph, Mr. Sitter, the
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MENGI-PRICE 2 A. My Lord, the press secretary is employed to act as a press 3 secretary. He went to school and college to study how to be a
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MENGI-PRICE speaker of the National Assembly, made a speech when laying the foundation stone for the construction of the church. A. Yes, my Lord. Q. Then, if you look in the middle of the page, just about three paragraphs above the bottom punch hole, we have you, Executive Chairman of IPP, Reginald Mengi, emphasising the need by believers to contribute more for the construction of the church and that everybody was entitled to give to God. This is you giving a speech at the laying of a foundation stone for a Lutheran church? A. Yes. Q. There are a number of such reports in your newspapers, are there not, of you at Lutheran church functions? A. Yes, my Lord. I do not only deal, help with the Christians, I help all faiths. I build mosques, I build churches and I am not confined to one religion in my community work. Q. Your newspapers often report your speeches in extravagantly praising terms. That is right, is it not? A. My Lord, that is not right. Q. I am sorry? A. That is not true. Q. It is not true? A. Because how do I assess, I do not know, I do not do the work of editors?
press secretary. I am not a teacher of press secretaries and I do not know what they do other than what they do through their training. Q. If we go two pages further on to page 52, this is you addressing a teacher's training seminar. "Teachers in the country have been advised not to use strikes", page 52. Have you got that? A. My Lord ---Q. "Advice was given in Dar es Salaam ... (reads to the words) ... training seminar." A. Yes. Q. This is reported at considerable length in the Guardian? A. My Lord, I apologise for boring you with the same reply, but I am answering the same question over and over and over again. I say I do not decide on the content in my newspapers. Q. No, well, his Lordship has got that point. Does any other businessman get this sort of coverage in your newspapers? A. Tell me one -- that fact I do not know, but tell me one businessman in Tanzania who devotes almost all his life, all his money helping to alleviate my people from poverty, from disease. Q. Let me accept immediately that you are a very philanthropic
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MENGI-PRICE A. They do their work professionally and I respect their profession and I do not cross the line. Q. Well, I can give you innumerable examples, but let me just take you to page 77. This is the first of a series of articles extending over the next seven pages of a two-day visit that you made to a mine. Do you remember that? A. Yes. Q. If you look at page 78, just in the middle of the page, just below the top punch hole, it says, "At a different occasion .... (reads to the words) ... the voice of God." It is not untypical of the way in which you were reported in your newspapers, is it, Mr. Mengi? A. My Lord, I do not even know what this is getting to, so I am lost because if you could tell me something about this article, what is wrong, what they do not know what I did, I do not know what you are getting to. I can say again and again, I do not cross the line, I am not the editor. Q. We could go through hundreds of these stories ---MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Please do not, Mr. Price. MR. PRICE: Sorry? MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Please do not. MR. RAMPTON: We can all read. MR. PRICE: However, the point I am putting to you is that what is happening here is your editors know that they are expected to
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MENGI-PRICE of the mass of publicity that followed your press conference
and ITV programme about the sharks of corruption, is it not? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Professor Lipumba is the leader of the largest opposition 6 party in the National Assembly?
7 A. It is not true. 8 Q. You tell me what -- I quite accept correction on that; who is 9 he? 10 A. (Inaudible). 11 Q. Sorry? 12 A. (Inaudible). 13 Q. I do not understand. 14 MR. RAMPTON: That is the name of the ---15 A. If you know ---16 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: We are looking at early 2009, I think, rather 17 than now. What office, if any, did Professor Lipumba hold? 18 A. He was Head of Opposition, a party called CUF, my Lord. 19 Q. Which was the largest opposition party in Parliament. Am I 20 right? 21 A. I cannot remember whether it was or it was still not, it is 22 still Chadema, but I know currently it is Chadema, the
largest, that is the leading political party. 24 Q. Yes. Here it is described as the Civic United Front, in your 25 newspaper.
23
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MENGI-PRICE A. Yes. 3 Q. Just look at the second column of this article and the second 4 full paragraph there. Do you see that? It starts, "He 5 commended IPP Chairman, Reginald Mengi." Do you see that? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. "For taking a bold stand by naming those he referred to as 8 sharks of corruption ....(reads to the words).... little 9 seriousness in the war against corruption, Lipumba said." So, 10 your newspaper presents Prof. Lipumba as commending you for 11 your stance, is that right? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Let's see how it was reported in other newspapers. If you go 14 over the page, this is The Daily News for the same day: 15 "Lipumba slams Mengi over graft list". 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. It is a somewhat different slant on the story, is it not? Do 18 you see what it says: "Civic United Front Chairman Lipumba has 19 criticised the Chairman, Mr. Mengi, for his recent list of 20 corrupt businessmen and accused him of eroding efforts on war 21 against graft ....(reads to the words).... perpetrators of 22 corruption in the country." In the fourth column Prof. 23 Lipumba said: "It was ridiculous to single out a few 24 individuals ....(reads to the words).... needed greater 25 intervention." And so it goes on. Highly critical of you.
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MENGI-PRICE do what your press secretary tells them to do and that is to report to you at considerable length and in extravagant terms? A. My Lord, I do not know what my press secretary tells the editors, but I did not send a message to editors and I have no clue what they are going to write and I have no clue what (inaudible) take. I do not cross that line. Q. You do not get this sort of coverage in other newspapers, do you, Mr. Mengi? A. My Lord, I do not know the criteria. Editors, be it my papers or be it other papers, I do not know what criteria they take in picking up a story. Q. Again, I am going to take this very shortly, but let us have a look. If we look at page 3, so you can put file 5.2 away now Mr. Mengi and take out file 3. If you go to tab B, just so that my Lord and, indeed, you, Mr. Mengi, know what this section is, this is a section of the trial bundle which contains your solicitors' and counsels' selection of Guardian articles that we have mentioned in our statements of case, together with reports in other newspapers of the same events. You understand? A. Yes. Q. Just let us start at page 73. This is a report in the Guardian in April 2009 and the heading is "Professor Lipumba challenges the governor on anti-graft crusade." This is part
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MENGI-PRICE 2 A. My Lord, can I explain? 3 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Yes. 4 A. My Lord, what is happening here is someone thinking that I am
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responsible, or accountable, or even answerable. May I say again, my Lord, that I am not responsible, I am not accountable, neither am I answerable for the actions of my editors. The way they put the story, it is their responsibility and they are accountable. If need be you should put my editors here and ask them those questions. Q. Over the page, page 75, this is how it was reported in The African on the same day: "Lipumba joins the fray, hits at Mengi over list of sharks. He accuses him of being a racist and selling himself cheaply." It is rather different to how it was reported in The Guardian, is it not? A. My Lord, it may be different but I keep on saying, I do not cross that line. I am not responsible, I am not accountable, and I am not answerable for what the editors do. I do not know how else I can put it. Q. I understand. Let's look at how it was reported in Ynanki, page 76, on the same day. The headline is, "Lipumba. Mengi is seeking favours with President Kikwete ....(reads to the words).... simply because the latter is the sitting President." Then just below the lower punch hole, "Prof. Lipumba
MENGI-PRICE still the same, my Lord, Njovu. Q. Is there somebody working, a full-time salaried employee working for you? A. My Lord, that was the press secretary and PR, public relations officer. Q. He worked for you as an individual and not for a group of companies? A. He works for the company, my Lord. Q. For the company? A. Yes, my Lord. MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Thank you. MR. PRICE: Other newspapers quite often publish stories that are quite nice about you, particularly where you are giving large amounts of money, as you do, to good causes but they quite often publish quite critical stuff about you, do they not? A. My Lord, I do not get involved to find out whether the story is good or bad but I assume that editors, whether my papers or other papers, write what they consider is newsworthy. Q. No, of course they do but the point is, are you prepared to accept that quite often they write stuff that is quite critical of you? A. My Lord, whether they are critical or not, I take it that they have considered the articles and found them newsworthy. Q. If you look, for example, at page 70, this is in The African,
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MENGI-PRICE said, in fact by making this statement Mengi is not helping in the anti-corruption war, he is actually undermining it." Over the page, page 77, in the second paragraph, Mr. Lipumba accused you of playing a card of racism?
MENGI-PRICE this is a headline at the bottom of the page, page 70: "Minister accuses Mengi of misusing his media outlets." There was no headline like that in any of your newspapers, was
6 A. My Lord, I am not a racist. 7 Q. I am not accusing you of being a racist, Mr. Mengi. The point 8 9 10 12 13 14
is simply this. Your newspapers clearly regard it as part of their function to distort where necessary news stories so as to favour you, the proprietor; that is clear, is it not? Lord, am boring you with the same answer again, I do not cross the line. I am not responsible, I am not accountable, neither am I answerable for what my editors do.
there? 6 A. I do not know. 7 Q. You do not know. We could multiply examples of this. Look at 8 page 114, this is MTanzania, I do not know how to pronounce
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that, is it MTanzania? The headline, "Reginald Mengi runs away ....(reads to the words).... sent his two lawyers, Mr. Ngalo and Mr. Nguma, who talked to journalists on his behalf." It is not very complimentary, is it? I am not
11 A. My Lord, it is not clear. I will say again, I possibly, my
15 Q. This is all done by your press secretary on your behalf. 16 A. I do not know. 17 Q. You do not know? 18 A. No, not at all. 19 Q. Have you no suspicion as to what is going on? 20 A. How do I have suspicion when I employ professionals throughout 21
saying it is true, it is just not very complimentary. 14 A. I do not, my Lord, I do not go around looking for compliments, 15 whether they compliment or not, but I respect those editors.
16 Q. I understand. Look at page 140, Tanzania Daima. It says, 17 "Arrogance shown by prominent businessman Reginald Mengi 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
before journalists by putting openly his membership in the CCM and his efforts to assist it seems to shake up that ruling party, Tanzania Daima reports." What I am suggesting is that there is a very striking contrast between how you are reported in your own newspapers and what I suggest is that it is because it is your influence as the owner percolating down via your press secretary so that your editors and journalists know what is required.
my papers.
22 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Just tell me, who is your press secretary? 23 A. His name is Njovu, at the moment. 24 Q. Who was in, say, 2009? 25 A. Somebody called Morando, I think. It must be the same, it is
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MENGI-PRICE A. No, my Lord. That is your opinion. 3 Q. Is it right? 4 A. What is right? 5 Q. Is it right that what we see here is your influence 6 percolating down through your newspapers to the editors and 7 journalists via your press secretary and they know what you 8 want? 9 A. My Lord, I respect editor independence and whatever they write 10 I do not tamper with. 11 Q. And that the explanation for the series of articles about 12 Benjamin Mengi and the Silverdale dispute in your newspapers 13 is because the editors knew what was required and that was 14 that they should show their support to Mr. Benjamin Mengi. 15 A. My Lord, the person who can answer that is the editor and not 16 me. I do not know how many times I have said this, I do not 17 cross the line. I am not responsible, I am not accountable, 18 and I am not answerable. 19 Q. That is why what is otherwise inexplicable that the managing 20 editors of your newspapers did not reply to the letters that 21 they got from Mr. Middleton and Miss Hermitage. 22 A. How would I know that? 23 MR. RAMPTON: I believe if the case is to be made the question 24 must be put, is the question, was that on the direct 25 instructions or express instructions of Mr. Mengi or was it
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MENGI-PRICE Irish Ambassador, the Egyptian Ambassador, the Palestinian Ambassador, the Turkish Ambassador, the South African High Commissioner, the Brazilian Ambassador, the Rwandan Ambassador, the Swedish Ambassador, the Swiss Ambassador, the EU Ambassador, the Pakistan High Commissioner, and the Norwegian Ambassador. We see that all in the bundle. diplomacy. These ambassadors will come to Tanzania. After seeing the President, who they see as political, for political reasons, whenever they want to assess the situation in Tanzania as regards business invariably they all come to me. It is very common thing in Tanzania. The moment they come to Tanzania I think they are told by their colleagues or their governments, meet Mr. Mengi to assess the business side of the diplomacy. I do not invite them. They come on their own. I talk to them about the business in Tanzania.
8 A. My Lord, can I explain? There is something called economic
18 Q. With a photographer present? 19 A. I am sorry? 20 Q. With a photographer present? 21 A. What do you mean? I do not understand. 22 Q. Usually, or very often, a photograph of you and the ambassador 23
chatting together.
24 A. Is anything wrong? 25 Q. No, nothing wrong at all. I am just asking if you arranged
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MENGI-PRICE not? MR. PRICE: Did you ever instruct anyone in your newspapers that you wanted your brother's side put in this? A. Never. Q. I suggest to you that whether you instructed it or not, you knew what was happening and you were well content for that to be so. A. I am glad we are in court. I never did. MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Mr. Price, at some point in the next 10 minutes when you reach a convenient point we will take a break. MR. PRICE: Your Lordship will be pleased to hear that I shall be moving away from the topic of his newspapers in about five minutes. One feature of reports in your newspapers is lengthy reports of courtesy calls by ambassadors on you, Mr. Mengi. That is right, is it not? A. I meet ambassadors, yes. Q. So do other prominent businessmen? A. I am sorry? Q. So do other prominent businessmen. A. I am sure. I do not know but I know about myself, not about other businessmen. Q. In your newspapers, we see long reports, often more than a page, of what you and ambassadors have said. There is the
MENGI-PRICE for a photographer to be present. A. Ambassadors get appointments to see me. It is for the particular editor to decide whether it is newsworthy for our discussions to be reported because when the ambassadors go to see the President they are covered in the media. Q. When they see the President ---A. I am saying ---Q. You are not comparing yourself to the President? A. No, no, wait a moment, please. I say when they arrive almost every ambassador come to me after seeing the President but they want to assess the business side of Tanzania. I do not invite them. They ask for Mengi. The press secretary may decide to get whatever media ---Q. Your press secretary must be present at these occasions and making notes of what is said. A. I do not think my press secretary is there all the time, every meeting. Q. How is anyone able to report what goes on? A. The journalists come. Q. There are journalists present on these occasions? A. People from all of the media, not only journalists from IPP Media. Q. These reports do not appear in other newspapers. A. They do appear. Yes, they do appear.
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MENGI-PRICE Q. We shall see. Could I ask you to take bundle 5.2 and go to page 37. We see three paragraphs below the lower punch hole, there is a paragraph that says that this is a report of what you were saying, "What you are witnessing today is partly thanks to the input", do you see that? A. Which one? Q. Three paragraphs below the lower punch hole, "What you are witnessing today", do you have that? A. Yes. Q. "....is partly thanks to the influence of somebody who rose from poverty ....(reads to the words).... I am now using the media to thank people." Is media work your hobby? A. I think not my hobby. I am misquoted there. Q. You are misquoted in your own newspaper? A. They write what they want. Q. Are you using your meda to thank people? A. They write what they want. I did not say -- I was misquoted. Q. You did not say any of that? A. I cannot remember if I said that. Q. So your journalists have made this up, have they? A. Whatever, they write what they want. I did not call them and say that is wrong. MR. PRICE: My Lord, that may be a good moment. MR. JUSTICE BEAN: On that last point, Mr. Mengi, you say you
MENGI-PRICE
2 Q. You are promising to improve coverage services? 3 A. I do not mean the writing, I mean investment to expand. 4 Q. Is that your decision, then, to invest to expand? 5 A. Investment, yes, it is the board decision. 6 Q. But you are not a member of the board of The Guardian? 7 A. I am not a member of the board but the board comes to me if 8 9 11 12 13 14 15
they need some money, if there is a problem, sometimes I am approached, but at the end of the day the money comes from me. say in paragraph 53 of your witness statement, and you can turn it up if you want to but I will quote what it says, "I state that my activities are not given any preferential treatment by The Guardian's publications or by ITV's television and radio channels."
10 Q. Yes, the money does come from you, Mr. Mengi. Mr. Mengi, you
16 A. Yes. 17 Q. I have to suggest that that statement is plainly not true. 18 A. Listen, my Lord, I do not know how many times I say this, 19 20 22
because I do not direct the editors and journalists, I do not ask them for ---you are given preferential treatment.
21 Q. We are not on that point. We are on the point as to whether 23 A. I would not know. 24 Q. You say in your witness statement that you are not. Are you 25
now saying that you would not know?
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MENGI-PRICE 2 A. What I am saying, I am saying I am not given preference. 3 I would not expect preference either.
1 4 Q. That is plainly false. 5 A. What you say is false. What I say is right. 6 Q. That you are not given any preferential treatment in your
MENGI-PRICE were misquoted. How do you know? A. Because it is something I will not say, my Lord. I could have said something (inaudible) what I say but that did not come from me. I do not take media as a hobby, in the first place. Media is my business. The hobby is something which you do just for fun. Media is my business, serious business. If I had the habit of interfering with editorial I would have called them, but I would not call them because they wrote what they want to write. 12. (Short adjournment) and if you go to page 114, this is in December 2010. It is a report of an address you gave at a gala dinner organised by IPP Media. You are reported as saying, "IPP Chairman has promised to improve coverage services in his media outlets to meet audience expectations in a win-win situation with advertisers. Mengi made the pledge at a dinner gala." I suggest you are not entirely hands-off where your media are concerned, Mr. Mengi, if you are able to make that pledge. you are talking about. It is expansion of business.
newspapers? 8 A. What to write or not write is entirely in the hands of the 9 editors.
7 10 Q. That is a different point, Mr. Mengi. Are you at all familiar 11 with Mr. Eric Kamendera? 12 A. No. 13 Q. You have never met him? 14 A. Never. 15 Q. Do you know who he is? 16 A. I read from the statement that he used to work for The 17 Guardian. 18 Q. A Tanzanian journalist needs considerable courage to come here 19 from Tanzania to give evidence against you, Mr. Mengi, does he
11 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Thank you. We will break off there until 5 to 13 MR. PRICE: Thank you, my Lord. 15 MR. PRICE: I have just one more reference, if I may, file 5.2,
not? 21 A. Why? 22 Q. You are a powerful man in Tanzania? 23 A. In whose views? In your opinion?
20 24 Q. You know that what I say is true. You are a powerful man in 25 Tanzania.
24 A. This is to do, my Lord, with investment, not the sort of cover
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MENGI-PRICE 2 A. The owners of telling you whether you are powerful or not does 3 not lie with me, it lies with other people.
1 4 Q. Just answer the question, Mr. Kamendera requires a good deal 5 of courage to come here to give evidence against you. 6 A. Why? I do not think so. 7 Q. He says that your press secretary, Mr. Njovu (N-J-O-V-U) was 8 regularly in The Guardian's newsroom and he was there whenever 9 10
MENGI-PRICE 2 A. Yes, my Lord. 3 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Yes, Mr. Price. 4 MR. PRICE: Can I just ask you to look at file 3, you can put
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there was to be a story about you and the editors had to show him how the stories would appear. That is right, is it not?
11 A. My Lord, I do not know what happens. I do not know. 12 Q. So it could be right? 13 A. I do not know. 14 Q. You do not know. He says that he was told by Mr. Mauggo that 15 The Guardian would not publish negative stories about the 16
mining industry because of your interests in mining.
17 A. My Lord, that is not true. 18 Q. Did you not give an indication that you did not want negative 19 stories about mining? 20 A. My Lord, I have one of my papers there which talks about 21 mining and if you can show what is positive about that article 22 23
then I will say I have suspicion of what you say, but that is totally untrue.
24 Q. I am sure you will be shown that in re-examination. Do you 25 recall when a report about the float of Barrick Mining.
file 5.2 away and go to file 3 (at the right-hand end of your box) and go to tab D, page 183. This is a memo from the Managing Director of The Guardian to the Group Editorial Director of IPP in October 2008. It has the heading, "Publication of stories on the President ....(reads to the words).... this remains the company's official stand and all editors are obliged to observe it without fail." Where did the managing director get that idea from? A. You ask him. It is not from me. Q. Unfortunately, the managing director is not going to be a witness. I should very much like to ask him about his relationship with you, Mr. Mengi, but I have no alternative but to ask you, where did he get this idea from? A. Can I say again, this is an issue of content and I do not cross the line. This is the MD. Q. Let us look at the commonsense of it. Do you think Mr. Msharma just made this up and thought, "Oh, it would be a good idea if we never say anything hostile about the President." A. Perhaps he could have got the thing from his board of directors, but I presume the board does not tamper with the
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MENGI-PRICE Barrick Mining is quite an important world gold mining business, is it not? A. Yes. Q. The report of the float of Barrick Mining appeared in all the Tanzania newspapers but not The Guardian. That is right, is it not? A. I do not know. Q. You telephoned Mr. Mauggo and said, what is going on. A. I never never call editors on any matters of content, my Lord. Q. I suggest that you did call him and that as a result the story appeared the following day? A. My Lord, I say that is a lie. Q. Mr. Kamendera says that reporters were told never to publish anything negative about the President. Did that come from you? A. That is even a bigger lie. I have never said that. Q. Has there been a negative story about the President in one of your newspapers? A. I do not know. That is a question you can ask my editors. I do not get involved. Q. You cannot think of one? MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Sorry, can I just make a note. You do not know whether your newspapers have ever published an article critical of the President.
MENGI-PRICE ---Q. The board of directors of The Guardian might have made that decision? A. I do not know. Q. Mr. Nguma, your lawyer, and Miss Luhanga, your marketing director? A. You see, you are asking the wrong person. I say I do not cross that line. Q. The common sense of it is that this policy comes from you, Mr. Mengi? A. What is common sense? You do not (inaudible). I say it does not come from me and I do not cross that line. Q. You can be generous to journalists on The Guardian publications, can you not, Mr. Mengi? A. What for? They get their salaries. I am not paying their salaries. They get paid their salaries. What other else ---Q. You give them cash bonuses occasionally. A. That is an insult. Please. Q. What is the matter with giving them a cash bonus? A. That is an insult. Why should I give them cash? They get their salaries. Q. Why should you not give them a cash bonus? A. From my pocket, or from where? Why should I? Q. From your pocket.
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MENGI-PRICE 2 A. Why? 3 Q. Or from your bank account. 4 A. That is an insult. Please.

