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Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / When is CP-189 required?

By supermoto

Date 11-25-2014 12:10

I am familiar with SNT-TC-1A, CP-189, NAS-410, and EN-473 but not sure when CP-189 is required in a specific industry
or code or standard. I tried to do some research on here and other places but I couldn't find anything which states CP189 was required except in some NRC documents and random employers written practice. A fellow co-worker who is
familiar with the nuclear industry is familiar with SNT-TC-1A saw me studying for my Level III never heard of CP-189 and
I couldn't tell him where it is a requirement. I figured I should know where it is required if I'm going for my Level III.
By 46.00

Date 11-25-2014 14:05

As I understand:
"ASNT CP-189 was approved by the ASNT Board of Directors in January, 1989 as a standard for the qualification and
certification of NDT personnel. The intent was to produce a new document that provided strict requirements rather than simply
guidelines. ASNT obtained ANSI accreditation to process this document through a consensus balloting process that would
recognize ASNT CP-189 as a national standard. The first successful consensus document became the ANSI/ASNT CP-1891996 followed with ANSI/ASNT CP-189-2001 and ANSI/ASNT CP-189-2006.
ANSI/ASNT CP-189 is similar to SNT-TC-1A in terms of training, experience, examinations, etc.; however, the standard provides
minimum requirements that do not permit changes and several significant differences were introduced to strengthen the NDT
personnel qualification and certification program:
Employer certification requires an ASNT NDT Level III certificate in the method.
Qualified training must be provided by qualified instructors, typically, an ASNT NDT Level III."
I guess CP 189 is a much more robust standard that has strict requirements and not just guidelines or recommended
procedures like SNT-TC-1A. When a company decides to follow CP 189, they must accept all the requirements of that
standard, with little or no adjustment or leeway and the relevant training requirements! As to where it is used, well that is
dictated by client and contract specifications I would guess, but most likely boiler and pressure vessel type fabrications!
By supermoto

Date 11-25-2014 14:49

Thanks for your response. I know the reason for creating it and being more stringent as a standard an not a
recommended practice. Sounds like there may not be a specific code or standard that requires it other then customer
may require it.
By ssbn727

Date 11-25-2014 20:22 Edited 11-25-2014 20:24

Here's an interesting paragraph with respect to VT and CP-189... This is from a paper submitted for the15th
World Conference on Non-Destructive Testing 15-21 October 2000 in Rome:
"I think that you will agree training would be beneficial for visual test applications, but is certification
necessary? Certain codes mandate certification this is exemplified by the application of ASME XI.
Certification is required in accordance with CP189 to categories segregated as VT1, VT2 and VT3. Each category
specifies visual applications and is available at levels 1 or 2 with specific criteria pertaining to eligibility of trainers and
prospective level 3 persons. Not all code or standards require certification but how else do you assess the competence
of test personnel? An age-old phrase of justification is that of "continued satisfactory performance" but what does this
mean? Is this a quantifiable value or a misnomer of accuracy? Surely by virtue of demonstrating continuous
performance by an internal or external means of assessment, automatically achieves traceability and quantification. But
this approach is little short of the certification process advocated by many as costly and unnecessary. Certification
schemes are available to operate as company internal quality measures with internal or external moderation. Quality
control documents typified by written practices based around SNT-TC-1A, CP189, NAS410 or prEN4179 are used
globally for internal certification being moderated by internal or independent external examiners. Certification in
accordance with EN473 and ISO9712 is differs from those previous by classification as central certification in a similar
vein to college examination bodies. Although both routes to certification have attributes and detriments they do ensure
adequate coverage of all industrial needs with flexible options to address specific requirements.
Should you require any further guidance on any of the points mentioned in this paper please contact Lavender
International NDT Ltd. via email at Stephen@lavender.demon.co.uk or phone 44 (0) 1226 765769 addressing enquiry's
to Tim Armitt."
Here's the link to the page:
http://www.ndt.net/article/wcndt00/papers/idn006/idn006.htm
In an attempt to produce a more rigid uniformity, ASNT re-visited the intent of SNT-TC-1A and produced a new
document which was designed from the outset to be a "national standard" rather than simply guidelines. This new
document was offered as an alternative to SNT-TC-1A. Both exist as parallel programs available for a contractor to specify
and a sub contractor to adopt. The overall structure is very similar to SNT - TC - lA in terms of training, experience,
examinations, etc. It differs significantly in several areas.

examinations, etc. It differs significantly in several areas.

