1 UNI TED STATES DI STRI CT COURT

EASTERN DI STRI CT OF NEWYORK

2
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - X
3 :
UNI TED STATES OF AMERI CA, : CR- 01- 56
4 :
v. : U. S. Cour t house
5 : Br ookl yn, New Yor k
J OHN DeROSS and :
6 ANTHONY SAI NATO, :
Def endant s. : TRANSCRI PT OF TRI AL
7 : J anuar y 28, 2002
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - X 9 o' cl ock a. m.
8

9 BEFORE:

10 HONORABLE REENA RAGGI , U. S. D. J .
and a J ur y.
11

12 APPEARANCES:

13 For t he Gover nment : ALAN VI NEGRAD,
Uni t ed St at es At t or ney
14 One Pi er r epont Pl aza
Br ookl yn, New Yor k 11201
15 BY: AMY WALSH,
NOAH PERLMAN,
16 DAN DORSKY,
Assi st ant U. S. At t or neys
17

18 For t he Def endant s

19 J ohn DeRoss - PAUL LeMOLE, ESQ.

20 Ant hony Sai nat o - DALE L. SMI TH, ESQ.

21
Cour t Repor t er : Mi ckey Br ymer , RPR
22 Of f i ci al Cour t Repor t er
Uni t ed St at es Di st r i ct Cour t
23 225 Cadman Pl aza East
Br ookl yn, New Yor k 11201
24 ( 718) 260- 2439

25 Pr oceedi ngs r ecor ded by mechani cal st enogr aphy.
Tr anscr i pt pr oduced by Comput er - Assi st ed Tr anscr i pt i on.

M. BRYMER, RPR, OCR


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8 THE COURT: Thank you. Mr . Smi t h.

9 Mr . SMI TH: Yes, Your Honor .

10 Thank you.

11 CROSS- EXAMI NATI ON

12 BY MR. SMI TH:

13 Q. Good day.

14 When was your f i r st l oanshar k t r ansact i on wi t h Sam?

15 A. I bel i eve i n t he l at e 70s.

16 Q. How much di d you bor r ow?

17 A. I bel i eve i t was ar ound 5 or t hen $10, 000.

18 Q. What was t he i nt er est ?

19 A. One per cent per week.

20 Q. Now, when you f i r st had t hi s agr eement wi t h hi mhe made

21 i t known t o you t hat he was associ at ed wi t h or gani zed cr i me,

22 r i ght ?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And you under st ood t hat t o mean i f you di dn' t r epay t he

25 money some ki nd of har mwoul d come t o you, r i ght ?


MARSHA DI AMOND, C. S. R. , OFFI CI AL COURT REPORTER



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Sal er no - r ecr oss/ Smi t h

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And when was t he second t i me t hat you bor r owed money f r om

3 hi m?

4 A. I don' t r emember t he exact t i me.

5 Q. How much di d you bor r ow t he second t i me?

6 A. I don' t r emember t he f i gur es.

7 Q. Now, you sai d you bor r owed money f r omhi mhal f a dozen

8 t i mes, r i ght ?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And you r epai d i t each t i me?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And each t i me t he t r ansact i on i nvol ved an exor bi t ant r at e

13 of i nt er est , r i ght ?

14 A. I t was usual l y t he same amount of i nt er est .

15 Q. Now, woul d you say t hat t he si x t i mes t hat you bor r owed

16 money f r omhi mt hey pr et t y much had - - you wer e pr et t y much

17 t he same ki nd of consi st ent t r ansact i on, r i ght ?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And t he i nt er est r at e was t he same?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And you made weekl y payment s?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And when you bor r owed money f r omhi mdi d you see your sel f

24 as an associ at e of or gani zed cr i me?

25 A. No.


MARSHA DI AMOND, C. S. R. , OFFI CI AL COURT REPORTER


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1 Q. When you bor r owed money f r omSamdi d you see your sel f as

2 a member of or gani zed cr i me?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Al l r i ght .