1 5 Q. I suggest to you that you do give cash payments to 6 journalists. 7 A. I say that, please, is an insult and I do not come to be 8 insulted. 9 Q. Is it true? 10 A. True what? 11 Q. Is it true, Mr. Mengi? 12 A. It is not true. My Lord, I say that is an insult. 13 Q. There was a scandal in Tanzania over executives of the Central 14 Bank being provided with extremely expensive residences at the
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MENGI-PRICE views on corruption in Tanzania, did you not? This is the "sharks of corruption" press conference.
4 A. I did, with pleasure. 5 Q. And if I can just ask you to look at what you said. 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. This is in file 3B, page 47. This is your press release which 8 9 10 11 12
is signed by you in which you do two things. First of all, you say, "Our country is facing a huge problem of corruption ....(reads to the words).... who are supporting the President and stopping further plunder." You were appraising the President's stand on corruption, is that right?
13 A. At that time, yes. 14 Q. Then you go on to say, "Tanzanians should know that people are 15 16 17 18 19
public expense. Do you remember that? 16 A. Which one? Tanzania is full of scandals. Can you give me the 17 details?
15 18 Q. I have just give you the details. This is the Central Bank of 19 Tanzania and there was a scandal about executives being 20 21 22 23 24 25
being accused of being corrupt do not exceed 10 and out of 10 five are being accused of being notoriously corrupt sharks." Then you name them. (Names read from document) These people are being accused of stealing billions of public money and you describe them as notoriously corrupt people.
provided with extremely luxurious residences out of the public purse, do you remember that? A. I remember it happening but I do not know all the details. Q. You directed The Guardian not to publish critical stories about that, indeed to publish a story that was sympathetic to the executives.
20 A. Yes. 21 Q. That press release was carried verbatim in The Guardian, was 22
it not?
23 A. I do not remember but I would expect it to be carried there. 24 Q. Word for word, every word of it? 25 A. Word for word, I cannot know, but I would expect it to be.
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MENGI-PRICE A. My Lord, that is a total lie, a naked lie. 3 Q. Were you sympathetic to the executives? 4 A. Why should I be sympathetic? 5 Q. Did you have borrowings from NBC, the National Banking 6 Corporation, I think it is. 7 A. When? 8 Q. During the period, this would be in about late 2009, early 9 2010. 10 A. No. 11 Q. When did you repay your borrowings? 12 A. Which loan? The only thing I know, NBC, it is supplying it 13 from (inaudible) ---14 Q. Did you never have borrowings from the NBC? 15 A. In business you borrow and pay back. There is not a single 16 businessman -- I came to ---17 Q. I am just asking you a simple question, did you have 18 borrowings from the NBC? 19 A. Yes, borrowing is a normal part of business but you borrow and 20 pay back. 21 Q. Mr. Kamendera says you would not allow a story about people 22 with borrowings from NBC to be published until after you had 23 repaid your loan. 24 A. That is a total lie. It is a naked lie. 25 Q. In April 2009 you held a press conference to publicise your
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MENGI-PRICE Q. I need not take you to it. The press conference that you had was filmed, was it not? A. Yes. Q. Who arranged for it to be filmed? A. My press secretary. Q. Your press secretary. Your press secretary then took the tape to ITV, did he not? A. I presume so. Q. You know so, do you not? A. Yes, they send someone to ITV or not, I do not know (inaudible)---Q. Either he did it himself or he told someone to do it. A. Possibly, yes. Q. With a view to it being broadcast. A. Whatever they wanted to do with the tape. Q. It was up to them, was it? A. I am sorry? Q. Was there any real doubt that when your press secretary took them the tape and asked them to broadcast it that that is exactly what they would do? A. I would expect the relevant director, the news director, to have a say in what to broadcast and not to broadcast. He or she could say no. Q. So you had no idea whether it would be broadcast or not?
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MENGI-PRICE A. Certainly not. Q. Did you have any negotiations about whether it would be broadcast? A. When I specifically said he had a special problem and would cost so much, I said yes. Q. It was going to cost so much? A. For the television, yes. He said it was a problem and it would cost so much, and it was paid. Q. Were you asked to pay for it in advance of it being broadcast? A. I say I was told it was going to be paid for and all that I remember is I told him we could either pay in cash immediately or there is an account. Q. Were you told that you would have to pay for it before or after it was broadcast? A. Before. Q. Are you sure about that? A. I am saying I am sure. Q. And it was broadcast? A. Yes, definitely. Q. Every word of it, uncut, in a special programme? A. Yes. Q. That night, the same night as the press conference, is that right? A. It was broadcast, whether it was the same night, other night,
MENGI-PRICE 2 A. You know, you make this thing very simple. I was told by the 3 (inaudible) to keep a distance from editorial, I was
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(inaudible) and that is what I practise. I stay away. There is aline dividing myself and editorial. It is their decision to decide whether to do the programme or not. It is not my decision. Q. But you knew what the decision would be? A. The only thing I was told by the press secretary when he came back, when he saw me, he said, "This must be paid for," and I said, "Yes." Q. You have personally committed yourself to balance in your media, have you not? A. Very much so, but the balancing is not my job. It is not me who makes the decisions to balance or not balance. That is the job of the editor, the editorial staff. I don't know where the balance is or that balance. I am not a professional journalist. Q. There was no balance in this programme at all; none of the people that you were accusing were given any opportunity to have their say at all, were they? A. That is your opinion. Q. But it is true, is it not? A. I say that is your opinion. Q. Mr. Mengi, you are hardly denying it. It was broadcast, all
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MENGI-PRICE it was broadcast. Q. It was broadcast on the same night and then it was broadcast again four days later. A. I presume so. Q. You know so, do you not? A. (No audible reply). Q. There had been no time for ITV to conduct the normal investigations into such a highly defamatory broadcast before they broadcast it, was there? A. I do not decide all the time, all I was told, a special problem, will be paid for, and I approved. Q. The commonsense of this, Mr. Mengi, is that you wanted it broadcast, you told your press secretary to take it along to ITV and they broadcasts it just as you would expect? A. I say I do not damper with what they decide and what time, it was entirely the decision of the editor to decide, can I put this problem on my television, yes, it should go ahead. But I did not call her, I did not say, please do a broadcast. I followed the normal channel. Q. You knew quite well that if you said, I want I broadcast, it would be. A. I am sorry? Q. You knew quite well that if you said, I want this broadcast, it would be. It was your television channel.
MENGI-PRICE 11 minutes of it, twice, and absolutely nothing ---A. I don't tell my editors, "Do this, do that." Q. That is not the question. The question is: were any of the people that you were accusing of corruption given the opportunity to put their side of the story? A. Can you please ask my editor? She will be coming here. Q. Well, you know, because you saw it. MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Mr. Mengi, are you saying that you did not see the broadcast and you have no idea what the contents were? it is not my responsibility, my Lord. I cannot go to ITV and say, "Balance this story." I don't, my Lord. about the people accused of being sharks of corruption. He was simply asking you whether there was anything from the people being accused of being sharks of corruption. It seems to me that if you saw the broadcast, you must be able to remember whether there was anything like that? I do see the other side of the story, which means there is no balance. But I am saying that is me now, but there is nothing I can do with editorial staff. I could not tell them, "Go and balance the story."
11 A. My Lord, I know what you say, but as far as balancing stories,
14 Q. Mr. Mengi, counsel was not asking you why there was nothing
20 A. As far as I remember, my Lord, seeing the programme, certainly
25 MR. PRICE: I am well aware, and my Lord is well aware, that you
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MENGI-PRICE simply wash your hands of everything that happens in your media, Mr. Mengi. A. I am not washing my hands. I am just saying the reality. Q. It is inconceivable that this would have been done for any businessman, other than the Chairman and the owner of the television station, is it not? A. My Lord, one of the people I mentioned as a shark of corruption, Mr. Rosdan Aziz, went on the national television and gave his side of the story. Q. On another television station? A. I say, what I say, he does not own a television station, but he also went and did the same things I did. Q. Well, maybe that television station thought it was only fair to give the other side a chance to reply? A. But he never went to ITV. I don't know whether he went to ITV or not. I am not very sure what happened. But he went public. Q. I will put the question once more, and perhaps you could answer it directly. It is inconceivable that this would have been done by ITV for anyone other than the Chairman and proprietor of the TV station? A. I am sure it could have been. Q. It would have been? A. It could have been done.
MENGI-PRICE 2 A. I think, looking at what happened, what they are saying, it 3 was very political. It was political. Because these people 4 were supposed to be in charge of good governance, anything
1
said against them ---6 Q. Why do you say it was against them? It was very supportive of 7 the President?
5 8 A. Take Simba, Minister Simba, she is a very, very close friend 9 of Rosdan Aziz, and there is no way she could condone anybody 10
to disclose corruption with Aziz.
11 Q. What about the Minister For Information, Culture and Support? 12 A. It is very, very political. This I can say, that is the 13 position, and governments do not want to be criticised. 14 Q. But you were not criticising the government; you were 15 supporting the government? 16 A. But if you look through my statement, my problem was inaction. 17 Q. But you speak of the great efforts of His Excellency the 18 President? 19 A. Yes, and where I fell out with the President on this matter is 20 because what he was promising to be done was not done, and my
concern was inaction. 22 Q. There is not a word of criticism of the government anywhere in 23 your press statement, Mr. Mengi?
21 24 A. I say if you look through, there will be areas where I say my 25 concern is not taking action, if you look through the press
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MENGI-PRICE Q. So, if Miss Hermitage goes along to ITV with 800 -- which I think is what you paid, is it not, approximately -- and says, "Look, I want a quarter of an hour to broadcast something that is highly defamatory," she would get that facility, would she? A. As I say, in my opinion, if she went to ITV and maybe (inaudible) the managing editor, my hope is that the managing editor would carry her aboard. I am saying, but that decision is made by the editor. Q. What do you think the chances of Miss Hermitage getting her views broadcast are? A. For me, I would think, I do not see why -- I have got professionals running the station -- quite honestly, I don't see why she would be refused. Personally, I don't see why she would be refused. That is my view -- because they would do the job according to professional standards. Q. You were greatly criticised for having broadcast this on your own television station, were you not? A. Yes. Q. By the Minister of Information, Culture and Sports? A. Yes. Q. And also by the Minister For Good Government? A. Yes. Q. They thought that it was improper use of the media?
MENGI-PRICE releases -- you may not have it -- some of my press releases or meetings. My concern in Tanzania is people took -- if there is corruption, by not taking action against the culprits; that is my problem. Q. Well, if Mr. Rampton can find any criticism, I expect he will put it to you in re-examination. A. Yes. Q. Could I just ask you to look -- have you got file 3 there, still? Go to page 126, would you? A. 123? Q. 126. A. Thank you. Q. You are responding here to the Minister's critical statement; is that right? A. Yes. Q. If you look at paragraph 2, you rather startlingly say, "I did not accuse anybody of corruption." A. Paragraph 2? Q. Yes, on page 127. A. Sorry. Q. You have in fact accused them of being notoriously corrupt, have you not? A. Yes. Q. If you look at paragraph 6, "I am very saddened" -- that is on
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MENGI-PRICE page 128. Have you got that? A. Yes. Q. "I am very saddened by the government's passiveness in allowing TBC One" -- that is another television channel? A. Government channel. Q. "....to be used by a private individual, Mr. Aziz to attack me, very improper use, is ignored, but, very surprisingly, the government is accusing me of improper use of the media that I own, when I use it to combat corruption." A. Yes. Q. It is a perfectly correct statement: you used your media to publicise your views on corruption, did you not? A. My Lord, you have to talk about (inaudible) Tanzania, once you know what it means. You can sit miles away and not understand what I am talking about. My Lord, can I explain? MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Counsel is asking quite a limited question. I am not conducting an inquiry into the corruption in Tanzania. THE WITNESS: Okay, my Lord. I am sorry, my Lord. MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Just put the question again, Mr. Price. MR. PRICE: You said here that you are concerned about being criticised for improper use of the media that you own "when I use it to combat corruption"? A. Yes.
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MENGI-PRICE anything? A. I was told. Q. Who by? A. By my advisers. Q. Your advisers told you to describe yourself as Editor in Chief and you said yes? A. I say it does not mean editing, in the sense. It is a way, what to say, you can say what is in the newspaper. But as I say, I made a mistake. I made a mistake. Q. How can you possibly make a mistake? You were obviously intending to be Editor in Chief; and why should you not be? A. I say I made a mistake. Today, I would not have used that word. Q. Well, you certainly would not today, because you are presenting a rather different picture in court. MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Do we have this document? MR. PRICE: Yes, we do, my Lord. It is in file 3, tab C, at page 169. If you look first at page 168, this goes back to 1970, and is in -- it certainly is not in one of your newspapers. It is the Tanzania's Standard, and it is signed by Julius Nyerere, who was the President at that time, was he? A. Yes. Q. And the founder of the nation? A. Yes.
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MENGI-PRICE 2 Q. This is an absolutely correct description of what you did; you 3 used your media to publicise your views, did you not?
1 4 A. To combat corruption. 5 Q. You used your media? 6 A. I used media. 7 Q. In the first issue of the Guardian -- we can turn this up if 8 necessary -- on the front page, you had an editorial about the 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1
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MENGI-PRICE 2 Q. And so you followed on; when the Guardian, on the next page, 3 was first published, issue number 1, in 1995, you did a similar sort of comment? 5 A. Yes. I admit it is a mistake. 6 Q. And you signed it as Editor in Chief. 7 A. I took wrong advice, and I see it was a mistake. What more 8 can I say?
4 9 Q. Well, I need not press the point. It is inconceivable that 10 you could have done that by mistake, Mr. Mengi? 11 A. You say inconceivable, but I say it is a mistake, for which 12 I regret it. I shouldn't have said that, but I took advice 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
standards that were going to be upheld in the Guardian, and you signed it as Editor in Chief? A. Yes. Q. There is nothing wrong about your being Editor in Chief if you wanted to be, is there? A. My Lord, when I started the paper, I asked ---Q. Well, perhaps you could answer the question? Would there be anything wrong about your deciding to be Editor in Chief? A. As the words stand, unless you know the background, as the words stand, it is not right. I feel, with hindsight, I should not have used that term, Editor in Chief. Q. At that time you were clearly intending to be Editor in Chief? A. I had no intention at all. Q. Why did you describe yourself as Editor in Chief? A. As I say, I was advised. Later, I regret it, because I was told to follow the same route as (inaudible) had done. Q. But he did not describe himself as Editor in Chief of
and I thought -- I was very new in the media. I cannot argue with that one. Q. In about April -- I am sorry, my Lord, I am moving to a different topic? MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Yes. MR. PRICE: In about April 2008 you appointed a group editorial director for all IPP publications; is that right? A. Yes. Q. Including the Guardian newspapers? A. Whichever paper (inaudible), because she came in to improve the quality of the organisation. Q. I am sorry, Mr. Mengi. You appointed a group editorial director for all IPP print media?
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MENGI-PRICE 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And her job was to oversee the editorial content of IPP print 4 publications?
1 5 A. No. It was to raise the standard. 6 Q. Well, just go to file 2, would you, at tab 2? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Do you see, this is what Mr. Nguma has to say about it. 9 Tab 2, paragraph 26. He starts by saying that she was willing 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
MENGI-PRICE 2 Q. It simply is not true that you have adopted a hands-off 3 attitude to your newspapers, certainly during the period in
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which the editorial director was reporting directly to you? 5 A. Not on matters of content. Nobody has ever, ever reported to 6 me on matters of content, and, please, I want you to believe
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that. 8 Q. Now, if we look at file 3, tab D, at page 179 -- do you have 9 179?
7 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. It should be a letter to Sakina Datoo from Mr. Nguma. Is that 12 what you have? 13 A. Yes, I have. 14 Q. This is July 2008, and it says: "IPP is pleased to offer you 15 employment as group editorial of IPP Print Media for a period 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
to be managing editor of This Day on Sunday -- I will come on to that, because that is not right -- and had approached him with the suggestion that there was no reason why the Guardian and your other print company should not put her talents to good use; such a system existed at Wananke (?) Publications. She proposed that she should be appointed to oversee the editorial content of the publications, which would have been printed by MSL. I cannot remember what MSL is. Oh, Media Solutions Limited, that is right -- and the Guardian. "Reginald Mengi told me that the Board had already agreed with the suggestion. It would only work if TGL also agreed. I discussed, and we had no objection." So, that is what she was appointed to do, to oversee the editorial content of the publications? A. Let me put right. She came in to improve editorial content, just like (inaudible), because that is what they have in their
of two years with effect from April 2008." That is what she was appointed as, is it not? A. Yes. Q. It is absolute nonsense to suggest that she was recruited to be the managing editor of a new Sunday newspaper? A. Can I explain? It is not true. What happened, when Media Solutions decided to launch a newspaper called This Day on Sunday, I was directed by the Board of Media Solutions Limited ---Q. You were directed?
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MENGI-PRICE setup.
MENGI-PRICE Board. My apology for the language. I was mandated by the Board to find someone who could become the editor of This Day on Sunday. She reported for work, but there was an infrastructure problem in setting up This Day on Sunday. But that is what she came for in the first place. When we were waiting for the infrastructure to be in position, Sakina came to me and said, "I would like to do something to improve your editorial work, on the same line as Nation Group Papers, which is done very well in Kenya and Tanzania," and she was coming from that organisation to Media Solutions Limited; and because it is going to take some time for This Day on Sunday to take off, it was her recommendation. Mr. Mengi. She was recruited as editorial director for the whole group, and this stuff about her being appointed for a new Sunday newspaper was dreamt up as an excuse for getting rid of her.
2 A. By my Board -- I am sorry about the language -- mandated by my
3 Q. She had complete editorial freedom in relation to IPP print 4 publications, did she not? 5 A. Without prejudicing the existing editorial staff or editorial 6 independence. 7 Q. She could tell them what to do; that was her job? 8 A. Later on you will find that when she tried to do so, they 9 resisted and she had to go. 10 Q. She reported to you, did she not, Mr. Mengi? 11 A. I appointed her, but she did not report to me on matters of 12 content. 13 Q. Sorry, Mr. Mengi, just let me ask the question again. You 14 appointed her and she reported to you; that is right, is it 15
not?
15 Q. Well, I have to suggest to you that that is absolute nonsense,
16 A. Yes. 17 Q. It is not true, therefore, that you have never had any 18 involvement in the running of the Guardian Newspapers Limited? 19 A. There is something -- with apology to my Lord, I say that in 20 my country the President appoints judges, but he cannot tamper 21
20 A. I say, my Lord, that is not true. 21 Q. She was already the managing editor of the leading Tanzanian 22 23
with the judges' words.
22 Q. Judges do not report to the President. 23 A. I say he will appoint them, but they do not -- certainly, in 24 my case, they do not report to me in matters of content, not 25
Sunday paper when you recruited her, the Sunday Citizen, was she not?
24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And she was the Chairperson of the Tanzanian Editors' Forum?
at all.
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MENGI-PRICE 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Which is the body that looks after the professional interests 4 in Tanzania of editors and journalists?
1 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. She is a very well known person in the media? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. She is also a person of complete integrity, is she not? 9 A. After her letter, I doubt it. 10 Q. After her letter? 11 A. Of resignation. 12 Q. It is inconceivable that she would have accepted appointment 13 for a new Sunday newspaper that had not even appeared on the
streets yet? 15 A. She went to -- she go to a place, she saw greener pastures. 16 Q. The managing editor of a newspaper, such as the new Tanzanian 17 Sunday newspaper you were contemplating, would get about two
14
and a half to three million shillings a month; is that right? 19 A. I can't remember the figures, but it would be a good salary. 20 I can't remember the figures.
18 21 Q. That would be about it -- two and a half to three million? 22 A. I can't remember figures. 23 Q. Would that be about right? 24 A. I say I cannot remember figures. 25 Q. You do not know?
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MENGI-PRICE put us on a collision path." That is the truth, is it not? A. No. Q. You were her boss; she was employed by IPP; you were the Chairman of IPP; you had recruited her; she was reporting to you. Why should you not take a different view from her on handling editorial content? A. I say not true. Q. Is she just lying now? A. I am not lying. Q. I am sorry, I am not accusing you ---MR. JUSTICE BEAN: No. Is she lying? A. I am sorry. It is not correct what she is saying. MR. PRICE: Is she misremembering? A. I don't know. Q. Or is she lying? A. All I say, it is not true. Q. If you look over the page on page 198, right in the middle of the page, do you see a paragraph that begins, "I am also well aware"? Do you see that paragraph, right in the middle of the page? A. Yes. Q. "I am also well aware of the fact that you did not like my constant refusal to publish front page editorials attacking certain personalities or refusing intervention of the managing
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MENGI-PRICE A. No. 3 Q. She was recruited at 6.2 million shillings a month? 4 A. I can't remember the figure. 5 Q. It is a cock and bull story that she was recruited to launch a 6 newspaper Sunday newspaper? 7 A. She saw a future in that paper, and, as you are saying, she 8 got a better salary. 9 Q. Let us look at her resignation letter now. We find this in 10 tab 3 again, page 196. It is in June 2009. File 3, tab D, 11 page 196. Do you have it, Mr. Mengi? 12 A. Yes, I have. Thank you. 13 Q. "May I first take this opportunity to thank you for appointing 14 me for a period of just over a year to serve IPP Media as 15 group editorial director of print media." Then she looks back 16 at the period during which she carried out that job. That is 17 what she does here, is it not? She says, if you look on 18 page 197, just below the lower punch hole, or just opposite 19 the lower punch hole we will start: "All in all, I count my 20 time at IPP as a busy but personally satisfying period when I 21 was able to achieve all these rewards, and although I was 22 bubbling with many more plans to totally revamp, modernise and 23 develop further the newspapers of the Guardian and assist in 24 the financial recovery plan too, unfortunately, our different 25 viewpoint on handling editorial content as the time moved on
1 2
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MENGI-PRICE director in editorial matters." That is the truth, is it not, Mr. Mengi? A. It is not true. Q. Is she lying there? A. I say it is not true. Q. Is she lying? A. Yes, she must be lying. Q. Well, I put it to you that she is a lady of total integrity and that she has absolutely no reason to lie in this letter, that she could simply have said that she had been appointed as the group editorial director, she did not want to be demoted to edit your new Sunday newspaper, and she wished to leave? A. That is your view, but it is not true. Q. What do you think her reason for lying might be? A. You had better ask her. I don't know. Most likely, most likely it is because she was asked to go back to the original job which I offered her. After being rejected as the group managing editor, I don't think she was happy at all. Q. And so she lied? A. I am saying she is not happy. Q. Do you know that one of your staff members, Mr. Kwayu, telephoned Sakina Datoo twice? A. How would I know? Q. To ask her whether she was going to give evidence in this
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1 2 3 A. I do not know. 4 Q. Were you listening in during one or more of those 5 conversations? 6 A. Sorry? 7 Q. Were you listening in at all on a conversation between 8 Mr. Kwayu and Miss Datoo? 9 MR. RAMPTON: Had he not better be allowed to answer the first 10 question first? 11 MR. PRICE: I think he has answered it. 12 MR. RAMPTON: He said he did not know. 13 MR. PRICE: Were you listening in on any of those conversations? 14 A. I say never, and it is inconceivable. 15 Q. You have telephoned her personally, have you not? 16 A. We are good friends. 17 Q. You have telephoned her personally? 18 A. No. When she calls me -- we are good friends. 19 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Wait for the question. 20 THE WITNESS: Sorry. MR. PRICE: You telephoned her to ask her whether she was going to 21 22 be a witness in this case and saying that you did not want her 23 to talk to us. 24 A. I can't remember if I asked her that at all. 25 Q. I suggest to you that you did?
case?
MENGI-PRICE
MENGI-PRICE Q. And he has returned, fairly recently, to Tanzania to take up a hospital appointment? A. I suppose, yes. Q. Well, you know that? A. Yes, I know that. Q. And you know the finance director of the hospital? A. Finance director? I know the -- I don't know whether -- I know Dr. Kanaba. I don't know whether he is the finance director or not, but I know Kanaba. Actually, I think Kanaba is the boss of the hospital. Q. You visited the hospital only two days after he started work there, did you not? A. I don't know when it was, but I have been to that hospital. Q. You went to that hospital as soon as you learned that he was working there? A. I never -- please don't make accusing statements. I went to hospital because I have to see a doctor. I didn't even remember him by face at that time. He came to me and said -he gave me his compliments. I didn't know he was there. I mean, why should I? Q. I suggest that you went there and spoke to him just to give a little warning that she should not be coming here to give evidence against you? A. Please, that is a total lie.
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MENGI-PRICE 2 A. I say I cannot remember, because we are good friends. 3 Q. I suggest that you telephoned her three times ---4 A. I say I cannot remember.
1 5 Q. -- to tell her that. Well, let us suppose for a moment that 6 you did. What do you think the effect might be on Miss Datoo? 7 A. I did what? I called her? 8 Q. Asking her whether she was going to be a witness and saying 9 that you did not want her speaking to us? 10 A. I cannot speak, please, what would have happened. I wouldn't 11 have done that. 12 Q. You knew what the effect of that would be very well. You are 13 a very powerful man in Tanzania, particularly in the media 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
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2 MR. RAMPTON: That is a very serious charge to make. 3 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: It is a very serious charge to make, 4 6 7 8
Mr. Rampton. When was this incident, Mr. Price? your Lordship a date. (Pause) I cannot give your Lordship a date. We may be able to find out, my Lord. We will make inquiries.
5 MR. PRICE: Recently, my Lord. I may be able to give
9 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Yes. 10 MR. PRICE: (To the witness) Well, I want it to be clear. What 11 12 13 15 16 17 18 20 22 24 25
I am suggesting to you is that your telephone calls to Miss Datoo and your appearance at the hospital were intended as a warning to her not to give evidence in this case. at the hospital. I never even knew he was there. He came and said "hello" to me. I do not even remember his face at that time. I would be very happy to know if you can confirm what you have said. here to give evidence. without a witness statement. (To the witness) Moving to a different topic, can I ask you to go to paragraph 102 of your witness statement, which
industry? A. That is your opinion. But that does not mean that she would be (inaudible). You say she is ---Q. She was frightened, was she not? A. Why be frightened? Why? Q. She was frightened that neither she nor her husband would be able to get employment again in Tanzania if she crossed you? A. That is your view, but ---Q. What do you say? A. Nothing would have happened to her. Q. Her husband is a surgeon, is he not? A. Yes.
14 A. I went to hospital to see a neurologist. I had an appointment
19 Q. Well, unfortunately, Miss Datoo does not feel able to come 21 MR. RAMPTON: That you cannot give as evidence, I am afraid, not 23 MR. PRICE: It is entirely apparent.
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MENGI-PRICE you will find in file 2, tab 1.
1 2
MENGI-PRICE tobacco with your brother's company on Silverdale Farm? Council, and we discussed this. We sent people to Moshi, and then they wrote a letter; and I am hoping before the trial ends we shall get a letter from the National Environment Council. indeed any tobacco, was grown on the Silverdale Farm in the 2003/2004 season, or after that? is what was found out by my environmental management, and I will produce those records in this trial. Council decided to stop the growing of genetically modified tobacco?
3 A. A second, please. (Pause) Yes, please. 4 Q. Tab 1, paragraph 102. Do you have it? It is on page 42 of 5
3 A. I tell you, I was the Chairman of the National Environment 4 5 6 7
your witness statement, page 42. Have you got paragraph 102?
6 A. Yes. 7 Q. "I would not and have never allowed my relationship with 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
Benjamin Mengi to compromise my principles and responsibilities. For example, in 2005 the National Environment Management Council, while under my chairmanship, intervened and stopped the growing of genetically modified tobacco which was being conducted by Benjamin Mengi through a company called Alpha Tobacco Limited at Silverdale Farm." That is the first point. The second is: "In 2007 I resigned in protest as Chairman of the Investment Committee at the National Investment Company after the company invested in a company in which Benjamin Mengi had an interest without following the proper protocols. I exhibit a copy of my letter of resignation." I want to suggest to you that both of those are untrue. Do you follow?
8 Q. Well, the fact is that no genetically modified tobacco, or 9 10
11 A. You cannot convince me that. I am saying I am not mad. That 12 13
14 Q. Well, it may be that the National Environment Management 15 16
17 A. I am saying the issue was genetically modified tobacco. 18 Q. But it had nothing to do with Silverdale Farm or your brother, 19
because they had stopped growing it two years before?
20 A. I say I will produce evidence of that. 21 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: You will produce evidence of what, Mr. Mengi -22 23
21 A. They are true. 22 Q. Can I hand to you a bundle of cross-examination material, 23 24
that genetically modified tobacco was being grown at Silverdale Farm? modified tobacco being grown at the Silverdale Farm site, and
which I shall be making brief reference to? There is one for my Lord and one for Mr. Rampton. (Same handed)
24 A. My Lord, the Council -- that means that there was genetically 25
25 MR. RAMPTON: Yes. May I insist on the proper procedure? The
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MENGI-PRICE question must be asked before the document is referred to. That is the rule. MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Can I please have a copy? Thank you. (Same Handed) MR. RAMPTON: If it goes only to credit, that is the end of the matter. MR. PRICE: Well, the question, which I have already put to you, is that it is not true that in 2005 the National Environment Management Council, under your Chairmanship, stopped the growing of genetically modified tobacco at Silverdale Farm; that is not true?
MENGI-PRICE our team went to Moshi, where the farm is, to investigate; and there will be documentation to show that. A letter was written to Silverdale -- I have not seen the document yet -to stop the growing of genetically modified tobacco. the second of them, the letter from Vector Tobacco to Mr. Middleton is September 2003. or not. I have to produce the letters for the ---up? documentation on this matter. I will produce. Silverdale Farm from your brother, and your brother was no longer involved. Is that not right? agreement. So, I don't know. no genetically modified tobacco was grown on the Silverdale Farm after the 2003 season? either mad or stupid. But I say I will produce documentation.
6 MR. PRICE: Well, you can see from these documents, if you look at
9 A. These letters, I don't know whether they have been cooked up 11 Q. Are you suggesting that Mr. Middleton has cooked these letters 13 A. I am not saying that. I am saying I will produce 15 Q. You see, by 2004 Mr. Middleton had bought the lease on
13 A. It is true. 14 Q. Right. Can I now ask you to look at tab A. You should find 15 16
two documents in there. The first of them is a letter of 2nd September 2003. Do you have that?
17 A. Yes. 18 Q. This is from Vector Tobacco. That was the American company 19 20
18 A. My Lord, I have said I have never got involved in Silverdale 20 Q. Can you not accept that Mr. Middleton says (as he will) that
for whom Benjamin Mengi was growing genetically modified tobacco under contract; is that right?
21 A. Let me just read this, please. (Pause) 22 Q. Have you read that? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. So, you see that what in fact happened was that Vector Tobacco 25
23 A. You are assuming all staff of the Environmental Council are 25 Q. Documentation to prove that genetically modified tobacco was
decided that it no longer wished to grow genetically modified
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MENGI-PRICE being grown in Silverdale Farm in 2005? A. I don't want to say more, but I will produce the documentation. MR. PRICE: Well, if I can move on then to the next one, the National Investment Company. Ah, it would be a good moment to move on to that at two o'clock, my Lord. Your Lordship will be relieved to hear that I am getting near the end. MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Yes. Would you prefer that the witness should leave this new bundle in the witness box or that he should read it, all or part of it, during the break? entirely happy for him to do so. have a look through this new bundle, which you have not seen. You cannot discuss it with anybody else, but you are welcome to look through it and refresh your memory.
MENGI-PRICE 2 Q. Well, that happened, I think, in May 2009. You do not 3 remember that?
1 4 A. As Rostam Aziz never blamed me. 5 Q. In answer to that, you produced a letter, which as I think you 6 have in this file in tab C. You produced a letter of 7 8
3rd August 2007. Does your Lordship have the National
Investment Company file that I handed up before lunch? 9 MR JUSTICE BEAN: That one, yes. 10 MR. PRICE: I am so sorry, it is a file concerning these two
11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
matters, one which I have already dealt with, the National Environment Management Council, and now I am on the National Investment Company. So in tab C, you will see a letter which you wrote to the Chairman, 3rd August 2007, saying that you wished to resign from the Chairmanship and membership because it had invested (inaudible), not recommended by the Investment Committee because the proposal was not submitted. "Intercare was and is still partly owned by my brother .... (reads to the words) ... such a business relationship." So that was that.
12 MR. PRICE: If he wishes to take it away with him, I would be 14 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Mr. Mengi, you are welcome, if you wish, to
18 THE WITNESS: Yes, my Lord. 19 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: All right. Two o'clock. 20 22 23 24 25
(Adjourned for a short time) dealt with in paragraph 102 of your witness statement; namely, the National Investment company. If we can just remind ourselves of what you said about that, you said that you resigned in 2007 as Chairman of the Investment Committee in
21 MR. PRICE: I was going to ask you about the second thing that you
21 A. Can I explain? 22 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Yes? 23 A. My Lord, it is true that the company decided to invest in my 24 25
brother's company, but the investment proposal was not (inaudible) to the committee, if there was a committee of
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MENGI-PRICE protest after the company invested in a company in which your brother had an interest without following the proper protocols. That is what you said? A. Yes. Q. Let us see what that company is. That was a public company quoted on the stock exchange? A. Yes. Q. Which raised funds from the public in Tanzania for equity investment in other businesses. Is that right? A. Yes. Q. You were the Chairman of its investment committee? A. Yes. Q. Which supervised the investment of the funds? A. Yes. Q. You, in 2009, this became a matter of controversy after Mr. Rostam Aziz. He is very much an enemy of yours, is he not? He was one of the sharks of corruption? A. I do not think of him as an enemy. Q. You do not think of him as an enemy? A. No. Q. However, he was critical of you, as I think he said, conspiring with your brother to have National Investment Company funds invested in your brother's business? A. I cannot remember that at all.
MENGI-PRICE which I was chairperson. There could be some problem with the date, a misprint or whatever, but I want to tell the flow of what happened. As the proposal did not come to the Investment Committee of the NICOL, I protested. I thought it was not ethical. They had acquired shares without being vetted by the committee. I resigned. I wrote a letter of resignation. However, when we went to the ordinary people in Tanzania from one side of the country to the other, I was one of the people who was championing to mobilise Tanzanians for the first time to raise money to invest in the initial company. So people came to this company, to show the trust they had in me. When I decided to resign from the Investment Committee, I had a lot of outcry from the people I had made to invest in this company. Therefore, I spoke to the other directors and they agreed that they will withdraw from that investment, which I was protesting. Then, upon which, I said with more time, they gave me time. In the end we compromised. I said, "I will stay on, not as Investment Committee member or Chairman. I will take up what position to oversee this change." However, then the change never came and I had to leave the Board altogether. That is what happened. So you can see from this report, I moved from the Investment Committee, I became a Board
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MENGI-PRICE member. During that time they could not withdraw from that investment, so I did quit and, basically, on ethical reasons. Thank you, my Lord. Q. So it is a little more complicated than it appears in your witness statement, Mr. Mengi? A. I do not know what I said, if it was supposed to be brief or if I was supposed to explain. Q. This investment was a very big one, was it not? It was one and a half billion Tanzanian shillings? A. Yes, and I opposed it. Q. To acquire 51% of your brother's company? A. Not only that, I found out they were trying to pay him when the company was not liquid. That is why I had to quit the Board. Q. It was quite open, was it not? If you look at tab B in your file, you have there the annual report for 2006 of the National Investment Company and that quite openly refers to the acquisition of 51% of Intercare? A. That was report, that is not 2007, that is a 2006 report. Q. Yes. This is the 2006 report which was signed, as one can see from page 24 of it, in April 2007? A. Yes. Q. It shows, we can see this on page 12 in the Chairman's statement, the acquisition of a majority shareholding in
MENGI-PRICE 2 A. I see there is, yes. 3 Q. Because prospectuses are documents which the directors take 4 the greater possible care about because they take personal
1
responsibility for it, do they not? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. One sees here that, if one looks at page iv, very near the 8 front, this is an important prospectus because it is for the
5 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
issue of 50 million ordinary shares of 125 shillings each at a price of 300 shillings a share, so it is raising a considerable amount of money? A. Yes. Q. We see on xii, near the bottom of the page, about ten lines up from the bottom of the page, that the Chairman says that NICOL was able to take 51% of Intercare. A. Yes. Q. If we look on page 6, near the bottom of the page, the members of the Investment Committee are as follows: Mr. Reginald Abraham Mengi, Chairman. So at this time you were still the chairman of the Investment Committee? A. I said I resigned on finding out that the Board had taken the decision without getting green light from my committee. I said there could be a problem with the date. Q. When do you think you resigned? A. That date could read, I resigned from Investment Committee,
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MENGI-PRICE Intercare, the second largest pharmaceutical company in Tanzania? A. That is why I protested. Q. So you knew at that stage that this investment had been made? A. Yes, all the time I was told that they were going to reverse the deal because I want them to get out of the company. Q. Well, then we have seen your letter, which is dated August 2007. Just look at tab D then. We see a prospectus. A. I said, my Lord, that there could be a problem with the date, but a problem with the what happened. Q. Just look at tab D; do you see the prospectus there? A. Yes. Q. Which is dated 6th October 2007? A. Yes. Q. Which is only two months after you had written that letter of resignation? A. I said there could be a problem with the date, 2007, which I am saying I will have to check, but that will be ---Q. Sorry, a problem with what date? A. On my letter. Q. So your letter may be wrongly dated? A. I am saying there could be a problem with the date, which I will be able to check. Q. There is a problem with the date, is there not, Mr. Mengi?
MENGI-PRICE but I said I stayed on to see the transition be effected because I had a responsibility to the people who had invested in this company, trust in me and I wanted to see things change. The company, unfortunately, ended up with no money to it and they made a meal of it and that is not something I am
proud of. 8 Q. If we look at page 20, at the bottom of the page, do you have 9 page 20?
10 A. On the corner? 11 Q. It is right at the bottom of the page. It is surrounded by a 12 little green dot, page 20. 13 A. This auditor's report? Is that the auditors' report. 14 Q. You should still be in tab D. 15 A. I am sorry, I was in tab ---16 Q. You are looking at the prospectus. 17 A. Okay. 18 Q. If you look at page 20 of that, there is a little green dot at 19
the bottom with a circle with 20 in it. Have you got page 20?
20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Bottom of the page, "Investment in Intercare .... (reads to 22 the words) ... at a cost of 2.5 billion shillings." I think 23 24
that was because some further investment was required. We are
talk about a million pounds? 25 A. Yes, and I say, my Lord, I was and I am not proud of this
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MENGI-PRICE company. They made a meal of it. As I said earlier, they have been paying my young brother money when they had borrowed money (inaudible) Bank and I have found that out and I resented it. I am not proud of it. They went against the basic ethics. Q. Well, over the page, page 21, using a discounted cash flow valuation and appraisal approach based on the company's historical finance and performance, NICOL's investment advisor's view was that the offer price was over-stated and they paid too much? proud, I was not proud of it. punch hole, it is also worth mentioning that although one of the original shareholders was related to one member of the Investment Committee, NICOL would like to confirm that the agreement was signed at arm's length? unethical.
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12 A. I agree. I know. The company was badly run and I am not 14 Q. Then if you look in the next paragraph, just above the top
19 A. That one I cannot comment, but the whole process was 21 Q. You say that you were never consulted about this? 22 A. I was never consulted. That is why I resigned. 23 Q. The question is whether you did resign, Mr. Mengi, because as 24 25
you have already indicated, there is something wrong about your letter; at least the date of it?
MENGI-PRICE here is the annual report for 2007 and you can see from page 22 that these accounts were signed in July 2008? A. Yes, I said ---Q. That is over a year after the date of ---A. Yes, I said there is a problem with the date. Q. It is a major problem with the date because we are now a year after it and you are still the chairman of the Investment Committee? A. No, I resigned from the chairmanship of the company. If you look towards the end you will find that there was a list of directors. I was one of them, but I was no longer mentioned in the committee because I had already resigned. MR. JUSTICE BEAN: I am sorry, Mr. Mengi, I am not clear about this. When do you say you resigned as chairman of the Investment Committee of NICOL? A. I think, my Lord, because the date, I think 2008. That is why, but there is a problem with the date, but I cannot confirm until I check with the documents which are available. MR. PRICE: Well, can I remind you that in your witness statement you said, "In 2007, I resigned in protest after the company invested in my brother's company." A. That is very true. That is very true. I am saying there could be something wrong with the date. I have to go back and check that date.
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MENGI-PRICE 2 A. I am saying it follows, my Lord. I was not happy with the 3 transaction. I resigned as the Investment Committee
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MENGI-PRICE 2 Q. What you are saying now is that you did not resign in protest 3 because some people urged you not to?
4 A. No, not at all. Not at all. 5 Q. Just so ---6 A. The people came after I said I was going to resign, not
chairperson. 5 Q. Let us see whether you did. Go to the next tab. 6 A. Let me just finish then, please. However, then many people 7 had invested in this company on my recommendation and
4 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
(inaudible) directors and they said they would pull out of this deal. I believed they would, but they did not (inaudible) because the deal, in my opinion, was not ethical. I saw a conflict of interests because of my brother's interest in the company. Q. So is your evidence to my Lord now that you did not, in the end, resign from NICOL? A. Please, I can give you a telephone number, NICOL now, check whether I am a director and I will be very ready to ---Q. You are no longer a director because the company is in serious trouble and has been delisted, has it not? A. Yes, but you have to check on the latest accounts with the directors whether I was a director. Q. Let us just follow it through. We have seen that you were still the chairman of the Investment Committee in October 2007, when this prospectus was issued? A. I say there is a problem with the date. Q. Yes, there is. If we go to the next tab, at tab E, do you see
before. 8 Q. You see, what we are looking at now is the 2007 annual report 9 and I have already shown you on page 22 that these accounts
7
were signed in July 2008? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. That is over a year after your letter and about two years 13 after the investment in your brother's company?
10 14 A. Can I say again, I said I protested because the Investment 15 Committee was not consulted, at least as a chairperson. 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
Sometimes I think I do not know whether this deal was a clean deal; otherwise I would have been consulted. Q. Look at page 6 of this document. Inconveniently, it has not got a number, but it is in between pages 5 and 7. A. Which? Q. You are still in tab E, I hope. It is the 2007 annual report signed in July 2008. A. Yes. Q. If you go to page 6, you will see the picture of you. A. Yes.
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MENGI-PRICE Q. You are the chairman of the Investment Committee? A. Yes. Q. You see that in green, it is underneath your photograph, "Mr. Reginald Mengi, Chairman." A. Yes. Q. That is over a year after your letter of resignation? A. I say there is something wrong with the date. Q. There is something very substantially wrong with the date. Let us look at the 2008 annual report, which is at tab F. Now these reports, as you see from page 9, were signed in March 2009? A. Yes. Q. If you look at page 2, directors who served the company for the year 2008, Mr. Reginald Mengi? A. I said there I was no longer shown as Investment Committee Chairman. I said I am on the Board to ensure that they reverse the transaction. Q. It was not exactly reversed because if you look at page 18 of this. A. That is why I left. That is why I left. Q. When did you leave? A. I left -- there is a document which I have to produce because what happened is I keep on saying again, when the deal was entered into, I was not consulted as chairman of the
1 2 4 5 6 8 9 11 12 14
MENGI-PRICE on that investment. messed up management, but I tried to save it through withdrawal of this investment in my brother's firm and they did not do that. That was my whole intention. statement, that is in 2007 you resigned in protest, is simply not true? date should not be 2007 and I have to check on records for the right dates. bust and had had to be written off in the company's books?
3 Q. Yes, I said I am not proud of that investment and it was
7 Q. So I simply put to you that what you say in your witness
10 A. I am saying the date is mixed up and I agree with you that
13 Q. You did not leave until after your brother's company had gone 15 A. I was still having hope that NICOL pull out. 16 MR. RAMPTON: Can I intervene and ask a question to your Lordship? 17 18 19 20 22 23 25
Why were these documents were never disclosed? They are produced out of Mr. Price's back pocket in court this morning. Why? This has been an issue since this witness statement was served and the exhibit with it. and, speaking for myself, I first was able to look at them last night. closeness or otherwise of Mr. Mengi's relationship with his
21 MR. PRICE: As these are documents for use in cross-examination
24 MR. RAMPTON: They plainly go to an issue in the case which is the
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MENGI-PRICE Investment Committee. Q. Sorry, the question is quite simple: when did you leave? A. I have to check my records, but it is after. Q. It is after 2008? A. Yes. Q. Look at page 18, note 4, "Long-Term investments"? A. Yes. Q. The fourth of them is investments in IPL Pharmaceuticals, 1.7 billion Tanzanian shillings? A. I have said over and over again, I stayed on as director to ensure that the Board had actually reversed the investment. It is when they refused to withdraw I moved on. Q. Well, it did not arise because, look, it says "less provision" and a provision is made in the accounts for the whole of the acquisition cost of this pharmaceutical company? A. I say that is how I moved out. Q. If you look at the bottom of the page ---A. They did not reverse the deal, as they promised. I moved out of the Board in protest because I had been told and assured that the deal would be reversed, but it is when it was not reversed I moved out. Q. Just look at the note at the bottom of the page, note B. Do you see that IFL Pharmaceuticals, or IPL Pharmaceuticals, has been placed under receivership. 100% provision has been made
MENGI-PRICE brother. That is why there is that paragraph in his witness statement. I ask the question again, why these documents were not disclosed before. It is not fair to us and it is not fair to Mr. Mengi. All this hoo-ha could have been avoided if he
had had a proper chance to investigate ---7 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Mr. Rampton, if you want to make any more 8 submissions on this, I think the witness better leave the
9
court.
10 MR. RAMPTON: No, I have said what I want to say. 11 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Right. Carry on, Mr. Price. 12 MR. PRICE: Finally, everybody will heave a sigh of relief, can I 13 ask you this: you have produced a long witness statement, 14 15
understandably, in this case, which you signed on the
24th September 2012? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. I do not want to ask you anything, as I am not allowed to, 18 about the process of taking that witness statement, but I want
19
to ask you who took it?
20 A. My lawyers in Dar es Salaam. 21 Q. Who? 22 A. One of them, Sylvia, Sylvia Mushi. 23 Q. Which company? 24 A. IPP. Sylvia, IPP. 25 Q. One of Mr. Nguma's staff?
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A. Q. A. Q. A.
MENGI-PRICE One of my staff, yes. Under Mr. Nguma? One of my staff. Did she take all these witness statements? Well, she took what I told her because it was my statement.
MENGI-RAMPTON 2 A. I said, "I would like to inform you that...." 3 Q. The English is clear, we can read it. Did you mean what you 4 said when you wrote this letter?
1 5 A. Very much so. 6 Q. Do you know what the explanation is, why your name appears as 7 a member or a chair of the Investment Committee in subsequent
use? 9 A. That I do not know at all. 10 Q. Right, thank you very much. If we may go back a bit to some 11 matters which are perhaps a little closer to the heart of this
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case, Mr. Mengi? I would like to go back to one question which arose on the first morning of your cross-examination and it is this: you were asked how often Mr. Nguma used the conference room which comes between your office and his in a building where the IPP offices are in Dar es Salaam. Your response was you were too busy to know. "I am too busy to know." Can I ask you this: how busy are you? How do you occupy your day?
21 A. As I say, my Lord, most of my time now is spent on community 22 work. My country is faced with many problems and I thought 23 24 25
one way to payback is to get involved in projects relating to education. I build schools, I finance schools. I finance projects to emancipate or to alleviate poverty by people, but
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MENGI-RAMPTON RE-EXAMINED BY MR. RAMPTON Q. The question was not put to you, Mr. Mengi -- could you just turn back. While you have got this so called cross-examination file open in front of you, could you just turn back, please, to tab C? The thing was left in the air; there is no actual suggestion put to you except that you did not resign in August 2007 from this NICOL organisation. That is a letter -- have you got that? That is your letter of the 3rd August 2007; a letter which expresses, at any rate, a wish to resign. Is it a recent forgery? A. This letter? Q. Yes. A. It is not a forgery. Q. No. So far as you are aware, you signed it? A. Yes, I did. Q. It has your signature at the bottom? A. Yes. Q. Did it have that date on it when you wrote it? A. The date here? Q. Yes, was that date, 3rd August 2007, on it when you wrote it? A. I cannot remember, but this is why I did not, got confused with the date. Q. Its terms are, if I may say so, unequivocal. Did you mean what you said in this letter?
MENGI-RAMPTON not just money, my time because it is easy to give money, if you have got it, but sometimes money is given and it ends up in the wrong hands and does not go out to the projects, so I have to get involved to talk to the people, to talk to women, poor women, and show them the way. However, it is very time-consuming. I spend my time with HIV positive people to give them hope. I eat with them, I talk to them. Money will not achieve what I can do, say with them. I say in my statement that have lunch once a year for the last 18 years with 5,000, 6,000 people, the blind, the deaf, albinos. I stay with them, spend my time, the whole day, sometimes a week, to make them feel that they are also people, human being in the society. It is not just money, it is just my company to show them they can live as human being. Some people do not see how I sit down with the dirty, disabled people, eat with them, talk to them, so I find sometimes my involvement, physical involvement, is much more than the money I give, in terms of making them feel like human beings. I spend my time with albinos. They get killed in Tanzania, like animals. People chop off their hands because they think the hand of an albino will bring them wealth, but someone has to fight for them. I fight for albinos surviving
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MENGI-RAMPTON in Tanzania, alongside my colleagues in Canada (inaudible). That one I do. I spend time on environment. There is chopping of trees every where in Tanzania. I had a personal program in Tanzania, in Kilimanjaro ---MR. JUSTICE BEAN: You are dropping your voice, Mr. Mengi. Counsel have to hear what you are saying. A. I am sorry. Yes, I have a programme in Tanzania to plant trees in Tanzania, in Kilimanjaro. The mountain was becoming naked. Under my programme, I planted 24 million trees, but you cannot just give money and say, "Plant trees". You have to go to schools, make sure that the kids know about nurseries and encourage schools to have nurseries which we send to the people to plant, but Kilimanjaro is green again but that is one man effort. So, my Lord, it is not just giving money away, it is a question of being involved with these people, people who have no hope in life. I spend time with women with fistula. Fistula is a disease which people do not seem to care about, but women with that disease feel ashamed of themselves. They spend all their time indoors because they cannot get out of their homes, but somebody has to be there; not money, but physically. So on and so on, my Lord. These people, it is not about
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MENGI-RAMPTON am crazy, why should I spend so much money. It is not because I have money to throw away, it is because I believe I came to this life empty-handed and I will leave this life empty-handed. So it is a question of belief that the money I have was not destined just for me and my family, but it is a way to send it to the people, to the needy. So people may laugh at me, "Why do you not spend more time on your business? Why do you delegate so much?" My Lord, I delegate because I want to do, to bring a change to my people. I fight corruption. This is a very risky thing, my Lord, to fight corruption in some of these countries. You stand a chance of being killed. You stand a chance of being looked at as an outcast when they talk of the rich people. I have had my house on fire under suspicious circumstances, but that does not deter me from moving on. My son, three years ago, before he left for India, they wanted to plant on him drugs. So he could end up in India and be arrested ---long answer to one question from your counsel. That is quite all right, but I think we are now going a bit off the point. much you wanted to hear of that answer. It is a long answer
21 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Mr. Mengi, I have allowed you to give a very
24 MR. RAMPTON: Yes, my Lord, I was leaving it to your Lordship how
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MENGI-RAMPTON money, it is about my time and, as I said earlier, which did not seem okay with some people, I delegate fully whenever -- I do the (inaudible) delegation, but I delegate to people who can carry out my businesses and they have not let me down, but they release me to have time to spend with these poor people. I spend my time, mobilised effort to feed the school children. Children, they do not have enough food in the morning, so they do not go to school because they are too hungry, but I make sure that we mobilise food for the school kids. They can eat, they can go to school. That has approved attendance at school. That has made children want to go to school because at least they can eat something at school. That requires time to explain to people why food for these children is important. So I find happiness in what I am doing. God blessed me with money. I want to use that money to help my people. So at the moment, if you were to ask me what is important to me, it is not of the money because God has blessed me with money. It is to use that money to help my poor people be able to live a decent life. To me, I do not intend to look at the money I leave behind or the wealth I leave behind. People do not believe, people remember me with the money I made; they will remember me with what I did with that money. Some people may think I
MENGI-RAMPTON because there is a lot in it. Mr. Mengi, you mentioned in the course of that answer the fight against corruption and this morning you were cross-examined by the press conference you gave that was actually put into the form of a tape and transmitted on ITV by special request and you paid for it. Yes? A. Yes, yes. Q. I am not interested in that in the slightest. What I would like to know is when did you start your crusade against corruption in Tanzania -- a big way, I mean? A. In a big way? Well, I have been fighting corruption for a long, long time, but in a big way I would say after the second phase, third phase Government, that was just before the year 1990, the 1990s. Q. When did you make the decision to go public, as you did on, I think it was 23rd April 2009? When did you make the decision to go public in this big way? A. My Lord, I had been going public rallies, public meetings and at this time when I went public, I was frustrated. I was frustrated, my Lord, because politicians, even then my President, was talking about corruption. They would take steps, take steps, but never took steps. That is why, what I was pressing for, is that I would like, I wanted them to take action against corrupt people. That is what pushed me,
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MENGI-RAMPTON my Lord. Q. Mr. Mengi, you obviously are, as you just explained to his Lordship, a very busy man. You have some media interest. I have two questions about your media interest. They are related in some way, but not very closely. The first is how much time do you actually spend on your newspaper and television companies? A. I have delegated almost totally. Q. Pardon? A. I have delegated. Q. Totally? A. Totally. Q. You are a director, I think, of ITV, are you not? A. Yes, my Lord, I am. Q. How often do you have board meetings? A. Sometimes it may be just say an hour or so, but normally about four times a year. Q. About four times a year. You are not a director of the Guardian at all, are you? A. I am not. MR. JUSTICE BEAN: How long has that been the case? MR. RAMPTON: He never has been, my Lord. MR. JUSTICE BEAN: You never have been? A. I never have been. I just launch it, my Lord, and leave it be
MENGI-RAMPTON 2 MR. PRICE: It is page 25 of the bundle. 3 MR. RAMPTON: Page 25 of the bundle, yes. It is the first 4 document in the bundle and that is what you would expect.
1
Page 25. 6 A. Yes, thank you. 7 Q. Bottom of the page, paragraph 54. This is your statement, 8 your evidence: "I do not communicate .... (reads to the
5 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
words) ... which he or she thinks are newsworthy." The "he or she" in that sentence is the press secretary. Is that right? A. Yes. Q. Is that true, Mr. Mengi? Does your press secretary tell other people besides the IPP media about what you are going to do? A. Yes, they tell other media, yes. Q. Or what you have done. To try and get publicity for those events, those speeches by you? A. I do not tell him to get publicity. I give him my, I tell him my problem and he decides. Q. We will finish the end of the paragraph: "No media is singled out .... (reads to the words) ... since 1998." A. Yes, my Lord. Q. So he was the press secretary during the Silverdale dispute time and all that kind of thing? A. Yes. Q. How often do you see him?
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MENGI-RAMPTON 2 A. As I said, that was his sphere and sometimes in the month I 3 see him once or twice or sometimes not at all.
1 4 Q. Yes, depends on what is going on. Who makes the approach? 5 Does he approach you or do you summon him? 6 A. Normally he calls me and asks me, "Do you have any public 7 engagement?" I say yes and he wants to know the details. 8 Q. During the course of the Silverdale Farm incident, during 9 2005, 2006, 2007, do you remember whether you discussed that
MENGI-RAMPTON run by professionals. MR. RAMPTON: I should know the answer to this, my Lord, but I will ask it anyway: who are the directors of IPP Ltd? A. IPP, Mrs Mengi, my daughter and I. Q. Yes. How often do you meet as a Board of Directors? A. Normally about three or four times a year. Q. Yes, thank you. The related questions, there are two related questions: you have a press secretary? A. Yes. Q. He is called Abdul Njobo? A. Yes. Q. Could you get out the file which has got "2" on it, please? Turn to paragraph 54. It is your witness statement, the first document in that file. Paragraph 54, the file number I know not, but internal page 25 of the document. Do you have paragraph 54? A. 54? I am sorry, yes. Q. You have written or, rather, somebody on your behalf: "I do not communicate with .... (reads to the words) ... about my activities...." Do you have it? 54, at the bottom of page ---A. Paragraph or the page, please. Q. The internal page at the bottom is 25. I have 214 written in handwriting at the bottom of mine, but I think that is wrong.
topic with him? 11 A. No, I do not. 12 Q. You told Mr. Price earlier today that you actually were not 13 much interested in the Silverdale Farm dispute. Do you
10
remember saying that? 15 A. Yes, I did. 16 Q. Coming back to the heart of the matter, which was the meeting 17 on 13th December, very shortly, in a moment, but what I want
14 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
to ask you is this -- could you put that file away, please, Mr. Mengi and get out the one marked, I think it is, is it file 2 or 3. The one marked 3. I have to say, Mr. Mengi, I am not sure about you, but I am not entirely clear what the allegation about these articles is. It is perhaps something like this: your newspapers made a policy of -- prompted by your brother, Ben, and assisted by you, made a policy of publishing articles about the dispute
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MENGI-RAMPTON that were damaging and adverse and unfair to the Middleton's. Is that how you took it? A. Never. Q. What I want to know is among these articles -- I am afraid we will just have to look at them briefly as we go through because these are the articles which the defendant says constituted the campaign of defamation against them in your newspapers. I want to ask you, in each case, whether you read it at the time and, if so, with what kind of care. Can I, first of all, the first one on the list -- these are all, my Lord, taken from paragraph 6-11 of the amended defence. This is page 6. These are the articles that are alleged to constitute the campaign by Mr. Mengi against the Middleton's. This Mr. Mengi, I mean. A. Yes. Q. The first one is on page 6. That is an article . Just glance at it. Do you think you read this at the time? A. No, my Lord. I said sometimes I do not read all the papers. Even every week or two, I do not read the papers. Whenever I have free time, there are newspapers I read, but not all of them. Q. Perhaps I can ask you general question? We will go through these very quickly and we have to do that, I am afraid, if you are supposed to be taking a malign interest in this campaign.
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MENGI-RAMPTON much time to read papers. I just do not have the time. Q. Counting both Swahili and English language newspapers, and excluding your newspapers, I think there are at least 10 daily newspapers in Tanzania, are there not? A. Yes, what are called mainstream newspapers, I think there is The Guardian, The Daily News, (which is government), The African owned by Mr. Aziz. Q. The Daily News is government? A. It is government, yes. Q. Then The Citizen is owned by the Aga Khan, I think? A. Yes, my Lord. Q. My question is really this, Mr. Mengi, are you or are you not an avid reader of newspapers? A. What? Q. An avid reader of newspapers, a keen reader of newspapers? A. No, not at all. Q. We will just go back, if we may, to this final three and we will flick through it, if you do not mind. At page 19, sorry, that is the date of the article, on page 8, there is an article from the The Guardian dated 19th January 2006. There is a transcript of it on the next page. Never mind that, just have a look at that article and tell me whether you remember whether you read that or not, at the time? A. I cannot remember if I read the article, my Lord.
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MENGI-RAMPTON 2 Q. No. The next one is an article in The African. I think the 3 next one is 2nd February, that is on page 12. This is
1
MENGI-RAMPTON How much time do you take to read your newspapers, in a general sense, in the course of an ordinary day? an hour, but I have to look through -- in the morning, about ten papers come in my house and there is no way I can read all of them and I just look through and if there is something of interest, I read. they have I have forgotten, how many newspapers are within your ownership? Can you just list them?
4 A. Sometimes I read just headline and possibly I may spend half
Nipashe, only, apparently. 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. This looks to me as it has probably taken off a website. 7 Nipashe is printed as well, is it not?
4 8 A. Yes. 9 MR. PRICE: This is a translation. 10 MR. RAMPTON: All right, it is a translation. I do not know by 11 whom. Maybe it is one of those automatic translations. It is 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 24 25
9 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: I do not think anybody has asked you, or if
12 A. Yes, list them? 13 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Well, just tell me and I will write them down? 14 A. The Guardian, Nipashe, Sema Usikike, Taifa Letu, This Day, 15
(inaudible).
16 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Six? 17 A. Six, yes, my Lord. No, eight because there is Nipashe on 18 19
Sunday and the Guardian on Sunday, but they have different editors.
20 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Six on week days? 21 A. Yes, my Lord. 22 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Yes, thank you very much. 24
23 MR. RAMPTON: What about other people's newspapers? Do you have 23
time to read those as well or not?
25 A. I must admit, it may sound very funny, my Lord, I do not take
by my clients is it? It is probably all wrong in that case. Have you seen that, do you remember reading that one? I know it is not in Swahili, which it should be. Do you remember it? A. My Lord, as I said, I cannot remember many of these articles. Q. Let me just draw your attention to them one by one and then perhaps I will ask you a question at the end. Page 13 is an article from The Guardian and probably The Guardian's website by the look of it, headed, "Briton prevents court entourage visit at farm bay 24th May 2006." Do you have any recollection of that article? A. No, my Lord. Q. Then there is an equivalent piece on page 14 from Nipashe. Then the next one, I think, is 20th July 2006. Again, in Nipashe. It is page 18. Do you remember that one or not?
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MENGI-RAMPTON High Commissioner, but honestly I could not tell what made him change that way. I will have to find them, which seemed to have come out of a meeting that you had had with Mr. Pocock's successor, Mr. Parham, do you remember that this morning when you were in court?
2 A. My Lord, I said I cannot remember. 3 Q. Then there are some articles from some other newspapers. The 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 12 14 15 16
next article is on page 21, which is I think the 7th or 8th, I know not, an article from The Guardian, accompanied by a similar one on page 22 from Nipashe. We are nearly at the end now. "Controversy as High resident is hurt in an assault by armed gang." According to Mr. Price, this is a shocking defamation of Mr. Middleton. Do you remember whether you read that at the time, or not? paper; normally, I do not. response was that you did not write it and you do not know whether it is true or false because you have not investigated it, is that right?
4 Q. You will remember this morning there was some documents, and
9 A. Yes. 10 Q. I think you were cross-examined about them. I am trying to 11
11 A. No, my Lord, as I said, I had no special interest to read the 13 Q. When you were shown it under cross-examination. I think your
find where they are. If you give me just a moment ----
12 MR. PRICE: It is file 5.2. 13 MR. RAMPTON: Thank you very much. File 5.2, page 316. No, 14 15 16
I was thinking of something else. It is page 316, tab D. I am sorry about that, Mr. Mengi. Are you now there? Do you have page 316, in tab D of 5.2.
17 A. Yes, my Lord. 18 Q. But you did not see it at the time, in any event? 19 A. No, my Lord. 20 Q. The next one, many years ago now, is 11th April 2007, from The 21 22 23
17 A. Yes, my Lord. 18 Q. Can you see that is a letter from Mr. Nguma to the British 19 20 21 22 23 25
High Commissioner, it is dated January 2009, and it says, "As agreed at the meeting with Mr. Mengi [that is you] the Executive Chairman of IPP, I am enclosing herewith notes on Silverdale and on Mbono Farms." What exactly happened at that meeting, do you remember? Commissioner in Tanzania and sometimes he just calls, can we
Guardian, "Britons to pay 90m shillings for defamation and a similar thing in Nipashe on page 25, and mention of 20m in compensation. Do you remember either of those articles?
24 A. I cannot remember, my Lord. 25 Q. If you do read a newspaper during the course of your busy day,
24 A. My Lord, as I said, I am close with the British High
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MENGI-RAMPTON would you tend to read in English or in Swahili?
MENGI-RAMPTON have a chat, have a cup of coffee, a cup of tea or whatever, and I go over and we will discuss issues normally relating to business in Tanzania. Visitors come to Tanzania, who call me and discuss businesses and so forth. Through that meeting this cropped up. That was not the purpose of this meeting. He asked me whether I could brief him on the issues of Silverdale and I told him I had no clue, I was not interested. But I arranged for some notes to be sent to him in writing, by Nguma, "Can you produce some notes for His Excellency the High Commissioner," or can you arrange for those notes to be prepared. They prepared the notes, my Lord. I never saw them. He forwarded them to His Excellency the High Commissioner. That is what happened. "Silverdale and Mbono Farms," and it runs through to 20-something paragraphs, as I recall. The first question is, Mr. Mengi, did you ever see that note before it was sent by Mr. Nguma to the High Commissioner?
3 A. Normally English and of course depending on the article which 4 I want to read, my Lord. 5 Q. Two connected questions having to do with your brother, Ben, 6 you said that when you had in the past, before the meeting 7 8 9
with the High Commissioner on 13th December, when you raised the question with your brother, Ben, he was apt to fly off the handle.
10 A. Sorry? 11 Q. Get very angry. 12 A. I said always he get angry with me whenever I discuss his 13 14 15 16 17 18
businesses. The only day he showed some positive attitude to be willing to speak is when I mentioned that I had been with the High Commissioner and Mr. Middleton, and His Excellency the High Commissioner had proposed that we meet and I mediate. That is the only time he came out positively, before then it was fight, fight, fight.
15 Q. You see behind that is a note in a different typeface, headed,
19 Q. Do you believe or not, or do you know, perhaps, whether the 20 fact that on this one occasion instead of, as you put it, 21 22 23 24
20 A. My Lord, not at all. 21 Q. Did you have any input into that note before it was sent? 22 A. My Lord, nothing. 23 Q. We will ask Mr. Nguma about it in due course. I want to ask 24 25
going wild Ben actually agreed to talk to you about the thing and be, at any rate on the face of it, be reasonable, do you believe that that might have had something to do with the fact that it involves the High Commissioner?
you a couple of questions, if I may, about Sakina Datoo, the first one is only indirectly related to her. It arises from
25 A. In a way, I do not know, maybe, it could be the visit to the
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MENGI-RAMPTON some material, two documents in file 3, tab D, page 183. Do you have that? Do you see that it is an internal memo of The Guardian from the Managing Director, who is called Mr. Msharma; yes? A. Yes, my Lord. Q. It is addressed to Sakina Datoo. A. Yes, my Lord. Q. It is dated 16th October 2008. She is at that time working as the Group Editorial Director of The Guardian Limited. A. Yes, my Lord. Q. Effectively, and we need not read it again, gives her a dressing down or reprimand for having published any story which is adverse to the President. A. Yes, my Lord. Q. It says, "He has to see the copy before it is printed and it is the company's official policy that all editors are obliged to observe without fail." First of all, so far as you are aware, was that the company's official policy, to be kind to the President? A. There was no such policy and what they say in this letter at all. Q. When did you first see this memo? A. I saw it, my Lord, in these -- Today I have not seen it, I do not think I have read this letter.
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MENGI-RAMPTON the managing director. It says this: "Dear Mr. Msharma, your memo to Sakina Datoo IPP Print Media Group Editorial Director, I have seen your memo to Sakina Datoo ....(reads to the words).... in my view," and this is what Mr. Nguma is saying, in his view, "This is direct interference with editorial independence and I hope you that you will not do this again in the future in respect of this or any other case." From what you said, may we assume that you did not see the earlier memo at this time, this is Mr. Nguma acting off his own bat?
11 A. I did not, my Lord. 12 Q. No, so Mr. Nguma is not acting under your instructions when he 13 writes this? 14 A. Not at all, my Lord. 15 Q. Did what he wrote, does that fit in with your view about the 16 correct way of treating editorial independence? 17 A. Yes, my Lord. 18 Q. I want to ask you to look it up because I know you have read 19 it but this is just in passing and you have already told his 20 21 22 23 24 25
Lordship that you have read Mr. Kamandera's statement and as far as it concerns you it is not true. There is one question which arose this morning and it was put in a rather, what shall I say, timid way, do you give cash bonuses to journalists. The answer was, "No, I don't." Do you remember what Mr. Kamendera actually says in his
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MENGI-RAMPTON Sorry ---I cannot have seen it before. You saw it perhaps in the preparation for this case? Yes, I have not even read it now because I do not think I have. Q. You do not remember it from 2008? A. No. Q. Look over, which Mr. Price avoided doing, turn over the page and see what happened next. Here we see a reaction or apparently a reaction I think the next day from Mr. Nguma. Now, tell me exactly what Mr. Nguma's position is. He is general counsel to IPP, is that right? A. He is also the Chairman of the company. Q. Yes, but in his capacity as a lawyer, what role does he play within the group? A. Yes, within IPP he is the counsel for IPP and whenever the legal department of IPP or whatever company wants a higher decision, Nguma is the man. Q. If he gives you advice he gives you advice in your position as head of IPP, is that right? A. Exactly. Q. This letter comes on Guardian writing paper, it is dated 17th October 2008, the day following that bad-tempered note from the managing director to Sakina Datoo, and it is addressed to Q. A. Q. A.
MENGI-RAMPTON witness statement? Would you like to look at it? It is in file 2, tab 17; that should be Mr. Kamendera's witness statement. Do you have it?
5 A. Yes, I have it. 6 Q. You should find when you get there a statement by Eric 7
Kamendera.
8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Would you turn to paragraph 10, which should be on page 291. 10 MR. PRICE: That is the summary, not the statement. 11 MR. RAMPTON: Very good. I do not have the statement. Perhaps 12
I could use the same text. Is it the same text?
13 MR. PRICE: Not all together, no. 14 MR. RAMPTON: Right. We have that now. 292C is the page number. 15
You have paragraph 10 there?
16 A. Which is summary. 17 Q. Yes. It is the next document along, because the summary has 18 19 20 21
been left in the file. It does not matter. There is no actual copy of the witness statement there. This is something for which I am afraid we are not responsible. Does your Lordship have it? today. I have this statement. If you are asking about paragraph 10, it looks at first sight as though it has not changed.
22 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: There was a bundle of documents handed in 23 24 25
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MENGI-RAMPTON 2 MR. RAMPTON: I thought it was the same. Let me revert to what 3 you have there, Mr. Mengi, and what I have in my hand. Does
1 4
MENGI-RAMPTON
2 Q. When was that, roughly? 3 A. Oh, my God, it could be a month, two months ago. 4 MR. RAMPTON: It also was put to you that Mr. Kwayu, who is going 5 6
paragraph 10 start, "It was common knowledge."
5 A. Yes, my Lord. 6 Q. "It was common knowledge amongst journalists of the IPP 7 Guardian that the claimant could be generous if they carried 8 9 10 11
to give evidence in this case, made three threatening telephone calls to Miss Datoo. Do you remember that question.
7 A. I remember the question. 8 Q. I think it was proposed that you were standing by when those 9
out his wishes. The witness understood from discussion with other journalists that most editors and some reports ....(reads to the words).... that the claimant kept a
telephone calls were made.
10 A. That is a big lie, my Lord. 11 Q. Okay. In that case, that is fine. We will ask Mr. Kwayu 12 13 14 15
briefcase full of cash for that purpose." 12 A. My Lord, this is as I said earlier upsetting, it is wicked lie 13 and you have to be somebody nasty to create such a story.
14 Q. Is it true or false what he has written? 15 A. It is very false. 16 Q. You will notice that he gives no source for his allegations. 17
about it now that we know about it. The only one other topic I want to touch briefly on is this. Do you sill have file 2 there? Could you turn to Mr. Pocock's statement, which is tab 15, I think.
16 A. Yes, my Lord. 17 Q. We have touched on this before, and almost certainly we are 18 19 20 21 22
Did you see that?
18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Have you ever heard of such a rumour? 20 A. As I said, my Lord, it is ugly rumour. It is naked lies. 21 Q. I said I was going to ask you another question about Sakina 22 Datoo and I am asking this question, or perhaps more than one 23 24 25
not going through it all again, and I would not be allowed to, apart from anything else. There was one question which Mr. Price asked you that you ought to be allowed to deal with. Do you have paragraph 8 of that statement, page 279 of the file.
question, as I was not quite clear what your answers were this morning, or this afternoon, whenever it was. It was put to you, I think, and I am going to summarise it because
23 A. Yes. 24 Q. "Regarding the press's coverage of Mr. Middleton I cannot now 25
remember exactly what Mr. Middleton or I said but I am fairly
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MENGI-RAMPTON I think it is fair, that you telephoned Sakina Datoo and intimidated her and you threatened her, either implicitly or expressly, if she gave evidence for the defendant in this case. A. No, not at all, my Lord. Q. Since this case began, have you spoken to Sakina Datoo? A. I cannot remember but, as I said, she could have called me, my Lord, because we are good friends. Q. Yes. Do you remain friends? A. We are friends, close friends. Q. Do you know where she is living at the moment? A. No, my Lord. I know she is in Britain but I do not know where she is. Q. In Britain? A. Yes. Q. Although her husband seems to have come back to Tanzania to take up an appointment as a surgeon in Dar es Salaam ---A. Yes, my Lord. Q. As far as you know, she is not with him? A. I do not know whether they are together or not. MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Do you know if she is in this country or is that just a guess? A. I know she has been here, my Lord. When she called me she called me from London.
MENGI-RAMPTON certain that the issue was raised that the coverage had been unfair and untrue." Pausing there, you have already told his Lordship that Mr. Middleton did not mention any specific articles. A. No, my Lord. Q. Do you remember how long this conversation or this speech by Mr. Middleton about the press coverage, how long it must have taken? A. I am sorry? Q. Mr. Pocock has said that Mr. Middleton raised the question of coverage of the Silverdale Farm dispute that had appeared in your newspapers and I think you have confirmed that he did raise it. A. Yes, my Lord. Q. But that he did not mention any specific articles. A. No, my Lord. Q. How long did this episode take? A. Ery little because if I recollect correctly the focus was very much on security, that was the main thing. He said he was being harassed by my young brother. The others were various because that was the main concern, his safety and harassment. Q. Then Mr. Price read you the next few words, "I do recall Mr. Mengi saying that he would look into the coverage." Your answer to that was, "I don't remember."
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MENGI-RAMPTON 2 A. It is true, I cannot remember. 3 Q. What Mr. Price did not read was the next bit, "but I do not", 4 this is Mr. Pocock speaking, "but I do not myself remember any
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1 2 4 5
QUESTIONS BY THE COURT conclusion, Mr. Mengi. Earlier this afternoon you were shown a memo from Mr. Msharma.
3 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: I have just two or three questions in
undertaking from Mr. Mengi to stop his newspapers referring to the Silverdale case during that meeting." A. It is true. Q. You have always said, and still do, that you never gave any such undertaking. A. Nothing, my Lord. Q. Do you see a difference, Mr. Mengi, between if you did say it, saying, "Oh, well, I'll have a look at it," or "I will look into it," and giving an undertaking to stop the coverage? A. I would never give an undertaking, my Lord, to stop the coverage. Q. Finally this, Mr. Price asked you repeatedly why the Middletons should not be allowed to give their side of the Silverdale story on Miss Hermitage's website. Do you remember those questions? A. Yes. Q. Many many questions to that effect. Leaving aside the question for the moment, whether or not it was published, their side of that dispute, my question is this. If the Middletons had confined their responses to what was in your newspapers to giving their side of the Silverdale dispute and
6 A. Yes, my Lord. 7 Q. To Miss Datoo, in October 2008, when Mr. Msharma was managing 8
director of The Guardian.
9 A. Yes, my Lord. 10 Q. Is he still? 11 A. Yes, my Lord. 12 Q. Thank you. The next point, your own witness statement, bundle 13 14 15 16
2, file 2, first statement, if you turn to paragraph 107, after seeing the articles in Nipashe of November 2005 you spoke to your brother and once again urged him to seek an amicable solution to the dispute.
17 A. Yes, my Lord. 18 Q. Can you remember what his response to that was? 19 A. My Lord, every time I raised the issue of any of his 20 21 22 24
businesses he would scream at me, "This is my business. Leave it alone." The only time he appeared positive to talk was after the meeting with His Excellency the High Commissioner. occasion that you mentioned in paragraph 107?
23 Q. Yes. So far as you can remember, did he scream at you on that 25 A. Yes, every occasion, my Lord, he would get upset.
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MENGI - THE COURT 2 Q. You did not mention that in your witness statement. I wonder 3 why not.
1 4 A. I am sorry, but I thought it was a detail which I could give 5 if necessary and I am sorry it is not there but that is the
MENGI-RAMPTON to criticise your newspapers for their coverage, would you have brought this action? A. I am sorry? Q. I must try again. If the website coverage which Miss Hermitage has devoted to the Silverdale dispute, in the course of which she has made statements upon which this action is founded; yes? A. Yes. Q. If she had confined her observations to giving the Middletons' side of the dispute with your brother, the Silverdale dispute, and quite possibly to complaining about the articles which had appeared reporting that dispute in your newspapers, if that had been her position, if that is what had appeared on the website, would you have brought these proceedings? A. Certainly not, my Lord. Q. What if they had added, "And Mr. Mengi, the owner of these newspapers, could have, if he had wished, put a stop to it." A. I could not put a stop to it. Q. No, I know that. We can see for ourselves what in act was said so we need not go back to that, we can all read. MR. RAMPTON: My Lord, those are all the questions I have in re-examination.
truth, my Lord. 7 Q. Now you were asked about Miss Hermitage's letter to you of 8 25th March 2006 claiming that she had been treated unfairly in
6 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
the newspapers? A. Yes. Q. Mr. Price was complaining, rightly or wrongly, of the fact there was n o reply to that. You said that you get hundreds of letters a day. A. I meant, I am sorry, later on I said 20 or 30 letters a day, not hundreds. Q. Twenty or 30. A. Yes, my Lord, not hundreds. Q. On a typical day how many of those are letters of complaint about coverage in your newspapers of individuals? A. My Lord, letters of complaint are many. There are many and I do not think a day passes without getting quite a few complaints. Q. Do people who write letters of complaint to you generally get a reply from somebody, or not? A. Normally, my Lord, I pass, as I said earlier, I am very tight
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MENGI - THE COURT on my time and I just mark it to whoever I think can handle the correspondence but for me it will be almost impossible to attend to these letters on my own. Q. I was not asking whether you personally replied but so far as you know do people who write in complaints generally get a reply from somebody on your behalf, or generally not? A. My Lord, I can assume that they get a reply but I never follow up any letters. Q. Thank you. The last point is this, Mr. Mengi, we have seen and Mr. Price has asked you about a number of articles in the newspapers which you own about your charitable activities, your anti-corruption activities, and so on, and the articles praise you. A. Yes, my Lord. Q. Can you recall any occasion when any of your newspapers have criticised you? A. I have to think about it, my Lord, but right now nothing comes to my mind, but I am sure if I was to think -- yes, for example, the one article I have seen today I did not say that, that my media business is a hobby and so forth. That is not true. For me it is very damaging. Q. Can you think of any occasion when our newspapers have criticised your brother? A. I cannot, my Lord, because, as I say, I just do not read that
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 14 15 16
MENGI - THE COURT So, the writings or the defamation is all about me. So I am being made to carry the burden of the other two people, lots of other people, the media, the editors, and my brother. Mr. Price did say the defamation which the Middletons are complaining of is more serious than my case but, my Lord, she is after me for actions of other people, not my actions. But on the other side I am complaining of actions which she has taken against me but for her knowing that what she is writing is not true, and instead of chasing the editors, chasing Benjamin Mengi, I am now the victim. So, it is her who should be answerable for her actions. team headed by Queens Counsel of unrivalled experience and you can be absolutely sure that he will make these points on your behalf.
13 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Yes, Mr. Mengi, you are represented by a legal
17 THE WITNESS: Thank you, my Lord. 18 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Thank you. Thank you very much. Would you 19
like to leave the hot seat and return to the front row.
20 THE WITNESS: I am free at last, my Lord. 21 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Yes. We will take a short break and move on 22 24 25
at 20 to 4. there may be a slight problem, not with the attendance of the next witness, who is here, but arising from the fact that he
23 MR. RAMPTON: My Lord, I wanted to mention to your Lordship that
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MENGI - THE COURT much the papers. I do not have time to look through papers. The answer is no. MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Thank you very much, Mr. Mengi. Mr. Price, anything arising? MR. PRICE: No, my Lord. MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Mr. Rampton, anything arising? MR. RAMPTON: No, my Lord. THE WITNESS: My Lord, can I say a word?
MENGI - THE COURT is quite seriously ill and that because of the medication he has to take his voice is very faint. We have made enquiries whether some kind of amplification equipment might be available and I do not yet know the answer. It may be, and this is a terrible thing to suggest, your Lordship may have to move a bit closer to the witness box. What Mr. Price -- it is not funny in the slightest -- and I may do about it, I do not know. that direction a bit, although that will solve the problem for me but it would not solve the problem for counsel.
10 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Yes. 11 THE WITNESS: My Lord, I came to your country, to your courts, 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
10 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Yes. We will see how we go. I can move in
because I felt distressed. I felt very hurt because of what was being written about me by a person who lives here. The reason why I feel very bitter, my Lord, is because I am being made a victim of actions of other people. I am being made to carry the cross on behalf of my editors. We all know that I am not responsible, I am not accountable, I am not even answerable for the actions of these editors. I am being made to carry the cross of my young brother, called Benjamin Mangi. Bear in mind that I am not his keeper. I am not responsible, I am not accountable, and I am not even answerable for what he has done. My brother and I are two different people who by the grace of God, or could be accident, who are born of the same father and mother, but I do not do what he does. It is him.
13 MR. RAMPTON: I just give that warning. 14 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Let's see how we go. We will break off until 15 16 17 18 19 20
20 to 4. If you would like, while I am out, you or Mr. Eardley, or somebody, to get the witness in the witness box and get him to recite from the telephone directory, or something, just to see whether you can hear him, of course that is perfectly in order. We will resume at 20 to 4. (Short adjournment)
21 MR. RAMPTON: My Lord, I will call Mr. Nguma, if I may, please. 22 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Yes. 23 24 25
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MR. AGAPITUS NGUMA, SWORN EXAMINED BY MR. RAMPTON are poor, but I think by your right hand -- on the flap of the witness box, underneath your hand now, there is a file which I think has got "2" on it -- just by the microphone.
NGUMA - RAMPTON 2 Q. Does Mr. Reginald Mengi's press secretary also have an office 3 there?
1 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Which part of the building? 6 A. The opposite wing. 7 Q. Thank you. Now, could you take a file marked -- it is 1.2. 8 I do not know what it has got on the spine, but it is the 9 second of the two volumes 1. 10 A. The thin one? 11 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Like this, 1.2. 12 MR. RAMPTON: Has it got 1.2 on the back? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Please turn to page 199. It is in tab B. It is right at the 15 back. You have to go on. 16 A. Did you say D? 17 Q. D, right at the back. That is it. Now, if you go all the way 18 through. The page numbers are in the bottom right-hand
4 MR. RAMPTON: Mr. Nguma, by your right hand, I think -- my eyes
8 A. Yes. 9 Q. It has got something on top of it, which you might want to 10 11 12
remove. I think that is an original of a document I am going to ask you about. At least, I hope it is. So, just put that away for the moment.
13 A. It is the advice. 14 MR. RAMPTON: I do not know what that is, that document. 15 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: That is Mr. Eardley's advice. 16 MR. RAMPTON: Well, that can be put, politely speaking, on one 17 18
side. Now, would you turn in that file in front of you to the second divider. Yes?
19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Do you have the first page there of a statement with your name 21
on it?
22 A. This is Reginald Mengi's statement. 23 Q. The second divider, number 2. 24 A. Yes, I have got it. 25 Q. Is that the witness statement that you made for these
corner. 20 A. Which page? 21 Q. 199. 22 A. Yes.

