The Episcopal Church in Appalachia: An Oral History of

Frances Keller Barr

Introduction
I go by Frances K Barr, Frances Keller Barr. Thats how I sign it. So you can call me whichever you are
comfortable with. [I have been an Anglican] all of my life, and a 5th generation member of Christ Church
Cathedral. Or, was, until I decided to join St. Huberts, which I love. As I said, my granddaughter recently
got married. Shes the 7th of Christ Church, and the 5th generation to be married there. So, ol Lexington
and Christ Churchs been principle in my life. And only Dixon [my late husband] was an assistant, hes a
cannon of the Cathedral1. So he preached many times at Christ Church and everybody loved him. But,
we started coming to St. Huberts when John Madden was the rector. And he loved everything about it.
And then he and Father Ellis ended up being terribly close and Father Smith.
I happen to have held every office in the Diocese of Lexington open to a layman, at the time. And I even
got my MA of Divinity degree from the Episcopal Theological Seminary in KY. Which was where the Good
Shepard Church is now. But, I never intended on being ordained. I thought about being ordained to the
Deaconate, but I happen to not think that women can be priests in any part of the holy, catholic 2church.
I have many good friends who are, and they can be deacons. But as priests the only thing they cant do is
consecrate the Elements 3and hear confessions.
I have no intentions of leaving the Episcopal Church, I am probably the oldest member Ill be 89 this
month! As I said, Ive held every office available to a layman in this diocese. The only one I havent had
was that of the Ecclesiastical Court, and that was because at that time it was only open to clergymen.
Now layman can be on it and its not just open to clergymen. But in my day it was *closed+, so it was the
only one to which I could not belong.
Thats just kinda background

Faith and Wisdom

I dont think that enough people are as knowledgeable about their religion, know enough about their
church, and I think that that is very important. I teach a Bible class with a few of St. Huberts people. I
think that is important that they learn more about their religion! Not just about Christianity as a whole,
but I used to go throughout the diocese making talks about it. Theres no room for that anymore it
seems!

Christ Church Cathedral, Lexington, KY

Catholic means universal here. This is why it is lower case.
3
The sacred bread and wine used in Holy Communion.
2

[Calling someone] reverend is wrong. Reverend is an adjective. And it irritates me when people refer to
Reverend Smith. You would have to say The Reverend Mister Smith because reverend is an adjective.
But Baptists and people that dont know any better call so and so Reverend Smith4 Which it burns me
up! Because if they know, if they have any knowledge of semantics theyre not gonna refer to
somebodys first name by an adjective! So the Reverend Mister or the Reverend Father is alright, or just
Father is alright.
Technically, I consider there to be three [official churches]: Rome5, Orthodoxy and the Anglican Church.
But, youre right. When I say the Creed6, I definitely believe in one holy, catholic and apostolic (church)
I BELIEVE; thats another thing! I dont believe the same thing even the presiding Bishop of this Episcopal
Church does. So, when Im in a church where they use the 79 Prayer Book, I loudly say: I BELIEVE.... In
fact, my children say, Mother, not so loud! (laughing). Cause of course they grew up in what I call the
New Episcopal Church. All of them live around here within a few blocks of me. Ones a lawyer, ones a
paralegal, and my daughter has been a widow for many years but she goes to Christ Church and sings in
the choir
Now I think this Pope 7is great; I like him. But, you know, I dont believe in the infallibility of the Pope,
and many Roman Catholics today DONT. Saint Peter (laughing) had a wife for goodness sake! Plus, he
wasnt infallible. I believe in the collegiality of the bishops as a whole. One might say that I am a
conservative, and I am very orthodox in my beliefs.
Most folks think that Christ Church 8is fairly High-Church9. It isnt. Its so Low-Church 10that my mother
used to be astounded that I would cross myself, because she grew up in Low-Church Christ Church and
she didnt cross herself. But I read myself into my Anglo-Catholic 11stance, and thats why I cross myself
at certain times as you may have noticed which not many people at St. Huberts do. And at the Creed
I usually bow at the appropriate time which you know Father [Duane] Smith does.
I think, and Im not running down the Baptists necessarily, but their clergy they could just take up
preaching. You know, some started out without even an education. And I hate to be {?}, but I think that
the Episcopal Church, rightly or wrongly, not so much now as it used to be, is a Class Church. I mean
there are Most of the people are educated. Most of them are from quote/unquote the Upper
Classes. And this is wrong in many ways, which I think that the Church is for everybody. A homeless
person can walk in, and should be as accepted as anyone. But it hasnt been the case in the past, and its
4

