I recently came across two emails from 2006, a time I was struggling with my Orthodox faith and searching

for real answers, not just the usual hype and rhetoric that religionists like to pass off as the truth. One email was from a friend in Nashville, he was a writer and minister with a Master of Divinity degree. He sent me a copy of an essay from one of his contacts in New Zealand and he asked me to review it and give my opinion. I felt quite honored that he would consider me for such a task, but it turns out he respected my viewpoint as a knowledgeable self-educated layman. I read and reviewed the document stating that I wish I had written it, although stating there were some points that I was not entirely sure of. Below is the preface to the essay written by my friend, and though I will not post the entirety of the document (it is not mine to publish) I will extract and post the points I found fundamental agreement with and try to put things in my own words. The second letter, I wrote back to my friend regarding other issues and I will post it separately later. In it I was struggling to retain my Orthodoxy, to hang on to principles as traditionally accepted within the Church universal. I look back at it now and am somewhat amused, because much that I was wrestling against, I have since come to realize and accept as true. To be sure, I have no doubt gone beyond my original antagonists assumptions and moved farther into areas of heretical thought than was originally intended. I do not find a problem with this, as may be observed in my friends statement of the baggage he carries having a Master of Divinity degree. He has a home within the system which risks being compromised, should he or others like him become too vocal in such matters. I, on the other hand, have nothing to lose as by way of employment, thus, can speak freely, though without the support of any institutional framework. I can speak (or write) on authority of my own conscience and the truth as I have come to understand it and believe. Preface to Old Wineskins:
Hi Bob, you're going to hate me for this possibly. Below is a rather lengthy article a friend in New Zealand sent me. To be honest, I don't let many people see this stuff because I know many would try to either lock me up or label me a heretic. Admittedly, it pushes the envelope but I think it's food for thought. Now remember

as you read this, I have an evangelical/conservative background and normally wouldn't quite jive with these thoughts but somewhere deep within I feel that some of it is ringing true. I was interested in your thoughts because you don't have the liability/baggage of a Masters of Divinity degree like I do. So, what are your thoughts? Again, sending this to you doesn't necessarily mean I subscribe to all of it but it has got me thinking about several things... Extracts from Old Wineskins which I found fundamental agreement:
Its hard to persuade those who have been drinking the old wine for so long to try the new. It requires a major shift in their thinking This describes the major fundamental problem with Christianity today. Its why it is falling to bits and will continue to do so. Trying to fit the New Wine, which is really the spirit, into our old religious formats just wont work. The whole configuration of our spiritual understandings (the old wineskin) have to change, and as most are not prepared to do that, we lose the spirit and the chances of further true revelation is lost and Christianity continues to collapse. We can study as much as we like, spending years at Bible Colleges, but if we dont radically change the interpretation of our traditional concepts we go nowhere. No matter how much knowledge we have, without the spirit we are powerless and vulnerable.

In my words: change the interpretation of our traditional concepts, I had noticed for years the tendency of the church to be effectively bullied by a Fundamentalist literalist segment within the Church who thought it was their privilege, right and calling to defend the faith from the encroachment of any and all interpretations of scripture which did not line up with their particular frame of thinking. This has not been a new problem, but rather extends all the way back to the first politicization of the Church and its doctrines, essentially coming to fruition at the time of Constantines conversion, circa 315 A.D.. Becoming a political entity, allied with the state (whatever that may be at the time) robs the true faith of what is the innate divine potential and power which is the resident inheritance of all human beings. Regardless of what may be official recognized doctrine, apart from independence from the state, the Church becomes little more than a vassal of the state. This is not to justify an independent Fundamentalist Church, but rather allowing the Church, as an institution the freedom to evolve, and change and mature in its understanding of God, Christ, the human community, our responsibility to the cosmos and each other. As traditional concepts are set in stone the role of the prophet is dead and fundamentally God is dead as we are concerned, worshipping graven idols of doctrine and dogma existing in our own minds. Institution do not embody the spirit, people do.
The modern church is little more than a collection do-good social institutions. The only power it has is through the collective support of those adhering to those beliefs and dogma they prop each other up and have to work hard doing it. Like any other philosophy or culture it is man centered. They look to human leaders, charismatic figurehead celebrities,

or even revered people from ages past for their inspiration. But I think we will find that no matter what the Christian establishment tries to do to revamp itself, unless there is a major shift in thinking, spiritually, it will now not succeed