19 23 Q. Is that a letter written to the managing editor of the 24 Guardian Newspaper by Sarah Louise Hermitage? 25 A. Yes.
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NGUMA - RAMPTON proceedings, Mr. Nguma? A. Yes. Q. Does it accurately record your full names and your address in Tanzania? A. Yes. Q. Would you turn to the last page of the statement, which is page 101, in the bottom right-hand corner. Yes? A. Yes. Q. Has it got a signature on it? A. Yes. Q. Is that your signature? A. Yes. Q. It says that you believe the facts stated in this witness statement are true? A. Yes. Q. Is that true? A. Yes. Q. Good. Thank you. I have only a few questions. You are, as we can see from reading your statement, you are the General Counsel of IPP Limited? A. Yes. Q. And you have an office in the same building as Mr. Reginald Mengi, the Chairman? A. Yes.
NGUMA - RAMPTON Q. Now, my Lord, there was last week an original of that letter. We were asked to produce it and it went into the witness box. It was in a plastic -- oh, it is here. No, that is not the original. It never came back. Could somebody very kindly see whether that plastic envelope is the document I am looking for? (Pause) Can you just show it to me first? Thank you very much. Would you kindly give it back to the witness? Thank you very much. (Same Handed) Now, if you would be good enough to just slide the letter out of the plastic envelope; could you do that? Perhaps you do not need to bother, but it probably will help. It is a letter with a little piece of card or a paper stapled to it, is it not?
14 A. Yes. 15 Q. In faint purple ink, in the middle, which we do not have on 16 17
our copies, there is a "received" stamp, is there not, running diagonally across?
18 A. Yes. 19 Q. I think it says "Received 2nd March 2006"? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. On the left-hand side of the page there is some manuscript. 22 23 24 25
Taking the bottom piece of manuscript first, where it says "MW, please open SH case file and file this", whose writing is that? Who wrote that -- not the one on the piece of paper clipped on it.
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NGUMA - RAMPTON Okay. I wrote this. You wrote that? Yes. Who is MW? My personal secretary. So, it would appear that you would have seen this at some stage after it arrived on 2nd March 2006? A. Yes. Q. As well as being General Counsel to IPP Limited, do you also advise the editors and managing directors, and so on, of the newspapers, as necessary? A. Yes. Q. Did this letter come to you in that capacity? A. This letter came to me from the managing director. Q. From the managing director? A. Of the Guardian. Q. Do you know if Mr. Reginald Mengi ever saw it? A. He did not. Q. In your witness statement, you say that you gave certain advice to the managing director; is that right? A. Yes. Q. About this letter. My Lord, I take the view that what he actually, as I now know, told the managing director is not privileged at all, but, in any event, Mr. Nguma is able to A. Q. A. Q. A. Q.
NGUMA - RAMPTON 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. SH stands, may I assume, for Sarah Hermitage? 4 A. Yes.
1 5 Q. So, you did not have a Sarah Hermitage file before this? 6 A. The file had been open. That is why ---7 Q. Sorry? 8 A. I said for her to open the file. 9 Q. Oh, I see. There was a file? 10 A. There would have been a file. There was a case file, my file 11 on the Silverdale case. 12 Q. Oh, your file? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. I am sorry. Your file as ---15 A. There was a file. 16 Q. Yes. But in what capacity did you keep that file: in your 17 capacity as a lawyer for IPP, or in your capacity as lawyer
for Mr. Benjamin Mengi? 19 A. Benjamin Mengi. 20 Q. I have it. Thank you very much. Then if you would turn over 21 just a couple of pages to page 203. Here, and on the
18 22 23 24 25
following page -- sorry, two pages, 205 -- there are two letters, both signed by Mr. Middleton but, we know now, written by Miss Hermitage, two letters to Mr. Mengi, with his handwriting, I think it is, on the top right-hand corner.
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NGUMA - RAMPTON waive such privilege as there may be, since he is a director of the company. (To the witness) What advice, if advice it be called, what advice did you give to the managing director of the Guardian in relation to this letter? A. I told him to use their complaints settlement to investigate the matter; and if they did find there was some wrongdoing, they should consult an external lawyer, because I had a conflict of interest with the defendant in the case I was doing for Benjamin Mengi. Q. So, you had a conflict of interest, because this concerned the Silverdale Farm dispute and you were acting for Benjamin Mengi in that dispute; is that right? A. Although it was not in the Silverdale case, but it was connected with the Silverdale case. Q. I am hoping I have got your answer right. You said, "I cannot act in this, because I am acting for Mr. Mengi and I think I have a conflict of interest"? A. Yes. Q. And you said, "Go to outside lawyers"? A. Yes. Q. I see you have written, or we think we can see your instruction to your secretary: "Please open SH case file and file this". Yes?
NGUMA - RAMPTON Have you got that -- 203? A. Yes. Q. Does it say, "ALN, this is a Guardian issue"? A. Yes. Q. That is addressed to you? A. Yes. Q. What does it mean to you when he says "this is a Guardian issue"? A. That it was not a matter for IPP Limited. Q. For? A. It was not a matter for IPP Limited. It was a Guardian issue, and I should give advice as the corporate counsel for IPP Limited and, I suppose, not as director for the Guardian Limited. Q. Then on page 205 -- sorry, before we leave 203, somebody has written on the left-hand side of the page "case file". Yes? A. Yes. Q. Whose writing is that? A. Mine. Q. Right. Then on page 205 there is another note by Mr. Mengi, he told us: "ALN" -- so, that is addressed to you -- "please note, this is a Guardian Limited matter." I have asked you about what he meant by that, so far as you are concerned. Then he tells you: "I did not give the underlined undertaking
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NGUMA - RAMPTON which you will see in the third paragraph"; and on the left-hand side, also, "case file". A. Yes. Q. And that, again, is you, is it? A. Yes. Q. In your witness statement you tell us that you gave him certain advice, presumably, as Chairman of IPP? A. I did. Q. I want to pass now, if I may, to something else. I am sorry, this probably means another file. Can you put that thin file away and take out file 5.2 and turn to tab D. Have you got tab D? A. Yes. Q. Inside D, turn to page 316. Is that a letter from you to the British High Commissioner? A. Yes. Q. Dated 26th January ---A. Yes. Q. -- 2009. It says: "Your Excellency has agreed at the meeting with Mr. Reginald Mengi, Executive Chairman of IPP... (read to the words)... farms." Mr. Mengi has told us how that came about. I need not trouble you with that at all. What I would like to ask you is to turn over the page, and you will see some notes on Silverdale and Mbono Farms, running from
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NGUMA - RAMPTON Q. You have given us a good deal of information about her, how she came to the company, how she left, and so on. I am not going to ask you any questions about that at all. Mr. Price can, if he wishes to do so. Can you please turn to page 183? Have you got it? A. Yes. Q. Is it a memorandum, an internal memo from the managing director, Mr. Msharma, to Sakina Datoo? A. Yes, it is. Q. We read it this morning. Were you in court when I read it out? A. Yes. Q. Do you remember it? A. Yes. Q. It is your response which I am interested in, which is on the next page, page 184, the day following. Do you see that? A. Yes. Q. Again, I read that out this morning. It is, in effect, is it not -- I am sure I will not be criticised for leading in this way -- it is a rocket to Mr. Msharma? A. Yes. Q. What we used to call a sort of blowing up? A. Sorry? Q. A blowing up, a reprimand. A reprimand?
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NGUMA - RAMPTON 2 A. Yes, it is a reprimand. 3 Q. A ticking off? 4 A. Yes.
1 5 Q. My first question is: how did you come to hear or know about 6 what Mr. Msharma had written to Sakina Datoo? 7 A. The memo is copied to me. 8 Q. It is copied to you? So it was. So it was. In the light of 9 what you read, did you -- you read the memo, yes? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Did you do anything else, speak to anybody else, before 12 writing this memo that we have in front of us at page 184? 13 A. I didn't. 14 Q. In effect, you tell Mr. Msharma: "This is a direct 15 interference with editorial independence, and I hope you will 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
NGUMA - RAMPTON page 317 to 322. Yes? A. Yes. Q. They are not signed by anybody. My first question, Mr. Nguma, is: who wrote those notes? A. I did. Q. You did? A. Yes. Q. On the basis of what information? A. Benjamin Mengi's information. Q. You wrote it out, typed it out, got it typed out? A. Yes. Q. And gave it to the High Commissioner? A. Yes. Q. Did you ever show it to Mr. Reginald Mengi? A. No. Q. Did you tell him that you had done it? A. I didn't. Q. Thank you. Only one more thing now. I am afraid it means another file, Mr. Nguma. If you would not mind kindly putting that one away and retrieve file 3, please, and turn to tab D again. I preface this by saying that in your witness statement you have given us a good deal of information -- do you remember Sakina Datoo? A. Yes.
not do this again in the future in respect of this or any other case." Why did you say that? A. Because he was telling her not -- he was directing her how to write news about the President. Q. But why was it that you thought it necessary to reprimand him for doing that? A. Because ---Q. Why did it matter? A. Because he was interfering with the editorial independence of Sakina.
[37] (Pages 307 to 310)

