Start Me Up panel

Apple Store, Regent Street, London, 31 October 2012 http://www.animateprojects.org/events/2012/start_me_up In partnership with London College of Communication, Jerwood Charitable Foundation and London International Animation Festival, Animate Projects hosts a free panel discussion at Apple Store Regent Street on the opportunities and challenges for young independent animators. Chair: Abigail Addison, Associate Director, Animate Projects Speakers: Phoebe Boswell, Joseph Pelling, Claire Spencer Cook, Susi Wilkinson

Abigail: Thank you for joining us for Start Me Up. This is the first event that were running as part of a new a professional development programme called Accelerate which aims to equip animators with the necessary training to succeed in this fast-changing industry, and to offer access to crucial peer and professional networks. This first conversation is an element in establishing the current picture, and to establish what is needed to support recent graduates with their careers. Animate recently wrote a blog for the Guardian Culture Professionals Network. In essence, it talked about the current lack of support there is for animation from the BFI and the Arts Council, and some optimism that with the BFIs new Film Forever plan, that animation will be given more development support. And there was the acknowledgement of the current gap in professional development support for graduates entering the industry. Were particularly interested in finding out about how animators are negotiating technological developments, the changing markets and demands, creating their own studios, or creative collaborations outside of traditional models. And how animators are managing to work in both the art world and the commercial. This is why weve assembled these four panel members, who all have varied backgrounds, and have forged portfolio careers in animation - Joe Pelling, Susi Wilkinson, Phoebe Boswell, and Claire Spencer Cook. Each person is going to briefly introduce themselves and their work, before we start the discussion. Joe: Im Joe Pelling. I graduated from Kingston University about three years ago, and now I work as an independent freelance animation director. I also work with This Is It Collective, in East London, and I mainly work in 2D animation and stop motion.

Susi: Im Susi Wilkinson. I graduated from the Royal College of Art in 1997. I actually got quite lucky, because quite soon after graduating, I got to work on music videos for Moby. It was at a time when he was not very famous, but about to become famous, so we got really lucky. I directed with two peers from my college course, and we started to work in music videos essentially, for quite a few years. Eventually, we were picked up by an agency, and I ended up making commercials for Bermuda Shorts. I now make commercials for Prime Focus Animation. Im here in a dual capacity, because Im a lecturer in animation at London College of Communication, and also at Central Saint Martins. Phoebe: Im Phoebe Boswell. I come from a more of a fine art background. I graduated from the Slade School of Art having focused on painting, in 2005. I always had wanted my drawings and my paintings to move; it was never enough to make a still image. In 2009, I did the postgraduate diploma at Central Saint Martins in character animation. I never really thought Id get into the industry of animation, I just wanted to make fine art animation; I wanted to make drawings that moved. Then I was offered a commission to make an animation, and it was really interesting that I finally could make some money drawing. Ive done a few interesting commissions, but I still consider myself a fine artist. I this year was offered the Sky Arts Ignition Futures Fund Award, which enabled me to do a year long project of my own, and enabled me to get a studio. Thats what Im doing now. Claire: Im Claire Cook and Im a producer at Nexus Productions and Nexus Interactive Arts. I started out actually I wasnt an artist or a filmmaker I started out doing languages and studied Theory of Film Cinema at Cambridge. My first job was in short film distribution for online, for a company called Atom Films, which was a precursor to YouTube. It was before broadband, so it was a pretty interesting, tiny viewing experience online. Obviously things have changed a lot now, and Ive tried to move with the times, but Ive always worked in between film production, and festival distribution and curation. For quite a long time, I worked for a festival called onedotzero, as a curator and a producer. I worked on their touring events and the actual festival programme. I then went to the BBC for four and a half years, and ran their Film Online division for bbc.co.uk. I used to run a project called Film Network, which is a short film showcase of British filmmakers on the BBCs website. Which is still going, thankfully. Part of my job there was to commission short films for the BBC and for BBC films, some of which were animation. One of the films I commissioned was called This Way Up, which was actually by Nexus Productions, and thats how I got to know them. Ive moved more and more towards animation production as my career has gone on. My role now is to develop animation based projects, for any platform. But specifically