5 Now, you sai d t hat each t i me your l oanshar k

6 t r ansact i on f ol l owed a par t i cul ar pat t er n, r i ght ?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And each t i me t her e was a l oan amount , r i ght ?

9 A. Wel l , i t depended on what I bor r owed.

10 MS: WALSH: May I , Your Honor ?

11 THE COURT: Yes, of cour se.

12 Mr . SMI TH: Can I have t he wi t ness come down so he can

13 - -

14 THE COURT: Yes. I f you want t o move, Mr . Lemol e, you

15 may do so.

16 ( Wi t ness compl i ed. )

17 Q. Ther e was a l ar ge amount ?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Ther e was al so an i nt er est r at e?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you know t he i nt er est r at es by any ot her t er m?

22 A. No.

23 Q. What about vi g V- I - G or j ui ce or poi nt s?

24 A. Poi nt s. Poi nt s.

25 THE COURT: You ar e not a wi t ness, Mr . Smi t h, and you


MARSHA DI AMOND, C. S. R. , OFFI CI AL COURT REPORTER


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1 ar e wr i t i ng t hi ngs down her e t hat t he wi t ness i s not sayi ng,

2 so I amgoi ng t o ask you t o abandon t hat appr oach.

3 Mr . SMI TH: No, Your Honor , he sai d poi nt s. I am

4 wr i t i ng poi nt s.

5 THE COURT: The poi nt i s t he wi t ness i s on t he st and

6 t o t est i f y, t he r epor t er i s t o t ake i t down. We have no need

7 of t hi s. Let us move on.

8 Q. You al so had a payment schedul e, r i ght , t hat you had t o

9 make your payment s?

10 A. I don' t under st and what you' r e t r yi ng t o - -

11 Q. You bor r owed money f r omSam?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. I t was a par t i cul ar r at e of i nt er est ?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You ar e r equi r ed t o pay i t back?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. He t ol d you when you had t o pay i t back?

18 A. When? I f he gave t he money on a Monday, next Monday I

19 woul d gi ve hi mt he i nt er est and any pr i nci pl e t hat I was abl e

20 t o gi ve hi mback.

21 Q. And i t was usual l y on a weekl y basi s, r i ght ?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. But he was t he one t hat det er mi ned when you had t o pay,

24 r i ght ?

25 A. Wel l , i t was an under st andi ng i f he gave me t he money on


MARSHA DI AMOND, C. S. R. , OFFI CI AL COURT REPORTER


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1 a Monday or a Tuesday, what ever day he gave i t t o me, a week

2 l at er on t hat same day I woul d gi ve hi mt he i nt er est pl us

3 what ever pr i nci pl e I was abl e t o pay back.

4 Q. Di d you know t he r educt i on of pr i nci pl e, what t hat was

5 cal l ed?

6 I s t hat cal l ed a knock- down?

7 A. No. I j ust - - what ever i nt er est I pai d, i f I gave money

8 t owar ds t he pr i nci pl e I woul d deduct t hat and t hen r ecomput e

9 t he i nt er est .

10 Q. Now, you kept r ecor ds, I t hi nk you r ef er r ed t o 1. 9? Do

11 you have 1. 9 i n f r ont of you, Exhi bi t 1. 9?

12 A. No, I have - -

13 Q. What i s t hat document ( handi ng) ?

14 A. Thi s i s a l edger sheet t hat has my handwr i t i ng on i t and

15 Bi l l Cut ol a' s on i t .

16 Q. I s t hat a l edger - - does t hat l edger sheet r ef l ect your

17 l oanshar k payment s t o Bi l l Cut ol o?

18 A. Yes, some of t hem, yes.

19 Q. And i n f act , t her e i s an ent r y t hat says hal f , one hal f ?

20 A. Yes, on t he t op. Ri ght .

21 Q. Does t hat ent r y r ef l ect t he i nt er est payment t hat you

22 made f or t he l oanshar k?

23 A. The i nt er est on t hi s par t of t he l oan, yes.

24 Q. Now, when di d you st ar t bor r owi ng money f r omCut ol a?

25 A. Ear l y 90s.


MARSHA DI AMOND, C. S. R. , OFFI CI AL COURT REPORTER


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1 Q. Now, di d he make you awar e t hat he was somehow i nvol ved

2 - - associ at ed wi t h or gani zed cr i me?