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NGUMA - RAMPTON Q. You, being General Counsel for IPP and, I think, a director of the Guardian, disapproved of that? A. Yes. Q. How long have you worked with Mr. Mengi? A. Upwards of 32 years. Q. Were you with him at the foundation of the Guardian and Nipashe and the ITV? A. Yes. I founded them. Q. Are you familiar with the Group's policy against editorial interference? A. Sorry. Q. I am sorry, it is a difficult court, and I sometimes speak too quickly. Are you, therefore, familiar with the Group's policy against editorial interference? A. Yes. Q. Have you stuck to that all the time you have worked at the Group? A. Structured the policy? Q. Sorry. Have you adhered to that; have you stuck to it? A. Yes, throughout. Q. Throughout. So far as you know, has Mr. Mengi also? A. Yes. MR. RAMPTON: Thank you. Please remain there, Mr. Nguma.
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
NGUMA - PRICE director? A. Yes. Q. Do you see that? A. Yes. Q. And it provides that in the case of appointment of a managing director, that appointment determines if he ceases to be a director? A. Yes. Q. Now, neither of the managing directors are directors of these companies, are they? A. Which clause are you referring to? Q. Well, look at the clause for TGL. They are both in the same terms -- at the bottom of page 4 of your statement. A. Yes. Q. "Directors may from time to time appoint one or more of their body to the office of managing director...." A. Yes. Q. "...or appoint any person or body corporate to manage the company." A. Yes. Q. Then, jumping to the bottom of the page: "In the case of the appointment of a managing director, such appointment should be subject to determination ipso facto if he ceases from any course to be a director."
[Page 312]
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NGUMA - PRICE 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. You have appointed managing directors of both companies? 4 A. Yes.
1 5 Q. The managing director of the Guardian is not a director of the 6 Guardian? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Nor is the managing director of ITV a director of ITV? 9 A. Could you read clause 88, please? 10 Q. "The directors may entrust to and confer upon a managing 11 director or any person or any body corporate appointed to the 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
NGUMA CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR. PRICE MR. PRICE: Can I start by asking you to look at paragraph 9 of your witness statement, Mr. Nguma? You will have it in file 2, but you may well have it -- I think it is in front of you, under file 1.2. So, put 1.2 on top of the box. That is it. A. Which paragraph? Q. Paragraph 9. Have you got that? Now, here you are talking about the way in which these companies are structured; yes? A. Yes. Q. You say, about just opposite the lower punch hole: "I made sure that the constitutions of the two companies" -- that is the Guardian and ITV -- "incorporated clauses which legally enabled the directors of the companies to entrust their managing powers to managing directors." A. Yes. Q. Then you later point out that that, indeed, has happened and that managing directors have been appointed to both companies? A. Yes. Q. You helpfully set out the relevant clauses of both the Guardian's constitution and ITV's constitution? A. Yes. Q. Which provides, in each case, that the directors may appoint one or more of their body to the office of a managing
management of the company any of the powers...." So, you can give any powers you like to a managing director? A. Anybody. Q. But if he is a managing director, he must be a director of the company; and if he ceases to be, he must cease to be managing director? A. No. The two clauses are not complemented. Q. The clause could hardly be clearer? A. Clause 88, does it mention anywhere that it has got to be a director? Q. No, because that is in clause 87. It says: "The directors may appoint any one or more of their body to be managing director, and such an appointment shall be subject to determination ipso facto if he ceases to be a director."
[38] (Pages 311 to 314)

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NGUMA - PRICE 2 A. Clause 88 says: "The directors may entrust to and confer upon 3 a managing director or any person or body corporate appointed
1
to manage the company." 5 Q. Yes. But in the case of a managing director, he has got to be 6 a director?
4 7 A. They may appoint any person or body corporate. 8 Q. Yes. But you have not done that; you have appointed a 9 managing director? 10 A. I don't think that is a requirement. 11 Q. All right. Well, I will not pursue it. Can I turn to the 12 letters that were written to the managing editor of the 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
NGUMA - PRICE 2 A. I asked her to open a Sarah Hermitage case file. 3 Q. Yes. But if you go back to page 203, you have just told me 4 and just told my Lord, that "case file" at the top, that is
1
the Silverdale Middleton file? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Which is the file that you kept because you were acting for 8 Benjamin Mengi?
5 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. So, my question to you is: it is right, is it not, that when 11 you were given these letters by Mr. Reginald Mengi, you
Guardian by Miss Hermitage. You will find them -- we were looking at them a moment ago -- they are in file 1.2, which is the little one that you have open on the top, underneath the one you have just put there. Tab D, at the back, and can we start on page 203? A. Yes. Q. This is the same on 205. You have written "case file" at the top. Which file was that? A. The file I told my secretary to open. Q. But you had not told her to open a file? A. Sorry? Q. You had not told her to open a file. You told her that in May, and this is in April?
instructed that they be filed on your Benjamin Mengi file? 13 A. You are right. 14 Q. Thank you. The letter you received, the letter on page 199, 15 on 5th May 2006 or thereabouts; is that right?
12 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. But you had already seen it, this letter, because it had been 18 sent to you by Mr. Reginald Mengi in April? 19 A. This letter? 20 Q. Yes -- because if you look at page 203, Mr. Reginald Mengi 21 sent you this on 10th April; that is right, is it not? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And if you look down towards the bottom of the page, the last 24 full paragraph: "On 24th February my wife wrote to the 25
managing editor of the Guardian and a copy of this letter is
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NGUMA - PRICE 2 MR. RAMPTON: My Lord, I think my learned friend is confused 3 because he has not got the original. The date stamp on the
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NGUMA - PRICE enclosed to you for your attention." So, you received that letter in April; that is right, is it not? A. Just a minute. (Pause) It was attached to the letter of 25th March. Q. Yes. Well, I do not know whether it was attached, but it was enclosed. A. Yes. Q. So, when you got this letter from the managing director of the Guardian, you had already had it for a month, but you had not done anything about it; that is right, is it not? A. Yes, that is right. Q. Go back to page 199. You can see the stamp "received 2nd March 2006", which you cannot see on the copy, but you can see it on the original. That letter was kept by the managing editor of the Guardian and/or the managing director for two months before they passed it on to you? A. Yes. Q. You must have been pretty cross about that, were you not, Mr. Nguma? A. I wasn't. Q. You were not? A. No. Q. Why not? (Pause) Is that normal practice in your business? A. I don't teach them the practice. I didn't ask them why they
original is 2nd March 2000. MR. PRICE: No. I beg your pardon. My learned friend's helpful intervention is wrong. Go to page 199, would you, Mr. Nguma? A. 199? Q. Yes. A. Yes. Q. What does that say at the top in Swahili, that your secretary has written? A. "There is already a file on Silverdale Middleton". Q. Quite so. A. "Should I open another?" Q. And you said, "Yes, open a Sarah Hermitage case file"? A. That is right. Q. So when earlier, in April, you wrote "case file" on the letters that we see at page 203 and 205, it was the Silverdale Middleton file that you were referring to? A. Yes. Q. And that was a file that you kept because you were acting for Benjamin? A. Yes. Q. So, what you have written on the letters to Mr. Reginald Mengi is that they are to be filed on the Benjamin Mengi file?
[39] (Pages 315 to 318)

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NGUMA - PRICE did not send it to me earlier. Q. Were you slightly surprised that they had waited two months? It is an important matter, is it not? A. I noticed that it was sent to me late. That, I noticed. Q. But you did not say anything about that? A. I didn't. Q. Can you think of any reason why they might have sat on it for two months? A. I didn't think about that. Q. Well, it might have had something to do with the fact that it was all about Benjamin Mengi and he was the boss's brother, might it not? A. You mean that is why they delayed it? Q. Well, it seems reasonable, does it not? They did not know what to do with it? A. I do not know. I didn't think about it that way. Q. Did you notice that this letter, on page 200 -- do you see, just opposite the top punch hole, page 200: "Had the reporter checked his facts, he would have found that all the allegations against the men were immediately ordered to be dropped by the Director of Public Prosecutions"? A. Which paragraph? Q. The paragraph just opposite the top punch hole, on page 200. Do you see, right opposite the top punch hole: "If the
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NGUMA - PRICE director of the Guardian to do. Q. Right. You advised him, did you, that this was a letter from a lay representative and there was no Power of Attorney, and so there was no need to do anything about it? A. I didn't do that. Q. Well, what is your point about this being a letter from a lay representative without a Power of Attorney? A. In any case, I asked them to investigate and if they found wrongdoing, they should engage an external lawyer to deal with the matter. Q. Well, let us look at the letters to Mr. Reginald Mengi. There is one on page 203 and another on page 205. You deal with this in paragraph 23 of your witness statement. You say that you considered the letter and gave legal advice to Reginald Mengi; is that right? A. Yes. Q. And you say the same thing in relation to the second letter? A. I wouldn't say that I gave legal advice. Q. I beg your pardon, Mr. Nguma. Would you like to look at your witness statement, which, only a moment ago, you swore to be true. Go to paragraph 23. Have you got your witness statement there Mr. Nguma? A. Just a minute. Q. It is in file 2. It is at file 2 at tab 2. I am sorry, there
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NGUMA - PRICE reporter had checked his facts, he would have found that all of the allegations against the men were immediately ordered to be dropped by the Director of Public Prosecutions"? A. Yes. Q. And she is complaining that that had not been reported in the newspaper? A. Yes. Q. In fact, the newspaper had repeated it time and time again: on 8th December, on 3rd January, 19th January. Were you at all concerned about that? A. (Pause) I can say one thing about this. This letter says it is coming from a lay legal representative of the men. This letter did not come from the man she is complaining about. I had not seen any Power of Attorney or anything suggesting that she has got power and she is acting for this man, and I didn't pay much attention towards this lay person, this lay legal representative it was talking about. Q. So, is that the reason why Miss Middleton did not get a reply to this letter? MR. RAMPTON: Miss Hermitage. MR. PRICE: I am sorry. I beg your pardon -- Mrs. Middleton, Miss Hermitage. Is that the reason why she did not get a reply to this letter? A. I don't know. I have said what I advised the managing
NGUMA - PRICE is a lot of confusion about files. Do you have it now? A. Yes. What page is that? Q. Paragraph 23 on page 11, page 94 of the bundle. MR. JUSTICE BEAN: 94 overall. MR. PRICE: Do you see paragraph 23? A. Yes. Q. Look at B: "As to the letter of 25th March, it was forwarded to me by Mr. Mengi. I considered the letter and gave legal advice to Reginald Mengi and the managing editor, privilege in which is not waived." A. Yes. Q. Is that evidence ---A. It is true. It is correct. Q. It is true? A. It is correct. Q. Now, look over the page, or the bottom of the page, C, 19th April letter: "I considered the letter and gave legal advice to Reginald Mengi, privilege in which is not waived." Do you see that? A. Yes. Q. Is that true? A. It is true. Q. So, when you were advising Mr. Reginald Mengi, giving him legal advice, you did not feel that you had a conflict of
[40] (Pages 319 to 322)

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NGUMA - PRICE interest; is that right? A. I didn't. Q. You did not. Is that evidence true, Mr. Nguma? A. It is true. Q. Right. But when you were giving advice to the managing director of the Guardian, you considered that you did have a conflict of interest; is that right? A. Yes, because I had received a letter from the defendant complaining to the (inaudible) Society Advocates Committee about me, and I was not in a position to deal with the matter. Q. Well, who was the complainant? A. The defendant. Q. What, Miss Hermitage complained? A. Yes. Q. To what, to the Law Society? Is that what it is called? A. Yes. Q. You just explain to my Lord, so that we can all understand it clearly -- because you are an intelligent man, Mr. Nguma, and you are a highly experienced lawyer, are you not? A. Yes. Q. How come that you have a conflict of interest when you are advising the managing director of the Guardian about this, but you do not have a conflict of interest when you are advising Mr. Reginald Mengi?
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NGUMA - PRICE the advocate for Benjamin Mengi in a lawsuit against Miss Hermitage, give advice either to the Guardian or to Mr. Reginald Mengi on this subject, could you? A. No, I did not know that Mr. Mengi was in any way involved. Q. What you were advising him about was a letter from Miss Hermitage complaining to Mr. Reginald Mengi about coverage in his newspapers. A. The Guardian newspapers? Q. You ---A. Not his newspapers. Q. You gave legal advice to Reginald Mengi, privilege in which you declined to waive. Is that right? A. Yes. Q. Are you sure you gave legal advice to him? A. I told him not to respond. Q. You told him not to respond? A. Yes. Q. So you, as Mr. Benjamin Mengi's advocate, are advising his brother not to reply to a letter of complaint from the person that you were acting against in the lawsuit. This is the gravest possible ---A. Do you refer to the letters separately, please? Q. Yes, you explain. A. The letter of 25th March, Mr. Middleton is referring to
[Page 324]
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1 2 3 Q. Yes. 4 A. There is no such company and Reginald Mengi does not have any 5 7 9 10 11 13 14 15 16 18 19
NGUMA - PRICE A. When I was advising Reginald Mengi, I didn't have any conflict of interest. Q. Why not? A. The case I was handling for Benjamin Mengi started in November 2005. Q. Correct. A. I didn't know that Reginald Mengi was in any way involved in the Silverdale dispute. I didn't even know that he had had a meeting with the Middletons or Andrew Pocock, and I did not know that he had made undertakings to anybody until I saw that letter to him in which he had underlined that sentence that I did not make any undertakings. Q. Well, did you have reason to suppose that the managing director of the Guardian was involved in the Silverdale Farm dispute? A. I didn't. Q. Well then, did you or did you not have a conflict of interest when advising the managing director of the Guardian? A. That is when I told him that I had a conflict of interest. Q. Because? Why did you have a conflict of interest? A. Because I had a case -- I was handling a case for Benjamin Mengi. Q. Mr. Nguma, just to come back and get our feet on the ground and talk some sense for a moment, you could not possibly, as
NGUMA - PRICE newspapers owned by IPP Holdings Ltd.
interest in such a company. my Lord? and resume at 10.30 tomorrow. As I think you have already heard me say to Mr. Mengi, you cannot discuss the case with anybody until your evidence is completed, some time tomorrow. brief. It is the question of transcripts. My understanding is that my learned friends have the advantage of a transcript. We do not. They are not, I think, obliged to provide us with one. am to look at it, then you must have it as well. I have been supplied with day one.
6 MR. PRICE: Perhaps we had better resume tomorrow morning, 8 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Yes, right. Mr. Nguma, we will break off there
12 MR. PRICE: Before your Lordship rises there is one matter, very
17 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: I have said to Mr. Rampton in opening that if I
20 MR. RAMPTON: You have, have you? 21 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Yes. 22 MR. PRICE: What I do not want to happen, my Lord, is that we 23 24
should be supplied with it all on the evening before closing speeches.
25 MR. RAMPTON: My learned friend need not make a song and dance
[41] (Pages 323 to 326)