A brief list of some of the major differences below:
1.) Written Practice - instead of a "Written Practice" as detailed in SNT-TC-1A, a "Certification Procedure" is required for
CP 189.This cannot be reduced in rigidity to suit company requirements dictated by CP 189. Again it must be approved
by the Level III.
2.) Vision Requirements - The vision requirements for near vision acuity are more stringent in CP 189 requiring acuity to
read the Jaeger # 1 instead of Jaegar # 2.
3.) Levels of qualification - There are 5 levels of qualification instead of 3 the additional 2 being "Instructor" and
"Trainee".
4.) Minimum training hours - The minimum training hours are not reduced for having a 2 year degree, as is the case for
MT, PT, and NRT for SNT-TC-1A. The training requirements for ET Level 1 are less stringent than the recommendations
of SNT-TC-1A being only 12 hours instead of 40 (based on a High School education).
5.) Level III certification for CP 189 also requires an ASNT Level III certificate in the method as a pre-requisite. A "Basic"
exam is not required, holding a current ASNT Level III certificate satisfies this requirement. Level III examinations also
require a procedure be prepared for the practical exam.
Again this is not a comprehensive list of the differences, but simply the "major" fundamental differences in the
concepts... By far the most important fundamental difference is in the concept that CP 189 is a national standard and
must be treated as a minimum requirement not simply a set of guidelines which may be altered... This is reflected
throughout the 2 documents by the choice of verbs used... CP-189 uses "shall "throughout to emphasize a mandatory
requirement", whereas SNT - TC - lA uses the verb "should" to emphasize a recommendation"...
So basically there's no requirement from ASNT to use one system over the other because that decision is up to the
contractor to make and the subcontractor to follow... However, the owner, customer should be aware of the differences
between a set of recommended guidelines and an actual ANSI approved by consensus American National standard in
order to make the right choice in choosing between the 2 parallel certification schemes offered by ASNT...
The Nuclear industry does prefer to use ASNT CP-189 but they also allow limited use of SNT-TC-1A also and the military
has there own standards that is based on the ASNT CP189 certification scheme with very few additional criteria to
establish the differences between the 2 also....
ASME does require that the VT personnel be certified to ASNT CP-189as well as other methods too... The bottom line is
that one (CP-189) is stricter in it's certification and education requirements because it is a orderly formal standard
compared to ASNT SNT-TC-1A which is not, but the choice between the 2 to be applied to a project is decided by either
the OR,or EOR, or the customer/client and followed according to the specifications found in the contract documentation.
Clear as Oktoberfest Beer eh?
Respectfully,
Henry
By 803056

Date 11-25-2014 22:47

A number of welding standards recognize CP-189 as an alternative to SNT-TC-1A.

My recommendation to my clients is that they require NDT qualification and certification in accordance with ASNT CP189 or ASNT ACCP. In that case it is a contractual obligation.
Best regards - Al
By ssbn727

Date 11-25-2014 23:00

I concur Al,
Here's an interesting synopsis covering both the guidelines and the standard:
"The ASNT Guidelines
The American Society for Nondestructive Testing (ASNT) began in 1941 as The American Radium and X-Ray Society. In
the early 1960s, ASNT established a technical committee to set up guidelines for the qualification and certification of
NDE testing personnel that employers could follow. At that time, most people who employed nondestructive
examination test methods were self-taught or simply followed the equipment or material manufacturers instructions
that accompanied their products. The result of the committee efforts was the ASNT Recommended Practice SNT-TC-1A
introduced in 1966. (SNT stood for Society for Nondestructive Testing, TC stood for Technical Council, and 1A
designated the first published document.)
SNT-TC-1A is not a mandatory standard or code but rather is an employer-based program with recommended guidelines
for initial training, experience and testing of NDE personnel for qualification and certification. To this day, ASNT
Recommended Practice SNT-TC-1A has remained the primary practice for certification in the United States and
internationally. The ASNT Recommended Practice is used in many industries, including oil and gas, transportation,
power plants, construction, bridge fabrication, and bridge inspection. Qualification and certification of NDE personnel is
a function of training, experience and examination and is based on the technology or test method. For an individual to
become certified in multiple test methods, each method must be represented by method-specific training, experience
and examinations.
SNT-TC-1A outlines recommended requirements for initial classroom training, on-the-job experience hours, and
recommendations for the general, specific and practical examinations.The document intends that employers will create
their own programs based on their business streams and needs by developing a written practice.The written practice is
an internal procedure for the certification of the employers own NDE personnel. Because the certification program is
specific to the employer, the NDE technicians certifications expire should he or she leave the employer.