Reverend Doctor Duane Smith, St. Huberts Episcopal Church, Lexington, KY. Berea College Faculty.
The Holy Roman Catholic Church. Barr acknowledges that the Bishop of Rome has authority, but no more than
the rest of the bishops in the Orthodox, Anglican and Catholic traditions.
6
The Nicene Creed used in Holy Mass.
7
Pope Francis
8
Christ Church Cathedral, Lexington, KY. This is the cathedral of the Diocese of Lexington that encompasses the
entire eastern portion of the State of Kentucky.
9
Opposite of Low-Church. A term that means that services use more pageantry and ritual during the service (ie the
Catholic Church).
10
Opposite of High-Church. A term that means that services are generally non-ritualistic. Less, if any, pageantry is
used. Examples include the Baptist, Assemblies of God and Presbyterian traditions.
11
Barr is acknowledging the diversity of the practices of the Anglican Church throughout the world, and even in the
USA. She claims to be on the more Catholic side of the spectrum, where other churches in her area are more LowChurch.
5

kinda hung over I do think that is one reason: an educated clergy is the main thing. I think that the
Presbyterians and the Episcopalians have always had the more educated clergy. And laity, as far as that
is concerned. So that part

History and Mission Work in the Hills

So, also as I was telling you earlier, the Episcopal Church was slow to arrive in KY. It was under the
opprobrium, as I was mentioning to you, that right after the Revolution12, most people were against
anything that even smelled English. And Englands Church came under that opprobrium. No doubt about
it. And even though the first public service of worship in KY was held in 1775 at Boonesborough, under
the branches of a great elm tree by an Anglican clergyman, still it was not until 1796 the Christ Church
Lexington became the first Episcopal Church in KY. Trinity, Danville, followed after that and Christ
Church, Louisville after that; the first three. They made up the first diocesan convention. And so the fact
that they had to get over that anti-English feeling, the Baptists and the Methodists, the Camelites
(Carmelites13) and the Presbyterians really beat them to KY actually. It wasnt until 1789 when the
Protestant Episcopal Church actually was founded that Episcopalians actually began to come to KY. The
Baptists had already beaten them, and so you know it took a while!
[Christ Church] was founded by a prominent group of Episcopalians known as the Episcopal Society in
1796. Just 4 years after KY became a state. It already had that presence of the Episcopal Society which
met out on the Russell Cave Pike, and then they decided to get the Transylvanian, the Reverend James
Moore, to be the rector of Christ Church. Its been in the same spot since 1796 3 different houses of
worship to speak of. Its the mother church of all Episcopalians in the State of KY.
The first Bishop of KY was the Right Reverend Benjamin Bosner Smith, and he was a Rhode Islander. And
he came here as rector of Christ Church. Then, while he was here he was elected the first bishop of KY,
which you have to have three parishes to have a diocese. And they had to wait until they had those, so
Christ Church was the only church in the Diocese at that point!
The Good Shepherd was actually a mission originally of Christ Church, and so was St. Michaels in
Lexington. It was the 3rd bishop of Lex, Bishop Moody, who decided to ring Lex with churches named
after archangels. Thats why we have St. Michael the Archangel and St. Rafael the Archangel, and then
he has others like St. Matthews and all. He was the one who had the vision to want all these churches in
Lex, and so there were plenty of them. He was the one that really started that, and he started the
Seminary too! He reactivated it it had been dormant since the first bishop of KY, way back in the Early
1800s. We didnt even have the Cathedral then or anything
Christ Church became the cathedral under the First Bishop of Lexington, Bishop Burton. He was a
missionary bishop. And the next one was, Bishop Abbot, and all of them But I think that Moody more
than anything else he founded more churches than any other bishop weve had. Christ Church has
always been the biggest church in the diocese. Although, the Good Shepherd is right on its heels it
might have overtaken it now *in size and attendance+. My familys always been involved in all that. My
great-great-grandfather taught in the seminary and also taught at Transylvania, the theory and practice