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1 2 3
NGUMA - PRICE about this; I was going to ask your Lordship whether your Lordship had started getting it.
1 2 3
NGUMA - PRICE to use overnight and then if more copies could be supplied in
4 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Yes. 5 MR. RAMPTON: On the e-mail, it came through? 6 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Yes. Well, an e-mail came through at about 7 8 9 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 20 21 22
the morning, that would be most helpful. 4 MR. PRICE: If we could take one because then my learned junior 5 can start working on indexing.
6 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: He can. I have it on e-mail anyway. 7 MR. PRICE: I am sure your Lordship will be supplied with another
9.30 this morning and when I arrived in court, there was a hard copy on my desk. I assumed, it turns out wrongly, that each side would have a hard copy. the other side have them yet. We, obviously, have to make a decision -- I personally speaking obviously far prefer everybody has it. It makes all our lives much easier, but of course I need instructions about that because it costs money. I do not suppose for a moment there will be a problem. Can I just leave it for the moment. May we send an e-mail to the other side and to your Lordship, perhaps, tonight with a decision on that? Mr. Rampton. I cannot say that I have taken in very much, but I am not going to look at it for a moment longer until and unless Mr. Price has it.
10 MR. RAMPTON: No, I was going to ask that because I do not think
hard copy. 9 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Yes, please. Before anyone stands up, can I 10 just sort out my files. (Pause) I was given this morning a
8 11 12 13 14 15 16
small pile of documents headed "Schedule of Trial Bundle Updates", with the name of Carter-Ruck at the top right. Re-amended defence, an e-mail from Miss Hermitage to a Mr. Ebbick, some additional witness statements and a Guardian Organisational Chart and so on. Is there any reason why my
clerk should not thread these into the documents? 17 MR. RAMPTON: No, I have done it to mine. 18 MR. PRICE: I think it would be a good idea. Can I suggest that
19 20 21 22 23
19 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Well, I have already had it and looked at it,
your Lordship, in the case of re-amended defence, if you would discard the amended defence because the numbering has replaced it. The e-mail to Mr. Ebbick is just a better copy of a document that is already in the file, so the old one can be
23 MR. RAMPTON: I know that. 24 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: What I will do is hand back this one, which is 25
unmarked, and if you decide, as I hope you will, having taken
discarded as well. 24 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Right, will do. 10.30 tomorrow. 25 (Adjourned until 10.30 tomorrow)
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NGUMA - PRICE instructions, that Mr. Price can see it, then he can have it overnight rather than me because I do not need it overnight. If the decision is that he is not to see them, then I am not going to take it back, nor permit reference to it. However, it would be very unfortunate because I have been proceeding today on the basis that I am going to get a transcript because otherwise I would have made a much fuller note.
10 MR. RAMPTON: Yes, I quite understand that. Me too, for that 11 matter, as I know that I am. How quickly would your Lordship 12
like us to deal with it because ----
13 MR. PRICE: My Lord, the only point, I ---14 MR. RAMPTON: Let me finish. 15 MR. PRICE: I beg your pardon, Mr. Rampton. 16 MR. RAMPTON: If your Lordship gives me two minutes, I can
probably get instructions quite quickly. 18 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: I think that would be a good idea. I will just 19 rise for a moment to let you take instructions and then I will
17 20 21
come back into court.
(Short Adjournment) 22 MR. RAMPTON: Yes, less than two minutes. The answer is yes, 23 everybody shall a transcript. Perhaps we can leave it there? 24 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: I am very grateful. If there are not lots of
25
copies in court, shall I lend mine to Mr. Price and Mr. Barnes
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LONDON, WC2A 1HP
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act 192:2 292:20 304:18 acting 167:4 172:3 285:10,12 304:13,18 316:21 317:7 320:16 325:21 action 174:9,9 175:24 180:17 181:18 225:25 226:4 270:25 292:3,7 actions 199:7 296:15,18 297:7 297:7,8,12 activities 209:13 272:21 295:12 295:13 actual 264:7 286:19 added 292:17 additional 329:14 address 208:17 300:4 addressed 283:7 284:25 306:6,22 addresses 189:18 addressing 192:8 adhered 311:20 Adjourned 247:20 329:25 adjournment 208:14 298:20 328:21 admit 230:5 276:25 adopted 233:2 advance 219:10 advantage 326:14 adverse 275:2 283:14 advertisers 208:21 advice 174:7,10 174:19 177:5 179:2,3,6,9,10 179:12 180:6,9 181:24 182:24 184:24 192:12 230:7,12 284:20 284:20 299:13 299:15 303:21 304:4,4,5 306:13 307:8 321:15,19 322:10,19,25 323:6 325:3,12 325:15 advise 169:25 176:2,10,22,24
177:10 303:11 advised 178:18,22 181:13,21 192:9 228:23 320:25 321:3 advisers 229:5,6 advises 176:11 advising 177:20 177:23 322:24 323:23,24 324:2 324:19 325:6,19 advisor's 255:10 advocate 325:2,19 Advocates 323:10 affairs 173:6 affect 179:17,20 179:22,23 180:3 182:6,13 afraid 164:11 242:21 275:5,24 286:20 308:19 Africa 187:22 190:19 African 189:2 199:12 201:25 205:3 277:8 278:2 Africa's 188:22 afternoon 287:24 293:4 Aga 277:11 AGAPITUS 299:2 age 184:7 ago 269:18 279:20 289:3 315:14 321:21 agree 164:5,8,9 255:12 261:10 agreed 168:2 169:8,11 181:21 231:19,20 250:17 280:21 281:20 307:20 agreement 246:19 255:18 Ah 247:6 ahead 220:18 Aidan 163:19 174:8 air 264:6 albino 266:24 albinos 266:13,22 266:25 alert 187:5 aline 221:5 allegation 274:22 allegations 287:16 319:21 320:3 alleged 275:13 alleviate 192:23
265:25 allow 173:6 216:21 allowed 239:9 243:7 262:17 269:21 289:18 289:20 291:17 allowing 227:5 allows 186:9 ALN 306:4,22 alongside 267:2 Alpha 243:13 alternative 213:16 altogether 250:23 ambassador 205:2 205:2,3,3,4,5,5 205:5,6,7,22 206:11 ambassadors 204:16,18,25 205:9 206:3,5 amended 275:12 329:20 American 244:18 amicable 293:16 amount 184:6 193:4 253:11 amounts 201:15 amplification 298:4 Andrew 324:10 and/or 318:16 angry 280:11,12 animals 266:23 anniversary 191:10 annual 183:14 251:17 257:2 258:8,21 259:10 answer 171:18 182:17 185:25 185:25 200:12 203:15 211:4 223:20 228:15 239:9 249:5 269:22,25,25 270:3 272:3 285:24 290:25 296:3 298:5 304:17 328:22 answerable 199:5 199:7,18 200:14 203:18 296:18 296:21 297:12 answered 165:11 239:11 answering 192:17 answers 287:23 anti-corruption 200:3 295:13 anti-graft
MARTEN WALSH CHERER LTD
1ST FLOOR, 6-9 QUALITY COURT, CHANCERY LANE
TEL: (020) 7067 2900
FAX: (020) 7831 6864
MENGI v HERMITAGE
7 NOVEMBER 2012
PROCEEDINGS DAY 2 [Page 331] 216:5 216:11,14,18,22 boss 170:12 237:4 241:11 boss's 319:12 bother 302:11 bottom 194:6 202:2 253:13,14 253:17 254:8,11 254:19,21 260:18,23 264:17 272:21 272:24,25 273:7 300:8 301:18 302:22 313:14 313:22 317:23 322:17 bought 246:15 box 174:11 213:6 247:10 298:7,17 299:6 302:3 312:6 brains 171:23 Brazilian 205:4 break 204:12 208:11 247:11 297:21 298:14 326:8 Breed 163:19 brief 193:20 243:23 251:7 282:7 326:13 briefcase 287:11 briefing 168:10 169:16 briefly 275:6 289:13 bring 266:24 269:11 Britain 288:13,15 British 281:18,24 307:16 Briton 278:19 Britons 279:21 broadcast 218:15 218:20,23,23,25 219:4,10,15,19 219:25 220:2,3 220:3,9,10,14 220:19,21,24 221:25 222:10 222:18 224:4,12 224:18 broadcasts 220:15 brother 165:2 166:12,24 172:3 172:12 173:5 245:18 246:16 246:16 248:3,23 249:19 255:3 262:2 274:24 280:5,8 290:21 292:11 293:15 295:24 296:19 296:22 297:4 319:12 325:20 brother's 164:6 166:14 204:4 245:2 248:24 249:24 251:12 256:11 257:22 258:13 261:5,13 brought 292:3,15 bubbling 236:22 budget 183:14,16 build 194:16,16 265:24 building 174:4 265:16 300:23 301:5 bull 236:5 bundle 173:21 196:17 205:7 207:2 243:22 247:10,15 273:2 273:3,4 286:22 293:12 322:4 329:11 burden 297:3 business 188:23 189:2 190:25 205:12,15,17 206:12 208:6,7 208:7,25 212:3 216:15,19 248:24 249:20 269:9 282:4 293:20 295:21 318:24 businesses 248:10 268:5 280:13 282:5 293:20 businessman 191:13 192:20 192:22 202:17 216:16 223:6 businessmen 198:20 204:19 204:21,23 bust 261:14 busy 184:5 236:20 265:18,19,19 271:4 279:25 C C 163:23 187:9 229:18 249:6,14 264:6 322:17 call 182:3 184:12 207:22 208:9 212:10,11
LONDON, WC2A 1HP
168:9,20 171:2 182:10,14 183:12 185:17 186:8 218:20 219:10 228:14 238:17 239:24 244:2 265:15 276:9 282:7 289:20 291:16 294:7 295:11 302:3 306:23 317:2 321:9 asking 164:24 171:4 181:7 183:5 185:24 205:25 214:8 216:17 222:14 222:16 227:17 240:8 286:23 287:22 295:5 312:3 asks 274:6 assault 279:7 Assembly 194:2 197:6 assess 164:12 165:17 190:15 194:24 205:11 205:15 206:12 assessment 191:23 assist 164:22 202:19 236:23 assisted 274:24 assume 171:14 182:23 201:18 285:9 295:8 305:3 assumed 327:8 assuming 246:23 assured 260:20 attached 318:4,6 attack 227:7 attacking 237:24 attempt 165:25 166:3 188:25 attend 295:4 attendance 268:12 297:24 attention 278:16 318:2 320:17 attitude 233:3 280:13 Attorney 320:15 321:4,8 audible 220:7 audience 208:20 auditors 254:13 auditor's 254:13 August 249:7,15 252:9 264:8,10
264:21 authority 174:14 automatic 278:11 available 257:19 298:5 average 186:17 avid 277:14,16 avoided 262:5 284:9 aware 222:25,25 237:20,23 264:15 283:19 Aziz 223:9 225:9 225:10 227:7 248:17 249:4 277:8 A-B-B-A-S 178:5
bay 278:20 BEAN 163:6 164:14 173:10 173:13,19,22 174:6,22 175:3 175:5,9,13 181:5 182:23 183:16 186:24 188:5 193:9,17 195:20,22 197:16 199:3 200:22 201:12 204:10 207:25 208:11 212:23 213:3 222:9 227:17,21 229:17 230:17 237:12 239:19 B 242:3,9 244:4 B 196:15 251:16 245:21 247:9,14 260:23 301:14 247:19 249:9,22 322:8 257:14 262:7,11 back 174:3 184:8 267:7 269:21 185:10 216:15 271:22,24 276:9 216:20 221:10 276:13,16,20,22 229:19 236:15 286:22 288:22 238:17 257:24 293:3 296:4,7 261:18 264:4,6 296:10 297:13 265:10,13 297:18,21 274:16 277:18 298:10,14,22 288:17 292:21 299:15 301:11 301:12,15,17 322:5 326:8,17 302:5,8 315:16 326:21 327:4,6 317:3 318:13 327:19,24 324:24 327:24 328:18,24 329:6 328:5,20 329:9,24 background Bear 296:20 165:22 190:14 becoming 267:10 228:17 beg 182:21 184:4 bad 201:18 316:5 320:22 badly 255:12 321:20 328:15 bad-tempered began 288:7 284:24 beginning 187:9 balance 221:12,15 189:8 221:15,17,17,19 begins 237:19 222:13,22,24 behalf 200:15 balancing 221:14 202:12 272:19 222:11 295:7 296:16 bank 215:3,14,18 297:16 255:4 beings 266:21 Banking 216:5 belief 269:6 Barnes 163:20 believe 203:23 328:25 233:6 268:23 Barrick 211:25 269:3 280:19,23 212:2,5 300:14 based 255:8 believed 256:9 basic 255:6 believers 194:8 basically 251:3 Ben 274:24 280:5 basis 182:25 308:9 280:8,21 328:7 BENCH 163:1 bat 285:10 Benjamin
164:22 167:4 172:15 181:8 203:12,14 243:8,12,17 244:19 296:19 297:11 304:11 304:13 305:18 305:19 308:10 316:22,25 317:8 317:12 319:12 324:5,22 325:2 325:19 best 176:25 179:8 better 236:8 238:16 239:9 262:8 326:6 329:21 biassed 164:23 bidding 166:15 big 164:16 171:19 183:9 251:9 270:11,12,13,18 289:10 bigger 212:17 billion 251:10 254:22 260:10 billions 217:18 bit 171:15 265:10 269:23 291:3 298:7,11 bitter 296:14 blamed 249:4 blessed 268:16,19 blind 266:12 blowing 309:23 309:25 board 209:5,6,7,7 213:24,25 214:3 231:19 233:23 234:2,3,4 250:23,25 251:15 253:21 259:17 260:12 260:20 271:16 272:6 body 235:3 312:25 313:17 313:19 314:11 314:23 315:3,7 bold 198:7 bonus 214:20,23 bonuses 214:18 285:23 books 261:14 boring 192:16 200:12 born 296:23 borrow 216:15,19 borrowed 255:3 borrowing 216:19 borrowings
TEL: (020) 7067 2900
FAX: (020) 7831 6864
MENGI v HERMITAGE
7 NOVEMBER 2012
PROCEEDINGS DAY 2 [Page 332] 247:25 248:12 249:18,25,25 250:5,8,15,21 250:25 253:18 253:20,22,25 255:17 256:3,22 257:9,13,16 258:15 259:2,16 260:2 265:7 323:10 common 205:13 214:10,12 287:4 287:6 commonsense 213:20 220:13 communicate 188:14 272:20 273:8 community 184:6 184:7,9 194:17 265:21 companies 184:10 184:20 201:8 271:8 312:10,13 312:15,19 313:11 314:3 company 201:9,10 231:13 243:13 243:16,16,17 244:18 245:2 247:6,23 248:2 248:2,6,6,24 249:8,13,23,24 250:12,13,16 251:12,14,18 252:2,7 254:4,5 255:2,12 256:7 256:12,17 257:10,21,22 258:13 259:14 260:16 261:13 262:23 266:16 284:14,18 304:3 309:3 313:20 314:12,16 315:4 326:4,5 company's 186:24 213:10 255:8 261:14 283:17 283:19 comparing 206:9 compensation 279:23 competent 185:18 complainant 323:12 complained 323:14 complaining 292:12 294:11 297:6,8 320:6 320:14 323:10 325:7 complaint 294:18 294:20,23 325:20 complaints 294:22 295:6 304:7 complemented 314:18 complete 232:3 235:8 completed 326:11 completely 186:22 186:22 complicated 251:5 compliment 202:15 complimentary 202:12,13 compliments 202:14 241:20 compromise 243:8 compromised 250:20 concealing 172:7 172:11 concern 180:18 225:21,25 226:3 290:22 concerned 180:21 182:2 208:23 227:22 304:12 306:24 320:11 concerning 249:10 concerns 285:21 conclusion 166:10 174:23 293:4 condone 225:9 conduct 166:7 220:8 conducted 243:12 conducting 227:18 confer 314:10 315:2 conference 197:2 216:25 217:3 218:2 219:23 265:15 270:5 confined 194:17 291:24 292:10 confirm 242:17 255:17 257:19 confirmed 290:13 conflict 256:11 304:10,12,19 322:25 323:8,22
298:21 309:23 called 187:21 197:18 200:25 205:8 208:9 233:22 240:7 243:13 264:4 272:11 277:6 283:4 288:8,24 288:25 296:19 304:4 323:16 calls 204:16 239:18 242:11 274:6 281:25 289:6,9 campaign 181:3 275:8,14,25 Canada 267:2 capacity 284:15 303:14 305:16 305:17,17 card 200:5 302:13 care 253:4 267:20 275:10 carried 217:21,23 236:16 287:7 carry 181:7 224:9 262:11 268:5 296:16,19 297:3 Carter-Ruck 163:21 329:12 case 166:17 173:25 176:25 177:17,20,22 179:17,17 180:10,17,19,20 180:21,22,24,24 180:25 181:13 181:18,22 182:13 196:19 203:23 232:24 239:2,22 242:13 261:24 262:14 265:12 271:22 275:9 278:12 284:4 285:8 288:5,7 289:5 289:11 291:6 297:6 302:23 304:10,15,16,24 305:10,11 306:17 307:3 310:17 312:24 313:6,22 315:5 315:19 316:15 316:17 317:2,4 321:9 324:5,22 324:22 326:10 329:19 cases 177:3 cash 214:18,20,21
214:23 215:5 219:12 255:7 285:23 287:11 cause 166:18 causes 201:15 cautious 179:9 CCM 202:18 cease 314:16 ceases 313:7,24 314:16,25 ceilings 164:17 Central 215:13,18 certain 168:25 237:25 290:2 303:20 307:8 certainly 172:5 219:2 222:20 229:15,20 232:23 233:3 289:17 292:16 Chadema 197:22 197:22 chair 265:7 chairman 189:11 194:7 198:5,18 198:19 208:18 223:6,21 237:5 243:15 245:3 247:25 248:12 249:15 250:21 253:14,19,20 256:22 257:8,15 259:2,5,17,25 281:21 284:14 300:24 307:8,21 chairmanship 243:10 244:10 249:16 257:10 Chairman's 251:24 chairperson 234:25 250:2 256:4 258:15 challenged 190:9 challenges 196:25 championing 250:11 chance 177:4 223:15 262:6 269:14,14 Chancery 163:16 chances 224:11 change 185:20 250:22,23 254:5 269:11 281:3 changed 286:25 changes 185:23 channel 220:20,25 227:5,6 channels 209:15 charge
225:4 242:2,3 charitable 295:12 Chart 329:15 chasing 297:10,10 chat 282:2 chatting 205:23 cheaply 199:14 check 174:25 175:6 252:19,24 256:15,19 257:19,25 260:4 261:11 checked 186:19 319:20 320:2 Cherer 163:15 Chief 172:24 228:10,12,16,19 228:20,22,25 229:6,12 230:6 children 268:8,8 268:13,15 chop 266:23 chopping 267:4 Christians 194:15 church 193:22 194:3,9,11,14 churches 194:16 circle 254:19 circumstances 269:17 Citizen 234:22 277:11 Civic 197:24 198:18 claim 163:1 175:18 176:7,8 claimant 163:10 163:19 287:7,10 claiming 294:8 clash 174:8 clause 313:12,13 314:9,19,20,22 315:2 clauses 312:14,21 314:18 clean 258:16 clear 174:13 200:10,11 242:10 257:14 265:3 274:22 287:23 clearer 314:19 clearly 165:3 200:8 228:20 323:19 clerk 329:16 clients 278:12 clipped 302:25 close 225:8 281:24
288:11 closely 271:6 closeness 261:25 closer 265:11 298:7 closing 326:23 clue 186:13,15 196:6,6 282:8 cock 236:5 coffee 168:18 282:2 colleagues 205:14 267:2 college 192:3 collision 237:2 column 198:3,22 combat 227:10,24 228:4 come 171:8 205:9 205:12,13,16 206:11,20 208:4 209:10 210:18 211:5 212:15 214:13 215:7 231:10 242:19 250:5 276:6 281:5 282:4 288:17 303:14 310:5 320:14 323:22 324:24 328:20 comes 184:17 209:7,9 214:10 265:16 284:23 295:18 coming 222:7 234:11 241:23 274:16 320:13 commended 198:5 commending 198:10 comment 171:16 230:4 255:19 commissioner 167:11,17,23 168:10,13,16,22 169:8,16,18,22 169:23 170:2,4 170:15 171:4,15 171:17,24 172:18 205:4,6 280:7,15,16,24 281:2,19,25 282:11,14,19 293:22 307:16 308:13 Commissioners 168:19 committed 221:12 committee 243:15
LONDON, WC2A 1HP
TEL: (020) 7067 2900
FAX: (020) 7831 6864
MENGI v HERMITAGE
7 NOVEMBER 2012
PROCEEDINGS DAY 2 [Page 333] 185:10 242:6,7 250:3 252:10,18 252:20,23,25 253:23,25 255:25 256:24 257:5,6,7,17,18 257:24,25 259:8 259:9 261:10,11 264:19,20,21,23 277:20 316:3 dated 252:8,14,22 277:21 281:19 283:9 284:23 307:18 dates 261:12 Datoo 233:11 238:23 239:8 240:6 242:12,19 282:24 283:7 284:25 285:3,4 287:22 288:2,7 289:6 293:7 308:24 309:9 310:6 daughter 272:5 day 163:23 198:14 199:12,21 209:9 212:12 231:10 233:22 234:4,6 234:13 265:20 266:14 276:3,14 279:25 280:13 284:11,24 294:13,14,18,21 309:17 326:19 days 220:4 241:12 276:20 day-to-day 184:25 deaf 266:13 deal 194:15 211:4 252:7 256:9,10 258:16,17 259:24 260:19 260:21 289:20 308:23 309:2 321:10,13 323:11 328:12 dealing 177:20,22 dealt 174:16 247:22 249:11 Dear 285:2 December 208:16 274:17 280:7 320:10 decent 268:21 decide 192:18 206:4,14 220:11 220:16,17 221:6 327:25 decided 184:9 233:22 244:25 245:15 249:23 250:14 decides 273:18 deciding 228:16 decision 209:4,5 214:4 220:17 221:5,7,8 224:9 253:22 270:16 270:17 284:19 327:12,18 328:4 decisions 178:9,13 221:15 declined 325:13 defamation 275:8 279:9,21 297:2 297:5 defamatory 220:9 224:5 defence 275:12 329:13,19,20 defendant 163:12 163:21 275:7 288:4 304:10 323:9,13 definitely 219:20 delayed 319:14 delegate 184:9 268:3,4 269:10 269:10 delegated 271:9 271:11 delegation 268:4 deliberately 172:7 172:11 delisted 256:18 demands 183:3 demoted 238:12 denying 221:25 department 284:18 depending 280:3 depends 274:4 describe 217:19 228:22,25 229:6 described 197:24 description 228:2 desk 327:8 destined 269:7 detail 294:4 details 170:6 215:17,18,22 274:7 deter 269:17 determination 313:24 314:25 determine 189:21 191:17 determines 313:7 develop 236:23 developments
LONDON, WC2A 1HP
323:24 324:2,18 324:20,21 confused 264:22 316:2 confusion 322:2 connected 280:5 304:16 consider 201:19 considerable 184:19 192:15 196:3 210:18 253:11 considered 201:24 321:15 322:9,18 323:7 conspiracy 181:2 conspiring 248:23 constant 237:24 constitute 275:14 constituted 275:8 constitution 312:22,22 constitutions 312:13 construction 194:3,8 consult 304:9 consulted 255:21 255:22 258:15 258:17 259:25 contact 166:2,4 contained 177:11 contains 196:18 contemplating 235:17 content 165:23 192:18 204:7 212:10 213:18 231:3,16,22,24 232:12,24 233:5 233:6 236:25 237:7 contents 165:8 168:7 222:10 continent's 188:16 continued 164:3 contract 244:20 contrast 202:21 contribute 194:8 controversy 248:16 279:7 convenient 204:11 conversation 239:7 290:7 conversations 239:5,13 convince 245:11 convinced 178:13 178:14,14,15 cooked
246:9,11 copied 310:7,8 copies 302:16 328:25 329:2 copy 174:10,19 243:18 244:4 283:16 286:19 317:25 318:14 327:8,9 329:8 329:21 corner 254:10 300:8 301:19 305:25 corporate 306:13 313:19 314:11 315:3,7 Corporation 216:6 correct 177:19 227:12 228:2 237:13 285:16 322:14,16 324:7 corrected 186:5 correction 197:8 correctly 187:24 290:19 correctness 164:23 correspondence 295:3 corrupt 198:20 217:15,16,19 226:22 270:25 corruption 197:3 198:8,9,22 217:2,3,9,12 222:5,15,17 223:9 225:10 226:4,18 227:10 227:13,18,24 228:4 248:18 269:12,13 270:4 270:11,12,22 cost 219:6,7,9 254:22 260:16 costs 327:14 Council 243:10 244:10 245:4,7 245:15,24 246:23 249:12 counsel 164:16 179:10 181:25 182:5,14 183:16 222:14 227:17 267:8 269:22 284:13,17 297:14 298:12 300:21 303:10 306:13 311:2 counsels 196:18 count
236:19 counting 186:15 277:3 countries 190:19 269:13 country 168:24,25 168:25 169:2 181:17 192:9 198:22 217:9 232:20 250:10 265:22 288:22 296:11 couple 282:24 305:21 courage 210:18 211:5 course 172:2 175:13 182:17 183:2 201:20 270:3 274:8 276:3 279:25 280:3 282:23 292:6 298:18 313:25 327:14 court 163:1,16 164:16 173:2 180:11,17 181:14 204:9 229:16 261:18 262:9 278:19 281:8 293:2 294:1 295:1 296:1 297:1 298:1 309:11 311:13 327:7 328:20,25 courtesy 204:16 courts 163:2 296:11 cover 193:11 208:24 coverage 192:20 193:4 196:8 208:19 209:2 289:24 290:2,8 290:12,24 291:13,15 292:2 292:5 294:19 325:8 covered 165:18 206:6 crazy 269:2 create 287:13 credit 244:6 criminals 165:3 criteria 196:10,11 critical 177:3 198:25 201:16 201:22,23 212:25 215:23
226:14 248:22 criticise 292:2 criticised 198:19 224:18 225:13 227:23 295:17 295:24 309:20 criticising 190:22 225:14 criticism 225:22 226:6 crop 168:17 cropped 282:6 crops 169:3 cross 181:8 195:3 195:18 196:7 199:17 200:12 203:17 213:19 214:9,13 296:16 296:19 318:19 crossed 240:20 cross-examinati... 164:3 174:17 243:22 261:21 264:5 265:14 279:13 cross-examined 270:5 281:10 312:2 crusade 196:25 270:10 CUF 197:18 culprits 226:5 Culture 224:21 225:11 cup 168:17 282:2 282:2 currently 197:22 D D 163:23 167:10 213:6 233:8 236:10 252:9,12 254:14 281:14 281:16 283:2 301:16,17 307:12,13,15 308:21 315:16 daily 198:14 277:4,7,9 Daima 202:16,20 damages 176:8,12 182:6 damaging 275:2 295:22 damper 220:16 dance 326:25 Dar 175:21,25 176:4 192:12 262:20 265:17 288:18 date 167:19 175:6
TEL: (020) 7067 2900
FAX: (020) 7831 6864
MENGI v HERMITAGE
7 NOVEMBER 2012
PROCEEDINGS DAY 2 [Page 334] 237:4 employee 201:3 employment 233:15 240:20 empty-handed 269:4,5 enabled 312:15 enclose 170:9 enclosed 318:2,7 enclosing 168:4 281:21 enclosures 173:13 173:17,18 encourage 267:14 ended 254:5 ends 245:6 266:3 enemy 248:17,19 248:20 engage 321:10 engagement 274:7 English 175:18 176:8 178:18,19 178:24 179:2,3 179:9,10,14 181:25 182:5 265:3 277:3 280:2,3 enormous 184:6 193:4 enquiries 298:3 ensure 180:18,20 190:3 259:17 260:12 entered 259:25 entirely 189:12 193:20 208:22 210:8 220:17 242:23 247:13 274:22 entitled 182:22 194:9 entourage 278:19 entrepreneurs 188:17 entrust 312:15 314:10 315:2 envelope 302:6,10 environment 243:10 244:9 245:3,6,14 249:12 267:4 environmental 245:12 246:23 episode 290:18 equipment 298:4 equity 248:9 equivalent 278:23 Eric 210:11 286:6 eroding 198:20 Ery 290:19 es 175:21,25 176:4 192:12 262:20 265:17 288:18 ethical 250:6 251:3 256:10 ethics 255:6 EU 205:6 evening 326:23 event 279:18 303:25 events 196:20 273:16 everybody 194:9 262:12 327:13 328:23 evidence 163:23 164:15 167:3 210:19 211:5 238:25 241:24 242:13,20,21 245:20,21 256:13 273:8 288:4 289:5 322:13 323:4 326:11 exactly 218:21 259:19 281:22 284:12,22 289:25 EXAMINED 299:3 example 175:5 201:25 243:9 295:20 examples 195:4 202:7 exceed 217:15 Excellency 168:9 168:12 169:12 170:9 225:17 280:15 282:10 282:13 293:22 307:20 exception 184:12 184:14,25 185:15 187:4 exceptional 184:23 exchange 248:7 excluding 277:4 excuse 234:18 executive 189:11 194:6 281:21 307:21 executives 215:13 215:19,25 216:3 exercise 183:7 exhibit 243:18 261:20 existed 231:14 existence
LONDON, WC2A 1HP
184:6 devote 193:4 devoted 292:6 devotes 192:22 diagonally 302:17 dictate 190:7 191:2 difference 291:11 different 178:21 183:6 193:3,17 195:10 198:17 199:14,16 210:10 229:16 230:16 236:24 237:6 242:24 276:18 282:15 296:22 difficult 311:13 dinner 208:17,21 diplomacy 205:9 205:16 direct 203:24 209:19 285:6 310:14 directed 215:23 233:23,25 directing 310:18 direction 298:11 directly 223:20 233:4 director 185:3 213:7,8,12,14 214:7 218:22,22 230:19,25 233:4 234:16 236:15 238:2,12 241:7 241:8,10 256:16 256:17,20 260:11 271:14 271:19 283:4,10 284:25 285:2,3 293:8 303:15,16 303:21,24 304:2 304:5 306:14 309:9 311:2 313:2,7,8,17,23 313:25 314:5,5 314:8,8,11,13 314:15,15,17,21 314:24,25 315:3 315:5,6,9 318:9 318:16 319:22 320:4 321:2 323:7,23 324:15 324:19 directors 213:25 214:3 250:17 253:3 256:8,20 257:12 259:14 272:4,6 303:11
312:15,16,19,24 313:10,10,16 314:3,10,22 315:2 directory 298:17 dirty 266:17 disabled 266:18 disappointed 172:13 disapproved 311:3 discard 329:20 discarded 329:23 disclose 225:10 disclosed 183:2 261:17 262:4 disclosure 181:18 182:22 discounted 255:7 discuss 168:24 169:4 171:22 247:16 280:12 282:3,5 326:10 discussed 169:7 231:21 245:4 274:9 discussion 178:14 287:8 discussions 206:5 disease 192:24 267:20,21 dispute 164:7 165:10 167:4 168:21 169:9,17 170:18 172:15 179:12 203:12 273:22 274:13 274:25 290:12 291:23,25 292:6 292:11,11,13 293:16 304:13 304:14 324:9,16 distance 221:3 distort 200:9 distressed 296:12 divider 299:18,23 dividing 221:5 DIVISION 163:1 doctor 241:18 document 168:6 175:3 217:17 229:17 244:2 246:4 258:18 259:23 272:15 272:16 273:4 286:17 299:10 299:14 302:6 329:22 documentation 246:3,14,24,25
247:4 documents 181:17 183:3 244:15 246:6 253:3 257:19 261:17 261:21 262:3 281:4 283:2 286:22 329:11 329:16 doing 166:15 268:16 284:9 304:11 310:21 dot 254:12,18 doubt 218:19 235:9 Dr 241:9 drafted 176:15,17 draw 278:16 dreamt 234:18 dressing 283:13 dropped 319:22 320:4 dropping 267:7 drugs 190:17,19 190:19,20 269:19 due 182:17 282:23 E E 163:23,23 256:25 258:21 Eardley 163:19 174:8 175:10,15 179:4 182:23 298:16 Eardley's 299:15 earlier 255:2 268:2 274:12 285:9 287:12 293:4 294:25 316:17 319:2 early 197:16 216:8 easier 327:13 easy 266:2 eat 266:8,18 268:11,13 Ebbick 329:14,21 economic 205:8 economy 168:25 edit 238:13 editing 229:8 editor 165:15,17 195:18 203:9,15 206:4 220:17 221:16 222:7 224:8,9,10 228:10,12,16,19 228:20,22,25 229:6,12 230:6 231:10 233:20
234:4,21 235:16 238:19 301:23 315:12 317:25 318:16 322:10 editorial 208:8 213:7 221:3,5 221:16 222:23 228:8 230:18,24 231:3,16,22,24 232:3,5,5 233:4 233:15 234:10 234:16 236:15 236:25 237:7 238:2,12 283:10 285:3,6,16 310:15,24 311:10,15 editorials 237:24 editors 183:8 188:15 189:5,7 191:2,17,18 194:25 195:25 196:5,5,10 199:8,10,18 200:14 201:18 202:15,24 203:6 203:13,20 209:19 210:9 211:9 212:10,20 213:11 222:3 234:25 235:4 276:19 283:17 287:9 296:16,18 297:4,10 303:11 education 265:24 effect 176:7 233:16 240:6,12 291:21 309:19 310:14 effected 254:2 Effectively 283:12 effort 183:9 267:16 268:7 efforts 198:20 202:19 225:17 Egyptian 205:2 eight 190:10 276:17 either 168:17 210:3 218:13 219:12 246:24 279:23 288:3 325:3 email 163:17 emancipate 265:25 emphasising 194:7 employ 200:20 employed 192:2
TEL: (020) 7067 2900
FAX: (020) 7831 6864
MENGI v HERMITAGE
7 NOVEMBER 2012
PROCEEDINGS DAY 2 [Page 335] 311:9 founder 229:24 four 176:13 220:4 271:18,19 272:7 fourth 198:22 260:9 fray 199:12 free 275:21 297:20 freedom 232:3 frequent 186:7 friend 169:18 225:8 316:2 326:25 friends 239:16,18 240:2 288:9,10 288:11,11 326:14 friend's 316:5 frightened 240:17 240:18,19 front 175:3 187:8 197:24 198:18 228:8 237:24 253:8 264:5 297:19 299:17 310:12 312:5 frustrated 270:20 270:21 full 172:14 198:4 215:16 287:11 300:4 317:24 fuller 328:8 fully 268:3 full-time 201:3 fun 208:7 function 200:9 functions 190:3 193:5 194:14 fund 183:24 funds 248:9,14,24 funny 276:25 298:8 further 192:7 217:11 236:23 254:23 future 236:7 285:8 310:16 G G 163:23 gala 208:17,21 gang 279:8 general 275:23 276:3 284:13 300:20 303:10 311:2 generally 294:23 295:6,7 generous 214:14 287:7 genetically 243:11 244:11,19,25 245:8,15,17,22 245:24 246:5,21 246:25 getting 193:16 195:14,17 224:11 234:18 247:8 253:22 294:21 327:3 give 168:9 175:17 175:25 177:9 179:11 182:9 184:8 188:14,15 194:9 195:4 210:19 211:5,18 214:18,21,23 215:5,16,18 223:15 238:25 241:22,23 242:5 242:6,13,20,21 256:15 266:2,8 266:20 267:12 269:21 273:17 281:11 285:23 289:5 291:14,17 294:4 298:13 302:8 304:5 306:13,25 314:13 325:3 given 165:14 179:2 182:17,23 185:19 189:18 192:12 209:13 209:22 210:2,6 221:20 222:5 266:3 308:23 309:2 317:11 329:10 gives 283:12 284:20,20 287:16 328:16 giving 179:9 194:10 201:14 214:20 267:17 291:13,25 292:10 322:24 323:6 glad 204:9 glance 173:23 275:17 go 167:10 171:19 174:23 178:15 179:15 186:15 186:23 187:9 189:8 192:7 193:12,21 195:19 196:15 198:13 202:14 206:5 207:2
175:16 176:6 existing 232:5 expand 209:3,4 expansion 208:25 expect 210:3 217:23,25 218:22 220:15 226:6 273:4 expectations 208:20 expected 171:22 195:25 expense 215:15 expensive 215:14 experience 297:14 experienced 323:20 expert 185:17 experts 184:22 explain 181:4 183:15 184:3,4 190:15 199:2 205:8 227:16 233:21 249:21 251:8 268:14 323:18 325:24 explained 271:3 explanation 203:11 265:6 express 203:25 expresses 175:10 264:10 expressly 288:4 extending 195:6 external 304:9 321:10 extravagant 196:3 extravagantly 194:18 extremely 179:9 191:9 215:14,20 eyes 299:4 e-mail 327:5,6,16 329:6,13,21 F F 259:10 face 179:10 241:19 242:16 280:22 faced 265:22 facility 224:6 facing 217:9 fact 172:12 174:14 192:21 193:9 200:2 226:22 237:23 244:24 245:8 280:20,23 294:11 297:25 319:11 320:9
facto 313:24 314:25 facts 300:14 319:20 320:2 fail 213:11 283:18 Failure 191:7 faint 298:3 302:15 fair 223:14 262:4 262:4 288:2 fairly 241:2 289:25 faiths 194:16 fake 190:19 false 210:4,5 279:15 287:14 287:15 familiar 210:10 311:10,14 family 269:7 far 180:21 222:11 222:20 264:15 283:18 285:21 288:20 293:23 295:5 306:24 311:22 327:12 farm 167:25 168:21 169:9,17 243:13 244:11 245:2,9,18,23 245:25 246:2,16 246:22 247:2 274:8,13 278:20 290:12 304:13 324:15 farms 168:4 173:3 281:22 282:16 307:22,25 father 296:24 favour 200:10 favours 199:22 feature 204:15 February 185:11 185:16 186:6 188:3 278:3 317:24 feed 268:7 feel 228:18 242:19 266:14,20 267:21 296:14 322:25 feet 324:24 fell 225:19 felt 296:12,12 fight 189:10 266:25,25 269:12,13 270:4 280:18,18,18 fighting 270:12 figure 236:4 figures 235:19,20
235:22,24 file 167:8,8,9 173:15 177:7 187:6 196:14,15 208:15 213:4,5 213:5 217:7 226:9 229:18 231:6 233:8 236:10 243:2 249:6,8,10 251:17 264:5 272:13,15,15 274:18,20 281:12,13 283:2 286:3,18 289:13 289:22 293:13 299:6,17 301:7 302:23,23 304:24,25 305:5 305:6,8,9,10,10 305:10,12,14,15 305:16 306:17 307:3,11,11,12 308:20,21 312:5 312:6 315:14,19 315:20,21,22,24 316:12,15,17,19 316:21,25 317:2 317:4,5,7,12 321:25,25 329:22 filed 316:25 317:12 files 167:9 322:2 329:10 filmed 218:3,5 final 277:18 Finally 262:12 291:16 finance 184:23 241:7,8,9 255:9 265:24,24 finances 184:20 financial 184:22 236:24 find 164:20 165:22 169:21 169:25 170:6,12 170:13,16,22 201:17 226:6 232:8 234:4 236:9 242:7 243:2 244:14 257:11 266:18 268:16 281:5,11 286:6 304:8 315:13 finding 253:21 fine 289:11 finish 256:6
273:19 328:14 fire 269:16 firm 261:5 first 167:3 191:7 195:5 208:5 217:8 228:7 229:19 230:3 234:7 236:13 239:9,10 243:14 244:15 250:12 261:22 265:14 271:6 272:14 273:3 275:11,11 275:17 282:17 282:25 283:18 283:23 286:24 293:13 299:20 302:7,22 308:4 310:5 fistula 267:19,20 fit 285:15 five 204:14 217:16 flap 299:5 flick 277:19 float 211:25 212:5 Floor 163:15 174:4 flow 250:3 255:7 fly 280:8 focus 290:19 follow 228:24 243:20 256:21 295:8 followed 197:2 220:20 230:2 following 212:12 243:18 248:3 284:24 305:22 309:17 follows 253:18 256:2 food 268:8,10,15 Forbes 187:24 forgery 264:11,14 forgotten 276:10 form 270:6 formal 168:18 forth 189:19 282:5 295:21 Forum 234:25 forwarded 282:13 322:8 found 201:24 245:12 251:13 255:4 319:20 320:2 321:9 foundation 193:22 194:3,10 311:7 founded 292:8