3 A. I - - I - - I knew i t f r omyear s bef or e.

4 Q. Di d you f eel t hat i f you di dn' t r epay t he money t o

5 Bi l l Cut ol o somehow har mwoul d come t o you?

6 MR. LEMOLE: Obj ect i on.

7 THE COURT: No. I ' l l al l ow i t .

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. I n f act , you wer e af r ai d of Bi l l Cut ol o, r i ght ?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. I n f act , even af t er your agr eement wi t h hi mand you came

12 t o an under st andi ng wi t h hi m, he changed t he t er ms of t he

13 agr eement , r i ght ?

14 A. Yes, he t r i ed t o change i t , yes.

15 Q. Wel l , di dn' t he act ual l y change i t ?

16 A. Wel l , I sai d he t r i ed t o change i t .

17 Q. Di dn' t you i ncr ease your payment s t o hi m?

18 A. Yes, I i ncr eased t he payment s, yes.

19 Q. At hi s r equest , r i ght ?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And i n f act , he t hr eat ened you wi t h deat h i f you di dn' t

22 make t hose payment s, r i ght ?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And t hi s was what , December or - -

25 A. December .


MARSHA DI AMOND, C. S. R. , OFFI CI AL COURT REPORTER


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1 Q. New Year ' s Eve about 1997?

2 A. About December 1997.

3 Q. Di d you vi ew your sel f as a par t ner of Bi l l Cut ol o?

4 A. No, I was never a par t ner .

5 Q. Di d you vi ew your sel f as a member of t he Col ombo cr i me

6 f ami l y?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Di d you vi ew your sel f as an associ at e of t he Col ombo

9 cr i me f ami l y?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Di d you vi ew your sel f as a havi ng anyt hi ng t o do - - as a

12 par t i ci pant i n t he cr i mes of t he Col ombo cr i me f ami l y?

13 MR. LEMOLE: Obj ect i on.

14 THE COURT: Over r ul ed.

15 A. Coul d you - -

16 Mr . SMI TH: May I ask t o have t he r ecor d r ead back?

17 THE COURT: Yes.

18 ( Recor d r ead. )

19 A. No, I had not hi ng t o do woul d i t .

20 Q. I n f act , you vi ewed your sel f as a vi ct i mof Bi l l Cut ol o,

21 r i ght ?

22 THE COURT: Over r ul ed.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. I n f act , he l oaned money t o you at on or about st andar d

25 r at es of i nt er est , r i ght ?


MARSHA DI AMOND, C. S. R. , OFFI CI AL COURT REPORTER


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Sal er no - r ecr oss/ Smi t h

1 A. Wel l , t he onl y deal I had wi t h hi mwas I f el t was f ai r

2 r at e f or my ci r cumst ances at t he t i me because t he hal f poi nt ,

3 when you f i gur e i t out , on t he $965, 000 was r oughl y 13 per cent

4 i nt er est , and t her e ar e compani es out t her e t hat l end out

5 money at hi gher r at es. And al so, t ake what t hey cal l an

6 equi t y ki cker i n your deal , and t hi s was a si mi l ar si t uat i on

7 wher e I bor r owed t he money, and par t of my deal was t o gi ve

8 hi mt en per cent of t he net pr of i t s af t er t he l oan was pai d

9 of f .

10 Q. Do any of t he compani es t hat l end money out wi t h a

11 ki cker , do t hey have anyone t hat ' s i nvol ved wi t h or gani zed

12 cr i me?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Any of t hemt hr eat en you wi t h deat h - -

15 A. No.

16 Q. - - i f you don' t pay t he money?

17 A. No.

18 Q. So t hat i s t he di f f er ence bet ween Bi l l Cut ol o and t hose

19 ki nds of compani es, r i ght ?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. So i t must have been sur pr i si ng t o you when you wer e

22 act ual l y t ol d t hat you wer e bei ng char ged wi t h r acket eer i ng,

23 r i ght ?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. I n f act , someone was t el l i ng you t hat you wer e a


MARSHA DI AMOND, C. S. R. , OFFI CI AL COURT REPORTER


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1 par t i ci pant wi t h t he Col ombo cr i me f ami l y i n or gani zed cr i me,

2 r i ght ?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And you di dn' t bel i eve t hat t o be t r ue at al l , r i ght ?