12
13

The Revolutionary War of the United States.

A monastic order in the Catholic Church that came to Appalachia to spread missions.

of medicine and in the seminary he taught Ecclesiastical Polity. Ive always heard of Dr. Cook 14doing all
these things.
It was under the episcopate of Bishop Dudley that was the second Bishop of the whole state of KY, and
he always said, we are essentially as missionary diocese almost as much as any of the great
missionary jurisdictions of the West. He started the board of missions and he revived a lot of the
struggling parishes and missions. And above all the missions in KY his favorite was St. Thomas of
Beattyville, and he was as much at home among the humblest miner as he was among his peers in the
House of Bishops. He was my favorite in the early history of the diocese. And St. Thomas, Beattyville, is
named for him; and not for St. Thomas! Its named for Thomas Underwood Dudley, who actually
founded it. And he went everywhere: on foot and every way he could; all over those mountains and he
loved it. He loved St. Thomas, Beattyville, best of all. Middlesboro is another one that he founded. He
started St. Marys, Middlesboro and church over in Lawrenceburg called Grace Church. He started
services in Nicholasville and reactivated the little Mt. Sterling church, which had been burned during the
Civil War. He did a lot
And, uh, I been interested in the diocese all my life, thats why Ive written two diocesan histories That
first one, the Elm Tree, covered the whole state, as I was tellin you. But, principally the diocese of
Lexington. And thats why its called Heritage of the Episcopal Diocese of Lexington. And, Ripe to the
Harvest, I got my ideas from scripture of course, because the idea is the fields are, ripe to the harvest,
particularly in the eastern churches in Appalachia.
[The book that I authored] The Great Elm Tree: Heritage of the Episcopal Diocese of Lexington covers [
the history of] the whole state. As I told you earlier, there was only one diocese in Kentucky, and that
was called the Diocese of Kentucky. But in 1895, when it was decided to divide the diocese, right in half,
the western half is where Louisville is the See city, and in the eastern half, Lexington is the See city.
And this happened that we had our first Bishop of Lexington who was consecrated in 1895, and that was
when the Diocese of Lexington began, with Christ Church as his cathedral. Christ Church, Lexington. And
in the Diocese of Kentucky, Christ Church, Louisville is the See city. And so, the whole western part of
the State, there was loads of missionary work was done in that part of the state. And in Appalachia, as I
call it *emphasizing that the a is pronounced like that in apple+, the Eastern part is where our
Bishops, the Bishops of Lexington, operated.
It was under Bishop Adison Hosia. Most of my church life happened under him. Thats when I became
historiographer of the Diocese and, Also on the Nashotah House Board, which is a High-Church
seminary. So it was then, but it really isnt that way anymore. I lost that battle and gave the final speech
at the General Convention, which I was a deputy in 1976, against the ordination of women to the
priesthood, and I realize I lost the battle. And, many of my good friends are (women priests), however I
still do not receive *the Eucharist+ from a woman if she is a consecrator Now If she is not the
consecrator, I do *receive the Eucharist from her+. And I realize I lost the battle And also at the next
General Convention in 1979 I fought for the retention of the 1928 BCP15, and lost that battle,
resoundingly

14
15

A relative of Francis Barr.

Book of Common Prayer. Several versions have been released since the founding of Anglicanism.