LONDON, WC2A 1HP
TEL: (020) 7067 2900
FAX: (020) 7831 6864
MENGI v HERMITAGE
7 NOVEMBER 2012
PROCEEDINGS DAY 2 [Page 336] 293:22 307:16 308:13 higher 284:18 highest 188:18 highly 198:25 220:9 224:5 323:20 hindsight 228:18 historical 255:9 hits 199:12 HIV 266:8 hobby 207:13,14 208:5,6 295:21 hold 197:17 Holdings 326:2 hole 188:21 190:8 194:6 195:10 199:25 207:3,8 236:18,19 255:15 312:12 319:19,24,25 holes 191:13 homes 267:23 honestly 187:2 224:14 281:2 hoo-ha 262:5 hope 180:11 182:18 224:8 258:21 261:15 266:8 267:19 285:7 299:11 310:15 327:25 hoping 245:5 304:17 hospital 241:3,7 241:11,12,14,15 241:18 242:12 242:14,15 hostile 213:22 hot 297:19 hour 224:4 271:17 276:5 house 163:15 269:16 276:6 HQ10D04585 163:1 huge 217:9 human 266:15,16 266:20 hundreds 195:19 294:12,15,17 hungry 268:10 hurt 279:7 296:12 husband 240:19 240:24 288:17 I idea 179:16 188:11,12 213:12,17,22 218:25 222:10 328:18 329:18 identify 170:21 IFL 260:24 ignorance 170:18 ignored 227:8 ill 298:2 immediately 192:25 219:13 319:21 320:3 implicitly 288:3 important 164:15 177:3 184:3,16 184:24 212:2 253:8 268:15,18 319:4 importing 190:20 impossible 295:3 impression 186:21 improper 224:25 227:8,9,23 improve 208:19 209:2 230:22 231:24 234:9 inaction 225:16 225:21 inaudible 182:20 188:19 196:7 197:10,12 208:4 214:12 216:13 218:12 221:3,4 224:8 227:14 228:24 230:22 231:25 240:16 249:17,25 255:4 256:8,10 267:2 268:4 276:15 323:10 incident 242:4 274:8 included 173:15 173:17 Including 230:21 inconceivable 170:17 171:25 173:7 223:5,20 230:9,11 235:12 239:14 Inconveniently 258:18 incorporated 312:14 independence 203:9 232:6 285:7,16 310:15 310:24 indexing 329:5 India 269:18,19 indicated 183:13 255:24 indication 211:18 indirectly
LONDON, WC2A 1HP
206:5 207:2 208:16 213:5,6 217:14 220:18 222:12,23 226:10 231:6 232:9 235:15 238:17 242:25 256:5,25 257:24 258:24 261:24 265:10,13 266:4 267:13 268:9,11 268:13 270:16 270:18 275:6,23 277:18 282:3 292:21 298:10 298:14 301:15 301:17 304:21 316:6 317:3 318:13 321:22 God 194:9 195:11 268:16,19 289:3 296:23 goes 180:18 183:7 187:2 198:25 206:19 224:2 229:19 244:6 going 164:19 169:2,22 171:18 174:16 183:5 193:9,10 196:6 196:13 200:19 212:9 213:14 219:7,11 228:9 234:13 238:25 239:21 240:8 247:21 252:6 258:6 269:23 270:19 273:13 274:4 280:21 287:21,25 289:4 289:18 299:10 309:4 327:2,10 327:21 328:5,7 gold 212:2 good 184:11 193:18 201:15 201:18 207:24 211:4 213:22 224:23 225:4 231:14 235:19 239:16,18 240:2 247:6 286:11 288:9 300:19 302:9 308:23 309:2 328:18 329:18 governance 225:4 government 224:23 225:14 225:15,22 227:6
227:9 270:14 277:7,9,10 governments 205:15 225:13 government's 227:4 governor 196:25 grace 296:23 graft 189:10 198:15,21 grateful 328:24 gravest 325:22 great 225:17 greater 198:24 253:4 greatest 182:21 188:17 greatly 224:18 green 253:22 254:12,18 259:4 267:15 greener 235:15 gritty 180:2 ground 324:24 grounds 175:19 group 201:7 213:7 230:18,24 233:15 234:10 234:17 236:15 238:12,18 283:10 284:16 285:3 311:18 Group's 311:10 311:14 grow 244:25 growing 243:11 244:11,19 245:15,19 246:5 grown 245:9,22 245:25 246:21 247:2 Guardian 183:13 183:14,24 187:25 192:15 196:18,24 199:15 209:6 210:17 211:15 212:6 213:7 214:3,14 215:23 217:21 228:7,9 230:2,21 231:12 231:18 232:18 236:23 271:20 276:14,18 277:7 277:21 278:18 279:5,21 283:4 283:10 284:23 287:7 293:8 301:24 303:17 304:6 306:4,8
306:12,14,23 311:3,7 312:14 314:5,6 315:13 317:25 318:10 318:16 321:2 323:7,23 324:15 324:19 325:3,9 329:14 Guardian's 209:14 211:8 278:18 312:22 guess 188:9 288:23 H habit 208:8 Haidery 174:4 half 235:18,21 251:10 276:4 hand 243:22 266:24 287:3 299:4,5,6 327:24 handed 243:24 244:5 249:8 286:22 302:9 handle 280:9 295:2 handling 236:25 237:7 324:5,22 hands 210:8 223:2 223:4 266:4,23 hands-off 208:22 233:2 handwriting 272:25 305:25 hang 171:18 happen 326:22 happened 172:22 185:19,21,22 223:17 225:2 233:21 240:10 240:23 244:24 249:2 250:4,24 252:11 259:24 281:22 282:14 284:10 312:18 happening 166:21 195:25 199:4 204:7 215:22 happens 211:11 223:2 happiness 268:16 happy 238:19,21 242:17 247:13 256:2 harassed 290:21 harassment 290:22 hard 327:8,9 329:8
head 197:18 284:21 headed 167:25 189:10 191:4 278:19 282:15 297:14 329:11 heading 196:24 213:8 headline 188:16 199:21 202:2,4 202:9 276:4 Health 190:18 hear 164:13,15 165:9 204:13 247:8 267:8 269:25 298:18 310:5 heard 173:7 287:19 326:10 heart 265:11 274:16 heave 262:12 held 216:25 hello 242:16 help 170:22 171:16 194:15 194:16 268:17 268:20 302:12 helpful 316:5 329:3 helpfully 312:21 helping 192:23 200:2 hem 183:9 herewith 281:21 Hermitage 163:12 174:10 203:21 224:2,11 292:6 301:24 305:3,5 305:24 315:13 316:15 317:2 320:21,23 323:14 325:3,7 329:13 Hermitage's 165:13 181:16 291:18 294:7 heroes 189:2 high 163:1 164:16 167:11,17,23 168:10,13,16,19 168:22 169:8,16 169:18,22,23 170:2,4,15 171:4,15,17,24 172:18 173:2 205:3,6 279:7 280:7,15,16,24 281:2,19,24 282:10,13,19
TEL: (020) 7067 2900
FAX: (020) 7831 6864
MENGI v HERMITAGE
7 NOVEMBER 2012
PROCEEDINGS DAY 2 [Page 337] 181:5 182:23 183:16 186:24 188:5 193:9,17 195:20,22 197:16 199:3 200:22 201:12 204:10 207:25 208:11 212:23 213:3 222:9 227:17,21 229:17 230:17 237:12 239:19 242:3,9 244:4 245:21 247:9,14 247:19 249:9,22 257:14 262:7,11 267:7 269:21 271:22,24 276:9 276:13,16,20,22 286:22 288:22 293:3 296:4,7 296:10 297:13 297:18,21 298:10,14,22 299:15 301:11 322:5 326:8,17 326:21 327:4,6 327:19,24 328:18,24 329:6 329:9,24 K Kamandera's 285:20 Kamendera 210:11 211:4 212:14 216:21 285:25 286:7 Kamendera's 286:3 Kanaba 241:9,10 241:10 keen 277:16 keep 164:14,17 181:20 199:16 221:3 259:24 305:16 keeper 296:20 Kenya 234:11 kept 287:10 316:21 317:7 318:15 Khan 277:11 kids 267:13 268:11 Kikwete 199:22 Kilimanjaro 267:6,10,15 killed 266:22 269:14 Kimambo 166:14 kind 190:4 273:23 275:10 283:19 298:4 kindly 302:5,8 308:20 knew 170:14,18 180:10 181:14 191:19 203:13 204:7 220:21,24 221:8 240:12 242:15 252:5 know 166:13,16 168:11,24 169:18,19 170:5 170:5,13,14 171:10,12,15 172:2,22,24 173:4,13 176:19 179:25 180:2,4 180:5,6 182:16 184:16 185:11 185:19,25,25 186:3,4,15 187:2 188:4,6,8 189:17 190:2,5 190:6,13,13 192:5,21 193:3 194:24 195:14 195:16,17,25 196:4,10,11,16 197:15,22 199:19 200:16 200:17 202:6,7 202:8,24 203:7 203:16,22 204:22,22 208:2 209:18,23,25 210:15,24 211:11,11,13,14 212:8,20,24 214:5 215:22 216:12 217:14 217:25 218:10 218:11 220:6 221:2,16 222:8 222:11 223:16 227:15 228:17 235:25 237:15 238:16,22,24 239:3,12 241:5 241:6,7,8,8,9,9 241:10,14,20 242:17 246:9,19 251:7 255:12 258:16 265:6,9 265:18,19 267:13 270:10 272:3,15 274:7 275:5 278:10,13 279:5,14 280:19
282:25 individual 193:2 201:7 227:7 individuals 198:24 294:19 indoors 267:22 industry 211:16 240:14 inexplicable 203:19 influence 183:7 202:23 203:5 207:11 inform 169:21 265:2 information 176:13 182:9,10 182:14 183:5 224:21 225:11 308:9,10,23 309:2 info@martenw... 163:17 infrastructure 234:6,8 initial 250:12 ink 302:15 innumerable 195:4 input 207:6 282:21 inquiries 242:8 inquiry 227:18 Inside 307:15 insist 243:25 Institute 190:11 instruct 204:3 instructed 163:19 163:20 204:6 317:12 instructing 177:16 instruction 304:24 instructions 174:2 203:25,25 285:12 327:14 328:2,17,19 insult 214:19,21 215:4,7,12 insulted 215:8 integrity 235:8 238:9 intelligent 169:20 178:7 323:19 intend 268:22 intended 242:12 intending 228:20 229:12 intention 228:21
261:6 intentionally 184:9 interact 168:16 Intercare 249:18 251:19 252:2 253:15 254:21 interest 173:5 184:19 243:17 248:3 256:11 271:4,5 275:25 276:8 279:11 304:10,12,19 323:2,8,22,24 324:3,18,20,21 326:5 interested 270:9 274:13 282:8 309:16 interests 183:12 211:16 235:3 256:11 interference 285:6 310:15 311:11,15 interfering 208:8 310:24 internal 272:16,24 283:3 309:8 interrupt 174:16 intervene 166:23 167:2 261:16 intervened 166:21 243:11 intervention 198:25 237:25 316:6 intimidated 288:3 invariably 205:12 invest 209:4 249:23 250:12 250:16 invested 243:16 248:2,24 249:17 254:3 256:7 257:22 investigate 165:7 165:9,22,24 169:21 246:2 262:6 304:7 321:9 investigated 164:20 166:8,18 279:15 investigation 171:19 investigations 220:9 investment 208:24 209:3,5 243:15
243:16 247:6,23 247:25 248:10 248:12,14,23 249:8,13,17,24 250:5,14,18,21 250:25 251:3,9 251:18 252:5 253:18,20,25 254:21,23 255:9 255:17 256:3,22 257:8,16 258:13 258:14 259:2,16 260:2,12 261:2 261:3,5 265:7 investments 260:7 260:9 investor 165:2 invite 205:16 206:13 involved 172:24 201:17 212:21 246:17,18 265:23 266:5 267:18 324:8,15 325:5 involvement 232:18 266:19 266:19 involves 280:24 involving 174:5 in-between 191:12 iPad 187:3 IPL 260:9,24 IPP 174:3 185:6,7 185:15 186:11 187:15,17 188:2 189:11 194:7 198:5 206:22 208:18,18 213:8 230:19,25 231:3 232:3 233:14,15 236:14,20 237:4 237:5 262:24,24 265:17 272:4,5 273:13 281:21 284:13,17,17,18 284:21 285:3 287:6 300:21 303:10 305:17 306:10,12,13 307:8,21 311:2 326:2 ipso 313:24 314:25 Irish 205:2 irregularly 186:25 issue 168:23 169:7 170:20 184:6
213:18 228:7 230:3 245:17 253:9 261:19,24 290:2 293:19 306:4,9,12 issued 256:23 issues 184:23 282:3,7 ITV 197:3 218:8 218:11 220:8,15 222:12 223:16 223:16,21 224:2 224:7 270:6 271:14 311:8 312:14 314:8,8 ITV's 209:14 312:22 iv 253:7 J JAMES 163:20 January 167:19 277:21 281:19 307:18 320:10 320:10 job 171:8,12,14 190:7 221:14,16 224:17 231:3 232:7 236:16 238:18 joins 199:12 JONATHAN 163:20 journalist 191:21 210:18 221:18 journalists 183:8 188:15 202:11 202:18,24 203:7 206:20,21,22 207:21 209:19 214:14 215:6 235:4 285:24 287:6,9 judge 165:21 judges 232:20,21 232:22 judgment 165:8 Julius 229:22 July 233:14 257:3 258:10,22 278:24 jumping 313:22 June 236:10 junior 329:4 jurisdictional 175:18 Justice 163:1,2,6 164:14 172:24 173:10,13,19,22 174:6,22 175:3 175:5,9,13
LONDON, WC2A 1HP
TEL: (020) 7067 2900
FAX: (020) 7831 6864
MENGI v HERMITAGE
7 NOVEMBER 2012
PROCEEDINGS DAY 2 [Page 338] 164:4 170:23 269:15 327:19 looking 164:16,25 187:21 197:16 202:14 225:2 254:16 258:8 302:6 315:14 looks 235:3 236:15 253:7 278:6 286:24 Lord 164:9,18,20 164:22 165:6,7 165:15,17 166:5 166:8,13,16 167:3,7 168:9 168:16,23 171:21 172:17 172:25 173:4,16 174:12,13,20,25 175:4,8,12,14 175:20,25 176:9 176:14 177:7,11 177:19 181:4,6 181:15,20 182:21 183:15 183:18,25 184:3 184:3,5,22 185:5,9,13,17 186:7,9,25 188:8 190:17 191:11 192:2,11 192:16 193:14 193:24 194:4,15 194:20 195:14 196:4,10,16 197:18 199:2,4 199:6,16 200:6 200:11,12 201:2 201:5,9,11,17 201:23 202:14 203:2,9,15 205:8 207:24 208:3,13,24 209:18 211:11 211:17,20 212:10,13 213:2 215:12 216:2 222:11,12,13,20 222:25 223:8 227:14,16,20,20 228:14 229:18 230:15 232:19 234:20 242:5,7 243:24 245:24 246:18 247:7,18 249:23 251:4 252:10 254:25 256:2,13 257:17 265:21 267:17 267:25 269:10 269:13,24 270:19,21 271:2 271:15,23,25 272:3 273:21 275:12,19 276:17,21,25 277:12,25 278:15,22 279:2 279:11,17,19,24 280:4 281:17,24 282:12,20,22 283:6,8,11,15 283:24 285:11 285:14,17 287:5 287:12,20 288:6 288:9,13,19,24 289:10,16 290:6 290:15,17 291:10,14 292:16,22 293:6 293:9,11,17,19 293:25 294:6,17 294:20,25 295:8 295:15,18,25 296:6,8,9,11,14 297:6,17,20,23 298:21 302:2 303:23 316:2 317:4 323:18 326:7,22 328:13 Lordship 173:20 173:23 174:3,17 174:21 182:25 192:19 193:16 204:13 242:6,6 247:7 249:7 261:16 269:24 271:4 285:20 286:21 290:4 297:23 298:6 326:12 327:2,3 327:17 328:11 328:16 329:7,19 losses 183:24 184:2 loss-making 184:21 lost 195:15 lot 189:9 250:15 270:2 322:2 lots 297:4 328:24 Louise 301:24 lower 188:21 190:8 199:25 207:3,8 236:18 236:19 312:12 Luhanga 214:6 lunch 249:8 266:11 Lutheran
LONDON, WC2A 1HP
280:25 285:18 288:12,13,13,20 288:21,22,24 289:12 292:20 295:6 296:16 298:5,9 299:14 301:8 303:18,24 305:23 310:5 311:22 318:6 319:15,17 320:25 324:8,9 324:11 325:5 327:23 328:11 knowing 297:9 knowledge 287:4 287:6 known 235:6 knows 170:13 Kwayu 238:22 239:8 289:4,11 L lady 238:9 lady's 188:25 Lane 163:16 language 234:2,3 277:3 laptop 187:3 large 185:6 193:15 201:14 largest 197:5,19 197:23 252:2 late 216:8 319:5 latest 256:19 laugh 269:8 launch 233:22 236:5 271:25 law 179:2,9 323:16 lawsuit 325:2,21 lawyer 175:21,25 176:4,5,9,10,15 176:15,17,22,24 177:5,9,12,15 177:16,18,20 178:11,18,21,23 179:6,7,24 180:7,8,16 214:6 284:15 304:9 305:17,17 321:10 323:20 lawyers 176:21 177:19 179:8 181:21 202:10 262:20 304:21 lay 320:13,17,17 321:4,7 laying 193:22 194:2,10 lead 166:10 leader 197:5
leaders 190:25 leading 197:23 234:21 309:20 learned 241:15 316:2,5 326:14 326:25 329:4 learnt 167:4 lease 246:15 leave 170:17 238:13 247:10 250:23 259:22 260:3 261:13 262:8 268:22,23 269:4 271:25 293:20 297:19 306:16 327:16 328:23 leaving 269:24 291:21 led 178:8 left 259:21,21,23 264:6 269:18 286:18 309:3 left-hand 302:21 306:17 307:3 legal 165:2 176:19 176:20 284:18 297:13 320:13 320:18 321:15 321:19 322:9,18 322:25 325:12 325:15 legally 312:14 lend 328:25 length 190:24 192:15 193:11 196:3 255:18 lengthy 173:17 191:9 204:15 letter 167:11,17 169:12 170:9 175:20,25 176:9 176:14,14,16,17 176:20 177:11 177:13,14,16 233:11 235:9,10 236:9 238:10 243:18 244:15 245:5,6 246:3,7 249:5,6,14 250:8 252:8,16 252:21,22 255:25 258:12 259:7 264:9,9 264:10,12,25 265:4 281:18 283:21,25 284:23 294:7 301:23 302:2,10 302:12 303:14
303:15,23 304:6 307:15 317:14 317:14,17,19,25 318:3,4,9,15 319:18 320:12 320:14,20,24 321:3,7,15,18 322:8,9,18,18 323:9 324:12 325:6,20,25 letters 203:20 246:9,10,11 294:13,14,18,20 294:23 295:4,9 305:23,24 315:12 316:18 316:24 317:11 321:12 325:23 Letu 276:14 Let's 198:13 199:20 298:14 lie 211:3 212:13 212:17 216:2,2 216:24,24 238:10 241:25 287:12 289:10 lied 238:20 lies 211:3 287:20 life 186:8 188:19 192:22 267:19 268:21 269:4,4 light 253:22 310:8 limited 227:17 231:18 232:18 233:24 234:12 243:13 283:10 300:21 303:10 306:10,12,14,15 306:23 line 195:3,18 196:7 199:17 200:13 203:17 213:19 214:9,13 234:10 lines 253:13 Lipumba 196:24 197:5,17 198:9 198:10,15,18,23 199:12,21,25 200:5 liquid 251:14 list 198:15,19 199:13 257:11 275:11 276:11 276:12 Listen 209:18 listening 176:4 183:3 239:4,7 239:13 litigants 174:5 little
183:12 185:20 198:8 241:23 251:5 254:12,18 265:11 290:19 302:12 315:15 live 266:16 268:20 lives 296:13 327:13 living 288:12 loan 216:12,23 London 163:3,16 177:4 179:17 180:19,20,22,24 185:18 288:25 long 204:24 262:13 269:22 269:25 270:13 270:13 271:22 290:7,8,18 311:5 longer 244:25 246:17 256:17 257:12 259:16 327:21 Long-Term 260:7 look 165:21 169:23 170:8 172:14,19 175:2 175:5,10,22 184:23 185:6,14 186:24 187:6 191:4,12 194:5 195:9 196:14,14 198:3 199:20 201:25 202:7,16 213:4,20 217:5 224:4 225:16,24 225:25 226:9,17 226:25 229:19 233:8 236:9,17 237:18 244:14 246:6 247:15,17 251:16 252:9,12 253:17 254:8,18 255:14 257:11 258:18 259:10 259:14,19 260:7 260:14,18,23 261:22 268:22 275:6 276:5,7 277:23 278:19 284:9 285:18 286:2 290:24 291:12,12 296:2 312:3 313:13 317:20,23 321:12,20 322:8 322:17 326:18 327:21 looked
TEL: (020) 7067 2900
FAX: (020) 7831 6864
MENGI v HERMITAGE
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PROCEEDINGS DAY 2 [Page 339] 181:1 182:1 183:1 184:1 185:1 186:1 187:1 188:1 189:1 190:1 191:1 192:1 193:1 194:1 195:1 196:1 197:1 198:1 199:1 200:1 201:1 202:1 203:1 204:1 205:1 206:1 207:1 208:1 209:1 210:1 211:1 212:1 213:1 214:1 215:1 216:1 217:1 218:1 219:1 220:1 221:1 222:1 223:1 224:1 225:1 226:1 227:1 228:1 229:1 230:1 231:1 232:1 233:1 234:1 235:1 236:1 237:1 238:1 239:1 240:1 241:1 242:1 243:1 244:1 245:1 246:1 247:1 248:1 249:1 250:1 251:1 252:1 253:1 254:1 255:1 256:1 257:1 258:1 259:1 260:1 261:1 262:1 263:1 MENGI-RAMP... 264:1 265:1 266:1 267:1 268:1 269:1 270:1 271:1 272:1 273:1 274:1 275:1 276:1 277:1 278:1 279:1 280:1 281:1 282:1 283:1 284:1 285:1 286:1 287:1 288:1 289:1 290:1 291:1 292:1 mention 279:22 290:4,16 294:2 297:23 314:20 mentioned 196:19 223:8 257:12 270:3 280:14 293:24 mentioning 255:15 message 196:5 messed 261:4 met 210:13 Michael 177:6 microphone 299:7 middle 191:12 194:5 195:9 237:18,20 302:15 Middleton 166:2 203:21 246:8,11 246:15,20 279:9 280:15 289:24 289:25 290:4,8 290:11 305:23 316:12,19 317:5 320:19,22 325:25 Middletons 291:17,24 292:10 297:5 324:10 Middleton's 165:3 165:13 167:5 275:2,15 miles 227:15 million 235:18,21 236:3 253:9 254:24 267:11 mind 172:8 186:21 277:19 277:22 295:19 296:20 308:20 mine 175:5 191:23 195:7 272:25 306:20 328:25 329:17 mining 211:16,16 211:19,21,25 212:2,2,5 Minister 202:3 224:21,23 225:8 225:11 Minister's 226:14 minute 184:4 318:4 321:24 minutes 204:11,15 222:2 328:16,22 misprint 250:3 misquoted 207:14 207:15,18 208:2 misremembering 237:14 mistake
LONDON, WC2A 1HP
193:22 194:11 194:14 luxurious 215:20 lying 237:9,10,12 237:16 238:5,7 238:8,15 M mad 245:11 246:24 main 290:20,22 mainstream 277:6 major 257:7 majority 251:25 making 200:2 206:16 243:23 266:20 Makura 188:22 malign 275:25 man 167:22 178:8 210:22,24 240:13 267:16 271:4 284:19 320:14,16 323:19 manage 184:14,25 313:19 315:4 management 184:11,14 243:10 244:10 245:12,14 249:12 261:4 314:12 managers 186:25 managing 185:3 203:19 213:7,12 213:14 224:8,8 231:10 233:20 234:21 235:16 237:25 238:19 283:4 284:25 285:2 293:7 301:23 303:11 303:15,16,21,24 304:5 309:8 312:16,16,19,25 313:6,10,17,23 314:3,5,8,10,13 314:15,16,23 315:3,5,9,12 317:25 318:9,15 318:16 320:25 322:10 323:6,23 324:14,19 mandated 234:2,3 Mangi 296:19 Manji 174:9 176:7 180:10,25 181:13,18 manuscript 302:21,22
March 259:12 294:8 302:19 303:8 316:4 318:5,14 322:8 325:25 mark 295:2 marked 274:19,20 301:7 marketing 214:6 Marten 163:15 mass 197:2 material 243:22 283:2 matter 174:15 176:3 179:3 193:9 214:20 225:19 244:7 246:14 248:16 274:16 286:18 304:8 306:10,12 306:23 310:23 319:4 321:11 323:11 326:12 328:11 matters 177:8 178:7 182:24 212:10 232:11 232:24 233:5,6 238:2 249:11 265:11 Mauggo 211:14 212:9 Mbono 168:4 281:22 282:16 307:25 MD 213:19 meal 254:6 255:2 mean 183:19 205:21 209:3,3 229:8 240:15 241:21 264:24 265:3 270:11 275:15 306:8 319:14 means 182:7 193:18 222:21 227:15 245:24 307:11 308:19 meant 294:14 306:24 meda 207:17 media 185:6 202:3 206:6,14,22,23 207:13,13 208:5 208:6,7,18,19 208:22 221:13 223:3 224:25 227:9,12,23 228:3,5,6 230:13,25
231:17 233:15 233:21,23 234:12 235:6 236:14,15 240:13 271:4,5 273:13,14,19 285:3 295:21 297:4 mediate 280:16 mediation 172:21 medication 298:2 meet 204:18 205:15 208:20 272:6 280:16 meeting 168:2,15 168:20,22,22 169:3,5,6 206:18 274:16 280:6 281:6,20 281:23 282:5,6 291:6 293:22 307:20 324:10 meetings 168:18 226:3 270:19 271:16 member 209:6,7 250:21 251:2 255:16 265:7 members 238:22 253:17 membership 202:18 249:16 memo 213:6 283:3 283:23 285:3,4 285:9 293:5 309:8 310:7,9 310:12 memorandum 309:8 memory 247:17 men 319:21 320:3 320:13 Mengi 163:9 164:2,4,19,22 164:24 168:2 170:19 171:25 178:7 181:8 183:6 186:12,23 187:4 188:16 189:10,14 190:10 191:5,8 191:15 193:2,9 193:18 194:7 195:13 196:9,15 196:16 198:5,15 198:19 199:13 199:21 200:2,7 202:3,9,17 203:12,14,25 204:16 205:15
206:13 207:25 208:21,23 209:10,10 210:10,19 213:16 214:11 214:15 215:11 220:13 221:25 222:9,14 223:3 225:23 230:10 230:24 231:19 232:10,13 234:16 236:11 238:3 243:8,12 243:17 244:19 245:21 247:14 251:6 252:25 253:19 255:23 257:14 259:5,15 262:5 264:3 265:12 267:7 269:21 270:3 271:3 272:5 273:12 274:19 274:21 275:14 275:15 277:13 281:15,20 282:18 287:3 290:24 291:5,11 292:17 293:4 294:1 295:1,10 296:1,4 297:1 297:11,13 298:1 300:24 303:18 304:11,13,18 305:18,19,24 306:21 307:21 307:22 308:15 311:5,22 316:24 316:25 317:8,11 317:12,18,20 319:12 321:12 321:16 322:9,10 322:19,24 323:25 324:2,5 324:8,23 325:2 325:4,5,7,12 326:4,10 Mengi's 172:15 261:25 299:22 301:2 308:10 325:19 MENGI-PRICE 165:1 166:1 167:1 168:1 169:1 170:1 171:1 172:1 173:1 174:1 175:1 176:1 177:1 178:1 179:1 180:1
TEL: (020) 7067 2900
FAX: (020) 7831 6864
MENGI v HERMITAGE
7 NOVEMBER 2012
PROCEEDINGS DAY 2 [Page 340] 256:14,15 257:16 261:15 264:8 NICOL's 255:9 night 219:23,23 219:25,25 220:3 261:23 Nipashe 276:14 276:17 278:4,7 278:23,25 279:6 279:22 293:14 311:8 nitty 180:2 Njobo 272:11 Njovu 200:23 201:2 211:7 nonsense 181:24 182:3 233:19 234:15 normal 184:16 216:19 220:8,20 318:24 normally 271:17 272:7 274:6 279:12 280:3 282:3 294:25 Norwegian 205:7 nose 178:8 note 168:11 169:9 169:10,11,12,14 170:16 171:23 173:16,20 174:3 177:7 185:20 186:9 212:23 260:7,23,23 282:15,18,21 284:24 306:21 306:23 328:9 notes 163:15 168:4,8 170:7 170:10,24 171:3 171:6 172:14,17 172:19 206:16 281:21 282:9,10 282:11,12 307:25 308:5 notice 287:16 319:18 noticed 319:5,5 notoriously 217:16,19 226:22 November 163:4 293:14 324:6 number 173:25 174:2 185:7 193:15,18 194:13 230:3 256:15 258:19 272:15 286:14 295:11 299:23 numbering 329:20 numbers 301:18 nurseries 267:13 267:14 Nyerere 229:22 N-J-O-V-U 211:7 O o 163:23 294:12 oath 168:14 171:6 objection 231:21 obliged 213:11 283:17 326:15 observations 193:5 292:10 observe 213:11 283:18 observer 166:11 obviously 168:20 229:11 271:3 327:11,12 occasion 195:11 280:20 293:24 293:25 295:16 295:23 occasionally 214:18 occasions 165:25 206:15,21 occupy 265:20 occurred 166:20 October 213:8 252:14 256:22 283:9 284:24 293:7 offer 170:24 233:14 255:10 offered 171:7 238:18 office 169:15 174:3 197:17 265:16 300:23 301:2 312:25 313:17 officer 201:6 offices 265:17 official 213:10 283:17,19 oh 213:21 231:17 289:3 291:12 302:4 305:9,12 okay 227:20 254:17 268:3 289:11 303:2 old 329:22 once 165:11 223:19 227:14 266:11 274:3 293:15
LONDON, WC2A 1HP
229:10,10,11,13 230:5,7,10,11 misusing 202:3 mixed 261:10 mobilise 250:11 268:10 mobilised 268:7 modernise 236:22 modified 243:11 244:11,19,25 245:8,15,17,22 245:25 246:5,21 246:25 moment 185:10 185:14 186:5,11 193:2 200:23 205:13 206:10 207:24 240:5 247:6 268:18 274:17 281:11 288:12 291:22 299:12 315:14 321:21 324:25 327:15,16,21 328:19 money 192:23 201:15 209:8,9 209:10 217:18 250:12 253:11 254:5 255:3,4 266:2,2,3,9,15 266:20 267:12 267:17,23 268:2 268:17,17,19,19 268:20,22,24,25 269:2,3,6 327:14 month 235:18 236:3 274:2 289:3 318:10 months 252:16 289:3 318:17 319:3,9 Morando 200:25 morning 261:18 265:14 268:9 270:4 276:5 281:4,7 285:22 287:24 309:11 309:19 326:6 327:7 329:3,10 Moshi 166:14 171:19 173:2 245:4 246:2 mosques 194:16 mother 296:24 mountain 267:10 move 165:12 173:10 183:5 247:5,7 297:21
298:7,10 moved 173:2 236:25 250:25 260:13,17,19,22 moving 204:14 230:15 242:24 269:17 Msharma 213:21 283:5 285:2 293:5,7 309:9 309:21 310:6,14 MSL 231:17,17 MTanzania 202:8 202:9 multiply 202:7 Mushi 262:22 MW 302:23 303:5 N n 163:23 294:12 naked 216:2,24 267:11 287:20 name 197:14 200:23 217:17 265:6 299:20 329:12 named 188:16,18 names 217:17 300:4 naming 198:7 nasty 287:13 nation 229:24 234:10 national 194:2 197:6 216:5 223:9 243:9,16 244:9 245:3,6 245:14 247:6,23 248:23 249:7,11 249:12 251:18 naturally 193:16 nature 189:22 NBC 216:5,12,14 216:18,22 near 247:8 253:7 253:13,17 nearly 279:6 necessarily 168:18 183:18 183:19 necessary 200:9 228:8 294:5 303:12 310:20 need 176:12 193:12 194:7 199:9 209:8 218:2 230:9 283:12 292:21 302:11 307:23 321:5 326:25 327:14 328:3
needed 182:9 198:24 needs 210:18 needy 269:8 negative 211:15 211:18 212:15 212:18 negotiations 219:3 neither 199:7 200:13 240:19 313:10 neurologist 242:14 never 166:23,23 166:23 168:8,14 171:2 186:24 187:16 204:5,9 210:13,14 212:10,10,14,17 213:22 216:14 223:16 232:17 239:14 241:17 242:15 243:7 246:18 249:4 250:23 255:21 255:22 261:17 270:23 271:23 271:24,25 275:4 277:22 282:12 291:8,14 295:8 302:5 new 230:13 233:20 234:18 235:13,16 238:13 247:10 247:15 news 198:14 200:9 218:22 277:7,9 310:19 newspaper 187:14 187:15,18 190:24 197:25 198:10 207:15 229:9 233:20,22 234:18 235:13 235:16,17 236:6 236:6 238:13 271:7 279:25 301:24 320:7,9 newspapers 164:5 166:7,21,25 183:7,8 185:3,7 189:13 190:4 191:15 192:18 192:20 193:4 194:13,18 195:13 196:8,20 198:13 200:8 201:13 202:4,22
203:6,12,20 204:3,14,15,24 206:24 210:7 212:6,19,24 229:21 230:21 232:18 233:3 236:23 274:23 275:9,21 276:2 276:10,23 277:3 277:4,5,6,14,16 277:16 279:3 290:13 291:5,25 292:2,13,18 294:9,19 295:12 295:16,23 303:12 325:8,9 325:11 326:2 newsroom 211:8 newsworthy 201:19,24 206:4 273:9 Ngalo 202:11 Ngolo 177:6,22,23 Ngolo's 177:7 Nguma 167:4,25 168:11 169:5,20 169:24 170:3,4 170:11,17,22,24 172:2 173:8,24 174:3 185:3 202:11 214:6 231:8 233:11 263:3 265:15 281:18 282:10 282:19,23 284:11,19 285:5 285:10,12 298:21 299:2,4 300:1,2 301:1 302:1 303:1,25 304:1 305:1 306:1 307:1 308:1,4,20 309:1 310:1 311:1,24 312:1 312:4 313:1 314:1 315:1 316:1,6 317:1 318:1,20 319:1 320:1 321:1,20 321:23 322:1 323:1,4,19 324:1,24 325:1 326:1,8 327:1 328:1 329:1 Nguma's 262:25 284:12 nice 201:14 NICOL 250:6 253:14 255:17
TEL: (020) 7067 2900
FAX: (020) 7831 6864
MENGI v HERMITAGE
7 NOVEMBER 2012
PROCEEDINGS DAY 2 [Page 341] 297:4,7 people's 276:23 percolating 202:23 203:6 perfectly 227:12 298:19 performance 255:9 period 216:8 233:3,15 236:14 236:16,20 permit 328:5 perpetrators 198:21 person 170:23 184:5 203:15 214:8 235:6,8 296:13 313:19 314:11 315:3,7 320:17 325:20 personal 191:23 253:4 267:5 303:6 personalities 237:25 personally 221:12 224:15 236:20 239:15,17 295:5 327:12 pharmaceutical 189:12 190:11 252:2 260:16 Pharmaceuticals 260:9,24,24 pharmacists 189:11 phase 270:14,14 philanthropic 192:25 photograph 205:22 259:4 photographer 205:18,20 206:2 physical 266:19 physically 267:24 pick 187:3 picking 196:12 picture 229:16 258:24 piece 278:23 302:12,22,24 pieces 176:13 pile 329:11 place 208:5 234:7 235:15 placed 260:25 plainly 209:17 210:4 261:24 plan 236:24 planning 193:14 plans 236:22 plant 267:9,12,15 269:19 planted 166:11 267:11 planting 166:24 plastic 302:4,6,10 play 284:15 playing 200:5 Plaza 174:4 please 167:8 178:7 181:5,11 195:20 195:22 206:10 214:19 215:4,7 220:19 222:7 233:6 240:10 241:17,25 243:3 243:3 244:4,21 256:6,15 264:6 272:13,23 274:18 298:21 301:14 302:23 304:24 306:22 308:21 309:5 311:24 314:9 325:23 329:9 pleased 204:13 233:14 pleasure 217:4 pledge 208:21,23 plunder 217:11 pocket 166:15 214:24,25 261:18 Pocock 167:22 168:23 290:11 291:4 324:10 Pocock's 281:6 289:14 point 192:19 193:2,17 195:24 200:7 201:20 204:10,11 207:25 209:21 209:21 210:10 230:9 243:14 269:23 293:12 295:10 312:18 321:7 328:13 pointing 190:23 points 297:15 policy 185:12 214:10 274:24 274:25 283:17 283:19,21 311:10,14,19 politely 164:16 299:16 political 197:23 205:10,10 225:3
293:15 open 251:16 264:5 302:23 304:24 305:6,8 315:15 315:21,22,24 316:14,15 317:2 opening 326:17 openly 202:18 251:18 opinion 178:20 179:17 180:12 188:19,20 193:6 193:8 203:2 210:23 221:22 221:24 224:7 240:15 256:10 opportunities 165:12 opportunity 171:7 221:20 222:6 236:13 opposed 251:11 opposite 173:25 174:2 188:21 236:18 301:6 312:12 319:19 319:24,25 opposition 197:5 197:18,19 orally 176:22,23 order 170:15 298:19 ordered 319:21 320:3 orders 188:14,15 ordinary 250:9 253:9 276:3 organisation 170:21 190:18 230:23 234:12 264:8 Organisational 329:15 organised 208:17 original 238:17 255:16 299:10 302:2,5 316:3,4 318:15 ought 289:20 outcast 269:15 outcry 250:15 outlets 202:3 208:19 outset 183:12 outside 304:21 outstanding 191:13 overall 322:5 overnight 328:3,3 329:2 oversee
231:3,15 231:22 250:22 over-stated 255:10 owned 249:19 277:8,11 326:2 owner 202:23 223:6 292:17 owners 211:2 ownership 276:11 o'clock 247:7,19 P P 163:23 page 167:10,15 172:19,19 173:16,21,21,23 173:24 175:5 187:9 189:8,9 191:4,12 192:7 192:9 193:21,23 194:5 195:5,9,9 196:14,23 198:14 199:11 199:11,21 200:4 200:4 201:25 202:2,2,8,16 204:25 207:3 208:16 213:6 217:7 226:10,20 227:2 228:8 229:19,19 230:2 233:8 236:10,11 236:18 237:18 237:18,19,21,24 243:4,5 251:22 251:24 253:7,13 253:14,17,17 254:8,8,9,11,12 254:18,19,21 255:7,7 257:2 258:9,18,24 259:11,14,19 260:7,18,23 272:16,22,23,24 273:2,3,5,7 275:13,17 277:19,20,22 278:3,17,23,25 279:4,6,22 281:13,14,16 283:2 284:9 286:9,14 289:21 299:20 300:7,8 301:14,18,20 302:21 305:21 305:22 306:16 306:17,21 307:15,24 308:2 309:5,17,17 310:12 313:14
313:22 315:17 316:6,18 317:3 317:14,20,23 318:13 319:18 319:19,24 321:13,13 322:3 322:4,4,17,17 pages 173:14 192:7 195:6 258:19 305:21 305:22 paid 214:17 219:9 219:11 220:12 221:10 224:3 255:11 270:7 Pakistan 205:6 Palestinian 205:2 paper 228:14 230:22 234:22 236:7 279:12 284:23 302:13 302:24 papers 167:2 182:16 187:17 196:10,11 200:21 201:18 201:19 211:20 234:10 275:19 275:20 276:6 277:2 296:2,2 paragraph 172:20 174:23 175:6,10 182:10,15 191:7 193:25 198:4 200:4 207:4 209:11 226:17 226:19,25 231:9 237:19,20 242:25 243:4,5 247:22 255:14 262:2 272:14,15 272:17,23 273:7 273:19 275:12 286:9,15,24 287:4 289:21 293:13,24 307:2 312:3,8,9 317:24 319:23 319:24 321:14 321:22 322:4,6 paragraphs 190:10 194:6 207:3,8 282:17 pardon 182:21 271:10 316:5 320:22 321:20 328:15 Parham 167:11 167:17,22 168:15,20 281:7 Parliament
197:19 part 164:11 193:21 196:25 200:8 216:19 247:11 301:5 particular 206:4 particularly 184:5 184:20 185:18 201:14 240:13 partly 207:5,11 249:19 party 197:6,18,19 197:23 202:20 pass 165:8 176:9 294:25 307:10 passed 168:11 175:20 176:14 318:17 passes 294:21 passing 285:19 passiveness 227:4 pastures 235:15 path 237:2 patriotic 165:2 Pause 242:6 243:3 244:21 302:7 318:4,24 320:12 329:10 Pausing 290:3 pay 181:2 216:15 216:20 219:10 219:12,14 251:13 279:21 320:17 payback 265:23 paying 214:16 255:3 payments 215:5 people 184:11 189:22 190:20 192:23 206:22 207:13,17 211:3 216:21 217:14 217:17,19 221:20 222:5,15 222:17 223:8 225:3 226:3 245:4 250:9,11 250:13,15 254:3 256:6 258:3,6 265:25 266:5,8 266:12,15,17,18 266:23 267:15 267:18,18,20,25 268:3,4,6,14,17 268:20,23,24,25 269:8,8,11,15 270:25 273:13 294:23 295:6 296:15,22 297:3
LONDON, WC2A 1HP
TEL: (020) 7067 2900
FAX: (020) 7831 6864
MENGI v HERMITAGE
7 NOVEMBER 2012
PROCEEDINGS DAY 2 [Page 342] 248:4 proud 254:7,25 255:5,13,13 261:3 prove 246:25 provide 169:8,16 326:15 provided 174:11 177:7 178:6 182:11,14 215:14,20 provides 312:24 313:6 provision 260:14 260:15,25 PSI 190:9 public 190:22 201:5 215:15,20 217:18 223:18 248:6,9 270:16 270:18,19,19,20 274:6 319:22 320:4 Publication 213:9 publications 209:14 214:15 230:19 231:4,14 231:16,23 232:4 publicise 216:25 227:13 228:3 publicity 197:2 273:15,17 publish 201:13,16 211:15 212:14 215:23,24 237:24 published 212:24 216:22 230:3 283:13 291:22 publishing 274:25 pull 256:8 261:15 punch 188:21 190:8 191:13 194:6 195:10 199:25 207:3,8 236:18,19 255:15 312:12 319:19,24,25 pupils 191:14 purely 183:3 purple 302:15 purpose 282:6 287:11 purse 215:21 pursue 176:11 315:11 pushed 270:25 put 165:16 185:14 196:14 199:8,10 199:19 203:24 204:4 213:4 220:17 222:6 223:19 226:7 227:21 231:13 231:24 237:2 238:9 244:8 261:7 264:3,7 270:6 274:18 280:20 285:22 287:24 289:4 292:18,19 299:11,16 307:11 312:6 315:16 putting 181:12 195:24 202:18 308:20 Q QC 163:19,20 quality 163:15,16 230:23 quantum 176:8 quarter 224:4 Queens 297:14 QUEEN'S 163:1 question 165:11 181:10,11 183:6 185:14,24 186:2 192:17 203:23 203:24 211:4 212:20 216:17 222:4,4 223:19 227:17,21 228:15 232:13 239:10,19 244:2 244:8 255:23 260:3 261:16 262:3 264:3 265:13 267:18 269:6,22 275:23 277:13 278:17 280:8 282:17 285:21 287:21 287:22,23 289:6 289:7,19 290:11 291:22,23 308:4 310:5 317:10 326:13 questions 199:10 271:5 272:8,9 280:5 282:24 291:19,21 292:22 293:2,3 300:19 309:4 quickly 275:24 311:14 328:11 328:17 quit 251:3,14 quite 173:17 177:18 179:7
LONDON, WC2A 1HP