In my words: I cannot condemn the do good social institutions. I believe they are necessary and much needed. What I cannot condone is the attachment we have on charismatic figures, or the purely copy-cat faith we place in human methodologies learned from business schools. Not that they are entirely to be faulted, but the purpose of business is the amassing of wealth, making the buck, with attention focused on the bottom line, and lets not forget about the image we have to project. Here again, we, the Church, have succumbed to the vision of materialistic values and allowed these to be our benchmark of whether or not we are hearing and following God or in the Spirit. We have allowed political and economic ideologies to define and virtually replace what we both innately know and is defined in our own scriptures. In the words of Bob Dylan as he once professed his faith, gonna change my way of thinking. This is a process that entails a lot more than dumping a few old habits and showing up to fill a pew. A total alternative to the way we have programed our minds is in order i.e. a paradigm shift.
its what every Christian has been dreaming for, but its quite different to what any of us could have visualized. from out of this ongoing collapse we are witnessing today, there are many people, disillusioned with the old set-ups, who are still searching. They know there is something real somewhere? They have experienced it. Theres still that little seed in us that first has to fall to the ground and die. Fall from that old system of thinking, (the old wineskin) and this is the seed if it falls on fertile ground (the new wineskin a new mode of open minded thinking) that will germinate and grow into something truly magnificent it has to leave the old format behind first and start all over again To escape from this old wineskin, which personifies our traditional religious understandings, it will take far more than just altering the forms of our worship, leadership style, church structure, methods and organization or going back to early NT principles. It makes little difference if we simply change our venue and methodology from the most elaborate mega church super sophisticated system right down to the simplicity of sucking on a beer, in our jeans in a pub with a few other like-minded believers, and calling ourselves the enlightened emergents. If we still have the old baggage of standard beliefs in our heads we go nowhere. This baggage is our ancient time honoured concepts of how we see and understand God, Jesus, the Spirit, the devil, demons, the Bible, heaven, hell, creation, the second coming, the Kingdom of God, discipleship, life, death etc. etc. All these understandings need updating by the spirit to be compatible with our modern thinking about our universe, and ourselves, in a believable and workable way. If we are still carrying around the old formats they put a stone over the entrance to our hearts and block the spirit. we must change

from static doctrines to a living ongoing understanding. Our teachers, if they are to be of any use, should minister the spirit to trigger the truths that are already in us. We havent realised that this is how it is. We have overlooked the obvious!

In my own words: The author of this document I am reviewing, Brian S., has pointed out repeatedly to me and those he has conferred with that the meaning of metanoia, which we translate as repent, has a much deeper meaning than the traditional way we have thought of it and expressed in our religious lifestyle. It is not merely a change of life patterns, giving up those we define as sinful and establishing a more godly way of living. To experience metanoia, to repent, is to totally experience a new way of thinking. Not simply ascent to a set formula of doctrines, dogma and creeds, but to adopt into a new world view or view of reality. It is to recognize reality and truth as it has never been experienced by oneself and to proceed, make ones way along the path of growing in this new truth. Without this depth of conversion all we do is slap a new decorative icing on a decaying, rotting cake. It is in this relationship and knowledge we must be taught. It is not altogether efficient or structured, as may be determined by human efficiency standards, but it is a depth of communication realized one human being to another, through all the ups and downs and inconveniences of life. Some principles may be expressed in the classroom situation, but that is not the place of growth and learning. That comes as we relate to each other, in the depths of knowing who we are.
So, for the purpose of this exercise, and to keep it brief, Ill just deal with one of these corrupted interpretations we have GOD! Christians drop this name off the end of their tongues as though he lives on their mantle piece! Our perception and visualisation of God is founded on beliefs that surfaced thousands of years ago. It all started in a time when humanity, by todays standards, was ignorant, pagan and very elemental. Their understanding of the universe was crude and their known world was very small. As time passed the legends and stories of their God were refined, written down, and through the contributions from different holy men and woman and various other scribes and historians these finally became our Bible. This book contains the foundational truths and working scriptures for the present Christian church. Over the centuries, through deep study by many learned religious men and woman we have interpreted these writings in a certain way. Through general consensus and tradition we now have a pretty firm picture of that God in the sky and how he operates. These principles have more or less stuck with us until to day and pity helps any one who would dare to challenge these! Most Christians believe the writings in their Bibles are totally true and accurate and are accepted with blind faith like they were set in concrete. However, if they dont stand up to the test of time, and things are falling down around our ears we must then consider that we could have got a few things wrong. The more we learn about our modern world the less realistic those old God interpretations become.