We had the episcopal theological seminary in Kentucky, which Bishop Moody founded. And the reason
he founded it was many clergyman did not want to man the parishes and missions in Eastern KY, where
the pay was low and some of the places were difficult to go to, and they just didnt want to And so, for
the express purpose of being able to place clergymen in these outlying towns, he founded the Episcopal
Theological Seminary in Eastern KY.
And actually, Bishop Benjamin Bosworth Smith, the first Bishop of KY when it was still just one diocese,
he had actually started a seminary in Lexington which was called the Episcopal Theological Seminary. It
was in Lexington where the Thomas January House is, up on 2nd Street. And it flourished for years! My
Great- great-grandfather, whose portraits in the other room, was one of the professors in it. And um,
see my roots go way back.
And, um, it turned out an awful lot of good priests, and we wouldnt have had all these parishes in
Eastern KY; we wouldntve had Richmond, we wouldntve had any of them really if Bishop Moody
hadnt reactivated the Seminary.
Then Bishop Wimberly came along and decided to close it for a while. He decided to make the stress on
laymen getting a theological education at the seminary. And Dixon, for example, was a cannon of the
Cathedral and at the same time he taught in the seminary, and taught mainly laymen. Cause as a
theological seminary, it was closed under Bishop Wimberly. I think unfortunate, but I had to vote for it,
and the reason that I had to admit that it was turning out a so-called schismatic priest; those who left
the Episcopal Church for the Anglican-Catholic Church. It was turning out a bunch of those. As was my
seminary, Lashota House. Its got both now *both types of people+, and some who are members of the
Anglican Church The Anglican-Catholic Church.
A lot of them are [going to diocese stationed in Africa]. The Church is very strong in Africa. But now like
Martin Gornick, who used to be an assistant at Christ Church, has this church in Lexington, the Church of
the Apostles I believe its called. And hes a wonderful teacher. Dixon and I often went to his classes
which met on Tuesdays. And he was, uh he left. Hes a member of the Anglican-Catholic Church. They
fought like piranhas (laughing), really and truly over the {?}. They wanted to do their own thing, so they
left the Episcopal Church and started all these Anglican-Catholic Churches. And only one or two of them
are really what I would consider really good churches one of them being where Martin Gornick is. They
bought this church real close to Christ the King (the Catholic Cathedral of Lex) and you may have seen it;
its flourishing! Cause an awful lot of people left Christ Church and the Good Shepherd and the other
churches because they not only followed Martin Gornick, who was a wonderful priest, but because they
didnt believe in the things that the modern Episcopal Church believes in.
As I was telling you briefly, Christ Church, Richmond, so many people left it after Bishop Wimberly closed
it. He didnt think that it was big enough He just closed it! And it made everybody furious that had
been long-time Episcopalians. And thats when Our Savior was started, after Christ Church was sold to
the Art Guild (of Richmond). He made a bunch of enemies!
I was very close to Bishop Wimberly for a while, but then I wasnt after We (Barr, Dixon and Wimberly)
had every Christmas Eve dinner with his family. Later we fell out, and I think that was because I wrote
him a farewell *letter+. He was running for bishop of 4 different diocese and didnt get elected, and then
he ran for Presiding Bishop and didnt get elected and I happened to write him a letter wishing him
God-speed and saying, I had always known that you werent particularly happy in the Diocese of