the projects I work on now are interactive installations, online, app based ones, interactive books, and occasionally straightforward films too. Abigail: Thinking about professional development in your own careers, what do you wish youd known when you were setting out, when you just graduated? Joe: I wish Id know the importance of collaborating, and learning, and continuing learning essentially. Because theres an attitude in your mind when you graduate that youve learnt, and therefore now you work. Just continuing that process, and trying to keep that at the centre of your mind, is probably the best kind of advice I can give. It took me a while to realise that, and then to try to learn off other more senior directors, or people who had different practices. That was the most important lesson I learned. Abigail: How soon after you graduated did you set up This Is It? Joe: We started the collective when we were at university, only because we made a magazine every week, and it was called We Make a Magazine Every Week, This is It. Then the name stuck. Then I got a studio with friends who work in animation, and illustration, and graphics. We created the same environment that we had at university, but without anyone telling us that our work was bad! It was about a year until we got the studio. Susi: One of the things that I had absolutely no idea of, or belief in, was that people in the industry really do want to support young, new talent. When other people said it, I never believed it - it was this idea that the industry was full of really talented, really established people, who wouldnt have room for somebody who knew pretty much nothing, as I thought I did. It felt like a real closed society, and actually, once you started working, the doors were really open. Thats what I would say to people who are about to graduate. Youre often being asked for your services because you have a skill that they might not have, which is that youre making work for people like you. Whereas, if youre established in the industry, youre not necessarily out of touch with that generation well, possibly but you might feel that the new talent coming through actually have got a lot to offer. That would be the advice now me would give to young me. Phoebe: Id follow on from that - you need to follow your instincts, and you need to trust that you do have something individual and unique to offer. You shouldnt necessarily try to fit yourself into a box that doesnt fit you, because there is going to be a place for you in the industry. Because what you do, and what youve done until you graduate, is extremely important. So dont try and change

yourself to try and get into the industry. Always know that youve got something that someone is going to need and want, and forge ahead with that. Claire: Coming from a producer angle, I would say that there are not that many good ideas, and so when you do see a good idea, it really stands out. Its important to follow your intuition in that respect. If you read something, or you see something, and you think, Theres something in this, then trust that judgment, Id say. If something really strikes you as being individual, or original, or just has something unique about it, then its worth pursuing and developing. Its good to follow your intuition in that respect. In terms of storytelling, its about thinking about not just what you want to create, but who your audience is, and who you want to see this, and understand this story, and enjoy it. So often, especially with filmmaking - not so much commercials, because its kind of already worked out for you by the time you get to make it - but if youre making your own personal film project, you need to test it on your audience, almost before youve made it. You need to explain the story back to someone whos never even heard anything about it, and see if they get it. Because if they dont get it, then you might need to work on it a little bit more. Thats something Ive learned a lot along the ways. Always have an end. So many people dont think about the end, youve got a brilliant beginning, but no ending. Abigail: Thinking about people that are graduating now, and Ill start with Susi on this one, because you know graduates better than anyone here, what would you say is the biggest challenge facing graduates today? And what sort of support do you believe graduates would benefit from, from people like the BFI, and from people like Animate and Creative Skillset? Susi: When I graduated, you would have your compilation of excerpts on your VHS tape and if people saw it and they wanted to see more, youd send them the VHS tape of the whole films. Thats how you did it. You had a cover letter, and you would send it out to lots of people, who would put it in a stack with all the others. It wasnt a very exciting process and it was flawed. With graduates now, a problem is that they dont know how to sell themselves, or maybe they dont know how to start selling themselves. You have to have an online presence; how do they deal with that? Is it social networking, is it a website, is it a blog? Then theres the showreel - how do you do the compilation? What should you be selling, the entire film? And if you're using lots of different techniques, which technique should you be showcasing? Because the industry is changing so drastically, so how do graduates position themselves for that?