5 A. Ri ght , yes.

6 Q. You st i l l don' t bel i eve t hat t o be t r ue t oday, r i ght ?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And once agai n, you see your sel f as a vi ct i m, r i ght ?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, your l awyer , di d he or she expl ai n t o you wher e you

11 went wr ong, si r ?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. I n f act , di d you have an under st andi ng t hat you wer e

14 act ual l y bor r owi ng money f r omBi l l Cut ol o and Samat

15 exor bi t ant r at es of i nt er est di d not make you a par t i ci pant i n

16 t he cr i mes of t he Col ombo cr i me f ami l y, di dn' t you?

17 MR. LEMOLE: Obj ect i on.

18 THE COURT: Sust ai ned.

19 Q. Of cour se, i t was expl ai ned t o you t hat par t of wher e you

20 went wr ong i n t er ms of l aunder i ng money was t o act ual l y gi ve

21 Bi l l Cut ol a a no- show j ob?

22 MR. LEMOLE: Obj ect i on.

23 THE COURT: Sust ai ned as t o f or m.

24 Q. You pl ed gui l t y t o money l aunder i ng, r i ght ?

25 A. Yes.


MARSHA DI AMOND, C. S. R. , OFFI CI AL COURT REPORTER


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1 Q. And you had t o admi t t o t he Cour t what i t i s t hat you di d

2 wr ong, r i ght ?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And par t of what you admi t t ed was t o al l owi ng Bi l l Cut ol o

5 t o be pai d f r omt he payr ol l of Embassy Ter r ace f or a no- show

6 j ob, di d you admi t t o t hat ?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Di d you admi t t o payi ng hi s wi f e money f or what was

9 essent i al l y a no- show j ob?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Di d you admi t t o wr i t i ng a check t o Hof f man Koos f or

12 f ur ni t ur e t hat was goi ng t o Bi l l Cut ol o' s house?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Di d you admi t t o wr i t i ng t wo checks f or $50, 000 each t hat

15 went t o t he const r uct i on of Bi l l Cut ol o' s house?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And t hat i s what you di d wr ong as i t r el at es t o t he money

18 l aunder i ng, r i ght ?

19 A. That , pl us t aki ng t he money f r omBi l l knowi ng t hat he got

20 i t f r omor gani zed cr i me sour ce, you know, or gani zed cr i me

21 act i vi t y, al so.

22 MR. LEMOLE: Obj ect i on.

23 THE COURT: Over r ul ed.

24 Q. But you under st and t he essence of what you di d wr ong was

25 t o t r y and conceal t hat i t came f r omBi l l , t hose act i vi t i es,


MARSHA DI AMOND, C. S. R. , OFFI CI AL COURT REPORTER


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1 r i ght ?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, you r ef er t o a conver sat i on you had wi t h

4 Ant hony Sai nat o, r i ght ?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You sai d t hat he was compl ai ni ng about Bi l l Cut ol o?

7 A. Yes, we bot h wer e.

8 Q. You at t he t i me you had t hi s conver sat i on wi t h hi mhad an

9 under st andi ng of what he meant , r i ght ?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And i n f act , your under st andi ng was t hat he had bor r owed

12 money f r omBi l l Cut ol o, r i ght ?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And you knew Bi l l Cut ol o t o be a l oanshar k, r i ght ?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And he was compl ai ni ng about Bi l l Cut ol o' s l oanshar ki ng

17 act i vi t y as i t r el at ed t o hi m, r i ght ?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. He wasn' t compl ai ni ng about anyt hi ng el se, was he?