Lexington Well, he stormed down the hall at Christ Church (Lexington) and said, How dare you say
that I was not happy in Lexington!!! And from that time on, he didnt have anything to do with Dixon
and me And it was just ridiculous! So we fell out, even though I had no dislike *towards him+, I didnt
like the way he operated and I think it was entirely wrong. It hurt Dixon who was a protg of his; he
first became really interested in the Episcopal Church through him. So it hurt and it still does.
But, you know, it hasnt affected my relationships with anybody or my life in the Diocese. I dont intend
to depart like so many of my friends of mine have to the continuing churches. I am an Episcopalian
and always will be. Continuing churches means those so-called schismatic [churches] who left the
Episcopal Church, either for because of the ordination of women or because they didnt think it was
catholic enough in the liturgical sense after the new prayer book came along. They have broken from it
[the communion of the Episcopal Church]. They still carry on Episcopal worship. Many of them are
liturgical, some are less [liturgical]. But the differences in what they believe to be the true faith Some
of them use the 1928 Prayer Book, others use the regular Prayer Book (1976). I am an Anglican-Catholic,
but I do not belong to one of these schismatic groups! Indeed, Ill be an Episcopalian till I die. I do
[believe in the unity of the Church].
And all I wanted to do was retain the 1928 prayer book but not have it the principle prayer book. I
didnt mind I like Rite 1 alright, I dont like Rite 216 Although my husband liked it. He said it followed
along closely. He didnt mind it at all He was a convert from the Presbyterian Church, Dixon was, but
he was a wonderful Episcopalian and a fabulous priest.
I think more Episcopalians, particularly at St. Huberts, they are mainly converts that Bishop Moody, the
3rd Bishop of Lexington, brought into he more or less began it, because he was the real Catholic Bishop.
Bishop Hosia was too, but he didnt change many of Bishop Moodys policies. If you read my books,
youll realize that Bishop Moody was the architect. He knew everything: He started the seminary, he
started the Cathedral Domain. I consider him the architect of the Diocese of Lexington. Really, of course,
more so than the first two. And he also founded St. Huberts! And he founded it so that he could have
the 1928 prayer book, and so that he didnt have to have any women priests. Thats changed but
thats the way he started it.

I think that Vatican II had a lot to do with the Episcopal Church being less catholic, as Rome became. We
copied Rome, and when they changed everything, so did we Except for a few things I think that sooner
or later Rome is going to accept married priests, for example. I see that coming But I do not think that
they will ever accept the ordination of women to the priesthood, although the new bishop of Rome is
certainly I like him immensely, Francis17, yes And I think that he will be much more open to anything
like that. Like, um, birth control. I think he is leaning towards changing that. Youll see many changes,
and it all began in Vatican II.

16

In the 1976 edition of the BCP, there are two Rites: Rite 1 and Rite 2. These are rubrics for the worship service of
the Holy Anglican Mass. Rite 1 is more traditionally worded, where Rite 2 is more contemporary.
17
Pope Francis

Plus it began in Vatican II18 where you had banjos, and stringin and singin from putting up a great big
thing The Episcopal Church never did that! You go into some episcopal churches today and they have
great big screen-like things and they put the prayers and the songs and so forth on it I just dont agree
with that at all, but then again thats just me. I follow the rubrics of the Prayer Book 19and I am
traditional and Im conservative in both religion and politics. So, I guess they go along kinda together.

So then we started the office of the Permanent Deaconate in my day, way back 40 years ago. And that
was fine! There are still some that stay permanent deacons, but before very few stayed. They were just
transitional deacons awaiting to be ordained to priesthood. A deacon can do anything a priest can
except those two things: hear sacramental confessions and consecrate the Elements in the Holy
Communion. So I still believe that. I made a first auricular confession many years ago, and for many
years I did. But now I think that the General Confession is enough, unless you are guilty of some horrible
sin like murder where you would want to confess it! The Lord can forgive anything as you well know
But all of the Bishops were interested in starting industrial schools to educate children up in the
mountains who otherwise wouldnt get any education. There was something that they would call the
Kindergarten all over Lee County. It started educating children and went all the way from kindergarten
all the way through college! Those people would have never had (that).
I was gonna tell you about the clergyman that probably stands out from all the rest, and that was the
Reverend Alexander Patterson. And as I say he burst upon the scene like lightning like the Old
Testament prophets in the hills of Eastern KY, and its never been the same since. He was called the
Shepherd of the Hills. He knew every nook and cranny. He went over all of it by foot. He became known
as the Walkinest Man in Lee County.
Sometimes he stepped over into Elliot County. Preacher, he was called by almost everyone. He
preached, baptized, brought the Holy Communion; to people long isolated from the Episcopal Church.
He used a hand-carved walking stick, and at that time he had 87 services in one year, 1906, and
collected from all of them $26.41 There wasnt any money for these missions. None, back in 1906-10
In Proctor he founded the Mission House, which was a social settlement house which had been a tavern.
And Sunday schools, and sewing schools, and industrial schools and carpenter schools all of them, he
taught all of them people in the mountains of Eastern KY. I think he was the principle clergyman in
Easter KY He was a Scotsman and had learned to get around with very little money. He had been a
carpenter and a leather tanner before he came here.
And there was organization that was called the Girls Friendly Society, which there still is nationally. It
had what was known as the Holiday House up in Beattyville. It was a school for girls and a school for you
know all the mountain people.