How do you approach a company? Youre one of hundreds of people. Weve had students or graduates turning up with hot pizzas for everybody, trying to get just a foot through the door. Lots of people can help with this through opening up opportunities. So having great work on your showreel, having live projects so youve already got contacts in the industry, who can help guide you on this and mentor you can really help. Having the online presence is really, really important, and being individual is very important. Now, because there are so many different approaches, but standing out from the crowd can be one of the best ways to get into work as a director. Its complex. Abigail: Joe, as a recent graduate, what would you say? Joe: If there was one thing that could help a lot of students, itd be money, probably. Just coming out and having more funding basically, to help people make more independent films. Most of the independent films Ive made now have had relative success, have been in Sundance and a few other places, but we werent given any funding for them. You sort of say to yourself youll do this film and then youll be able to get funding for the next one. But its really difficult to find the funds, so it would be great if there were more funding. My first job was for Nexus, actually. I worked with Johnny Kelly. I met Johnny because I asked if I could interview him for a project about the industry, and then actually ended up showing him some of my work, and working with him. Then it just kind of went on from there. Sometimes its just about meeting the right people. Claire: Thats a good example. If you really like someone's work, sometimes its just a question of contacting him or her, and most of the time its really easy to find their email address. Animations a nice world; its not like the horrible world of film, where people dont want to know so often! If they can see where you might fit, then theyre not going to lose anything by meeting up with you and talking about a project. Its brilliant for a company like Nexus - instead of just having their 13 directors they have 40 directors they can work with, depending on what the project is. Spot someone whose work you really like, who you might want to work with, and then just chat them up. Abigail: Something Susi touched on is how people sell themselves online. I know that a lot of universities encourage students to put extracts of their graduation films online. I wondered what the panel felt about this?

Susi: I used to think that was a bit excessive, to say, Just put an excerpt. But now Im a real believer in that, because festivals are still a great way to promote your work and meet people. If you have put your full film online, then it cannot go to some festivals, because it has to be the premiere in that country. Also, if people like an extract, they can contact you, and they can ask to see the whole film. Then after a couple of years, when youve done the festival circuit, it makes sense to put the whole film online. You can really benefit from showing work online, getting exposure all around the world. With something like Simons Cat, that never went to festivals, and was released on YouTube, within a week it had a million views. You couldnt do that in the traditional world with a low budget, one-man-band film. Whereas, you can do that now, but it does mean that you skip the festival circuit. So, it can go for you, it can go against you. Phoebe: Festivals, when youre starting out and youve got your graduate film, are so incredibly important. You should flog your film to as many as you can, because it will be a long time before you get to make another short of your own, that you can say is absolutely yours. I remember when I was leaving art school, one of the pieces of advice they gave us was, Go to parties and introduce yourself to people. Maybe in ten years something might happen. Luckily, the animation community is relatively small, and actually very friendly in this regard. And festivals are amazing because you just meet so many likeminded people. Even if your film doesnt get in, still go to them and talk to people about your work. A lot of jobs at the very beginning come from conversations youve had at a festival party, rather than sending your CV out to people when no one knows you yet. Susi: Also, there are headhunters at festivals. We were picked up by Buena Vista from a festival where theyd just seen one of our videos - that was really exciting. Nothing came of it, but they put us in touch with someone else, who put us in touch with someone else Being at festivals and just putting yourself out there is really, really important. Claire: Thinking about online networking, LinkedIn is useful. People are more likely to respond to you, if you contact them through LinkedIn and say, Please, I need to chat to you about a specific project. Dont just do a generic, Hello, you dont know me; can you be my friend? But if you have a specific project to talk about that might interest them, then they might not say, No. If you do targeted LinkedIn contact emails or referrals, it can actually work really well. I found it really useful in that respect, for finding people who work in a similar area to me. Ive never met them, or know anyone whos met them, because theyre in America, or Australia, but now I have a business contact there and can potentially work together. Thats actually quite useful for developing your own network. It takes a bit of time and research to find out who those people might be, but theyre there.

Abigail: I agree, especially with the way you can tag things now. If youre looking for a flash animator for instance, you can search through LinkedIn and find people you're connected to with that specialism. Its a good way to find people. Has anyone in the audience got any questions? Audience 1: Im in my second year of animation, and our teacher keeps mentioning about work experience and internships. I tried it last year, I tried about 20 different companies, and everyone came back to me and said, Were full up. I just wondered, How did you get work experience? Joe: The first job I had, with Nexus, was kind of an internship. Again, its finding a way to meet someone. A few months ago, I put an ad out for some interns for a music video, and was inundated by way too many people to even look through all the reels. Some people will call you up and say, Can I just pop in? and then youre just like, Okay. Then that just sort of gets the ball rolling, and you can start narrowing it down. Sometimes, to be fair, maybe people who arent best for the job get hired, because theyre more... Claire: Tenacious. I totally agree with that. As a production company, we get a lot of requests throughout the year. Its always the people who send in their CV and then follow up with a phone call, and find out who the head of production is, or the producer on the kind of projects they want to do - youve got to do your research. Of course, theres going to be a lot more people looking for the position than there are actual positions. The ones that get placements are the ones that are literally, Im just round the corner. Can I pop in and give you my reel? Then you meet them in person. Then they follow up three days later with a phone call, saying, I love your company. Please think about me. They're the person whos at the front of your mind when something comes up. With productions, things get confirmed suddenly and a project that that person is suitable for might just come up. If youre in peoples faces more, then it helps a lot. Susi: Having a blog is good, where you keep uploading your work. It doesnt have to be completed films; it should feel like youre excited about what you're working on, and show continuity in your work. Some of our students contact the directors, because sometimes the producers are too busy. If you talk to the directors and flatter them a bit, they can go and talk to the producer and say, Id really like to have this person working with me, because they make me feel good about myself.