225:3,12 politicians 270:21 poor 266:6 268:6 268:20 299:5 position 164:6,10 172:15 225:13 234:8 250:22 284:12,20 292:14 323:11 positive 211:21 266:8 280:13 293:21 positively 280:17 possibility 182:8 possible 174:8 253:4 325:22 possibly 179:2 200:11 218:14 229:11 276:4 292:12 324:25 pounds 254:24 poverty 192:23 207:12 265:25 power 320:15,16 321:4,8 powerful 210:22 210:24 211:2 240:13 powers 312:16 314:12,13 PR 201:5 practice 318:24 318:25 practise 221:4 praise 295:14 praising 194:19 precaution 179:11 preface 308:22 prefer 247:9 327:12 preference 210:2 210:3 preferential 209:13,22 210:6 prejudicing 232:5 preparation 284:4 prepared 170:25 201:20 282:12 282:12 preparing 170:7 present 164:25 205:18,20 206:2 206:15,21 presented 178:19 presenting 229:16 presents 198:10 president 190:9 190:11 199:22 199:24 205:10 206:6,7,9,11
212:15,18,25 213:9,23 217:10 225:7,18,19 229:22 232:20 232:22 270:22 283:14,20 310:19 President's 217:12 press 189:24,25 190:2,3 191:22 191:24 192:2,2 192:4,4 196:2,4 197:2 200:15,22 201:5 202:24 203:7 206:13,15 206:17 211:7 216:25 217:3,7 217:21 218:2,6 218:7,7,19 219:23 220:14 221:9 225:23,25 226:2 230:9 270:5 272:9 273:10,12,22 290:8 301:2 pressing 181:17 270:24 press's 289:24 presumably 307:8 presume 185:9 213:25 218:9 220:5 pretty 318:19 prevents 278:19 price 163:20 164:3,19 173:10 173:12,15,20,23 174:7,13,21,23 175:10,15 181:6 181:10 182:21 182:25 183:5,19 188:6 193:10,14 193:20 195:20 195:21,24 201:13 204:3,10 204:13 207:24 208:13,15 213:3 213:4 222:25 227:21,22 229:18 230:18 237:14 239:11 239:13,21 242:4 242:5,10,23 244:8 246:6 247:5,12,21 249:10 253:10 255:10 257:20 261:21 262:11 262:12 273:2
274:12 278:9 279:8 281:12 284:9 286:10,13 289:20 290:23 291:3,16 294:11 295:11 296:4,6 297:5 298:7 309:4 312:2,3 313:1 314:1 315:1 316:1,5 317:1 318:1 319:1 320:1,22 321:1 322:1,6 323:1 324:1 325:1 326:1,6 326:12,22 327:1 327:22 328:1,2 328:13,15,25 329:1,4,7,18 Price's 261:18 primary 191:10 principles 243:8 print 230:25 231:3,13 232:3 233:15 236:15 285:3 printed 231:17 278:7 283:16 private 227:7 privilege 174:15 304:2 322:10,19 325:12 privileged 303:25 probably 167:10 278:6,12,18 302:12 307:11 328:17 problem 190:15 190:17,21 209:8 217:9 219:5,8 220:12,18 225:16 226:5 234:6 250:2 252:10,11,18,20 252:23,25 253:23 256:24 257:6,7,18 273:18 297:24 298:11,12 327:15 problems 265:22 procedure 179:3 179:10 243:25 proceeding 182:25 328:7 proceedings 175:16,23 178:19,19,24,24 179:13,14 292:15 300:2 process
175:19 255:19 262:18 produce 245:13 245:20,21 246:10,13,14,24 247:3 259:23 282:10 302:3 produced 249:5,6 261:18 262:13 Prof 198:10,22 199:25 profession 195:3 professional 221:17 224:17 235:3 professionally 195:2 professionals 200:20 224:14 272:2 Professor 196:24 197:5,17 program 267:5 programme 197:3 219:21 221:6,19 222:20 267:9,11 projects 265:23 265:25 266:4 prominent 202:17 204:19,21 promised 169:13 170:8,9 208:19 260:19 promising 209:2 225:20 prompted 274:24 pronounce 202:8 proper 243:18,25 248:3 262:6 proposal 249:18 249:24 250:5 proposed 231:15 280:16 289:8 proprietor 200:10 223:22 Prosecutions 319:22 320:4 prospectus 252:9 252:12 253:8 254:16 256:23 prospectuses 253:3 protest 243:15 248:2 257:21 258:2 260:20 261:8 protested 250:6 252:4 258:14 protesting 250:18 protocols 243:18
TEL: (020) 7067 2900
FAX: (020) 7831 6864
MENGI v HERMITAGE
7 NOVEMBER 2012
PROCEEDINGS DAY 2 [Page 343] 308:24 309:14 remind 167:19 247:23 257:20 remove 299:10 repaid 216:23 repay 216:11 repeated 320:9 repeatedly 291:16 repeating 181:21 replaced 167:22 329:20 replied 295:5 reply 192:16 203:20 220:7 223:15 294:12 294:24 295:7,8 320:19,24 325:20 report 189:18,22 190:9 191:15 193:21 194:18 196:3,23 206:19 207:4 208:17 211:25 212:5 232:11,22,24 250:24 251:17 251:20,20,21 254:13,13 257:2 258:8,21 259:10 reported 190:23 192:15 195:12 198:13 199:11 199:15,20 202:21 206:5 208:18 232:10 232:14 233:5 234:5 320:6 reporter 166:14 319:19 320:2 reporters 212:14 reporting 191:17 233:4 237:5 292:13 reports 165:24 166:9 184:13 194:13 196:20 202:20 204:15 204:16,24 206:24 259:11 287:9 represent 173:25 175:23 representative 320:13,18 321:4 321:8 represented 178:24 179:13 297:13 reprimand 283:13 309:25,25 310:2 310:20 request 170:20 270:7 required 179:11 202:25 203:13 254:23 requirement 315:10 requires 211:4 268:14 resented 255:5 residences 215:14 215:20 resident 279:7 resign 249:16 250:14 255:23 256:14 258:2,6 264:8,11 resignation 235:11 236:9 243:19 250:8 252:17 259:7 resigned 243:14 247:25 250:8 253:21,24,25 255:22 256:3 257:10,13,15,21 261:8 resisted 232:9 respect 164:9 165:6 174:15 182:22 195:2 202:15 203:9 285:8 310:16 respectfully 178:6 respond 325:16 325:17 responding 226:14 response 265:18 279:14 293:18 309:16 responses 291:24 responsibile 181:8 responsibilities 243:9 responsibility 170:21 199:9 222:12 253:5 254:3 responsible 165:23 166:5 199:5,6,17 200:13 203:17 286:20 296:17 296:20 result 172:20 212:11 results 191:8 resume 298:19
168:8,14 171:2 171:6 175:12,14 185:20 186:9 187:13,14,16,17 187:20 189:11 193:24 195:23 210:16 217:17 244:21,22 247:11 253:25 265:3 275:9,18 275:19,20,21 276:2,4,6,8,24 277:2,24,25 R 279:9,11,25 R 163:23 280:2,4 283:12 racism 200:5 283:25 284:5 racist 199:13 285:18,20 200:6,7 290:23 291:3 radio 209:15 292:21 295:25 raise 231:5 250:12 307:21 309:11 290:14 309:11,19 310:9 raised 248:9 280:7 310:9 314:9 290:2,11 293:19 reader 277:14,16 raising 253:10 277:16 rallies 270:19 reading 171:7 Rampton 163:19 176:6 186:23 174:25 182:20 187:3 278:13 183:2 195:23 300:20 197:14 203:23 reads 172:21 226:6 239:9,12 173:2,25 174:5 242:2,4,21 188:22 191:8,14 243:24,25 244:6 192:12 195:11 261:16,24 262:7 198:8,21,24 262:10 264:2 199:22 202:10 269:24 271:23 207:12 213:9 272:3 273:3 217:10 249:19 276:23 278:10 254:21 272:20 281:13 286:11 273:8,20 285:4 286:14 287:2 287:10 289:4 292:22 ready 256:16 296:7,8 297:23 real 218:19 298:13,21 299:3 reality 223:4 299:4,14,16 really 277:13 300:1 301:1,12 reason 165:24 302:1 303:1 166:15 173:4 304:1 305:1 177:9,11 180:8 306:1 307:1 180:15 181:12 308:1 309:1 181:16,20,22,25 310:1 311:1,24 231:12 238:10 316:2 320:21 238:15 296:14 326:17,20,25 319:8 320:19,23 327:5,10,20,23 324:14 329:15 328:10,14,15,16 reasonable 280:22 328:22 329:17 319:15 rate 264:10 reasons 180:10 280:22 181:23 205:11 reach 204:11 251:3 reached 184:7 recall 211:25 reaction 284:10 282:17 290:23 284:11 295:16 read 167:5 168:7 RECALLED 193:3 197:8 201:13,14,15,16 201:21,21 212:2 220:21,24 224:14 227:17 251:16,18 260:3 269:22 287:23 292:12 294:21 298:2 316:13 328:10,17 quote 209:12 quoted 248:7
164:2 receive 176:9 received 174:2,8 176:14 302:16 302:19 317:14 318:2,13 323:9 receivership 260:25 receiving 175:20 recite 298:17 reckons 190:18 recollect 290:19 recollection 278:21 recommendation 234:14 256:7 recommended 249:17 record 178:6 300:4 records 245:13 260:4 261:11 recovery 236:24 recruited 233:19 234:16,22 236:3 236:5 237:5 redacted 174:14 175:2,6 reduce 176:12 reducing 176:7 refer 193:18 325:23 reference 208:15 243:23 328:5 references 173:11 referred 193:12 198:7 244:2 referring 291:5 313:12 316:19 325:25 refers 251:18 refresh 247:17 refusal 237:24 refused 224:15,16 260:13 refusing 237:25 regard 200:8 Regarding 289:24 regards 172:10 205:12 Reginald 163:9 164:2 186:12,23 194:7 198:5 202:9,17 231:19 253:18 259:5,15 299:22 300:23 301:2 303:18 307:21 308:15 316:24 317:11 317:18,20
321:12,15 322:10,19,24 323:25 324:2,8 325:4,7,12 326:4 regret 228:23 230:12 regularly 211:8 rejected 238:18 related 255:16 271:6 272:8,8 282:25 relating 181:18 265:23 282:3 relation 232:3 304:6 321:18 relations 168:19 201:5 relationship 172:21 213:16 243:7 249:20 261:25 release 217:7,21 268:6 releases 226:2,2 relentlessly 164:25 relevant 218:22 312:21 relief 262:12 relieved 247:8 religion 194:17 rely 176:20 remain 288:10 311:24 remained 188:6 remains 213:10 remember 187:12 187:23 195:7 197:21 207:20 215:15,21,22 217:23 219:12 222:19,20 231:17 235:19 235:20,22,24 236:4 239:24 240:2,4 241:19 242:16 248:25 249:3 264:22 268:24,24 274:9 274:14 277:23 277:25 278:13 278:14,15,25 279:2,9,23,24 281:4,7,23 284:7 285:25 288:8 289:6,7 289:25 290:7,25 291:2,4,18 293:18,23
LONDON, WC2A 1HP
TEL: (020) 7067 2900
FAX: (020) 7831 6864
MENGI v HERMITAGE
7 NOVEMBER 2012
PROCEEDINGS DAY 2 [Page 344] 292:20 298:10 298:14,18 300:20 302:5 304:23,23 305:9 307:2,24 309:17 313:4 316:18 318:13,14,15 319:18,25 322:6 322:20 328:2,4 seeing 205:10 206:11 222:20 293:14 seek 293:15 seeking 199:22 seen 168:6,7 177:9 177:18 246:4 247:15 252:8 256:21 278:13 283:24 284:3 285:4 295:10,20 303:7 317:17 320:15 sees 253:7 selection 196:18 self-confident 191:4 selling 199:14 Sema 276:14 seminar 192:8,13 send 169:11,13 170:7 185:18 186:9 196:5 218:11 267:14 269:8 319:2 327:16 senior 171:21 sense 179:7 214:10,12 229:8 276:3 324:25 sensible 166:10 sent 169:10,12 171:4 202:10 245:4 282:9,18 282:21 317:18 317:21 319:5 sentence 273:10 324:12 separately 325:23 September 244:16 246:8 262:15 series 164:4 195:5 203:11 serious 180:24,25 208:7 242:2,3 256:17 297:6 seriously 298:2 seriousness 198:9 serve 236:14 served 259:14 261:20 services 208:19 209:2 set 312:21 setting 234:6 settlement 304:7 setup 232:2 seven 195:6 SH 302:23 304:24 305:3 shake 202:19 share 253:10 shareholders 255:16 shareholding 251:25 shares 250:7 253:9 shark 223:8 sharks 197:3 198:8 199:13 217:3,16 222:15 222:17 248:18 shillings 235:18 236:3 251:10 253:9,10 254:22 260:10 279:21 shocked 166:6 shocking 279:8 short 173:24 208:14 247:20 297:21 298:20 328:21 shortly 196:13 274:17 show 170:24 203:14 211:9,21 246:3 250:13 266:6,16 302:7 308:15 showcasing 188:25 showed 280:13 shown 182:24 202:17 211:24 258:9 259:16 279:13 293:4 shows 251:24 side 165:14 168:12 204:4 205:15 206:12 222:6,21 223:10 223:15 250:10 291:17,23,25 292:11 297:8 299:17 302:21 306:17 307:3 327:9,11,17 sides 165:10,18 sigh 262:12 sight 286:24 signature
LONDON, WC2A 1HP
326:6,9 retrieve 308:21 return 297:19 returned 241:2 revamp 236:22 reverse 252:6 259:18 260:19 reversed 259:19 260:12,21,22 revert 287:2 rewards 236:21 re-amended 329:13,19 re-examination 211:24 226:7 292:23 RE-EXAMINED 264:2 rich 269:15 RICHARD 163:19 rid 234:19 ridiculous 198:23 right 164:21 165:4 167:6 171:5 175:22 177:22 178:16 180:13,14,15 186:14,19,22 187:9,25 191:10 191:11,12 194:19,20 197:20 198:11 203:3,4,5 204:17 210:5 211:10,12 212:6 217:12 219:24 226:15 228:18 230:19 231:11 231:18,24 232:14 235:18 235:23 237:18 237:20 244:14 244:20 246:17 247:19 248:10 254:11 261:12 262:11 265:10 269:23 273:10 278:10 279:16 284:13,21 286:14 295:18 299:4,5 301:14 301:17 303:21 304:14,17 306:21 315:11 316:16 317:10 317:13,15,21 318:3,11,12 319:25 321:3,16 323:2,6,8
325:13 326:8 329:12,24 rightly 294:11 right-hand 213:5 300:8 301:18 305:25 rise 175:17 328:19 rises 326:12 risky 269:12 rocket 309:21 role 284:15 room 178:20 265:15 Rosdan 223:9 225:9 rose 207:11 Rostam 248:17 249:4 roughly 289:2 route 228:24 routine 184:12,25 row 297:19 Royal 163:2 rule 244:3 ruling 202:19 rumour 287:19,20 run 255:12 272:2 running 224:14 232:18 302:16 307:25 runs 202:9 282:16 Rwandan 205:4 S S 163:23 saddened 226:25 227:4 safety 290:22 Sakina 233:11 234:8 238:23 282:24 283:7 284:25 285:3,4 287:21 288:2,7 308:24 309:9 310:6,25 Salaam 175:21,25 176:5 192:12 262:20 265:17 288:18 salaried 201:3 salaries 214:16,17 214:17,22 salary 235:19 236:8 Sarah 163:12 301:24 305:3,5 316:15 317:2 sat 319:8 satisfying 236:20 save 261:4 saw 221:10 222:8
222:18 235:15 236:7 256:11 282:12 283:24 284:4 303:18 324:11 saying 164:24 170:9 173:19 176:17,19 185:13 186:18 186:19 191:24 199:16 202:13 206:8 207:5 208:18 209:25 210:2,2 219:18 222:9,22 223:4 224:9 225:2 231:9 236:7 237:13 238:21 239:22 240:8 245:11,17 246:13,13 249:15 252:19 252:23 256:2 257:23 258:2 259:24 261:10 267:8 274:14 285:5 290:24 291:12 308:22 says 166:3 176:6 177:3 188:14,21 188:25 191:5 195:10 198:18 202:16 207:4 209:12 211:7,14 212:14 216:21 224:4 233:14 236:17 246:20 253:14 260:14 275:7 281:19 283:16 285:2,25 300:14 302:19 302:22 306:8 307:20 314:22 315:2 320:12 scandal 215:13,19 scandals 215:16 Schedule 329:11 school 192:3 268:7,9,10,11 268:12,13,14 schools 189:19 265:24,24 267:13,14 school's 191:10 Scientific 190:11 scream 293:20,23 season 245:10 246:22 seat 297:19 second 178:20
182:23 198:3,3 200:4 243:3,14 246:7 247:21 252:2 270:13 299:18,23 301:9 321:18 secretaries 192:4 secretary 189:24 189:25 190:2 191:22,24 192:2 192:3,4 196:2,4 200:15,22 201:5 202:24 203:7 206:13,15,17 211:7 218:6,7,7 218:19 220:14 221:9 272:9 273:10,12,22 301:2 303:6 304:24 315:21 316:10 secretary's 190:3 section 196:17,17 sections 174:14 sector 189:10,12 security 290:20 see 165:19 166:10 167:20 168:13 168:15 172:14 172:17,20 175:15 180:9 181:6 183:14,16 183:21 185:15 186:5 187:9 188:16,21 190:8 190:8 193:25 198:4,5,13,18 203:5 204:24 205:7,10 206:3 206:6,7 207:2,3 207:6 214:8 222:9,21 224:13 224:15,15 230:7 231:8 237:19,20 241:18 242:14 244:24 246:6,15 248:6 249:14 250:24 251:21 251:24 252:9,12 253:2,13 254:2 254:4 256:5,25 257:2 258:8,24 259:4,11 260:24 266:17 273:25 274:3 279:18 281:18 282:15 282:18 283:3,16 283:23 284:10 284:10 285:9 287:17 291:11
TEL: (020) 7067 2900
FAX: (020) 7831 6864
MENGI v HERMITAGE
7 NOVEMBER 2012
PROCEEDINGS DAY 2 [Page 345] 292:18,19 stopped 243:11 244:10 245:19 stopping 217:11 stories 164:4,23 164:25 165:9 166:24 195:19 200:9 201:13 211:10,15,19 213:9 215:23 222:11 story 165:14,17 165:19,21,22 190:14 196:12 198:17 199:8 201:17 211:9 212:11,18 215:24 216:21 222:6,13,21,24 223:10 236:5 283:13 287:13 291:18 Strand 163:3 streets 235:14 strikes 192:9 striking 202:21 strongly 164:6 struck 175:18,24 structured 311:19 312:10 stuck 311:17,20 study 192:3 stuff 201:16,21 234:17 stupid 246:24 style 184:11,14 191:17 subject 313:24 314:24 325:4 submission 174:17 submissions 262:8 submitted 249:18 subsequent 265:7 subsidiary 180:22 substantial 184:2 184:15 substantially 259:9 succeed 175:17 success 166:2,3 successor 281:6 sufficient 182:12 sufficiently 169:20 suggest 171:25 180:8 181:24 185:2 188:13 202:22 204:6 208:22 209:17 212:11 215:5 233:19 234:15 239:25 240:3 241:22 243:19 298:6 329:18 suggesting 184:18 184:19 202:20 242:11 246:11 320:15 suggestion 173:7 231:12,20 264:7 summarise 287:25 summary 286:10 286:16,17 summon 274:5 Sunday 231:10 233:20,23 234:5 234:6,13,18,22 234:22 235:13 235:17 236:6 238:13 276:18 276:18 supervised 248:14 supplied 326:19 326:23 329:2,7 supplying 216:12 support 203:14 225:11 supporting 164:10 217:10 225:15 supportive 164:6 225:6 suppose 240:5 241:4 306:14 324:14 327:15 supposed 181:7 225:4 251:7,8 275:25 Supposing 166:20 sure 179:8 180:19 182:12 204:22 211:24 219:17 219:18 223:17 223:23 267:13 268:10 274:21 295:19 297:15 309:20 312:13 325:15 329:7 surgeon 240:24 288:18 surprised 319:3 surprisingly 166:2 227:8 surrounded 254:11 surviving 266:25 suspect 166:17,18 suspicion 200:19 200:20 211:22 suspicious
LONDON, WC2A 1HP
264:17 300:10 300:12 signed 169:12 170:8 217:8 228:10 229:21 230:6 251:21 255:18 257:3 258:10,22 259:11 262:14 264:15 305:23 308:4 significant 172:11 sill 289:13 Silverdale 167:25 168:4,10,11,12 168:21 169:4,6 169:9,17,19 170:6,10,16,18 171:16 173:5 203:12 243:13 244:11 245:2,9 245:18,23,25 246:4,16,18,21 247:2 273:22 274:8,13 281:22 282:7,16 290:12 291:6,18,25 292:6,11 304:13 304:15,16 305:11 307:25 316:12,18 317:5 324:9,15 Simba 225:8,8 similar 230:4 279:6,22 simple 185:24 216:17 221:2 260:3 simply 164:25 170:4 199:23 200:8 222:16 223:2 233:2 238:11 261:7,8 single 198:23 216:15 singled 273:19 sit 183:2 227:15 266:17 site 245:25 Sitter 193:25 sitting 199:23 situation 181:6,7 205:11 208:20 Six 276:16,17,20 slams 198:15 slant 198:17 slide 302:10 slight 297:24 slightest 270:9 298:8 slightly
319:3 small 329:11 smear 181:2 societies 189:19 society 184:8 266:15 323:10 323:16 solicitors 181:17 196:18 solution 293:16 Solutions 231:18 233:22,23 234:12 solve 298:11,12 somebody 169:13 181:2 200:25 201:3 207:11 267:23 272:19 287:13 294:24 295:7 298:16 302:5 306:16 somewhat 198:17 son 269:18 song 326:25 soon 241:15 sorry 164:13,14 164:18,19 171:11 178:3 188:24 190:2 194:21 195:21 197:11 204:20 205:19 212:23 218:18 220:23 226:21 227:20 230:15,24 232:13 234:2 237:11,13 239:6 239:20 249:10 252:20 254:15 257:14 260:3 267:9 272:18 277:19 280:10 281:15 284:2 290:10 292:4 294:4,5,14 305:7,14,22 306:16 307:10 309:24 311:12 311:13,20 315:23 320:22 321:25 sort 192:20 196:8 208:24 230:4 309:23 329:10 sound 186:14 276:25 source 287:16 south 187:22 205:3 speak 182:3
225:17 240:10 280:14 310:11 311:13 speaker 194:2 speaking 173:9 240:9 261:22 291:4 299:16 327:12 special 219:5,21 220:11 270:7 279:11 specific 290:4,16 specifically 169:3 219:5 speculative 183:4 speech 190:24 191:9 194:2,10 290:7 speeches 194:18 273:16 326:24 spell 178:4 Spelt 178:2 spend 184:6 266:7 266:13,22 267:4 267:19,22 268:6 268:7 269:2,9 271:7 276:4 spent 265:21 sphere 274:2 spine 301:8 spirited 190:22 spoke 170:3 241:22 250:16 293:15 spoken 288:7 Sports 224:21 staff 221:16 222:23 232:5 238:22 246:23 262:25 263:2,4 stage 252:5 303:8 stamp 302:16 316:3 318:13 stance 198:11 stand 180:17 181:14 191:4 198:7 213:10 217:12 228:17 228:18 269:14 269:14 standard 229:21 231:5 standards 224:17 228:9 standing 180:11 289:8 stands 305:3 329:9 stapled 302:13 start 187:3 196:23
236:19 270:10 287:4 312:3 315:17 329:5 started 228:14 241:12 324:5 327:3 starting 189:8 startlingly 226:17 starts 198:4 231:9 state 168:24 209:13 stated 300:14 statement 172:15 193:11 200:2 209:11,17,24 210:16 225:16 225:23 226:14 227:12 242:22 242:25 243:5 247:22 251:6,25 257:20 261:8,19 262:3,13,18 263:6 266:11 272:14 273:7 285:20 286:2,4 286:6,10,11,19 286:23 289:14 289:21 293:12 293:13 294:2 299:20,22,25 300:7,15,20 303:20 307:7 308:23 312:4 313:14 321:14 321:21,23 statements 167:5 196:19 241:17 263:5 292:7 329:14 station 223:7,11 223:12,14,22 224:14,19 stay 188:13 189:6 221:4 250:20 266:13 stayed 175:18 189:5 254:2 260:11 stealing 217:18 Stenograph/Sho... 163:15 step 176:2 steps 270:23,23,23 stick 181:10 stock 248:7 stone 193:22 194:3,10 stop 193:10 245:15 246:5 291:5,13,14
TEL: (020) 7067 2900
FAX: (020) 7831 6864
MENGI v HERMITAGE
7 NOVEMBER 2012
PROCEEDINGS DAY 2 [Page 346] 223:14 224:25 230:13 250:6 265:22 287:2 294:4 310:20 thread 329:16 threat 175:24 178:19,24 179:14 threatened 288:3 threatening 289:5 three 194:5 207:3 207:8 235:18,21 240:3 269:18 272:7 277:18 289:5 293:3 throw 180:16 269:3 ticking 310:3 tight 294:25 time 184:7 189:13 189:20 206:17 217:13 220:8,11 220:16 228:20 229:22 234:13 236:20,25 241:19 242:17 247:20 250:12 250:19,19 251:2 252:6 253:19 265:21 266:2,7 266:13,22 267:4 267:19,22 268:2 268:6,7,14 269:9 270:13,20 271:7 273:23 275:10,18,21 276:2,24 277:2 277:2,24 279:10 279:18 280:17 283:9 285:10 293:19,21 295:2 296:2 311:17 313:16,16 320:9 320:9 326:11 times 165:7 203:16 209:18 240:3 271:18,19 272:7 time-consuming 266:7 timid 285:23 tobacco 243:12,13 244:11,18,20,24 245:2,8,9,16,17 245:22,25 246:5 246:7,21,25 today 207:5,9 229:13,15 274:12 283:24 286:23 295:20 328:7 told 170:4 171:8 171:12,14,14 172:5 173:8 176:25 179:22 182:5 205:14 211:14 212:14 218:13 219:11 219:12,14 220:11,14 221:2 221:9 228:24 229:3,6 231:19 252:6 260:20 263:6 274:12 282:8 285:19 290:3 303:24 304:7 306:22 307:22 315:21 315:22,24,24 317:3,4 324:20 325:16,17 tomorrow 326:6,9 326:11 329:24 329:25 tonight 327:17 top 174:4 195:10 255:14 299:9 305:25 312:6 315:15,20 316:10 317:4 319:19,24,25 329:12 topic 183:6 204:14 230:16 242:24 274:10 289:12 total 216:2,24 238:9 241:25 totally 211:23 236:22 271:9,12 271:13 touch 289:13 touched 289:17 towel 180:16 training 192:6,8 192:13 transaction 256:3 259:18 transcript 163:15 277:22 326:14 328:8,23 transcripts 326:13 transition 254:2 translation 278:9 278:10 translations 278:11 transmitted 270:6 transpired 169:7 treated
LONDON, WC2A 1HP
277:3 278:14 280:2 316:10 Swedish 205:5 Swiss 205:5 swore 321:21 SWORN 299:2 Sylvia 262:22,22 262:24 sympathetic 215:24 216:3,4 system 231:14 T tab 167:10 187:9 196:15 213:6 229:18 231:6,9 233:8 236:10,10 243:2,4 244:14 249:6,14 251:16 252:9,12 254:14 254:15 256:5,25 256:25 258:21 259:10 264:6 281:14,16 283:2 286:3 289:14 301:14 307:12 307:13 308:21 315:16 321:25 Taifa 276:14 take 167:8 176:2 177:4 178:21,23 179:6 180:6 183:13 184:19 188:2,4 193:15 195:5 196:7,11 196:13,15 201:23 204:11 207:2 208:5 218:2 220:14 225:8 234:13,13 236:13 237:6 241:2 247:12 250:21 253:3,4 253:15 263:5 270:22,23,24 276:2,25 288:18 290:18 297:21 298:3 301:7 303:23 307:12 328:5,19 329:4 taken 253:21 275:12 278:6 290:9 297:9 327:20,25 talents 231:13 talk 205:17 227:14 239:23 254:24 266:5,5 266:9,18 269:15 280:21 293:21 324:25
talked 202:11 talking 190:21 208:25 227:16 270:22 312:9 320:18 talks 211:20 tamper 173:6 203:10 213:25 232:20 Tanzania 168:16 190:17,18 192:22 202:16 202:20 205:9,12 205:13,14,17 206:12 210:19 210:22,25 212:6 215:13,16,19 217:2 226:3 227:14,19 234:11 235:4 240:13,20 241:2 248:9 250:9 252:3 266:23 267:2,5,6,9,10 270:11 277:5 281:25 282:4,4 288:17 300:5 Tanzanian 174:9 175:16,23 176:17,22,24,25 177:9,15,16,18 178:18,21,23,23 179:5,6,7,8,13 180:8,15,16,21 210:18 234:21 234:25 235:16 251:10 260:10 Tanzanians 190:9 217:14 250:11 Tanzania's 229:21 tape 218:7,16,20 270:6 TBC 227:5 tea 168:17 282:2 teach 318:25 teacher 192:4 Teachers 192:8 teacher's 192:8 team 246:2 297:14 telephone 163:16 242:11 256:15 289:6,9 298:17 telephoned 212:9 238:23 239:15 239:17,21 240:3 288:2 television 209:15 219:8 220:18,25 223:7,9,11,12
223:14 224:19 227:5 271:8 tell 164:9,19 165:6 172:5,8,13 183:16 184:24 185:3,21 186:4 191:20,24 192:21,21 195:15 197:8 200:22 222:3,23 232:7 240:5 245:3 250:3 273:12,14,17,17 276:13 277:23 281:2 284:12 307:7 308:17 310:14 telling 175:23 211:2 310:18 tells 175:15 178:11 191:22 196:2,4 306:25 ten 253:13 276:6 tend 280:2 tenth 191:10 term 228:19 terminology 176:19 terms 176:19 194:19 196:3 264:24 266:20 313:14 terrible 298:6 terribly 164:15 text 286:12,12 TGL 231:20 313:13 thank 167:14 174:6 175:9 201:12 207:13 207:17 208:11 208:13 226:13 236:12,13 244:4 251:4 265:10 272:8 273:6 276:22 281:13 293:12 295:10 296:4 297:17,18 297:18 300:19 301:7 302:7,9 305:20 308:19 311:24 317:14 thanks 207:6,11 thereabouts 317:15 thin 301:10 307:11 thing 178:16 188:19 205:13 213:24 216:12
221:2,9 247:21 264:6 269:12 273:23 279:22 280:21 290:20 298:6 308:19 320:12 321:18 things 168:25 169:2 173:4 186:8 188:18 217:8 223:13 254:4 think 164:5 169:15 172:7,9 179:11,13 183:9 183:13 187:8 189:4,5,7 190:22 191:18 197:16 200:25 205:14 206:17 207:14 211:6 212:22 213:20 216:6 224:3,11 224:13 225:2 238:15,19 239:11 240:6 241:10 248:19 248:20,22 249:2 249:5 253:24 254:22 257:17 257:17 258:16 262:8 266:24 268:25 269:23 270:17 271:14 272:25 274:19 275:18 276:9 277:4,6,11 278:2,24 279:4 279:13 281:10 283:25 284:5,11 287:25 288:2 289:8,15 290:13 294:21 295:2,18 295:19,23 299:4 299:5,7,10 302:19 304:18 304:23 305:25 311:2 312:5 315:10 316:2 319:8,10,17 326:9,15 327:10 328:18 329:18 thinking 199:4 281:14 thinks 273:9 third 193:25 270:14 307:2 thought 166:24 169:20,25 176:15 180:16 184:8 213:21
TEL: (020) 7067 2900
FAX: (020) 7831 6864
MENGI v HERMITAGE
7 NOVEMBER 2012
PROCEEDINGS DAY 2 [Page 347] 324:8 325:5 WC2A 163:3,16 wealth 266:24 268:23 web 186:7 website 185:6,15 185:23 186:11 186:24 187:13 187:23,24 188:3 188:7 189:5 278:6,18 291:18 292:5,15 Wednesday 163:4 week 186:17 266:14 275:20 276:20 302:2 welcome 247:14 247:16 went 168:13 172:17 192:3 223:9,13,16,16 223:17 224:7 235:15 241:15 241:17,22 242:14 246:2 250:9 255:5 270:20 302:3 Whichever 230:22 Whitman 163:19 wicked 287:12 wife 317:24 wild 280:21 willing 231:9 280:14 wing 301:6 win-win 208:20 wish 191:19 247:14 264:10 wished 238:13 244:25 249:15 292:18 wishes 247:12 287:8 309:5 withdraw 176:25 177:17 181:21 181:22 250:17 251:2 260:13 withdrawal 261:5 witness 167:5 174:11 193:11 209:11,24 213:15 227:20 239:20,22 240:8 242:10,22,24,25 243:5 247:9,10 247:18,22 251:6 257:20 261:7,19 262:2,8,13,18 263:5 272:14 286:2,3,19 287:8 293:12 294:2 296:9,11 297:17,20,25 298:7,16,16 299:6,25 300:14 302:3,8 303:20 304:4 307:7 308:22 312:4 321:14,21,22 329:14 witnessing 207:5 207:9 women 266:5,6 267:19,21 wonder 294:2 word 182:12 217:24,24,24,25 217:25 219:21 225:22 229:14 296:9 words 172:21 173:2 174:2,5 188:22 189:12 191:8,14 192:13 195:11 198:8,21 198:24 199:23 202:10 207:12 213:10 217:10 228:17,18 232:21 249:20 254:22 272:20 273:9,20 285:5 287:10 290:23 307:22 work 184:10 194:17,24 195:2 207:13 210:16 231:20 234:5,10 241:12 265:22 worked 201:7 311:5,17 working 201:3,4 241:16 283:9 329:5 works 201:9 world 188:23 189:2 190:17 212:2 worsening 172:20 worst 176:6 worth 255:15 wouldn't 240:10 321:19 write 168:12 169:22 174:4 185:17 191:3 196:6 201:19,21 203:9 207:16,18 207:22 208:10
169:7 treated 294:8 treating 285:16 treatment 209:14 209:22 210:6 trees 267:4,10,11 267:12 trial 196:17 245:5 245:13 329:11 tried 232:8 261:4 trouble 256:18 307:23 true 165:2,16 166:6 181:15,20 184:22 193:7 194:22,23 197:7 202:13 209:17 210:24 211:17 215:9,10,11,12 221:23 232:17 233:2,21 234:20 237:8,17 238:4 238:6,14 243:21 244:9,12,13 249:23 257:23 257:23 261:9 273:12 279:15 285:21 287:14 291:2,7 295:22 297:10 300:15 300:17 321:22 322:14,15,22,23 323:4,5 trust 250:13 254:4 truth 173:9 182:4 237:2 238:2 294:6 try 169:25 273:15 292:5 trying 190:20 251:13 281:10 Turkish 205:3 turn 209:12 228:7 264:4,6 272:14 284:9 286:9 289:14 293:13 299:17 300:7 301:14 305:20 307:12,15,24 308:21 309:5 315:11 turns 327:8 TV 223:22 Twenty 294:16 twice 222:2 238:23 274:3 two 165:12,25 167:9 173:17 177:3,19 180:9 181:22 191:13
192:7 202:10 217:8 233:16 235:17,21 241:12 244:15 245:19 247:7,19 249:10 252:16 258:12 271:5 272:8 275:20 280:5 283:2 289:3 293:3 296:22 297:3 301:9 305:22,22 305:24 312:13 314:18 318:16 319:3,9 328:16 328:22 two-day 195:6 typed 308:11,11 typeface 282:15 typical 189:12,17 189:17 191:14 294:18 U ugly 287:20 uncut 219:21 underlined 306:25 324:12 undermining 200:3 underneath 259:4 299:6 315:15 understand 182:7 183:10,11 185:13,19 193:20 196:21 197:13 199:20 202:16 205:21 227:15 323:18 328:10 understandably 262:14 understanding 326:13 understood 184:4 287:8 undertaking 291:5,9,13,14 306:25 undertakings 324:11,13 unequivocal 264:24 unethical 255:20 unfair 275:2 290:3 unfairly 294:8 unfortunate 328:6 unfortunately 213:14 236:24 242:19 254:5
United 197:24 198:18 unmarked 327:25 unrivalled 297:14 untrue 211:23 243:20 290:3 untypical 195:12 Updates 329:12 upheld 228:9 upset 293:25 upsetting 287:12 Upwards 311:6 urged 258:3 293:15 urges 189:10 use 171:23 192:9 224:25 227:8,9 227:10,23,24 231:14 261:21 265:8 268:17,20 286:12 304:7 329:2 Usikike 276:14 Usually 205:22 V vague 186:21 valuation 255:8 various 173:11 189:19 193:5 290:21 Vector 244:18,24 246:7 verbatim 217:21 version 175:2 vetted 250:7 victim 296:15 297:11 view 175:11,16 176:3,4 178:21 178:23 218:15 224:16 237:6 238:14 240:21 255:10 285:5,6 285:15 303:23 viewpoint 236:25 views 210:23 217:2 224:12 227:13 228:3 visit 195:7 278:20 280:25 visited 241:12 visitor 186:7 Visitors 282:4 voice 164:14,17 195:11 267:7 298:3 volumes 301:9 W wait 206:10
239:19 waited 319:3 waiting 234:8 waive 304:2 325:13 waived 174:15 322:11,19 Walsh 163:15 Wananke 231:14 want 167:9 170:15 171:20 183:9 185:2 188:13 203:8 205:11 206:12 207:16,18,22 208:10 209:12 211:18 220:21 220:24 224:4 225:13 233:6 238:12 239:22 240:9 242:10 243:19 247:3 250:3 252:7 262:7,10,17,18 268:13,17 269:10 274:17 275:5,9 280:4 282:23 285:18 289:13 299:9 307:10 326:22 wanted 169:18 170:5 171:2 204:4 218:16 220:13 228:13 254:4 269:18,25 270:24 297:23 wants 168:24 171:15 274:7 284:18 war 198:9,20 200:3 warning 241:23 242:13 298:13 wash 223:2 washing 223:4 wasn't 318:21 way 166:6 170:6 170:12,13 176:20,25 179:18,19,21,23 189:17 191:15 195:12 199:8 225:9 229:8 265:23 266:6 269:7 270:11,12 270:13,18 271:6 276:6 280:25 281:3 285:16,23 301:17 309:21 312:10 319:17
LONDON, WC2A 1HP
TEL: (020) 7067 2900
FAX: (020) 7831 6864
MENGI v HERMITAGE
7 NOVEMBER 2012
PROCEEDINGS DAY 2 [Page 348] 281:14,16 307:15 317 308:2 32 311:6 322 172:19 173:21 308:2 329 173:23 37 207:3 39 189:8,9 4 4 260:7 297:22 298:15,19 313:14 42 243:4,5 47 217:7 5 5 208:11 258:19 5th 317:15 5,000 266:12 5.2 167:8,9 187:6 196:14 207:2 208:15 213:5 281:12,13,16 307:12 50 184:8 191:4 253:9 50% 190:19 50,000 181:2 51% 251:12,19 253:15 52 192:7,9 53 209:11 54 272:14,15,17 272:18,21 273:7 55 193:21,23 6 6 226:25 253:17 258:18,24 275:13,17 6th 252:14 6,000 266:12 6-11 275:12 6-9 163:16 6.2 236:3 7 7 258:19 7th 163:4 174:4 279:4 70 201:25 202:2 7067 163:16 73 196:23 75 199:11 76 199:21 77 195:5 200:4 78 195:9 8
LONDON, WC2A 1HP
210:8,8 276:13 279:14 294:23 295:6 310:19 writes 167:25 173:24 174:2 285:13 writing 176:22 209:3 282:9 284:23 297:9 302:23 306:19 310:12 writings 297:2 written 246:4 252:16 261:14 272:19,24 287:14 296:13 301:23 304:23 305:24 306:17 310:6 315:12,19 316:11,24 wrong 164:21 165:6 179:5,6 180:18 186:5,20 186:22 187:2,4 195:16 205:24 205:25 207:23 214:8 228:12,16 230:7 255:24 257:24 259:8,9 266:4 272:25 278:12 316:6 wrongdoing 304:8 321:10 wrongly 252:22 294:11 327:8 wrong-doers 165:3 wrote 177:12,13 208:9 245:5 249:14 250:8 264:19,21 265:4 285:15 302:24 303:2,3 308:5 308:11 316:17 317:24 X xii 253:13 Y year 236:14 257:5 257:7 258:12 259:7,15 266:11 270:14 271:18 271:19 272:7 years 172:4 233:16 245:19 258:12 266:12 269:18 279:20 311:6 yesterday 164:4
167:3 172:13 173:5 Ynanki 199:20 young 255:3 290:21 296:19 0 020 163:16 1 1 230:3 243:2,4 301:9 1HP 163:16 1st 163:15 1.2 301:7,11,12 312:6,6 315:14 1.7 260:10 10 204:10 217:15 217:15 277:4 286:9,15,24 287:4 10th 317:21 10.30 326:9 329:24,25 100% 260:25 101 300:8 102 242:25 243:4 243:5 247:22 107 293:13,24 11 222:2 322:4 11th 279:20 114 202:8 208:16 12 208:12 251:24 278:3 123 226:11 125 253:9 126 226:10,12 127 226:20 128 227:2 13 278:17 13th 274:17 280:7 14 278:23 140 202:16 15 289:15 16th 283:9 168 229:19 169 229:19 17 286:3 17th 284:23 179 233:8,9 18 259:19 260:7 266:12 278:25 183 213:6 283:2 309:5 184 309:17 310:12 19 172:20 277:19 19th 277:21 320:10 322:18 190 186:11 196 236:10,11 197 236:18
1970 229:20 198 237:18 199 301:14,21 316:6,7 317:14 318:13 1990 270:15 1990s 270:15 1995 230:3 1998 273:20 2 2 163:23 167:8 226:17,19 231:6 231:6,9 243:2 259:14 272:13 274:20 286:3 289:13 293:13 293:13 299:7,23 312:5 321:25,25 321:25 2LL 163:3 2nd 244:16 278:3 302:19 303:8 316:4 318:14 2.5 254:22 20 254:8,9,12,18 254:19,19 294:14 297:22 298:15,19 20m 279:22 20th 278:24 20-something 282:17 200 319:18,19,24 2000 316:4 2003 244:16 246:8 246:22 2003/2004 245:10 2004 246:15 2005 243:9 244:9 247:2 274:9 293:14 324:6 2006 251:17,20,21 274:9 277:21 278:20,24 294:8 302:19 303:8 317:15 318:14 2007 243:14 247:25 249:7,15 251:20,22 252:9 252:14,18 256:23 257:2,21 258:8,21 261:8 261:11 264:8,10 264:21 274:9 279:20 2008 213:8 230:18 233:14,16 257:3 257:17 258:10 258:22 259:10 259:15 260:5
283:9 284:7,24 293:7 2009 167:19 185:11,16 186:6 188:3 196:24 197:16 200:24 216:8,25 236:10 248:16 249:2 259:12 270:17 281:19 307:20 2010 208:16 216:9 2012 163:4 262:15 203 305:21 306:2 306:16 315:17 316:18 317:3,20 321:13 205 305:22 306:16 306:21 315:19 316:18 321:13 21 255:7 279:4 214 272:24 22 174:24 175:10 182:10,15 257:3 258:9 279:6 23 321:14,22 322:4,6 23rd 270:17 24 175:6 251:22 267:11 24th 262:15 278:20 317:24 25 272:16,24 273:2,3,5 279:22 25th 294:8 318:5 322:8 325:25 26 231:9 26th 307:18 279 289:21 28 173:13,14,15 2900 163:16 291 286:9 292C 286:14 3 3 187:9 196:14,15 213:4,5 226:9 229:18 233:8 236:10,10 274:20,20 283:2 308:21 3B 217:7 3rd 249:7,15 264:10,21 320:10 30 294:14,16 300 253:10 308 173:21,24 316 167:10,12,13 167:15,16 173:16 281:13
8 277:20 289:21 8th 279:4 320:10 800 224:2 87 314:22 88 314:9,20 315:2 9 9 259:11 312:3,9 9.30 327:7 90m 279:21 94 322:4,5
TEL: (020) 7067 2900
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Mengi V Hermitage 2102 Trial Transcript