The intent of the ASNT Recommended Practice SNT-TC-1A was to provide some uniformity of the qualification and
certification of NDE personnel throughout the industries that employ nondestructive testing. The downside is that the
employer-based program is often abused, resulting in a lower level of achievement than what the program had
intended.Employers are sometimes under pressure to put certified NDE technicians to work and keep their personnel
billable.The time that the technician is not at work is considered overhead and hurts the companys bottom line.
Additionally, ASNT does not have an audit function to assure that compliance to the intent of the document is met. The
auditing of the employers program is left up to the employer or the employers customer.People who perform an audit
of an NDE certification program are often not specialists in the field or are not thoroughly familiar with the original intent
of the employer-based program.
The ASNT Standard
In an attempt to create a more rigid program for qualification and certification of NDE personnel, in 2006, ASNT
produced the document CP-189, titled: ASNT Standard for Qualification and Certification of Nondestructive Testing
Personnel. Written with the intent of becoming a national standard, CP-189 offered an alternative to SNT-TC-1A with
more rigid requirements, rather than guidelines. Both the SNT-TC-1A and the CP-189 programs are currently in
use.Employers may simultaneously put both programs in place within their businesses.
CP-189 and the SNT-TC-1A are similar in that both use training, experience and examination as the basis for
certification. However, CP-189 requires a certification procedure rather than a written practice. The requirements in CP189 cannot be altered or reduced to suit a companys needs, as can be done with the SNT-TC-1A program. Another
difference is in the visual acuity exams: CP-189 requires a visual acuity of J-1 (Jaegar #1) rather than a J-2 as
recommended in SNT-TC-1A.
The CP-189 outlines five levels of certification rather than three. Both documents have certification level I, level II or level
III. CP-189 adds certification levels of trainee and instructor. Training hours are not reduced in CP-189 for a candidate
possessing a two-year degree, as is the case in SNT-TC-1A for some of the test methods. The level III certification for
CP-189 requires that the candidate possess an ASNT level III certification in the method for which the certification is
sought. This certification meets the requirements for the basic and method specific examination, leaving only the
practical examination to be administered by the employer. SNT-TC-1A permits an internal certification of the level III.CP189 also requires that the candidate prepare a test procedure as part of the practical examination. Of course, the most
fundamental difference to remember is that CP-189 is a standard that details minimum requirements, while SNT-TC-1A
is a set of recommendations for an employer-based program."
What do you think Al? Or anyone else? Oh btw, this is from the February 2013 issue of Quality Magazine:
http://digital.bnpmedia.com/article/The+Expansion+Of+Certification/1295792/0/article.html
Respectfully,
Henry
By supermoto

Date 11-26-2014 00:25

So looks to be up to client/customer to make the requirement.

As long as we are on the subject about CP-189 and SNT-TC-1A, I have another question which I'm sure someone could
answer.
They both mention PdM Predictive Maintenance in SNT-TC-1A under basic examination requirements and under
definition of Non-Destructive and CP-189 only references PdM in the scope, defines PdM, and is mentioned as a NDT
level being a "PdM Level III certificate". My question is what are the requirements for PdM since either don't have any
formal training or experience hour requirement. The PdM certification and all of either have very few references and
information for this certification. I found through PdMprofessionals.com which talked about the the ASNT PdM Level
III. ASNT's application doesn't even mention is to check or anyway to get an ASNT PdM Level III certification, maybe
there is a separate application. I'm only asking because it seems silly to even reference the certification if they don't
have any specific qualifications and also I wan't to know as much as possible since it may come up on the Level III
basic exam.
Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / When is CP-189 required?
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