Phoebe: At Central Saint Martins we were all given a mentor in the industry, and most of us ended up doing internships with our mentor, because we already had the connection. If your university is keen for you to do work experience, programmes where they contact the industry and make connections for their students might be something that they and other universities should start organising. Animation is time consuming, and if youre also trying to find a job at the same time as make work its hard. The Central Saint Martins course was amazing for me, because you leave and youre already in communication with companies. So yes, it might be something about asking them if universities can help make this happen. Audience 2: How important is it to have a formal qualification in animation to get a job? As a producer, do you take into account whether somebodys got a formal qualification? Claire: I take it into account, but if theyve got a good reel, that would win them the job over their qualification. A lot of people are self-taught and work in other fields to be able to make their own films. Its brilliant to get that formal qualification if you can, you meet amazing people who can become part of your team. Animation is a collaborative process, so you want to be meeting sound designers, or composers, or character designers. Its brilliant as a networking tool, but at the end of the day, your work has to speak for itself, more than anything, from my perspective. Audience 3: To the producer, how long does it take you to make the projects you showed us and to do the rendering? Claire: It depends. If its a commercial, we work across different types of animations. Say it was a 3D, 30 second, high end commercial, like a Coca Cola ad, or we just did a longer version one for Chipotle, that schedule could be 12 weeks. It could be as little as 6 or 8 weeks. Its dependent on what the client needs, when the client needs it, and how much money theyve got. The way it seems to work, very roughly, is that the shorter the timeframe, the more money youre going to need to hire more people to make it in a shorter amount of time. But really, wed be nervous if we didnt have at least eight weeks, to pull something off of that scale. Then weve worked on short films that have taken a whole year, because youre doing them in and around other projects. Installations Ive worked on recently, the shortest timeframe Ive worked on is about eight weeks. Again, that feels really tight. Ideally, 12 weeks is enough, to pull off something good.

Audience 4: To Joe, could you go over the steps of setting up a studio, insofar as an animation business plan goes, and getting those first few commissions off the ground? Joe: With us, because were a peculiar bunch of people, it tends to be quite informal and quite casual. Technically, were not contractually tied together in any way, but have started to build a reputation together. Slightly in contrast to what everyone else has said, we try not to focus on our online presence too much, because you can get too involved in it. You make a website that does everything, but theres nothing on it. We tend to be quite immersed and do what we do, and then weve been lucky; things have just come in. Really, just getting the physical space is the only thing that we did to create what is now the collective. As long as everyones in tune with each other, the work starts to have an overall voice. Phoebe: There are complications and implications in making an actual business, and so Im the same. When I have a commission, I will have informal arrangements with people, if I need extra help. The step towards having an actual company, Ive been hesitant about setting one up, because of costs and legal issues, and you dont really need it when youre starting out. Susi: I did this a few years ago, and one of the things that I would definitely say is, Dont overthink it, because you can spend so long trying to work out what to do, that you end up not actually ever getting round to do it. But also take roles, so dont all try to do everything. Have one person who takes on the role of the producer, who might deal with the finances and someone who deals with the communications. Audience 5: This is to the whole panel. As an example, if you wanted to sett up a big animation studio - the UK's Pixar, what tips would you give on making a splash in the industry? Claire: Get the right people! Its very different here to the US, and its hard. The UK animation industry wants to make more feature films, but the moneys not here. So you end up having to go to America, to try and find the money for the films that youd rather make at home. From our perspective, until that changes, which is what the Animation Alliance is lobbying about, its hard to keep really good home-grown talent at home, because theres always a better job in America, essentially. In terms of making studios, the UK is a really amazing talent base, and is really good at telling stories. A lot of very ambitious projects get made here for nothing because people love what theyre doing so much that theyre doing it regardless. That gets noticed, and then they get hoovered up by LA.