In my own words: I personally do not like using the word God. I has too many different meanings to as many people who would try and use it or interpret it in the hearing. Essentially God is the unknowable. Yet, we like to think we have gotten as clear a picture as may be possible in our Holy scriptures. At the same time, the God depicted in the Old Testament or Jewish scriptures appear to have a marked difference from the God revealed in the Christian New Testament canon of scripture. Then there are the plethora of scripture of other World religions giving use even broader insight into this divine character, not to mention the multitude of ancient sacred writings that have been rejected as heretical. When speaking of what may be considered by many attributed to God, I prefer to refer to :the divine, whether capitalized or not. I use this to refer to all that may be God but realizing that the divine is part of and intrinsic to our human nature, a part of our nature that is not set in material observations but real and there none the less, a part of our humanity which we have been taught to discount or reject completely. If we reinterpret what we have come to interpret as literal from the Bible, New and Old Testaments, as metaphor or allegory, it is obvious that there are more actual parallels, if not actual verifications of other concepts of the divine expressed through sacred texts of virtually all ancient World Religions. It is only in our (not only ours but others) Fundamentalist literalisms that a division of concepts of God is sustainable. Christian Fundamentalists are not the only ones guilty of this. It is seen in Orthodox Judaism and Islam as well, and I have little doubt can be witnessed in any form of religion that demands a whole hearted absolute devotion to its own concepts of faith.
there was one bright light that turned up about 2000 years ago that put the cat amongst the pigeons. He tried to turn our eyes towards a different way of viewing these old scriptures and to reveal to us our true Father who he claimed was his too. He said wed got it wrong and that he had come to explain things and show us the way. He spoke some amazing things, did miracles too, but the learned people didnt take too kindly to him. They were quite happy with their religion and their God and he was beginning to unsettle the true believers. They found his claims were just too arrogant, unholy, disrespectful, so these Old Testament believing religious leaders organised false accusations and had him killed. However afterwards a few got the feeling they had stuffed things up a bit and that maybe they had misjudged this man Jesus. They opened their hearts and the spirit began to show them some amazing insights. There was a lot more to this man than what they had first thought but they found him difficult to fit into their theology. They still had that Old Testament God hanging over their heads. That one up in the sky and it wasnt too long before they had Jesus up there somewhere with him too! Life carried on. It was a good compromise, but they still had a problem. They continually found themselves being pulled by the spirit one-way and pulled by those sky Gods in another way. But they built very ingenious doctrines out of it this situation and even until this day nothing has been totally resolved!