Todays Church

18
19

The Second Vatican Council, 1962, held by the Catholic Church.

The Book of Common Prayer, BCP

So weve always been interested in it (mission work), even though we didnt have the money and we
didnt have the means to do it. The Episcopal Church has never had that much money, it really hasnt!
Except in the very big parishes where the rich people really give; like Christ Church had an enormous
endowment at one point. Doesnt have near as much now because they spent the endowment under
Bishop Wimberly again He spent it on various other things. We dont have that big endowment, but
we still have enough. It depends now on the giving of the people, and Christ Church has many big givers.
Not as big as it should have, but thats been the problem! Baptists tithe very few Episcopalians tithe. I
dont completely tithe. There was a time that I tried to, but I try to support the Church as well as I can;
every Sunday a certain amount. And I think most people at St. Huberts do.
We are one of the poorer diocese (here in KY), saving the ones out West. Cincinnati is one of the
wealthiest. New York, naturally. Trinity Church, I think their clergymen are paid more than the presiding
bishop. Weve just never given enough, tithed enough, I think! But there wasnt any money in the
mission fund when Bishop Moody came along. And he scratched, and got people to donate here and
there and start the Cathedral Domain.
Thats another thing, he asked if Christ Church could be tendered to him as his cathedral, and they
refused him because they had had problems with the former bishop who had made it a cathedral and
then un-made it one (laughing). Thats when he went up and started the Cathedral Domain. The
Cathedral of St. George the Martyr about 10 miles from Beattyville; thats the principle cathedral
instead of just a pro-cathedral under Bishop Moody. Later, Christ Church became the cathedral (of
Lexington) again. So, the Cathedral of St. George the Martyr is just the pro-cathedral.
Thats where all the camps are. Thats where we have St. Georges Day every year, which is one of the
biggest diocesan functions that we have. And its in that cathedral. It was sort of the center of the
diocese, and I suppose that it still is, cause it really is just there in the center of the diocese. All these
camps were started from this Patterson Holiday House, who was that clergyman that I just told you
about, with the help of the Gleaners of Christ Church and the Girls Friendly Society, those were the two.
They are organizations in the Episcopal Church like St. Andrews for men, and the Girls Friendly Society
was one of the main ones in the Episcopal Church. So the Holiday House educated and taught everything
for years and later became the property that would become the Cathedral Domain. We have an
interesting history, and of course I love it!
You know before, they didnt think that Protestant churches were any part of the Holy Catholic Church.
And the only thing I protest is ERA. And I was glad when they took the word Protestant out of the
Episcopal Church title. It was always the Protestant Episcopal Church in the United States of America.
Now its just TEC, The Episcopal Church.
[I have seen] really quite a bit [of conversion to Anglicanism from other denominations of Christianity].
When people realize that the Episcopal Church is a sacramental church, and most of the Baptist
Churches and others are not. And the sacramental aspect appeals to a lot of knowledgeable people. And
so Ive seen quite a bit of it.
So many people [in our diocese] are so parochial-minded. Like Christ Church, for years, was so parochialminded. And so are most of [them+ St. Huberts is! But, actually, the diocese is the smallest
ecclesiastical unit. Its the principle unit. So, the early bishops, their hope was, particularly Bishop
Berton, the first bishop of Lexington, to make us more diocesan-minded, instead of a narrow