20 A. Wel l , about how Bi l l was, you know, t r yi ng t o al ways be

21 on t op of hi mal l t he t i me.

22 Q. Ri ght . Tr yi ng t o change a deal ver y much l i ke he changed

23 i t wi t h you, r i ght ?

24 A. Change t he deal and i mpose upon hi s busi ness, r unni ng of

25 hi s busi ness.


MARSHA DI AMOND, C. S. R. , OFFI CI AL COURT REPORTER


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1 Q. Now, you met wi t h Ant hony Sai nat o sever al t i mes, r i ght ,

2 and you got t o know hi m?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And di d you t hi nk he was t he ki nd of guy t hat coul d st and

5 up t o Bi l l Cut ol o?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Wer e you t he t ype of guy t hat coul d st and up t o

8 Bi l l Cut ol o?

9 A. No.

10 Q. I n f act , you r eal l y hat ed hi m, di dn' t you?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And i n f act , your own pl ace of busi ness, you di dn' t even

13 want t o go i nt o t hat pl ace of busi ness i f you knew Bi l l Cut ol o

14 was t her e, r i ght ?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. I n f act , at one poi nt you even t hought about ki l l i ng hi m,

17 r i ght ?

18 A. The t hought passed my mi nd but I coul dn' t cont empl at e

19 doi ng somet hi ng l i ke t hat .

20 Mr . SMI TH: Can I have one mi nut e pl ease, Your Honor ?

21 THE COURT: Yes.

22 MR. SMI TH: Wi t h t he Cour t ' s per mi ssi on I wi l l

23 appr oach t he wi t ness.

24 Q. Si r , I amshowi ng you Gover nment Exhi bi t 7. 2. You may

25 t ake a l ook at i t .


MARSHA DI AMOND, C. S. R. , OFFI CI AL COURT REPORTER


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1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Does your name appear anywher e on t hat l i st ?

3 A. I don' t see my name on t hi s one, no.

4 Q. And l ook at 7. 2 agai n, and t el l me i f Ant hony Sai nat o' s

5 name appear s on t hat l i st ?

6 A. No, I don' t see i t .

7 Q. Look at 7. 3 and t el l me i f your name or Ant hony Sai nat o' s

8 name appear s on 7. 3?

9 A. No, I don' t see t he name on t hi s page.

10 Q. And l ook now on 7. 4. See i f your name or

11 Ant hony Sai nat o' s name appear s on 7. 4.

12 A. No, I don' t see i t ei t her .

13 Q. Now, si r , you pl ed gui l t y t o r acket eer i ng, di d you pl ead

14 gui l t y t o r acket eer i ng?

15 A. Loanshar k.

16 Q. Okay, l oanshar ki ng. You wer e char ged i n a r acket eer i ng

17 i ndi ct ment ?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Based on your conver sat i ons wi t h your l awyer you had an

20 under st andi ng as t o your maxi mumexposur e, r i ght ?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And you wer e t ol d t hat you wer e f aci ng 20 year s i n pr i son

23 f or r acket eer i ng, r i ght ?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. But as you si t her e t oday you st i l l don' t vi ew your sel f


MARSHA DI AMOND, C. S. R. , OFFI CI AL COURT REPORTER


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1 as a member of t he Col ombo cr i me f ami l y, r i ght ?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. So as you si t her e t oday you don' t vi ew your sel f as an

4 associ at e of t he Col ombo cr i me f ami l y, r i ght ?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And as you si t her e t oday you don' t vi ew your sel f as a

7 par t i ci pant i n t he cr i mes of t he Col ombo cr i me f ami l y, r i ght ?

8 A. Yes, t o a cer t ai n ext ent , yes.

9 Q. And you vi ew your sel f as a vi ct i m, r i ght ?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And as f ar as you know, t he onl y t hi ng t hat you know

12 about Ant hony Sai nat o was, i n f act , he was a vi ct i mof

13 Bi l l Cut ol o' s l oanshar ki ng, r i ght ?

14 A. That ' s what I under st and, yes.

15 Mr . SMI TH: Thank you, si r .

16 THE COURT: Redi r ect .