In my own words: We need to come to a better understanding of the person of Jesus and his being the Christ or Christ-ed. This is where a great deal of the problem within the Church really comes to a head. Old tome religionists perceive Jesus as the Christ, the one and only. They have deified him, through some imaginative inventive workings of theology, and declared him to be one with or the only emanation of the sky God worshipped by the Jews. Modern Christianity has been sold, and bought into a concept of God and Jesus, which was not preached and proclaimed by Jesus himself, but is a restructured adaptation, a synthesis of what Jesus taught with the Old Testament concept of the God they understood, the sky God and Roman cultural values. Jesus, as a Christ-ed human being spoke in relation to the OT scriptures out of a divine nature intrinsic to his person. A divine nature we are all endued with yet we are ignorant of. Jesus, as the Christ bearer essentially manifested to teach us what we are and can be, but it takes a change in our thinking. Being religious, espousing a few creeds or religiously sanctioned doctrines, without a quantum shift in our thinking is worthless. Changing our modus operandi and hanging on to the old religious stuff changes nothing. It is not movement towards spiritual maturity, but rather an attempt not to accept the responsibility and challenges inherent in any type of change. It also means admitting, we got a few things wrong, and that is never a welcome condition. It can be embarrassing, but that is movement towards growing up, growing up as a spiritual individual and collective body.
We are faced with this same dilemma many of us have had definite experiences of the intimate love of our Father is quite incompatible with a nature that could ever kill anyone or torture them in hell fire for all eternity. But we also have to admit that there is this very materialistic judgemental type of deity evident too. What master do we serve? We cant serve both! Where is this clinical criticising ethos coming from anyway? Are we being deceived somewhere? There are these two definite streams in tension. Everlasting love, or full on judgement and eternal punishment, yet Jesus seemed to point us to the loving side and had little time for that other nature and its religious regime. Jesus made no bones about what he thought of the Pharisees interpretation of their OT sky God Yet Jesus promptly told them their father was the devil, a murderer, and a liar. Have we made a mistake and are getting torn between a rudimentary intellectual understanding of a sky God authority that we have fabricated ourselves from our own old nature I fail to see how Christian people still try to fit that crude primeval hypothesis they have of a supreme deity Through all these centuries they have never yet been able to prove to the world that this sky God even exists! Maybe hes a version that we have created ourselves? A version that simply lives in our heads and we glibly take him on board as the traditional teachings about him are passed down from one generation

to the next and then kept on being promoted by the religious people. A supreme deity made in our image that gives us a great run around - an idol in the sky Christians bandy around this word God like it is an object but behind this also you can sense there is a fair amount of nervous respect and culpability. The word produces so many different perspectives for different people. Youd hardly ever get two the same.

In my own words: When I first came to Christ, became born again, started following the way, became a Christian or however you want to call it, I expected there to be a spiritual emphasis attached to the teachings I received through those I submitted myself too in the Church. As a babe in Christ I was ignorant and didnt know nor was able to tell the difference between the real thing and what was whitewashing. I soon travelled with an Evangelist who, did understand the difference and taught his charges well. Yet returning to a regular Church situation was disappointing to say the least, and a mixed bag of corrupted spiritualizing and justifying materialistic desires and approaches to being in ministry and tainting the character of what one would think should be representative of the character of Jesus. I can understand now that my Evangelist mentor had to struggle with a great deal of human frailties and make concessions himself in order to continue functioning in what actually is an immature, compromised human (rather than spiritual) institution. And to be sure, this cannot be taken as a universal condemnation of the Church universal, as the spiritual maturity of each individual pastor, lay or professional, and leadership team they produce is significant as to the development of each individual congregation, as individuals and as a whole. Yet there are still major roadblocks keeping the Church at bay and hindering the full realization of what it is and means to be in Christ. As I continued my own studies, upon leaving the Evangelistic team, I continually found ways to interpret Bible passages, which I have been told by pastors and ministers, my logic was unarguable. Yet, no one would ever discuss or take issue with me. I was told early on that what I was finding appeared gnostic. For years I remained ignorant as to what this meant, all my resources were centuries old and Orthodox approved. As I became progressively disenchanted with what the Orthodox Church was/is, I found myself researching deeper into the theology which I was uncovering and discovered that there is a great deal that the early Church, as a matter of political expediency, discarded in the early centuries after Jesus. Most of this I will cover in future writing and postings I have made since my initial review of this document in question. But at the time I first reviewed this I was finding considerable commonality and I now understand that I was approaching the scriptures unlike most Orthodox religionists. As limited as my resources were at the time, they were sufficient for that time, as I was examining and learning the scriptures, not as literal, but as spiritually discerned in and from my heart. My heart I would now describe as my deeper inner being, or as some might say, my