parochialism Which would mean that you could go to any church in the diocese and realize that it was
part of a whole, the diocese being the main ecclesiastical unit. Of course both [those who are diocesanminded and those who are parochial-minded] are part of the diocese, but most of them just think their
church is just the main ecclesiastical unit. Its not. The diocese is the main ecclesiastic unit.
This Diocese has dealt with [all the changes] very well. They go along and do more or less what they
want to according to the parish. Christ Church has become a lot more liturgical than it was in my days.
The Good Shepherd is a little bit more higher, I went there briefly when I lived on [][][]20 Avenue there
real close. And as president of the diocesan women, for many years I knew every church in the Diocese.
Id go give talks on one or other of my books, and we had a much more presence. A regional meetings
was in the Ohio Valley Region and the Bluegrass one in the mountains; thats the way it was divided. So,
every parish in the diocese
I find it a mix [of classes present in the churches in Appalachia today]. Like in Beattyville there were one
or two families that literally gave the most in stewardship and who were the pillars of the church who
did more. Of course, you held the more offices in the diocese and did more for the church. But I think
they always accepted other people. The miners, for example! And both of those (St. Marys and St.
Thomas) were mining communities. Some bishops ran schools at one time in Proctor, which is up there
close to Beattyville; and there was an Episcopal Church there. There was actually a school for the
children of miners with 200 students in it. And it was flourishing for about 5 years.

The Status of the Church

I think many are moving away from religion as a whole, not just Episcopalians, unfortunately. Mary Lloyd
21
and I were talking on the way home (from church) about she said she asked her brother, Do you
believe in God? I mean, he asked her WHY she believes in God, and so forth, and did she believe in
creation, and she said, Yes I do but not a literal interpretation. But I dont think as many people
believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible. Im not a creationist22. I believe in the Great Truths of the
Old Testament, but I do not take it literally. What difference does it make if God made the Earth in seven
days or whether it took eons?! And my question is how do you think all those dinosaurs got on the arc?!
The Episcopal Church has lost 2 million members since that convention where they decided to ordain
women and do away with the prayer book. And as I said at the time, its not the ordination of women
that is gonna cause the break; it is the homosexual issue. Some of my best friends are homosexuals. I
think, definitely, they ought to I dont think they should be allowed the sacrament of marriage, but I
think that they ought to be welcomed, blessed and everything! You know, Im all for it! It was one of the
main things that caused a loss of people in the Episcopal Church. There is no doubt about it.
Ive changed a lot. As Ive said, I still dont think a woman can be a priest. I think she couldve done every
bit as much as a deacon, and I am very much in favor of deaconesses, women deacons, because it is part
20

For privacy, this address is not given.

Barrs friend who drives her to church on Sundays.
22
One who believes in the myth of Creation as told in the Book of Genesis. Genesis is the first book of the Old
Testament of the Christian and Hebrew bibles, in which all things were made in seven days.
21

of the three-fold ministry. They are every bit as important as priests and bishops. Deacon, Priest, Bishop:
Part of the historic three-fold ministry
I have great hope that [the status of the Church] will improve. I dont think that there will ever be a
great Episcopal presence in Eastern KY. As every new bishop comes along, he considers himself a
missionary bishop and tries hard. So I think that we are always going to be in there trying. We wont
have the success that the Baptists and Methodists and Presbyterians do. And thats another thing: why
do the Baptists want to use bread and grape juice?! The Lord used wine, thats just off the cuff for me
too. I dont think that a valid holy communion could be made up of rose petals and grape juice! We need
to use the elements that the Lord himself used. Thats just one thing The Baptists are scared to death
of any type of liquor, or are supposed to be how many do you think adhere to that really?23 (laughing)

Oral history captured by James Isaac Ball, October 2014

Berea College, Berea KY

23

Episcopalians use wine during their worship service as one of the Elements. Baptists and Methodists are
opposed to the consumption of alcohol, especially in worship, preferring to use grape juice instead of wine during
Communion.