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MENGI v HERMITAGE

PROCEEDINGS DAY 2 [Page 165]

IN THE HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE QUEEN'S BENCH DIVISION

Claim No: HQ10D04585

REGINALD MENGI Claimant -andSARAH HERMITAGE Defendant ----------

[1] (Pages 163 to 166)

TEL: (020) 7067 2900

FAX: (020) 7831 6864

7 NOVEMBER 2012 [Page 167]

PROCEEDINGS DAY 2 [Page 169]

MENGI-PRICE "As agreed at the meeting with Mr. Mengi...."

MENGI-PRICE High Commissioner.

knows or does not know -- to find a way ----

14 Q. Did he say whether he knew or he did not know?

because of my relations with the High Commissioners.

20 A. When I have a request from anybody on an issue, I have the

[2] (Pages 167 to 170)

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MENGI-PRICE notes. you whether this was all right?

me and say ----

various references, AN1 and so on to AN28.

21 A. My Lord, I cannot have someone senior, ask him to do something

page 322, AN27 is on page 308 of this bundle.

25 Q. Well, I suggest, Mr. Mengi, that it is inconceivable that

12 A. Yes, my Lord. 13 MR PRICE: My Lord, I should say that it appears to us to be clear 14 15 16 17 18 19

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MENGI-PRICE redacted version? Can I just have a look at it?

25 A. My Lord, I give the letter to my lawyer in Dar es Salaam to

[4] (Pages 175 to 178)

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[5] (Pages 179 to 182)

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2 MR. RAMPTON: Of course it would have been disclosed. We sit here

5 MR. PRICE: I was asking for information. I am going to move to a

18 A. Not necessarily, my Lord. 20

sometimes you do not?

[6] (Pages 183 to 186)

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24 A. Sorry. 25 Q. It says here that this is the lady's attempt at showcasing

[7] (Pages 187 to 190)

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17 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: If there is a different point, then by all

20 MR. PRICE: I entirely understand: I will be very brief then on

[8] (Pages 191 to 194)