self, the part of me that transcends consciousness and explores the unconscious aspects of who and what I am. Yes, that is depth psychology, and I believe essentially, soul and spirit, the part of me that the religious minded would say connects with God. There is a great deal of difference between the humanistic limitations of intellect and the deeper reaches of mind into knowing ourselves and that which we call God.
If we dump this pre-historic God up in the sky (we actually dethrone our intellect) and turn to these deep feelings within, (true repentance) we connect with a being, or a dimension, that is far more compatible with our modern understanding of the universe. The new physics indicate that when matter is reduced to its smallest particles it breaks down even further and into events or vibrations which can even disappear and recreate themselves in different forms, and on that level the universe is really an interconnected oneness. There is not really any place left for a separate God out there beyond all this other than in our imaginations. So is it possible for us to connect with that foundational level of energy underlying the universe? An energy that even seems to have the potential to produce miracles and changes in state? Maybe we have the ability within us to do this if there is that interconnectiveness?

In my own words: This is an area that has fascinated me over the last 5 years, and I have subsequently done a lot of reading and research into it, and the connections implied through the various theories expounded. At the time I first read this I was without a clue, but since then have become a believer. The quantum realities now being discovered do more to substantiate what I had originally suspected as a matter of faith and upheld by these new understandings I find I can live my life in faith and knowledge. I believe not simply because I suspect or have a gut feeling (though I do continually), but rather I believe and live that belief because I know by intellect and experience. I cannot say it is perfect, but were it really matters, it works, and there are a lot of things I learn and acquire through the experience. I do, as I believe I hear, not with physical ears, but a spiritual sensing, a feeling, but not physical. And often, physical feelings and emotions act as a guide, or benchmark, but not always. I remain attuned, to myself, and others.
First. What do we understand about God? What did Jesus say? He should know because thats who he was! God is a spirit = an eternal life giving energy. Anything is possible. God is love = a personalised feeling (or nature) we can experience. Put the two together and theres our Dad! A loving Father that cant do enough for us and is just waiting for us to turn to him. But what do we do? We keep committing adultery by turning back to that imaginary one up in the sky! The real one indwells there through the spirit.

In my own words: I have many non-religious friends. Yet we are on the same wavelength. I have found that except for Fundamentalist absolute literalists, most religious descriptions of reality can be equated to secular and scientific thought. The primary difference being the secularist scientist has researched the workings the natural world in a greater depth than the religionist. Yet there is a common ground that can be realized. There is an anthropomorphic personification that the religionist finds security in that the secularist does not require, yet examining the same facts, there is actually little difference in what each sees. On attributes it to God, the other natural causes, but it still comes down to the same thing. Even in that which might be described as miraculous, as we continue to learn and understand the workings of mind, a common ground and frame of reference to reality discloses itself, and we can all see and understand our universal connection to all that is. Remember what Jesus said about the centurion, I have not seen such faith, even in all of Israel. The centurion was a pagan.
the new creation that we will see unravel is built on the living personality and nature of our Jesus (his spirit). When we speak from this nature things begin to happen. Creation has to sit up and take notice, because who is really speaking? Note: A brief explanation of this saying and how to apply it practically, "If you ask anything, according to my name, then I will do it for you!" said Jesus. For a starter the word prayer literally means: a 'projected wish'. Now tacking the name of Jesus on the end of some 'heady' religious prayer like it's some magic slogan or mantra is as much use as using the name Charlie Brown! What 'the name of Jesus' means in practice is speaking in his 'nature' (his persona). We do that by expressing the deeper feelings from our hearts - his spirit - it's like learning a new language and takes practice and a certain amount of courage So the rock (the foundation of all creation) is a spirit and well find this so much more substantial and real than our old system of fixed beliefs once we get used to the concept. Our old understandings are now becoming very unstable and will fall away because they are not true! Not eternally Truth is now available through a living energy Its the Kingdom coming from within us, [the coming (presence) of son of man, which means the son of oneself we are born out of ourselves!] and that cant happen until that impostor of a God comes down from out of the sky.