Abigail: It's about international collaboration. There was a project recently called Resonance by SR Partners who collaborated with people though Vimeo, people met through online conversations on Vimeo. It was quite an ambitious project, and there were issues about time zones, language, and cultural differences. Its partly because there is a lack of funding in the UK, but its looking at those connections that there are internationally, because virtually everything is open to you, and for you to share information and meet people. Claire: If you were to set up a studio now, it doesnt have to be geographically in one place, does it? Its good to have everyone in one room, because you talk, and you learn, and you share ideas by being there. But actually, you can do that to a lesser extent remotely, from different places now, and it is quite possible to direct a film. We did a project, a collaborative documentary project called Coalition of the Willing a few years ago. There were about 15 different directors on that, and they were all over the place. Each director did a segment of a 15 minute film. Overall it was 1-2 minutes per director or per collective, and then it was all stitched together to make one long film. So actually, the amount of work that goes into that is a lot less per person than it would be, if you tried to do the whole thing all by yourself. Its really fun to make a film in that way; its a totally different way of filmmaking. Phoebe: I dont think you can decide to make a studio as big as Pixar; it has to evolve over time, with reputation and with every project that you do, youll grow. Susi: Its a big, ambitious question. Pixar didnt start as Pixar, they started elsewhere and they came together when they had this brainwave, but they got a lot of experience. Audience 5: Do you think with young animators, the majority of their time should be spent on the creative side, over the technical aspect of animation? That the storytelling, the building the ideas should be the main focus? Joe: Yes. You dont want to completely avoid technology. Its so intertwined. But you do see a lot of work that is really technically there. For me, personally Im not really that interested in seeing something thats really technically well done, but doesnt really have much behind it. Staying on top of the idea and the creative centre point is the most important thing, over putting in loads of technical time. Susi: It does depend what you want to do. Because I would always agree with that in the past; Id be The creativity is the most important thing. But actually, technology has moved on so rapidly, and the industry is huge now, and the roles within that industry are many.

So some people are really fascinated with the technical side of it, and other people do want to be directors or designers for animation, or working maybe in 2D or stop motion. Theres so many different roles, that the starting point needs to be what do you want to end up doing, and then what do you need to learn to be able to do that? Because I know that some companies, theyre employing, for instance, 3D animators from Europe, and they find that there arent the animators available as graduates from the UK. In which case, theres a problem there; theres jobs available, but were not able to fill them. Claire: Youre right. Its that some people want to be a director, and they have a story, and they have a vision. They want to tell that story, and they want to be the author, if you like. Some people dont; they want to make really good animation, they want to be really good at being a 3D animator, or a 2D animator, or a concept artist, or a character designer. There are so many bits to it, as you say. Its not just one person doing everything - its lots of people doing everything. It is important to learn what all those different roles are, and then work out, Actually, I quite fancy trying that, and then going for that area. Because it might be that you might be doing a course in animation, and then you actually decide you want to do visual effects in a post-production company. Thats very different to working for a straight production company, as a director. Theyre two very different jobs. So its good to try and work out what bit youre most interested in first. Abigail: Thank you to the panel for sharing your thoughts, thanks to the Apple Store for hosting us, thank you to our supporters, London College of Communication, Jerwood Charitable Foundation, and London International Animation Festival, and thank you the audience for joining us.

Links Accelerate - http://accelerateanimation.wordpress.com Guardian Culture Professionals Network blog - http://www.guardian.co.uk/cultureprofessionals-network/culture-professionals-blog/2012/oct/10/animation-future-studioproduction-models Jerwood Charitable Foundation - http://www.jerwoodcharitablefoundation.org Joe Pelling - http://cargocollective.com/josephpelling London College of Communication - http://www.lcc.arts.ac.uk

London International Animation Festival - http://www.liaf.org.uk Nexus Interactive Arts - http://www.nexusinteractivearts.com Phoebe Boswell - http://www.phoebeboswell.com/ Susi Wilkinson - http://www.slomoproductions.com/film Animate Projects Experiments in animation - http://www.animateprojects.org Connect with us: Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/AnimateProjects Twitter - http://twitter.com/animateprojects