In my own words: I have no god in heaven (up there, in the sky). I have no god but what dwells in me. That can be explained in secular psychological terms, or through some religious tradition, but not an Orthodox Fundamentalist tradition. the living personality and nature of our Jesus is what we are innately, intrinsically, only we have forgotten. Use whatever language you like to explain it, it really doesnt matter, though Im sure you will piss someone off, religious or secular. Yet what Jesus the Christ was we can be that is the manifestation of the sons of God referred to in the Bible, specifically Romans 8:14 & 8:19.

There was more to this document, but at the time of my reviewing it I found to be more theoretical and speculative. It is time for me to review this article again. Im not so sure I would not find more that I agreed with, I has been over 6 years since I first read it and in the letter to be posted next I was struggling to hold onto my Orthodoxy and my replies reflected that. Over time, and a lot of research and soul searching, I have found I have changed my mind as to what I originally stated at that time. I shortly afterward realized that if I was going to be true to what I believed, remaining Orthodox had no meaning at all. So, true to myself and all reason and I believe God ordained logic, I ceased trying to justify a theology that could not stand on its own or speak to the reality I experience. The letter follows: I.E. Trying to Remain Orthodox 4-19-06 Jim Yes I have been following, particularly the thread between you and Brian. In the response to you The "saviour" reality can only begin to be revealed when we turn and "live" from our hearts. In this and other similar statements I find myself in full agreement. Then statements are made that I find confusing at best and possibly plain and simple Gnostic hog wash. around a physical "resurrection" that may have never occurred anyway, and come up with the wrong understanding? Maryanne's view of "Jesus"He was standing at the door of everyone's house all over the world talking to them all at the same time." "I've seen him plenty of times. He's just like everybody!" This analogy of Jesus I personally find right on target. In the ministry of the Holy Spirit in us, He is just like everybody. Someone once asked What does the Holy Spirit sound like when He speaks to you. A wise man answered He sounds just like you. This is my impression and conversation in the/with the Spirit. He sounds just like me. Does "Jesus" personify our heart feelings trying to express themselves to our intellects?.. In a sense yes. But I dont believe it is ultimately our hearts to be expressed, as it is the new divine heart planted in us. That being so then wasn't "he" entombed within us. Not talking to us from the outside - but from the inside! Trying to get out from where "He" had always been but we wouldn't take any notice. Christians were just as bad. They'd ask "Jesus" into their hearts and then spend the rest of their days looking for him up in the sky!

YEP!!! - nailed that one 1. "The time has come for the Saviour, the "Son of ourselves", to deliver his people". 2. "Repent" (mentanoia - turn about - reconsider - think differently!). 3. "The authority of God is within your reach." 4. "Believe (trust) the good news". (the restoration of ALL THINGS) 5. And finally, "FOLLOW ME!" for the Saviour, the "Son of ourselves", to deliver his people". Ill need to chew on this for a while That's all it is. But that was nearly 2,000 years ago and it still hasn't happened. What's gone wrong? If it is true have we been doing those things wrongly? Obviously we have! Who is "ME" anyway? Is that the real heart ME? No argument about doing it wrong So instead of focusing on an earthly historical Jesus who came into existence twenty centuries ago and had never been seen since, did we need to look for something else? Surely it is only our imagination that keeps "that old one" alive and Here we enter into a cosmic void. Are we talking about a real person, who lived, walked, ate, slept and experienced the full spectrum of human existence, amongst men. Felt pain, bled and died. And through the power of God demonstrated the resurrection power that is available to and in us through Him. Or, are we talking about a container for an eternal spirit, who lived walked, ate, slept and experienced the full spectrum of human existence, amongst men, but as the container was disposable Pain, bleeding, and dying were none issues? Is the Historic Physical Jesus irrelevant? Is the Spiritual (inner feeling) Jesus all that is real? As you can imagine I have some real problems with this. God placed us in time and space. We did not place ourselves here - He did. I have no arguments with the fact of problems and doing it wrong and there certainly is the inner Spiritual dynamic that we have denied. Reducing it to purely a matter of expressing our inner true self is equally in error as trying to apply a purely academic approach to get the Historic Jesus into our heads. The Historic Jesus has implications first in dealing with our natural man - Unspiritual head flesh nature. If that is not dealt with, as I understand the Bible - The Spiritual, inner dynamic - the realization of the Holy Spirit is just a pipe dream. Been there - done that - smoked my share of pipes. we have millions of versions of that one around the world. There are not two of them who are alike. A lot of them won't even speak to each other either. They have regular fights amongst themselves. We can even have quite a few differently named groups of them in the same town, but was the warm unifying

"feeling" which was emerging from within the hearts of ordinary people glimmers of the real one? I knew it was so I decided to dump the belief that a physical Jesus still existed. To me he was dead but was the warm unifying "feeling" - Bull Shit - In my humble opinion. I found that the meaning of the word "Jesus", derived from the Hebrew, "Joshua" meant: "self existent eternal God + to be wide open and free + safe + preserve + victory". And the word "Christ" meant: the "anointed" one - the chosen one. These abstract definitions implied more than a mere "physical" being anyway. more than a mere "physical" being anyway - Undoubtedly Scripture also said "God" was in Jesus, so applying that logic in practical terms, the historical physical "Jesus", must then be our `mental' image of the invisible higher non material "God" in our hearts. It's the `LOVE` we keep slaughtering in favour of our clinical doctrines and methods. I thought, "Surely it is only when we turn to our hearts and feelings that we can ever hope to get a true expression of what those values are?" the historical physical "Jesus", must then be our `mental' image of the invisible higher non material "God" in our hearts - YES It's the `LOVE` we keep slaughtering in favour of our clinical doctrines and methodsSurely it is only when we turn to our hearts and feelings that we can ever hope to get a true expression of what those values are?" Isn't this happening to us now? 'Metanoia' repentance? I am having a problem buying into Brians apparent separation of the Historic Physical Jesus and the Spiritual internal universal feeling Jesus supposedly in ALL humanity regardless of the finished work of Christ in time and space. First I do not perceive a dichotomy between the two, except that the Church has for all practical purposes denied the Spiritual reality. Second, I am not convinced that it is purely a matter of getting in touch with your inner feelings. Although that is a part of it. Third, the birth and development of that Spiritual life in us is not intrinsic too us until it is born in us, and we are not the authors of that. There is no doubt whatsoever that we in the church have made a mess of things. That does not mean we got it all wrong, we got a lot of it wrong and as He works in us , He will work the rest of it out of us. It is happening now. Not as quick as I would like. And Im really a nobody and what I say may not count for much. But yet there are those who I obviously minister too on a daily basis. If blog numbers mean anything. Good Lord you might find this in tomorrows blog. Maybe. So I will continue to follow. I will not get caught up in a debate. As I process what is presented, If I have to judge between my understanding of the scriptures (and I think you see I allow for significant latitude) and what I perceive as an errant perception, well - To thine own self by true.

Bob

There were some things that, at a time I was clinging to my Orthodoxy I explained as Gnostic hog wash. The irony is this was stated in ignorance. I have since adopted much of the hog wash, Gnostic or other as being the best explanation of what the scriptures are trying to express. So, in that sense, I might be described as a Gnostic. But it does go much deeper than accepting a new theology; it is a matter of finding the explanation that fits the truth of my experience. Granted, some of that experience may seem rather peculiar to many, but that does not make it invalid. If anything, it becomes the window into possible potentials in all of us. Some you may have experienced, and more I have yet to speak of.